# Here's a tip: Don't



## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion


"In Japan, theres no custom of tipping. In fact, leaving a tip could potentially be considered rude, as the cost of the service is already supposed to be included in the price you pay. My American buddys attempt to follow his home custom in Japan ended in the delivery driver apologising profusely for not accepting the tip! In New York City, meanwhile, Japanese restaurants are bringing the no-tipping custom Stateside, as Restaurant Riki becomes the latest Manhattan establishment to ban their customers from tipping."


If only this would become a growing trend. If only...


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
  Tipping is a great tradition.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> Tipping is a great tradition.




It's a pain in the ass. Wait staff should just be paid like other workers. Try living in a place with no tipping for a while and you will not be eager to go back to all that nonsense.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> 
> 
> "In Japan, theres no custom of tipping. In fact, leaving a tip could potentially be considered rude, as the cost of the service is already supposed to be included in the price you pay. My American buddys attempt to follow his home custom in Japan ended in the delivery driver apologising profusely for not accepting the tip! In New York City, meanwhile, Japanese restaurants are bringing the no-tipping custom Stateside, as Restaurant Riki becomes the latest Manhattan establishment to ban their customers from tipping."
> ...



And those that do not switch to the no tip method will thrive while the others will stagnate and fail. 

In the United States tipping is an incentive to provide good service and up sell. That won't happen where tips are not expected.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
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Salespeople work on a commission. It's a proven system that works. Service providers are in the sales business, good ones make a great living, bad ones don't. Maybe paying the good like the bad makes sense to some, probably not to the good ones though


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
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Pain in the ass for you, not for others.
I gladly tip a good waitress/waiter. Equally, I gladly DO NOT tip a sh*tty one.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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Yep.
You run a business?
Generally most people don't recognize that wait staff are in sales. And sales are incented by commission and virtually always out earn other departments.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


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Management of one kind or another for 30+ years. Restaurant biz for first 5. 

Had some top flight sales people, and that's how addressed them. Several moved on to positions I could never dream of having. I am proud to say I helped them along their paths (even though they did all the hard work)


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## Mr Natural (Mar 26, 2014)

I like it!

I was in New Zealand back in the early '70s and tipping in a restaurant there was considered an insult to the owner, suggesting that he was not paying his staff enough.


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## Spiderman (Mar 26, 2014)

People who don't tip are cheap.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> I like it!
> 
> I was in New Zealand back in the early '70s and tipping in a restaurant there was considered an insult to the owner, suggesting that he was not paying his staff enough.



Same in Spain. Was there in 2011. No tipping, service sucked and no up selling (except coffee, but the wait for it was incredible)


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## PredFan (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
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I disagree with your statement about tipping being an incentive to provide good service.  Many servers see low tips as evidence that the tipper is a cheapskate instead of thinking they gave poor service.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

PredFan said:


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They will fail in the process. Sorry, most people tip for good service. Those that don't are the reason the system hiccups. 

I think the key to this is to also provide a bonus program for high performance. It wasn't uncommon back in the day, maybe it went the way of the horse and buggy now.


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## Delta4Embassy (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> 
> 
> "In Japan, theres no custom of tipping. In fact, leaving a tip could potentially be considered rude, as the cost of the service is already supposed to be included in the price you pay. My American buddys attempt to follow his home custom in Japan ended in the delivery driver apologising profusely for not accepting the tip! In New York City, meanwhile, Japanese restaurants are bringing the no-tipping custom Stateside, as Restaurant Riki becomes the latest Manhattan establishment to ban their customers from tipping."
> ...



I agree completely. Mandatory tips especially amount to a simple tax. In the case of optional tips I'm still against it but only because as the article says, you're already paying for the goods or service, paying more doesn't make any sense. Most outlandish idea being tipping a waitperson. That's what they were hired to do, I'm not sure I see how doing it efficiently or accurately amounts to exceptional service worthy of a tip. Do they get un-tipped for bad service?


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## Spiderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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Most people tip for acceptable service and tip very well for exceptional service.

I'll even tip for poor service if I think it was not the fault of the service staff.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Spiderman said:


> Most people tip for acceptable service and tip very well for exceptional service.
> 
> I'll even tip for poor service if I think it was not the fault of the service staff.



Me too...especially when I can see he/she is either overworked due to being understaffed.


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## Spiderman (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


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or if the cooks fuck up.


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> I like it!
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> I was in New Zealand back in the early '70s and tipping in a restaurant there was considered an insult to the owner, suggesting that he was not paying his staff enough.



They don't pay their staff enough.  I'd love to see what happens when it becomes the law of the land that restaurant owners lower their prices.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

The average wage for wait staff is about $2.50 per hour.
Virtually everyone is aware of this. 
People who don't tip are selfish assholes.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> The average wage for wait staff is about $2.50 per hour.
> Virtually everyone is aware of this.
> People who don't tip are selfish assholes.



Absolutely Sir!

Bad service from the wait staff could be something out of their control. My minimum tip is 20% and I inform the waiter that it's in cash and larger if the service is excellent. 

I rarely have bad experiences.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

I always try to tip in cash.
It is too easy and too tempting for managers/owners to pocket some of the tips. 
It happens, and probably a helluva lot more than we think.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> In the United States tipping is an incentive to provide good service





It hasn't really been that for a long, long time. Now it is just an obligation and a useless annoyance.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
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...says the person who gripes about tipping a $2 per hour employee who waits on him.


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
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You could just be overly demanding.  I haven't had a bad server for a long time.  I have friends who complain about the service everywhere we go.  It's embarrassing.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Spiderman said:


> People who don't tip are cheap.




See? This is the attitude regardless of the quality of service.


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## Pennywise (Mar 26, 2014)

It's fucking out of control when you have counter servers selling coffee with a TIP jar right next to the register. Insulting to the customers, subliminal pressure. That really pisses me off.


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## Luissa (Mar 26, 2014)

I agree with tipping. That is income a small business doesn't have to cover and they can keep food prices lower. Plus it encourages better customer service. 
In the service industry it's helpful. 



Sent from my iPhone using the tears of Raider's fans.


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## Mr Natural (Mar 26, 2014)

Pennywise said:


> It's fucking out of control when you have counter servers selling coffee with a TIP jar right next to the register. Insulting to the customers, subliminal pressure. That really pisses me off.



Yes.

"Hey kid, if it's your job to slice and butter my bagel, you're not waiting on me, I'm waiting on you."


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Sorry, most people tip for good service.





Sorry, most people feel obligated to leave some kind of tip regardless of service. Most people will tip more for exceptional service. The system is essentially a bribe and a shakedown all rolled into one. It's stupid. You don't throw an extra grand at your doctor if you leave feeling well. You don't slip a wad of cash to your child's teacher if he gets an 'A.' Just pay your damn workers and leave the customers out of the compensation negotiation process.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> The average wage for wait staff is about $2.50 per hour.
> Virtually everyone is aware of this.
> People who don't tip are selfish assholes.





See? There's the attitude. So goes the shakedown. Just charge higher prices and pay your damn workers yourself.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


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You're not paying attention.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


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We rarely eat out. We find the whole process annoying. I'm a decent cook, and the Mrs. cooks better food than I've ever had at any restaurant. That having been said, we'd eat out a lot more often if the whole thing wasn't such a pain in the ass. I'll get takeout from a place I'd just as soon sit down at if the process didn't involve all these useless 'performances' and expectations.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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Oh...so you are that guy my daughter talks about.
Treats her like she is a servant, looks annoyed most of the time while she tries to be friendly. 
And looks down his nose in disgust when he leaves the $1.00 tip.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


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Where did I indicate that I do any of those things, you dishonest douche?


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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Sorry, but you are being a jerk.
Waitresses have to learn the whole menu, as well as how they are generally cooked and the ingredients in EVERY dish. She has to be able to remember special request, what everyone is drinking at all of her seated tables the whole night. But most of all, she has to remain friendly to complete ass wipes and "holier than thou jerks" which she will usually get at least one of them every night. 
She will have to sweep/mop up messes left by kids of degenerate parents who let them do whatever they please, and somehow think it is the wait staff's job to clean up their childs vomit. 
  Tipping is a means in which these people are compensated above the rest of the employees - BECAUSE THEY SHOULD BE. 
It is also a means in which appreciative people can show their gratitude for having to do all of the above while earning a low wage...just to serve me my food.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


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How about FUCK YOU? Lying about me is worse than "being a jerk."


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Waitresses have to learn the whole menu, as well as how they are generally cooked and the ingredients in EVERY dish. She has to be able to remember special request, what everyone is drinking at all of her seated tables the whole night. But most of all, she has to remain friendly to complete ass wipes and "holier than thou jerks" which she will usually get at least one of them every night.
> She will have to sweep/mop up messes left by kids of degenerate parents who let them do whatever they please, and somehow think it is the wait staff's job to clean up their childs vomit.



A nurse's job is a *hell* of a lot more difficult than that and they don't stick their hand out at the patients and expect them to cough up extra (so to speak). They get paid to do their job.

Every job has many requirements. If someone doesn't want to work as waitstaff they can look for work in another area. If it's such a super-human task then the owner should pay them accordingly, or not. Don't ask the customer to make that decision for him. It doesn't have to be complicated, and it doesn't have to be a shakedown.


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## Spiderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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As I said leave an average tip for average service and exceptional tips for exceptional service.

 if you do away with tips you will simply be paying 15-25% more for your meals anyway regardless of service.


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## Spiderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Pennywise said:


> It's fucking out of control when you have counter servers selling coffee with a TIP jar right next to the register. Insulting to the customers, subliminal pressure. That really pisses me off.



I never tip for counter service.

The way I see it a waitress works on commission not unlike a salesman.  She gets crap pay for showing up and doing the scut work involved and her tips are her commission for making the customers happy.


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
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> > Waitresses have to learn the whole menu, as well as how they are generally cooked and the ingredients in EVERY dish. She has to be able to remember special request, what everyone is drinking at all of her seated tables the whole night. But most of all, she has to remain friendly to complete ass wipes and "holier than thou jerks" which she will usually get at least one of them every night.
> ...



That is a hilarious comparison.
Nurses don't get paid $2.50 an hour.
As for your other post that reveals your personality above this one...at what point have I lied?


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Spiderman said:


> if you do away with tips you will simply be paying 15-25% more for your meals anyway regardless of service.





Good, let the owner take care of that without involving the customer in salary negotiations for his workers. 

