# Israel / Palestine Peace Plan



## custom-uniforms (Jan 3, 2010)

Israel / Palestine Peace Plan - A Federation of two States.

Someday leaders in Israel / Palestine will discuss a time tested democratic political formula that has ended many wars in history called a Confederation or Federation of States.

Traditionally States in a Federation join their finalized State borders together to form sea to sea, undivided, maximized, International borders for all citizens of the Federation and all Federations share Federal capital. In my opinion each State requires two Provinces each and Jerusalem would be a mixed Province.

Canada and the USA are two examples of federations that ended wars. Federations need to pick a capital and in my opinion Jerusalem should be the world recognized undisputed capital of the State of Israel and the State of Palestine like Washington and Ottawa. 

Islam has had a presence in the Holy Land for over 1,500 years and Judaism even longer so those who say the other religion has no claim are selfish and not wise in my opinion. The only hope for a lasting peace is a new win win political system and I believe this is it. 

The plan suggests an all Hebrew language State government of Israel and an all Arabic language State government of Palestine in a two State Federation. In my opinion only the federal level should be bi-lingual but the two State governments should be conducted in the two different official languages of the Federation with different national anthems. 

This plan would forever guarantee Hebrew as the official language of the State of Israel and it would guarantee Arabic as the official language of the State of Palestine.

If you are a non Jewish citizen or politician of the State of Israel you would remain an Israeli citizens unless you apply to be a citizen of the State of Palestine and give up your Israeli citizenship.

Agreed on Federal laws would protect both Israelis and Palestinian citizens as legal equals with equal rights. The main differences would be the elections you vote in. Under this plan non Jewish Israeli politicians would need to speak Hebrew in the State government or employ a translator if their particular area remains in the State of Israel.

Politically on the ground a federation requires all three levels of Government found in other federal democracies. Citizens would elect a city government, elect the State governments and in my opinion elect a Federal government of equality.

In my opinion a restored Holy Land with Jerusalem as the world recognized undisputed capital of the State of Israel and Palestine would be an economic Super State with new markets not to mention the peace dividend for both States.

All Federal laws and all Federal department publications and signs and forms would be bi-lingual printed in both Arabic and Hebrew. In my opinion the States governments affairs and publications would not be officially bi-lingual at the State level but private companies can do translations.

The proposed Federal constitution of Israel / Palestine is based upon equality and must forever guarantee only two States with 50% - 50% equal representation from each of the two States. 

If other countries wanted to join the Federation there is a process. Any expansion of Israel / Palestine would require a unanimous vote of Federal Ministers from the two States and not effect the 50%-50% constitutional composition of the Federation. 

In my opinion there should be two non voting federal leaders one from each State. These elected co-presidents of the Federation of Israel / Palestine would take turns directing questions asked to the federal department heads from other politicians, the media and the general public and about their department's business plan and progress.

If the federal ministers do not get along and can not come up with any programs that benefit both States they would probably not be re-elected in three years at the next Federal elections. In my opinions all municipal, State and Federal elections would be held on the same dates for both States. I'm suggesting 3 years because 2 is too short and 4 feels too long.

Permanent equal representation from each State will insure that no side is ever in power over the other side and only good ideas will pass that will benefit both States. The agreed on federal laws would apply to all the citizens of the Federation and like in other federations federal laws override State laws and citizens can appeal to the elected 10 member federal court of equality.

This federal solution also deals with Palestinian immigration and the right of return. Example of the Solution: If a new citizen of the Federation chooses Hebrew as their preferred language on the citizenship application they would become a citizen of the State of Israel only and have no effect on the State of Palestine elections. 

Also Palestinians returning to or joining Palestine would probably choose Arabic as their preferred language on the citizenship application and would become citizens only of the State of Palestine only and have no vote in the State of Israel's affairs.

A Federation would eliminate the power struggle over majority language rule. The Federal level would always remain equal representation from each State therefore the number of citizens of each State has becomes totally irrelevant and not a threat.

The various cities and municipalities within Israel / Palestine can have Hebrew and Arabic names. The various municipalities would be classified on the internal map of Israel / Palestine as either blue for a Hebrew language city, or red for an Arabic language city or purple for a mixed language city on the map. 

States in a federation have a common currency with one language per side. The States enjoy free trade between States. Federations have one army and all citizens have legal equality under Federal laws. There is also the freedom of mobility to live and work anywhere in the Federation you choose. 

A Palestinian may live in a Hebrew area within the State of Israel and only vote in the State of Palestine's elections. Citizenship is a language classification only and does not have to do with religion or race. 

How to do it: The seeds for a Federation can be planted when the Palestinian and Israeli leaders discuss this peace plan and the State governments agree to elect representatives to co-chair a federal department to duplicate a State power and see the results. A federation based on equality requires co-ministers of Tourism, co-ministers of Public Education, Public Health, International Trade  and many other typical federal departments.

To ensure equality every federal department would have an equal number of employees from each State to staff the federal departments. If you look at the list of the Canadian French / English federal government departments and programs there could almost be full employment just by staffing all the federal departments.

The proposed federal supreme court of Israel / Palestine would arbitrate State disputes and protect all citizens civil rights. In my opinion Israel / Palestine needs a new constitution based on my suggestions and there also a needs to be a citizen's charter of rights. Citizens can appeal State judgments to the higher Federal court. 

In my opinion the federal politicians should have offices in a new Federal parliament building to be built in Jerusalem the capital of Israel / Palestine. In my opinion there should be protected public galleries built with microphones for citizen to participate in the Federal government.

I propose all members of integrated State police and integrated army of Palestine / Israel speak only in English while on the job. English should be the official second language of both States and be the official first language of the army and police. To be in the army, police department you need to know English and only speak in English while on the job carrying a gun to inure trust.

This peace plan would end the dispute in my opinion and put Israel / Palestine on the map at maximum borders. Jerusalem would be the world recognized undisputed capital of the State of Israel.  It would also be the capital of State of Palestine. There would be  blue and red municipalities contributing to State governments. The wars should end because if you are an equal citizen form coast to coast how can you want more than all of it. 

The big question is when will the selfish people stop believing the other side has no rights and agree on a win win compromise. Please let me know if you have any questions, criticisms or ideas on how to improve the proposed federation of Israel / Palestine.

Thanks,  Terry Hirchberg


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 3, 2010)

Interesting. What would be the solution for a town like Najd?


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 3, 2010)

Just as soon as the Arabs agree to stop killing the Jews.


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## custom-uniforms (Jan 3, 2010)

OK Sgt.
I'll take that as a conditional yes vote.
Not all Muslims or Arabs kill Jews on a daily bases because
murder is against our common 10 commandments.

Hi PFT,

You ask a good question.
I'm from Canada and never heard of the place but
I did a search.

If you look at the original UN partition map and
the map that Mr. Arafat almost agreed to Najd is near Rammala
and would be in the State of Palestine.

I learned the original owners were forced to leave 
and the whole town was leveled and a new city was built in it's place.

In my opinion the Israel / Palestine currency would do well on world currency markets 
after there is a signed peace agreement and the country could afford to pay reparations
to all those who were victims of war.

I'm not sure if the new city built on the ashes is an Israeli settlement.
May you know the history and can inform me.

Israeli Hebrew settlements in either of the Provinces of the State of Palestine 
would only vote in the State of Israel elections.

All cities call have Hebrew and Arabic names so the name Najd could be used again.

I also learned there is a city iin Saudia Arabia with the same Najd.
They have a unique dialect of Arabic.

If a tribe or people have a unique language it would be protected at the city or municipal level.
The North American so called Indians have language protection at their municipal (reserve) level and are equal citizens of the USA federation from coast to coast. That is why they stopped derailing trains and burning stuff down.
In my opinion the Indians would still be terrorists today if they were not included as equals citizens of the USA and Canadian Federations.

Please let me know if I answered your question.

Thanks,  Terry


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

When the IDF stop shooting stone throwers, and the Pals stop suicide bombers, there might be a start.

If the occupiers of the West Bank get it through their thick skulls to leave the WB to the Palestinians, and the Pals realise that the right of return is never going to happen, then they might start getting somewhere.

It's all about compromise, something both sides are not good at...


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## jillian (Jan 3, 2010)

the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


> the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.



They were offered less than one per cent of the land....as i said a while ago, reading a book called The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. The Israelis never had any intention of withdrawing from the WB or stopping settlements...


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


> the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.



Don't bother with facts Jillian, the pea brains that hate can not fathom them.


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## elvis (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> jillian said:
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> > the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.
> ...



I thought Sharon had those settlements destroyed.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 3, 2010)

elvis3577 said:


> Dr Grump said:
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Again with the facts, quit it you will make them mad.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


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From Wiki:

'In December 2009, the Israeli government ordered a 10-month lull in permits for new settlement homes in the West Bank.[32] *The restrictions*, which Israeli politicians and media have referred to as a "freeze"[32], *do not apply to East Jerusalem (whose annexation by Israel is not recognised internationally), municipal buildings, schools, synagogues and other community infrastructure in the settlements.*[32][33] About 3,000 homes already under construction will be allowed to proceed.[32] The Israeli government said the move was aimed at restarting peace talks, but Palestinian officials said it was insufficient.[32] Palestinian officials have refused to rejoin peace talks until a total building halt is imposed, including in East Jerusalem.[32] The announcement followed calls by the US government for a total freeze in settlement building.[32] The US government, the European Union, Russia and the UN have criticized Israel's plans to continue building in East Jerusalem[34] but both the US and the EU have stated that there should be no preconditions for resuming the suspended peace talks.[35]"

Maybe he did, but other building is ongoing...


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## jillian (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> jillian said:
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> > the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.
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as i recall, they were offered all of gaza (which they were given anyway and then used as a staging area for missile strikes), all of the west bank...as i recall, it came to about 98 percent of what was being demanded.

bill clinton's plan, i learned later, even HAD a right of return of sorts....something I would never expect israel to agree to.

the palestinians have zero interest in any resolution that leaves israel in existence. before any deal can be worked THAT has to change.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


> as i recall, they were offered all of gaza (which they were given anyway and then used as a staging area for missile strikes), all of the west bank...as i recall, it came to about 98 percent of what was being demanded.
> 
> bill clinton's plan, i learned later, even HAD a right of return of sorts....something I would never expect israel to agree to.
> 
> the palestinians have zero interest in any resolution that leaves israel in existence. before any deal can be worked THAT has to change.



They were offered all of the west bank, but don't you find it disingenuous that AFTER Arafat and Rabin shook hands on the WH lawn, the Israelis were STILL building settlements? And there are still settlements there.

I would say SOME Pals don't want an Israel, just as some Israelis don't want a Palestine....There are enough quotes from both sides in the book stating such. However, there are also a tonne of quotes from both sides who want an end to the fighting and would be happy for the Shin Bet/Mossad killings and Palestinian suicide bombers to cease. Quite a number of Pals hate the Islamists.

one thing the book pointed out, which I doubt a lot of people realised, was how weak Arafat was..not just with dealing with Israel, but with his own people...


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## jillian (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> They were offered all of the west bank, but don't you find it disingenuous that AFTER Arafat and Rabin shook hands on the WH lawn, the Israelis were STILL building settlements? And there are still settlements there.
> 
> I would say SOME Pals don't want an Israel, just as some Israelis don't want a Palestine....There are enough quotes from both sides in the book stating such. However, there are also a tonne of quotes from both sides who want an end to the fighting and would be happy for the Shin Bet/Mossad killings and Palestinian suicide bombers to cease. Quite a number of Pals hate the Islamists.
> 
> one thing the book pointed out, which I doubt a lot of people realised, was how weak Arafat was..not just with dealing with Israel, but with his own people...



I'm not sure that they were still building settlements. I'd have to go back and check. I seem to recall Israeli's being dragged out of their homes by Israeli officers who were none too happy about doing it. 

And that wasn't the reason no agreement was signed. It wasn't signed because Arafat said he couldn't make a deal or he'd be "drinking tea with Rabin". Israel, at that point, would have given almost anything... mind you, I said almost.

Arafat wasn't that weak at that point because he had the international community backing him.

Don't you find it interesting that every time Israel makes a peace deal, they stick to it. They made a deal with Egypt... they made a deal with Jordan... they would stay peaceful with Lebanon too if Hezbollah didn't have so much power there.

Also, if you think about it, every time there is a jewish community in trouble, Israel takes them in. Don't you wonder why no one takes in the pals?

Also, in terms of history, it just seems absurd to me in a way. Even if the jews really were the bad guys (which they weren't and aren't) every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.... except the Pals who are used by the arabs to be the thorn in their people's sides and distract from their own internal problems.

You don't see me shooting bombs over the border of Belarus and demanding my family's land back.


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## elvis (Jan 3, 2010)

Why should Israel trust anything the PA says when their leader is straight from Hamas?


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


> Dr Grump said:
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> > They were offered all of the west bank, but don't you find it disingenuous that AFTER Arafat and Rabin shook hands on the WH lawn, the Israelis were STILL building settlements? And there are still settlements there.
> ...



It you look at the link to Wiki, they were still giving permits to build.

Arafat was weak - his own people hated him for Oslo and never forgave him for going into negotiations without their permission. They knew it was as bad deal from the get-go. They wanted UN 242 to be adhered to (except for the right of return, I see no problem with the deal)...

Er, but the Pals were always there....the name of the people may have changed, but they have always been there..where else are they to go? 

And don't get all high and mighty about the Jews being the good guys (as far as this conflict goes). There is enough shame on both sides IMO.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

elvis3577 said:


> Why should Israel trust anything the PA says when their leader is straight from Hamas?



Why should the Pals trust the Israelis, who never intended to keep their word with Oslo?


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## jillian (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> It you look at the link to Wiki, they were still giving permits to build.
> 
> Arafat was weak - his own people hated him for Oslo and never forgave him for going into negotiations without their permission. They knew it was as bad deal from the get-go. They wanted UN 242 to be adhered to (except for the right of return, I see no problem with the deal)...
> 
> ...



I'll look at the wiki link. But even if that were the case, what other nation is asked to make it's concessions BEFORE negotiations?

Oslo wasn't a bad deal at all. How could 98 percent of what they wanted be a bad deal? The fact that his "people" didn't want it should tell you something. Rabin died for his willingness to make that deal. Whether it was a perfect deal from either perspective...it wasn't... but I've always been told that any good resolution leaves both parties a little ticked off.

Blame? Maybe... I certainly didn't agree with some of the things Sharon did when he was in charge. But if you look at the percentages of pals who want a two-state solution and who are willing to make peace, you'll find that isn't what they want. Did the PA ever remove it's goal of the destruction of Israel from its charter?

and, no, they weren't "always there"... they were mostly bedouin. and they were part of transjordan. like is said, i'm not at the border of belarus demanding my ancestral property back... my family was always there.


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## elvis (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> elvis3577 said:
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so because a treaty may have been violated, the palis should be allowed to blow Israelis to pieces and attempt to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean?   That is, after all, the goal of Hamas.


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## jillian (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> elvis3577 said:
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why would you say that when arafat is the one who wouldn't sign the deal?

israel has kept to its treaties with Egypt, Jordan, Syria... and Lebanon (except for defending itself from Hezbollah since Lebanon couldn't control them) why would you say that?


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


> I'll look at the wiki link. But even if that were the case, what other nation is asked to make it's concessions BEFORE negotiations?
> 
> Oslo wasn't a bad deal at all. How could 98 percent of what they wanted be a bad deal? The fact that his "people" didn't want it should tell you something. Rabin died for his willingness to make that deal. Whether it was a perfect deal from either perspective...it wasn't... but I've always been told that any good resolution leaves both parties a little ticked off.
> 
> ...



No, those were not concessions before negotiations, that was part of the original deal.

I think what you are missing the point re Oslo, it doesn't matter whether it was 98 or 100 percent, the Israelis were never going to agree to the deal anyway. It reads like the right of return and East Jerusalem were put in there on purpose because they knew the Pals wold not accept it for those two reasons alone....

That is untrue Jillian with regard to them being Bedouin...they have had villages their villages there for centuries.

The Belurus analogy is being disingenuous because both you and I know that the reason the Jewish people were offered Israel was because it was their ancestral homeland before the diaspora, so you could trace your ancestors back there. Ditto the Pals and Palestine (the name came from the Philistines, who as you know, have been there since Adam, too).

Let's not forget that the Jews and Arabs are the same people separated by a religion....they are both Sematic...


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


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Egypt was land for peace, Jordan are weak as fuck. What treaty with Syria? Their proxies in Hizbollah are still causing Israel grief and they want the Golan Heights back...

As for Arafat see my last. Read the book Jillian...I'm not about to print out 50 pages of type...


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## elvis (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> jillian said:
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> > I'll look at the wiki link. But even if that were the case, what other nation is asked to make it's concessions BEFORE negotiations?
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do you mean because the Jews came from Sarah and the Arabs from Hagar?


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

elvis3577 said:


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Look, I will never defend Hamas or Hizbollah, and while they exist, the chances of peace are remote.

I just think if the Israelis got rid of ALL their settlements on the WB and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians have them, then there are no more excuses. At present one faction runs Gaza, the other the WB...

I have no time for Islam or Hamas/Hizbollah, but neither do I for hte Jewish settlers on the WB..


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

elvis3577 said:


> do you mean because the Jews came from Sarah and the Arabs from Hagar?



No, I mean both have lived in the area since Adam...and they seem to hate each other's guts


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## jillian (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> No, those were not concessions before negotiations, that was part of the original deal.
> 
> I think what you are missing the point re Oslo, it doesn't matter whether it was 98 or 100 percent, the Israelis were never going to agree to the deal anyway. It reads like the right of return and East Jerusalem were put in there on purpose because they knew the Pals wold not accept it for those two reasons alone....
> 
> ...



part of the original deal was also the PA removing it's goal of the destruction of Israel from its charter. 

i said MOSTLY bedouin. Either way, they left when the Grand Mufti told them to so the jews could be thrown into the sea.

The Jews were always in Israel. There were just more of them after the diaspora. The name the pals TOOK came from Philistines... 

and the whole "semetic" thing... you KNOW that isn't what the word is used to refer to.

I've always said that the israeli/arab thing is the worst case of sibling rivalry in history.

but again, none of that is here nor there. to make a resolution, the pals have to want one. they don't... or they wouldn't have used their obtaining the gaza as a reason to start lobbing missiles into israel.

to reach a deal, they have to actually stop talking about the history...they just have to make a deal. 

who do you think is more willing to do that? and who do you think will have more unreasonble demands made of them.

it's like i pointed out the other day, when the crusaders took jerusalem, they put a church over the holy of holies... then when the arabs won it back from the crusaders, they put a mosque over it...

it's only the jews who haven't been allowed to exercise dominion over their OWN holy site.

and, to be fair, if a group in mexico were lobbing misiles into california and demanding their land back, they'd be flattened, and no one in the world would say boo.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


> part of the original deal was also the PA removing it's goal of the destruction of Israel from its charter.
> 
> i said MOSTLY bedouin. Either way, they left when the Grand Mufti told them to so the jews could be thrown into the sea.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure the Pals have removed that from their charter..their main problem is they are splintering into little groups.

I know that's where the name came from, just because that is where they got the name from doesn't mean they weren't always there..

I agree with lobbing missiles, but I also believe the IDF shouldn't shoot people who are throwing rocks at them...

I hear you re the holy site, and I don't disagree....but maybe the whole site should be flattened and some sort of museum giving the history of all three religions should be put in its place.

Laters


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## jillian (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> elvis3577 said:
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> > do you mean because the Jews came from Sarah and the Arabs from Hagar?
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you know, interestingly, my son's school has a huge arab population. and he always says that THEY are the most like the jews and asked me why jews and arabs have such problems. that's when i told him it was sibling rivalry.

but here in ny, jews and arabs seem to get along fine. it's the whole "inheritance" thing... goes back to isaac and ishmael.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 3, 2010)

custom-uniforms said:


> OK Sgt.
> I'll take that as a conditional yes vote.
> Not all Muslims or Arabs kill Jews on a daily bases because
> murder is against our common 10 commandments.
> ...



The reason I used Najd as an example is because everyone has heard of it but by another name.

On 13 May, 1948, Najd was occupied by Jewish soldiers from the Negev Brigade as part of Operation Barak.[5] The inhabitants were expelled and fled to Gaza, and the village was then completely destroyed and leveled to the ground. In 1951, the town of Sderot was built over the village lands.

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The indigenous population had a long history in their village.

Under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, in 1596, Najd formed part nahiya (subdistrict) of Gaza under the liwa' (district) of Gaza with a population of 215. It paid taxes on a number of crops, including wheat, barley and fruit, as well as on goats, beehives and vineyards.[6]

Edward Robinson, who travelled through Palestine in 1838, noted that Najd lay south of a wadi, and described how the villagers were winnowing barley by throwing it into the air against the wind with wooden forks.[7]

In the late 19th century, Claude Conder writes that Najd was a small village with a well and a pond.[8]

As the population grew during the Mandate period, the village expanded northwestward. The village population was Muslim, and the children attended school in Simsim, 2 kilometers (1 mi) to the northeast. The villagers worked primarily in agriculture and animal husbandry. Fields of grain and fruit trees surrounded Najd on all sides. The fruit trees were concentrated to the north and northeastern sides, where irrigation water was available from wells.[9]

Cultivated lands in the village in 1944-45 included a total of 10 dunums allocated for citrus and bananas and 11,916 dunums for cereals. An additional 511 dunums were irrigated or used for orchards. The population at this time was 620.[9][10]

The village and its history came to the world's attention from 2002 onwards, as several Qassam-rockets were fired from the Gaza strip, with the aim of hitting Sderot and other Israeli towns, from where the Palestinians had once been expelled.[12]

Paul


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## The Rabbi (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


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You obviously don't get it.  There are always excuses.  If the Palis get the west bank, then they want E.Jerusalem too.  If they get EJ, then they want Jaffa.  If they get Jaffa, then they want Tel Aviv.
You are dealing with people who have been told since infancy that all their problems come from the Jews.  Get rid of the Jews and your problems are over.  Their leadership must maintain this fiction to cover over their own kleptocracy and incompetence.  So there is always another demand over the horizon.  There is no negotiating with people like that.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 3, 2010)

jillian said:


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I run into Arabs very often in business and I never have a problem with them.  In discussions it is amazing how similar the two religions are, sometimes using the same metaphors to describe legal concepts.  Traditionally, like under the Ottomans, the Jews did very well, better than under the Christians in Europe.  It is a darn shame, but something I lay at the feet of the Zionists.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 3, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Dr Grump said:
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Before Israel the indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews live in peace in Palestine. With Israel there has been nothing but death and destruction. Even today they all live together in peace in Palestine.

What is complicated here?


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 3, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> jillian said:
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> > the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.
> ...



Oslo was a mere re-branding of the occupation. It was to outsource the occupation to the puppet PLO. Israel would control the water. They would control who could come and who could leave. They would control imports and exports.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 3, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Rabbi said:
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Except if you want to mention the Hebron massacres in the 1920s.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 3, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Yeah. Why did that happen?

History tells us that the Muslims and Jews lived together in peace in Hebron for hundreds of years. The focus of the attacks were against the "new Jews" the one who came to take over Palestine. Of course some of this hatred spilled over to the indigenous Jews.

Edward Robbin, who went to Hebron three weeks later "with a convoy of refugees returning to their homes to bring the remnants of their possessions to Jerusalem," describes meeting a woman whom we recognize as Imm Mahmoud. "Opposite the Slonim house in front of what had been a hotel, a crowd of Jews had gathered about an Arab woman. To each one that approached they repeated the story of how she had saved twenty-three [sic] people by bringing them into her house. People looked at the thin worn face of the Arab woman with awe.&#8221; The Menorah Journal, XVII, 3 (December 1929), p.304.

http://hebron1929.info/Hebronletter.pdf


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## The Rabbi (Jan 3, 2010)

Says the man who doesnt believe Israel exists.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 3, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Says the man who doesnt believe Israel exists.



Israel has political recognition but has no legal standing.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 3, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Rabbi said:
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Says the man who believes murdering women and children is dandy.


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## eots (Jan 3, 2010)

I say we roll back the hands of time a half century and give the Jews half of Utah as a homeland and let them fight it out with the Mormons...if_ I was king of the world_


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 3, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



You keep pulling stuff out of your hat.


----------



## Dr Grump (Jan 3, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Says the man who believes murdering women and children is dandy.



Both sides are doing that....


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 4, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Good post, Rabbi. Good contribution from jillian also. An undisputed fact is that Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived in Palestine with no inherent animosity toward the others. Many of the peoples of Palestine have descendants dating back hundreds even thousands of years. Sure there have been people who immigrated to Palestine but they came to join the community in peace. People were relatively free to move to Palestine to live in their Holy Land.

Muslims, Christians, and Jews still live together in peace in Palestine. Yes there are a thousand or so Jews living in Palestine by choice. A picture is worth a thousand words. University life and graduation are good albums.

