# Alabama becomes the 22nd Constitutional Carry state...no permit needed to carry a gun if you are a law abiding citizen.



## 2aguy (Mar 11, 2022)

To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...






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						One moment, please...
					





					crimeresearch.org


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## JGalt (Mar 11, 2022)

What has happened to USMB? Two years ago, the resident left-wingers would have jumped into this thread with horror stories about "blood running in the streets" and "dead children."


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I live in a constitutional carry state, have several weapons, after being raised with weapons, trained with weapons and training others with weapons.  Still, no fan of "constitutional carry".  It kind of throws the whole "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment, right out the window.  No worry for me, personally, though.  I am permitted all but about 15 states.  I believe everyone has a right to have a weapon to defend their home and family.  I just think there should be some training and certification involve to carry them on the street.


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## Vastator (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. My home state just keeps getting better…


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## 2aguy (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> I live in a constitutional carry state, have several weapons, after being raised with weapons, trained with weapons and training others with weapons.  Still, no fan of "constitutional carry".  It kind of throws the whole "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment, right out the window.  No worry for me, personally, though.  I am permitted all but about 15 states.  I believe everyone has a right to have a weapon to defend their home and family.  I just think there should be some training and certification involve to carry them on the street.




Sorry.....any mandatory training will become the tool the left will use to ban guns........that is a simple fact.

Considering that constitutional carry doesn't even increase gun accidents or crime, there is no need to mandate a tool that will empower the gun grabbers.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Sorry.....any mandatory training will become the tool the left will use to ban guns........that is a simple fact.
> 
> Considering that constitutional carry doesn't even increase gun accidents or crime, there is no need to mandate a tool that will empower the gun grabbers.


Like always, left too paranoid about guns in general and the right too permissive about guns in general, but only "_possibly_" too paranoid about the left's irrational fears. Years ago, I had no difficulty getting a permit, not any onerous costs, or bizarre hoops to jump through. I am a believer in training and certification. I carry, daily if out and about. I am still mindful of some of the stupid crap I have seen on ranges, know, some people have no business carrying in public.


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## 2aguy (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Like always, left too paranoid about guns in general and the right too permissive about guns in general, but only "_possibly_" too paranoid about the left's irrational fears. Years ago, I had no difficulty getting a permit, not any onerous costs, or bizarre hoops to jump through. I am a believer in training and certification. I carry, daily if out and about. I am still mindful of some of the stupid crap I have seen on ranges, know, some people have no business carrying in public.




Yeah......lucky you.......that won't last if you mandate the training....everything you say was easy for you, will become expensive, onerous and will make it impossible for normal people to own and carry a gun for self defense ......

I too believe in training.....as much as you can get.......I also understand the left, and that if you give them mandatory training, it will be used to deny Americans the Right to own and carry a gun....


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

OH and IN are next - both have bills before their governors.
That will make 24.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> I live in a constitutional carry state, have several weapons, after being raised with weapons, trained with weapons and training others with weapons.  Still, no fan of "constitutional carry".  It kind of throws the whole "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment, right out the window


"Well regulated" modifies "militia".
The right to keep and bear arms is held by "the people".
Not the militia.
Not the people in the militia.
The people.
Thus, "well regulated" is irrelevant in a discussion regarding the right to keep and bear arms.


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## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



22 down, 28 to go


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Constitutional carry"

lol

A ridiculous political contrivance having nothing to do with the Constitution or law.

Requiring a permit to carry a concealed firearm is likewise Constitutional carry,  in no manner violating the Second Amendment.


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## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Constitutional carry"
> 
> lol
> 
> ...



do we need a permit to practice our 1st amendment rights?


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> 22 down, 28 to go


Not likely. 

Florida, for example, will never abandon its beloved License to Carry a Concealed Weapon or Firearm.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Florida, for example, will never abandon its beloved License to Carry a Concealed Weapon or Firearm.


^^^^
Another lie.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> do we need a permit to practice our 1st amendment rights?


Yes, permits for demonstrations and public gatherings are quite common.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Requiring a permit to carry a concealed firearm is likewise Constitutional carry,  in no manner violating the Second Amendment.


Tell us again why you believe the TX abortion law is constitutional.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Yes, permits for demonstrations and public gatherings are quite common.


He asks for apples.
You give him oranges.
No real surprise.


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## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Yes, permits for demonstrations and public gatherings are quite common.



yet I can practice my religion without a permit, I can walk down the street and talk without a permit.  I can stand on the corner and tell people about Jesus without a permit.  

Why should I need one to privately practice the 2nd amendment?


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah......lucky you.......that won't last if you mandate the training....everything you say was easy for you, will become expensive, onerous and will make it impossible for normal people to own and carry a gun for self defense ......
> 
> I too believe in training.....as much as you can get.......I also understand the left, and that if you give them mandatory training, it will be used to deny Americans the Right to own and carry a gun....


Normal people can afford it here.  The people that cannot afford it, have not taken the classes, learned or re-familiarized themselves with the laws, regulation, governing use, defining self-defense. etc can sometimes get themselves into trouble and harm others, like those idiots in Georgia, doing "life without parole".  They are the same people that do not keep a relationship with a competent lawyer and the lawyer's card in their wallet, same people that do not carry increased liability insurance due to carrying, are not dues paying members of an association of carriers, with legal assistance, that keep up with the laws, gives training and educational material, etc.  Carrying, like other "freedom" comes with responsibilities and many may not consider the downside.
I think it ought to be available at reasonably low expense in all states and cities.  It is not, but should be.  Saying no training necessary, we don't need to know what to expect from you and don't care (which is what the constitutional carry laws really say) is stupid.  Just my opinion.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> "Well regulated" modifies "militia".
> The right to keep and bear arms is held by "the people".
> Not the militia.
> Not the people in the militia.
> ...


Every weapon carrier, whether they signed up, wish to be or not is or should look at themself as part of the militia in general, ready and able to step in as necessary for the common good.  Many are actually a danger to themself and everybody around them.  Legally arming on the street every thug, that has evaded criminal prosecution before the age of 18 is dumb.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Every weapon carrier, whether they signed up, wish to be or not is or should look at themself as part of the militia in general, ready and able to step in as necessary for the common good.  Many are actually a danger to themself and everybody around them.  Legally arming on the street every thug, that has evaded criminal prosecution before the age of 18 is dumb.


All well and good - but it doesn't change the fact that "well regulated" does not, in any way shape or form, have bearing on the right keep and bear arms.


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> I live in a constitutional carry state, have several weapons, after being raised with weapons, trained with weapons and training others with weapons.  Still, no fan of "constitutional carry".  It kind of throws the whole "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment, right out the window.  No worry for me, personally, though.  I am permitted all but about 15 states.  I believe everyone has a right to have a weapon to defend their home and family.  I just think there should be some training and certification involve to carry them on the street.


Because you are willing to shoot your own countryman. The least qualified person to be allowed near a gun. The 2nd amendment allows the gun nuts like that to have guns. What a fucked up nation.


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## Lastamender (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> All well and good - but it doesn't change the fact that "well regulated" does not, in any way shape or form, have bearing on the right keep and bear arms.


As far as I'm concerned, you can keep them and bear them at the house, for protection of you, your family, and your castle or hovel as the case may be.  You should be regulated as to carrying in public.  I agree with most of the law enforcement organizations that have spoken out against it, but went ignored.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, you can keep them and bear them at the house, for protection of you, your family, and your castle or hovel as the case may be.  You should be regulated as to carrying in public.


So long as that regulation does not infringe on he right to keep and bear arms, sure.
The right to carry a gun does not emanate from the state, so the state does not have standing to issue, much less require, such a permit.  Any such requirement is an infringement.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> So long as that regulation does not infringe on he right to keep and bear arms, sure.
> The right to carry a gun does not emanate from the state, so the state does not have standing to issue, much less require, such a permit.  Any such requirement is an infringement.


We have freedom of religion, but it doesn't mean you can set up chairs in the middle of a downtown intersection whenever you like and hold service.  Lots of rights call for requirements and regulation.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> We have freedom of religion, but it doesn't mean you can set up chairs in the middle of a downtown intersection whenever you like and hold service.


