# Teacher Compensation



## DGS49

When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.

Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.

At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.

Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.

In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.

Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.

And now we come to TEACHERS.

In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).

But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.

But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).

So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."

Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.


----------



## Dekster

I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.


----------



## rightwinger

It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for

These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth


----------



## rightwinger

States like West Virginia, Oklahoma and Arizona are notorious for poor teacher pay
Take it or leave it results in the best candidates seeking better professions

Educational results suffer


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth



There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> States like West Virginia, Oklahoma and Arizona are notorious for poor teacher pay
> Take it or leave it results in the best candidates seeking better professions
> 
> Educational results suffer



West Virginia is a poor state.  In a lot of these places there isn't a better profession.  Some of the counties only have part-time judges & prosecutors and might only have 1 of each.


----------



## frigidweirdo

DGS49 said:


> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.



People think teaching is something, and then they do it, they realize it's not what they thought it was, it's harder. 

Yeah, people who have never taught get all arrogant about how easy it is. But they don't actually know what it entails. 

How much is a teacher worth? Those who don't value education don't value teachers and don't understand what goes on.


----------



## rightwinger

Dekster said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
Click to expand...

Again, you get what you pay for

If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options


----------



## saveliberty

DGS49 said:


> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.



Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes.  So you end up with teachers making the following decision.  Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector.  I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession.  One stayed and one left.  The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.  

I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it.  That ship sailed a few weeks ago.


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
Click to expand...


Ever hear of volunteer fire departments?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

DGS49 said:


> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  *Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).*
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available,* that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  *Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> *So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit. * *As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."*
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  *If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.*  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  *The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.*



Some good points, but further proof  (in red text) that when it comes to education, most Americans get more correct information from a cereal box.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> .....  Well, there's June, July, and August......




????????????????


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Dekster said:


> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.



If we all did that, what would the schools do?  They will close, like the schools did in KY when the state legislature stabbed us in the back last week!


----------



## MaryAnne11

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever hear of volunteer fire departments?
Click to expand...



I have. My whole family was on one, and we are lifetime members.

But except in Rural areas they do not exist any more.

You have no idea how much you enjoy giving to your Community. But you have to be dedicated.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Unkotare said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....  Well, there's June, July, and August......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ????????????????
Click to expand...


 Most of those Teachers work at other jobs,or continue their Education during the Summer months. I do not know one that takes a 3  month vacation.


----------



## MaryAnne11

saveliberty said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes.  So you end up with teachers making the following decision.  Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector.  I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession.  One stayed and one left.  The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.
> 
> I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it.  That ship sailed a few weeks ago.
Click to expand...


The sheer anger here on this board is down right stupid.

Envy and greed seem to rule.


----------



## rightwinger

The OP thinks that because he can offer take it or leave it salaries for women who stock his shelves....we should do the same with those who educate our children


----------



## Cellblock2429

DGS49 said:


> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.


/----/ And why my property taxes are near $10,000 a year (Schools are funded via property tax) MAny districts are Union Free but not all.
2016-2017 teacher and administrator pay
*2016-2017 teacher and administrator pay*
*Nearly 250,000 teachers and administrators statewide, excluding New York City, were paid $15,852,056,522.93 during the 2016-2017 school year.*

Nearly 250,000 teachers and administrators statewide, excluding in New York City, were paid $15,852,056,522.93 during the 2016-2017 school year, according to data reported to the New York State Teachers Retirement System obtained under the state's Freedom of Information Act. That amounts to an average of $64,512.95 per member of the retirement system, an increase of 3.7 percent from the year before.

Here are the unaudited details available to the state as of Sept. 1, 2017; those records may be updated as employers report additional data or amend prior reporting records. Here are links to comparable data for teachers and administrators for 2015-2016 and 2014-2015. This database was posted on Sept. 8, 2017.
*Name* *Start Date* *Last Known Employer* *Amount*
Abulafia, Ovadia 11/17/1997 SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn $563,870.51
Lucchesi, Michael P 5/2/1994 SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn $529,440.01
Lazzaro, Douglas R 7/11/2001 SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn $477,340.43
Brown, Joyce F 9/1/1968 Fashion Institute of Technology $420,576.28
Fallon, Kelly A 9/1/1984 Half Hollow Hills Central Schools $397,933.03
Takeuchi, Esther S 9/1/2007 SUNY at Stony Brook $394,032.02
Tuttle, Stephen P 10/17/2011 Fashion Institute of Technology $378,294.52
Hunderfund, Anna F 9/3/1974 Locust Valley Central Schools $373,664.90
Wool, Louis N 9/1/1981 Harrison Central Schools $371,060.85
Grishman, Henry L 9/1/1967 Jericho Union Free Schools $365,354.02
Kersich, Peter J 9/1/1986 William Floyd Union Free Schools $351,627.40
Goodman, Amy J 12/14/1981 Greenburgh-Graham Union Free Schools $345,132.65


----------



## initforme

Oklahoma teachers never got a raise since 2007.  Shame on oklahoma.  Not even a 1 percent raise?   I support them in whatever they decide to do.  What a backward place.  Even the teacher of the year gotu p and left that time warp state.  A good teacher is thought of as trash in america.  People wanr the best education without paying for it.  A poor philosophy.  Immoral.


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.



So...your plan is to dumb down children even more with poorly trained teachers, did you think this through?


----------



## saveliberty

rightwinger said:


> The OP thinks that because he can offer take it or leave it salaries for women who stock his shelves....we should do the same with those who educate our children



Also seems to be under the impression that a good teacher doesn't take their work home for several hours in the evening.  Lesson plans, grading, helping out with sports programs, music or plays....


----------



## initforme

If teaching is something that the op thinks is too highly paid already then he should become one.


----------



## bodecea

Dekster said:


> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.


Actually, the majority do that...thus such a high turnover rate within the first five years and a teacher shortage.


----------



## rightwinger

bodecea said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the majority do that...thus such a high turnover rate within the first five years and a teacher shortage.
Click to expand...

We get the educational system we deserve

We even have Betsy DeVos looking after it


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Cellblock2429 said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> /----/ And why my property taxes are near $10,000 a year (Schools are funded via property tax) MAny districts are Union Free but not all.
> 2016-2017 teacher and administrator pay
> *2016-2017 teacher and administrator pay*
> *Nearly 250,000 teachers and administrators statewide, excluding New York City, were paid $15,852,056,522.93 during the 2016-2017 school year.*
> 
> Nearly 250,000 teachers and administrators statewide, excluding in New York City, were paid $15,852,056,522.93 during the 2016-2017 school year, according to data reported to the New York State Teachers Retirement System obtained under the state's Freedom of Information Act. That amounts to an average of $64,512.95 per member of the retirement system, an increase of 3.7 percent from the year before.
> 
> Here are the unaudited details available to the state as of Sept. 1, 2017; those records may be updated as employers report additional data or amend prior reporting records. Here are links to comparable data for teachers and administrators for 2015-2016 and 2014-2015. This database was posted on Sept. 8, 2017.
> *Name* *Start Date* *Last Known Employer* *Amount*
> Abulafia, Ovadia 11/17/1997 SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn $563,870.51
> Lucchesi, Michael P 5/2/1994 SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn $529,440.01
> Lazzaro, Douglas R 7/11/2001 SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn $477,340.43
> Brown, Joyce F 9/1/1968 Fashion Institute of Technology $420,576.28
> Fallon, Kelly A 9/1/1984 Half Hollow Hills Central Schools $397,933.03
> Takeuchi, Esther S 9/1/2007 SUNY at Stony Brook $394,032.02
> Tuttle, Stephen P 10/17/2011 Fashion Institute of Technology $378,294.52
> Hunderfund, Anna F 9/3/1974 Locust Valley Central Schools $373,664.90
> Wool, Louis N 9/1/1981 Harrison Central Schools $371,060.85
> Grishman, Henry L 9/1/1967 Jericho Union Free Schools $365,354.02
> Kersich, Peter J 9/1/1986 William Floyd Union Free Schools $351,627.40
> Goodman, Amy J 12/14/1981 Greenburgh-Graham Union Free Schools $345,132.65
Click to expand...


You are the dumbass living in the People's Republic of New York!  No sympathy here pal!


----------



## Anathema

Both of my parents were teachers for part of their work lives. Both of them went into the field understanding they would not be getting rich doing so. It was a calling for them. One they were both loathe to leave, but did so. Though neither decision was about money. 

Teachers, or at least the ones who have done some research before they chose the profession, know what they're getting into. 

They're also Unionized employees. If you didn't like the contract, you shouldn't have voted for it.  It it takes actual balls to walk a picket line when you're not getting paid. 

If I had any empathy I would probably be somewhat sympathetic to some of these teachers. However, the fact that they continue to go above and beyond, and cut their own proverbial noses off by doing so, tells me most of them don't have the guts to do what's necessary to fix the problems.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Both of my parents were teachers for part of their work lives. Both of them went into the field understanding they would not be getting rich doing so. It was a calling for them. One they were both loathe to leave, but did so. Though neither decision was about money.
> 
> Teachers, or at least the ones who have done some research before they chose the profession, know what they're getting into.
> 
> They're also Unionized employees. If you didn't like the contract, you shouldn't have voted for it.  It it takes actual balls to walk a picket line when you're not getting paid.
> 
> If I had any empathy I would probably be somewhat sympathetic to some of these teachers. However, the fact that they continue to go above and beyond, and cut their own proverbial noses off by doing so, tells me most of them don't have the guts to do what's necessary to fix the problems.



More ignorance?

Teachers are not all unionized.  Being a union member before you get tenure is stupid because they will not represent you.

Strikes are illegal in most locations.

Tell me about this supposed power that teachers have when they can not strike?

Catch a clue, dumbass!


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Teachers are not all unionized.  Being a union member before you get tenure is stupid because they will not represent you.
> 
> Strikes are illegal in most locations.
> 
> Tell me about this supposed power that teachers have when they can not strike?!



Any non-unionized teacher is a fool, who deserves exactly what they get. 

The rest of your post is simply a matter of poorly negotiated contracts. Especially the inability to strike. I work in a Federslly regulated industry far more important than teaching and we retain our right to strike.


----------



## rightwinger

Conservatives do not support paying teachers more unless they are paying them to carry guns


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are not all unionized.  Being a union member before you get tenure is stupid because they will not represent you.
> 
> Strikes are illegal in most locations.
> 
> Tell me about this supposed power that teachers have when they can not strike?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any non-unionized teacher is a fool, who deserves exactly what they get.
> 
> The rest of your post is simply a matter of poorly negotiated contracts. Especially the inability to strike. I work in a Federslly regulated industry far more important than teaching and we retain our right to strike.
Click to expand...


Good for you dumbass!  You are not subject to state governments!  Get an education about education, dumbass!

Your posts are misguided rantings.  That is all!


----------



## saveliberty

rightwinger said:


> Conservatives do not support paying teachers more unless they are paying them to carry guns



I am right here...hello.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.



What makes you think they aren't?

I have a Master's degree and get paid more because of it.


----------



## Cellblock2429

rightwinger said:


> Conservatives do not support paying teachers more unless they are paying them to carry guns


/----/ ahhhhh, a strawman argument for Easter Sunday.


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Good for you dumbass!  You are not subject to state governments!  Get an education about education, dumbass!



We're also regulated at the Stste level. I can guarantee you that we would not allow any clause reducing our ability to righteously strike when necessary.

The only education I need about the US public education system is that no child of mine would ever interact with it.


----------



## Cellblock2429

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think they aren't?
> 
> I have a Master's degree and get paid more because of it.
Click to expand...

/----/ If I get a Masters degree in Women Studies at the State Agricultural and Tech College near me, can I get a raise at McDonalds?  Maybe a promotion to Head Fry Boy?


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think they aren't?
> 
> I have a Master's degree and get paid more because of it.
Click to expand...

Well, if they are, then they should be compensated in kind. If they are not then they should not. This is not rocket surgery. Who would you rather take a biology course from? An English lit grad or a biologist?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you dumbass!  You are not subject to state governments!  Get an education about education, dumbass!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're also regulated at the Stste level. I can guarantee you that we would not allow any clause reducing our ability to righteously strike when necessary.
Click to expand...


 Strikes were outlawed decades ago. Our state legislature just financially raped every teacher by passing a pension reform bill that will cost every retiree dearly. We're they listening then like they did when they outlawed strikes?  Yes, it is a law not a fucking contract item.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think they aren't?
> 
> I have a Master's degree and get paid more because of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, if they are, then they should be compensated in kind. If they are not then they should not. This is not rocket surgery. Who would you rather take a biology course from? An English lit grad or a biologist?
Click to expand...


Did you read my post?

Teachers are certified in the subject they teach about 99 percent of the time. You can be certified without having the degree. I teach math but took my classwork at 2 different schools and I know the subject better than those with a degree hang on the wall. I do have a degree in history and masters in education.


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Strikes were outlawed decades ago.....  Yes, it is a law not a fucking contract item.



Let me guess, a law passed by legislators your stupid union supported? Assuming so, the teachers got what they deserve.


----------



## HenryBHough

Recalling that the topic of this thread was "Teacher Compensation":

Let me propose that, given the way our schools operate these days, teachers ought NOT to be compensated.  Rather they should consider their effort to be voluntary donations to the Socialist aimd of The Democrat Party.  The Party, of course, should address all those folks needs.  Food.  Drink.  Housing.  Medical care.  With all that addressed there is no need for any wage at all!  Our children would be none the worse off and, with the lower taxes that surely would follow, parents would be more able to afford to send any offspring for they want a bright future to a private school rather than the local public indoctrination center.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro

rightwinger said:


> States like West Virginia, Oklahoma and Arizona are notorious for poor teacher pay
> Take it or leave it results in the best candidates seeking better professions
> 
> Educational results suffer



Nevada pay for teachers is shit also.  They need to spend less money on administration and more on the teachers in the classroom.


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think they aren't?
> 
> I have a Master's degree and get paid more because of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, if they are, then they should be compensated in kind. If they are not then they should not. This is not rocket surgery. Who would you rather take a biology course from? An English lit grad or a biologist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you read my post?
> 
> Teachers are certified in the subject they teach about 99 percent of the time. You can be certified without having the degree. I teach math but took my classwork at 2 different schools and I know the subject better than those with a degree hang on the wall. I do have a degree in history and masters in education.
Click to expand...

Did you not comprehend my post? There is a distinct difference between certification to instruct a subject and formal learning in that subject. Do you dispute the depth of knowledge that one would gain? Don't you feel that teachers who are FORMALLY trained in maths, biology et al. should be better compensated to encourage entrants FROM those fields?
You teaching math with a history degree is a prime example of the NORM.


----------



## initforme

Some of you are whining about a person making 40 some thousand per year...chump change...poverty pay.


----------



## Anathema

initforme said:


> Some of you are whining about a person making 40 some thousand per year...chump change...poverty pay.



Then they shouldn't have taken the job. Their problem, not mine.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are not all unionized.  Being a union member before you get tenure is stupid because they will not represent you.
> 
> Strikes are illegal in most locations.
> 
> Tell me about this supposed power that teachers have when they can not strike?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any non-unionized teacher is a fool, who deserves exactly what they get.
> 
> The rest of your post is simply a matter of poorly negotiated contracts. Especially the inability to strike. I work in a Federslly regulated industry far more important than teaching and we retain our right to strike.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for you dumbass!  You are not subject to state governments!  Get an education about education, dumbass!
> 
> Your posts are misguided rantings.  That is all!
Click to expand...


You vote for those who make the decisions in your State.

But those who teach our Children are the future of those same Children’s
That will take over our Country. Nothing is more Importatnt.


Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you dumbass!  You are not subject to state governments!  Get an education about education, dumbass!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're also regulated at the Stste level. I can guarantee you that we would not allow any clause reducing our ability to righteously strike when necessary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Strikes were outlawed decades ago. Our state legislature just financially raped every teacher by passing a pension reform bill that will cost every retiree dearly. We're they listening then like they did when they outlawed strikes?  Yes, it is a law not a fucking contract item.
Click to expand...



Reminder. Kasich.

We killed him at the Ballot box. His remark! “ The people have spoken!” 1.3 Million signatures and an overwhelming rejecton at the Voting booth.

Time to Talk About John Kasich's Biggest Failure as Ohio Governor: Union Reform


----------



## rightwinger

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.


That along with results 
I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
D students become C students
C students become B students
B students become A students


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
Click to expand...


Yet they seldom do....


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever hear of volunteer fire departments?
Click to expand...


Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.


----------



## Dekster

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we all did that, what would the schools do?  They will close, like the schools did in KY when the state legislature stabbed us in the back last week!
Click to expand...


Home school.  one parent will have to stay home which will create a labor shortage which will drive up wages and make us all so rich we don't need no stinking education.


----------



## Dekster

MaryAnne11 said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever hear of volunteer fire departments?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have. My whole family was on one, and we are lifetime members.
> 
> But except in Rural areas they do not exist any more.
> 
> You have no idea how much you enjoy giving to your Community. But you have to be dedicated.
Click to expand...


There are still some out in the hinderlands of our county.  My brother did it for awhile.  They are not allowed to make entry into a burning structure unless there is a 100% confirmed live person in it.  The EMT's keep threatening to quit unless they get paid what the paid ambulance service people get.  The list goes on and on and on as to why they are a bad idea.


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...your plan is to dumb down children even more with poorly trained teachers, did you think this through?
Click to expand...


Replace the teacher with robots if you are that concerned.  That is all they are anyway teaching the test, no toleranceing every student because they are incapable of maintaining discipline.  At least the robots can zap their asses


----------



## Dekster

bodecea said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the majority do that...thus such a high turnover rate within the first five years and a teacher shortage.
Click to expand...


Baby boomers are retiring.


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the majority do that...thus such a high turnover rate within the first five years and a teacher shortage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We get the educational system we deserve
> 
> We even have Betsy DeVos looking after it
Click to expand...


We have an over administered education system, but we are, in fact, becoming a society ruled by autocrats.  A left autocrat, a right autocrat....they are everywhere.


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

rightwinger said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
Click to expand...

That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest. 
Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
High school is just too easy, students say
What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Strikes were outlawed decades ago.....  Yes, it is a law not a fucking contract item.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess, a law passed by legislators your stupid union supported? Assuming so, the teachers got what they deserve.
Click to expand...


Since the law has been in force for decades and I wasn't a teacher in KY until 2007, what difference did it make?  We have  republican controlled legislature for now.  I may not be voting for their reelection.

I don't vote for Democrats usually, but a KY Democrat is better than most state's Republicans.


----------



## rightwinger

Dekster said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet they seldom do....
Click to expand...

Many do ....especially in math, science, computers


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet they seldom do....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many do ....especially in math, science, computers
Click to expand...


Then the problem is solved.  Let them go work in math and science and computers, but in the redneck part of our nation, they are going to have a hard time finding a job doing that in their field, so hope they didn't buy a house with a big fat mortgage that needs paying off.


----------



## rightwinger

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
Click to expand...

In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar

To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot

19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking

I think today’s students are more creative


----------



## rightwinger

Dekster said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet they seldom do....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many do ....especially in math, science, computers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then the problem is solved.  Let them go work in math and science and computers, but in the redneck part of our nation, they are going to have a hard time finding a job doing that in their field, so hope they didn't buy a house with a big fat mortgage that needs paying off.
Click to expand...

What happens to the students in those states who don’t have qualified teachers in math, science, computers or any other subject in demand in the private sector?


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
Click to expand...


Creativity and critical thinking are not always the same thing.  Need to write a critical analysis, just google it.  Somebody else has already done it for you.  Just change the wording.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think they aren't?
> 
> I have a Master's degree and get paid more because of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, if they are, then they should be compensated in kind. If they are not then they should not. This is not rocket surgery. Who would you rather take a biology course from? An English lit grad or a biologist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you read my post?
> 
> Teachers are certified in the subject they teach about 99 percent of the time. You can be certified without having the degree. I teach math but took my classwork at 2 different schools and I know the subject better than those with a degree hang on the wall. I do have a degree in history and masters in education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you not comprehend my post? There is a distinct difference between certification to instruct a subject and formal learning in that subject. Do you dispute the depth of knowledge that one would gain? Don't you feel that teachers who are FORMALLY trained in maths, biology et al. should be better compensated to encourage entrants FROM those fields?
> You teaching math with a history degree is a prime example of the NORM.
Click to expand...


Certification requires you be TESTED to verify you have the requisite knowledge to teach the course.

As I stated, I have all the requirements for a degree in math but I gained them at two different universities, so I have no degree from either one.  I am a better math teacher than most who have math education degrees and plain old math degrees.

Do you know why I can't get a regular  job as a math teacher with 21 years as an educator?  They do not want to pay me even the $50K salary I would get.  They would rather get someone out of college at $35K a year and keep them 4 years and discard them before they get tenure.

The high school where I normally substitute has a math position and chemistry position they cannot fill because the district is under a budget freeze because our state legislature is cutting the budget about 17%.  

Right now, I get paid $105 a day with zero benefits to cover a National Guardsman who was called up for a training deployment.  They will actually save thousands of dollars over the next 3 months by having me replace him.  He will make more drawing a Captain's pay than he did as a teacher by a long shot!


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Since the law has been in force for decades and I wasn't a teacher in KY until 2007, what difference did it make?



Then maybe you should have chosen a different profession  or a different state to be a teacher in.


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet they seldom do....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many do ....especially in math, science, computers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then the problem is solved.  Let them go work in math and science and computers, but in the redneck part of our nation, they are going to have a hard time finding a job doing that in their field, so hope they didn't buy a house with a big fat mortgage that needs paying off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the students in those states who don’t have qualified teachers in math, science, computers or any other subject in demand in the private sector?
Click to expand...



They go to college and learn what they need to know.  It isn't like a high school diploma means anything.  A 4 year degree barely means something.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you are whining about a person making 40 some thousand per year...chump change...poverty pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then they shouldn't have taken the job. Their problem, not mine.
Click to expand...


No, the problem is now we will not be getting the pay and pension that we were promised when we took the damn job!

Would you like it if your boss came in and said, I am taking away part of your pay and reducing your pension and there is not a damn thing you can do about it?  Also, if you retire before Medicare kicks in, you are on your own!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

MaryAnne11 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are not all unionized.  Being a union member before you get tenure is stupid because they will not represent you.
> 
> Strikes are illegal in most locations.
> 
> Tell me about this supposed power that teachers have when they can not strike?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any non-unionized teacher is a fool, who deserves exactly what they get.
> 
> The rest of your post is simply a matter of poorly negotiated contracts. Especially the inability to strike. I work in a Federslly regulated industry far more important than teaching and we retain our right to strike.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for you dumbass!  You are not subject to state governments!  Get an education about education, dumbass!
> 
> Your posts are misguided rantings.  That is all!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You vote for those who make the decisions in your State.
> 
> But those who teach our Children are the future of those same Children’s
> That will take over our Country. Nothing is more Importatnt.
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you dumbass!  You are not subject to state governments!  Get an education about education, dumbass!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We're also regulated at the Stste level. I can guarantee you that we would not allow any clause reducing our ability to righteously strike when necessary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Strikes were outlawed decades ago. Our state legislature just financially raped every teacher by passing a pension reform bill that will cost every retiree dearly. We're they listening then like they did when they outlawed strikes?  Yes, it is a law not a fucking contract item.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Reminder. Kasich.
> 
> We killed him at the Ballot box. His remark! “ The people have spoken!” 1.3 Million signatures and an overwhelming rejecton at the Voting booth.
> 
> Time to Talk About John Kasich's Biggest Failure as Ohio Governor: Union Reform
Click to expand...


No.  I vote for 3 people that make decisions in may state.  That is all.  I have a state rep, state senator and governor.  The last vote for our governor is one I will not make again.


----------



## rightwinger

Dekster said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Creativity and critical thinking are not always the same thing.  Need to write a critical analysis, just google it.  Somebody else has already done it for you.  Just change the wording.
Click to expand...


Agree

But students today have all the knowledge in the world available on their smartphone. They can communicate instantly with anyone on earth and are quite adept at emerging technology

A 19th century student may memorize more facts, but facts can be quickly googled


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Dekster said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we all did that, what would the schools do?  They will close, like the schools did in KY when the state legislature stabbed us in the back last week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Home school.  one parent will have to stay home which will create a labor shortage which will drive up wages and make us all so rich we don't need no stinking education.
Click to expand...


Go for it!  You want to raise another generation of idiots, go right ahead!

The biggest complaint from parents is that they don't understand math.  You want parents to teach them now?


----------



## rightwinger

Dekster said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet they seldom do....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many do ....especially in math, science, computers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then the problem is solved.  Let them go work in math and science and computers, but in the redneck part of our nation, they are going to have a hard time finding a job doing that in their field, so hope they didn't buy a house with a big fat mortgage that needs paying off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the students in those states who don’t have qualified teachers in math, science, computers or any other subject in demand in the private sector?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They go to college and learn what they need to know.  It isn't like a high school diploma means anything.  A 4 year degree barely means something.
Click to expand...

Bullshit


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the law has been in force for decades and I wasn't a teacher in KY until 2007, what difference did it make?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then maybe you should have chosen a different profession  or a different state to be a teacher in.
Click to expand...


I was naval officer until the Cold War ended.  I was already shafted once.

The problem is idiots like you don't realize that each and every state will be going through this.  Does West Virginia ring a bell?  I was a teacher in Florida and left there because the pay sucked!  You want me to change again?  I can't afford to move!


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> No, the problem is now we will not be getting the pay and pension that we were promised when we took the damn job!
> 
> Would you like it if your boss came in and said, I am taking away part of your pay and reducing your pension and there is not a damn thing you can do about it?  Also, if you retire before Medicare kicks in, you are on your own!



Seems like your Union isn't worth shit. 

I've been a Contractor, a Management employee and now for the last ten years as a Union employee. In fact I was one of the people who pushed for my Department to Unionize in 2007. 

Why? Specifically because my employer was seeking to screw us over and we weren't going to stand for that. The Union has preserved many of our benefits and gotten us many more than we've lost. In fact I got a Pension by joining the Union that I didn't have as a Management employee. 

I will not be accepting Medicare or Social Security for Moral reasons.


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet they seldom do....
> 
> 
> 
> Many do ....especially in math, science, computers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then the problem is solved.  Let them go work in math and science and computers, but in the redneck part of our nation, they are going to have a hard time finding a job doing that in their field, so hope they didn't buy a house with a big fat mortgage that needs paying off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the students in those states who don’t have qualified teachers in math, science, computers or any other subject in demand in the private sector?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They go to college and learn what they need to know.  It isn't like a high school diploma means anything.  A 4 year degree barely means something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bullshit
Click to expand...


I take it you never went to college then   American lit, same stuff.  Britist lit, same stuff.  Biology, chemistry, history, same stuff.


----------



## Dekster

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we all did that, what would the schools do?  They will close, like the schools did in KY when the state legislature stabbed us in the back last week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Home school.  one parent will have to stay home which will create a labor shortage which will drive up wages and make us all so rich we don't need no stinking education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go for it!  You want to raise another generation of idiots, go right ahead!
> 
> The biggest complaint from parents is that they don't understand math.  You want parents to teach them now?
Click to expand...


They couldn't do worse than this common core finger counting crap they are doing instead of having people just learn how to do things in their head.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, the problem is now we will not be getting the pay and pension that we were promised when we took the damn job!
> 
> Would you like it if your boss came in and said, I am taking away part of your pay and reducing your pension and there is not a damn thing you can do about it?  Also, if you retire before Medicare kicks in, you are on your own!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like your Union isn't worth shit.
> 
> I've been a Contractor, a Management employee and now for the last ten years as a Union employee. In fact I was one of the people who pushed for my Department to Unionize in 2007.
> 
> Why? Specifically because my employer was seeking to screw us over and we weren't going to stand for that. The Union has preserved many of our benefits and gotten us many more than we've lost. In fact I got a Pension by joining the Union that I didn't have as a Management employee.
> 
> I will not be accepting Medicare or Social Security for Moral reasons.
Click to expand...


You are just a pompous blowhard who has a bullshit answer for everything.  First, the unions are all powerful and then you claim they aren't worth shit?  Which is it, dumbass?  Make up your mind!

You are a waste of good oxygen!


----------



## TheOldSchool

rightwinger said:


> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth


Trump country


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Dekster said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we all did that, what would the schools do?  They will close, like the schools did in KY when the state legislature stabbed us in the back last week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Home school.  one parent will have to stay home which will create a labor shortage which will drive up wages and make us all so rich we don't need no stinking education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go for it!  You want to raise another generation of idiots, go right ahead!
> 
> The biggest complaint from parents is that they don't understand math.  You want parents to teach them now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They couldn't do worse than this common core finger counting crap they are doing instead of having people just learn how to do things in their head.
Click to expand...


Where did you get your degree in math and your education degree?  I must have missed it!  

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean the kids cannot handle it.  The methods actually help you do the math in your head as opposed to working it out on paper.  I'll bet you had no clue that was the case.


----------



## Dekster

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the law has been in force for decades and I wasn't a teacher in KY until 2007, what difference did it make?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then maybe you should have chosen a different profession  or a different state to be a teacher in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was naval officer until the Cold War ended.  I was already shafted once.
> 
> The problem is idiots like you don't realize that each and every state will be going through this.  Does West Virginia ring a bell?  I was a teacher in Florida and left there because the pay sucked!  You want me to change again?  I can't afford to move!
Click to expand...


Teach NJROTC instead of substitute teaching


----------



## Dekster

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we all did that, what would the schools do?  They will close, like the schools did in KY when the state legislature stabbed us in the back last week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Home school.  one parent will have to stay home which will create a labor shortage which will drive up wages and make us all so rich we don't need no stinking education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go for it!  You want to raise another generation of idiots, go right ahead!
> 
> The biggest complaint from parents is that they don't understand math.  You want parents to teach them now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They couldn't do worse than this common core finger counting crap they are doing instead of having people just learn how to do things in their head.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did you get your degree in math and your education degree?  I must have missed it!
> 
> Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean the kids cannot handle it.  The methods actually help you do the math in your head as opposed to working it out on paper.  I'll bet you had no clue that was the case.
Click to expand...


I know I stood up in class and had to recite my multiplication tables up to 13 squared in 4th grade without needing to use my fingers.  75% of common core seniors fail the math test. 63% fail the reading test.  2/3rds of CC seniors are rated as not ready for college.  If that is a success to you, you should have stayed in the military.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Dekster said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the law has been in force for decades and I wasn't a teacher in KY until 2007, what difference did it make?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then maybe you should have chosen a different profession  or a different state to be a teacher in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was naval officer until the Cold War ended.  I was already shafted once.
> 
> The problem is idiots like you don't realize that each and every state will be going through this.  Does West Virginia ring a bell?  I was a teacher in Florida and left there because the pay sucked!  You want me to change again?  I can't afford to move!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Teach NJROTC instead of substitute teaching
Click to expand...


You obviously have no clue as to the requirements to teach NJROTC do you?  Of course not!  You are just like Anathema and throwing crap into the game. I am not retired, so I cannot do it.

Besides, do you know how many NJROTC units are withing driving distance of my home?  They are all in a district where I would not work if you.  Most rural schools do not have enough students to support an ROTC and the waiting list is endless even if they do.

The district I am in has three high schools, and all have Army JROTC.  The district I live in has three high schools and they all have Army JROTC.  Think it might be because we are next to an Army post?


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> You are just a pompous blowhard who has a bullshit answer for everything.  First, the unions are all powerful and then you claim they aren't worth shit?  Which is it, dumbass?  Make up your mind!!



No. I said YOUR Union isn't worth shit, and from what you've said, I stand by that statement.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Dekster said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we all did that, what would the schools do?  They will close, like the schools did in KY when the state legislature stabbed us in the back last week!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home school.  one parent will have to stay home which will create a labor shortage which will drive up wages and make us all so rich we don't need no stinking education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go for it!  You want to raise another generation of idiots, go right ahead!
> 
> The biggest complaint from parents is that they don't understand math.  You want parents to teach them now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They couldn't do worse than this common core finger counting crap they are doing instead of having people just learn how to do things in their head.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did you get your degree in math and your education degree?  I must have missed it!
> 
> Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean the kids cannot handle it.  The methods actually help you do the math in your head as opposed to working it out on paper.  I'll bet you had no clue that was the case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know I stood up in class and had to recite my multiplication tables up to 13 squared in 4th grade without needing to use my fingers.  75% of common core seniors fail the math test. 63% fail the reading test.  2/3rds of CC seniors are rated as not ready for college.  If that is a success to you, you should have stayed in the military.
Click to expand...


 I knew if I kept you talking you would lie yourself into a corner.  There are no college core tests for seniors. Since Common Core was only used for about 5 years, how can you say that?  There are 13 years of school.  Each state chooses their own tests.  You are talking out of your ass yet again!  Don't try to bullshit me.  I know better!

Shut up and go play in traffic, dumbass!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are just a pompous blowhard who has a bullshit answer for everything.  First, the unions are all powerful and then you claim they aren't worth shit?  Which is it, dumbass?  Make up your mind!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. I said YOUR Union isn't worth shit, and from what you've said, I stand by that statement.
Click to expand...


Our union is limited by law as to what can be done, i.e. no strikes.  I know that is foreign concept to you!  Should we send the legislature a tersely written note?


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Our union is limited by law as to what can be done, i.e. no strikes.  I know that is foreign concept to you!  Should we send the legislature a tersely written note?



I understand the concept. What I don't understand is how someone intelligent and capable enough to be a US Naval Officer was stupid enough to join a Union that has no power, and take on a career path that doesn't pay enough for his liking.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our union is limited by law as to what can be done, i.e. no strikes.  I know that is foreign concept to you!  Should we send the legislature a tersely written note?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the concept. What I don't understand is how someone intelligent and capable enough to be a US Naval Officer was stupid enough to join a Union that has no power, and take on a career path that doesn't pay enough for his liking.
Click to expand...


I did not join the union, dumbass!

I don't mind the current pay I would receive.  I just don't want it cut even further!

Now do you understand dumbass?


----------



## Anathema

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> ]I did not join the union, dumbass?



Ah. So you're one of those fuckers who wants all the same benefits as your union co-workers but don't want to pay the dues. 

Please disregard anything nice I might have said to or about you and welcome to my Ignore List.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Anathema said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> ]I did not join the union, dumbass?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. So you're one of those fuckers who wants all the same benefits as your union co-workers but don't want to pay the dues.
> 
> Please disregard anything nice I might have said to or about you and welcome to my Ignore List.
Click to expand...


The unions do not get us any benefits dumbass!  I was union member when I was a tenured teacher.  If you are not tenured the union does NOTHING for you.  They don't deserve hundreds of dollars per year to say, "Please sir, may I have some more", and then being told to "Suck it up!.  Take it and be happy!"


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.



So you are wiling to pay for a service  you will probably never need, but let children use a broken educational system.  Please relocate to a third world shit hole ASAP, you will love it.


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> There are still some out in the hinderlands of our county.  My brother did it for awhile.  They are not allowed to make entry into a burning structure unless there is a 100% confirmed live person in it.  The EMT's keep threatening to quit unless they get paid what the paid ambulance service people get.  The list goes on and on and on as to why they are a bad idea.



Ours work great here, maybe its that lack of education that hinders your area.


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> Replace the teacher with robots if you are that concerned.  That is all they are anyway teaching the test, no toleranceing every student because they are incapable of maintaining discipline.  At least the robots can zap their asses



That is what a low cost low quality education system like you are willing to accept will get you.  Enjoy.


