# China moving ahead of the U.S. in wind and solar power



## Chris

ANAHEIM, Calif.  The world's solar companies gathered here recently amid the nation's largest solar market under a brilliant sun  and the looming shadow of China.
China leads the world in making solar cells, the key component in solar panels, many of which are exported to the U.S.

But China is setting itself up to do more than just manufacture components for renewable energy, such as wind and solar. It's also spending heavily to build its own domestic market as it attempts to battle its greenhouse gas emissions, electrify its nation of 1.3 billion people and curb its massive pollution problem.

The buildup of a huge market in China for renewable energy is luring global manufacturers and research teams to China, energy executives say. That's causing concern in some corners that China  not the U.S.  will emerge as the hub of the new industries, leaving the U.S. as dependent on foreign nations for solar panels, wind turbines and other green-energy equipment and technology as it is on the Mideast for oil.

"The Chinese government has recognized that these industries are the 21st century's industries of importance, and it wants to be the Silicon Valley of renewables," says Alan Salzman, CEO of U.S.-based VantagePoint Venture Partners, which specializes in clean energy and clean tech investments.

He says the U.S. hasn't been as clear or as determined as China, a stance echoed by Energy Secretary Steven Chu in testimony before a Senate committee last month.

While China spends about $9 billion a month on clean energy development, the U.S. "has fallen behind," Chu said. He noted that the world's largest turbine-making company is headquartered in Denmark, that 99% of batteries for America's hybrid cars are made in Japan and that the U.S. has lost most of its solar cell manufacturing industry.

China pushes solar, wind power development - USATODAY.com


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## Oddball

Good...They have plenty of money to waste.


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## Chris

Dude said:


> Good...They have plenty of money to waste.



It's not a waste.

They won't have to import oil from the Middle East.


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## dilloduck

Chris said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good...They have plenty of money to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a waste.
> 
> They won't have to import oil from the Middle East.
Click to expand...


Good---more for us


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## Chris

dilloduck said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good...They have plenty of money to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a waste.
> 
> They won't have to import oil from the Middle East.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good---more for us
Click to expand...


And China will be the leader in the most important industry of the 21st century.


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## del

Chris said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a waste.
> 
> They won't have to import oil from the Middle East.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good---more for us
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And China will be the leader in the most important industry of the 21st century.
Click to expand...


slavery is making a comeback?

who knew?


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## uscitizen

del said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good---more for us
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And China will be the leader in the most important industry of the 21st century.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> slavery is making a comeback?
> 
> who knew?
Click to expand...


Actually it is in slight decline since the Dems took over again.


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## Screaming Eagle

Chris said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good...They have plenty of money to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a waste.
> 
> They won't have to import oil from the Middle East.
Click to expand...


Oh yes, because solar panels and oil are interchangeable.


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## Old Rocks

Screaming Eagle said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good...They have plenty of money to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a waste.
> 
> They won't have to import oil from the Middle East.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh yes, because solar panels and oil are interchangeable.
Click to expand...


Technologically, they are. One creates huge debts for our nation to some people that are not at all nice, the other provides jobs here in the US, and spreads the money around. 

Of course, to a Conservative, creating more jobs in the US, spreading the money around, and not subsudizing foriegn potentatese is an anthema.


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## del

Old Rocks said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a waste.
> 
> They won't have to import oil from the Middle East.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, because solar panels and oil are interchangeable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Technologically, they are. One creates huge debts for our nation to some people that are not at all nice, the other provides jobs here in the US, and spreads the money around.
> 
> Of course, to a Conservative, creating more jobs in the US, spreading the money around, and not subsudizing foriegn potentatese is an anthema.
Click to expand...


yeah, those jobs are great while they last. 

then they move to china.

 i blame that damn conservative, deval patrick, for giving these charlatans $58MM. 

and the chinese are splendid fellows in comparison to the arabs, too, i'm glad we're subsidizing them instead. 

MARLBOROUGH, Mass. (AP) - A solar panel company is moving some *jobs overseas after receiving $58 million in state aid* and being touted by Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick as a symbol of the state's economic future

Solar panel company moves jobs to China | WWLP.COM


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## Screaming Eagle

No kidding, del. Currently all of our electricity is made right here in our country, as is the electricity for most countries. Nuclear is from here, coal is from here, natural gas is from here, hydro is from here, and that accounts for most of our electricity. Solar panels are from China, or will be if they aren't already. 

How exactly is electricity interchangeable with oil?


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## Screaming Eagle

Windmills are also now made in China. So much for alternative energy making us energy independent. It will only serve to makes dependent on China for our electricity, reducing our energy independence by HALF! IN OTHER WORDS WE WILL GO FROM BEING DEPENDENT ON FOREIGN COUNTRIES ONLY FOR OIL TO DEPENDENT ON FOREIGN COUNTRIES FOR ALL OF OUR ENERGY, ELECTRICITY INCLUDED! GREAT! 

Huge Texas Wind Farm&#039;s Turbines Will Be Made in China | Popular Science


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## uscitizen

Screaming Eagle said:


> No kidding, del. Currently all of our electricity is made right here in our country, as is the electricity for most countries. Nuclear is from here, coal is from here, natural gas is from here, hydro is from here, and that accounts for most of our electricity. Solar panels are from China, or will be if they aren't already.
> 
> How exactly is electricity interchangeable with oil?



It is interchangeable in that much of our electricity is made from burning oil and if we substitute alternative electrical generation for that oil produced electricity we reduce our dependence on foreign oil.


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## Screaming Eagle

uscitizen said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> No kidding, del. Currently all of our electricity is made right here in our country, as is the electricity for most countries. Nuclear is from here, coal is from here, natural gas is from here, hydro is from here, and that accounts for most of our electricity. Solar panels are from China, or will be if they aren't already.
> 
> How exactly is electricity interchangeable with oil?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is interchangeable in that much of our electricity is made from burning oil and if we substitute alternative electrical generation for that oil produced electricity we reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
Click to expand...


It actually doesn't. Almost no electricity comes from burning oil. The chart shows 1.6% of our electricity comes from petroleum. There are a few old diesel plants around but they aren't being added to nor are they likely to be destroyed because someone has a solar panel. I don't consider 1.6% to be MUCH of our electricity. In fact I consider it to be negligible. Most of these plants are in rural areas or on universities, at least in my understanding. 

Electricity in the United States - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy


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## Wry Catcher

First, Chris, thank you for a useful thread.  It serves two very useful purposes.
It made all of us aware that our nation remains a house divided even on common sense issues and that many of our fellow citizens choose to remain willfully ignorant.
Sadly, the "drill baby drill" propaganda has worked on the small minds of the Conservative Chic,  many of whom cannot put aside their prejudices and untested beliefs.  Reading the posts above is a reminder to all of us that the task for our nation is long and we will confront many challenges, not the least being the hate and fear which motivates many of those who call themselves conservative or independent.  
Chris, remember that those who posted above with sarcasm and idiotgrams are not rational, they respond on many threads solely by emotion.


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## Oddball

^^^
Stereotype straight out of a psych textbook.


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## uscitizen

1.6% is still a lot of oil.


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## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> ^^^
> Stereotype straight out of a psych textbook.



Evidence based classification, Dude.  The basis for a hypothesis which each day moves closer and closer to highly probable.  
Maybe if you were to (even once) post a substantive message on an important issue facing our nation that was not sarcastic or arrogant, offer an opinion evidence based on which direction our nation ought to go and how, or even offer a rational response to another poster, you might not be so easily pigeonholed.
I suspect talking points are the outer limits of your ability - sad for you.


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## Screaming Eagle

uscitizen said:


> 1.6% is still a lot of oil.



I think it was double that a decade earlier, it will be lower in another decade. If you really think that is a lot of oil I don't suppose I could argue with you so we'll just have to disagree. 

While I can agree that it might be cool if those plants went away and were replaced with nuclear plants or clean coal, I'm not in favor of the government outlawing them and having them replaced with solar power or anything else. They are going away on their own, why worry about it. 

If we are talking about energy independence, saving the oil which creates a tiny portion of our total usage like electrical generation seems to be an extremely frivolous way to go about attaining such a goal.


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## Oddball

Wry Catcher said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^
> Stereotype straight out of a psych textbook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence based classification, Dude.  The basis for a hypothesis which each day moves closer and closer to highly probable.
> Maybe if you were to (even once) post a substantive message on an important issue facing our nation that was not sarcastic or arrogant, offer an opinion evidence based on which direction our nation ought to go and how, or even offer a rational response to another poster, you might not be so easily pigeonholed.
> I suspect talking points are the outer limits of your ability - sad for you.
Click to expand...

"Evidence" based upon projection, skippy.

There are few here who are a bigger living stereotype of the pissed off, self-righteous, leftist hack loon than you.

I suggest a 'scrip for a psychotropic, if you already aren't taking them.


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## uscitizen

Consider if more homes heated with electric instead of propan and heating oil?

from link below:
Another source of supply of propane is from imports. Imports for the first five months of this year have decreased about 8 percent (about 13 thousand barrels per day) compared to the same period of time one year ago. But compared to the five-year average, propane imports are up by 14 percent (19 thousand barrels per day) over the first five months of this year. 

U.S. Propane Imports

We import about 10% of the propane we use.


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## Modbert

del said:


> slavery is making a comeback?
> 
> who knew?



Indentured Servitude will be. Speaking of which Del, to cover our debt costs to China, we will be giving you to them for about 10 Pesos. Hope you know how to speak Chinese!


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## Oddball

Dogbert said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> slavery is making a comeback?
> 
> who knew?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indentured Servitude will be. Speaking of which Del, to cover our debt costs to China, we will be giving you to them for about 10 Pesos. Hope you know how to speak Chinese!
Click to expand...

You do realize the same things were said about Hong Kong, Japan and Taiwan, don't you?


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## del

Dogbert said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> slavery is making a comeback?
> 
> who knew?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indentured Servitude will be. Speaking of which Del, to cover our debt costs to China, we will be giving you to them for about 10 Pesos. Hope you know how to speak Chinese!
Click to expand...


shi wo.


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## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^
> Stereotype straight out of a psych textbook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence based classification, Dude.  The basis for a hypothesis which each day moves closer and closer to highly probable.
> Maybe if you were to (even once) post a substantive message on an important issue facing our nation that was not sarcastic or arrogant, offer an opinion evidence based on which direction our nation ought to go and how, or even offer a rational response to another poster, you might not be so easily pigeonholed.
> I suspect talking points are the outer limits of your ability - sad for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Evidence" based upon projection, skippy.
> 
> There are few here who are a bigger living stereotype of the pissed off, self-righteous, leftist hack loon than you.
> 
> I suggest a 'scrip for a psychotropic, if you already aren't taking them.
Click to expand...


Arrogant sarcasm seems to be the best you've got.


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## Oddball

And neurotic projection is the best you've got.

P.S.....I wasn't being sarcastic about the psychotropics.


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## uscitizen

China used the Yuan when I was over there.


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## GHook93

One thing you have to admire about China is that when they want to get something done they do it! Here in America it take years of bickering in Congress and then a half-ass compromise comes out.

Solution for American, kill the senate, less house repres!


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## Screaming Eagle

uscitizen said:


> Consider if more homes heated with electric instead of propan and heating oil?
> 
> from link below:
> Another source of supply of propane is from imports. Imports for the first five months of this year have decreased about 8 percent (about 13 thousand barrels per day) compared to the same period of time one year ago. But compared to the five-year average, propane imports are up by 14 percent (19 thousand barrels per day) over the first five months of this year.
> 
> U.S. Propane Imports
> 
> We import about 10% of the propane we use.



What should I consider about that? That it would be like totally cool? I don't consider propane imports to be a major problem either as 70% of our imports of propane are from Canada. The remaining 3% isn't all that much to get cracked up about, in my opinion. 

If you want people to use more electricity the best way to do that is for it to be cheaper. The way to do that is to build more nuclear plants. 

Instead of posting random facts, try making a point. Don't do this: Wouldn't it be great if all the bbq pits in America used all American Kingsford charcoal briquettes instead of propane? Because no one knows why the hell that would be great, or if we should even give a damn, or most importantly how to accomplish it.


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## uscitizen

Yep when they catch a company exec poisioning food for profit, he is in deep doodoo.


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## uscitizen

Screaming Eagle said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Consider if more homes heated with electric instead of propan and heating oil?
> 
> from link below:
> Another source of supply of propane is from imports. Imports for the first five months of this year have decreased about 8 percent (about 13 thousand barrels per day) compared to the same period of time one year ago. But compared to the five-year average, propane imports are up by 14 percent (19 thousand barrels per day) over the first five months of this year.
> 
> U.S. Propane Imports
> 
> We import about 10% of the propane we use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What should I consider about that? That it would be like totally cool? I don't consider propane imports to be a major problem either as 70% of our imports of propane are from Canada. The remaining 3% isn't all that much to get cracked up about, in my opinion.
> 
> If you want people to use more electricity the best way to do that is for it to be cheaper. The way to do that is to build more nuclear plants.
> 
> Instead of posting random facts, try making a point. Don't do this: Wouldn't it be great if all the bbq pits in America used all American Kingsford charcoal briquettes instead of propane? Because no one knows why the hell that would be great, or if we should even give a damn, or most importantly how to accomplish it.
Click to expand...


