# China will fly military jets over Taiwan itself, dare Taiwan to fire on them



## Tom Paine 1949 (Sep 23, 2021)

Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”

PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times

The relative economic weight of China in the world is not increasing as rapidly as before, and China has no desire or illusions that it can “conquer the world.” But it _will_  fight to unite “One China,” as they now feel the U.S. is using Taiwan against them, forcing Taiwan to stop selling them high tech computer chips, sending more ships to patrol the Taiwan Straight, selling more arms to Taiwan, etc.

The  negotiations to allow the return to China of Huawei’s CFO must be settled quickly.  The U.S. and Congress should stop what I think is irresponsible encouragement of Taiwanese hopes that the U.S. will save them (it won’t and can’t). We must not allow a situation develop where we “fight China to the last Taiwanese.”


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## Moonglow (Sep 23, 2021)

China has been doing flyovers with fighter jets steadily for the last two years.


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## White 6 (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...


I don't see Taiwan engaging that attack, unless they are actually physically attacked, already.  If physically attacked, I suspect they would defend in any way they can.


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## MisterBeale (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...


Wow Tom.

I never knew you were a CCP propagandist.

I can't really believe that the DNC or the Biden admin supports the position of the editorial of this Global Times.

Surely this is why Japan and Australia have moved closer into the orbit of the US.

. .  I don't think there will be any "quick," resolution.

Pushing for it, with all the international intrigue and espionage, with all the deep state interests involved?  Donald Trump would have a better shot at reascending to the oval office.



. . . in fact, maybe if the Chi-Coms hadn't helped strip him of his office, they wouldn't be in such a sorry state now. . . 

But honestly, that is what the Anglo-American alliance wanted from the get-go, that is what they always want. . . war war war.  If you had wanted to avoid it, maybe you shouldn't have stepped in it.











						Chinese envoy to Canada visits detained Huawei CFO, urges Ottawa to correct 'mistake'
					

China's new ambassador to Canada visited a senior Huawei Technologies Co Ltd official who is fighting extradition to the United States and urged Ottawa to release her, the embassy said on Friday.  Relations between Canada and China turned icy a year ago, after Vancouver police detained Huawei...




					ca.news.yahoo.com
				












						How Huawei planned international robot espionage via email | Engadget
					

Huawei began building its own phone-testing system, xDeviceRobot, in early 2012.




					www.engadget.com


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## MisterBeale (Sep 24, 2021)

White 6 said:


> I don't see Taiwan engaging that attack, unless they are actually physically attacked, already.  If physically attacked, I suspect they would defend in any way they can.


The Australians, the Japanese, the Americans, the South Koreans and the Taiwanese are just suppose to roll over while the Chinese commit industrial espionage, black mail the global corporations and banking institutions, infiltrate & corrupt international organizations and if anyone should happen to say boo about it, and the CCP decides to start getting physically aggressive, because folks notice that big tech is doing their bidding instead of standing with the liberal democracies, because they don't get their way, we are supposed to. . . 



What?  Roll over?


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## Colin norris (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...



And just what do you think you will do to stop it? Send an email to someone? 

There is no doubt America will join in if China  strikes Taiwan. As normal, they will try to invade china and be there for years, get thousands of soldiers killed then leave in defeat like they always do. 
It's the only thing they know.


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Sep 24, 2021)

Moonglow said:


> China has been doing flyovers with fighter jets steadily for the last two years.


Right. But these were never flyovers of the island itself, only of waters around Taiwan. Flying fighters directly over the island, possibly even buzzing airports, would be something much more massively challenging, done in a context where China was ready to massively retaliate if Taiwan used one of their missiles to shoot down a Chinese plane.

This is the future we may be headed toward. IMO very few Americans have truly realized that our own conduct on the Taiwan issue, and the direction of political developments on the island, is considered by the _other side_ as intolerable.


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## Deplorable Yankee (Sep 24, 2021)

Shoot em down ...arm the population then give the mainland the finger and tell em come n get it 

We're not coming to save anyone


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## Peace (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...



Why should Taiwan be forced to join a country that they see as their enemy?

What about the right of those people on that tiny little Island?

I have read many of your thread and all of them have been Pro-Chinese and never once have you stood for the little guy that does not want to be part of that worthless nation, and I wonder why?