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Replace the teacher with robots if you are that concerned.  That is all they are anyway teaching the test, no toleranceing every student because they are incapable of maintaining discipline.  At least the robots can zap their asses
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what a low cost low quality education system like you are willing to accept will get you.  Enjoy.
Click to expand...


I am done with school and we need low skill labor.  I will enjoy.


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are still some out in the hinderlands of our county.  My brother did it for awhile.  They are not allowed to make entry into a burning structure unless there is a 100% confirmed live person in it.  The EMT's keep threatening to quit unless they get paid what the paid ambulance service people get.  The list goes on and on and on as to why they are a bad idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ours work great here, maybe its that lack of education that hinders your area.
Click to expand...


My high school had a 97% college acceptance rate.  Try another straw


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are wiling to pay for a service  you will probably never need, but let children use a broken educational system.  Please relocate to a third world shit hole ASAP, you will love it.
Click to expand...


I have called 911 a few times.  The first responders are here usually in about 2 minutes.  The only thing that has broken the educational system is standardization and treating it like a profession instead of a job.


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are still some out in the hinderlands of our county.  My brother did it for awhile.  They are not allowed to make entry into a burning structure unless there is a 100% confirmed live person in it.  The EMT's keep threatening to quit unless they get paid what the paid ambulance service people get.  The list goes on and on and on as to why they are a bad idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ours work great here, maybe its that lack of education that hinders your area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My high school had a 97% college acceptance rate.  Try another straw
Click to expand...


Sure it did, there is no where in the US that has a 3% dropout rate.


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are wiling to pay for a service  you will probably never need, but let children use a broken educational system.  Please relocate to a third world shit hole ASAP, you will love it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have called 911 a few times.  The first responders are here usually in about 2 minutes.  The only thing that has broken the educational system is standardization and treating it like a profession instead of a job.
Click to expand...


Why would you need 911?  Can't imagine you have crime or medical problems or accidents with such highly educated folk about.


----------



## rightwinger

Dekster said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are wiling to pay for a service  you will probably never need, but let children use a broken educational system.  Please relocate to a third world shit hole ASAP, you will love it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have called 911 a few times.  The first responders are here usually in about 2 minutes.  The only thing that has broken the educational system is standardization and treating it like a profession instead of a job.
Click to expand...

Teachers are very professional

They should be compensated as such


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

rightwinger said:


> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking


WTF?


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think they aren't?
> 
> I have a Master's degree and get paid more because of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, if they are, then they should be compensated in kind. If they are not then they should not. This is not rocket surgery. Who would you rather take a biology course from? An English lit grad or a biologist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you read my post?
> 
> Teachers are certified in the subject they teach about 99 percent of the time. You can be certified without having the degree. I teach math but took my classwork at 2 different schools and I know the subject better than those with a degree hang on the wall. I do have a degree in history and masters in education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you not comprehend my post? There is a distinct difference between certification to instruct a subject and formal learning in that subject. Do you dispute the depth of knowledge that one would gain? Don't you feel that teachers who are FORMALLY trained in maths, biology et al. should be better compensated to encourage entrants FROM those fields?
> You teaching math with a history degree is a prime example of the NORM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Certification requires you be TESTED to verify you have the requisite knowledge to teach the course.
> 
> As I stated, I have all the requirements for a degree in math but I gained them at two different universities, so I have no degree from either one.  I am a better math teacher than most who have math education degrees and plain old math degrees.
> 
> Do you know why I can't get a regular  job as a math teacher with 21 years as an educator?  They do not want to pay me even the $50K salary I would get.  They would rather get someone out of college at $35K a year and keep them 4 years and discard them before they get tenure.
> 
> The high school where I normally substitute has a math position and chemistry position they cannot fill because the district is under a budget freeze because our state legislature is cutting the budget about 17%.
> 
> Right now, I get paid $105 a day with zero benefits to cover a National Guardsman who was called up for a training deployment.  They will actually save thousands of dollars over the next 3 months by having me replace him.  He will make more drawing a Captain's pay than he did as a teacher by a long shot!
Click to expand...

Bummer man. Sounds like a rough row to hoe.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Dekster said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever hear of volunteer fire departments?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.
Click to expand...



You would be surprised how fast Volunteers get to a fire. Of course in a big,rural area that would be impossible. But we lived in a TWP that had 4 Fire Stations.

When the TWP became a city they were able to hire , but we had already moved, so it did not affect us. It is very hard work but rewarding.


----------



## MaryAnne11

rightwinger said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
Click to expand...



They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.

But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.


----------



## MaryAnne11

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet they seldom do....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many do ....especially in math, science, computers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then the problem is solved.  Let them go work in math and science and computers, but in the redneck part of our nation, they are going to have a hard time finding a job doing that in their field, so hope they didn't buy a house with a big fat mortgage that needs paying off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the students in those states who don’t have qualified teachers in math, science, computers or any other subject in demand in the private sector?
Click to expand...



They fail. One of the huge reasons for the Opoid epidemic we face today.

Not all are poor, but the majority go to drugs. Like that town in WV where Bernie and Chris Hayes did a show. There was nothing for the kids. You had the older ones hoping their old  Coal jobs would come back while their children suffer. Never going to happen.

We had that during the Recession. Automation, changing times. The smart learned new skills.

Congress pours money into destructive wars while our Country suffers. Priorities are completely wrong. That has to change.


----------



## rightwinger

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> 
> 
> WTF?
Click to expand...


Education back then concentrated on recitation of knowledge. Not critical thinking


----------



## rightwinger

MaryAnne11 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
Click to expand...

Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade


----------



## MaryAnne11

rightwinger said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
Click to expand...


I agree, because at that time they could get well paying jobs. That time is long past.

You can not even get a job in Retail, or any other type of low paying jobs without a certain amount of skill.

For those who live in the past, it will never return.

Change and types of skills are always changing even those who gaduate from College have to keep up with the changing times.

Those of us who are older need to quit dwelling on those,” Good old days,” need to understand and accept change. Those jobs that required back breaking are gone. And we desperately need Teachers that love Teaching.

It is not fair that those teachers are not paid decent wages when they are the future of our country.

Our priorities are so screwed up by a do nothing, lobbyist controlled Congress I am not sure where to start.

I do know I am sick of old people yelling about those days. It will never happen again! I really do not want it.


----------



## pismoe

yeah , the teachers are such treasures and are full of knowledge and young 'cack'  Maryann .  ---  The big list: Female teachers with students  ---


----------



## pismoe

and look at how the TEACHER , Taxpayer paid TEACHERS organize their young students to remove their parents and adults RIGHTS on school / work time  Maryann .  ---------------  ---   Teacher Assigns Students To Write Anti-Gun Letters To Congress - Blue Lives Matter  ---


----------



## pismoe

here is audio of taxpayer paid teachers trying to brainwash 6th graders .   One 'cutey' turns her azz in though  MaryAnn .  ---    ---   kid is cute and well spoken so she is being taught well at home MaryAnn .


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> yeah , the teachers are such treasures and are full of knowledge and young 'cack'  Maryann .  ---  The big list: Female teachers with students  ---


Now give us a list of male teachers with students.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah , the teachers are such treasures and are full of knowledge and young 'cack'  Maryann .  ---  The big list: Female teachers with students  ---
> 
> 
> 
> Now give us a list of male teachers with students.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

----------------------------------------------   YOU do that , and its ok with me .  Course when i went to school in the 50s and 60s the TEACHER were all Ameicans , mostly WW2 or Korea Veterans and were certainly a far cry above these WHORE / slut Teachers   MaryAnn .   But hey , start your thread about pig male teachers  MaryAnn .


----------



## pismoe

and hey , i could do this all day , just google , Teacher abuses young students or any variation .    But here is one from a few days ago .   ---  https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/teacher-allegedly-performed-oral-sex-on-13-year-old-in-class/  ---   i mean , hey , its funny as i hear Teachers whining about wanting more money and people lauding TEACHERS for their education and teaching abilty .    Its just funny MaryAnn .


----------



## pismoe

taxpayer paid teacher using drugs in classroom .  ---   A high school teacher was doing drugs in a classroom as students caught her on video  ---    as i said , its just funny MaryAnn !!


----------



## pismoe

and when and if you start a MALE Teacher thread featuring Male teachers sexually messing with kids it'll be fine with me .  Many , many taxpayer paid Teachers both male and female , usually young liberal 'hip hop' types are ALL scum and thats my only point MaryAnn .    And they all want more taxpayer money and respect  MaryAnn .


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> and when and if you start a MALE Teacher sexually messing with kids it;ll be fine with me .  Many . many taxpayer paid Teachers both male and female , usually young liberal 'hip hop' types are ALL scum and thats my only point MaryAnn .    And they all want more taxpayer money and respect  MaryAnn .



Do some teachers get in trouble for messing with kids?  Sure!

How about you name a profession in the US that has more than 7 million members that doesn't have bad eggs?

You propose punishing every teacher for the actions of others?  How about I do the same to you for the actions of a few with whom you share something in common?  It might not seem as fair when it is done to you!


----------



## pismoe

many teacher and adninistration are unamerican scum , see what they teach kids about Guns and RIGHTS Admiral , and they do it for taxpayer MONEY .   I did post a few links in the thread , i might repost them for you Admiral .


----------



## pismoe

here you go Admiral .   ---   Teacher Assigns Students To Write Anti-Gun Letters To Congress - Blue Lives Matter  ---


----------



## pismoe

and teacher using drugs in classroom .  ---   A high school teacher was doing drugs in a classroom as students caught her on video  ---


----------



## pismoe

another one for you Admiral ---    ---  cute well spoken kid Admiral .


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> 
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, because at that time they could get well paying jobs. That time is long past.
> 
> You can not even get a job in Retail, or any other type of low paying jobs without a certain amount of skill.
> 
> For those who live in the past, it will never return.
> 
> Change and types of skills are always changing even those who gaduate from College have to keep up with the changing times.
> 
> Those of us who are older need to quit dwelling on those,” Good old days,” need to understand and accept change. Those jobs that required back breaking are gone. And we desperately need Teachers that love Teaching.
> 
> It is not fair that those teachers are not paid decent wages when they are the future of our country.
> 
> Our priorities are so screwed up by a do nothing, lobbyist controlled Congress I am not sure where to start.
> 
> I do know I am sick of old people yelling about those days. It will never happen again! I really do not want it.
Click to expand...

-----------------------------------------------  doesn't need to return for some lucky people that have lived long and Prosperous lives as Americans when American meant something .   I just compare my life to the kind of life i see coming for YOU guys and your kids .   Doesn't look very good to me MaryAnn .


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> many teacher and adninistration are unamerican scum , see what they teach kids about Guns and RIGHTS Admiral , and they do it for taxpayer MONEY .   I did post a few links in the thread , i might repost them for you Admiral .



So?

I don't like it any more than you do, but you want to punish ALL teachers for the actions of a few.

Fire their asses would have been my reaction if they worked for me.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> another one for you Admiral ---    ---  cute well spoken kid Admiral .




Key word  - "one".

Do you not see that broad brush you are using?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> and teacher using drugs in classroom .  ---   A high school teacher was doing drugs in a classroom as students caught her on video  ---



Another "one".

How many are you up to total?  A half dozen?  Out of millions?


----------



## pismoe

they do a lot of Damage to the individuals that they teach . 


Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> many teacher and adninistration are unamerican scum , see what they teach kids about Guns and RIGHTS Admiral , and they do it for taxpayer MONEY .   I did post a few links in the thread , i might repost them for you Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> I don't like it any more than you do, but you want to punish ALL teachers for the actions of a few.
> 
> Fire their asses would have been my reaction if they worked for me.
Click to expand...


---------------------------- looks at the public schools that just allowed the punks out of school to attend a political protest to remove RIGHTS from their parents and other American adults .   i think that the brainwasher type teachers as shown in Post 119 most of these teachers are Union and very few can be fired for what they teach Admiral .


----------



## pismoe

and more examples  can be found all day long , simply 'google'  Admiral .   But the examples i post represent lots of taxpayer paid public school teachers  Admiral .


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> they do a lot of Damage to the individuals that they teach .
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> many teacher and adninistration are unamerican scum , see what they teach kids about Guns and RIGHTS Admiral , and they do it for taxpayer MONEY .   I did post a few links in the thread , i might repost them for you Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> I don't like it any more than you do, but you want to punish ALL teachers for the actions of a few.
> 
> Fire their asses would have been my reaction if they worked for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------- looks at the public schools that just allowed the punks out of school to attend a political protest to remove RIGHTS from their parents and other American adults .  * i think* that the brainwasher type teachers as shown in Post 119 most of these teachers are Union and very few can be fired for what they teach Admiral .
Click to expand...



No.  You don't think.  That is your problem.

The schools had a choice.  Let the kids protest without penalty or punish the massive number of kids that did protest.  Is that what you would have preferred?  Let's disrupt the entire education for weeks on end rather than a few minutes for them to show their ignorance!  That sounds like a great idea!


----------



## pismoe

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> another one for you Admiral ---    ---  cute well spoken kid Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Key word  - "one".
> 
> Do you not see that broad brush you are using?
Click to expand...

--------------------  and more than 20 kids were polutted by that one teacher and another named 'mr. stroud. if you read the article  .   And not so broad a brush , many liberal teachers pollute public schools with unAmerican attitudes and information .  I simply post a few examples  Admiral .


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> and more examples  can be found all day long , simply 'google'  Admiral .   But the examples i post represent lots of taxpayer paid public school teachers  Admiral .



I don't need to Google, dumbass!  I guarantee that I follow this topic much closer than you do.

When you can provide me about a couple hundred thousand examples, then perhaps you will have a point other than the one on your head!

In case you don't realize, there are douchebags, jerks, assholes, Communists, sexual deviants, perverts, and liberals everywhere!  Just deciding that you want them to go away doesn't cut it!  The fact that you broad brush everyone is a testament to your own lack of moral character.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> another one for you Admiral ---    ---  cute well spoken kid Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Key word  - "one".
> 
> Do you not see that broad brush you are using?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> --------------------  and more than 20 kids were polutted by that one teacher and another named 'mr. stroud. if you read the article  .   And not so broad a brush , many liberal teachers pollute public schools with unAmerican attitudes and information .  I simply post a few examples  Admiral .
Click to expand...


No, you post the ones that make the news.  How about the 170 students I have that are supporting their teacher, who is a member of our National Guard deploying overseas and unable to finish the school year.  Did you read about that in the lame stream media?

For every negative story you find, there are literally hundreds of stories that do not get a bit of acknowledgement, but they get plenty of derision by assholes like you who seem to think they are all alike!


----------



## pismoe

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> they do a lot of Damage to the individuals that they teach .
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> many teacher and adninistration are unamerican scum , see what they teach kids about Guns and RIGHTS Admiral , and they do it for taxpayer MONEY .   I did post a few links in the thread , i might repost them for you Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> I don't like it any more than you do, but you want to punish ALL teachers for the actions of a few.
> 
> Fire their asses would have been my reaction if they worked for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------- looks at the public schools that just allowed the punks out of school to attend a political protest to remove RIGHTS from their parents and other American adults .  * i think* that the brainwasher type teachers as shown in Post 119 most of these teachers are Union and very few can be fired for what they teach Admiral .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.  You don't think.  That is your problem.
> 
> The schools had a choice.  Let the kids protest without penalty or punish the massive number of kids that did protest.  Is that what you would have preferred?  Let's disrupt the entire education for weeks on end rather than a few minutes for them to show their ignorance!  That sounds like a great idea!
Click to expand...

---------------------------------------   yeah , let the punk kids run the public schools that are already polluted .  Point is that the teacher , administrators kissed punk kids azzes and sent these punks to the political protests to disarm their parents and other American Adults .  [chuckle] --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And unrelated and OFF TOPIC but Veterans are doing the same work as these punk kids , their teachers and School Administrators .    Same for Retired Military 'generals' [and probably Admirals] as they also work against Americans owning semi auto rifles .   ----------   Are you really 'mrobamas'  Retired RR. Admiral 'john kirby' Admiral ??


----------



## pismoe

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and more examples  can be found all day long , simply 'google'  Admiral .   But the examples i post represent lots of taxpayer paid public school teachers  Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need to Google, dumbass!  I guarantee that I follow this topic much closer than you do.
> 
> When you can provide me about a couple hundred thousand examples, then perhaps you will have a point other than the one on your head!
> 
> In case you don't realize, there are douchebags, jerks, assholes, Communists, sexual deviants, perverts, and liberals everywhere!  Just deciding that you want them to go away doesn't cut it!  The fact that you broad brush everyone is a testament to your own lack of moral character.
Click to expand...

-------------------------------------------   i don't want them to go anywhere as i watch and see what they do as they pollute the youth.   I just advertise them as best i can as information to people that MIGHT be interested .   Yeah , you probably are 'mrobamas' RR. Admiral 'john kirby' or have kids that are teachers eh Admiral ??


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> they do a lot of Damage to the individuals that they teach .
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> many teacher and adninistration are unamerican scum , see what they teach kids about Guns and RIGHTS Admiral , and they do it for taxpayer MONEY .   I did post a few links in the thread , i might repost them for you Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> I don't like it any more than you do, but you want to punish ALL teachers for the actions of a few.
> 
> Fire their asses would have been my reaction if they worked for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------- looks at the public schools that just allowed the punks out of school to attend a political protest to remove RIGHTS from their parents and other American adults .  * i think* that the brainwasher type teachers as shown in Post 119 most of these teachers are Union and very few can be fired for what they teach Admiral .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.  You don't think.  That is your problem.
> 
> The schools had a choice.  Let the kids protest without penalty or punish the massive number of kids that did protest.  Is that what you would have preferred?  Let's disrupt the entire education for weeks on end rather than a few minutes for them to show their ignorance!  That sounds like a great idea!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ---------------------------------------   yeah , let the punk kids run the public schools that are already polluted .  Point is that the teacher , administrators kissed punk kids azzes and sent these punks to the political protests to disarm their parents and other American Adults .  [chuckle] --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And unrelated and OFF TOPIC but Veterans are doing the same work as these punk kids , their teachers and School Administrators .    Same for Retired Military 'generals' [and probably Admirals] as they also work against Americans owning semi auto rifles .   ----------   Are you really 'mrobamas'  Retired RR. Admiral 'john kirby' Admiral ??
Click to expand...



OK, since you want to be a keyboard commando, let me educate you.  The decisions about the protests are not made by teachers.  Teachers do not make those kind of decisions.  We don't get together and vote on issues and then tell the superintendent or principal what we decided. In my district, it was our superintendent with the consent of the school board, so take your ignorant opinions and shove them where the sun does not shine! 

I would like to apologize for the failure of your teachers to give you the critical thinking skills you need to overcome your dumbass attitudes!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and more examples  can be found all day long , simply 'google'  Admiral .   But the examples i post represent lots of taxpayer paid public school teachers  Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need to Google, dumbass!  I guarantee that I follow this topic much closer than you do.
> 
> When you can provide me about a couple hundred thousand examples, then perhaps you will have a point other than the one on your head!
> 
> In case you don't realize, there are douchebags, jerks, assholes, Communists, sexual deviants, perverts, and liberals everywhere!  Just deciding that you want them to go away doesn't cut it!  The fact that you broad brush everyone is a testament to your own lack of moral character.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> -------------------------------------------   i don't want them to go anywhere as i watch and see what they do as they pollute the youth.   I just advertise them as best i can as information to people that MIGHT be interested .   Yeah , you probably are 'mrobamas' RR. Admiral 'john kirby'* or have kids that are teachers eh Admiral ??*
Click to expand...



I have been a teacher for 21 years, dumbass!


----------



## pismoe

the Taxpayer paid superintendent and administrators probably make the decision Admiral or the Teachers Unions and the Teacher probably plan and participate Admiral .


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
Click to expand...


The private & parochial schools here are the best..  the gubmint schools, not so much.


----------



## pismoe

so the Admiral is a Taxpayer paid teacher .  Thanks for that info Teach .


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> and hey , i could do this all day , just google , Teacher abuses young students or any variation .    But here is one from a few days ago .   ---  https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/teacher-allegedly-performed-oral-sex-on-13-year-old-in-class/  ---   i mean , hey , its funny as i hear Teachers whining about wanting more money and people lauding TEACHERS for their education and teaching abilty .    Its just funny MaryAnn .


 Carry on.

Just so you can think all Teachers are rotten because of some.

Here is hoping your kids are out of school.


----------



## OldLady

DGS49 said:


> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.


But what if some of these teachers actually WANT to teach?  Teaching as a career isn't exactly like chosing to work for Hills or Macy's.  In a state where the wage is controlled state wide, a teacher would have to leave the state to make a living wage.
Four years of college (in most states five) costs money.  No one teaches to get rich, but refusing to pay them enough to live is ridiculous.  These are professionals and the only reason they aren't paid enough to live on is because as a society we don't value them.  We sure do like to blame them for everything that goes wrong, as if they were actually important, but we won't pay them commensurately.


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and hey , i could do this all day , just google , Teacher abuses young students or any variation .    But here is one from a few days ago .   ---  https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/teacher-allegedly-performed-oral-sex-on-13-year-old-in-class/  ---   i mean , hey , its funny as i hear Teachers whining about wanting more money and people lauding TEACHERS for their education and teaching abilty .    Its just funny MaryAnn .
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> Just so you can think all Teachers are rotten because of some.
> 
> Here is hoping your kids are out of school.
Click to expand...

-----------------------------------------   they are MaryAnn


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

MaryAnne11 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and hey , i could do this all day , just google , Teacher abuses young students or any variation .    But here is one from a few days ago .   ---  https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/teacher-allegedly-performed-oral-sex-on-13-year-old-in-class/  ---   i mean , hey , its funny as i hear Teachers whining about wanting more money and people lauding TEACHERS for their education and teaching abilty .    Its just funny MaryAnn .
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> Just so you can think all Teachers are rotten because of some.
> 
> Here is hoping your kids are out of school.
Click to expand...


Mine are, after 12 years of Episcopal school & Loyola & Tulane.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Soggy in NOLA said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The private & parochial schools here are the best..  the gubmint schools, not so much.
Click to expand...


We have some of the best public schools in the country.

In some areas,the worst. We chose the best to move to.


----------



## pismoe

all the Taxpayer paid school teacher chime in wanting more taxpayer money as they pollute the minds of AMERICAN Youth with unAmerican thinking  eh OldLady .


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

OldLady said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> But what if some of these teachers actually WANT to teach?  Teaching as a career isn't exactly like chosing to work for Hills or Macy's.  In a state where the wage is controlled state wide, a teacher would have to leave the state to make a living wage.
> Four years of college (in most states five) costs money.  No one teaches to get rich, but refusing to pay them enough to live is ridiculous.  These are professionals and the only reason they aren't paid enough to live on is because as a society we don't value them.  We sure do like to blame them for everything that goes wrong, as if they were actually important, but we won't pay them commensurately.
Click to expand...


Lemme guess, public school?


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah , the teachers are such treasures and are full of knowledge and young 'cack'  Maryann .  ---  The big list: Female teachers with students  ---
> 
> 
> 
> Now give us a list of male teachers with students.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------   YOU do that , and its ok with me .  Course when i went to school in the 50s and 60s the TEACHER were all Ameicans , mostly WW2 or Korea Veterans and were certainly a far cry above these WHORE / slut Teachers   MaryAnn .   But hey , start your thread about pig male teachers  MaryAnn .
Click to expand...


You are the one who inserted the female Teacher list.

I have been posting about Teacher’s pay. That is what this thread is about.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Soggy in NOLA said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and hey , i could do this all day , just google , Teacher abuses young students or any variation .    But here is one from a few days ago .   ---  https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/teacher-allegedly-performed-oral-sex-on-13-year-old-in-class/  ---   i mean , hey , its funny as i hear Teachers whining about wanting more money and people lauding TEACHERS for their education and teaching abilty .    Its just funny MaryAnn .
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> Just so you can think all Teachers are rotten because of some.
> 
> Here is hoping your kids are out of school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mine are, after 12 years of Episcopal school & Loyola & Tulane.
Click to expand...


Mine attended great public Schools, then UD, a Catholic College. While the next generation chose the oldest College in the Country,out of 6 that gave him Scholrships.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> the Taxpayer paid superintendent and administrators *probably* make the decision Admiral or the Teachers Unions and the Teacher *probably* plan and participate Admiral .



Why don't you please stop talking out of your ass?  The unions have zero input because they have no power whatsoever and it is also none of their business.  It has nothing to do with teacher working conditions or compensation.  Got any more bullshit to spread, or is your tank getting empty?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and hey , i could do this all day , just google , Teacher abuses young students or any variation .    But here is one from a few days ago .   ---  https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/teacher-allegedly-performed-oral-sex-on-13-year-old-in-class/  ---   i mean , hey , its funny as i hear Teachers whining about wanting more money and people lauding TEACHERS for their education and teaching abilty .    Its just funny MaryAnn .
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> Just so you can think all Teachers are rotten because of some.
> 
> Here is hoping your kids are out of school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> -----------------------------------------   they are MaryAnn
Click to expand...


Good!  Are they moved out and away from your poisonous personality?


----------



## pismoe

OldLady said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> But what if some of these teachers actually WANT to teach?  Teaching as a career isn't exactly like chosing to work for Hills or Macy's.  In a state where the wage is controlled state wide, a teacher would have to leave the state to make a living wage.
> Four years of college (in most states five) costs money.  No one teaches to get rich, but refusing to pay them enough to live is ridiculous.  These are professionals and the only reason they aren't paid enough to live on is because as a society we don't value them.  We sure do like to blame them for everything that goes wrong, as if they were actually important, but we won't pay them commensurately.
Click to expand...

-----------------------------------------   they ACTUALLY Want to teach [so what] , well let them teach if they are suitable and many are not suitable .   Many are SLUTs like the teachers that i highlight .   Many are unAmerican , many are Anti gun and anti America RIGHTS organizers  .   Many are 'communists' , perverts , deviants as the good Admiral mentions .   They want to teach , so what , many burger flippers want to be Train Engineers or Doctors  OldLady .


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah , the teachers are such treasures and are full of knowledge and young 'cack'  Maryann .  ---  The big list: Female teachers with students  ---
> 
> 
> 
> Now give us a list of male teachers with students.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------   YOU do that , and its ok with me .  Course when i went to school in the 50s and 60s the TEACHER were all Ameicans , mostly WW2 or Korea Veterans and were certainly a far cry above these WHORE / slut Teachers   MaryAnn .   But hey , start your thread about pig male teachers  MaryAnn .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the one who inserted the female Teacher list.
> 
> I have been posting about Teacher’s pay. That is what this thread is about.
Click to expand...

-----------------------------------   sure , the deviant female teacher list poped up when i googled .   As far as money , all the pervert , deviants and communist Teachers that the Good Admiral mentions will ALL get a raise if YOU get the raise in pay Mary ANN.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

pismoe said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> But what if some of these teachers actually WANT to teach?  Teaching as a career isn't exactly like chosing to work for Hills or Macy's.  In a state where the wage is controlled state wide, a teacher would have to leave the state to make a living wage.
> Four years of college (in most states five) costs money.  No one teaches to get rich, but refusing to pay them enough to live is ridiculous.  These are professionals and the only reason they aren't paid enough to live on is because as a society we don't value them.  We sure do like to blame them for everything that goes wrong, as if they were actually important, but we won't pay them commensurately.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> -----------------------------------------   they ACTUALLY Want to teach [so what] , well let them teach if they are suitable and many are not suitable .   Many are SLUTs like the teachers that i highlight .   Many are unAmerican , many are Anti gun anti RIGHTS organizers  .   Many are 'communists' . perverts , deviants as the good Admiral mentions .   They want to teach , so what , many burger flippers want to be Train Engineers  OldLady .
Click to expand...


You are a loon.  You contribute nothing to the conversation but lies.  Anybody that would seriously consider listening to your tripe is a candidate for the funny farm. Goodbye asshole!


----------



## pismoe

see you later Teach !!


----------



## pismoe

my so called lies are backed up by linked info on what i say Teach / Admiral !!


----------



## pismoe

so , as far as Compensation , how mush does a teacher make for 9 months a year on the job.   Do they work 8 hours a day , how much time do they spend in the Lounge [breaks] and do they mostly work in heated and air conditioned buildings . Do teachers get Vacation and what does that amount to ??      How about sick days and Personal Days ??   Do teachers punch a clock so that they can betracked as to where there time goes or are the Special .   What pay and perks do Americas taxpayers provide teachers with  MaryAnn ??


----------



## WorldWatcher

pismoe said:


> so , as far as Compensation , how mush does a teacher make for 9 months a year on the job.



Varies by service years and geo location as some areas (due to cost of living) pay more or less than others.




pismoe said:


> Do they work 8 hours a day ,



Usually much more during the school year.



pismoe said:


> how much time do they spend in the Lounge [breaks]



Not much.  Teachers, if they are lucky get maybe 45 minutes a day as a "planning period" and that time is often spent returning parent phone calls or emails or in grade/department planning meetings.



pismoe said:


> and do they mostly work in heated and air conditioned buildings .



Irrelevant.

Do butchers working in a chill room get paid less than a ditch digger using a shovel?




pismoe said:


> Do teachers get Vacation and what does that amount to ??



I my school system (and no, I'm not a teacher), No.  Teachers are not eligible to accrue Vacation Time.  Only 12 month employees accrue Vacation TIME.



pismoe said:


> How about sick days and Personal Days ??



I my school system (and no, I'm not a teacher), Yes.  As full time employees they are eligible for Sick Leave.  Personal Days come out of an individuals Sick Leave bank.  So if someone has 48 hours of Sick Leave, takes a Personal Day, at the end of the week they have 40 hours of Sick Leave remaining.



pismoe said:


> Do teachers punch a clock so that they can betracked as to where there time goes or are the Special .



No, under Federal Law (The Fair Labor and Standards Act) full time teachers are considered a salary employee paid an annual rate not an hourly employee that is paid on a per-hour basis.  Salaried employees don't "punch-a-clock".

However all employees, even salaried must account for all hours worked for a standard work day, they can work more than the standard day - since they are salaried, but the standard day must be accounted for.  Teacher are required to account for their time using the KRONOS Timekeeping system.  If they have a medical appointment they submit that in advance through KRONOS and it must be approved by they Principal.  If it is a short notice sick-day then the school timekeeper puts it into the KRONOS system for them.

So there are three possibilities:

The teacher is at work.
The teacher is out on sick leave/personal day and the hours are charged against their sick day balance.
The teacher is out and has exhausted sick leave and goes into an unpaid statues for the missed time and their check is docked.



pismoe said:


> What pay and perks do Americas taxpayers provide teachers with  MaryAnn ??



The same that are provided to other full time employees, medical insurance, a retirement program, etc.  The vast majority of Americans get medical insurance through their employer and some states are moving from pension system to 403B/457 accounts (the government equivalent of the private sectors 401K).

In Virginia for example all employees used to be on a pension system.  A number of years ago it was changed to a "hybrid" system where less was paid in to a pension fund and the employee had to setup a 403b.  A shift from a defined benefits program to a hybrid define benefits/contribution program for new hires/broken service people.  I can see in the next few yeas the next step happening where pensions are eliminated going totally with a defined contribution system for new hires/broken service people.


>>>>


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> so , as far as Compensation , how mush does a teacher make for 9 months a year on the job.   Do they work 8 hours a day , how much time do they spend in the Lounge [breaks] and do they mostly work in heated and air conditioned buildings . Do teachers get Vacation and what does that amount to ??      How about sick days and Personal Days ??   Do teachers punch a clock so that they can betracked as to where there time goes or are the Special .   What pay and perks do Americas taxpayers provide teachers with  MaryAnn ??



First of all, there is no such thing as 9 month job. There is no 8 hour day either. I stayed in close contact with the School while my Son’s were there.

Matter of fact we bought a House right across from a new High School with the Elementary School tight behind.

As the Mother of a Son that was in everything I spent a great deal of time there because he volunteered me for everything.

Teachers spend much time with Parents. Good,hard working Teachers who encouraged their students. They also further their Education. Requires true dedication.

My Son and DIL also spent a great deal of time with his. They know the value of good Teachers.

You have such a warped view of what most Teachers are,I am really wasting my time. Use Google resources to learn facts.


----------



## pismoe

well Thanks , looks like Teachers are compensated ok same as police , firemen , military employees [volunteer military] that all work as public servants and who freely applied for the Job of TEACHER   WWatcher ,


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> so , as far as Compensation , how mush does a teacher make for 9 months a year on the job.   Do they work 8 hours a day , how much time do they spend in the Lounge [breaks] and do they mostly work in heated and air conditioned buildings . Do teachers get Vacation and what does that amount to ??      How about sick days and Personal Days ??   Do teachers punch a clock so that they can betracked as to where there time goes or are the Special .   What pay and perks do Americas taxpayers provide teachers with  MaryAnn ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, there is no such thing as 9 month job. There is no 8 hour day either. I stayed in close contact with the School while my Son’s were there.
> 
> Matter of fact we bought a House right across from a new High School with the Elementary School tight behind.
> 
> As the Mother of a Son that was in everything I spent a great deal of time there because he volunteered me for everything.
> 
> Teachers spend much time with Parents. Good,hard working Teachers who encouraged their students. They also further their Education. Requires true dedication.
> 
> My Son and DIL also spent a great deal of time with his. They know the value of good Teachers.
> 
> You have such a warped view of what most Teachers are,I am really wasting my time. Use Google resources to learn facts.
Click to expand...

----------------------------------------------   i am not interested in Volunteer time .  Say for example that i volunteer for the NRA , well , i don't get paid for the time that i volunteer for the NRA as that is just Public Service done for the good of the USA . Same goes for the Volunteer Fire Department back in the U.P. .   It was a volunteer position made to save homes and barns , property in rural areas .   Working with Parents after school hours is not valid when looking for MORE money as its volunteer and should only be done out of the Goodness of your heart  MaryAnn .


----------



## WorldWatcher

pismoe said:


> well Thanks , looks like Teachers are compensated ok same as police , firemen , military employees [volunteer military] that all work as public servants and who freely applied for the Job of TEACHER   WWatcher ,



Since you mention the military.

Here are the raised for the military since 2007 (which are compounded, in other words the previous years pay change is impacted by the next years %).

2007 = 3.4%
2008 = 3.5%
2009 = 3.9%
2010 = 3.4%
2011 = 1.4%
2012 = 1.6%
2013 = 1.7%
2014 = 1.0%
2015 = 1.0%
2016 = 1.3%
2017 = 2.1%

Last Pay Raise for Oklahoma Teachers

2007 = Some amount
2008 = 0%
2009 = 0%
2010 = 0%
2011 = 0%
2012 = 0%
2013 = 0%
2014 = 0%
2015 = 0%
2016 = 0%
2017 = 0%


Oklahoma Legislature passes tax hikes for teacher pay
Military Pay Raises - 2004 to 2018


>>>>


----------



## pismoe

Further Education , might be needed if teachers want to keep their jobs same as many other Occupations .   Police and Military need to know how to shoot so they practice shooting and study the laws .     Semi Truck drivers need to know the Rules of the Road and new routes on the road .   You teachers ain't SPECIAL as i think that education rates are always falling .  And then the quality of Teachers , check out my couple links to see the quality of teachers that are drawing Taxpayer funded salaries Mary Ann .


