# On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs



## Gunny

per request:



> By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
> 
> Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997
> 
> One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
> 
> "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
> 
> Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
> 
> I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
> 
> "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
> 
> "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."
> 
> If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed
> 
> Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.
> 
> But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
> 
> The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
> 
> Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."
> 
> Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
> 
> The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
> 
> Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
> 
> Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.
> 
> Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
> 
> There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.
> 
> Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.
> 
> Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.
> 
> There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke
> 
> Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.
> 
> If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.
> 
> For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.
> 
> I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"
> 
> Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.
> 
> Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"
> 
> It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.
> 
> Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.
> 
> Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."
> 
> Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.
> 
> And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
> 
> "Baa."
> 
> This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.





On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman


----------



## HUGGY

Gunny said:


> per request:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
> 
> Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997
> 
> One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
> 
> "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
> 
> Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
> 
> I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
> 
> "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
> 
> "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."
> 
> If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed
> 
> Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.
> 
> But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
> 
> The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
> 
> Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."
> 
> Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
> 
> The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
> 
> Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
> 
> Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.
> 
> Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
> 
> There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.
> 
> Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.
> 
> Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.
> 
> There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke
> 
> Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.
> 
> If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.
> 
> For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.
> 
> I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"
> 
> Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.
> 
> Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"
> 
> It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.
> 
> Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.
> 
> Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."
> 
> Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.
> 
> And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
> 
> "Baa."
> 
> This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
Click to expand...


Who's got time to read your version of "War an Peas"?  I'll just take your word fo it.

Gunny's right...any body dissagree?  Didn't think so!


----------



## Si modo

I never bore of that excerpt from Grossman.


----------



## Phoenix

Thank you.


----------



## Luissa

I agree with this guy 100% but I also think a sheep can become a sheep dog in a matter of seconds.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

I've met LTC Grossman.  One intense individual.

His book "On Killing" should be required reading for everyone in the military and/or law enforcement.


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> I agree with this guy 100% but I also think a sheep can become a sheep dog in a matter of seconds.



You see that f-18 zoom over your head?  

By definition, the sheep cannot be the sheepdog.  The sheepdog protects the flock.  Always.  The sheep might try to protect itself and its own and get lucky, but will revert back to being a sheep the second the personal threat is over.


----------



## midcan5

Why does writing, sentiments like that remind me of the Nazi youth corps or the Maoist youth corps or the Japanese youth corps before their attempts to conquer the world because they were warriors and warriors are good and the others sheep. And why does it remind me of HS boys offering each other out, some hoping the other would step down and never offering to fight with someone whose reputation regardless of size was they would fight you no matter what. Or remind me of how immature braggadocio can be and how stupid and how often throughout history, so tragic. Words that like are often used by those who stir up trouble, listen to Bush Jr or Cheney, two draft dodgers, who had they served may have saved a great many tears.

"All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting."  George Orwell 


"We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen


----------



## AdlerianThinker

midcan5 said:


> Why does writing, sentiments like that remind me of the Nazi youth corps or the Maoist youth corps or the Japanese youth corps before their attempts to conquer the world because they were warriors and warriors are good and the others sheep. And why does it remind me of HS boys offering each out, some hoping the other would step down and never offering to fight with someone whose reputation regardless of size was they would fight you no matter what. Or remind me of how immature braggadocio can be and how stupid and how often throughout history, so tragic. Words that like are often used by those who stir up trouble, listen to Bush Jr or Cheney, two draft dodgers, who had they served may have saved a great many tears.
> 
> "All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.  George Orwell
> 
> 
> "We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen



Perhaps you will never understand the sheepdog, so you project.


----------



## Si modo

It is not a bad thing to be a sheep in this matter.  Grossman does not cast any values on the sheepdog and sheep as to which one is better morally.  I know I am a sheep.


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this guy 100% but I also think a sheep can become a sheep dog in a matter of seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see that f-18 zoom over your head?
> 
> By definition, the sheep cannot be the sheepdog.  The sheepdog protects the flock.  Always.  The sheep might try to protect itself and its own and get lucky, but will revert back to being a sheep the second the personal threat is over.
Click to expand...

and you missed by point entirely. But hey thanks for TRYING to point out that I might not get it.


----------



## midcan5

AdlerianThinker said:


> Perhaps you will never understand the sheepdog, so you project.



Having lived as long as I have from a low class world with lots of brothers, and having served the country, and having worked up the food chain, I think I know too well the sheepdogs. It is you who are still immature.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

midcan5 said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you will never understand the sheepdog, so you project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived as long as I have from a low class world with lots of brothers, and having served the country, and having worked up the food chain, I think I know too well the sheepdogs. It is you who are still immature.
Click to expand...


Says the fella painting others with a wide brush.  

What you have failed to do is address what I said.  You ARE projecting.

But, whatever floats your boat.


----------



## 2Parties

The military/warrior/government worship continues.  Do not question the military religion.


----------



## PatekPhilippe

2Parties said:


> The military/warrior/government worship continues.  Do not question the military religion.



That's right...now shut the fuck up.


----------



## blu

yea because what would we do without the military starting wars and murdering in our countries name just so we can get attacked on our soil and hated throughout the world. and who can forget the cops who routinely abuse their power and ruin lives of people just to satisfy their own inadequacies


----------



## PatekPhilippe

blu said:


> yea because what would we do without the military starting wars and murdering in our countries name just so we can get attacked on our soil and hated throughout the world. and who can forget the cops who routinely abuse their power and ruin lives of people just to satisfy their own inadequacies


----------



## Zoom-boing

I've always held sheepdogs in the highest regard.  Regardless of their breed I have always thought of them as the best and am grateful for their strength and courage and willingness to do the job.   Baaa.