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## Peace (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Right. But these were never flyovers of the island itself, only of waters around Taiwan. Flying fighters directly over the island, possibly even buzzing airports, would be something much more massively challenging, done in a context where China was ready to massively retaliate if Taiwan used one of their missiles to shoot down a Chinese plane.
> 
> This is the future we may be headed toward. IMO very few Americans have truly realized that our own conduct on the Taiwan issue, and the direction of political developments on the island, is considered by the _other side_ as intolerable.


And you don’t consider the other side truly has no right to that Island either seeing the people of that tiny Island do not want to be part of China.

Taiwan has every right to defend itself against any aggression by China or any other nation and if China illegally enters Taiwan airspace then Taiwan has every right to defend herself and it people.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...






...and don't forget to say that "The  negotiations to allow the return to China of Huawei’s CFO must be settled quickly...."


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Sep 24, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Why should Taiwan be forced to join a country that they see as their enemy?
> What about the right of those people on that tiny little Island?


This is not a question of what you or I think is morally right, or what China _should _ do. You and I can talk ourselves blue about how China should be, unlike us, paragons of virtue.

China is what it is, a highly authoritarian state that — in the face of our opposition — is determined to make real its “One China” policy.

Nobody gives a crap about what you or I think “should” happen in Afghanistan either. The point is not to blunder into another, much bigger, much more dangerous war we cannot win and which would not serve our interests (or those of Taiwan’s people).

The U.S. only has the power to alter its own policy toward these events. We have no more ability to effect China’s actions than we could Russia’s in Crimea, where — by the way — we “ignored the right of those people on that tiny island” to self-determination, as they overwhelmingly rejected being forced to be a part of the Ukraine after the elected government in Kiev was overthrown.

Whether we or the Taiwanese like it or not the Chinese people on the Mainland seem united behind their leaders on this question. The UN does not recognize that Taiwan is independent, so there is little legal basis for our intervention in this matter (not that this has prevented us in the past from invading countries half way around the world almost at will).

If we want to prevent developments from continuing to evolve towards war, we _may _be able to prevent it, to have things calm down and return to the previous status quo — but this requires us to stop our blustering, to stop encouraging the independence forces on the island in their belief that we will save them. I have indicated some measures we could and I believe should take.


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## Peace (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> This is not a question of what you or I think is morally right, or what China _should _ do. You and I can talk ourselves blue about how China should be, unlike us, paragons of virtue.
> 
> China is what it is, a highly authoritarian state that — in the face of our opposition — is determined to make real its “One China” policy.
> 
> ...



So my opinion does not matter but your opinion only matters is what you are saying because you believe we as a World should bend over and take what China gives us and if not we should expect war with China, is that your point you little Chinese Bot of a Troll?

I can give a rat ass what China want and will say again Taiwan is not theirs and the people of Taiwan should have a say and because you believe they shouldn’t is not my problem but yours!

So don’t tell someone they can’t have any opinion on the matter when it is you giving your worthless opinion in favor of China expanding it territory in regions they are not wanted and if it is War China wants then let do it because some or later it will happen!

China will go for South Korea, Japan, Australia and you will say “ well it is their right “ because you kiss the ass of China!


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## Mac-7 (Sep 24, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> We must not allow a situation develop where we “fight China to the last Taiwanese.”


The Taiwanese people have made it clear that they dont want to be under communist chinese rule

China took Tibet which doesnt belong to them and they are demanding all the south china sea which is not theirs either

Appeasing the communists is not the way to avoid war

Free nations led by America standing together with strength is the only way to contain china


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## White 6 (Sep 24, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> The Australians, the Japanese, the Americans, the South Koreans and the Taiwanese are just suppose to roll over while the Chinese commit industrial espionage, black mail the global corporations and banking institutions, infiltrate & corrupt international organizations and if anyone should happen to say boo about it, and the CCP decides to start getting physically aggressive, because folks notice that big tech is doing their bidding instead of standing with the liberal democracies, because they don't get their way, we are supposed to. . .
> 
> 
> 
> What?  Roll over?


Very melodramatic assessment of policies by the western world designed to avoid war, when there has not been over attacks of war.


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## MisterBeale (Sep 24, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Very melodramatic assessment of policies by the western world designed to avoid war, when there has not been over attacks of war.


The liberal democratic policies of the West have always been designed to push their rivals to make the first overt attacks into provoking a war.  This has been their modus operandi since the founding of the United States.


. . . and lacking that, the oligarchs have been know to even manufacture evidence of such behavior.