Birzeit University : Palestine

So, what happened?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 4, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Straight up lie. And a misdirection to boot. The Grand pubah of Jerusalem was a NAZI and had every intention of killing Jews anyway he could.

The misdirection is in the fact that the JEWS tried everything they could and still do to avoid conflict. THEY BEGGED the Arabs to stay in Israel and be part of the new nation, the Arabs ordered them out declaring they would drive every JEW in that region into the sea.

Arabs living as citizens of Israel have the EXACT same rights and protections as any JEW. Last Time I checked 13 Arabs were in the Knesset, one of them was the 2nd most powerful member of a non Arab political party.


----------



## jillian (Jan 4, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Straight up lie. And a misdirection to boot. The Grand pubah of Jerusalem was a NAZI and had every intention of killing Jews anyway he could.
> 
> The misdirection is in the fact that the JEWS tried everything they could and still do to avoid conflict. THEY BEGGED the Arabs to stay in Israel and be part of the new nation, the Arabs ordered them out declaring they would drive every JEW in that region into the sea.
> 
> Arabs living as citizens of Israel have the EXACT same rights and protections as any JEW. Last Time I checked 13 Arabs were in the Knesset, one of them was the 2nd most powerful member of a non Arab political party.



see...now they've made me go agree with you on something 100%


----------



## jillian (Jan 4, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Says the man who believes murdering women and children is dandy.
> ...



not the smart ones... everyone has their loons.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 5, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



"Arabs living as citizens of Israel have the EXACT same rights and protections as any JEW."

Then what is the point of having a "Jewish State?"


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 17, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Then what is the point of having a "Jewish State?"



Dummy, the point of having a Jewish state is to provide for the assurance of Jewish self-determination.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Then what is the point of having a "Jewish State?"
> ...



Is there a right to self determination?


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Is there a right to self determination?



Yes, dummy, the UN Charter has established the right to self-determination.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a right to self determination?
> ...



Under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, in 1596, Najd formed part nahiya (subdistrict) of Gaza under the liwa' (district) of Gaza with a population of 215. It paid taxes on a number of crops, including wheat, barley and fruit, as well as on goats, beehives and vineyards.

Edward Robinson, who travelled through Palestine in 1838, noted that Najd lay south of a wadi, and described how the villagers were winnowing barley by throwing it into the air against the wind with wooden forks.

In the late 19th century, Claude Conder writes that Najd was a small village with a well and a pond.

As the population grew during the Mandate period, the village expanded northwestward. The village population was Muslim, and the children attended school in Simsim, 2 kilometers (1 mi) to the northeast. The villagers worked primarily in agriculture and animal husbandry. Fields of grain and fruit trees surrounded Najd on all sides. The fruit trees were concentrated to the north and northeastern sides, where irrigation water was available from wells.

Cultivated lands in the village in 1944-45 included a total of 10 dunums allocated for citrus and bananas and 11,916 dunums for cereals. An additional 511 dunums were irrigated or used for orchards. The population at this time was 620.

So these people have the right to self determination?


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## Shogun (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Then what is the point of having a "Jewish State?"
> ...



Tell it to white southerners circa 1956, dumb ass.  If America treated a favored ethnicity as exclusively as israel does jews your kind would be screaming about inequality for jewish minority groups, ironically.




kinda sucks being on the side of having to rationalize a state-based master race, eh dude?


----------



## elvis (Jan 18, 2010)

hello, shogie.


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

Shogun said:


> kinda sucks being on the side of having to rationalize a state-based master race, eh dude?



You mean, the 55 Muslim countries and 25 Arab countries that, unlike Israel, persecute against the practice of other religions?

Don't be such a dummy.   Israel is the only countryin the Middle East with true freedom of religion.

Jews may not be a master race, but, Muslims are inferior trash.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > kinda sucks being on the side of having to rationalize a state-based master race, eh dude?
> ...



Is that why some of the staunchest supporters of Palestine are Christians and some are even Jews?


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Dummy, I recognize you're mentally impaired, however, as I have instructed you, Israel encompasses 90% of Palestine.  Otherwise, there isno country called Palestine, dumbass.


----------



## Shogun (Jan 18, 2010)

elvis3577 said:


> hello, shogie.



Good afternoon, Elvis!


----------



## Shogun (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > kinda sucks being on the side of having to rationalize a state-based master race, eh dude?
> ...



so.. when have those muslim nations been propped up by WESTERN DEMOCRACIES?  If only klan thought of your jewish excuse for racial purity first, eh?

and, yea.. nothing says freedom of religion like all those christians who get spit on by zionists.


----------



## Shogun (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



YEA!  it's probably impossible to find a pre-48 map of that area called PALESTINE...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



http://pix.halfwit.com/e/n/i/palestine.jpg

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/a4...310db0a90525655600795225/$FILE/palestine1.jpg

http://www.countryseek.com/maps/palestine-map.gif


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## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



Professor Philip Hitti, eminent Arab historian, who represented the Institute of Arab American Affairs before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in 1945...


> The Sunday schools have done a great deal of harm to us, because by smearing the walls of the rooms with maps of Palestine they are associating it in the mind of the average American--and I may say perhaps the Englishman, too--with the Jews. Sir, there is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.



D'oh.


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## Shogun (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



lets see you cite that last quote without linking to the jewish virtual library or some other source saturated with hebrew bias.


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## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I'm not aware of Philip Hitti being saturated with "Hebrew bias", you moron.  Allah Akbar. LOL


----------



## Shogun (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



I'm sure there are a great many things that you are not aware of, ya ironically hateful jew.  Now, did you want to post a source for that quote so i can laugh at you some more or would you rather have the mossad call in an air strike on my neighborhood?


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Why don't you refute Hitti?  Let's see how great Allah really is?  LOL


----------



## al Haq (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Professor Philip Hitti, eminent Arab historian, who represented the Institute of Arab American Affairs before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in 1945...
> 
> 
> > The Sunday schools have done a great deal of harm to us, because by smearing the walls of the rooms with maps of Palestine they are associating it in the mind of the average American--and I may say perhaps the Englishman, too--with the Jews. Sir, there is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.



Um....









Marc39 said:


> D'oh.



I'll say.


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

al Haq said:


> I'll say.



I read the book.  Palestine was part of Greater Syria.


----------



## al Haq (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > I'll say.
> ...



You didn't read the book; you didn't even know of its existence before I posted a pic of it.  

It should be a lesson to you:  do a little more research yourself before posting bogus crap off dubious  websites that is easily shown to be false.  But I hope you keep doing it, because it is my pleasure to expose this sort of thing.

To recap:  You claimed that Hitti said "*there is no such thing as Palestine in history*" - yet here we have his book about that very subject, by name: the *history* of Syria *including Palestine*.   

Your invented quote is bogus, just like your invented Congressional resolution - the only mention of it tracks right back to Zionist disinfo factories.


----------



## GHook93 (Jan 18, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Interesting. What would be the solution for a town like Najd?



First solution would be ignoring and excluding retarded rednecks, like you, from the discussion!


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

al Haq said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > al Haq said:
> ...



I have read Hitti and Hourari, dummy.  Palestine was viewed as part of Greater Syria by Arabs for most of history.  

You prove that Allah is a loser.


----------



## GHook93 (Jan 18, 2010)

Interesting idea. Probably would be tough to implement, but so has everything else. I have thought about a shared capital, but in the end I think that would be a failure. Since the inevitable questions and problems of:
(1) Jurisdiction
(2) Biased and preceived bias of each other's government in dealing with their wrong-doers.
(3) How would a joint police force work.
(4) Who collects tax dollars
(5) Who admires services paid for by those tax dollars.
(6) When a Palestinian and an Israeli are in a disbute, who settles the dispute? The Israeli would be upset if it was the Palestinians and the Palestinians would be upset if it was an Israeli.
(7) What happens with criminal prosecution
(8) Who investigates political corruptness

The list goes on and on!


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## al Haq (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



Palestine was certainly administered as part of Greater Syria during the Ottoman Empire.

But that's not what I posted about, and you know it.

You claimed that Hitti said "*there is no such thing as Palestine in history*."  

You are now attempting to deflect and dissemble from the point: your supposed quote is bogus.  Hitti didn't say that, and he even titled his book as the history of Syria including Lebanon and *Palestine*.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 18, 2010)

jillian said:


> Also, in terms of history, it just seems absurd to me in a way. Even if the jews really were the bad guys (which they weren't and aren't) every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.... except the Pals who are used by the arabs to be the thorn in their people's sides and distract from their own internal problems.



I don't think that is accurate - not every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.  Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries.  For the Palestinians - there is land for them, it's simply occupied by a foreign power.  And, the Palestinians don't just distract the Arab countries from their own internal problems - they distract Israel from it's internal political problems.


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

al Haq said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > al Haq said:
> ...



I'm not deflecting anything, dummy.  You aredeflecting.  Hitti has stated there has never been a Palestine and he did so in 1946, not during the Ottoman Empire.

Eminent historian Bernard Lewis backs up Hitti...


> For Arabs, too, the term Palestine was unacceptable, though for other reasons. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant but not abhorrent in the same way as it was to Jews. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole.  Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries; it was a group of provincial subdivisions, by no means always the same, within a larger entity.  For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point.



Suck it up, Muhammadan.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



They claim that the "British created the Palestinian identity ." This is easily belied by such evidence as the existence of a modem Arabic-language newspaper named Filastin, which addressed its readers as Palestinians in 1911, six years before the Balfour Declaration and well before the commencement of the British Mandate.

Chapter 2: Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem


----------



## al Haq (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



Then why did he title his book "The History of Syria including Lebanon and Palestine" instead of "The History of Syria including Lebanon and the Place that Didn't Exist"?

Your argument makes no sense, yet you persist.  You were naive enough to repeat a lie without checking, and you got caught.  



Marc39 said:


> Eminent historian Bernard Lewis backs up Hitti...
> 
> 
> > For Arabs, too, the term Palestine was unacceptable, though for other reasons. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant but not abhorrent in the same way as it was to Jews. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole.  Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries; it was a group of provincial subdivisions, by no means always the same, within a larger entity.  For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point.



Bernard Lewis is hardly an objective historian.  He is the darling of of the Zionist narrative, and has devoted his entire career to attempting to discredit Arabs and Islam.  



Marc39 said:


> Suck it up, Muhammadan.



Please continue to exhibit the repugnant behavior that your ideology encourages, in case anyone does not yet realize that bigotry is the cornerstone of Zionism.


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

al Haq said:


> Bernard Lewis is hardly an objective historian.  He is the darling of of the Zionist narrative, and has devoted his entire career to attempting to discredit Arabs and Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Trying to disparage Bernard Lewis, arguably, the most eminent Middle Eastern historian and Islamic scholar ever, is a losing tactic for you.  

Are these people who have praised Bernard Lewis and his books, including Arabs, part of some Zionist conspiracy?  I don't think so...



> "Replete with the exceptional historical insight that one has come to expect from the world's foremost Islamic scholar." --Karen Elliott House, Wall Street Journal
> 
> "Lewis's scholarship is prodigious....He avoids dogmatic positions himself and sees dogma as something to be analyzed. It is this sense of nuance, of historical setting, of honesty to texts, that informs the essays in Islam and the West."--The New York Review of Books
> 
> ...


----------



## Coyote (Jan 18, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



That is not entirely true, and to use your words a "misdirection to boot".

According to Benny Morris, the Palestinians who fled in 1947 left mostly due to _Israeli military attacks,  fear of impending attacks; and deliberate expulsions. While there was no centralized policy - expulsions were ordered by the Israeli high command as needed_. 

Morris has written several books based on information from documents in government and university archives that contained a great deal of information from that period that had never been made public.

In his book:  _The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949_ Morris documents atrocities by the Israelis, including cases of rape and torture. Out of 228 empty Palestinian villages, the 4inhabitants were expelled by the IDF from 41 and in another 90, they fled due to attacks on neighboring villages.  Only in six could he confirm that they left under orders from Arab authorities.  For the remaining 46, he could not find a reason for why they were abandoned.

Benny Morris himself is an interesting figure and is hardly a Palestinian sympathizer.  He clearly points out culpability for the refugee problem in both Israel's actions and those of the Arabs and defies the white-washed version of Israel's history.  He is a professor of Middle East history in Ben-Gurion University, and he considers himself a Zionist.  After publishing his first book he was denounced as an anti-Semite and compared with Holocaust deniers, a well worn tactic against those that depart from the accepted history of Israel.



> He writes that the contents of the new documents substantially increase both Israeli and Palestinian responsibility for the refugee problem, revealing more expulsions and atrocities on the Israeli side, and more orders from Arab officials to the Palestinians to leave their villages, or at least to send their women and children away


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## al Haq (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Trying to disparage Bernard Lewis, arguably, the most eminent Middle Eastern historian and Islamic scholar ever, is a losing tactic for you.
> 
> Are these people who have praised Bernard Lewis and his books, including Arabs, part of some Zionist conspiracy?  I don't think so...
> 
> ...



You dont have to be part of a so-called conspiracy to mistake propaganda for scholarship, although plenty of the names on your list are well-known members of the Zio cheerleading squad.

Fouad Ajami is your example of "Arabs" praising Bernard Lewis?  LOL. 

First of all, although he was born in Lebanon, Fouad Ajami is of Iranian heritage, not Arab.  (That other Muslim-sounding name on your list is an Iranian Kurd.)

Anyway -- at one time, Ajami was a supporter of Palestinian rights, but he switched over to become a shameless tool for the neocon warmongers, extolled by the likes of Daniel Pipes, Norman Podhoretz, and Paul Wolfowitz. 

In fact, Ajami works for Pipes at Middle East Forum -- a neo-con think tank dedicated to promoting Israeli right wing ideology and Islamophobia, pushing for the U.S. to spend its blood and treasure attacking any Muslim country that might potentially rival Israels hegemony in the Middle East, and harassing American university professors who have the temerity to conduct Middle East Studies classes without a heavily pro-Israel bias.

And its no surprise that Ajami would be lauding Bernard Lewis - thats his partner over at ASMEA (the Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa, yet another neo-con think tank.)


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

al Haq said:


> ... Israel&#8217;s hegemony in the Middle East...



Dummy, most people in the Middle East fear Iran's hegemony.  Israel is not even on the map.

Israel is just 8,000 square miles in size, dummy, about the size of Vermont, one of the smallest states in the United States.  The Arab and Muslim shitholes in the Middle East encompass 9,000,000 square miles.

IRan is 640,000 square miles.

Who, again, is a hegemony, dummy?


----------



## Dr Grump (Jan 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Dummy, Lebanese view themselves, for the most part as Arab.
> .



However an Iranian is Persian, not an arab. It's akin to calling someone of Japanese heritage, French.....


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 18, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Dummy, Lebanese view themselves, for the most part as Arab.
> ...



Duh.


----------



## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2010)

al Haq said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > al Haq said:
> ...



Here is the the history of Palestine:

2200BC - Canaanites Period - Abraham in Land of Canaan. Egypt conquers and enslaves the Jewish People.

1200-1000 BC - Israelites take the scene after the exodus from Egypt.
During the conquest of Israel. Many different tribes in Israel

1000 - 586 BC: Sole Jewish Rule: in Land of Israel and Judah

722-586 BC: Assyrian Rule: Assyrians conquer Israel; Most Jews flee to the other Jewish Kingdom of Judah

586 - 539 BC: Babylonian Rule: Babylonians Conquer the 2nd Jewish kingdom (Judah) - Destroy the 1st temple and expel the Jews

539 - 333 BC: Persian Rule, with nearly automous Jewish soverignty - Cyrus the Great conquered the Babylonians and let the Jews return to Israel and Judah. The 2nd temple was build and the Jews were free to practice their religion. Jews were self-rule as a satrapie of Persia. Governed themselves but paid taxes to the state.

333-165 BC: Greek Rule - Alexander the Great conquered Israel, but the Israelites maintain semi self-rule for a time. 

165-63 BC: Jewish Golden Era - The Maccabean Revolt freed the Jews. 

63 BC - 333 AD: Roman Era:
This is the most critical time in the history of Israel and the for the Jews. The events in this era lead to the excile of the Jews, mainly throughout Europe, Russia and the Middle East (hence the reason the pre-1900 why there were so many Jews are in Europe and Russia) and the mass extermination of Jews. It has been estimated that 2-2.5 million Jews were killed during this time. I saw a special on the history channel a while back that if the Roman-Jewish wars never happened that there could have been 200-300 million Jews in the world today. 

- 63 BC - 4 AD: Herod the Great Rule (Jewish King) - The Jews ruled Israel (Judea) as as a a Roman Client King. They Jews had semi-automny.
- 6 AD - 66 A: After Herod's death the Romans tightened their rule by establishing a Roman Procurator (Roman overlord) - who collected taxes.
- 66 AD The First Great Jewish Revolt! The Jews revolted against the Procurator placing a Pagan Statute on top of the 2nd Great Temple. It was disastrous for the Jews. 600,000-1,300,00 were killed. The first Jewish Dispora throughout the Middle East, Europe and Russia occurred. The 2nd Temple was destroyed. The Jews official lost their State. 
- 70 AD - 132 AD: The Jews slowly came back to Israel
- 132 AD: The 2nd Jewish Revolt started and was successful in expelling the Romans
*132 - 135 AD: Jewish Independent Israel*
135 AD: Roman took their revenge and brutally destroyed the revolt. 580K Jews were killed. The remaining ones were further exciled throughout Europe, M.E. and Russia. More salt on the wounds the *Romans changed name of Israel/Judea to Palestina (later *Palestine) after the Israelite's long extinct enemy the Philistines.

135-330 Rome Rule - Jews were completely exciled

330 AD - 614 AD: Byzantine Rule:
Jews were allowed to return and returned in numbers. There were occassional revolts, but the numbers increased.

614 - 619 AD: Jewish Rule. After an alliance with the Persians the Jews and Persians took Palestina. The Jewish had independent rule. Last time before the rebirth

619 - 625 AD: Persian Rule - Persian took Palestina as a colony, but Jews remained

625 - 638 AD: Byzantine Rule - The Jews feeling betrayed by the Persian signed an alliance with the Byzantines in exchange for amnesty. After the Jews help the Byzantines expell the Persians, the Byzantines attacked the Jews killing many and exciling even more to Europe, Russian and the M.E.

638 - 1099 AD: Muslim Rule - Arab Crusades - The newly found Islamic religion went on a quest to rule the world. Look at all the places that the Arab Crusades hit (except Spain - because of the inquisition) and you will see a predominate Muslim country. However, the Jews were not exciled. At times they were presecuted, but they were able to remain and set up Jewish villages and communities. So 1/2 millenium after the Roman's changed the name from Israel to Palestine, the Arabs finally arrived on the scene.

1099 - 1187 AD: Christian European Rule - The first crusade lead to the killing of nearly every Muslim, Jew and even Christian in Jerusalem. Mass-killings of Jews throughout Palestine and evern Europe.

1187 - 1244 AD: Muslim Rule - Saladin conquered Jerusalem in 1187 and the rest Palestina by 1244
1244 - 1517 AD: Muslim Rule:



> The Mamluks destroyed all towns on the flat coastal plains in order to rid the land of the Crusader presence and make sure it never returned. The main exceptions were Jaffa, Gaza, Lydda and Ramle. As a result of this, most trade with the west was curtailed. Due to the many earthquakes, the religious extremism and the black plague that hit during this era, the population dwindled to around 200,000 souls. It is during this period that the land began to have an indigenous Levantine Muslim majority and even in the traditional Jewish stronghold of Eastern Galilee, a new Jewish-Muslim culture began to develop


.

1517-1831 AD: Turkish Rule

In 1516 the Ottoman Turks occupied Palestine. The country became part of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople appointed local governors. Public works, including the city walls, were rebuilt in Jerusalem by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1537. An area around Tiberias was given to Don Joseph HaNasi for a Jewish enclave. Following the expulsions from Spain, the Jewish population of Palestine rose to around 25% (includes non-Ottoman citizens, excludes Bedouin) and regained its former stronghold of Eastern Galilee. That ended in 1660 when they were massacred at Safed and Jerusalem. During the reign of Dahar al Omar, Pasha of the Galilee, Jews from Ukraine began to resettle Tiberias.
Quote:
Jewish immigration to Palestine, particularly to the "four sacred cities" (Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron) which already had significant Jewish communities, increased particularly towards the end of Ottoman rule

1831-1841: Egyptian Rule.
Egypt conquered Palestine/Israel from thge Turks for a period of 10 years. Yet they didn't create a separate Palestinian state and there were no calls to create a separate Palestinian state!

1841-1917: Ottoman Rule - The Turks reconquered the lands from the Egyptians. Large amount of Jewish immigration towards the larger part of rule, due to mass discrimination of Jews in Europe.

1917 - 1948: British Rule:
The British Manddate promised the lands to both the Palestinian Arab and Jews in a parition plan. During this time the lightly populated lands were flooded with Arab migrants who were not restricted in any ways during the White Paper days. 

1948 - Present: Jewish Rule
The Parition Plan was accepted by the Jews, but not the Arabs and War broke out in 1948-1949. With Egypt ruling over Gaza and Jordon ruling over West Bank. Although both countries had the power to grant the Palestinians an independent state, they never did. Then in the '67 after the six day war Israel acquired Gaza and the West Bank.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...-the-jewish-presence-in-israel-palestine.html


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## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2010)

Coyote said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Also, in terms of history, it just seems absurd to me in a way. Even if the jews really were the bad guys (which they weren't and aren't) every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.... except the Pals who are used by the arabs to be the thorn in their people's sides and distract from their own internal problems.
> ...



Wow that is a fallacy, most displaced people never return to the home land in great numbers!


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## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2010)

eots said:


> I say we roll back the hands of time a half century and give the Jews half of Utah as a homeland and let them fight it out with the Mormons...if_ I was king of the world_



If you were king of the world we would be fucked!

And if the Jews were in Utah, you would be bitching about them their and coming up with some grand conspiracy of how they are trying to take over the world.


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## jillian (Jan 19, 2010)

Coyote said:


> I don't think that is accurate - not every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.  Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries.  For the Palestinians - there is land for them, it's simply occupied by a foreign power.  And, the Palestinians don't just distract the Arab countries from their own internal problems - they distract Israel from it's internal political problems.



Really? Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle? My family left land in Belarus because of pogroms..... and the other half of my grandparents left because the soviet union was worse for jews than the czar ever was.

what do you think would happen if a bunch of us stood on the border of Belarus, lobbing missiles and demanding our land back?

I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't be very tolerant. And I'm pretty sure the U.N. would tell us to piss off.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 19, 2010)

jillian said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that is accurate - not every displaced population in history has gone elsewhere.  Many are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), many remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a relatively small number are taken in by foreign countries.  For the Palestinians - there is land for them, it's simply occupied by a foreign power.  And, the Palestinians don't just distract the Arab countries from their own internal problems - they distract Israel from it's internal political problems.
> ...



I don't think those situations are comparable - you and your family are not stateless refugees and Belarus is not considered "occupied" territory. 

You have people who fled fighting in Bosnia for example, who have subsequently returned when stability was achieved.  Or Ugandan refugees returning home.  Burundian refugees return home from Tanzania finally, after fleeing a 1972 conflict.

Clearly, they do return back when stability is achieved, not necessarily through conquest on the battlefield.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 19, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Better bone up on your fallacies.

Jillian said:   *every *displaced population in history has gone elsewhere

I said:  *Many *are returned to their home countries (what was considered the preferable solution by the UN), *many *remain in refugee camps in foreign countries that will not grant them citizenship, a *relatively small number* are taken in by foreign countries.

Where's the fallacy?


----------



## Dr Grump (Jan 19, 2010)

jillian said:


> Really? Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle? My family left land in Belarus because of pogroms..... and the other half of my grandparents left because the soviet union was worse for jews than the czar ever was.
> 
> what do you think would happen if a bunch of us stood on the border of Belarus, lobbing missiles and demanding our land back?
> 
> I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't be very tolerant. And I'm pretty sure the U.N. would tell us to piss off.



Were your ancestors pushed or did they leave of their own accord? A lot of Pals had lived their since day one, and were moved by force. It's not as if this happened 500 years ago, or that the Pals were interlopers who had been sitting there 50 years then were ousted. 

You also have to remember it is a small portion of Pals who are doing the lobbing of missiles. Israel has the right to hunt them down and do what they do. They don't have the right to fire indiscriminately into houses or people throwing rocks.


----------



## jillian (Jan 19, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Were your ancestors pushed or did they leave of their own accord? A lot of Pals had lived their since day one, and were moved by force. It's not as if this happened 500 years ago, or that the Pals were interlopers who had been sitting there 50 years then were ousted.
> 
> You also have to remember it is a small portion of Pals who are doing the lobbing of missiles. Israel has the right to hunt them down and do what they do. They don't have the right to fire indiscriminately into houses or people throwing rocks.



well, do you call pogroms pushing? was my great grandfather being murdered while driving around on his rounds pushing? I figure having your windows broken every sunday night while people threw stones at the house a pretty good push. don't you? were they given eviction papers? no. but neither were the pals.