----------



## Barb

AdlerianThinker said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you will never understand the sheepdog, so you project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived as long as I have from a low class world with lots of brothers, and having served the country, and having worked up the food chain, I think I know too well the sheepdogs. It is you who are still immature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Says the fella painting others with a wide brush.
> 
> What you have failed to do is address what I said.  You ARE projecting.
> 
> But, whatever floats your boat.
Click to expand...


 Oh KAY. So the OP quoting an article that reduces the vast variety of humankind to three types is NOT using a broad brush. Gotcha.


----------



## Barb

blu said:


> yea because what would we do without the military starting wars and murdering in our countries name just so we can get attacked on our soil and hated throughout the world. and who can forget the cops who routinely abuse their power and ruin lives of people just to satisfy their own inadequacies



 The military does not "start wars." It is our CIVILIAN government that does that.


----------



## Barb

Zoom-boing said:


> I've always held sheepdogs in the highest regard.  Regardless of their breed I have always thought of them as the best and am grateful for their strength and courage and willingness to do the job.   Baaa.



 They are sweet dogs. Myself? I prefer the mutt.


----------



## 2Parties

Barb said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> 
> yea because what would we do without the military starting wars and murdering in our countries name just so we can get attacked on our soil and hated throughout the world. and who can forget the cops who routinely abuse their power and ruin lives of people just to satisfy their own inadequacies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The military does not "start wars." It is our CIVILIAN government that does that.
Click to expand...


I didn't know politicians fire the weapons, drop bombs, and control the drones.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

2Parties said:


> The military/warrior/government worship continues.  Do not question the military religion.



That you see it as a religion says more about you than anybody else.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Barb said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived as long as I have from a low class world with lots of brothers, and having served the country, and having worked up the food chain, I think I know too well the sheepdogs. It is you who are still immature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the fella painting others with a wide brush.
> 
> What you have failed to do is address what I said.  You ARE projecting.
> 
> But, whatever floats your boat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh KAY. So the OP quoting an article that reduces the vast variety of humankind to three types is NOT using a broad brush. Gotcha.
Click to expand...


Apparently you have nothing at all.  I guess, in your mind, dividing human-kind into two genders is paiting with a wide brush as well?


----------



## 2Parties

Jim Jones said:
			
		

> That you see it as a religion says more about you than anybody else.



Definitely.


----------



## Barb

2Parties said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blu said:
> 
> 
> 
> yea because what would we do without the military starting wars and murdering in our countries name just so we can get attacked on our soil and hated throughout the world. and who can forget the cops who routinely abuse their power and ruin lives of people just to satisfy their own inadequacies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The military does not "start wars." It is our CIVILIAN government that does that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't know politicians fire the weapons, drop bombs, and control the drones.
Click to expand...


 They declare the war. What are you, 12? Never mind, that was an insult to 12-year-olds.


----------



## Barb

AdlerianThinker said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Says the fella painting others with a wide brush.
> 
> What you have failed to do is address what I said.  You ARE projecting.
> 
> But, whatever floats your boat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh KAY. So the OP quoting an article that reduces the vast variety of humankind to three types is NOT using a broad brush. Gotcha.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apparently you have nothing at all.  I guess, in your mind, dividing human-kind into two genders is paiting with a wide brush as well?
Click to expand...


 That was just stupid. Take yourself out back, cut a switch, and beat yourself.


----------



## blu

Barb said:


> 2Parties said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> The military does not "start wars." It is our CIVILIAN government that does that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know politicians fire the weapons, drop bombs, and control the drones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They declare the war. What are you, 12? Never mind, that was an insult to 12-year-olds.
Click to expand...


Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## xsited1

Gunny said:


> On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs



That looks vaguely familiar...  

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/66465-are-you-a-sheep-wolf-or-sheepdog.html


----------



## Barb

blu said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2Parties said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know politicians fire the weapons, drop bombs, and control the drones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They declare the war. What are you, 12? Never mind, that was an insult to 12-year-olds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


 I know what it is BLU, and when I do it, its because I really mean it.


----------



## Luissa

I love the fact he posted this in the military section and not in say general discussion, one could think Gunny was implying something.


----------



## Si modo

Barb said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived as long as I have from a low class world with lots of brothers, and having served the country, and having worked up the food chain, I think I know too well the sheepdogs. It is you who are still immature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the fella painting others with a wide brush.
> 
> What you have failed to do is address what I said.  You ARE projecting.
> 
> But, whatever floats your boat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh KAY. So the OP quoting an article that reduces the vast variety of humankind to three types is NOT using a broad brush. Gotcha.
Click to expand...

It's not an article.  It's an excerpt from a book.


----------



## 2Parties

Barb said:


> 2Parties said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> The military does not "start wars." It is our CIVILIAN government that does that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know politicians fire the weapons, drop bombs, and control the drones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They declare the war. What are you, 12? Never mind, that was an insult to 12-year-olds.
Click to expand...


What power would the politicians have if they didn't have the tools to accomplish their goals?


----------



## Zoom-boing

Barb said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've always held sheepdogs in the highest regard.  Regardless of their breed I have always thought of them as the best and am grateful for their strength and courage and willingness to do the job.   Baaa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are sweet dogs. Myself? I prefer the mutt.
Click to expand...


Me too.  This pic put my thoughts into a visual though.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Barb said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh KAY. So the OP quoting an article that reduces the vast variety of humankind to three types is NOT using a broad brush. Gotcha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you have nothing at all.  I guess, in your mind, dividing human-kind into two genders is paiting with a wide brush as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was just stupid. Take yourself out back, cut a switch, and beat yourself.
Click to expand...