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## Likkmee (Sep 24, 2021)

MAN. Skeery stuff !
I'd just sink their boats and Nuke 3 gorges damn...or Georges. Whatever.
GHW,GW and GP is what they're slanged as.
Can I apply in Linked On for a job as a Taiwan commandant ?
I promise to wear a mask. Made in USA ! ( with imported materials and packaging)


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## White 6 (Sep 24, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> The liberal democratic policies of the West have always been designed to push their rivals to make the first overt attacks into provoking a war.  This has been their modus operandi since the founding of the United States.
> 
> 
> . . . and lacking that, the oligarchs have been know to even manufacture evidence of such behavior.


Move back to Russia if you don't like it away from the St Petersberg troll farm.


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## ESay (Sep 25, 2021)

Some countries should re-evaluate their stance toward Taiwan. Taiwan should be recognised as a sovereign nation.


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Sep 25, 2021)

The release of Huawei CFO Meng Wenzhou and her return to China after almost three years of detainment in Canada at the request of the U.S. (and the subsequent release of two Canadian nationals) is a good sign. Her seizure and the charges against her were clearly political and outrageous in nature.

This  detainment had no positive results whatever. It  enraged the Chinese people and leadership, discredited the U.S., and destroyed what little trust remained toward the U.S.A. in Beijing.  It was an abusive act of over-reach carried out by an almost lawless Trump Administration. Her release shows that at least some communication channels remain open and some shred of intelligence exists in the Biden Administration.

Note that Meng Wanzhou’s immediate release was one of the three things I emphasized in my OP as _urgently_ needed  to lower tensions.  The drift to war, however, continues over Taiwan.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 25, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> So my opinion does not matter but your opinion only matters is what you are saying because you believe we as a World should bend over and take what China gives us and if not we should expect war with China, is that your point you little Chinese Bot of a Troll?
> 
> I can give a rat ass what China want and will say again Taiwan is not theirs and the people of Taiwan should have a say and because you believe they shouldn’t is not my problem but yours!
> 
> ...


*Asian Cowardice Is the Crime That Enables Chinese Gangsters*

Let the threatened countriesJapan, South Korea, North Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam, and Brunei form a defensive alliance without us.  They have more money and more potential soldiers than the incompetent Chinese.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 25, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...



OMG! Tom did you get a thrill up and down your leg??!!!


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 25, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> The release of Huawei CFO Meng Wenzhou and her return to China after almost three years of detainment in Canada at the request of the U.S. (and the subsequent release of two Canadian nationals) is a good sign. Her seizure and the charges against her were clearly political and outrageous in nature.
> 
> This  detainment had no positive results whatever. It  enraged the Chinese people and leadership, discredited the U.S., and destroyed what little trust remained toward the U.S.A. in Beijing.  It was an abusive act of over-reach carried out by an almost lawless Trump Administration. Her release shows that at least some communication channels remain open and some shred of intelligence exists in the Biden Administration.
> 
> Note that Meng Wanzhou’s immediate release was one of the three things I emphasized in my OP as _urgently_ needed  to lower tensions.  The drift to war, however, continues over Taiwan.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 25, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> The release of Huawei CFO Meng Wenzhou and her return to China after almost three years of detainment in Canada at the request of the U.S. (and the subsequent release of two Canadian nationals) is a good sign. Her seizure and the charges against her were clearly political and outrageous in nature.
> 
> This  detainment had no positive results whatever. It  enraged the Chinese people and leadership, discredited the U.S., and destroyed what little trust remained toward the U.S.A. in Beijing.  It was an abusive act of over-reach carried out by an almost lawless Trump Administration. Her release shows that at least some communication channels remain open and some shred of intelligence exists in the Biden Administration.
> 
> Note that Meng Wanzhou’s immediate release was one of the three things I emphasized in my OP as _urgently_ needed  to lower tensions.  The drift to war, however, continues over Taiwan.










Tom at work


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Sep 25, 2021)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Let the threatened countriesJapan, South Korea, North Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam, and Brunei form a defensive alliance without us. They have more money and more potential soldiers than the incompetent Chinese.


For your information, North Korea will not join with South Korea and Japan against China. Even _South_ Korea will not join such an alliance with Japan.