Most pals were not moved by force. Most were moved voluntarily because of complying with the grand mufti's request.

it may be a small portion of pals who are doing the actual firing of missiles, but the rest are being ill used as human shields. that isn't israel's fault. and no other country would be asked to tolerate it.

when WWII was fought, entire cities were flattened because it was strategically necessary. No one said "boo". And from where I sit, people only say "boo" now for one reason.

ultimately, it does come down to what would be done if a bunch of terrorists were lobbing missiles into texas or cali from mexico.

like i said... i'm pretty sure the response would be quick and pretty complete... even if the entire city of Tiajuana went buh bye.

I'm pretty sure Israel wasn't ever supposed to survive. The arabs were given all of the high ground, defensible positions and fortresses. They were armed by the soviets while the US and britain wouldn't give arms to the Jews.

The problems don't come from pals being displaced. The problems come from jews not dying like they were supposed to.


----------



## José (Jan 19, 2010)

> Originally posted by *jillian*
> Really? Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle? My family left land in Belarus because of pogroms..... and the other half of my grandparents left because the soviet union was worse for jews than the czar ever was.
> 
> what do you think would happen if a bunch of us stood on the border of Belarus, lobbing missiles and demanding our land back?
> ...



During the American War of Aggression against Mexico, Californios put up a heroic armed resistance against thousands of Anglo land grabbers cowardly helped by the US Army:

Small example:

*1846 - Battle of Dominguez Rancho, October 9. José Antonio Carrillo leads Californio forces in victory against 350 US Marines and sailors near Los Angeles.*

etc, etc, etc...

After the war, Californios took refuge in Mexico but were soon allowed to return to California.

Here you are, _Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestin_e. 

An irrefutable example of *"Who's been returned to their original land without winning it back in battle?"*


----------



## José (Jan 19, 2010)

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......


----------



## José (Jan 19, 2010)

Come on, _Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine_.

Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.

Oh wait... they were all absorbed by the US after the war and today have the same rights as any other american citizen.

Maybe this is the difference between a *REAL* liberal democracy like America and a Jewish Racial Dictatorship like Israel?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 19, 2010)

jillian said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Were your ancestors pushed or did they leave of their own accord? A lot of Pals had lived their since day one, and were moved by force. It's not as if this happened 500 years ago, or that the Pals were interlopers who had been sitting there 50 years then were ousted.
> ...



I would call pogroms pushing.



> Most pals were not moved by force. Most were moved voluntarily because of complying with the grand mufti's request.



Not true.  Many fled because their villages were attacked, neighboring villages were attacked or the IDF evicted them.  Some fled because they were told to by the local Arab authorities but not most.  So, I would say they were moved by force.



> it may be a small portion of pals who are doing the actual firing of missiles, but the rest are being ill used as human shields. that isn't israel's fault. and no other country would be asked to tolerate it.



The rest of them are stuck there and it's debatable how much they are deliberately being used as human sheilds - which they are (something the Israeli's also did with them) or whether the density of urban areas makes it impossible to avoid it.

There has also been provocation by Israel and a doctrine of collective punishment for the actions of a few-  Israel isn't a total innocent in this.



> when WWII was fought, entire cities were flattened because it was strategically necessary. No one said "boo". And from where I sit, people only say "boo" now for one reason.



For one reason?  Oh come on - you aren't pulling the anti-semitism card?  Don't you think there is a considerable difference between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and WW2????



> ultimately, it does come down to what would be done if a bunch of terrorists were lobbing missiles into texas or cali from mexico.



There is no similarity of history between Mexico/US to make that kind of comparison.



> like i said... i'm pretty sure the response would be quick and pretty complete... even if the entire city of Tiajuana went buh bye.



Again - apples and oranges.



> I'm pretty sure Israel wasn't ever supposed to survive. The arabs were given all of the high ground, defensible positions and fortresses. They were armed by the soviets while the US and britain wouldn't give arms to the Jews.
> 
> The problems don't come from pals being displaced. The problems come from jews not dying like they were supposed to.



Actually, some would argue that the Israeli's problem is that the Palestinians aren't dying like they are supposed to...


----------



## Coyote (Jan 19, 2010)

José;1920648 said:
			
		

> Come on, _Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine_.
> 
> Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dr Grump (Jan 19, 2010)

José;1920648 said:
			
		

> Come on, _Mrs. Democracy in America and Jewish Racism in Palestine_.
> 
> Show us all those Chicano refugee camps along the US-Mexican border.
> 
> ...



If you're gonna join the debate, bring something of substance. Ranting is not substance...


----------



## elvis (Jan 19, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> José;1920648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He lost one of his stars.  did you notice?


----------



## al Haq (Jan 19, 2010)

Another example of the mentality of some of our resident Zionists, this time from GHook93:



> Israel / Palestine...  	01-19-2010 01:37 PM 	 GHook93  	*Sand N#gger!*



The ability to launch sweeping accusations of "anti-semitism" against anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology (such as the one proclaimed in his signature) while simultaneously exhibiting the most extreme bigotry against people who are without question Semites - this is a trademark of the Zionist psychosis.


----------



## al Haq (Jan 19, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > ... Israels hegemony in the Middle East...
> ...



You need to get a better dictionary.  Hegemony has nothing to do with size; it's all about power. 

Israel is recognized around the world as The _Only_ Superpower in the Middle East, equipped with the most technologically advanced military weapons that American tax money can buy.  It's bristling with an arsenal of nukes, and perennially shielded from international sanctions for its appalling behavior by its BFF, the U.S. government.

The Israeli government is terrified of the possibility that any other country in the region might be able to challenge its singular, overwhelming advantage -- because then Israel might not be able to bully its neighbors around and appropriate their territory any more, but instead have to learn to get along with them.  A frightening idea, indeed.


----------



## José (Jan 20, 2010)

al Haq said:


> Another example of the mentality of some of our resident Zionists, this time from GHook93:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL

Welcome to the wonderful world of Ghook's comments, Haq. If I got a dollar for everytime he called me a "fucking ****" I'd be a millionaire.

Ghook needed a strong father figure in his younger years to straighten him out. A strict daddy who wouldn't be afraid to beat the crap outta him:

*"Little Hook, I'm gonna make a decent Jew out of you even if I have to cut off more than your foreskin to do it."*


----------



## José (Jan 20, 2010)

Coyote said:


> José;1920648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've read enough of your posts to realize your cursory knowledge of politics prevents you from understanding the difference between a democracy like the US and an ethnocracy like Israel.

Probably had never heard the term "ethnocracy" before in your whole life just like all the other political science illiterates of this Board.


----------



## José (Jan 20, 2010)

*DEDICATED TO JILLIAN AND COY0TE*​
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDS-CHUEWlI]YouTube - Dumb Girl - Run-D.M.C.[/ame]

*"Dumb Girl"*​
DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[Run]
I seen you jockin J.C. cause he got a Mercedes
and you know about his ladies, and all his babies
You just wanna ride, and get inside
and run around town, like Bonnie'n'Clyde
But see the moves you're makin, the route you're takin
will lead to heartbreakin and I'm not mistaken
You like his money, you'll be his honey
Get the truth - no excuse - you're a great big dummy!
DUMB GIRL.. DUMB GIRL!

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[D.M.C.]
I wish I knew, why a girl like you
wants to do all the things that you do
I know you want a man, but you should understand
that J.C. ain't D, you shouldn't be his fan
You're not this fine, you're out of your mind
And I wrote this rhyme just for your kind
Don't be misled, remember what I said
The rhymes of rappers surely knock some sense in your head
DUMB GIRL.. DUMB GIRL!

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[Run]
(NOW..) Now you're the flyest girl, in the whole school
but they don't call you fly - they call you fool
Because you don't go to class, you will not pass
You like to go but you should slow because you're goin too fast
And I can tell that you're dumb when you walk in the place
Walkin round with your thumb cold stuck in your face
Always sinnin never winnin cause you're last in the race
You get high and tell a lie and think that makes you the ace
DUMB GIRL.. (stupid!) THE GIRL IS..

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[Run]
Now you're a stupid sex fiend, with no will power (POWER)
Hit four guys in the bathroom at your last baby shower

[D.M.C.]
All the guys call you fast (FAST) but I call you slow (SLOW)
Always sniffin or givin (GIVIN) somebody a blow (BLOW)
Givin every guy a try (TRY) at the wink of an eye (EYE)
There's somethin that you're missin, that money can't buy (BUY)
When it comes to love, you're even hated by Cupid (CUPID)
You're (silly) dilly (dumb) and you're JUST PLAIN STUPID!
DUMB GIRL.. (stupid!) DUMB GIRL!

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

.. the girl is ..

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[D.M.C.]
I hope you to listen to the words, that I speak
I'm not playin, what I'm sayin, can never be weak
You should use your brain, but you don't have one
And when it comes to sense you don't have none
YO YO you should know where I'm comin from
But you're just dumb (diddy) dumb (diddy diddy) DUMB DUMB!

[D] DUMB GIRL!

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[R] Dumb with a capital D!

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[D] DUMB GIRL!

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

[R] Stupid as can be, BREAKDOWN!

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

.. the girl is ..

DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB

DUMB GIRL! DUMB GIRL!
.. the girl is dumb!


----------



## GHook93 (Jan 20, 2010)

al Haq said:


> Israel is recognized around the world as The _Only_ Superpower in the Middle East, equipped with the most technologically advanced military weapons that American tax money can buy.


True they have the best airforce and navy in the middle east. They also have a well trained, well equiped and battle tested ground forces. HOWEVER, Egypt is catching up, Israel pure tiny size puts it at an enormous disadvantage to every other country in the Middle East besides Lebanon. Israel has a much smaller population than most of the Middle East countries. 

See what you want to do is put them in a position of utlimate power that they are not at, so you can equate them to the almighty aggressor. 

Typical tactic of a man (or women) with a disingenious agenda.



al Haq said:


> It's bristling with an arsenal of nukes, and perennially shielded from international sanctions for its appalling behavior by its BFF, the U.S. government.


She has been attacked a bunch of times and never used them. She never provides them to terrorist. 



al Haq said:


> The Israeli government is terrified of the possibility that any other country in the region might be able to challenge its singular, overwhelming advantage -- because then Israel might not be able to bully its neighbors around and appropriate their territory any more, but instead have to learn to get along with them.  A frightening idea, indeed.


Bully its neighbors around! LOL, 
In '48 she was attacked by all her neighbors, who stated they were going to finish Hitler's job. 
In '53 Egypt cut of the Suez Canal which was an act of war. Only time in her history she had actual foreign army help
In '67 all the Arab armies positioned at the Israeli border and were planning to attack! Israel wasn't going to wait for her annihilation! Mounting at the border preparing the troops to attack is an act of war
In '73 the cowardly Arab armies attacked on Judaism holiest day! You say it was just Egypt and Syria? Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Yemen and Lebanon all committed troops under the Syrian and Egyptian command for the war. This was an unilateral invasion.
In the '80s the Palestinians and Hezbollah terrorist were committing daily cross-border attackes on Israel. Israel has NO choice put to go in to stop the attacks. 
Before the first intifada, the PLO was offered firs 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, the offer was sweetened to 98% of the West Bank, 100% of Gaza and EAST JERUSALEM. Arafat turned it down and stated a terrorist war. Of course a hypocrite like you would say Israel can't respond to terrorism, but Israel had more than a right to respond. 
In '03 Hezbollah committed a cross-border attack and captured 2 soldiers and killed a few more. You say one attack, how can that justify an invasion that killed so many? Because Israelis know that if you allow one attack by Hezbollah to go unchecked, then there will be 100s more to follow. A cross-border attack sanctioned by the government of Lebanon (let's be honest Hezbollah is the Lebanese government) is an act of war that allows for a response.
In '09 the Gaza war. After over a year of daily dozen upon dozen missile attacks, Israel finally justifiably attacks. The lose of life was tradegic, but the attack was necessary and justified!


----------



## Coyote (Jan 20, 2010)

José;1922759 said:
			
		

> *DEDICATED TO JILLIAN AND COY0TE*
> 
> *"Dumb Girl"*​
> DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...DUMB...DUMB... DUMB... DUMB



Can't you even pick a decent song to trash me with?

Go shave, you aren't fit for public viewing.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mErM8jPrIgg]YouTube - A Hairy Ass by Sean Morey[/ame]


----------



## Coyote (Jan 20, 2010)

José;1922753 said:
			
		

> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > José;1920648 said:
> ...



Clearly, your reading comprehension skills are a bit sub par.



> Probably had never heard the term "ethnocracy" before in your whole life just like all the other political science illiterates of this Board.



You didn't use the term "ethnocracy".  You used "Jewish Racial Dictatorship".  Do you know what that means?


----------



## José (Jan 20, 2010)

Coyote said:


> José;1922753 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly the same thing!!

Racial dictatorship is ethnocracy for dummies and ethnocracy is racial dictatorship for political scientists.

You can easily establish an almost perfect parallel between Israel and other racial dictatorships like South Africa for example:

There is no significant difference between:

*A black south african prevented from leaving his "black republic" (Transkei, Ciskei, etc...) by the South African government in 1975.*

AND

*A palestinian arab prevented from leaving Gaza or the West Bank by the Israeli government in 2010.*

Most blacks were denied south african citizenship despite the fact their families had lived in SA for generations.

Most palestinian arabs are treated as foreigners and prevented from entering Western Palestine by Israel despite the fact their families lived there for generations.

South Africa always had token black citizens to dispel the accusations of segregation.

Israel idem.

etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

SA under apartheid and Israel qualify as *ethnocratic states* = *racial dictatorships* perfectly.

The real problem here is not my use of the expression "jewish racial dictatorship".

The problem is that most westerners like you are bombarded since childhood by the pro israeli propaganda machine that depicts South Africa as an oppressive dictatorship based on race in stark contrast with Israel "a beacon of democracy in the ME" or at lest a "more benign" type of ethnocratic state.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 20, 2010)

José;1925181 said:
			
		

> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > José;1922753 said:
> ...



Not really...that's gross oversimplification...

Ethnocracy is a form of government where a particular ethnic group holds a disproportionate number of political posts and uses that influence to advance their own group's interests to the exclusion of other ethnic minorities.  Typically those minorities may face persicution, or be discrimminated against through denial of equal citizenship, schooling, or the ability to live or work freely throughout the country.

Jewish Racial Dictatorship....a dictatorship is an autocratic form of government in which the government is ruled by an individual or small group of individuals.  It can also refer to "_an autocratic form of absolute rule by leadership unrestricted by law, constitutions, or other social and political factors within the state_"  

Not the same.



> You can easily establish an almost perfect parallel between Israel and other racial dictatorships like South Africa for example:
> 
> There is no significant difference between:
> 
> ...



If you had actually read my posts...you would know that in the above, you are preaching to the choir.  I see strong parallels to a de facto apartheid in Israel.



> Israel idem.
> 
> etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...
> 
> ...



No...the real problem is that Israel is not a dictatorship.  Key missing concept: autocratic....as well as an absence of a leadership "unrestricted by law, constitutions, or other social and political factors within the state"

Israel has a functioning democratic system of government, independent courts and a pretty powerful free press.  A free press, I might add that is more critical of it's own then our "free press" is of Israel.



> The problem is that most westerners like you are bombarded since childhood by the pro israeli propaganda machine that depicts South Africa as an oppressive dictatorship based on race in stark contrast with Israel "a beacon of democracy in the ME" or at lest a "more benign" type of ethnocratic state.



The problem is....Jose....you don't know a damn thing about me because you clearly have not read anything I have written


----------



## José (Jan 20, 2010)

Coyote said:


> José;1925181 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From your own definition:

*DICTATORSHIP*: form of government in which the government is ruled by an *individual or small group of individuals* through the supression of the political rights of the whole population regardless of ethnic affiliation.

*ETHNOCRACY = RACIAL DICTATORSHIP*: form of government in which the government is ruled by the *dominant ethnic group* through the supression of other ethnic groups' political rights.

Can you see the similarity between the two definitions?

In a "traditional" dictatorship you have a "*small group of individuals*" monopolizing political power whereas in a ethnocracy=racial dictatorship you have an entire *dominant ethnic group* doing the same thing.

*Dictatorship* = an individual or small group *DICTATES* non-democratic laws and political decisions to the whole population.

*Ethnocracy = Racial dictatorship* = a dominant ethnic group *DICTATES* non-democratic laws and political decisions to the subordinated ethnic groups.

Both political systems/forms of government are intrinsically authoritarian, dictatorial.


----------



## José (Jan 20, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Coyote*
> Israel has a functioning democratic system of government, independent courts and a pretty powerful free press. A free press,
> 
> I might add that is more critical of it's own then our "free press" is of Israel.



Let's briefly compare South Africa and Israel:

South Africa: periodic elections restricted to South African citizens (whites and token blacks). 

*Millions of black south africans excluded from the electoral process on the grounds they were citizens of surrounding african "nations" (Transkei, Ciskei, Kwazulu, etc).*

Israel: periodic elections restricted to Israeli citizens (jews and token palestinian arabs). 

*Millions of palestinian arabs excluded from the electoral process on the grounds they are/should become citizens of surrounding arab territories (West Bank, Gaza, etc).
*
Different times... Different places... 

Exactly the same political scenario. Exactly the same political structures.

Would Coyote have the guts to state outloud that South Africa under Apartheid "*had a functioning democratic system of government*"?

Would Coyote have the guts to say America had "*a functioning democratic system of government*" if it excluded millions of black, hispanic americans from the electoral process?

Most likely not. Because even in the unconscious collective of many Israel's critics like Coyote South Africa under Apartheid is portrayed as a malignant, oppressive racial dictatorship while Israel is still depicted as a "benign", "besieged" ethnocracy.

Coyote: 

*South Africa was a "bad" ethnocracy while Israel is a good one with "a functioning democratic system of government".*

A "functioning democratic system" that excludes millions of Palestinians just like South Africa did in the past.

tsk, tsk, tsk...

I rest my case regarding the bombardment of Westerners by the pro israeli propaganda machine and the resulting brainwashing.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 20, 2010)

José;1926247 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Coyote*
> > Israel has a functioning democratic system of government, independent courts and a pretty powerful free press. A free press,
> >
> > I might add that is more critical of it's own then our "free press" is of Israel.
> ...



Close, but not exactly the same.  "Functioning democracy" is not the same as "perfect democracy" is not the same as "dictatorship".  I don't disagree with the comparisons you draw to Apartheid South Africa, but neither one is a dictatorship.



> Would Coyote have the guts to state outloud that South Africa under Apartheid "*had a functioning democratic system of government*"?



Yes.  At one time women couldn't vote in this country.  They were not granted suffrage.  Was that right?  Hell no.  People under the age of 18 can't vote.  Does that mean we're not a democracy?  No.  There are different kinds of democracies.



> Would Coyote have the guts to say America had "*a functioning democratic system of government*" if it excluded millions of black, hispanic americans from the electoral process?



Yes.  You are attaching a moral label to what is nothing more than a system of government.  A democracy doesn't have to include such concepts political pluralism, equality, due process, civil liberties, human rights in order to be a democracy.



> Most likely not. Because even in the unconscious collective of many Israel's critics like Coyote South Africa under Apartheid is portrayed as a malignant, oppressive racial dictatorship while Israel is still depicted as a "benign", "besieged" ethnocracy.



Wrong, again.



> Coyote:
> 
> *South Africa was a "bad" ethnocracy while Israel is a good one with "a functioning democratic system of government".*
> 
> ...



tsk indeed.  You make a lot of unfounded assumptions on what I think 



> I rest my case regarding the bombardment of Westerners by the pro israeli propaganda machine and the resulting brainwashing.



That could be true at times but shouldn't be assumed.


----------



## al Haq (Jan 21, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is recognized around the world as The _Only_ Superpower in the Middle East, equipped with the most technologically advanced military weapons that American tax money can buy.
> ...



Israel is by far the dominant power in the Middle East, politically, militarily and economically.  No other country in the region even remotely approaches Israel's power.  This is simply a fact.    

And as I will discuss in the posts coming up, Israel has certainly been the main aggressor in its ongoing conflicts with its neighbors.



GHook93 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > It's bristling with an arsenal of nukes, and perennially shielded from international sanctions for its appalling behavior by its BFF, the U.S. government.
> ...



Proximity.  Israel cant use its nukes on the Palestinians, Syrians or Lebanese with without nuking itself in the process.  If it could have, it would have.  

Meanwhile, Israel has done more than its share of attacking its neighbors with its formidable array of conventional weapons.

But countries that are a bit further away (like Iran) are understandably quite nervous that Israel is the only one in the area with nukes, given its track record.  They would probably like to have something that would deter Israel from getting any bright ideas about expanding in their direction.



GHook93 said:


> al Haq said:
> 
> 
> > The Israeli government is terrified of the possibility that any other country in the region might be able to challenge its singular, overwhelming advantage -- because then Israel might not be able to bully its neighbors around and appropriate their territory any more, but instead have to learn to get along with them.  A frightening idea, indeed.
> ...



"All her neighbors" said this?  Id like to see the source for that.

Anyway, in Zionist fairy tales, history always begins with The Arabs attacked Israel."

But in fact, Zionist militias and terror gangs started attacking Palestinians even before the State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948.  

In fact, hostilities had been flaring for decades.  Things got much worse when the UN Partition plan was announced in late November 1947.  And in December 1947, the British announced plans to withdraw their forces by May 15, 1948 (a decision largely due to repeated attacks from Zionist terror groups like the bombing of the King David Hotel.)

This was actually the first phase of the war, before its neighbors even got involved.  

By April 1948, Jewish terrorists were conducting massacres, like this one at Deir Yassin:



> For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashionThe attackers lined me, women and children up against the walls and shot them,The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country.
> 
> - Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel



The atrocities, expulsions and dispossessions conducted by Zionists against the Palestinian civilian population (which took place BEFORE May 15, 1948) are precisely what prompted the Arab states to enter the war.  They waited until the British Mandate ended to do so:



> Before the end of the mandate, and therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupiedmost of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...
> 
> -Henry Cattan, Palestine, The Arabs and Israel





> During that fateful April of 1948, *eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state.*
> 
> In contrast, *the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.*
> 
> -Henry Cattan, Palestine, The Arabs and Israel



So the story isn't quite the way you told it.

I will be back to deal with the rest of your post.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

al Haq said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > al Haq said:
> ...



Good post.

Israel has always been the aggressor.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel has always been the aggressor.



Not in the '47 civil war.
Not in the '48 war
Not in the '67 war
Not in the '73 war
Not in the second intifada
Not in the Gaza war.

You have out-dummied yourself, dummy.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

al Haq said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > al Haq said:
> ...



Quoting Cattan is not very useful given Cattan is a pro-Arab partisan, having even represented Arab interests in official capacities...


> He testified before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry on Palestine in 1946. He was a member of the delegation which represented the Arab Higher Committee before the United Nations General Assembly in 1947 and 1948


Henry Cattan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, dummy.


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## al Haq (Jan 21, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> In '53 Egypt cut of the Suez Canal which was an act of war. Only time in her history she had actual foreign army help



Again, your history is laughable.  The Suez Crisis occurred in 1956 (not 1953.)  It didnt occur as some kind of act of war against Israel.  Here's what really happened:



> The Suez Crisis began on 26 July 1956, when, following the United States decision to withdraw its offer of a grant to aid the construction of Egypts Aswan High Dam, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. The governments of Britain and France secretly began planning for an invasion of Egypt. Not to be outdone, Israel soon was doing its own invasion planning, completing its final plan on 5 October. After several international mediation efforts had failed, Britain and France agreed in mid-October 1956 to undertake a joint intervention in Egypt. Aware of the upcoming Israeli plan to invade the Sinai, French officials suggested that a Franco-British force could enter Egypt ostensibly to separate the combatants, while actually seizing control of the entire Suez waterway. On 26 October, the United States learned of Israels military mobilization, and President Dwight Eisenhower sent the first of two personal messages to Israeli Prime Minister Ben Gurion asking that Israel do nothing to endanger the peace. In the Mediterranean on the 28th, the U.S. Sixth Fleet was placed on alert. Undeterred by U.S. diplomatic maneuvering, Israeli forces began attacks in Egypt on 29 October.
> 
> Source: Suez Crisis


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

al Haq said:


> Israel is by far the dominant power in the Middle East, politically, militarily and economically.  No other country in the region even remotely approaches Israel's power.  This is simply a fact.



Must suck for the backward, unsuccessful Arab and Muslim shitholes that Jewish infidels are superior, eh?



> And as I will discuss in the posts coming up, Israel has certainly been the main aggressor in its ongoing conflicts with its neighbors.