Apples and oranges, and one that avoids the point I made.
A proper analogy is for a state to require permit before a person can stand on a street corner with a sign that says "Jesus Saves".

Why do you not understand the state does not have standing to issue as permit for the basic exercise of a right?


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## 2aguy (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> We have freedom of religion, but it doesn't mean you can set up chairs in the middle of a downtown intersection whenever you like and hold service.  Lots of rights call for requirements and regulation.



Those are space use issues…..since a public space is used by all citizens….you do not have to get a permit o practice your religion.

Get back to us when you are required to get a permit to be a catholic, or when you want to write a book or post on a website….

The majority of police actually support people carrying guns….it is the politically appointed chiefs who tow the leftist line against carrying guns.

Again……any mandatory permit or training will become a tool of gun banning by other means…..


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Apples and oranges, and one that voids the point I made.
> A proper analogy is for a state to require permit before a person can stand on a street corner with a sign that says "Jesus Saves".
> 
> Why do you not understand the state does not have standing to issue as permit for the basic exercise of a right?


Voiding the point you made was the point.
Of course the state has standing in the courts of your state.  Whatever made you think that state courts had no standing in state courts of your state?  Next time you get a ticket, try telling the judge he has no standing and let us know how it goes.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Voiding the point you made was the point.


-A- voided the point.  Typo.


White 6 said:


> Of course the state has standing in the courts of your state.


There you go, avoiding the point again

Why do you not understand the state does not have standing to issue as permit for the basic exercise of a right?


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> -A- voided the point.  Typo.
> 
> There you go, avoiding the point again
> 
> Why do you not understand the state does not have standing to issue as permit for the basic exercise of a right?


No.  Again, I VOIDED your point, as it was a false point.  "Having standing" is a legal term of art.  States always have standing in their own courts.  If you don't like the state's ruling, you can appeal it.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> No.  Again, I VOIDED your point, as it was a false point.  "Having standing" is a legal term of art.


You don't understand.  Perhaps I was too nuanced.

You do not have standing to issue a license to sell Star Wars toys.
In the same way, the state does not have standing to issue a license for the basic exercise of a right.
Rights are not held by the state and issued to the people; as such, states cannot issue permits for the basic exercise of those rights.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You don't understand.  Perhaps I was too nuanced.
> 
> You do not have standing to issue a license to sell Star Wars toys.
> In the same way, the state does not have standing to issue a license for the basic exercise of a right.
> Rights are not held by the state and issued to the people; as such, states cannot issue permits for the basic exercise of those rights.


You simply misconstrue "having standing".












						Standing
					






					www.law.cornell.edu


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> You simply misconstrue "having standing".


There you go, avoidng the point again.

You do not have standing to issue a license to sell Star Wars toys.
In the same way, the state does not have standing to issue a license for the basic exercise of a right.
Rights are not held by the state and issued to the people; as such, states cannot issue permits for the basic exercise of those rights.      

Why do you refuse to understand this?


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> There you go, avoidng the point again.
> 
> You do not have standing to issue a license to sell Star Wars toys.
> In the same way, the state does not have standing to issue a license for the basic exercise of a right.
> ...


You are trying to get around established law.  You won't, unless or until laws are changed by legislation.  Then a new law is in place.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> You are trying to get around established law.


And you are avoiding a point you know you cannot meaningfully respond so.
I accept your concession.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And you are avoiding a point you know you cannot meaningfully respond so.
> I accept your concession.


Like I said, if you do not think state courts have standing, to assert, judge and defend the laws of their state, just tell it to the judge, next time you get a ticket or are charged with a state crime.  Good luck.
Here is one for you.  A state is not construed to have standing to change the laws in effect in another state.  Texas and Trump found this out after the 2020 election.  The supreme court ruled they did not have standing and refused to hear the case.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Like I said...


Thank you for reinforcing my statement.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Thank you for reinforcing my statement.


Thank you for proving you do not understand law, legal terminology, courts, or legislations.  Somehow I suspect you are just one of those that would pitch it all out and start over, if you were allowed to, but since not, will only impotently post drivel.


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## M14 Shooter (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Thank you for proving you....


You are avoiding a point you know you cannot meaningfully respond so.
I accept your concession.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You are avoiding a point you know you cannot meaningfully respond so.
> I accept your concession.


You have no point and never did.


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## marvin martian (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My biggest disappointment with Trump is that he didn't push for national constitutional carry. I think Desantis would if he got the chance. I would be open to another amendment, actually, that specifically guarantees constitutional open and concealed carry for all law-abiding American citizens (or an addition to the 2nd that spells it out specifically so the anti-civil rights lefties can't object/lie).


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## JGalt (Mar 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> "Well regulated" modifies "militia".
> The right to keep and bear arms is held by "the people".
> Not the militia.
> Not the people in the militia.
> ...



Exactly. "Well regulated" in the vernacular used during that time doesn't mean what the gun-law aficionados think it means.

This has been discussed so many times on USMB, I won't even bother to repeat it here.


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## JGalt (Mar 11, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Because you are willing to shoot your own countryman. The least qualified person to be allowed near a gun. The 2nd amendment allows the gun nuts like that to have guns. What a fucked up nation.



Dude: White 6 is a Biden-supporting Democrat and a Trump misanthropist.  He most likely believes in the same socially-liberal policies you do, except he probably owns what you'd call an "assault weapon."


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## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> We have freedom of religion, but it doesn't mean you can set up chairs in the middle of a downtown intersection whenever you like and hold service. Lots of rights call for requirements and regulation.



If I choose to set chairs in the middle of a downtown intersection to hold a church service the permit would not be for the religious service, but for the disruption of the public.   

Me carrying my weapon without anyone even knowing about it no more disrupts the public than me saying a silent prayer as I am walking down the road.

Nobody ever needs a permit to practice their religion


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> If I choose to set chairs in the middle of a downtown intersection to hold a church service the permit would not be for the religious service, but for the disruption of the public.
> 
> Me carrying my weapon without anyone even knowing about it no more disrupts the public than me saying a silent prayer as I am walking down the road.
> 
> Nobody ever needs a permit to practice their religion


That is because you are not preaching to your congregation that want to have service in the streets.  If you were, you would say it infringes your religious freedom.  But, you are of the religion that wants guns in the streets (that have disrupted many lives by their misuse) with no regulation.  I like guns and am wearing one now (having not taken it off), just as I was when I had to go to Home Depot for a pair of cabinet hinges.  I just think they deserve some regulation out in public, off your private property.  At present more states than not, agree with me.


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## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> That is because you are not preaching to your congregation that want to have service in the streets.  If you were, you would say it infringes your religious freedom.  But, you are of the religion that wants guns in the streets (that have disrupted many lives by their misuse) with no regulation.  I like guns and am wearing one now (having not taken it off), just as I was when I had to go to Home Depot for a pair of cabinet hinges.  I just think they deserve some regulation out in public, off your private property.  At present more states than not, agree with me.



We have plenty of regulation for guns, to pretend we do not does your argument a disservice.

I should not need the government's permission to walk around with a gun on me anymore than I should need it to carry around a bible


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> We have plenty of regulation for guns, to pretend we do not does your argument a disservice.
> 
> I should not need the government's permission to walk around with a gun on me anymore than I should need it to carry around a bible


What state do you live in?


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## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> What state do you live in?



Illinois.


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## JGalt (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> Illinois.



A FIB?


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## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

JGalt said:


> A FIB?



What are you talking about?


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Constitutional carry"
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


If the license is easily obtained and free of charge, sure.  Paying for a CCW class and the permit equate to a poll tax and poll taxes are unconstitutional because a right can't be taxed.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Yes, permits for demonstrations and public gatherings are quite common.


Journalists don't have to have a permit to report the news.

A gathering on private property doesn't require a permit.

There's no law requiring a permit to petition the government for redress of grievances.

In fact, the right to keep and bear arms is the only, single right that requires background checks, fees (taxes?) and permits


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Because you are willing to shoot your own countryman. The least qualified person to be allowed near a gun. The 2nd amendment allows the gun nuts like that to have guns. What a fucked up nation.