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Sep 25, 2021)

Those who want a deeper discussion of China and of the misunderstandings that are leading our two nations to war over Taiwan should read the rich discussion we had 7 months ago:






						CDZ - The growing peril of war with China over Taiwan
					

This article has been adapted from a lecture delivered by experienced U.S. Ambassador and Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs from 1993-94 — Chas Freeman — to the Committee for the Republic.  It discusses the drift toward war over Taiwan and carefully reviews the...



					www.usmessageboard.com


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## ESay (Sep 25, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Even _South_ Korea will not join such an alliance with Japan


 It may be that formally it won't. But it will cooperate closely with this alliance. As well as Vietnam.


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## DudleySmith (Sep 26, 2021)

No worries.The Democrats are a  Red Chinese franchise and good ole Uncle Joe will support them in their imperial dreams, and the Right will do what they always do when dictators start their imperial expansions, hide under their beds and claim it's 'none of our business' and kill off strengthening our military. The military's only job in the U.S. is to kill uppity proles, according to the right wingers. The left wingers thinks the military is for giving trannies free sex changes.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 27, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> For your information, North Korea will not join with South Korea and Japan against China. Even _South_ Korea will not join such an alliance with Japan.


*Peking, Duck!*

That's the alliance Trump was working on with Kim Jong Un.  You think he would have announced it and let the Chinese know they were being surrounded?

North Korea has nukes.  Japan has nukes ready.  Brunei has loads of oil money from its offshore fields, which China wants to take.  Vietnam has always hated the Chinese.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 27, 2021)

ESay said:


> It may be that formally it won't. But it will cooperate closely with this alliance. As well as Vietnam.


*Pyongyang Goes Yin; Pyongyang Goes Yang*

Google "Kim Jong-un."  His sister has become a Seoul Sista.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 27, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> No worries.The Democrats are a  Red Chinese franchise and good ole Uncle Joe will support them in their imperial dreams, and the Right will do what they always do when dictators start their imperial expansions, hide under their beds and claim it's 'none of our business' and kill off strengthening our military. The military's only job in the U.S. is to kill uppity proles, according to the right wingers. The left wingers thinks the military is for giving trannies free sex changes.


*USMC:  Uncle Sam's Misguided Children*

Billygoat Clinton ordered the Marines to stop wearing dress blues and start wearing blue dresses.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 27, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...



You and Donald H


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## Donald H (Sep 27, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> For your information, North Korea will not join with South Korea and Japan against China. Even _South_ Korea will not join such an alliance with Japan.


Tom! I haven't seen you posting for a while.

Unfortunately there is little hope of a sane conversation on this board and the moderators seem to have given up on applying the rules.

No, of course NK will not leave China's side. The depth of the alliance with  China is being appreciated for what it is. 

I suspect that if we knew the truth, we would know that China worked with NK to arm them with nuclear weapons. 

It's such a natural counter balance to the US arming the Zionist apartheid regime.


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## Donald H (Sep 27, 2021)

CrusaderFrank said:


> You and Donald H


China may assert it's position that Taiwan is theirs and so it could safely fly over.
It's not a move that the US would dare oppose directly.

We're going to see a lot more brinkmanship from China now, as it catches up with US efforts at the same.

Biden and Xi are talking covertly out of necessity. China will reward Biden for cooperation.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 27, 2021)

Donald H said:


> China may assert it's position that Taiwan is theirs and so it could safely fly over.
> It's not a move that the US would dare oppose directly.
> 
> We're going to see a lot more brinkmanship from China now, as it catches up with US efforts at the same.
> ...



China is self destructing and they want to pull the world down around 

Reward Biden LOL

Another $1 billion equity fund?


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## DudleySmith (Sep 27, 2021)

CrusaderFrank said:


> China is self destructing and they want to pull the world down around
> 
> Reward Biden LOL
> 
> Another $1 billion equity fund?



They have all that Hunter Biden porn as leverage.


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## DudleySmith (Sep 27, 2021)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *USMC:  Uncle Sam's Misguided Children*
> 
> Billygoat Clinton ordered the Marines to stop wearing dress blues and start wearing blue dresses.



Yes. Don't Ask Don't Tell worked out so well for the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church's tolerance for faggots it's only 'logical' Democrats would think doing it for the military and public school staffs would be a great idea.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 5, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *Peking, Duck!*
> 
> That's the alliance Trump was working on with Kim Jong Un.  You think he would have announced it and let the Chinese know they were being surrounded?
> 
> North Korea has nukes.  *Japan has nukes ready.*  Brunei has loads of oil money from its offshore fields, which China wants to take.  Vietnam has always hated the Chinese.



