# russian pre ak 47?



## strollingbones

this thing is totally jury rigged to our standards...with the bolt pulled back the bottom plate jumps up...we figure the weight of the bullet pushed it down....anyho..thats about it...and there are of course pictures.  which are loading....do you see the grass?  remember when i was all about hiring the kid for 7 bucks an hour...welll that is what y ou get


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## strollingbones




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## strollingbones

i could use some help here..where are all the vietnam vets?


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## Mr. H.

How's about some photos with the bolt open? Or is it stuck?


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## uscitizen

It looks to be built somewhat like a Mauser.
I have an old 8MM mauser, genuine german.  Many countires pretty much copied the Mauser style.
And yes you push the ammo down into the magazine with the bolt open.


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## CrimsonWhite

That is a Mauser 98 K. Most likely an Eastern block reproduction. Its isn't Vietnam era sweetie. It is WW2 era. Without seeing the proofmarks, I can't identify it with anymore detail. It is definately a K98k, but the fact that the bolt handle is straight tells you that it isn't German. Could Yugo, Chech, or Turkish.


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## uscitizen

But the bolt handle is straight.  MIne is too but the stock still has the cutout for a bent bolt.


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## CrimsonWhite

uscitizen said:


> But the bolt handle is straight.



Not uncommon with reproductions. I sporterized a Turkish K98k. It had a straight bolt handle, before I cut it off.


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## uscitizen

Mine was genuine WW2 surplus.  My grandfather paid I think $7 for it.
If you remove the heelplate on the stock  it has a swastika burned into the end of the stock.

Shoots fine, I have only killed a couple of coyotes with it.


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## Ringel05

That is definitely a WWI Mauser barrel/receiver in a WWII stock.  Can't tell if there are any Waffen marks but that would not always happen.  Many such weapons were issued (out of obsolete stock) to local Volkstrom units at the end of the war.  The two sections could have been mated at that time or afterwards, who knows, the original stock could have been trash and was replaced with a modern one before it was issued.  Also large numbers of weapons were modified by their owners after the war.  Large numbers of K98s were modified as sporting rifles for hunting.  Hell, someone could have recently unsporterized it, mating the two halves together and sold it as a WWII "authentic" piece.


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## Ringel05

*Russian pre ak 47?*

The only pre-AK 47 was the German Sturmgewehr (MP44).


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## eagleseven

Ringel is right, in that it is an early Mauser rifle. Not a WWII 98k, but a 19th-century *Gewher 98.*

How can you tell?

The straight bolt. Modern (World-War-II) bolt-action rifles have bent bolts, so as to avoid catching on things. The first bolt-action rifles, made in the late 19th century, had clumsy straight bolts, like your rifle.






See the straight bolt? That means your rifle mechanism dates back to World War I. It's mounted on modernized furniture, however...and so is a frankengun.

---

Probably a volkstrom militia weapon assembled from old parts near the end of World War II, as Ringel said.


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## eagleseven

CrimsonWhite said:


> but the fact that the bolt handle is straight tells you that it isn't German. Could Yugo, Chech, or Turkish.


The early German rifles had straight bolts...could easily be a WWI-mechanism bolted onto a WWII-stock during the final desperate months of the war.


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## CrimsonWhite

eagleseven said:


> CrimsonWhite said:
> 
> 
> 
> but the fact that the bolt handle is straight tells you that it isn't German. Could Yugo, Chech, or Turkish.
> 
> 
> 
> The early German rifles had straight bolts...could easily be a WWI-mechanism bolted onto a WWII-stock during the final desperate months of the war.
Click to expand...


Could be, but the Turks made K98k's with straight bolt handles. That action looks like a K98k to me.


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## eagleseven

CrimsonWhite said:


> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrimsonWhite said:
> 
> 
> 
> but the fact that the bolt handle is straight tells you that it isn't German. Could Yugo, Chech, or Turkish.
> 
> 
> 
> The early German rifles had straight bolts...could easily be a WWI-mechanism bolted onto a WWII-stock during the final desperate months of the war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be, but the Turks made K98k's with straight bolt handles. That action looks like a K98k to me.
Click to expand...

I've never seen a Turkish Kar, so I wouldn't know.


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## eagleseven

Ringel05 said:


> *Russian pre ak 47?*
> 
> The only pre-AK 47 was the German Sturmgewehr (MP44).


Off-topic...but you can stretch it and suggest the SKS!


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## CrimsonWhite

eagleseven said:


> CrimsonWhite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> The early German rifles had straight bolts...could easily be a WWI-mechanism bolted onto a WWII-stock during the final desperate months of the war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could be, but the Turks made K98k's with straight bolt handles. That action looks like a K98k to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've never seen a Turkish Kar, so I wouldn't know.
Click to expand...


I bought one out of a barrel in a gun shop for like $125. Bought a .308 bull barrel, put it in a sport stock, and had it nickeled. Shot it once and put it in the gun cabinet. Its pretty though.


