# I am applying for a license to carry



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 13, 2021)

At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.

Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.

Thank you


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## playtime (Oct 13, 2021)

here's some advise:

don't shoot yer eye out.


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## night_son (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...



If you plan to everyday carry a sidearm for self-defense purchase a high-quality retention holster, practice drawing your weapon from it, and never carry on an empty chamber. The time it takes to work the slide when you most need to defend yourself will get you killed. Good luck.


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## Slade3200 (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


aim for the balls... and get a safe


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)




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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


You'll need a t-shirt.


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## Slade3200 (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> You'll need a t-shirt.


Is that  gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

Its a gun....


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## FJB (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> here's some advise:
> 
> don't shoot yer eye out.





Here's some better advice, don't use a Red Ryder BB gun for a means of protection LOL


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## Gabe Lackmann (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...




If you get approved go to a range and shoot the thing. 

Run some rounds through it, get real comfortable. 

Don't just take the class, qualify with the rest of em and then forget it.

You and that weapon need to be friends.

So if you have to pull it out you don't handle it like it's a pound of cat shit.


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## playtime (Oct 13, 2021)

The Doctor's Wife said:


> Here's some better advice, don't use a Red Ryder BB gun for a means of protection LOL



gotta say - BBs are great at taking care of tree rats aka squirrels.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


Good luck, i have been carrying now for quite a while and still have yet to have to draw my weapon in self defense.  But if you do, make sure you follow this one truth.

Dead men tell no tales.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> here's some advise:
> 
> don't shoot yer eye out.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> gotta say - BBs are great at taking care of tree rats aka squirrels.


I have just the thing for tree squirrels.


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## Slade3200 (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> gotta say - BBs are great at taking care of tree rats aka squirrels.


I don't know what kind of pussy squirrels live in your hood but the ones by my place will catch your bbs in their teeth and then laugh at you... Need a pellet gun or a 22 to take them down over here


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## FJB (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> gotta say - BBs are great at taking care of tree rats aka squirrels.





True, good point and it's sort of nice not to be at virtual war with you for once lol


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## playtime (Oct 13, 2021)

Slade3200 said:


> I don't know what kind of pussy squirrels live in your hood but the ones by my place will catch your bbs in their teeth and then laugh at you... Need a pellet gun or a 22 to take them down over here



guess i'm a good shot.  if they are on my deck or at my feeders , then all bets are off.  i can get 6 shots off at a time.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


In all seriousness, go to a gun store and handle every sidearm you are considering then handle all the rest, find out which fits you best.  Don't buy any sidearm because someone else likes it or because tens of thousands like it.  Example: Glocks are great guns, old tech in this day and age but well made and extremely reliable.  I will never own one because it feels like I'm holding on to a 2x4 with a barrel attached to it.
Don't just commit safety and legal to memory make them part of your DNA..........  Once you have the sidearm you want practice, practice, practice then practice some more and remember the most important safety feature of any firearm is the one between our ears.........


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## playtime (Oct 13, 2021)

The Doctor's Wife said:


> True, good point and it's sort of nice not to be at virtual war with you for once lol



i told you that i will always give you factual truths because i don't tolerate willful ignorance.  & when it's not the time... it's not the time. 
 like now,


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## Slade3200 (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> guess i'm a good shot.  if they are on my deck or at my feeders , then all bets are off.  i can get 6 shots off at a time.


I put 7 bbs in a squirrel I had trapped in a cage at point blank and it hardly made a dent.  California ground squirrels must be made tougher than your tree rats


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## JGalt (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...



Spend good money on a holster. Don't get one of those cheap Blackhawk nylon or Kydex holsters from Walmart. I have a small bin full of holsters I tried but didn't care for, so find the one that works the best for you. Serpa holsters that have a button release retention system will keep your pistol secure in the holster, but can malfunction if you end up rolling around in the dirt with someone. Most decent holsters with have either active retention like a strap with a snap on it. Or they'll have passive retention, relying on the tightness of the holster to keep the pistol in place.

Avoid wearing a holster that has the pistol pointed toward your groin or inner leg. Otherwise if you accidentally hit your femoral artery, you'll bleed out pretty quick. I prefer an inside waistband leather holster worn at 3 o'clock on my belt, that angles the grip forward a little, and points the muzzle down behind me. Milt Sparks makes a good one, or Bianci, or DeSantis. There are a lot of good holsters out there and you can pay up to a couple hundred dollars. Also remember that an accidental can easily happen when you're inserting a pistol into the holster while you're wearing it. If you take it out of the holster and are putting it back in, always make sure you don't get your shirt tail or jacket caught in the trigger guard.

Spare magazines are a necessity too. I wear two of them in a Kydex carrier on the left hip. And you might as well get used to carrying a small tactical flashlight with you at night, 300 lumens or so. The ones that use the rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries are the best. And always carry a phone. Not sure what pistol you'll be carrying, but always keep it in condition 0: One in the chamber, full magazine, and the safety if any, off. Glocks are good, because they don't have an external safety, and seconds count if you ever need to use it. And get used to wearing hoodies in cool weather, and large-sized Hawaiian shirts in the summer.

Also if you haven't done this yet, memorize those four rules, and live by them every minute of the day.

That's about all I can add, except for this: You pretty much give up your right to be an asshole when you start carrying. There are a lot of stupid people in this world, and they can piss you off sometimes. So you have to let a lot of shit slide and have nothing to prove. Your weapon it's not a tool for first response, it was meant to be used for last resort.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Any and all advice is welcome.


Don’t buy a Glock – they’re ugly.

Of course, most of the striker-fired plastic pistols are ugly.

The M&P Shield series aren’t too ugly.


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## Natural Citizen (Oct 13, 2021)

night_son said:


> If you plan to everyday carry a sidearm for self-defense purchase a high-quality retention holster, practice drawing your weapon from it, and never carry on an empty chamber. The time it takes to work the slide when you most need to defend yourself will get you killed. Good luck.



Yeah. Good advice. Gun handling is not the same as marksmanship.


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## Muhammed (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> Thank you


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## playtime (Oct 13, 2021)

Slade3200 said:


> I put 7 bbs in a squirrel I had trapped in a cage at point blank and it hardly made a dent.  California ground squirrels must be made tougher than your tree rats



i've had a few like that & i've emptied the clip at times -  but i personally won't handle a 22 or a glock like hubby does.  i can still get the job done though.


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## Otis Mayfield (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...



Get something that's cheap to shoot and then shoot it a lot.

Accuracy trumps everything.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

JGalt said:


> Spend good money on a holster. Don't get one of those cheap Blackhawk nylon or Kydex holsters from Walmart. I have a small bin full of holsters I tried but didn't care for, so find the one that works the best for you. Serpa holsters that have a button release retention system will keep your pistol secure in the holster, but can malfunction if you end up rolling around in the dirt with someone. Most decent holsters with have either active retention like a strap with a snap on it. Or they'll have passive retention, relying on the tightness of the holster to keep the pistol in place.
> 
> Avoid wearing a holster that has the pistol pointed toward your groin or inner leg. Otherwise if you accidentally hit your femoral artery, you'll bleed out pretty quick. I prefer an inside waistband leather holster worn at 3 o'clock on my belt, that angles the grip forward a little, and points the muzzle down behind me. Milt Sparks makes a good one, or Bianci, or DeSantis. There are a lot of good holsters out there and you can pay up to a couple hundred dollars. Also remember that an accidental can easily happen when you're inserting a pistol into the holster while you're wearing it. If you take it out of the holster and are putting it back in, always make sure you don't get your shirt tail or jacket caught in the trigger guard.
> 
> ...


My favorite impromptu IWB holster............


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## marvin martian (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...



Practice!

Also, don't do anything you wouldn't do if you were unarmed, just because you're now armed.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> i've had a few like that & i've emptied the clip at times -  but i personally won't handle a 22 or a glock like hubby does.  i can still get the job done though.


Your BB gun uses clips?


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## whitehall (Oct 13, 2021)

Gabe Lackmann said:


> If you get approved go to a range and shoot the thing.
> 
> Run some rounds through it, get real comfortable.
> 
> ...


I favor a revolver myself. Maybe you only have six or five but usually it only takes one, You don't have to worry about a safety or if a round is chambered. Just point and shoot.


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## Natural Citizen (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.



You'd do well to get yourself a laser pistol to practice with, too. Laser pistols are meant to practice proper gun handling and even target practice.


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## marvin martian (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> Your BB gun uses clips?



She's got something really special, it looks like this:


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## playtime (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> Your BB gun uses clips?



it looks similar to this


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## JGalt (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> Your BB gun uses clips?



5.56 stripper clips with loaders. I have a shitload of those things somewhere in the garage, as well as some for the SKS and 5-rounders for 7.62 NATO.

No idea where I got them and will probably never ever use them.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

JGalt said:


> 5.56 stripper clips with loaders. I have a shitload of those things somewhere in the garage.


Mine are all 8mm mauser.


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## Donald H (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


If you've already made up your mind you probably don't want to know what the real experts say.



			https://vpc.org/publications/unintended-consequences/


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## JGalt (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> Mine are all 8mm mauser.


 Actually I have some of those too. And Carcano, and a couple others I forgot what they go to. Most of my 8mm stash is that Turkish stuff from the '50's. The case necks split a little when you fire them, they're corrosive, but they're hot as hell.


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## JGalt (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If you've already made up your mind you probably don't want to know what the real experts say.
> 
> 
> 
> https://vpc.org/publications/unintended-consequences/



How many of those "real experts" carry a firearm every day? 

Better stay home where it's safe, Bubble Boy.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If you've already made up your mind you probably don't want to know what the real experts say.
> 
> 
> 
> https://vpc.org/publications/unintended-consequences/


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)




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## Innocynioc (Oct 13, 2021)

*I have had a concealed carry permit since I was twenty-two years old.  I am seventy-two now.  I carry regularly, but I have never even once in that fifty years pulled my hand gun and pointed it at anyone.  I still am glad I was packing.  It's insurance.*


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## Votto (Oct 13, 2021)

Slade3200 said:


> aim for the balls... and get a safe


Aim for the balls?


What if they are democrats?


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## JGalt (Oct 13, 2021)

My favorite line is "I'm not compensating. If I could reach out to 50 yards and slap someone upside the head with my dick, I wouldn't need a gun."


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## Slade3200 (Oct 13, 2021)

Votto said:


> Aim for the balls?
> 
> 
> What if they are democrats?


aim lower


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## Donald H (Oct 13, 2021)

Innocynioc said:


> *I have had a concealed carry permit since I was twenty-two years old.  I am seventy-two now.  I carry regularly, but I have never even once in that fifty years pulled my hand gun and pointed it at anyone.  I still am glad I was packing.  It's insurance.*


If you didn't use your gun to protect yourself in 50 years, odds are pretty good that 1/3 of gun owners didn't either. 
You must have imagined you needed your gun for protection if you're being truthful.
Most who carry a gun around are looking for a  chance to use it on somebody.


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## Votto (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If you didn't use your gun to protect yourself in 50 years, odds are pretty good that 1/3 of gun owners didn't either.
> You must have imagined you needed your gun for protection if you're being truthful.
> Most who carry a gun around are looking for a  chance to use it on somebody.


I know I bought an AR 15, but the hard part is how to conceal it.

Usually people just ask, is that an AR 15 in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?

I got to say, more women flirt with me now.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If you didn't use your gun to protect yourself in 50 years, odds are pretty good that 1/3 of gun owners didn't either.
> You must have imagined you needed your gun for protection if you're being truthful.
> *Most who carry a gun around are looking for a  chance to use it on somebody.*


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## JGalt (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If you didn't use your gun to protect yourself in 50 years, odds are pretty good that 1/3 of gun owners didn't either.
> You must have imagined you needed your gun for protection if you're being truthful.
> Most who carry a gun around are looking for a  chance to use it on somebody.


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## lg325 (Oct 13, 2021)

Practice, practice. They have classes on combat training  now if you can take one.


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## Donald H (Oct 13, 2021)

And besides looking to get a chance to use their gun, they're also craving attention. The ones who carry the AR-15's and get dressed up in their camo costumes may not become people shooters but it's a pretty safe bet that some of them will be. 

There's just no way they are thinking of protecting themselves when they seek out a place to stand where they will be seen by the most people. They're clearly anticipating a gun fight! The novelty of shooting small animals and songbirds has worn off and they're looking for some serious action that they've prepared for.


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## AZrailwhale (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> In all seriousness, go to a gun store and handle every sidearm you are considering then handle all the rest, find out which fits you best.  Don't buy any sidearm because someone else likes it or because tens of thousands like it.  Example: Glocks are great guns, old tech in this day and age but well made and extremely reliable.  I will never own one because it feels like I'm holding on to a 2x4 with a barrel attached to it.
> Don't just commit safety and legal to memory make them part of your DNA..........  Once you have the sidearm you want practice, practice, practice then practice some more and remember the most important safety feature of any firearm is the one between our ears.........


I did exactly that decades  ago and bought a gun that I thought was far too small for me.  A S&W 469 9mm.  It turned out to fit my hand perfectly because the grip is so wide back to front.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


After hearing about people accidentally shooting their own family members twice in the last week...