More bullshit fro you?  Allah lies.  Allah deceives.  



> Meanwhile, Israel has done more than its share of attacking its neighbors with its formidable array of conventional weapons.



It's calledself-defense, dummy.



> But countries that are a bit further away (like Iran) are understandably quite nervous that Israel is the only one in the area with nukes, given its track record.  They would probably like to have something that would deter Israel from getting any bright ideas about expanding in their direction.



Most Arabs and Muslims view Iran, not Israel, as the #1 threat. 



> Anyway, in Zionist fairy tales, history always begins with The Arabs attacked Israel."



History, dummy.



> But in fact, Zionist militias and terror gangs started attacking Palestinians even before the State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948.



Zionists were attacked by Muslim savages as early as 1920, dummy, and did not stop through their initiation of the '48 war, dummy. 



> In fact, hostilities had been flaring for decades.  Things got much worse when the UN Partition plan was announced in late November 1947.  And in December 1947, the British announced plans to withdraw their forces by May 15, 1948 (a decision largely due to repeated attacks from Zionist terror groups like the bombing of the King David Hotel.)



Hostilities flared from Arab and Muslim thugs, dummy. 



> The atrocities, expulsions and dispossessions conducted by Zionists against the Palestinian civilian population (which took place BEFORE May 15, 1948) are precisely what prompted the Arab states to enter the war.  They waited until the British Mandate ended to do so:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cattan is no historian, dummy.  History edifies that Arabs and Muslims have terrorized Jews since the 7th century, when Muhammad the pedophile prophet roamed like a wild dog.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

ahh yes... more "jews are superior" riffraff from the most ironic jew to hit the interwebs since bernie maddoff....







:yawn:


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Come on, Marc, you are the expert.

"Is that why some of the staunchest supporters of Palestine are Christians and some are even Jews?"

It is not a complicated question.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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You are a simpleton, dummy, thus, everything is complicated to you.

Did I mention you're a dummy?


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Marc39 said:
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well.. it looks like our little jewboy can't answer.  I bet he can shoot a pregnant pali like the shirt he's wearing though!


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
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Proud Jewboy.  Jews have given among the greatest contributions to civilization.  And, continue to do so.  And, what have Arabs and Muslims given the world, besides terrorism?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYgrziadQIo]YouTube - Algerian author Anwar Malek talks about the arab world.[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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It seems that you are the one who cannot answer a simple question.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
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I'm sure Bernie Maddoff was PROUD TOO, jewboy.  Your superior race tribe really doesn't take into consideration how many other ethnic groups have dominated the shit out of your entire clan, eh jew boy?  YOU ARE WELCOME for unlocking the door to your ancestors concentration camp, yellow star.  Lord fucking knows the irony of your master race Judaism is more apparent than that giant honking nose on your face.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> I'm sure Bernie Maddoff was PROUD TOO, jewboy.  Your superior race tribe really doesn't take into consideration how many other ethnic groups have dominated the shit out of your entire clan, eh jew boy?  YOU ARE WELCOME for unlocking the door to your ancestors concentration camp, yellow star.  Lord fucking knows the irony of your master race Judaism is more apparent than that giant honking nose on your face.



You're jealous of Jews because you are a loser in life.  That is your problem, not mine.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure Bernie Maddoff was PROUD TOO, jewboy.  Your superior race tribe really doesn't take into consideration how many other ethnic groups have dominated the shit out of your entire clan, eh jew boy?  YOU ARE WELCOME for unlocking the door to your ancestors concentration camp, yellow star.  Lord fucking knows the irony of your master race Judaism is more apparent than that giant honking nose on your face.
> ...



I'll share that joke with you the next time your kind find yourselves being gassed in the showers and looking like sad puppydogs from behind concentration camp walls.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> I'll share that joke with you the next time your kind find yourselves being gassed in the showers and looking like sad puppydogs from behind concentration camp walls.



Germans are the sad puppydogs with Germany having been reduced to a third-rate country.

Jews don't look like sad puppydogs these days.  Israel is one of the most prosperous, successful and advanced countries in the world.

And, the Arabs and Muslims are the most backward, unsuccessful and pathetic countries in the world.

Sucka!


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure Bernie Maddoff was PROUD TOO, jewboy.  Your superior race tribe really doesn't take into consideration how many other ethnic groups have dominated the shit out of your entire clan, eh jew boy?  YOU ARE WELCOME for unlocking the door to your ancestors concentration camp, yellow star.  Lord fucking knows the irony of your master race Judaism is more apparent than that giant honking nose on your face.
> ...



Fill me in. What is shogun's financial status? Where did you get that info?


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Good post.
> 
> *Israel has always been the aggressor.*



Uh....no.  Both sides have done their share of provocation and agression.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
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Shogun is a failure in life.   I can buy and sell Shogun with one hand tied behind my back.  Shogun is my dog.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Good post.
> ...



Except for the fact that Israel occupies Palestine. Palestine's actions are defensive.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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You duck questions nice.


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
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Both the Jewish people and the Arab people have contributed much to civilization - in terms of arts, science, architecture, medicine, mathamatics, and the preservation of knowledge during dark times.

I often hear the argument: what have Arabs contributed besides terrorism.  It's an argument that says more about the deliberate ignorance of the questioner than any real desire to know.


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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It's not as clean-cut as that.

Israel has a history of provocation disguised as"retaliation".  The Palestinians share that same history.  They have had opportunites for peace early on but refused to compromise.

As for "defensive" - deliberately firing rockets at a bus load of children or exploding a bomb in a crowded market - is not.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Has there ever been an instance that the Palestinians attacked anyone who did not occupy their country?


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Israel has a history of provocation disguised as"retaliation".  The Palestinians share that same history.  They have had opportunites for peace early on but refused to compromise.



Your own fictional account of history, perhaps, but, not in reality.


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## GHook93 (Jan 21, 2010)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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Please it only provocation to you leftys and the antisemites like P F and Shogun. Waiting a year to respond to 1000s upon 1000s of missile attacks is beyond restraints. In fact its reckless restraints.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Palestinians never attacked civilians until (i think it was) 1994 after a settler freak machine gunned a mosque killing and wounding many civilians. A month or so later was the first suicide bombing.

In 2006 Hamas called for a cease fire. That year 23 Israelis were killed. Israel killed almost 500 Palestinians.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinians never attacked civilians until (i think it was) 1994 after a settler freak machine gunned a mosque killing and wounding many civilians. A month or so later was the first suicide bombing.
> 
> In 2006 Hamas called for a cease fire. That year 23 Israelis were killed. Israel killed almost 500 Palestinians.



Wrong, dummy.  Palestinians attacked Jews dating back to 1920.  Open a book, dummy.

Palestinians attacked civilians in the second intifada, when 1,000 Israelis were killed and 6,000 wounded.

Palestinians attacked civilians by shelling Israel with 12,000 rockets and continue to do so.

You are one fucking dummy.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > I'll share that joke with you the next time your kind find yourselves being gassed in the showers and looking like sad puppydogs from behind concentration camp walls.
> ...




as your kind saw the last time you canaanized the land.. easy come, easy go.  You might want to learn some history before you discover the irony of your master race opinion.

lord knows.. when it comes to people being historically dominated and having the shit kicked out of them the only group that comes to mind are jews.


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinians never attacked civilians until (i think it was) 1994 after a settler freak machine gunned a mosque killing and wounding many civilians. A month or so later was the first suicide bombing.
> 
> In 2006 Hamas called for a cease fire. That year 23 Israelis were killed. Israel killed almost 500 Palestinians.



I found these: List of terrorist incidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1968 26 December: Two Palestinian gunmen travelled from Beirut to Athens and attacked an El Al jet there, killing one person.

1970 May 8: Avivim school bus attacks by Palestinian PLO members, killing nine children and three adults and crippling 19 children.

1972 September 5: Black September kidnaps and kills eleven Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre.

1974:

April 11: Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members, killing 18 people, nine of whom were children.

May 15: Ma'alot massacre at the Ma'alot High School in Northern Israel by Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members: 26 of the hostages were killed, 66 wounded.

1975  March 5: In the Savoy Operation, Palestine Liberation Organization gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel, eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding eleven hostages.

1978:
 Israel: Members of the Arab Revolutionary Council poison Israeli oranges with mercury, injuring at least twelve people and reducing exports by 40 percent.

 Israel, March 11: Coastal Road massacre: Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed.

...and so on...

it looks pretty deadly for civilians.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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a jew might think so... but, then again... holocaust boy seems to have forgotten all about his ancestors "buying and selling germans" from Auschwitz so...


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
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> > Shogun said:
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true story.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Israel has a history of provocation disguised as"retaliation".  The Palestinians share that same history.  They have had opportunites for peace early on but refused to compromise.
> ...



run back to the jewish virtual library, jew boy.




clearly, you've been served well in your education.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Coyote said:
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says the sheisty jew who wants terribly to ignore how many palis have killed jews versus how many jews have killed palis.


One shot, two kills... right shlomo?


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Israel has a history of provocation disguised as"retaliation".  The Palestinians share that same history.  They have had opportunites for peace early on but refused to compromise.
> ...



 uh huh.....since you steadfastly refuse to provide sources to back up your claims or refute points, and you persist in "dummy" exchanges over substance, I don't think you are in a position to judge reality from fiction.

But, I'm an optimist   Counter the points rather and I'll be happy to debate them.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> says the sheisty jew who wants terribly to ignore how many palis have killed jews versus how many jews have killed palis.
> 
> 
> One shot, two kills... right shlomo?



More Pallies were killed by King Hussein during a few weeks of Black September than have died in conflicts with Israel since Israel's founding in 1948.

An inconvenient fact, eh, Muhammad?


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > says the sheisty jew who wants terribly to ignore how many palis have killed jews versus how many jews have killed palis.
> ...



that doesn't mean that less palis have been killed by jews than jews killed by palis since the inception of israel, lil jew boy.  Leave it to a master race jew to believe that one genocide validates another.



I guess historic fact is just antisemitic like that, eh Schlomo jr?


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## jillian (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> says the sheisty jew who wants terribly to ignore how many palis have killed jews versus how many jews have killed palis.
> 
> 
> One shot, two kills... right shlomo?



Well, I'm thinking that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ignores how many jews have been killed by pals.

funny, no?


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > says the sheisty jew who wants terribly to ignore how many palis have killed jews versus how many jews have killed palis.
> ...



well, I'm thinking that Jillybean ignores how many palis have been killed by jews...


What are the odds that YOU want to compare those numbers?  Pretty slim, i'm sure.  But, don't let that keep you from knee jerking your support for our latest master race jew to come along and insist that jews are the new global ubermensch.




ps.. names are inconsequential to ignoring human lives lost, jillybean... it's too bad that you let your race usurp your concern for humanity.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



More Pallies have died than Jews because, in large part, Pallies fight from within civilian population centers that jeopardizes their own people.

D'oh, dummy.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
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Um, Pallies are undergoing a population explosion, dummy, kind of undermining your idiotic claim of an Israeli genocide.

Allah is a dick


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
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way to rationalize the deaths of your version of the israeli ******, boy!


I know I know... if only those ******* would have stayed on the field then they would never have been strung up from trees!


Hey JILLIAN... this is what you find yourself supporting in a knee jerk ethnic common denominator.


congrats!


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
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maybe.. but he's a bigger DICK than your half pound ass, lil jew boy.  hell, blacks underwent a populations EXPLOSION while slavery was in effect too.  I guess they don't teach you that in jew school.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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> > Shogun said:
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The suicide monkees justify their own deaths, Muhammad...
"We Desire Death"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]YouTube - Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life"[/ame]


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## jillian (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> well, I'm thinking that Jillybean ignores how many palis have been killed by jews...
> 
> 
> What are the odds that YOU want to compare those numbers?  Pretty slim, i'm sure.  But, don't let that keep you from knee jerking your support for our latest master race jew to come along and insist that jews are the new global ubermensch.
> ...



You know better, David. I always worry that people die. I just don't believe in dying at the hands of terrorists. And I think that if you were really worried about innocent lives, your objection would be to the terrorists of Hamas who use innocent civilians as shields.

It's sad... but I, personally, wouldn't die to avoid fighting back because of it.

Would you, Dah-veed?

p.s. Do you disavow pondscum like Tinmore? Didn't think so. 

I don't agree with a lot of what others say, you know that, too. But I'm not going to criticize them when you guys relentlessly defend murdering terrorists.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
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Lord knows your blood drinking ass has no shortage of DEATH, right killer?  I bet you masturbate into a One Shot, Two Kills t shirt every night after discovering that first hair on your tiny nutsack.


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## CMike (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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> > Shogun said:
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrllCZw8jiM]YouTube - Stripes - Don't Call Me Francis[/ame]


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > says the sheisty jew who wants terribly to ignore how many palis have killed jews versus how many jews have killed palis.
> ...



The death tolls for Black September were estimated between three thousand to more than five thousand with exact numbers being unknown Jordan estimated the Palestinian death toll at 3, 400 and the Palestinians claiming 10,000 (but there seems to be no evidence supporting that claim beyond Arafat).

Palestinian fatalities from 2000-2008 in the conflicts with Israel:  4,836

Between 1987-2000:  1549 Palestinians killed.

An inconvenient fact.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > well, I'm thinking that Jillybean ignores how many palis have been killed by jews...
> ...



I would LOVE to give you the benefit of the doubt, Jillian, but when you come along and totally disregard what Little Master Race posts just to snipe at my name I have to wonder.

No one is asking you to die.  Leave the mellowdrama at your synagogue.  Again, tell me who has seen more death, YOU or THEM.  And then ask yourself why you find yourself acting like a good german sending their kids to furhor youth camp instead of being even the slightest bit remorseful about the killer products of zionism.  


and, we've seen shields on both sides, honeybear..  do you REALLY want to bring that up?

tinsmore and I don't share a common bond in this forum.  You and lil master race boy do.  and, if you want to believe that i've never taken actual antisemites to task.. well, I guess it's ONE WAY to feel good about your position.


post the relative death toll since the inception of israel and lets talk about who wants to kill whom, Jillian.  zionism is pretty clear about displacing all non jews for the sake of RACIAL PURITY.   It's a shame, if the topic were any other ethnic groups vieing for RACIAL PURITY we both know you'd be singing a different tune.


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
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Gaza is the most densly populated place on earth.  They are not allowed to leave. You think that might have something to do with the fact they fight from within civilian population centers?


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
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the only good pali is a dead pali... 


wonder where we've heard this kind of language before.


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## CMike (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



You can blame the death toll of the arabs on the palestinian terorrists who hide behind women and children when they launch their terrorist attacks.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

CMike said:


> Shogun said:
> 
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oh looky... the same ole "blame her for getting raped because of what she wore and where she chose to walk" excuses... 


gosh.. ITS SO RARE TO SEE RACISTS RATIONALIZE THE DEATH THEY ALLOW.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
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Pallies fighting from within civilian populations constitutes self-rape.  Why do Muslims love death so much, you sand rat?


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
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Hey jillian!  I bet this makes your mouth water, eh?


THEY SELF RAPE, says little master race boy.


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

CMike said:


> You can blame the death toll of the arabs on the palestinian terorrists who hide behind women and children when they launch their terrorist attacks.



You think?



Coyote said:


> Gaza is the most densly populated place on earth.  They are not allowed to leave. You think that might have something to do with the fact they fight from within civilian population centers?


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

Seems like some here have forgotten their potty-training.  Maybe it's time to flush this thread....?


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> THEY SELF RAPE, says little master race boy.



Allah kills his own...
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg]YouTube - Hamas - "We desire death like you desire life"[/ame]


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > THEY SELF RAPE, says little master race boy.
> ...



.... as opposed to JEWS who just kill everyone  else...


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## jillian (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Hey jillian!  I bet this makes your mouth water, eh?
> 
> 
> THEY SELF RAPE, says little master race boy.



hey, bubbalah, when have you ever heard me come close to expressing anything close to that. when have I ever even implied I would find anything like that acceptable?

don't project your hatred onto me, Dah-veed.

But, I will say that terrorists using civilians as shields, and victimizing their own people, is no reason for israelis to die.

I know.. I know.. much to your chagrin.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> .... as opposed to JEWS who just kill everyone  else...



Arabs and Muslims are killing everyone.  Muhammad was the original terrorist as well as a pedophile.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > .... as opposed to JEWS who just kill everyone  else...
> ...



do you really want me to start quoting from your holy book all about the killing of children and the fucking of daughters, lil master race boy?


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## GHook93 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> do you really want me to start...



If you really want to know what we want you to do, talking  (or typing) is not one of them! Jumping off a bridge, getting drunk and playing in traffic and eating rat poisoning might be a few things I wouldn't mind seeing you do!


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> do you really want me to start quoting from your holy book all about the killing of children and the fucking of daughters, lil master race boy?



Let's be more recent, like Muslim Turks' involvement in the genocode of 2 million Armenians.

Or, 1 million Muslims and Arabs killed in the Iran-Iraq war.

Or, hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Arabs killed in the Lebanese Civil War.

Or, hundreds of thousands of Arabs and Muslims killed in Algerian wars.

Or, hundreds of thousands of Muslims killed in Bangladesh wars

Or, 20,000 Muslims and Arabs killed in Hama by the Syrian army

Or, thousands of Muslims and Arabs killed in Yemen wars.

I could go on and on.  Freaking Arabs and Muslims are only proficient in murdering each other and terrorizing the rest of civilization.

Allah is a dog.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

GHook93 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > do you really want me to start...
> ...



yea yea yea.. go learn some english, ya fucking jew.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > do you really want me to start quoting from your holy book all about the killing of children and the fucking of daughters, lil master race boy?
> ...





All that muslim blood makes your tiny dick hard, doesn't it ya little half roll of tums?


nice avoidance of quotes from your holy book, lil guy.  I guess you are too scared of bald jews and she bears...  when you are not fucking your daughters, that is.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> yea yea yea.. go learn some english, ya fucking jew.



Jews have been awarded 160 Nobel Prizes for their achievements.  Islamists have won a meager...3.

Jews are quite articulate and educated, thank you.


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## jillian (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> yea yea yea.. go learn some english, ya fucking jew.



am I proud?

I dunno David, is "jew" an insult?

and whose verbiage is more offensive? His? Or yours?

You do know that the size of your font is generally inversely proportionate to the value of the point you make.

kind of like when you're sitting in a restaurant and the volume of people's voices is inversely proportionate to their intellect.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

jillian said:


> You do know that the size of your font is generally inversely proportionate to the value of the point you make.



The large size of his font is inversely proportionate to the size of his pee pee.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Hey jillian!  I bet this makes your mouth water, eh?
> ...



Like I said, jillybean... it's pretty clear why you are so selective in your criticism of "hatred" here.  I'm quite sure that you'd send me a fucking blintz basket if I used the exact same tone but told you that I was jewish.

See little master race boy for further validation.


and, you can cram that little "you just want to see dead jews floating" routine, Jillybean.  We've been through that already and you always balk at quoting me.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > yea yea yea.. go learn some english, ya fucking jew.
> ...



and burn like candles in mass graves!

now run along so your mommy doesn't get worried, tyke.


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## CMike (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Lighten up Francis.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > You do know that the size of your font is generally inversely proportionate to the value of the point you make.
> ...





got your mouth watering, doesn't it, little chosen boy?


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## CMike (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > You do know that the size of your font is generally inversely proportionate to the value of the point you make.
> ...


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## CMike (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Oh oh he is starting to fantasize about it.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> got your mouth watering, doesn't it, little chosen boy?



Apparently, it got your mouth watering since you thought of it.

Sucks that Jews are so much more successful than you, eh?


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > yea yea yea.. go learn some english, ya fucking jew.
> ...





Go ahead and answer that question after you dive back and forth across little chosen boy's posts some more.  Not that I'd expect you to be terribly offended by all the "master race" talk as long as it's applied to your own race.

and, no.. the size of my font correlates with dragging you back into a thread that you'd otherwise ignore while it's the racist jews talking about the inherent SUPERIORITY of the chosen race.  Usually it takes this kind of font to drag you back out of the cradle in which you ignore the hatred of everyone else by jews.

again, see the posts of little chosen boy.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

CMike said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



sorry, dude.  you are gonna have to find someone else to fill that Sasha Baron Cohen fantasy of yours.


----------



## jillian (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Like I said, jillybean... it's pretty clear why you are so selective in your criticism of "hatred" here.  I'm quite sure that you'd send me a fucking blintz basket if I used the exact same tone but told you that I was jewish.
> 
> See little master race boy for further validation.
> 
> ...



Just call it as I see it Shogie. You know that. I find it difficult getting up a head of steam in regard to him insulting you when you use the word "jew" as an insult. I've never thought that was what it is. Nor do I intend to. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. I just figure you're both giving as good as you get.

... except you're the one insulting me. Jew isn't an insult, snookie bear.

hugs and kisses...


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



If you fixated less on Jews and more on your own life, perhaps, you would be successful, too, and not obsess on the Jews.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > got your mouth watering, doesn't it, little chosen boy?
> ...



uh, is it time for "I know you are but what am I" already, lil guy?

hey JILLIAN... PROUD YET?








so.. how DOES one say Sig Heil in yiddish?


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## jillian (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Last response before I go home from work.

I don't generally involve myself in this stupidity because a) I don't like having people use "jew" as an insult. b) I don't ever use verbiage like you're referring to. Nor have I ever given you cause to believe I think that way. c) I don't care for the idea that it's ok to kill jews but pals are victims. I figure if they stop lobbing missiles while using their own women and children as shields, they'd live longer. Or maybe you'd like to live in S'derot? I also tend to avoid threads like this because of the whole teaching pigs to talk thing. It doesn't work. It just annoys the pigs. So why bother?

It just amused me to jump in for a few since I got a personal invitation.

G'night David. Have a good evening.


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## jillian (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



like I said, bubbalah, stop using jew as an insult. maybe you'll get a different response. it's that whole nah nah nah nah nah thing.

now, mommy says both you boys behave.

night night.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...




A) "jew" is not an insult.  but, when there is a CLEAR us versus them taint to the forum input by those who seem to think that the new master race is inherently superior to everyone else you'll have to forgive me for patronizing this distinction.

B) You leap across the verbiage like a fucking stepping stone when the likes of JEWS use hate filled language.. but don't bat an eye when trying to pounce on me for returning the favor.  The selective application of your criticism is obvious.  Again, if I spoke the exact way I do now and told you I was jewish I have no doubt that you'd skip every post of mine and dig your claws into whoever I was talking at.  Again, See little chosen boy.

C) I don't advocate for ANYONE being killed.  I want rockets to stop as much as you do.  But, it's disingenuous to blame palis for killings when the numbers show us who has more blood on the ground by whom.  This is why I remind you that the USA would not nuke juarez mexico if SOME mexicans were lobbing rockets into texas.  We'd extract the criminals and NOT rationalize a blanket violent reaction under the guise of "well, all mexicans are violent drug lords and we are justified in killing civvies because SOME drug lords are violent".  And, ESPECIALLY so when you literally SEE little chosen boy insist left and right that jews are the latest ubermensch to hit the globe.  I understand being proud of your heritage and bless you for that.  BUT, this selectiveness and quick rationalization of dead palis isn't just pride in being jewish; it's the exact kind of apathy that caused the holocaust, ironically.


You have a great evening too, Jillian!  I hope your drive home is swift and your evening relaxing.


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## elvis (Jan 21, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



First of all, it's "Sieg heil.".


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## CMike (Jan 21, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIJOAZ1pak]YouTube - Ofra Haza Yerushalaim Shel Zahav (Jerusalem of Gold) subbed[/ame]


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## Kalam (Jan 21, 2010)

Is Marc the guy who claimed to be a senior Goldman Sachs executive?


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## The Rabbi (Jan 21, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Is Marc the guy who claimed to be a senior Goldman Sachs executive?



Are you the guy who claimed to be a muslim?


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## Kalam (Jan 21, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Is Marc the guy who claimed to be a senior Goldman Sachs executive?
> ...


Are you the jew who denied that Islam recognizes Isa ibn Maryam as the Masih?


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## Dr Grump (Jan 21, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Is Marc the guy who claimed to be a senior Goldman Sachs executive?
> ...



Are you the guy that claimed to be a rabbi?


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## Coyote (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > yea yea yea.. go learn some english, ya fucking jew.
> ...



Nobel Prizes are the only measure of achievement?  You are just as small minded as those you criticize.  The only reason many people know so little about Islamic achievement is our schooling is western-oriented and spends precious little time on non-western cultures leading to the ignorant assumption that they've contributed little.

Muslims were the first to make a science out of medicine for example.  The first camera obscura (that led to the invention of photography) was built by an Islamic scientist around 1000 AD.  A rudimentary smallpox vaccination process was practiced in Turkey and Persia (and China) a century before Jenner introduced the vaccine.  Look at Al-Jazari, a brilliant Islamic scholar, scientist and inventer.  Every modern day wonder and scientific achievement is built upon the works of an earlier age.  Without it we would not be where we are today.