Umm we import heating oil from that commie Hugo.\\My point is if we generate more alternative electricity and get homes off of heating with petro products and using electricity made from solar, etc.  It is much better all around in the long run.  Also we use over half of our energy in our homes.  We need to insulate, etc making them much more efficient.


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## uscitizen

We need to give big tax credits for people to convert from heating oil to efficient electric systems.
Would create jobs too.


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## Oddball

uscitizen said:


> We need to give big tax credits for people to convert from heating oil to efficient electric systems.
> Would create jobs too.


Yes...We need the tax code for social engineering much more so than raising funds for the day-to-day operations of gubmint.


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## Wry Catcher

In 1980 we purchased our current home, a home which was not insulated.  Under Carter's leadership a program providing us with a zero interest loan - administered by PG&E - allowed us to fully insulate the walls and ceiling of our home for $17 / month over five years.
A massive government effort to subsidize homeowners to re-roof with solar roof panels would reduce the cost of such materials (supply and demand), provide jobs, and reduce our nations need for nonrenewable energy.  It would allow homeowners to 'fill' their green cars with power, power generated during the day and stored in batteries for later use, or at collection stations at their job, or where they park their car to ride an electric train to work.  All public buildings should have solar panels on their roofs, new building construction and remodels of older ones too.
Or, we can drill, baby, drill; continue spending $ billions on a military to protect private industry in foreign lands, continue to pollute our air and water and continue to make sarcastic comments when progressive ideas challenge the propaganda we love and respect - for change is real scary.  Isn't that right conservatives?


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## uscitizen

Dude said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> We need to give big tax credits for people to convert from heating oil to efficient electric systems.
> Would create jobs too.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...We need the tax code for social engineering much more so than raising funds for the day-to-day operations of gubmint.
Click to expand...


right...  Who needs more stinking jobs anyway.


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## Oddball

Gubmint doesn't create any added value to anything, therefore cannot "create jobs" in one sector without destroying them in another.

That's only one of the most  basic of economic concepts.


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## uscitizen

Dude said:


> Gubmint doesn't create any added value to anything, therefore cannot "create jobs" in one sector without destroying them in another.
> 
> That's only one of the most  basic of economic concepts.



so why are you against a tax cut that does directly create jobs in America?

Seems like I recall bush supporters saying tax cuts created jobs...


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## Oddball

Tax cuts leave more money in the hands of those who create added value, which has a likelihood of increasing productivity, hence employment.

Taking tax dollars and using them to prop up this or that industry merely takes resources from the productive to fund the less productive....Which would tend to equal a net loss in productivity, and subsequently employment.


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## uscitizen

Dude said:


> Tax cuts leave more money in the hands of those who create added value, which has a likelihood of increasing productivity, hence employment.
> 
> Taking tax dollars and using them to prop up this or that industry merely takes resources from the productive to fund the less productive....Which would tend to equal a net loss in productivity, and subsequently employment.



Man talk about circular lameness.

Tax breaks to insulate and upgrade home energy efficiency directly translates into jobs for the building and HVAC/Electrical industries.

It is much better than giving a hedge fund manager a tax cut as he will just keep his money?  To get the energy upgrade tax break the home owner will have to have the work done.  Which is labor and materials which is JOBS!


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## Oddball

Circular lameness nothing. They're  economic concepts that have been accepted for decades, if not centuries.

So-called "targeted" tax breaks only use the force of the tax code to direct money that would've been spent or invested in other sectors of the economy to favored industries....Zero net economic gain....It's a variation on the old and thoroughly debunked "broken window" theory.

If attending a basic economic course at your local community college isn't your cup of tea, there are numerous cogent and easily digested books on the topic.

Good places to start would be here:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand/dp/0517548232]Amazon.com: Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand Basic Economics (9780517548233): Henry Hazlitt: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Making-Modern-Economics-Lives-Thinkers/dp/0765604809]Amazon.com: The Making of Modern Economics: The Lives and Ideas of the Great Thinkers (9780765604804): Mark Skousen: Books[/ame]


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## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Gubmint doesn't create any added value to anything, therefore cannot "create jobs" in one sector without destroying them in another.
> 
> That's only one of the most  basic of economic concepts.



No, it's a talking point, an opinion, and a universal statement supported by hot air; not an economic concept, basic or otherwise.
Off the top, a military base (government created) built in Mississippi will generate an entire community of small and large business in its general vacinity.  If this is true, how would it destroy jobs in Alabama or anywhere else?


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## uscitizen

Dude said:


> Circular lameness nothing. They're  economic concepts that have been accepted for decades, if not centuries.
> 
> So-called "targeted" tax breaks only use the force of the tax code to direct money that would've been spent or invested in other sectors of the economy to favored industries....Zero net economic gain....It's a variation on the old and thoroughly debunked "broken window" theory.
> 
> If attending a basic economic course at your local community college isn't your cup of tea, there are numerous cogent and easily digested books on the topic.
> 
> Good places to start would be here:
> 
> Amazon.com: Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand Basic Economics (9780517548233): Henry Hazlitt: Books
> 
> Amazon.com: The Making of Modern Economics: The Lives and Ideas of the Great Thinkers (9780765604804): Mark Skousen: Books



And giving a hedge fund manager a tax break is not a targed tax break as you speak of?

You are just plain hosed on this and appear to be only for tax breaks for the rich that might trickle down a couple of percentage points.  I go for trickle up tax cuts that directly create jobs.


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## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Tax cuts leave more money in the hands of those who create added value, which has a likelihood of increasing productivity, hence employment.
> 
> Taking tax dollars and using them to prop up this or that industry merely takes resources from the productive to fund the less productive....Which would tend to equal a net loss in productivity, and subsequently employment.



Do you make stuff up or is that part of the Limbaugh letter to which you subscribe?  The more you post, the dumber you seem.

The Wordly Philosophers, a classic overview of differing economic *theories.*


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## Oddball

No, it's economic fact.

You have zero room to carp about others' lack of substance when all you bring to the table are economic populist myths.


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## uscitizen

Dude said:


> No, it's economic fact.
> 
> You have zero room to carp about others' lack of substance when all you bring to the table are economic populist myths.



LOL, K have fun.


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## Oddball

uscitizen said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Circular lameness nothing. They're  economic concepts that have been accepted for decades, if not centuries.
> 
> So-called "targeted" tax breaks only use the force of the tax code to direct money that would've been spent or invested in other sectors of the economy to favored industries....Zero net economic gain....It's a variation on the old and thoroughly debunked "broken window" theory.
> 
> If attending a basic economic course at your local community college isn't your cup of tea, there are numerous cogent and easily digested books on the topic.
> 
> Good places to start would be here:
> 
> Amazon.com: Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand Basic Economics (9780517548233): Henry Hazlitt: Books
> 
> Amazon.com: The Making of Modern Economics: The Lives and Ideas of the Great Thinkers (9780765604804): Mark Skousen: Books
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And giving a hedge fund manager a tax break is not a targed tax break as you speak of?
> 
> You are just plain hosed on this and appear to be only for tax breaks for the rich that might trickle down a couple of percentage points.  I go for trickle up tax cuts that directly create jobs.
Click to expand...

General marginal rate reductions aren't targeted, as people move into and out of the various tax brackets all the time. Claiming that such reductions only benefit hedge fund managers is a dead giveaway of your bias.

Class envy semantics and swill about "trickle up" tax policy are irrelevant.


----------



## Screaming Eagle

Wry Catcher said:


> In 1980 we purchased our current home, a home which was not insulated.  Under Carter's leadership a program providing us with a zero interest loan - administered by PG&E - allowed us to fully insulate the walls and ceiling of our home for $17 / month over five years.
> A massive government effort to subsidize homeowners to re-roof with solar roof panels would reduce the cost of such materials (supply and demand), provide jobs, and reduce our nations need for nonrenewable energy.  It would allow homeowners to 'fill' their green cars with power, power generated during the day and stored in batteries for later use, or at collection stations at their job, or where they park their car to ride an electric train to work.  All public buildings should have solar panels on their roofs, new building construction and remodels of older ones too.
> Or, we can drill, baby, drill; continue spending $ billions on a military to protect private industry in foreign lands, continue to pollute our air and water and continue to make sarcastic comments when progressive ideas challenge the propaganda we love and respect - for change is real scary.  Isn't that right conservatives?



An increase in demand does not result in a decrease in cost.


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## Screaming Eagle

And I like the way that welfare payments for insulation always seem to go to the people living on the East Coast and not in the South. I think a better solution would be to tax the shit out of heating oil.


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## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> No, it's economic fact.
> 
> You have zero room to carp about others' lack of substance when all you bring to the table are economic populist myths.



LMAO, you amplify your arrogance and sarcasm with cliches and silly attacks.  My example of home insulation is not a myth, it was a concret example of how government policy can and does create jobs and save energy use.  
I'd never provide an abstract example to you Dude, even the concret can't break through your faithfully held opinions.
I suppose your opinions are based on the comprehensive report of the Cheney Task force on energy.  Ooops, I forgot, there wasn't one (published at least).


----------



## Wry Catcher

Screaming Eagle said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 1980 we purchased our current home, a home which was not insulated.  Under Carter's leadership a program providing us with a zero interest loan - administered by PG&E - allowed us to fully insulate the walls and ceiling of our home for $17 / month over five years.
> A massive government effort to subsidize homeowners to re-roof with solar roof panels would reduce the cost of such materials (supply and demand), provide jobs, and reduce our nations need for nonrenewable energy.  It would allow homeowners to 'fill' their green cars with power, power generated during the day and stored in batteries for later use, or at collection stations at their job, or where they park their car to ride an electric train to work.  All public buildings should have solar panels on their roofs, new building construction and remodels of older ones too.
> Or, we can drill, baby, drill; continue spending $ billions on a military to protect private industry in foreign lands, continue to pollute our air and water and continue to make sarcastic comments when progressive ideas challenge the propaganda we love and respect - for change is real scary.  Isn't that right conservatives?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An increase in demand does not result in a decrease in cost.
Click to expand...


Universally I agree.  With large demand costs generally are reduced if there are sufficient suppliers in competition and the materials are in sufficient supply.  In my example recycled and treated newspaper was placed in my exterior walls and attic.  Our home is warmer in winter, cooler in summer and outside noise reduced considerably.
Anyother critique you'd like to offer?


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## uscitizen

Wry Catcher said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 1980 we purchased our current home, a home which was not insulated.  Under Carter's leadership a program providing us with a zero interest loan - administered by PG&E - allowed us to fully insulate the walls and ceiling of our home for $17 / month over five years.
> A massive government effort to subsidize homeowners to re-roof with solar roof panels would reduce the cost of such materials (supply and demand), provide jobs, and reduce our nations need for nonrenewable energy.  It would allow homeowners to 'fill' their green cars with power, power generated during the day and stored in batteries for later use, or at collection stations at their job, or where they park their car to ride an electric train to work.  All public buildings should have solar panels on their roofs, new building construction and remodels of older ones too.
> Or, we can drill, baby, drill; continue spending $ billions on a military to protect private industry in foreign lands, continue to pollute our air and water and continue to make sarcastic comments when progressive ideas challenge the propaganda we love and respect - for change is real scary.  Isn't that right conservatives?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An increase in demand does not result in a decrease in cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Universally I agree.  With large demand costs generally are reduced if there are sufficient suppliers in competition and the materials are in sufficient supply.  In my example recycled and treated newspaper was placed in my exterior walls and attic.  Our home is warmer in winter, cooler in summer and outside noise reduced considerably.
> Anyother critique you'd like to offer?
Click to expand...


both demand and price for home insulating materials and such are waaay down right now.


----------



## Screaming Eagle

Wry Catcher said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 1980 we purchased our current home, a home which was not insulated.  Under Carter's leadership a program providing us with a zero interest loan - administered by PG&E - allowed us to fully insulate the walls and ceiling of our home for $17 / month over five years.
> A massive government effort to subsidize homeowners to re-roof with solar roof panels would reduce the cost of such materials (supply and demand), provide jobs, and reduce our nations need for nonrenewable energy.  It would allow homeowners to 'fill' their green cars with power, power generated during the day and stored in batteries for later use, or at collection stations at their job, or where they park their car to ride an electric train to work.  All public buildings should have solar panels on their roofs, new building construction and remodels of older ones too.
> Or, we can drill, baby, drill; continue spending $ billions on a military to protect private industry in foreign lands, continue to pollute our air and water and continue to make sarcastic comments when progressive ideas challenge the propaganda we love and respect - for change is real scary.  Isn't that right conservatives?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An increase in demand does not result in a decrease in cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Universally I agree.  With large demand costs generally are reduced if there are sufficient suppliers in competition and the materials are in sufficient supply.  In my example recycled and treated newspaper was placed in my exterior walls and attic.  Our home is warmer in winter, cooler in summer and outside noise reduced considerably.
> Anyother critique you'd like to offer?
Click to expand...


