# Green Energy wont work - Who are you kidding?



## Vanda

I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?


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## SFC Ollie

Yes green energy can and I believe it eventually will work.  

However, it must work because science has the breakthroughs needed and it must work without Government funding or subsidies.

Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.


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## manu1959

it is easy....

put a solar array on your roof amd plug all your shit into it.....you are off the grid....

put a water storage tank in your back yard with pumps and filters and recirculate all your grey water and runoff for irrigation.....

piece of cake.....office buildings can do it.... anyone can.....

go look up sonoma mountain village or one planet living.....


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## Old Rocks

SFC Ollie said:


> Yes green energy can and I believe it eventually will work.
> 
> However, it must work because science has the breakthroughs needed and it must work without Government funding or subsidies.
> 
> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.



Yeah, the government funded a study in 1948 on something called semiconductors, a real waste of money, right?


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## Vanda

SFC Ollie said:


> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.



Then you agree with me - it is just a dream.


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## Vanda

Old Rocks said:


> Yeah, the government funded a study in 1948 on something called semiconductors, a real waste of money, right?



but semiconductors made things easier for the average American -quicker and more instant results.  Green energy is asking for too many sacrifices to our way of life.  We are used to having decent sized cars among other things.  We wont change until we are forced into it.


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## SFC Ollie

Vanda said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you agree with me - it is just a dream.
Click to expand...


Temporarily. I believe there will be a few more scientific breakthroughs that will make green energy viable, and I believe we will see these in the next 10 to 20 years. A lot of it in battery development.
 And yet who says that solar or wind will be the energy of the future?

There may be something else out there we haven't dreamed of yet.


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## homeontherange

SFC Ollie said:


> Yes green energy can and I believe it eventually will work.
> 
> However, it must work because science has the breakthroughs needed and it must work without Government funding or subsidies.
> 
> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.



But don't the oil companies have government funding and subsidies?


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## Oddball

> Green Energy wont work - Who are you kidding?


The question isn't whether it will work but whether it will ever break even, let alone turn a buck.

After all, even though I can make a broken down Pinto work, that doesn't mean I want to drive one.


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## Vanda

homeontherange said:


> But don't the oil companies have government funding and subsidies?



they provide us with needed energy for our armed forces to do their jobs.  Shouldnt they be getting the subsidies?


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## Tranquility1

I have one question:  

Why do we have to "industrialize" everything?

Whenever green energy comes up, everyone always points to some behemoth of a plant.  Why can't we just take individual responsibility of our own energy needs?   At the beginning of 2010 I visited a lovely Resort on Costa Maya, which is fully self sustaining for all their energy needs.  They have the solar.  They have the windmills and a few other contraptions.  It works.   No huge plant.  No industrialized energy.  Self sustaining.  Individual responsibility.


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## SFC Ollie

homeontherange said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes green energy can and I believe it eventually will work.
> 
> However, it must work because science has the breakthroughs needed and it must work without Government funding or subsidies.
> 
> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't the oil companies have government funding and subsidies?
Click to expand...


I don't know, they make a huge profit, if they get subsidies it needs to end.


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## Oddball

homeontherange said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes green energy can and I believe it eventually will work.
> 
> However, it must work because science has the breakthroughs needed and it must work without Government funding or subsidies.
> 
> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't the oil companies have government funding and subsidies?
Click to expand...

So, it's not really about making something that actually works and pays for itself, but horning in on your "fair share" of the graft, huh?


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## SFC Ollie

> For two years, the city of Durango, Colo., bought electricity for all its government buildings from wind farms. The City Council ended that program this year, reverting to electricity derived from coal-burning plants and saving the cash-strapped city about $45,000.


Going green can cost too much green - USATODAY.com


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## Tranquility1

Several of our large buildings are augmenting their electricity with rooftop windmills and solar panels.  Again...  Individual responsibility.


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## Oddball

Earning money and paying your electric bill is responsible, too.


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## homeontherange

Dude said:


> homeontherange said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes green energy can and I believe it eventually will work.
> 
> However, it must work because science has the breakthroughs needed and it must work without Government funding or subsidies.
> 
> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't the oil companies have government funding and subsidies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, it's not really about making something that actually works and pays for itself, but horning in on your "fair share" of the graft, huh?
Click to expand...


Not at all, but it seems like the playing field is asymmetrical.  I am not naive.  Does oil exploration and refinement pay for itself?  I mean, when you figure in all the external costs?


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## Tranquility1

"Going green can cost too much?"

That's like saying that nutritious food and vitamins are too expensive.  I choose nutritious food and vitamins and spend very little money on Doctors.  I have friends who eat the junk and bypass the vitamins.  They are paying a fortune in doctor bills & medication.  In the long run, I am the one who saves money...  Not only that, but I look and feel better too!


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## Big Fitz

Vanda said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the government funded a study in 1948 on something called semiconductors, a real waste of money, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but semiconductors made things easier for the average American -quicker and more instant results.  Green energy is asking for too many sacrifices to our way of life.  We are used to having decent sized cars among other things.  We wont change until we are forced into it.
Click to expand...

Save yourself the headache and put Ole Rocks on ignore before the seasonal rush.  He spouts nothing but BS and disinformation from the econazi left.

Green energy is mostly non-viable now in any mass quantity.  You can do well with getting yourself off the grid, or something like that through solar and wind power... for the MOST part.  But till battery/capacitor technology dramatically improves as well as working the kinks out of the power collection systems like Solar or Wind, they will never be more than situational peaking plants as long as it's windy  or clear daytime.  For a stable and sound power grid to handle all modern needs, you still will need petroleum, coal, hydro and nuclear well into the next century... unless a miracle occurs.  Figure this... with the exception of scrubbers and environmental controls, the power grid technology we use is still what was invented by Nikola Tesla for Westinghouse and Thomas Edison over 130 years ago.  There will be no quick change.


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## Oddball

Tranquility1 said:


> "Going green can cost too much?"
> 
> That's like saying that nutritious food and vitamins are too expensive.  I choose nutritious food and vitamins and spend very little money on Doctors.  I have friends who eat the junk and bypass the vitamins.  They are paying a fortune in doctor bills & medication.  In the long run, I am the one who saves money...  Not only that, but I look and feel better too!


Non sequitur.

Nobody is forcing you to subsidize their choices of food or pay their doctor bills (yet).


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## Tranquility1

Non sequitur indeed!

You completely missed my point!


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## Oddball

Your point is pointless.

You're comparing apples and helicopters.


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## Big Fitz

Tranquility1 said:


> "Going green can cost too much?"
> 
> That's like saying that nutritious food and vitamins are too expensive.  I choose nutritious food and vitamins and spend very little money on Doctors.  I have friends who eat the junk and bypass the vitamins.  They are paying a fortune in doctor bills & medication.  In the long run, I am the one who saves money...  Not only that, but I look and feel better too!


I would like to know what the first priority is for you when you go grocery shopping.   The second thing I'd love to know is what percentage of your monthly budget is consumed by groceries.


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## shassy

Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.


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## Old Rocks

Dupont was selling 100 watt solar panels for $120 a peice. Was, they are sold out. The speed at which solar is coming down in price will make that viable for any homeowner with space to put it up.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJY-epayVcc]YouTube - New Solar Panels from DuPont[/ame]


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## Oddball

Wha....Did USMB put up a billboard outside a granola muncher convention?


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## Vanda

shassy said:


> Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.



This accident in the Gulf is a rare situation.  We cannot deny our armed service members the energy they need and bring our economy to a halt because of an accident.    Let me ask you this, do you use an air conditioner?  Personally I dont care to live in a hippy commune...good one about the granola munchers, BTW  lol


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## Old Rocks

Wind is competative enough 

Wind Energy Outlook for North America  Pike Research

In 2008, United States wind power generation capacity passed the 25 gigawatt mark by adding over 8 gigawatts from the year before, which represented the largest individual gain of any country in the world. This growth rate of 50% exceeded that of the year before, indicating that the market is still relatively young and has room to grow, despite the economic slowdown. The market for wind turbines will continue to grow through 2015 driven by new generation additions as well as replacements of smaller, older turbines with new, larger, more efficient turbines. In 2007, generation capacity from renewable sources made up only 4% of the world&#8217;s electricity sources, but 16% of new electricity generation capacity additions were from renewables with wind power making up more than 80% of these gains by renewables


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## Tranquility1

I have to return to work.  

Here is what I have to say:

Dirty energy is last century's energy.

The only reason it's still in power is because Dirty Energy Money "oils" the squeaky wheels of our Political Machine.  We all know it.

Electricity was not embraced overnight.  Tesla, Edison, Faraday...   It took many years for their inventions to take hold.  Westinghouse opened the first major plant at Niagara Falls in 1985 and by 1920, only 2% of the energy in the US was used to make electricity.  I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks; it just takes a long time...  

We are seeing the same thing now, at the juncture of our transition to clean energy.   

We can not look to our so called "Leaders" to show us the way, for most of them are sold to Dirty Energy, who put them in power in the first place.  

A new breed of human has already been raised.  This new breed understands that by sucking Mother Nature dry of all its limited resources, we are indeed writing our own Death Sentence!

Clean, sustainable energy is here to stay, whether the old guard is ready to accept it or not.  

"...And that's all I'm gonna say about that!"


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## Old Rocks

Vanda said:


> shassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This accident in the Gulf is a rare situation.  We cannot deny our armed service members the energy they need and bring our economy to a halt because of an accident.    Let me ask you this, do you use an air conditioner?
Click to expand...


*Hmmm........*

Military Leaders Push for Alternative Energy | APRN

Military Leaders Push for Alternative Energy
Tue, July 6, 2010 
Posted in Alaska News

Joaqlin Estus, KNBA  Anchorage

A new group of advocates for renewable and alternative energy plan is emerging: veterans and retired military leaders. A national advocacy group called Operation Free organized a panel of speakers in Anchorage Tuesday.

