# Job's Question



## PainefulTruth

_"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."_ Job 1:1

"Perfect"?   No authorship is claimed or implied, including God or Job.  It&#8217;s the first indication that Job is a parable.  

But then the author has Job getting frustrated:  "If only someone would listen to me! Look, I will sign my name to my defense. Let the Almighty answer me. Let my accuser write out the charges against me." Job 31:35

But there are no charges, leaving Job with his frustration and his unanswered question, _Why?_

 Job is perhaps the most enigmatic book in the Bible.  Some deists claim that it's the most deist book in the Bible, but I think it was written as an apologetic for revealed Judaism in answer to that very question religious leaders most often hear, Why?

Revealed religions, by that very act of revelation, are unable to consider the possibility that God must not interact; and it isn't that God can't, it's that God MUST not&#8212;again due to free will.  *Consider The Book of Life.  If there were such a book where our names are written from the foundation of the world, then we were all either damned or saved from the beginning. What, then, would be the point or meaning of our mortal lives--for God or ourselves?*  Why would God go to all that trouble to create the universe, and put us through all these trials and tribulations if our choices are preordained?  The Book of Life can only be a human forgery.

To make a very long story short, Job refuses the advice of friends and his wife to curse God, choosing instead to sue God, forcing God to make an appearance. His evidence is many oaths as to his (parabilistic) perfection as a human. God does make an appearance in a whirlwind, but instead of answering Job, God sarcastically asks:  &#8220;Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me], if you have understanding."....Job 38:1 & 4

IOW, the author is having God say, &#8220;who are you, any of you, to ask that question of ME?&#8221;  The author, as is anyone who&#8217;s advocating for the existence of an interactive, personal God, has no answer.  But there is an obvious answer&#8212;free will, so that the choices we make are truly our own, but that necessitates God&#8217;s non-intervention.  That's why.

This is clearly a human parable, which is further accentuated by the fact that not only is Job's wealth and status replaced, but he gets a new set of children, like so much chattel.  Although Job doesn't get the answer he was suing for, his being wronged is apparently righted.  It's tantamount to a divine admission of guilt. 

God?  Guilty???  What&#8217;s really going on here!


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## theword

PainefulTruth said:


> _"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."_ Job 1:1
> 
> "Perfect"?   No authorship is claimed or implied, including God or Job.  Its the first indication that Job is a parable.
> 
> But then the author has Job getting frustrated:  "If only someone would listen to me! Look, I will sign my name to my defense. Let the Almighty answer me. Let my accuser write out the charges against me." Job 31:35
> 
> But there are no charges, leaving Job with his frustration and his unanswered question, _Why?_
> 
> Job is perhaps the most enigmatic book in the Bible.  Some deists claim that it's the most deist book in the Bible, but I think it was written as an apologetic for revealed Judaism in answer to that very question religious leaders most often hear, Why?
> 
> Revealed religions, by that very act of revelation, are unable to consider the possibility that God must not interact; and it isn't that God can't, it's that God MUST notagain due to free will.  *Consider The Book of Life.  If there were such a book where our names are written from the foundation of the world, then we were all either damned or saved from the beginning. What, then, would be the point or meaning of our mortal lives--for God or ourselves?*  Why would God go to all that trouble to create the universe, and put us through all these trials and tribulations if our choices are preordained?  The Book of Life can only be a human forgery.
> 
> To make a very long story short, Job refuses the advice of friends and his wife to curse God, choosing instead to sue God, forcing God to make an appearance. His evidence is many oaths as to his (parabilistic) perfection as a human. God does make an appearance in a whirlwind, but instead of answering Job, God sarcastically asks:  Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me], if you have understanding."....Job 38:1 & 4
> 
> IOW, the author is having God say, who are you, any of you, to ask that question of ME?  The author, as is anyone whos advocating for the existence of an interactive, personal God, has no answer.  But there is an obvious answerfree will, so that the choices we make are truly our own, but that necessitates Gods non-intervention.  That's why.
> 
> This is clearly a human parable, which is further accentuated by the fact that not only is Job's wealth and status replaced, but he gets a new set of children, like so much chattel.  Although Job doesn't get the answer he was suing for, his being wronged is apparently righted.  It's tantamount to a divine admission of guilt.
> 
> God?  Guilty???  Whats really going on here!



God used Job to talk about Me ( the Creator of all things ) that only us saints can understand.


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## PainefulTruth

theword said:


> God used Job to talk about Me ( the Creator of all things ) that only us saints can understand.



So you don't know if you're God or a saint?


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## JoeB131

My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager. 

Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty. 

And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"


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## PainefulTruth

JoeB131 said:


> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"



While I agree, on the other hand I gotta wonder what you mean by Eisenhower Republican.  Theocracy?


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## LittleNipper

JoeB131 said:


> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"



No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.


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## theword

PainefulTruth said:


> theword said:
> 
> 
> 
> God used Job to talk about Me ( the Creator of all things ) that only us saints can understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you don't know if you're God or a saint?
Click to expand...


The name "saint" is just a name for our flesh that has died to the world desires so that God can use it for His purpose to testify to His plans for His creation. 

I was created as God's knowledge and why He calls us the invisible "Word of God", where all God's creation ( energy ) was spoken into existence. The flesh called prophets and saints were used to speak for our Creator from His created "Word".


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## JoeB131

PainefulTruth said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree, on the other hand I gotta wonder what you mean by Eisenhower Republican.  Theocracy?
Click to expand...


I mean the days when Republicans thought government wasn't the enemy, the rich should happily pay their fair share, and the GOP put the interest of working Americans ahead of that of multi-national corporations.


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## JoeB131

LittleNipper said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.
Click to expand...


I would suggest you go back to the first two chapters of the book.  God and Satan make a wager.  First Satan destroys all Job's stuff and kills his children, but he doesn't renounce God.  Then God and Satan ratchet it up a bit and give Job all sorts of diseases.  Which is pretty reprehensible.  

But it wouldn't have made as good a Story if God popped in at the end and said to Job and his "friends" that "Oh, yeah, it was like a bet I made with Satan. And it got out of hand. My bad!"


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## Peterf

LittleNipper said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.
Click to expand...



Why is the 'god' of your invention a vindictive sadist?  Could you not come up with an imaginary nice guy?

Anyway if he shows his face on Earth again he should be arrested and charged with multiple felonies.


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## PainefulTruth

LittleNipper said:


> No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.



The point is the question of WHY these things happen so haphazardly.  There is an answer:  because God doesn't interact.  To admit that though would be to undermine the possibility of any revealed God.  So, which makes sense?  There's only one reasonable possibility (well 2), God does not intervene, or God doesn't exist.



JoeB131 said:


> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"



So the author wrote the whole Book of Job to answer the universal "Why"s being asked, and after all that run around, can only attempt intimidation with that "what business is it of yours?"  He could have written that without te massive smokescreen.  The book would have been a paragraph long and had nothing to do with Job.



> I mean the days when Republicans thought government wasn't the enemy, the rich should happily pay their fair share, and the GOP put the interest of working Americans ahead of that of multi-national corporations.



McCarthy wasn't the enemy?  And I love that term "fair share".  What is "fair", who defines it?  I know, Democrats.  "Fair" is a completely subjective term defined by whoever uses it.  Big Government started in the 30s when it was decided to progressively ignore the Constitution.  But it really took off under Johnson's Great Society and War on Poverty.  When will people wake up, put the class warfare behind them and realize that Kennedy was right, "A rising tide lifts all boats".


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## Avatar4321

And yet God does interact with man as countless people can testify through their own personal experiences with the Lord.

And as many times as it's asserted, there is absolutely no contradiction between free will and God interacting with man.


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## PainefulTruth

Avatar4321 said:


> And as many times as it's asserted, there is absolutely no contradiction between free will and God interacting with man.



And as many times as it is denied, free will is not possible even if we know that God  exists, much less interacts.  Does it really make sense if there was a pillar of cloud/fire continuously with the Israelites in the desert, parting the sea and all the rest, that they would make a golden calf to worship with the pillar right there?

If God had never talked to you, how do you know the things you might have done?  How does God know (if you indeed have free will)?  And what if God tells you to do something evil, like sacrificing one of your children, would you?  Or might you consider then the possibility that maybe it's not really God, but your imagination, and you should tell It to take a hike--which I would do even if it was God in that situation.  Other people have done such evil, including Christian people, because "God told them to".  Maybe those things wouldn't have happened if they'd been taught that being moral comes from within us, not from a being in your head that may or may not be imaginary.

Moral free will means that no one can know the moral choices we will make until we make them.  If God exerts influence, the decision process is skewed.


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## LittleNipper

Peterf said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Why is the 'god' of your invention a vindictive sadist?  Could you not come up with an imaginary nice guy?
> 
> Anyway if he shows his face on Earth again he should be arrested and charged with multiple felonies.
Click to expand...


Satan is the vindictive sadist! He hates humanity. He hated Job. Satan did the deeds and God limited the scope of Satan's desire.


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## JoeB131

LittleNipper said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is the 'god' of your invention a vindictive sadist?  Could you not come up with an imaginary nice guy?
> 
> Anyway if he shows his face on Earth again he should be arrested and charged with multiple felonies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Satan is the vindictive sadist! He hates humanity. He hated Job. Satan did the deeds and God limited the scope of Satan's desire.
Click to expand...


The thing is, Satan only did a "job" on Job because God let him do it. 

And he went two rounds.  Killing Job's children and wiping out his livestock wasn't enough.  Satan had to do in for a second round of inflicting boils on him.