----------



## WorldWatcher

pismoe said:


> ----------------------------------------------   i am not interested in Volunteer time .  Say for example that i volunteer for the NRA , well , i don't get paid for the time that i volunteer for the NRA as that is just Public Service done for the good of the USA . Same goes for the Volunteer Fire Department back in the U.P. .   It was a volunteer position made to save homes and barns , property in rural areas .   Working with Parents after school hours is not valid when looking for MORE money as its volunteer and should only be done out of the Goodness of your heart  MaryAnn .



Volunteer hours are those hours where you have a choice.  You can volunteer with the fire department, NRA, or Church - or not.

When it's part of the job, those are not volunteer hours.

Parental communications, less planning, team meetings, office hours after school to assist struggling students, attendance it school events (open houses, parent nights, etc), returning calls to parents during the day or at night of communicating with them via email is not "volunteer" time when it is a required and expected part of the job.  It is part of the Professional Exemption teachers qualify for under the Fair Labor and Standards Act.


>>>>


----------



## MaryAnne11

I can never understand why anyone would complain about Teachers.

But,of course I can not understand why anyone could vote for the most vacuous, 4TH grade Speaking, lying individual I have ever seen,ether.


----------



## WorldWatcher

pismoe said:


> Further Education , might be needed if teachers want to keep their jobs same as many other Occupations .   Police and Military need to know how to shoot so they practice shooting and study the laws .     Semi Truck drivers need to know the Rules of the Road and new routes on the road .   You teachers ain't SPECIAL as i think that education rates are always falling .  And then the quality of Teachers , check out my couple links to see the quality of teachers that are drawing Taxpayer funded salaries Mary Ann .



You posted a few links to individual stories about some bad apples.  Then go on to use that to try to say all 3,200,000 teachers are the same.

Do you apply the same standard to the military?  Say because I can link to a few stories and there are about 1,300,000 members on active duty they are all the same as the ones below?


Germany-based Army officer convicted of raping three daughters
Four U.S. soldiers charged with rape and murder  - CNN.com
Incarcerated Bronze Star recipient now accused of deception, fraud and stealing from the Navy
Former Navy Sailor pleads guilty to 2016 Virginia Beach murder
Active Duty Air Force Master Sergeant Sentenced to Prison for Accepting Bribes in a Government Contract Fraud Scheme
Air Force officer convicted, sentenced to 3 years for rape and other charges


>>>>


----------



## pismoe

Military had standards and may still have military discipline .  i do not know about todays Military standards where things are very , very different and PROBABLY much worse [assumed] than even 20 years ago .    Anyway . i post about sex predator and anti American teachers and i could google and get new examples every hour of every day .  I don't respect teacher because of the examples that i post and even the good Admiral admits too .   Teacher as a Class always want more money all the time and they want 'respect' but many of them are know nothing , anti American Sluts doing teacher work simply for the money and access to kids .    I never pointed my finger at YOU   WWatcher.


----------



## pismoe

many teachers are unAmerican anti gun organizers of kids .   See the anti gun protests just a weeks ago  MaryAnn .


----------



## JoeMoma

rightwinger said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think teacher pay should be increased commensurate to a teacher's education. Teachers should have a formal education background in the courses they are instructing. For example, my biology teacher in high school had his masters in the field. My history teacher had her masters and was a former USN officer and War College instructor. Their experience and educational backgrounds were evident, both in their curriculum and in their ability to deviate and expound upon subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
Click to expand...

Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.


----------



## WorldWatcher

pismoe said:


> Military had standards and may still have military discipline .  i do not know about todays Military standards where things are very , very different and PROBABLY much worse [assumed] than even 20 years ago .    Anyway . i post about sex predator and anti American teachers and i could google and get new examples every hour of every day .  I don't respect teacher because of the examples that i post and even the good Admiral admits too .   Teacher as a Class always want more money all the time and they want 'respect' but many of them are know nothing , anti American Sluts doing teacher work simply for the money and access to kids .    I never pointed my finger at YOU   WWatcher.




I didn't say you did point a finger at me.  I'm just pointing out two things:

1.  The hypocrisy of not applying the same standard.

2.  How dumb it is to apply the action of a few bad apples to literally millions of service member or teachers.



>>>>


----------



## HenryBHough

I think back on my elementary school principal of 50+ years ago.

She was terminally Irish, terminally Catholic (the Roman variety) and terminally Democrat.

She hammered into us that if America ever allowed the federal government to contribute even one penny toward education there would be no more education - only indoctrination.

She's dead now and probably a good thing that she didn't live to see this cluster-fuck we now call "education".  

Now re-read; she was a strongly left-leaning DEMOCRAT....though, in fairness, that was in the days when there was an actual DemocratIC Party and JFK was still acceptable to the party elite.


----------



## Flash

My wife was a teacher for 29 years.

Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.

When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.

Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.

Never once complained about the pay.

Suck it up Buttercups.


----------



## MaryAnne11

JoeMoma said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> 
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
Click to expand...



I do not buy that,having observed just how well informed High School students are today.

My family was doing a comparison of graduating from College 20, 30 years ago to now. The High school students know as much or more than a College student then.

We need to get past all this crap of,” Students today,don’t know nothing!” Attitude. That simply is not true. They have rigid standards for graduation.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
Click to expand...


I have long said teachers pay should commensurate with the results of their teaching. Merit based.
I have zero problem with my tax dollars paying a teacher very good wages as long as their performance is equally high.
  I have a HUGE problem with teachers making $50k a year with very good bene's and more time off in one year than most people get in 5 years...and their performance is abysmal. Every single school system carries the weight of teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. Some schools have teachers so bad they pay them to sit in rooms and do absolutely nothing. Known as "rubber rooms".  I remember one Chicago system that employed something like 400 teachers I believe, and had something like 30 teachers in such programs. How can they afford to pay better wages when 10% of the employees are paid to do nothing??


----------



## iamwhatiseem

rightwinger 

New York City pays a total of $30,000,000 per year in wages for teachers sitting in rubber rooms.
Fix the unions, then perhaps the system can afford to pay teachers better.


----------



## iamwhatiseem




----------



## Unkotare

JoeMoma said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> That along with results
> I want to see improved performance of their students regardless of their level
> D students become C students
> C students become B students
> B students become A students
> 
> 
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
Click to expand...


Link?


----------



## initforme

Not every state is like new York.  And Oklahoma is frankly pathetic.not a raise in 10 years?  Even the teacher of the year got up and left. Remind me drive around that backwards sad sack state when travelling.  Those of you crybabies who think teachers have it made could have become one.


----------



## Unkotare

iamwhatiseem said:


> .... teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. .....




That's nonsense.


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> and more examples  can be found all day long , simply 'google'  Admiral .   But the examples i post represent lots of taxpayer paid public school teachers  Admiral .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need to Google, dumbass!  I guarantee that I follow this topic much closer than you do.
> 
> When you can provide me about a couple hundred thousand examples, then perhaps you will have a point other than the one on your head!
> 
> In case you don't realize, there are douchebags, jerks, assholes, Communists, sexual deviants, perverts, and liberals everywhere!  Just deciding that you want them to go away doesn't cut it!  The fact that you broad brush everyone is a testament to your own lack of moral character.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> -------------------------------------------   i don't want them to go anywhere as i watch and see what they do as they pollute the youth.   I just advertise them as best i can as information to people that MIGHT be interested .   Yeah , you probably are 'mrobamas' RR. Admiral 'john kirby' or have kids that are teachers eh Admiral ??
Click to expand...


Is this thread about another poster personally, or his family, you hysterical troll?


----------



## pismoe

WorldWatcher said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Military had standards and may still have military discipline .  i do not know about todays Military standards where things are very , very different and PROBABLY much worse [assumed] than even 20 years ago .    Anyway . i post about sex predator and anti American teachers and i could google and get new examples every hour of every day .  I don't respect teacher because of the examples that i post and even the good Admiral admits too .   Teacher as a Class always want more money all the time and they want 'respect' but many of them are know nothing , anti American Sluts doing teacher work simply for the money and access to kids .    I never pointed my finger at YOU   WWatcher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say you did point a finger at me.  I'm just pointing out two things:
> 
> 1.  The hypocrisy of not applying the same standard.
> 
> 2.  How dumb it is to apply the action of a few bad apples to literally millions of service member or teachers.
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...

-------------------------------   i thought that i was talking to MaryAnn , edited her name out and then addressed YOU so i apologize .    Hey look WW , I think that most youngers , teachers , politicians and most all youngsters , millenials , liberals , hip hop types , mrobama voters , hilary supporters are pretty nasty and thats just a General Rule that i live by .  Thing is , i watch and read the news , live life and i have 2 eyes that see what USA society is becoming  WWatcher.


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> the Taxpayer paid superintendent and administrators probably make the decision Admiral or the Teachers Unions and the Teacher probably plan and participate Admiral .




What a convincing "probably."


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Military had standards and may still have military discipline .  i do not know about todays Military standards where things are very , very different and PROBABLY much worse [assumed] than even 20 years ago .    Anyway . i post about sex predator and anti American teachers and i could google and get new examples every hour of every day .  I don't respect teacher because of the examples that i post and even the good Admiral admits too .   Teacher as a Class always want more money all the time and they want 'respect' but many of them are know nothing , anti American Sluts doing teacher work simply for the money and access to kids .    I never pointed my finger at YOU   WWatcher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say you did point a finger at me.  I'm just pointing out two things:
> 
> 1.  The hypocrisy of not applying the same standard.
> 
> 2.  How dumb it is to apply the action of a few bad apples to literally millions of service member or teachers.
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> -------------------------------   i thought that i was talking to MaryAnn , edited her name out and then addressed YOU so i apologize .    Hey look WW , I think that most youngers , teachers , politicians and most all youngsters , millenials , liberals , hip hop types , mrobama voters , hilary supporters are pretty nasty and thats just a General Rule that i live by .  Thing is , i watch and read the news , live life and i have 2 eyes that see what USA society is becoming  WWatcher.
Click to expand...



You forgot to yell "Get off my lawn!" You see what you _want_ to see.


----------



## Two Thumbs

America used to have top rated education.

Then leftists claimed they could fix it.


We need to learn that leftists only break things then claim that only they can fix what they broke.


get them OUT of education, they only care about themselves.


----------



## WorldWatcher

pismoe said:


> -------------------------------   i thought that i was talking to MaryAnn , edited her name out and then addressed YOU so i apologize .    Hey look WW , I think that most youngers , teachers , politicians and most all youngsters , millenials , liberals , hip hop types , mrobama voters , hilary supporters are pretty nasty and thats just a General Rule that i live by .  Thing is , i watch and read the news , live life and i have 2 eyes that see what USA society is becoming  WWatcher.




I feel sorry for you and your world view.


>>>>


----------



## initforme

Well two thumbs america is all about taking care of oneself first then ones family.  Its a dog eat dog competitive society.  How about teaching that?  God and family.  Nothing else competes with those nor will be considered once one turns 18.  Spending a bunch of time on history will only set a person behind.   If american parents want things fixed the first place they need to look is in the mirror.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

HenryBHough said:


> I think back on my elementary school principal of 50+ years ago.
> 
> She was terminally Irish, terminally Catholic (the Roman variety) and terminally Democrat.
> 
> She hammered into us that if America ever allowed the federal government to contribute even one penny toward education there would be no more education - only indoctrination.
> 
> She's dead now and probably a good thing that she didn't live to see this cluster-fuck we now call "education".
> 
> Now re-read; she was a strongly left-leaning DEMOCRAT....though, in fairness, that was in the days when there was an actual DemocratIC Party and JFK was still acceptable to the party elite.



Since the federal government only contributes funds for the poor and special education, how do they require this widespread indoctrination?  This so-called indoctrination is nothing more than a conservative fantasy espoused by education bashers except in states dominated by liberal governments.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger
> 
> New York City pays a total of $30,000,000 per year in wages for teachers sitting in rubber rooms.
> Fix the unions, then perhaps the system can afford to pay teachers better.



That is NYC's problem.  Not yours.


----------



## initforme

5 minutes per day on world history...10 on american history is more than enough. Those don't lead to 6 figure jobs and less than that is unacceptable as a goal.


----------



## Unkotare

initforme said:


> ...... Spending a bunch of time on history will only set a person behind.   ......




???????????????????


----------



## pismoe

WorldWatcher said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------   i thought that i was talking to MaryAnn , edited her name out and then addressed YOU so i apologize .    Hey look WW , I think that most youngers , teachers , politicians and most all youngsters , millenials , liberals , hip hop types , mrobama voters , hilary supporters are pretty nasty and thats just a General Rule that i live by .  Thing is , i watch and read the news , live life and i have 2 eyes that see what USA society is becoming  WWatcher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel sorry for you and your world view.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...

-----------------------------------------   yeah , well thanks but hey its lots of fun pointing out the defectives in society.    After all its fun thinking about where things are headed then forming an opinion of where things are headed and then seeing if i was correct .    I mean , hey , as your screen name implies you do the same thing except you wear Rose Tinted 'coke bottle' type glasses and you have only one halfway good eye WWatcher ,


----------



## Two Thumbs

initforme said:


> Well two thumbs *america is all about taking care of oneself first then ones family.  Its a dog eat dog competitive society. * How about teaching that?  God and family.  Nothing else competes with those nor will be considered once one turns 18.  Spending a bunch of time on history will only set a person behind.   If american parents want things fixed the first place they need to look is in the mirror.


uhm, no.


----------



## initforme

All 3 of my kids had a great public education.  I never saw one speck of this phantom indoctrination.  Not a one of them hung around, worked a low paying job, or joined the forces.  They went to college well prepared and now are very successful.


----------



## DGS49

When I was growing up in the '50's, the quality of teachers was quite high, generally, and the academic results were exemplary, compared to today.  And yet teachers made a relative pittance.  Meaningful discipline had a lot to do with that, but thanks to the ACLU and its Fellow Travelers public school discipline is now an unfunny joke.

How did teachers in My Day "manage"?  Many were married, and the combined two incomes equalled a tolerable household income.  Many were single and remained "at home," at first at their parents pleasure, and ultimately, taking care of elderly parents.  Some were single, and just toughed it out.  Obviously, many would-be teachers chose another career that was more lucrative.  More power to 'em.

But it was never a problem finding teachers who were willing to sign on, and who had the paper credentials required.  Especially when teaching conferred a Vietnam draft deferment.  Wink, wink.

Today, many colleges and universities pay their "adjunct" teachers a laughable pittance, but have no trouble filling the positions. Often, the adjuncts are more qualified and better teachers than the full time instructors and professors, because the adjuncts are actually working in their fields, day after day.

But those who want to support themselves as adjuncts are finding it near impossible, and want to form unions to force the colleges to pay them a "living wage."  Should the colleges be forced to pay MUCH MORE THAN THE MARKETPLACE demands to suit these people?  Why?  Maybe they should find something else to do to support themselves.  Actually, not many people in this world do "what they love" to put a roof over their heads.  We do what we must.


----------



## initforme

Oh so one should depend on others to take care of them?  I see.  And yes competition for high paying jobs is huge.  Where have youy been.  Our whole society is based on out competing the others.


----------



## Unkotare

initforme said:


> 5 minutes per day on world history...10 on american history is more than enough. .........




????????????????????????????????????


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flash said:


> My wife was a teacher for 29 years.
> 
> Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.
> 
> When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.
> 
> Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.
> 
> Never once complained about the pay.
> 
> Suck it up Buttercups.



What did she teach?  P.E.?

Either that or she must have been a lousy teacher.  Was this was 20 years ago?

Your wife never attended a sporting event, play, or exhibition on the weekend?  Never had to grade papers?  Never had to enter grades into a computer?  Never had to plan a lesson or a unit?


----------



## Two Thumbs

My HS American history teacher blew through the Korean war in a day so he would have time to brag about what a lying, thieving, draft dodging coward he was


oh and spend a week on Vietnam


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger
> 
> New York City pays a total of $30,000,000 per year in wages for teachers sitting in rubber rooms.
> Fix the unions, then perhaps the system can afford to pay teachers better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is NYC's problem.  Not yours.
Click to expand...

This happens all over the nation


----------



## Unkotare

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger
> 
> New York City pays a total of $30,000,000 per year in wages for teachers sitting in rubber rooms.
> Fix the unions, then perhaps the system can afford to pay teachers better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is NYC's problem.  Not yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This happens all over the nation
Click to expand...



No, it doesn't.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nonsense.
Click to expand...

Sorry you don’t like it.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger
> 
> New York City pays a total of $30,000,000 per year in wages for teachers sitting in rubber rooms.
> Fix the unions, then perhaps the system can afford to pay teachers better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is NYC's problem.  Not yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This happens all over the nation
Click to expand...


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry you don’t like it.
Click to expand...


So what is your expertise in this area?  Many of us responding to you are teachers.  Apparently you are spewing BS to make yourself feel better about your miserable life.


----------



## pismoe

two teachers , so you did pretty well at the Government and Union jobs eh  Admiral / teacher eh ??


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry you don’t like it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what is your expertise in this area?  Many of us responding to you are teachers.  Apparently you are spewing BS to make yourself feel better about your miserable life.
Click to expand...


So I am supposed to bow down now and say "hail to the teachers"?
The teaching profession is the same as any other profession...there are good employees and lousy employees. Just because a person is a teacher, doesn't mean they are automatically just that awesome.
   I had wonderful teachers in my life, and more than a few truly awful ones. And nothing is done about those truly awful ones. In system after system. 
What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.
  When my kids went through school everyone knew there were teachers you did NOT want your kids to go to. Teachers teaching the same class as others only their students get poorer grades and struggle to pass placement test for college. But the system does nothing.
  If you think you are going to sit there and convince America that there is nothing wrong with the teachers union - you are going to be woefully disappointed.
   I had teachers that even now at 53, I still think about fondly. Not just very good at what they do, but were really nice people. My two kids had teachers that I appreciated very much. And I have ZERO problem with teachers getting paid better, as long as the teachers unions and the system cleans themselves up and does something about bad teachers.
As a teacher, I cannot comprehend why you would deny their existence.


----------



## Unkotare

iamwhatiseem said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry you don’t like it.
Click to expand...



Sorry you made it up.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers

Bad Teachers | HuffPost

U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries

Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers

Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired

Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job

20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -

There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work

*
 You guys are living in a bubble.*


----------



## Unkotare

iamwhatiseem said:


> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......




In other words, NOTHING.


----------



## JoeMoma

Unkotare said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a problem as educational success  has been measured for far too long based upon performance of students. This is too easily manipulated. As a result our schools have been 'dumbed down' ridiculously to accommodate the slowest.
> Doubt me? Take the time to peruse 19th and early 20th century textbooks. Students were required to critically think about the material presented to them. School today is a joke...many students agree.
> High school is just too easy, students say
> What we need to do is to raise the standards required of students. If you press them to strive they will. You cannot expect to produce future leaders by hamstringing the masses for the benefit of the stupid or lazy. As it sits, K-12 in the US is a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...

My opinion.   I am the link.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
Click to expand...


In other words...you like to bury your head in the sand.
Sorry, but if you are going to try and deny that there are bad teachers....you're in denial, not me.


----------



## Unkotare

JoeMoma said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
Click to expand...



You didn't state an opinion. You claimed something as fact.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
Click to expand...


Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.

We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers

Bad Teachers | HuffPost

U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries

Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers

Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired

Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job

20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -

There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work

*
You guys are living in a bubble.*


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry you don’t like it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what is your expertise in this area?  Many of us responding to you are teachers.  Apparently you are spewing BS to make yourself feel better about your miserable life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I am supposed to bow down now and say "hail to the teachers"?
> The teaching profession is the same as any other profession...there are good employees and lousy employees. Just because a person is a teacher, doesn't mean they are automatically just that awesome.
> I had wonderful teachers in my life, and more than a few truly awful ones. And nothing is done about those truly awful ones. In system after system.
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.
> When my kids went through school everyone knew there were teachers you did NOT want your kids to go to. Teachers teaching the same class as others only their students get poorer grades and struggle to pass placement test for college. But the system does nothing.
> If you think you are going to sit there and convince America that there is nothing wrong with the teachers union - you are going to be woefully disappointed.
> I had teachers that even now at 53, I still think about fondly. Not just very good at what they do, but were really nice people. My two kids had teachers that I appreciated very much. And I have ZERO problem with teachers getting paid better, as long as the teachers unions and the system cleans themselves up and does something about bad teachers.
> As a teacher, I cannot comprehend why you would deny their existence.
Click to expand...


I never denied their existence. You are using a broad brush to paint all teachers in a negative light.  Just go back and read your posts.

You may be able to read, but have you ever considered the source of your information and the locations where all of the negative stories originate?  Of course you haven't because that destroys your trolling!


----------



## Unkotare

iamwhatiseem said:


> [..... if you are going to try and deny that there are bad teachers........




Careful moving those goalposts. You might pull something.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*



Let's see, you have a blog, several outdated stories that broad brush removing bad teachers despite having 51 different procedures at a minimum, and several posts about New York.

Got anything that is really relevant?  Of course not!

Your don't even have a bubble because it burst a long time ago,


----------



## initforme

There are bad employees in all professions.  That is a small percentage.  If you think its that good then become a teacher.  Why attack teachers?  Makes zero sense.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

JoeMoma said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> In our state there is a rudimentary bar that students must pass. The school is evaluated on how many students you can get over the bar
> 
> To me, if you can take a student who has little promise in life and teach him basic functionality......you have accomplished a lot
> 
> 19th and early 20th century schooling was a sham. More emphasis on memorization of irrelevant facts and rote learning than critical thinking
> 
> I think today’s students are more creative
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
Click to expand...


Your opinion is biased by ignorance.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words...you like to bury your head in the sand.
> Sorry, but if you are going to try and deny that there are bad teachers....you're in denial, not me.
Click to expand...


Who said that there were not bad teachers?


----------



## JoeMoma

Unkotare said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> 
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't state an opinion. You claimed something as fact.
Click to expand...

It’s my opinion, which I beleive to be true.    Sorry about not prefacing my post with IMHO.

When I was in HS 35 years ago, an A was 95 - 100, a F was any score below 70.  Today in the same state 90 - 100 is an A, 60 - 70 is a D, and anything below 60 is a F.


----------



## Unkotare

JoeMoma said:


> .....
> 
> When I was in HS 35 years ago, an A was 95 - 100, a F was any score below 70.  Today in the same state 90 - 100 is an A, 60 - 70 is a D, and anything below 60 is a F.




Link?


----------



## JoeMoma

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are, so much has changed in the Schools today. They are building Robots in High Schools now. The competition is fierce.
> 
> But the same can be said of Community Colleges as the work force changes the Schools,do too.
> 
> 
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
Click to expand...

Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.

Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.


----------



## Unkotare

JoeMoma said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> 
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
Click to expand...



Who ever solves algebra word problems two weeks after graduating from high school?


----------



## Flash

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife was a teacher for 29 years.
> 
> Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.
> 
> When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.
> 
> Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.
> 
> Never once complained about the pay.
> 
> Suck it up Buttercups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did she teach?  P.E.?
> 
> Either that or she must have been a lousy teacher.  Was this was 20 years ago?
> 
> Your wife never attended a sporting event, play, or exhibition on the weekend?  Never had to grade papers?  Never had to enter grades into a computer?  Never had to plan a lesson or a unit?
Click to expand...



Sorry Moon Bat but she was a great teacher.  She won an award from the Jimmy Carter Administration for being a good teacher and she went to a White House ceremony to get the award.   The award was for teaching disadvantage kids.  You know, the hard stuff.

What else you got Moon Bat?


----------



## JoeMoma

Unkotare said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> When I was in HS 35 years ago, an A was 95 - 100, a F was any score below 70.  Today in the same state 90 - 100 is an A, 60 - 70 is a D, and anything below 60 is a F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...

Sorry, not everything has a link.  You can easily find the current grading scale for South Carolina for today using google.  Finding a link for what it was 35 years ago is probably much more difficult.  Beleive it or not, the grade scale back then predates the internet as we know it today.  It will also be difficult to find YouTube videos of the events in the high schools 35 years ago.  
I did make a mistake with my above statements.  60 -69 is a D today. 70 is the beginning of C territory (70-79).


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

JoeMoma said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Up until the 1940s, most kids never went past eighth grade
> 
> 
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
Click to expand...


Proofs are no longer taught because they are unnecessary.

I like to say to my students, "Life is a word problem."  It may not be algebra, but all problems are word problems.


----------



## JoeMoma

Unkotare said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who ever solves algebra word problems two weeks after graduating from high school?
Click to expand...

My statement was somewhat hypothetical.  It’s just a way of expressing that IMHO many students are passed through courses without being proficient with the minimal basic content.


----------



## JoeMoma

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Proofs are no longer taught because they are unnecessary.
> 
> I like to say to my students, "Life is a word problem."  It may not be algebra, but all problems are word problems.
Click to expand...

Are you saying proofs in geometry are not part of your standards in your state?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flash said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife was a teacher for 29 years.
> 
> Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.
> 
> When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.
> 
> Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.
> 
> Never once complained about the pay.
> 
> Suck it up Buttercups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did she teach?  P.E.?
> 
> Either that or she must have been a lousy teacher.  Was this was 20 years ago?
> 
> Your wife never attended a sporting event, play, or exhibition on the weekend?  Never had to grade papers?  Never had to enter grades into a computer?  Never had to plan a lesson or a unit?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Moon Bat but she was a great teacher.  She won an award from the Jimmy Carter Administration for being a good teacher and she went to a White House ceremony to get the award.   The award was for teaching disadvantage kids.  You know, the hard stuff.
> 
> What else you got Moon Bat?
Click to expand...


I am a Moon Bat, but your wife received an award from an administration that was in office 40 years ago?

I graduated from high school 40 years ago!  I guess your job as a typewriter repairman made for a good income.

Totally clueless doesn't even begin to describe how out of touch you are.

I have been in the classroom since 1996.  Nothing today compares to when I first started.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

JoeMoma said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Proofs are no longer taught because they are unnecessary.
> 
> I like to say to my students, "Life is a word problem."  It may not be algebra, but all problems are word problems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying proofs in geometry are not part of your standards in your state?
Click to expand...


As far as I am aware, they have not been a part of any standards I have taught in about 15 years.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

JoeMoma said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who ever solves algebra word problems two weeks after graduating from high school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My statement was somewhat hypothetical.  It’s just a way of expressing that IMHO many students are passed through courses without being proficient with the minimal basic content.
Click to expand...


Your hypothesis requires a proof, does it not?


----------



## JoeMoma

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today’s college BA degree is the new high school diploma.  There was a time that a high school diploma meant something.  Today, most all high schools have a goal of a high graduation rate which on the surface makes sense, however many kids are given passing grades for classes that they don’t really deserve to pass in part to meet the graduation rate goal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Proofs are no longer taught because they are unnecessary.
> 
> I like to say to my students, "Life is a word problem."  It may not be algebra, but all problems are word problems.
Click to expand...

The Life word problem may have little to do with math as presented in high school for some people.


----------



## JoeMoma

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion.   I am the link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who ever solves algebra word problems two weeks after graduating from high school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My statement was somewhat hypothetical.  It’s just a way of expressing that IMHO many students are passed through courses without being proficient with the minimal basic content.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your hypothesis requires a proof, does it not?
Click to expand...

Well, I’m not going to prove it here on USMB.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

JoeMoma said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> When I was in HS 35 years ago, an A was 95 - 100, a F was any score below 70.  Today in the same state 90 - 100 is an A, 60 - 70 is a D, and anything below 60 is a F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, not everything has a link.  You can easily find the current grading scale for South Carolina for today using google.  Finding a link for what it was 35 years ago is probably much more difficult.  Beleive it or not, the grade scale back then predates the internet as we know it today.  It will also be difficult to find YouTube videos of the events in the high schools 35 years ago.
> I did make a mistake with my above statements.  60 -69 is a D today. 70 is the beginning of C territory (70-79).
Click to expand...


Those grading scales are the result of parent input and standardizing across all states for fairness in college applications.  It has nothing to with student performance.

I can make test that requires more knowledge to achieve a score of 70 than you can that you would score as a 95.  Any teacher can do that.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

JoeMoma said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion is biased by ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who ever solves algebra word problems two weeks after graduating from high school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My statement was somewhat hypothetical.  It’s just a way of expressing that IMHO many students are passed through courses without being proficient with the minimal basic content.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your hypothesis requires a proof, does it not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I’m not going to prove it here on USMB.
Click to expand...


Mainly, you can't prove something that does not exist.


----------



## Flash

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife was a teacher for 29 years.
> 
> Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.
> 
> When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.
> 
> Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.
> 
> Never once complained about the pay.
> 
> Suck it up Buttercups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did she teach?  P.E.?
> 
> Either that or she must have been a lousy teacher.  Was this was 20 years ago?
> 
> Your wife never attended a sporting event, play, or exhibition on the weekend?  Never had to grade papers?  Never had to enter grades into a computer?  Never had to plan a lesson or a unit?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Moon Bat but she was a great teacher.  She won an award from the Jimmy Carter Administration for being a good teacher and she went to a White House ceremony to get the award.   The award was for teaching disadvantage kids.  You know, the hard stuff.
> 
> What else you got Moon Bat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am a Moon Bat, but your wife received an award from an administration that was in office 40 years ago?
> 
> I graduated from high school 40 years ago!  I guess your job as a typewriter repairman made for a good income.
> 
> Totally clueless doesn't even begin to describe how out of touch you are.
> 
> I have been in the classroom since 1996.  Nothing today compares to when I first started.
Click to expand...



Not all teachers are Left Wing assholes like you Moon Bat.  Some actually have good conservative values.

I was really proud of my wife back in the 1970s. 

When she first started teaching she joined the teacher's union because they had good liability insurance.  However, she found out they were using her dues money to support filthy ass Democrat candidates.  She quit the union and got professional liability coverage under our homeowners insurance.  Thank god that Florida is a right to work state so she could tell the filthy union to go shove it.

Teaching was a good way for her to help the family income by earning enough money to pay our combined Federal State and local taxes each year.

If the stupid cost of government wasn't so high she wouldn't have had to be a working Mom just so our family could get ahead..


----------



## JoeMoma

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> When I was in HS 35 years ago, an A was 95 - 100, a F was any score below 70.  Today in the same state 90 - 100 is an A, 60 - 70 is a D, and anything below 60 is a F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, not everything has a link.  You can easily find the current grading scale for South Carolina for today using google.  Finding a link for what it was 35 years ago is probably much more difficult.  Beleive it or not, the grade scale back then predates the internet as we know it today.  It will also be difficult to find YouTube videos of the events in the high schools 35 years ago.
> I did make a mistake with my above statements.  60 -69 is a D today. 70 is the beginning of C territory (70-79).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those grading scales are the result of parent input and standardizing across all states for fairness in college applications.  It has nothing to with student performance.
> 
> I can make test that requires more knowledge to achieve a score of 70 than you can that you would score as a 95.  Any teacher can do that.
Click to expand...

I agree.  Teachers can do that.  However they don’t.  It’s been my experience that teachers attempt to make the difficulty of their tests so that most all of the students in their class has an opportunity to pass the class if the give a good effort and try to learn.


----------



## JoeMoma

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that all the students that graduate from your school are proficient in at Algebra (I and II ) and Geometry (with proofs)?  How about Chemistry?  Today we are pushing kids ( many with IEPs) in these classes that can hardly add positive and negative numbers without a calculator and expect them to keep pace with all the rest of the kids.  Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of students that are doing great, but there are plenty being pushed through that will not be able to solve an algebra word problem two weeks after graduation from high school.
> 
> Of course, maybe it’s always been this way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who ever solves algebra word problems two weeks after graduating from high school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My statement was somewhat hypothetical.  It’s just a way of expressing that IMHO many students are passed through courses without being proficient with the minimal basic content.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your hypothesis requires a proof, does it not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I’m not going to prove it here on USMB.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mainly, you can't prove something that does not exist.
Click to expand...

I don’t have a time machine to go back 35 years ago and gather evidence.    
I don’t have a problem with you disagreeing with me.


----------



## OldLady

I just wish everyone would respect the job teachers try to do.   This terrible slamming of teachers as Marxists and moral degenerates feeding propaganda to students is so OUT THERE, but it is getting pushed every night on Fox News and the students are getting slammed too.  It's revolting and discouraging and so far from reality.

Smells like Russians, to me.


----------



## hunarcy

DGS49 said:


> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth. * The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.*



That is incorrect.  Fewer and fewer people are going into teaching due to the attitude of ignorant people who want to vilify teachers, show them disrespect and fail to support them.  I understand that no one wants their taxes to go up, but in my state, the Legislature has undermined the retirement system, raised premiums on insurance  on people who have not been given a raise in 10 years.  

And teachers DON'T get June July and August.  There's training to be done,  classes to take and most schools require teachers to go back in mid-August to ensure the school is ready to open.  

Teachers know they are not going to become rich as educators and most do not mind that.  But, they want to be able to pay their bills and provide for their children and if you can find fault with that, you're the same sort of buffoon that thinks because he went to school, he knows all there is to know about schools.


----------



## Unkotare

JoeMoma said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> When I was in HS 35 years ago, an A was 95 - 100, a F was any score below 70.  Today in the same state 90 - 100 is an A, 60 - 70 is a D, and anything below 60 is a F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, not everything has a link.  .......
Click to expand...



Hmmmmmmm.....


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Flash said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife was a teacher for 29 years.
> 
> Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.
> 
> When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.
> 
> Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.
> 
> Never once complained about the pay.
> 
> Suck it up Buttercups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did she teach?  P.E.?
> 
> Either that or she must have been a lousy teacher.  Was this was 20 years ago?
> 
> Your wife never attended a sporting event, play, or exhibition on the weekend?  Never had to grade papers?  Never had to enter grades into a computer?  Never had to plan a lesson or a unit?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Moon Bat but she was a great teacher.  She won an award from the Jimmy Carter Administration for being a good teacher and she went to a White House ceremony to get the award.   The award was for teaching disadvantage kids.  You know, the hard stuff.
> 
> What else you got Moon Bat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am a Moon Bat, but your wife received an award from an administration that was in office 40 years ago?
> 
> I graduated from high school 40 years ago!  I guess your job as a typewriter repairman made for a good income.
> 
> Totally clueless doesn't even begin to describe how out of touch you are.
> 
> I have been in the classroom since 1996.  Nothing today compares to when I first started.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not all teachers are Left Wing assholes like you Moon Bat.  Some actually have good conservative values.
> 
> I was really proud of my wife back in the 1970s.
> 
> When she first started teaching she joined the teacher's union because they had good liability insurance.  However, she found out they were using her dues money to support filthy ass Democrat candidates.  She quit the union and got professional liability coverage under our homeowners insurance.  Thank god that Florida is a right to work state so she could tell the filthy union to go shove it.
> 
> Teaching was a good way for her to help the family income by earning enough money to pay our combined Federal State and local taxes each year.
> 
> If the stupid cost of government wasn't so high she wouldn't have had to be a working Mom just so our family could get ahead..
Click to expand...


You obviously don't know me if you think I am a liberal.  I simply hate the stupidity posted by conservatives who don't know Jack Schitt about education except their own failures to become educated.

They think New York, Chicago and California represent the entire education system in the US.  They think a teacher can commit murder and stay on the job!  They think that reading in a complicated language like English is equal to much simpler languages all over the world.  They ignore the fact that our schools that are full of students whose first language is not English should have no impact on test scores.  They think unions should concern themselves with students and not teachers who pay their union dues.

