# Want Education Reform? Start With Higher Ed



## chanel (Mar 9, 2011)

> The fat years that higher ed has enjoyed over the last two decades  with *spending up 74% per student since 1991 * have obscured the fact that the system is badly broken. Conservatives have tended to focus on the failings of K-12, but higher ed is both more wasteful and more dysfunctional. Consider:
> 
> * Left-wing ideologues are firmly in control of the humanities and liberal arts.
> 
> ...



Pajamas Media » Want Education Reform? Start With Higher Ed

Interesting ideas.  Comments?


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## California Girl (Mar 9, 2011)

Also, if they taught properly and focused on learning.... they could cut the length of time it takes to get a degree, thereby reducing the cost for students. Radical, I know, but I'm a believer in making it cheaper, and more accessible for students.


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## Annie (Mar 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> > The fat years that higher ed has enjoyed over the last two decades  with *spending up 74% per student since 1991 * have obscured the fact that the system is badly broken. Conservatives have tended to focus on the failings of K-12, but higher ed is both more wasteful and more dysfunctional. Consider:
> >
> > * Left-wing ideologues are firmly in control of the humanities and liberal arts.
> >
> ...



I agree in principle, but would seriously focus on  the problems with education at the education departments at universities. So many of those that choose education for their majors are non-rigorous thinkers themselves. Like the department they enroll in, critical thinking is not required, indeed it's often like a rep circle. 

Whatever is the current 'new fad' professors incorporate into the methodologies and students dutifully write them into their notes, then into their lesson plans. Of course textbooks written according to the parameters of the new fads will be churned out, all alternative methods dumped. When scores drop, parents and school boards will wonder at the connections, complain, then demand change. The university professors writing the books, with their TA's doing most of the work and convinced that the new fad is just 'the best', will claim that indeed the texts contain the new fad, but that the underlying concepts along with traditional methods are still there. 

Eventually new texts will come out, throwing in some of the old examples, without any explanation and often not in the relevant section of the concept it exemplifies. 

See new math; whole language; the new, new math (often called 'fuzzy math'). It's a nice gig for the professors, professors in training, and textbook companies.


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## editec (Mar 9, 2011)

Odd that our US College and university system, -- a system that is the envy of the rest of the world -- is thought to be a faulure.

Is this the new line the GOP is telling you guys, now?


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## Modbert (Mar 9, 2011)

It's difficult to take seriously an article that starts with "Left-wing ideologues are firmly in control of the humanities and liberal arts" and that is from Pajamas Media.

But of course, the solution is religious colleges!



> Theres a simple solution to all four of these problems: return to the fundamental principles of competition and free choice. Let students vote with their feet. There are many fine private and religious colleges in Texas (Baylor, University of Dallas, Houston Baptist, and University of St. Thomas, among others)* that do a great job of focusing on the education of undergraduates and that treat our American and Judeo-Christian heritage with respect.*



Their idea for "real competition and effective student choice" is just begging to be misused.

Of course, we know for-profit colleges (the definition of competition) don't commit fraud:

For-profit school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> For-profit higher education in the U.S. has been the focus of concern regarding business practices. In August 2010, the Government Accountability Office reported on an investigation randomly sampled student-recruiting practices of several for-profit institutions. Investigators who posed as prospective students documented deceptive recruiting practices, including misleading information about costs and potential future earnings. They also reported that some recruiters had urged them to provide false information on applications for financial aid.[22]
> 
> *Out of the 15 sampled, all of the institutions were found to have engaged in deceptive practices*, improperly promising unrealistically high pay for graduating students, and four engaged in outright fraud, per a GAO report released on the August 4, 2010 Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee hearing. Examples of misconduct include:





> offering commissions to admissions officers,
> employing deceptive marketing tactics by refusing to disclose total tuition cost to prospective students before signing a binding agreement,
> lying about accreditation,
> encouraging outright fraud by enticing students to take out student loans even when the applicant had $250,000 in savings,
> ...





