# brake problem



## TNHarley (Nov 30, 2015)

As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
I checked my fluid. I checked the balance. I know it isn't the booster. The drums are only about 10K miles old and the pads are fine.
Any advice?


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## Pogo (Nov 30, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
> I checked my fluid. I checked the balance. I know it isn't the booster. The drums are only about 10K miles old and the pads are fine.
> Any advice?



Yeah -- don't be on the road when I come out there later this week.  

Sorry, couldn't resist....


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## TNHarley (Nov 30, 2015)

lol you little shit


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## Moonglow (Nov 30, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
> I checked my fluid. I checked the balance. I know it isn't the booster. The drums are only about 10K miles old and the pads are fine.
> Any advice?


We had the same problem  seems the tires we changed to needed 55psi, instead of 32psi...


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## aaronleland (Nov 30, 2015)

Ignore it. Who needs brakes anyways?


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## Moonglow (Nov 30, 2015)

Have you checked the rotors?


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## Pogo (Nov 30, 2015)

aaronleland said:


> Ignore it. Who needs brakes anyways?



Braking is just wasted energy and bad planning.  Just coast.  See new places, meet new people.


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## Moonglow (Nov 30, 2015)

Have you checked the calipers?


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## TNHarley (Nov 30, 2015)

Moonglow said:


> TNHarley said:
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> > As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
> ...


 And that didn't affect the front?


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## TNHarley (Nov 30, 2015)

Its not the calipers but the rotor is possible I guess. Hek, I didn't even think about them. Thanks!


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## Moonglow (Nov 30, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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It was the font that was shaking the worst....The people that owned the vehicle before us had the wrong sized tires on it...


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## DarkFury (Nov 30, 2015)

*you may need to change the proportioning valve in the back. Most often found on the rear end. *


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 30, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
> I checked my fluid. I checked the balance. I know it isn't the booster. The drums are only about 10K miles old and the pads are fine.
> Any advice?



    Thats a weird one. 
 What were you running before the 33s?
       Have you tried backing up and hitting the brakes several times to activate the break adjusters? 
   Being a 95 you dont have traction control which can mess things up when going with a larger tire.


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## TNHarley (Nov 30, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> TNHarley said:
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> > As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
> ...


 Some small all-terrains is all I remember.
I am going to check the rotors when I get home. Now that I think about it, sometimes, if I tap the brakes, it will stop abruptly. Which is a clear sign of bad rotors.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 30, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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    You mean the drums if the problem is in the rear.


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## TNHarley (Nov 30, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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 yes. Considering they are newer, maybe they just need some work?


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 30, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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   If they were somewhat new you may have some glazing due to improper break in.
   Which can sometimes be corrected with a little sandpaper.


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## Old Yeller (Nov 30, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> The drums are only about 10K miles old and the pads are fine.




can't have drums and pads at same time.  Rotors could be warped but suddenly warp because you change tire?  Maybe?  bigger loading or something?  

Did you remember to tighten the Lug nut?   just kidding.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> Its not the calipers but the rotor is possible I guess. Hek, I didn't even think about them. Thanks!



If a problem starts when you changed something, it's 99% that it's what you changed that is causing the problem.

It goes, 
Suddenly I have shaking when braking, what's different?

The tires are the difference.  



Do you have an old spare?  Put that on one side in the rear and drive around.  If there's no difference then try it on the other side.  If the spare makes the shaking go away then it's something in whichever new tire you just took off.


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

NYcarbineer said:


> TNHarley said:
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> > Its not the calipers but the rotor is possible I guess. Hek, I didn't even think about them. Thanks!
> ...


 That ran through my mind. But it can be sooooo bad. Like the truck is about to just fall apart..


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## strollingbones (Dec 2, 2015)

glazing normally makes them squeal....wont make them shake


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

strollingbones said:


> glazing normally makes them squeal....wont make them shake


 no squealing. Everything sounds fine. But it will shake a turd out of a horse..


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## strollingbones (Dec 2, 2015)

check the wheel balance.....pull the ....o hell what are they called....rim...pull the rim and look for anything caught in it....if this started with new tires i would look or a problem there....


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## strollingbones (Dec 2, 2015)

could be as simple as a rock caught in the thread...but remember car repair is keep it simple stupid...start with easy and work your way up


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## Alystyr (Dec 2, 2015)

No vibration when there's no braking pretty much points to the brake system as the cause.
If it were the wheel/tire, you'd have it all the time, or probably just at speed.
It could be possible that something got dislodged when the tires got replaced, or maybe the drum didn't get re-seated all the way.
Even though you said that the drums are newer, you still could do well by having them checked. Drums are tough, tougher than disks (they warp) for certain, but they still can go out-of-round. It wouldn't take but the tiniest fraction of a millimeter to cause what you described.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> [ But it will shake a turd out of a horse..