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## LittleNipper

PainefulTruth said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is the question of WHY these things happen so haphazardly.  There is an answer:  because God doesn't interact.  To admit that though would be to undermine the possibility of any revealed God.  So, which makes sense?  There's only one reasonable possibility (well 2), God does not intervene, or God doesn't exist.
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the author wrote the whole Book of Job to answer the universal "Why"s being asked, and after all that run around, can only attempt intimidation with that "what business is it of yours?"  He could have written that without te massive smokescreen.  The book would have been a paragraph long and had nothing to do with Job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean the days when Republicans thought government wasn't the enemy, the rich should happily pay their fair share, and the GOP put the interest of working Americans ahead of that of multi-national corporations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy wasn't the enemy?  And I love that term "fair share".  What is "fair", who defines it?  I know, Democrats.  "Fair" is a completely subjective term defined by whoever uses it.  Big Government started in the 30s when it was decided to progressively ignore the Constitution.  But it really took off under Johnson's Great Society and War on Poverty.  When will people wake up, put the class warfare behind them and realize that Kennedy was right, "A rising tide lifts all boats".
Click to expand...


Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan...  BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...

As for the rest, Government should not help big business. Government should not be in the education business. Government should not be in the gambling business. Government should only collect enough revenue to support the defense of the United States, and for any MODEST expense accrued while acting as a mediator between the various States.


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## JoeB131

LittleNipper said:


> [qu
> 
> Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan...  BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...



There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.  

The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.  

That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.  

God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.  

Second problem.  If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)


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## LittleNipper

JoeB131 said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> [qu
> 
> Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan...  BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.
> 
> The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.
> 
> That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.
> 
> God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.
> 
> Second problem.  If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)
Click to expand...

The problem is that my philosophy is not what many people wish to accept today. You are looking at things from purely a limited temporal view. God is looking at a much broader spiritual view from an eternal perspective. What the Nazis did was to play God and try to exterminate God's chosen people --- which if allowed would have nullified Biblical inerrancy. And this is exactly what Satan wants to do. Satan wants people to believe in evolution and billions of years, because such beliefs are a direct assult against Biblical truth. Until Satan is finally cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, Satan is doing his utmost to thwart God's ultimate plan, so that he will remain free and of relevance forever.


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## Book of Jeremiah

PainefulTruth said:


> _"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."_ Job 1:1
> 
> "Perfect"?   No authorship is claimed or implied, including God or Job.  It&#8217;s the first indication that Job is a parable.
> 
> But then the author has Job getting frustrated:  "If only someone would listen to me! Look, I will sign my name to my defense. Let the Almighty answer me. Let my accuser write out the charges against me." Job 31:35
> 
> But there are no charges, leaving Job with his frustration and his unanswered question, _Why?_
> 
> Job is perhaps the most enigmatic book in the Bible.  Some deists claim that it's the most deist book in the Bible, but I think it was written as an apologetic for revealed Judaism in answer to that very question religious leaders most often hear, Why?
> 
> Revealed religions, by that very act of revelation, are unable to consider the possibility that God must not interact; and it isn't that God can't, it's that God MUST not&#8212;again due to free will.  *Consider The Book of Life.  If there were such a book where our names are written from the foundation of the world, then we were all either damned or saved from the beginning. What, then, would be the point or meaning of our mortal lives--for God or ourselves?*  Why would God go to all that trouble to create the universe, and put us through all these trials and tribulations if our choices are preordained?  The Book of Life can only be a human forgery.
> 
> To make a very long story short, Job refuses the advice of friends and his wife to curse God, choosing instead to sue God, forcing God to make an appearance. His evidence is many oaths as to his (parabilistic) perfection as a human. God does make an appearance in a whirlwind, but instead of answering Job, God sarcastically asks:  &#8220;Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me], if you have understanding."....Job 38:1 & 4
> 
> IOW, the author is having God say, &#8220;who are you, any of you, to ask that question of ME?&#8221;  The author, as is anyone who&#8217;s advocating for the existence of an interactive, personal God, has no answer.  But there is an obvious answer&#8212;free will, so that the choices we make are truly our own, but that necessitates God&#8217;s non-intervention.  That's why.
> 
> This is clearly a human parable, which is further accentuated by the fact that not only is Job's wealth and status replaced, but he gets a new set of children, like so much chattel.  Although Job doesn't get the answer he was suing for, his being wronged is apparently righted.  It's tantamount to a divine admission of guilt.
> 
> God?  Guilty???  What&#8217;s really going on here!



You've misinterpreted Scripture, P.T..  That is what is going on here...  Let's go to the first thing you say here:   that the story of Job must be a human parable because the Scriptures say he was a "perfect man"...  

Do you not realize that the scriptures teach on the perfect man throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament?  Yes!  Let us examine a few of them now and then we will go back to Job, alright?  

It is written: 

Be ye perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.  
- Matthew 5: 48

Jesus said that, P.T.  What was Jesus speaking about?  In this particular scripture Jesus is speaking in reference to loving our neighbor and also loving our enemies.  Did you know we are to love our enemies? It is true. 

 There are times we bring correction to those who oppose the Gospel - it may even sound as a hard word at the time -no discipline is pleasant at the time, P.T. --->  but in all things the desired end result is that the person will come to the Father through Jesus Christ the Son and be saved. 

 For those who have gone off into the enemies camp we still love that one and must pray - even the one Paul turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh - seen in 1 Corinthinians 5: 1 -12 was for the saving of his soul in the day of Christ Jesus so in all things we must love our enemies and pray for our enemies.  Paul may be perceived as having been harsh with him but truly that man who was saved from hell is now very grateful to Paul for the end result. ( he is in heaven now ) 

So Love, Loving thy neighbor and thy enemy is part of perfection and although sanctification is a process the Apostle Paul was quite clear that there were those who had reached perfection but he told them to go on further! Don't stop at perfection - keep going!  

So let us realize that when Jesus said, Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect he wasn't making some flowery statement!  He meant what he said!  

So Loving our enemies, praying for our enemies is one sign we are working towards being perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.. what else is there? 

It is written: 

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into divers temptations.  Knowing this, that the trying of faith worketh patience.  But let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and entire wanting nothing.  - James 1: 3,4, 5

So now we have Love and Patience working us towards perfection, P.T. Oh and if you say that Job state of being perfect is impossible what shall we say then of Noah and of Abraham? Shall we deny their walk too?  Or Asa whose heart was perfect before the Lord?  ( 2 Chronicles 15:17) and many others too!  

It is written:

These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.  - Genesis 6: 9 


 Isn't this wonderful that God shows us the secret of Noah, of Abraham, of Job who were all counted as perfect men?  Even in the New Testament?   Yes!  It is exciting to know that we too can walk as Abraham walked!  We can walk before the Lord as Noah did and as Job did!  This life is attainable to us, P.T.!  Let us go further now....  

It is written: 

Mark the perfect man and behold the upright, for the end of that man is peace.  
-Psalm 37:37

Who said that?  King David, another man whose heart was perfect before the Lord!  Oh Glory to God, what a relationship King David enjoyed with the Lord!  Right?  NOTE*  How did King David accomplish this?  Through a Psalm 101 life.  He tells you exactly how to do it!  Do what Psalm 101 says - then you can believe God for a Psalm 17 experience!  What a blessing that will be for you!  I pray you have it once you embark on this journey with the Lord, P.T.!  I truly pray you attain that perfect heart as King David had!  

Let's go back to James now.  

It is written: 

For in many things we offend all.  If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.  - James 3: 2 

What is James teaching us?

  That if a man is able to have control over his tongue, not to offend in word, the same is a perfect man and that man will be able to control his body.  The tongue is a very small member of our body, P.T. but it is also the most dangerous part of our body and it has to be put under control of the Holy Ghost!  It has to be!  


Look at this, P.T.!  This is amazing!  

It is written: 

Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things.  Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth.  

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity, so it is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire of hell.  
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed and hath been tamed of mankind.

But the tongue can no man tame, it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith we curse men, which are made after the similitude of God.  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessings and cursing.  My brethren, these things ought not be.

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?  Can the fig tree, my brethren, bare olive berries?  either a vine, figs?  so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.  - James 3: 2 - 12

Now here is the good news, P.T..  When you come to Jesus Christ you can ask to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost and then He takes control He can do what you apart from God cannot do!  You see? Also the more you pray in the Holy Ghost the more the Holy Ghost takes control of the tongue.  Another secret to this state of perfection the Apostle Paul is speaking of...   So this is key in understanding that with God all things are possible, P.T.  If it were not so, Jesus would not have said, Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.   You see?  

So now we have three things that are needed to bring a man to this place of be ye perfect ......  Love - Love your neighbor - Love your enemies..  patience... let patience have its perfect work in you......  your tongue... submit yourself to God, resist Satan and he will flee from you...  let me say this also ----> this is what it means to present your members a living sacrifice - this is your "reasonable service" - you must present your members - you need to come under a Spirit controlled life - those that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God... let us go forward now.......

It is written, 

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you - 1 Peter 5:10

I believe the Lord wants me to encourage you, P.T. not to be afraid of suffering.  Avila once said that if we knew what suffering did for us we'd beg for more of it. I must agree with her and only the Father knows what she suffered at the hands of carnal people..  only the Father knows... the precious little saint she was...  

Okay so our list is right now at Love, Love your neighbor, Love your enemies, let Patience have its perfect work in you, put your tongue under submission to the Holy Spirit and suffering.......also a Spirit led life and praying in the Holy Ghost - Paul said he prayed in the Holy Ghost more then them all and Paul was a perfect man yet he told the others some had reached perfection but would not include himself out of humility.. I'll put those scriptures up too ( in next response as this is only addressing your first statement on Job must be a human parable )  but hold on.......

Suffering.  We have now added suffering to that list for the perfecting of the Believers.  Because Suffering is the one thing the Believers do not like to believe they are called for... yet we are..  you see, suffering is what produces the fruit - it is in the fire of suffering that you grow the fastest if you won't resist it.. when the heat is on?  You grow fast!  What is true in the natural is true in the spirit..consider a hot climate!  Tropical climate down in South America for instance...  the foliage is lush and thick - the plants grow fast!  Why?  The heat!  And at night?  At night the dew falls!  Oh yeah!  This is where the growth is going on!  Go up north to a cold wind and little sun and see how slow a plant grows!  Not so in the tropical heat of South America though!  Same for the spirit!  The book of Acts church went "viral" when the persecution was the heaviest!  Glory to God ! Oh yes!  It is just what the church needs and exactly where we are headed!  Suffering!  That is the word for the church right now!  