If someone invades your home, #1 priority is to get your family and get out. Go, as fast as you can, and call the police. Don't get your gun and go try to teach someone a lesson. Last resort.

Second: don't keep one in the chamber. Guns are machines with moving parts. They break and malfunction. Things happen, people get startled, animals fuck with shit. Last thing you want is for it to discharge it unexpectedly.

Third, clean often.

Fourth (and this one is just personal preference): Don't be that fucking freak that wears his firearm on his hip everywhere he goes. I have some pretty cool swords. But I don't strap them across my back when I go to the gotdam grocery store like some cosplay dork on my way to a LARPing session. Conceal it, or leave it in the car.

Have fun! Full cans of soda are surprisingly satisfying to shoot. And cheap.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> And besides looking to get a chance to use their gun, they're also craving attention. The ones who carry the AR-15's and get dressed up in their camo costumes may not become people shooters but it's a pretty safe bet that some of them will be.
> 
> There's just no way they are thinking of protecting themselves when they seek out a place to stand where they will be seen by the most people. They're clearly anticipating a gun fight! The novelty of shooting small animals and songbirds has worn off and they're looking for some serious action that they've prepared for.


Here's your song..........


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## Donald H (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> Here's your song..........


It's time for hearing the truth and it's not coming from enough Americans. The fascination with guns, the military, and killing people has turned America's gun violence into epidemic levels. 

The rest of the world is singing the same song.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> It's time for hearing the truth and it's not coming from enough Americans. The fascination with guns, the military, and killing people has turned America's gun violence into epidemic levels.
> 
> The rest of the world is singing the same song.


Take off the blinders.


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## Innocynioc (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H wrote, "Most who carry a gun around are looking for a  chance to use it on somebody."

I respectfully beg to differ.  Having spent half a century with many gun owner friends some of whom also carry I can tell you you are absolutely wrong.


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## Donald H (Oct 13, 2021)

Innocynioc said:


> Donald H wrote, "Most who carry a gun around are looking for a  chance to use it on somebody."
> 
> I respectfully beg to differ.  Having spent half a century with many gun owner friends some of whom also carry I can tell you you are absolutely wrong.


I had tagged you as the exception and so that could be true for your friends. The majority is something quite different and they make claims of having to pull out their guns to defend themselves. 

Let's have an honest discussion on the gun problem in America, finally.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

Donald H said:


> I had tagged you as the exception and so that could be true for your friends. The majority is something quite different and they make claims of having to pull out their guns to defend themselves.
> 
> Let's have an honest discussion on the gun problem in America, finally.


Considering the ludicrous, factless assertions you've already made it would appear there is little likelihood of you're being able to carry on an honest discussion concerning this subject.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 13, 2021)

playtime said:


> guess i'm a good shot.  if they are on my deck or at my feeders , then all bets are off.  i can get 6 shots off at a time.


Takes you 6 shots to get a tree squirrel?


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 13, 2021)

Innocynioc said:


> Donald H wrote, "Most who carry a gun around are looking for a  chance to use it on somebody."
> 
> I respectfully beg to differ.  Having spent half a century with many gun owner friends some of whom also carry I can tell you you are absolutely wrong.


I have the idiot Don on ignore like most of the other 170 or so, but the reason why most Conceal Carry bring a weapon, is that we never have to use it.   But the day that you do need it, and you arent carrying, is the day you become a statistic..


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 13, 2021)

Natural Citizen said:


> Yeah. Good advice. Gun handling is not the same as marksmanship.


Unless of course your weapon is a double action.









						Walther PPS M2 9mm Double Action Compact Pistol 2805961
					

Walther PPS M2 9mm Double Action Compact Pistol 2805961




					www.rkguns.com


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## toobfreak (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Finally biting the bullet



Generally not a good idea.


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## toobfreak (Oct 13, 2021)

Gabe Lackmann said:


> If you get approved go to a range and shoot the thing.



You don't need approval to own a gun or practice at a range.  The 2A gives you that.  The CCW is a permit to let you carry the gun on your person concealed.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

toobfreak said:


> You don't need approval to own a gun or practice at a range.  The 2A gives you that.  The CCW is a permit to let you carry the gun on your person concealed.


I need approval to practice at my range..........  Seventy five bucks a year approval.........


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


Good for you


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


By the way, Honest Outlaw covers what he thinks are the five best guns for under $300.  Granted this was before the toilet paper apocalypse and I know some have gone up in price.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


Have you picked out a holster?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 13, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Have you picked out a holster?


Nothing. I will have an expert shop with me to make sure I make good decisions.


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## Dadoalex (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


Why?
If you never needed it before, why do you need it now?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 13, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Why?
> If you never needed it before, why do you need it now?


Sometimes you have to trust your gut. It’s better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Oct 13, 2021)

Pi


AzogtheDefiler said:


> Nothing. I will have an expert shop with me to make sure I make good decisions.


Pick something you like


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## Otis Mayfield (Oct 13, 2021)

A man with a 22LR pistol who shoots 20 rounds a day cause it's cheap can be pretty fucking deadly with that pistol.

Also, the pistol can be smaller and lighter.

I'm not saying to get a 22LR, but it's something to consider.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Nothing. I will have an expert shop with me to make sure I make good decisions.


Get the sidearm then fit the holster.  Kinda dumb to get a holster for a Smith & Wesson Shield and end up buying a Ruger, Taurus or a Glock.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 13, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> Get the sidearm then fit the holster.  Kinda dumb to get a holster for a Smith & Wesson Shield and end up buying a Ruger, Taurus or a Glock.


Makes sense


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## Polishprince (Oct 13, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...




If you have to go into your major cities, firearms are absolutely required.


----------



## Gabe Lackmann (Oct 14, 2021)

toobfreak said:


> You don't need approval to own a gun or practice at a range.  The 2A gives you that.  The CCW is a permit to let you carry the gun on your person concealed.


You have to apply for a CCW. In some places like NYC, Boston, Shitcongo, it is very difficult, if not impossible to get an application approved.


----------



## playtime (Oct 14, 2021)

andaronjim said:


> Takes you 6 shots to get a tree squirrel?



if i'm up on the deck & it's not.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 14, 2021)

Turned 41 today. I am Old


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 14, 2021)

Gabe Lackmann said:


> You have to apply for a CCW. In some places like NYC, Boston, Shitcongo, it is very difficult, if not impossible to get an application approved.


Correct


----------



## playtime (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Turned 41 today. I am Old



_beats the alternative._


----------



## playtime (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Turned 41 today. I am Old



& happy birthday.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


Watch of the libs on the board..they are probably sending your state ugly letters now talking about how mean you are to them and that you shouldn't be armed because of it.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Turned 41 today. I am Old


Happy Birthday!!!....


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 14, 2021)

Turtlesoup said:


> Watch of the libs on the board..they are probably sending your state ugly letters now talking about how mean you are to them and that you shouldn't be armed because of it.


LOL

they don’t know who I am


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.


1:  Bathroom breaks while carrying:   Use a stall, not a urinal.
2:  If your next action after clearing leather is not to shoot your target until he stops, don't clear leather.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Sometimes you have to trust your gut. It’s better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.


Lots of gun owners with now dead family members thought the same way.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 14, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Lots of gun owners with now dead family members thought the same way.


A lot more...way more...are safe and sound without any issues.

playtime see how deranged leftists think....


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> A lot more...way more...are safe and sound without any issues.
> 
> playtime see how deranged leftists think....


Whatever but data clearly shows your firearm is most likely to kill a family member, friend, neighbor, or work associate.

But, if that's Ok with you, it's fine with me.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 14, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Whatever but data clearly shows your firearm is most likely to kill a family member, friend, neighbor, or work associate.
> 
> But, if that's Ok with you, it's fine with me.


That’s not true. Not remotely. You’re lying.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Oct 14, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> A man with a 22LR pistol who shoots 20 rounds a day cause it's cheap can be pretty fucking deadly with that pistol.
> 
> Also, the pistol can be smaller and lighter.
> 
> I'm not saying to get a 22LR, but it's something to consider.


The smartest thing is to get either two identical pistols, one in .22 and the other in your preferred caliber, or a pistol that is easily converted.  Then you can practice cheaply AND develop the muscle memory of how to use your preferred weapon.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Oct 14, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Whatever but data clearly shows your firearm is most likely to kill a family member, friend, neighbor, or work associate.
> 
> But, if that's Ok with you, it's fine with me.


No the only data that shows that are from two fraudulent studies done by the same person who manipulated the data to fit his preconceived outcome.


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 14, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> No the only data that shows that are from two fraudulent studies done by the same person who manipulated the data to fit his preconceived outcome.


But maybe just keep it in mind anyway. Get yourself a little gun safe, grab it, get your family and get out of the house. If possible. Take it with you. But make getting TFO priority number one.


----------



## badbob85037 (Oct 14, 2021)

You don't show your hand and you don't show your gun. When you do you just gave away every option you had.  But if you carry concealed illegally no one knows you get the freak    and have him missing never to be seen again. Go and search Google for Leaderless Resistance It is what government fears the most.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> That’s not true. Not remotely. You’re lying.


No, I'm not. And you know it.

Give your family my best.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 14, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> No the only data that shows that are from two fraudulent studies done by the same person who manipulated the data to fit his preconceived outcome.


Most gun shot victims are the family, friends, and neighbor of the gun owner.

Simple fact.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 14, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> No, I'm not. And you know it.
> 
> Give your family my best.


Is that a threat? Come get some. Don’t need a gun to deal with you. Name the place and time.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


Many first time concealed carry people want to carry a large weapon. Many end up leaving that weapon at home unless they are going to a dangerous area.

Over time I learned to carry a very light snub nosed .38+P caliber revolver in a pocket holster. If I am going somewhere I just grab the revolver and its holster and slip both into my pants pocket on the way out the door. I don’t have to take the time to stick a holster on my belt or inside my pants. 

My prime carry weapon is a S&W Model 642. This is not a long range target revolver but a close range self defense weapon. Being light it has a nasty recoil and most would say it isn’t much fun to practice with. Plus it is double action only which makes target shooting more difficult than a revolver you can cock and fire single action.





A number of companies make small, light weight semi-auto pistols in .380 or 9mm. Such weapons also often have a stiff recoil but with practice can be mastered. They also can be excellent pants pocket weapons. 


One advantage of carrying a handgun in your pants pocket is that if something looks odd you can always put your hand in your pocket on the firearm ready to pull it if necessary.

Other advise is to take a course on the law involving concealed weapons and self defense in your state. Join a gun range and learn how to shoot. Be polite and respectful and you will find the better shooters at your range will be happy to teach you how to shoot better. Far too many men think watching TV and movies for years has taught them how to shoot which of course is false. Women in general are easier to teach than men as they don’t assume they already are good at shooting.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 14, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> I need approval to practice at my range..........  Seventy five bucks a year approval.........


Sounds reasonable to me.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 14, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Don’t buy a Glock – they’re ugly.
> 
> Of course, most of the striker-fired plastic pistols are ugly.
> 
> The M&P Shield series aren’t too ugly.


Yes, Glocks are ugly but they work well.


----------



## the other mike (Oct 14, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


Always carry knife and a slingshot too for backup.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 15, 2021)

JGalt said:


> How many of those "real experts" carry a firearm every day?
> 
> Better stay home where it's safe, Bubble Boy.


Any “experts” who write for the Violence Policy Center are anti-gun. 









						Know the Opposition: Violence Policy Center
					

One reason the fight to protect our rights has become harder is because of the Violence Policy Center's fearmongering that poses as research.




					www.ammoland.com


----------



## Batcat (Oct 15, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If you've already made up your mind you probably don't want to know what the real experts say.
> 
> 
> 
> https://vpc.org/publications/unintended-consequences/


The Violence Policy Center is anti-gun. It would never publish any thing positive about a civilian legally carrying a firearm in public.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 15, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Why?
> If you never needed it before, why do you need it now?


Have you noticed the rising level of violence in our nation? 

In many cities the police are undermanned and because of riots and protests have turned reactive rather than proactive. You can’t always count on the cops to save your sorry ass so basically you are responsible for protecting yourself and your family.

 Hopefully you will never have to use a weapon for legitimate self defense but it might be better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it.


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 15, 2021)

playtime said:


> here's some advise:
> 
> don't shoot yer eye out.


He's 41 and he needs a gun now. 
Why?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 15, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If you've already made up your mind you probably don't want to know what the real experts say.
> 
> 
> https://vpc.org/publications/unintended-consequences/


The "real experts" say guns are used 10x more often in self-defense than murder, and 5x more often than suicide.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 15, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> He's 41 and he needs a gun now.
> Why?


He probably moved to some Democrat-controlled shithole city.


----------



## Donald H (Oct 15, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> The "real experts" say guns are used 10x more often in self-defense than murder, and 5x more often than suicide.


Besides cowards pulling out their guns to threaten tougher guys, I've found another explanation for why there are self defense claims. Cowards carrying guns are claiming 'self defense' by just carrying their guns down a street at night.


----------



## marvin martian (Oct 15, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> Mine are all 8mm mauser.



I love my 8mm Mauser, it's probably the most accurate rifle I've ever shot. Damn heavy, though.


