# Hmmm....girl shot in London...but they don't have the 2nd Amendment there....



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

How is this possible.....they have gun control in England.....









						Teenage girl shot in London in early hours as neighbours ‘hear screams’
					

Local residents allegedly heard a woman ‘screaming’ and ‘five gun shots’ in the area on Saturday morning




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How is this possible.....they have gun control in England.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man killed in car accident.


How is this possible?  We have traffic control


----------



## Meister (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How is this possible.....they have gun control in England.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But, but, but......they don't have guns over there.  Are you sure it was bullet that entered her body?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Meister said:


> But, but, but......they don't have guns over there.  Are you sure it was bullet that entered her body?


Man dies of drug overdose 

How is this possible.  We have drug control


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Man killed in car accident.
> 
> 
> How is this possible?  We have traffic control




Thank you for proving my point....


----------



## Meister (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Man killed in car accident.
> 
> 
> How is this possible?  We have traffic control


Vehicles illegal?


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Man dies of drug overdose
> 
> How is this possible.  We have drug control



Thank you for proving my point.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> I accept your concession




Yeah.....gun control doesn't work on an Island that banned and confiscated guns...and you think you won?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Meister said:


> Vehicles illegal?


Some are


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah.....gun control doesn't work on an Island that banned and confiscated guns...and you think you won?


And traffic control or drug control doesnt work either


Do you see it yet?  Lol


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And traffic control or drug control doesnt work either
> 
> 
> Do you see it yet?  Lol




I see your lame attempt at justifying banning guns.......crashing against an island that banned and confiscated guns, and the criminals get all the guns they want and need, while the citizens are defenseless....


----------



## Meister (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I see your lame attempt at justifying banning guns.......crashing against an island that banned and confiscated guns, and the criminals get all the guns they want and need, while the citizens are defenseless....


And if our government did the same to us, the criminals would always have guns, and gun violence would increase.
Look at the cities over here that have relaxed the laws on arrests, it has emboldened the criminals and crimes have increased.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Meister said:


> And if our government did the same to us, the criminals would always have guns, and gun violence would increase.
> Look at the cities over here that have relaxed the laws on arrests, it has emboldened the criminals and crimes have increased.




Yep.....apparently, releasing the very criminals actually using guns to shoot people leads to more people being shot by those criminals.....who would have guessed?


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Man killed in car accident.
> 
> 
> How is this possible?  We have traffic control


No we don't...lol.  Literally ANYONE can get a driver's license, even illegal aliens who can read English and don't know what the street signs say.


----------



## LuckyDuck (Apr 23, 2022)

Brazil has strict gun laws and accompanying requirements to own them.  Since implementing its strict gun laws, the gun death via murder, just kept rising and rising and rising.  It continues to have more murders by firearms than the United States.  Brazil's current president, Jair Bolsonaro, was and is in favor of rearming citizens so that they can defend themselves against armed criminals, as well to defend Brazil against a tyrannical government.  Per President Bolsonaro:  "Everybody has to buy a rifle," and "The armed will never be enslaved."  When campaigning, on his office door was the sign:  "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."   He obviously won on his campaign.  As a side note, it's interesting that the majority of murders via guns in Brazil, comes out of the black communities and drug related.


----------



## PinktheFloyd88 (Apr 23, 2022)

I love that this poster only talks about Guns. It's kinda cool...in a sad kinda way...


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Apr 23, 2022)

PinktheFloyd88 said:


> I love that this poster only talks about Guns. It's kinda cool...in a sad kinda way...


I think it's great.  You only talk about Trump...lol


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 24, 2022)

LuckyDuck said:


> Brazil has strict gun laws and accompanying requirements to own them.  Since implementing its strict gun laws, the gun death via murder, just kept rising and rising and rising.  It continues to have more murders by firearms than the United States.  Brazil's current president, Jair Bolsonaro, was and is in favor of rearming citizens so that they can defend themselves against armed criminals, as well to defend Brazil against a tyrannical government.  Per President Bolsonaro:  "Everybody has to buy a rifle," and "The armed will never be enslaved."  When campaigning, on his office door was the sign:  "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."   He obviously won on his campaign.  As a side note, it's interesting that the majority of murders via guns in Brazil, comes out of the black communities and drug related.




He made it easier to own guns...the gun murder rate in Brazil has gone down...


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 24, 2022)

PinktheFloyd88 said:


> I love that this poster only talks about Guns. It's kinda cool...in a sad kinda way...




Who would that be?


----------



## Open Bolt (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How is this possible.....they have gun control in England.....


Had this poor serf girl been free and had the right to keep and bear arms, she might have been able to take out her attacker before he injured her.

I'm glad I'm not a serf.