Great persecution is coming for the church... it is coming!  

Suffering.... this was the final test of Job and it proved he was indeed a perfect man because through it all he refused to "curse God and die" as his wife suggested to him..  he was restored back double for all his trouble except for his children which God gave him 7 more sons and 3 more daughters to replace the 10 he lost.. and after all of this Job lived 140 years and he saw his sons and his sons sons even four generations ( Job 42:16 ) and so we know that Job did not serve a "benefitless God" and neither do I!  Hallelujah!  Thank you, Lord!  I love you and you are so good to us! All the time!    - Karen


----------



## PainefulTruth

Jeremiah said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; *and that man was perfect* and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."_ Job 1:1
Click to expand...


Is Job perfect or not?


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

PainefulTruth said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; *and that man was perfect* and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."_ Job 1:1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
Click to expand...


Of course he was, P.T.!   God is not a man that He should lie nor the son of man that He should repent!  It is written!  

But just so that you know Job, Noah, Abraham and others were not alone in being marked a perfect man?  I have one more for you to wrap this first one up in evidence of the existance of the "perfect man"... P.T...  

It is written: 

I press toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Let us therefore, as many as be PERFECT, be thus minded, and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.  Nevertheless, where to WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.  - Philippians 3: 14, 15, 16

What is Paul saying here?  He is saying as many of you who are already "perfect" ----->walking perfect before the LORD, be like minded, and although you all have already "attained" this perfection do not stop there but keep on going!  Get it??  This is not it, there is far more! Far, far more glory to God!  I've got another one but I'll post this for you now as I don't want to keep you waiting!  - Karen


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Here is the other one the Holy Ghost wants you to have, P.T.  : 

It is written:

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.  - Ephesians 4:12

This is the defining of perfection according to God, P.T.  Do you understand?  Also real quick side note the Lord is reminding me to mention Job 37: 16 which is about being perfect in knowledge which is something that came with the promise in Hebrews 11: 13 when the Holy Spirit came because it is the anointing that teaches all things.. we know all things by the anointing ----> that is in 1 John 2: 20 But ye have the unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.. 

This is what those mentioned in Hebrews 11:13 were waiting for but did not receive in their own lifetime... Hebrews 11: 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but haveing seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 

 And again it is written in Hebrews 11: 39 and 40  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, recieved not the promise. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.  You see?  This is what came with the new Covenant which Jesus made possible through the Cross.. be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect is now possible!  How?  By the promise!  He has redeemed us, he has sent us the Holy Spirit..  Jesus said, It is finished.  Yes, P.T.  It is!!


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> [qu
> 
> Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan...  BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.
> 
> The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.
> 
> That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.
> 
> God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.
> 
> Second problem.  If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)
Click to expand...


No.  Adam gave Satan the authority and when Adam sinned, Satan got Federal Headship of the earth.  Satan is called the god of this earth and Jesus had to redeam the title deed of the earth (Revelation 5:4 to 5:5).

Revelation 5:4   And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.  

Revelation 5:5   And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> [qu
> 
> Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan...  BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.
> 
> The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.
> 
> That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.
> 
> God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.
> 
> Second problem.  If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)
Click to expand...


God is not absolved of His responsibility because He took responsibility for making man by dying on the cross for our sins.

God could have prevented sin by taking away free will and then you would have all been like little robots doing only what your programming said.  

You can't really compare the Nazis at Nuremburg to God.  It is apples and oranges.  Man was warned that if he ate of the tree that he would die spiritually.  If you ask what we deserve or don't deserve, we don't deserve heaven because Adam was the prototype and the copies like you and me couldn't do any better and we're all prone to evil so we're not deserving of anything even though God gives us mercy and kindness and a second chance.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

I believe we have established through scripture that God says many things about the perfect man, names those who were perfect ( Job was not the only man in the bible to marked as perfect ) and that Paul addressed those even before him who had attained perfection according to "God's standard of perfection" which is all we are looking for here..  God's definition.. not mans..  alright, P.T.?

Now let's move on to Jobs friends because it does appear you have left them out of the equation.  Jobs friends had misunderstood Job's affliction and why he was going through what he was going through!  

This book is very personal for me because I have suffered some pretty miserable things from those who meant well but missed the mark on what was happening to me at the time..  there was a time I was homeless, P.T. after I came to know Christ and some thought I must have sin in my life if I was suffering..  I must not be "tithing"!  Tithing off of what?!  I didn't even have a job at the time! 

 I was trying my best to find one but I had a son in kindergarten at the same time and without a place to live? That is a little hard to do! Nevertheless, I did learn to hang wallpaper with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then I got jobs!  Still, P.T., I didn't get rich, I wasn't driving a Bentley or flying around  in a helicopter and yet I loved God very much.. I came to the Lord when I was young, I gave my whole life to him when other girls my age were out dating and partying and having a good time! ( I'm not complaining - it was a blessing to know Jesus as a young woman ) 

  Yet I was shut in with God and suffering........... so what was happening to me?  Patience was having her perfect work!  ha! ha!  You want patience?  Become a wallpaper hanger, friend!  That will help get you there!  Still I didn't have patience with many things... I didn't like people... I told the Lord could you please keep people away from me?  I cannot stand them, Lord!  LOL!!!   Can you imagine?  I was called to be a Laborer and I am telling God I cannot stand people.  Oh my gosh.  He should have just squashed me like a bug.  Still I avoided people for many years - a total recluse other than my wallpaper jobs..  

  So when well meaning christians thought they would "help me out" they would say, well, if you were a member of a church, you know.........that would fix things!  Or if you would just drop that vow you made not to marry anyone - you'd have a husband to take care of you!  Yes, Jobs friends are alive and well even today, P.T. even today.....  where am I going with this? 

  Job was a human being.  If he came to his own defense, so what?!   God obviously gave him the measure of grace to do it, did he not?  If I told you some of the things I said during my own trials it would surely surprise you!  

 So God answers Job back, yes, but in the end what does God have Job do?

  He has Job pray for his friends!  Because they got it wrong!  God didn't get anything wrong!  Jobs friends got it wrong!  Get it?  

Note*  reading your latest replies I notice you still do not get it, P.T.   Perhaps you should try reading my responses and then answering? That would help I believe.  I provided all kinds of scripture and evidence as to Gods teachings on the "perfect man" and you have conveniently ignored them all.   Read up. Ignorance is not bliss. It is downright dangerous for the times we are headed into now!  You need the Lord!


----------



## JoeB131

LittleNipper said:


> [
> The problem is that my philosophy is not what many people wish to accept today. You are looking at things from purely a limited temporal view. God is looking at a much broader spiritual view from an eternal perspective. What the Nazis did was to play God and try to exterminate God's chosen people --- which if allowed would have nullified Biblical inerrancy. And this is exactly what Satan wants to do. Satan wants people to believe in evolution and billions of years, because such beliefs are a direct assult against Biblical truth. Until Satan is finally cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, Satan is doing his utmost to thwart God's ultimate plan, so that he will remain free and of relevance forever.



The fact the Nazis got as far as they did should be proof there is no God.  

Maybe we should toss religion into the Lake of Firestone... 







But again, we are getting back to Job.  Satan wasn't thwarting any plan in Job.  God gave Satan complete authority to do whatever sadistic thing he wanted to do to Job, just to prove to Satan Job wouldn't curse God.


----------



## JoeB131

PainefulTruth said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; *and that man was perfect* and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."_ Job 1:1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
Click to expand...


The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness". 

The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.  

This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself. 

Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to. 

This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.

BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.


----------



## LittleNipper

JoeB131 said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.
> 
> This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.
> 
> Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.
> 
> This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.
> 
> BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.
Click to expand...


Job, Lot, and Jephthah all believed that God would ultimately save them from their sin and take them to heaven.  It is not through the works of the flesh. These men came to realize that things men do and say often result in unforeseen problems/complications... They believed that God would make a way. That way is Christ Jesus.


----------



## PainefulTruth

JoeB131 said:


> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".



That's not the point.  I'm showing that the author of the Book of Job is trying to justify belief in an interactive God in view of God's apparent irrational administration of punishment and reward.  But then he fails miserably in that attempt because he has no explanation or answer for the "why"s, instead saying to just stfu.  

The real sham is that there _is_ an explanation for God's seeming irrationality (_if_ God exists), which is that God doesn't interact and is therefore not irrational.  But all the "revealed" religions have come to power selling influence with their God(s) to intervene on their behalf if they'll just join their cult and support it with money, sacrifices and blind faith.

I bring up Job's perfection because Jesus is supposed to be, for some believers, the savior of mankind, in part, because he is the only perfect man.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

PainefulTruth said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the point.  I'm showing that the author of the Book of Job is trying to justify belief in an interactive God in view of God's apparent irrational administration of punishment and reward.  But then he fails miserably in that attempt because he has no explanation or answer for the "why"s, instead saying to just stfu.
> 
> The real sham is that there _is_ an explanation for God's seeming irrationality (_if_ God exists), which is that God doesn't interact and is therefore not irrational.  But all the "revealed" religions have come to power selling influence with their God(s) to intervene on their behalf if they'll just join their cult and support it with money, sacrifices and blind faith.
> 
> I bring up Job's perfection because Jesus is supposed to be, for some believers, the savior of mankind, in part, because he is the only perfect man.
Click to expand...


I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong.  Jesus is not the only one called perfect.  God called Noah a perfect man, he called Job a perfect man, Paul clearly stated that some believers had already attained perfection and I have provided the written word of God whereas you have provided nothing more than an opinion, P.T.  The problem therein lies with you and not with the Word of God.  The problem lies within you.  This is the truth and you will have to come to terms with it because God is most certainly a personal God.  Abraham was a friend of God's - how much more personal do you need it to get?   I provide you with many, many scriptures - go into great detail to explain this to you and you pretend you have not been provided a shred of evidence.  This is a lie.  I tell you the truth.  There is no more sure way to remain in eternal ignorance than to condemn the facts without examining them.  To decide a matter before even listening to it - as Solomon said in proverbs, it is foolishness and will bring you shame.  You have achieved both in a single moment.  I am astonished that one who presented himself as seeking the truth of the matter would rejects it so boldly once it was put in front of him.  I understand now why you would not answer last night when I posted the answers for you.  You had no rebuttal and could not give an answer.  You still can't.  That is where we are at right now.   You don't have an answer to refute the Word of God!


