# The West´s silly Ukrainian ISIS Nazi Army



## Bleipriester

*Groups of right-wing Ukrainian nationalists are committing war crimes in the rebel-held territories of Eastern Ukraine, according to a report from Amnesty International, as evidence emerged in local media of the volunteer militias beheading their victims.*

Ukrainian Nationalist Volunteers Committing ISIS-Style War Crimes


----------



## Stratford57

Let’s remember how Obama was making Americans believe they were supporting “moderate opposition” in Syria. Should a video with a representative of the “moderate opposition” eating the heart (or liver) of his just killed enemy wake everybody up and open their eyes? Never happened. The money and weapons never stopped. And a little bit later the world was shocked with ISIS appearance. Now it’s terrorizing not only Syria but almost all Europe.

Same thing is going on now with supporting Kiev regime, who keeps killing its people who don’t agree with it. And there already exists a term for it: fascist regime. My question is: should the world
1. learn a lesson from its past
or
2. keep having its eyes closed until it’s too late?

Something tells me: the world prefers tactics N 2. Even after the U.S. House of Representatives considered H.R. 2685, the “Department of Defense Appropriations Act of 2015.”  During consideration of the legislation, Congressman John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.) and Congressman Ted Yoho (R-Fla.) offered bipartisan amendments to block the training of the Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitary militia “Azov Battalion”

U.S. House Passes 3 Amendments By Rep. Conyers To Defense Spending Bill To Protect Civilians From Dangers Of Arming and Training Foreign Forces - Press Releases - News - U.S. Congressman John Conyers Jr.


----------



## Bleipriester

All our alleged values are going overboard so quickly.


----------



## ESay

Bleipriester said:


> *Groups of right-wing Ukrainian nationalists are committing war crimes in the rebel-held territories of Eastern Ukraine, according to a report from Amnesty International, as evidence emerged in local media of the volunteer militias beheading their victims.*



Thank you very much for opening our eyes to atrocities committed by neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine. Yes, the Kiev junta and its western supporters will never say the truth about it, because they are liars. It is great that on this forum there are people like you and some other members who have shouldered the burden of enlightening us. You even took the trouble to increase the size of the type in order to give a chance for silly people to understand better your message. It is great, really.

I want to complete your message with this paragraph taken from the same article
_The organisation has also published a report detailing similar alleged atrocities committed by pro-Russian militants, highlighting the brutality of the conflict which has claimed over 3,000 lives._

I don’t know why you didn’t mention about it. Of course, I don’t think you did so purposely! Maybe you just overlooked it or you thought it was insignificant information. So, I decided to add it because without it some people may think that you and some other truth-seekers on this forum are similar to all those liars who give only that information which is convenient for them. You shouldn’t bother to thank me; I was very glad to help you.


----------



## Bleipriester

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Groups of right-wing Ukrainian nationalists are committing war crimes in the rebel-held territories of Eastern Ukraine, according to a report from Amnesty International, as evidence emerged in local media of the volunteer militias beheading their victims.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for opening our eyes to atrocities committed by neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine. Yes, the Kiev junta and its western supporters will never say the truth about it, because they are liars. It is great that on this forum there are people like you and some other members who have shouldered the burden of enlightening us. You even took the trouble to increase the size of the type in order to give a chance for silly people to understand better your message. It is great, really.
> 
> I want to complete your message with this paragraph taken from the same article
> _The organisation has also published a report detailing similar alleged atrocities committed by pro-Russian militants, highlighting the brutality of the conflict which has claimed over 3,000 lives._
> 
> I don’t know why you didn’t mention about it. Of course, I don’t think you did so purposely! Maybe you just overlooked it or you thought it was insignificant information. So, I decided to add it because without it some people may think that you and some other truth-seekers on this forum are similar to all those liars who give only that information which is convenient for them. You shouldn’t bother to thank me; I was very glad to help you.
Click to expand...

Because this is about evidence - severed Heads of murdered people - and not about "similar alleged atrocities" of the other side.


----------



## ESay

Bleipriester said:


> Because this is about evidence



Can you give an example of such evidence?


----------



## Sbiker

Bleipriester said:


> Ukrainian Nationalist Volunteers Committing ISIS-Style War Crimes



But why "ISIS-style". It's similar, but Ukrainian Nazi are the straight descendants and followers of German Nazi from WW2. Here in German movie you can see, how they started (start from 40 minute):


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because this is about evidence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you give an example of such evidence?
Click to expand...


BTW, wanna see movie about "pro-russian terrorists"? Just here with subtitles:
 . Humans live here. Court METRAGE Short film corner FESTIVAL DE CANNES 2015 - YouTube


----------



## Bleipriester

ESay said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because this is about evidence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you give an example of such evidence?
Click to expand...

Read the article. I am not going through the disgusting images you´ll find when googling these forces like Aidar battalion.


----------



## Bleipriester

Sbiker said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian Nationalist Volunteers Committing ISIS-Style War Crimes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But why "ISIS-style". It's similar, but Ukrainian Nazi are the straight descendants and followers of German Nazi from WW2. Here in German movie you can see, how they started (start from 40 minute):
Click to expand...

Can´t watch it due to slow internet. I am on GPRS what is quite annoying.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> BTW, wanna see movie about "pro-russian terrorists"? Just here with subtitles:



I don’t need subtitles. I have watched plenty of similar videos already. There is a civil war in Ukraine, with war crimes being committed by both sides.


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, wanna see movie about "pro-russian terrorists"? Just here with subtitles:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t need subtitles. I have watched plenty of similar videos already. There is a civil war in Ukraine, with war crimes being committed by both sides.
Click to expand...


Not from BOTH sides, moron, from Ukrainian side. You, stupid, are waiting for Europe to open its arms and to adopt Ukraine and you don't even care how many innocent lives of Donbass people it's gonna take to fulfill dream. Even if all Donbass people are killed to satisfy your European integration (which will never happen, Europeans are not as stupid as Ukrainian "patriots"). Don't you think it would be more honest and less bloody for Western Ukraine so separate from Eastern Ukraine and go to Europe (or to hell, we don't care) without destroying millions of civilians' lives????

I know for sure: if Western Ukraine wanted to separate, the residents from the Eastern Ukraine would NEVER come to their lands and start killing them and destroying their homes (in fact a few years ago, when Western Ukraine was badly flooded, the biggest percentage of money to help came from Donbass people). It is *Kiev*, who sent its troops to Donbass to destroy it, not vise verse. Think about it during intervals in  your sweet dreams of European integration for Ukraine.


----------



## Camp

If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly. This is not civil war in Ukraine that can sustain itself. It relies of Russian invasion. Russia is the aggressor trying to rebuild old USSR.
Here is proof everyone has wanted to see. Russian troops in Ukraine. Russian military unit and active duty traveling from base in Russia to combat in Ukraine. Not just "volunteers" who "quit Russian Army" and go to Ukraine for "vacation" lie. Not "Russian" patrol getting "lost".

youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso

The dirty truth is now on youtube for anyone to see.


----------



## Bleipriester

Camp said:


> If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly. This is not civil war in Ukraine that can sustain itself. It relies of Russian invasion. Russia is the aggressor trying to rebuild old USSR.
> Here is proof everyone has wanted to see. Russian troops in Ukraine. Russian military unit and active duty traveling from base in Russia to combat in Ukraine. Not just "volunteers" who "quit Russian Army" and go to Ukraine for "vacation" lie. Not "Russian" patrol getting "lost".
> 
> youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso
> 
> The dirty truth is now on youtube for anyone to see.


What´s the point? Without the western initiated putsch, nothing of all that would have happened. If there are Russian troops in the Donetsk People´s Republic, they were invited and are legitimate.


----------



## Camp

Bleipriester said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly. This is not civil war in Ukraine that can sustain itself. It relies of Russian invasion. Russia is the aggressor trying to rebuild old USSR.
> Here is proof everyone has wanted to see. Russian troops in Ukraine. Russian military unit and active duty traveling from base in Russia to combat in Ukraine. Not just "volunteers" who "quit Russian Army" and go to Ukraine for "vacation" lie. Not "Russian" patrol getting "lost".
> 
> youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso
> 
> The dirty truth is now on youtube for anyone to see.
> 
> 
> 
> What´s the point? Without the western initiated putsch, nothing of all that would have happened. If there are Russian troops in the Donetsk People´s Republic, they were invited and are legitimate.
Click to expand...

You have only allegations of a so called western initiated putsch. Elections have been held in Ukraine since that time frame. The international monitors and the international community recognizes the government in Kiev as they legitimate government. In any case, it is not against international law for government to use diplomatic influence to support one side or another. It is against international law to assist with force of arms. The Donetsk Republic does not have authority to invite foreign troops into the territory of Ukraine. There is nothing legitimate about them. If they were the Russians would not be lying about them being there and they would not be attempting to hide them.
Russians and separatist have been caught lying about troops in Ukraine by Russian soldiers photoing themselves in Ukraine while still on active duty. These photo's are posted all over social media for the world to see.
You posted a response so fast it is impossible for you to have seen video from my post unless you had seen it already.  It will go viral and everyone will be able to confirm what liars the separatist and Putin have been for sure.


----------



## Indofred

The war in Ukraine is unusual in that it's hardly reported.
Very few people outside political circles even know there's a war going on, much less that US troops are involved.
One has to ask why that is.


----------



## Camp

Indofred said:


> The war in Ukraine is unusual in that it's hardly reported.
> Very few people outside political circles even know there's a war going on, much less that US troops are involved.
> One has to ask why that is.


Your full of crap dude. The war in Ukraine shows up in all the major papers on and off line whenever a significant event takes place. It is front page news very often. It is the cause for bad relation between the free world and Russia.
US trainers in Ukraine is not a secret. It has been well publicized. The video I posted is proof of an active Russian tank unit participating in a combat role in in Ukraine. No one is accusing anyone else of using combat troops in Ukraine. There are no western weapons littering the battlefields in Ukraine and no dead soldiers being secretly returned for hidden buriels the way they are in Russia.


----------



## Bleipriester

Camp said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly. This is not civil war in Ukraine that can sustain itself. It relies of Russian invasion. Russia is the aggressor trying to rebuild old USSR.
> Here is proof everyone has wanted to see. Russian troops in Ukraine. Russian military unit and active duty traveling from base in Russia to combat in Ukraine. Not just "volunteers" who "quit Russian Army" and go to Ukraine for "vacation" lie. Not "Russian" patrol getting "lost".
> 
> youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso
> 
> The dirty truth is now on youtube for anyone to see.
> 
> 
> 
> What´s the point? Without the western initiated putsch, nothing of all that would have happened. If there are Russian troops in the Donetsk People´s Republic, they were invited and are legitimate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have only allegations of a so called western initiated putsch. Elections have been held in Ukraine since that time frame. The international monitors and the international community recognizes the government in Kiev as they legitimate government. In any case, it is not against international law for government to use diplomatic influence to support one side or another. It is against international law to assist with force of arms. The Donetsk Republic does not have authority to invite foreign troops into the territory of Ukraine. There is nothing legitimate about them. If they were the Russians would not be lying about them being there and they would not be attempting to hide them.
> Russians and separatist have been caught lying about troops in Ukraine by Russian soldiers photoing themselves in Ukraine while still on active duty. These photo's are posted all over social media for the world to see.
> You posted a response so fast it is impossible for you to have seen video from my post unless you had seen it already.  It will go viral and everyone will be able to confirm what liars the separatist and Putin have been for sure.
Click to expand...

The government in Kiev and its elections aren´t legitimate. The Nazi Putsch - hailed and cheered by western medias - did not represent the opinion of the Ukrainian majority or liquidated an evil regime. If the West had thought, the people would vote Yanukovych out of office and elect a pro EU government in regular, legitimate elections, it would have started another campaign like the corrupt and criminal "orange revolution" that proved to the Ukrainians that going with the EU is going with organized crime and that elections worked in Ukraine.

The Donetsk People´s Republic represents the will of the people.

Very interesting in that context is for example the election of 2004:




Viktor Yushchenko





Viktor Yanukovych


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="Bleipriester, post: 11626009, member: 41102"] QUOTE
	
="Camp, post: 11625978, member: 44680"]If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly. This is not civil war in Ukraine that can sustain itself. It relies of Russian invasion. Russia is the aggressor trying to rebuild old USSR.
Here is proof everyone has wanted to see. Russian troops in Ukraine. Russian military unit and active duty traveling
	
 from base in Russia to combat in Ukraine. Not just "volunteers" who "quit Russian Army" and go to Ukraine for "vacation" lie. Not "Russian" patrol getting "lost".

youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso

The dirty truth is now on youtube for anyone to see.[ QUOTE
	
]
What´s the point? Without the western initiated putsch, nothing of all that would have happened. If there are Russian troops in the Donetsk People´s Republic, they were invited and are legitimate.[/QUOTE]

Ambassador Samantha Power Testimony US Interests Video C-SPAN.org

Yesterday there was a sharp discussion in *American Congress* between Samantha Power, American representative in UN and Dana Rohrabacher (R), who was asking her uncomfortable questions about Ukraine.

Watch how she prefers to answer a respectable congressman’s questions, which are uncomfortable for her: “I do not listen to Mr. Putin’s claims.” (Same way all Obama’s Administration (Jen Psaki, Marie Harf, etc.) answers all the uncomfortable questions from the press. Same way Obama presents his “irrefutable evidence”: just because I say so.)

Watch the video from 1.10.14 up to 1.14.09:

Dana Rohrabacher:

-  I’d like to ask you about Ukraine. You described civilians were shelled by Russian allies there in Ukraine. I went over to Europe and met with some intelligence agencies in various countries and they were telling me that actually Ukrainian military which was 1/3 made up of people who  were not in military but instead on a payroll of some oligarch. They have heavy artillery and indiscriminately were shelling separatists’ villages.

-  If you are a US representative you should pay attention to everybody’s claims and you should refute them rather than dismissing them.

-  I happen to believe there was a coup in Ukraine, meaning *violent overthrow* of the elected government. If it did not happen we would not be in this situation and the Ukrainians would have been spared this.

-  *It did not start with Russia going into separatists’ areas*, that’s not where it started.

Well done, Mr. Rohrabacher! That’s a man!


----------



## Bleipriester

Sad but true but if you aren´t armed, there is no sense in talking with those. Only If Obama and his filth know you can blow their criminal militants to the moon, they consider to seriously talk with you.


----------



## Camp

Long drawn out politicized rants will not change the fact that new proof of Russian invasion of Ukraine has become readily available to the general public. Putin is violating basic international law and lying about it. He has been exposed and caught. Lecturing people about you perception of history will not change the facts being presented that show Russians coming into Ukraine for the purpose of killing Ukrainians.

youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso


----------



## Bleipriester

Camp said:


> Long drawn out politicized rants will not change the fact that new proof of Russian invasion of Ukraine has become readily available to the general public. Putin is violating basic international law and lying about it. He has been exposed and caught. Lecturing people about you perception of history will not change the facts being presented that show Russians coming into Ukraine for the purpose of killing Ukrainians.
> 
> youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso


Since when do the West and its puppets care about international law?


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="Bleipriester, post: 11626788, member: 41102"] QUOTE
	
="Camp, post: 11626775, member: 44680"]Long drawn out politicized rants will not change the fact that new proof of Russian invasion of Ukraine has become readily available to the general public. Putin is violating basic international law and lying about it. He has been exposed and caught. Lecturing people about you perception of history will not change the facts being presented that show Russians coming into Ukraine for the purpose of killing Ukrainians.

youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso[ QUOTE
	
]
Since when do the West and its puppets care about international law?[/QUOTE]
Yea-ah... The West is strictly observing International law...


----------



## Bleipriester

Can you please make proper quotations? I can´t quote you because that would just increase the confusion. The links to the quoted posts are automatically included, anyway.


----------



## Stratford57

Bleipriester said:


> Can you please make proper quotations? I can´t quote you because that would just increase the confusion. The links to the quoted posts are automatically included, anyway.


I am sorry, that's what I get from the system when I push "quote" and then "insert the quotes". Do you know, what I am doing wrong? That's what I  have been doing before and it always worked, but recently just doesn't work any more...


----------



## ESay

Stratford57 said:


> Not from BOTH sides, moron, from Ukrainian side. You, stupid, are waiting for Europe to open its arms and to adopt Ukraine and you don't even care how many innocent lives of Donbass people it's gonna take to fulfill dream. Even if all Donbass people are killed to satisfy your European integration (which will never happen, Europeans are not as stupid as Ukrainian "patriots"). Don't you think it would be more honest and less bloody for Western Ukraine so separate from Eastern Ukraine and go to Europe (or to hell, we don't care) without destroying millions of civilians' lives????
> 
> I know for sure: if Western Ukraine wanted to separate, the residents from the Eastern Ukraine would NEVER come to their lands and start killing them and destroying their homes (in fact a few years ago, when Western Ukraine was badly flooded, the biggest percentage of money to help came from Donbass people). It is *Kiev*, who sent its troops to Donbass to destroy it, not vise verse. Think about it during intervals in your sweet dreams of European integration for Ukraine.



Oh, our truth-seekers get to show their truly face.

Okay, I will answer in your manner – the manner ‘вата’ only understands. If you had a brain in your stupid hollow head, you would understand what I was trying to tell you in another thread. But in your fucked head there is only Nazis and Putin-saviour. And now fuck off.


----------



## ESay

Camp said:


> If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly. This is not civil war in Ukraine that can sustain itself. It relies of Russian invasion. Russia is the aggressor trying to rebuild old USSR.
> Here is proof everyone has wanted to see. Russian troops in Ukraine. Russian military unit and active duty traveling from base in Russia to combat in Ukraine. Not just "volunteers" who "quit Russian Army" and go to Ukraine for "vacation" lie. Not "Russian" patrol getting "lost".



Well, you are right only partly.

It is really a civil war, and the level of support of the union with Russia is actually high throughout Eastern and Southern Ukraine.


----------



## Stratford57

We won't argue with you, you've pretty much shown your level, Esay. Nothing new to me, basically all the Ukrainian "patriots" are at the same level with you. And just because those "patriots" are so stupid and greedy, they want to take everything for granted and allowed the West to fool them, showing a piece of cheese in a mousetrap,  they have to share the blame for the situation in the artificial project of *Uk-Ruin*, which is in such a shit hole now.

And your sweet dream about European integration *IS* chimerical; you, probably realize it, but afraid to admit. That what must have made you mad, ha?


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly.



If Russia would SEND army into Ukraine, the war would end in 5 days, like with Georgia, or in 24h like with Crimea... But unfortunately, Putin is not enough Putin...


----------



## Bleipriester

Stratford57 said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please make proper quotations? I can´t quote you because that would just increase the confusion. The links to the quoted posts are automatically included, anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry, that's what I get from the system when I push "quote" and then "insert the quotes". Do you know, what I am doing wrong? That's what I  have been doing before and it always worked, but recently just doesn't work any more...
Click to expand...

Now, its fine again. That is what matters.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Russia would not send it's army into Ukraine the war would end quickly. This is not civil war in Ukraine that can sustain itself. It relies of Russian invasion. Russia is the aggressor trying to rebuild old USSR.
> Here is proof everyone has wanted to see. Russian troops in Ukraine. Russian military unit and active duty traveling from base in Russia to combat in Ukraine. Not just "volunteers" who "quit Russian Army" and go to Ukraine for "vacation" lie. Not "Russian" patrol getting "lost".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you are right only partly.
> 
> It is really a civil war, and the level of support of the union with Russia is actually high throughout Eastern and Southern Ukraine.
Click to expand...


If it's really a civil war, mr. ukrop, let the Peter Ripper be a man with balls. Don't beg handouts from USA and Europe  Fight with Donbass rebels face to face, not to kill civilian. Solve this problem with your own forces, without complaints, full of lies...


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Long drawn out politicized rants will not change the fact that new proof of Russian invasion of Ukraine has become readily available to the general public. Putin is violating basic international law and lying about it. He has been exposed and caught. Lecturing people about you perception of history will not change the facts being presented that show Russians coming into Ukraine for the purpose of killing Ukrainians.
> youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso



Hm, just explain me, how Russian can separate Ukrainians from other Russian people on Ukraine to kill them?


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> But in your fucked head there is only Nazis and Putin-saviour. And now fuck off.



 If you are don't lie, why are you so nervious?


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> If you are don't lie, why are you so nervious?



