# Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?



## rdean

Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?


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## Warrior102

You can't buy your way out of dumb, RDean, no matter how much money is thrown at you. 

School districts had total expenditures of approximately $596.6 billion in 2007&#8211;08, including about $506.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, nearly $65.8 billion was spent on capital outlay, almost $15.7 billion on interest payments on debt, and $8.3 billion on other programs (including programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education). 

After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment at public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again after 1992&#8211;93. There was an increase of 37 percent from 1980&#8211;81 to 1990&#8211;91; a change of less than 1 percent from 1990&#8211;91 to 1994&#8211;95 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 1992&#8211;93); and an increase of 32 percent from 1994&#8211;95 to 2007&#8211;08. In 2007&#8211;08, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $10,297 in unadjusted dollars. In 2007&#8211;08, some 55 percent of students in public schools were transported at public expense at a cost of $854 per pupil transported, also in unadjusted dollars.

Money doesn't seem to be working. 

Start with teaching your children some values at home


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## Jarhead

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



who is fighting education?
Who is fighting science?

Or are you falling for the rhetoric.

yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.


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## ClosedCaption

I think Warrior is a auto response bot.  No matter the topic he'll reply the same way


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## Oddball

Without strawmen, what kind of posting opportunities would be available for rderp?


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## The Rabbi

Jarhead said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
Click to expand...


Only 6% of scientists are Republicans.  Fact!


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## Warrior102

ClosedCaption said:


> I think Warrior is a auto response bot.  No matter the topic he'll reply the same way



You can't buy your way out of dumb, RDean, no matter how much money is thrown at you. 

School districts had total expenditures of approximately $596.6 billion in 200708, including about $506.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, nearly $65.8 billion was spent on capital outlay, almost $15.7 billion on interest payments on debt, and $8.3 billion on other programs (including programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education). 

After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment at public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again after 199293. There was an increase of 37 percent from 198081 to 199091; a change of less than 1 percent from 199091 to 199495 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 199293); and an increase of 32 percent from 199495 to 200708. In 200708, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $10,297 in unadjusted dollars. In 200708, some 55 percent of students in public schools were transported at public expense at a cost of $854 per pupil transported, also in unadjusted dollars.

Money doesn't seem to be working. 

Start with teaching your children some values at home


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## Douger

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?


Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
The murkin dream.


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## Warrior102

Douger said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
> The murkin dream.
Click to expand...


Posters on Internet forums named "Douger," ...


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## The Rabbi

Douger said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
> The murkin dream.
Click to expand...


No one asked for your resume, Bouger.


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## Remodeling Maidiac

Democrats lost last night, let's change the subject.


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## Jarhead

ClosedCaption said:


> I think Warrior is a auto response bot.  No matter the topic he'll reply the same way



his response was informative and directly addresses the topic at hand.
Why do you dismiss it with criticism and without debate?


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## Jarhead

The Rabbi said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only 6% of scientists are Republicans.  Fact!
Click to expand...


so if you believe in smaller government and personal responsibility, then you dont believe in science?


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## ClosedCaption

Jarhead said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Warrior is a auto response bot.  No matter the topic he'll reply the same way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> his response was informative and directly addresses the topic at hand.
> Why do you dismiss it with criticism and without debate?
Click to expand...


Uh, wheres the part where he talks about what jobs would be available?  All I see is talk about another topic not brought up by the OP.


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## Jarhead

ClosedCaption said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Warrior is a auto response bot.  No matter the topic he'll reply the same way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> his response was informative and directly addresses the topic at hand.
> Why do you dismiss it with criticism and without debate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uh, wheres the part where he talks about what jobs would be available?  All I see is talk about another topic not brought up by the OP.
Click to expand...


Oh. Sorry. I thought you had the ability to comprehend what people are saying. I did not know you see things as black and white.

So in an effort to assist you, let me explain..

rdean asked the question based on the fact that some people want to cut spending on education. I see why you misunderstood...seeing as no one wants to eliminate spending on education, just cut the spending....

But anyway....in response to that claim, Warrior explained why some feel the need to cut spending on education.

So again, to those of us that 8understand why people ask questions, Warrior answered with a very informative and accurate response.

I hope that helps.


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## DontBeStupid

Jarhead said:


> rdean asked the question based on the fact that some people want to cut spending on education.



Uhm, if he wanted to ask about cuts in spending for education, I think he would have asked about cuts in spending for education. There are many in this country waging a war on Education as a concept, and Science in particular. Trying to re-write history text books or trying to force Intelligent Design into schools as hard science, has nothing to do with spending cuts.

So why do it?


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## Remodeling Maidiac

Why are you guys falling into this diversion? 

This has nothing to do with anything that's currently going on. It's obvious that dean can't wrap is little mind around real issues.


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## Jarhead

DontBeStupid said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> rdean asked the question based on the fact that some people want to cut spending on education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, if he wanted to ask about cuts in spending for education, I think he would have asked about cuts in spending for education. There are many in this country waging a war on Education as a concept, and Science in particular. Trying to re-write history text books or trying to force Intelligent Design into schools as hard science, has nothing to do with spending cuts.
> 
> So why do it?
Click to expand...


there are many?

I dont think many.

As a mater of fact, so few that it is not even on the radar as a news topic.

I did not realize that rdean wants to address the few that have no impact on any of us.

Especially with so many more pressing issues.


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## DontBeStupid

Grampa Murked U said:


> Why are you guys falling into this diversion?
> 
> This has nothing to do with anything that's currently going on. It's obvious that dean can't wrap is little mind around real issues.



A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?

Wow.


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## The Rabbi

Jarhead said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only 6% of scientists are Republicans.  Fact!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so if you believe in smaller government and personal responsibility, then you dont believe in science?
Click to expand...


According to RDean, yes!


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## Remodeling Maidiac

DontBeStupid said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you guys falling into this diversion?
> 
> This has nothing to do with anything that's currently going on. It's obvious that dean can't wrap is little mind around real issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?
> 
> Wow.
Click to expand...


Dean doesn't care about discussing jobs and you know it. 

This thread isn't about jobs. If it was we would be discussing how jobs get created. 

This thread is about Dean getting under the skin of those he dislikes. Nothing more. 

That fact that you can't see that is.....WOW


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## DontBeStupid

Jarhead said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> rdean asked the question based on the fact that some people want to cut spending on education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, if he wanted to ask about cuts in spending for education, I think he would have asked about cuts in spending for education. There are many in this country waging a war on Education as a concept, and Science in particular. Trying to re-write history text books or trying to force Intelligent Design into schools as hard science, has nothing to do with spending cuts.
> 
> So why do it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> there are many?
> 
> I dont think many.
Click to expand...


Off the top of my head:

Climate Change
Evolution
Stem Cell Research
American History

Have all come under attack in recent years. Not to mention the basic idea of Logic has pretty much been tossed out the window by anyone the Right. But not so much the specifics is what's the problem, but the fact that these attacks attack the process. 

For example, many "conservatives" like to attack the Theory of Evolution, saying "Well, it's just a theory. I have a theory too." They don't want to acknowledge that in the Scientific Community, a Theory has weight. It's been tested and has evidence supporting it. It's been upgraded from a Hypothesis (remember that word?). Calling "Intelligent Design" a "Theory" the same as the Theory of Evolution, is an attack on the Scientific Process.

If this keeps up, the Chinese will be inventing everything and we will be working for them.


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## syrenn

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?




ohh.. fighting education...

You mean like the dumb as rocks kids who drop out and could care less about an education or a job?

Do you mean fighting education in terms the parents who don't give a shit about helping their children and leave it all on the teachers to do the educating? 

Do you mean money being spent on sports programs instead of real education?

Do you mean the idea you don't need a job or education, welfare will take care of you?  

Do you mean that teachers being made into cops and not educators? 






Just something to think about dean. Not all jobs require an education.


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## Photonic

I just want to say this because it's absolutely true.

The less educated the society, the less they can compete on a global scale.

Education goes, the United States goes. Other countries will effortlessly pass us because we won't be able to remain ahead when we are so far behind.


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## DontBeStupid

syrenn said:


> Not all jobs require an education.



But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?


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## Texanmike

DontBeStupid said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you guys falling into this diversion?
> 
> This has nothing to do with anything that's currently going on. It's obvious that dean can't wrap is little mind around real issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?
> 
> Wow.
Click to expand...


The question was asked in a manner that it forces people to concede something that is not true. See if you follow this example.


 "With gay people wanting to force a homosexual lifestyle on heterosexuals why do support gay marriage?"

The first part of the question is not true.  By answering the question without addressing the conditional it appears that you are conceding the first part of the question. If you ask good questions then you will get good answers. If you ask rhetorical questions and implant half truth into the question then you must debate the merits of the question before you can argue the answer to the question.  Difficult to grasp?

Mike


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## Jarhead

Photonic said:


> I just want to say this because it's absolutely true.
> 
> The less educated the society, the less they can compete on a global scale.
> 
> Education goes, the United States goes. Other countries will effortlessly pass us because we won't be able to remain ahead when we are so far behind.



well...that is a given.

If we make it illegal to eat food, all will likely die.

But who wants to eliminate education?

I dont understand this thread at all.


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## Jarhead

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you guys falling into this diversion?
> 
> This has nothing to do with anything that's currently going on. It's obvious that dean can't wrap is little mind around real issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The question was asked in a manner that it forces people to concede something that is not true. See if you follow this example.
> 
> 
> "With gay people wanting to force a homosexual lifestyle on heterosexuals why do support gay marriage?"
> 
> The first part of the question is not true.  By answering the question without addressing the conditional it appears that you are conceding the first part of the question. If you ask good questions then you will get good answers. If you ask rhetorical questions and implant half truth into the question then you must debate the merits of the question before you can argue the answer to the question.  Difficult to grasp?
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


So I will start a new thread...

How will America survive if we make it illegal to eat...

I just dont get this thread at all....if it wasnt about what I assujmed it was (cutting education budgets)...then what the hell is the whole premise of the thread?


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## Jarhead

dontbestupid said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> not all jobs require an education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against education?
Click to expand...


who is fighting education??????????


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## High_Gravity

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



McDonalds and Churchs Chicken can always use more cooks.


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## syrenn

DontBeStupid said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all jobs require an education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
Click to expand...



I don't see anyone fighting against education.


What i see is parental apathy in motivating THEIR children to do better. There was a time when parents would fight tooth and nail that their children did better then they did in life. Now... no one cares. Children are given everything they want the instant they want it. Working hard for something is no longer something the parents or children grasp. 

So long as other countries are hungrier and more motivated then we are..... we will never get back on top. 

As far as i can see... there is no lack of jobs. The jobs that are there are full. There is a glut of educated people.


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## DontBeStupid

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you guys falling into this diversion?
> 
> This has nothing to do with anything that's currently going on. It's obvious that dean can't wrap is little mind around real issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The question was asked in a manner that it forces people to concede something that is not true. See if you follow this example.
> 
> 
> "With gay people wanting to force a homosexual lifestyle on heterosexuals why do support gay marriage?"
> 
> The first part of the question is not true.  By answering the question without addressing the conditional it appears that you are conceding the first part of the question. If you ask good questions then you will get good answers. If you ask rhetorical questions and implant half truth into the question then you must debate the merits of the question before you can argue the answer to the question.  Difficult to grasp?
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Not at all difficult to grasp. But I think you're debating something that is already proven. Clearly there are people in this country fighting against Education, and I'm not talking about funding. Without an Education, your job prospects are limited. That's a fact.

So the question is valid. What kind of jobs will be available?


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## syrenn

Jarhead said:


> So I will start a new thread...
> 
> How will America survive if we make it illegal to eat...
> 
> I just dont get this thread at all....if it wasnt about what I assujmed it was (cutting education budgets)...then what the hell is the whole premise of the thread?






What is to get...its an rdean thread.


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## Remodeling Maidiac

Jarhead said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to say this because it's absolutely true.
> 
> The less educated the society, the less they can compete on a global scale.
> 
> Education goes, the United States goes. Other countries will effortlessly pass us because we won't be able to remain ahead when we are so far behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well...that is a given.
> 
> If we make it illegal to eat food, all will likely die.
> 
> But who wants to eliminate education?
> 
> I dont understand this thread at all.
Click to expand...


Dean doesn't care if you understand it. He just wants to change the subject from the current events of the day. He wants the Democrats abstract failures to be ignored. 

Wake up people! 

Hell wasn't it obvious when he posed a bullshit question then never came back?

Wake up


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## Jarhead

syrenn said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all jobs require an education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
> 
> 
> What i see is parental apathy in motivating THEIR children to do better. There was a time when parents would fight tooth and nail that their children did better then they did in life. Now... no one cares. Children are given everything they want the instant they want it. Working hard for something is no longer something the parents or children grasp.
> 
> So long as other countries are hungrier and more motivated then we are..... we will never get back on top.
> 
> As far as i can see... there is no lack of jobs. The jobs that are there are full. There is a glut of educated people.
Click to expand...


yes...your last line is quite accurate.

technology is eliminating the jobs for the less educated.

Voice mail eliminates operators and receptionists
email eliminates mailroom personnel
CNC eliminates manual machinists

and in the meantime, more and more people are going to college.

SO now we have a large supply of college degreed people.


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## Jarhead

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question was asked in a manner that it forces people to concede something that is not true. See if you follow this example.
> 
> 
> "With gay people wanting to force a homosexual lifestyle on heterosexuals why do support gay marriage?"
> 
> The first part of the question is not true.  By answering the question without addressing the conditional it appears that you are conceding the first part of the question. If you ask good questions then you will get good answers. If you ask rhetorical questions and implant half truth into the question then you must debate the merits of the question before you can argue the answer to the question.  Difficult to grasp?
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not at all difficult to grasp. But I think you're debating something that is already proven. Clearly there are people in this country fighting against Education, and I'm not talking about funding. Without an Education, your job prospects are limited. That's a fact.
> 
> So the question is valid. What kind of jobs will be available?
Click to expand...


I will ask again...except for some small minority hidden in the hills of Montana....who is fighting education?

You say many....but you wont answer my question.

Who??


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## DontBeStupid

syrenn said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all jobs require an education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
Click to expand...


That's because you're choosing not to see it.

Creation and evolution in public education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Multiple examples of attacks on the Theory of Evolution. Some over turned, some not.


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## High_Gravity

Jarhead said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
> 
> 
> What i see is parental apathy in motivating THEIR children to do better. There was a time when parents would fight tooth and nail that their children did better then they did in life. Now... no one cares. Children are given everything they want the instant they want it. Working hard for something is no longer something the parents or children grasp.
> 
> So long as other countries are hungrier and more motivated then we are..... we will never get back on top.
> 
> As far as i can see... there is no lack of jobs. The jobs that are there are full. There is a glut of educated people.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes...your last line is quite accurate.
> 
> technology is eliminating the jobs for the less educated.
> 
> Voice mail eliminates operators and receptionists
> email eliminates mailroom personnel
> CNC eliminates manual machinists
> 
> and in the meantime, more and more people are going to college.
> 
> SO now we have a large supply of college degreed people.
Click to expand...


I personally think we are getting to the point where there are alot of people but not enough jobs, like you said without an education there really isn't that much out there for you anymore, even the Military are cutting positions and its not that easy to just go and sign up like it was before. It looks like in the future unless you have a education in a critical field, life will be very dark for you.


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## signelect

We have been throwing money at education for years and it is still going down hill.  Parents blame the schools and teachers when in fact they aren't teaching their kids anything.  Just look at how kids act out in public and the parent say nothing.  I got my butt beat when I acting up in a store or restaurant.  Personal responsibility has disappeared.  Today if I have manual skills, diesel mechanic, electrician, plumber, HVAC and other you can get a job today.  A handful of stupid scientist gave us Global Warming, a complete fabrication that has cost this country billions, let hear it for the scientist.  You want to know the truth about Global Warming call me and I will tell you for free and it will be worth what you paid. NOTHING


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## Jarhead

DontBeStupid said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because you're choosing not to see it.
> 
> Creation and evolution in public education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Multiple examples of attacks on the Theory of Evolution. Some over turned, some not.
Click to expand...


oh....I see....

Never mind. I am trying to debate someone who is all wrapped up in the far wing rhetoric.


----------



## Texanmike

DontBeStupid said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, if he wanted to ask about cuts in spending for education, I think he would have asked about cuts in spending for education. There are many in this country waging a war on Education as a concept, and Science in particular. Trying to re-write history text books or trying to force Intelligent Design into schools as hard science, has nothing to do with spending cuts.
> 
> So why do it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there are many?
> 
> I dont think many.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Climate Change
> Evolution
> Stem Cell Research
> American History
> 
> Have all come under attack in recent years. Not to mention the basic idea of Logic has pretty much been tossed out the window by anyone the Right. But not so much the specifics is what's the problem, but the fact that these attacks attack the process.
> 
> For example, many "conservatives" like to attack the Theory of Evolution, saying "Well, it's just a theory. I have a theory too." They don't want to acknowledge that in the Scientific Community, a Theory has weight. It's been tested and has evidence supporting it. It's been upgraded from a Hypothesis (remember that word?). Calling "Intelligent Design" a "Theory" the same as the Theory of Evolution, is an attack on the Scientific Process.
> 
> If this keeps up, the Chinese will be inventing everything and we will be working for them.
Click to expand...


Have you noticed what you're doing?

"Climate change"

Who is debating that the climate is changing?  Up for debate is what is causing the climate change.  But we can't even decide how the climate is changing.  Global cooling? Global warming?  Just changing?  

"Evolution"

Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.  The fact that you happen to agree with Evolution doesn't make it any more or less valid to the guy after you.  The same goes for Intelligent Design.  

Stem Cell research.  Embryonic Stem Cell Research, to be specific.  Some people actually view that as morally wrong.  There are people who are against Eugenics too.  That is a science.  It just happens to be one that most of us find to be immoral.  Funny thing huh?  Are you saying that if I regect the study of Euginics that I am against science?

"American History"

You would be surprised at how little history you were taught.  Most of what we get is a fourth generation washed down version of history.  History has been rewritten for all of history. If you want to learn anything about history go get a book written at the time of the event.

Funny, you didn't list Math, English, Geology or anything that doesn't have a raging political debate.  I wonder if your debate is political in nature...

Mike


----------



## JWBooth

Education or indoctrination?


----------



## Jarhead

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> there are many?
> 
> I dont think many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Climate Change
> Evolution
> Stem Cell Research
> American History
> 
> Have all come under attack in recent years. Not to mention the basic idea of Logic has pretty much been tossed out the window by anyone the Right. But not so much the specifics is what's the problem, but the fact that these attacks attack the process.
> 
> For example, many "conservatives" like to attack the Theory of Evolution, saying "Well, it's just a theory. I have a theory too." They don't want to acknowledge that in the Scientific Community, a Theory has weight. It's been tested and has evidence supporting it. It's been upgraded from a Hypothesis (remember that word?). Calling "Intelligent Design" a "Theory" the same as the Theory of Evolution, is an attack on the Scientific Process.
> 
> If this keeps up, the Chinese will be inventing everything and we will be working for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you noticed what you're doing?
> 
> "Climate change"
> 
> Who is debating that the climate is changing?  Up for debate is what is causing the climate change.  But we can't even decide how the climate is changing.  Global cooling? Global warming?  Just changing?
> 
> "Evolution"
> 
> Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.  The fact that you happen to agree with Evolution doesn't make it any more or less valid to the guy after you.  The same goes for Intelligent Design.
> 
> Stem Cell research.  Embryonic Stem Cell Research, to be specific.  Some people actually view that as morally wrong.  There are people who are against Eugenics too.  That is a science.  It just happens to be one that most of us find to be immoral.  Funny thing huh?  Are you saying that if I regect the study of Euginics that I am against science?
> 
> "American History"
> 
> You would be surprised at how little history you were taught.  Most of what we get is a fourth generation washed down version of history.  History has been rewritten for all of history. If you want to learn anything about history go get a book written at the time of the event.
> 
> Funny, you didn't list Math, English, Geology or anything that doesn't have a raging political debate.  I wonder if your debate is political in nature...
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


I finally saw the whole direction of this thread.

On things that are up for debate, if you dont see it the same way as DBS and Rdean, then you are 100% educating our society.

Pathetic form of debate.


----------



## Skull Pilot

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



Better question is what kind of jobs is our current piss poor education system preparing students for?

Social promotion and grading on the curve have done more damage to this country than any terrorist plot.


----------



## signelect

We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:

1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)

2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)

3.  People who make things happen (5%)

The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.


----------



## Texanmike

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question was asked in a manner that it forces people to concede something that is not true. See if you follow this example.
> 
> 
> "With gay people wanting to force a homosexual lifestyle on heterosexuals why do support gay marriage?"
> 
> The first part of the question is not true.  By answering the question without addressing the conditional it appears that you are conceding the first part of the question. If you ask good questions then you will get good answers. If you ask rhetorical questions and implant half truth into the question then you must debate the merits of the question before you can argue the answer to the question.  Difficult to grasp?
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not at all difficult to grasp. But I think you're debating something that is already proven. Clearly there are people in this country fighting against Education, and I'm not talking about funding. Without an Education, your job prospects are limited. That's a fact.
> 
> So the question is valid. What kind of jobs will be available?
Click to expand...


You see.  Here is the problem.  "Proven".  That is an *opinion*.  We can't even agree on what education is.  If the focus on getting an education is for the purpose of jobs then why is evolution or intelligent design taught to anyone other than people in a field like that?  Why do we teach a predigested version of history?  Why didn't you ask "why don't we spend more money on teaching kids math?"  

I find it hard to believe that the concentration of this question was about jobs because the list of subjects you were worried about had very little to do with employment other than stem cells and we are finding all kinds of things to do with cells other than embryonic stem cells.  I want to know why we are putting money into sex ed and morality, things that should be taught at home.  Why, for that matter, is there one standard of education?  There are some very intelligent people on both sides of the Evolution/Intelligent Design theory debate and in reality that has very little to do with why jobs are disappearning.  

In reality "Education" is not the problem with jobs and it likely won't be in the future.  With increasing drop out rates why are we spending money on kids/parents who don't care?  Why are we diverting funds from people who give a damn about their future?  You don't see *that* as a war on education?  

Mike


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

What people are pushing back on is the left's attempts at turning public education into public sponsored indoctrination where children spend the bulk of their day studying the ills of capitalism, "My Two Mommy's", putting condoms on cucumbers and being told that you can't really win or lose so everybody gets a "triangle" instead of a grade.

And frankly, fuck you if you have a problem with that.

Bye!


----------



## Moonglow

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



I believe we would do better with more vocational traing during high school. Not everyone  is a brainiac that is able to succeed at higher education.


----------



## Texanmike

signelect said:


> We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:
> 
> 1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)
> 
> 2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)
> 
> 3.  People who make things happen (5%)
> 
> The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.



Perspective is... a dangerous thing.

Mike


----------



## deregulateTHIS

I think education is essential for our survival.  Otherwise, we would still be grunting at each other and clubbing animals in the head for dinner.


----------



## Skull Pilot

deregulateTHIS said:


> I think education is essential for our survival.  Otherwise, we would still be grunting at each other and clubbing animals in the head for dinner.



You seem to forget that one had to teach their young to club animals over the head without getting killed by said animal.  Was that not education?


----------



## DontBeStupid

Texanmike said:


> I find it hard to believe that the concentration of this question was about jobs because the list of subjects you were worried about had very little to do with employment other than stem cells



/sigh

I only listed them because people like you and others were claiming there was ZERO attacks on Education. Clearly, that is not the case. And you just did it yourself in a previous post calling Evolution "just a theory". Do you even know what a Scientific Theory is? What it takes to get that title? I don't think you do.

But again, taking these examples, taking the obvious push for less and less money to be spent on education, how can anyone claim there is ZERO attacks? That's choosing to be ignorant.


----------



## DontBeStupid

Moonglow said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe we would do better with more vocational traing during high school. Not everyone  is a brainiac that is able to succeed at higher education.
Click to expand...


Absolutely! 100% agree!

That takes money though, and there are those who want as little money spent on educating people. Therein lies the challenge.


----------



## Londoner

Warrior102 said:


> You can't buy your way out of dumb, RDean, no matter how much money is thrown at you.
> 
> School districts had total expenditures of approximately $596.6 billion in 2007&#8211;08, including about $506.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, nearly $65.8 billion was spent on capital outlay, almost $15.7 billion on interest payments on debt, and $8.3 billion on other programs (including programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education).
> 
> After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment at public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again after 1992&#8211;93. There was an increase of 37 percent from 1980&#8211;81 to 1990&#8211;91; a change of less than 1 percent from 1990&#8211;91 to 1994&#8211;95 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 1992&#8211;93); and an increase of 32 percent from 1994&#8211;95 to 2007&#8211;08. In 2007&#8211;08, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $10,297 in unadjusted dollars. In 2007&#8211;08, some 55 percent of students in public schools were transported at public expense at a cost of $854 per pupil transported, also in unadjusted dollars.
> 
> Money doesn't seem to be working.
> 
> Start with teaching your children some values at home



Exactly.

Having the _time_ to teach values at home was possible during the postwar years when a family could survive on the father's wages and benefits. Indeed, because of the old Liberal/New Deal wage structure, the mother could afford to stay at home and raise the children. The father also had more time to be at home for the family. This structure was made possible because of the government imposed compromise between  capital and Labor. 

While paying such high wages had obvious drawbacks, there were some incredible benefits. For one, the high wage structure resulted in the greatest consumption economy on earth. Why? Because unlike 3rd world laborers which made pennies a day, the American working class could _actually afford_ to buy what they produced. Meaning: high wages and benefits resulted in massive consumer demand. And what happens when there is massive consumer demand? The capitalist must innovate and add jobs to capture that demand.

The high wages, benefits, and entitlements of the postwar years lead to a golden era of capitalism - a time when more Americans had a slice of the American dream, and average workers could send their kids to college. Why? because _Government_ invested tax dollars into the creation of world class public universities, i.e., affordable education for the masses. And the result? America lead the world in education and upward mobility for the poor). Of course this was before the wealthy began to attack public schools for the purpose of lowering the tax burden on the wealthy (which was high in order to sustain a powerful middle class). 

In the 70's, once Germany and Japan re-industrialized and began to encroach on America's postwar manufacturing dominance, Capital grew restless. Their restlessness made sense because less money was coming in. Point is: concessions to labor were getting tougher to swallow. So what did capital do? It invested heavily in a political party.

Enter Ronald Reagan, who was sent to Washington to reverse Labor's long held advantage over capital - an advantage built by 45 years of Liberal hegemony. Reagan convinced America to un-burden capital from the taxes, regulations, and over-priced labor of the postwar years. He said that this would create efficiency gains which would deliver more jobs, more innovation, and cheaper prices for all. America listened and spent the next 30 years under the spell of Reaganomics. Oddly, the jobs didn't really trickle down as promised; they trickled overseas to sweatshops. 

Under Reagan, the working and middle class - having lost wages and benefits - required more and more debt to maintain purchasing power and standard of living. [Morning in America was actually the golden age of credit-based consumption. Google this for yourself. Look at the amount of debt American families assumed starting with Reagan. It will blow your mind. America was fooled into thinking that their postwar prosperity had returned. In truth, they were entering a 30 year credit-orgy which would end in the death of the American economy: sorry folks, you can't borrow forever] Because Reagan destroyed the old Liberal wage/benefit structure, each successive president had to figure out a different set of bubble-&-credit gimmicks to make up for the lack of real wages (which fueled consumption). Meanwhile, because of their tax breaks and lowered labor costs, the wealthy saw unprecedented gains. 

[Worse, the wealthy had so much surplus capital that Wall Street struggled to find sufficient investment opportunities; therefore, they invented one hedge and derivative ponzi scheme after another. Reagnaomics underfunded the "consumption" class (which meant they had to over-rely on credit), while, at the same time, over-funding the investment class (which meant they over-invested in risky garbage). In short, the distribution scheme created by Reagan turned into a disaster for both the real economy of goods and services, and the Wall Street economy of investments and financialization]

The middle class was told that the money from the unprecedented gains would trickle down - but what they actually saw was a 30 year erosion of wages and benefits as capital was freed to pursue Mexican, Asian, and 3rd world sweatshop labor. 

If not the middle class, where did the profits trickle down to? Answer: politicians, think tanks, and popular media. The wealthy used their profits to launch an ideological war against everything which put upward pressure on taxes, including public infrastructure and public education. They paid an army of statisticians and media personalities to convince America that it should no longer fund _anything_. Indeed, everything - and I mean everything - formerly done for the middle class would now be cut in order to give more tax cuts to the wealthy. And where did the tax cuts get re-invested: Government and Media . . . so that they could keep the ruse going. 

American swallowed poison in 1980. The patient is almost dead.


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> there are many?
> 
> I dont think many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Climate Change
> Evolution
> Stem Cell Research
> American History
> 
> Have all come under attack in recent years. Not to mention the basic idea of Logic has pretty much been tossed out the window by anyone the Right. But not so much the specifics is what's the problem, but the fact that these attacks attack the process.
> 
> For example, many "conservatives" like to attack the Theory of Evolution, saying "Well, it's just a theory. I have a theory too." They don't want to acknowledge that in the Scientific Community, a Theory has weight. It's been tested and has evidence supporting it. It's been upgraded from a Hypothesis (remember that word?). Calling "Intelligent Design" a "Theory" the same as the Theory of Evolution, is an attack on the Scientific Process.
> 
> If this keeps up, the Chinese will be inventing everything and we will be working for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you noticed what you're doing?
> 
> "Climate change"
> 
> Who is debating that the climate is changing?  Up for debate is what is causing the climate change.  But we can't even decide how the climate is changing.  Global cooling? Global warming?  Just changing?
> 
> "Evolution"
> 
> Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.  The fact that you happen to agree with Evolution doesn't make it any more or less valid to the guy after you.  The same goes for Intelligent Design.
> 
> Stem Cell research.  Embryonic Stem Cell Research, to be specific.  Some people actually view that as morally wrong.  There are people who are against Eugenics too.  That is a science.  It just happens to be one that most of us find to be immoral.  Funny thing huh?  Are you saying that if I regect the study of Euginics that I am against science?
> 
> "American History"
> 
> You would be surprised at how little history you were taught.  Most of what we get is a fourth generation washed down version of history.  History has been rewritten for all of history. If you want to learn anything about history go get a book written at the time of the event.
> 
> Funny, you didn't list Math, English, Geology or anything that doesn't have a raging political debate.  I wonder if your debate is political in nature...
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


You are so wrong it actually hurt my eyes to read the part about the Theory of evolution.

Which is in the same stage as the Theory of Relativity, and the Theory of Gravity, and the Theory of Light.

Sorry but it simply isn't true, and what you said constitutes a blindness to an educated view on what evolution actually is.


----------



## ClosedCaption

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> there are many?
> 
> I dont think many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Climate Change
> Evolution
> Stem Cell Research
> American History
> 
> Have all come under attack in recent years. Not to mention the basic idea of Logic has pretty much been tossed out the window by anyone the Right. But not so much the specifics is what's the problem, but the fact that these attacks attack the process.
> 
> For example, many "conservatives" like to attack the Theory of Evolution, saying "Well, it's just a theory. I have a theory too." They don't want to acknowledge that in the Scientific Community, a Theory has weight. It's been tested and has evidence supporting it. It's been upgraded from a Hypothesis (remember that word?). Calling "Intelligent Design" a "Theory" the same as the Theory of Evolution, is an attack on the Scientific Process.
> 
> If this keeps up, the Chinese will be inventing everything and we will be working for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you noticed what you're doing?
> 
> "Climate change"
> 
> Who is debating that the climate is changing?  Up for debate is what is causing the climate change.  But we can't even decide how the climate is changing.  Global cooling? Global warming?  Just changing?
> 
> "Evolution"
> 
> *Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.*  The fact that you happen to agree with Evolution doesn't make it any more or less valid to the guy after you.  The same goes for Intelligent Design.
> 
> Stem Cell research.  Embryonic Stem Cell Research, to be specific.  Some people actually view that as morally wrong.  There are people who are against Eugenics too.  That is a science.  It just happens to be one that most of us find to be immoral.  Funny thing huh?  Are you saying that if I regect the study of Euginics that I am against science?
> 
> "American History"
> 
> You would be surprised at how little history you were taught.  Most of what we get is a fourth generation washed down version of history.  History has been rewritten for all of history. If you want to learn anything about history go get a book written at the time of the event.
> 
> Funny, you didn't list Math, English, Geology or anything that doesn't have a raging political debate.  I wonder if your debate is political in nature...
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...



Hold the fucking phone!  Did you just say Intelligent Design has been tested?  Dude, you're kidding right?


----------



## DontBeStupid

Soggy in NOLA said:


> putting condoms on cucumbers



Yes, because we all know, that teaching kids to have safe sex is EXACTLY the same as telling them to run out and fuck five strangers.

Thanks for the example, ass hat.


----------



## Photonic

signelect said:


> We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:
> 
> 1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)
> 
> 2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)
> 
> 3.  People who make things happen (5%)
> 
> The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.



I prefer to make things happen. Or else I would not have taken the research opportunity for the engineering Dept. of UC Long Beach, overseeing an experimental research component of the engineering dept. even though it's out of my field. I would not have patented a technology well over 40 years ahead of its time with collaborative research submitted to JPL in Pasadena. 

Did you know out of China's educated population, almost 40% are going for engineering?

Want to know how many in the US go for engineering? 0.5% declared as an engineering major.

The numbers are actually slightly more for my field in Physics, at around 1.2%.

We are going so far backwards it's horrifying.


----------



## Annie

I'm certainly for educating our young. However cost-wise we have major problems. Certainly some of them are being addressed, painfully, at the pay and benefits level. 

There are many more issues involved however. Off the top of my head, here are a few:

-schools have somehow been mandated to provide respite care for parents of children who are incapable of learning. While this may be something as a nation we feel these parents should have, it doesn't seem that schools are the best choice. I'm not addressing learning disabilities or the educable retarded, those fall within the purview of education. I'm referring to children that would be better cared for at home, with medical specialists.  

-schools have been the point place to 'equalize' opportunities, both social and economic. It's not only failing, but it's dumbing down the curriculum. Not all students are capable or desirous of university studies. Attempting to provide a prep education for all, sets up failure for both the student and the schools. Much of the acting out we see from middle school through high school are behaviors of students in classes they are incapable of mastering or find otherwise irrelevant to their futures. We have schools for the gifted in academics and the arts, there should be schools designated to those who haven't any interests in academics beyond basic literacy and math. 

-tracking works, nearly all those nations 'leading the scores' use it from the entrance to school.


----------



## Zoom-boing

Moonglow said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe we would do better with more vocational traing during high school. Not everyone  is a brainiac that is able to succeed at higher education.
Click to expand...


I quite agree with this.  I just Googled "jobs not enough skilled workers" and came up with pages and pages of examples from all over the country about the lack of skilled labor.   There appears to be many jobs out there but they do not require and suit and tie.  Our school district has a great Vo-Tech program as an alternate to the 'college route'.  Much of college is over-rated, imo.


----------



## Jarhead

DontBeStupid said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> 
> putting condoms on cucumbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because we all know, that teaching kids to have safe sex is EXACTLY the same as telling them to run out and fuck five strangers.
> 
> Thanks for the example, ass hat.
Click to expand...


Yo...keep up with the program.

The debate isnt about whether or not sex education in the schools at a young age will result in kids running around doing each other.

The debate has to do with whether or not it is approprate for the government to decide when a child should be exposed to sex. Many parents prefer they broach the subject with their children when they feel their childrn are ready

And just as is true in real life, not everyone is metally prepared for things at the same exact age...so it makes sense that some parents wish to wait.

If you dont know the crux of the debate, I suggest you sit back and watch...and learn.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> You are so wrong it actually hurt my eyes to read the part about the Theory of evolution.
> 
> Which is in the same stage as the Theory of Relativity, and the Theory of Gravity, and the Theory of Light.
> 
> Sorry but it simply isn't true, and what you said constitutes a blindness to an educated view on what evolution actually is.



You're kidding right?  All of the theories you listed have been observed, in real time.  The theory of evolution is of an entirely different nature than the rest of them.  Evolution is not based on observation of events in real time.

There are two theories of evolution.

One is the theory of evolution as the origin of species. It is based on speculation and circumstancial evidence.  Every piece of the theory is based on incomplete fossil records.  It has been tested, not in practice but in theory.  

The second is the theory of evolution of a species.  Put a bunch of black rats in the dessert for few months and you will have a population of entirely white rats.  

One is observed. One is based on circumstantial evidence.  Gravity, Relativity and Light are all observed. 

So tell me. How much scrutiny have you applied to the science?  Do you know the shortcomings?  I can list them for both of them and I haven't really taken a stance but for you to sit there and tell me that I don't know enough? I've evaluated both and freely admit I haven't come to a conclusion.

Mike


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are so wrong it actually hurt my eyes to read the part about the Theory of evolution.
> 
> Which is in the same stage as the Theory of Relativity, and the Theory of Gravity, and the Theory of Light.
> 
> Sorry but it simply isn't true, and what you said constitutes a blindness to an educated view on what evolution actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?  All of the theories you listed have been observed, in real time.  The theory of evolution is of an entirely different nature than the rest of them.  Evolution is not based on observation of events in real time.
> 
> There are two theories of evolution.
> 
> One is the theory of evolution as the origin of species. It is based on speculation and circumstancial evidence.  Every piece of the theory is based on incomplete fossil records.  It has been tested, not in practice but in theory.
> 
> The second is the theory of evolution of a species.  Put a bunch of black rats in the dessert for few months and you will have a population of entirely white rats.
> 
> One is observed. One is based on circumstantial evidence.  Gravity, Relativity and Light are all observed.
> 
> So tell me. How much scrutiny have you applied to the science?  Do you know the shortcomings?  I can list them for both of them and I haven't really taken a stance but for you to sit there and tell me that I don't know enough? I've evaluated both and freely admit I haven't come to a conclusion.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Hate to tell you but the Modern Theory of Evolution rests on Genetics.

Go ahead and prove genetics wrong.


----------



## Photonic

Oh, and while I'm on it, there has been observation of both the evolution of species and the origin of species based on the evolutionary process. All documented.


----------



## Jarhead

Photonic said:


> Oh, and while I'm on it, there has been observation of both the evolution of species and the origin of species based on the evolutionary process. All documented.



Can you explain the beginning of the universe? Sure, the big bang...but what was before the big bang?
In other words...what went "Bang" and where was it right before it went "bang"?

Without an explanation of that, all else is still speculation.

My belief?

It was God's decision to develop the world to slowly evolve as it did.
Evolution was God's plan all along.

Do I sound like a politician?


----------



## DontBeStupid

Jarhead said:


> The debate has to do with whether or not it is approprate for the government to decide when a child should be exposed to sex. Many parents prefer they broach the subject with their children when they feel their childrn are ready



Oh! So all those abstinence only programs, they were really about making sure the parents could educate the children in a timely manner that the parent got to choose?

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Climate Change
> Evolution
> Stem Cell Research
> American History
> 
> Have all come under attack in recent years. Not to mention the basic idea of Logic has pretty much been tossed out the window by anyone the Right. But not so much the specifics is what's the problem, but the fact that these attacks attack the process.
> 
> For example, many "conservatives" like to attack the Theory of Evolution, saying "Well, it's just a theory. I have a theory too." They don't want to acknowledge that in the Scientific Community, a Theory has weight. It's been tested and has evidence supporting it. It's been upgraded from a Hypothesis (remember that word?). Calling "Intelligent Design" a "Theory" the same as the Theory of Evolution, is an attack on the Scientific Process.
> 
> If this keeps up, the Chinese will be inventing everything and we will be working for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed what you're doing?
> 
> "Climate change"
> 
> Who is debating that the climate is changing?  Up for debate is what is causing the climate change.  But we can't even decide how the climate is changing.  Global cooling? Global warming?  Just changing?
> 
> "Evolution"
> 
> Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.  The fact that you happen to agree with Evolution doesn't make it any more or less valid to the guy after you.  The same goes for Intelligent Design.
> 
> Stem Cell research.  Embryonic Stem Cell Research, to be specific.  Some people actually view that as morally wrong.  There are people who are against Eugenics too.  That is a science.  It just happens to be one that most of us find to be immoral.  Funny thing huh?  Are you saying that if I regect the study of Euginics that I am against science?
> 
> "American History"
> 
> You would be surprised at how little history you were taught.  Most of what we get is a fourth generation washed down version of history.  History has been rewritten for all of history. If you want to learn anything about history go get a book written at the time of the event.
> 
> Funny, you didn't list Math, English, Geology or anything that doesn't have a raging political debate.  I wonder if your debate is political in nature...
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are so wrong it actually hurt my eyes to read the part about the Theory of evolution.
> 
> Which is in the same stage as the Theory of Relativity, and the Theory of Gravity, and the Theory of Light.
> 
> Sorry but it simply isn't true, and what you said constitutes a blindness to an educated view on what evolution actually is.
Click to expand...




Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are so wrong it actually hurt my eyes to read the part about the Theory of evolution.
> 
> Which is in the same stage as the Theory of Relativity, and the Theory of Gravity, and the Theory of Light.
> 
> Sorry but it simply isn't true, and what you said constitutes a blindness to an educated view on what evolution actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?  All of the theories you listed have been observed, in real time.  The theory of evolution is of an entirely different nature than the rest of them.  Evolution is not based on observation of events in real time.
> 
> There are two theories of evolution.
> 
> One is the theory of evolution as the origin of species. It is based on speculation and circumstancial evidence.  Every piece of the theory is based on incomplete fossil records.  It has been tested, not in practice but in theory.
> 
> The second is the theory of evolution of a species.  Put a bunch of black rats in the dessert for few months and you will have a population of entirely white rats.
> 
> One is observed. One is based on circumstantial evidence.  Gravity, Relativity and Light are all observed.
> 
> So tell me. How much scrutiny have you applied to the science?  Do you know the shortcomings?  I can list them for both of them and I haven't really taken a stance but for you to sit there and tell me that I don't know enough? I've evaluated both and freely admit I haven't come to a conclusion.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hate to tell you but the Modern Theory of Evolution rests on Genetics.
> 
> Go ahead and prove genetics wrong.
Click to expand...


Oh, well... then it is settled.  The fact remains that it is based on circumstance.

We test the genetic material from two species and speculate about how they might have common heredity.  Wow, what a surprise.  Organisims in the same environment have similar characteristics.  I'm familiar with the research and the theory. Much moreso than you might think.  I just don't think it is conclusive.  Here's a thought. Most people that fall on one side of the evolution/ID argument in the scientific community made up their minds before they applied the science.  *Both* arguments are tainted and *neither* are as reliable as they would have you believe.  The reality is we have no idea how we got here.

Mike


----------



## Annie

I thought this was about education and some people's reasoning for getting costs under control? 

Teaching our young about scientific method, the meaning of 'theory' is appropriate for science classes. Teaching creationism in science class isn't. Are some school districts trying to do that? Yes, a few. Very few. If I lived in one of those, I'd be going bananas on them. 

Rdean threw in science hoping that a few would turn this into evolution thread, so here we are.


----------



## Texanmike

DontBeStupid said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> The debate has to do with whether or not it is approprate for the government to decide when a child should be exposed to sex. Many parents prefer they broach the subject with their children when they feel their childrn are ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! So all those abstinence only programs, they were really about making sure the parents could educate the children in a timely manner that the parent got to choose?
> 
> Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
Click to expand...


Why teach anything?  Why not let the parents do it?  Why don't we have bike riding classes in school?  Ass whiping classes?  When did it not become the parents job to parent?

Mike


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

DontBeStupid said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> 
> putting condoms on cucumbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because we all know, that teaching kids to have safe sex is EXACTLY the same as telling them to run out and fuck five strangers.
> 
> Thanks for the example, ass hat.
Click to expand...


Hey Fuckwad, perhaps you should get off your dead ass, put down the beer can and teach your kids some responsibility... like most of us do already.

Now fuck off.

Bye!


----------



## yidnar

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?


 lets see what kind of jobs are out there for drop outs............crack dealer,crack whore,thief,gang member,community organizer !!


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

DontBeStupid said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> The debate has to do with whether or not it is approprate for the government to decide when a child should be exposed to sex. Many parents prefer they broach the subject with their children when they feel their childrn are ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! So all those abstinence only programs, they were really about making sure the parents could educate the children in a timely manner that the parent got to choose?
> 
> Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
Click to expand...


Hey, CantHelpButBeStupid, why are you such a fucking busy-body?  Why don't you tend to your own and stay the fuck out of other's lives?  Just because you're obviously too stupid to teach your kids not to go around screwing anything that has a pulse doesn't mean everybody is this bad off.

Deal?


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> The debate has to do with whether or not it is approprate for the government to decide when a child should be exposed to sex. Many parents prefer they broach the subject with their children when they feel their childrn are ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! So all those abstinence only programs, they were really about making sure the parents could educate the children in a timely manner that the parent got to choose?
> 
> Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why teach anything?  Why not let the parents do it?  Why don't we have bike riding classes in school?  Ass whiping classes?  When did it not become the parents job to parent?
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Because CantHelpButBeStupid is a typical, lazy liberal jerkoff that is willing to abdicate all his responsibilities to da gubmint.


----------



## DontBeStupid

Texanmike said:


> I'm familiar with the research and the theory. Much moreso than you might think.  I just don't think it is conclusive.



If it was conclusive, it would be called the Law of Evolution.

I think you have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with the research and the theory. Much moreso than you might think.  I just don't think it is conclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it was conclusive, it would be called the Law of Evolution.
> 
> I think you have no idea what you're talking about.
Click to expand...


You & _Think _have no place in the same sentence.


----------



## Photonic

Jarhead said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and while I'm on it, there has been observation of both the evolution of species and the origin of species based on the evolutionary process. All documented.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain the beginning of the universe? Sure, the big bang...but what was before the big bang?
> In other words...what went "Bang" and where was it right before it went "bang"?
> 
> Without an explanation of that, all else is still speculation.
> 
> My belief?
> 
> It was God's decision to develop the world to slowly evolve as it did.
> Evolution was God's plan all along.
> 
> Do I sound like a politician?
Click to expand...


No, you don't. Because no politician would admit to being blinded by their faith.


----------



## Texanmike

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with the research and the theory. Much moreso than you might think.  I just don't think it is conclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it was conclusive, it would be called the Law of Evolution.
> 
> I think you have no idea what you're talking about.
Click to expand...


I think you lack the ability to question that which you hold as sacred. First you are telling me that it is based on something that is accepted as truth.  Then you tell me that it isn't conclusive but I should treat it as something that is almost conclusive but not quite.  I think you cannot elloquently argue your point, likely do to a lack of real familiarity with the subject, so you make broad generalizations and don't deal with any of the topics I present. Instead you look for me to make syntactical errors and exploit them.  Have fun with that.

Mike


----------



## DontBeStupid

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with the research and the theory. Much moreso than you might think.  I just don't think it is conclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it was conclusive, it would be called the Law of Evolution.
> 
> I think you have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you lack the ability to question that which you hold as sacred. First you are telling me that it is based on something that is accepted as truth.  Then you tell me that it isn't conclusive but I should treat it as something that is almost conclusive but not quite.  I think you cannot elloquently argue your point, likely do to a lack of real familiarity with the subject, so you make broad generalizations and don't deal with any of the topics I present. Instead you look for me to make syntactical errors and exploit them.  Have fun with that.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


It's not about syntax. Words have meaning. Especially in the Scientific Community. Saying that a Theory is "just a theory" and saying it's not "conclusive", clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about. Or you do, but you're using this as a veiled attempt to attack Science, like may others do. Regardless, my point has been proved now multiple times just within this thread. 

So, since there is now a CLEARLY established fight against Education, both in this thread and in this country, care to answer the original question?

Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?


----------



## Photonic

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it was conclusive, it would be called the Law of Evolution.
> 
> I think you have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you lack the ability to question that which you hold as sacred. First you are telling me that it is based on something that is accepted as truth.  Then you tell me that it isn't conclusive but I should treat it as something that is almost conclusive but not quite.  I think you cannot elloquently argue your point, likely do to a lack of real familiarity with the subject, so you make broad generalizations and don't deal with any of the topics I present. Instead you look for me to make syntactical errors and exploit them.  Have fun with that.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not about syntax. Words have meaning. Especially in the Scientific Community. Saying that a Theory is "just a theory" and saying it's not "conclusive", clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about. Or you do, but you're using this as a veiled attempt to attack Science, like may others do. Regardless, my point has been proved now multiple times just within this thread.
> 
> So, since there is now a CLEARLY established fight against Education, both in this thread and in this country, care to answer the original question?
> 
> Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?
Click to expand...


The kind of jobs that will be available are those that do not help this country compete against other countries.

Education loses, we all lose.


----------



## Texanmike

Part of the problem with the education system today is that we have blurred the line between fact and opinion.  We stifle scientific exploration and we celebrate only an expression of liberty that is in line with our own.  This is symptomatic of our society as a whole.  Take "women's rights" for example.  We support a woman's right to work.  We champion their cause.  Find me a feminist who is celebrating the woman who chooses to be a stay at home mom.  You won't find many because "freedom of expression" is usually relegated to some form of "freedom of expression of ideas I espouse".  

We start this process by supporting children and trying to make difficult work easier.  We see games designed to teach you multiplication tables and make it fun.  We wonder why our children are intellectually lazy when we teach them that learning should be fun.  Learning isn't fun.  Discovery, which is a byproduct of learning, is fun.  We try to reward children incrementally as they learn small bits of information instead of allowing them the gratification of connecting cause and effect. 

I started a thread about the Constitution in a different thread and it was based on my own research.  Why don't we approach more things like this?  My *hypothesis* is that we don't because we are used to getting our research spoon fed to us.  When I was growing up (not all that long ago) a research paper involved going to the library looking through the card catalogue and finding book after book.  If it was scientific it involved expirements and observation, if it was historical it involved endless hours reading and trying to piece two or more concepts together based on what I read.  Many times I wound up with an entirely different conclusion than my original hypothesis.  That doesn't happen very often.  We don't encourage discovery of the world around us, we encourage discovery of the way we feel.  *That* is at the root of the problem.  Its a sad state when we spoon feed people their ideas and then are surprised when we have no advance.  If "education" is someone's ability to parrot an instructor then we should not be surprised that we are falling behind in innovation.

Mike


----------



## Texanmike

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it was conclusive, it would be called the Law of Evolution.
> 
> I think you have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you lack the ability to question that which you hold as sacred. First you are telling me that it is based on something that is accepted as truth.  Then you tell me that it isn't conclusive but I should treat it as something that is almost conclusive but not quite.  I think you cannot elloquently argue your point, likely do to a lack of real familiarity with the subject, so you make broad generalizations and don't deal with any of the topics I present. Instead you look for me to make syntactical errors and exploit them.  Have fun with that.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not about syntax. Words have meaning. Especially in the Scientific Community. Saying that a Theory is "just a theory" and saying it's not "conclusive", clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about. Or you do, but you're using this as a veiled attempt to attack Science, like may others do. Regardless, my point has been proved now multiple times just within this thread.
> 
> So, since there is now a CLEARLY established fight against Education, both in this thread and in this country, care to answer the original question?
> 
> Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?
Click to expand...


There you go again.  "I'm going to state a rule then we must have a discussion assuming my rule is true". 

You clearly missed my point.  Words DO have meaning, you are correct.  Its funny though. My questioning a theory is somehow "against" science.  I don't think you understand science at all.  The essence of science *is* questioning what we assume to be true.  Newton and Einstein both "attacked" science.  Turns out they are right.


Mike


----------



## DontBeStupid

Texanmike said:


> Its funny though. My questioning a theory is somehow "against" science.



But you're not "questioning", you're attacking. You're not saying "This Theory said that X would happen and instead Y happened. Why is that? What caused that? Lets find out." You're saying that because a Theory isn't a Law that means there are holes in it and we should therefore look at entirely different ideas instead. If a Theory is right 95% of the time, look at that 5%. Question that 5%. Don't turn your back and run to Religion for answers. That's not Science.


----------



## FA_Q2

Texanmike said:


> "Evolution"
> 
> Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.  The fact that you happen to agree with Evolution doesn't make it any more or less valid to the guy after you.  The same goes for Intelligent Design.


I don't know if I want to go down this road because it might steal the thread but...

You are completely incorrect here.  Evolution IS a valid theory and has mountains of evidence for it.  That is why it is taught in schools.  It belongs there.  ID is NOT a valid scientific theory and currently contains zero evidence.  In reality, it is not even a valid scientific hypothesis as it requires supernatural elements that are outside the preview of science in the first place.  If you want to talk about possible ID by other sources like ET's or something on that line you would then have a valid scientific hypothesis as crazy as you may be.  That hypothesis does not belong anywhere near the science class though.  Plain and simple, ID does not belong in science as it is not nor will it ever be science.

Now, if you were fighting to have issues that are unresolved in the theory of evolution to be taught more vigorously, then that I could understand.  However, at this point, ID is little more than an attempt at religious followers wanting their views established in school where they do not belong.


signelect said:


> We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:
> 
> 1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)
> 
> 2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)
> 
> 3.  People who make things happen (5%)
> 
> The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.


I'll give you one fix, allow for vouchers both within the public realm and the private one.  Even simply allowing vouchers between public institution and excluding any private schools would be a huge step in the right direction.  Allow parents the ability to have an active role in their children's educations would allow poorer families access to much better education stifling the rot that keeps people at the bottom.  



DontBeStupid said:


> So, since there is now a CLEARLY established fight against Education, both in this thread and in this country, care to answer the original question?
> 
> Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?


You have not shown anything that even closely relates to an attack on education at all.  You have shown ONE SMALL attack on a SINGLE scientific theory that is only attacked because it disagrees with two MILLENNIA of established religious doctrine.  If you think that was not going to happen, that long held beliefs in a 6000 year old earth would simply vanish overnight, you are being a naive idiot.  There needs to be time, lots more than you think as well, for people to come to terms and meld their religions beliefs with scientific realities.  That push (to get ID in schools) has no impact on education as education will still push forward even if ID replaced evolution.  Further, ID has never came close to the classroom on anything that would represent a significant issue.  There is no fight there.  Everywhere it is tried it fails miserably and it will continue to fail until the grater population begins to understand that evolution has no bearing on religion and the two can coexist without problem.


----------



## DontBeStupid

FA_Q2 said:


> You have not shown anything that even closely relates to an attack on education at all.  You have shown ONE SMALL attack on a SINGLE scientific theory that is only attacked because it disagrees with two MILLENNIA of established religious doctrine.



I actually listed 4 examples. 5 if you count Logic. Evolution has dominated the thread ever since because people like to yell about that. I think that if you add these examples to the obvious, nationwide push to cut funding for Education, I think we can safely say there is a fight against Education. Maybe not a massive fight, sure, but clearly there is a country-wide push against Education.

You even acknowledge! You said "There is no fight there. Everywhere it is tried it fails miserably " No fight? Or a fight that has failed? It can't be both. Personally, I agree with you that, so far, it is a fight that has largely failed. But it has also had limited successes. And what happens if it has a big success? What happens to jobs and the country then?


----------



## FA_Q2

DontBeStupid said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have not shown anything that even closely relates to an attack on education at all.  You have shown ONE SMALL attack on a SINGLE scientific theory that is only attacked because it disagrees with two MILLENNIA of established religious doctrine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually listed 4 examples. 5 if you count Logic. Evolution has dominated the thread ever since because people like to yell about that. I think that if you add these examples to the obvious, nationwide push to cut funding for Education, I think we can safely say there is a fight against Education. Maybe not a massive fight, sure, but clearly there is a country-wide push against Education.
> 
> You even acknowledge! You said "There is no fight there. Everywhere it is tried it fails miserably " No fight? Or a fight that has failed? It can't be both. Personally, I agree with you that, so far, it is a fight that has largely failed. But it has also had limited successes. And what happens if it has a big success? What happens to jobs and the country then?
Click to expand...

I was quite precise, there is no fight against education because that fight is NOT against education but what should be taught.  If you want to be specific with the fight against ID, there is a debate there and the ID side is like an ant trying to fight am elephant.  There may be a fight there but it is not worth any time because it has no chance of happening.  Your supposition that there is a fight against education, on the other hand, is based on nothing.


Again, you have established no such fight.  In your examples you have also failed to show how they are fights also.  Where is our fight against history?  Are you calling the reorganization of history curricula in Texas a fight against history?  Most see it as bettering the curricula.  If it is not accomplishing that, give specifics of places that it damaged the curricula.  


Climate change???  What the hell does that have to do with education.  It is not in the classroom and has no place there as of yet.


Stem cell research???  Again, what the hell does that have to do with education.  


You have failed to give ONE instance where there is a fight against education so...
ESTABLISH THAT FACT.  We are waiting.


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

DontBeStupid said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have not shown anything that even closely relates to an attack on education at all.  You have shown ONE SMALL attack on a SINGLE scientific theory that is only attacked because it disagrees with two MILLENNIA of established religious doctrine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually listed 4 examples. 5 if you count Logic. Evolution has dominated the thread ever since because people like to yell about that. I think that if you add these examples to the obvious, nationwide push to cut funding for Education, I think we can safely say there is a fight against Education. Maybe not a massive fight, sure, but clearly there is a country-wide push against Education.
> 
> You even acknowledge! You said "There is no fight there. Everywhere it is tried it fails miserably " No fight? Or a fight that has failed? It can't be both. Personally, I agree with you that, so far, it is a fight that has largely failed. But it has also had limited successes. And what happens if it has a big success? What happens to jobs and the country then?
Click to expand...


The left has so diseased the public education system that nobody in their right mind would send their kids to a public school.  I know I didn't let mine near it.


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

FA_Q2 said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have not shown anything that even closely relates to an attack on education at all.  You have shown ONE SMALL attack on a SINGLE scientific theory that is only attacked because it disagrees with two MILLENNIA of established religious doctrine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually listed 4 examples. 5 if you count Logic. Evolution has dominated the thread ever since because people like to yell about that. I think that if you add these examples to the obvious, nationwide push to cut funding for Education, I think we can safely say there is a fight against Education. Maybe not a massive fight, sure, but clearly there is a country-wide push against Education.
> 
> You even acknowledge! You said "There is no fight there. Everywhere it is tried it fails miserably " No fight? Or a fight that has failed? It can't be both. Personally, I agree with you that, so far, it is a fight that has largely failed. But it has also had limited successes. And what happens if it has a big success? What happens to jobs and the country then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was quite precise, there is no fight against education because that fight is NOT against education but what should be taught.  If you want to be specific with the fight against ID, there is a debate there and the ID side is like an ant trying to fight am elephant.  There may be a fight there but it is not worth any time because it has no chance of happening.  Your supposition that there is a fight against education, on the other hand, is based on nothing.
> 
> 
> Again, you have established no such fight.  In your examples you have also failed to show how they are fights also.  Where is our fight against history?  Are you calling the reorganization of history curricula in Texas a fight against history?  Most see it as bettering the curricula.  If it is not accomplishing that, give specifics of places that it damaged the curricula.
> 
> 
> Climate change???  What the hell does that have to do with education.  It is not in the classroom and has no place there as of yet.
> 
> 
> Stem cell research???  Again, what the hell does that have to do with education.
> 
> 
> You have failed to give ONE instance where there is a fight against education so...
> ESTABLISH THAT FACT.  We are waiting.
Click to expand...


"Education" is their way of indoctrinating  the young into believing their crackpot theories and ideologies... like AGW.

They're nothing but a bunch of statists.... ands they know people have caught on... finally.


----------



## Disenchanted61

It has become obvious that ones experience and education has less to do with qualifying for an
employment position, and more so obvious  how much crap one is willing to take from the employer
that will qualify the applicant. That says where we are headed.


----------



## Avatar4321

There was work to do before education became available in mass to the people. I doubt work is going to disappear if somehow people stopped being educated.

I think what we need to do is stop pretending degrees and our system is education. Education is so much more than a piece of paper and going to a college.


----------



## LordBrownTrout

Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about?  I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education.  Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?  

Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?


----------



## syrenn

LordBrownTrout said:


> Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about?  I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education.  Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?
> 
> Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?








He is demonstrating to us that he has a higher education.....


----------



## Texanmike

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its funny though. My questioning a theory is somehow "against" science.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you're not "questioning", you're attacking. You're not saying "This Theory said that X would happen and instead Y happened. Why is that? What caused that? Lets find out." You're saying that because a Theory isn't a Law that means there are holes in it and we should therefore look at entirely different ideas instead. If a Theory is right 95% of the time, look at that 5%. Question that 5%. Don't turn your back and run to Religion for answers. That's not Science.
Click to expand...


Actually, you are the one who is decided on what is right and wrong.  I merely pointed out that there are problems with the THEORY of Evolution. You don't like that.  There are problems with everything from the way it was arrived at to the testing methods. And you should probably read what I actually write before you respond. Find one place where I advocated FOR evolution OR ID.  I said they both have problems.  

Next, yes, if there are problesm then we should look at entirely different ideas. We should revise the ones we have and look at new ideas.  No amount of tweaking the world being flat was going to make it correct.  How do you say that you have any appreciation for science?  Seriously.  Because I dare espouse the idea that we should not jump to conclusions and deem a Theory into law that suddenly I'm some sort of religious lunatic.  How do you ever expect to hold intelligent discourse with anyone who disagrees with you?  Seriously?  This is a tired exercise, go play with another brainwashed person who is stuck in his ideology. You can say yes and no and argue with him and you will both be happy.  I'm done trying to have a serious discussion with you, your mind is made not only about the debate but about me.

Mike


----------



## daveman

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



If you were serious about objecting to the state of education, you'd be complaining about the left, who insist that feelings are more important than grades, that self-esteem takes precedence over learning, and that no one can be a winner because that means there must be losers.

The left is dominated by emotionalism.  If you want real education, turn it over to conservatives.


----------



## daveman

Douger said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
> The murkin dream.
Click to expand...

Don't you pick up shit for a living, or am I confusing you with another incoherent leftist?


----------



## Dionysis

daveman said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you were serious about objecting to the state of education, you'd be complaining about the left, who insist that feelings are more important than grades, that self-esteem takes precedence over learning, and that no one can be a winner because that means there must be losers.
> 
> The left is dominated by emotionalism.  If you want real education, turn it over to conservatives.
Click to expand...


Yes, let us all be Republican Fembots! No emotions, low self esteem only!


----------



## daveman

DontBeStupid said:


> Clearly there are people in this country fighting against Education, and I'm not talking about funding.


Who?


----------



## daveman

Dionysis said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you were serious about objecting to the state of education, you'd be complaining about the left, who insist that feelings are more important than grades, that self-esteem takes precedence over learning, and that no one can be a winner because that means there must be losers.
> 
> The left is dominated by emotionalism.  If you want real education, turn it over to conservatives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, let us all be Republican Fembots! No emotions, low self esteem only!
Click to expand...

Welcome to USMB.  Quit being an idiot.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

_"Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?" _

Community organizer, President, congressman...


----------



## Harry Dresden

Douger said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
> The murkin dream.
Click to expand...


picking up horse shit in Costa Rica....Dougers dream....


----------



## The T

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education. Especially science. Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available? Or don't people care?


How about an education grounded in _reality?_

Not the kinda bullsqueeze they are getting now where they are taught to rely on government rather than themselves as individuals...and especially an education that doesn't do brain damage as it has to *YOU* in particuliar rderp.

You are welcome back in the REAL universe anytime you admit to yourself that YOU are living a lie.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Moonglow said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe we would do better with more vocational traing during high school. Not everyone  is a brainiac that is able to succeed at higher education.
Click to expand...

and here i California as far as i know.....shop classes have been cut out.....


----------



## Dionysis

daveman said:


> Dionysis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you were serious about objecting to the state of education, you'd be complaining about the left, who insist that feelings are more important than grades, that self-esteem takes precedence over learning, and that no one can be a winner because that means there must be losers.
> 
> The left is dominated by emotionalism.  If you want real education, turn it over to conservatives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, let us all be Republican Fembots! No emotions, low self esteem only!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Welcome to USMB.  Quit being an idiot.
Click to expand...


Well, thanks, and as they say, it takes one to know one!


----------



## rdean

LordBrownTrout said:


> Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about?  I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education.  Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?
> 
> Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?



They are called Republicans.

And they say things like:

Education is "just a piece of paper".

Too many are "over educated".

Scientists are liars who claim "Global Warming" to give themselves jobs.

Liberals don't want to teach the "controversy".

You know, stuff like that.


----------



## The T

daveman said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly there are people in this country fighting against Education, and I'm not talking about funding.
> 
> 
> 
> Who?
Click to expand...

Question seconded...

*Who?*


----------



## The T

rdean said:


> LordBrownTrout said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about? I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education. Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?
> 
> Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are called Republicans.
> 
> And they say things like:
> 
> Education is "just a piece of paper".
> 
> Too many are "over educated".
> 
> Scientists are liars who claim "Global Warming" to give themselves jobs.
> 
> Liberals don't want to teach the "controversy".
> 
> You know, stuff like that.
Click to expand...

Education is a grand thing isn't it? Thing is rderp? If you don't posess common sense?

All the book smarts in the world isn't going to help you one Iota.

_Practicality._


----------



## LilOlLady

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



What kind of jobs are you expecting? My nephew is MANAGER at AT&T, makes over $100,000 a year, with yearly bonuses of over $10,000 and he has only a GED with a few community college classes after he started to work. And he will retire at age 55 with full benefits and at 65 will collect social security. 
There are no jobs for college grads. All the jobs are low skilled jobs. A trade in high school are after will surfice now. Teachers are haveing to leave the country to find work. I know many successful people who only have a high school education. and many who have degrees and working at low skilled jobs.
Education don't amount to hill of beans if there are no jobs.
8 million illegal aliens are working and some don't even speak english.


----------



## Harry Dresden

daveman said:


> Douger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
> The murkin dream.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't you pick up shit for a living, or am I confusing you with another incoherent leftist?
Click to expand...


you got the right guy Dave.....he also sells Kiwi fruit along the roadsides....


----------



## daveman

Dionysis said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dionysis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, let us all be Republican Fembots! No emotions, low self esteem only!
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to USMB.  Quit being an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, thanks, and as they say, it takes one to know one!
Click to expand...

Not really, but I've dealt with leftists on the internet for years.  You're easy to spot.


----------



## daveman

Harry Dresden said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Douger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
> The murkin dream.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you pick up shit for a living, or am I confusing you with another incoherent leftist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you got the right guy Dave.....he also sells Kiwi fruit along the roadsides....
Click to expand...

Don't think I'd want to buy any of his kiwi.  They'd have shit all over them.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



How about this?



> PayPal cofounder Peter Thiel knows a thing or two about finding the next big thing.
> Thiel was the first investor in Facebook and predicted the dotcom crash  and the housing bubble. Now he believes the next big thing to burst is  higher education, and he's willing to put his money on it.
> "Learning is good. Credentialing and debt  is very bad," he said. "College gives people learning and also takes  away future opportunities by loading the next generation down with  debt."
> The 43-year-old with a net worth of $1.5 billion recently started a $2  million fund to get college students younger than 20 to drop out of  school and start a business with $100,000 each.



Facebook and PayPal's Peter Thiel Pays College Students to Drop Out - ABC News


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

DontBeStupid said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because you're choosing not to see it.
> 
> Creation and evolution in public education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Multiple examples of attacks on the Theory of Evolution. Some over turned, some not.
Click to expand...


What planet do you live on?  Are you just high?  Drunk?  An idiot?


----------



## Texanmike

Like I was saying earlier. Perhaps we have the wrong expectation of education.  We have trended towards believing that we must provide people with an education.  We have tried to take short cuts and play games and make people feel better.  There is a debate at a local school about getting rid of the *SPELLING BEE* because it is humiliating to get the word wrong out loud.  A lot of kids don't know what multiplication tables are.

With this attitude we are not fostering an environment that encourages learning.  We are fostering an environment that promotes standardization.  We are probably not far from having a grade welfare program in which we take a few points off of the kids with As and Bs and award them to the kids that "need" grades.  You can spend a lifetime in school and learn absolutely nothing of value if you want.  Knowledge doesn't come easy and we shouldn't set our kids up to think it does. 

Mike


----------



## Photonic

LilOlLady said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of jobs are you expecting? My nephew is MANAGER at AT&T, makes over $100,000 a year, with yearly bonuses of over $10,000 and he has only a GED with a few community college classes after he started to work. And he will retire at age 55 with full benefits and at 65 will collect social security.
> There are no jobs for college grads. All the jobs are low skilled jobs. A trade in high school are after will surfice now. Teachers are haveing to leave the country to find work. I know many successful people who only have a high school education. and many who have degrees and working at low skilled jobs.
> Education don't amount to hill of beans if there are no jobs.
> 8 million illegal aliens are working and some don't even speak english.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but if teachers are leaving the country we are truly doomed. The United States will fail in a generation more rapidly than you could possibly imagine.


----------



## FA_Q2

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its funny though. My questioning a theory is somehow "against" science.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you're not "questioning", you're attacking. You're not saying "This Theory said that X would happen and instead Y happened. Why is that? What caused that? Lets find out." You're saying that because a Theory isn't a Law that means there are holes in it and we should therefore look at entirely different ideas instead. If a Theory is right 95% of the time, look at that 5%. Question that 5%. Don't turn your back and run to Religion for answers. That's not Science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, you are the one who is decided on what is right and wrong.  I merely pointed out that there are problems with the THEORY of Evolution. You don't like that.  There are problems with everything from the way it was arrived at to the testing methods. And you should probably read what I actually write before you respond. Find one place where I advocated FOR evolution OR ID.  I said they both have problems.
Click to expand...

No, actually you said this:


Texanmike said:


> Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.


Which is 100 percent without question false.  There is no wat to beat around the bush here.  They are not 'equal' theories.


----------



## rdean

The T said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LordBrownTrout said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about? I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education. Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?
> 
> Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are called Republicans.
> 
> And they say things like:
> 
> Education is "just a piece of paper".
> 
> Too many are "over educated".
> 
> Scientists are liars who claim "Global Warming" to give themselves jobs.
> 
> Liberals don't want to teach the "controversy".
> 
> You know, stuff like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Education is a grand thing isn't it? Thing is rderp? If you don't posess common sense?
> 
> All the book smarts in the world isn't going to help you one Iota.
> 
> _Practicality._
Click to expand...


See what I mean?


----------



## rdean

Soggy in NOLA said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you're choosing not to see it.
> 
> Creation and evolution in public education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Multiple examples of attacks on the Theory of Evolution. Some over turned, some not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What planet do you live on?  Are you just high?  Drunk?  An idiot?
Click to expand...


You're good at name calling.  You must practice in the mirror.


----------



## uscitizen

Reading skills on conllege entrance exams are at their lowest level ever.

Go America!


----------



## Rozman

We spend a fortune on education and the kids are becoming dumber.
The lib response is and it's the same response for anything that's wrong...
We need to spend more money on it ....


----------



## Photonic

Rozman said:


> We spend a fortune on education and the kids are becoming dumber.
> The lib response is and it's the same response for anything that's wrong...
> We need to spend more money on it ....



Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Photonic said:


> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We spend a fortune on education and the kids are becoming dumber.
> The lib response is and it's the same response for anything that's wrong...
> We need to spend more money on it ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
Click to expand...


Why is cutting the budget not an option? If we can get a better result for less money doesn't it make sense to cut what we spend on it? NY could save money simply by firing its rubber room teachers and not impact the money that is actually spent on children one iota.


----------



## theliq

Its actually CHINESE GOOSEBERRY Dave,but the New Zealanders decided to mass produce and market the fruit worldwide as KIWI FRUIT in the late 70's and the name stuck moreover these days they are produced in a lot of countries but they are nowhere near the Quality of the New Zealand product...just saying....theliq bringing education to America,   I'm starting to feel very PROUD Dave





daveman said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you pick up shit for a living, or am I confusing you with another incoherent leftist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you got the right guy Dave.....he also sells Kiwi fruit along the roadsides....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't think I'd want to buy any of his kiwi.  They'd have shit all over them.
Click to expand...


----------



## theliq

Trouble is Cit,its the same the world over,you will find Migrants do much better at school.


uscitizen said:


> Reading skills on conllege entrance exams are at their lowest level ever.
> 
> Go America!


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac

Yep, I've had too much to drink tonight. I just posted my response to this thread in another thread. Dunno how but oh well. 

Again

The only jobs available under this administration are in the campaign department. Only qualification is that your really stupid.


----------



## Harry Dresden

daveman said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you pick up shit for a living, or am I confusing you with another incoherent leftist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you got the right guy Dave.....he also sells Kiwi fruit along the roadsides....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't think I'd want to buy any of his kiwi.  They'd have shit all over them.
Click to expand...


and human hair follicles....


----------



## Harry Dresden

rdean said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are called Republicans.
> 
> And they say things like:
> 
> Education is "just a piece of paper".
> 
> Too many are "over educated".
> 
> Scientists are liars who claim "Global Warming" to give themselves jobs.
> 
> Liberals don't want to teach the "controversy".
> 
> You know, stuff like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Education is a grand thing isn't it? Thing is rderp? If you don't posess common sense?
> 
> All the book smarts in the world isn't going to help you one Iota.
> 
> _Practicality._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See what I mean?
Click to expand...


no you dont see Dean.....the story goes like this, Einstein had a carpenter come to his place....he had a dog and a cat.....he wanted the Carpenter to build him a "doggy" door......one for each animal.....the carpenter thought he was joking.....it turns out....he wasnt.....


----------



## Wicked Jester

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?


Why don't you just lay it out, beany?

What kind of jobs were available to YOU, due to YOUR obvious lack of education?

BTW, you leave the pickles off my Big Mac one more time, i'm jumpin' that counter and kickin' your boney ass.


----------



## Lakhota

*



			Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?
		
Click to expand...

*Sadly, this is what we'll have...  We already see it on this board...


Beginner's Bible Coloring Book! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Have Coffee Will Write » Blog Archive » HOW TO KEEP YOU CHILDREN IGNORANT


----------



## Unkotare

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?




Who exactly is "fighting education"?


----------



## Unkotare

Warrior102 said:


> You can't buy your way out of dumb, RDean, no matter how much money is thrown at you.
> 
> School districts had total expenditures of approximately $596.6 billion in 200708, including about $506.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, nearly $65.8 billion was spent on capital outlay, almost $15.7 billion on interest payments on debt, and $8.3 billion on other programs (including programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education).
> 
> After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment at public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again after 199293. There was an increase of 37 percent from 198081 to 199091; a change of less than 1 percent from 199091 to 199495 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 199293); and an increase of 32 percent from 199495 to 200708. In 200708, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $10,297 in unadjusted dollars. In 200708, some 55 percent of students in public schools were transported at public expense at a cost of $854 per pupil transported, also in unadjusted dollars.
> 
> Money doesn't seem to be working.
> 
> Start with teaching your children some values at home





That last part bears repeating.


----------



## Lakhota

> Who exactly is "fighting education"?



Hell, there's a TeaTard war against evolution, science, teachers, textbooks...

A TeaTard education is different from a Liberal education.  I feel sorry for homeschooled TeaTards.  Really, I do!


----------



## Unkotare

Lakhota said:


> Who exactly is "fighting education"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, there's a TeaTard war against evolution, science, teachers, textbooks...
> 
> A TeaTard education is different from a Liberal education.  I feel sorry for homeschooled TeaTards.  Really, I do!
Click to expand...



Do you think - if you tried real hard - you could grow the fuck up a little and discuss something without the asinine playground "see the funny thing I did with that name? tee-hee" bullshit? 


Do you think? 

YOU are not coming across as very well educated.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Lakhota said:


> Who exactly is "fighting education"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, there's a TeaTard war against evolution, science, teachers, textbooks...
> 
> A TeaTard education is different from a Liberal education.  I feel sorry for homeschooled TeaTards.  Really, I do!
Click to expand...

You son, are the poster child of  liberal education, and indoctrination.

That is why it does not surprise me in the least bit, that you are completely incabable of having an original thought. And must rely solely on talking points, spoonfed to you by the various loony liberal sites you frequent.


----------



## Lakhota

> Do you think - if you tried real hard - you could grow the fuck up a little and discuss something without the asinine playground "see the funny thing I did with that name? tee-hee" bullshit?



Actually, someone else came up with TeaTard.  I saw it and liked it.  Would you prefer something like Kochsucker or Teabagger?


----------



## Unkotare

Lakhota said:


> Do you think - if you tried real hard - you could grow the fuck up a little and discuss something without the asinine playground "see the funny thing I did with that name? tee-hee" bullshit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, someone else came up with TeaTard.  I saw it and liked it.  Would you prefer something like Kochsucker or Teabagger?
Click to expand...



I'd prefer that you go fuck off if you have no intention of discussing the topic.


----------



## daveman

theliq said:


> Its actually CHINESE GOOSEBERRY Dave,but the New Zealanders decided to mass produce and market the fruit worldwide as KIWI FRUIT in the late 70's and the name stuck moreover these days they are produced in a lot of countries but they are nowhere near the Quality of the New Zealand product...just saying....theliq bringing education to America,   I'm starting to feel very PROUD Dave


----------



## daveman

Harry Dresden said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> you got the right guy Dave.....he also sells Kiwi fruit along the roadsides....
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think I'd want to buy any of his kiwi.  They'd have shit all over them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and human hair follicles....
Click to expand...


Eeeeeeewwww.


----------



## editec

WE declared war on the working classes decades ago.

Of course the war on EDUCATION was part of that.


----------



## daveman

Lakhota said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Sadly, this is what we'll have...  We already see it on this board...
> 
> 
> Beginner's Bible Coloring Book! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Have Coffee Will Write » Blog Archive » HOW TO KEEP YOU CHILDREN IGNORANT&#8230;


From your second link (you know, the one with the spelling error):

[Update -- 1456, 24 March: I've been had. After doing further research, it now appears that the coloring book is a parody satire drawn and for sale by artist Derek Chatwood. My apologies to my readers for my failure to check first. I should have listened to my bullshit detector when it went off over the raptor vs peaceful dinosaur issue.​
The liberal blogger was stupid, and willing to believe anything as long as it bashed conservatives.  And you claim it's evidence of conservatives fighting education?

  Dumbass.


----------



## NYcarbineer

Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.

Therefore, it is a national interest.


----------



## NYcarbineer

This is why education is important:






Extremely important.  That the Right doesn't give a shit about education is just one more reason to keep them out of power.


----------



## Unkotare

NYcarbineer said:


> That the Right doesn't give a shit about education.






Dishonest lefty talking point.


----------



## editec

> According to a BusinessWeek analysis, college graduates aged 22 to 27 have fared worse than their older educated peers during the downturn. Two years ago, 84.4% of young grads had jobs, only somewhat lower than the 86.8% figure for college graduates aged 28 to 50. Since then, the employment gap between the two groups has almost doubled.


 
The Lost Generation - BusinessWeek

EDUCATION is NOT the problem.

This ECONOMY* is* the problem.


----------



## Contumacious

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



HUH?

What the fucketh?

Are you saying that people are invading you home school  and preventing you from teaching science to your progeny?!?!?!?!?!?

.


----------



## daveman

editec said:


> According to a BusinessWeek analysis, college graduates aged 22 to 27 have fared worse than their older educated peers during the downturn. Two years ago, 84.4% of young grads had jobs, only somewhat lower than the 86.8% figure for college graduates aged 28 to 50. Since then, the employment gap between the two groups has almost doubled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Lost Generation - BusinessWeek
> 
> EDUCATION is NOT the problem.
> 
> This ECONOMY* is* the problem.
Click to expand...

And the left bears a great deal of responsibility for the state of both.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to a BusinessWeek analysis, college graduates aged 22 to 27 have fared worse than their older educated peers during the downturn. Two years ago, 84.4% of young grads had jobs, only somewhat lower than the 86.8% figure for college graduates aged 28 to 50. Since then, the employment gap between the two groups has almost doubled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Lost Generation - BusinessWeek
> 
> EDUCATION is NOT the problem.
> 
> This ECONOMY* is* the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the left bears a great deal of responsibility for the state of both.
Click to expand...


Mmm...not so fast there buddy.

The Right bears just as much responsibility for the state of things than you would expect.

Otherwise the educated in this country would primarily be Right leaning. But surprisingly, not true.

Did you know more educated a person becomes, the more left leaning they are? Now, I can't help but imagine why that would be.


----------



## Unkotare

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Lost Generation - BusinessWeek
> 
> EDUCATION is NOT the problem.
> 
> This ECONOMY* is* the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> And the left bears a great deal of responsibility for the state of both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mmm...not so fast there buddy.
> 
> The Right bears just as much responsibility for the state of things than you would expect.
> 
> Otherwise the educated in this country would primarily be Right leaning. But surprisingly, not true.
> 
> Did you know more educated a person becomes, the more left leaning they are? Now, I can't help but imagine why that would be.
Click to expand...




I guess you took to the programming quite eagerly then.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Lost Generation - BusinessWeek
> 
> EDUCATION is NOT the problem.
> 
> This ECONOMY* is* the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> And the left bears a great deal of responsibility for the state of both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mmm...not so fast there buddy.
> 
> The Right bears just as much responsibility for the state of things than you would expect.
> 
> Otherwise the educated in this country would primarily be Right leaning. But surprisingly, not true.
> 
> Did you know more educated a person becomes, the more left leaning they are? Now, I can't help but imagine why that would be.
Click to expand...

Did you know mindlessly repeating leftist drivel is not a sign of intelligence?

Reality disagrees with your claim.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the left bears a great deal of responsibility for the state of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mmm...not so fast there buddy.
> 
> The Right bears just as much responsibility for the state of things than you would expect.
> 
> Otherwise the educated in this country would primarily be Right leaning. But surprisingly, not true.
> 
> Did you know more educated a person becomes, the more left leaning they are? Now, I can't help but imagine why that would be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you know mindlessly repeating leftist drivel is not a sign of intelligence?
> 
> Reality disagrees with your claim.
Click to expand...


I can do that too you know.

Professionals
Professionals, those who have a college education and whose work revolves around the conceptualization of ideas, have supported the Democratic Party by a slight majority since 2000. Between 1988 and 2000, professionals favored Democrats by a 12-percentage point margin. While the professional class was once a stronghold of the Republican Party, it has become increasingly split between the two parties, leaning in favor of the Democratic Party. The increasing support for Democratic candidates among professionals may be traced to the prevalence of social liberal values among this group.[23]
	Professionals, who are, roughly speaking, college-educated producers of services and ideas, used to be the most staunchly Republican of all occupational groups... now chiefly working for large corporations and bureaucracies rather than on their own, and heavily influenced by the environmental, civil-rights, and feminist movements  began to vote Democratic. In the four elections from 1988 to 2000, they backed Democrats by an average of 52 percent to 40 percent.	
A study on the political attitudes of medical students, for example, found that "U.S. medical students are considerably more likely to be liberal than conservative and are more likely to be liberal than are other young U.S. adults. Future U.S. physicians may be more receptive to liberal messages than conservative ones, and their political orientation may profoundly affect their health system attitudes."[24] Similar results are found for professors, who are more strongly inclined towards liberalism and the Democratic Party than other occupational groups.[22] The Democratic Party also has strong support among scientists, with 55% identifying as Democrats, 32% as Independents, and 6% as Republicans and 52% identifying as liberal, 35% as moderate, and 9% as conservative.[25]


Also, I'm not a leftist, I do my own damn research.