There is generally no tipping in Japan, and service is by far the best in the world. 

We have this shakedown 'tradition' here and service very often sucks anyway.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


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Why don't you try paying attention? I've said several times now that if the work is worth more the owner should pay more. You're so worked up because it's 'close to your heart' that you are imagining shit instead of following the discussion.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> As for your other post that reveals your personality above this one...at what point have I lied?



Right here, you dishonest son of a bitch:



iamwhatiseem said:


> Oh...so you are that guy my daughter talks about.
> Treats her like she is a servant, looks annoyed most of the time while she tries to be friendly.
> And looks down his nose in disgust when he leaves the $1.00 tip.




Now, apologize or accept that what it says about your character is true.


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## Spiderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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Then move to Japan.

I am Ok with tipping.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Spiderman said:


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Apparently you are also ok playing your role in the whole performance even when it's average service. It's a stupid practice.


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## Spiderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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Your opinion.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Spiderman said:


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Nice work, detective. You managed to figure out I didn't mean it as an immutable law of nature (now your personal stupidity on the other hand...).


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## iamwhatiseem (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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What lie? 
I have a daughter.
She does talk about assholes.
And she does get stiffed by them.
  I don't see where there is a semblance of something dishonest.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


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"You are that guy."

That's a lie. You have no idea how I tip or conduct myself in a restaurant, therefore your accusation is dishonest. Are you really this stupid? Either way, just suck it up like a man and apologize.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
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> > Waitresses have to learn the whole menu, as well as how they are generally cooked and the ingredients in EVERY dish. She has to be able to remember special request, what everyone is drinking at all of her seated tables the whole night. But most of all, she has to remain friendly to complete ass wipes and "holier than thou jerks" which she will usually get at least one of them every night.
> ...



For Christ sakes. A freaking nurse!!!!!!

What does a nurse SELL????

Compare apples to apples

Holy chit


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

unkotare said:


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bull


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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Reality


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Pennywise said:


> It's fucking out of control when you have counter servers selling coffee with a TIP jar right next to the register. Insulting to the customers, subliminal pressure. That really pisses me off.



Don't go

It's not that hard

I NEVER go where I don't feel welcomed


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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Bull, we could just keep doing this if it makes you feel good

Tipping sure as hell doesn't!


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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And that's the sound of an argument falling apart...


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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It would make me feel good to know that workers are being paid what the business owner thinks their labor is worth, without including me in the negotiations.


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## Mr Natural (Mar 26, 2014)

Just raise your prices by 20% and pay your help a decent wage and don't bother me with a lot of math at the end of a meal.

Thank you.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> Just raise your prices by 20% and pay your help a decent wage and don't bother me with a lot of math at the end of a meal.
> 
> Thank you.





Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp?


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## Noomi (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
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As long as they got paid a decent wage so as not to require tips, I agree.


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## Noomi (Mar 26, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> Just raise your prices by 20% and pay your help a decent wage and don't bother me with a lot of math at the end of a meal.
> 
> Thank you.



^this


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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I doubt that very much.


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## skye (Mar 26, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> Just raise your prices by 20% and pay your help a decent wage and don't bother me with a lot of math at the end of a meal.
> 
> Thank you.




I also agree with this ^^^^

who wants to be doing Maths at the end of a meal? totally unsophisticated and in bad taste.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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Ask just about any salesman worth his balls if he would rather work for a salary 

You might be surprised at the answer.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

skye said:


> Mr Clean said:
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And extremely difficult for anyone that never got past fourth grade


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## skye (Mar 26, 2014)

don't bother me with your %^&*  tips  at the end of a meal please.

just raise your prices 

thankyou.


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## Mr Natural (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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But here's the thing with tips in a restaurant:

They all go into a pool where they're divvied up equally at the end of the night.  So the slackers get the same thing as the hustlers.


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## skye (Mar 26, 2014)

Bloody hell.....people have been killed for leaving too little tips.....


just raise the darn price and don't bother the customers!!!


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

skye said:


> Bloody hell.....people have been killed for leaving too little tips.....
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> just raise the darn price and don't bother the customers!!!



And then you will complain about sucky service.


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## Mr Natural (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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Then you avoid that establishment.  Eventually, the owner will get the message that his waitstaff sucks and do something about it.


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## skye (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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Why sucky service?

the tip WILL BE INCLUDED in the price!  


it will be included!


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## Connery (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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That is a good point! I like the tip system, on those rare occasions I eat out I want the experience to be special. There is an expectation from wait staff for be compensated for a job well done thereby providing the service prior to payment.






Too bad i am such a cheap bastard that i can hear the eagle scream before i let go of a coin....


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## Swagger (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm assuming all those in favour of tipping tip the staff at McDonald's and Burger King, right?


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## Noomi (Mar 26, 2014)

Swagger said:


> I'm assuming all those in favour of tipping tip the staff at McDonald's and Burger King, right?



Don't be ridiculous! Of course they wouldn't.


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## skye (Mar 26, 2014)

Connery said:


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What I mean is that instead of forcing the customer at the end of a meal to give the infamous tip then and there....that same tip will be included in the price and will be given to the person at the end of the day.


That way you don't have to see their hungry, expecting, greedy eyes all over ya'....that is what I find in bad taste....it gives me indigestion.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


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You've obviously never dined in Europe.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Noomi said:


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I have. Caused a ruckus


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## BlackSand (Mar 26, 2014)

I like being able to tip and take care of the people who take care of me.
Since I tend to patronize places that treat their customers well ... I often get the opportunity to tip well and then repeat visit on numerous occasions.

I like being able to walk into a crowded restaurant with a line of people waiting to be seated ... Then walk right by them as the hostess asks me who's section I want to be seated in as we head to the bar.
I like it when the bartender has my drink ready by the time I pull up a stool ... Knows my name and what I drink ... Asks me about my day.
I don't fuss when the assistant manger tells the bartender the drinks are on him ... And I tip the bartender just for taking care of my friends and me even though we might not pay for the drinks.
I like when I know the waiter or waitress's name ... They know who I am ... And they know they will be taken care of if the service is good.

It doesn't matter if the expectation of tipping goes away or not ... I will still tip whatever I like ... And I guarantee you that I will be taken care of the way I like to be.

.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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???

Why?


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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They are not selling cars or trying to land the Peterman account, they are serving food.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


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Customers are going to complain about sucky service if there is sucky service one way or the other. Don't provide sucky service or close your damn doors.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


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As I have mentioned before, the best service in the world is in Japan where there is generally no tipping.


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## Swagger (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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In spite of never having been to Japan - or the Far East, for that matter - I'm assuming there are other reasons that you percieve [customer] service to be better in Japan than elsewhere. Possibly due to there being a less extrovert culture than the West, customary politeness, etc.?


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Swagger said:


> Unkotare said:
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> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



The reason is that service is much, much better by far. Not complicated.


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## Swagger (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Swagger said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Perception of 'good' service is subjective. Some people would rather be left alone, save for the necessary interaction between host and guest. Some might appreciate their host go out of his or her way to interact with the customer beyond the necessary interaction between host and guest. It may be a bit more complicated that you think. Personally, I'd class myself as being in between. I'm happy for the host to come over and enquire as to whether I'm enjoying myself and/or the food I've been served, and perhaps some brief conversation. But I'd be a little put-off if my wife and I were to be the subject of some impromptu serenade or juggling act. Others may enjoy it. As I said, 'good service' is subjective. So you must have some personal criteria as to what counts as good service.


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Tipping is not going to go away here.  There are waiters and watresses who work their whole lives at this, it's a career for them.  College kids pay their way through school with this money and they don't get it by doing mediocre work, they hustle and work very hard.

An owner isn't going to raise their wages high enough for them to earn any money.  Minimum wage maybe.  That's it.  

If you can't afford 15-20% for a tip, stay home for god's sake.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Swagger said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Swagger said:
> ...




When you have some basis upon which to make an informed comment, come back here and let me know what you think of my evaluation.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Tipping is not going to go away here.  There are waiters and watresses who work their whole lives at this, it's a career for them.  College kids pay their way through school with this money and they don't get it by doing mediocre work, they hustle and work very hard.





Lots (lots!) of people work hard their whole lives, hustle and all that, without this silly and annoying shakedown system.


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## Swagger (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Swagger said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



What do you mean by "basis"? The act of eating out?


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Tipping is not going to go away here.  There are waiters and watresses who work their whole lives at this, it's a career for them.  College kids pay their way through school with this money and they don't get it by doing mediocre work, they hustle and work very hard.
> ...



Most really good people get paid what they're worth too.  Restaurant/bar owners are notoriously unfair to their employees.  It's very hard to get and keep a place like that going and you can trust me on this, they aren't going to pay their people fairly.

Tips aren't going anywhere.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...





Most "really good" people don't spend their entire career working as waitstaff. Irrelevant to this discussion.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Tips aren't going anywhere.





Did you read the article? They are going somewhere at that particular restaurant. I know that if I was aware of restaurants in my area with such a sensible policy I'd give them my business, and I would eat out more often as a result.


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Tips aren't going anywhere.
> ...



Good.  I'd rather pay for good food and service and help someone working hard make their lives a little better.  Do you have any idea how fast I can spend the $20 I'd give a good waiter?  In the blink of an eye.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...




In the same blink you could pay your bill that includes that $20 built in to the cost of the dinner. Don't worry, you can still spend your $20. Or do you get a thrill out of watching the 'little people' grovel for your largess first?


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## Luddly Neddite (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> Tipping is a great tradition.



Tipping is a way of legally underpaying the help. 

Herman Cain made sure that wait staff would never be able to make a decent living.


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## BlackSand (Mar 26, 2014)

It is just an attempt to enforce equality in a system that rewards individuals according to their talents.
More redistribution in favor of the folks who suck at accomplishing the tips on their merit.

.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

So, my beautiful trophy wife and I went out to eat tonight. The waitress was delightful and the food was very good. 

So just for fun I asked her if the minimum wage was raised to $15 per hour, would she keep her job and work for that?

Her answer was that she would be taking a pretty good pay cut and she would just go work at mcdonalds where she wouldn't have to work as hard. 

I laughed and thanked her.


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



What I'm saying is that if you include that money in the cost of a meal, the servers will not see much of it at all.  They will be making minimum wage and that's it.  

Do you get a thrill of letting these hard workers serve you for nothing?  Cheapskate.