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Jeremiah said:


> I believe we have established through scripture that God says many things about the perfect man, names those who were perfect ( Job was not the only man in the bible to marked as perfect ) and that Paul addressed those even before him who had attained perfection according to "God's standard of perfection" which is all we are looking for here..  God's definition.. not mans..  alright, P.T.?
> 
> Now let's move on to Jobs friends because it does appear you have left them out of the equation.  Jobs friends had misunderstood Job's affliction and why he was going through what he was going through!
> 
> This book is very personal for me because I have suffered some pretty miserable things from those who meant well but missed the mark on what was happening to me at the time..  there was a time I was homeless, P.T. after I came to know Christ and some thought I must have sin in my life if I was suffering..  I must not be "tithing"!  Tithing off of what?!  I didn't even have a job at the time!
> 
> I was trying my best to find one but I had a son in kindergarten at the same time and without a place to live? That is a little hard to do! Nevertheless, I did learn to hang wallpaper with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then I got jobs!  Still, P.T., I didn't get rich, I wasn't driving a Bentley or flying around  in a helicopter and yet I loved God very much.. I came to the Lord when I was young, I gave my whole life to him when other girls my age were out dating and partying and having a good time! ( I'm not complaining - it was a blessing to know Jesus as a young woman )
> 
> Yet I was shut in with God and suffering........... so what was happening to me?  Patience was having her perfect work!  ha! ha!  You want patience?  Become a wallpaper hanger, friend!  That will help get you there!  Still I didn't have patience with many things... I didn't like people... I told the Lord could you please keep people away from me?  I cannot stand them, Lord!  LOL!!!   Can you imagine?  I was called to be a Laborer and I am telling God I cannot stand people.  Oh my gosh.  He should have just squashed me like a bug.  Still I avoided people for many years - a total recluse other than my wallpaper jobs..
> 
> So when well meaning christians thought they would "help me out" they would say, well, if you were a member of a church, you know.........that would fix things!  Or if you would just drop that vow you made not to marry anyone - you'd have a husband to take care of you!  Yes, Jobs friends are alive and well even today, P.T. even today.....  where am I going with this?
> 
> Job was a human being.  If he came to his own defense, so what?!   God obviously gave him the measure of grace to do it, did he not?  If I told you some of the things I said during my own trials it would surely surprise you!
> 
> So God answers Job back, yes, but in the end what does God have Job do?
> 
> He has Job pray for his friends!  Because they got it wrong!  God didn't get anything wrong!  Jobs friends got it wrong!  Get it?
> 
> Note*  reading your latest replies I notice you still do not get it, P.T.   Perhaps you should try reading my responses and then answering? That would help I believe.  I provided all kinds of scripture and evidence as to Gods teachings on the "perfect man" and you have conveniently ignored them all.   Read up. Ignorance is not bliss. It is downright dangerous for the times we are headed into now!  You need the Lord!



Read this, P.T.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Jeremiah said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."_ Job 1:1
> 
> "Perfect"?   No authorship is claimed or implied, including God or Job.  Its the first indication that Job is a parable.
> 
> But then the author has Job getting frustrated:  "If only someone would listen to me! Look, I will sign my name to my defense. Let the Almighty answer me. Let my accuser write out the charges against me." Job 31:35
> 
> But there are no charges, leaving Job with his frustration and his unanswered question, _Why?_
> 
> Job is perhaps the most enigmatic book in the Bible.  Some deists claim that it's the most deist book in the Bible, but I think it was written as an apologetic for revealed Judaism in answer to that very question religious leaders most often hear, Why?
> 
> Revealed religions, by that very act of revelation, are unable to consider the possibility that God must not interact; and it isn't that God can't, it's that God MUST notagain due to free will.  *Consider The Book of Life.  If there were such a book where our names are written from the foundation of the world, then we were all either damned or saved from the beginning. What, then, would be the point or meaning of our mortal lives--for God or ourselves?*  Why would God go to all that trouble to create the universe, and put us through all these trials and tribulations if our choices are preordained?  The Book of Life can only be a human forgery.
> 
> To make a very long story short, Job refuses the advice of friends and his wife to curse God, choosing instead to sue God, forcing God to make an appearance. His evidence is many oaths as to his (parabilistic) perfection as a human. God does make an appearance in a whirlwind, but instead of answering Job, God sarcastically asks:  Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me], if you have understanding."....Job 38:1 & 4
> 
> IOW, the author is having God say, who are you, any of you, to ask that question of ME?  The author, as is anyone whos advocating for the existence of an interactive, personal God, has no answer.  But there is an obvious answerfree will, so that the choices we make are truly our own, but that necessitates Gods non-intervention.  That's why.
> 
> This is clearly a human parable, which is further accentuated by the fact that not only is Job's wealth and status replaced, but he gets a new set of children, like so much chattel.  Although Job doesn't get the answer he was suing for, his being wronged is apparently righted.  It's tantamount to a divine admission of guilt.
> 
> God?  Guilty???  Whats really going on here!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've misinterpreted Scripture, P.T..  That is what is going on here...  Let's go to the first thing you say here:   that the story of Job must be a human parable because the Scriptures say he was a "perfect man"...
> 
> Do you not realize that the scriptures teach on the perfect man throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament?  Yes!  Let us examine a few of them now and then we will go back to Job, alright?
> 
> It is written:
> 
> Be ye perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
> - Matthew 5: 48
> 
> Jesus said that, P.T.  What was Jesus speaking about?  In this particular scripture Jesus is speaking in reference to loving our neighbor and also loving our enemies.  Did you know we are to love our enemies? It is true.
> 
> There are times we bring correction to those who oppose the Gospel - it may even sound as a hard word at the time -no discipline is pleasant at the time, P.T. --->  but in all things the desired end result is that the person will come to the Father through Jesus Christ the Son and be saved.
> 
> For those who have gone off into the enemies camp we still love that one and must pray - even the one Paul turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh - seen in 1 Corinthinians 5: 1 -12 was for the saving of his soul in the day of Christ Jesus so in all things we must love our enemies and pray for our enemies.  Paul may be perceived as having been harsh with him but truly that man who was saved from hell is now very grateful to Paul for the end result. ( he is in heaven now )
> 
> So Love, Loving thy neighbor and thy enemy is part of perfection and although sanctification is a process the Apostle Paul was quite clear that there were those who had reached perfection but he told them to go on further! Don't stop at perfection - keep going!
> 
> So let us realize that when Jesus said, Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect he wasn't making some flowery statement!  He meant what he said!
> 
> So Loving our enemies, praying for our enemies is one sign we are working towards being perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.. what else is there?
> 
> It is written:
> 
> My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into divers temptations.  Knowing this, that the trying of faith worketh patience.  But let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and entire wanting nothing.  - James 1: 3,4, 5
> 
> So now we have Love and Patience working us towards perfection, P.T. Oh and if you say that Job state of being perfect is impossible what shall we say then of Noah and of Abraham? Shall we deny their walk too?  Or Asa whose heart was perfect before the Lord?  ( 2 Chronicles 15:17) and many others too!
> 
> It is written:
> 
> These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.  - Genesis 6: 9
> 
> 
> Isn't this wonderful that God shows us the secret of Noah, of Abraham, of Job who were all counted as perfect men?  Even in the New Testament?   Yes!  It is exciting to know that we too can walk as Abraham walked!  We can walk before the Lord as Noah did and as Job did!  This life is attainable to us, P.T.!  Let us go further now....
> 
> It is written:
> 
> Mark the perfect man and behold the upright, for the end of that man is peace.
> -Psalm 37:37
> 
> Who said that?  King David, another man whose heart was perfect before the Lord!  Oh Glory to God, what a relationship King David enjoyed with the Lord!  Right?  NOTE*  How did King David accomplish this?  Through a Psalm 101 life.  He tells you exactly how to do it!  Do what Psalm 101 says - then you can believe God for a Psalm 17 experience!  What a blessing that will be for you!  I pray you have it once you embark on this journey with the Lord, P.T.!  I truly pray you attain that perfect heart as King David had!
> 
> Let's go back to James now.
> 
> It is written:
> 
> For in many things we offend all.  If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.  - James 3: 2
> 
> What is James teaching us?
> 
> That if a man is able to have control over his tongue, not to offend in word, the same is a perfect man and that man will be able to control his body.  The tongue is a very small member of our body, P.T. but it is also the most dangerous part of our body and it has to be put under control of the Holy Ghost!  It has to be!
> 
> 
> Look at this, P.T.!  This is amazing!
> 
> It is written:
> 
> Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things.  Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth.
> 
> And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity, so it is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire of hell.
> For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed and hath been tamed of mankind.
> 
> But the tongue can no man tame, it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith we curse men, which are made after the similitude of God.  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessings and cursing.  My brethren, these things ought not be.
> 
> Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?  Can the fig tree, my brethren, bare olive berries?  either a vine, figs?  so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.  - James 3: 2 - 12
> 
> Now here is the good news, P.T..  When you come to Jesus Christ you can ask to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost and then He takes control He can do what you apart from God cannot do!  You see? Also the more you pray in the Holy Ghost the more the Holy Ghost takes control of the tongue.  Another secret to this state of perfection the Apostle Paul is speaking of...   So this is key in understanding that with God all things are possible, P.T.  If it were not so, Jesus would not have said, Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.   You see?
> 
> So now we have three things that are needed to bring a man to this place of be ye perfect ......  Love - Love your neighbor - Love your enemies..  patience... let patience have its perfect work in you......  your tongue... submit yourself to God, resist Satan and he will flee from you...  let me say this also ----> this is what it means to present your members a living sacrifice - this is your "reasonable service" - you must present your members - you need to come under a Spirit controlled life - those that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God... let us go forward now.......
> 
> It is written,
> 
> But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you - 1 Peter 5:10
> 
> I believe the Lord wants me to encourage you, P.T. not to be afraid of suffering.  Avila once said that if we knew what suffering did for us we'd beg for more of it. I must agree with her and only the Father knows what she suffered at the hands of carnal people..  only the Father knows... the precious little saint she was...
> 
> Okay so our list is right now at Love, Love your neighbor, Love your enemies, let Patience have its perfect work in you, put your tongue under submission to the Holy Spirit and suffering.......also a Spirit led life and praying in the Holy Ghost - Paul said he prayed in the Holy Ghost more then them all and Paul was a perfect man yet he told the others some had reached perfection but would not include himself out of humility.. I'll put those scriptures up too ( in next response as this is only addressing your first statement on Job must be a human parable )  but hold on.......
> 
> Suffering.  We have now added suffering to that list for the perfecting of the Believers.  Because Suffering is the one thing the Believers do not like to believe they are called for... yet we are..  you see, suffering is what produces the fruit - it is in the fire of suffering that you grow the fastest if you won't resist it.. when the heat is on?  You grow fast!  What is true in the natural is true in the spirit..consider a hot climate!  Tropical climate down in South America for instance...  the foliage is lush and thick - the plants grow fast!  Why?  The heat!  And at night?  At night the dew falls!  Oh yeah!  This is where the growth is going on!  Go up north to a cold wind and little sun and see how slow a plant grows!  Not so in the tropical heat of South America though!  Same for the spirit!  The book of Acts church went "viral" when the persecution was the heaviest!  Glory to God ! Oh yes!  It is just what the church needs and exactly where we are headed!  Suffering!  That is the word for the church right now!
> 
> Great persecution is coming for the church... it is coming!
> 
> Suffering.... this was the final test of Job and it proved he was indeed a perfect man because through it all he refused to "curse God and die" as his wife suggested to him..  he was restored back double for all his trouble except for his children which God gave him 7 more sons and 3 more daughters to replace the 10 he lost.. and after all of this Job lived 140 years and he saw his sons and his sons sons even four generations ( Job 42:16 ) and so we know that Job did not serve a "benefitless God" and neither do I!  Hallelujah!  Thank you, Lord!  I love you and you are so good to us! All the time!    - Karen
Click to expand...