Show exactly where I lied. With citation from my posts.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Fight with Donbass rebels face to face, not to kill civilian. Solve this problem with your own forces, without complaints, full of lies...



I don’t know whether there is a reason to tell you that, but I will tell you – not all Ukrainians support so-called ATO.


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are don't lie, why are you so nervious?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show exactly where I lied. With citation from my posts.
Click to expand...

You know, Sbiker, that Esay may be even honest, just not particularly smart and obviously deeply brainwashed by Ukrainian and/or Western Media.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are don't lie, why are you so nervious?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show exactly where I lied. With citation from my posts.
Click to expand...


At least, you call another Nazi "drang nah osten" expansion as "civil war", but what about a reality. In reality - Ukraine tries to occupy the media space all over the world. If you are really a great country with a great history and economics, enough to be a part of Europe (what you declare on every corner), why are you playing beggars, asking gifts both from USA & Europe and Russia. Forget about historically Russian regiones, make your own 'european' economic breakthrough. Pay own your debts and make your life by yourself, like adults.


----------



## Sbiker

Stratford57 said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are don't lie, why are you so nervious?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show exactly where I lied. With citation from my posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know, Sbiker, that Esay may be even honest, just not particularly smart and obviously deeply brainwashed by Ukrainian and/or Western Media.
Click to expand...


I think we're, like the all people all over the world, brainwashed, but from different sources. We can only seek the truth by learning history and by listening different opinions (and maybe have a tasty discuss )). As for me, at this board I prefer to read news about America... But offcourse, I suppose I can explain here what I know or think about my local situations and facts (including Ukraine) too...


----------



## Camp

Stratford57 said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please make proper quotations? I can´t quote you because that would just increase the confusion. The links to the quoted posts are automatically included, anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry, that's what I get from the system when I push "quote". Do you know, what I am doing wrong?
Click to expand...




Sbiker said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long drawn out politicized rants will not change the fact that new proof of Russian invasion of Ukraine has become readily available to the general public. Putin is violating basic international law and lying about it. He has been exposed and caught. Lecturing people about you perception of history will not change the facts being presented that show Russians coming into Ukraine for the purpose of killing Ukrainians.
> youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hm, just explain me, how Russian can separate Ukrainians from other Russian people on Ukraine to kill them?
Click to expand...

Keep Russian troops like in video out of Ukraine. No reason to separate Ukraine from Russian. People who live in Ukraine are Ukraine. If they want to be Russian they should go to Russian and get out of Ukraine. Simple really. No reason for soldiers in Russian army to be in Ukraine.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> At least, you call another Nazi "drang nah osten" expansion as "civil war", but what about a reality.



You may call it as you wish. If you don’t want me to call it ‘a civil war’, I will call it ‘an antiterrorist operation’.



Sbiker said:


> If you are really a great country with a great history and economics, enough to be a part of Europe (what you declare on every corner), why are you playing beggars, asking gifts both from USA & Europe and Russia.



Because we are not a great country, our economy is in tatters, and without gifts we couldn’t make ends meet. We must do many things in order to have our economic breakthrough.

It would be better if you looked at your own country instead. There are no economic problems? Where would Russia be now without its oil and gas deposits?



Sbiker said:


> Forget about historically Russian regiones



I think that not all regions Russia has now may be called historically Russian ones, right?


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please make proper quotations? I can´t quote you because that would just increase the confusion. The links to the quoted posts are automatically included, anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry, that's what I get from the system when I push "quote". Do you know, what I am doing wrong?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long drawn out politicized rants will not change the fact that new proof of Russian invasion of Ukraine has become readily available to the general public. Putin is violating basic international law and lying about it. He has been exposed and caught. Lecturing people about you perception of history will not change the facts being presented that show Russians coming into Ukraine for the purpose of killing Ukrainians.
> youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hm, just explain me, how Russian can separate Ukrainians from other Russian people on Ukraine to kill them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Keep Russian troops like in video out of Ukraine. No reason to separate Ukraine from Russian. People who live in Ukraine are Ukraine.
Click to expand...


It's a gold words. But why Kiev's Nazi call the Donbass' etnically Ukraininan children 'pro-RUSSIAN rebels'? Donbass is not Ukraine? Good, let the Ukraine leaves the Donbass alone!



> If they want to be Russian they should go to Russian and get out of Ukraine.



They trying to do it! Why do you think, Kiev started so-called "ATO" about civilians of Donbass? Because all the Donbass want to be Russia, with all civilian and combatants...



> Simple really. No reason for soldiers in Russian army to be in Ukraine.


You are truth, but cynical... 

But about video... Do you know about last 10-year reform in Russian army? All regular Russian soldiers look like on this photo, with digit uniform. 






Soldiers on video - just different kind of volunteers: retired officers, freelancers, cossacs..


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least, you call another Nazi "drang nah osten" expansion as "civil war", but what about a reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You may call it as you wish. If you don’t want me to call it ‘a civil war’, I will call it ‘an antiterrorist operation’.
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are really a great country with a great history and economics, enough to be a part of Europe (what you declare on every corner), why are you playing beggars, asking gifts both from USA & Europe and Russia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because we are not a great country, our economy is in tatters, and without gifts we couldn’t make ends meet. We must do many things in order to have our economic breakthrough.
Click to expand...


... but spend all of your money to the "Antiterrorist operation"? Where's logic?
And where's terrorists? Show me at least one terroristic act in Kiev, or somewhere else, performed by these people.... 



> It would be better if you looked at your own country instead. There are no economic problems? Where would Russia be now without its oil and gas deposits?



At Russia? Economic problems? WHAT? Russia took all debts of USSR, including Ukrainian, and already paid it. 
And to envy of Russian resources, you should keep better yours...  



> I think that not all regions Russia has now may be called historically Russian ones, right?



Not all. I don't talk about all. Only about historically Russian ones.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> ... but spend all of your money to the "Antiterrorist operation"? Where's logic?
> And where's terrorists? Show me at least one terroristic act in Kiev, or somewhere else, performed by these people....



Oh, come on. They captured Ukrainian military bases, warehouses with arms, blew up bridges in Southern regions, and so on. I think you have the same Google as I do, so it won’t take the trouble to read about it. So-called ‘ополченцы’ have done enough to be sent on uranium mines or something like that, you needn’t worry.



Sbiker said:


> At Russia? Economic problems? WHAT? Russia took all debts of USSR, including Ukrainian, and already paid it.
> And to envy of Russian resources, you should keep better yours...



Of course, you are right! What problems? There were no collapse of the rubble, economic downturn, and the like. There were no collapse of the prices of oil, and of course Russian economy isn’t dependent on it. Everything is okay. It was only my dream.

Envy? No. I am trying to tell you that it would be better if your country developed mechanical engineering for example, rather than being stuck to the pump. 



Sbiker said:


> Not all. I don't talk about all. Only about historically Russian ones.



I am talking about the regions which are in Russia now and which may be called not historically Russian regions.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Russia took all debts of USSR, including Ukrainian, and already paid it.



Oh, it is great. Good boys. We can give you an opportunity to do the same once more. Contact us, do not be shy!


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Russia took all debts of USSR, including Ukrainian, and already paid it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it is great. Good boys. We can give you an opportunity to do the same once more. Contact us, do not be shy!
Click to expand...


Hey, Americans! Continue to give credits and gifts to Ukriane - you should hear this words at your address too ))))


----------



## Indofred

Camp said:


> There are no western weapons littering the battlefields in Ukraine



That's good to know - pity it's a lie.

US Congress Earmarks 200 Million for Weapons for Ukraine



> KIEV, May 16, 2015 (Ukrinform) - The lower chamber of the US Congress has passed a bill that approves defense budget in the amount of $612 billion in the new fiscal year. The budget provides $200 million of aid to Ukraine, in particular in the form of lethal weapons.
> 
> The vote in the House of Representatives was held on Friday, an Ukrinform correspondent reported from the United States.



Funny how Ukrainian troops speak American English.


----------



## Camp

Indofred said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no western weapons littering the battlefields in Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's good to know - pity it's a lie.
> 
> US Congress Earmarks 200 Million for Weapons for Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KIEV, May 16, 2015 (Ukrinform) - The lower chamber of the US Congress has passed a bill that approves defense budget in the amount of $612 billion in the new fiscal year. The budget provides $200 million of aid to Ukraine, in particular in the form of lethal weapons.
> 
> The vote in the House of Representatives was held on Friday, an Ukrinform correspondent reported from the United States.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how Ukrainian troops speak American English.
Click to expand...

There is no lie in my comment you piece of shit. Congress has appropriated the funds but the US has not provided lethal weapons. And the comment I made was that there were no western weapons littering the battlefields.
The English speaking guy could be anyone. He could be a Ukrainian guy has lived in the US or Canada for a long time. Maybe since he was a kid. There are lots of Ukrainians that are living in America and have lived here for long lengths of time.


----------



## Indofred

Camp said:


> . He could be a Ukrainian guy has lived in the US or Canada for a long time. Maybe since he was a kid. There are lots of Ukrainians that are living in America and have lived here for long lengths of time.



Yes, all Ukrainians reply in American accented English when they're spoken to in local languages.
I believe that - NOT


----------



## Indofred

Hang on a moment - weren't all these lies used to explain how there were no American troops in Vietnam?


----------



## Camp

Indofred said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> . He could be a Ukrainian guy has lived in the US or Canada for a long time. Maybe since he was a kid. There are lots of Ukrainians that are living in America and have lived here for long lengths of time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, all Ukrainians reply in American accented English when they're spoken to in local languages.
> I believe that - NOT
Click to expand...

There is no issue against an American citizen joining the legitimate army of a foreign nation. The video evidence I provided is not about an individual joining an army. This is why when Russian soldiers are found in Ukraine, Russia claims they are volunteers. When troops that could be proven to be active soldiers, they were claimed to be lost and wandered into Ukraine by mistake. The video evidence now available is very different. It proves active duty soldiers in a common unit, specifically an armored tank unit,  operating in Ukraine. That is what Putin has been trying to keep secret and got caught at. Who would have guessed young soldiers taking photo of themselves for posting on social media exposed the lie beyond defense. You silly people can make pretend it is no big deal, not important and will go unnoticed. See how that works.


----------



## Indofred

Camp said:


> There is no issue against an American citizen joining the legitimate army of a foreign nation.



Unless he was sent there by the US government.
These lies were used to prove there were no American combat troops there.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Hey, Americans! Continue to give credits and gifts to Ukriane - you should hear this words at your address too ))))



Not exactly. Americans, give credits to Ukraine – Russia will repay them later as it did some time ago.

And of course Russia did so only according to its good will. Though there was so-called ‘null agreement’ (I don’t know how it sounds correctly in English), but this agreement exists only in brainwashed heads, of course.


----------



## hipeter924

Isis has nothing to do with it.

The Crimean Tartars might distrust/allegedly hate Russia and the rebels, but to suggest anyone in Ukraine, Russia or Crimea is going to join ISIS (or adopt their tactics) is a bit extreme.

There are five major factions:
1. The far-right (right-sector, neo nazis,etc).
2. Donbass rebels.
3. Ukrainian government coalition parties.
4. President Petro Poroshenko and his cronies.
5. The Ukrainian oligarchs.
At times these factions might support each other, and other times fight each other.

Edit: Though it seems that Petro's shining armor is fading, and he looks no better than the corrupt people he claims to be clearing out: Ukraine parliament fires powerful security chief Business Standard News


> Nalyvaychenko is said to have refused and then launched a political counter-offensive that saw the prosecutor general's office accused of covering up corruption and illegal money making schemes operated by its most senior personnel.
> 
> He accused a former deputy prosecutor general of illicitly owning a chain of filling stations whose storage tanker exploded near Kiev last week. The disaster killed five people and set off the region's biggest fire in decades.
> 
> Poroshenko then cancelled Nalyvaychenko's planned visit to Washington and ordered him to show up at the prosecutor general's office for questioning at the start of the week.


----------



## hipeter924

Indofred said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no issue against an American citizen joining the legitimate army of a foreign nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless he was sent there by the US government.
> These lies were used to prove there were no American combat troops there.
Click to expand...

Has the US ever denied that it is sending troops to Ukraine or that it has supported training?

It is all pretty in the open what the US is up to:
From 2014: Pentagon wants to send military trainers to Ukraine TheHill


> The Pentagon said Friday that it plans to send troops to train Ukrainian forces next year as the country faces continued aggression from pro-Russia separatists.
> 
> According to the plan, which must be approved by Congress, *soldiers stationed in Europe or from the California National Guard would train and equip* four companies and one tactical headquarters of the Ukrainian national guard.


 Which is what happened, so...how is this 'lying'?


----------



## hipeter924

Indofred said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no western weapons littering the battlefields in Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's good to know - pity it's a lie.
> 
> US Congress Earmarks 200 Million for Weapons for Ukraine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KIEV, May 16, 2015 (Ukrinform) - The lower chamber of the US Congress has passed a bill that approves defense budget in the amount of $612 billion in the new fiscal year. The budget provides $200 million of aid to Ukraine, in particular in the form of lethal weapons.
> 
> The vote in the House of Representatives was held on Friday, an Ukrinform correspondent reported from the United States.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how Ukrainian troops speak American English.
Click to expand...

None of this is surprising or denied.

Since 2014, the US has mentioned that it would be sending troops and advisers* in 2015 to train the Ukrainian National Guard, and so on.

*The US does employ private contractors, so the video was correct in the assumption there could be private contractors there like Blackwater (now called Academi).


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Not exactly. Americans, give credits to Ukraine – Russia will repay them later as it did some time ago.



Typical European mentality, yeah?


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Typical European mentality, yeah?



Yeah. And imagine that those people were supposed to be part of a union with Russia. It is terrible. You definitely should be grateful to the Americans for such things never happened.


----------



## hipeter924

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, Americans! Continue to give credits and gifts to Ukriane - you should hear this words at your address too ))))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not exactly. Americans, give credits to Ukraine – *Russia will repay them later as it did some time ago.*
> 
> And of course Russia did so only according to its good will. Though there was so-called ‘null agreement’ (I don’t know how it sounds correctly in English), but this agreement exists only in brainwashed heads, of course.
Click to expand...

Why wait? The World Bank, ECB and IMF are such lovely bedfellows, as Greece found out after they accepted the bailout money: Greece faces banking crisis after eurozone meeting breaks down World news The Guardian


> Greece is facing a full-blown banking crisis after a meeting of eurozone finance ministers broke down in acrimony and recrimination on Thursday evening, bringing the prospect of Greek exit from the eurozone a step nearer.
> 
> Some €2bn of deposits have been withdrawn from Greek banks so far this week – including a record €1bn yesterday – triggering fears that a breakdown in talks would spark a further flight of funds. The German leader Angela Merkel, French president François Hollande and Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras agreed to stage an emergency EU summit on Monday as a last critical attempt to prevent Greece going bankrupt. A representative of the European Central Bank told the meeting it was unsure whether Greek banks would have the funds to be able to open on Monday.


----------



## Indofred

hipeter924 said:


> The US does employ private contractors,



There are no American combat troops in Laos...... sorry, Ukraine.
Just the CIA and mercs - thousands of them.


----------



## hipeter924

Indofred said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The US does employ private contractors,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are no American combat troops in Laos...... sorry, Ukraine.
> Just the CIA and mercs - thousands of them.
Click to expand...

Vietnam =/= Ukraine. No Americans have died fighting the Donbass rebels. The US didn't send CIA, it sent US troops from Nato bases and/or National Guard Units to train and equip Ukrainian National Guard,etc.


----------



## Indofred

hipeter924 said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The US does employ private contractors,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are no American combat troops in Laos...... sorry, Ukraine.
> Just the CIA and mercs - thousands of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Vietnam =/= Ukraine. No Americans have died fighting the Donbass rebels. The US didn't send CIA, it sent US troops from Nato bases and/or National Guard Units to train and equip Ukrainian National Guard,etc.
Click to expand...


So we keep being told - but how come Ukraine's troops speak English with American accents? The video is clear evidence of something going on.
When there's a smell, you commonly find a turd nearby.


----------



## hipeter924

Indofred said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The US does employ private contractors,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are no American combat troops in Laos...... sorry, Ukraine.
> Just the CIA and mercs - thousands of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Vietnam =/= Ukraine. No Americans have died fighting the Donbass rebels. The US didn't send CIA, it sent US troops from Nato bases and/or National Guard Units to train and equip Ukrainian National Guard,etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So we keep being told - *but how come Ukraine's troops speak English with American accents*? The video is clear evidence of something going on.
> When there's a smell, you commonly find a turd nearby.
Click to expand...

 Even that video admits that they are most likely military trainers or private contractors.

What the video doesn't say is that the US said in 2014 that it would train Ukrainian National Guard in 2015, and that this is going on near a Ukrainian National Guard installation.


----------



## ESay

Indofred said:


> So we keep being told - but how come Ukraine's troops speak English with American accents? The video is clear evidence of something going on.
> When there's a smell, you commonly find a turd nearby.



How about Russian servicemen who were captured in Luhansk region some time ago? Erofeev and Aleksandrov.

Most likely their acknowledgement has been received by the means of tortures which Ukrainian bandero-Nazi-fascist junta widely uses? They are not servicemen; they are just volunteers who came to Ukraine at the behest of the heart, right?


----------



## hipeter924

ESay said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we keep being told - but how come Ukraine's troops speak English with American accents? The video is clear evidence of something going on.
> When there's a smell, you commonly find a turd nearby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about Russian servicemen who were captured in Luhansk region some time ago? Erofeev and Aleksandrov.
> 
> Most likely their acknowledgement has been received by the means of tortures which Ukrainian bandero-Nazi-fascist junta widely uses? They are not servicemen; they are just volunteers who came to Ukraine at the behest of the heart, right?
Click to expand...

Just another proxy-war ESay. In a proxy-war both sides have intermediaries, even said proxy's can be enemies of their defacto or declared backers. 

At this point, it doesn't really matter who is 'right' or 'wrong', as moral arguments rarely win proxy war as it is not conventional warfare. 

As close as the USSR and the USA came to an actual war between the militaries of the two powers, was Korea - which ended in a bloody stalemate. 

In conventional warfare, it is clear. You have several armies of x countries, and they fight it out. But in a messed up scenario like Ukraine, there are no 'victors', as it isn't like anyone could call a division between east and west, sanctions between major powers, and bloodshed a 'victory'. 

Ukrainians are just lucky to live day by day, and logistically, I doubt they care whether it is 'Donbass' or Kiev, so long as they give you food and a bed to sleep in.


----------



## ESay

hipeter924 said:


> Just another proxy-war ESay. In a proxy-war both sides have intermediaries, even said proxy's can be enemies of their defacto or declared backers.
> 
> At this point, it doesn't really matter who is 'right' or 'wrong', as moral arguments rarely win proxy war as it is not conventional warfare.
> 
> As close as the USSR and the USA came to an actual war between the militaries of the two powers, was Korea - which ended in a bloody stalemate.
> 
> In conventional warfare, it is clear. You have several armies of x countries, and they fight it out. But in a messed up scenario like Ukraine, there are no 'victors', as it isn't like anyone could call a division between east and west, sanctions between major powers, and bloodshed a 'victory'.
> 
> Ukrainians are just lucky to live day by day, and logistically, I doubt they care whether it is 'Donbass' or Kiev, so long as they give you food and a bed to sleep in.



I think that moral arguments can’t win any war. The winner is a side which economically, militarily, and technologically more advanced than its enemy. No one was able to crush Hitler only using their moral superiority, rather than tanks and military planes.

In every war there are winners and losers; a proxy war isn’t an exception.

You are talking about a division between east and west. If you mean a division between eastern and western parts of Ukraine, then it have existed throughout many years. At some point this division took the form of open hostility and violence. But this was inevitable.

If you are talking about the West and the East, then it depends on what you call the East – Russia, China, Middle East, India or them as a whole. Basically, I don’t see any division between the West and the East just because there isn’t the East as a whole; it consists of many parts, some of them are allies to the US, the other – enemies.


----------



## Indofred

ESay said:


> I think that moral arguments can’t win any war



I agree - or there wouldn't be a war in the first place. Wars of this nature happen because of political stupidity and/or greed.
Someone is making a fast buck, and screw the poor sods who die for their profits.


----------



## Indofred

ESay said:


> How about Russian servicemen who were captured in Luhansk region some time ago? Erofeev and Aleksandrov.