What an awesome display of a lack of intelligence.  The village called, they are looking for their idiot.

Insert any number of vapid, pointless, juvenile put-downs here.  

That will sum up your contributions thus far.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Those who have a problem with this analogy often forget that Grossman notes that these are not hard and fast classifications.

These characteristics are based upon behaviors, and attitudes, but mostly behaviors.

A person who has been a sheep can easily become a sheep dog, or a wolf.

A person who has been a sheep dog can easily be a sheep, or a wolf.

A person who has been a wolf can easily be a sheep, or a sheep dog.

I have known people, sheep dogs, who bristle at being called a sheep dog.  They think of themselves as a wolf, again missing the point.

Stick with what Grossman actually said, and the headaches will go away.


----------



## SFC Ollie

I enjoyed the excerpt regardless of what anyone else has to say about it.

I guess I'm just one proud (yet old) Sheep Dog.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

sfc ollie said:


> i enjoyed the excerpt regardless of what anyone else has to say about it.
> 
> I guess i'm just one proud (yet old) sheep dog.



hooah!


----------



## AdlerianThinker

A sheepdog has fallen:
Iraqi insurgent fighter falls to his prey
Ahmed Subhi al-Fahal compared al-Qaida in Iraq to wolves, urging that the terrorist group be crushed since he believed its members would never reject violence. But the wolves got to the Iraqi insurgent fighter first.
Iraqi insurgent fighter falls to his prey

As the boys at Blackfive put it:
"He will be tough to replace, but they must and they must never waver. Sheepdogs do what sheepdogs must, they kill wolves."
BLACKFIVE: Iraqi Counterterror Sheepdog Killed

Who will step up in Iraq?


----------



## AdlerianThinker

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u67l7EaJRU[/ame]

Here's to sheepdogs.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

We love our sheep, we Dogs of War.

Woof.


----------



## Gunny

midcan5 said:


> Why does writing, sentiments like that remind me of the Nazi youth corps or the Maoist youth corps or the Japanese youth corps before their attempts to conquer the world because they were warriors and warriors are good and the others sheep. And why does it remind me of HS boys offering each other out, some hoping the other would step down and never offering to fight with someone whose reputation regardless of size was they would fight you no matter what. Or remind me of how immature braggadocio can be and how stupid and how often throughout history, so tragic. Words that like are often used by those who stir up trouble, listen to Bush Jr or Cheney, two draft dodgers, who had they served may have saved a great many tears.
> 
> "All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting."  George Orwell
> 
> 
> "We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen



I just love the way some people can find a dark lining in a silver cloud.  YOU are exactly one of the sheep the excerpt speaks of.  Your entire world and life has been brought to you by the blood of others; yet, you have so isolated yourself from the truth, you can't even figure out where it came from.


----------



## Gunny

midcan5 said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you will never understand the sheepdog, so you project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived as long as I have from a low class world with lots of brothers, and having served the country, and having worked up the food chain, I think I know too well the sheepdogs. It is you who are still immature.
Click to expand...


I'll take immature over the cluelessness to reality you continually display.


----------



## Bfgrn

Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> I love the fact he posted this in the military section and not in say general discussion, one could think Gunny was implying something.



I'm implying nothing.  I think the reason is obvious.


----------



## Gunny

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...



Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.


----------



## California Girl

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
Click to expand...


Quite a few of the sheep think that it is the sheepdogs who bring the wolves.  They are stupid sheep.


----------



## Bfgrn

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
Click to expand...


Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...

We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...

It's not a new story...

This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
Plato 

Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."


----------



## Bfgrn

California Girl said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quite a few of the sheep think that it is the sheepdogs who bring the wolves.  They are stupid sheep.
Click to expand...


Here's a few better George Washington quotes: 

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."

"Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. 
Thomas Jefferson


----------



## Intense

Other than giving Wolves a bad name, it is a great article. There are always those that have Protector Instinct in Them, the Predators worst Nightmare.


----------



## Gunny

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...
> 
> We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...
> 
> It's not a new story...
> 
> This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
> Plato
> 
> Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
Click to expand...


Project much?  Your assertion is nothing short of ridiculous and obviously, the message went right over your head.  Seems to be going around in this thread.

No one needs an excuse for violence to DEFEND.  Obviously you have a hard time with differentiating between defenders and perpetrators.   Neither the excerpt nor I have in any way condoned perpetrating violence.

Defending oneself and others AGAINST violence does not lead to tyranny ... it leads to breathing. 

Try getting the RIGHT words for your own mouth before presuming to put the wrong words in mine.


----------



## Gunny

Bfgrn said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a few of the sheep think that it is the sheepdogs who bring the wolves.  They are stupid sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's a few better George Washington quotes:
> 
> "Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."
> 
> "Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."
> 
> Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.
> Thomas Jefferson
Click to expand...


Irrelevant to the OP.  Just chicken little posturing.


----------



## Intense

Bfgrn said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a few of the sheep think that it is the sheepdogs who bring the wolves.  They are stupid sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's a few better George Washington quotes:
> 
> "Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."
> 
> "Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."
> 
> Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.
> Thomas Jefferson
Click to expand...


It seems that One Virtue absent from Your Utopia is Justice.


----------



## Intense

Isn't that what every Predator wants? Hesitation, pause, a free hand? Government Sanction?