I'm curious as to how you would know that measurement?  lol


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

Alystyr said:


> No vibration when there's no braking pretty much points to the brake system as the cause.
> If it were the wheel/tire, you'd have it all the time, or probably just at speed.
> It could be possible that something got dislodged when the tires got replaced, or maybe the drum didn't get re-seated all the way.
> Even though you said that the drums are newer, you still could do well by having them checked. Drums are tough, tougher than disks (they warp) for certain, but they still can go out-of-round. It wouldn't take but the tiniest fraction of a millimeter to cause what you described.


 Yea, I decided last night I was just going to take it somewhere Sat morning. Im not going to mess with it.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> Alystyr said:
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> > No vibration when there's no braking pretty much points to the brake system as the cause.
> ...



Take it to who put the tires on.  It started immediately, didn't it?


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## Alystyr (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> Alystyr said:
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> > No vibration when there's no braking pretty much points to the brake system as the cause.
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Not a bad idea.
I can redo disk brakes all day, since they're so simple to deal with, but I still hesitate to deal with drums.
Disk jobs take one socket and a C-clamp... drums take a few special tools due to the springs, adjusters, etc., and if everything isn't put back exactly right, you get problems.


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

NYcarbineer said:


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 I just moved.. but there is a good brake/tire place a few miles down the road.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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lol, who will want to sell you brakes whether you need them or not.


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## strollingbones (Dec 2, 2015)

ny is right...i had some motor work and body work done at the same time....banged out a few dents on the hood.....fine on interstate....soon as i hit the mountains i hear a horrible thud...around each curve....i had to wait a few weeks before i could get back down the mountain and return to the mechanic...i told him the problem.....he pops the hood looks around the motor ..reaches in and pull out some type of metal tool...goes 'i been looking all over for this'.....and that was my horrible engine noise...but start with the tire people


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## strollingbones (Dec 2, 2015)

midas will rape you on brakes


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## Alystyr (Dec 2, 2015)

NYcarbineer said:


> lol, who will want to sell you brakes whether you need them or not.


Possible, but not necessarily true.
Back before I started doing most of my own work, I once went to a local Firestone store because my back brakes were making a heck of a racket. I thought for certain that I was going to need new ones, but IIRC, the bill came to a whopping $20. Turns out that the noise was just due to dust build-up in the drums. They also tightened my parking brake cable in the process.
Whodathunk that Firestone would be that honest, with a blank check like that staring them in the face?


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## jon_berzerk (Dec 2, 2015)

tire pressure and balancing for starters


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## jon_berzerk (Dec 2, 2015)

could be the brakes themselves 

calipers and such


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## jon_berzerk (Dec 2, 2015)

on my dodge i had a serious vibration problem in the rear end 

when braking and at various odd times 

i checked everything had brake guys check everything 

nothing 

turned out to be a hanging parking brake


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## Alystyr (Dec 2, 2015)

jon_berzerk said:


> on my dodge i had a serious vibration problem in the rear end
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> when braking and at various odd times
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Just goes to show how something really simple and minor can cause a lot of headaches.


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## jon_berzerk (Dec 2, 2015)

Alystyr said:


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it did i was ready to replace the rear end 

--LOL


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

Could you be getting axle wrap due to the larger tires?
Now that I think about it thats probably whats happening.

   It makes sense when you take your description into account.
When you hit the brakes hard it loads the springs and stops the shake,when you hit them lightly there's not enough force to flex the springs.
    But when you use them normally it loads and releases the spring causing the shudder.


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## strollingbones (Dec 2, 2015)

are the front and back tires different sizes?


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

strollingbones said:


> are the front and back tires different sizes?



   If it's a 4 wheel drive they better not be.


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## Alystyr (Dec 2, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Could you be getting axle wrap due to the larger tires?
> Now that I think about it thats probably whats happening.


That would possibly cause a constant or speed-sensitive vibration, same as if the wheel was an issue. Since it only happens with braking, I'd put low odds on it.
Anything's possible, though, and stranger things have happened.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

Alystyr said:


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   It makes total sense. And I'd be willing to bet thats the cause.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

Alystyr said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
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When you hit the brakes hard it loads the springs and stops the shake,when you hit them lightly there's not enough force to flex the springs.
But when you use them normally it loads and releases the spring causing the shudder.