----------



## marvin martian (Oct 15, 2021)

Donald H said:


> Besides cowards pulling out their guns to threaten tougher guys, I've found another explanation for why there are self defense claims. Cowards carrying guns are claiming 'self defense' by just carrying their guns down a street at night.



Is this the stuff that happens in your homoerotic dreams? Please don't share.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 15, 2021)

Donald H said:


> Besides cowards pulling out their guns to threaten tougher guys,...



Wait...  _you _disagree with what the "real experts" consider self-defense?


----------



## Donald H (Oct 15, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Wait...  _you _disagree with what the "real experts" consider self-defense?


If they agree with that which I suggested then we both should be able to agree that they're not experts. Real self defense has to be something more than just walking down the street with a hidden gun and feeling secure about it.
Likewise, it can't just be a coward pulling a handgun in a tavern because he was threatened by a big black guy. 
We both know what 'self defense' means and you can elaborate on that if you wish. On that we may find some common ground?


----------



## DrLove (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> Thank you



Pretty tough laws in your state Zog. Boston may be even tougher. 









						Concealed Carry in Massachusetts | Giffords
					

Massachusetts requires a permit for the concealed carry of firearms. It is a "may issue" state.




					giffords.org


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 15, 2021)

DrLove said:


> Pretty tough laws in your state Zog. Boston may be even tougher.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Correct


----------



## DrLove (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Correct


When you tell me I'm correct about something I polish it and wear it as a badge for the remainder of the day.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 15, 2021)

DrLove said:


> When you tell me I'm correct about something I polish it and wear it as a badge for the remainder of the day.


LOL

Well, when you're correct, you're correct. What would you like me to say?? We agree more than you think.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 15, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If they agree with that which I suggested then we both should be able to agree that they're not experts.


YOU called them experts.
YOU used THEIR number to make the determination that the use of a firearm in self-defense as "very rare".
Thus, you have to make a decision:
They experts, and their numbers are legitimate, or are they not experts and their numbers are bogus.
Tell us which.


----------



## DrLove (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> LOL
> 
> Well, when you're correct, you're correct. What would you like me to say?? We agree more than you think.



No, I see agreements with you all the time. I may think you're a bit of a dick but figure we'd get along fine over beers and lobster rolls at one of those fine Legal Seafood restaurants in your area. 

That may mean that I'm a bit of a dick as well - hard to say.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 15, 2021)

DrLove said:


> No, I see agreements with you all the time. I may think you're a bit of a dick but figure we'd get along fine over beers and lobster rolls at one of those fine Legal Seafood restaurants in your area.
> 
> That may mean that I'm a bit of a dick as well - hard to say.


Our disagreement is what sort of leadership we need. I think we need to toughen up the younger generation. My kids and their friends are mostly soft as shit. I dislike that and having wimps like Biden and Harris in charge drives me insane. If you recall I said I like people on the left like Lamb and Sinema....now the left is vilifying Sinema. Most interesting. The Democratic Party seems to be moving far left? I am a moderate. In terms of Trump, he entertains me, I like his fiscal policies and I get he is polarizing. But the impact he has on leftists is just so outstanding that I must vote for him at all costs.


----------



## Donald H (Oct 15, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> YOU called them experts.
> YOU used THEIR number to make the determination that the use of a firearm in self-defense as "very rare".
> Thus, you have to make a decision:
> They experts, and their numbers are legitimate, or are they not experts and their numbers are bogus.
> Tell us which.


If their numbers are bogus then they couldn't be experts. 
The only group that has the credentials to do the study would be the Harvard study group. They're also the only study that would have no reason for bias either way. 
Can you discredit that study with something of real substance?

I'm asking you to set aside the spam, cheap insults, and profanity. Let's get to work on this topic!


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 15, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If their numbers are bogus then they couldn't be experts.


-You- called them "the real experts" -- thus, according to you, their numbers aren't bogus.
Unless you were wrong.
If so...
Why did you call them "teh real experts" if their numbers are bogus?


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 15, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Have you noticed the rising level of violence in our nation?
> 
> In many cities the police are undermanned and because of riots and protests have turned reactive rather than proactive. You can’t always count on the cops to save your sorry ass so basically you are responsible for protecting yourself and your family.
> 
> Hopefully you will never have to use a weapon for legitimate self defense but it might be better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it.


And exactly how does making more firearms available and available to criminals ease the crime rate?

"Have one and not need it..."
If you own a firearm it is far more likely to be used to kill a family member, friend, neighbor or work associate that it is ever to be used to prevent a crime.

The actual factual numbers say it is better to not have it at all.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...




Get as much training as you have money and time to get.........always carry in a holster, never a gun by itself or in a seperate bag...


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...




If you don't know what you want to carry yet, a lot of gun stores have guns for rent......try those first before you invest in anything......ask your trainers and other shooters at the store....


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> And exactly how does making more firearms available and available to criminals ease the crime rate?
> 
> "Have one and not need it..."
> If you own a firearm it is far more likely to be used to kill a family member, friend, neighbor or work associate that it is ever to be used to prevent a crime.
> ...




Wrong.......on all levels, you dumbass......

The Centers for Disease Control puts the number of defensive gun uses at 1.2 million times a year....

The Department of Justice research puts it at 1.5 million...

And the 2020 Firearms Survey puts the number at 1.67 million times a year.....

The family members getting shot are the family members of alcoholics, drug addicts and criminals.....normal people are not getting shot by their loved ones...


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2021)

JGalt said:


> Spend good money on a holster. Don't get one of those cheap Blackhawk nylon or Kydex holsters from Walmart. I have a small bin full of holsters I tried but didn't care for, so find the one that works the best for you. Serpa holsters that have a button release retention system will keep your pistol secure in the holster, but can malfunction if you end up rolling around in the dirt with someone. Most decent holsters with have either active retention like a strap with a snap on it. Or they'll have passive retention, relying on the tightness of the holster to keep the pistol in place.
> 
> Avoid wearing a holster that has the pistol pointed toward your groin or inner leg. Otherwise if you accidentally hit your femoral artery, you'll bleed out pretty quick. I prefer an inside waistband leather holster worn at 3 o'clock on my belt, that angles the grip forward a little, and points the muzzle down behind me. Milt Sparks makes a good one, or Bianci, or DeSantis. There are a lot of good holsters out there and you can pay up to a couple hundred dollars. Also remember that an accidental can easily happen when you're inserting a pistol into the holster while you're wearing it. If you take it out of the holster and are putting it back in, always make sure you don't get your shirt tail or jacket caught in the trigger guard.
> 
> ...




*Avoid wearing a holster that has the pistol pointed toward your groin or inner leg. Otherwise if you accidentally hit your femoral artery, you'll bleed out pretty quick.

Yeah....I really don't understand the fascination some people have with Appendix carry....the type of carry where a mistake will result in catastrophic damage to your leg or wedding tackle......*


----------



## JGalt (Oct 15, 2021)

2aguy said:


> *Avoid wearing a holster that has the pistol pointed toward your groin or inner leg. Otherwise if you accidentally hit your femoral artery, you'll bleed out pretty quick.
> 
> Yeah....I really don't understand the fascination some people have with Appendix carry....the type of carry where a mistake will result in catastrophic damage to your leg or wedding tackle......*



I think they call it "Mexican carry."  No idea why.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 15, 2021)

JGalt said:


> I think they call it "Mexican carry."  No idea why.




Mexican carry, from my understanding, is carrying without a holster...it goes back to the days when gun control first started in Mexico....open carrying in a holster would get you arrested....so they started to carry under their coats without a holster...


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 15, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> WTF is wrong with you.
> That post should be enough to deny you a weapon, much less a carry permit.
> 
> But, really, give your family my best.  When you use your weapon, one or more of them will most likely die.


Don’t mention my family. That is a threat.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 15, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Wrong.......on all levels, you dumbass......
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control puts the number of defensive gun uses at 1.2 million times a year....
> 
> ...


Dadoalex is just a complete asshole wishing death on my family.


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Dadoalex is just a complete asshole wishing death on my family.


Really, Dadoalex is just appalled by guns and their impact on our society. I get it.


----------



## cnm (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> @Dadoalex is just a complete asshole wishing death on my family.


The poster pointed out a reality you seem determined to ignore. Nowhere was death wished on your family, except perhaps in your delusions.


----------



## cnm (Oct 15, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Don’t mention my family. That is a threat.


Mentioning them is not the threat to them.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 16, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> And exactly how does making more firearms available and available to criminals ease the crime rate?
> 
> "Have one and not need it..."
> If you own a firearm it is far more likely to be used to kill a family member, friend, neighbor or work associate that it is ever to be used to prevent a crime.
> ...


This thread is discussing concealed carry. I live in Florida so let’s look at concealed carry in Florida. 









						Florida Update: Concealed Carry Permits Up, Violent Crime Down - The New American
					

Florida's latest report on crime and permits once again confirms Professor John Lott's contention that carrying concealed reduces violent crime. by Bob Adelmann




					thenewamerican.com
				




Currently 2,201,705 Florida residents have valid concealed weapons permits. Source…


			https://www.fdacs.gov/content/download/7502/file/cw_active.pdf
		


However the crime rate in Florida has been dropping for 50 years. 





__





						Florida crime rate drops for record 50th straight year
					






					www.fdle.state.fl.us
				




Gun sales increased in Florida in 2020. 





__





						Gun Sales Statistics in Florida
					

In the year 2020, there were 1,112,903 firearms sold in Florida. That's one firearm sold for every 18.5 people in the state. Florida ranks in the #29 position in terms of per capita gun sales, and in the #4 position in absolute firearm sales for the most recent year.



					robarguns.com
				




_
Gun Sales Statistics in *Florida*​Florida has a population of 20,598,139. In the year 2020, there were 1,112,903 firearms sold in Florida. That's one firearm sold for every 18.5 people in the state. Florida ranks in the #29 position in terms of per capita gun sales, and in the #4 position in absolute firearm sales for the most recent year. For every McDonald’s restaurant in Florida there are 2.17 gun dealers._

2020 … 1,112,903 firearms sold

2019 … 681,457

2018 … 671,355

2017 … 712,315


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 16, 2021)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Really, Dadoalex is just appalled by guns and their impact on our society. I get it.



You mean he is appalled at the lives saved from rape, beatings, stabbings, and murder?  More lives are saved with guns than are taken by criminals using guns illegally.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 16, 2021)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Really, Dadoalex is just appalled by guns and their impact on our society. I get it.


Then he should have said that instead of “your family will die”


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 16, 2021)

cnm said:


> Mentioning them is not the threat to them.


I disagree


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 16, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Wrong.......on all levels, you dumbass......
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control puts the number of defensive gun uses at 1.2 million times a year....
> 
> ...


Point to the research.
AND
All those "defensive" uses were at the OPINION of the moron with the gun.

Coming to the door with a gun to threaten someone delivering a package is not a "defensive" use except in the mind of the moron with the gun.
Moron.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 16, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Don’t mention my family. That is a threat.


No, your gun is the threat.
I'm just a person who wished you well.
Now stop the Keyboard Kommando crap please.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 16, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> No, your gun is the threat.
> I'm just a person who wished you well.
> Now stop the Keyboard Kommando crap please.


The gun I do not own? How is it a threat? Make me. You mentioned my family. Period. End of story. You’re a dickhead. You were banned once caddo kid. Grow up.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 16, 2021)

Batcat said:


> This thread is discussing concealed carry. I live in Florida so let’s look at concealed carry in Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So why do you need more guns?


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Oct 16, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Many first time concealed carry people want to carry a large weapon. Many end up leaving that weapon at home unless they are going to a dangerous area.
> 
> Over time I learned to carry a very light snub nosed .38+P caliber revolver in a pocket holster. If I am going somewhere I just grab the revolver and its holster and slip both into my pants pocket on the way out the door. I don’t have to take the time to stick a holster on my belt or inside my pants.
> 
> ...


This was an excellent comment. I carry the same strictly self defense 5-shot revolver for exactly the same reasons. Most people are impressed with big semi-autos, or cheap small ones which by nature jam more often and require more maintenance. Notice the “enclosed hammer” on this model means it cannot snag on anything (and can even fire in an emergency from within your clothes or jacket). It is always ready to be used, as it has no safety switch, but requires a long and heavy trigger pull so it cannot go off by accident.

If there are kids in the home, think about this *very*  carefully. When you carry, sooner or later when you get home you will leave it out where it oughtn’t be. It still weighs a bit. I’m in FL and I wear cargo shorts or something with a big strong pocket if I want to carry it with me.

P.S. With the right pants, holster and pullover shirt, it will be almost impossible for it to be noticed, stolen, or to fall out of your pocket.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 16, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> So why do you need more guns?


Where did I say I needed more guns?


----------



## cnm (Oct 18, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Then he should have said that instead of “your family will die”


Really? Are you sure you're a suitable person for gun ownership if you can't read the instructions?



> When you use your weapon, one or more of them will most likely die.