> *It was found that 14 out of 15 times, the tuition at a for-profit sample was more expensive than its public counterpart, and 11 out of 15 times, it was more expensive than the private counterpart*. Examples of the disparity in full tuition per program include: $14,000 for a certificate at the for-profit institution, when the same diploma cost $500 at a public college; $38,000 for an Associate's at the for-profit institution, when the comparable program at the public college cost $5,000; $61,000 for a Bachelor's at the for-profit institution, compared to $36,000 for the same degree at the public college.[24]


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## chanel (Mar 9, 2011)

It's funny you say that. When I was in grad school, I was always the one the professors looked to when discussing whole language, new math, cooperative learning, multiculturalism, inclusion, etc because they knew I would challenge those theories that made no sense.  I would get a wink and a nod from many of the traditionalists. And as we've seen, whole language has hurt an entire generation of kids.

But I'm glad people are discussing this issue. College tuition has become unaffordable to people and students are being stuck with debt for a worthless education. It can be a scam of enormous proportions. Let the buyer beware.


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## WorldWatcher (Mar 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> It's funny you say that. When I was in grad school, I was always the one the professors looked to...














True, but the real question is were they looking to you because of your brains, maybe it was the low cut top or short skirt.



Ahhh, college - Good Times.  Chicks dig Navy guys in uniform.  



>>>>>


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## Modbert (Mar 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> It's funny you say that. When I was in grad school, I was always the one the professors looked to when discussing whole language, new math, cooperative learning, multiculturalism, inclusion, etc because they knew I would challenge those theories that made no sense.  I would get a wink and a nod from many of the traditionalists. And as we've seen, whole language has hurt an entire generation of kids.
> 
> But I'm glad people are discussing this issue. College tuition has become unaffordable to people and students are being stuck with debt for a worthless education. It can be a scam of enormous proportions. Let the buyer beware.



Well this is what happens when you have state governments who are putting more and more on the burden of college tuition on the student. College is once again becoming something that only the rich can partake in, taking a step back to a previous generation.

However, what I don't get is the "worthless education" line. Is it because you consider their major useless? I'm pretty sure majors that are considered "useless" would not be gone if the debt responsibility was shifted completely to the student. No, what will happen however is that everybody goes to school for the same five majors. Why? Because the cost of college will be so high that will need a job that will be able to pay off said loans. And what will eventually happen there is those five job markets will dry up because everybody went into those fields.


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## editec (Mar 9, 2011)

Education is one of the few areas of life where the cost have actually risen even faster than health care.

So there definitely is a problem in higher education, but it's not the curricula, it's in the cost of providing it.

And my guess is that those cost are mostly coming at schools from higher expenses in heating and cooling the buildings, providing health care insurance for their staff and other expenses no directly associated with providing education.

School are responding by cutting back on what courses they offer, not giving professors full time jobs or tenure (the _real _tenure, not the k-12 tenure) and of course jacking up prices.

What percentage of American families can afford $35,000 a year to send their kids to university?

2%?


Hell folks _a community college in Seattle_ costs like $12,000 a year, now. And that is ONLY tuition, too.

I mean who the hell has that kind of dough laying around to send their kid off to college?

40 years of declining purchasing power for the working classes, even as the cost of higher ED was rising at rates of 10%+ year after year, and guess what?

Our kids cannot afford to get that education they need to compete in tomorrow's working world.

But meanwhile this nation can afford any amount for EMPIRE BUILDING?

At $50,000 per year for college, every BILLION bucks could send 20,000 students to college.

Something to put this all in perspective?

*$56.3 billion fiscal year 2011 Homeland Security request: (that's 1,126, 000 student tuitions @ $50 k) *

*$895 billion requested in the FY 2011 DoD budget ( That's 17,900,000 student tuitions @$50K) *

Now obviously we need a military and we also need something like HSA.

But the above does give us _some indication_ of the OPPORTUNITY COSTS of maintaining EMPIRE.


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## WorldWatcher (Mar 9, 2011)

editec said:


> Education is one of the few areas of life where the cost have actually risen even faster than health care.
> 
> So there definitely is a problem in higher education, but it's not the curricula, it's in the cost of providing it.
> 
> ...




Total cost of attendance (TCA) varies greatly by (a) school and (b) local or far away.