----------



## bodecea (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How is this possible.....they have gun control in England.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How many do you say?


----------



## whitehall (Apr 26, 2022)

"They don't have the 2nd Amendment". That's for sure. The United States of America is the only country in the world that lists guaranteed freedoms in the Bill of Rights aka the 1st ten Amendments to the Constitution. Keep that in mind when traveling.


----------



## Open Bolt (Apr 26, 2022)

whitehall said:


> "They don't have the 2nd Amendment". That's for sure. The United States of America is the only country in the world that lists guaranteed freedoms in the Bill of Rights aka the 1st ten Amendments to the Constitution. Keep that in mind when traveling.


Traveling into Canada always makes me uncomfortable because of the lack of freedom.

There are some parts of Europe that are free.  The Czech Republic for example.  Their freedom is not guaranteed by something as immutable as our Bill of Rights, but they do have freedom backed up by statutory law.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Apr 27, 2022)

Meister said:


> But, but, but......they don't have guns over there.  Are you sure it was bullet that entered her body?


Guess what cupcake, you still get incidents, but did you not notice that the number of incidents in a year in the UK is about 5 seconds worth in the US.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Apr 27, 2022)

Meister said:


> Vehicles illegal?


Guns aren't illegal either. Cars have gears, do you think you should put your brain in gear too!!

I've gone over this a thousand times with gun nuts, is there nothing between their lugs to keep information in? Regulations and laws reduce incidents, they do not stop incidents. Did you comprehend that? Do you need your carer to explain? What's up with you guys? Car licencing, safety laws, vehicle inspections, road regulations etc.. helps to reduce car accidents and incidents, they don't stop them, they allow safer usage of cars.

Guns, regulations and laws do not stop incidents, they reduce them. They allow for safer use in a safer environment with more people respecting guns than those wanting to use them on others.

You gun nuts make my Jack Russell look like Einstein.


----------



## beautress (Apr 27, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Man dies of drug overdose
> 
> How is this possible.  We have drug control


Open border changed that. Goodnight, everybody.


----------



## Meister (Apr 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Guns aren't illegal either. Cars have gears, do you think you should put your brain in gear too!!
> 
> I've gone over this a thousand times with gun nuts, is there nothing between their lugs to keep information in? Regulations and laws reduce incidents, they do not stop incidents. Did you comprehend that? Do you need your carer to explain? What's up with you guys? Car licencing, safety laws, vehicle inspections, road regulations etc.. helps to reduce car accidents and incidents, they don't stop them, they allow safer usage of cars.
> 
> ...


  Did you know the topic is regarding London, WHERE HANDGUNS ARE ILLEGAL?
By the way, scooter,  you make an amoeba look like Einstein.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Apr 27, 2022)

Meister said:


> Did you know the topic is regarding London, WHERE HANDGUNS ARE ILLEGAL?
> By the way, scooter,  you make an amoeba look like Einstein.


I can only assume you are a child. Illegal things will still happen. Illegal cars will still be driven in an illegal way. Illegal guns can still be illegally in use. You're thicker than my kitchen worktop. 

I can only assume gun nuts 'appear' to go into full retard mode purely to flame-bait.

No matter how much legislation and regulations are in place, incidents will happen, albeit very few. Where you guys run nuts.


----------



## Meister (Apr 27, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> I can only assume you are a child. Illegal things will still happen. Illegal cars will still be driven in an illegal way. Illegal guns can still be illegally in use. You're thicker than my kitchen worktop.
> 
> I can only assume gun nuts 'appear' to go into full retard mode purely to flame-bait.
> 
> No matter how much legislation and regulations are in place, incidents will happen, albeit very few. Where you guys run nuts.


Moving the goalposts now?  How childish is that?   
Dude, I'm not sure you understand the meat of this thread.  I can't fix that for you.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Apr 27, 2022)

Meister said:


> Moving the goalposts now?  How childish is that?
> Dude, I'm not sure you understand the meat of this thread.  I can't fix that for you.


No goalposts are moving, you are just butt-hurt when you're constantly being spanked on guns. Regulations on food hygiene, cars, building codes/regs, guns etc.... reduce incidents. The laws and regs do not stop people serving out of date chicken, driving a dodgy car, installing a badly fitted under-spec lintel and owning and using an illegal gun. 
So yet again, guns laws in the UK vastly reduce gun incidents where a year worths of stats in the UK are wiped out in about 5 seconds in the US.

Whether someone is shot with a legal gun by a person legally owning said gun, or whether it's an illegal gun used by someone not legally eligible to own a gun, the gun laws and regs reduce incidents. One case happens in London and the gun nuts are behind their computer screens masturbating.

So again, you make my Jack Russell look like Einstein.