----------



## FA_Q2

editec said:


> WE declared war on the working classes decades ago.
> 
> Of course the war on EDUCATION was part of that.


With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education.  Why don't you try and actually get some.

I noticed that DontBeStupid ran away when his false talking points proved to be bullshit as well....


----------



## rdean

How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?


----------



## Lakhota

> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.



Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mmm...not so fast there buddy.
> 
> The Right bears just as much responsibility for the state of things than you would expect.
> 
> Otherwise the educated in this country would primarily be Right leaning. But surprisingly, not true.
> 
> Did you know more educated a person becomes, the more left leaning they are? Now, I can't help but imagine why that would be.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know mindlessly repeating leftist drivel is not a sign of intelligence?
> 
> Reality disagrees with your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can do that too you know.
> 
> Professionals
> Professionals, those who have a college education and whose work revolves around the conceptualization of ideas, have supported the Democratic Party by a slight majority since 2000. Between 1988 and 2000, professionals favored Democrats by a 12-percentage point margin. While the professional class was once a stronghold of the Republican Party, it has become increasingly split between the two parties, leaning in favor of the Democratic Party. The increasing support for Democratic candidates among professionals may be traced to the prevalence of social liberal values among this group.[23]
> 	Professionals, who are, roughly speaking, college-educated producers of services and ideas, used to be the most staunchly Republican of all occupational groups... now chiefly working for large corporations and bureaucracies rather than on their own, and heavily influenced by the environmental, civil-rights, and feminist movements  began to vote Democratic. In the four elections from 1988 to 2000, they backed Democrats by an average of 52 percent to 40 percent.	
> A study on the political attitudes of medical students, for example, found that "U.S. medical students are considerably more likely to be liberal than conservative and are more likely to be liberal than are other young U.S. adults. Future U.S. physicians may be more receptive to liberal messages than conservative ones, and their political orientation may profoundly affect their health system attitudes."[24] Similar results are found for professors, who are more strongly inclined towards liberalism and the Democratic Party than other occupational groups.[22] The Democratic Party also has strong support among scientists, with 55% identifying as Democrats, 32% as Independents, and 6% as Republicans and 52% identifying as liberal, 35% as moderate, and 9% as conservative.[25]
> 
> 
> Also, I'm not a leftist, I do my own damn research.
Click to expand...

You're citing that bullshit Pew Research poll about scientists.  

About the Survey | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press

About the Scientist Survey

Results for the scientist survey are based on 2,533 online interviews conducted from May 1 to June 14, 2009 with members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International. A sample of 9,998 members was drawn from the AAAS membership list excluding those who were not based in the United States or whose membership type identified them as primary or secondary-level educators.​
Only 2,533 respondents.  And they took out elementary and high-school teachers, leaving college professors. 

So this study also confirms something else conservatives have been saying for decades:  Academia is biased to the left.  

If you do your own research, you won't buy the Dem's Wiki page bullshit.


----------



## daveman

rdean said:


> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?


How can you insist that 3% of all colleges, Bible colleges, hand out more diplomas than the 97% of colleges that are secular?


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know mindlessly repeating leftist drivel is not a sign of intelligence?
> 
> Reality disagrees with your claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can do that too you know.
> 
> Professionals
> Professionals, those who have a college education and whose work revolves around the conceptualization of ideas, have supported the Democratic Party by a slight majority since 2000. Between 1988 and 2000, professionals favored Democrats by a 12-percentage point margin. While the professional class was once a stronghold of the Republican Party, it has become increasingly split between the two parties, leaning in favor of the Democratic Party. The increasing support for Democratic candidates among professionals may be traced to the prevalence of social liberal values among this group.[23]
> 	Professionals, who are, roughly speaking, college-educated producers of services and ideas, used to be the most staunchly Republican of all occupational groups... now chiefly working for large corporations and bureaucracies rather than on their own, and heavily influenced by the environmental, civil-rights, and feminist movements  began to vote Democratic. In the four elections from 1988 to 2000, they backed Democrats by an average of 52 percent to 40 percent.	
> A study on the political attitudes of medical students, for example, found that "U.S. medical students are considerably more likely to be liberal than conservative and are more likely to be liberal than are other young U.S. adults. Future U.S. physicians may be more receptive to liberal messages than conservative ones, and their political orientation may profoundly affect their health system attitudes."[24] Similar results are found for professors, who are more strongly inclined towards liberalism and the Democratic Party than other occupational groups.[22] The Democratic Party also has strong support among scientists, with 55% identifying as Democrats, 32% as Independents, and 6% as Republicans and 52% identifying as liberal, 35% as moderate, and 9% as conservative.[25]
> 
> 
> Also, I'm not a leftist, I do my own damn research.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're citing that bullshit Pew Research poll about scientists.
> 
> About the Survey | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press
> 
> About the Scientist Survey
> 
> Results for the scientist survey are based on 2,533 online interviews conducted from May 1 to June 14, 2009 with members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International. A sample of 9,998 members was drawn from the AAAS membership list excluding those who were not based in the United States or whose membership type identified them as primary or secondary-level educators.​
> Only 2,533 respondents.  And they took out elementary and high-school teachers, leaving college professors.
> 
> So this study also confirms something else conservatives have been saying for decades:  Academia is biased to the left.
> 
> If you do your own research, you won't buy the Dem's Wiki page bullshit.
Click to expand...


Oh I'm sorry, should I have quoted from your fair and unbiased conservapedia?


----------



## Unkotare

rdean said:


> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?




You mean like people who have won the Nobel Prize for Physics? They would not be "pro" science?


----------



## Unkotare

Lakhota said:


> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
Click to expand...




Cocktail Party Liberals like you declare anything that doesn't flatter your subjective views to be "war," but raise a stink if the term is applied in the manner it was intended. Fucking clowns.


----------



## Maple

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



That's why you need to support Mitt Romney, he knows how to create jobs, because he has created thousands in the private sector, he is the ONLY candidate that will deal effectively with China and the manipulation of their currency and the stealing of our product designs. He wants to bring manufactoring jobs back to the U.S in order to compete with the rest of the world and he IS the MAN who can get it done. Read his jobs plan, it is intense and detailed and after reading the pdf for 4 hours I am still not done. We can not just be a 100% service country, that's like we wash each other's cars and think that we are growing an economy, we are not, we are losing our competitive edge to China and other countries because they trade but they do not trade fairly. Mitt will insist on free and FAIR trade. Read his jobs plan, it is a long term plan not a short term stimulus.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

rdean said:


> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?



Not sure what you mean by magical creation, but I am a climate skeptic. That does not mean I deny climate change, I just doubt that the impact of climate change is going to wipe out life on Earth.


----------



## FA_Q2

Lakhota said:


> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
Click to expand...


Are you deaf to the call for proof or even an example.  The ones you attempted to give were already torn to pieces.  Since you cannot show anything you default to assuming you are right and it is so obvious.  Try actually showing this 'war.'


----------



## Wicked Jester

FA_Q2 said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you deaf to the call for proof or even an example.  The ones you attempted to give were already torn to pieces.  Since you cannot show anything you default to assuming you are right and it is so obvious.  Try actually showing this 'war.'
Click to expand...

He can't, PERIOD!.....And he knows it.


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## midcan5

"Thirty years ago, 10 percent of Californias general revenue fund went to higher education and 3 percent to prisons. Today nearly 11 percent goes to prisons and 8 percent to higher education."  Friedman/Mandelbaum in 'That Used To Be Us'

Education is a curious debate topic, does anyone doubt that education helps? Of course not. Does anyone doubt that a good education in America today cost lots? Of course not. But for whom and for why are the harder questions. If the bell curve applies to humankind and I think it does, what talents exist for those on the left side of the bell if our only goal is a piece of paper? And having managed people for over twenty five years, education is not a consistent indicator of accomplishment, potential, or even smarts. Education often means you sat in class because you were supposed to sit in class, college teachers today tell me there are Check schools - write the check, get the degree. 

How about people whose talents are more material oriented: artists, craft people, mechanics, construction, farming, massage (don't laugh), painting, music, acting, patience work like brick laying etc etc etc. Do they need college and 120k in bills? I'd hope they read and understand the responsibilities of a citizen in America but....

My wife teaches math and says lots simply can't grasp it, what do you do then? When I read the writing on this site, I wonder about English too, or at least good writing. And I admit lots of mistakes too. It seems to me if Americans supported America by contributing to it through taxes, by hiring Americans, by buying American, by realizing sometimes government has to build the nation and requires resources to do that, we would be fine. Education would take care of itself as it did for over a hundred years. Today Americans fight each other over stupid political ideologies that got us nowhere these past forty years. 

"The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden now spends nearly 4 percent of GDP on R&D, the highest ratio in the world today. On average, the Nordic nations spend 3 percent of GDP on R&D, compared with around 2 percent in the English-speaking nations." Jeffrey D. Sachs  The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology: Scientific American


----------



## Photonic

midcan5 said:


> "Thirty years ago, 10 percent of California&#8217;s general revenue fund went to higher education and 3 percent to prisons. Today nearly 11 percent goes to prisons and 8 percent to higher education."  Friedman/Mandelbaum in 'That Used To Be Us'
> 
> Education is a curious debate topic, does anyone doubt that education helps? Of course not. Does anyone doubt that a good education in America today cost lots? Of course not. But for whom and for why are the harder questions. If the bell curve applies to humankind and I think it does, what talents exist for those on the left side of the bell if our only goal is a piece of paper? And having managed people for over twenty five years, education is not a consistent indicator of accomplishment, potential, or even smarts. Education often means you sat in class because you were supposed to sit in class, college teachers today tell me there are Check schools - write the check, get the degree.
> 
> How about people whose talents are more material oriented: artists, craft people, mechanics, construction, farming, massage (don't laugh), painting, music, acting, patience work like brick laying etc etc etc. Do they need college and 120k in bills? I'd hope they read and understand the responsibilities of a citizen in America but....
> 
> My wife teaches math and says lots simply can't grasp it, what do you do then? When I read the writing on this site, I wonder about English too, or at least good writing. And I admit lots of mistakes too. It seems to me if Americans supported America by contributing to it through taxes, by hiring Americans, by buying American, by realizing sometimes government has to build the nation and requires resources to do that, we would be fine. Education would take care of itself as it did for over a hundred years. Today Americans fight each other over stupid political ideologies that got us nowhere these past forty years.
> 
> "The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden now spends nearly 4 percent of GDP on R&D, the highest ratio in the world today. On average, the Nordic nations spend 3 percent of GDP on R&D, compared with around 2 percent in the English-speaking nations." Jeffrey D. Sachs  The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology: Scientific American



Want to know something else interesting? Denmark has a better aerospace industry than us because of that. Also, what happens to those people who go into technical fields, who are now being boned because they can no longer afford education? Those Physicists, engineers, biologists, doctors, etc. What happens to them?


----------



## rdean

Photonic said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Thirty years ago, 10 percent of Californias general revenue fund went to higher education and 3 percent to prisons. Today nearly 11 percent goes to prisons and 8 percent to higher education."  Friedman/Mandelbaum in 'That Used To Be Us'
> 
> Education is a curious debate topic, does anyone doubt that education helps? Of course not. Does anyone doubt that a good education in America today cost lots? Of course not. But for whom and for why are the harder questions. If the bell curve applies to humankind and I think it does, what talents exist for those on the left side of the bell if our only goal is a piece of paper? And having managed people for over twenty five years, education is not a consistent indicator of accomplishment, potential, or even smarts. Education often means you sat in class because you were supposed to sit in class, college teachers today tell me there are Check schools - write the check, get the degree.
> 
> How about people whose talents are more material oriented: artists, craft people, mechanics, construction, farming, massage (don't laugh), painting, music, acting, patience work like brick laying etc etc etc. Do they need college and 120k in bills? I'd hope they read and understand the responsibilities of a citizen in America but....
> 
> My wife teaches math and says lots simply can't grasp it, what do you do then? When I read the writing on this site, I wonder about English too, or at least good writing. And I admit lots of mistakes too. It seems to me if Americans supported America by contributing to it through taxes, by hiring Americans, by buying American, by realizing sometimes government has to build the nation and requires resources to do that, we would be fine. Education would take care of itself as it did for over a hundred years. Today Americans fight each other over stupid political ideologies that got us nowhere these past forty years.
> 
> "The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden now spends nearly 4 percent of GDP on R&D, the highest ratio in the world today. On average, the Nordic nations spend 3 percent of GDP on R&D, compared with around 2 percent in the English-speaking nations." Jeffrey D. Sachs  The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology: Scientific American
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to know something else interesting? Denmark has a better aerospace industry than us because of that. Also, what happens to those people who go into technical fields, who are now being boned because they can no longer afford education? Those Physicists, engineers, biologists, doctors, etc. What happens to them?
Click to expand...


We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.


----------



## Wicked Jester

rdean said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Thirty years ago, 10 percent of Californias general revenue fund went to higher education and 3 percent to prisons. Today nearly 11 percent goes to prisons and 8 percent to higher education."  Friedman/Mandelbaum in 'That Used To Be Us'
> 
> Education is a curious debate topic, does anyone doubt that education helps? Of course not. Does anyone doubt that a good education in America today cost lots? Of course not. But for whom and for why are the harder questions. If the bell curve applies to humankind and I think it does, what talents exist for those on the left side of the bell if our only goal is a piece of paper? And having managed people for over twenty five years, education is not a consistent indicator of accomplishment, potential, or even smarts. Education often means you sat in class because you were supposed to sit in class, college teachers today tell me there are Check schools - write the check, get the degree.
> 
> How about people whose talents are more material oriented: artists, craft people, mechanics, construction, farming, massage (don't laugh), painting, music, acting, patience work like brick laying etc etc etc. Do they need college and 120k in bills? I'd hope they read and understand the responsibilities of a citizen in America but....
> 
> My wife teaches math and says lots simply can't grasp it, what do you do then? When I read the writing on this site, I wonder about English too, or at least good writing. And I admit lots of mistakes too. It seems to me if Americans supported America by contributing to it through taxes, by hiring Americans, by buying American, by realizing sometimes government has to build the nation and requires resources to do that, we would be fine. Education would take care of itself as it did for over a hundred years. Today Americans fight each other over stupid political ideologies that got us nowhere these past forty years.
> 
> "The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden now spends nearly 4 percent of GDP on R&D, the highest ratio in the world today. On average, the Nordic nations spend 3 percent of GDP on R&D, compared with around 2 percent in the English-speaking nations." Jeffrey D. Sachs  The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology: Scientific American
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to know something else interesting? Denmark has a better aerospace industry than us because of that. Also, what happens to those people who go into technical fields, who are now being boned because they can no longer afford education? Those Physicists, engineers, biologists, doctors, etc. What happens to them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.
Click to expand...

Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!


----------



## rdean

Wicked Jester said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to know something else interesting? Denmark has a better aerospace industry than us because of that. Also, what happens to those people who go into technical fields, who are now being boned because they can no longer afford education? Those Physicists, engineers, biologists, doctors, etc. What happens to them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!
Click to expand...


That's because Democrats will work for an education.  The Republican base lives off Social Security and Medicare.  Look at Republican get togethers.  It's a "depends" party.


----------



## FA_Q2

rdean said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.
> 
> 
> 
> Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because Democrats will work for an education.  The Republican base lives off Social Security and Medicare.  Look at Republican get togethers.  It's a "depends" party.
Click to expand...


And the proof for this war and this idea...

Oh yea, you said so.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can do that too you know.
> 
> Professionals
> Professionals, those who have a college education and whose work revolves around the conceptualization of ideas, have supported the Democratic Party by a slight majority since 2000. Between 1988 and 2000, professionals favored Democrats by a 12-percentage point margin. While the professional class was once a stronghold of the Republican Party, it has become increasingly split between the two parties, leaning in favor of the Democratic Party. The increasing support for Democratic candidates among professionals may be traced to the prevalence of social liberal values among this group.[23]
> 	Professionals, who are, roughly speaking, college-educated producers of services and ideas, used to be the most staunchly Republican of all occupational groups... now chiefly working for large corporations and bureaucracies rather than on their own, and heavily influenced by the environmental, civil-rights, and feminist movements  began to vote Democratic. In the four elections from 1988 to 2000, they backed Democrats by an average of 52 percent to 40 percent.	
> A study on the political attitudes of medical students, for example, found that "U.S. medical students are considerably more likely to be liberal than conservative and are more likely to be liberal than are other young U.S. adults. Future U.S. physicians may be more receptive to liberal messages than conservative ones, and their political orientation may profoundly affect their health system attitudes."[24] Similar results are found for professors, who are more strongly inclined towards liberalism and the Democratic Party than other occupational groups.[22] The Democratic Party also has strong support among scientists, with 55% identifying as Democrats, 32% as Independents, and 6% as Republicans and 52% identifying as liberal, 35% as moderate, and 9% as conservative.[25]
> 
> 
> Also, I'm not a leftist, I do my own damn research.
> 
> 
> 
> You're citing that bullshit Pew Research poll about scientists.
> 
> About the Survey | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press
> 
> About the Scientist Survey
> 
> Results for the scientist survey are based on 2,533 online interviews conducted from May 1 to June 14, 2009 with members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International. A sample of 9,998 members was drawn from the AAAS membership list excluding those who were not based in the United States or whose membership type identified them as primary or secondary-level educators.​
> Only 2,533 respondents.  And they took out elementary and high-school teachers, leaving college professors.
> 
> So this study also confirms something else conservatives have been saying for decades:  Academia is biased to the left.
> 
> If you do your own research, you won't buy the Dem's Wiki page bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I'm sorry, should I have quoted from your fair and unbiased conservapedia?
Click to expand...


I don't cite conservapedia.  And I showed you the poll was skewed.

But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of your "independent thinking".


----------



## daveman

rdean said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.
> 
> 
> 
> Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because Democrats will work for an education.  The Republican base lives off Social Security and Medicare.  Look at Republican get togethers.  It's a "depends" party.
Click to expand...


Repeating your astoundingly stupid ideas and claiming they're true only proves that you're astoundingly stupid.


----------



## grunt11b

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



 I make over $50,000 a year in West Virginia, without any college background. $50,000 a year here is like making $80,000+ in alot of other parts of the country. Fuck college, it only indoctrinates anyways. They've lowered the collegiate standard so low anymore that morons can get in and make it, and then 4 years later you see them flipping burgers at mcdonalds wondering what the hell happened.


----------



## grunt11b

Jarhead said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
Click to expand...


 I think you're wrong, he is not duped by it, he is one of the ones preaching the rhetoric for others to be duped. It's an election year, plan to hear much more of this from him.


----------



## Mr. H.

If you're willing to travel, live out of your car, and bust your ass for 80 hours a week the oil and gas industry is hiring anyone and everyone. They are competing for jobs- skilled, unskilled, educated, uneducated. They can not fill positions because no one wants to work. They'd rather sit on their asses and collect unemployment. That's not conjecture it's fact.


----------



## grunt11b

ClosedCaption said:


> I think Warrior is a auto response bot.  No matter the topic he'll reply the same way



 At least he replies with substance and puts into the debate actual intellect instead of insults like you just posted.


----------



## grunt11b

The Rabbi said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only 6% of scientists are Republicans.  Fact!
Click to expand...


 Which might explain why America ranks so low scientifically these days.


----------



## grunt11b

Douger said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> Grass cutter, car washer, military meathead, cop, wackin off at Wackenhut, Walmart shelf stocker.
> The murkin dream.
Click to expand...


 It's funny you mention that, because I see alot of college grads doing these exact same jobs. They vote for Obama, and then wonder why there are no jobs to get after college, talk about cutting your own fucking throats. Dumbass people deserve a dumbass president.


----------



## grunt11b

Jarhead said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Warrior is a auto response bot.  No matter the topic he'll reply the same way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> his response was informative and directly addresses the topic at hand.
> Why do you dismiss it with criticism and without debate?
Click to expand...


 Because liberals have no substance or facts to actually debate with.


----------



## grunt11b

DontBeStupid said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> rdean asked the question based on the fact that some people want to cut spending on education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, if he wanted to ask about cuts in spending for education, I think he would have asked about cuts in spending for education. There are many in this country waging a war on Education as a concept, and Science in particular. Trying to re-write history text books or trying to force Intelligent Design into schools as hard science, has nothing to do with spending cuts.
> 
> So why do it?
Click to expand...


 In all honesty, nothing in the constitution gives the federal government any authority to create and maintain a department of education. Education is a states issue. So fuck the DOE. It should be done away with instead of costing taxpayers $500,000,000,000 a year to indoctrinate our kids with. And yes, that is 9 zeros that are wasted.


----------



## grunt11b

DontBeStupid said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, if he wanted to ask about cuts in spending for education, I think he would have asked about cuts in spending for education. There are many in this country waging a war on Education as a concept, and Science in particular. Trying to re-write history text books or trying to force Intelligent Design into schools as hard science, has nothing to do with spending cuts.
> 
> So why do it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there are many?
> 
> I dont think many.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Climate Change
> Evolution
> Stem Cell Research
> American History
> 
> Have all come under attack in recent years. Not to mention the basic idea of Logic has pretty much been tossed out the window by anyone the Right. But not so much the specifics is what's the problem, but the fact that these attacks attack the process.
> 
> For example, many "conservatives" like to attack the Theory of Evolution, saying "Well, it's just a theory. I have a theory too." They don't want to acknowledge that in the Scientific Community, a Theory has weight. It's been tested and has evidence supporting it. It's been upgraded from a Hypothesis (remember that word?). Calling "Intelligent Design" a "Theory" the same as the Theory of Evolution, is an attack on the Scientific Process.
> 
> If this keeps up, the Chinese will be inventing everything and we will be working for them.
Click to expand...




 the theory of evolution is just that, a theory that liberals have no facts to back up, but instead use the propaganda as a tool to convince themselves and others there is no god. I like ann coulters response to evolution. If you have time to read it, you might just learn something. 


> But that's not what the fossil record shows. We don't have fossils for any intermediate creatures in the process of evolving into something better.





> *Amid the hoots at Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry for saying there were "gaps" in the theory of evolution, the strongest evidence for Darwinism presented by these soi-disant rationalists was a 9-year-old boy quoted in The New York Times.
> 
> After his mother had pushed him in front of Perry on the campaign trail and made him ask if Perry believed in evolution, the trained seal beamed at his Wicked Witch of the West mother, saying, "Evolution, I think, is correct!"
> 
> That's the most extended discussion of Darwin's theory to appear in the mainstream media in a quarter-century. More people know the precepts of kabala than know the basic elements of Darwinism.
> 
> There's a reason the Darwin cult prefers catcalls to argument, even with a 9-year-old at the helm of their debate team.
> 
> Darwin's theory was that a process of random mutation, sex and death, allowing the "fittest" to survive and reproduce, and the less fit to die without reproducing, would, over the course of billions of years, produce millions of species out of inert, primordial goo.
> 
> The vast majority of mutations are deleterious to the organism, so if the mutations were really random, then for every mutation that was desirable, there ought to be a staggering number that are undesirable.
> 
> Otherwise, the mutations aren't random, they are deliberate -- and then you get into all the hocus-pocus about "intelligent design" and will probably start speaking in tongues and going to NASCAR races.
> 
> We also ought to find a colossal number of transitional organisms in the fossil record -- for example, a squirrel on its way to becoming a bat, or a bear becoming a whale. (Those are actual Darwinian claims.)
> 
> But that's not what the fossil record shows. We don't have fossils for any intermediate creatures in the process of evolving into something better. This is why the late Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard referred to the absence of transitional fossils as the "trade secret" of paleontology. (Lots of real scientific theories have "secrets.")
> 
> If you get your news from the American news media, it will come as a surprise to learn that when Darwin first published "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, his most virulent opponents were not fundamentalist Christians, but paleontologists.
> 
> Unlike high school biology teachers lying to your children about evolution, Darwin was at least aware of what the fossil record ought to show if his theory were correct. He said there should be "interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps."
> 
> But far from showing gradual change with a species slowly developing novel characteristics and eventually becoming another species, as Darwin hypothesized, the fossil record showed vast numbers of new species suddenly appearing out of nowhere, remaining largely unchanged for millions of years, and then disappearing.
> 
> Darwin's response was to say: Start looking! He blamed a fossil record that contradicted his theory on the "extreme imperfection of the geological record."
> 
> One hundred and fifty years later, that record is a lot more complete. We now have fossils for about a quarter of a million species.
> 
> But things have only gotten worse for Darwin.
> 
> Thirty years ago (before it was illegal to question Darwinism), Dr. David Raup, a geologist at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, said that despite the vast expansion of the fossil record: "The situation hasn't changed much."
> 
> To the contrary, fossil discoveries since Darwin's time have forced paleontologists to take back evidence of evolution. "Some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record," Raup said, "such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information."
> 
> The scant fossil record in Darwin's time had simply been arranged to show a Darwinian progression, but as more fossils were discovered, the true sequence turned out not to be Darwinian at all.
> 
> And yet, more than a century later, Darwin's groupies haven't evolved a better argument for the lack of fossil evidence.
> 
> To explain away the explosion of plants and animals during the Cambrian Period more than 500 million years ago, Darwiniacs asserted -- without evidence -- that there must have been soft-bodied creatures evolving like mad before then, but left no fossil record because of their squishy little microscopic bodies.
> 
> Then in 1984, "the dog ate our fossils" excuse collapsed, too. In a discovery The New York Times called "among the most spectacular in this century," Chinese paleontologists discovered fossils just preceding the Cambrian era.
> 
> Despite being soft-bodied microscopic creatures -- precisely the sort of animal the evolution cult claimed wouldn't fossilize and therefore deprived them of crucial evidence -- it turned out fossilization was not merely possible in the pre-Cambrian era, but positively ideal.
> 
> And yet the only thing paleontologists found there were a few worms. For 3 billion years, nothing but bacteria and worms, and then suddenly nearly all the phyla of animal life appeared within a narrow band of five million to 10 million years.
> 
> Even the eye simply materializes, fully formed, in the pre-Cambrian fossil record.
> 
> Jan Bergstrom, a paleontologist who examined the Chinese fossils, said the Cambrian Period was not "evolution," it was "a revolution."
> 
> So the Darwiniacs pretended they missed the newspaper that day.
> 
> Intelligent design scientists look at the evidence and develop their theories; Darwinists start with a theory and then rearrange the evidence.
> 
> These aren't scientists. They are religious fanatics for whom evolution must be true so that they can explain to themselves why they are here, without God. (It's an accident!)
> 
> Any evidence contradicting the primitive religion of Darwinism -- including, for example, the entire fossil record -- they explain away with non-scientific excuses like "the dog ate our fossils."*
Click to expand...

 Liberals' View of Darwin Unable to Evolve - Ann Coulter - Townhall Conservative


----------



## Moonglow

it depends on what u want to do, some career choices have to have a degree some not.


----------



## grunt11b

Photonic said:


> I just want to say this because it's absolutely true.
> 
> The less educated the society, the less they can compete on a global scale.
> 
> Education goes, the United States goes. Other countries will effortlessly pass us because we won't be able to remain ahead when we are so far behind.



 I beg to differ, according to the left, we have the most educated people in the world running our country right now, and they cannot figure out how to create jobs. They also are so educated that they have no idea what our constitution even says or know anything about economics 101. I would put a 12th grader up against Obama any day of the week in a 5 question trivia on economics and bet a paycheck that Obama loses.


----------



## grunt11b

DontBeStupid said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all jobs require an education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
Click to expand...


 Of course those jobs will be there, as long as the left doesn't tax the business owners out of the country that is.


----------



## grunt11b

Jarhead said:


> dontbestupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> not all jobs require an education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against education?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who is fighting education??????????
Click to expand...


 They have no idea, but in their minds somebody has to be. Because if someone isn't, then they themselves will have to get off their lazy asses and make it appear that someone is just so they could have a reason to bitch about it.


----------



## grunt11b

High_Gravity said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McDonalds and Churchs Chicken can always use more cooks.
Click to expand...


 I love chicken "Or yard bird as my grandma called it".


----------



## NYcarbineer

Conservatives have a dim view of education because they believe it indoctrinates young people with liberalism.


----------



## grunt11b

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> A question about jobs and what jobs will be available in the future and you think that has nothing to do with what's currently going on?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question was asked in a manner that it forces people to concede something that is not true. See if you follow this example.
> 
> 
> "With gay people wanting to force a homosexual lifestyle on heterosexuals why do support gay marriage?"
> 
> The first part of the question is not true.  By answering the question without addressing the conditional it appears that you are conceding the first part of the question. If you ask good questions then you will get good answers. If you ask rhetorical questions and implant half truth into the question then you must debate the merits of the question before you can argue the answer to the question.  Difficult to grasp?
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not at all difficult to grasp. But I think you're debating something that is already proven. Clearly there are people in this country fighting against Education, and I'm not talking about funding. Without an Education, your job prospects are limited. That's a fact.
> 
> So the question is valid. What kind of jobs will be available?
Click to expand...


 You are correct, there are people in this country fighting against education, and they are those people on the left.


> 17) Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism, and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in text books.


Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record


----------



## NYcarbineer

FA_Q2 said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you deaf to the call for proof or even an example.  The ones you attempted to give were already torn to pieces.  Since you cannot show anything you default to assuming you are right and it is so obvious.  Try actually showing this 'war.'
Click to expand...


You were asleep during the war on the teaching profession in Wisconsin?  The absurd textbook revisionism in Texas?  The endless war on the validity of the theory of Evolution?

Where have you been?


----------



## grunt11b

DontBeStupid said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> But clearly some do. Will those jobs still be there, for Americans, a generation from now after we've had decades of fighting against Education?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because you're choosing not to see it.
> 
> Creation and evolution in public education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Multiple examples of attacks on the Theory of Evolution. Some over turned, some not.
Click to expand...


 So now we are playing semantics? You guys on the left are so predictable.


----------



## grunt11b

High_Gravity said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone fighting against education.
> 
> 
> What i see is parental apathy in motivating THEIR children to do better. There was a time when parents would fight tooth and nail that their children did better then they did in life. Now... no one cares. Children are given everything they want the instant they want it. Working hard for something is no longer something the parents or children grasp.
> 
> So long as other countries are hungrier and more motivated then we are..... we will never get back on top.
> 
> As far as i can see... there is no lack of jobs. The jobs that are there are full. There is a glut of educated people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes...your last line is quite accurate.
> 
> technology is eliminating the jobs for the less educated.
> 
> Voice mail eliminates operators and receptionists
> email eliminates mailroom personnel
> CNC eliminates manual machinists
> 
> and in the meantime, more and more people are going to college.
> 
> SO now we have a large supply of college degreed people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I personally think we are getting to the point where there are alot of people but not enough jobs, like you said without an education there really isn't that much out there for you anymore, even the Military are cutting positions and its not that easy to just go and sign up like it was before. It looks like in the future unless you have a education in a critical field, life will be very dark for you.
Click to expand...


 I have to disagree, there are plenty of jobs out there for those without college degrees. Construction comes to mind, skilled positions like welding or carpentry. The jobs are there, there are just too many lazy people out there with their hands out to gubment looking for the next freebee. 
 Almost anyone could go to a technical school and learn a trade. College is not the all mighty answer, not in the least.


----------



## grunt11b

signelect said:


> We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:
> 
> 1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)
> 
> 2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)
> 
> 3.  People who make things happen (5%)
> 
> The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.



 Get rid of the department of education and put it back in the hands of the state, like it was meant to be. That's a start.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe we would do better with more vocational traing during high school. Not everyone  is a brainiac that is able to succeed at higher education.
Click to expand...


 So then we would have even more lower edumicated folks right? I disagree, we need to make it mandatory that kids study the harder courses like algebra and what not, instead of allowing them to opt out with basic studies. And hold the teachers accountable for making sure they learn it. Teachers today get off scott free for not doing there jobs, I know...my brothers a teacher and a damn good one at that, and he even says that some teachers need to be fired for not doing their jobs.


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe we would do better with more vocational traing during high school. Not everyone  is a brainiac that is able to succeed at higher education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So then we would have even more lower edumicated folks right? I disagree, we need to make it mandatory that kids study the harder courses like algebra and what not, instead of allowing them to opt out with basic studies. And hold the teachers accountable for making sure they learn it. Teachers today get off scott free for not doing there jobs, I know...my brothers a teacher and a damn good one at that, and he even says that some teachers need to be fired for not doing their jobs.
Click to expand...


today a vocationa school educates those already out of high school


----------



## grunt11b

deregulateTHIS said:


> I think education is essential for our survival.  Otherwise, we would still be grunting at each other and clubbing animals in the head for dinner.



 I love grunting and beating things with clubs. What guy doesn't? 
 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAhVmjptZMI]Tim Allen grunt collection - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## grunt11b

DontBeStupid said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it hard to believe that the concentration of this question was about jobs because the list of subjects you were worried about had very little to do with employment other than stem cells
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /sigh
> 
> I only listed them because people like you and others were claiming there was ZERO attacks on Education. Clearly, that is not the case. And you just did it yourself in a previous post calling Evolution "just a theory". Do you even know what a Scientific Theory is? What it takes to get that title? I don't think you do.
> 
> But again, taking these examples, taking the obvious push for less and less money to be spent on education, how can anyone claim there is ZERO attacks? That's choosing to be ignorant.
Click to expand...


 But in his defense you never actually stated who was attacking education. Is there a strawman in your future?


----------



## grunt11b

DontBeStupid said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> 
> putting condoms on cucumbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because we all know, that teaching kids to have safe sex is EXACTLY the same as telling them to run out and fuck five strangers.
> 
> Thanks for the example, ass hat.
Click to expand...


 It's not up to the teachers to teach my kids anything about sex. It is up to the parents to explain these things to their children, not the nanny states.


----------



## grunt11b

Photonic said:


> signelect said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:
> 
> 1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)
> 
> 2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)
> 
> 3.  People who make things happen (5%)
> 
> The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer to make things happen. Or else I would not have taken the research opportunity for the engineering Dept. of UC Long Beach, overseeing an experimental research component of the engineering dept. even though it's out of my field. I would not have patented a technology well over 40 years ahead of its time with collaborative research submitted to JPL in Pasadena.
> 
> Did you know out of China's educated population, almost 40% are going for engineering?
> 
> Want to know how many in the US go for engineering? 0.5% declared as an engineering major.
> 
> The numbers are actually slightly more for my field in Physics, at around 1.2%.
> 
> We are going so far backwards it's horrifying.
Click to expand...


 They have to go into engineering, how else would they get those jobs Clinton  sent over there?


----------



## grunt11b

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are so wrong it actually hurt my eyes to read the part about the Theory of evolution.
> 
> Which is in the same stage as the Theory of Relativity, and the Theory of Gravity, and the Theory of Light.
> 
> Sorry but it simply isn't true, and what you said constitutes a blindness to an educated view on what evolution actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?  All of the theories you listed have been observed, in real time.  The theory of evolution is of an entirely different nature than the rest of them.  Evolution is not based on observation of events in real time.
> 
> There are two theories of evolution.
> 
> One is the theory of evolution as the origin of species. It is based on speculation and circumstancial evidence.  Every piece of the theory is based on incomplete fossil records.  It has been tested, not in practice but in theory.
> 
> The second is the theory of evolution of a species.  Put a bunch of black rats in the dessert for few months and you will have a population of entirely white rats.
> 
> One is observed. One is based on circumstantial evidence.  Gravity, Relativity and Light are all observed.
> 
> So tell me. How much scrutiny have you applied to the science?  Do you know the shortcomings?  I can list them for both of them and I haven't really taken a stance but for you to sit there and tell me that I don't know enough? I've evaluated both and freely admit I haven't come to a conclusion.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hate to tell you but the Modern Theory of Evolution rests on Genetics.
> 
> Go ahead and prove genetics wrong.
Click to expand...


 If we evolved from monkeys, then why haven't the monkeys evolved with us?


----------



## grunt11b

Jarhead said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and while I'm on it, there has been observation of both the evolution of species and the origin of species based on the evolutionary process. All documented.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain the beginning of the universe? Sure, the big bang...but what was before the big bang?
> In other words...what went "Bang" and where was it right before it went "bang"?
> 
> Without an explanation of that, all else is still speculation.
> 
> My belief?
> 
> It was God's decision to develop the world to slowly evolve as it did.
> Evolution was God's plan all along.
> 
> Do I sound like a politician?
Click to expand...

 I agree with you, but still have to add this in here, the timing seemed right.
 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw9L0EAZ8Tc]God and his roommate - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> Conservatives have a dim view of education because they believe it indoctrinates young people with liberalism.


Not education in general -- but leftist-dominated "education" does.  

Any institution that uses Howard Zinn as a serious source of history should have all tax dollars cut off immediately.


----------



## grunt11b

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you noticed what you're doing?
> 
> "Climate change"
> 
> Who is debating that the climate is changing?  Up for debate is what is causing the climate change.  But we can't even decide how the climate is changing.  Global cooling? Global warming?  Just changing?
> 
> "Evolution"
> 
> Again.  You can represent it however you like but it is a theory. If you are all for the "scientific process" then you will understand that the "theory" of Evolution is in the same stage as the "theory" of Intelligent Design.  Both have been tested and both have proponents.  The fact that you happen to agree with Evolution doesn't make it any more or less valid to the guy after you.  The same goes for Intelligent Design.
> 
> Stem Cell research.  Embryonic Stem Cell Research, to be specific.  Some people actually view that as morally wrong.  There are people who are against Eugenics too.  That is a science.  It just happens to be one that most of us find to be immoral.  Funny thing huh?  Are you saying that if I regect the study of Euginics that I am against science?
> 
> "American History"
> 
> You would be surprised at how little history you were taught.  Most of what we get is a fourth generation washed down version of history.  History has been rewritten for all of history. If you want to learn anything about history go get a book written at the time of the event.
> 
> Funny, you didn't list Math, English, Geology or anything that doesn't have a raging political debate.  I wonder if your debate is political in nature...
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are so wrong it actually hurt my eyes to read the part about the Theory of evolution.
> 
> Which is in the same stage as the Theory of Relativity, and the Theory of Gravity, and the Theory of Light.
> 
> Sorry but it simply isn't true, and what you said constitutes a blindness to an educated view on what evolution actually is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?  All of the theories you listed have been observed, in real time.  The theory of evolution is of an entirely different nature than the rest of them.  Evolution is not based on observation of events in real time.
> 
> There are two theories of evolution.
> 
> One is the theory of evolution as the origin of species. It is based on speculation and circumstancial evidence.  Every piece of the theory is based on incomplete fossil records.  It has been tested, not in practice but in theory.
> 
> The second is the theory of evolution of a species.  Put a bunch of black rats in the dessert for few months and you will have a population of entirely white rats.
> 
> One is observed. One is based on circumstantial evidence.  Gravity, Relativity and Light are all observed.
> 
> So tell me. How much scrutiny have you applied to the science?  Do you know the shortcomings?  I can list them for both of them and I haven't really taken a stance but for you to sit there and tell me that I don't know enough? I've evaluated both and freely admit I haven't come to a conclusion.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hate to tell you but the Modern Theory of Evolution rests on Genetics.
> 
> Go ahead and prove genetics wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, well... then it is settled.  The fact remains that it is based on circumstance.
> 
> We test the genetic material from two species and speculate about how they might have common heredity.  Wow, what a surprise.  Organisims in the same environment have similar characteristics.  I'm familiar with the research and the theory. Much moreso than you might think.  I just don't think it is conclusive.  Here's a thought. Most people that fall on one side of the evolution/ID argument in the scientific community made up their minds before they applied the science.  *Both* arguments are tainted and *neither* are as reliable as they would have you believe.  The reality is we have no idea how we got here.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


 I do.
 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxPQhm_Aq-E]Knowing - Official Trailer [HD] - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## grunt11b

Texanmike said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> The debate has to do with whether or not it is approprate for the government to decide when a child should be exposed to sex. Many parents prefer they broach the subject with their children when they feel their childrn are ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! So all those abstinence only programs, they were really about making sure the parents could educate the children in a timely manner that the parent got to choose?
> 
> Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why teach anything?  Why not let the parents do it?  Why don't we have bike riding classes in school?  Ass whiping classes?  When did it not become the parents job to parent?
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


 I think it started with Carter.


----------



## daveman

grunt11b said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> 
> putting condoms on cucumbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because we all know, that teaching kids to have safe sex is EXACTLY the same as telling them to run out and fuck five strangers.
> 
> Thanks for the example, ass hat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not up to the teachers to teach my kids anything about sex. It is up to the parents to explain these things to their children, not the nanny states.
Click to expand...

What?!  Are you kidding?!  We can't have that!  The kids might be exposed to dangerous ideas like personal responsibility!  Pretty soon, they'd be thinking for themselves!

No, no, no.  That will not do.