I believe there are very probably Russian troops in the area, and on active duty.
I'd be amazed if there weren't.
However, apart from Russia, no one says otherwise so there's no point to debate.

What about Americans over there?


----------



## ESay

Indofred said:


> I believe there are very probably Russian troops in the area, and on active duty.
> I'd be amazed if there weren't.
> However, apart from Russia, no one says otherwise so there's no point to debate.



You live in Indonesia and you think that there are Russian troops on active duty in Ukraine? It is unbelievable. You in Indonesia are totally brainwashed by Ukrainian media!
(It is a joke).



Indofred said:


> What about Americans over there?



There are American trainers in Ukraine. In all probability there are also American military advisors.


----------



## Igrok_

Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military people and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresively in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.

Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotiations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.

Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.


----------



## irosie91

ESay said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there are very probably Russian troops in the area, and on active duty.
> I'd be amazed if there weren't.
> However, apart from Russia, no one says otherwise so there's no point to debate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You live in Indonesia and you think that there are Russian troops on active duty in Ukraine? It is unbelievable. You in Indonesia are totally brainwashed by Ukrainian media!
> (It is a joke).
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about Americans over there?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are American trainers in Ukraine. In all probability there are also American military advisors.
Click to expand...



It is a mistake to underestimate the filth and  stench of ISLAM in the UKRAINE----in fact,   CRIMEA  is the epicenter of that filth -----the element stabbing the eastern orthodox and catholic Ukraine in the back.


----------



## Camp

Igrok_ said:


> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.


All countries sign treaties and make promises to follow certain rules. If they did not there would be more difficulties and wars than we already have. When countries break rules and cause wars, the world responds. Russia has broken international laws and broken promises to follow specific rules. Sanctions are being used to punish and convince Russia to stop breaking these agreements and rules. Internationally recognized nation of Ukraine is receiving aid from other countries to protect it's independence. If Russian weapons and troops were not crossing the border their would be no sanctions or aid. Those are the rules. The west is following rules and Russia is breaking them. If everyone behaved like Russia their would be wars everywhere.


----------



## Igrok_

Camp said:


> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.
> 
> 
> 
> All countries sign treaties and make promises to follow certain rules. If they did not there would be more difficulties and wars than we already have. When countries break rules and cause wars, the world responds. Russia has broken international laws and broken promises to follow specific rules. Sanctions are being used to punish and convince Russia to stop breaking these agreements and rules. Internationally recognized nation of Ukraine is receiving aid from other countries to protect it's independence. If Russian weapons and troops were not crossing the border their would be no sanctions or aid. Those are the rules. The west is following rules and Russia is breaking them. If everyone behaved like Russia their would be wars everywhere.
Click to expand...

Hm, what is the point following the rules, if this rules injure your country and could lead people to death or loosing their freedom? If western world with Ukraine wants Russia to follow such rules of course it will be war.


----------



## Camp

Igrok_ said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.
> 
> 
> 
> All countries sign treaties and make promises to follow certain rules. If they did not there would be more difficulties and wars than we already have. When countries break rules and cause wars, the world responds. Russia has broken international laws and broken promises to follow specific rules. Sanctions are being used to punish and convince Russia to stop breaking these agreements and rules. Internationally recognized nation of Ukraine is receiving aid from other countries to protect it's independence. If Russian weapons and troops were not crossing the border their would be no sanctions or aid. Those are the rules. The west is following rules and Russia is breaking them. If everyone behaved like Russia their would be wars everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hm, what is the point following the rules, if this rules injure your country and could lead people to death or loosing their freedom? If western world with Ukraine wants Russia to follow such rules of course it will be war.
Click to expand...

Russia had great international power. The boss decided he wanted to be a big shot old style Soviet type leader instead of a statesman and diplomat. He was left in control like some kind of lifetime dictator and his ego got to big. Now Russia has to pay for foolish decisions he has made.


----------



## Igrok_

Camp said:


> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.
> 
> 
> 
> All countries sign treaties and make promises to follow certain rules. If they did not there would be more difficulties and wars than we already have. When countries break rules and cause wars, the world responds. Russia has broken international laws and broken promises to follow specific rules. Sanctions are being used to punish and convince Russia to stop breaking these agreements and rules. Internationally recognized nation of Ukraine is receiving aid from other countries to protect it's independence. If Russian weapons and troops were not crossing the border their would be no sanctions or aid. Those are the rules. The west is following rules and Russia is breaking them. If everyone behaved like Russia their would be wars everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hm, what is the point following the rules, if this rules injure your country and could lead people to death or loosing their freedom? If western world with Ukraine wants Russia to follow such rules of course it will be war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Russia had great international power. The boss decided he wanted to be a big shot old style Soviet type leader instead of a statesman and diplomat. He was left in control like some kind of lifetime dictator and his ego got to big. Now Russia has to pay for foolish decisions he has made.
Click to expand...

It is only the opinion apart from reality and arguments. One may say such thing about Poroshenko or Obama or somebody else.


----------



## Camp

Igrok_ said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.
> 
> 
> 
> All countries sign treaties and make promises to follow certain rules. If they did not there would be more difficulties and wars than we already have. When countries break rules and cause wars, the world responds. Russia has broken international laws and broken promises to follow specific rules. Sanctions are being used to punish and convince Russia to stop breaking these agreements and rules. Internationally recognized nation of Ukraine is receiving aid from other countries to protect it's independence. If Russian weapons and troops were not crossing the border their would be no sanctions or aid. Those are the rules. The west is following rules and Russia is breaking them. If everyone behaved like Russia their would be wars everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hm, what is the point following the rules, if this rules injure your country and could lead people to death or loosing their freedom? If western world with Ukraine wants Russia to follow such rules of course it will be war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Russia had great international power. The boss decided he wanted to be a big shot old style Soviet type leader instead of a statesman and diplomat. He was left in control like some kind of lifetime dictator and his ego got to big. Now Russia has to pay for foolish decisions he has made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is only the opinion apart from reality and arguments. One may say such thing about Poroshenko or Obama or somebody else.
Click to expand...

Elections in Ukraine are were recognized by international authorities, including United Nations. Crimea and separatist areas are not recognized as legitimate.


----------



## Igrok_

Camp said:


> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.
> 
> 
> 
> All countries sign treaties and make promises to follow certain rules. If they did not there would be more difficulties and wars than we already have. When countries break rules and cause wars, the world responds. Russia has broken international laws and broken promises to follow specific rules. Sanctions are being used to punish and convince Russia to stop breaking these agreements and rules. Internationally recognized nation of Ukraine is receiving aid from other countries to protect it's independence. If Russian weapons and troops were not crossing the border their would be no sanctions or aid. Those are the rules. The west is following rules and Russia is breaking them. If everyone behaved like Russia their would be wars everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hm, what is the point following the rules, if this rules injure your country and could lead people to death or loosing their freedom? If western world with Ukraine wants Russia to follow such rules of course it will be war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Russia had great international power. The boss decided he wanted to be a big shot old style Soviet type leader instead of a statesman and diplomat. He was left in control like some kind of lifetime dictator and his ego got to big. Now Russia has to pay for foolish decisions he has made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is only the opinion apart from reality and arguments. One may say such thing about Poroshenko or Obama or somebody else.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Elections in Ukraine are were recognized by international authorities, including United Nations. Crimea and separatist areas are not recognized as legitimate.
Click to expand...

Yes, and...?


----------



## irosie91

I will register a vote----->>>Putin is an over-ambitious slob


----------



## Stratford57

Indofred said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Russian servicemen who were captured in Luhansk region some time ago? Erofeev and Aleksandrov.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there are very probably Russian troops in the area, and on active duty.
> I'd be amazed if there weren't.
> However, apart from Russia, no one says otherwise so there's no point to debate.
> 
> What about Americans over there?
Click to expand...


Indofred, isn't it lovely to watch how Americans and a Ukrainian "patriot" are discussing if there are Russian troops in Ukraine or not. Especially when Ukrainian "patriot" can't wait to sell his Motherland and million people living there just _for 30 silver coins_ for chimerical European integration and   when American "ears" are sticking out of each hole in Ukraine since they initiated, encouraged and sponsored the violent overthrow of elected government. Supplying official Kiev with weapons, having American  "instructors" (who can always become troops), private military companies (Blackwater, etc.), and 100% controlled by Washington Ukrainian government (which wouldn't even fart without  a permit from Washington), they are blaming Russia for "aggression". I find it amazing, you?

Russia and Ukraine (and Belarus) are the same people, they used to live together for centuries in the country called *Kiev Russia* and 25 years  ago have been split by 3 crooks (Yeltsin, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch)  with Washington's blessing. If Russian troops are there it makes sense, what doesn't make sense: what Americans are doing in Ukraine?


----------



## irosie91

Stratford57 said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Russian servicemen who were captured in Luhansk region some time ago? Erofeev and Aleksandrov.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there are very probably Russian troops in the area, and on active duty.
> I'd be amazed if there weren't.
> However, apart from Russia, no one says otherwise so there's no point to debate.
> 
> What about Americans over there?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indofred, isn't it lovely to watch how Americans and a Ukrainian "patriot" are discussing if there are Russian troops in Ukraine or not. Especially when Ukrainian "patriot" can't wait to sell his Motherland and million people living there just _for 30 silver coins_ for chimerical European integration and   when American "ears" are sticking out of each hole in Ukraine since they initiated, encouraged and sponsored the violent overthrow of elected government. Supplying official Kiev with weapons, having American  "instructors" (who can always become troops), private military companies (Blackwater, etc.), and 100% controlled by Washington Ukrainian government (which wouldn't even fart without  a permit from Washington), they are blaming Russia for "aggression". I find it amazing, you?
> 
> Russia and Ukraine (and Belarus) are the same people, they used to live together for centuries in the country called *Kiev Russia* and 25 years  ago have been split by 3 crooks (Yeltsin, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch)  with Washington's blessing. If Russian troops are there it makes sense, what doesn't make sense: what Americans are doing in Ukraine?
Click to expand...


isn't it lovely that Stratford appeals to Freddie    to endorse his idiotic historic revisionism.


----------



## ESay

irosie91 said:


> It is a mistake to underestimate the filth and stench of ISLAM in the UKRAINE----in fact, CRIMEA is the epicenter of that filth -----the element stabbing the eastern orthodox and catholic Ukraine in the back.



Actually I wouldn’t say that Islam has a strong influence in Ukraine (so far, at the very least).

In Crimea the Islamic population isn’t too high so far – 12 per cent of the whole population of Crimea or so. But in the future the Crimean Tatars’ issue may be raised at the top of the agenda and there is no guarantee that this issue will have a peaceful form. Such an issue would be raised even if Crimea remained part of Ukraine. And it is one of the reasons why I grateful to Putin for the annexation.


----------



## irosie91

ESay said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a mistake to underestimate the filth and stench of ISLAM in the UKRAINE----in fact, CRIMEA is the epicenter of that filth -----the element stabbing the eastern orthodox and catholic Ukraine in the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I wouldn’t say that Islam has a strong influence in Ukraine (so far, at the very least).
> 
> In Crimea the Islamic population isn’t too high so far – 12 per cent of the whole population of Crimea or so. But in the future the Crimean Tatars’ issue may be raised at the top of the agenda and there is no guarantee that this issue will have a peaceful form. Such an issue would be raised even if Crimea remained part of Ukraine. And there is one of the reasons why I grateful to Putin for the annexation.
Click to expand...


thanks  Esay------mostly,  I was pulling Freddie's chain regarding his world view. 
......... I will not elaborate at this point


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Igrok_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system, Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.
> 
> 
> 
> All countries sign treaties and make promises to follow certain rules. If they did not there would be more difficulties and wars than we already have. When countries break rules and cause wars, the world responds. Russia has broken international laws and broken promises to follow specific rules. Sanctions are being used to punish and convince Russia to stop breaking these agreements and rules. Internationally recognized nation of Ukraine is receiving aid from other countries to protect it's independence. If Russian weapons and troops were not crossing the border their would be no sanctions or aid. Those are the rules. The west is following rules and Russia is breaking them. If everyone behaved like Russia their would be wars everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hm, what is the point following the rules, if this rules injure your country and could lead people to death or loosing their freedom? If western world with Ukraine wants Russia to follow such rules of course it will be war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Russia had great international power. The boss decided he wanted to be a big shot old style Soviet type leader instead of a statesman and diplomat. He was left in control like some kind of lifetime dictator and his ego got to big. Now Russia has to pay for foolish decisions he has made.
Click to expand...


I have some questions... 

A first, which international laws Russia violate?  We just provided to the Crimea the way of Kosovo.... There's only two violators of law - Ukraine with anti-nazi law and EU with sanctions, proved, I think, only of hard corruption 

If Russia plays an "old Soviet Style", why it has army budget, 10x less than American?  Why do you fear the Russian army? It's just paranoia, or you really know, America trying to do something bypassing international laws? 

You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="Sbiker, post: 11650040, member: 54793"]  [QUOTE ="Igrok_, post: 11642321, member: 52156"] 


Igrok_ said:


> Everybody in Russia knows that Russia supports donbass. Of course by sending military peope and ammo there. What's the point to accuse Russia in that? Why Russia shouldn't do it? NATO is a threat to russian security system
> 
> , Ukraine wants to be the provider of this threats, so Russia absolutely legitible should act aggresivily in response to ukrainian threats, because if Ukraine goes to NATO, it will be late to hit.
> 
> Second, Russia doesn't want Donbass to be independent or even part of it, because the main thing is to prevent Ukraine to be part of NATO, so Russia needs a handle to rule the neighbor country. And this handle is Donbass, which is to have its representatives in ukrainian state government system. That's the motives of Russian Federation and after negotioations in Minsk the only thing that needs Russia is to have them implemented, which means peace, not war.
> 
> Europe needs it too, USA and Ukraine want war and actively prepare to it.





You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway [/QUOTE]


This is a map of Ukraine, red piece on the right is _all Donbass_ (the territory which voted for separating from Ukraine last year) and _only half of it_ is controlled by rebels (the other half is controlled by Ukrainians and it's been like that for a year, 3 million residents in the red spot versus 40 million residents in the other part of Ukraine). If Russian troops were there in Donbass, why do you all think they would not move deeper inside the country? May be because Ukrainian army is so strong and brave?






  Here's what  NATO ex-general Kujat said:

It's lot of speculation. Proof of Russia's involvement with regular force has not come to my attention so far.

For example, the announcement of the Ukrainian President that 23 Russian armed have been destroyed on Ukrainian soil. There are no photos of surviving Russian soldiers nor of killed Russian soldiers.

We have been shown five pictures as a proof that Russian Forces are in the Ukraine. Three of them were marked officially as "on Russian territory". Two of them are marked as "on Ukraine territory". The Russian pictures are marked with the exact location, while the Ukrainian ones have no mention of location and coordinates.

We have to be very careful about what the Ukraine and the West says.
Choose any link you want:

Ex-general NATO has failed blatantly in Ukraine Europe DW.COM 03.09.2014
Top German General Western Evidence of Russian Invasion is Baloney
(video)

German media backs confrontation with Russia over Ukraine - World Socialist Web Site


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> I have some questions...
> 
> A first, which international laws Russia violate?  We just provided to the Crimea the way of Kosovo.... There's only two violators of law - Ukraine with anti-nazi law and EU with sanctions, proved, I think, only of hard corruption
> 
> If Russia plays an "old Soviet Style", why it has army budget, 10x less than American?  Why do you fear the Russian army? It's just paranoia, or you really know, America trying to do something bypassing international laws?
> 
> You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway



Again this stuff about Russian troops in Ukraine. It is boring.
Actually you in Russia can think whatever you want. There are no Russian servicemen in Donbass? Okay, if you say so. It is possible that Erofeev and Alexandrov just got lost. They were landed in a range somewhere in Rostov region and they received an order to go to another range eastward using a super-duper navigation system called Glonass. And it is quite predictable that they found themselves in Ukraine, which is situated to the west of Rostov.

You think that you didn’t violate any law? Okay, maybe you are right. Some others think otherwise. Your action triggered counteraction; it is quite possible to say otherwise – somebody else's action triggered your counteraction. But the result is that that we are all seeing now – tensions between the West and Russia. Who will be a winner of this conflict? Obviously, that side which is economically and technologically stronger that the other, which has greater international influence. And even if Russia were thousand times right, it would change nothing. No one gives a shit about it. The history is written by victors.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have some questions...
> 
> A first, which international laws Russia violate?  We just provided to the Crimea the way of Kosovo.... There's only two violators of law - Ukraine with anti-nazi law and EU with sanctions, proved, I think, only of hard corruption
> 
> If Russia plays an "old Soviet Style", why it has army budget, 10x less than American?  Why do you fear the Russian army? It's just paranoia, or you really know, America trying to do something bypassing international laws?
> 
> You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again this stuff about Russian troops in Ukraine. It is boring.
> Actually you in Russia can think whatever you want. There are no Russian servicemen in Donbass? Okay, if you say so. It is possible that Erofeev and Alexandrov just got lost. They were landed in a range somewhere in Rostov region and they received an order to go to another range eastward using a super-duper navigation system called Glonass. And it is quite predictable that they found themselves in Ukraine, which is situated to the west of Rostov.
> 
> You think that you didn’t violate any law? Okay, maybe you are right. Some others think otherwise. Your action triggered counteraction; it is quite possible to say otherwise – somebody else's action triggered your counteraction. But the result is that that we are all seeing now – tensions between the West and Russia. Who will be a winner of this conflict? Obviously, that side which is economically and technologically stronger that the other, which has greater international influence. And even if Russia were thousand times right, it would change nothing. No one gives a shit about it. The history is written by victors.
Click to expand...


 You can think everything, but no one fascists escapes from Russia anywhere. Economics, politics, international laws - it can be changed or adopted. Except one thing - you took swastika as symbol, you claim Hitler's henchman as national hero, you became fascists - your fate now is short and full of sorrow... Nothing personal, just your personal choice


----------



## Camp

Sbiker said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have some questions...
> 
> A first, which international laws Russia violate?  We just provided to the Crimea the way of Kosovo.... There's only two violators of law - Ukraine with anti-nazi law and EU with sanctions, proved, I think, only of hard corruption
> 
> If Russia plays an "old Soviet Style", why it has army budget, 10x less than American?  Why do you fear the Russian army? It's just paranoia, or you really know, America trying to do something bypassing international laws?
> 
> You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again this stuff about Russian troops in Ukraine. It is boring.
> Actually you in Russia can think whatever you want. There are no Russian servicemen in Donbass? Okay, if you say so. It is possible that Erofeev and Alexandrov just got lost. They were landed in a range somewhere in Rostov region and they received an order to go to another range eastward using a super-duper navigation system called Glonass. And it is quite predictable that they found themselves in Ukraine, which is situated to the west of Rostov.
> 
> You think that you didn’t violate any law? Okay, maybe you are right. Some others think otherwise. Your action triggered counteraction; it is quite possible to say otherwise – somebody else's action triggered your counteraction. But the result is that that we are all seeing now – tensions between the West and Russia. Who will be a winner of this conflict? Obviously, that side which is economically and technologically stronger that the other, which has greater international influence. And even if Russia were thousand times right, it would change nothing. No one gives a shit about it. The history is written by victors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can think everything, but no one fascists escapes from Russia anywhere. Economics, politics, international laws - it can be changed or adopted. Except one thing - you took swastika as symbol, you claim Hitler's henchman as national hero, you became fascists - your fate now is short and full of sorrow... Nothing personal, just your personal choice
Click to expand...

