# "The Obamacare implosion is worse than you think"



## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.

Marc Thiessen: The Obamacare implosion is worse than you think - The Washington Post


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## boedicca (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm hoping this is finally the moment when Reactionary Liberalism totally Jumps The Shark.


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## Pennywise (Oct 15, 2013)

when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.


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## Moonglow (Oct 15, 2013)

I've always liked being self employed myself.


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## g5000 (Oct 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> 
> Marc Thiessen: The Obamacare implosion is worse than you think - The Washington Post



From the opinion piece:



> Plans with the least expensive monthly premiums &#8212; highlighted by state and federal officials as proof the new law will keep costs low for consumers &#8212; have deductibles as high as $6,350 for individuals and $12,700 for families.&#8221; Even with federal subsidies, few Americans will bother to buy insurance with a $4,000 to $12,700 deductible &#8212; and millions won&#8217;t even be eligible for the subsidies.



The author seems to be ignorant of the fact that the Bronze plans are the ones which have the high deductibles.  The Silver and Gold plans are the ones with subsidies.  He's conflating the different plans.

The Bronze plans are for the voluntarily uinsured who are mandated to buy insurance but don't want to pay a lot.

If you are voluntarily uninsured, you have an infinite deductible, so a $5,000 Bronze plan deductible is far less painful should you get ill.


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## g5000 (Oct 15, 2013)

Pennywise said:


> when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.



The author is a fellow at the neocon  American Enterprise Institute.


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## boedicca (Oct 15, 2013)

Pennywise said:


> when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.




It certainly 'Splains why Homeland Security has stocked up on 2 Billion + bullets.


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## martybegan (Oct 15, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Amelia said:
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> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



and if you dont meet the deductible, you end up payling out of pocket, like you did before, and you now have an oh so fun monthly payment the government is forcing you to make. Or you can pay a penalty, which the government is then forcing you to pay.

Progressives seem to only like force when it is used against the countries own citizens.


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## Moonglow (Oct 15, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Pennywise said:
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> > when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.
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So you want them to have guns and no bullets?


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## Moonglow (Oct 15, 2013)

martybegan said:


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Why of course. It's Oblama's fault that we must have auto insurance or face a penalty, no mortgage insurance, like hell, you are forced to have it.


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## martybegan (Oct 15, 2013)

Moonglow said:


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its "progressive busybody assholes like you"'s fault. Obama and the statist democrats are just a symptom of your desire to get other people to pay for your shit. 

And where is it said you are forced to buy a house with a mortgage? If you save up and pay cash, you don't need insurance at all. Its voluntary.


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## Dot Com (Oct 15, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Pennywise said:
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> > when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.
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Ooops!


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## boedicca (Oct 15, 2013)

Moonglow said:


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Why do you want them to have guns to use on citizens?


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## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

So anyway ... isn't it wonderful how well Obamacare is coming along?


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## koshergrl (Oct 15, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Pennywise said:
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> > when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.
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Omg, remember when every single reference to that was dumped in "Conspiracy Theories"?

Up to, oh, about 2 months ago!

Dumbasses.


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## koshergrl (Oct 15, 2013)

Why should park rangers be better armed  at their facilities than our soldiers are armed at theirs?

oh SNAP!


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## gallantwarrior (Oct 15, 2013)

Moonglow said:


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Exactly what is the penalty for not having auto insurance?  Mortgage insurance?  Demanded by mortgage companies to secure their interests.  Don't want to pay auto insurance, don't operate a vehicle on public streets, or at the very least, don't be involved in an accident.  Don't like mortgage insurance, don't buy a home.  Neither are forced by government.  Government mandated "health" insurance?  Yeah, don't get sick if you can't afford it, but you will still be required to make your monthly payments or else face fines.  In other words, you will pay, one way or another, you WILL pay.


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## Antares (Oct 15, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Amelia said:
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> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



*The Silver and Gold plans are the ones with subsidies.  He's conflating the different plans.*


No any family who is subsidy eligible can use it on any plan they choose...subsidies are based on family demographics and income.
Line 37 on your taxes to determine the subsidy.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 15, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Amelia said:
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> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



Damn, that was stupid.

All the plans are eligible for subsidies, the silver plans have higher premiums to go along with the lower deductibles.


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## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

How can this kind of thing be made right? Is Obama going to try? How much will it cost the taxpayers if Obama even is willing to try? And don't tell me how much was lost in 2008. The market crash was not done on purpose. The destruction happening under the "Affordable Care Act" was inflicted with great deliberation and much fanfare. 


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDHCJe6SACM]WZZM-MI: ObamaCare Forcing Michigan Couple To Pay Yearly Deductible Twice - YouTube[/ame]
Pregnant couple had to SELL CAR, disconnect cable because of Obamacare​


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## Antares (Oct 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> How can this kind of thing be made right? Is Obama going to try? How much will it cost the taxpayers if Obama even is willing to try? And don't tell me how much was lost in 2008. The market crash was not done on purpose. The destruction happening under the "Affordable Care Act" was inflicted with great deliberation and much fanfare.
> 
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> WZZM-MI: ObamaCare Forcing Michigan Couple To Pay Yearly Deductible Twice - YouTube
> Pregnant couple had to SELL CAR, disconnect cable because of Obamacare​



This is not a change wrought by the ACA, in individual health insirance this has been standard for some time.

No matter how many are in the family it has always been a max of two for a family in a calendar year.


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## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

Roo said:


> Amelia said:
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> > How can this kind of thing be made right? Is Obama going to try? How much will it cost the taxpayers if Obama even is willing to try? And don't tell me how much was lost in 2008. The market crash was not done on purpose. The destruction happening under the "Affordable Care Act" was inflicted with great deliberation and much fanfare.
> ...




If I understood what you just said, I'm still fairly sure it would turn out to be incorrect or would fail to address the facts on the ground.

Before the ACA went into effect the deductible they've already paid would have covered them until April.  Now it is resetting in January.  Before the ACA went into effect, the birth of their child would have been covered by their insurance because they already paid their deductible.  Now that the deductible time period has been reset they'll have to pay for the birth out of pocket.  And even on the covered expenses, they'll have to pay a greater percentage to go along with what the insurance company pays.


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## Antares (Oct 15, 2013)

Even before the ACA there was always a max of two ded in a calendar year for a family, it would be very rare to have single family ded in a policy.

I did not read the article after your post responding I'd like to read their policy.

But yes if they had met their family ded they would indeed be screwed by this...


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## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

Talented tot could have started life out with a little in his savings account.  Too bad, so sad.

Family of Toddler Who Stunned the World With His Viral Trick Shot Videos Hit With Obamacare Shocker | TheBlaze.com


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## percysunshine (Oct 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> So anyway ... isn't it wonderful how well Obamacare is coming along?



Even bloggers at Daily KOS are perplexed;

"My wife and I just got our updates from Kaiser telling us what our 2014 rates will be. Her monthly has been $168 this year, mine $150. We have a high deductible. We are generally healthy people who don't go to the doctor often. I barely ever go. The insurance is in case of a major catastrophe.

Well, now, because of Obamacare, my wife's rate is gong to $302 per month and mine is jumping to $284.

I am canceling insurance for us and I am not paying any fucking penalty. What the hell kind of reform is this?"

Daily Kos: Obamacare will double my monthly premium (according to Kaiser)



Welcome to progressive Utopia pal .... cough up the dough.

LMAO


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## asterism (Oct 15, 2013)

Moonglow said:


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Neither are required by law.

What is mortgage insurance and when is it required?

Alternatives To Auto Insurance - Car Insurance Guide at DMV.org: The DMV Made Simple


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## MeBelle (Oct 15, 2013)

g5000 said:


> The author is a fellow at the* neocon*  American Enterprise Institute.



So?
Is he not allowed to set forth fact and opinion?

Or is that a double standard and lack of tolerance showing?

Throw in the other n word and you'll have succeeded in going full circle.


Two can play this game.


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## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

Obamacare 'navigator' has outstanding arrest warrant | The Daily Caller



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> &#8220;[T]he main concern for consumers is the heightened risk of identity theft and financial loss from a poorly managed outreach campaign,&#8221; the Oversight Committee report said. &#8220;Navigators and Assisters will come into contact with a plethora of personally identifiable information (PII), including an applicant&#8217;s Social Security number, date of birth and income, as well as the PII of everyone in an applicant&#8217;s household.&#8221;
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## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

Affordable Care Act: High deductibles could pinch consumers - chicagotribune.com




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> Brokers say they worry most about people who qualify for lower subsidies or none at all. Those with more modest incomes might not have enough in savings to pay for medical expenses.
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If the site asks you to log in to view the article via this link, search for it from google.


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## Amelia (Oct 15, 2013)

After Two Weeks CNN Reporter Still Hasn't Been Able To Sign Up For ObamaCare | NewsBusters




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> COHEN: You know, they just keep telling me the volume has been very high, that's why we're having these glitches.
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## Antares (Oct 16, 2013)

Ever notice how g runs when he gets slapped down?


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## Amelia (Oct 17, 2013)

MSNBC's Robert Gibbs: 'I Hope They Fire Some People' in Charge of ObamaCare Website | NewsBusters


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## auditor0007 (Oct 17, 2013)

martybegan said:


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I find it ironic that much of the reasoning for the unbelievably high cost of health insurance comes from the fact that so many policies cover everything.  Now we are seeing more policies where people will actually have to make choices to keep costs low, but they will still have insurance to cover them in case they get some really big bills.  But you guys are now complaining that these policies don't pay for everything.  LMAO!!

Here's the truth; health insurance should only cover preventative care and major medical.  People should pay for everything else out of pocket.  Lower income earners could receive tax credits for out of pocket medical expenses over a certain amount.  

If people had to pay for a lot of this shit out of pocket, they would look for the best deals.  Need an MRI, Cat Scan, or Ultrasound?  You have two choices; have it done at the hospital or at a private imaging center.  The cost difference?  An ultrasound at the hospital may run upwards of $1600 or more.  That same ultrasound at a private imaging center will cost around $200.  Where you gonna go if you have the choice?


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## asterism (Oct 17, 2013)

auditor0007 said:


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So this is all a wealth distribution scheme?

All the government had to do was kick in for high-deductible policies for low-income folks.  Why the need for all the other stuff?


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## gallantwarrior (Oct 17, 2013)

asterism said:


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Because this entire farce has little to do with actually ensuring access to health care for people.  It has _everything_ to do with controlling the people and enriching the insurance moguls (who pay enormous sums into the pols"war chests").  "Free health care for all" is a really nice, feel-good mantra.  What kind of ogre would want to deny anybody their"right" to health care, after all?


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## martybegan (Oct 17, 2013)

auditor0007 said:


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There were plenty of low cost high deductible plans out there, but Obamacare has torpedoed most of them, and ADDED things a plan HAS to cover as a bare minimum to meet the requirements. Most of the people who wanted healthcare but couldnt afford it didnt want the no frills plan, they wanted full coverage, usually family coverage. the people who are getting boned are the intentionally uninsured or underinsured, who did it because they didnt feel they needed insurance. Those people will now have to pay something or MORE for something they don't want. 

As for your 2nd point, ANOTHER federal program the feds have no reason to be performing. More bureacracy,  more bloat.


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## Zoom-boing (Oct 17, 2013)

auditor0007 said:


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The (un)aca doubled down on this and people's premiums are skyrocketing as a result.

Can you tell me why a 55 year old single guy with no kids now HAS to pay for maternity, newborn, pediatric care (including vision and dental)??  All that does is raise his premium.  Period.  He doesn't need that coverage but the gov't has decided he will be covered for it, he will pay for it, what he needs be damned.  I thought the left was the party of choice?

Can you tell my why people with pre-existing conditions don't have to pay a higher premium but everyone else's premium will increase to make sure that pe person gets to pay a lowered rate?  People w/pe_ should_ pay a higher rate ... they are a higher risk!  That's like having a newly licensed 16 year old driver pay the same amount that a 30+ experienced driver with a clean record pays.  Makes as much sense too.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 17, 2013)

auditor0007 said:


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I think you are dumber than dog shit.

The reason prices have gone up for people like me is that the polices are required to cover things I will never need.


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## Care4all (Oct 17, 2013)

Pennywise said:


> when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.


FYI- It's not a news article.  It's an OPINION piece by a man who was hired to voice an opinion coming from the right wing perspective...at least that's what appears to be the case when looking at his last 10 opinion pieces.


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 17, 2013)

boedicca said:


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Jeeezus.

Get a grip already.

ObamaCare does not mean that HSA is going to be shooting Americans. 

You people come up with some of the wackiest crap imaginable.


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 17, 2013)

gallantwarrior said:


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Actually, auto insurance is required by law. OR, you can simply provide proof you can pay for the worst possible liability. 

The penalty depends on the extent of damage. Same is true of health care bills. A cold might cost you the cost of some cough syrup but if your child has leukemia, how would you pay that bill?

And yes, sick or hurt or well, you have to pay your bills. Sorry 'bout that.


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## Luddly Neddite (Oct 17, 2013)

Roo said:


> Amelia said:
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Thank you Roo.


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## Pop23 (Oct 17, 2013)

Moonglow said:


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Typical idiot moonbat. Everyone does not have to have car or mortgage insurance. 

Only a true tool would keep bringing this foolishness up.


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## percysunshine (Oct 17, 2013)

Note to moonbats. Auto and mortgage insurance are required by law because you are purchasing insurance which covers somebody else. Either the person you hit, or the bank you borrowed the money from. You are not being required to purchase insurance for yourself, which makes sense after about 5 seconds of thought. Obamacare on the other hand is requiring you to purchase insurance for yourself. Which does not make sense no matter how long you think about it


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## asterism (Oct 17, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


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But only if you aren't on government subsidies.  That's what makes this system unsustainable.


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## Katzndogz (Oct 18, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> Note to moonbats. Auto and mortgage insurance are required by law because you are purchasing insurance which covers somebody else. Either the person you hit, or the bank you borrowed the money from. You are not being required to purchase insurance for yourself, which makes sense after about 5 seconds of thought. Obamacare on the other hand is requiring you to purchase insurance for yourself. Which does not make sense no matter how long you think about it



If you do not own a car you are not required to have auto insurance.   If you don't own a home you aren't required to have either homeowners OR mortgage insurance.   If auto insurance were handled like obamacare, everyone would have to have auto insurance whether or not they own a car or could even drive, just to cover the reduced auto insurance for uninsured drivers.  

obamacare is a one size fits all policy.  Everyone has the same coverage.   A 55 year old woman who has gone through menopause and a 30 year old single man are both required to have contraception, maternity and newborn care policies to pay for that care for those who would like to have it.     Dimwitocrats find this ultimately FAIR, because everyone is treated EQUALLY.


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## martybegan (Oct 18, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> percysunshine said:
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> > Note to moonbats. Auto and mortgage insurance are required by law because you are purchasing insurance which covers somebody else. Either the person you hit, or the bank you borrowed the money from. You are not being required to purchase insurance for yourself, which makes sense after about 5 seconds of thought. Obamacare on the other hand is requiring you to purchase insurance for yourself. Which does not make sense no matter how long you think about it
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That is basically the whole concept in a nutshell.


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## Care4all (Oct 18, 2013)

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Marty, do you truly think that Insurance companies priced their insurance on the basis that ALL those on the plan will have baby birthing coverage?  these are actuaries for goodness sakes and they don't take risks with their estimates....

I am certain they KNOW that women are 50% of the population or there abouts,and "x" amount of them are in birthing age etc, and have used these figures to estimate the cost of the coverage...same with those in the nation with preexisting conditions, they have estimated how many there will be based on the factual and actual numbers and trends they have before them to make these judgements....

AS WITH ALL coverage on any and all plans....it's how many will need "x operations" or how many will need "y medicines for diabetes" and they prorate the cost of these diseases or operations or whatever, over the full policy holders in the plan...

THIS IS HOW INSURANCE WORKS....Marty....all insurance.  

Just as there are no women with Prostate cancer, and no men with vaginal or ovarian cancer, yet the man and or woman, still has that "coverage" on the family plan...

and also, in the case of 100% paid B/C coverage, some states had made it mandatory long before Obamacare and in the end, NO policy hike was needed in order to give this birth control coverage, because less women got pregnant and less women needed those type of services, so it all *ended up being a wash*....no increase in medical costs for b/c coverage on insurance.


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## Amelia (Oct 18, 2013)

Double Down: Obamacare Will Increase Avg. Individual-Market Insurance Premiums By 99% For Men, 62% For Women - Forbes


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## Amelia (Oct 18, 2013)

Obamacare's Website Is Crashing Because It Doesn't Want You To Know How Costly Its Plans Are - Forbes




> A growing consensus of IT experts, outside and inside the government, have figured out a principal reason why the website for Obamacares federally-sponsored insurance exchange is crashing. Healthcare.gov forces you to create an account and enter detailed personal information before you can start shopping. This, in turn, creates a massive traffic bottleneck, as the government verifies your information and decides whether or not youre eligible for subsidies. HHS bureaucrats knew this would make the website run more slowly. But they were more afraid that letting people see the underlying cost of Obamacares insurance plans would scare people away.
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## Antares (Oct 18, 2013)

Care4all said:


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*Marty, do you truly think that Insurance companies priced their insurance on the basis that ALL those on the plan will have baby birthing coverage?*

Sorry, but it is true the risk is spread to EVERYONE who buys a compliant plan.


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## Amelia (Oct 18, 2013)

One of the bullet points in this article makes me wonder how much healthcare could have been provided to the needy if the money had been spent on that instead of on the horrible software or on Obama's "you stupid people will love this once you understand it" tours.

More takers for one-way trip to Mars than for Obamacare, and one state spending $12,000 so far to attract each new insurance customer: Is this the worst launch ever? | Mail Online


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## Care4all (Oct 18, 2013)

Antares said:


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sure, as with all ailments....the calculated and ascertained risk is spread to everyone...the healthy pay for the sick... as well, a known fact....it is how insurance works...you pay for me and I pay for you if one of us gets sick or needs hospitalization etc...

but the men known to be in the pool are known to not be in need for any labor and delivery care...it's not like the insurance company raises everyone's plan because all in the plan are in need of labor and delivery coverage...they only raise the plan by the percentage of women in child bearing years that could possibly have a child and then pro-rate it amongst all.


Just like our plans covering diabetes, or prostate cancer, or vaginal cancer...not all of us will ever face any of those conditions, but our plan policy covers them all....


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## Antares (Oct 18, 2013)

Care4all said:


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Bingo.

I admire well thought out resonses, thank you.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 18, 2013)

Care4all said:


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The fucking point is I will never get pregnant, and don't want insurance that covers it just to save someone else some money.

Besides, if I ever do get pregnant I can guarantee I won't have to worry about paying for it. In fact, I will get rich off being the first cisgendered male to have a child.


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## Dot Com (Oct 18, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Talented tot could have started life out with a little in his savings account.  Too bad, so sad.
> 
> Family of Toddler Who Stunned the World With His Viral Trick Shot Videos Hit With Obamacare Shocker | TheBlaze.com



Amelia going to teh Blaze?


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## Amelia (Oct 18, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> Amelia said:
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Amelia not rejecting a news story simply because The Blaze carried it.  Don't be narrow-minded.


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## Amelia (Oct 20, 2013)

Poor Richard's News - Obamacare levies fines on non-profit hospitals that offer free healthcare to the poor



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> Its ironic isnt it?  The lefts chief complaint about the American healthcare system is that its for profit, but Obamacare will end up forcing non-profit hospitals to either go under or become for-profit institutions themselves.
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## Amelia (Oct 20, 2013)

'Thanks, Alanis!' Check out David Axelrod's absurd Obamacare spin tweet; Iowahawk, others shred | Twitchy


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## Amelia (Oct 20, 2013)

Today I spoke briefly about O-care with my eclectic, well-informed independent friend who is one of the best people I've met here in Wisconsin for being able to see multiple sides of an issue without relying on partisan crutches.

He said he has encountered two people who like O-care.  Both Republican.  Both elderly, on Social Security.  They've supposedly been carrying $1000+ policies to pay for things not covered by Medicare.  And through O-care they're able to get policies which cost closer to $300 or $400.

On the other hand, my friend is currently uninsured and said he can't afford O-care.  His premiums would be less than $200 per month but that's still too much of his income.  He qualifies for subsidies and would theoretically be able to afford the premiums after subsidies but he says he first has to fork over the full premium and then at year's end he would be reimbursed.  He says that's how the subsidies work here.  

That sounds terribly wrong, but this guy has been super reliable in the past so I don't know what to think.


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## Pop23 (Oct 20, 2013)

Antares said:


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Then to be fair. Car insurance should be mandatory for those that don't own cars. Then maybe the savings will allow me to afford buying health insurance for others?

Come on people


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## Amelia (Oct 20, 2013)

Reports from New Jersey:

Obamacare: How affordable is health insurance after the Affordable Care Act? | NJ.com


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## GWV5903 (Oct 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


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> 
> 
> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



So tell us, when this individual cannot pay the deductible, what's the difference with what we have today?


----------



## Politico (Oct 21, 2013)

Or when the person can't pay the premium.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Oct 21, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Reports from New Jersey:
> 
> Obamacare: How affordable is health insurance after the Affordable Care Act? | NJ.com




rates and how they changed across the country


----------



## Amelia (Oct 21, 2013)

Big insurers avoid many state health exchanges


----------



## Amelia (Oct 21, 2013)

The Definitive Guide to How Obamacare is Destroying American Lives | The Matt Walsh Blog


----------



## Amelia (Oct 21, 2013)

Citing Obamacare, Cleveland Clinic to Cut $300M, Warns of Layoffs - US News and World Report


----------



## Amelia (Oct 21, 2013)

At the White House: Obamacare success stories that aren't | WashingtonExaminer.com



> President Obama invited a number of people to stand behind him as he delivered his speech on the state of Obamacare at the White House Monday morning. One of them, Janice Baker, a small business owner from Delaware, introduced the president, and Obama spoke of Baker and the others gathered there as people who have benefited from Obamacare. But after reading the White House-provided descriptions of each of those behind the president, it's clear the administration was stretching to present people who, beyond supporting Obamacare, have actually gained from it in any tangible way.
> 
> For example, a Pennsylvania man named Malik Hassan was in the group, and this is the White House description of his situation, in full: "Malik Hassan works at a restaurant in Philadelphia. Hassan, who does not receive coverage through his employer, is looking forward to enrolling for health coverage this fall. He recently used Healthcare.gov. to process his application and is waiting for the options for potential plans in Philadelphia."
> 
> ...


----------



## Dante (Oct 22, 2013)

Pennywise said:


> when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.



*cognitive disonance alert!*

The article is by:
Marc A. Thiessen (born 1967) is an American author, columnist and political commentator, who served as a speechwriter for United States President George W. Bush (20042009) and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld (20012004). - Wikipedia
------

What FOX and other noise machine agendists have been telling you, and what you have been regurgitating like a good little tweetie bird is debunked by this example you use. 

"Thinking is the best way to travel." - Moody Blues


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 22, 2013)

The issues are deeply embedded and are not just technical ones. The WH has heard from insurance companies, consumers and health policy experts about "..inaccurate information provided to people about federal tax credits; low-income people told erroneously that they don't qualify for Medicaid; and insurance companies getting confused about who has signed up."

Why Obama Should Be Freaked Out Over Obamacare - NationalJournal.com


"
If enough Americans don&#8217;t join the exchanges, Obamacare collapses. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the administration needs at least 7 million people to join the exchanges for Obamacare to be financially viable. While the administration won&#8217;t reveal sign-up rates, London&#8217;s Daily Mail reported that total sign-ups in the first week were just 51,000 people. If accurate, that would mean they have just 6,949,000 more to go to break even."

Marc Thiessen: The Obamacare implosion is worse than you think - The Washington Post


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 22, 2013)

My brother's individual catastrophic health insurance expires 12/31/2013 because it is not aca compliant.  

What happens if he still hasn't been able to sign up for aca by then?  What happens if he still hasn't been able to sign up for aca by then and on 1/1/2014 he gets into an accident that requires a $15,000 hospital stay, surgery, and physical therapy? What happens to all the people who have lost their health insurance (by force of the aca) and can't sign up for health insurance?  Too fucking bad for them?  Can they send obama the bill?  

obama's garden speech yesterday ... the guy is a fecking clueless idiot and a complete embarrassment.  He makes me cringe (and not in the good way).


----------



## Amelia (Oct 22, 2013)

"Too fucking bad" seems to be the theme.  So many responsible people being harmed because Obama changed the rules of the game -- just ripped the rug right out from under them -- and too bad, so sad, Obama won't even acknowledge that people are suffering.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 22, 2013)

"the product is good"


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 22, 2013)

Amelia said:


> "Too fucking bad" seems to be the theme.  So many responsible people being harmed because Obama changed the rules of the game -- just ripped the rug right out from under them -- and too bad, so sad, Obama won't even acknowledge that people are suffering.



Yup.  My brother is hunting around for an aca compliant policy through other insurers.  If he can't find anything, he is screwed as are thousands (100s of thousands?) of others.  And all obutthead can do is say "it's good, it's good", "it's just a glitch or two".  A president hawking a product ... well, he fundamentally transformed America, he did do that.  And the left cheers.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 22, 2013)

Bombshell: Federal judge suddenly green-lights lawsuit that could stop Obamacare in its tracks | Mail Online




> ....
> 
> The Competitive Enterprise Institute said in a statement that the IRS and the Department of Health and Human Services have pushed regulations that Congress didn't authorize, forcing some employers 'to cut back employees' hours' in order to dodge Obamacare's more economically challenging requirements, 'even though they are located in states that have refused to set up their own insurance exchanges.'
> 
> ...


----------



## boedicca (Oct 22, 2013)

Pretty much anytime one of the Reactionary Libs dismisses something as a CT, one can consider it to be factual.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 22, 2013)

Health co-ops, created to foster competition and lower insurance costs, are facing danger - The Washington Post



> When the new health-care law was being cobbled together, Congress decided to establish a network of nonprofit insurance companies aimed at bringing competition to the marketplace, long dominated by major insurers.
> 
> But these co-ops, started as a great hope for lowering insurance costs, are already in danger.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Oct 22, 2013)

Sebelius: President didn't know of Obamacare website's woes in advance - CNN.com


Could he possibly be that oblivious?  I know he is ignorant about so many things, but did anything matter more to his legacy than this?

He didn't even ask if it was ready?  

It's flabbergasting. 

I don't even believe she's lying to cover him.  The only excuse for this to happen was that he was ignorant about it.  But how could he not get meaningful information about it before the big unveiling?  Incredible doesn't cover it.


----------



## orBeMezaTtnoD (Oct 22, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Sebelius: President didn't know of Obamacare website's woes in advance - CNN.com
> Could he possibly be that oblivious?  I know he is ignorant about so many things, but did anything matter more to his legacy than this?
> He didn't even ask if it was ready?
> It's flabbergasting.
> I don't even believe she's lying to cover him.  The only excuse for this to happen was that he was ignorant about it.  But how could he not get meaningful information about it before the big unveiling?  Incredible doesn't cover it.



He knew - he told Sebelius to go ahead anyway and that is why he can't fire her - he is the only one responsible for rolling this out untested and it is because he knows, they all know, it won't work. It is not supposed to work but just be a stepping stone to single payer, totally government run, controlled and paid for healthcare. They both are probably the ones who will be the recipients of the $600 million spent on the website (that money is absurd for what they got -any expert programmer will tell you a couple million would have been more than enough) and you can bet the majority of it was funneled through shell corporations to be a Democrat slush fund (Obama's stash).

Did you see Obama yesterday when he paraded out a bunch of people who were supposed to have benefited from *Ovomitcare* when only 3 of the dozen or so there even enrolled. The one behind him from Delaware was heralded by Carney the day before as a subscriber from Delaware who saved $150. What Carney didn't say was after the three weeks of the rollout she was the ONLY person in Delaware to sign up!! 




Well we know by now Jay Carney is no less than the American version of the Iraqi Information Minister "Bahgdad Bob"​
And Obama turned to the Delaware woman to ask her if she was OK - how did he know she was faint? She was standing behind him...maybe this explains the fainting at his appearances..
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dySlhGY6Zyo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dySlhGY6Zyo[/ame]


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 22, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Sebelius: President didn't know of Obamacare website's woes in advance - CNN.com
> 
> 
> Could he possibly be that oblivious?  I know he is ignorant about so many things, but did anything matter more to his legacy than this?
> ...



Did he ask?  You know, when people post that he is a narcissistic, arrogant, self-center ass ... they're not just flapping their gums. It's all true.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he just didn't bother to ask or simply ignored anything negative said about it.  In a narcissists world, caring what affects others just doesn't matter, self is what matters. I truly believe he just does not give a shit.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 22, 2013)

orBeMezaTtnoD said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Sebelius: President didn't know of Obamacare website's woes in advance - CNN.com
> ...



Yup.  How would they go about getting that?  Would they need another trifecta or just 'morph' this into single payer?  obama has already made changes to the law as he wanted.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 22, 2013)

Health care website problems jeopardize Obama's legacy




> ....
> 
> The health care overhaul stands as the most visible example of Obama's political philosophy that there are still areas where government can best serve the public interest. With the passage of the major health care law overhaul in 2010, Obama accomplished something that Theodore Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton all tried and failed to get done during their time leading the country.
> 
> ...






By the way, where is the money coming from to fix this snafu?


----------



## orBeMezaTtnoD (Oct 22, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> orBeMezaTtnoD said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



It's just a hop skip and a jump - Ovomitcare was the hop, it's failure the skip and the jump to single payer - well that will come if Obama wins the house and keeps the senate...if not then look for a crisis to bring about marshal law - they have the power - Obama will not give it up. Marshall law could keep him in office past a second term to finish fundamentally transforming the US.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 22, 2013)

This will be linked and represented by some people on the left as "no evidence".  Read the fine print.

Analysis: Little evidence yet that Obamacare costing full-time jobs | Reuters


----------



## asterism (Oct 22, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Sebelius: President didn't know of Obamacare website's woes in advance - CNN.com
> 
> 
> Could he possibly be that oblivious?  I know he is ignorant about so many things, but did anything matter more to his legacy than this?
> ...



I think he was that oblivious.  This is a man that has never run anything in his life.


----------



## asterism (Oct 23, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> orBeMezaTtnoD said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



I disagree.

The botched rollout is nothing but the incompetence of these fools.  The plan was to get everyone possible enrolled and dependent, then have the system blow up due to unsustainable subsidies.  

That's why everyone on the left is freaking out right now - and they are freaking out - because this is a direct parallel to the ineffectiveness of the DMV.

The louder and more frequent someone is at defending this trainwreck, the more emotionally invested they are at making sure it doesn't stop the progress to single payer.


----------



## Politico (Oct 23, 2013)

asterism said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Sebelius: President didn't know of Obamacare website's woes in advance - CNN.com
> ...



No he knew. And Sebelius is throwing herself under the bus just like Rice in exchange for a promotion down the road.


----------



## Dante (Oct 23, 2013)

Good gawd, the hallelujah chorus of Obama haters is in one place..

Obama as evil genius and drooling dope. Make up your warped minds.


----------



## orBeMezaTtnoD (Oct 23, 2013)

Dante said:


> Good gawd, the hallelujah chorus of Obama haters is in one place..
> 
> Obama as evil genius and drooling dope. Make up your warped minds.



evil genius? nothing he has ever done is genius and no one depicts him as a genius - only a nitwit like you would draw that conclusion - drooling dope yeah because drooling dopes are who elected him.


----------



## Jroc (Oct 23, 2013)

Pelosi on Sebelius and Obamacare: Her Implementation Of This Is Fabulous

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i9Lm6hSvkI]FLASHBACK: Pelosi on Sebelius and Obamacare: 'Implementation of this is fabulous' - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## asterism (Oct 23, 2013)

Dante said:


> Good gawd, the hallelujah chorus of Obama haters is in one place..
> 
> Obama as evil genius and drooling dope. Make up your warped minds.



Why can't people disagree?  Some people think he's as smart as his slobbering supporters say he is.  Some people think he's a lightweight.  It's obvious that he's never been in charge of anything before being President.  

However, I bet you considered Bush '43 to be an idiot who was somehow smart enough to fool the Democrats into believing Saddam had WMDs - even if they said so before Bush was even a candidate.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 23, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Pelosi on Sebelius and Obamacare: Her Implementation Of This Is Fabulous
> 
> FLASHBACK: Pelosi on Sebelius and Obamacare: 'Implementation of this is fabulous' - YouTube


----------



## Amelia (Oct 23, 2013)

> CBS News has uncovered a serious pricing problem with HealthCare.gov. It stems from the Obama administration's efforts to improve its health care website. A new online feature can dramatically underestimate the cost of insurance.
> 
> The administration announced it would provide a new "shop and browse" feature Sunday, but it's not giving consumers the real picture. In some cases, people could end up paying double of what they see on the website, CBS News' Jan Crawford reported Wednesday on "CBS This Morning."
> 
> ....



Read more: HealthCare.gov pricing feature can be off the mark - CBS News


----------



## Amelia (Oct 23, 2013)

The reporter on this story, Drew Griffin, was rebuked by his CNN colleague for daring to tell that some people would be paying more due to the ACA and some of the most needy still won't be able to purchase insurance because it will cost too much for them.

Obamacare: Who pays more? Who pays less? - CNN.com Video



Apparently telling some truths should be left to Republicans and the Fox network, according to Cornell Belcher


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 23, 2013)

The most needy will get it for nothing.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 23, 2013)

For what it's worth...

Which will be about nothing.


----------



## boedicca (Oct 23, 2013)

As the Goldman Sachs Elevator tweeted:    "The Nigerian Scammers already have better-working ObamaCare websites."

Maybe Obama can get the Best and Brightest of the Nigerian Scammers to fix Fed version.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 23, 2013)




----------



## koshergrl (Oct 23, 2013)

"
Did President Obama and his circle of most trusted advisers repeatedly make that absurd promise because they just didn&#8217;t _care_ what they had to do to get the thing passed, or because they legitimately didn&#8217;t _know_ the extent of the damages that would result from the monster they&#8217;ve created? I&#8217;m not sure which one disturbs me more."

Oh, good: Insurance cancellation notices are snowballing « Hot Air


----------



## Antares (Oct 23, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Today I spoke briefly about O-care with my eclectic, well-informed independent friend who is one of the best people I've met here in Wisconsin for being able to see multiple sides of an issue without relying on partisan crutches.
> 
> He said he has encountered two people who like O-care.  Both Republican.  Both elderly, on Social Security.  They've supposedly been carrying $1000+ policies to pay for things not covered by Medicare.  And through O-care they're able to get policies which cost closer to $300 or $400.
> 
> ...



Nope the ssubsidies can either be taken up front as you go, or as acredit at tax time, the people choose.

There is very little medicare does not over, the supplements availiable basically eliminate all out of pocket expenses except for Rx.

At 65 plan F, the best plan, costs 132 bucks.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 23, 2013)

BEYOND 'GLITCHES': Obamacare Nightmare Just Beginning



> Constant glitches keep people from logging into the exchanges. Humiliating live video of reporters normally favorable to Obamacare simply giving up in frustration because they cannot sign up. Consumers who are lucky enough to get through the system are stunned to learn that their premiums have skyrocketed by thousands of dollars. One Pennsylvania mother says that she can either pay her increased premiums or pay for her kids to eat, but she cant do both.
> 
> Extremely personal information has already leaked from the system in Minnesota. Software security experts from McAfee predict millions of identity theft victims. And one of the healthcare exchanges was forced to acknowledge that information collected from patients will be shared with law enforcement.
> 
> ....


----------



## Amelia (Oct 23, 2013)

For Democrats, Obamacare Web Woes Create 2014 Headache : It's All Politics : NPR



> President Obama radiated confidence when he took to the Rose Garden earlier this week to convince Americans that the flaws in the Affordable Care Act website would be fixed.
> 
> It's understandable that the president himself might be upbeat about the prospects of resolving the problems currently plaguing the technology behind the law.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Oct 24, 2013)

> For the past two weeks, healthcare.gov, the federal government&#8217;s new health insurance marketplace, has been bogged down by problems, preventing users (including me) from viewing insurance options and plans on the website.
> 
> Federal officials have pointed to overwhelming demand to explain the site&#8217;s problems. But web developers, other experts and journalists have uncovered more fundamental issues with the design and functioning of the site.
> 
> Here are excerpts from five of the better stories explaining what happened:



Read more: Here's why healthcare.gov broke down


----------



## Jroc (Oct 24, 2013)

Amelia said:


> > For the past two weeks, healthcare.gov, the federal governments new health insurance marketplace, has been bogged down by problems, preventing users (including me) from viewing insurance options and plans on the website.
> >
> > Federal officials have pointed to overwhelming demand to explain the sites problems. But web developers, other experts and journalists have uncovered more fundamental issues with the design and functioning of the site.
> >
> ...




Over a half billion dollars spent on this site ..What joke


----------



## jon_berzerk (Oct 24, 2013)

boedicca said:


> As the Goldman Sachs Elevator tweeted:    "The Nigerian Scammers already have better-working ObamaCare websites."
> 
> Maybe Obama can get the Best and Brightest of the Nigerian Scammers to fix Fed version.



*"The Nigerian Scammers already have better-working ObamaCare websites."*


--LOL

sad but true


----------



## Amelia (Oct 24, 2013)

Millions of Americans Are Losing Their Health Plans Because of Obamacare | The Weekly Standard


----------



## Amelia (Oct 24, 2013)

Wow. A 63-year-old called into Hannity to tell the lengths she had to go to in order to keep her insurance with BCBS.  That call needs to be made available for distribution via youtube or something.   First of all her premiums increased dramatically.  Good news is she is now covered for pregnancy.  But she had to reapply and the application packet she received was 1/4" thick.  She was required to contact every doctor she has seen in the past 10 years.  She had to employ multiple clerical skills including faxing -- things beyond the skill set of Obama's target demographic, many of whom, according to Democrats, don't even have the skill set required to obtain a government ID.


----------



## AquaAthena (Oct 24, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Millions of Americans Are Losing Their Health Plans Because of Obamacare | The Weekly Standard


*
SNIP from your link:
*
While the Affordable Care Act was making its way through Congress in 2009 and 2010, President Obama famously promised the American people over and over again that if you like your health plan, you can keep it. 
Obamacare
*
Let me be exactly clear about what health care reform means to you, Obama said at one rally in July 2009. First of all, if youve got health insurance, you like your doctors, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan.  Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.  * 
*
But the president's promise is turning out to be false* for millions of Americans who have had their health insurance policies canceled because they don't meet the requirements of the Affordable Care Act.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 25, 2013)

Medicaid enrollment spike a threat to Obamacare structure? - CBS News


----------



## Amelia (Oct 25, 2013)

IRS tax-credit scandal a bad omen for Obamacare | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## Amelia (Oct 25, 2013)

Seven Things (Still) Wrong with ObamaCare - Forbes


----------



## Amelia (Oct 25, 2013)

BOOM! Megyn Kelly Does Killer Report on ObamaCare's Broken Promises - Fox Nation


The quotes from Democrats are priceless.  The quotes from concerned civilians are moving.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 26, 2013)

Video: ObamaCare meltdown raises serious questions about being unmanageable, says ... David Gregory « Hot Air

Obamacare's Virtual Fantasy Couldn't Handle Messy Reality - Bloomberg

David Kline: 'Cover Oregon' Doesn't Have Me Covered - WSJ.com

Sorry liberals, Obamacare's problems go much deeper than the Web site -- Ezra Klein, Washington Post

ObamaCare rollout casts cloud over 2014 Dems, despite GOP's budget fight bruises | Fox News


----------



## Amelia (Oct 26, 2013)

Obamacare Website Violates Licensing Agreement for Copyrighted Software | The Weekly Standard


----------



## Amelia (Oct 27, 2013)

McAfee on Obamacare: 'This is a hacker's wet dream' [VIDEO] | The Daily Caller


----------



## Amelia (Oct 28, 2013)

Obamacare jacks up her insurance - Chicago Sun-Times





> Sue Klinkhamer has a problem.
> 
> Its called Obamacare.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Oct 28, 2013)

From a story I just heard on the radio news, so no link:

As high as premiums and other costs have turned out to be for nonsmokers, they're substantially higher for smokers.  It is feared that this will pressure smokers into paying the penalty instead of being insured.

That's good news, eh?

/sarcasm


----------



## Amelia (Oct 28, 2013)

Obama admin. knew millions could not keep their health insurance - NBC Investigations




> ....
> 
> Four sources deeply involved in the Affordable Care Act tell NBC NEWS that 50 to 75 percent of the 14 million consumers who buy their insurance individually can expect to receive a &#8220;cancellation&#8221; letter or the equivalent over the next year because their existing policies don&#8217;t meet the standards mandated by the new health care law. One expert predicts that number could reach as high as 80 percent. And all say that many of those forced to buy pricier new policies will experience &#8220;sticker shock.&#8221;
> 
> ...






> ....
> 
> Those getting the cancellation letters are often shocked and unhappy.
> 
> ...


----------



## boedicca (Oct 28, 2013)

I find it a tad encouraging that the MSM are finally reporting on how awful ObamaCare is.

I bet some of them are really enjoying the schadenfreude after years of harassment and threats by the O-Bots.


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Obama admin. knew millions could not keep their health insurance - NBC Investigations
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was discussing this with a friend of mine 3 years ago.  We both agreed that if he got Obamacare through, this country would be single payer in less than 5 years.  No business in its right mind would continue to provide insurance for their employees. Obama had effected a complete model change in the way commerce is conducted here in the US.


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

AquaAthena said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Millions of Americans Are Losing Their Health Plans Because of Obamacare | The Weekly Standard
> ...



Well, he didn't exactly tell lie.  He just didn't tell the complete truth.  You CAN keep your health plan if you like it.  But your health plan is not required to keep you!


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > > For the past two weeks, healthcare.gov, the federal governments new health insurance marketplace, has been bogged down by problems, preventing users (including me) from viewing insurance options and plans on the website.
> ...



But it was Moochelle's BFF.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 28, 2013)

boedicca said:


> I find it a tad encouraging that the MSM are finally reporting on how awful ObamaCare is.
> 
> I bet some of them are really enjoying the schadenfreude after years of harassment and threats by the O-Bots.






I'm somewhat encouraged too.  Qualifiedly.

I'm torn between being bitter that they didn't investigate and report upon the situation when there was still time to make a difference ... and being happy that they aren't all sitting on the story now. 

I'm so pessimistic about what can be done now.  The jobs are already lost.  The policies are already cancelled.  So much has already been spent breaking things.  How much would it cost to fix them again?


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Oct 28, 2013)

Obama's not really big on free speech and transparency, especially when it comes to the Democrat media and his Administration...

Big Surprise Right...


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Wow. A 63-year-old called into Hannity to tell the lengths she had to go to in order to keep her insurance with BCBS.  That call needs to be made available for distribution via youtube or something.   First of all her premiums increased dramatically.  Good news is she is now covered for pregnancy.  But she had to reapply and the application packet she received was 1/4" thick.  She was required to contact every doctor she has seen in the past 10 years.  She had to employ multiple clerical skills including faxing -- *things beyond the skill set of Obama's target demographic, many of whom, according to Democrats, don't even have the skill set required to obtain a government ID.  *



You gotta love it.


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

Amelia said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > I find it a tad encouraging that the MSM are finally reporting on how awful ObamaCare is.
> ...



I have a business, but no employees.  If I did have employees, I would change my business model so they would have to get their insurance elsewhere.   Business is business. This is the US.  They are not charitable organizations, they are businesses motivated by profit.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Oct 28, 2013)

I do like that Democrats have fully taken responsibility for the realities of Dem-O-Care, even if Obama can't.


----------



## AquaAthena (Oct 28, 2013)

Amelia said:


> The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> 
> Marc Thiessen: The Obamacare implosion is worse than you think - The Washington Post



Tick-tock----tick-tock......


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Oct 28, 2013)

AquaAthena said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



You seem much happier that 2 weeks ago... I'm glad


----------



## AquaAthena (Oct 28, 2013)

Lumpy 1 said:


> I do like that Democrats have fully taken responsibility for the realities of Dem-O-Care, even if Obama can't.



The cowards were for it and now they are against it. Reelections coming soon. The author of the bill calls it a train wreck....Sebelius smiles pretty and says all will be well soon. She had nothing to do with it, after all....


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Oct 28, 2013)

AquaAthena said:


> Lumpy 1 said:
> 
> 
> > I do like that Democrats have fully taken responsibility for the realities of Dem-O-Care, even if Obama can't.
> ...


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

When I think of Obamacare I think of a prank the boys used to play on the postman.  They would shut a cat up in a mailbox on a hot summer day.  Then they would beat on it with sticks to get the cat more riled up.  Then they would hide in the bushes and watch the furious cat run out and claw the postman when he opened the mailbox door.  A lot of people have been pranked and the cats just ran out of the mailboxes and up their arms.

I don't know why I just can't shake the cat imagery when I think of Obama.  But the cat shit IS the most stinking shit in the world.


----------



## Antares (Oct 28, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> AquaAthena said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



No you can't, they die on Dec 31st


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

Antares said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > AquaAthena said:
> ...



Yeah they can.  Until they company cancels them!


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

AquaAthena said:


> Lumpy 1 said:
> 
> 
> > I do like that Democrats have fully taken responsibility for the realities of Dem-O-Care, even if Obama can't.
> ...



*It was supposed to be for everybody else.  Not for them.  *

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6_1Pw1xm9U]Surprise Surprise Surprise - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Katzndogz (Oct 28, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. A 63-year-old called into Hannity to tell the lengths she had to go to in order to keep her insurance with BCBS.  That call needs to be made available for distribution via youtube or something.   First of all her premiums increased dramatically.  Good news is she is now covered for pregnancy.  But she had to reapply and the application packet she received was 1/4" thick.  She was required to contact every doctor she has seen in the past 10 years.  She had to employ multiple clerical skills including faxing -- *things beyond the skill set of Obama's target demographic, many of whom, according to Democrats, don't even have the skill set required to obtain a government ID.  *
> ...



I am covered for pregnancy, contraception, abortion and newborn care.   I am 67 years old.  What I lost, because government studies no longer find them necessary are mammograms, and cancer screenings.  Instead of every year, I can get them every five years.

Since my benefits have increased so dramatically, I must pay for the increased coverage.  Democrats are very quick to point out that I now have insurance I didn't have before.   See how good it's been already?


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 28, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Pennywise said:
> 
> 
> > when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.
> ...



and why there is such a heavy push to register existing guns and limit what people can own.  our government realizes our military can't stop an uprising in a country as small as Afghanistan.  they sure as hell know they could not stop one in a country the size of ours.  sure our army could , if needed, pretty much blow Afghanistan off the map.  but realistically, they can't do the.  no way the could do it at home either.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 28, 2013)

White House Grants Extension on Health Law Sign-Up - ABC News

What was it Obama said about not being able to change the law?


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 28, 2013)

Amelia said:


> White House Grants Extension on Health Law Sign-Up - ABC News
> 
> What was it Obama said about not being able to change the law?



if obamas nose was made out of wood it would be a giant sequoia


----------



## MeBelle (Oct 28, 2013)

White House: Half of young adults can get coverage for $50


The Obama administration released a report Monday evening claiming that half of single, uninsured adults will be able to purchase coverage for under $50 a month under Obamacare.

More than *1 million single adults between the ages of 18 and 35* will be able to purchase the lowest cost bronze plan on the new insurance exchanges for under $50, the report from the Health and Human Services agency says. Thats about *46 percent of uninsured young adults* in the 34 states that provided information to the agency. *An additional 1 million single, uninsured young adults would qualify for Medicaid in these states*, due to the expansion of the program.

Report:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2013/UninsuredYoungAdults/rb_uninsuredyoungadults.pdf


----------



## percysunshine (Oct 28, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> White House: Half of young adults can get coverage for $50
> 
> 
> The Obama administration released a report Monday evening claiming that half of single, uninsured adults will be able to purchase coverage for under $50 a month under Obamacare.
> ...




Always reed the fine print. The less than $100 premium, catastrophic plan, has a $6,350 deductible.....


----------



## GWV5903 (Oct 29, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > White House: Half of young adults can get coverage for $50
> ...



This is in line with buying ocean front property in AZ...

Who is going to pay a $6,350 deductible that works at McDonalds? 

Maybe the manager? Wait he already has coverage?


----------



## JohnL.Burke (Oct 29, 2013)

No amount of spin and delusion is going to erase this lie.
[ame=http://youtu.be/N-xA3WiL2Xo]If you like your healthcare plan you can keep it. - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## jon_berzerk (Oct 29, 2013)

JohnL.Burke said:


> No amount of spin and delusion is going to erase this lie.
> If you like your healthcare plan you can keep it. - YouTube



he knew in 2010 it was a lie


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 29, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



I pay a lot in premiums for my 3 insurances.  I think I could get the Medicare one down, but it would take a tank of gas to go fill out the paperwork and is likely less expensive to just wait until they adjust it down automatically.  I pay a combined total of $477 for my insurances.  Together they pay for everything except the out of pocket copays for pills, and a little left over on the $100,000 a year medicine.  The pharmacy gets a grant for everyone who isn't working so they don't have to pay the copay out of pocket.  This is an 'orphan' disease so not treatable with inexpensive medications.   I declined it, but they said they don't ask, they just do it for everyone who isn't working because if you have such a terrible medical illness you shouldn't have to worry about money.  When I die, I will have my children put in the organization for donations in lieu of flowers.


----------



## Dot Com (Oct 29, 2013)

cry me a river. 

ENOUGH RW WHINE THREADS!!! 

Rw'ers could have filled the Delaware river w/ the amt of whines on this thread

All NEGGED!!!

Medicare Part D didn't start out very well either but people seem to use its benefits.

Carry on.


----------



## JohnL.Burke (Oct 29, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> cry me a river.
> 
> ENOUGH RW WHINE THREADS!!!
> 
> ...



[ame=http://youtu.be/wfl55GgHr5E]"If you like your plan, you can keep your plan." - Barack Obama - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 29, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> cry me a river.
> 
> ENOUGH RW WHINE THREADS!!!
> 
> ...




Another fine example of a leftist caring about his fellow man.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 29, 2013)

Dot is writhing in embarrassment about the liar he supported and he doesn't know how to react so he's lashing out.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 29, 2013)

New York doctors flee Obamacare: 'I plan to retire' - Washington Times


----------



## B. Kidd (Oct 29, 2013)

People were worried about whether they could keep their doctors. They never imagined that their doctors might not keep them.
Obamacare recipients will be lucky if they can even get an appointment with a third world P.A. (physicians assistant) practicing here on a visa.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 29, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> White House: Half of young adults can get coverage for $50
> 
> 
> The Obama administration released a report Monday evening claiming that half of single, uninsured adults will be able to purchase coverage for under $50 a month under Obamacare.
> ...




Remind me again where they're expecting the money to pay for all those subsidies and Medicaid accounts to come from ....


----------



## Amelia (Oct 29, 2013)

Obama accused of breaking promise to consumers as health plans cancel policies - The Washington Post



> ....
> 
> Rosalie Lacorazza, 42, and her husband, Leo Scott, 42, received a letter a few weeks ago from CareFirst notifying the Arlington couple about coming changes to their coverage. Lacorazza, an independent consultant, and Scott, who heads a small start-up company, pay about $450 a month for a health plan that allows them to choose their own doctors. Their out-of-pocket costs are capped at $2,800.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 29, 2013)

Here's a link I got off of the healthcare.gov facebook page.  You can click on your state, enter in generic info and get some numbers.  

Health Insurance Exchanges


I entered info for our family (even though we won't be using the (un)aca) just to see the numbers.  Regardless of the plan we qualified for nearly $1,340 in subsidy money.  Oh, sorry.  It says "Your income qualifies you for Cost Sharing Reductions on this plan. Your cost sharing expenses will likely be lower than those displayed."  Joe taxpayer would be footing the bill and then some.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 30, 2013)

Affordable Care Act worries employees - KFVS12 News & Weather Cape Girardeau, Carbondale, Poplar Bluff


----------



## jon_berzerk (Oct 30, 2013)

B. Kidd said:


> People were worried about whether they could keep their doctors. They never imagined that their doctors might not keep them.
> Obamacare recipients will be lucky if they can even get an appointment with a third world P.A. (physicians assistant) practicing here on a visa.



true when they harped that health care is a right 

they forgot that they could not enslave the medical professionals 

many of which will simply opt out


----------



## MeBelle (Oct 30, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Affordable Care Act worries employees - KFVS12 News & Weather Cape Girardeau, Carbondale, Poplar Bluff






> The Obama administration said people who are being dropped from their current insurance plans *will benefit in the end*


----------



## jon_berzerk (Oct 30, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Affordable Care Act worries employees - KFVS12 News & Weather Cape Girardeau, Carbondale, Poplar Bluff
> ...



yeah sure they will 

the admin has been so honest in the past


----------



## Amelia (Oct 30, 2013)

Good article about the state of the medical profession from Obama-friendly CNN from back on Oct. 2:

Obamacare, doctor shortage could crash health care system - CNN.com

Lots there but one interesting thing was that they think that if O-care is successful in putting a lot of new people into insurance plans, that could increase emergency room usage because of the doctor shortage:



> "I think of (Obamacare) as giving everyone an ATM card in a town where there are no ATM machines," Stanton said. "The coming storm of patients means when they can't get in to see a primary care physician, even more people will end up with me in the emergency room."


----------



## Amelia (Oct 30, 2013)

Security hole found in Obamacare website - Oct. 29, 2013



> ....
> 
> By Friday, that dent in security was gone. But security consultants say it's disconcerting that such a privacy concern remained unaddressed for more than three weeks after the federal government launched the Obamacare website Oct. 1.
> 
> ...


----------



## jon_berzerk (Oct 30, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Security hole found in Obamacare website - Oct. 29, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*website operates on a single computer server in Virginia -- without any backup*

a real fly by night scam 

no matter how you view it


----------



## arynne92 (Oct 30, 2013)

I've been affected in two ways by Obamacare.  First, I have been in the healthcare field for 35 years, and have been laid of twice in the last two years, only to find out I was replaced by a very much younger worker. (Lower wages, duh!)  I have had no health insurance for the last two years, but have been paying cash.  The other day, I tried to renew my cholesterol prescription and was told that my doctor wouldn't do it until I came in for a visit.  So I called my doctor to make an appointment....well, he doesn't take cash pay patients.  I was told I'd get a reply within 48 hours from my doctor regarding my request for a prescription renewal...no call ever received.  This is the way it's going, folks!


----------



## Amelia (Oct 30, 2013)

Obamacare and Republican criticism: The health care law's early missteps are making the GOP appear wise.

Such small consolation. So much damage to fix. Damage to democracy. Damage to people whose lives are thrown into tumult by the ACA. But if the current rash of truthtelling by those in the media gains traction, we have a chance. Hopefully this isn't just an attempt to cover their asses for their past negligence while they regroup and brainstorm about how to help shore up Obama so he can pursue the rest of his agenda.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 30, 2013)

Good reminder about part of the Obama administration's active campaign to stifle the truth from getting out while there still was a chance for citizens to make an informed decision to stop Obamacare. 

The Thuggery of Obamacare Czarina Kathleen Sebelius | RealClearPolitics


----------



## Amelia (Oct 30, 2013)

In health care mess, Obama reaps what he sowed | WashingtonExaminer.com

It's Not a Broken Promise if You Never Meant to Keep it | Fox News


----------



## Amelia (Oct 30, 2013)

Obama's pledge that 'no one will take away' your health plan -- WaPo Fact Checker -- Four Pinocchios

WaPo calls Obama "possibly foolish"??????? 

They're going to have to do some serious penance for that.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 31, 2013)

You can force a horse to the trough . . . 



> With the implementation of the individual mandate for health insurance just a few months away, many doctors have decided that they will not be accepting patients who sign up through the Obamacare exchanges.
> 
> A survey by the New York State Medical Society revealed that 44 percent of doctors are not participating in Obamacare, 23 percent will accept Obamacare customers and 33 percent are not sure.
> 
> ...



Doctors Are 'Treating Obamacare Like the Plague,' Refusing to Participate | Independent Journal Review

I've stated this in other threads.  My son (special needs) has a medicaid card.  We have health insurance through my husband's employer and don't use the medicaid.  We keep it because through medicaid we received transportation for my son to school prior to his K-12 years and also after he is done school, transportation to his job.  No doctor we ever went to accepted the medicaid plan he is on (it's an HMO).  No specialist, no pediatrician, no doctor.  The only thing we ever used it for was a secondary pair of glasses (he broke his a lot when he was younger).  

Just because the obama and dems have shoved this down our throats does not mean that we or the doctors are going to swallow.  They didn't bother to entertain the possibility of that happening and I bet it really galls them that it is happening.  What's next, will the obama simply 'executive order' docs to accept patients, regardless of where they get their insurance?


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

Forbes: White House Predicted in 2010 That 93 Million Would Lose Their Health Plans Under ObamaCare


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

Obama leadership style raises question of 'who is in control?' - NBC Politics


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 31, 2013)

can you imagine if the ACA had been launched by Bush.  the problems with the website. the number of people being dropped. the admission of his health care chief after the fact they knew 93 million people would lose their coverage. after they have been denying that all along.  the sticker shock.  the low participation.    

Do you think the liberals would have been bashing bush?   do you think the liberals would have been critical of a democratic congress trying to stop the plan?


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

ZOMG!  The assault on Bush would have be relentless.  And when his poll numbers sunk that would have been a fresh round of headlines whereas from my tour of the interwebs this morning, it sounds like the media have taken Obama's new poll numbers as a sign that they need to back off from reporting on the ACA and his other problems.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 31, 2013)

Amelia said:


> ZOMG!  The assault on Bush would have be relentless.  And when his poll numbers sunk that would have been a fresh round of headlines whereas from my tour of the interwebs this morning, it sounds like the media have taken Obama's new poll numbers as a sign that they need to back off from reporting on the ACA and his other problems.



When obama extended the patriot act, the left got quiet on the patriot act.  i am always amazed how duplicitous they can be. 

as pelosi said, we'll just have to pass it to see what it's really all about.  well now we are finding out.  and the news isn't good.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

A look at O-care in one particularly expensive county:

Obamacare Navigator Hasn't Signed Up Anyone Because It's Too Expensive | The Weekly Standard

Not sure that it signifies anything broader -- just think it's interesting.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

For many, Obama's promise of health care choice does not ring true - CNN.com


----------



## MeBelle (Oct 31, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Truth: He didn't say * to what end * or *which end*...


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

Report: White House exerting 'massive pressure' on insurance companies to keep quiet | The Daily Caller


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

Daniel Henninger: Progressive Government Fails - WSJ.com


----------



## Zoom-boing (Oct 31, 2013)

The left is avoiding this thread like the plague.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 31, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> The left is avoiding this thread like the plague.



the left is more devastating than the plague to the country


----------



## JohnL.Burke (Oct 31, 2013)

Hey! Does anybody remember when there was some sort of government shutdown? It seems so long ago now.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Oct 31, 2013)

There will be no obama implosion the media will prevent it and the low information voter will accept it. That's just the fact of life.


----------



## TRFjr (Oct 31, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



you cant have you liberal cake and eat it too you cant trumpet the low monthly cost of the bronze plan then turn around and trumpet the lower deductible of a silver plan it is either or not both. you cant have the lower monthly rate of the bronze plan with the lower deductible of the silver plan


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Oct 31, 2013)

JohnL.Burke said:


> Hey! Does anybody remember when there was some sort of government shutdown? It seems so long ago now.



Which one are you talking about the one at the beginning of the year or the one two weeks ago?


----------



## JohnL.Burke (Oct 31, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> JohnL.Burke said:
> 
> 
> > Hey! Does anybody remember when there was some sort of government shutdown? It seems so long ago now.
> ...



 I don't know. The shutdown that was supposed to destroy the economy and cause children to die. Oh wait, maybe I'm thinking of the sequester? Sheesh! I can't keep up with all the apocalypses.


----------



## Amelia (Oct 31, 2013)

This is heavy duty.  

Video: CNN's Anderson Cooper Reveals Team Obama Threatens Insurance Providers Who Openly Condemn Obamacare


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 1, 2013)

Amelia said:


> This is heavy duty.
> 
> Video: CNN's Anderson Cooper Reveals Team Obama Threatens Insurance Providers Who Openly Condemn Obamacare



Damn.  This administration is nothing short of despicable.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 1, 2013)

An accurate opinion.



> Beyond that, its helpful to bear in mind the characteristics of the Obama White House. This is the group that for weeks knowingly misled the public on the events surrounding the lethal attacks on the American diplomatic outpost in Benghazi. That claimed that the Affordable Care Act was both a tax and not a tax, depending on what the circumstances required. That hatched the sequestration idea, then denied it, and then blamed Republicans for it. That has perfected the art of stonewalling. That is lawless. And that ran a campaign in 2012 that was unusually vicious and dishonest, up to and including blaming Mitt Romney for the cancer death of a steelworkers wife.
> 
> We have as president a man who routinely slanders his political opponents, distorting what they believe, even as he bemoans the lack of civility in public discourse. He constantly makes assertions that are obviously untrue. And it doesnt matter to him. He keeps doing it because, at least until now, the media has given him something approaching a free pass.
> 
> ...



The Mendacious Mr. Obama « Commentary Magazine


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 1, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> There will be no obama implosion the media will prevent it and the low information voter will accept it. That's just the fact of life.



Needs repeating There will be no obama implosion


----------



## Amelia (Nov 1, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> An accurate opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nailed it!

Bookmarked!


----------



## boedicca (Nov 1, 2013)

Amelia said:


> This is heavy duty.
> 
> Video: CNN's Anderson Cooper Reveals Team Obama Threatens Insurance Providers Who Openly Condemn Obamacare





How Totally Banana Republic, and not in the fashion sense.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 1, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > There will be no obama implosion the media will prevent it and the low information voter will accept it. That's just the fact of life.
> ...



i agree, the media won't get on him, but what i really do beleive will happen is people are going to find out the program isn't what they were expecting.  even if their premiums are paid because they are low income, the ystill won't be able to afford to use it.  then you are going to have the group who are forced to buy it, get little to no subsidies, and then will have a plan they cant afford to use.   what they will be paying in deductibles, they could have normally covered out of pocket anyway.  the plans will not benefit the majority for their day to day requirements, which is most people.   and that is not at all what they are expecting.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 1, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



I agree the only way you'll get the attention of the low information voter is by the wallet. But main stream will deflect it, it will take time, I may be wrong. But if the people haven't had enough by now nothing will do it.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 1, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...


 i think obama and the democrats have a few key strikes that will weigh heavy in the next elections.  Their attack on the 2nd amendment.  this won't impact the low information voter but it will sour many traditional democratic voters  against them. a lot of the swing vote too.  Jobs and the economy.  They are not better and the people impacted still remain impacted.  the economy has only gotten better for people with money.   but obamacare is going to impact a lot of the lower income class voters just above the welfare mark.  they will have minimal to no subsidies and will be forced to pay something against the premium.  and that something is money they don't have.  now they are faced that to used the plan they just bought, it will cost them more money. most won't realize it until they submit that first $600 bill and find out they have ot pay for all of it.   it will also effect a lot of the middle class who currently buy their own insurance and will either see a significant increase in their plans along with higher out of pocket costs, or lose their current plan altogether and end up having to busy something else, no better or even worse.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 1, 2013)

Senate Democrats supported rule that led to insurance cancellations - CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs


----------



## percysunshine (Nov 1, 2013)

At the risk of piling on...well, WTF...it is a Friday;





Obama as a Chess Master...


"...If Obama were a chess master &#8212; or even a fairly adept checkers novice &#8212; he would have known that when you&#8217;re not ready to do something incredibly important, it&#8217;s best to buy time. He could have traded a delay (three months? six months?) for some major budget concessions, maybe even lifting the sequester. Perhaps his base wouldn&#8217;t have liked it, but he could have easily spun the compromise as a necessity given how irrational and &#8220;extreme&#8221; the GOP was being.

Publicly he&#8217;d say he was paying a ransom to &#8220;kidnappers&#8221; and &#8220;hostage takers.&#8221; He&#8217;d denounce Republicans for delaying precious insurance coverage for sick kids and frail oldsters just to score partisan and ideological points.

But privately, ah, privately, the master strategist would be stroking his proverbial white cat &#8212; or, in reality, his hypoallergenic black dog &#8212; while breathing a sigh of relief that he bought himself some time to fix his woefully mangled health-care reform.

Obviously he wouldn&#8217;t want to delay Obamacare. But that decision was out of his hands due to his administration&#8217;s incompetence. The only choice before him was whether he would get the blame for the delay or if the Republicans would.

Why Obama didn&#8217;t do this and why it didn&#8217;t occur to him are good questions. Hubris obviously played a role, as it does in nearly everything this White House does. But the best answer is he didn&#8217;t know how terrible things were over at HHS. In other words, the chess master didn&#8217;t even know what pieces he had on the board, which is usually not something we associate with chess masters. It&#8217;s something we associate with people who don&#8217;t even know how to play the game."



Obama: The Myth of the Master Strategist | National Review Online


----------



## NLT (Nov 1, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > This is heavy duty.
> ...


----------



## Rozman (Nov 1, 2013)

Not only is it worse then we think...
It's probably even worse then that....

The president doesn't care that he lied.
He doesn't even care that he got caught at it.

He's a big government guy who will do whatever he feels  is necessary to save us from ourselves.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 1, 2013)

CBS is back to shilling.  Back to the "premiums will be lower than predicted" line.  If premiums are lower than "predicted", does that mean that families will save even more than $2500 on their premiums?  



> ....
> 
> Once open enrollment is closed, the market for 2014 is set. And in fact, premiums on the exchange for 2014 are going to be lower than predicted. Additionally, consumers will have a wide selection of plans to choose from: an enrollee in one of the 36 states served by HealthCare.gov will be able to choose from an average of 53 different plans.
> 
> ...