Showing your ignorance again?  The Japanese didn't like it when conventional aircraft carriers could have possible carried nuclear weapons. Things really hit the fan when we based a nuclear-powered carrier there!  They are extremely averse to nukes.  Anyone know why?


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## justoffal (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Right. But these were never flyovers of the island itself, only of waters around Taiwan. Flying fighters directly over the island, possibly even buzzing airports, would be something much more massively challenging, done in a context where China was ready to massively retaliate if Taiwan used one of their missiles to shoot down a Chinese plane.
> 
> This is the future we may be headed toward. IMO very few Americans have truly realized that our own conduct on the Taiwan issue, and the direction of political developments on the island, is considered by the _other side_ as intolerable.


China will take Taiwan....they are not going to wait much longer.

Jo


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## Mac-7 (Mar 6, 2022)

justoffal said:


> China will take Taiwan....they are not going to wait much longer.
> 
> Jo


This would be the perfect time with a weak president and russia causing trouble in ukraine


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Mar 6, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> This would be the perfect time with a weak president and russia causing trouble in ukraine



President Biden is not “weak,” and his administration has shown a great deal of savvy and competence in confronting Putin’s stupid, brutal and bloody adventure in invading and trying to overturn the government of Ukraine.

I have long opposed NATO’s rapid expansion plans and feared the West was “setting up” Ukraine to become a devastated battle zone, another “proxy war” in our geo-political fight against Russia. I also opposed our government’s support of the hard nationalist Ukrainian forces that overthrew the *democratically elected* government of Ukraine in the “Maidan Revolution.”

But as inadvisable as that “Revolution” was in my opinion, as much as I preferred that “Greater Ukraine” (including Crimea) remain a “neutral” country trading with Russia and the West, I also believe every supporter of democratic rights must now oppose dictator Putin’s mad and bloody invasion, which endangers world peace (and will probably fail in its aims). NATO troops should stay out of this fight, and a NATO-enforced “no-fly” zone would also be a terribly dangerous idea, only strengthening dictator Putin’s case before his own people.

In Taiwan, the U.S. is now setting up the Taiwanese for a similar fate, as I have made clear. However, the very different balance of forces there, the legal situation that Taiwan is unrecognized by the U.S. or the UN, and many other factors as well, make it urgent that we not abandon our long-standing policy to try to keep Taiwan as a “neutral” trading partner of both sides, an essentially autonomous part of “One China” — for as long as possible.

The war-mongering tweets and proposals of Republicans like Mike Pompeo to arm Taiwan to the hilt and recognize its independence will not help preserve peace or the Taiwan status quo — which best serves both our present interests and Taiwan’s real interests as well.









						Pompeo tweets, risks war with China over Taiwan - Responsible Statecraft
					

Such chirping from the former secretary of state, who has obvious political ambitions, is reckless, irresponsible and self-serving.




					responsiblestatecraft.org


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## Mac-7 (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> In Taiwan, the U.S. is now setting up the Taiwanese for a similar fate, as I have made clear.


Do you really think the Taiwanese people want to lose their freedom to a britsl dictatorship in peking?

the US is not “setting up” Taiwan for anything

Taiwan desperately wants to be free and they are looking for help wherever they can find it


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## Mac-7 (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 

and another thing while we are on the subject, freedom for Taiwan, Japan and S Korea is in America’s best interest also


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## Donald H (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> President Biden is not “weak,” and his administration has shown a great deal of savvy and competence in confronting Putin’s stupid, brutal and bloody adventure in invading and trying to overturn the government of Ukraine.


You call it Putin's stupid, brutal and bloody adventure, but you go on to say in your next paragraph:


Tom Paine 1949 said:


> I have long opposed *NATO’s rapid expansion* plans and feared the* West was “setting up” Ukraine* to become a devastated battle zone, another* “proxy war” in our geo-political fight against Russia.* I also opposed our government’s support of the hard nationalist Ukrainian forces that overthrew the *democratically elected* government of Ukraine in the “Maidan Revolution.”


And then strangely, you show that you're quite informed on the facts? I've bolded some of your words, mostly because I need not repeat those words.

Putin's adventure is brutal and bloody but an alternative has been offered to the Ukraine every step of the way. And yes, it could become 'stupid' too.

Most important in what you say Tom, is that you are aware it's not Zelensky's war in which he's calling the shots, it's America's war against Russia.

So if nothinig else can come of this Tom, thank you  for the break from the  spamming and childish nonsense for at least a few minutes.

edit: I've stopped short of your comments on China for now for reasons of not causing confusion on this thread.