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## Connery (Mar 26, 2014)

skye said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



I do not feel greedy eyes in as much as I do experience fine service. All the parties know the score: Good service is rewarded,  bad service is not. When I worked in a gas station I would bust my little butt washing windows, left the hood and check fluids and hope I would get a tip. I remember one day making $40, for a kid that not bad. I watch for those who go the extra step and reward that action. It makes a difference.


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## skye (Mar 26, 2014)

I am  only  talking about tips in restaurants and places where people eat mainly. ^^^

Not about the rest.


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Connery said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > Connery said:
> ...



They did used to tip for service at gas stations now that you mention it.  Look at what has happened to wages since that stopped happening.  They all make minimum wage and there is like one employee per shift behind the counter doing cashier work.  Service is no longer at service stations.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

skye said:


> I am  only  talking about tips in restaurants and places where people eat mainly. ^^^
> 
> Not about the rest.



I have known people to ask the waitress to add the % of the tip to the bill when the check is brought


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > skye said:
> ...



When you were a kid they had cars?


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## Sarah G (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Connery said:
> ...



A-hole.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> What I'm saying is that if you include that money in the cost of a meal, the servers will not see much of it at all.  They will be making minimum wage and that's it.





Take that up with the owner. It's his/her job to pay the staff.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Connery said:


> When I worked in a gas station I would bust my little butt washing windows, left the hood and check fluids and hope I would get a tip. I remember one day making $40, for a kid that not bad. I watch for those who go the extra step and reward that action. It makes a difference.





You get that kind of 1950s service at gas stations in Japan today. No tips.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> It is just an attempt to enforce equality in a system that rewards individuals according to their talents.
> More redistribution in favor of the folks who suck at accomplishing the tips on their merit.
> 
> .




That already happens. Many places, all the tips go into a 'pool' that is divided among the waitstaff. So much for your meritocracy. How about the owner fires bad servers and pays those who make the cut rather well?


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > What I'm saying is that if you include that money in the cost of a meal, the servers will not see much of it at all.  They will be making minimum wage and that's it.
> ...



See post #96


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Connery said:


> When I worked in a gas station I would bust my little butt washing windows, left the hood and check fluids and hope I would get a tip.





I worked at a gas station/car wash part of the year when I was in high school. I cleaned the windows, checked the oil, etc. every time. There was no tipping allowed, per owner. I took pride in doing good work.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...





See post #this one.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Sorry

Did he have to crank the car to start them after the service?

Is that better?


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Would you tip if they made $15 per hour?


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...




Not my business what they make per hour. That should be between the worker and the employer. I would hope they are paid what they are worth.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



The bad would make as much as the good then. Theoretically


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...




The bad would get fired and the good would get a raise. Theoretically.


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## Esmeralda (Mar 26, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> Tipping is a great tradition.



When I was in college and working as a waitress, I lived off my tips.  Salary paid for tuition and rent, tips covered everything else.  In America, waiters and waitresses are paid below minimum wage because it is expected they earn tips.  Without tips, you would not find anyone who wants to be a waiter or waitress, except maybe teenagers who are  just working for pocket money.  If  you don't want to pay tips, don't go out to eat.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



And the cost of iffy service would rise substantially. 

All costs would raise substantially. Your affordable night out now becomes very expensive. You do realize the cost of an employee is far more than the hourly wage. Right?

All the suppliers, the equipment repairmen, the maintenance workers, the delivery drivers, everybody's wages go up and all that ends up as the cost of the end product. 

All for a zero net gain and bad service to boot

Bravo!


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Without tips, you would not find anyone who wants to be a waiter or waitress




Of course you would, because they would not be making $2.50/hr. This has been pointed out again and again. Some people have the attention of a goldfish.


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## BlackSand (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Without tips, you would not find anyone who wants to be a waiter or waitress
> ...



For a short time as a bartender in college I made $2.10 an hour in wages and $25+ an hour in tips ... Your idea sucks big time.

.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...




Service is bad now, far too often. If someone cannot run a profitable business without shaking down customers this way they should shut the doors. It is not necessary, whatever excuses you try to dream up.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...





You've got a real future in the Mafia Industry. And it's not my idea and it's not 'new.'


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



That has been pointed out dozens of times to him

Buy em books and buy em books and all they do is eat the teacher


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Try thinking for a change

Your proposal destines the customer to higher prices and worse service. 

Do not, I repeat, do not run for office. K?


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## Esmeralda (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Without tips, you would not find anyone who wants to be a waiter or waitress
> ...



You're an idiot, and that's the nicest thing anyone could say about you.

If there were no tips and people were paid minimum wage as food servers, which is all they would be paid, the service would go downhill fast.  It is very hard work both physically and psychologically; the mental part is difficult because people are rude, demanding,and often totally disrepectful to wait staff.  No one would work in that field for low pay, and the pay would be low, except teenagers and the very desperate.

You are so completely stupid it isn't even funny.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Your proposal destines the customer to higher prices and worse service.




AGAIN, not 'my' proposal. Higher prices would be a wash since the shakedown would be taken out of the equation, and worse service is not a necessary result _at all_.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> If there were no tips and people were paid minimum wage as food servers, which is all they would be paid




Pay attention, goldfish. It has been repeated over and over and over and over and over and over that the waitstaff would be compensated according to the value of their work. There is no reason to expect this to be minimum wage. I would expect the staff to be compensated well and to see that reflected in the bill. A bill I would pay without going through some archaic ritual shakedown. 



Before you make another stupid post, do yourself a favor and read through the thread.


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> the mental part is difficult because people are rude, demanding,and often totally disrepectful [sic] to wait staff.





The practice of tipping is part of the reason for this. Part.


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## Pop23 (Mar 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Your proposal destines the customer to higher prices and worse service.
> ...



Fool!

The wages of everyone would go up, all along the distribution chain. Prices have to rise. 

You now have three options to avoid the shakedown (which never EVER happens. I have never seen a waiter / waitress ever even ask to be tipped)

1. Go somewhere where tips are not allowed. I hear Mickey D's has an ass kickin Fillet O Fish. Right up your ally. 

2. Go to a restaurant that relies on tips and stiff the staff. Ain't no law sayin you have to tip

3. Fly the hell to Japan and have it your way

You have options


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## Unkotare (Mar 26, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> 3. Fly the hell to Japan and have it your way
> 
> You have options




Maybe YOU should fly over and see that it works just fine. Eating out is somewhat more expensive but not as much as you seem to assume it would be, service is far - FAR better, and both customer and employee are largely satisfied. You're just making excuses for a ridiculous status quo.


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## Sarah G (Mar 27, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



I don't know who it was upthread who thought food service shouldn't even be a career.  They have so little respect for hard working people and it's based on them not wanting them to earn a fair wage.

Disrespectful and insensitive to people trying to carve out a good life for themselves.  

Administrative assistants and HR used to be positions for women who wanted to get some part time work after their kids went to school.  Very low pay.  Now people are getting degrees and have lifted those areas up into very viable careers.


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Try thinking for a change
> 
> Your proposal destines the customer to higher prices and worse service.
> 
> Do not, I repeat, do not run for office. K?



You are ASSUMING that higher wages and zero tips will mean poor service. That is not the case.


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



I don't get tips but I do earn a proper hourly wage of $18 an hour. I deal with customers whom I honestly hope get hit by a bus, they shit me that much, but that is all part of working in customer service.

If I was working for low wages and tips, I wouldn't bother showing up to work. I am not going to rely on a complete stranger to pay me enough money to cover my rent.


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

Connery said:


> When I worked in a gas station I would bust my little butt washing windows, left the hood and check fluids and hope I would get a tip. I remember one day making $40, for a kid that not bad. I watch for those who go the extra step and reward that action. It makes a difference.



Why work hard HOPING you will get a tip and then not get one at all? All that hard work for nothing, when you could just do the work and get paid a proper wage.

I prefer that.


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## Esmeralda (Mar 27, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



It doesn't work that way at all, if you are good at your job.  Very few stiff you completely, some don't give big tips, but most of the people make up for any low tips. A good waiter/waitress makes very good money in tips. I was only 18 years old and working in the downtown business neighborhood at lunch time, in a restaurant that catered to business men and women, and I made enough in tips for food and other living expenses.  There was a jar in my apartment when I dumped all my tips and I just went there anytime I needed something. My wages paid for rent and tuition.  The harder you work, the better the service you give, the  more tips you make: you are paid directly related to how your perform day in and day out, which is often not the case with other jobs.


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## BlackSand (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> You now have three options to avoid the shakedown (which never EVER happens. I have never seen a waiter / waitress ever even ask to be tipped)



At the place where I worked behind the bar ... Saying anything while on the floor about a tip you thought you should be receiving, you received or didn't receive  ... Could get you fired on the spot ... There was certainly no shakedown.
You could say Thanks You to the customer, but that was all you could say about the tip.

.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > You now have three options to avoid the shakedown (which never EVER happens. I have never seen a waiter / waitress ever even ask to be tipped)
> ...



As part of my job I am asked to take a client to lunch at least once a week. That has been a requirement on me for over 20 years. That's a minimum of over 1000 business lunches over that time period. Add that to taking my beautiful trophy wife out at least twice a month and that's a whole lotta experience. 

I've never had a Server ask once for a tip, never had one hold their hands out for a tip, or watch to see how much of a tip I was leaving. 

Yet some on this thread make it seem as though that's a primary event during their dining out. 

So, please, be so kind and let me know just where these horrible experiences actually happen so the rest of us can avoid them. 

Oh, and I hear Burger King has a two sandwich for $5 special going on. I bet you won't be hounded for a tip there

It is way beyond time to declare this thread


Failed


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

We can only hope that more restaurants follow the lead of those like the one in the OP. Once customers have a chance to experience eating out without the shakedown, it would be very interesting to see how those holding on to the archaic annoyance fare in open competition. 

Sadly, this probably won't happen as there are so many lemmings willing to be abused and coerced into doing the owner's job for him/her.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> We can only hope that more restaurants follow the lead of those like the one in the OP. Once customers have a chance to experience eating out without the shakedown, it would be very interesting to see how those holding on to the archaic annoyance fare in open competition.
> 
> Sadly, this probably won't happen as there are so many lemmings willing to be abused and coerced into doing the owner's job for him/her.



See post 96. Would work at McDonalds instead. 

Just sad


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > We can only hope that more restaurants follow the lead of those like the one in the OP. Once customers have a chance to experience eating out without the shakedown, it would be very interesting to see how those holding on to the archaic annoyance fare in open competition.
> ...