Despite major Obamacare problems, a "death spiral" is unlikely - CBS News


----------



## jon_berzerk (Nov 1, 2013)

Amelia said:


> CBS is back to shilling.  Back to the "premiums will be lower than predicted" line.  If premiums are lower than "predicted", does that mean that families will save even more than $2500 on their premiums?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



book handed to Sebelius at the hearing 

--LOL






Sebelius Explains How Obamacare Isn't Like Tickle-Me Elmo - NationalJournal.com


----------



## orBeMezaTtnoD (Nov 2, 2013)

Inspired by Senator Max Baucus


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 2, 2013)

orBeMezaTtnoD said:


> Inspired by Senator Max Baucus



If the egg wasn't rotten, I say make a omelette stuffed with cheeses, ham, mushrooms, sliced green pepper, and chunks of Tomatoes


----------



## percysunshine (Nov 2, 2013)

'The Surge'








When you've lost The New Yorker,,,

.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 2, 2013)




----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 2, 2013)

It's stories like this that will ruin Obama"doesn't"care...

Sticker shock often follows insurance cancellation - Houston Chronicle

He has made the single largest mistake in US history...

Oblammer will supplant Carter as the worst POTUS of the last 100 years, what a f'ing disaster...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 2, 2013)

People are still going to end up being bankrupted by medical bills -- either because they literally can't afford to buy the new insurance or because they decide they'd rather take a chance that their yearly medical bills won't cost as much to pay out of pocket as the new insurance plans' premiums + deductibles would cost.   So they are going to be SOL when something big happens to them. 

Obama hasn't stopped the occurrence of people being bankrupted by medical bills.  He has just shifted it to a new segment of the population, which will include people who were playing by the rules and doing all the right things to take responsibility for their family until Obama came along and pulled the rug out from underneath them.

People who defend this are despicable.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 2, 2013)

LOL.

MSNBC is criticizing the right for changing what they say about Obama in answer to his changing story about why he lied. 

The right attacks Obamacare as "paternalism" | MSNBC

That article, by the way, misses the worst paternalism of all which is, "We lied to you for your own good, because we knew what we wanted wouldn't have passed if we didn't lie," along with Obama's excuse for his endless "you'll like the law once understand it" tour.  From the beginning he blamed the law's unpopularity on our inability to understand how good it was.  Such a condescending bullshit excuse to subvert democratic principles and push through a law which was so bad that he had to lie about it and Congress had to use parliamentary tricks to backdoor it.  

But according to MSNBC the right is in the wrong for changing what they say as they try to keep up with Obama's slippery sliminess.


----------



## Sunshine (Nov 2, 2013)

Amelia said:


> People are still going to end up being bankrupted by medical bills -- either because they literally can't afford to buy the new insurance or because they decide they'd rather take a chance that their yearly medical bills won't cost as much to pay out of pocket as the new insurance plans' premiums + deductibles would cost.   So they are going to be SOL when something big happens to them.
> 
> Obama hasn't stopped the occurrence of people being bankrupted by medical bills.  He has just shifted it to a new segment of the population, which will include people who were playing by the rules and doing all the right things to take responsibility for their family until Obama came along and pulled the rug out from underneath them.
> 
> People who defend this are despicable.



6 people signed up for Obamacare on the first day!

Internal notes indicate only 6 people signed up for ObamaCare on first day | Fox News


----------



## Amelia (Nov 2, 2013)

The site is shut down again today.  Hopefully  they'll get it up and running soon so that people can get back to seeing how badly Obama deceived them.


----------



## Antares (Nov 2, 2013)

Amelia said:


> The site is shut down again today.  Hopefully  they'll get it up and running soon so that people can get back to seeing how badly Obama deceived them.



It will be shut down today and tomorrow..I just got an email from CMS


----------



## Antares (Nov 2, 2013)

Just got a follow up, they think it will be online by 9 a.m. tomorrow


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 2, 2013)

I just went on to the site.  Still can't get any actual info on plans/prices other than the generic shit they spew.  It still says this:  You'll get final quotes for specific plans based on your income and household after you complete a Marketplace application.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 2, 2013)

So not until you give them your personal information?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 2, 2013)

Amelia said:


> So not until you give them your personal information?



As far as I can tell.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 2, 2013)

Amelia said:


> So not until you give them your personal information?


Fuck the bastards


----------



## percysunshine (Nov 2, 2013)

Where is James O'Keefe when you need him? Last I heard of Jimmy was when he registered to vote as Attorney General Eric Holder, in Holders voting precinct, without a valid ID.

Maybe he could sign up Michelle Obama for Obamacare at Healthcare.gov....just for fun.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 4, 2013)

Top hospitals opt out of Obamacare « Watchdog.org


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 4, 2013)

Just tried to get info on plans again.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 4, 2013)

Another sort-of-interesting-but-not-sure-what-it-means story:

Insurance premiums differ across border with Minnesota | Post-Crescent Media | postcrescent.com



Some people are trying to blame the premium disparity on Minnesota setting up its own exchange and Wisconsin not, but this article says not.  Part of the problem is that to get the low rates Minnesota offers plans with less doctor choice which aren't available in Wisconsin.  And the disparity isn't in Minnesota's favor across the board.  Some parts of Minnesota will be more expensive than some parts of Wisconsin.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 4, 2013)

49-State Analysis: Obamacare To Increase Individual-Market Premiums By Average Of 41% - Forbes

49-State Analysis: Obamacare To Increase Individual-Market Premiums By Average Of 41%


----------



## Amelia (Nov 4, 2013)

An unintentional follow-up to my last post, on the subject of geographical cost disparities and limited choice:



> Before the Affordable Care Act, health-insurance policies could not be sold across state lines; now policies sold on the Affordable Care Act exchanges may not be offered across county lines.



That is from a woman who may lose her life savings or even die because of Obamacare. 



A Stage-4 Gallblader Cancer Survivor Says: I Am One of ObamaCare's Losers - WSJ.com




> ....
> 
> Since March 2007 United Healthcare has paid $1.2 million to help keep me alive, and it has never once questioned any treatment or procedure recommended by my medical team. The company pays a fair price to the doctors and hospitals, on time, and is responsive to the emergency treatment requirements of late-stage cancer. Its caring people in the claims office have been readily available to talk to me and my providers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 4, 2013)

Ex-Obama aide: Health care rollout 'big embarrassment'

Ex-Obama aide: Health care rollout 'big embarrassment'


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 4, 2013)

Former Obama Administration Official: Obama Will 'Pay Price' For Healthcare Promise Reversal

Former Obama Administration Official: Obama Will 'Pay Price' For Healthcare Promise Reversal. 
By Benjamin Bell 
23 hours ago
 ...


...Content preferences ....Done ..
....
This morning on "This Week," Crossfire co-host Van Jones, a former Obama administration official, said the president would "pay a price," for reversing course on his now famous promise that those Americans who like their plans could keep them if them if they wished under Obamacare.

""And he overpromised. And he will, listen, he will pay a price. 'Mission accomplished,' you pay a price. 'No new taxes,' you pay a price. 'You keep your plan,' you pay a price," Jones said.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 4, 2013)

11 Outrageous #FailedObamacareSlogans: You're Welcome!

Sam Pierson  @ Misterdishmiami 
#FailedObamacareSlogans From the people that brought you Detroit.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 4, 2013)

More lies from Obama..


*White House Admits All Obamacare Signups Must Go Through Healthcare.gov*
White House Admits All Obamacare Signups Must Go Through Healthcare.gov | CNS News


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 4, 2013)

My brother, 55, single, individual catastrophic plan with IBC went to meeting held by IBC this afternoon.  About 30 people were there (they have these meetings scheduled from mid-October through November, different places and times), none of the people attending were under 50, all had had their IBC plan cancelled due to (un)aca.  

He said the presentation was extremely well organized and while complex, with a lot of information, well laid-out.  Three people presenting/answering questions.  Website provided for the people to sign up on, review plans, etc.  The whole meeting was like a well-oiled machine.  Yeah, good luck with the freaking government running anything like a well-oiled machine.  The good news?  He's now covered for maternity, newborn, pediatric care (including vision and dental).  The bad news?  He's now covered for maternity, newborn, pediatric care (including vision and dental).  No vision or dental included for him in that plan though.  Final cost is still tbd, depending upon plan, but so far?  At least double his premium and nearly double his deductible.  

Fuck. You. obama and dems.  But seriously.

We are in the process of renewing our insurance with the hubs company, I am expecting similar numbers as my brother.


----------



## mamooth (Nov 4, 2013)

Why the ACA is such a big winner for the Democrats -- it makes things better for 14%, worse for 3%. And "14" is a lot more votes than "3".

CHART: 'Winners And Losers From Obamacare'


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 4, 2013)

mamooth said:


> Why the ACA is such a big winner for the Democrats -- it makes things better for 14%, worse for 3%. And "14" is a lot more votes than "3".
> 
> CHART: 'Winners And Losers From Obamacare'



Only in liberal zombie land does a guy, child, or older woman paying for newborn, maternity, pediatric care = higher quality health plan.  Shoot them.  Please.


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 4, 2013)

MyCancellation.com


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 4, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > Why the ACA is such a big winner for the Democrats -- it makes things better for 14%, worse for 3%. And "14" is a lot more votes than "3".
> ...



The chart leaves out illegal immigrants and the middle class families who will be going bankrupt in < two years after paying into 'the system"

Very Odd graph posted by someone who only deals in 'facts'...not theories.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 4, 2013)

New Obama talking points more lies on top of lies...I didn't say what I said 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frE6bR5Jwdk]Obama: "Higher standard" may prevent you from keeping your health care plan - YouTube[/ame]

You didn't hear this...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LRcLMScEqo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LRcLMScEqo[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 4, 2013)

It's nauseating to be lied to like that.  If it were only an occasional prevarication ... you know, say, once every couple of months, that wouldn't be so bad.  

But it's so many lies.  So often.  He speaks so damn much and odds are there's going to be a lie in any given speech.

So insulting that he thinks we're so manipulable.  Well, some of us are.  The question is whether they'll admit now that they fell for it for so long.  Hard to come back in once you have gotten so far out on a limb.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 4, 2013)

"Better for everybody"?

What is Obama going  to do for Edie Sundby?   I want him to call her and record the call so we know how he tries to convince her that he has made the market better for her.

I want him to call my friend who can no longer afford pain management therapy because Obama and his "we know what's best for you" colleagues caused her deduction to go so high that she can no longer afford the care she had before he interfered in her life.

*insert dirty word here*

I am SO angry on behalf of my friend and on behalf of all America.  The ends do not justify the means.  Obama raped the democratic process and has no shame about it.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Nov 4, 2013)

Amelia said:


> It's nauseating to be lied to like that.  If it were only an occasional prevarication ... you know, say, once every couple of months, that wouldn't be so bad.
> 
> But it's so many lies.  So often.  He speaks so damn much and odds are there's going to be a lie in any given speech.
> 
> So insulting that he thinks we're so manipulable.  Well, some of us are.  The question is whether they'll admit now that they fell for it for so long.  Hard to come back in once you have gotten so far out on a limb.



I say send the bill for Obamacare waste and corruption to Obama/Democrat voters.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 4, 2013)

Just wait till next year when the employer mandate kicks in.  Millions more will lose the plan they like.  You know, the one they were told by the president of the United States, in plain English, that they could keep.  Period.

Oh wait ... we didn't hear that.  (reps to jroc for that)


----------



## Jroc (Nov 5, 2013)

Another clueless liberal who has no idea what her party passed into law... New talking point?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDt1plYvx7w]Feinstein on Obamacare - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 5, 2013)

The Obamacare website has been fixed.  The problem was with the computer.  A tube had blown.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 5, 2013)

Affordable Care Act could prompt leaders to hire substitute teachers from employment agency - TriCities.com: Local News




> BRISTOL , Va. &#8211; City school leaders could decide next month to get substitute teachers from an employment agency due to cost concerns related to the Affordable Care Act.
> 
> On Monday, the city School Board tabled a proposal to contract with Kelly Educational Services for substitute teachers. The board is now expected to make that decision at its December meeting.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 5, 2013)

Lying About Lies: Why Credibility Matters to Obama - NationalJournal.com



> It might not seem possible that President Obama could do more harm to his credibility and the public's faith in government than misleading Americans about health insurance reform. But he can. The president is now misleading the public about his deception.
> 
> ....


----------



## Amelia (Nov 5, 2013)

The Obamacare Speech He Never Gave | RealClearPolitics

Hmmmmm ....


----------



## Amelia (Nov 5, 2013)

Best of the Web Today: How Low Can They Go? - WSJ.com


----------



## Amelia (Nov 5, 2013)

The Hidden Marriage Penalty in Obamacare




> The first time I heard Nona Willis Aronowitz talk about getting divorced to save money on health insurance I thought she couldn't really be serious. We were at Monte's, an old Italian place in South Brooklyn, having dinner with a group of New York women writers in late July.
> 
> "Don't do it!" I urged her, certain, having watched my friends over the years, that no matter how casually she or her husband might treat the piece of paper that says they are married, getting unhitched would inevitably change their relationship as profoundly as getting hitched in the first place.
> 
> But with the arrival of the Affordable Care Act's insurance exchanges, the question for Nona and her husband Aaron Cassara moved from the realm of casual conversation to a real financial conundrum. ....


----------



## koshergrl (Nov 5, 2013)

"in similarly rhapsodic Oregon over on the west coast, the malfunctioning exchange website has entirely reduced the state to sifting through paper applications. They _still_ have yet to enroll even a single Oregonian, NPR reports:
When Cover Oregon opened Oct. 1, executive director Rocky King was excited. He&#8217;d been preparing for years. &#8220;Day one, we are accepting applications. And staff at the Oregon Health Authority and Cover Oregon are ready to process those applications,&#8221; he said on opening day.
Back then, King conceded there were still glitches with the website, but he said that by mid-to-late October they&#8217;d be worked out. Now it&#8217;s November, and it&#8217;s clear that a quick fix is not in the cards. So Cover Oregon has turned to old-fashioned paper applications. People can either download one off the website, or have somebody walk them through it. &#8230;
The paper application is 20 pages long and asks for everything from names and the number of people in your household to pension contributions and alimony payments.
That means Cover Oregon staff will comb through documents to determine if the person is eligible for a tax credit or for Medicaid. The sporadic functionality of the federal government&#8217;s HealthCare.gov website means this eligibility check is a problem."

​NPR: Oregon?s exchange might actually be doing worse than the federal site « Hot Air


Oregon's State Exchange May Be Worse Than HealthCare.gov : Shots - Health News : NPR


----------



## koshergrl (Nov 5, 2013)

I'm going to tell my kids to become doctors:

"
This fall, millions of uninsured Americans seeking health insurance, many for the first time, overwhelmed the unprepared federal website, still under repair, built to give it to them. Next year, the same people, all heading to hospitals and physicians&#8217; offices ready to make use of their new coverage, could crash something more tangible: the U.S. health care system itself.
America is running out of doctors, and next year&#8217;s influx of patients will strain the current supply. The nation will be 91,500 physicians short by 2020, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. By 2025, that number is expected to swell to more than 130,600.
Next year, the demand will be highest for primary-care physicians, such as general internists, family doctors, and pediatricians&#8212;the kinds of doctors many people go to first for nonemergency medical attention before seeing specialists. Last winter, an _Annals of Family Medicine_ study predicted the country will need 52,000 more primary-care physicians by 2025."

America Is Running Out of Doctors - NationalJournal.com


----------



## Jroc (Nov 5, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpa-5JdCnmo]36 Times Obama Said You Could Keep Your Health Care Plan - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jroc (Nov 5, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz4iFDdRP8U]Obamacare Website Now Giving Out Personal Information - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 5, 2013)

criminal


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 6, 2013)

Does anyone know if the Rs are doing anything atm to try and delay this?  I know of the "Keep Your Health Plan" bill put out by Upton, but are the Rs doing anything else?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 6, 2013)

CBS: 'White House Had Years of Warnings' About ObamaCare Debacle


----------



## Jroc (Nov 6, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> Does anyone know if the Rs are doing anything atm to try and delay this?  I know of the "Keep Your Health Plan" bill put out by Upton, but are the Rs doing anything else?



Lots of Dems are joining in on that. Obama my delay it a couple months who knows


----------



## Amelia (Nov 7, 2013)

25,000 Alabama children to be added to Medicaid rolls - WSFA.com: News Weather and Sports for Montgomery, AL.


Alabama children are finding the "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" pledge broken.  They're being forced out of an excellent insurance program and into Medicaid.  I learned about this from my friend whose granddaughter has lost her doctor because her doctors and the hospital where the girl got her surgery don't take Medicaid.  It's not clear yet whether there will be any lapse in her rehab.  The parents are still scrambling for information.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 7, 2013)

Has the anticipated level of fraud and related costs been mentioned yet?

FBI Gears Up As Nearly 17M Poised to Get ObamaCare Tax Credits | Fox Business


----------



## Amelia (Nov 7, 2013)

Wait! What?  Did we finally get an apology from Obama -- and a mention of helping the people whose finances he has crashed with more expensive policies? 

I'm amazed.  As long as he has held out, I wasn't sure he'd ever bite the bullet and apologize.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 7, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR3_mM4bpCY]Obamacare by Morning CMA Awards Carrie Underwood & Brad Paisley - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 7, 2013)

Rule lets unions avoid ObamaCare tax | New York Post




> The Obama administration sneaked in a rule that would let some labor unions off the hook for an ObamaCare tax.
> 
> After publicly rejecting the unions request for an exemption, the Department of Health and Human Services last week quietly gave the unions a pass on what would have been a massive tax hit.
> 
> ....


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 7, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Wait! What?  Did we finally get an apology from Obama -- and a mention of helping the people whose finances he has crashed with more expensive policies?
> 
> I'm amazed.  As long as he has held out, I wasn't sure he'd ever bite the bullet and apologize.



Nope, was changed to 'regret'.



MeBelle60 said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> > Obama on health plan cancellations: 'I am sorry' | MSNBC
> ...



http://nypost.com/2013/11/07/obama-says-hes-sorry-americans-losing-insurance/

WASHINGTON &#8212; President Obama is apologizing that some Americans are losing their insurance &#8212; and referenced assurances that he gave the American people during his reelection campaign that they could keep their health plans.
&#8220;I am sorry that they are finding themselves in this situation based on assurances they got from me,&#8221; Obama said.
&#8220;We&#8217;ve got to work hard to make sure that they know we hear them and we are going to do everything we can to deal with folks who find themselves in a tough position as a consequence of this,&#8221; Obama told NBC News at the White House on Thursday.
It&#8217;s the most personal expression of regret yet from the administration, which for weeks has been acknowledging the failures of the botched Obamacare web site that was created so that Americans can buy insurance.
On Tuesday, White House press secretary Jay Carney apologized that the web site wasn&#8217;t providing needed information to people getting notices that they were losing private insurance. &#8220;That&#8217;s on us and I accept that,&#8221; Carney said Tuesday.

OK-here it is again!
I screen shot it this time!


----------



## Amelia (Nov 7, 2013)

Transcript:  

VIDEO: Watch Obama (kinda, sorta) apologize to Americans losing their health plans


The lies continue:

"And in good faith, tried to write the law in such a way that people could keep their care."




"And I am sorry that they-- you know, are finding themselves in this situation, based on assurances they got from me."

What does _that_ mean?


----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 7, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Transcript:
> 
> VIDEO: Watch Obama (kinda, sorta) apologize to Americans losing their health plans
> 
> ...



It means he is a f'ing lying sack of shit...

Exclusive: Obama personally apologizes for Americans losing health coverage - U.S. News

Isn't it special that NBC has changed their motto to "The Cover Obama's Ass Network" what a wonderful group of reporters and producers...

Live from Nancy *"I don't know shit"* Pelosi let's pass it so we know what's in it? 

And you want to tell me some of our brightest minds live in her district? ROFLMAO...

Put her out to pasture CA District 12 voters, you appear to be as dumb as she is...

But he said he's Sorry........ 

His sheep will lap this up like sweet cream...

The dumbest f'ing humans walking the planet...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 7, 2013)

NBC loves getting interviews with Obama.  Naturally they'll put the best interpretation they can on his slimy utterances on those occasions.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 8, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Transcript:
> 
> VIDEO: Watch Obama (kinda, sorta) apologize to Americans losing their health plans
> 
> ...




Obama's pathetic apology isn't going to do much as people continue loose their insurance


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 8, 2013)

Amelia said:


> 25,000 Alabama children to be added to Medicaid rolls - WSFA.com: News Weather and Sports for Montgomery, AL.
> 
> 
> Alabama children are finding the "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" pledge broken.  They're being forced out of an excellent insurance program and into Medicaid.  I learned about this from my friend whose granddaughter has lost her doctor because her doctors and the hospital where the girl got her surgery don't take Medicaid.  It's not clear yet whether there will be any lapse in her rehab.  The parents are still scrambling for information.



does anybody pay for anything on their own anymore?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 8, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Transcript:
> 
> VIDEO: Watch Obama (kinda, sorta) apologize to Americans losing their health plans
> 
> ...



Flat. Out. Lie.

Read this from the WH blog, 2010:

Keeping the Plan You Like | The White House


HHS changed the grandf-father rule, though, to benefit group coverage_ only_ but nnot individual coverage.



> In November 2010, HHS modified the regulation to provide even further flexibility for larger companies, even allowing them to change insurance providers without losing grandfathered status, despite already giving them favorable treatment. According to the HHS fact-check:
> 
> Previously, one of the ways an employer group health plan could lose its grandfather status was if the employer changed issuers  switching from one insurance company to another. The original regulation only allowed self-funded plans to change third-party administrators without necessarily losing their grandfathered plan status. *Todays amendment allows all group health plans to switch insurance companies and shop for the same coverage at a lower cost while maintaining their grandfathered status, so long as the structure of the coverage doesnt violate one of the other rules for maintaining grandfathered plan status.*
> 
> By comparison,* HHS regulations for individual insurance coverage ensured that relatively minor changes to these plans  for example, an increase in the deductible above a certain amount  would result in these plans losing grandfathered status. Whereas the regulations allowed businesses to swap out one insurance carrier for another, buyers in the individual insurance market could not even change plans with the same carrier without losing protected status*.



obama KNEW from Nov 2010 on that millions with individual policies would be losing their plans yet he continuously touted the 'if you like your plan you can keep your plan, period' line.  No mention/clarification that this pertained to group policies only, no mention that individual policies couldn't even have a premium increase without being cancelled.  HE LIED and anyone who defends him on this is nothing short of a raving loon.

Also note this massive obama dodge (it's what he doessss):



> During a White House meeting with President Obama in February 2010, then-House Minority Whip Eric Cantor challenged the President directly about his repeated claims that Americans would be able to keep their existing insurance plans if they desired. The Presidents response was that they were not being forced to change, but that they would do so voluntarily in order to get a better deal.
> 
> The eight to nine million Americans that you refer that might have to change their health insurancekeep in mind out of the 300 million Americans that were talking aboutwould be folks who the CBOthe Congressional Budget Officeestimates would find the deal in the exchange better, would be a better deal, Obama said in response to a question from Cantor. So yes, they would change coverage because theyve got more choice and competition.
> 
> *Only four months later, President Obamas administration would release the regulations, ensuring that most of the seventeen million people with individual coverage would lose their plans, whether they liked them or not*.


  The last bolded?  Once again, proof that obama outright lied to millions.  

Obama modified 'grandfathering' rules to benefit businesses | The Daily Caller


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 8, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Transcript:
> 
> VIDEO: Watch Obama (kinda, sorta) apologize to Americans losing their health plans
> 
> ...




Where does it say that he's sorry for lying to people about being able to keep their plan if they like it?  Lame-assed president gives lame-assed "apology".


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

Weasel-in-chief


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

CBS: White House Granted Itself Waiver to Launch ObamaCare Website With High Security Risk


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

That CBS story I just posted is old news now -- that was from Monday.


Question of the hour:  Now that Obama has said something which the media can take as an apology no matter how dishonest it was, will they keep sharing the bad news about O-care?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

Obama Burns Media Supporters with Apology | Mediaite


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

Obamacare adviser says healthcare website encountering new issues



> The Obama administration's HealthCare.gov adviser Jeffrey Zeints said on Friday that the trouble-plagued federal healthcare website is improving, but that higher volumes of visitors are exposing new capacity and software issues.
> 
> In a conference call with reporters, Zeints said progress this week has been marred by roadblocks. He described HealthCare.gov as being "a long way from where it needs to be."
> 
> The administration is struggling to resolve problems with the website by the end of November, when it has pledged to have the system operating smoothly for the vast number of users including uninsured people interested in obtaining subsidized private health insurance.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

The prevaricator-in-chief takes a swipe at Jindal while a guest in Louisiana.  Obama is incapable of focusing on common ground.  He has to show his ass.  Good for Jindal in fighting back.  

Obama spars with Louisiana governor over healthcare law | Reuters


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 8, 2013)

Amelia said:


> The prevaricator-in-chief takes a swipe at Jindal while a guest in Louisiana.  Obama is incapable of focusing on common ground.  He has to show his ass.  Good for Jindal in fighting back.
> 
> Obama spars with Louisiana governor over healthcare law | Reuters



If you get the time, or are inclined to do so, check out how Jindal has revamped *health care *in LA.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

Not sure how to look that up.  Any leads?


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 8, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Not sure how to look that up.  Any leads?



Jindal looks to privatize health care programs | News | The Advocate ? Baton Rouge, LA


About Bobby Jindal - Governor Bobby Jindal | State of Louisiana


Gov. Bobby Jindal on ObamaCare rollout, dysfunction in Washington; Reps. Becerra, Blackburn talk changes to individual mandate | Interviews | Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace - Fox News




> JINDAL: Chris, I think we need to do health care reform from the bottom up. This is what we do in Louisiana. We're the only state that has a state operated network of charity hospitals. We transformed those. We had 10 state operated hospitals when I became governor.
> 
> Now, nine of those are public/private partnerships, saving taxpayers over $100 million, improving the quality of care for example in Baton Rouge, going from a 10-day wait to a 10-minute wait to get prescriptions. Six-month wait for cancer services in another city where they're seeing specialists now right now, to another city like Charleston where if you had a broken bone or if you need special service that a lot of times, you had to travel many miles, and now you can get that care locally partnering with the private sector. In our managed care and our Medicaid program, we took 900,000 individuals got them into private insurance plans where they're getting preventative care and primary care, again, saving taxpayers another $100 million improving health care outcomes.
> 
> ...



Read the entire transcript. Good stuff!


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

Thanks!


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

Poor Richard's News - Obamacare nixes cancer patient's insurance; new plan is so expensive he's decided to die in peace


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

Colorado Woman Who Championed Obamacare Loses Insurance Plan « CBS Denver


----------



## Amelia (Nov 8, 2013)

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/323368-what-obama-knew-and-when-he-knew-it.html

February 2010 -- Obama making it clear he knew people would lose their coverage


----------



## Jroc (Nov 9, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1vqMU3X9dw]Democrats Have Inventive Excuses for Obama's 'Keep Your Plan' Promise - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 9, 2013)

lol ... sad and hilarious


----------



## Amelia (Nov 9, 2013)

"I have been as clear as I could be -- if you like your health care plan you keep your health care plan"


These people are evil and insulting and I don't understand how their supporters can accept that the people they elected would have so little respect for their intelligence.  

Welcome to Wonderland.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 9, 2013)

President Obama Job Approval
RCP Average
Approve 41.9
Disapprove 52.9
Spread -11.0


----------



## Amelia (Nov 10, 2013)

Lipstick on the Obamacare pig | Las Vegas Review-Journal


----------



## Jroc (Nov 10, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxqhBb8LM6s]KRCR-CA: ObamaCare Causing A California Nonprofit To Terminate Insurance For Workers - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 10, 2013)

If you like more competition between insurers, you can't have it | WashingtonExaminer.com



> First, President Obama said that if you like your health care plan, you can keep it. Now he has shifted to arguing that you shouldn't have liked it, but he's sorry if his deception caused you any inconvenience.
> 
> Not to say this argument is going over well, but it might be harder still to defend his promise that you could keep your doctor.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 10, 2013)

I continue to see articles saying that Republican opposition to the implementation of Obamacare is threatening our democracy.

This enrages me.  No one who supports Obamacare has any ground to stand on whatsoever with regard to our democracy.  If the people claiming that Republicans should essentially just "lie back and think of England" cared about democracy, they would care about the fraud Obama and his confederates deliberately perpetrated on the American people to pass Obamacare and to obscure the realities of Obamacare until it was too late for the people to do anything about it electorally.  

That was the blow to democracy.  Supporting Obamacare in any way is agreeing that democracy means jack sh*t.  And I still don't agree.  Obama and his partners in fraud haven't lowered me to that level of noncaring yet.  I still have fight left in me.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 10, 2013)

Obamacare options grim for young people -- Katrina Trinko, USA Today


----------



## Jroc (Nov 10, 2013)

Amelia said:


> I continue to see articles saying that Republican opposition to the implementation of Obamacare is threatening our democracy.
> 
> This enrages me.  No one who supports Obamacare has any ground to stand on whatsoever with regard to our democracy.  If the people claiming that Republicans should essentially just "lie back and think of England" cared about democracy, they would care about the fraud Obama and his confederates deliberately perpetrated on the American people to pass Obamacare and to obscure the realities of Obamacare until it was too late for the people to do anything about it electorally.
> 
> That was the blow to democracy.  Supporting Obamacare in any way is agreeing that democracy means jack sh*t.  And I still don't agree.  Obama and his partners in fraud haven't lowered me to that level of noncaring yet.  I still have fight left in me.




It's not about healthcare, it's about government control


----------



## Amelia (Nov 11, 2013)

Obamacare Is Running Out of Bullets - Bloomberg


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 11, 2013)

Daily Presidential Tracking Poll - Rasmussen Reports?


----------



## boedicca (Nov 11, 2013)

There is one Really Great Thing about ObamaCare:

It is the Moment We've Been Waiting for When Progressivism Finally Jumps The Shark.

So the best thing to do is just to stand back and let it crumble under its own unsustainable weight.

Obama's Latest Lie (this one about not adding One Dime to the Deficit):  the Obamanoids are considering raising the subsidy to 5X the poverty rate, thus increasing the O-Care spending by $1.2T over a 5 year period.

Hopenchange!


----------



## Callas_Dowboys (Nov 11, 2013)

Moonglow said:


> Why of course. It's Oblama's fault that we must have auto insurance or face a penalty, no mortgage insurance, like hell, you are forced to have it.



Except no one is forced to have auto or mortgage insurance.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 11, 2013)

Report: White House might expand eligibility for ObamaCare subsidies | TheHill


How much has this already cost?  And for what gains?  What losses?  How much is it still going to cost to fix this wonderful thing Obama foisted on us through fraud?


----------



## Jroc (Nov 11, 2013)

Yes run on Obamacare...




> Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida, the chair of the Democratic National Committee, said on CNNs State of the Union on Sunday that Democratic congressional candidates would win by running on Obamacare in the 2014 midterm elections. I think, actually, Candy, that Democratic candidates will be able to run on ObamaCare as an advantage leading into the 2014 election, Wasserman Schultz told host Candy Crowley


.

Wasserman Schultz: Democrats Will Win in 2014 Running on Obamacare | CNS News


----------



## Amelia (Nov 11, 2013)

LOL.  She's a trip.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 11, 2013)

Amelia said:


> LOL.  She's a trip.



Shes so far up Obama's...... She cant think straight


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 12, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Report: White House might expand eligibility for ObamaCare subsidies | TheHill
> 
> 
> How has this already cost?  And for what gains?  What losses?  How much is it still going to cost to fix this wonderful thing Obama foisted on us through fraud?



Butttt.... it's the Law Of The Land!  It Can't Be Changed!!


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 12, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Yes run on Obamacare...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep let's hope they are smart enough to run on obamacare.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 12, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Report: White House might expand eligibility for ObamaCare subsidies | TheHill
> 
> 
> How has this already cost?  And for what gains?  What losses?  How much is it still going to cost to fix this wonderful thing Obama foisted on us through fraud?



Since when can the law of the land be over ridden or changed by a single person?


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 12, 2013)

One of the most touted benefits of President Obamas health care overhaul law is the provision allows parents to keep their adult children on their health insurance until age 26.

TRICARE, the Department of Defense program that provides health coverage to active duty and retired military members and their families, only covers young adult dependents up until age 21, or age 23 if they are enrolled full-time in college.

Military members, veterans missing out on key ObamaCare provision | Fox News

This is messed up!


----------



## Jroc (Nov 12, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QixlbkyKimg]Obamas New Line if you like your complete lack of coverage, you can keep your complete lack of cover - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 12, 2013)

Low Obamacare Enrollment More Proof of a ?Disaster? - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 12, 2013)

Health care law could be liability for Democrats


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 12, 2013)

wow,  so far obamcare has provided a net loss of insurance coverage

The Obamacare Exchange Scorecard: Around 100,000 Enrollees And Five Million Cancellations - Forbes


----------



## Katzndogz (Nov 12, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> One of the most touted benefits of President Obamas health care overhaul law is the provision allows parents to keep their adult children on their health insurance until age 26.
> 
> TRICARE, the Department of Defense program that provides health coverage to active duty and retired military members and their families, only covers young adult dependents up until age 21, or age 23 if they are enrolled full-time in college.
> 
> ...



When people heard that they could keep their adult children on their insurance until age 26, they were very happy because they would get to keep their children on their insurance policies for free.   When they found out how much the policies for 26 year olds were, it wasn't that attractive, especially since 26 year olds have to pay more than sick people.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2013)

The ObamaCare Potemkin Village is getting more and more populated.   Not only are the Obamonoids planning to count as Enrolled people who have only put a plan in their shopping cart, they armies of Navigators are ACORN Fraudsters!  Hopenchange!

 The Truth about Navigators:

_...This time, his undercover investigators focused on Obamacares navigators, the nearly 50,000 people who, in the words of the Department of Health and Human Services, will serve as an in-person resource for Americans who want additional assistance in shopping for and enrolling in plans on the Obamacare exchanges (at least when theyre finally working). The total value of grants doled out for nonprofits and community organizations to hire navigators has topped $67 million nationwide, and some of the money is going to a group run by ACORNs highly controversial founder. 

The events of OKeefes video of a Texas navigator site run by the National Urban League are a familiar sight to viewers of his past efforts exposing Medicaid and voter fraud. Government-paid workers supposedly trained to uphold the law advise clients on how to lie on government forms, evade legal requirements, and ignore proper procedures.

You lie because your premiums will be higher, one navigator advises an investigator for OKeefes Project Veritas, who tells the worker he sometimes smokes. Dont tell them that. Dont tell em.

The investigator then poses as a low-income worker at a university who has unreported cash income on the side, worrying about how that might affect his premium subsidies. Thats no problem for a navigator, who says, Dont get yourself in trouble by declaring it now.

Yeah, it didnt happen, another navigator says. One more chimes in: Never report it.

Records show that the National Urban League was paid $376,000 by the federal government for its Obamacare outreach in Texas...._


The Truth about Navigators | National Review Online


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 12, 2013)

Earl Pomeroy Doesn?t Regret the Obamacare Vote That Ended His Career - The Daily Beast


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Kay Hagan on the Ropes | National Review Online



> The Obamacare rollout has been almost universally problematic, but North Carolina is having a particularly rough time, which could spell trouble for Senator Kay Hagan (D., N.C.), who is beginning to look vulnerable heading into 2014.
> 
> The state is experiencing many of the problems typically associated with the controversial law. Local businesses are cutting hours; individuals (at least 160,000 of them) are losing their existing insurance plans and now face premium costs that have more than doubled as a result of Obamacare. In some cases, premiums have jumped by more than 400 percent, and federal subsidies arent nearly enough to offset to the cost.
> 
> ....


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

For once I'm grateful for Obama's hypocrisy -- by pushing off the employer mandate he has pushed off the stories reporting on how that will affect jobs and insurance coverage.  

At least I'm grateful if the timing works out as I hope.

The news about that should start hitting the waves about a month before the 2014 election.  

Of course the media could try to sit on it until after the election but I don't _think_ they'll be so inclined to do that this time around.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

From August, but still excellent:

Obamacare's Hierarchy of Privilege | National Review Online


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Old news for us .... but still being thrust into the spotlight so this is good.  And lots of good quotes from multiple legislators:

Fact check: If you like your health plan, you can keep it -- USA Today


----------



## Doubletap (Nov 12, 2013)

What a vile & arrogant despot Obama & his supporters are. To come between individuals & their doctors, with their rules of how, what & when they will get their care is something straight out of the Socialist playbook. To hell with them!


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Low Obamacare enrollment numbers: Sign of problems to come? - CSMonitor.com


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Bill Clinton Scolds Obama On Obamacare - Business Insider


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Death by Obamacare: 'Reform' reams cancer patients | New York Post




> ObamaCare is supposed to be a huge boon for anyone with a pre-existing condition. Count that another promise broken: Its actually denying care because of pre-existing conditions.
> 
> Millions of Americans with cancer and other chronic illnesses will wind up paying more for lifesaving care, if they can get it all.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Poll: Obama approval ratings drop, Americans say he's not trustworthy -- CNN Political Ticker

Sanity is returning to America.


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 12, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



So where's the silver lining?

Fact is, there is none. 


We can't afford to subsidize all of the people that will apply for Obamacare. It's going to create another tax that will be taken out of our paychecks, or it will increase the debt. My guess is it will do both. Anyone who is stupid enough to sign up risks having their identity stolen by hackers because the site isn't even remotely secure. 

But according to Obama it pays for itself and we can all keep our insurance if we like it.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> g5000 said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...




Maybe we'll all get lucky and the people that ObamaCare Navigators sell our identities to will get socked with the taxes.


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 12, 2013)

boedicca said:


> The ObamaCare Potemkin Village is getting more and more populated.   Not only are the Obamonoids planning to count as Enrolled people who have only put a plan in their shopping cart, they armies of Navigators are ACORN Fraudsters!  Hopenchange!
> 
> The Truth about Navigators:
> 
> ...



Trust us.......


......we know what we're doing.......


----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks to Oblammer we didn't lose our health insurance...

No today in my inbox was a notice from HR that on 1/1/2014 I will pay $43.67 more per month, that's $524.04 more per year for the Annual Fee on Health Insurers and Transitional Reinsurance Contribution Fee...

Gotta Love the f'ing Liberal POS, doesn't he know he isn't Robin Hood?

Less than a $100 dollars away from $5K a year now...

Can't wait until I am retired...


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 12, 2013)

Obamacare...........grrrrrrrrrrr


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Obama in Bind Trying to Keep Health Law Vow -- NY Times


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Troubled HealthCare.gov unlikely to work fully by end of November, as White House vowed - The Washington Post




> Software problems with the federal online health insurance marketplace, especially in handling high volumes, are proving so stubborn that the system is unlikely to work fully by the end of the month as the White House has promised, according to an official with knowledge of the project.
> 
> The insurance exchange is balking when more than 20,000 to 30,000 people attempt to use it at the same time &#8212; about half its intended capacity, said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to disclose internal information. And CGI Federal, the main contractor that built the site, has succeeded in repairing only about six of every 10 of the defects it has addressed so far.
> 
> ....


----------



## Amelia (Nov 12, 2013)

Interesting piece by Peggy Noonan.

ObamaCare Is the Story -  WSJ



Down near the end she points out that when Democrats accuse Republicans of sabotaging Obamacare, they're admitting that O-care is effed up.  They've given up on trying to pretend that it's good and are looking for someone else to blame other than their own bad judgment.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 13, 2013)

Obama math..




> *Who counts as an Obamacare enrollee? The Obama administration settles on a definition.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> The administration plans to use this count of enrollees because that's where their interaction with the healthcare.gov site ends, the administration official said. Insurance plans, rather than the federal government, are responsible for collecting the first month's premium.
> 
> The shopping cart on healthcare.gov only contains space for one health plan, meaning the consumer must have gotten far enough to settle on a specific option




Who counts as an Obamacare enrollee? The Obama administration settles on a definition.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 13, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Obama math..
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The definition is FRAUDULENT.   Until somebody actually purchases ObamaCare and pays for it, it's just sitting in a shopping cart.  If Amazon did that to inflate its revenue, it would be charged with fraud.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 13, 2013)

Obama supporter miffed at botched healthcare rollout - latimes.com




> Margaret Davis of West L.A. voted for President Obama and appreciates the ideas behind the Affordable Care Act. She agrees that everyone should have access to healthcare and no one should be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions.
> 
> But here's the problem:
> 
> ...


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 13, 2013)

Like I said before..........the GOP was smart to fight Obama over the ACA because it makes it difficult to blame it all on Republicans.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 13, 2013)

27,000 bought insurance via HealthCare.gov



> Just 26,794 of the 106,185 people who selected health insurance last month used the troubled federal exchange site, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said Wednesday.
> 
> The remaining 79,391 people used the state exchanges to enroll, for a total of 106,185 people enrolled from Oct. 1 to Nov. 2. ....


----------



## Amelia (Nov 13, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> Like I said before..........the GOP was smart to fight Obama over the ACA because it makes it difficult to blame it all on Republicans.





One article I read today blamed Obama's "If you like it you can keep it" lie on Bill Clinton.  ... coz Clinton promised people would lose their insurance but tried to assure them that what they got in exchange would be so much more secure.  And that effort failed.  So Obama had to lie. Just had to.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 13, 2013)

New Healthcare Enrollment Numbers Continue To Amaze - Yahoo Finance

The Affordable Care Act is becoming more and more of a misnomer each day, and its broad appeal is running far less than the White House hoped for. Monumental sign-up delays and website glitches and outages have turned into Congressional hearings. Now we have some new figures showing just how far behind the goals that Obamacare has laid out.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 13, 2013)

Democrats scramble to fix Obama's troubled health care law

Democrats scramble to fix Obama's troubled health care law 

              Panic in the halls of Congress

Democrats aren&#8217;t running through the halls of Congress with their hair on fire yet, but anxiety over the possible blowback from the federal health care law is growing by the day.






Related Stories


Obama meets with Senate Dems on health care Associated Press 
Obama says he's sorry Americans losing insurance Associated Press 
How Democrats Are Trying to Fix, But Not Criticize, Obamacare The Atlantic Wire 
Low Obamacare enrollment figures turns up heat on White House Reuters 
Bill Clinton Says Health Law May Need to Be Changed The Wall Street Journal 

Between the disastrous rollout of HealthCare.gov and the fact that millions of Americans are poised to lose their current health insurance coverage at the end of the year despite a promise from President Barack Obama that they would be able to keep their plans &#8220;no matter what,&#8221; congressional Democrats are scrambling to cover their hides before next year&#8217;s midterm elections.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 13, 2013)

http://news.yahoo.com/video/more-frustration-washington-over-botched-230921684.html

More Frustration in Washington Over the Botched Health Care Website


----------



## Amelia (Nov 13, 2013)

Why We Lied to Obama - NationalJournal.com




> We told him he could be popular. What we meant to say was he could be popular ... if he told the truth.
> 
> Americans told President Obama in 2012, "If you like your popularity, you can keep it."
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 13, 2013)

Got ObamaCare? Too bad for you | New York Post



> Uncle Sam will spend $2.6 trillion on ObamaCare over the next 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. What&#8217;s remarkable is how few people this will leave better off.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 13, 2013)

Matt Miller: What Typhoon Haiyan tells us about Obamacare - The Washington Post




> If you feel its urgent to help the victims of Typhoon Haiyan in the Philippines, then deep in your heart you also support Obamacare.
> 
> Its possible you havent made this connection yet, so let me explain.
> 
> ...



Shame on those who have so little faith in their own policies or their constituents that they would lie to their constituents to pass the legislation.  Shame on those who expect others to reward the lies and assaults on democracy with cooperation.  

When Obama and Democrats admit how wrong they were to lie to their constituents and backdoor clearly unpopular legislation,  we can talk.  

Robert Reich (and my facebook friend who shared his quote) said that Democrat legislators were showing they had the backbones of banana slugs because they were considering ways of keeping the promises they made to their constituents.  How sick is that?  How anti-democratic.


----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 13, 2013)

How do you spell failure...

Low enrollment numbers add to political low point for Obama - NBC Politics

   ...can it get any lower for the Oblammer?


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 14, 2013)

4 Things the White House Still Hasn?t Told Us About Obamacare - Yahoo Finance

4 Things the White House Still Hasn&#8217;t Told Us About Obamacare. 

The White House finally released its much anticipated enrollment numbers on Wednesday, revealing that some 106,000 Americans selected insurance policies on the state and federal health exchanges in October, the first month those marketplaces went live.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 14, 2013)

No Hope Left for Obamacare?s Website, Techies Say - Yahoo Finance

*No Hope Left for Obamacare&#8217;s Website, Techies Say.* 

Nearly a month and a half into the dismal Obamacare rollout, Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services communications director Julie Bataille told reporters on Tuesday that CMS has begun emailing at least 275,000 people who had gotten &#8220;stuck&#8221; attempting to create accounts on the glitch-ridden HealthCare.gov, asking them to come back to the site and &#8220;try again.&#8221;


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 14, 2013)

HealthCare.gov won't be fixed by end of the month: report

HealthCare.gov won't be fixed by end of the month: report.By Jay Busbee 



Waiting for HealthCare.gov to get fully functional? You might be waiting a little longer.
The Washington Post is reporting that an official with knowledge of the technological demands on the government's online health insurance marketplace says it is not likely the site will be fully functional by the end of the month, as the Obama administration has promised.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

Oh goody.  Problem solved.  

Obama letting people keep canceled health plans for another year - CBS News



WTF?  Abracadabra, your old policies exist again?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

So all the angry people whose insurance rates are going up get on more year to pay lower rates and stew about how their insurance will soon be cancelled anyway.   Pretty sure this isn't going to give Obama the political cover he hopes for.  Pretty sure it won't push the story until after the midterm elections.  

But .


----------



## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

How Obamacare Accomplishes The Unthinkable



> President Obamas signature domestic policy may have accomplished something previously unthinkable: taking an issue where one party had a dominant hold on public opinion, and reversing it in favor of the opposing party.
> 
> If the latest poll numbers and enrollment figures are to be believed, we could be witnessing a political achievement unequaled in modern political history: the complete demolition of one partys long-term dominance on an issue area  the Democrats ownership of the health care issue  in the space of a few months. Quinnipiac finds that young people trust Republicans in Congress more on health policy than the president; that a plurality of Hispanics, long the most pro-Obamacare faction, are now opposed to the law; and that overwhelming majorities (70+ percent) of Democrats, Republicans, and Independents are in favor of delaying the law. And thats not all: ....


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 14, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Oh goody.  Problem solved.
> 
> Obama letting people keep canceled health plans for another year - CBS News
> 
> ...



this tells you how bad the problems really are.  they have no fix.  right now the democrats are in total damage control trying to salvage a total loss in congress in 2014.  Obama should have listened to the tea party instead of playing hardball and shutting down the government for 16 days.  The tea party was right


----------



## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

> Insurers said Thursday that while they appreciated Obamas effort to address consumers concerns, they remained concerned that the move could distort the risk pool in the new state and federal health-insurance marketplaces.
> 
> Changing the rules after health plans have already met the requirements of the law could destabilize the market and result in higher premiums for consumers, said Karen Ignani, president and chief executive of Americas Health Insurance Plans. Premiums have already been set for next year based on an assumption of when consumers will be transitioning to the new marketplace. If now fewer younger and healthier people choose to purchase coverage in the exchange, premiums will increase and there will be fewer choices for consumers.



Obama announces change to address health insurance cancellations - The Washington Post


----------



## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

State rebuts Obama plan to allow old health insurance policies | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News



> OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Just hours after President Obamaannounced changes to his health care law to give insurance companies the option to keep offering consumers plans that would otherwise be canceled, Washington state Insurance Commissioner Mike Kreidler says those changes will not be allowed in our state.
> 
> Kreidler says Thursday he has "serious concerns" about how Obama's proposal would be implemented and its potential impact on the overall stability of the state's health insurance market.
> 
> ...






Edit: funny ... that article changed after I linked it.   It even changed from an Olympia dateline to a Seattle dateline.  I only noticed because I went back to check on the "Obamaannounced" typo I copy/pasted.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

Chaos ensues after insurance cancellation reversal -- USA Today



> David Isenstadt has spent the past six weeks working 12-hour days, seven days a week, trying to reach all of his insurance clients with canceled policies to switch them to new policies. Now this.
> 
> ....


----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 15, 2013)

So what are the odds he resigns by June of 2014?

How can you screw up this bad and still remain in the highest executive office? 

In the real world he is done, toast, hasta la vista baby... 

I don't think even MSNBC will keep bailing him out at this pace...

This is really fun to watch...


----------



## asterism (Nov 15, 2013)

GWV5903 said:


> So what are the odds he resigns by June of 2014?
> 
> How can you screw up this bad and still remain in the highest executive office?
> 
> ...



The odds of resigning over this?  ZERO

The time to stop this was last November.


----------



## theHawk (Nov 15, 2013)

This just cements the Hussein's legacy of being the worst President ever.

He's fucked millions of people over.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

Obamacare Is Whatever Obama Says It Is - Bloomberg



Many interesting points .... including a discussion of whether the IRS could legally enforce the mandate.  Would people who are on the "substandard" insurance plans okayed by Obama for another year be ordered to pay the penalty?  If they are not then how could anyone else?  Obama may be able to pick and choose which laws will be enforced -- but the IRS can't pick and choose who has to obey tax law.


----------



## Politico (Nov 15, 2013)

If they have a refund coming yes they will enforce it.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

Profound article.  I hope the link works.  If it doesn't work from here, it's worth googling for a  readable copy of it.

Fouad Ajami: When the Obama Magic Died - WSJ.com



> The current troubles of the Obama presidency can be read back into its beginnings. Rule by personal charisma has met its proper fate. The spell has been broken, and the magician stands exposed. We need no pollsters to tell us of the loss of faith in Mr. Obama's policiesand, more significantly, in the man himself. Charisma is like that. Crowds come together and they project their needs onto an imagined redeemer. The redeemer leaves the crowd to its imagination: For as long as the charismatic moment lastsa year, an erathe redeemer is above and beyond judgment. He glides through crises, he knits together groups of varied, often clashing, interests. Always there is that magical moment, and its beauty, as a reference point.
> 
> Mr. Obama gave voice to this sentiment in a speech on Nov. 6 in Dallas: "Sometimes I worry because everybody had such a fun experience in '08, at least that's how it seemed in retrospect. And, 'yes we can,' and the slogans and the posters, et cetera, sometimes I worry that people forget change in this country has always been hard." It's a pity we can't stay in that moment, says the redeemer: The fault lies in the country itselfeverywhere, that is, except in the magician's performance.
> 
> ...




I picked the first four paragraphs to quote in the natural manner, but the article gets better and better.  Practically perfect observations of the dynamics of the Obama election and presidency.


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Obamacare Is Whatever Obama Says It Is - Bloomberg
> 
> Many interesting points .... including a discussion of whether the IRS could legally enforce the mandate.  Would people who are on the "substandard" insurance plans okayed by Obama for another year be ordered to pay the penalty?  If they are not then how could anyone else?  Obama may be able to pick and choose which laws will be enforced -- but the IRS can't pick and choose who has to obey tax law.




No Sign of Plan B for Obamacare - Bloomberg

The most interesting tidbit by far came from Henry Chao, deputy chief information officer at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, who was heavily involved in the project: According to him, at least some portion of the website still isnt finished, notably the bit that pays insurers. Since that wasnt needed until January, he said, it wasnt finished and tested at the same time as the system. Unfortunately, January no longer sounds so far off.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Profound article.  I hope the link works.  If it doesn't work from here, it's worth googling for a  readable copy of it.
> 
> Fouad Ajami: When the Obama Magic Died - WSJ.com
> 
> ...



Have faith he'll find some way to get out of this jam.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare Is Whatever Obama Says It Is - Bloomberg
> ...



I have a plan B scrap the whole damn things and leave it alone.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



obamacare pretty much works the same way 

that laws in a banana republic works 

the executive branch just willie nillie changing parts of the law


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...


That would be unconstitutional wouldn't it?


----------



## jon_berzerk (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Obamacare Is Whatever Obama Says It Is - Bloomberg
> 
> 
> 
> Many interesting points .... including a discussion of whether the IRS could legally enforce the mandate.  Would people who are on the "substandard" insurance plans okayed by Obama for another year be ordered to pay the penalty?  If they are not then how could anyone else?  Obama may be able to pick and choose which laws will be enforced -- but the IRS can't pick and choose who has to obey tax law.



*including a discussion of whether the IRS could legally enforce the mandate*

it can 

however it can only obtain the mandate tax through tax refunds 

pretty easy to over come that 

one should not be  borrowing the government money anyhow


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

one more thing we tried to tell them would happen.  but they just don't listen.

Businesses cut full-time workers to meet Obamacare mandate, study says

Businesses cut full-time workers to meet Obamacare mandate, study says
A study of small businesses found that many are cutting full-time workers or worker hours to comply with Obamacare. Franchises are making the biggest cuts.. 

. .  . ..First, President Obama had to backtrack from his promise that if you like your health insurance plan, under Obamacare "you can keep it." Now, a new study is suggesting that, under Obamacare, "If you like your workweek, you can&#8217;t necessarily keep it, either."


Related Stories
Small Business and ObamaCare The Wall Street Journal Obamacare website: Is one month enough time to fix it? Christian Science Monitor Millions losing health plans under Obamacare. Did president mislead? Christian Science Monitor [$$] Despite a Botched Rollout, the Health-Care Law Is Worth It The Wall Street Journal US health secretary on Obamacare website: 'You deserve better' AFP About 30 percent of small franchises and 12 percent of other small businesses say they are cutting work hours &#8211; or swapping full-time for part-time workers &#8211; because of the law, according to a poll sponsored by business groups.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare Is Whatever Obama Says It Is - Bloomberg
> ...





There is a different question this time -- the old plans would violate the law, so technically people who renew their old plans for another year would still owe the tax since they don't have insurance which meets ACA requirements.   But if those insured people still had to pay a penalty, that would make constituents scream.  So would the Obama administration say they didn't owe the penalty after all?

If they waived the penalty for people who had their old noncompliant insurance plans but still enforced the penalty for people who had no plan, that would be selective enforcement of a tax.  And THAT would be against the law.  ... if I understand correctly.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

And another story which needs to be told -- rich hospitals getting richer, poor hospitals getting poorer under the ACA:

Medicare Penalizes Nearly 1,500 Hospitals for Poor Quality - NationalJournal.com

Medicare Penalizes Nearly 1,500 Hospitals For Poor Quality Scores : Shots - Health News : NPR

CMS: The 2,225 hospitals that will pay readmissions penalties next year | The Advisory Board Daily Briefing



> The latest data calculation showed that hospitals treating mostly low-income patients were penalized disproportionately, reviving hospitals' concerns about uneven penalty distributions, Jordan Rau reports for Kaiser Health News .




The sicker your population, the more likely the patients will be to need readmission, and the greater your penalty ... so what do you do?  Turn down less healthy patients?  Refuse to readmit?  Or do the best you can with the people in need while your resources wither?

Will hospitals use their limited resources on cosmetic fixes when they need to use it on equipment -- in order to try to have a cheerful environment which will get them more points on customer satisfaction surveys?  

Could hospitals in vulnerable areas be put out of business because of this?

I don't know.  I just heard some about this on NPR this morning while I was half asleep.  And I'm sure there are many more stories which need to be told about the ACA.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

Backpedaling Bam is fumbling and bumbling | New York Post



> ....
> 
> &#8220;And another mistake that we made, I think, was underestimating the difficulties of people purchasing insurance online and shopping for a lot of options with a lot of costs and lot of different benefits and plans.&#8221; Really? People do that with airline tickets every day. The only difference there is that those Web sites work.
> 
> ...






So true.  Truth is stranger than fiction for sure.  Couldn't have imagined in a million years that Obama could be as stupid as he turned out to be.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

The Insiders: For Democrats, dark days ahead



> Is the presidents Obamacare fix part of the Obama administrations pattern of deceit or a product of its frequent delusion?
> 
> A cursory discussion with almost anyone who knows anything about the insurance business would have alerted the president to the fact that his proposal is unworkable. The initial take from experts on both the right and the left is that the president did not fix anything yesterday.  ....


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> So all the angry people whose insurance rates are going up get on more year to pay lower rates and stew about how their insurance will soon be cancelled anyway.   Pretty sure this isn't going to give Obama the political cover he hopes for.  Pretty sure it won't push the story until after the midterm elections.
> 
> But .



Our rates went up 44% (employer sponsored).  Will those rates stay what they were or will the 44% increase take place?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 15, 2013)

Does anyone believe that this whole thing wasn't/isn't intentional?  While dems are not the brightest ... even I am amazed what an utter fail this whole (un)aca mess is.  I mean, _really_??  I simply cannot believe that it isn't intentional.  Anyone want to take a gander at when the 'S.P' word starts to come out of the WH?  And I didn't think it was possible for obama to be more inept and hapless.  After listening to him yesterday, I stand corrected.  I am embarrassed that he is the leader (and I use that term _ever_ so loosely) of the free (that one too) world.  They've had three years to get this whole thing up and running and it is a pile of crap and he comes out and says that the policies that were cancelled can stay for another year, and the insurance companies will be able to comply with this in what, six weeks or so?  <blink, blink>  He sure isn't the brightest bulb in the box.  I don't think he's even in the box.  Does anyone besides the lemmings believe anything this guy says?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

I don't think it was intentional.  I think it was arrogance and being out-of-touch.  

Even if they wanted single payer, they couldn't have wanted people to believe they were liars.  They couldn't have wanted the number of taxpayers supporting their fantasy to decrease.  A 30-hour-per-week nation will not fund their goals.  Pissing off unions is not in their interest.  Foundering internet infrastructure was not in their interest.  

Right?  

I think it was just sheer incompetence and delusion about how they knew best and how the people whose intelligence they were insulting would eventually rally around them.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> I don't think it was intentional.  I think it was arrogance and being out-of-touch.
> 
> Even if they wanted single payer, they couldn't have wanted people to believe they were liars.  They couldn't have wanted the number of taxpayers supporting their fantasy to decrease.  A 30-hour-per-week nation will not fund their goals.  Pissing off unions is not in their interest.
> 
> ...



If true, I am astounded that they are that stupid.  Seriously.  I'm not convinced, though.  They've salivated for this for years, they got their trifecta and ran with it, consequences be damned. Throw themselves on the sword, so to speak.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

House passes Republican health bill with 39 Democratic votes



House passes Republican health bill with 39 Democratic votes


39 Dems Help GOP Pass Insurance Cancellation Bill The Fiscal Times 
An apologetic Obama unveils fix on health law Reuters 
Low Obamacare enrollment figures turns up heat on White House Reuters 
Policy cancellations: Obama will allow old plans Associated Press 
Obamacare enrollment low; Democrats unhappy Associated Press 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In the most significant legislative rebuke to President Barack Obama's healthcare overhaul, 39 members of his Democratic Party voted for a Republican bill in the House of Representatives on Friday aimed at undermining his signature domestic policy.

The measure, which would allow insurance companies to renew and sell inexpensive, limited-coverage policies that have been canceled because they don't meet the standards of the new healthcare law that took effect on October 1, passed 261-157.

The 39 Democrats who supported the bill - nearly one-fifth of the party's caucus - reflected the alarm that spread within Obama's party this week over the political damage from the botched rollout of the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> House passes Republican health bill with 39 Democratic votes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why are republicans helping obama? Why don't they let obamacare go as is? The only way idiot obama supporters will pay for their stupidity is allow obamacare to remain as is.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

Obamacare is about to make the debt ceiling a cathedral ceiling


House votes to reinstate insurance plans. Will such fixes sink Obamacare?


House votes to reinstate insurance plans. Will such fixes sink Obamacare?

On a bipartisan vote, the House on Friday approved the measure &#8211; its answer to the millions of recent health-plan cancellations. But such fixes may also do damage to Obamacare.
.


Christian Science Monitor 
By Francine Kiefer 2 hours ago 












..
.



..
.

....
.
...
..





Washington is full of ideas on how to fix the fully loaded SUV known as Obamacare. On Thursday, President Obama offered his fix. On Friday, members of the House &#8211; including 39 Democrats &#8211; approved theirs, and other lawmakers have their own ideas. But all these busy mechanics could end up doing more damage to Obamacare.






Related Stories


39 Dems Help GOP Pass Insurance Cancellation Bill The Fiscal Times 
An apologetic Obama unveils fix on health law Reuters 
House OKs coverage plans short of Obamacare rules Associated Press 
[$$] ObamaCare's Nonfix The Wall Street Journal 
Low Obamacare enrollment figures turns up heat on White House Reuters 

How&#8217;s that?

Well, start with the general aim of the various repairs. They differ in detail, but basically, they would allow &#8211; for varying times &#8211; millions of Americans whose health insurance is being canceled under Obamacare to keep their plans and their doctors if they like them. Just like Mr. Obama originally promised.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > House passes Republican health bill with 39 Democratic votes
> ...



on one hand they should let him flounder, he is such an arrogant ass.  but just because the democrats royally screwed americans doesn't mead the American people should be left to flounder


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

they should leave obamacare alone and let it play out. After it does I wonder how many democrats who vote for it will be alive to tell the tale.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



I'm sorry I disagree their is only one way to fix America and that is, go through hardship. Make them work for their freedom once more.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



we're going to go through hardship.  this plan is law and what is really going to cost has been totally underestimated.  Healthcare has not been reformed.  You think insurance fraud was bad before, just wait.  insurance companies and pharmaceuticals are already gearing up. Statins were the most prescribed drugs ever and now they have a whole new audience.  all you see all over now are articles about new cholesterol guidelines. they are going to be pumping americans full of unneeded pills.  and johnny taxpayer will be footing the bill.  People are going to be loosing their jobs over this.  companies are already starting to trim workers to keep under the limit. in 6 months, watch the unemployment numbers. what limited discretionary money some people had is now going to go to mandatory healthcare. the economy will suffer.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



To get America back on track and get rid of the progressive agenda this must run it's course.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



I agree with you.  I think Americans need a real wake up call to the damage these progressive socialist policies are doing.  in terms of cost, lost productivity, creating a society  of entitled slugs who provide nothing in return.  working americans can not continue to support the rapidly expanding group of non working. not only are the numbers growing but what they are being given is growing. it has passed the threshold of being affordable.  obamacare, at an estimated 1/6th the GDP is going to be a crippler. we cannot sustain it without incurring even more massive debt, devaluing the dollar, causing drastic inflation and even putting the petro dollar at risk of being the worlds currency.  the risks here are unacceptable.   and to think we have idiots here saying this is a good thing because they are so partisan they are incapable of accepting what they really know.  this is a disaster.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



Yes it will be a disaster but it's the only way to fix America.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

After Obama Meeting, Insurers Question Plans Workability




> ....
> 
> Already, some states, including Washington and Arkansas, have said they will not allow insurers to extend policies that do not comply with the guidelines established by the minimum standards set by the Affordable Care Act. Rhode Island also announced on Friday that it would not go along. After reviewing the presidents announcement, we have decided to continue in the direction we are going and therefore will not be adopting the option made available to us by the president, state officials said.
> 
> ...


----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 15, 2013)

asterism said:


> GWV5903 said:
> 
> 
> > So what are the odds he resigns by June of 2014?
> ...



Probably true and very unlikely, but will it hurt if we send the subliminal message?

He came as advertised, why so many where fooled is ridiculous...


----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 15, 2013)

39 is a clear indication the Dems are starting to crack...

In mild rebuke to Obama, 39 Dems vote with GOP on 'Keep Your Plan' bill - NBC Politics

How many will let their political futures disintegrate as fast as Oblammercare...

The fun is just beginning... 

This legislation will go down by the hands of the very people who made him POTUS in the first place, rebellion by the very voters who put him in office...

Mutiny at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue...


----------



## Jroc (Nov 16, 2013)

27 Democratic senators who promised you could keep your health coverage | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Jroc said:


> 27 Democratic senators who promised you could keep your health coverage | WashingtonExaminer.com



thank you for the link sent ms hagan a word or two and asked her why she lied.

Edit
I haven't heard from her as of yet.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 16, 2013)

Obama struggles to save his cherished health law from the clutches of his own administration - The Washington Post



> WASHINGTON  President Barack Obamas health care law risks coming unglued because of his administrations bungles and his own inflated promises.
> 
> To avoid that fate, Obama needs breakthroughs on three fronts: the cancellations mess, technology troubles and a crisis in confidence among his own supporters.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 16, 2013)

Ruh-roh



> The voters who vaulted both Barack Obama and Harry Reid to power and national office are seeing what must be shocking headlines today. On Thursday, the president offered an apology and an unworkable and possibly illegal fix to his troubled healthcare law. Today, the Chicago Tribune has had enough and wants the presidents signature law repealed.
> 
> In an editorial titled Stop Digging. Demolish Obamacare or Stop Digging. Start Over, the Chicago Tribune rips into Obamas signature law.
> 
> ...



The PJ Tatler » It Begins: Major Newspapers in Reid?s and Obama?s Home States Call for Obamacare Repeal


----------



## Jroc (Nov 16, 2013)

> (CNSNews.com) - Doug Elmendorf, director of the Congressional Budget Office, said in a presentation at the University of Pennsylvania&#8217;s Wharton School on Wednesday that the Affordable Care Act&#8212;AKA Obamacare--will push a net of seven million people out of employer-based health-insurance plans. &#8220;About 7 million fewer people will have employment-based health insurance,&#8221; says one of the slides from Elmendorf&#8217;s presentation. &#8220;(That is the net decline: More people who would have had such insurance will not have it under the ACA, but others who would not have had such insurance will gain it under the ACA.)&#8221; Elmendorf attributed this information to the CBO&#8217;s and the Joint Committee on Taxation&#8217;s joint projections for the impact of Obamacare through 2023. Elmendorf&#8217;s presentation also said that another 10 to 15 million people who would have bought health insurance plans in the individual market if Obamacare did not exist would end up buying plans with higher premiums under Obamacare because of mandates Obamacare imposes on the insurance companies offering plans.



CBO: Obamacare Will Push 7M Out of Employer-Based Plans | CNS News


----------



## Jroc (Nov 17, 2013)

> *University Drops Student Health Insurance Due to Obamacare*
> 
> If you like your health insurance plan, you can keep your plan, unless you are a student at Maryland&#8217;s oldest historically black university.
> 
> ...



