# The Pain Keeps On Coming For Electric Car Owners



## longknife

by John Hawkins Ar Rightwingnews



> One day, the technology for electric cars may advance to the point where theyll be a better deal than gasoline-powered vehicles. However, that day is not today. Today, electric cars are underpowered, overpriced golf carts with limited range and expensive replacement parts. In essence, theyre cars for the short sighted and those rich enough to buy a car just to make a statement.
> 
> That much, most people already knew.



But theres yet another downside to electric cars that in hindsight, should have been easy to see, but in practice is just becoming widely known:*Theyre very difficult to resell. The PJ Tatler » Plug-In Cars Don


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## Mr. H.

Maybe a "cash for electric clunkers" is in order.


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## Katzndogz

The government could bail out the purchasers by buying the unwanted cars and giving them to poor people who will then need a subsidy to pay their electric bills.

Just like the car companies.


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## JustTheFacts

longknife said:


> by John Hawkins Ar Rightwingnews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One day, the technology for electric cars may advance to the point where theyll be a better deal than gasoline-powered vehicles. However, that day is not today. Today, electric cars are underpowered, overpriced golf carts with limited range and expensive replacement parts. In essence, theyre cars for the short sighted and those rich enough to buy a car just to make a statement.
> 
> That much, most people already knew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But theres yet another downside to electric cars that in hindsight, should have been easy to see, but in practice is just becoming widely known:*Theyre very difficult to resell.
Click to expand...


a bunch of crying about nothing.Mostly I suspect because of Obama and his perceived hand in advancing the electric car, never mind the FACT that electric cars have actually been around in some form or fashion Since Henry Ford's time.

I remember when my parents bought their first VCR , the damn thing cost them $600 Oh noway these catch on, way too much money. Now you can buy a VCR for like $20. Why is that? Oh that''s right, scale of sales.

The electric car has a place in today's market. NYC should switch their entire taxi fleet to electric cars as of yesterday, and yes GM should subsidize them however they have to to make sure they are Volts. 

There is no denying the immediate impact this would have on the city of NY, and that is just one example.

Just as obviously there are situations where an electric car is not a viable solution, and that is why no one should or will be forced to buy one

But getting mad that that they are on the market , and that the government would like to see a certain percentage of new cars sold be electric is just childish.


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## Mad Scientist

Just The Fags misses the mark.

The Electric car is pushed as a viable *replacement* for the Gas Powered Automobile, which it isn't.

Remind us again what the VCR was _*replacing*_?


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## JustTheFacts

Mad Scientist said:


> Just The Fags misses the mark.
> 
> The Electric car is pushed as a viable *replacement* for the Gas Powered Automobile, which it isn't.
> 
> Remind us again what the VCR was _*replacing*_?



The VCR was designed as a replacement for the 8MM systems that were used prior.

And by the way, the electric motor was introduced in cars before the gasoline engine was and many at the time were aghast at the idea that a gasoline engine could replace an electric motor.

and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is suggesting we could get rid of the internal combustion engine. They are only saying that in SOME instances it is a viable alternative , and it is, whether you want to see that or not. A flee of electric taxis in an urban environment would be fine and no compromises would have to be met.

Now, I'm not about arguing with people who won't accept basic facts, so if you insist that people want to completely replace the ICE with electric motors and insist that the electric has no place in today's society, well God's speed to you.


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## nitroz

I think it's obvious that they are meant for one owner.

Unless you don't mind refurbishing it.


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## longknife

JustTheFacts said:


> longknife said:
> 
> 
> 
> by John Hawkins Ar Rightwingnews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One day, the technology for electric cars may advance to the point where theyll be a better deal than gasoline-powered vehicles. However, that day is not today. Today, electric cars are underpowered, overpriced golf carts with limited range and expensive replacement parts. In essence, theyre cars for the short sighted and those rich enough to buy a car just to make a statement.
> 
> That much, most people already knew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But theres yet another downside to electric cars that in hindsight, should have been easy to see, but in practice is just becoming widely known:*Theyre very difficult to resell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> a bunch of crying about nothing.Mostly I suspect because of Obama and his perceived hand in advancing the electric car, never mind the FACT that electric cars have actually been around in some form or fashion Since Henry Ford's time.
> 
> I remember when my parents bought their first VCR , the damn thing cost them $600 Oh noway these catch on, way too much money. Now you can buy a VCR for like $20. Why is that? Oh that''s right, scale of sales.
> 
> The electric car has a place in today's market. NYC should switch their entire taxi fleet to electric cars as of yesterday, and yes GM should subsidize them however they have to to make sure they are Volts.
> 
> There is no denying the immediate impact this would have on the city of NY, and that is just one example.
> 
> Just as obviously there are situations where an electric car is not a viable solution, and that is why no one should or will be forced to buy one
> 
> But getting mad that that they are on the market , and that the government would like to see a certain percentage of new cars sold be electric is just childish.
Click to expand...


It would be a lot cheaper and quite effective to make minor adjustments so the NYC taxi fleet could run on natural gas - just like the YCS cabs do here in Vegas!!!


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## Ernie S.

JustTheFacts said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just The Fags misses the mark.
> 
> The Electric car is pushed as a viable *replacement* for the Gas Powered Automobile, which it isn't.
> 
> Remind us again what the VCR was _*replacing*_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The VCR was designed as a replacement for the 8MM systems that were used prior.
> 
> And by the way, the electric motor was introduced in cars before the gasoline engine was and many at the time were aghast at the idea that a gasoline engine could replace an electric motor.
> 
> and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is suggesting we could get rid of the internal combustion engine. They are only saying that in SOME instances it is a viable alternative , and it is, whether you want to see that or not. A flee of electric taxis in an urban environment would be fine and no compromises would have to be met.
> 
> Now, I'm not about arguing with people who won't accept basic facts, so if you insist that people want to completely replace the ICE with electric motors and insist that the electric has no place in today's society, well God's speed to you.
Click to expand...