Dummy.


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Islam has been a miserably failed ideology.  Muslim countries are among the poorest in the world filled with stratospheric unemployment and starvation.   One is hard-pressed to locate Muslims who have made significant contributions to civilization.

On the other hand, let's see what Jews have contributed...

Part 1.
The invention of local anesthesia by Carl Koller and the discovery of Novocaine by Alfred Einhorn. 

The discovery that pancreatic dysfunction is the cause of diabetes by Oskar Minkowski 

The discovery of the ABO and other human blood groups and of the Rh factor by Karl Landsteiner. (The M, N, and P blood groups were co-discovered with Philip Levine and the Rh factor was co-discovered with Alexander Wiener). Landsteiner received the 1930 Nobel Prize for this work; he is also considered to be one of the giants of immunology, having made major contributions to the understanding of the chemical basis of antigen-antibody interaction. 

The introduction of the side-chain theory of antibody formation by Paul Ehrlich, which has evolved into clonal selection theory, the central paradigm of modern immunology. Ehrlich shared the 1908 Nobel Prize with Élie Metchnikoff* for their independent contributions to immunology. Ehrlich is also considered to be the founder of modern chemotherapeutic medicine. His development of Salvarsan (1909) and Neosalvarsan (1911) constituted the first effective treatment for syphilis and, in the words of Sir Alexander Fleming, "the beginning - and a magnificent beginning - of bacterial chemotherapy" (i.e., antibiotics).

The development of streptomycin by Selman Waksman. Waksman received the 1952 Nobel Prize for this work, which created the first antibiotic (a term that he introduced) effective against tuberculosis, for which (in combination with other drugs) it remains a therapeutic mainstay. 

The isolation of cortisone by Tadeus Reichstein. Reichstein shared the 1950 Nobel Prize with Edward Kendall and Philip Hench. Reichstein and Kendall were recognized for having independently isolated and characterized the hormones of the adrenal cortex. 

The chemical synthesis of cortisone for large-scale production was achieved independently by the chemists Carl Djerassi and Percy Julian. 

The invention of acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) by Charles Gerhardt. Aspirin is an artificially modified form of salicylic acid, a naturally occurring substance that can be obtained from the bark of willow trees, whose analgesic properties have been known since antiquity. Salicylic acid is, however, very poorly tolerated by the digestive system, which greatly limits its medicinal value. The original proposal to reduce its toxicity through acetylation, and the first synthesis of acetylsalicylic acid was the work of Charles Frédéric Gerhardt. Although Gerhardt's 1853 synthesis apparently failed to yield acetylsalicylic acid of sufficient purity to be medicinally useful, the basic idea behind aspirin was his. The first successful synthesis of pure acetylsalicylic acid was achieved in 1897 by Felix Hoffmann, working at F. Bayer & Co. in Germany. Recently developed evidence indicates, however, that credit for this development should have gone equally, or even predominantly, to Hoffmann's supervisor, Arthur Eichengrun. 

The discovery of prostaglandins by M. W. Goldblatt. (Also discovered independently by Ulf von Euler.) Sir John Vane was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1982 for demonstrating that the anti-inflammatory and analgesic action of aspirin-like drugs was via their inhibition of prostaglandin production. Vane also discovered the vasodilator prostacyclin, which led directly to the development of the ACE inhibitors that are widely used in the treatment of hypertension, heart failure, and other vascular diseases. The development of the COX-2 selective inhibitors (such as the "super-aspirin" Celebrex, widely used by severe arthritis sufferers) was largely the work of Philip Needleman.

The discovery of neurotransmitters by Otto Loewi. Loewi shared the 1936 Nobel Prize with Sir Henry Dale+ for their independent work on acetylcholine. Sir Bernard Katz and Julius Axelrod shared the 1970 Nobel Prize with Ulf von Euler for advanced work on neurotransmitters. Their work led directly to the development of the class of anti-depressants that includes Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil. Axelrod was also the co-developer, with Bernard Brodie, of the pain reliever acetaminophen (Tylenol). 

The discovery of endorphins and enkephalins by Solomon Snyder and Hans Kosterlitz, respectively. 

The discovery and characterization of growth factors by Rita Levi-Montalcini, Viktor Hamburger, and Stanley H. Cohen. Levi-Montalcini and Cohen shared the 1986 Nobel Prize for their identification and isolation of the nerve and epidermal growth factors, respectively. Growth factors (others of which were subsequently discovered) are protein molecular "signals" emitted by cells to control growth and differentiation in neighboring cells. Cohen also elucidated the biochemical pathways through which growth factors act after binding to receptors on the outer membranes of target cells. Growth factors play a large role in embryonic development and are thought to have potential medical application in nerve regeneration, accelerated wound healing, and in the understanding and control of tumor cell proliferation. 

The development of Warfarin (Coumadin) anticoagulant therapy by Shepard Shapiro. Warfarin is the most commonly used anticoagulant for the prevention of heart attacks and strokes. It is also one of the most widely prescribed medications in the world. It was discovered in 1946 by Karl Paul Link, who developed it as a rat poison. Its identification and development for use in human anticoagulant therapy resulted from the work of Shapiro in the early 1950s. Previously, in the early 1940s, Shapiro had pioneered the clinical use of the anti-clotting agent methylene dicoumarin (dicoumarol), which was also discovered by Link. 

The development of oral contraceptives by Gregory Pincus, Carl Djerassi, and Frank Colton.

The development of the Salk and Sabin polio vaccines by Jonas Salk and Albert Sabin, respectively. The discovery that the causative agent in polio was, in fact, a virus was made in 1908 by Karl Landsteiner and Erwin Popper.

The development of the Hepatitis-B vaccine by Baruch Blumberg and Irving Millman. Blumberg received the 1976 Nobel Prize, in part for this work. 

The co-discovery of interferon by Alick Isaacs (in collaboration with Jean Lindenmann). The large-scale production of recombinant interferon for medical use (a market currently in excess of $7 billion annually) is based largely on the work of Charles Weissmann and Sidney Pestka. Pestka received the US National Medal of Technology in 2001. 

The invention of cancer chemotherapy by Louis Goodman, Alfred Gilman, and Sidney Farber. In the early 1940s, Goodman and Gilman discovered the effectiveness of mechlorethamine ("nitrogen mustard") in the treatment of lymphatic malignancies. In the late 1940s, Farber produced the first chemically induced remissions from leukemia using the folic acid inhibitors aminopterin and methotrexate. Eventually mechlorethamine and methotrexate, used in combination with other anti-cancer agents (mechlorethamine is the "M" in MOPP) and radiation, would lead to cures for many previously fatal lymphomas and leukemias, respectively. 

The co-development of 6-mercaptopurine (6-MP) by Gertrude Elion, which used in combination with methotrexate and other drugs, has led to cures for most forms of childhood leukemia. Elion was also the co-developer of azathioprine (Imuran), the immunosuppressant that made organ transplants possible between individuals other than identical twins, and of acyclovir (Zovirax) for the treatment of herpes viral infections. Elion and George Hitchings+ received the 1988 Nobel Prize for their joint work. 

The discovery and development of cisplatin by Barnett Rosenberg, which has led to a complete reversal in the prognosis for testicular cancer, a malignancy that had almost always been fatal and is now roughly 90% curable. The chemotherapeutic protocols for the use of cisplatin in the treatment and cure of testicular cancer were developed by Lawrence Einhorn (who supervised the successful treatment of Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong).


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Jewish contributions part 2.

The revolutionizing of radiation oncology by Henry Kaplan. Kaplan, the long-time head of radiology at Stanford Medical School, introduced the use of megavolt x-ray therapy in the 1950s, using linear accelerators (LINACs) to generate the required high-energy radiation. The medical LINAC is now the primary tool used in radiation oncology worldwide. Since the 1950s, an estimated forty million cancer patients have received such radiation treatments. (Currently about half of all cancer patients receive radiotherapy, primarily from LINAC-generated x-rays.) Even more significantly, Kaplan and his associates demonstrated that radiotherapy could be employed as a curative, rather than a merely palliative, cancer treatment. By the late 1970s, using radiotherapy protocols largely developed by Kaplan and his group, cure rates of 70%-80% were being achieved in patients with early-stage Hodgkin's lymphoma, which had previously been a uniformly fatal disease. Kaplan and Saul Rosenberg were the first to apply chemotherapy as an adjunct to radiation therapy in Hodgkin's disease, their regimens achieving initial cure rates in the late 1970s of 30%-40% in late-stage Hodgkin's disease. (With subsequent dramatic improvements in chemotherapy, the primary and secondary roles of radiation and chemotherapy have been reversed; cure rates are now 98% in early-stage Hodgkin's disease and 85% in advanced disease.) Kaplan and his associates were also responsible for the clinical trial studies that established the utility of the histopathologic classification scheme for non-Hodgkin's lymphomas proposed by Henry Rappaport in 1956. Although not widely accepted at the time, the Rappaport classification (with subsequent modifications) has become the most widely used in the staging and treatment of non-Hodgkin's lymphomas. For his pioneering work in radiation oncology, Kaplan became in 1969 the only non-physical scientist to be awarded the prestigious Atoms for Peace Award. 

The co-discovery of oncogenes by Harold Varmus and the elucidation of their role in human cancer by Robert Weinberg, Michael Wigler, Bert Vogelstein, Arnold Levine, and others. Varmus shared the 1989 Nobel Prize with Michael Bishop+ for this work. 

The discovery of retroviruses and their associated reverse transcriptase enzyme by David Baltimore and Howard Temin. Baltimore and Temin shared the 1975 Nobel Prize for their independent discovery of these viruses, which are implicated in AIDS and in some cancers, and whose existence disproved the "central dogma" of molecular biology.

The development of AZT, protease inhibitors, and other drugs used in the treatment of AIDS by Jerome Horwitz, Samuel Broder, and Irving Sigal. AZT (Retrovir), which was originally synthesized by Horwitz for use as an anti-cancer agent, proved to be the first of the reverse transcriptase inhibitors found effective against HIV. Its identification as such in clinical trials was largely the result of efforts led by Broder, who also co-developed two other reverse transcriptase inhibitors (ddl and ddC). Sigal, who was senior director of molecular biology at Merck prior to his death in the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, was the first to demonstrate the effectiveness of protease inhibitors against HIV. Used in combination, the various reverse transcriptase and protease inhibitors have dramatically improved the outlook for AIDS patients.

The co-invention of monoclonal antibodies by César Milstein. Milstein shared the 1984 Nobel Prize with Georges Köhler for this work. 

The elucidation of the biochemistry of cellular metabolism by Otto Warburg, Otto Meyerhof, Gustav Embden, Jacob Parnas, Sir Hans Krebs, Fritz Lipmann, Herman Kalckar, Carl Neuberg, Gerty Cori, Konrad Bloch, and others. This includes much of the basic work on glycolysis (Embden-Meyerhof-Parnas pathway), the urea cycle, the citric acid cycle (Krebs cycle), the pentose phosphate pathway, and oxidative phosphorylation and the role of ATP, as well as significant contributions to the characterization of glycogen and fatty acid metabolism. Warburg, Meyerhof, Krebs, Lipmann, Cori, and Bloch all received Nobel Prizes. 

The invention of radioisotopic tracer techniques by George de Hevesy, Friedrich Paneth, Rudolf Schoenheimer, David Rittenberg, Martin Kamen, William Hassid, and Samuel Ruben. Hevesy and Paneth introduced the general technique, for which Hevesy won the 1943 Nobel Prize in chemistry; Kamen and Ruben discovered the long-lived carbon-14 radioisotope, which has had widespread application in biology (and is also the basis of radiocarbon dating). Melvin Calvin employed carbon-14 to elucidate the so-called dark reactions of photosynthesis, for which he was awarded the 1961 Nobel Prize in chemistry. (Others who made major contributions to the understanding of photosynthesis include the physicist George Feher and the Nobel laureates James Franck, Richard Willstätter, and Otto Warburg.) 

The invention of radioimmunoassay by Rosalyn Yalow and Solomon Berson, which has revolutionized clinical and research practice in such fields as endocrinology and blood banking. The technique, which can be made exquisitely sensitive to trace amounts (nano- and pico-molar concentrations) of specific blood substances, is employed in measuring the levels of most hormones, screening donated blood for hepatitis-B virus, and in allergy and drug level testing. Yalow received the Nobel Prize in 1977 for this work. (Berson died in 1972.)


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

Jewish contributions part 3.

The determination of key components of the experimental basis for the double helix model of DNA by Phoebus Levene, Erwin Chargaff, and Rosalind Franklin. In 1929, Levene discovered that DNA contains a sugar called deoxyribose and that it consists of a chain of what he termed "nucleotides," units composed of the deoxyribose sugar, a phosphate group, and one of four purine or pyrimidine bases. (The purine and pyrimidine molecular base constituents of DNA were discovered by the German biochemist Albrecht Kossel+.) Levene incorrectly concluded that all four bases were present in equal proportions. Chargaff, however, showed that the four bases were, in fact, present in specific pairwise ratios (adenine=thymine =/= guanine=cytosine), implying both structural base pairing and base coding of the genetic information. Finally, Rosalind Franklin's x-ray crystallographic studies of DNA provided the clear evidence for a double helical structure. The theoretical model of Watson and Crick was largely based on the experimental data provided by the aforementioned chemical and structural analyses. 

The breaking of the genetic code by Marshall Nirenberg. Nirenberg and Har Gobind Khorana+ shared the 1968 Nobel Prize for their independent determinations of the code. 

The co-discovery of the basic mechanisms of gene regulation by François Jacob, Walter Gilbert, Mark Ptashne, Andrew Fire, Gary Ruvkun, Howard Cedar, Aharon Razin, and Michael Levine. Jacob shared the 1965 Nobel Prize with Jacques Monod for their joint work on the development of the operon-repressor model of gene regulation, which was experimentally confirmed by Gilbert, who isolated the lac operon repressor (but whose 1980 Nobel Prize in chemistry was in recognition of other work), and by Ptashne, whose exploration of the phage lambda switch greatly elucidated the process by which regulatory proteins (repressors) switch on and off gene expression. Fire co-discovered RNA interference, an RNA-based gene control process, for which he shared a Nobel Prize in 2006. A second RNA-based gene control mechanism involving short strands of RNA called microRNA was co-discovered by Ruvkun. Cedar and Razin shared the 2008 Wolf Prize in Medicine for their discovery of DNA methylation, the basis of the new field of epigenetics, which deals with the molecular mechanisms involved in gene activation and suppression by environmental influences. Levine's work on the organization and function of the homeobox genes (which he co-discovered) "has done for animal development what the work on the lac operon and phage lambda did for understanding gene regulation in simpler organisms." The discovery of these master genes and their role in development has "shattered our previous notions of animal relationships and of what made animals different, and opened up a whole new way of looking at evolution." 

The discovery of RNA and major contributions to the elucidation of its structure and function by Phoebus Levene, François Jacob, Sydney Brenner, Matthew Meselson, Sol Spiegelman, Sidney Altman, Sir Aaron Klug, Alexander Rich, Leslie Orgel, Andrew Fire, Gary Ruvkun, Roger Kornberg, Ada Yonath, and others. RNA was first identified as a nucleic acid distinct from DNA by Levene in the course of his seminal studies of the nucleic acids in the early part of the twentieth century. The concept of messenger RNA (mRNA) as an information-bearing DNA-to-ribosome intermediary in protein synthesis was first formulated by Jacob and Jacques Monod+ in 1961 and subsequently verified in experiments conducted by Brenner, Jacob, Meselson, and Spiegelman. The surprising catalytic properties of RNA were independently discovered by Altman and by Thomas Cech, supporting the concept of a pre-biotic "RNA world," first proposed in 1963 by Rich and, independently a few years later, by Orgel and others. Definitive x-ray diffraction studies of RNA structure were first carried out independently by Klug and by Rich. Rich co-discovered double helical RNA and went on to discover the more general process of nucleic acid hybridization, whose further development would "become the technical foundation of modern molecular biology." Nucleic acid hybridization lies at the heart of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), which has revolutionized molecular biological research practice. Double helical RNA has recently been found to play a role in the control of gene expression in a process called RNA interference (RNAi), which was co-discovered by Fire. Another RNA control process regulating gene expression that involves very short, single-stranded RNA molecules called microRNA (miRNA) was co-discovered by Ruvkun. In recent years, sophisticated x-ray crystallographic analyses using synchrotron radiation sources were developed and employed by Kornberg to elucidate the structural dynamics of RNA-polymerase-directed DNA-to-mRNA transcription. Cryo-crystallographic and synchrotron radiation techniques were also developed and used by Ada Yonath to elucidate the structural dynamics of the process of translation, i.e., ribosomal protein synthesis, which involves mRNA, rRNA (ribosomal RNA), and tRNA (transfer RNA). These studies have revealed the ribosome to be, in fact, a very complex ribozyme (RNA enzyme). Jacob, Brenner, Altman, Klug, Fire, Kornberg, and Yonath were all awarded Nobel Prizes. Rich received the US National Medal of Science in 1995. 
The co-invention of gene splicing by Stanley N. Cohen. Cohen and Herbert Boyer's+ invention opened up the new field of genetic engineering. Cohen and Boyer+ were recipients of both the US National Medal of Science and the US National Medal of Technology. The latter award cited them "for their fundamental discovery of gene splicing techniques allowing replication in quantity of biomedically important new products, and beneficially transformed plant materials. This discovery of recombinant DNA technology has transformed the basic science of molecular biology and the biotechnology industry." Other major contributors to genetic engineering include Paul Berg, Walter Gilbert, and Daniel Nathans, all of whom received Nobel Prizes for their work. 

The discovery of nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) by I. I. Rabi. Rabi received the 1944 Nobel Prize in physics for the demonstration of NMR in molecular beams. Felix Bloch shared the 1952 Nobel Prize in physics with Edward Purcell+ for their independent inventions of condensed matter NMR spectroscopy, which is important in biomolecular structure studies, as well as being the basis of the MRI diagnostic imaging technique. 

The invention of the sonogram by Robert Rines. 

The invention of the flexible endoscope by Basil Hirschowitz, which has revolutionized surgery by greatly reducing the complexity and invasiveness of many surgical procedures. (This work, undertaken in the mid-1950s, led to the production of the first glass-clad optical fibers, which later revolutionized modern telecommunications.) 

The co-invention of LASIK eye surgery by Samuel Blum (together with Rangaswamy Srinivasan and James Wynne). 

The invention of phacoemulsification cataract surgery by Charles Kelman, which is the technique most widely used for cataract removal worldwide. (More than one hundred million such operations have been performed.) It has revolutionized the procedure by completely eliminating the need for hospitalization, which had previously averaged one week. Intraocular lens implantation, a regular adjunct to this surgery, was also pioneered by Kelman. Kelman was a recipient of both the US National Medal of Technology in 1992 and the Lasker Award for Clinical Medical Research in 2004 (posthumously). 

The invention of the cardiac defibrillator, external pacemaker, and cardiac monitor by Paul Zoll. Zoll (and, independently, Wilson Greatbatch ) later invented the implantable cardiac pacemaker. Michel Mirowski and Morton Mower were two of the four inventors of the automatic, implantable cardiac defibrillator. 

The invention of the Heimlich Maneuver by Henry Heimlich

The co-invention of the basic technique used worldwide for the controlled chlorination of drinking water supplies by Abel Wolman. Wolman and Linn Enslow's invention resulted in a dramatic reduction in the incidence of such waterborne diseases as cholera, dysentery, and typhoid fever; as such, it was arguably the single most important contribution to public health in the twentieth century. Wolman received both the Lasker Award for Public Service in 1960 and the US National Medal of Science in 1974. The Abel Wolman Municipal Building, one of the largest buildings in Baltimore, MD (where he taught at Johns Hopkins), was named in his honor


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > yea yea yea.. go learn some english, ya fucking jew.
> ...



That's nice but what that have to do with Israel's crimes?


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## Marc39 (Jan 21, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Retard, Israel has committed no crimes.

It's a crime you're so fucking dumb.


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## José (Jan 22, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Coyote*
> I don't disagree with the comparisons you draw to Apartheid South Africa, but neither one is a dictatorship.



Just quote where I said Israel is a dictatorship instead of a *RACIAL* dictatorship (synonym for ethnocracy).

Just quote where I said Israel has a dictator who denies political rights to all Jews and Arabs alike (dictatorship) instead of an artificial jewish "majority" created by the state of Israel itself and whose political representatives suppress the political rights of millions of palestinians (*RACIAL* dictatorship). 

The only one here insisting on conflating the two terms is you... Probably because you realized what I'm saying makes a lot of sense.


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## José (Jan 22, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Coyote*
> Yes. At one time women couldn't vote in this country. They were not granted suffrage. Was that right? Hell no. People under the age of 18 can't vote. Does that mean we're not a democracy? No. *There are different kinds of democracies.*





> Originally posted by *Coyote*
> Close, but not exactly the same. *"Functioning democracy"* is not the same as *"perfect democracy"* is not the same as "dictatorship". I don't disagree with the comparisons you draw to Apartheid South Africa, but neither one is a dictatorship.



Ethnocracies are generally considered to be *non-democratic* in nature.

Ethnocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I argue that the Israeli polity *is governed not by a democratic regime*, but rather by an "ethnocracy," which denotes a *non-democratic* rule for and by a dominant ethnic group, within the state and beyond its borders.

Middle East Report 207: Democracy or Ethnocracy: Territory and Settler Politics in Israel/Palestine Oren Yiftachel


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

Kalam said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



No, I deny anyone who maintains that has a clue as to what they're talking about.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

José;1931162 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Coyote*
> > I don't disagree with the comparisons you draw to Apartheid South Africa, but neither one is a dictatorship.
> 
> 
> ...



What race are Israelis?


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## José (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> José;1931162 said:
> 
> 
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> ...



The two main groups are:

Jews (dominant ethnic group, the "official" ethnicity of the ethnocratic Israeli state)

Token palestinian arabs (subjugated ethnic group, the "unofficial" ethnicity of the jewish racial dictatorship).


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

José;1931378 said:
			
		

> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > José;1931162 said:
> ...



Unfortunately, Jews aren't a race.
Nice try, but your stupidity and ignorance have been exposed.


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

José;1931378 said:
			
		

> Token palestinian arabs (subjugated ethnic group, the "unofficial" ethnicity of the jewish racial dictatorship).



Palestinian is not an ethnicity.  

Furthermore, there is no historical record of Palestinians.  They are merely Arab bedouin peasants.


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## José (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> José;1931378 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's exactly why I used the word "ethnicity" and "ethnic" instead of race.

Alright Rabbi... I plead guilty to wrongly using the word *RACIAL* in the expression "jewish racial dictatorship" where I should use *ETHNIC* since Jews are an ethnicity, a people and not a race.

But who really cares?

*JEWISH RACIAL DICTATORSHIP

JEWISH ETHNIC DICTATORSHIP

JEWISH WHATEVER DICTATORSHIP

ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC...*

It's technically wrong to say *RACIAL* but I'm sure you and everybody get the gist so stop spliting hairs for heaven's sake!!!!


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## José (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> José;1931378 said:
> 
> 
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So true, Marc.

Palestinian is not an ethnicity, it's a national identity.

They say it's real, Zionists say it was forged by the arab countries.

An excellent topic for a separate thread : )


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2010)

José;1931469 said:
			
		

> Marc39 said:
> 
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> > José;1931378 said:
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I thought it was.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/99192-palestinian-people.html


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> José;1931378 said:
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> 
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which is why the LAW OF RETURN applies to atheist jews and, lord fucking knows, your kind want your little princesses to marry goyim about as much as a white father wants his daughter to bring home a black man anywhere earlier than 1980.







[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKAz0a77Fm0]YouTube - Jewish Girl Prank Calls Her Parents[/ame]


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

elvis3577 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
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Thanks for the clarification!


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
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All this brilliance and someone cannot answer one simple question.

"Is that why some of the staunchest supporters of Palestine are Christians and some are even Jews?"


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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Dummy, Israel IS Palestine.

You're soooo dumb.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

José;1931457 said:
			
		

> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > José;1931378 said:
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WHat ethnicity are Jews?


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> José;1931457 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Judaism is a religion composed of people who have high moral values including peace and justice. They have contributed greatly to our world.

Israel is an imperialist, colonial enterprise that only uses Jews for its own benefit.


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel is an imperialist, colonial enterprise that only uses Jews for its own benefit.



Dummy, you don't even know what imperialism is.  

The Middle East is 99.9% Islamic, 9,000,000 sq. mi.

Israel is just 0.1% of the landmass in the Middle East, merely 8,000 sq. mi.

You out-dummied yourself, dummy.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is an imperialist, colonial enterprise that only uses Jews for its own benefit.
> ...



Relevance?