Yeah, we don't have to stand back and submit to being victimized like in your country.  We're really fucked up...lol


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, you can keep them and bear them at the house, for protection of you, your family, and your castle or hovel as the case may be.  You should be regulated as to carrying in public.  I agree with most of the law enforcement organizations that have spoken out against it, but went ignored.


As long as the training and the permits are free.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> We have freedom of religion, but it doesn't mean you can set up chairs in the middle of a downtown intersection whenever you like and hold service.  Lots of rights call for requirements and regulation.


No, but I can set up chairs in a public park and hold worship services, without a permit.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> Illinois.


Wow.  I can see why you favor constitutional carry. What the heck is GAT?



Plus a $10.00 FOID Firearms Ownder ID?
Jesus, how did you people lose control of that state?


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The majority of police actually support people carrying guns….it is the politically appointed chiefs who tow the leftist line against carrying guns.


I think those chiefs are looking at the revenue generated from the classes.  In my state the class costs in the neighborhood of $145.00 and a renewal class every 5 years.  The sheriff's department gets a cut of that.  Typically, the class is taught by a deputy, so there's that 

The permit fees are about $150.00 and the state police keep ALLLLLL that money.  That's $150.00 Everytime you renew.

That's why police brass oppose constitutional carry.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> My biggest disappointment with Trump is that he didn't push for national constitutional carry. I think Desantis would if he got the chance. I would be open to another amendment, actually, that specifically guarantees constitutional open and concealed carry for all law-abiding American citizens (or an addition to the 2nd that spells it out specifically so the anti-civil rights lefties can't object/lie).


I blame Ryan and McConnell for that.  The bill was ready to sail through both houses and they killed it


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## JGalt (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> What are you talking about?



We call them "Fucking Illinois Bastards" in Wisconsin.

Don't tell me you've never heard that before.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> If the license is easily obtained and free of charge, sure.  Paying for a CCW class and the permit equate to a poll tax and poll taxes are unconstitutional because a right can't be taxed.


Poll tax is for going to the polls to vote and yes, illegal.  Nothing wrong with fees for weapons permit, classes required, and certification, unless they are outrageous.  Mine was something like $65.00 for 8 years, as retired military.  That's not bad, but some states are high as a cat's back.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> No, but I can set up chairs in a public park and hold worship services, without a permit.


As a permit holder, I get to legally carry in most public parks and like anybody else can worship where I like, but prefer home or church.


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## Colin norris (Mar 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To be free...you need guns....lots of guns in the hands of your people.......Ukraine is learning that lesson today........people trapped in democrat party cities where the democrat party first attacks and intimidates the police and then they release the most violent gun offenders over and over again.....are learning this lesson as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jesus christ. You gun nuts certainly get wound up about nothing. 
Next you'll be complaining about gun crimes and blaming the democrats.


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## JGalt (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Wow.  I can see why you favor constitutional carry. What the heck is GAT?
> View attachment 614287
> Plus a $10.00 FOID Firearms Ownder ID?
> Jesus, how did you people lose control of that state?



Fucking Illinois. They don't even recognize my concealed carry permit. Nor does Minnesota.

I got my permit 11 years ago. No classes, a simple DD-214 emailed to the WI DOJ and $50 bucks to prove that I wasn't wanted by the FBI.

I've been shooting ever since I was 10 years old. My dad was a shooter, a hunter, a reloader, had 12 kids and brought home boxes of guns, and nobody ever had an accident. I reload for 10 different calibers, can strip almost any firearm down to the component parts and reassemble it with no leftover parts, and I shoot thousands of rounds every year in my back yard range or at the public range.

I can recite the four basic rules of firearms safety from memory, and in the 11 years I've carried a loaded Glock 19 Gen 4 with two spare 15-round magazines every day, I've never been tempted to shoot anyone.

Well, there was that one time. But I also understand that carrying a concealed weapon means that I gave up my right to be an asshole, so he lived.


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## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> I think those chiefs are looking at the revenue generated from the classes.  In my state the class costs in the neighborhood of $145.00 and a renewal class every 5 years.  The sheriff's department gets a cut of that.  Typically, the class is taught by a deputy, so there's that
> 
> The permit fees are about $150.00 and the state police keep ALLLLLL that money.  That's $150.00 Everytime you renew.
> 
> That's why police brass oppose constitutional carry.


All law enforcement organization here opposed it.  Not for the money.  My class was not by law enforcement.
State that look at it as am money making opportunity (and I agree, sounds like yours does) made and are making a bad mistake.  People are going to have weapons.  It would be better for law enforcement to know who they are dealing with and know people in general have some level of standardized minimal training in handling, safety and the laws.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> All law enforcement organization here opposed it.  Not for the money.  My class was not by law enforcement.
> State that look at it as am money making opportunity (and I agree, sounds like yours does) made and are making a bad mistake.  People are going to have weapons.  It would be better for law enforcement to know who they are dealing with and know people in general have some level of standardized minimal training in handling, safety and the laws.


Well no, law enforcement doesn't need to know what weapons I own, nor the extent of my capabilities with those weapons.  Nosey ass cops are the reason I quit going to a free, public range and spent 800 bucks to join a private range.  One day a cop observed my proficiency with my EDC and started asking my name, where I live and on the way to his vehicle he stopped to look at my license plate.


----------



## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

JGalt said:


> We call them "Fucking Illinois Bastards" in Wisconsin.
> 
> Don't tell me you've never heard that before.



I have not, but I am a long way from Wisconsin.

Hell, I did not know that hoosier was an insult till I moved here!


----------



## Golfing Gator (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Wow.  I can see why you favor constitutional carry. What the heck is GAT?
> View attachment 614287
> Plus a $10.00 FOID Firearms Ownder ID?
> Jesus, how did you people lose control of that state?



Don't blame me, those laws predate me.  I do not have such a card because none of my guns are registered, and to get one I would have to register them.


----------



## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Well no, law enforcement doesn't need to know what weapons I own, nor the extent of my capabilities with those weapons.  Nosey ass cops are the reason I quit going to a free, public range and spent 800 bucks to join a private range.  One day a cop observed my proficiency with my EDC and started asking my name, where I live and on the way to his vehicle he stopped to look at my license plate.


You have free public ranges up there?  Who picks up the brass, repairs target stands, etc?


----------



## White 6 (Mar 11, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> Don't blame me, those laws predate me.  I do not have such a card because none of my guns are registered, and to get one I would have to register them.


If not bought through the system, I would not register them either.  My brother and I both have weapons our father owned and certainly never registered.  We do not have a Fire Arms Identification card requirement down here.  I had not actually heard of it, until you told me your state.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 11, 2022)

White 6 said:


> You have free public ranges up there?  Who picks up the brass, repairs target stands, etc?


I pick up as much brass as I can, along with my fellow range whores.  Policing brass isn't an issue...lol.  The one I went to is operated by the department of natural resources.  It was a nice range.  100 yard rifle deck, 50 yard pistol deck, shotgun deck.  Too many nosey ass cops, though .


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 12, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> yet I can practice my religion without a permit, I can walk down the street and talk without a permit.  I can stand on the corner and tell people about Jesus without a permit.
> 
> Why should I need one to privately practice the 2nd amendment?


You’d need to ask states and local jurisdictions that require them.

The fact remains that requiring a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm is perfectly Constitutional – the Supreme Court having never invalidated such laws – and requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon is likewise ‘Constitutional carry.’

Again, ‘Constitutional carry’ is a political contrivance of the right, having nothing to do with the Constitution, Second Amendment, or the law.

The article linked below reviews the nature of fees and expenses related to Constitutional rights:

“Nonetheless, some modest taxes might not amount to substantial burdens, as a review of taxes and fees on other constitutional rights illustrates. Taxes based on the content of speech are unconstitutional, regardless of their magnitude. But this is a special case of the principle that discrimination based on certain kinds of characteristics — race, sex, religiosity, or the content or viewpoint of speech — is unconstitutional. Setting aside these special areas of constitutionally forbidden discrimination, and setting aside poll taxes, which were constitutional until the Twenty-Fourth Amendment forbade them, other kinds of taxes, fees, and indirect costs imposed on the exercise of constitutional rights are often permissible.”