----------



## grunt11b

Photonic said:


> DontBeStupid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you lack the ability to question that which you hold as sacred. First you are telling me that it is based on something that is accepted as truth.  Then you tell me that it isn't conclusive but I should treat it as something that is almost conclusive but not quite.  I think you cannot elloquently argue your point, likely do to a lack of real familiarity with the subject, so you make broad generalizations and don't deal with any of the topics I present. Instead you look for me to make syntactical errors and exploit them.  Have fun with that.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about syntax. Words have meaning. Especially in the Scientific Community. Saying that a Theory is "just a theory" and saying it's not "conclusive", clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about. Or you do, but you're using this as a veiled attempt to attack Science, like may others do. Regardless, my point has been proved now multiple times just within this thread.
> 
> So, since there is now a CLEARLY established fight against Education, both in this thread and in this country, care to answer the original question?
> 
> Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The kind of jobs that will be available are those that do not help this country compete against other countries.
> 
> Education loses, we all lose.
Click to expand...


 Other than military power to protect ourselves, who gives a rats ass about competing with other countries? Let's take care of our own and mind our own business until someone decides to fly planes into our buildings.


----------



## grunt11b

LordBrownTrout said:


> Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about?  I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education.  Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?
> 
> Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?



I FOUND ONE!!!! it took some time, but I found one member of the group Rdean says is doing this.


----------



## grunt11b

Dionysis said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you were serious about objecting to the state of education, you'd be complaining about the left, who insist that feelings are more important than grades, that self-esteem takes precedence over learning, and that no one can be a winner because that means there must be losers.
> 
> The left is dominated by emotionalism.  If you want real education, turn it over to conservatives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, let us all be Republican Fembots! No emotions, low self esteem only!
Click to expand...


 Noones saying not to have emotions, all we are saying is not to try to convince someone to give away more of their liberties while at the same time play their emotions.


----------



## grunt11b

rdean said:


> LordBrownTrout said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about?  I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education.  Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?
> 
> Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are called Republicans.
> 
> And they say things like:
> 
> Education is "just a piece of paper".
> 
> Too many are "over educated".
> 
> Scientists are liars who claim "Global Warming" to give themselves jobs.
> 
> Liberals don't want to teach the "controversy".
> 
> You know, stuff like that.
Click to expand...


----------



## Moonglow

> Why teach anything? Why not let the parents do it? Why don't we have bike riding classes in school? Ass whiping classes? When did it not become the parents job to parent?
> 
> Mike



so why don't u educate ur kids?


----------



## grunt11b

Photonic said:


> LilOlLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of jobs are you expecting? My nephew is MANAGER at AT&T, makes over $100,000 a year, with yearly bonuses of over $10,000 and he has only a GED with a few community college classes after he started to work. And he will retire at age 55 with full benefits and at 65 will collect social security.
> There are no jobs for college grads. All the jobs are low skilled jobs. A trade in high school are after will surfice now. Teachers are haveing to leave the country to find work. I know many successful people who only have a high school education. and many who have degrees and working at low skilled jobs.
> Education don't amount to hill of beans if there are no jobs.
> 8 million illegal aliens are working and some don't even speak english.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, but if teachers are leaving the country we are truly doomed. The United States will fail in a generation more rapidly than you could possibly imagine.
Click to expand...


 What shall we ever do without teachers!!?? Oh, the horrors of thinking such a thing!!! Someone save me!!!!!!!
 Noone is going anywhere, not as long as you have dipshits like obama paying off the teachers unions to keep failing teachers at their desks.


----------



## daveman

Moonglow said:


> Why teach anything? Why not let the parents do it? Why don't we have bike riding classes in school? Ass whiping classes? When did it not become the parents job to parent?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so why don't u educate ur kids?
Click to expand...

When we lived in a crappy school district, we did.

And let me guess:  Public school education for "u"?


----------



## NYcarbineer

grunt11b said:


> signelect said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:
> 
> 1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)
> 
> 2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)
> 
> 3.  People who make things happen (5%)
> 
> The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get rid of the department of education and put it back in the hands of the state, like it was meant to be. That's a start.
Click to expand...


Only if you believe education is not a vital national interest should it be left up to  the states.


----------



## grunt11b

Rozman said:


> We spend a fortune on education and the kids are becoming dumber.
> The lib response is and it's the same response for anything that's wrong...
> We need to spend more money on it ....



 We dont spend a fortune on education, we spend a fortune on teachers unions so that they can kick some of that money back into Democrat election campaigns "And some GOP to be honest". Money cannot buy smarts, proper curriculum and good teachers can though.


----------



## NYcarbineer

NYcarbineer said:


> This is why education is important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely important.  That the Right doesn't give a shit about education is just one more reason to keep them out of power.



These numbers are worth repeating.


----------



## grunt11b

Lakhota said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Sadly, this is what we'll have...  We already see it on this board...
> 
> 
> Beginner's Bible Coloring Book! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Have Coffee Will Write » Blog Archive » HOW TO KEEP YOU CHILDREN IGNORANT



 I think that was obamas entry level curriculum at Columbia University.


----------



## Moonglow

daveman said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why teach anything? Why not let the parents do it? Why don't we have bike riding classes in school? Ass whiping classes? When did it not become the parents job to parent?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so why don't u educate ur kids?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we lived in a crappy school district, we did.
> 
> And let me guess:  Public school education for "u"?
Click to expand...


private parochial okay with you? or do u find fault in everything?
Public education is okay, but I don't like all the violence

where did u go to school?


----------



## grunt11b

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who exactly is "fighting education"?
Click to expand...


 Noone, but it's still fun to make fun of these idiots.


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Sadly, this is what we'll have...  We already see it on this board...
> 
> 
> Beginner's Bible Coloring Book! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Have Coffee Will Write » Blog Archive » HOW TO KEEP YOU CHILDREN IGNORANT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that was obamas entry level curriculum at Columbia University.
Click to expand...


And yet you don't even have that much of a college education


----------



## grunt11b

Lakhota said:


> Who exactly is "fighting education"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, there's a TeaTard war against evolution, science, teachers, textbooks...
> 
> A TeaTard education is different from a Liberal education.  I feel sorry for homeschooled TeaTards.  Really, I do!
Click to expand...


 Ahhh, dont feel sorry for us, we will be sure to make sure your children and grandchildren are fed.
 Also, can you explain the difference in the educations? I am not sure I understood what you was saying, because the smartest man to ever be president has failed this country horribly, and he is a liberal, so can you explain how the teatard education is far less superior?


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who exactly is "fighting education"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Noone, but it's still fun to make fun of these idiots.
Click to expand...


and you got an education from where?


----------



## Intense

We live in a time where it is better to have more than one skill.


----------



## grunt11b

Unkotare said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who exactly is "fighting education"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, there's a TeaTard war against evolution, science, teachers, textbooks...
> 
> A TeaTard education is different from a Liberal education.  I feel sorry for homeschooled TeaTards.  Really, I do!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think - if you tried real hard - you could grow the fuck up a little and discuss something without the asinine playground "see the funny thing I did with that name? tee-hee" bullshit?
> 
> 
> Do you think?
> 
> YOU are not coming across as very well educated.
Click to expand...


 That's because they aren't.


----------



## grunt11b

Lakhota said:


> Do you think - if you tried real hard - you could grow the fuck up a little and discuss something without the asinine playground "see the funny thing I did with that name? tee-hee" bullshit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, someone else came up with TeaTard.  I saw it and liked it.  Would you prefer something like Kochsucker or Teabagger?
Click to expand...


 When you resort to name calling, you lost the debate. It was nice spanking you.


----------



## rdean

Wow, a lot of right wingers sure complain about schools and how bad they are.  And look at what they are doing to improve schools.  Introducing "magical creation", calling scientists liars and insisting science is a "faith".  They threw away a trillion dollars rebuilding a country that shouts "Death to America", but don't want to spend a dollar here.

The party with the fringe on top has gone bonkers.


----------



## grunt11b

NYcarbineer said:


> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Therefore, it is a national interest.



 No it's not, indoctrination of young minds by the left while in college is of vital interest and wellbeing of the lefts agenda. Nothing less. It's a states issue, and should be left to the states. That sir, is a FACT. Read the constitution, it won't kill you.


----------



## grunt11b

NYcarbineer said:


> This is why education is important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely important.  That the Right doesn't give a shit about education is just one more reason to keep them out of power.



 You morons keep failing to point out who on the right doesn't care. Can you please tell us all?, we are dying to know.


----------



## Moonglow

Intense said:


> We live in a time where it is better to have more than one skill.



no kidding, I learnd that during the last recession in the '80's.


----------



## grunt11b

rdean said:


> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?



 How can you "In your own thread" change the topic?


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why education is important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely important.  That the Right doesn't give a shit about education is just one more reason to keep them out of power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You morons keep failing to point out who on the right doesn't care. Can you please tell us all?, we are dying to know.
Click to expand...


and you went to public school?


----------



## grunt11b

Lakhota said:


> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
Click to expand...


 Is there a war? if so, who is waging it?


----------



## grunt11b

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like people who have won the Nobel Prize for Physics? They would not be "pro" science?
Click to expand...


 Or people who have won it for merely existing?
http://robtshepherd.tripod.com/barack-obama.jpg


----------



## Full-Auto

grunt11b said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is there a war? if so, who is waging it?
Click to expand...


It really involves dissatisfaction in accountability.  They dont want any!


----------



## grunt11b

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean by magical creation, but I am a climate skeptic. That does not mean I deny climate change, I just doubt that the impact of climate change is going to wipe out life on Earth.
Click to expand...


 Nobody denies climate change, any reasonable person knows it constantly changes. It's the cause of it that everyone argues about. It's above the liberal mind to understand that the earth heats up and cools down in cycles, and that every so many thousands of years the suns rotation around the earth brings it a little closer then normal. These are things the left try to use on the weak minded to pass job killing cap and trade bills. Also, we are in a cooling phase coming out of the ice age, another little known secret they try to hide. Al gores a fucking moron, that should never be allowed to speak again publicly about his ignorant bullshit. 
 Just my 2 cents.


----------



## grunt11b

midcan5 said:


> "Thirty years ago, 10 percent of Californias general revenue fund went to higher education and 3 percent to prisons. Today nearly 11 percent goes to prisons and 8 percent to higher education."  Friedman/Mandelbaum in 'That Used To Be Us'
> 
> Education is a curious debate topic, does anyone doubt that education helps? Of course not. Does anyone doubt that a good education in America today cost lots? Of course not. But for whom and for why are the harder questions. If the bell curve applies to humankind and I think it does, what talents exist for those on the left side of the bell if our only goal is a piece of paper? And having managed people for over twenty five years, education is not a consistent indicator of accomplishment, potential, or even smarts. Education often means you sat in class because you were supposed to sit in class, college teachers today tell me there are Check schools - write the check, get the degree.
> 
> How about people whose talents are more material oriented: artists, craft people, mechanics, construction, farming, massage (don't laugh), painting, music, acting, patience work like brick laying etc etc etc. Do they need college and 120k in bills? I'd hope they read and understand the responsibilities of a citizen in America but....
> 
> My wife teaches math and says lots simply can't grasp it, what do you do then? When I read the writing on this site, I wonder about English too, or at least good writing. And I admit lots of mistakes too. It seems to me if Americans supported America by contributing to it through taxes, by hiring Americans, by buying American, by realizing sometimes government has to build the nation and requires resources to do that, we would be fine. Education would take care of itself as it did for over a hundred years. Today Americans fight each other over stupid political ideologies that got us nowhere these past forty years.
> 
> "The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden now spends nearly 4 percent of GDP on R&D, the highest ratio in the world today. On average, the Nordic nations spend 3 percent of GDP on R&D, compared with around 2 percent in the English-speaking nations." Jeffrey D. Sachs  The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology: Scientific American



 I dont feel sorry for california, those dumbasses keep electing the same failures in year in and year out, they deserve what they get.


----------



## grunt11b

rdean said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Thirty years ago, 10 percent of Californias general revenue fund went to higher education and 3 percent to prisons. Today nearly 11 percent goes to prisons and 8 percent to higher education."  Friedman/Mandelbaum in 'That Used To Be Us'
> 
> Education is a curious debate topic, does anyone doubt that education helps? Of course not. Does anyone doubt that a good education in America today cost lots? Of course not. But for whom and for why are the harder questions. If the bell curve applies to humankind and I think it does, what talents exist for those on the left side of the bell if our only goal is a piece of paper? And having managed people for over twenty five years, education is not a consistent indicator of accomplishment, potential, or even smarts. Education often means you sat in class because you were supposed to sit in class, college teachers today tell me there are Check schools - write the check, get the degree.
> 
> How about people whose talents are more material oriented: artists, craft people, mechanics, construction, farming, massage (don't laugh), painting, music, acting, patience work like brick laying etc etc etc. Do they need college and 120k in bills? I'd hope they read and understand the responsibilities of a citizen in America but....
> 
> My wife teaches math and says lots simply can't grasp it, what do you do then? When I read the writing on this site, I wonder about English too, or at least good writing. And I admit lots of mistakes too. It seems to me if Americans supported America by contributing to it through taxes, by hiring Americans, by buying American, by realizing sometimes government has to build the nation and requires resources to do that, we would be fine. Education would take care of itself as it did for over a hundred years. Today Americans fight each other over stupid political ideologies that got us nowhere these past forty years.
> 
> "The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden now spends nearly 4 percent of GDP on R&D, the highest ratio in the world today. On average, the Nordic nations spend 3 percent of GDP on R&D, compared with around 2 percent in the English-speaking nations." Jeffrey D. Sachs  The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology: Scientific American
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to know something else interesting? Denmark has a better aerospace industry than us because of that. Also, what happens to those people who go into technical fields, who are now being boned because they can no longer afford education? Those Physicists, engineers, biologists, doctors, etc. What happens to them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.
Click to expand...


Another statement you cannot back up I presume? You're full of them today.


----------



## grunt11b

rdean said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.
> 
> 
> 
> Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because Democrats will work for an education.  The Republican base lives off Social Security and Medicare.  Look at Republican get togethers.  It's a "depends" party.
Click to expand...


 If that where true the democrats would be doing what they could to either reform or do away with such entitlements, but nope, they defend them to the death, because it is the democrat base that rely on such handouts and will vote democrat accordingly as long as they are promised more.


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's because Democrats will work for an education.  The Republican base lives off Social Security and Medicare.  Look at Republican get togethers.  It's a "depends" party.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that where true the democrats would be doing what they could to either reform or do away with such entitlements, but nope, they defend them to the death, because it is the democrat base that rely on such handouts and will vote democrat accordingly as long as they are promised more.
Click to expand...


and did u attend public school?


----------



## grunt11b

NYcarbineer said:


> Conservatives have a dim view of education because they believe it indoctrinates young people with liberalism.



 Only in some states. Not all. Texas would be a great state for a child to be educated, Massachusetts not so much. A conservative state legislature would prevent the school curriculum from being changed into a left wing ideology taught monstrosity. I believe in teaching kids what they need to be taught, and let them judge for themselves later on which side they would like to be on.


----------



## Photonic

grunt11b said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?  All of the theories you listed have been observed, in real time.  The theory of evolution is of an entirely different nature than the rest of them.  Evolution is not based on observation of events in real time.
> 
> There are two theories of evolution.
> 
> One is the theory of evolution as the origin of species. It is based on speculation and circumstancial evidence.  Every piece of the theory is based on incomplete fossil records.  It has been tested, not in practice but in theory.
> 
> The second is the theory of evolution of a species.  Put a bunch of black rats in the dessert for few months and you will have a population of entirely white rats.
> 
> One is observed. One is based on circumstantial evidence.  Gravity, Relativity and Light are all observed.
> 
> So tell me. How much scrutiny have you applied to the science?  Do you know the shortcomings?  I can list them for both of them and I haven't really taken a stance but for you to sit there and tell me that I don't know enough? I've evaluated both and freely admit I haven't come to a conclusion.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to tell you but the Modern Theory of Evolution rests on Genetics.
> 
> Go ahead and prove genetics wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If we evolved from monkeys, then why haven't the monkeys evolved with us?
Click to expand...


How about educating yourself on the topic before providing absolutely meaningless and uneducated copy paste arguments?


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe we would do better with more vocational traing during high school. Not everyone  is a brainiac that is able to succeed at higher education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So then we would have even more lower edumicated folks right? I disagree, we need to make it mandatory that kids study the harder courses like algebra and what not, instead of allowing them to opt out with basic studies. And hold the teachers accountable for making sure they learn it. Teachers today get off scott free for not doing there jobs, I know...my brothers a teacher and a damn good one at that, and he even says that some teachers need to be fired for not doing their jobs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> today a vocationa school educates those already out of high school
Click to expand...


 I know this and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as people are trying to work I am all about it, it's the lazy fucks who rely on someone else to pull their weight that I cant stand.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> Why teach anything? Why not let the parents do it? Why don't we have bike riding classes in school? Ass whiping classes? When did it not become the parents job to parent?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so why don't u educate ur kids?
Click to expand...


 In some states it's illegal to home school your children. The leftists like it that way.


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why teach anything? Why not let the parents do it? Why don't we have bike riding classes in school? Ass whiping classes? When did it not become the parents job to parent?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so why don't u educate ur kids?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In some states it's illegal to home school your children. The leftists like it that way.
Click to expand...


I've homeschool 2 out of 4 children, and they were religion based.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?  

They become Democrats


----------



## grunt11b

NYcarbineer said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> signelect said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all agree that education is a mess but we don't agree on what to do.  There are three kinds of people in the world:
> 
> 1.  People who watch what happens and reports(47.5%)
> 
> 2.  People who wonder what happened and do nothing (47.5%)
> 
> 3.  People who make things happen (5%)
> 
> The question is which are you, I have not read one suggestion of how to fix it just who to blame for it.  Looks like 1 or 2 for most of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get rid of the department of education and put it back in the hands of the state, like it was meant to be. That's a start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only if you believe education is not a vital national interest should it be left up to  the states.
Click to expand...


 Wrong again, the states could and DID do a better job at educating our children then big brother. Look at the history of this country, up until the DOE was created this country boomed, only after it was created did we see a steep decline in quality students and people with common sense. 
 A video for anyone who cares to watch it.
 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzXyM5tKok4]Adam Schaeffer on scrapping the Dept. of Education - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> so why don't u educate ur kids?
> 
> 
> 
> When we lived in a crappy school district, we did.
> 
> And let me guess:  Public school education for "u"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> private parochial okay with you? or do u find fault in everything?
> Public education is okay, but I don't like all the violence
> 
> where did u go to school?
Click to expand...


 I went to hard knocks university, and came out without a bruise.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, this is what we'll have...  We already see it on this board...
> 
> 
> Beginner's Bible Coloring Book! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Have Coffee Will Write » Blog Archive » HOW TO KEEP YOU CHILDREN IGNORANT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that was obamas entry level curriculum at Columbia University.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet you don't even have that much of a college education
Click to expand...


 It doesn't take one to have enough common sense to know right from wrong, and to know what ails this economy. It's funny how those on the left hold people with college on a pedestool, but yet those same people are the ones destroying the country, while lowly little insignificant non college folk like myself know how to balance my check book and spend within my means for my family. I make a very good living for myself, even though my college was limited to 1 course here and there while in the army, and those courses where nothing significant. 
 I work for the Government, and took a 2 year pay freeze and stand to take another 3 more years pay freeze should the GOP get elected, and you know what? I am voting GOP, because I will sacrifice that little bit of money to save my country from this monstrosity, because  I love my kids and this country more then I love that paycheck. Can liberals do the same? I doubt it, they are the reason we are in this mess to begin with.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who exactly is "fighting education"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noone, but it's still fun to make fun of these idiots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and you got an education from where?
Click to expand...


 Your academic pedigree does not outweigh the strength of my argument. Sorry, you lose.


----------



## grunt11b

rdean said:


> Wow, a lot of right wingers sure complain about schools and how bad they are.  And look at what they are doing to improve schools.  Introducing "magical creation", calling scientists liars and insisting science is a "faith".  They threw away a trillion dollars rebuilding a country that shouts "Death to America", but don't want to spend a dollar here.
> 
> The party with the fringe on top has gone bonkers.



 You're an idiot that requires no more attention in this thread.


----------



## grunt11b

Photonic said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to tell you but the Modern Theory of Evolution rests on Genetics.
> 
> Go ahead and prove genetics wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we evolved from monkeys, then why haven't the monkeys evolved with us?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How about educating yourself on the topic before providing absolutely meaningless and uneducated copy paste arguments?
Click to expand...


 I understand you cannot defeat my rebuttal, it's okay. I am right, you are wrong. Also, it wasn't copy paste, it was all me.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> so why don't u educate ur kids?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In some states it's illegal to home school your children. The leftists like it that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've homeschool 2 out of 4 children, and they were religion based.
Click to expand...


 Which is perfectly legal in your state I presume. All I am saying it's not like that in all states.


----------



## grunt11b

CrusaderFrank said:


> Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?
> 
> They become Democrats


HAHAHAHA!!!!


----------



## Photonic

grunt11b said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we evolved from monkeys, then why haven't the monkeys evolved with us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about educating yourself on the topic before providing absolutely meaningless and uneducated copy paste arguments?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I understand you cannot defeat my rebuttal, it's okay. I am right, you are wrong. Also, it wasn't copy paste, it was all me.
Click to expand...


No, you are actually repeating the same cyclical argument repeated by every person on Earth who is uneducated on the topic of Evolution.

Your rebuttal doesn't even need to be defeated, it's self defeating. I can sit here and watch it go poof.

There it just did. Care to make up another uneducated point on a subject you so obviously know nothing about?


----------



## NYcarbineer

grunt11b said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why education is important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely important.  That the Right doesn't give a shit about education is just one more reason to keep them out of power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You morons keep failing to point out who on the right doesn't care. Can you please tell us all?, we are dying to know.
Click to expand...


Who on the right doesn't care?  You want me to point someone out?

How about pointing out YOU...

*Me:

Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.

Your response:

No it's not*

lolol


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we lived in a crappy school district, we did.
> 
> And let me guess:  Public school education for "u"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> private parochial okay with you? or do u find fault in everything?
> Public education is okay, but I don't like all the violence
> 
> where did u go to school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went to hard knocks university, and came out without a bruise.
Click to expand...


I went to the school of hard knockers.
So you never got a formal education?


----------



## grunt11b

Photonic said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about educating yourself on the topic before providing absolutely meaningless and uneducated copy paste arguments?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand you cannot defeat my rebuttal, it's okay. I am right, you are wrong. Also, it wasn't copy paste, it was all me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, you are actually repeating the same cyclical argument repeated by every person on Earth who is uneducated on the topic of Evolution.
> 
> Your rebuttal doesn't even need to be defeated, it's self defeating. I can sit here and watch it go poof.
> 
> There it just did. Care to make up another uneducated point on a subject you so obviously know nothing about?
Click to expand...


 If it can't be proven either way, is it really an uneducated point? And unless you know for a fact either way, how do you figure to be the resident expert on such matters?


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> Noone, but it's still fun to make fun of these idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and you got an education from where?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your academic pedigree does not outweigh the strength of my argument. Sorry, you lose.
Click to expand...


bad dodge, do u do any shuffles?


----------



## grunt11b

NYcarbineer said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why education is important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely important.  That the Right doesn't give a shit about education is just one more reason to keep them out of power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You morons keep failing to point out who on the right doesn't care. Can you please tell us all?, we are dying to know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who on the right doesn't care?  You want me to point someone out?
> 
> How about pointing out YOU...
> 
> *Me:
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Your response:
> 
> No it's not*
> 
> lolol
Click to expand...


 Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college. 
 And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> private parochial okay with you? or do u find fault in everything?
> Public education is okay, but I don't like all the violence
> 
> where did u go to school?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went to hard knocks university, and came out without a bruise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went to the school of hard knockers.
> So you never got a formal education?
Click to expand...


 I love knockers.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> and you got an education from where?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your academic pedigree does not outweigh the strength of my argument. Sorry, you lose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> bad dodge, do u do any shuffles?
Click to expand...


 Only this one.
 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBiHysKnvGs]The Curly Shuffle - Jump &#39;N&#39; The Saddle&#39;s version - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> You morons keep failing to point out who on the right doesn't care. Can you please tell us all?, we are dying to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who on the right doesn't care?  You want me to point someone out?
> 
> How about pointing out YOU...
> 
> *Me:
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Your response:
> 
> No it's not*
> 
> lolol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college.
> And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.
Click to expand...


the immagrants that got off Ellis Island did not have to need a further education because there was no such thing as a technology revolution.


----------



## grunt11b

Moonglow said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who on the right doesn't care?  You want me to point someone out?
> 
> How about pointing out YOU...
> 
> *Me:
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Your response:
> 
> No it's not*
> 
> lolol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college.
> And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the immagrants that got off Ellis Island did not have to need a further education because there was no such thing as a technology revolution.
Click to expand...


 That still doesn't take away from the fact that people can make it, and earn good money without a college education. People who work in my field can make up to $150,000 a year, without college, if they try to. It's my goal, and I know I can reach it. 
 That may not sound like much in some parts of this country, but for where I live, that's alot of cabbage and my children would never want or need for anything.


----------



## Moonglow

grunt11b said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college.
> And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the immagrants that got off Ellis Island did not have to need a further education because there was no such thing as a technology revolution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That still doesn't take away from the fact that people can make it, and earn good money without a college education. People who work in my field can make up to $150,000 a year, without college, if they try to. It's my goal, and I know I can reach it.
> That may not sound like much in some parts of this country, but for where I live, that's alot of cabbage and my children would never want or need for anything.
Click to expand...


yes, but you can't be many things without a college education.


----------



## Photonic

grunt11b said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand you cannot defeat my rebuttal, it's okay. I am right, you are wrong. Also, it wasn't copy paste, it was all me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are actually repeating the same cyclical argument repeated by every person on Earth who is uneducated on the topic of Evolution.
> 
> Your rebuttal doesn't even need to be defeated, it's self defeating. I can sit here and watch it go poof.
> 
> There it just did. Care to make up another uneducated point on a subject you so obviously know nothing about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If it can't be proven either way, is it really an uneducated point? And unless you know for a fact either way, how do you figure to be the resident expert on such matters?
Click to expand...


I'm really not going to take the time to teach someone who doesn't want to learn but feels it's necessary to comment on topics he knows nothing about.

Educate yourself. I'll even give you some places to start.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8]Evolution - YouTube[/ame]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Introduction to evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <---This is a good one to start with.


I'll show you a few books you should read to understand the topic as well.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Ancestors-Tale-Pilgrimage-Dawn-Evolution/dp/061861916X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316391175&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution (9780618619160): Richard Dawkins: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/B004AYCWY4/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316391216&sr=1-6]Amazon.com: The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution: Richard Dawkins: Books[/ame]

(I'll admit these are both Richard Dawkins books, but that is because he is one of the greatest Evolutionary Biologists.)

I'm not an expert, I'm very well educated on the topic. It's easy for ignorant people to make comments about something they don't know about and believe they are right. That doesn't mean they are right, just ignorant of the facts. Evolution is about as well supported as the Theory of Gravity, the Theory of Electromagnetics, the Theory of Relativity. It is used in medicine, makes accurate and encompassing predictions and has supporting laws. Please take the time to read just a little bit.


----------



## Woyzeck

grunt11b said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?  All of the theories you listed have been observed, in real time.  The theory of evolution is of an entirely different nature than the rest of them.  Evolution is not based on observation of events in real time.
> 
> There are two theories of evolution.
> 
> One is the theory of evolution as the origin of species. It is based on speculation and circumstancial evidence.  Every piece of the theory is based on incomplete fossil records.  It has been tested, not in practice but in theory.
> 
> The second is the theory of evolution of a species.  Put a bunch of black rats in the dessert for few months and you will have a population of entirely white rats.
> 
> One is observed. One is based on circumstantial evidence.  Gravity, Relativity and Light are all observed.
> 
> So tell me. How much scrutiny have you applied to the science?  Do you know the shortcomings?  I can list them for both of them and I haven't really taken a stance but for you to sit there and tell me that I don't know enough? I've evaluated both and freely admit I haven't come to a conclusion.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to tell you but the Modern Theory of Evolution rests on Genetics.
> 
> Go ahead and prove genetics wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If we evolved from monkeys, then why haven't the monkeys evolved with us?
Click to expand...


We didn't evolve _from _monkeys we share a common ancestry _with _monkeys. Our evolutionary lines diverged from each other, and we evolved along a different pathway than they did.


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why education is important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely important.  That the Right doesn't give a shit about education is just one more reason to keep them out of power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These numbers are worth repeating.
Click to expand...

How do you square your claim with the fact that Republicans are more likely to have a 4-year degree than Democrats?

This ought to be funny.


----------



## daveman

Moonglow said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> so why don't u educate ur kids?
> 
> 
> 
> When we lived in a crappy school district, we did.
> 
> And let me guess:  Public school education for "u"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> private parochial okay with you? or do u find fault in everything?
> Public education is okay, but I don't like all the violence
> 
> where did u go to school?
Click to expand...

Public school in KY, then Vincennes University in IN.

And I learned how to spell.


----------



## daveman

grunt11b said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Therefore, it is a national interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not, indoctrination of young minds by the left while in college is of vital interest and wellbeing of the lefts agenda. Nothing less. It's a states issue, and should be left to the states. That sir, is a FACT. Read the constitution, it won't kill you.
Click to expand...

Don't do it, Carby!  It's a trap!


----------



## daveman

grunt11b said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that was obamas entry level curriculum at Columbia University.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you don't even have that much of a college education
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't take one to have enough common sense to know right from wrong, and to know what ails this economy. It's funny how those on the left hold people with college on a pedestool, but yet those same people are the ones destroying the country, while lowly little insignificant non college folk like myself know how to balance my check book and spend within my means for my family. I make a very good living for myself, even though my college was limited to 1 course here and there while in the army, and those courses where nothing significant.
> I work for the Government, and took a 2 year pay freeze and stand to take another 3 more years pay freeze should the GOP get elected, and you know what? I am voting GOP, because I will sacrifice that little bit of money to save my country from this monstrosity, because  I love my kids and this country more then I love that paycheck. Can liberals do the same? I doubt it, they are the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
Click to expand...

You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.

And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.

No, really!


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you don't even have that much of a college education
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't take one to have enough common sense to know right from wrong, and to know what ails this economy. It's funny how those on the left hold people with college on a pedestool, but yet those same people are the ones destroying the country, while lowly little insignificant non college folk like myself know how to balance my check book and spend within my means for my family. I make a very good living for myself, even though my college was limited to 1 course here and there while in the army, and those courses where nothing significant.
> I work for the Government, and took a 2 year pay freeze and stand to take another 3 more years pay freeze should the GOP get elected, and you know what? I am voting GOP, because I will sacrifice that little bit of money to save my country from this monstrosity, because  I love my kids and this country more then I love that paycheck. Can liberals do the same? I doubt it, they are the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.
> 
> And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.
> 
> No, really!
Click to expand...



Honestly, I think the best interest of the US is to leave the field of the 2 party system. It's causing the MOST problems since we need more centrist policies and we are getting fringe policies that shouldn't be making their way into our system.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't take one to have enough common sense to know right from wrong, and to know what ails this economy. It's funny how those on the left hold people with college on a pedestool, but yet those same people are the ones destroying the country, while lowly little insignificant non college folk like myself know how to balance my check book and spend within my means for my family. I make a very good living for myself, even though my college was limited to 1 course here and there while in the army, and those courses where nothing significant.
> I work for the Government, and took a 2 year pay freeze and stand to take another 3 more years pay freeze should the GOP get elected, and you know what? I am voting GOP, because I will sacrifice that little bit of money to save my country from this monstrosity, because  I love my kids and this country more then I love that paycheck. Can liberals do the same? I doubt it, they are the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.
> 
> And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.
> 
> No, really!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I think the best interest of the US is to leave the field of the 2 party system. It's causing the MOST problems since we need more centrist policies and we are getting fringe policies that shouldn't be making their way into our system.
Click to expand...

Well, you don't get to decide for other people.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.
> 
> And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.
> 
> No, really!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I think the best interest of the US is to leave the field of the 2 party system. It's causing the MOST problems since we need more centrist policies and we are getting fringe policies that shouldn't be making their way into our system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, you don't get to
> decide for other people.
Click to expand...

No shit. Never claimed too, never wanted too.

People should make their own decisions, but there isn't enough space for decisions to BE made in a 2 party system like this.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I think the best interest of the US is to leave the field of the 2 party system. It's causing the MOST problems since we need more centrist policies and we are getting fringe policies that shouldn't be making their way into our system.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you don't get to
> decide for other people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No shit. Never claimed too, never wanted too.
> 
> People should make their own decisions, but there isn't enough space for decisions to BE made in a 2 party system like this.
Click to expand...

Especially when one of the parties says people aren't capable of making their own decisions.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you don't get to
> decide for other people.
> 
> 
> 
> No shit. Never claimed too, never wanted too.
> 
> People should make their own decisions, but there isn't enough space for decisions to BE made in a 2 party system like this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Especially when one of the parties says people aren't capable of making their own decisions.
Click to expand...


Like both of them.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shit. Never claimed too, never wanted too.
> 
> People should make their own decisions, but there isn't enough space for decisions to BE made in a 2 party system like this.
> 
> 
> 
> Especially when one of the parties says people aren't capable of making their own decisions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like both of them.
Click to expand...

Yeah, not really.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Especially when one of the parties says people aren't capable of making their own decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like both of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, not really.
Click to expand...


The other side would be happy to say that too.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like both of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, not really.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The other side would be happy to say that too.
Click to expand...

History would prove them wrong.


----------



## NYcarbineer

grunt11b said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> You morons keep failing to point out who on the right doesn't care. Can you please tell us all?, we are dying to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who on the right doesn't care?  You want me to point someone out?
> 
> How about pointing out YOU...
> 
> *Me:
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Your response:
> 
> No it's not*
> 
> lolol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college.
> And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.
Click to expand...


Well, if the 19th century ever makes a comeback, you and Cletus and the rest of your pals will have jobs again.


----------



## Avatar4321

rdean said:


> LordBrownTrout said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where are these factions/groups/movements that Rdean continually warns us about?  I've yet to see anyone admonish the virtues of higher education.  Are these mysterious visions manifesting themselves in the deep recesses of Rdeans subconscious?
> 
> Rdean, what are you trying to learn us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are called Republicans.
> 
> And they say things like:
> 
> Education is "just a piece of paper".
> 
> Too many are "over educated".
> 
> Scientists are liars who claim "Global Warming" to give themselves jobs.
> 
> Liberals don't want to teach the "controversy".
> 
> You know, stuff like that.
Click to expand...


Liar.

You are the one suggesting Education is just the piece of paper. That only going through formal schooling and getting a degree can on be education. Education is far more than that. Getting a degree does not equal getting an education. Stop pretending otherwise.

As for global warming, you know that scientists are divided on the issue. You know when scientists have to manufacture data, and it's proven that they have, that they are in fact lying? Or do you want to pretend that despite the fact that they are proven liars that somehow their theories are correct?


----------



## Avatar4321

uscitizen said:


> Reading skills on conllege entrance exams are at their lowest level ever.
> 
> Go America!



Then shouldn't we reevaluate the progressive method of education rather than continue to throw good money into a failing system?


----------



## Avatar4321

Photonic said:


> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We spend a fortune on education and the kids are becoming dumber.
> The lib response is and it's the same response for anything that's wrong...
> We need to spend more money on it ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
Click to expand...


Actually, it very much is an option. Because funding does not equal results.


----------



## Avatar4321

Lakhota said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> Without education, what kind of jobs will be available to young Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Sadly, this is what we'll have...  We already see it on this board...
> 
> 
> Beginner's Bible Coloring Book! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Have Coffee Will Write » Blog Archive » HOW TO KEEP YOU CHILDREN IGNORANT



Then stop demonstrating it and just educate yourself.


----------



## Photonic

Avatar4321 said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We spend a fortune on education and the kids are becoming dumber.
> The lib response is and it's the same response for anything that's wrong...
> We need to spend more money on it ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, it very much is an option. Because funding does not equal results.
Click to expand...


Funding is directly equivalent to the amount of people that are able to enroll in the system actually.

If you can't support the growing population, you can't support the country.

And my point wasn't that throwing money into the system will suddenly make test scores higher, but it will provide more people with the opportunity to get a formal education.


----------



## Avatar4321

editec said:


> WE declared war on the working classes decades ago.
> 
> Of course the war on EDUCATION was part of that.



When are you people going to understand that there are no classes?

Stop trying to create conflict between your fellow man!


----------



## Avatar4321

NYcarbineer said:


> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Therefore, it is a national interest.



Actually, it's not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it's a state and local interest.


----------



## Photonic

Avatar4321 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Therefore, it is a national interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it's a state and local interest.
Click to expand...


Alright. Let's see how well the US competes with other countries with an uneducated population.


----------



## Avatar4321

editec said:


> According to a BusinessWeek analysis, college graduates aged 22 to 27 have fared worse than their older educated peers during the downturn. Two years ago, 84.4% of young grads had jobs, only somewhat lower than the 86.8% figure for college graduates aged 28 to 50. Since then, the employment gap between the two groups has almost doubled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Lost Generation - BusinessWeek
> 
> EDUCATION is NOT the problem.
> 
> This ECONOMY* is* the problem.
Click to expand...


Actually, education is the problem.

Too many people are educated into thinking that someone else is responsible for their life. Too many people presume that because they have a degree, the world somehow owes them something. That they are somehow better than others. More intelligent than others.

That simply isn't true. 

Pride is destroying our nation. It's time we humbled ourselves and did what needed to be done. It's time we fulfilled our responsibilities rather than demand others to do what we should be doing.


----------



## Avatar4321

rdean said:


> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?



Tell me, if you're so pro science. Why are you so afraid to look at the data? Why lie about it? Why do you have to attempt to caricature your opposition? Why do you have to pretend there are no intelligent viewpoints other than your own?

Why is it your "pro" science agenda is taking us back to the dark ages?


----------



## Avatar4321

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can magical creationists and climate change deniers insist they are "pro" science?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like people who have won the Nobel Prize for Physics? They would not be "pro" science?
Click to expand...


Not if they disagree with rdean.

The audacity of someone who wins the Nobel Prize to pretend he is a scientist! Everyone knows only liberals can be scientists.


----------



## Avatar4321

FA_Q2 said:


> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all this certainty you would think that ONE piece of evidence could be put fourth about this fake war on education. Why don't you try and actually get some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you deaf to the call for proof or even an example.  The ones you attempted to give were already torn to pieces.  Since you cannot show anything you default to assuming you are right and it is so obvious.  Try actually showing this 'war.'
Click to expand...


Please "educated" people don't need to actually back up their research. We should all believe them merely because they say so and they are the self proclaimed "educated".


----------



## WatertheTree

Warrior102 said:


> You can't buy your way out of dumb, RDean, no matter how much money is thrown at you.
> 
> School districts had total expenditures of approximately $596.6 billion in 200708, including about $506.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, nearly $65.8 billion was spent on capital outlay, almost $15.7 billion on interest payments on debt, and $8.3 billion on other programs (including programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education).
> 
> After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment at public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again after 199293. There was an increase of 37 percent from 198081 to 199091; a change of less than 1 percent from 199091 to 199495 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 199293); and an increase of 32 percent from 199495 to 200708. In 200708, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $10,297 in unadjusted dollars. In 200708, some 55 percent of students in public schools were transported at public expense at a cost of $854 per pupil transported, also in unadjusted dollars.
> 
> Money doesn't seem to be working.
> 
> Start with teaching your children some values at home



Did this account for increase in attendence?  Is it per capita?  would love to know.


----------



## Avatar4321

rdean said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> We still have the best, but nearly all are Democrat.
> 
> 
> 
> Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because Democrats will work for an education.  The Republican base lives off Social Security and Medicare.  Look at Republican get togethers.  It's a "depends" party.
Click to expand...


So you hate the poor, the self made, and the elderly.

Who else do you hate rdean? You seem to hate everyone you accuse Republicans of hating. But your words betray you. You really need to let go of your pride and humble yourself or you will be humbled.


----------



## Avatar4321

NYcarbineer said:


> Conservatives have a dim view of education because they believe it indoctrinates young people with liberalism.



Dim view? Quite the opposite.

We love education. We believe in educating ourselves. 

What we have a dim view of is that idea that merely sitting in a class and somehow managing to get a piece of paper means you actually know anything. While those who constantly study and learn through experience as well are idiots.

Ive been to graduate school. While alot of my fellow students were bright, alot of them were incredibly stupid. I had to edit a paper of a fellow student who was a year ahead of me. It was the most incoherent, directionless paper I've ever read. The guy literally had a paragraph that lasted 2 pages. He may have had a great topic. He might have had some excellent points, but the poor structure, the inability to coherently put the thoughts together made it impossible to read.

My personal thoughts are that someone who is about to graduate from a graduate school should be able to write a paper coherently. 

Socrates said that true wisdom consists of knowing that you know nothing. In other words, in order to truely learn you need to recognize how little you know. That's probably why those who think they are intelligent and better than others because they have a degree or went to a class are usually incredibly stupid people.


----------



## Avatar4321

Intense said:


> We live in a time where it is better to have more than one skill.



Is there a time when having multiple skills isn't a benefit?


----------



## NYcarbineer

Avatar4321 said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We spend a fortune on education and the kids are becoming dumber.
> The lib response is and it's the same response for anything that's wrong...
> We need to spend more money on it ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, it very much is an option. Because funding does not equal results.
Click to expand...