The 2nd Amendment creates a culture of gun nuts willing shoot their neighbour. They're the worst type of gun owner to have, and they're are classed as the sensible gun owners in America. Work tops abound.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Apr 28, 2022)

Meister said:


> Did you know the topic is regarding London, WHERE HANDGUNS ARE ILLEGAL?
> By the way, scooter,  you make an amoeba look like Einstein.


Erm, technically they're not illegal if their barrels are over a certain length.
Take a look at the guns you can legally buy in the UK


----------



## Meister (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Erm, technically they're not illegal if their barrels are over a certain length.
> Take a look at the guns you can legally buy in the UK


Technically?   

For the most part, and for the vast majority of handguns in the UK, they are illegal.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Apr 28, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The 2nd Amendment creates a culture of gun nuts willing shoot their neighbour. They're the worst type of gun owner to have, and they're are classed as the sensible gun owners in America.


Spot on, that's the "problem" in a nutshell. Incidents like this don't happen in the UK, because our gun owners tend not to be frightened of shadows and prone to over react.
Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot


----------



## Vagabond63 (Apr 28, 2022)

Meister said:


> Technically?
> 
> For the most part, and for the vast majority of handguns in the UK, they are illegal.


You stated in capitals, "WHERE HANDGUNS ARE ILLEGAL" I merely demonstrated you were in error.


----------



## Meister (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Spot on, that's the "problem" in a nutshell. Incidents like this don't happen in the UK, because our gun owners tend not to be frightened of shadows and prone to over react.
> Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot


A good read for a person with an open mind, this might not be a good read for you, though. 

The numbers of defensive gun uses (DGUs) each year is controversial. But one study ordered by the CDC and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:




> Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.


Another study estimates there are 1,029,615 DGUs per year “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere” excluding “military service, police work, or work as a security guard,” (within the range of the National Academies’ paper), yielding an estimate of 162,000 cases per year where someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.”

(In comparison, there were 11,208 homicide deaths by firearm in the US in 2012. There were a total of 33,636 deaths due to “injury by firearms,” of which the majority were suicides, 21,175.)








						Any Study Of 'Gun Violence' Should Include How Guns Save Lives
					

Guns are used for legal self-defense far more often than most people realize.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Meister (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You stated in capitals, "WHERE HANDGUNS ARE ILLEGAL" I merely demonstrated you were in error.


Handguns are illegal there.  Walk down a London street brandishing a Glock.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Spot on, that's the "problem" in a nutshell. Incidents like this don't happen in the UK, because our gun owners tend not to be frightened of shadows and prone to over react.
> Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot




We have over 600 million guns in the U.S.....

Over 20 million Americans carry guns for self defense.....

Accidental gun deaths in 2020?

535......out of over 330 million people......

Cars kill over 39,000.....accidentally. 

And then, as Meister points out, the lives saved by Americans with guns......saved from rape, robbery, murder, stabbings, beatings.......

1.1 million times a year Americans use their legal guns for self defense.....

Saving lives from rape, robbery, murder, beatings and stabbings....

And while you are here.....

*A woman is about to be dragged into an alley, beaten, raped, then murdered......do you believe she should be able to use a gun to stop the attack?

If not, why not?

A member of the House of Lords wants to hunt birds on one of his large estates, he can get a gun permit because this is considered a good reason to own a gun in Britain.   The above woman, about to be raped, beaten and murdered, can't get a permit to own a gun.....self defense, the stopping of a rape, beating and murder is not a "good reason," to own a gun in Britain...

Do you support this, and if so, why?*


----------



## Mac-7 (Apr 28, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And traffic control or drug control doesnt work either
> 
> 
> Do you see it yet?  Lol


Does this mean you support law-abiding Americans right to keep and bear arms?


----------



## Open Bolt (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Erm, technically they're not illegal if their barrels are over a certain length.


When a handgun has to be longer than a rifle, it isn't really a handgun.

And it's not like you guys have ready access to rifles either.  You can only have one if your masters decide that you have a legitimate need for one.  And even then it will not have enough firepower for effective self defense.

It's such a tragedy that you guys gave up your freedom, and that you gave it up for nothing.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Spot on, that's the "problem" in a nutshell. Incidents like this don't happen in the UK, because our gun owners tend not to be frightened of shadows and prone to over react.
> Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot




Well....British women walk around afraid all the time...they just don't get to do anything to alleviate that fear.....is that how you like your women?