University Drops Student Health Insurance Due to Obamacare | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## Amelia (Nov 17, 2013)

President Obama Job Approval
RCP Average
Approve 41.2
Disapprove 54.2
Spread -13.0


----------



## Jroc (Nov 17, 2013)

> *$174K-Per-Year Congressmen Will Get Special Obamacare Subsidy *
> 
> Under Obamacare -- as it is being implemented under a regulation issued by the White House Office of Personnel Management (OPM) -- a middle-aged member of Congress who earns an annual salary of $174,000 from the taxpayers, and who has a wife and children, will get a $10,000 subsidy from the taxpayers (over and above his $174,000 salary) to buy a health insurance plan that a regular citizen making almost $80,000 less than the congressman will not get. The Affordable Care Act (ACA), popularly known as Obamacare, included language mandating that members of Congress and their staff buy their now-mandated health insurance plans through a government exchange.




$174K-Per-Year Congressmen Will Get Special Obamacare Subsidy | CNS News


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 17, 2013)

Jroc said:


> > *$174K-Per-Year Congressmen Will Get Special Obamacare Subsidy *
> >
> > Under Obamacare -- as it is being implemented under a regulation issued by the White House Office of Personnel Management (OPM) -- a middle-aged member of Congress who earns an annual salary of $174,000 from the taxpayers, and who has a wife and children, will get a $10,000 subsidy from the taxpayers (over and above his $174,000 salary) to buy a health insurance plan that a regular citizen making almost $80,000 less than the congressman will not get. The Affordable Care Act (ACA), popularly known as Obamacare, included language mandating that members of Congress and their staff buy their now-mandated health insurance plans through a government exchange.
> 
> ...



Americans in the private sector who buy health insurance through the Obamacare exchanges only get a federal subsidy (a tax credit) if their income/family situation is below 400% of poverty, the ceiling for which is $94,200 for a family of four.

If they surpass that 400% level, then no subsidy.  *Theoretically, a family bringing in $174,000, like a member of Congress, would have to have 12 children dependents to even be eligible for a subsidy *under the Obamacare rules. (See Federal Poverty Guidelines.pdf )

Under t*he OPM deal arranged in August, the average member of Congress who makes $174,000 a year will be able to keep his approximately $10,000 health insurance subsidy, like he used to get under his old plan, before Obamacare.  Congressional staffers who buy through the exchange will also get to keep the subsidies they were receiving. * (See Congress Salary CRS Report.pdf)

Before Obamacare, Congress plans were administered by the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program (FEHBP) and the government paid a yearly contribution to those plans of $4,966.80 for singles and $10,048.76 for families.

*The Obamacare law was supposed to eliminate that FEHBP subsidy but the OPM essentially put it back in.*

Hypocrites!


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

After Obamacare fix, consumers remain uncertain


Obama is evil.  And the media should quit calling what he did a "fix".

To take political heat off himself and cast the blame on someone else, he tells insurance companies to fix in a month what he and his people spent 3 years effing up.

Vile political animal without any redeeming qualities to justify him having any say in our lives.  And I continue to be spitting mad at the people who pushed him on us and let him get away with the frauds and abuses he and his admin have committed because they realized they were above scrutiny.  The people who promoted Obama for the presidency had no respect for the office.  They clearly thought it was of small enough importance that it could be done by someone with nothing but speech-making abilities to recommend him.

I've been trying to take a break because I'm so stressed out and as I woke up with throbbing pain in my neck this morning I realized that break should probably be a long time.  But that's easier said than done.




President Obama Job Approval
RCP Average
Approve 41.2
Disapprove 54.3
Spread -13.1


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

Obamacare: So, what could go wrong next? - David Nather - POLITICO.com




> Busted website, canceled policies, lousy early enrollment numbers. And that could be just the warmup.
> 
> Because the lesson of the last six weeks is that when it comes to the Obamacare rollout, if it can go wrong, it probably will.
> 
> ...







Turn down your new job, turn down that raise -- you could lose your subsidies and suddenly be on the hook for the full cost of the gigantic new premiums.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm sure the left would love for all of us to stop posting these stories showing just how awful the obama, dems, and this pos law is.  Aint' gonna happen.

Go against this admin and look what happens:



> A day after he questioned President Obamas decision to unwind a major tenet of the health-care law and said the nations capital might not go along, D.C. insurance commissioner William P. White was fired.
> 
> White was one of the first insurance commissioners in the nation last week to push back against Obamas attempt to smooth over part of the botched rollout of the Affordable Care Act: millions of unexpected cancellations of insurance plans.
> 
> The now unemployed White had agreed with the statement from the National Association of Insurance Commissioners saying Obamas hasty solution to the policy cancellation problem, threatens to undermine the new market, and may lead to higher premiums and market disruptions in 2014 and beyond.



24 Hours After Criticizing Obama's Healthcare 'Fix,' D.C.'s Insurance Commissioner Fired | Independent Journal Review


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

Wow


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

Obamacare's Creative, Or Illegal, Rule-Making - Bloomberg



(re: risk corridors)


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 18, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> I'm sure the left would love for all of us to stop posting these stories showing just how awful the obama, dems, and this pos law is.  Aint' gonna happen.
> 
> Go against this admin and look what happens:
> 
> ...



That's just plain wrong!
Is it racist?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

Without Massive Republican Opposition, Obamacare Would be in Better Shape

STFU!  

Republicans had NO duty to stand silent during the Democrats' rape of democratic principles and they had every obligation to stand against it. 

You people who blame Republicans for standing in the way of legislation Obama had to lie to achieve -- and especially you people who have the gall to blame Republicans for Obama's lies themselves -- you are so disgusting I don't have words for it.


Without Democrats' lies and disdain for the will of the people, maybe some sort of reform which didn't damage the constitution or the economy would have been possible. Thanks to you sycophantic, dishonest Democrats we'll never know.

If Republicans help provide Democrats cover for their wrongdoings, then people won't continue to wake up enough to stop Democrats from doing more harm.  It is too easy for Democrats to make bullshit promises, and Democrats themselves show no sign that they're willing to let up on their slander of Republicans -- war on women, hate clean air and water, throwing granny off the cliff -- sound familiar? -- so the Democratic agenda and m.o. must be exposed for the danger that it is.  Period.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

President Obama and His Gang That (Still) Isn't Shooting Straight - NationalJournal.com



> *Incompetence, deception, and lack of accountability still hound White House and health reform.*
> 
> Incompetence, deception, and lack of accountability doomed the Obamacare rollout. That's old news.  What's new? The nagging durability of the White House's incompetence, deception, and lack of accountability.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jroc (Nov 18, 2013)

Who'd a thunk it?



> *D.C.-Based Health Care Exchange May Have Engaged in Illegal Political Activity Online*
> 
> A former chief White House ethics lawyer has filed a Hatch Act complaint against a D.C.-based health care exchange, alleging that its online communications with liberal activist group Organizing for Action (OFA) violated rules against federal political activity.
> 
> ...



DC-Based Health Care Exchange May Have Engaged in Illegal Political Activity | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## Jroc (Nov 18, 2013)

They all knew and pushed the lie anyway...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NfKV95fgr8]Gillibrand: 'We all knew' Obama was Lying - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

Bastiges.

Creeps around here keep saying, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good," as if Obamacare is good. 

Obamacare is a travesty.  

People who call themselves Democrats and say the ends justify the means with Obamacare are delusional.  They do not deserve the name "Democrat".


----------



## Amelia (Nov 18, 2013)

This has already been posted about.  Glad some people are trying to keep it in the news:

Review & Outlook: ObamaCare's Union Favor - WSJ.com



> The Affordable Care Act's greatest hits keep coming, and one that hasn't received enough attention is a looming favor for President Obama's friends in Big Labor. Millions of Americans are losing their plans and paying more for health care, and doctors are being forced out of insurance networks, but a lucky few may soon get relief.
> 
> Earlier this month the Administration suggested that it may grant a waiver for some insurance plans from a tax that is supposed to capitalize a reinsurance fund for ObamaCare. The $25 billion cost of the fund, which is designed to pay out to the insurers on the exchanges if their costs are higher than expected, is socialized over every U.S. citizen with a private health plan. For 2014, the fee per head is $63.
> 
> ...


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 19, 2013)

Jroc said:


> They all knew and pushed the lie anyway...
> 
> Gillibrand: 'We all knew' Obama was Lying - YouTube



it has nothing to do with healthcare coverage because if it did the government would expand medicare/ medicaid


----------



## Amelia (Nov 19, 2013)

Woman cited by President as Obamacare success story frustrated by sign up process -- CNN Political Ticker

Wow.  As of this point she cannot get insurance.  Contradicting their first estimates, the Washington state exchange now says she qualifies for no subsidies and she says cannot afford any of the plans available.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 19, 2013)

obamcare will self destruct piece by piece

Obamacare Individual Mandate May Be Next to Fall - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 19, 2013)

GOP Seizes on Obamacare Polls to Raise Heat on Dems


----------



## Amelia (Nov 19, 2013)

More Obamacare promises are going up in smoke | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## william the wie (Nov 19, 2013)

Amelia said:


> More Obamacare promises are going up in smoke | WashingtonExaminer.com


Go for a hard one catch the libs in a truthful statement about anything political.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 19, 2013)

Bruce Barcott: My Obamacare Cancellation | The New York Observer

"Seething at a President I helped elect."

That's from a Democrat who is trying to suck it up and swallow the extra costs even though he was upset that he lost his policy.  He's seething because of Obama throwing the monkey wrench in rate stability with his empty extension.  He's frustrated because of an application process which is so complicated that accountant/lawyers have to recuse themselves from giving advice because they can't meaningfully tell their clients how to proceed.  It would be criminal for them to shoot from the hip, so they have to refuse to take questions.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 19, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> obamcare will self destruct piece by piece
> 
> Obamacare Individual Mandate May Be Next to Fall - Yahoo Finance



From the link:



> The requirement that uninsured Americans either buy coverage through the new government markets or pay a tax penalty




This is a lie that I see repeated over and over.  Uninsured people can buy coverage through the (un)aca OR they can buy coverage through a private provider via an individual policy.  Why don't sources state this?  They lie by omission.  My brother's catastrophic policy that he purchased on his own got cancelled and we both thought that they (un)aca was his only option ... until he found out it wasn't.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 19, 2013)

Obama was briefed earlier in year on health website problems | Reuters



> President Barack Obama, who has portrayed himself as surprised by technical problems with the government's new health care website, was briefed earlier this year on a consultant's report that warned of possible widespread site failures, the White House said on Tuesday.
> 
> There have been weeks of questions about whether Obama understood the depth of the site's problems and let it open anyway, or simply "did not have enough awareness" of them, as the president stated at a November 14 news conference.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 19, 2013)

Video of Sebelius seeming to lie under oath, and more discussion

RCP's Tom Bevan: Were Warnings About Obamacare Site Ignored? | RealClearPolitics


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 19, 2013)

"This is a mess&#8230;and it continues to get messier," said California Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom on "The Kudlow Report."

Obamacare is a mess: California official


----------



## Jroc (Nov 19, 2013)

Community organizers call to action to help spread more misinformation



> President Obama told supporters Monday night that he needed their help battling against &#8220;a lot of misinformation&#8221; spread by political opponents about his signature healthcare legislation.
> 
> Speaking on a virtual conference call hosted by *Organizing for Action,* the political group born from his reelection campaign, the president admitted that problems with the ObamaCare website had put a damper on early enrollment efforts.
> 
> ...




Obama tells supporters to fight ObamaCare ?misinformation? | TheHill


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 19, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Bruce Barcott: My Obamacare Cancellation | The New York Observer
> 
> "Seething at a President I helped elect."
> 
> That's from a Democrat who is trying to suck it up and swallow the extra costs even though he was upset that he lost his policy.  He's seething because of Obama throwing the monkey wrench in rate stability with his empty extension.  He's frustrated because of an application process which is so complicated that accountant/lawyers have to recuse themselves from giving advice because they can't meaningfully tell their clients how to proceed.  It would be criminal for them to shoot from the hip, so they have to refuse to take questions.



*Hows the view up there, Obamacare Ollie? 

*If our policy still existed it would fall into the column of Wood. 
But Wood we hadand Wood we liked. 

*I went to a friend and colleaguelets call him Peterfor advice.

 This guy has a  great sense of humor!


----------



## william the wie (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't know but I think I may run out of the money needed to buy more puts on all of the companies and industries likely to be destroyed by this one bill.


----------



## GWV5903 (Nov 19, 2013)

I couldn't believe it, I was driving east on 620 at Pecan Park Blvd. today and this White Ford Expedition drives thru this intersection with red letters saying *"Obamacare Made Easy"* I Google this and low and behold there is this website...

Funny Healthcare | We Make Obamacare Easy and Make it Work for You! - Funny Healthcare 

....only in Austin, you have to live here to believe it...


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 20, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Obama was briefed earlier in year on health website problems | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> ...




obama is a lying dunce, period.  The rest of the world is watching and thinking the same thing.  I am mortified that he is our president.  

More astoundingly moronicness on the website:



> A large portion of the error-riddled, multimillion dollar federal health insurance exchange system has not even been built yet, according to a senior official involved in the construction of the website.
> 
> The revelation came Tuesday during a House Energy and Commerce Committee hearing on the possible security risks surrounding healthcare.gov.
> 
> ...



They had 3 years, boatload of money, and not only do they not have the whole thing finished they can't even be certain how much of it still needs to be built???  The incompetence is mind-boggling.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 20, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Obama was briefed earlier in year on health website problems | Reuters
> ...



Michelle's friend got paid though



> *Michelle Obamas Princeton classmate is executive at company that built Obamacare website*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Read more: Michelle Obama's Princeton classmate was Obamacare website builder | The Daily Caller


----------



## Jroc (Nov 20, 2013)

He doesn't want it called Obamacare anymore?




> *Obama: 'We're Going to Have to...Re-market and Re-brand' the Affordable Care Act *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


. 


> During a campaign stop in Colorado last year, the president embraced the name that Republicans had given to his health insurance law: "The Affordable Care Act -- also known as Obamacare," Obama said in August 2012. "I actually like the name," he added. "Because I do care -- that's why we fought so hard to make it happen



Obama: 'We're Going to Have to...Re-market and Re-brand' the Affordable Care Act | CNS News


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 20, 2013)

Jroc said:


> *He doesn't want it called Obamacare anymore?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The rat is trying to run off of his own sinking ship!


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

He's such an adorable little conman.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 20, 2013)

Jroc said:


> He doesn't want it called Obamacare anymore?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





ObamaCare is the NEW COKE of health insurance.

It doesn't matter what they call it, it's crap.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

New Coke 



I'm in a good mood today for some reason.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 20, 2013)

Obamacare site tip of the iceberg: Ex-Medtronic CEO


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 20, 2013)

ok, when your poster child is not vetted to ensure there are n issues there is something really, really wrong.  for this to happen is unexcuseable.  but it just shows the level of complete and total failure by this administration innitiating this plan.  the more this progresses and the deeper look we get into the problems regarding obamacare, the worse it gets for the democrats.  hindsight says the tea party was 100% right.  hindsight says the tea party was 100% justified in utilizinr the treat of shutdown to bring to light issues and concerns

Obamacare ?success story? says she can?t afford new health plan


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Obamacare may need a taxpayer bailout: Ex-HHS head



> The rollout of Obamacare has been "absolutely chaotic," said Tommy Thompson, who served as U.S. Health and Human Services secretary under George W. Bush. But worse, he added, the new law is flawed and needs dramatic changes.
> 
> "It's actuarially unsound," the former Republican governor of Wisconsin said on CNBC's "Squawk Box" on Tuesday. "If you don't have the healthy young people involved, ... Obamacare cannot function. It's going to require a huge infusion of tax dollars or huge cuts."
> 
> ....


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Expert to warn Congress of HealthCare.gov security bugs



> A respected security expert will warn Congress on Tuesday that the Obama administration's healthcare website has security flaws that put user data at a "critical risk," despite recent government assurances the data are safe.
> 
> "There are actual live vulnerabilities on the site now," David Kennedy, head of computer security consulting firm TrustedSec, told Reuters ahead of his testimony at a congressional hearing on the topic "Is My Data on HealthCare.gov Secure?"
> 
> ...


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 20, 2013)

I know I said this before but I'mma say it again. 

You know the shit is bad, bad, bad when the left is avoiding this thread like the plague.  26 pages, 400+ posts in this thread and mums the word.  None of them are in here even trying to defend this crap.  Well, ok it isn't defendable.  _Still_.  Speaks volumes, doesn't it?


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 20, 2013)

Was the DOT COM Bubble called the Clinton Bubble?
Was the Housing Bubble called the George W Bush Bubble?
Why is the ACA referred to, by Conservatives, as ObamaCare?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 20, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> Was the DOT COM Bubble called the Clinton Bubble?
> Was the Housing Bubble called the George W Bush Bubble?
> Why is the ACA referred to, by Conservatives, as ObamaCare?



The Rs referred to it as obamacare because they knew it wouldn't be affordable so to call it such would be nothing but a nonsensical lie.  obama is the one who pushed for this, rather than focusing on the economy.  Remember pelosi said she'd pole vault it over the fence if  she had to?  He wanted it, he got it.  Now it's boo hoo hoo from the left?   

obama likes that it's called obamacare, as do the dems.  Well, they did until they realized what a piece of shit it is ... of course now they're trying to distance themselves from it.  Yeah, good luck with that.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> Was the DOT COM Bubble called the Clinton Bubble?
> Was the Housing Bubble called the George W Bush Bubble?
> Why is the ACA referred to, by Conservatives, as ObamaCare?




Because ObamaCare is Obama's signature achievement.   Something which he proudly pushed and trumpeted as something he was able to accomplish which presidents had failed to achieve for a hundred years before.  He campaigned on it -- twice -- and the lies he told about it helped get him elected.  

Obama embraced the name.  That he is now trying to shed it is telling.  

Clinton didn't create the dot com bubble.  Bush didn't create the housing bubble.  ObamaCare was deliberately inflicted upon us by Obama.  His lies about it and delays of parts of it stopped Americans from seeing the truth about it until it was too late for them to stop it electorally.  He started it. He pushed it.  He chose to keep pushing even though the backlash in America was so great that Massachusetts sent a Republican to fill the Kennedy senate seat to try to stop it.  He owns it.  And he embraced the name "ObamaCare" -- until now, when it has become showcase for his dishonesty and incompetence.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> Was the DOT COM Bubble called the Clinton Bubble?
> Was the Housing Bubble called the George W Bush Bubble?
> Why is the ACA referred to, by Conservatives, as ObamaCare?





Should it be called Affordable Care?

Someone who advocated for it in Illinois -- she worked for an Illinois congressman -- has now had her policy cancelled and when she saw the prices of the replacements, she said it shouldn't be called the Affordable Care Act, but rather the Available Care Act.

If you want to call it by its name, write it out -- Affordable Care.  Shortening it to ACA sounds like a euphemism to try to stop people from remembering what that first A stands for.  

What should it be called by people who are seeing their rates go up?  What should it be called by the people who used to be insured but who can no longer afford insurance at all?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

White House braces for doctor dump | Fox News



> WHITE HOUSE BRACES FOR DOCTOR DUMP - The presidents if you like it bait-and-switch on insurance is not the only pledge that will be broken under ObamaCare.  Press Secretary Jay Carney appeared to step back from the second part of President Obamas oft-repeated campaign promise: that Americans could keep their doctors if they like them. Carney hinted consumers could lose their doctors too saying, So, if you are looking for, if you want coverage from your doctor, a doctor that you've seen in the past, and want that, you can look and see if there's a plan in which that doctor participates in.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 20, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> I know I said this before but I'mma say it again.
> 
> You know the shit is bad, bad, bad when the left is avoiding this thread like the plague.  26 pages, 400+ posts in this thread and mums the word.  None of them are in here even trying to defend this crap.  Well, ok it isn't defendable.  _Still_.  Speaks volumes, doesn't it?



the left is showing that partisan politics are stronger than doing what is actually right.  there is no way anyone can actually believe this is the right way to do things.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > I know I said this before but I'mma say it again.
> ...




They were forced to do it this way -- by lying and overreach without competence or mandate -- because of how mean the Republicans were.  Donchaknow ....


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

President Obama Job Approval
RCP Average
Approve 40.3
Disapprove 55.3
Spread -15.0


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Time to Ditch Obamacare--a Plan to Rob Taxpayers | The Fiscal Times




> ....
> 
> If President Obama had pursued a more modest agenda instead of spending all of his political capital at what he must have seen as his shot at immortality, the country might be in better shape. As he would say, thats on him.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

In all of this we have to remember -- the policies people have lost aren't coming back.  And people won't be able to walk right back in to the jobs they have lost.  Hours might be increased again if we get a government which sees the wisdom in incentivizing employment instead of normalizing enrollment in government aid programs -- and some increases will happen just because humans keep striving no matter what their government does to them --  but the job market and our insurance infrastructure is still disrupted.

We can't go back.  

How do we go forward?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Long op-ed.  Great stuff.  

The Obamacare Crisis -- Thomas B. Edsall -- NYT


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

From that article:



> In some states, insurance companies operating through new health care state exchanges are excluding key hospitals from coverage. In New Hampshire, for example, as Jonathan Weisman of The Times reported, there is one provider, Anthem Blue Cross, and it has excluded 10 of the states 26 hospitals from participation in the companys coverage.



Will O-care put hospitals out of business?  

Here's the Weisman article which mentions details of what's happening in New Hampshire:

In Fracas on Health Coverage, Some Democrats Feel Exposed



> .... the federally run exchange for the state has attracted only one insurance provider, Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield, which touched off a furor when it excluded 10 of the states 26 hospitals from the health plans it offers through the exchange. Residents in the north of New Hampshire may have to drive an hour to find a hospital or doctor in their network. The Democratic governor, Maggie Hassan, is locked in a fight with the Republican-controlled Senate over how or whether to expand Medicaid as part of the health law.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Ooops ... I already closed the window ... but I just read an article about why O-care may still succeed.  It was about how insurance companies could make O-care work in spite of itself. 

If the website gets up and running, insurers will be back to advertising in earnest.  They'll do what they can to attract as many people as possible to purchase policies from them.  They'll spend big money to convince people to go to the exchange websites and pick them.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Obama's Slow Learning Curve | RealClearPolitics




> ....
> 
> But perhaps the presidents most astonishing statement involved an insouciant confession of ignorance. Returning to a common but under-appreciated motif of his presidency, Obama remarked: What were also discovering is that insurance is complicated to buy.
> 
> ...




Bam!


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

'You Can Keep Your Doctor': Obamacare's Next Broken Promise? | TIME.com




> ....
> 
> &#8220;Many people are going to find out that the second part of the promise &#8212; that if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor &#8212; just wasn&#8217;t true,&#8221; says Gail Wilensky, who directed the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs under President George H.W. Bush. Factcheck.org labeled the promise &#8220;misleading,&#8221; noting that while the law doesn&#8217;t contain provisions designed to force people to pick new doctors, a switch may be inevitable for some. &#8220;The President simply can&#8217;t make this promise to anyone,&#8221; the site wrote.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dante (Nov 20, 2013)

Amelia said:


> The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> 
> Marc Thiessen: The Obamacare implosion is worse than you think - The Washington Post



The good news it will all work out in the end. 

Obamacare enrollment?is kind of, sort of, working?

---

 5/23/2011 @ 1:17PM |142,216 views
More Solid Proof That Obamacare Is Working

and remember :
http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml

Obmacare is more than just a website and it has been working since :::



> Recent data provided by the nation&#8217;s largest health insurance companies reveals that a provision of the Affordable Care Act &#8211; or Obamacare &#8211; is bringing big numbers of the uninsured into the health care insurance system.
> 
> And they are precisely the uninsured that we want&#8211; the young people who tend not to get sick.
> 
> ...



---

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox...ng_in_the_states_where_the_website_works.html

The state-by-state nature of the Affordable Care Act exchanges isn't, in my opinion, a great idea. But since it generates variation it does give us useful data. For example, does the federal exchange IT infrastructure not work because the job is impossible or because someone screwed up? The answer is: Someone screwed up. Quite a few states have exchange sites that are working well. And are enrollments lagging because of IT problems or fundamental architectural flaws in the policy? The answer is IT problems:


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 20, 2013)

FORT COLLINS, Colo.  The Colorado healthcare exchange has processed applications for thousands of people  and one dog.
Shane Smith, of Fort Collins, says his dog Baxter received a letter informing him that a health insurance account had been opened in his name through Connect for Health Colorado.
I thought, Wow, this is so awesome, Smith said with a laugh. They have gone out of their way to insure my 14-year-old Yorkie.
Smith had called Connect for Health Colorado to sign himself up for insurance because his old plan was cancelled due to Obamacare.


Colo. man signs up for his insurance, his dog gets covered instead | KDVR.com

Best comments: 

*ObamaCare has gone to the dogs

*If your dog wants to keep his vet, he can keep his vet.

*Can the dog stay on (his plan) until he is 26?

*Even the dog wasn't allowed to keep his plan.

*Now the man will be notified that he has to come in and get neutered

*Doesn't subjecting this poor dog to the possibility of identity theft constitute cruelty to animals?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)




----------



## Jroc (Nov 20, 2013)

Put all your personal info in first?




> - President Barack Obama's HealthCare.gov site is riddled with security flaws that put user data of millions of people at risk and it should be shut down until fixed, several technology experts warned lawmakers on Tuesday.
> 
> The testimony at a congressional hearing could increase concerns among many Americans about Obama's healthcare overhaul, popularly known as Obamacare. Opinion polls show the botched rollout of the online marketplace for health insurance policies has hurt the popularity of the effort.
> 
> ...



Some cyber security experts recommend shutting Obamacare site


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## Jroc (Nov 20, 2013)

> *CBS News: 61 Percent Of Americans Disapprove Of Obamacare*
> 
> A majority of Americans are not pleased with the job President Barack Obama has been doing.
> 
> ...



CBS News: 61 Percent Of Americans Disapprove Of Obamacare « CBS DC


----------



## Amelia (Nov 20, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Put all your personal info in first?
> 
> 
> 
> ...






wow

Is that getting talked about on the news outlets?  

(I don't have cable and didn't even watch network tonight.)


----------



## percysunshine (Nov 20, 2013)

How long before some crypto-geek hacker with an inferiority complex signs up as an Obamacare Navagator and does a Snowden? Downloads the complete financial and health records of 100 Million people onto a memory stick.

Naw...never happen.


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## william the wie (Nov 20, 2013)

The end of hospital subsidies to keep ERs open started 10/1 but won't hit critical mass prior to the election.

Large sections of many red states have no coverage so migration of the indigent to blue states won't start until 4/15 when the fines are due for subtraction from EITC.

The 50-100 million estimated cancellations predicted for Oct. of next year will probably finessed into November.

The really bad news is back loaded out the wazoo.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 20, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Put all your personal info in first?
> ...



Probably wont hear it on network news, I don't watch  lot of TV myself. A local talk show here had the sound bites. all those experts saying "no" they wouldn't trust the site was really compelling actually


----------



## freedombecki (Nov 20, 2013)

The Obamacare questionnaire is now asking people for information about their gun ownership.

If that's not a Trojan Horse built into the alleged Affordable Care Act, I don't know what is.

Diane Feinstein is likely thrilled. She's been trying for almost a decade to get rid of the Second Amendment. By being in charge of health decisions, Democrats can now order who gets care and who doesn't get a life-saving procedure, and they can get a health care professional to declare gun owners unworthy of owning guns and take guns away through Obama Care.

This bad bill has other Trojan Horse clauses in it too that abridge your Bill of Rights Freedoms.

Trash the Bill!

It's a nightmare of ensuring that Americans will not be able to defend themselves from unfair government run by power-hungry dicks who make under-the-table deals with unfriendly governments, give away American investments, and now can control who lives and dies with Obamacare, who owns guns and not with Obamacare, etc.

*BEWARE! *
*OBAMACARE IS A TROJAN HORSE GOODY BAG!*​


----------



## Dante (Nov 21, 2013)

freedombecki said:


> The Obamacare questionnaire is now asking people for information about their gun ownership.
> 
> If that's not a Trojan Horse built into the alleged Affordable Care Act, I don't know what is.
> 
> ...


 http://mediamatters.org/mobile/rese...ehoods-about-doctors-and-guns-pushed-b/192305 



http://mediamatters.org/mobile/research/2013/01/17/four-falsehoods-about-doctors-and-guns-pushed-b/192305


Old weirdo attack from right
Four Falsehoods About Doctors And Guns Pushed By Conservative Media
January 17, 2013 1:17 PM EST &#8250;&#8250;&#8250; TIMOTHY JOHNSON


----------



## Jroc (Nov 21, 2013)

> *The progressive activist organization Media Matters for America funded the group that reportedly crafted President Obama&#8217;s false claim that Americans can maintain their &#8220;choice&#8221; of doctors and insurance plans*.
> 
> The little-known Herndon Alliance has been behind the marketing of Obamacare since the inception of the legislation.
> 
> ...



Media Matters funded Obamacare deceit


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 21, 2013)

> Many Americans browsing the Obamacare exchanges are finding the Affordable Care Act isn't living up to its name.
> 
> It's not just premiums that are bringing up the costs. Consumers are finding high deductibles, co-payments and other expenses that make the Obamacare policies seem more like catastrophic plans than comprehensive insurance.
> 
> ...



Are Obamacare plans affordable? - Yahoo Finance


----------



## koshergrl (Nov 21, 2013)

another thing that people don't understand...the eligibility requirements for MEDICAID clients is changing, and will result in restricted coverage and many welfare recipients being kicked off medical.

Right now the first people who are feeling the pain are the elderly and disabled, who have been booted from their charity programs vis a vis the health care act mandates, and who are currently undergoing treatment...and who now have zero coverage until...well, nobody really knows. I see them daily...the elderly and disabled who are asking "I have surgery coming up in a week...and I no longer have coverage...what am I supposed to do?"

They get a phone number, where they receive no answers at all, and no coverage. They will be the first to die, as their treatments and surgeries are postponed, and their prescriptions go unfilled.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 21, 2013)

I was posting about hospitals being kicked off of insurance policies and I thought that would put hospitals out of business.

Now I understand that those hospitals are still included in a lot of insurance policies -- those offered by employers.  Just not included in policies for the smaller portion of people who have to purchase off the individual exchange.  

WaPo: No, you can?t keep your doctor or your hospital in ObamaCare « Hot Air

So the hospitals may stay in business, at least until the rest of Obamacare results kick in.  But people on the individual exchanges have limited options.



> The decisions have provoked a backlash. In one closely watched case, Seattle Childrens Hospital has filed suit against Washingtons insurance commissioner after a number of insurers kept it out of their provider networks. It is unprecedented in our market to have major insurance plans exclude Seattle Childrens, said Sandy Melzer, senior vice president.
> 
> The result, some argue, is a two-tiered system of health care: Many of the people who buy health plans on the exchanges have fewer hospitals and doctors to choose from than those with coverage through their employers.
> 
> A number of the nations top hospitals  including the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles, and childrens hospitals in Seattle, Houston and St. Louis  are cut out of most plans sold on the exchange.


----------



## william the wie (Nov 21, 2013)

The marriage penalty will hit along with the employer exchanges and that will cause major controversy. Also there appears to be another penalty for children 18-26. I would like to give crisp numbers but legal and financial analysts are all over the map on penalty size for spouses and I haven't seen even guesstimates for adult children.


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## Amelia (Nov 21, 2013)

Hopkins: ObamaCare Forced Mom Into Medicaid - WSJ.com




> ....
> 
> Before ObamaCare, Medicaid was one option. Not the option. Before this, she had never been, in effect, ordered to take a handout. Now she has been forced to join the government-reliant poor, though she would prefer to contribute her two mites. The authorities behind "affordable care" had erased her right to calculate what she was willing to spend to preserve her dignityto determine what she thinks is affordable.
> 
> ...


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 21, 2013)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrxXrxifY-Q"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrxXrxifY-Q[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 21, 2013)

lol


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## Amelia (Nov 21, 2013)

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...ts-extension-of-obamacare-canceled-plans.html


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## Amelia (Nov 22, 2013)

Daniel Henninger: Worse Than ObamaCare - WSJ.com


That title is misleading.  What Obama has done with the economy isn't worse than Obamacare -- it is part of Obamacare.  Instead of making sure the stimulus was going where it could help, he let it be wasted and in case that wasn't enough of a drag on the economy, he instituted Obamacare to smother it further.




> The ObamaCare train wreck is plowing through the White House in super slow-mo on screens everywhere, splintering reputations and presidential approval ratings. Audiences watch popeyed as Democrats in distress like Senators Kay Hagan, Mary Landrieu and Mark Pryor decide whether to cling to the driverless train or jump toward the tall weeds. The heartless compilers of the Washington Post/ABC poll asked people to pick a head-to-head matchup now between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. Mitt won. This is the most amazing spectacle of mayhem and meltdown anyone has seen in politics since Watergate.
> 
> No question, it's tough on Barack Obama. But what about the rest of us? For many Americans, the Obama leadership meltdown began five years ago.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 22, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Daniel Henninger: Worse Than ObamaCare - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> That title is misleading.  What Obama has done with the economy isn't worse than Obamacare -- it is part of Obamacare.  Instead of making sure the stimulus was going where it could help, he let it be wasted and in case that wasn't enough of a drag on the economy, he instituted Obamacare to smother it further.
> ...




False. He has not, does not, can not, is incapable of: leading.  It is totally and completely beyond his pay grade.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 22, 2013)

Health Care Law Fails to Lower Prices for Rural Areas

Not just fails to lower -- actually increases.  

That article is a month old but it's important.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 22, 2013)

> Get ready to be blindsided by a barrage of new taxes. $1 trillion worth...
> 
> They'll be coming courtesy of the Affordable Care Act, otherwise known as Obamacare.
> 
> ...



Money Morning


----------



## Amelia (Nov 22, 2013)

From October 1:

Court Cases Challenge the Legality of Federal Exchanges Subsides - Health Insurance Exchange




> Last year the nation awaited the fate of the Affordable Care Act as the U.S. Supreme Court considered National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius. Today, two lesser-known federal cases threaten to undermine not just the individual mandate but possibly the entire ACA structure for expanding health care coverage for all Americans.
> 
> The ACA requires the creation of a health insurance exchange in each state that will serve as a competitive marketplace where individuals and small businesses can purchase private health insurance. If a state refuses to establish an exchange then the federal government is taking over the implementation.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 23, 2013)

A brief refresher of some ObamaLies. 

Remembering Stanley Ann Dunham Obama | RealClearPolitics

 This one seems good to highlight for the benefit of @$$hole liberals who claim that criminally abusive insurance companies justified Obama's lies:



> In a 2010 radio address, Obama said one carrier was "systematically dropping the coverage of women diagnosed with breast cancer." The CEO of WellPoint, which had reason to believe the president was referring to her company, responded that they had provided coverage in the previous year to 200,000 breast cancer patients and had canceled just four policies for fraud or misrepresentation.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 23, 2013)

Why are liberals still defending obamacare? ESPECIALLY SINCE IT'S ALREADY BEEN PROVEN A LIE.


----------



## william the wie (Nov 23, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Why are liberals still defending obamacare? ESPECIALLY SINCE IT'S ALREADY BEEN PROVEN A LIE.


It's their chosen role in life?


----------



## Rebelitarian (Nov 23, 2013)

Amelia said:


> The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> 
> Marc Thiessen: The Obamacare implosion is worse than you think - The Washington Post



All part of the economic implosion coming up...........

John Perkins "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIHKWd9rSc]John Perkins "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"Extended Interview 2008 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 23, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Why are liberals still defending obamacare? ESPECIALLY SINCE IT'S ALREADY BEEN PROVEN A LIE.



Because "obama!"  They will not allow him to fail.  No. Matter. What.  True story.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 23, 2013)

Young invincibles aren't buying into Obamacare | Washington Times Communities




> After President Obama&#8217;s backpeddle on the cancellation of individual insurance policies, the administration has regrouped with guns blazing. According to Thursday&#8217;s Politico, Obama held an &#8220;off-the-record&#8221; meeting with liberal reporters and bloggers including MSNBC&#8217;s Lawrence O&#8217;Donnell, Washington Post&#8217;s Ezra Klein, and Fox News contributor Juan Williams.
> 
> Williams appeared on the Fox News program &#8220;The Five&#8221; and said he couldn&#8217;t reveal the president&#8217;s remarks, but would give the context of the meeting. The goal of the meeting was to discuss how to get control of the messaging on the Affordable Care Act. Williams described the administration to be in &#8220;full fight mode&#8221;.
> 
> ...





It _is_ like a scary movie.  The criminal White House leaving the criminally insecure website online and penalizing people who choose not to hand over their personal information to a dishonest, incompetent bureaucracy which just wants to use them to finance their dishonest agenda, while giving marching orders to the "journalists" who've done the most faithfully ideological reporting for the administration in the past.  

Not the best plot, but definitely scary.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 23, 2013)

Sticker shock hits health exchange shoppers -- USA Today



> Sweeping differences in health care exchange pricing among states and counties is leading to sticker shock for some middle-class consumers and others who aren't eligible for subsidies under the Affordable Care Act.
> 
> The average prices for the most popular plans are twice as high in the most expensive states as those with the lowest average prices, according to a USA TODAY analysis of data for 34 states using the federal health insurance exchange.
> 
> ...


----------



## william the wie (Nov 23, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Sticker shock hits health exchange shoppers -- USA Today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What kind of non-subsidy eligible idiot goes anywhere near the exchanges? I am expecting a spam avalanche next November when my insurance is cancelled.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 23, 2013)

Most people probably don't know whether they're eligible for subsidies.  I thought they didn't let you know until after you turned over all your information.  

And how many people are savvy enough about insurance to know how to find the best insurance options if they've had their policy cancelled?


----------



## william the wie (Nov 23, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Most people probably don't know whether they're eligible for subsidies.  I thought they didn't let you know until after you turned over all your information.
> 
> And how many people are savvy enough about insurance to know how to find the best insurance options if they've had their policy cancelled?


 That I can't tell you but my wife is home recovering from back surgery and it sounds like the powder room tom-tom is putting out the word from what I gather when she asks me to remind her of something. (I sometimes have to remind her of when Danielle was born and I thought that experience was supposed to be highly memorable.)


----------



## Antares (Nov 23, 2013)

Most insurance agents can figure someone's subsidy.


----------



## Vox (Nov 23, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Woman cited by President as Obamacare success story frustrated by sign up process -- CNN Political Ticker
> 
> Wow.  As of this point she cannot get insurance.  Contradicting their first estimates, the Washington state exchange now says she qualifies for no subsidies and she says cannot afford any of the plans available.



But she still supports obama


----------



## Katzndogz (Nov 23, 2013)

The insurance is useless.  In some cases not only have the premiums gone up for coverage a person neither needs nor wants, but the deductible is so high that the policy is actually worse than major medical/hospitalization.  That was the cheapest policy.  For someone young it was $50.00 a month.  Pay out of pocket for doctor visits but you're covered from day one in the hospital.  Under obamacare, premiums have tripled or quadrupled.  If you go to the hospital the deductble is up to $13,000.  

Democrats say major medical was a rip off.   If anything bankruptcies for medical bills can only increase as people can't pay high premiums and the kind of deductibles this insurance has.  

The public should have figured this out long ago.  It's disappointing  that they are currently still slow in catching on.  But, they are catching on.  That's at least something.


----------



## Katzndogz (Nov 23, 2013)

Antares said:


> Most insurance agents can figure someone's subsidy.



The subsidy is a fake.


----------



## Vox (Nov 23, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Long op-ed.  Great stuff.
> 
> The Obamacare Crisis -- Thomas B. Edsall -- NYT



this is a great article and this quote is worth being put in gold as it is clearly overthrowing our leftards lies when they always compare obamacare woth medicare and SS:
*
The Affordable Care Act is often compared to Social Security and Medicare, but these comparisons are imprecise and misleading, as Edward Carmines, a political scientist at Indiana University, put it in an email: ]The distinctive feature of the new health care law is its redistributive nature, which is mostly absent from Social Security and Medicare. *


In addition, the *Affordable Care Act can be construed as a transfer of benefits from Medicare, which serves an overwhelmingly white population of the elderly  77 percent of recipients are white  to Obamacare, which will serve a population that is 54.7 percent minority. * Over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office, the Affordable Care Act cuts $455 billion from the Medicare budget in order to help pay for Obamacare.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 23, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ZW3b-5iYE]Bunny Ranch Hookers Love Obamacare - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## william the wie (Nov 23, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> The insurance is useless.  In some cases not only have the premiums gone up for coverage a person neither needs nor wants, but the deductible is so high that the policy is actually worse than major medical/hospitalization.  That was the cheapest policy.  For someone young it was $50.00 a month.  Pay out of pocket for doctor visits but you're covered from day one in the hospital.  Under obamacare, premiums have tripled or quadrupled.  If you go to the hospital the deductble is up to $13,000.
> 
> Democrats say major medical was a rip off.   If anything bankruptcies for medical bills can only increase as people can't pay high premiums and the kind of deductibles this insurance has.
> 
> The public should have figured this out long ago.  It's disappointing  that they are currently still slow in catching on.  But, they are catching on.  That's at least something.


Compliant non-exchange policies can and will use multiple loopholes to get around this mess and totally deconstruct the pre-Obamacare medical system. By the time Obama leaves office the law of unintended consequences will lead to not just a lower cost medical industry but a much lower employment industry including one or more private lending tree style sites for non-exchange insurance brokerage. Leaving all of the people automated out of jobs violently anti-D.


----------



## Vox (Nov 23, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> The insurance is useless.  In some cases not only have the premiums gone up for coverage a person neither needs nor wants, but the deductible is so high that the policy is actually worse than major medical/hospitalization.  That was the cheapest policy.  For someone young it was $50.00 a month.  Pay out of pocket for doctor visits but you're covered from day one in the hospital.  Under obamacare, premiums have tripled or quadrupled. * If you go to the hospital the deductble is up to $13,000. *
> 
> Democrats say major medical was a rip off.   If anything bankruptcies for medical bills can only increase as people can't pay high premiums and the kind of deductibles this insurance has.
> 
> The public should have figured this out long ago.  It's disappointing  that they are currently still slow in catching on.  But, they are catching on.  That's at least something.



Much worse than that - in my state if it is out-of the network ( which means a good hospital, not just a small community type one) the deductible is 25,000 for an individual.

So if you need a cancer treatment or a complicated surgery - you are broke.
Because for an individual making 46,000 per year ( and subsidies do not exist for the vast majority even earning much less than that) - you either die or you are broke altogether.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 23, 2013)

when a crack smoking mayor has  better ratings than you its probably time to admit your healthcare plan is a failure

Crack smoking mayor Rob Ford has higher approval rating than Obama


----------



## william the wie (Nov 23, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> when a crack smoking mayor has  better ratings than you its probably time to admit your healthcare plan is a failure
> 
> Crack smoking mayor Rob Ford has higher approval rating than Obama


Less broken promises?


----------



## Antares (Nov 23, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Most insurance agents can figure someone's subsidy.
> ...



No, they aren't.
Sorry


----------



## Vox (Nov 23, 2013)

Antares said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



Except it is :

CNN: No Obamacare subsidy for some low-income Americans - CNN.com

_One of the basic tenets of Obamacare is that the government will help lower-income Americans -- anyone making less than about $45,900 a year -- pay for the health insurance everyone is now mandated to have.

But a CNN analysis shows that in the largest city in nearly every state, many low-income younger Americans won't get any subsidy at all. Administration officials said the reason so many Americans won't receive a subsidy is that the cost of insurance is lower than the government initially expected. Subsidies are calculated using a complicated formula based on the cost of insurance premiums, which can vary drastically from state to state, and even county to county.

That doesn't change the fact that in Chicago, a 27-year old will receive no subsidy to help offset premiums of more than $165 a month if he makes more than $27,400 a year.

In Portland, Oregon, subsidies for individuals making just $28,725 a year phase out for those younger than 35 years old.

....

*Despite the secretary's assurance, a 25-year-old living in Nashville, Tennessee, making $25,500 will not qualify for a subsidy, for example*


*The percentage people have to pay for insurance increases on a sliding scale, with those making $11,490 paying no more than 2% of their income, and those making $45,960 paying no more than 9.5% unless they choose to select a more expensive plan.*_

so it is a fake - if you want a plan which is necessary for your needs ( a more expensive plan than the bronze crap) - you won't qualify for a subsidy even if it exceeds almost a 10% of your income of 46,000 - which is ~4,500$ per year and that amount is a HUGE amount for somebody earning 46,000$


----------



## Antares (Nov 23, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



Sorry, they aren't.

Demographics determine subsidies.....Age, Income, dependents......my daughter is 29, makes 30 grand...she gets nothing.

My client today...52......26000 she gets 383.....her premium is 56 bucks after subsidy.

Sorry.


----------



## Vox (Nov 23, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



I understand and it was known from the beginning that it is a sliding scale, but it is exactly what she wrote - a FAKE.
*Because the subsidy is also for the bronze HMO plan, if you want a better one than the bronze HMO crap - you won't get any subsidy.
*
and the article clearly states - the young ones are going to be hit the most, so your example of 52 yo is irrelevant.
Plus it differs from state to state and even from county to county.

So a big fat FAKE, as usual with dimocrap lies.

sorry


----------



## Amelia (Nov 23, 2013)

"Fake" may not be the right word.

Subsidies exist.  But as on other matters, falsehoods have been told about them.


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## Antares (Nov 23, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Well except that the 383 applies to the Silver Plan....you lose.


----------



## Antares (Nov 23, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



You think I am a Dem????

LMFAO


----------



## Antares (Nov 23, 2013)

The subsidies do not change depending on the plan 

The subsidies are what they no matter what plan is selected


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



No, I do not.
I quoted the article and that what is said there.
Either CNN is lying or you simply don't know anything except the situation  in your state.


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



I know you are NOT a dem.
However, it seems know-it-all approach here is not necessarily true.
Or CNN and their sources are lying.
You know the situation in your state particularly.

It differs even from county to county - so your knowledge might be limited.
I do not have any reason to dispute the CNN sources telling that the amount of sliding scale subsidies vary greatly from state to state. I also do not have any reason to question their statement that it might be applicable to some plans only, also on a state to state basis.


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Amelia said:


> "Fake" may not be the right word.
> 
> Subsidies exist.  But as on other matters, falsehoods have been told about them.



which only to be expected if one takes into consideration a big fat lie this all law is.

it was obvious from the very beginning that a subsidy to someone who earns 13,000 per year and is barely over the poverty limit is going to be greater than for the one who earns 40,000.
But it was not known that states can decide NOT to allocate ANY subsidies even for the lower amount of earnings - and that is what the CNN article points to.
Especially for the plans they deem to be "low cost" already.

The definition of "low cost" by a state or a city ( as is an example of 165$ per month for somebody earning 28K) is not exactly what I would consider low cost at that amount of earnings.


----------



## Katzndogz (Nov 24, 2013)

People were snookered into supporting obamacare because they thought it would be free, paid for by the "rich" who would have to pay only a  "little bit more".   Parents who thought that keeping their 25 year old adult child on their insurance plan never imagined that they would have to pay for it.  It was supposed to be free and come out of the insurance company's profits.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 24, 2013)

There is so much left to learn about how the subsidies are actually working.  This article from the WSJ tries to summarize ACA issues and doesn't even touch on the psychological voter backlash which is going to come when people start to learn more about inequities in rates and subsidies, with significant differences between neighbors who live on different sides of a county line.  [Edit: and other surprise costs like Katz just mentioned.]

Review & Outlook: Manias, Panics and ObamaCare Crashes - A reader's guide to the coming Affordable Care Act traumas -- WSJ.com


----------



## Amelia (Nov 24, 2013)

What is Obama going to do for people who sustain high medical bills in between the time their insurance policies lapse and the time they are able to secure the wonderful new insurance he has in store for them?


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 24, 2013)

Amelia said:


> There is so much left to learn about how the subsidies are actually working.  This article from the WSJ tries to summarize ACA issues and doesn't even touch on the psychological voter backlash which is going to come when people start to learn more about inequities in rates and subsidies, with significant differences between neighbors who live on different sides of a county line.  [Edit: and other surprise costs like Katz just mentioned.]
> 
> Review & Outlook: Manias, Panics and ObamaCare Crashes - A reader's guide to the coming Affordable Care Act traumas -- WSJ.com



Physician dissatisfaction. U.S. medicine is under major financial strain, but not because the government is paying for quality instead of volume as liberals claim. The fee-for-service status quo is largely intact and reimbursement is merely being squeezed down.* Exchange insurance with Medicaid-style networks pays Medicaid rates, while ObamaCare's Medicare cuts are also sending that program's price controls to Medicaid levels*.

These rates are already so low that many *doctors won't take new government patients.* Look for many doctors to start to conclude they will make a better livingand have more autonomyby opting out. *Providers participating in federal programs are subject to onerous quality-reporting rules, even if the metrics don't accurately measure quality. The Affordable Care Act treats health professionals like robots on a factory line who can be reprogrammed to execute federal work orders.*

I can personally attest the above in bold to be true.

There is so much anxiety in the healthcare community.


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 24, 2013)

Amelia said:


> What is Obama going to do for people who sustain high medical bills in between the time their insurance policies lapse and the time they are able to secure the wonderful new insurance he has in store for them?



A question that has been bothering me is, if someone moves to a different county or state do they take their health insurance with them or would they have to start all over for the year with a new plan while attempting to reach their deductibles?


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 24, 2013)

politics aren't, but failure is

Obamacare sign-up delayed -- for 2015 - CNN.com


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 24, 2013)

it is just one mistake piled on top of another.  I mean seriously, look at the failure to even launch the program, design a website and we want these morons running our actual healthcare plan?  

Obamacare Agency Rushed To Hire Contractor, Documents Reveal


----------



## Amelia (Nov 24, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > What is Obama going to do for people who sustain high medical bills in between the time their insurance policies lapse and the time they are able to secure the wonderful new insurance he has in store for them?
> ...




That's a really good question.

They'd probably want to at least consider getting a new policy because wherever they move the nearby caregivers would likely be out-of-network and thus more expensive.  

But I'm guessing they'd also be on the hook for a new deductible.


GREAT question!  

I want an answer.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 24, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> it is just one mistake piled on top of another.  I mean seriously, look at the failure to even launch the program, design a website and we want these morons running our actual healthcare plan?
> 
> Obamacare Agency Rushed To Hire Contractor, Documents Reveal



wow.  no freakin kidding.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 24, 2013)

> The administration's "it's only five percent" dropped coverage, damage control talking points are as tone deaf and ineffective as they are factually false. Andy McCarthy lays the mendacity bare:
> 
> Even this 5 percent figure is a deception. As Avik Roy points out, the individual market actually accounts for 8 percent of health-insurance consumers. Obama cant help himself: He even minimizes his minimizations. So, if Obama were telling the truth in rationalizing that his broken promises affect only consumers in the individual-insurance market, wed still be talking about up to 25 million Americans...But thats not the half of it. Obamas claim that unwelcome cancellations are confined to the individual-insurance market is another brazen lie. In the weekend column, I link to the excellent work of Powerlines John Hinderaker, who has demonstrated that, for over three years, the Obama administrations internal estimates have shown that most Americans who are covered by employer plans will also lose their coverage under Obamacare. Mind you, 156 million Americans get health coverage through their jobs. John cites the Federal Register, dated June 17, 2010, beginning at page 34,552 (Vol. 75, No. 116). It includes a chart that outlines the Obama administrations projections. The chart indicates that somewhere between 39 and 69 percent of employer plans would lose their grandfather protection by 2013. In fact, for small-business employers, the high-end estimate is a staggering 80 percent (and even on the low end, its just a shade under half  49 percent).
> 
> ...



Report: 'Second Wave of Health Plan Cancellations Looms' - Guy Benson


----------



## william the wie (Nov 24, 2013)

Your source is wrong about at least one thing ZB, employer coverage cancellations have already begun. The place where I eat Sunday breakfast the owner has already got his cancellation notice and was talking about it when I came in. The rush out of the exchanges due to premium hikes will be pre-election and that will be all she wrote.


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



It changes zip code to zip code.
If one qualifies for a subsidy one can use it on any plan they wish...sorry.

The "know it all" approach 

It's called being educated in the process and in the indistry...



Financial Assistance Estimator

$746.00

Based on your information, this is the estimated monthly amount of financial assistance from the government you may be eligible to receive.
 Note, the amount of financial assistance cannot be more than the premium cost of the plan selected. If you choose a lower cost plan, your financial assistance will be reduced to the cost of the plan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Questions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------















Coverage Level


Median Premium


Your Estimated Assistance


Estimated Monthly Payment



bronze


$903.00


-


$746.00


=


$157.00



silver


$1,154.00


-


$746.00


=


$408.00



gold


$1,357.00


-


$746.00


=


$611.00



platinum


$1,539.00


-


$746.00


=


$793.00









Bronze Plans on the Exchange

Generally, lowest monthly premiums

Higher out-of-pocket costs when you receive care

60% coverage (you pay 40%)


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

746 across the board.

I tried to tell you


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

https://www.askblueinsurance.com/bcbsne

Go ahead, play with it yourself 

The law is the law, and it is Nationwide...no state gets its own rules.


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## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> It changes zip code to zip code.
> If one qualifies for a subsidy one can use it on any plan they wish...sorry.
> 
> The "know it all" approach
> ...



are you saying that CNN  is lying?


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> 746 across the board.
> 
> I tried to tell you





across the board WHAT?


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > It changes zip code to zip code.
> ...



Not my call 

I can tell you however that the ones getting screwed are the young making less than 11500.


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > 746 across the board.
> ...



LOL.

That scenario....ALL scenarios in which anyone qualifies for a subsidy said subsidy can be used with any level of plan....


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> https://www.askblueinsurance.com/bcbsne
> 
> Go ahead, play with it yourself
> 
> The law is the law, and it is Nationwide...no state gets its own rules.



*Except they do.*

And that is the whole pint here:

CNN: No Obamacare subsidy for some low-income Americans - CNN.com

One of the basic tenets of Obamacare is that the government will help lower-income Americans -- anyone making less than about $45,900 a year -- pay for the health insurance everyone is now mandated to have.

But a CNN analysis shows that in the largest city in nearly every state, many low-income younger Americans won't get any subsidy at all. Administration officials said the reason so many Americans won't receive a subsidy is that the cost of insurance is lower than the government initially expected. Subsidies are calculated using a complicated formula based on the cost of insurance premiums, which can vary drastically from state to state, and even county to county.
*
That doesn't change the fact that in Chicago, a 27-year old will receive no subsidy to help offset premiums of more than $165 a month if he makes more than $27,400 a year.*

*In Portland, Oregon, subsidies for individuals making just $28,725 a year phase out for those younger than 35 years old.*

....

*Despite the secretary's assurance, a 25-year-old living in Nashville, Tennessee, making $25,500 will not qualify for a subsidy, for example*


*Explain these exact bolded statements - how can they change the rules  - the details are regulated by the state and HHS, not the law itself, BTW - and not give ANY subsidy to the guys in Oregon, Chicago and TN.*


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



except the CNN article with it's examples disputes your statement.

Did you read it?


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



the young making less than 11500 are Medicaid-eligible, so they are not screwed at all.

The ones being screwed the most are the ones earning one cent more above the set threshold - those are screwed the most.

Plus those who are being gauged by additional taxes.


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.askblueinsurance.com/bcbsne
> ...



Are you stupid?

I just said that the young are getting screwed the worst, educate yourself then get back to me.


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



(sigh) Whatever 

No they do not all qualify....its cute how you think CNN is the gospel.


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



it is you who are STUPID - I have posted the exact same link and the exact same text couple of pages before and that is when you pompously started your diatribe about the 52 yo you have just had with a subsidy 

except I never was talking about your 52 year olds.

Only about THIS article, which you, obviously, were too lazy to read.

But did not forget to put your imaginable crown of know-it-all.

Turns out you don't know it.

At all.


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Sure I do.....my daughter is 29, makes 30 grand and gets nothing.....so no....there aren't special rulles for different States.....not all young folks making less tha 11500 qualify for Medicare...and you7r aticle does nothing to disput one thing I've said....

Apparently you need to show everyone you have the bigger dick.....sorry.


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Poor Vox.


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



I do not think it is the gospel.

It was simply about the area never disputed before - and as the vast majority of people I have had the impression that the subsidies are there if one is earning less than the threshold.

They were the first to announce it is not so.

Therefore I posted the link and cited some excerpts.

I do not qualify for any subsidy, so my interest is purely academical.

Since you know insurance industry from inside, you might be a great help to actually point what might be true, what might be not.

Instead you get all wired for no reason.

The question was - did you encounter anything resembling what they describe - the set up rules of lowering the amount of subsidy threshold ( and substantially) depending on the age group?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 24, 2013)

Obamacare will kill middle class | The Detroit News


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Sure I do.....*my daughter is 29, makes 30 grand and gets nothing.*....so no....there aren't special rulles for different States.....not all young folks making less tha 11500 qualify for *Medicare*...and you7r aticle does nothing to disput one thing I've said....
> 
> Apparently you need to show everyone you have the bigger dick.....sorry.



take a breath, because you are going to get a stroke here and your daughter( and I assume wife) still need you 

The ones earning less than poverty level qualify for Medicaid, not Medicare, if they are young - that's for one.
If your daughter earns 30K and is 29 and does not qualify for a subsidy - you have just proved that CNN article got those fact correctly.

so why were you objecting earlier with your 52 yo?


----------



## Antares (Nov 24, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Sure I do.....*my daughter is 29, makes 30 grand and gets nothing.*....so no....there aren't special rulles for different States.....not all young folks making less tha 11500 qualify for *Medicare*...and you7r aticle does nothing to disput one thing I've said....
> ...




LOL.
You should go back and read, you've done nothing to disprove anything I've said.....
You can't get under my skin, nobody can...this is just the intenet.

You see, I live/do healthcare all day, every day....I know what the rules are, I know what the law says....

All day long.


----------



## Vox (Nov 24, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



I don't have to disprove anything - it was YOU who jumped on me and Katz for telling that in some instances all the salvos about subsidies are FAKE - and now you stated the same with an example of your own daughter 

so it was YOU who was trying to disprove the facts presented in the article not even reading the article and not bothering to understand what both of us were saying.

You were so full of yourself that you dd not even understand what we were pointing at.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 25, 2013)

Can someone remind me again just what benefits obamcare provides to hardworking americans?  since when is paying more for less a good thing? 

Companies Prepare to Pass More Health Costs to Workers - Yahoo Finance


----------



## jon_berzerk (Nov 25, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> Can someone remind me again just what benefits obamcare provides to hardworking americans?  since when is paying more for less a good thing?
> 
> Companies Prepare to Pass More Health Costs to Workers - Yahoo Finance



organizing for America 

has instructed the "youth" to inform you at the Thanksgiving table 

of the benefits of obamacare

they also want them to tell you that guns suck 

--LOL


----------



## william the wie (Nov 25, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> Can someone remind me again just what benefits obamcare provides to hardworking americans?  since when is paying more for less a good thing?
> 
> Companies Prepare to Pass More Health Costs to Workers - Yahoo Finance


It destroys the HMO system.

It creates incentives for faster migration of jobs and investment away from compliant states and medicaid recipients to the 15 compliant states.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 25, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0O2rydgz9A]NC Small Biz Owner: Obamacare Driving Me To Drink - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Antares (Nov 25, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



(smile) The subsidies aren't fake....
A) You either qualify or you don't
B) You can use them on any plan you want.

Just thank me and go play in the yard.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 25, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpnn4npwyKc]Virginia Cancer Patient's Insurance Terminated Due To ObamaCare - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Nov 25, 2013)




----------



## william the wie (Nov 25, 2013)

Amelia said:


>


Yeah, some text would be nice but the MSM isn't touching this with a fork on the end of a barge pole, at least not yet.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 25, 2013)

The Great Destroyer - WSJ.com

"Did these folks ever study history, economics or sociology?"

That really is the question of the century.


----------



## Vox (Nov 25, 2013)

Antares said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



of course they are fake - as your daughter and all other young adults across the country have learned recently. or are going to learn. and that was the point of the article and the very point of my statement.

Too bad you still do not get it 
I don't care about the subsidies.
But it turns out they are just another Lie in this total big lie - which does not surprise me at all - because the left always lies


----------



## Vox (Nov 25, 2013)

Amelia said:


> The Great Destroyer - WSJ.com
> 
> "D*id these folks ever study history, economics or sociology*?"
> 
> That really is the question of the century.



No. And they also try not to teach the young generation to have an honest information on those subjects.

Because the ignorant ones are easy to manipulate.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 26, 2013)

and the costs continue to escalate

U.S. government plan adjusts 2014 risk payments for health insurers


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

"Not one thin dime"


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

Democrats Fear Obamacare Will Cost Them The Senate - NationalJournal.com


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

Large employers cite Obamacare 'Cadillac' tax in reducing benefits - NBC Investigations


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

Obama's Broken Promise (Chapter Two) | RealClearPolitics


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

Thomas Miller and Abby McCloskey: The Next ObamaCare Mirage - WSJ.com
The new line is that the health-care law will save money. That's also not true.


----------



## william the wie (Nov 26, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Democrats Fear Obamacare Will Cost Them The Senate - NationalJournal.com


 But more than 146 house Democrats will survive to sustain presidential vetoes.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

The Magnitude of the Lie | The Blog on Obama: White House Dossier


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 26, 2013)

Vox said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...


It's like going to the store and the sign says "Sale 50% Off" then you look at the price and notice the sale price is the same price as it was last week, only they choose to double the regular price.  You ask the manager and he says, yeah the price is going up next week because of new regulations and we thought you'd prefer to see a sale sign this week than a price doubled sign next week.


----------



## william the wie (Nov 26, 2013)

Obama makes Nixon look like a plaster saint but so what? He won't be impeached if for no other reason than time constraints. His vetoes will be sustained. The loony-left will become even more psychotic as all D moderates lose either primary or GE votes. The TEA party will grow and so it goes.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 26, 2013)

> *Nurse w/Disabled Child Wants Plan Back after ObamaCare Doubles her Premium*
> 
> My plan does not qualify under the Affordable Care Act because it does not include maternity coverage. I am a 41-year-old woman with three children (one with moderate-severe autism and mental retardation). I am not having any more children.
> 
> ...



Nurse w/Disabled Child Wants Plan Back after ObamaCare Doubles her Premium | FrontPage Magazine


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

It's criminal.

What the h*** is Obama going to do for people whose bank accounts and savings plans he has destroyed?  

That's so horrible.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 26, 2013)

Jroc said:


> > *Nurse w/Disabled Child Wants Plan Back after ObamaCare Doubles her Premium*
> >
> > My plan does not qualify under the Affordable Care Act because it does not include maternity coverage. I am a 41-year-old woman with three children (one with moderate-severe autism and mental retardation). I am not having any more children.
> >
> ...



WOW Obama even lied to a single mother of three who is a nurse!  Something should be done about these democrat leaders who have turned out to be lying scum.


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 26, 2013)

​


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

Obama did this to these people on purpose and lied out his @$$ about it.  This is evil.


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 26, 2013)

Amelia said:


> It's criminal.
> 
> What the h*** is Obama going to do for people whose bank accounts and savings plans he has destroyed?
> 
> That's so horrible.



*Bankruptcies resulting from unpaid medical bills will affect nearly 2 million people this year&#8212;making health care the No. 1 cause of such filings,* and outpacing bankruptcies due to credit-card bills or unpaid mortgages, according to new data. And even having health insurance doesn't buffer consumers against financial hardship.

Medical Bills Are the Biggest Cause of US Bankruptcies: Study


How many families will go bankrupt just paying premiums and deductibles over the next few years?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 26, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > It's criminal.
> ...





It's not even clear that there is going to be a net increase in the number of insured Americans.   Medical bankruptcy is still going to be a big problem.  What will the next fix be?


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 26, 2013)

Amelia said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...




Bailouts?


----------



## william the wie (Nov 26, 2013)

Amelia said:


> It's criminal.
> 
> What the h*** is Obama going to do for people whose bank accounts and savings plans he has destroyed?
> 
> That's so horrible.


Teach them to never vote D? But not all of them. I suspect he will have 20-30% approval for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 26, 2013)

Amelia said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



So many more people are being forced onto Medicaid. People who had insurance and were paying for it themselves now on Medicaid. Medicaid confiscates people's property for payment if they pay for illness. insurance companies don't, but these idiot libs are so happy with all the new Medicaid subscribers


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 26, 2013)




----------



## william the wie (Nov 26, 2013)

Amelia said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...


There won't be one prior to 2017 and that will be making state plans compliant no matter what. Compliant states will go belly up as will blue states in general as the bankrupt and unemployed move in while investment moves out.


----------



## william the wie (Nov 26, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...


Absolutely right. Homelessness will reach levels higher than during the great depression.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 27, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...


After bankruptcy, medical care is free (taxpayer funded) through medicaid.  It would appear more people are going on medicaid than the health care exchanges by 4 to 1.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 27, 2013)

A health care lemon: Americans have a right to an Obamacare refund -- Ben S. Carson


----------



## Amelia (Nov 27, 2013)




----------



## Spoonman (Nov 27, 2013)

This is what happens when your plan is not true healthcare reform

Working but poor? Fear the dreaded coverage gap. - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Amelia (Nov 27, 2013)

Health law business insurance site delayed 1 year - San Jose Mercury News



> CHICAGOPresident Barack Obama's administration has announced yet another delay in the rollout of the health care law. An online health insurance marketplace for small businesses is being put off until November 2014 to make sure the HealthCare.gov website gets fixed first.
> According to an internal administration document obtained by The Associated Press, employers who want to buy marketplace plans for their workers now will need to go through an agent, broker or insurance company. The administration says the plan will allow small businesses to buy coverage, without slowing technical repairs to the hobbled federal site.
> 
> The marketplace was supposed to provide small businesses a new way to shop for coverage.
> ...




A longer story with more details:  Obama administration delays small business exchange again; won't be ready until late 2014 - The Washington Post


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 27, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Medicaid won't do jack sh!t in taking care of people.

Docs are refusing new patients.

Medicaid pays a flat rate fee per Pt. visit no matter what procedures are performed.
Let's not even discuss Hospital, Post Acute or LTC reimbursement rates.

