# Gee looky here, Arctic ice 200 years ago was the same as today!



## westwall (Feb 13, 2011)

Yes, it's amazing what you find when you actually read the records of the people who actually travelled there.






http://seagrant.uaf.edu/nosb/2005/resources/arctic-explorers.pdf


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## The Infidel (Feb 13, 2011)




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## IanC (Feb 14, 2011)

how can you be so cruel to say its not the end of the world?


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## konradv (Feb 14, 2011)

But was CO2?  Natural cycles won't necessarily repeat themselves, if underlying conditions have changed.  You can't expect uniformity in that case.  It's like saying a meal will taste exactly the same, even though you've changed the spice mixture.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 14, 2011)

*Well, well.  Totally amazing. All these voyages of exploration had winter overs, but two big freightors navigated the NorthEast Passage in 2009*
Global warming opens new Arctic shipping lane - CSMonitor.com

Moscow 
Mariners have dreamed for centuries of finding a commercially viable shortcut between Europe and Asia across the top of the world. Many have died trying, but none succeeded until late September, when two German freighters slipped quietly into Rotterdam Harbor after completing a historic month-long journey from Vladivostok, in Russia's Pacific far east, through the once-impassable Arctic route.

The Bremen-based company that operates the two specially reinforced cargo ships, the Beluga Fraternity and the Beluga Foresight, that made the journey said that taking the new route saved 10 days and $300,000 per ship over the usual 11,000 nautical-mile voyage through the Indian Ocean, the Suez Canal, and the Mediterranean in order to reach the North Atlantic.

"We are all very proud and delighted to be the first Western shipping company which has successfully transited the legendary Northeast Passage," the Beluga company said in a statement. It plans to begin using the route on a regular basis.

The Rapid Melt-Away of the Arctic Ice Cap Facilitates the First North Pole Circumnavigation | The Santos Republic

Summer 2010 has not only seen the first large commercial convoys of cargo vessels attempting to navigate to Europe along Russia&#8217;s northern sea coasts. At the moment there is a race between one Russian ship and one Norwegian ship to become the first ever sea vessels to circumnavigate the North Pole unaided. It is too early to say whether these attempts succeed due to uncertainties emanating from the drifting of sea ice and the onset of new winter freezes. The sea currents and winds contribute greatly to the navigability of the North East Passage as the sea ice is highly mobile and the drifting sea ice can easily close again the sea passage that had already once melted clear.

The 2010 race to circumnavigate the North Pole is the first of its kind although the Arctic Ocean&#8217;s perimeter melted off the coasts of the two continental mainlands already last year. The first North Pole and Arctic Ocean circumnavigation race is between a Norwegian and Russian ships.

*So, we have big freightors doing the NorthEast Passage, and a couple of small sailboats circumnavigating the North Pole in a single season, but you claim the ice is the same as it was two hundred years ago.

Once again, you are posting easily refutable nonsense.*


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## Cuyo (Feb 14, 2011)

Westwall is still the same idiot he's always been.


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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

Cuyo said:


> Westwall is still the same idiot he's always been.







Wow, cuyo is so original and look at the fools who thank him for such a pithy response.  Wow dood you're so cool.  And yet the historical evidence shows that 200 years ago the explorers of the time came within 150 miles of transiting through the NW passage, something your incredibly incompetent climatologists are claiming has only happened now.

You are all hoist on your petards.  Have fun once again you are exposed as political anti science and historically ignorant dolts....and that's hard, yet you manage it every single time!


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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> *Well, well.  Totally amazing. All these voyages of exploration had winter overs, but two big freightors navigated the NorthEast Passage in 2009*
> Global warming opens new Arctic shipping lane - CSMonitor.com
> 
> Moscow
> ...







Yeah imagine that 200 years ago they had to winter over because they were using SAILING SHIPS!  Imagine if they had had steel hulled steam ships fool!  They would have done it on the bounce!  God but you're a intellectual midget!


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## polarbear (Feb 14, 2011)

westwall said:


> Yes, it's amazing what you find when you actually read the records of the people who actually travelled there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...
















*Yes but You see, Captain OldRocks was skipping the icebreaker that cleared their path into the Nares Strait all the way to Fort Conger!*


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## Mini 14 (Feb 14, 2011)

polarbear said:


> *Yes but You see, Captain OldRocks was skipping the icebreaker that cleared their path into the Nares Strait all the way to Fort Conger!*




Uhm.....

I read that Fort Conger was built by gypsy penguins who pillaged and raped before fleeing to Antarctica?


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## Old Rocks (Feb 14, 2011)

westwall said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > *Well, well.  Totally amazing. All these voyages of exploration had winter overs, but two big freightors navigated the NorthEast Passage in 2009*
> ...