For example TCA for an in-state Student at the University of Virginia is around $23,000.  My daughter was competitive at Cornell & Stanford and I thank heaven she didn't get in there as costs were in the neighborhood of $40,000-$60,000 PER YEAR.

The very best thing parents can do to insulate themselves from SOME of those costs is to find out if your State has a Pre-paid Education Program (PEP), which is different then a 429 College Savings Program.  With a pre-paid program you have a contract with the state to purchase a set amount of time in terms of tuition.  When your kids enter a State University, their tuition is paid for that time period.  A 429 plan acts more like a 401K where you deposit money into a tax free investment account and then draw that money out later for school.

With two children that would be in college we established two PEP account, one for each and paid $100 a month (each) for 2-years at a University.  Over the course of about 10 years.  When the kids graduated high school they each had 2 years at a university paid for.  Our son stayed local (lived at home) and did a 2-by-2 program with a Community College.  He stretched his 2-years at a University to 3.5-years of education because the lower cost of the community college stretched out the time.  Since he works part-time he will graduate debt free.  Our daughter on the other hand wanted to "full university experience" so she attends college away from home.  She understands the financial situation and choose to incur student loans, that she will have to pay back in the future.  But she has also worked very hard through a part-time job and through scholarships to keep those loan costs down.  With the scholarships she will probably have money left in the account when she graduates.  She can either draw it out or apply it toward a graduate degree.



>>>>


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## Ravi (Mar 9, 2011)

Liberals ate my homework.


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## Anachronism (Mar 9, 2011)

Very interesting. I'm a 1992 high school graduate and I went to a private college to get my Associate of Science degree in Computer Aided Drafting (CADD). At that time, one of the selling points of that particular university was its "upside down" curriculum. This meant that you were immediately immersed in your Major right from the start. My first college class ever was an 8am M-Th hardboard drafting class. There was no "general studies" path. The number of classes not directly focused on your major was very small. There were no humanities electives or unnecessary extraneous requirements. Everything was focused on your major. 

Additionally, there was very little at the school in general that wasn't focused on academics. Few sports (all at the Division III level); no Greek society; not a lot of intermural or extracurricular activities. Those of us who lived on campus understood that there were strict rules in the dorms and failure to abide by them means immediate expulsion not only from the dorm, but from school. 

It was made very clear to you from the moment you started talking to these people that if you didn't know what you wanted to do, and weren't willing to do the work without necessarily having the "fun" that most people associated with college, that Johnson & Wales University was NOT the place for you. I LOVED IT. 

Now, I wouldn't suggest that anyone who actually has an interest in their education even consider going there. The school has grown too large. It has turned into as much of a Liberal Arts machine as every other college out there these days. Rules and regulations have been reduced. Additional humanities and unnecessary elective/non-major courses have been added to the curriculum. The entire concept of the school when I went there has been flushed down the toilet.

"So what? Who cares?".... you say. We should all care because what has happened at JWU is what is happening everywhere. The school decided to expand. To expand it needed money. To get more money they decided to make it easier to get in, harder to get thrown out, and to add more requirements to keep you there longer in order to continue milking you for more cash.


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## midcan5 (Mar 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> Interesting ideas.  Comments?



There is an idea there?  I must have missed it. The usual right wing jargon is all I see, and considering as Editec wrote, our colleges are among the best in the world what is it you want? If we were to provide less expensive education who would pay? Our leaders like bombs more than books. Bombs provide profits and election money, books provide an educated citizenry which no politician wants -  they may actually examine the issues carefully. Why is the right wing, the conservatives, and the republicans, and all combinations of above, focused on education? Anyone know.  And yes, we definitely need more liberal arts and humanities education, the country lost its soul to greed sometime in the eighties. Time we thought about why.

The author noted below, gives an excellent analysis of contemporary society for those genuinely interested in ideas and not slogans. 