A fleet of electric taxis in an urban environment would be nothing more than a bunch of rather inefficient, under powered, overpriced gasoline vehicles after about the first hour, or will you disable air conditioners and heaters?


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## JustTheFacts

Ernie S. said:


> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just The Fags misses the mark.
> 
> The Electric car is pushed as a viable *replacement* for the Gas Powered Automobile, which it isn't.
> 
> Remind us again what the VCR was _*replacing*_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The VCR was designed as a replacement for the 8MM systems that were used prior.
> 
> And by the way, the electric motor was introduced in cars before the gasoline engine was and many at the time were aghast at the idea that a gasoline engine could replace an electric motor.
> 
> and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is suggesting we could get rid of the internal combustion engine. They are only saying that in SOME instances it is a viable alternative , and it is, whether you want to see that or not. A flee of electric taxis in an urban environment would be fine and no compromises would have to be met.
> 
> Now, I'm not about arguing with people who won't accept basic facts, so if you insist that people want to completely replace the ICE with electric motors and insist that the electric has no place in today's society, well God's speed to you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A fleet of electric taxis in an urban environment would be nothing more than a bunch of rather inefficient, under powered, overpriced gasoline vehicles after about the first hour, or will you disable air conditioners and heaters?
Click to expand...


wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?


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## uscitizen

The joy keeps on rolling in for the Prius owners.


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## Missourian

JustTheFacts said:


> longknife said:
> 
> 
> 
> by John Hawkins Ar Rightwingnews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One day, the technology for electric cars may advance to the point where they&#8217;ll be a better deal than gasoline-powered vehicles. However, that day is not today. Today, electric cars are underpowered, overpriced golf carts with limited range and expensive replacement parts. In essence, they&#8217;re cars for the short sighted and those rich enough to buy a car just to make a statement.
> 
> That much, most people already knew.
> 
> 
> 
> But there&#8217;s yet another downside to electric cars that in hindsight, should have been easy to see, but in practice is just becoming widely known:*They&#8217;re very difficult to resell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> a bunch of crying about nothing.Mostly I suspect because of Obama and his perceived hand in advancing the electric car, never mind the FACT that electric cars have actually been around in some form or fashion Since Henry Ford's time.
> 
> I remember when my parents bought their first VCR , the damn thing cost them $600 Oh noway these catch on, way too much money. Now you can buy a VCR for like $20. Why is that? Oh that''s right, scale of sales.
Click to expand...



Unfortunately,  these electric cars are all Betamax's.


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## Politico

NYC taxis? That is the about as clueless as it gets lol.


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## JustTheFacts

Missourian said:


> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> longknife said:
> 
> 
> 
> by John Hawkins Ar Rightwingnews
> 
> But theres yet another downside to electric cars that in hindsight, should have been easy to see, but in practice is just becoming widely known:*Theyre very difficult to resell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a bunch of crying about nothing.Mostly I suspect because of Obama and his perceived hand in advancing the electric car, never mind the FACT that electric cars have actually been around in some form or fashion Since Henry Ford's time.
> 
> I remember when my parents bought their first VCR , the damn thing cost them $600 Oh noway these catch on, way too much money. Now you can buy a VCR for like $20. Why is that? Oh that''s right, scale of sales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately,  these electric cars are all Betamax's.
Click to expand...


What makes you say that? I mean obviously the technology is still improving, but the format is still valid.


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## Jarlaxle

JustTheFacts said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> The VCR was designed as a replacement for the 8MM systems that were used prior.
> 
> And by the way, the electric motor was introduced in cars before the gasoline engine was and many at the time were aghast at the idea that a gasoline engine could replace an electric motor.
> 
> and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is suggesting we could get rid of the internal combustion engine. They are only saying that in SOME instances it is a viable alternative , and it is, whether you want to see that or not. A flee of electric taxis in an urban environment would be fine and no compromises would have to be met.
> 
> Now, I'm not about arguing with people who won't accept basic facts, so if you insist that people want to completely replace the ICE with electric motors and insist that the electric has no place in today's society, well God's speed to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A fleet of electric taxis in an urban environment would be nothing more than a bunch of rather inefficient, under powered, overpriced gasoline vehicles after about the first hour, or will you disable air conditioners and heaters?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?
Click to expand...


Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range.  Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.

Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.


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## JustTheFacts

Jarlaxle said:


> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> A fleet of electric taxis in an urban environment would be nothing more than a bunch of rather inefficient, under powered, overpriced gasoline vehicles after about the first hour, or will you disable air conditioners and heaters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range.  Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.
> 
> Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.
Click to expand...


Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi. 

You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?


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## RightNorLeft

Heres an article from a driver who took a trip from hell in an electric auto. Tesla denies it.

The New York Times&#8217;s John M. Broder reported Friday that the Tesla Model S electric car he was test-driving repeatedly ran out of juice, partly because cold weather reduces the battery&#8217;s range by about 10 percent.
Broder&#8217;s trip turned into a nightmare, including a stretch with the conked-out car riding the back of a flatbed truck. 