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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Brainless, the relevance is obvious to anyone with 5 working brain cells.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Marc39 said:
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Then you would be the perfect person to explain it.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > Marc39 said:
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PF Tinmore, Jose, SunniMan, Kalam, etc etc don't have 5 working brain cells between them.  It's a lost cause.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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Here, yet again, you are putting your ignorance on parade.  I'm not arguing that the Jews as a group, haven't contributed yet you are summing up the totality of Islamic contributions to modern day sciences and life with the bassackwards dumbass remark like "Islam has been a miserably failed ideology".  Do you think these wonderful achievements you cite were created in a vacuum?  Do you think the isolation of cortizone popped up out of thin air in 1950?  Are you really so stupid (or is the word closed minded) that you are incapable of understanding that scientific achievements and modern inventions are built upon hundreds of preceding breakthroughs that allowed each item to come into fruition?  Ever seen the series "Connections"?  I hope you are not so closed-minded that you can not give credit where credit is due.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

Congratulations for the most idiotic post of the day.  Granted the day is still young but I have hopes.
The Islamic world's last major contribution to humanity happened about 500 years ago.  Unless you want to say that suicide bombers are an advance.


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## GHook93 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > the pals were already offered that at Oslo. Arafat told them to piss off.
> ...



Grumpy, pick up a history book. First offer, all of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank, taking on some so-called refugees and just compensation for the rest. Second offer, all of Gaza, bumped up to 98% of West Bank, *East Jerusalem* and ditto on so-called refugees.

Sorry but the Palestinians we the arrogant parties their. Arafat didn't even put it up to a vote.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

José;1931162 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Coyote*
> > I don't disagree with the comparisons you draw to Apartheid South Africa, but neither one is a dictatorship.
> 
> 
> ...



No.  I just happen to know what a "dictatorship" means and what the key terms are and I know what "democracy" means.  You're the one trying to draw parallels between "ethnocracy" and "dictatorship" that don't necessarily exist.

A "racial" dictatorship still has to fulfill the definition of dictatorship and it's not in either Israel or South Africa.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

José;1931169 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Coyote*
> > Yes. At one time women couldn't vote in this country. They were not granted suffrage. Was that right? Hell no. People under the age of 18 can't vote. Does that mean we're not a democracy? No. *There are different kinds of democracies.*
> 
> 
> ...



I notice that the Wikipedia entry states: T_his article may contain original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding references. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed. More details may be available on the talk page. (November 2009)_ 

That may make it problematic as a reference.

However, since you use it, I will point out that it states:



> The other side of the coin might well be a system of full-fletched democracy (inclusive and competitive in Robert Dahl's terminology) for the privileged population, making up what Pierre van den Berghe (1981) calls "Herrenvolk democracy" (with reference to apartheid South Africa). This is a system of ethnocracy which offers democratic participation to the dominant group only.






> I argue that the Israeli polity *is governed not by a democratic regime*, but rather by an "ethnocracy," which denotes a *non-democratic* rule for and by a dominant ethnic group, within the state and beyond its borders.
> 
> Middle East Report 207: Democracy or Ethnocracy: Territory and Settler Politics in Israel/Palestine Oren Yiftachel



I would argue, based on the above from Wiki that it is both an ethnocracy and a democratic regime. 

But,l will agree that your argument here make a bit more sense and goes into a grey area for Israel by asking questions:
How can a country be a democracy when it has de facto control over territories that have say in that control.  
How can a country be a democracy when different ethnic groups have different sets of rights in terms of citizenship, land ownership, schooling, building permits and the ability to expand their villages, etc etc.

The answer is - it CAN be a democracy, and is - it's just not what we think of and what we (the west) strive for - a society that is free, open, with equal rights for all groups.



That doesn't make it a dictatorship though because even a "racial" dictatorship still has to be a dictatorship.


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The Islamic world is a decayed society.  Islam has proven itself a failed, fascist, repressive ideology.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> José;1931162 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Good point. * Most Israeli's and Arabs are the same "race" - semitic.

Ethnocracy fits the bill, but not racial dictatorship since it's neither racial nor a dictatorship.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
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Page 7, Paragraph 2, Lines 8 and 9 of_ Islam for Dummies.
_


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> José;1931378 said:
> 
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A distinction that is utterly worthless I might add since they were and are the inhabitants of the Palestinian region.

There is no historical record of of ANY group when you come down to it.  People move and migrate into new areas and assume new names.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Dummy, Israel IS Palestine.
> 
> You're soooo dumb.



In that case it needs to enfranchise ALL of it's citizens.


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## jillian (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Dummy, Israel IS Palestine.
> ...



It does. 

Palestinians aren't citizens. Israeli Arabs have all rights of citizenship except they get to decline military service.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Congratulations for the most idiotic post of the day.  Granted the day is still young but I have hopes.
> The Islamic world's last major contribution to humanity happened about 500 years ago.  Unless you want to say that suicide bombers are an advance.



Another close minded idiot who think all major advances come into being out of a vacuum.  Maybe it's just the vacuum in your head.

You win the Tinkerbell prize.  Just say "I believe in..."


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Dummy, Israel IS Palestine.
> ...



All Israeli citizens are, dummy.


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Dummy, Israel IS Palestine.
> ...



HA!

yea right.  I've long said that every jew who speaks up in this thread would scream bloody fucking murder if they were marginalized here in the US like they enable segregation in israel.  You'd sooner see yourself called a jeew hating antisemite before ANY of these fools opts for ethnic equality on par with what they ironically enjoy here in an ACTUAL western democracy.

don't forget, these zionist pieces of shit are clear when they say they want a JEWISH israel.  If the klan thought of this zionist logic first Alabama would still have all white colleges.


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

jillian said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



law of return says what?   Maybe you can find some demographics to manipulate today, Jillybean.. maybe parade around some birth and death rates or something.


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



dont you have some she-bears to run from before your father takes you up on the hill to kill you in the name of god, little chosen boy?


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> dont you have some she-bears to run from before your father takes you up on the hill to kill you in the name of god, little chosen boy?



Jews are the Chosen People.

Muslims are the Chosen Losers who follow the Pedophile Prophet


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## jillian (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> law of return says what?   Maybe you can find some demographics to manipulate today, Jillybean.. maybe parade around some birth and death rates or something.



I don't have to.

I want my famiy's land back in Belarus honey. How far do you think I'd get lobbing bombs from the border?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

And ultimately it doesn't matter. There will never be a "right of return" because a "right of return" would mean no israel. people don't engage in self-immolation if they're sane. and jews will never live subservient to  or be killed by palestinians in israrel.

we've talked about this before. you're not listening.


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## jillian (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > dont you have some she-bears to run from before your father takes you up on the hill to kill you in the name of god, little chosen boy?
> ...



and that proves what?

that you can be as absurd as him?

i hate when people make us look bad.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > José;1931162 said:
> ...



What ethnicity are Israelis?


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Islamic science and how it contributed to modern science:  Welcome to The Fountain Magazine | Modern Science's Debt to Islamic Civilization

Yet, it is true that modern Islamic countries lag far behind in scientific research - why is that?  Here is one opinon:


> "We don't live in an environment where we value science," says Heggy, a Muslim astronomer who left his native Libya and is working in Houston on NASA's Mars exploration program. "Science and intellectual presence have been seen as a real threat to governments that have no serious plans for democratic rule."
> 
> Why the dearth of scientific achievement in the modern Muslim world? Like Heggy, many critics blame authoritarian regimes that stifle independent thinking and limit contacts with the outside world. Most schools and universities in Muslim countries emphasize rote learning over debate and analysis. Defense budgets -- especially in the bellicose Middle East -- consume billions of dollars that might otherwise go to research.
> 
> ...



Fundamentalism is the antithesis of science in any religion.


The same source also lists some modern achievements:

Abdus Salam: Pakistani. Winner of Nobel Prize in Physics in 1979
Ahmed Zewail: Egyptian. Winner of Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1999
Farouk El-Baz: Egyptian. NASA scientist involved in the Apollo moon program
Essam Heggy: Egyptian-Libyan. Planetary scientist in NASA's Mars exploration program
Lotfi Asker Zadeh: Iranian. Mathematician and computer scientist, founder of fuzzy logic, which recognizes more than simple true-or-false values. Used in artificial intelligence applications and some spell-checkers to suggest replacements for misspelled words
Habiba Bouhamed Chaabouni: Tunisian. Medical geneticist, winner of 2006 UNESCO Women in Science Award


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > law of return says what?   Maybe you can find some demographics to manipulate today, Jillybean.. maybe parade around some birth and death rates or something.
> ...



every time you bring up belarus I can't help but think of their THRIVING JEWISH POPULATION.  

http://www.haruth.com/JewBelarus.html


Maybe instead of crying to me about it you move back there and enjoy the same status as the rest of the goyim there...  but, that doesn't have as much zionist capital, does it?


and, in a nutshell, you've admitted that it's the JEWS that make israel a nation.  Which, again, is why it's a shame that you fall for such ethnicentric racism for the sake of your own identity. 

You must not have any problem understanding and empathizing with blond haired germans able to disregard jews for the sake of their fatherland and culture, eh Jill?  if it's the JEWS that make israel then you can't really be mad at Aryans who felt the same way about germanic lands, RIGHT JILL?



now, make more excuses for racism, daffodil.. there is a spoonful of Irony that the American South wants to taste as soon as the words fall out of your mouth.


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

jillian said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...


*
HOLY SHIT!*


Someone mark this day on the calendar.. Jillian just attempted some fucking consistency in the face of racist jews.


I bet this means she wants to see dead jews floating in the sea....  I bet.


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## jillian (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> now, make more excuses for racism, daffodil.. there is a spoonful of Irony that the American South wants to taste as soon as the words fall out of your mouth.



ah honey... i'm not racist. i speak truth. there may be solutions to the mid-east thing, but they're not going to include any jews living or dying under palestinian rule. live it, learn it, love it. because THAT is reality. and you can hate the fact that there's one tiny little jewish state or not. makes me no nevermind.

and as for belarus. there may be a jewish population there now, but I WANT MY GREAT GRANDFATHER'S HOUSE AND PROPERTY THAT THEY TOOK.

Understanding now?


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## jillian (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Someone mark this day on the calendar.. Jillian just attempted some fucking consistency in the face of racist jews.
> 
> 
> I bet this means she wants to see dead jews floating in the sea....  I bet.



now ask me again why i don't criticize my own... 

because losers like to use that against them/us.

won't happen again.


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > now, make more excuses for racism, daffodil.. there is a spoonful of Irony that the American South wants to taste as soon as the words fall out of your mouth.
> ...



"i'm not racist, I speak the truth"

yea, I wonder how many klanmen ever uttered THAT phrase..




and the rest.. hey, if the south still wants to rise again I guess it's no shocker that you think that the idea of jews sharing equality with non-jews is such a fucking nightmare.  Again, see the klansmen's reaction to letting blacks vote and hold office.  

and, as far as belerus, no pali is asking for old borders IF IT IS ONE NATION WHERE CITIZENS ARE TREATED EQUALLY INSTEAD OF MARGINALIZED BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JEWISH ENOUGH TO COUNT.  Similarly, if you go back to belarus you'd get to play by the same rules as goyim..  Indeed, no one is stopping you from enjoying equality there.   but, again, THAT doesn't have as much zionist capital, does it?


sad, Jillian.  You are like a hero corrupted by her own ethnic racism.  a proverbial jewish Robert E. Lee, if you will.


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Someone mark this day on the calendar.. Jillian just attempted some fucking consistency in the face of racist jews.
> ...



what you should be asking is why it takes coddling from me to keep you consistent.  Your reaction should not be for my benefit but for YOUR own ability to rise beyond the kind of racism chosen boy swims in.

but, use whatever excuse you need to, darling.  if it weren't so fucking blue moon rare that you DARE to talk against racist jews I would never have to post comments like that and YOU wouldn't be so sensitive about it.


think about it while you are pouting.


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



Islamists are the racists.  Islam is a racist ideology.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



If you talk about Israel as a whole - you have a variety of ethnic groups living there but among those given Israeli citizenship you have:
76.4 % Jewish
 23.6%  non-Jewish (mostly Arab) 
(according to the CIA Factbook in 2004)


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## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



...says little chosen boy who is CONVINCED that jews are the apex of humanity...


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

jillian said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



I will amend it then - it needs to make all of it's inhabitents citizens - if you're talking about all of "Palestine" you can not control areas with large numbers of people who are stateless and citizenless and rightless without serious repercussions and continuous violence.  A state grants legitimacy and forces resonsibility on the Palestinians for controling the extremists amongst them.

Also, I disagree with you on all rights of citizenship.  Non-Jewish citizens do not have the same rights of family reunification through imnmigration nor rights to buy land held by the Jewish Trust (I think that is what it is called) which amounts to a considerable area.  Nor do they have the same rights to permits to expand their villages or build new settlements - a defacto policy which leadds overcrowding, over-use of limited resources and poverty.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



Chapter 2, Paragraph 1, Lines 6 of Islam for Dummies (subsection on Israel)


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Um, "Jewish" is not an ethnicity.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Chapter 1, 2, 3....thru to the end: Page 1, Paragraph 1, Line 1 of  Islam for Dummies.

You are way too predictable.  When are you going to update your talking points?


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...




Maybe she's just being a reasonable person who gets sick and tired of morons....of all flavors?


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## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Chapter 1, 2, 3....thru to the end: Page 1, Paragraph 1, Line 1 of  Islam for Dummies.
> 
> You are way too predictable.  When are you going to update your talking points?



The Quran is way too predictably racist, dummy.
Qur'an 59:14 


> The Jews are devoid of sense. There is a grievous punishment awaiting them. Satan tells them not to believe so they will end up in Hell.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



Um, yes "Jewish" can be.

_"...Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion,[9] and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered,..."_


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Chapter 1, 2, 3....thru to the end: Page 1, Paragraph 1, Line 1 of  Islam for Dummies.
> ...



Qur'an 59:14 is:  [59:14] They do not get together to fight you unless they are in well-shielded buildings, or behind walls. Their might appears formidable among themselves. You would think that they are united, when in fact their hearts are divided. This is because they are people who do not understand.


You must have been referring to the Racist Book of Marc (for Dummies)


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

I think it might be time to add "Israel for Dummies" to the thread library along side "Islam for Dummies".

You think?


----------



## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



perhaps you need to stick around a bit longer before you make silly fucking milquetoast observations about behaviors that predate your membership at USMB..

just a thought.


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## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



You had a thought - what a unique experience


----------



## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



certainly more common than the your observations' offer of clarity...


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## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



No, it really isn't.  You need to learn how to read.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



According to what?  Because you say so?

Definition of Ethnic Group: An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2] This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness.[3] [4]

Exactly how is Jewish *not* an ethnicity?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Clarity?  Never claimed that.

But after a while all the "Jewboy" "racist Islam" "Sand ******" comments get old and take a long time to decompose.  Begins to resemble a schoolyard.


----------



## The Rabbi (Jan 22, 2010)

Jeezus are you stupid and/or ignorant.

You tell me how an Amharic speaking Ethiopian, an Arabic speaking Iraqi, a Russian speaking member of the FSU, an English speaking American, and a Hebrew speaking Israeli all share the same ethnicity.


----------



## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



you certainly do seem to think that your insight regarding Jillian's selective response to jewish racism is more clarifying than it isn't.

And, perhaps you'd know something about the "long time" this discussion has been going on, and she's conveyed the exact pattern I pointed out, if, again, you had a bit more tenure around here than you have ignorant fucking observations.


----------



## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Jeezus are you stupid and/or ignorant.
> 
> You tell me how an Amharic speaking Ethiopian, an Arabic speaking Iraqi, a Russian speaking member of the FSU, an English speaking American, and a Hebrew speaking Israeli all share the same ethnicity.



right after you let us know why it's so important for born jews to be more acceptable than converted jews under the law of return.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...




Nope.  All I know is what what's on this thread.  So that is what I comment on.  If you two have a long standing history, go at it.  I've plenty of popcorn


----------



## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Jeezus are you stupid and/or ignorant.
> 
> You tell me how an Amharic speaking Ethiopian, an Arabic speaking Iraqi, a Russian speaking member of the FSU, an English speaking American, and a Hebrew speaking Israeli all share the same ethnicity.



Your inability to read even a rudimentary definition is astounding considering I set the bar for you very low to begin with.

What part of...

An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2] *This shared heritage may be based* upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, *religion*, language, shared territory, nationality *or *physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group *are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness*


do you not understand?


----------



## Shogun (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



the bolded is exactly my point.  You can go ahead and sit the fuck down now.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



Nope.


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Shogun said:


> right after you let us know why it's so important for born jews to be more acceptable than converted jews under the law of return.



Israel's right of return is the most pressing issue on your pea-sized brain?


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> You must have been referring to the Racist Book of Marc (for Dummies)



You wrote the book on dhummitude.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 22, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You must have been referring to the Racist Book of Marc (for Dummies)
> ...



Analysis of debate with Marc:

Sources: zero
Facts: zero
Presentation: poor
Linguistic abilities: zero
Powers of persuasion: humerous
Creativity and analytical skills: marginal
Over-reliance on unsupported concepts (dummy, peabrain etc): high

Conclusion:







[/IMG]


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 22, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



You failing me is like the Elephant Man failing Catherine Zeta Jones.

Thus, you fail, dummy.


----------



## José (Jan 23, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Coyote*
> How can a country be a democracy when it has de facto control over territories that have say in that control.
> How can a country be a democracy when different ethnic groups have different sets of rights in terms of citizenship, land ownership, schooling, building permits and the ability to expand their villages, etc etc.
> 
> The answer is - it CAN be a democracy, and is - it's just not what we think of and what we (the west) strive for - a society that is free, open, with equal rights for all groups.



Nope. The right answer is:

The ancient city-state of Athens, the United States pre-1960's, Nazi Germany, South Africa under Apartheid and the state of Israel did/does not meet the definition of the democratic state formulated by political science which includes all the points you cited among others.

Contrary to popular belief, all those states cited above were/is ethnocratic states based on the *AUTHORITARIAN*, *DICTATORIAL* political supression of the undesired ethnicity.

Pay attention to this definition of dictatorship:

*Dictatorship is a form of government that has the power to govern without consent of those being governed.*

Notice that the definition does not apply *ONLY* to those states that exclude the totality of its population from the electoral process.

Whether the whole population or just a specific ethnic group is subjected to political disenfranchisement is *IRRELEVANT* to the authoritarian, dictatorial nature of the state.

The jewish racial dictatorship governs and controls Western and Eastern Palestine respectively against the wishes of virtually all Palestinians both Israeli citizens (who repeatedly call for the creation of a unitary democratic state comprising the entire region of Palestine) and those living in the territories and around the world.

So Israel fits the definition above to a tee.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2010)

José;1934983 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Coyote*
> > How can a country be a democracy when it has de facto control over territories that have say in that control.
> > How can a country be a democracy when different ethnic groups have different sets of rights in terms of citizenship, land ownership, schooling, building permits and the ability to expand their villages, etc etc.
> >
> ...



Ohh Look another post by one of the board anti-semites.


----------



## José (Jan 23, 2010)

> Originally posted by *RetiredGySgt*
> Ohh Look another post by one of the board anti-semites.



RetiredGySgt's musings on Israel:

"*If I was an Israeli Jew I would have to travel abroad to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
But since I am a brainless bot who would passionately support Nazi Germany in a heartbeat if it happened to be a US ally in WWII I will look the other way and willfully ignore the israeli intitutionalized racism against the native people of Palestine.*"

*No family.  Please read the rules.  Gunny*


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2010)

José;1935015 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *RetiredGySgt*
> > Ohh Look another post by one of the board anti-semites.
> 
> 
> ...



That is a no no dumb ass, no bringing family into discussions.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 23, 2010)

José;1934983 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Coyote*
> > How can a country be a democracy when it has de facto control over territories that have say in that control.
> > How can a country be a democracy when different ethnic groups have different sets of rights in terms of citizenship, land ownership, schooling, building permits and the ability to expand their villages, etc etc.
> >
> ...



Sometimes what may look like a democracy is a dictatorship. If we look at Haiti, for example, we will see a country whose president was taken out of his country on a US plane at the point of a gun. Then they had an "election" for the people to vote in a new leader.

OK, so they are going to democratically elect a new leader. The problem is that the president's party, Lavalas, that would win hands down was banned from running by our interim government. Could you call that a democracy?


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> José;1934983 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Moron, the Haiti situation was made by a despot with an armed mob to support him. Of course his party would win because his party had the ability to terrorize most everyone to elect him.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 23, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > José;1934983 said:
> ...



Gee, that is not what I heard. What is your source?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Ohh so we did not need to send in peacekeeping forces did we? All those troops went to Haiti for a vacation? We tried an Army Lt for deserting his post cause he went to a police Station to save a kid cause he was a despot himself? We kicked the Marines out of Peacekeeping cause they got into to many fights with peace loving armed police?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 23, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Ahhh??? What is your source?


----------



## José (Jan 23, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *RetiredGySgt*
> That is a no no dumb ass, no bringing family into discussions.



Damn... It's not like I said something terribly gross or confidential about your wife.

Lighten up a bit before you explode, Sarge : )


----------



## José (Jan 23, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *P F Tinmore*
> Sometimes what may look like a democracy is a dictatorship. If we look at Haiti, for example, we will see a country whose president was taken out of his country on a US plane at the point of a gun. Then they had an "election" for the people to vote in a new leader.
> 
> OK, so they are going to democratically elect a new leader. The problem is that the president's party, Lavalas, that would win hands down was banned from running by our interim government. Could you call that a democracy?



The real problem, Tinmore, is that people are totally obsessed with "elections" to the point of equating them with democracy itself instead of an element of that political system. This leads to absurd conclusions like the ones we are seeing here:

South Africa and Israel, whose elections excluded more than 70% and 50% of all the people legitimately entitled to be South African and Israeli citizens can be called democratic states.

States that herd its undesirable population in ethnic enclaves denying them any kind of political participation suddenly become beacons of democracy when you accept the formula *PERIODIC ELECTIONS = DEMOCRACY*.

These are some of the insane conclusions you innevitably arrive at when you equate the entire democratic state with the holding of periodic elections.

The truth of the matter is that Israel lack one of the  fundamental elements of the democratic state, *equality before the law*, without which truly democratic political representation cannot exist regardless of any electoral process.


----------



## José (Jan 23, 2010)

The situation you described in Haiti reminded me of the banning of two israeli arab political parties on the grounds they "questioned the jewish character of the state of Israel".

The decision was later overturned by Israel's Supreme Court but only because palestinian political parties do not represent any serious threat to the "jewish character" of Israel.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2010)

Haiti and the US peace keeping.

Haiti poeacekeeping 1994


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 23, 2010)

José;1935129 said:
			
		

> The situation you described in Haiti reminded me of the banning of two israeli arab political parties on the grounds they "questioned the jewish character of the state of Israel".
> 
> The decision was later overturned by Israel's Supreme Court but only because palestinian political parties do not represent any serious threat to the "jewish character" of Israel.



How many Arab and Muslim countries have Jewish political parties or even have Jews in their governments?  Where can we find you protesting that situation, dummy?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 23, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> José;1935129 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Palestine has one appointed and Iran has one (maybe two) elected. There is one Jewish town in Palestine and their local officials are probably Jews.


----------



## CMike (Jan 23, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > José;1935129 said:
> ...



Palestine doesn't exist so that's impossible.


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 23, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestine has one appointed and Iran has one (maybe two) elected. *There is one Jewish town in Palestine* and their local officials are probably Jews.



Um, there is one Jewish state in Palestine, retard.  Palestine is not a country, moron.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 23, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Palestine has one appointed and Iran has one (maybe two) elected. *There is one Jewish town in Palestine* and their local officials are probably Jews.
> ...



....and Israel wasn't a country before 1948 retard.  Why do you keep bringing up the tired old argument that "Palestine" doesn't exist?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 23, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> José;1935129 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet another senseless point:  because "they" are worse, that means it's ok for us to be "almost as bad".


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 23, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Yet another senseless point:  because "they" are worse, that means it's ok for us to be "almost as bad".



"They" are far worse, so, get your ass in gear and start fighting for reform in the backward, fascist and racist Arab Muslim shithole countries.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 23, 2010)

José;1935128 said:
			
		

> > Originally Posted by *P F Tinmore*
> > Sometimes what may look like a democracy is a dictatorship. If we look at Haiti, for example, we will see a country whose president was taken out of his country on a US plane at the point of a gun. Then they had an "election" for the people to vote in a new leader.
> >
> > OK, so they are going to democratically elect a new leader. The problem is that the president's party, Lavalas, that would win hands down was banned from running by our interim government. Could you call that a democracy?
> ...