----------



## cnm (Oct 18, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> I disagree


Of course you do. You want to dismiss the data that shows a gun in the house is a threat to your family, much as you wish to dismiss everything that runs contrary to your preferred beliefs.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 18, 2021)

cnm said:


> Of course you do. You want to dismiss the data that shows a gun in the house is a threat to your family, much as you wish to dismiss everything that runs contrary to your preferred beliefs.




The data...from who?

There were 486 accidental gun deaths in 2019.

There were 39,107 accidental car deaths.

Of the two, the car in your garage is deadlier.

Of course, the real killers in the home?  

Alcoholics, drug addicts/sellers. and criminals.......stay away from those and your chance of being murdered in your home is reduced.....


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 18, 2021)

cnm said:


> Of course you do. You want to dismiss the data that shows a gun in the house is a threat to your family,


The data is not the question.
The conclusion drawn from that data, is.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 18, 2021)

Donald H said:


> If their numbers are bogus then they couldn't be experts.


-You- called them "the real experts" -- thus, according to you, their numbers aren't bogus.
Unless you were wrong.
If so...
Why did you call them "the real experts" if their numbers are bogus?


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Oct 18, 2021)

> “Personal attacks are childish......they are hard to avoid when dealing with assholes.”


This thought reminds me that I never finished a previous thought …

No matter how well a small pistol may fit in your pocket, when you rush home to sit on the toilet, you may find it all quite uncomfortable, and have to remove it.

Then you must remember, always, afterwards … to wash your hands.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 18, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> This thought reminds me that I never finished a previous thought …
> 
> No matter how well a small pistol may fit in your pocket, when you rush home to sit on the toilet, you may find it all quite uncomfortable, and have to remove it.
> 
> Then you must remember, always, afterwards … to wash your hands.


One of the advantages of pocket carry is that it shouldn’t be necessary to remove your firearm while in the restroom, thus avoiding the disaster of forgetting to take your gun with you.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 18, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> And exactly how does making more firearms available and available to criminals ease the crime rate?


It doesn’t.

But conservatives are nonetheless dishonest enough to continue to propagate this confirmation bias fallacy.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 18, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> If you own a firearm it is far more likely to be used to kill a family member, friend, neighbor or work associate that it is ever to be used to prevent a crime.


True.

Which is why Americans have the individual right to carry a gun for lawful self-defense – not to ‘fight crime.’


----------



## Unkotare (Oct 18, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> Thank you


In Brookline? The only way you could use a firearm in that bizzaro-world enclave and not go to prison yourself would be to shoot yourself in the foot out of remorse for your whiteness.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 18, 2021)

Unkotare said:


> In Brookline? The only way you could use a firearm in that bizzaro-world enclave and not go to prison yourself would be to shoot yourself in the foot out of remorse for your whiteness.


Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.


----------



## Canon Shooter (Oct 18, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> Thank you



Buy a quality firearm. Don't skimp due to price. Police carry Glocks for a reason. They're a damn fine handgun. Personally, I like Kimber, although I also carry my late father's Colt .380 Government Model.

Practice.

Practice, practice, practice. 

Right now, ammunition is very expensive. Consider an electronic simulator such as Laser Shot. I've never used one, but I've read a lot of positive things about the system, especially considering the shortage and price of ammunition.

I've drawn my concealed firearm twice to defend me and my loved ones. In one of those instances I was forced to pull the trigger. My hot Puerto Rican girlfriend and I are alive today because I was not only armed, but trained, as well. Don't just take safety classes. Take classes which focus on the legality of using a firearm and the application of deadly force.  

While I would not change a single thing about how I handled the situation we faced, not a day goes by that I don't think about the fact that I ended another person's life...


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 18, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> The gun I do not own? How is it a threat? Make me. You mentioned my family. Period. End of story. You’re a dickhead. You were banned once caddo kid. Grow up.


Then play internet tough guy all you want AssDefiler.
You're talking to a gut who doesn't need a gun to feel brave and your bad ass shit is just another laughing point.

Yeah AssBoy, I wished your family well.
Take it to the mods AssBoy.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 18, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Then play internet tough guy all you want AssDefiler.
> You're talking to a gut who doesn't need a gun to feel brave and your bad ass shit is just another laughing point.
> 
> Yeah AssBoy, I wished your family well.
> Take it to the mods AssBoy.


It’s better to have it and not need than need it and not have it. Period. End of story. Adios. Caddo kid.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 18, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Where did I say I needed more guns?


Read between the lines.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 18, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> True.
> 
> Which is why Americans have the individual right to carry a gun for lawful self-defense – not to ‘fight crime.’


Not true.
There is no VALID interpretation of the words present in the 2nd that speak to a right to use a firearm in self
defense.

That "right" goes back to the common law and the original castle doctrine.  However the NRA and GOP have twisted the meanings of these traditions with gun spreading legislation over the last 20 years in order to protect "law abiding" gun owners from their own stupidity.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 18, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Not true.
> There is no VALID interpretation of the words present in the 2nd that speak to a right to use a firearm in self
> defense.
> 
> That "right" goes back to the common law and the original castle doctrine.  However the NRA and GOP have twisted the meanings of these traditions with gun spreading legislation over the last 20 years in order to protect "law abiding" gun owners from their own stupidity.


So only the GOP own guns? LOL


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 18, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> But conservatives are nonetheless dishonest enough...


....says the proven liar.


----------



## Anomalism (Oct 18, 2021)

My grandfather has guns hidden in every room of his house as well as in his vehicle and on his person while he's outside. He's never more than a few feet away from a lethal weapon. He knows how to use them too. God help anybody that tries to rob him.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 18, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Read between the lines.


I have a small but adequate collection of firearms that serves my purposes nicely. I have no intention of buying any firearms in the near future.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Oct 19, 2021)

night_son said:


> If you plan to everyday carry a sidearm for self-defense purchase a high-quality retention holster, practice drawing your weapon from it, and never carry on an empty chamber. The time it takes to work the slide when you most need to defend yourself will get you killed. Good luck.


Top quality advice, right there.

I always carry with a round chambered (as does Mrs. Bootney).  I practice drawing at the range.  

A clean, smooth draw is much better than a quick, jerky draw.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Oct 19, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Not true.
> There is no VALID interpretation of the words present in the 2nd that speak to a right to use a firearm in self
> defense.
> 
> That "right" goes back to the common law and the original castle doctrine.  However the NRA and GOP have twisted the meanings of these traditions with gun spreading legislation over the last 20 years in order to protect "law abiding" gun owners from their own stupidity.


You're a dumb fuck.

Where do you dig up this horse shit?

We are NEVER going your direction again.  We see way too many abuses around the world that will never happen here because we are fucking armed. 

You should get your little commie ass the fuck out of our country forever.


----------



## Flash (Oct 19, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


I have been carrying for quite a long time.

I am also a firearms instructor and range officer.

My advice to you:

1.  Learn how to shoot the damn thing!  Go to the range and practice, practice, practice.  If you don't have a background in firearms take a class.  I am not talking about a basic class but a skills enhancement class.

2.  Get a pistol with a safety.

3.  Try to avoid using the gun.  Once you take it out your life could change forever.  Make sure that if you do use it then it is a real life threatening situation.

4.  Get a good concealed holster. Practice drawing and firing a lot.

5.  For actual carry ammo buy some top quality like Hornady Critical Defense.  Don't use range ammo for carry.

6.  For carry don't buy any caliber less than 9mm.

7.  Don't buy a cheap carry pistol.  Buy something reliable like a Sig 365.  If money is an issue then a M&P Shield is reliable and fairly inexpensive.  That is about as cheap as you want to go.


----------



## Mr Natural (Oct 19, 2021)

Here’s hoping that you get your license and someday actually get to shoot somebody and realize a dream come true.


----------



## Flash (Oct 19, 2021)

Azog

Shooting a pistol in real life is not like you see in the movies.

Pistol marksmanship is very difficult to master.

Most casual gun owners can't hit anything beyond a few feet.

Remember also that if you ever need to use it for self defense your adrenaline level will be sky high and your heart will be beating like a drum.  Shooting at a range is the not the same as shooting when confronted with danger.  When I do my classes I put the students under stress.  

Practice as much as you can and if you can get a class to enhance your skills.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 19, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Here’s hoping that you get your license and someday actually get to shoot somebody and realize a dream come true.


Said no rational, reasoned person, ever.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 19, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> So only the GOP own guns? LOL


Are you sure?
Sounds pretty stupid to me but, coming from you, not unexpected.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 19, 2021)

Batcat said:


> I have a small but adequate collection of firearms that serves my purposes nicely. I have no intention of buying any firearms in the near future.


Why?
What use is more than one?
and since those purposes are only to kill
again
Why more than one?
and
What were the drivers prompting you to buy multiple firearms?
Have those drivers disappeared and if they have, why do you still own multiple firearms?

You see, I doubt your comment's veracity because all it will take to get you to buy more is to hit your trigger, as it were.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 19, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Are you sure?
> Sounds pretty stupid to me but, coming from you, not unexpected.


Your words not mine, caddo kid.


----------



## justinacolmena (Oct 19, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...


I had a concealed carry pistol license once upon a time, and a few firearms legally purchased and registered to my name. Then a female sheriff's deputy started following me around, they went to court to revoke my rights on a falsified pretext of mental illness, and now I'm considered an "armed and dangerous" adjudicated mental defective for the rest of my life, with no appeal and no recourse possible ever, and now cops, state employees, and military personnel circulate mock wanted posters of me and shoot at me and snipe at me with their weapons whenever they can for sport or for any other reason or excuse or justification they can come up with.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 19, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> You're a dumb fuck.
> 
> Where do you dig up this horse shit?
> 
> ...


2 votes fool.
Jan 2023 when the Democrats hold that 52-48 margin it will come.
The GOP has 8 seats seriously at risk to the Dems 2
The more you clowns hug Trump the easier the Dems jobs get.
Look for 2023 for gun control, voting rights and "green" legislation

Don't know what "direction" you have in your oh so Tiny Mind but since the proposals would not keep a single firearm out of the hands of anyone legally entitled to own, one can guess it's somewhere in the deep dark crevices ...
OF YOUR ASS!


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 19, 2021)

justinacolmena said:


> I had a concealed carry pistol license once upon a time, and a few firearms legally purchased and registered to my name. Then a female sheriff's deputy started following me around, they went to court to revoke my rights on a falsified pretext of mental illness


It was hardly falsified


----------



## Batcat (Oct 19, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Why?
> What use is more than one?
> and since those purposes are only to kill
> again
> ...


To say that a firearm’s only use is killing shows how little you know about firearms. That is like saying the only use for a car is to drive you to and from work. 

A firearm has multiple uses. Some uses do involve killing. I know a lady who has killed a number of pigmy rattlers on her yard with a shotgun. She is worried that one will bite her dog. I also know a number of hunters who hunt for food to stock their freezers. 

I enjoyed target shooting for years and still engage in the sport occasionally (ammo is still hard to find). Target shooting involves punching holes in paper not killing. 

My mother was attacked while walking home and my daughter confronted an intruder breaking into our home. Both resolved the problem with a handgun but no one was killed or injured.

If I use a handgun to stop an attacker who intends to seriously injure me or kill me I am not attempting to kill him — my object is to stop the attack. The mere fact that I am armed may resolve the problem. If I do shoot the attacker there is an excellent chance he will survive if he receives care in time. 

I bought multiple firearms as part of my target shooting hobby and also for use for legal concealed carry. It is hard to conceal a target revolver or pistol and such weapons are a pain to carry. I acquired my small collection of firearms over a period of half a century. Each firearm is a challenge to master. That is part of the fun of target shooting. A .22 Ruger target pistol is a lot different than a S&W .44 Magnum revolver. 

Even if I stopped shooting today I would have no reason to sell my collection of firearms. I also have a small collection of watches and a small collection of knives. I enjoy collecting items. 

I might decide to buy another firearm if one comes along that I am interested in. I have that right in this nation and I appreciate that fact. The last firearm I bought was three years ago.


----------



## justinacolmena (Oct 20, 2021)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> It was hardly falsified


Dumbass. You owe me your life and your fortune for one defamatory comment like that. No matter where you make on or offline. And I will make you pay.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 20, 2021)

Batcat said:


> To say that a firearm’s only use is killing shows how little you know about firearms.


His ignorance is willful.


----------



## justinacolmena (Oct 20, 2021)

Batcat said:


> I also know a number of hunters who hunt for food to stock their freezers.


Hunting is still technically killing -- and nothing a human being who eats any sort of meat ought to be ashamed of.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 20, 2021)

justinacolmena said:


> Hunting is still technically killing -- and nothing a human being who eats any sort of meat ought to be ashamed of.


I was not denying that one of the many tasks firearms are used for is killing. 

For a while I lived in what at the time was the poorest county in Florida and a lot of people hunted to provide meat for their families. Feral hog were hunted year around as they are considered an invasive species and of course deer were hunted in season. 

I personally have absolutely nothing against hunting but never have had any involvement with it.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 20, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Your words not mine, caddo kid.


No, your opinion, not mine AssDefiler


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 20, 2021)

Batcat said:


> To say that a firearm’s only use is killing shows how little you know about firearms. That is like saying the only use for a car is to drive you to and from work.
> 
> A firearm has multiple uses. Some uses do involve killing. I know a lady who has killed a number of pigmy rattlers on her yard with a shotgun. She is worried that one will bite her dog. I also know a number of hunters who hunt for food to stock their freezers.
> 
> ...