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## eagleseven

CrimsonWhite said:


> I bought one out of a barrel in a gun shop for like $125. Bought a .308 bull barrel, put it in a sport stock, and had it nickeled. Shot it once and put it in the gun cabinet. Its pretty though.




I've been thinking about buying a Mosin-Nagant just to own one, too!

Interestingly, from wikipedia:



> Large numbers of Gewehr 98 rifles were also given to the Ottoman Empire both during and after the war, including the majority of 1916 Waffenfabrik Oberndorf production. Many of these rifles were converted to the "M38" standard by the Turkish Republic in the years before, during, and after World War II. Today these rifles are widely available in North America along with other Turkish Mausers. Careful observation is usually needed to tell an ex-Gewehr 98 apart from the myriad of other common M38-standard Mausers. Turkish Gewehr 98 rifles that were not converted can be easily identified by a crescent moon stamping on the top of the receiver.



That could explain our confusion regarding this rifle.


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## Ringel05

eagleseven said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Russian pre ak 47?*
> 
> The only pre-AK 47 was the German Sturmgewehr (MP44).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Off-topic...but you can stretch it and suggest the SKS!
Click to expand...


I know the "Russian" argument but what most people don't know and the Russians don't like to mention is Hugo Schmeisser and his brother Hans (the primary designers of the MP44) where allowed to slip into Russian hands and sent to work in the factory Kalashnikov was working in.  Not long after the AK 47 is born...........


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## eagleseven

Ringel05 said:


> I know the "Russian" argument but what most people don't know and the Russians don't like to mention is Hugo Schmeisser and his brother Hans (the primary designers of the MP44) where allowed to slip into Russian hands and sent to work in the factory Kalashnikov was working in.  Not long after the AK 47 is born...........


Ya learn new things everyday...


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## GHook93

strollingbones said:


> i could use some help here..where are all the vietnam vets?



Right Here! I fought in Nam back in A company as a tunnel rat. I have over 1000s kills under my belt. It should have been more, but every time I tossed a gernade into a school classroom they counted it as one kill! Facist bastards!


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## Ringel05

CrimsonWhite said:


> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrimsonWhite said:
> 
> 
> 
> but the fact that the bolt handle is straight tells you that it isn't German. Could Yugo, Chech, or Turkish.
> 
> 
> 
> The early German rifles had straight bolts...could easily be a WWI-mechanism bolted onto a WWII-stock during the final desperate months of the war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could be, but the Turks made K98k's with straight bolt handles. That action looks like a K98k to me.
Click to expand...


Definitely not a Kar.  The Receiver housing is too large and the stock is standard K98 German.  That's a gewehr/k98 match up, I just wish I could see the markings clearly to be more than 99.8% positive.


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## strollingbones

okay okay markings it has some....i will have to drag it back out....the men were guessing at what it was....they couldnt get the bolt to close....and were all like monkeys ....looking at the moon....i closed it..with little or no trouble by simply pushing the bottom plate down....they were amazed...like monkeys looking at a goddess...*hey its my mother fucking reality, not yours*

the other guns i could id fast..this one...i am stumped...not being a gun expert and all...we are having some trouble with the 22 auto...it keeps jamming...son thinks it has to do with how hard you pull bolt back...and all...i say no...its simply jamming....and needs to be looked at

so guys...what kinda bullets can we slap into this unknown gun and try to kill ourselves with?


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## strollingbones

Mr. H. said:


> How's about some photos with the bolt open? Or is it stuck?



it is not stuck


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## strollingbones

my next door neighbor who has helped with my mother....i gave my father's old fishing equipment....i handed him the rod and reel and he goes nuts....i still have no clue what i gave him....

my son has moved in like a toad....and claimed all the guns...i told him to stop being an ass...he replied he didnt mean to be.....i told him to stop acting like a toad....(that is about the worst thing i say) and he said he was sorry but he is  keeping all the guns.  i told him the single shot had been mine since i was 12, he replied...that i fire high now....that my eyes are gone.......i may kill that little toad...i remind him...dble 00 loaded in a dble barrel...i dont have to see mal


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## strollingbones

Ringel05 said:


> CrimsonWhite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> The early German rifles had straight bolts...could easily be a WWI-mechanism bolted onto a WWII-stock during the final desperate months of the war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could be, but the Turks made K98k's with straight bolt handles. That action looks like a K98k to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Definitely not a Kar.  The Receiver housing is too large and the stock is standard K98 German.  That's a gewehr/k98 match up, I just wish I could see the markings clearly to be more than 99.8% positive.
Click to expand...


okay okay i will drag that bitch out...and see if i can read the markings....or take a better photo..its hard to photo the markings.....and this mother is heavy did i mention that..heavy....some one made the comment ...to help with the kick...