The nations dependence on fossil fuels and climate change are already leading to increased costs for the military, says Retired Marine Corps Lieutenant General John Castellaw. And he says leaders are considering what to do about military bases that will be under water due to rising ocean levels.  The military is also getting hit by the rising cost of fuel, which, in Afghanistan, is soaring:

The group says climate change will bring increased instability due to shortages of water and food, mass migrations and natural disasters as well as extremism and terrorism. The U.S. military may need to intervene to protect countries with extensive oil reserves. U. S. Senator Mark Begich says Americas dependence on oil is undermining its strategic position in the world:


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## Old Rocks

Military Tests Solar Field Hospital


Researchers from Florida University recently began testing a new field hospital design in the Honduran jungle. U.s. Military and emergency response teams are hopeful that the project will be a success, as each unit would be able to desalinate up to 400 gallons of water per day, and produce enough electricity to power an average American household. The portable hospitals will use thin-film solar technology, but can also be powered using wind and micro-hydro, or even biofuels. The military plans to adopt the system for worldwide use if the tests are a success.


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## Oddball

The military also tested atomic fallout by marching soldiers in it and tested LSD by surreptitiously giving soldiers up to 50 hits of it...How'd those little "experiments" work out?


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## shassy

Vanda said:


> shassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This accident in the Gulf is a rare situation.  We cannot deny our armed service members the energy they need and bring our economy to a halt because of an accident.    Let me ask you this, do you use an air conditioner?
Click to expand...


Our economy will come to a halt due to this accident. I acknowledge that I can make changes in my lifestyle but being limited by CHOICES makes it even harder. Do you own stock in BP or one of the other oil companies?


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## homeontherange

I am still researching the amount of those subsidies and tax breaks.

Can someone tell me why the servicemembers are there in the first place?  I still haven't figured that out.


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## Old Rocks

Dude said:


> The military also tested atomic fallout by marching soldiers in it and tested LSD by surreptitiously giving soldiers up to 50 hits of it...How'd those little "experiments" work out?



Ah Dooodeee.....  Still practicing at being stupid. You are getting it down to an art.


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## Big Fitz

> Dirty energy is last century's energy.



Tell that to the Russians and Chinese.  Putin went so far as to drop ALL green initiatives saying "Russia will not pursue ANY energy that is not carbon or nuclear based.  The chinese just built the Three Gorges Dam that has flooded hundreds of square miles of land and destroyed many dozen villages.


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## Oddball

Right...They didn't work out well at all.

So much for your vapid argument that because the military is doing something, it's necessarily a good idea.


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## Old Rocks

Big Fitz said:


> Dirty energy is last century's energy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the Russians and Chinese.  Putin went so far as to drop ALL green initiatives saying "Russia will not pursue ANY energy that is not carbon or nuclear based.  The chinese just built the Three Gorges Dam that has flooded hundreds of square miles of land and destroyed many dozen villages.
Click to expand...


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/business/energy-environment/25solar.html?_r=1

WUXI, China  President Obama wants to make the United States the worlds leading exporter of renewable energy, but in his seven months in office, it is China that has stepped on the gas in an effort to become the dominant player in green energy  especially in solar power, and even in the United States.

Chinese companies have already played a leading role in pushing down the price of solar panels by almost half over the last year. Shi Zhengrong, the chief executive and founder of Chinas biggest solar panel manufacturer, Suntech Power Holdings, said in an interview here that Suntech, to build market share, is selling solar panels on the American market for less than the cost of the materials, assembly and shipping.

Backed by lavish government support, the Chinese are preparing to build plants to assemble their products in the United States to bypass protectionist legislation. As Japanese automakers did decades ago, Chinese solar companies are encouraging their United States executives to join industry trade groups to tamp down anti-Chinese sentiment before it takes root.


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## Oddball

Old Rocks said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dirty energy is last century's energy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the Russians and Chinese.  Putin went so far as to drop ALL green initiatives saying "Russia will not pursue ANY energy that is not carbon or nuclear based.  The chinese just built the Three Gorges Dam that has flooded hundreds of square miles of land and destroyed many dozen villages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/business/energy-environment/25solar.html?_r=1
> 
> WUXI, China  President Obama wants to make the United States the worlds leading exporter of renewable energy, but in his seven months in office, it is China that has stepped on the gas in an effort to become the dominant player in green energy  especially in solar power, and even in the United States.
Click to expand...

Uh-huh.

Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.

You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.


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## Old Rocks

China doubles wind power in a year - U.S. news - Environment - Green Machines - msnbc.com

BRUSSELS &#8212; China doubled the amount of energy generated from windmills last year, a report from the global wind industry said Wednesday. 

The Global Wind Energy Council, which represents companies that make and manage wind power stations, said the sector grew rapidly last year &#8212; with total wind capacity up 31 percent &#8212; despite the economic downturn.

The market for new wind turbines was worth $63 billion in 2009, it said.

China became the biggest market for new wind turbines last year, as it doubled power capacity from 12 gigawatts to 25 gigawatts. The world's biggest emitter of greenhouse gases is turning to renewables as well as coal as its growing economy calls for more power.

China is aiming to increase that sixfold &#8212; to 150 gigawatts &#8212; by 2020. The Chinese Renewable Energy Industries Association says it could hit that target far earlier. But wind power still accounts for only 1 percent of China's total electricity consumption.


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## Old Rocks

Big Fitz said:


> Dirty energy is last century's energy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the Russians and Chinese.  Putin went so far as to drop ALL green initiatives saying "Russia will not pursue ANY energy that is not carbon or nuclear based.  The chinese just built the Three Gorges Dam that has flooded hundreds of square miles of land and destroyed many dozen villages.
Click to expand...


Nitol: Russia's Emerging Solar Power Star - BusinessWeek

Dmitry Kotenko admits that when he and a group of friends decided to found their own business in 1998, they had no idea what exactly the new business would do. They knew only that they wanted their business to be New, Innovative, and Technological. Hence the name: Nitol. 

Ten years later, Nitol has not only a techie-sounding name but also a dynamic business to match. Now called Nitol Solar, the company is Russia's largest producer of polysilicon, the basic raw material used to make solar panels that turn sunlight into electricity. Nitol stands out as an all-too-rare commodity in Russia: a technologically savvy company that has grown in the space of a few years from tiny startup to billion-dollar success story. It's a model that Russia's leaders say they are eager to promote as the country casts around for new ways to achieve economic competitiveness in the 21st century. 

Lately, nothing seems to have captured the imagination of politicians more forcefully than alternative energy. In an interview with CNBC host and BusinessWeek columnist Maria Bartiromo on June 4, President Dmitry Medvedev emphasized the importance for Russia of "cutting-edge technologies," especially in "green economy, energy saving, and energy efficiency." It's a theme both he and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin increasingly have emphasized in recent months.


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## homeontherange

Dude said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the Russians and Chinese.  Putin went so far as to drop ALL green initiatives saying "Russia will not pursue ANY energy that is not carbon or nuclear based.  The chinese just built the Three Gorges Dam that has flooded hundreds of square miles of land and destroyed many dozen villages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WUXI, China  President Obama wants to make the United States the worlds leading exporter of renewable energy, but in his seven months in office, it is China that has stepped on the gas in an effort to become the dominant player in green energy  especially in solar power, and even in the United States.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Uh-huh.
> 
> Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.
> 
> You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.
Click to expand...


Is that why so many people drive Toyotas and Hondas?  Which employ a LOT of American workers?


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## Old Rocks

Dude said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the Russians and Chinese.  Putin went so far as to drop ALL green initiatives saying "Russia will not pursue ANY energy that is not carbon or nuclear based.  The chinese just built the Three Gorges Dam that has flooded hundreds of square miles of land and destroyed many dozen villages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/business/energy-environment/25solar.html?_r=1
> 
> WUXI, China  President Obama wants to make the United States the worlds leading exporter of renewable energy, but in his seven months in office, it is China that has stepped on the gas in an effort to become the dominant player in green energy  especially in solar power, and even in the United States.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Uh-huh.
> 
> Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.
> 
> You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.
Click to expand...


Still working at being stupid, I see. 25 Gw installed, and more being installed every day. China is already a major player in alternative energy, and will be a major force in this field.


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## homeontherange

Old Rocks said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> WUXI, China  President Obama wants to make the United States the worlds leading exporter of renewable energy, but in his seven months in office, it is China that has stepped on the gas in an effort to become the dominant player in green energy  especially in solar power, and even in the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh-huh.
> 
> Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.
> 
> You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Still working at being stupid, I see. 25 Gw installed, and more being installed every day. China is already a major player in alternative energy, and will be a major force in this field.
Click to expand...


Why don't the big energy companies use their subsidies to fund sustainable energy?  Why did they let themselves fall behind countries like China?


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## homeontherange

homeontherange said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh-huh.
> 
> Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.
> 
> You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still working at being stupid, I see. 25 Gw installed, and more being installed every day. China is already a major player in alternative energy, and will be a major force in this field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why don't the big energy companies use their subsidies to fund sustainable energy?  Why did they let themselves fall behind countries like China?
Click to expand...


Not that these energy companies are American, by any means.


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## homeontherange

I mean, BP is hardly American.  Neither is Royal Dutch Shell.  And so many more.


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## homeontherange

I see no one has any real answers here.  Why don't we focus our attention on the real problem, which is the Federal Reserve.


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## SFC Ollie

Old Rocks said:


> Wind is competative enough
> 
> Wind Energy Outlook for North America  Pike Research
> 
> In 2008, United States wind power generation capacity passed the 25 gigawatt mark by adding over 8 gigawatts from the year before, which represented the largest individual gain of any country in the world. This growth rate of 50% exceeded that of the year before, indicating that the market is still relatively young and has room to grow, despite the economic slowdown. The market for wind turbines will continue to grow through 2015 driven by new generation additions as well as replacements of smaller, older turbines with new, larger, more efficient turbines. In 2007, generation capacity from renewable sources made up only 4% of the worlds electricity sources, but 16% of new electricity generation capacity additions were from renewables with wind power making up more than 80% of these gains by renewables



Once again:



> For two years, the city of Durango, Colo., bought electricity for all its government buildings from wind farms. The City Council ended that program this year, reverting to electricity derived from coal-burning plants and saving the cash-strapped city about $45,000.


Going green can cost too much green - USATODAY.com


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## Big Fitz

homeontherange said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> WUXI, China  President Obama wants to make the United States the worlds leading exporter of renewable energy, but in his seven months in office, it is China that has stepped on the gas in an effort to become the dominant player in green energy  especially in solar power, and even in the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh-huh.
> 
> Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.
> 
> You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is that why so many people drive Toyotas and Hondas?  Which employ a LOT of American workers?
Click to expand...

Those are Japanese cars.