OH CUT THE CRAP

SHOW me ONE SINGLE LEGITIMATE use of a firearm that does not involve killing.
BTW, 
the threat to kill is still killing.
target practice is practicing killing

That's why issuing a threat with a firearm in hand is a much more serious crime than doing so empty handed.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Oct 20, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Why?
> What use is more than one?
> and since those purposes are only to kill
> again
> ...


No tool is perfect for every job.  Just go to a decent hardware store and look at all the different hammers.  Different tools for different jobs.  Small pistol for concealed carry, powerful pistol for quickly disabling a target.  Small caliber pistol for practice/competitive shooting.  Different gauge shotguns for hunting different game, short barreled shotgun (legal length of course) for home defense.  Small caliber rifle for range shooting/competition.  I can go on and on.  Do you get the point?


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 20, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Not true.
> There is no VALID interpretation of the words present in the 2nd that speak to a right to use a firearm in self
> defense.
> 
> That "right" goes back to the common law and the original castle doctrine.  However the NRA and GOP have twisted the meanings of these traditions with gun spreading legislation over the last 20 years in order to protect "law abiding" gun owners from their own stupidity.


Wrong.

The Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law, as determined by the Supreme Court – including the Second Amendment.

And Second Amendment jurisprudence holds that there is an individual right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, unconnected to militia service.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 20, 2021)

cnm said:


> Of course you do. You want to dismiss the data that shows a gun in the house is a threat to your family, much as you wish to dismiss everything that runs contrary to your preferred beliefs.


It’s willful ignorance and idiocy to not acknowledge the fact that a gun in the home is more likely to kill the homeowner and/or family members than an intruder.

It’s likewise idiotic to refer to that fact as ‘justification’ to oppose citizens possessing guns in the home.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 20, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> And Second Amendment jurisprudence holds that there is an individual right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense...


...among other things.
Why do you -always- leave out the "among other things"?
Yours is a lie of omission.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 20, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It’s willful ignorance and idiocy...


... says the known liar.


C_Clayton_Jones said:


> to not acknowledge the fact that a gun in the home is more likely to kill the homeowner and/or family members than an intruder.


^^^^
This is a willful misrepresentation of fact -- and thus, a lie.
From a known liar.
The fact a gun in the home is unliklely to be used to kill an intruder is absolutely and utterly meaningless.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 20, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> OH CUT THE CRAP
> 
> SHOW me ONE SINGLE LEGITIMATE use of a firearm that does not involve killing.
> BTW,
> ...


Target shooting at a silhouette target could be considered practice for legitimate self defense using a firearm. The object of shooting an attacker in legitimate self defense is not to kill him but to stop his attack. A high percentage of bad guys shot with a handgun while attacking an armed good guy survive if they get medical attention reasonably quickly. 






Shooting at a bullseye target is shooting for score, similar in many ways to archery. (Of course you will argue that the only use of a bow and arrow is to kill.)









						Bullseye Shooting?
					

If you were to mention competitive handgun shooting many years ago, no one had to ask if you meant USPSA, IDPA, PPC, cowboy action, metallic silhouette, NRA Act




					americanhandgunner.com
				




***snip***

_
Today, formal bullseye competition in the U.S. is governed by the National Rifle Association and called NRA Precision Pistol. The actual shooting challenge is quite simple. Stand at the firing line, hold the pistol in one hand, and fire 5- or 10-shot strings at different ranges and under different time limits.

When space permits, targets are at 50 and 25 yards. Slow Fire at 50 yards allows 10 minutes to fire 10 shots. Timed Fire at 25 yards is five shots in 20 seconds. Rapid Fire at 25 yards is five shots in 10 seconds.

About now all the action shooters are having a hearty laugh at the definition of Rapid Fire. Five shots in one second is more like it. Well, maybe, but don’t forget it’s at 25 yards and the 10-ring measures 3.36″, the tie-breaking X ring measures 1.695″. I’ve known plenty of blazing fast action shooters who at 25 yards couldn’t hit the 10-ring except by chance — if they could hit the target at all.

Three categories of handguns are recognized. These are .22 LR, “any centerfire” — minimum caliber .32 or 7.65mm, and .45 ACP. Optical sights are permitted. Matches for .22 LR-only are quite popular. A match generally consists of 30 shots — slow, timed and rapid fire — for a total of 90 shots and a maximum of 900 points.

Major matches require 90 shots with each of the three categories of handgun, for a maximum of 2,700 points — which has never been achieved in all the decades of competition. The current record, 2680-159X, was set by Hershel Anderson in 1974.]_




Before it closed the Tampa Police Pistol Range required civilians to use bullseye targets. Police used silhouette targets. That range was the home of the Midwinter Pistol Match For many years. 





__





						National Mid-Winter Pistol Championships
					





					www.wwmcmillan.info
				




Issuing a threat with any weapon is usually considered more serious than an empty handed threat. For example threatening a person with a knife.

Of course you have no idea how challenging shooting can be. Most people feel all you have to do is point the weapon and pull the trigger and you will hit what you are aiming at. Target shooting is not quite that simple.

I doubt with your prejudice against firearms you will be interested but perhaps others will be. The link below leads to a fascinating set of articles about the zen of bullseye pistol shooting. 





__





						Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol
					





					www.bullseyepistol.com
				




*Zen in the Art of Pistol Shooting*
    Foreword by John Dreyer

_
*Introduction*

Volumes of material have been written about acquiring proper physical technique and mental discipline in precision pistol shooting. I have found that most are tremendously valuable to any serious competitor and do a good job of describing the mechanics and philosophy of shooting. However, very few truly explored the ongoing tremendous internal battle of the competitor or the many other spiritual aspects of the sport. 

In my journey from Marksman to Master, I learned a great deal about not only punching holes in paper, but about myself and my perception of life itself. Because I was unable to put together the words to relate my experiences, I sought for credible written works that properly illustrated my discoveries both on and off the range. As a result, I collected and dissected over fifty books plus almost that many articles from periodicals and other media on a variety of aspects of life and shooting. After almost a year of research and reflection, I was finally able to assemble that massive and mysterious puzzle of intellect and emotion that encompassed life both on and off the range. Surprisingly, the final piece of my puzzle turned out to be an incredibly simple way of looking at life, an ancient Eastern philosophy called Zen, a Japanese subset of Buddhist tradition. 

*Shooting as a Zen Art*

Deceptively simple in appearance, yet vastly complex is the art of pistol shooting. Without question, its mechanics are simple. As Bill Joyner explains, "Create a machine rest with your stance, grip and breath control. Then with the gun in the machine rest, apply [trigger] pressure directly to the rear until the hammer falls." Attaining the physical prowess to accomplish this task is one thing. However, the mind's influence makes the process a bit more difficult. As Frank Higginson has said, "In shooting, you learn more about yourself than any other sport." This self-discovery that exists in shooting is nothing more than Zen itself.

While you may have thought of Zen as distant and mysterious, bear with me while I present it here in a series of diverse articles for you to explore. I encourage you to set aside any preconceived notions you have about Zen and check out these works. At minimum, you will gain insight into an aspect of competitive shooting that you may never have considered before_


----------



## Batcat (Oct 20, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> ... says the known liar.
> 
> ^^^^
> This is a willful misrepresentation of fact -- and thus, a lie.
> ...


Without mentioning the type of firearm in the home the statement that a firearm in the home is unlikely to be used to *kill* an intruder is meaningless. 

Many home invaders are not killed but survive being shot by the home owner if he uses a handgun. Handguns are not as lethal as they are portrayed to be in the movies or on TV. A shotgun loaded with proper ammo is much more lethal.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 20, 2021)

Flash said:


> I have been carrying for quite a long time.
> 
> I am also a firearms instructor and range officer.
> 
> ...


Revolvers are not as popular for concealed carry today but they can have advantages. I carry a .38 +P S&W Model 642 snub nosed revolver. Of course at age 75 I am a dinosaur. 





Some call it a belly gun as you can jam it into an attackers belly, pull the trigger and it will fire. If you try that with a pistol it will not fire. You can also shoot this weapon from inside a coat pocket. 

The model 642 has a stiff recoil if loaded with 38+P ammo and is double action only which most shooters find more difficult to master than single action shooting. However double action shooting is more appropriate for self defense work than cocking your handgun and firing it single action. The heavy trigger pull will help deter a prosecuting attorney from claiming you shot someone accidentally.

Why All Defensive Revolvers Should be Double Action Only


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 21, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> OH CUT THE CRAP
> 
> SHOW me ONE SINGLE LEGITIMATE use of a firearm that does not involve killing.
> BTW,
> ...




Why are all of you anti-gun extremists so mentally deranged?

Moron...







Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them

*LANCASTER, Ohio - It happened along a walking path in Lancaster.

Dinah Burns is licensed to carry a concealed gun, but she'd only recently started taking her weapon while walking her dog.

Based on what happened, it looks like she'll make a point of carrying from now on.

"I think if they'd gotten any closer, I probably would have fired,” said Burns.

It was Monday when Burns was on a footpath near Sanderson Elementary School.

"Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said 'You're coming with us'."

The men weren't deterred by Dinah's dog Gracie.

"I said, 'Well, what do you want?,' and as I was saying that I reached in to my pocket and slipped my gun out, slipped the safety off as I pulled it out. As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, 'I have this and I'm not afraid to use it.'"

The men took off and so far have eluded police. Dinah posted about the incident on Facebook to alert friends and neighbors, to criticism by some.

"Most of the males' opinion was, 'Why didn't you shoot them?'"

Easy to second-guess a decision made under pressure, based on her concealed carry training, and police agree.

"To get out of a situation, back out, get out of it as much as you can without having to discharge your firearm."

"I will say it's a good thing to go from a place of danger to a place of safety, however you get that done,” said Sgt. Matt Chambers, Lancaster Police.

"Very thankful that it turned out the way it did, and hope it doesn't happen again, but I will be prepared."
========*

CCW IN ACTION: Armed 22-Year-Old Woman Stops Three Men Attempting To Rob Her In Store Parking Lot – Concealed Nation

OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA — A concealed carrier successfully thwarted the efforts of three men to rob her late at night outside a Dollar Tree. According to police reports from the scene, the woman was exiting the Dollar Tree and heading to her car when she was approached by a man and asked to walk with him. When she refused, he point-blank told her he was going to rob her of her purse.

At this point, according to KOCO, she was presented by two other men backing up the first. She withdrew her concealed carry pistol from her purse and threatened to use it to protect herself. All three men quickly exited and fled the scene.
===========
Woman Scares off Assailant With Stick. Just Kidding, it was a gun.

*Just before 7pm on Wednesday night, a 29 year-old woman had gathered up her dog and headed outside to… well, to let her dog do what dogs do.

Upon her first step outside her Minot, North Dakota home, she was hit solidly in the face with a blunt object, knocking her backward down the stairs and into her home.

Her assailant followed her into her home and started to approach her, but the woman had made it to a cabinet where she retrieved a handgun to protect herself and her home.

When confronted with the firearm, the violent intruder and would-be robber/rapist/murderer fled the scene.

The smart, independent, gun-owning woman did not require medical attention, most likely due to the fact that she was able to pull a weapon on her assailant to end the attack.*
==============


----------



## Flash (Oct 21, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Revolvers are not as popular for concealed carry today but they can have advantages. I carry a .38 +P S&W Model 642 snub nosed revolver. Of course at age 75 I am a dinosaur.
> 
> View attachment 554419
> 
> ...


I'm just a youngin compared to you at 74.

A lot of people like a little snub nose revolver for concealed carry.


----------



## justinacolmena (Oct 21, 2021)

Batcat said:


> I personally have absolutely nothing against hunting but never have had any involvement with it.


Same here. I would like to hunt moose or caribou one day, but the jackass Democrats and RINOs from my hometown went to court to revoke my rights as soon as they learned I possessed firearms.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 21, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> No tool is perfect for every job.  Just go to a decent hardware store and look at all the different hammers.  Different tools for different jobs.  Small pistol for concealed carry, powerful pistol for quickly disabling a target.  Small caliber pistol for practice/competitive shooting.  Different gauge shotguns for hunting different game, short barreled shotgun (legal length of course) for home defense.  Small caliber rifle for range shooting/competition.  I can go on and on.  Do you get the point?


Sure.

You want to have multiple choices available when you decide to kill someone.


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 21, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> And Second Amendment jurisprudence holds that there is an individual right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, unconnected to militia service.


Which, of course, is a bastardization of the 2nd Amendment. Another amendment should have been passed.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 21, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Wrong.
> 
> The Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law, as determined by the Supreme Court – including the Second Amendment.
> 
> And Second Amendment jurisprudence holds that there is an individual right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, unconnected to militia service.


Heller 2010.

Will be overturned as soon as people who can actually read take over the court.

The words "self defense" are mentioned NOWHERE in the constitution BUT the word MILITIA is.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 21, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Target shooting at a silhouette target could be considered practice for legitimate self defense using a firearm. The object of shooting an attacker in legitimate self defense is not to kill him but to stop his attack. A high percentage of bad guys shot with a handgun while attacking an armed good guy survive if they get medical attention reasonably quickly.
> 
> View attachment 554368
> 
> ...