Newspaper loses much of its insulatory quality after 1 year. Wouldn't it be nice if unlike the recent redo of government paying for insulation, the money went to poor southerners instead of rich East Coast people. What were the qualifiers for this last one that Obama just did? I think it was you have to earn less than $70k if you live in New Jersey, but less than $18k if you live in Texas. What an asshole. It's institutionalized corruption and vote buying.


----------



## Oddball

Wry Catcher said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's economic fact.
> 
> You have zero room to carp about others' lack of substance when all you bring to the table are economic populist myths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO, you amplify your arrogance and sarcasm with cliches and silly attacks.  My example of home insulation is not a myth, it was a concret example of how government policy can and does create jobs and save energy use.
> I'd never provide an abstract example to you Dude, even the concret can't break through your faithfully held opinions.
> I suppose your opinions are based on the comprehensive report of the Cheney Task force on energy.  Ooops, I forgot, there wasn't one (published at least).
Click to expand...

Ironic that someone should decry someone else's alleged sarcasm and cliches with mere sarcasm and cliches, with a good smattering of strawmen and ad hominems thrown in for good measure....Again, you project and are exceptionally piss poor at taking the advice you so freely dispense to others.

You already have provided abstract examples, and they're all based upon populist myths that have been debunked so many times that they're laughable on their face.

Now, go take your meds.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Screaming Eagle said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> An increase in demand does not result in a decrease in cost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Universally I agree.  With large demand costs generally are reduced if there are sufficient suppliers in competition and the materials are in sufficient supply.  In my example recycled and treated newspaper was placed in my exterior walls and attic.  Our home is warmer in winter, cooler in summer and outside noise reduced considerably.
> Anyother critique you'd like to offer?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Newspaper loses much of its insulatory quality after 1 year. Wouldn't it be nice if unlike the recent redo of government paying for insulation, the money went to poor southerners instead of rich East Coast people. What were the qualifiers for this last one that Obama just did? I think it was you have to earn less than $70k if you live in New Jersey, but less than $18k if you live in Texas. What an asshole. It's institutionalized corruption and vote buying.
Click to expand...


Evidence backing your claim re newspaper as an insulator?  Ours has been working fine for the past (nearly) 30 years.  When the stucco was cut to install new construction double windows several years ago the material had remained packed solid.  We have never noticed any reduction in its insulation effectivness over the years.  If there was, my dear wife would have brought it to my attention.  On that there is no doubt.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's economic fact.
> 
> You have zero room to carp about others' lack of substance when all you bring to the table are economic populist myths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO, you amplify your arrogance and sarcasm with cliches and silly attacks.  My example of home insulation is not a myth, it was a concret example of how government policy can and does create jobs and save energy use.
> I'd never provide an abstract example to you Dude, even the concret can't break through your faithfully held opinions.
> I suppose your opinions are based on the comprehensive report of the Cheney Task force on energy.  Ooops, I forgot, there wasn't one (published at least).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ironic that someone should decry someone else's alleged sarcasm and cliches with mere sarcasm and cliches, with a good smattering of strawmen and ad hominems thrown in for good measure....Again, you project and are exceptionally piss poor at taking the advice you so freely dispense to others.
> 
> You already have provided abstract examples, and they're all based upon populist myths that have been debunked so many times that they're laughable on their face.
> 
> Now, go take your meds.
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing.  Hey, when you cross dress to you post as California Girl (or is it Si Moda?  I always get dwiddle dumb an dwiddle dumber confused).


----------



## Oddball

Thanks for failing to live up to the expectations you hold others up to.

Like I said, you're straight out of a psych stereotype textbook.


----------



## uscitizen

Dude said:


> Thanks for failing to live up to the expectations you hold others up to.
> 
> Like I said, you're straight out of a psych stereotype textbook.



LOL, A sheep in a hall of mirrors.


----------



## Oddball

You don't have any room to talk, Buckwheat.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1731548-post16.html


----------



## uscitizen

Dude said:


> You don't have any room to talk, Buckwheat.
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/1731548-post16.html



As I said a sheep in a hall of mirrors.


----------



## Oddball

The projector is usually the first to make such declarations.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Thanks for failing to live up to the expectations you hold others up to.
> 
> Like I said, you're straight out of a psych stereotype textbook.



Mea Culpa, I was trying to reach down to your level Dude, as a full grown adult that's next to impossible.


----------



## Screaming Eagle

Wry Catcher said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Universally I agree.  With large demand costs generally are reduced if there are sufficient suppliers in competition and the materials are in sufficient supply.  In my example recycled and treated newspaper was placed in my exterior walls and attic.  Our home is warmer in winter, cooler in summer and outside noise reduced considerably.
> Anyother critique you'd like to offer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newspaper loses much of its insulatory quality after 1 year. Wouldn't it be nice if unlike the recent redo of government paying for insulation, the money went to poor southerners instead of rich East Coast people. What were the qualifiers for this last one that Obama just did? I think it was you have to earn less than $70k if you live in New Jersey, but less than $18k if you live in Texas. What an asshole. It's institutionalized corruption and vote buying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Evidence backing your claim re newspaper as an insulator?  Ours has been working fine for the past (nearly) 30 years.  When the stucco was cut to install new construction double windows several years ago the material had remained packed solid.  We have never noticed any reduction in its insulation effectivness over the years.  If there was, my dear wife would have brought it to my attention.  On that there is no doubt.
Click to expand...


Newspaper settles and loses a significant amount(around 20% I think) of its original r factor in the first few years, after that I think it is pretty stable.


----------



## Oddball

Wry Catcher said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for failing to live up to the expectations you hold others up to.
> 
> Like I said, you're straight out of a psych stereotype textbook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mea Culpa, I was trying to reach down to your level Dude, as a full grown adult that's next to impossible.
Click to expand...

You're nothing if not a marvel of self-flattery....From where you crawl, everything is up.

As was earlier pointed out, for someone who bitches about others not posting anything of substance, you have an amazingly difficult time doing so yourself.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for failing to live up to the expectations you hold others up to.
> 
> Like I said, you're straight out of a psych stereotype textbook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mea Culpa, I was trying to reach down to your level Dude, as a full grown adult that's next to impossible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're nothing if not a marvel of self-flattery....From where you crawl, everything is up.
> 
> As was earlier pointed out, for someone who bitches about others not posting anything of substance, you have an amazingly difficult time doing so yourself.
Click to expand...


lmao, Dude, it's all about the audience.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Screaming Eagle said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newspaper loses much of its insulatory quality after 1 year. Wouldn't it be nice if unlike the recent redo of government paying for insulation, the money went to poor southerners instead of rich East Coast people. What were the qualifiers for this last one that Obama just did? I think it was you have to earn less than $70k if you live in New Jersey, but less than $18k if you live in Texas. What an asshole. It's institutionalized corruption and vote buying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence backing your claim re newspaper as an insulator?  Ours has been working fine for the past (nearly) 30 years.  When the stucco was cut to install new construction double windows several years ago the material had remained packed solid.  We have never noticed any reduction in its insulation effectivness over the years.  If there was, my dear wife would have brought it to my attention.  On that there is no doubt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Newspaper settles and loses a significant amount(around 20% I think) of its original r factor in the first few years, after that I think it is pretty stable.
Click to expand...


That is not our experience.  The voids in our walls are jam packed, have been since filled in the fall of 1980.


----------



## Screaming Eagle

Wry Catcher said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence backing your claim re newspaper as an insulator?  Ours has been working fine for the past (nearly) 30 years.  When the stucco was cut to install new construction double windows several years ago the material had remained packed solid.  We have never noticed any reduction in its insulation effectivness over the years.  If there was, my dear wife would have brought it to my attention.  On that there is no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newspaper settles and loses a significant amount(around 20% I think) of its original r factor in the first few years, after that I think it is pretty stable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is not our experience.  The voids in our walls are jam packed, have been since filled in the fall of 1980.
Click to expand...

If it's packed in the walls then it is already compressed and wouldn't change, the blown kind in the attic is what settles.


----------



## Old Rocks

Dude said:


> Gubmint doesn't create any added value to anything, therefore cannot "create jobs" in one sector without destroying them in another.
> 
> That's only one of the most  basic of economic concepts.



Only a typically stupid and totally wrong comment by Dooodeee....

Interstate Highway System.

Irrigation Canals.

Hydorelectric dams.

A minor research grant in 1948 to research something called 'semi-conductors'.


----------



## uscitizen

Dude said:


> ^^^
> Stereotype straight out of a psych textbook.



It seems you are correct the projectors are first


----------



## rdean

You might as well quit trying to argue with uneducated Republicans.  They have no solutions and want to keep it that way.

We know that many years ago, we had the Model T.  They were gas hogs.  It takes many years to develop technology to be really reliable.  Years of research and investment and we have the cars of today.

Same thing with energy.  

Solar panels are in their infancy.  It will be years before the make a substantial energy input into our economy.  Same with wind.  

All of that will take investment.  Money we don't have because Republicans spent it on Iraq.  
It will take education.  Something Republicans are against.

Somehow, America will have to get around the Party of "NO" if we are going to stay any type of world leader.  

Their terror and fear are dragging down this country.  Maybe that's part of their plan.  Wonder what their goal is?


----------



## Oddball

uscitizen said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^
> Stereotype straight out of a psych textbook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems you are correct the projector are first
Click to expand...

Thanks, Pee-wee. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGWbzUM-y8[/ame]


----------



## rdean

Dude said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^
> Stereotype straight out of a psych textbook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems you are correct the projector are first
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, Pee-wee.
> 
> [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGWbzUM-y8[/ame]
Click to expand...


I love watching two Republicans argue.  Because they march in lockstep, it's so rare.
Add the lack of education.  If you don't know anything, what is there to argue about?

Trying to pay off each other.  Calling names.  Perfect.  Thanks.


----------



## Oddball

I'm not a republican, turd burglar.


----------



## GWV5903

Chris said:


> ANAHEIM, Calif. &#8212; The world's solar companies gathered here recently amid the nation's largest solar market under a brilliant sun &#8211; and the looming shadow of China.
> China leads the world in making solar cells, the key component in solar panels, many of which are exported to the U.S.
> 
> But China is setting itself up to do more than just manufacture components for renewable energy, such as wind and solar. It's also spending heavily to build its own domestic market as it attempts to battle its greenhouse gas emissions, electrify its nation of 1.3 billion people and curb its massive pollution problem.
> 
> The buildup of a huge market in China for renewable energy is luring global manufacturers and research teams to China, energy executives say. That's causing concern in some corners that China &#8211; not the U.S. &#8211; will emerge as the hub of the new industries, leaving the U.S. as dependent on foreign nations for solar panels, wind turbines and other green-energy equipment and technology as it is on the Mideast for oil.
> 
> "The Chinese government has recognized that these industries are the 21st century's industries of importance, and it wants to be the Silicon Valley of renewables," says Alan Salzman, CEO of U.S.-based VantagePoint Venture Partners, which specializes in clean energy and clean tech investments.
> 
> He says the U.S. hasn't been as clear or as determined as China, a stance echoed by Energy Secretary Steven Chu in testimony before a Senate committee last month.
> 
> While China spends about $9 billion a month on clean energy development, the U.S. "has fallen behind," Chu said. He noted that the world's largest turbine-making company is headquartered in Denmark, that 99% of batteries for America's hybrid cars are made in Japan and that the U.S. has lost most of its solar cell manufacturing industry.
> 
> China pushes solar, wind power development - USATODAY.com



First, we consume 16% more in bpd than we did in 1970, yet our population has grown roughly 33% over the same time.....now that is the high which represents 3.5 million bpd more than 1970, which brings us to today, currently in slower economic growth (growth being vital to our way of life, actually any nations way of life) we are  consuming roughly 1 to 1.5 million bpd more than 1970......

The Al Gore Fan Club is making Al Gore a very rich man.....and his "Truth" is not about the planet, it is about him and only him.....

The following is from the International Energy Agency.......

Clean Energy Will Lag Behind Global Power Demand: Chart of Day - Bloomberg.com see attachment....

Over the next 15 years we can not even come close to meeting the demand for just electricity, let alone transportation, heating, manufacturing, etc... with Clean Energy Alternatives.....

And for those of you who really believe we need the ME for their oil, take a look at the following:

*Rank Country (bbl)  Date of Information *

1 Saudi Arabia 266,700,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

2 Canada 178,100,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

3 Iran 136,200,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

4 Iraq 115,000,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

5 Kuwait 104,000,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

6 Venezuela 99,380,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

7 United Arab Emirates 97,800,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

8 Russia 60,000,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

9 Libya 43,660,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

10 Nigeria 36,220,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

11 Kazakhstan 30,000,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

*12 United States 21,320,000,000 1 January 2009 est. * 

13 China 16,000,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

14 Qatar 15,210,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

15 Brazil 12,620,000,000 1 January 2009 est.  

Now keep in mind, the Saudis kicked American management out of Saudi Aramco in 1979, the rules for the OPEC Cartel members for their amount of barrels of production per day are based on their proven reserves, there is no independent auditing of proven reserves for any of the members........