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## strollingbones

marked with :   dou  43






see the bottom plate and how it pops up?  son continues to say the bullet weight would push the plate down.






i think it says....4-592 with some type of stamp before it..looks like a V






stamped on the small bar to the right....:  mod 98






yes the damn thing opens....

another stamp...i have forgotten where but i think near the bolt....is: 30-78

on the bolt....stamped with:  15


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## strollingbones

sooooo what says yall?  and crimson, my sweet love, a german ww 2...does predate the ak 47...heheheee....i dont knowz mal i tellz ya


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## strollingbones

hmmm why is the v not looking like a v...but a symbol...


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## Mr. H.

Check out the grain in that wood. It's gorgeous.


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## strollingbones

okay this is what i know about the history of the gun...it arrived to the house in a film projector thing....it was the only foreign gun my father kept...the rest where his vintage hunting guns...i dont know why he got it..or why he kept it...or what it is...i have always assumed it was the russian gun....none of the rest are russian...but i never can remember who called it that....

i grew up in a home where you were never a step away from a gun of one type or another...i was in my early 20's when i realized that was not the norm...


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## Mr. H.

My dad kept some dandy guns and I've got the only one that survived over the years. 

I remember a similar looking rifle where the breech popped up when you pulled back the bolt. Mom moved after he died and the fuckers ripped it off. 

My brother got his other guns and either sold them, gave them away, or destroyed them. Sad. 

Nice family history there, stromboli.


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## Ringel05

On the receiver housing in front of the numbers (with the hh underneath) is what's left of a Waffenmark (Eagle and swastika) that someone tried to obliterate.  In front of that on the base of the barrel is a small German eagle waffenmark.  if you look on the stock you'll find similar markings, if they havent been erased.  That is almost assuredly a Volksrum issued weapon.


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## strollingbones

is that all you got ring?  come on now?  you can do better....ww 2, right?  so it is not a turkish gun 

but is really german.....any other pics needed...


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## Ringel05

strollingbones said:


> is that all you got ring?  come on now?  you can do better....ww 2, right?  so it is not a turkish gun
> 
> but is really german.....any other pics needed...



By the pictures you provided it does not appear to be Turkish.  Two dead giveaways are the cut in the stock for a sling and the obvious shape of the 'erased' Nazi waffenmark as well as what looks to be the early German eagle waffenmark on the barrel.  Turkish Kars did not have any of the above items. 
It is a WWI barrel and receiver/bolt fitted in a WWII K98 stock.  My best educated guess is it was issued to a Volkstrum unit in the last weeks of WWII.  If it came to your father via Russia then it was 'liberated' buy a Russian soldier then probably traded or sold to a GI some time after the war and before the start of the cold war.


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## strollingbones

no no he got the gun in vietnam..that is the only thing we are sure of...my father was there during tet

he did two tours...i am not sure which tour he was doing when he mailed this back.

the russian weapon is a misnomer...i have always heard it called that but i am not sure why or who called it that...my father knew more about guns...i just find it interesting that he kept this piece....

now riddle me this...can it be fired?


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## Ringel05

strollingbones said:


> no no he got the gun in vietnam..that is the only thing we are sure of...my father was there during tet
> 
> he did two tours...i am not sure which tour he was doing when he mailed this back.
> 
> the russian weapon is a misnomer...i have always heard it called that but i am not sure why or who called it that...my father knew more about guns...i just find it interesting that he kept this piece....
> 
> now riddle me this...can it be fired?



Aha!  Russian capture during WWII then years later it was part of a weapons supply to the VC or NVA.  That explains the Russian connection.
Can it be fired?  I don't see why not, with a good cleaning and the proper ammo, though you might want to take it to a gun smith and have him/her check it out first.  Just as an added precaution.


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## strollingbones

i am amazed what good condition all the guns were in...they had been oiled and stored...no rust...

ahhh if we were loading it...we would be putting in...what? lol

i would have a smith check it out...but they are worse than magpies...much easier to get the bullets...and go...."boys, i think this bitch can be fired" and let nature take its course lol


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## strollingbones

course they blow my gun up and i am gonna be pissed....son aint giving any of them up it does seem


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## Ringel05

strollingbones said:


> i am amazed what good condition all the guns were in...they had been oiled and stored...no rust...
> 
> ahhh if we were loading it...we would be putting in...what? lol
> 
> i would have a smith check it out...but they are worse than magpies...much easier to get the bullets...and go...."boys, i think this bitch can be fired" and let nature take its course lol



7.9x57 Mauser rounds, commonly referred to as 8 millimeter Mauser.  Here is a link to one site that has it in brass/non-corrosive made by Wolf.  
Wolf 8mm Mauser (8x57mm) 196gr SPBT Rifle Ammunition


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## eagleseven

I would fire the thing at arms length...volksturm weaponry was as dangerous to the poor users, as the enemy.

Then again, I'm a touch bit paranoid at times...