Any more lies that conservatives tell about education that you want to know?


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> .......They think that reading in a complicated language like English is equal to much simpler languages all over the world. ......





???????????????????????


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......They think that reading in a complicated language like English is equal to much simpler languages all over the world. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????????
Click to expand...


You have never seen reading skills compared between the US and other countries?


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry you don’t like it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what is your expertise in this area?  Many of us responding to you are teachers.  Apparently you are spewing BS to make yourself feel better about your miserable life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I am supposed to bow down now and say "hail to the teachers"?
> The teaching profession is the same as any other profession...there are good employees and lousy employees. Just because a person is a teacher, doesn't mean they are automatically just that awesome.
> I had wonderful teachers in my life, and more than a few truly awful ones. And nothing is done about those truly awful ones. In system after system.
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.
> When my kids went through school everyone knew there were teachers you did NOT want your kids to go to. Teachers teaching the same class as others only their students get poorer grades and struggle to pass placement test for college. But the system does nothing.
> If you think you are going to sit there and convince America that there is nothing wrong with the teachers union - you are going to be woefully disappointed.
> I had teachers that even now at 53, I still think about fondly. Not just very good at what they do, but were really nice people. My two kids had teachers that I appreciated very much. And I have ZERO problem with teachers getting paid better, as long as the teachers unions and the system cleans themselves up and does something about bad teachers.
> As a teacher, I cannot comprehend why you would deny their existence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never denied their existence. You are using a broad brush to paint all teachers in a negative light.  Just go back and read your posts.
> 
> You may be able to read, but have you ever considered the source of your information and the locations where all of the negative stories originate?  Of course you haven't because that destroys your trolling!
Click to expand...

Nah...you’re just way too sensitive. Any negative statement about your profession and you go off the deep end and want to label them a hater. You also need to use the reading comprehension you expect from your students and noticed I also had plenty of compliments


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......They think that reading in a complicated language like English is equal to much simpler languages all over the world. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have never seen reading skills compared between the US and other countries?
Click to expand...



Your assumptions about comparative linguistics are just that.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry you don’t like it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what is your expertise in this area?  Many of us responding to you are teachers.  Apparently you are spewing BS to make yourself feel better about your miserable life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I am supposed to bow down now and say "hail to the teachers"?
> The teaching profession is the same as any other profession...there are good employees and lousy employees. Just because a person is a teacher, doesn't mean they are automatically just that awesome.
> I had wonderful teachers in my life, and more than a few truly awful ones. And nothing is done about those truly awful ones. In system after system.
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.
> When my kids went through school everyone knew there were teachers you did NOT want your kids to go to. Teachers teaching the same class as others only their students get poorer grades and struggle to pass placement test for college. But the system does nothing.
> If you think you are going to sit there and convince America that there is nothing wrong with the teachers union - you are going to be woefully disappointed.
> I had teachers that even now at 53, I still think about fondly. Not just very good at what they do, but were really nice people. My two kids had teachers that I appreciated very much. And I have ZERO problem with teachers getting paid better, as long as the teachers unions and the system cleans themselves up and does something about bad teachers.
> As a teacher, I cannot comprehend why you would deny their existence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never denied their existence. You are using a broad brush to paint all teachers in a negative light.  Just go back and read your posts.
> 
> You may be able to read, but have you ever considered the source of your information and the locations where all of the negative stories originate?  Of course you haven't because that destroys your trolling!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nah...you’re just way too sensitive. Any negative statement about your profession and you go off the deep end and want to label them a hater. You also need to use the reading comprehension you expect from your students and noticed I also had plenty of compliments
Click to expand...


Not true.  You have shown yourself to be the same type of hater as many that I have on ignore for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty.

BTW, you are not qualified to assess me.  That is another concept you haters cannot understand.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......They think that reading in a complicated language like English is equal to much simpler languages all over the world. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have never seen reading skills compared between the US and other countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Your assumptions about comparative linguistics are just that.
Click to expand...


I don't want to argue with you, but your bias is showing.


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......They think that reading in a complicated language like English is equal to much simpler languages all over the world. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have never seen reading skills compared between the US and other countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Your assumptions about comparative linguistics are just that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't want to argue with you, but your bias is showing.
Click to expand...



What bias would that be?


----------



## del

we should be like finland

/thread


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......They think that reading in a complicated language like English is equal to much simpler languages all over the world. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have never seen reading skills compared between the US and other countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Your assumptions about comparative linguistics are just that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't want to argue with you, but your bias is showing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What bias would that be?
Click to expand...


If you don't know, that is your problem.  Let's try to slay the dragons and leave the lizards alone.


----------



## del

^
nothing


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have never seen reading skills compared between the US and other countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Your assumptions about comparative linguistics are just that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't want to argue with you, but your bias is showing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What bias would that be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you don't know, that is your problem. ........
Click to expand...



It's ok, you can tell me. It won't make the "you teachers have it soooo easy!" morons any more difficult to knock down.


----------



## Unkotare

del said:


> we should be like finland




But I don't have fins!


----------



## del

Unkotare said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> we should be like finland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I don't have fins!
Click to expand...


you don't need fins to teach in finland- you just need to graduate in the top 10% of your high school class, complete a minimum of six years of college, two years of in classroom training and love to teach.


----------



## Unkotare

del said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> we should be like finland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I don't have fins!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you don't need fins to teach in finland- you just need to graduate in the top 10% of your high school class, complete a minimum of six years of college, two years of in classroom training and love to teach.
Click to expand...



But how would I swim to work without fins?


----------



## del

Unkotare said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> we should be like finland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I don't have fins!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you don't need fins to teach in finland- you just need to graduate in the top 10% of your high school class, complete a minimum of six years of college, two years of in classroom training and love to teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> But how would I swim to work without fins?
Click to expand...


i guess you'd die


----------



## Unkotare

del said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> we should be like finland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I don't have fins!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you don't need fins to teach in finland- you just need to graduate in the top 10% of your high school class, complete a minimum of six years of college, two years of in classroom training and love to teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> But how would I swim to work without fins?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i guess you'd die
Click to expand...



Well, that's something.


----------



## initforme

I notice that not one pister/basher puts one ounce of responsibility in the students.  So if a kid is a complete truant/ disruption and won't do an ounce of work and fall its the fault of the teacher.  I believe some of you think all kids just anxiously await to be taught and spend time working at it.  What about the growing percentage who do nothing..no studying no work turn in total disengaged.  The ones who bring your beloved test scores down?  Its the teachers fault correct?  You are nuts.


----------



## JoeMoma

initforme said:


> I notice that not one pister/basher puts one ounce of responsibility in the students.  So if a kid is a complete truant/ disruption and won't do an ounce of work and fall its the fault of the teacher.  I believe some of you think all kids just anxiously await to be taught and spend time working at it.  What about the growing percentage who do nothing..no studying no work turn in total disengaged.  The ones who bring your beloved test scores down?  Its the teachers fault correct?  You are nuts.


A large percentage of students don’t see the value of education, especially in HS.  They are there because attendance is mandatory.  The state has decided the topics that the student is supposed to be taught.  It’s kind of like trying to get a two year old to eat food that he has already decided that he does not like.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry you don’t like it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your expertise in this area?  Many of us responding to you are teachers.  Apparently you are spewing BS to make yourself feel better about your miserable life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I am supposed to bow down now and say "hail to the teachers"?
> The teaching profession is the same as any other profession...there are good employees and lousy employees. Just because a person is a teacher, doesn't mean they are automatically just that awesome.
> I had wonderful teachers in my life, and more than a few truly awful ones. And nothing is done about those truly awful ones. In system after system.
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.
> When my kids went through school everyone knew there were teachers you did NOT want your kids to go to. Teachers teaching the same class as others only their students get poorer grades and struggle to pass placement test for college. But the system does nothing.
> If you think you are going to sit there and convince America that there is nothing wrong with the teachers union - you are going to be woefully disappointed.
> I had teachers that even now at 53, I still think about fondly. Not just very good at what they do, but were really nice people. My two kids had teachers that I appreciated very much. And I have ZERO problem with teachers getting paid better, as long as the teachers unions and the system cleans themselves up and does something about bad teachers.
> As a teacher, I cannot comprehend why you would deny their existence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never denied their existence. You are using a broad brush to paint all teachers in a negative light.  Just go back and read your posts.
> 
> You may be able to read, but have you ever considered the source of your information and the locations where all of the negative stories originate?  Of course you haven't because that destroys your trolling!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nah...you’re just way too sensitive. Any negative statement about your profession and you go off the deep end and want to label them a hater. You also need to use the reading comprehension you expect from your students and noticed I also had plenty of compliments
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not true.  You have shown yourself to be the same type of hater as many that I have on ignore for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty.
> 
> BTW, you are not qualified to assess me.  That is another concept you haters cannot understand.
Click to expand...

Haha.....holier than though,  haughty faculty lounge type of teacher eh?


----------



## Disir

Kentucky and Oklahoma. Arizona next!  Yes, indeedy. It's happening.


----------



## initforme

Good.  Stand up for youselves because I'm America nobody else will.


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> two teachers , so you did pretty well at the Government and Union jobs eh  Admiral / teacher eh ??



You do know you could do the same IF you acquired the Education to be one?


----------



## pismoe

generally speaking i do not think that teachers of the last 30 - 40 years are well educated MaryAnn .


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your expertise in this area?  Many of us responding to you are teachers.  Apparently you are spewing BS to make yourself feel better about your miserable life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I am supposed to bow down now and say "hail to the teachers"?
> The teaching profession is the same as any other profession...there are good employees and lousy employees. Just because a person is a teacher, doesn't mean they are automatically just that awesome.
> I had wonderful teachers in my life, and more than a few truly awful ones. And nothing is done about those truly awful ones. In system after system.
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.
> When my kids went through school everyone knew there were teachers you did NOT want your kids to go to. Teachers teaching the same class as others only their students get poorer grades and struggle to pass placement test for college. But the system does nothing.
> If you think you are going to sit there and convince America that there is nothing wrong with the teachers union - you are going to be woefully disappointed.
> I had teachers that even now at 53, I still think about fondly. Not just very good at what they do, but were really nice people. My two kids had teachers that I appreciated very much. And I have ZERO problem with teachers getting paid better, as long as the teachers unions and the system cleans themselves up and does something about bad teachers.
> As a teacher, I cannot comprehend why you would deny their existence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never denied their existence. You are using a broad brush to paint all teachers in a negative light.  Just go back and read your posts.
> 
> You may be able to read, but have you ever considered the source of your information and the locations where all of the negative stories originate?  Of course you haven't because that destroys your trolling!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nah...you’re just way too sensitive. Any negative statement about your profession and you go off the deep end and want to label them a hater. You also need to use the reading comprehension you expect from your students and noticed I also had plenty of compliments
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not true.  You have shown yourself to be the same type of hater as many that I have on ignore for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty.
> 
> BTW, you are not qualified to assess me.  That is another concept you haters cannot understand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Haha.....holier than though,  haughty faculty lounge type of teacher eh?
Click to expand...


You apparently would not know a faculty lounge if someone locked you in it!  Lounge?  Folding chairs around a table to eat lunch.  That's about it!

It is a fact that you cannot assess me because you are an ignorant troll.  That is all.  Have a nice day!


----------



## pismoe

hey look , lots of people see what YOU teachers are and at least thats a start  Admiral Teacher !!


----------



## pismoe

you Teachers are not the Pillars of Society as you may have been seen in the past  Admiral Teacher !!


----------



## Wry Catcher

DGS49 said:


> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.



BULLSHIT

It's about the product, the education of the next generation.  

There is no doubt public education needs to be reinvented, but not by being destroyed, something the right wing has tried hard to do.  The elitists want their children subsidized, so they can attend a private school, charter school or religious school, where it is easy to kick out an unruly or slow student at their will.

Not so in the public school system, where once again the public sector is squeezed, and forced to do more with less.  When the more is less than expected, the call to cut funding and create vouchers for private schools limits funding again.

With the most false of pathos they claim this will help minority students who suffer and are held back by poorly operating public schools.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> You apparently would not know a faculty lounge if someone locked you in it!  Lounge?  Folding chairs around a table to eat lunch.  That's about it!
> 
> It is a fact that you cannot assess me because you are an ignorant troll.  That is all.  Have a nice day!



lol....ahhh... 
It's ok little buddy. I know, as a former teacher it is tough for you to deal with people who don't agree with you and, in your mind, not see you as intellectually superior.
It's a big world outside of your little classroom, believe it or not...we have opinions of our own out here.


----------



## initforme

Imagine people getting upset about a person making 35 grand.....too funny.  Tisk tisk. It's not a big issue to pay them a little more.  Oklahoma should be ashamed.


----------



## rightwinger

initforme said:


> Imagine people getting upset about a person making 35 grand.....too funny.  Tisk tisk. It's not a big issue to pay them a little more.  Oklahoma should be ashamed.


It is part of the Conservative playbook

Support unfettered accumulation of wealth for the one percent

Attack as excessive any wage earned by teachers, cops....even minimum wage jobs


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> You apparently would not know a faculty lounge if someone locked you in it!  Lounge?  Folding chairs around a table to eat lunch.  That's about it!
> 
> It is a fact that you cannot assess me because you are an ignorant troll.  That is all.  Have a nice day!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol....ahhh...
> It's ok little buddy. I know, as a former teacher it is tough for you to deal with people who don't agree with you and, in your mind, not see you as intellectually superior.
> It's a big world outside of your little classroom, believe it or not...we have opinions of our own out here.
Click to expand...


You have uninformed opinions based on lies that you have created to make yourself feel better.  THAT is your problem.

BTW, who said I was former?  I am substituting right now because no one in the private sector will hire me because I am much more qualified that the people interviewing me.  I am back in the classroom full time as of last week, but I don't get paid for any day we are off.  When my paycheck comes in 2 weeks, it will have 4 days pay, at about 1/3 my normal rate per day.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> BTW, who said I was former?  I am substituting right now because no one in the private sector will hire me because I am much more qualified that the people interviewing me.  I am back in the classroom full time as of last week, but I don't get paid for any day we are off.  When my paycheck comes in 2 weeks, it will have 4 days pay, at about 1/3 my normal rate per day.




You are just so awesome!!....we should all be groveling at your blessed feet!!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, who said I was former?  I am substituting right now because no one in the private sector will hire me because I am much more qualified that the people interviewing me.  I am back in the classroom full time as of last week, but I don't get paid for any day we are off.  When my paycheck comes in 2 weeks, it will have 4 days pay, at about 1/3 my normal rate per day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are just so awesome!!....we should all be groveling at your blessed feet!!
Click to expand...


No, just a little modicum of respect for all teachers would be sufficient.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, who said I was former?  I am substituting right now because no one in the private sector will hire me because I am much more qualified that the people interviewing me.  I am back in the classroom full time as of last week, but I don't get paid for any day we are off.  When my paycheck comes in 2 weeks, it will have 4 days pay, at about 1/3 my normal rate per day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are just so awesome!!....we should all be groveling at your blessed feet!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just a little modicum of respect for all teachers would be sufficient.
Click to expand...


What part of "wonderful, I appreciate, great people"...do you not understand?
Do you need to go back to school yourself?
Again, you're the one carrying a chip around on his shoulder, not me. 
You need to get over yourself and hopefully you can make a decent teacher also...because if these post are any indication of how you interact with students...you are a jerk.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, who said I was former?  I am substituting right now because no one in the private sector will hire me because I am much more qualified that the people interviewing me.  I am back in the classroom full time as of last week, but I don't get paid for any day we are off.  When my paycheck comes in 2 weeks, it will have 4 days pay, at about 1/3 my normal rate per day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are just so awesome!!....we should all be groveling at your blessed feet!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just a little modicum of respect for all teachers would be sufficient.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What part of "wonderful, I appreciate, great people"...do you not understand?
> Do you need to go back to school yourself?
> Again, you're the one carrying a chip around on his shoulder, not me.
> You need to get over yourself and hopefully you can make a decent teacher also...*because if these post are any indication of how you interact with students*...you are a jerk.
Click to expand...


My students are not idiots!  You, on the other hand, ...


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, who said I was former?  I am substituting right now because no one in the private sector will hire me because I am much more qualified that the people interviewing me.  I am back in the classroom full time as of last week, but I don't get paid for any day we are off.  When my paycheck comes in 2 weeks, it will have 4 days pay, at about 1/3 my normal rate per day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are just so awesome!!....we should all be groveling at your blessed feet!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just a little modicum of respect for all teachers would be sufficient.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What part of "wonderful, I appreciate, great people"...do you not understand?
> Do you need to go back to school yourself?
> Again, you're the one carrying a chip around on his shoulder, not me.
> You need to get over yourself and hopefully you can make a decent teacher also...*because if these post are any indication of how you interact with students*...you are a jerk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My students are not idiots!  You, on the other hand, ...
Click to expand...


I can say one thing you _are_ entertaining!....


----------



## pismoe

teachers are pretty much full of themselves , they think that they are Special .   Course i think teachers do pretty poorly when it come to teaching .   ---   Oklahoma slips to 47th in nation on annual educational quality ranking  ---


----------



## Skull Pilot

rightwinger said:


> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth


The best of the best do not major in education


----------



## initforme

Since Oklahoma is too cheap to fund their schools it's not hard to figure why they are 47th.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, who said I was former?  I am substituting right now because no one in the private sector will hire me because I am much more qualified that the people interviewing me.  I am back in the classroom full time as of last week, but I don't get paid for any day we are off.  When my paycheck comes in 2 weeks, it will have 4 days pay, at about 1/3 my normal rate per day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are just so awesome!!....we should all be groveling at your blessed feet!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, just a little modicum of respect for all teachers would be sufficient.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What part of "wonderful, I appreciate, great people"...do you not understand?
> Do you need to go back to school yourself?
> Again, you're the one carrying a chip around on his shoulder, not me.
> You need to get over yourself and hopefully you can make a decent teacher also...*because if these post are any indication of how you interact with students*...you are a jerk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My students are not idiots!  You, on the other hand, ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can say one thing you _are_ entertaining!....
Click to expand...


That's what my students tell me!  I make learning fun!

You, on the other hand, are boring as hell!


----------



## pismoe

Oklahoma mentioned by me because their teachers just got a raise i think .  So , your reasoning is that the teachers get to feck with the kids until they can SQUEEZE more money from Taxpayers eh  Init ??


----------



## rightwinger

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
Click to expand...


Some do

We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system


----------



## pismoe

yeah , you're the cool teachers eh Admiral !!


----------



## rightwinger

initforme said:


> Since Oklahoma is too cheap to fund their schools it's not hard to figure why they are 47th.


You get what you pay for


----------



## pismoe

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some do
> 
> We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system
Click to expand...

--------------------------------   might not but it will stop them from whining and it would get them away from American kids  RWinger .


----------



## Skull Pilot

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some do
> 
> We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system
Click to expand...


Matters not to me.  I was smart enough not to have kids.  And it's not teachers' salary that is the problem it's that we are asking schools to be something else these days.

And like most government run bureaucracies the schools are top heavy with administrators 

These teachers should be calling for the culling of the administrative herd


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
Click to expand...


Define "best".

Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some do
> 
> We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Matters not to me.  I was smart enough not to have kids.  And it's not teachers' salary that is the problem it's that we are asking schools to be something else these days.
> 
> And like most government run bureaucracies the schools are top heavy with administrators
> 
> These teachers should be calling for the culling of the administrative herd
Click to expand...


The fact that you did not reproduce makes us eternally grateful!

We did not have to provide for your offspring and the women thank you especially!


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
Click to expand...


The top 5% of graduating High school students

And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some do
> 
> We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Matters not to me.  I was smart enough not to have kids.  And it's not teachers' salary that is the problem it's that we are asking schools to be something else these days.
> 
> And like most government run bureaucracies the schools are top heavy with administrators
> 
> These teachers should be calling for the culling of the administrative herd
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact that you did not reproduce makes us eternally grateful!
> 
> We did not have to provide for your offspring and the women thank you especially!
Click to expand...


Typical teacher.  You think you can't have sex if you don't have kids


----------



## pismoe

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
Click to expand...

-------------------------------------------   so , its like i say , you take the job and then feck the kids over until you can squeeze more MONEY from the taxpaying public that pays your salaries eh  Admiral ??


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
Click to expand...


Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.

The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some do
> 
> We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Matters not to me.  I was smart enough not to have kids.  And it's not teachers' salary that is the problem it's that we are asking schools to be something else these days.
> 
> And like most government run bureaucracies the schools are top heavy with administrators
> 
> These teachers should be calling for the culling of the administrative herd
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact that you did not reproduce makes us eternally grateful!
> 
> We did not have to provide for your offspring and the women thank you especially!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Typical teacher.  You think you can't have sex if you don't have kids
Click to expand...


If you look anything like your personality, you probably have to pay for it!


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> my so called lies are backed up by linked info on what i say Teach / Admiral !!



I thought you left.

You are losing the battle though.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Unkotare said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...... Spending a bunch of time on history will only set a person behind.   ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????
Click to expand...

I think he just identified the problem. 5 minutes a day on History?

That does explain why so many are ignorant of the past and invent what they think happened.


----------



## MaryAnne11

iamwhatiseem said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
Click to expand...



You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.

We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Flash said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife was a teacher for 29 years.
> 
> Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.
> 
> When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.
> 
> Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.
> 
> Never once complained about the pay.
> 
> Suck it up Buttercups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did she teach?  P.E.?
> 
> Either that or she must have been a lousy teacher.  Was this was 20 years ago?
> 
> Your wife never attended a sporting event, play, or exhibition on the weekend?  Never had to grade papers?  Never had to enter grades into a computer?  Never had to plan a lesson or a unit?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Moon Bat but she was a great teacher.  She won an award from the Jimmy Carter Administration for being a good teacher and she went to a White House ceremony to get the award.   The award was for teaching disadvantage kids.  You know, the hard stuff.
> 
> What else you got Moon Bat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am a Moon Bat, but your wife received an award from an administration that was in office 40 years ago?
> 
> I graduated from high school 40 years ago!  I guess your job as a typewriter repairman made for a good income.
> 
> Totally clueless doesn't even begin to describe how out of touch you are.
> 
> I have been in the classroom since 1996.  Nothing today compares to when I first started.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not all teachers are Left Wing assholes like you Moon Bat.  Some actually have good conservative values.
> 
> I was really proud of my wife back in the 1970s.
> 
> When she first started teaching she joined the teacher's union because they had good liability insurance.  However, she found out they were using her dues money to support filthy ass Democrat candidates.  She quit the union and got professional liability coverage under our homeowners insurance.  Thank god that Florida is a right to work state so she could tell the filthy union to go shove it.
> 
> Teaching was a good way for her to help the family income by earning enough money to pay our combined Federal State and local taxes each year.
> 
> If the stupid cost of government wasn't so high she wouldn't have had to be a working Mom just so our family could get ahead..
Click to expand...



You honestly think teaching in the 1970’s has any comparison to today?

You should have been proud of your wife for her accomplishments then. 

But it is a whole new world in Teaching today.


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
Click to expand...

---------------------------------   GOOD , Good to see them gone . They can not harm American school kids anymore .   Except maybe their own widdle lefties  Mary Ann .


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> generally speaking i do not think that teachers of the last 30 - 40 years are well educated MaryAnn .



Well, I disagree with you. I think the standards they have to live by are very high.


----------



## pismoe

computer sales at WAL MART will probably drop  MaryAnn !!


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> generally speaking i do not think that teachers of the last 30 - 40 years are well educated MaryAnn .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I disagree with you. I think the standards they have to live by are very high.
Click to expand...

-------------------------   sure you do , you are a teacher , probably millenial or younger .   You have no experience with an older and better America  MaryAnn .


----------



## MaryAnne11

pismoe said:


> you Teachers are not the Pillars of Society as you may have been seen in the past  Admiral Teacher !!




You do know you have made a complete ass of yourself in this thread?

Arguing with Teachers who know what Teaching is.

You failed!


----------



## iamwhatiseem

MaryAnne11 said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
Click to expand...


No doubt.
It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system. 
 Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers. 
  You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.


----------



## pismoe

yeah , Teachers HIGH STANDARDS !!   ---  Married Teachers Accused of Sexual Abuse of Student  ---   husband and wife team , check it out MaryAnn !!


----------



## pismoe

by the looks of both of them they would have been better off doing some Coal Mining in Scranton and Lackawanna  County but teacher work was cleaner , more lucrative , better benefits and more fun MaryAnn .   ---  Married Teachers Accused of Sexual Abuse of Student   ---


----------



## initforme

When are you going to mention student responsibility?   Waiting.   A teacher can put it out there but if a kid refuses to learn again you are blaming only one person.  Wow how dog dung dumb.


----------



## initforme

They both look like typical private sector management.  Useless.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

initforme said:


> When are you going to mention student responsibility?   Waiting.   A teacher can put it out there but if a kid refuses to learn again you are blaming only one person.  Wow how dog dung dumb.



You bet.
We have a cultural problem in America. Once endemic to primarily urban areas, is becoming pandemic across the whole country.
But this is what happens when you have a society without a moral compass. 
But that is a different situation than bad teachers.


----------



## pismoe

initforme said:


> When are you going to mention student responsibility?   Waiting.   A teacher can put it out there but if a kid refuses to learn again you are blaming only one person.  Wow how dog dung dumb.


-----------------------------------   maybe huh , but to me it is WHAT the schools do not teach that i only hear about .  For example , schools don't teach the Constitution , or Civics and then there are no practical skills like Home EC. or carpentry / shop or the USE of tools .   And like i admit , i have been out of School for a long time . But yeah , young 'hip hoppers' just sit in class and say , feck this  INIT .


----------



## hunarcy

pismoe said:


> yeah , Teachers HIGH STANDARDS !!   ---  Married Teachers Accused of Sexual Abuse of Student  ---   husband and wife team , check it out MaryAnn !!



Out of 3.2 million teachers, you found 2 who didn't live up to standards...way to go!


----------



## hunarcy

pismoe said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are you going to mention student responsibility?   Waiting.   A teacher can put it out there but if a kid refuses to learn again you are blaming only one person.  Wow how dog dung dumb.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------   maybe huh , but to me it is WHAT the schools do not teach that i only hear about .  For example , schools don't teach the Constitution , or Civics and then there are no practical skills like Home EC. or carpentry / shop or the USE of tools .   And like i admit , i have been out of School for a long time . But yeah , young 'hip hoppers' just sit in class and say , feck this  INIT .
Click to expand...


If that's not being taught and you think it should, you should participate and contact  your State's School Board!  Make  your voice heard.


----------



## pismoe

hunarcy said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah , Teachers HIGH STANDARDS !!   ---  Married Teachers Accused of Sexual Abuse of Student  ---   husband and wife team , check it out MaryAnn !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out of 3.2 million teachers, you found 2 who didn't live up to standards...way to go!
Click to expand...

---------------------------------------------   no , no and no .   There are all kinds of these deviant teacher out there INIT !!


----------



## hunarcy

pismoe said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah , Teachers HIGH STANDARDS !!   ---  Married Teachers Accused of Sexual Abuse of Student  ---   husband and wife team , check it out MaryAnn !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out of 3.2 million teachers, you found 2 who didn't live up to standards...way to go!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ---------------------------------------------   no , no and no .   There are all kinds of these deviant teacher out there INIT !!
Click to expand...


Create a list.  Then, tell us what percentage of teachers are deviant.


----------



## pismoe

hunarcy said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are you going to mention student responsibility?   Waiting.   A teacher can put it out there but if a kid refuses to learn again you are blaming only one person.  Wow how dog dung dumb.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------   maybe huh , but to me it is WHAT the schools do not teach that i only hear about .  For example , schools don't teach the Constitution , or Civics and then there are no practical skills like Home EC. or carpentry / shop or the USE of tools .   And like i admit , i have been out of School for a long time . But yeah , young 'hip hoppers' just sit in class and say , feck this  INIT .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's not being taught and you think it should, you should participate and contact  your State's School Board!  Make  your voice heard.
Click to expand...

---------------------------  feck that , my kids are grown and i want to see if my CURSE on lefties , millenials , hip hop and anti American types that are building a falling down society for themselves and their kids is accurate .    I want to see if my Curse comes true .    So I say 'feck'  these lefty people as they have NO Common sense and its a waste of time to try to talk common sense to them .   Lets see what happens Hunarcy !! .


----------



## pismoe

hunarcy said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah , Teachers HIGH STANDARDS !!   ---  Married Teachers Accused of Sexual Abuse of Student  ---   husband and wife team , check it out MaryAnn !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out of 3.2 million teachers, you found 2 who didn't live up to standards...way to go!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ---------------------------------------------   no , no and no .   There are all kinds of these deviant teacher out there INIT !!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Create a list.  Then, tell us what percentage of teachers are deviant.
Click to expand...

---------------------------------------------   not a percentage but this is some information for YOU Hunarcy .  ---   http://mobile.wnd.com/2014/08/39783/5/  ---   just a start though  HArcy .


----------



## pismoe

and here's a few more .   ---   The big list: Female teachers with students  ---   And i of course don't have ALL   Hunarcy .


----------



## pismoe

but it  looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages  over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired .   ------------------------   and they ALL want more money and respect  Hunarcy .


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
Click to expand...



You are EMBARRASSINGLY ignorant about teachers and education.  You have bought into the talking points expressed by education bashers.

Where have I demanded it stay the same?  I tried changing it when I was an administrator, but my principal decided to give my job to her best friend.  There was no union to complain to, as administrators are not represented by a union.  I do my best to change it every day in the classroom.  What have you done?

Bitching about falsehoods that you believed seems to be your forte.


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are you going to mention student responsibility?   Waiting.   A teacher can put it out there but if a kid refuses to learn again you are blaming only one person.  Wow how dog dung dumb.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------   maybe huh , but to me it is WHAT the schools do not teach that i only hear about .  For example , schools don't teach the Constitution , or Civics .... .
Click to expand...



Wrong again.


----------



## Unkotare

MaryAnne11 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...... Spending a bunch of time on history will only set a person behind.   ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???????????????????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he just identified the problem. 5 minutes a day on History?
> 
> That does explain why so many are ignorant of the past and invent what they think happened.
Click to expand...


He was talking about what he wanted, not what is the case. His fucked up idea only.


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> ....
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well




That statement doesn't say much about _your_ worth as a human being.


----------



## Unkotare

JoeMoma said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that not one pister/basher puts one ounce of responsibility in the students.  So if a kid is a complete truant/ disruption and won't do an ounce of work and fall its the fault of the teacher.  I believe some of you think all kids just anxiously await to be taught and spend time working at it.  What about the growing percentage who do nothing..no studying no work turn in total disengaged.  The ones who bring your beloved test scores down?  Its the teachers fault correct?  You are nuts.
> 
> 
> 
> A large percentage of students don’t see the value of education, especially in HS.  .....
Click to expand...



What percentage? Proof?


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> generally speaking i do not think that teachers of the last 30 - 40 years are well educated MaryAnn .



What is your qualification to make that assessment?


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> you Teachers are not the Pillars of Society as you may have been seen in the past  Admiral Teacher !!



What are _you_ to society?


----------



## Unkotare

rightwinger said:


> .......
> It is part of the Conservative playbook
> 
> Support unfettered accumulation of wealth for the one percent
> 
> Attack as excessive any wage earned by teachers, cops....even minimum wage jobs




More lies from the hyper-partisan left.


----------



## Unkotare

pismoe said:


> teachers are pretty much full of themselves , they think that they are Special .  ....  ---




Why are you so insecure?


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> ......  I was smart enough not to have kids. ......




Yeah....._that's_ why......


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Hills only retired old people, and teachers thinking they would be making what the top graduate at an Ivy League school would be getting is their own naive nature.  Every time I hear a teacher complain about their pay, I tell them, "Well quit and go into the private sector."  I have yet to see someone do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the majority do that...thus such a high turnover rate within the first five years and a teacher shortage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We get the educational system we deserve
> 
> We even have Betsy DeVos looking after it
Click to expand...


Yeah, she has to fix the mess she was handed.


----------



## JoeMoma

Unkotare said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that not one pister/basher puts one ounce of responsibility in the students.  So if a kid is a complete truant/ disruption and won't do an ounce of work and fall its the fault of the teacher.  I believe some of you think all kids just anxiously await to be taught and spend time working at it.  What about the growing percentage who do nothing..no studying no work turn in total disengaged.  The ones who bring your beloved test scores down?  Its the teachers fault correct?  You are nuts.
> 
> 
> 
> A large percentage of students don’t see the value of education, especially in HS.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What percentage? Proof?
Click to expand...

Oh, like I’m going to do a study and come up with hard numbers to validate my opinion to an anonymous poster on a message board.


----------



## initforme

They are just trolls who haven't bothered to put in any effort.  It was all on the teacher to ensure they learned it.....laughable.


----------



## Flash

MaryAnne11 said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife was a teacher for 29 years.
> 
> Got every summer off, two weeks at Christmas, a week in the Spring and every holiday.  Went into work a couple of hours later than me every day and was always home earlier.  Never had to work a weekend.
> 
> When she was first starting she worked at home at night a little bit grading and planning but after getting a little experience she didn't have to do that any more.
> 
> Great job for he sandwich maker.  Her salary paid our combined Federal, State and Local taxes for the year so that we could live on my Engineer's salary.
> 
> Never once complained about the pay.
> 
> Suck it up Buttercups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did she teach?  P.E.?
> 
> Either that or she must have been a lousy teacher.  Was this was 20 years ago?
> 
> Your wife never attended a sporting event, play, or exhibition on the weekend?  Never had to grade papers?  Never had to enter grades into a computer?  Never had to plan a lesson or a unit?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Moon Bat but she was a great teacher.  She won an award from the Jimmy Carter Administration for being a good teacher and she went to a White House ceremony to get the award.   The award was for teaching disadvantage kids.  You know, the hard stuff.
> 
> What else you got Moon Bat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am a Moon Bat, but your wife received an award from an administration that was in office 40 years ago?
> 
> I graduated from high school 40 years ago!  I guess your job as a typewriter repairman made for a good income.
> 
> Totally clueless doesn't even begin to describe how out of touch you are.
> 
> I have been in the classroom since 1996.  Nothing today compares to when I first started.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not all teachers are Left Wing assholes like you Moon Bat.  Some actually have good conservative values.
> 
> I was really proud of my wife back in the 1970s.
> 
> When she first started teaching she joined the teacher's union because they had good liability insurance.  However, she found out they were using her dues money to support filthy ass Democrat candidates.  She quit the union and got professional liability coverage under our homeowners insurance.  Thank god that Florida is a right to work state so she could tell the filthy union to go shove it.
> 
> Teaching was a good way for her to help the family income by earning enough money to pay our combined Federal State and local taxes each year.
> 
> If the stupid cost of government wasn't so high she wouldn't have had to be a working Mom just so our family could get ahead..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You honestly think teaching in the 1970’s has any comparison to today?
> 
> You should have been proud of your wife for her accomplishments then.
> 
> But it is a whole new world in Teaching today.
Click to expand...



The minority kids that she taught back in the 1970s didn't have family values any more then than the kids today.


----------



## Big Black Dog

My Dad always told me that if you didn’t like the salary an employer paid you don’t raise hell with him with all sorts of demands.  Be polite and find a job that paid what you desired to make.  After all, you knew what the job paid before you accepted the position.


----------



## MaryAnne11

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
Click to expand...