I totally agree.  Elections are the END result of a democratic system.  In order for democracy (as we desire it) to work you have certain institutions in place.  You have to have a certain educational level among enough of the population, an independent judiciary, a way to control corruption, violence and intimidation,  the ability to hold the government accountable, a free press and a constitution that protects the rights of minority populations.  If you don't have that voting alone is meaningless.



> This leads to absurd conclusions like the ones we are seeing here:
> 
> South Africa and Israel, whose elections excluded more than 70% and 50% of all the people legitimately entitled to be South African and Israeli citizens can be called democratic states.



They are still democratic - democracy doesn't have to have to recognize all inhabitants as "citizens".



> States that herd its undesirable population in ethnic enclaves denying them any kind of political participation suddenly become beacons of democracy when you accept the formula *PERIODIC ELECTIONS = DEMOCRACY*.
> 
> These are some of the insane conclusions you innevitably arrive at when you equate the entire democratic state with the holding of periodic elections.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that Israel lack one of the  fundamental elements of the democratic state, *equality before the law*, without which truly democratic political representation cannot exist regardless of any electoral process.



While that is definately the ideal- democracy does not have to have that to be a democratic form of government.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 23, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Yet another senseless point:  because "they" are worse, that means it's ok for us to be "almost as bad".
> ...




Ok.  Let's see....

State A:  Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....

State B:  is worse so that magically means State A is just fine and we should ignore anything they do. 

Surely that means that the pedophile who raped his daughter should be ignored becuase, after all he didn't kill her so spend your time and energy tracking down real killers.


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 23, 2010)

Coyote said:


> State A:  Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....
> 
> State B:  is worse so that magically means State A is just fine and we should ignore anything they do.
> 
> Surely that means that the pedophile who raped his daughter should be ignored becuase, after all he didn't kill her so spend your time and energy tracking down real killers.



The internet chat room dummy is clueless that Israel has no legal or moral obligations 
vis-s-vis his inane comment about "disenfranchised, stateless non-citizens under its control".  The dummy thinks he's impressing others by weighing in on the Middle East, but, the dummy really has no idea what the fuck he's even talking about.  

Dummy, maybe, you ought to post elsewhere about other topics, such as knitting or girl's volleyball.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 23, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > State A:  Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....
> ...



Yes.   You really ought to.

Lets recap a bit shall we?

Marc makes claims.
Marc refuses to back up claims with facts or sources.
Marc obfuscates when confronted by his deficiencies.
Marc resorts to ad hominum arguments.









Conclusion: Marc is dummy.


----------



## The Rabbi (Jan 23, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Jeezus are you stupid and/or ignorant.
> ...


I dont understand why I continue to respond to an obvious mental midget.
When you make a definition that broad you include virtually everybody in some kind of "ethnic" group or other.  So on that basis, Lutherans constitute an ethnic group.  Members of a condo association constitute an ethnic group.  Virtually any group that shares any characteristic that distinguishes it from other people would constitute an ethnic group.
What a fucking loser.


----------



## CMike (Jan 23, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



State B doesn't exist.

The so called disenfranchised people 

1) don't accept Israel's right to exist

2) refuse to even go to the negotiating table

3) try to blow up as many Israeli civilians as possible.

They are entitled to nothing.


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## Marc39 (Jan 23, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Sucks to have me burst your little bubble here trying to fake knowing what you're talking about.


----------



## José (Jan 24, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Coyote*
> I totally agree. Elections are the END result of a democratic system. In order for democracy (as we desire it) to work you have certain institutions in place. You have to have a certain educational level among enough of the population, an independent judiciary, a way to control corruption, violence and intimidation, the ability to hold the government accountable, a free press and a constitution that protects the rights of minority populations. If you don't have that voting alone is meaningless.
> 
> They are still democratic - democracy doesn't have to have to recognize all inhabitants as "citizens".
> ...



Ok then Coyote....

It seems to me our debate on what kind of state Israel should be included is for the most part a debate about names.

The "meat" of this whole issue is the fact that in South Africa and Israel we had/have millions of individuals elligible to become citizens of those states who are kept as politically disenfranchised as any citizen of North Korea by authoritarian legislation approved by the Israeli legislative branch, uphold by the Judiciary and enforced by the Executive through brute force.

Since we both agree on these "hard facts" I think we should all be free to call Israel whatever we want to call it.

Whether we prefer to call it a "flawed" democracy, an ethnocracy or a jewish racial dictatorship is just a matter of denomination, a matter of labels, not substance. : )


----------



## José (Jan 24, 2010)

And now the much-missed Bee Gees younger brother jumps into the debate to tell us we shouldn't worry too much about how to properly label Israel.


----------



## José (Jan 24, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J7LkZDE6tI]YouTube - Andy Gibb - Words[/ame]

*(IT'S ONLY) WORDS*​
Smile an everlasting smile
a smile can bring you near to me
Don't ever let me find you gone
cause that would bring a tear to me
And This world has lost its glory
let's start a brand new story now, my love
Cuz right now, there'll be no other time 
And I can show you how, MY LOVE

Talk in everlasting words
and dedicate them all to me
And I will give you all my life 
I'm here if you should call to me
You think that I don't even mean 
a single word I say

*It's only words*
and words are all I have 
to take your heart away

I want you to sing with me, come on

da da da da da da da
da da da da da da da da da da
da da da da da da da
da da da da da da da da da da

You think that I don't even mean
a single word I say

*It's only words*
and words are all I have
to take your heart away

*It's only words*
and words are all I have
to take your heart

*It's only words*
and words are all I have
to take your heart away


----------



## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

José;1937322 said:
			
		

> > Whether we prefer to call it a "flawed" democracy, an ethnocracy or a jewish racial dictatorship is just a matter of denomination, a matter of labels, not substance. : )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> I dont understand why I continue to respond to an obvious mental midget.
> When you make a definition that broad you include virtually everybody in some kind of "ethnic" group or other.  So on that basis, Lutherans constitute an ethnic group.  Members of a condo association constitute an ethnic group.  Virtually any group that shares any characteristic that distinguishes it from other people would constitute an ethnic group.
> What a fucking loser.



Because you are incapable of discerning who is and is not a mental midget based on your own limitations.  

I did not make the definition.  Here is another:

Oxford English Dictionary
Ethnic
a[djective]

...
2.a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity. Also attrib.
n[oun]

...
3 A member of an ethnic group or minority. orig. U.S.
&#8212;Oxford English Dictionary "ethnic, a. and n."[23]

Unlike Lutherans, Jews also defined themselves through matrilineal heritage.   Unlike your condo association members - Jews do share a distinctive culture, religion and even language.

You can't have it both ways - you can't define yourself as an ethnic group for the purposes of minority protections against discrimmination on the one hand yet claim not be an ethnic group for the purposes of denying those same protections to another group by trying to claim they are all the same.

It amazes me the lengths you will go to defend a system that is inherently wrong.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> José;1937322 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wrong.

On NPR's All Things Considered, William Quandt (U. VA) said:

_Israel was established as a state for Jews. It has of course an Arab minority who have citizenship rights, *but the specific way in which land is owned in Israel is predominantly that the Jewish Agency purchases land on behalf of the Jewish people and then leases it out to its Jewish citizens.*

*Arabs cannot have access to that land that's owned by the Jewish Agency*. They can keep land they have privately owned before the State of Israel was created. There's a small amount of private property that can be traded and Arabs can buy that as well as Jews, but most land is held in trust for the Jewish people, so yes there is a legal basis for what we would flat out call discriminatory practices._


*Knesset rejects bill for equal Arab-Jewish land distribution *
_Tibi's proposal was intended to counter a bill passed two weeks ago which states that reception committees of Israeli communities can decide who will reside in their towns. One consequence of that bill is that Israeli Arabs would not be able to live in those towns if the reception committees decide so. _



> Israel's penal code has stringent anti-racism and anti-discrimination laws that assure anyone with a grievance the right to petiition the government.




Does it?  Is it enforced or enforceable?  If it is then why isn't it?



> Palestine - Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture
> The Israeli Declaration of Independence states that &#8220;the State of Israel ... will maintain full equality of political rights for all its citizens without distinction to religion, race and sex, will ensure freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.&#8221; And yet, fifty years later, this remains a dream unfulfilled; in many perspectives, we have not stood by this mandate. *To this day, Israel has neither a written constitution nor a bill of rights to protect human rights and the right to equality.* The Knesset, the Israeli Parliament, passed two laws in 1992, known as the Basic Laws, &#8220;Human Dignity and Liberty,&#8221; and &#8220;Freedom of Vocation,&#8221; which effectively have constitutional force. And yet, even as many consider these Basic Laws to be revolutionary, they *do not yet protect all fundamental rights.*



This rather surprised me - it was written in 1999, perhaps it has changed in 10 years but I can't find any confirmation of that.  According to this article discrimmination and inequality in the government's allocation of resources are a serious problem, along with equal access to land and the ability to expand.  





> Israel is as strong a democracy as the US.
> 
> And, you're a weak ass.



At the very least, in the U.S. - any U.S. citizen has the same right to live in any community, attend any school, buy any land as any other U.S. citizen.  

I don't expect much in the way of a coherent reply, much less any real debate from you, but what the hell.  It's worth a try.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

José;1937322 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Coyote*
> > I totally agree. Elections are the END result of a democratic system. In order for democracy (as we desire it) to work you have certain institutions in place. You have to have a certain educational level among enough of the population, an independent judiciary, a way to control corruption, violence and intimidation, the ability to hold the government accountable, a free press and a constitution that protects the rights of minority populations. If you don't have that voting alone is meaningless.
> >
> > They are still democratic - democracy doesn't have to have to recognize all inhabitants as "citizens".
> ...



Names (and words) have meaning - sometimes they are charged with particularly strong connotations.  I think we need to respect that.  Dictatorship is one such word that has a very specific meaning and it doesn't fit.  Dictatorship describes Mugabe's Zimbabwe or Hitler's Germany at one point.  It described Iraq under Saddam.  A dictatorship has no democratic principles - it's autocratic.  Using it lightly is like those who lightly use references to Hitler or accusations of racism to describe situations which bear little resemblence to historical reality.  I think it makes people disregard whatever point you are trying to make and you do make good points about ethnocracy.  That's my issue with it.



> The "meat" of this whole issue is the fact that in South Africa and Israel we had/have millions of individuals elligible to become citizens of those states who are kept as politically disenfranchised as any citizen of North Korea by authoritarian legislation approved by the Israeli legislative branch, uphold by the Judiciary and enforced by the Executive through brute force.



Agreed but not with the comparison to NK.  Isreal is at a crucial point.  It can't keep making claims to be the only real democracy (democracy in the way the West understands it to be) in the Middle East and still keep control of the occupied territories (and it does have de-facto control) which keeps millions of people without rights or citizenship or self-determination.  That is the similarity I see with Apartheid.  Now, there are a lot of semantical games concerning the status of the Palestinians and a lot of "blame the victim" mentality (and there is a share of blame due the Palestinians) but that doesn't erase the core reality: millions of people, under foreign control, without rights or citizenship or self-determination.  It's a situation that can't continue to exist indefinately.



> Since we both agree on these "hard facts" I think we should all be free to call Israel whatever we want to call it.
> 
> Whether we prefer to call it a "flawed" democracy, an ethnocracy or a jewish racial dictatorship is just a matter of denomination, a matter of labels, not substance. : )



No....words have meaning


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > I dont understand why I continue to respond to an obvious mental midget.
> ...



Wow what an ignoramus you are.  But we knew that already.
It doesn't matter whether you wrote the definition or not.  You are the one quoting it to bolster your case.  You are responsible for it.  And it fails.
Israelis do not define themselves through matrilineal descent.  The Law of Return allows anyone with a Jewish grandparent to become a citizen.  That isn't Judaism.  And I already pointed out that Ethiopian Israelis, Yemenite Israelis, American Israelis and FSU Israelis hardly share the same language, customs, foods or any other marker of an ethnic group.
The system (whatever that means) is not inherently wrong.  It is only wrong to morons like you who want to see every conflict as a replay of some other conflict they may or may not understand.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



You are hilarious.  And stupid.  But I'll forgive you that and assume it's only willful arrogance from a pretend Rabbi.

We were not talking about Israeli's as an "ethnic group".  We were talking about Jews as an "ethnic group".  Nothing you said changes anything thus far nor does it change the status Jews as an ethnic group and the non-Jewish Arab-Israeli as a seperate ethnic group.  

Even if we go with your claim - notice that Israeli's still require some form of blood relation.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Agreed but not with the comparison to NK.  Isreal is at a crucial point.  It can't keep making claims to be the only real democracy (democracy in the way the West understands it to be) in the Middle East and still keep control of the occupied territories (and it does have de-facto control) which keeps millions of people without rights or citizenship or self-determination.



Dummy, Israel is occupying no one.  The West Bank is not sovereign Arab land and international law fully permits Jews to reside throughout the territory.

Understand this concept, dummy.



> That is the similarity I see with Apartheid.



Wrong, dummy.   Apartheid is systematic, governmentally sanctioned discrimination and segregation of its population.  No such policy exists in Israel.

Dummy, you need to become familiarized with apartheid before spouting off about it.  You look like a moron.



> Now, there are a lot of semantical games concerning the status of the Palestinians and a lot of "blame the victim" mentality (and there is a share of blame due the Palestinians) but that doesn't erase the core reality: millions of people, under foreign control, without rights or citizenship or self-determination.  It's a situation that can't continue to exist indefinately.



Dummy, the Oslo Accords transferred authority over the West Bank to the PA.  Oslo permits an IDF presence.  Oslo permits Israeli settlements.

You know nothing of the matter, so, why do you even bother posting, dummy?

Pwned.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> That is the similarity I see with Apartheid.



for something to be 'apartheid', there has to be a separation of ones CITIZENS. Arab Israelis have all of the rights of citizenship except they have the right to opt out of military service, which Jews aren't allowed to do.

you should also know, that's one of those phrases/words that have meanings that tell us, when reading them, that the person who makes that analogy has issues with Israel that have nothing to do with fairness... 

pals aren't israelis. they have no rights of citizenship because they aren't citizens... any more that controlling our borders makes us 'apartheid'.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Keep moving those goalposts.  Eventually you'll get it right.
Your claim is that Israel is an ethno-tyrrany or whatever you call it.  I merely point out that "Israeli" refers to a nationality.  There is nothing ethnic about it.
So "Israelis" have more rights in Israel than non-Israelis.  Big furry deal. Every nation accords more rights to its own citizens than to non citizens.
You can spin it, slice it, dice it any way you want.  But the more you do that,the more ignorant and foolish you look.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Keep moving those goalposts.  Eventually you'll get it right.
> Your claim is that Israel is an ethno-tyrrany or whatever you call it.  I merely point out that "Israeli" refers to a nationality.  There is nothing ethnic about it.
> So "Israelis" have more rights in Israel than non-Israelis.  Big furry deal. Every nation accords more rights to its own citizens than to non citizens.
> You can spin it, slice it, dice it any way you want.  But the more you do that,the more ignorant and foolish you look.



No.  The problem we have here is a complete failure on your part to even find the goal posts.

Keep throwing out the red herrings.

The discussion was ethnic groups and defining them.  You do realize that one nationality can have different ethnic groups right?  And while they can all be "citizens" they might not all be treated differently?  Now you tried the failed arguments of "what ethnic group are Jews" and "what ethnic group are Arabs" and "what is an ethnic group" and jumping to the topic of Israeli's as a whole.  You're flailing.

There is no such thing as an Israeli citizen.  There are Arab Israeli Citizens and Jewish Israeli Citizens. That is how they are classified.

They do not have the same rights in regards to land ownership, immigration, family reunification, right of return or military service.

You continiously ignore that to repeat the same old mantra.

And, like I said to Jose.  Words are important.  I have never used the term "tyranny".


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Keep spinning it.  Keep pretending you know what you're talking about.  The more you post, the more idiotic you sound.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> There is no such thing as an Israeli citizen.  There are Arab Israeli Citizens and Jewish Israeli Citizens. That is how they are classified.



Wrong, dummy.

There are Israeli citizens.  I live in Israel.  You are an ignorant moron.



> They do not have the same rights in regards to land ownership, immigration, family reunification, right of return or military service.



Wrong, again, dummy.  Non-Jews have the same rights of land ownership, immigration and military service.

In fact, Bedouins have privileges not accorded to Jews in property ownership and leasing.  Arabs haveleadership positions in the military, as well as in government, the judiciary and in academia.   

You are utterly clueless.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

jillian said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > That is the similarity I see with Apartheid.
> ...




Apartheid in South Africa did not seperate citizens.  Blacks were regarded as citizens of "homelands" - semi autonomous areas within South Africa (naturally - the poorest and most inhospitable areas).  

From Wikipedia:
New legislation classified inhabitants into racial groups ("black", "white", "coloured", and "Indian"), and residential areas were segregated by means of forced removals. From 1958, Blacks were deprived of their citizenship, legally becoming citizens of one of ten tribally based self-governing homelands called bantustans, four of which became nominally independent states. The government segregated education, medical care, and other public services, and provided black people with services inferior to those of whites.

That has some similarity to the Palestinians in occupied territories and Arabs within Israel.  When it comes to Arab Israeli citizens there is a de-facto segregation.  Israeli communities have a say in who can and can't live there, Arabs have arab schools, usually with considerably less funding  -(though it's not just with Arab Israeli's where this occurs, but certain Jewish Israeli groups as well) and the Jewish Israeli's have their schools which are better funded.  While Israeli Jewish communities and enclaves can readily get permits to expand, Arab villages can not.  How many new Arab villages have been built since statehood?  How many Jewish villages?



> you should also know, that's one of those phrases/words that have meanings that tell us, when reading them, that the person who makes that analogy has issues with Israel that have nothing to do with fairness...



I'm not calling it apartheid, but I do see similarities and that is how I said it - and those similarities shouldn't be ignored.



> pals aren't israelis. they have no rights of citizenship because they aren't citizens... any more that controlling our borders makes us 'apartheid'.



South African blacks weren't citizens either.  

The ambigous status of the Palestinians is a mess for Israel's desire for the moral highground here because they are there - they have no self-determiniation, no rights, no citizenship.  That's a reality.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Apartheid in South Africa did not seperate citizens.  Blacks were regarded as citizens of "homelands" - semi autonomous areas within South Africa (naturally - the poorest and most inhospitable areas).



Wrong.  Blacks were separated from Whites under apartheid, including bathrooms and even the use of water fountains.   



> That has some similarity to the Palestinians in occupied territories and Arabs within Israel.



Wrong.  Palestinians are not occupied.  There is no sovereign Palestinian state and, indeed, Israel has legitimate legal and historical claims to the territory.

Under international treaties, Israelis may reside throughout the territories.

Furthermore, Israeli Arabs are accorded full freedoms, human rights and civil liberties.

You clearly have absolutely no insight into Israel, so, why are you even bothering to post?  



> When it comes to Arab Israeli citizens there is a de-facto segregation.  Israeli communities have a say in who can and can't live there, Arabs have arab schools, usually with considerably less funding  -(though it's not just with Arab Israeli's where this occurs, but certain Jewish Israeli groups as well) and the Jewish Israeli's have their schools which are better funded.  While Israeli Jewish communities and enclaves can readily get permits to expand, Arab villages can not.  How many new Arab villages have been built since statehood?  How many Jewish villages?



Further evidence you are clueless about Israeli society.  Arabs self-segregate into Arab communities, not unlike any other group throughout the world.  In New York, there is Chinatown and Little Italy, where Asians and Italians choose to live.



> I'm not calling it apartheid, but I do see similarities and that is how I said it - and those similarities shouldn't be ignored.



There are no similarities, whatsoever.  Blacks were denied the vote in apartheid South Africa.  Non-Jews in Israel can vote and, indeed, are well-represented in government.

There are Israeli Arab millionaires.  Israeli Arab media.  Israeli Arab businesses.  Arab and Muslim universities.  No such opportunities existed for Blacks in South Africa.

You really need to be educated. 



> South African blacks weren't citizens either.



South African Blacks lived in South Africa.  Pallies do not live in Israel.



> The ambigous status of the Palestinians is a mess for Israel's desire for the moral highground here because they are there - they have no self-determiniation, no rights, no citizenship.  That's a reality.



Pallies do not have ambiguous status.  They are occupiers in the West Bank and Gaza.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Israeli communities have a say in who can and can't live there, Arabs have arab schools, usually with considerably less funding  -(though it's not just with Arab Israeli's where this occurs, but certain Jewish Israeli groups as well) and the Jewish Israeli's have their schools which are better funded.  While Israeli Jewish communities and enclaves can readily get permits to expand, Arab villages can not.  How many new Arab villages have been built since statehood?  How many Jewish villages?



Dummy, Arab communities have a say on who can and cannot live there.  There are Arab sections in Jerusalem where Jews are vulnerable to sniper fire if entered.

As for Arab schools receiving smaller budgets, this is a municipal issue, not an Israeli government issue.  Arab schools receive less funding because Arabs do not pay their taxes.  Arab communities are hundreds of millions of dollars in arrears, so, naturally, they will suffer when budgets are allocated.

You are one of the most uninformed people I've come across.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > There is no such thing as an Israeli citizen.  There are Arab Israeli Citizens and Jewish Israeli Citizens. That is how they are classified.
> ...



So you claim...that could explain your bias - if, indeed you do live there, anyone can claim anything on an internet messageboard and there is no way to prove otherwise.  But you are right on one thing - I should not have said "citizens" - but nationality.  There is no such thing as Israeli nationality.

Perhaps you can explain why Israeli law divides citizenship into two nationalities and why those two nationalities have different rights as citizens?



> > They do not have the same rights in regards to land ownership, immigration, family reunification, right of return or military service.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, again, dummy.  Non-Jews have the same rights of land ownership, immigration and military service.



You are an idiot who can only repeat the same tired phrase over and over....

Can you support that claim?

I notice you did not claim they have the same right of family reunification.


As far as immigration, you are seriously stupid.  For example - the Law of Return is limited to Jews only. 



> In addition, The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763 makes inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen.  The law originated in a 2002 Cabinet order freezing the issuance of citizenship on family reunification grounds between Israeli citizens and residents of areas governed by the Palestinian Authority.



You claim they have the same rights of land ownership - yet, I have shown evidence that is not true.  You show no such evidence.



> In fact, Bedouins have privileges not accorded to Jews in property ownership and leasing.  Arabs haveleadership positions in the military, as well as in government, the judiciary and in academia.
> 
> You are utterly clueless.



You say: _"Arabs haveleadership positions in the military, as well as in government, the judiciary and in academia"_ - you realize what that sounds like don't you?  Token positions.  How many "leadership" positions do they have in relation to their overall population?

Nice deflection. I notice you do not address the Jewish Land Trust.

As far as the Bedouins, those "rights" sound suspiciously like the "rights" granted to blacks for their "homelands" in South Africa especially since  there seems to be a prevailing "seperate but equal" mentality, and we know how well that works.

Some interesting articles on those Bedouin in Israel:
Amira Hass / Israeli Jewish worldview sanctifies West Bank inequality - Haaretz - Israel News

The Bedouin intifada: It's not if, but when - Haaretz - Israel News


> The argument between the Bedouin and the government of Israel is part of an ongoing and worsening conflict over land in the Negev. The Bedouin claim that all 12 million dunams [three million acres] in the Negev are rightfully theirs. A total of 90,000 Bedouin were living in the Negev when Israel was established. During the War of Independence, most fled or were expelled to Egypt and Jordan, leaving 11,000 Bedouin within Israel's boundaries. *In the `50s and the `60s, the Bedouin were forcibly moved to a "restricted area" in the northern Negev*. One of the goals of concentrating the Bedouin population was to stop nomadic movement and create permanent settlements.
> 
> By the `90s, seven Bedouin townships were established, but with no employment infrastructure. These townships now have the highest unemployment rate in Israel. Al-Krenawi, a resident of the Bedouin city of Rahat, says that oppression, discrimination, neglect and inequality are the major causes of alienation in the Bedouin population in Israel.
> 
> ...



Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Prior to the establishment of Israel in 1948, there were an estimated 65,000-90,000 Bedouin living in the Negev.[52] *The 11,000 who remained were relocated by the Israeli government in the 1950s and 1960s to an area called the siyag ("enclosure" or, "fence") made up of relatively infertile land in the northeastern Negev comprising 10% of the Negev desert*.[52] Negev Bedouins, like the rest of the Arab population in Israel, lived under military rule up to 1966, after which restrictions were lifted and they were free to move outside the siyag as well. However, even after 1966 they were not free to reside outside of the siyag; they came to reside within 2% of the Negev[53] and never returned to their former range. Seven government-built townships were established in the siyag area where roughly half of Israel's Bedouin population live today,[52] centered around the largest legal Bedouin locality in Israel, Rahat. The Israeli government encourages Bedouin to settle as permanent residents in these development towns, but the other half of the Negev Bedouin population continues to live in 45 "unrecognized villages," some of which predate the existence of Israel.[52] These villages do not appear on any commercial maps, and are denied basic services like water, electricity, and schools. It is forbidden by the Israeli authorities for the residents of these villages to build permanent structures, though many do, risking fines and home demolition


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Apartheid in South Africa did not seperate citizens.  Blacks were regarded as citizens of "homelands" - semi autonomous areas within South Africa (naturally - the poorest and most inhospitable areas).
> ...