*Politicians, comedians, TV stars and journalists are among hundreds of women who have shared their experiences of feeling a sense of fear when walking home alone, as they expressed their sadness over the news a police officer has been arrested on suspicion of kidnapping and murdering Sarah Everard.*









						'Always with keys out': hundreds of women tell of fear of walking alone
					

Politicians, writers and others share stories after officer is arrested on suspicion of Sarah Everard’s murder




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Spot on, that's the "problem" in a nutshell. Incidents like this don't happen in the UK, because our gun owners tend not to be frightened of shadows and prone to over react.
> Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot




This woman is terrified......but in Britain, she just has to suffer.....

*I try to recall through my panic the things I have done to mitigate the chances of an attack: the locks all double bolted, the keys taken out and placed far away so that if a person smashed through the glass they couldn’t easily open them. When I was terribly afraid one night I took a small sharp knife and hid it in a secret place accessible from where I sit in my bed. I can take it out without making much noise. There is another creak from the hallway, and I silently retrieve the blade from its hiding place and hold it in one hand and my phone in the other. I sit there like this, rigid with conviction and terror, for more than an hour. No thoughts pass through my head in this time apart from keen listening for the next noise and what direction it comes from, strategising my escape. Can I be sure they are coming from the area I think they are, or could they be coming from both sides? Is it wise to lock myself in a toilet? Am I strong and small enough to break through that window if necessary?*

*Eventually, I accept that I am too frightened to move to check whether someone is outside my bedroom door one way or the other, and that the elapsed time means that it is unlikely they are there. I put the knife back in its place and turn on the two lamps on either side of my bed, and a podcast so that it might sound to somebody outside that there are several people in this room. I lie back down and practise some breathing exercises to try to sleep. It’s now perhaps 4am and I have lost half of my allotted rest. I am useless and angry when I wake up, aware of the absurdity of my fear and that I have allowed it, by indulging, to ruin my day.*

*This happens two, three, sometimes four times a month. Twice as many times as that I am woken in the middle of the night with dreams that somebody is entering my window or sitting on my bed, terrors which are both more and less intense because they are unconscious, but which mean just the same that my sleep is robbed and fragmented, my body feeling as if it has been through a battle when it wakes in the morning.









						I love living on my own – so why am I so scared of the dark?
					

Megan Nolan always dreamed of having her own lovely home. But now terrifying thoughts keep her awake at night. Here, the author wonders why




					www.theguardian.com
				



*


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Erm, technically they're not illegal if their barrels are over a certain length.
> Take a look at the guns you can legally buy in the UK






Vagabond63 said:


> Spot on, that's the "problem" in a nutshell. Incidents like this don't happen in the UK, because our gun owners tend not to be frightened of shadows and prone to over react.
> Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot




Hmmm....these Britons seem to be afraid too.....but again, they just have to live in fear, there is nothing they can do to not be afraid...

*A nation-wide study into perceptions and experiences of crime in the UK, has revealed a staggering 73 percent of Brits believe that crime is on the increase in their area.
---
23 percent of Brits say they are sometimes kept awake at night with worries about being a victim of crime, with a further 28 percent saying they sometimes feel afraid in their own home.
----
According to the survey data, half of us worry about being broken into, 37 percent worry about being mugged or attacked in the street, and 24 percent worry about having our car broken into or stolen.
Meanwhile, the latest ONS statistics report that over 80 percent of people who've actually experienced burglary or had their car stolen suffer an emotional impact, ranging from anger and shock to fear and depression. A fifth of burglary victims (21 percent) report anxiety or panic attacks following the theft.*









						Half of Britons live in fear of crime in their neighbourhood
					

More than half of Britons (52 percent) are living in fear of crime in their neighbourhood, according to a new report.




					www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk
				




You know, before you make half ass comments, you should really do a little research....


----------



## Captain Caveman (May 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Spot on, that's the "problem" in a nutshell. Incidents like this don't happen in the UK, because our gun owners tend not to be frightened of shadows and prone to over react.
> Mom: Daughter mistaken for intruder by father, fatally shot


The mentality I see with the gun nuts is to resolve everything by shooting it and shooting first.


----------



## 2aguy (May 1, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The mentality I see with the gun nuts is to resolve everything by shooting it and shooting first.




Yeah...only an idiot like you would think that.   We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 20 million Americans carry guns legally in public for self defense...

If law abiding people used their guns the way your insane dreams believe they do...we would have a lot more dead people here.

The reality is that the gun murders in this country are committed by criminals with long criminal histories of crime and violence......who cannot legally buy, own or carry guns.....Most of their victims are other criminals, and most of this shooting occurs in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities....and the reason we have the levels we do is because leftists of the democrat party keep releasing the most violent, dangerous criminals back on to the streets, over and over again.   If the democrats would stop releasing these criminals, our gun crime rates in democrat party controlled cities would be better than Europe, and we would still have armed civilians......