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Could you be getting axle wrap due to the larger tires?
> Now that I think about it thats probably whats happening.
> 
> It makes sense when you take your description into account.
> ...


Doesn't that involve leaf springs? I have coil springs in the rear.


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

strollingbones said:


> are the front and back tires different sizes?


 no


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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  Whoops my bad. I could have sworn the 95 had leaf springs.
Back to the drawing board.


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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 You are not the first person that thought that. lol


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

Which the coils need to be replaced too. I love me a Toyota but the damn 4 runners LOVE to sag!!


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## Alystyr (Dec 2, 2015)

A bent axle is really easy to check for. Just jack up the rear end so both wheels are just clear of the ground and let them slowly spin in gear at idle (use jackstands for safety). Push a cinder block or other heavy object close to the side of both tires. Any wheel wobble will be clearly visible.
This is also a good test for bent rims or tire belt issues, BTW.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

After doing some searching this appears to be common with the second gen 4runners.
    And I havent found any solid answers to the problem.
 I've read everything from bad drums,bad axle bearings and even bad U-joints.


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## Alystyr (Dec 2, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> After doing some searching this appears to be common with the second gen 4runners.
> And I havent found any solid answers to the problem.
> I've read everything from bad drums,bad axle bearings and even bad U-joints.


From what you are saying, it almost sounds like Toyota may have put too weak of a drive train in those vehicles. Uncommon for that company, since their stuff is usually rock-solid.


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

Alystyr said:


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 blasphemy! lol


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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  Have you checked your control arms?
If they are worn you'll get something that resembles axle wrap.


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## TNHarley (Dec 2, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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 I had them checked when I had the tires put on


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 2, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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   Get a buddy to follow you with a video camera so you can get a better idea of whats going on.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 3, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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Be sure to tell us what it turns out to be.  

btw, does the vibration pulse with the speed of the vehice, iow, is it a thump thump thump that gets faster or slower depending on how fast the vehicle is going when you depress the pedal?


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## TNHarley (Dec 3, 2015)

NYcarbineer said:


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 Oh, I will!
Yes, I guess you can say that.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 3, 2015)

lol, the redneck fix is...

if it's a 2 stage master cylinder, pull off the line going to the rear brakes and put a little rubber plug in the fitting, then put it back on.  Voila! the rear brakes will be disabled and no more vibration, if they're the culprits.  Your front brakes will stop you, most of the time, lol.

Happy motoring!  Drive carefully.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 3, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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Something out of round or misaligned.  Somebody said check the lugnuts for tightness.


NYcarbineer said:


> lol, the redneck fix is...
> 
> if it's a 2 stage master cylinder, pull off the line going to the rear brakes and put a little rubber plug in the fitting, then put it back on.  Voila! the rear brakes will be disabled and no more vibration, if they're the culprits.  Your front brakes will stop you, most of the time, lol.
> 
> Happy motoring!  Drive carefully.



To be honest I've done that before, but only because I had a busted rear brake line and I wanted to drive it to  the shop without losing all the brake fluid and ending up on no brakes, or having to have it towed for $100.

I survived.


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## strollingbones (Dec 3, 2015)

o lug nuts...good thinking......i had loose ones....my wheel came off as i was going down the road....i dont know what was worse...the noise of hitting the road with one wheel gones...or seeing your wheel rolling in front of you then up a hill....


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## Book of Jeremiah (Dec 3, 2015)

TNHarley said:


> As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
> I checked my fluid. I checked the balance. I know it isn't the booster. The drums are only about 10K miles old and the pads are fine.
> Any advice?


Yes.  Take the 33" tires off and put the other ones back on.  Problem solved.  No charge.

The Toyota 4 runner was not made for a 33" tire.  Unless you change the rear end and axle to accommodate a 33" tire - it's too much tire for the truck, Harley.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 3, 2015)

Jeremiah said:


> TNHarley said:
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  Nah....I've run 33s on all my Toyotas without a problem.


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## TNHarley (Dec 3, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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 My dad has had super swampers on his 89' for years with no problems.
He also has super swampers on his rock crawler he built. 
He is the reason I like Toyotas so much


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## TNHarley (Dec 3, 2015)

Jeremiah said:


> TNHarley said:
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> > As soon as I added some 33" tires to my 95 4-runner, my rear end started shaking when I hit my brakes. If I slam on them or barely use them they don't shake. If I use them "normally" all hell breaks loose.
> ...