Not all people are dedicated to making the most money.

Some want a rewarding lifetime of making things better.


----------



## MaryAnne11

iamwhatiseem said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
Click to expand...



Did you ever think of the other side of the story?

Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?

Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?

That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.

With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.

And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.

And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?


----------



## MaryAnne11

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
Click to expand...


A Teacher was just on.

36 students in his class and 10 of them do not have Math books.

I hope every Teacher in every state marches.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.
> 
> The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.
Click to expand...


So what?

IMO a plumber or auto mechanic is more important than a teacher


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some do
> 
> We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Matters not to me.  I was smart enough not to have kids.  And it's not teachers' salary that is the problem it's that we are asking schools to be something else these days.
> 
> And like most government run bureaucracies the schools are top heavy with administrators
> 
> These teachers should be calling for the culling of the administrative herd
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact that you did not reproduce makes us eternally grateful!
> 
> We did not have to provide for your offspring and the women thank you especially!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Typical teacher.  You think you can't have sex if you don't have kids
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you look anything like your personality, you probably have to pay for it!
Click to expand...


If you're as stupid as you sound you think your students are laughing with you not at you


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That statement doesn't say much about _your_ worth as a human being.
Click to expand...


No just my net worth

FYI there are over 7 billion humans on this rock so there really isn't much worth there


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......  I was smart enough not to have kids. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....._that's_ why......
Click to expand...


Yes unlike you who couldn't even tell me why you have kids
You just did the mindless go to school get married have kids routine all the other automatons do


----------



## Skull Pilot

MaryAnne11 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not all people are dedicated to making the most money.
> 
> Some want a rewarding lifetime of making things better.
Click to expand...


Yeah all the people who get paid shit say that


----------



## iamwhatiseem

MaryAnne11 said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> What makes me an expert? I can read. And I can see and hear.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
Click to expand...


That is ridiculous.
Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.


----------



## MaryAnne11

iamwhatiseem said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
Click to expand...


You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.


----------



## bodecea

Big Black Dog said:


> My Dad always told me that if you didn’t like the salary an employer paid you don’t raise hell with him with all sorts of demands.  Be polite and find a job that paid what you desired to make.  After all, you knew what the job paid before you accepted the position.


With that philosophy, no one would ever get a raise, better benefits, and a 40 hour week, etc.


----------



## bodecea

pismoe said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are you going to mention student responsibility?   Waiting.   A teacher can put it out there but if a kid refuses to learn again you are blaming only one person.  Wow how dog dung dumb.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------   maybe huh , but to me it is WHAT the schools do not teach that i only hear about .  For example , schools don't teach the Constitution , or Civics and then there are no practical skills like Home EC. or carpentry / shop or the USE of tools .   And like i admit , i have been out of School for a long time . But yeah , young 'hip hoppers' just sit in class and say , feck this  INIT .
Click to expand...

Here in CA they teach Government in 8th grade (about 1/3rd the year) and again in HS.


----------



## bodecea

pismoe said:


> by the looks of both of them they would have been better off doing some Coal Mining in Scranton and Lackawanna  County but teacher work was cleaner , more lucrative , better benefits and more fun MaryAnn .   ---  Married Teachers Accused of Sexual Abuse of Student   ---


How does that stack up to catholic priest pedophiles....or even Mr. Poopy Pants Pedophile of the NRA?  All careers/jobs have bad apples.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

MaryAnne11 said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
Click to expand...


Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up. 
  Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
  However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
  Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.


----------



## pismoe

MaryAnne11 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not all people are dedicated to making the most money.
> 
> Some want a rewarding lifetime of making things better.
Click to expand...

------------------------------------------------   agree , but concerning teachers check out all the anti American teacher in a few different states going crazy and stealing into the pockets of their taxpaying employers   MaryAnn .


----------



## rightwinger

iamwhatiseem said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
Click to expand...

Since the demise of unions
Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted


----------



## pismoe

for 'union' members and 'non union' members .   And in the case of Taxpayers you still approve of 'union members' robbing 'non union' American taxpayers pockets to pay MORE to 'union members'  RWinger


----------



## iamwhatiseem

rightwinger said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since the demise of unions
> Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted
Click to expand...


I agree, but that is not to say they are intrinsically related.
One thing I know we both agree on, and IMO, every American should agree on left or right - is corporatism has been a damning force for the middle class and almost exclusively benefits only a tiny percentage of the population.... the wealthy. 
But this is about teachers unions.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since the demise of unions
> Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted
Click to expand...


And what caused the demise of the unions?

1. Increasing global competition. When foreign companies produce high quality automobiles at a lower price than American companies do, for example, high American union salaries and benefits are no longer affordable.

2. Lack of flexibility and failure to react to the changing market.  The entire work market has changed. It is no longer normal for a person to work for one company for decades. Thus, overly stressing seniority, for example, benefits fewer workers. Unions that fail to adapt to the new reality end up fighting last century's battles.

3. Lack of emphasis on rewarding quality. Workers who excel deserve to be noted and rewarded for doing so. Unions tend to compress everyone into a homogenous mass, where exceptionalism takes second place to seniority. This leaves exceptional workers frustrated.

4. Kill the goose. In their heyday, unions managed to force employers into lavish benefit and retirement packages that assumed eternal rapid growth. When that growth inevitably falls off, the maintainability of the programs also falls off. Being rigidly inflexible leaves them behind.


----------



## pismoe

UNIONS for private business is fine but UNIONS for government employees are no good as it it Taxpayers that pay their wages .    Just a comment .


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.
> 
> The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what?
> 
> *IMO a plumber or auto mechanic is more important than a teacher*
Click to expand...


That's why you are a dumbass!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some do
> 
> We have some excellent teachers. Chasing them into other professions will not help our educational system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matters not to me.  I was smart enough not to have kids.  And it's not teachers' salary that is the problem it's that we are asking schools to be something else these days.
> 
> And like most government run bureaucracies the schools are top heavy with administrators
> 
> These teachers should be calling for the culling of the administrative herd
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact that you did not reproduce makes us eternally grateful!
> 
> We did not have to provide for your offspring and the women thank you especially!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Typical teacher.  You think you can't have sex if you don't have kids
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you look anything like your personality, you probably have to pay for it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you're as stupid as you sound you think your students are laughing with you not at you
Click to expand...


You obviously never paid any attention to your teachers anyway, or you would not be a dumbass!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, NOTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are* why they get paid so much.*
Click to expand...


Where did she say that teachers get paid so much?  She said decent.  Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word.

Can you imagine what teachers would be making if it were not for unions?

Right now, teachers in our state are decently paid, but our state legislature is taking money away by requiring a higher contribution for every teacher to the retirement fund!  Do you know what a pay cut is?

Also, contrary to what is apparently common knowledge, not a dime of my retirement comes from the state, but out of my paycheck!  They decide how much to take!  I do not get to participate in social security.  I lost my social security disability eligibility because I have been out of SS for over 10 years.  Now, I have to pay for my own!


----------



## DGS49

For most people and for most situations, Unions are inappropriate and destructive.

Think about it: An employment contract is one of the most important agreements in one's life.  I agree to do some work, and another person or entity agrees to compensate me for it.  If the compensation is unacceptable, I don't agree. If my work is found to be unacceptable, the other party can terminate the contract.  If I find that my work is worth more than my compensation, I can bargain for better compensation, or take my services elsewhere, so that I can receive what I am worth.  90% (roughly) of the people in the private sector live their work lives according to these simple rules.

By introducing a Union into this scenario, a number of insidious factors come into play.  It is not MY work that determines may compensation, but the value of EVERYONE's work, from the best to the worst.  The best workers are discouraged from performing to their potential, because there is no advantage to doing so.  The worst workers find ways of doing as little as possible (and sometimes even sabotaging the work), because they know that they are very unlikely to see any ramifications for their laziness.  Personal advancement is discouraged because "standing out" is socially unacceptable in the union community.

Government employment is a lot like Union employment to start with, but then, when you formally adopt collective bargaining along with the "right" to strike, it becomes near evil.  In true collective bargaining, both sides must be reasonable. If the Union demands (and gets) too much, the viability of the enterprise is threatened, and everybody loses.  When a government union demands too much, management representatives are incentivized to make a good showing of "hard bargaining," but there is never any threat to the enterprise if the contract unreasonably favors the Union, so the end result is a gradual inflation of Union compensation to a level that has no rational relationship to what is being "produced" bye the Union members.

In our public dialog, one thing seldom mentioned is the outrageous generosity of the pensions.  The reason it "flies under the radar" is that the outrage is not the monthly or annual AMOUNT of the pensions, it is the DURATION of them.  Many government employees (especially teachers) are able to RETIRE in their EARLY 50's!  This is insane!  They will be, on average, on the public dole for 30 or more years while producing nothing!  So when we talk about "low" teacher salaries, remember that their full compensation is more than twice that annual amount, because they will be on the pension-dole for AS LONG AS THEIR WORKING LIVES.

Anyone reading this who goes on cruises will note how many of your fellow cruisers are retired teachers.  There are a couple reasons for this:  (a) they make a good retirement income, and (b) they are healthy are retired for two or three times as long as their private sector counterparts who retire at a normal 65 or 66.  For most people, the time to "have fun" is 8-10 years between retirement and, say 75, at which time activities are significantly curtailed due to the normal ravages of age.  But if you retire at 53 (normal for a teacher), you have over 20 years of. healthy, well compensated retirement before you have to significantly slow down.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
Click to expand...


So, in your uneducated opinion, unions requiring school districts to follow due process is now considered "protecting teachers"?

Teachers get fired for low performance all the time.  You just never hear about it.  If an administrator just doesn't like someone, why should they be able to fire them for "poor performance" without documenting anything?  Without unions, that is exactly what happens.

As to your claim that private schools pay teachers better, you are completely out to lunch!  Private schools teachers usually cannot wait to get to a public schools because their pay and benefits are even worse than ours.  I really would like to know where you picked up that ignorant tidbit.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

DGS49 said:


> For most people and for most situations, Unions are inappropriate and destructive.
> 
> Think about it: An employment contract is one of the most important agreements in one's life.  I agree to do some work, and another person or entity agrees to compensate me for it.  If the compensation is unacceptable, I don't agree. If my work is found to be unacceptable, the other party can terminate the contract.  If I find that my work is worth more than my compensation, I can bargain for better compensation, or take my services elsewhere, so that I can receive what I am worth.  90% (roughly) of the people in the private sector live their work lives according to these simple rules.
> 
> By introducing a Union into this scenario, a number of insidious factors come into play.  It is not MY work that determines may compensation, but the value of EVERYONE's work, from the best to the worst.  The best workers are discouraged from performing to their potential, because there is no advantage to doing so.  The worst workers find ways of doing as little as possible (and sometimes even sabotaging the work), because they know that they are very unlikely to see any ramifications for their laziness.  Personal advancement is discouraged because "standing out" is socially unacceptable in the union community.
> 
> Government employment is a lot like Union employment to start with, but then, when you formally adopt collective bargaining along with the "right" to strike, it becomes near evil.  In true collective bargaining, both sides must be reasonable. If the Union demands (and gets) too much, the viability of the enterprise is threatened, and everybody loses.  When a government union demands too much, management representatives are incentivized to make a good showing of "hard bargaining," but there is never any threat to the enterprise if the contract unreasonably favors the Union, so the end result is a gradual inflation of Union compensation to a level that has no rational relationship to what is being "produced" bye the Union members.
> 
> In our public dialog, one thing seldom mentioned is the outrageous generosity of the pensions.  The reason it "flies under the radar" is that the outrage is not the monthly or annual AMOUNT of the pensions, it is the DURATION of them.  Many government employees (especially teachers) are able to RETIRE in their EARLY 50's!  This is insane!  They will be, on average, on the public dole for 30 or more years while producing nothing!  So when we talk about "low" teacher salaries, remember that their full compensation is more than twice that annual amount, because they will be on the pension-dole for AS LONG AS THEIR WORKING LIVES.
> 
> Anyone reading this who goes on cruises will note how many of your fellow cruisers are retired teachers.  There are a couple reasons for this:  (a) they make a good retirement income, and (b) they are healthy are retired for two or three times as long as their private sector counterparts who retire at a normal 65 or 66.  For most people, the time to "have fun" is 8-10 years between retirement and, say 75, at which time activities are significantly curtailed due to the normal ravages of age.  But if you retire at 53 (normal for a teacher), you have over 20 years of. healthy, well compensated retirement before you have to significantly slow down.



Teachers fund their own retirements in my state and many others.  Therefore your comments about pensions are ignorant of the facts.

Teacher retirement ages have been raised upwards in the past few decades.  Your information is at best outdated.  I cannot retire until I am 67 1/2, so go back and revise your false assumptions.

You have done an excellent job of taking anecdotal evidence and using your ignorance to make a good case for your position, but it is simply based on false information.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here, maybe you missed it.... it wouldn't be hard to find 100's of examples.
> 
> We Can’t Deny the Existence of Bad Teachers
> 
> Bad Teachers | HuffPost
> 
> U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
> 
> Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers
> 
> Undue process: Why bad teachers rarely get fired
> 
> Opinion | New York’s Bad Teachers, Back on the Job
> 
> 20% or more bad teachers at 14 Brooklyn schools: Study -
> 
> There’s One Thing Worse Than Paying Bad Teachers Not to Work
> 
> *
> You guys are living in a bubble.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are* why they get paid so much.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did she say that teachers get paid so much?  She said decent.  Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word.
> 
> Can you imagine what teachers would be making if it were not for unions?
> 
> Right now, teachers in our state are decently paid, but our state legislature is taking money away by requiring a higher contribution for every teacher to the retirement fund!  Do you know what a pay cut is?
> 
> Also, contrary to what is apparently common knowledge, not a dime of my retirement comes from the state, but out of my paycheck!  They decide how much to take!  I do not get to participate in social security.  I lost my social security disability eligibility because I have been out of SS for over 10 years.  Now, I have to pay for my own!
Click to expand...



Hahaha..... and all of us in the private industry have been doing this for over a decade...welcome to the crowd.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are* why they get paid so much.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did she say that teachers get paid so much?  She said decent.  Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word.
> 
> Can you imagine what teachers would be making if it were not for unions?
> 
> Right now, teachers in our state are decently paid, but our state legislature is taking money away by requiring a higher contribution for every teacher to the retirement fund!  Do you know what a pay cut is?
> 
> Also, contrary to what is apparently common knowledge, not a dime of my retirement comes from the state, but out of my paycheck!  They decide how much to take!  I do not get to participate in social security.  I lost my social security disability eligibility because I have been out of SS for over 10 years.  Now, I have to pay for my own!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha..... and all of us in the private industry have been doing this for over a decade...welcome to the crowd.
Click to expand...


So you don't have SS, dumbass?


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are* why they get paid so much.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did she say that teachers get paid so much?  She said decent.  Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word.
> 
> Can you imagine what teachers would be making if it were not for unions?
> 
> Right now, teachers in our state are decently paid, but our state legislature is taking money away by requiring a higher contribution for every teacher to the retirement fund!  Do you know what a pay cut is?
> 
> Also, contrary to what is apparently common knowledge, not a dime of my retirement comes from the state, but out of my paycheck!  They decide how much to take!  I do not get to participate in social security.  I lost my social security disability eligibility because I have been out of SS for over 10 years.  Now, I have to pay for my own!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha..... and all of us in the private industry have been doing this for over a decade...welcome to the crowd.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you don't have SS, dumbass?
Click to expand...


Go to hell stupid ass, if you can't talk like an adult without juvenile name calling then don't post like you are an adult.
  Lots of states don't give government workers social security because they opted for providing better benefits under a state pension. And indeed, government state pensions overwhelmingly provide better retirement bene's than SS.

 Now, act like an adult jack ass.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.
> 
> The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what?
> 
> *IMO a plumber or auto mechanic is more important than a teacher*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's why you are a dumbass!
Click to expand...


You're so full of shit you must have a plumber on retainer


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Matters not to me.  I was smart enough not to have kids.  And it's not teachers' salary that is the problem it's that we are asking schools to be something else these days.
> 
> And like most government run bureaucracies the schools are top heavy with administrators
> 
> These teachers should be calling for the culling of the administrative herd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you did not reproduce makes us eternally grateful!
> 
> We did not have to provide for your offspring and the women thank you especially!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Typical teacher.  You think you can't have sex if you don't have kids
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you look anything like your personality, you probably have to pay for it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you're as stupid as you sound you think your students are laughing with you not at you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously never paid any attention to your teachers anyway, or you would not be a dumbass!
Click to expand...


There is nothing I learned in school I couldn't have learned on my own


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are* why they get paid so much.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did she say that teachers get paid so much?  She said decent.  Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word.
> 
> Can you imagine what teachers would be making if it were not for unions?
> 
> Right now, teachers in our state are decently paid, but our state legislature is taking money away by requiring a higher contribution for every teacher to the retirement fund!  Do you know what a pay cut is?
> 
> Also, contrary to what is apparently common knowledge, not a dime of my retirement comes from the state, but out of my paycheck!  They decide how much to take!  I do not get to participate in social security.  I lost my social security disability eligibility because I have been out of SS for over 10 years.  Now, I have to pay for my own!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha..... and all of us in the private industry have been doing this for over a decade...welcome to the crowd.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you don't have SS, dumbass?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go to hell stupid ass, if you can't talk like an adult without juvenile name calling then don't post like you are an adult.
> Lots of states don't give government workers social security because they opted for providing better benefits under a state pension. And indeed, government state pensions overwhelmingly provide better retirement bene's than SS.
> 
> Now, act like an adult jack ass.
Click to expand...


More idiocy!  Where do you come up with this endless supply you seem to have?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you did not reproduce makes us eternally grateful!
> 
> We did not have to provide for your offspring and the women thank you especially!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Typical teacher.  You think you can't have sex if you don't have kids
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you look anything like your personality, you probably have to pay for it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you're as stupid as you sound you think your students are laughing with you not at you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously never paid any attention to your teachers anyway, or you would not be a dumbass!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is nothing I learned in school I couldn't have learned on my own
Click to expand...


I have no doubt that is true.  Being an asshole is something you have accomplished all alone!


----------



## Skull Pilot

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical teacher.  You think you can't have sex if you don't have kids
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you look anything like your personality, you probably have to pay for it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you're as stupid as you sound you think your students are laughing with you not at you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously never paid any attention to your teachers anyway, or you would not be a dumbass!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is nothing I learned in school I couldn't have learned on my own
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that is true.  Being an asshole is something you have accomplished all alone!
Click to expand...


Funny Like I care what you think.

I don't even remember most of the names of my high school teachers.

You are all utterly forgettable.


----------



## rightwinger

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since the demise of unions
> Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, but that is not to say they are intrinsically related.
> One thing I know we both agree on, and IMO, every American should agree on left or right - is corporatism has been a damning force for the middle class and almost exclusively benefits only a tiny percentage of the population.... the wealthy.
> But this is about teachers unions.
Click to expand...

There is nobody to stand up to corporate America in defense of the workers

Republicans have instituted an “every man for himself” mentality and the workers have suffered as corporate America gets a compliant workforce


----------



## rightwinger

DGS49 said:


> For most people and for most situations, Unions are inappropriate and destructive.
> 
> Think about it: An employment contract is one of the most important agreements in one's life.  I agree to do some work, and another person or entity agrees to compensate me for it.  If the compensation is unacceptable, I don't agree. If my work is found to be unacceptable, the other party can terminate the contract.  If I find that my work is worth more than my compensation, I can bargain for better compensation, or take my services elsewhere, so that I can receive what I am worth.  90% (roughly) of the people in the private sector live their work lives according to these simple rules.
> 
> By introducing a Union into this scenario, a number of insidious factors come into play.  It is not MY work that determines may compensation, but the value of EVERYONE's work, from the best to the worst.  The best workers are discouraged from performing to their potential, because there is no advantage to doing so.  The worst workers find ways of doing as little as possible (and sometimes even sabotaging the work), because they know that they are very unlikely to see any ramifications for their laziness.  Personal advancement is discouraged because "standing out" is socially unacceptable in the union community.
> 
> Government employment is a lot like Union employment to start with, but then, when you formally adopt collective bargaining along with the "right" to strike, it becomes near evil.  In true collective bargaining, both sides must be reasonable. If the Union demands (and gets) too much, the viability of the enterprise is threatened, and everybody loses.  When a government union demands too much, management representatives are incentivized to make a good showing of "hard bargaining," but there is never any threat to the enterprise if the contract unreasonably favors the Union, so the end result is a gradual inflation of Union compensation to a level that has no rational relationship to what is being "produced" bye the Union members.
> 
> In our public dialog, one thing seldom mentioned is the outrageous generosity of the pensions.  The reason it "flies under the radar" is that the outrage is not the monthly or annual AMOUNT of the pensions, it is the DURATION of them.  Many government employees (especially teachers) are able to RETIRE in their EARLY 50's!  This is insane!  They will be, on average, on the public dole for 30 or more years while producing nothing!  So when we talk about "low" teacher salaries, remember that their full compensation is more than twice that annual amount, because they will be on the pension-dole for AS LONG AS THEIR WORKING LIVES.
> 
> Anyone reading this who goes on cruises will note how many of your fellow cruisers are retired teachers.  There are a couple reasons for this:  (a) they make a good retirement income, and (b) they are healthy are retired for two or three times as long as their private sector counterparts who retire at a normal 65 or 66.  For most people, the time to "have fun" is 8-10 years between retirement and, say 75, at which time activities are significantly curtailed due to the normal ravages of age.  But if you retire at 53 (normal for a teacher), you have over 20 years of. healthy, well compensated retirement before you have to significantly slow down.


Unions institute the power of collective bargaining. All for one and one for all. The individual has the power of the masses

Every man for himself allows the employer to play one worker off the others


----------



## iamwhatiseem

rightwinger said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since the demise of unions
> Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, but that is not to say they are intrinsically related.
> One thing I know we both agree on, and IMO, every American should agree on left or right - is corporatism has been a damning force for the middle class and almost exclusively benefits only a tiny percentage of the population.... the wealthy.
> But this is about teachers unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nobody to stand up to corporate America in defense of the workers
> 
> Republicans have instituted an “every man for himself” mentality and the workers have suffered as corporate America gets a compliant workforce
Click to expand...


Oh like no Democrats have taken part in turning America into a corporatocracy ...really RW?
C'mon. The name Larry Summers mean anything to you? Robert Rubin? Timothy Geithner? The entire Agri-Business? The corruption of the entire finance industry took place over the past 30 years....both sides have taken part, no way only one side could have so thoroughly polluted the system.
And I know you already know this.


----------



## MaryAnne11

MaryAnne11 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I see nothing funny about my post
> 
> A Teacher was just on.
> 
> 36 students in his class and 10 of them do not have Math books.
> 
> I hope every Teacher in every state marches.
Click to expand...


I see nothing funny about my post. I do see a bunch of brainwashed older people who do not give a damn about the future of our young.

They are too busy hating on the things that gave us the Middle Class that the Oligarchy is squeezing out of existence.

I am very happy not to be one of them.


----------



## MaryAnne11

iamwhatiseem said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize many of those things you posted are the reason we find it hard to get or keep good Teachers.
> 
> We have 2 Teachers in the family. One left to go into computer technology. The other went into the Medical field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> It is devastating to employee moral when they see people getting paid exactly, or even more than they are but do half the work or less.
> It is way way way way past time for our education system to expel permanently teachers unions that are poisoning the entire system.
> Our education ranks EMBARRASSINGLY lower than virtually all other major western civilizations. And to think we STILL have a system that refuses to fire bad teachers.
> You would think good teachers would be demanding this to change, but as you can see by the "Admiral" here too many will instead demand it stays the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever think of the other side of the story?
> 
> Unions make it possible for good Teachers to make a decent wage, Health benefits and Security that some Superviser can give their job to a friend, as they can with out a Union?
> 
> Do you really want your kids, grandkids to go back to a one room School where the Teacher has to live with a family, bring in the firewood,etc?
> 
> That way of thinking is why this country is going backward today.
> 
> With that idiot at the EPA rolling back Standards, giving his $50 a night landlord a Pipeline deal. While flying around the country on your tax dollars first class,trying to rent a private jet for $100,000 a month.
> 
> And your choice of President spending 3 million a week flying to his Golf courses, sucking money into his business.
> 
> And you are bitching about Teachers wanting a raise?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous.
> Unions do no such thing for teachers anymore.
> You can't say "teachers aren't paid enough!"...and then turn around and say that the unions are why they get paid so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
Click to expand...


Go ahead,live in your fantasy world. I refuse to.


----------



## rightwinger

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You just took a couple of words from my post, made up your own tale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since the demise of unions
> Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, but that is not to say they are intrinsically related.
> One thing I know we both agree on, and IMO, every American should agree on left or right - is corporatism has been a damning force for the middle class and almost exclusively benefits only a tiny percentage of the population.... the wealthy.
> But this is about teachers unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nobody to stand up to corporate America in defense of the workers
> 
> Republicans have instituted an “every man for himself” mentality and the workers have suffered as corporate America gets a compliant workforce
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh like no Democrats have taken part in turning America into a corporatocracy ...really RW?
> C'mon. The name Larry Summers mean anything to you? Robert Rubin? Timothy Geithner? The entire Agri-Business? The corruption of the entire finance industry took place over the past 30 years....both sides have taken part, no way only one side could have so thoroughly polluted the system.
> And I know you already know this.
Click to expand...

Republicans have made it part of their platform to destroy unions

Workers have suffered


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......  I was smart enough not to have kids. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....._that's_ why......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes unlike you who couldn't even tell me why you have kids
> You just did the mindless go to school get married have kids routine all the other automatons do
Click to expand...




Yeeeeaaaaah.......that’s it......   : rolleyes:


----------



## Skull Pilot

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......  I was smart enough not to have kids. ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....._that's_ why......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes unlike you who couldn't even tell me why you have kids
> You just did the mindless go to school get married have kids routine all the other automatons do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeeeeaaaaah.......that’s it......   : rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Of course that's it

You're no different than any other sheep


----------



## Unkotare

So sad...^^^^^^^


----------



## boedicca

MaryAnne11 said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes.  So you end up with teachers making the following decision.  Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector.  I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession.  One stayed and one left.  The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.
> 
> I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it.  That ship sailed a few weeks ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The sheer anger here on this board is down right stupid.
> 
> Envy and greed seem to rule.
Click to expand...



The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.


----------



## Unkotare

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.
> 
> The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what?
> 
> IMO a plumber or auto mechanic is more important than a teacher
Click to expand...



Which proves the danger of being so uneducated.


----------



## Unkotare

JoeMoma said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that not one pister/basher puts one ounce of responsibility in the students.  So if a kid is a complete truant/ disruption and won't do an ounce of work and fall its the fault of the teacher.  I believe some of you think all kids just anxiously await to be taught and spend time working at it.  What about the growing percentage who do nothing..no studying no work turn in total disengaged.  The ones who bring your beloved test scores down?  Its the teachers fault correct?  You are nuts.
> 
> 
> 
> A large percentage of students don’t see the value of education, especially in HS.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What percentage? Proof?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, like I’m going to do a study and come up with hard numbers to validate my opinion to an anonymous poster on a message board.
Click to expand...





= pulled out of ass


----------



## JoeMoma

Unkotare said:


> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeMoma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> initforme said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that not one pister/basher puts one ounce of responsibility in the students.  So if a kid is a complete truant/ disruption and won't do an ounce of work and fall its the fault of the teacher.  I believe some of you think all kids just anxiously await to be taught and spend time working at it.  What about the growing percentage who do nothing..no studying no work turn in total disengaged.  The ones who bring your beloved test scores down?  Its the teachers fault correct?  You are nuts.
> 
> 
> 
> A large percentage of students don’t see the value of education, especially in HS.  .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What percentage? Proof?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, like I’m going to do a study and come up with hard numbers to validate my opinion to an anonymous poster on a message board.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> = pulled out of ass
Click to expand...

Link?


----------



## JoeMoma

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.
> 
> The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what?
> 
> IMO a plumber or auto mechanic is more important than a teacher
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Which proves the danger of being so uneducated.
Click to expand...

Link?  Where is the proof!


----------



## iamwhatiseem

rightwinger said:


> Republicans have made it part of their platform to destroy unions
> 
> Workers have suffered



Pheh. You mean right to work?
Nothing wrong with that legislation. If enough workers realize that their union does nothing but deduct $$ from their paycheck - why should they be forced to pay the dues in order to work there?
Unions lost their teeth years ago due to three main reasons:

1) The good they did is in the past. I don't mean that negatively. I mean literally. No one can argue, well except for idiots, that unions raised wages for everyone, union or not union. Fought for us to have sick days, holidays, vacation days, pensions (now gone), SS matching, 40 hour work week, overtime...the list goes on. But all of those things were accomplished decades ago. Now this presented unions with a dilemma. They needed to stay relevant. So the result of that was unions bargained for things that were not fair to the company. Like making it extremely hard, if not impossible, for bad workers to get fired. Along with other problematic protections that were not good for the company OR other workers.
2) Off shoring labor. It was bound to happen. Some say it is partly due to unions that made doing business in America so costly that companies didn't have a choice. That is not entirely true, partly, but mostly because it made them more money and Americans don't care where the stuff they buy comes from so why pay $40 an hour in total compensation if you can pay $1 an hour elsewhere.
3) Corporatism. Corporatism is a perfect storm. It needs government collusion to work. It needs government to create favorable regulations and laws to protect their existence. And they get it. On both sides of the aisle. Every time. No matter that in the past 30 years, 16 of them, saw a Democrat President, most years with a Democrat Congress and Senate majority. Little hard to maintain the facade that it is all Republicans when they were not the ones in majority power.


----------



## rightwinger

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have made it part of their platform to destroy unions
> 
> Workers have suffered
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pheh. You mean right to work?
> Nothing wrong with that legislation. If enough workers realize that their union does nothing but deduct $$ from their paycheck - why should they be forced to pay the dues in order to work there?
> Unions lost their teeth years ago due to three main reasons:
> 
> 1) The good they did is in the past. I don't mean that negatively. I mean literally. No one can argue, well except for idiots, that unions raised wages for everyone, union or not union. Fought for us to have sick days, holidays, vacation days, pensions (now gone), SS matching, 40 hour work week, overtime...the list goes on. But all of those things were accomplished decades ago. Now this presented unions with a dilemma. They needed to stay relevant. So the result of that was unions bargained for things that were not fair to the company. Like making it extremely hard, if not impossible, for bad workers to get fired. Along with other problematic protections that were not good for the company OR other workers.
> 2) Off shoring labor. It was bound to happen. Some say it is partly due to unions that made doing business in America so costly that companies didn't have a choice. That is not entirely true, partly, but mostly because it made them more money and Americans don't care where the stuff they buy comes from so why pay $40 an hour in total compensation if you can pay $1 an hour elsewhere.
> 3) Corporatism. Corporatism is a perfect storm. It needs government collusion to work. It needs government to create favorable regulations and laws to protect their existence. And they get it. On both sides of the aisle. Every time. No matter that in the past 30 years, 16 of them, saw a Democrat President, most years with a Democrat Congress and Senate majority. Little hard to maintain the facade that it is all Republicans when they were not the ones in majority power.
Click to expand...

Right to work is just code for right to be paid less

The demise of unions has led to a diminishing of worker compensation, rights and protections


----------



## iamwhatiseem

rightwinger said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have made it part of their platform to destroy unions
> 
> Workers have suffered
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pheh. You mean right to work?
> Nothing wrong with that legislation. If enough workers realize that their union does nothing but deduct $$ from their paycheck - why should they be forced to pay the dues in order to work there?
> Unions lost their teeth years ago due to three main reasons:
> 
> 1) The good they did is in the past. I don't mean that negatively. I mean literally. No one can argue, well except for idiots, that unions raised wages for everyone, union or not union. Fought for us to have sick days, holidays, vacation days, pensions (now gone), SS matching, 40 hour work week, overtime...the list goes on. But all of those things were accomplished decades ago. Now this presented unions with a dilemma. They needed to stay relevant. So the result of that was unions bargained for things that were not fair to the company. Like making it extremely hard, if not impossible, for bad workers to get fired. Along with other problematic protections that were not good for the company OR other workers.
> 2) Off shoring labor. It was bound to happen. Some say it is partly due to unions that made doing business in America so costly that companies didn't have a choice. That is not entirely true, partly, but mostly because it made them more money and Americans don't care where the stuff they buy comes from so why pay $40 an hour in total compensation if you can pay $1 an hour elsewhere.
> 3) Corporatism. Corporatism is a perfect storm. It needs government collusion to work. It needs government to create favorable regulations and laws to protect their existence. And they get it. On both sides of the aisle. Every time. No matter that in the past 30 years, 16 of them, saw a Democrat President, most years with a Democrat Congress and Senate majority. Little hard to maintain the facade that it is all Republicans when they were not the ones in majority power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right to work is just code for right to be paid less
> 
> The demise of unions has led to a diminishing of worker compensation, rights and protections
Click to expand...


All I can tell you friend it is going to take a lot more than unions to reverse the gutting of the middle class and the evaporation of benefits and frozen wages. 
Primarily.... B O T H  Democrats and Republicans have got to stop being sheep and pawns for their respective party filled with looters and cons. Elected vipers that have not represented our best interest in at least 40 years. Washington is a cess pool. Our parents let it get that way, we maintain it with our blind following and relentless blame games.
   As long as Democrats stand blind to their own corruption and demons, and Republicans stand blind to theirs....but always able to see the problems with the other - then we will continue to be a divided nation. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THE VIPERS AND CONS WANT. And what Corporatism has very carefully crafted and maintain.

  Ask yourself. Are you helping or merely protecting the corruption of "your side".


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

rightwinger said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh puhleese....you say without unions teachers would have to go back to living with families and carry in firewood and you say* I *am making stuff up.
> Unions were once a VITAL part of the American society as a whole. Unions are what built the middle class, for that, there is no argument. We all owe an enormous gratitude to unions of the early-mid 20th century. Including teachers.
> However after the 1970's....unions became a negative factor instead of a positive one.
> And this is especially true for the teachers union. The single largest factor today is protecting teachers from responsibility. Making it practically impossible to fire teachers based on low performance. And that makes our system suffer.
> Private schools without unions...not only pay teachers better, but out perform public schools almost 100% of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the demise of unions
> Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, but that is not to say they are intrinsically related.
> One thing I know we both agree on, and IMO, every American should agree on left or right - is corporatism has been a damning force for the middle class and almost exclusively benefits only a tiny percentage of the population.... the wealthy.
> But this is about teachers unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nobody to stand up to corporate America in defense of the workers
> 
> Republicans have instituted an “every man for himself” mentality and the workers have suffered as corporate America gets a compliant workforce
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh like no Democrats have taken part in turning America into a corporatocracy ...really RW?
> C'mon. The name Larry Summers mean anything to you? Robert Rubin? Timothy Geithner? The entire Agri-Business? The corruption of the entire finance industry took place over the past 30 years....both sides have taken part, no way only one side could have so thoroughly polluted the system.
> And I know you already know this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Republicans have made it part of their platform to destroy unions
> 
> Workers have suffered
Click to expand...


Link to the platform that says that?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

boedicca said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes.  So you end up with teachers making the following decision.  Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector.  I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession.  One stayed and one left.  The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.
> 
> I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it.  That ship sailed a few weeks ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The sheer anger here on this board is down right stupid.
> 
> Envy and greed seem to rule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.
Click to expand...