Good waitstaff would, of course, make a lot more than at McDonald's, but if someone wanted to do that, so be it.


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## Luddly Neddite (Mar 27, 2014)

What about the single mom whose sister stays with her kids while she works the night shift so she can attend classes during the day?


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> What about the single mom whose sister stays with her kids while she works the night shift so she can attend classes during the day?



Point being? 

How do you know the waitress in post 96 is not just that


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



You realize you offer a net gain of zero. 

Just don't tip and your world will stay on course. The servers will always be able to rely on folks like me to make up for the stiffs.

Or go to the land of the ninja warriors and we have a win/win


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> You realize you offer a net gain of zero.




The "gain" would be for the customer in the form of less hassle and no extortion.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > You realize you offer a net gain of zero.
> ...



I've asked you before when you have run across this extortion. You FAILED to respond. 

As for hassle, if figuring out what 20% of any amount is, I suggest you buy a smart phone with an appropriate app or carry a cheap calculator

If those are too tough for you..   

Stay the frick home. We will not miss you!

Oh, I hazard to guess that I am a customer far more than you. I have never felt hassled by doing 4th grade level math. 

If you are that bothered by it, you have far bigger problems than I should comment on.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





The whole ridiculous practice is one big shakedown, stupid.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Stay the frick home. We will not miss you!





Read all the posts, stupid.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Just like you actually having to pay a menu price is a shakedown. 

You just really need to get a freaking life. Stay home, we don't need anymore idiots out walking around.


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## Connery (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > When I worked in a gas station I would bust my little butt washing windows, left the hood and check fluids and hope I would get a tip.
> ...



I take pride in whatever I do regardless whether it is for pay or not.


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## Connery (Mar 27, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > When I worked in a gas station I would bust my little butt washing windows, left the hood and check fluids and hope I would get a tip. I remember one day making $40, for a kid that not bad. I watch for those who go the extra step and reward that action. It makes a difference.
> ...



There are positions where there is no salary only commission. Moreover, as a business owner I had to generate not only enough money to keep the lights on, but salaries, bomuses and all that comes with having employees, not to mention  Christmas presents for clients....(big cost there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)...


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 27, 2014)

A lot of places in Europe do not have tipping and the service is HORRIBLE. 

You take out the incentive to do a good job and the service will follow right behind it.
 [MENTION=38085]Noomi[/MENTION] I worked for tips for twenty years and always did very well. If I leave it up to my boss to pay me - I would not have made any money at all - I'd rather the customer pay me what I'm worth.


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## Vandalshandle (Mar 27, 2014)

My daughter worked in high school and college as a hostess in expensive restaurants in Vegas. Her job was to great and seat people. She used to get angry when anyone failed to tip her. I asked her to tell me what she had done to improve the dinning experience for those that did not tip her. She told me that her time alone was worth a tip. 

I found it necessary to sit her down and explain the economic facts of life to her.

Fortunately, she made it through her schooling as, as a RN, is no longer in the hospitality industry.


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## jillian (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> 
> 
> "In Japan, theres no custom of tipping. In fact, leaving a tip could potentially be considered rude, as the cost of the service is already supposed to be included in the price you pay. My American buddys attempt to follow his home custom in Japan ended in the delivery driver apologising profusely for not accepting the tip! In New York City, meanwhile, Japanese restaurants are bringing the no-tipping custom Stateside, as Restaurant Riki becomes the latest Manhattan establishment to ban their customers from tipping."
> ...



except restaurant workers are paid $2 and change an hour b/c they get tipped.

so good luck with that. 

but why would tipping bother you?


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





No, paying the marked price is not a shakedown. Paying that and THEN being obligated to cough up more IS a shakedown.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

jillian said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> ...





So they should be paid what their work is really worth to the owner and the prices at the restaurant should reflect that straight up in black and white.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Connery said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Connery said:
> ...





As well you should.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> You take out the incentive to do a good job and the service will follow right behind it.





The incentive should come from the owner. Do a great job and be paid well, do a poor job and be fired. Pretty simple.


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## QuickHitCurepon (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > You take out the incentive to do a good job and the service will follow right behind it.
> ...



Tips aren't the only incentive.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > You take out the incentive to do a good job and the service will follow right behind it.
> ...



So, how much does the owner cough up to pay the wait staff and where does that come from? Does he raise the price of the meal say from 20.00 to 24.00? Would THAT make you happy? Now the money is guaranteed so the server doesn't have to kiss your ass. 

Does not seem like that great of a deal to me.

Why should the owner pay me? I'm not waiting on him.

I would much rather fave a say in how much I leave my server. 

By the way - I like tipping. I often will drop my server a ten dollar tip on a ten dollar dinner. 

They fight over me. Nice when you're an ugly ass guy like me!


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...




That should be negotiated between the staff and the owner (NOT the customer), and it should come from the prices charged for the fare of the house.


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## QuickHitCurepon (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> 
> 
> "In Japan, theres no custom of tipping. In fact, leaving a tip could potentially be considered rude, as the cost of the service is already supposed to be included in the price you pay. My American buddys attempt to follow his home custom in Japan ended in the delivery driver apologising profusely for not accepting the tip! In New York City, meanwhile, Japanese restaurants are bringing the no-tipping custom Stateside, as Restaurant Riki becomes the latest Manhattan establishment to ban their customers from tipping."
> ...



It is a custom there in Japan, idiot. It is not a custom here, dumbshit.


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## QuickHitCurepon (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Have you ever worked or owned a restaurant? I have. Most go out of business, and there is not enough money to go around. You should study economics once in awhile.


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## jillian (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



nonsense.... if servers were paid a reasonable wage, you'd pay more for your food.

you might want to look into what a meal costs in japan.

sad....


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## jillian (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



there is always some poor ijit willing to work for less... that's why there are wage and hour laws.

try again.


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## Connery (Mar 27, 2014)

skye said:


> I am  only  talking about tips in restaurants and places where people eat mainly. ^^^
> 
> Not about the rest.




I got what you were saying ....your post just made me think about that experience..


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## Connery (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



So should you this is a nice thread....great discussions...


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

We are arguing with someone who thinks the act of voluntarily leaving a tip is somehow strong arm tactics. 

You will not get it through his thick head


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

QuickHitCurepon said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> ...





Read the article, moron. Do you ever pay attention, or are you too busy doing 'imagination research' all the time?


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

QuickHitCurepon said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...





Are you hooked up to a morphine drip or something? What the hell is wrong with you?


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

jillian said:


> .... if servers were paid a reasonable wage, you'd pay more for your food.....





Sounds fine.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

jillian said:


> you might want to look into what a meal costs in japan.
> 
> ....





No need. I'm very familiar with it. It's somewhat more expensive to eat out, but not as much as some of you patsies defending the shakedown seem to imagine.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

jillian said:


> there is always some poor ijit willing to work for less... that's why there are wage and hour laws.





And owners would have to adhere to those laws, of course. Anyone willing to work for peanuts probably isn't the cream of the crop, and that restaurant would adapt or fail.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> We are arguing with someone who thinks the act of voluntarily leaving a tip is somehow strong arm tactics.
> 
> You will not get it through his thick head




Aren't you the guy who has been berating me for your own little imaginary narrative about me not tipping well? Get your (bullshit) stories straight.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

QuickHitCurepon said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> ...





Well? Did you read the article? Are you doing some 'imagination research' right now?


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > We are arguing with someone who thinks the act of voluntarily leaving a tip is somehow strong arm tactics.
> ...



Bull, it's you having a problem with doing 4th grade level math that is the problem here. 

What you have is, at the very best, a net gain of zero for the employee just so you don't have to do some freaking simple math calculations. 

So don't tip, stiff these poor urchins, and walk away like the superior sumo you think you are. 

I am now completely bored out of my mind with you. 

I suggest getting some Swanson TV dinners and eating alone that way you won't feel strong armed by some college aged kid. 

K?


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





You're doing it again, imagination-boy.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> What you have is, at the very best, a net gain of zero for the employee




Good enough.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> I suggest getting some Swanson TV dinners and eating alone






Is that what you imagine to be the only alternative to eating out? You sound kinda sad and lonely.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> QuickHitCurepon said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



No, that's a very good point - restaurants have a notoriously low profit margin. Prices would have to go up quite a bit. Restaurants will have to pay sales tax on it, they will never bite - not under our current tax code.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > I suggest getting some Swanson TV dinners and eating alone
> ...



This is a very good thread, I would love it if we could just stay on topic and not do this. ^^^

Other problems with raising the prices are that people who could not afford to leave a tip when it was optional, will now be forced to pay higher prices.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > I suggest getting some Swanson TV dinners and eating alone
> ...



Do you have a single original thought in your head?

Juuuuuddddddooo Chop!


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > QuickHitCurepon said:
> ...




You didn't read the article either, huh?


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Are the people who actually have been or are waitresses and waiters, who posted in your failed thread also imaginary?

You have many delusions that could use some help!

Seek it


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## SillyWabbit (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



Whoa there. Swanson makes a mean salisbury steak with gravy and mashed potatoes, corn and apple pie for dessert. Let's not draw an American icon into this dreary debate. 

Damn it.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





???


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...




???


I didn't say you were imaginary. Have you gone from losing this argument to losing your mind?


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> I am now completely bored out of my mind with you.




Well, you certainly do seem to have gone out of your mind...


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

SillyWabbit said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...




I make a pretty mean Salisbury Steak myself. Last time we were in Kyoto we ate in a family-style restaurant that served a GREAT Salisbury Steak - on a sizzling hot place and all. No tipping.


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## Dot Com (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> 
> 
> "In Japan, there&#8217;s no custom of tipping. In fact, leaving a tip could potentially be considered rude, as the cost of the service is already supposed to be included in the price you pay. My American buddy&#8217;s attempt to follow his home custom in Japan ended in the delivery driver apologising profusely for not accepting the tip! In New York City, meanwhile, Japanese restaurants are bringing the no-tipping custom Stateside, as Restaurant Riki becomes the latest Manhattan establishment to ban their customers from tipping."
> ...



yep. then it would be a libertarian paradise,  $2.13/hr.

Question- how often do you eat out & what is the ballpark figure for the tab? My gawd but you're a chisler or just a kid who finds math difficult.


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## Dot Com (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



^ that

welcome to the club.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Japanese restaurants in New York introduce ban on tipping ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
> ...





Try reading the entire thread first. Don't worry, you can still make an ass of yourself after you have done so.


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## Andylusion (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> ...