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## Big Fitz

homeontherange said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh-huh.
> 
> Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.
> 
> You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still working at being stupid, I see. 25 Gw installed, and more being installed every day. China is already a major player in alternative energy, and will be a major force in this field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why don't the big energy companies use their subsidies to fund sustainable energy?  Why did they let themselves fall behind countries like China?
Click to expand...

Because China has a state energy concern and can do lots of things private companies can't due to the fact they can use tax monies to suppliment their activities. 

And as for these great whopping subsidies we give oil companies.  we also tax them like crazy, charge them rent for drilling, and fees for operating and then of course, look for every chance possible to fine them and take more profit away from them.

The average profit margin in oil is less than 10%.  A Mutual fund is 80% an profit margin.  Even Bill Gates gets a paltry 25%.  But oil is essential for all modern life on this planet... the others not so much but they're hated far less.


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## topspin

wind and solar cost are coming down. Niether is close to being competetive. Saw a show last night where some snake oil solar panel salesman shiested some old lady out of 18k for solar panes. He tells her it'll displace 90% of her electricity when 30% is the reality.
 It takes most people decades to pay off with subsidies.
 I'm not agaisnt the green fundies, but I doubt the output for the tax payer money will be 1/10 what it would be for conventional energy sources.


----------



## Douger

Well. I built my own tower and installed the rig myself. I put out 600-800kwh per month +-.
The whole rig ran about $7000.


----------



## Old Rocks

Big Fitz said:


> homeontherange said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh-huh.
> 
> Cheap trinkets from China at Wal-Mart  are the death of the American worker, but goofy windmills from China are the savior of the planet.
> 
> You leftloons and your blatant double standards sure are a hoot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that why so many people drive Toyotas and Hondas?  Which employ a LOT of American workers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those are Japanese cars.
Click to expand...


Look at the individual parts on your Ford and GM. Note how many are made in other nations. In fact, I saw a post that claimed there was one Toyota model that had more American made parts than most GM and Ford models. Didn't check it out, but would not be surprised were that actually the case.


----------



## Old Rocks

You can build a 1 kw windmill for about $200. You can have a 5 kw solar system for $10,000. Of course, you have to do the installation work yourself. But given the claim of so many on this board to exceptional intellectual powers, that should not be a problem for them.


----------



## Old Rocks

Home Power Magazine: Solar | Wind | Water | Design | Build


----------



## manu1959

shassy said:


> Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.



plug it into an electric grid fed by oil.....


----------



## CurveLight

Vanda said:


> I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?



There is a single solar tower in Spain that powers 10,000 homes.  The use of fossil fuels has been long overrated because oil companies have been buying out and shutting down several alt-sources for everything from cars to homes.  Wake up.


----------



## topspin

CurveLight said:


> Vanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a single solar tower in Spain that powers 10,000 homes.  The use of fossil fuels has been long overrated because oil companies have been buying out and shutting down several alt-sources for everything from cars to homes.  Wake up.
Click to expand...


 thanks for the comedy


----------



## SFC Ollie

topspin said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a single solar tower in Spain that powers 10,000 homes.  The use of fossil fuels has been long overrated because oil companies have been buying out and shutting down several alt-sources for everything from cars to homes.  Wake up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> thanks for the comedy
Click to expand...


How many of those towers would we need to build in , oh , let's say NYC?


----------



## CurveLight

SFC Ollie said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a single solar tower in Spain that powers 10,000 homes.  The use of fossil fuels has been long overrated because oil companies have been buying out and shutting down several alt-sources for everything from cars to homes.  Wake up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for the comedy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of those towers would we need to build in , oh , let's say NYC?
Click to expand...


I have no idea how many it would take and right now that is a moot question.
  This is going to require you to step out of the tradition bipolar logic of black and white.  You don't need to convert everything at once.  If you can use the current green technology where it is usable that would reduce the overall consumption of fossil fuels.  What would that do?  Eventually reduce their prices.  The Petrodollar has been the rudder most overlooked and it is responsible for many issues from oil companies shutting down production on alt energy sources to the reason we are occupying iraq and afghanistan.


----------



## SFC Ollie

CurveLight said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> topspin said:
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for the comedy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many of those towers would we need to build in , oh , let's say NYC?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no idea how many it would take and right now that is a moot question.
> This is going to require you to step out of the tradition bipolar logic of black and white.  You don't need to convert everything at once.  If you can use the current green technology where it is usable that would reduce the overall consumption of fossil fuels.  What would that do?  Eventually reduce their prices.  The Petrodollar has been the rudder most overlooked and it is responsible for many issues from oil companies shutting down production on alt energy sources to the reason we are occupying iraq and afghanistan.
Click to expand...


Maybe you should actually read a thread before stepping into it. Also i didn't know there was any oil in Afghanistan, and here i thought that was actually about the attacks on 9-11, But then you think Bush did all that.


----------



## CurveLight

SFC Ollie said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many of those towers would we need to build in , oh , let's say NYC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how many it would take and right now that is a moot question.
> This is going to require you to step out of the tradition bipolar logic of black and white.  You don't need to convert everything at once.  If you can use the current green technology where it is usable that would reduce the overall consumption of fossil fuels.  What would that do?  Eventually reduce their prices.  The Petrodollar has been the rudder most overlooked and it is responsible for many issues from oil companies shutting down production on alt energy sources to the reason we are occupying iraq and afghanistan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should actually read a thread before stepping into it. Also i didn't know there was any oil in Afghanistan, and here i thought that was actually about the attacks on 9-11, But then you think Bush did all that.
Click to expand...



I've never said anything remotely close to saying bush did 9E so it looks like you know the subject matter is so far over your head you resort to being dishonest about what I've said in hopes of distraction.  There is oil in afghanistan but I didn't say that is why we are there.  Are you ever capable of reading one simple fucking post?


----------



## SFC Ollie

CurveLight said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how many it would take and right now that is a moot question.
> This is going to require you to step out of the tradition bipolar logic of black and white.  You don't need to convert everything at once.  If you can use the current green technology where it is usable that would reduce the overall consumption of fossil fuels.  What would that do?  Eventually reduce their prices.  The Petrodollar has been the rudder most overlooked and it is responsible for many issues from oil companies shutting down production on alt energy sources to the reason we are occupying iraq and afghanistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should actually read a thread before stepping into it. Also i didn't know there was any oil in Afghanistan, and here i thought that was actually about the attacks on 9-11, But then you think Bush did all that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I've never said anything remotely close to saying bush did 9E so it looks like you know the subject matter is so far over your head you resort to being dishonest about what I've said in hopes of distraction.  There is oil in afghanistan but I didn't say that is why we are there.  Are you ever capable of reading one simple fucking post?
Click to expand...


Can you make one post without "fuck the fucking fuckers"? No you never said Bush did it, you never actually did take a firm stand on 911 did you? You only argued the truthers side, you never really said anything, just as you simply hinted that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq for their oil. You didn't really say it and didn't actually mean it.
You are so sicking sometimes. Grow a pair and take a stand.


----------



## CurveLight

SFC Ollie said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many of those towers would we need to build in , oh , let's say NYC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how many it would take and right now that is a moot question.
> This is going to require you to step out of the tradition bipolar logic of black and white.  You don't need to convert everything at once.  If you can use the current green technology where it is usable that would reduce the overall consumption of fossil fuels.  What would that do?  Eventually reduce their prices.  The Petrodollar has been the rudder most overlooked and it is responsible for many issues from oil companies shutting down production on alt energy sources to the reason we are occupying iraq and afghanistan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe you should actually read a thread before stepping into it. Also i didn't know there was any oil in Afghanistan, and here i thought that was actually about the attacks on 9-11, But then you think Bush did all that.
Click to expand...




SFC Ollie said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should actually read a thread before stepping into it. Also i didn't know there was any oil in Afghanistan, and here i thought that was actually about the attacks on 9-11, But then you think Bush did all that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never said anything remotely close to saying bush did 9E so it looks like you know the subject matter is so far over your head you resort to being dishonest about what I've said in hopes of distraction.  There is oil in afghanistan but I didn't say that is why we are there.  Are you ever capable of reading one simple fucking post?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you make one post without "fuck the fucking fuckers"? No you never said Bush did it, you never actually did take a firm stand on 911 did you? You only argued the truthers side, you never really said anything, just as you simply hinted that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq for their oil. You didn't really say it and didn't actually mean it.
> You are so sicking sometimes. Grow a pair and take a stand.
Click to expand...


Okay, no.  You are not capable of reading a single fucking post and to distract you are outright dishonest.


----------



## Old Rocks

SFC Ollie said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should actually read a thread before stepping into it. Also i didn't know there was any oil in Afghanistan, and here i thought that was actually about the attacks on 9-11, But then you think Bush did all that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never said anything remotely close to saying bush did 9E so it looks like you know the subject matter is so far over your head you resort to being dishonest about what I've said in hopes of distraction.  There is oil in afghanistan but I didn't say that is why we are there.  Are you ever capable of reading one simple fucking post?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you make one post without "fuck the fucking fuckers"? No you never said Bush did it, you never actually did take a firm stand on 911 did you? You only argued the truthers side, you never really said anything, just as you simply hinted that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq for their oil. You didn't really say it and didn't actually mean it.
> You are so sicking sometimes. Grow a pair and take a stand.
Click to expand...


Well, we sure did not go into Iraq because of WMDs.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Old Rocks said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never said anything remotely close to saying bush did 9E so it looks like you know the subject matter is so far over your head you resort to being dishonest about what I've said in hopes of distraction.  There is oil in afghanistan but I didn't say that is why we are there.  Are you ever capable of reading one simple fucking post?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you make one post without "fuck the fucking fuckers"? No you never said Bush did it, you never actually did take a firm stand on 911 did you? You only argued the truthers side, you never really said anything, just as you simply hinted that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq for their oil. You didn't really say it and didn't actually mean it.
> You are so sicking sometimes. Grow a pair and take a stand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, we sure did not go into Iraq because of WMDs.
Click to expand...


Really? Where's the oil?


----------



## Old Rocks

China's got it.


----------



## SFC Ollie

So we went to war in Iraq so that China could get their oil? 

OK........

What ever you want to believe.


----------



## Old Rocks

No, that is not what we went to war about, but that is the result. Just another point of incompetance on the part of the Bush admin.


----------



## SFC Ollie

And here i thought the result was a shaky and unstable but so far surviving democracy in Iraq.