33s aren't that big.. I would have put bigger but the hwy noise...


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 3, 2015)

TNHarley said:


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  I wont drive any thing else.
I wheel the shit out of em and they keep on working.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 4, 2015)

strollingbones said:


> o lug nuts...good thinking......i had loose ones....my wheel came off as i was going down the road....i dont know what was worse...the noise of hitting the road with one wheel gones...or seeing your wheel rolling in front of you then up a hill....



I've had them loosen up after putting wheels on.  If that's the problem though usually it gets worse and worse.  Always worth checking though.
And grab each real wheel and shake it side to side, see if there's any play.


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## BruSan (Dec 5, 2015)

Not knowing the vehicle intimately; are the wheels hub piloted or stud piloted and depending upon the answer it cold simply be a case of someone, when changing the tires leaving some rust or other crap on the face of the brake drum or inside of wheel to then cause distortion when re-torque was done.

Other consideration is; any imbalance of tire will be multiplied a lot while braking is done with lower air pressures in tires.  The tire deforms under braking and balance of tire goes to extreme of the deformity so the shaking will gradually increase throughout a constant application braking event.

Sorta feels like you've gone over a diagonal railroad crossing at speed with a solid "I" beam front axle and worn-out shocks; you later get your self back in the seat and pick your dentures off the floor about two miles down the road.


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## jillian (Dec 5, 2015)

Pogo said:


> aaronleland said:
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> > Ignore it. Who needs brakes anyways?
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i understand. but i hate driving behind coasters.


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## BruSan (Dec 5, 2015)

Trouble shooting tips.

Pump 'em up an additional 10-15 psi....observe any change in braking events. 

Jack up one side until you can spin the tire by hand and see what you get viv-a-vis an intermittent drum drag. You could even slightly adjust shoes in tighter to see if the drag is even through a full rotation of tire.  Doing that with both wheels might eliminate a suspected drum warp as cause.

Interchanging rear wheels with an inspection of wheel/drum mating surfaces.

Next up.....perform a full stop on a back country road using nothing but a gentle application of the E brake. This removes any front to rear brake bias question from the equation.  If your problem persists with just using the E brake then a proportioning valve issue would not seem to be the case and you've narrowed it down to one of rear/brakes/wheels/tires. If however your problem goes away, now you've got to consider weight transfer forward and off those rear tires under normal braking causing or contributing to your problem.


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## TNHarley (Dec 5, 2015)

Went to the shop this morning. I got out of this one for free.
Guy said his son had a 94 and it was doing pretty much the same thing. He said to go out and drive it for about 5 minutes using just the e brake.
I did it and it almost gone! I went back to tell him the results and he said just use it a little for the next couple of days.
There is barely a hobble back there now.
He said my back brakes never get used on my truck. 95% is all my front. The e brake just needed to get used a little...


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## TNHarley (Dec 5, 2015)

He also said when I put the bigger tires on, it just aggravated it too much..


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## TNHarley (Dec 5, 2015)

They need to put my weird ass story in a  car magazine lol. I wish you guys could have felt that shake!!
Thanks for the help!


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## TNHarley (Dec 5, 2015)

Just took it out on the four lane so I could check it at high speed. Doing 70 it shook bad but not AS bad. When I used the e brake and the floor brake together, it was smooth as could be


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## BruSan (Dec 5, 2015)

That's good info to know.

Does anyone know if this vehicle has self adjusting rear shoes that will ratchet the adjuster screw if brakes are applied firmly while backing up?

If so you might find simply adjusting the shoes so that they are closer to the drum might solve your problem but if not, then changing out the rear proportioning valve for one that is adjustable will solve your problem forever.

If the braking bias is that pronounced that changing diameter of the tire is enough to cause this problem, I would suggest you've got a bit of a beast on your hands in any wet weather driving. Any serious braking event where you are not in a near perfect straight alignment could cause you to swap ends very quickly on wet pavement.

Until you get it sorted so you're confident with the results, please use more than normal caution driving in the wet.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Dec 5, 2015)

BruSan said:


> That's good info to know.
> 
> Does anyone know if this vehicle has self adjusting rear shoes that will ratchet the adjuster screw if brakes are applied firmly while backing up?
> 
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   Yeah it has the reverse brake adjust feature.
 That was one of the first things I recommended he try.


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## tyroneweaver (Dec 26, 2015)

strollingbones said:


> are the front and back tires different sizes?


There may be more truth to this then seems. Put your wifes sewing tape measure around the circumference. Could be off.
Just cause they say that size, they could be off.


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