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## CrimsonWhite

Ringel05 said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> is that all you got ring?  come on now?  you can do better....ww 2, right?  so it is not a turkish gun
> 
> but is really german.....any other pics needed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the pictures you provided it does not appear to be Turkish.  Two dead giveaways are the cut in the stock for a sling and the obvious shape of the 'erased' Nazi waffenmark as well as what looks to be the early German eagle waffenmark on the barrel.  Turkish Kars did not have any of the above items.
> It is a WWI barrel and receiver/bolt fitted in a WWII K98 stock.  My best educated guess is it was issued to a Volkstrum unit in the last weeks of WWII.  If it came to your father via Russia then it was 'liberated' buy a Russian soldier then probably traded or sold to a GI some time after the war and before the start of the cold war.
Click to expand...


After seeing the markings, I concur.


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## Gunny

strollingbones said:


> this thing is totally jury rigged to our standards...with the bolt pulled back the bottom plate jumps up...we figure the weight of the bullet pushed it down....anyho..thats about it...and there are of course pictures.  which are loading....do you see the grass?  remember when i was all about hiring the kid for 7 bucks an hour...welll that is what y ou get



That's a knock-off Mauser '98.  The Springfield '03 is a knock off of the Mauser as well.

The prototype AK-47 was the German MP-42.  It was "the" original assault rifle upon which most modern assault rifles are based.


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## strollingbones

i will tell kidlet all we have discovered....i have a friend who is a collector...i will get him to referr a gun smith that doesnt gossip...

i have to buy a gun safe now....i told the kidlet since they are his...he cant have them till he has a gun safe..so he said i can keep them till he gets one....knowing damned well i will need one


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## strollingbones

what do you mean "knock off"


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## strollingbones

okay told kidlet that there may be a swakita under heel.....of course we had to find out....nothing...


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## Ringel05

strollingbones said:


> what do you mean "knock off"



A "knock off" is a copy.  Not in this case, yours is not a knock off.


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## Ringel05

strollingbones said:


> okay told kidlet that there may be a swakita under heel.....of course we had to find out....nothing...



Anything with a swastika would have been removed, especially by the Russians.  If you can locate the serial number it should be on the barrel, receiver, bolt and even on the firing pin.  If you take the stock off and look where the barrel/receiver sits there should be a serial number there also, it may or may not be the same.


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## westwall

First off the rifle is a K98k which stands for Karabiner 98 kurz.  Which means it is a Model 1898 rifle (gewher) that was then shortened to the new standard (as of 1933 I think but I could be off by a couple of years) making it the kurz (short) model of th rifle.  Additionally it was manufactured by ce which is the WWII code for J.P. Sauer & Sohn Gewehrfabrik of Suhl which came into use in 1940.  It has a replacement straight bolt that came from an earlier rifle in all probability, though it could also conceivably be from a Turkish or Czech, or Polish rifle as well.  They all used straight bolts in preferance to the bent bolts.

Secondly the Russians left the nazi markings on them for the most part.  They had quite lieterally millions of them and they refinished them but for the most part left the markings alone.  The Israelis ended up with a bunch of them and they were used to equip the Haganah and up till about 1950 they still had the nazi marks on them as well.  The markings were almost all removed by the end of 1950 and when the rifles were rebarreled to 7.62X51NATO in 1955 all remaining marks were removed.

Serial numbers were on all major assemblies of the rifle but were not on the firing pin or extractors as those parts would break and have to be replaced on a not infrequent basis.  But all the screws on the early manufactured rifles, all the barrel bands etc. would be marked with the last two digits of the serial number.


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## PatekPhilippe

uscitizen said:


> But the bolt handle is straight.  MIne is too but the stock still has the cutout for a bent bolt.



That's called a patrol bolt usc...the reason for bending the bolt down was so when the weapon was carried at the ready the bolt wouldn't get snagged at an inopportune time and eject a live round thus rendering your weapon useless until you closed the bolt and chambered another round.

Also the "pre AK-47" title of this thread would have been more appropriate if the weapon shown was the STG-44...the very first assault rifle on the planet earth and actually affected the outcome of several battles between the German Army and the Soviet Army invading Berlin....but not the eventual outcome.  An awesome weapon indeed...and I've had the pleasure of holding one in my hands which was owned by a SoCal gun dealer.


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## strollingbones

PatekPhilippe said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the bolt handle is straight.  MIne is too but the stock still has the cutout for a bent bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's called a patrol bolt usc...the reason for bending the bolt down was so when the weapon was carried at the ready the bolt wouldn't get snagged at an inopportune time and eject a live round thus rendering your weapon useless until you closed the bolt and chambered another round.
> 
> *Also the "pre AK-47" title of this thread would have been more appropriate if the weapon shown was the STG-44...the very first assault rifle on the planet earth and actually *affected the outcome of several battles between the German Army and the Soviet Army invading Berlin....but not the eventual outcome.  An awesome weapon indeed...and I've had the pleasure of holding one in my hands which was owned by a SoCal gun dealer.
Click to expand...


okay next thread title on guns will simply be....what the fuck?  happy now lol


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## PatekPhilippe

strollingbones said:


> PatekPhilippe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the bolt handle is straight.  MIne is too but the stock still has the cutout for a bent bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's called a patrol bolt usc...the reason for bending the bolt down was so when the weapon was carried at the ready the bolt wouldn't get snagged at an inopportune time and eject a live round thus rendering your weapon useless until you closed the bolt and chambered another round.
> 
> *Also the "pre AK-47" title of this thread would have been more appropriate if the weapon shown was the STG-44...the very first assault rifle on the planet earth and actually *affected the outcome of several battles between the German Army and the Soviet Army invading Berlin....but not the eventual outcome.  An awesome weapon indeed...and I've had the pleasure of holding one in my hands which was owned by a SoCal gun dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> okay next thread title on guns will simply be....what the fuck?  happy now lol
Click to expand...


Hey c'mon now....I was only making a gun nut observation .... no offense was intended...


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## strollingbones

o no offense taken.....you should know better....it has been amazing all the imput i have recieved...hell i need to go home and find more stuff....my next goal is to find the coins....there should be two german beer steins full of coins....i cant find them...i am hoping they are in safe deposit boxes...i think that is where i last saw them...the steins full of coins were just placed in safe deposit boxes...

i assure you ...you never want to have to 'close' a home.  its just plain tough work....you have this finds but mostly its just sad..do the memories hit the shredder or what?  over and over...what do you keep of someone's life?


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## PatekPhilippe

strollingbones said:


> o no offense taken.....you should know better....it has been amazing all the imput i have recieved...hell i need to go home and find more stuff....my next goal is to find the coins....there should be two german beer steins full of coins....i cant find them...i am hoping they are in safe deposit boxes...i think that is where i last saw them...the steins full of coins were just placed in safe deposit boxes...
> 
> i assure you ...you never want to have to 'close' a home.  its just plain tough work....you have this finds but mostly its just sad..do the memories hit the shredder or what?  over and over...what do you keep of someone's life?



I have a rather extensive collection of American coins dating from the early 1800's to the present and I'm a member of the American Numismatic Association.  You keep what is important to your family history and sentimental stuff....


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## strollingbones

you know i lied...i did keep something when my father died....a turtle ashtray....its medal...a turtle but where the shell would be is indented for the ashes...he had it in vietnam....i knew with my father dying of lung cancer and all....plus heart problems...that mom would toss it...my father carried the stupid thing for 2 tours...its sitting here next to the keyboard...

how do you render memories.....its amazing....i was gonna just take a few pics off the wall...da man is telling me...take only what you cant live without....i took all the family pics that were framed and hanging....i will go back and get the rest soon...


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## Ringel05

strollingbones said:


> you know i lied...i did keep something when my father died....a turtle ashtray....its medal...a turtle but where the shell would be is indented for the ashes...he had it in vietnam....i knew with my father dying of lung cancer and all....plus heart problems...that mom would toss it...my father carried the stupid thing for 2 tours...its sitting here next to the keyboard...
> 
> how do you render memories.....its amazing....i was gonna just take a few pics off the wall...da man is telling me...take only what you cant live without....i took all the family pics that were framed and hanging....i will go back and get the rest soon...



I remember those.  If he took it with him on two tours then it was probably his "good luck" charm.


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## Baruch Menachem

I have two boxes of photographs in the back room.   I got tired of scanning them.   But I spent weeks doing it back in the day.    My dad loved taking scenery pictures, but I have no references for any of them.

Also the slides.    Hundreds of slides.   Sometimes you have to go through 30 boxes to find one that has good stuff on it.    But that one box you don't want to miss.

And we go weird when we get elderly.   And secretive.   you have to go through everything because they hide cash.


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## strollingbones

o the hide cash thing...so far no cash has been found....we did find a hustler between the boxsprings and mattress...and no we dont even wanna go there...

but i know she hid cash and i think i know where....but so far...empty handed...i have to go back...i dread it so much...but its a trip i have to make...i can only stand being there for a few hours....alt is saying she will go with me and help pack....just pack...and start getting it together...

the front walk in will be the big mystery...it just is stacked to the ceiling...i pulled the ammo case out of the stack and nothing moved....the hole is still there...so are the 100 or so sets of salt/pepper shakers.....3 sets of china....1 tea set...but i need to start packing it up...she is never returning to that house...now where the hell am i gonna put all this stuff...the son refuses to take much...he wants to travel light...possesion make that hard to do....


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## westwall

PatekPhilippe said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the bolt handle is straight.  MIne is too but the stock still has the cutout for a bent bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's called a patrol bolt usc...the reason for bending the bolt down was so when the weapon was carried at the ready the bolt wouldn't get snagged at an inopportune time and eject a live round thus rendering your weapon useless until you closed the bolt and chambered another round.
> 
> Also the "pre AK-47" title of this thread would have been more appropriate if the weapon shown was the STG-44...the very first assault rifle on the planet earth and actually affected the outcome of several battles between the German Army and the Soviet Army invading Berlin....but not the eventual outcome.  An awesome weapon indeed...and I've had the pleasure of holding one in my hands which was owned by a SoCal gun dealer.
Click to expand...