Watching health cared facilities 'dancing' for Pt. in order to keep their doors open and provide care * PISSES ME OFF! *

*This is not how people are supposed to be treated in a civilized country!*


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 27, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...


AYUP, and that's the direction the democrat leadership is driving the entire country.  A country where everything sucks, but it's ok in their mind because it's managed by government to be that way.


----------



## william the wie (Nov 27, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> This is what happens when your plan is not true healthcare reform
> 
> Working but poor? Fear the dreaded coverage gap. - Yahoo Finance


This is the migration incentive I've mentioned in other posts.


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 27, 2013)

*Non-partisan group paid $1 million to produce positive Obamacare stories
*



Families USA Received $1 Million to Promote ObamacareCapitol City Project


----------



## Amelia (Nov 27, 2013)

A coupla days ago NPR ran a piece full of sunshine stories -- then added a disclaimer about some outside shill organization being responsible for the content.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 27, 2013)

nothing like lowering the bar  lol

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-...folly--the-80-percent-standard-173326169.html


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 27, 2013)

I can't blame Obama for not wanting this mess to launch any further until after the 2014 elections

US health law insurance site delayed 1 year - Yahoo Small Business Advisor


----------



## william the wie (Nov 27, 2013)

This law will become a deadletter before it is finally repealed.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 28, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HCwiOculqo]WAAY-AL Alabamans Angry And Upset Over ObamaCare And Obama's Broken Promises - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 28, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> I can't blame Obama for not wanting this mess to launch any further until after the 2014 elections
> 
> US health law insurance site delayed 1 year - Yahoo Small Business Advisor



exactly after the election damn you people.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 28, 2013)

> Parents: Turkey isnt the only thing to talk about at Thanksgiving this year. #GetTalking pic.twitter.com/f3mpGL3f9U
> 
>  Barack Obama (@BarackObama) November 27, 2013




This Thanksgiving Message Tweeted by Barack Obama is a Real Turkey | Independent Journal Review

He's an ass.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 28, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> > Parents: Turkey isnt the only thing to talk about at Thanksgiving this year. #GetTalking pic.twitter.com/f3mpGL3f9U
> >
> >  Barack Obama (@BarackObama) November 27, 2013
> 
> ...



Guy's a Libtard what do you expect?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 29, 2013)

Medicaid Growth Could Aggravate Doctor Shortage



> SAN DIEGO &#8212; Dr. Ted Mazer is one of the few ear, nose and throat specialists in this region who treat low-income people on Medicaid, so many of his patients travel long distances to see him.
> 
> But now, as California&#8217;s Medicaid program is preparing for a major expansion under President Obama&#8217;s health care law, Dr. Mazer says he cannot accept additional patients under the government insurance program for a simple reason: It does not pay enough.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 29, 2013)

The Bad Faith Presidency | RealClearPolitics



> At the end of the day, the root of President Obama&#8217;s mendacity on ObamaCare was simple: He didn&#8217;t dare tell people how the law would work. He couldn&#8217;t tell people how the law would work.
> 
> Forthrightness was the enemy. It served no useful purpose and could only bring peril, and potentially defeat. It had to be banished. Instead, President Obama made the sale on the basis of dubious blandishments and outright deceptions.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 29, 2013)

The Media Need to Do More to Help People Navigate Obamacare - The American Prospect

^^
Just curious about whether these people thought the media should have done more to expose the lies which allowed Obamacare to pass in the first place while there was still time to do something about it


----------



## william the wie (Nov 29, 2013)

Amelia, unless your own kids are caught up in this mess just relax and get you own angle on this separation of fools and their money. This is the best free lemonade ever. Your gain and some poor fool volunteer's pain.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 29, 2013)

william the wie said:


> Amelia, unless your own kids are caught up in this mess just relax and get you own angle on this separation of fools and their money. This is the best free lemonade ever. Your gain and some poor fool volunteer's pain.




????

No matter what the benefits are, I won't forget how Democrats made mockery of the democratic process in 2009.  

It's convenient for me that Obama was so flagrant in his lies and that I have no foreseeable benefit from what they did and that they have been so damnably incompetent in the rollout, because it might have been hard to keep standing up and shouting about the insult to democratic principles from the "we're doing this for your own good but you're too dense to understand it" president.  So I am glad Obama has made it easy.

The economic cost is secondary.  The worst cost is the assault on democratic principles.  The economic cost will help others understand the evil Obama perpetrated on us.  

I know my angle.  And I'm not going to "relax".


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 29, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Medicaid Growth Could Aggravate Doctor Shortage
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Expansion may worsen lack of doctors - Longview News-Journal: Nation

Same article...I'm not signed up for the snooty NYT...


----------



## Amelia (Nov 29, 2013)

Sometimes when I follow the link to the NYT it says I've gone over my limit, but then I just look the title up on google.  For some reason I can read the pages when I open them from google.


----------



## Jroc (Nov 30, 2013)

> *Latest health law delay: small business website*
> 
> Small businesses interested in buying marketplace health insurance plans for their workers will have to purchase them from agents, brokers or insurance companies for the next year, rather than through the government website. The Obama administration, in yet another delay, is putting off the launch of its online portal to the health insurance marketplace for small businesses until November 2014. The move, announced Wednesday, was needed because repairs are still underway to the troubled HealthCare.gov website, which is the primary way for individuals to apply for insurance, and that has priority, federal officials said. The administration said the plan will still allow small businesses to buy coverage while avoiding a slowdown in technical repairs to the hobbled federal online site.



Latest health law delay: small business website | CNS News


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 30, 2013)

considering this part was written in by the lobbyists for the big pharmaceuticals, I smell a sales pitch for more drugs being pushed on patients.  

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/11/29/the-most-revolutionary-aspect-of-obamacare.aspx


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 30, 2013)

if you take your car in for service and you get it back still not working, you bring it back and they fix it at no extra charge.  that's the way it goes for all services provided.  So why can our government be allowed to charge us for a service, one we don't even want actually. Remember they are using our tax dollars for all of this.  then it doesn't work and they charge us more to fix it.   Fucked up if you ask me.  we need to unelect the idiots who laid this mess on us.

Health Site Is Improving But Likely to Miss Saturday Deadline - WSJ.com


----------



## percysunshine (Nov 30, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Sometimes when I follow the link to the NYT it says I've gone over my limit, but then I just look the title up on google.  For some reason I can read the pages when I open them from google.



The New York Times has a quota for the number of conservatives that read their articles. Once they reach the quota, they lock out the rest of us.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 30, 2013)

LOL.  Check this out:

Affordable Care Act


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 30, 2013)

^  lol pretty much sums it up.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 1, 2013)

Hopefully this thing will be repealed by 2017



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LCztGF-d4]Plouffe: Obamacare Will Be Great by 2017 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 1, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Hopefully this thing will be repealed by 2017
> 
> 
> 
> Plouffe: Obamacare Will Be Great by 2017 - YouTube



What will happen they'll try to figure how to fix it just like they've tried to figure out how to fix social security. 
obamacare is the new fat cow for the government easy money just like social security is. It's not going anywhere.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 1, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully this thing will be repealed by 2017
> ...



We don't just lay down and accept it the fight for our liberty goes on


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 1, 2013)

Jroc said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



if this waits until 2017 it will be too late.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 1, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...


Agree with your sentiment but not your opinion.
A) This law is causing an increase in bankruptcies now due to the botched rollout. That will become a common statistic everyone knows because of the astronomical cost of insurance from the exchanges.
B) This law has increased non-acceptance of medicaid. So far no one is keeping track of waiting line deaths. That will most likely become a sticky on this message board. 
C) Hospital closures will rise exponentially due to the end of federal subsidies of hospitals and this list goes on.

But the key fact is that due to safe seats in the house held by single payer advocates it is not possible until 2017 to get the votes to repeal this pos.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 2, 2013)

Scott Pruitt: ObamaCare's Next Legal Challenge - WSJ.com



> The law says subsidies can only go through state-run exchanges.
> 
> As millions of Americans see their health-insurance premiums increase, have their coverage dropped as a result of the Affordable Care Act, and are unable to use the federal exchange, Oklahoma has sued the Obama administration. The Sooner State and several others are trying to stop the government from imposing tax penalties on certain states, businesses and individuals in defiance of the law. If these legal challenges are successful, the deficit spending associated with the new health-care law could be reduced by approximately $700 billion over the next decade.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Dec 2, 2013)

^^

That one looks like a biggie!


----------



## william the wie (Dec 2, 2013)

yeah I started a thread about it.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 2, 2013)

so 100,000 added.  5,000,000 cancelled.   and they call this progress? 

Obamacare Sign-Ups Exploded In November - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Amelia (Dec 2, 2013)

Long but interesting:

Hard Sell | The Weekly Standard

"Going door-to-door for Obamacare" ....


----------



## orBeMezaTtnoD (Dec 2, 2013)

Now all you have to do is take a number and wait to be called - why does this sound like the DMV? - oh yeah, the government is running it.












Well I'm through with watching this channel.​​


----------



## Amelia (Dec 2, 2013)

Marc Thiessen: For Democrats in 2014, the Web site is not the problem - The Washington Post





> Democrats are praying that this weekends relaunch of the Obamacare Web site will save them from an electoral bloodbath in 2014. Their hopes are misplaced. Here are five numbers that suggest that public anger over Obamacare will only grow as Election Day 2014 approaches:
> 
> *5.5 million.* That is how many people the administration needs to sign up in just 23 days because Obamacare drove them out of their health-care plans. Thats some 240,000 sign-ups every single day, just to break even. Getting that many enrolled in a few weeks would be extraordinarily difficult even if the Web site were working perfectly, which it isnt. According to the New York Times, the system is still sending insurers inaccurate or incomplete information, and the companies are being deluged with phone calls from people who believe they have signed up for a particular health plan, only to find that the company has no record of the enrollment. As a result, many Americans could find themselves without insurance on Jan. 1. Their anger at those responsible for putting them through this panic and disruption is not likely to subside by November 2014.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Dec 2, 2013)

How Obamacare Turned Me Into an Activist | RealClearPolitics


----------



## Amelia (Dec 2, 2013)

Insurers Claim Health Website Is Still Flawed




> Weeks of frantic technical work appear to have made the government's health care website easier for consumers to use. But that does not mean everyone who signs up for insurance can enroll in a health plan.
> 
> The problem is that so-called back end systems, which are supposed to deliver consumer information to insurers, still have not been fixed. And with coverage for many people scheduled to begin in just 30 days, insurers are worried the repairs may not be completed in time.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Dec 2, 2013)

Fact Check: Is President Obama's latest health care promise true? | Fox News



> Is President Obamas latest health care promise  that his plan will offer most people a better plan for the same price or less than their current policy  actually true?
> 
> Some analysts say no.
> 
> ...


----------



## percysunshine (Dec 2, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Scott Pruitt: ObamaCare's Next Legal Challenge - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I saw that to. Learned something new today. I have always wondered why the IRS has stated that they will only recover the fines for not having health insurance from any refunds due to the filer. They will not asses delinquent taxes. This may be why. If the courts rule that the fines can only be imposed in States with exchanges, maybe only the State can levy the fines.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 2, 2013)

> Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, a liberal Democrat, says decisions about health care should rest with the federal government, not with individual employers who pay for their workers' health insurance. "So, you know, this is one country," Dean told CNN's "State of the Union" with Candy Crowley on Sunday. "We all have to live by a set of things that are passed in Washington and agreed to by the court. We'll see what the court does, but I don't think a particular employer has a right to decide what kind of health care their employees are going to get. *That's now in the hands of the federal government, and that's where it should be*



Howard Dean: Employers Have No Right to Make Health Decisions, But Gov't Does | CNS News


----------



## Amelia (Dec 3, 2013)

Obamacare's New Goal: Stay Alive Until 2015 - Bloomberg


----------



## Amelia (Dec 3, 2013)

Democrats can't hide from Obamacare's middle-class pinch | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 3, 2013)

Insurers still don't know the full extent of the problems associated with back-end issues on healthcare.gov and are wary of Obama administration officials' claims they are fixing the problem quickly and fully.




Insurers wary of Obama admin claims about back-end website fixes | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 3, 2013)

I accidentally ran across this and am not sure what it means.

http://radio.foxnews.com/2013/12/03/house-holds-hearing-on-presidential-authority/


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 3, 2013)

Steps to Insurance Industry Bailout?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/u...ssistance-for-losses.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Links and details in link.


----------



## boedicca (Dec 3, 2013)

Well of course.   That's why so many Insurance companies are keeping silent about the EPIC FAIL of Obamacare.  They've sunk vast sums of money into their Obamacare implementations...and their only hope to recover the money is a bail out.

Which of course makes Obama's promise that Obamacare won't "cost a dime" another Big Fat Lie.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 3, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> I accidentally ran across this and am not sure what it means.
> 
> http://radio.foxnews.com/2013/12/03/house-holds-hearing-on-presidential-authority/



Does Obama have the authority to change the law as he wishes? That's what he's doing


----------



## dblack (Dec 3, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Well of course.   That's why so many Insurance companies are keeping silent about the EPIC FAIL of Obamacare.  They've sunk vast sums of money into their Obamacare implementations...and their only hope to recover the money is a bail out.
> 
> Which of course makes Obama's promise that Obamacare won't "cost a dime" another Big Fat Lie.



The insurance industry is playing the long game, and the mandate is everything. They know that the details will be ironed out via lobbying and, in the end, if the mandate holds, they win.


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 3, 2013)

Jroc said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > I accidentally ran across this and am not sure what it means.
> ...





Obama 'crossed the constitutional line,' House panel is told - CSMonitor.com

Two constitutional law professors told Congress on Tuesday that President Obama exceeded his authority when he unilaterally extended the deadline for enforcement of the employer mandate in the Affordable Care Act.

They said he also &#8220;crossed the constitutional line&#8221; when he issued an executive order suspending enforcement of US immigration laws to prevent the deportation of immigrants who arrived illegally in the US as children.

The law professors made their comments during a three-hour hearing before the House Judiciary Committee, which is examining a string of unilateral actions taken by the White House that critics say usurped legislative powers or bypassed limits on executive authority.

*Here is one of the professors who testified:  George Washington University Law Professor Jonathan Turley *

Professor Turley is widely regarded as a champion of the rule of law, and his stated positions in many cases and his self-proclaimed "socially liberal agenda". have led liberal and progressive thinkers to also consider him a champion for their causes, especially on issues such as separation of church and state, environmental law, civil rights, and the illegality of torture. Politico has referred to Turley as a "liberal law professor and longtime civil libertarian". Turley has nevertheless exhibited his disagreement with rigid ideological stances in contradiction to the established law with other stated and published opinions.
In numerous appearances on Countdown with Keith Olbermann and The Rachel Maddow Show, he has called for criminal prosecution of Bush administration officials for war crimes, including torture.


----------



## Listening (Dec 3, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...



He has spent most of his sorry administration across the line.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 4, 2013)

i thought obamcare was supposed to improve things?  can't our government get anything right?

Ten Countries Where People Live Longest - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Jroc (Dec 4, 2013)

lets hope It seems they're all running from it to me...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDxW6ha4UQw#t=14]Debbie Wasserman Schultz: 'All of our candidates' will run on Obamacare - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 4, 2013)

this article is interesting. looks like obama took a 9% hit from voters who did vote for him but would not again if they had to do it over.

But what is really interesting is the numbers on obamacare.  even among obama supporters.  wow, they trash it.  and it looks like they have no intent on participating.  enrollment numbers aren't low just because of the failed website. they are low because as pelosi said they had to launch it to see what it was all about. now they saw and they reject it 

Most youth unhappy with Obama's job performance: poll


----------



## koshergrl (Dec 4, 2013)

It doesn't matter. The fix is in. 

"
An Obamacare fix quietly announced on Black Friday could put states at risk for higher Medicaid costs and even fraud.
Although Medicaid sign-ups through HealthCare.gov have been considered a rare bright spot in the flawed Obamacare rollout, the federal portal has been unable to send those Medicaid applications to the states for final processing. If states can&#8217;t receive and complete their work on Medicaid applications by the end of the year, people could go without Medicaid coverage in early 2014 despite having an eligibility determination."


Read more: Medicaid, insurance fixes may be big trouble later - Kyle Cheney - POLITICO.com

I've been telling people on this site that this was going to happen...I've been telling them that for the last year or more.

People are going to die, and not in small numbers.


----------



## koshergrl (Dec 4, 2013)

Where are those morons who were saying "well thank goodness medicaid and medicare aren't affected"...fucking idiots.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 4, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Well of course.   That's why so many Insurance companies are keeping silent about the EPIC FAIL of Obamacare.  They've sunk vast sums of money into their Obamacare implementations...and their only hope to recover the money is a bail out.
> 
> Which of course makes Obama's promise that Obamacare won't "cost a dime" another Big Fat Lie.



very telling that they haven't launched the massive advertising budgets they have allocated for the estimated influx.  they are realizing at this point, it would be money wasted


----------



## Amelia (Dec 4, 2013)

Short-term fix eyed for another problem with U.S. healthcare website | Reuters



> ....
> 
> The administration is planning a "workaround" for payments, said Daniel Durham, vice president for policy and regulatory affairs at America's Health Insurance Plans.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Dec 4, 2013)

Republicans Should Be Falling Over Themselves To Thank President Obama - Forbes


----------



## Jroc (Dec 4, 2013)

> *IRS Has No Strategy for Fraudulent Obamacare Tax Credits*
> 
> The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has no system in place to prevent fraud when individuals apply for tax credits under Obamacare, according to the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA).
> 
> The IG said in an audit released Tuesday that the IRS has no plan to manage, monitor, or mitigate fraud risk when processing premium tax credits



IRS Has No Strategy for Fraudulent Obamacare Tax Credits | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## william the wie (Dec 4, 2013)

So people are invited to steal.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 5, 2013)

> *Administration Finalizes Obamacare Tax Over Holiday Weekend*
> 
> *Health Insurance Tax to Raise Premiums by 3%, Cost $60 Billion Over Next 5 Years*
> 
> The Obama administration quietly finalized the Health Insurance Tax (HIT) over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, a provision in Obamacare that will cost nearly $60 billion over the next five years and raise health care premiums by 3 percent.



http://freebeacon.com/administration-finalizes-obamacare-tax-over-holiday-weekend/


----------



## Amelia (Dec 5, 2013)

Sneaky, sneaky.  So many details in that link.  A must read.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 5, 2013)

TK posted this in another thread:

Presentation of Findings from National Research Conducted Among Business Decision-Makers | U.S. Chamber of Commerce


(September-October 2013)


----------



## Amelia (Dec 5, 2013)

« The Three Failed Promises of ObamaCare Commentary Magazine


----------



## william the wie (Dec 5, 2013)

Amelia said:


> « The Three Failed Promises of ObamaCare Commentary Magazine


Don't worry about it. Pelosi designed this bill to fail. 

Before Obama leaves office no one except subsidy recipients will be on any of the exchanges.

Tax revenues will effectively decline because the fine can only be collected from refunds and the EITC so people will pay in 4/15.

McKinsey has been predicting that US automation will underprice Chinese wages by 2015 and you do have to buy or borrow it on Amazon to read it. However you can do your own calculations with Matthew's "Robotics" thread here on this board. Short form, anyone making more than $3.40/hour in the world is at ever higher risk of unemployment. 

The downside is the ACA is a Republican wet dream so it will die very slowly. Even if Paul or Cruz becomes president in 2017 and veto proof R majorities are in congress expect the death to be very slow.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 5, 2013)

sure, the young can afford it.  they only have student loans and limited job prospects to face.   put the burden on them.

ObamaCare Raises Health Insurance Premiums, Especially For The Young - Forbes


----------



## william the wie (Dec 5, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> sure, the young can afford it.  they only have student loans and limited job prospects to face.   put the burden on them.
> 
> ObamaCare Raises Health Insurance Premiums, Especially For The Young - Forbes


I concur. and mainly wanted to make sure this argument is seen at least twice.


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 6, 2013)

amelia said:


> tk posted this in another thread:
> 
> presentation of findings from national research conducted among business decision-makers | u.s. Chamber of commerce
> 
> ...



wow!


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm arguing with longlaugher and billyerock about this on another thread.  Their contributions to the argument so far are "zoom is batting 1000 from the echo chamber' and 'don't trust forbes or wsj'.    Some argument, eh?  They also seem to think that obama never said that there would be a savings of "$2,500 per year, per family".  Are they playing the "you didn't hear that" game?  By jov, they are!



> I have earlier demonstrated that the most absurd version of this Obama promise$2500 in annual premium savings before the end of his first termmissed by a mile.[1]  Average premiums for family coverage have increased $2,976 by the end of his first term. Thus, we can accurately say that both in direction and magnitude reality turned out to be worse than the opposite of what the president pledged 5 years ago.
> 
> But Prof. Cutler is not trying to defend this ludicrous promise. Instead, he is arguing in favor of a much more modest claimthat Obamacare would reduce total health spending per family by as much as $2,500 below trend.[2] And his analysis sounds pretty convincing until you learn what he hasnt told you. The very same official forecast that he cites showed that had ACA not been enacted, health spending in 2016 would be $80 billion lower than is now expected under Obamacare (compare Table 2 with Table 2a). Either the Medicare actuaries are correct (Obamacare will increase spending by $80 billion in 2016 relative to what would have happened without the law) or David Cutler is right that thanks to Obamacare, medical spending in 2016 is $2,500 per family of 4 lower than it would be otherwise. Both cannot be right. My bet is on the Medicare actuaries.









David Cutler vs. Medicare Actuaries: Who Is Right About Obamacare's Impact On Health Spending? - Forbes


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 6, 2013)

i'm telling you, before its over you are going to see doctors and hospitals start refusing obamcare policies.  at every turn there seems to be another issue.  getting the website functioning will be the worst thing for obamcare because then more and more issues will come to light.

Obamacare's Perilous Protection Plan for Debtors


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 6, 2013)

ok,  you know when his initial prime supporters start to jump ship the issues are real

Young Invincibles on Obamacare: ?We?re Not Impressed? - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Amelia (Dec 6, 2013)

Some discussion of numbers of people denied care for preexisting conditions, versus the numbers of people who have been adversely impacted by the ACA:

No talk of affordable health care in Obamacare PR push | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## Care4all (Dec 6, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> i'm telling you, before its over you are going to see doctors and hospitals start refusing obamcare policies.  at every turn there seems to be another issue.  getting the website functioning will be the worst thing for obamcare because then more and more issues will come to light.
> 
> Obamacare's Perilous Protection Plan for Debtors


I would love to see the actual law that michelle malkin is speculating about....she did not link to it....as usual and expects the world to believe her on her word....and she may very well be trustworthy to do such, but she still should have linked to this law, as a real journalist would have....

here is what is said in her article:



> But the bureaucrats at the  Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services decided to issue a rule in  March making insurers responsible only for paying claims during the  first 30 days of the debtors' grace period. Who's on the hook for the  other two months? Well, customers are entrusted to foot the bills for  additional services. But if they blow off the payments, it's up to  physicians and hospitals to collect.


Who are these bureaucrats in Medicare and Medicaid that introduced this "rule" in March?  
Where is the "rule", is there a copy of it anywhere...is it in print?

And her article says this is for MEDICARE and Medicaid recipients....????

Is the rule ALSO for people who buy Obamacare on the exchange?  She talks as if it is the rule for those on the exchange as well, doesn't she?  Yet she never mentioned this "rule" covering those who bought on the marketplace?

So, who knows what this is all about....we need more answers, more information, I guess?


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 6, 2013)

Care4all said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > i'm telling you, before its over you are going to see doctors and hospitals start refusing obamcare policies.  at every turn there seems to be another issue.  getting the website functioning will be the worst thing for obamcare because then more and more issues will come to light.
> ...



It always helps me when I go straight to the source:
Michelle Malkin | Obamacare?s perilous protection plan for debtors «

The article didn't say Medicare and Medicaid recipients, but did reference  Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (aka CMS).

Here are links from the original article, not the copied Yahoo article.

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20130817/MAGAZINE/308179924

Under the rule interpreting the law, insurers offering plans on the exchanges must provide a three-month grace period to individuals who have enrolled and who have stopped paying their premiums. In the first 30 days, the insurer must continue to pay incurred claims. But for subscribers who ultimately fail to pay premiums within the 90 days and whose coverage is terminated, payers are not required to pay for claims incurred during the last 60 days of the 90-day period. 

Commenters Say ACA Grace Period Rule Puts Unfair Burden on Hospitals, Providers | Bloomberg BNA

I can tell you this is already happening with MediCal and Managed MediCal in California. Providers are having to stay on top of when  a patient reverts from Managed MediCal to regular MediCal. 
*The State is not communicating with the provider. *
This is especially daunting to hospitals, long term care facilities or any type of inpatient facility. 
MediCal  pays a flat rate per day no matter what type of inpatient treatment is giving to the patient.
It is rare when a provider breaks even with a MediCal patient.
It gets even more complicated when contractual Managed MediCal ends for a patient who then reverts to regular MediCal.
The provider isn't notified and when they do find out about the insurance switch the provider is responsible for enrolling the patient in MediCal.
Since the provider is already caring for the patient at a loss the delay in enrollment results in further loss of reimbursement for the patient.
Having to jump through hoops like these is one reason providers are staying away from MediCal patients.


----------



## Care4all (Dec 6, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...


here is some more info on it....several articles following California vs the feds on it....  I am reading them now....
http://www.cmanet.org/news/detail/?article=exchange-grace-period-continues-to-confound-
News Articles - News - California Medical Association


----------



## Care4all (Dec 6, 2013)

looks like it was all settled and taken care of and clarified in September, and there is no problem anymore...

Insurance companies will be responsible for first 30 days of medical care, 60-90 days they will SUSPEND their insurance, so all docs and hospitals will not have to see the patient and or provide any services (unless it is a life or death situation) when they see the patient has been suspended....

here's the article explaining it....

Federal, state regulators weigh in on novel grace period proposal - News - California Medical Association



> Only a few weeks before California&#8217;s health benefit  exchange begins open enrollment, major strides have been made on the  topic of the federal grace period provision, an issue which initially  looked as though it would bring significant financial risks to the  state&#8217;s physicians.
> In late August, federal regulators from the Centers for Medicare and  Medicaid Services (CMS) informed state officials that a proposal to  suspend coverage in months two and three of the federal grace period was  generally &#8220;consistent&#8221; with federal policy. Under this proposal, health  plans would not be able to represent to physicians that a patient&#8217;s  coverage was active during an eligibility verification in months two and  three of the grace period. Previously some plans had intended to  continue representing the patient as having &#8220;active&#8221; coverage, despite  months of unpaid premiums.





> The proposal to suspend coverage was put forward by the state&#8217;s  Department of Managed Health Care (DMHC) in an attempt to remedy the  state-federal conflict and preserve California&#8217;s hard-fought patient and  provider protections. Under DMHC&#8217;s proposal, physicians would provide  services during the first month of the grace period, and those claims  would be paid normally. However, during months two and three of the  grace period, providers would not be under an obligation to render  non-emergent services pursuant to their contracts with health plans, and  health plans would not be under an obligation to pay claims for those  services if rendered &#8211; similar to an HMO enrollee seeking out-of-network  care. Enrollees would still be able to pay out-of-pocket for services  on a fee-for-service basis.
> DMHC has since communicated the basics of its suspension of coverage  policy to plans participating in Covered California&#8217;s new online health  insurance marketplace. Additionally, Covered California outlined how it  sees the grace period provision functioning during its September  meeting, noting that plans will be responsible for informing physicians  that an enrollee&#8217;s coverage has been suspended, paying claims submitted  during the first month regardless of whether or not premiums had been  paid, and enrollees would assume financial responsibility for any care  received during the second and third months of the grace period under a  coverage suspension. Stakeholders are still awaiting details as to the  requirements on plans for reinstating a patient&#8217;s coverage, such as  applicable notices and timeframes.





looks like Michelle Malkin and others, didn't do enough research or follow through on it?  

And HOORAY for California fighting tooth and nail for Fed clarification!


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 6, 2013)

Care4all said:


> looks like it was all settled and taken care of and clarified in September, and there is no problem anymore...
> 
> Insurance companies will be responsible for first 30 days of medical care, 60-90 days they will SUSPEND their insurance, so all docs and hospitals will not have to see the patient and or provide any services (unless it is a life or death situation) when they see the patient has been suspended....
> 
> ...



Now we're talking apples and oranges...probably some pineapple in there also.  

The Department of Managed Health Care is the regulatory body governing HMOs.
Information about health plans, HMOs, PPOs and health insurance

DMHC is part of California Health and Human Services Agency.
chhshome

Read through the pages and please find where it was resolved.
My family will thank you very much!


----------



## Jroc (Dec 7, 2013)

> *Obamacare will kill middle class*
> 
> *Obamacare is the biggest assault ever on the middle class.*
> 
> ...





Obamacare will kill middle class | The Detroit News


----------



## Amelia (Dec 7, 2013)

I keep thinking that the money is going somewhere, but where?

Someone will benefit from middle class Americans' discretionary income being diverted from buying a new car or making home improvements or taking family vacations, but who will be benefiting?  

It won't be doctors or nurses.  This won't raise  their wages.  With more patients on Medicaid and the meager reimbursement rates care providers will receive, medical staff are also feeling the pinch in the pocketbook.  

So where is that money going?  Who is going to see an economic lift from this?  

I think I want to ask those questions in a thread of their own.  I'll be moving this discussion to the Clean Debate Zone in case anyone wants to follow it there.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 7, 2013)

Obama has shown how a future GOP president can gut Obamacare | WashingtonExaminer.com



> I owe Mitt Romney an apology.
> 
> During the 2012 Republican presidential primary season, I repeatedly criticized Romney &#8212; and personally challenged him during his editorial board meeting with the Washington Examiner &#8212; for promising that if elected, on day one of his presidency, he would grant Obamacare waivers to all 50 states.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Dec 7, 2013)

"If the administration wanted to go further, a Republican HHS secretary could potentially issue a revised Internal Revenue Service ruling eliminating health insurance subsidies on the federally run exchanges, in accordance with the actual text of Obamacare."

^^

What a novel, priceless concept!  A Republican president could nuke Obamacare by actually following the law.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 7, 2013)

Amelia said:


> "If the administration wanted to go further, a Republican HHS secretary could potentially issue a revised Internal Revenue Service ruling eliminating health insurance subsidies on the federally run exchanges, in accordance with the actual text of Obamacare."
> 
> ^^
> 
> What a novel, priceless concept!  A Republican president could nuke Obamacare but actually following the law.


True and likely. Given the probable flight of primary care doctors especially from exchange coverage and the subpar finances of Blue/purple states and districts Obama has probably nuked the D base for a very long time.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 7, 2013)

lol,  so you just think you signed up for obamcare.  well the good news is, participation has been so low, not all that many will really be effected.

Quarter of Early Obamacare Enrollments Had Errors


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 7, 2013)

Don't remember seeing this one, sorry if it's a repeat though.



> The Obama administration has directly conceded for the first time that 'in many cases,' health insurance plans offered through government exchanges are more expensive than plans consumers bought before the Affordable Care Act became law  even when government subsidies are figured in.
> 
> In a letter to state insurance commissioners, Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight director Gary Cohen wrote on Thursday that one reason for the new Obamacare measures the president announced Thursday is that millions of consumers receiving cancellation letters from their insurers are learning the Affordable Care Act options are in fact less affordable.
> 
> ...



Obamacare plans cost more 'in many cases' even WITH government subsidies, Obama administration admits for the first time | Mail Online

(full letter at link)


----------



## Jroc (Dec 7, 2013)

Harry Reid can afford it some of us can't



> *Harry Reid: Obamacare 'Costs Me About $4,500 More'*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Harry Reid: Obamacare 'Costs Me About $4,500 More'


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 7, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Harry Reid can afford it some of us can't
> 
> 
> 
> ...



6mil, no wonder he doesn't give a shit about these insurance increases.  Just a drop in the bucket for him.  Can we not hang our politicians for treason any more?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2013)

They can not run, they can not hide, they can not lie.  obamacare's true, ugly side is showing.  _They don't care_.

Chris Wallace interview with Zeke Emanuel <--- the bastard



> The host, Chris Wallace, said: "President Obama famously promised, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Doesn't that turn out to be just as false, just as misleading, as his promise about if you like your plan, you can keep your plan? Isn't it a fact, sir, that a number, most, in fact, of the Obamacare health plans that are being offered on the exchanges exclude a number of doctors and hospitals to lower costs?"
> 
> "The president never said you were going to have unlimited choice of any doctor in the country you want to go to," said the Obamacare architect.
> 
> ...



Obamacare Architect: If You Like Your Doctor, You Can Pay More | The Weekly Standard

Video at link.

The bolded?  During his campaign obama pledged families would save up to $2,500 on their premiums.  Per year, per family.  Liar.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 8, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> They can not run, they can not hide, they can not lie.  obamacare's true, ugly side is showing.  _They don't care_.
> 
> Chris Wallace interview with Zeke Emanuel <--- the bastard
> 
> ...


Wrong, look at the pro-Obamacare posts on this and other threads. They still believe.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2013)

william the wie said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > They can not run, they can not hide, they can not lie.  obamacare's true, ugly side is showing.  _They don't care_.
> ...



The idiot zombies will believe no matter what.  Their #1 goal is they can not let him fail.  What the admin, etc. can no longer do is hide from it.  obamacare is showing it's nuts and bolts.  The sane people are seeing proof of what we've known all along .... exactly how it is, how we've been lied to, how we've been scammed.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 8, 2013)

True but belief does not persist after death and medicaid waiting line deaths will grow like topsy. Since recipients of medicaid are the base of the Democratic party that is one problem.

The second problem is that the bond ratings of D states and local governments will on average go down faster and further under the stress of this act. That means that defaults will be a primarily D problem as in Detroit and Harrisburg. This will undermine the relatively moderate Ds and the current radicals of the party will become the new moderates to drive away investment. This will create a vicious cycle worse than the one that now exists.


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 8, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> They can not run, they can not hide, they can not lie.  obamacare's true, ugly side is showing.  _They don't care_.
> 
> Chris Wallace interview with Zeke Emanuel <--- the bastard
> 
> ...



I actually caught this on TV while folding laundry.
My jaw dropped!!

Rahm's brother.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Dec 9, 2013)

*Dear Leader is not to be challenged*

A California county has banned a veteran employee from criticizing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act because a coworker who overheard the criticism was offended.

The employee is Norina Mooney, who has logged some 20 years of work experience with Santa Clara County, the epicenter of Silicon Valley.

According to Mooneys attorneys with the Pacific Justice Institute, she made some water-cooler talk with a fellow employee about the high number people who have had their insurance policies canceled under Obamacare

California county censors employee who criticizes Obamacare | The Daily Caller


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 9, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


> *Dear Leader is not to be challenged*
> 
> A California county has banned a veteran employee from criticizing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act because a coworker who overheard the criticism was offended.
> 
> ...




norina mooney's Page ? Tea Party Patriots Silicon Valley

Activity ? Tea Party Patriots Silicon Valley

She is a very very bad girl!


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 9, 2013)

OSAWATOMIE, Kan.  The winner of an Obamacare video contest put on by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is either completely oblivious or participating in the most obvious misdirection campaign weve ever seen.

Entitled *Forget About the Price Tag,* the video is the musical equivalent of some guy standing on the sidelines shouting Hey look over there, a moose!

Obamacare video winner: 'Forget about the price tag' « Watchdog.org


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpRNAkG-Nx0#t=65"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpRNAkG-Nx0#t=65[/ame]


----------



## dblack (Dec 9, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> OSAWATOMIE, Kan.  The winner of an Obamacare video contest put on by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is either completely oblivious or participating in the most obvious misdirection campaign weve ever seen.
> 
> Entitled *Forget About the Price Tag,* the video is the musical equivalent of some guy standing on the sidelines shouting Hey look over there, a moose!
> 
> ...



Wow.... have we sunk that low?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 9, 2013)

SNL shills obamacare.

Politics Nation | Video | Saturday Night Live | NBC


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 9, 2013)

> The good news, if you want to call it that, is that roughly 1.6 million Americans have enrolled in ObamaCare so far.
> 
> The not-so-good news is that 1.46 million of them actually signed up for Medicaid. If that trend continues, it could bankrupt both federal and state governments.




ObamaCare created a Medicaid time bomb | New York Post


----------



## Jroc (Dec 9, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> OSAWATOMIE, Kan. &#8212; The winner of an Obamacare video contest put on by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is either completely oblivious or participating in the most obvious misdirection campaign we&#8217;ve ever seen.
> 
> Entitled &#8220;*Forget About the Price Tag,*&#8221; the video is the musical equivalent of some guy standing on the sidelines shouting &#8220;Hey look over there, a moose!
> 
> ...



actually you do need a lot of "money..money..money"



> *High Deductibles Chase the Middle Class from Health Services*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Articles: High Deductibles Chase the Middle Class from Health Services


----------



## Amelia (Dec 9, 2013)

Obama's Iraq | National Review Online


----------



## Amelia (Dec 9, 2013)

The PJ Tatler » Covered California Abuses Privacy Rights of Consumers


----------



## Amelia (Dec 9, 2013)

Even the New York Times is now admitting that Obamacare is unaffordable.

ACA? ObamaCare Not So Affordable « Commentary Magazine



> ....
> 
> There are Americans who are, as the Times points out, grateful to get any kind of insurance at all and will suffer with ObamaCares costs due to its allowing those with pre-existing conditions to be covered. But the numbers of those who are benefiting from the new health-care regime appear to be heavily outnumbered by those who are being either inconvenienced or gouged by the Affordable Care Act. Thats why the expectation that once it is implemented it will be popular appears to be based on some faulty assumptions. As the ranks of the ObamaCare losers grows, the burden of affordable care that turns out to be not so affordable is turning the ACA into an albatross sinking President Obamas second term.




When the NYT backs off from a democrat's Big Lie, that lie might actually be in trouble.


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 9, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Even the New York Times is now admitting that Obamacare is unaffordable.
> 
> ACA? ObamaCare Not So Affordable « Commentary Magazine
> 
> ...




http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/09/u...r-costs-can-be-high.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&


WASHINGTON  But as consumers dig into the details, they are finding that the deductibles and other out-of-pocket costs are often much higher than what is typical in employer-sponsored health plans.

For policies offered in the federal exchange, as in many states, the annual deductible often tops $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a couple.

Insurers devised the new policies on the assumption that consumers would pick a plan based mainly on price, as reflected in the premium. But insurance plans with lower premiums generally have higher deductibles.

In El Paso, Tex., for example, for a husband and wife both age 35, one of the cheapest plans on the federal exchange, offered by Blue Cross and Blue Shield, has a premium less than $300 a month, but the annual deductible is more than $12,000. For a 45-year-old couple seeking insurance on the federal exchange in Saginaw, Mich., a policy with a premium of $515 a month has a deductible of $10,000.

In Santa Cruz, Calif., where the exchange is run by the state, Robert Aaron, a self-employed 56-year-old engineer, said he was looking for a low-cost plan. The best one he could find had a premium of $488 a month. But the annual deductible was $5,000, and that, he said, sounds really high.

By contrast, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, the average deductible in employer-sponsored health plans is $1,135.

Deductibles for many plans in the insurance exchanges are pretty high, said Stan Dorn, a health policy expert at the Urban Institute. These plans are more generous than whats prevalent in the current individual insurance market, but significantly less generous than most employer-sponsored insurance.

Caroline F. Pearson, a vice president of Avalere Health, a consulting company that has analyzed hundreds of plans, said: The premiums are lower than expected, but consumers on the exchange will often face high deductibles and high co-payments for medical services and prescription drugs before they reach the cap on out-of-pocket costs, $6,350 for an individual and $12,700 for a family.

Those limits provide significant protection, even though those sums are substantial for most consumers. In addition, the federal website, HealthCare.gov, informs people that they may qualify for subsidies to reduce their out-of-pocket costs if their household income is below 250 percent of the federal poverty level, meaning that it is less than $28,725 for an individual or $48,825 for a family of three.

These cost-sharing reductions are available for a specific kind of midlevel plan known as a silver plan. People with lower incomes can get more help with out-of-pocket costs, but only if they choose silver plans.

Plans in the marketplace are separated into four categories  bronze, silver, gold and platinum  indicating the generosity of coverage, or the share of costs paid by insurance for an average enrollee.

Many people buying insurance on the federal and state exchanges are expected to qualify for subsidies. But in the first month, for reasons that are not clear, only 30 percent qualified. The others must pay the full premium and will be subject to the full deductible.

A study by Jon R. Gabel and colleagues at NORC, a research organization affiliated with the University of Chicago, found that 65 percent of employees in group health plans had higher-value coverage that would be classified as gold or platinum under the Affordable Care Act.

At the same time, most policies in the exchanges are more generous than what people have been buying for themselves in the individual insurance market. Mr. Gabel found that 84 percent of policyholders in the individual market had coverage that was less than or equivalent to the bronze level.

James T. OConnor, an actuary at Milliman, an employee benefit consulting firm, said: Larger employers generally have more generous coverage than small employers, and small group plans, on average, are richer than what people can typically buy with their own money in the new health insurance exchanges.

Mark A. York, a 60-year-old freelance writer in Hailey, Idaho, said he began shopping after he received a letter saying that his current insurance policy would be canceled because it did not meet the requirements of the health care law. In the exchange, he said, he found policies with premiums similar to what he is now paying, $440 a month, but the deductibles were so high  $4,000 to $6,000 a year  that it defeats the purpose of having insurance.

Brian H. Snoddy, 35, of Palmyra, Va., said his wife and two children had a policy with a $330 premium and a $2,500 deductible, but it is being canceled. For new plans with comparable coverage on the federal exchange, he said, the deductibles are way higher, $5,000 or $6,000.

For visits to a medical specialist, many plans on the federal exchange require co-payments of $50 to $75 or more.

 Nearly six in 10 uninsured Americans can pay less than $100 a month for coverage in the health insurance marketplace, Kathleen Sebelius, the secretary of health and human services, has said.

Kellye Norris, 53, of Dallas said that after trying for more than a month, she completed an application on the federal exchange and enrolled in a Cigna plan with a premium of about $500 a month and no subsidies.

My deductible is nearly $3,000, which is ridiculously high, in my opinion, Ms. Norris said. But as someone with pre-existing conditions, Im grateful to be able to buy insurance at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I copied the majority of the story because I don't know if the NYT is one of the papers that only let you view so many free articles a month.


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 9, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> > The good news, if you want to call it that, is that roughly 1.6 million Americans have enrolled in ObamaCare so far.
> >
> > The not-so-good news is that 1.46 million of them actually signed up for Medicaid. If that trend continues, it could bankrupt both federal and state governments.
> 
> ...



*^^^What I've been saying all along^^^*


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 9, 2013)

*Md. the 3rd state to see exchange director go*

Fourteen states and the District of Columbia told the federal government they could run their own health insurance exchanges, but three people leading their states exchanges have now left following problem-plagued rollouts of the online marketplaces.

The executive director of Marylands exchange, Rebecca Pearce, was the latest to go, resigning late Friday. The head of Hawaiis health insurance marketplace announced her resignation in November after delays in getting the exchange running and low signups in the first month. And the head of Oregons health exchange took a medical leave earlier in December as state officials were reviewing his job performance. The states online enrollment system wasnt ready to launch on schedule and has had technical problems.


Md. the 3rd state to see exchange director go - The Washington Post


----------



## william the wie (Dec 9, 2013)

Obama won't pull the plug on this turkey. With ERs shutting down and medicaid the safest entitlement to cut on the state and federal level especially for Rs the outcome is bleak.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 9, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > They can not run, they can not hide, they can not lie.  obamacare's true, ugly side is showing.  _They don't care_.
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHIfKnDjLxQ]ObamaCare Architect Zeke Emanuel: If You Like Your Doctor, You Can Pay More - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 10, 2013)

*Friendly reminder from CNN: Senate Democrats killed a 2010 GOP proposal to let more people keep their plans*
November 1st

~Someone else posted this somewhere but darn if I can keep up!


In September 2010, Senate Republicans brought a resolution to the floor to block implementation of the grandfather rule, warning that it would result in canceled policies and violate President Barack Obamas promise that people could keep their insurance if they liked it.

The District of Columbia is an island surrounded by reality. Only in the District of Columbia could you get away with telling the people if you like what you have you can keep it, and then pass regulations six months later that do just the opposite and figure that people are going to ignore it. But common sense is eventually going to prevail in this town and common sense is going to have to prevail on this piece of legislation as well, Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley said at the time.

The administrations own regulations prove this is not the case. Under the grandfathering regulation, according to the White Houses own economic impact analysis, as many as 69 percent of businesses will lose their grandfathered status by 2013 and be forced to buy government-approved plans, the Iowa Republican said.

On a party line vote, Democrats killed the resolution, which could come back to haunt vulnerable Democrats up for re-election this year.

Friendly reminder from CNN: Senate Democrats killed a 2010 GOP proposal to let more people keep their plans « Hot Air

Original article:
Senate Democrats supported rule that led to insurance cancellations ? CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 10, 2013)

*College cuts student hours to avoid being bankrupted by Obamacare*


College cuts student hours to avoid being bankrupted by Obamacare | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 10, 2013)

*Harry Reid Receives Obamacare Verdict: Gets $4,500 Increase in Cost*

Poor Harry...


Harry Reid: Obamacare 'Costs Me About $4,500 More'


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 10, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> *Harry Reid Receives Obamacare Verdict: Gets $4,500 Increase in Cost*
> 
> Poor Harry...
> 
> ...



I thought the cost curve was suppose to bend down? 

Another day, another lie.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 10, 2013)

i'm sorry, but this alone should stop obamacare in its tracks.  how can you have a mandated paln out there that is the only option for millions of people and that plan excludes coverage for critical services? the best hospitals and special care facilities are excluded from having to accept obamacare.  WTF?  and the left claims democrats are all about the poor and impoverished? well it looks like the top faciliites are now reserved for the rich folks

Top Tier Hospitals Excluded from Obamacare


----------



## Amelia (Dec 10, 2013)

No, You Can't Keep Your Drugs Either Under Obamacare - Forbes


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 10, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> i'm sorry, but this alone should stop obamacare in its tracks.  how can you have a mandated paln out there that is the only option for millions of people and that plan excludes coverage for critical services? the best hospitals and special care facilities are excluded from having to accept obamacare.  WTF?  and the left claims democrats are all about the poor and impoverished? well it looks like the top faciliites are now reserved for the rich folks
> 
> Top Tier Hospitals Excluded from Obamacare


Just more of the plan... a year or two will go by and they will blame the republicans for refusing to let the poor use hospitals of the rich and famous. They will claim the answer is universal health care, one plan for all funded by the evil rich.  If you don't agree it's because you want to let grandma die.  They will bring out lines of people hurt by mean republicans who would not give them heath care on the exchange.  Person after person who had a loved one die because of republicans that put money above health care for the poor.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 10, 2013)

House Republican warns Obamacare mandates could close volunteer fire departments | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 10, 2013)

Amelia said:


> House Republican warns Obamacare mandates could close volunteer fire departments | WashingtonExaminer.com



Why should we have volunteer fire departments? They should all be paid government employees.  You should not be allowed to provide charity or volunteer for your community.  Think of the unions!!


----------



## Amelia (Dec 10, 2013)

Democrats keep hoping (and spinning) that the initial failure of the Obamacare rollout will be forgotten like the initial hiccups of the Medicare D rollout were.

The more apt comparison should be to the 1989 Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act.  Medicare D was optional and didn't cause pain in the pocketbooks of voters.    The 1989 was viewed as being a redistribution of wealth for a nonexistent benefit.  That might not have been strictly accurate perception -- people didn't recognize the benefit there would have been for them.  

But it still remains the better comparison -- redistribution of wealth (in opposition to promises) for questionable benefits to most of the people who are paying -- i.e., people who are more likely to be dedicated voters.

And the 1989 law is no more.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 10, 2013)

Flashback 2010:



> ....
> 
> But on signing day 2010, it was all cheering. As the audience applauded, Obama promised the new law would "lower costs for families and for businesses." He cited the case of Natoma Canfield, an Ohio woman whose story he often told during the health care fight. Canfield, divorced and 50 years old, had had cancer but was still able to find what she called "costly, but affordable" coverage on the individual market. Then her insurance company abruptly raised her premium.
> 
> ...



Ah, the good old days when 40% increases in premiums were something Obama disapproved of.

Euphoria of Obamacare becomes nightmare of higher premiums and deductibles | WashingtonExaminer.com




> ....
> 
> After the ceremony, Obama went to the headquarters of the Interior Department, where he held what amounted to a duplicate ceremony for an overflow crowd. During that event, he re-stated the promises that seem so troubling now that Obamacare has actually arrived. "I said this once or twice, but it bears repeating: If you like your current insurance, you will keep your current insurance," Obama said. "Nobody is changing what you've got if you're happy with it. If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor."
> 
> If anybody had any doubts, Obama pledged, the future would prove his words to be true. "Now that this legislation is passed, you don't have to take my word for it," he told the crowd. "You'll be able to see it in your own lives."


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 10, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > House Republican warns Obamacare mandates could close volunteer fire departments | WashingtonExaminer.com
> ...



The "Volunteer" Fire Departments in Nassau County always have appeals.
I found out about 10 years ago that these "Volunteers" were paid by the County.
Every organization is FOS in one way or another.


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 11, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> The "Volunteer" Fire Departments in Nassau County always have appeals.
> I found out about 10 years ago that these "Volunteers" were paid by the County.
> Every organization is FOS in one way or another.



A stipend for each fire that volunteers show up to is not "pay". 

Which Nassau County are you referring to?

This issue also paves the way for any volunteer org with > than 50 volunteers to 
1) shut their doors including volunteers for libraries, schools including (PTC/PTA),
soup kitchens/homeless shelters, church volunteers, unpaid interns...and so many more that I won't bother to name.

Youth soccer
Fundraising
Food banks


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 11, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > House Republican warns Obamacare mandates could close volunteer fire departments | WashingtonExaminer.com
> ...



 You snark!

Geeze...I remember a time when  ambulance services where all volunteer.
Did they receive training? You betcha!!
My Father had to pull the Chief of Police's son from a lake. Regardless that the teen was cold and blue, CPR and mouth to mouth resuscitation was performed.

Charity begins with passion and a heart, no matter what form it takes.

Oh eM Gee
Hospital volunteers!


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 11, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > *Harry Reid Receives Obamacare Verdict: Gets $4,500 Increase in Cost*
> ...



Now that topic would make for a great thread!!


----------



## jon_berzerk (Dec 11, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...



isnt it nice that harry got a special little cutout in the obamacare law

while the little people do not get one 

no wonder obama shakes the hand of the likes of castro


----------



## Amelia (Dec 11, 2013)

Eight Obamacare exchanges could reveal user names, passwords | The Daily Caller




> Minnesota and seven other state Obama exchanges are vulnerable to a certain cyberattack that can reveal customers usernames and passwords, according to a local ABC News affiliate report.
> 
> Minnesota Obamacare exchange MNsure failed in a simulated WiFi attack by tech firm  Computer Forensic Services, along with seven out of 12 other exchanges tested.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 12, 2013)

So the latest count almost $5,000,000 canceled, under 350,000 signed up.   and the ones signing up are the sickest and most costly.  the young and healthy are not signing up.  the ones they need to make this work

The Latest Obamacare Figures Are In. Is It Time to Panic Yet?


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 12, 2013)

when the horror stories outweigh the wins, its really time to rethink your plan

The Many Disrupted Lives Under Obamacare - Yahoo Finance


----------



## oreo (Dec 12, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> So the latest count almost $5,000,000 canceled, under 350,000 signed up.   and the ones signing up are the sickest and most costly.  the young and healthy are not signing up.  the ones they need to make this work
> 
> The Latest Obamacare Figures Are In. Is It Time to Panic Yet?




The 5.5 million cancelled policies you're talking about does not reflect how many lost their insurance.  If you add in spouses and children that were covered under these now cancelled plans we may have another 12 million uninsured in this country due to the Obamacare mandates.

Obviously they're not signing up.  350,000 holy bee-gees that is absolutely horrible numbers.  *That's why they're in a PANIC.*


----------



## Amelia (Dec 12, 2013)

And CBS evening news announced the 350,000 figure like it was good news and moved along without any analysis.

*hack*


----------



## percysunshine (Dec 12, 2013)

I have completely changed my mind on Obamacare. It is not going to implode. It will turn into another post office run by insurance companies at a loss, and will be subsidized by government borrowing to the consternation of the surrender monkey Republican political class.

Embrace the suck.


----------



## Care4all (Dec 13, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> when the horror stories outweigh the wins, its really time to rethink your plan
> 
> The Many Disrupted Lives Under Obamacare - Yahoo Finance


I just wish people would stop lying....this "Crying wolf" coming primarily from the right, with repeated sad stories that end up not being true is making it hard to discern the depth of the problems with the ACA.

As Example, in your article Spoon,  the first sob story claim was that the ACA no longer allowed group insurance for 2 people who owned a business....



> Deb McEneaney of Sag Harbor, N.Y.,  was jolted in November when her insurance company notified her that it  was canceling a group health plan that had been tailor made for her and  her husband and their family-run business.
> Her insurance broker assured her  she had nothing to worry about when the administration began the formal  rollout of Obamacare on Oct.1. But the insurance company, United  Healthcare Oxford, subsequently wrote her saying that it would no longer  allow group health plans for two people who were related because of new  restrictions under the Affordable Care Act.


Now this woman may not be lying and her Insurance company may have told her this lie and she believed it, but with a quick search on the net here is what I found about group insurance plans and the ACA....



> *Is Your Business Eligible for Group Coverage?*
> 
> Under federal law, small employers are guaranteed group coverage  should they choose to purchase it, regardless of the employees health  status. A small employer is defined as a business with 2 to 50  full-time employees. *Owners are generally counted as employees, so sole  proprietorships with one employee usually fall into this category, as do  partnerships without any employees (by definition partnerships have two  or more partners). Some states define the self-employed as groups of  one and require insurers to guarantee issue them coverage in the small  group market.*


Group Coverage Basics | Affordable Care Act Health Coverage Guide

Soooooo, something just ain't right with this sob story and many others as well....

YET there ARE some true sob stories out there and major problems and donut holes etc etc etc with the ACA....  it's just hard to keep track on what is a REAL problem vs a manufactured problem or just an outright fabrication....this is what happens when the "boy cries wolf", when the real problem shows up, no one believes him.....

It might be the right thing to do Politically for one particular party or another....stirring up all of these fake problems and sob stories.....but it does a disservice to the rest of America, and distorts the ACTUAL FLAWS and mistakes with the ACA, so we won't be able to LEARN from those mistakes, if we don't even know what the mistakes truly are with all of the fabrication stories floating around...just my 2 cents...


----------



## dblack (Dec 13, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> I have completely changed my mind on Obamacare. It is not going to implode. It will turn into another post office run by insurance companies at a loss, and will be subsidized by government borrowing to the consternation of the surrender monkey Republican political class.
> 
> Embrace the suck.



True that. I've been saying that since the beginning. The goal of ACA was to create a public utility company for health insurance. Still run for very private profits, of course.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 13, 2013)

Care4all said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > when the horror stories outweigh the wins, its really time to rethink your plan
> ...



the whole this is a disaster, get it through your head,Obamacare id nothing but a bunch of payoffs and crony deals, do you understand that? People are loosing coverage they liked because the government says it isn't good enough. Most people are going to be paying more not less. all you Obama lovers care about is protecting Obama. the government couldn't even do a simple thing like build a friken web-site and you want to blind trust them with your life?...please get a clue


----------



## Amelia (Dec 13, 2013)

Lie of the Year: 'If you like your health care plan, you can keep it'


If PolitiFact had chosen anything else their site would have been firebombed.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 13, 2013)

Charles Krauthammer: Obama the oblivious - The Washington Post

Obamacare's Never-Ending Fix-a-Thon - Bloomberg


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 13, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Lie of the Year: 'If you like your health care plan, you can keep it'
> 
> 
> If PolitiFact had chosen anything else their site would have been firebombed.



Will go down in history right next to ... Read my lips.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 13, 2013)

Obamacare's Rocky Rollout Improves Republicans' 2014 Outlook | RealClearPolitics


----------



## koshergrl (Dec 13, 2013)

The Obamacare Sign-Up Scam - Reason.com

"
But people arent actually enrolled in plans until they have both received and paid their first months bill. That may prove difficult, given that the system has had serious trouble sending enrollment data to insurers, sometimes sending bad data, and sometimes sending no data at all. According to the administrations own figures, about 25 percent of early enrollments in the federal exchange were subject to errors. A report in _The Washington Post_ said the problem affected a third of early sign ups. Earlier this month, the administration said the errors are now in the range of 10 percent, which, given the increasing pace of enrollment, still means that tens of thousands of applications are likely to be flawed or missing. State exchanges are also reportedly having trouble sending correct applicant information to insurers, although its not clear how widespread the problem is.
Even if there are no data transmission bugs, however, an enrollment still isnt complete until the first months premium has been paid. This is not a minor concern. As Jon Kingsdale, who ran the Massachusetts health exchange and served as a consultant on Obamacare, wrote in _The Washington Post_ last month, the most difficult administrative task for the Bay States exchange was tracking and collecting premiums."

"
So heres where were at: 364,682 people had signed up for private plans by November 30, which is about 842,000 short of the administrations end-of-November projection. Information about tens of thousands of those 364,682 sign-ups has either been transmitted inaccurately or not at all to insurers. And so far only a small fraction of the sign-ups which have been correctly transferred to insurers have actually completed the process and paid. (The administration also says that another 803,077 people have enrolled in Medicaid.)
All of which means that we dont know how many people have actually enrolled yet. But the true number is virtually certain to be significantly lower than the administrations sign-up data suggests, and woefully short of the administrations stated goal. Is there any real chance that the exchanges enroll 7 million people in private coverage by the end of March? Probably not."

"
Indeed, the net result of the health law so far may be that more people have lost coverage than gained it. As a _Wall Street Journal_ editorial notes, A charitable reading suggests that ObamaCare's net enrollment stands at about negative four million. Even assuming that all 364,000 private insurance enrollments actually take, and then adding in another 803,000 Medicaid enrollments, thats still not nearly enough to offset the estimated four to 5.5 million private plan cancellations so far under the law. The administration is clearly desperate to find some way to define Obamacare as a success. But the numbers just dont add up. Whatever success looks like, this isn't it. "


----------



## Jackson (Dec 13, 2013)

Jroc said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



There's no two ways about it...he's a SOB!


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 13, 2013)

Amelia said:


> *hack*



Is that a fur ball you're hacking up?


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 13, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> The Obamacare Sign-Up Scam - Reason.com
> 
> "
> But people arent actually enrolled in plans until they have both received and paid their first months bill. That may prove difficult, given that the system has had serious trouble sending enrollment data to insurers, sometimes sending bad data, and sometimes sending no data at all. According to the administrations own figures, about 25 percent of early enrollments in the federal exchange were subject to errors. A report in _The Washington Post_ said the problem affected a third of early sign ups. Earlier this month, the administration said the errors are now in the range of 10 percent, which, given the increasing pace of enrollment, still means that tens of thousands of applications are likely to be flawed or missing. State exchanges are also reportedly having trouble sending correct applicant information to insurers, although its not clear how widespread the problem is.
> ...



But the plan was never to improve things, it was to screw us.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 13, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > The Obamacare Sign-Up Scam - Reason.com
> ...


Sir, the projected goal is to cut 8-12% of GDP growth 2015-6 in the form of medical costs saved.  That suggests to me that if these idiots had set out to screw us we would be in clover which we are not. Think about it.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 13, 2013)

Now Democrats are making fun of Republicans for switching from wanting a high deductible option to criticizing high deductible policies.

Coz there's no difference between the low premium catastrophic policies Republicans want to allow and the high premium high deductible policies Obama gave us.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 13, 2013)

Obamacare: One punt after another - David Nather and Joanne Kenen - POLITICO.com

 Another day, another delay.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 13, 2013)

Pressing the Panic Button? | National Review Online



> As usual, its hard to tell just whats going on inside the administration regarding Obamacare, but I dont think we can really take the steps announced by HHS yesterday as anything but a bright, red, flashing warning light about the internal expectations regarding January.
> 
> Some of what they announced is frankly bizarre and slightly crazy. Beside extending the high-risk pool program (which isnt nuts, just a strong indication that theyre not ready for January at this very late stage), they are asking insurers to pay claims for consumers who havent paid their premiums, to treat out-of-network doctors and hospitals as though they were in-network, and to pay for prescription drugs not actually covered by the plans they offer.
> 
> ...


----------



## william the wie (Dec 14, 2013)

Amelia the big slide is scheduled for a year from now. The stated goal of cost control, reducing GDP by 4-12%, starts then.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 15, 2013)

Each Obamacare Enrollee Costs Taxpayers $14,000 | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 15, 2013)

william the wie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



They lied to you.  They lied because their intention was to screw us.  Further, it was widely known that they were lying. They knew they had to lie because no one would have voted for being screwed.  Instead of calling it the Screw American's Health Care Bill they dubbed it the Affordable Health Care Bill, then proceeded to create a global warming type hockey stick graph to roll out through the media to fool the dumb asses who believe every lie uttered by government.  

As honestly stated by Obama, the goal is to force us into single payer by raping citizens of our existing system.  This is not even a new strategy, this strategy is clearly drawn up in Rule for Radicals. The book written by Obama & Hillary's mentor.  The book teaches them how to burn existing systems to ground, they are following the steps in the book to the letter.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 15, 2013)

Obamacare: Lies All the Way Down | RealClearPolitics


----------



## Amelia (Dec 15, 2013)

A couple of people have posted this in other threads.  

With Affordable Care Act, Canceled Policies for New York Professionals



> Many in New Yorks professional and cultural elite have long supported President Obamas health care plan. But now, to their surprise, thousands of writers, opera singers, music teachers, photographers, doctors, lawyers and others are learning that their health insurance plans are being canceled and they may have to pay more to get comparable coverage, if they can find it.
> 
> They are part of an unusual, informal health insurance system that has developed in New York, in which independent practitioners were able to get lower insurance rates through group plans, typically set up by their professional associations or chambers of commerce. That allowed them to avoid the sky-high rates in New Yorks individual insurance market, historically among the most expensive in the country.
> 
> ...






> .... many of the New York policies being canceled meet and often exceed the standards, brokers say. The rationale for disqualifying those policies, said Larry Levitt, a health policy expert at the Kaiser Family Foundation, was to prevent associations from selling insurance to healthy members who are needed to keep the new health exchanges financially viable.
> 
> ....





> ....
> 
> Among those affected are members of the Authors Guild; the Advertising Photographers of America; the Suzuki Association of the Americas, a music teachers organization; the Society of Childrens Book Writers and Illustrators; the New York City Bar Association; and the New York County Medical Society. (One group, the Freelancers Union, negotiated a one-year exemption with the state.)
> 
> ....


----------



## Vox (Dec 15, 2013)

Amelia, did you encounter any information on the web about the lists of out of the network providers for specific plans - by states?

generally we all have read that the networks are VERY narrow - some exclude the major hospitals exactly in order to contain costs.
I have read that in Georgia basically only ONE hospital will be available for the obamacare plans, but can not find the link now.

news about very limited lists of providers were about states of California, Oregon, Washington, New Hampshire and Georgia.

any other news on this subject?


----------



## Amelia (Dec 15, 2013)

Nothing coming to mind right now.  I'll keep an eye out.



edit: I think we've posted about restrictions in New York ....


----------



## Vox (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks


----------



## william the wie (Dec 15, 2013)

Vox said:


> Amelia, did you encounter any information on the web about the lists of out of the network providers for specific plans - by states?
> 
> generally we all have read that the networks are VERY narrow - some exclude the major hospitals exactly in order to contain costs.
> I have read that in Georgia basically only ONE hospital will be available for the obamacare plans, but can not find the link now.
> ...


 The advertised networks are much narrower than advertised according to the state versions of the AHA and AMA. We won'y have really hard data until July 1 when all the first qtr reports are in. Waiting line death reports should start hitting the news 1/2/14 along with exits from network by caregivers and hospitals.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 15, 2013)

75 % unfavorable.  Yikes!  the more we learn, the less we like

AP-GfK poll: Health law seen as eroding coverage - Yahoo Finance


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 16, 2013)




----------



## Jroc (Dec 16, 2013)

> *ObamaCare's Troubles Are Only Beginning*
> 
> The "sticker shock" that many buyers of new, ACA-compliant health plans have experienced&#8212;with premiums 30% higher, or more, than their previous coverage&#8212;has only begun. The costs borne by individuals will be even more obvious next year as more people start having to pay higher deductibles and copays.
> 
> ...



Boskin: ObamaCare's Troubles Are Only Beginning - WSJ.com


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 16, 2013)

*Women are often the primary decision-makers on finances and health care for their families,* a White House official explained. *Moms have a huge influence on their kids and husbands* and are a key demographic for the ongoing effort to make sure women and their families know the benefits they can access through the health law.

The Obamas, who rarely co-host events in the Oval Office, aim to enlist moms in the campaign to convince their adult children, family members and peers to sign up for health insurance under the president's signature law.


1) Yes they are

2) Yes they do


Obamas to host moms in Oval Office ?Obamacare? push


----------



## Amelia (Dec 16, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> *Women are often the primary decision-makers on finances and health care for their families,* a White House official explained. *Moms have a huge influence on their kids and husbands* and are a key demographic for the ongoing effort to make sure women and their families know the benefits they can access through the health law.
> 
> The Obamas, who rarely co-host events in the Oval Office, aim to enlist moms in the campaign to convince their adult children, family members and peers to sign up for health insurance under the president's signature law.
> 
> ...







> A Kaiser Family Foundation poll in November found that 49 percent of women have an unfavorable view of Obamacare, compared to 33 percent with a favorable view.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 17, 2013)

President Obama's Remarkable And Damaging Confession About Government - Forbes


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 17, 2013)

does anyone get the feeling this program has a permanent black cloud hovering over it? 

The Obamacare Delays Just Keep on Coming - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Jroc (Dec 17, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> does anyone get the feeling this program has a permanent black cloud hovering over it?
> 
> The Obamacare Delays Just Keep on Coming - Yahoo Finance



they're are trying to delay the bulk of the pain...Obama still has hopes of regaining control of the house and holding the senate. He'll have unlimited power then has he did when they forced this crap down our throat to begin with


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 17, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > does anyone get the feeling this program has a permanent black cloud hovering over it?
> ...



no doubt about that.  he even delayed its launch until he was reelcted.  he knew it would fail. he knew its launch would have cost him the election.