Old propaganda. Elections in Ukraine rejected the right sector. They have strong militia's but most members are nationalist and care nothing about nazi ideology.  Funny, you criticize Ukrainians for celebrating the citizens of Ukraine who joined with Germans to fight Soviet occupiers. It is a reminder of how long Ukraine has fought against Russian invasions occupation and rule in Ukraine. 
You should worry about neo nazi's in Russia. Some of them have been invaders into Ukraine. 

crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnaz.html#int

Believe what you want. Here is a video of right sector volunteers explaining why they join right sector militia to fight Russian invaders.

youtube.com/watch?v=adhA_JSvO1M


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have some questions...
> 
> A first, which international laws Russia violate?  We just provided to the Crimea the way of Kosovo.... There's only two violators of law - Ukraine with anti-nazi law and EU with sanctions, proved, I think, only of hard corruption
> 
> If Russia plays an "old Soviet Style", why it has army budget, 10x less than American?  Why do you fear the Russian army? It's just paranoia, or you really know, America trying to do something bypassing international laws?
> 
> You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again this stuff about Russian troops in Ukraine. It is boring.
> Actually you in Russia can think whatever you want. There are no Russian servicemen in Donbass? Okay, if you say so. It is possible that Erofeev and Alexandrov just got lost. They were landed in a range somewhere in Rostov region and they received an order to go to another range eastward using a super-duper navigation system called Glonass. And it is quite predictable that they found themselves in Ukraine, which is situated to the west of Rostov.
> 
> You think that you didn’t violate any law? Okay, maybe you are right. Some others think otherwise. Your action triggered counteraction; it is quite possible to say otherwise – somebody else's action triggered your counteraction. But the result is that that we are all seeing now – tensions between the West and Russia. Who will be a winner of this conflict? Obviously, that side which is economically and technologically stronger that the other, which has greater international influence. And even if Russia were thousand times right, it would change nothing. No one gives a shit about it. The history is written by victors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can think everything, but no one fascists escapes from Russia anywhere. Economics, politics, international laws - it can be changed or adopted. Except one thing - you took swastika as symbol, you claim Hitler's henchman as national hero, you became fascists - your fate now is short and full of sorrow... Nothing personal, just your personal choice
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Old propaganda. Elections in Ukraine rejected the right sector. They have strong militia's but most members are nationalist and care nothing about nazi ideology.  Funny, you criticize Ukrainians for celebrating the citizens of Ukraine who joined with Germans to fight Soviet occupiers. It is a reminder of how long Ukraine has fought against Russian invasions occupation and rule in Ukraine.
> You should worry about neo nazi's in Russia. Some of them have been invaders into Ukraine.
> 
> crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnaz.html#int
> 
> Believe what you want. Here is a video of right sector volunteers explaining why they join right sector militia to fight Russian invaders.
> 
> youtube.com/watch?v=adhA_JSvO1M
Click to expand...


You know - it's not propaganda. It could be slow - to count all of swastika men, "right sector" and other fascist scums. It could be with or without international laws, EU, US or others... It's not principial. You can to propagate any lies, complaints, can be believeable to Americans or anyone... It's no significant. Russia don't play games with fascism. You took swastika - you've signed your sentence. Take it easy, eventually it was your choice


----------



## Camp

Sbiker said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have some questions...
> 
> A first, which international laws Russia violate?  We just provided to the Crimea the way of Kosovo.... There's only two violators of law - Ukraine with anti-nazi law and EU with sanctions, proved, I think, only of hard corruption
> 
> If Russia plays an "old Soviet Style", why it has army budget, 10x less than American?  Why do you fear the Russian army? It's just paranoia, or you really know, America trying to do something bypassing international laws?
> 
> You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again this stuff about Russian troops in Ukraine. It is boring.
> Actually you in Russia can think whatever you want. There are no Russian servicemen in Donbass? Okay, if you say so. It is possible that Erofeev and Alexandrov just got lost. They were landed in a range somewhere in Rostov region and they received an order to go to another range eastward using a super-duper navigation system called Glonass. And it is quite predictable that they found themselves in Ukraine, which is situated to the west of Rostov.
> 
> You think that you didn’t violate any law? Okay, maybe you are right. Some others think otherwise. Your action triggered counteraction; it is quite possible to say otherwise – somebody else's action triggered your counteraction. But the result is that that we are all seeing now – tensions between the West and Russia. Who will be a winner of this conflict? Obviously, that side which is economically and technologically stronger that the other, which has greater international influence. And even if Russia were thousand times right, it would change nothing. No one gives a shit about it. The history is written by victors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can think everything, but no one fascists escapes from Russia anywhere. Economics, politics, international laws - it can be changed or adopted. Except one thing - you took swastika as symbol, you claim Hitler's henchman as national hero, you became fascists - your fate now is short and full of sorrow... Nothing personal, just your personal choice
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Old propaganda. Elections in Ukraine rejected the right sector. They have strong militia's but most members are nationalist and care nothing about nazi ideology.  Funny, you criticize Ukrainians for celebrating the citizens of Ukraine who joined with Germans to fight Soviet occupiers. It is a reminder of how long Ukraine has fought against Russian invasions occupation and rule in Ukraine.
> You should worry about neo nazi's in Russia. Some of them have been invaders into Ukraine.
> 
> crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnaz.html#int
> 
> Believe what you want. Here is a video of right sector volunteers explaining why they join right sector militia to fight Russian invaders.
> 
> youtube.com/watch?v=adhA_JSvO1M
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know - it's not propaganda. It could be slow - to count all of swastika men, "right sector" and other fascist scums. It could be with or without international laws, EU, US or others... It's not principial. You can to propagate any lies, complaints, can be believeable to Americans or anyone... It's no significant. Russia don't play games with fascism. You took swastika - you've signed your sentence. Take it easy, eventually it was your choice
Click to expand...

Do you know what means "hollow threats"?
 For you to deny fascism in Russia is comical.  Fascist are chasing down gay people in Russia to make violence against them.
Keep listening to your state propaganda and Dictator Putin. Make sure you have many potato bags and grain in storage under your bed and in your closet. Fill your shelves now while you can. Soon you will be like people left in Donetsk and surviving on canned mystery meat, lowest quality Tushunka, dried junk fish and whatever is left in the backs of the warehouses for Papa Putin to give you. Better have good gardens this season or make friends with people who do.


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have some questions...
> 
> A first, which international laws Russia violate?  We just provided to the Crimea the way of Kosovo.... There's only two violators of law - Ukraine with anti-nazi law and EU with sanctions, proved, I think, only of hard corruption
> 
> If Russia plays an "old Soviet Style", why it has army budget, 10x less than American?  Why do you fear the Russian army? It's just paranoia, or you really know, America trying to do something bypassing international laws?
> 
> You fear army, than "present in Ukraine" and cannot capture this small territory during the year? Wow, I understand - it's proved army from two brave men - Erofeev & Alexandrov... Such a big army - fear it anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again this stuff about Russian troops in Ukraine. It is boring.
> Actually you in Russia can think whatever you want. There are no Russian servicemen in Donbass? Okay, if you say so. It is possible that Erofeev and Alexandrov just got lost. They were landed in a range somewhere in Rostov region and they received an order to go to another range eastward using a super-duper navigation system called Glonass. And it is quite predictable that they found themselves in Ukraine, which is situated to the west of Rostov.
> 
> You think that you didn’t violate any law? Okay, maybe you are right. Some others think otherwise. Your action triggered counteraction; it is quite possible to say otherwise – somebody else's action triggered your counteraction. But the result is that that we are all seeing now – tensions between the West and Russia. Who will be a winner of this conflict? Obviously, that side which is economically and technologically stronger that the other, which has greater international influence. And even if Russia were thousand times right, it would change nothing. No one gives a shit about it. The history is written by victors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can think everything, but no one fascists escapes from Russia anywhere. Economics, politics, international laws - it can be changed or adopted. Except one thing - you took swastika as symbol, you claim Hitler's henchman as national hero, you became fascists - your fate now is short and full of sorrow... Nothing personal, just your personal choice
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Old propaganda. Elections in Ukraine rejected the right sector. They have strong militia's but most members are nationalist and care nothing about nazi ideology.  Funny, you criticize Ukrainians for celebrating the citizens of Ukraine who joined with Germans to fight Soviet occupiers. It is a reminder of how long Ukraine has fought against Russian invasions occupation and rule in Ukraine.
> You should worry about neo nazi's in Russia. Some of them have been invaders into Ukraine.
> 
> crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnaz.html#int
> 
> Believe what you want. Here is a video of right sector volunteers explaining why they join right sector militia to fight Russian invaders.
> 
> youtube.com/watch?v=adhA_JSvO1M
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know - it's not propaganda. It could be slow - to count all of swastika men, "right sector" and other fascist scums. It could be with or without international laws, EU, US or others... It's not principial. You can to propagate any lies, complaints, can be believeable to Americans or anyone... It's no significant. Russia don't play games with fascism. You took swastika - you've signed your sentence. Take it easy, eventually it was your choice
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you know what means "hollow threats"?
> For you to deny fascism in Russia is comical.  Fascist are chasing down gay people in Russia to make violence against them.
> Keep listening to your state propaganda and Dictator Putin. Make sure you have many potato bags and grain in storage under your bed and in your closet. Fill your shelves now while you can. Soon you will be like people left in Donetsk and surviving on canned mystery meat, lowest quality Tushunka, dried junk fish and whatever is left in the backs of the warehouses for Papa Putin to give you. Better have good gardens this season or make friends with people who do.
Click to expand...


How emotional!  
As a gay people... If 5 gays want to _public_propagate_ their way of life, and 200 traditionalists don't want it - it' just a democracy... And real democracy is a good idea and would stay in Russia in spite of any sanctions, political games, world lobbies etc. But if you, West Ukrainians, can change any idea for the bag of potato or lower quality "Tushunka" - it's really only your problems... I really don't want to teach you how to live without complaints and handouts, just keep your poverty without our borders...


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> You can think everything, but no one fascists escapes from Russia anywhere.


Very funny, thanks. How much fascist has Russia put behind bars, let’s say, in the last twenty years?



Sbiker said:


> you took swastika as symbol


Swastika as a symbol? I even won’t ask you where you got this bullshit. Though, as I wrote above, you in Russia can think everything you want.



Sbiker said:


> Nothing personal, just your personal choice


Yeah, you are right. The more I read Russian patriots like you, the more I am convinced that there is no common future between my country and yours. Thank God there was the Euromaidan.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can think everything, but no one fascists escapes from Russia anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Very funny, thanks. How much fascist has Russia put behind bars, let’s say, in the last twenty years?
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> you took swastika as symbol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Swastika as a symbol? I even won’t ask you where you got this bullshit. Though, as I wrote above, you in Russia can think everything you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, just your personal choice
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, you are right. The more I read Russian patriots like you, the more I am convinced that there is no common future between my country and yours. Thank God there was the Euromaidan.
Click to expand...


Good. Leave the Donbass alone and go wherever you want. Beg the tips from EU, not from Russia


----------



## Camp

In today's news the EU is ready to add six months to sanctions against Russia that were scheduled to be over in July if Putin showed cooperation and lived up to Minsk agreement and promises he made.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Good. Leave the Donbass alone and go wherever you want. Beg the tips from EU, not from Russia



We would leave Donbass alone with a great pleasure if we were sure that there would be no desire of rebels to go forward. Moreover, an example of Donbass being left alone will encourage ‘fighters of fascism’ in the other regions of Southern and Eastern Ukraine to create their own ‘people’s republics’. As you understand we can’t afford that – there situated the main industrial enterprises, power plants (including two nuclear ones; one of them – Zaporizhzhya NPP – is the largest nuclear power plant in Europe), access to the sea, etc.


----------



## Stratford57

Ukrainian "patriots" are very special: during WW2 when Hitler came to Western Ukraine, they welcomed him with bread and salt and were fighting on his side. For 24 years since the USSR has collapsed they have been celebrating their "independence" so grandiosely  every year but have not achieved or created ANYTHING since that (though Yanukovich has built several good roads and new airports before Euro-2012; however the bran new airport in Donetsk has been already
	
 destroyed by Ukrainians' shelling last year). Now they are licking the feet of EU and USA, dreaming for being adopted by them. But in a couple of years when USA squeezes all the juice from  them and abandons Ukraine (just like they left Iraq, Libya, Syria in ruins), whose feet do you think those Ukrainian "patriots" will be ready to lick and to beg for food and money? Something tells me: it will be their big sister Russia...

Their life and the life of all their artificially created country would be so much better if they followed one simple rule: "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."


----------



## Sbiker

Stratford57 said:


> But in a couple of years when USA squeezes all the juice



I think USA could not.. Look at their posts - greed of West Ukrainians is strongest, for the something good they will not only lick the foots of any... US hope to make some money by Ukraine's lethal weapon supply, but they can't imagine, how it will be. And it will be like with native Ukrainian weapon - they sold much of it to rebels. It was easy for Russia - not to supply rebels, just gave them some money... I think, about 90-95% of lethal american weapon would not be used in Donbass... Some of them would buy Russia for learning, much of them would emerge in ISIS and become a problem for US forces and civilians...


----------



## Decus

Corruption is at the heart of Russian society and most Russians wish this was not the case, but Russians endure because they are fatalistic.

The below link is a short book review by P.J. O'Rourke that really provides a flavour of what Russian life is like:

_"In Russia, “corrupt” is not an adjective. Corrupt is a noun, a proper noun, the word for the name and nature of the place"_

The Land of Magical Thinking Inside Putin s Russia World Affairs Journal

If you have the courage to read the article you will understand that nothing that Putin says can be trusted.

.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> I think USA could not.. Look at their posts - greed of West Ukrainians is strongest, for the something good they will not only lick the foots of any... US hope to make some money by Ukraine's lethal weapon supply, but they can't imagine, how it will be. And it will be like with native Ukrainian weapon - they sold much of it to rebels. It was easy for Russia - not to supply rebels, just gave them some money... I think, about 90-95% of lethal american weapon would not be used in Donbass... Some of them would buy Russia for learning, much of them would emerge in ISIS and become a problem for US forces and civilians...



I strongly recommend you to sell your conclusions to the Americans and your government.

Of course, the Americans are so stupid that they don’t understand anything. If somebody tells you otherwise, tell them ‘go to hell’ and give them something with Mikhail Zadornov to listen to. So, when you tell the Americans about Russia buying their weapons through Ukraine and about ISIS getting the weapons also through Ukraine, they will realise that in Kiev there are only Nazis, get to support DNR and LNR, and begin to slick Russia’s feet to get its forgiveness for all their mistakes. And after they see the light, they give you many thanks for deterring from making their gravest mistake throughout all their history.

Except of this you should inform your government. How it is possible that they haven’t guessed about that themselves? Why they strongly oppose delivering of American weapons to Ukraine?! They are idiots? They should encourage the Americans to do so and to see how they will screw up again! Your government will be grateful to you and even may award you some medal.

Good luck!


----------



## Sbiker

Decus said:


> Corruption is at the heart of Russian society and most Russians wish this was not the case, but Russians endure because they are fatalistic.
> 
> The below link is a short book review by P.J. O'Rourke that really provides a flavour of what Russian life is like:
> 
> _"In Russia, “corrupt” is not an adjective. Corrupt is a noun, a proper noun, the word for the name and nature of the place"_
> 
> The Land of Magical Thinking Inside Putin s Russia World Affairs Journal
> 
> If you have the courage to read the article you will understand that nothing that Putin says can be trusted.
> 
> .



Such an awesome country. Why it isn't reality? Where the people, giving bribes for me? Why I'm not rich, as can be, if the world from review is true?

Btw, word "corrupt" in Russia not only a noun. It also combine by itself about ten variants of legal or half-legal lobby, business tricks and so on, which have different terms in EU languages. For the Russian all of them - corruption, which never could be


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Where the people, giving bribes for me? Why I'm not rich, as can be, if the world from review is true?



The only reason – you aren’t worth any bribe.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think USA could not.. Look at their posts - greed of West Ukrainians is strongest, for the something good they will not only lick the foots of any... US hope to make some money by Ukraine's lethal weapon supply, but they can't imagine, how it will be. And it will be like with native Ukrainian weapon - they sold much of it to rebels. It was easy for Russia - not to supply rebels, just gave them some money... I think, about 90-95% of lethal american weapon would not be used in Donbass... Some of them would buy Russia for learning, much of them would emerge in ISIS and become a problem for US forces and civilians...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly recommend you to sell your conclusions to the Americans and your government.
> 
> Of course, the Americans are so stupid that they don’t understand anything. If somebody tells you otherwise, tell them ‘go to hell’ and give them something with Mikhail Zadornov to listen to. So, when you tell the Americans about Russia buying their weapons through Ukraine and about ISIS getting the weapons also through Ukraine, they will realise that in Kiev there are only Nazis, get to support DNR and LNR, and begin to slick Russia’s feet to get its forgiveness for all their mistakes. And after they see the light, they give you many thanks for deterring from making their gravest mistake throughout all their history.
> 
> Except of this you should inform your government. How it is possible that they haven’t guessed about that themselves? Why they strongly oppose delivering of American weapons to Ukraine?! They are idiots? They should encourage the Americans to do so and to see how they will screw up again! Your government will be grateful to you and even may award you some medal.
> 
> Good luck!
Click to expand...


So many words... If you, ukrainians, are so smart - where's your aircraft carrier, which you inherited from USSR?  Good example, how do you use all of your weapon...

Why my government oppose to delivering weapon on Ukraine?  Because it really knows, where this weapon would be after some months...


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where the people, giving bribes for me? Why I'm not rich, as can be, if the world from review is true?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason – you don’t worth any bribe.
Click to expand...


Emm, you already said me "good luck"? Or it was just another fake?


----------



## Decus

Sbiker said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Corruption is at the heart of Russian society and most Russians wish this was not the case, but Russians endure because they are fatalistic.
> 
> The below link is a short book review by P.J. O'Rourke that really provides a flavour of what Russian life is like:
> 
> _"In Russia, “corrupt” is not an adjective. Corrupt is a noun, a proper noun, the word for the name and nature of the place"_
> 
> The Land of Magical Thinking Inside Putin s Russia World Affairs Journal
> 
> If you have the courage to read the article you will understand that nothing that Putin says can be trusted.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such an awesome country. Why it isn't reality? Where the people, giving bribes for me? Why I'm not rich, as can be, if the world from review is true?
> 
> Btw, word "corrupt" in Russia not only a noun. It also combine by itself about ten variants of legal or half-legal lobby, business tricks and so on, which have different terms in EU languages. For the Russian all of them - corruption, which never could be
Click to expand...


Thanks for confirming the fact that Russians live with corruption.Is it possible to get anything done in Russia without having to pay a bribe? Please note that bribes are illegal.

_"The average cost of a bribe in Moscow rose 37 percent last year to hit 327,000 rubles ($5,250), according to Moscow police chief Anatoly Yakunin, news agency Interfax reported on Wednesday."_

Average Cost of Bribe in Russia Spiked in 2014 Amid Ruble Crisis Business The Moscow Times


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Because it really knows, where this weapon would be after some months...


Where? In Russia?


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Emm, you already said me "good luck"? Or it was just another fake?


Of course fake. Did you believe Ukrainian-Nazi 'patriot' which is full of lie?


----------



## Sbiker

Decus said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Corruption is at the heart of Russian society and most Russians wish this was not the case, but Russians endure because they are fatalistic.
> 
> The below link is a short book review by P.J. O'Rourke that really provides a flavour of what Russian life is like:
> 
> _"In Russia, “corrupt” is not an adjective. Corrupt is a noun, a proper noun, the word for the name and nature of the place"_
> 
> The Land of Magical Thinking Inside Putin s Russia World Affairs Journal
> 
> If you have the courage to read the article you will understand that nothing that Putin says can be trusted.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such an awesome country. Why it isn't reality? Where the people, giving bribes for me? Why I'm not rich, as can be, if the world from review is true?
> 
> Btw, word "corrupt" in Russia not only a noun. It also combine by itself about ten variants of legal or half-legal lobby, business tricks and so on, which have different terms in EU languages. For the Russian all of them - corruption, which never could be
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for confirming the fact that Russians live with corruption.Is it possible to get anything done in Russia without having to pay a bribe? Please note that bribes are illegal.
> 
> _"The average cost of a bribe in Moscow rose 37 percent last year to hit 327,000 rubles ($5,250), according to Moscow police chief Anatoly Yakunin, news agency Interfax reported on Wednesday."_
> 
> Average Cost of Bribe in Russia Spiked in 2014 Amid Ruble Crisis Business The Moscow Times
Click to expand...


Hm, Russia is really big and some societies here are really corrupted (by example, many of "liberastic" communities, which lives on foreign grants. 

As for me - I'm from ordinary population, I really have no needs to pay or receive any bribes. Last bribe I've paid was about 10 years ago... btw, (it's not a joke!!) I've paid it to ukrainian customs officer to pass cargo from EU to our territory


----------



## Decus

You are a lucky guy. Sadly most Russians aren't so lucky.


