# Copper Coil- Cheap and effective sustainable energy (OR make it yourself!)



## JD_2B

Go Sun Solutions - Make Your Own Air Conditioner

Source: Renewable Energy UK 
20% of all electricity in the USA is used by *air conditioning* units. The power consumption of air conditioners renders them incompatible with all but the largest domestic renewable energy systems, and so people living _off-grid_ typically have to do without. In this article we will look at how a very cheap and simple room cooler can be put together, powered by a *12 Volt battery* or directly from a PV *Solar Panel*.


*DIY Groundsource Heat Pump Cool Fan*

 Once you dig more than a few feet down, the temperature of the ground is pretty much constant throughout the year. This is the key to *Geothermal (Groundsource) Heat Pumps* - systems which keep buildings cool in the summer and warm in the winter with great efficiency. Using this fact it is possible to put together a simple room cooler using nothing more than thin *plastic tubing*, a small *circulation pump*, a *fan*, and a few fittings.






A coil of plastic tubing is buried 1+ metres below ground level where it will find consistent temperatures of around 11-12 degrees Celcius year-round. It is connected through a hole drilled in the wall (or through a window / ventilation brick) to the fan via a *closed loop*. The hose, or ideally *copper tubing* is wound around in a spiral at the back of the fan, so the air drawn into the fan is pre-cooled to below the ambient summer air temperature.




  The tubing can be attached to the grille of the fan very easily using *cable ties*. 

 Anti-freeze or heavily salted water is ideal to act as the *coolant* pumped around the system since it will not freeze when the system lies dormant in the winter. Since the air in the room is hotter than the air in the ground, the _coolant_ takes heat from the air before it is blown out from the fan and then deposits it in the ground. This set up is a basic *heat exchanger*.

  Any small *circulation pump* can be used to move the coolant around the system. 12V aquarium pumps can be perfect, as can the pumps typically used in *solar water heating systems*, and in ornamental garden water fountains. All of these pumps have very low power consumption, and can be powered with a *12V battery*.


*Super Cooling Homemade Air Conditioner*





  If more *rapid cooling* is required, and energy efficiency is not such an issue, then an alternative to using the ground as a source of cool is to use an insulated container filled with *icy salt water*. Using a copper coil in the icy water, a copper coil at the front AND rear of the fan, and flexible tubing to complete the loop (via the pump), a hot room can be cooled to a comportable level in 10-20 minutes. 

ClimateMaster Inc. - ClimateMaster Residential Products


*Residential Geothermal Systems*

Quick Links Business Center HomeCommercial Products - Geothermal Applications - How Do Geothermal Systems Work? - Typical Geothermal Installation - System Comparisons - Water-Source Applications - Typical Water Source Installation - Commercial Literature - Commercial Engineering Guides - Commercial Wiring Diagrams - Commercial Software - LEED & Green BuildingContact UsEmployment OpportunitiesResidential Products - Geothermal Video - How Does Geothermal Work? - Residential Accessories - Residential Literature - Residential Software - Residential Geothermal SystemsTax Savings​
*Highlighting Search Terms*: geothermal generator heat 			  			 				Search Again *

*

 The earth absorbs almost 50% of all solar energy and remains a nearly constant temperature of 50°F to 70°F depending on geographic location. Working with an underground loop system, a ClimateMaster geothermal unit utilizes this constant temperature to exchange energy between your home and the earth as needed for heating and cooling.

Click here to watch a video about how geothermal systems work.

 In winter, water circulating inside a sealed loop absorbs heat from the earth and carries it to the unit. Here it is compressed to a higher temperature and sent as warm air to your indoor system for distribution throughout your home. 

 In the summer, the system reverses and expels heat from your home to the cooler earth via the loop system. This heat exchange process is not only natural, but is a truly ingenious and highly efficient way to create a comfortable climate in your home.




​ 





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## Mr. H.

Looks like a glorified swamp cooler.


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## mdn2000

Nice drawing, nice theory, I dont buy it but I wont try and tear it apart. I imagine if it really worked we would see these things everywhere. Pumping of fluid would be the biggest concern, pumping fluid takes a tremendous amount of energy.

Anyhow, let me know when you get it hooked up, I would love to see if it works. I will be the last one to buy one.

One thing though, if we built Nuclear power plants there would be no need for this. Problem is power companies want huge profits which green energy gives them, massive subsidies and tax breaks. Many power companies are owned by corporations that supply the materials to make the fiberglass to make windmills, so the corporations are getting rich selling the materials to build windmills in which they than get a tax break and subsidy to install, they also get permission to raise electrical rates to cover the cost fo the windmill. Of course at best they will get 1% of the power from expensive windmills the rest will come from the same old cheap sources of power, but marked up in price justified by windmills.

*Green energy is nothing but a giant scam*


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## Old Rocks

mdn2000 said:


> Nice drawing, nice theory, I dont buy it but I wont try and tear it apart. I imagine if it really worked we would see these things everywhere. Pumping of fluid would be the biggest concern, pumping fluid takes a tremendous amount of energy.
> Anyhow, let me know when you get it hooked up, I would love to see if it works. I will be the last one to buy one.
> 
> One thing though, if we built Nuclear power plants there would be no need for this. Problem is power companies want huge profits which green energy gives them, massive subsidies and tax breaks. Many power companies are owned by corporations that supply the materials to make the fiberglass to make windmills, so the corporations are getting rich selling the materials to build windmills in which they than get a tax break and subsidy to install, they also get permission to raise electrical rates to cover the cost fo the windmill. Of course at best they will get 1% of the power from expensive windmills the rest will come from the same old cheap sources of power, but marked up in price justified by windmills.
> 
> *Green energy is nothing but a giant scam*



Real dumbass thing to say. I heat my swimming pool with a solar array. On the north side of the house LOL. And the cost of the pumping of the water is an infintismal fraction of what it would cost me to heat it with electricity.