Charles Lane: Obama?s electric car mistake - The Washington Post


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## Underhill

JustTheFacts said:


> And by the way, the electric motor was introduced in cars before the gasoline engine was and many at the time were aghast at the idea that a gasoline engine could replace an electric motor.



I've seen old electric car adds from the period that talked about gasoline vehicles as "explosion engine" cars...   

Marketing 101 stuff there.


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## Underhill

There are solutions to all the hurtles of electric cars.   They simply require investment.

Two such solutions are in the works

One of those are quick change batteries.   You stop by a station and swap your battery pack.   Not a much bigger headache than pumping gas.

Another, and even better for those used to a fill up station, is the development of liquid metal batteries where the liquid in batteries would hold a charge (I haven't read details but this is my understanding) and could be swapped out at a filling station.  

Either of these solutions could work so long as there was the infrastructure in place.


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## TruthSeeker56

The electric vehicles of today are not much better than the electric cars from 30-50 years ago. 

The bottom line is that the biggest problem with electric cars has NEVER been resolved.......the BATTERIES.

Battery evolution has been slow, and until somebody devises a legitimate way to store "energy in a box" that is more efficient and has much better longevity, ALL electric vehicles will remain nothing more than GLORIFIED GOLF CARTS.


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## Underhill

TruthSeeker56 said:


> The electric vehicles of today are not much better than the electric cars from 30-50 years ago.
> 
> The bottom line is that the biggest problem with electric cars has NEVER been resolved.......the BATTERIES.
> 
> Battery evolution has been slow, and until somebody devises a legitimate way to store "energy in a box" that is more efficient and has much better longevity, ALL electric vehicles will remain nothing more than GLORIFIED GOLF CARTS.



That is an extreme exaggeration.    The electrics of 30-50 years ago were half the size and had half the range of the best electrics today.  

Batteries are a limiting factor, but as I pointed out, it isn't something we can't overcome.   It would just require an infrastructure shift.   

Not likely at the moment, but it could happen very quickly if we really needed it to.


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## Jarlaxle

JustTheFacts said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range.  Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.
> 
> Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.
> 
> You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?
Click to expand...


Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort.  A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it.  Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps.  Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range.  Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful.  In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range.  Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.
> 
> Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.
> 
> You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort.  A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it.  Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps.  Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range.  Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful.  In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!
Click to expand...


Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines.  Lots of waste heat.


----------



## martybegan

JustTheFacts said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range.  Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.
> 
> Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.
> 
> You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?
Click to expand...


Its not range, its duration. Taxis cannot afford downtime greater than it takes to fill up the gas tank. If the full charge time is more than 15 minutes, the vehicle is useless.


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## martybegan

Underhill said:


> There are solutions to all the hurtles of electric cars.   They simply require investment.
> 
> Two such solutions are in the works
> 
> One of those are quick change batteries.   You stop by a station and swap your battery pack.   Not a much bigger headache than pumping gas.
> 
> Another, and even better for those used to a fill up station, is the development of liquid metal batteries where the liquid in batteries would hold a charge (I haven't read details but this is my understanding) and could be swapped out at a filling station.
> 
> Either of these solutions could work so long as there was the infrastructure in place.



How do you quick change a 500lb battery?


----------



## martybegan

Underhill said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.
> 
> You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort.  A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it.  Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps.  Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range.  Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful.  In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines.  Lots of waste heat.
Click to expand...


You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.


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## Underhill

martybegan said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are solutions to all the hurtles of electric cars.   They simply require investment.
> 
> Two such solutions are in the works
> 
> One of those are quick change batteries.   You stop by a station and swap your battery pack.   Not a much bigger headache than pumping gas.
> 
> Another, and even better for those used to a fill up station, is the development of liquid metal batteries where the liquid in batteries would hold a charge (I haven't read details but this is my understanding) and could be swapped out at a filling station.
> 
> Either of these solutions could work so long as there was the infrastructure in place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you quick change a 500lb battery?
Click to expand...


It's manageable.   It just requires a bit of design work.


----------



## Underhill

martybegan said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort.  A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it.  Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps.  Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range.  Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful.  In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines.  Lots of waste heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.
Click to expand...


No, I just don't see where it's relevant.


----------



## PoliticalChic

RightNorLeft said:


> Heres an article from a driver who took a trip from hell in an electric auto. Tesla denies it.
> 
> The New York Timess John M. Broder reported Friday that the Tesla Model S electric car he was test-driving repeatedly ran out of juice, partly because cold weather reduces the batterys range by about 10 percent.
> Broders trip turned into a nightmare, including a stretch with the conked-out car riding the back of a flatbed truck.
> 
> 
> Charles Lane: Obama?s electric car mistake - The Washington Post



I've been following that story......


"CNN journalists prove John Broder wrong by driving Tesla Model S over same route (Photos)
Two CNN Reporters, Abigail Bassett and Peter Valdes-Dapena set out to prove who was right in the battle over the mileage claims on the Model Tesla S by driving the same route that John Broder drove earlier today on Valentines day (February 14,2013) . Basically John Broder set out on a 200 mile trip and ran out of power, claiming the Tesla Model S ran out of battery long before Tesla promised it would. But Abigal Bassett and Peter Valdes Dapena drove the exact same route earlier today in similar conditions and the results were surprisingly different then what John Broder reported on. Long story short, they actually made the entire trip with range to spare (38 miles to be exact)."
CNN journalists prove John Broder wrong by driving Tesla Model S over same route - Fresno Car Buying | Examiner.com



Broder may have some 'splainin' to do.