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love the fact he posted this in the military section and not in say general discussion, one could think Gunny was implying something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm implying nothing.  I think the reason is obvious.
Click to expand...


because you can only be a sheepdog if you are in the military?
Yeah! I got that part.


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love the fact he posted this in the military section and not in say general discussion, one could think Gunny was implying something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm implying nothing.  I think the reason is obvious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> because you can only be a sheepdog if you are in the military?
> Yeah! I got that part.
Click to expand...


Nice.  Except "that part" isn't there, is it?

I implied no such thing, and your assumption doesn't make it so.


----------



## Luissa

then why didn't you put in the general discussion section?


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> then why didn't you put in the general discussion section?



Because I felt like putting it here.


----------



## Luissa

so therefore you are implying this has to do with the military and only the military.


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> so therefore you are implying this has to do with the military and only the military.



Incorrect.  It does have to do with military, but not solely the military.  Just like quite a few other topics on this board that can into various subforums.

You're making a bunch of noise about nothing.

Edit:  and when I need you to tell me where to put threads I'll make you a mod.


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> so therefore you are implying this has to do with the military and only the military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.  It does have to do with military, but not solely the military.  .
Click to expand...

 You just said it yourself.


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> so therefore you are implying this has to do with the military and only the military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:  and when I need you to tell me where to put threads I'll make you a mod.
Click to expand...

 and I was just talking to you as another poster not as admin, of course YOU had to bring it up.


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> so therefore you are implying this has to do with the military and only the military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.  It does have to do with military, but not solely the military.  .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You just said it yourself.
Click to expand...


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> so therefore you are implying this has to do with the military and only the military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:  and when I need you to tell me where to put threads I'll make you a mod.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and I was just talking to you as another poster not as admin, of course YOU had to bring it up.
Click to expand...


Incorrect again.  You were telling me where to put a thread.  Don't worry about where mine are.  Worry about you put yours.


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.  It does have to do with military, but not solely the military.  .
> 
> 
> 
> You just said it yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
Click to expand...


Thanks!


----------



## Intense

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6-4N0IPVh8&feature=related[/ame]


----------



## Bfgrn

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...
> 
> We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...
> 
> It's not a new story...
> 
> This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
> Plato
> 
> Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Project much?  Your assertion is nothing short of ridiculous and obviously, the message went right over your head.  Seems to be going around in this thread.
> 
> No one needs an excuse for violence to DEFEND.  Obviously you have a hard time with differentiating between defenders and perpetrators.   Neither the excerpt nor I have in any way condoned perpetrating violence.
> 
> Defending oneself and others AGAINST violence does not lead to tyranny ... it leads to breathing.
> 
> Try getting the RIGHT words for your own mouth before presuming to put the wrong words in mine.
Click to expand...


My point Gunny...the "sheepdog" that also has empathy, love and compassion is an anomaly...

The world didn't change one iota on 911...America did...

War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
*John F. Kennedy*


----------



## Intense

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...
> 
> We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...
> 
> It's not a new story...
> 
> This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
> Plato
> 
> Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project much?  Your assertion is nothing short of ridiculous and obviously, the message went right over your head.  Seems to be going around in this thread.
> 
> No one needs an excuse for violence to DEFEND.  Obviously you have a hard time with differentiating between defenders and perpetrators.   Neither the excerpt nor I have in any way condoned perpetrating violence.
> 
> Defending oneself and others AGAINST violence does not lead to tyranny ... it leads to breathing.
> 
> Try getting the RIGHT words for your own mouth before presuming to put the wrong words in mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point Gunny...the "sheepdog" that also has empathy, love and compassion is an anomaly...
> 
> The world didn't change one iota on 911...America did...
> 
> War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
> *John F. Kennedy*
Click to expand...


It has nothing to do wit it.


----------



## Intense

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...
> 
> We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...
> 
> It's not a new story...
> 
> This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
> Plato
> 
> Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project much?  Your assertion is nothing short of ridiculous and obviously, the message went right over your head.  Seems to be going around in this thread.
> 
> No one needs an excuse for violence to DEFEND.  Obviously you have a hard time with differentiating between defenders and perpetrators.   Neither the excerpt nor I have in any way condoned perpetrating violence.
> 
> Defending oneself and others AGAINST violence does not lead to tyranny ... it leads to breathing.
> 
> Try getting the RIGHT words for your own mouth before presuming to put the wrong words in mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point Gunny...the "sheepdog" that also has empathy, love and compassion is an anomaly...
> 
> The world didn't change one iota on 911...America did...
> 
> War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
> *John F. Kennedy*
Click to expand...


You are in denial. Preservation, self preservation, sense of Justice, are either in You or have been beaten out of You already. It transcends language and culture, and is easily recognized and appreciated. Why You need to drag it through the toilet is beyond Me?


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...



Then they aren't really sheepdogs, are they?


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, too many of those who portray themselves as sheepdogs are simply wolves in sheep clothing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, too many of those who are sheepdogs are portrayed as wolves by blind sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...
> 
> We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...
> 
> It's not a new story...
> 
> This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
> Plato
> 
> Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
Click to expand...


No, we are not all capable of violence.  And quite a few who perpetrate violence are more than capable of empathy, love and compassion.

Exhibit A - The American Soldier


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love the fact he posted this in the military section and not in say general discussion, one could think Gunny was implying something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm implying nothing.  I think the reason is obvious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> because you can only be a sheepdog if you are in the military?
> Yeah! I got that part.
Click to expand...


Cops are sheepdogs.  Fire fighters are sheepdogs.