This brings me to my point, currently reserves est. in the North Dakota Bakken are 271 billion to 503 billion barrels (8.00×1010 m3), with a mean of *413 billion barrels *(6.57×1010 m3).[9]......current technology, horizontal drilling mainly, have brought Shale into the forefront of domestic production, and the Bakken formation was discovered in 1951, there are several new Shale plays within our own borders.....The top three nations Globally est. reserves amount to 581,000,000,000...... 

We can continue to follow, but our strongest position has always been as a leader, if we continue to believe we need to import to guard our future, we will continue to be a slave to global price controls, and as T. Boone Pickens has pointed out we will never develop the capital or ambition to really find safe alternative energy....


----------



## Chris

Quoting Bloomberg on clean energy?

Why don't you just quote the American Petroleum Institue.

Clean energy technology is available, now.

In Israel, solar power that won&#8217;t need subsidies | csmonitor.com


----------



## mdn2000

Wind is a very old technology that has peaked, the only advance has been to make the windmill bigger, pretty funny huh, you got to think of the wooden windmills of Holland, all we are doing is making them out of fiberglass and that mega-sizing them.

Solar, real big joke, massive amounts of water need to be pumped to solar farms, so much water that you have to have a different source of energy to pump the water because the solar farm is too weak to pump its own water.

So why dont the liberal/marxist environuts show off their education, all I see is the left calling people names and posting links to press releases. 

Here, show us your education

How much energy and which types does it take to make one ton of fiberglass


----------



## GWV5903

Chris said:


> Quoting Bloomberg on clean energy?
> 
> Why don't you just quote the American Petroleum Institue.
> 
> Clean energy technology is available, now.
> 
> In Israel, solar power that wont need subsidies | csmonitor.com



I know you have a difficult time dealing with the facts, it is the International Energy Agency that is being quoted, not Bloomberg, furthermore from your own article the following statement is made....

_"*In a country that ranks among the worlds highest for average number of sunny days per year*, solar energy has long been seen as a key natural resource here."_

What would they do in these locations.....the bold number is the yearly average of sunny days....

BUFFALO,NY *54* 
BARTERIS.,AK *53* 
BINGHAMTON,NY *52* 
OLYMPIA,WA *52* 
KING SALMON,AK *51* 
QUILLAYUTE,WA *51* 
ASTORIA,OR *50* 
ELKINS,WV *48* 
MT.WASHINGTON,NH *45* 
JUNEAU,AK *44* 
YAKUTAT,AK *41* 
ANNETTE,AK *40 *
HILO,HI *36 *
KWAJALEIN,MARSHALL IS.,PC *18* 
ST.PAUL ISLAND,AK *18* 
GUAM,PC *16* 
PAGO PAGO, AMER SAMOA,PC *13* 
COLD BAY,AK *10* 
MAJURO,MARSHALL IS,PC* 8* 
YAP,W CAROLINE IS.,PC* 5* 
KOROR,PC *4 *
POHNPEI,CAROLINE IS.,PC *2* 
CHUUK,E.CAROLINE IS.,PC *0* 

Chris it is IMPORTANT THAT YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND THE FULL IMPACT THAT YOUR DECISIONS HAVE....

_"ZenithSolar hopes to offer its technology further afield. *But can it work everywhere*, even in the places without nearly as much sun?* Faiman says it can, since the machines track the sun even on a cloudy day, but it might not be cost-effective*."_ OOOPPPPPSSS.....

The other obvious fact you choose to skip transportation, so are we going to power a commercial jet with solar? How about the shipping industry?


----------



## Wry Catcher

I note that GWV5903 is a resident of Houston, TX.  Further note that Houston is not mentined on his/her list.
By cherry picking regions for sunshine, s/he neglects (lies by omission) to note the entire Southwest, the deep south, as well as the western states of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and of course California have substantially more sunny days, and hours of sun each day then those s/he listed in the Northwest, New England and Alaska.  However, the neglect does not end there, the midwestern states are well known for wind, work is being done to capture wave and tidal power and to more cheaply collect hydrogen from water.


----------



## mdn2000

Wry Catcher said:


> I note that GWV5903 is a resident of Houston, TX.  Further note that Houston is not mentined on his/her list.
> By cherry picking regions for sunshine, s/he neglects (lies by omission) to note the entire Southwest, the deep south, as well as the western states of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and of course California have substantially more sunny days, and hours of sun each day then those s/he listed in the Northwest, New England and Alaska.  However, the neglect does not end there, the midwestern states are well known for wind, work is being done to capture wave and tidal power and to more cheaply collect hydrogen from water.



And how many effective hours in one day, how does that change in the winter vs the summer, there is a huge difference in the length of the day in summer and winter, actually its a different number each and every day so it would be more accurate to state how many effective hours for summer, fall, sprng, and winter.

There is not clean energy technology, it is a fact that everything green produces more CO2 than fossil fuel, you must use fossil fuel to build the wind mill, the solar panel, to make hydrogen, and to make a geothermal plant.

Green Energy is not about saving the planet, I have yet to see one person explain how they can make a windmill without using fossil fuels.

Green Energy is an Oxymoron. It simply does not exsist.

So those who support Green Energy and ignore how you produce the power plants are either morons or marxist.

when confronted with a simple fact that has yet to be shown false, when that fact is repeatedly ignored by those of you that supposedly better educated, how can anyone see the green energy supporters as anything but being either a liberal/marxist or a moron


----------



## Wry Catcher

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I note that GWV5903 is a resident of Houston, TX.  Further note that Houston is not mentined on his/her list.
> By cherry picking regions for sunshine, s/he neglects (lies by omission) to note the entire Southwest, the deep south, as well as the western states of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and of course California have substantially more sunny days, and hours of sun each day then those s/he listed in the Northwest, New England and Alaska.  However, the neglect does not end there, the midwestern states are well known for wind, work is being done to capture wave and tidal power and to more cheaply collect hydrogen from water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how many effective hours in one day, how does that change in the winter vs the summer, there is a huge difference in the length of the day in summer and winter, actually its a different number each and every day so it would be more accurate to state how many effective hours for summer, fall, sprng, and winter.
> 
> There is not clean energy technology, it is a fact that everything green produces more CO2 than fossil fuel, you must use fossil fuel to build the wind mill, the solar panel, to make hydrogen, and to make a geothermal plant.
> 
> Green Energy is not about saving the planet, I have yet to see one person explain how they can make a windmill without using fossil fuels.
> 
> Green Energy is an Oxymoron. It simply does not exsist.
> 
> So those who support Green Energy and ignore how you produce the power plants are either morons or marxist.
> 
> when confronted with a simple fact that has yet to be shown false, when that fact is repeatedly ignored by those of you that supposedly better educated, how can anyone see the green energy supporters as anything but being either a liberal/marxist or a moron
Click to expand...

 
Wow, nice rant.  Wind and water mills have been around for centuries, wood fins, wood gears, wood drive shafts for pumping water or grinding grain.  My pool is heated by the sun, of course the black hose which circulates the water and the pump were produced using energy, but to pump the water throught the filter and hose requires much less energy than a gas pool heater.  
Green energy exists, take rocks heated in the sun and put them in your sleeping bag.  Warm, and as green as green gets.
I wonder, do you also believe the earth is flat?

PS  
liberal and Marxist are words which describe different world views; calling someone a moron is simply using a pejorative and has zero relevance to the debate.  Pejoratives are used by those unable to provide a credible argument.


----------



## uscitizen

Dude said:


> I'm not a republican, turd burglar.



LOL, I will bet you voted for bush a couple of time if old enough.


----------



## Wry Catcher

uscitizen said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a republican, turd burglar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, I will bet you voted for bush a couple of time if old enough.
Click to expand...


Does Dude mean he's not a republican or not a Republican?  If the former he rejects the Constitution of the United States; if the latter he maybe a member of the idiot fringe, the far right wing of American politics.  My guess is he is both.  He supports our Constitution whenever it fits his agenda, and rejects it whenever it provides something which does.
For example, I'm sure he believes the Second Amendment right to bear arms is sacrosanct, but rejects the principles when in practice of the Fourteenth.


----------



## GWV5903

Wry Catcher said:


> I note that GWV5903 is a resident of Houston, TX.  Further note that Houston is not mentined on his/her list.
> By cherry picking regions for sunshine, s/he neglects (lies by omission) to note the entire Southwest, the deep south, as well as the western states of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and of course California have substantially more sunny days, and hours of sun each day then those s/he listed in the Northwest, New England and Alaska.  However, the neglect does not end there, the midwestern states are well known for wind, work is being done to capture wave and tidal power and to more cheaply collect hydrogen from water.



There was no intentional omission, the point was you have 23 cities that this would have ZERO benefit for, here is the complete list, so tell us old Wry one, what is the booming metropolis of Yuma, AZ going to do the 33% of the days they have no sunny days, BTW the percentage goes down from there and Houston the fourth largest city in America would have to find something to fill the void 75% of the time.....

Out of the 271 cities, 260 would need something else at least 50% of the time, that's an astonishing 96%, more "Truth" for the Al Gore fan club.....

One more thing, the country of Israel is sunny 90+% of the time.....