In the 50s and early 60s, the statements were made that nuclear would be too cheap to meter, and was completely failsafe. 

Then came the bills and Three Mile Island. 

Nobody is buying that shit anymore. Nuclear is clean, but expensive and not foolproof.


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## mdn2000

Old Crock, you keeping track of the amount of times you dont back up anything you say, I will have to make a thread just to keep track of every one of your giant gaffs.

Check this out for instance, in this thread you are so wrong, lets see you address this, so far you have ran away and hid from everything. As far as your swimming pool is concerned, everything I have challenged you on you have failed to support your position so based on your performance defending your threads I would say you are full of shit in regards to all of your claims.

So how much energy and what types does it take to produce a ton of fiberglass. Old Crock has no idea about this or anything else when challenged. 

Just take a look at this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/environment/92812-lol-7.html#post1696779


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## JD_2B

mdn2000 said:


> Nice drawing, nice theory, I dont buy it but I wont try and tear it apart. I imagine if it really worked we would see these things everywhere. Pumping of fluid would be the biggest concern, pumping fluid takes a tremendous amount of energy.
> 
> Anyhow, let me know when you get it hooked up, I would love to see if it works. I will be the last one to buy one.
> 
> One thing though, if we built Nuclear power plants there would be no need for this. Problem is power companies want huge profits which green energy gives them, massive subsidies and tax breaks. Many power companies are owned by corporations that supply the materials to make the fiberglass to make windmills, so the corporations are getting rich selling the materials to build windmills in which they than get a tax break and subsidy to install, they also get permission to raise electrical rates to cover the cost fo the windmill. Of course at best they will get 1% of the power from expensive windmills the rest will come from the same old cheap sources of power, but marked up in price justified by windmills.
> 
> *Green energy is nothing but a giant scam*




I think you are at a point that you will only believe whatever you want to believe, rather than what great advances technology has made that might actually be sustainable.If I wanted to invest 20 grand, I could do that, and have a nice new car out in the driveway...
I don't own my home, though, so right now its not an option. I have several years before that happens. =(


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## eagleseven

It's a clever idea, but a single fan would only cool off a small apartment, at best. This might be practical in 3rd-world countries, but here in the US, people would rather have central AC hooked up to some solar cells.


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## Mr. H.

SUCKERS!


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## JD_2B

eagleseven said:


> It's a clever idea, but a single fan would only cool off a small apartment, at best. This might be practical in 3rd-world countries, but here in the US, people would rather have central AC hooked up to some solar cells.



Is that as far as you guys got? The picture of the do it yourself project???

Besides.. there is a reason why the fan is connected to the ducts under the floorboards.. 

Did anyone see the massive copper piping below? That one is not do it yourself, and many people in the UK have this kind of system, and it powers their whole house.

ClimateMaster Inc. - ClimateMaster Residential Products


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## eagleseven

JD_2B said:


> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a clever idea, but a single fan would only cool off a small apartment, at best. This might be practical in 3rd-world countries, but here in the US, people would rather have central AC hooked up to some solar cells.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that as far as you guys got? The picture of the do it yourself project???
> 
> Besides.. there is a reason why the fan is connected to the ducts under the floorboards..
> 
> Did anyone see the massive copper piping below? That one is not do it yourself, and many people in the UK have this kind of system, and it powers their whole house.
> 
> ClimateMaster Inc. - ClimateMaster Residential Products
Click to expand...

How do you repair damage to the underground coil? This could prove very problematic to areas prone to earthquakes, or animals that burrow. And any heating system will eventually need maintenance over time...how deep of a hole would you need to dig to access the "professional" geothermal system?

Not to mention it would be dangerous in cities built near sea level (New Orleans).


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## JD_2B

eagleseven said:


> JD_2B said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a clever idea, but a single fan would only cool off a small apartment, at best. This might be practical in 3rd-world countries, but here in the US, people would rather have central AC hooked up to some solar cells.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that as far as you guys got? The picture of the do it yourself project???
> 
> Besides.. there is a reason why the fan is connected to the ducts under the floorboards..
> 
> Did anyone see the massive copper piping below? That one is not do it yourself, and many people in the UK have this kind of system, and it powers their whole house.
> 
> ClimateMaster Inc. - ClimateMaster Residential Products
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you repair damage to the underground coil? This could prove very problematic to areas prone to earthquakes, or animals that burrow. And any heating system will eventually need maintenance over time...how deep of a hole would you need to dig to access the "professional" geothermal system?
> 
> Not to mention it would be dangerous in cities built near sea level (New Orleans).
Click to expand...


As you can see, it is not necessary to have a big deep hole in order to create this system.
A coil can be created without a deep hole.. because it is a coil.
ClimateMaster Inc. - Water Source & Geothermal HVAC Compared to Other Systems







​


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## Charles Stucker

JD_2B said:


> As you can see, it is not necessary to have a big deep hole in order to create this system.
> A coil can be created without a deep hole.. because it is a coil.


A few points JD
1 - the pump is the critical stage in the rate of cooling - I am unsure if an aquarium pump could create the rate of flow required for some climates
2 - high groundwater would make installation difficult and maintenance impractically frequent
3 - the UK is a moderately cool place, all things considered, so the concept might not work as well in Mexico, for example.