*Once again, try doing a little research before you flap your ignorant yap, Walleyes.*
Gjøa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1900, Amundsen bought her from Asbjørn Sexe of Ullensvang, Norway, for his forthcoming expedition to the Arctic Ocean. Gjøa was much smaller than vessels used by other Arctic expeditions, but Amundsen intended to live off the limited resources of the land and sea through which he was to travel, and reasoned that the land could sustain only a tiny crew (this had been the cause of the catastrophic failure of John Franklin's expedition fifty years previously). Her shallow draught would help her traverse the shoals of the Arctic straits. Perhaps most importantly the aging ship was all that Amundsen (who was financing his expedition largely by spending his inheritance) could afford.

Amundsen had little experience of Arctic sailing, and so decided to undertake a training expedition before braving the Arctic ice. He engaged Hans Christian Johannsen, her previous owner, and a small crew, and sailed from Tromsø in April 1901. The next five months were spent sealing on the pack ice of the Barents Sea. Following their return to Tromsø in September, Amundsen set about remedying the deficiencies in Gjøa that the trip had exposed. He had a 13 horsepower single-screw marine paraffin motor installed (she had hitherto been propelled only by sail, and had proved to be sluggish). Much of the winter was spent upgrading her ice sheathing; Amundsen knew she would spend several winters iced-in.

*So the Gjoa was not just a sailing ship, but had auxilary power with a screw.

And you might note that the boats circumnavigating the North Pole in 2010 were sailing ships.*


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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

From the report...

"However, examination of 44
explorers logs for the western Arctic from
1818 to 1910 reveals that climate indicators
such as navigability, the distribution and thickness
of annual sea ice,monthly surface air
temperature, and the onset of melt and freeze
were within the present range of variability."

I don't know of too many steam ships from 1818 now do you?  There were maybe three and the best was Fultons Clermont which was able to make a trip from Albany to New York in 32 hours in 1807 I think it was.


As for Amundson he was stuck by ICE!  

"The Northwest Passage, however, was not successfully navigated until 190306. The Norwegian Roald Amundsen and six companions ran into ice which trapped their ship Gjoa, and forced them to overwinter for three successive years before finally reaching the Pacific. Amundsen, of course, went on to greater fame as the conqueror of the South Pole."


Arctic Exploration - Hutchinson encyclopedia article about Arctic Exploration


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## Old Rocks (Feb 14, 2011)

Yep. And last summer a sailing ship circumnavigated the North Pole, Northwest Passage, and the Northeast Passage. In one summer.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 14, 2011)

Russian yacht circumnavigates North Pole : Voice of Russia

The Russian sailing yacht Peter I has wrapped up its one-season trip around the North Pole in what became the world&#8217;s first such voyage without an icebreaker.

It took the yacht just four months to accomplish its Arctic mission by sailing both the North East and North West Passage of Russia and Canada, respectively. In contrast, it took noted Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen more than six years to do the same. Aside from the Peter I, a Norwegian trimaran was also trying to break a world record in circumnavigating the North Pole in one season, but to no avail. At the end of the day, the Russian yacht proved to be better prepared to meet the ice than the Norwegian vessel, says Alexei Zhirov, of the All-Russian Federation of Sailing Sport.

Given the extreme conditions of the Arctic, the Russian crew constantly contacted specialists with the Arctic and Antarctic Research Institute in Moscow, who briefed the crewmembers on the weather and ice situation in the region, Zhirov explains. Of course, emergency situations were not uncommon, only to be ultimately rectified by the crew, he concludes.

Setting sail from St.Petersburg in early June, the yacht then covered over 12,000 nautical miles, reaching the three northernmost points of the Eurasian continent &#8211; Cape Dezhnev, Cape Chelyuskin and the Gdansk Bay&#8217;s Baltic Point. The Peter I is yet to sail the Atlantic Ocean to return home, a tricky task given severe weather conditions in the area. The vessel is due back in St.Petersburg in late November, with many in the Russian northern capital already looking forward to the yacht&#8217;s triumphant return.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 14, 2011)

âNorthern Passageâ â First also through the Northwest Passage « BÃ¸rge Ousland

The &#8220;Northern Passage&#8221; was the first boat to make a successful Arctic circumnavigation in one season. We crossed our wake north of Bergen, Norway, on the morning of 14 October. It is now clear that the &#8220;Northern Passage&#8221; was also the first boat to sail through both the Northeast and Northwest Passages during one and the same season.

.
The Russian boat &#8220;Peter 1st&#8221; has sailed the same route, recently crossing the North Atlantic and reaching Oslo today.