YUMA,AZ *242 *
PHOENIX,AZ *211 *
LAS VEGAS,NV *210 *
BISHOP,CA *201 *
FRESNO,CA *194 *
EL PASO,TX *193 *
TUCSON,AZ *193 *
BAKERSFIELD,CA *191 *
SACRAMENTO,CA *188 *
*LOS ANGELES C.O.,CA 186* 
STOCKTON,CA *184 *
WINSLOW,AZ *177 *
SANTA MARIA,CA *176 *
BLUE CANYON,CA *174 *
REDDING,CA *172 *
ROSWELL,NM *168 *
ALBUQUERQUE,NM *167 *
MIDLAND-ODESSA,TX *165 *
MOUNT SHASTA, CA *164 *
CLAYTON,NM *162 *
FLAGSTAFF,AZ *162 *
LUBBOCK,TX *160 *
SAN FRANCISCO AP,CA *160 *
LONG BEACH,CA *159 *
RENO,NV *158 *
AMARILLO,TX *157 *
SAN ANGELO,TX *154 *
MILFORD,UT *151 *
WICHITA FALLS,TX *151 *
ABILENE,TX *149 *
ALAMOSA,CO *148 *
*LOS ANGELES AP,CA 147 *
SAN DIEGO,CA 146 
GOODLAND,KS *143 *
OKLAHOMA CITY,OK *139 *
PUEBLO,CO *139 *
WINNEMUCCA,NV *138 *
DODGE CITY,KS *137 *
GRAND JUNCTION,CO *136 *
DALLAS-FORT WORTH,TX *135 *
CONCORDIA,KS *131 *
ELY,NV *131 *
KAHULUI,HI *131 *
ELKO,NV *130 *
WACO,TX *130 *
APALACHICOLA,FL *128 *
WICHITA,KS *128 *
COLORADO SPRINGS,CO *127 *
TULSA,OK *127 *
SEXTON SUMMIT,OR *126 *
SALT LAKE CITY,UT *125 *
FORT SMITH,AR *123 *
GRAND ISLAND,NE *123 *
VALENTINE,NE *123 *
DEL RIO,TX *121 *
GREENVILLE-SPARTANBURG AP,SC *121 *
WAKE ISLAND,PC *121 *
BOISE,ID *120 *
BURNS,OR *120 *
KANSAS CITY,MO *120 *
LITTLE ROCK,AR *119 *
TUPELO,MS *119 *
MEMPHIS,TN *118 *
LINCOLN,NE *117 *
MEDFORD,OR *117 *
NORFOLK,NE *117 *
AUSTIN,TX *115 *
COLUMBIA,SC *115 *
DENVER,CO *115 *
NORTH PLATTE,NE *115 *
SCOTTSBLUFF,NE *115 *
SPRINGFIELD,MO *115 *
LANDER,WY *114 *
SHREVEPORT,LA *114 *
TOPEKA,KS *114 *
ATHENS,GA *113 *
CAIRO,IL *113 *
AUGUSTA,GA *112 *
LYNCHBURG,VA *112 *
MACON,GA *112 *
JACKSON,MS *111 *
OMAHA EPPLEY AP,NE *111 *
RALEIGH,NC *111 *
RAPID CITY,SD *111 *
WILMINGTON,NC *111 *
ATLANTA,GA *110 *
COLUMBUS,GA *110 *
OMAHA (NORTH),NE *110 *
CAPE HATTERAS,NC *109 *
CHARLOTTE,NC *109 *
GREENSBORO-WNSTN-SALM-HGHPT,NC *109 *
OAK RIDGE,TN *109 *
YAKIMA,WA *109 *
MERIDIAN,MS *108 *
CASPER,WY *107 *
MONTGOMERY,AL *107 *
*NEW YORK C.PARK,NY 107*
CHEYENNE,WY *106 *
NORFOLK,VA *106 *
POCATELLO,ID *106 *
BALTIMORE,MD *105 *
DES MOINES,IA *105 *
PENSACOLA,FL *105 *
SAN ANTONIO,TX *105 *
SIOUX FALLS,SD *105 *
CHATTANOOGA,TN *104 *
COLUMBIA,MO *104 *
HURON,SD *104 *
KEY WEST,FL *104 *
SAVANNAH,GA *104 *
SIOUX CITY,IA *104 *
SPRINGFIELD,IL *104 *
CHARLESTON AP,SC *102 *
CORPUS CHRISTI,TX *102 *
EVANSVILLE,IN *102 *
MOBILE,AL *102 *
NASHVILLE,TN *102 *
ROANOKE,VA *102 *
TALLAHASSEE,FL *102 *
ABERDEEN,SD *101 *
MOLINE,IL *101 *
NEW ORLEANS,LA *101 *
PADUCAH,KY *101 *
PENDLETON,OR *101 *
PORTLAND,ME *101 *
ST.LOUIS,MO *101 *
TAMPA,FL *101 *
HUNTSVILLE,AL *100 *
KOTZEBUE,AK *100 *
RICHMOND,VA *100 *
ASHEVILLE,NC *99* 
BATON ROUGE,LA *99* 
BIRMINGHAM AP,AL *99* 
BRIDGEPORT,CT *99* 
JOHNSTON ISLAND,PC *99* 
BLOCK IS.,RI *98* 
BOSTON,MA *98* 
FORT MYERS,FL *98* 
LAKE CHARLES,LA *98* 
*NEW YORK (JFK AP),NY 98*
PROVIDENCE,RI *98 *
DAYTONA BEACH,FL *97* 
KNOXVILLE,TN *97* 
SAINT CLOUD,MN *97* 
WILMINGTON,DE *97* 
BROWNSVILLE,TX *96* 
NEW YORK (LAGUARDIA AP),NY *96* 
WASHINGTON NAT'L AP,D.C. *96* 
LA CROSSE,WI *95* 
MINNEAPOLIS-ST.PAUL,MN *95* 
PEORIA,IL *95* 
PORT ARTHUR,TX *95* 
SHERIDAN,WY *95* 
ALLENTOWN,PA *94* 
ATLANTIC CITY AP,NJ *94* 
JACKSONVILLE,FL *94* 
BISMARCK,ND *93* 
LOUISVILLE,KY *93* 
NEWARK,NJ *93* 
PHILADELPHIA,PA *93* 
ROCKFORD,IL *93* 
WILLISTON,ND *93* 
DUBUQUE,IA *92* 
WASHINGTON DULLES AP,D.C. *92* 
LEWISTON,ID *91* 
NOME,AK *91* 
WATERLOO,IA *91* 
CONCORD,NH *90* 
HONOLULU,HI *90* 
*HOUSTON,TX 90 *
MILWAUKEE,WI *90* 
WORCESTER,MA *90* 
BILLINGS,MT *89* 
LEXINGTON,KY *89* 
MADISON,WI *89* 
ORLANDO,FL *89* 
BRISTOL-JHNSN CTY-KNGSPRT,TN *88* 
FARGO,ND *88* 
INDIANAPOLIS,IN *88* 
HARRISBURG,PA *87* 
BETTLES,AK *86* 
GLASGOW,MT *86* 
ROCHESTER,MN *86 *
SPOKANE,WA *86* 
VICTORIA,TX *86* 
GREEN BAY,WI *85* 
MIDDLETOWN/HARRISBURG INTL APT *85* 
*CHICAGO,IL 84 *
UNALAKLEET,AK *83* 
HARTFORD,CT *82* 
HELENA,MT *82* 
GREATER CINCINNATI AP *81* 
GREAT FALLS,MT *79* 
FORT WAYNE,IN *78 *
DAYTON,OH *77 *
DULUTH,MN *77 *
EUREKA,CA. *77* 
SALEM,OR *77* 
INTERNATIONAL FALLS,MN *76 *
DETROIT,MI *75* 
EUGENE,OR *75* 
MISSOULA,MT *75* 
MUSKEGON,MI *75* 
WEST PALM BEACH,FL *75 *
MIAMI,FL *74* 
JACKSON,KY *73* 
MANSFIELD,OH *73* 
SAN JUAN,PR *73* 
SOUTH BEND,IN *73* 
TOLEDO,OH *73* 
COLUMBUS,OH *72* 
LANSING,MI *71* 
SEATTLE C.O.,WA * 71 *
AVOCA,PA *70* 
FAIRBANKS,AK *70* 
KALISPELL,MT *70* 
ALBANY,NY *69* 
AKRON,OH *68* 
PORTLAND,OR *68* 
ALPENA,MI *67 *
GULKANA,AK *67* 
MCGRATH,AK *67* 
TALKEETNA,AK *67* 
WILLIAMSPORT,PA *67* 
BARROW,AK *66* 
CLEVELAND,OH *66* 
FLINT,MI *66* 
SAULT STE.MARIE,MI *66* 
CHARLESTON,WV *65 *
HOMER,AK *65* 
HOUGHTON LAKE,MI *65* 
GRAND RAPIDS,MI *64* 
ERIE,PA *63* 
HUNTINGTON,WV *63* 
SYRACUSE,NY *63* 
YOUNGSTOWN,OH *63* 
BETHEL,AK *62* 
ANCHORAGE,AK *61* 
ROCHESTER,NY *61* 
BECKLEY,WV *60* 
BIG DELTA,AK *60* 
CARIBOU,ME *59* 
KODIAK,AK *59* 
PITTSBURGH,PA *59* 
BURLINGTON,VT *58* 
SEATTLE SEA-TAC AP,WA *58* 
VALDEZ,AK *58* 
LIHUE,HI *56* 
BUFFALO,NY *54*

Source of Information: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), National Climatic Data Center

Stick to whatever it is your good at, this is clearly over your head......


----------



## Oddball

uscitizen said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a republican, turd burglar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, I will bet you voted for bush a couple of time if old enough.
Click to expand...

You'd lose that bet.

I haven't voted for a single demopublicratican, federal, state or local, since '94.


----------



## Oddball

Wry Catcher said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a republican, turd burglar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, I will bet you voted for bush a couple of time if old enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Does Dude mean he's not a republican or not a Republican?  If the former he rejects the Constitution of the United States; if the latter he maybe a member of the idiot fringe, the far right wing of American politics.  My guess is he is both.  He supports our Constitution whenever it fits his agenda, and rejects it whenever it provides something which does.
> For example, I'm sure he believes the Second Amendment right to bear arms is sacrosanct, but rejects the principles when in practice of the Fourteenth.
Click to expand...

If you had the first idea of what you were talking about, you might be dangerous.

But you don't, and are merely an extremely neurotic fool.


----------



## Screaming Eagle

I live in Houston and I find the claim that we have 90 days worth of sunshine to be a tad spurious. This is overcast central around here.


----------



## rdean

Dude said:


> I'm not a republican, turd burglar.



No one said you were.  But you are a "potty mouth".  Do you eat with that thing?


----------



## rdean

mdn2000 said:


> Wind is a very old technology that has peaked, the only advance has been to make the windmill bigger, pretty funny huh, you got to think of the wooden windmills of Holland, all we are doing is making them out of fiberglass and that mega-sizing them.
> 
> Solar, real big joke, massive amounts of water need to be pumped to solar farms, so much water that you have to have a different source of energy to pump the water because the solar farm is too weak to pump its own water.
> 
> So why dont the *liberal/marxist environuts *show off their education, all I see is the left calling people names and posting links to press releases.
> 
> Here, show us your education
> 
> How much energy and which types does it take to make one ton of fiberglass



Who is calling names?

How about showing us YOUR education.  Just kidding.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, I will bet you voted for bush a couple of time if old enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Dude mean he's not a republican or not a Republican?  If the former he rejects the Constitution of the United States; if the latter he maybe a member of the idiot fringe, the far right wing of American politics.  My guess is he is both.  He supports our Constitution whenever it fits his agenda, and rejects it whenever it provides something which does.
> For example, I'm sure he believes the Second Amendment right to bear arms is sacrosanct, but rejects the principles when in practice of the Fourteenth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had the first idea of what you were talking about, you might be dangerous.
> 
> But you don't, and are merely an extremely neurotic fool.
Click to expand...


At your level dude, I resond:  _sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me_; or, _I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you call me bounces back and sticks to you_.