----------



## Old Rocks

Ollie, get serious. How are the Christians in Iraq doing? The Jews? How about women, how many are going to the universities now? 

Democracy? Who are you kidding? The democracy that Iraq is becoming more resembles Iran than the US or any European democracy.


----------



## Old Rocks

Guest Voices: 'Obliterating' Iraq's Christians - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

'Obliterating' Iraq's Christians
By Nina Shea
director, Hudson Institute's Center for Religious Freedom
What is most startling about the report of the heartless double bus bombings on May 2 that targeted and injured 80 Christian students traveling to northern Iraq's Mosul University was that the young Christians there attend university at all. Since the U.S. invasion, Iraq's Christians have been mostly driven out of the country by violence directed against them for their religion. Their communities are shattered. That these young people continued to dream of preparing themselves to serve their country signals that community's deep commitment to Iraq and a modicum of hope they still harbor for its future. 
Unless the Obama administration acts fast to develop policies to help them, though, their hope will likely be in vain. 
Relentless waves of bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, extortions and rapes have triggered a mass exodus of Christians from Iraq over the past seven years. Since 2003, over half of the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi Chaldean Catholics, Assyrian, Syriac Orthodox, and Armenian Christians, as well as some Protestants have fled to Syria, Jordan and farther flung places. While only 3 or 4 percent of Iraq's pre-2003 population, they account for 40 percent of its refugees, the UN reported.


----------



## Old Rocks

Women's Rights in Iraq: Decreasing by the Day | Women's Rights | Change.org

According to the simplistic rhetoric of Bush and company, the fall of Saddam Hussein and the arrival of the Americans was supposed to mark Iraq's "liberation" and ensure greater freedom for all citizens, particularly the niqab-clad women whom the West thrills in fetishizing as oppressed.

But it hasn't really turned out this way.

One major problem is that the stories of women's rights before foreign invasion are rarely, if ever, told, with politicians preferring to paint them as one-note, backwards and medieval precursors to the enlightenment brought by the arrival of foreign armies. This means that travesties caused by the occupation can be justified as improvements or necessary evils to avoid the horrors of what came before.

Malalai Joya, the Afghan activist who continues to fight for the end of the occupation of her country, has consistently pointed out that women were making progress in gaining rights until a series of foreign occupations ravaged Afghanistan. Similarly, Iraqi women enjoyed relatively progressive rights under a 1958 law which allowed them to divorce their husbands and inherit property, and they could study, work, and move about freely under Saddam.


----------



## Old Rocks

That is the kind of democracy we paid for with the lives of over 4000 Americans?


----------



## CurveLight

SFC Ollie said:


> And here i thought the result was a shaky and unstable but so far surviving democracy in Iraq.




How can you have a democracy when all legislation is based on a religion and no laws that contradict that religion may exist?  The worst part of ignorance from dumb fucks like you is you clearly have internet access but instead of using it to do something totally bizarre like educating yourself you choose to whine like a little girl.


----------



## CurveLight

SFC Ollie said:


> And here i thought the result was a shaky and unstable but so far surviving democracy in Iraq.





Old Rocks said:


> That is the kind of democracy we paid for with the lives of over 4000 Americans?



Saddam's life was not worth losing one American.  The other untold part of this tragedy is the number of permanently disabled who've lost legs, arms, part of their faces, etc.  But I'm prolly preaching to the choir.


----------



## topspin

we went to Iraq for oil. Period


----------



## SFC Ollie

"The establishment of democracy in Iraq will remain an uncertain proposition for some time to come. The most difficult matter is the reconciliation of two of Iraq's most important ethnic groups: Shiite and Sunni Muslims. But here there is also hope.

Sunnis who largely boycotted previous elections voted in force, and an intense competition for Shiite votes drove up participation in Baghdad and the south, election observers said.

After seven years of a war whose rationale is deeply disputed in the United States, the Obama administration viewed the vote as a test of Iraq's stability, a last milestone before the final withdrawal of American troops.

The short and fierce political campaign could end up either solidifying Iraq's nascent democracy or leaving the country fractured along ethnic and sectarian lines. But it was arguably the most open, most competitive election in the nation's long history of colonial rule, dictatorship and war. "
South Dakota Politics: Democracy in Iraq

The democracy in Iraq is far from perfect, but then we aren't so perfect either. Are there problems that we would never accept in America? Of course there are, but Iraq is free to choose their own destiny for the first time as a nation. There are religious problems and possibly gender related abuses that we would not accept, but Iraq is not America.

And Bentlight, fuck off.


----------



## CurveLight

SFC Ollie said:


> "The establishment of democracy in Iraq will remain an uncertain proposition for some time to come. The most difficult matter is the reconciliation of two of Iraq's most important ethnic groups: Shiite and Sunni Muslims. But here there is also hope.
> 
> Sunnis who largely boycotted previous elections voted in force, and an intense competition for Shiite votes drove up participation in Baghdad and the south, election observers said.
> 
> After seven years of a war whose rationale is deeply disputed in the United States, the Obama administration viewed the vote as a test of Iraq's stability, a last milestone before the final withdrawal of American troops.
> 
> The short and fierce political campaign could end up either solidifying Iraq's nascent democracy or leaving the country fractured along ethnic and sectarian lines. But it was arguably the most open, most competitive election in the nation's long history of colonial rule, dictatorship and war. "
> South Dakota Politics: Democracy in Iraq
> 
> The democracy in Iraq is far from perfect, but then we aren't so perfect either. Are there problems that we would never accept in America? Of course there are, but Iraq is free to choose their own destiny for the first time as a nation. There are religious problems and possibly gender related abuses that we would not accept, but Iraq is not America.
> 
> And Bentlight, fuck off.




Like a whiny little girl you ignored the question.  Once again:

How can you have a democracy when all legislationg is based on a religion and no law that contradicts that religion may be passed?


----------



## SFC Ollie

CurveLight said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The establishment of democracy in Iraq will remain an uncertain proposition for some time to come. The most difficult matter is the reconciliation of two of Iraq's most important ethnic groups: Shiite and Sunni Muslims. But here there is also hope.
> 
> Sunnis who largely boycotted previous elections voted in force, and an intense competition for Shiite votes drove up participation in Baghdad and the south, election observers said.
> 
> After seven years of a war whose rationale is deeply disputed in the United States, the Obama administration viewed the vote as a test of Iraq's stability, a last milestone before the final withdrawal of American troops.
> 
> The short and fierce political campaign could end up either solidifying Iraq's nascent democracy or leaving the country fractured along ethnic and sectarian lines. But it was arguably the most open, most competitive election in the nation's long history of colonial rule, dictatorship and war. "
> South Dakota Politics: Democracy in Iraq
> 
> The democracy in Iraq is far from perfect, but then we aren't so perfect either. Are there problems that we would never accept in America? Of course there are, but Iraq is free to choose their own destiny for the first time as a nation. There are religious problems and possibly gender related abuses that we would not accept, but Iraq is not America.
> 
> And Bentlight, fuck off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like a whiny little girl you ignored the question.  Once again:
> 
> How can you have a democracy when all legislationg is based on a religion and no law that contradicts that religion may be passed?
Click to expand...


I don't have a clue. But then I have not studied the intricacies of the new Iraqi constitution, have you? No one here is an expert on this, what we do know is that the average Iraqi for the most part has more freedoms than they ever have had in the past. You may deny that and point out your little exceptions all you want. But they do have a weak yet holding Democracy, voted on by the people. If we disagree with it that only proves that we didn't direct it and choose their government for them. But they did. So it isn't perfect, who is?


----------



## CurveLight

SFC Ollie said:


> "The establishment of democracy in Iraq will remain an uncertain proposition for some time to come. The most difficult matter is the reconciliation of two of Iraq's most important ethnic groups: Shiite and Sunni Muslims. But here there is also hope.
> 
> Sunnis who largely boycotted previous elections voted in force, and an intense competition for Shiite votes drove up participation in Baghdad and the south, election observers said.
> 
> After seven years of a war whose rationale is deeply disputed in the United States, the Obama administration viewed the vote as a test of Iraq's stability, a last milestone before the final withdrawal of American troops.
> 
> The short and fierce political campaign could end up either solidifying Iraq's nascent democracy or leaving the country fractured along ethnic and sectarian lines. But it was arguably the most open, most competitive election in the nation's long history of colonial rule, dictatorship and war. "
> South Dakota Politics: Democracy in Iraq
> 
> The democracy in Iraq is far from perfect, but then we aren't so perfect either. Are there problems that we would never accept in America? Of course there are, but Iraq is free to choose their own destiny for the first time as a nation. There are religious problems and possibly gender related abuses that we would not accept, but Iraq is not America.
> 
> And Bentlight, fuck off.





SFC Ollie said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The establishment of democracy in Iraq will remain an uncertain proposition for some time to come. The most difficult matter is the reconciliation of two of Iraq's most important ethnic groups: Shiite and Sunni Muslims. But here there is also hope.
> 
> Sunnis who largely boycotted previous elections voted in force, and an intense competition for Shiite votes drove up participation in Baghdad and the south, election observers said.
> 
> After seven years of a war whose rationale is deeply disputed in the United States, the Obama administration viewed the vote as a test of Iraq's stability, a last milestone before the final withdrawal of American troops.
> 
> The short and fierce political campaign could end up either solidifying Iraq's nascent democracy or leaving the country fractured along ethnic and sectarian lines. But it was arguably the most open, most competitive election in the nation's long history of colonial rule, dictatorship and war. "
> South Dakota Politics: Democracy in Iraq
> 
> The democracy in Iraq is far from perfect, but then we aren't so perfect either. Are there problems that we would never accept in America? Of course there are, but Iraq is free to choose their own destiny for the first time as a nation. There are religious problems and possibly gender related abuses that we would not accept, but Iraq is not America.
> 
> And Bentlight, fuck off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like a whiny little girl you ignored the question.  Once again:
> 
> How can you have a democracy when all legislationg is based on a religion and no law that contradicts that religion may be passed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have a clue. But then I have not studied the intricacies of the new Iraqi constitution, have you? No one here is an expert on this, what we do know is that the average Iraqi for the most part has more freedoms than they ever have had in the past. You may deny that and point out your little exceptions all you want. But they do have a weak yet holding Democracy, voted on by the people. If we disagree with it that only proves that we didn't direct it and choose their government for them. But they did. So it isn't perfect, who is?
Click to expand...