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## PoliticalChic

Underhill said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.
> 
> You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course: a normal car (hybrid or not) uses engine heat for comfort.  A pure EV has no engine heat, therefore must create it.  Most (all I have seen, in fact) use heat pumps.  Heat pumps perform poorly in very cold conditions...and, of course, they use power, reducing range.  Directly from the driver of an EV: the heat is awful.  In 15-degree weather, the interior barely gets above freezing!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines.  Lots of waste heat.
Click to expand...


1.	An electric car requires an array of battery cells, almost 500 pounds worth. http://www.whitehouse.gov/files/documents/Battery-and-Electric-Vehicle-Report-FINAL.pdf

a.	GMs EV1 NiMH (nickel metal hydride) weighed in at 1,150-1,400 pounds. Nickel Metal Hydride | GREENDUMP and Berezow, Op.Cit., p. 99.

b.	The Chevy Volt has a lithium-ion battery that weights in at 435 pounds. GM press release: CHEVROLET VOLTS REVOLUTIONARY VOLTEC ELECTRIC DRIVE SYSTEM DELIVERS EFFICIENCY WITH PERFORMANCE




2..	The batteries are expensive, listed at $3,000-$4,000. Prius hybrid owners have been quoted at $7,000 and up. Behind the Hidden Costs of Hybrids - HybridCars.com

a.	It is unclear what replacement cost will be when labor is included.

3.	Since the batterys ability to recharge declines with use, it must be replaced at about 100,000 miles. And the nickel metal hydride leaks energy- about 20 percent of capacity within the first 24 hours. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/Nickel_based_batteriesbnn




4.	The batteries pose a dramatic detrimental effect on the environment due to polytetrafluoroethylene binder and nickel foam materials. Life cycle environmental assessme... preview & related info | Mendeley

5.	Basically, electric vehicles are dragging a lot of extra weight made of toxic materials in order to use stored energy that combustion vehicles can simply generate on the go. Berezow, Op. Cit., p.66.





6.	And, of course, the elephant in the room is highlighted by this question: when you charge your electric car at night, where is the electricity coming from? No, the wall is not the correct answer. Probably, a coal-fired power plant.back to square one.

7.	When the cost of replacing the batteries and the cost to recharge the batteries are considered, the cost to run a small electric car (non-hybrid) is about three times more than a conventional economy gasoline car. Since the cost of electricity tends to more or less follow the cost of fuel, it is unlikely that this ratio will change in the future. Electric cars are fun to have and drive, but you will not save money, nor will you really help the environment. Electric Cars. Critical Questions and Ansswers regarding Electric Cars including how to build an electric car, safety, and are they in fact cheaper to run than conventional electric vehicles.


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## PoliticalChic

JustTheFacts said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JustTheFacts said:
> 
> 
> 
> wait , what? You contend that electric vehicles have neither a/c nor heaters?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Running A/C or heat in a pure EV puts a major dent in its range.  Also, the heat (a heat pump) in an electric tends to be pretty weak.
> 
> Hybrids work well as taxis (and are already common enough, usually Escapes, Camrys, and Fusions), but true EV taxis are impractical.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Range is not much of a factor in a city taxi.
> 
> You have any evidence to support your claims about the heat in EVs?
Click to expand...




The April 2011 edition of Consumer Reports has some interesting comments about the Chevrolet Volt. The following is from the article.
 GMs plug-in hybrid goes gas-free for short trips, but is pricey.

1.	A weak electric heater is problematic.  It is quiet, has brisk acceleration, with a taut, supple ride. Due to the tepid warm air, the passengers were uncomfortable. When the temperature dips below 26, the engine will turn on even during the electric portion of the trip.

2.	The mph is not meaningful without knowing a trips length, because calculating fuel economy depends on the ratio of electric to gasoline use. 

a.	Weve been getting between 23 and 28 mpg, due to the winters freeze. The cars electric range is very susceptible to cold weather since the heater runs on electricity.

b.	Weve also found that an extended highway cruise shortens the electric range.


----------



## martybegan

Underhill said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, this is an advantage of the poor efficiency of combustion engines.  Lots of waste heat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I just don't see where it's relevant.
Click to expand...


Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.


----------



## martybegan

Underhill said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are solutions to all the hurtles of electric cars.   They simply require investment.
> 
> Two such solutions are in the works
> 
> One of those are quick change batteries.   You stop by a station and swap your battery pack.   Not a much bigger headache than pumping gas.
> 
> Another, and even better for those used to a fill up station, is the development of liquid metal batteries where the liquid in batteries would hold a charge (I haven't read details but this is my understanding) and could be swapped out at a filling station.
> 
> Either of these solutions could work so long as there was the infrastructure in place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you quick change a 500lb battery?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's manageable.   It just requires a bit of design work.
Click to expand...


Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.

Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.


----------



## Underhill

martybegan said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you quick change a 500lb battery?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's manageable.   It just requires a bit of design work.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.
> 
> Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.
Click to expand...


It could be done.   Simply design them as a drawer design so you pull up, the drawer slides out and into a tray and the new battery slides in place.  

You pull up, your battery is checked (to make sure it is good) pulled out, drop the new one in and off you go.  Could be quicker than fueling up.


----------



## Underhill

martybegan said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You also forge the integral electrical generation via the alternator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I just don't see where it's relevant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.
Click to expand...


Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw.   The biggest draw is the headlights.   And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

They are not eco friendly either.  The batteries are highly toxic for the earth and have to be dumped somewhere when they wear out.  Electric cars are actually very anti - green.   The irony of it all.


----------



## Underhill

Jeremiah said:


> They are not eco friendly either.  The batteries are highly toxic for the earth and have to be dumped somewhere when they wear out.  Electric cars are actually very anti - green.   The irony of it all.