Overall, for some places this would work nicely, but I suspect skepticism and incompetent amateur installation would make it hard to get moving in most areas.


----------



## mdn2000

JD_2B said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice drawing, nice theory, I dont buy it but I wont try and tear it apart. I imagine if it really worked we would see these things everywhere. Pumping of fluid would be the biggest concern, pumping fluid takes a tremendous amount of energy.
> 
> Anyhow, let me know when you get it hooked up, I would love to see if it works. I will be the last one to buy one.
> 
> One thing though, if we built Nuclear power plants there would be no need for this. Problem is power companies want huge profits which green energy gives them, massive subsidies and tax breaks. Many power companies are owned by corporations that supply the materials to make the fiberglass to make windmills, so the corporations are getting rich selling the materials to build windmills in which they than get a tax break and subsidy to install, they also get permission to raise electrical rates to cover the cost fo the windmill. Of course at best they will get 1% of the power from expensive windmills the rest will come from the same old cheap sources of power, but marked up in price justified by windmills.
> 
> *Green energy is nothing but a giant scam*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are at a point that you will only believe whatever you want to believe, rather than what great advances technology has made that might actually be sustainable.If I wanted to invest 20 grand, I could do that, and have a nice new car out in the driveway...
> I don't own my home, though, so right now its not an option. I have several years before that happens. =(
Click to expand...


You think, and who the fuck are you, what the hell do you know, a coil of wire in the ground for ten grand is a big joke. As far as what I believe, its what I know, I aint no electronic engineer but I have studied electronic theory, currently, no pun intended, I work in a field, again no pun intended that is based on the theory of inductive reactance, so dont tell me its what I believe, especially when I dont see you yapping your trap in the energy or environment threads in which I post.

how about some two pie  x and l, squared, I dont know much but I know a hell of alot, go buy a ten thousand dollar coil to bury in your yard and I will show all my freinds a moron. 

This idea is so great it has been an industry secret for years, you see the energy companies actually bury these copper coils under all the power plants, the power plants are just there to hide the real power source so us morons dont catch on, yep, you see a coal plant and its hiding a giant copper coil. Same with nuke, these things are so great if the secret gets out the evil corporations wont maike any money because we will all make power like they do.

morons, and more morons, all these completely stupid ideas, you would be better off making power from a potato.

You beleive what you want to beleive spending the 20k, thats right 20k, thats the cost to bury copper in your yard, go figure it out, go put your money where your mouth is, you wont do that, nope, not all, you want me to pay for you lack of intelligence, you want my tax money in your pocked so you can bury ten tons of copper in your yard. 

This is a great idea for the guy that owns the copper mine, it will take at least 10k in pennies to do this, which will drive the cost of pennies.

morons.

Sustainable, that is moronic, feel nice to say it dont it, but you need oil to run the trucks and equipment that mine for copper, what happens when you run out of oil, how you going to get the copper, how you going to smelt the copper, a copper furnace will take more than a dumb ass coil of wire, how do you create the materials you need, you use energy, more energy than you will need in lifetime, 10k of energy at the rate industry pays is more energy than a 100 people use in a year.

if you dont know the process to smelt copper, to refine copper, if you cant tell me now much and which types of energy is needed to make copper, if you cannot tell me the pollutants created processing copper, if you cannot list the trucks and equipment used, the chemicals used to strip the copper from the ore, if you cannot tell me what chemicals and how they are made, than your idea is nothing more than a moron's fantasy. 

I hope your pissed, I find it insulting that idiots have these ideas that require my tax money, I find it insulting that idiots continue to post an article about the end product as if copper coils grow on magic trees. 

Tell us the entire process from the raw material to the finished product and be sure to include the amount of energy used.

You cant and wont do it, hence I took this oppurtunity to really let you know how dumb you are and your idea is, of course if I see you post all this information in a relatively short period of time I will be the fool but based on other morons and their inability to tell me how much energy their idiotic ideas cost I must assume the dipshits in this thread are no different.

This is actually a conspiracy theory thread, there is not truth it it, just a dumb ass liberal marxist idea.


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## geauxtohell

It's an interesting concept, but I am afraid thermodynamics will always win this argument.

"You can't win, and you can't break even."


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## mdn2000

geauxtohell said:


> It's an interesting concept, but I am afraid thermodynamics will always win this argument.
> 
> "You can't win, and you can't break even."



The amount of energy needed to make copper kills this moronic idea.


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## Old Rocks

Mdn, you have repeatedly shown yourself to be a complete idiot.

The systems that JD has shown will work quite well in all climates, particularly hot ones. The temperature differance between the atmosphere and the ground below five feet is greater in hot climates than in cool ones.


----------



## mdn2000

Old Rocks said:


> Mdn, you have repeatedly shown yourself to be a complete idiot.
> 
> The systems that JD has shown will work quite well in all climates, particularly hot ones. The temperature differance between the atmosphere and the ground below five feet is greater in hot climates than in cool ones.



Great Old Crock, so to show you have not gone off half cocked again and seeing how you are so smart tell us how much energy and what types of energy it will take to make this system work. Maybe you can also tell us the true cost to the consumer, the figure given is not correct, tell us exactly how much this costs, total costs.