You don't have a clue yet wish to proclaim:

"...the average Iraqi for the most part has more freedoms than they ever have had in the past."

That shows how fucking ignorant you are on the matter and yes I've studied Iraq's Constitution.  You clearly support the war but you've never studied it.  Typical ignorant fucking Nationalist who waves the Flags and ignores the prices paid by tens of thousands of dead and wounded US soldiers.  You should be embarrassed and ashamed.


----------



## Old Rocks

*Back to the subject. 1000 new jobs in Colorado.*


Vestas Will Hire More Than 1,000 More Coloradans - cbs4denver.com

A company that makes giant wind turbines is getting ready to create more jobs in Colorado.

Vestas Wind Systems said Tuesday it will hire more than 1,000 people at three of its plants across the state.

"We continue to seek qualified people to fill a number of job openings for a variety of positions in our local factories," said Torben Poulsen, Vestas Brighton Factory Manager.

In Brighton the turbine manufacturer announced it will add 750 more jobs when Vestas begins to manufacture turbine blades at its new $100 miillion campus. Last week Vestas opened the Brighton plant with 280 new jobs making the generator and gearbox that sits atop the turbine tower.


----------



## jeffrockit

shassy said:


> Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.



Well more than likely oil or a coal fired plant will be providing the energy to re-charge the battery on your "green" vehicle.


----------



## CurveLight

jeffrockit said:


> shassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well more than likely oil or a coal fired plant will be providing the energy to re-charge the battery on your "green" vehicle.
Click to expand...


So?


----------



## Skull Pilot

Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.


----------



## CurveLight

Skull Pilot said:


> Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.



That's just idiotic.  I know of some CEOs that would disagree.


----------



## Skull Pilot

CurveLight said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just idiotic.  I know of some CEOs that would disagree.
Click to expand...


Look at the failure of wind energy in Spain and the Netherlands before you disagree.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/05/11/the-myth-of-the-danish-green-energy-miracle.aspx

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/05/11/the-myth-of-the-danish-green-energy-miracle.aspx

Energy Tribune- Overblown: The Real Cost of Wind Power

It's a waste of money.

The only way to make green energy work is to let the private sector make it work.

Huge and I do mean huge tax credits should be given to any and all people and businesses that invest in alternative heating and power tech.

Wanting the government to collect taxes only to subsidize companies they deem worthy is the wrong answer.


----------



## Big Fitz

topspin said:


> we went to Iraq for oil. Period


Then why aren't we getting it?  Why are gas prices still too high?  Why aren't we hearing about increases of oil coming in from Iraq to the US?

Oh that's right... because that's just not true.


----------



## Old Rocks

Skull Pilot said:


> Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.



I see. The Corps of Discovery was such a failure, right?

The grant for the investigation of the properties of obscure materials called semi-conductors in 1948 was another failure, correct?

The money we spent on the ocean exploration that map the magnitism of of the Juan de Fuca rift zone was another failure, correct?

Skull, why do you insist on repeating that very stupid Conservative Mantra that has been proven to be false? The Interstate Highway System.


----------



## Old Rocks

Big Fitz said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> 
> we went to Iraq for oil. Period
> 
> 
> 
> Then why aren't we getting it?  Why are gas prices still too high?  Why aren't we hearing about increases of oil coming in from Iraq to the US?
> 
> Oh that's right... because that's just not true.
Click to expand...


Because there is more money for the oil corperations in selling that oil to China.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Old Rocks said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see. The Corps of Discovery was such a failure, right?
> 
> The grant for the investigation of the properties of obscure materials called semi-conductors in 1948 was another failure, correct?
> 
> The money we spent on the ocean exploration that map the magnitism of of the Juan de Fuca rift zone was another failure, correct?
> 
> Skull, why do you insist on repeating that very stupid Conservative Mantra that has been proven to be false? The Interstate Highway System.
Click to expand...


Do you really call the waste graft and corruption that defines the highway system a success?

If the government takes over energy, it will be rife with political payoffs and out of control spending.  The government will decide which companies succeed and fail based not on quality or competitiveness but on who is sucking a politician's dick.

The idiots in government don't care what something costs because they don't care if they make a profit.  After all as far as the fucking government is concerned we are all nothing but walking ATMs.


----------



## jeffrockit

CurveLight said:


> jeffrockit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vanda since you seem to be in love with oil.... go take a swim in the gulf maybe that will change your opinion1  I would at least LIKE to have the choice to plug in my vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well more than likely oil or a coal fired plant will be providing the energy to re-charge the battery on your "green" vehicle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So?
Click to expand...


The point is, if we are debating the merits of reducing our dependency on oil and reduce coal fired plants, an electric car that will have a rechargeable battery, that will be recharged with energy from either of those sources, seem to nullify the goals of reducing anything. 

Rather than try to social engineer our country or do something for political reasons, we should be smart about reducing our dependency and not just go around in circles.


----------



## CurveLight

jeffrockit said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeffrockit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well more than likely oil or a coal fired plant will be providing the energy to re-charge the battery on your "green" vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point is, if we are debating the merits of reducing our dependency on oil and reduce coal fired plants, an electric car that will have a rechargeable battery, that will be recharged with energy from either of those sources, seem to nullify the goals of reducing anything.
> 
> Rather than try to social engineer our country or do something for political reasons, we should be smart about reducing our dependency and not just go around in circles.
Click to expand...


Do you know how much oil/coal/electricity is required to charge lithium ion batteries for cars?


----------



## CurveLight

Big Fitz said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> 
> we went to Iraq for oil. Period
> 
> 
> 
> Then why aren't we getting it?  Why are gas prices still too high?  Why aren't we hearing about increases of oil coming in from Iraq to the US?
> 
> Oh that's right... because that's just not true.
Click to expand...


You're a fucking dickidiot.  When it is said the reason is oil it does not literally mean we invaded to smuggle the oil back to the States in the cargo pockets of our Soldiers.  You're probably the kind of dumbass that references a January snowstorm in Minnesota as evidence global warming is a myth.


----------



## JiggsCasey

Vanda said:


> I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?



Peak oil a given => drill more, rely on dirtier hydrocarbons, ignore renewables: ... 
systemic economic disaster, heavy die-off
​Peak oil a given => enact a Marshall Plan for renewables and localization: ... 
systemic economic disaster, mitigated dieoff, a decent measure of sustainability.​
You choose.


----------



## Big Fitz

JiggsCasey said:


> Vanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peak oil a given => drill more, rely on dirtier hydrocarbons, ignore renewables: ...
> systemic economic disaster, heavy die-off
> ​Peak oil a given => enact a Marshall Plan for renewables and localization: ...
> systemic economic disaster, mitigated dieoff, a decent measure of sustainability.​
> You choose.
Click to expand...

Ahhh the JiggsCasey brand libberish generator is operational for the weekend again.

Too bad peak oil is still a political lie for power.  In 200-300 years maybe oil will get difficult to find... or something else will be cheaper to use.  Till then, the only thing stopping us from developing oil fields are assholes like P-BO.

BBC News - Venezuela oil 'may double Saudi Arabia'
Brazil Oil Finds May End Reliance on Middle East, Zeihan Says - Bloomberg

Looks like South America very well may change the petropolitical fortunes of the world and end the Mid East's dominance and lessen their power.  Of course a large chunk of it is still under the control of progressofascists... but what else is new?


----------



## JiggsCasey

Big Fitz said:


> Ahhh the JiggsCasey brand libberish generator is operational for the weekend again.
> 
> Too bad peak oil is still a political lie for power.  In 200-300 years maybe oil will get difficult to find... or something else will be cheaper to use.  Till then, the only thing stopping us from developing oil fields are assholes like P-BO.
> 
> BBC News - Venezuela oil 'may double Saudi Arabia'
> Brazil Oil Finds May End Reliance on Middle East, Zeihan Says - Bloomberg
> 
> Looks like South America very well may change the petropolitical fortunes of the world and end the Mid East's dominance and lessen their power.  Of course a large chunk of it is still under the control of progressofascists... but what else is new?



Dear unrivaled moron... Venezuela's reserves are tar sands, not light crude. Brazil's total from your link amounts to 41 billion barrels of "technically recoverable" oil, and would never end reliance on Middle East oil.

From your own link:

Brazil's state-controlled Petroleo Brasileiro SA in November said the offshore Tupi field may hold *8 billion barrels* of recoverable crude. Among discoveries in the past 30 years, only the 15-billion-barrel Kashagan field in Kazakhstan is larger.

Haroldo Lima, director of the country's oil agency, last week said another subsea field, Carioca, may have *33 billion barrels of oil*. That would be the third biggest field in history, behind only the Ghawar field in Saudi Arabia and Burgan in Kuwait.​
Nevermind that both entries state "may contain", and are technically recoverable estimates.....   The world consumes 85 million barrels per DAY. Even if we're just talking about U.S. consumption of 21 mpd, how on Earth would 41 billion barrels get us off Middle Eastern dependence? Do even have any understanding of basic arithmetic? 

You perpetually don't know what you're talking about. Lazily linking to short-sighted stories that tell half the condition isn't doing much of anything for your ignorant, hope-based belief system.

If it's a "lie", tell the forum where the light crude is? Big Oil would love to hear from you, genius.


----------



## Bfgrn

SFC Ollie said:


> Yes green energy can and I believe it eventually will work.
> 
> However, it must work because science has the breakthroughs needed and it must work without Government funding or subsidies.
> 
> Until science and not government can make green energy viable, then it is nothing but a dream.



Oil corporations get about 4.5 billion dollars per year in government subsidies. Your beloved Exxon Mobil pays a whopping $0,000,000.00 taxes... the BIGGEST socialism in America is corporate welfare, subsidies and cost externalization, where corporations externalize costs to U.S. taxpayers totaling about $4-$5 trillion per year in workplace injuries, medical care required by the failure of unsafe products, health costs from pollution, and many others.


----------



## jeffrockit

CurveLight said:


> jeffrockit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is, if we are debating the merits of reducing our dependency on oil and reduce coal fired plants, an electric car that will have a rechargeable battery, that will be recharged with energy from either of those sources, seem to nullify the goals of reducing anything.
> 
> Rather than try to social engineer our country or do something for political reasons, we should be smart about reducing our dependency and not just go around in circles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you know how much oil/coal/electricity is required to charge lithium ion batteries for cars?
Click to expand...