That is true of the current crop of batteries (to some extent, although it is exaggerated). 

But I am confident, looking at new technologies on the horizon, that this too can be overcome.

I'm not claiming electric cars are the answer right now.   But most of the problems talked about in this thread can be managed.  

Sooner or later, if we don't manage to wipe ourselves out, we will have to make the transition.   Cars as they are today are not sustainable.    Even renewables like ethanol, while they might work in the short term, have their limitations.   

There is really only one long term alternative to electrics.   And it is being used now in one country. 

Hydrogen.  Drop a few large power plants in Yellowstone using geothermal power to extract hydrogen.  Zero emissions and a technology we could easily mainstream within 30 years if we put our minds to it.   

There is another upside to this type of plan as well.   It gives us new opportunities to study the Yellowstone Caldera.

Iceland tried this approach but running solo it has proved almost impossible.   Car manufacturers aren't likely to produce hydrogen cars specifically for a country with a third the population of New Hampshire. 

What they have managed to do is show us what is possible.


----------



## martybegan

Underhill said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's manageable.   It just requires a bit of design work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.
> 
> Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It could be done.   Simply design them as a drawer design so you pull up, the drawer slides out and into a tray and the new battery slides in place.
> 
> You pull up, your battery is checked (to make sure it is good) pulled out, drop the new one in and off you go.  Could be quicker than fueling up.
Click to expand...


An interesting concept, but the primary issue is if someone just spent $60k on a car (of which $10k is the battery) do you really think they want some replacement of unknown quality?


----------



## martybegan

Underhill said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I just don't see where it's relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw.   The biggest draw is the headlights.   And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.
Click to expand...


With electrics the low draw adds up.  This is why hybrids, and more specifically plug in hybrids are a much more viable technology than pure electrics.


----------



## Underhill

martybegan said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you have to be able to do it in under 10 minutes, similar to filling up a gas tank, or for a taxi its a worthless operation. It also has to be availible in multiple locations, like gas stations, or then the taxi has a raduis range from its home base.
> 
> Also on further review, some batteries can be up to 1000 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It could be done.   Simply design them as a drawer design so you pull up, the drawer slides out and into a tray and the new battery slides in place.
> 
> You pull up, your battery is checked (to make sure it is good) pulled out, drop the new one in and off you go.  Could be quicker than fueling up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> An interesting concept, but the primary issue is if someone just spent $60k on a car (of which $10k is the battery) do you really think they want some replacement of unknown quality?
Click to expand...


No, but this is why I would design the system to check any battery before pulling it out of the car.    Easy enough to do.


----------



## Underhill

martybegan said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw.   The biggest draw is the headlights.   And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With electrics the low draw adds up.  This is why hybrids, and more specifically plug in hybrids are a much more viable technology than pure electrics.
Click to expand...


Right now you are of course correct.    But we are seeing technology in the works now that will probably mean batteries will cost 10% of what they do now and offer more range.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Underhill said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I just don't see where it's relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw.   The biggest draw is the headlights.   And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.
Click to expand...


No, that is wrong!  The biggest draws on an electric is the HVAC.  I would bet the power steering is a close second.  Rear defroster can pull 20 amps by itself.


----------



## Bill Angel

There is also an all electric smartcar in the works:
Electric Smart ForTwo car might be the smartest one yet



She's a Real Cutie (the car that is...)


----------



## Slapshot28

It seems to me that there is some pretty bad information floating around on this thread.  I've owned a Chevrolet Volt for over two years now, and I'm a chemical engineer by formal training.  So, a few corrections:

1) Electric cars do not use heat pumps for heating.  They use resistance heaters.  Resistance heaters draw significant power, and reduce range in cold weather.  My Volt gets 40 miles of range in the summer and 30 miles of range in the winter.

2) Lithium ion batteries are not a severe issue for either manufacture or waste disposal.  Lithium is not terribly rare, or particularly toxic.  Rare earth magnets used in large electric motors are another matter.  But we've been using large electric motors for a long time now, so this is nothing new.

3) Obviously electric cars use electricity, and roughly half of US electricity is generated by burning coal.  Here's the good news: because electric motors are so much more efficient than gasoline engines (about 90% conversion efficiency versus about 30% conversion efficiency), electric vehicles "burn" much less fuel to get from Point A to Point B.  To go 40 miles, an EV or EREV burns about half the fuel of a conventional car.  That's a good thing, no matter how you slice it.

Clearly an EREV like the Volt (which I own) or an EV like a Tesla Model S (which I crave) is not suited for everyone, or for every application.  (For example, it sucks for towing boats even though most trains use EREV technology.)  But EV's are great for me and they are great for many other folks like me.

Lastly, I know most of you genuinely despise government bail-outs and tax-incentives.  I agree with you 100%.  I did not even apply for the Fuel-Efficient-Vehicle tax credit, so I paid full price for my Volt.  (I voted with my wallet on that one.)  That said, government intervention and incentives do have a place.  I try to keep an open mind in that regard.


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its relevant because every thing that is powered by the alternator in a gas powered car has to be powered by the battery in a pure EV car. From the radio to the winshield wipers everything increases the draw on the battery per unit time operated, thus decreasing the charge and the range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but most of those things are a relatively low draw.   The biggest draw is the headlights.   And with LED headlights they aren't all that bad either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, that is wrong!  The biggest draws on an electric is the HVAC.  I would bet the power steering is a close second.  Rear defroster can pull 20 amps by itself.
Click to expand...