OK, I am going to be a little bit of a dickhead but I must in the interest of factual data  and correct you on one thing, the STG 44 was not the first assault rifle on the planet.  The MKb42 was the first assault rifle.  It was made by two different manufacturers hence the terminology of MKb42(W) for Walther and MKb42(H) for Haenel.  They were slightly different in design and the OKW sent both examples (approximately 7,800 of each) to the Eastern Front in 1942 for field trials.  Based on those experiences the Haenel design won and it's modified form took on the name MP43.  It was subsequently modified into the MP44 (of which I used to own two) and finally after Hitler had heard so much about this new machine pistol (which the developers had had to call it because Hitler had told them to discontinue its development) he gave it the name Sturmgeweher (assault rifle) and the rest as they say is history.  Pictured below is the MKb42(W) from page 515 of Small Arms of the World.


----------



## Baruch Menachem

My sister and I tried to save as much as we could, but I am in a tiny apartment now, and she has a small house.

Just the books were a huge chore.   My folks had lots of them.   Each of us got encyclopedias  when we got to be 12.   And they saved all of them.

They were members of two books clubs for years and years.   And book club books are just considered trash by everyone.   Even goodwill hates them.  leafing through them and packing them off was a killer chore.


----------



## Ringel05

westwall said:


> PatekPhilippe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the bolt handle is straight.  MIne is too but the stock still has the cutout for a bent bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's called a patrol bolt usc...the reason for bending the bolt down was so when the weapon was carried at the ready the bolt wouldn't get snagged at an inopportune time and eject a live round thus rendering your weapon useless until you closed the bolt and chambered another round.
> 
> Also the "pre AK-47" title of this thread would have been more appropriate if the weapon shown was the STG-44...the very first assault rifle on the planet earth and actually affected the outcome of several battles between the German Army and the Soviet Army invading Berlin....but not the eventual outcome.  An awesome weapon indeed...and I've had the pleasure of holding one in my hands which was owned by a SoCal gun dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I am going to be a little bit of a dickhead but I must in the interest of factual data  and correct you on one thing, the STG 44 was not the first assault rifle on the planet.  The MKb42 was the first assault rifle.  It was made by two different manufacturers hence the terminology of MKb42(W) for Walther and MKb42(H) for Haenel.  They were slightly different in design and the OKW sent both examples (approximately 7,800 of each) to the Eastern Front in 1942 for field trials.  Based on those experiences the Haenel design won and it's modified form took on the name MP43.  It was subsequently modified into the MP44 (of which I used to own two) and finally after Hitler had heard so much about this new machine pistol (which the developers had had to call it because Hitler had told them to discontinue its development) he gave it the name Sturmgeweher (assault rifle) and the rest as they say is history.  Pictured below is the MKb42(W) from page 515 of Small Arms of the World.
Click to expand...


I have reproduction WWII, Civil War and colonial uniforms.  Do you count buttons and stitches also?


----------



## westwall

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PatekPhilippe said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's called a patrol bolt usc...the reason for bending the bolt down was so when the weapon was carried at the ready the bolt wouldn't get snagged at an inopportune time and eject a live round thus rendering your weapon useless until you closed the bolt and chambered another round.
> 
> Also the "pre AK-47" title of this thread would have been more appropriate if the weapon shown was the STG-44...the very first assault rifle on the planet earth and actually affected the outcome of several battles between the German Army and the Soviet Army invading Berlin....but not the eventual outcome.  An awesome weapon indeed...and I've had the pleasure of holding one in my hands which was owned by a SoCal gun dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I am going to be a little bit of a dickhead but I must in the interest of factual data  and correct you on one thing, the STG 44 was not the first assault rifle on the planet.  The MKb42 was the first assault rifle.  It was made by two different manufacturers hence the terminology of MKb42(W) for Walther and MKb42(H) for Haenel.  They were slightly different in design and the OKW sent both examples (approximately 7,800 of each) to the Eastern Front in 1942 for field trials.  Based on those experiences the Haenel design won and it's modified form took on the name MP43.  It was subsequently modified into the MP44 (of which I used to own two) and finally after Hitler had heard so much about this new machine pistol (which the developers had had to call it because Hitler had told them to discontinue its development) he gave it the name Sturmgeweher (assault rifle) and the rest as they say is history.  Pictured below is the MKb42(W) from page 515 of Small Arms of the World.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have reproduction WWII, Civil War and colonial uniforms.  Do you count buttons and stitches also?
Click to expand...





Nope, but the comment wasn't entirely accurate so I had to set that part straight and give a little history to back up what I was saying as well.  Do you favor incorrect data?