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The reality is that the gun murders in this country are committed by criminals with long criminal histories of crime and violence......who cannot legally buy, own or carry guns.....Most of their victims are other criminals, and most of this shooting occurs in tiny areas


So that means you don't need guns for self defence. Thanks for destroying your own argument.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This woman is terrified......but in Britain, she just has to suffer....


Well, given she's mentally disturbed, she can get psychiatric help on the NHS, so, no, she doesn't have to suffer.


----------



## Open Bolt (May 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So that means you don't need guns for self defence.


Americans aren't serfs.  We're free people.  That means we don't have to need them.

If we choose to carry a gun for self defense, we do so.




Vagabond63 said:


> Thanks for destroying your own argument.


His argument is holding up just fine.

Guns have defensive uses for the law abiding even if most shootings are criminal on criminal.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You know, before you make half ass comments, you should really do a little research....


Soo, an insurance company selling insurance, surveys 2000 people and spins the results to frighten anyone who can be bothered to read it to... buy insurance! WOW! That's really scientific research... next?


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 5, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Americans aren't serfs.


Oh, you are, you really are; slaves/serfs to a predatory wealthy class that manipulates you to think what they want you to think, while maintaining the illusion in your minds that you are a "free" people.


----------



## Open Bolt (May 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, you are, you really are; slaves/serfs to a predatory wealthy class that manipulates you to think what they want you to think, while maintaining the illusion in your minds that you are a "free" people.


That is incorrect.  We have the right to have guns.

The serfs are over in the UK.


----------



## 2aguy (May 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So that means you don't need guns for self defence. Thanks for destroying your own argument.




Why would you say that......criminals also target normal people.......for robbery, rape, murders, beatings and stabbings....that they focus on each other doesn't mean they don't target law abiding people.....


----------



## 2aguy (May 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, given she's mentally disturbed, she can get psychiatric help on the NHS, so, no, she doesn't have to suffer.




Until someone actually does break in, beat, rape and murder her.....except for that...


----------



## 2aguy (May 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, you are, you really are; slaves/serfs to a predatory wealthy class that manipulates you to think what they want you to think, while maintaining the illusion in your minds that you are a "free" people.




And you explain British life really well........bowing the knee to your lords, ladies and wealthy...


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So that means you don't need guns for self defence.


That's a-prime- example of a non-seq.
Well done.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Until someone actually does break in, beat, rape and murder her.....except for that...


There is that very, very, very, remote possibility, agreed. However, in the UK the overwhelming majority of modern houses come with composite doors and highly secure locks such as ABS, which are all but immune to lockpicks, crowbars and even police "battering rams". There are equivalent windows too. Also a lot of people have video doorbells and security cameras. These measures tend to deter almost all burglars/housebreakers/rapists and murderers. Were she to retrofit these items to her home, they would still work out cheaper than a gun and ammunition, secure storage and necessary training.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you explain British life really well........bowing the knee to your lords, ladies and wealthy...


Erm, you bow from the waist, and you kneel by going down on one knee, do keep up. I describe life in America also, but then, you voted for Trump, so I'll say no more.


----------



## 2aguy (May 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> There is that very, very, very, remote possibility, agreed. However, in the UK the overwhelming majority of modern houses come with composite doors and highly secure locks such as ABS, which are all but immune to lockpicks, crowbars and even police "battering rams". There are equivalent windows too. Also a lot of people have video doorbells and security cameras. These measures tend to deter almost all burglars/housebreakers/rapists and murderers. Were she to retrofit these items to her home, they would still work out cheaper than a gun and ammunition, secure storage and necessary training.




And this is the problem...where your self defense laws break down...

*hese measures tend to deter almost all burglars/housebreakers/rapists and murderers.*


----------



## 2aguy (May 7, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> There is that very, very, very, remote possibility, agreed. However, in the UK the overwhelming majority of modern houses come with composite doors and highly secure locks such as ABS, which are all but immune to lockpicks, crowbars and even police "battering rams". There are equivalent windows too. Also a lot of people have video doorbells and security cameras. These measures tend to deter almost all burglars/housebreakers/rapists and murderers. Were she to retrofit these items to her home, they would still work out cheaper than a gun and ammunition, secure storage and necessary training.




Also.....those doors and expensive windows ....they can't be carried around by the woman.....

Merseyside Police is investigating reports a woman was raped in Liverpool city centre.

Officers were called to a report of a rape in the city centre at around 3.30am on Sunday, February 6.









						Rape investigation launched after 'woman attacked in alleyway'
					

Officers from British Transport Police were in attendance at Lime Street station




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


----------



## FJB (May 7, 2022)

Hmm,.. criminals breaking the law and committing crimes,.. what a concept.


----------



## 2aguy (May 7, 2022)

To British women....guns are not "scary," they are a tool......