If you have AC and a rear defroster.    So far as I am concerned neither is necessary.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Air conditioning is LEGALLY REQUIRED in some vehicles...and in the real world, cars have A/C.  It will be mandatory in a few years; defrosting is lousy without it.

Note that in a pure electric, heat is as big a draw as A/C.


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> Air conditioning is LEGALLY REQUIRED in some vehicles...and in the real world, cars have A/C.  It will be mandatory in a few years; defrosting is lousy without it.
> 
> Note that in a pure electric, heat is as big a draw as A/C.



Legally Required?   Where?

My parents live in Jamaica.   None of their vehicles have AC and they manage just fine.   I drove through Florida with 3 kids in a non air conditioned Van 10 years ago.  

Yes, AC is nice.   But it is not necessary.   Of course it isn't necessary.   As for heat, it is a problem, but not insurmountable.    

I suspect these things will be problematic in the near future but as engineering and battery technology becomes more advanced, it will become a non issue.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Legally required in class 7 & larger trucks in the US, as of (IIRC) 2011.  (Older trucks do not have to be retrofitted...but if equipped with A/C--most are--it must work.)  You may enjoy bathing it sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.

I decided about 10 minutes after I got my first car with air conditioning that I would never be without it again!


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> Legally required in class 7 & larger trucks in the US, as of (IIRC) 2011.  (Older trucks do not have to be retrofitted...but if equipped with A/C--most are--it must work.)  You may enjoy bathing it sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.
> 
> I decided about 10 minutes after I got my first car with air conditioning that I would never be without it again!



Care to show me a link to that legal requirement?    I searched the web and found nothing even hinting at it.  I drove a truck for 6 years without air conditioning.   Hauled mobile homes from Indiana all over the northeast.   It certainly was not necessary.   90% of the time I wouldn't have used it if I had it. 

It's actually kind of a pet peeve of mine that modern car manufacturers do not design cars with ventilation in mind.    Good ventilation can make a huge difference.    After all, air is flowing over the car at high speeds.   Why not take advantage of that?  

I can understand wanting it if you live in the southern states.    But even then it isn't necessity.  

And if the choice is between paying $25 a gallon for gasoline and doing without, necessity dictates most will go without.

It is not a necessity.


----------



## Jarlaxle

I think it's just a fiat passed by the DOT...I heard it from several different sources (one a DOT-enforcement cop).

Again: You may enjoy bathing in sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> I think it's just a fiat passed by the DOT...I heard it from several different sources (one a DOT-enforcement cop).
> 
> Again: You may enjoy bathing in sweat and smelling like a goat after a 10-minute car ride...but in the real world, air conditioning is NOT optional.



So you heard it somewhere.   Clearly a reliable source.  

And I didn't smell like a goat or bath in sweat after 3 days in a truck with no AC.   Sounds like a personal problem.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Yes, you did...you just got used to it and didn't realize it.

I heard it from someone who *enforces the DOT regulations on trucks and drivers*! So yes, he's a reliable source!


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> Yes, you did...you just got used to it and didn't realize it.
> 
> I heard it from someone who *enforces the DOT regulations on trucks and drivers*! So yes, he's a reliable source!



I've researched the hell out of it and the only thing I've found is that a lot of new trucks have AC linked into their defrost so it has to work as part of a DOT inspection.   

But it has nothing to do with AC for the driver.   It has to do with the defrosters.  

And no, I didn't.

The truck I drove had one of the old window vents.   With that sucker open I was bathed in air from outside.   The only time sweat was an issue was if the humidity and heat were both very high.    Which amounted to about 2-3 weeks a year usually in the northeastern states.   Sometimes more, sometimes less.   

The guys who sweat like pigs tend to be the ones used to sitting in a/c and then are stuck without it.     The human body can adjust to a great many things.   I have parents who live in Jamaica.   No AC, no hot water and they are happy as clams.   They have big windows and an ocean breeze.   No worries.   

It's all in what you are used to.    People are spoiled these days.


----------



## Jarlaxle

So...100 degree air blowing on your is a cooling effect?  Yeah...no, actually, it doesn't.  If anything, it makes it worse.  I'm sure it works GREAT in 90-degree weather stuck in traffic!  Wait, no...it doesn't.  You DID smell like a goat...but you didn't notice, because you were used to it.

Jamaica isn't generally hot...average temperature is low 80's...and, of course, there is always a sea breeze.  Not much sea breeze in, say, northern Alabama in July!

A/C has come on with the defroster since at least the early 70's, and probably before that


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> So...100 degree air blowing on your is a cooling effect?  Yeah...no, actually, it doesn't.  If anything, it makes it worse.  I'm sure it works GREAT in 90-degree weather stuck in traffic!  Wait, no...it doesn't.  You DID smell like a goat...but you didn't notice, because you were used to it.
> 
> Jamaica isn't generally hot...average temperature is low 80's...and, of course, there is always a sea breeze.  Not much sea breeze in, say, northern Alabama in July!
> 
> A/C has come on with the defroster since at least the early 70's, and probably before that



As I have pointed out, it may be nice to have.  It's certainly important if you live in the south.   But it is not necessary.

Even if I did stink, that does not make it necessary.    

And yes, 100 degree air flowing over you does help.    As long as you hydrate and are in decent health it shouldn't hurt you.   

As for defrosters, yes it can be integrated.   But you can still walk into a Nissan/Porsche/Hyundai Dealer and buy a car without AC, so it is certainly not legally required.