How come Old Crock runs from this post:



Old Rocks said:


> *Not a pipe dream, either. Already being done successfully.*
> 
> http://geoheat.oit.edu/bulletin/bull21-2/art1.pdf
> 
> On January 31, 1999, CalEnergy Operating Corp.
> (CalEnergy) unveiled a $400 million expansion of their
> geothermal power complex on the shores of the Salton Sea in
> southern California&#8217;s Imperial Valley. The new construction
> includes nearly 60 megawatts (MW) of new geothermal electrical
> capacity, and a unique project to &#8220;mine&#8221; commercialgrade
> zinc from geothermal brine produced for power
> generation. CalEnergy is a subsidiary of Mid-American
> Energy Holdings Co. (Des Moines, IA).
> CalEnergy currently operates eight geothermal power
> plants with a capacity of 288 net MW at the Salton Sea.
> Construction underway for completion by late-July includes
> Unit 5, a 49-MW facility that will utilize high-temperature
> waste brine from four of the company&#8217;s existing power plants
> to fuel the minerals recovery project and produce electricity.
> In addition, a 10-MW turbine will be on-line by mid-March to
> upgrade power production at CalEnergy&#8217;s Del Ranch and
> Vulcan power plants. Construction companies heading up the
> projects include Stone & Webster Engineering Corp. (Denver,
> CO) and Kvaener U.S., Inc. (San Ramon, CA), which are
> subcontracting work to local firms.
> Funded entirely by CalEnergy, the $200-million
> mineral recovery project will produce 30,000 metric tonnes of
> 99.99-percent pure zinc annually for Cominco Ltd. under a
> contract signed last September.







mdn2000 said:


> Here is a link to one source  showing that Old Crock posted an old article that is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.osti.gov/geothermal/servlets/purl/895237-Vp8ett/895237.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The zinc recovery project was put online in 2002,
> but was shut down in 2004 due to technical problems
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2002, a zinc-extraction plant was completed in the
> Imperial Valley of California. It used electricity from
> geothermal power plants for the recovery of metal from
> geothermal brines (Clutter, 2000). The $400-million zinc
> project by MidAmerican Energy Holding Co. was supposed
> to extract 30,000 tonnes of zinc annually. The wastewater
> from eight power plants, having 600 ppm of zinc was
> utilized. Unfortunately, the plant, which ran until 2004,
> produced less than 50% of capacity and lost $69 million on
> the project (GRC, 2004d). It is now shut down and being
> dismantled due to poor economics and technical problems.
> MidAmerican is now looking at silica extraction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are more problems with the unreliable Geothermal energy, imagine a geothermal power plant producing such a tiny amount of power having an uncontollable event. The uncontrollable event was the brine eating through a 48" pipe until it literally explodes spilling toxic brine all over the imperial valley's Asparagus fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On July 10, 2003, the Salton Sea IV Project&#8217;s 40 megawatt turbine went out of service due to an uncontrollable force event.
> Such uncontrollable force event ended, and the Salton Sea IV Project&#8217;s turbine returned to service, on September 17, 2003.
> Edison failed to recognize the uncontrollable force event and, as such, has not paid amounts otherwise due and owing under
> the Salton Sea IV power purchase agreement totaling $2.5 million. Salton Sea Power Generation, L.P., with Fish Lake Power
> LLC, owner of the Salton Sea IV Project, served notices of error on Edison for such unpaid amounts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So from a "_win, win_" to a multi-million dollar loss, Old Crock I must say if you prove anything its that Green Energy is too expensive.
> 
> Hey, check out the amount of time this power plant was down, Old Crock you did not calculate this time into your costs either. Looks to me that Geothermal is too expensive and unreliable.
> 
> Now how about how much energy and what types does it take to produce one ton of fiberglass.
Click to expand...


----------



## JD_2B

mdn2000 said:


> JD_2B said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice drawing, nice theory, I dont buy it but I wont try and tear it apart. I imagine if it really worked we would see these things everywhere. Pumping of fluid would be the biggest concern, pumping fluid takes a tremendous amount of energy.
> 
> Anyhow, let me know when you get it hooked up, I would love to see if it works. I will be the last one to buy one.
> 
> One thing though, if we built Nuclear power plants there would be no need for this. Problem is power companies want huge profits which green energy gives them, massive subsidies and tax breaks. Many power companies are owned by corporations that supply the materials to make the fiberglass to make windmills, so the corporations are getting rich selling the materials to build windmills in which they than get a tax break and subsidy to install, they also get permission to raise electrical rates to cover the cost fo the windmill. Of course at best they will get 1% of the power from expensive windmills the rest will come from the same old cheap sources of power, but marked up in price justified by windmills.
> 
> *Green energy is nothing but a giant scam*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are at a point that you will only believe whatever you want to believe, rather than what great advances technology has made that might actually be sustainable.If I wanted to invest 20 grand, I could do that, and have a nice new car out in the driveway...
> I don't own my home, though, so right now its not an option. I have several years before that happens. =(
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You think, and who the fuck are you, what the hell do you know, a coil of wire in the ground for ten grand is a big joke. As far as what I believe, its what I know, I aint no electronic engineer but I have studied electronic theory, currently, no pun intended, I work in a field, again no pun intended that is based on the theory of inductive reactance, so dont tell me its what I believe, especially when I dont see you yapping your trap in the energy or environment threads in which I post.
Click to expand...


Wow. OK I will go to your personal page, look up all of your personal posts, and respond to a few of them. Can ya please wipe your mouth, though.. the foam is getting on me!! 



> how about some two pie  x and l, squared, I dont know much but I know a hell of alot, go buy a ten thousand dollar coil to bury in your yard and I will show all my freinds a moron.



You do that, then. I will enjoy the savings. My environmental science professor immigrated from Ireland, and she was the one who told me about it in the first place. She has a Doctorate's degree, and she had this very same copper coil in her backyard. She would probably call you a bloody punk or some such thing, and fling her doctorate degree in your face, if you called her a moron. Plus you would probably flunk her class, out of sheer ignorance. Well, that is my opinion of this anyways. 