__





						Gun License Fees and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms for Self-Defense - The Volokh Conspiracy
					

After McDonald, and the newly enacted Chicago handgun ordinance, people are again turning to whether and when gun license fees are unconstitutional. I’ve heard some argue that under existing constitutional rules applicable to other rights — especially the First Amendment — any fee for the...



					volokh.com


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 12, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> ^^^^
> Another lie.


Carrying a concealed weapon in Florida is illegal – hence the requirement for a license.

The purpose of the license is to avoid being subject to criminal prosecution for carrying a concealed weapon.

License-holders are also exempt from the state’s three-day wait requirement when purchasing a new gun; a license-holder may take his new gun home the same day of purchase.

Moreover, license-holders are allowed to keep a gun in their car at work even if their employer prohibits guns on the work property.

Florida’s License to Carry a Concealed Weapon or Firearm isn’t going anywhere.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 12, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> Why should I need one to privately practice the 2nd amendment?


Like all rights, the Second Amendment right is subject to limits, regulations, and restrictions by government consistent with Second Amendment jurisprudence.

Among those lawful, Constitutional regulations is that a permit or license must be obtained to carry a concealed firearm.

Those who believe such laws violate the Second Amendment are of course at liberty to seek to have permit requirement laws repealed through the political process or challenge permit requirement laws in court through the judicial process.

Otherwise, nonsense such as ‘Constitutional carry’ is a ‘solution’ in search of a problem that doesn’t exist; it’s an example of the aspirational/political second amendment, a bad-faith partisan effort to garner votes and placate the conservative base.


----------



## Golfing Gator (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Those who believe such laws violate the Second Amendment are of course at liberty to seek to have permit requirement laws repealed through the political process or challenge permit requirement laws in court through the judicial process.
> 
> Otherwise, nonsense such as ‘Constitutional carry’ is a ‘solution’ in search of a problem that doesn’t exist; it’s an example of the aspirational/political second amendment, a bad-faith partisan effort to garner votes and placate the conservative base.



So, we are seeking to have permit requirement laws repealed through the political process, as you suggest and yet you call it a solution in search of a problem.  

I do not agree that it is not a problem, I should not need the government's permission to exercise my freedom as long as doing so does not in any way impinge on the freedom of anyone else.  

If I have a gun on my person or not has zero bearing on your or anyone around you.   Requiring the government's permission to do so is no different than needed the government's permission to say a prayer silently in public


----------



## M14 Shooter (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> You have no point and never did.


Now you're just lying to yourself.
Odd you would choose to do this rather than admit you are wrong.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Like all rights, the Second Amendment right is subject to limits, regulations, and restrictions by government consistent with Second Amendment jurisprudence.
> Among those lawful, Constitutional regulations is that a permit or license must be obtained to carry a concealed firearm.


When did the USSC rule that carry permits are constitutional?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Mar 12, 2022)

Colin norris said:


> Jesus christ. You gun nuts certainly get wound up about nothing.
> Next you'll be complaining about gun crimes and blaming the democrats.


Thank you for further illustrating your ignorance, bigotry, and irrational fear.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The fact remains that requiring a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm is perfectly Constitutional – the Supreme Court having never invalidated such laws


The USSC has not invalidated the TX abortion law.
Thus, your belief that it is constitutional.


----------



## Vastator (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Well no, law enforcement doesn't need to know what weapons I own, nor the extent of my capabilities with those weapons.  Nosey ass cops are the reason I quit going to a free, public range and spent 800 bucks to join a private range.  One day a cop observed my proficiency with my EDC and started asking my name, where I live and on the way to his vehicle he stopped to look at my license plate.


Just one of the numerous benefits of being a rural landowner. I can go to the range without leaving my property.


----------



## Esdraelon (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> I am still mindful of some of the stupid crap I have seen on ranges, know, some people have no business carrying in public.


No one ever said freedom was easy or safe.  The idiots will cull themselves eventually.  IF there was sufficient desire for it, a media campaign among the youth making the idea of proper handling "cool" could do more than government restrictions.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

JGalt said:


> Dude: White 6 is a Biden-supporting Democrat and a Trump misanthropist.  He most likely believes in the same socially-liberal policies you do, except he probably owns what you'd call an "assault weapon."


Yes, I was replying to his/her post in general, as in, I'm on their side. Americans use guns for alledged 'self protection'. It's a fucked up gun nation. Are you having a moment?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Yeah, we don't have to stand back and submit to being victimized like in your country.  We're really fucked up...lol


Who's victimising you?


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Who's victimising you?


No one, yet and if anyone does attack me, I'm going to bus' a cap in his ass.  

You?  You'll just have to take and hope you survive.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Vastator said:


> Just one of the numerous benefits of being a rural landowner. I can go to the range without leaving my property.


I can too at the homestead, but I'm living out of state for a few years.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> No one, yet and if anyone does attack me, I'm going to bus' a cap in his ass.
> 
> You?  You'll just have to take and hope you survive.


Who's attacked you in your lifetime, excluding the playground at school.

I have to survive what?

Sorry for injecting reality.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Who's attacked you in your lifetime, excluding the playground at school.
> 
> I have to survive what?
> 
> Sorry for injecting reality.


Nobody, yet.  Mostly because a would've assailant knows I'm not helpless.  They take one look at me and say, "that white boy's probably strapped.  I ain't fuckin with him".  At that point, my carry piece has done exactly what I need it to do.  That and my situational awareness keeps me out of positions where a bad guy would have the upper hand.

You?  You've just been lucky up til now...lol


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Constitutional carry"
> 
> lol
> 
> A ridiculous political contrivance having nothing to do with the Constitution or law.



It is obviously a much less ridiculous a political contrivance than calling the onerous laws in NY or NJ or CA, etc., "_gun safety laws_".

There is no power granted to the federal government to have any interest whatsoever in the personal arms of the private citizen and certainly no power has been recognized that would force states to enact what anti-gun douche nozzles in the federal government, feels they are lacking.

The state government's enacting "constitutional carry" _are_ exercising legislative and executive powers under their *state* constitutions, just like restrictive states with no RKBA provision have and are (for now) enacting strict gun control.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Requiring a permit to carry a concealed firearm is likewise Constitutional carry,  in no manner violating the Second Amendment.



Well, it depends on what kind of permit.  If the permit is just a vetting process allowing the state to ensure the permittee is not a prohibited person, with no other requirements except being a law-abiding citizen or qualified alien, then requiring a permit is permissible under the 2ndA. 

Historically and legally, the setting of the rules for the carriage of arms has always been a state issue and the 2nd was never examined for guidance or thought to speak on any aspect of gun carry and concealed carry specifically -- _primarily and simply because the 2nd was not applicable to the states_.

That "state's right" to require a permit, must be tempered with the fact that states lost the "right" to enact  gun laws that require distinctions between citizens be recognized in law.  

A fine line exists where a limited power to discriminate between citizens has been recognized, e.g., allowing convicted criminals to be excluded from being granted a permit, but that can not be applied in a discriminatory manner on citizens with no rights disability and who are in fact owed full deference and respect of their rights.

There is no "Bill of Rights Free-Zone" in the USA.


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Not likely.
> 
> Florida, for example, will never abandon its beloved License to Carry a Concealed Weapon or Firearm.



Why would you think any state going constitutional carry for its own residents would eliminate its permit system?  Even in some constitutional carry states, non-residents are not granted the full concealed carry rights of residents.  A non-resident is allowed to carry according to the reciprocity agreements the AG's have entered into.  Those reciprocity arrangements require a permit from your home state.

With the combination of constitutional carry states and reciprocity agreements, a Florida resident with the Florida permit can carry in Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming.

Even in full constitutional carry states, it is a good idea for a non-resident who is carrying to have a permit from their home state, if only to shorten one's encounter with police, at say a traffic stop. 

.


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Because you are willing to shoot your own countryman. The least qualified person to be allowed near a gun. The 2nd amendment allows the gun nuts like that to have guns. What a fucked up nation.