Last but not least, Jamaica may average in the 80's but they sure as hell have a lot of days way over that.    At least as many as anywhere in Georgia.    Go a few miles inland and there is no sea breeze and virtually nobody has AC.   Do they sweat?  Sure.   But sweat isn't life threatening.


----------



## Jarlaxle

*Porsche*?!?!  Other than dedicated track cars, have they built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?!  I defy you to find any new car without A/C.  Again: in the *real world*, new cars have A/C.


----------



## longknife

Why has this thread slid downhill into another insignificant peeing contest?


----------



## Slapshot28

For those of you who despise subsidies so much, I do hope that you will join this "party": DailyTech - Ethanol Industry Pokes Fun at Big Oil in 100th Birthday Celebration for Subsidies



> Big Oil, which is already the most profitable industry in the world, still receives subsidies. The oldest, continuous subsidy was enacted in 1913, which is the topic of the birthday party.



From a member at GM-Volt.com (Happy 100th Birthday Oil Subsidies):



> Currently, there are more than 250 different kinds of subsidy and tax break programs for the fossil fuel industry, totalling more than *$50B per year*, not including the military deployments and wars we don't need to fight to serve the oil industry. After 100 years, *$5 Trillion total*. I couldn't imagine the humungous financial debt we have incurred if we include the actual financial costs and lives lost by protecting the oil industry using our military might.



And how much has the Volt tax credit cost us?  Oh, about $300M (= 40,000 vehicles x $7,500), or 0.6% of the annual oil subsidies.

Hold on.  I almost forgot the GM bail-out.  But wait (Government sells big hunk of GM stock):



> The government now has recovered about $29.8 billion of its $49.5 billion GM bailout, which helped the company navigate Chapter 11 bankruptcy and chart a path toward survival.



Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea to keep America in the car business.

And maybe it's not such a bad idea to spend _a liitle_ money to encourage development of alternative and/or green fuels.


----------



## Underhill

longknife said:


> Why has this thread slid downhill into another insignificant peeing contest?



Reasonable question.   I don't know.   It seems some people do not understand the difference between needs and wants.


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> *Porsche*?!?!  Other than dedicated track cars, have they built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?!  I defy you to find any new car without A/C.  Again: in the *real world*, new cars have A/C.



The Porsche GT2, the GT3, the Nissan Versa, the Chevy Aveo, the Toyota Yaris...


----------



## Jarlaxle

Again: Other than *dedicated track cars*, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?  The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!

Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris.  In the real world, they have A/C!  The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata.  Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!


----------



## Derideo_Te

Slapshot28 said:


> It seems to me that there is some pretty bad information floating around on this thread.  I've owned a Chevrolet Volt for over two years now, and I'm a chemical engineer by formal training.  So, a few corrections:
> 
> 1) Electric cars do not use heat pumps for heating.  They use resistance heaters.  Resistance heaters draw significant power, and reduce range in cold weather.  My Volt gets 40 miles of range in the summer and 30 miles of range in the winter.
> 
> 2) Lithium ion batteries are not a severe issue for either manufacture or waste disposal.  Lithium is not terribly rare, or particularly toxic.  Rare earth magnets used in large electric motors are another matter.  But we've been using large electric motors for a long time now, so this is nothing new.
> 
> 3) Obviously electric cars use electricity, and roughly half of US electricity is generated by burning coal.  Here's the good news: because electric motors are so much more efficient than gasoline engines (about 90% conversion efficiency versus about 30% conversion efficiency), electric vehicles "burn" much less fuel to get from Point A to Point B.  To go 40 miles, an EV or EREV burns about half the fuel of a conventional car.  That's a good thing, no matter how you slice it.
> 
> Clearly an EREV like the Volt (which I own) or an EV like a Tesla Model S (which I crave) is not suited for everyone, or for every application.  (For example, it sucks for towing boats even though most trains use EREV technology.)  But EV's are great for me and they are great for many other folks like me.
> 
> Lastly, I know most of you genuinely despise government bail-outs and tax-incentives.  I agree with you 100%.  I did not even apply for the Fuel-Efficient-Vehicle tax credit, so I paid full price for my Volt.  (I voted with my wallet on that one.)  That said, government intervention and incentives do have a place.  I try to keep an open mind in that regard.



Refreshing to read a knowledgeable post in this thread. The endless bashing of EV and EREV vehicles is tiresome. Even the Saudi's are investing heavily in solar power because they see a market in the EU nations for electricity.


----------



## Derideo_Te

longknife said:


> Why has this thread slid downhill into another insignificant peeing contest?



Probably inevitable given the original premise. For a thread to remain vital it requires opposing points of view. For instance the premise that resale is a problem is disproven by the fact that the Prius retains 50% of it's original value after 5 years. Since that is probably the benchmark EREV vehicle it bodes well for other EV's in the future. However until there is more data it is too soon to predict that resale values will be any different to those of ICE vehicles. The range of EV's is increasing and that is probably going to continue given that there is a market demand. Another complaint was that EV's are just glorified golf carts. The reality is that EV's have better acceleration that traditional ICE vehicles. As far as cabs go NYC is already using them and NYPD uses EREV's too.


----------



## Jarlaxle

> 1) Electric cars do not use heat pumps for heating. They use resistance heaters. Resistance heaters draw significant power, and reduce range in cold weather. My Volt gets 40 miles of range in the summer and 30 miles of range in the winter.



Nissan Leaf uses a heat pump.  Tesla uses a heat pump.  EV1 used a heat pump.  You fail.


----------



## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> Again: Other than *dedicated track cars*, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?  The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!
> 
> Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris.  In the real world, they have A/C!  The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata.  Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!