----------



## Wry Catcher

GWV5903 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I note that GWV5903 is a resident of Houston, TX.  Further note that Houston is not mentined on his/her list.
> By cherry picking regions for sunshine, s/he neglects (lies by omission) to note the entire Southwest, the deep south, as well as the western states of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and of course California have substantially more sunny days, and hours of sun each day then those s/he listed in the Northwest, New England and Alaska.  However, the neglect does not end there, the midwestern states are well known for wind, work is being done to capture wave and tidal power and to more cheaply collect hydrogen from water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was no intentional omission, the point was you have 23 cities that this would have ZERO benefit for, here is the complete list, so tell us old Wry one, what is the booming metropolis of Yuma, AZ going to do the 33% of the days they have no sunny days, BTW the percentage goes down from there and Houston the fourth largest city in America would have to find something to fill the void 75% of the time.....
> 
> Out of the 271 cities, 260 would need something else at least 50% of the time, that's an astonishing 96%, more "Truth" for the Al Gore fan club.....
> 
> One more thing, the country of Israel is sunny 90+% of the time.....
> 
> YUMA,AZ *242 *
> PHOENIX,AZ *211 *
> LAS VEGAS,NV *210 *
> BISHOP,CA *201 *
> FRESNO,CA *194 *
> EL PASO,TX *193 *
> TUCSON,AZ *193 *
> BAKERSFIELD,CA *191 *
> SACRAMENTO,CA *188 *
> *LOS ANGELES C.O.,CA 186*
> STOCKTON,CA *184 *
> WINSLOW,AZ *177 *
> SANTA MARIA,CA *176 *
> BLUE CANYON,CA *174 *
> REDDING,CA *172 *
> ROSWELL,NM *168 *
> ALBUQUERQUE,NM *167 *
> MIDLAND-ODESSA,TX *165 *
> MOUNT SHASTA, CA *164 *
> CLAYTON,NM *162 *
> FLAGSTAFF,AZ *162 *
> LUBBOCK,TX *160 *
> SAN FRANCISCO AP,CA *160 *
> LONG BEACH,CA *159 *
> RENO,NV *158 *
> AMARILLO,TX *157 *
> SAN ANGELO,TX *154 *
> MILFORD,UT *151 *
> WICHITA FALLS,TX *151 *
> ABILENE,TX *149 *
> ALAMOSA,CO *148 *
> *LOS ANGELES AP,CA 147 *
> SAN DIEGO,CA 146
> GOODLAND,KS *143 *
> OKLAHOMA CITY,OK *139 *
> PUEBLO,CO *139 *
> WINNEMUCCA,NV *138 *
> DODGE CITY,KS *137 *
> GRAND JUNCTION,CO *136 *
> DALLAS-FORT WORTH,TX *135 *
> CONCORDIA,KS *131 *
> ELY,NV *131 *
> KAHULUI,HI *131 *
> ELKO,NV *130 *
> WACO,TX *130 *
> APALACHICOLA,FL *128 *
> WICHITA,KS *128 *
> COLORADO SPRINGS,CO *127 *
> TULSA,OK *127 *
> SEXTON SUMMIT,OR *126 *
> SALT LAKE CITY,UT *125 *
> FORT SMITH,AR *123 *
> GRAND ISLAND,NE *123 *
> VALENTINE,NE *123 *
> DEL RIO,TX *121 *
> GREENVILLE-SPARTANBURG AP,SC *121 *
> WAKE ISLAND,PC *121 *
> BOISE,ID *120 *
> BURNS,OR *120 *
> KANSAS CITY,MO *120 *
> LITTLE ROCK,AR *119 *
> TUPELO,MS *119 *
> MEMPHIS,TN *118 *
> LINCOLN,NE *117 *
> MEDFORD,OR *117 *
> NORFOLK,NE *117 *
> AUSTIN,TX *115 *
> COLUMBIA,SC *115 *
> DENVER,CO *115 *
> NORTH PLATTE,NE *115 *
> SCOTTSBLUFF,NE *115 *
> SPRINGFIELD,MO *115 *
> LANDER,WY *114 *
> SHREVEPORT,LA *114 *
> TOPEKA,KS *114 *
> ATHENS,GA *113 *
> CAIRO,IL *113 *
> AUGUSTA,GA *112 *
> LYNCHBURG,VA *112 *
> MACON,GA *112 *
> JACKSON,MS *111 *
> OMAHA EPPLEY AP,NE *111 *
> RALEIGH,NC *111 *
> RAPID CITY,SD *111 *
> WILMINGTON,NC *111 *
> ATLANTA,GA *110 *
> COLUMBUS,GA *110 *
> OMAHA (NORTH),NE *110 *
> CAPE HATTERAS,NC *109 *
> CHARLOTTE,NC *109 *
> GREENSBORO-WNSTN-SALM-HGHPT,NC *109 *
> OAK RIDGE,TN *109 *
> YAKIMA,WA *109 *
> MERIDIAN,MS *108 *
> CASPER,WY *107 *
> MONTGOMERY,AL *107 *
> *NEW YORK C.PARK,NY 107*
> CHEYENNE,WY *106 *
> NORFOLK,VA *106 *
> POCATELLO,ID *106 *
> BALTIMORE,MD *105 *
> DES MOINES,IA *105 *
> PENSACOLA,FL *105 *
> SAN ANTONIO,TX *105 *
> SIOUX FALLS,SD *105 *
> CHATTANOOGA,TN *104 *
> COLUMBIA,MO *104 *
> HURON,SD *104 *
> KEY WEST,FL *104 *
> SAVANNAH,GA *104 *
> SIOUX CITY,IA *104 *
> SPRINGFIELD,IL *104 *
> CHARLESTON AP,SC *102 *
> CORPUS CHRISTI,TX *102 *
> EVANSVILLE,IN *102 *
> MOBILE,AL *102 *
> NASHVILLE,TN *102 *
> ROANOKE,VA *102 *
> TALLAHASSEE,FL *102 *
> ABERDEEN,SD *101 *
> MOLINE,IL *101 *
> NEW ORLEANS,LA *101 *
> PADUCAH,KY *101 *
> PENDLETON,OR *101 *
> PORTLAND,ME *101 *
> ST.LOUIS,MO *101 *
> TAMPA,FL *101 *
> HUNTSVILLE,AL *100 *
> KOTZEBUE,AK *100 *
> RICHMOND,VA *100 *
> ASHEVILLE,NC *99*
> BATON ROUGE,LA *99*
> BIRMINGHAM AP,AL *99*
> BRIDGEPORT,CT *99*
> JOHNSTON ISLAND,PC *99*
> BLOCK IS.,RI *98*
> BOSTON,MA *98*
> FORT MYERS,FL *98*
> LAKE CHARLES,LA *98*
> *NEW YORK (JFK AP),NY 98*
> PROVIDENCE,RI *98 *
> DAYTONA BEACH,FL *97*
> KNOXVILLE,TN *97*
> SAINT CLOUD,MN *97*
> WILMINGTON,DE *97*
> BROWNSVILLE,TX *96*
> NEW YORK (LAGUARDIA AP),NY *96*
> WASHINGTON NAT'L AP,D.C. *96*
> LA CROSSE,WI *95*
> MINNEAPOLIS-ST.PAUL,MN *95*
> PEORIA,IL *95*
> PORT ARTHUR,TX *95*
> SHERIDAN,WY *95*
> ALLENTOWN,PA *94*
> ATLANTIC CITY AP,NJ *94*
> JACKSONVILLE,FL *94*
> BISMARCK,ND *93*
> LOUISVILLE,KY *93*
> NEWARK,NJ *93*
> PHILADELPHIA,PA *93*
> ROCKFORD,IL *93*
> WILLISTON,ND *93*
> DUBUQUE,IA *92*
> WASHINGTON DULLES AP,D.C. *92*
> LEWISTON,ID *91*
> NOME,AK *91*
> WATERLOO,IA *91*
> CONCORD,NH *90*
> HONOLULU,HI *90*
> *HOUSTON,TX 90 *
> MILWAUKEE,WI *90*
> WORCESTER,MA *90*
> BILLINGS,MT *89*
> LEXINGTON,KY *89*
> MADISON,WI *89*
> ORLANDO,FL *89*
> BRISTOL-JHNSN CTY-KNGSPRT,TN *88*
> FARGO,ND *88*
> INDIANAPOLIS,IN *88*
> HARRISBURG,PA *87*
> BETTLES,AK *86*
> GLASGOW,MT *86*
> ROCHESTER,MN *86 *
> SPOKANE,WA *86*
> VICTORIA,TX *86*
> GREEN BAY,WI *85*
> MIDDLETOWN/HARRISBURG INTL APT *85*
> *CHICAGO,IL 84 *
> UNALAKLEET,AK *83*
> HARTFORD,CT *82*
> HELENA,MT *82*
> GREATER CINCINNATI AP *81*
> GREAT FALLS,MT *79*
> FORT WAYNE,IN *78 *
> DAYTON,OH *77 *
> DULUTH,MN *77 *
> EUREKA,CA. *77*
> SALEM,OR *77*
> INTERNATIONAL FALLS,MN *76 *
> DETROIT,MI *75*
> EUGENE,OR *75*
> MISSOULA,MT *75*
> MUSKEGON,MI *75*
> WEST PALM BEACH,FL *75 *
> MIAMI,FL *74*
> JACKSON,KY *73*
> MANSFIELD,OH *73*
> SAN JUAN,PR *73*
> SOUTH BEND,IN *73*
> TOLEDO,OH *73*
> COLUMBUS,OH *72*
> LANSING,MI *71*
> SEATTLE C.O.,WA * 71 *
> AVOCA,PA *70*
> FAIRBANKS,AK *70*
> KALISPELL,MT *70*
> ALBANY,NY *69*
> AKRON,OH *68*
> PORTLAND,OR *68*
> ALPENA,MI *67 *
> GULKANA,AK *67*
> MCGRATH,AK *67*
> TALKEETNA,AK *67*
> WILLIAMSPORT,PA *67*
> BARROW,AK *66*
> CLEVELAND,OH *66*
> FLINT,MI *66*
> SAULT STE.MARIE,MI *66*
> CHARLESTON,WV *65 *
> HOMER,AK *65*
> HOUGHTON LAKE,MI *65*
> GRAND RAPIDS,MI *64*
> ERIE,PA *63*
> HUNTINGTON,WV *63*
> SYRACUSE,NY *63*
> YOUNGSTOWN,OH *63*
> BETHEL,AK *62*
> ANCHORAGE,AK *61*
> ROCHESTER,NY *61*
> BECKLEY,WV *60*
> BIG DELTA,AK *60*
> CARIBOU,ME *59*
> KODIAK,AK *59*
> PITTSBURGH,PA *59*
> BURLINGTON,VT *58*
> SEATTLE SEA-TAC AP,WA *58*
> VALDEZ,AK *58*
> LIHUE,HI *56*
> BUFFALO,NY *54*
> 
> Source of Information: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), National Climatic Data Center
> 
> Stick to whatever it is your good at, this is clearly over your head......
Click to expand...


_Some cities would require other sources of energy_, no shit Sherlock.  Would some cities then require less energy from coal or other pollution producing sources of energy?
Think real hard now...


----------



## Wry Catcher

Dude said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, I will bet you voted for bush a couple of time if old enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Dude mean he's not a republican or not a Republican?  If the former he rejects the Constitution of the United States; if the latter he maybe a member of the idiot fringe, the far right wing of American politics.  My guess is he is both.  He supports our Constitution whenever it fits his agenda, and rejects it whenever it provides something which does.
> For example, I'm sure he believes the Second Amendment right to bear arms is sacrosanct, but rejects the principles when in practice of the Fourteenth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had the first idea of what you were talking about, you might be dangerous.
> 
> But you don't, and are merely an extremely neurotic fool.
Click to expand...


Dude, seriously now, you really don't understand the distinction between Republican and republican?  Are you really that ignorant?


----------



## mdn2000

rdean said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind is a very old technology that has peaked, the only advance has been to make the windmill bigger, pretty funny huh, you got to think of the wooden windmills of Holland, all we are doing is making them out of fiberglass and that mega-sizing them.
> 
> Solar, real big joke, massive amounts of water need to be pumped to solar farms, so much water that you have to have a different source of energy to pump the water because the solar farm is too weak to pump its own water.
> 
> So why dont the *liberal/marxist environuts *show off their education, all I see is the left calling people names and posting links to press releases.
> 
> Here, show us your education
> 
> How much energy and which types does it take to make one ton of fiberglass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who is calling names?
> 
> How about showing us YOUR education.  Just kidding.
Click to expand...


I dont want to point out names all the time, I seriously want people to look into what it takes to build green energy, its a giant scam by corporations that control the government.

Follow the money is the best way to look at all things political, who will make money, are there connections to big business.

Green energy requires a 100% back-up power, that can only be fossil fuel. Anyone who lives in southern california can see this, drive by the wind farm just east of the I-10 interstate freeway and there are hundreds of windmills and amongst the middle of them is a fossil fuel electrical energy plant. It is there because green energy companies are making contracts to provide power, they cannot reliably provide power so they must have a fossil fuel plant to fill the demands of contracts or they get sued, if not sued Southern California edison withholds payment for non-delivery. So a green energy wind farm sells Edison fossil fuel created electricity at the higher green energy rate, the higher rate of green energy although provided for less cost by the green energy company is still passed onto the customer.

Corporations win, those who supply fossil fuel to the wind farms.

Fossil fuel is used at wind farms to provide electricity to the grid and to supply electricity to the wind farm

Proof, 

go to google maps. i will try and link to this later

ido a search on 19 ave & Karen ave, palm springs, zoom in and three fossil fuel Co-Gen plants are clearly seen, right in the midst of the oldest wind farm in the nation.

19th ave and karen ave, fossil fuel plant supplies power to a wind farm. Now that is real green energy


----------



## GWV5903

Screaming Eagle said:


> I live in Houston and I find the claim that we have 90 days worth of sunshine to be a tad spurious. This is overcast central around here.



I found it a bit suspicious as well, today is a great example....


----------



## GWV5903

Wry Catcher said:


> GWV5903 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I note that GWV5903 is a resident of Houston, TX.  Further note that Houston is not mentined on his/her list.
> By cherry picking regions for sunshine, s/he neglects (lies by omission) to note the entire Southwest, the deep south, as well as the western states of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and of course California have substantially more sunny days, and hours of sun each day then those s/he listed in the Northwest, New England and Alaska.  However, the neglect does not end there, the midwestern states are well known for wind, work is being done to capture wave and tidal power and to more cheaply collect hydrogen from water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was no intentional omission, the point was you have 23 cities that this would have ZERO benefit for, here is the complete list, so tell us old Wry one, what is the booming metropolis of Yuma, AZ going to do the 33% of the days they have no sunny days, BTW the percentage goes down from there and Houston the fourth largest city in America would have to find something to fill the void 75% of the time.....
> 
> Out of the 271 cities, 260 would need something else at least 50% of the time, that's an astonishing 96%, more "Truth" for the Al Gore fan club.....
> 
> One more thing, the country of Israel is sunny 90+% of the time.....
> 
> YUMA,AZ *242 *
> PHOENIX,AZ *211 *
> LAS VEGAS,NV *210 *
> BISHOP,CA *201 *
> FRESNO,CA *194 *
> EL PASO,TX *193 *
> TUCSON,AZ *193 *
> BAKERSFIELD,CA *191 *
> SACRAMENTO,CA *188 *
> *LOS ANGELES C.O.,CA 186*
> STOCKTON,CA *184 *
> WINSLOW,AZ *177 *
> SANTA MARIA,CA *176 *
> BLUE CANYON,CA *174 *
> REDDING,CA *172 *
> ROSWELL,NM *168 *
> ALBUQUERQUE,NM *167 *
> MIDLAND-ODESSA,TX *165 *
> MOUNT SHASTA, CA *164 *
> CLAYTON,NM *162 *
> FLAGSTAFF,AZ *162 *
> LUBBOCK,TX *160 *
> SAN FRANCISCO AP,CA *160 *
> LONG BEACH,CA *159 *
> RENO,NV *158 *
> AMARILLO,TX *157 *
> SAN ANGELO,TX *154 *
> MILFORD,UT *151 *
> WICHITA FALLS,TX *151 *
> ABILENE,TX *149 *
> ALAMOSA,CO *148 *
> *LOS ANGELES AP,CA 147 *
> SAN DIEGO,CA 146
> GOODLAND,KS *143 *
> OKLAHOMA CITY,OK *139 *
> PUEBLO,CO *139 *
> WINNEMUCCA,NV *138 *
> DODGE CITY,KS *137 *
> GRAND JUNCTION,CO *136 *
> DALLAS-FORT WORTH,TX *135 *
> CONCORDIA,KS *131 *
> ELY,NV *131 *
> KAHULUI,HI *131 *
> ELKO,NV *130 *
> WACO,TX *130 *
> APALACHICOLA,FL *128 *
> WICHITA,KS *128 *
> COLORADO SPRINGS,CO *127 *
> TULSA,OK *127 *
> SEXTON SUMMIT,OR *126 *
> SALT LAKE CITY,UT *125 *
> FORT SMITH,AR *123 *
> GRAND ISLAND,NE *123 *
> VALENTINE,NE *123 *
> DEL RIO,TX *121 *
> GREENVILLE-SPARTANBURG AP,SC *121 *
> WAKE ISLAND,PC *121 *
> BOISE,ID *120 *
> BURNS,OR *120 *
> KANSAS CITY,MO *120 *
> LITTLE ROCK,AR *119 *
> TUPELO,MS *119 *
> MEMPHIS,TN *118 *
> LINCOLN,NE *117 *
> MEDFORD,OR *117 *
> NORFOLK,NE *117 *
> AUSTIN,TX *115 *
> COLUMBIA,SC *115 *
> DENVER,CO *115 *
> NORTH PLATTE,NE *115 *
> SCOTTSBLUFF,NE *115 *
> SPRINGFIELD,MO *115 *
> LANDER,WY *114 *
> SHREVEPORT,LA *114 *
> TOPEKA,KS *114 *
> ATHENS,GA *113 *
> CAIRO,IL *113 *
> AUGUSTA,GA *112 *
> LYNCHBURG,VA *112 *
> MACON,GA *112 *
> JACKSON,MS *111 *
> OMAHA EPPLEY AP,NE *111 *
> RALEIGH,NC *111 *
> RAPID CITY,SD *111 *
> WILMINGTON,NC *111 *
> ATLANTA,GA *110 *
> COLUMBUS,GA *110 *
> OMAHA (NORTH),NE *110 *
> CAPE HATTERAS,NC *109 *
> CHARLOTTE,NC *109 *
> GREENSBORO-WNSTN-SALM-HGHPT,NC *109 *
> OAK RIDGE,TN *109 *
> YAKIMA,WA *109 *
> MERIDIAN,MS *108 *
> CASPER,WY *107 *
> MONTGOMERY,AL *107 *
> *NEW YORK C.PARK,NY 107*
> CHEYENNE,WY *106 *
> NORFOLK,VA *106 *
> POCATELLO,ID *106 *
> BALTIMORE,MD *105 *
> DES MOINES,IA *105 *
> PENSACOLA,FL *105 *
> SAN ANTONIO,TX *105 *
> SIOUX FALLS,SD *105 *
> CHATTANOOGA,TN *104 *
> COLUMBIA,MO *104 *
> HURON,SD *104 *
> KEY WEST,FL *104 *
> SAVANNAH,GA *104 *
> SIOUX CITY,IA *104 *
> SPRINGFIELD,IL *104 *
> CHARLESTON AP,SC *102 *
> CORPUS CHRISTI,TX *102 *
> EVANSVILLE,IN *102 *
> MOBILE,AL *102 *
> NASHVILLE,TN *102 *
> ROANOKE,VA *102 *
> TALLAHASSEE,FL *102 *
> ABERDEEN,SD *101 *
> MOLINE,IL *101 *
> NEW ORLEANS,LA *101 *
> PADUCAH,KY *101 *
> PENDLETON,OR *101 *
> PORTLAND,ME *101 *
> ST.LOUIS,MO *101 *
> TAMPA,FL *101 *
> HUNTSVILLE,AL *100 *
> KOTZEBUE,AK *100 *
> RICHMOND,VA *100 *
> ASHEVILLE,NC *99*
> BATON ROUGE,LA *99*
> BIRMINGHAM AP,AL *99*
> BRIDGEPORT,CT *99*
> JOHNSTON ISLAND,PC *99*
> BLOCK IS.,RI *98*
> BOSTON,MA *98*
> FORT MYERS,FL *98*
> LAKE CHARLES,LA *98*
> *NEW YORK (JFK AP),NY 98*
> PROVIDENCE,RI *98 *
> DAYTONA BEACH,FL *97*
> KNOXVILLE,TN *97*
> SAINT CLOUD,MN *97*
> WILMINGTON,DE *97*
> BROWNSVILLE,TX *96*
> NEW YORK (LAGUARDIA AP),NY *96*
> WASHINGTON NAT'L AP,D.C. *96*
> LA CROSSE,WI *95*
> MINNEAPOLIS-ST.PAUL,MN *95*
> PEORIA,IL *95*
> PORT ARTHUR,TX *95*
> SHERIDAN,WY *95*
> ALLENTOWN,PA *94*
> ATLANTIC CITY AP,NJ *94*
> JACKSONVILLE,FL *94*
> BISMARCK,ND *93*
> LOUISVILLE,KY *93*
> NEWARK,NJ *93*
> PHILADELPHIA,PA *93*
> ROCKFORD,IL *93*
> WILLISTON,ND *93*
> DUBUQUE,IA *92*
> WASHINGTON DULLES AP,D.C. *92*
> LEWISTON,ID *91*
> NOME,AK *91*
> WATERLOO,IA *91*
> CONCORD,NH *90*
> HONOLULU,HI *90*
> *HOUSTON,TX 90 *
> MILWAUKEE,WI *90*
> WORCESTER,MA *90*
> BILLINGS,MT *89*
> LEXINGTON,KY *89*
> MADISON,WI *89*
> ORLANDO,FL *89*
> BRISTOL-JHNSN CTY-KNGSPRT,TN *88*
> FARGO,ND *88*
> INDIANAPOLIS,IN *88*
> HARRISBURG,PA *87*
> BETTLES,AK *86*
> GLASGOW,MT *86*
> ROCHESTER,MN *86 *
> SPOKANE,WA *86*
> VICTORIA,TX *86*
> GREEN BAY,WI *85*
> MIDDLETOWN/HARRISBURG INTL APT *85*
> *CHICAGO,IL 84 *
> UNALAKLEET,AK *83*
> HARTFORD,CT *82*
> HELENA,MT *82*
> GREATER CINCINNATI AP *81*
> GREAT FALLS,MT *79*
> FORT WAYNE,IN *78 *
> DAYTON,OH *77 *
> DULUTH,MN *77 *
> EUREKA,CA. *77*
> SALEM,OR *77*
> INTERNATIONAL FALLS,MN *76 *
> DETROIT,MI *75*
> EUGENE,OR *75*
> MISSOULA,MT *75*
> MUSKEGON,MI *75*
> WEST PALM BEACH,FL *75 *
> MIAMI,FL *74*
> JACKSON,KY *73*
> MANSFIELD,OH *73*
> SAN JUAN,PR *73*
> SOUTH BEND,IN *73*
> TOLEDO,OH *73*
> COLUMBUS,OH *72*
> LANSING,MI *71*
> SEATTLE C.O.,WA * 71 *
> AVOCA,PA *70*
> FAIRBANKS,AK *70*
> KALISPELL,MT *70*
> ALBANY,NY *69*
> AKRON,OH *68*
> PORTLAND,OR *68*
> ALPENA,MI *67 *
> GULKANA,AK *67*
> MCGRATH,AK *67*
> TALKEETNA,AK *67*
> WILLIAMSPORT,PA *67*
> BARROW,AK *66*
> CLEVELAND,OH *66*
> FLINT,MI *66*
> SAULT STE.MARIE,MI *66*
> CHARLESTON,WV *65 *
> HOMER,AK *65*
> HOUGHTON LAKE,MI *65*
> GRAND RAPIDS,MI *64*
> ERIE,PA *63*
> HUNTINGTON,WV *63*
> SYRACUSE,NY *63*
> YOUNGSTOWN,OH *63*
> BETHEL,AK *62*
> ANCHORAGE,AK *61*
> ROCHESTER,NY *61*
> BECKLEY,WV *60*
> BIG DELTA,AK *60*
> CARIBOU,ME *59*
> KODIAK,AK *59*
> PITTSBURGH,PA *59*
> BURLINGTON,VT *58*
> SEATTLE SEA-TAC AP,WA *58*
> VALDEZ,AK *58*
> LIHUE,HI *56*
> BUFFALO,NY *54*
> 
> Source of Information: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), National Climatic Data Center
> 
> Stick to whatever it is your good at, this is clearly over your head......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Some cities would require other sources of energy_, no shit Sherlock.  Would some cities then require less energy from coal or other pollution producing sources of energy?
> Think real hard now...
Click to expand...


Wry your so slow, 96% would require 90 to 50 percent of their power from fossil fuels, sorry it is that hard for you to understand, next time I will consider a basic 1 + 1 = 2 for you....


----------



## Chris

mdn2000 said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind is a very old technology that has peaked, the only advance has been to make the windmill bigger, pretty funny huh, you got to think of the wooden windmills of Holland, all we are doing is making them out of fiberglass and that mega-sizing them.
> 
> Solar, real big joke, massive amounts of water need to be pumped to solar farms, so much water that you have to have a different source of energy to pump the water because the solar farm is too weak to pump its own water.
> 
> So why dont the *liberal/marxist environuts *show off their education, all I see is the left calling people names and posting links to press releases.
> 
> Here, show us your education
> 
> How much energy and which types does it take to make one ton of fiberglass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who is calling names?
> 
> How about showing us YOUR education.  Just kidding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I dont want to point out names all the time, I seriously want people to look into what it takes to build green energy, its a giant scam by corporations that control the government.
> 
> Follow the money is the best way to look at all things political, who will make money, are there connections to big business.
> 
> Green energy requires a 100% back-up power, that can only be fossil fuel. Anyone who lives in southern california can see this, drive by the wind farm just east of the I-10 interstate freeway and there are hundreds of windmills and amongst the middle of them is a fossil fuel electrical energy plant. It is there because green energy companies are making contracts to provide power, they cannot reliably provide power so they must have a fossil fuel plant to fill the demands of contracts or they get sued, if not sued Southern California edison withholds payment for non-delivery. So a green energy wind farm sells Edison fossil fuel created electricity at the higher green energy rate, the higher rate of green energy although provided for less cost by the green energy company is still passed onto the customer.
> 
> Corporations win, those who supply fossil fuel to the wind farms.
> 
> Fossil fuel is used at wind farms to provide electricity to the grid and to supply electricity to the wind farm
> 
> Proof,
> 
> go to google maps. i will try and link to this later
> 
> ido a search on 19 ave & Karen ave, palm springs, zoom in and three fossil fuel Co-Gen plants are clearly seen, right in the midst of the oldest wind farm in the nation.
> 
> 19th ave and karen ave, fossil fuel plant supplies power to a wind farm. Now that is real green energy
Click to expand...


The Hoover Dam is green energy.

Does it require backup power?


----------



## Oddball

Name the last time envirowackjobs like you let a hydro dam project move forward, dipshit.


----------



## Chris

Dude said:


> Name the last time envirowackjobs like you let a hydro dam project move forward, dipshit.



Name one time I opposed a dam project, numb nuts.


----------



## JW Frogen

GWV5903 said:


> One more thing, the country of Israel is sunny 90+% of the time.....:



 Today's forcast sunny, 80 degrees F, with some Hamas rocket showers in the late afternoon.


----------



## Oddball

Chris said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name the last time envirowackjobs like you let a hydro dam project move forward, dipshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name one time I opposed a dam project, numb nuts.
Click to expand...

Thanks for not answering the question, skidmark.

How 'bout you Google "Two Forks Dam" and get an education on the lunacy you support.


----------



## Chris

Dude said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name the last time envirowackjobs like you let a hydro dam project move forward, dipshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name one time I opposed a dam project, numb nuts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for not answering the question, skidmark.
> 
> How 'bout you Google "Two Forks Dam" and get an education on the lunacy you support.
Click to expand...


You are lying as usual.

I don't support opposition to dams.


----------



## Oddball

I'm not lying at all. You are an enviroloon who supports other enviroloons who oppose the building of hydro projects.

You're guilty of aiding and abetting.


----------



## Chris

Dude said:


> I'm not lying at all. You are an enviroloon who supports other enviroloons who oppose the building of hydro projects.
> 
> You're guilty of aiding and abetting.



Liar, liar, liar.


----------



## Oddball

You want some liars, shit biscuit??

Here ya go: http://www.usmessageboard.com/environment/95445-a-globalclimatecoolerwarmering-conspiracy-3.html

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/hadley_hacked#63657


----------



## mdn2000

Chris said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who is calling names?
> 
> How about showing us YOUR education.  Just kidding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont want to point out names all the time, I seriously want people to look into what it takes to build green energy, its a giant scam by corporations that control the government.
> 
> Follow the money is the best way to look at all things political, who will make money, are there connections to big business.
> 
> Green energy requires a 100% back-up power, that can only be fossil fuel. Anyone who lives in southern california can see this, drive by the wind farm just east of the I-10 interstate freeway and there are hundreds of windmills and amongst the middle of them is a fossil fuel electrical energy plant. It is there because green energy companies are making contracts to provide power, they cannot reliably provide power so they must have a fossil fuel plant to fill the demands of contracts or they get sued, if not sued Southern California edison withholds payment for non-delivery. So a green energy wind farm sells Edison fossil fuel created electricity at the higher green energy rate, the higher rate of green energy although provided for less cost by the green energy company is still passed onto the customer.
> 
> Corporations win, those who supply fossil fuel to the wind farms.
> 
> Fossil fuel is used at wind farms to provide electricity to the grid and to supply electricity to the wind farm
> 
> Proof,
> 
> go to google maps. i will try and link to this later
> 
> ido a search on 19 ave & Karen ave, palm springs, zoom in and three fossil fuel Co-Gen plants are clearly seen, right in the midst of the oldest wind farm in the nation.
> 
> 19th ave and karen ave, fossil fuel plant supplies power to a wind farm. Now that is real green energy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Hoover Dam is green energy.
> 
> Does it require backup power?
Click to expand...


the hoover dam is not green, dams have never been green, the environut movement was started fighting dams, the Sierra clubs first fight was against dams in the grand canyon.

dams are a tremendous waste of energy, go read the classic environut book that is extremely truthful and made into a PBS series;

The Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner 

I own the book, quick news flash for you Chris, I am educated, I know what I speak of, especially in energy. I am not just posting links, I am giving you accurate information in which bullshit just wont fly. I know its all for naught, windmills are being built despite the truth and facts. I wish you were really concerned, shit is going to come and bite you in the ass if it aint already. 