And all of us Americans would be very happy if you never cast a shadow on our country.  Even better would be if you would refrain from commenting about us; it has been a long time since we cared what a piss-soaked Brit thought about us.


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, you can keep them and bear them at the house, for protection of you, your family, and your castle or hovel as the case may be.  You should be regulated as to carrying in public.  I agree with most of the law enforcement organizations that have spoken out against it, but went ignored.



A state choosing to not require a permit for law-abiding citizens to carry a gun for self defense, is in fact "regulating" . . . 

The word "regulating" means setting / adjusting for proper function, not restricting, or an even stupider take, _eliminating_ function.


----------



## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> A state choosing to not require a permit for law-abiding citizens to carry a gun for self defense, is in fact "regulating" . . .
> 
> The word "regulating" means setting / adjusting for proper function, not restricting, or an even stupider take, _eliminating_ function.


I think they call that deregulating, as they used to have a regulation against it.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> That is because you are not preaching to your congregation that want to have service in the streets.  If you were, you would say it infringes your religious freedom.  But, you are of the religion that wants guns in the streets (that have disrupted many lives by their misuse) with no regulation.  I like guns and am wearing one now (having not taken it off), just as I was when I had to go to Home Depot for a pair of cabinet hinges.  I just think they deserve some regulation out in public, off your private property.  At present more states than not, agree with me.




A lot of states supported slavery as well and then Jim crow...


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> My biggest disappointment with Trump is that he didn't push for national constitutional carry. I think Desantis would if he got the chance. I would be open to another amendment, actually, that specifically guarantees constitutional open and concealed carry for all law-abiding American citizens (or an addition to the 2nd that spells it out specifically so the anti-civil rights lefties can't object/lie).



I do not believe the federal government has any authority to impress constitutional (pemitless) carry on the states.

As a matter of law, the ability of a citizen to carry or bear a firearm outside their home is not something that has been historically prohibited by the federal government (except on certain federal property).  SCOTUS' endorsements of the doctrine of "sensitive place" prohibitions would suggest that won't be disturbed. 

Neither has there ever been any recognition of any 2ndA right as an immunity against the state or local laws that *do* forbid citizens to carry or bear a firearm outside their home (it is being tested for the first time right presently).  

The states have *always* possessed the power to set the rules for the _manner of carry_ in public without any reference to the 2nd Amendment, the 2nd Amendment was never intended to be a restraint on the states and since the 2ndA was incorporated under the 14th (_McDonald_, 2010), that has been in suspended animation.

That state power to restrict the citizen's ability to carry or bear a firearm outside their home was only limited by their state's recognition and respect for the right to arms under their state constitutions _if their constitutions secure the right_ . . . Remember, NY has no RKBA provision in their state constitution so NY's and NYC's lawmakers enjoyed unrestrained power to implement what they wanted on carry (and gun ownership as a whole), which makes the _NYSRPA_ case argued in SCOTUS all the more important and interesting.

The only state or local laws on arms that can be argued to be unconstitutional right now, are outright handgun bans (_Heller / McDonald_) and stun gun bans (_Ceatano_).

There is no doubt the NY case is going to expand the protections of the 2nd Amendment in the context of concealed carry permits.  

New York has conceded that a 2nd Amendment right to arms, _even for self defense, even outside the home_, exists in NY state, (rememeber the state has no RKBA provision) but made the irreconcilable argument that inside NY City that 2ndA right doesn't count, the city can limit it with its more restrictive than even the state permit system.

The NY brief, believing they were helping their position, discussed Circuit court decisions UPHOLDING various "good cause" requirements for carry licenses. In doing so, they concede that those courts all say the 2nd Amendment protects a right to carry a gun outside the home:


"All of these courts proceeded on the understanding that the Second Amendment right applies outside the home. The First Circuit explained that while this Court’s decisions in Heller and McDonald invalidated laws that prohibited the possession of firearms in the home, the Court’s reasoning “impl[ied] that the right to carry a firearm for self-defense guaranteed by the Second Amendment is not limited to the home.”​​Brief of respondents Keith M. Corlett, et al. in opposition, http://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/20/20-843/169604/20210222170827872_20-843_Brief%20in%20Opposition.pdf ​

We will see how far SCOTUS takes that; I was hoping Thomas was going to write _NYSRPA_ but seeing the authorship of recent opinions that looks unlikely.  I'm predicting Kavanaugh will write for the majority.  If Kavanaugh is writing it, this NY case has even bigger potential to be groundbreaking for gun rights, not just for carry rights. 

In oral arguments, there was extensive questioning of the lower court's bullshit "two-step inquiry", which was used to sustain NY's carry law being challenged and assault weapon bans and large capacity magazine bans and other gun laws (all in all, a total of 50 times).  

Given Kavanaugh wrote what is the template for the "_*text*_*, informed by history and tradition*" doctrine in his dissent in *Heller II*, it stands to reason the "two step inquiry" is going to be invalidated.

That's an even safer bet because the Principal Deputy Solicitor General of the USA, Brian Fletcher (representing the Biden Administration, who requested oral argument time) conceded that applying the "_*text, informed by history and tradition*_" is the proper interpretive process to decide the constitutionality of contested gun laws. (THANKS JOE!)

If the Circuit court two-step is invalidated, it will cause a tidal wave of new challenges and reversals of those decisions and dozens of laws will fall in short order.

As it stands right now, it has been over 120 days since _NYSRPA_ was argued, _Heller_ and _McDonald_ each came in at around 110 days after argument. . .  I can sense the leftist tears welling up!

.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Wow.  I can see why you favor constitutional carry. What the heck is GAT?
> View attachment 614287
> Plus a $10.00 FOID Firearms Ownder ID?
> Jesus, how did you people lose control of that state?




This.....

More than 91 percent of respondents support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or not been deemed psychologically/medically incapable.
A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent).
Police Gun Control Survey: Are legally-armed citizens the best solution to gun violence?
=======

National Association of Chiefs of Police Annual Surveys on Concealed Handgun Reciprocity and other issues


National Association of Chiefs of Police Annual Surveys on Concealed Handgun Reciprocity and other issues - Crime Prevention Research Center

Concealed carry reciprocity: Support

29th annual Survey..... 88.62%
28th.............................86.4%
27th.............................63.3%

Can armed citizens help lower violent crime activity: Support

29th......75.77%
28th......76%
27th.......76.4%


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The fact remains that requiring a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm is perfectly Constitutional – the Supreme Court having never invalidated such laws.



There has not been any challenge of concealed carry permit systems and restrictions in a post-_Heller_ and _McDonald_ legal landscape. 

Until NYSRPA on Nov 3, 2021, no case was argued with the power of 14th Amendment incorporation behind it.  There is no "precedent" supporting you, even _Heller_'s mention that, "_the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues_" can only be read to say that on that day in June, 2008, the law was that the 2nd Amendment had not been held to have any operation on state or local laws,  _McDonald_ (2010) altered that dynamic.

You saying these various state restrictions on carry for self defense are now all constitutional, is leftist dogmatic theory at best and pie-in-the-sky, wishful thinking at worst . . .

.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Poll tax is for going to the polls to vote and yes, illegal.  Nothing wrong with fees for weapons permit, classes required, and certification, unless they are outrageous.  Mine was something like $65.00 for 8 years, as retired military.  That's not bad, but some states are high as a cat's back.




Yeah...it is the "outrageous" part you just don't want to acknowledge......given the power the democrats will make those fees and classes "outrageous," denying the Right to normal citizens who don't have the time and money to jump through all the hoops...

We do not require permits, classes or certification for any of the other Rights.........the 2nd Amendment is no different.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> When did the USSC rule that carry permits are constitutional?



I imagine the idiot will say because they didn't hear arguments for it.....and make a ruling...thus, until they decide they are Constitutional......


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Like all rights, the Second Amendment right is subject to limits, regulations, and restrictions by government consistent with Second Amendment jurisprudence.



The enforcement of the 2nd Amendment is in its infancy.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Among those lawful, Constitutional regulations is that a permit or license must be obtained to carry a concealed firearm.