Read these bible scriptures that confirm the existance of quite a few men whom God marked "perfect" and look it up in your own bible, P.T.  The Word of God is true, you have provided nothing but your own brand of atheism to resist this truth and it can lead you to no other destination than the one your namesake ( Thomas Paine ) ended in and we both know that is not the will of God for your life.   So read this and take the John 7:17 challenge - tell God you are willing to do his will once you see this doctrine of Christ is from Him and not a man... it is God all the way.. from cover to cover... ask Him and see for yourself.  Just be willing to do Gods will once you know it... you cannot ask for more from God than that.  Truly God is good.  All the time, P.T.!


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Jeremiah said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course he was, P.T.!   God is not a man that He should lie nor the son of man that He should repent!  It is written!
> 
> But just so that you know Job, Noah, Abraham and others were not alone in being marked a perfect man?  I have one more for you to wrap this first one up in evidence of the existance of the "perfect man"... P.T...
> 
> It is written:
> 
> I press toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Let us therefore, as many as be PERFECT, be thus minded, and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.  Nevertheless, where to WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.  - Philippians 3: 14, 15, 16
> 
> What is Paul saying here?  He is saying as many of you who are already "perfect" ----->walking perfect before the LORD, be like minded, and although you all have already "attained" this perfection do not stop there but keep on going!  Get it??  This is not it, there is far more! Far, far more glory to God!  I've got another one but I'll post this for you now as I don't want to keep you waiting!  - Karen
Click to expand...


And here is the other answer from Scripture you ignored, P.T.  Have a look!  This is from the Apostle Paul!


----------



## PainefulTruth

Jeremiah said:


> I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong.  Jesus is not the only one called perfect.



So perfect people don't need Jesus' salvation?  They wouldn't need to have faith in him?  I expect (know) there are many Christians who would greatly disagree with that.  It's just another example of a biblical contradiction.  I know that Jesus would greatly disagree with his being our salvation, it being very anti-Jewish.  He preached repentance, which Paul with his salvation through Jesus flesh and blood, discounted.  James certainly disagreed with Paul as well.


----------



## LittleNipper

Jeremiah said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the point.  I'm showing that the author of the Book of Job is trying to justify belief in an interactive God in view of God's apparent irrational administration of punishment and reward.  But then he fails miserably in that attempt because he has no explanation or answer for the "why"s, instead saying to just stfu.
> 
> The real sham is that there _is_ an explanation for God's seeming irrationality (_if_ God exists), which is that God doesn't interact and is therefore not irrational.  But all the "revealed" religions have come to power selling influence with their God(s) to intervene on their behalf if they'll just join their cult and support it with money, sacrifices and blind faith.
> 
> I bring up Job's perfection because Jesus is supposed to be, for some believers, the savior of mankind, in part, because he is the only perfect man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong.  Jesus is not the only one called perfect.  God called Noah a perfect man, he called Job a perfect man, Paul clearly stated that some believers had already attained perfection and I have provided the written word of God whereas you have provided nothing more than an opinion, P.T.  The problem therein lies with you and not with the Word of God.  The problem lies within you.  This is the truth and you will have to come to terms with it because God is most certainly a personal God.  Abraham was a friend of God's - how much more personal do you need it to get?   I provide you with many, many scriptures - go into great detail to explain this to you and you pretend you have not been provided a shred of evidence.  This is a lie.  I tell you the truth.  There is no more sure way to remain in eternal ignorance than to condemn the facts without examining them.  To decide a matter before even listening to it - as Solomon said in proverbs, it is foolishness and will bring you shame.  You have achieved both in a single moment.  I am astonished that one who presented himself as seeking the truth of the matter would rejects it so boldly once it was put in front of him.  I understand now why you would not answer last night when I posted the answers for you.  You had no rebuttal and could not give an answer.  You still can't.  That is where we are at right now.   You don't have an answer to refute the Word of God!
Click to expand...


Only God is good. And Jesus is the one who points that out. Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.


----------



## PainefulTruth

LittleNipper said:


> Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.



Huh?


----------



## LittleNipper

PainefulTruth said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
Click to expand...


Thought so! Even Jews need Jesus Christ the Messiah. Without him they too are lost.


----------



## JoeB131

Chuckt said:


> [
> 
> God is not absolved of His responsibility because He took responsibility for making man by dying on the cross for our sins.



problem with that.  Dying on the cross for an Omnipotent being who is going to ressurect himself (or part of himself, because I guess when part of him was being Mortal Jesus, the rest of him was still busy running the Universe) isn't that big of a sacrifice.  It isn't like he REALLY died forever and ever.  He was dead for three days. 



Chuckt said:


> [
> God could have prevented sin by taking away free will and then you would have all been like little robots doing only what your programming said.



I don't have a problem with "Free Will".  I have a problem with burning people for all eternity when they make the wrong choices.  Especially when it isn't all that clear what the "right" choices are.  Is there still some guy burning in Hell for eating meat during Lent?  



Chuckt said:


> [
> You can't really compare the Nazis at Nuremburg to God.  It is apples and oranges.  Man was warned that if he ate of the tree that he would die spiritually.  If you ask what we deserve or don't deserve, we don't deserve heaven because Adam was the prototype and the copies like you and me couldn't do any better and we're all prone to evil so we're not deserving of anything even though God gives us mercy and kindness and a second chance.



Honestly, you make God sound like he's a villian from a Batman Comic.  I'm going to give you these impossible choices, and then punish you horribly if you pick wrong... unless you kiss my ass every day with prayer.  

The Bible God is narcissitic, sadist, egomaniac, and could only be the product of human imagination.


----------



## PainefulTruth

LittleNipper said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believers are perfected in Christ Jesus and not without a Savior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thought so! Even Jews need Jesus Christ the Messiah. Without him they too are lost.
Click to expand...

s

Huhx100 ?


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> God is not absolved of His responsibility because He took responsibility for making man by dying on the cross for our sins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> problem with that.  Dying on the cross for an Omnipotent being who is going to ressurect himself (or part of himself, because I guess when part of him was being Mortal Jesus, the rest of him was still busy running the Universe) isn't that big of a sacrifice.  It isn't like he REALLY died forever and ever.  He was dead for three days.
Click to expand...


If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity.  You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.

Mark 10:38   But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 

Baptism represents death so what is the cup that Jesus was baptized with?

Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:  

God punished Jesus for every sin you commit.

You should do more research on this cup and the wrath of God that Jesus experienced because the punishment of just three days isn't what you think and there is more punishment to scourging and crucifixion than you know.  The crown of thorns had something like one inch thorns pressed into his head, his bones went out of joint when they dropped the cross into the hole to make it upright, you have to press up with your body to breathe when his feet were already nailed to a cross, and some crucifixions were close enough to the ground that wild animals came to eat the toes of people on the cross.  The shame of being naked on a cross without any anesthesia with your skin ripped off and your bowels exposed from the scourging.  Did you ever have a cut or a skin allergy?  Skin is the most sensitive thing on your body and it hurts.


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.
> 
> This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.
> 
> Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.
> 
> This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.
> 
> BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.
Click to expand...


I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.  

Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> I don't have a problem with "Free Will".  I have a problem with burning people for all eternity when they make the wrong choices.  Especially when it isn't all that clear what the "right" choices are.  Is there still some guy burning in Hell for eating meat during Lent?



Lent is a Catholic tradition that I could care less about.  If they wish to practice their religion that way, I respect that but I don't feel it is something I should concern myself about.

You stated you have a problem with people burning in eternity for making the wrong choices.