----------



## Ringel05

westwall said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I am going to be a little bit of a dickhead but I must in the interest of factual data  and correct you on one thing, the STG 44 was not the first assault rifle on the planet.  The MKb42 was the first assault rifle.  It was made by two different manufacturers hence the terminology of MKb42(W) for Walther and MKb42(H) for Haenel.  They were slightly different in design and the OKW sent both examples (approximately 7,800 of each) to the Eastern Front in 1942 for field trials.  Based on those experiences the Haenel design won and it's modified form took on the name MP43.  It was subsequently modified into the MP44 (of which I used to own two) and finally after Hitler had heard so much about this new machine pistol (which the developers had had to call it because Hitler had told them to discontinue its development) he gave it the name Sturmgeweher (assault rifle) and the rest as they say is history.  Pictured below is the MKb42(W) from page 515 of Small Arms of the World.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have reproduction WWII, Civil War and colonial uniforms.  Do you count buttons and stitches also?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the comment wasn't entirely accurate so I had to set that part straight and give a little history to back up what I was saying as well.  Do you favor incorrect data?
Click to expand...


I know where you are coming from and thanks for the info but most people could give a damn.  It's like the term decimate, most believe it means to almost totally destroy yet it really means to reduce by 10%.  It's the same with here because most have heard, and for all practical purposes (notice the last two words) the STg 44 (not MP44 to be exact) is the quintessential grandfather of all assault rifles.  I was the first massed produced firearm of it's type which is the criteria used to determine such classifications.


----------



## westwall

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have reproduction WWII, Civil War and colonial uniforms.  Do you count buttons and stitches also?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the comment wasn't entirely accurate so I had to set that part straight and give a little history to back up what I was saying as well.  Do you favor incorrect data?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know where you are coming from and thanks for the info but most people could give a damn.  It's like the term decimate, most believe it means to almost totally destroy yet it really means to reduce by 10%.  It's the same with here because most have heard, and for all practical purposes (notice the last two words) the STg 44 (not MP44 to be exact) is the quintessential grandfather of all assault rifles.  I was the first massed produced firearm of it's type which is the criteria used to determine such classifications.
Click to expand...





I don't remember the actual production figures but there are more MP44s than there are StG44s (and yes they are exactly the same weapon except for the markings) Something like 450,000 MP43s, MP44s and StG44s were made with the majority being marked MP44.  And I figured there might be some who actually would like to know about the history of the worlds first assault rifle.


----------



## Ringel05

westwall said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, but the comment wasn't entirely accurate so I had to set that part straight and give a little history to back up what I was saying as well.  Do you favor incorrect data?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know where you are coming from and thanks for the info but most people could give a damn.  It's like the term decimate, most believe it means to almost totally destroy yet it really means to reduce by 10%.  It's the same with here because most have heard, and for all practical purposes (notice the last two words) the STg 44 (not MP44 to be exact) is the quintessential grandfather of all assault rifles.  I was the first massed produced firearm of it's type which is the criteria used to determine such classifications.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the actual production figures but there are more MP44s than there are StG44s (and yes they are exactly the same weapon except for the markings) Something like 450,000 MP43s, MP44s and StG44s were made with the majority being marked MP44.  And I figured there might be some who actually would like to know about the history of the worlds first assault rifle.
Click to expand...


No problem.
BTW, Bone's Mauser is a hybrid, not a K98.  The stock is K98 the metal is G98.  The Russians and other eastern pact countries did it all the time and sold/gave them away to countries like North Vietnam.


----------



## westwall

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know where you are coming from and thanks for the info but most people could give a damn.  It's like the term decimate, most believe it means to almost totally destroy yet it really means to reduce by 10%.  It's the same with here because most have heard, and for all practical purposes (notice the last two words) the STg 44 (not MP44 to be exact) is the quintessential grandfather of all assault rifles.  I was the first massed produced firearm of it's type which is the criteria used to determine such classifications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the actual production figures but there are more MP44s than there are StG44s (and yes they are exactly the same weapon except for the markings) Something like 450,000 MP43s, MP44s and StG44s were made with the majority being marked MP44.  And I figured there might be some who actually would like to know about the history of the worlds first assault rifle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No problem.
> BTW, Bone's Mauser is a hybrid, not a K98.  The stock is K98 the metal is G98.  The Russians and other eastern pact countries did it all the time and sold/gave them away to countries like North Vietnam.
Click to expand...




I would have to see better pics before I made that particular observation.  Most of the rifles like this were imported by Sarco and Southern Ohio Gun as well as Interarms over the last 15 years or so.  A friend of mine got to go through 10,000 of them from SOG a few years ago.