I do not. Perhaps you will share that info?


----------



## Big Fitz

yes, we can only use light crude.  Moron.  Peak oil is a political fantasy.  Technology improves retrieval and recovery efforts all the time, making more and more sources viable.  Yet you remain doggedly attached to only ONE type of oil.  Talk about dishonest.  You like to play "hard" numbers when it suits the negative in the form of usage and demands and then play "soft" numbers of supply and prevaricate and de-emphasize numbers on the estimates.  All in an effort to fudge the perception and make things make look worse than they are.

Whatever.  You're not an honest vendor here and are just selling bunk to suckers.


----------



## Charles_Main

Vanda said:


> I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?


 Plug a car into a socket and what you have is a car power by Mostly COAL fired power plants. Not exactly an ideal environmental solution IMO. 

That said, Of course green solutions can work. The problem comes with people who want to leap off a cliff to them when we are not ready and send out economy into the shitter in the process.


----------



## MikeK

The key to making green energy work is conscientious control of wasteful energy use.


----------



## KissMy

My wind & solar equipment was made in China. I am ok with it & I paid for it all myself with no tax credit of government subsidy. I installed it myself so now the whole system is going to pay for itself in 2 to 3 years. If china makes a decent (PHEV) Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle for a cheap price I will buy that to. Then we as a nation can import less energy from foreigners. Life without oil will be a lot different & maybe a bit more difficult but it will be more free.


----------



## Old Rocks

Skull Pilot said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see. The Corps of Discovery was such a failure, right?
> 
> The grant for the investigation of the properties of obscure materials called semi-conductors in 1948 was another failure, correct?
> 
> The money we spent on the ocean exploration that map the magnitism of of the Juan de Fuca rift zone was another failure, correct?
> 
> Skull, why do you insist on repeating that very stupid Conservative Mantra that has been proven to be false? The Interstate Highway System.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you really call the waste graft and corruption that defines the highway system a success?
> 
> If the government takes over energy, it will be rife with political payoffs and out of control spending.  The government will decide which companies succeed and fail based not on quality or competitiveness but on who is sucking a politician's dick.
> 
> The idiots in government don't care what something costs because they don't care if they make a profit.  After all as far as the fucking government is concerned we are all nothing but walking ATMs.
Click to expand...


Good lord, Skull. Whatever graft there was building the Interstate System pales beside that when we threw the railroads across the continent. But, in spite of the graft and corruption, the nation benefited greatly from that project.


----------



## Old Rocks

Big Fitz said:


> yes, we can only use light crude.  Moron.  Peak oil is a political fantasy.  Technology improves retrieval and recovery efforts all the time, making more and more sources viable.  Yet you remain doggedly attached to only ONE type of oil.  Talk about dishonest.  You like to play "hard" numbers when it suits the negative in the form of usage and demands and then play "soft" numbers of supply and prevaricate and de-emphasize numbers on the estimates.  All in an effort to fudge the perception and make things make look worse than they are.
> 
> Whatever.  You're not an honest vendor here and are just selling bunk to suckers.



My, my, Fritz, old boy, you seem to know a lot of things that are not true. 

The Hubbert Peak was the work of Dr. Hubbert. In 1948 he predicted the peak oil for the US based on known fields and rate of discovery. His prediction was correct to the year, 1970. And his curve for the downward slide of production has been dead on.


----------



## Old Rocks

Charles_Main said:


> Vanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been reading some of the posts on other threads and I still dont see anyone who can support the Green position with facts.  We need to drill for oil.  Do you really think we are going to cut down energy use in this country?  or plug in a car every night?
> 
> 
> 
> Plug a car into a socket and what you have is a car power by Mostly COAL fired power plants. Not exactly an ideal environmental solution IMO.
> 
> That said, Of course green solutions can work. The problem comes with people who want to leap off a cliff to them when we are not ready and send out economy into the shitter in the process.
Click to expand...


Once again, even if you use coal generated electricity, you will have less of a CO2 footprint because of the inherent inefficiency of the ICE. However, the prices of the solar panels are coming down rapidly enough that by the time there are some good plug in hybrids, or full EVs on the market, the payback powering your home and fueling your vehicle may be down to 3 to 5 years.


----------



## Old Rocks

KissMy said:


> My wind & solar equipment was made in China. I am ok with it & I paid for it all myself with no tax credit of government subsidy. I installed it myself so now the whole system is going to pay for itself in 2 to 3 years. If china makes a decent (PHEV) Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle for a cheap price I will buy that to. Then we as a nation can import less energy from foreigners. Life without oil will be a lot different & maybe a bit more difficult but it will be more free.



Soon, you will be able to buy Chinese panels assembled, and, down the road, manufactured here in Oregon.

"Grape Solar takes wraps off expansion plans in Eugene" &mdash; Solar Oregon

By Richard Read, The Oregonian 
>>click here for original article

Grape Solar doesn't grow silicon crystals or make solar cells at its Eugene headquarters. Essentially, it just imports low-cost solar panels from China and re-sells them here. 

But on Wednesday, Grape made it clear it would like to ripen into a manufacturer with the capacity to employ as many as 200 workers in economically depressed Lane County. The company signed a lease for 53,000 square feet of factory space in Eugene, with an eye toward a $10 million plant with the capacity to churn out 100 megawatts of solar panels annually. 

Grape President Ocean Yuan said the company's sales have rocketed from zero to $20 million in the past nine months, and he's waiting to see more orders come through. But he'd eventually like to build three North American assembly plants -- in Oregon, New Jersey and Ontario -- to be closer to customers. Fully assembled solar panels are bulky and can be expensive to ship from overseas


----------



## Skull Pilot

Old Rocks said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see. The Corps of Discovery was such a failure, right?
> 
> The grant for the investigation of the properties of obscure materials called semi-conductors in 1948 was another failure, correct?
> 
> The money we spent on the ocean exploration that map the magnitism of of the Juan de Fuca rift zone was another failure, correct?
> 
> Skull, why do you insist on repeating that very stupid Conservative Mantra that has been proven to be false? The Interstate Highway System.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really call the waste graft and corruption that defines the highway system a success?
> 
> If the government takes over energy, it will be rife with political payoffs and out of control spending.  The government will decide which companies succeed and fail based not on quality or competitiveness but on who is sucking a politician's dick.
> 
> The idiots in government don't care what something costs because they don't care if they make a profit.  After all as far as the fucking government is concerned we are all nothing but walking ATMs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good lord, Skull. Whatever graft there was building the Interstate System pales beside that when we threw the railroads across the continent. But, in spite of the graft and corruption, the nation benefited greatly from that project.
Click to expand...


The waste and corruption is justified then?

Tell me that when the only way to make wind work is ever increasing tax subsidies to the one or two companies that happened to have a fucking politician in their pocket when the law was signed.  If you want reliable, cost efficient alternative energy, then get the fucking government out of it.


----------



## Old Rocks

Skull Pilot said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really call the waste graft and corruption that defines the highway system a success?
> 
> If the government takes over energy, it will be rife with political payoffs and out of control spending.  The government will decide which companies succeed and fail based not on quality or competitiveness but on who is sucking a politician's dick.
> 
> The idiots in government don't care what something costs because they don't care if they make a profit.  After all as far as the fucking government is concerned we are all nothing but walking ATMs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord, Skull. Whatever graft there was building the Interstate System pales beside that when we threw the railroads across the continent. But, in spite of the graft and corruption, the nation benefited greatly from that project.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The waste and corruption is justified then?
> 
> Tell me that when the only way to make wind work is ever increasing tax subsidies to the one or two companies that happened to have a fucking politician in their pocket when the law was signed.  If you want reliable, cost efficient alternative energy, then get the fucking government out of it.
Click to expand...


No, the waste and corruption was not justified. But, whenever a paradigm change is occuring, you are still dealing with people. Insisting that a project be completely free of corruption or waste is impossible as we are dealling with humans, not paragons of virtue.

As far as the wind working, it already is.

EIA - Electricity Data, Analysis, Surveys

Net generation from renewable energy sources, excluding conventional hydroelectric generation, increased 19.9 percent in 2008, following an increase of 9.0 percent in 2007 (Table 2.1a). A large part of this growth was due to increased wind generation, which totaled 55.4 million MWh, or 1.3 percent of total net generation. For the first time, wind generation constituted a larger share than biomass, and also a larger share than petroleum. The top 5 wind-generating States were Texas, California, Minnesota, Iowa, and Washington. Texas, where wind generation was up 80.2 percent in 2008, was by far the largest source of wind generation with more than three times that of California, the Nations second-largest provider. Nationally, wind generation increased 60.7 percent from its 2007 level. 72.6 percent of the national increase was accounted for by increases in Texas, Colorado, Minnesota, Illinois, Oregon, and Iowa. Wood and wood-derived fuels, representing 0.9 percent of total net generation, accounted for 37 million MWh, down 4.4 percent from 2007. Geothermal power plants supplied 15 million MWh of net generation and other biomass plants generated 18 million MWh; each of these renewable sources accounted for approximately 0.4 percent of total net generation in 2008. Generation from solar thermal and photovoltaic sources was up 41.2 percent from 2007, at 864 thousand MWh. Wood and wood derived fuels and geothermal have maintained fairly stable output levels since 1997, averaging 38 million MWh and 15 million MWh per year, respectively. Other biomass generation has declined from a 23 million MWh peak in 2000 to 18 million MWh in 2008.