JFC!!!
Look at your first image.
If that is not a confirmation that "target practice" is nothing but practicing killing ....

BWAHAHAHAHAH


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 21, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Why are all of you anti-gun extremists so mentally deranged?
> 
> Moron...
> 
> ...


Why do you gun lovers believe fairy tales?

You gun is most likely to kill your spouse, your children, you.  Simple clear fact.
The more guns you have the more likely they will be used for their designed purpose but not for your original intent.

Simple facts.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 21, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> JFC!!!
> Look at your first image.
> If that is not a confirmation that "target practice" is nothing but practicing killing ....
> 
> BWAHAHAHAHAH


Did you read the post or do you just look at pictures?

I didn’t deny shooting at silhouette targets is practice for the use of a firearm for self defense. It definitely is. However an entirely different type of target shooting is Bullseye shooting where the important factor is the score on the target. 

I legally carry a handgun for self defense so I practice on silhouette targets occasionally. When I do, I want to hit the vital areas of a target as fast as possible. I am mot trying to shoot tight groups. 

If you read the post you might also discover info about the zen of shooting at bullseye targets. You are not thinking about killing but instead eights, nines, tens, and Xs. If you reload you may be developing a load that is more accurate in your particular firearm. 

There is a lot more to the hobby of shooting than just killing. The last thing I ever hope to do is shoot someone let alone kill them yet I still enjoy shooting. It’s challenging and it often takes years to become proficient.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 22, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Heller 2010.
> 
> Will be overturned as soon as people who can actually read take over the court.
> 
> The words "self defense" are mentioned NOWHERE in the constitution BUT the word MILITIA is.




and you didn't respond to my videos of all the things people do with guns that don't involve killing anyone...

more...


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 22, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Why do you gun lovers believe fairy tales?
> 
> You gun is most likely to kill your spouse, your children, you.  Simple clear fact.
> The more guns you have the more likely they will be used for their designed purpose but not for your original intent.
> ...




No...not a clear fact...criminals living in the home, drug dealers, gang members, who are also abusing alcohol and drugs are more likely to kill family members...the gun has nothing to do with it....

The gun in the home isn't the issue, the criminal, alcoholic, drug user is the issue.....


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 22, 2021)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Which, of course, is a bastardization of the 2nd Amendment. Another amendment should have been passed.




Yes......simple words are a bastardization to shitheads like you....

"Shall not be infringed," must really be hard for an idiot like you to process.....


----------



## AZrailwhale (Oct 22, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Heller 2010.
> 
> Will be overturned as soon as people who can actually read take over the court.
> 
> The words "self defense" are mentioned NOWHERE in the constitution BUT the word MILITIA is.


Self defense was not mentioned because the founders weren't morons.  Self defense using any weapon from a pen knife to a cannon was an assumed right.  They would no more see a need for a law allowing self defense than they would see the need for one allowing breathing.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 22, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Did you read the post or do you just look at pictures?
> 
> I didn’t deny shooting at silhouette targets is practice for the use of a firearm for self defense. It definitely is. However an entirely different type of target shooting is Bullseye shooting where the important factor is the score on the target.
> 
> ...


TARGET PRACTICE = PRACTICE KILLING = PRACTICE FOR KILLING IN THE FUTURE

There's a lot more to golf than the score but, in the end, the goal is always the same.  Put the ball in the hole.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 22, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> Self defense was not mentioned because the founders weren't morons.  Self defense using any weapon from a pen knife to a cannon was an assumed right.  They would no more see a need for a law allowing self defense than they would see the need for one allowing breathing.





2aguy said:


> and you didn't respond to my videos of all the things people do with guns that don't involve killing anyone...
> 
> more...


Practice shooting is practice killing.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 22, 2021)

2aguy said:


> No...not a clear fact...criminals living in the home, drug dealers, gang members, who are also abusing alcohol and drugs are more likely to kill family members...the gun has nothing to do with it....
> 
> The gun in the home isn't the issue, the criminal, alcoholic, drug user is the issue.....


No, people with guns are most likely to use their weapon against a familiar.
Simple fact.
You can deny the fact but it does not change the fact.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 22, 2021)

AZrailwhale said:


> Self defense was not mentioned because the founders weren't morons.  Self defense using any weapon from a pen knife to a cannon was an assumed right.  They would no more see a need for a law allowing self defense than they would see the need for one allowing breathing.


IF, as you say no law was needed to allow guns for self defense
THEN why was one needed for another purpose?

Seems you think the founders were a bunch of dumbasses.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 22, 2021)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Which, of course, is a bastardization of the 2nd Amendment. Another amendment should have been passed.


And conservatives believe that the right to equal protection of the law prohibiting anti-gay legislation to be a ‘bastardization’ of the 14th Amendment.

If one is going to be an advocate of limited government and the safeguarding individual liberty, he must do so consistently – even if it means allowing citizens to engage in activities one disapproves of.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 22, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Heller 2010.
> 
> Will be overturned as soon as people who can actually read take over the court.
> 
> The words "self defense" are mentioned NOWHERE in the constitution BUT the word MILITIA is.


The words ‘freedom of association’ are mentioned nowhere in the Constitution; but they are there nonetheless, as determined by the Supreme Court.

Constitutional jurisprudence isn’t a cafeteria plan – one cannot support the parts of the Constitution he likes and ignore the parts he doesn’t like.


----------



## Batcat (Oct 22, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> TARGET PRACTICE = PRACTICE KILLING = PRACTICE FOR KILLING IN THE FUTURE
> 
> There's a lot more to golf than the score but, in the end, the goal is always the same.  Put the ball in the hole.


So are you opposed to archery, fencing, judo, or boxing. All are are Olympic sports but with your biased  attitude you probably look at them as practice for killing just like you do bullseye target shooting. 

I will post a video dealing with tips to improve a shooter’s ability at bullseye competition. Note there is absolutely no discussion of killing. I will also post a video dealing with Olympic pistol target shooting. 

I doubt if anything can change your mid but perhaps another poster will read these posts and get interested in bullseye or Olympic target shooting. It is very challenging but as a hobby a lot of fun and you meet a lot of good people.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 22, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> No, people with guns are most likely to use their weapon against a familiar.
> Simple fact.
> You can deny the fact but it does not change the fact.




Yes...criminals murder other criminals...normal people do not murder people.......


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 23, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> And conservatives believe that the right to equal protection of the law prohibiting anti-gay legislation to be a ‘bastardization’ of the 14th Amendment.


^^^
This is a lie.


C_Clayton_Jones said:


> If one is going to be an advocate of limited government and the safeguarding individual liberty, he must do so consistently – even if it means allowing citizens to engage in activities one disapproves of.


Like not getting a vaccine?
Someone better tell the Democrats.
And you.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 23, 2021)

Feel free to get lost caddo kid


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 23, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.


Please reconsider.  Sadly, too many guns are used for murder and suicide.

Are you 100% sure that no one who has access to your gun is suicidal?


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 23, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It’s willful ignorance and idiocy to not acknowledge the fact that a gun in the home is more likely to kill the homeowner and/or family members than an intruder.


Sad but true!  For each justifiable homicide, there are about 30 criminal homicides and about 60 suicides.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 23, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Please reconsider.  Sadly, too many guns are used for murder and suicide.
> 
> Are you 100% sure that no one who has access to your gun is suicidal?


Since I will be the only one with access, yes.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 23, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Since I will be the only one with access, yes.


Best luck!


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 23, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Sad but true!  For each justifiable homicide, there are about 30 criminal homicides and about 60 suicides.




Not even close....

Centers for Disease control puts the number of defensive gun uses at 1.2 million times a year....

The Department of Justice research puts the number at 1.5 million times a year.

The 2020 Firearms survey puts the number at 1.67 million times a year......

The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is concentrated in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities...that is a fact.   The policies of the democrat party, attacking the police, and releasing violent gun criminals, drives the gun crime and gun murder rates in those cities.

Normal people who own guns for hunting, competition, collecting.....and the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment.....self defense......do not use their 600 million guns for crime.....


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 23, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Not even close....
> 
> Centers for Disease control puts the number of defensive gun uses at 1.2 million times a year....
> 
> ...


Other sources give different numbers.  Table -- page 6.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 23, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The words ‘freedom of association’ are mentioned nowhere in the Constitution; but they are there nonetheless, as determined by the Supreme Court.
> 
> Constitutional jurisprudence isn’t a cafeteria plan – one cannot support the parts of the Constitution he likes and ignore the parts he doesn’t like.


I support all parts of the constitution that are not figments of the NRA imagination.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 23, 2021)

Batcat said:


> So are you opposed to archery, fencing, judo, or boxing. All are are Olympic sports but with your biased  attitude you probably look at them as practice for killing just like you do bullseye target shooting.
> 
> I will post a video dealing with tips to improve a shooter’s ability at bullseye competition. Note there is absolutely no discussion of killing. I will also post a video dealing with Olympic pistol target shooting.
> 
> I doubt if anything can change your mid but perhaps another poster will read these posts and get interested in bullseye or Olympic target shooting. It is very challenging but as a hobby a lot of fun and you meet a lot of good people.


Try not to imagine you understand what I believe.
That well is way to deep for someone so shallow.

There is no legitimate use for a firearm that does not include killing or practicing killing.

AND?
Why mention killing in a video about guns?
Kinda redundant, don't ya think?


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 23, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Yes...criminals murder other criminals...normal people do not murder people.......


Most murders are of normal people by normal people.
You know, victims of law abiding gun owners.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 23, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Most murders are of normal people by normal people.
> You know, victims of law abiding gun owners.



No, they arent.  90% of murder is comitted by criminals with long histories of crime and violence.

You guys know so little about so much…


----------



## Batcat (Oct 23, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Try not to imagine you understand what I believe.
> That well is way to deep for someone so shallow.
> 
> There is no legitimate use for a firearm that does not include killing or practicing killing.
> ...


An attempt to insult me by calling me shallow does not advance your argument that the only purpose guns have is killing. 

I’ll return the insult by pointing out you are closed minded. Today most  good liberals suffer from that personality trait. At once time liberals were the more open minded but most today are brainwashed and consequently incapable of logical reasoning. 

You also avoided answering my question. …

_So are you opposed to archery, fencing, judo, or boxing? All are are Olympic sports but with your biased attitude you probably look at them as practice for killing just like you do bullseye target shooting._


----------



## maybelooking (Oct 24, 2021)

Not sure if its been covered but

Get INSURANCE.  If you carry, you will be the target of leftist hack judges and attorneys if you ever have to defend yourself.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Please reconsider.  Sadly, too many guns are used for murder and suicide.


They are used FAR more often for self-defense, however.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Sad but true!  For each justifiable homicide, there are about 30 criminal homicides and about 60 suicides.


As you are well aware, the number of justifiable homicides is meaningless.
Why do you continue to perpetuate a falsehood?


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Oct 24, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> At the age of 41 I will be applying. Got my basic firearms safety certificate and will be dropping off my application to the local PD in the next few days. Finally biting the bullet and buying a firearm that I hope I never ever have to use.
> 
> Wish me luck! Any and all advice is welcome.
> 
> ...



You should NOT have to ask "permission" to carry.
You have the "RIGHT" TO BEAR ARMS.  it's in the Constitution.
Americans have so willingly surrendered those rights when those before them fought so hard to secure them.
Compliance with tyranny is acceptance of tyranny..

And because almost everyone complies....tyrants win.
Also, are you aware that by applying, you have just "Registered" yourself into a list that goes straight to the anti-self-defense ATF etc ???

At the rate Americans are bowing to tyranny, you won't have that firearm for long.
The exact same PD you had to beg and grovel for your "permit" will be there soon to take it back.  By force.

Yeah...."good luck"
YOU asked for advice.  There's some of the best ever.....like it or not.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Other sources give different numbers.  Table -- page 6.


Your source proves that a firearm is used 10x more often for self-defense than murder, and 5x more often for self-defense than suicide.
If the use of a fireram in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
What is more rate than "very rare"?


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 24, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Most murders are of normal people by normal people.
> You know, victims of law abiding gun owners.




The Criminology of Firearms

In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

Christoffel, _et al_., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records,* roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records *— exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 24, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Your source proves that a firearm is used 10x more often for self-defense than murder, and 5x more often for self-defense than suicide.
> If the use of a fireram in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
> What is more rate than "very rare"?


Most self-defensive use of firearms is just brandishing the weapon in response to something like simple assault.  That is not really as serious as murder or suicide.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 24, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> They are used FAR more often for self-defense, however.


I will look into the data.  Still, guns are used in over 20,000 suicides and over 10,000 murders per year in USA.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Most self-defensive use of firearms is just brandishing the weapon in response to something like simple assault.


Even if true, nothing here changes the fact guns are used in self-defense FAR more often than to murder of commit suicide.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> I will look into the data.  Still, guns are used in over 20,000 suicides and over 10,000 murders per year in USA.


And over 100,000 times per year for self-defense.
Your source says so.
If the use of a firearm in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
What is more rare than "very rare"?