One does not need a weapon to be a sheepdog.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...
> 
> We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...
> 
> It's not a new story...
> 
> This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
> Plato
> 
> Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project much?  Your assertion is nothing short of ridiculous and obviously, the message went right over your head.  Seems to be going around in this thread.
> 
> No one needs an excuse for violence to DEFEND.  Obviously you have a hard time with differentiating between defenders and perpetrators.   Neither the excerpt nor I have in any way condoned perpetrating violence.
> 
> Defending oneself and others AGAINST violence does not lead to tyranny ... it leads to breathing.
> 
> Try getting the RIGHT words for your own mouth before presuming to put the wrong words in mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point Gunny...the "sheepdog" that also has empathy, love and compassion is an anomaly...
> 
> The world didn't change one iota on 911...America did...
> 
> War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
> *John F. Kennedy*
Click to expand...


You know nothing of sheepdogs.


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:  and when I need you to tell me where to put threads I'll make you a mod.
> 
> 
> 
> and I was just talking to you as another poster not as admin, of course YOU had to bring it up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Incorrect again.  You were telling me where to put a thread.  Don't worry about where mine are.  Worry about you put yours.
Click to expand...

no, actually I asked you why you didn't put in general discussion, I didn't tell you to.


----------



## Diuretic

AdlerianThinker said:


> I've met LTC Grossman.  One intense individual.
> 
> His book "On Killing" should be required reading for everyone in the military and/or law enforcement.



I had a copy years ago, mate of mine pinched it off me, if he wasn't a martial artist excelling in the use of swords I would have killed him for pinching it.

Seriously.


----------



## Diuretic

Barb said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've always held sheepdogs in the highest regard.  Regardless of their breed I have always thought of them as the best and am grateful for their strength and courage and willingness to do the job.   Baaa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are sweet dogs. Myself? I prefer the mutt.
Click to expand...


They look a bit like Romneys, except the body isn't rotund enough.


----------



## Diuretic

2Parties said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2Parties said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know politicians fire the weapons, drop bombs, and control the drones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They declare the war. What are you, 12? Never mind, that was an insult to 12-year-olds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What power would the politicians have if they didn't have the tools to accomplish their goals?
Click to expand...


Shelley: _ War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, the lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade._


----------



## Diuretic

Oh by the way, the metaphor is - if you'll excuse the expression - apt to be beaten to death here.


----------



## Intense

Diuretic said:


> 2Parties said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barb said:
> 
> 
> 
> They declare the war. What are you, 12? Never mind, that was an insult to 12-year-olds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What power would the politicians have if they didn't have the tools to accomplish their goals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Shelley: _ War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, the lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade._
Click to expand...


The Tyrants dread, The Dictators fear. 
Why can't We just control Every aspect of the Sheeple's life and just be loved????????? LOL!!!! Why must We be Questioned?????? LOL!!! 

I had a Border Collie once. I took him to the Navaho Reservation once, He was a Natural with the sheep and goats. Ironic, the sheep dogs lived off of the dung. When the time came to leave, He stayed.


----------



## Diuretic

Intense said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2Parties said:
> 
> 
> 
> What power would the politicians have if they didn't have the tools to accomplish their goals?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shelley: _ War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, the lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Tyrants dread, The Dictators fear.
> Why can't We just control Every aspect of the Sheeple's life and just be loved????????? LOL!!!! Why must We be Questioned?????? LOL!!!
> 
> I had a Border Collie once. I took him to the Navaho Reservation once, He was a Natural with the sheep and goats. Ironic, the sheep dogs lived off of the dung. When the time came to leave, He stayed.
Click to expand...


The problem with the metaphor, extended yet again in your post, is that it privileges one type of citizen over another.


----------



## Intense

Diuretic said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shelley: _ War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, the lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Tyrants dread, The Dictators fear.
> Why can't We just control Every aspect of the Sheeple's life and just be loved????????? LOL!!!! Why must We be Questioned?????? LOL!!!
> 
> I had a Border Collie once. I took him to the Navaho Reservation once, He was a Natural with the sheep and goats. Ironic, the sheep dogs lived off of the dung. When the time came to leave, He stayed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem with the metaphor, extended yet again in your post, is that it privileges one type of citizen over another.
Click to expand...


LOL. That's not the problem , it's the point.


----------



## Diuretic

Intense said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Tyrants dread, The Dictators fear.
> Why can't We just control Every aspect of the Sheeple's life and just be loved????????? LOL!!!! Why must We be Questioned?????? LOL!!!
> 
> I had a Border Collie once. I took him to the Navaho Reservation once, He was a Natural with the sheep and goats. Ironic, the sheep dogs lived off of the dung. When the time came to leave, He stayed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with the metaphor, extended yet again in your post, is that it privileges one type of citizen over another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL. That's not the problem , it's the point.
Click to expand...


My problem with Grossman's metaphor is that it is overly simplistic.


----------



## Gunny

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny, your sheepdog is the product of your over inflated ego...a fictional character that serves as a self righteous excuse for violence...
> 
> We are all capable of violence. but few that perpetrate violence are capable of empathy, love and compassion...
> 
> It's not a new story...
> 
> This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
> Plato
> 
> Abraham Lincoln said it best: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project much?  Your assertion is nothing short of ridiculous and obviously, the message went right over your head.  Seems to be going around in this thread.
> 
> No one needs an excuse for violence to DEFEND.  Obviously you have a hard time with differentiating between defenders and perpetrators.   Neither the excerpt nor I have in any way condoned perpetrating violence.
> 
> Defending oneself and others AGAINST violence does not lead to tyranny ... it leads to breathing.
> 
> Try getting the RIGHT words for your own mouth before presuming to put the wrong words in mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point Gunny...the "sheepdog" that also has empathy, love and compassion is an anomaly...
> 
> The world didn't change one iota on 911...America did...
> 
> War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
> *John F. Kennedy*[/QUOTE
> 
> Your point is full of shit.  Try again?
Click to expand...