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## Donald H (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> In Taiwan, the U.S. is now setting up the Taiwanese for a similar fate, as I have made clear. However, the very different balance of forces there, the legal situation that Taiwan is unrecognized by the U.S. or the UN, and many other factors as well, make it urgent that we not abandon our long-standing policy to try to keep Taiwan as a “neutral” trading partner of both sides, an essentially autonomous part of “One China” — for as long as possible.
> 
> The war-mongering tweets and proposals of Republicans like Mike Pompeo to arm Taiwan to the hilt and recognize its independence will not help preserve peace or the Taiwan status quo — which best serves both our present interests and Taiwan’s real interests as well.
> 
> ...


Your comments on Taiwan and China. The future depends on America's acceptance of the status quo in Taiwan. *Very much the same as the situation in the Crimea in my opinion. A situatiion in which both sides, both America and China can be content with the status quo. 

But of course, both sides may make moves to upset the status quo. In my opinion it won't be upset by China unless it's provoked by America. And frankly fwiw, that has already started happening.

China has always taken the position of it being a bloodless process in which Taiwan would eventually choose alliance with China. All the evidence to date is indicating that will remain the case, unless there is a threat escalated by America.

It's worth mentioning that in both situations, America is again the aggressor. I don't see how that can be counterspun with propaganda. However, I'm always interested in a different POV if it's expressed sanely and  politely, without undue spamming and childish nonsense. I'm confident that you are at least capable of doing that.

edit: apologies for the bold, Html sometimes doesn't work for me here.*


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> President Biden is not “weak,” and his administration has shown a great deal of savvy and competence in confronting Putin’s stupid, brutal and bloody adventure in invading and trying to overturn the government of Ukraine.
> 
> I have long opposed NATO’s rapid expansion plans and feared the West was “setting up” Ukraine to become a devastated battle zone, another “proxy war” in our geo-political fight against Russia. I also opposed our government’s support of the hard nationalist Ukrainian forces that overthrew the *democratically elected* government of Ukraine in the “Maidan Revolution.”
> 
> ...


You just proved once again that you know nothing.


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Mar 6, 2022)

> “You just proved once again that you know nothing.”


Admiral, you have said _nothing_  concrete to counter any of my arguments, which are simply based on political reality and deep knowledge of Chinese society … not on liberal idealist illusions.

I am as opposed as the next man to the authoritarian character of Chinese society, dominated today by XiJingping as head of the Communist Party. I do not support that authoritarian system … which is even less democratic than Putin’s Russia.

I really don’t know what you are talking about.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Admiral, you have said _nothing_  concrete to counter any of my arguments, which are simply based on political reality and deep knowledge of Chinese society … not on liberal idealist illusions.
> 
> I am as opposed as the next man to the authoritarian character of Chinese society, dominated today by XiJingping as head of the Communist Party. I do not support that authoritarian system … which is even less democratic than Putin’s Russia.
> 
> I really don’t know what you are talking about.


How will China destroying the Taiwanese  "recognize its independence will not help preserve peace or the Taiwan status quo — which best serves both our present interests and Taiwan’s real interests as well."

You want to 'splain that Lucy?


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Mar 6, 2022)

I can’t even understand your question. Nobody wants China to “destroy Taiwan.” Try to speak more clearly and respond to what I do say, OK?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> I can’t even understand your question. Nobody wants China to “destroy Taiwan.” Try to speak more clearly and respond to what I do say, OK?


The Chinese apparently do!  I just don't think they re capable, flying 1950's era bombers that have not been upgraded and fighters that have never proven themselves to be worth a shit.  Their amphibious assault criteria is too little to support an invasion.  Their airborne corps is unproven and would likely be dead before they hit the ground as their transports would be shot out the sky, which is another shortage the Chinese have.


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## toobfreak (Mar 6, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> President Biden is not “weak,”



Neither is garlic, but that doesn't mean a gotta like him!


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## Ringo (Mar 31, 2022)




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## frigidweirdo (Mar 31, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Recent articles in the _Global Times_ have strongly suggested  the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”
> 
> PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times
> 
> ...



Thing is right now, China must be looking at the Ukraine and thinking, "this is going to be harder than that". And China is less ready. China hasn't participated in combat since 1979 and then it got whipped by the Vietnamese, the Russians have been in Syria and have soldiers as mercenaries in other places.