----------



## Rat in the Hat (Dec 17, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> does anyone get the feeling this program has a permanent black cloud hovering over it?
> 
> The Obamacare Delays Just Keep on Coming - Yahoo Finance



They keep hoping for that magic "Bullwinkle" moment...





*This time for sure!!!*​


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 18, 2013)

Rat in the Hat said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > does anyone get the feeling this program has a permanent black cloud hovering over it?
> ...




Rocky's face sums up how the moron pols must feel right about now.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 18, 2013)

So if the whitehouse has insured us illegals will not be able to sign up for the plan, why is this even being used as an excuse for low enrollment? 

Obamacare enrollment by Latinos hurt by immigration law concerns | Yahoo Health


----------



## william the wie (Dec 18, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> So if the whitehouse has insured us illegals will not be able to sign up for the plan, why is this even being used as an excuse for low enrollment?
> 
> Obamacare enrollment by Latinos hurt by immigration law concerns | Yahoo Health


You think maybe immigrants consider the president untrustworthy?


----------



## Amelia (Dec 18, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> So if the whitehouse has insured us illegals will not be able to sign up for the plan, why is this even being used as an excuse for low enrollment?
> 
> Obamacare enrollment by Latinos hurt by immigration law concerns | Yahoo Health




Well, I can see it.  I don't have a lot of empathy for the lawbreakers, but I can understand their concern.  You're a parent -- you want  to get insurance for your kids -- but to do so you have to input all your personal information including your illegal status and your illegally earned wages?  

You're not getting insurance for yourself but your fear of deportation is standing in the way of you getting insurance for your citizen children.  

Or you're a spouse of an illegal alien.  You want to get insurance for yourself but you'll have to input not only your information but also that of your spouse.  Whatever led you to marry someone who is here illegally, you may not be ready to come out of the shadows and say, "Here's all our personal information -- I just want insurance for myself and the kids -- you promise you won't use it against my lawbreaking husband?


----------



## Amelia (Dec 18, 2013)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > So if the whitehouse has insured us illegals will not be able to sign up for the plan, why is this even being used as an excuse for low enrollment?
> ...




Well, they should.

He made a special and specific promise to the Latino community -- that he was aware of how people make promises to them and take them for granted as reliable votes and then break the promises and he wouldn't be that guy.  There would definitely be comprehensive immigration drafted in his first year in office and he would put his weight behind getting it passed.  

And instead of keeping that solemn, time-sensitive promise he forced Obamacare on the shellshocked nation.  

They _should_ consider him untrustworthy.  Everyone _should_ consider him untrustworthy.


----------



## Listening (Dec 18, 2013)

Reports: Obamacare Sticker Shock to Slam Families, Small Businesses - Guy Benson

The Associated Press' latest poll shows nearly half of all insured Americans reporting that Obamacare has already impacted their 2014 coverage. Within this group, nearly seven in ten point to rising premiums, and nearly eight in ten place blame squarely on the new law.

With an example:

Sue Walker received the bad news in September from the insurer who handled her medical coverage in Jacksonville, Ill. She was told that to meet the requirements of the Affordable Care Act, her premium would go from $513 a month to $890. She also would be required to purchase insurance that included maternity benefits, even though Walker is 64 years old. Walker wonders how Congress could have approved such a boondoggle...The horror stories come from people such as Carla Watkins of Pikeville, Ky., and John Keegan of Hazleton, Pa. Watkins, a 45-year-old nursing assistant, called her three hours on the website a nightmare. I was ready to scream by the time I was done, she said. Its really going to put me in a financial bind now that I will be paying $92 more a month. It took Keegan 10 days to finally gain access to the website. I tried three to six times a day, at all different times, he said. And what he finally found? If I bought a plan, it would be approximately the premium Im paying now. I would have much higher deductibles and co-pays, Keegan said.

What a great plan.

I wonder if Obama can even enter the realm where he made a mistake ?


----------



## william the wie (Dec 18, 2013)

Obama will lose D seats not just to the the Rs but the Greens and socialists too.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 18, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > So if the whitehouse has insured us illegals will not be able to sign up for the plan, why is this even being used as an excuse for low enrollment?
> ...



that is all very true, but counting illegals was never part of the calculations in determining the feasiblity of the plan. they were excluded. or at least that is what they told us.  but now they are claiming illegals being afraid to sign up is part of the reason the numbers are so low.  their statements are contradicting


----------



## Amelia (Dec 18, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYyMMs-WO4U]If you like your senator, you can keep her; if you don't, you know what to do.[/ame]


----------



## Vox (Dec 18, 2013)

if one wants to cover the illegals - that is pretty simple - change the EMTALA as to cover only some critically delineated help and pay for that by 1% federal sales tax  - with a provision that that money can not go to ANYTHING except medical care.

That can cover ALL uninsured, marginally insured and poor people in need of BASIC medical care.

anything advanced  should be paid by insurance.

so if you have heart attack - you will get help, which is immediate. any advanced care ( including CABG, pacemakers, stenting) should be covered by insurance - which should have different levels and as any product available for purchase in this country should be available to everybody


----------



## Vox (Dec 18, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > So if the whitehouse has insured us illegals will not be able to sign up for the plan, why is this even being used as an excuse for low enrollment?
> ...



I fail to see why buying health insurance should be limited to legal residents only.
If you can buy a business, a car, a home, a boat in this country no matter what your immigration status - you should be able to buy insurance.

Very basic medical care can be covered by federal sales tax - a universal basic level.

everything else can be purchased - with specific plans tailored to specific groups - 20something healthy people will need catastrophic insurance with maternity coverage, immunizations and mental health. 60+ will need a regular insurance with a stress on cardiovascular and oncological help, but they certainly do not need childhood immunizations or maternity care.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 18, 2013)

Vox said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...




Illegal aliens can get insurance.  The question is about participation in plans connected with the government.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 18, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKLX7qPU7W0]KBMT-TX: Texas Woman's ObamaCare Application Lost For Third Time By Federal Exchange - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 19, 2013)

well when you are only looking to spread the wealth instead of actually fixing the problem, this stuff is bound to happen

The Obamacare ?Shotgun Wedding??Marry or Lose Your Home - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 19, 2013)

obamacare is bad for your health  lol 

Four state Obamacare chiefs bolt post-launch


----------



## Amelia (Dec 19, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> well when you are only looking to spread the wealth instead of actually fixing the problem, this stuff is bound to happen
> 
> The Obamacare ?Shotgun Wedding??Marry or Lose Your Home - Yahoo Finance




What a nightmare


----------



## Amelia (Dec 20, 2013)

Obamacare Initiates Self-Destruction Sequence - Bloomberg



> ....
> 
> However incoherent these fixes may seem, they send two messages, loud and clear. The first is that although liberal pundits may think that the law is a done deal, impossible to repeal, the administration does not believe that. The willingness to take large risks with the programs stability indicates that the administration thinks it has a huge amount to lose -- that the White House is in a battle for the programs very existence, not a few marginal House and Senate seats.
> 
> And the second is that enrollment probably isnt what the administration was hoping. I dont know that well start Jan. 1 with fewer people insured than we had a year ago, but this certainly shouldnt make us optimistic. Its not like people who lost their insurance due to Obamacare, and now cant afford to replace their policy, are going to be happy that theyre exempted from the mandate; theyre still going to be pretty mad. This is at best, damage control. Which suggests that the administration is expecting a fair amount of damage.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 20, 2013)

OK, if insurance companies lose money they will stop taking new exchange policies and ACA dies right then, right there. But does Obama understand that?


----------



## Jroc (Dec 20, 2013)

Obama now decrees it's ok to have catastrophic coverage 




> *White House offers option for those who lost health coverage*
> 
> CNN) - The Obama administration will allow Americans who had their health insurance policies canceled due to the introduction of the Affordable Care Act an option to get new coverage or an exemption from the mandate that they buy insurance.
> 
> ...


White House offers option for those who lost health coverage ? CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2013)

Funny how the democrats refused to budge on this to keep the government from shutting down but now they are willing to do it to save their failed plan.  The tea party was right.

Is Obamacare individual mandate cracking?


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 20, 2013)

Long read...here are the highlights:



Teresa Fryer, the chief information security officer for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), revealed the findings when she was interviewed *Tuesday behind closed doors by House Oversight Committee officials*. The security risks were not previously disclosed to members of Congress or the public. Obama administration officials have firmly insisted theres no reason for any concern regarding the websites security.


In another security bombshell, Fryer told congressional interviewers that she explicitly recommended denial of the websites Authority to Operate (ATO), but was overruled by her superiors. 

This is the first time a government insider has gone on record challenging the administration's insistence that there were no worrisome security concerns.

"I can tell you that no senior official reporting to me ever advised me that we should delay," Sebelius answered. "We have testing that did not advise a delay. So not -- not to my knowledge.


Fryer says she briefed Sebelius' top information officers at HHS in a teleconference on Sept. 20, recommending the website's launch be delayed for security reasons. Fryer testified that the call included HealthCare.gov's chief project manager Henry Chao, HHS chief information security officer Kevin Charest and HHS Deputy Assistant Secretary for Information Technology Officer Frank Baitman. Fryer says she learned three days later that her advice was not going to be followed.


High security risk found after HealthCare.gov launch - CBS News


----------



## william the wie (Dec 20, 2013)

There may not be any business exchanges at this rate.


----------



## percysunshine (Dec 20, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Long read...here are the highlights:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oops.....

It was the NSA's fault. They can fix the problem...in secret.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 21, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kdbEKPokM0]W.H. Won't Answer If Anyone Will Be Subjected To ObamaCare's Individual Mandate In 2014 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Dec 21, 2013)

New Health Law Frustrates Many in Middle Class



> Ginger Chapman and her husband, Doug, are sitting on the health care cliff.
> 
> The cheapest insurance plan they can find through the new federal marketplace in New Hampshire will cost their family of four about $1,000 a month, 12 percent of their annual income of around $100,000 and more than they have ever paid before.
> 
> ...




I copied more than I usually would since some can't access the NYT.  However there is still much more at the link.


----------



## namvet (Dec 21, 2013)

he screwed the pooch

"I'm in charge, we screwed it up," he said.

link

as if there was ever any dobt


----------



## Amelia (Dec 21, 2013)

Latest Exemption Shows OCare Unraveling « Commentary Magazine



> ....
> 
> The list of ObamaCare delays is impressive. As the _Times_ noted in the conclusion of their article about the latest one:
> 
> ...


----------



## Listening (Dec 21, 2013)

Minnesota Mulls Obamacare Deadline Postponement: "Zero Policy Cards Have Been Issued" - Cortney O'Brien

Minnesota Mulls Obamacare Deadline Postponement: "Zero Policy Cards Have Been Issued"

A state having issues.  You'd think the morons at the federal level would have done some beta testing first.  Well, I guess we should thank them because they are sowing the seeds of it's undoing.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 21, 2013)

One thing I noticed on a far more leftist board I also belong to is that the Ocare advocates were buying their insurance off exchange and seemed unusually well informed about concierge care for the masses and they are the people who taught me how big a deal it is going to be. They also encouraged my current investment strategy. When possible take note of what leftists do as opposed to what they say and it is easier for you to figure out the best course.

*WARNING WILL ROBINSON* leftists are good at figuring out what not to do but not too good at figuring out what to do so be careful about which non-exchange policy you choose.


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 21, 2013)

Cover Oregon: If you haven?t heard from us by Monday? you should probably look for alternate coverage « Hot Air


Its yet another sign that the health insurance exchanges technological breakdowns will prevent some  perhaps many  Oregonians from getting subsidized coverage Jan. 1, despite Gov. John Kitzhabers previous assurances otherwise. Out of more than 65,000 applicants, the exchange reports *enrolling nearly 30,000, but only about 11,000 of them in private insurance plans.*

Another 2/3rd Medicaid signups.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 21, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Cover Oregon: If you haven?t heard from us by Monday? you should probably look for alternate coverage « Hot Air
> 
> 
> It&#8217;s yet another sign that the health insurance exchange&#8217;s technological breakdowns will prevent some &#8212; perhaps many &#8212; Oregonians from getting subsidized coverage Jan. 1, despite Gov. John Kitzhaber&#8217;s previous assurances otherwise. Out of more than 65,000 applicants, the exchange reports *enrolling nearly 30,000, but only about 11,000 of them in private insurance plans.*
> ...





> *Expanded Medicaid&#8217;s fine print holds surprise: &#8216;payback&#8217; from estate after death*
> 
> *As thousands of state residents enroll in Washington&#8217;s expanded Medicaid program, many will be surprised at fine print: After you&#8217;re dead, your estate can be billed for ordinary health-care expenses. State officials are scrambling to change the rule*
> it was the fine print.
> ...






Expanded Medicaid&rsquo;s fine print holds surprise: &lsquo;payback&rsquo; from estate after death | Local News | The Seattle Times


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 21, 2013)

Jroc said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Cover Oregon: If you haven?t heard from us by Monday? you should probably look for alternate coverage « Hot Air
> ...



That is a great article!  

I've only seen this for long term care and that's if the patient has a high income and 'cost share' (co-pay) which is determined by the county.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 21, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...



Who needs private insurance when we have Medicaid right ?People who used to buy their own insurance now on Medicaid? Obama's progress


----------



## Amelia (Dec 21, 2013)

People who used to buy their own insurance _forced_ onto Medicaid!

I know Obama doesn't appreciate the notion but some people like to feel like contributing members of society.  

I understand the campaign to reduce the stigma of taking handouts when people really need to but if someone has been supporting themself their whole lives and feels pride in paying taxes and paying for their own insurance, forcing them onto government programs blows.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 21, 2013)

Yeah, but this disaster means that the hope for single payer is decades away.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 22, 2013)

Jroc said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Cover Oregon: If you haven?t heard from us by Monday? you should probably look for alternate coverage « Hot Air
> ...


Did you know that the Rs are test-marketing ads already about this and other Ocare dirty laundry? Stealing from the relatively poor to give insurance execs bigger bonuses is not going to increase the popularity of the Ds. Also the bad publicity from this legislation will hurt the reputation of the participating companies. What may kill this bill is the refusal of insurance companies to participate any further.


----------



## Terrence (Dec 22, 2013)

Obama is the greatest leader America ever had. He's got it all worked out, if it doesn't make sense to you, maybe you should consider a course in economics.


----------



## Antares (Dec 22, 2013)

Terrence said:


> Obama is the greatest leader America ever had. He's got it all worked out, if it doesn't make sense to you, maybe you should consider a course in economics.



Thanks for the laugh, that was a good one


----------



## Terrence (Dec 22, 2013)

It's no joke my friend, look at the huge strides black leaders throughout the country have made in making America great again. Look not at the color of their skin, but at their great accomplishments!


----------



## Antares (Dec 22, 2013)

Terrence said:


> It's no joke my friend, look at the huge strides black leaders throughout the country have made in making America great again. Look not at the color of their skin, but at their great accomplishments!



The Boi King is as much white as he is black.....you are right color does not matter...but this man is the worst leader in Modern History....sorry.


----------



## Terrence (Dec 22, 2013)

Antares said:


> Terrence said:
> 
> 
> > It's no joke my friend, look at the huge strides black leaders throughout the country have made in making America great again. Look not at the color of their skin, but at their great accomplishments!
> ...



Obama will forevermore be celebrated as one of the greatest leaders that ever lived...wanna bet?


----------



## Antares (Dec 22, 2013)

Of course, that's why he is polling in the low  40's. (rolling eyes)

He has never been, nor will EVER be a Leader he Carter redux.


----------



## Terrence (Dec 22, 2013)

Antares said:


> Of course, that's why he is polling in the low  40's. (rolling eyes)
> 
> He has never been, nor will EVER be a Leader he Carter redux.



Regardless of his performance, regardless of facts he will go down in history as a superb leader. If you doubt this, you must be asleep.


----------



## Listening (Dec 22, 2013)

Terrence said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, that's why he is polling in the low  40's. (rolling eyes)
> ...



No, your health care premiums just doubled or tripled.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 22, 2013)

Even the once faithful are starting to lose faith.  What happens when the ship is running with no support?

Democratic senator says Obamacare could have 'meltdown,' hurt party


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 22, 2013)

Terrence said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, that's why he is polling in the low  40's. (rolling eyes)
> ...



Hey buddy,  this is the wrong thread for the stand up comedy act


----------



## MeBelle (Dec 22, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> Even the once faithful are starting to lose faith.  What happens when the ship is running with no support?
> 
> Democratic senator says Obamacare could have 'meltdown,' hurt party



*Democratic senator says Obamacare could have 'meltdown,' hurt party*

Democratic senator says Obamacare could have 'meltdown,' hurt party

Not sure why your link wasn't working...it MUST be me!


----------



## hjmick (Dec 23, 2013)

Terrence said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, that's why he is polling in the low  40's. (rolling eyes)
> ...




If you believe this drivel you must be deaf and blind...



Or stupid.


----------



## namvet (Dec 23, 2013)

hjmick said:


> Terrence said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...





> Regardless of his performance, regardless of facts



there's your sign


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 23, 2013)

well it was written by idiots, so i gues this makes sense

..Obamacare Explained (Like You're An Idiot)


Obamacare Explained (Like You're An Idiot) - Yahoo


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 23, 2013)

Terrence said:


> It's no joke my friend, look at the huge strides black leaders throughout the country have made in making America great again. Look not at the color of their skin, but at their great accomplishments!



Obuma Care's only accomplishment was making health care unaffordable.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 23, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Terrence said:
> 
> 
> > It's no joke my friend, look at the huge strides black leaders throughout the country have made in making America great again. Look not at the color of their skin, but at their great accomplishments!
> ...


not to mention unavailable.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 25, 2013)

it always pays to be prepared for the final crash

John H. Cochrane: What to Do When ObamaCare Unravels - WSJ.com


----------



## william the wie (Dec 26, 2013)

The problem with competition in insurance and healthcare is that it results in fewer bribes to state and local officials.


----------



## Annie (Dec 26, 2013)

I've yet to sign up. Yep, tried and failed. 

Since then, found a job with bennies, kick in 2/1/14. Going to wait for that. Wonder the repercussions, then figure blood and stone.


----------



## Kosh (Dec 26, 2013)

I see the far left has no clue other than the propaganda/Talking points form the Obama drone programming.

Bronze plan = $6000 deductible and a 60%/40% split. Not sure how that is going to help the poor or the middle class.


----------



## midcan5 (Dec 26, 2013)

Re: OP: So true but we need to change the name to 'Americare,' the American approach to healthcare, you're sick, tough, you're dying tough, you're children, oh well you know that this is no longer the can do nation, wake up and smell the reality. America is no longer the nation of our founding principles. We at the top got ours tough for you, and sorry too about your outsourced work. 

*'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'*

"Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old."  from  the 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid


----------



## Jroc (Dec 26, 2013)

midcan5 said:


> Re: OP: So true but we need to change the name to 'Americare,' the American approach to healthcare, you're sick, tough, you're dying tough, you're children, oh well you know that this is no longer the can do nation, wake up and smell the reality. America is no longer the nation of our founding principles. We at the top got ours tough for you, and sorry too about your outsourced work.
> 
> *'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'*
> 
> "Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old."  from  the 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid



For some reason people like you cant understand the fact that most people had *good* health insurance coverage. the very few that didn't have it, are either illegals, or people who never bothered to get their own insurance. Other than that, those who didn't have it, or if there were people who were left out, that problem could have been fix without destroying everyone else's health insurance coverage. The problem is Obama and people like you and your stupid Obama worship. You people are sick


----------



## RKMBrown (Dec 26, 2013)

midcan5 said:


> Re: OP: So true but we need to change the name to 'Americare,' the American approach to healthcare, you're sick, tough, you're dying tough, you're children, oh well you know that this is no longer the can do nation, wake up and smell the reality. America is no longer the nation of our founding principles. We at the top got ours tough for you, and sorry too about your outsourced work.
> 
> *'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'*
> 
> "Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old."  from  the 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid



So a libtard with a libtard education and a libard family, can't get medicaid because she has too much money and refused to spend the 10grand a year on lupus treatments that she needed.  And you blame us for her and her family screwing up.  Then she dies of complications after hundreds of thousands of dollars of "free" operations.  Then you blame us again for her death.

You know what?  SCREW YOU!


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 26, 2013)




----------



## MeBelle (Dec 27, 2013)

Jroc said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > Re: OP: So true but we need to change the name to 'Americare,' the American approach to healthcare, you're sick, tough, you're dying tough, you're children, oh well you know that this is no longer the can do nation, wake up and smell the reality. America is no longer the nation of our founding principles. We at the top got ours tough for you, and sorry too about your outsourced work.
> ...



Nikki White had good insurance also.



> Not long before being diagnosed with lupus, White, who had a degree in psychology, got a hospital job that gave her medical insurance. But when her symptoms intensified, she lost the job and the insurance.



Didn't she know she was covered under HIPPA?




> *She went home to Tennessee and got TennCare for a while, but funding for that program was cut back in 2005* and she was excluded.* Social Security denied her disability benefits*.





> As Reid wrote, "If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today." Whiteironically, the daughter of two middle managers for a pharmaceutical firmdied at 32 of lupus, though today 80 percent of people with lupus live lives of normal length.




Does anyone else see the trend in these quotes?
Or am I just


----------



## Politico (Dec 27, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> So a libtard with a libtard education and a libard family, can't get medicaid because she has too much money and refused to spend the 10grand a year on lupus treatments that she needed.  And you blame us for her and her family screwing up.  Then she dies of complications after hundreds of thousands of dollars of "free" operations.  Then you blame us again for her death.
> 
> You know what?  SCREW YOU!



That's how they roll.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Dec 27, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


>



 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabama will itemize ACA taxes on consumer bills

Thanks, Obama: Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabama will itemize ACA taxes on consumer bills (photo) | AL.com


----------



## Amelia (Dec 27, 2013)

Marc Siegel: The Death of the Bedside Manner - WSJ.com



> 'It is as painful perhaps to be awakened from a vision as to be born," James Joyce wrote famously in his masterpiece "Ulysses." I recently had such an experience when my office managerwho protects me from the daily insurance grind of referrals and approvals and pre-certifications and blood drawingwas out sick. Thus the veil was lifted from my eyes, and I awoke to the harsh realities of our medical future.
> 
> One patient was severely depressed and needed medication and a referral to a psychiatrist. Another was having trouble breathing from asthma that requires inhalers. A third had a faded rash on her arm that she was ready to call a spider bite until she showed me a two-day-old iPhone photo. It was the angry red rash of Lyme disease. Each problem had an effective treatment but each visit took over half an hour to carefully complete.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 27, 2013)

a lot of lookers, but not a lot of takers

That health care law, by the numbers | Yahoo Health


----------



## Amelia (Dec 27, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> a lot of lookers, but not a lot of takers
> 
> That health care law, by the numbers | Yahoo Health




I didn't realize the fine got that large. I knew it got bigger but I didn't realize how big.  People might skip O-care this year and choose the fine, but if O-care lasts to 2016 and isn't tossed out in the states which aren't running their own exchanges, that penalty could be effective in making people find some way to afford the premiums in spite of deductibles making coverage meaningless in many cases.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 27, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> a lot of lookers, but not a lot of takers
> 
> That health care law, by the numbers | Yahoo Health


The use of religious and "temporary" 364 day insurance loopholes are appearing more often on boards like this. By the time critical mass hits with the employer exchanges this should get real interesting.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 27, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > a lot of lookers, but not a lot of takers
> ...



if this plan was any good they wouldn't have to mandate it.  the fact is, they knew it wouldn't fly, people wouldn't accept it.  So it had to be issued by force


----------



## Amelia (Dec 27, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...




Well, how could the gov't bring about reasonable coverage for preexisting conditions without mandating?  If I understand correctly, New York insurance rates have been extraordinarily high because New York required insurers to cover sick people but didn't require healthy people to join the pool.

I don't think a mandate is inherently a sign that a plan is bad.

The lies used to push the plan are a sign that it was bad but mandates themselves don't make something bad.


----------



## Antares (Dec 27, 2013)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > a lot of lookers, but not a lot of takers
> ...



There will be a Political Tsunami in November.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Dec 27, 2013)

Antares said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



I'll bite. What are you trying to say?


----------



## Antares (Dec 27, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



The ACA will set the Left back for a decade.

In the end they will win, they will get their single payor...


----------



## LoneLaugher (Dec 27, 2013)

Antares said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



Hmmmmm.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 27, 2013)

Antares said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...


Where will the votes come from? Ocare does permit temporary insurance as compliance and insurance through religious affiliation is also exempt from the law. The use of loopholes, civil disobedience and tax revolt are all growing.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 28, 2013)

> *Public opinion about the new health care reform law has hit a new low, according to a new poll Monday.*
> 
> The CNN survey found that just 35 percent of Americans approve of Obamacare, down five points since late November. Sixty-two percent said they oppose the Affordable Care Act, and 42 percent of those who disapproved said the law, President Barack Obama&#8217;s signature domestic achievement, is too liberal, CNN reports. Forty-two percent said they think their family will be worse off under the new law, up two percentage points since November





> Much of the hostility toward Obamacare is coming from women, CNN analysts say. CNN Polling Director Keating Holland said that opposition to the health care law is &#8220;bad news for an administration that is reaching out to moms across the country in an effort to make Obamacare a success.&#8221; Among women, opposition has risen almost six points since November, from 54 percent to 60 percent.



Obamacare Approval Ratings Reach All-Time Low | TIME.com


----------



## Jroc (Dec 30, 2013)

*2013: The Year of Broken Obamacare Promises*



> *1. The website is simple and user-friendly
> 
> 2. "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan."
> 
> ...




Ten Obamacare Promises Broken in 2013


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 30, 2013)

so the rush is in to get your tests before obamacare kicks in.  not a real vote of confidence.  interesting how the top medical facilities and hospitals are excluded from accepting obamacare.  can't have all those poor folk getting treated with the rich folks.  or getting quality treatment for that matter.  yea the democrats are real champions of the poor

Patients Cram In Tests Before Health-Law Start - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Antares (Dec 30, 2013)

william the wie said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



They will lose the Senate this year.
Hillary will get beat in '16....

But the damage will have been done to the system....the industry has been crippled and by 16 will have been ruined.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 30, 2013)

Antares said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...


I agree that the companies involved face ruin or withdrawal from the system but:

A) not all companies have signed on with the exchanges.

B) The use of loopholes is already growing and the bill is not yet in effect.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Dec 30, 2013)

The idea itself is horrible. Health care for all citizens? What bunk!!!


----------



## Amelia (Dec 30, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The idea itself is horrible. Health care for all citizens? What bunk!!!




Obamacare isn't health care for all citizens.  

Well, it's not health insurance for all citizens.  All citizens theoretically have access to health care, as they already did before Obama snatched the rug out from under millions of people who had insurance they liked.  But Obamacare doesn't give all citizens health insurance.  And it takes away insurance from some people who had it before.


----------



## Dante (Dec 30, 2013)

Amelia said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The idea itself is horrible. Health care for all citizens? What bunk!!!
> ...



The PPACA addressed http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...-facts-and-history-and-constitutionality.html  Opinion of ROBERTS, C. J. 7 Cite as: 567 U. S. ____ (2012) Opinion of the Court
I​
In 2010, Congress enacted the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, 124 Stat. 119. The Act aims to increase the number of Americans covered by health insurance and decrease the cost of health care.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Dec 30, 2013)

Amelia said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The idea itself is horrible. Health care for all citizens? What bunk!!!
> ...



Hmmmmm. Please name a country that legislates health care for all. 

Then......ask why we are not doing what they do.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 30, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...





Why should I do that? This thread is about Obamacare and I presumed you were implying that Obamacare was healthcare for all.  Excuse me if I misunderstood your implication.


----------



## Amelia (Dec 30, 2013)

Marc Thiessen: The Obamacare Obama gets - The Washington Post





> ....
> 
> In other words, the president signed up for Obamacare coverage he does not intend to use, skipped the disastrous Web site he forced millions of Americans to navigate, had someone else do the paperwork for him, chose the cheapest possible plan to avoid the premiums he is imposing on others and waited until the last possible moment to decide whether he wanted to cough up $400 a month as a symbolic show of solidarity.
> 
> ...


----------



## william the wie (Dec 30, 2013)

Amelia, count your blessings ACA guarantees single payer will never pass and it will also be a nullity before Obama leaves office.


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 31, 2013)

considering it is something as important as healthcare, where any glitch could mean lapsed coverage which could mean life or death, don't you think some leeway and flexibility should have been built into the system? 

Obama's tarnished health care law at a crossroads


----------



## Amelia (Dec 31, 2013)

If 2013 Was Hard on Obamacare, Just Wait for 2014 - Bloomberg


----------



## Amelia (Dec 31, 2013)

White House Insults Nation's Intelligence by Pretending Obamacare Enrollment Goal Never Existed | Mediaite


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 31, 2013)

Amelia said:


> White House Insults Nation's Intelligence by Pretending Obamacare Enrollment Goal Never Existed | Mediaite



All they do is lie.  I believe nothing that this admin says.  _Nothing_.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 31, 2013)

Yeah I expect premiums and bankruptcies to go way up in the second quarter as insurance companies find out how badly they have been screwed by this bill.


----------



## william the wie (Dec 31, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > White House Insults Nation's Intelligence by Pretending Obamacare Enrollment Goal Never Existed | Mediaite
> ...


How about "We want you to vote Democratic in 2014."? I think that would be both truthful and futile.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Dec 31, 2013)

Amelia said:


> White House Insults Nation's Intelligence by Pretending Obamacare Enrollment Goal Never Existed | Mediaite


----------



## Care4all (Jan 1, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Yeah I expect premiums and bankruptcies to go way up in the second quarter as insurance companies find out how badly they have been screwed by this bill.


quite the opposite william....

the insurance companies are not being screwed,

the insurance companies ARE the ones doing the screwing, on all of us....

and especially the people on the exchange with such high priced policies...with their high deductibles and high out of pockets....

the gvt didn't choose to do that....the insurance companies chose to do it....

This is a windfall for insurance companies....imo.


----------



## Listening (Jan 1, 2014)

Care4all said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I expect premiums and bankruptcies to go way up in the second quarter as insurance companies find out how badly they have been screwed by this bill.
> ...



So let me understand....

You are saying that Obamacare (which really isn't any kind of care) is being used against us ?


----------



## asterism (Jan 1, 2014)

Care4all said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I expect premiums and bankruptcies to go way up in the second quarter as insurance companies find out how badly they have been screwed by this bill.
> ...



So the insurance companies that resisted this "change" are the ones you blame for the inept program we all have to deal with now?



Pretty soon I expect someone to try and pin this one on Bush '43.  It's what you do when Obama fails.


----------



## rdean (Jan 1, 2014)

Since Medical Bills have been the number one cause of bankruptcy for a decade and using the emergency room for health care is bankrupting the states, I'm glad someone is doing something.  Even if it is adopting the GOP plan.  See "Romneycare".


----------



## Politico (Jan 1, 2014)

All arguments aside here's the bottom line Leftytoons. If any of you walk into a doctors office and find out you have no coverage I don't want to hear shit from you. You got what you asked for.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 1, 2014)

asterism said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...


yes...it is a windfall for insurance companies....they are in bed with the government...they have a guaranteed payment....without any resistance....


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 1, 2014)

Care4all said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


Interesting thought care, what happens when those insurance companies cannot meet their payments because of all the new coverage? They'll fold and everybody will be stuck on the government plan. 2015/2016 when it will happen.


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2014)

Listening said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



Understatement of the century (so far).


----------



## Mac1958 (Jan 1, 2014)

rdean said:


> Since Medical Bills have been the number one cause of bankruptcy for a decade and using the emergency room for health care is bankrupting the states, I'm glad someone is doing something.  Even if it is adopting the GOP plan.  See "Romneycare".




An absolutely perfect, vivid example of the problem.

"At least we did SOMETHING".  A mind-numbingly simplistic way to look at one-sixth of our economy, an incredibly complicated and intricate web of heavy government regulation, a variety of industries, and our very health.

Holy crap.

Well, this "something" didn't need to happen.  They just wanted to push "something" through because they had just enough votes.  

So now we're stuck with it, it's not going to go away, and they'll keep adding band aid after band aid after band aid to it for the foreseeable future.

But at least we did "something".

.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2014)

Mac1958 said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Since Medical Bills have been the number one cause of bankruptcy for a decade and using the emergency room for health care is bankrupting the states, I'm glad someone is doing something.  Even if it is adopting the GOP plan.  See "Romneycare".
> ...



it was more about a political win for the Obama and the democrats than anything else. Which is why none of them read the bill before it was passed, they didn't care. They got the win, which is what they wanted. the win, the power over the people, and money to their liberal, crony, organizations 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk_HPs34usU]Congressman John Dingell: "It takes a long time to ... control the people" - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACbwND52rrw]John Conyers on Reading the Healthcare Bill - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## william the wie (Jan 1, 2014)

Care4all said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


It is also CT. Obama has made promises to the exchange insurers that he has no funding for.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 1, 2014)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...


The insurance companies that stayed out of the national exchanges are not at risk and there are some biggies as well as a huge host of small ones in that category. The Pru for example is betting on the collapse of Ocare and no passage of singlepayer.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 1, 2014)

The house votes for single payer do not exist.
The exchange companies can and will stop taking new policies, if needed.
Many companies effectively priced themselves out of the subsidies.
The subsidies are a loan against the estate of the insured.
As the magnitude of this clusterfuck becomes obvious it will reduce the power of the Ds.
The states determine who can sell insurance in their state and that increasingly means that non-exchange companies have a comparative advantage.

SO BREATH INTO A BAG BEFORE YOU HYPERVENTILATE!


----------



## asterism (Jan 1, 2014)

rdean said:


> Since Medical Bills have been the number one cause of bankruptcy for a decade and using the emergency room for health care is bankrupting the states, I'm glad someone is doing something.  Even if it is adopting the GOP plan.  See "Romneycare".



And yet you support a law that incentivizes emergency room visits by charging a co-pay and deductibles to see primary care physicians and specialists.


----------



## asterism (Jan 1, 2014)

Care4all said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



I don't doubt their ability to make lemonade out of lemons, but you want to pin the blame for all this on the very same insurance companies that resisted this terrible law from the start.  That dog won't hunt.


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2014)

asterism said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



How did they resist it? They resisted single payer, and several other initiatives that threatened their profits. But in the end, they got pretty much everything they wanted.


----------



## asterism (Jan 1, 2014)

dblack said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Busted! Health Insurers Secretly Spent Huge To Defeat Health Care Reform While Pretending To Support Obamacare - Forbes

Health Care Insurers Spent $100 Million To Combat The Affordable Care Act | ThinkProgress

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print...illion-used-to-oppose-obama-s-health-law.html


----------



## Listening (Jan 1, 2014)

Care4all said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



So the government is to blame for passing a bill for letting this happen....thanks.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 1, 2014)

curses, foiled again

Justice Sotomayor blocks Obamacare contraception mandate


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 2, 2014)

Dec 30 (Reuters) - Walgreen Co said on Monday it will provide a month's supply of certain prescriptions at no upfront cost to U.S. participants who have not yet received a plan identification number under President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law.
The offering comes as U.S. government officials struggle to roll out the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare. Myriad enrollment problems have dogged the site's website, HealthCare.gov, since its October launch and many insurance companies have said they are not getting accurate enrollee information to be able to process required forms.
Walgreen offers month of prescriptions to backlogged Obamacare enrollees | Reuters

(Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc said on Tuesday it will provide a month's supply of certain prescriptions at no upfront cost to participants of U.S. President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law who have not yet received a plan identification number.
The move by Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, comes a day after Walgreen Co instituted a similar practice.
Wal-Mart Obamacare Prescription - Business Insider


----------



## Care4all (Jan 2, 2014)

Listening said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...


yes.

yes they are responsible, and if the insurance route is the way they chose to go, then it should have had more restrictions prohibiting the price gouging the insurance companies are doing...imo.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 2, 2014)

Insurance costs were already rising prior to this mess, now they are rising exorbitantly more so because of this mess.  Saying the insurance companies are price gouging when nothing was done to address the cost issue and made worse by letting people with p.e.'s "pay the same" as those without p.e.'s (hint:  those without p.e.'s have now seen their costs rise dramatically to cover the p.e. folks) is bunk.  You can't add 30+M who, prior to obamacare, couldn't afford insurance and still can't afford insurance and be surprised that whoa! someone has to pay for it all.

The only reason this stupid law was passed was because the Ds had a trifecta and ran with it.  They didn't give a shit what they passed, as long as they passed _something_.  And since they had the votes they decided to ram as much as they could into the bill and deal with the consequences later.  Well, it's later.  And it sucks.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoYv5KOxvhU#t=11]WCHS-WV: ObamaCare's Taxes Are Hiking Costs For Small Business Owners - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## william the wie (Jan 2, 2014)

The rate at which Obama is deconstructing the bill is not fast enough to keep from amplifying GOP gains in the next two elections it is fast enough to make the exchange insurance companies go belly up.


----------



## Amelia (Jan 2, 2014)

Obamacare Medicaid Expansion to Worsen Hospital ER Burden - Bloomberg




> Emergency rooms may be a preferred choice for care among 3.9 million people newly enrolled in the U.S. Medicaid program for the poor, according to a study that suggests Obamacares costs may be higher than expected.
> 
> The concern is being raised by economists who said a state Medicaid expansion in Oregon five years ago led newly insured patients to visit ERs 40 percent more often than the uninsured. That finding, published today in the journal Science, runs counter to government assumptions that the newly insured would choose lower-cost options for care, such as doctors offices.
> 
> ....





See also: Oregon Study Exposes Another ObamaCare Falsehood: Rather Than Reduce Unnecessary ER Use, Medicaid Increases It - Forbes


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 2, 2014)

You know what is really funny? The obama administration is running around saying look,  registrations are going up. People are starting to embrace the program.   No, the program is mandated.  You have to sign up.  Remove the mandate and lets see how well it is accepted


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> You know what is really funny? The obama administration is running around saying look,  registrations are going up. People are starting to embrace the program.   No, the program is mandated.  You have to sign up.  Remove the mandate and lets see how well it is accepted



How many are newly insured vs people who lost their insurance and had to go through Obamacare?


----------



## william the wie (Jan 2, 2014)

The columnists at real clear politics are claiming Ocare could cost the Ds a net 12 seats but the scarcity of polling data and being this early makes me nervous . The Hill, which is also free, has a number of arguments that are well out of my circle of competence but seem to indicate the Ds are losing or have lost viability in a majority of the states.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eED-QUfe_yQ]KUSI-CA: Countless Numbers Of Californians Still Struggling With ObamaCare Website - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Jan 2, 2014)




----------



## Joe Steel (Jan 2, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> You know what is really funny? The obama administration is running around saying look,  registrations are going up. People are starting to embrace the program.   No, the program is mandated.  You have to sign up.  Remove the mandate and lets see how well it is accepted



The tax is very small, less than a month's premium in most cases.  The mandate hardly can be considered the reason.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2014)

Where's my $2,500? 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66bgpRRSDD4]Obama Promises To Lower Health Insurance Premiums by $2,500 Per Year - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 2, 2014)

So is it like every day there is more bad news for obamacare?  lots of bad, very little good.  this program is so loaded with issues. poor planning, poor execution, poor communication. and they knew it. yet they let it go.  they more than let it go, they forced it.  

11 GOP Attorneys General Say Obamacare Fix Is Illegal


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 2, 2014)

Joe Steel said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > You know what is really funny? The obama administration is running around saying look,  registrations are going up. People are starting to embrace the program.   No, the program is mandated.  You have to sign up.  Remove the mandate and lets see how well it is accepted
> ...



spin another yarn why don't you


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 2, 2014)

Kind of long but worth the read.  If the left wonders why people are so outraged over this thing, they need to open their eyes to stories like this (which are being played out all over the country).  



> An Open Letter to the Obama Administration and American Citizens:
> 
> My familys journey with securing our new insurance under the Affordable Care Act (ACA) started on October 1, 2013. I have decided to write this letter to let the American people know what it has been like for us. We are a family of four, with two little boys ages seven years old and three years old. My husband and I have had full time jobs for 6 years and 13 years respectively. We have been with the same two companies for those years. We are a middle class family; we own our three bedroom two bath house, we own two cars, and previously provided our own insurance for the four of us. We have coverage through Individual Blue from Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabama until 12/31/13. Our premiums have been $380.00 a month, which also included dental coverage for all four of us.
> On October, 1, 2013 we received our letters like other Alabamians about our new premiums and plans for 2014 from Blue Cross Blue Shield (BCBS) of Alabama. When I opened our letter to say I had sticker shock was an understatement. Our premiums for the Blue Saver Silver would now be $753.26. This included the ACA tax but did not include the additional $75.00 we would need to pay in order to keep dental for me and my husband. So we would need to pay total $828.26 to keep health and dental insurance for the four of us. This payment is roughly $64.00 less than what we pay for our mortgage each month. I was outraged that anyone thought we could afford this. Sure we have some savings, but with that price tag we would whittle it down to almost nothing very quickly. I consider savings as a rainy day fund, a start to saving for the kids college, our retirement, etc. I never dreamed in a million years we would need to use it to pay our insurance premiums each month  how in the world could this help the economy too?
> ...



https://www.ijreview.com/2013/12/10...rience-obamacare-open-letter-american-people/


----------



## Amelia (Jan 3, 2014)

APNewsBreak: Adding a new baby to plan not easy



If a family is just over 133% of federal poverty level, could having a baby make them fall below and make them have to repay the subsidies they received?

Maybe I have the threshold wrong, but you know what I'm getting at.  Could having a baby make someone owe the government a subsidy refund?


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2014)

> *The Health Exchange Marriage Penalty*
> 
> 
> Just as there are penalties in the tax code for couples who get married, financial penalties in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA) also discourage couples from "tying the knot." The ACA establishes state health insurance exchanges where qualifying individuals can purchase subsidized, individual health insurance, starting in October 2013.
> ...




The Health Exchange Marriage Penalty | NCPA


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 3, 2014)

Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Chief Operating Officer Michelle Snyder is on her way out after 41 years working for the federal government, but she won't leave without absorbing some final slings and arrows from critics of the Affordable Care Act.

'She had to go,' the official said. 'She was responsible for the implementation of Obamacare. She controlled all the resources to get it done. She was in charge of information technology. She controlled personnel and budget.'


Butttttt....   

'Well, excuse me, congresswoman,' came Sebelius' answer. 'Michelle Snyder is not responsible for the debacle. Hold me accountable for the debacle. I'm responsible.'




Top Republican smacks Obamacare higher-up for 'cult like' website rush as she resigns following healthcare.gov debacle | Mail Online


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 3, 2014)

*THE TOP 10 SIGNS YOU'VE ENROLLED IN OBAMACARE.*

10. Your annual breast exam is done at Hooters.

9. Directions to your doctors office include Take a left when you enter 
the trailer park.

8. The nurses station has a tip jar.

7. The only proctologist in the plan is Gus from Roto-Rooter.

6. The only item listed under Preventive Care Coverage is An apple a day..

5. Your primary care physician is wearing the coveralls with
a Goodwill brand tag.

4. Where it says, The patient is responsible for 200% of out-of-network 
charges, its not a typographical error.

3. The only expense that is 100% covered is embalming.

2. Your Prozac comes in different colors with little Ms on them.

AND THE NUMBER ONE SIGN YOUVE JOINED OBAMACARE:

1. You ask for Viagra and they give you a popsicle stick and duct tape.



Tru Ghost


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2014)

Jroc said:


> > *The Health Exchange Marriage Penalty*
> >
> >
> > Just as there are penalties in the tax code for couples who get married, financial penalties in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA) also discourage couples from "tying the knot." The ACA establishes state health insurance exchanges where qualifying individuals can purchase subsidized, individual health insurance, starting in October 2013.
> ...


The federal Poverty level does this...which was there LONG before the ACA/obamacare....and that is because the Federal Poverty level presumes that 2 people married and living together have less of an expense to live than 2 single individuals living on their own paying 2 rents, individually buying their own food, paying their own electric and heat vs two people sharing those expenses.

Now, about the Exchange and this so called discrimination against a married couple with no kids.....a policy for two married people is CHEAPER than doubling the policy price of 2 individuals...that right there makes up the difference between the federal poverty level disparity for individuals and families of 2....you don't need DOUBLE the subsidy assistance as an individual's subsidy, because the policy for the married couple is much cheaper than the policies of 2 single individuals.

so, this gripe is blowing hot air for nothing....honestly it is....


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2014)

Amelia said:


> APNewsBreak: Adding a new baby to plan not easy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good question...don't know, but I would presume that the insurance coverage that they got up to the point of Delivery will be covered and they won't owe a penny more, until the time of change in family members....if it does put them in the doughnut hole....

All States need to add the Medicaid expansion option....this will solve a great many of the ills with Obamacare for the poorest among us.

These States, including mine are HURTING their very citizens who are the least among us, while helping those families of 4 making 90k a year....it is simply wrong, wrong, wrong....and the citizens in the States without the expansion are paying for the Healthcare of all of these Medicaid expansion State citizens, without reaping the benefit for their own citizens and neighbors....

I don't like that one bit and am urging our Congress to add the Medicaid expansion....for the poor.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > > *The Health Exchange Marriage Penalty*
> ...



Yeah? do have numbers to back that up? one single person might qualify for medicare where as the if they were married and combined their incomes they wouldn't. Incentive not to be married? insurance policies are going up across the board regardless I can personally vouch for that fact... Way up.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > APNewsBreak: Adding a new baby to plan not easy
> ...



People who used to buy their own coverage are now moving to Medicare...you personally want a single payer system...Obamacare is nothing but a scrambled, mess, of payoffs and crony deals. All the money were are wasting ,we could have taken care of the 20 % who didn't have insurance, without screwing up everyone else's coverage


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Medicaid Insurance costs less money per individual than insurance on Obamacare, and it has BETTER coverage for  this lesser amount of money for the government to pay, with our tax dollars....  I'm for less spending...and the medicaid expansion is the way to go for the poorest among us imo.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



individuals paying for their own coverage cost less, and too many doctors aren't even taking Medicaid anymore, because in too many of cases, the payment doesn't even cover their costs. Better coverage than Obamacare? Maybe so,But both stink and cut down on the choices people have plus states going broke paying for Medicaid. Better to increase competition and cut cost that way Medicaid is for the "very poor" only


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Where you used the term "Medicare" did you mean to say "Medicaid", Jroc?

Cuz they are NOT the same programs.....?


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Oops... my mistake let me change it


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2014)

jroc....we do not in any way have a "free market" situation with Healthcare in this Nation....the government has had its fingers in it for nearly 100 years now....the gvt gives tax write offs to the businesses for supplying health care benefits at those companies, the gvt gives tax write offs to individuals for the amount they pay towards their premiums through their employer, the government funds more than 50% of ALL medical research done in this nation, the gvt helps Pharma secure a monopoly of sorts on branded drugs for a longer period of time than initially in the law...the government pays for the healthcare of Veterans, and the Military and for all Federal employees in the nation and pays for Pharma research and development as well, and pays the Hospitals for taking in the indigent, and gives tax payers a write off on their taxes if they spend more than 7% of income, and the gvt created HSA's with tax benefits for health care spending, and the gvt pays for CHIP, the healthcare of children and the gvt is involved with Medicare and Medicaid and Military retiree health care and on and on and on and on and on.....

Our gvt is up to its eyeball's with it's involvement with this supposed "free market" in healthcare and that's BEFORE Obamacare was even introduced.

there is no way, that their involvement will stop and if their involvement does not stop in every way they are involved, there will NEVER be a "free market" with health care OR LOWER prices as you seem to think can happen...


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2014)

Care4all said:


> jroc....we do not in any way have a "free market" situation with Healthcare in this Nation....the government has had its fingers in it for nearly 100 years now....the gvt gives tax write offs to the businesses for supplying health care benefits at those companies, the gvt gives tax write offs to individuals for the amount they pay towards their premiums through their employer, the government funds more than 50% of ALL medical research done in this nation, the gvt helps Pharma secure a monopoly of sorts on branded drugs for a longer period of time than initially in the law...the government pays for the healthcare of Veterans, and the Military and for all Federal employees in the nation and pays for Pharma research and development as well, and pays the Hospitals for taking in the indigent, and gives tax payers a write off on their taxes if they spend more than 7% of income, and the gvt created HSA's with tax benefits for health care spending, and the gvt pays for CHIP, the healthcare of children and the gvt is involved with Medicare and Medicaid and Military retiree health care and on and on and on and on and on.....
> 
> Our gvt is up to its eyeball's with it's involvement with this supposed "free market" in healthcare and that's BEFORE Obamacare was even introduced.
> 
> there is no way, that their involvement will stop and if their involvement does not stop in every way they are involved, there will NEVER be a "free market" with health care OR LOWER prices as you seem to think can happen...



of course we don't have a free market,  the government pays for too many things, that doesn't mean we haft to add more to it. We need real reform, not more crony deals, which is what Obamacare is. Veterans earned their benefits, the rest can be reformed, we need tax reform as well. Obama promised reform he gave us more cronyism. Do you know how much money is wasted on the bureaucracy alone?


----------



## dblack (Jan 3, 2014)

Resistance its futile.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2014)

dblack said:


> Resistance its futile.


No DB...  I just want to know if the country is willing to give up all of that cronyism OR NOT....

if the people that work and get their healthcare from their employer .....are they willing for the government to no longer give them the tax write off for it and chance that their employer takes the benefit away?  Are the citizens willing to give up not having to pay taxes on their health care spending?  Are the citizens willing to give up on the governments funding most of medical research and development?  Or are they willing to give up what the gvt spends on Medical schools and medical students so that we have enough doctors?

Cuz as it stands, I don't see that happening....it's all about "me" to most citizens and they are not willing to give up what they have.... so yes, it is impossible to "correct" the system as long as ALL of these things are going on which makes health care unaffordable and causes us to need something like Obamacare or like a Universal Health Care Plan in the first place imo.


----------



## dblack (Jan 3, 2014)

Care4all said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Resistance its futile.
> ...



Sad, but true.


----------



## dblack (Jan 3, 2014)

dblack said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Which is to say, "Resistance is futile".


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2014)

dblack said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Default and bankruptcy is inevitable then. 90 trillion in unfunded liabilities


----------



## Jroc (Jan 4, 2014)

> *Obamacare Confusion Causes Patients to Walk Out of Hospitals*
> 
> Patients in northern Virginia are walking out of hospitals untreated due to uncertainty regarding their coverage after Obamacare&#8217;s Jan. 1 deadline.
> 
> The Daily Mail reported that patients were told by hospital administrators that they were not sure if the patients were covered by their new insurance.



Obamacare Confusion Causes Patients to Walk Out of Hospitals | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 4, 2014)

more lies.  what a surprise.

Here?s Evidence Obamacare Isn?t Lowering Healthcare Costs


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 4, 2014)

obmacare kills unemployment benefits.  seriously though, how far can we keep stretching our tax dollars?  what is happening wrong in American is our tax dollars used to be spent on services that benefit everyone.  Roads, bridges, fire and police protection and many others that benefited all citizens.  Today though, larger and larger chunks of our money are going to benefit specific segments of society.  Not society as a whole

How Obamacare helped kill unemployment aid | The Exchange - Yahoo Finance


----------



## william the wie (Jan 4, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> obmacare kills unemployment benefits.  seriously though, how far can we keep stretching our tax dollars?  what is happening wrong in American is our tax dollars used to be spent on services that benefit everyone.  Roads, bridges, fire and police protection and many others that benefited all citizens.  Today though, larger and larger chunks of our money are going to benefit specific segments of society.  Not society as a whole
> 
> How Obamacare helped kill unemployment aid | The Exchange - Yahoo Finance


What tends to be forgotten in this debate is that medicaid payment rates are so low that they significantly increase deathrates relative to even the uninsured and on many state exchanges those reimbursement rates are even lower as in CA. That will be ever bigger news.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 4, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > obmacare kills unemployment benefits.  seriously though, how far can we keep stretching our tax dollars?  what is happening wrong in American is our tax dollars used to be spent on services that benefit everyone.  Roads, bridges, fire and police protection and many others that benefited all citizens.  Today though, larger and larger chunks of our money are going to benefit specific segments of society.  Not society as a whole
> ...



FYI
medicaid reimbursement rates ARE INCREASED under obamacare, NOT REDUCED.....William?

Doctors are getting paid/reimbursed MORE now than before the ACA....



> *Provider Payments*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Listening (Jan 4, 2014)

Care4all said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



Forbes does not agree with you.....

Doctors Face A 24% Pay Cut In Both Medicare And Medicaid Reimbursements - Forbes


----------



## Care4all (Jan 4, 2014)

Listening said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...


by now, you should know that the guy at forbes has a partisan agenda...I mean, how many articles has Forbes  Opinion done now on the ACA...40?  50?  *All* distorted and *all *without the full truth....if you research and check *ALL *that has been said in these articles you would know this....

You shouldn't trust your source without confirming what they tell you and say...


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 4, 2014)

Listening said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



I have an original idea for you...ask a doctor.
Most of my physicians are mighty pleased.
My optometrist isn't very happy, but I can't get him to provide any concrete numbers.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 5, 2014)

Care4all said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



so are taxes.  and this from a guy who said he wouldn't increase taxes on the middle class. but of course, as usual, the middle class is the one bearing the full weight of these taxes.  

Forget 'Keep Your Plan' And The Website, Obamacare Taxes Are Worse - Forbes


----------



## Amelia (Jan 5, 2014)

Democrats Continue Class Warfare Rhetoric | RealClearPolitics



> After 14 months, one Pittsburgh businessman still wonders: If everyone like him had voted in 2012, how differently might 2013 have turned out?
> 
> The lifelong Democrat, who runs a five-man machine shop, regrets not voting for president in 2012.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jroc (Jan 5, 2014)

My Mother was just laid off.... Her company is being downsized to 40 employees


----------



## Amelia (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm sorry.  What kind of business did she work for?




It's easy to be glib about Democrats reaping the rewards of disincentivizing businesses from hiring but all my glibness flies out the window when I think about the real people being hurt.  I get angry.  I hope your mother lands on her feet.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 5, 2014)

Amelia said:


> I'm sorry.  What kind of business did she work for?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Telemarketing....She's on social Security too, so she can still pay her bills at least. The younger people don't have that option.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 5, 2014)

and lest we forget medicaid eligibility was expanded more than medicaid expenditures so on a per capita basis reimbursement must be cut.


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 6, 2014)

Care4all said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



Here is the rule:
View Rule
Here is the definition of the rule:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title42-vol4/pdf/CFR-2011-title42-vol4-part447.pdf
Here is what's happening in one state: (info is hard to come by)
CMS rule will subject Medicare physicians to 24% cut on January 1 | Medical Association of Georgia
Here is an article on why:
Permanent 'Doc-Fix' Looks DOA for 2013 - NationalJournal.com


> CMS decided not to finalize its proposal to cap physician payment rates at the hospital outpatient or ambulatory surgery center level.


Which means  only Doctor office visits are covered, Medicaid reimbursement increases to the new lower levels of Medicare reimbursement. 

And I can't say for sure cause my eyes are bugging out from reading too much, but it appears this rule only pertains to states that set up their own exchanges.


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 6, 2014)

Covered California Faces $78M Deficit in FY 2015-2016 Budget - California Healthline

Thursday, January 2, 2014
Covered California will face a $78 million deficit in fiscal year 2015-2016 when the federal government stops providing funding for the exchange through the Affordable Care Act, according to budget estimates, U-T San Diego reports.


----------



## Listening (Jan 6, 2014)

MeBelle60 said:


> Covered California Faces $78M Deficit in FY 2015-2016 Budget - California Healthline
> 
> Thursday, January 2, 2014
> Covered California will face a $78 million deficit in fiscal year 2015-2016 when the federal government stops providing funding for the exchange through the Affordable Care Act, according to budget estimates, U-T San Diego reports.



Thanks for posting this.

I wonder where J.B. thinks that money will come from.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 6, 2014)

So as it stands, obamacare is nothing like the universal healthcare plans they have in Europe or Canada.  

The New Double Standards in Obamacare?s Medicaid - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 6, 2014)

Jroc said:


> My Mother was just laid off.... Her company is being downsized to 40 employees



Jroc, a friend of mine owns a large contract packaging company.  he employed 265 FT people and had a part time floating force for peak seasons.  he now has 16 FT employees and the rest are now part time.  because of obamacare. most of his part time people are his previous FT.   Same workers getting less hours.


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 6, 2014)

Listening said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Covered California Faces $78M Deficit in FY 2015-2016 Budget - California Healthline
> ...



Didncha' hear?  Cali has a huuuuuge budget surplus this year?


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 7, 2014)

it figures the staple of the hard working Americans as a safety net when they become seniors would be hit the hardest.  sickening.  now that we are getting a chance to see the reality of obamacare, i wonder how many seniors are pissed as hell at AARP for steering them wrong and backing obamacare.

More Cuts In Store For Medicare Plans -- Here Are The Options That Will Shrink Most For Seniors - Forbes


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 7, 2014)

Amelia said:


> I'm sorry.  What kind of business did she work for?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and that is what realy sucks.  more people are being hurt then are being helped.  and the burden of this mess is falling squarely on the shoulders of the middle class.  the poor, they are subsidized. The rich, have their own plans. Obamacare is a non issue to them.  the burden of the cost falls squarely on the hard working middle class


----------



## Jroc (Jan 8, 2014)

Evil Walmart?...




> *Walmart health plan is cheaper, offers more coverage than Obamacare*
> 
> New Obamacare health insurance enrollees may feel a pang of envy when they eye the coverage plans offered by Walmart to its employees.
> 
> ...




Surprise! Walmart health plan is cheaper, offers more coverage than Obamacare | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 8, 2014)

Ebil, Ebil, EBIL Walmart I say....


----------



## william the wie (Jan 9, 2014)

Why am I unsurprised?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 9, 2014)

> A central premise of ObamaCare was that vastly expanding Medicaid would ultimately save health care dollars. The millions of uninsured gaining access to Medicaid would no longer crowd costly emergency rooms looking for care, the thinking went. And that improved access would keep them healthier.
> 
> Turns out that neither of those claims is true.
> 
> ...



ObamaCare's Phony Medicaid Promise Of Cost-Savings Is Exposed - Investors.com


----------



## william the wie (Jan 9, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> > A central premise of ObamaCare was that vastly expanding Medicaid would ultimately save health care dollars. The millions of uninsured gaining access to Medicaid would no longer crowd costly emergency rooms looking for care, the thinking went. And that improved access would keep them healthier.
> >
> > Turns out that neither of those claims is true.
> >
> ...


Ocare is closing emergency rooms by cutting the subsidies that keep them open. Not a criticism of your source just pointing out the difficulty of connecting all of the dots with this pos.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 9, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > > A central premise of ObamaCare was that vastly expanding Medicaid would ultimately save health care dollars. The millions of uninsured gaining access to Medicaid would no longer crowd costly emergency rooms looking for care, the thinking went. And that improved access would keep them healthier.
> ...



More going to the ERs but less ERs available = chaos.  Never let a crisis go to waste.


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 10, 2014)

It may be 'the law,' but Obamacare deserves no respect | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## william the wie (Jan 10, 2014)

MeBelle60 said:


> It may be 'the law,' but Obamacare deserves no respect | WashingtonExaminer.com


You are a starry eyed optimist. The state exchanges make the national exchange look good. The Rs can and, if they had both a brain and a spine, would campaign on the employee mandate being postponed, "Obama pushed it past the election to avoid giving us veto proof majorities in both houses." Not that that is actually true 67 senate seats and 290 house seats are not mathematically possible but it would sell well.

The 1% vote disproportionately D and donate their money the same way. Do the Rs play the populist card vs. new class/statist/crony capitalism? Excuse me while I vomit, simultaneously giving thanks that I have with one exception voted Libertarian since 1980 whenever possible.


----------



## Politico (Jan 10, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry.  What kind of business did she work for?
> ...



Not to mention the disabled who will continue to be screwed left and right.


----------



## Amelia (Jan 10, 2014)

Obamacare Hasn't Slowed The Growth of Health Care Costs - It's The Economy, Stupid!



People don't seek medical care because they can't afford it.  Yay, Obama brought down healthcare spending!

People give up looking for work so they're no longer counted as unemployed.  Yay, Obama brought down unemployment!

QE2 helps buoy Wall Street while Main Street languishes.  Yay, Obama has saved the economy.

Obama's failed diplomacy leaves Iraq with no American presence to help protect against the return of the terrorists.  Yay, Obama got everyone out of Iraq.

Russia bails out Syria, Iran bails out Iraq, the Saudis and the Israelis are looking to each other because the Obama administration is having friendly chats with the crazy dictators.  Yay, Obama is playing a long game.  We have no idea what the eff the game is.  But it's Obama, so we know it's good.


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 10, 2014)

william the wie said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > It may be 'the law,' but Obamacare deserves no respect | WashingtonExaminer.com
> ...



Not starry eyed at all. I live what I post concerning ACA.

Here's a gift for you 








Hope it's big enough! ')


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 11, 2014)

we really are so screwed.  I wonder if the true cost to the American public for this disaster will ever be known?  What kind of healthcare reform allows for out of control price increases?  There isn't a democrat in office that should be allowed to remain there. 

New Survey of Health Insurance Brokers: Private Health Plan Premiums Are Spiking. Now, Even The Fed Is Watching These Trends - Forbes


----------



## william the wie (Jan 11, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> we really are so screwed.  I wonder if the true cost to the American public for this disaster will ever be known?  What kind of healthcare reform allows for out of control price increases?  There isn't a democrat in office that should be allowed to remain there.
> 
> New Survey of Health Insurance Brokers: Private Health Plan Premiums Are Spiking. Now, Even The Fed Is Watching These Trends - Forbes


ACA has never been anything but a D pork barrel of epic proportions robbing the poor to give to the rich. Only the Ds can't figure out how to do that and so they are screwed.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jan 11, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > we really are so screwed.  I wonder if the true cost to the American public for this disaster will ever be known?  What kind of healthcare reform allows for out of control price increases?  There isn't a democrat in office that should be allowed to remain there.
> ...



*obamacare vs Walmart*


----------



## GWV5903 (Jan 11, 2014)

jon_berzerk said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



The Village Idiot knows this is the biggest scam ever...

Oh wait, it was the Village Idiot that created this mess...


----------



## william the wie (Jan 11, 2014)

That's about the size of it.


----------



## Politico (Jan 12, 2014)

Wow comparing Walmart who provides plans under one umbrella to the ACA that is a website. Brilliant.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 12, 2014)

Politico said:


> Wow comparing Walmart who provides plans under one umbrella to the ACA that is a website. Brilliant.



Obamacare is a joke ...Not very "brilliant"


----------



## Amelia (Jan 12, 2014)

Politico said:


> Wow comparing Walmart who provides plans under one umbrella to the ACA that is a website. Brilliant.




The comparison was made between Walmart and networks available under the ACA.

It appears that Walmart alone may provide more coverage options than all the the options available through healthcare.gov combined.  

"ACA" is  the shorthand for the options now available to people -- options which in many cases are fewer than what people had before the law went into effect.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 12, 2014)

*Sen. Udall Under Fire For Attempting To Alter ObamaCare Cancellation Numbers*


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_5ba63rIyA]KOAA-CO: Sen. Udall Under Fire For Attempting To Alter ObamaCare Cancellation Numbers - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Jan 12, 2014)




----------



## william the wie (Jan 13, 2014)

The state small business exchanges are beginning to generate news but I thought they had been postponed until after the election, anyone know the facts?


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 13, 2014)




----------



## Amelia (Jan 13, 2014)

william the wie said:


> The state small business exchanges are beginning to generate news but I thought they had been postponed until after the election, anyone know the facts?




Deadlines are postponed until after the election but businesses have to think ahead.  It should be big news in October.



Wait, _state_ small business exchanges?   I'm not familiar with news on state exchanges.  Do you have a link?


----------



## Amelia (Jan 13, 2014)

Spoonman said:


>


----------



## william the wie (Jan 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > The state small business exchanges are beginning to generate news but I thought they had been postponed until after the election, anyone know the facts?
> ...


No, I don't do links, I figure they are a transitional technology, I began working in electronics in 1970 and quickly learned that all technology is transitional. Two mnemonics for the resistor color code are still rattling around in my brain including at least three others for less common audiences I have thankfully forgotten. The one for women peers is "Batman blows robin on yonder Gotham's bridge violently giving way." the male peer one would offend you, the men and women suits plus customer varieties I gave thankfully forgotten. Now, they are mostly on ICs.


----------



## emilynghiem (Jan 13, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Evil Walmart?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One of the traditional arguments against Wal-Mart was the workers were paid so little, they were depending on govt subsidies anyway, in addition to their salaries.

Did Wal-Mart reform their policies? How many of their employees receive additional public assistance? Is this included in this explanation of Wal-Mart's employment practices?


----------



## Jroc (Jan 13, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Evil Walmart?...
> ...



Government subsides need to be cut. It's not Walmarts fault the government hands out money to half the country..... They have good insurance though


----------



## RKMBrown (Jan 13, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Evil Walmart?...
> ...


Walmart is a retail store.  You talk like a retail store needs highly paid professionals to stock the shelves, clean the floors, and cash people out at the door.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> >



ooooopsie!   it looks like he should have crossed more than his fingers. does anything work on that cursed website? 

Latest Obamacare headache: Thousands may not be insured after all | Daily Ticker - Yahoo Finance


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > The state small business exchanges are beginning to generate news but I thought they had been postponed until after the election, anyone know the facts?
> ...



Second wave of health-insurance disruption affects small businesses - The Washington Post

When millions of health-insurance plans were canceled last fall, the Obama administration tried to be reassuring, saying the terminations affected only the small minority of Americans who bought individual policies.

But according to industry analysts, insurers and state regulators, the disruption will be far greater, potentially affecting millions of people who receive insurance through small employers by the end of 2014.

While some cancellation notices already have gone out, insurers say the bulk of the letters will be sent in October, shortly before the next open-enrollment period begins. The timing  right before the midterm elections  could be difficult for Democrats who are already fending off Republican attacks about the Affordable Care Act and its troubled rollout.