> This idea is so great it has been an industry secret for years, you see the energy companies actually bury these copper coils under all the power plants, the power plants are just there to hide the real power source so us morons dont catch on, yep, you see a coal plant and its hiding a giant copper coil. Same with nuke, these things are so great if the secret gets out the evil corporations wont maike any money because we will all make power like they do.



Blah blah blah.. Are all your posts like this??? 


> morons, and more morons, all these completely stupid ideas, you would be better off making power from a potato.



That is possible, also. 



> You beleive what you want to beleive spending the 20k, thats right 20k, thats the cost to bury copper in your yard, go figure it out, go put your money where your mouth is, you wont do that, nope, not all, you want me to pay for you lack of intelligence, you want my tax money in your pocked so you can bury ten tons of copper in your yard.



Nope.. Not at all. I have never used government rebates, for anything I have ever purchased, including my DTV thing which just sits in a corner collecting dust now. Who said anything about tax money anyways? Wow.. You are breathing some hot fire there.. have some iced tea.



> This is a great idea for the guy that owns the copper mine, it will take at least 10k in pennies to do this, which will drive the cost of pennies.



Oh they don't make pennies anymore. PS- It doesnt have to be made of actual copper to work....



> morons.



moron.



> Sustainable, that is moronic, feel nice to say it dont it, but you need oil to run the trucks and equipment that mine for copper, what happens when you run out of oil, how you going to get the copper, how you going to smelt the copper, a copper furnace will take more than a dumb ass coil of wire, how do you create the materials you need, you use energy, more energy than you will need in lifetime, 10k of energy at the rate industry pays is more energy than a 100 people use in a year.



Uhhh just use the numerous other alternative energy sources we have instead..to run the trucks..biomass, solar, etc..  And if underground coils can REPLACE the need for the oil for a lifetime, then why would you be so concerned about needing MORE oil then? Electric cars can also be used. Also, even if cars that run on oil WERE used, it would not make a difference, because geothermal energy (and wind energy) produces far more electricity than oil does, so it TOTALLY makes up for its production costs. 

Plus, you are dead wrong on your assertion that the carbon footprint to build it all would be more than the energy saved by these, also. Geothermal energy is VERY easy to achieve.. And biomass energy, too. All you do is just dump all your SHIT into a fucking WELL, the heat rises, and turns the turbine, and poof- energy. Grasp that. And what, you think that digging the hole and building the turbine is somehow going to take more energy than the well will save?
Well no- you would be wrong buddy..  



> if you dont know the process to smelt copper, to refine copper, if you cant tell me now much and which types of energy is needed to make copper, if you cannot tell me the pollutants created processing copper, if you cannot list the trucks and equipment used, the chemicals used to strip the copper from the ore, if you cannot tell me what chemicals and how they are made, than your idea is nothing more than a moron's fantasy.



Again, this process can be done using other metals as well.. and other tools. 
A watermill, for instance, can be made from wood, by hand- just needs to turn the turbine. This is why I want to live near a waterfall.
 A solar panel, a professional, working one, can be built in a day, from some basic reusable shit you find around the house and junkyard. 



> I hope your pissed, I find it insulting that idiots have these ideas that require my tax money, I find it insulting that idiots continue to post an article about the end product as if copper coils grow on magic trees.



I am certainly not pissed. I can see you are, though... So, just to add a little fuel to your ever-burning flame.. 

Here is how you can build a solar panel (to heat water only, just a simple one) in a day, for less than 50 bucks. 

Get your wood pieces, a 2 x 4, and a wooden board large enough to fasten to the back of the 2 x 4 frame, like a photo frame, but with more space. Nail all that shit together, to where you have a little wooden square bucket. Drill a couple holes on opposite sides, large enough to contain either copper or even PVC pipes (copper is better). Paint the inside of the bucket black. Insert copper pipes through the holes. Or, if you don't want to use copper, then go for a black vinyl bag, and affix some tubing to it.. Slap a piece of plexiglass on top (to be safe, but for you, regular glass will do) Set this up in direct sunlight. Within 2 hours, you can take a hot outdoor shower. No energy needed.. No power wasted. If you shower like this about 25-30 times, your investment paid itself off, simply by not having to reheat the water in the hot water tank every time. Another 5 showers, and the energy production costs vanish. Poof be gone. 










> Tell us the entire process from the raw material to the finished product and be sure to include the amount of energy used.



The amount of energy used may be great, but it does not compare to the amount of energy SAVED by this process of actually USING the copper coils. You can't refute this using facts.. so you just run your mouth and call everyone a moron. LMAO!!!



> You cant and wont do it, hence I took this oppurtunity to really let you know how dumb you are and your idea is, of course if I see you post all this information in a relatively short period of time I will be the fool but based on other morons and their inability to tell me how much energy their idiotic ideas cost I must assume the dipshits in this thread are no different.
> 
> This is actually a conspiracy theory thread, there is not truth it it, just a dumb ass liberal marxist idea.



Oppurtunity?? Beleif???

_You fucking moron._ Don't try to pretend to have been to college. A 5th grader would have you eating dust at their Elementary School spelling bee.


----------



## Thinman

A heat exchanger described in the OP works very well for reducing energy costs for people living in places like Las Vegas or Phoenix.  Electricity can run as high as 350/mon. in these areas.  Copper tubing 3/8 inch o. d. costs $2.49 per foot.  A 25 foot coil buried at a depth of 4 or 5 feet will reduce energy costs in a 5 room home by 10 to 12 percent.  Copper tubing will last many years in dry areas such as the desert southwest.  If your handy and can install it yourself, it's a no brainer.