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 24, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> And over 100,000 times per year for self-defense.
> Your source says so.
> If the use of a firearm in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
> What is more rare than "very rare"?


Perhaps self-defense from minor crimes like Simple Assault.  This is the most common crime.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Oct 24, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Even if true, nothing here changes the fact guns are used in self-defense FAR more often than to murder of commit suicide.


Mostly from minor assault.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Mostly from minor assault.



And when the criminal first approaches the victim how does the victim know it is just a “simple” assault?   And how exactly do you define a “simple” assault?  A beating that leads to a concussion?  How far does a sexual assault have to go to merely be “simple?”


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 24, 2021)

2aguy said:


> No, they arent.  90% of murder is comitted by criminals with long histories of crime and violence.
> 
> You guys know so little about so much…


Proof? of your ridiculous claim?


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 24, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Proof? of your ridiculous claim?



Read my follow up post I link to the research


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 24, 2021)

Batcat said:


> An attempt to insult me by calling me shallow does not advance your argument that the only purpose guns have is killing.
> 
> I’ll return the insult by pointing out you are closed minded. Today most  good liberals suffer from that personality trait. At once time liberals were the more open minded but most today are brainwashed and consequently incapable of logical reasoning.
> 
> ...


Fencing is exercise as is judo and boxing.  Perhaps, if you were not so shallow and so violently inclined you might have bought up the javelin as a more appropriate example.

BUT
As soon as you point out the murders committed by criminals using javelins or Olympic bows, or judo, or someone criminally boxing someone to death then you may have a point.

Do you understand your Tiny Minded inability to form a cogent response?

Shallow was not an insult, it was a description of your mental processes.


----------



## Dadoalex (Oct 24, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The Criminology of Firearms
> 
> In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.
> 
> ...


Then why do they work in every 1st world country on the planet?

Damn, everybody in the world but you knows you just posted a pile of crap.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 24, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Then why do they work in every 1st world country on the planet?
> 
> Damn, everybody in the world but you knows you just posted a pile of crap.



They dont.  I have linked to the British police stating they cant stop the flood of illegal guns into Britain…..I have linked to  the fact that French and other European criminals use fully automatic rifles and grenades…….Sweden is having a major problem with violent gangs also using fully automatic rifles And grenades.

The cultural difference between U.S. and European criminals is the Europeans tend not to murder as often….but that is changing.  The immigrant gangs are
More violent and are using guns to kill now.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Perhaps self-defense from minor crimes like Simple Assault.  This is the most common crime.


So you agree: >100,000 times per year for self-defense.
Your source says so as well.

Now, the question you keep avoiding:
If the use of a firearm in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
What is more rare than "very rare"?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 24, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Mostly from minor assault.


So you agree: >100,000 times per year for self-defense.
Your source says so as well.

Now, the question you keep avoiding:
If the use of a firearm in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
What is more rare than "very rare"?


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 24, 2021)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> You should NOT have to ask "permission" to carry.
> You have the "RIGHT" TO BEAR ARMS.  it's in the Constitution.
> Americans have so willingly surrendered those rights when those before them fought so hard to secure them.
> Compliance with tyranny is acceptance of tyranny..
> ...


This is a lie.

No rights have been ‘surrendered’; laws enacted consistent with Second Amendment jurisprudence is not ‘tyranny’ – such claims are ignorant nonsense and baseless demagoguery.

Laws requiring a permit to carry a concealed firearm are perfectly lawful and Constitutional, in no manner violating the Second Amendment:

“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”






						DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
					






					www.law.cornell.edu


----------



## Batcat (Oct 24, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> Fencing is exercise as is judo and boxing.  Perhaps, if you were not so shallow and so violently inclined you might have bought up the javelin as a more appropriate example.
> 
> BUT
> As soon as you point out the murders committed by criminals using javelins or Olympic bows, or judo, or someone criminally boxing someone to death then you may have a point.
> ...


Target shooting involves physical fitness and is an exercise in concentration. 









						Top 10 Health Benefits of Going To a Shooting Range
					

shooting range can be a stress-relieving adventure. Believe it or not, the benefits of participating in shooting sports can improve your health both physical




					www.healthfitnessrevolution.com
				




You will have a hard time find any murders committed by dedicated Olympic target pistols such as the one pictured just as I would have a hard time finding murders involving Olympic bows. Such weapons are not designed for killing which proves my point that firearms have more uses than just killing. It seems you are so biased and closed minded to refuse to accept that fact. 





However I can find a story about a bow and arrow used in a mass murders and it is rather recent. That doesn’t prove that the only purpose of a bow is to kill. Such a statement is just as ridiculous as saying the only purpose for a gun is for killing. 









						Man armed with bow and arrow kills five people in Norway attacks, police say
					

A man armed with a bow and arrow killed five people and wounded two others in a series of attacks in the Norwegian town of Kongsberg on Wednesday, local police said.




					www.reuters.com
				




Judo is the sporting version of jujitsu. 









						Judo - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




_*Judo* (柔道, jūdō, Japanese pronunciation: [dʑɯꜜːdoː], lit. "gentle way") is generally categorized as a modern Japanese martial art, which has since evolved into an Olympic and Paralympic event. The sport was created in 1882 by Jigoro Kano (嘉納治五郎) as a physical, mental, and moral pedagogy in Japan. With its origins coming from jujutsu, judo's most prominent feature is its competitive element, where the objective is to either throw or take down the opponent to the ground, immobilize or otherwise subdue the opponent with a pin, or force the opponent to submit with a joint lock or a choke. Strikes and thrusts by hands and feet as well as weapons defences are a part of judo, but only in pre-arranged forms (kata, 形) and are not allowed in judo competition or free practice (randori, 乱取り). It was also referred to as Kanō Jiu-Jitsu until the introduction to the Olympic event. A judo practitioner is called a "judoka", and the judo uniform is called "judogi".

The philosophy and subsequent pedagogy developed for judo became the model for other modern Japanese martial arts that developed from koryū (古流, traditional schools). Judo also spawned a number of derivative martial arts across the world, such as Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Krav Maga, Sambo and ARB. Judo also influenced other combat styles such as close-quarters combat(CQC), mixed martial arts (MMA), shoot wrestling and submission wrestling._

However to say that a judo expert can’t kill you is false. 



			Teddy Riner is the mild-mannered Judo god who could kill you in 3 seconds if he wanted
		


You challenged me to find stories about murders or killings and committed by boxers. I can google pages of articles about just that. Many occurred in the ring. 









						Former Pro Boxer Whose Punch Once Killed a Man Is Now Accused of Murdering His Daughter
					

Kabary Salem is accused of killing his daughter, 25-year-old Ola Salem




					people.com
				












						Pro boxer Viviane Obenauf suspected of beating husband to death
					

A former professional boxer is a prime suspect in the bludgeoning murder of her husband, whose body was found inside their apartment in Switzerland. Brazil-born bruiser Viviane Obenauf, 34, is susp…




					nypost.com
				









						List of deaths due to injuries sustained in boxing - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Spears (javalina)are also used for hinting feral hog as in this video. Knives are also sued to hunt hogs. To say the only use of a knife is for killing is also laughable. 










						Boar Hunting With a Knife is Not for the Faint of Heart
					

If you really want to show that you're a tough and dedicated hunter... try boar hunting with a knife. That's a real no-nonsense way of taking down a hog.




					www.wideopenspaces.com


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## Man of Ethics (Oct 24, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> So you agree: >100,000 times per year for self-defense.
> Your source says so as well.
> 
> Now, the question you keep avoiding:
> ...


100,000 times a *simple assault* was stopped is very rare.

10,000 *murders* and 20,000 *suicides* is very many.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 25, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Laws requiring a permit to carry a concealed firearm are perfectly lawful and Constitutional, in no manner violating the Second Amendment:


Please cite the case where this was held by the USSC.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 25, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> 100,000 times a *simple assault* was stopped is very rare.
> 10,000 *murders* and 20,000 *suicides* is very many.


Now, the question you keep avoiding:
If the use of a firearm in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
What is more rare than "very rare"?


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## Abatis (Oct 25, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Please cite the case where this was held by the USSC.



"Held" is a different thing than the Court recognizing a particular condition of law . . .

SCOTUS *has* said the state and local laws forbidding concealed carry do not offend / violate the 2nd Amendment, _Heller_ being the most recent. 

_Heller_'s take is interesting because while the Court recognizes the long history of laws restricting concealed carry, it does not include those blanket laws in the opinion's famous statement listing examples of "presumptively lawful" restrictions on guns. including restrictions on carrying them, limiting that to "sensitive places":


"For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment  or state analogues.  See, _e.g._, _State_ v. _Chandler_, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; _Nunn_ v. _State_, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2  Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884).  Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."​

If the Court actually "held" that state and local laws forbidding concealed carry should be accepted as hard, settled law federally (post _McDonald_), the Court would not have accepted the NY carry case it is hearing on November 3rd -- after all, no state or local laws restricting concealed carry could possibly offend the 2nd Amendment could they?

What we should interpret those statements by the Court to mean is just the plain, uncontested legal fact that *THEN*, _when those statements of law were made_, the 2nd Amendment was not enforceable on those state or local laws . . . Now it is.


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## 2aguy (Oct 25, 2021)

Abatis said:


> "Held" is a different thing than the Court recognizing a particular condition of law . . .
> 
> SCOTUS *has* said the state and local laws forbidding concealed carry do not offend / violate the 2nd Amendment, _Heller_ being the most recent.
> 
> ...




*SCOTUS has said the state and local laws forbidding concealed carry do not offend / violate the 2nd Amendment, Heller being the most recent.

But that is only in the face of citizens being able to freely openly carry a gun......and the concealed carry restrictions can easily be seen as an actual point of view of the time...since everyone at the time was able to carry a gun in public.*

*The past belief was that good people carried their guns openly, and that criminals hid their guns......this is obviously not the same as today when normal people routinely carry a gun concealed...and can face a fine or loss of the ability to carry a gun if they openly carry it....*


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## Unkotare (Oct 25, 2021)

Anomalism said:


> My grandfather has guns hidden in every room of his house as well as in his vehicle and on his person while he's outside. He's never more than a few feet away from a lethal weapon. He knows how to use them too. God help anybody that tries to rob him.


Does he live in the Sudan?


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## Abatis (Oct 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> *The past belief was that good people carried their guns openly, and that criminals hid their guns......this is obviously not the same as today when normal people routinely carry a gun concealed...and can face a fine or loss of the ability to carry a gun if they openly carry it....*



True, I'll repeat here what *I said in the other thread*:

I think that this -concealed- vs -open- question is a good candidate for the Courts to apply the "modern condition" to the law we so often hear leftists whine about. Without question the sentiment regarding concealed arms has reversed. The modern, enlightened public and many arms bearers, reject open carry and now consider concealed carry to be the responsible and more respectful manner of carry, to the tender sensibilities of the public.


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## 2aguy (Oct 25, 2021)

Abatis said:


> True, I'll repeat here what *I said in the other thread*:
> 
> I think that this -concealed- vs -open- question is a good candidate for the Courts to apply the "modern condition" to the law we so often hear leftists whine about. Without question the sentiment regarding concealed arms has reversed. The modern, enlightened public and many arms bearers, reject open carry and now consider concealed carry to be the responsible and more respectful manner of carry, to the tender sensibilities of the public.




Keep posting......I enjoy reading your posts, and I can imagine the lefties here pulling their hair out....


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 25, 2021)

Abatis said:


> "Held" is a different thing than the Court recognizing a particular condition of law . . .


Right.
"Held" is what matters.
He cannot cite a USSC decision that held carry permits do not violate the constitution, and he knows it.


Abatis said:


> SCOTUS *has* said the state and local laws forbidding concealed carry do not offend / violate the 2nd Amendment, _Heller_ being the most recent.
> _Heller_'s take is interesting because while the Court recognizes the long history of laws restricting concealed carry, it does not include those blanket laws in the opinion's famous statement listing examples of "presumptively lawful" restrictions on guns. including restrictions on carrying them, limiting that to "sensitive places":


Correct.
_Heller _stuck every regulation in question before the court, it upheld exactly zero such regulations.

As you said - this is why the court accepted the appeal of the NY permit laws.


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## 2aguy (Oct 25, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Right.
> "Held" is what matters.
> He cannot cite a USSC decision that held carry permits do not violate the constitution, and he knows it.
> 
> ...



We hope….Thomas retiring or dying puts the court under the control of the democrats again if biden’s controllers pick his replacement.   This was why it was so important that Trump win.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> We hope….Thomas retiring or dying puts the court under the control of the democrats again if biden’s controllers pick his replacement.   This was why it was so important that Trump win.


Well, let's hope that doesn't happen.


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## Man of Ethics (Oct 25, 2021)

M14 Shooter said:


> Now, the question you keep avoiding:
> If the use of a firearm in self-defense is "very rare", the the use of a firearm for murder and suicide must then be even MORE rare.
> What is more rare than "very rare"?


My point is that 


> 100,000 times a *simple assault* was stopped is very rare.
> 10,000 *murders* and 20,000 *suicides* is very many.



Even if 500,000 times a *simple assault* was stopped is 
more rare then 
30,000 violent *deaths*.