Well I've been in both.   The problem is, staff that you don't tip... tend to give poorer service, while I have to pay a higher price.

Would I rather pay $25 dollars, and get poor service...

Or pay $20 and if the services is good pay $5 tip, or if the service is bad pay less or nothing more?

Answer... I'd rather pay the lower price, and give a tip based on service.

That's whole point of tipping.  If you get good service, you pay the tip.  If you get poor service, you don't.

This gives servers the incentive to give good service.

If you eliminate tipping...    You are still going to pay the tip.... except now you'll pay it no matter if you get good service or not.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > iamwhatiseem said:
> ...





Wrong.


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## Andylusion (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Well.... you can say "wrong" but that doesn't make it wrong.   My experience has been, that in places where there is no tipping, and they charge you a higher price, to pay the staff that tip.... the staff tends to not do as good a job, as those places where their tip is directly tied to whether I tip them for doing a good job.

You can say "wrong" all you want... and you are the one wrong.  I've been there... I've done that.... I know the difference.

Sorry.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Hey Unk, I went to Walgreens tonight. They have calculators for $2.00. 

If it cost 20% to ship the calculator to you (don't worry about the tax). How much will the shipping cost?

Will check back in a week for your answer, that should give you plenty of time.


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## Wake (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't mind tipping if it's voluntary.

If it's mandatory, they'll not get my business.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Didn't think so


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Wake said:


> I don't mind tipping if it's voluntary.
> 
> If it's mandatory, they'll not get my business.



I hate it when they put a gun to my head. 

Just not friendly.


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## Againsheila (Mar 27, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> Tipping is a great tradition.



What's wrong with putting the right price on the meal instead of us having to poney up more money at the end?  I'd rather they were paid a decent wage in the beginning.


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## jillian (Mar 27, 2014)

Againsheila said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> ...



you mean pay restaurant workers a living wage?

ok


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Againsheila said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> ...



It then becomes a gain of zero. The only loss is potential income of the server. 

All of you pushing this idea just band together, open your restaurant and see how it works out. 

Innovation is the American way. 

Go for it.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Androw said:


> You can say "wrong" all you want... and you are the one wrong.  I've been there... I've done that.... I know the difference.
> 
> Sorry.




_I've_ been there..._I've_ done that..._I_ know the difference. You're wrong.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > iamwhatiseem said:
> ...





The customer gains an unambiguous understanding of what the goods and services he or she is purchasing cost, without any unnecessary and demeaning song and dance.


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

Wake said:


> I don't mind tipping if it's voluntary.
> 
> If it's mandatory, they'll not get my business.



It practically is expected. What happens when you don't tip? Shitty service. People refuse to do the jobs they are paid to do simply because I refuse to line their pockets with money they beg for.

Just pay the poor sods more.


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > iamwhatiseem said:
> ...



Not true. I work with a heap of casual workers, and if you don't do your job properly, guess what? Your hours get cut. So the incentive to provide good service is always there, because if you don't provide it, you might come to work one day and find that your usual 20 hours per week has been halved.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Most people understand that the menu price does not include the tip. 

It's only a mental hardship to those that find math troublesome. 

It really is that simple


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

I would rather pay more for a meal than have to decide how much money I should hand over, and whether the server will be pissed off because they don't feel its enough. And I don't want to get crap service if I refused to tip.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Noomi said:


> I would rather pay more for a meal than have to decide how much money I should hand over, and whether the server will be pissed off because they don't feel its enough. And I don't want to get crap service if I refused to tip.



And rent, groceries, transportation and on and on and on

Australia's cost of living is much higher than the United States. You may indeed make more per hour, but you are forced to spend more to live because of that very same reason!

It's a net gain of zero.


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > I would rather pay more for a meal than have to decide how much money I should hand over, and whether the server will be pissed off because they don't feel its enough. And I don't want to get crap service if I refused to tip.
> ...



Funny, many of us manage just fine.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



Funny, the waitress I noted in post #96 and most others I know manage just fine.


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## Unkotare (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...




Because of this stupid little performance people have agreed to go through.


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## Noomi (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



Because she has to grovel like some homeless person on the street.


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Bingo, we have a winner! Key word is AGREED. 

See, it really is that simple!


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## Pop23 (Mar 27, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



Never seen one grovel. Never seen one ask for a tip. Never seen one hold a gun to a customers head. 

Where do you get this information?


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## Againsheila (Mar 27, 2014)

jillian said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > iamwhatiseem said:
> ...



Yes, that's exactly what I mean.


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## Papageorgio (Mar 27, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



I'm with you, I have never had waiter or waitress grovel, I enjoy and treat them with respect. Now, some fast food places...they seem disinterested in working or helping. But most of those are entry level jobs.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





And so we can agree to a better way of doing things too.


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## Noomi (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



What happens if you refuse to tip because you don't believe in it, and then return to the establishment?


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Deflection is the admission of a lost argument.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



I'd expect crap service


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > You can say "wrong" all you want... and you are the one wrong.  I've been there... I've done that.... I know the difference.
> ...



You have the right to be wrong.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Againsheila said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > Both my son and daugher, tips as waitress and waiter have paid a significant portion of their college costs.
> ...



Well that's fine... if you really want to pay more, and then end up with lousy service, that's ok. 

Just realize that either way, you are going to pay the tip.

You either pay the tip directly, by paying the tip when you get good service.

Or you pay the tip through higher price, regardless of what service you get.

Me?  I'd rather pay the tip only when I get good service, by paying a lower menu price, and paying out the tip directly when I get the service I want.

If you want the other way, there are in fact restaurants that do that.  And when you get lousy service, you just get lousy service and sucks to be you.   Or me.... because I've done that, and gotten lousy service, while the waiters still got their tip.    That sucks.  I want them to not get the tip when they perform badly.    Under your system, they do.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...



No no no.      There is a restaurant that I have been going to for years.  There have been several times where I have not tipped, because the service was poor.

The people who serve me well, get tipped well.

The people who serve me poorly, get tipped poorly if at all.

The result has been that good servers WANT to be server.   Bad servers tend to move on to something else....  which is good for all customers.

I have never once gone to a restaurant where the people said "oh there's that guy that tips really well if you do well" and end up with crap service because I didn't tip bad servers.


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## BlackSand (Mar 28, 2014)

Look at the nincompoops in this thread that preach about wanting to pay more for their meal so they don't have to tip ... And the management can pay higher wages.

*It isn't the people who have worked for tips*  Because people like me know you can make a hell of a lot more money from tips than from wages.
It is people who want to take the opportunity away from those who perform better to be compensated better than their counterparts.
I mean face it  Whether a tip or an increased price  It is the same money with the exception of who you give it to and exactly how much you decide to tip.

If you don't like the tipping  Don't tip  But certainly don't screw it up for the people who give good service and get rewarded for their efforts because you want to support redistribution through wages rather than effort and talent.

.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





That was in no way a deflection. Don't use words you don't understand.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





An establishment offering crap service should go out of business.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...





I do indeed, but I'm not in this case.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> I want them to not get the tip when they perform badly.





When they perform badly they should be fired. This is another thing that should be the owner's responsibility, not the customer's.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> It is people who want to take the opportunity away from those who perform better to be compensated better than their counterparts.
> 
> .





That's a lie. No one has so much as suggested that. You are lying, which suggests you have run out of actual argument. Good workers should be better compensated. Doing so is the job of the owner, not the individual customer.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 28, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Wake said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mind tipping if it's voluntary.
> ...



It's called the free market - you are not paying someone to clean up after you when you eat like a pig - quite naturally, they give you crappy service the next time ... or worse.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> > It is people who want to take the opportunity away from those who perform better to be compensated better than their counterparts.
> ...



Again - how does the owner come up with the money to pay for this? Hint - he either raises the price of the menu, or goes out of business.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > I want them to not get the tip when they perform badly.
> ...



They shouldn't get paid? I'm confused, you want the tip to come out of company profits and expect the restaurant to NOT raise prices?


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## Sarah G (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > I want them to not get the tip when they perform badly.
> ...



I think you should be fired from this thread.  You're performing very badly here.

Now get out!


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > BlackSand said:
> ...




AGAIN - he raises the prices.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...



How many times do I have to say the same thing? Raise the prices and pay the employees.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...




I started this 'business'!


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## Mad_Cabbie (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



... But you're still paying for it, only now - It's not an option.


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## Sarah G (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Hostile takeover.  You're too dang mean.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...




Sounds good to me. As long as you leave me out of employee compensation negotiations and stop with the little song and dance. Charge a price for a meal, pay the price for the meal, go home.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Sarah G said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...




You can't do this to me! I started this thread when it was nothing, nothing I say!


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



Have you ever managed anything?   Anything at all in the customer service arena?

See in Japan, where they have no tipping system, that works.... because Japanese even on their worst days are extremely polite.    Japanese have a culture of working their hardest for the good of the country.

In that environment and culture, it's pretty easy to have great service, without much effort.

Here in America, it's simply not that way.  I wish it was!  But it's not.   I've been in some places where the service was absolutely TERRIBLE.    Where the servers were snippy and almost rude.

I wish we were like Japan.  I seriously do.  And then, there would in fact be, no reason whatsoever to have a tipping system.

But if you think you can eliminate that system, and have Japan quality service, you are wrong and crazy.    You can't watch every single server, and monitor all service.   You can't make sure people get the highest quality service at all times.  Not possible.    Even if you installed cameras at every angle in the entire store, the net result would be the customers would leave feeling like they were under surveillance.

So how do you propose to enforce quality service?   Most customers when they get lack luster service, simply don't go back to that store.  I'm one of those.   I know a specific place that the service was poor.  I didn't talk to management, I simply don't go back.  The management possibly never knew the service was poor.

And when service is exceptionally good, people tend to not say much to management then either.

So what system would *YOU* if you were the manager, would you put in place to insure quality service?

For most managers, the best solution is the tipping system.   You don't have to monitor every individual, because the customer rewards and punishes individuals on their own, with the tip.    You provide good service, I tip you well.   You provide poor service, or bad service, I don't tip as much, or at all.

Again, if this was Japan, and every server provided excelent service all the time, that would not be needed.    But the fact is, this is America, and some people are flat out lazy, and do the minimum required.   Not out right rude service.   I've never had a waiter yell at me.    But I have had marginal service.

I want to be able to not pay the tip on marginal lack luster service.

Under your system, all the prices would go up.  I would end up paying the tip, regardless of service.  I don't like that.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



Nobody should work for free, stiff a tip, get the bums rush.