Are you really so stupid you can't even address the actual point?

Let me dumb it down for you even more if that is possible:
Blacks were NOT citizens of South Africa.  Just as the Palestinians are not citizens of Israel.

Can it be any plainer?

Apartheid was/is a complex system that was more than simple racial segregation and has come to mean more than South Africa.  



> Wrong.  Palestinians are not occupied.  There is no sovereign Palestinian state and, indeed, Israel has legitimate legal and historical claims to the territory.



Then that surely includes claims to the inhabitants of that territory that go along with it eh?



> Under international treaties, Israelis may reside throughout the territories.



Under international law, so may the Palestinians.



> Furthermore, Israeli Arabs are accorded full freedoms, human rights and civil liberties.



Prove it.  You keep saying it but so far, your record of proof is abysmal.



> You clearly have absolutely no insight into Israel, so, why are you even bothering to post?



Based on the one-sided simplicity of your own arguments, I seriously doubt you have any insight into Israel yourself much less stepped foot in it.  



> Further evidence you are clueless about Israeli society.  *Arabs self-segregate into Arab communities, not unlike any other group throughout the world*.  In New York, there is Chinatown and Little Italy, where Asians and Italians choose to live.



You do realize that same argument was used to justify continued policies of segregation in the U.S.?

Prove it.  I've offered sources showing otherwise.  You offer zip.



> There are no similarities, whatsoever.  Blacks were denied the vote in apartheid South Africa.  Non-Jews in Israel can vote and, indeed, are well-represented in government.
> 
> There are Israeli Arab millionaires.  Israeli Arab media.  Israeli Arab businesses.  Arab and Muslim universities.  No such opportunities existed for Blacks in South Africa.
> 
> You really need to be educated.



To repeat your own phrase:  you really need to be educated if you think simply voting (and the Palestinians in Gaza can't vote can they?), token positions in government and sporadic wealth are all that defines apartheid from not-apartheid you are seriously ignorant.



> > South African blacks weren't citizens either.
> 
> 
> 
> South African Blacks lived in South Africa.  Pallies do not live in Israel.



Wrong.

_...From 1958, Blacks were deprived of their citizenship, legally becoming citizens of one of ten tribally based self-governing homelands called bantustans, four of which became nominally independent states. _



> Pallies do not have ambiguous status.  They are occupiers in the West Bank and Gaza.



 better not tell them that or they might move back to their homeland in Israel.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Dummy, Arab communities have a say on who can and cannot live there.  There are Arab sections in Jerusalem where Jews are vulnerable to sniper fire if entered.
> 
> As for Arab schools receiving smaller budgets, this is a municipal issue, not an Israeli government issue.  Arab schools receive less funding because Arabs do not pay their taxes.  Arab communities are hundreds of millions of dollars in arrears, so, naturally, they will suffer when budgets are allocated.
> 
> You are one of the most uninformed people I've come across.



Yet again you oh-so-neatly side step the issue with an affirmation of seperate-but-equal.

Perhaps you can also explain why Jewish settlements and enclaves (which refuse entry to Arab citizens) are allowed expansion right and the rights to build new (legal) communities but Arabs are refused?  Do you think that is "right"?  Do you think then, that the way we used to do it in the U.S. - defacto segregation - was right?  Should you, as a Jew, be barred from living in non-Jewish areas?

Your take on the Arab schools is bullshit - read the articles (which I know you didn't).


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

1) There are Israeli arabs who are full citizens and have representatives in the Israeli parliament

2) The arabs in judea and samaria don't want to be Israeli citizens

3) Their leadership Hamas is recognized by the US state dept to be a terrorist organization. They have targeted Israeli civilian

4) The PA refuses to go even to the negotiating table. Therefore, they are entitled to nothing. 

5) They don't even recognize Israel's right to exist. Therefore, Israel giving a good chunk of the tinsy land it has, for some vague promises of peace, when their goal is the destruction of Israel is suicidal


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Keep spinning it.  Keep pretending you know what you're talking about.  The more you post, the more idiotic you sound.









Oops.  Sorry.  For a moment I thought you said something


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Also on a case-by-case basis I would be for arabs living in judea and samaria being full Israeli citizens as long as they serve in the IDF and swear an oath to Israel like the rest of the Israeli citizens.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> 1) There are Israeli arabs who are full citizens and have representatives in the Israeli parliament



Can you explain why Arab Israeli's do not have the same rights as Jewish Israeli's?


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > 1) There are Israeli arabs who are full citizens and have representatives in the Israeli parliament
> ...



They do, and are represented in Parliament.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> Also on a case-by-case basis I would be for arabs living in judea and samaria being full Israeli citizens as long as they serve in the IDF and swear an oath to Israel like the rest of the Israeli citizens.



Do the rest of Israeli citizens swear an oath to Israel?


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

List of political parties in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Arab List - Ta'al Ibrahim Sarsur 

They have 4 seats in the Israeli parliament


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Also on a case-by-case basis I would be for arabs living in judea and samaria being full Israeli citizens as long as they serve in the IDF and swear an oath to Israel like the rest of the Israeli citizens.
> ...



I would imagine that they would when they join the army, but I don't know the exact process.


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Here is the process. Also, they must be drafted into the IDF like normal Israeli citizens

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements, such as:

they must have resided in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day of submission of the application;

they are entitled to reside in Israel permanently and have settled or intended to settle in Israel;

they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.

The Minister of the Interior may exempt an applicant from some of these requirements.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > CMike said:
> ...



They do not enjoy the same rights of immigration, of return or family reunification as Jewish citizens nor do they have the right to buy government land held by the "Jewish Trust" - a right reserved for Jewish citizens.  Perhaps you can explain the descrepency?

Representation in Parliament is not the sum and total of rights.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > CMike said:
> ...



Ah, I see - I was looking at it as two seperate things - serving and swearing an oath.  I could agree with that idea though.


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Because it's a jewish state.

That said, arab israeli citizens have the full rights that jewish israeli citizens do.

They don't have rights if they are not Israeli citizens yet.

I am not sure what jewish trust you are referring too. Jews like america need to either rent or buy like everywhere lese.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> List of political parties in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> United Arab List - Ta'al Ibrahim Sarsur
> 
> They have 4 seats in the Israeli parliament



I think there is a total of only two Arab parties (?), and the electoral commission tried to ban both of them recently but their Supreme Court rejected it.

Out of 120 seats they hold 4.
Israel is 76% Jewish, 24% Arab.
A quarter of those seats would be 30 - they seem very under-represented.


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > List of political parties in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...



The Israeli parliament isn't based on quotas. Then they need to win more seats.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

The more posts, the more idiotic Coyote sounds.
Just because Israel doesn't resemble Switzerland thereofore it must resemble apartheid era South Africa.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > CMike said:
> ...





According the the ILA:  93% of the land in Israel is in the public domain; that is, either property of the state, the Jewish National Fund (JNF) or the Development Authority. 
The Israel Land Administration (ILA) is the government agency responsible for managing this land which comprises 4,820,500 acres (19,508,000 dunams). "Ownership" of real estate in Israel usually means leasing rights from the ILA for 49 or 98 years.

The problem is - whether it's deliberately legislated into or done as a matter of common and unchallabged practice - Arabs are seldom able to lease this land and as a result are restricted to overcrowded villages or settlements dubbed "illegal" by the state, provided with no infrastural improvements and subject to demolition. So, if they really have the same rights to lease lands as Jewish citizens, then why aren't those rights granted?

Israel Lands Administration: "Since the foundation of the state, the Israel Lands Administration is solely used as Jewish land administration. The director of the Israel Lands Administration has used all the tactics, with the help of the Jewish Agency, to allocate state land only to Jews. Despite the bitter attempt over the decades, *not even one Arab town has been established since the state's foundation." *

Another interesting article:  JNF heads oppose law allowing leasing of land only to Jews <br><br> - Haaretz - Israel News
and In Watershed, Israel Deems Land-use Rules of Zionist Icon ?Discriminatory? ? Forward.com

One strong thing I'll say in Israel's favor - discrimination is recognized by many there, and there is strong opposition within Israel to some of these policies and the courts have often ruled favorably.  That is in direct opposition to Jose's claim of Israel as a "dictatorship" and of claiming that Israel IS aparthied rather than similar in some respects.


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

The Jewish National Fund is private.

Why would they create arab towns? It's a jewish country.

An arab can rent or buy an apartment or a home.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > CMike said:
> ...



Of course it's not based on quotas, but when there is such a large descrepency - then raises the question of "why" and the answer "they need to win more seats" is disengenius.

It also makes it look more like "token" positions than anything else.


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



They ran for it and won it.

How come asians don't make up a larger portion of congress?


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> The Jewish National Fund is private.



But not the ILA.  Since its foundation it has allocated state land exclusively to Jewish citizens. 



> Why would they create arab towns? It's a jewish country.



Well, right there you are saying that discrimmination exists and you it is justified.  There is planning for "natural growth" in settlements but none allowed for Arab municipalities.  Perhaps Arab towns would not be needed if Arab Israeli's could settle freely around the country but they can't - they are barred.



> An arab can rent or buy an apartment or a home.



In some areas designated for Arabs.

Kind of like it used to be in the U.S. under Jim Crowe and segregation.  You really think that is a good thing or only a good thing for Israel?   Some discrimmination is ok?


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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Because Israeli Palestinians routinely boycott the elections.
It only looks like that to you because you're a moron of the first order.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Kind of like it used to be in the U.S. under Jim Crowe and segregation.  You really think that is a good thing or only a good thing for Israel?   Some discrimmination is ok?



Whoop, there you go again.  Everything but must filtered through experiences you think you understand.  Never mind the two things have zero in common, except in your own mind.


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## BolshevikHunter (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Kind of like it used to be in the U.S. under Jim Crowe and segregation.  You really think that is a good thing or only a good thing for Israel?   Some discrimmination is ok?
> ...



You still pretending that The Madman Obama's master Rahm Emanuel isn't your hero Mr. Fake Rabbi?  







 ~BH


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 24, 2010)

CMike said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > CMike said:
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In fact they do hold more seats, 13.  Three Arab parties have members in the current Knesset: United Arab List, 4 members; Hadash, 4 members; and Balad, 3 members.  In addition, Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu, Avigdor Lieberman's party, each have one Arab member in the Knesset.  

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of political parties in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arabs make up about 20% of Israeli citizens and they hold about 11% of the seats in the Knesset.  African Americans make up about 13.5% of US citizens and they hold 43 seats in the 535 member US Congress (42 seats in the House and one seat in the Senate), about 8%.  If you crunch the numbers, that means that in proportion to their percent of the population, Arab citizens in Israel are slightly better represented in the Knesset than African Americans are in the US Congress.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
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> 
> > CMike said:
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While Arab voter turnout has been on a decline, it was 54.3 % in the 2009 election - a boycott doesn't explain it all.  Interesting article.

Only 65% of all Israeli's voted in 2009.

Double whammy: the election commissions attempt to disqualify both Arab parties.

1955 Knesset had 90% Arab voter participation.  Only two Arab party seats were won with another two from a Jewish-Arab cooperative party.

1969 a steady decliine to 80% - no Arab party won seats, though there were several "cooperative" parties won 4 seats.

Arab voter turnout continued to decline then jumped up again to 77% in 1996 (overall voter turnout was 79%) - only one Arab party, 4 seats.

1999 - Arab List party won 5 seats with something like 75% arab voter turn out.

2003 62% (2001 was 18% - a boycott) - Arab party won 2 seats.

2006 total voter turnout was lowest ever at 63.2%, Arab voter turnout was 56.3% United Arab List-Taal won 3 seats.

So it would seem regardless of voter turnout - they've never won more than 5 seats (and that was in a year with only 75%) turn out.  In a number of the years - Arab voter turnout was not significantly different from overall voter turn out and the years when they were highest saw only 2-4 seats gained.

I'm not sure - other than 2001 (which was strictly for prime minister) - how much of a boycott there was and whether it made any difference anyway.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

toomuchtime_ said:


> CMike said:
> 
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> > Coyote said:
> ...



Thank you for the correction - I didn't look deep enough


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Kind of like it used to be in the U.S. under Jim Crowe and segregation.  You really think that is a good thing or only a good thing for Israel?   Some discrimmination is ok?
> ...



Projecting again are you?


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I'm not the one insisting that Israel is like the Jim Crow South or apartheid era South Africa.  You're the one engaging in that fallacy.
But it's a lot easier than admitting the truth: that you don't have a clue what's going on in Israel but gosh there sure are a lot of pictures of innocent looking people getting killed/beaten up so there must be SOMETHING going on here.


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## CMike (Jan 24, 2010)

Actually it was my mistake. I was doing it too quickly.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

toomuchtime_ said:


> CMike said:
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> 
> > Coyote said:
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What's your point, dummy?  Do you even have one, moron?


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> > But not the ILA.  Since its foundation it has allocated state land exclusively to Jewish citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > > But not the ILA.  Since its foundation it has allocated state land exclusively to Jewish citizens.
> ...


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



Yup, I'm insisting there are similarities.  As of yet, you have been unable to counter them.  But, that's ok.  I'm patient 

Well...now...Mr. pseudo-Rabbi wants to talk about the "truth"....how novel.

So, basically - similarities to Jim Crow and apartheid era South Africa is limited to innocent looking (aha - note the distinction here boys and girls - "innocent _looking_" - Arabs can never be innocent ) people getting killed/beaten up.  Glad you found such a simple means of identifying what is or isn't similar to apartheid.  There is no need then to look into actual legal practices.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> You're another big dummy.  All Israeli citizens are accorded equal rights that are constitutionally guaranteed.



Israel doesn't have a constitution, dummy.

....and you live in Israel?


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > You're another big dummy.  All Israeli citizens are accorded equal rights that are constitutionally guaranteed.
> ...



Israel does not have a constitution guaranteeing equal rights.

Palestine does.

Article (9)
All Palestinians are equal under the law and judiciary, without discrimination because of race, sex, color, religion, political views, or disability.

Article (18)
Freedom of belief, worship, and performance of religious rituals are guaranteed, provided that they do not violate public order or public morals.

http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/misc/Amended_Basic_Law.pdf


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel does not have a constitution guaranteeing equal rights.



Wrong, dummy.



> Palestine does.



Israel IS Palestine, moron.



> Article (9)
> All Palestinians are equal under the law and judiciary, without discrimination because of race, sex, color, religion, political views, or disability.
> 
> Article (18)
> ...



Haha.  You're such a retard.

Pallies have no rights, moron.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVWk8qjsU8]YouTube - Hamas Imposing Sharia Law In Gaza[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Israel does not have a constitution guaranteeing equal rights.
> ...



Things would be better if our dictator had not shut down the courts.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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Things would be better if you were born with a functioning brain.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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You keep showing the same one video. What else do you have?


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
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You keep showing your dead brain.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Are you guys Israel's finest?

If so, I can understand its paranoia about its existence.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Israel does not have a constitution guaranteeing equal rights.
> ...



I see the wheel is spinning, but the hamster looks dead.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Are you guys Israel's finest?
> 
> If so, I can understand its paranoia about its existence.



i have no doubt about israel's continued existence.

as for paranoia, well, is it paranoia when people lie about it because they want to see it destroyed?


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> If so, I can understand its paranoia about its existence.



Israel is one of the most advanced, successful and prosperous countries in the world, shithead.  

You ought to be paranoid about why you have turned out to be such a dumbass loser.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Are you guys Israel's finest?
> ...



What lies might they be?


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > If so, I can understand its paranoia about its existence.
> ...



With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti could be an advanced, successful and prosperous country.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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You're a stoner whose brain is fried.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti could be an advanced, successful and prosperous country.



since you asked... that's a lie you've repeated besides being shown what BS it is.

why? because you don't care what we spend money on as long as it isn't jews? come on... where are your complaints about the money we give egypt and saudi arabia and lebanon...and jordan... and so on and so on.

THAT is what makes you a liar and a hypocrite.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti could be an advanced, successful and prosperous country.
> ...



He's not a liar.  He's mentally deranged.  He clearly is uninformed but has so little self-respect, does not care about being shredded.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti could be an advanced, successful and prosperous country.
> ...



I do complain about that.

BTW, all that money goes to benefit Israel.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
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Do you ever wonder what life would be like if you'd had enough oxygen at birth?


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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Stoner.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> I do complain about that.
> 
> BTW, all that money goes to benefit Israel.



another lie... 

maybe Suha should give back the bucks that ended up in her French bank accounts.

see, your problem is you talk about "justice" but you're patholoigcal in your misrepresentations... 

such as the above.

and you were calling someone else paranoid?


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
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Is that your new vocabulary word for the day?


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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Vocabulary word is redundant, moron.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



All your similarities have been shown to be specious.  There are none.  You might as well compare the situation in Israel to the Boer War.  Or The Reformation.  Or Vietnam.
Merely insisting on it doesn't make it so. But it does make you look like the ill informed piece of shit you are.
Have you noticed that your supporters in this thread are PF Tinmore and the usual cast of anti semites on thsi board?  Doesn't that bother you?


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



Now, Now, Don't get mad. Sit down and give your mind a rest.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> BTW, all that money goes to benefit Israel.



And, this is how Israel benefits the US, dummy...

Since 1967, Israel has given to the Pentagon Soviet military equipment captured in conflicts with Soviet-supported Arab countries, providing important data. Israel gave the US a full squadron of MiG-21s which was called the Top Gun squadron and used by the U.S. Air Force and Navy for training purposes. 

In 1970, Israel forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army from US-ally Jordan while the U.S. was involved militarily in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, helping to prevent the collapse of a pro-American government and the installation of a pro-Soviet regime.

In the 1973 War, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian armies. Israel shared captured Soviet equipment with the US. Israel emerged the one reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned and where the U.S. has friendly port facilities, saving the US billions of dollars.

In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft systems in Lebanon that were considered impenetrable by American weapons. Israel shared with the US insights from the conflict, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

Senator Daniel Inouye has stated that Israeli data on the Soviet military has saved the U.S. billions of dollars and that the contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America exceeds information provided by all NATO countries combined.

In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, stalling Saddam Husseins nuclear capabilities and allowing the U.S. to engage in conventional warfare with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

Israel has provided critical analysis of the F16 to General Dynamics that resulted in 600 improvements, including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

In the Gulf War, Israel provided the US with key intelligence, air cover for military cargo and had IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots.

The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

The US military benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for Allied forces through Iraqi minefields.

Mobile bridges flown directly from Israel to Saudi Arabia were used by the U.S. Marine Corps

Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhanced the range of F15 aircraft used in the Gulf War.

An Israeli-produced targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

Israel manufactured the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

A low-altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sandbags.

Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, has stated that Israel is worth five CIAs. He said that between 1974 and 
1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants, but, that in the same timeframe Israel provided the U.S. with $50-$80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings and Soviet weapons systems given to the U.S.

Israel shares with the US important experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs. 

In preparation for the Iraq War, American soldiers trained in IDF facilities and Israeli drones flew above the Sunni Triangle and in Afghanistan providing U.S. Marines with critical intelligence.

In Iraq, Israeli advisers have trained US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders. 

The IDF sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and Israeli military consultants have also visited Iraq. 

The US Army also travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas. The IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces. The Pentagon regularly asked the IDF to debrief on operations similar to those engaged in by US military forces.

An American liaison team had been responsible for coordinating efforts and intelligence between the Pentagon, the IDF, and American forces. Major General Charles Simpson, the chief liaison officer for the U.S. Army, met repeatedly with IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon on this joint project. 

Joint air force exercises, such as the Juniper Cobra, had taken place between Israeli and the American Patriot artillery in the Negev and radar units from the U.S. Sixth Fleet. Noble Dina, an anti-submarine warfare exercise, were executed with the combined efforts of the Israel Navy and the Sixth Fleet. 

American soldiers were in Israel prior to the Iraq war to work with anti-missile defenses, both the U.S.-made Patriot and the Arrow, developed by both Israel and the U.S. 

The U.S. sailed an aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman, into the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft allowed U.S. planes to reach Iraqi targets by flying over Israeli and Jordanian territory. Israel has permitted the use of its air zones. 

Israel has been sharing with the US its experience in combating Palestinian terrorism, which has been helpful in the US's war in Afghanistan. The US military benefits from Israels tactics against suicide bombers, car bombs and improvised explosive devices. 

Most of the US military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States, which benefits US military contractors. 

In contrast to US commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and numerous other countries in which the US has over 100 military bases, the US has no military bases in Israel. 

Former Secretary of State and NATO forces Commander Alexander Haig has said that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is "the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security" 

In the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in August 2005, Israel provided assistance to the relief efforts. An Israeli airlift arrived in Little Rock, Arkansas with an eighty-ton shipment of humanitarian aid, including baby food, diapers, water, ready-to-eat meals, clothes, tents, blankets, mattresses, stretchers, first aid kits, wheelchairs and other medical supplies.

In addition to government aid, Israeli non-profit organizations assisted in the relief efforts. Magen David Adom (Israel's national emergency medical, disaster, ambulance and blood bank service) began the "United Brotherhood Operation," which sent a plane-load of supplies and financial assistance. IsraAid, the coordinating body of Israeli non-profits organizations involved in relief work, sent a delegation of medical personnel, psychologists and experienced search-and-rescue divers.

 Five universities in Israel welcomed displaced American students from the affected areas and invited both undergraduate and graduate students to continue their studies in Israel.

When terrorists bombed the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in August 1998, Israel immediately dispatched search and rescue teams to assist in saving the victims trapped under the rubble. The IDF's Home Front Command Rescue Unit was the first delegation to arrive from abroad, and was accompanied by military and civilian doctors, rescue dogs and high-tech rescue equipment. The Israeli team led the rescue operation in Nairobi, Kenya and was able to pull three survivors from the building, perform life-saving operations and provide medical care to the victims of the bombing.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> All your similarities have been shown to be specious.  There are none.  You might as well compare the situation in Israel to the Boer War.  Or The Reformation.  Or Vietnam.
> *Merely insisting on it doesn't make it so*. But it does make you look like the ill informed piece of shit you are.
> Have you noticed that your supporters in this thread are PF Tinmore and the usual cast of anti semites on thsi board?  Doesn't that bother you?



Indeed.  Perhaps you should remember that next time you pass off anorexic farts for debate?  If you tell a lie often enough - it does not make it truth.

And your supporters are....ding...ding...ding.....


hmm....I'm sure there are some....

Oh ya, Marc and Mike, the _other_ face of anti-semites.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > All your similarities have been shown to be specious.  There are none.  You might as well compare the situation in Israel to the Boer War.  Or The Reformation.  Or Vietnam.
> ...



Thats called projection.
Your arguments have been unmasked as a tissue of ignorance wrapped in lies.  I'd suggest quitting this thread before you achieve ultimate laughing stock status.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > All your similarities have been shown to be specious.  There are none.  You might as well compare the situation in Israel to the Boer War.  Or The Reformation.  Or Vietnam.
> ...



Funny, coming from you, given your knowledge of Middle East affairs is less than zero.

Entertain us with your keen insight into Israel.  LOL


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, all that money goes to benefit Israel.
> ...



If you are going to plagierize, you should at least link to the sources: Embassy of Israel in Washington DC


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



Request denied.

Still awaiting evidence that you are in any position to judge anyone's knowledge of the Middle East.


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## The Rabbi (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I'd say he's offered in again and again.
And you have offered evidence again and again that you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2010)

The Rabbi said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



Ever thought of removing your head from Marc's ass?  You give a whole new meaning to "butt buddies".


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## Kalam (Jan 24, 2010)

Coyote said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Some people are so shameless that they'll stoop to supporting brainless neanderthals like Marcy Marc... so long as they share a common ideology.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > I do complain about that.
> ...



It is interesting that you bring up Suha. Why do you think Israel dragged Arafat back to Palestine. And then he, and his friends, became rich while the Palestinians ate dirt and the peace process went backward.

There is a story there.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> It is interesting that you bring up Suha. Why do you think Israel dragged Arafat back to Palestine. And then he, and his friends, became rich while the Palestinians ate dirt and the peace process went backward.
> 
> There is a story there.



The story is Nasser made Arafat the head of the PLO, moron.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > It is interesting that you bring up Suha. Why do you think Israel dragged Arafat back to Palestine. And then he, and his friends, became rich while the Palestinians ate dirt and the peace process went backward.
> ...



Yeah but that is not the story.


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## Marc39 (Jan 24, 2010)

P F Tinmore said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It's not your story, however, you've been proven mentally retarded.


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