----------



## mdn2000

Thinman said:


> A heat exchanger described in the OP works very well for reducing energy costs for people living in places like Las Vegas or Phoenix.  Electricity can run as high as 350/mon. in these areas.  Copper tubing 3/8 inch o. d. costs $2.49 per foot.  A 25 foot coil buried at a depth of 4 or 5 feet will reduce energy costs in a 5 room home by 10 to 12 percent.  Copper tubing will last many years in dry areas such as the desert southwest.  If your handy and can install it yourself, it's a no brainer.



10% at best, 5% in reality, yet what you describe is not the system that is being discussed. 

Is it this simple, I have my doubts, I know people who use heat pumps and they like them, great, its still not a solution not even by a long shot. 

Even with other forms of savings its still not a solution. 

So your electric bill goes from 300 to 270$, at the current rate we are installing windmills, solar, and geothermal in five years those same people will be paying 500$ a month or more. The cost of energy is already being seen in the price of food, many items have doubled in price, add the cost off higher electrical prices and the costs will go up more.

All the copper pipes buried in the ground wont change the cost that supermarkets pay to keep food cool.

Every solution being proposed raises the price of energy, raises the price of food. 

Everyone who beleives this work should try it and than post the results. 

As far as spending thousands on a complicated system, good luck.


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## mdn2000

> You fucking moron. Don't try to pretend to have been to college.



You like geothermal, go to the geothermal threads, I have shown repeatedly that nothing but lies are posted in support of geothermal, I even destroyed the cherry picked quotes of the recent MIT report.

Wind, useless, not one supporter will answer how much energy and which types of energy is needed to produce one ton of fiberglass, if you cant do this than you do not know what you are talking about.

Solar, useless, expensive, polluting, weak power.

Pick any topic you wish, start by not telling us what you believe but what the facts are, 

Geothermal has already been discussed in depth, your too late to add anything to that discussion.

Take on Wind. 

Prove your intelligence against mine, should be easy, I have not insulted 5th graders, I have not compared you to anything, its just stupid to keep using the term "sustainable" if you cannot prove you know anything about the production of wind, solar, or geothermal.


----------



## JD_2B

Why don't YOU post some facts that actually prove us all wrong, instead of going through all the threads and SAYING it is moronic and wrong and a waste of energy, then. 

Its you against us.. We are all waiting for YOU to stop running your trap and posting something of factual interest, instead.


----------



## Old Rocks

JD, you will have to wait to eternity for that. Mdn is nothing but a blathering troll. Best to ignore his idiocy.


----------



## mdn2000

Old Rocks said:


> JD, you will have to wait to eternity for that. Mdn is nothing but a blathering troll. Best to ignore his idiocy.





> JD_2B Why don't YOU post some facts that actually prove us all wrong, instead of going through all the threads and SAYING it is moronic and wrong and a waste of energy, then.
> 
> Its you against us.. We are all waiting for YOU to stop running your trap and posting something of factual interest, instead.



Old Crock, why do you continue to hide like a yellow chicken. You state lies and when busted you hide from the thread.

JD_2B, I have posted facts, you want this thread to contain the facts posted in ten other threads, okay, here is some facts to follow.

JD and Old Crock, why cant you provide one fact about the fiberglass used in wind energy, simpe, you dont know what your talking about. 

I have now provided a fact in the following;




mdn2000 said:


> Here is a link to one source  showing that Old Crock posted an old article that is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.osti.gov/geothermal/servlets/purl/895237-Vp8ett/895237.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Not a pipe dream, either. Already being done successfully.*
> 
> http://geoheat.oit.edu/bulletin/bull21-2/art1.pdf
> 
> On January 31, 1999, CalEnergy Operating Corp.
> (CalEnergy) unveiled a $400 million expansion of their
> geothermal power complex on the shores of the Salton Sea in
> southern California&#8217;s Imperial Valley. The new construction
> includes nearly 60 megawatts (MW) of new geothermal electrical
> capacity, and a unique project to &#8220;mine&#8221; commercialgrade
> zinc from geothermal brine produced for power
> generation. CalEnergy is a subsidiary of Mid-American
> Energy Holdings Co. (Des Moines, IA).
> CalEnergy currently operates eight geothermal power
> plants with a capacity of 288 net MW at the Salton Sea.
> Construction underway for completion by late-July includes
> Unit 5, a 49-MW facility that will utilize high-temperature
> waste brine from four of the company&#8217;s existing power plants
> to fuel the minerals recovery project and produce electricity.
> In addition, a 10-MW turbine will be on-line by mid-March to
> upgrade power production at CalEnergy&#8217;s Del Ranch and
> Vulcan power plants. Construction companies heading up the
> projects include Stone & Webster Engineering Corp. (Denver,
> CO) and Kvaener U.S., Inc. (San Ramon, CA), which are
> subcontracting work to local firms.
> Funded entirely by CalEnergy, the $200-million
> mineral recovery project will produce 30,000 metric tonnes of
> 99.99-percent pure zinc annually for Cominco Ltd. under a
> contract signed last September.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The zinc recovery project was put online in 2002,
> but was shut down in 2004 due to technical problems
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2002, a zinc-extraction plant was completed in the
> Imperial Valley of California. It used electricity from
> geothermal power plants for the recovery of metal from
> geothermal brines (Clutter, 2000). The $400-million zinc
> project by MidAmerican Energy Holding Co. was supposed
> to extract 30,000 tonnes of zinc annually. The wastewater
> from eight power plants, having 600 ppm of zinc was
> utilized. Unfortunately, the plant, which ran until 2004,
> produced less than 50% of capacity and lost $69 million on
> the project (GRC, 2004d). It is now shut down and being
> dismantled due to poor economics and technical problems.
> MidAmerican is now looking at silica extraction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are more problems with the unreliable Geothermal energy, imagine a geothermal power plant producing such a tiny
> 
> amount of power having an uncontollable event. The uncontrollable event was the brine eating through a 48" pipe until it
> 
> literally explodes spilling toxic brine all over the imperial valley's Asparagus fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On July 10, 2003, the Salton Sea IV Project&#8217;s 40 megawatt turbine went out of service due to an uncontrollable force
> 
> event.
> Such uncontrollable force event ended, and the Salton Sea IV Project&#8217;s turbine returned to service, on September 17, 2003.
> Edison failed to recognize the uncontrollable force event and, as such, has not paid amounts otherwise due and owing under
> the Salton Sea IV power purchase agreement totaling $2.5 million. Salton Sea Power Generation, L.P., with Fish Lake Power
> LLC, owner of the Salton Sea IV Project, served notices of error on Edison for such unpaid amounts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So from a "_win, win_" to a multi-million dollar loss, Old Crock I must say if you prove anything its that Green
> 
> Energy is too expensive.
> 
> Hey, check out the amount of time this power plant was down, Old Crock you did not calculate this time into your costs
> 
> either. Looks to me that Geothermal is too expensive and unreliable.
> 
> Now how about how much energy and what types does it take to produce one ton of fiberglass.
Click to expand...