Then let's cut defense by about 50% and make it twice as good.


----------



## Avatar4321

rdean said:


> Wow, a lot of right wingers sure complain about schools and how bad they are.  And look at what they are doing to improve schools.  Introducing "magical creation", calling scientists liars and insisting science is a "faith".  They threw away a trillion dollars rebuilding a country that shouts "Death to America", but don't want to spend a dollar here.
> 
> The party with the fringe on top has gone bonkers.



Rdean. I know this is difficult for you to understand for some reason, but when scientists have been proven to have manufactured, manipulated, and ignored data, they are in fact liars.

And contrary to your opinion. God doesn't work through magic.


----------



## Avatar4321

NYcarbineer said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it very much is an option. Because funding does not equal results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then let's cut defense by about 50% and make it twice as good.
Click to expand...


I think it's very doable.


----------



## Photonic

Avatar4321 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives have a dim view of education because they believe it indoctrinates young people with liberalism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dim view? Quite the opposite.
> 
> We love education. We believe in educating ourselves.
> 
> What we have a dim view of is that idea that merely sitting in a class and somehow managing to get a piece of paper means you actually know anything. While those who constantly study and learn through experience as well are idiots.
> 
> Ive been to graduate school. While alot of my fellow students were bright, alot of them were incredibly stupid. I had to edit a paper of a fellow student who was a year ahead of me. It was the most incoherent, directionless paper I've ever read. The guy literally had a paragraph that lasted 2 pages. He may have had a great topic. He might have had some excellent points, but the poor structure, the inability to coherently put the thoughts together made it impossible to read.
> 
> My personal thoughts are that someone who is about to graduate from a graduate school should be able to write a paper coherently.
> 
> Socrates said that true wisdom consists of knowing that you know nothing. In other words, in order to truely learn you need to recognize how little you know. That's probably why those who think they are intelligent and better than others because they have a degree or went to a class are usually incredibly stupid people.
Click to expand...


I'm starting to get what your point is. You don't believe in the establishment of education as a means of elevating an individual?

Believe it or not, we are on the same side if that is the case.


----------



## Avatar4321

grunt11b said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go sweep the parking lot, Democrat....And clean the damn toilets before you leave, Democrat!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's because Democrats will work for an education.  The Republican base lives off Social Security and Medicare.  Look at Republican get togethers.  It's a "depends" party.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that where true the democrats would be doing what they could to either reform or do away with such entitlements, but nope, they defend them to the death, because it is the democrat base that rely on such handouts and will vote democrat accordingly as long as they are promised more.
Click to expand...


You expect him to be honest?

Rdean probably takes more government handouts than anyone on this board.


----------



## Avatar4321

grunt11b said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we lived in a crappy school district, we did.
> 
> And let me guess:  Public school education for "u"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> private parochial okay with you? or do u find fault in everything?
> Public education is okay, but I don't like all the violence
> 
> where did u go to school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went to hard knocks university, and came out without a bruise.
Click to expand...


bruises heal though.


----------



## Avatar4321

Photonic said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Therefore, it is a national interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it's a state and local interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Alright. Let's see how well the US competes with other countries with an uneducated population.
Click to expand...


How many other countries have an screwed up system where you send all your money into Washington just so politicians can play with it and give them back to the states when it would be much more cost effective to leave the money in the hands of individuals and the States and allow decisions effecting the education of our children in the hands of parents and the local governments instead of some bueaucrat in Washington?

We also need to start teaching our society that education is a privilege you have to work for, not an entitltement that can be handed to you. Education cannot be forced upon people. Life would be much easier if it could.


----------



## Avatar4321

Photonic said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Therefore, it is a national interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it's a state and local interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Alright. Let's see how well the US competes with other countries with an uneducated population.
Click to expand...


I think we'd compete much better as a nation who needed to work hard than one who arrogantly thinks we don't have to work hard at all because we are so much more "educated" than everyone else.

Pride destroys people. Unfortunately, people who presume they are educated when they know little are very proud.


----------



## Moonglow

> How many other countries have an screwed up system where you send all your money into Washington



well since other countries are not in the USA, I'd say none.


----------



## Avatar4321

Photonic said:


> I'm starting to get what your point is. You don't believe in the establishment of education as a means of elevating an individual?
> 
> Believe it or not, we are on the same side if that is the case.



Oh I believe it. I've found that once you get passed the rhetoric and figure out what the other person is trying to say, we are much more likely to be agreeing with the goals even if we don't agree with the means.


----------



## oreo

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?




LINK?  Who's fighting education and science?


----------



## Avatar4321

oreo said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LINK?  Who's fighting education and science?
Click to expand...


rdean says Republicans are.

His evidence: He says so.


----------



## Woyzeck

Avatar4321 said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it's a state and local interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alright. Let's see how well the US competes with other countries with an uneducated population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many other countries have an screwed up system where you send all your money into Washington just so politicians can play with it and give them back to the states when it would be much more cost effective to leave the money in the hands of individuals and the States and allow decisions effecting the education of our children in the hands of parents and the local governments instead of some bueaucrat in Washington?
> 
> We also need to start teaching our society that education is a privilege you have to work for, not an entitltement that can be handed to you. Education cannot be forced upon people. Life would be much easier if it could.
Click to expand...


Your local governments already have a mighty fine hand in your local schools. I'm pretty sure the money isn't sent to the Feds who then send it back, it's tied to a town's property taxes.


----------



## Contumacious

Photonic said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it very much is an option. Because funding does not equal results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding is directly equivalent to the amount of people that are able to enroll in the system actually.
> 
> If you can't support the growing population, you can't support the country.
> 
> *And my point wasn't that throwing money into the system will suddenly make test scores higher, but it will provide more people with the opportunity to get a formal education.*
Click to expand...



I agree with you.

It is the taxpayers responsibility to educate your children. 

.


----------



## Moonglow

I educate my kids and take them to work to learn a trade


----------



## Photonic

Moonglow said:


> I educate my kids and take them to work to learn a trade



Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?


----------



## Moonglow

Photonic said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I educate my kids and take them to work to learn a trade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?
Click to expand...


yes I teach  them things they like and dislike, so they can make the choice after having he experience, and I guide them into military service.


----------



## Photonic

Moonglow said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I educate my kids and take them to work to learn a trade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes I teach  them things they like and dislike, so they can make the choice after having he experience, and I guide them into military service.
Click to expand...


The sad thing is that with the current institution, they will HAVE to go to a university if they want a decent job. There are a few that focus specifically on the interest of the person though. I know Evergreen University in Washington does. My friend was sick of normal universities forcing everything down his throat BUT what he was interested in (Particle Physics). 

Though there are those who take their kids out of the education system to give them a religious schooling, which frightens me, as it does not often produce useful citizens.

Military Service is probably the single most recommended thing I know, no one really regrets it that I've talked too and it gives great decision making skills and disciplinary capabilities.


----------



## Moonglow

Photonic said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes I teach  them things they like and dislike, so they can make the choice after having he experience, and I guide them into military service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The sad thing is that with the current institution, they will HAVE to go to a university if they want a decent job. There are a few that focus specifically on the interest of the person though. I know Evergreen University in Washington does. My friend was sick of normal universities forcing everything down his throat BUT what he was interested in (Particle Physics).
> 
> Though there are those who take their kids out of the education system to give them a religious schooling, which frightens me, as it does not often produce useful citizens.
> 
> Military Service is probably the single most recommended thing I know, no one really regrets it that I've talked too and it gives great decision making skills and disciplinary capabilities.
Click to expand...


the eldest is studying vetranarian medicine. I went to college off and on from'79 to '97. I had a hard time finishing, there's just to many girls to chase.


----------



## theliq

Credit where Credits Due Warrior...Excellent Post theliq


Warrior102 said:


> You can't buy your way out of dumb, RDean, no matter how much money is thrown at you.
> 
> School districts had total expenditures of approximately $596.6 billion in 200708, including about $506.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, nearly $65.8 billion was spent on capital outlay, almost $15.7 billion on interest payments on debt, and $8.3 billion on other programs (including programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education).
> 
> After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment at public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again after 199293. There was an increase of 37 percent from 198081 to 199091; a change of less than 1 percent from 199091 to 199495 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 199293); and an increase of 32 percent from 199495 to 200708. In 200708, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $10,297 in unadjusted dollars. In 200708, some 55 percent of students in public schools were transported at public expense at a cost of $854 per pupil transported, also in unadjusted dollars.
> 
> Money doesn't seem to be working.
> 
> Start with teaching your children some values at home


----------



## Unkotare

daveman said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you don't even have that much of a college education
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't take one to have enough common sense to know right from wrong, and to know what ails this economy. It's funny how those on the left hold people with college on a pedestool, but yet those same people are the ones destroying the country, while lowly little insignificant non college folk like myself know how to balance my check book and spend within my means for my family. I make a very good living for myself, even though my college was limited to 1 course here and there while in the army, and those courses where nothing significant.
> I work for the Government, and took a 2 year pay freeze and stand to take another 3 more years pay freeze should the GOP get elected, and you know what? I am voting GOP, because I will sacrifice that little bit of money to save my country from this monstrosity, because  I love my kids and this country more then I love that paycheck. Can liberals do the same? I doubt it, they are the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.
> 
> And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.
> 
> No, really!
Click to expand...




This bears repeating.


----------



## Unkotare

Avatar4321 said:


> Ive been to graduate school. While alot of my fellow students were bright, alot of them were incredibly stupid. I had to edit a paper of a fellow student who was a year ahead of me. It was the most incoherent, directionless paper I've ever read. The guy literally had a paragraph that lasted 2 pages. He may have had a great topic. He might have had some excellent points, but the poor structure, the inability to coherently put the thoughts together made it impossible to read.





I concur.


----------



## Douger

Photonic said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes I teach  them things they like and dislike, so they can make the choice after having he experience, and I guide them into military service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The sad thing is that with the current institution, they will HAVE to go to a university if they want a decent job. There are a few that focus specifically on the interest of the person though. I know Evergreen University in Washington does. My friend was sick of normal universities forcing everything down his throat BUT what he was interested in (Particle Physics).
> 
> Though there are those who take their kids out of the education system to give them a religious schooling, which frightens me, as it does not often produce useful citizens.
> 
> Military Service is probably the single most recommended thing I know, no one really regrets it that I've talked too and *it gives great decision making skills and disciplinary capabilities*.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Obedient workers. Have a watch at the UN fiesta this week and keep a close eye on the "obedient workers".
Anyone who can't home school in this day and age has no business having kids. They'll only grow up to be meatheads(obedient workers)....or worse.


----------



## editec

Plenty of highly educated people looking for word, kids.

On the micro economic level, education is certainly a likely path out of poverty.

On the macro-economic level, however, education of our workforce is not the problem.

Let's try to remind ourselves that the media IQ in the USA is about 100, shall we?

Our entire workforce is NOT going to be rocket scientists.

Nevertheless, the less educable STILL need to work.

Failure to bring them along with the more educable public is a formula for social breakdown.

Which is, in case you folks haven't yet figured it out, what is happening right now,


----------



## Moonglow

Unkotare said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't take one to have enough common sense to know right from wrong, and to know what ails this economy. It's funny how those on the left hold people with college on a pedestool, but yet those same people are the ones destroying the country, while lowly little insignificant non college folk like myself know how to balance my check book and spend within my means for my family. I make a very good living for myself, even though my college was limited to 1 course here and there while in the army, and those courses where nothing significant.
> I work for the Government, and took a 2 year pay freeze and stand to take another 3 more years pay freeze should the GOP get elected, and you know what? I am voting GOP, because I will sacrifice that little bit of money to save my country from this monstrosity, because  I love my kids and this country more then I love that paycheck. Can liberals do the same? I doubt it, they are the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.
> 
> And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.
> 
> No, really!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This bears repeating.
Click to expand...


sorry but all teachers are not liberals


----------



## Moonglow

Douger said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes I teach  them things they like and dislike, so they can make the choice after having he experience, and I guide them into military service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sad thing is that with the current institution, they will HAVE to go to a university if they want a decent job. There are a few that focus specifically on the interest of the person though. I know Evergreen University in Washington does. My friend was sick of normal universities forcing everything down his throat BUT what he was interested in (Particle Physics).
> 
> Though there are those who take their kids out of the education system to give them a religious schooling, which frightens me, as it does not often produce useful citizens.
> 
> Military Service is probably the single most recommended thing I know, no one really regrets it that I've talked too and *it gives great decision making skills and disciplinary capabilities*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah. Obedient workers. Have a watch at the UN fiesta this week and keep a close eye on the "obedient workers".
> Anyone who can't home school in this day and age has no business having kids. They'll only grow up to be meatheads(obedient workers)....or worse.
Click to expand...


homeschool is not free or cheap


----------



## Unkotare

Moonglow said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.
> 
> And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.
> 
> No, really!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This bears repeating.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sorry but all teachers are not liberals
Click to expand...





An awful lot of them are.


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who on the right doesn't care?  You want me to point someone out?
> 
> How about pointing out YOU...
> 
> *Me:
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Your response:
> 
> No it's not*
> 
> lolol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college.
> And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, if the 19th century ever makes a comeback, you and Cletus and the rest of your pals will have jobs again.
Click to expand...

Does your plumber have a degree?  Does your garbageman?  Does your mechanic?

Do all the people who do the things for you that you're unable or unwilling to do for yourself have degrees?


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

daveman said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college.
> And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if the 19th century ever makes a comeback, you and Cletus and the rest of your pals will have jobs again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does your plumber have a degree?  Does your garbageman?  Does your mechanic?
> 
> Do all the people who do the things for you that you're unable or unwilling to do for yourself have degrees?
Click to expand...


And the irony is... NYCarbonated is probably a 9th grade drop-out....


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where the immigrants coming off the boats at Ellis island picking up jobs building a new nation educated in college? was it the college educated who worked the steel mills and produced the steel for WWI and WWII? No it wasn't. There has been more great things done in this country that this country benefited from by non college educated people then there ever has been done by those who went to college.
> And lets back away for a moment on this, was this thread originally about college or K-12? Because I don't know, the OP never said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if the 19th century ever makes a comeback, you and Cletus and the rest of your pals will have jobs again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does your plumber have a degree?  Does your garbageman?  Does your mechanic?
> 
> Do all the people who do the things for you that you're unable or unwilling to do for yourself have degrees?
Click to expand...


Oh, so the scientists and engineers and military members did absolutely nothing then, huh?


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I educate my kids and take them to work to learn a trade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?
Click to expand...


what does that matter?


Mike


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I educate my kids and take them to work to learn a trade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> what does that matter?
> 
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.

Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?

(That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if the 19th century ever makes a comeback, you and Cletus and the rest of your pals will have jobs again.
> 
> 
> 
> Does your plumber have a degree?  Does your garbageman?  Does your mechanic?
> 
> Do all the people who do the things for you that you're unable or unwilling to do for yourself have degrees?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, so the scientists and engineers and military members did absolutely nothing then, huh?
Click to expand...


Is that what I said?

Hint:  "No."

Carby looks down on everyone without a degree.  He'd be in a world of shit if he had to get through life without the work of people who don't have degrees.  

Get it now?


----------



## Unkotare

Photonic said:


> I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.
> 
> Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?
> 
> (That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)





Oh brother... 


Keep the nation's children away from airheads like you.


----------



## Photonic

Unkotare said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.
> 
> Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?
> 
> (That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh brother...
> 
> 
> Keep the nation's children away from airheads like you.
Click to expand...


I think I should respond in the same.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are they being taught that which they are most interested in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what does that matter?
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.
> 
> Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?
> 
> (That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)
Click to expand...


Sure I can say it doesn't matter what the child wants.  If you want to fix the education system don't ask the teachers how to fix it, they have no idea.  Start by asking the employers what *they* want fixed.  Then ask the teachers/administrators what they need to get that done. Then if they don't get that done, fire them and find someone else who will.  

Education is *not* about what the child wants. I think a lot of teachers/professors lose sight of that.  Education is about what employers need.  It is about learning to deal with mulitple personalities and how social hiearchy works.  Playtime is about what a child wants.  In the end, maybe a child does learn what he likes, maybe he doesn't but you don't have to force that on them.  It is the things that they aren't good at, the things that they don't like, that you must force them to excel at.  My son was terrible at spelling last year.  He is great at math (3rd grade and knows addition/subtraction/mult/divis/sqrt tables all up to 12*12). He loves math and he did most of that on his own.  Spelling is a different matter.  He gets that from his father actually.  So every night we spend probably 20-30 minutes on spelling.  He hates it.  We started that last year half way through the year and we continued it through the summer.  Sometimes I would just have him read out of the dictionary so he can see the pronunciation charts.  Guess what. He has yet to misspell a word on his tests this year and as I have been reading through his papers I rarely find a word mispelled.  I'm a proud parent of a very intelligent child, its not my doing tbh... it is my pushing and my forcing... He didn't 'want' to do this, I forced him to.  He's a better student and, ultimately, a better employee.

Mike


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> what does that matter?
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.
> 
> Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?
> 
> (That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure I can say it doesn't matter what the child wants.  If you want to fix the education system don't ask the teachers how to fix it, they have no idea.  Start by asking the employers what *they* want fixed.  Then ask the teachers/administrators what they need to get that done. Then if they don't get that done, fire them and find someone else who will.
> 
> Education is *not* about what the child wants. I think a lot of teachers/professors lose sight of that.  Education is about what employers need.  It is about learning to deal with mulitple personalities and how social hiearchy works.  Playtime is about what a child wants.  In the end, maybe a child does learn what he likes, maybe he doesn't but you don't have to force that on them.  It is the things that they aren't good at, the things that they don't like, that you must force them to excel at.  My son was terrible at spelling last year.  He is great at math (3rd grade and knows addition/subtraction/mult/divis/sqrt tables all up to 12*12). He loves math and he did most of that on his own.  Spelling is a different matter.  He gets that from his father actually.  So every night we spend probably 20-30 minutes on spelling.  He hates it.  We started that last year half way through the year and we continued it through the summer.  Sometimes I would just have him read out of the dictionary so he can see the pronunciation charts.  Guess what. He has yet to misspell a word on his tests this year and as I have been reading through his papers I rarely find a word mispelled.  I'm a proud parent of a very intelligent child, its not my doing tbh... it is my pushing and my forcing... He didn't 'want' to do this, I forced him to.  He's a better student and, ultimately, a better employee.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


You're a monster.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.
> 
> Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?
> 
> (That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can say it doesn't matter what the child wants.  If you want to fix the education system don't ask the teachers how to fix it, they have no idea.  Start by asking the employers what *they* want fixed.  Then ask the teachers/administrators what they need to get that done. Then if they don't get that done, fire them and find someone else who will.
> 
> Education is *not* about what the child wants. I think a lot of teachers/professors lose sight of that.  Education is about what employers need.  It is about learning to deal with mulitple personalities and how social hiearchy works.  Playtime is about what a child wants.  In the end, maybe a child does learn what he likes, maybe he doesn't but you don't have to force that on them.  It is the things that they aren't good at, the things that they don't like, that you must force them to excel at.  My son was terrible at spelling last year.  He is great at math (3rd grade and knows addition/subtraction/mult/divis/sqrt tables all up to 12*12). He loves math and he did most of that on his own.  Spelling is a different matter.  He gets that from his father actually.  So every night we spend probably 20-30 minutes on spelling.  He hates it.  We started that last year half way through the year and we continued it through the summer.  Sometimes I would just have him read out of the dictionary so he can see the pronunciation charts.  Guess what. He has yet to misspell a word on his tests this year and as I have been reading through his papers I rarely find a word mispelled.  I'm a proud parent of a very intelligent child, its not my doing tbh... it is my pushing and my forcing... He didn't 'want' to do this, I forced him to.  He's a better student and, ultimately, a better employee.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're a monster.
Click to expand...


That's all you can say?  No rebuttal. No pointing out why?  Nice intellectual discussion.  Nice debate.  You sir, are a joke.

Mike


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can say it doesn't matter what the child wants.  If you want to fix the education system don't ask the teachers how to fix it, they have no idea.  Start by asking the employers what *they* want fixed.  Then ask the teachers/administrators what they need to get that done. Then if they don't get that done, fire them and find someone else who will.
> 
> Education is *not* about what the child wants. I think a lot of teachers/professors lose sight of that.  Education is about what employers need.  It is about learning to deal with mulitple personalities and how social hiearchy works.  Playtime is about what a child wants.  In the end, maybe a child does learn what he likes, maybe he doesn't but you don't have to force that on them.  It is the things that they aren't good at, the things that they don't like, that you must force them to excel at.  My son was terrible at spelling last year.  He is great at math (3rd grade and knows addition/subtraction/mult/divis/sqrt tables all up to 12*12). He loves math and he did most of that on his own.  Spelling is a different matter.  He gets that from his father actually.  So every night we spend probably 20-30 minutes on spelling.  He hates it.  We started that last year half way through the year and we continued it through the summer.  Sometimes I would just have him read out of the dictionary so he can see the pronunciation charts.  Guess what. He has yet to misspell a word on his tests this year and as I have been reading through his papers I rarely find a word mispelled.  I'm a proud parent of a very intelligent child, its not my doing tbh... it is my pushing and my forcing... He didn't 'want' to do this, I forced him to.  He's a better student and, ultimately, a better employee.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're a monster.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's all you can say?  What a joke.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


The real joke is what you've done to your child.

He will always be the employee, never the employer. He will be a follower, not a leader. He will never "Push the envelope" He will just be an ordinary person with ordinary aspirations and ordinary capabilities.
He might get a good job, sure. But will he ever do anything truly astounding? Probably not.

You have to nurture what they are good at, not simply focus on the bad. Otherwise you just create run of the mill.

I hope he breaks out of the paradigm you are shoving him into and does something beyond the scope of what you are putting him into.

For your reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination_theory

Read the experiments.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're a monster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's all you can say?  What a joke.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The real joke is what you've done to your child.
> 
> He will always be the employee, never the employer. He will be a follower, not a leader. He will never "Push the envelope" He will just be an ordinary person with ordinary aspirations and ordinary capabilities.
> He might get a good job, sure. But will he ever do anything truly astounding? Probably not.
> 
> You have to nurture what they are good at, not simply focus on the bad. Otherwise you just create run of the mill.
> 
> I hope he breaks out of the paradigm you are shoving him into and does something beyond the scope of what you are putting him into.
Click to expand...


You are a fucking joke. First, you judge me based on 30 minutes of the day that I spend with my son.  He does push the envelope, every day, all the time.  That is the requirement in my house.  

You are the fucking monster. You are the problem with this country. You and your "As long as they are happy" bullshit that you are spewing.  I'm a monster?  I'm a single parent, I work a full time job and go to school full time.  I coach my son's soccer team, build a lego land in his room, study with him and do his homework with him than I put him to bed by reading/singing to him every night.  

Of course because I have standards, high standards, you can't stand that.  I would probably fire your substandard ass as his tutor.  You go on with your average ass and TALK about achieving things.  You do that.  Meanwhile, my son and I will be busy doing it. Loser.  

You know what they say.  Those who can do, do... Those who can't... they teach.

Mike


----------



## MiddleClass

Republicans believe that Education should only be for the Wealthy.


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's all you can say?  What a joke.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The real joke is what you've done to your child.
> 
> He will always be the employee, never the employer. He will be a follower, not a leader. He will never "Push the envelope" He will just be an ordinary person with ordinary aspirations and ordinary capabilities.
> He might get a good job, sure. But will he ever do anything truly astounding? Probably not.
> 
> You have to nurture what they are good at, not simply focus on the bad. Otherwise you just create run of the mill.
> 
> I hope he breaks out of the paradigm you are shoving him into and does something beyond the scope of what you are putting him into.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a fucking joke. First, you judge me based on 30 minutes of the day that I spend with my son.  He does push the envelope, every day, all the time.  That is the requirement in my house.
> 
> You are the fucking monster. You are the problem with this country. You and your "As long as they are happy" bullshit that you are spewing.  I'm a monster?  I'm a single parent, I work a full time job and go to school full time.  I coach my son's soccer team, build a lego land in his room, study with him and do his homework with him than I put him to bed by reading/singing to him every night.
> 
> Of course because I have standards, high standards, you can't stand that.  I would probably fire your substandard ass as his tutor.  You go on with your average ass and TALK about achieving things.  You do that.  Meanwhile, my son and I will be busy doing it. Loser.
> 
> You know what they say.  Those who can do, do... Those who can't... they teach.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Brilliant. Shows how well you know me. Have fun in that little blinded world.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The real joke is what you've done to your child.
> 
> He will always be the employee, never the employer. He will be a follower, not a leader. He will never "Push the envelope" He will just be an ordinary person with ordinary aspirations and ordinary capabilities.
> He might get a good job, sure. But will he ever do anything truly astounding? Probably not.
> 
> You have to nurture what they are good at, not simply focus on the bad. Otherwise you just create run of the mill.
> 
> I hope he breaks out of the paradigm you are shoving him into and does something beyond the scope of what you are putting him into.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a fucking joke. First, you judge me based on 30 minutes of the day that I spend with my son.  He does push the envelope, every day, all the time.  That is the requirement in my house.
> 
> You are the fucking monster. You are the problem with this country. You and your "As long as they are happy" bullshit that you are spewing.  I'm a monster?  I'm a single parent, I work a full time job and go to school full time.  I coach my son's soccer team, build a lego land in his room, study with him and do his homework with him than I put him to bed by reading/singing to him every night.
> 
> Of course because I have standards, high standards, you can't stand that.  I would probably fire your substandard ass as his tutor.  You go on with your average ass and TALK about achieving things.  You do that.  Meanwhile, my son and I will be busy doing it. Loser.
> 
> You know what they say.  Those who can do, do... Those who can't... they teach.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brilliant. Shows how well you know me. Have fun in that little blinded world.
Click to expand...


As I suspected. You have no desire for intellectual discussion.  That or you realized you are defeated.  Those are the only reason why someone says something like "Shows how well you know me" and ends the discussion there.

As for my blindfolded world.  That is rich.  You have no idea what a blindfolded world is or how it relates to my world. 

Mike


----------



## eflatminor

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.



No, some of us are fighting against federal government meddling in education.  Big frickin' difference.


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are a fucking joke. First, you judge me based on 30 minutes of the day that I spend with my son.  He does push the envelope, every day, all the time.  That is the requirement in my house.
> 
> You are the fucking monster. You are the problem with this country. You and your "As long as they are happy" bullshit that you are spewing.  I'm a monster?  I'm a single parent, I work a full time job and go to school full time.  I coach my son's soccer team, build a lego land in his room, study with him and do his homework with him than I put him to bed by reading/singing to him every night.
> 
> Of course because I have standards, high standards, you can't stand that.  I would probably fire your substandard ass as his tutor.  You go on with your average ass and TALK about achieving things.  You do that.  Meanwhile, my son and I will be busy doing it. Loser.
> 
> You know what they say.  Those who can do, do... Those who can't... they teach.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brilliant. Shows how well you know me. Have fun in that little blinded world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I suspected. You have no desire for intellectual discussion.  That or you realized you are defeated.  Those are the only reason why someone says something like "Shows how well you know me" and ends the discussion there.
> 
> As for my blindfolded world.  That is rich.  You have no idea what a blindfolded world is or how it relates to my world.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Just because the ignorance of your position allows you to claim a win doesn't mean you've won anything.
You have responded with nothing meaningful yet and come out with the "Your conceding because I said you did."

I'll try again, not that you are willing to listen.

You are not creating a leader, you are creating a follower. Show me evidence to the contrary that your method is better or I'm just going to move on. I've given you mine.

Also, you know absolutely nothing about who I am and what I've done. I suggest you back off your position of singling me out as someone who does nothing for society. You have no idea.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> what does that matter?
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.
> 
> Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?
> 
> (That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure I can say it doesn't matter what the child wants.  If you want to fix the education system don't ask the teachers how to fix it, they have no idea.  Start by asking the employers what *they* want fixed.  Then ask the teachers/administrators what they need to get that done. Then if they don't get that done, fire them and find someone else who will.
> 
> Education is *not* about what the child wants. I think a lot of teachers/professors lose sight of that.  Education is about what employers need.  It is about learning to deal with mulitple personalities and how social hiearchy works.  Playtime is about what a child wants.  In the end, maybe a child does learn what he likes, maybe he doesn't but you don't have to force that on them.  It is the things that they aren't good at, the things that they don't like, that you must force them to excel at.  My son was terrible at spelling last year.  He is great at math (3rd grade and knows addition/subtraction/mult/divis/sqrt tables all up to 12*12). He loves math and he did most of that on his own.  Spelling is a different matter.  He gets that from his father actually.  So every night we spend probably 20-30 minutes on spelling.  He hates it.  We started that last year half way through the year and we continued it through the summer.  Sometimes I would just have him read out of the dictionary so he can see the pronunciation charts.  Guess what. He has yet to misspell a word on his tests this year and as I have been reading through his papers I rarely find a word mispelled.  I'm a proud parent of a very intelligent child, its not my doing tbh... it is my pushing and my forcing... He didn't 'want' to do this, I forced him to.  He's a better student and, ultimately, a better employee.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...

Our twin daughters attend private school.....They are so far above their friends who attend public school, it's scary....I sometimes listen to 'em when they are interacting with their friends. With most of their friends, every other word is "like". Listening to my daughters, it's akin' to listening to the two adults in the room. They already have the top prep schools in the area showing serious interest in them.


----------



## Photonic

Wicked Jester said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tutor children in stay at home schooling and those in the public systems. One thing I have noticed is that both are much more proficient at taking to subjects they are better at, i encourage them to pursue those paths with minimal resistance. The result is they are happier and have fun learning which is more than I an say for those in the public education system.
> 
> Can you honestly say it doesn't matter what the child wants?
> 
> (That's why the current education system is broken btw. Ask ANY teacher or professor)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can say it doesn't matter what the child wants.  If you want to fix the education system don't ask the teachers how to fix it, they have no idea.  Start by asking the employers what *they* want fixed.  Then ask the teachers/administrators what they need to get that done. Then if they don't get that done, fire them and find someone else who will.
> 
> Education is *not* about what the child wants. I think a lot of teachers/professors lose sight of that.  Education is about what employers need.  It is about learning to deal with mulitple personalities and how social hiearchy works.  Playtime is about what a child wants.  In the end, maybe a child does learn what he likes, maybe he doesn't but you don't have to force that on them.  It is the things that they aren't good at, the things that they don't like, that you must force them to excel at.  My son was terrible at spelling last year.  He is great at math (3rd grade and knows addition/subtraction/mult/divis/sqrt tables all up to 12*12). He loves math and he did most of that on his own.  Spelling is a different matter.  He gets that from his father actually.  So every night we spend probably 20-30 minutes on spelling.  He hates it.  We started that last year half way through the year and we continued it through the summer.  Sometimes I would just have him read out of the dictionary so he can see the pronunciation charts.  Guess what. He has yet to misspell a word on his tests this year and as I have been reading through his papers I rarely find a word mispelled.  I'm a proud parent of a very intelligent child, its not my doing tbh... it is my pushing and my forcing... He didn't 'want' to do this, I forced him to.  He's a better student and, ultimately, a better employee.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our twin daughters attend private school.....They are so far above their friends who attend public school, it's scary....I sometimes listen to 'em when they are interacting with their friends. With most of their friends, every other word is "like". Listening to my daughters, it's akin' to listening to the two adults in the room. They already have the top prep schools in the area showing serious interest in them.
Click to expand...


Tell me, does the private school you send them to individualize their education?


----------



## NoNukes

Warrior102 said:


> *You can't buy your way out of dumb*, RDean, no matter how much money is thrown at you.
> 
> School districts had total expenditures of approximately $596.6 billion in 200708, including about $506.8 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, nearly $65.8 billion was spent on capital outlay, almost $15.7 billion on interest payments on debt, and $8.3 billion on other programs (including programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education).
> 
> After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment at public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again after 199293. There was an increase of 37 percent from 198081 to 199091; a change of less than 1 percent from 199091 to 199495 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 199293); and an increase of 32 percent from 199495 to 200708. In 200708, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $10,297 in unadjusted dollars. In 200708, some 55 percent of students in public schools were transported at public expense at a cost of $854 per pupil transported, also in unadjusted dollars.
> 
> Money doesn't seem to be working.
> 
> Start with teaching your children some values at home



*Straight from the horses mouth, a shining example.*


----------



## NoNukes

The Rabbi said:


> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only 6% of scientists are Republicans.  Fact!
Click to expand...


*Not at all surprising. What percentage are atheists? *


----------



## Photonic

NoNukes said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only 6% of scientists are Republicans.  Fact!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Not at all surprising. What percentage are atheists? *
Click to expand...


I'm not sure what being atheist has to do with anything but here you go.

About 7% claim belief in a personal God. Most are Pantheists and about 30% or so are atheist.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Photonic said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can say it doesn't matter what the child wants.  If you want to fix the education system don't ask the teachers how to fix it, they have no idea.  Start by asking the employers what *they* want fixed.  Then ask the teachers/administrators what they need to get that done. Then if they don't get that done, fire them and find someone else who will.
> 
> Education is *not* about what the child wants. I think a lot of teachers/professors lose sight of that.  Education is about what employers need.  It is about learning to deal with mulitple personalities and how social hiearchy works.  Playtime is about what a child wants.  In the end, maybe a child does learn what he likes, maybe he doesn't but you don't have to force that on them.  It is the things that they aren't good at, the things that they don't like, that you must force them to excel at.  My son was terrible at spelling last year.  He is great at math (3rd grade and knows addition/subtraction/mult/divis/sqrt tables all up to 12*12). He loves math and he did most of that on his own.  Spelling is a different matter.  He gets that from his father actually.  So every night we spend probably 20-30 minutes on spelling.  He hates it.  We started that last year half way through the year and we continued it through the summer.  Sometimes I would just have him read out of the dictionary so he can see the pronunciation charts.  Guess what. He has yet to misspell a word on his tests this year and as I have been reading through his papers I rarely find a word mispelled.  I'm a proud parent of a very intelligent child, its not my doing tbh... it is my pushing and my forcing... He didn't 'want' to do this, I forced him to.  He's a better student and, ultimately, a better employee.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Our twin daughters attend private school.....They are so far above their friends who attend public school, it's scary....I sometimes listen to 'em when they are interacting with their friends. With most of their friends, every other word is "like". Listening to my daughters, it's akin' to listening to the two adults in the room. They already have the top prep schools in the area showing serious interest in them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell me, does the private school you send them to individualize their education?
Click to expand...

They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. They teach them history as it actually happened, not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.


----------



## NoNukes

Wicked Jester said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our twin daughters attend private school.....They are so far above their friends who attend public school, it's scary....I sometimes listen to 'em when they are interacting with their friends. With most of their friends, every other word is "like". Listening to my daughters, it's akin' to listening to the two adults in the room. They already have the top prep schools in the area showing serious interest in them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me, does the private school you send them to individualize their education?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
Click to expand...


*This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*


----------



## daveman

MiddleClass said:


> Republicans believe that Education should only be for the Wealthy.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me, does the private school you send them to individualize their education?
> 
> 
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
Click to expand...

How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?

Are you really that stupid?


----------



## Avatar4321

MiddleClass said:


> Republicans believe that Education should only be for the Wealthy.



Why do you lie so easily?

I'd love everyone to be educated. But they need to choose it. They have to find the desire to learn the truth and apply it in our lives. 

Meanwhile we are lectured by lefties like you about how our children need to be educated and at the same time how there is no truth. Contradict much?


----------



## Wicked Jester

NoNukes said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me, does the private school you send them to individualize their education?
> 
> 
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
Click to expand...

They teach all theories relative to that particular issue. The students are bright enough to make their own conclusions.


----------



## Avatar4321

eflatminor said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, some of us are fighting against federal government meddling in education.  Big frickin' difference.
Click to expand...


Why should the Federal government have any say in how our children are educated? Like some bueaucrat in Washington has some better idea how to teach our children then we do? Why the heck should they take our money only to hand it back to us with strings and conditions they don't have a right to ask for?

You want to see our educational system have incredible innovation? Get the Feds out of it.


----------



## Wicked Jester

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
Click to expand...

Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.


----------



## Photonic

Wicked Jester said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They teach all theories relative to that particular issue. The students are bright enough to make their own conclusions.
Click to expand...


Creationism isn't science, if they bring it up during philosophy or something then that makes sense. But to bring it up during a science lecture is inviting idiocy.


----------



## Avatar4321

NoNukes said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me, does the private school you send them to individualize their education?
> 
> 
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
Click to expand...


Make it up? Hardly. They just restored what has already been taken out.

But then some politicians don't like the idea of African Americans being mentioned in history unless it's as slaves or the civil rights movements. Thankfully, there are some who want a fuller picture of history in the text books.

And why is it so offensive to learn that some people believe God created the world?


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brilliant. Shows how well you know me. Have fun in that little blinded world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected. You have no desire for intellectual discussion.  That or you realized you are defeated.  Those are the only reason why someone says something like "Shows how well you know me" and ends the discussion there.
> 
> As for my blindfolded world.  That is rich.  You have no idea what a blindfolded world is or how it relates to my world.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just because the ignorance of your position allows you to claim a win doesn't mean you've won anything.
> You have responded with nothing meaningful yet and come out with the "Your conceding because I said you did."
> 
> I'll try again, not that you are willing to listen.
> 
> You are not creating a leader, you are creating a follower. Show me evidence to the contrary that your method is better or I'm just going to move on. I've given you mine.
> 
> Also, you know absolutely nothing about who I am and what I've done. I suggest you back off your position of singling me out as someone who does nothing for society. You have no idea.
Click to expand...


Funny.  You don't like being called a monster either?  I figured you critiquing me meant you liked it.  

That's funny.  That I'm not creating a leader.  That's not what my child's teachers would tell you.  Nor is it what his friends or daycare would tell you. In fact, they would ALL tell you that my son is a leader.

And I'm familiar with the studies. I'm familiar with the positions.  Look, I get it. You don't believe it is possible to force a child to do things and encourage him to explore.  Funny, is that what they tought you in the military?  I doubt that.  I doubt that very seriously.  I *force* him to do the things he doesn't like doing and allow him to do the things he does like.  I give him leadership opportunities all of the time but he is a child.  He is supposed to follow, or did you forget that sometimes following leads to leadership? 

Great men are not born, they are not educated and they are not "raised".  They are forged.  My son is just that.  He has come home, hands up in the air throwing up papers in frustration when it was time to memorize a speech for class.  He has told me "I can't do this".  We've stayed up till 11:00 (he normally goes to bed by 8:00, unless he has practice) memorizing speeches and doing things like learning a new move in soccer.  "I can't, or I don't want to" are forbidden in my house.  Failure is only a learning opportunity.  You won't find my method in a text book or in a study, I'm sure. My evidence?  Why don't you look at the Chinese or Koreans?  Notice how they are kicking our ass in scholatics? Notice how they are creating leaders?  My view on parenting is not that of a wesern philosophy. At least not any more. I've told my son that his decisions are stupid. I've told him he needed to be embarassed, that he has disgraced himself.  I believe that my son is strong enough to handle them.  I do not believe that I am raising a flower or some delicate being that is not capable of dealing with failure. The consequences of failure in my house are substantial.  The results of success are equally extreme.  He has confidence that doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from his teachers or his friends.  At 8 years old, he has confidence because he has succeeded.  He has failed at endeavors.  He has succeeded when he did not believe he could.  "Trying your hardest" is not rewarded because the real world does not reward effort, it rewrds results.  The bar is high in my house. A "B" is not cause for celebration in my house, it is cause for more studying.  

Of course I'm a monster.  Of course I am.  My son will succeed where others fail. Encourage creativity, celebrate success and reward failure with another opportunity to succeed.  We've forgotten that because we have changed the definition of success.  We no longer view success as the end result, we view success as the ammount of effort.  I reject that notion and I reject your ideology.  You are free to reject mine.  Maybe I am failing my son.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I doubt it though.

Mike


----------



## Wicked Jester

Photonic said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> 
> 
> They teach all theories relative to that particular issue. The students are bright enough to make their own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Creationism isn't science, if they bring it up during philosophy or something then that makes sense. But to bring it up during a science lecture is inviting idiocy.
Click to expand...

You're saying science should NEVER be challenged during a science lecture or discussion?

Both sides can't be presented, for the students to learn from, and make up their own minds?

Interesting.

Ya' see, that's exactly why the students in their school are so far above their peers. they can hear all sides of an issue, and make informed judgements. And that is one of the main problems with public school educated students these days. They are taught that things are one way, and one way only.


----------



## daveman

Wicked Jester said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> 
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
Click to expand...