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Mar 31, 2022)

I agree the Chinese leadership is watching carefully the U.S./Western response to Putin’s bloody and disastrous invasion of Ukraine. They have probably been surprised by the demonstrated weakness of the Russian military against Western-armed and financed Ukraine, and by the strength of Western sanctions against Russia. That old bastard Kissinger recently stated he didn’t believe China would act for another decade of so. But of course if the U.S acts — as Pompeo wants — to recognize Taiwan’s independence and turn it into a “porcupine,” the Chinese may act much sooner. As I said, they will probably not opt for a full invasion if they feel they do need to act militarily.

China’s biggest fear may be that Putin is overthrown and the huge Russian state collapses again and breaks apart under Western pressure. I think this is actually a real possibility, given the truly abysmal state of Russian society and centrifugal forces operating on its regional bureaucracies. I don’t think this is the most likely result, however.


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## PoliticalChic (Apr 4, 2022)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> I agree the Chinese leadership is watching carefully the U.S./Western response to Putin’s bloody and disastrous invasion of Ukraine. They have probably been surprised by the demonstrated weakness of the Russian military against Western-armed and financed Ukraine, and by the strength of Western sanctions against Russia. That old bastard Kissinger recently stated he didn’t believe China would act for another decade of so. But of course if the U.S acts — as Pompeo wants — to recognize Taiwan’s independence and turn it into a “porcupine,” the Chinese may act much sooner. As I said, they will probably not opt for a full invasion if they feel they do need to act militarily.
> 
> China’s biggest fear may be that Putin is overthrown and the huge Russian state collapses again and breaks apart under Western pressure. I think this is actually a real possibility, given the truly abysmal state of Russian society and centrifugal forces operating on its regional bureaucracies. I don’t think this is the most likely result, however.



What struck fear in the hearts of those Chinese decision makers was the unanimity of the world in terms of trade and finance vis-a -vis Russia.
Sanctions and cutting ties.

No nation in the world needs foreign trade more than China.

It just may have dissuaded them from invading Taiwan......for now.


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## Tom Paine 1949 (Apr 4, 2022)

Yes, Chinese decision makers need and want foreign trade, especially resources like fossil fuels. But there was only near “unanimity of the world in terms of trade and finance vis-a -vis Russia” … in the developed West. The two most populous nations in the world, India and China, the Middle East Shiekdoms too, are not onboard with Russia sanctions. Nobody will be on board with significant U.S. sanctioning of China unless it invades Taiwan. Russia and China may be driven into each other’s arms economically by this horrible and dangerous war, at least temporarily.


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## Ringo (Apr 7, 2022)

BEIJING, April 7. / China strongly opposes any form of official contacts between the United States and Taiwan. This was stated at a briefing on Thursday by Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian, commenting on the information about the possible visit of the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the US Congress Nancy Pelosi to Taiwan.

"The Chinese side strongly opposes any form of official contacts between the United States and Taiwan," he said.

As the diplomat pointed out, if Pelosi visits Taiwan, it will seriously violate the principle of "one China" and the provisions of the three Sino-American joint communiques, cause serious damage to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the People's Republic of China, strike at the political basis of bilateral relations and send a false signal to separatist forces advocating "Taiwan independence."

"The Chinese side expresses a strong protest in this regard and has already made a strict presentation to the American side," the diplomat said.

"The American side must strictly adhere to the one China principle and the provisions of the three Sino-American joint communiques, immediately cancel Pelosi's plan to visit Taiwan, cease official contacts with Taiwan, and take real actions to fulfill its promise not to support Taiwan's independence," he said.

"If the American side stands its ground, the Chinese side will certainly take decisive measures to protect its sovereignty and territorial integrity," the diplomat continued. As he pointed out, the United States will be responsible for all possible consequences.

As reported on Thursday by the Japanese channel Fuji TV, the speaker of the lower house of the US Congress Nancy Pelosi intends to visit Taiwan in the coming days. According to the channel's sources, Pelosi intends to arrive in Japan on April 8, where she will hold a meeting with Prime Minister Fumio Kishida. After that, she plans to visit Taiwan. It is emphasized that this will be the first visit to Taiwan by the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the US Congress in the last 25 years.


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## Persuader (Aug 1, 2022)

PoliticalChic said:


> What struck fear in the hearts of those Chinese decision makers was the unanimity of the world in terms of trade and finance vis-a -vis Russia.
> Sanctions and cutting ties.
> 
> No nation in the world needs foreign trade more than China.
> ...