A/C is optional on a host of small cars, some of which I listed.   And a lot of them are sold that way in the northern parts of the country where AC is often a waste.

The reason it is a waste is 1) It means worse mileage.  Not a lot but a bit.  2) The systems break down a lot more up here. (3 months of use with 9 months of in-operation means a lot of corrosion issues).   and 3) They just aren't necessary.  

Where I live there are 3 months out of the year where the temperature might get hot enough to warrant it.    In my hometown virtually none of the homes have AC.     My wife and I looked at dozens of homes before buying ours and not one of them had AC.   

Do you understand the difference between a need and a want?    One might want AC.   Might want it really bad.   But need?   Very few people.   Extreme asthmatics, the very frail who live in the deep south...   

Will most people opt for it if it's included?   Of course they will.    Will most people pay a bit extra for it?   Probably.    But is it necessary for survival?   No.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Underhill said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again: Other than *dedicated track cars*, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?  The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!
> 
> Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris.  In the real world, they have A/C!  The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata.  Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A/C is optional on a host of small cars, some of which I listed.   And a lot of them are sold that way in the northern parts of the country where AC is often a waste.
Click to expand...


Wow, what a pile.  News flash: I live in the "northern part of the country".  Guess what: NEW CARS HAVE AIR CONDITIONING!  Dealers WILL NOT TAKE a trade-in without it.



> The reason it is a waste is 1) It means worse mileage.  Not a lot but a bit.



Only at low speeds.  Above about 35MPH, open windows cause more drag than the A/C.  



> 2) The systems break down a lot more up here. (3 months of use with 9 months of in-operation means a lot of corrosion issues).



What a pile.  First, the A/C comes on *every time you use the defroster.*  It runs until it's cold...my Magnum's ran with the defroster down to about 25 degrees.  Second...there just aren't that many issues with the systems.  Both my Caprices went 15+ years with no A/C problems.  My Jeep went 14 years (and 170,000 miles).  My work trucks has never had the A/C serviced...it's a 2007 with 155,000 miles., it blows cold.  (Well, as cold as Freightliner's lousy A/C ever blows.)  One of the wreckers myh wife drives runs a JC Whitney system from the early 80's...it needed service (and replacement of the damaged condenser) when the truck was bought, hasn't needed anything in the 10+ years since.



> and 3) They just aren't necessary.



Neither are radios, computers, or many other things.  I bet you have plenty of "unnecessary" things.



> Where I live there are 3 months out of the year where the temperature might get hot enough to warrant it.    In my hometown virtually none of the homes have AC.     My wife and I looked at dozens of homes before buying ours and not one of them had AC.



And hey...I bet there are LOTS of window air conditioners used in that area!  I use one.  (My old house doesn't have central A/C.)



> Do you understand the difference between a need and a want?    One might want AC.   Might want it really bad.   But need?   Very few people.   Extreme asthmatics, the very frail who live in the deep south...
> 
> Will most people opt for it if it's included?   Of course they will.    Will most people pay a bit extra for it?   Probably.    But is it necessary for survival?   No.



Your point?  Wait...you have none.


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## Underhill

Jarlaxle said:


> Underhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again: Other than *dedicated track cars*, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years?  The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!
> 
> Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris.  In the real world, they have A/C!  The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata.  Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A/C is optional on a host of small cars, some of which I listed.   And a lot of them are sold that way in the northern parts of the country where AC is often a waste.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, what a pile.  News flash: I live in the "northern part of the country".  Guess what: NEW CARS HAVE AIR CONDITIONING!  Dealers WILL NOT TAKE a trade-in without it.
> 
> 
> 
> Only at low speeds.  Above about 35MPH, open windows cause more drag than the A/C.
> 
> 
> 
> What a pile.  First, the A/C comes on *every time you use the defroster.*  It runs until it's cold...my Magnum's ran with the defroster down to about 25 degrees.  Second...there just aren't that many issues with the systems.  Both my Caprices went 15+ years with no A/C problems.  My Jeep went 14 years (and 170,000 miles).  My work trucks has never had the A/C serviced...it's a 2007 with 155,000 miles., it blows cold.  (Well, as cold as Freightliner's lousy A/C ever blows.)  One of the wreckers myh wife drives runs a JC Whitney system from the early 80's...it needed service (and replacement of the damaged condenser) when the truck was bought, hasn't needed anything in the 10+ years since.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither are radios, computers, or many other things.  I bet you have plenty of "unnecessary" things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where I live there are 3 months out of the year where the temperature might get hot enough to warrant it.    In my hometown virtually none of the homes have AC.     My wife and I looked at dozens of homes before buying ours and not one of them had AC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And hey...I bet there are LOTS of window air conditioners used in that area!  I use one.  (My old house doesn't have central A/C.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you understand the difference between a need and a want?    One might want AC.   Might want it really bad.   But need?   Very few people.   Extreme asthmatics, the very frail who live in the deep south...
> 
> Will most people opt for it if it's included?   Of course they will.    Will most people pay a bit extra for it?   Probably.    But is it necessary for survival?   No.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your point?  Wait...you have none.
Click to expand...


My point is obvious.   You claimed AC is necessary.   It obviously isn't.

You assume that people will not have to give anything up in the upcoming changes coming to our automotive industry.   There is a chance you are right.   But short of a miracle bio fuel, all the options that do not involve gasoline or diesel engines have range issues.   

So like it or not, we may see changes coming.   And the first things on that list will be anything that isn't necessary that draws large amounts of power...


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