----------



## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



This coming from someone troubled by doing fourth grade math

Folks, you just can't mKe this shit up.


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## Papageorgio (Mar 28, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



I don't know, I don't go to McDonalds that often.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





There you go again being dishonest.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...




Yes I have. Thanks for asking.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Here in America, it's simply not that way.  I wish it was!  But it's not.





It's not, because people are no longer held to that standard. If they were, people would get the idea (again) quickly enough.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> But if you think you can eliminate that system, and have Japan quality service, you are wrong and crazy.    You can't watch every single server, and monitor all service.   You can't make sure people get the highest quality service at all times.  Not possible.





Of course it's possible. Service used to be much better here and it could be again easily enough.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> So how do you propose to enforce quality service?   .





With all the technology and social media at our disposal it would be simpler now than it has ever been.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> For most managers, the best solution is the tipping system.





Again, part of the problem with this stupid system is that it expects the customer to do the owner's job for him. If I'm your customer, leave me out of your managerial responsibilities.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Nobody should work for free




No one has suggested they should, you dishonest sack of crap.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> stiff a tip, get the bums rush.





You're the one who has been going on and on about how the tipping system is voluntary, right? Yeah, right.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Look at the nincompoops in this thread that preach about wanting to pay more for their meal so they don't have to tip ... And the management can pay higher wages.
> 
> *It isn't the people who have worked for tips*  Because people like me know you can make a hell of a lot more money from tips than from wages.
> It is people who want to take the opportunity away from those who perform better to be compensated better than their counterparts.
> ...



^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^

Your concerns have been totally and completely answered

As they say in Hollywood, This one is a wrap. 

Goodnight everybody


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Goodnight everybody





Yeah, you ran out of anything to say about ten pages ago.


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## Wake (Mar 28, 2014)

Tipping shouldn't be mandatory. However, if there exists a pattern of some waiter or waitress being stiffed by certain customers, it is entirely likely that that worker will not try his or her hardest to give the best service possible. If I were a waiter: When I know my hard work is usually rewarded with generous tips, I give it my all. If someone is very stingy and does not appreciate good service, my desire to give that person my very best service is diminished.

The risks of voluntary tipping involve the worker being stiffed, and/or the customer not being fully served.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Why ask?

Unk has managed to make himself look like a tightwad, incapable of easily accomplishing grade school level math and boring the members who posted here. 

The transponders of this thread were shut down hours ago and it's sinking somewhere in the Indian Ocean southwest of Australia. 

Facts is facts folks. 

Outta here


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...




That's you being dishonest - AGAIN. You ran out of anything to say long ago. You have just been whining, contradicting yourself, attempting to portray me dishonestly, and generally stomping your feet for at least ten pages now. Long past time for you to run away. Go work on some new material.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Is that how a ninja calls the wambulance?

Dude you can't admit you took the beating you took. That's ok, but you will not be cured until you admit the problem exists. 

Outta here version 1.02


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## 007 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
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> > Unkotare said:
> ...


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...




How's that now? Who has declared at least three times now that he is tucking tail and slinking away on his belly? Oh yeah, that would be you.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

007 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...




D'oh!


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Watching Unks meltdown is worth every moment wasted reading this thread. 

Please, proceed


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





Wow, you're really dragging out your death scene here. Do you do Shakespeare?


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
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> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

THE PRICE HIKE


""We felt it was cumbersome and confusing.&#8221; As such, Yasuda does not have a space on its receipt for any gratuity. 
&#8220;We just take tipping out of the equation,&#8221; he says. 
How have customers reacted? After a bit of initial surprise among regular guests, &#8220;they don&#8217;t think twice about it,&#8221; says Rosenberg, who&#8217;s seen no change in customer volumes since the changeover. One gentleman, per Rosenberg, quipped that he&#8217;d now order 20% more sushi now that tipping is no longer required. 
The restaurant&#8217;s prices, of course, are now higher than they would be otherwise so Yasuda can continue to provide employees &#8220;with a good salary,&#8221; Rosernberg says. "


Hopefully, other establishments will follow suit.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)




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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Oh, look who's still here. How's all that "leaving now" treatin' ya? I hope you don't get too many scrapes on your belly.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Look at the nincompoops in this thread that preach about wanting to pay more for their meal so they don't have to tip ... And the management can pay higher wages.
> 
> *It isn't the people who have worked for tips*  Because people like me know you can make a hell of a lot more money from tips than from wages.
> It is people who want to take the opportunity away from those who perform better to be compensated better than their counterparts.
> ...



Right on ^^^^^^^^^


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Interesting article Unk, I liked it

http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/11/23/an-open-letter-to-the-tyrants-who-dont-leave-tips/

He makes an excellent point. Does this sound ummmmm



> Of course, the main justification offered by non-tippers is not so much based on principle as it is on punishment. They say they will not tip when the service is &#8220;bad.&#8221; But you&#8217;ll notice that these people somehow encounter &#8220;bad&#8221; service almost every time they go out to eat. What an odd thing. They must be cursed.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Interesting article Unk, I liked it
> 
> An open letter to the tyrants who don?t leave tips | The Matt Walsh Blog





Not so interesting, and has nothing to do with this discussion. Are you and  your straw man trying to change the subject because you have so clearly run out of anything to say on this topic?


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting article Unk, I liked it
> ...



Of course then there's this from the same link



> I often hear that the owners of the restaurants should pay a decent wage and then nobody would have to tip. Why should YOU have to pay the servers wage, you insist.
> 
> Good point. Lets require all restaurant owners to pay their wait staff, what, like 12  15 dollars an hour? Yes, now we dont have to tip and everyone is ha
> 
> ...


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Of course there will be higher prices when owners don't pay their staff $2.50/hr. This has been covered over and over and over here. Been hittin' the 'shine a little early today, champ?


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Of course there will be higher prices when owners don't pay their staff $2.50/hr. This has been covered over and over and over here. Been hittin' the 'shine a little early today, champ?



Unkotare. Prices will naturally increase

We AGREE to that point. 

The best argument I've heard against tipping is that somehow this price is a secret to the customer, a hidden charge. Really, who, with any upbringing in the real world can truly believe that?

I wish the restaurants in your link the best of luck. They will need it, but they will have a real battle with costs. In that business, given the need to produce a decent bottom line quickly, they will be severely tested. The bankers will be watching very closely.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > But if you think you can eliminate that system, and have Japan quality service, you are wrong and crazy.    You can't watch every single server, and monitor all service.   You can't make sure people get the highest quality service at all times.  Not possible.
> ...



Define 'here'?   The US?  It is good in places that tip.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Well then you should know better.   Either you are lying, or you are not managing anything that applies to this conversation.

Or perhaps you are one of the most lucky managers in the country.  It's possibly you are just extremely lucky.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > So how do you propose to enforce quality service?   .
> ...



That was the most stupid response from you yet.

So you are manager at a restaurant and the way you plan to make sure your waiters are providing great service..... is with Twitter or Facebook?

Really?  That's your brilliant response?      You need to either clarify that response, or you have officially discredited yourself from your own conversation.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Of course there will be higher prices when owners don't pay their staff $2.50/hr. This has been covered over and over and over here. Been hittin' the 'shine a little early today, champ?
> ...





Why would that be a good argument?


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...





Did I say that? There are many, many ways to use various technologies and/or social media  (to say nothing of all sorts of old-fashioned methods) as part of the responsibility to receive and respond to customer feedback. Is it too difficult a concept for you?


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...





I know better than to take your prejudiced view of the matter as anything other than what it is.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...




I've already provided links to places in the US that provide top service and do not accept tips.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> I wish the restaurants in your link the best of luck. They will need it, but they will have a real battle with costs.





They're doing great. If more establishments followed suit, they would quickly put an end to the archaic practice of tipping.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



It's not, so the argument seems weak.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





The 'argument' is that tipping is an idiotic practice that tries to put the owner's managerial responsibilities onto the customer. Charge a price for food, pay your employees, leave me out of it.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



But customers do not always give feed back, and even if they did, most do not tell you exactly which server it was, unless they did something specificaly bad.   Most servers don't give service so bad that they end up reported.

The problem is just lack luster service.   And most customers are not going to waste their time to go find your face book page just to say "Bobby didn't fill my glass up for 10 minutes."

I'm sorry, but that's not a solution.  You should know better.    You have convinced me you don't know what you are talking about.   Having worked in restaurants myself, I know better than that.   I don't even time to go around checking face book posts every day, to make sure servers are doing a good job.   Seriously....   you don't know what you are talking about.  Sorry.  You have discredited yourself from your own thread.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



But you are never going to be left out of it.    If we don't have the tipping system, then I'm going to charge you DIRECTLY a higher price.... to pay the tip.   The only difference will be that you will pay the tip without a choice in the matter.

So your service will decline.  That's how that works.  This isn't Japan.  Sorry.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> But customers do not always give feed back



It's a good manager's job to get that feedback, not just sit passively and wait for it.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> and even if they did, most do not tell you exactly which server it was




There are lots of ways to get that information. You sound like a shitty, lazy manager.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> The problem is just lack luster service.





If you don't know who is providing good service or not you are a crappy manager.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> If we don't have the tipping system, then I'm going to charge you DIRECTLY a higher price.... to pay the tip.





Not to pay the tip, to pay your employee their salary or hourly wage. How much you pay them is your job to negotiate, not mine as a customer.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> So your service will decline.  That's how that works.  .





There is no reason it has to. Service used to be much better in this country.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> [
> 
> So your service will decline.  That's how that works.  This isn't Japan.  Sorry.






It is offensive to me as an American that you think Americans are incapable of taking pride in their work.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



Yet another really dumb comment.

*I* take pride in my work.  I work my butt off.  I work as hard as I possibly know how.

Yet there are people in my company that simply don't, and they don't.

We're not Japan.  The culture there is different.  They have a very ingrained belief in the greater good.

We as a society, don't.   Some of us do, but most do not.

I just remembered back in early 2000s, I was working for a place, and there was an Asian manager there, and he gave a pep-talk about how we should work hard for the company, because it would benefit us to benefit the company.

The Americans laughed at that.   I know, I was there.   It illustrated the difference in culture right there.

So my point is, if you hire a bunch of people in your store in Japan, chances are that you will not have to worry about them.   Japanese are very much self motivated, and extremely polite, and take pride in their work no matter what it is.