----------



## Amelia (Jan 13, 2014)

> The impact of cancellations in the small-group market is expected to be less dramatic than in the individual market, partly because a higher percentage of small-business policies provide more generous benefits. Still, the changes being made by the insurance industry are leaving some small-business owners confused and disillusioned about the law &#8212; whether it is directly to blame for the changes or not.




If Obama hadn't lied so much and if Democrats and the media hadn't called me a  racist for complaining about things which deserved to be complained about, I would be willing to help spread information which might help alleviate some of the confusion about Obamacare.  

Oh wait, no, scratch that.   If Obama hadn't lied so much, Obamacare wouldn't have passed. At least not in the present form.  So I wouldn't need to help spread information to help people get past some of the confusion.

That said, I do have one friend who is in such dire straits because of her cancelled policy that I tried to help her get over her fears about the security issues of the healthcare.gov site so that maybe she would at least check to see if she can get something more affordable than she was left with.  She has paid taxes all these years.  If she can get some subsidies and help with deductibles, I want her to be able to take it even though Obama and the Democrats remain utter slime for forcing her into this position.


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 13, 2014)

A government report released Monday says Medicare is paying out-sized amounts for male vacuum erection systems compared to non-Medicare payers.

The inspector general for the Department of Health and Human Services found that Medicare payments for the devices remain grossly excessive, or more than twice as much as the Department of Veterans Affairs and consumers on the Internet pay.


Medicare overpaying millions on 'erection pumps': report - Washington Times


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> >



Notice the url title?

*the-new-lair*


----------



## Amelia (Jan 13, 2014)

lol ... that's funny


----------



## asterism (Jan 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> > The impact of cancellations in the small-group market is expected to be less dramatic than in the individual market, partly because a higher percentage of small-business policies provide more generous benefits. Still, the changes being made by the insurance industry are leaving some small-business owners confused and disillusioned about the law  whether it is directly to blame for the changes or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No need to go to the government site, she can look for options by contacting an agent from here:

Agent Finder


----------



## william the wie (Jan 13, 2014)

OK, quick summary:

Reduce GDP by 6-8% through eliminating excess medical services.

Reduce estates and retirement by means of Medicaid subsidy liens against patients.

Reduction of contingent liabilities through waiting line deaths.

Increase revenues to healthcare insurance companies at the expense of all other forms of consumption.

reduce the availability of full time employment.

What's not to like.


----------



## Amelia (Jan 13, 2014)

asterism said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > > The impact of cancellations in the small-group market is expected to be less dramatic than in the individual market, partly because a higher percentage of small-business policies provide more generous benefits. Still, the changes being made by the insurance industry are leaving some small-business owners confused and disillusioned about the law  whether it is directly to blame for the changes or not.
> ...




Can she get a subsidy that way?


----------



## Antares (Jan 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Any agent worth a damn can help her with all of it. It isn't nearly as complicated as everyone thinks.


----------



## Amelia (Jan 13, 2014)

I'll pass the link on to her.  Thanks.


----------



## asterism (Jan 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Yes, most agencies have agents that can use insurance provider tools to write qualifying policies with subsidies.  Look for one that is certified to market ACA FFM (Federally Facilitated Marketplace) plans.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 15, 2014)

so if you are going to go public and bitch about something, shouldn't you make sure you have your facts straight first?   its kind of bad when you complain numbers are way overstated, you invesitage and they turn out to be even worse.  lol  libs just can't win with obamacare

Sen. Mark Udall was right, sort of: Those Colo. Obamacare cancellation numbers were wildly off | Twitchy


----------



## Jroc (Jan 15, 2014)

> *
> Oregon Health Exchange Yet to Complete One Enrollment
> Considering switching to federal exchange next year*
> 
> ...




Oregon Health Exchange Yet to Complete One Enrollment | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 15, 2014)

A report this week shows that about 75,000 state residents signed up for health care on the federal exchange through Dec. 28. Nationally, about 2.2 million registered through December.

Standing with Sebelius, Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan said Wednesday that there are heart-breaking stories every day in the city's hospital systems of "people who end up losing a foot or a leg" from untreated diabetes.

Michigan Republican U.S. Senate candidate Terri Lynn Land is criticizing Sebelius, saying she should take responsibility for what Land calls the failure of Obama's health plan.


Sebelius promotes Affordable Care Act in Detroit - Fox 2 News Headlines

This makes me giggle...I have no idea why.


----------



## billyerock1991 (Jan 16, 2014)

Antares said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



all agents go through the web site to get you policy ... they also will get you a subsidy if you qualify for it ... as for myself my cost has been cut in half of what I was paying and my deduction went from 5000 dollars to 250 dollar ... my Prescriptions went from paying 25 dollars a Prescription to 4 dollars per Prescription ... of course that's in a blue state ... in red states well who knows ???


----------



## billyerock1991 (Jan 16, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> so if you are going to go public and bitch about something, shouldn't you make sure you have your facts straight first?   its kind of bad when you complain numbers are way overstated, you invesitage and they turn out to be even worse.  lol  libs just can't win with obamacare
> 
> Sen. Mark Udall was right, sort of: Those Colo. Obamacare cancellation numbers were wildly off | Twitchy



in colorado, the state I live in, the state your site refers to, I have sign up, a lot of people have signed up, because we are a blue state now .... as for your site ... until Udal got all the numbers, which by the way, I was one of those numbers who got canceled ... 
I'm happy as hell with what I have now ...I have a policy that covers my needs ... a policy that won't cost me 5000 dollars every time I use it ... as for the complainers in Colorado, tuff shit !!! deal with it !!!


----------



## billyerock1991 (Jan 16, 2014)

MeBelle60 said:


> A report this week shows that about 75,000 state residents signed up for health care on the federal exchange through Dec. 28. Nationally, about 2.2 million registered through December.
> 
> Standing with Sebelius, Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan said Wednesday that there are heart-breaking stories every day in the city's hospital systems of "people who end up losing a foot or a leg" from untreated diabetes.
> 
> ...



you're evil and ignorant for one...


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 16, 2014)

ah, trouble in the growinf demographic.  this spells real trouble

Anti-Obamacare Ads Highlight Hispanic Dismay With the ACA - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 16, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > so if you are going to go public and bitch about something, shouldn't you make sure you have your facts straight first?   its kind of bad when you complain numbers are way overstated, you invesitage and they turn out to be even worse.  lol  libs just can't win with obamacare
> ...



so what you are admitting to here is that you are one of those slackers who draws off the system because you haven't figured out how to or don't have the ability to make it on your own


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 16, 2014)

ok, Wow, just wow!  So what is really happening with Obamacare?   Seems to be that the peopel who have signed up so far are the people who draw from the system.  People who are being subsidized.  But who isn't signing up are people who are an asset.   People who are paying on their own and help provide the funding for the people who drain.  so in other words, this sucker isn't even close to being funded.   man is the middle class taxpayer ever going to be hammered on this mess

The Startling Number That May Spell Doom For Obamacare - PolicyMic


----------



## Amelia (Jan 16, 2014)

But  billyerock1991 is happy.  America owes him.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 16, 2014)

bottom line.  it doesn't work.   Bottom line, they are still shoving it down our throats. also, besides the cost of the plan itself, just think of the cost to the taxpayer from all the lawsuites and challenges being filed.  a fuck up of epic proportions by the democrats launching obamacare.   not one democrat should be reelected in november

6 major hurdles to implementing Obamacare - Diana Furchtgott-Roth - MarketWatch


----------



## william the wie (Jan 16, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> bottom line.  it doesn't work.   Bottom line, they are still shoving it down our throats. also, besides the cost of the plan itself, just think of the cost to the taxpayer from all the lawsuites and challenges being filed.  a fuck up of epic proportions by the democrats launching obamacare.   not one democrat should be reelected in november
> 
> 6 major hurdles to implementing Obamacare - Diana Furchtgott-Roth - MarketWatch


The Ds are in trouble with blacks, hispanics and women. But the house Rs under Boner and senate Rs under McCon are trying for a fix that will continue this stupidity. Getting rid of the Ds is insufficient.


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 16, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > A report this week shows that about 75,000 state residents signed up for health care on the federal exchange through Dec. 28. Nationally, about 2.2 million registered through December.
> ...



Can't count Billy?


----------



## Jroc (Jan 16, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > so if you are going to go public and bitch about something, shouldn't you make sure you have your facts straight first?   its kind of bad when you complain numbers are way overstated, you invesitage and they turn out to be even worse.  lol  libs just can't win with obamacare
> ...




There are polices that cost $5000 every time you use it? Is that a new Obamacare policy?


----------



## Amelia (Jan 16, 2014)

Jroc said:


> There are polices that cost $5000 every time you use it? Is that a new Obamacare policy?





I remember someone in a recent thread who thought the deductible reset for each time you saw a doctor.  I didn't remember who thought that.  Sounds like maybe it was Billy.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 16, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > There are polices that cost $5000 every time you use it? Is that a new Obamacare policy?
> ...



He's not too bright


----------



## MeBelle (Jan 16, 2014)

Jroc said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



Billy explains it all here...and so much more! 

http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...is-the-big-day-will-obamacare-site-crash.html


----------



## william the wie (Jan 16, 2014)

D stands for dumber.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 16, 2014)

lol,  obamcare commercial

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kimVLbCKVOo#ws]ObamaCare commercial explains how cost shifting works.[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Jan 16, 2014)

Extended version of the segment.  

Jimmy Kimmel Savages ObamaCare and Uninformed Young People Who Support It | NewsBusters

It's awesome!


----------



## Jroc (Jan 16, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> lol,  obamcare commercial
> 
> ObamaCare commercial explains how cost shifting works.



 That's friken hilarious


----------



## william the wie (Jan 16, 2014)

Does anyone else get the feeling that we may wake up at any second and realize that Ocare is the funny skit we watched just before going to bed?


----------



## Jroc (Jan 17, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYGEl-smsgU]WOOD-MI: New Report Finds Western Michigan Has 1,000 Fewer Jobs Due To ObamaCare - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jroc (Jan 17, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oYRo7vp4UA]Hacker: No security ever built into Obamacare website healthcare gov - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jroc (Jan 17, 2014)

"Nothing Has Really Changed"

Security Expert on Healthcare.gov: ?Not Secured Today ? Nothing Has Really Changed? | CNS News


----------



## william the wie (Jan 17, 2014)

It ain't going to change either. But Jroc look at the cost containment targets and realize that each cost is someone's income. Ocare is designed to sink the economy.


----------



## RKMBrown (Jan 17, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > lol,  obamcare commercial
> ...



lol


----------



## william the wie (Jan 18, 2014)

I was discussing "the wall of worry" for the stock market and a few points relevant to this discussion came up:

Overly narrow networks particularly in CA are likely to amplify talent and capital flight in many states.

External shocks and/or other bad news will be blamed on Ocare due to the goal of eliminating 8-12% of GDP involved in healthcare and related fields such as insurance, medequip, pharma et al.

Did anyone think to run the numbers for "externalities" on this turkey?


----------



## Amelia (Jan 18, 2014)

Seems like there was a dearth of realistic analysis.


----------



## Rozman (Jan 18, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > g5000 said:
> ...






> *Why of course. It's Oblama's fault that we must have auto insurance or face a penalty, no mortgage insurance, like hell, you are forced to have it.*



No one is FORCED to buy auto insurance.
No one is FORCED to have a mortgage.
Why? no one is forced to operate a vehicle or own a home..
So you don't have to if you don't want.

Because of ObamaCare everyone is forced to buy insurance or pay a fine...

I thought everyone understood this??


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 18, 2014)

> The majority of the more than 2 million Americans who signed up for health insurance under ObamaCare through the end of December were already enrolled in employer-sponsored plans or had previously bought their own coverage, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.
> 
> Early data from insurers, brokers and consultants suggest that the marketplaces are popular with consumers who were previously covered elsewhere, raising questions about a law intended to expand coverage to millions of healthy, uninsured Americans to help offset costs.
> 
> ...



^ bolded? bingo.

Most ObamaCare enrollees already had health plans, report says | Fox News


----------



## william the wie (Jan 18, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Seems like there was a dearth of realistic analysis.


What amazes me is how rapidly state level Democrats are becoming an endangered species across the nation and another major gerrymander loss there won't be a national Democratic party. Political analysis is something I expect politicians to understand.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 19, 2014)

I've posted references to this before.  the widening gape between healthcare available to the rich and what the poor can expect.  already the to hospitals and clinics have been excluded from obamacare.   
now it looks like employers can give better insurance to executives than the workers.   but the poor still believe Obama is their man.   Obama sold out to the man.  and the man is insurance companies and pharmaceuticals. they now own healthcare

Yahoo!


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 20, 2014)

Lots of voters to be impacted in these states

5 States Potentially Headed for Obamacare Disasters (AET, CI, HUM)


----------



## william the wie (Jan 20, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Lots of voters to be impacted in these states
> 
> 5 States Potentially Headed for Obamacare Disasters (AET, CI, HUM)


 I disagree somewhat with the Motley Fool. Pre-existing financial problems make CA, IL, NY, MA and MD the most vulnerable states in regards to shocks of any sort.


----------



## Trajan (Jan 20, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Lots of voters to be impacted in these states
> 
> 5 States Potentially Headed for Obamacare Disasters (AET, CI, HUM)



frankly it is simply stupefying , if true that,  oregano has not registered completely one, thats 1 enrollee....unbelievable.

 look this thing is heading for a massive and I mean massive cash infusion, theres is simply no other way. those 30 million ( down from their pre-obamacare figure of 46 million) folks how are uninsured, maybe, by next jan. we'll net 10 or 12 million....OF THOSE, but running a possible net negative due to folks losing, cancelling,  being cancelled etc...


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 20, 2014)

Trajan said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of voters to be impacted in these states
> ...



that has been one of the concerns from the start.  this thing only made any financial sense if a few dozen, hypothetical, if/then actions took place.  and all of them had to take place while most were improbable.  as predicted this is going to become nothing more than a massive entitlement program with the burden falling on the middle class once again.  politicians  who pushed this through should not only be elected out of office, they should be run out on a rail.    this is complete and total failure by our government.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 20, 2014)

Somebody please green Spoonman for that last post. 8 states going into default by the 2016 election is the way to bet.


----------



## billyerock1991 (Jan 20, 2014)

boedicca said:


> I'm hoping this is finally the moment when Reactionary Liberalism totally Jumps The Shark.



and when you find out that you're totally wrong then what???


----------



## Jroc (Jan 21, 2014)

> *Woman Spent Six Weeks Trying to Get Out of Obamacare Insurance*
> 
> A Missouri woman spent six weeks trying to unenroll from Obamacare using its &#8220;navigators&#8221; and online help.
> 
> ...



Woman Spent Six Weeks Trying to Get Out of Obamacare Insurance | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 22, 2014)

195,000 people a year die in the USA from misdiagnosis or improper healthcare.   What was done to address that with the claimed healthcare overhaul obamacare?  what was done to improve anything with healthcare, cost, quality, resources?  besides being a massive entitlement program, how was healthcare reformend?


----------



## william the wie (Jan 22, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> 195,000 people a year die in the USA from misdiagnosis or improper healthcare.   What was done to address that with the claimed healthcare overhaul obamacare?  what was done to improve anything with healthcare, cost, quality, resources?  besides being a massive entitlement program, how was healthcare reformend?


Actually this is one case where ACA might be useful. By computerizing symptoms, diagnoses and outcomes from all doctors better analysis is possible. whether it will get done is another question.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 22, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > 195,000 people a year die in the USA from misdiagnosis or improper healthcare.   What was done to address that with the claimed healthcare overhaul obamacare?  what was done to improve anything with healthcare, cost, quality, resources?  besides being a massive entitlement program, how was healthcare reformend?
> ...



considering their computerizatoin can't even register folks, i'm not holding out much faith it will cure them    lol


----------



## Amelia (Jan 22, 2014)

The computerization of records is another place where many people have been impacted but the news coverage has brushed them under the rug.

Medical transcription services are being put out of business at a faster rate than natural, so it's harder for their people to get retrained and absorbed into the rest of the work force.  And doctors' practices have spent lots of money on technology which hasn't worked very well.  

At least that's what I've heard murmuring about.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 22, 2014)

Amelia said:


> The computerization of records is another place where many people have been impacted but the news coverage has brushed them under the rug.
> 
> Medical transcription services are being put out of business in a faster rate than natural, so it's harder for their people to get retrained and absorbed into the rest of the work force.  And doctors' practices have spent lots of money on technology which hasn't worked very well.
> 
> At least that's what I've heard murmuring about.


This is part of the intended reduction in employment and economic output of ACA.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 22, 2014)

This is getting really bad.  we all expected problems with this plan but never really to the magnitude there are.  Obamacare is hurting far more people than it is helping.  Someting has to be done to stop this disaster.  i honestly can't believe the democrats are still running blindly ahead with this mess

Target Joins Home Depot, Walmart, Others In Cutting Health Care For Part-Timers, Citing Obamacare - Forbes


----------



## william the wie (Jan 22, 2014)

Another diminishing of GDP. As I posted on another thread this program has the potential of making the Y2K, 87 and 29 crashes look like walks in the park.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 23, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> This is getting really bad.  we all expected problems with this plan but never really to the magnitude there are.  Obamacare is hurting far more people than it is helping.  Someting has to be done to stop this disaster.  i honestly can't believe the democrats are still running blindly ahead with this mess
> 
> Target Joins Home Depot, Walmart, Others In Cutting Health Care For Part-Timers, Citing Obamacare - Forbes



Yup.  My daughter (the college grad, 5/2012) stills works p/t at Target (can not find a real job) and told us this last night.  One worker who got his insurance via Target said he can not afford whatever is on the exchanges and is opting to just pay the fine.  Here's the problem .... insurance isn't some random waste of money that many often think it is, especially younger people. They tend to think it's a waste to pay all this money for something that they likely won't need and then when they don't needs it, it just reconfirms what they believe.  They don't get it.  That exactly the scenario one wants!  You want to pay xx for car insurance or house insurance or health insurance and (hopefully) you won't have to actually use it.  That means you're covered 'just in case' but don't have any problems, so you  never need to make a claim.  That means you haven't had any accidents, your pipes didn't burst, and you are healthy.  So while this guy is saving his $700/yr (or whatever) he is setting himself up for problems down the road because you just don't know what can/might/will happen.  And who will be on the hook for when he gets slammed in a multi-car accident and requires surgery or therapy or ?? ... you and me.  Still.

How can this thing be so catastrophically bad and still exist?  Is there nothing that can be done to stop it?  We still have insurance via the hubs work but this time next year it will not surprise me one bit if that is gone, baby, gone and we will be like millions of others out looking for insurance and paying even more through the nose.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 23, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > This is getting really bad.  we all expected problems with this plan but never really to the magnitude there are.  Obamacare is hurting far more people than it is helping.  Someting has to be done to stop this disaster.  i honestly can't believe the democrats are still running blindly ahead with this mess
> ...



it shows you the government doesn't care about the people.  all they care about is saying see, we told you we would deliver this and we did.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 23, 2014)

ok, when the entities that were set to most benefit from obamacare start to bitch there are major issues, you know we are really up shits creek.   

We need to fix Obamacare's young-person problem?Commentary


----------



## william the wie (Jan 23, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> ok, when the entities that were set to most benefit from obamacare start to bitch there are major issues, you know we are really up shits creek.
> 
> We need to fix Obamacare's young-person problem?Commentary


Moody's in doing downgrades on the bond ratings of the insurers as well. I hope someone can find a list of the down, I can't.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 25, 2014)

I thought obamacare was supposed to be the better insurance option? I guess not.  

Workers Opting For Employer Coverage Over ObamaCare - Forbes


----------



## percysunshine (Jan 25, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> I thought obamacare was supposed to be the better insurance option? I guess not.
> 
> Workers Opting For Employer Coverage Over ObamaCare - Forbes



That little problem will be fixed soon. HHS predicts that half of people with employer plans will lose them when the mandate is in place.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 25, 2014)

percysunshine said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > I thought obamacare was supposed to be the better insurance option? I guess not.
> ...




Yep it's already started and the mandated hasn't kicked in yet



> *More Companies Dump Employee Insurance for Obamacare*
> 
> This week, another major U.S. retailer, Target, announced that it will be cutting health coverage for its part-time workers in response to changes stemming from the president&#8217;s health care law.
> 
> ...



More Companies Dump Employee Insurance for Obamacare | The Fiscal Times


----------



## william the wie (Jan 25, 2014)

This will have major effects this fall.


----------



## percysunshine (Jan 25, 2014)

william the wie said:


> This will have major effects this fall.



Maybe, maybe not. Obama has never hesitated to use Executive Orders for purely political objectives. The screws are being tightened on the insurance companies suborned by this administration.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 25, 2014)

william the wie said:


> This will have major effects this fall.



Hopefully some good will come out of this disaster


----------



## william the wie (Jan 25, 2014)

Jroc said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > This will have major effects this fall.
> ...


Just keep in mind that there is no reset on ACA and the state exchange states are using this program to balance their budgets over the dead bodies of their poor most notably CA.


----------



## BobPlumb (Jan 25, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



Damn William, I was trying to get the 1000th post in this thread, but you beat me to it!


----------



## william the wie (Jan 25, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Sorry about that, want to share the honors?


----------



## Antares (Jan 25, 2014)

It will comical to watch the Prez dance come September and October....he will be furiously using that pen he threatened the nation with in order to try and save the Senate.


----------



## BobPlumb (Jan 25, 2014)

william the wie said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



No, you get the honors thus time.  I will just have to watch the threads for other "odometer moments".


----------



## william the wie (Jan 25, 2014)

Antares said:


> It will comical to watch the Prez dance come September and October....he will be furiously using that pen he threatened the nation with in order to try and save the Senate.


By that time he will be toast. The BRICS are in trouble and the EU is flirting with deflation. Even if the ACA and state exchanges were working according to specs he would be making Bush during the meltdown look good by that time. He might get a veto sustained in the house due to gerrymandering but the D senate classes of 2014 and 2016 are unlikely to be of much help.


----------



## Spoonman (Jan 28, 2014)

now lets sit back and see how cooperative libs really are.  or will they be their usual obstructionist we don't compromise selves?

Obamacare Replacement Proposed by Republicans - MainStreet


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jan 31, 2014)

People discover just how* &#8220;affordable&#8221;* the Affordable Care Act is

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuA2_P-m4Sk#t=184]WTAE-PA: Pennsylvania Small Business Hit With Skyrocketing Health Costs From ObamaCare - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## william the wie (Jan 31, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> now lets sit back and see how cooperative libs really are.  or will they be their usual obstructionist we don't compromise selves?
> 
> Obamacare Replacement Proposed by Republicans - MainStreet


 I'm a libertarian and I think this bill sucks only slightly less than Ocare.


----------



## dblack (Jan 31, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > now lets sit back and see how cooperative libs really are.  or will they be their usual obstructionist we don't compromise selves?
> ...



I'm not even sure I see the 'slightly less', but yeah - basically what you said.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 31, 2014)

dblack said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...


I did not specify millimeters, micrometers or nanometers as the measurement of defining slight on purpose.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 31, 2014)

*
Sick Kids Denied Specialty Care Due to Obamacare in Washington*




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhx_Xhh9ca8]KING-WA: WA Children Denied Access To Specialty Care At Hospital Due To ObamaCare Plan - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jroc (Feb 1, 2014)

*Convicted criminals working as Obamacare navigators in California.* 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvLFPYqL3TA&feature=youtu.be]Melchior: Obamacare Navigators with Criminal Backgrounds 'Definitely Happening Elsewhere' - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## william the wie (Feb 1, 2014)

betterer & betterer


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 2, 2014)

ok, so Obamacare is basically designed to help the uninsured get insurance, right?  we kept hearing about the nations uninsured and how this plan was so great because it was going to help them.  So what do these uninsured think about obamacare.  and more importantly, how are their feelings trending since it has actually been launched?  Survey says......

Could This Negative Trend Mean Trouble Ahead for Obamacare? (CYH, HCA, THC)


----------



## Amelia (Feb 2, 2014)

Among those I know who need insurance the most, there is considerable alarm about the security of the healthcare.gov site.  I cannot in good faith tell them there is nothing to fear about the site but I try to lessen their concern.  And then I mention the agent finder site to them as an alternative.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 3, 2014)

Ah the hidden costs.   people are about to find out they can't afford to use their free health care

Obamacare Sticker Shock Found in Deductibles, Not Premiums - Yahoo Finance


----------



## william the wie (Feb 3, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Ah the hidden costs.   people are about to find out they can't afford to use their free health care
> 
> Obamacare Sticker Shock Found in Deductibles, Not Premiums - Yahoo Finance


more importantly they can't use the healthcare due to geography. The available networks are so narrow that waiting line deaths will be big news.


----------



## Jroc (Feb 4, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm3PZNuTf-E]Obamacare Could Cause Iowa Hospitals To Close Their Doors - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## emilynghiem (Feb 4, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Obamacare Could Cause Iowa Hospitals To Close Their Doors - YouTube



When those opposed to Obamacare start bailing out hospitals and doctors who can't provide services under it, maybe that is where we will see state innovations and better alternatives come out of free market and voluntary funding of medical services and facilities directly.

Whatever structure it takes to save the medical programs, that's where we should have been focusing in the first place. Not paying money to corporate insurance companies who don't provide any medical services or facilities, and don't train any doctors, nurses or clinic interns.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 4, 2014)

Texas Doctor Writes Epic Letter Breaking Up With Insurance Company: I Will Not Comply | Independent Journal Review


----------



## Amelia (Feb 4, 2014)

5 Devastating Obamacare Facts From CBO's Latest Economic Report


----------



## emilynghiem (Feb 4, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Texas Doctor Writes Epic Letter Breaking Up With Insurance Company: I Will Not Comply | Independent Journal Review



Big Thanks to you for posting this, and to the doctor for writing it. This reminds me of the Sheriff who refused to enforce some gun regulation he felt went against his oath to uphold the Constitution and Second Amendment. The final check on government and interpreting/enforcing laws DOES remain with citizens and common sense. No one can make you worship, follow or fund a religious authority against your will, and this ACA is like setting up a national religion to bypass the Constitution and make any law you want as long as majority rule votes on it. Sorry, but Constitutional laws and common sense still get in the way of a bad political conspiracy to defraud the public of equal human rights and freedom under law.

We should all write "Dear John" letters to Congress and renounce the ACA as government interference with our beliefs in free choice of health care, "signing our names to business contracts with insurance companies" that we did NOT consent to nor agree to pay for, and penalizing an entire class of taxpayers without due process proving which persons have committed any crime before depriving us of liberties we had before the ACA was passed.

If criminals in prison are not required to pay for health care that is charged to the public, even in cases where they were convicted of premeditated violence causing injuries and DOCUMENTED costs of emergency room surgeries and other medical assistance at taxpayer expenses, then certainly law-abiding taxpayers should not be required to pay additional tax penalties or fines for not buying insurance which is NOT a crime. The bill makes no sense if it treats lawabiding citizens penalized for earning higher income, which is not a crime, WORSE than lawbreaking criminals whose costs to public health have been documented. 

Believing in other ways of providing or paying for our own health care is not a crime either. Those who believe in states' rights, and our right as taxpayers to vote directly on health care policies, should not be penalized by law, in favor of others who believe in singlepayer health care regulated through federal government. We should all remain equally free to fund health care policies and programs of our choice, in accordance with our religious and political beliefs held equal under Constitutional laws. The federal government is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of creed, exempting some while penalizing others.

I cannot participate in, endorse, or support the ACA insurance mandates without becoming complicit in "conspiring to violate the civil rights and equal protections" of other citizens whose political beliefs are not only excluded from equal practice but penalized by this bill. 

In your face,
Signed: ___ ___


----------



## william the wie (Feb 4, 2014)

Nothing will really change until the expected bodycount per month firms up and that will not be known until June 2014 at the earliest. With the rate of ER closures possibly peaking in 2015 the count may not level out until 2016.


----------



## freedombecki (Feb 4, 2014)

Amelia said:


> 5 Devastating Obamacare Facts From CBO's Latest Economic Report



Some quotes from your link, Amelia:



> If youre a Denver Broncos fan who watched in horror as your team disintegrated during the Super Bowl on Sunday, then youll have some idea of how Obamacares proponents will feel as they read this report.


 


> 1) Obamacare Will Destroy 2.5 Million Jobs By 2024
> 2) In 2024, There Will Still Be 31 Million People In The U.S. Without Health Insurance
> 3) Surprise! Millions Of People Who Liked Their Health Plan Will Lose Their Health Plan
> 4) Obamacare Reduces The Incentive To Find And Keep A Job
> ...


----------



## Amelia (Feb 4, 2014)

#4 gets me.

The White House is trying to spin that as a feature.  Now people won't feel tied to a job, they say.  It's a good thing.   They're free to change to part time, or no time, and voluntarily contribute less in taxes while letting wage earners pay for their healthcare.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 5, 2014)

A father called into Rush today and said that his son was kicked off his insurance when the son turned 23.  I think he said it was in October.  He was surprised and was sure it was an error but his research told him that it was perfectly legal because of some O-care exception.  Even after he learned his son wouldn't be able to stay on his insurance, he heard Obama repeat the false claim that he would.  The radio was on in the background so I didn't register the details.  I think the exception might have been because the father was retired but I'm not sure.

Did anyone here catch the story?


----------



## MeBelle (Feb 6, 2014)

Amelia said:


> A father called into Rush today and said that his son was kicked off his insurance when the son turned 23.  I think he said it was in October.  He was surprised and was sure it was an error but his research told him that it was perfectly legal because of some O-care exception.  Even after he learned his son wouldn't be able to stay on his insurance, he heard Obama repeat the false claim that he would.  The radio was on in the background so I didn't register the details.  I think the exception might have been because the father was retired but I'm not sure.
> 
> Did anyone here catch the story?



I don't listen to radio unless it's cranked when my maid and I are cleaning the house. 

Couldn't find a transcript. Might show up on Thursday?


----------



## Amelia (Feb 6, 2014)

I tried to do some googling and I don't know if this is the same situation but it appears that people on Tricare aren't able to keep their kids on their insurance. 

Tricare is for the military, right?

So kids of military members aren't given the same breaks as other kids?


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 6, 2014)

Amelia said:


> #4 gets me.
> 
> The White House is trying to spin that as a feature.  Now people won't feel tied to a job, they say.  It's a good thing.   They're free to change to part time, or no time, and voluntarily contribute less in taxes while letting wage earners pay for their healthcare.



its all part of the reshaping of america plan.  do you remember the old company store concept?  where you worked for the company and everything you need you purchased through the company store.   you were always indebt to them so you could never afford to leave.  basically, you became their slave.    well the new america is the old company store concept. Only yhe government is tho company and obama is the CEO


----------



## william the wie (Feb 6, 2014)

Amelia said:


> I tried to do some googling and I don't know if this is the same situation but it appears that people on Tricare aren't able to keep their kids on their insurance.
> 
> Tricare is for the military, right?
> 
> So kids of military members aren't given the same breaks as other kids?


Tricare is military.

I do not know.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 6, 2014)

you know, every time you look their is another major issue popping up.  Pelosi was right.  we really have to launch it to see what its all about.  what a collective screw up this has  turned out to be.  I'd have more respect for the democrats if they just owned up and said we need to take a step back and rework this.  but they won't.  they will continue to force failure on us.  I have no respect for that. 

Obamacare 'Bailout' For One Insurer Will Cost Up To $450 Million In 2014 - Forbes


----------



## william the wie (Feb 6, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> you know, every time you look their is another major issue popping up.  Pelosi was right.  we really have to launch it to see what its all about.  what a collective screw up this has  turned out to be.  I'd have more respect for the democrats if they just owned up and said we need to take a step back and rework this.  but they won't.  they will continue to force failure on us.  I have no respect for that.
> 
> Obamacare 'Bailout' For One Insurer Will Cost Up To $450 Million In 2014 - Forbes


The reason Ocare could launch is that exchange insurers have become federally regulated utilities with Ag like subsidies like in ethanol or milk.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 10, 2014)

Health Insurance Enforcement Delayed Again for Some Employers



> For employers with between 50 and 99 employees, delays for another year (until 2016) the requirement that they offer health coverage to their employees or face a penalty. Temporarily reduces the percentage of employees that larger companies are required to cover.



Changes and Delays to the Health Law (and this is just from the past year)


----------



## MeBelle (Feb 10, 2014)

Amelia said:


> I tried to do some googling and I don't know if this is the same situation but it appears that people on Tricare aren't able to keep their kids on their insurance.
> 
> Tricare is for the military, right?
> 
> So kids of military members aren't given the same breaks as other kids?



Looks that way.

TRICARE Eligibility | Military.com


----------



## oreo (Feb 10, 2014)

Amelia said:


> #4 gets me.
> 
> The White House is trying to spin that as a feature.  Now people won't feel tied to a job, they say.  It's a good thing.   They're free to change to part time, or no time, and voluntarily contribute less in taxes while letting wage earners pay for their healthcare.



That's exactly what's happening.  You have a fire sale going on with medicade under Obamacare--meaning FREE insurance--while not many are pushing the buy button--or their getting most of their insurance subsidizes by others who's premiums went through the roof that don't qualify for subsidies.

*Obamacare is nothing more than a SUCKER PUNCH to the middle class of this country.*  The have's are paying for the have not's.  This has nothing to do with RICH people paying for other people's insurance.  The rich can afford any premium.  It's the middle class that are going to pay for this one.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 10, 2014)

There's an ad which runs regularly on the radio here, where someone says she has opened a 401K and her brother (sounds like) accuses her of having given up.  He's still counting on a rich uncle dying and leaving everything to them. He says that retirement shouldn't be something to save for, it should be a way of life.  

In the ad, the brother is considered the misguided one.  

Now that Democrats have decreed that the brother has the right idea, I guess the ad council will need to pull that one and retool it with new talking points from Obama.


----------



## Jroc (Feb 11, 2014)

> *Cover Oregon Scandal Deepens
> State officials reportedly lied about progress of site*
> 
> 
> ...




Cover Oregon Scandal Deepens | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## Amelia (Feb 11, 2014)

That's scary on so many levels.

... including how the fed had standards Oregon was supposed to pass, but the fed didn't pass the standards themselves, and how the fed was snookered by Oregon.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 11, 2014)

Obamacare stuck in government 'abyss': Health CEO


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 11, 2014)

funny, a few years ago I referred to Obama's new America as a banana republic

KRAUTHAMMER: New Obamacare Delay Is 'The Kind Of Stuff You Do In A Banana Republic' - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Amelia (Feb 11, 2014)

ZOMG

Thought Police: Firms must swear ObamaCare not a factor in firings | Fox News

So the reason for Obama's latest subversion of the law was to head off people who he suspected would lay off people to get under the 50 employee limit?


----------



## william the wie (Feb 11, 2014)

Amelia said:


> ZOMG
> 
> Thought Police: Firms must swear ObamaCare not a factor in firings | Fox News
> 
> So the reason for Obama's latest subversion of the law was to head off people who he suspected would lay off people to get under the 50 employee limit?


Yeah, how bad do you think that will backfire?


----------



## Jroc (Feb 12, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edZvKjoaMZg]WVIT-CT: Connecticut Woman Doesn't Have Access To Her Favorite Doctor On ObamaCare Exchange - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jroc (Feb 13, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql3SXU82WyY]Obamacare Broken Promises Montage - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## dblack (Feb 13, 2014)

One of the "promises" made in the campaign to sell us ACA, was the idea that the IRS was limited in its ability to actually collect the penalties associated with the individual mandate. They told us that, if you refused to pay the mandate penalty, the most the IRS could do was deduct it from any refund owed.

Now, setting aside the stupidity of passing a law with penalties that are relatively easy to dodge (or, even dumber, advertising it as a 'feature' of the law), do we really believe that? Even if it is, for now, the letter of the law, does anyone believe it would remain so, especially in the face of widespread civil disobedience?


----------



## william the wie (Feb 13, 2014)

dblack said:


> One of the "promises" made in the campaign to sell us ACA, was the idea that the IRS was limited in its ability to actually collect the penalties associated with the individual mandate. They told us that, if you refused to pay the mandate penalty, the most the IRS could do was deduct it from any refund owed.
> 
> Now, setting aside the stupidity of passing a law with penalties that are relatively easy to dodge (or, even dumber, advertising it as a 'feature' of the law), do we really believe that? Even if it is, for now, the letter of the law, does anyone believe it would remain so, especially in the face of widespread civil disobedience?


I suspect the Obamabots do believe that.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 13, 2014)

Rosen: Don't let Mark Udall's Obamacare scandal slide - The Denver Post


----------



## william the wie (Feb 13, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Rosen: Don't let Mark Udall's Obamacare scandal slide - The Denver Post


Stay cool, 6/30/14 we will have the last of the audited numbers for the first quarter, by 9/30/14 the earnings reports will cover everyone who signed up 1/1-3/31/14. 
4/15/15 the first subsidy recapture nightmares will hit.
This turkey will not fly.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 13, 2014)

So dems are all about the people while republicans favor corporations.  well maybe not.

Businesses get relief on Obamacare deadline. Here?s why consumers likely won?t | The Exchange - Yahoo Finance

Businesses get relief on Obamacare deadline. Here&#8217;s why consumers likely won&#8217;t

The Affordable Care Act, President Obama&#8217;s signature health reform law, has turned out to be friendlier toward businesses than many ever imagined. The White House has twice delayed the deadline by which companies must comply with major provisions of the law, for instance, while easing up on other requirements.

But individuals are unlikely to get a similar break. The deadline for all Americans to have health insurance is March 31, and with only about 3.3 million enrolled so far, that leaves more than 40 million Americans who don&#8217;t have health insurance. Some of them will qualify for exemptions from the &#8220;individual mandate,&#8221; as it&#8217;s known, but that could still leave more than 10% of the U.S. population in violation of the law as of April 1.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 13, 2014)

This is getting exciting fast.


----------



## Wyld Kard (Feb 13, 2014)

Everyone should be required to have one of these cards.


----------



## Jroc (Feb 13, 2014)

Wildcard said:


> Everyone should be required to have one of these cards.




Obama keeps those in his pocket


----------



## Amelia (Feb 15, 2014)

Remember Obama Saying People With Pre-Existing Conditions Shouldn't Pay More? Yeah, Well? | | Independent Journal Review


----------



## william the wie (Feb 15, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Remember Obama Saying People With Pre-Existing Conditions Shouldn't Pay More? Yeah, Well? | | Independent Journal Review


This is surprising?


----------



## Politico (Feb 16, 2014)

Nope. He doesn't want them  covered at all if possible.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 16, 2014)

That should become fairly well known prior to the election.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 17, 2014)

Mary Landrieu's campaign web site seems to be missing something « Hot Air


----------



## Amelia (Feb 18, 2014)

Report: Major medical industry job loss under Obamacare | The Daily Caller


----------



## emilynghiem (Feb 18, 2014)

Wildcard said:


> Everyone should be required to have one of these cards.



It's called invoking the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Well that, and maybe a plane ticket to Russia to seek political asylum.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 19, 2014)

hey, remember when surprises used to be fun.  well not anymore with obamacare

Obamacare's Latest Surprise for Taxpayers? - Bloomberg


----------



## Jroc (Feb 20, 2014)

Obamacare must be a joke...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpucmfBcH7c]Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar And Rep. Tim Walz Can't Answer Obamacare Questions - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Jroc (Feb 20, 2014)

*Fourth Georgia Hospital Closes Because of Obamacare*



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkL9ulpTA-Y]A Fourth Georgia Hospital Is Being Forced To Close Because Of Obamacare - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Feb 20, 2014)




----------



## MeBelle (Feb 21, 2014)

The U.S. government is expected to announce this week the proposed payment rates for insurer-run Medicare plans in 2015, but industry officials say the anticipated cuts will mean higher co-pays and fewer benefits for seniors.

Of the more than 50 million older Americans who receive coverage through Medicare, about 15 million are enrolled in Medicare Advantage plans offered by companies such as UnitedHealth Group Inc., Humana Inc. and Aetna Inc. The rest use Medicare fee-for-service programs, in which doctors are reimbursed by the government for patient visits and procedures.


Health Insurers Brace for New Steep Medicare Cuts

The Obama administration ignited a new election-year controversy Friday when regulators handed down fresh cuts to Medicare Advantage (MA).

Next year, plans in the program will see their payments cut by at least 2 percent on average between ObamaCare and a regular annual update, the announcement stated.


The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) argued that the reductions will help to strengthen the program &#8212; an increasingly popular alternative to traditional Medicare &#8212; and guard against waste.

"We are making certain that plans are providing value to Medicare and taxpayers," said CMS principal deputy administrator Jonathan Blum in a statement.

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/medicare/198957-hhs-announces-new-medicare-cuts#ixzz2u0YWYNBK 

"Nearly every week we hear about another group Americans harmed by ObamaCare," said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), who is facing a primary challenge, in a statement. 

"Today, it is America's seniors &#8230; While some Senate Democrats may have second thoughts, these are the same Democrats who voted to impose these cuts on seniors in the first place."


----------



## MeBelle (Feb 21, 2014)

As the administration touts the benefits of ObamaCare in a push to sign up more people before the March deadline, a FoxNews.com review shows how much of the law has really been pushed off. 

Since its inception, provisions of the law have been delayed a total of 28 times; the average delay was six months and three weeks. Put another way, the cumulative delays add up to an astonishing 15 years and three months. 

The administration has been announcing changes to the law at a fairly steady clip. 

The White House's latest delay was rolled out on Feb. 10, and allowed companies with between 50 and 99 workers to skirt the mandate to provide health care until 2016. 

Tracking ObamaCare: As enrollment deadline nears, law endures 28 delays and counting | Fox News


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 22, 2014)

Affordable Health Care Act?   Give me a break

ObamaCare Deductibles Hit Patient Pocketbooks And Hospital Finances - Forbes


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

This is going to cause so many hospital closures it ain't funny.


----------



## simo5656 (Feb 22, 2014)

sucks.  The republican solution sucks.  The real solution is already known to the vast majority of Americans.  It is explained here:  [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uI9UyJS6_I]Give us free health care - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

Obama destroyed the political capital needed for that solution.


----------



## simo5656 (Feb 22, 2014)

He did.  Definitely.  But Republicans destroyed it to.  You know why?  Cause the health care lobbyists wrote a bill that is fucking many of an Americans.  They literally wrote the bill.  So its no surprise Obamacare sucks for most of us.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

simo5656 said:


> He did.  Definitely.  But Republicans destroyed it to.  You know why?  Cause the health care lobbyists wrote a bill that is fucking many of an Americans.  They literally wrote the bill.  So its no surprise Obamacare sucks for most of us.


The Republicans would have also screwed the pooch I will grant you. However Pelosi, Reid and Obama excluded them from the negotiations. So, through no fault of their own the Rs have clean hands on this one. That reopens the question of which of our major parties is Dumb and which is Dumber?


----------



## simo5656 (Feb 22, 2014)

I'll accept that.  I like your honesty and your posts.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 22, 2014)

It was a misbegotten plan all around.

They bit off more than they could chew and didn't give a damn about the people saying to slow down and break their project into smaller portions so as to have better legislation they didn't need to lie about, legislation which wouldn't be so inherently complicated with so incredibly much potential for negative consequences.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

Hey Amelia I hit my 24 hour limit on rep could you rep spoonman and Simo for me?


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2014)

simo5656 said:


> He did.  Definitely.  But Republicans destroyed it to.  You know why?  Cause the health care lobbyists wrote a bill that is fucking many of an Americans.  They literally wrote the bill.  So its no surprise Obamacare sucks for most of us.




You're blaming the GOP because the Dems colluded with health care lobbyists to write and pass a bill that the GOP voted against?

Your cognitive dissonance is pathetic.


----------



## dblack (Feb 22, 2014)

boedicca said:


> simo5656 said:
> 
> 
> > He did.  Definitely.  But Republicans destroyed it to.  You know why?  Cause the health care lobbyists wrote a bill that is fucking many of an Americans.  They literally wrote the bill.  So its no surprise Obamacare sucks for most of us.
> ...



That one always cracks me up. I get that Republicans would have probably served up a similar heap of manure. But this time it was the Democrats. They own it outright.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2014)

dblack said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > simo5656 said:
> ...




Yes, indeed they do.  And they are terrified.


----------



## TRFjr (Feb 22, 2014)

g5000 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > The good news is that eventually the bad news will get out.  It's probably too late to do much good.  Jobs, income and insurance policies are already lost -- even if there is a delay Blue Cross Blue Shield won't be able to say, "Come back to us at your old rates and deductions".  Nor will employers be able to say, "Come back to work for us at your old hourly level for one more year before we have to let you go again".  But at least the news will eventually be told.  I hope.
> ...



what people had before Obama care was the Bronze plans monthly premium with the gold or silver plan deductibles


----------



## Amelia (Feb 22, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Hey Amelia I hit my 24 hour limit on rep could you rep spoonman and Simo for me?






I got Simo.  I have to spread some before I can get spoonman ... or you.


----------



## simo5656 (Feb 22, 2014)

Amelia said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Amelia I hit my 24 hour limit on rep could you rep spoonman and Simo for me?
> ...



what do you mean you got simo?


----------



## Amelia (Feb 22, 2014)

dblack said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > simo5656 said:
> ...




Republicans wouldn't have done it at all.  Whatever their theoretical plans they woudln't have done much if anything on the healthcare front.  Especially not during or right after a recession.  

That's what some people use to excuse Democrats' lies.  They say, "Well, Republicans had their chance and didn't reform healthcare, so the Democrats did what they had to do."  

Except of course Democrats didn't do what they had to do.  They didn't have to lie.  They didn't have to do things which would disincentivize growth and employment.   They didn't have to ignore everything they knew about economic realities and pretend that all of a sudden employers would be willing to swallow all sorts of new costs that they've spent decades trying to avoid.  Etc. Democrats didn't have to create such an incredibly bad piece of legislation.  Nothing Republicans did or didn't do justified the assault the Democrats made on our governing principles.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 22, 2014)

simo5656 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...




I repped you.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

Check your rep at USP. But back to dishing the dirt. The Rs will probably lose McCon in KY and still net 9 senate seats, governorships will be harder since that is a target poor environment and in the house there are extremely few vulnerable seats on either side of the aisle so again single digit pick-ups. 

The problem is what will the Rs do without say Hillary and a last ditch defense of ACA to give them massive wins on the state level in the run up to reappoarchment?


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

Amelia, Spoonman and Boedicca you are ignoring the economic problems of China and the EU. If either of them have a hard landing much a sympathetic mutual crash that will make ACA look like the worst decision in US economic history. 

No repeal, reform or replacement of ACA will get either China or the EU, much less both, out of the economic ditch. And that implicit claim is being made by the Rs.


----------



## percysunshine (Feb 22, 2014)

This should go over well next November.

HHS announces new Medicare cuts | TheHill

In for a penny, in for a pound...I guess...

.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

percysunshine said:


> This should go over well next November.
> 
> HHS announces new Medicare cuts | TheHill
> 
> ...


If it were possible this stunt would create veto-proof majorities in both houses of congress this year.


----------



## percysunshine (Feb 22, 2014)

william the wie said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > This should go over well next November.
> ...



This has to be some sort of false flag double head fake politi-jitsu illusion or something.

It must be a trap. They are not that stupid.....are they?

.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 22, 2014)

if you have evidence to the contrary I'd like to see it.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 24, 2014)

of course obamcare is a way for employers to shift more cost to the employees and reduce their own burden.  Employer paid health benefits will soon be a thing of the past.  

Will You Be Hit by This Massive Obamacare Side Effect?


----------



## william the wie (Feb 24, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> of course obamcare is a way for employers to shift more cost to the employees and reduce their own burden.  Employer paid health benefits will soon be a thing of the past.
> 
> Will You Be Hit by This Massive Obamacare Side Effect?


Well technically it isn't a side effect of Obamacare, more like an undesirable outcome fully enabled by Ocare. "We were planning on doing this anyway." is probably true but with the don't blame Ocare rule?

Employers screwing over their employees and very carefully not blaming the program that is acting as the catalyst for the outcome not wanted by the voters? Wow!


----------



## RKMBrown (Feb 24, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> of course obamcare is a way for employers to shift more cost to the employees and reduce their own burden.  Employer paid health benefits will soon be a thing of the past.
> 
> Will You Be Hit by This Massive Obamacare Side Effect?



Technically they should not have to owe employees any benefits.  

When SS and medicare became federally managed programs, the writing was on the wall for non-professional employee pay and benefits.  The relationship between employer and employee, for non-professional jobs, was permanently severed.  

For non professional jobs, we would eventually become a socialist nation, where government sets the living wage rate and living benefits rate to a low bar previously unheard of for our country.  And the communists on the left rejoice in their self-imposed squalor.


----------



## Amelia (Feb 25, 2014)

Two-thirds of small businessworkers to see Obamacare premium hikes | The Daily Caller


----------



## william the wie (Feb 25, 2014)

Good find and this will add to the problems the Ds will have in the next two elections.


----------



## Antares (Feb 25, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Good find and this will add to the problems the Ds will have in the next two elections.



Only if the pubs man up and use it correctly.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 25, 2014)

Antares said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Good find and this will add to the problems the Ds will have in the next two elections.
> ...


I didn't say it would help the Rs just hurt the Ds.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 25, 2014)

The next shoe?  how many feet does this failed policy have?  a few dozen shoes have dropped already

The Next Shoe To Drop: Obamacare Will Increase The Cost Of Employer-Sponsored Insurance - Forbes

The Next Shoe To Drop: Obamacare Will Increase The Cost Of Employer-Sponsored Insurance


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 26, 2014)

Libs, you have to love them.  They will try to spin a turd into a rose.  So we signed up 4 million, never mind we cancelled the plans of 5 million, a net loss of 1 million.  but they still claim they are close to therir 7 million signed goal?   i wonder how many of the 4 million signed are part of the 5 million who lost benefits?  that puts them even further away from their target 

Obamacare Jumps 33 Percent to 4 Million Sign Ups - Yahoo Finance


----------



## william the wie (Feb 26, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Libs, you have to love them.  They will try to spin a turd into a rose.  So we signed up 4 million, never mind we cancelled the plans of 5 million, a net loss of 1 million.  but they still claim they are close to therir 7 million signed goal?   i wonder how many of the 4 million signed are part of the 5 million who lost benefits?  that puts them even further away from their target
> 
> Obamacare Jumps 33 Percent to 4 Million Sign Ups - Yahoo Finance


Hindenberg.gov also does not cover cancellations, working parttime at two different subsidiaries of the same company such as Yum! foods, Darden or a long list of other companies and numerous other loopholes. Again we will not know the facts until we see the quarterly reports by the insurance companies.


----------



## MeBelle (Feb 26, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Libs, you have to love them.  They will try to spin a turd into a rose.  So we signed up 4 million, never mind we cancelled the plans of 5 million, a net loss of 1 million.  but they still claim they are close to therir 7 million signed goal?   i wonder how many of the 4 million signed are part of the 5 million who lost benefits?  that puts them even further away from their target
> 
> Obamacare Jumps 33 Percent to 4 Million Sign Ups - Yahoo Finance



Very clever wording!  


~Roughly 4 million Americans have signed up for health coverage on the new insurance exchanges, the Obama administration said Tuesday. Thats still about 3 million short of the White Houses goal of enrolling 7 million people before the March 31 deadline.~

~These latest figures do not indicate how many of these people have actually paid for their plans. The figures simply reflect who has selected a policy. One CNN survey of insurers conducted last month found that one in five people had not paid their premiums. Whether that is accurate is not clear.~

~Another important question the figures do not answer is how many of the new enrollees previously lacked health coverage. This is important since a key goal of the healthcare reform law was to extend access to coverage for the millions of uninsured Americans.~


----------



## emilynghiem (Feb 26, 2014)

I look forward to the day when people agree to treat the ACA mandates as voluntary
for whoever chooses to participate and support that program. So whoever signed up,
whoever voted and supported this bill, those are responsible for making it work.

those who didn't agree to the terms, or sign up for this,
we have equal right and freedom as before to go fund and run other means of
supporting health care on a sustainable basis using free choice we believe in as well.

When is that realization going to hit that giving people free choice will always work better? Because people will invest in the programs they WANT to succeed.



MeBelle60 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Libs, you have to love them.  They will try to spin a turd into a rose.  So we signed up 4 million, never mind we cancelled the plans of 5 million, a net loss of 1 million.  but they still claim they are close to therir 7 million signed goal?   i wonder how many of the 4 million signed are part of the 5 million who lost benefits?  that puts them even further away from their target
> ...


----------



## william the wie (Feb 26, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> I look forward to the day when people agree to treat the ACA mandates as voluntary
> for whoever chooses to participate and support that program. So whoever signed up,
> whoever voted and supported this bill, those are responsible for making it work.
> 
> ...


No offense but dream on and that includes assumptions of efficacy if you can afford an exchange policy.


----------



## asterism (Feb 26, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Libs, you have to love them.  They will try to spin a turd into a rose.  So we signed up 4 million, never mind we cancelled the plans of 5 million, a net loss of 1 million.  but they still claim they are close to therir 7 million signed goal?   i wonder how many of the 4 million signed are part of the 5 million who lost benefits?  that puts them even further away from their target
> 
> Obamacare Jumps 33 Percent to 4 Million Sign Ups - Yahoo Finance



Those are people who signed up for a plan.  Those are not people currently covered by the Affordable Care Act.

I've signed up for 2 plans myself.  I haven't paid for either of them because my current plan is better than both of them.  I've had to sign one client up for 5 plans because the healthcare.gov data didn't make it to the insurance companies so they were never enrolled even though they paid (they were eventually refunded).  It took 7 tries for another client because the income verification module kept crashing last week.  We finally got one session where we completed the qualification process and made to payment of premium but on Monday there were 7 separate applications with 7 different insurance company record IDs, and only 1 policy actually issued.  That counts as 7 "sign ups" in the ACA reporting though.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Feb 26, 2014)

> The Obama administration is running into a somewhat surprising roadblock in its final push to get Americans enrolled in Obamacare ahead of the March 31 deadline: The nation's uninsured are increasingly suspicious of the law.
> 
> Fifty-six percent of those who identified as uninsured in a new poll conducted in February by the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, a research institution, had an unfavorable view of the health care reform law, compared to just 22 percent who said they view it favorably. The uninsured now see Obamacare less favorably than they did when the enrollment period began in October. As recently as September, more uninsured approved of the law than disapproved.
> 
> The survey results illustrate just how deep a hole the Obama administration is in when it comes to gaining the support of those the law is most intended to benefit. Indeed, the new findings show the uninsured feel worse about the law than the public at large. Thirty-five percent of Americans approve of Obamacare and 47 percent are against it, according to Kaiser.





The Uninsured Are Turning Against Obamacare. That's A Problem


----------



## asterism (Feb 26, 2014)

william the wie said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > I look forward to the day when people agree to treat the ACA mandates as voluntary
> ...



Due to the structure of the federal subsidies, everyone can afford a policy on the exchange.  The system will eventually break due to that structure, but EVERYONE can afford a policy currently.  The problem is that for those who can afford to pay it costs so much more for so  much less actual insurance.

But the fix is in - Medicare for All is coming.  That's the goal, that's the plan, and there's no turning back now.  It's a shame, Medicare is on the verge of collapse and that's one of the reasons the compromise between the current system and single-payer will be expanding Medicare Advantage to buy some time.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 26, 2014)

asterism said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > emilynghiem said:
> ...


Could you do a thread on that? While I like most of the people on USMB my goal here is to learn things. For just talking Panera's or Starbucks is the right place to go.


----------



## asterism (Feb 26, 2014)

william the wie said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



Do a thread on what?  That everyone can afford healthcare insurance currently?


----------



## william the wie (Feb 26, 2014)

The exact legal restrictions on how exchange policies can be written. For example exchange policies are required to take all pre-existing conditions but are not required to cover the specialists and drugs needed to treat any specific pre-existing conditions and that is hard to query about on the exchanges. Since those omissions are the result of state or federal employees recourse is quite dicey. Ocare compliant non-exchange policies have no such figleaf in the courts. I was wondering what other such surprises await.


----------



## asterism (Feb 27, 2014)

william the wie said:


> The exact legal restrictions on how exchange policies can be written. For example exchange policies are required to take all pre-existing conditions but are not required to cover the specialists and drugs needed to treat any specific pre-existing conditions and that is hard to query about on the exchanges. Since those omissions are the result of state or federal employees recourse is quite dicey. Ocare compliant non-exchange policies have no such figleaf in the courts. I was wondering what other such surprises await.



Oh that's a very good point.  While rare for most people, in national policy it adds up to millions of negative situations.  Sure, mammograms for Lupus patients are "free" but the actual medications to treat Lupus?  Unaffordable for most.  But hey, at least they don't have to pay $60 to screen for a disease that'll likely kill them after they have already died from Lupus so that's a good thing right?


----------



## Politico (Feb 27, 2014)

asterism said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > emilynghiem said:
> ...



Well that's BS.


----------



## william the wie (Feb 27, 2014)

asterism said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > The exact legal restrictions on how exchange policies can be written. For example exchange policies are required to take all pre-existing conditions but are not required to cover the specialists and drugs needed to treat any specific pre-existing conditions and that is hard to query about on the exchanges. Since those omissions are the result of state or federal employees recourse is quite dicey. Ocare compliant non-exchange policies have no such figleaf in the courts. I was wondering what other such surprises await.
> ...


So, very true.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 27, 2014)

dblack said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > simo5656 said:
> ...



i thought obamacare was basically romneycare?


----------



## dblack (Feb 27, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Same basic thing, yeah. Except that it was the Democrats who signed off on it. Damnedest thing - we elect Democrats and get Republican legislation. We can't win for losing.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 27, 2014)

so the people who this was made for are rejecting it?   lol

The Uninsured Are Turning Against Obamacare. That's A Problem


----------



## dblack (Feb 27, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> so the people who this was made for are rejecting it?   lol



The insurance companies? Nah, I think they're ok with it.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 28, 2014)

how out of touch with reality is this guy?

Harry Reid calls ObamaCare victims liars | Human Events


----------



## william the wie (Feb 28, 2014)

You have noticed that this acting out has not been getting play on most news outlets?


----------



## RKMBrown (Feb 28, 2014)

dblack said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Not true at all.  The two are completely different.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 28, 2014)

Florida restaurant chain adds Obamacare surcharge to meal bills

priceless


----------



## william the wie (Feb 28, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Florida restaurant chain adds Obamacare surcharge to meal bills
> 
> priceless


This is one of the growing number of restaurants doing this but how did they calculate the PC? 1% seems inadequate.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 2, 2014)

LOL  more reasons its bad then people who have signed up.  what a legacy

11 Million Examples of Obamacare's Higher Costs (ESRX, WBMD)


----------



## william the wie (Mar 2, 2014)

Payment is not all. Those who pay less will generally get less service.


----------



## dblack (Mar 2, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



oh yeah... like night and day.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 3, 2014)

So even if you need it you don't like it?   I wonder if harry reid thinks they are liars too   lol






They're just not into Obamacare&#8212;even if they benefit

If you don't need Obamacare, you probably don't like it. But even if you need it, you still probably don't like it&#8212;or even care about it. 



Obamacare targets lack opinion on law, survey finds


----------



## Amelia (Mar 3, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> So even if you need it you don't like it?   I wonder if harry reid thinks they are liars too   lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...





That's our fault.   We were supposed to be willing to say,"Hey, it doesn't matter that Obama and the Democrats raped the democratic process -- we should all get on board now and help him sell this atrocity."  Then people would have loved it and would be more patient with the incompetence in the rollout.  

So sorry I wasn't willing to do that.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 3, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > So even if you need it you don't like it?   I wonder if harry reid thinks they are liars too   lol
> ...



when the statement is made, we'll just have to pass it to see what it's all about, due dilligence has not been done.   obamacare is a perfect example of what happens when government passes legislation without due dilligence.   unacceptable.  democrats owe the country financial restitution


----------



## Jroc (Mar 3, 2014)

> *For lawmakers, an O-Care escape option*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For lawmakers, an O-Care escape option | TheHill


----------



## william the wie (Mar 3, 2014)

This does not surprise me.


----------



## Jroc (Mar 5, 2014)

> March 03, 2014, 08:53 pm
> *New O-Care delay to help midterm Dems*
> 
> The Obama administration is set to announce another major delay in implementing the Affordable Care Act, easing election pressure on Democrats.
> ...



New O-Care delay to help midterm Dems | TheHill


----------



## Zoom-boing (Mar 5, 2014)

Jroc said:


> > March 03, 2014, 08:53 pm
> > *New O-Care delay to help midterm Dems*
> >
> > The Obama administration is set to announce another major delay in implementing the Affordable Care Act, easing election pressure on Democrats.
> ...



Like no one saw this coming.

They can run but they cannot hide.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Mar 5, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > > March 03, 2014, 08:53 pm
> ...



all good points to bring up during the election


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 5, 2014)

lol  and yet another thing that wasn't supposed to happen

The Inevitability of Obamacare for Illegal Aliens


----------



## william the wie (Mar 5, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> lol  and yet another thing that wasn't supposed to happen
> 
> The Inevitability of Obamacare for Illegal Aliens


Also in CA the MediCal payments may not be subject to ACA restrictions.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 5, 2014)

Jroc said:


> > March 03, 2014, 08:53 pm
> > *New O-Care delay to help midterm Dems*
> >
> > The Obama administration is set to announce another major delay in implementing the Affordable Care Act, easing election pressure on Democrats.
> ...



well, you know for sure they are sweating the midterms


----------



## Amelia (Mar 5, 2014)

Didn't they say on Monday that no new delays were in the queue?

Another Obamacare Delay - If you like your plan, you can keep it until 2016




> The Obama administration said Wednesday that insurers can wait until 2016 before canceling plans that don't comply with Obamacare.
> 
> The administration released a host of final regulations that, among other things, ease reporting requirements for businesses and allow insurers to keep selling individual policies that don't comply with the law's requirements. Those plans, which the White House first un-canceled in November, can now last until 2016 or, in some cases, 2017.





> Administration offiials denied any political motivation for the latest delay, although press materials about the changes specifically name-checked Democratic senators who are up for reelection this year and have pushed for Obamacare changes -- including Sens. Mark Warner, Jeanne Shaheen, Mary Landrieu and Mark Udall.





> The administration said it won't allow the government to lose money on the law's risk corridors -- a program Republicans have criticized as a "bailout for insurance companies."





> The new rules also formalize a delay in next year's open enrollment window, and extend that window by a month. Enrollment will begin Nov. 15 and run through Feb. 15. The delays push the beginning of the enrollment window -- when people will get a look at their premiums -- past the November midterms, and the extended window gives the administration more time to try to bring in more people.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 5, 2014)

This is getting humorous.


----------



## dblack (Mar 5, 2014)

Good news! Your abuse will be delayed! Are we lucky to have such compassionate leaders, or what?


----------



## Amelia (Mar 5, 2014)

It's more like, "Most of the people most affected by this will have found some way to make do by then, so at that point the media will have less interest than ever in covering our abuse of the democratic process and our shameless lying."


----------



## Listening (Mar 5, 2014)

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gmc11674620140305075100.jpg


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 6, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Didn't they say on Monday that no new delays were in the queue?
> 
> Another Obamacare Delay - If you like your plan, you can keep it until 2016
> 
> ...



so what is 2016 like an election year or something.  lol


----------



## william the wie (Mar 6, 2014)

This is getting even more silly.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 7, 2014)

lol,  well it took him long enough

Even Obama seems to be losing faith in Obamacare | The Exchange - Yahoo Finance


----------



## william the wie (Mar 7, 2014)

Effective repeal boy did that take me by surprise.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 9, 2014)

Obamacare May Be Failing the Uninsured - Yahoo Finance

geez, only 27 percent of the 4 million who have signed up for Obamacare were previously uninsured.  so like a million of the 38 million this was supposed to help are being helped?


----------



## william the wie (Mar 9, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Obamacare May Be Failing the Uninsured - Yahoo Finance
> 
> geez, only 27 percent of the 4 million who have signed up for Obamacare were previously uninsured.  so like a million of the 38 million this was supposed to help are being helped?


If that.


----------



## oreo (Mar 9, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare May Be Failing the Uninsured - Yahoo Finance
> ...



Then add in the 6 million to date "liked' policies that have been cancelled.  Estimates are if you add in spouses and children covered under those plans we're talking about another 12 to 14 million that Obamacare has added to the uninsured in this country.

So if you look at it in that light--Obamacare is in major red ink--on the enrollment side of the equation.  *Meaning there are more uninsured today--than prior to Obamacare.
*

With Obama deferring clear into 2017-on new rules--(that are a daily occurrence) -it appears he is running from his own legacy piece of legislation--

*PURPOSE OF OBAMACARE:*  To insure the uninsured   * EFFECT OF OBAMACARE: *uninsuring the insured


----------



## william the wie (Mar 10, 2014)

Great cartoon couldn't rep you.


----------



## Jroc (Mar 10, 2014)

Buyers remorse.. 




> *Union: Obamacare will slash wages by up to $5 an hour*
> 
> 
> A national union that represents 300,000 low-wage hospitality workers charges in a new report that Obamacare will slam wages, cut hours, limit access to health insurance and worsen the very &#8220;income equality&#8221; President Obama says he is campaigning to fix.
> ...


&#8221;


Union: Obamacare will slash wages by up to $5 an hour | WashingtonExaminer.com


----------



## william the wie (Mar 10, 2014)

Gee, if that's what his friends and supporters think about Obama I wonder what his enemies think?


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 11, 2014)

how many lies are these jokers going to be allowed to dump on us before we ride them out of office?

Justice Dept.: At Least 35% Of People Eligible For Obamacare's Medicaid Expansion Have Criminal Histories - Forbes


----------



## Amelia (Mar 11, 2014)

I guess I'm enough of a liberal that I don't see a problem with that.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 11, 2014)

What Was the Point of ObamaCare?


----------



## william the wie (Mar 11, 2014)

Amelia said:


> What Was the Point of ObamaCare?


To kill the poor? (I read your link.)