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> and I was just talking to you as another poster not as admin, of course YOU had to bring it up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect again.  You were telling me where to put a thread.  Don't worry about where mine are.  Worry about you put yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, actually I asked you why you didn't put in general discussion, I didn't tell you to.
Click to expand...


Right.


----------



## Gunny

Diuretic said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with the metaphor, extended yet again in your post, is that it privileges one type of citizen over another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. That's not the problem , it's the point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My problem with Grossman's metaphor is that it is overly simplistic.
Click to expand...


It privileges no one, and there is nothing wrong with simplicity.  Especially with what you are calling "simplistic" has zoomed over quite a few heads.


----------



## Intense

Diuretic said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shelley: _ War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, the lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Tyrants dread, The Dictators fear.
> Why can't We just control Every aspect of the Sheeple's life and just be loved????????? LOL!!!! Why must We be Questioned?????? LOL!!!
> 
> I had a Border Collie once. I took him to the Navaho Reservation once, He was a Natural with the sheep and goats. Ironic, the sheep dogs lived off of the dung. When the time came to leave, He stayed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem with the metaphor, extended yet again in your post, is that it privileges one type of citizen over another.
Click to expand...


We All stand or fall on merit. Circumstance dictates who has the upper hand. When the shit hits the fan, Those that handle it best are preferred. When You need a Root Canal a Dentist is Preferred. When You are Robbed a Cop is preferred. When your house is on fire a fireman. When your pipes break, a plumber. Why do you place arbitrary worth and value, always measuring? Why not concentrate on Your Own Path? Stop with this " It didn't happen if the Group doesn't acknowledge that it did" mentality, and have some fun. Nothing lets the air out of a doers tires faster than the consensus process. Don't make Me have to come down to Sheep Land down under and have to rescue You from some Cult. If I do You better have good beer.


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect again.  You were telling me where to put a thread.  Don't worry about where mine are.  Worry about you put yours.
> 
> 
> 
> no, actually I asked you why you didn't put in general discussion, I didn't tell you to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right.
Click to expand...

I am not the one who handed my point to me on a platter.


----------



## Gunny

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> no, actually I asked you why you didn't put in general discussion, I didn't tell you to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not the one who handed my point to me on a platter.
Click to expand...


Yeah you are.  You're the only one who did it.  Try again.


----------



## Luissa

Gunny said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the one who handed my point to me on a platter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are.  You're the only one who did it.  Try again.
Click to expand...


man I wish I had the power to edit quotes too!


----------



## dilloduck

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the one who handed my point to me on a platter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah you are.  You're the only one who did it.  Try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> man I wish I had the power to edit quotes too!
Click to expand...


power will make you crazy


----------



## Luissa

dilloduck said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah you are.  You're the only one who did it.  Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> man I wish I had the power to edit quotes too!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> power will make you crazy
Click to expand...


In my case it does, I hate chaos and I hate stupid people under me.


----------



## dilloduck

Luissa said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> man I wish I had the power to edit quotes too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> power will make you crazy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In my case it does, I hate chaos and I hate stupid people under me.
Click to expand...


hmmmmm-so many options to reply with------


----------



## Luissa

dilloduck said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> power will make you crazy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my case it does, I hate chaos and I hate stupid people under me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> hmmmmm-so many options to reply with------
Click to expand...


I did leave myself open, maybe I was helping Gunny get a little pay back on me.


----------



## B94

> And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
> 
> "Baa."



I never say "Baa".


----------



## Bfgrn

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Project much?  Your assertion is nothing short of ridiculous and obviously, the message went right over your head.  Seems to be going around in this thread.
> 
> No one needs an excuse for violence to DEFEND.  Obviously you have a hard time with differentiating between defenders and perpetrators.   Neither the excerpt nor I have in any way condoned perpetrating violence.
> 
> Defending oneself and others AGAINST violence does not lead to tyranny ... it leads to breathing.
> 
> Try getting the RIGHT words for your own mouth before presuming to put the wrong words in mine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point Gunny...the "sheepdog" that also has empathy, love and compassion is an anomaly...
> 
> The world didn't change one iota on 911...America did...
> 
> War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
> *John F. Kennedy*[/QUOTE
> 
> Your point is full of shit.  Try again?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is valid, you have shit for brains... you have the cognitive depth of a gnat...
Click to expand...


----------



## Diuretic

Intense said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Tyrants dread, The Dictators fear.
> Why can't We just control Every aspect of the Sheeple's life and just be loved????????? LOL!!!! Why must We be Questioned?????? LOL!!!
> 
> I had a Border Collie once. I took him to the Navaho Reservation once, He was a Natural with the sheep and goats. Ironic, the sheep dogs lived off of the dung. When the time came to leave, He stayed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with the metaphor, extended yet again in your post, is that it privileges one type of citizen over another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We All stand or fall on merit. Circumstance dictates who has the upper hand. When the shit hits the fan, Those that handle it best are preferred. When You need a Root Canal a Dentist is Preferred. When You are Robbed a Cop is preferred. When your house is on fire a fireman. When your pipes break, a plumber. Why do you place arbitrary worth and value, always measuring? Why not concentrate on Your Own Path? Stop with this " It didn't happen if the Group doesn't acknowledge that it did" mentality, and have some fun. Nothing lets the air out of a doers tires faster than the consensus process. Don't make Me have to come down to Sheep Land down under and have to rescue You from some Cult. If I do You better have good beer.
Click to expand...