In my primitive understanding, I think it is risky for God to take back beings that didn't want to do things right the first time that they had a second, third, fourth, fifth chance at salvation.  I believe God knows what He is doing and there are reasons for what He is doing that aren't stated anywhere.

The question is, why don't you make the right choice then?  You use your own conscience to explain away God.  King David wrote the book of Psalms because he didn't have counselors and no one to counsel him.  If King David had counselors, do you think we would have the whole book of Psalms?

Hebrews 4:7   Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 

God speaks today through His word and I heard Him many times through His word.  You should challenge God if He exists to reveal Himself to you.


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.



The wager where God and Satan are betting a dollar only shows up in secular books on Job.  There is no such wager.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

JoeB131 said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.
> 
> This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.
> 
> Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.
> 
> This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.
> 
> BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.
Click to expand...


Joe,  the Word of God teaches us to know no man after the flesh.   What does this mean? It means if we look upon the flesh of a man we are going to come to a "wrong judgment" about him!

  For instance, in you I see a man that has a very keen sense of discernment, a man who also has a deep understanding of what it is to be merciful and compassionate, a man not afraid to speak truth as he sees it!  How rare you are, Joe! 

 Now I could not tell you that if it were not true, Joe.  Because the bible says all liars and those who love a lie will go to hell!  I do not want to go to hell, Joe, I know that place is real. I know it is.  Yet I have to tell you at the same time I am not seeing you after the flesh!  I just cannot do that!  Listen, even if Christians saw each other after the flesh they would find themselves all alone.. because everyone is at different places in their walk... 

 Now if I was seeing you after the flesh ( and believe me I have failed miserably before with people concerning this! ) I would be judging you for everything you say and everything you do and don't do ---> rather than what I am picking up in my spirit about you..  so that is all there is to say about that because truly I am not walking in perfection as those men did or Pauls brethen who had attained it had  - I am desiring to press on towards that mark but attained it?  Nope, not me..  

...  now some did, Joe. That is all there is to it and keep in mind that King David was said to be a man after Gods own heart!  If we were to judge King David for murdering Uriah the Hittite, for adultery with Bathsheba, for counting the men in the census, we would be judging amiss because God is looking upon the heart of David and with that we must once again realize God was not knowing David after the flesh but after by the Spirit.  Also - David repented quickly!  Did you ever notice that about David?  He did.  When he got it wrong? He repented quickly over it!  He wasted no time.  When they wanted they wanted to stone David he encouraged himself in the Lord- David was a man that trusted the Lord.  That is the truth.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

PainefulTruth said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have just given you scriptures from both Old Testament and New Testament that prove you are wrong.  Jesus is not the only one called perfect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So perfect people don't need Jesus' salvation?  They wouldn't need to have faith in him?  I expect (know) there are many Christians who would greatly disagree with that.  It's just another example of a biblical contradiction.  I know that Jesus would greatly disagree with his being our salvation, it being very anti-Jewish.  He preached repentance, which Paul with his salvation through Jesus flesh and blood, discounted.  James certainly disagreed with Paul as well.
Click to expand...


Of course they needed salvation, P.T.!   Don't you realize the difference in where they were before Jesus died on the cross and after?  Some slept .... and Abraham and other heroes of the faith were translated to heaven AFTER the cross.. not before.. before then Abraham was in a place where those in hell could see Lazarus in Abrahams bosom - afterwards - those in hell could not see Lazarus nor Abraham nor anyone else who had been separated by a great gulf ---> as they were taken from that place and on to heaven after the cross--------> as it was at the moment that redemption took place!  Yes!  THEN they were translated!   You see the difference?  From Abrahams bosom to heaven?  Yes...  there is a difference...

Jesus was very clear that he was the way to heaven in that he said, If any man deny me before men, I will deny them before my Father in heaven. 

 Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, P.T. , no man comes to the father except through him.

  You are mistaken about the religious leaders and Jesus, P.T.  Many knew that Jesus was the Messiah.  The Scriptures declare this! 

It is written: 

Nevertheless, among the chief rulers also many believed on him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, let they should be put out of the synagogue.  For they loved the praises of men more than the praises of God.  

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth no on me, but on him that sent me.  And he said he that seeth me has seen him that sent me.  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.  And if any man hear my words, and believeth not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

He that rejected me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.  <-----------this is important! 

For I have not spoken of myself, but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting, whatsoever I speak therefore even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.  - John 12: 42 - 50 

The Apostle Paul in no way discounted Jesus Christ, P.T.  You are leaning upon your own wisdom and understanding here and becoming confused.   Look at the scriptures, beloved! the Gospel is not earthly wisdom!    

It is written:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.  For it is written, I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND WILL BRING TO NOTHING THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE PRUDENT. 

Where is the wise?  Where is the Scribe?  Where is the disputer of this world?  Hath not God made the foolish the wisdom of this world?  

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom, But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 
- 1 Corinthians 1: 18 - 24


And again it is written:

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.  - 1 Corinthians 1: 4, 5 

I am quoting Paul in both of these scriptures, P. T. 

Now let us go on to James............

It is written: 

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?  But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?  Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by which ye are called?  

If ye fulfill the royal law according to scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, ye do well.

But if you have respect for persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law of transgressors, For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, is guilty of all.  For he said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL.  Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.  

So speak ye, and do so, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.  For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy, and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.  - James 2: 5 - 13


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Chuckt said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.
> 
> This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.
> 
> Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.
> 
> This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.
> 
> BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.
> 
> Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.
Click to expand...


Looking to the word of God we find the answer concerning what God counts as righteousness...

It is written:  

You believe that there is one God.  Good!  Even the demons in hell believe that- and shudder!

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?  Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Issac on the altar?  You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.  And the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness., and he was called God's friend. 

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.  In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?  As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. - James 2:19 - 26 

Back to the "perfect man" one more time!  

It is written: 

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.  We all stumble in many ways.  If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. 

 - James 3:1, 2 

Did any attain that mark in the New Testament?  Yes..  The Apostle Paul made clear they did.. yet?  Paul in so many words said about this, don't stop there!  Keep going! Keep going! There is more!  Far, far more! 

For some here who have not yet started the journey I would say, why not take the John 7:17 challenge? 
______________________________
It is written in John: 7: 7 - 20 

If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.  He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth.  There is nothing false about him.  Has not Moses given you the Law?  Yet not one of you keeps the Law.  Why are you trying to kill me?  - Jesus


----------



## Sunshine

JoeB131 said:


> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree, on the other hand I gotta wonder what you mean by Eisenhower Republican.  Theocracy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I mean the days when Republicans thought government wasn't the enemy, the rich should happily pay their fair share, and the GOP put the interest of working Americans ahead of that of multi-national corporations.
Click to expand...



Seriously, Joe, you need a life.  There were no Republicans nor Democrats in the Bible.  Only 'publicans and sinners' in Jesus' day.  All the books are an allegory to something.  I think the fact that Job ignores his negative friends is a lesson to us all to avoid negative people, and trust God.  Sadly, there are so many people these days avoiding them is almost impossible to do.


----------



## Sunshine

JoeB131 said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with the Book of Job is that at the end of the day, Job's life was turned into a living hell because God and Satan made a wager.
> 
> Most sensible people would be upset if someone had ruined every aspect of his life over something so petty.
> 
> And at the end of the day, when God finally appears to Job and his sadistic friends, it boils down to, "Don't you dare question me, I'm God! Now get to sacrificing me some livestock!!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Job's friends were blaming Job. It was only the young friend who seems to have gotten it right. The fact is that this happened to Job so that today believers are aware that good things can and do happen to righteous people. It isn't always a matter of one's personal sin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would suggest you go back to the first two chapters of the book.  God and Satan make a wager.  First Satan destroys all Job's stuff and kills his children, but he doesn't renounce God.  Then God and Satan ratchet it up a bit and give Job all sorts of diseases.  Which is pretty reprehensible.
> 
> But it wouldn't have made as good a Story if God popped in at the end and said to Job and his "friends" that "Oh, yeah, it was like a bet I made with Satan. And it got out of hand. My bad!"
Click to expand...


Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are forces in the universe bigger and more powerful than you?  That you have no say over most aspects of your life in spite of 'the power of positive thinking.'  How do you know that you, yourself, are not a sick joke that God played on the rest of us?


----------



## Sunshine

JoeB131 said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> [qu
> 
> Satan (originally called Lucifer) is the cherub who was placed in charge of the Earth. When Lucifer fell he lost his power over the Earth UNTIL he caused Adam & Eve to revolt against God. Now, Lucifer is in charge of what happens matterially speaking to the degree that it doesn't effect God's eternal plan...  BUT Satan's days are numbered. Satan is a liar and the master of chaos. So, PLEASE---do not accuse God of something He only allowed but didn't invent...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a whole lot of problems with this philosophy.
> 
> The first is that God is absolved from what Satan does after he gave Satan the authority.
> 
> That didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremburg, that doesn't work for most workplaces when the low level guy screws up.
> 
> God allowed something horrible to happen he could have prevented.
> 
> Second problem.  If Satan/Lucifer/Old Nick lost his power after the whole "Garden of Eden" Fiasco. (That's where God left the tree right where they could get at it, those kooky kids!) then why does he still have God's authority to torment Job, when Job lives AFTER Adam and Eve. (Supposedly being a good person from around Noah's time, I would guess.)
Click to expand...


There were no Nazis in the Bible.  

The Forces that rule the Universe are autonomous.  They do not need your approval.  Remind yourself of that the next time baseball size hail falls on your roof after you forgot to pay up the homeowner's policy.


----------



## JoeB131

Chuckt said:


> [
> If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity.  You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.



For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed.  I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion.  




Chuckt said:


> [
> God punished Jesus for every sin you commit.
> 
> You should do more research on this cup and the wrath of God that Jesus experienced because the punishment of just three days isn't what you think and there is more punishment to scourging and crucifixion than you know.  The crown of thorns had something like one inch thorns pressed into his head, his bones went out of joint when they dropped the cross into the hole to make it upright, you have to press up with your body to breathe when his feet were already nailed to a cross, and some crucifixions were close enough to the ground that wild animals came to eat the toes of people on the cross.  The shame of being naked on a cross without any anesthesia with your skin ripped off and your bowels exposed from the scourging.  Did you ever have a cut or a skin allergy?  Skin is the most sensitive thing on your body and it hurts.