I do not think China is ready to invade at this point.

I think they are ready for a limited military option.......as in.....fly directly over the Island of Taiwan daring Taiwan to do something about it.

What would you do if you were in Taiwans place.....shoot down a Chinese Plane knowing the consequences of that would not be pretty but could be and most likely would be catastrophic for Taiwan.... as in it would provoke China to attack them...not as in an invasion but as in the destruction of the Taiwan air force and possible bombing and missle strikes on Taiwan..very plausible for China to do that.

Would America under biden be willing to rise to the occasion....more likely you would see a non response as in what happened in Ukraine.

Though we must remember though  biden is very weak and indecisive....yet his handlers may force him to do something of at least a limited nature.....both China and USA would want to keep the military stuff limited in nature aka you shoot down some of my planes....I shoot down some of yours and then we talk.

No one wants a all out nuclear war....but China is obsessed with Taiwan and will one way or the other do what they think needs to be done to gain control of Taiwan.

Most do not realize how ruthless the Chinese Communist Party can be.....those who have read some history of China do know....they have done absolutely horrendous things to their own people.....much worse than what Hitler did to the Jews.

........if they are willing to do such horrendous things to their own people....consider what they might do to foreign nations.

I think it is much too late to try and prevent China from taking Taiwan....the time for that passed long ago....we kicked the can down the road and now we are essentialy in an untenable position.

I think the best we can hope for is to do what the U.K did in regards to Hong Kong.....extract a ot of promises from them and then let them take control of Taiwan....by the time they renege on their promises most folks will have forgotten about the whole thing.

Unfortunately....ceding Taiwan will not stop the CCP....but it would buy us some time.....time we need to revamp our military, time to figure out how to stop their  hypersonic missles, time for us to build more and better missles ....especially hypersonic missles......we lag behind both China and russia in regards to hypersonic missles................and prepare for the ultimate show down.

One of the best things we can do now....was suggested by of all people hillary clinton....build multiple crusise missle bases in the pacific within striking range of China....and makes these bases as resistant as possible to nukes.....arm the missles with nuclear warheads that are not radioactive I forget the term for them at the moment....that way if we have to use nukes we will not contaminate the world with radioactivity......The 'Neutron bomb' is what I was trying to think of.

and we can hope that China will one day settle down and not be consumed with the desire to dominate the world......wishful thinking....but it might calm some nerves.


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## PoliticalChic (Aug 2, 2022)

Persuader said:


> I do not think China is ready to invade at this point.
> 
> I think they are ready for a limited military option.......as in.....fly directly over the Island of Taiwan daring Taiwan to do something about it.
> 
> ...



No, that is not China's _raison d'être, simply being one among many.




_
Worth reading.


“…the hope of producing a benign People’s Republic of China utterly failed. *The Communist Party of China deceived the West into believing that its system and the Party-ruled People’s Liberation Army were peaceful and posed no threat. *In fact, these misguided policies produced the emergence of a twenty-first century evil empire even more dangerous than a Cold War version of the Soviet Union.”
Bill Gertz, “Deceiving The Sky”




The Democrats will not protect American and the world from China.

"Under Obama, American security was damaged by ignoring and then covering up China's massive theft of American technology. Abroad, inaction by Obama facilitated the Chinese domination over the strategic South China Sea. After claiming 3,200 acres of new islands, China deployed advanced anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles on the island in what the CIA described as China's Crimea, a stealth take-over similar to the Russian annexation of Ukraine's peninsula in 2014."
*Bill Gertz, “**Deceiving the Sky: Inside Communist China's Drive for Global Supremacy**,” p. 6*


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## Moonglow (Aug 2, 2022)

PoliticalChic said:


> No, that is not China's _raison d'être, simply being one among many.
> 
> View attachment 677183_
> Worth reading.
> ...


There is not a government on the planet that doesn't have agressive stance because they are humans and humans always scheme.


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## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2022)

Moonglow said:


> There is not a government on the planet that doesn't have agressive stance because they are humans and humans always scheme.


meh.

IMO, tribal governments inside the US are mostly passive.


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## Moonglow (Aug 2, 2022)

MisterBeale said:


> meh.
> 
> IMO, tribal governments inside the US are mostly passive.


Yeah, unless they are going after fake tribal members or kicking out missionaries. They have been subjugated and beaten down so they know their place.


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## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2022)




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