We have good beer and we have crap beer, I can provide guidance, as can JW.  As for our sheep - they are myriad and diverse.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point Gunny...the "sheepdog" that also has empathy, love and compassion is an anomaly...
> 
> The world didn't change one iota on 911...America did...
> 
> War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
> *John F. Kennedy*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your point is full of shit.  Try again?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is valid, you have shit for brains... you have the cognitive depth of a gnat...
Click to expand...


If your point was that compassionate, empathic sheep dogs are an anomaly, then yes, your point is full of shit.


----------



## Intense

Diuretic said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with the metaphor, extended yet again in your post, is that it privileges one type of citizen over another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We All stand or fall on merit. Circumstance dictates who has the upper hand. When the shit hits the fan, Those that handle it best are preferred. When You need a Root Canal a Dentist is Preferred. When You are Robbed a Cop is preferred. When your house is on fire a fireman. When your pipes break, a plumber. Why do you place arbitrary worth and value, always measuring? Why not concentrate on Your Own Path? Stop with this " It didn't happen if the Group doesn't acknowledge that it did" mentality, and have some fun. Nothing lets the air out of a doers tires faster than the consensus process. Don't make Me have to come down to Sheep Land down under and have to rescue You from some Cult. If I do You better have good beer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have good beer and we have crap beer, I can provide guidance, as can JW.  As for our sheep - they are myriad and diverse.
Click to expand...


LOL, We'll stick with the beer, leave the sheep to Yukon and the resident Nambla croud.


----------



## Bfgrn

AdlerianThinker said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your point is full of shit.  Try again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point is valid, you have shit for brains... you have the cognitive depth of a gnat...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If your point was that compassionate, empathic sheep dogs are an *anomaly*, then yes, your point is full of shit.
Click to expand...


Maybe you just don't understand the English language...

*anomaly*
noun

1. a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form.

Synonyms:
1, 2. abnormality, exception, peculiarity.

DO they exist, yes...are they very rare, yes...are there any on this thread, NO...


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Bfgrn said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is valid, you have shit for brains... you have the cognitive depth of a gnat...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your point was that compassionate, empathic sheep dogs are an *anomaly*, then yes, your point is full of shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you just don't understand the English language...
> 
> *anomaly*
> noun
> 
> 1. a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form.
> 
> Synonyms:
> 1, 2. abnormality, exception, peculiarity.
> 
> DO they exist, yes...are they very rare, yes...are there any on this thread, NO...
Click to expand...


Your condescending offer of an unnecessary definition notwithstanding, your point is still full of shit.  Offering such a definition to an unsupported opinion doesn't support the opinion. 

It is compassion and empathy that separates a sheepdog from a wolf.

You confuse willingness to use violence with desire.  

A soldier who LIKES hurting others is an anomaly.

The very fact that, absent any personal knowledge of anyone in this thread, you would state an opinion that would require such knowledge is a firm indicator of just how fukll oif shits your opinions are.


----------



## Bfgrn

AdlerianThinker said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your point was that compassionate, empathic sheep dogs are an *anomaly*, then yes, your point is full of shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you just don't understand the English language...
> 
> *anomaly*
> noun
> 
> 1. a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form.
> 
> Synonyms:
> 1, 2. abnormality, exception, peculiarity.
> 
> DO they exist, yes...are they very rare, yes...are there any on this thread, NO...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your condescending offer of an unnecessary definition notwithstanding, your point is still full of shit.  Offering such a definition to an unsupported opinion doesn't support the opinion.
> 
> It is compassion and empathy that separates a sheepdog from a wolf.
> 
> You confuse willingness to use violence with desire.
> 
> A soldier who LIKES hurting others is an anomaly.
> 
> The very fact that, absent any personal knowledge of anyone in this thread, you would state an opinion that would require such knowledge is a firm indicator of just how fukll oif shits your opinions are.
Click to expand...


Condescending...my God...the original post is the most condescending piece of self righteous shit I've ever seen...it was written by a moron...he contradicts himself about the threat of violent crime and then tries to say somehow human nature has changed...

It is nothing more than chest thumping garbage...


----------



## Diuretic

According to my wife I do a very good line in condescending - apparently I have to cut it out.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Bfgrn said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you just don't understand the English language...
> 
> *anomaly*
> noun
> 
> 1. a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form.
> 
> Synonyms:
> 1, 2. abnormality, exception, peculiarity.
> 
> DO they exist, yes...are they very rare, yes...are there any on this thread, NO...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your condescending offer of an unnecessary definition notwithstanding, your point is still full of shit.  Offering such a definition to an unsupported opinion doesn't support the opinion.
> 
> It is compassion and empathy that separates a sheepdog from a wolf.
> 
> You confuse willingness to use violence with desire.
> 
> A soldier who LIKES hurting others is an anomaly.
> 
> The very fact that, absent any personal knowledge of anyone in this thread, you would state an opinion that would require such knowledge is a firm indicator of just how fukll oif shits your opinions are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Condescending...my God...the original post is the most condescending piece of self righteous shit I've ever seen...it was written by a moron...he contradicts himself about the threat of violent crime and then tries to say somehow human nature has changed...
> 
> It is nothing more than chest thumping garbage...
Click to expand...


Uh huh.  Still just an unsupported opinion.  

And here I was, all excited I might get some thoughtful insight.