----------



## FJB (May 7, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To British women....guns are not "scary," they are a tool......




Which they should know that already because of the British army.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Also.....those doors and expensive windows ....they can't be carried around by the woman....


Well, we were talking about a woman living alone being afraid that someone might break in, now you move the goalposts as soon as a viable solution is proposed, typical "snake oil" fear peddling. Did you know only 15% of rapes in the UK in 2020 were carried out by strangers? In every other case the rapist was well known to the victim, usually an ex-or current partner, or "friend" or "workmate". People who would know if the victim was armed in any event, so a gun would be useless.

Go fear-monger somewhere else.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> To British women....guns are not "scary," they are a tool......


Poor woman, suppose she has to learn how to use a gun, if she's going to marry an American and live in such an uncivilised country. She wouldn't need a gun for self defence in the UK or anywhere else in Europe, still I do miss going to my gun club and firing off a few rounds, it was fun, but sooner or later we all have to grow up.


----------



## 2aguy (May 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, we were talking about a woman living alone being afraid that someone might break in, now you move the goalposts as soon as a viable solution is proposed, typical "snake oil" fear peddling. Did you know only 15% of rapes in the UK in 2020 were carried out by strangers? In every other case the rapist was well known to the victim, usually an ex-or current partner, or "friend" or "workmate". People who would know if the victim was armed in any event, so a gun would be useless.
> 
> Go fear-monger somewhere else.



Wow….I am sure that the women raped by strangers take great comfort in that statistic……and the women whose ex husbands or boyfriends rape them, guys they know,  would like to have had the option of shooting them out of their sox…..


----------



## 2aguy (May 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Poor woman, suppose she has to learn how to use a gun, if she's going to marry an American and live in such an uncivilised country. She wouldn't need a gun for self defence in the UK or anywhere else in Europe, still I do miss going to my gun club and firing off a few rounds, it was fun, but sooner or later we all have to grow up.



Yes…..there is no such thing as violent crime in the U.K. And there never will be…..you live in peaceful bliss among the unicorns and yard gnomes…….rape and murder are just illusions in the U.K…..


----------



## Open Bolt (May 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> In every other case the rapist was well known to the victim, usually an ex-or current partner, or "friend" or "workmate". People who would know if the victim was armed in any event, so a gun would be useless.


Hardly useless.




Vagabond63 said:


> She wouldn't need a gun for self defence in the UK


Rather, she would be told that she doesn't need a gun, and then be prevented from having it, because in the UK she would be nothing but a serf.




Vagabond63 said:


> or anywhere else in Europe,


Not true.  There is plenty of freedom in the arc of countries that ranges from Finland down through Switzerland.




Vagabond63 said:


> still I do miss going to my gun club and firing off a few rounds, it was fun, but sooner or later we all have to grow up.


In free countries, grown ups are allowed to shoot guns.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 8, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> In free countries, grown ups are allowed to shoot guns.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wow….I am sure that the women raped by strangers take great comfort in that statistic……and the women whose ex husbands or boyfriends rape them, guys they know, would like to have had the option of shooting them out of their sox…..


*sigh* Once again you resort to facetious sarcasm, as if rapists go around advertising their intent. In cases where ex partners are involved, what makes you think they wouldn't know that their victim was armed and where they kept the weapon? If they subsequently shot their attacker they would risk being charged with manslaughter at the very least, because in civilised countries, your right to defend yourself is limited to using proportionate force.


2aguy said:


> Yes…..there is no such thing as violent crime in the U.K. And there never will be…..you live in peaceful bliss among the unicorns and yard gnomes…….rape and murder are just illusions in the U.K…..


Point out to me please, where I have ever stated that there is no such thing as violent crime, I'll wait. Oh, and they're called garden gnomes, do keep up.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 9, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> Hardly useless.


See post #68


Open Bolt said:


> Rather, she would be told that she doesn't need a gun, and then be prevented from having it, because in the UK she would be nothing but a serf.


As opposed to America where she is constantly told (manipulated) that she needs a gun by the fear mongering gun lobby tyring to boost gun sales.


Open Bolt said:


> Not true. There is plenty of freedom in the arc of countries that ranges from Finland down through Switzerland.


Not for self defence, and all these countries have strong gun control legislation.


Open Bolt said:


> In free countries, grown ups are allowed to shoot guns.


Yes, they are. However they need to obtain a licence, register their weapons and only use them on a registered shooting range or for sport when the season permits, except for a few less civilised countries where their populations are allowed to believe they are free, while being manipluated by a wealthy predatory group that puts profits before people.