*When you are having increases of 40% to 60% capacity in the major alternative energy methods, it is really hard to state that they are not successful.*


----------



## Skull Pilot

Old Rocks said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord, Skull. Whatever graft there was building the Interstate System pales beside that when we threw the railroads across the continent. But, in spite of the graft and corruption, the nation benefited greatly from that project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The waste and corruption is justified then?
> 
> Tell me that when the only way to make wind work is ever increasing tax subsidies to the one or two companies that happened to have a fucking politician in their pocket when the law was signed.  If you want reliable, cost efficient alternative energy, then get the fucking government out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the waste and corruption was not justified. But, whenever a paradigm change is occuring, you are still dealing with people. Insisting that a project be completely free of corruption or waste is impossible as we are dealling with humans, not paragons of virtue.
> 
> As far as the wind working, it already is.
> 
> EIA - Electricity Data, Analysis, Surveys
> 
> Net generation from renewable energy sources, excluding conventional hydroelectric generation, increased 19.9 percent in 2008, following an increase of 9.0 percent in 2007 (Table 2.1a). A large part of this growth was due to increased wind generation, which totaled 55.4 million MWh, or 1.3 percent of total net generation. For the first time, wind generation constituted a larger share than biomass, and also a larger share than petroleum. The top 5 wind-generating States were Texas, California, Minnesota, Iowa, and Washington. Texas, where wind generation was up 80.2 percent in 2008, was by far the largest source of wind generation with more than three times that of California, the Nations second-largest provider. Nationally, wind generation increased 60.7 percent from its 2007 level. 72.6 percent of the national increase was accounted for by increases in Texas, Colorado, Minnesota, Illinois, Oregon, and Iowa. Wood and wood-derived fuels, representing 0.9 percent of total net generation, accounted for 37 million MWh, down 4.4 percent from 2007. Geothermal power plants supplied 15 million MWh of net generation and other biomass plants generated 18 million MWh; each of these renewable sources accounted for approximately 0.4 percent of total net generation in 2008. Generation from solar thermal and photovoltaic sources was up 41.2 percent from 2007, at 864 thousand MWh. Wood and wood derived fuels and geothermal have maintained fairly stable output levels since 1997, averaging 38 million MWh and 15 million MWh per year, respectively. Other biomass generation has declined from a 23 million MWh peak in 2000 to 18 million MWh in 2008.
> 
> *When you are having increases of 40% to 60% capacity in the major alternative energy methods, it is really hard to state that they are not successful.*
Click to expand...


Wind on average supplies only 30% of rated capacity.  So if X gigawatts of rated capacity windmills are built the actual output is .33X GW.  Factor that into the cost and you'll realize that wind is not such a good deal.  Then factor in the government subsidies and it looks even worse.

Energy Tribune- Wind Power Exposed: The Renewable Energy Source is Expensive, Unreliable and Won?t Save Natural Gas.



> Independent reports have consistently revealed an industry plagued by high construction and maintenance costs, highly volatile reliability and a voracious appetite for taxpayer subsidies. Such is the economic strain on taxpayer funds being poured into wind power by Europe's early pioneers -- Denmark, Germany and Spain  that all have recently been forced to scale back their investments.


----------



## KissMy

China is world's number one energy user.


> The Financial Times and the Wall Street Journal cited a top IEA official as saying the Asian giant had taken over the top spot in 2009, earlier than expected.
> 
> According to the IEA, China consumed 2.252 billion tons of oil equivalent of energy in 2009, from sources that included coal, nuclear power, natural gas and hydroelectric power -- about four percent more than the United States.
> 
> But an official with China's National Energy Administration told reporters the report was flawed.
> 
> "The IEA's data on China's energy use is unreliable," the official, Zhou Xian, was quoted by Xinhua news agency as saying.
> 
> The Financial Times quoted IEA chief economist Fatih Birol as saying: "In the year 2000, the US consumed twice as much energy as China; now, China consumes more than the US."
> 
> The United States still uses far more energy than China on a per capita basis, but China is less energy-efficient, the report said.
> 
> The IEA, the energy strategy branch of the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, said the data was still preliminary but that the trend was clear, the newspaper reported.
> 
> China has embarked in recent years on an aggressive campaign to secure overseas energy supplies and satisfy sky-rocketing demand fuelled by its fast-expanding economy and citizens' increasing consumerism.
> 
> Late last year, Beijing announced ahead of the Copenhagen climate change summit that it would embark on a major energy efficiency drive to curb growth in its world-leading greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> It has set a goal of generating 15 percent of its energy from renewable sources -- mainly wind and water -- by 2020.
> 
> The IEA's Birol told the Financial Times that while the United States had improved its energy efficiency by 2.5 percent annually over the past decade, China had only notched up a 1.7 percent annual improvement.
> 
> China still depends on coal for about 70 percent of its energy needs. It has surpassed Japan as the world's largest coal importer, despite its own vast coal resources.


----------



## editec

Skull Pilot said:


> Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.


 

Worked out damned well for the Petroleum indistry, didn't it?

No industry I can think of gets more subsidies than they do.


----------



## topspin

the oil industry is the best economic engine this country has ever seen. I hope alternatives prove better. So far after several decades they still are exponentially less efficient.


----------



## Skull Pilot

editec said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Government subsidized green energy will fail as all government subsidized programs do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worked out damned well for the Petroleum indistry, didn't it?
> 
> No industry I can think of gets more subsidies than they do.
Click to expand...


and when have i ever been in favor of oil subsidies?

Oil is profitable without subsidies.  Wind isn't


----------



## KissMy

Solarfun Obtained RMB6 Billion Credit Facility With Bank of Shanghai


> SHANGHAI, July 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Solarfun Power Holdings Co., Ltd. ("Solarfun" or "the Company") (Nasdaq: SOLF), a vertically integrated manufacturer of silicon ingots and photovoltaic ("PV") cells and modules in China, today announced that Jiangsu Linyang Solarfun Co., Ltd., a wholly owned subsidiary of Solarfun, has obtained a credit facility in the amount not exceeding RMB6 billion, or an equivalent amount of foreign currency, from Bank of Shanghai, Nanjing branch (the "Bank"). The contract has a term of 5 years. Specific drawdowns against this facility are subject to internal review and approval by the Bank.
> 
> Gareth Kung, Chief Financial Officer of Solarfun, commented, "We are pleased to expand our partnership with Bank of Shanghai and view this new credit facility as an important component of our long term financial plan. It provides us with the capital resources and flexibility to continue to grow our business aggressively in the future, including capacity expansions, investments in technology, branding and project financing."


----------



## topspin

it's comical thinking alt's can be remotely competetive anytime soon.
 If you look deep you can see a decade ago oil below $20 bbl and hundreds of thousands of lawyoffs in the industry. Granted this was before the libtard demonization so as long as folks had cheap gas they could care less about the oil industry.

 Republicans have not defended oil industry nearly enough.


----------



## KissMy

Why China Has To Dominate Green Tech


> China just passed a new milestone: it consumes more energy than the United States, which had been the world leader ever since energy consumption started to be measured. Twenty years ago, such a milestone would have been marked with unabashed pride, but in today's energy-conscious world, it is not a good threshold. *From now on, when it comes to global warming, pollution and related issues, China will no longer be able to hide behind its claims of being a developing nation.*
> 
> On the policy level, the Chinese government has to perform a delicate balancing act, it has to balance the desire of many Chinese to live a Western lifestyle, together with its high energy consumption and waste, with the need to preserve the environment, since China, and the world, would suffer enormous damage if 1.3 billion people got all their energy needs from coal and oil, the two most widely used fossil fuels. China's political and social stability depends on finding the right balance, since the party has an implicit mandate: it will deliver economic growth to the Chinese people.
> 
> This is why the Chinese government has chosen to invest in developing new green energy technology.
> 
> The country is very fortunate in that most of the discovered deposits of rare earths used in the development of new technologies are found in China. While these deposits are very valuable, up until recently, the industry has not been regulated much by the Chinese central government. But now that Beijing is aware of their importance and value, it has come under much closer scrutiny. For one, Beijing wants to consolidate the industry and lower energy waste and environmental damage. (Ironically, the rare earth mining business is one of the most energy-wasteful and highly polluting industries around. Think Chinese coal mining with acid.)
> 
> At the same time, Beijing wants to cut back rare earth exports to the rest of the world, instead encouraging domestic production into wind and solar products for export around the world. With patents on the new technology used in manufacturing, China would control the intellectual property and licensing on the products that would be used all over the world. If Beijing is able to do this, it would control the next generation of energy products used by the world for the next century.


----------



## KissMy

The Oil Drum: Europe the 3-part view of power generation


----------



## KissMy

EPA is proposing to regulate coal ash for the first time. Your electric bill will rise if this happens.


----------



## Old Rocks

But maybe we won't see another river destroyed.


----------



## Pappadave

Green energy will only work when it sits on the roof of my house, has a reasonable price per kw, and lets me disconnect from the grid. It will be a long time coming since there would be no monthly billing, nothing for the government to tax (although I am sure they will try), and we need to develop much better storage capabilities. Green energy will work when its saves us "green". Pappadave.


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## konradv

Pappadave said:


> Green energy will only work when it sits on the roof of my house, has a reasonable price per kw, and lets me disconnect from the grid. It will be a long time coming since there would be no monthly billing, nothing for the government to tax (although I am sure they will try), and we need to develop much better storage capabilities. Green energy will work when its saves us "green". Pappadave.



All those things are already happening.  Where have you been, Rip?!?!


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## SFC Ollie

konradv said:


> Pappadave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Green energy will only work when it sits on the roof of my house, has a reasonable price per kw, and lets me disconnect from the grid. It will be a long time coming since there would be no monthly billing, nothing for the government to tax (although I am sure they will try), and we need to develop much better storage capabilities. Green energy will work when its saves us "green". Pappadave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All those things are already happening.  Where have you been, Rip?!?!
Click to expand...


Only with Government subsidies.


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## konradv

SFC Ollie said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pappadave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Green energy will only work when it sits on the roof of my house, has a reasonable price per kw, and lets me disconnect from the grid. It will be a long time coming since there would be no monthly billing, nothing for the government to tax (although I am sure they will try), and we need to develop much better storage capabilities. Green energy will work when its saves us "green". Pappadave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All those things are already happening.  Where have you been, Rip?!?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only with Government subsidies.
Click to expand...


I've seen people who've done it on their own.  You can actually hook up to the grid and SELL your extra energy.  If that doesn't knock down some of the cost, I don't know what will.


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## JiggsCasey

konradv said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> All those things are already happening.  Where have you been, Rip?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only with Government subsidies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've seen people who've done it on their own.  You can actually hook up to the grid and SELL your extra energy.  If that doesn't knock down some of the cost, I don't know what will.
Click to expand...


This is correct... They're called feed-in tarrifs.

As to the poster above you, don't the fossil fuel industries get the biggest government subsidies?


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## SFC Ollie

JiggsCasey said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only with Government subsidies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen people who've done it on their own.  You can actually hook up to the grid and SELL your extra energy.  If that doesn't knock down some of the cost, I don't know what will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is correct... They're called feed-in tarrifs.
> 
> As to the poster above you, don't the fossil fuel industries get the biggest government subsidies?
Click to expand...