So why do we have lousy pensions and crappy benefits?

It is simply because you make shit up based on anecdotal information from places like Long Island and San Francisco where my garage would sell for $1.2 million!


----------



## MaryAnne11

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have made it part of their platform to destroy unions
> 
> Workers have suffered
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pheh. You mean right to work?
> Nothing wrong with that legislation. If enough workers realize that their union does nothing but deduct $$ from their paycheck - why should they be forced to pay the dues in order to work there?
> Unions lost their teeth years ago due to three main reasons:
> 
> 1) The good they did is in the past. I don't mean that negatively. I mean literally. No one can argue, well except for idiots, that unions raised wages for everyone, union or not union. Fought for us to have sick days, holidays, vacation days, pensions (now gone), SS matching, 40 hour work week, overtime...the list goes on. But all of those things were accomplished decades ago. Now this presented unions with a dilemma. They needed to stay relevant. So the result of that was unions bargained for things that were not fair to the company. Like making it extremely hard, if not impossible, for bad workers to get fired. Along with other problematic protections that were not good for the company OR other workers.
> 2) Off shoring labor. It was bound to happen. Some say it is partly due to unions that made doing business in America so costly that companies didn't have a choice. That is not entirely true, partly, but mostly because it made them more money and Americans don't care where the stuff they buy comes from so why pay $40 an hour in total compensation if you can pay $1 an hour elsewhere.
> 3) Corporatism. Corporatism is a perfect storm. It needs government collusion to work. It needs government to create favorable regulations and laws to protect their existence. And they get it. On both sides of the aisle. Every time. No matter that in the past 30 years, 16 of them, saw a Democrat President, most years with a Democrat Congress and Senate majority. Little hard to maintain the facade that it is all Republicans when they were not the ones in majority power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right to work is just code for right to be paid less
> 
> The demise of unions has led to a diminishing of worker compensation, rights and protections
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All I can tell you friend it is going to take a lot more than unions to reverse the gutting of the middle class and the evaporation of benefits and frozen wages.
> Primarily.... B O T H  Democrats and Republicans have got to stop being sheep and pawns for their respective party filled with looters and cons. Elected vipers that have not represented our best interest in at least 40 years. Washington is a cess pool. Our parents let it get that way, we maintain it with our blind following and relentless blame games.
> As long as Democrats stand blind to their own corruption and demons, and Republicans stand blind to theirs....but always able to see the problems with the other - then we will continue to be a divided nation. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THE VIPERS AND CONS WANT. And what Corporatism has very carefully crafted and maintain.
> 
> Ask yourself. Are you helping or merely protecting the corruption of "your side".
Click to expand...



Your parents let it get that way?

Excuse me, what party have you voted for all these years?

Maybe you should just take a look at the greedy generation that is now whining and complaining they do not have the benefits their parents did?

Never entered your head while you were whining your Politicians were busy destroying what made the middle class?

Think about that.


----------



## WorldWatcher

boedicca said:


> The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.




I'm wondering if someone can link to some recent studies of what retirement pensions and benefits are per state.

Rank and file people like me please, not cherry picked pensions for top earners like the Division Superintendent.

I'm in Virginia and part of of the same retirement system that teachers are in.  I'm a non-hybrid employee that will be able to retire at 65 with and the plane will provide $2,300 per month and I get to have medical through Medicare (not through my employer).

That's $27,600 a year in a retirement pension.

I don't see that as an excessive pension.


>>>>


----------



## initforme

Excessive pensions...laughable only said by snowflakes.  Laughable.  But you gotta love their drivel.  Assuredly they worship at the altar of the rich and corporate sleezeballs who would forsake them in a heartbeat.  Unreal how super done are.


----------



## rightwinger

initforme said:


> Excessive pensions...laughable only said by snowflakes.  Laughable.  But you gotta love their drivel.  Assuredly they worship at the altar of the rich and corporate sleezeballs who would forsake them in a heartbeat.  Unreal how super done are.


An employee working 40 years and earning a comfortable retirement enrages conservatives


----------



## rightwinger

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the demise of unions
> Worker pay, benefits and job security has plummeted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but that is not to say they are intrinsically related.
> One thing I know we both agree on, and IMO, every American should agree on left or right - is corporatism has been a damning force for the middle class and almost exclusively benefits only a tiny percentage of the population.... the wealthy.
> But this is about teachers unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nobody to stand up to corporate America in defense of the workers
> 
> Republicans have instituted an “every man for himself” mentality and the workers have suffered as corporate America gets a compliant workforce
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh like no Democrats have taken part in turning America into a corporatocracy ...really RW?
> C'mon. The name Larry Summers mean anything to you? Robert Rubin? Timothy Geithner? The entire Agri-Business? The corruption of the entire finance industry took place over the past 30 years....both sides have taken part, no way only one side could have so thoroughly polluted the system.
> And I know you already know this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Republicans have made it part of their platform to destroy unions
> 
> Workers have suffered
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link to the platform that says that?
Click to expand...

Here ya go professor

GOP plans new assault on unions


----------



## Coyote

We as a nation demand a top notch education but are are too fucking cheap to pay for it.

We do not respect teachers.

We do not really respect education.  Least of all in red states.


----------



## Moonglow

> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit. As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."



Damn those republicans that get automatic raises when serving in legislature....


----------



## boedicca

WorldWatcher said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if someone can link to some recent studies of what retirement pensions and benefits are per state.
> 
> Rank and file people like me please, not cherry picked pensions for top earners like the Division Superintendent.
> 
> I'm in Virginia and part of of the same retirement system that teachers are in.  I'm a non-hybrid employee that will be able to retire at 65 with and the plane will provide $2,300 per month and I get to have medical through Medicare (not through my employer).
> 
> That's $27,600 a year in a retirement pension.
> 
> I don't see that as an excessive pension.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...



That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.


----------



## rightwinger

Coyote said:


> We as a nation demand a top notch education but are are too fucking cheap to pay for it.
> 
> We do not respect teachers.
> 
> We do not really respect education.  Least of all in red states.


I think red states look at education as an annoyance


----------



## bodecea

boedicca said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if someone can link to some recent studies of what retirement pensions and benefits are per state.
> 
> Rank and file people like me please, not cherry picked pensions for top earners like the Division Superintendent.
> 
> I'm in Virginia and part of of the same retirement system that teachers are in.  I'm a non-hybrid employee that will be able to retire at 65 with and the plane will provide $2,300 per month and I get to have medical through Medicare (not through my employer).
> 
> That's $27,600 a year in a retirement pension.
> 
> I don't see that as an excessive pension.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.
Click to expand...

And you want teachers with a professional degree at minimum to be financial compared with minimum wage workers.   Kind of proves the teachers' point about the disrespect trumpanzees have for education.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

boedicca said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if someone can link to some recent studies of what retirement pensions and benefits are per state.
> 
> Rank and file people like me please, not cherry picked pensions for top earners like the Division Superintendent.
> 
> I'm in Virginia and part of of the same retirement system that teachers are in.  I'm a non-hybrid employee that will be able to retire at 65 with and the plane will provide $2,300 per month and I get to have medical through Medicare (not through my employer).
> 
> That's $27,600 a year in a retirement pension.
> 
> I don't see that as an excessive pension.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.
Click to expand...


Since when do minimum wage workers pay a significant amount of property tax?  Pardon me but your ignorance is showing.


----------



## Coyote

Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive.  You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers,  because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.

You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada.  Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well.  They are also respected as a profession.


----------



## Unkotare

Coyote said:


> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....




They don't.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
Click to expand...


Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
Click to expand...




Overgeneralization


----------



## rightwinger

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overgeneralization
Click to expand...

Wrong


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overgeneralization
Click to expand...


Far from it!  This forum is sufficient proof!


----------



## hadit

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
Click to expand...


No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children.  They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and knowing how to put a condom on a banana SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.

But they don't hate teachers.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

hadit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children.  They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and knowing how to put a condom on a banana SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.
> 
> But they don't hate teachers.
Click to expand...


So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?

You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure.  Why do you not know what you are doing?


----------



## WorldWatcher

boedicca said:


> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.



I'm sorry, you said "excessive".  I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.

Move the goal posts much?  You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive.  Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage.  (Not)



>>>>


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overgeneralization
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far from it!  This forum is sufficient proof!
Click to expand...




You take this forum as representative of society as a whole?


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Coyote said:


> Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive.  You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers,  because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.
> 
> You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada.  Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well.  They are also respected as a profession.



Oh Good Lord... look through every post I have made here and you will see peppered in there how I appreciate teachers, how I had some great teachers, how my kids had some teachers that were really good.
  HOWEVER... there are bad teachers. Too many. And they are protected by an ingrained system that shuffles them around, pays them to do nothing...or worse the Principle has his hands tied so just leaves them in the classroom.
  That does not mean I hate teachers for f*cks sake.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overgeneralization
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far from it!  This forum is sufficient proof!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You take this forum as representative of society as a whole?
Click to expand...


No.  Every news site, Facebook page, and other forums I visit show the same total disdain and ignorance about education from many conservatives.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive.  You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers,  because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.
> 
> You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada.  Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well.  They are also respected as a profession.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Good Lord... look through every post I have made here and you will see peppered in there how I appreciate teachers, how I had some great teachers, how my kids had some teachers that were really good.
> *HOWEVER... there are bad teachers. Too many. *And they are protected by an ingrained system that shuffles them around, pays them to do nothing...or worse the Principle has his hands tied so just leaves them in the classroom.
> That does not mean I hate teachers for f*cks sake.
Click to expand...



Really?  Who are these teachers?  Can you name them personally?

The *PRINCIPAL* does not have their hands tied.  They are more likely the problem in that he or she did not document the deficiencies you claim exist.  Do you even know their responsibilities?

What makes you think these are "bad" teachers?  What constitutes a bad teacher to you?

My money is you can't answer these questions because you are parroting talking points, just like you can't spell "principal".


----------



## bodecea

Coyote said:


> We as a nation demand a top notch education but are are too fucking cheap to pay for it.
> 
> We do not respect teachers.
> 
> We do not really respect education.  Least of all in red states.


Ironically, we have people negatively comparing our education system with other countries....but refuse to have our education system model those countries they admire....things like Tracking, a good Vocational track, longer days/weeks/school years.  The same when they compare public schools with private schools but refuse to model public schools on those private schools they admire:  REQUIRING parents to participate/volunteer, giving schools the choice to accept/keep students.
American public schools are denigrated yet their hands are tied.


----------



## boedicca

WorldWatcher said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, you said "excessive".  I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.
> 
> Move the goal posts much?  You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive.  Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage.  (Not)
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...



Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.


----------



## hunarcy

pismoe said:


> but it  looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages  over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired .   ------------------------   and they ALL want more money and respect  Hunarcy .



Such an impressive list!  But, out of 3.2 MILLION?  Still not many.  But, don’t let this stop your ignorant jihad against educators.


----------



## hunarcy

boedicca said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, you said "excessive".  I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.
> 
> Move the goal posts much?  You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive.  Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage.  (Not)
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.
Click to expand...


“Normal people” don’t get social security?


----------



## boedicca

hunarcy said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, you said "excessive".  I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.
> 
> Move the goal posts much?  You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive.  Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage.  (Not)
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “Normal people” don’t get social security?
Click to expand...



For people working today, SS is a net loss.  We would all do better investing that money for ourselves.  The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits.   Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.


----------



## hadit

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children.  They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and knowing how to put a condom on a banana SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.
> 
> But they don't hate teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?
> 
> You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure.  Why do you not know what you are doing?
Click to expand...


Can you be specific?


----------



## hunarcy

boedicca said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, you said "excessive".  I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.
> 
> Move the goal posts much?  You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive.  Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage.  (Not)
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “Normal people” don’t get social security?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> For people working today, SS is a net loss.  We would all do better investing that money for ourselves.  The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits.   Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.
Click to expand...


That’s a failure of government


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive.  You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers,  because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.
> 
> You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada.  Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well.  They are also respected as a profession.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Good Lord... look through every post I have made here and you will see peppered in there how I appreciate teachers, how I had some great teachers, how my kids had some teachers that were really good.
> *HOWEVER... there are bad teachers. Too many. *And they are protected by an ingrained system that shuffles them around, pays them to do nothing...or worse the Principle has his hands tied so just leaves them in the classroom.
> That does not mean I hate teachers for f*cks sake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Who are these teachers?  Can you name them personally?
> 
> The *PRINCIPAL* does not have their hands tied.  They are more likely the problem in that he or she did not document the deficiencies you claim exist.  Do you even know their responsibilities?
> 
> What makes you think these are "bad" teachers?  What constitutes a bad teacher to you?
> 
> My money is you can't answer these questions because you are parroting talking points, just like you can't spell "principal".
Click to expand...



You again?....blah blah blah.

Of course I can name the bad teachers I had, and my kids had. Everyone knew who they were/are.
What is a bad teacher?  What kind of a question is that anyway? You ever hear the term 'self-evident'?
Your money? According to you, you don't have any. So it is moot.


----------



## hunarcy

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> The best of the best do not major in education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define "best".
> 
> Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly?  It's called dedication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The top 5% of graduating High school students
> 
> And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.
> 
> The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what?
> 
> IMO a plumber or auto mechanic is more important than a teacher
Click to expand...


Someone has to teach the mechanic and plumber


----------



## WorldWatcher

boedicca said:


> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.




Fine by me.

Pay me back the portion of my compensation that was invested in my pension with compound interest to mimic my investing for the last 40 years and we can call it even.

For my current employer the state requires 15% of my compensation as payment into the pension system each pay check.


>>>>


----------



## boedicca

hunarcy said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, you said "excessive".  I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.
> 
> Move the goal posts much?  You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive.  Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage.  (Not)
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “Normal people” don’t get social security?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> For people working today, SS is a net loss.  We would all do better investing that money for ourselves.  The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits.   Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That’s a failure of government
Click to expand...



No, it's the inevitable failure of a collectivist policy.  Sooner or later you run out of other people's money.


----------



## boedicca

WorldWatcher said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fine by me.
> 
> Pay me back the portion of my compensation that was invested in my pension with compound interest to mimic my investing for the last 40 years and we can call it even.
> 
> For my current employer the state requires 15% of my compensation as payment into the pension system each pay check.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...



We'd all like that deal.  It ain't gonna happen.

What it means in reality is that as a government employee, your government officials have not fully funded your pension.  They have spent much of the money on crap...and expect taxpayers to pay for your unfunded pension liability with higher taxes.  The same thing applies for SS beneficiaries.

And, inevitably, something that cannot go on forever won't.


----------



## hunarcy

boedicca said:


> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes.  So you end up with teachers making the following decision.  Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector.  I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession.  One stayed and one left.  The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.
> 
> I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it.  That ship sailed a few weeks ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The sheer anger here on this board is down right stupid.
> 
> Envy and greed seem to rule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.
Click to expand...


“Excessive pensions “   Ridiculous


----------



## boedicca

hunarcy said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryAnne11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done.  Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves.  We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day.  We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm:  You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage.  No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing.  We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women.  We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible.  They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.
> 
> At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives.  His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits.  It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.
> 
> Who would take such a job?  Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.
> 
> In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE.  People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.
> 
> And now we come to TEACHERS.
> 
> In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government).  Why would they do such a thing?  Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).
> 
> But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do.  Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage.  Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.
> 
> But there is no deception here.  Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road.  They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere.  The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it.  (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).
> 
> So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit.  As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."
> 
> Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done?  If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else.  Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth.  The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes.  So you end up with teachers making the following decision.  Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector.  I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession.  One stayed and one left.  The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.
> 
> I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it.  That ship sailed a few weeks ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The sheer anger here on this board is down right stupid.
> 
> Envy and greed seem to rule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “Excessive pensions “   Ridiculous
Click to expand...



If there is not money to pay for them, they are excessive.

I suggest you read up on the massive unfunded pension liabilities at the state and local levels across the country. It's quite shocking.


----------



## pismoe

hunarcy said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> but it  looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages  over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired .   ------------------------   and they ALL want more money and respect  Hunarcy .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such an impressive list!  But, out of 3.2 MILLION?  Still not many.  But, don’t let this stop your ignorant jihad against educators.
Click to expand...

----------------------  its all in a moment of searching so its all i could find as i don't have access to all of YOUR friends , teachers and colleagues   .   Hey , look , as i said , my kids are grown and went to School many . many years ago so i just do this for Fun .  As a way to measure Teacher success i just read articles about teaching incompetence , education failing and similar in the USA as i have already posted  .  At least , taxpayers that read my lists will be informed and they can either ignore or be informed about some teachers that they pay to molest and teach their kids ,  Its fun Hunarcy .


----------



## hunarcy

DGS49 said:


> For most people and for most situations, Unions are inappropriate and destructive.
> 
> Think about it: An employment contract is one of the most important agreements in one's life.  I agree to do some work, and another person or entity agrees to compensate me for it.  If the compensation is unacceptable, I don't agree. If my work is found to be unacceptable, the other party can terminate the contract.  If I find that my work is worth more than my compensation, I can bargain for better compensation, or take my services elsewhere, so that I can receive what I am worth.  90% (roughly) of the people in the private sector live their work lives according to these simple rules.
> 
> By introducing a Union into this scenario, a number of insidious factors come into play.  It is not MY work that determines may compensation, but the value of EVERYONE's work, from the best to the worst.  The best workers are discouraged from performing to their potential, because there is no advantage to doing so.  The worst workers find ways of doing as little as possible (and sometimes even sabotaging the work), because they know that they are very unlikely to see any ramifications for their laziness.  Personal advancement is discouraged because "standing out" is socially unacceptable in the union community.
> 
> Government employment is a lot like Union employment to start with, but then, when you formally adopt collective bargaining along with the "right" to strike, it becomes near evil.  In true collective bargaining, both sides must be reasonable. If the Union demands (and gets) too much, the viability of the enterprise is threatened, and everybody loses.  When a government union demands too much, management representatives are incentivized to make a good showing of "hard bargaining," but there is never any threat to the enterprise if the contract unreasonably favors the Union, so the end result is a gradual inflation of Union compensation to a level that has no rational relationship to what is being "produced" bye the Union members.
> 
> In our public dialog, one thing seldom mentioned is the outrageous generosity of the pensions.  The reason it "flies under the radar" is that the outrage is not the monthly or annual AMOUNT of the pensions, it is the DURATION of them.  Many government employees (especially teachers) are able to RETIRE in their EARLY 50's!  This is insane!  They will be, on average, on the public dole for 30 or more years while producing nothing!  So when we talk about "low" teacher salaries, remember that their full compensation is more than twice that annual amount, because they will be on the pension-dole for AS LONG AS THEIR WORKING LIVES.
> 
> Anyone reading this who goes on cruises will note how many of your fellow cruisers are retired teachers.  There are a couple reasons for this:  (a) they make a good retirement income, and (b) they are healthy are retired for two or three times as long as their private sector counterparts who retire at a normal 65 or 66.  For most people, the time to "have fun" is 8-10 years between retirement and, say 75, at which time activities are significantly curtailed due to the normal ravages of age.  But if you retire at 53 (normal for a teacher), you have over 20 years of. healthy, well compensated retirement before you have to significantly slow down.



I travel from time to time. I typically save 5years for each cruise or tour I take


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

hadit said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers?....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children.  *They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers *and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. *They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. *They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and* knowing how to put a condom on a banana *SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.
> 
> But they don't hate teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?
> 
> You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure.  Why do you not know what you are doing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you be specific?
Click to expand...


See the quote above. 

Red text - lie.
Orange text - Half truth.

Those have been hashed and rehashed so many times here that it is boring beyond belief. yet education bashers refuse to educate themselves.


----------



## hunarcy

boedicca said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, you said "excessive".  I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.
> 
> Move the goal posts much?  You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive.  Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage.  (Not)
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “Normal people” don’t get social security?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For people working today, SS is a net loss.  We would all do better investing that money for ourselves.  The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits.   Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That’s a failure of government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's the inevitable failure of a collectivist policy.  Sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
Click to expand...


I don’t disagree, but you pay into Social Security.  It’s your money that government failed to manage correctly


----------



## pismoe

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children.  *They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers *and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. *They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. *They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and* knowing how to put a condom on a banana *SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.
> 
> But they don't hate teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?
> 
> You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure.  Why do you not know what you are doing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you be specific?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See the quote above.
> 
> Red text - lie.
> Orange text - Half truth.
Click to expand...

--------------------------------------------------------   the good thing is that many see many teachers as unAmerican enemies and that all by itself is a good thing Hun and Admiral !!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive.  You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers,  because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.
> 
> You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada.  Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well.  They are also respected as a profession.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Good Lord... look through every post I have made here and you will see peppered in there how I appreciate teachers, how I had some great teachers, how my kids had some teachers that were really good.
> *HOWEVER... there are bad teachers. Too many. *And they are protected by an ingrained system that shuffles them around, pays them to do nothing...or worse the Principle has his hands tied so just leaves them in the classroom.
> That does not mean I hate teachers for f*cks sake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Who are these teachers?  Can you name them personally?
> 
> The *PRINCIPAL* does not have their hands tied.  They are more likely the problem in that he or she did not document the deficiencies you claim exist.  Do you even know their responsibilities?
> 
> What makes you think these are "bad" teachers?  What constitutes a bad teacher to you?
> 
> My money is you can't answer these questions because you are parroting talking points, just like you can't spell "principal".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You again?....blah blah blah.
> 
> Of course I can name the bad teachers I had, and my kids had. Everyone knew who they were/are.
> What is a bad teacher?  What kind of a question is that anyway? You ever hear the term 'self-evident'?
> Your money? According to you, you don't have any. So it is moot.
Click to expand...


Ah, you cannot answer the question.  Typical.


----------



## boedicca

hunarcy said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what normal people have to do:  save for their own retirements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Normal people” don’t get social security?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For people working today, SS is a net loss.  We would all do better investing that money for ourselves.  The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits.   Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That’s a failure of government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's the inevitable failure of a collectivist policy.  Sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don’t disagree, but you pay into Social Security.  It’s your money that government failed to manage correctly
Click to expand...



Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.

What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

boedicca said:


> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, *we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.*



Damn straight. (my emphasis)
401ks are an enormous rip off. They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed. 
401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
Corporatocracy at it's finest


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, *we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight. (my emphasis)
> 401ks are an enormous rip off. *They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%*. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed.
> 401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
> Corporatocracy at it's finest
Click to expand...


You must not know anything about 401Ks. 

I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.


----------



## pismoe

just a HEADS UP but talk on RUSH LIMBAUGH about SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS also being a big problem in the demise of good education in the USA .     Little i have heard so far is RUSH is talking about 'white privledge' brain washing being pushed by public school 'admins' .  -----------------   might want to listen in !!


----------



## bodecea

pismoe said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children.  *They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers *and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. *They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. *They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and* knowing how to put a condom on a banana *SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.
> 
> But they don't hate teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?
> 
> You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure.  Why do you not know what you are doing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you be specific?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See the quote above.
> 
> Red text - lie.
> Orange text - Half truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------   the good thing is that many see many teachers as unAmerican enemies and that all by itself is a good thing Hun and Admiral !!
Click to expand...

Well, I must say....they failed you.


----------



## bodecea

pismoe said:


> just a HEADS UP but talk on RUSH LIMBAUGH about SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS also being a big problem in the demise of good education in the USA .     Little i have heard so far is RUSH is talking about 'white privledge' brain washing being pushed by public school 'admins' .  -----------------   might want to listen in !!


Ah....you listen to rush and believe him religiously......I see the problem here.  Oh....and it's "white privilege"....you are welcome.


----------



## bodecea

pismoe said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> but it  looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages  over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired .   ------------------------   and they ALL want more money and respect  Hunarcy .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such an impressive list!  But, out of 3.2 MILLION?  Still not many.  But, don’t let this stop your ignorant jihad against educators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ----------------------  its all in a moment of searching so its all i could find as i don't have access to all of YOUR friends , teachers and colleagues   .   Hey , look , as i said , my kids are grown and went to School many . many years ago so i just do this for Fun .  As a way to measure Teacher success i just read articles about teaching incompetence , education failing and similar in the USA as i have already posted  .  At least , taxpayers that read my lists will be informed and they can either ignore or be informed about some teachers that they pay to molest and teach their kids ,  Its fun Hunarcy .
Click to expand...

Where are those articles you supposedly read?


----------



## pismoe

no , i listen to RUSH to see if his info is informative in the same way you MAY listen to 'mrobama' , illary and 'ralphy maddow'   Bodecia ,


----------



## pismoe

bodecea said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> but it  looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages  over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired .   ------------------------   and they ALL want more money and respect  Hunarcy .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such an impressive list!  But, out of 3.2 MILLION?  Still not many.  But, don’t let this stop your ignorant jihad against educators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ----------------------  its all in a moment of searching so its all i could find as i don't have access to all of YOUR friends , teachers and colleagues   .   Hey , look , as i said , my kids are grown and went to School many . many years ago so i just do this for Fun .  As a way to measure Teacher success i just read articles about teaching incompetence , education failing and similar in the USA as i have already posted  .  At least , taxpayers that read my lists will be informed and they can either ignore or be informed about some teachers that they pay to molest and teach their kids ,  Its fun Hunarcy .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where are those articles you supposedly read?
Click to expand...

------------------------------------------------   quite a few pages back , not really articles , more or less they are police reports of teachers arrested for didling young kid students  Bodecia .


----------



## Unkotare

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> They don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overgeneralization
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Far from it!  This forum is sufficient proof!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You take this forum as representative of society as a whole?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  Every news site, Facebook page, and other forums I visit show the same total disdain and ignorance about education from many conservatives.
Click to expand...




You’re hanging with the wrong crowd.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, *we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight. (my emphasis)
> 401ks are an enormous rip off. *They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%*. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed.
> 401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
> Corporatocracy at it's finest
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You must not know anything about 401Ks.
> 
> I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.
Click to expand...


  Are you a stalker?
I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, *we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight. (my emphasis)
> 401ks are an enormous rip off. *They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%*. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed.
> 401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
> Corporatocracy at it's finest
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You must not know anything about 401Ks.
> 
> I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a stalker?
> I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
> You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
> We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.
Click to expand...


OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?

The stock market, DUH!

Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, *we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight. (my emphasis)
> 401ks are an enormous rip off. *They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%*. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed.
> 401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
> Corporatocracy at it's finest
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You must not know anything about 401Ks.
> 
> I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a stalker?
> I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
> You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
> We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?
> 
> The stock market, DUH!
> 
> Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!
Click to expand...


What in the hell are you talking about??
Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages. 
No wonder you a only a substitute!!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, *we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight. (my emphasis)
> 401ks are an enormous rip off. *They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%*. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed.
> 401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
> Corporatocracy at it's finest
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You must not know anything about 401Ks.
> 
> I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a stalker?
> I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
> You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
> We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?
> 
> The stock market, DUH!
> 
> Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What in the hell are you talking about??
> Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
> I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages.
> No wonder you a only a substitute!!
Click to expand...


Logic, dumbass!

If the 401K is in the market, it should perform at the same level as the market averages if invested properly.

You really are dumber than a box of rocks!


----------



## boedicca

iamwhatiseem said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, *we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight. (my emphasis)
> 401ks are an enormous rip off. *They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%*. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed.
> 401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
> Corporatocracy at it's finest
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You must not know anything about 401Ks.
> 
> I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a stalker?
> I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
> You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
> We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?
> 
> The stock market, DUH!
> 
> Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What in the hell are you talking about??
> Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
> I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages.
> No wonder you a only a substitute!!
Click to expand...



401Ks provide limited choices for participants.   

But the real drawback is that the Feds always have the option to jack up taxes through the roof when you withdraw the funds in retirement.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Logic, dumbass!
> 
> If the 401K is in the market, it should perform at the same level as the market averages if invested properly.
> 
> You really are dumber than a box of rocks!




HAHAHAHA............ look at this everybody....and this guy is a TEACHER!!!


----------



## iamwhatiseem

boedicca said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Damn straight. (my emphasis)
> 401ks are an enormous rip off. *They consistently under perform the markets by as much as 5-6%*. All they really are is slush money for the financial system as a whole, and since it's inception - company after company dropped pension plans that were FULLY PAID for by the employer!! And guaranteed.
> 401ks are an abysmal replacement for traditional pensions that are now history.
> Corporatocracy at it's finest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You must not know anything about 401Ks.
> 
> I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a stalker?
> I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
> You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
> We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?
> 
> The stock market, DUH!
> 
> Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What in the hell are you talking about??
> Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
> I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages.
> No wonder you a only a substitute!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 401Ks provide limited choices for participants.
> 
> But the real drawback is that the Feds always have the option to jack up taxes through the roof when you withdraw the funds in retirement.
Click to expand...


As well as companies can stop matching your contribution anytime they want.
Companies used to finance 100% of employee pension plans...._"but lookee here.... 401ks!!!...whoohoo...we'll tell them this is awesome...and it is "Free Money" for them cause we love them so much...and then in a few years phase out pension plans so they will finance their own retirements!!!...are we awesome or what!"._......... said every company CEO/CFO


----------



## boedicca

iamwhatiseem said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must not know anything about 401Ks.
> 
> I think we are starting to see a trend here with all of things you think you know about, yet don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a stalker?
> I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
> You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
> We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?
> 
> The stock market, DUH!
> 
> Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What in the hell are you talking about??
> Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
> I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages.
> No wonder you a only a substitute!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 401Ks provide limited choices for participants.
> 
> But the real drawback is that the Feds always have the option to jack up taxes through the roof when you withdraw the funds in retirement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As well as companies can stop matching your contribution anytime they want.
> Companies used to finance 100% of employee pension plans...._"but lookee here.... 401ks!!!...whoohoo...we'll tell them this is awesome...and it is "Free Money" for them cause we love them so much...and then in a few years phase out pension plans so they will finance their own retirements!!!...are we awesome or what!"._......... said every company CEO/CFO
Click to expand...



It's not a company's job to guarantee our retirement.  The root problem is out burdensome income tax system.   I'd rather have all of my compensation under my control to decide how much and where to invest.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

boedicca said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a stalker?
> I think we see why you are in the classroom now, well part-time because you can't even hack that.
> You know the saying "for those that can't do...teach".
> We see clearly by you how that saying was formed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?
> 
> The stock market, DUH!
> 
> Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What in the hell are you talking about??
> Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
> I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages.
> No wonder you a only a substitute!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 401Ks provide limited choices for participants.
> 
> But the real drawback is that the Feds always have the option to jack up taxes through the roof when you withdraw the funds in retirement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As well as companies can stop matching your contribution anytime they want.
> Companies used to finance 100% of employee pension plans...._"but lookee here.... 401ks!!!...whoohoo...we'll tell them this is awesome...and it is "Free Money" for them cause we love them so much...and then in a few years phase out pension plans so they will finance their own retirements!!!...are we awesome or what!"._......... said every company CEO/CFO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a company's job to guarantee our retirement.  The root problem is out burdensome income tax system.   I'd rather have all of my compensation under my control to decide how much and where to invest.
Click to expand...


It should be. That was the deal. Pensions were a part of your compensation package. It would be no less wrong to say companies are not responsible for our wages. It was a part of our end of the "service for hire" deal.


----------



## boedicca

iamwhatiseem said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, dumbass!  I wasn't going to embarrass you but where are funds in 401Ks usually invested?
> 
> The stock market, DUH!
> 
> Being stupid is not a crime, but you should at least realize how stupid you are!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What in the hell are you talking about??
> Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
> I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages.
> No wonder you a only a substitute!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 401Ks provide limited choices for participants.
> 
> But the real drawback is that the Feds always have the option to jack up taxes through the roof when you withdraw the funds in retirement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As well as companies can stop matching your contribution anytime they want.
> Companies used to finance 100% of employee pension plans...._"but lookee here.... 401ks!!!...whoohoo...we'll tell them this is awesome...and it is "Free Money" for them cause we love them so much...and then in a few years phase out pension plans so they will finance their own retirements!!!...are we awesome or what!"._......... said every company CEO/CFO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a company's job to guarantee our retirement.  The root problem is out burdensome income tax system.   I'd rather have all of my compensation under my control to decide how much and where to invest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It should be. That was the deal. Pensions were a part of your compensation package. It would be no less wrong to say companies are not responsible for our wages. It was a part of our end of the "service for hire" deal.
Click to expand...



OK. Then you risk a company being in control of a pool of pension assets, with all the moral hazard that has led to underfunded pensions.

This, and health care, are just gimmicks put in place to get around wage controls and tax disincentives.

If your pension contribution was added to your cash comp and tax exempt for retirement account purposes, you'd be far better off.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

boedicca said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> What in the hell are you talking about??
> Of course I know 401ks are invested in the markets. What made you think I didn't?
> I said, 401ks consistently underperform in the market averages.
> No wonder you a only a substitute!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 401Ks provide limited choices for participants.
> 
> But the real drawback is that the Feds always have the option to jack up taxes through the roof when you withdraw the funds in retirement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As well as companies can stop matching your contribution anytime they want.
> Companies used to finance 100% of employee pension plans...._"but lookee here.... 401ks!!!...whoohoo...we'll tell them this is awesome...and it is "Free Money" for them cause we love them so much...and then in a few years phase out pension plans so they will finance their own retirements!!!...are we awesome or what!"._......... said every company CEO/CFO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a company's job to guarantee our retirement.  The root problem is out burdensome income tax system.   I'd rather have all of my compensation under my control to decide how much and where to invest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It should be. That was the deal. Pensions were a part of your compensation package. It would be no less wrong to say companies are not responsible for our wages. It was a part of our end of the "service for hire" deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Then you risk a company being in control of a pool of pension assets, with all the moral hazard that has led to underfunded pensions.
> 
> This, and health care, are just gimmicks put in place to get around wage controls and tax disincentives.
> 
> If your pension contribution was added to your cash comp and tax exempt for retirement account purposes, you'd be far better off.
Click to expand...


Not as long as they were properly regulated.
I am one of the rare people my age (53), works in the private industry and have the fantastic  benefit of having 20 years with an old fashioned real pension. It wasn't the evil companies that raided pension funds etc. It was the evil companies colluding with the government to remove the regulations that prevented them from getting their hands on it. Enron, etc. were not original pension plan sets, they were modified "investment" pensions in which a  large percentage of your pension is shares in the company.
   Since my pension is the old plans that are locked away in guaranteed asset funds held by an independent firm -  regardless of the companies finances, no matter what happens to them.... I will get my $2,200 a month. That doesn't sound like much I know, I would have loved to have been able to add another 10 years to that, but they froze the plans in 2004.


----------



## hunarcy

pismoe said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> but it  looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages  over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired .   ------------------------   and they ALL want more money and respect  Hunarcy .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such an impressive list!  But, out of 3.2 MILLION?  Still not many.  But, don’t let this stop your ignorant jihad against educators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ----------------------  its all in a moment of searching so its all i could find as i don't have access to all of YOUR friends , teachers and colleagues   .   Hey , look , as i said , my kids are grown and went to School many . many years ago so i just do this for Fun .  As a way to measure Teacher success i just read articles about teaching incompetence , education failing and similar in the USA as i have already posted  .  At least , taxpayers that read my lists will be informed and they can either ignore or be informed about some teachers that they pay to molest and teach their kids ,  Its fun Hunarcy .
Click to expand...


Unlike the politicians you support, when teachers behave that way, they are indicted and put on trial.