They realize that liberalism can't survive the free exchange of ideas.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected. You have no desire for intellectual discussion.  That or you realized you are defeated.  Those are the only reason why someone says something like "Shows how well you know me" and ends the discussion there.
> 
> As for my blindfolded world.  That is rich.  You have no idea what a blindfolded world is or how it relates to my world.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because the ignorance of your position allows you to claim a win doesn't mean you've won anything.
> You have responded with nothing meaningful yet and come out with the "Your conceding because I said you did."
> 
> I'll try again, not that you are willing to listen.
> 
> You are not creating a leader, you are creating a follower. Show me evidence to the contrary that your method is better or I'm just going to move on. I've given you mine.
> 
> Also, you know absolutely nothing about who I am and what I've done. I suggest you back off your position of singling me out as someone who does nothing for society. You have no idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny.  You don't like being called a monster either?  I figured you critiquing me meant you liked it.
> 
> That's funny.  That I'm not creating a leader.  That's not what my child's teachers would tell you.  Nor is it what his friends or daycare would tell you. In fact, they would ALL tell you that my son is a leader.
> 
> And I'm familiar with the studies. I'm familiar with the positions.  Look, I get it. You don't believe it is possible to force a child to do things and encourage him to explore.  Funny, is that what they tought you in the military?  I doubt that.  I doubt that very seriously.  I *force* him to do the things he doesn't like doing and allow him to do the things he does like.  I give him leadership opportunities all of the time but he is a child.  He is supposed to follow, or did you forget that sometimes following leads to leadership?
> 
> Great men are not born, they are not educated and they are not "raised".  They are forged.  My son is just that.  He has come home, hands up in the air throwing up papers in frustration when it was time to memorize a speech for class.  He has told me "I can't do this".  We've stayed up till 11:00 (he normally goes to bed by 8:00, unless he has practice) memorizing speeches and doing things like learning a new move in soccer.  "I can't, or I don't want to" are forbidden in my house.  Failure is only a learning opportunity.  You won't find my method in a text book or in a study because I'm sure. My evidence?  Why don't you look at the Chinese or Koreans?  Notice how they are kicking our ass in scholatics? Notice how they are creating leaders?  My view on parenting is not that of a wesern philosophy. At least not any more. I've told my son that his decisions are stupid. I've told him he needed to be embarassed, that he has disgraced himself.  I believe that my son is strong enough to handle them.  I do not believe that I am raising a flower or some delicate being that is not capable of dealing with failure. The consequences of failure in my house are substantial.  The results of success are equally extreme.  He has confidence that doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from his teachers or his friends.  At 8 years old, he has confidence because he has succeeded.  He has failed at endeavors.  He has succeeded when he did not believe he could.  "Trying your hardest" is not rewarded because the real world does not reward effort, it rewrds results.  The bar is high in my house. A "B" is not cause for celebration in my house, it is cause for more studying.
> 
> Of course I'm a monster.  Of course I am.  My son will succeed where others fail. Encourage creativity, celebrate success and reward failure with another opportunity to succeed.  We've forgotten that because we have changed the definition of success.  We no longer view success as the end result, we view success as the ammount of effort.  I reject that notion and I reject your ideology.  You are free to reject mine.  Maybe I am failing my son.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I doubt it though.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...

*HEY, HEY HEY!*.....Stop being the parent. That's the governments and schools job!

How dare you hold your child responsible and accountable, *DAMMIT!*


----------



## Avatar4321

daveman said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
> 
> 
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They realize that liberalism can't survive the free exchange of ideas.
Click to expand...


The truth, however, can.


----------



## Texanmike

Wicked Jester said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because the ignorance of your position allows you to claim a win doesn't mean you've won anything.
> You have responded with nothing meaningful yet and come out with the "Your conceding because I said you did."
> 
> I'll try again, not that you are willing to listen.
> 
> You are not creating a leader, you are creating a follower. Show me evidence to the contrary that your method is better or I'm just going to move on. I've given you mine.
> 
> Also, you know absolutely nothing about who I am and what I've done. I suggest you back off your position of singling me out as someone who does nothing for society. You have no idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny.  You don't like being called a monster either?  I figured you critiquing me meant you liked it.
> 
> That's funny.  That I'm not creating a leader.  That's not what my child's teachers would tell you.  Nor is it what his friends or daycare would tell you. In fact, they would ALL tell you that my son is a leader.
> 
> And I'm familiar with the studies. I'm familiar with the positions.  Look, I get it. You don't believe it is possible to force a child to do things and encourage him to explore.  Funny, is that what they tought you in the military?  I doubt that.  I doubt that very seriously.  I *force* him to do the things he doesn't like doing and allow him to do the things he does like.  I give him leadership opportunities all of the time but he is a child.  He is supposed to follow, or did you forget that sometimes following leads to leadership?
> 
> Great men are not born, they are not educated and they are not "raised".  They are forged.  My son is just that.  He has come home, hands up in the air throwing up papers in frustration when it was time to memorize a speech for class.  He has told me "I can't do this".  We've stayed up till 11:00 (he normally goes to bed by 8:00, unless he has practice) memorizing speeches and doing things like learning a new move in soccer.  "I can't, or I don't want to" are forbidden in my house.  Failure is only a learning opportunity.  You won't find my method in a text book or in a study because I'm sure. My evidence?  Why don't you look at the Chinese or Koreans?  Notice how they are kicking our ass in scholatics? Notice how they are creating leaders?  My view on parenting is not that of a wesern philosophy. At least not any more. I've told my son that his decisions are stupid. I've told him he needed to be embarassed, that he has disgraced himself.  I believe that my son is strong enough to handle them.  I do not believe that I am raising a flower or some delicate being that is not capable of dealing with failure. The consequences of failure in my house are substantial.  The results of success are equally extreme.  He has confidence that doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from his teachers or his friends.  At 8 years old, he has confidence because he has succeeded.  He has failed at endeavors.  He has succeeded when he did not believe he could.  "Trying your hardest" is not rewarded because the real world does not reward effort, it rewrds results.  The bar is high in my house. A "B" is not cause for celebration in my house, it is cause for more studying.
> 
> Of course I'm a monster.  Of course I am.  My son will succeed where others fail. Encourage creativity, celebrate success and reward failure with another opportunity to succeed.  We've forgotten that because we have changed the definition of success.  We no longer view success as the end result, we view success as the ammount of effort.  I reject that notion and I reject your ideology.  You are free to reject mine.  Maybe I am failing my son.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I doubt it though.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *HEY, HEY HEY!*.....Stop being the parent. That's the governments and schools job!
> 
> How dare you hold your child responsible and accountable, *DAMMIT!*
Click to expand...


I know.  Its terrible.  Try telling my son he can't do something.  He will only work harder to prove you wrong.  Tell him he is stupid.  Its funny.  He works harder to prove you wrong.  Tell him he's smart.  He'll tell you you don't need to tell him that.  He's *eight* and he will outwork you.  That's the philosophy.  He understands at *eight* that he is brilliant.  He also understands that the world is full of brilliant people who do average things (I consider myself among them tbh... I'm working on changing my situation, I've learned that from *him*) and he doesn't want to be that person.  I expose him to my weaknesses intentionally.  I show him where my mistakes are and what my shortcomings are.  He's working at the same time I am.  He does his homework right next to me as I do mine.  Funny thing.  This child ,who is clearly not a leader, sat down at the dinner table with me a year ago and asked me "daddy, you're smart, you tell me to work hard in school... why don't *you*. "  I was stunned.  I tried to explain that I'm an autodidact and his response (at *seven*) was "Daddy, I know you're smart, but you need to stop making excuses."  This is my *child*.  He gets it.  My explanations of why I haven't done things are just that.  I'm not judged according to what I think I am capable of but what I have accomplished.  Clearly I am beating him down right?  I'm making a follower.  I'm not creating a leader in any way.  

Its funny that way.  He is respectful, kind, caring, resourseful, determined, creative and self critical.  Oh, and he's 8.  His future is much brighter than mine, I'm sure of it. And that should be every parents goal.

Mike


----------



## daveman

Avatar4321 said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
> 
> 
> 
> They realize that liberalism can't survive the free exchange of ideas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The truth, however, can.
Click to expand...

Indeed.  Liberalism has little truth about it.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Texanmike said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny.  You don't like being called a monster either?  I figured you critiquing me meant you liked it.
> 
> That's funny.  That I'm not creating a leader.  That's not what my child's teachers would tell you.  Nor is it what his friends or daycare would tell you. In fact, they would ALL tell you that my son is a leader.
> 
> And I'm familiar with the studies. I'm familiar with the positions.  Look, I get it. You don't believe it is possible to force a child to do things and encourage him to explore.  Funny, is that what they tought you in the military?  I doubt that.  I doubt that very seriously.  I *force* him to do the things he doesn't like doing and allow him to do the things he does like.  I give him leadership opportunities all of the time but he is a child.  He is supposed to follow, or did you forget that sometimes following leads to leadership?
> 
> Great men are not born, they are not educated and they are not "raised".  They are forged.  My son is just that.  He has come home, hands up in the air throwing up papers in frustration when it was time to memorize a speech for class.  He has told me "I can't do this".  We've stayed up till 11:00 (he normally goes to bed by 8:00, unless he has practice) memorizing speeches and doing things like learning a new move in soccer.  "I can't, or I don't want to" are forbidden in my house.  Failure is only a learning opportunity.  You won't find my method in a text book or in a study because I'm sure. My evidence?  Why don't you look at the Chinese or Koreans?  Notice how they are kicking our ass in scholatics? Notice how they are creating leaders?  My view on parenting is not that of a wesern philosophy. At least not any more. I've told my son that his decisions are stupid. I've told him he needed to be embarassed, that he has disgraced himself.  I believe that my son is strong enough to handle them.  I do not believe that I am raising a flower or some delicate being that is not capable of dealing with failure. The consequences of failure in my house are substantial.  The results of success are equally extreme.  He has confidence that doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from his teachers or his friends.  At 8 years old, he has confidence because he has succeeded.  He has failed at endeavors.  He has succeeded when he did not believe he could.  "Trying your hardest" is not rewarded because the real world does not reward effort, it rewrds results.  The bar is high in my house. A "B" is not cause for celebration in my house, it is cause for more studying.
> 
> Of course I'm a monster.  Of course I am.  My son will succeed where others fail. Encourage creativity, celebrate success and reward failure with another opportunity to succeed.  We've forgotten that because we have changed the definition of success.  We no longer view success as the end result, we view success as the ammount of effort.  I reject that notion and I reject your ideology.  You are free to reject mine.  Maybe I am failing my son.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I doubt it though.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> *HEY, HEY HEY!*.....Stop being the parent. That's the governments and schools job!
> 
> How dare you hold your child responsible and accountable, *DAMMIT!*
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know.  Its terrible.  Try telling my son he can't do something.  He will only work harder to prove you wrong.  Tell him he is stupid.  Its funny.  He works harder to prove you wrong.  Tell him he's smart.  He'll tell you you don't need to tell him that.  He's *eight* and he will outwork you.  That's the philosophy.  He understands at *eight* that he is brilliant.  He also understands that the world is full of brilliant people who do average things (I consider myself among them tbh... I'm working on changing my situation, I've learned that from *him*) and he doesn't want to be that person.  I expose him to my weaknesses intentionally.  I show him where my mistakes are and what my shortcomings are.  He's working at the same time I am.  He does his homework right next to me as I do mine.  Funny thing.  This child ,who is clearly not a leader, sat down at the dinner table with me a year ago and asked me "daddy, you're smart, you tell me to work hard in school... why don't *you*. "  I was stunned.  I tried to explain that I'm an autodidact and his response (at *seven*) was "Daddy, I know you're smart, but you need to stop making excuses."  This is my *child*.  He gets it.  My explanations of why I haven't done things are just that.  I'm not judged according to what I think I am capable of but what I have accomplished.  Clearly I am beating him down right?  I'm making a follower.  I'm not creating a leader in any way.
> 
> Its funny that way.  He is respectful, kind, caring, resourseful, determined, creative and self critical.  Oh, and he's 8.  His future is much brighter than mine, I'm sure of it. And that should be every parents goal.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...

Absolutely!

Our daughters are the same way. They are going places in life for a reason. It's because we've instilled in them that half ass is not acceptable in anything they do. If you're going to do it, do it right. Don't commit to anything you don't intend on seeing through. When ya'  make mistakes, don't whine about them, learn from them, and carry on.


----------



## Photonic

Wicked Jester said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> They teach all theories relative to that particular issue. The students are bright enough to make their own conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Creationism isn't science, if they bring it up during philosophy or something then that makes sense. But to bring it up during a science lecture is inviting idiocy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're saying science should NEVER be challenged during a science lecture or discussion?
> 
> Both sides can't be presented, for the students to learn from, and make up their own minds?
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Ya' see, that's exactly why the students in their school are so far above their peers. they can hear all sides of an issue, and make informed judgements. And that is one of the main problems with public school educated students these days. They are taught that things are one way, and one way only.
Click to expand...


Science should be challenged by science. Not superstition.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Photonic said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Creationism isn't science, if they bring it up during philosophy or something then that makes sense. But to bring it up during a science lecture is inviting idiocy.
> 
> 
> 
> You're saying science should NEVER be challenged during a science lecture or discussion?
> 
> Both sides can't be presented, for the students to learn from, and make up their own minds?
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Ya' see, that's exactly why the students in their school are so far above their peers. they can hear all sides of an issue, and make informed judgements. And that is one of the main problems with public school educated students these days. They are taught that things are one way, and one way only.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Science should be challenged by science. Not superstition.
Click to expand...

^^And here is the prime example of why kids are so fucked up these days^^

You say you tutor?........Stay away from the kids, please......You're doing them no justice.


----------



## High_Gravity

I think the strip clubs and adult industry will still have plenty of work available.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Creationism isn't science, if they bring it up during philosophy or something then that makes sense. But to bring it up during a science lecture is inviting idiocy.
> 
> 
> 
> You're saying science should NEVER be challenged during a science lecture or discussion?
> 
> Both sides can't be presented, for the students to learn from, and make up their own minds?
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Ya' see, that's exactly why the students in their school are so far above their peers. they can hear all sides of an issue, and make informed judgements. And that is one of the main problems with public school educated students these days. They are taught that things are one way, and one way only.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Science should be challenged by science. Not superstition.
Click to expand...


LOL.  That's funny. 

"My ideology is subject to scrutiny... so long as I accept it".

Wow.  And you call me a monster? You are the example of what I tell my son not to be.  Or at least the way you are presenting yourself here is exactly what I tell him not to be.

Mike


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected. You have no desire for intellectual discussion.  That or you realized you are defeated.  Those are the only reason why someone says something like "Shows how well you know me" and ends the discussion there.
> 
> As for my blindfolded world.  That is rich.  You have no idea what a blindfolded world is or how it relates to my world.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because the ignorance of your position allows you to claim a win doesn't mean you've won anything.
> You have responded with nothing meaningful yet and come out with the "Your conceding because I said you did."
> 
> I'll try again, not that you are willing to listen.
> 
> You are not creating a leader, you are creating a follower. Show me evidence to the contrary that your method is better or I'm just going to move on. I've given you mine.
> 
> Also, you know absolutely nothing about who I am and what I've done. I suggest you back off your position of singling me out as someone who does nothing for society. You have no idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny.  You don't like being called a monster either?  I figured you critiquing me meant you liked it.
> 
> That's funny.  That I'm not creating a leader.  That's not what my child's teachers would tell you.  Nor is it what his friends or daycare would tell you. In fact, they would ALL tell you that my son is a leader.
> 
> And I'm familiar with the studies. I'm familiar with the positions.  Look, I get it. You don't believe it is possible to force a child to do things and encourage him to explore.  Funny, is that what they tought you in the military?  I doubt that.  I doubt that very seriously.  I *force* him to do the things he doesn't like doing and allow him to do the things he does like.  I give him leadership opportunities all of the time but he is a child.  He is supposed to follow, or did you forget that sometimes following leads to leadership?
> 
> Great men are not born, they are not educated and they are not "raised".  They are forged.  My son is just that.  He has come home, hands up in the air throwing up papers in frustration when it was time to memorize a speech for class.  He has told me "I can't do this".  We've stayed up till 11:00 (he normally goes to bed by 8:00, unless he has practice) memorizing speeches and doing things like learning a new move in soccer.  "I can't, or I don't want to" are forbidden in my house.  Failure is only a learning opportunity.  You won't find my method in a text book or in a study, I'm sure. My evidence?  Why don't you look at the Chinese or Koreans?  Notice how they are kicking our ass in scholatics? Notice how they are creating leaders?  My view on parenting is not that of a wesern philosophy. At least not any more. I've told my son that his decisions are stupid. I've told him he needed to be embarassed, that he has disgraced himself.  I believe that my son is strong enough to handle them.  I do not believe that I am raising a flower or some delicate being that is not capable of dealing with failure. The consequences of failure in my house are substantial.  The results of success are equally extreme.  He has confidence that doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from his teachers or his friends.  At 8 years old, he has confidence because he has succeeded.  He has failed at endeavors.  He has succeeded when he did not believe he could.  "Trying your hardest" is not rewarded because the real world does not reward effort, it rewrds results.  The bar is high in my house. A "B" is not cause for celebration in my house, it is cause for more studying.
> 
> Of course I'm a monster.  Of course I am.  My son will succeed where others fail. Encourage creativity, celebrate success and reward failure with another opportunity to succeed.  We've forgotten that because we have changed the definition of success.  We no longer view success as the end result, we view success as the ammount of effort.  I reject that notion and I reject your ideology.  You are free to reject mine.  Maybe I am failing my son.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I doubt it though.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


You've taken the time and admitted that you may be right or wrong. More importantly you've said that you don't know. Too many people run on the assumption that they can't be wrong because it's their child. My goal was to make you think about that.

I'll tell you a little bit about me if you would care to listen.

I wasn't a normal child. The education system failed me because of that. I excelled so much at what I did and the school didn't know how to handle it, so I was relegated to remedial classes. I ran circles around teachers and the tests they gave me and they said I had a learning disability. 

I taught myself 3 languages by the age of 9 (After being told by the education system that I was not capable of learning a new language), my interest in space led me to the study of physics at the old age of 12. I was so bored in my classes that I did badly due to non-motivation. No teacher attempted to foster my abilities except 2 or 3 who understood what they were dealing with.

Before I was out of high school I had submitted an experiment to the patent process and by the time I was 19 I had worked with JPL in Pasadena in research on my idea, collaborated with NASA and my community college engineering professor had toted me down to UC Long Beach to oversee a research experiment in the engineering Dept. I'm no fool. I see flaws in society everywhere and I can't help but feel separated from it all because it's wildly outside of what they consider ideal. Or maybe I'm wildly outside what they consider ideal. Maybe I'm biased because of it, I probably am. 

What I DO know is that many people I have talked too wish they had been able to get the education that was tailored more towards them personally. I commend you for taking your childs education in your own hands because you care, though I disagree with your method, you will still produce a person who is far more capable than your average publicly educated person. I called you a monster because the way you phrased it you forced your child to learn things in the same way the public education system forces them, which is monstrous to me.

You said you were basically training your child to be an employee in a previous post. That is exactly all the public education system teaches kids to be. I apologize for the misunderstanding.


----------



## NoNukes

Wicked Jester said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> 
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
Click to expand...


*So, that means that I am right and you have no reply. Typical right winger, cannot answer back, so you insult.*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
Click to expand...


*No, but it sounds like you are. Their version of History as it actually happened does not necessarily mean that is how it happened. My version of how it actually happened might not be accurate. Who knows how it 'really happened' other than those who witnessed it?*


----------



## daveman

High_Gravity said:


> I think the strip clubs and adult industry will still have plenty of work available.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> 
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, but it sounds like you are.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it comforts you to feel that way, but no.


NoNukes said:


> Their version of History as it actually happened does not necessarily mean that is how it happened. My version of how it actually happened might not be accurate. Who knows how it 'really happened' other than those who witnessed it?[/B]


Depends on how far back you go, doesn't it?


----------



## Wicked Jester

NoNukes said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
> 
> 
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So, that means that I am right and you have no reply. Typical right winger, cannot answer back, so you insult.*
Click to expand...

I did answer you in #345, fool......Go back and read it.

That doesn't make your question any less stupid.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because the ignorance of your position allows you to claim a win doesn't mean you've won anything.
> You have responded with nothing meaningful yet and come out with the "Your conceding because I said you did."
> 
> I'll try again, not that you are willing to listen.
> 
> You are not creating a leader, you are creating a follower. Show me evidence to the contrary that your method is better or I'm just going to move on. I've given you mine.
> 
> Also, you know absolutely nothing about who I am and what I've done. I suggest you back off your position of singling me out as someone who does nothing for society. You have no idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny.  You don't like being called a monster either?  I figured you critiquing me meant you liked it.
> 
> That's funny.  That I'm not creating a leader.  That's not what my child's teachers would tell you.  Nor is it what his friends or daycare would tell you. In fact, they would ALL tell you that my son is a leader.
> 
> And I'm familiar with the studies. I'm familiar with the positions.  Look, I get it. You don't believe it is possible to force a child to do things and encourage him to explore.  Funny, is that what they tought you in the military?  I doubt that.  I doubt that very seriously.  I *force* him to do the things he doesn't like doing and allow him to do the things he does like.  I give him leadership opportunities all of the time but he is a child.  He is supposed to follow, or did you forget that sometimes following leads to leadership?
> 
> Great men are not born, they are not educated and they are not "raised".  They are forged.  My son is just that.  He has come home, hands up in the air throwing up papers in frustration when it was time to memorize a speech for class.  He has told me "I can't do this".  We've stayed up till 11:00 (he normally goes to bed by 8:00, unless he has practice) memorizing speeches and doing things like learning a new move in soccer.  "I can't, or I don't want to" are forbidden in my house.  Failure is only a learning opportunity.  You won't find my method in a text book or in a study, I'm sure. My evidence?  Why don't you look at the Chinese or Koreans?  Notice how they are kicking our ass in scholatics? Notice how they are creating leaders?  My view on parenting is not that of a wesern philosophy. At least not any more. I've told my son that his decisions are stupid. I've told him he needed to be embarassed, that he has disgraced himself.  I believe that my son is strong enough to handle them.  I do not believe that I am raising a flower or some delicate being that is not capable of dealing with failure. The consequences of failure in my house are substantial.  The results of success are equally extreme.  He has confidence that doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from his teachers or his friends.  At 8 years old, he has confidence because he has succeeded.  He has failed at endeavors.  He has succeeded when he did not believe he could.  "Trying your hardest" is not rewarded because the real world does not reward effort, it rewrds results.  The bar is high in my house. A "B" is not cause for celebration in my house, it is cause for more studying.
> 
> Of course I'm a monster.  Of course I am.  My son will succeed where others fail. Encourage creativity, celebrate success and reward failure with another opportunity to succeed.  We've forgotten that because we have changed the definition of success.  We no longer view success as the end result, we view success as the ammount of effort.  I reject that notion and I reject your ideology.  You are free to reject mine.  Maybe I am failing my son.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I doubt it though.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You've taken the time and admitted that you may be right or wrong. More importantly you've said that you don't know. Too many people run on the assumption that they can't be wrong because it's their child. My goal was to make you think about that.
> 
> I'll tell you a little bit about me if you would care to listen.
> 
> I wasn't a normal child. The education system failed me because of that. I excelled so much at what I did and the school didn't know how to handle it, so I was relegated to remedial classes. I ran circles around teachers and the tests they gave me and they said I had a learning disability.
> 
> I taught myself 3 languages by the age of 9 (After being told by the education system that I was not capable of learning a new language), my interest in space led me to the study of physics at the old age of 12. I was so bored in my classes that I did badly due to non-motivation. No teacher attempted to foster my abilities except 2 or 3 who understood what they were dealing with.
> 
> Before I was out of high school I had submitted an experiment to the patent process and by the time I was 19 I had worked with JPL in Pasadena in research on my idea, collaborated with NASA and my community college engineering professor had toted me down to UC Long Beach to oversee a research experiment in the engineering Dept. I'm no fool. I see flaws in society everywhere and I can't help but feel separated from it all because it's wildly outside of what they consider ideal. Or maybe I'm wildly outside what they consider ideal. Maybe I'm biased because of it, I probably am.
> 
> What I DO know is that many people I have talked too wish they had been able to get the education that was tailored more towards them personally. I commend you for taking your childs education in your own hands because you care, though I disagree with your method, you will still produce a person who is far more capable than your average publicly educated person. I called you a monster because the way you phrased it you forced your child to learn things in the same way the public education system forces them, which is monstrous to me.
> 
> You said you were basically training your child to be an employee in a previous post. That is exactly all the public education system teaches kids to be. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Click to expand...


Instead of employee I should have said employable.

I don't force him to learn in any way that is close to the public school system.  They don't force anything and that is the problem.  

Either way, thank you for reading and responding to my post.  I can relate to a lot of what you say because I had a similar experience.  I speak 4 languages, including Korean which is unlike anything we are exposed to in the western world, fluently.  I was bored in class and became lazy because I could just "get it".  I made average to below average grades because we counted home work. I almost never made an "A" in a class but never made below a "B" in my entire schollastic test taking experience.  I just never handed in home work.  I think my parents were afraid that I would break if they were as hard on me as I am my son.  I started early and I started with a plan.  I lived in Asia growing up and I saw things that they did to their children that we consider horrible but I saw myself secretly wishing that someone would push me the way they were pushed.  

My dad was an executive for an oil company, he holds 7 patents to his name. My mom was extremely successful, by a different measure.  She got what she wanted out of life, fighting and once defeating breast cancer and influencing enough people that she had funerals held on four different continents.  She also met with presidents of south east asian countries and was the only foreigner ever appointed to an official position in the government of a large muslim country.  I have seen success and failure both growing up and in my own life and to be honest, thus far mine is a dissapointment.  My style of parenting is taking a child of equal (potentially more) intelligence and interests as myself and giving him what I believe my family was counseled out of giving me. Rightly or wrongly it is the only way to parent.

Mike


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny.  You don't like being called a monster either?  I figured you critiquing me meant you liked it.
> 
> That's funny.  That I'm not creating a leader.  That's not what my child's teachers would tell you.  Nor is it what his friends or daycare would tell you. In fact, they would ALL tell you that my son is a leader.
> 
> And I'm familiar with the studies. I'm familiar with the positions.  Look, I get it. You don't believe it is possible to force a child to do things and encourage him to explore.  Funny, is that what they tought you in the military?  I doubt that.  I doubt that very seriously.  I *force* him to do the things he doesn't like doing and allow him to do the things he does like.  I give him leadership opportunities all of the time but he is a child.  He is supposed to follow, or did you forget that sometimes following leads to leadership?
> 
> Great men are not born, they are not educated and they are not "raised".  They are forged.  My son is just that.  He has come home, hands up in the air throwing up papers in frustration when it was time to memorize a speech for class.  He has told me "I can't do this".  We've stayed up till 11:00 (he normally goes to bed by 8:00, unless he has practice) memorizing speeches and doing things like learning a new move in soccer.  "I can't, or I don't want to" are forbidden in my house.  Failure is only a learning opportunity.  You won't find my method in a text book or in a study, I'm sure. My evidence?  Why don't you look at the Chinese or Koreans?  Notice how they are kicking our ass in scholatics? Notice how they are creating leaders?  My view on parenting is not that of a wesern philosophy. At least not any more. I've told my son that his decisions are stupid. I've told him he needed to be embarassed, that he has disgraced himself.  I believe that my son is strong enough to handle them.  I do not believe that I am raising a flower or some delicate being that is not capable of dealing with failure. The consequences of failure in my house are substantial.  The results of success are equally extreme.  He has confidence that doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from his teachers or his friends.  At 8 years old, he has confidence because he has succeeded.  He has failed at endeavors.  He has succeeded when he did not believe he could.  "Trying your hardest" is not rewarded because the real world does not reward effort, it rewrds results.  The bar is high in my house. A "B" is not cause for celebration in my house, it is cause for more studying.
> 
> Of course I'm a monster.  Of course I am.  My son will succeed where others fail. Encourage creativity, celebrate success and reward failure with another opportunity to succeed.  We've forgotten that because we have changed the definition of success.  We no longer view success as the end result, we view success as the ammount of effort.  I reject that notion and I reject your ideology.  You are free to reject mine.  Maybe I am failing my son.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I doubt it though.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've taken the time and admitted that you may be right or wrong. More importantly you've said that you don't know. Too many people run on the assumption that they can't be wrong because it's their child. My goal was to make you think about that.
> 
> I'll tell you a little bit about me if you would care to listen.
> 
> I wasn't a normal child. The education system failed me because of that. I excelled so much at what I did and the school didn't know how to handle it, so I was relegated to remedial classes. I ran circles around teachers and the tests they gave me and they said I had a learning disability.
> 
> I taught myself 3 languages by the age of 9 (After being told by the education system that I was not capable of learning a new language), my interest in space led me to the study of physics at the old age of 12. I was so bored in my classes that I did badly due to non-motivation. No teacher attempted to foster my abilities except 2 or 3 who understood what they were dealing with.
> 
> Before I was out of high school I had submitted an experiment to the patent process and by the time I was 19 I had worked with JPL in Pasadena in research on my idea, collaborated with NASA and my community college engineering professor had toted me down to UC Long Beach to oversee a research experiment in the engineering Dept. I'm no fool. I see flaws in society everywhere and I can't help but feel separated from it all because it's wildly outside of what they consider ideal. Or maybe I'm wildly outside what they consider ideal. Maybe I'm biased because of it, I probably am.
> 
> What I DO know is that many people I have talked too wish they had been able to get the education that was tailored more towards them personally. I commend you for taking your childs education in your own hands because you care, though I disagree with your method, you will still produce a person who is far more capable than your average publicly educated person. I called you a monster because the way you phrased it you forced your child to learn things in the same way the public education system forces them, which is monstrous to me.
> 
> You said you were basically training your child to be an employee in a previous post. That is exactly all the public education system teaches kids to be. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Instead of employee I should have said employable.
> 
> I don't force him to learn in any way that is close to the public school system.  They don't force anything and that is the problem.
> 
> Either way, thank you for reading and responding to my post.  I can relate to a lot of what you say because I had a similar experience.  I speak 4 languages, including Korean which is unlike anything we are exposed to in the western world, fluently.  I was bored in class and became lazy because I could just "get it".  I made average to below average grades because we counted home work. I almost never made an "A" in a class but never made below a "B" in my entire schollastic test taking experience.  I just never handed in home work.  I think my parents were afraid that I would break if they were as hard on me as I am my son.  I started early and I started with a plan.  I lived in Asia growing up and I saw things that they did to their children that we consider horrible but I saw myself secretly wishing that someone would push me the way they were pushed.
> 
> My dad was an executive for an oil company, he holds 7 patents to his name. My mom was extremely successful, by a different measure.  She got what she wanted out of life, fighting and once defeating breast cancer and influencing enough people that she had funerals held on four different continents.  She also met with presidents of south east asian countries and was the only foreigner ever appointed to an official position in the government of a large muslim country.  I have seen success and failure both growing up and in my own life and to be honest, thus far mine is a dissapointment.  My style of parenting is taking a child of equal (potentially more) intelligence and interests as myself and giving him what I believe my family was counseled out of giving me. Rightly or wrongly it is the only way to parent.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


More relatable than you would expect. My grandfather was a board member for Exon after working for them for 32 years. Retired a year and a half ago.


----------



## Texanmike

Photonic said:


> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've taken the time and admitted that you may be right or wrong. More importantly you've said that you don't know. Too many people run on the assumption that they can't be wrong because it's their child. My goal was to make you think about that.
> 
> I'll tell you a little bit about me if you would care to listen.
> 
> I wasn't a normal child. The education system failed me because of that. I excelled so much at what I did and the school didn't know how to handle it, so I was relegated to remedial classes. I ran circles around teachers and the tests they gave me and they said I had a learning disability.
> 
> I taught myself 3 languages by the age of 9 (After being told by the education system that I was not capable of learning a new language), my interest in space led me to the study of physics at the old age of 12. I was so bored in my classes that I did badly due to non-motivation. No teacher attempted to foster my abilities except 2 or 3 who understood what they were dealing with.
> 
> Before I was out of high school I had submitted an experiment to the patent process and by the time I was 19 I had worked with JPL in Pasadena in research on my idea, collaborated with NASA and my community college engineering professor had toted me down to UC Long Beach to oversee a research experiment in the engineering Dept. I'm no fool. I see flaws in society everywhere and I can't help but feel separated from it all because it's wildly outside of what they consider ideal. Or maybe I'm wildly outside what they consider ideal. Maybe I'm biased because of it, I probably am.
> 
> What I DO know is that many people I have talked too wish they had been able to get the education that was tailored more towards them personally. I commend you for taking your childs education in your own hands because you care, though I disagree with your method, you will still produce a person who is far more capable than your average publicly educated person. I called you a monster because the way you phrased it you forced your child to learn things in the same way the public education system forces them, which is monstrous to me.
> 
> You said you were basically training your child to be an employee in a previous post. That is exactly all the public education system teaches kids to be. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of employee I should have said employable.
> 
> I don't force him to learn in any way that is close to the public school system.  They don't force anything and that is the problem.
> 
> Either way, thank you for reading and responding to my post.  I can relate to a lot of what you say because I had a similar experience.  I speak 4 languages, including Korean which is unlike anything we are exposed to in the western world, fluently.  I was bored in class and became lazy because I could just "get it".  I made average to below average grades because we counted home work. I almost never made an "A" in a class but never made below a "B" in my entire schollastic test taking experience.  I just never handed in home work.  I think my parents were afraid that I would break if they were as hard on me as I am my son.  I started early and I started with a plan.  I lived in Asia growing up and I saw things that they did to their children that we consider horrible but I saw myself secretly wishing that someone would push me the way they were pushed.
> 
> My dad was an executive for an oil company, he holds 7 patents to his name. My mom was extremely successful, by a different measure.  She got what she wanted out of life, fighting and once defeating breast cancer and influencing enough people that she had funerals held on four different continents.  She also met with presidents of south east asian countries and was the only foreigner ever appointed to an official position in the government of a large muslim country.  I have seen success and failure both growing up and in my own life and to be honest, thus far mine is a dissapointment.  My style of parenting is taking a child of equal (potentially more) intelligence and interests as myself and giving him what I believe my family was counseled out of giving me. Rightly or wrongly it is the only way to parent.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More relatable than you would expect. My grandfather was a board member for Exon after working for them for 32 years. Retired a year and a half ago.
Click to expand...


And such vastly different outlooks on life.  Strange.  Are you in the AF?  Just curious.

Mike


----------



## Photonic

Texanmike said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texanmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of employee I should have said employable.
> 
> I don't force him to learn in any way that is close to the public school system.  They don't force anything and that is the problem.
> 
> Either way, thank you for reading and responding to my post.  I can relate to a lot of what you say because I had a similar experience.  I speak 4 languages, including Korean which is unlike anything we are exposed to in the western world, fluently.  I was bored in class and became lazy because I could just "get it".  I made average to below average grades because we counted home work. I almost never made an "A" in a class but never made below a "B" in my entire schollastic test taking experience.  I just never handed in home work.  I think my parents were afraid that I would break if they were as hard on me as I am my son.  I started early and I started with a plan.  I lived in Asia growing up and I saw things that they did to their children that we consider horrible but I saw myself secretly wishing that someone would push me the way they were pushed.
> 
> My dad was an executive for an oil company, he holds 7 patents to his name. My mom was extremely successful, by a different measure.  She got what she wanted out of life, fighting and once defeating breast cancer and influencing enough people that she had funerals held on four different continents.  She also met with presidents of south east asian countries and was the only foreigner ever appointed to an official position in the government of a large muslim country.  I have seen success and failure both growing up and in my own life and to be honest, thus far mine is a dissapointment.  My style of parenting is taking a child of equal (potentially more) intelligence and interests as myself and giving him what I believe my family was counseled out of giving me. Rightly or wrongly it is the only way to parent.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More relatable than you would expect. My grandfather was a board member for Exon after working for them for 32 years. Retired a year and a half ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And such vastly different outlooks on life.  Strange.  Are you in the AF?  Just curious.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


I'm an Air Force cadet class 4 but I'm working on my enlistment process because it will be more beneficial to simply enlist and become an officer that way.


----------



## Baron

rdean said:


> Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?



Sellers of cheap Chinese commodities.


----------



## FA_Q2

NYcarbineer said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lakhota said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you blind to the war on teachers, textbooks, science, evolution...etc...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you deaf to the call for proof or even an example.  The ones you attempted to give were already torn to pieces.  Since you cannot show anything you default to assuming you are right and it is so obvious.  Try actually showing this 'war.'
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were asleep during the war on the teaching profession in Wisconsin?  The absurd textbook revisionism in Texas?  The endless war on the validity of the theory of Evolution?
> 
> Where have you been?
Click to expand...

You meant he attack on the corrupt and decadent teachers union in Wisconsin?  Yes, I know that to address the corruption and adjunct failure of the teachers unions and failing teachers in this nation is taken as an attack on education by our left wing extremists but it is not.  Again, this is not an example of  attacking education.  As a matter of fact, it is the first step in addressing the problem in the first place.  One of those areas that is such a problem is due to the fact that unions have made it impossible to hold a teacher accountable for their performance.  Take your partisan glasses off.  Addressing the budget shortfalls and problems with public sector unions are NOT attacking religion. 


grunt11b said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get rid of the department of education and put it back in the hands of the state, like it was meant to be. That's a start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you believe education is not a vital national interest should it be left up to  the states.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong again, the states could and DID do a better job at educating our children then big brother. Look at the history of this country, up until the DOE was created this country boomed, only after it was created did we see a steep decline in quality students and people with common sense.
> A video for anyone who cares to watch it.
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzXyM5tKok4]Adam Schaeffer on scrapping the Dept. of Education - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...

That was a terrible video though.  Linking pay to test scores is rather meaningless unless the tests themselves have not changed.  The Dept. of Education is a failure because children are not learning anymore and we are not preparing them for the jobs and future that is out there but that was relating it to something that is not a solid baseline.


grunt11b said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand you cannot defeat my rebuttal, it's okay. I am right, you are wrong. Also, it wasn't copy paste, it was all me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are actually repeating the same cyclical argument repeated by every person on Earth who is uneducated on the topic of Evolution.
> 
> Your rebuttal doesn't even need to be defeated, it's self defeating. I can sit here and watch it go poof.
> 
> There it just did. Care to make up another uneducated point on a subject you so obviously know nothing about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If it can't be proven either way, is it really an uneducated point? And unless you know for a fact either way, how do you figure to be the resident expert on such matters?
Click to expand...

It is not a matter of proven.  There is evidence and a valid theory on one side and no valid theory on the other.  You're statement outlined a fundamental lack of knowledge in the theory itself as well.  There is nothing in evolutionary theory that states we evolved from monkeys or apes.  Failing to understand the common ancestry part of the theory makes me, and I believe others here, believe that you lack any understanding of basic evolutionary theory.  You need to get that before there can be an intelligent discussion on the theory itself.


On the other side, I have already posted why creationism does not belong in the classroom and it has absolutely nothing to do with questioning evolution, we should always challenge our scientific understanding.  It has to do with the fact that creationism or ID are not scientific theories at all.  Address that point and we can go somewhere on that topic.


Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grunt11b said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't take one to have enough common sense to know right from wrong, and to know what ails this economy. It's funny how those on the left hold people with college on a pedestool, but yet those same people are the ones destroying the country, while lowly little insignificant non college folk like myself know how to balance my check book and spend within my means for my family. I make a very good living for myself, even though my college was limited to 1 course here and there while in the army, and those courses where nothing significant.
> I work for the Government, and took a 2 year pay freeze and stand to take another 3 more years pay freeze should the GOP get elected, and you know what? I am voting GOP, because I will sacrifice that little bit of money to save my country from this monstrosity, because  I love my kids and this country more then I love that paycheck. Can liberals do the same? I doubt it, they are the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> You'll be told you're voting against your own best interests.
> 
> And it's just sheer coincidence that your "best interests" is voting for Democrats.
> 
> No, really!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I think the best interest of the US is to leave the field of the 2 party system. It's causing the MOST problems since we need more centrist policies and we are getting fringe policies that shouldn't be making their way into our system.
Click to expand...



I want a no party system but I don't see that as ever happening.  I would love to see our politicians actually running on issues instead of garnering 30 percent of the vote because of the small letter next to their name.


Photonic said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Education is vital to the wellbeing of our economy.
> 
> Therefore, it is a national interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it's a state and local interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Alright. Let's see how well the US competes with other countries with an uneducated population.
Click to expand...

Name one single poster that has said we should not educate our population.


Straw man set on fire - try again.


Photonic said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it very much is an option. Because funding does not equal results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding is directly equivalent to the amount of people that are able to enroll in the system actually.
> 
> If you can't support the growing population, you can't support the country.
> 
> And my point wasn't that throwing money into the system will suddenly make test scores higher, but it will provide more people with the opportunity to get a formal education.
Click to expand...

And your point is false.  All expenditures that have been brought up in the grater debate on the DoE within the political spectrum have been a PER STUDENT expenditure.  As a matter of fact, as student base increases, per student rates should slightly drop.  What we have is a massive increase in per student spending riding along a massive decrease in the effectiveness in education.  There is an argument to be made that a MODERN education may cost more but not to the point of what we are seeing.  Clearly, the money is not being spent in a good fashion.  Education is available to all but a good one is not available at all and more money has not solved that problem one iota.  There needs to be a complete revamping of the system.

On a side note, one of the major problems and one that Mike pointed out was the idea that we need to foster a child's feeling or opinion of themselves.  That is not what school is about.  It is about learning and failure should not only be possible but recognized and addressed.  Today, we are exploring things like taking grades away, giving good grades for effort even if the information is wrong and other idiotic concepts like that.  


NYcarbineer said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting education simply isn't an option. However, the system needs to be restructured immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it very much is an option. Because funding does not equal results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then let's cut defense by about 50% and make it twice as good.
Click to expand...

We could do that easily.  You could almost achieve that by revamping the officer corps and the idiotic contracting system that we currently employ.  I guess you were trying to be sarcastic though.  Throwing funding at a problem does not always equal improvements and is almost always inefficient.