"For anyone born after 1945, the welfare state and its institutions were not a solution to earlier dilemmas: they were simply the normal conditions of life - and more than a little dull.  The baby boomers, entering university in the mid sixties, had only ever known the world of improving life chances, generous medical and educational services, optimistic prospects of a upward social mobility and - perhaps above all - an indefinable but ubiquitous sense of security. The goals of an earlier generation of reformers were no longer of interest to their successors. On the contrary they were increasingly perceived as restrictions upon the self-expression and freedom of the individual." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land' [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Ill-Fares-Land-Tony-Judt/dp/1594202761/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8]Amazon.com: Ill Fares the Land (9781594202766): Tony Judt: Books[/ame]


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## psikeyhackr (Mar 9, 2011)

If grade school and high school were done properly how many people would not need to go to college.

What is wrong with a National Recommended Reading List?  

Going into debt for college just give the employers another hook.  Gotta go to work to pay for school that enabled me to go to work.  What would debt free sell educated people do for the economy?

psik


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## chanel (Mar 9, 2011)

Modbert said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > It's funny you say that. When I was in grad school, I was always the one the professors looked to when discussing whole language, new math, cooperative learning, multiculturalism, inclusion, etc because they knew I would challenge those theories that made no sense.  I would get a wink and a nod from many of the traditionalists. And as we've seen, whole language has hurt an entire generation of kids.
> ...




States are putting more of the burden on both the student and the taxpayer.  74% increase in 20 years.

And this is what I consider a "worthless education".



> In Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses, two authors present a study that followed 2,300 students at 24 universities over the course of four years. The study measured both the amount that students improved in terms of critical thinking and writing skills, in addition to how much they studied and how many papers they wrote for their courses.
> 
> Richard Arum, a co-author of the book and a professor of sociology at New York University, tells NPR's Steve Inskeep that the fact that more than a third of students showed no improvement in critical thinking skills after four years at a university was cause for concern.
> 
> As policymakers champion increasing access and improving graduation rates, it is appropriate to ask: How much are students actually learning in contemporary higher education? The answer for many undergraduates, we have concluded, is not much.



A Lack Of Rigor Leaves Students 'Adrift' In College : NPR


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## midcan5 (Mar 9, 2011)

If humans lose what it means to be human, they will cease being humans and will be easily managed robots, something we see today in America, or brutes, something we see also in America today. But these crazies while growing are still small, a humanistic education of civic responsibility will keep it small. 

"There is no test of the good society so clear, so decisive, as its willingness to tax - to forgo private income, expenditures and the expensively cultivated superfluities of private consumption - in order to develop and sustain a strong educational system for all its citizens.  The economic rewards of so doing are not in doubt. Nor the political gains.  But the true reward is in the larger, deeper, better life for everyone that only education provides."  John Kenneth Galbraith, 'The Good Society'

"*Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted.* The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." 

"*At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end.* It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org


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## rdean (Mar 9, 2011)

Yea, those darn liberals.  They turned American education into the greatest bunch of universities and colleges in the world.   Oh, but they really tore down the good colleges.  

So say right wingers.  Then you look at conservative right wing colleges in the south and midwest.  The "best" ones are a measly Tier four.  Only teach "natural science", you know, bees pollinate flowers and other simple shit.

The number of right winger top colleges is probably about 6%.  On a good day.

Unless what we need is more of that crappy right wing Christian music.  Now that is real art.  Performance art.  The kind everyone complains about.


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## rdean (Mar 9, 2011)

I love right winger colleges.  Especially when they discuss "science".  Humor always brightens my day.


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## chanel (Mar 10, 2011)

> Overall, though, the study found that there has been a *50 percent decline in the number of hours a student spends studying *and preparing for classes from several decades ago.
> 
> "If you go out and talk to college freshmen today, they tell you something very interesting," Arum says. "Many of them will say the following: 'I thought college and university was going to be harder than high school, and my gosh,* it turned out it's easier.' *"



A Lack Of Rigor Leaves Students 'Adrift' In College : NPR

Obviously rdean is a product of an incomplete education.

Deanie - why don't you stick to talking about subjects you know about?  Like weed for instance.


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## psikeyhackr (Mar 10, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> If humans lose what it means to be human, they will cease being humans and will be easily managed robots, something we see today in America, or brutes, something we see also in America today. But these crazies while growing are still small, a humanistic education of civic responsibility will keep it small.