----------



## Amelia (Mar 12, 2014)

This New Video About ObamaCares War On Seniors Hits The Nail On The Head


----------



## MeBelle (Mar 12, 2014)

Amelia said:


> This New Video About ObamaCares War On Seniors Hits The Nail On The Head


----------



## MeBelle (Mar 12, 2014)

OK-He doesn't really sing, he only hums.



Awkward: Dem Congressman Cant Handle Obamacare Question, Starts Singing Instead


----------



## Amelia (Mar 12, 2014)

lol


----------



## Amelia (Mar 12, 2014)

That sooo deserves to be a meme.  


doo doo do do do doo doo.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 12, 2014)

A few things to remember, there are at least five voting blocs on Ocare in about this order:

Expansion of Ocare.
Repeal of Ocare.
National reform of some type.
Make optional for individuals. 
Make optional for states.

Getting the repeal movement to embrace the optional for the states movement with the states deciding on optional for the individual is the only way to get rid of this turkey and no one is running on it. That being the case this mess will be with us for a while.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Mar 12, 2014)

william the wie said:


> A few things to remember, there are at least five voting blocs on Ocare in about this order:
> 
> Expansion of Ocare.
> Repeal of Ocare.
> ...



the prezbo ran around the country telling everyone 

that the cost of obamacare would be less then the monthly cost 

of your cell phone 

well now he is saying 

*&#8220;If you looked at their cable bill, their telephone, their cell phone bill&#8230; it may turn out that, it&#8217;s just they haven&#8217;t prioritized health care.&#8221;*

President: Choose Between Cable, Phone or Health Care | The LIBRE Initiative


----------



## william the wie (Mar 12, 2014)

jon_berzerk said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > A few things to remember, there are at least five voting blocs on Ocare in about this order:
> ...


I totally concur with your points but with Obama driving the blue states over a fiscal cliff by way of Obamacare with the consent if their voters my attitude is let the good times roll.


----------



## jon_berzerk (Mar 12, 2014)

william the wie said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



roll on


----------



## MaryL (Mar 12, 2014)

I actually went through  Obama&#8217;s affordable  health care  signup thingy. It was neither simple nor easy, as it suggests. You have to apply for Medicaid First and then BE denied, and it takes forever and a day, something nobody EVER told me. Anyone hear that before? Of course, most of you have insurance already. I still DO NOT have either affordable health care or anything else. I am getting bitter and confused here. I never voted for Obama, but , will give this &#8220;Affordable health&#8221; care thing a try, IF I  CAN. If they give me a chance. Does it matter?


----------



## Amelia (Mar 12, 2014)

Good luck, Mary.

I advised a couple of friends to check it out.  I hate how it came about, and all the lies, and all the ramifications, but since it's here I hope it can help you get the healthcare you need.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 14, 2014)

The Insiders: Sebelius happy talk makes it worse for Democrats


----------



## Antares (Mar 14, 2014)

MaryL said:


> I actually went through  Obamas affordable  health care  signup thingy. It was neither simple nor easy, as it suggests. You have to apply for Medicaid First and then BE denied, and it takes forever and a day, something nobody EVER told me. Anyone hear that before? Of course, most of you have insurance already. I still DO NOT have either affordable health care or anything else. I am getting bitter and confused here. I never voted for Obama, but , will give this Affordable health care thing a try, IF I  CAN. If they give me a chance. Does it matter?



The medicare thing happens all of the time, it revolves around your income. If it was a certain number it will automatically refer you there. You can still purchase your insurance ,but it will be at full price.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 14, 2014)

Obama: You Can't Really Keep Your Doctor


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 14, 2014)

I will have one mean drunk when they hammer home the final nail in the coffin of Obamacare. 

-Geaux


----------



## william the wie (Mar 14, 2014)

Geaux4it said:


> I will have one mean drunk when they hammer home the final nail in the coffin of Obamacare.
> 
> -Geaux


It will exist in name for decades after it has died in fact.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 15, 2014)

the greatest country in the world and this is what we settle for as our national healthcare plan?  how far have we sunk that this is acceptable.  what's worse is we do accept it.  

Obamacare's problem: You can't fix stupid


----------



## Amelia (Mar 15, 2014)

ObamaCare: The impossible enforcement of an unworkable law | Fox News


----------



## Amelia (Mar 15, 2014)

Dana Milbank: Obama has a problem connecting to young on health care - The Washington Post

Barack Obama, Political Wrecking Ball « Commentary Magazine


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 16, 2014)

millions of people make their living working part time or supplement their income with part time work.   the Obama administration has done nothing to help created full time jobs as promised.  people have no other choice.   but now obamcare dictates if you work over 28 hrs a week you have to be provided healthcare.   so now millions of struggling americans are having their part time hours cut.  add them to the list of americans who will be seeking entitlements.     

libs complain WalMart is guilty of creating a situation where americans don't make enough and have to turn to the government for assistance and healthcare.   Well obamacare just magnified that to include every retailer, every fast food chain, every part time worker in America.

are libs complaining yet?


----------



## Jroc (Mar 16, 2014)

*Maine Hospital Facing $27 Million In Costs Due To Obamacare
*

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iKKBj1KyVs"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iKKBj1KyVs[/ame]


----------



## Truthmatters (Mar 16, 2014)

you guys are never correct in your predictions?

did robmoney win by five?


did Sadam have WMDs?


----------



## bedowin62 (Mar 16, 2014)

Truthmatters said:


> you guys are never correct in your predictions?
> 
> did robmoney win by five?
> 
> ...






Saddam did have WMDs you dolt; we found some of them; the rest are most likely in Syria

now what has obama "changed" that isnt WORSE?


----------



## william the wie (Mar 16, 2014)

Jroc said:


> *Maine Hospital Facing $27 Million In Costs Due To Obamacare
> *
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iKKBj1KyVs


 I don't have the numbers for this area mentioned in the video and it is not an open market but generally a hospital bed costs more than a cab medallion in the same city/county and I am not talking about frame and mattress. That is a market that is going to crash big time over the next three years. 

You need to have people in the Business and watch out for presidential net approval rating. People outside the business can't bid and somewhere between Obama hitting -20 and -40 net approval the price drop will stop hard. However that will be something to look at if you can use the money.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 16, 2014)

We're young, but we aren't stupid | Las Vegas Review-Journal


----------



## MeBelle (Mar 16, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > *Maine Hospital Facing $27 Million In Costs Due To Obamacare
> ...



Edit later...need to get on different PC grrr

Federal Cuts Leave Maine Hospitals Facing Deficits


----------



## william the wie (Mar 16, 2014)

This is not a meltdown risk. If Ocare knocks out 2/3s of all hospital total losses should be less than $5T.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 18, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/obamacare-subscribers-beware-high-deductibles-100000875.html

Well now that you have healthcare, you can't afford to use it.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 18, 2014)

My friend who had good insurance before and then was cancelled because of O-care made sure she got new insurance whatever the cost coz her dad taught her never to be without.

Now she's facing her first serious medical problem under her new plan and is floored by the expenses she faces.    

She says maybe going deaf won't be so bad after all.


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 18, 2014)

My insurance premium went up 76% to cover the jerkoffs who lie and can't pay

-Geaux


----------



## Jroc (Mar 20, 2014)

> *Premiums rising faster than eight years before Obamacare COMBINED*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Premiums rising faster than eight years before Obamacare | The Daily Caller


----------



## william the wie (Mar 20, 2014)

This should be fun with more rate increases coming.


----------



## MeBelle (Mar 23, 2014)

a few examples of ideas that some Republicans have proposed:



Top-down control is not the way to fix healthcare. Americans should be given more choices in choosing plans and shopping for services. More options and more competition mean lower prices, which in turn means greater access.

So first, Republicans have long proposed allowing consumers to purchase healthcare across state lines, just as they can purchase almost any other good or service. Your healthcare choices shouldn't be limited by the state you happen to live in. If there's a good plan available in Wisconsin, someone in Florida should be able to buy it, too.

Second, we could allow small businesses to pool together to negotiate lower insurance rates for their employees. Instead of sticking them with expensive mandates and regulations from Washington, why don't we make it cheaper for small businesses to give their workers health coverage?

Third, we've got to stop the frivolous lawsuits that drive up costs. We need tort reform. This could include putting a cap on non-economic damages and creating specialized health courts.

A fourth idea that some have proposed would expand the allowable expenses for health savings accounts. That way, consumers can pay for the services and insurance they need  rather than the ones the government thinks they need.

Fifth, others suggest we restructure the tax code so that Americans buying individual plans get tax deductions, putting them on a more level playing field with those who receive health insurance from their employers.

Sixth, we could protect prices for individuals with pre-existing conditions who maintain continuous coverage. This way, people aren't subject to unexpected rate hikes and they can have some degree of predictability. It also encourages personal responsibility and reduces the likelihood that people will only buy insurance when they're sick.




RNC Chairman: Obamacare still stinks


----------



## jon_berzerk (Mar 23, 2014)

william the wie said:


> This should be fun with more rate increases coming.



yup and quarterly filers who opted out of obamacares 

are paying the tax


----------



## dblack (Mar 23, 2014)

MeBelle60 said:


> a few examples of ideas that some Republicans have proposed:
> 
> 
> 
> Top-down control is not the way to fix healthcare. Americans should be given more choices in choosing plans and shopping for services.



"Choice" is, essentially, like "Freedom". It's starts out, by default, in infinite quantity. It becomes limited by government, and other thugs, placing arbitrary limits on what we are allowed to 'choose'. All that needs to be done to "give Americans more choices" is for government to stop taking those choices away.


----------



## dblack (Mar 23, 2014)

jon_berzerk said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > This should be fun with more rate increases coming.
> ...



Only if they're dumb enough to set themselves up for a refund. Our younger generation may be apathetic, but they're not stupid. The silliness of using income tax withholding as a de facto savings account will come to a screeching halt for anyone who doesn't want to "tithe" to the insurance industry. Those people will be, effectively, opting out of ACA.

This is more or less the game they played getting us all to accept the idea of mandated auto insurance. I think the insurance industry is thinking that if they soft pedal it initially, their targets will keep quiet - happy with the ability to surreptitiously opt out. They'll be willing to lose revenue for a few years while the concrete sets up. Once it does, they'll use mainstream anger ("Why should they get by without paying in??") to justify harsher and harsher penalties. Just like they've done with the mandated auto insurance. To the point that, eventually, people will be going to jail for refusing to pay Aetna.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 23, 2014)

I think you are overestimating the success of Obamacare electorally.


----------



## Jroc (Mar 24, 2014)

> *Fourth Anniversary of Obamacare Brings Billions in Costs to Economy*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fourth Anniversary of Obamacare Brings Billions in Costs to Economy | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 24, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/obamacare-plans-bring-hefty-fees-certain-drugs-154823920.html


a friend of mine is now on obamacare.  he was just prescribed a new drug  for advanced stages of cirrosis of the liver.  he was trilled about it because it will keep him alive.    he's not so thrilled that it will cost him $85,000 a year to stay alive.


----------



## dblack (Mar 24, 2014)

william the wie said:


> I think you are overestimating the success of Obamacare electorally.



I hope so. But people tend to forget rather quickly. If they can keep it on the books for another year or two, I think it will stick. Then they'll start tightening the screws.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 25, 2014)

4 reasons ObamaCare premiums will rise next year - The Week

what is already not affordable for many will become even less affordable


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 25, 2014)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-reportedly-sounds-ready-174042478.html

What is that little thing libs love to say?  Well SCOTUS says.....


----------



## william the wie (Mar 25, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> 4 reasons ObamaCare premiums will rise next year - The Week
> 
> what is already not affordable for many will become even less affordable


For nubes to the thread premiums for next year have to be applied for this year prior to the election.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 25, 2014)

dblack said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > I think you are overestimating the success of Obamacare electorally.
> ...


 the name will stick and much of the substance in states with their own exchanges for up to 16 years. However Ocare is on a collision course with underfunded state and local pensions.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 25, 2014)

looks like in the end, no one will get to keep their healthcare plans.    I sat it is up to us to ensure no democrat keeps their job.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-spells-end-employer-based-225500269.html


----------



## william the wie (Mar 25, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> looks like in the end, no one will get to keep their healthcare plans.    I sat it is up to us to ensure no democrat keeps their job.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-spells-end-employer-based-225500269.html


This is no surprise.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 25, 2014)

Total Number of Minutes Covering ObamaCare is Embarrassingly Low for NBC, ABC, and CBS


----------



## syrenn (Mar 25, 2014)

Amelia said:


> My friend who had good insurance before and then was cancelled because of O-care made sure she got new insurance whatever the cost coz her dad taught her never to be without.
> 
> Now she's facing her first serious medical problem under her new plan and is floored by the expenses she faces.
> 
> She says maybe going deaf won't be so bad after all.



Here is another good one...

my sister had a brain tumor removed which had wrapped itself around her optic nerve at the beginning of the year....  Her care from here on is going to be extensive. 

Her husband changed jobs and along with that, their insurance......  so hello obamacare and you cant be denied coverage for pre existing conditions...

well well well... the loop hole to that is ....sure they will accept you and not deny you coverage.....but they will cover your for almost nothing in regards to that condition... to bad so sad...it was a pre existing condition.  The idea is ...they will cover a small fraction but not all or most of it.

and.... imagine that.... they wont cover the drugs she is taking either.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 25, 2014)

???????

I knew about the drugs.

But not actually covering the preexisting condition??????


----------



## william the wie (Mar 25, 2014)

syrenn said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > My friend who had good insurance before and then was cancelled because of O-care made sure she got new insurance whatever the cost coz her dad taught her never to be without.
> ...


I hope she is not in CA reimbursement was originally set for tonsilectomy at $120, which hopefully has changed.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 25, 2014)

Amelia said:


> ???????
> 
> I knew about the drugs.
> 
> But not actually covering the preexisting condition??????


Coverage is required, necessary specialists and drugs not necessarily. The body count by election day could easily keep the GOP golden through 2020.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 26, 2014)




----------



## syrenn (Mar 26, 2014)

Amelia said:


> ???????
> 
> I knew about the drugs.
> 
> But not actually covering the preexisting condition??????




this is what she is telling me......  

they did not deny her acceptance to the plan ie... being covered and not being denied for "pre existing" health issues.  They are not going to cover the drugs she needs, the psychical therapy for her vision, surgery to correct or any further surgeries secondary to the original cancer.

i am just.... amazed. So much for not being "denied" for preexisting conditions. You are not "denied" acceptance to a plan......you are just not .....covered. Or in her case.... covered by just a miniscule amount so they can claim they are "covering" her preexisting condition.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 26, 2014)

I am sorry to hear of your loved one's troubles, Syrenn. 

Given the exact same circumstances and no passage of the ACA, would she be better off or worse off? Or....would there be no difference? 

Moving to a single payer, everyone covered for everything system would indeed be preferred. Maybe congress can pass further regulations on insurers so they cannot work the rules in such a manner moving forward?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Mar 26, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> looks like in the end, no one will get to keep their healthcare plans.    I sat it is up to us to ensure no democrat keeps their job.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-spells-end-employer-based-225500269.html



From the link:



> Emanuel calls the move an unintended



Oh please, not only was it intended it was on of the reasons for shoving the (un)aca through so hard in the first place.  



> The political pressure was so intense that the president was eventually driven to issue a rule change allowing insurers to continue offering non-ACA compliant policies, *which have since been extended through 2016*.



This I hadn't heard.  My brother's individual plan was cancelled then obama waved his magic wand and it was extended through June of this year.  I'll have to make sure he's aware that he can keep his 'old, non-compliant junk plan'  through 2016.  Of course, BC had already based their rates on policies being compliant so his rates have already doubled.  Doubt that will drop back down, maybe next year?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Mar 26, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> I am sorry to hear of your loved one's troubles, Syrenn.
> 
> Given the exact same circumstances and no passage of the ACA, would she be better off or worse off? Or....would there be no difference?
> 
> Moving to a single payer, everyone covered for everything system would indeed be preferred. Maybe congress can pass further regulations on insurers so they cannot work the rules in such a manner moving forward?



Why aren't you calling syrenn a liar about her story, like you have with everyone else who has shared?  Or are you beginning to realize that many, many, many people are getting royally screwed with this thing?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 26, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry to hear of your loved one's troubles, Syrenn.
> ...



Because I do not think she is lying. 

You, on the other hand, are.


----------



## MisterBeale (Mar 26, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> the greatest country in the world and this is what we settle for as our national healthcare plan?  how far have we sunk that this is acceptable.  what's worse is we do accept it.
> 
> Obamacare's problem: You can't fix stupid



This was a great quote;



> The universal individual mandate has always been the weakest operational and theoretical aspect of the ACA, so much so that Chief Justice John Roberts had to come up with the crazy idea of reclassifying the entire thing as a tax just to keep it alive. It's a ruling most Americans and Roberts himself will regret for decades to come.
> 
> Our Constitutionally guaranteed freedom in this country isn't just a slogan. It means the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail. The freedom to be smart, and the freedom to be stupid. And just because you can't fix stupid, it doesn't mean we should try to fix or amend freedom.



I always believed that the Chief Justice had ruled the way he did for the reasons he did because he was in it for the corporations.  IOW, he revealed himself to be a fascist.  

I was stunned that this nation had fought so hard during the 40's, sacrificed so many of its people to defeat fascism, only to turn around and make it a constitutional part of it's governing philosophy in 2012.  The tragedy and absurdity of it eludes me.

_Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power_
&#8213; Benito Mussolini


----------



## Zoom-boing (Mar 26, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



No, you don't.  I and all the others who have shared about people we know getting screwed is the truth.  What part do you think I'm lying about?  His policy getting cancelled, his rates going up, the extension to keep his old plan through 2016?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 26, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



All of it.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Mar 26, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



How was his policy _not _cancelled?  It wasn't (un)aca compliant (he didnt' have maternity and newborn coverage, pediatric coverage, drug rx coverage).  _By law_ insurance policies must now cover these plus 7 other "essential benefits".  His plan was non-compliant and by default was cancelled.  Even if the insurance company 'modified' his old plan to include the ten essential benefits, his old plan would not exist.  Don't know what part of this you refuse to understand.

His premium doubled because the new plan now includes all those essential benefits mandated by the (un)aca.  It's the law.  Did you think the insurance companies were just going to provide more coverage for the same price?

Apparently obama waved another magic wand and he can keep his old, non-compliant plan (you know, the plans that obama and the like keep calling junk plans) through 2016.  But insurance being what it is, prices were set ages ago based on the (un)aca so he has his old plan but is paying more for it.

Many are getting screwed.  But please do continue to sit in your corner of denial like a petulant four year old, stomping your foot and calling people liars.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 26, 2014)

why do deomocrats hate americans?  

http://news.yahoo.com/screw-mickey-kaus-213004663.html


----------



## william the wie (Mar 26, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> why do deomocrats hate americans?
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/screw-mickey-kaus-213004663.html


They're innumerate and ignorant?


----------



## syrenn (Mar 26, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> I am sorry to hear of your loved one's troubles, Syrenn.
> 
> Given the exact same circumstances and no passage of the ACA, would she be better off or worse off? Or....would there be no difference?
> 
> Moving to a single payer, everyone covered for everything system would indeed be preferred. Maybe congress can pass further regulations on insurers so they cannot work the rules in such a manner moving forward?



much better off if ACA had not been passed!!!  On the 400k sugery... they paid.... nothing. All of her meds were covered. 


she calls it her rat tail.... and ive got some wicked pics of it!


----------



## syrenn (Mar 26, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry to hear of your loved one's troubles, Syrenn.
> ...


right now... she is not my only horror story about omabacare.....  the more i am listening to people, the more people i talk to who deal with that abortion.... the worse the horror story gets......


----------



## william the wie (Mar 26, 2014)

syrenn said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


This will be a major problem for the Ds come November but expect the Ds to lose nearly as many seats to the far left as to the GOP in 2014 and 2016 combined. Their base is very unhappy with them.


----------



## Grandma (Mar 27, 2014)

Well, here's my ACA "horror" story:

The insurance wasn't compliant with the ACA requirements, so they upgraded. They increased some fees to protect their profits.

Our weekly premiums have gone up $1.50, or up $78 per year. Our deduction increased $1000 to $3000 from $2000.

However, our prescription copay is now counted towards the deduction, so the deductible's more like $80 less, or $1920 ($90 per month). Office visit copays are also counted, so there's another $100 off so the deductible is more like $1820. (Office copays used to be $40, now they're $20.)

All vaccines are free instead of the $15 - $45 we used to be charged. Hospital stays (room) are fully paid for, and all X-rays and scans are fully paid for. Most routune screenings are fully paid for now. Emergency room fees are waived if we're admitted to the hospital.




I can live with that.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 27, 2014)

syrenn said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry to hear of your loved one's troubles, Syrenn.
> ...



I am confused. I was under the impression that her husband changed jobs and that her condition was preexisting.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 27, 2014)

Someone should be arrested for this.  Reid, should be hung.   Obama care is the worst thought out, worst performing legislation ever written.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-taxpayers-hole-1-5-094500219.html


----------



## Antares (Mar 27, 2014)

syrenn said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > My friend who had good insurance before and then was cancelled because of O-care made sure she got new insurance whatever the cost coz her dad taught her never to be without.
> ...




Then the new Group insurance is not compliant and they were given another year to become so.

Were it me I would buy an individual plan at Market Price just to be covered.
ALL new individual policies will cover her from Day 1.


----------



## Antares (Mar 27, 2014)

william the wie said:


> This should be fun with more rate increases coming.



They will be large.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 27, 2014)

But will they be announced before the election?


----------



## Amelia (Mar 27, 2014)

william the wie said:


> But will they be announced before the election.




Obama hopes not. He did his best to help by pushing the open enrollment date back to Nov. 15.


----------



## Antares (Mar 27, 2014)

william the wie said:


> But will they be announced before the election?



Nope, the Law only requires 30 day written notice.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 27, 2014)

Antares said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > But will they be announced before the election?
> ...





30 day notice?

Before what?

If it's before the open enrollment period begins then the announcements would need to be made in October.


----------



## Antares (Mar 27, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



30 day notice to raise Premiums.
So they can send the notices the last week of November.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 27, 2014)

Antares said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...




But open-enrollment begins Nov. 15.  

They can raise premiums after people have enrolled?


----------



## Meister (Mar 27, 2014)

People aren't stupid regarding what's coming down the pipeline.  It won't make any difference whether it's before or after the election because the speculation will be running amok by the time the election rolls around.
Only the obama goons will be in a willing denial.


----------



## Antares (Mar 27, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Open enrollment will be for a January 1 effective date.....the new pricing will already be applied to those plans, but the increases to people who enrolled for 14 won't happen until then either.....


----------



## william the wie (Mar 27, 2014)

Antares said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...


That could get nasty.


----------



## Antares (Mar 27, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



I think they are planning to increase the subsidy amounts too but I have no proof of that.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 27, 2014)

Antares said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...


How can that get through the house and probably the senate too?


----------



## Antares (Mar 28, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



You are assuming he will suddenly decide to use the Constitutionally prescribed method to do things legally.

We have no reason to assume this.


----------



## syrenn (Mar 28, 2014)

Antares said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



yes...all plans will cover her. The loop hole is how much they cover. Paying 1% of the bill leaving her paying 99% of the bill..... is still covering her.  

That also does not go into or cover the issue with non generic and specialty drugs.


----------



## syrenn (Mar 28, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



his new insurance is considering her condition preexisting..... She had the tumor removed a month or so before the change of insurance._ The old _insurance paid the whole bill..... 

her after care (all the ACA crap) is what the new insurance is considering preexisting conditions.  Yes, they accepted her but will only cover about 1% of anything in regards to the tumor. Nice little loophole they have going......


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 28, 2014)

I would write to your state's insurance commissioner.


----------



## syrenn (Mar 28, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> I would write to your state's insurance commissioner.



It is compliant with obamacare.....   and THAT is the point.  She was in a much better position before she got caught in the kluge job.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 28, 2014)

I would still write your insurance commissioner. Something is not right. Why not get someone to look into it?


----------



## syrenn (Mar 28, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> I would still write your insurance commissioner. Something is not right. Why not get someone to look into it?



she and her husband would have to do that..... but i will make the suggestion to them.  

its just not right. A lot of people are getting screwed to the wall with this thing......  I personaly would have had no idea about any of this unless it was not happening to my sister and my best friend. I am getting horror stories from both of them. 

Granted, for people with nothing, no money, no income and will get all of it for free....this is a great deal. For just about everyone else......it is one fucked up deal.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 28, 2014)

syrenn said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I would still write your insurance commissioner. Something is not right. Why not get someone to look into it?
> ...


I disagree. Given Network size and MediCal reimbursement Covered California is shaping up as a disaster of epic proportions for everyone.


----------



## Antares (Mar 28, 2014)

syrenn said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > syrenn said:
> ...



Nope.

ALL compliant plans will cover her 100% after her out of pocket maximum is hit...this includes meds.

The federal mandate is 6350, if the plan isn't doing this it is not compliant.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 28, 2014)

Antares said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...




I'm pretty sure that's not the case.  I thought all bets were off with out-of-network care and with certain drugs.


----------



## Antares (Mar 28, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > syrenn said:
> ...



You can buy a plan from me today that is complaint...the moment you hit your out of pocket maximum in or out of network EVERYTHING is taken care of at 100%.

This is true of ALL compliant individual plans.


----------



## Antares (Mar 28, 2014)

*

Basic EPO
Customer Reviews: Not Yet Rated  


 Plan Type    EPO  
Metal Level   Bronze  
Office Visit for Primary Doctor 
Find Doctors   $60 for first 3 visits prior to deductible, then $60 after deductible  
Office Visit for Specialist   $70 Copay after deductible  
Office Visit for Other Practitioner (Nurse, Physician Assistant)  $60 Copay after deductible  
Annual Deductible   Individual: $5,000  
Separate Prescription Drugs Deductible   Medical Plan Deductible Applies  
Coinsurance   30%  
Retail Prescription Drugs   Generic Drugs: $19 Copay after deductible
Brand Name Drugs: $50 Copay after deductible
Non-Formulary Drugs: $75 Copay after deductible
Specialty Drugs: 30% Coinsurance after deductible  
Annual Out-of-Pocket Limit   Individual: $6,350
Includes deductible  
Lifetime Maximum   Unlimited *


*Annual Out-of-Pocket Limit   Individual: $6,350
Includes deductible *



Basic EPO - California Health Insurance - Blue Shield of California


----------



## Amelia (Mar 28, 2014)

Antares said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...





So even if they have to go to a specialist who is out of network, they won't owe more than $6350 out-of-pocket?


----------



## Antares (Mar 28, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...




Yes ma'am.....I posted a Cali plan on purpose.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 28, 2014)

Thanks, Gramps.


----------



## Amelia (Mar 28, 2014)

Antares said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...





I know you're a professional, but I simply don't believe that.  I'll try to keep an open mind about it though.  I hope it's true.


----------



## Antares (Mar 28, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



I need to be clear, she is on Group Plan and  I am talking of Individual plans.
As I said, if it were me I'd buy an individual plan and be happy with my 6350.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 28, 2014)

Antares said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



Something that she can, in fact, do......since preexisting conditions are no longer cause for denial.


----------



## Antares (Mar 28, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Precisely.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 28, 2014)

I swear this mess was designed to fail.  

How Much Does Obamacare Rip Off Young Adults? We Ran The Numbers. Here Are The Results. - Forbes


----------



## william the wie (Mar 28, 2014)

$12,700 out of pocket for a couple is not chump change but that is not the real problem. Specialists and drug companies are not required to accept Ocare. Demanding cash in advance and letting the patient worry about reimbursement has been the case for Medicare for 48 years and still is. $6,350 or $12,700 is plain BS. Obama does not have nor will he or his successors ever have the votes to change that. This especially applies to CA.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 29, 2014)

william the wie said:


> $12,700 out of pocket for a couple is not chump change but that is not the real problem. Specialists and drug companies are not required to accept Ocare. Demanding cash in advance and letting the patient worry about reimbursement has been the case for Medicare for 48 years and still is. $6,350 or $12,700 is plain BS. Obama does not have nor will he or his successors ever have the votes to change that. This especially applies to CA.



You get cancer......you want to drop $6350 or $63,500? 

Think.


----------



## Jroc (Mar 29, 2014)

*Obamacare Forcing Another Michigan Hospital To Cut Budget And Fire Staff*



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bdjcl_X5Nk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bdjcl_X5Nk[/ame]


----------



## asterism (Mar 29, 2014)

Antares said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Antares said:
> ...



Are you sure she can buy an individual plan on the exchange if she's eligible for group coverage?  I don't think she can.  BCBS may offer off exchange plans with the same limits but I don't know the California market.


----------



## Antares (Mar 29, 2014)

asterism said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



The only thing being eligible for Group coverage prohibits is the qualifying for a Subsidy to help pay premiums.

Everyone is free to purchase their own plans.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 29, 2014)

Jroc said:


> *Obamacare Forcing Another Michigan Hospital To Cut Budget And Fire Staff*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bdjcl_X5Nk


International and internal talent flight is a characteristic of any and all national healthcare systems at least initially. The real dangers for ACA include but are probably not limited to:

Non-exchange policies sinking in costs relative to exchange policies: less adverse selection.

Non-exchange MDs and prescriptions requiring full payment in advance for medicare/medicaid patients.

State insurance commissioners not permitting higher rates for exchange as opposed to non-exchange policies.  

Since internal talent flight is protected by case law involving the Okies and Arkies in the 1930s Doctors will accumulate in some states while medicare/medicaid will accumulate and since perversity tends toward the maximum at least one state will end up with both fewer healthcare workers and medicare/mediaid patients but I have no prediction on which one or even that there will be only one such case.


----------



## Antares (Mar 29, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > *Obamacare Forcing Another Michigan Hospital To Cut Budget And Fire Staff*
> ...



*Non-exchange policies sinking in costs relative to exchange policies: less adverse selection.*

On or off the plan is the same, the risk pools are the same....

*Non-exchange policies sinking in costs relative to exchange policies: less adverse selection.*

No, the plans all use the same plan code everyone goes into the plan together, on or off.

*Non-exchange MDs and prescriptions requiring full payment in advance for medicare/medicaid patients*

If they take Medicare they have agreed to the payment schedule, and the Supplement chosen determines the patients costs.
For example Plan F covers ALL out of pocket costs EXCEPT for Part D.

*State insurance commissioners not permitting higher rates for exchange as opposed to non-exchange policies.  *

Again same pool....rates must be uniform.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 29, 2014)

Antares said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Mayo does not work that way and there are huge hunks of the country with 2,1 or zero exchange providers like much of western MS. there are health insurers in western MS and the supreme court ruled back in the 1940s that insurance regulation was a states matter. The newer no mandates for states ruling means HHS cannot say squat about internal rate policies . The ACA may well have the unconstitutional provisions you cite but they cannot be enforced in court.


----------



## Spoonman (Mar 30, 2014)

it really is so bad they have to start lying about it.  what a shame.  when government cares more about protecting their own image, god forbid they lose a vote or two, than doing what is right for the people they are elected to serve, then its time for that government to be removed from office..

Sen. John Barrasso: White House Is 'Cooking The Books' On Obamacare Enrollment Numbers


----------



## Jroc (Mar 30, 2014)

*Cleveland Clinic CEO: 3/4 Of Obamacare Signups Will Face Higher Premiums*



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fxY0-JIyg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fxY0-JIyg[/ame]


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 31, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> it really is so bad they have to start lying about it.  what a shame.  when government cares more about protecting their own image, god forbid they lose a vote or two, than doing what is right for the people they are elected to serve, then its time for that government to be removed from office..
> 
> Sen. John Barrasso: White House Is 'Cooking The Books' On Obamacare Enrollment Numbers



Yes, the time is now to save America from further demise.

The elected officials no longer represent the people they support

Tar and feather time

-Geaux


----------



## Amelia (Mar 31, 2014)

My local friend who initially thought he would be unable to afford insurance because of how he was told the subsidy worked -- he was led to believe he would have to pay full price and then get the subsidy as a refund at the end of the year -- has found a plan which is practically free to him.  

Zero deductible. Very nice copays (e.g., $10 for office visit, $100 for emergency room, $5 for prescritpions).  But this young Wisconsinite can't sign up for it because he can't get the computer to recognize that he doesn't live in Alabama.   He's made many phone calls trying to get this fixed.  

Oops, I can't remember what he said he would pay per month in premiums.  It was either 0 or something low like $20.  




... If he finally gets signed up, I'm happy for him, but even though he's in the age range they want signing up, he's getting subsidized, not paying in or paying extremely little, so how is this affordable for the nation?

He says this same bargain he's getting is available to any local person who makes less than $28,000.  So now he's concerned about what will happen if he ever gets a raise to more than $28,000.  He says he'd suddenly owe $3000 if that happened.   He's anxious about needing to pay close attention and remembering to find a new policy if he gets close to that much income.

The per capita income for this area is quite a bit less  than  $28,000.  So it sounds like most would qualify for subsidies.  (So again, how is this affordable for the nation?)


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 31, 2014)

Amelia said:


> My local friend who initially thought he would be unable to afford insurance because of how he was told the subsidy worked -- he was led to believe he would have to pay full price and then get the subsidy as a refund at the end of the year -- has found a plan which is practically free to him.
> 
> Zero deductible. Very nice copays (e.g., $10 for office visit, $100 for emergency room, $5 for prescritpions).  But this young Wisconsinite can't sign up for it because he can't get the computer to recognize that he doesn't live in Alabama.   He's made many phone calls trying to get this fixed.
> 
> ...



It is a pay less now instead of pay more later type of deal. People with insurance that has preventive care included are healthier.....keeping OUR costs for health care down as a WHOLE.


----------



## asterism (Mar 31, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > My local friend who initially thought he would be unable to afford insurance because of how he was told the subsidy worked -- he was led to believe he would have to pay full price and then get the subsidy as a refund at the end of the year -- has found a plan which is practically free to him.
> ...



That's not true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html?_r=0


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 31, 2014)

asterism said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Show me the study that disputes what I said, please. That does not. 

And....do you find that to be sound logic? If so, we can really reduce our helth care costs if we just stop feeding people.....pollute all the water .....or give all of our kids loaded firearms for X-mas. 

Try harder.


----------



## asterism (Mar 31, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Healthier people live longer and die from more expensive diseases.  That's what the study says.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 31, 2014)

asterism said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



That is retarded and does not dispute the claim that I made.


----------



## william the wie (Mar 31, 2014)

asterism said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...


the preponderance of evidence indicates but does not prove that this is true across the board. Nootropics such as caffiene and more powerfully nicotene have the same effects at a reduced scale as meth or cocaine such as lower rates of dementia and less severe dementia among the fewer people who get it. EDTA, the chelation agent found in your mayonaise and usually your shampoo, when used theraputically does extend quantity and quality of life but since it does not reverse aging it also increases lifetime medical costs by a lot.


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 31, 2014)

Still relevant, even more perhaps

-Geaux

[youtube]DDdmtJCEWPA[/youtube]


----------



## Jroc (Apr 1, 2014)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC4wDMu3gyc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC4wDMu3gyc[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Apr 3, 2014)

A person died because Obama caused her affordable and reliable insurance to be disrupted and she found herself in a state of uncertainty which caused her to put off seeking medical care which turned out to be vital.

.... and PolitiFact's response is to award a Pants On Fire to the person who helped the story get publicity.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...coulter/ann-coulter-says-friends-sister-died/


----------



## MeBelle (Apr 3, 2014)

Amelia said:


> A person died because Obama caused her affordable and reliable insurance to be disrupted and she found herself in a state of uncertainty which caused her to put off seeking medical care which turned out to be vital.
> 
> .... and PolitiFact's response is to award a Pants On Fire to the person who helped the story get publicity.
> 
> Ann Coulter says a friend's sister "died from Obamacare" because Blue Shield of California left | PunditFact



Blue Shield of California could no longer offer some health insurance plans because they did not include "essential health benefits" required by the Affordable Care Act.

These plans could not be grandfathered in under the new law. Blue Shield of California sent letters to 119,000 customers in September notifying them their current plans would end "but we can still have you covered in 2014." PunditFact obtained a sample cancellation letter from the company.

The letter explained Blue Shield would offer new plans that include the minimum health benefits required by the health care law, such as emergency services, prescription drugs and preventive care.

If a customer took no action after reading the letter, he or she would be automatically enrolled into a new plan recommended by Blue Shield. This was meant "to ensure that no one experienced a lapse in coverage," said spokeswoman Mia Campitelli.

*The letters went to 57 percent of the insurers individual market customers*, she said. For two-thirds of the people who lost their plan, the *recommended option was more expensive,* the Los Angeles Times reported.

~~~~
Talk about semantics...  "completely just pulled out of California"

Or maybe she lived here:

Blue Shield quits Monterey County for Obamacare coverage


----------



## Antares (Apr 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



*It is a pay less now instead of pay more later type of deal. People with insurance that has preventive care included are healthier.....keeping OUR costs for health care down as a WHOLE.*

Yeah, no.
Prove your assertion first.


----------



## Geaux4it (Apr 3, 2014)

Now that Michigan has become the 34th state to demand a Constitutional Convention we can band together and use the resulting constitution to  terminate Obamacare

-Geaux


----------



## Jroc (Apr 3, 2014)

Compassionate liberals attack this women



> *Mother of Five: Obamacare Jeopardizing My Family&#8217;s Financial Future
> Getting hate mail, called &#8216;lying bitch&#8217; by Obamacare supporters*
> 
> 
> ...



Mother of Five: Obamacare Jeopardizing My Family?s Financial Future | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## Amelia (Apr 3, 2014)

Well obviously she is lying.  Harry Reid said so.


----------



## Grandma (Apr 3, 2014)

Amelia said:


> A person died because Obama caused her affordable and reliable insurance to be disrupted and she found herself in a state of uncertainty which caused her to put off seeking medical care which turned out to be vital.
> 
> .... and PolitiFact's response is to award a Pants On Fire to the person who helped the story get publicity.
> 
> http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...coulter/ann-coulter-says-friends-sister-died/





> Blue Shield did not pull out of California, and the company did not leave people without insurance. In fact, customers were allowed to keep their existing insurance plans through March. If the basic facts of Coulters story are accurate, the woman in question elected to drop insurance coverage.



So Coultergeist lied. The woman did not die from "Obamacare."


----------



## Amelia (Apr 3, 2014)

If she still had  the reliable and affordable insurance which Obama promised she could keep "period", she would have felt comfortable making a timely visit to the doctor.

The result of the ACA was to upend her insurance situation and make her uncertain of what to do at the critical moment of her life, which turned out to be the end of her life, which needn't have happened if Obama didn't think he knew more about what she needed than she did.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 3, 2014)

Covered California has one of the lowest reimbursement rates and one of the most narrow networks in the country. Therefore examples from there no matter how well documented tend to be outliers. CA is the state most likely to collapse due to Obamacare and by a massive margin. No one in their right mind signs up through that exchange.


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 4, 2014)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/coming-obamacare-shock-170-million-091500303.html

the old bait and switch

That doesn&#8217;t include additional price increases from insurers attempting to cover bad bets in their 2014 premium rates after the first round of Obamacare. "I do think that it's likely premium rate shocks are coming,&#8221; CareFirst BlueCross BlueShield CEO Chet Burrell told Reuters. &#8220;I think they begin to make themselves at least partially known in 2015 and fully known in 2016.&#8221; The consensus is that premiums will rise by double-digit percentages next year from their already-inflated levels for 2014 coverage.


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 4, 2014)

and another point to consider

Many may choose to give up on offering health insurance at all. The data from HHS after the passage of Obamacare showed that the Obama administration expected as many as 93 million Americans to be thrown out of their existing coverage, with employers opting to either scale down or get out, paying the fine instead. 

Either way, the ACA imposes massive costs on employers, whether those come in the form of fines, higher premiums, red tape, or a combination of all three. Businesses that have new and massive costs imposed on them by regulatory changes no longer can use that capital for investment, risk-taking, and expansion. That means fewer new jobs for Americans, and fewer opportunities to move up the economic ladder as well.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 4, 2014)

AP: Health insurance isn't a year-round thing anymore




> Here's more fallout from the health care law: Until now, customers could walk into an insurance office or go online to buy standard health care coverage any time of year. Not anymore.
> 
> Many people who didn't sign up during the government's open enrollment period that ended Monday will soon find it difficult or impossible to get insured this year, even if they go directly to a private company and money is no object. For some it's already too late.
> 
> ...


----------



## prj (Apr 5, 2014)

I'm not an obamacare fan, but that article is misleading.  

Outside of the normal enrollment period people can buy short term health plans that will get them through to the next enrollment period which is in November.


----------



## Antares (Apr 5, 2014)

prj said:


> I'm not an obamacare fan, but that article is misleading.
> 
> Outside of the normal enrollment period people can buy short term health plans that will get them through to the next enrollment period which is in November.



But those plans will not keep them from incurring the penalty.


----------



## Jroc (Apr 5, 2014)

*Californians Upset Over Lack Of Doctors Under Obamacare*


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCpHpd4WXKg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCpHpd4WXKg[/ame]


----------



## Amelia (Apr 5, 2014)

prj said:


> I'm not an obamacare fan, but that article is misleading.
> 
> Outside of the normal enrollment period people can buy short term health plans that will get them through to the next enrollment period which is in November.




That's the theory.  How well is that going to work out in practice?  

Not looking good.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Apr 5, 2014)

This train wreck just keeps on wreckin'. 

Amazing!


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 5, 2014)

75 years from now, Republicans will still be predicting an implosion any day now

Just lke they do for Social Security


----------



## Listening (Apr 5, 2014)

75 Years from now, Obama will be the clear winner of any "worst president in history" award.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 5, 2014)

I don't know.  Maybe history will remember him kindly.  History is written by the victors.  With their lock on the mainstream media, their embrace of propaganda, their scientific study of how to micromanipulate people according to demographics, maybe Obama and the other Democrats' dirty games will win the day.  

All I know is what I see now.   Maybe the truth will die with us.


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 5, 2014)

Listening said:


> 75 Years from now, Obama will be the clear winner of any "worst president in history" award.



I'm expecting a monument on the National Mall

Want to bet I am closer to history than you are?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Apr 5, 2014)

Amelia said:


> I don't know.  Maybe history will remember him kindly.  History is written by the victors.  With their lock on the mainstream media, their embrace of propaganda, their scientific study of how to micromanipulate people according to demographics, maybe Obama and the other Democrats' dirty games will win the day.
> 
> All I know is what I see now.   Maybe the truth will die with us.



A strong woman.....but a sad victim.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 5, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know.  Maybe history will remember him kindly.  History is written by the victors.  With their lock on the mainstream media, their embrace of propaganda, their scientific study of how to micromanipulate people according to demographics, maybe Obama and the other Democrats' dirty games will win the day.
> ...




Me sad?

Yes, you are correct.


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 5, 2014)

50 years from now, your employers will no longer offer health insurance

All insurance will be through Obamacare


----------



## Listening (Apr 6, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> 50 years from now, your employers will no longer offer health insurance
> 
> All insurance will be through Obamacare



50 years from now, there won't be any employers.

Not if Obamacare is still around.

Get a clue moron.


----------



## Listening (Apr 6, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > 75 Years from now, Obama will be the clear winner of any "worst president in history" award.
> ...



If he gets a monument it will look similar to the thing I sit on whenever my bowels are needing a release.


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 6, 2014)

Listening said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 50 years from now, your employers will no longer offer health insurance
> ...



OMG. 

Fear Mongering!


----------



## Rozman (Apr 6, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> 50 years from now, your employers will no longer offer health insurance
> 
> All insurance will be through Obamacare



And some government lackey will make the decision whether you
get to see a specialist or not.


----------



## Antares (Apr 6, 2014)

There will be no monument.

This man will go down as a pariah, unbelievably he is actually worse than Jimmy Carter.

Unlike Jimmy Carter Barak dislikes this Nation as founded and people are beginning to notice it.


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 6, 2014)

Antares said:


> There will be no monument.
> 
> This man will go down as a pariah, unbelievably he is actually worse than Jimmy Carter.
> 
> Unlike Jimmy Carter Barak dislikes this Nation as founded and people are beginning to notice it.



Yea...yea

The President hates America......it is you guys who will go down in history for trying to destroy America


----------



## Antares (Apr 6, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Antares said:
> 
> 
> > There will be no monument.
> ...



He hates it as founded, just because you don't know shit about his background in no way excuses your ignorance.

It is ALL out there to see, people like you are just to proud to admit your mistake.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 6, 2014)

Ocare will be around 50 years from now. Every political disaster leaves some debris.


----------



## Listening (Apr 6, 2014)

Antares said:


> There will be no monument.
> 
> This man will go down as a pariah, unbelievably he is actually worse than Jimmy Carter.
> 
> Unlike Jimmy Carter Barak dislikes this Nation as founded and people are beginning to notice it.



Maybe there will be just a big turd with Obama's smile.

They'll leave fresh horse crap around to stink up the area around the monument...just to drive home the point.


----------



## jillian (Apr 6, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



he has a double digit IQ and a 5th grade education. you expect something different?


----------



## Listening (Apr 6, 2014)

jillian said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Please provide your support for these assertions or admit the liar you are.

You have documentation of my education ?  I'll be waiting.

Liar.


----------



## Meister (Apr 6, 2014)

jillian said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



I don't think you should be the one talking about anybody's IQ or education, darlin'.


----------



## Listening (Apr 6, 2014)

Meister said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I noticed she's been silent on this thread since being challenged.


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 8, 2014)

is tihs really what we envisioned when we were told we finally had healthcare reform?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/health-insurance-14-5-million-100000231.html


----------



## Jroc (Apr 8, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> is tihs really what we envisioned when we were told we finally had healthcare reform?
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/health-insurance-14-5-million-100000231.html



Obama and the Democrats envisioned a complete government take over of our Healthcare system Obamacare is a means to that end.


----------



## emilynghiem (Apr 8, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> 50 years from now, your employers will no longer offer health insurance
> 
> All insurance will be through Obamacare



Dear RW: Don't forget to factor in the global impact that spiritual healing will have on reform when it is medically proven and public knowledge that most physical, mental and criminal illness can be prevented, cured or at least reduced to manageable levels.

If the liberal Democrats really want to cover health care for all,
it would be good to cure people of cancer and criminal illness instead of placating symptoms.

We could quit wasting billions on the death penalty that doesn't cure the cause of criminal sickness, and focus more resources on prevention, therapy, early intervention and cure.

Oh wait, that would give power and control back to the States.
My bad.

Obama only wants to concentrate power federally, since the poor voters they depend on rely on that model of government, not solve problems effectively per State which relies on training people to be legally and financially independent.

That's the conservatives who believe in States and people having representation and responsibility without relying on govt. And who believe in holding criminals responsible instead of paying all their costs without consequences.

Sorry never mind! What was I thinking. I thought Democrats really want to replace the death penalty with a better system but apparently they only care to get their candidates elected on whatever sounds good in the media. And paying for health care by holding criminals accountable to paying back costs to taxpayers just makes too much sense.
It sounds conservative, so they couldn't demonize conservatives by proving them right.


----------



## Antares (Apr 8, 2014)

jillian said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



This was hilarious, pot meet kettle.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 8, 2014)

I feel silly, oh so silly.
political predictions of the defeat of the dithering Ds rest on an unstated premise: that the braying jackass is more crazy than diaperless dumbo disgusting.

Ocare is the D ideal
less service, more costs, 

The Republicans have no ideals because with the Ds as their opponents they don't need any.

This moment of relaxation was brought to you for the hell of it.


----------



## MeBelle (Apr 8, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> is tihs really what we envisioned when we were told we finally had healthcare reform?
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/health-insurance-14-5-million-100000231.html



The latest survey found that states seeing the steepest price increases for off-exchange individual plans include Delawarewhere off-exchange plans increased by 100 percent, New Hampshire increased by 90 percent, Indiana by 54 percent, California by 53 percent and Connecticut by 45 percent.

Meanwhile, as Forbes noted, small group market plans increased the most in Washington by 588 percent, Pennsylvania by 66 percent and California by 37 percent.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 8, 2014)

I don't know about IN, DE and CT but NH and CA are often cited as the way *not* to run a healthcare system.


----------



## asterism (Apr 9, 2014)

william the wie said:


> I don't know about IN, DE and CT but NH and CA are often cited as the way *not* to run a healthcare system.



Don't forget Oregon, and the government maze was so convoluted that even Oracle couldn't figure it out.

Cover Oregon: Feds blast state health insurance exchange and lead contractor, Oracle | OregonLive.com


----------



## william the wie (Apr 9, 2014)

asterism said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know about IN, DE and CT but NH and CA are often cited as the way *not* to run a healthcare system.
> ...


Didn't MD and some other state also have a state exchange meltdown?


----------



## asterism (Apr 9, 2014)

william the wie said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



Yes.  

Gansler asks O?Malley for independent probe of Maryland health exchange, gets rebuffed - The Washington Post

Md. Audit Released On Health Exchange Problems; State Health Secretary Testifies « CBS Baltimore


----------



## william the wie (Apr 9, 2014)

I thought I remembered something to that effect. I will get back to you later I'm dealing with a wifely meltdown over buying at the bottom and selling at the top creating a large capital gain. So, I have to go.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 9, 2014)

RAND Comes Clean: Obamacare's Exchanges Enrolled Only 1.4 Million Previously Uninsured Individuals - Forbes


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 10, 2014)

The bottom line is those who have signed up are going to make the system more costly not help to pay for it.  that burden once again falls squarely on the shoulders of the middle class

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/two-studies-raise-red-flags-093000430.html


----------



## MeBelle (Apr 11, 2014)

Stunning!



Sebelius quits: Embattled HHS Secretary pays for Obamacare woes despite promises ELEVEN days ago that she would remain through November | Mail Online


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 11, 2014)

it's obvious the democrats plan isn't working and they have no new ideas to offer up.  maybe its tme we give the republicans a shot at it

Bobby Jindal Has Smart Ideas to Improve Obamacare - Businessweek


----------



## william the wie (Apr 11, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> it's obvious the democrats plan isn't working and they have no new ideas to offer up.  maybe its tme we give the republicans a shot at it
> 
> Bobby Jindal Has Smart Ideas to Improve Obamacare - Businessweek


You need to look at the full picture. Ocare was passed by:

A president from IL which was downgraded for bond rating again earlier this year.

A House Speaker from CA which was downgraded last year.

And a senate majority leader from a state whose main source, at least indirectly. of revenues is CA.

Whether consciously or not the main purpose of Ocare was and is to bail out critically important parts of the D machine. that soon to be failure has a much longer shadow than this POS bill.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 12, 2014)

Sebelius's Dangerous Legacy of Incompetence and Deception « Commentary Magazine


----------



## Amelia (Apr 13, 2014)

Reid needs a dose of reality on Obamacare | Las Vegas Review-Journal



> ....
> 
> &#8220;Despite all that good news, there&#8217;s plenty of horror stories being told. All of them are untrue, but they&#8217;re being told all over America.&#8221;
> 
> ...


----------



## Listening (Apr 13, 2014)

Listening said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Well, it seems [MENTION=3135]jillian[/MENTION] has decided to flee rather than face being smacked around for her stupidity.


----------



## jillian (Apr 13, 2014)

Meister said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



perhaps that's because you aren't very bright.

but i understand when you align yourself with subliterates like "listening", that might give you an inflated view of yourself.


----------



## Listening (Apr 14, 2014)

Does anyone really think Sebelius would have "retired" had this gone well ?


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 14, 2014)

Obamacare Not Exactly a Home Run, According to Poll - MainStreet


----------



## Meister (Apr 14, 2014)

jillian said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



You are the one with an inflated view of yourself, princess.  When you align yourself with the Dean's, TDM's, Leftwinger's....you shouldn't be saying anything about anyone not being bright.
But, it is expected of you these days, you've slipped with any quality that you might have possessed in the past.....


----------



## Listening (Apr 14, 2014)

Meister said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



I see it as sour grapes.  After all, if I had supported Obama, I'd be really depressed and bitter too.

Not that supporting the GOP leaves you feeling much better.


----------



## emilynghiem (Apr 14, 2014)

duplicate deleted


----------



## emilynghiem (Apr 14, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> it's obvious the democrats plan isn't working and they have no new ideas to offer up.  maybe its tme we give the republicans a shot at it
> 
> Bobby Jindal Has Smart Ideas to Improve Obamacare - Businessweek



Why not let Democrats follow up on the system their leaders implemented,
let Republicans have an option or exemption to pay for their proposed system,
the Singlepayers have an option or exemption to go into their system they wanted, etc.

If Amish and other "qualified" religious affiliations get an exemption by "group",
why not consider all such groups willing to cover their members as an exemption.

And let members/taxpayers chose their own option of either buying insurance or paying into one of the systems where they agree to cover the costs of managing it that way?

Clearly we are not all going to agree, so why not leave it open to group options?


----------



## Amelia (Apr 14, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > it's obvious the democrats plan isn't working and they have no new ideas to offer up.  maybe its tme we give the republicans a shot at it
> ...




Democrats need to make sure that people are paying for their version.  Too many healthy people would bail if they weren't herded toward where Democrats need them to be.  Too many healthy people might already be staying out.  But more would bail if they had better choices.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 14, 2014)

The next ObamaCare disasters | New York Post



> ....
> 
> Obama claimed Friday that 7.5 million people have enrolled in exchange coverage. In fact, perhaps 20 percent havent paid their first premium and therefore arent covered, according to estimates by RAND Corp. and Goldman Sachs.
> 
> ...


----------



## emilynghiem (Apr 14, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Democrats need to make sure that people are paying for their version.  Too many healthy people would bail if they weren't herded toward where Democrats need them to be.  Too many healthy people might already be staying out.  But more would bail if they had better choices.



Yes since their system of mandates requires full regulation, which other people/groups don't believe in, that is why I believe Democrats or Singlepayers should set up their own networks for registering their members/taxpayers under that system to regulate it themselves.

They can have all the prochoice/prodrug options they want to pay for, and are completely responsible for all consequences and costs of members who believe in following that policy.

If they'd rather pay for health care and education for inmates and low income welfare recipients, they can cover that instead of paying for the death penalty or war they oppose.

With the money they save, they can pay for social costs of health care, education, etc. under the public systems they believe in. Without costing money to taxpayers who don't.


----------



## emilynghiem (Apr 14, 2014)

Amelia said:


> The next ObamaCare disasters | New York Post
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Democrats should start saving up money to pay into an emergency fund, to "microlend" to people against these costs as a benefit for signing up for the sponsored health care. As people recover from medical crises and get back to work, they can pay back to help the next people on a revolving basis.

Instead of collecting and spending millions more on election campaigns, they need to pay for the commitments and services they already promised to their voting and participating constituents.

Obama believes in microlending, and his mother was instrumental in setting up the most successful model programs. This is his opportunity to lead his Party to set up microlending to replace welfare. The Republicans can do the same collecting back larger corporate reimbursement to taxpayers with all the money spent on corporate welfare on that side of the economic spectrum. We need to set up systems so whatever is lent out is paid back.


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## william the wie (Apr 14, 2014)

Amelia said:


> The next ObamaCare disasters | New York Post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OOH Thinks for cluing me in on that one. Long non-exchange insurers?


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## Greenbeard (Apr 15, 2014)

Amelia said:


> The next ObamaCare disasters | New York Post
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know there are cost-sharing subsidies, right?


----------



## Antares (Apr 15, 2014)

Greenbeard said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > The next ObamaCare disasters | New York Post
> ...



Surely the AMA knows that......but they also know that not everybody gets them....and even when they do they still can't always afford the premiums.


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## william the wie (Apr 17, 2014)

Checking to see if old threads were still accessible.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 17, 2014)

As Obama Claims Victory, Alabama Widows To Lose Their Healthcare Coverage Due to ObamaCare


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## Interpol (Apr 18, 2014)

Amelia said:


> As Obama Claims Victory, Alabama Widows To Lose Their Healthcare Coverage Due to ObamaCare



So because the state refused to accept the Medicaid expansion, which would have covered those 24 women, it's Obama's fault? 

Nice try.


----------



## MeBelle (Apr 18, 2014)

Interpol said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > As Obama Claims Victory, Alabama Widows To Lose Their Healthcare Coverage Due to ObamaCare
> ...



Medicaid expansion had nothing to do with the widows whose husbands had worked for the county which had self insured for years.



> The widows lost their healthcare coverage this year after the county was notified that these new rules would cause its* health insurance program to cost an additional $25 million a year.*



Yes, new rules (see above quote)  changed the way the county self-managed their health care program for county employees.

$25M a year to insure 24 widows?
Does that make any sense to you?

Nice try....not


----------



## MeBelle (Apr 18, 2014)

MSNBC has lost its mind 
Video @ link
When MSNBC is This Hard on the White House for Cooking the ObamaCare Books, You Know Somethings Up


*Well, Thats Convenient: Changes to Census Survey Will Make It More Difficult to Track ACAs Impact*
Well, Thats Convenient: Changes to Census Survey Will Make It More Difficult to Track ACAs Impact
More @ link
~~~~
WASHINGTON  *The Census Bureau*, the authoritative source of health insurance data for more than three decades, *is changing its annual survey so thoroughly that it will be difficult to measure the effects of President Obamas health care law in the next report, due this fall,* census officials said.

The changes are intended to improve the accuracy of the survey, being conducted this month in interviews with tens of thousands of households around the country. But *the new questions are so different that the findings will not be comparable, *the officials said.

An internal Census Bureau document said that *the new questionnaire included a total revision to health insurance questions and, in a test last year, produced lower estimates of the uninsured. *Thus, officials said, it will be difficult to say how much of any change is attributable to the Affordable Care Act and how much to the use of a new survey instrument.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/16/u...ealth-law-effects.html?_r=2&assetType=nyt_now

*If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull*


----------



## Amelia (Apr 18, 2014)

Interpol said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > As Obama Claims Victory, Alabama Widows To Lose Their Healthcare Coverage Due to ObamaCare
> ...




Their spouses earned the insurance they had.  Your and Obama's solution is to force them off the insurance they had -- what their spouse earned, what they liked, what they were familiar with and what they were promised they could keep -- onto government welfare roles where they would be subject to intrusions, restrictions and confusing regulations at a vulnerable time in their lives.


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## william the wie (Apr 18, 2014)

I wonder what's so hard to understand about a federal program administered at the zipcode level is bound to fail?


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## midcan5 (Apr 18, 2014)

Bravo bravo bravo millions of Americans now have healthcare, meanwhile thousands die in republican states that have not extended medicare. Here's a state that's genuinely American can do, and genuinely Christian. 



*"If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today."*

"Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan - the world's second - richest nation - or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old."  From prologue of book linked below.

"On September 11, 2001, some three thousand Americans were killed by terrorists; our country has spent hundreds of billions of dollars to make sure it doesn't happen again. But that same year, and every year since then, some twenty thousand Americans died because they couldn't get health care. That doesn't happen in any other developed country. Hundreds of thousands of Americans go bankrupt every year because of medical bills. That doesn't happen in any other developed country either."  T.R. Reid 'The Healing of America'


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Healing-America-Global-Better-Cheaper/dp/B004KAB348/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8]Amazon.com: The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care: T. R. Reid: Books[/ame]


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## dblack (Apr 18, 2014)

It's a good day to be an insurance company. Or to own stock in one.


----------



## Antares (Apr 18, 2014)

dblack said:


> It's a good day to be an insurance company. Or to own stock in one.



No it isn't, the new business is heavily stacked with what is called "adverse risk".
The companies will be hemorrhaging money very soon.

But not to worry, the bail outs are built into the law....for awhile.


----------



## MeBelle (Apr 19, 2014)

midcan5 said:


> Bravo bravo bravo millions of Americans now have healthcare, meanwhile thousands die in republican states that _*have not extended medicare.*_ Here's a state that's genuinely American can do, and genuinely Christian.



That would be *Medicaid*, not Medicare.

Ms White's story has little to do with today's situation.



			
				midcan5 said:
			
		

> ...genuinely Christian


Also has nothing to do with Ms White's story. But thanks for attempting to bash Christians.



midcan5 said:


> "Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White _contracted_ systemic lupus erythematosus;



Ms. White became convinced through her own research that she had lupus long before she was *diagnosed in 1994 at age 21*.

*Bless your heart-this story has been debunked several times on USMB.




			
				midcan5 said:
			
		

> Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance.


 

How and when Monique "Nikki" White had health insurance:

 1973-*1999: Covered by parents' insurance from childhood until she leaves college*

 2000-2001: Covered by employer's insurance

* 2001-October 2003: Uninsured.* Ms. White leaves her job because of illness and loses coverage. Unable to obtain individual private insurance, she eventually submits to mother's entreaties to apply for Medicaid.

 October 2003-July 2005: Covered by TennCare, Tennessee's expanded Medicaid program until July 2005, when Ms. White is notified she is being cut because program is being curtailed. She appeals but anticipates rejection because she is no longer eligible.

 August 2005-January 2006: Uninsured. She seeks federal Supplemental Security Income disability status, which usually makes Medicaid coverage automatic, but is initially denied. She later seeks private insurance.

 February 2006-May 2006: Covered by BlueCross BlueShield of Tennessee. On March 31, Social Security certifies her as disabled, which restores her Medicaid eligibility.

~~~

* 2001-October 2003: Uninsured.* Ms. White leaves her job because of illness and loses coverage. Unable to obtain individual private insurance
^^^flat out false^^^

*COBRA was enacted in 1986.*



> After her diagnosis, Ms. White stopped dating. She dropped her ambition to be a doctor. After studying psychology in college, in 1999 she worked at a Barnes & Noble bookstore and then began at an Austin, Texas, hospital trauma unit evaluating patients before treatment. The hospital job came with health benefits.
> 
> In 2001, her lupus worsened, and Ms. White quit her job and moved back into a garage apartment next to her parents' home in Tennessee. She couldn't get private health insurance at any cost, her mother says. "I would have sold my house but she wouldn't hear of it," her mother recalls. "We would've depleted everything. We would've done everything it took to get her better."





> Ms. White resisted her mother's pleas that _she enroll in TennCare, the Tennessee version of Medicaid._ *In 1994, Tennessee had expanded its program beyond the federally mandated coverage* of low-income children, pregnant women and the disabled -- broadening it to cover uninsured adults and those who found it difficult then to get private insurers because of pre-existing conditions. The young woman said she didn't want to be on welfare, her mother recalls. But *she finally applied and was accepted in October 2003*



Ms White's 'lack' of Health Insurance isn't why she died.
~~~

Happy Easter!!!


----------



## Listening (Apr 19, 2014)

midcan5 said:


> Bravo bravo bravo millions of Americans now have healthcare, meanwhile thousands die in republican states that have not extended medicare. Here's a state that's genuinely American can do, and genuinely Christian.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvOufbUM53g
> 
> ...



So...the solution was to kick them off their existing plans and offer them plans they could not afford....so they went uninsured.

Got it.


----------



## Meister (Apr 19, 2014)

midcan5 said:


> Bravo bravo bravo millions of Americans now have healthcare, meanwhile* thousands die in republican states that have not extended medicare*. Here's a state that's genuinely American can do, and genuinely Christian.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvOufbUM53g
> 
> ...


As long as you're going to embellish a yarn, why didn't you just say "millions", it would have had more impact.


----------



## Listening (Apr 19, 2014)

Meister said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > Bravo bravo bravo millions of Americans now have healthcare, meanwhile* thousands die in republican states that have not extended medicare*. Here's a state that's genuinely American can do, and genuinely Christian.
> ...



Once again we hear about people dying from lack of health care and yet the left can't produce them.  This story is pure bullcrap and blaming it on the system is outright dishonesty.

The left keeps lying and trying.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 19, 2014)

The deaths will be mostly in CA and possibly NH, the poster children of how not to run a medical system.


----------



## asterism (Apr 20, 2014)

dblack said:


> It's a good day to be an insurance company. Or to own stock in one.



It might be a good day to be an executive in an insurance company but it's a piss poor day to own one.

The risk models are off the charts bad - literally.  Trillions of dollars are going to be lost when the dust settles.  The only way the actuarial math works is if the government has an unlimited amount of money it can pay towards the risk corridors - and it doesn't.  The government has enough money to kick the can down the road, which it will.

It was a really dumb move to destroy the individual major medical market just to provide subsidies to 3% of the population.  The country spent more than the entire market cap of eHealth just to try and duplicate the exact same function.  The experts in Washington have done the same with re-insurance.  

The entire system is getting inundated with adverse selection.  The clusterfuck is so bad that even a government hospital (Moffitt) was dropped by a premier Medicare Advantage vendor.


----------



## dblack (Apr 20, 2014)

asterism said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > It's a good day to be an insurance company. Or to own stock in one.
> ...



I suspect that the major players in the industry, those driving ACA from the outset, will make out like the thieves they are.


----------



## asterism (Apr 20, 2014)

midcan5 said:


> Bravo bravo bravo millions of Americans now have healthcare, meanwhile thousands die in republican states that have not extended medicare. Here's a state that's genuinely American can do, and genuinely Christian.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvOufbUM53g
> 
> ...



I'd like to see a link to substantiate your claim that anyone has died in "republican states that have not extended medicare."

I'd also like to see where extending Medicare was ever an option for the "republican states."


----------



## Politico (Apr 20, 2014)

asterism said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > It's a good day to be an insurance company. Or to own stock in one.
> ...



Hardly. One the risk corridor payments start coming in they will make out like bandits.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 20, 2014)

Make out like bandits in a government run ogliopoly? The Ds are going to run on buggering taxpayers blind to gain donations and do so openly, OK.


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## dblack (Apr 20, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Make out like bandits in a government run ogliopoly? ...



Duh?


----------



## william the wie (Apr 20, 2014)

dblack said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> > Make out like bandits in a government run ogliopoly? ...
> ...


look at politico's post above mine that I was responding to.

The more I look at this bill the more confusingly stupid it looks:

The Ds are saying that they will make the insurance companies richer at taxpayer expense.

Zip code administratuon without any state, local or federal administrators.

No mechanism to deal with caregiver and subsidy getter migration.

Was any thought taken in putting this bill together?


----------



## dblack (Apr 20, 2014)

william the wie said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



I think the lobbyists who wrote it put some thought I into it. Or at least into what they could get out of it.

Google Liz Fowler.


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## william the wie (Apr 20, 2014)

Quite possibly true but is that politically survivable for the Ds?