----------



## 2aguy (May 9, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> *sigh* Once again you resort to facetious sarcasm, as if rapists go around advertising their intent. In cases where ex partners are involved, what makes you think they wouldn't know that their victim was armed and where they kept the weapon? If they subsequently shot their attacker they would risk being charged with manslaughter at the very least, because in civilised countries, your right to defend yourself is limited to using proportionate force.
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated that there is no such thing as violent crime, I'll wait. Oh, and they're called garden gnomes, do keep up.




So...you would rather leave the woman defenseless in the face of a violent ex?    

Proportionate force against a rapist is lethal force.....


----------



## 2aguy (May 9, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> See post #68
> 
> As opposed to America where she is constantly told (manipulated) that she needs a gun by the fear mongering gun lobby tyring to boost gun sales.
> 
> ...




Yes...we know...

A woman who doesn't want to be raped in a park, her home, a tube station.....cannot get a license to own or carry a gun because self defense is not a valid reason to own a gun...

The member of the House of Lords who wants to take his rich buddies quail hunting on one of his many estates can easily get a license because quail hunting by a member of the House of Lords, is a valid reason....


----------



## 2aguy (May 9, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> See post #68
> 
> As opposed to America where she is constantly told (manipulated) that she needs a gun by the fear mongering gun lobby tyring to boost gun sales.
> 
> ...




Less Civilized, like Europe......World War 1, World War 2, 15 million innocent men, women and children murdered by the socialists and the countries they occupied...after taking away their guns in the 1920s and 30s....on the promise that giving up their guns would make them safer....

Europe is far from civilized......and without the U.S. keeping you guys from killing each other, you would have commenced the slaughter, again, decades ago...


----------



## Open Bolt (May 9, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> In cases where ex partners are involved, what makes you think they wouldn't know that their victim was armed and where they kept the weapon?


Presumably that place would be in a holster on her person.  I don't see how the bad guy having this knowledge would prevent her from defending herself if necessary.




Vagabond63 said:


> If they subsequently shot their attacker they would risk being charged with manslaughter at the very least, because in civilised countries, your right to defend yourself is limited to using proportionate force.


Proportionate force against a rapist is a magazine full of hollowpoints through both the heart and spine.




Vagabond63 said:


> Not for self defence,


That is incorrect.  The Czech Republic has strong self defense rights.  So do the three Baltic states.

Austria, Slovakia, and Poland are not quite as strong in self defense rights, but they do have self defense rights there as well.




Vagabond63 said:


> and all these countries have strong gun control legislation.


That depends on what strong means.  Their laws are not all that much stronger than US gun laws.

And Switzerland has gun control not because they ever needed it, but only because the EU forced it on them.  They did just fine with no gun control before the EU.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> So...you would rather leave the woman defenseless in the face of a violent ex?
> 
> Proportionate force against a rapist is lethal force.....


Who says I would, and since when does the crime of rape carry a death penalty? There are other strategies women can adopt, for example, as delineated here.


			https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03616843211043948#_i14
		


More and more parents in the UK are enrolling their girl children in self defence courses, guns are not the only solution.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A woman who doesn't want to be raped in a park, her home, a tube station.....cannot get a license to own or carry a gun because self defense is not a valid reason to own a gun...


As I've said, there are other stategies available, guns are not the only solution.


2aguy said:


> The member of the House of Lords who wants to take his rich buddies quail hunting on one of his many estates can easily get a license because quail hunting by a member of the House of Lords, is a valid reason....


Erm, we don't hunt quail in the UK, do keep up.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Less Civilized, like Europe......World War 1, World War 2,


Yes, we have moved on, unlike America, which appears to be regressing into the "Wild West". As someone once said, "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without ever knowing civilization."


----------



## 2aguy (May 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Who says I would, and since when does the crime of rape carry a death penalty? There are other strategies women can adopt, for example, as delineated here.
> 
> 
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03616843211043948#_i14
> ...




The most effective tool is a gun.   A woman is smaller and less strong than even small men......and having practiced martial arts my entire life, I can tell you, that most women are not going to be able to defeat a man in hand to hand combat, let alone if he has a knife, gun or club ........or if there is more than one......


----------



## 2aguy (May 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, we have moved on, unlike America, which appears to be regressing into the "Wild West". As someone once said, "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without ever knowing civilization."



You think you have improved, but you have imported violent, 3rd world males from war torn countries ....and they don't care about your norms, your police, or your culture..... the Mayor of London stated that women are not safe on London streets.....


----------



## 2aguy (May 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Who says I would, and since when does the crime of rape carry a death penalty? There are other strategies women can adopt, for example, as delineated here.
> 
> 
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03616843211043948#_i14
> ...




Wow.....that link is funny........I didn't know you were a comedian........pushing off a drunk gropper isn't the same as the violent monster grabbing them at the tube station....