----------



## Stratford57

Decus said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Corruption is at the heart of Russian society and most Russians wish this was not the case, but Russians endure because they are fatalistic.
> 
> The below link is a short book review by P.J. O'Rourke that really provides a flavour of what Russian life is like:
> 
> _"In Russia, “corrupt” is not an adjective. Corrupt is a noun, a proper noun, the word for the name and nature of the place"_
> 
> The Land of Magical Thinking Inside Putin s Russia World Affairs Journal
> 
> If you have the courage to read the article you will understand that nothing that Putin says can be trusted.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such an awesome country. Why it isn't reality? Where the people, giving bribes for me? Why I'm not rich, as can be, if the world from review is true?
> 
> Btw, word "corrupt" in Russia not only a noun. It also combine by itself about ten variants of legal or half-legal lobby, business tricks and so on, which have different terms in EU languages. For the Russian all of them - corruption, which never could be
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for confirming the fact that Russians live with corruption.Is it possible to get anything done in Russia without having to pay a bribe? Please note that bribes are illegal.
> 
> _"The average cost of a bribe in Moscow rose 37 percent last year to hit 327,000 rubles ($5,250), according to Moscow police chief Anatoly Yakunin, news agency Interfax reported on Wednesday."_
> 
> Average Cost of Bribe in Russia Spiked in 2014 Amid Ruble Crisis Business The Moscow Times
Click to expand...


If you guys want to talk about corruption, you are focused on the wrong country.

KIEV, Ukraine — The country is on the cliff of bankruptcy. A spate of politically motivated killings and mysterious suicides of former government officials has sown fear in the capital. Infighting has begun to splinter the pro-European majority coalition in Parliament.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/w...-year-after-a-revolution.html?ref=europe&_r=0

BBC: *Petro Poroshenko's income increased sevenfold in the first year of his presidency while Ukraine's economy has been teetering on the brink of collapse as the country is ravaged by corruption, lack of reforms and a civil war.
Poroshenko s Life Gets Sweeter While Ukraine Slides Into Economic Abyss Sputnik International*

And all those "achievements" only within a year after they have come to the power anti constitutionally. Those achievements are hard to beat, aren't they?

And you are right: Russia *is* an awesome country!


----------



## Sbiker

Decus said:


> You are a lucky guy. Sadly most Russians aren't so lucky.



Most Russians are really like me  They usually don't produce noise in media, just living by typical life with typical problems


----------



## Decus

Russians seem to be able to quietly accept anything from rampant corruption to government mismanagement without complaining:

_"Former Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin summed up Russia's problems succinctly, telling the audience that Russia faced "serious challenges."" 


 ""We have difficulties with the pension system, with the labor market which actually brings down the rate of development and we have a very bad structure of the budget and we don't spend much money on infrastructure. Our regions do not have enough resources and they've actually stopped investing," he said." _

Russia faces serious challenges and must push reforms

From the way you write I can see that Russia is still the master of propaganda.


----------



## Stratford57

Dear Decus,
1. just FYI, SBiker actually lives in Russia and knows what's going on in Russia, while your knowledge about Russia seems to come from the Internet, where whoever can write whatever.
2. relax, Russia does not spend American taxpayers' money. What you should really be concerned about is: slowly but surely the money are slipping from American taxpayers' pockets to Ukraine. Most Americans can't even find Ukraine on the map, so why do you guys have to pay for it? Also Ron Paul warned: arming Ukraine will affect American taxpayers.

Ron Paul No Doubt American Taxpayers Will be Robbed to Arm Poroshenko Sputnik International


----------



## montelatici

If the Ukrainians in the west want to be part of the EU, I don't see why Russia should interfere.   If the Ukrainians in the east don't want to be part of the EU, maybe they should be allowed to opt out.


----------



## Sbiker

Decus said:


> Russians seem to be able to quietly accept anything from rampant corruption to government mismanagement without complaining:
> 
> _"Former Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin summed up Russia's problems succinctly, telling the audience that Russia faced "serious challenges."" _
> 
> From the way you write I can see that Russia is still the master of propaganda.



If you are right and russian really "quietly accept rampant corruption", tell me, why the 'struggle against corruption' is a general theme of russian opposition? How they can earn points of believe from population, if russian really quiet to corruption? And why they produce regular lies, if in Russia have a corruption everywhere?

As for Kudrin - God blessed the day of his retire! He is from liberal gang, they systematically plunder russian population and only Putin, as a garant of law, protect them from Lynch's court.

I think Russia has good propaganda, but I'm afraid, now is a lazy time of them. Look - instead others they only translate facts, usually without interpretations. They really damned lazy bags of thrash - to allow men like Kudrin produce their fantastic novels without any obstacles...


----------



## Sbiker

montelatici said:


> If the Ukrainians in the west want to be part of the EU, I don't see why Russia should interfere.   If the Ukrainians in the east don't want to be part of the EU, maybe they should be allowed to opt out.



It could be a better way for all.
But west ukrainians want also 'Zaporizhzhya NPP' and a coal of Donbass and credits from US, and... and... and... A single thing they usually dont' want - to work inside their territory


----------



## Tehon

montelatici said:


> If the Ukrainians in the west want to be part of the EU, I don't see why Russia should interfere.   If the Ukrainians in the east don't want to be part of the EU, maybe they should be allowed to opt out.


The Russians aren't interfering with Ukraine joining the E.U. They are trying to make sure the Russian speaking people in the east of Ukraine aren't slaughtered by there own government. The West can't allow east Ukraine to have independence because most industry is in the east and they need the industry to pay back the debts they now owe the IMF and EU.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> I think Russia has good propaganda, but I'm afraid, now is a lazy time of them. Look - instead others they only translate facts, usually without interpretations.



The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> It could be a better way for all.
> But west ukrainians want also 'Zaporizhzhya NPP' and a coal of Donbass



Yes, it is obvious. One can talk a lot about justice and the like, but it will change nothing. You think that Ukrainian-Nazi government is committing crimes in Eastern Ukraine, organises genocide of a peaceful population of Donbass? Then demand that you government do something in order to protect innocent people. Make your rulers find their balls and use Russian army to hurl Nazi volunteer battalions out of Donbass. But what we are seeing instead of that? Your government has disowned two servicemen, mumbles about a cease-fire which hardly exists, gives discounts on gas, etc. And you Russian citizens instead of taking to the streets just are sitting on your sofas, watching TV about the war on Donbass, talking on forums about ukro-Nazis, and chewing popcorn. Keep doing the same.


----------



## Decus

The only reason Putin is still sending soldiers and weapons to fuel the fighting in Eastern Ukraine is because he wants access by land to Crimea. If he doesn't confiscate enough land to build a road, he'll have to build a very long and expensive bridge. Putin made a simple calculation - it's cheaper to send Russian soldiers to die than build a bridge.

.


----------



## Camp

Decus said:


> The only reason Putin is still sending soldiers and weapons to fuel the fighting in Eastern Ukraine is because he wants access by land to Crimea. If he doesn't confiscate enough land to build a road, he'll have to build a very long and expensive bridge. Putin made a simple calculation - it's cheaper to send Russian soldiers to die than build a bridge.
> 
> .


It was a bad calculation.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Russia has good propaganda, but I'm afraid, now is a lazy time of them. Look - instead others they only translate facts, usually without interpretations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?
Click to expand...


Ukrainian forces has large experience to down passenger planes.... How about to start discussion from SBI1812 ???


----------



## ESay

Decus said:


> The only reason Putin is still sending soldiers and weapons to fuel the fighting in Eastern Ukraine is because he wants access by land to Crimea. If he doesn't confiscate enough land to build a road, he'll have to build a very long and expensive bridge. Putin made a simple calculation - it's cheaper to send Russian soldiers to die than build a bridge.



Actually, I think that at the beginning of so-called Russian Spring Russia’s rulers thought that there wouldn’t be any need to use Russian mercenaries and servicemen (from time to time) in order to create so-called Novorossia from Kharkov to Odessa. They were sure there had to be only a spark and a handful of organisers to create an Antimaidan movement throughout Eastern and Southern Ukraine, which would eventually lead to Novorossia. And there were reasons for such a thought. But all those who are now behind the current Ukrainian rulers may be called everything you want but not fools. So, Antimaidan movement eventually faded, but so-called DNR and LNR, which include a relative tiny territory of planned Novorosia, became to exist and the war began. And month by month Russia has been drawing itself in the conflict, though it is possible to say that it is being drawn. I am pretty sure that Russian rulers are looking for the ways out of this conflict with an opportunity to save their face, but they have made too many mistakes.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> How about to start discussion from SBI1812 ???



Is there something to discuss about it? Ukrainian army greatly screwed up in this case, though our generals strongly denied this. Ukraine eventually paid compensation to the relatives of the victims.

It was a nice try, but it won’t work. My question still stands:
_The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?_


----------



## Decus

ESay said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason Putin is still sending soldiers and weapons to fuel the fighting in Eastern Ukraine is because he wants access by land to Crimea. If he doesn't confiscate enough land to build a road, he'll have to build a very long and expensive bridge. Putin made a simple calculation - it's cheaper to send Russian soldiers to die than build a bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I think that at the beginning of so-called Russian Spring Russia’s rulers thought that there wouldn’t be any need to use Russian mercenaries and servicemen (from time to time) in order to create so-called Novorossia from Kharkov to Odessa. They were sure there had to be only a spark and a handful of organisers to create an Antimaidan movement throughout Eastern and Southern Ukraine, which would eventually lead to Novorossia. And there were reasons for such a thought. But all those who are now behind the current Ukrainian rulers may be called everything you want but not fools. So, Antimaidan movement eventually faded, but so-called DNR and LNR, which include a relative tiny territory of planned Novorosia, became to exist and the war began. And month by month Russia has been drawing itself in the conflict, though it is possible to say that it is being drawn. I am pretty sure that Russian rulers are looking for the ways out of this conflict with an opportunity to save their face, but they have made too many mistakes.
Click to expand...


Putin has yet to make good all the promises he made to the people in Crimea; in fact the situation is getting worse not better largely based on Putin's empty promises. First and foremost Putin wants the Black Sea naval facilities in Crimea. Even if by some miracle he could conquer the Ukraine it would drain Russia of what remaining financial resources the Russians have to maintain control of the country.

Sorry but Putin's only real interest is to create a road through Eastern Ukraine to access Crimea. Sending Russian soldiers to die is cheaper than building a bridge to Crimea.


----------



## ESay

Decus said:


> Sorry but Putin's only real interest is to create a road through Eastern Ukraine to access Crimea.



You are sorry for what?



Decus said:


> Sending Russian soldiers to die is cheaper than building a bridge to Crimea.



Do you have any calculations?


----------



## Decus

ESay said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but Putin's only real interest is to create a road through Eastern Ukraine to access Crimea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are sorry for what?
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sending Russian soldiers to die is cheaper than building a bridge to Crimea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you have any calculations?
Click to expand...


The Russians calculated that the cost of the bridge to Crimea would be between $6 billion and $7 billion USD.

Russia Struggling to Pay for Kerch Bridge to Crimea Business The Moscow Times

_"While he says his fighters are “volunteers” rather than mercenaries, they are paid salaries: from $1,000 per month for a low-ranking enlisted man to $2,000 to $4,000 for officers. Yefimov did not answer the reporter’s question about who pays the salaries."_

http://www.newsweek.com/how-russians-are-sent-fight-ukraine-296937

Assuming that the soldiers are in fact paid and if you add tanks, ammunition and other military hardware costs, you could probably send more than 300,000 Russian soldiers to their death in Eastern Ukraine before it would cost more than building the bridge.

Russian soldiers are cheaper than building the bridge. Sad but true.

.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about to start discussion from SBI1812 ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there something to discuss about it? Ukrainian army greatly screwed up in this case, though our generals strongly denied this. Ukraine eventually paid compensation to the relatives of the victims.
> 
> It was a nice try, but it won’t work. My question still stands:
> _The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?_
Click to expand...


Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact


----------



## ESay

Decus said:


> The Russians calculated that the cost of the bridge to Crimea would be between $6 billion and $7 billion USD.
> 
> Russia Struggling to Pay for Kerch Bridge to Crimea Business The Moscow Times
> 
> _"While he says his fighters are “volunteers” rather than mercenaries, they are paid salaries: from $1,000 per month for a low-ranking enlisted man to $2,000 to $4,000 for officers. Yefimov did not answer the reporter’s question about who pays the salaries."_
> 
> http://www.newsweek.com/how-russians-are-sent-fight-ukraine-296937
> 
> Assuming that the soldiers are in fact paid and if you add tanks, ammunition and other military hardware costs, you could probably send more than 300,000 Russian soldiers to their death in Eastern Ukraine before it would cost more than building the bridge.
> 
> Russian soldiers are cheaper than building the bridge. Sad but true.



But the soldiers involved to conquer this piece of land are not the only problem.

The shortest way from Russia to Crimea through Ukraine is a route through Novoazovsk, Mariupol, Berdiansk, Melitopol, and Genichesk. The length of the route is approximately 350 km. If Russia eventually conquered this string of land, it would have a couple of issues:

It would have to rebuild and maintain the road on this route.
It would have to create a security zone along the route. Considering that the route goes almost along the shore, the security zone would stretch northward from the road at the distance 50-100 km, I think, and from Rostov region to Crimea. This zone must be manned by Russian troops. So, the Russian government would need to build barracks for them, fortifications in order to defend this zone, organise electricity, water, food, heat supply, and so on.
I think that all of that will also cost some money.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact



Oh, I see. It is quite predictable that you are avoiding answering directly on my question.
Okay, I have another one to you.
Some time ago (a year or so) Russian state-controlled Channel One released a report about a boy who had been crucified by Ukrainian Nazi in the downtown of Slavyansk. 
Is it a fact?


----------



## Decus

ESay said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Russians calculated that the cost of the bridge to Crimea would be between $6 billion and $7 billion USD.
> 
> Russia Struggling to Pay for Kerch Bridge to Crimea Business The Moscow Times
> 
> _"While he says his fighters are “volunteers” rather than mercenaries, they are paid salaries: from $1,000 per month for a low-ranking enlisted man to $2,000 to $4,000 for officers. Yefimov did not answer the reporter’s question about who pays the salaries."_
> 
> http://www.newsweek.com/how-russians-are-sent-fight-ukraine-296937
> 
> Assuming that the soldiers are in fact paid and if you add tanks, ammunition and other military hardware costs, you could probably send more than 300,000 Russian soldiers to their death in Eastern Ukraine before it would cost more than building the bridge.
> 
> Russian soldiers are cheaper than building the bridge. Sad but true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the soldiers involved to conquer this piece of land are not the only problem.
> 
> The shortest way from Russia to Crimea through Ukraine is a route through Novoazovsk, Mariupol, Berdiansk, Melitopol, and Genichesk. The length of the route is approximately 350 km. If Russia eventually conquered this string of land, it would have a couple of issues:
> 
> It would have to rebuild and maintain the road on this route.
> It would have to create a security zone along the route. Considering that the route goes almost along the shore, the security zone would stretch northward from the road at the distance 50-100 km, I think, and from Rostov region to Crimea. This zone must be manned by Russian troops. So, the Russian government would need to build barracks for them, fortifications in order to defend this zone, organise electricity, water, food, heat supply, and so on.
> I think that all of that will also cost some money.
Click to expand...


It won't cost Putin very much.

Mariupol is the first step for Putin if he is going to do the road to Crimea. Then he can use the M14 to Melitopol and from there use the existing M18/E105 to roll into Crimea.

Russians don't have the best roads in Russia so I seriously doubt that they would spend much on road work.

As far as security for the roads are concerned they will use the "rebels". These thugs will be declared the legitimate government of the region and tax local businesses and raise other charges to finance the "rebel" soldiers.

It is clear that Russian soldiers are still cheaper than a bridge.

.


----------



## ESay

Decus said:


> It won't cost Putin very much.
> 
> Mariupol is the first step for Putin if he is going to do the road to Crimea. Then he can use the M14 to Melitopol and from there use the existing M18/E105 to roll into Crimea.
> 
> Russians don't have the best roads in Russia so I seriously doubt that they would spend much on road work.
> 
> As far as security for the roads are concerned they will use the "rebels". These thugs will be declared the legitimate government of the region and tax local businesses and raise other charges to finance the "rebel" soldiers.
> 
> It is clear that Russian soldiers are still cheaper than a bridge.



I assume that in the course of fighting the road will be severely damaged.

Rebels or soldiers it doesn’t matter. The fact is that there will be people (a lot of people I think) who have to be placed somewhere, they will need food, water, heat in the winter, and so on.

Also I don’t think that the local business will flourish in these conditions, even when active fighting have ceased. So, about taxes it is rather doubtful question, I think.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see. It is quite predictable that you are avoiding answering directly on my question.
> Okay, I have another one to you.
> Some time ago (a year or so) Russian state-controlled Channel One released a report about a boy who had been crucified by Ukrainian Nazi in the downtown of Slavyansk.
> Is it a fact?
Click to expand...


Only you can say something "directly" and "100%" before the international commission judgement. Because I'm trying to keep truth, but you only produce lies and noise... 
Your salary is per letter or per post? I predict, you'll not answer this question directly ))


----------



## ESay

Stratford57 said:


> QUOTE
> 
> ="Sbiker, post: 11671178, member: 54793"] QUOTE
> 
> ="ESay, post: 11668897, member: 53973"] QUOTE
> 
> ="Sbiker, post: 11665127, member: 54793"]How about to start discussion from SBI1812 ??? [ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Is there something to discuss about it? Ukrainian army greatly screwed up in this case, though our generals strongly denied this. Ukraine eventually paid compensation to the relatives of the victims.
> 
> It was a nice try, but it won’t work. My question still stands:
> _The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?_[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact



My answer will consist of three points:

What exactly is unclear for you in the post 26?
Who are you? Are you a president of this forum? Do you see yourself as a moral authority who can speak on the behalf of the other participants? If it is so, then you need to have professional medical treatment.
I know it is very difficult for ‘vata’ to understand something, but here is an option which called ‘people you ignore’. Ask somebody to explain you how you can use it.


----------



## Camp

Sbiker said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see. It is quite predictable that you are avoiding answering directly on my question.
> Okay, I have another one to you.
> Some time ago (a year or so) Russian state-controlled Channel One released a report about a boy who had been crucified by Ukrainian Nazi in the downtown of Slavyansk.
> Is it a fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only you can say something "directly" and "100%" before the international commission judgement. Because I'm trying to keep truth, but you only produce lies and noise...
> Your salary is per letter or per post? I predict, you'll not answer this question directly ))
Click to expand...

You sound more like paid guy than ESay. What do I know, American guy with Russian wife and guy from Rostov staying with us for few months. Brother in-law also stay with us. He has lived in Moscow for last 12 years. I have traveled in Ukraine with Ukrainian friends and speak with Ukrainians everyday. Mostly this topic is not discussed, but when it is, it is very different from individual to individual. At first many Russian's I know supported Russia helping ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Not so much anymore. Mostly wish it would be over and Russia would leave Ukraine to solve it's own problems. Russians coming to Ukraine have been bad for ethnic Russians, not helpful.  Our friend from Donetsk went home for a visit and discovered his parents had been forced out by separatist and home confiscated. Like many, they have left and are building new life in other Ukraine city. Some of his family has moved to Russia. It sounds like bad and ugly situation for everyone. Only the gangster thugs who take peoples home and anything else they want with point of gun seem happy with this situation.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Only you can say something "directly" and "100%" before the international commission judgement. Because I'm trying to keep truth, but you only produce lies and noise...
> Your salary is per letter or per post? I predict, you'll not answer this question directly ))



You are talking about the judgement of international commission? But your authorities didn’t wait for it and released their own version of this event. And you indirectly called that ‘facts’.

About the ‘crucified’ boy you will say nothing, I suppose.

Well, what I can see. One person came here some time ago pretending to be truth-seeker, but it turned up that he is just piece of lie. He spreads here silly Russian propaganda naively guessing somebody will eventually believe him. And at the same time he calls others who disagree with him as liars. I wonder how this person may be better called. Piece of shit will be quite appropriate for that, I think.

Oh, I even see the way such persons imagine themselves – they imagine themselves as something like warriors of an information war. They wholeheartedly believe that sweet lie is better that bitter truth. The thing which is the most funny is that they are sure that by posting stupid lie they can change minds of people in Europe and the US. Open your eyes, guys.