You do the same thing here, and you don't get that result.   You can deny it, but you are wrong.  I know, I've been there and done that.   If you deny that, then you are either extremely lucky, or lying, or ignorant.

Hiring Generation U: Problems With the Recent Crop of College Grads - ERE.net



> My recent post on Generation U (underemployed and unemployed) generated an enormous amount of activity on ERE. This is a topic of some interest to recruiters, so in this post Ill focus on some of the challenges that this generation faces in getting and staying employed.
> 
> This group does not have a good image  the New York Post called it The Worst Generation, citing research that shows Gen U members as being very narcissistic and with a high sense of entitlement. Apparently they have a very inflated sense of self. They want to be CEO tomorrow, is a common refrain from corporate recruiters. A survey showed that when it comes to work, what Gen U cares about most are high salaries and lots of time off. They are also unable to take criticism  frequently believing they are doing great work when they arent.



This is reality.   This is the real American world.   You can either deny it, and be ignorant, or accept it for what it is.

Generation U, believes they are entitled, they are narcissistic, they want tons of money, and time off.   They think they are doing great work, when they suck.

This is translating more directly into customer relationship in stores and restaurants.   It's hard to see it, when it's in the corporate world, in a cubical somewhere.    But when they are plopping a plate down in front of you, and spilling your drink, or filling up your cup with flat soda, that's when you see it.

I'm not suggesting American's "can't" take pride in their work.  It's just simply that they don't.   They want time off.   They think their awesome when they suck.   That's what the modern American employee is.   I've seen this at my own work place too.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > So your service will decline.  That's how that works.  .
> ...



Yes, service was much better, and we've always had a tipping system.

We also had a protestant work ethic.   Now we have the Atheist no-work ethic.

No, there is no reason it has to be.   But.... it is.   Without that tipping system, service will decline.  Money is the motivator.    Should it be?   No.  But it is.

If you know of a way to remake American culture into the better aspects of the Japanese culture, I am all for it.   Please do so.   By all means.  We are in bad shape culturally.


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## Andylusion (Mar 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > If we don't have the tipping system, then I'm going to charge you DIRECTLY a higher price.... to pay the tip.
> ...



Dude... where do you think I get the money?   Every single penny that I pay them, comes from you.

I don't have magic money tree.   Do you?

So if you eliminate tips, then I have to pay them that money.   If I have to pay them that money, then I have to charge you that money.

If that employee is paid the $3 per table from me, instead of you..... then I have to charge you another $3.

*YOU* are going to pay that tip, whether you do it directly by choice, or through me through higher prices for your food.   Either way, you pay it.

You want to know how much Norway pays McDonald's employees?   $15 an hour.

Want to know how much Norway McDonald's charges customers?







$16 for a burger.   (91 Krone roughly translates to $15.50.  Notice, that's not the big mac meal, with a drink and fries.  That's just the burger alone)

They have no minimum wage by the way.

Where did the Norway McDonald's get the money to pay the higher wage?

From the customer.    McDonald's doesn't have a magic money tree either.

*YOU THE CUSTOMER* will ALWAYS.... pay the tip to the employees.  You either do it directly, by choice, when you get good service.... or you do it by force, through higher prices, whether you get good service or not.

Like I said.  I'd rather pay the tip only when I get good service.  If you'd rather pay the tip regardless of service, that's your choice, but I think it's a bad choice.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> We're not Japan.  The culture there is different.  They have a very ingrained belief in the greater good.
> 
> We as a society, don't.   Some of us do, but most do not.




Fuck you "most." We don't need your un-American pessimism in my country.


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## Pop23 (Mar 28, 2014)




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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Dude... where do you think I get the money?   Every single penny that I pay them, comes from you.






Great, pay them and leave me out of the salary negotiations.


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## Unkotare (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> *YOU THE CUSTOMER* will ALWAYS.... pay the tip to the employees.




No, I'll pay the bill. You pay your employee. Call it a tip, call it a donation, call it a sign of your great esteem for them, I don't care. Just post the price and then pay your people. Leave me out of the rest.


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## mamooth (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> We also had a protestant work ethic.   Now we have the Atheist no-work ethic.



Not being a bigot, I won't blame your unwillingness to pay your employee's wages on a religion or lack of religion.


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## Noomi (Mar 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> You want to know how much Norway pays McDonald's employees?   $15 an hour.
> 
> Want to know how much Norway McDonald's charges customers?
> 
> ...



There are just over 5 million people in Norway, and only about 73 McDonalds stores. They are justified in charging the high price because there are so few stores, most of which are frequented by tourists, who will pay the high price.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

After I banned tipping at my restaurant, the service got better and we made more money ? Quartz

"We became the first and, for years, the only table-service restaurant in America where you couldnt pay more money than the amount we charged you.
+
You can guess what happened. Our service improved, our revenue went up, and both our business and our employees made more money. "

Well, well, well...


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

From the same link:

"Researchers have found that customers don&#8217;t actually vary their tips much according to service. Instead they tip mostly the same every time, according to their personal habits.

Tipped servers, in turn, learn that service quality isn&#8217;t particularly important to their revenue. Instead they are rewarded for maximizing the number of guests they serve, even though that degrades service quality.

Furthermore, servers in tipping environments learn to profile guests (pdf), and attend mainly to those who fit the stereotypes of good tippers. This may increase the server&#8217;s earnings, while creating negative experiences for the many restaurant customers who are women, ethnic minorities, elderly or from foreign countries.

On the occasions when a server is punished for poor service by a customer withholding a standard tip, the server can keep that information to himself. While the customer thinks she is sending a message, that message never makes it to a manager, and the problem is never addressed."


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

And, just one more:

"You can see that tipping promotes and facilitates bad service. It gives servers the choice between doing their best work and making the most money. While most servers choose to do their best work, making them choose one or the other is bad business.
+
By removing tipping from the Linkery, we aligned ourselves with every other business model in America. Servers and management could work together toward one goal: giving all of our guests the best possible experience. When we did it well, we all made more money. As you can imagine, it was easy for us to find people who wanted to work in this environment, with clear goals and rewards for succeeding as a team."


Not so hard to understand after all...


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

He included an 18% charge to the ticket thus eliminating the possibility his help could earn more

It's a niche, nothing more


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

Their reviews are less than stellar. 

3 of 5 stars on yelp. Some of the comments are telling. 

http://m.yelp.com/biz/the-linkery-san-diego

Seems a lot of people posting comments on the yelp page think adding the 18% gratuity on the bill is a really bad idea.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Noomi said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > You want to know how much Norway pays McDonald's employees?   $15 an hour.
> ...



Yeah.........    lol....    The reason there are so few stores.... is because the price is so high, few will pay it.

If the local McDonald's increased the cost of a burger to $12, in order to pay employees a new Federal minimum wage of $12,    do you think that the same number of people are going to go there as do today?

This isn't that hard.    Price goes up, consumption goes down.

If you jack up the minimum wage to the same level as Norway, the number of stores will drop, because fewer people will frequent them, because the prices will be higher.

If the labor rates were lower in Norway, prices would be lower, and they would open more stores, thus providing more employment.


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

Hey Unk, the Yelp reviews of the Linkery gives it just 3 of 5 stars

If this was so successful, why close? Why not just open a second location?

How much more did the servers make after changing to no tips? The article seems to lack that information. 

How much more do the servers make now that he closed? It appears this might just be a fluff piece?

Wow, the more reviews you read about the no tip required linkery the more you don't like the idea. 

Seems the Owner is simply a bad operator. I wonder how much of the 18% gratuity he actually just pocketed himself? Can't really tell.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Their reviews are less than stellar.
> 
> 3 of 5 stars on yelp. Some of the comments are telling.
> 
> ...



Yelp is a joke though.  Competing stores often make negative comments.  You should pretty much ignore yelp.


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Their reviews are less than stellar.
> ...



I'm sure that could be the case, but also true is that the Owner/management also post positives. 

What is telling is that the restaurant closed. If you read the article you would think this was highly successful. Highly successful businesses expand, they don't close. Sure, close the current location if the building itself has problems and relocate down the street, but this ones relocating across the State?

Little or no sense.

Also, many of the negative comments came from people who post often on yelp that appear to travel quite a bit. You normally see competitor posts posted by someone who only posts once and never again. Not the case on many, many of these.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Freakonomics » Should Tipping Be Banned?


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Abolish Tipping: It?s bad for servers, customers, and restaurants

"When wealthy Americans brought home the practice of tipping from their European vacations in the late 19th century, their countrymen considered it bribery. State legislatures quickly banned the practice. But restaurateurs, giddy at the prospect of passing labor costs directly to customers, eventually convinced Americans to accept tipping.

We had it right the first time. Tipping is a repugnant custom. It&#8217;s bad for consumers and terrible for workers. It perpetuates racism. Tipping isn&#8217;t even good for restaurants, because the legal morass surrounding gratuities results in scores of expensive lawsuits.

Tipping does not incentivize hard work. The factors that correlate most strongly to tip size have virtually nothing to do with the quality of service. "


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Abolish Tipping: It?s bad for servers, customers, and restaurants
> 
> "When wealthy Americans brought home the practice of tipping from their European vacations in the late 19th century, their countrymen considered it bribery. State legislatures quickly banned the practice. But restaurateurs, giddy at the prospect of passing labor costs directly to customers, eventually convinced Americans to accept tipping.
> 
> ...



More puffery. Real life often proves puff pieces wrong.  See the yelp comments on your Linkery restaurant.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

BBC News - To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?


"Even though the quality of service doesn't affect tipping, Americans are under the illusion they are tipping on service and like the illusion of being able to reward. "





"It's a net drain on social welfare and our happiness. I think more people tip out of social obligation than tip because they want to, so people are parting with money they would rather keep.

"I don't know people are necessarily consciously aware of this. Most people would deny they tip for avoidance [of disapproval by peers and guilt], they say it's for good service, but I've looked at it and they don't reward good service substantially."




"The custom arrived in the US from Europe in the late 1800s but early in the 20th Century, an anti-tipping campaign gathered pace, driven by the view it was undemocratic and a means to create a servant class."


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

No comment on the real life events involving the Linkery? 

Seems it's a failure?


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

5 reasons we should ban tipping- MSN Money


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> 5 reasons we should ban tipping- MSN Money



So many links, so few success stories.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...op-list-best-tippers-survey-article-1.1363982


"More than half of the respondents said they would rather pay more on their overall bill than tip"

"A majority of the Americans surveyed (63%) admitted they feel pressured to tip even when the service is subpar."