Mmmmkay . . .  Do you believe panicked Hawaii's proposal for a new concealed carry law is constitutional?  It will make the permit only valid for 6 months and for new _and renewals_, the state is going to require 22 hours of training with live fire and also require the person carry and deploy a taser before deadly force . . . Are those "regulations" constitutional?



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Those who believe such laws violate the Second Amendment are of course at liberty to seek to have permit requirement laws repealed through the political process or challenge permit requirement laws in court through the judicial process.



Which is exactly what's happening in Alabama and Georgia and Nebraska and in SCOTUS with _NYSRPA v Bruen_!  You act like you know what's going on in the gun rights scene but you sound like you are speaking from the 1990's . . .



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Otherwise, nonsense such as ‘Constitutional carry’ is a ‘solution’ in search of a problem that doesn’t exist; it’s an example of the aspirational/political second amendment, a bad-faith partisan effort to garner votes and placate the conservative base.



What exact judicial decisions represent your judicial 2nd Amendment?  My consideration of the 2nd Amendment is represented in all SCOTUS 2ndA precedent; are you claiming the now invalid / abrogated by SCOTUS collective right decisions from the lower federal courts?  Given the origin of your theory (Blocher /Winkler) that seems to be the case.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Yes, I was replying to his/her post in general, as in, I'm on their side. Americans use guns for alledged 'self protection'. It's a fucked up gun nation. Are you having a moment?




Europe is more fucked up.....another war on the continent......after the socialists in Europe murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children, and the Russian murdered 25 million...

When are you morons going to wise up and realize that only having the guns in the hands of government agents is never a good idea?


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> The enforcement of the 2nd Amendment is in its infancy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hey....White6....this.....this is why mandatory training and fees are wrong.........


*Mmmmkay . . .  Do you believe panicked Hawaii's proposal for a new concealed carry law is constitutional?  It will make the permit only valid for 6 months and for new and renewals, the state is going to require 22 hours of training with live fire and also require the person carry and deploy a taser before deadly force . . . Are those "regulations" constitutional?*


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, you can keep them and bear them at the house, for protection of you, your family, and your castle or hovel as the case may be.  You should be regulated as to carrying in public.  I agree with most of the law enforcement organizations that have spoken out against it, but went ignored.




This.....as brought up by Abatis....


Reducing the term of a license to carry a handgun from
one year to six months to ensure those permitted are
properly trained at all times; and
(4)  Requiring non—lethal electric guns, also known as
tasers, to be carried when carrying a firearm.
------
a total of at least sixteen hours of
--------
a total of at least two hours of firing training at a firing range and a total of at least four hours of classroom instruction, which may include



			https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2022/bills/SB2800_.pdf
		


I have a friend who works 50-60 hours a week, has a family....can't afford the 16 ours of time needed to get a concealed carry permit in Illinois........

This is how they ban gun ownership by other means...


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Nobody, yet.  Mostly because a would've assailant knows I'm not helpless.  They take one look at me and say, "that white boy's probably strapped.  I ain't fuckin with him".  At that point, my carry piece has done exactly what I need it to do.  That and my situational awareness keeps me out of positions where a bad guy would have the upper hand.
> 
> You?  You've just been lucky up til now...lol


Why does everyday life altercations have to be presumed solvable with a gun?


----------



## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A lot of states supported slavery as well and then Jim crow...


See what I mean.  States make lousy choice at time, supporting really stupid things, like slavery and arming 18 year olds with no training.  Heck, in Rhode island, you can't marry her, but you can screw your sister if she is 16 years old and good with it, with no criminal charges whatsoever.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> And all of us Americans would be very happy if you never cast a shadow on our country.  Even better would be if you would refrain from commenting about us; it has been a long time since we cared what a piss-soaked Brit thought about us.


Have you ever thought of placing your face in a meat grinder and emigrating?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Europe is more fucked up.....another war on the continent......after the socialists in Europe murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children, and the Russian murdered 25 million...
> 
> When are you morons going to wise up and realize that only having the guns in the hands of government agents is never a good idea?


Ah 2aguy, the forum gun nut with gun nut shite. We don't live in Russia, moron.

And Europeans can do whatever they want, we're not part of that dictatorship.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> See what I mean.  States make lousy choice at time, supporting really stupid things, like slavery and arming 18 year olds with no training.  Heck, in Rhode island, you can't marry her, but you can screw your sister if she is 16 years old and good with it, with no criminal charges whatsoever.




And you fail to respond to the fact that Hawaii is trying to make the training requirements so "outrageous," that people will not be able to get through them......

And since you agree that states make lousy choices, you are again simply supporting my position...........

You are for allowing states to make bad decisions against your Right to own and carry a gun......


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Ah 2aguy, the forum gun nut with gun nut shite. We don't live is Russia, moron.




And as the Russians are shot by Ukrainians with rifles and pistols....it just goes right over your tiny head...


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Why does everyday life altercations have to be presumed solvable with a gun?




They don't, and aren't...

Murder, rape, robbery, beatings, stabbings, ethnic cleansing, genocide, foreign invasions are the problems solvable with guns in the hands of good people.....


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> I think they call that deregulating, as they used to have a regulation against it.



Choosing not to restrict lawful citizen action is still exercising the power of regulating.  

The liberty of "constitutional carry" is not extended to all persons living in the state; it is _*STILL*_ unlawful for an illegal alien or those with qualifying criminal convictions or a mentally impaired person or someone dishonorably discharged from the military, etc., etc., etc., to carry a gun for *any* reason.  

That focused attention on those specific persons society has deemed unqualified to exercise the right to bear arms -- as opposed to a generalized unfocused law where *all* desiring to carry for self defense must prove worthiness -- is most certainly exercising regulatory power.

.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And as the Russians are shot by Ukrainians with rifles and pistols....it just goes right over your tiny head...


I would imagine the UK army and the civiliana with shotguns, pistols and rifles would shoot invaders too. See how it works, pillock.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> They don't, and aren't...
> 
> Murder, rape, robbery, beatings, stabbings, ethnic cleansing, genocide, foreign invasions are the problems solvable with guns in the hands of good people.....


You need to see a doctor, you're mentally ill mate.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> I would imagine the UK army and the civiliana with shotguns, pistols and rifles would shoot invaders too. See how it works, pillock.




Shotguns are not long range weapons...rifles are.........and without the U.S., and our rifles,  Brits would be speaking Russian today........


----------



## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This.....
> 
> More than 91 percent of respondents support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or not been deemed psychologically/medically incapable.
> A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent).
> ...


Sounds like no luck getting guns away from gangs in Chicago, so arm everybody, in order for them to have a sporting chance.
Hey, I don't agree, but my state went the same way.  The only advantage to me, is with permit that I can carry in state parks, and of course my permit to carry is valid in most states in the country, while, you had best not be caught carrying in TN if from another state, without a permit.


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Shotguns are not long range weapons...rifles are.........and without the U.S., and our rifles,  Brits would be speaking Russian today........


You mean the 1941 to 1945 war?


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Choosing not to restrict lawful citizen action is still exercising the power of regulating.
> 
> The liberty of "constitutional carry" is not extended to all persons living in the state; it is _*STILL*_ unlawful for an illegal alien or those with qualifying criminal convictions or a mentally impaired person or someone dishonorably discharged from the military, etc., etc., etc., to carry a gun for *any* reason.
> 
> ...




Notice that White6 did not address your Hawaii question.........


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> You mean the 1941 to 1945 war?




And the 77 years after that...you doofus.....the U.S.....and our guns, have kept you European idiots from going to war for 77 years.........

You are welcome.......our guns did that....


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And the 77 years after that...you doofus.....the U.S.....and our guns, have kept you European idiots from going to war for 77 years.........
> 
> You are welcome.......our guns did that....


Many were fighting from 1939, but the world thanks you for your usual late entry. Fucking retards


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Many were fighting from 1939, but the world thanks you for your usual late entry. Fucking retards




We had to step in after you morons allowed the German socialists to kick your asses.........after you disarmed all of your people and made it possible for him to hold your countries........