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 11, 2022)

Open Bolt said:


> That depends on what strong means.


We don't give guns away like confetti; anyone in Europe who wants a gun has to have good reason, be trained in its use and safety, apply for a license and store the gun securely when not in use. Some countries allow "self defence" as a reason, but the applicant must be able to demonstrate they are in much greater danger than the general population, to get a licence for that reason.


Open Bolt said:


> And Switzerland has gun control not because they ever needed it, but only because the EU forced it on them. They did just fine with no gun control before the EU.



The last person to try to force the Swiss to do anything they didn't want to do, was Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy in the 15th century, look him up.


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You think you have improved, but you have imported violent, 3rd world males from war torn countries ....


Gosh, 28,000 refugees of both sexes from war torn countries, in a population of over 65,000,000. Wow, yeah, right, whatever. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> isn't the same as the violent monster grabbing them at the tube station....


Doesn't happen that often in the UK, compared, perhaps with America.


----------



## Open Bolt (May 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> We don't give guns away like confetti; anyone in Europe who wants a gun has to have good reason, be trained in its use and safety, apply for a license and store the gun securely when not in use.


People in Switzerland are assumed to be buying their guns for a good reason and are not required to provide a reason.




Vagabond63 said:


> Some countries allow "self defence" as a reason, but the applicant must be able to demonstrate they are in much greater danger than the general population, to get a licence for that reason.


There is no such requirement in the Czech Republic and in the three Baltic states.  If a person there wants to carry a gun for self defense, all they have to do is go pass a background check and demonstrate that they are competent to handle guns.

Finland does not allow personal self defense as a reason for private gun ownership.  But they do allow *national* defense as a reason for private gun ownership -- something to do with a particularly hostile country on their border.




Vagabond63 said:


> The last person to try to force the Swiss to do anything they didn't want to do, was Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy in the 15th century, look him up.


The fact remains, the Swiss did not have gun control until the EU required them to have it, and they did just fine when random people could buy machine guns without background checks.




Vagabond63 said:


> Who says I would, and since when does the crime of rape carry a death penalty?


Shooting people is not about killing them or punishing them.  It is about stopping them from harming you.

Gunfire just happens to be the most effective way of preventing harm.


----------



## 2aguy (May 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Doesn't happen that often in the UK, compared, perhaps with America.



Again, the woman who is violently raped will take great comfort when you tell her that her kind of rape doesn’t happen that often, and you tell her …lucky you…..

Yes….we know….a woman who doesn’t want to be rapes, beaten stabbed, robbed or murdered does not have a reason to own or carry a gun

The wealthy member of the House of Lords who wants to take his rich buddies hunting On one of his several private estates….he gets the gun because hunting on your private estate is a good reason

That is how messed up your country is…


----------



## 2aguy (May 12, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> There is that very, very, very, remote possibility, agreed. However, in the UK the overwhelming majority of modern houses come with composite doors and highly secure locks such as ABS, which are all but immune to lockpicks, crowbars and even police "battering rams". There are equivalent windows too. Also a lot of people have video doorbells and security cameras. These measures tend to deter almost all burglars/housebreakers/rapists and murderers. Were she to retrofit these items to her home, they would still work out cheaper than a gun and ammunition, secure storage and necessary training.



I guess this family learned the lesson that doors and windows aren’t enough………and an 11 year old boy was shot in the robbery….in gun free England…

*Shocking doorbell cam footage shows Christopher Sargent, 28, approaching the property in Upminster, east London, while dressed as a courier and carrying a parcel late on May 1, 2020. *
*
As the father bent to pick it up, he was flattened by Sargent, fellow robber Anthony Lascelles, 34, and two other men who forced their way inside.
———

She described fearing she would be raped as Lascelles held a blade to her neck and threw her face down onto the bed. 

The dad was beaten unconscious in the hallway and one of the robbers also held a knife to the young boy’s throat.
————
The court heard it was at this point the 11-year-old boy moved to help his dad and was shot in the shoulder, while the couple’s nine-year-old daughter hid under her bed.  
*










						Hero 11-year-old boy shot trying to defend family during terrifying robbery
					

His dad was also stabbed in the head, while his mum had a knife held to her throat.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## Vagabond63 (May 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I guess this family learned the lesson that doors and windows aren’t enough………and an 11 year old boy was shot in the robbery….in gun free England…


ROFL! Priceless! The boy was shot with a shotgun owned by the father!!! Seems guns weren't enough either! Oh, please, my poor ribs. 
"During the incident, a shotgun that was legally held at the address was discharged, resulting in a gunshot wound to the 11-year-old child’s shoulder." Men jailed after 11-year-old boy shot during burglary in Upminster


----------