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/magazine/where-to-get-the-worlds-best-service.html?_r=0


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> New Yorkers are the most generous tippers in U.S. says survey* - NY Daily News
> 
> 
> "More than half of the respondents said they would rather pay more on their overall bill than tip"
> ...



They shoulda eaten at the Linkery. No need to tip and it closed?

Got any comment or are you gonna keep posting fantasy puff pieces?


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)




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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

The end of restaurant tipping? - MarketWatch


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Dude... where do you think I get the money?   Every single penny that I pay them, comes from you.
> ...





Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > *YOU THE CUSTOMER* will ALWAYS.... pay the tip to the employees.
> ...



The bill includes the tip dude.   I don't know how to explain this any simpler, so that you can grasp this.

YOU ALWAYS pay the tip.   ALWAYS.    You either do it by choice, or by force.

You want to pay a higher price, and not tip?   Fine.  There are numerous places that do that.

Most people don't like those places, because the service sucks.

If you do... by all means do so.  Go to those places.   But even the link to the store you listed.... they don't exist anymore.

Now it's true that many people would like to ban tipping.  I agree with that.  Many people don't want to tip.

The problem there is, those people think that by banning tipping, that they would pay the same price, and just not have to tip.     They think that banning tipping, would save them money.

I'm telling you straight up, that you and those people, are wrong.    If you ban tipping, the store would have to pay that amount of the tip, in higher wages.... and that would have to be paid for by higher prices.

Linkery is closed.   They banned tipping, and increased wages, and increased prices, and customers stopped going there.

You are going to pay the tip whether you want to or not.  You can do so by choice, or by force.   Those are your options.

I'm going to keep repeating this truth to you until this thread is closed, because it's the truth.    You are ALWAYS part of salary negotiations.   Being left out of salary negotiations isn't an option.

Are you just economically illiterate?   It is absolutely impossible to leave out the customer from salary negotiations.    

Idiot:   "Let's pay our employees $50K a year!"

Economist:   "But the customers are not willing to pay enough for those kinds of wages"

Idiot:  "Let's leave the customer out of our salary negotiations..."

Economist:  "yeah... good luck with that"

The end of The Linkery | UTSanDiego.com



> The end of The Linkery
> North Park mainstay closing after eight years; sister restaurant Hubcap closing also



That whole leaving out the customer from wage considerations seems to have worked extremely well.......   I mean, it clearly worked, given they were open for only 6 years on the non-tip system.

By the way, did you actually read how it worked?

Tipless restaurants: The Linkery?s owner explains why abolishing tipping made service better.



> A couple of years after opening the Linkery restaurant in San Diego, the team and I adopted a policy of *adding to each dining-in check a service charge of 18 percent*



HELLO STUPID!!!!  YOU PAY THE TIP!

Your own citation PROVES what I have been saying the entire time.

YOU PAY THE TIP.

In a normal restaurant, you do it by choice.

At the Linkery (while it was still open), you do it by force, through them automatically adding 18%.

*YOU PAY THE TIP.*

Whether you want to or not.

*YOU PAY THE TIP!!! *  What part of this is too hard for you?

This is your own citation, and it proves EXACTLY what I said.

Every business that exists, does not have one penny that doesn't come from you the customer.   So you don't pay the tip yourself, and the business pays the tip... it gets that tip from *YOU*.

*YOU PAY THE TIP!!*

I'll keep repeating this as long as you keep repeating stupidity, until this thread is closed.


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)




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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> I don't know how to explain this any simpler...





No one has asked you to explain it, nor has anyone expressed the slightest problem understanding the situation.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> Most people don't like those places, because the service sucks...





You haven't demonstrated that "the service sucks" at all. If anything, the existing evidence suggests the opposite.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> Every business that exists, does not have one penny that doesn't come from you the customer.





This point has never been in contention, so all your hysteria is wasted and your 'courageous' declaration of your intention to spam this thread amounts to nothing more than trolling.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> The problem there is, those people think that by banning tipping, that they would pay the same price, and just not have to tip.






No one has indicated or suggested they think that. You may desperately want to argue about that because you feel it is the only point you can 'defend,' but it has never been in contention. 

If you intend to repeat yourself over and over regarding something no one is arguing about, you are just spamming, troll. Is that your intention, troll?


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

Why don't you post links to restaurants in the United States that have successfully instituted the no tip policy?

Proceed Grasshopper


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how to explain this any simpler...
> ...



You did, by denying reality over and over.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Most people don't like those places, because the service sucks...
> ...



Then why did the restaurant that your link cited, end up closed?   Apparently the service wasn't as great as you claim.

Or possibly, the service was great, but people didn't want to pay the higher prices?   18% is huge a mandatory tip.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...





No, I didn't. You're all excited to argue about it, but no one has argued the point that prices would go up so that owners could pay their workers a reasonable wage. No one, no matter how badly you want it to be so.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Every business that exists, does not have one penny that doesn't come from you the customer.
> ...



See you just told me that you didn't ask for a simpler explanation, and yet this posts suggest you need a simpler explanation.

Let's review!  

You claimed that you didn't want to be involved in wage negotiations.... and yet now you claim you understand that how much you are willing to pay determines wage negotiation.

So you are in fact involved. .... whether you want to be or not.    Do you need a simpler explanation?   Or maybe you got it now?


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > The problem there is, those people think that by banning tipping, that they would pay the same price, and just not have to tip.
> ...



No, what I said was in fact right.    Trying to accuse others of trolling is normally just an attempt to save face, after proving you have no valid counter point.   Is that your intention, to save face?


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## BlackSand (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> No, I didn't. You're all excited to argue about it, but no one has argued the point that prices would go up so that owners could pay their workers a reasonable wage. No one, no matter how badly you want it to be so.



You have yet to counter the argument from the people who make or have made a living off of tips.
I can honestly say that we really don't give a flying fuck if you tip or not ... Someone else will make up for what you cannot handle, don't like or just want to change.
I mean we get you don't like the tipping system ... But what you are talking about doesn't provide better service, better pay or the opportunity for people to earn extra through extra effort.

.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...




No, it doesn't. Are you drunk?


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > No, I didn't. You're all excited to argue about it, but no one has argued the point that prices would go up so that owners could pay their workers a reasonable wage. No one, no matter how badly you want it to be so.
> ...





Counter what argument, exactly?


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> I can honestly say that we really don't give a flying fuck if you tip or not ...
> 
> .




You are either being illogical, or just plain childish in suggesting anything about how I personally tip. Come on, you can do better.


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## BlackSand (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I can honestly say that we really don't give a flying fuck if you tip or not ... Someone else will make up for what you cannot handle, don't like or just want to change.
I mean we get you don't like the tipping system ... But what you are talking about doesn't provide better service, better pay or the opportunity for people to earn extra through extra effort.

.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> ... But what you are talking about doesn't provide better service, better pay or the opportunity for people to earn extra through extra effort.
> 
> .





It most certainly does.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...




You are trying - insisting - desperately to argue a point not in contention. You are either trolling, stupid, or some combination of both.


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## BlackSand (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> > ... But what you are talking about doesn't provide better service, better pay or the opportunity for people to earn extra through extra effort.
> ...



It most certainly doesn't.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



You posted the link dude.  Not me.    I just told you the facts that prices would go up.   And they did....  according to your link.

What is the difference between paying $22 for a meal and giving a $3 tip..... and paying $22 for a meal, and an 18% 'service fee' of $3 ?

The wages of the waiters isn't going to change either way.

Plan A
Paying $22 a meal, and giving the waiter a $3 tip.

Somehow that's "Owners not paying a reasonable wage".

Plan B
Paying $22 a meal, and paying an additional 18% 'service fee' of $3.

Somehow that's "Owners paying a reasonable wage".

The only difference between Plan A and Plan B is that if the service is bad in plan B, you still pay the tip.

It doesn't change how much the waiters are paid.

Again, your link proved my whole point.  You are going to pay the tip either way.   One way you choose, and the other way you have no choice.

I prefer to have the choice.


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > BlackSand said:
> ...





You want to play "nuh-uh! yeah-huh!" whereas I have provided copious sources to support my position. Interesting contrast, eh?


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...




It has been stated since page 1 that prices would go up. No one is arguing about that. Is it your intention to simply fill this thread with spam? At least have the balls to be up-front about it.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Well... now you are making up more stuff.  It's not there.  I went through the whole of page one.   Not seeing it.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> > ... But what you are talking about doesn't provide better service, better pay or the opportunity for people to earn extra through extra effort.
> ...



lol... you are turning into a clown.  No it does not.  And just saying it does, doesn't make it true.


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## Pop23 (Mar 29, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > No, I didn't. You're all excited to argue about it, but no one has argued the point that prices would go up so that owners could pay their workers a reasonable wage. No one, no matter how badly you want it to be so.
> ...



Unkatore is now just trolling his own thread. 

Time to kiss this thread goodbye, the OP can't justify his opinion so now he's just being argumentative to attempt to save face. 

Unk, Let me know when you actually have something real to discuss

Sad


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## Unkotare (Mar 29, 2014)

Androw said:


> just saying it does, doesn't make it true.




That's why I provided all those links.


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## Andylusion (Mar 29, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > just saying it does, doesn't make it true.
> ...



First those links only claimed to have better service.   That's not the same as actually having better service.

In fact, I can't think of any business initiative where they said "and our new system ruined quality and service!".

I did not see if you posted more actual examples, instead of empty claims, I didn't see any but two.   The New York Japanese place, which if it hires Japanese people, with Japanese work ethic, then just like those store in Japan, yes you don't need a tip system.

The other store in California.... it's gone.   Apparently it didn't work.

So, neither are very compelling.


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## Unkotare (May 1, 2014)

How Japan Has Perfected Hospitality Culture - WSJ.com


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## Luddly Neddite (May 1, 2014)

Tipping is a way to keep wages low.


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## Againsheila (May 1, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Tipping is a way to keep wages low.



I agree with Luddly


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## Andylusion (May 2, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Tipping is a way to keep wages low.



Option 1:   The store charges you $20, and you pay a 15% tip.

Option 2:   The store charges you $23, and pay the 15% tip.

Either way....   the employee is paid the same, and you pay the same.

The only difference is, in option 1, if you get bad service, you can refuse to pay the tip.

In option 2, you pay the tip no matter what service you get.

When you look at those two options, how does one or the other, keep wages low?  The wages are the same regardless.


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