Because *simple assault* is a much more common and less significant event.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 25, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> My point is that...


...you hate guns, regardless of th efact they are used in self-defense --far --more othen than to kill someone.
Yes.  We know.   Your irrational fear is well documented.


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## Dadoalex (Oct 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> They dont.  I have linked to the British police stating they cant stop the flood of illegal guns into Britain…..I have linked to  the fact that French and other European criminals use fully automatic rifles and grenades…….Sweden is having a major problem with violent gangs also using fully automatic rifles And grenades.
> 
> The cultural difference between U.S. and European criminals is the Europeans tend not to murder as often….but that is changing.  The immigrant gangs are
> More violent and are using guns to kill now.


How about linking to gun crime rates in those countries as compared to the US.
Add some beef to the veggieburger.


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## Dadoalex (Oct 25, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Target shooting involves physical fitness and is an exercise in concentration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ALL WEAPONS WERE DESIGNED FOR KILLING.
That's why they call them weapons.
GEEZ.

AND
No I challenged you to find stories of someone committing murders while boxing, fencing, etc.
People have died playing football but that doesn't mean a football is a weapon.
People have died playing basketball but basketballs are not weapons.

But, show me a person convicted of murdering another person with a football or basketball and maybe you have a point.
But, let's face it
Grasping for straws is not going to win the argument.
Admit that firearms are what they are.  A device with the singular purpose of killing.

Then try to make your arguments elsewhere.
This "oh but guns are useful for lots of things" crap flies nowhere.


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## Batcat (Oct 25, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> ALL WEAPONS WERE DESIGNED FOR KILLING.
> That's why they call them weapons.
> GEEZ.
> 
> ...


You challenged me to find stories where people were killed or murdered with by a boxer, a bow and arrow etc. I did. You lose.

Where you are going wrong is claiming that the only use of a firearm is for killing. You call a firearm “a device with the singular purpose of killing.“ 

Laying beside my iPad right now is a switchblade knife. You.could argue that a switchblade knife is “a device with the singular purpose of killing.” I have never killed anyone or anything with this knife but it has opened  countless cardboard boxes and cut and stripped wire. I could use it to slice a tomato or peel an apple but I don’t because I prefer to use a fixed blade knife for such tasks as they are easier to clean.  





There are more guns in our nation than people. If their only use was killing we probably would not have any one left alive in our nation and no animals either. 

Competition target pistols are very expensive and often fire a low powered round. They were designed to be extremely accurate tools for target shooting not to kill. 

Here is a competitive target pistol used in NRA Bullseye Competition and a review of the firearm. Note there is no mention of killing because accuracy is the primary design function.
’











						An Official Journal Of The NRA | A Look Back at the Smith & Wesson Model 41
					

In 1947, after 10 years of development and research, Smith & Wesson debuted what it believed to be the ultimate rimfire target pistol, the Model 41.




					www.americanrifleman.org


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## Dadoalex (Oct 26, 2021)

Batcat said:


> You challenged me to find stories where people were killed or murdered with by a boxer, a bow and arrow etc. I did. You lose.
> 
> Where you are going wrong is claiming that the only use of a firearm is for killing. You call a firearm “a device with the singular purpose of killing.“
> 
> ...


No, I challenged you to find a story where someone boxed (gloves, shorts, referee) a person to death outside of a boxing match, or judo match, or winter olympic event...

And what does it shoot?  lasers like at the arcade?
So, once again , provide a legitimate use for a firearm that does not involve killing WHICH INCLUDES PRACTICING KILLING.
You can do it!
And by that I mean you can NEVER do it!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Dr Grump (Oct 26, 2021)

Yee Haw....


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## Batcat (Oct 26, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> No, I challenged you to find a story where someone boxed (gloves, shorts, referee) a person to death outside of a boxing match, or judo match, or winter olympic event...
> 
> And what does it shoot?  lasers like at the arcade?
> So, once again , provide a legitimate use for a firearm that does not involve killing WHICH INCLUDES PRACTICING KILLING.
> ...


Here is your challenge. …



> As soon as you point out the murders committed by criminals using javelins or Olympic bows, or judo, or someone criminally boxing someone to death then you may have a point.



Where did you require I find a story where someone criminally boxed someone to death outside a boxing match with a referee present? How many illegal fights occur outside the ring with a referee present? Finding one example would be like finding a diamond ring in a cereal box. 

******

You offer me an excellent opportunity to take on your illogical anti-gun viewpoint that guns are only good for killing and I appreciate that. Thanks Much!

For today‘s debate I will use outside sources. Of course they will not change you mind but that is fine. Perhaps another person reading these posts will learn something or get interested in the sport of shooting. Notice I didn’t say. ,”The sport of killing.”





__





						The Noble Uses of Firearms by Alan Korwin
					





					www.gunlaws.com
				




*THE NOBLE USES OF FIREARMS*
Plus: Gun hatred and a gun-free world​*by Alan Korwin*

In the great din of the national firearms debate it's easy to lose sight of the noble and respectable place firearms hold and have always held in American life. While some gun use in America is criminal and despicable, other applications appeal to the highest ideals our society cherishes, and are enshrined in and ensured by the statutes on the books: 


Protecting your family in emergencies
Personal safety and self defense
Preventing and deterring crimes
Detaining criminals for arrest
Guarding our national borders
Preserving our interests abroad 
Helping defend our allies
Overcoming tyranny
International trade
Emergency preparedness
Commerce and employment
Historical preservation and study
Obtaining food by hunting 
Olympic competition
Collecting 
Sporting pursuits
Target practice 
Recreational shooting[/i]
***snip***

_So I ask again, do you hate guns, and wish they would just go away? You may be suffering from *hoplophobia*, the morbid fear of weapons. This can be treated -- just like fear of water or bugs or anything else -- but first it must be understood. Denying a phobia is one of the signs that you have it.

Read Dr. Sarah Thompson's careful, researched and clear explanation of what's behind gun fear. You may never want to own a gun -- many people do not -- but you owe it to yourself to understand the subject, and not be simply ruled by your fears._









						The Purpose of a Gun Is Not to Kill - Econlib
					

If the purpose of guns were to kill, cops would not be allowed to have them because, in civilized countries contrary to James Bond movies, they don’t have a license to kill. A tool or instrument, observed Friedrich Hayek, cannot be defined outside of human purposes. For example, the definition...



					www.econlib.org
				




*The Purpose of a Gun Is Not to Kill/b]
By:  Pierre Lemieux​
An automobile is, to quote Merriam-Webster again, an “automotive vehicle designed for passenger transportation.” People use it to go from point A to point B. Under this general purpose lie many specific ones. For many, A will be mainly their homes and B, their workplaces. Some, no doubt, will use their car to go and commit a bank robbery, and escape afterwards. For terrorists, the space between point A and point B may be any place where there are pedestrians to crush. Collectors and museums may even dispense with the transportation function, although the original purpose remains part of the attraction.

Now, consider a gun. The most general definition of Merriam-Webster is “a device that throws a projectile.” Some individuals may use the projectile-throwing power to kill—a killer-for-hire or a terrorist, for example. But most will use it for another purpose: to assure their own self-defense or to defend others against criminals, or even to protect their property or their customers’ property. Armored truck personnel carry guns as a disincentive to would-be robbers. When they own or carry a gun, some individuals are buying peace of mind, knowing that they have an efficient means of self-defense in case they ever need it. Collectors do not even use a gun to throw a projectile, but instead to showcase it.

The purpose of a gun is not generally to kill. A handgun is designed for self-defense at short distances. Hitting a target farther than 100 feet or even just 50 feet is difficult: by then, the bullet has lost much of its speed and energy, and dropped significantly. Although a handgun may kill or maim an aggressor, its purpose is to stop him, to stop the threat. Hence the discussion of the “stopping power” of caliber (diameter of the bullet) versus velocity.

Criminals use handguns to commit aggressions, as they can use cars to travel where their victims are. But killing is not the (general) purpose of a car, nor is it really that of a handgun. If one is intent on killing, a long gun (rifle or shotgun) is more convenient. In the state where I live (as I suspect in many other states), one may carry a loaded handgun in a car but not a long gun. The reason is that a long gun is not efficient for self-defense, especially in a confined place, while it would be very effective at ambushing somebody (or indiscriminately shooting people).

Even in the case of long guns, it is at misleading to state that the purpose is to kill—at least to kill another human. For many if not most owners of long guns, the purpose is to hunt animals or for protection against four-legged predators such as brown or white bears. Even if many owners of long guns probably think that they could come handy during civil (or government) disturbances, the main purpose would remain to stop the threat, not necessarily to kill the threatening individuals.

Thus, the purpose of guns is not to kill, except in particular, and often criminal, circumstances. The purpose of a gun is to neutralize threats and deter aggressors. Even if we assume that allowing guns results in more murders than banning them (which I don’t think is supported by available evidence), it does not follow that government should ban them, whether abruptly or stealthily. We encounter here the general problem of cost-benefit analysis: What allows us to say that preventing the possible killing of some unknown Mr. and Mrs. X in the future is worth more than prohibiting a known Miss Y from owning or carrying a gun for self-defense hic et nunc?*


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## Dadoalex (Oct 27, 2021)

Batcat said:


> Here is your challenge. …
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BECAUSE
IDIOT
Boxing outside the ring is called battery.  It is not boxing.
Same with all your other "Proofs"

A firearm can be used many ways ala Three Stooges.
But when a firearm is pointed and the trigger pulled it is being used as intended, to  kill.

All you've done is confirm the hypothesis.


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## Batcat (Oct 27, 2021)

Dadoalex said:


> BECAUSE
> IDIOT
> Boxing outside the ring is called battery.  It is not boxing.
> Same with all your other "Proofs"
> ...



Fighters have been killed while boxing in the ring. 









						10 Fighters Who Died in The Ring – Tragic Boxing Deaths
					

Here, we remember 10 fighters who tragically died in the ring or from injuries sustained during their fights throughout boxing history.




					www.casino.org
				




_It’s estimated that between 1890 and 2011, 1,604 boxers lost their lives as a direct result of injuries sustained in the ring, with that working out at an average of 13 per year._



> But when a firearm is pointed and the trigger pulled it is being used as intended, to  kill.



So when I point my target pistol at a bullseye target 25 yards away and pull the trigger I am killing??? You really should look up the definition of the word “kill.”









						Definition of kill | Dictionary.com
					

Kill definition, to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.  See more.




					www.dictionary.com
				






> A firearm can be used many ways ala Three Stooges.



You original argument was the purpose of a gun is only to kill as you stated in post #169 where you were asking me why I own more than one gun. Now you say a firearm can be used in many ways. You just destroyed your argument. 



> What use is more than one?
> and since those purposes are only to kill
> again
> Why more than one?


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## SavannahMann (Oct 28, 2021)

I’m sure you have notice that there are as many opinions as people. Here is mine. 

1) Join USCCA or similar. They will provide materials for your study and access to a lawyer if God Forbid you ever have to pull your weapon in self defense. 

2) Think about it now. The various scenarios that you can imagine. What standards will you employ. For me. First is presence of a weapon. No weapon for the baddie means no draw for me. 

3) Remember that your intention is defensive. Don’t charge towards the sound of gunfire. Especially in public. The cops will almost certainly mistake you for a bad guy and perforate you. 

4) Consider your daily routine. An inside the waistband holster is good. Unless you need the firearm while belted into your car seat. Then it is a little tricky to deploy Sam Colt. A shoulder holster is slower to draw from but easier to conceal and accessible while sitting in the car. 

5) Find a balance between firepower and conceal capability. I personally usually go with a Ruger SP-101. A five shot revolver loaded with .357 Magnum. Yes I only have five shots. But those five shots are very effective if I can hit the baddie. 

6) Never draw on a drawn gun. If he has you at gunpoint. Wait. Do not go for your gun. Wait until his attention is somewhere else and then draw. 

7) Do not talk to the police. Get a lawyer. Get a lawyer. Get a fucking lawyer. This is where USCCA comes in handy. Call their 800 number and they’ll send a lawyer to you. Yes. It will take longer. But it will save you a lot of headache later. 

8) Practice. Practice carrying until you can do it without touching the piece every few seconds to check it. Do so until you are comfortable with it. Practice drawing the weapon until you can do so with your eyes closed. And practice putting the weapon away. 

9) Think. Think about everything now. If you are pulled over by the cops. Do not lean out the window shouting. “I have a gun”. He will shoot you. I personally keep my license behind by drivers license. I hand the cop both. This lets him know I am legally allowed to be armed. And am armed now. Think things through now and avoid the panic later. 

There is no perfect gun. Nor a type of gun. Semi auto and revolvers both have strengths and weaknesses. The more you learn the better informed your choice will be. I own both. And have both available for CC. The situation and clothing will often determine the choice of weapon. 

Finally. Never assume that everyone around you believes you are a good guy with a gun. They will probably think you are a bad guy with a gun. So do whatever you can to avoid the misunderstanding. Don’t pull it unless you believe you really need it. If the cops are there don’t pull it. Don’t make the mistake of thinking you are a hero. They get dead or tried for their actions. It is to defend you and your family.


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