I'll get used to the disappointment.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Diuretic said:


> According to my wife I do a very good line in condescending - apparently I have to cut it out.





Apparently your wife knows my wife.  My skull has callouses from the number of times she's whacked me for being condescending.

Don't get me started on what she does when I'm arrogant.  

She has made me a changed man.  Most likely due to the multiple blunt force trauma......


----------



## Diuretic

AdlerianThinker said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to my wife I do a very good line in condescending - apparently I have to cut it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently your wife knows my wife.  My skull has callouses from the number of times she's whacked me for being condescending.
> 
> Don't get me started on what she does when I'm arrogant.
> 
> She has made me a changed man.  Most likely due to the multiple blunt force trauma......
Click to expand...


Sounds like they went to the same Wife School....but I resist, I get condescending when she isn't watching...I am a condescending guerilla.....


----------



## Saladin

Gunny said:


> By definition, the sheep cannot be the sheepdog.  The sheepdog protects the flock.  Always.  The sheep might try to protect itself and its own and get lucky, but will revert back to being a sheep the second the personal threat is over.



Little more than a cheap justification for the division of humanity into order givers and order takers, with the threat of violent force behind the will of the order givers. The basis for every jingoistic military junta/regime throughout existence. When the Israeli state terrorists assault the civilian population, it has historically been and continues to be ordinary persons who stand up and resist their oppression, as war turns bakers into butchers.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Diuretic said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to my wife I do a very good line in condescending - apparently I have to cut it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently your wife knows my wife.  My skull has callouses from the number of times she's whacked me for being condescending.
> 
> Don't get me started on what she does when I'm arrogant.
> 
> She has made me a changed man.  Most likely due to the multiple blunt force trauma......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sounds like they went to the same Wife School....but I resist, I get condescending when she isn't watching...I am a condescending guerilla.....
Click to expand...


I must be the arrogant insurgency.....


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Saladin said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> By definition, the sheep cannot be the sheepdog.  The sheepdog protects the flock.  Always.  The sheep might try to protect itself and its own and get lucky, but will revert back to being a sheep the second the personal threat is over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Little more than a cheap justification for the division of humanity into order givers and order takers, with the threat of violent force behind the will of the order givers. The basis for every jingoistic military junta/regime throughout existence. When the Israeli state terrorists assault the civilian population, it has historically been and continues to be ordinary persons who stand up and resist their oppression, as war turns bakers into butchers.
Click to expand...


Such a deep, insightful analysis.  

You deride jingoistic tendencies, and then engage in jingoistic rhetoric. 

Palestinian "freedom fighters" protect no one.  Often their very actions hurt the ones they supposedly defend.

Pretty shitty sheepdogs, indeed.


----------



## Saladin

AdlerianThinker said:


> Such a deep, insightful analysis.
> 
> You deride jingoistic tendencies, and then engage in jingoistic rhetoric.
> 
> Palestinian "freedom fighters" protect no one.  Often their very actions hurt the ones they supposedly defend.
> 
> Pretty shitty sheepdogs, indeed.



You seem to have little comprehension or understanding of the comment that you've quoted. I consistently opposed the hierarchical division and regimentation of humanity into "sheep" and "sheep dogs" that was advanced here and offered an example of ordinary humans unconditioned by formal law enforcement or military training taking up arms against oppressors. That is the basis of every guerrilla militia or movement, regardless of its merits.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Saladin said:


> AdlerianThinker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Such a deep, insightful analysis.
> 
> You deride jingoistic tendencies, and then engage in jingoistic rhetoric.
> 
> Palestinian "freedom fighters" protect no one.  Often their very actions hurt the ones they supposedly defend.
> 
> Pretty shitty sheepdogs, indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to have little comprehension or understanding of the comment that you've quoted. I consistently opposed the hierarchical division and regimentation of humanity into "sheep" and "sheep dogs" that was advanced here and offered an example of ordinary humans unconditioned by formal law enforcement or military training taking up arms against oppressors. That is the basis of every guerrilla militia or movement, regardless of its merits.
Click to expand...


The "You don't know what you're saying" tactic is weak.

There was no "hierarchal" division offered.  As a matter of fact, there were at least two explicit statements to the contrary in the OP, by Grossman himself.  An interesting attempt at a straw man argument.

It takes no training to be a sheepdog.  Again, Grossman did not make that claim, nor have I seen anyone else do so.  Yet another straw man argument.

The Palestinian terrorists are not sheepdogs, as sheepdogs do not prey on the weak and defenseless.

It seems to me that you are more against the assignation of nobility to the sheepdog, as it certainly does not apply to Palestinian "freedom fighters" who attack civilians, and fire rockets at defenseless towns.

Maybe you should go back and re-read the OP, if you even read it at all.


----------



## AdlerianThinker

From the OP:
"Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be."

Later on,
"There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage."

And perhaps the most important part was right at the end,
"This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth."

SO tell me where you got this "hierarchal" notion?


----------



## Saladin

From the comment that I quoted, as well as the fact that I was not so foolish as to expect notions of hierarchy to be openly expressed. Try reading more carefully next time.


----------



## 2Parties

Warriors


----------



## AdlerianThinker

Saladin said:


> From the comment that I quoted, as well as the fact that I was not so foolish as to expect notions of hierarchy to be openly expressed. Try reading more carefully next time.


 
I did read carefully, and continue to do so.  Thus your weaknesses were exposed.

For "notions of hierarchy" to be inferred, there must be some basis.  You have not provided the basis, certainly not to the point that the explicit denials of the author were refuted.

Try thinking more clearly next time.


----------