Yes they did, and still do (sort of) and that is another subject and why I prefer the next generation of energy be Government free.


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## Pappadave

I support green energy. I just want it to stand on its on merits. One of the reasons for getting off the grid is its massive vulnerability. One small overload at Niagara Falls caused a blackout all over the northeast states. A similar failure in the Midwest (I think Ohio) did the same thing. A large EMP would shutdown virtually the entire system. If all of our homes were independently powered, at least some would still function. Pay-back tariffs are too low. When the utility pays us what they claim it costs them to produce power, You could justify the higher capital costs for a larger home system. Pappadave.


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## LuvtheStars

When i went to Oregon a few weeks ago, i was amazed at how many people care about the environment and recycle. Here in Las Vegas everyone waste ALOT of stuff..from all the food at the buffets every night to almost no one recycling bottles and plastic. I wish more people cared about this issue, its kinda a BIG deal...


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## Old Rocks

SFC Ollie said:


> JiggsCasey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen people who've done it on their own.  You can actually hook up to the grid and SELL your extra energy.  If that doesn't knock down some of the cost, I don't know what will.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is correct... They're called feed-in tarrifs.
> 
> As to the poster above you, don't the fossil fuel industries get the biggest government subsidies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes they did, and still do (sort of) and that is another subject and why I prefer the next generation of energy be Government free.
Click to expand...


In other words, handicap it until the corperations figure out a way to outlaw it.


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## Old Rocks

SFC Ollie said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pappadave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Green energy will only work when it sits on the roof of my house, has a reasonable price per kw, and lets me disconnect from the grid. It will be a long time coming since there would be no monthly billing, nothing for the government to tax (although I am sure they will try), and we need to develop much better storage capabilities. Green energy will work when its saves us "green". Pappadave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All those things are already happening.  Where have you been, Rip?!?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only with Government subsidies.
Click to expand...


Ollie, the world has been moving on while you have been asleep.

Solar Panels - Sunelec : Solar Panels 97¢/W, PV Systems $2.40/W

 GET OUR EXCELLENT PRICES BY THE MODULE 


SUN Solar Laminates



Laminates are modules that are ready to be framed (if desired) and have junction boxes (J-Boxes) added (pretty much required). Laminates do not need to be framed in order to be used. Keep in mind, however, they are for off-grid applications. Their lifetime is excellent and their power output is the same. They also include a 20 year warranty. Be careful as they are more susceptible damage due to the edges being unprotected. The modules we sell without J-Boxes, both framed and laminates, require you to design and attach your own waterproof J-Box. You can get parts from an electrical supplier or just Google it on the web. There are dozens of suppliers and they are cheap.


Model Number Specifications Price Price Per Watt Qty 
01SUN-40 33 x 26 40 Watt, 2.20 Imp, 18.00 Vmp $ 38.80 $ 0.97 14 
07SUN-60 31 3/4" x 63 1/2" 60 Watt, 5.45 Imp, 10.96 Vmp $ 58.20 $ 0.97 22 
09SUN-35 27 5/8" x 20 1/2" 35 Watt, 1.98 Imp, 15.30 Vmp $ 33.95 $ 0.97 52 
12SUN-50 30 1/2" x 25 7/8" 50 Watt, 2.64 Imp, 15.30 Vmp $ 48.50 $ 0.97 1 
16SUN-80 58" x 26" 80 Watt, 3.96 Imp, 16.20 Vmp $ 77.60 $ 0.97 22 
17SUN-110 581/8" x 38 1/4" 110 Watt, 5.62 Imp, 16.20 Vmp $ 106.70 $ 0.97 33 
05SUN-55 62" x 31" 55 Watt, 3.90 Imp, 11.70 Vmp $ 53.35 $ 0.97 13 
10SUN-50 38 7/8" x 25 3/4" 50 Watt, 2.70 Imp, 15.30 Vmp $ 48.50 $ 0.97 45 
10SUN-45 33 3/4" x 25 3/4" 45 Watt, 2.48 Imp, 15.30 Vmp $ 43.65 $ 0.97 2 
12SUN-40 33 1/2" x 25 3/4" 40 Watt, 2.25 Imp, 15.30 Vmp $ 38.80 $ 0.97 134 
09SUN-60 39" x 26" 60 Watt, 3.33 Imp, 14.40 Vmp $ 58.20 $ 0.97 2 
06SUN-140 58 1/4" x 38 1/4" 140 Watt, 7.12 Imp, 16.20 Vmp $ 135.80 $ 0.97 16 
07SUN-45 31" x 61" 45 Watt, 1.89 Imp, 19.26 Vmp $ 43.65 $ 0.97 3 
03SUN-155 42" x 31" 155 Watt, 3.32 Imp, 38.70 Vmp $ 150.35 $ 0.97 1 
11SUN-75 57 3/4" x 25 3/4" 75 Watt, 4.10 Imp, 15.30 Vmp $ 72.75 $ 0.97 36 
07SUN-65 31 3/4" x 63 1/2" 65 Watt, 4.67 Imp, 11.66 Vmp $ 63.05 $ 0.97 7 
12SUN-40 38 7/8" x 29 3/4" 40 Watt, 2.28 Imp, 14.40 Vmp $ 38.80 $ 0.97 1 
09SUN-60 33 1/2" x 25 3/4" 60 Watt, 2.97 Imp, 16.20 Vmp $ 58.20 $ 0.97 5


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## Old Rocks

Pappadave said:


> I support green energy. I just want it to stand on its on merits. One of the reasons for getting off the grid is its massive vulnerability. One small overload at Niagara Falls caused a blackout all over the northeast states. A similar failure in the Midwest (I think Ohio) did the same thing. A large EMP would shutdown virtually the entire system. If all of our homes were independently powered, at least some would still function. Pay-back tariffs are too low. When the utility pays us what they claim it costs them to produce power, You could justify the higher capital costs for a larger home system. Pappadave.



Note the costs in this site.

Solar Panels - $1.55/W solar panels! Free Solar Panel Survey

Now you can have your cake and eat it, also. You can have a storage bank of batteries that your sytem keeps charged, and also be connected to the grid. With a 5 kw system, you should be able to make money on the escess energy that you create. Actually, today, the storage batteries would be the most expensive part of your system. Perhaps, at present, the most economical thing to do would be to do a grid-tie system, and have a gas or diesel generator backup.


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## mdn2000

There is no such thing as "Green Renewable Energy", 

How will you make your solar panel, what are the materials, how do you get those materials, how much of the materials do you need, how much total waste is involved.

You have to use fossil fuel at a faster rate to make solar panels that produce less energy than using the fossil fuel directly to produce electricity.

Renewable, the solar panels need to be replaced, again using more fossil energy.

Further, the original panels become garbage, thousands of square miles of garbage, thousands more square miles of garbage than burning coal for the equivalent amount of electricity.

No such thing as Green


----------



## jeffrockit

CurveLight said:


> jeffrockit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is, if we are debating the merits of reducing our dependency on oil and reduce coal fired plants, an electric car that will have a rechargeable battery, that will be recharged with energy from either of those sources, seem to nullify the goals of reducing anything.
> 
> Rather than try to social engineer our country or do something for political reasons, we should be smart about reducing our dependency and not just go around in circles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you know how much oil/coal/electricity is required to charge lithium ion batteries for cars?
Click to expand...


No. I would like to see actual facts and figures supported by neutral sources. My point is, we don't currently use that power source for automobiles but with the advent of electric cars, will. No matter how low the usage is, it will still be added to the amount already used for everything else; so we will yet increase our usage more. BTW, where do the spent batteries go?


----------



## mdn2000

jeffrockit said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeffrockit said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point is, if we are debating the merits of reducing our dependency on oil and reduce coal fired plants, an electric car that will have a rechargeable battery, that will be recharged with energy from either of those sources, seem to nullify the goals of reducing anything.
> 
> Rather than try to social engineer our country or do something for political reasons, we should be smart about reducing our dependency and not just go around in circles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know how much oil/coal/electricity is required to charge lithium ion batteries for cars?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No. I would like to see actual facts and figures supported by neutral sources. My point is, we don't currently use that power source for automobiles but with the advent of electric cars, will. No matter how low the usage is, it will still be added to the amount already used for everything else; so we will yet increase our usage more. BTW, where do the spent batteries go?
Click to expand...


If all cars ran on electricity gas would be a toxic waste that we would have to burn to get rid of.


----------



## jeffrockit

mdn2000 said:


> jeffrockit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know how much oil/coal/electricity is required to charge lithium ion batteries for cars?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. I would like to see actual facts and figures supported by neutral sources. My point is, we don't currently use that power source for automobiles but with the advent of electric cars, will. No matter how low the usage is, it will still be added to the amount already used for everything else; so we will yet increase our usage more. BTW, where do the spent batteries go?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If all cars ran on electricity gas would be a toxic waste that we would have to burn to get rid of.
Click to expand...


Seems you were unable to answer your own question. If all cars ran on electricity, the cost would skyrocket, the infrastructure for the charging stations in all 50 states would more than likely come out of higher taxes and again, what do we do with the spent batteries?


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## mdn2000

There is no such thing as Green Energy, the manufacturer of Solar Panels requires massive amounts of Fossil Energy.

Solar panels cannot be built with solar energy, solar energy cannot produce that kind of power.

Solar panels have short lifespans, we will have to throw the old ones in the garbage and use massive amounts of fossil energy to build new ones. 

Solar panels require millions of gallons of water every year, solar energy is to weak to pump water, the water needed will be pumped with fossil energy, a hidden subsidy.

We must use more fossil energy at a faster rate than we use today to make more solar panels and to service solar farms.

Solar energy is not Green.

There is no such thing as Green Energy.


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## Douger

I have a Skystream but prefer these.
15KW
Costs about a grand to build them.

I have a buddy that built a ten footer. 100KW. Powers the whole damn pueblo for free.


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## mdn2000

Douger said:


> I have a Skystream but prefer these.
> 15KW
> Costs about a grand to build them.
> 
> I have a buddy that built a ten footer. 100KW. Powers the whole damn pueblo for free.



Great, that cheap and so powerful, the debate is over, everyone will buy them, I will go to Harbor Freight tomorrow and get ten. 

Nothing will win the debate easier than a cheap source of power, everyone will obviously want at least two, need one for back-up. Should be available fast, what corporation would not want to sell billions of these.


----------