Yes, Crucifixtion is a horrible way to die, and poor Spartacus died a terrible death...  







But frankly, concentrating on how Jesus died is what they did in the Dark Ages, and it had really bad results.


----------



## JoeB131

Sunshine said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> *While I agree, on the other hand I gotta wonder what you mean by Eisenhower Republican.  Theocracy?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I mean the days when Republicans thought government wasn't the enemy, the rich should happily pay their fair share, and the GOP put the interest of working Americans ahead of that of multi-national corporations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, Joe, you need a life.  There were no Republicans nor Democrats in the Bible.  Only 'publicans and sinners' in Jesus' day.  All the books are an allegory to something.  I think the fact that Job ignores his negative friends is a lesson to us all to avoid negative people, and trust God.  Sadly, there are so many people these days avoiding them is almost impossible to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do try to pay attention.  SOmeone specifically asked me what I meant by "Eisenhower Republican" and I explained.
> 
> The Book of Job is an allegory for Iron Age people who no longer accepted a capricious God (i.e. forces of nature), and wanted a better explanation why God lets bad things happen to good people. My opinion is that it fails, miserably.
Click to expand...


----------



## JoeB131

Sunshine said:


> [
> 
> Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are forces in the universe bigger and more powerful than you?  That you have no say over most aspects of your life in spite of 'the power of positive thinking.'  How do you know that you, yourself, are not a sick joke that God played on the rest of us?



I think I would need something called "EVIDENCE" before I would accept that there are sky pixies who are sending me he to torment you by pointing out that you are borderline retarded.  

you should consider it a gift.  Most of your friends won't tell you how stupid you are.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Joe?  You are what I like to refer to as a "big fish"...   supremely difficult to catch but worth the wait!


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

p.s. I know that you know how intelligent Sunshine is, Joe. VERY.


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity.  You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed.  I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion.  QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Execution[edit]Scholars have identified passages that mention Jesus in the context of his execution:
> 
> Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b -"on the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus the Nazarene" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Karlsruhe 2)
> Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b  "Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Firenze II.1.89, Karlsruhe 2)
> Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b  "Do you suppose Jesus the Nazarene was one for whom a defense could be made?" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Firenze II.1.89, Karlsruhe 2 )
> Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b  "With Jesus the Nazarene it was different" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Firenze II.1.89, Karlsruhe 2)
> The complete passage is: "On (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover Jesus the Nazarene was hanged and a herald went forth before him forty days heralding, 'Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and instigated and seduced Israel to idolatry. Whoever knows anything in defense may come and state it.' But since they did not find anything in his defense they hanged him on (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Do you suppose that Jesus the Nazarene was one for whom a defense could be made? He was a mesit (someone who instigated Israel to idolatry), concerning whom the Merciful [God]says: Show him no compassion and do not shield him (Deut. 13:9). With Jesus the Nazarene it was different. For he was close to the government."[64][90]
> 
> In the Florence manuscript of the Talmud (1177 CE) an addition is made to Sanhedrin 43a saying that Yeshu was hanged on the eve of the Sabbath.[91]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


----------



## JoeB131

Jeremiah said:


> p.s. I know that you know how intelligent Sunshine is, Joe. VERY.



actually, I don't know that.  All the encounters I've had with her in the last few years have involved lots of name-calling and very few thoughtful ideas.  I really can't point to something truly insightful she has ever said.  

And that isn't a partisan thing. There are a lot of conservatives and Christians here who make their points very well.


----------



## JoeB131

Chuckt said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PainefulTruth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is Job perfect or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.
> 
> This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.
> 
> Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.
> 
> This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.
> 
> BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.
> 
> Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.
Click to expand...


No, Lot was NOT righteous.  

Lot offered up both of his virgin daugthers to an angry mob and told them to "do with them as you see fit" after they had threatened to rape the two angels who had visited him. 

And after his wife got turned into a condiment, he proceeded to have drunken sex with his daughters.  I have to honestly ask, how drunk do you have to get to have drunken sex with your daughter.  TWICE!!!


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

JoeB131 said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity.  You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed.  I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> God punished Jesus for every sin you commit.
> 
> You should do more research on this cup and the wrath of God that Jesus experienced because the punishment of just three days isn't what you think and there is more punishment to scourging and crucifixion than you know.  The crown of thorns had something like one inch thorns pressed into his head, his bones went out of joint when they dropped the cross into the hole to make it upright, you have to press up with your body to breathe when his feet were already nailed to a cross, and some crucifixions were close enough to the ground that wild animals came to eat the toes of people on the cross.  The shame of being naked on a cross without any anesthesia with your skin ripped off and your bowels exposed from the scourging.  Did you ever have a cut or a skin allergy?  Skin is the most sensitive thing on your body and it hurts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, Crucifixtion is a horrible way to die, and poor Spartacus died a terrible death...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But frankly, concentrating on how Jesus died is what they did in the Dark Ages, and it had really bad results.
Click to expand...


Joe, first you say, frankly I don't believe Jesus ever existed, then you say but frankly concentrating on how Jesus died.....   How can you concentrate on how Jesus died if he never existed?   You know what is happening to you?  You are hearing the Word of God and you are beginning to believe.....keep reading, Joe.  Something good is happening here.....faith cometh by hearing!


----------



## Chuckt

JoeB131 said:


> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, I don't use the Bible as an endorsement of Bible Character's "righteousness".
> 
> The Bible- even the New Testament- praises Lot as a righteous man.
> 
> This would be the same Lot who offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape to an angry mob, and then had drunken sex with them himself.
> 
> Similarly, Jephthah is praised in teh New Testament as someone modern people were Unworthy compared to.
> 
> This would be the same Jephthah who butchered and burned his daughter because he uttered a foolish oath to God.
> 
> BY comparison, all poor Job does is put up with the abuse that God inflicts on him, and qeustions why he is made to suffer, and God shows up and berates him for not being God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you should criticize a man in desperation.
> 
> Lot is righteous because he borrowed God's righteousness by believing in God and not from his own actions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, Lot was NOT righteous.
> 
> Lot offered up both of his virgin daugthers to an angry mob and told them to "do with them as you see fit" after they had threatened to rape the two angels who had visited him.
> 
> And after his wife got turned into a condiment, he proceeded to have drunken sex with his daughters.  I have to honestly ask, how drunk do you have to get to have drunken sex with your daughter.  TWICE!!!
Click to expand...


Somehow I think Lot knew they didn't want his daughters.

Genesis 19:33   And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.  

He was obviously out of it and didn't know as the text says.


----------



## JoeB131

Chuckt said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chuckt said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> If it is no big deal that Jesus took your punishment and had God's wrath poured out on Jesus then you can experience the same wrath for eternity.  You don't know what Jesus experienced spiritually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the record. I don't think Jesus ever existed.  I think he is a literary device made up by Saul of Tarses to sell his fancy new religion.  QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Execution[edit]Scholars have identified passages that mention Jesus in the context of his execution:
> 
> Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b ]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Talmud was written in the sixth century, when Christianity was already established as a state religion.
> 
> Therefore, it is not an eyewitness account.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## JoeB131

Jeremiah said:


> [
> 
> Joe, first you say, frankly I don't believe Jesus ever existed, then you say but frankly concentrating on how Jesus died.....   How can you concentrate on how Jesus died if he never existed?   You know what is happening to you?  You are hearing the Word of God and you are beginning to believe.....keep reading, Joe.  Something good is happening here.....faith cometh by hearing!



Sorry, heard it all before and am still not impressed.  

But here's the thing. The PHILOSOPHY attributed to Jesus isn't necessarily a bad one. treat people the way you'd want to be treated. Help the poor and downtrodden, do onto others, do not judge lest you be judged.  That's all pretty good stuff.  It would be pretty good stuff without all the magic sky pixie stories.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

JoeB131 said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> p.s. I know that you know how intelligent Sunshine is, Joe. VERY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually, I don't know that.  All the encounters I've had with her in the last few years have involved lots of name-calling and very few thoughtful ideas.  I really can't point to something truly insightful she has ever said.
> 
> And that isn't a partisan thing. There are a lot of conservatives and Christians here who make their points very well.
Click to expand...


I think the day you accept Christ as your Savior, Joe, that Satan is going to ask God for a reprieve..  and say this is the guy I want to test!   Why?  Because he knows the gates of hell won't be able to prevail against you and he is going to want a jump start!


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Joe, one thing I want to know.  How did you figure out that Job was living around the time of Noah?  I believe you are right.  How did you know that?  You really have me wondering about that one.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

JoeB131 said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> Joe, first you say, frankly I don't believe Jesus ever existed, then you say but frankly concentrating on how Jesus died.....   How can you concentrate on how Jesus died if he never existed?   You know what is happening to you?  You are hearing the Word of God and you are beginning to believe.....keep reading, Joe.  Something good is happening here.....faith cometh by hearing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, heard it all before and am still not impressed.
> 
> But here's the thing. The PHILOSOPHY attributed to Jesus isn't necessarily a bad one. treat people the way you'd want to be treated. Help the poor and downtrodden, do onto others, do not judge lest you be judged.  That's all pretty good stuff.  It would be pretty good stuff without all the magic sky pixie stories.
Click to expand...


You know what? That is cool with me that you are not impressed because I didn't expect you would be.  But you see, this is precisely why I know you are going to present a big problem for Satan.  Because you are not the kind of guy that falls on his knees easily.   Christians who convert on a whim fall away just as fast.  Christians like Paul? Who could not be convinced until he had a head on encounter with Christ?   They don't lay down.  For anyone.  Neither will you.  When that time comes.   See you later, God willing.  Good night, Joe.  - Karen


----------



## JoeB131

Jeremiah said:


> Joe, one thing I want to know.  How did you figure out that Job was living around the time of Noah?  I believe you are right.  How did you know that?  You really have me wondering about that one.