Sbiker said:


> Your salary is per letter or per post? I predict, you'll not answer this question directly ))



My answer will be quite direct. Neither per letter, nor per post. You are fool, my friend.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ="Sbiker, post: 11671178, member: 54793"] QUOTE
> 
> ="ESay, post: 11668897, member: 53973"] QUOTE
> 
> ="Sbiker, post: 11665127, member: 54793"]How about to start discussion from SBI1812 ??? [ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Is there something to discuss about it? Ukrainian army greatly screwed up in this case, though our generals strongly denied this. Ukraine eventually paid compensation to the relatives of the victims.
> 
> It was a nice try, but it won’t work. My question still stands:
> _The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?_[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My answer will consist of three points:
> 
> What exactly is unclear for you in the post 26?
> Who are you? Are you a president of this forum? Do you see yourself as a moral authority who can speak on the behalf of the other participants? If it is so, then you need to have professional medical treatment.
> I know it is very difficult for ‘vata’ to understand something, but here is an option which called ‘people you ignore’. Ask somebody to explain you how you can use it.
Click to expand...




ESay said:


> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ="Sbiker, post: 11671178, member: 54793"] QUOTE
> 
> ="ESay, post: 11668897, member: 53973"] QUOTE
> 
> ="Sbiker, post: 11665127, member: 54793"]How about to start discussion from SBI1812 ??? [ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Is there something to discuss about it? Ukrainian army greatly screwed up in this case, though our generals strongly denied this. Ukraine eventually paid compensation to the relatives of the victims.
> 
> It was a nice try, but it won’t work. My question still stands:
> _The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?_[ QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My answer will consist of three points:
> 
> What exactly is unclear for you in the post 26?
> Who are you? Are you a president of this forum? Do you see yourself as a moral authority who can speak on the behalf of the other participants? If it is so, then you need to have professional medical treatment.
> I know it is very difficult for ‘vata’ to understand something, but here is an option which called ‘people you ignore’. Ask somebody to explain you how you can use it.
Click to expand...


Relax, dude 

I'm private person, having my own opinion and what I'm doing here - just asking simple questions and remembering simple facts. If you cannot find answers on my questions - it's just your problem. If you think, I'm speak "as a whole forum" - it's your problem. If you trying to tell me what I have to do on a free forum - it's only your problem too. Offcourse, if your regular personal insults for me have no effect - it's also your problem  Cheese!


----------



## ESay

By the way, the shareholders of Luhansteplovoz (one of the largest enterprises in Eastern Ukraine) took a decision to re-register the company in government-held Severodonetsk (it was previously registered im rebel-held Lugansk), so now they will pay taxes to Ukrainian budget. Even though the company belongs to Russian Transmashholding and even though 95 per cent of its production goes to Russia.
  
http://www.luganskteplovoz.com/Home/About/21
(the documentcalled‘Протоколсобрания № 17 от 15.06.2015 г.’, available only in Ukrainian).

I congratulate our ‘vata’ with another victory. Keep telling about ukro-Nazis. Storytellers.


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> If you think, I'm speak "as a whole forum" - it's your problem.



Actually, I was answering to your helpmate.


----------



## Stratford57

QUOTE
	
="Sbiker, post: 11671178, member: 54793"] QUOTE
	
="ESay, post: 11668897, member: 53973"] QUOTE
	
="Sbiker, post: 11665127, member: 54793"]How about to start discussion from SBI1812 ??? [ QUOTE
	
]

Is there something to discuss about it? Ukrainian army greatly screwed up in this case, though our generals strongly denied this. Ukraine eventually paid compensation to the relatives of the victims.

It was a nice try, but it won’t work. My question still stands:
_The downing of MH17 by a Ukrainian Su-25 is a fact?_[ QUOTE
	
]

Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact [/QUOTE]

Козёл can't even quote without mistakes, too busy
	
 teaching the others what to do and how.  So I  will just go ahead and repeat my previous post again:

I have a strong feeling, Esay has already annoyed everybody he knows personally to death, now he's annoying US Message Board members, littering Internet with his never ending silly posts and questions. He's the type of person "Умри всё живое вокруг" .

Esay, why do you ask Sbiker about downing MH-17? Have you ever heard _Sbiker_ announcing to the world about having "irrefutable evidence" of it? You forgot: _Obama_ did that. And almost for a year since MH-17 crash nobody has seen his "irrefutable evidence". So, would you please restate your question to Obama and while you are doing that, the decent US Message Board members will gladly have a break from you


----------



## tinydancer

Camp said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see. It is quite predictable that you are avoiding answering directly on my question.
> Okay, I have another one to you.
> Some time ago (a year or so) Russian state-controlled Channel One released a report about a boy who had been crucified by Ukrainian Nazi in the downtown of Slavyansk.
> Is it a fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only you can say something "directly" and "100%" before the international commission judgement. Because I'm trying to keep truth, but you only produce lies and noise...
> Your salary is per letter or per post? I predict, you'll not answer this question directly ))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You sound more like paid guy than ESay. What do I know, American guy with Russian wife and guy from Rostov staying with us for few months. Brother in-law also stay with us. He has lived in Moscow for last 12 years. I have traveled in Ukraine with Ukrainian friends and speak with Ukrainians everyday. Mostly this topic is not discussed, but when it is, it is very different from individual to individual. At first many Russian's I know supported Russia helping ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Not so much anymore. Mostly wish it would be over and Russia would leave Ukraine to solve it's own problems. Russians coming to Ukraine have been bad for ethnic Russians, not helpful.  Our friend from Donetsk went home for a visit and discovered his parents had been forced out by separatist and home confiscated. Like many, they have left and are building new life in other Ukraine city. Some of his family has moved to Russia. It sounds like bad and ugly situation for everyone. Only the gangster thugs who take peoples home and anything else they want with point of gun seem happy with this situation.
Click to expand...


If the west had only minded its own business and not backed the coup, the Ukraine would not be divided. 

Our leaders backed the coup completely. Just like they did in Libya and Syria, and Egypt (thank heavens they came to their senses and threw out Morsi and the MB).

Look at the havoc our leaders have wrought around the world.


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbiker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian experience to strike civil avialiners - is a real fact
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see. It is quite predictable that you are avoiding answering directly on my question.
> Okay, I have another one to you.
> Some time ago (a year or so) Russian state-controlled Channel One released a report about a boy who had been crucified by Ukrainian Nazi in the downtown of Slavyansk.
> Is it a fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only you can say something "directly" and "100%" before the international commission judgement. Because I'm trying to keep truth, but you only produce lies and noise...
> Your salary is per letter or per post? I predict, you'll not answer this question directly ))
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You sound more like paid guy than ESay. What do I know, American guy with Russian wife and guy from Rostov staying with us for few months. Brother in-law also stay with us. He has lived in Moscow for last 12 years. I have traveled in Ukraine with Ukrainian friends and speak with Ukrainians everyday. Mostly this topic is not discussed, but when it is, it is very different from individual to individual. At first many Russian's I know supported Russia helping ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Not so much anymore. Mostly wish it would be over and Russia would leave Ukraine to solve it's own problems. Russians coming to Ukraine have been bad for ethnic Russians, not helpful.  Our friend from Donetsk went home for a visit and discovered his parents had been forced out by separatist and home confiscated. Like many, they have left and are building new life in other Ukraine city. Some of his family has moved to Russia. It sounds like bad and ugly situation for everyone. Only the gangster thugs who take peoples home and anything else they want with point of gun seem happy with this situation.
Click to expand...


There's to high salary to allow people sound like me - I'm just have some living principles, no more 

You can tell me about American guys, Russian wives, guys from Rostov and so on - but it just words, like video and other media. But look what's happens here. You and your friend Esay permanently demostrate aggression to me, trying to insult me, calling "cotton" or "colorado", to shut my mooth and keep my opinion out of this forum and so on. Just because I'm Russian and don't hide it. It happen here on this thread, unlike the mythical "relatives" or "friends" who "haven't any problems on Ukrainian territory" 

So, I beliveve your stories, because Ukraine is really big, about 45 millions, and there are much relations between people there and here. So, also I've heard stories of hundreds (!) my friends and familiars, that say the situation in Ukraine really like the media shows. And also at least one my familiar from Donetsk was murdered by nazi - just because he was living in Donetsk. He wasn't separatist or politician, it was before rebellion and ATO, he just tried to back home in late hour when the nazi started their "action of horror" against Dosbass population.


----------



## Decus

ESay said:


> By the way, the shareholders of Luhansteplovoz (one of the largest enterprises in Eastern Ukraine) took a decision to re-register the company in government-held Severodonetsk (it was previously registered im rebel-held Lugansk), so now they will pay taxes to Ukrainian budget. Even though the company belongs to Russian Transmashholding and even though 95 per cent of its production goes to Russia.
> 
> http://www.luganskteplovoz.com/Home/About/21
> (the documentcalled‘Протоколсобрания № 17 от 15.06.2015 г.’, available only in Ukrainian).
> 
> I congratulate our ‘vata’ with another victory. Keep telling about ukro-Nazis. Storytellers.



I thought you said that there would be no companies in Eastern Ukraine that thugs could collect taxes from. Too funny.

.


----------



## ESay

Decus said:


> I thought you said that there would be no companies in Eastern Ukraine that thugs could collect taxes from. Too funny.



In my post 129? If I understand correctly, we were talking about a possible war for a corridor to Crimea.


----------



## Decus

ESay said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you said that there would be no companies in Eastern Ukraine that thugs could collect taxes from. Too funny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my post 129? If I understand correctly, we were talking about a possible war for a corridor to Crimea.
Click to expand...


Any territory taken will have to be deep enough into the Ukraine so that Putin can give part of the territory back in order to claim that he is only interested in peace. This was his tactic in Georgia and it worked. The EU was thankful that Russia returned some of the land he stole from Georgia. He will use the same tactic in Ukraine:
_
"Russian troops began pulling back from checkpoints in western Georgia ahead of a key deadline in a peace deal brokered by the European Union. But a new diplomatic battle is shaping up over international access to the Russian-backed separatist regions."_

_"Russia's decision to meet Monday's deadline for pulling out those troops will come as a big relief to European Union foreign ministers, who meet in Brussels Monday to discuss the next steps in EU efforts to resolve the conflict. According to EU diplomats involved in preparations for Monday's meeting, much of that debate and the statement that will come out of it hinge on whether Russia meets the Monday deadline."_

Russian Troops Pull Back From Georgia - WSJ

Putin is using many of the same tactics in Ukraine that he used in Georgia. His next move will be to claim that Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine are at risk and he has no choice but to send Russian troops to protect them.

If this tactic is repeated there will be more than enough territory and companies to rob or tax in order to pay for a separatist militia.

.


----------



## tinydancer

Decus said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you said that there would be no companies in Eastern Ukraine that thugs could collect taxes from. Too funny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my post 129? If I understand correctly, we were talking about a possible war for a corridor to Crimea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any territory taken will have to be deep enough into the Ukraine so that Putin can give part of the territory back in order to claim that he is only interested in peace. This was his tactic in Georgia and it worked. The EU was thankful that Russia returned some of the land he stole from Georgia. He will use the same tactic in Ukraine:
> _
> "Russian troops began pulling back from checkpoints in western Georgia ahead of a key deadline in a peace deal brokered by the European Union. But a new diplomatic battle is shaping up over international access to the Russian-backed separatist regions."_
> 
> _"Russia's decision to meet Monday's deadline for pulling out those troops will come as a big relief to European Union foreign ministers, who meet in Brussels Monday to discuss the next steps in EU efforts to resolve the conflict. According to EU diplomats involved in preparations for Monday's meeting, much of that debate and the statement that will come out of it hinge on whether Russia meets the Monday deadline."_
> 
> Russian Troops Pull Back From Georgia - WSJ
> 
> Putin is using many of the same tactics in Ukraine that he used in Georgia. His next move will be to claim that Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine are at risk and he has no choice but to send Russian troops to protect them.
> 
> If this tactic is repeated there will be more than enough territory and companies to rob or tax in order to pay for a separatist militia.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Putin has his eye on the prize. Not eastern Ukraine although he will support a continuing effort for peace in the east.

No, the prize is Greece. Putin is focused on a potential Grexit. It would be a most divine retribution to the western leaders and the EU for backing the coup in Kiev if Putin can pull Greece into his sphere.

Just last week, Greece and Russia signed a mega pipeline deal with Russia financing the deal. Turkey is making motions towards Russia as well.

This is getting so interesting.


----------



## Decus

Putin is interested in dividing the EU and Greece would be one of the tools to do so. The Greeks are pissed and if they have any influence in setting the price of gas in Europe they may well use it to try and punish countries like Germany. Putin's approach is however to fuel discontent wherever it exists in Europe. Putin funds extreme right wing parties or promises loans to countries tired of austerity in the hopes of further weakening the EU. The prize is not Greece but rather an EU in disarray.


----------



## Decus

Regarding Putin's tactics in Europe:_

"There have been well-documented reports that Mr Putin has been using his network of former KGB officers to fund a number of Right-wing parties in Europe, including giving loans worth millions of pounds to Marine Le Pen’s Front National in France, which advocates an uncompromising anti-EU agenda."

"So far as Mr Putin is concerned, *any party that is likely to cause the Brussels establishment discomfort is fine with him*. So it can be no coincidence that the first well-wishers knocking on the door on Syriza’s victorious leader and newly elected prime minister Alexis Tsipras has been the Russian envoy to Greece, Andrei Maslov, who handed over a personal letter of congratulations from Mr Putin, in which he urged closer relations between the two countries."_

Putin s meddling in Europe is not limited to Greece - Telegraph

Putin s far-right ambition Think-tank reveals how Russian President is wooing and funding populist parties across Europe to gain influence in the EU - Europe - World - The Independent

.


----------



## Tehon

Decus, why are you so desperate to demonize Putin that you would resort to posting such obvious propaganda. I don't care how many accusations are crammed into a story, without facts to back them up the accusations are meaningless to any person possessing even a modest ability to think critically.


----------



## Bleipriester

tinydancer said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you said that there would be no companies in Eastern Ukraine that thugs could collect taxes from. Too funny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my post 129? If I understand correctly, we were talking about a possible war for a corridor to Crimea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any territory taken will have to be deep enough into the Ukraine so that Putin can give part of the territory back in order to claim that he is only interested in peace. This was his tactic in Georgia and it worked. The EU was thankful that Russia returned some of the land he stole from Georgia. He will use the same tactic in Ukraine:
> _
> "Russian troops began pulling back from checkpoints in western Georgia ahead of a key deadline in a peace deal brokered by the European Union. But a new diplomatic battle is shaping up over international access to the Russian-backed separatist regions."_
> 
> _"Russia's decision to meet Monday's deadline for pulling out those troops will come as a big relief to European Union foreign ministers, who meet in Brussels Monday to discuss the next steps in EU efforts to resolve the conflict. According to EU diplomats involved in preparations for Monday's meeting, much of that debate and the statement that will come out of it hinge on whether Russia meets the Monday deadline."_
> 
> Russian Troops Pull Back From Georgia - WSJ
> 
> Putin is using many of the same tactics in Ukraine that he used in Georgia. His next move will be to claim that Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine are at risk and he has no choice but to send Russian troops to protect them.
> 
> If this tactic is repeated there will be more than enough territory and companies to rob or tax in order to pay for a separatist militia.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Putin has his eye on the prize. Not eastern Ukraine although he will support a continuing effort for peace in the east.
> 
> No, the prize is Greece. Putin is focused on a potential Grexit. It would be a most divine retribution to the western leaders and the EU for backing the coup in Kiev if Putin can pull Greece into his sphere.
> 
> Just last week, Greece and Russia signed a mega pipeline deal with Russia financing the deal. Turkey is making motions towards Russia as well.
> 
> This is getting so interesting.
Click to expand...

Russia is not going to give Greece loan by loan. That´s for sure.


----------



## Decus

Tehon said:


> Decus, why are you so desperate to demonize Putin that you would resort to posting such obvious propaganda. I don't care how many accusations are crammed into a story, without facts to back them up the accusations are meaningless to any person possessing even a modest ability to think critically.



Putin has been very clear about his views. He has stated that he regrets the demise of the Soviet Union and more recently has come to express a respect for Stalin. By the way. how many millions died under Stalin's reign?

_"Putin's embrace of Stalin's power-play tactics is applauded by many Russians and other former Soviet citizens as the sort of decisive leadership they longed for while watching communism collapse around them. To the proponents of a reinvigorated Russia, reformist Mikhail Gorbachev and his successor, Boris Yeltsin, are seen as having submitted Russia to Western domination."_

Putin once critical of Stalin now embraces Soviet dictator apos s tactics - LA Times

No one trusts Putin as his motivations are clear to anyone willing to honestly examine his actions. Even his "allies" know what he is capable of:

_"New cracks emerged Thursday in a Russia-led economic alliance, with the president of Belarus warning that his nation may opt out of it.

Alexander Lukashenko also sternly warned Moscow Thursday that his nation of 10 million will never be part of the "Russian world," a term coined by the Kremlin that reflects its hopes to pull ex-Soviet nations closer into its orbit.

"Those who think that the Belarusian land is part as what they call the Russian world, almost part of Russia, forget about it!" Lukashenko said. "Belarus is a modern and independent state.""_

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/01/29/world/europe/ap-eu-belarus-lukashenko.html?_r=0

Putin is treacherous and even his "allies" don't trust him.


----------



## Decus

Kazakhstan is another "ally" that doesn't trust Putin. Historically the oil-rich nation of Kazakhstan sent the majority of its oil to Russia. Not any more:

_"As a result of this and other problems, Kazakhstan's relationship with Russia in the energy sphere has become increasingly contentious. At the same time, Western companies have been unable to provide significant investment into Kazakhstan's economy. Consequently, China has taken advantage of the economic and geopolitical vacuum and Beijing is increasingly casting itself as Kazakhstan's major economic and implicitly geopolitical partner. The expansion of Kazakhstan's energy relationship with China has paralleled the increasing friction between Astana and Moscow."_

Kazakhstan Drifts to China Amid Tension with Russia

China has become the dominant player in Central Asia and countries like Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan no longer look to Moscow but are firmly in the grasp of China.

Kazakhstan s Defence Cooperation with China China in Central Asia


----------



## Sbiker

Nice Ukrainians!

You are really never think about if Russia really "defeated and have no chance to live", it also have no moral and political barriers to use nuclear weapon in your territory?  You know, how really easy, having some dollars, to drive truck with "something" in cargo in the center of Kiev, through all your "territorial" batallions and other brave army formations... Just stop jumping and repeating "who not jumping - is moskal" and turn on the mind (if it really exist ))


----------



## Tehon

Decus, why do you fear Russia so? Is it geography? 
Your links are all predicated on the belief that Putin is acting provocatively. I don't see this to be the case. I see Putin's moves to be reactive in nature. Putin's annexation of Crimea was a reaction to an illegal coup that threatened Russian security. That can't be denied. In eastern Ukraine Putin had the same type of scenario laid out before him, the people wanted to be annexed, yet Putin didn't do it. How do you reconcile that fact with your belief that Putin is aggressively attempting to rebuild the Soviet empire?

I understand the need in the West to demonize Putin. The sheeple need to be herded. Tensions are running high and the situation has the potential of getting out of hand and Putin has to be blamed. But some of you people need to get your head out of your ass and start looking at the big picture. It is the West that has it's foot on the peddle and is driving us to the cliffs edge not Russia. The evidence is ample and a hell of a lot more convincing than the propaganda that you use to support your beliefs.


----------



## Decus

Remember Afghanistan.


----------



## Decus

Tehon said:


> Decus, why do you fear Russia so? Is it geography?
> Your links are all predicated on the belief that Putin is acting provocatively. I don't see this to be the case. I see Putin's moves to be reactive in nature. Putin's annexation of Crimea was a reaction to an illegal coup that threatened Russian security. That can't be denied. In eastern Ukraine Putin had the same type of scenario laid out before him, the people wanted to be annexed, yet Putin didn't do it. How do you reconcile that fact with your belief that Putin is aggressively attempting to rebuild the Soviet empire?
> 
> I understand the need in the West to demonize Putin. The sheeple need to be herded. Tensions are running high and the situation has the potential of getting out of hand and Putin has to be blamed. But some of you people need to get your head out of your ass and start looking at the big picture. It is the West that has it's foot on the peddle and is driving us to the cliffs edge not Russia. The evidence is ample and a hell of a lot more convincing than the propaganda that you use to support your beliefs.