Chris, you made the comment that you made more money than me, you may or may not, it really dont matter, despite making 65k this year I live pay day to pay day and cannot afford an increase in the cost of electricity, which reminds me I aint paid the bill in a two months so I better call if I want electricity if I make it to my piece of shit mobil home sitting in the hills of temecula. People should be able to live easily on less than I make, I struggle. I am fucked by the government because I married a woman from brazil, I have paid thousands to get my wife here and the red tape liberals who take government jobs have screwed me, I get to see my kids and wife a month from now simply because life aint free in the USA. 

Chris, you may make more than me you may not, dont really matter, I will be broke tomorrow and I pay higher taxes to support liberal ideals, despite all this tonight I will sit down for a meal in Carmel you can only dream of, my elbows will brush with the richest mother-fuckers in the USA. I will drink the same wine and eat the same pasta at Napoli by the Sea, last time I ate here I spent 150$ all by myself, dinner for one, and I had spaghetti and meatballs. 

Chris, you aint got shit on no one, money wise or, well I will leave it at that and not take a cheap shot, I would prefer you and all others to see your error.

I support my posts, I can give facts and source, when I speak my knowledge and intelligence is impossible to refute, not because I am smarter, simply because I have recognized truth and have done my homework.

The Hoover dam is not green, the book Cadillac Desert easily proves this, if I was home I would give you quote, I am not home, I do not google, I dont cite wikipedia. Argue if you like, you dont argue with me, you argue with Marc Reisner, the man who wrote Cadillac Desert.


----------



## mdn2000

Wry Catcher said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I note that GWV5903 is a resident of Houston, TX.  Further note that Houston is not mentined on his/her list.
> By cherry picking regions for sunshine, s/he neglects (lies by omission) to note the entire Southwest, the deep south, as well as the western states of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and of course California have substantially more sunny days, and hours of sun each day then those s/he listed in the Northwest, New England and Alaska.  However, the neglect does not end there, the midwestern states are well known for wind, work is being done to capture wave and tidal power and to more cheaply collect hydrogen from water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how many effective hours in one day, how does that change in the winter vs the summer, there is a huge difference in the length of the day in summer and winter, actually its a different number each and every day so it would be more accurate to state how many effective hours for summer, fall, sprng, and winter.
> 
> There is not clean energy technology, it is a fact that everything green produces more CO2 than fossil fuel, you must use fossil fuel to build the wind mill, the solar panel, to make hydrogen, and to make a geothermal plant.
> 
> Green Energy is not about saving the planet, I have yet to see one person explain how they can make a windmill without using fossil fuels.
> 
> Green Energy is an Oxymoron. It simply does not exsist.
> 
> So those who support Green Energy and ignore how you produce the power plants are either morons or marxist.
> 
> when confronted with a simple fact that has yet to be shown false, when that fact is repeatedly ignored by those of you that supposedly better educated, how can anyone see the green energy supporters as anything but being either a liberal/marxist or a moron
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, nice rant.  Wind and water mills have been around for centuries, wood fins, wood gears, wood drive shafts for pumping water or grinding grain.  My pool is heated by the sun, of course the black hose which circulates the water and the pump were produced using energy, but to pump the water throught the filter and hose requires much less energy than a gas pool heater.
> Green energy exists, take rocks heated in the sun and put them in your sleeping bag.  Warm, and as green as green gets.
> I wonder, do you also believe the earth is flat?
> 
> PS
> liberal and Marxist are words which describe different world views; calling someone a moron is simply using a pejorative and has zero relevance to the debate.  Pejoratives are used by those unable to provide a credible argument.
Click to expand...


green energy exists, so prove it, your speaking of windmills, tell us how much energy is used to create a ton of fiberglass, tell us what kinds of energy are used to create a ton of fiberglass, tell us how many tons of fiberglass in one windmill, tell us how much energy the generater connected to the wind turbine could make when connected to heat exchanger used in the primary coolant system of a PWR.

Green energy exists, tell us why there is fossil fuel plant sitting at the corner of 19th ave and Karen ave in palm springs, look it up on google maps and zoom in, this Co-gen plant provided power to a windmill farm.

Tell us how much electrical energy is used in an idle windmill farm.

How many tons of copper are used in each individual windmill?

Green energy does not exist, Morons exsist


----------



## Oddball

Another question I can't get any environutter to unambiguously answer:

How long does one of those goofy windmills have to be up and operating before its so-called "carbon footprint" from manufacturing, shipping, erecting and maintaining it is negated?


----------



## Screaming Eagle

Dude said:


> Another question I can't get any environutter to unambiguously answer:
> 
> How long does one of those goofy windmills have to be up and operating before its so-called "carbon footprint" from manufacturing, shipping, erecting and maintaining it is negated?



About 10 times as long as it lasts.


----------



## mdn2000

Screaming Eagle said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another question I can't get any environutter to unambiguously answer:
> 
> How long does one of those goofy windmills have to be up and operating before its so-called "carbon footprint" from manufacturing, shipping, erecting and maintaining it is negated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 10 times as long as it lasts.
Click to expand...


Yea but if it dont last forever does it turn green when it dies, I mean, its green right, so even if we throw it in the garbage it makes the earth smell sweet right, its just pure green sweetness giving us good when its created and it never dies, windmills are the jesus, right, saving the earth.


----------



## Old Rocks

Mdn, don't post when you are drunk, you are stupid enough stone cold sober.


----------



## mdn2000

Old Rocks said:


> Mdn, don't post when you are drunk, you are stupid enough stone cold sober.



Hey asshole, why dont you post the source in alternative energy, are you too dumb to something as simple as post the source for your own thread.

Stupid yet you hide when I ask you one simple question. 

Stupid is old crock in LOL, here is an example, Old Crock stated there was geothermal plant with design flaw at the salton sea in rebuttal to my fact that geothermal is extremely dirty energy. When asked old crock refused to provide the name of the plant. The stupid part is that OLD CROCK than posted an aritcle describing a geothermal plant that is making 100's of millions of dollars, STUPID THING FOR OLD CROCK TO DO, the article was ten years old, the geothermal plant had a design flaw and never worked, total losses of $500,000,000. 

Old Crock posted that a geothermal plant had a design flaw
Old Crock when challenged failed to name the plant
Old Crock than used the same plant as an example of profitable clean geothermal
Old Crock used a ten year old article
Old Crock used a crippled money losing geothermal plant that never worked 
Old Crock proved Old Crock is stupid

Go post your source for you other thread dumbass, I am tempted to call you a drunk or pot smoker but just cuz folks use drugs or booze dont make them dumb

Old Crock was born dumb, hell he worked in two steel mills, most likely got fired for being dumb, I would not doubt that Old Crock faked an injury and is on disability but thats a different debate that Old Crock will obviously deny, point being:

A person born a dumb-ass-fool will always be a dumb-ass-fool, old crock goes out of his way to prove this


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## mdn2000

mdn2000 said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another question I can't get any environutter to unambiguously answer:
> 
> How long does one of those goofy windmills have to be up and operating before its so-called "carbon footprint" from manufacturing, shipping, erecting and maintaining it is negated?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 10 times as long as it lasts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea but if it dont last forever does it turn green when it dies, I mean, its green right, so even if we throw it in the garbage it makes the earth smell sweet right, its just pure green sweetness giving us good when its created and it never dies, windmills are the jesus, right, saving the earth.
Click to expand...


over board sarcasm but where does a 270 ton windmill get thrown away?
That point is in there, the stupid cant see that though.


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## Chris

mdn2000 said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> About 10 times as long as it lasts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea but if it dont last forever does it turn green when it dies, I mean, its green right, so even if we throw it in the garbage it makes the earth smell sweet right, its just pure green sweetness giving us good when its created and it never dies, windmills are the jesus, right, saving the earth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> over board sarcasm but where does a 270 ton windmill get thrown away?
> That point is in there, the stupid cant see that though.
Click to expand...


No, you are stupid.

America spends $100 billion dollars a year on foreign oil. 

It is the greatest national security threat we face.

Alternative energy is made in America.


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## mdn2000

Chris said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea but if it dont last forever does it turn green when it dies, I mean, its green right, so even if we throw it in the garbage it makes the earth smell sweet right, its just pure green sweetness giving us good when its created and it never dies, windmills are the jesus, right, saving the earth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> over board sarcasm but where does a 270 ton windmill get thrown away?
> That point is in there, the stupid cant see that though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, you are stupid.
> 
> America spends $100 billion dollars a year on foreign oil.
> 
> It is the greatest national security threat we face.
> 
> Alternative energy is made in America.
Click to expand...


no, your stupid

America spends on foreign oil, so what, we spend money all kinds of foreign stuff, I saw this on TV, Barack Obama said we spent this moeny and now you repeat what Obama said, wow, that makes you so smart.

Alternative energy is made in the USA, nope, its not, tiny portion but the majority is made overseas.

Vesta is one of the biggest exporters of windmills to the USA, buying the fiberglass from China. 

So Chris is stupid, Chris thought alternative energy was made in the USA.

Oil, you cannot make fiberglass without oil, currently I am researching fiberglass production. You cannot make fiberglass without fossil fuels. How can a wind mill be green if you use fossil fuels to make it, wind mills use more energy than they make. 

Middle Eastern oil is the best oil in the world that is why we use it, that is why Obama is doing nothing to end our use of Middle Eastern oil, the oil companies are pushing for green energy because they are the same people who make windmills. The more raw materials these democrat business men can use and sell the more money they make, windmills is the biggest market for the oil companies as far as petrochemicals go and for the raw materials their other businesses produce. 

Not one word from the Oil Companies protesting green energy, why, because its using what they produce and a greater rate.


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## HUGGY

Chris said:


> ANAHEIM, Calif.  The world's solar companies gathered here recently amid the nation's largest solar market under a brilliant sun  and the looming shadow of China.
> China leads the world in making solar cells, the key component in solar panels, many of which are exported to the U.S.
> 
> But China is setting itself up to do more than just manufacture components for renewable energy, such as wind and solar. It's also spending heavily to build its own domestic market as it attempts to battle its greenhouse gas emissions, electrify its nation of 1.3 billion people and curb its massive pollution problem.
> 
> The buildup of a huge market in China for renewable energy is luring global manufacturers and research teams to China, energy executives say. That's causing concern in some corners that China  not the U.S.  will emerge as the hub of the new industries, leaving the U.S. as dependent on foreign nations for solar panels, wind turbines and other green-energy equipment and technology as it is on the Mideast for oil.
> 
> "The Chinese government has recognized that these industries are the 21st century's industries of importance, and it wants to be the Silicon Valley of renewables," says Alan Salzman, CEO of U.S.-based VantagePoint Venture Partners, which specializes in clean energy and clean tech investments.
> 
> He says the U.S. hasn't been as clear or as determined as China, a stance echoed by Energy Secretary Steven Chu in testimony before a Senate committee last month.
> 
> While China spends about $9 billion a month on clean energy development, the U.S. "has fallen behind," Chu said. He noted that the world's largest turbine-making company is headquartered in Denmark, that 99% of batteries for America's hybrid cars are made in Japan and that the U.S. has lost most of its solar cell manufacturing industry.
> 
> China pushes solar, wind power development - USATODAY.com



T Boone Pickens made us an offer over a year ago and it is still on the table.  Someone like that is what it will take to pick up the ball and run with it.  Commitees do not move enterprise.


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## Screaming Eagle

Actually T Boone has backed out and now has a huge amount of surplus inventory he doesn't know what to do with.


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## mdn2000

> while China spends about $9 billion a month on clean energy development


to 

Key point is this is not 9 billion on buying windmills, this is 9 billion investing in Nuclear and Fossil fuel plants to supply power to fiberglass producers as well as build factories for all aspects of building windmills to sell the the USA.

Westinghouse is selling AP1000 reactors to China, not sure of the number but I beleive 8 to start.

Wired magazine ran an article stating china plans on building one hundred reactors.


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## Old Rocks

mdn2000 said:


> while China spends about $9 billion a month on clean energy development
> 
> 
> 
> to
> 
> Key point is this is not 9 billion on buying windmills, this is 9 billion investing in Nuclear and Fossil fuel plants to supply power to fiberglass producers as well as build factories for all aspects of building windmills to sell the the USA.
> 
> Westinghouse is selling AP1000 reactors to China, not sure of the number but I beleive 8 to start.
> 
> Wired magazine ran an article stating china plans on building one hundred reactors.
Click to expand...


When are you going to stop pulling gibberish out of your asshole, Mdn? 

The Chinese have been using windmills for over 2000 years. And they are now a leading manufacturer of modern wind turbines.

The Niles Star » John Eby: Tilting at Chinese windmills with Lowe and Iacocca

The day before Halloween the Wall Street Journal trumpeted news that a Chinese firm will be the exclusive supplier to one of the largest wind-farm developments in the United States.

Trick or treat! And when did business leaders become an oxymoron?

Also, the developer of the project will be seeking U.S. taxpayer assistance!

Just like all the other overpaid, risk-averse captains of industry who used to espouse free markets and the invisible hand.

Are we nuts? We finally find something America could conceivably make to offset the collapse of our car industry and government intrusion into the marketplace and this opportunity is being outsourced, too?

If American firms cant competitively build clean energy projects, either, this country is doomed.

The 36,000-acre West Texas development announced it would purchase 240 2.5-megawatt wind turbines from Shenyang Power Group, a five-month-old alliance with operations in China.


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