NoNukes said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> who is fighting education?
> Who is fighting science?
> 
> Or are you falling for the rhetoric.
> 
> yeah...thats it...you are one of those easily duped by rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only 6% of scientists are Republicans.  Fact!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Not at all surprising. What percentage are atheists? *
Click to expand...


Of course you missed the tons of posts (including one on this thread) that thoroughly debunked this claim and proved it to be 100% bullshit.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does "They teach them history as it actually happened" sound like "They make it up"?
> 
> Are you really that stupid?
> 
> 
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They realize that liberalism can't survive the free exchange of ideas.
Click to expand...


*A person who accepts the free exchange of ideas would not paint their opponents with such broad strokes of the brush.*


----------



## NoNukes

Wicked Jester said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So, that means that I am right and you have no reply. Typical right winger, cannot answer back, so you insult.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did answer you in #345, fool......Go back and read it.
> 
> That doesn't make your question any less stupid.
Click to expand...


*My question was sarcastic, and obviously over your head.*


----------



## NoNukes

Wicked Jester said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> They teach them the basics. They prepare them for the next step, which is prep.  It's academically oriented. They don't shove politics or religion down their throats. *They teach them history as it actually happened,* not the loony liberal revisionist crap being taught in public schools.....They have a high standard set for the students. If the student isn't giving 100%, they won't be there long.....The teachers are also held to a high standard. They don't perform, they don't show overall success by their students achievements, they are gone, period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They teach all theories relative to that particular issue. The students are bright enough to make their own conclusions.
Click to expand...


*Why can they not draw their own conclusions from 'liberal revisionist history'? If liberals supported the theory of Creationism, you would be calling it liberal lunacy and nonsense, not worthy of being taught in your daughters' school. Since liberals oppose the theory, you have a knee jerk reaction and deem it worthy of the curriculum. One thing that is heartening is that since you are a Conservative, there is a very good chance of your daughters growing up to be liberals. *


----------



## Unkotare

I thought we weren't supposed to go after families here?


----------



## Unkotare

Photonic said:


> I wasn't a normal child. The education system failed me because of that. I excelled so much at what I did and the school didn't know how to handle it.







Oh, brother......


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical liberal.......They see anything as a threat to their loony idoctrination desires, and you get stupid shit like what he posted.
> 
> 
> 
> They realize that liberalism can't survive the free exchange of ideas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *A person who accepts the free exchange of ideas would not paint their opponents with such broad strokes of the brush.*
Click to expand...


I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about a political philosophy.


----------



## Woyzeck

Avatar4321 said:


> eflatminor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, some of us are fighting against federal government meddling in education.  Big frickin' difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why should the Federal government have any say in how our children are educated? Like some bueaucrat in Washington has some better idea how to teach our children then we do? Why the heck should they take our money only to hand it back to us with strings and conditions they don't have a right to ask for?
> 
> You want to see our educational system have incredible innovation? Get the Feds out of it.
Click to expand...


The federal government really doesn't have that much power in determining what to teach your kids. The most they've done is demand standardized tests, which is only a small portion of a child's education, and put a carrot made of cash incentives in front of the states' faces. 

The money for schools is controlled by the school districts and come from property taxes. If your local district is sending that money to Washington and then back, well, they're kind of retarded to do that with their money, because most school districts don't do that. If you're unhappy with your local school, write to the district, or even better use your power to vote at the ballot box when elections for the school committee come up.


----------



## Wicked Jester

NoNukes said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This sounds like they make it up, like they do in Texas. Do they teach Creationism?*
> 
> 
> 
> They teach all theories relative to that particular issue. The students are bright enough to make their own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Why can they not draw their own conclusions from 'liberal revisionist history'? If liberals supported the theory of Creationism, you would be calling it liberal lunacy and nonsense, not worthy of being taught in your daughters' school. Since liberals oppose the theory, you have a knee jerk reaction and deem it worthy of the curriculum. One thing that is heartening is that since you are a Conservative, there is a very good chance of your daughters growing up to be liberals. *
Click to expand...

No, what is heartening is that they're already conservative in their thinking. Their ideals are conservative. They understand that hardwork and determination is the only way to succeed. That asking others to provide what is their own responsibility is taking the easy way out. They fully see the success and lifestyle my wife and I have worked hard to achieve. They know the hardwork and long hours we put in. The risks we took with our capital to grow and create further sucess.......We've nurtured our kids, not coddled them. We have the means to give them anything they want. They know that's not the deal. They know that we're not going to cave if they start whining about something they want. And it's not easy for me to tell them no. My daughters and I have that father/daughter bond, and I many times have to refer to my wife when it comes to saying no, because my natural instinct is to say, "of course dears, you can have and do watever what you want". They're now approaching the teen years, where it's getting easier for me to say no.

Now, are you a parent?......Have you seen the crap the public schools are pushing down the kids throats these days?.......Pick up some history books approved by the DOE and see the crap that fills them. See why so many kids these days haven't a clue as to our nations history, let alone identify who the founding fathers are, and how this country came to be. But ask them what the top video game is, and they'll give you the complete rundown. The dumbing down of the kids these days, in part to due to lousy public school education, is downrigt sad.......And this particular generation of kids may very well end up being the worst.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> I thought we weren't supposed to go after families here?



*I was just pointing out that many kids end up with different political affiliations than their parents out of rebellion. If it was taken differently by anyone, I am sorry.*


----------



## NoNukes

Wicked Jester said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> They teach all theories relative to that particular issue. The students are bright enough to make their own conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Why can they not draw their own conclusions from 'liberal revisionist history'? If liberals supported the theory of Creationism, you would be calling it liberal lunacy and nonsense, not worthy of being taught in your daughters' school. Since liberals oppose the theory, you have a knee jerk reaction and deem it worthy of the curriculum. One thing that is heartening is that since you are a Conservative, there is a very good chance of your daughters growing up to be liberals. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, what is heartening is that they're already conservative in their thinking. Their ideals are conservative. They understand that hardowork and determination is the only way to succeed. That asking others to provide what is their own responsibility is taking the easy way out. They fully see the success and lifestyle my wife and I have worked hard to achieve. They know the hardwork and long hours we put in. The risks we took with our capital to grow and create further sucess.......We've nurtured our kids, not coddled them. We have the means to give them anything they want. They know that's not the deal. They know that we're not going to cave if they start whining about something they want. And it's not easy for me to tell them no. My daughters and I have that father/daughter bond, and I many times have to refer to my wife when it comes to saying no, because my natural instinct is to say, "of course dears, you can have and do watever what you want". They're now approaching the teen years, where it's getting easier for me to say no.
> 
> Now, are you a parent?......Have you seen the crap the public schools are pushing down the kids throats these days?.......Pick up some history books approved by the DOE and see the crap that fills them. See why so many kids these days haven't a clue as to our nations history, let alone identify who are founding fathers are, and how this country came to be. But ask them what the top video game is, and they'll give you the complete rundown. The dumbing down of the kids these days, in part to due to lousy public school education, is downrigt sad.......And this particular generation of kids may very well end up being the worst.
Click to expand...


*Yes, I am a parent of two kids 8 and 11. I moved to Europe 15 years ago, and one of the benefits of where we live is excellent public schools. My kids go to a progressive public school that is difficult to get into, and it is excellent. The parents run the school, which is a blessing and a curse, but you can be part of the process. We also have to raise the bulk of the running costs.
If you pay close attention to your kids, i believe that they have a great chance at excellence. One thing that I stress with my children is that they have their own ideas. I am an atheist, but they are baptized and joining the church, which I more than facilitated.
I am an artist and a liberal, and my kids will probably grow up to be conservative accountants.
Yes, kids and education are dumbed down, and it is a shame. I have taught primary school, secondary school and college, and i am less impressed with every generation that comes along. We do not have television in our house, and if they want to play the Play Station, they have to read first. will it do any good,or will they have just grown up weird, who knows? As parents you are always winging it.*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> They realize that liberalism can't survive the free exchange of ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A person who accepts the free exchange of ideas would not paint their opponents with such broad strokes of the brush.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about a political philosophy.
Click to expand...


*Were the two of you not discussing 'typical liberals'?*


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *A person who accepts the free exchange of ideas would not paint their opponents with such broad strokes of the brush.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about people, I'm talking about a political philosophy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Were the two of you not discussing 'typical liberals'?*
Click to expand...


Read what I wrote.  "LiberalISM".  Not "liberalS".


----------



## NoNukes

*Look at what you were responding to.*


----------



## Wicked Jester

NoNukes said:


> *Look at what you were responding to.*


He was responding to the fact that many liberals use false hyperbole to make a point.....Like your bogus claim that Texas just makes it up. And then asking me if they teach creationism in our childrens private school, after I had already stated their school does not shove politics OR religion down their throats.......They give all views, and let the kids decide. And they teach american history as it actually happened, and not the revisionist liberal history that is so pervasive in our public school system these days.


----------



## NoNukes

Wicked Jester said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Look at what you were responding to.*
> 
> 
> 
> He was responding to the fact that many liberals use false hyperbole to make a point.....Like your bogus claim that Texas just makes it up. And then asking me if they teach creationism in our childrens private school, after I had already stated their school does not shove politics OR religion down their throats.......They give all views, and let the kids decide. And they teach american history as it actually happened, and not the revisionist liberal history that is so pervasive in our public school system these days.
Click to expand...


*has there not been some revisionist history in Texas? Did they not change the History books some? And once again, who is to say what actually happened unless they witnessed it?*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> *has there not been some revisionist history in Texas? Did they not change the History books some? And once again, who is to say what actually happened unless they witnessed it?*






..........................


----------



## FA_Q2

NoNukes said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Look at what you were responding to.*
> 
> 
> 
> He was responding to the fact that many liberals use false hyperbole to make a point.....Like your bogus claim that Texas just makes it up. And then asking me if they teach creationism in our childrens private school, after I had already stated their school does not shove politics OR religion down their throats.......They give all views, and let the kids decide. And they teach american history as it actually happened, and not the revisionist liberal history that is so pervasive in our public school system these days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *has there not been some revisionist history in Texas? Did they not change the History books some? And once again, who is to say what actually happened unless they witnessed it?*
Click to expand...


Changing textbooks does not equal 'revisionist' history.  Changing textbooks to reflect one specific political view would be revisionist history.  Can you point out how the text book update in Texas was revisionist or are you spouting bullshit again simply because it is Texas?


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was responding to the fact that many liberals use false hyperbole to make a point.....Like your bogus claim that Texas just makes it up. And then asking me if they teach creationism in our childrens private school, after I had already stated their school does not shove politics OR religion down their throats.......They give all views, and let the kids decide. And they teach american history as it actually happened, and not the revisionist liberal history that is so pervasive in our public school system these days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *has there not been some revisionist history in Texas? Did they not change the History books some? And once again, who is to say what actually happened unless they witnessed it?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Changing textbooks does not equal 'revisionist' history.  Changing textbooks to reflect one specific political view would be revisionist history.  Can you point out how the text book update in Texas was revisionist or are you spouting bullshit again simply because it is Texas?
Click to expand...


I was repeating something that I read on these boards about how Texas changed some of the history that was being taught. I have not had a history textbook in my hands in decades, could you give me some examples of the revisionist liberal history that is being taught as opposed to what really happened.


----------



## Photonic

Unkotare said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't a normal child. The education system failed me because of that. I excelled so much at what I did and the school didn't know how to handle it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother......
Click to expand...


Thank you for providing the perfect example.


----------



## Unkotare

Photonic said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't a normal child. The education system failed me because of that. I excelled so much at what I did and the school didn't know how to handle it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for providing the perfect example.
Click to expand...


Whoa, whoa, slow down Doogie. That post was just so darn brilliant that...that I don't know how to handle it! The power of your genius is just too much to bear! No wonder why your every failure was misinterpreted by those fools in the educational system. They weren't equipped or prepared to deal with a genius of your caliber. It wasn't that you lacked the ability to concentrate and were apparently not too bright, it was that you were bored by what challenged human children. Obviously that's why you failed. Didn't they notice you pretending to teach yourself 3 languages and play at self-importance? How could they not see the shining light hidden in their bushel? There is no excuse for them not being prepared for you though. When you consider how many millions and millions of people online were self-professed child geniuses (nearly as many as are amazingly strong, handsome undefeated fighters and self-made millionaires living in lavish sea-side compounds with cars and homes described in great detail) they ought to have been ready to recognize your apparent ADD and obtuseness for what they really were - the hallmarks of imagined greatness!

I'm sorry you were let down by the mere mortals around you but don't worry, I'm sure that by now the many life-changing inventions you have given the world and the buckets of world-class awards and accolades that have been heaped upon you are satisfying proof that you were right in what you wanted to imagine about yourself as a slow child with trouble concentrating. With all of the fame and wealth you have accumulated, it is generous of you to deign to lend us some of your precious time. The world needs you and your genius, but you are kind enough to look down upon us and spare a comment or two. Your consideration is as limitless as your brilliant mind.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *has there not been some revisionist history in Texas? Did they not change the History books some? And once again, who is to say what actually happened unless they witnessed it?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Changing textbooks does not equal 'revisionist' history.  Changing textbooks to reflect one specific political view would be revisionist history.  Can you point out how the text book update in Texas was revisionist or are you spouting bullshit again simply because it is Texas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was repeating something that I read on these boards about how Texas changed some of the history that was being taught. I have not had a history textbook in my hands in decades, could you give me some examples of the revisionist liberal history that is being taught as opposed to what really happened.
Click to expand...



So you admit you had no idea what the fuck you were talking about when you spouted off?


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *has there not been some revisionist history in Texas? Did they not change the History books some? And once again, who is to say what actually happened unless they witnessed it?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Changing textbooks does not equal 'revisionist' history.  Changing textbooks to reflect one specific political view would be revisionist history.  Can you point out how the text book update in Texas was revisionist or are you spouting bullshit again simply because it is Texas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was repeating something that I read on these boards about how Texas changed some of the history that was being taught. I have not had a history textbook in my hands in decades, could you give me some examples of the revisionist liberal history that is being taught as opposed to what really happened.
Click to expand...

Why  Zinn Education Project
Since the launch of the Zinn Education Project in 2008, we have received lots of comments from teachers about the value of a peoples history and how they are incorporating it in their classroom. Here are a few of those comments:

A long list of good guys with no one to struggle with is neither a true story nor a good story. It doesnt resonate because it leads the student to believe that we are all waiting for the next exceptional leader, instead of becoming a force for change in our own communities. A Peoples History helped me recognize this as a student of history and inspires my attempt to bring true stories to young people, weary of the inaccessible lists that history teaching has become.
 Reynolds Bodenhamer, 11th-Grade U.S. History, Gulfport, MS

Zinns work offers an alternative perspective that students need in order to think more critically about key issues in history.
 William Thomas, Auburn, NH

Knowing that resources like the Zinn Education Project exist make me feel so hopeful about the network of people who are engaged in this kind of dialogue with their students. I am a young, white female living in Baltimore and teaching at an all black middle school. These resources are so valuable to me personally and to the relationships being built between the students and the faculty. Thank you to everyone involved in keeping this collaboration evolving!
 Lara Emerling, Middle School Teacher, Baltimore, MD

Thank you so very much for sharing Zinns materials with us. We badly need to get a message of advocacy and action into our communities and into our hearts. Your support makes this easier, in a fight that feels overwhelming 
 Nancy Jean Smith, California State University Stanislaus, Stockton, CA

_t was my sense that throughout the year last school year, and so far this school year, [that] the kids responded well to the Zinn book  [because] they appreciate Zinns perspective. I think most of the kids realize that there has been something seriously flawed with the way in which U.S. history has been presented to them, and Zinns book, for many of them, verifies this feeling. Even the kids who dont agree with Zinns take on US history appreciate the fact that he has a definite approach to history and the kids say that a strong perspective makes the text more engaging than traditional history texts. Also, the students enjoy his narrative style where one topic or series of events is dealt with in a clean, short chapter, as opposed to a traditional textbooks reliance on sections that seem to drone on with facts layered on more facts. We will see how this year continues.
 Nick Caltagirone, High School Teacher, West Chicago, IL_​_

And what's wrong with Zinn's history?  It's full of leftist crap:

History News Network

Through Zinns looking-glass, Maoist China, site of historys bloodiest state-sponsored killings, becomes the closest thing, in the long history of that ancient country, to a peoples government, independent of outside control. The authoritarian Nicaraguan Sandinistas were welcomed by their own people, while the opposition Contras, who backed the candidate that triumphed when free elections were finally held, were a terrorist group that seemed to have no popular support inside Nicaragua. Castros Cuba, readers learn, had no bloody record of suppression.

The recently released updated edition continues to be plagued with inaccuracies and poor judgment. The added sections on the Clinton years, the 2000 election, and 9/11 bear little resemblance to the reality his current readers have lived through.

In an effort to bolster his arguments against putting criminals in jail, aggressive law enforcement tactics, and President Clintons crime bill, Zinn contends that in spite of all this violent crime continues to increase. It doesnt. Like much of Zinns rhetoric, if you believe the opposite of what he says in this instance you would be correct. According to a Department of Justice report released in September of 2002, the violent crime rate has been cut in half since 1993.

According to Zinn, it was Mumia Abu-Jamals race and radicalism, as well as his persistent criticism of the Philadelphia police that landed him on death row in the early 1980s. Nothing about Abu-Jamals gun being found at the scene; nothing about the testimony of numerous witnesses pointing to him as the triggerman; nothing about additional witnesses reporting a confession by Abu-Jamalit was Abu-Jamals dissenting voice that caused a jury of twelve to unanimously sentence him to death.​_


----------



## Photonic

Unkotare said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for providing the perfect example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whoa, whoa, slow down Doogie. That post was just so darn brilliant that...that I don't know how to handle it! The power of your genius is just too much to bear! No wonder why your every failure was misinterpreted by those fools in the educational system. They weren't equipped or prepared to deal with a genius of your caliber. It wasn't that you lacked the ability to concentrate and were apparently not too bright, it was that you were bored by what challenged human children. Obviously that's why you failed. Didn't they notice you pretending to teach yourself 3 languages and play at self-importance? How could they not see the shining light hidden in their bushel? There is no excuse for them not being prepared for you though. When you consider how many millions and millions of people online were self-professed child geniuses (nearly as many as are amazingly strong, handsome undefeated fighters and self-made millionaires living in lavish sea-side compounds with cars and homes described in great detail) they ought to have been ready to recognize your apparent ADD and obtuseness for what they really were - the hallmarks of imagined greatness!
> 
> I'm sorry you were let down by the mere mortals around you but don't worry, I'm sure that by now the many life-changing inventions you have given the world and the buckets of world-class awards and accolades that have been heaped upon you are satisfying proof that you were right in what you wanted to imagine about yourself as a slow child with trouble concentrating. With all of the fame and wealth you have accumulated, it is generous of you to deign to lend us some of your precious time. The world needs you and your genius, but you are kind enough to look down upon us and spare a comment or two. Your consideration is as limitless as your brilliant mind.
Click to expand...


It's about time someone gets it.


----------



## Texanmike

NoNukes said:


> *I am an artist and a liberal, and my kids will probably grow up to be conservative accountants.
> *



Maybe I need to rethink my stance on evolution.

Mike


----------



## NoNukes

Texanmike said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I am an artist and a liberal, and my kids will probably grow up to be conservative accountants.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I need to rethink my stance on evolution.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


Which is....?


----------



## Mr.Nick

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



Well as a species we are naturally intelligent..

50,000 years of innovation makes your post seem silly..

An intelligent individual will always be intelligent, that person does not need a teacher because the person can teach himself or herself proactively.

I suppose the other 90% are a problem.


----------



## Unkotare

Mr.Nick said:


> An intelligent individual will always be intelligent, that person does not need a teacher because the person can teach himself or herself proactively.
> .





What the hell are you talking about?


----------



## daveman

Mr.Nick said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well as a species we are naturally intelligent..
> 
> 50,000 years of innovation makes your post seem silly..
> 
> An intelligent individual will always be intelligent, that person does not need a teacher because the person can teach himself or herself proactively.
> 
> I suppose the other 90% are a problem.
Click to expand...


See, some people -- usually on the left -- confuse education and intelligence.

The two are _not_ synonymous.


----------



## NYcarbineer

If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?

Are they?


----------



## FA_Q2

NYcarbineer said:


> If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?
> 
> Are they?



If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?

Are we?


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> Mr.Nick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well as a species we are naturally intelligent..
> 
> 50,000 years of innovation makes your post seem silly..
> 
> An intelligent individual will always be intelligent, that person does not need a teacher because the person can teach himself or herself proactively.
> 
> I suppose the other 90% are a problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See, some people -- usually on the left -- confuse education and intelligence.
> 
> The two are _not_ synonymous.
Click to expand...


I wholeheartedly agree, except for 'usually on the left'. Your hatred gets in the way of an intelligent statement.


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?
> 
> Are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
Click to expand...


*This post is a fine example of how bad the American education program is.*


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Changing textbooks does not equal 'revisionist' history.  Changing textbooks to reflect one specific political view would be revisionist history.  Can you point out how the text book update in Texas was revisionist or are you spouting bullshit again simply because it is Texas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was repeating something that I read on these boards about how Texas changed some of the history that was being taught. I have not had a history textbook in my hands in decades, could you give me some examples of the revisionist liberal history that is being taught as opposed to what really happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you admit you had no idea what the fuck you were talking about when you spouted off?
Click to expand...


*Yes, and I should know better than to repeat anything that I have read on a Board that has you posting on it.*


----------



## The T

FA_Q2 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?
> 
> Are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
Click to expand...

Far from it. It would seem the Statists are more interested in social experimentation rather than real world education.


----------



## FA_Q2

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?
> 
> Are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *This post is a fine example of how bad the American education program is.*
Click to expand...


Care to explain or are you simply trying to show your complete lack of a point?


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This post is a fine example of how bad the American education program is.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Care to explain or are you simply trying to show your complete lack of a point?
Click to expand...


*Can you not read?*


----------



## Avatar4321

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This post is a fine example of how bad the American education program is.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain or are you simply trying to show your complete lack of a point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Can you not read?*
Click to expand...


Maybe you should ask yourself.


----------



## NYcarbineer

FA_Q2 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?
> 
> Are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
Click to expand...


Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.


----------



## NoNukes

Avatar4321 said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain or are you simply trying to show your complete lack of a point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Can you not read?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should ask yourself.
Click to expand...


*'Are we' does not follow what preceded it.*


----------



## NoNukes

NYcarbineer said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?
> 
> Are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
Click to expand...


*There you go, spoiling a good argument with facts.*


----------



## oreo

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?




This is probably a MIS-NOMER--because *THERE ARE NO JOBS*---  So in that--who needs an education--


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr.Nick said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well as a species we are naturally intelligent..
> 
> 50,000 years of innovation makes your post seem silly..
> 
> An intelligent individual will always be intelligent, that person does not need a teacher because the person can teach himself or herself proactively.
> 
> I suppose the other 90% are a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, some people -- usually on the left -- confuse education and intelligence.
> 
> The two are _not_ synonymous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree, except for 'usually on the left'. Your hatred gets in the way of an intelligent statement.
Click to expand...

No hatred.  Observation.


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> If conservatives had better answers for education, wouldn't the most conservative states be doing the best educating their residents?
> 
> Are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
Click to expand...

Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.

If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?


----------



## whitehall

Here's an idea, fire the useless drones in the dept of education and maybe a college education would be cheaper.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
Click to expand...


*Guess it has to do with what you have to work with.*


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Guess it has to do with what you have to work with.*
Click to expand...

In other words, you failed, and you have no idea why -- so throw more money at it!!

Incompetent.


----------



## NYcarbineer

daveman said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
Click to expand...


You're admitting that liberal states do better than conservative states?

lol, eureka!


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If liberals had the answers for education then wouldn't we have one of the top education programs in the world after decades of liberal ideas running our schools?
> 
> Are we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
Click to expand...


It's interesting to note that the agenda conservatives call liberal for education is the same policies in place in those countries that DO have education that trumps ours completely.

Just pointing that out.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Guess it has to do with what you have to work with.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In other words, you failed, and you have no idea why -- so throw more money at it!!
> 
> Incompetent.
Click to expand...


*Yes, but use the money to completely change the system.*


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're admitting that liberal states do better than conservative states?
> 
> lol, eureka!
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying if you guys are so great, how come you still suck?


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Liberal states have the best education overall in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's interesting to note that the agenda conservatives call liberal for education is the same policies in place in those countries that DO have education that trumps ours completely.
> 
> Just pointing that out.
Click to expand...


Incorrectly.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Guess it has to do with what you have to work with.*
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you failed, and you have no idea why -- so throw more money at it!!
> 
> Incompetent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Yes, but use the money to completely change the system.*
Click to expand...

You don't want to change the system.  You want to perpetuate it.  

Who screeches the loudest at mention of education reform?  The left.


----------



## thereisnospoon

rdean said:


> Some in this country are fighting education.  Especially science.  Without an education, what kind of jobs will be available?  Or don't people care?



"Fighting education".....HUH? Care to elaborate...Or post a link?
Typical liberal straw man argument.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting to note that the agenda conservatives call liberal for education is the same policies in place in those countries that DO have education that trumps ours completely.
> 
> Just pointing that out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Incorrectly.
Click to expand...


Incorrect.

 United States is number 20 and falling. Who's ahead of us?

Education in Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are one of the top 3.

The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting to note that the agenda conservatives call liberal for education is the same policies in place in those countries that DO have education that trumps ours completely.
> 
> Just pointing that out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrectly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> United States is number 20 and falling. Who's ahead of us?
> 
> Education in Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> They are one of the top 3.
> 
> The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.
Click to expand...

But what do they teach?  Do they teach math and science, or do they teach feelings and self-esteem like American schools?


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrectly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> United States is number 20 and falling. Who's ahead of us?
> 
> Education in Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> They are one of the top 3.
> 
> The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But what do they teach?  Do they teach math and science, or do they teach feelings and self-esteem like American schools?
Click to expand...


That's...kind of out of the context of my point. I agree with you that we should be teaching useful workable knowledge.

They don't' do that feel good crap american schools do.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> United States is number 20 and falling. Who's ahead of us?
> 
> Education in Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> They are one of the top 3.
> 
> The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.
> 
> 
> 
> But what do they teach?  Do they teach math and science, or do they teach feelings and self-esteem like American schools?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's...kind of out of the context of my point. I agree with you that we should be teaching useful workable knowledge.
> 
> They don't' do that feel good crap american schools do.
Click to expand...

Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> But what do they teach?  Do they teach math and science, or do they teach feelings and self-esteem like American schools?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's...kind of out of the context of my point. I agree with you that we should be teaching useful workable knowledge.
> 
> They don't' do that feel good crap american schools do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.
Click to expand...


Agreed.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's...kind of out of the context of my point. I agree with you that we should be teaching useful workable knowledge.
> 
> They don't' do that feel good crap american schools do.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed.
Click to expand...


----------



## FA_Q2

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's...kind of out of the context of my point. I agree with you that we should be teaching useful workable knowledge.
> 
> They don't' do that feel good crap american schools do.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed.
Click to expand...


Which is where the 'liberal' schools complaint comes from.  I don't think that anyone here is on the side of not educating our entire populous.  Nor are they inherently against continued education.  What they are against is the current clip schools are taking in reinforcing self image above actually teaching, the idea that failure is not possible anymore in today's schools, the move to photocopying students rather than teaching critical thinking skills and having little to no customization in a curriculum.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you failed, and you have no idea why -- so throw more money at it!!
> 
> Incompetent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, but use the money to completely change the system.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't want to change the system.  You want to perpetuate it.
> 
> Who screeches the loudest at mention of education reform?  The left.
Click to expand...


*You have no idea what I think about education. I teach college, and all of my post graduate work was done in education. You are just ignorant and blinded by your hatred.*


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is where the 'liberal' schools complaint comes from.  I don't think that anyone here is on the side of not educating our entire populous.  Nor are they inherently against continued education.  What they are against is the current clip schools are taking in reinforcing self image above actually teaching, the idea that failure is not possible anymore in today's schools, the move to photocopying students rather than teaching critical thinking skills and having little to no customization in a curriculum.
Click to expand...


*Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*


----------



## Avatar4321

NoNukes said:


> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*



Reading, Writing, Arithmatic, and History is far more important.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> But what do they teach?  Do they teach math and science, or do they teach feelings and self-esteem like American schools?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's...kind of out of the context of my point. I agree with you that we should be teaching useful workable knowledge.
> 
> They don't' do that feel good crap american schools do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.
Click to expand...


*What are you referring to as touchy-feely crap?*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> [
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*




There we go.........


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There we go.........
Click to expand...


*Something that was obviously missing in your education.*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There we go.........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Something that was obviously missing in your education.*
Click to expand...



Not enough "self-image" sweetheart? What vomitous nonsense.


----------



## theliq

I think you all mean self esteem ??????????Now thats a different thing altogetherI'm theliq,ever living, ever faithful, ever sure.





Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> There we go.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Something that was obviously missing in your education.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not enough "self-image" sweetheart? What vomitous nonsense.
Click to expand...


----------



## editec

Our schools need reform?

Nonsense.

Our society needs reform.

Do that and the schools will reform themselves as if by magic.


----------



## NYcarbineer

daveman said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet American education lags behind the rest of the world.
> 
> If you guys are such hot shit, why aren't blue states better than the whole planet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're admitting that liberal states do better than conservative states?
> 
> lol, eureka!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm saying if you guys are so great, how come you still suck?
Click to expand...


So you deny that liberal states are doing better than conservative states?  You deny that education is better in Massachusetts than it is in Mississippi, for example?

Which is it?  Do you agree or disagree?


----------



## NYcarbineer

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you failed, and you have no idea why -- so throw more money at it!!
> 
> Incompetent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, but use the money to completely change the system.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't want to change the system.  You want to perpetuate it.
> 
> Who screeches the loudest at mention of education reform?  The left.
Click to expand...


What conservatives want to do to education is not reform, it's destruction.


----------



## NYcarbineer

FA_Q2 said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is where the 'liberal' schools complaint comes from.  I don't think that anyone here is on the side of not educating our entire populous.  Nor are they inherently against continued education.  What they are against is the current clip schools are taking in reinforcing self image above actually teaching, the idea that failure is not possible anymore in today's schools, the move to photocopying students rather than teaching critical thinking skills and having little to no customization in a curriculum.
Click to expand...


Well, I'm sure all that will be fixed once conservatives have gotten teacher pay down to a level where the profession can attract the best and brightest in America.


----------



## NoNukes

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're admitting that liberal states do better than conservative states?
> 
> lol, eureka!
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm saying if you guys are so great, how come you still suck?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you deny that liberal states are doing better than conservative states?  You deny that education is better in Massachusetts than it is in Mississippi, for example?
> 
> Which is it?  Do you agree or disagree?
Click to expand...


*And schools in Europe using 'liberal' techniques are successful.*


----------



## FA_Q2

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is where the 'liberal' schools complaint comes from.  I don't think that anyone here is on the side of not educating our entire populous.  Nor are they inherently against continued education.  What they are against is the current clip schools are taking in reinforcing self image above actually teaching, the idea that failure is not possible anymore in today's schools, the move to photocopying students rather than teaching critical thinking skills and having little to no customization in a curriculum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*
Click to expand...


Reinforcing self image is something that parents do.  Schools teach.  Also, avoiding failure is NOT reinforcing self image, it is destroying the ability to equate actions with results.

I don't send my child to school so he can 'feel' good.  He goes there to learn.


----------



## FA_Q2

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're admitting that liberal states do better than conservative states?
> 
> lol, eureka!
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm saying if you guys are so great, how come you still suck?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you deny that liberal states are doing better than conservative states?  You deny that education is better in Massachusetts than it is in Mississippi, for example?
> 
> Which is it?  Do you agree or disagree?
Click to expand...


You keep parroting this crap.  How about schools all over the country tend to not fall along your ideological bullshit.  No, liberal states are not necessarily better at education than conservative ones are and vice versa.  
Ranking of Middle Schools in USA
(middle school rankings in 03 as they want you to pay for rankings for HS and newer ones)
Best High Schools for Math and Science | US News Best High Schools
(includes private schools, magnet schools and charter schools for math and science) 

I am sure that you have a graph somewhere that you have been peeing your pants to post so go ahead and post it already.  I don't see why you needed someone to challenge you before you post any of your proof...


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is where the 'liberal' schools complaint comes from.  I don't think that anyone here is on the side of not educating our entire populous.  Nor are they inherently against continued education.  What they are against is the current clip schools are taking in reinforcing self image above actually teaching, the idea that failure is not possible anymore in today's schools, the move to photocopying students rather than teaching critical thinking skills and having little to no customization in a curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Reinforcing self image is something that parents do.  Schools teach.  Also, avoiding failure is NOT reinforcing self image, it is destroying the ability to equate actions with results.
> 
> I don't send my child to school so he can 'feel' good.  He goes there to learn.
Click to expand...


*My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm saying if you guys are so great, how come you still suck?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you deny that liberal states are doing better than conservative states?  You deny that education is better in Massachusetts than it is in Mississippi, for example?
> 
> Which is it?  Do you agree or disagree?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You keep parroting this crap.  How about schools all over the country tend to not fall along your ideological bullshit.  No, liberal states are not necessarily better at education than conservative ones are and vice versa.
> Ranking of Middle Schools in USA
> (middle school rankings in 03 as they want you to pay for rankings for HS and newer ones)
> Best High Schools for Math and Science | US News Best High Schools
> (includes private schools, magnet schools and charter schools for math and science)
> 
> I am sure that you have a graph somewhere that you have been peeing your pants to post so go ahead and post it already.  I don't see why you needed someone to challenge you before you post any of your proof...
Click to expand...


*The average grade attended in school is higher in blue states than red states.*


----------



## Lakhota




----------



## Photonic

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reinforcing self image is something that parents do.  Schools teach.  Also, avoiding failure is NOT reinforcing self image, it is destroying the ability to equate actions with results.
> 
> I don't send my child to school so he can 'feel' good.  He goes there to learn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
Click to expand...


Self confidence can be built through strife too. I postulate that self confidence gained on ones own is far greater than self confidence that is taught.


----------



## NoNukes

Photonic said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reinforcing self image is something that parents do.  Schools teach.  Also, avoiding failure is NOT reinforcing self image, it is destroying the ability to equate actions with results.
> 
> I don't send my child to school so he can 'feel' good.  He goes there to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Self confidence can be built through strife too. I postulate that self confidence gained on ones own is far greater than self confidence that is taught.
Click to expand...


Not everyone gets it this way.


----------



## Unkotare

They do if they're not coddled like little glass princesses and force fed 'self affirmation' all day long.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> They do if they're not coddled like little glass princesses and force fed 'self affirmation' all day long.



*Good thing for the youth of the world that you have no idea what you are talking about.*


----------



## FA_Q2

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you deny that liberal states are doing better than conservative states?  You deny that education is better in Massachusetts than it is in Mississippi, for example?
> 
> Which is it?  Do you agree or disagree?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You keep parroting this crap.  How about schools all over the country tend to not fall along your ideological bullshit.  No, liberal states are not necessarily better at education than conservative ones are and vice versa.
> Ranking of Middle Schools in USA
> (middle school rankings in 03 as they want you to pay for rankings for HS and newer ones)
> Best High Schools for Math and Science | US News Best High Schools
> (includes private schools, magnet schools and charter schools for math and science)
> 
> I am sure that you have a graph somewhere that you have been peeing your pants to post so go ahead and post it already.  I don't see why you needed someone to challenge you before you post any of your proof...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *The average grade attended in school is higher in blue states than red states.*
Click to expand...


Because he said so...


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> They do if they're not coddled like little glass princesses and force fed 'self affirmation' all day long.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Good thing for the youth of the world that you have no idea what you are talking about.*
Click to expand...



Wrong again, Nancy-boy.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Lakhota said:


>



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws]Obama Claims He&#39;s Visited 57 States - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jackson

Any state that does not test students with a National Standardized test is subject to criticism.  Many states do as Tennessee, make up their own, watered down version of test to alter the scores and make the schools appear better than they are.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> They do if they're not coddled like little glass princesses and force fed 'self affirmation' all day long.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Good thing for the youth of the world that you have no idea what you are talking about.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, Nancy-boy.
Click to expand...


*You have no intelligent retort, so you insult. You could use more self esteem, too bad you did not get it in school.*


----------



## Jackson

Newt Gingrich had an interesting proposal that anyone receiving Unemployment Benefits should be going to some sort of Education classes to retrain or increase their knowledge in their field to make them more employable.  That would be better thn them sitting at home doing nothing.

Newt appears to be a man with good ideas.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Good thing for the youth of the world that you have no idea what you are talking about.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, Nancy-boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *You have no intelligent retort, so you insult. You could use more self esteem, too bad you did not get it in school.*
Click to expand...



You must have been a real star at Al Franken High


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, Nancy-boy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You have no intelligent retort, so you insult. You could use more self esteem, too bad you did not get it in school.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You must have been a real star at Al Franken High
Click to expand...


*No, but I ran over him once on a softball field in New York.*


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, but use the money to completely change the system.*
> 
> 
> 
> You don't want to change the system.  You want to perpetuate it.
> 
> Who screeches the loudest at mention of education reform?  The left.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *You have no idea what I think about education. I teach college, and all of my post graduate work was done in education. You are just ignorant and blinded by your hatred.*
Click to expand...


Yeah, not really.  

Do you feel our current system is working?


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is where the 'liberal' schools complaint comes from.  I don't think that anyone here is on the side of not educating our entire populous.  Nor are they inherently against continued education.  What they are against is the current clip schools are taking in reinforcing self image above actually teaching, the idea that failure is not possible anymore in today's schools, the move to photocopying students rather than teaching critical thinking skills and having little to no customization in a curriculum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*
Click to expand...

That's the parents' job, not the government's.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's...kind of out of the context of my point. I agree with you that we should be teaching useful workable knowledge.
> 
> They don't' do that feel good crap american schools do.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. And I guarantee you conservatives would have a lot less objection to Federal involvement in schools if they weren't teaching touchy-feely crap and actually preparing kids for the real world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *What are you referring to as touchy-feely crap?*
Click to expand...

Self-esteem is more important than math.  There are no losers, everyone's a winner.  You get a medal just for participating.  We don't give Fs, because it might hurt the precious snowflake's feelings.  Can't play tag at recess because it encourages bullies and one kid being "it" is unfair.

I'm frankly amazed you had to ask.


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're admitting that liberal states do better than conservative states?
> 
> lol, eureka!
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm saying if you guys are so great, how come you still suck?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you deny that liberal states are doing better than conservative states?  You deny that education is better in Massachusetts than it is in Mississippi, for example?
> 
> Which is it?  Do you agree or disagree?
Click to expand...

In most of the country, education is dominated by liberals.    I can understand why you're desperately trying to  avoid that fact, and the fact that it's failed.


----------



## FA_Q2

Still no evidence of anything that has been claimed here by the lefts.  We are waiting...


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, but use the money to completely change the system.*
> 
> 
> 
> You don't want to change the system.  You want to perpetuate it.
> 
> Who screeches the loudest at mention of education reform?  The left.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What conservatives want to do to education is not reform, it's destruction.
Click to expand...

Uh huh.  What you refer to as "education" is really "liberal indoctrination".

That's what you're afraid of losing.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Reinforcing self image is much more important than you would believe in the development of a child.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reinforcing self image is something that parents do.  Schools teach.  Also, avoiding failure is NOT reinforcing self image, it is destroying the ability to equate actions with results.
> 
> I don't send my child to school so he can 'feel' good.  He goes there to learn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
Click to expand...

How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?

Apparently, not suitably ashamed.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you deny that liberal states are doing better than conservative states?  You deny that education is better in Massachusetts than it is in Mississippi, for example?
> 
> Which is it?  Do you agree or disagree?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You keep parroting this crap.  How about schools all over the country tend to not fall along your ideological bullshit.  No, liberal states are not necessarily better at education than conservative ones are and vice versa.
> Ranking of Middle Schools in USA
> (middle school rankings in 03 as they want you to pay for rankings for HS and newer ones)
> Best High Schools for Math and Science | US News Best High Schools
> (includes private schools, magnet schools and charter schools for math and science)
> 
> I am sure that you have a graph somewhere that you have been peeing your pants to post so go ahead and post it already.  I don't see why you needed someone to challenge you before you post any of your proof...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *The average grade attended in school is higher in blue states than red states.*
Click to expand...

And yet, oddly, more Republicans than Democrats have four-year degrees:












Reality doesn't give a damn about your leftist talking points.


----------



## daveman

FA_Q2 said:


> Still no evidence of anything that has been claimed here by the lefts.  We are waiting...



Leftists don't do evidence.  Their belief is sufficient.

Normal people, however, require a bit more.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reinforcing self image is something that parents do.  Schools teach.  Also, avoiding failure is NOT reinforcing self image, it is destroying the ability to equate actions with results.
> 
> I don't send my child to school so he can 'feel' good.  He goes there to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.
Click to expand...


*It is done both at school and at home. You argue with success because your hatred clouds your vision. You are just anti anything liberal, and thus not to be taken seriously.*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still no evidence of anything that has been claimed here by the lefts.  We are waiting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leftists don't do evidence.  Their belief is sufficient.
> 
> Normal people, however, require a bit more.
Click to expand...