You are just too funny. You must seriously miss that miserable experiment known as the Soviet Union.

The fact that "allies" like Belarus and Kazakhstan want nothing to do with Putin is very telling. Georgia and Moldova don't seem to want to return to that socialist paradise either.

The fact is that Russia's biggest problem isn't in the West but rather the East. China has already replaced Russia in Central Asia and with some 5 million Chinese immigrants in Siberia, the Chinese may soon surprise the Russians in their backyard.

You say I am spouting propaganda but I have used reputable sources to back up my claims. You on the other hand haven't produced jack shit to back up your bullshit.

.


----------



## Decus

Regarding Siberia:

_"Any kind of Chinese expansion into the region will eventually bring about a question: What is Beijing’s claim there? Most of the border region — an area roughly the size of Iran — used to be Chinese. Russia took the territory in 1858 and 1860 with the Treaties of Aigun and Peking, respectively. Of all of the unequal treaties forced upon the Qing dynasty by outside powers in the 19th century, these are the only two China has not managed to overcome. China and Russia signed a border agreement in 1999, but the Beijing government has never formally accepted the Aigun and Peking treaties."_

Analysis Russia s Far East Turning Chinese - ABC News


----------



## ESay

Decus said:


> Any territory taken will have to be deep enough into the Ukraine so that Putin can give part of the territory back in order to claim that he is only interested in peace. This was his tactic in Georgia and it worked. The EU was thankful that Russia returned some of the land he stole from Georgia. He will use the same tactic in Ukraine:
> _
> "Russian troops began pulling back from checkpoints in western Georgia ahead of a key deadline in a peace deal brokered by the European Union. But a new diplomatic battle is shaping up over international access to the Russian-backed separatist regions."_
> 
> _"Russia's decision to meet Monday's deadline for pulling out those troops will come as a big relief to European Union foreign ministers, who meet in Brussels Monday to discuss the next steps in EU efforts to resolve the conflict. According to EU diplomats involved in preparations for Monday's meeting, much of that debate and the statement that will come out of it hinge on whether Russia meets the Monday deadline."_
> 
> Russian Troops Pull Back From Georgia - WSJ
> 
> Putin is using many of the same tactics in Ukraine that he used in Georgia. His next move will be to claim that Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine are at risk and he has no choice but to send Russian troops to protect them.
> 
> If this tactic is repeated there will be more than enough territory and companies to rob or tax in order to pay for a separatist militia.



Actually, claims about Russian speakers in E. Ukraine being threatened won’t be the next move, just because the Russian rulers have already been claiming that almost from the beginning of the Euromaidan.

I browsed the Internet and found some information.
Russian PM Medvedev said in the August of 2014 that Russia would spend 700 billion roubles in the course of five years in Crimea’s development, including 660 billion from the federal budget. He didn’t specify whether the costs on the bridge were included in the figure. Okay, we will think that they were. The costs on the bridge are supposed to be no more than 230 billion roubles. So, the spending without the bridge will be at the tune of 470 billion roubles. The total population of Crimea is approximately 2.3 million. So, annual share of every Crimean will be: 470 bln / 2.3 mln / 5 years = 40 870 roubles.
Considering even that that in Crimea hasn’t been war in the last years and considering that the Russian troops placed here are financed directly from Moscow, the Russian government is unable to find money within Crimea (through taxes, for example) to finance reforms. So, almost 95 per cent of the money will come from federal budget.
I don’t know how many people will live in the corridor-related territory, but I think that the amount of spending per person will be even higher than Crimean’s – because there will be a war, there will be destructions of enterprises, and so on. So, what makes you think that taxes from locals will save Putin’s money?

And what about money which Russia will lose as a result of additional sanctions which will be imposed on it if its rulers decide to wage a war? Or there will be no further economic sanctions?


----------



## Decus

ESay said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any territory taken will have to be deep enough into the Ukraine so that Putin can give part of the territory back in order to claim that he is only interested in peace. This was his tactic in Georgia and it worked. The EU was thankful that Russia returned some of the land he stole from Georgia. He will use the same tactic in Ukraine:
> _
> "Russian troops began pulling back from checkpoints in western Georgia ahead of a key deadline in a peace deal brokered by the European Union. But a new diplomatic battle is shaping up over international access to the Russian-backed separatist regions."_
> 
> _"Russia's decision to meet Monday's deadline for pulling out those troops will come as a big relief to European Union foreign ministers, who meet in Brussels Monday to discuss the next steps in EU efforts to resolve the conflict. According to EU diplomats involved in preparations for Monday's meeting, much of that debate and the statement that will come out of it hinge on whether Russia meets the Monday deadline."_
> 
> Russian Troops Pull Back From Georgia - WSJ
> 
> Putin is using many of the same tactics in Ukraine that he used in Georgia. His next move will be to claim that Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine are at risk and he has no choice but to send Russian troops to protect them.
> 
> If this tactic is repeated there will be more than enough territory and companies to rob or tax in order to pay for a separatist militia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, claims about Russian speakers in E. Ukraine being threatened won’t be the next move, just because the Russian rulers have already been claiming that almost from the beginning of the Euromaidan.
> 
> I browsed the Internet and found some information.
> Russian PM Medvedev said in the August of 2014 that Russia would spend 700 billion roubles in the course of five years in Crimea’s development, including 660 billion from the federal budget. He didn’t specify whether the costs on the bridge were included in the figure. Okay, we will think that they were. The costs on the bridge are supposed to be no more than 230 billion roubles. So, the spending without the bridge will be at the tune of 470 billion roubles. The total population of Crimea is approximately 2.3 million. So, annual share of every Crimean will be: 470 bln / 2.3 mln / 5 years = 40 870 roubles.
> Considering even that that in Crimea hasn’t been war in the last years and considering that the Russian troops placed here are financed directly from Moscow, the Russian government is unable to find money within Crimea (through taxes, for example) to finance reforms. So, almost 95 per cent of the money will come from federal budget.
> I don’t know how many people will live in the corridor-related territory, but I think that the amount of spending per person will be even higher than Crimean’s – because there will be a war, there will be destructions of enterprises, and so on. So, what makes you think that taxes from locals will save Putin’s money?
> 
> And what about money which Russia will lose as a result of additional sanctions which will be imposed on it if its rulers decide to wage a war? Or there will be no further economic sanctions?
Click to expand...


Personally I doubt that Putin will make the levels of investments in Crimea originally promised. Putin's interest is Sevastopol and his Black Sea fleet and little else in Crimea. Any territories taken will deliver either a political, military or economic value to him or he will return them as a gesture of "good faith".

Given the recent costs overruns for the Vostochny Cosmodrome, I also believe that the Kerch bridge could ultimately cost double the 230 billion roubles cost to build the bridge you mention.

Personally I hope that you are right and that things won't get any worse but sadly Putin's actions don't seem to be turned towards peace and he doesn't have the money to build a bridge.


----------



## ESay

Decus said:


> Personally I doubt that Putin will make the levels of investments in Crimea originally promised. Putin's interest is Sevastopol and his Black Sea fleet and little else in Crimea. Any territories taken will deliver either a political, military or economic value to him or he will return them as a gesture of "good faith".
> 
> Given the recent costs overruns for the Vostochny Cosmodrome, I also believe that the Kerch bridge could ultimately cost double the 230 billion roubles cost to build the bridge you mention.
> 
> Personally I hope that you are right and that things won't get any worse but sadly Putin's actions don't seem to be turned towards peace and he doesn't have the money to build a bridge.



Actually, he still has a lot of money. The total sum of all Russian reserve funds is nearly 360 billion dollars or so (if I remember correctly). Furthermore, don’t forget that so-called ‘infrastructure projects’ are very good source for refilling oversees bank accounts of Russian elite.

As I said above, I think that the Russian rulers are seeking the ways out of this crap, with an opportunity to save their face (it is only my opinion, it may well be that I am wrong). Whether such an opportunity will be handed to them or not – very few people know about that. But if Putin eventually decides that he has got in a tight corner, then everything is possible.



Decus said:


> Putin's interest is Sevastopol and his Black Sea fleet and little else in Crimea. Any territories taken will deliver either a political, military or economic value to him or he will return them as a gesture of "good faith".



Do you mean Putin mayl return Crimea (except of Sevastopol) to Ukraine as a gesture of "good faith"?
To tell you the truth, I have doubts about it. But in any case – no, thanks. It will be a grave mistake to accept Crimea back in the foreseeable future.


----------



## Tehon

Decus said:


> The fact is that Russia's biggest problem isn't in the West but rather the East. China has already replaced Russia in Central Asia and with some 5 million Chinese immigrants in Siberia, the Chinese may soon surprise the Russians in their backyard.
> 
> You say I am spouting propaganda but I have used reputable sources to back up my claims. You on the other hand haven't produced jack shit to back up your bullshit.
> 
> .


Yeah, Russia's problem right now is the West. The last article you linked was from 2006. It's true that Russia and China have a mixed past but the West's recent provocations are promoting a closer working relationship between the two now. Google search

Yes, you are promoting propaganda and I'm not convinced as to the reliability of the sources. Though I'm not attacking the sources, only the content of the articles. Only a little bit of critical thinking is required to expose the true nature of the articles you linked. If you wish I would be happy to deconstruct one for you and show you why it fails.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I doubt that Putin will make the levels of investments in Crimea originally promised. Putin's interest is Sevastopol and his Black Sea fleet and little else in Crimea. Any territories taken will deliver either a political, military or economic value to him or he will return them as a gesture of "good faith".
> 
> Given the recent costs overruns for the Vostochny Cosmodrome, I also believe that the Kerch bridge could ultimately cost double the 230 billion roubles cost to build the bridge you mention.
> 
> Personally I hope that you are right and that things won't get any worse but sadly Putin's actions don't seem to be turned towards peace and he doesn't have the money to build a bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he still has a lot of money. The total sum of all Russian reserve funds is nearly 360 billion dollars or so (if I remember correctly). Furthermore, don’t forget that so-called ‘infrastructure projects’ are very good source for refilling oversees bank accounts of Russian elite.
> 
> As I said above, I think that the Russian rulers are seeking the ways out of this crap, with an opportunity to save their face (it is only my opinion, it may well be that I am wrong). Whether such an opportunity will be handed to them or not – very few people know about that. But if Putin eventually decides that he has got in a tight corner, then everything is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Putin's interest is Sevastopol and his Black Sea fleet and little else in Crimea. Any territories taken will deliver either a political, military or economic value to him or he will return them as a gesture of "good faith".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you mean Putin mayl return Crimea (except of Sevastopol) to Ukraine as a gesture of "good faith"?
> To tell you the truth, I have doubts about it. But in any case – no, thanks. It will be a grave mistake to accept Crimea back in the foreseeable future.
Click to expand...


Putin never return Crimea just to avoid incidents with civilians, like this:

I saw death


----------



## ESay

Sbiker said:


> Putin never return Crimea just to avoid incidents with civilians, like this:



Oh, incidents with civilians.
Okay, I will repeat you what I said some time ago – make your government find their balls and resolve this conflict directly; or make them stop fuelling the conflict and the amount of incidents with civilians will significantly cease. But you Russian citizens are supporting your government in this ‘hybrid war’ (which virtually was waged in the March of 2014) and are crying on forums about the victims of this war. Hypocritical fools.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Oh, incidents with civilians.
> Okay, I will repeat you what I said some time ago – make your government find their balls and resolve this conflict directly; or make them stop fuelling the conflict and the amount of incidents with civilians will significantly cease. But you Russian citizens are supporting your government in this ‘hybrid war’ (which virtually was waged in the March of 2014) and are crying on forums about the victims of this war. Hypocritical fools.


It is not Russia's conflict to resolve, it's Kiev's. And it was Kiev who moved on Donbass not the other way around. Kiev's targeting of civilians has little to do with Russia and a lot to do with breaking the will of the population.
The way out of this mess is with Kiev pulling back and working out a political solution to the problem.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> It is not Russia's conflict to resolve, it's Kiev's. And it was Kiev who moved on Donbass not the other way around. Kiev's targeting of civilians has little to do with Russia and a lot to do with breaking the will of the population.



So, Russia has nothing to do with this conflict. I see.



Tehon said:


> The way out of this mess is with Kiev pulling back and working out a political solution to the problem.



Tell me please why didn’t Russia start ‘a political solution to the problem’ in Chechnya some time ago?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> So, Russia has nothing to do with this conflict. I see.


That is not an accurate characterization of my response. The problems in Ukraine are internal, the people of Donbass distrust the government in Kiev. That is not Russia's problem to resolve.



ESay said:


> Tell me please why didn’t Russia start ‘a political solution to the problem’ in Chechnya some time ago?


I will have to assume that by "some time ago" you are referring to the first Chechen war. I am not nearly as familiar with that war. I believe that for a time they did try to come to a political solution. I can not say the reasons why the drunkard Boris Yeltsin decided to invade. Perhaps his new constitutional powers mixed with his drink of choice went straight to his head and clouded his judgement.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> The problems in Ukraine are internal, the people of Donbass distrust the government in Kiev.



Yes, you are absolutely right. Though, when I called this conflict a civil war, some of local truth-seekers virtually called me a liar.
Anyway, the Ukrainian government won’t withdraw its troops from Donbass. The reasons of it I wrote several tens of posts above (it is what I see as reasons). Furthermore, after an announcement of such a move, the government will be overthrown in the course of several days, I suppose.
So, I think it is fruitless to expect such a move. What other options are there?



Tehon said:


> I will have to assume that by "some time ago" you are referring to the first Chechen war. I am not nearly as familiar with that war. I believe that for a time they did try to come to a political solution. I can not say the reasons why the drunkard Boris Yeltsin decided to invade. Perhaps his new constitutional powers mixed with his drink of choice went straight to his head and clouded his judgement.



Thanks. What about the second war?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Yes, you are absolutely right. Though, when I called this conflict a civil war, some of local truth-seekers virtually called me a liar.
> Anyway, the Ukrainian government won’t withdraw its troops from Donbass. The reasons of it I wrote several tens of posts above (it is what I see as reasons). Furthermore, after an announcement of such a move, the government will be overthrown in the course of several days, I suppose.
> So, I think it is fruitless to expect such a move. What other options are there?


I have learned not to expect too much from people and don't expect Kiev to reverse course either but I don't see any other way out of this mess. Perhaps they would be able to if Kiev didn't have the external pressures from the Western banks with whom they have decided to do business.



ESay said:


> Thanks. What about the second war?


The second invasion was in response to the invasion of Dagestan by Wahabbi's who wanted autonomy from Russia. I see what you are getting at but I don't think they are true parallels. Russia is not trying to annex Donbass. _ Propaganda aside, Putin has made no moves to suggest he would and didn't when it was requested._


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> I have learned not to expect too much from people and don't expect Kiev to reverse course either but I don't see any other way out of this mess. Perhaps they would be able to if Kiev didn't have the external pressures from the Western banks with whom they have decided to do business.



Actually, Kiev can reverse the course, but there need to be a great defeat (much greater than there was in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo). But in order to do so, there need to be much greater involvement of Russia, than it has been so far. But it will be a direct challenge to the West. I think Russia is unable to do so.



Tehon said:


> The second invasion was in response to the invasion of Dagestan by Wahabbi's who wanted autonomy from Russia. I see what you are getting at but I don't think they are true parallels. Russia is not trying to annex Donbass. _ Propaganda aside, Putin has made no moves to suggest he would and didn't when it was requested._



Annex? Of course not. To tell the truth, it is interesting who was an author of a mad idea to annex Crimea. It would be wiser if Russia had used an Abkhazia scenario at least, wouldn’t it?

Actually, I am talking about that in order to get terrorists the Russian government was using artillery, tanks, military planes, and so on. There were assaults of cities by armed forces (I suppose you have seen photos of Grozny after such an assault). If I remember correctly, the population of Chechnya was widely supporting those whom Moscow called terrorist (some of them really were terrorists, though). The war was widely seen in Chechnya as a war for independence, wasn’t it? Or it is just anti-Russian propaganda?
I don’t know whether it was a political solution of the crisis in Chechnya. But there is not much proof that Russia was trying to find it, is there? Though, now it stands in a pose of mentor and gives advises about how to resolve the Ukraine crisis by the diplomatic means.
Though, in any case, it is just a ‘flight of thought’. It matters nothing.


----------



## Camp

Why when separatist formed into militia groups were so many leaders made in charge and boss's from Russian intelligence services and military? How is it defensible that these kinds of guys show up at the same time as weapons and Russian volunteers and it is called a rebellion instead of invasion. It does not make sense. It is not logical. It sounds like bullshit about rebellion. Guys from outside of country come and hand out bags of money and weapons and say "follow us, we will have a rebellion".


----------



## ESay

Camp said:


> Why when separatist formed into militia groups were so many leaders made in charge and boss's from Russian intelligence services and military? How is it defensible that these kinds of guys show up at the same time as weapons and Russian volunteers and it is called a rebellion instead of invasion. It does not make sense. It is not logical. It sounds like bullshit about rebellion. Guys from outside of country come and hand out bags of money and weapons and say "follow us, we will have a rebellion".



You disagree with me over my calling this conflict a civil war? Or I misunderstood your statement?


----------



## Camp

ESay said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why when separatist formed into militia groups were so many leaders made in charge and boss's from Russian intelligence services and military? How is it defensible that these kinds of guys show up at the same time as weapons and Russian volunteers and it is called a rebellion instead of invasion. It does not make sense. It is not logical. It sounds like bullshit about rebellion. Guys from outside of country come and hand out bags of money and weapons and say "follow us, we will have a rebellion".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You disagree with me over my calling this conflict a civil war? Or I misunderstood your statement?
Click to expand...

It is some kind of hybrid civil war invasion combination. Would there be a civil war without this big involvement from Russia? Could this civil war be fought without trained military from a neighboring nation assisting the so called rebellion?  Ukraine citizens are in the rebellion, so that make it a civil war. Russia is using a tricky tactic and caught everyone by surprise. Putin said there were no troops in Crimea helping with the rebellion. Later we learned different. Was that a true rebellion?
Putin has given us a new kind of warfare and way for countries to invade neighbors. The west is struggling to find ways to stop this kind of tactic. Sending disguised troops across foreign borders is already illegal. That is why so much effort is made to deny it and refusal to admit what is obvious. 
Other nations go to great effort with UN and international law to justify entering a sovereign nation. You can find ways that America has done this and say America has done just like Russia did in Ukraine. That would not be accurate. America always has some UN resolution or international agreement to fall back on. You can argue that the excuse may be being misused or distorted, but at least there is something to contest and debate.  What justification does Russia give for having troops in Ukraine?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Actually, *Kiev can reverse the course*, but there need to be a great defeat (much greater than there was in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo). But in order to do so, there need to be much greater involvement of Russia, than it has been so far. But it will be a direct challenge to the West. I think Russia is unable to do so.


Kiev has masters now, they will do as they are told.



ESay said:


> Annex? Of course not. To tell the truth, it is interesting who was an author of a mad idea to annex Crimea. It would be wiser if Russia had used an Abkhazia scenario at least, wouldn’t it?


I don't compare the situations. Strategically I think Russia made the correct move in Crimea.



ESay said:


> Actually, I am talking about that in order to get terrorists the Russian government was using artillery, tanks, military planes, and so on. There were assaults of cities by armed forces (I suppose you have seen photos of Grozny after such an assault). If I remember correctly, the population of Chechnya was widely supporting those whom Moscow called terrorist (some of them really were terrorists, though). The war was widely seen in Chechnya as a war for independence, wasn’t it? Or it is just anti-Russian propaganda?


Yes I see your point here, but one does not justify the other and earlier you were trying to hold Russia accountable for the civilian casualties perpetrated by Kiev.



ESay said:


> I don’t know whether it was a political solution of the crisis in Chechnya. But there is not much proof that Russia was trying to find it, is there? Though, now it stands in a pose of mentor and gives advises about how to resolve the Ukraine crisis by the diplomatic means.



They were repelling an invasion of Dagestan by Wahhabis militants! It is not the same scenario. You spend too much time comparing things, it is as you said a "flight of thought".