----------



## hunarcy

pismoe said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children.  *They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers *and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. *They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. *They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and* knowing how to put a condom on a banana *SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.
> 
> But they don't hate teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?
> 
> You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure.  Why do you not know what you are doing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you be specific?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See the quote above.
> 
> Red text - lie.
> Orange text - Half truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------   the good thing is that many see many teachers as unAmerican enemies and that all by itself is a good thing Hun and Admiral !!
Click to expand...


The TRUTH is that most of the teachers I work with are very conservative and are the guardians of our culture.  We are hindered by society's expectation that their children be entertained, by State Education Departments and Federal authorities that insist that every child is going to lockstep out of the high school and straight into college, when the reality is that we know that college is not for everyone and each student should be allowed to choose.  We deal with children who live in some of the worst conditions through no fault of their own and help them learn in spite of their circumstances.  You are free to stereotype me and Admiral, but the fact is your prejudices (probably based on the fact that you didn't have the best experience in school) don't define me.  They merely limit your ability to cope with the truth.


----------



## hunarcy

boedicca said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> “Normal people” don’t get social security?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For people working today, SS is a net loss.  We would all do better investing that money for ourselves.  The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits.   Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That’s a failure of government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's the inevitable failure of a collectivist policy.  Sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don’t disagree, but you pay into Social Security.  It’s your money that government failed to manage correctly
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.
Click to expand...


Then, shouldn't we take it out on our representatives?


----------



## Dekster

iamwhatiseem said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have long said teachers pay should commensurate with the results of their teaching. Merit based.
> I have zero problem with my tax dollars paying a teacher very good wages as long as their performance is equally high.
> I have a HUGE problem with teachers making $50k a year with very good bene's and more time off in one year than most people get in 5 years...and their performance is abysmal. Every single school system carries the weight of teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. Some schools have teachers so bad they pay them to sit in rooms and do absolutely nothing. Known as "rubber rooms".  I remember one Chicago system that employed something like 400 teachers I believe, and had something like 30 teachers in such programs. How can they afford to pay better wages when 10% of the employees are paid to do nothing??
Click to expand...


That would require letting teachers teach which would require repealing No CHild Left Behind


----------



## Dekster

MaryAnne11 said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever hear of volunteer fire departments?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You would be surprised how fast Volunteers get to a fire. Of course in a big,rural area that would be impossible. But we lived in a TWP that had 4 Fire Stations.
> 
> When the TWP became a city they were able to hire , but we had already moved, so it did not affect us. It is very hard work but rewarding.
Click to expand...


One of my brothers was on his areas VFD.  A guy I worked with had his house catch on fire.  He was telling us the story, suddenly stopped and looked me straight in the eyes, and said, "And your damned brother just leaned against the truck".  Of course I asked him and he was, "Yep pretty much.  Nobody in the house, so not much to do except stand there while it burned down.  Fully involved when we got there, so we mostly just tried to keep it from setting the fields on fire.."


----------



## Dekster

rightwinger said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are wiling to pay for a service  you will probably never need, but let children use a broken educational system.  Please relocate to a third world shit hole ASAP, you will love it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have called 911 a few times.  The first responders are here usually in about 2 minutes.  The only thing that has broken the educational system is standardization and treating it like a profession instead of a job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Teachers are very professional
> 
> They should be compensated as such
Click to expand...


Should the students be well compensated for the stud services they provide to these "professionals"?


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are still some out in the hinderlands of our county.  My brother did it for awhile.  They are not allowed to make entry into a burning structure unless there is a 100% confirmed live person in it.  The EMT's keep threatening to quit unless they get paid what the paid ambulance service people get.  The list goes on and on and on as to why they are a bad idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ours work great here, maybe its that lack of education that hinders your area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My high school had a 97% college acceptance rate.  Try another straw
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure it did, there is no where in the US that has a 3% dropout rate.
Click to expand...


What happened at my Magnet school and what happened at yours are two different things.


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but those of us who live in civilization like to get somebody there in less than 30 minutes when our house is on fire or our heart stops ticking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are wiling to pay for a service  you will probably never need, but let children use a broken educational system.  Please relocate to a third world shit hole ASAP, you will love it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have called 911 a few times.  The first responders are here usually in about 2 minutes.  The only thing that has broken the educational system is standardization and treating it like a profession instead of a job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would you need 911?  Can't imagine you have crime or medical problems or accidents with such highly educated folk about.
Click to expand...

 Once for an old woman with stroke like symptoms and a lot in the neighborhood kept going up in flames.  They first blamed tossed cigarettes.  Then they blamed arson.  And eventually discerned that it was because the trees were rubbing the electric lines.  Education doesn't keep people from getting old and sick, nor does it prevent an absentee landlord from allowing his land to become a fire hazard.  Any other questions?


----------



## saveliberty

Dekster said:


> What happened at my Magnet school and what happened at yours are two different things.



Didn't happen at yours for sure.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Dekster said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have long said teachers pay should commensurate with the results of their teaching. Merit based.
> I have zero problem with my tax dollars paying a teacher very good wages as long as their performance is equally high.
> I have a HUGE problem with teachers making $50k a year with very good bene's and more time off in one year than most people get in 5 years...and their performance is abysmal. Every single school system carries the weight of teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. Some schools have teachers so bad they pay them to sit in rooms and do absolutely nothing. Known as "rubber rooms".  I remember one Chicago system that employed something like 400 teachers I believe, and had something like 30 teachers in such programs. How can they afford to pay better wages when 10% of the employees are paid to do nothing??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would require letting teachers teach which would require repealing No CHild Left Behind
Click to expand...



Hey dumbass!  NCLB was repealed when Obama was still in office, back in December 2015!  Catch a clue!

Obama signs new K-12 education law that ends No Child Left Behind


----------



## Dekster

saveliberty said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened at my Magnet school and what happened at yours are two different things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't happen at yours for sure.
Click to expand...


Sure it did.  You just don't like that some schools are successful, particularly ones that you have to have more than a pulse rate to attend.


----------



## Dekster

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have long said teachers pay should commensurate with the results of their teaching. Merit based.
> I have zero problem with my tax dollars paying a teacher very good wages as long as their performance is equally high.
> I have a HUGE problem with teachers making $50k a year with very good bene's and more time off in one year than most people get in 5 years...and their performance is abysmal. Every single school system carries the weight of teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. Some schools have teachers so bad they pay them to sit in rooms and do absolutely nothing. Known as "rubber rooms".  I remember one Chicago system that employed something like 400 teachers I believe, and had something like 30 teachers in such programs. How can they afford to pay better wages when 10% of the employees are paid to do nothing??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would require letting teachers teach which would require repealing No CHild Left Behind
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey dumbass!  NCLB was repealed when Obama was still in office, back in December 2015!  Catch a clue!
> 
> Obama signs new K-12 education law that ends No Child Left Behind
Click to expand...


Hey dumbass changing the name doesn't let teachers teach.  It still has the same mandatory testing requirements that don't let teachers teach anything but the test.  Of course you don't see that because you think it is better that students count on their fingers and go through some contrived process rather than actually learn their multiplication tables.


----------



## boedicca

iamwhatiseem said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 401Ks provide limited choices for participants.
> 
> But the real drawback is that the Feds always have the option to jack up taxes through the roof when you withdraw the funds in retirement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As well as companies can stop matching your contribution anytime they want.
> Companies used to finance 100% of employee pension plans...._"but lookee here.... 401ks!!!...whoohoo...we'll tell them this is awesome...and it is "Free Money" for them cause we love them so much...and then in a few years phase out pension plans so they will finance their own retirements!!!...are we awesome or what!"._......... said every company CEO/CFO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a company's job to guarantee our retirement.  The root problem is out burdensome income tax system.   I'd rather have all of my compensation under my control to decide how much and where to invest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It should be. That was the deal. Pensions were a part of your compensation package. It would be no less wrong to say companies are not responsible for our wages. It was a part of our end of the "service for hire" deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Then you risk a company being in control of a pool of pension assets, with all the moral hazard that has led to underfunded pensions.
> 
> This, and health care, are just gimmicks put in place to get around wage controls and tax disincentives.
> 
> If your pension contribution was added to your cash comp and tax exempt for retirement account purposes, you'd be far better off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not as long as they were properly regulated.
> I am one of the rare people my age (53), works in the private industry and have the fantastic  benefit of having 20 years with an old fashioned real pension. It wasn't the evil companies that raided pension funds etc. It was the evil companies colluding with the government to remove the regulations that prevented them from getting their hands on it. Enron, etc. were not original pension plan sets, they were modified "investment" pensions in which a  large percentage of your pension is shares in the company.
> Since my pension is the old plans that are locked away in guaranteed asset funds held by an independent firm -  regardless of the companies finances, no matter what happens to them.... I will get my $2,200 a month. That doesn't sound like much I know, I would have loved to have been able to add another 10 years to that, but they froze the plans in 2004.
Click to expand...



Oh blah blah blah evil companies.


----------



## boedicca

hunarcy said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> For people working today, SS is a net loss.  We would all do better investing that money for ourselves.  The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits.   Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s a failure of government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's the inevitable failure of a collectivist policy.  Sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don’t disagree, but you pay into Social Security.  It’s your money that government failed to manage correctly
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that nobody has a right to their SS payments. It should be our money, but as the government has spent it all, that is cold comfort.
> 
> What we need are individualized accounts that the government can't touch. Instead, we see the Dems advocating for things such as nationalized 401K plans in order to provide some assets to stave off the inevitable cratering of the SS ponzi scheme.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then, shouldn't we take it out on our representatives?
Click to expand...



Yes, we should.  Good luck with that given the appalling ignorance of a large portion of the voting public.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Dekster said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dekster said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is only so much money to go around.  Raising education spending may require cuts to police or fire departments or highways or whatever.  States cannot print their own money so if teachers need to be paid more, then you should tell us what you think should be cut to pay for it.  Whenever teacher pay makes the front page of the paper (or police pay or sanitation workers pay) I know for certain I can expect 1)  to see the real estate assessor's car setting in front of my house reassessing my property and 2)  Enhanced enforcement of zoning/local code is about to start up.  They just raised rates over 11% this year so they know they will not be able to raise those again anytime soon so they will inflate assessments.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you get what you pay for
> 
> If education is not a priority, teachers are always at the back of the line
> A college educated teacher who is not even making $40,000 after ten years on the job will find better options
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have long said teachers pay should commensurate with the results of their teaching. Merit based.
> I have zero problem with my tax dollars paying a teacher very good wages as long as their performance is equally high.
> I have a HUGE problem with teachers making $50k a year with very good bene's and more time off in one year than most people get in 5 years...and their performance is abysmal. Every single school system carries the weight of teachers they can't get rid of due to teachers unions making it basically impossible to fire a teacher over performance, no matter how bad. Some schools have teachers so bad they pay them to sit in rooms and do absolutely nothing. Known as "rubber rooms".  I remember one Chicago system that employed something like 400 teachers I believe, and had something like 30 teachers in such programs. How can they afford to pay better wages when 10% of the employees are paid to do nothing??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would require letting teachers teach which would require repealing No CHild Left Behind
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey dumbass!  NCLB was repealed when Obama was still in office, back in December 2015!  Catch a clue!
> 
> Obama signs new K-12 education law that ends No Child Left Behind
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey dumbass changing the name doesn't let teachers teach.  It still has the same mandatory testing requirements that don't let teachers teach anything but the test.  Of course you don't see that because you think it is better that students count on their fingers and go through some contrived process rather than actually learn their multiplication tables.
Click to expand...



More stupid from you?  NCLB required Common Core standards.  The new ESSA law does not.  You are so ignorant that you do not know the difference.

As to teaching to the test, that is hopefully what teachers have done forever, and will continue to do.

 Why would test something you don't teach?  That's automatic failure.  If the test is on geometry, shouldn't you actually be teaching geometry?

Why would you teach something you do not test?  That's a waste of time!  Why would I teach probability and statistics to my 8th graders if it was not on their test?

You amateur "teacher wannabees" never put forth the time and effort to actually think about it!  Unfortunately, there are a few teachers who do not understand this either!


----------



## iamwhatiseem

boedicca said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> As well as companies can stop matching your contribution anytime they want.
> Companies used to finance 100% of employee pension plans...._"but lookee here.... 401ks!!!...whoohoo...we'll tell them this is awesome...and it is "Free Money" for them cause we love them so much...and then in a few years phase out pension plans so they will finance their own retirements!!!...are we awesome or what!"._......... said every company CEO/CFO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a company's job to guarantee our retirement.  The root problem is out burdensome income tax system.   I'd rather have all of my compensation under my control to decide how much and where to invest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It should be. That was the deal. Pensions were a part of your compensation package. It would be no less wrong to say companies are not responsible for our wages. It was a part of our end of the "service for hire" deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Then you risk a company being in control of a pool of pension assets, with all the moral hazard that has led to underfunded pensions.
> 
> This, and health care, are just gimmicks put in place to get around wage controls and tax disincentives.
> 
> If your pension contribution was added to your cash comp and tax exempt for retirement account purposes, you'd be far better off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not as long as they were properly regulated.
> I am one of the rare people my age (53), works in the private industry and have the fantastic  benefit of having 20 years with an old fashioned real pension. It wasn't the evil companies that raided pension funds etc. It was the evil companies colluding with the government to remove the regulations that prevented them from getting their hands on it. Enron, etc. were not original pension plan sets, they were modified "investment" pensions in which a  large percentage of your pension is shares in the company.
> Since my pension is the old plans that are locked away in guaranteed asset funds held by an independent firm -  regardless of the companies finances, no matter what happens to them.... I will get my $2,200 a month. That doesn't sound like much I know, I would have loved to have been able to add another 10 years to that, but they froze the plans in 2004.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh blah blah blah evil companies.
Click to expand...


Pretty much


----------



## Unkotare

iamwhatiseem said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a company's job to guarantee our retirement.  The root problem is out burdensome income tax system.   I'd rather have all of my compensation under my control to decide how much and where to invest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It should be. That was the deal. Pensions were a part of your compensation package. It would be no less wrong to say companies are not responsible for our wages. It was a part of our end of the "service for hire" deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Then you risk a company being in control of a pool of pension assets, with all the moral hazard that has led to underfunded pensions.
> 
> This, and health care, are just gimmicks put in place to get around wage controls and tax disincentives.
> 
> If your pension contribution was added to your cash comp and tax exempt for retirement account purposes, you'd be far better off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not as long as they were properly regulated.
> I am one of the rare people my age (53), works in the private industry and have the fantastic  benefit of having 20 years with an old fashioned real pension. It wasn't the evil companies that raided pension funds etc. It was the evil companies colluding with the government to remove the regulations that prevented them from getting their hands on it. Enron, etc. were not original pension plan sets, they were modified "investment" pensions in which a  large percentage of your pension is shares in the company.
> Since my pension is the old plans that are locked away in guaranteed asset funds held by an independent firm -  regardless of the companies finances, no matter what happens to them.... I will get my $2,200 a month. That doesn't sound like much I know, I would have loved to have been able to add another 10 years to that, but they froze the plans in 2004.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh blah blah blah evil companies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pretty much
Click to expand...





Are you kidding)


----------



## sealybobo

rightwinger said:


> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth



First of all, teachers make plenty of money.  They won't stop complaining even if you pay them $100K a year.  They'll still complain.  So money is not the issue.  Many of the people who went into teaching regret it but they aren't cut out to do anything else.

Here is another thing to consider.  Unemployment is very low for teachers.  So, it's easy to find a job.  Very few teachers out of work.

And if teachers deserve more pay, don't we all?

8 College Degrees With The Lowest Unemployment Rates

Here’s the top 8:






Is unkotare worth more than


----------



## initforme

Plenty of bad companies out there no doubt.


----------



## Unkotare

MaryAnne11 said:


> Most of those Teachers work at other jobs,or continue their Education during the Summer months. I do not know one that takes a 3  month vacation.


.


----------



## hunarcy

MaryAnne11 said:


> Most of those Teachers work at other jobs,or continue their Education during the Summer months. I do not know one that takes a 3  month vacation.



Teachers are so underpaid that many HAVE to work two jobs throughout the year and not just in the summer in order to survive, while fitting in summer trainings and continuing education requirements to maintain their certification.  And, most school calendars extend into the summer now, so they aren't off 3 months anymore.


----------



## Cellblock2429

hunarcy said:


> Teachers are so underpaid that many HAVE to work two jobs throughout the year and not just in the summer in order to survive, while fitting in summer trainings and continuing education requirements to maintain their certification.  And, most school calendars extend into the summer now, so they aren't off 3 months anymore.


/——/ I was married to a Catholic School teacher for 37 years and 9 months. You speak the truth.

 In addition teachers dig into their pockets to pay for school supplies for their students that the bloated school budgets won’t supply.


----------



## Cellblock2429

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——/ I was married to a Catholic School teacher for 37 years and 9 months. You speak the truth.
> 
> In addition teachers dig into their pockets to pay for school supplies for their students that the bloated school budgets won’t supply.


/——/ Make that 47 years and 9 months. Just now saw the typo and too late to edit it.


----------



## hadit

hunarcy said:


> Teachers are so underpaid that many HAVE to work two jobs throughout the year and not just in the summer in order to survive, while fitting in summer trainings and continuing education requirements to maintain their certification.  And, most school calendars extend into the summer now, so they aren't off 3 months anymore.


Keep in mind where the teaching profession started in the US. The first teachers were young, unmarried women. And in that day, young unmarried women were not deemed worthy of high pay or social status. We're still feeling the effects of that when we put teachers at the bottom of the social status list. The Japanese have a completely different view of their teachers, both giving them high social status and expecting a great deal from them and it certainly seems to be paying off in the quality of the education their kids receive. It shows what can be accomplished when motivated parents team up with motivated teachers.


----------



## DGS49

Any generalization about teacher compensation is bound to be incorrect.  Teacher compensation is all over the lot, even within the same geographical area.

All of the arguments have been repeated ad infinitum.  Teaching is not a full-time job.  A typical worker works approximately 2000 hours per year, teachers - especially in the last half of their careers - work a little more than half that.  They used to say that teachers had to spend their summers preparing for the following year and/or taking required classes, but this doesn't apply after the first couple years.  The old truism is that there are only three reasons to teach: June, July, and August.

The advent of collective bargaining was the worst development in the history of American public education.  The teachers now have advocates who have a vested interest in preventing any meaningful performance assessments of teachers, and preventing their termination for any reason short of copulating with students.

The teachers' unions have done more political harm than most people can imagine.  The Political Left cowers at the feet of the union bosses, and even last year, when the teachers' unions refused to allow normal teaching despite a mountain of evidence proving that the Covid dangers were almost entirely imaginary, the political Left refused to rein them in.

Disgusting.


----------



## Winco

DGS49 said:


> All of the arguments have been repeated ad infinitum. *Teaching is not a full-time job.* A typical worker works approximately 2000 hours per year, *teachers - especially in the last half of their careers - work a little more than half that.* They used to say that teachers had to spend their summers preparing for the following year and/or taking required classes,* but this doesn't apply after the first couple years.* The old truism is that there are *only three reasons to teach: June, July, and August.*


How did I miss this "beauty" of a thread.  LOOLLOOL
So much Hate and Untruth in Purple.

In my 37th year of teaching:
1). I spend at least 2-3 additional hours, 2-3 nights a week.  Including Weekends too.
I also have a second job, 3 hours per night, MWThF, so 12 additional work hours that I choose to do.  No one is making me do this extra job.
2). We are constantly required to update our Certificate, by taking required classes/training.
When I started teaching, there were no students using computers/laptops and remote teaching and learning was a distant thought.
3). States have different opening and closing date, in MY State, we start in Late August, and end in Mid-Late June.  You got one thing correct, there is no school in July.
4). Meaning we get 9-10 weeks in the summer without students.  Why you feel the need to imply 13 weeks (June, July and August) shows weakness in your argument.

Would you like to counter any of my Factual Statements?


----------



## hunarcy

DGS49 said:


> Any generalization about teacher compensation is bound to be incorrect.  Teacher compensation is all over the lot, even within the same geographical area.
> 
> All of the arguments have been repeated ad infinitum.  Teaching is not a full-time job.  A typical worker works approximately 2000 hours per year, teachers - especially in the last half of their careers - work a little more than half that.  They used to say that teachers had to spend their summers preparing for the following year and/or taking required classes, but this doesn't apply after the first couple years.  The old truism is that there are only three reasons to teach: June, July, and August.
> 
> The advent of collective bargaining was the worst development in the history of American public education.  The teachers now have advocates who have a vested interest in preventing any meaningful performance assessments of teachers, and preventing their termination for any reason short of copulating with students.
> 
> The teachers' unions have done more political harm than most people can imagine.  The Political Left cowers at the feet of the union bosses, and even last year, when the teachers' unions refused to allow normal teaching despite a mountain of evidence proving that the Covid dangers were almost entirely imaginary, the political Left refused to rein them in.
> 
> Disgusting.



You are ignorant and repeating worn out slanders.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> First of all, teachers make plenty of money.  They won't stop complaining even if you pay them $100K a year.  They'll still complain.  So money is not the issue.  Many of the people who went into teaching regret it but they aren't cut out to do anything else.
> 
> Here is another thing to consider.  Unemployment is very low for teachers.  So, it's easy to find a job.  Very few teachers out of work.
> 
> And if teachers deserve more pay, don't we all?
> 
> 8 College Degrees With The Lowest Unemployment Rates
> 
> Here’s the top 8:
> 
> View attachment 259690
> 
> Is unkotare worth more than



You would not last three days put together in my job. Not three. Guaranteed.


----------



## SweetSue92

DGS49 said:


> Any generalization about teacher compensation is bound to be incorrect.  Teacher compensation is all over the lot, even within the same geographical area.
> 
> All of the arguments have been repeated ad infinitum.  Teaching is not a full-time job.  A typical worker works approximately 2000 hours per year, teachers - especially in the last half of their careers - work a little more than half that.  They used to say that teachers had to spend their summers preparing for the following year and/or taking required classes, but this doesn't apply after the first couple years.  The old truism is that there are only three reasons to teach: June, July, and August.
> 
> The advent of collective bargaining was the worst development in the history of American public education.  The teachers now have advocates who have a vested interest in preventing any meaningful performance assessments of teachers, and preventing their termination for any reason short of copulating with students.
> 
> The teachers' unions have done more political harm than most people can imagine.  The Political Left cowers at the feet of the union bosses, and even last year, when the teachers' unions refused to allow normal teaching despite a mountain of evidence proving that the Covid dangers were almost entirely imaginary, the political Left refused to rein them in.
> 
> Disgusting.



1985 called it wants its talking points back


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ...  Teaching is not a full-time job. ....


----------



## Unkotare

SweetSue92 said:


> You would not last three days put together in my job. Not three. Guaranteed.


He wouldn't last ONE.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> Any generalization about teacher compensation is bound to be incorrect.  Teacher compensation is all over the lot, even within the same geographical area.
> 
> All of the arguments have been repeated ad infinitum.  Teaching is not a full-time job.  A typical worker works approximately 2000 hours per year, teachers - especially in the last half of their careers - work a little more than half that.  They used to say that teachers had to spend their summers preparing for the following year and/or taking required classes, but this doesn't apply after the first couple years.  The old truism is that there are only three reasons to teach: June, July, and August.
> 
> The advent of collective bargaining was the worst development in the history of American public education.  The teachers now have advocates who have a vested interest in preventing any meaningful performance assessments of teachers, and preventing their termination for any reason short of copulating with students.
> 
> The teachers' unions have done more political harm than most people can imagine.  The Political Left cowers at the feet of the union bosses, and even last year, when the teachers' unions refused to allow normal teaching despite a mountain of evidence proving that the Covid dangers were almost entirely imaginary, the political Left refused to rein them in.
> 
> Disgusting.


Know what would be great? If you had the slightest idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Unkotare said:


> He wouldn't last ONE.


I doubt they could make it until lunchtime without curling into a fetal position and crying themselves to sleep.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> You would not last three days put together in my job. Not three. Guaranteed.


Why? We’ve all been in classrooms with teachers why don’t any of us hav respect for you guys?

I mean none of us would like to do your job but that doesn’t mean we couldn’t do it. What couldn’t I do? Explain what would make me snap.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> He wouldn't last ONE.


Yea. I wouldn’t last one minute in the ring with you or one minute in your classroom. Suuuure.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Why? We’ve all been in classrooms with teachers why don’t any of us hav respect for you guys?
> 
> I mean none of us would like to do your job but that doesn’t mean we couldn’t do it. What couldn’t I do? Explain what would make me snap.



I teach 150 elementary children every single day. In one day. 5th grade, Kind, 4th gr, lunch. 3rd grade, 1st grade, 2nd grade. That's one day. Get up the next day, do it all over again. Every day. We work like dogs. You have no earthly idea.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> I teach 150 elementary children every single day. In one day. 5th grade, Kind, 4th gr, lunch. 3rd grade, 1st grade, 2nd grade. That's one day. Get up the next day, do it all over again. Every day. We work like dogs. You have no earthly idea.


Yea I wouldn’t want to do it.


----------



## gulfman

Teachers are prima donnas.They have never had real jobs.They are too pampered.Overpaid,too many paid holidays.But wait,they grade papers at night(Oh the humanity).They must be exhausted the next morning.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> I teach 150 elementary children every single day. In one day. 5th grade, Kind, 4th gr, lunch. 3rd grade, 1st grade, 2nd grade. That's one day. Get up the next day, do it all over again. Every day. We work like dogs. You have no earthly idea.


I can’t send you a pm. I wanted to tell you Most everything I say rotten is intended to piss unkotard off. If you see me talking to him take what I say with a spoonful of salt.


----------



## SweetSue92

gulfman said:


> Teachers are prima donnas.They have never had real jobs.They are too pampered.Overpaid,too many paid holidays.But wait,they grade papers at night(Oh the humanity).They must be exhausted the next morning.



What I just posted to sealy. I teach 150 elementary students in a single day. Six classes a day: 5th grade, Kind, 4th grade. Lunch. 3rd grade, 1st grade, 4th grade. That is ONE DAY. Get up the next day, do it all over again. Right, that sure is "pampered" isn't it?


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> I can’t send you a pm. I wanted to tell you Most everything I say rotten is intended to piss unkotard off. If you see me talking to him take what I say with a spoonful of salt.



Okay, but you asked ME why nobody has respect for teachers. You don't have to have respect for us. But don't tell me I don't work hard. I'm "on" all day long. No downtime at all.


----------



## sealybobo

gulfman said:


> Teachers are prima donnas.They have never had real jobs.They are too pampered.Overpaid,too many paid holidays.But wait,they grade papers at night(Oh the humanity).They must be exhausted the next morning.


Kind of agree. Sweetsue92 said I wouldn’t last one day. And she’s probably right. But she wouldn’t last one month at my job either. She wouldn’t want to do what it takes to find a new customer. Even my superiors say they wouldn’t want to do what I do and thank god they have me. If not the business might fail. Lot of pressure. Bla bla bla.

But I only get 3 weeks off. It was 2 for 5 years. Imagine only having 10 days of vacation time.

Yea I wouldn’t want to teach 150 kids a day for 8 months but if I got 4 months off and a pension when I retire and I make $80k give or take $10k? Shit.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> What I just posted to sealy. I teach 150 elementary students in a single day. Six classes a day: 5th grade, Kind, 4th grade. Lunch. 3rd grade, 1st grade, 4th grade. That is ONE DAY. Get up the next day, do it all over again. Right, that sure is "pampered" isn't it?


It’s a job. Do you think our jobs are easy? And we don’t have a Union or job security or pensions coming. Or summers off.


----------



## sealybobo

gulfman said:


> Teachers are prima donnas.They have never had real jobs.They are too pampered.Overpaid,too many paid holidays.But wait,they grade papers at night(Oh the humanity).They must be exhausted the next morning.


Are you a conservative or liberal?


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Yea. I wouldn’t last one minute in the ring with you or one minute in your classroom.


That is correct.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> It’s a job. Do you think our jobs are easy? And we don’t have a Union or job security or pensions coming. Or summers off.



Many jobs are hard. You can have an idea how impossible teaching has become by how few college students are going into it and how many people leave the profession within 5 years. Put another way. If it was such a great deal people would flock to it. They are not. In fact, we can't get people to even sub anymore. Schools in our own state closing for this very reason. I had to substitute in a kindergarten room last week because no subs. 

Again. Free market. If it's so great, there would be people. I LOVE teaching. But it's not so great anymore, for many reasons.


----------



## Turtlesoup

rightwinger said:


> It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for
> 
> These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth


In case of fact---regardless of pay, government paid teachers fail do as well as homeschooling parents or charter school teachers, but yet they whine and whine and mo money mo money for working their part time job with benefits.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> I can’t send you a pm. I wanted to tell you Most everything I say rotten is intended to piss unkotard off. If you see me talking to him take what I say with a spoonful of salt.


Take your troll act to the FZ, troll.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Okay, but you asked ME why nobody has respect for teachers. You don't have to have respect for us. But don't tell me I don't work hard. I'm "on" all day long. No downtime at all.


Makes the day go by fast no?

My sister in law bought up years so she can retire early and get her pension. She was burned out. But now that she reached her pension, she’s not gonna go. Where will she go and make as much? What will she do? She has two kids nearing college. So she’s probably going to continue teaching. It’s what she knows. No one else will pay her $80,000. And if she retires the pension is what, 60% of that?

Plus when you have that pension in your pocket and don’t HAVE to work it’s not as bad as when you NEED that paycheck.

How many years you have left?


----------



## sealybobo

Turtlesoup said:


> In case of fact---regardless of pay, government paid teachers fail do as well as homeschooling parents or charter school teachers, but yet they whine and whine and mo money mo money for working their part time job with benefits.


Yea but in defense of teachers, isn’t how much you learn up to you and your parents? The average homeschooler or average public school student isn’t saying much. Do homeschoolers do as well as the 3.0 plus students in public school? Bet they don’t


----------



## Turtlesoup

SweetSue92 said:


> Okay, but you asked ME why nobody has respect for teachers. You don't have to have respect for us. But don't tell me I don't work hard. I'm "on" all day long. No downtime at all.


Your day is what around 8:30-3:30 with lunch in there...And what do you "teach" all 6 grades exactly?  Music, Gym, Recess?


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> Take your troll act to the FZ, troll.


Let’s see if you can discuss the topic not me. Or say anything with substance


----------



## sealybobo

Turtlesoup said:


> Your day is what around 8:30-3:30 with lunch in there...And what do you "teach" all 6 grades exactly?  Music, Gym, Recess?


It would suck to have to take 150 papers home to read and grade.


----------



## gulfman

Turtlesoup said:


> Your day is what around 8:30-3:30 with lunch in there...And what do you "teach" all 6 grades exactly?  Music, Gym, Recess?


And do you play kickball with the kids at recess?


----------



## gulfman

sealybobo said:


> It would suck to have to take 150 papers home to read and grade.


That's hogwash.When I was in grade school the teacher had us grade the papers


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Okay, but you asked ME why nobody has respect for teachers. You don't have to have respect for us. But don't tell me I don't work hard. I'm "on" all day long. No downtime at all.


And we do respect you. But we also think in some ways, you got a good gig. We don’t appreciate all the things you have to do that suck like reading all those papers.

If I was a teacher I’d ask for short and sweet papers. I don’t understand teachers who insisted on long 10 page papers. Can you explain that to me?


----------



## sealybobo

gulfman said:


> That's hogwash.When I was in grade school the teacher had us grade the papers


Smart teacher. But who knows if you got it right? If you made mistakes how can you judge someone else?


----------



## Turtlesoup

sealybobo said:


> Yea but in defense of teachers, isn’t how much you learn up to you and your parents? The average homeschooler or average public school student isn’t saying much. Do homeschoolers do as well as the 3.0 plus students in public school? Bet they don’t


Homeschool students on average easily outshine public school students-----charter and even the religious schools easily outdo the public school students on study after study after study for decades.   But yes, good Parents teach their kids whether they are homeschooled or in public school.   If you aint got a parent teaching their kid, public school ain't going to do it...ergo public school serves as little more than babysitters who indoctrinate for the most part.  Maybe we should get rid of the teachers and their unions, hire cheaper daycare providers and send a list and worksheets of what each student should learn to the home...holding the parent responsible for teaching their own kid.  

This includes ridding ourselves of those stupid zoom classes online where the teacher tries to justify her/his/its job rambling online which doesn't teach kids.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Let’s see if you can discuss the topic not me. Or say anything with substance


You just admitted to coming to this thread for no other reason than to troll, idiot.


----------



## Unkotare

gulfman said:


> ...They have never had real jobs......


That's a stupid thing to say.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> ...
> 
> If I was a teacher I’d ask for short and sweet papers. I don’t understand teachers who insisted on long 10 page papers. Can you explain that to me?


The fact that you're a lazy pothead is just one reason why you couldn't do the job.


----------



## Cellblock2429

DGS49 said:


> Any generalization about teacher compensation is bound to be incorrect.  Teacher compensation is all over the lot, even within the same geographical area.
> 
> All of the arguments have been repeated ad infinitum.  Teaching is not a full-time job.  A typical worker works approximately 2000 hours per year, teachers - especially in the last half of their careers - work a little more than half that.  They used to say that teachers had to spend their summers preparing for the following year and/or taking required classes, but this doesn't apply after the first couple years.  The old truism is that there are only three reasons to teach: June, July, and August.
> 
> The advent of collective bargaining was the worst development in the history of American public education.  The teachers now have advocates who have a vested interest in preventing any meaningful performance assessments of teachers, and preventing their termination for any reason short of copulating with students.
> 
> The teachers' unions have done more political harm than most people can imagine.  The Political Left cowers at the feet of the union bosses, and even last year, when the teachers' unions refused to allow normal teaching despite a mountain of evidence proving that the Covid dangers were almost entirely imaginary, the political Left refused to rein them in.
> 
> Disgusting.


/----/Normally I agree with you on most topics, but you are way off base on how many hours teachers work. I had three teachers in my family. They get in at 7:30 am for meetings and prep work, stay late to grade papers, and meet with parents. There were times my late wife wouldn't get home until 7:00 pm. That's almost a 12 hour day. She also tutored kids on the weekend and in the summer reading programs. She was on the job for 35 years at a Catholic school at half the pay of public school teachers.


----------



## gulfman

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/Normally I agree with you on most topics, but you are way off base on how many hours teachers work. I had three teachers in my family. They get in at 7:30 am for meetings and prep work, stay late to grade papers, and meet with parents. There were times my late wife wouldn't get home until 7:00 pm. That's almost a 12 hour day. She also tutored kids on the weekend and in the summer reading programs. She was on the job for 35 years at a Catholic school at half the pay of public school teachers.


I thought the Nuns taught at Catholic schools.


----------



## gulfman

If I ever get to the point where I can't do my job I will become a teacher instead.


----------



## Blues Man

Personally I think teachers get paid a fair salary.

60K a year average annual salary all kinds of time off.  It's a pretty good gig if you ask me


----------



## Unkotare

gulfman said:


> If I ever get to the point where I can't do my job I will become a teacher instead.


You couldn’t hack it.


----------



## SweetSue92

Turtlesoup said:


> Your day is what around 8:30-3:30 with lunch in there...And what do you "teach" all 6 grades exactly?  Music, Gym, Recess?