*I am giving you firsthand evidence as an educator. How many of your opinions are based on knowledge?*


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still no evidence of anything that has been claimed here by the lefts.  We are waiting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leftists don't do evidence.  Their belief is sufficient.
> 
> Normal people, however, require a bit more.
Click to expand...


Normal tend to be religious, I do not think this makes a good statement.

Normal people are sheep.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *It is done both at school and at home.]*
Click to expand...

*



School is not the place for it, home is.*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reinforcing self image is something that parents do.  Schools teach.  Also, avoiding failure is NOT reinforcing self image, it is destroying the ability to equate actions with results.
> 
> I don't send my child to school so he can 'feel' good.  He goes there to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.*
Click to expand...



*Nutrition and dietary training should be taught at home, but look at how many obese American children there are. Discipline should be taught at home, but look at all of the disciplinary problems there are in American schools. Your point is a bad one, only used for a cheap insult. You constantly let yourself down because of your hatred. *


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It is done both at school and at home.]*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> School is not the place for it, home is.*
Click to expand...

*

If certain things were taught at home, there would not be as much need for them to be taught in school, See my above post to Dave. A lot of the failure in American education comes from the parents.*


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *It is done both at school and at home. You argue with success because your hatred clouds your vision. You are just anti anything liberal, and thus not to be taken seriously.*
Click to expand...

"Success"?  You call our current system successful?

Thanks for proving my point:  Education is not synonymous with intelligent.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still no evidence of anything that has been claimed here by the lefts.  We are waiting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leftists don't do evidence.  Their belief is sufficient.
> 
> Normal people, however, require a bit more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I am giving you firsthand evidence as an educator. How many of your opinions are based on knowledge?*
Click to expand...

You are giving opinion that may or may not be based on reality.  

In other words, you're insisting it's true because you say so.

Not impressed.  

Again, you prove my point:  Your belief is sufficient.  

But don't expect me to fall for it.

Maybe you should read my signature.  It applies to you.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still no evidence of anything that has been claimed here by the lefts.  We are waiting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leftists don't do evidence.  Their belief is sufficient.
> 
> Normal people, however, require a bit more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Normal tend to be religious, I do not think this makes a good statement.
> 
> Normal people are sheep.
Click to expand...

You have a dim view of humanity.  How very liberal.


----------



## editec

Jackson said:


> Newt Gingrich had an interesting proposal that anyone receiving Unemployment Benefits should be going to some sort of Education classes to retrain or increase their knowledge in their field to make them more employable. That would be better thn them sitting at home doing nothing.
> 
> Newt appears to be a man with good ideas.


 
Good idea.

Socialism, of course, but still...a good idea.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
> 
> 
> 
> *How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Nutrition and dietary training should be taught at home, but look at how many obese American children there are. Discipline should be taught at home, but look at all of the disciplinary problems there are in American schools. Your point is a bad one, only used for a cheap insult. You constantly let yourself down because of your hatred. *
Click to expand...

"Hatred"?  

Look, just because your worldview is based on emotionalism, doesn't mean everyone's is.  

And great job at ceding your responsibilities to the State.  Don't assume that because you're not capable of raising your children that no one else is.


----------



## FA_Q2

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *My children go to a progressive school that deals with giving them self confidence, and it is amazing. My son easily overcomes a learning disability because of self confidence. My children, 8 and 11 happily will go on a bus trip from New York City to Vermont without us. Self confidence helps the student deal with school in their high school years. Any teacher will tell you this. Today, too many homes have both parents in careers, or at least working, and the children are neglected as far as training. I feel sorry for your children if they are not confident and do not feel good about themselves.*
> 
> 
> 
> *How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Nutrition and dietary training should be taught at home, but look at how many obese American children there are. Discipline should be taught at home, but look at all of the disciplinary problems there are in American schools. Your point is a bad one, only used for a cheap insult. You constantly let yourself down because of your hatred. *
Click to expand...


This is mostly because parents have ceded their responsibility to the education system where it has been a complete failure.  Today, people don't just expect school to give students the information and tools they need.  They expect them to also feed them, care for them before and after school, teach them morals and values, cover sexual education and a host of other things that are not just parents responsibility but things that ONLY parents can instill in their children.  Taking that responsibility from parents is clearly not working.  Holding them accountable, now THAT'S a novel idea.


----------



## FA_Q2

Also, still waiting for someone to substantiate those asinine statements about how much better liberal states are with education, how much better left policies have been and any of the other partisan hack statements that have been put forth so far....


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *It is done both at school and at home.]*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> School is not the place for it, home is.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> If certain things were taught at home, there would not be as much need for them to be taught in school, See my above post to Dave. A lot of the failure in American education comes from the parents.*
Click to expand...

*


Teachers are not parents; schools are not home. That's why they always have and always will fail when they try to act the part.*


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leftists don't do evidence.  Their belief is sufficient.
> 
> Normal people, however, require a bit more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Normal tend to be religious, I do not think this makes a good statement.
> 
> Normal people are sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have a dim view of humanity.  How very liberal.
Click to expand...


You know damn well I'm non-partisan.


----------



## Photonic

FA_Q2 said:


> Also, still waiting for someone to substantiate those asinine statements about how much better liberal states are with education, how much better left policies have been and any of the other partisan hack statements that have been put forth so far....



It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.


----------



## aplcr0331

Photonic said:


> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.



Which countries have education that is better than ours in every way? Are your measurements based on test scores? Outcomes after primary schooling?


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> *How do you feel about a school doing what you should have done as a parent?
> 
> Apparently, not suitably ashamed.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nutrition and dietary training should be taught at home, but look at how many obese American children there are. Discipline should be taught at home, but look at all of the disciplinary problems there are in American schools. Your point is a bad one, only used for a cheap insult. You constantly let yourself down because of your hatred. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is mostly because parents have ceded their responsibility to the education system where it has been a complete failure.  Today, people don't just expect school to give students the information and tools they need.  They expect them to also feed them, care for them before and after school, teach them morals and values, cover sexual education and a host of other things that are not just parents responsibility but things that ONLY parents can instill in their children.  Taking that responsibility from parents is clearly not working.  Holding them accountable, now THAT'S a novel idea.
Click to expand...


*It was always the right way, and parents are accountable. This has happened because of the disintegration of the family unit from both parents working so that they can own more material goods.*


----------



## NoNukes

aplcr0331 said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which countries have education that is better than ours in every way? Are your measurements based on test scores? Outcomes after primary schooling?
Click to expand...


*It is because of demand from business for students from countries with superior educational systems.*


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> School is not the place for it, home is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If certain things were taught at home, there would not be as much need for them to be taught in school, See my above post to Dave. A lot of the failure in American education comes from the parents.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are not parents; schools are not home. That's why they always have and always will fail when they try to act the part.
Click to expand...


*I agree, and they should not be forced to play the part.*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> [/B]
> 
> *Nutrition and dietary training should be taught at home, but look at how many obese American children there are. Discipline should be taught at home, but look at all of the disciplinary problems there are in American schools. Your point is a bad one, only used for a cheap insult. You constantly let yourself down because of your hatred. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is mostly because parents have ceded their responsibility to the education system where it has been a complete failure.  Today, people don't just expect school to give students the information and tools they need.  They expect them to also feed them, care for them before and after school, teach them morals and values, cover sexual education and a host of other things that are not just parents responsibility but things that ONLY parents can instill in their children.  Taking that responsibility from parents is clearly not working.  Holding them accountable, now THAT'S a novel idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *It was always the right way, and parents are accountable. This has happened because of the disintegration of the family unit from both parents working so that they can own more material goods.*
Click to expand...




Oh brother...  ...the Marxist BS again...


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *If certain things were taught at home, there would not be as much need for them to be taught in school, See my above post to Dave. A lot of the failure in American education comes from the parents.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers are not parents; schools are not home. That's why they always have and always will fail when they try to act the part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I agree, and they should not be forced to play the part.*
Click to expand...



That doesn't seem to be what you've been saying here.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> aplcr0331 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which countries have education that is better than ours in every way? Are your measurements based on test scores? Outcomes after primary schooling?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *It is because of demand from business for students from countries with superior educational systems.*
Click to expand...




'Demand for students'?

?????????


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Normal tend to be religious, I do not think this makes a good statement.
> 
> Normal people are sheep.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a dim view of humanity.  How very liberal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know damn well I'm non-partisan.
Click to expand...

Yeah, not so much.


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, still waiting for someone to substantiate those asinine statements about how much better liberal states are with education, how much better left policies have been and any of the other partisan hack statements that have been put forth so far....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.
Click to expand...

Repeating an opinion is not substantiation.


----------



## Photonic

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, still waiting for someone to substantiate those asinine statements about how much better liberal states are with education, how much better left policies have been and any of the other partisan hack statements that have been put forth so far....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Repeating an opinion is not substantiation.
Click to expand...


I'm just stating fact. Not opinion.

Finland

In tertiary education, two mostly separate and non-interoperating sectors are found: the profession-oriented polytechnics and the research-oriented universities. Education is free and living expenses are to a large extent financed by the government through student benefits. There are 20 universities and 30 polytechnics in the country. Helsinki University is ranked 75th in the Top University Ranking of 2010.[71] The World Economic Forum ranks Finland's tertiary education #2 in the world.[72] Around 33% of residents have a tertiary degree, similar to Nordics and more than in most other OECD countries except Canada (44%), United States (38%) and Japan(37%).[73] The proportion of foreign students is 3% of all tertiary enrolments, one of the lowest in OECD, while in advanced programs it is 7.3%, still below OECD average 16.5%.[74]


Denmark


The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.

Norway


Higher education in Norway is offered by a range of seven universities, five specialized colleges, 25 university colleges as well as a range of private colleges. Education follows the Bologna Process involving Bachelor (3 years), Master (2 years) and PhD (3 years) degrees.[120] Acceptance is offered after finishing upper secondary school with general study competence.
Public education is virtually free, regardless of nationality,[121] with an academic year with two semesters, from August to December and from January to June. The ultimate responsibility for the education lies with the Norwegian Ministry of Education and Research.


One of the few is Australia that is similar to our current system. They are up there higher than us.

The US is pretty far down the list actually.


----------



## Unkotare

It should not be lost in all this that our universities are by far the best in the world, and that international students in the hundreds of thousands flock to the US (a strong majority from the very countries with which some like to compare us unfavorably) to study in our junior and senior high schools as well as universities.


----------



## Photonic

Unkotare said:


> It should not be lost in all this that our universities are by far the best in the world, and that international students in the hundreds of thousands flock to the US (a strong majority from the very countries with which some like to compare us unfavorably) to study in our junior and senior high schools as well as universities.



Why is our education so horrible in comparison than?


----------



## Unkotare

It's our public k-12 education that - on the average - comes up short. Our private schools, k-12 public in areas with functional families, and the competitive university system are excellent.


----------



## FA_Q2

Photonic said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> It should not be lost in all this that our universities are by far the best in the world, and that international students in the hundreds of thousands flock to the US (a strong majority from the very countries with which some like to compare us unfavorably) to study in our junior and senior high schools as well as universities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is our education so horrible in comparison than?
Click to expand...


Various reasons but the greatest is that we test and compare 100% of our populous while many other countries do not.  The ranking is not even.  Many countries do not offer higher education to those that have not proven they will need it.  In this, I am not talking about college either.  

Another is simple culture.  You will find that Asians place much more emphasis on succeeding as a measure of not only self worth but the worth of the entire family.  You not only fail yourself but you are bringing down the name as well.  Americans have continually moved to a celebration in mediocrity.  An asinine concept.

And yet other are more efficient simply because of size.  In the three that you mentioned there is a definite difference in the scope.  It is far more difficult to create and maintain an effective system that deals with 10 times the number of people.  As with any system, the larger it gets the more waste enters the system until you reach the point where you simply cannot sustain any semblance of effectiveness.  


There are many reasons that we are having problems with our education system.  The method of payment is not one of them.  Again, people here are acting like conservative think the solution is to remove 'free' pr public education.  THAT IS IN NO WAY TRUE AT ALL.  As a matter of fact, conservatives want to expand that by allowing people to transfer their children out of the school they are in and using those funds to pay for another.  You mentioned public funding, NO ONE IS AGAINST THAT.  They are against inefficient waste of resources.  A simple fact is that we pay more per student and get less.  That is asinine.  


So, I am sure that you can point out those 'liberal' policies that the conservatives are vehemently against that have made those foreign schools better than ours.  Or perhaps you can show the conservative ideas that have lead to worse schools in other lands or even this one...


----------



## Unkotare

FA_Q2 said:


> Another is simple culture.  You will find that Asians place much more emphasis on succeeding as a measure of not only self worth but the worth of the entire family.  You not only fail yourself but you are bringing down the name as well. ...





This generalization is problematic in several ways. You are equating 'race' with culture, for one. Do you really think that everyone in the most heavily populated region of earth is the same? There is a great diversity of cultures throughout Asia (and, of course, individually within each culture). In some of the poorer countries of SEA you will find people a lot more concerned with survival than education. This is the basis of the myth of the model minority that many students from Asia face when coming to the US. Students with a lot of the same challenges that face poor students with often difficult living situations from anywhere are held to unrealistic expectations just because they are 'Asian,' and it can be very discouraging. A poor Khmer student whose fractured family managed to secure asylum in the US is expected to be a carbon copy of a South Korean student from a wealthy family with a history of academic success and all the material support possible. It's unfair and unrealistic to equate the two. Even within the wealthier nations (or parts of nations) of NEA not everyone worships at the altar of education just because they are 'Asian.' There are truck drivers, gangsters, and layabouts in Japan, Korea, and Hong Kong as well. Part of the poor comparison with US education is that in those countries those students are unlikely to be factored into performance measures, whereas our lowest performing students are often the focus of attention (for good reason) and bring down the average. Finally, the ideal of valuing education is hardly exclusive to Asia. Ideals are more difficult to maintain in the face of poverty, violence, and corrosive influences. 

It is not a 'racial' thing, and a more nuanced cultural thing than people often stop to consider.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, still waiting for someone to substantiate those asinine statements about how much better liberal states are with education, how much better left policies have been and any of the other partisan hack statements that have been put forth so far....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Repeating an opinion is not substantiation.
Click to expand...


One reason that the education in America is worse than in other countries is people like you being unable to admit to it because you have tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is a disease in which perception is restricted by ignorance and distorted by vested interest. Tunnel vision is caused by an optic fungus that multiplies when the brain is less energetic than the ego. It is complicated by exposure to politics.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> *It should not be lost in all this that our universities are by far the best in the world,* and that international students in the hundreds of thousands flock to the US (a strong majority from the very countries with which some like to compare us unfavorably) to study in our junior and senior high schools as well as universities.



*This is simply not true. What are you basing it on? people flock to universities in Europe. They flock to European countries for a better life, Just as they come to the United States. Americans have little idea of what is happening in the rest of the world.*


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aplcr0331 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which countries have education that is better than ours in every way? Are your measurements based on test scores? Outcomes after primary schooling?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It is because of demand from business for students from countries with superior educational systems.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Demand for students'?
> 
> ?????????
Click to expand...

*Graduates.*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> *It should not be lost in all this that our universities are by far the best in the world,* and that international students in the hundreds of thousands flock to the US (a strong majority from the very countries with which some like to compare us unfavorably) to study in our junior and senior high schools as well as universities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is simply not true. What are you basing it on?]*
Click to expand...

*



This, jackass  http://www.topuniversities.com/top-100-universities-in-the-world-2011*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *It is because of demand from business for students from countries with superior educational systems.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Demand for students'?
> 
> ?????????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Graduates.*
Click to expand...



Those would be people who are no longer students.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Americans have little idea of what is happening in the rest of the world.[/B]





Speak for yourself, douchebag.


----------



## FA_Q2

Unkotare said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another is simple culture.  You will find that Asians place much more emphasis on succeeding as a measure of not only self worth but the worth of the entire family.  You not only fail yourself but you are bringing down the name as well. ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This generalization is problematic in several ways. You are equating 'race' with culture, for one. Do you really think that everyone in the most heavily populated region of earth is the same? There is a great diversity of cultures throughout Asia (and, of course, individually within each culture). In some of the poorer countries of SEA you will find people a lot more concerned with survival than education. This is the basis of the myth of the model minority that many students from Asia face when coming to the US. Students with a lot of the same challenges that face poor students with often difficult living situations from anywhere are held to unrealistic expectations just because they are 'Asian,' and it can be very discouraging. A poor Khmer student whose fractured family managed to secure asylum in the US is expected to be a carbon copy of a South Korean student from a wealthy family with a history of academic success and all the material support possible. It's unfair and unrealistic to equate the two. Even within the wealthier nations (or parts of nations) of NEA not everyone worships at the altar of education just because they are 'Asian.' There are truck drivers, gangsters, and layabouts in Japan, Korea, and Hong Kong as well. Part of the poor comparison with US education is that in those countries those students are unlikely to be factored into performance measures, whereas our lowest performing students are often the focus of attention (for good reason) and bring down the average. Finally, the ideal of valuing education is hardly exclusive to Asia. Ideals are more difficult to maintain in the face of poverty, violence, and corrosive influences.
> 
> It is not a 'racial' thing, and a more nuanced cultural thing than people often stop to consider.
Click to expand...


There are exceptions and it is a generalization but the fact remains that most Asian cultures place a higher value on success and honor than we currently have.  It is moot to the point anyway.  Whatever culture you are referring to and whatever specific peoples that you use, the point still stands.  That is one of the reasons that we are lagging behind in education.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Demand for students'?
> 
> ?????????
> 
> 
> 
> *Graduates.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those would be people who are no longer students.
Click to expand...


*I corrected myself, you are doing this because you are wrong, and this time of the night, or morning, you are pretty nasty. Could alcohol be involved?*


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans have little idea of what is happening in the rest of the world.[/B]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself, douchebag.
Click to expand...


*Who do you think I am speaking for? Why do you not get some sleep and sober up?*


----------



## daveman

Photonic said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating an opinion is not substantiation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm just stating fact. Not opinion.
Click to expand...

Until it's substantiated, it's opinion.


Photonic said:


> Finland
> 
> In tertiary education, two mostly separate and non-interoperating sectors are found: the profession-oriented polytechnics and the research-oriented universities. Education is free and living expenses are to a large extent financed by the government through student benefits. There are 20 universities and 30 polytechnics in the country. Helsinki University is ranked 75th in the Top University Ranking of 2010.[71] The World Economic Forum ranks Finland's tertiary education #2 in the world.[72] Around 33% of residents have a tertiary degree, similar to Nordics and more than in most other OECD countries except Canada (44%), United States (38%) and Japan(37%).[73] The proportion of foreign students is 3% of all tertiary enrolments, one of the lowest in OECD, while in advanced programs it is 7.3%, still below OECD average 16.5%.[74]
> 
> 
> Denmark
> 
> 
> The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.
> 
> Norway
> 
> 
> Higher education in Norway is offered by a range of seven universities, five specialized colleges, 25 university colleges as well as a range of private colleges. Education follows the Bologna Process involving Bachelor (3 years), Master (2 years) and PhD (3 years) degrees.[120] Acceptance is offered after finishing upper secondary school with general study competence.
> Public education is virtually free, regardless of nationality,[121] with an academic year with two semesters, from August to December and from January to June. The ultimate responsibility for the education lies with the Norwegian Ministry of Education and Research.
> 
> 
> One of the few is Australia that is similar to our current system. They are up there higher than us.
> 
> The US is pretty far down the list actually.


Link?  Otherwise, this is just more opinion.  

Nevertheless, all you're doing is proving that American liberals fail at educating kids.  

You know, something the right has been saying for decades.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's worked well in countries that have education that is better than ours in every way.
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating an opinion is not substantiation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One reason that the education in America is worse than in other countries is people like you being unable to admit to it because you have tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is a disease in which perception is restricted by ignorance and distorted by vested interest. Tunnel vision is caused by an optic fungus that multiplies when the brain is less energetic than the ego. It is complicated by exposure to politics.
Click to expand...

So, liberal-dominated education sucks -- and it's MY fault?  

Nice try, Skippy.  This one belongs to you guys.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Graduates.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those would be people who are no longer students.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I corrected myself, you are doing this because you are wrong, and this time of the night, or morning, you are pretty nasty. Could alcohol be involved?*
Click to expand...




You admit to the need to correct yourself but claim that I am wrong? I think you've got some wires crossed there, champ.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans have little idea of what is happening in the rest of the world.[/B]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself, douchebag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Who do you think I am speaking for? Why do you not get some sleep and sober up?*
Click to expand...


Well, when you say "Americans" it sure sounds as if you are trying to speak for "Americans." Are you with me so far? Clearly the likes of you cannot speak for all Americans, that's why I told you to speak for yourself, douchebag. That clear it up for ya? 

Talk about a need to sober up...you're less rational than usual so far.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating an opinion is not substantiation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just stating fact. Not opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Until it's substantiated, it's opinion.
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finland
> 
> In tertiary education, two mostly separate and non-interoperating sectors are found: the profession-oriented polytechnics and the research-oriented universities. Education is free and living expenses are to a large extent financed by the government through student benefits. There are 20 universities and 30 polytechnics in the country. Helsinki University is ranked 75th in the Top University Ranking of 2010.[71] The World Economic Forum ranks Finland's tertiary education #2 in the world.[72] Around 33% of residents have a tertiary degree, similar to Nordics and more than in most other OECD countries except Canada (44%), United States (38%) and Japan(37%).[73] The proportion of foreign students is 3% of all tertiary enrolments, one of the lowest in OECD, while in advanced programs it is 7.3%, still below OECD average 16.5%.[74]
> 
> 
> Denmark
> 
> 
> The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.
> 
> Norway
> 
> 
> Higher education in Norway is offered by a range of seven universities, five specialized colleges, 25 university colleges as well as a range of private colleges. Education follows the Bologna Process involving Bachelor (3 years), Master (2 years) and PhD (3 years) degrees.[120] Acceptance is offered after finishing upper secondary school with general study competence.
> Public education is virtually free, regardless of nationality,[121] with an academic year with two semesters, from August to December and from January to June. The ultimate responsibility for the education lies with the Norwegian Ministry of Education and Research.
> 
> 
> One of the few is Australia that is similar to our current system. They are up there higher than us.
> 
> The US is pretty far down the list actually.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link?  Otherwise, this is just more opinion.
> 
> Nevertheless, all you're doing is proving that American liberals fail at educating kids.
> 
> You know, something the right has been saying for decades.
Click to expand...


*Translation,'You are right, but I will never admit it.*


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself, douchebag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Who do you think I am speaking for? Why do you not get some sleep and sober up?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, when you say "Americans" is sure sounds as if you are trying to speak for "Americans." Are you with me so far? Clearly the likes of you cannot speak for all Americans, that's why I told you to speak for yourself, douchebag. That clear it up for ya?
> 
> Talk about a need to sober up...you're less rational than usual so far.
Click to expand...


*I was my opinion, and the opinion of many people worldwide, not speaking FOR Americans.*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Repeating an opinion is not substantiation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One reason that the education in America is worse than in other countries is people like you being unable to admit to it because you have tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is a disease in which perception is restricted by ignorance and distorted by vested interest. Tunnel vision is caused by an optic fungus that multiplies when the brain is less energetic than the ego. It is complicated by exposure to politics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, liberal-dominated education sucks -- and it's MY fault?
> 
> Nice try, Skippy.  This one belongs to you guys.
Click to expand...


*I was saying that people like you are one of the problems. There is plenty of blame to go around, but before we start criticizing, we have to take a look at ourselves.

You are once again displaying fierce symptoms of tunnel vision.*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Who do you think I am speaking for? Why do you not get some sleep and sober up?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, when you say "Americans" is sure sounds as if you are trying to speak for "Americans." Are you with me so far? Clearly the likes of you cannot speak for all Americans, that's why I told you to speak for yourself, douchebag. That clear it up for ya?
> 
> Talk about a need to sober up...you're less rational than usual so far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I was my opinion, and the opinion of many people worldwide, not speaking FOR Americans.*
Click to expand...


Then you need to work on your English skills (among other things).


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> *It should not be lost in all this that our universities are by far the best in the world,* and that international students in the hundreds of thousands flock to the US (a strong majority from the very countries with which some like to compare us unfavorably) to study in our junior and senior high schools as well as universities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is simply not true. What are you basing it on?]*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> This, jackass  http://www.topuniversities.com/top-100-universities-in-the-world-2011*
Click to expand...

*


What's that nonukes? You clearly see that I'm right and now you feel really stupid? Well, I don't blame you but try not to take it too hard.*


----------



## Photonic

Unkotare said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This is simply not true. What are you basing it on?]*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> This, jackass  http://www.topuniversities.com/top-100-universities-in-the-world-2011*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> 
> What's that nonukes? You clearly see that I'm right and now you feel really stupid? Well, I don't blame you but try not to take it too hard.*
Click to expand...

*

What's that...there is a vast number of temporary immigrants on student visas going to those schools...?

It means nothing to have those ranked universities unless we send a lot of our own citizens there.

We don't.*


----------



## Unkotare

Photonic said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> This, jackass  Top 100 Universities in the World 2010/2011 | Top Universities
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's that nonukes? You clearly see that I'm right and now you feel really stupid? Well, I don't blame you but try not to take it too hard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What's that...there is a vast number of temporary immigrants on student visas going to those schools...?
> 
> It means nothing to have those ranked universities unless we send a lot of our own citizens there.
> 
> We don't.
Click to expand...


We do.

American students are the *vast* majority at all of those American universities listed. Nice try at being pessimistic, but turn in your black turtleneck sweater and go home.


----------



## Jackson

I can't help but think this comes down to family values.  In our family, there was never a question our son would go to college, it was just which one.  The same values in my home as a child.

But, of the the friends my son hung around with, he was the only one furthering his education. To this day, none of them have a home to call their own where my son just built his third home.  And he felt he wasn't driven enough when he was a child because I didn't demand A's from the excellent private school he attended.

Now he expects all A"s from his children and has them go through on line education in addition to public school.

It is what is excpected from the start.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, when you say "Americans" is sure sounds as if you are trying to speak for "Americans." Are you with me so far? Clearly the likes of you cannot speak for all Americans, that's why I told you to speak for yourself, douchebag. That clear it up for ya?
> 
> Talk about a need to sober up...you're less rational than usual so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I was my opinion, and the opinion of many people worldwide, not speaking FOR Americans.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you need to work on your English skills (among other things).
Click to expand...


Sorry about that, I was typing quickly with my son talking to me, but I was still correct.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This is simply not true. What are you basing it on?]*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> This, jackass  Top 100 Universities in the World 2010/2011 | Top Universities*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> 
> What's that nonukes? You clearly see that I'm right and now you feel really stupid? Well, I don't blame you but try not to take it too hard.*
Click to expand...

*

Did not, and still do not have time to check out the link. I will get to it, because I am in the European academic community, and the link should be interesting, one way or the other.*


----------



## NoNukes

Had a quick glance at the link. Of the top ten schools, three of them are from the UK. If you compare the size of the two countries and the number of colleges in each country, the UK blows the US out of the water.

Who did this list, and what was it based on?


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I was my opinion, and the opinion of many people worldwide, not speaking FOR Americans.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you need to work on your English skills (among other things).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry about that, I was typing quickly with my son talking to me.
Click to expand...


Well, fair enough. that can be distracting.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Had a quick glance at the link. Of the top ten schools, three of them are from the UK. If you compare the size of the two countries and the number of colleges in each country, the UK blows the US out of the water.
> 
> Who did this list, and what was it based on?



Most in the top 10: US

Most int the tiop 20: US

Most in the top 50: US

Most in the top 100: US


No contest


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just stating fact. Not opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Until it's substantiated, it's opinion.
> 
> 
> Photonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finland
> 
> In tertiary education, two mostly separate and non-interoperating sectors are found: the profession-oriented polytechnics and the research-oriented universities. Education is free and living expenses are to a large extent financed by the government through student benefits. There are 20 universities and 30 polytechnics in the country. Helsinki University is ranked 75th in the Top University Ranking of 2010.[71] The World Economic Forum ranks Finland's tertiary education #2 in the world.[72] Around 33% of residents have a tertiary degree, similar to Nordics and more than in most other OECD countries except Canada (44%), United States (38%) and Japan(37%).[73] The proportion of foreign students is 3% of all tertiary enrolments, one of the lowest in OECD, while in advanced programs it is 7.3%, still below OECD average 16.5%.[74]
> 
> 
> Denmark
> 
> 
> The Danish education system provides access to primary school, secondary school and most kinds of higher education. Attendance at "Folkeskole" or equivalent education is compulsory for a minimum of 9 years. Equivalent education could be in private schools or classes attended at home. About 99% of students attend primary school, 86% attend secondary school, and 41% pursue further education. All college education in Denmark is free; there are no tuition fees to enroll in courses. Students in secondary school or higher and aged 18 or above may apply for student support which provides fixed financial support, disbursed monthly.
> 
> Norway
> 
> 
> Higher education in Norway is offered by a range of seven universities, five specialized colleges, 25 university colleges as well as a range of private colleges. Education follows the Bologna Process involving Bachelor (3 years), Master (2 years) and PhD (3 years) degrees.[120] Acceptance is offered after finishing upper secondary school with general study competence.
> Public education is virtually free, regardless of nationality,[121] with an academic year with two semesters, from August to December and from January to June. The ultimate responsibility for the education lies with the Norwegian Ministry of Education and Research.
> 
> 
> One of the few is Australia that is similar to our current system. They are up there higher than us.
> 
> The US is pretty far down the list actually.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link?  Otherwise, this is just more opinion.
> 
> Nevertheless, all you're doing is proving that American liberals fail at educating kids.
> 
> You know, something the right has been saying for decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Translation,'You are right, but I will never admit it.*
Click to expand...

Worst.  Translation.  Ever.  

Look, if you're just going to read what you want, instead of what I actually write, there's really no point in my wasting my time with you.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> One reason that the education in America is worse than in other countries is people like you being unable to admit to it because you have tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is a disease in which perception is restricted by ignorance and distorted by vested interest. Tunnel vision is caused by an optic fungus that multiplies when the brain is less energetic than the ego. It is complicated by exposure to politics.
> 
> 
> 
> So, liberal-dominated education sucks -- and it's MY fault?
> 
> Nice try, Skippy.  This one belongs to you guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I was saying that people like you are one of the problems. There is plenty of blame to go around, but before we start criticizing, we have to take a look at ourselves.
> 
> You are once again displaying fierce symptoms of tunnel vision.*
Click to expand...

I don't see you being very introspective.  I see you claiming that you're right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

But when you do it, I guess it's different.  Somehow.  It just is.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had a quick glance at the link. Of the top ten schools, three of them are from the UK. If you compare the size of the two countries and the number of colleges in each country, the UK blows the US out of the water.
> 
> Who did this list, and what was it based on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most in the top 10: US
> 
> Most int the tiop 20: US
> 
> Most in the top 50: US
> 
> Most in the top 100: US
> 
> 
> No contest
Click to expand...


*If you go by population this is not as significant. But let us forget about that.

Yes, you are right, America has many great colleges, exceptional centers of knowledge and education. Unfortunately, they do not reflect the educational system in general, or even American colleges in general. The American system of education is what is lacking, not Harvard or Yale.*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, liberal-dominated education sucks -- and it's MY fault?
> 
> Nice try, Skippy.  This one belongs to you guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I was saying that people like you are one of the problems. There is plenty of blame to go around, but before we start criticizing, we have to take a look at ourselves.
> 
> You are once again displaying fierce symptoms of tunnel vision.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't see you being very introspective.  I see you claiming that you're right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
> 
> But when you do it, I guess it's different.  Somehow.  It just is.
Click to expand...


*You obviously have trouble comprehending what other people write.*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> America has many great colleges




By far the best in the world.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> [ The American system of education is what is lacking.[/B]




Not so much, no.


----------



## Douger

Pretty murkin girs.......if there are any left then..........can " work" for the wealthy Latinos and Asians that will own the US of fallen Mpyre over the *cum*ming decades.


----------



## Douger

Brazilians Investing in Miami Beach, Fort Lauderdale & Orlando | Miami Real Estate Cafe


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I was saying that people like you are one of the problems. There is plenty of blame to go around, but before we start criticizing, we have to take a look at ourselves.
> 
> You are once again displaying fierce symptoms of tunnel vision.*
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see you being very introspective.  I see you claiming that you're right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
> 
> But when you do it, I guess it's different.  Somehow.  It just is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *You obviously have trouble comprehending what other people write.*
Click to expand...

Not at all.  Perhaps you have trouble writing clearly.  

Or perhaps, as is more likely, you're just full of crap.


----------



## FA_Q2

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had a quick glance at the link. Of the top ten schools, three of them are from the UK. If you compare the size of the two countries and the number of colleges in each country, the UK blows the US out of the water.
> 
> Who did this list, and what was it based on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most in the top 10: US
> 
> Most int the tiop 20: US
> 
> Most in the top 50: US
> 
> Most in the top 100: US
> 
> 
> No contest
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *If you go by population this is not as significant. But let us forget about that.
> 
> Yes, you are right, America has many great colleges, exceptional centers of knowledge and education. Unfortunately, they do not reflect the educational system in general, or even American colleges in general. The American system of education is what is lacking, not Harvard or Yale.*
Click to expand...


Yet another example of changing the goalposts and posting crap opinion without backing it up with anything.  I have noted that both you and Nycarb have made multiple claims in this thread but at  over 30 pages there has not been one single actual piece of evidence, fact or even logical argument to back your opinions.  All you have posted is your word on this subject and expect it to be taken as fact.

News flash - your word is meaningless here.  Post something that actually has some fact or evidence for your wild ass claims.


----------



## editec

FREE HIGHER education would be an amazingly good stimulus policy.

It would put some people to work and it would take many people off the unemployment rolls, too.

In the longer run we'd have a more educated productive workforce, too.

But that makes too much sense.

It will never happen.


----------



## Katzndogz

editec said:


> FREE HIGHER education would be an amazingly good stimulus policy.
> 
> It would put some people to work and it would take many people off the unemployment rolls, too.
> 
> In the longer run we'd have a more educated productive workforce, too.
> 
> But that makes too much sense.
> 
> It will never happen.



It would do no such thing.  Free higher education would have no more of an effect than free primary education.   The existence of buildings, the number of filled seats, have nothing to do with education.  We would have the same illiterate dolts in college as we have in high school making the same demands for social promotion.


----------



## daveman

editec said:


> FREE HIGHER education would be an amazingly good stimulus policy.
> 
> It would put some people to work and it would take many people off the unemployment rolls, too.
> 
> In the longer run we'd have a more educated productive workforce, too.
> 
> But that makes too much sense.
> 
> It will never happen.


Free?  Oh, the teachers don't get paid?  Textbook publishers give them away for nothing?

TANSTAAFL.


----------



## Unkotare

editec said:


> FREE HIGHER education would be an amazingly good stimulus policy.
> .




No, it would not.


----------



## Douger

Yep.


----------



## NoNukes

FA_Q2 said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most in the top 10: US
> 
> Most int the tiop 20: US
> 
> Most in the top 50: US
> 
> Most in the top 100: US
> 
> 
> No contest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If you go by population this is not as significant. But let us forget about that.
> 
> Yes, you are right, America has many great colleges, exceptional centers of knowledge and education. Unfortunately, they do not reflect the educational system in general, or even American colleges in general. The American system of education is what is lacking, not Harvard or Yale.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet another example of changing the goalposts and posting crap opinion without backing it up with anything.  I have noted that both you and Nycarb have made multiple claims in this thread but at  over 30 pages there has not been one single actual piece of evidence, fact or even logical argument to back your opinions.  All you have posted is your word on this subject and expect it to be taken as fact.
> 
> News flash - your word is meaningless here.  Post something that actually has some fact or evidence for your wild ass claims.
Click to expand...


*Experience as a teacher in a discussion of education is not evidence?*


----------



## NoNukes

editec said:


> FREE HIGHER education would be an amazingly good stimulus policy.
> 
> It would put some people to work and it would take many people off the unemployment rolls, too.
> 
> In the longer run we'd have a more educated productive workforce, too.
> 
> But that makes too much sense.
> 
> It will never happen.



*Higher education in Ireland is basically free.*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> FREE HIGHER education would be an amazingly good stimulus policy.
> 
> It would put some people to work and it would take many people off the unemployment rolls, too.
> 
> In the longer run we'd have a more educated productive workforce, too.
> 
> But that makes too much sense.
> 
> It will never happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Higher education in Ireland is basically free.*
Click to expand...


Wrong.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> FREE HIGHER education would be an amazingly good stimulus policy.
> 
> It would put some people to work and it would take many people off the unemployment rolls, too.
> 
> In the longer run we'd have a more educated productive workforce, too.
> 
> But that makes too much sense.
> 
> It will never happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Higher education in Ireland is basically free.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong.
Click to expand...


*There is no tuition, at the moment, basically just administration fees and books. Why do you think that this is wrong?*


----------



## Unkotare

It's not free. Nothing is.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Higher education in Ireland is basically free.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *There is no tuition, at the moment, basically just administration fees and books. Why do you think that this is wrong?*
Click to expand...

Who's paying the professors?


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> It's not free. Nothing is.



*Fair enough. There is no tuition then.*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There is no tuition, at the moment, basically just administration fees and books. Why do you think that this is wrong?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's paying the professors?
Click to expand...


*The school, through the government, by taxation.*


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## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *There is no tuition, at the moment, basically just administration fees and books. Why do you think that this is wrong?*
> 
> 
> 
> Who's paying the professors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *The government.*
Click to expand...



Not really. They are just handling the money. Who is really paying?


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's paying the professors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The government.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. They are just handling the money. Who is really paying?
Click to expand...


*Yes, I just got on here to amend this. By the school, through the government, by taxation. If the money that I pay my taxes with is earned from the school, is it the school that is paying me? 

You do not sleep much, do you?
*


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## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The government.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. They are just handling the money. Who is really paying?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Yes, I just got on here to amend this. By the school, through the government, by taxation. If the money that I pay my taxes with is earned from the school, is it the school that is paying me?
> *
Click to expand...



Take a deep breath and try again.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. They are just handling the money. Who is really paying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, I just got on here to amend this. By the school, through the government, by taxation. If the money that I pay my taxes with is earned from the school, is it the school that is paying me?
> *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Take a deep breath and try again.
Click to expand...

*????*


----------



## Unkotare

Come on...you can do it...where do taxes come from? (no, not the magical money fairy)...take your time...think carefully...


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *There is no tuition, at the moment, basically just administration fees and books. Why do you think that this is wrong?*
> 
> 
> 
> Who's paying the professors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *The school, through the government, by taxation.*
Click to expand...

Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.

Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?


----------



## Wumplestiltskin

Douger said:


> Yep.


Man. You aren't right in the head


----------



## Katzndogz

People know that higher education isn't free.  As long as they aren't paying for it it's free.  That's all they care about.   Someone else should pay.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's paying the professors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The school, through the government, by taxation.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
Click to expand...


*Do your taxes pay for your kids education? *


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's paying the professors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The school, through the government, by taxation.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
Click to expand...


*You may think that calling people dumb makes you look smart, but it just makes you look insecure.*


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The school, through the government, by taxation.*
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *You may think that calling people dumb makes you look smart, but it just makes you look insecure.*
Click to expand...



Actually, in this case he's right on the money.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You may think that calling people dumb makes you look smart, but it just makes you look insecure.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, in this case he's right on the money.
Click to expand...


* I am a bit disappointed with you, Unkotare, because you show some promise. We do not expect any better from Daveman.*


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The school, through the government, by taxation.*
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Do your taxes pay for your kids education? *
Click to expand...

Yes.  Thanks for proving yourself wrong.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The school, through the government, by taxation.*
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *You may think that calling people dumb makes you look smart, but it just makes you look insecure.*
Click to expand...

Hint:  Don't say dumb things like "there is free college education", and I won't call you dumb.

Simple, huh?  Ball's in your court.


----------



## daveman

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> *You may think that calling people dumb makes you look smart, but it just makes you look insecure.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, in this case he's right on the money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I am a bit disappointed with you, Unkotare, because you show some promise. We do not expect any better from Daveman.*
Click to expand...

Must be that free college education I got...

Oh, wait, no, I didn't.  Somebody paid for it.

Dumbass.


----------



## theliq

Good Morning Dave,I am starting to warm to you,as I have been checking you out from time to time,and here again I tend to agree with you.
I will note that your use of suspect photos has diminished greatly,which makes your prose so much better the


daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Do your taxes pay for your kids education? *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.  Thanks for proving yourself wrong.
Click to expand...


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Do your taxes pay for your kids education? *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.  Thanks for proving yourself wrong.
Click to expand...


*Does it pay their college tuition?*


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You may think that calling people dumb makes you look smart, but it just makes you look insecure.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hint:  Don't say dumb things like "there is free college education", and I won't call you dumb.
> 
> Simple, huh?  Ball's in your court.
Click to expand...


I said that college in Ireland is _basically free._ and then amended it to no tuition is paid so that you might comprehend it. Perhaps a remedial reading course would help you.


----------



## NoNukes

daveman said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's not free, is it?  Someone's paying for it.
> 
> Damn, just exactly how dumb _are_ you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *You may think that calling people dumb makes you look smart, but it just makes you look insecure.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hint:  Don't say dumb things like "there is free college education", and I won't call you dumb.
> 
> Simple, huh?  Ball's in your court.
Click to expand...


*I said that college in Ireland is basically free. and then amended it to no tuition is paid so that you might comprehend it. Perhaps a remedial reading course would help you.*


----------