----------



## ESay

Camp said:


> It is some kind of hybrid civil war invasion combination. Would there be a civil war without this big involvement from Russia? Could this civil war be fought without trained military from a neighboring nation assisting the so called rebellion? Ukraine citizens are in the rebellion, so that make it a civil war. Russia is using a tricky tactic and caught everyone by surprise. Putin said there were no troops in Crimea helping with the rebellion. Later we learned different. Was that a true rebellion?
> Putin has given us a new kind of warfare and way for countries to invade neighbors. The west is struggling to find ways to stop this kind of tactic. Sending disguised troops across foreign borders is already illegal. That is why so much effort is made to deny it and refusal to admit what is obvious.
> Other nations go to great effort with UN and international law to justify entering a sovereign nation. You can find ways that America has done this and say America has done just like Russia did in Ukraine. That would not be accurate. America always has some UN resolution or international agreement to fall back on. You can argue that the excuse may be being misused or distorted, but at least there is something to contest and debate. What justification does Russia give for having troops in Ukraine?



I think there have been not many civil wars without external meddling.

I think all that rebellion in Eastern Ukraine would have been stopped in the spring of 2014 if there hadn’t been Russian support. But at the same time, the hybrid war would be impossible without a great number of people in Donbass who support the so-called rebel movement.

It is may well be called a proxy war.

To tell you the truth, I don’t know where there lays a line which distinguishes a civil war from a proxy war or a proxy war from a hybrid war.

There was an invasion in Crimea. But I don’t think the war in Donbass may be called an invasion. I am pretty sure that there are Russian military trainers, advisors, technical specialists. I am pretty sure that there are deliveries of arms, ammunition, and military equipment from Russia. In all probability units of the Russian armed forces took part in battles in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo. But at the same time I think that the majority of so-called rebels are local citizens.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> They were repelling an invasion of Dagestan by Wahhabis militants! It is not the same scenario.



So, the Ukrainian government should have been waited until the so-called rebels seized for example Kharkov and Poltava and only then began an antiterrorist operation? In this case the war would be justified?


----------



## Camp

ESay said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is some kind of hybrid civil war invasion combination. Would there be a civil war without this big involvement from Russia? Could this civil war be fought without trained military from a neighboring nation assisting the so called rebellion? Ukraine citizens are in the rebellion, so that make it a civil war. Russia is using a tricky tactic and caught everyone by surprise. Putin said there were no troops in Crimea helping with the rebellion. Later we learned different. Was that a true rebellion?
> Putin has given us a new kind of warfare and way for countries to invade neighbors. The west is struggling to find ways to stop this kind of tactic. Sending disguised troops across foreign borders is already illegal. That is why so much effort is made to deny it and refusal to admit what is obvious.
> Other nations go to great effort with UN and international law to justify entering a sovereign nation. You can find ways that America has done this and say America has done just like Russia did in Ukraine. That would not be accurate. America always has some UN resolution or international agreement to fall back on. You can argue that the excuse may be being misused or distorted, but at least there is something to contest and debate. What justification does Russia give for having troops in Ukraine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there have been not many civil wars without external meddling.
> 
> I think all that rebellion in Eastern Ukraine would have been stopped in the spring of 2014 if there hadn’t been Russian support. But at the same time, the hybrid war would be impossible without a great number of people in Donbass who support the so-called rebel movement.
> 
> It is may well be called a proxy war.
> 
> To tell you the truth, I don’t know where there lays a line which distinguishes a civil war from a proxy war or a proxy war from a hybrid war.
> 
> There was an invasion in Crimea. But I don’t think the war in Donbass may be called an invasion. I am pretty sure that there are Russian military trainers, advisors, technical specialists. I am pretty sure that there are deliveries of arms, ammunition, and military equipment from Russia. In all probability units of the Russian armed forces took part in battles in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo. But at the same time I think that the majority of so-called rebels are local citizens.
Click to expand...

We have a saying "a girl can not be a little bit pregnant". I believe Russian troops have been used in Ukraine. An invasion is an invasion. To say the troops only came to Ukraine a few times is like saying the girl is only a little bit pregnant.


----------



## ESay

Camp said:


> We have a saying "a girl can not be a little bit pregnant". I believe Russian troops have been used in Ukraine. An invasion is an invasion. To say the troops only came to Ukraine a few times is like saying the girl is only a little bit pregnant.



Well, actually you are right.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> They were repelling an invasion of Dagestan by Wahhabis militants! It is not the same scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, the Ukrainian government should have been waited until the so-called rebels seized for example Kharkov and Poltava and only then began an antiterrorist operation? In this case the war would be justified?
Click to expand...

Is it realistic to think that they would or could have done that? Or was Kiev concerned that the rebellion would spread naturally and if so what does that say as to the legitimacy of the coup government in the peoples minds?


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Is it realistic to think that they would or could have done that?



According to the words of some rebel leaders, they had intention to liberate all Ukraine from “the fascist junta”. Realistic it was or not, you have to ask them about it.



Tehon said:


> Or was Kiev concerned that the rebellion would spread naturally and if so what does that say as to the legitimacy of the coup government in the peoples minds?



I don’t know what you mean by saying ‘naturally’. If the rebels advanced with their arms and with indirect support from one of Ukraine’s neighbours, then would it be called ‘naturally’?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> I don’t know what you mean by saying ‘naturally’. If the rebels advanced with their arms and with indirect support from one of Ukraine’s neighbours, then would it be called ‘naturally’?


It was a poor choice of words on my part and it doesn't matter anyway. They were never going to advance.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> They were never going to advance, they wanted to retreat, back to Russia.



Retreat? Then what is all of that supposed to mean? They are fighting for a right to retreat to Russia?
Or by saying ‘retreat’ you mean something like ‘reunite’?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> They were never going to advance, they wanted to retreat, back to Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retreat? Then what is all of that supposed to mean? They are fighting for a right to retreat to Russia?
> Or by saying ‘retreat’ you mean something like ‘reunite’?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I edited my post because I figured this might cause confusion. I mean separate from Kiev and join Russia.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Yeah, I edited my post because I figured this might cause confusion. I mean separate from Kiev and join Russia.



But then I don’t understand your logic. According to their opinion, the territory of Ukraine which they call Novorossia is historically Russian lands which must be returned back to Russia. Furthermore, if so-called Novorossia had really got to existence, it would have given good advantages to Russia in bargaining with the West. So, your statement that there would be no advance is somewhat doubtful, I think.


----------



## Sbiker

Camp said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is some kind of hybrid civil war invasion combination. Would there be a civil war without this big involvement from Russia? Could this civil war be fought without trained military from a neighboring nation assisting the so called rebellion? Ukraine citizens are in the rebellion, so that make it a civil war. Russia is using a tricky tactic and caught everyone by surprise. Putin said there were no troops in Crimea helping with the rebellion. Later we learned different. Was that a true rebellion?
> Putin has given us a new kind of warfare and way for countries to invade neighbors. The west is struggling to find ways to stop this kind of tactic. Sending disguised troops across foreign borders is already illegal. That is why so much effort is made to deny it and refusal to admit what is obvious.
> Other nations go to great effort with UN and international law to justify entering a sovereign nation. You can find ways that America has done this and say America has done just like Russia did in Ukraine. That would not be accurate. America always has some UN resolution or international agreement to fall back on. You can argue that the excuse may be being misused or distorted, but at least there is something to contest and debate. What justification does Russia give for having troops in Ukraine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there have been not many civil wars without external meddling.
> 
> I think all that rebellion in Eastern Ukraine would have been stopped in the spring of 2014 if there hadn’t been Russian support. But at the same time, the hybrid war would be impossible without a great number of people in Donbass who support the so-called rebel movement.
> 
> It is may well be called a proxy war.
> 
> To tell you the truth, I don’t know where there lays a line which distinguishes a civil war from a proxy war or a proxy war from a hybrid war.
> 
> There was an invasion in Crimea. But I don’t think the war in Donbass may be called an invasion. I am pretty sure that there are Russian military trainers, advisors, technical specialists. I am pretty sure that there are deliveries of arms, ammunition, and military equipment from Russia. In all probability units of the Russian armed forces took part in battles in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo. But at the same time I think that the majority of so-called rebels are local citizens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We have a saying "a girl can not be a little bit pregnant". I believe Russian troops have been used in Ukraine. An invasion is an invasion. To say the troops only came to Ukraine a few times is like saying the girl is only a little bit pregnant.
Click to expand...


You can believe in invasion, but it's fact you've mixed details.
Offcourse, Putin upkeeps rebels as he can - in other case he have a big risk from angry electorate in Russia. But where the facts, where Putin feed rebels with cookies, like Nuland? Where's facts?
Erofeev and Alexandrov? Ok, let's count. Ukraine has about 200.000 combatants in army (see   To fight wiht it Russia must have similar group and really have about 200.000 in rapid-reaction forces. Only two captured from 200.000, which "take a part in war in Ukraine" during year??? It's lesser than statistic. With Russian and Ukrainian people are millions of  relations, it's available for Ukrainian policemen to find two civilian guests with military experience from Russia and claim them as "spies".
Have you seen Esay's story about marauding in rebel's army? It's a fact, but no one regular army can allow marauding - it's seriously downs their fighting abitily. So, it's a fact, shows the rebel army is consist of cossacs, volunteers, some bandit groups etc. So, if we believe only facts, we have only invasion of Victoria Nuland on the streets of Kiev


----------



## tinydancer

Sbiker said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is some kind of hybrid civil war invasion combination. Would there be a civil war without this big involvement from Russia? Could this civil war be fought without trained military from a neighboring nation assisting the so called rebellion? Ukraine citizens are in the rebellion, so that make it a civil war. Russia is using a tricky tactic and caught everyone by surprise. Putin said there were no troops in Crimea helping with the rebellion. Later we learned different. Was that a true rebellion?
> Putin has given us a new kind of warfare and way for countries to invade neighbors. The west is struggling to find ways to stop this kind of tactic. Sending disguised troops across foreign borders is already illegal. That is why so much effort is made to deny it and refusal to admit what is obvious.
> Other nations go to great effort with UN and international law to justify entering a sovereign nation. You can find ways that America has done this and say America has done just like Russia did in Ukraine. That would not be accurate. America always has some UN resolution or international agreement to fall back on. You can argue that the excuse may be being misused or distorted, but at least there is something to contest and debate. What justification does Russia give for having troops in Ukraine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there have been not many civil wars without external meddling.
> 
> I think all that rebellion in Eastern Ukraine would have been stopped in the spring of 2014 if there hadn’t been Russian support. But at the same time, the hybrid war would be impossible without a great number of people in Donbass who support the so-called rebel movement.
> 
> It is may well be called a proxy war.
> 
> To tell you the truth, I don’t know where there lays a line which distinguishes a civil war from a proxy war or a proxy war from a hybrid war.
> 
> There was an invasion in Crimea. But I don’t think the war in Donbass may be called an invasion. I am pretty sure that there are Russian military trainers, advisors, technical specialists. I am pretty sure that there are deliveries of arms, ammunition, and military equipment from Russia. In all probability units of the Russian armed forces took part in battles in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo. But at the same time I think that the majority of so-called rebels are local citizens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We have a saying "a girl can not be a little bit pregnant". I believe Russian troops have been used in Ukraine. An invasion is an invasion. To say the troops only came to Ukraine a few times is like saying the girl is only a little bit pregnant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can believe in invasion, but it's fact you've mixed details.
> Offcourse, Putin upkeeps rebels as he can - in other case he have a big risk from angry electorate in Russia. But where the facts, where Putin feed rebels with cookies, like Nuland? Where's facts?
> Erofeev and Alexandrov? Ok, let's count. Ukraine has about 200.000 combatants in army (see   To fight wiht it Russia must have similar group and really have about 200.000 in rapid-reaction forces. Only two captured from 200.000, which "take a part in war in Ukraine" during year??? It's lesser than statistic. With Russian and Ukrainian people are millions of  relations, it's available for Ukrainian policemen to find two civilian guests with military experience from Russia and claim them as "spies".
> Have you seen Esay's story about marauding in rebel's army? It's a fact, but no one regular army can allow marauding - it's seriously downs their fighting abitily. So, it's a fact, shows the rebel army is consist of cossacs, volunteers, some bandit groups etc. So, if we believe only facts, we have only invasion of Victoria Nuland on the streets of Kiev
Click to expand...


Now that is funny about Nuland.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> But then I don’t understand your logic. According to their opinion, the territory of Ukraine which they call Novorossia is historically Russian lands which must be returned back to Russia. Furthermore, if so-called Novorossia had really got to existence, it would have given good advantages to Russia in bargaining with the West. So, your statement that there would be no advance is somewhat doubtful, I think.



There is no effort to advance on Kiev. Far from giving Russia a good advantage it would do the opposite by escalating an already precarious situation. I don't believe my statement is doubtful, I believe you are living some fantasy, propagated by the West, that Putin is trying to reclaim the USSR. There is no evidence of this. Russia supports the Donbass in a far less than official capacity. So far less in fact that there really is no credible evidence of his support .


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> There is no effort to advance on Kiev. Far from giving Russia a good advantage it would do the opposite by escalating an already precarious situation. I don't believe my statement is doubtful, I believe you are living some fantasy, propagated by the West, that Putin is trying to reclaim the USSR. There is no evidence of this. Russia supports the Donbass in a far less than official capacity. So far less in fact that there really is no credible evidence of his support .



I am not talking about Kiev. Browse the Internet to find out what territories the rebels call Novorossia.

I have thought that we are talking about the events which may have happened a year ago or so, but didn’t happen. If the so-called rebels with indirect support from the outside had secured the lands of so-called Novorossia at that time, then I think that Russia would have good advantages for bargaining today.

If we are talking about the current situation, then I agree that a possible assault of the rebels is doubtful. As I said above, the Russian rulers are seeking a way out of this conflict, with an opportunity to save their face. Again, it is only my own opinion and nothing more.



Tehon said:


> I believe you are living some fantasy, propagated by the West,



You can believe in everything you want.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no effort to advance on Kiev. Far from giving Russia a good advantage it would do the opposite by escalating an already precarious situation. I don't believe my statement is doubtful, I believe you are living some fantasy, propagated by the West, that Putin is trying to reclaim the USSR. There is no evidence of this. Russia supports the Donbass in a far less than official capacity. So far less in fact that there really is no credible evidence of his support .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not talking about Kiev. Browse the Internet to find out what territories the rebels call Novorossia.
> 
> I have thought that we are talking about the events which may have happened a year ago or so, but didn’t happen. If the so-called rebels with indirect support from the outside had secured the lands of so-called Novorossia at that time, then I think that Russia would have good advantages for bargaining today.
> 
> If we are talking about the current situation, then I agree that a possible assault of the rebels is doubtful. As I said above, the Russian rulers are seeking a way out of this conflict, with an opportunity to save their face. Again, it is only my own opinion and nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you are living some fantasy, propagated by the West,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can believe in everything you want.
Click to expand...

Any advance, regardless of the territories considered as Novorossia, would be construed by Kiev and their puppet masters as an advance on Kiev.


----------



## Tehon

Sbiker said:


> So, if we believe only facts, we have only invasion of Victoria Nuland on the streets of Kiev


And this is the fact that those pointing fingers at Putin ignore. None of this would be happening had it not been for Western support for the coup. A coup that was really unnecessary, Yanukovych had already agreed to step down and hold early elections. The financial institutions needed the coup because before Yanukovych left office he was threatening to secure a financial agreement with Russia against the wishes of the West.


----------



## eagle1462010

http://www.defense.gov/home/feature...n_Atlantic_Resolve_Fact_Sheet_11_JUN_2015.pdf

European Reassurance Initiative ERI is part of the Consolidated and Further Continuing Appropriations Act of 2015, signed by President Obama on December 19, 2014, included $985 million in ERI funds. These monies enable the Department of Defense to continue its efforts to reinforce America’s solemn commitment to the safety and territorial integrity of our allies and to strengthen the security and capacity of our partners in the region. The ERI enables the DoD to, among other things: Continue Operation Atlantic Resolve, which includes conducting military exercises and training on land, in the air and at sea, while sustaining a rotational presence across Europe; and increase the responsiveness of U.S. forces to reinforce NATO by exploring initiatives such as prepositioning of equipment and enhancing reception facilities in Europe. ERI funding will help increase the capability, readiness and responsiveness of NATO forces, primarily through the funding of rotational force presence in Eastern Europe, as well as through the improvement of ground and air training and staging sites. Combined training and theater security cooperation engagements with our Allies and partners demonstrate that we share a commitment to promoting a Europe that is whole, free and at peace. The ERI is already increasing responsiveness and readiness by pre-positioning ammunition, fuel and equipment for use in regional training and exercises, as well as improving infrastructure that enhances NATO operations and enables Eastern Allies to rapidly receive reinforcements. For more information on ERI, go to: EUCOM provides update on the European Reassurance Initiative United States European Command


----------



## eagle1462010

OPERATION ATLANTIC RESOLVE

Is the United States and NATO'S to Russian aggression in Ukraine...........In post 187 you can see the specific operations of in your face tactics directed at Russia in Cold War Style in your face operations.........................

Operation Atlantic Resolve

U.S. European Command lists 4 specific operations inside Ukraine.........click the pins on the map.


----------



## eagle1462010

Senate Armed Services Committee Opening Statement by General Phil Breedlove Commander U.S. European Command United States European Command

Our top concern is a revanchist Russia.

Russia is blatantly challenging the rules and principles that have been the bedrock of European security for decades.  The challenge is global. not regional. and enduring. not temporary.  Russian aggression is clearly visible in its illegal occupation of Crimea, and in its continued operations in eastern Ukraine.

*In Ukraine, Russia has supplied their proxies with heavy weapons, training and mentoring, command and control, artillery fire support, and tactical-and operational-level air defense,. Russia has transferred many pieces of military equipment into Ukraine, including tanks, armored personnel carriers, heavy artillery pieces, and other military vehicles.*

What we have seen over the course of the fight, was that when the Russian proxy offensive ran into trouble, *Russian forces intervened directly to "right the course."*

Today on the ground, the situation is volatile and fragile.  Russian forces used the opportunities provided by the recent lull in fighting to re-set and re-position, while protecting their gains.  Many of their actions are consistent with preparations for another offensive.

The hope remains that both parties will fully implement an effective ceasefire as an important step toward an acceptable political resolution of the conflict, one that respects the internationally recognized border.

I am often asked, *"Should the United States and others provide weapons to Ukraine?"*  What we see is a Russia that is aggressively applying all elements of national power - diplomatic, informational, and economic, as well as military.  *So my view,.is it would not make sense to unnecessarily take any of our own tools off the table.*

But the crisis in Ukraine is about more than just Ukraine.  Russian activities are destabilizing neighboring states, and the region as a whole,..and Russia's illegal actions are pushing instability closer to the boundaries of NATO.

We cannot be fully certain what Russia will do next, and we cannot fully grasp Putin's intent. What we can do is learn from his actions,. And what we see suggests growing Russian capabilities, significant military modernization, and ambitious strategic intent.

We also know that Putin responds to strength., and seeks opportunities in weakness. We must strengthen our deterrence in order to manage his opportunistic confidence.

Defense.gov News Article Carter Meets With Ukraine s Defense Minister

WASHINGTON, June 25, 2015 – Defense Secretary Ash Carter met today with Ukraine Defense Minister Colonel-General Stepan Poltorak at the NATO Defense Ministerial in Brussels, according to a Defense Department news release.

This was two leaders’ first meeting, the release said.

The defense leaders discussed Russia's ongoing aggression in eastern Ukraine, the release said, and Carter commended the general for Ukraine’s efforts toward implementing the Minsk agreements despite Russia's destabilizing actions.

Carter emphasized that the United States, together with its allies, “remains committed to supporting Ukraine in its effort to define its own course as a sovereign, democratic nation,” the release said.

*The leaders reviewed ongoing U.S. security assistance to Ukraine's armed forces and border guard service, including the mid-July delivery of an additional 100 Humvees and the ongoing training of Ukrainian national guard forces in Yavoriv, the release said.*


----------



## eagle1462010




----------



## eagle1462010




----------



## Tehon

Rohrabacher vs Power Ukraine Video C-SPAN.org


----------



## Stratford57

[QUOTE ="tinydancer, post: 11702324, member: 25451"][ QUOTE="Sbiker, post: 11702313, member: 54793"] 
So, if we believe only facts, we have only invasion of Victoria Nuland on the streets of Kiev [/QUOTE]
Now that is funny about Nuland.[/QUOTE]



Translation: ^
The way Victoria Nuland thinks about Ukraine is shameful, painful and disgusting.


----------