----------



## PatekPhilippe

westwall said:


> PatekPhilippe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the bolt handle is straight.  MIne is too but the stock still has the cutout for a bent bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's called a patrol bolt usc...the reason for bending the bolt down was so when the weapon was carried at the ready the bolt wouldn't get snagged at an inopportune time and eject a live round thus rendering your weapon useless until you closed the bolt and chambered another round.
> 
> Also the "pre AK-47" title of this thread would have been more appropriate if the weapon shown was the STG-44...the very first assault rifle on the planet earth and actually affected the outcome of several battles between the German Army and the Soviet Army invading Berlin....but not the eventual outcome.  An awesome weapon indeed...and I've had the pleasure of holding one in my hands which was owned by a SoCal gun dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I am going to be a little bit of a dickhead but I must in the interest of factual data  and correct you on one thing, the STG 44 was not the first assault rifle on the planet.  The MKb42 was the first assault rifle.  It was made by two different manufacturers hence the terminology of MKb42(W) for Walther and MKb42(H) for Haenel.  They were slightly different in design and the OKW sent both examples (approximately 7,800 of each) to the Eastern Front in 1942 for field trials.  Based on those experiences the Haenel design won and it's modified form took on the name MP43.  It was subsequently modified into the MP44 (of which I used to own two) and finally after Hitler had heard so much about this new machine pistol (which the developers had had to call it because Hitler had told them to discontinue its development) he gave it the name Sturmgeweher (assault rifle) and the rest as they say is history.  Pictured below is the MKb42(W) from page 515 of Small Arms of the World.
Click to expand...


I knew there were prototypes out there of this weapon.  Thanks.  As stated this variant became the excepted form of the weapon regardless of markings or splitting hairs over model numbers.....


----------



## strollingbones

Baruch Menachem said:


> My sister and I tried to save as much as we could, but I am in a tiny apartment now, and she has a small house.
> 
> Just the books were a huge chore.   My folks had lots of them.   Each of us got encyclopedias  when we got to be 12.   And they saved all of them.
> 
> They were members of two books clubs for years and years.   And book club books are just considered trash by everyone.   Even goodwill hates them.  leafing through them and packing them off was a killer chore.



i use to hoard books...a friend of mine could read 2 to 3 books a day...and did...and kept them all..when he died...it was just a mess...when open a huge ass room stacked with books...we sold them a dollar a large grocery bag full and didnt make a dent in the stacks...

you are right...books become a curse...no one wants them...its too much to transport them to sell them for nothing.  book dealers would not take them..we had no master list saying what was there...and it would have taken weeks to sort and separate.

so now i keep a donation basket and when i finish a book ...it goes in there..when the basket is full...i put other things in there too...off we go to claws and paws to donate


----------



## strollingbones

better pics?  is that remark aimed at me....o make me the target for you bows and arrows.

okay what do you want to see....and how do you want better pics...hell i got nothing better to do...than take more pics....plus i would love to see yall settle this...

so give me a list of what you want and i will supply it....

make the list clear however....where to find the numbers etc...

how you want the pics...what you want more pics of


----------



## Ringel05

westwall said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the actual production figures but there are more MP44s than there are StG44s (and yes they are exactly the same weapon except for the markings) Something like 450,000 MP43s, MP44s and StG44s were made with the majority being marked MP44.  And I figured there might be some who actually would like to know about the history of the worlds first assault rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No problem.
> BTW, Bone's Mauser is a hybrid, not a K98.  The stock is K98 the metal is G98.  The Russians and other eastern pact countries did it all the time and sold/gave them away to countries like North Vietnam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to see better pics before I made that particular observation.  Most of the rifles like this were imported by Sarco and Southern Ohio Gun as well as Interarms over the last 15 years or so.  A friend of mine got to go through 10,000 of them from SOG a few years ago.
Click to expand...


She provided the closeups.  On the chamber housing is an obvious peened out Nazi Waffenstamp, at the base of the barrel is an obvious Kaiser era eagle (where it should be).  There are many other clues like the roller coaster sight and length plus a couple of friends are collectors with exactly the same piece and have confirmed it is a hybrid build probably done by the Russians or one of their allies.  If it was done by the Germans then the WWI sight would have been replaced with the K98 sight.


----------



## strollingbones

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No problem.
> BTW, Bone's Mauser is a hybrid, not a K98.  The stock is K98 the metal is G98.  The Russians and other eastern pact countries did it all the time and sold/gave them away to countries like North Vietnam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to see better pics before I made that particular observation.  Most of the rifles like this were imported by Sarco and Southern Ohio Gun as well as Interarms over the last 15 years or so.  A friend of mine got to go through 10,000 of them from SOG a few years ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She provided the closeups.  On the chamber housing is an obvious peened out Nazi Waffenstamp, at the base of the barrel is an obvious Kaiser era eagle (where it should be).  There are many other clues like the roller coaster sight and length plus a couple of friends are collectors with exactly the same piece and have confirmed it is a hybrid build probably done by the Russians or one of their allies.  If it was done by the Germans then the WWI sight would have been replaced with the K98 sight.
Click to expand...


ring has been researching  on this since i posted the thread.  he has seen all the markings....the photos you have seen.   I really cant think of anything else to photo.  So far anything ring has told me...has checked slam out....

given the little known history of the rifle...i figure that my father got it after tet... that is all i can really remember about it...


----------