So how much energy and what types does it take to produce one ton of fiberglass. 

I dont expect an answer, those who know nothing of what they speak of will not be able to provide even the simplist of facts, especailly when the answer destroys your ideas of green energy

shit I posted this same thing twice, it shows that geothemal is based on a lie, that green energy supporters will lie. It shows how geothermal has wasted hundreds of millions of dollars. 

I posted this twice now and JD acts for facts, what are you a moron, seriously, I post facts and you follow up asking for a fact, did you miss this, if so I will recant. If you wish to ignore everything and pretend I did not already post facts than I will simply point out how you cannot support your ideas.

So old crock, why dont you explain why you used an article that was ten years old, why you failed to name the salton sea plant that had a a design flaw, explain how old crock could than post the plant with a design flaw as a plant that is operating profitalbly when it is not.

Geothermal is too expensive, too polluting, and requires the liberals to rob the working class to pay for corporations massively expensive mistakes. Facts I have proven in threads, facts I have posted twice in this thread that JD and Old Crock have ignored.


----------



## JD_2B

LOL!! Aint that the truth, Old Rocks!! He is obsessed.. 

Hey mtd.. You haven't posted anything factual besides a discovery that zinc extraction is a stupid idea, and that some asshole in another factory did not do their job effectively enough to keep their turbine up to speed. 

WTF? 

OH MY GOD. THAT IS SOOOOO TRUE.  OMFG... SCARY!!! YES THE GOVT IS IN ON IT TOO AND CLEARLY MAKING MILLIONS OR BILLIONS OFF OF ALL OF THIS. HOLY SHIT..

LOL!! /Sarcasm


----------



## mdn2000

JD_2B said:


> LOL!! Aint that the truth, Old Rocks!! He is obsessed..
> 
> Hey mtd.. You haven't posted anything factual besides a discovery that zinc extraction is a stupid idea, and that some asshole in another factory did not do their job effectively enough to keep their turbine up to speed.
> 
> WTF?
> 
> OH MY GOD. THAT IS SOOOOO TRUE.  OMFG... SCARY!!! YES THE GOVT IS IN ON IT TOO AND CLEARLY MAKING MILLIONS OR BILLIONS OFF OF ALL OF THIS. HOLY SHIT..
> 
> LOL!! /Sarcasm



Now you are just a liar no different than old crock, I actually beleive you are old crock.

Why are you not pointing out where I have lied, 

Morons, how come only the morons support green energy, here old crock in drag as jd2b lies about his posts. 

Get a clue moron, you aint fooling anyone old crock.



mdn2000 said:


> Here is a link to one source  showing that Old Crock posted an old article that is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.osti.gov/geothermal/servlets/purl/895237-Vp8ett/895237.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Not a pipe dream, either. Already being done successfully.*
> 
> http://geoheat.oit.edu/bulletin/bull21-2/art1.pdf
> 
> On January 31, 1999, CalEnergy Operating Corp.
> (CalEnergy) unveiled a $400 million expansion of their
> geothermal power complex on the shores of the Salton Sea in
> southern Californias Imperial Valley. The new construction
> includes nearly 60 megawatts (MW) of new geothermal electrical
> capacity, and a unique project to mine commercialgrade
> zinc from geothermal brine produced for power
> generation. CalEnergy is a subsidiary of Mid-American
> Energy Holdings Co. (Des Moines, IA).
> CalEnergy currently operates eight geothermal power
> plants with a capacity of 288 net MW at the Salton Sea.
> Construction underway for completion by late-July includes
> Unit 5, a 49-MW facility that will utilize high-temperature
> waste brine from four of the companys existing power plants
> to fuel the minerals recovery project and produce electricity.
> In addition, a 10-MW turbine will be on-line by mid-March to
> upgrade power production at CalEnergys Del Ranch and
> Vulcan power plants. Construction companies heading up the
> projects include Stone & Webster Engineering Corp. (Denver,
> CO) and Kvaener U.S., Inc. (San Ramon, CA), which are
> subcontracting work to local firms.
> Funded entirely by CalEnergy, the $200-million
> mineral recovery project will produce 30,000 metric tonnes of
> 99.99-percent pure zinc annually for Cominco Ltd. under a
> contract signed last September.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The zinc recovery project was put online in 2002,
> but was shut down in 2004 due to technical problems
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 2002, a zinc-extraction plant was completed in the
> Imperial Valley of California. It used electricity from
> geothermal power plants for the recovery of metal from
> geothermal brines (Clutter, 2000). The $400-million zinc
> project by MidAmerican Energy Holding Co. was supposed
> to extract 30,000 tonnes of zinc annually. The wastewater
> from eight power plants, having 600 ppm of zinc was
> utilized. Unfortunately, the plant, which ran until 2004,
> produced less than 50% of capacity and lost $69 million on
> the project (GRC, 2004d). It is now shut down and being
> dismantled due to poor economics and technical problems.
> MidAmerican is now looking at silica extraction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are more problems with the unreliable Geothermal energy, imagine a geothermal power plant producing such a tiny amount of power having an uncontollable event. The uncontrollable event was the brine eating through a 48" pipe until it literally explodes spilling toxic brine all over the imperial valley's Asparagus fields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On July 10, 2003, the Salton Sea IV Projects 40 megawatt turbine went out of service due to an uncontrollable force event.
> Such uncontrollable force event ended, and the Salton Sea IV Projects turbine returned to service, on September 17, 2003.
> Edison failed to recognize the uncontrollable force event and, as such, has not paid amounts otherwise due and owing under
> the Salton Sea IV power purchase agreement totaling $2.5 million. Salton Sea Power Generation, L.P., with Fish Lake Power
> LLC, owner of the Salton Sea IV Project, served notices of error on Edison for such unpaid amounts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So from a "_win, win_" to a multi-million dollar loss, Old Crock I must say if you prove anything its that Green Energy is too expensive.
> 
> Hey, check out the amount of time this power plant was down, Old Crock you did not calculate this time into your costs either. Looks to me that Geothermal is too expensive and unreliable.
> 
> Now how about how much energy and what types does it take to produce one ton of fiberglass.
Click to expand...


Pollution and danger of geothermal coming next


----------



## JD_2B

OMG You are such a fucking PSYCHOPATH Dude..  

You are getting your ass called out on stalking Old Rocks.. Everyone sees it but you. Old Rocks is like your new obsession...  And every time you post in response to him, it's like a serenade: 


"You are an obsession.. you're my obsession.. Who do you want me to be, to make you sleep with me.. "


----------



## mdn2000

JD_2B said:


> OMG You are such a fucking PSYCHOPATH Dude..
> 
> You are getting your ass called out on stalking Old Rocks.. Everyone sees it but you. Old Rocks is like your new obsession...  And every time you post in response to him, it's like a serenade:
> 
> 
> "You are an obsession.. you're my obsession.. Who do you want me to be, to make you sleep with me.. "
> 
> . And yes- you are hard-up for Old Rocks. Stop stalking him, and then jacking off at all his posts, freak.
> 
> All you ever fucking do is stalk Old Rocks, and jerk off
> 
> Do you have a hard- on You are so fucking weird



And now you are obsessed with me, very flattering, I will post a pic for you in my profile, nice little love chant, your dirty filthy mouth is such a turn on, I cant wait to see all your responses.


----------



## Terra

Old Rocks said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice drawing, nice theory, I dont buy it but I wont try and tear it apart. I imagine if it really worked we would see these things everywhere. Pumping of fluid would be the biggest concern, pumping fluid takes a tremendous amount of energy.
> Anyhow, let me know when you get it hooked up, I would love to see if it works. I will be the last one to buy one.
> 
> One thing though, if we built Nuclear power plants there would be no need for this. Problem is power companies want huge profits which green energy gives them, massive subsidies and tax breaks. Many power companies are owned by corporations that supply the materials to make the fiberglass to make windmills, so the corporations are getting rich selling the materials to build windmills in which they than get a tax break and subsidy to install, they also get permission to raise electrical rates to cover the cost fo the windmill. Of course at best they will get 1% of the power from expensive windmills the rest will come from the same old cheap sources of power, but marked up in price justified by windmills.
> 
> *Green energy is nothing but a giant scam*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Real dumbass thing to say. I heat my swimming pool with a solar array. On the north side of the house LOL. And the cost of the pumping of the water is an infintismal fraction of what it would cost me to heat it with electricity.
> 
> In the 50s and early 60s, the statements were made that nuclear would be too cheap to meter, and was completely failsafe.
> 
> Then came the bills and Three Mile Island.
> 
> Nobody is buying that shit anymore. Nuclear is clean, but expensive and not foolproof.
Click to expand...


The "green" label is definitely false advertising to many well-intentioned consumers. But that's no reason to discourage sustainable, ethical, and healthy alternatives to our failed system.

I agree that the wind turbine models used in public media are inferior and over-rated, but let's not get wrapped up in this one concept of wind-power options. There are infinite possibilities to generate energy once we're able to harness them. 

That said, NUCLEAR IS NOT CLEAN. There's nothing "clean" about nuclear fallouts, widespread radiation (that's invisible), atomi bombs, and vast tracts of land uninhabitable for thousands of years. 

The real cost of nuclear power is extremely high if all the expenses are honestly taken into account. And there hasn't been a safe disposal of the nuclear waste 

But they say nuclear power contributes only small amount of greenhouse gases. Oh, ok.

Countries such as Italy, Germany, Belgium have already chosen to phase out nuclear power.


----------