Switzerland kept that from happening by keeping their guns...you guys gave up your guns and 15 million innocent men, women and children were murdered....


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## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And the 77 years after that...you doofus.....the U.S.....and our guns, have kept you European idiots from going to war for 77 years.........
> 
> You are welcome.......our guns did that....



Whenever a Euroweenie goes on about what they feel about the USA and our guns I used to ask:

*Are you from a country whose ass we saved, or whose ass we kicked?*


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We had to step in after you morons allowed the German socialists to kick your asses.........after you disarmed all of your people and made it possible for him to hold your countries........
> 
> Switzerland kept that from happening by keeping their guns...you guys gave up your guns and 15 million innocent men, women and children were murdered....


No, you're a shit stain on humanity.

You're trying to take a stance and credit for something in the past. You're a displorable *unt of the lowest order. You fucking fraud


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Whenever a Euroweenie goes on about what they feel about the USA and our guns I used to ask:
> 
> *Are you from a country whose ass we saved, or whose ass we kicked?*



This....


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## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> No, you're a shit stain on humanity.




And there we have it....facts, truth and reality.....the cross to the vampire of every leftist in the world....


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And there we have it....facts, truth and reality.....the cross to the vampire of every leftist in the world....


Try again, check my past


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## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Whenever a Euroweenie goes on about what they feel about the USA and our guns I used to ask:
> 
> *Are you from a country whose ass we saved, or whose ass we kicked?*




Yeah.....I am stealing that....thanks....


----------



## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you fail to respond to the fact that Hawaii is trying to make the training requirements so "outrageous," that people will not be able to get through them......
> 
> And since you agree that states make lousy choices, you are again simply supporting my position...........
> 
> You are for allowing states to make bad decisions against your Right to own and carry a gun......


Until I run for legislature (and that ain't happening) I support the laws on the books of the state, (mine included) and continue to have my own considerations and opinions, based on my experience and training.  
Hawaii was a nice place to visit, but I never wanted to live there.  If you don't like it there, MOVE.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Try again, check my past


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Until I run for legislature (and that ain't happening) I support the laws on the books of the state, (mine included) and continue to have my own considerations and opinions, based on my experience and training.
> Hawaii was a nice place to visit, but I never wanted to live there.  If you don't like it there, MOVE.




And you don't answer the question....since it shows that what I said is correct.....leftists will use any mandatory training requirements as a way to ban gun ownership....Hawaii proves this point quite well.....and if they do it, all the other leftists will do it state by state....making the 2nd Amendment non-existent, just like in Mexico...


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


>


You guys had to get the French to win Independence because your arses were getting whipped by the British. And here's you trying to fucking man up. You fucking pussy fraud.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Why does everyday life altercations have to be presumed solvable with a gun?


I'm not describing an "everyday life altercation".  I'm describing an attack on the lives of my family, or my life, or another person's life.

All the years I've either had a gun truck, or a side piece, I've had to pull it once.  A dude was beating the shit out of his girlfriend through the window of her car.  I stuck the muzzle in his face, he backed up, that gave her time to haul ass.  Knowing I had the upper hand, he retreated.

You?  You would have just sat back and watched, hoping she survived.


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## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Choosing not to restrict lawful citizen action is still exercising the power of regulating.
> 
> The liberty of "constitutional carry" is not extended to all persons living in the state; it is _*STILL*_ unlawful for an illegal alien or those with qualifying criminal convictions or a mentally impaired person or someone dishonorably discharged from the military, etc., etc., etc., to carry a gun for *any* reason.
> 
> ...


I understand your point, but you will not get me to think it for the best to have every 18 year old jack-off carrying concealed weapons on the street.


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> I'm not describing an "everyday life altercation".  I'm describing an attack on the lives of my family, or my life, or another person's life.
> 
> All the years I've either had a gun truck, or a side piece, I've had to pull it once.  A dude was beating the shit out of his girlfriend through the window of her car.  I stuck the muzzle in his face, he backed up, that gave her time to haul ass.  Knowing I had the upper hand, he retreated.
> 
> You?  You would have just sat back and watched, hoping she survived.


Oh good grief, another dramatist.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Oh good grief, another dramatist.


That's...what did you call it?..."reality"?...hmm?

For the regular folks, anyway.  Maybe not for you in your fancy crib in Knightsbridge, West Brompton, or Kensington, or whatever high-falutin neighborhood you live in where the cops are quick to shoo away the riff-raff.

I guess you can't see the real world because of that tall cotton you shit in...lol


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> That's...what did you call it?..."reality"?...hmm?
> 
> For the regular folks, anyway.  Maybe not for you in your fancy crib in Knightsbridge, West Brompton, or Kensington, or whatever high-falutin neighborhood you live in where the cops are quick to shoo away the riff-raff.
> 
> I guess you can't see the real world because of that tall cotton you shit in...lol


Try Southern Scotland.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Try Southern Scotland.


You best not be from Clan Donnachaidh, because you're an embarrassment to the rest of us...lol


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> You best not be from Clan Donnachaidh, because you're an embarrassment to the rest of us...lol


Don't venture out of the US, sounds like you won't cope with real life. You embarrassing pussy.


----------



## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This....



It wasn't really my saying, it was may Dad's.  

He was in the 101st Airborne hitting all the wonderful touristy spots of Europe . . . 







My biggest regret was not going with him to see Saving Private Ryan when he asked me.  I was selfish and stupid, worried that I couldn't stay unemotional watching it.   He died in early 1999.


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## Abatis (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> I understand your point, but you will not get me to think it for the best to have every 18 year old jack-off carrying concealed weapons on the street.



I don't think many constitutional carry states allows 18 year olds to carry without a permit.  Most (all?) require one to be 21 to exercise permitless carry.


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## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you don't answer the question....since it shows that what I said is correct.....leftists will use any mandatory training requirements as a way to ban gun ownership....Hawaii proves this point quite well.....and if they do it, all the other leftists will do it state by state....making the 2nd Amendment non-existent, just like in Mexico...


As I said previously the far left is too afraid of guns, while the far right is to favorable to any guns, but only _*Possibly*_ too paranoid about gun banning or confiscation. I freely admit, you are entitled to your opinion and, maybe the far left would if they could, though I don't think it would fly, so I cannot get the requisite level of paranoia over the idea, being raised, trained with weapons from an early age, and living in a deep red state that will never have to worry about it, and of course carrying a permit and a weapon, almost daily, myself.


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## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> You guys had to get the French to win Independence because your arses were getting whipped by the British. And here's you trying to fucking man up. You fucking pussy fraud.




Yeah......in 1776...........when we were just a colony..............you idiot.....you had to be saved twice........in modern times....


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> As I said previously the far left is too afraid of guns, while the far right is to favorable to any guns, but only _*Possibly*_ too paranoid about gun banning or confiscation. I freely admit, you are entitled to your opinion and, maybe the far left would if they could, though I don't think it would fly, so I cannot get the requisite level of paranoia over the idea, being raised, trained with weapons from an early age, and living in a deep red state that will never have to worry about it, and of course carrying a permit and a weapon, almost daily, myself.




Again....Hawaii is pushing exactly what you support...........22 hours of training, every 6 months...paying a fee every 6 months......yeah, that won't keep normal people from being able to carry guns.....


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Don't venture out of the US, sounds like you cope with real life. You embarrassing pussy.


Dont worry.  I'm not going allow myself to be fodder for your beloved leaders.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Again....Hawaii is pushing exactly what you support...........22 hours of training, every 6 months...paying a fee every 6 months......yeah, that won't keep normal people from being able to carry guns.....


And the training isn't free


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## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Again....Hawaii is pushing exactly what you support...........22 hours of training, every 6 months...paying a fee every 6 months......yeah, that won't keep normal people from being able to carry guns.....


That is indeed dumb.  I never supported 22 hours every 6 months, never once said it and you know it, so stop being a lying nut ball as if you are supporting your position.  You aren't helping your argument by gross lying in support of it. Why do you people stoop so low?  It makes you look like lying idiots, as if nobody will notice.


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## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah......in 1776...........when we were just a colony..............you idiot.....you had to be saved twice........in modern times....