And who set the standard for what being human was in the first place?

psik


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## rdean (Mar 10, 2011)

chanel said:


> > Overall, though, the study found that there has been a *50 percent decline in the number of hours a student spends studying *and preparing for classes from several decades ago.
> >
> > "If you go out and talk to college freshmen today, they tell you something very interesting," Arum says. "Many of them will say the following: 'I thought college and university was going to be harder than high school, and my gosh,* it turned out it's easier.' *"
> 
> ...



Depends on what you study.  One physics class I took had a measly 6 students in it.  Calculus 1 had more than 40, Calculus 2 had less than 20 and Calculus 3 had a measly 10.

I took a "management class" that had to be held in an overflowing forum.  An accounting class was in three standard size rooms with the accordion dividers moved back.  

Everyone want's to be a "manager" or "handle money".  

Then you go to right wing colleges and you get "natural science".  There is a reason the greatest universities and research centers in the world are in "liberal" states.  Right wingers may hate that, but when you push "Noah's Ark" and "Adam and Eve", what can you expect?


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## chanel (Mar 11, 2011)

As you stated, there are very few "rightwing colleges" and I would love to see your stats on how many people majored in Noah's Ark.  Do you have any?

There are uber liberal schools that teach Lady Gaga and give dildo demonstrations.  Is that any more useful than Adam and Eve?

What would be really refreshing is if colleges allowed a multitude of differing opinions, because that is how we come to the truth.  But truth seems to be underrated these days.

When I attended the orientation at Catholic University, the president stated "We are not a liberal college.  We are not a conservative college.  We are an unapologetically Catholic college".  That of course, is B.S.  With the exception of the abortion issue, my son's professors, and nearly all guest speakers were lefties.


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## The.Mon (Jan 9, 2012)

Damn woman, why don't you *quit nagging* and do something about it?

Right-Wingers are the worst debaters because all they do is "get mad" and bring their energy-draining emotions into the whole thing.  Who comes to mind?  Since I'm honestly not being sexist, how about Limbaugh, The Kentucky Fried Chicken Monster?

I find it interesting how it seems Liberals use their intellect and sarcastic humor to debate, while the other side seems to use an increased volume of voice and somehow are so annoying, you just want to give up and get the away from them.  I believe they have some kind of protective metal shield over their ear (yes, it's actually metal), that "pings" anything you say back... like a bat using radar, they know it's coming.

*QUITYERBITCHING.* Is it me, or am I the only one who feels like and am tired of all of the Right-Wingers constantly blaming all the "liberals" for all of their problems?  Even stuff that happened in elementary school. You guys, Obama did NOT call you a tard box and then everyone pointed and laughed at you and that made you cry and it hurt you so much. It was the OTHER black kid.

And yes, I already have an answer (my own idea; never heard it from anyone else, either) to your deeply concerned issue of higher education. However, I'm almost done with mine and frankly, there's not much I could do if I tried or ....wanted to--it would only make younger generations 10x more advanced when entering our new knowledge economy and I really don't prefer competition. It's non-productive (from my standpoint)--I have too many other things to do than have to take the time out to beat someone down everyday at work.


Sayonara


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## daveman (Jan 9, 2012)

The.Mon said:


> I find it interesting how it seems Liberals use their intellect and sarcastic humor to debate, while the other side seems to use an increased volume of voice and somehow are so annoying, you just want to give up and get the away from them.


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## madasheck (Jan 9, 2012)

The.Mon said:


> I find it interesting how it seems Liberals use their intellect and sarcastic humor to debate, while the other side seems to use an increased volume of voice and somehow are so annoying, you just want to give up and get the away from them.  I believe they have some kind of protective metal shield over their ear (yes, it's actually metal), that "pings" anything you say back... like a bat using radar, they know it's coming.



You're giving them way too much credit.


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## HUGGY (Jan 9, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YitxdRJcXiU&feature=related]Ed, Edd &#39;n Eddy Highschool - EDD IS HERE! - YouTube[/ame]


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## chanel (Jan 10, 2012)

Hey - why don't we lower the standards and increase aid?  "College for All"!  