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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

So?  It's remarkably easier to sail these days with GPS and up to the minute weather reports.   You're comparing a modern sailing vessel with one from a hundred years ago.
You know cars are vastly improved from 100 years ago too.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 14, 2011)

LOL. Wallyeyes, nobody sailed either the Northwest Passage or the Northeast Passage in a single season. Now two small sailboats have done both in a single season. 

Your silly statement that the ice in the Arctic is the same as it was two hundred years ago is shown to be the mouthings of a very foolish person. 

But watch what happens this summer. Unless we get a stronger freeze than we had last March, this summer will see very low ice extant in the Arctic. 

Arctic Sea Ice News & Analysis


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## westwall (Feb 14, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> LOL. Wallyeyes, nobody sailed either the Northwest Passage or the Northeast Passage in a single season. Now two small sailboats have done both in a single season.
> 
> Your silly statement that the ice in the Arctic is the same as it was two hundred years ago is shown to be the mouthings of a very foolish person.
> 
> ...






Try looking at the relative performance of modern yachts vs sailing ships of old soemtime silly person.  A Cal 40 is a more seaworthy vessel than a Clipper ship.  Can sail much closer to the wind (which means it doesn't have to tack as much which means it doesn't have to travel 500 miles to go 200 forward) and is able to sail in worse conditions.  There is no comparison between the two. Try again, you're approaching epic fail here.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 15, 2011)

Really? You are demonstrating with every post what a fool you are. There are container freightors crossing the Artic Ocean now. Not just little sailboats. You think that if the ice allowed that they would not have been putting commercial ships across the Artic for the last two hundred years? That is what the search for the Northwest Passage was all about. 

Well now, due to the melting of the Artic Ocean sea ice, we not only have a Northwest Passage, but also a Northeast Passage.


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## westwall (Feb 15, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Really? You are demonstrating with every post what a fool you are. There are container freightors crossing the Artic Ocean now. Not just little sailboats. You think that if the ice allowed that they would not have been putting commercial ships across the Artic for the last two hundred years? That is what the search for the Northwest Passage was all about.
> 
> Well now, due to the melting of the Artic Ocean sea ice, we not only have a Northwest Passage, but also a Northeast Passage.








Really?  Right now there is a container ship crossing the Arctic...right now?


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## Old Rocks (Feb 15, 2011)

Still trying the stupid bit, ol' Walleyes. No more than the old ships moved in the winter. You know damned well that the freightors did use the Northeast Passage in the summer, something that has never been done before. Used it, and made passage in a matter of days, not two or three years as the first people to successfully navigate it did.


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## westwall (Feb 15, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Still trying the stupid bit, ol' Walleyes. No more than the old ships moved in the winter. You know damned well that the freightors did use the Northeast Passage in the summer, something that has never been done before. Used it, and made passage in a matter of days, not two or three years as the first people to successfully navigate it did.







God you are dumb.  It's a hell of a lot easier to navigate something when you KNOW where almost every thing is don't you think?  The people transiting it before had no idea where any particular passage went so they checked them all you twit.  Of course it took longer they didn't know where anything went fool!


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## Old Rocks (Feb 15, 2011)

Not so dumb as to insist what is obviously changed has not. 

Two small sailing ships circumnavigated the North Pole in the summer of 2010. They ran both the Northwest and Northeast passage in a matter of weeks. 200 years ago, nobody did either passage at all. A hundred years ago Amundsen did the Northwest Passage, but spent two winters in the ice. 

And nobody put a standard commercial ship through either passage until 2009. In spite of the obvious saving in fuel. 

Walleyes, please continue to make a fool of yourself.


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## westwall (Feb 15, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Not so dumb as to insist what is obviously changed has not.
> 
> Two small sailing ships circumnavigated the North Pole in the summer of 2010. They ran both the Northwest and Northeast passage in a matter of weeks. 200 years ago, nobody did either passage at all. A hundred years ago Amundsen did the Northwest Passage, but spent two winters in the ice.
> 
> ...







You are one of the most singularly ignorant or stupid people on this board.  Its easy to sail someplace when YOU KNOW WHERE THE HELL YOU'RE GOING MORON!


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## Old Rocks (Feb 15, 2011)

My, my. You mean that before 2009 and 2010 nobody knew where they were going?

And that the shipping companies were not going to take the Northeast Passage as soon as it was available? After all, it just represented huge savings in fuel and time.

Ah well, I will remind you of this conversation this summer.


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## westwall (Feb 15, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> My, my. You mean that before 2009 and 2010 nobody knew where they were going?
> 
> And that the shipping companies were not going to take the Northeast Passage as soon as it was available? After all, it just represented huge savings in fuel and time.
> 
> Ah well, I will remind you of this conversation this summer.








 Nice attempt at redirection olfraud, the comparison was between 200 years ago and today.  FAIL


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