And you can't even pronounce Worcestershire sauce. Fucking bellend.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Dont worry.  I'm not going allow myself to be fodder for your beloved leaders.


Thank fuck.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Why do you people stoop so low? It makes you look like lying idiots, as if nobody will notice.


That’s what conservatives do, that’s who conservatives are – they’re completely dishonest; all they have are lies.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Whenever a Euroweenie goes on about what they feel about the USA and our guns I used to ask:
> 
> *Are you from a country whose ass we saved, or whose ass we kicked?*


That’s a question both ridiculous and irrelevant.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> That is indeed dumb.  I never supported 22 hours every 6 months, never once said it and you know it, so stop being a lying nut ball as if you are supporting your position.  You aren't helping your argument by gross lying in support of it. Why do you people stoop so low?  It makes you look like lying idiots, as if nobody will notice.



You support mandatory training to Carrey a gun for self defense……that support allows them to push this nonsense.  They show over and over that they will take any law on guns and use it in ways you guys never expected…::.you don’t understand them, we do.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Mar 12, 2022)

White 6 said:


> Until I run for legislature (and that ain't happening) I support the laws on the books of the state, (mine included) and continue to have my own considerations and opinions, based on my experience and training.
> Hawaii was a nice place to visit, but I never wanted to live there.  If you don't like it there, MOVE.


States have the right to regulate firearms as they see fit consistent with Second Amendment case law.

As with all laws, firearm regulatory measures are presumed to be Constitutional until the courts rule otherwise.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Whenever a Euroweenie goes on about what they feel about the USA and our guns I used to ask:
> 
> *Are you from a country whose ass we saved, or whose ass we kicked?*


No, you have an inferior personality that requires a twist on historical events to bolster your fragile ego because you are inept in life.

An American gun nut is a strange breed, well, retarded. The majority of countries have guns, yet you retards believe you're the only ones. I've not witnessed the American education system, but it's obviously letting you guys down, badly.

And when you entered WWII late, you took credit for winning it. That's how low your lives are, below shit rock bottom. But to patch your shitness, you whoop and slap each other silly.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah......in 1776...........when we were just a colony..............you idiot.....you had to be saved twice........in modern times....


Fuck me, the formation of England was officially cemented on 12 July 927 by King Athelstan, and with our history, you're getting an erection over 1776. You need to get out more instead of whacking off in front of PornHub.


----------



## White 6 (Mar 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You support mandatory training to Carrey a gun for self defense……that support allows them to push this nonsense.  They show over and over that they will take any law on guns and use it in ways you guys never expected…::.you don’t understand them, we do.


Ooooooh, thank you, thank you for your supposed clairvoyance, omniscience and omnipresence.  Remember, I am in Tennessee.  Nobody talking about taking them away here.


----------



## Golfing Gator (Mar 12, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Nobody, yet.  Mostly because a would've assailant knows I'm not helpless.  They take one look at me and say, "that white boy's probably strapped.  I ain't fuckin with him".  At that point, my carry piece has done exactly what I need it to do.  That and my situational awareness keeps me out of positions where a bad guy would have the upper hand.
> 
> You?  You've just been lucky up til now...lol



and the cannon I put in my front yard ahs stopped all pirate attacks since I put it there.


----------



## JGalt (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Who's attacked you in your lifetime, excluding the playground at school.
> 
> I have to survive what?
> 
> Sorry for injecting reality.



Who's going to attack you in your lifetime, excluding the Negros who beat you up on the playground at school and stole the lunch money your mommie gave you?

You can't even legally own a firearm on your floating turd of an island off the coast of France.

Reality sucks, doesn't it?


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Fuck me, the formation of England was officially cemented on 12 July 927 by King Athelstan, and with our history, you're getting an erection over 1776. You need to get out more instead of whacking off in front of PornHub.




Dipshit...you brought it up.....


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 12, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> No, you have an inferior personality that requires a twist on historical events to bolster your fragile ego because you are inept in life.
> 
> An American gun nut is a strange breed, well, retarded. The majority of countries have guns, yet you retards believe you're the only ones. I've not witnessed the American education system, but it's obviously letting you guys down, badly.
> 
> And when you entered WWII late, you took credit for winning it. That's how low your lives are, below shit rock bottom. But to patch your shitness, you whoop and slap each other silly.




We take a large part of the credit because you morons were losing to the German socialists at the time......had we not stepped up and taken up the effort, you and the rest of Europe would be speaking German....


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Mar 12, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> and the cannon I put in my front yard ahs stopped all pirate attacks since I put it there.


I bet it makes burglars think twice, too.  Worked for my dad.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> That’s what conservatives do, that’s who conservatives are – they’re completely dishonest; all they have are lies.


Oh,the irony.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Mar 12, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> As with all laws, firearm regulatory measures are presumed to be Constitutional until the courts rule otherwise


Funny how you don't mention this when the TX abortion law comes up.
Even when people ask you why you believe that law to be constitutional.


----------



## Abatis (Mar 13, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> That’s a question both ridiculous and irrelevant.



What's ridiculous is that you ignore messages to *you*, directly replying and/or rebutting incorrect or just plain dumb statements _*you*_ made about the Constitution and rights and the law, and instead *you* chose to make irrelevant comments about something directed to someone else. 

That's called confession by projection.  You pretend you are capable of making reasoned, correct argument and then display total intellectual paralysis when you are challenged to defend your stupidity.

Such as this . . . 



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> *As with all laws*, firearm regulatory measures are presumed to be Constitutional until the courts rule otherwise.



That is flat wrong.  

Fundamental rights demand a higher deference from legislatures and judges, when a law burdens / implicates protected conduct and/or challenged as violative of a fundamental right, judges apply strict scrutiny.

Strict scrutiny begins with the presumption that the law at issue is unconstitutional.

The right to keep and bear arms for self defense has been deemed a fundamental right; of course the Court (with justly earned criticism from both left and right) have declined setting a firm standard to apply the 2ndA to law.  I don't think we will be waiting much longer.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 13, 2022)

Abatis said:


> What's ridiculous is that you ignore messages to *you*, directly replying and/or rebutting incorrect or just plain dumb statements _*you*_ made about the Constitution and rights and the law, and instead *you* chose to make irrelevant comments about something directed to someone else.
> 
> That's called confession by projection.  You pretend you are capable of making reasoned, correct argument and then display total intellectual paralysis when you are challenged to defend your stupidity.
> 
> ...




I really, really hope Justice Thomas gets to write that opinion....I think Bush's gift to the left....Justice Roberts, will take the opinion and water it down to pointlessness again....


----------



## Jarlaxle (Mar 13, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Apples and oranges, and one that avoids the point I made.
> A proper analogy is for a state to require permit before a person can stand on a street corner with a sign that says "Jesus Saves".
> 
> Why do you not understand the state does not have standing to issue as permit for the basic exercise of a right?


He's a Fudd.


----------



## Abatis (Mar 13, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I really, really hope Justice Thomas gets to write that opinion....I think Bush's gift to the left....Justice Roberts, will take the opinion and water it down to pointlessness again....



I hoped for Thomas too but I doubt it will be him.  Looking the authorship of the recent published opinions, it is less likely those Justices would be writing such a significant opinion as _NYSRPA_ . . . Thomas wrote _Tsarnaev v US_ issued on March 4th.

I'm now hoping for Kavanaugh, given his advocacy for using "text, informed by history and tradition" in his dissent in _Heller II_, as the interpretive doctrine for RKBA cases.


----------



## 2aguy (Mar 14, 2022)

Abatis said:


> I hoped for Thomas too but I doubt it will be him.  Looking the authorship of the recent published opinions, it is less likely those Justices would be writing such a significant opinion as _NYSRPA_ . . . Thomas wrote _Tsarnaev v US_ issued on March 4th.
> 
> I'm now hoping for Kavanaugh, given his advocacy for using "text, informed by history and tradition" in his dissent in _Heller II_, as the interpretive doctrine for RKBA cases.




Yeah.....I don't put any faith in Kavanaugh, but I guess any non-leftist is better than Roberts......It is the best we can hope for...


----------