Yes. I teach recess.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> And we do respect you. But we also think in some ways, you got a good gig. We don’t appreciate all the things you have to do that suck like reading all those papers.
> 
> If I was a teacher I’d ask for short and sweet papers. I don’t understand teachers who insisted on long 10 page papers. Can you explain that to me?



No. I teach recess.


----------



## SweetSue92

Turtlesoup said:


> Homeschool students on average easily outshine public school students-----charter and even the religious schools easily outdo the public school students on study after study after study for decades.   But yes, good Parents teach their kids whether they are homeschooled or in public school.   If you aint got a parent teaching their kid, public school ain't going to do it...ergo public school serves as little more than babysitters who indoctrinate for the most part.  Maybe we should get rid of the teachers and their unions, hire cheaper daycare providers and send a list and worksheets of what each student should learn to the home...holding the parent responsible for teaching their own kid.
> 
> This includes ridding ourselves of those stupid zoom classes online where the teacher tries to justify her/his/its job rambling online which doesn't teach kids.



It will be great when we get those vouchers and all the great unwashed public school kids are in the private schools. 

We'll see how great they are then. You have no idea, that's obvious.


----------



## Winco

Turtlesoup said:


> In case of fact---regardless of pay, government paid teachers fail do as well as homeschooling parents


How many homeschool student have you personally had enter your classroom after the parent is completely overwhelmed?

I suspect NONE, you don't see actual children enter public school after poor homeschooling from failed parents.  Granted, some homeschool parents are great, but most aren't.


Turtlesoup said:


> Homeschool students on average easily outshine public school students


Where is your data?
I've seen them enter public school, it's usually not pretty.
They are usually well behind grade level, especially in math.


gulfman said:


> If I ever get to the point where I can't do my job I will become a teacher instead.


LLLOOOLOL, what HS subject would you teach?
Better yet, what HS subject COULD you teach?
I suspect none, you couldn't even do PE.


----------



## Cellblock2429

gulfman said:


> I thought the Nuns taught at Catholic schools.


/——-/ Due to so few women joining the Convent, Catholic schools began hiring lay teachers back in the 1960s. At my wife’s school, there were 10 teachers with only one being a nun.


----------



## bodecea

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——/ I was married to a Catholic School teacher for 37 years and 9 months. You speak the truth.
> 
> In addition teachers dig into their pockets to pay for school supplies for their students that the bloated school budgets won’t supply.


They need to stop doing that.......and see what happens.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

gulfman said:


> Teachers are prima donnas.They have never had real jobs.They are too pampered.Overpaid,too many paid holidays.But wait,they grade papers at night(Oh the humanity).They must be exhausted the next morning.


I was an electronics technician in the Navy for a little over a year.  Graduated from college and spent 10 years as a commissioned officer, one year as an insurance salesman for AUL, two years as benefits enrollment rep for AT&T, and then 21 years as a teacher,  No real jobs, huh?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

sealybobo said:


> Smart teacher. But who knows if you got it right? If you made mistakes how can you judge someone else?


Students are not allowed to grade each others papers because it violates their privacy.  No student is ever allowed to see the grades of any other student.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

bodecea said:


> They need to stop doing that.......and see what happens.


I will tell you what happens. Nothing!


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> You just admitted to coming to this thread for no other reason than to troll, idiot.


And yet still ive said more about the subject than you have.


----------



## sealybobo

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> I was an electronics technician in the Navy for a little over a year.  Graduated from college and spent 10 years as a commissioned officer, one year as an insurance salesman for AUL, two years as benefits enrollment rep for AT&T, and then 21 years as a teacher,  No real jobs, huh?


You don’t have a teaching degree. Does unkotare agree anyone can be a teacher? I have a degree and just as much experience as you. Can I teach?


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> The fact that you're a lazy pothead is just one reason why you couldn't do the job.


Pot would only help me cope with what you have to do


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> You just admitted to coming to this thread for no other reason than to troll, idiot.


Turtlesoup is right. Better to homeschool than send them to you

The home-educated typically score 15 to 30 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests. ... 78% of peer-reviewed studies on academic achievement show *homeschool students perform statistically significantly better than those in institutional schools*


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Many jobs are hard. You can have an idea how impossible teaching has become by how few college students are going into it and how many people leave the profession within 5 years. Put another way. If it was such a great deal people would flock to it. They are not. In fact, we can't get people to even sub anymore. Schools in our own state closing for this very reason. I had to substitute in a kindergarten room last week because no subs.
> 
> Again. Free market. If it's so great, there would be people. I LOVE teaching. But it's not so great anymore, for many reasons.


It was great when teachers got pensions. Even then it was tough but worth it. I hear those don’t exist for new teachers. And they no longer get paid like older teachers. If you got your masters the pay jumped to something like $80,000. That’s a good living especially when they know a pensions coming after 20 years.

If those things don’t exist anymore, you might want to consider putting them back.

But republicans and corporations have been squeezing us private workers like this for decades. A lot of perks got taken away. Now republicans have won. If you only work 8 months, only pay you for 8. And no pensions. Those don’t exist anymore. Sorry. 401k like the rest of us. And no collective bargaining for a raise. It’s up to each of you to try to get a raise. Good luck


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Turtlesoup said:


> Homeschool students on average easily outshine public school students-----charter and even the religious schools easily outdo the public school students on study after study after study for decades.   But yes, good Parents teach their kids whether they are homeschooled or in public school.   If you aint got a parent teaching their kid, public school ain't going to do it...ergo public school serves as little more than babysitters who indoctrinate for the most part.  Maybe we should get rid of the teachers and their unions, hire cheaper daycare providers and send a list and worksheets of what each student should learn to the home...holding the parent responsible for teaching their own kid.
> 
> This includes ridding ourselves of those stupid zoom classes online where the teacher tries to justify her/his/its job rambling online which doesn't teach kids.



You, sir, are an idiot when it comes to education.

Your first statement is a bald-faced lie that is easy shown to be false.  Every "study" that you public education bashers has ever provided on this forum regarding home schooling has been proven to violate the rules of statistics.

I taught for 21 years and never once "indoctrinated" a student.  My children all attended public schools and not one of them was ever "indoctrinated".  My three grandchildren all attend public schools, and not one of them has been in "indoctrinated".  Those schools were in Kentucky, Florida, Washington, Texas, and Tennessee.  That is enough evidence that teachers do not indoctrinate in all schools, but just a few in liberal dominated cities and states.

Worksheets may have been the way you were taught, but how do you use a worksheet to teach any subject?  They are for practice using the knowledge they have attained.

Those "zoom" classes were not the teacher's choice as it is much harder to teach on-line than in person.

Why don't you get an education for yourself before bashing your betters?


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> It was great when teachers got pensions. Even then it was tough but worth it. I hear those don’t exist for new teachers. And they no longer get paid like older teachers. If you got your masters the pay jumped to something like $80,000. That’s a good living especially when they know a pensions coming after 20 years.
> 
> If those things don’t exist anymore, you might want to consider putting them back.
> 
> But republicans and corporations have been squeezing us private workers like this for decades. A lot of perks got taken away. Now republicans have won. If you only work 8 months, only pay you for 8. And no pensions. Those don’t exist anymore. Sorry. 401k like the rest of us. And no collective bargaining for a raise. It’s up to each of you to try to get a raise. Good luck



Or idk maybe you're just not trying hard enough. One of my kids is a Senior in college. She's already accepted a job offer in the private sector making easily what a 15+ year teacher makes in Michigan. She has excellent time off, benefits, perks, etc.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Kind of agree. Sweetsue92 said I wouldn’t last one day. And she’s probably right. But she wouldn’t last one month at my job either. She wouldn’t want to do what it takes to find a new customer. Even my superiors say they wouldn’t want to do what I do and thank god they have me. If not the business might fail. Lot of pressure. Bla bla bla.
> 
> But I only get 3 weeks off. It was 2 for 5 years. Imagine only having 10 days of vacation time.
> 
> Yea I wouldn’t want to teach 150 kids a day for 8 months but if I got 4 months off and a pension when I retire and I make $80k give or take $10k? Shit.



It's not "8 months". We start around August 20th. We are done mid-June. We get two weeks at Christmas and a week in April. We are contracted and paid for 185 days. We are not paid a "year round" salary.

I would not want to do what you do, but I didn't make the claim that anyone could do it, it's easy. YOU did, about my job. Yeah? Really? I don't think so. I LOVE teaching, but I realize it's difficult and not for everyone.


----------



## SweetSue92

Turtlesoup said:


> In case of fact---regardless of pay, government paid teachers fail do as well as homeschooling parents or charter school teachers, but yet they whine and whine and mo money mo money for working their part time job with benefits.



Have you ever logically reasoned through the claims you are making? OF COURSE homeschooled children do well by and large. They have parents so invested that one can work while the other stays home to school them. HELLO???

Charter schools, same effect. Parents take the time and effort to research schools they want their children to attend. Great. Parental involvement is key.

So, brain trust, what do you propose to do with all the children whose parents are negligent, abusive, strung out on drugs, attempted to sell their kids into trafficking, etc. You gonna force those kids into other people's homeschools? Or what? What you got?


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> It's not "8 months". We start around August 20th. We are done mid-June. We get two weeks at Christmas and a week in April. We are contracted and paid for 185 days. We are not paid a "year round" salary.
> 
> I would not want to do what you do, but I didn't make the claim that anyone could do it, it's easy. YOU did, about my job. Yeah? Really? I don't think so. I LOVE teaching, but I realize it's difficult and not for everyone.


Every job seems easy to me. Unless its finance, accounting, computers, math or engineering.

Like Human Resources. How hard can that be?

Or a preacher. Seems like an easy gig.


----------



## Likkmee

I'm an old man and would gladly teach nay sort of shop class for $0.
Problem with me is I "might" say. "STFU and get out of my shop asshole".
No longer permitted
My old WW2-Korea  lie shop teachers would slam you against the wall , if needed.
Seldom.Good dudes.I stayed friends with a few for 50 years


----------



## DGS49

Teaching is sooooooooooooo tough.

And yet, there is basically no attrition.

Case closed.


----------



## Cellblock2429

bodecea said:


> They need to stop doing that.......and see what happens.


/——/ The kids suffer


----------



## Cellblock2429

DGS49 said:


> Teaching is sooooooooooooo tough.
> 
> And yet, there is basically no attrition.
> 
> Case closed.


/——/ WTF does that mean?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

DGS49 said:


> Teaching is sooooooooooooo tough.
> 
> And yet, there is basically no attrition.
> 
> Case closed.


No attrition?  What are you going to do for your next stupid statement?


----------



## SweetSue92

DGS49 said:


> Teaching is sooooooooooooo tough.
> 
> And yet, there is basically no attrition.
> 
> Case closed.



You would last less  time in my job than sealybobo. 

And that is saying something.


----------



## SweetSue92

sealybobo said:


> Every job seems easy to me. Unless its finance, accounting, computers, math or engineering.
> 
> Like Human Resources. How hard can that be?
> 
> Or a preacher. Seems like an easy gig.



Well, you have a big mouth but not such a big imagination to be honest. All I had to do was explain my  job to you and you were like, oh yeah. You don't think Human Resources is hard? I don't even do that job but if I explained it to you, you would fold there too. You wanna figure out Obamacare? Really?

You need to think more and type less to be honest.


----------



## sealybobo

SweetSue92 said:


> Well, you have a big mouth but not such a big imagination to be honest. All I had to do was explain my  job to you and you were like, oh yeah. You don't think Human Resources is hard? I don't even do that job but if I explained it to you, you would fold there too. You wanna figure out Obamacare? Really?
> 
> You need to think more and type less to be honest.


I’m not saying I’m right. I’m just saying I look at what I see hr people do and it looks easy. Like, how do you fail?

A salesperson can not hit his numbers.

A computer person can fail at fixing the problem.

How does a teacher fail? I never saw a teacher get fired half way through the year because they were failing. Or because not enough students were learning. Never


----------



## Cellblock2429

sealybobo said:


> I’m not saying I’m right. I’m just saying I look at what I see hr people do and it looks easy. Like, how do you fail?
> 
> A salesperson can not hit his numbers.
> 
> A computer person can fail at fixing the problem.
> 
> How does a teacher fail? I never saw a teacher get fired half way through the year because they were failing. Or because not enough students were learning. Never


/----/ I think you're just being contrary to get attention.   I know teachers who were fired for a variety of reasons including:
Here are some of the attitudes to avoid, as well as things you should refrain from doing.

Reason #1: Incompetent. Teachers must pass a set of qualifications before being assigned a specific class or subject. Education is one of the most dynamic professions since, as much as possible, inculcation of recent items must be encouraged in class. Dynamism must also be exercised by mentors. When we talk about incompetent teachers, we are not referring to how many students this particular teacher failed. The ratio of passing and failing is not solely dependent on the teacher. But if this teacher is not improving her lesson plans, not attending seminars for knowledge improvement and remaining still in his current comprehension and lectures, these are big reasons enough to fire him.

Reason #2: Disrespectful. Teachers must exude compassion towards their students regardless of their level of intelligence. It is a fact that students must exercise respect inside the school and most especially in the classroom. Mentors must also follow this rule. Even if they are way above their students in terms of skills, they must also value them. It is a bad example to humiliate one of your subordinates because he can't read or write well. It is even harsh if you tend to control your students in the way you want them to work. I know you are following a strict rule to not only impart lessons but to discipline them as well. But if you are going over the line, with students complaining about your attitude, it may be time to stop pursuing this career.

Reason #3: Lack of skills. Teachers must have more than just good teaching skills. There are in fact many attitudes a teacher should tap in order to become effective. If you happen to assess that you are only good at imparting lessons but lack interpersonal skills, better be aware that this can be used against you. An educator must know how to extend his lessons beyond the books or journals. He must also exercise organization and management. Aside from teaching, mentors are also leaders and class organizers. Somehow, in one way or another, this must be found within you. Such lack of skills only paves the way for more trouble and problems on your end, leaving your students clueless for the whole year.



Article Source: Top Reasons Why Teachers Get Fired


----------



## sealybobo

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/ I think you're just being contrary to get attention.   I know teachers who were fired for a variety of reasons including:
> Here are some of the attitudes to avoid, as well as things you should refrain from doing.
> 
> Reason #1: Incompetent. Teachers must pass a set of qualifications before being assigned a specific class or subject. Education is one of the most dynamic professions since, as much as possible, inculcation of recent items must be encouraged in class. Dynamism must also be exercised by mentors. When we talk about incompetent teachers, we are not referring to how many students this particular teacher failed. The ratio of passing and failing is not solely dependent on the teacher. But if this teacher is not improving her lesson plans, not attending seminars for knowledge improvement and remaining still in his current comprehension and lectures, these are big reasons enough to fire him.
> 
> Reason #2: Disrespectful. Teachers must exude compassion towards their students regardless of their level of intelligence. It is a fact that students must exercise respect inside the school and most especially in the classroom. Mentors must also follow this rule. Even if they are way above their students in terms of skills, they must also value them. It is a bad example to humiliate one of your subordinates because he can't read or write well. It is even harsh if you tend to control your students in the way you want them to work. I know you are following a strict rule to not only impart lessons but to discipline them as well. But if you are going over the line, with students complaining about your attitude, it may be time to stop pursuing this career.
> 
> Reason #3: Lack of skills. Teachers must have more than just good teaching skills. There are in fact many attitudes a teacher should tap in order to become effective. If you happen to assess that you are only good at imparting lessons but lack interpersonal skills, better be aware that this can be used against you. An educator must know how to extend his lessons beyond the books or journals. He must also exercise organization and management. Aside from teaching, mentors are also leaders and class organizers. Somehow, in one way or another, this must be found within you. Such lack of skills only paves the way for more trouble and problems on your end, leaving your students clueless for the whole year.
> 
> 
> 
> Article Source: Top Reasons Why Teachers Get Fired


Well we all know the story of the bad burned out teacher who couldn’t be fired because they had tenure.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Well we all know the story of the bad burned out teacher who couldn’t be fired because they had tenure.


We all know the story of the utterly shameless sales monkey douche in a bad suit playing with his died mustache, trying to scam some old lady into buying a lemon.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> We all know the story of the utterly shameless sales monkey douche in a bad suit playing with his died mustache, trying to scam some old lady into buying a lemon.


I sell aftermarket to corporations. I save them anywhere from 20-35%. And I make my company at least $500,000 a year. The owner in Germany loves me. They say we might have closed if not for my aftermarket sales during corona.

We learned what a waste brick and mortar schools are during the pandemic. And there is a shortage of young people who want your shitty shitty job. Lol


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> I sell aftermarket to corporations. ...


We all know the story of the utterly shameless sales monkey douche in a bad suit playing with his died mustache, trying to scam some old lady...


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> We all know the story of the utterly shameless sales monkey douche in a bad suit playing with his died mustache, trying to scam some old lady...


You said that already post 540.  You gonna say it again on post 544?


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> We all know the story of the utterly shameless sales monkey douche in a bad suit playing with his died mustache, trying to scam some old lady...


No one wants your job

The number of Americans training to become teachers has dropped by a third since 2010, and it's creating a critical educator shortage that will affect every state​


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> No one wants your job
> 
> The number of Americans training to become teachers has dropped by a third since 2010, and it's creating a critical educator shortage that will affect every state​


A job you _couldn't_ do.


----------



## Cellblock2429

sealybobo said:


> Well we all know the story of the bad burned out teacher who couldn’t be fired because they had tenure.


/——/ Yes, but always Union teachers.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> A job you _couldn't_ do.


I job I wouldn't do.  Not that I couldn't.  Although I would be afraid of those little colored boys.  I definitely wouldn't do your job.  I'm no Jim Belushi in the Principal.


----------



## Blues Man

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> I doubt they could make it until lunchtime without curling into a fetal position and crying themselves to sleep.


People always say shit like this about their own jobs.

I bet you couldn't have kept up with me when I was working 16 or 18 hours a day building and rehabbing houses to flip


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> I job I wouldn't do.  ...


_Couldn't_ do.


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> ... Although I would be afraid of those little colored boys.  I definitely wouldn't do your job.  I'm no Jim Belushi in the Principal.


Racist coward.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> _Couldn't_ do.


There's nothing special about a teaching job.  Anyone who wants to do it can learn how to do it.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> There's nothing special about a teaching job.  Anyone who wants to do it can learn how to do it.


Give it a try before shooting your mouth off.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> Give it a try before shooting your mouth off.


I have no desire to be a teacher.

It's just a job like any other than can be learned by anyone who wants to do it.

everyone likes to think the job they have is somehow the hardest job in the world and that they are somehow special because they do that job.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> I have no desire to be a teacher.
> ....


Then don't shoot your mouth off about something of which you have no experience.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> Then don't shoot your mouth off about something of which you have no experience.


Everyone knows what teachers do. it ain't rocket science.

And let's see it's 11:25 on a school day.  So tell me how hard is your job that you're posting shit here?


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> Everyone knows what teachers do. .....


You don't.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> You don't.


Sure we do we've all had teachers

So tell me if your job is so hard why are you posting here during a school day when you're supposed to be doing all this work that no one else can ?


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> Sure we do we've all had teachers
> 
> ....


I'm sure you've traveled by air before. Do you know how to fly a plane? Do you know everything a pilot does? Do you consider yourself as having experience as a pilot? 

I'm sure you've had a cavity or two in your life. Does that mean you know everything a dentist does?


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> I'm sure you've traveled by air before. Do you know how to fly a plane? Do you know everything a pilot does? Do you consider yourself as having experience as a pilot?
> 
> I'm sure you've had a cavity or two in your life. Does that mean you know everything a dentist does?


I actually have my private pilot's license so I do know how to fly a plane.

I learned how to fly because I wanted to.  You're a teacher and you think people can't learn to do things?

You learned to be a teacher just like every other teacher that does not make your job special or particularly difficult.

And if your job was really as tough as you say you couldn't be posting here during a school day


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> I actually have my private pilot's license so I do know how to fly a plane.
> 
> I learned how to fly because I wanted to.  ....


Have you ever had a cavity? Are you a dentist?


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> Have you ever had a cavity? Are you a dentist?


When you answer my questions I'll answer yours.


----------



## flewism

It is a known fact that today teachers in the United States are not as valued as teachers in Asia and Europe and their pay reflects that fact. 
That is one reason that the teaching profession does not attract a higher caliber of individuals to its ranks especially in todays environment. 
Teachers K-12 in the United States have been under paid and abused by society for the last 60 years and the quality of our graduate reflects that.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> When you answer my questions I'll answer yours.


You've never had a cavity?


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> You've never had a cavity?


If your job is so tough how do you have the time to post here during a school day?


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> When you answer my questions I'll answer yours.


Is your dental office accepting new patients?


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> Is your dental office accepting new patients?


Why aren't you so busy at your oh so difficult job that you have time to post here during a school day?

When I was working I wouldn't have had that kind of time.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> ...
> 
> When I was working ...


As a dentist?


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> As a dentist?


Well we all know you're NOT working right now.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> Well we all know you're NOT...


I'm not a dentist? That's true.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> I'm not a dentist? That's true.


You're not teaching either. You're posting drivel on a message board


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> _Couldn't_ do.


Why what's so hard about it?  Go in the book, read it, and pick out test questions.

What do you do above and beyond to prepare these kids for college and/or job interviews?  You do dick.  Everyone here believes teachers are doing a shitty job.  We even proved home schooled kids do better.  Pathetic.

I can't?  Can you?  Doesn't seem like it White Shadow.


----------



## sealybobo

Unkotare said:


> I'm not a dentist? That's true.


You're not working right now.  Lunch break?  Recess?  Eat your PB&J and get back to work clown.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> ...You're posting drivel on a message board


Do you do root canals?


----------



## Unkotare

sealybobo said:


> Why what's so hard about it?  Go in the book, read it, and pick out test questions.
> ...



Thanks for proving you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> Do you do root canals?


You claim to be a teacher but you're obviously not teaching.  I never claimed to be a dentist.  I simply claimed I could learn to be a dentist if I I had the desire.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> You claim to be a teacher ...


Because I am.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> ...  I simply claimed I could learn to be a dentist if I I had the desire.


I don't believe you could.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> Because I am.


But you're not teaching anyone right now because you're posting on the internet.

If your job was a hard as you claim you wouldn't be posting your drivel during working hours.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> I don't believe you could.


I don't believe you're a teacher.


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> I don't believe you're a teacher.


You don't have to. The opinion of some wannabe dentist means less than nothing.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> You don't have to. The opinion of some wannabe dentist means less than nothing.


I don't want to be a dentist and never said I did.

That lack of reading comprehension skills tell me you're no teacher.

You're a study hall proctor at best


----------



## Unkotare

Blues Man said:


> I don't want to be a dentist and never said I did.
> ...


Good, because you couldn't.


----------



## DGS49

Teaching is not a profession.  Never has been, never will.  A PROFESSION requires an extensive body of knowledge, not known to the general public, without which one cannot function.

Think about it:  Doctor, Lawyer, Architect, Dentist...They all have a large body of knowledge that is unknown to the general public, and they must demonstrate a mastery of that body of knowledge in order to be certified to practice in the PROFESSION.

There is no existing or even possible body of knowledge that is required to teach.  They are not even required to demonstrate a mastery of their SUBJECTS [through comprehensive testing].

Ain't no profession.  Professionals don't join a labor union.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> Teaching is not a profession.  Never has been, never will.  A PROFESSION requires an extensive body of knowledge, not known to the general public, without which one cannot function.
> 
> Think about it:  Doctor, Lawyer, Architect, Dentist...They all have a large body of knowledge that is unknown to the general public, and they must demonstrate a mastery of that body of knowledge in order to be certified to practice in the PROFESSION.
> 
> There is no existing or even possible body of knowledge that is required to teach.  They are not even required to demonstrate a mastery of their SUBJECTS [through comprehensive testing].
> 
> Ain't no profession.  Professionals don't join a labor union.


That has got to be the most ignorant post of the day.


----------



## gulfman

Doctors practice medicine
Lawyers practice law
Teachers practice baby sitting


----------



## Unkotare

gulfman said:


> Doctors practice medicine
> Lawyers practice law
> Teachers practice baby sitting


Teachers teach doctors to become doctors and lawyers to become lawyers.


----------



## gulfman

Unkotare said:


> Teachers teach doctors to become doctors and lawyers to become lawyers.


I knew a teacher and a lawyer who could never pass the bar.
Especially at happy hour.


----------



## hunarcy

gulfman said:


> Teachers are prima donnas.They have never had real jobs.They are too pampered.Overpaid,too many paid holidays.But wait,they grade papers at night(Oh the humanity).They must be exhausted the next morning.


Well, it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about...first, teachers are only paid for the days they work.  NO paid holidays, no paid summer off.  Teachers also have to be prepared to defend their students and themselves at any moment without causing injury to students, serve as a sounding board to their students and their students' parents while providing moral guidance as well as teaching the subject that they are assigned to teach.  Most teachers also have to work a second job to provide for their families, so your comment that they never had "real jobs" is just ridiculous.  

You are a moron.


----------



## hunarcy

gulfman said:


> That's hogwash.When I was in grade school the teacher had us grade the papers



Then you must be very old, as that went out in the 70's when the privacy rules were imposed.


----------



## hunarcy

gulfman said:


> If I ever get to the point where I can't do my job I will become a teacher instead.


You couldn't be the custodian, much less a teacher.


----------



## hunarcy

DGS49 said:


> Teaching is sooooooooooooo tough.
> 
> And yet, there is basically no attrition.
> 
> Case closed.


No attrition?  Every state is experiencing teacher shortages.  Honestly, if you were trying to make yourself seem ignorant, you have succeeded beyond any and all expectations.


----------



## SweetSue92

The collapse of the public school system is going to work out just as well for my fellow conservatives as the defund the police worked out for the Left. Conservatives imagine that all these public school students are going into happy little homeschools or maybe charter schools 

Uh huh

Well, bring it on then. Yep, yep the teachers suck. In three years or so, all you clowns be crying "Where'd the teachers go?!?!" Whatever. Let it burn.


----------



## SweetSue92

DGS49 said:


> Teaching is not a profession.  Never has been, never will.  A PROFESSION requires an extensive body of knowledge, not known to the general public, without which one cannot function.
> 
> Think about it:  Doctor, Lawyer, Architect, Dentist...They all have a large body of knowledge that is unknown to the general public, and they must demonstrate a mastery of that body of knowledge in order to be certified to practice in the PROFESSION.
> 
> There is no existing or even possible body of knowledge that is required to teach.  They are not even required to demonstrate a mastery of their SUBJECTS [through comprehensive testing].
> 
> Ain't no profession.  Professionals don't join a labor union.



Those "little bastards" you won't slow down for in bus zones? I can't wait til the public schools collapse and they're running around in gangs. I really, honestly hope it's in your neighborhood, and I'm around to here you whine about where did the schools and teachers go.

No one ever said my fellow conservatives were very prescient.


----------



## Blues Man

Unkotare said:


> Good, because you couldn't.


And you can't teach because you're posting here during work hours and your job is supposed to be sooooo difficult


----------



## gulfman

If these kids can read at the third grade level when they get out of high school the teachers feel like they done their job


----------



## SweetSue92

gulfman said:


> If these kids can read at the third grade level when they get out of high school the teachers feel like they done their job



See above. Three years, gangs and gangs and gangs of unschooled, unparented teens roaming the nation. 

Do not say "where are the schools?" We tried to tell you.

Oh well. Let it burn.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ......  A PROFESSION requires an extensive body of knowledge, not known to the general public, without which one cannot function.
> 
> .....


That's teaching.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ....Doctor, Lawyer, Architect, Dentist...They all have a large body of knowledge that is unknown to the general public, and they must demonstrate a mastery of that body of knowledge in order to be certified to practice in the PROFESSION.
> .....


Like teachers.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ...They are not even required to demonstrate a mastery of their SUBJECTS [through comprehensive testing].
> 
> ....


Of course we are.


----------



## DGS49

WHAT IS THE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE THAT TEACHERS MUST KNOW?????

It does not exist!

If anyone reading this is a teacher, let's have a few examples. A doctor must know how the heart functions.  A lawyer must know the elements of a tort.  Etc.

What is the body of knowledge that teachers must know?  The very idea is silly.

Can you even imagine a teacher being charged with "MALPRACTICE"?  It is a sick joke.  They engage in malpractice every day of the week, and we pay them for it!


----------



## Unkotare

https://www.oecd.org/education/ceri/Background_document_to_Symposium_ITEL-FINAL.pdf


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> WHAT IS THE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE THAT TEACHERS MUST KNOW?????
> 
> It does not exist!
> 
> If anyone reading this is a teacher, let's have a few examples. A doctor must know how the heart functions.  A lawyer must know the elements of a tort.  Etc.
> 
> What is the body of knowledge that teachers must know?  The very idea is silly.
> 
> Can you even imagine a teacher being charged with "MALPRACTICE"?  It is a sick joke.  They engage in malpractice every day of the week, and we pay them for it!


You are an ignorant buffoon.


----------



## DGS49

Is that supposed to be some sort of rebuttal? You claim to be a teacher.  If there is a body of esoteric knowledge that teachers must know in order to teach, then YOU MUST BE PRIVY TO IT.

Please describe.  Give us a hint.

Teachers are no more "professionals" than are car salesmen.  Everybody has their own method; there is no right and wrong.  Imagine the results if real professionals operated that way.

And in addition, why is it that student OUTCOMES have not improved over the past 50 years, while teacher compensation has more than doubled, in constant year dollars?  More money equals better teachers?

You gotta be fucking kidding.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ....
> 
> Please describe.  Give us a hint.
> ....


Pay attention, stupid.


			https://www.oecd.org/education/ceri/Background_document_to_Symposium_ITEL-FINAL.pdf


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ....  Everybody has their own method; there is no right and wrong. .....


Your complete ignorance of the topic doesn't slow down your uninformed comments at all, does it?


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> .....
> 
> And in addition, why is it that student OUTCOMES have not improved over the past 50 years.....


Why is it that people continue to get sick and die if doctors are professionals? In fact, the average lifespan of an American male has fallen. Better get your next prostate exam from a car salesman.


----------



## Unkotare

Funny how quickly this ignorant troll disappears when he is directly and completely proven wrong.


----------



## SweetSue92

DGS49 said:


> WHAT IS THE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE THAT TEACHERS MUST KNOW?????
> 
> It does not exist!
> 
> If anyone reading this is a teacher, let's have a few examples. A doctor must know how the heart functions.  A lawyer must know the elements of a tort.  Etc.
> 
> What is the body of knowledge that teachers must know?  The very idea is silly.
> 
> Can you even imagine a teacher being charged with "MALPRACTICE"?  It is a sick joke.  They engage in malpractice every day of the week, and we pay them for it!



Behold one page, just one, of my teacher evaluation rubric. 

Hey old man yells at cloud, just because you hated school doesn't mean teachers don't know anything about teaching.


----------



## DGS49

Yes, yes, yes.  "Pedagogical knowledge."  This is not something that a prospective teacher must master.  In fact, the theories on pedagogy change from generation to generation, so a teacher who was up to speed twenty years ago may be teaching in an entirely different manner than what is recommended today.

But it is not a fixed body of knowledge.  It is a compilation of theories that the author asserts are proven by research.  But so were yesterday's theories which are now discredited.  And so it goes.  Today's theories will be discredited in ten years.

And yet...and yet, where is the "BEEF"?  *Where are the data that verify that today's teaching methods are more successful - as measured by standardized tests? * Non-Existent.  It is all fluff and nonsense

One could produce exactly the same sort of self-serving balderdash on the topic of selling used cars.  Methods (or in Academic-Speak, "methodologies") change over time, but the results never do.

I guarantee that if you distilled the top recommendations from the linked article and quizzed 100 public school teachers on their knowledge of same, the result would be 98 examples of "deer in the headlights."

There is no finite body of esoteric knowledge that one must master in order to be a teacher.  All true Professions have such a finite body of knowledge, and all true professions administer a comprehensive test to candidates, and if you don't pass the test, you cannot practice law, medicine, dentistry, etc.  Doesn't apply to teaching because it is not a profession.

Which is not to say that "professionalism" should not be encouraged, but that's not the same thing.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> Yes, yes, yes.  "Pedagogical knowledge."  This is not something that a prospective teacher must master. ...


Yes, it is.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> .......In fact, the theories on pedagogy change from generation to generation, so a teacher who was up to speed twenty years ago may be teaching in an entirely different manner than what is recommended today.
> ......


That is why teachers are tested on this knowledge and required to update their skills and knowledge regularly, just like other PROFESSIONS.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ...... And so it goes.  Today's theories will be discredited in ten years.
> ....


In ten years there will be new knowledge, theories, and procedures in medicine as well. PROFESSION.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ......all true professions administer a comprehensive test to candidates, and if you don't pass the test, you cannot practice law, medicine, dentistry, etc.  .....


Include "teaching" on that list.


You might as well just admit you were completely wrong from the get-go, and that you have no idea what you're talking about. Go start another thread about how threatened you feel by athletes.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ..... Methods (or in Academic-Speak, "methodologies") change over time, but the results never do.
> .....


Medical procedures change over time, but the intended result is always the health and welfare of patients.


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> .....
> 
> I guarantee that if you.....


YOU can't guarantee shit, because YOU have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## SweetSue92

DGS49 said:


> Yes, yes, yes.  "Pedagogical knowledge."  This is not something that a prospective teacher must master.  In fact, the theories on pedagogy change from generation to generation, so a teacher who was up to speed twenty years ago may be teaching in an entirely different manner than what is recommended today.
> 
> But it is not a fixed body of knowledge.  It is a compilation of theories that the author asserts are proven by research.  But so were yesterday's theories which are now discredited.  And so it goes.  Today's theories will be discredited in ten years.
> 
> And yet...and yet, where is the "BEEF"?  *Where are the data that verify that today's teaching methods are more successful - as measured by standardized tests? * Non-Existent.  It is all fluff and nonsense
> 
> One could produce exactly the same sort of self-serving balderdash on the topic of selling used cars.  Methods (or in Academic-Speak, "methodologies") change over time, but the results never do.
> 
> I guarantee that if you distilled the top recommendations from the linked article and quizzed 100 public school teachers on their knowledge of same, the result would be 98 examples of "deer in the headlights."
> 
> There is no finite body of esoteric knowledge that one must master in order to be a teacher.  All true Professions have such a finite body of knowledge, and all true professions administer a comprehensive test to candidates, and if you don't pass the test, you cannot practice law, medicine, dentistry, etc.  Doesn't apply to teaching because it is not a profession.
> 
> Which is not to say that "professionalism" should not be encouraged, but that's not the same thing.



This Old Man Yelling At Cloud doesn't even know about tests like The Praxis.

Keep going. Wear yourself out.


----------



## DGS49

I truly hope that the entity that titles itself "Unkotare" is not a teacher.  Its tendency to simply deny what it doesn't like and issue ad hominem "rebuttals" is appalling.  I pity the student who has to sit in its classroom.

But again I ask:  *Where is the data that show that enhanced pedagogy has improved educational OUTCOMES over the past fifty years?*

[sound of crickets chirping]


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> .....
> 
> But again I ask:  *Where is the data that show that enhanced pedagogy has improved educational OUTCOMES over the past fifty years?*
> ....


Where is the data that show people don't get sick or die anymore because medicine is a PROFESSION?


----------



## Unkotare

DGS49 said:


> ...   Its tendency to simply deny what it doesn't like ...


You meant to say "tendency to provide specific data directly refuting ignorant nonsense..."


----------