> New moms and dads with visions of Ivy League degrees dancing in their heads should be prepared to face a bill of $422,320 in todays dollars if Junior heads off to one the countrys priciest colleges as a member of the class of 2034.
> 
> If college costs keep rising as they have for the last three decades, the inflation-adjusted price of four years of tuition alone will more than double at private colleges and nearly triple at public universities by the time a baby born this year is ready to enroll, an analysis by The Daily shows.



FUTURE SHOCK - WWW.THEDAILY.COM


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## editec (Jan 10, 2012)

chanel said:


> > The fat years that higher ed has enjoyed over the last two decades  with *spending up 74% per student since 1991 * have obscured the fact that the system is badly broken. Conservatives have tended to focus on the failings of K-12, but higher ed is both more wasteful and more dysfunctional. Consider:
> >
> > * Left-wing ideologues are firmly in control of the humanities and liberal arts.
> >
> ...


 
Yeah I have a comment.

Education without the humanities isn't really getting an education...it's getting job training.

Now that's perfectly fine if the whole point of education is to make people ideal candidates for the corporate state.

But it is a terrible way to educate citizens of a democratic republic.


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## rdean (Jan 10, 2012)

chanel said:


> > The fat years that higher ed has enjoyed over the last two decades  with *spending up 74% per student since 1991 * have obscured the fact that the system is badly broken. Conservatives have tended to focus on the failings of K-12, but higher ed is both more wasteful and more dysfunctional. Consider:
> >
> > * *Left-wing ideologues are firmly in control of the humanities and liberal arts.*
> >
> ...



Don't forget science.  We need to get that "left wing" bias out of science and add "God".


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## chanel (Jan 10, 2012)

editec said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > > The fat years that higher ed has enjoyed over the last two decades  with *spending up 74% per student since 1991 * have obscured the fact that the system is badly broken. Conservatives have tended to focus on the failings of K-12, but higher ed is both more wasteful and more dysfunctional. Consider:
> ...



"Job Training" should not be the sole purpose of an education, but do you think the students know this?  Do you think they should be paying $40K a year to be "better citizens"?   

Have they have been duped into thinking they deserve better than a low paying entry level job?  

Colleges prepare specialists to do things and they prepare students simply to think  But buyer beware.  No one would tell a college freshman that there's a good chance they may be a very well-educated/debt-ridden waiter.


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## chanel (Feb 7, 2012)

> At Florida State University in Tallahassee Monday morning Vice President Joe Biden responded to a student stating that, "...artificially increasing availability of student loans is at least partially responsible for rising tuition costs..." Biden admitted that government subsidies offsetting the power of the free market have contributed to the increase in college tuition.



The inconvenient truth comes out.  I thought they muzzled Mr. Biden.

Video at the link.

Breitbart.tv » Biden: Government Subsidies Have Increased College Tuition


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## jillian (Feb 7, 2012)

chanel said:


> > The fat years that higher ed has enjoyed over the last two decades  with *spending up 74% per student since 1991 * have obscured the fact that the system is badly broken. Conservatives have tended to focus on the failings of K-12, but higher ed is both more wasteful and more dysfunctional. Consider:
> >
> > * Left-wing ideologues are firmly in control of the humanities and liberal arts.
> >
> ...



comments? yeah. you should probably stop reading things like "pajamas media" that talks about "leftwing ideologues".

that's kind of a hint that you're not getting anything worth reading.


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## editec (Feb 7, 2012)

chanel said:


> > The fat years that higher ed has enjoyed over the last two decades  with *spending up 74% per student since 1991 * have obscured the fact that the system is badly broken. Conservatives have tended to focus on the failings of K-12, but higher ed is both more wasteful and more dysfunctional. Consider:
> >
> > * Left-wing ideologues are firmly in control of the humanities and liberal arts.
> >
> ...


 
Speaking as a former high school teacher I have to tell you that educational reform is needed at the k-12 grade school levels.

Of course doing that before we reform our society is largely an exercise in fultility.


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