----------



## dblack (Apr 20, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Quite possibly true but is that politically survivable for the Ds?



I sure hope not. But if that just cycles us back to another round of neo-con jackals, I'd hardly call it a win.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Apr 20, 2014)

william the wie said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > william the wie said:
> ...



This bill? Yer funny.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Apr 20, 2014)




----------



## Spoonman (Apr 21, 2014)

Even whne they move the goal posts they still can't call this a success

Morici: Hardly Time to Call Obamacare a Success - TheStreet


----------



## william the wie (Apr 21, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Even whne they move the goal posts they still can't call this a success
> 
> Morici: Hardly Time to Call Obamacare a Success - TheStreet


And this is still the honeymoon. Care giver and and care taker migrations have yet to begin, subsidy tax rates for subsidy changes are a year away.


----------



## Jroc (Apr 21, 2014)

> *Democratic Rep Warns That Obamacare&#8217;s Worst About to &#8216;Hit the Fan&#8217;*
> 
> But those Democrats who are not defending controversial votes they may have taken regarding the ACA, or who are not beholden to the president who is desperate to avoid one last rebuke from the electorate, are warning of a far bleaker future for Democrats with the Obamacare millstone around their necks.
> 
> ...



Democratic Rep Warns That Obamacare?s Worst About to ?Hit the Fan? | Mediaite


----------



## william the wie (Apr 22, 2014)

Jroc said:


> > *Democratic Rep Warns That Obamacares Worst About to Hit the Fan*
> >
> > But those Democrats who are not defending controversial votes they may have taken regarding the ACA, or who are not beholden to the president who is desperate to avoid one last rebuke from the electorate, are warning of a far bleaker future for Democrats with the Obamacare millstone around their necks.
> >
> ...


Obamacare is the gift that keeps on giving to non-Ds. I still stand by my no repeal and no replace position. It will be gutted even more, probably by Obama himself to a huge extent before he leaves office. However the key problem of administration by zip code when there are no state, local or federal zipcode administrators on site to administer the program within the zipcode will not be gutted or even addressed. Some false hopes of repeal will be seen when:

A revolt from the left breaks out in the Democratic party, probably in 2016.

When the market takes a way over due correction, probably this year.

When one or more blue states are rated junk or default on their bonds, no prediction on that one

The jackasses may be more arrogant and delusional than dumb but even the those of the Dumbo totem do not appear to be dumb enough to split their party wide open in order to save their main opposition so Ocare will be carefully gutted but not repealed.


----------



## Listening (Apr 22, 2014)




----------



## Spoonman (Apr 24, 2014)

So pretty much what republicans and the Tea Party have been predicting all along is becoming a reality

Obamacare Nightmare is Just Beginning Now


----------



## dblack (Apr 24, 2014)

I have a question for those of you predicting disaster for ACA. What it if doesn't crash and burn as you predict? What if it more or less works? What if people acquiesce to the law, do as they're told and allow the insurance industry to establish itself as de facto branch of government? What if the costs are simply absorbed quietly into our already ridiculous national debt and we just keep on limping along, not with a 'bang', but with an extended whimper?

In that case, will you drop your opposition to Obamacare?


----------



## Meister (Apr 24, 2014)

dblack said:


> I have a question for those of you predicting disaster for ACA. What it if doesn't crash and burn as you predict? What if it more or less works? What if people acquiesce to the law, do as they're told and allow the insurance industry to establish itself as de facto branch of government? What if the costs are simply absorbed quietly into our already ridiculous national debt and we just keep on limping along, not with a 'bang', but with an extended whimper?
> 
> In that case, will you drop your opposition to Obamacare?


"What if".......if it was delivered as it was packaged?
"What if".......if you like you Dr. You can keep your Dr.?
"What if".......if you like your healthcare insurance, you can keep your insurance?
"What if".......the average family will save $2,500 a year?

I like these "what if" games.


----------



## dblack (Apr 24, 2014)

Meister said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question for those of you predicting disaster for ACA. What it if doesn't crash and burn as you predict? What if it more or less works? What if people acquiesce to the law, do as they're told and allow the insurance industry to establish itself as de facto branch of government? What if the costs are simply absorbed quietly into our already ridiculous national debt and we just keep on limping along, not with a 'bang', but with an extended whimper?
> ...



Care to answer it then? I'm not saying it will happen, but it could. They might manage to string this out, paper over all the missteps and wait it out long enough for people to accept their 'fate'. What then? I'm just curious whether the bulk of the opposition here is based on the idea that corporate/government services "can't work", or that even if they can, they shouldn't be allowed. Speaking for myself, even if it all worked as advertised, I'd be bitterly opposed.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 24, 2014)

dblack said:


> I have a question for those of you predicting disaster for ACA. What it if doesn't crash and burn as you predict? What if it more or less works? What if people acquiesce to the law, do as they're told and allow the insurance industry to establish itself as de facto branch of government? What if the costs are simply absorbed quietly into our already ridiculous national debt and we just keep on limping along, not with a 'bang', but with an extended whimper?
> 
> In that case, will you drop your opposition to Obamacare?


Politics and Ocare are local, only Ocare provides incentives for migration in the form of subsidies, reimbursement rates and network density/quality. That means that it will never collapse entirely it will just erode D support by zip codes in succession.


----------



## Meister (Apr 24, 2014)

dblack said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


I try and stay in the real world with what is, is.  I don't try and choreograph a scenario that is picture perfect in my own view.
I love it how you say that it just needs to be strung out long enough for us to accept our fate.  In other words everbody just needs to stand down and accept what has been shoved down their throats.  Tough shit if you don't like it, just deal with it.  We all just need to be good little goons and do what our government demands.  
You would have been in the top of your class with Hitler's Youth.


----------



## Listening (Apr 24, 2014)

dblack said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Amen.

Rep on the way.


----------



## dblack (Apr 24, 2014)

Meister said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



I think you're mis-reading me here. Or maybe I'm not being clear. I'm in no way, shape, or form advocating for acceptance of ACA - quite the opposite. But I'm worried, that if all we focus on is the hit list of "successes" or "failures", we'll lose the fight against it. The corporate and government ambitions behind it will do whatever they can to make things "work" long enough for people to roll over and go back to sleep.


----------



## Meister (Apr 24, 2014)

dblack said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Obamacare is not insuring the uninsured as it was intended.  Very few in that category signed up.  The young (18-35) did not sign up as intended.....only around 25% did, obama counted babies and the very young (1-16) to get that 35% number.  It's not going to work as it stands....if healthcare is going to work, it's not going to be anything close to what we have now and it won't be called the ACA, and Pelosi's fingerprints won't be on it at all.
Nobody will or can forget as long as their are carveouts and delays.  At that time, they will see this as a debacle we all know it is.  
What is palatable is a safety net for those that don't have insurance and not blanketing 300 million who don't need it.


----------



## Amelia (Apr 24, 2014)

dblack said:


> I have a question for those of you predicting disaster for ACA. What it if doesn't crash and burn as you predict? What if it more or less works? What if people acquiesce to the law, do as they're told and allow the insurance industry to establish itself as de facto branch of government? What if the costs are simply absorbed quietly into our already ridiculous national debt and we just keep on limping along, not with a 'bang', but with an extended whimper?
> 
> In that case, will you drop your opposition to Obamacare?




No.  My opposition wasn't based on whether the law would be a success or not.  Inasmuch as it has highlighted what is so bad about the Democrat vision of good governance, that has been a bonus.


----------



## dblack (Apr 24, 2014)

Amelia said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question for those of you predicting disaster for ACA. What it if doesn't crash and burn as you predict? What if it more or less works? What if people acquiesce to the law, do as they're told and allow the insurance industry to establish itself as de facto branch of government? What if the costs are simply absorbed quietly into our already ridiculous national debt and we just keep on limping along, not with a 'bang', but with an extended whimper?
> ...



Indeed. Another 'silver lining', though perhaps less overt, is the way Roberts' decision highlighted how our government wields power through the tax code. Not everyone got the message, but a some people are starting to notice that tax 'incentives' and 'mandates' are one in the same, and that Congress ordering us to buy health insurance or face higher taxes is no different than Congress ordering us to maintain a mortgage, raise children, or do things that satisfy the agendas of their various cronies.


----------



## william the wie (Apr 24, 2014)

dblack said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


True, but that lesson will soon be forgotten. The Greens and similar even further left groups are likely to take over in IL and CA. And that will pull the Ds even further out of the mainstream but it will not happen overnight.


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 27, 2014)

and this is the root of the problem.  from the start Obama, who campaigned to do away with lobbyists, called them in from the beginning to help sell obamacare. the plan was written by those who will benefit from it.  I wonder how the gun grabbers would feel about having the NRA write our national gun control laws.   And on top of it, make them mandatory

Obamacare: The Biggest Insurance Scam in History


----------



## william the wie (Apr 27, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> and this is the root of the problem.  from the start Obama, who campaigned to do away with lobbyists, called them in from the beginning to help sell obamacare. the plan was written by those who will benefit from it.  I wonder how the gun grabbers would feel about having the NRA write our national gun control laws.   And on top of it, make them mandatory
> 
> Obamacare: The Biggest Insurance Scam in History


The secret to insurance is that it is effectively impossible to determine the size and real value of accounts within an insurance company due to reserves. That is why Best rates insurance companies. Think Swiss banks only not quite as open.

The run up to the 2016 election will be very interesting. Already Honda has announced today in Tokyo that it is planning to move operations from CA to TX. Sacramento may try to stop that but I doubt that they can under US law. And the announcement could very well be greenmail but Covered California was not mentioned as a reason by either TX or Honda just taxes. I suspect the jobs and Physicians moving out and rent seeking subsidy recipients moving in to CA has begun but I do not know that.


----------



## Spoonman (Apr 30, 2014)

now this could turn real ugly.  so you cant even keep your brand new obamacare plan, even if you like it? 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-fix-bad-news-democrats-171400032.html


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## william the wie (Apr 30, 2014)

Allowing this rule to escape pre-election would be record breaker in terms of incompetence and stupidity even for Obama.


----------



## Amelia (May 1, 2014)

Scott W. Atlas: The Coming Two-Tier Health System - WSJ.com



> With the unveiling of the Affordable Care Act's website, the public experienced a painful reminder of the consequences of the government's new authority over health care. While millions signed up for insurance, millions of others abruptly lost their existing coverage and access to their doctors because that coverage didn't fit new ObamaCare definitions.
> 
> The health-care law was generated by an administration promoting government as the solution to inequality, yet the greatest irony of ObamaCare is what will undoubtedly follow as a long-term, unintended consequence of the law: a decidedly unequal, two-tiered health system. One will be for the poor and middle class, and a separate system will be for those with the money or power to circumvent ObamaCare.
> 
> ...


----------



## william the wie (May 1, 2014)

more like a 6 tier system within obamacare based on the three network densities and at least above average and below average reimbursement rates.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (May 3, 2014)

Pennywise said:


> when articles like this start to appear in friendly democrat territory (WaPo) trouble is coming. Things are going to get really ugly n this country, very soon.



It was written by a far right wing nutter. 

Sheesh. 

You people will believe anything. 

You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.


----------



## Spoonman (May 3, 2014)

so what is a success to a liberal today?  something that does nothing but costs a lot of money? 

Do the Math: Obamacare Won't Change the Number of Uninsured*|*Munir Moon


----------



## MaryL (May 4, 2014)

I lost my job, benefits (insurance) last year. I worked there for over twenty years. So I  get another job, in the meantime, lose my Doctor, he is out of the "network". I can't say just how appalled  I am with Obama and this Healthcare delusion. On top of this, I strongly suspect I lost My last job because of Obama. What an out of touch  political jerk he is. I will never ever vote Democrat. If the republicans put a rabid skunk up  for election, I will vote for it. Because the dems are  that bad.


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## d_tyler (May 4, 2014)

There's a whole bunch of people in your shoes MaryL.  And I'm sorry for that.  As a business owner, I spend most days waiting for the other shoe to drop.  

Here's the other problem though Mary...  the Republicans have to be REAL smart over the next year in choosing their candidate.  It's obvious that we don't have a say so in the process.  The electoral process is an absolute joke.  And when coupled with a very aggressive liberal media, the chances of landing a good GOP candidate are even worse.


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## LoneLaugher (May 4, 2014)

d_tyler said:


> There's a whole bunch of people in your shoes MaryL.  And I'm sorry for that.  As a business owner, I spend most days waiting for the other shoe to drop.
> 
> Here's the other problem though Mary...  the Republicans have to be REAL smart over the next year in choosing their candidate.  It's obvious that we don't have a say so in the process.  The electoral process is an absolute joke.  And when coupled with a very aggressive liberal media, the chances of landing a good GOP candidate are even worse.



Cool avatar. I've never seen that before. 

Why not make a list of the things....besides not having a viable candidate....that will be responsible for the GOP not winning the WH in 2016. 

As a business owner, I spend most days working to keep my business successful. It works better that way.


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## LoneLaugher (May 4, 2014)

MaryL said:


> I lost my job, benefits (insurance) last year. I worked there for over twenty years. So I  get another job, in the meantime, lose my Doctor, he is out of the "network". I can't say just how appalled  I am with Obama and this Healthcare delusion. On top of this, I strongly suspect I lost My last job because of Obama. What an out of touch  political jerk he is. I will never ever vote Democrat. If the republicans put a rabid skunk up  for election, I will vote for it. Because the dems are  that bad.



Gee! You are the perfect poster liar for the GOP! You've expressed your outrage with the perfect lack of detail and evidence. You should put a call into Hannity without delay. He'll make you a star!


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## william the wie (May 4, 2014)

d_tyler said:


> There's a whole bunch of people in your shoes MaryL.  And I'm sorry for that.  As a business owner, I spend most days waiting for the other shoe to drop.
> 
> Here's the other problem though Mary...  the Republicans have to be REAL smart over the next year in choosing their candidate.  It's obvious that we don't have a say so in the process.  The electoral process is an absolute joke.  And when coupled with a very aggressive liberal media, the chances of landing a good GOP candidate are even worse.


That depends mostly on how good Obama is on defense. Voter preference is for  divided government.


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## d_tyler (May 4, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> d_tyler said:
> 
> 
> > There's a whole bunch of people in your shoes MaryL.  And I'm sorry for that.  As a business owner, I spend most days waiting for the other shoe to drop.
> ...



I don't worry that they can't win...the GOP will probably win with anybody.  When the current administration has a 36% approval rating, it's not hard to see that change is inevitable.  But I am still concerned that the right person ends up in office.  It's not much of a win if the candidate isn't good for the country.  Just look at the current situation.

As for your business philosophy, I can appreciate a good jab when I see one.  Depending on how many people you have relying on you, that can sometimes be easier said than done.  I also work hard to be successful.  However, it is getting tougher and tougher to remain in the same profit margin due to the costs I am incurring thanks to ACA.  Maybe you don't have that problem.  Good for you.  But there are many out there who are having to make tough decisions to let people like Mary go because they can't afford the healthcare costs anymore.


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## william the wie (May 4, 2014)

One of the problems is that voters want a woman president and don't like Republican Women.


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## MeBelle (May 5, 2014)

Anyone have any guesses as to what this means?

I haven't seen it on the website on prior visits.


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## LoneLaugher (May 5, 2014)

d_tyler said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > d_tyler said:
> ...



What costs are you incurring thanks to the ACA? Please....be specific.


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## Meister (May 5, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> d_tyler said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Just what are you saying??????  Please be specific.


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## Meister (May 5, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > I lost my job, benefits (insurance) last year. I worked there for over twenty years. So I  get another job, in the meantime, lose my Doctor, he is out of the "network". I can't say just how appalled  I am with Obama and this Healthcare delusion. On top of this, I strongly suspect I lost My last job because of Obama. What an out of touch  political jerk he is. I will never ever vote Democrat. If the republicans put a rabid skunk up  for election, I will vote for it. Because the dems are  that bad.
> ...



Bring your facts to refute what she's stating.  You calling her a liar must mean you have evidence that she is.  
Maybe you're trying out for a spot on the rachel madcow show, or a piece on mediamatters.


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## Amelia (May 5, 2014)

MeBelle60 said:


> Anyone have any guesses as to what this means?
> 
> I haven't seen it on the website on prior visits.


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## boedicca (May 5, 2014)

MeBelle60 said:


> Anyone have any guesses as to what this means?
> 
> I haven't seen it on the website on prior visits.




Very interesting.

$1 doesn't sound like much, but neither did income taxes in 1916 nor SS when it was introduced.

It's the nose in the camel's tent in order to jack up patient payments in the future.


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## srlip (May 5, 2014)

Obamacare is going to be the SALVATION of the Republican party this November., Just watch and SEE.


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## Zoom-boing (May 5, 2014)

> LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
> 
> Local business owners might be hoping the Affordable Care Acts insurance mandates cover sticker shock.
> 
> ...



Own a small business? Brace for Obamacare pain | Las Vegas Review-Journal


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## Zoom-boing (May 5, 2014)

Romneycare-fail, obamacare-fail.



> RomneyCares pioneering health insurance exchange is headed for the scrap heap.
> 
> Bay State officials are taking steps this week to junk central parts of their dysfunctional health insurance exchange  the model for President Barack Obamas health care law  and merge with the federal enrollment site HealthCare.gov.
> 
> ...



Massachusetts ditches RomneyCare health exchange - POLITICO.com


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## Interpol (May 5, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> Romneycare-fail, obamacare-fail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your post just proved that basing any legislation off of Republican ideas is a shabby move. 

Public option should have been passed all along, just like Barraco Barner wanted.


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## Meister (May 5, 2014)

Interpol said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Romneycare-fail, obamacare-fail.
> ...



And you have a right to your opinion, just as I do....which doesn't agree with yours.


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## MeBelle (May 6, 2014)

Amelia said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone have any guesses as to what this means?
> ...





boedicca said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone have any guesses as to what this means?
> ...





			
				Covered Kalifornia said:
			
		

> Federal law requires Covered California plans to collect one dollar of  premium payment from every member for certain healthcare services


One dollar of premium payment...means *tada* premiums are getting paid!
...for certain healthcare services: means the ACA "essential health benefits" not subject to any co-payments, co-insurance, or deductibles.


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## billyerock1991 (May 6, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> > LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
> >
> > Local business owners might be hoping the Affordable Care Acts insurance mandates cover sticker shock.
> >
> ...



time to look at another company for insurance ... if a insurance company is gouging you up to 120% then you have the wrong company time to look at a different company... ... one of my dogs has a disease it's like leukemia ....what I have to do is suppress her immune system ... one of the drugs I give her is call mycophenolate ... I first started paying for it at costco's @ $14.51 ...the it went up to 28.00 ... then 39 dollars... this last time it cost me 68 dollars... there is a site on the web that will find you a drug at a very low cost .... that's what I did... now I'm buying it at $14.51... my point being if you are dealing with a company that is gouging you for money, there's always another company that will do the same thing cheaper ... like I said if you have a insurance company that will charge you 120% above what you were paying, its time to look at another company ...


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## Zoom-boing (May 6, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > > LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
> ...



Once again, the law requires more things be covered (the ten essentials) therefore, it costs more.  Since all insurance companies must now provide coverage for those services, costs will be higher no matter who you go with.  Unless you go on the exchanges and get subsidized ... which just means that your costs are lower because someone else's costs are higher because they are footing a portion of your bill.


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## Zoom-boing (May 6, 2014)

Interpol said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Romneycare-fail, obamacare-fail.
> ...



What I just proved was that the federal government has no fucking business being in the health insurance business.

Derp.


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## billyerock1991 (May 6, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...


so what does it say about the plan that cost 120% more??? it says that plan had noting that would help the people who had it ... thats what it says...


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## william the wie (May 6, 2014)

What I find bizarre is that cost constraints in two services healthcare and insurance causing UE is being debated. Service= wages.


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## Meister (May 6, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



Not true


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## Zoom-boing (May 6, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



I am only responsible for what I say not for what you (don't) understand.


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## Spoonman (May 6, 2014)

The hidden costs of obamacare

Full List of Obamacare Tax Hikes | Americans for Tax Reform


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## d_tyler (May 6, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> d_tyler said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Well, here in my area, the battle against setting up the exchange or not has resulted in the IRS re-writing the law and expanding subsidies for those states who chose not to implement exchanges. Giving 28 hours to full time workers is the only way we know how to avoid penalties that would close our doors. 

Specific enough for ya?  If not, too bad.


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## william the wie (May 6, 2014)

In its first qtr of operation the consensus is that GDP growth will turn negative upon revision. This is being blamed on show not Ocare. The second qtr. is not yet at the half way point but the excuses for negative growth this quarter are already floating: the slow down in China and Ukraine crisis; seem to be the most credible but they ain't alone.


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## billyerock1991 (May 7, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> Interpol said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



no you didn't ... you didn't prove anything of the sort ...


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## billyerock1991 (May 7, 2014)

Meister said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



right ... you might as well said OH yeah, or I know your are but what am I... that could worked here too ...

if you say you had a plan and it covered you with everything you needed, full coverage .. that means everything ... so the ACA gets passed and the health care you had now goes up 120% to pay for your health care that covered everything, that company is gouging you ... you should look some where else ... that's the only way they will learn not to gouge the consumer ... if you are trying to say well, they had to add more things to it because of the ACA requirements ... then its very obvious that the plan wasn't worth didly squat ... it also says if the plan has to cost 120% more you had a shitty plan in the first place to come up to ACA standards


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## billyerock1991 (May 7, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



here's what you don't understand ... again if a plan is going to cost you double, which by the way no plan has yet that Ive seen on any of the ACA plans has gone up 120%  as a silver plan owner, I saw my plan cut in half of the cost .... almost 5 times cut the cost of the deductible... I went to 1200 dollar deductible when I had a 5000 dollar deductible ... It cover more then the plan I use to have ... so you won't convince me with your inability to understand what the ACA plans are and what they really cost ...what are these "the ten essentials" you speak of ???  I challenge you or anyone here to show us where your past health care plan ... then show us where these ten things caused it to go up 120%  ... the name of that plan .... you won't come up with one ... all you're doing is quoting some right wing site and you call that your proof ... show us on the ACA web site ... that's what I call a understanding of what things cost and what are lies ...


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## Zoom-boing (May 7, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



You are truly the dumbest poster on here.  Plans on the (un)aca haven't gone up 120% ... how the FUCK can they go up 120% when THEY JUST FUCKING STARTED FOUR MONTHS AGO????  What kind of a stupid ass statement is that??

People like ME and MR. H. and the multitude of others on here and irl ... OUR plans have gone up exorbitantly.  And you're too stupid to understand why.  More services need to be covered, more people are getting subsidized = SOMEONE HAS TO FUCKING PAY FOR IT SO OUR PREMIUMS ARE SKYROCKETING IN ORDER TO PAY FOR IT.

You blather on and don't even know what the ten essentials that the government mandated are?  You are a rockhead.  I've posted this info for you before but you just refuse to comprehend.  The info is even on  your precious (un)aca website.  Last time, rockhead:  https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/essential-health-benefits/

You're too dumb to even respond to, don't know why I even bother.


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## Zoom-boing (May 7, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Interpol said:
> ...





romneycare needs fed bucks to keep going, its exchange is broken so they are scrapping it

obamacare is based on romneycare

You are such a tool.


----------



## Meister (May 7, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



You are so full of shit, billie.  Now the plans are one size fits all, whether you need "all" or not.  Imagine a couple in their 60's now have coverage for pregnancy, ect.

If it was a "shitty" plan why did your messiah postpone fixing those "shitty" plans?  If they were that bad, he should have stuck to the damn bill and had them implemented, right?
No, he's playing politics and this whole obamacare just reeks with politics and your too damn stupid to figure it out, or.....your just a tool.


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## prj (May 7, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> here's what you don't understand ... again if a plan is going to cost you double, which by the way no plan has yet that Ive seen on any of the ACA plans has gone up 120%  as a silver plan owner, I saw my plan cut in half of the cost .... almost 5 times cut the cost of the deductible... I went to 1200 dollar deductible when I had a 5000 dollar deductible ... It cover more then the plan I use to have ... so you won't convince me with your inability to understand what the ACA plans are and what they really cost



Premiums have doubled for individuals that buy plans off the exchange and make too much to qualify for plans on the exchange. The majority of this increase is due to the essential benefits that must be covered, no more lifetime benefit caps and no longer denying pre-existing conditions.  The other costs are because of new taxes fees of the law that have burdened the health insurance companies to help pay subsidies for those on the exchange.



> ...what are these "the ten essentials" you speak of ???



ObamaCare Essential Health Benefits

You didn't think all of these extra requirements would come at no cost for those purchasing insurance off the exchange did you?


----------



## Zoom-boing (May 7, 2014)

obamacare, the pile of poo that keeps on stinking.





> *The D.C. Council passed a unique tax on health insurance products Tuesday to ensure its Obamacare exchange remains viable when federal grant funding dries up next year  a concern it shares with 14 states that set up their own health portals.*
> 
> *Lawmakers unanimously approved the 1-percent tax on coverage offered on and off the city-run health exchange*, a broad move intended to fund D.C. Health Links nearly $30 million budget without burdening exchange plans with the costs.
> 
> ...



D.C. Council passes tax on health insurance to fund Obamacare exchange operations - Washington Times


----------



## Zoom-boing (May 7, 2014)

prj said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > here's what you don't understand ... again if a plan is going to cost you double, which by the way no plan has yet that Ive seen on any of the ACA plans has gone up 120%  as a silver plan owner, I saw my plan cut in half of the cost .... almost 5 times cut the cost of the deductible... I went to 1200 dollar deductible when I had a 5000 dollar deductible ... It cover more then the plan I use to have ... so you won't convince me with your inability to understand what the ACA plans are and what they really cost
> ...



No, he thinks that some magical money machine will make it all freeee!

How stupid can one person be, he's rah-rahed this mess from the get go and doesn't even know what the 'ten essentials' are.    He even has a plan from the exchange!    What a dope.


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## billyerock1991 (May 8, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...


*you may have posted it before I've never seen it ... so you're just assuming I have seen it before... the fact that you couldn't post it again, says you never posted in the first place after all, you republicans are know liars ... their aren't any government mandates where you get that from is beyond me ...
*


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## Meister (May 8, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...





A total immature idiot will be a total immature idiot.


----------



## billyerock1991 (May 8, 2014)

prj said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > here's what you don't understand ... again if a plan is going to cost you double, which by the way no plan has yet that Ive seen on any of the ACA plans has gone up 120%  as a silver plan owner, I saw my plan cut in half of the cost .... almost 5 times cut the cost of the deductible... I went to 1200 dollar deductible when I had a 5000 dollar deductible ... It cover more then the plan I use to have ... so you won't convince me with your inability to understand what the ACA plans are and what they really cost
> ...


 your facts are very week here the site you used came up file not there

finally it went throught the site open hey its a computer they do weird shit some times
are you saying what a stand policy we use to have didn't have these things in them are this thats what you are griping about
   1. *Ambulatory patient services *(Outpatient care). Care you receive without being admitted to a hospital, such as at a doctor&#8217;s office, clinic or same-day (&#8220;outpatient&#8221 surgery center. Also included in this category are home health services and hospice care (note: some plans may limit coverage to no more than 45 days).

*(BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA
*
   2.* Emergency Services *(Trips to the emergency room). Care you receive for conditions that could lead to serious disability or death if not immediately treated, such as accidents or sudden illness. Typically, this is a trip to the emergency room, and includes transport by ambulance. You cannot be penalized for going out-of-network or for not having prior authorization.

(*BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA*


   3.* Hospitalization* (Treatment in the hospital for inpatient care). Care you receive as a hospital patient, including care from doctors, nurses and other hospital staff, laboratory and other tests, medications you receive during your hospital stay, and room and board. Hospitalization coverage also includes surgeries, transplants and care received in a skilled nursing facility, such as a nursing home that specializes in the care of the elderly (note: some plans may limit skilled nursing facility coverage to no more than 45 days).

*(BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA*


   4.* Maternity and newborn care*. Care that women receive during pregnancy (prenatal care), throughout labor, delivery and post-delivery, and care for newborn babies.
*(BR) didn't have this before on my policy before the ACA*

   5. *Mental health services and addiction treatment*. Inpatient and outpatient care provided to evaluate, diagnose and treat a mental health condition or substance abuse disorder . This includes behavioral health treatment, counseling, and psychotherapy. (note: some plans may limit coverage to 20 days each year. Limits must comply with state or federal parity laws. Read this document for more information on mental health benefits and the Affordable Care Act).

(*BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA*


   6.* Prescription drugs*. Medications that are prescribed by a doctor to treat an illness or condition. Examples include prescription antibiotics to treat an infection or medication used to treat an ongoing condition, such as high cholesterol. At least one prescription drug must be covered for each category and classification of federally approved drugs, however limitations do apply. Some prescription drugs can be excluded. "Over the counter" drugs are usually not covered even if a doctor writes you a prescription for them. Insurers may limit drugs they will cover, covering only generic versions of drugs where generics are available. Some medicines are excluded where a cheaper equally effective medicine is available, or the insurer may impose "Step" requirements (expensive drugs can only be prescribed if doctor has tried a cheaper alternative and found that it was not effective). Some expensive drugs will need special approval.

(BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA  


   7. *Rehabilitative services and device*s &#8211; Rehabilitative services (help recovering skills, like speech therapy after a stroke) and habilitative services (help developing skills, like speech therapy for children) and devices to help you gain or recover mental and physical skills lost to injury, disability or a chronic condition (this also includes devices needed for "habilitative reasons"). Plans have to provide 30 visits each year for either physical or occupational therapy, or visits to the chiropractor. Plans must also cover 30 visits for speech therapy as well as 30 visits for cardiac or pulmonary rehab.
*(BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA*

   8. *Laboratory services*. Testing provided to help a doctor diagnose an injury, illness or condition, or to monitor the effectiveness of a particular treatment. Some preventive screenings, such as breast cancer screenings and prostrate exams, are provided free of charge.

*(BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA*


   9.* Preventive services,* wellness services, and chronic disease treatment. This includes counseling, preventive care, such as physicals, immunizations and screenings, like cancer screenings, designed to prevent or detect certain medical conditions. Also, care for chronic conditions, such as asthma and diabetes. (note: please see our full list of Preventive services for details on which services are covered.)

(*BR) HAD this on my policy before the ACA*

  10.* Pediatric services*. Care provided to infants and children, including well-child visits and recommended vaccines and immunizations. Dental and vision care must be offered to children younger than 19. This includes two routine dental exams, an eye exam and corrective lenses each year.

*(BR) didn't have this before on my policy before the ACA becasue I didn't ask for it * 

*so when I had all this crap before, accept two things, you republicans are trying to tell me and the others by adding these two thing that its going to cost you between 35% to a 120% more??? well I got the same plan with these two things added .... that I didn't have before ... it cost me 250 dollars less ... so again who are you trying to convince, me ???? who  pays 250.00 now and try to tell me less is a bad thing ???  you got the nerve to call me a idiot???  really ??? right back at you*


----------



## billyerock1991 (May 8, 2014)

Meister said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



as always ya got nuttin' here we have zoom ding-a-ling posting 120% cost and he couldn't seem to remember that he posted one thread back... and with your lack of brilliance to defend him you try and call me the idiot ... I hope you're not attorney, looks like you got egg on your face, and one lost case ... I love it when you republicans are cornered with your stupid remarks ... it makes you even look more stupids, if there's such a thing ...


----------



## Meister (May 8, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...


I stand by my previous post, you only solidify my belief with your posts.


----------



## Zoom-boing (May 8, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...




You shithead.  INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE RAISING PREMIUMS TO COVER THE TEN ESSENTIALS, TO COVER THOSE WHO WILL BE GETTING SUBSIDIZED, TO COVER THE FEES THAT THE FED IS NOW CHARGING, TO COVER COST INCREASES.  You're a fucking idiot that you can not grasp this.  Any lower cost plans ARE BEING PAID FOR BY SOMEONE ELSE.  How?  BY FUCKING INCREASING THE PREMIUMS ON SOMEONE ELSE!!  Do you REALLY think that because YOUR COST is lower that somehow, someway NO ONE ELSE IS PICKING UP THE TAB?????  You are too stupid for words.

I POSTED THE FUCKING ACA LINK, MORON.  Go read it, don't go read it, I don't care.  You're retarded.


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## william the wie (May 8, 2014)

Would you stop quoting the people you call idiots? Ignore does not work on quotes


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## emilynghiem (May 8, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> you may have posted it before I've never seen it ... so you're just assuming I have seen it before... the fact that you couldn't post it again, says you never posted in the first place after all, you republicans are know liars ... *their aren't any government mandates where you get that from is beyond me ...
> *


 [MENTION=36822]billyerock1991[/MENTION] is ^ ^ this from you ^ ^  or someone else you quoted?

(1) for employer mandates, businesses such as Hobby Lobby are required to provide insurance UNDER SPECIFIC REGULATIONS and MINIMUM requirements or ELSE PAY
MILLIONS IN FINES (1.3 million per day due to 1000's of employees = close to 500 million)

(2) for individual mandates, people are required to report on income tax returns that insurance was purchased which MEETS FEDERAL REGULATIONS or else pay
up to 1% of one's earned income (which is double for couples).

If you are saying there are "no govt mandates,"
where are you getting this? What are the expensive federal lawsuits over, then?

What are you considering a mandate if these do not count, billy?

Thanks, trying to understand.


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## emilynghiem (May 8, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



Examples of ppl I know personally
1. My friend D would normally have gotten free help at the county hospital through a gold card. Because the household income counts his and his mother's benefits (which isn't enough to pay their bills much less medical bills) then he would have to pay 8800.00 out of pocket before insurance covers. In the meantime his body is breaking down and suffering.
He does not have any money at all. He lost his job due to his health failing and all his cards are maxed out.

2. My friend C is in great health and can wait to buy insurance, and does not need it now when there are other expenses he needs to pay for first. 

If this bill continues without changing the mandates, the tax penalty will deduct 1% of his income automatically.

So that is thousands of dollars more that he never agreed to pay under federal mandates.

Note: I asked him about buying cheap insurance, but his Constitutional beliefs do not allow him or me to go along with forcing people to buy things because of federal govt we believe is being ABUSED unconstitutionally.

if he consented to compromise, then this could be an option.

but if people are not willing to compromise their beliefs in Constitutional govt and limits,
then this penalty itself is "discriminating against people on the basis of creed."

So it is costing more money, and normally C would have freedom as before to buy insurance or not, and NOT violate any beliefs about Constitutional limits on govt.
But now with these mandates in place, there is no way to buy insurance freely, in keeping with beliefs in civil liberty, because of govt regulations and mandates imposed globally.

3. I currently get my insurance through work. Because of threats to cut the staff and jobs where I work, I have been under CONSTANT strain and even depression from worrying that I would not be able to buy REQUIRED insurance if my work got cut.

I am using my salary from both my jobs to pay for charges on credit where I invested money in helping historic community and school districts suffering damage from govt abuses. So I need that money to pay bills (caused by govt abuses and destruction of community nonprofits and volunteers relying on my salaries to operate).

So this ACA added pressure and threats to cut my income, where before I was free to get help from other family and friends to pay medical costs "if these came up."

I no longer have that freedom, but would be forced by govt to pay for medical care "in advance through insurance" instead of paying more immediate emergency costs whle the other costs could be "covered other ways besides forcing me to buy insurance or pay fines"

4.  Added note: because I do not have a lawyer or access or resources to sue to regain my freedom that was lost because of these mandates, I am stuck with the pressure on me.

Not only do I have to keep working two jobs to pay for other damages by govt abuse, but now have to do so with this added pressure, and with no legal recourse to defend or get back the freedom that has been imposed upon.

So now I suffer political discrimination on top of the problems I was already paying for caused by govt abuse and lack of accountability for the damages dumped on me to pay because nobody else would help.

Thanks but no thanks.
Nobody will listen because they are too busy fighting politically to solve the problem.
so 5. all the people who cannot buy the medicine or access the treatment they had before
are NOT being heard because of political media bias where people don't trust news sources.
(just like iraq vets getting antibiotics from the feed stores because the gulf syndrome didn't exist.)

I cannot find a lawyer to help (because it is too expensive to sue over a principle -- there have to be monetary damages that lawyers can use to get paid from for the work it takes,
and when you throw in fighting govt where their legal expenses are paid for with infinite public funds, that is never an equal battle when you are paying for both sides if you get help at all for yours) 
and neither can my friend D find help whose health is failing and body is barely staying alive while he waits for "something to change."

If the point was to make health care accessible and affordable for all,
why aren't the Democrats lending money to help people until it can be paid back when the benefits come in?

I put my own money into fixing problems caused by Democrat abuses of govt.
Why am I expected to pay even more on top of that?

Why is "buying insurance the only way" that isn't fined with penalties I can't afford to pay or make others pay without violating our beliefs in this being  unconstitutional?
If I think saving national history from being destroyed by govt abuses at taxpayers expense
is MORE important than buying insurance, why should I be fined? why can't I get help with health care from charity and use my income to solve other problems caused by govt abuse?
Why should I be forced to pay even more money when I didn't commit abuses, while people who DID commit govt abuse as public expense are not required to pay back costs?

How backwards is this?


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## Zoom-boing (May 9, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



You're the idiot would fails to comprehend, as YOU posted this in reference to the 120% icrease:



> no plan has yet that Ive seen on any of the ACA plans has gone up 120%



Derpy derp.  Those increases aren't referring to the (un)aca.  Where'd you get that from?  Oh yeah, you just spewed it out because you don't know what they hell you're talking about.

From the link:



> *Local insurance brokers are reporting spikes ranging from 35 percent to 120 percent on policies that renew from July to December*. The increases are especially acute among employers with workforces made up of younger, healthier men. Thats because *Obamacare prohibits offering lower rates to healthier groups. It also narrows the allowed premium gap between older and younger enrollees*.



obamacare prohibits (forbids) offering lower rates to healthier groups.  Why oh WHY?  So that all those who DO have a pre-exsiting condition don't have to pay more.  Those healthier people are now paying more IN THE FORM OF  HIGHER PREMIUMS, for all the reasons I've previously listed AS WELL AS to cover the lower costs that those with p.e.'s get to enjoy.  That is utter bullshit, feel good "fairness" from the lying lips of obama.  People who have a p.e. are a higher risk to insure and THEY SHOULD be paying more.  Period.

In fucking loonatic leftist world, everything has to be fair and equal.  Bullshit.


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## billyerock1991 (May 9, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



emily you need to stop copying your post from that weird web site you go to  all the time and paste it here as if it has some sort of value... these 
alleged scenarios of yours are funny at best 

the guy said he had to pay his deductible first before he could get his meds... that's a lie ... I know it, they know it ... for somebody having to pay for their deductible first and not get health care that's a lie too .... all they have to do is show up in any emergency room and they will take him in and fix the problem .... then they disguss the deductible  if they lost their job thanks to obama care they can go on medicaid ... so I don't buy your poor poor pitiful A B AND C  scenarios ... you were trying to make it as if it were some real person, I know its made up...


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## billyerock1991 (May 9, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



*you know whats real funny ???  here I posted Zoom ding-a-ling's post now he's arguing with me that his post is wrong ... that's what Ive been saying from the beginning ... it can't get any better then that...Zoom ding-a-ling posted bull shit, then you call them on it,  they say your lying, because now their post isn't true ... below is this fools post   *

Old 05-05-2014, 05:57 PM
Zoom-boing's Avatar 	
Zoom-boing Zoom-boing is offline
Hic!
Member #13669

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Just off to the side of wherever you are
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Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 7371

Quote:
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL

Local business owners might be hoping the Affordable Care Act&#8217;s insurance mandates cover sticker shock.

The law&#8217;s employer coverage mandate doesn&#8217;t take effect until 2015, but early plan renewals are starting to roll in. And for some businesses, the premium jumps are positively painful.

Local insurance brokers are reporting spikes ranging from 35 percent to 120 percent on policies that renew from July to December. The increases are especially acute among employers with workforces made up of younger, healthier men. That&#8217;s because Obamacare prohibits offering lower rates to healthier groups. It also narrows the allowed premium gap between older and younger enrollees.

&#8220;It&#8217;s like if there were no more safe-driver discounts with State Farm,&#8221; said local insurance broker Frank Nolimal of Assurance Ltd. &#8220;Everybody has the same rate, whether you have three DUIs, or you&#8217;re a (nondrinking) churchgoing Mormon.&#8221;

The changes put as many as 90,000 policies across Nevada at risk of cancellation or nonrenewal this fall, said Las Vegas insurance broker William Wright, president of Chamber Insurance and Benefits. That&#8217;s more than three times the 25,000 enrollees affected in October, when Obamacare-compliant plans first hit the market.

Some workers are at higher risk than others of losing company-sponsored coverage. Professional, white-collar companies such as law or engineering firms will bite the bullet and renew at higher prices because they need to compete for scarce skilled labor, Nolimal said.

But moderately skilled or low-skilled people making $8 to $14 an hour working for landscaping businesses, fire-prevention firms or fencing companies could lose work-based coverage because the plans cost so much relative to salaries.

Employees who keep their coverage might see leaner take-home pay, which could hurt the economy.

Nolimal said one business client whose monthly premiums will rise from $160 to $340 in June plans to shift most of the increase onto his employees.

&#8220;Just like when you see gasoline prices going up an extra dime a gallon, it takes money out of the economy for things like buying a new stereo or having dinner out on the town,&#8221; Nolimal said.

The premium hikes could have political implications, as well. Nolimal estimated that as many as 85 percent of small-group plans will renew in November and December. Because new premiums go out 60 days before coverage takes effect, those price hikes will hit mailboxes in September and October &#8212; just before November&#8217;s elections.
Own a small business? Brace for Obamacare pain | Las Vegas Review-Journal
__________________
During the 3 1/2 years of World War II that started with the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and ended with the surrender of Germany and Japan in 1945, the U.S. produced 22 aircraft carriers, 8 battleships, 48 cruisers, 349 destroyers, 420 destroyer escorts, 203 submarines, 34 million tons of merchant ships, 100,000 fighter aircraft, 98,000 bombers, 24,000 transport aircraft, 58,000 training aircraft, 93,000 tanks, 257,000 artillery pieces, 105,000 mortars, 3,000,000 machine guns, and 2,500,000 military trucks. We put 16.1 million men in uniform in the various armed services, invaded Africa, invaded Sicily and Italy, won the battle for the Atlantic, planned and executed D-Day, marched across the Pacific and Europe, developed the atomic bomb and ultimately conquered Japan and Germany.

It's worth noting, that during almost the exact amount of time, the Obama administration couldn't build a functioning web site.

Donald Trump via Facebook
Reply With Quote

*now he's arguing with himself*


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## Zoom-boing (May 9, 2014)

^ Even when highlighted and specifically shown what he failed to understand, bill-ye-has-a-head-full-of-idiot still doesn't get it.  

So what does bill-ye-has-drunk-the-koolaid-and-is-a-believer do?  He reposts the article that he misunderstood!  



bill-ye-are-a-dope-fer-shure can't seem to figure out how the quote function works either.  

Cya, bill-ye-are-too-stupid-to-respond-to-anymore-I'm-done-with-ye.


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## Amelia (May 10, 2014)

Obamacare Employer Mandate Will Hurt Low-Wage Workers


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## billyerock1991 (May 10, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> ^ Even when highlighted and specifically shown what he failed to understand, bill-ye-has-a-head-full-of-idiot still doesn't get it.
> 
> So what does bill-ye-has-drunk-the-koolaid-and-is-a-believer do?  He reposts the article that he misunderstood!
> 
> ...



translation=you should have said OOPs I goofed ....

instead ya made a bigger fool of yourself ... it was your post that  I quoted ...you came back and challenged me that I'm wrong after quoting your source ...that you said your post was bull ... I though "WHAT THE FUCK" he's arguing with himself ... thats funny ... so Zoom-ding-a-ling tries to save face .. oh you really got be BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY... I'm a just a stinging all over my body....


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## Amelia (May 10, 2014)

Californians with Obamacare are driving to Mexico for cheaper, better healthcare


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## william the wie (May 10, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Californians with Obamacare are driving to Mexico for cheaper, better healthcare


How much is the increase in CA and TX?


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## Zoom-boing (May 10, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > ^ Even when highlighted and specifically shown what he failed to understand, bill-ye-has-a-head-full-of-idiot still doesn't get it.
> ...



^ Projection and lack of reading comprehension.  

The link never said that the plans on the (un)aca were increasing by 120%, moron.  YOU did.


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## billyerock1991 (May 11, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...


so you/re sayin it was implied meaning right ???  so when the president says you can save as much as 2500 dollars a year in health care cost, that doesn't imply he's promising you will save 2500 dollars a year, right ??? or am I to believe that 120% is what the cost is going to be ...


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## Zoom-boing (May 11, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



How do you even remember to breath on your own?

The plans on the (UN)ACA_ are not the ones _increasing by 35%-120%, that is NOT what the article said.  That was YOUR claim, see YOUR quote below.  It was pointed out to you several times . . . but all you can do is blather and change the subject. Loser.  



> again if a plan is going to cost you double, which by the way no plan has yet that Ive seen on any of the ACA plans has gone up 120%




obama did say that premiums for the typical family would decrease by $2,500 per year.  He ran on it.  You missed that the way you missed the ten mandated essentials.  

obama not only promised to cut the typical family's premium by $2,500/yr, he went even further ... it wasn't policy or ideology, he made a moral commitment. But he didn't sign any such law that would cut the typical family's premium, did he?  His promise (pledge) was a lie.



> I have made a solemn pledge that I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family's premiums by up to $2500 a year. That's not simply a matter of policy or ideology &#8211; it's a moral commitment.



A Politics of Conscience

^ Not good enough?  Go to minte 2:09 on the vid ... 

"My plan begins by covering every American.  If you already have health insurance the only thing that will change for you under this plan is the amount of money you will spend on premiums.  That will be less than what you're spending now."


Premiums have gone up on those who already have insurance, premiums haven't gone down, certainly not by the $2,500 he said they would go down by.




> When it came to health care premiums for the typical family, Obama said he would cut the annual cost by $2,500. Months before Obama took office, a New York Times reporter dubbed it one of the most audacious pledges of the campaign.
> 
> We reached out to David Cutler, an economist who advised Obama during the 2008 campaign and helped calculate the $2,500 figure that appeared in Obama's speeches. He said the calculation encompassed total health care costs, not just premiums. These would include out-of-pocket costs, employer-provided insurance costs, and taxes to pay for public insurance programs.
> 
> ...



The Obameter: Cut the cost of a typical family's health insurance premium by up to $2,500 a year | PolitiFact


Here is obama saying the same:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o65vMUk5so#t=12[/ame]


And again in writing if you can't access the vid.


August 6, 2008

    OBAMA: A system where we're gonna work with your employers to lower your premiums by up to $2,500 per family per year.

October 4, 2008

    OBAMA: We will start by reducing premiums by as much as $2,500 per family.

September 6, 2008

    OBAMA: Here's what change is saying to people who already have health insurance and the employers who are providing it: We'll work to lower your premiums by up to $2,500 per family per year. 

May 3, 2008

    OBAMA: I also have a health care plan that would save the average family $2,500 on their premiums.

January 3, 2008

    OBAMA: And if you already have health care, then we're gonna reduce costs an average of $2,500 per family on premiums.


October 7, 2008

    OBAMA: We're gonna work with your employer to lower the costs of your premiums by up to $2,500 a year.

Campaign Ad

    OBAMA: And we'll cut the costs of a typical family's health care by up to $2,500 per year.

March 14, 2008

    OBAMA: And if you've got health care, we're gonna work with your employer to lower your premiums by $2,500 per family per year.

February 23, 2008

    OBAMA: And we will lower premiums for the typical family by $2,500 a year.

June 17, 2007

    OBAMA: And cut the cost of health care by up to $2,500 per family.

August 17, 2008

    OBAMA: And if you already have health care, then we're gonna work with your employer to lower your premiums by up to $2,500 per family per year.

Campaign Ad

    EVAN BAYH: Barack's policies will provide health care cost reductions of about $2,500 for the typical family. 

June 27, 2008

    OBAMA: It's time to bring down the typical family's premium by about $2,500. And it's time to bring down the costs for the entire country. 

February 19, 2008

    OBAMA: And if you already have health insurance, we will lower your premiums by $2,500 per family per year.

April 22, 2008

    OBAMA: We're gonna work with your employer through a catastrophic reinsurance plan to lower premiums by $2,500 per family per year.

October 15, 2008

    OBAMA: The only thing we're gonna try to do is lower costs so that those cost savings are passed on to you. And we estimate we can cut the average family's premium by about $2,500 a year.

March 1, 2008

    OBAMA: We'll work with your employer to lower your premiums by $2,500 per family per year.

Campaign Ad

    NARRATOR: Barack Obama will provide rural America with affordable health care, and save the typical American family $2,500 a year.

May 30, 2008

    OBAMA: And reduces every family's premiums by as much as $2,500. 

April 20, 2008

    OBAMA: If your employer does offer you health care, then we're gonna work with your employer to lower premiums by up to $2,500 per family per year.

March 13, 2008

    OBAMA: And cut the cost of a typical family's premiums by up to $2,500 per family per year.

FREEDOM EDEN: Obama: 20 Promises for $2,500



You got a plan from the (un)aca. Do you get a subsidy?


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## Zoom-boing (May 11, 2014)

Just talked to my brother.  You know, the one who had an individual catastrophic policy that he paid $170/month low deductible for and that obama magically allowed him to keep until now.  He just got his letter from BC .... for the plan that they are saying is close to his old plan he will now be paying $500 dollars a month with a $6,000 deductible.

If health insurance wasn't affordable prior to this train wreck how the hell is it affordable now??


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## william the wie (May 11, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> Just talked to my brother.  You know, the one who had an individual catastrophic policy that he paid $170/month no deductible for and that obama magically allowed him to keep until now.  He just got his letter from BC .... for the plan that they are saying is close to his old plan he will now be paying $500 dollars a month with a $6,000 deductible.
> 
> If health insurance wasn't affordable prior to this train wreck how the hell is it affordable now??


That is slowly getting out. But the killer will be the drip, drip, drip of bad news on many fronts.


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## emilynghiem (May 13, 2014)

Dear [MENTION=36822]billyerock1991[/MENTION]:
Thanks for the progress! at least I am not being confused with a different person.
As for different websites, it is the other way around, billy.

I take issues from my real life, trying to live in a politically historic district,
and paste THAT online, filling up my own websites, and also forums like this
with the same garbage, which has been going on for the 20 years I have volunteered.

Glad you find this funny, it is so sad I have written it as Political Satire.

Unfortunately, billy, it is real.
If you have questions for my friend Daron, he has nothing to gain by lying.
As a Democrat no one will listen to his story, not even you, so there is no political gain.

Note: To clarify your point, because his condition is longterm and requires a year for the next stage of medical treatment, there is NO WAY the ER can take care of this.

They will refer him elsewhere that can, and that costs money.

I had another friend whose cancer was not treated properly in time through the county system, and it cost him time that sped up the spread of cancer and shortened his remaining time.

Sorry to say, the health care bill did not solve any of these problems.
There were there before, and they are still here; because the issue of service provision was not addressed; only getting more people signed up under insurance plans.

So the people this helps get help, the people this doesn't help don't get help,
and the people who don't agree with paying for a new system that doesn't help everyone
are pissed off on all sides -- both the Singlepayer folks and the free market folks who aren't represented by this set up, but are forced to pay for insurance under terms none of us agreed to.



billyerock1991 said:


> emily you need to stop copying your post from that weird web site you go to  all the time and paste it here as if it has some sort of value... these
> alleged scenarios of yours are funny at best
> 
> the guy said he had to pay his deductible first before he could get his meds... that's a lie ... I know it, they know it ... for somebody having to pay for their deductible first and not get health care that's a lie too .... all they have to do is show up in any emergency room and they will take him in and fix the problem .... then they disguss the deductible  if they lost their job thanks to obama care they can go on medicaid ... so I don't buy your poor poor pitiful A B AND C  scenarios ... you were trying to make it as if it were some real person, I know its made up...


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## billyerock1991 (May 14, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> Dear [MENTION=36822]billyerock1991[/MENTION]:
> Thanks for the progress! at least I am not being confused with a different person.
> As for different websites, it is the other way around, billy.
> 
> ...



you talk about ACA health care and yet its only been in existents for 5 months ... that's why when I see your story, and that's what it is a story, as bull shit... If he has his insurance through his company, he willt get screw out of anything through the ACA... if he is in his companies insurance  program  he will get fuck by his insurer ... in 2015 that will be the end of that ... you see he isn't any part of the ACA right now ... you can try to tell me that you get screw by the ACA now,  I've bee fucked by the best insurers before the ACA was here ... now that the ACA is here I get the best health care Ive ever had ... so you can tap dance around your bull shit stories on how the ACA is bad, I won't buy it ... Yesterday gallup poll posted that 61% of the american people have said they are  happy with the ACA where only 38% aren't ... that too will change ...people who are using it now are getting great service and they are happy with it now ... you can' try all you bullshit scenarios you want, nobody on the ACA insurance programs will buy it ...


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## billyerock1991 (May 14, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



you do love to lie don't you Zoom ding-a-ling do you see the word I promise ??? didn't think so ... your dialog here is edited, you do know that don't ya???  I do...


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## Zoom-boing (May 14, 2014)

billyerock1991 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



Why yes, yes I do.   Right here, as posted and linked above:



> *I have made a solemn pledge that I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family's premiums by up to $2500 a year. That's not simply a matter of policy or ideology &#8211; it's a moral commitment*.



A Politics of Conscience

obama not only promised to cut the typical family's premium by $2,500/yr, he went even further ... it wasn't policy or ideology, he made a moral commitment. But he didn't sign any such law that would cut the typical family's premium, did he? His promise (pledge) was a lie.

And again he says it here, also quoted and linked above:



> *When it came to health care premiums for the typical family, Obama said he would cut the annual cost by $2,500. Months before Obama took office, a New York Times reporter dubbed it one of the most audacious pledges of the campaign.
> *
> We reached out to David Cutler, an economist who advised Obama during the 2008 campaign and helped calculate the $2,500 figure that appeared in Obama's speeches. He said the calculation encompassed total health care costs, not just premiums. These would include out-of-pocket costs, employer-provided insurance costs, and taxes to pay for public insurance programs.
> 
> ...



The Obameter: Cut the cost of a typical family's health insurance premium by up to $2,500 a year | PolitiFact


Your lack of reading comprehension is deplorable so I made the font really big.  You know, so you wouldn't miss what obama actually said.  In his own words.  

Premiums for the typical family have NOT gone down $2,500, have NOT gone down some number up to $2,500, have NOT gone down at all.  They are increasing at a greater rate than if the (un)aca hadn't passed.  

I am taking your lack of response to my showing your "aca increasing premiums by 120%" statement is just pure stupidity on your part as an admission that you're a fucking idiot.  

The video links and dialog speak for themselves.  obama repeatedly said that premiums for the typical family would be lowered/reduced by up to $2,500 or by $2,500 ... I guess which of those depended on what the teleprompter said that day.  He PLEDGED it.  He made a MORAL COMMITMENT to it.  He RAN ON IT.  

He. Is. A. Liar.  

Period.

You failed to answer my question:  You got a plan from the (un)aca. Do you get a subsidy?


Poor, poor bill-ye-teh-zombies-have-taken-over-yer-brain.


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## Meister (May 14, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



He has admitted that others are subsidizing his plan when he said his premiums have been lowered considerably.  
I'm thinking that he's still on his mommy's and daddy's plan, though.


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## Zoom-boing (May 14, 2014)

Meister said:


> He has admitted that others are subsidizing his plan when he said his premiums have been lowered considerably.
> I'm thinking that he's still on his mommy's and daddy's plan, though.



No, he's close to retirement age.  

Just where does he think the money for his subsidy is coming from?  Government ... like what, they just pull it out of their bums?

How does he not make the connection that millions of people's premiums have increased dramatically in order to pay for all the additional mandated benefits that are now required, the fees that the gov't is now charging insurance companies, all those who are being subsidized, all those with pre-existing conditions who are not paying their fair share, the 20+ taxes that are in the bill.  How can a human being possibly be so freakin' dense as to _not_ get this??


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## Meister (May 14, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > He has admitted that others are subsidizing his plan when he said his premiums have been lowered considerably.
> ...



Willfully


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## asterism (May 14, 2014)

Zoom-boing said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > He has admitted that others are subsidizing his plan when he said his premiums have been lowered considerably.
> ...



He doesn't care.  He will when the system collapses, but that'll be blamed on republicans too.


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## william the wie (May 14, 2014)

Meister said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...


The technical term is confirmation bias. This is the belief of Jim Cramer's viewers that self sodomy in 2000, again in the housing crash of 2006, the meltdown of 2008 and now with Obama delivering on his campaign promises about healthcare the GOP, illuminati or masons are plotting against them.


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## Spoonman (May 15, 2014)

how many victims will this runaway train claim?

Total debacle as Obamacare failures cost North Dakota company $73m in losses - NaturalNews.com


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## Spoonman (May 15, 2014)

the old bait and switch.  obamacare sure has hooked a bunch of liberal suckers

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-increases-obamacare-premiums-deductibles-100000679.html


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## william the wie (May 15, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> the old bait and switch.  obamacare sure has hooked a bunch of liberal suckers
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-increases-obamacare-premiums-deductibles-100000679.html


Three things your source did not zero in on (perhaps due to lack of accessible data) and they are probably more important than the important point he did focus on:

The economic impact of Obamacare goes way beyond overpriced, oversubsidized and for 90% of the population vastly inferior healthcare insurance.

Both wages and employment will go down in the medical field. This has already started but it will get bigger and drive down the economy. While I doubt that it will actually create Meltdown II: bigger and badder than the first that story will become ever easier to sell to the voters.

Rent seeking patients and practitioners are not yet really organized by something like Angie's list which is being advertised by the screen I'm on. That will be a noticeable problem by November 2016.

Third mostly blue and purple states are in danger of default, 5-10 depending on the criteria used for the danger threshold. All three of the above factors above increase the probability of default by some, as yet unknown, amount.

So, I think that the current focus in misplaced.


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## Amelia (May 21, 2014)

Critics call Obama funding plan for health insurer losses a 'bailout'*-*Los Angeles Times



> The Obama administration has quietly adjusted key provisions of its signature healthcare law to potentially make billions of additional taxpayer dollars available to the insurance industry if companies providing coverage through the Affordable Care Act lose money.
> 
> The move was buried in hundreds of pages of new regulations issued late last week. It comes as part of an intensive administration effort to hold down premium increases for next year, a top priority for the White House as the rates will be announced ahead of this fall's congressional elections.
> 
> ...


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## Spoonman (May 22, 2014)

heads should roll for this.  this is a total abuse of power.  this is what government has come too?  so much for for the people.  disgusting

Obama Administration Just Got Caught in a Massive Lie ... - Fox Nation


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## william the wie (May 22, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> heads should roll for this.  this is a total abuse of power.  this is what government has come too?  so much for for the people.  disgusting
> 
> Obama Administration Just Got Caught in a Massive Lie ... - Fox Nation


This is another gimme to the GOP. I guess the great right wing conspiracy not only exists but got their top dirty tricks operative in the Oval office as a D.


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## Amelia (May 24, 2014)

Long but great read:

They Had a Dream | The Weekly Standard



> Rule by experts comes a cropper
> 
> They had a dream. For almost a hundred years now, the famed academic-artistic-and-punditry industrial complex has dreamed of a government run by their kind of people (i.e., nature&#8217;s noblemen), whose intelligence, wit, and refined sensibilities would bring us a heaven on earth. Their keen intellects would cut through the clutter as mere mortals&#8217; couldn&#8217;t. They would lift up the wretched, oppressed by cruel forces. Above all, they would counter the greed of the merchants, the limited views of the business community, and the ignorance of the conformist and dim middle class.
> 
> ...


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## Spoonman (May 27, 2014)

well now that obamacare is finally up and running it looks like the old addage money talks,  bullshit walks is holding true

A Labor Union Prepares To Strike, As Obamacare Ups Health Insurance Costs By 5.0-12.5% - Forbes


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## Meister (May 27, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> well now that obamacare is finally up and running it looks like the old addage money talks,  bullshit walks is holding true
> 
> A Labor Union Prepares To Strike, As Obamacare Ups Health Insurance Costs By 5.0-12.5% - Forbes



I don't feel sorry for organized labor one bit.  Finally, liberalism has caught up to them, and they don't like it.  They could have listened long ago and figured out what we knew all along.


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## Spoonman (May 27, 2014)

I thought the objective was for everyone to have health insurance?  but I guess that isn't really the democrats end goal.  it's more about controlling the industry and deciding what you should have for you.

Obamacare Fines Employers Giving Workers Health Care Help | The Daily Caller


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## william the wie (May 28, 2014)

When the Ds lose the unions they lose period.


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## Antares (May 28, 2014)

william the wie said:


> When the Ds lose the unions they lose period.



Which is why Union money is NEVER included as "bad" money in Campaign Finance Reform.


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## Spoonman (May 29, 2014)

lets hope the 72% speak with their votes in november

http://www.mainstreet.com/article/f...-worth-it-72-americans?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO


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## Spoonman (May 31, 2014)

This is going to become a major problem, or I should say an even bigger problem than it already is.  so many top care facilities are excluded from obamacare, ie sloan kettering, and so many more are opting out.  that number will continue to grow.  you'll have a plan you can't afford to use and no doctors to take it anyway

Cancer Survivor's Obamacare Plan Doesn't Cover A Single Doctor In 400 Miles | The Daily Caller


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## Manonthestreet (May 31, 2014)

[ame=http://youtu.be/7FoyREgDH_8]KTEN-TX: Cancer Survivor Loses Doctor After Signing Up For ObamaCare - YouTube[/ame]
See just like the VA....you are saved now citizen


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## william the wie (May 31, 2014)

This will cause problems in the fall and in 2016.


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## midcan5 (May 31, 2014)

Ninety nine pages of whining about something every moral, considerate person would be proud to support. America grows sadder as the whiners of the right and the money that manages their minds wins elections for morons who suckle at the teat of government while they do nothing, nothing at all.  Whine on whiny Americans whine on.


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## Meister (May 31, 2014)

midcan5 said:


> Ninety nine pages of whining about *something every moral, considerate person would be proud to support.* America grows sadder as the whiners of the right and the money that manages their minds wins elections for morons who suckle at the teat of government while they do nothing, nothing at all.  Whine on whiny Americans whine on.



Just like abortions.  Moral and considerate?  I laugh at you.
I get tired of you people who try and take the self proclaimed high ground on obummercare, and yet turn around and proclaim that the killing of life of an unborn baby is a woman's right.
Moral and considerate....yeah right.

Can you say hypocrite?  I bet you can.


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## williepete (May 31, 2014)

Amelia said:


> Long but great read:
> 
> They Had a Dream | The Weekly Standard
> 
> ...



Great read Amelia. Thanks for posting. 

_"The Affordable Care Act looked for advice to academics, not governors, and proposed the state takeover of an industrial complex responsible for one-sixth of the gross national product based *not on what had been proved to work through experience, but on what some intellectuals had guessed might work*. If a camel is a horse designed by a committee, this camel was a 2,801-page non-bestseller filled with labyrinthine riddles that nobody seemed to know how to solve. To insure approximately 18 million out of 300-plus million Americans (they confessed the plan would still leave 20 million uninsured), they proposed to spend trillions on a reengineering of the entire system that would in time cause 80 to 100 million of the currently insured to lose and to seek new insurance."_


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## Spoonman (Jun 12, 2014)

Despite Spin, Americans Still Staunchly Opposed To Obamacare | The Daily Caller

some things never change


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## william the wie (Jun 12, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Despite Spin, Americans Still Staunchly Opposed To Obamacare | The Daily Caller
> 
> some things never change


The rent-seeking migrations of PCPs, subsidy eligible and non-subsidy eligible patients has not yet begun.

The employer mandate has not yet begun. This slow motion roll out in 2016 is going to hurt in 2016.


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## Antares (Jun 13, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Despite Spin, Americans Still Staunchly Opposed To Obamacare | The Daily Caller
> ...



It's looking like the small employer mandate may never be implemented.


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## william the wie (Jun 13, 2014)

I'm beginning to think that large parts of the entire bill will never be implemented.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 13, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> Despite Spin, Americans Still Staunchly Opposed To Obamacare | The Daily Caller
> 
> some things never change



Yeah, it's called human nature and "free will."

Natural law by which human beings do not agree to be "forced by govt" to 
do or manage things we normally manage better on our own by free will.

What baffles me is that liberal Democrats fight to the end over "freedom of choice"
but have zero concept when it comes to free choice in health care. ????


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## william the wie (Jun 13, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Despite Spin, Americans Still Staunchly Opposed To Obamacare | The Daily Caller
> ...


You'll have to wait until 2016 or 17 for that to shake out.


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## Spoonman (Jun 19, 2014)

emilynghiem said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Despite Spin, Americans Still Staunchly Opposed To Obamacare | The Daily Caller
> ...



freedom of choice for their agenda items.  beyond that, they love their infringements


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## Spoonman (Jun 19, 2014)

anybody else getting sick of supporting those who refuse to support themselves?

Left: Obamacare Rate Shock Doesn't Matter, Because Other People's Money Will Pay For It - Forbes


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## william the wie (Jun 19, 2014)

Spoonman said:


> anybody else getting sick of supporting those who refuse to support themselves?
> 
> Left: Obamacare Rate Shock Doesn't Matter, Because Other People's Money Will Pay For It - Forbes


While I agree with you longrun, pocketbook voting against this POS will unfold overtime as more of this idiocy goes online. Obama et al mislearned the lessons of catastrophic healthcare under Reagan and Hillarycare under Clinton. Therefore the negative reaction will be delayed.


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## Spoonman (Jun 24, 2014)

Who wins?  Insurance  companies.  Who loses?  the working class.  welcome to the new america

Obamacare's Good For Big Insurers, Most Customers Rate Hikes | The Daily Caller


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## Spoonman (Jun 25, 2014)

Bad news continues. the benefits of this plan have been overstated at every turn

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/precisely-crushed-gdp-131412713.html


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## william the wie (Jun 25, 2014)

This will get much worse but in steps. Services such as medical care are wages.


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