I think that's biblical tradition, or at least that is the way that it was taught in Bible Study when I was in Catholic H.S.

I put the caveat that there are a lot of anachronisms in it, such as mention of the "Chaldeans" being one of the tribes who stole Job's livestock, or mention of Hades, which was not a concept that the early Hebrews had.  That puts its authorship in the Second Temple Period.


----------



## PainefulTruth

Jeremiah said:


> It is written:
> 
> Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?  But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?  Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by which ye are called?



What's poverty got to do with it except that wealth makes it easier to sin.  BTW, as for Jesus, James and the other Jerusalem followers of Jesus, I only claim that they are less wrong than Paul.  Their hearts were in the right place, but The Law is way to complex.  Paul on the other hand was outright evil. 

My favorite passage from the Book of James is one aimed (as is the whole book) directly at Paul:  "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

I think there is some significance to the fact that the word "tremble" is used often in the OT, but only this once in the New.  Also, I don't believe devils makes sense, the only devils are those of us who *d*o*evil*.


----------



## LittleNipper

JoeB131 said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, Joe, you need a life.  There were no Republicans nor Democrats in the Bible.  Only 'publicans and sinners' in Jesus' day.  All the books are an allegory to something.  I think the fact that Job ignores his negative friends is a lesson to us all to avoid negative people, and trust God.  Sadly, there are so many people these days avoiding them is almost impossible to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do try to pay attention.  SOmeone specifically asked me what I meant by "Eisenhower Republican" and I explained.
> 
> The Book of Job is an allegory for Iron Age people who no longer accepted a capricious God (i.e. forces of nature), and wanted a better explanation why God lets bad things happen to good people. My opinion is that it fails, miserably.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bad things happen to everyone during this life. It's the result of sin in the world due to the Fall. Those that are saved will not have to endure an eternity of bad things. The book of Job is not an allegory.
Click to expand...


----------



## LittleNipper

JoeB131 said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, Joe, you need a life.  There were no Republicans nor Democrats in the Bible.  Only 'publicans and sinners' in Jesus' day.  All the books are an allegory to something.  I think the fact that Job ignores his negative friends is a lesson to us all to avoid negative people, and trust God.  Sadly, there are so many people these days avoiding them is almost impossible to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do try to pay attention.  SOmeone specifically asked me what I meant by "Eisenhower Republican" and I explained.
> 
> The Book of Job is an allegory for Iron Age people who no longer accepted a capricious God (i.e. forces of nature), and wanted a better explanation why God lets bad things happen to good people. My opinion is that it fails, miserably.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bad things happen to everyone during this life. It's the result of sin in the world due to the Fall. Those that are saved will not have to endure an eternity of bad things. The book of Job is not an allegory.
Click to expand...


----------



## JoeB131

LittleNipper said:


> [
> 
> Bad things happen to everyone during this life. It's the result of sin in the world due to the Fall. Those that are saved will not have to endure an eternity of bad things. The book of Job is not an allegory.



Bad things happen to everyone during their life because of random, doodaa luck.  

Has nothing to do with a magic sky pixie or some people who ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.  

(Yes, seriously. Talking Snakes. That never gets old.) 

Now, the Bronze Age people who invented Yahweh (and not the other way around), this wasn't a consideration.  God was the go-to explanation for every capricious force of nature.  Plague? God.  Famine? God.  Pestilence? God.  Earthquake? God.  

But by the time folks get to the Iron Age and they start asking philosophical questions like "If God is Good, why do Good people suffer? More importantly, why do Bad People Prosper". 

Thus, they all needed to invent a few more things.  Like a Hell for people you don't like to go to and suffer.  And a Devil to rule it.  Because clearly that guy who banged your wife before you had her stoned needs to burn in hell forever and ever for it.


----------



## LittleNipper

JoeB131 said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> Bad things happen to everyone during this life. It's the result of sin in the world due to the Fall. Those that are saved will not have to endure an eternity of bad things. The book of Job is not an allegory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bad things happen to everyone during their life because of random, doodaa luck.
> 
> Has nothing to do with a magic sky pixie or some people who ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.
> 
> (Yes, seriously. Talking Snakes. That never gets old.)
> 
> Now, the Bronze Age people who invented Yahweh (and not the other way around), this wasn't a consideration.  God was the go-to explanation for every capricious force of nature.  Plague? God.  Famine? God.  Pestilence? God.  Earthquake? God.
> 
> But by the time folks get to the Iron Age and they start asking philosophical questions like "If God is Good, why do Good people suffer? More importantly, why do Bad People Prosper".
> 
> Thus, they all needed to invent a few more things.  Like a Hell for people you don't like to go to and suffer.  And a Devil to rule it.  Because clearly that guy who banged your wife before you had her stoned needs to burn in hell forever and ever for it.
Click to expand...


There is no such thing as luck. You cannot even imagine that the serpent communicated telepathically? And why exactly not? The Bronze age farmer/shepherds were really the clever to invent a single omnipotent GOD (who also happens to be triune in nature and created EVERYTHING), when all the "smart" learned city folk all accepted a family of gods (that looked and acted only just like super men) or worshipped trees, the sky, the moon... Doesn't that seem just a bit strange? And then there is all this evidence for a Flood or at least some sort of horrific event that seems to have changed everything surrounding the environment of planet earth. And then to top it off, we have Jesus Christ. The evidence all points to him being a real person. And the simple fact is that Jesus should have disappeared into obscurity given your viewpoint. I mean he lived in a silly little country, with a lot of oddballs. It wasn't Rome or Athens or Egypt. And He died at the age of about 31. He owned no land. He had no money. He had 12 key followers (none of which were powerful). Think on that.


----------



## LittleNipper

JoeB131 said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> Bad things happen to everyone during this life. It's the result of sin in the world due to the Fall. Those that are saved will not have to endure an eternity of bad things. The book of Job is not an allegory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bad things happen to everyone during their life because of random, doodaa luck.
> 
> Has nothing to do with a magic sky pixie or some people who ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.
> 
> (Yes, seriously. Talking Snakes. That never gets old.)
> 
> Now, the Bronze Age people who invented Yahweh (and not the other way around), this wasn't a consideration.  God was the go-to explanation for every capricious force of nature.  Plague? God.  Famine? God.  Pestilence? God.  Earthquake? God.
> 
> But by the time folks get to the Iron Age and they start asking philosophical questions like "If God is Good, why do Good people suffer? More importantly, why do Bad People Prosper".
> 
> Thus, they all needed to invent a few more things.  Like a Hell for people you don't like to go to and suffer.  And a Devil to rule it.  Because clearly that guy who banged your wife before you had her stoned needs to burn in hell forever and ever for it.
Click to expand...


There is no such thing as luck. You cannot even imagine that the serpent communicated telepathically? And why exactly not? The Bronze age farmer/shepherds were really the clever to invent a single omnipotent GOD (who also happens to be triune in nature and created EVERYTHING), when all the "smart" learned city folk all accepted a family of gods (that looked and acted only just like super humans) or worshipped trees, the sky, the moon... Doesn't that seem just a bit strange? And then there is all this evidence for a Flood or at least some sort of horrific event that seems to have changed everything surrounding the environment of planet earth. And then to top it off, we have Jesus Christ. The evidence all points to him being a real person. And the simple fact is that Jesus should have disappeared into obscurity given your viewpoint. I mean he lived in a silly little country, with a lot of oddballs. It wasn't Rome or Athens or Egypt. And He died at the age of about 31. He owned no land. He had no money. He had 12 key followers (none of which were powerful). Think on that. None of this points that there is something special going on out of the norm?


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## JoeB131

LittleNipper said:


> [
> 
> There is no such thing as luck.



Sure there is.  And frankly, I'm glad their is.  I would really hate to think there's a world where all the things that happen to us are because we deserve it.  I rejoice in the capricious nature of the universe.  




> You cannot even imagine that the serpent communicated telepathically? And why exactly not?



Well, because snakes have really, really small brains and aren't capable of telepathy.  



> The Bronze age farmer/shepherds were really the clever to invent a single omnipotent GOD (who also happens to be triune in nature and created EVERYTHING), when all the "smart" learned city folk all accepted a family of gods (that looked and acted only just like super humans) or worshipped trees, the sky, the moon... Doesn't that seem just a bit strange?




Well, first, it isn't really clear that the ancient Hebrews WERE monothestic.  Early versions seem to indicate Yahweh was a major God, but not the only God they worshipped.  This is what they call "retconning".  




> And then there is all this evidence for a Flood or at least some sort of horrific event that seems to have changed everything surrounding the environment of planet earth.



Uh, no, there's no evidence for a world wide flood. There's some evidence for large local floods. 



> And then to top it off, we have Jesus Christ. The evidence all points to him being a real person. And the simple fact is that Jesus should have disappeared into obscurity given your viewpoint.



Actually, quite the contrary, all of the accounts of Jesus were written by people who never met him personally, and decades after the fact. 

For instance, the person who wrote the Gospel of Mark never set foot in the Holy Land.  He gets too many things wrong in geography and customs. (Like thinking Judean women could get divorces, like their Roman counterparts. )  Mattew and Luke are built off of Mark, repeating 90% of it, but they contradict each other on the facts that they add.  (Such as when Jesus was born, where, and why someone form Galalie would be in Bethelhem.) 

[/quote] I mean he lived in a silly little country, with a lot of oddballs. It wasn't Rome or Athens or Egypt. And He died at the age of about 31. He owned no land. He had no money. He had 12 key followers (none of which were powerful). Think on that. None of this points that there is something special going on out of the norm?[/QUOTE]

Actually, there were a lot of sects that called themselves "Christian".  Christian was used in the Second century to not only describe followers of Jesus, but also followers of Sarapis.  It was only after Constantine decided to make the JEsus cult the state religion of Rome that we finally got some "conformity" to the story.  And more Ret-conning.


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