# Afghan Newlyweds Stoned To Death



## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?hp

I don't even know where to begin.  Some of the people throwing stones were members of their own families.  How is this even possible?


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## The Infidel (Aug 16, 2010)

Hmmm.... could it be 




SATAN? ​


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## LuckyDan (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe they shouldn't have been there to begin with?


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?hp
> 
> I don't even know where to begin.  Some of the people throwing stones were members of their own families.  How is this even possible?



B-b-but...violence is a rarity in Islam!

Except, of course, where Islam has eliminated all mitigating influence and is allowed to be fully itself...


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 16, 2010)

Islam, a religion of peace. Just keep saying that while you and others make excuses for their actions, all SANCTIONED by their religious leaders.

The RELIGION is the problem. It teaches people to behave this way. It teaches them that only Islam is acceptable. It teaches them to treat women like property. To murder people that disobey religious edicts.

All of you dumb asses that keep claiming only a small part of Islam is dangerous explain why you can not understand they want us converted or dead by ANY means. They murder their own people for MARRYING each other. They murder women for daring to go in public without a male family member escorting them. They murder their own FAMILY members when ordered to by Islamic clerics.

Yet you have a problem understanding how they could murder unbelievers, How they could lie to unbelievers. You all need to WAKE the FUCK UP.


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## The Infidel (Aug 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Islam, a religion of peace. Just keep saying that while you and others make excuses for their actions, all SANCTIONED by their religious leaders.
> 
> The RELIGION is the problem. It teaches people to behave this way. It teaches them that only Islam is acceptable. It teaches them to treat women like property. To murder people that disobey religious edicts.
> 
> ...


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## Kat (Aug 16, 2010)

> People were very happy seeing this, Mr. Khan maintained, saying the crowd was festive and cheered during the stoning. The couple, he said, did a bad thing.


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## The Infidel (Aug 16, 2010)

Kat said:


> > People were very happy seeing this, Mr. Khan maintained, saying the crowd was festive and cheered during the stoning. The couple, he said, did a bad thing.



Celebrating death.... just plain sick!


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## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

Look, I didn't post this so that anti-Muslim bigotry could get another hearing.  In fact, I have known about it all day and hesitated to post it because I was afraid of that very thing.  I don't claim to have any great understanding of the Muslim religion, but even I can see this happened because of the Taliban and not because the people were Muslims.

I read some of this shit written on here and can so clearly remember the adults around me, discarding the possibility than North Vietnamese, or blacks, or Puerto Ricans, or Italians, ad nauseum, were as human as you and me.  I reacted then as I do now:  my skin crawls as I hear yet another person assign a group to the human dump because they are "too different".

So, if it is at all possible could we please discuss why this happened?  Can anything be done to change this culture?  Should the US leave Afghanistan while women's rights are so endangered?


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## syrenn (Aug 16, 2010)

Only men doing the stoning? Amazing. And just think they want to being Shariah law here. Will this all be part of the "cultural center" in NYC too?

What is wrong with these people.


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

Yeah, this stuff NEVER happens in "civilized" Muslim countries...like Darfur, the Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, or Iran.

Because it's all about the Taliban. Not about Islam at ALL.

Face the facts. Islam works to fit in until such time as it acquires enough power to squelch all other doctrines and political parties, establish sharia, and reveal it's true face.


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

syrenn said:


> Only men doing the stoning? Amazing. And just think they want to being Shariah law here. Will this all be part of the "cultural center" in NYC too?
> 
> What is wrong with these people.



They're animals.
And they don't deserve protection. They deserve censure and, when warranted, death.


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Look, I didn't post this so that anti-Muslim bigotry could get another hearing.  In fact, I have known about it all day and hesitated to post it because I was afraid of that very thing.  I don't claim to have any great understanding of the Muslim religion, but even I can see this happened because of the Taliban and not because the people were Muslims.
> 
> I read some of this shit written on here and can so clearly remember the adults around me, discarding the possibility than North Vietnamese, or blacks, of Puerto Ricans, or Italians, ad nauseum, were as human as you and me.  I reacted then as I do now:  my skin crawls as I hear yet another person assign a group to the human dump because they are "too different".
> 
> So, if it is at all possible could we please discuss why this happened?  Can anything be done to change this culture?  Should the US leave Afghanistan while women's rights are so endangered?



You are BEYOND stupid. ISLAM is EXACTLY why it happened. Not the Taliban. Hell read your own story, A Muslim cleric not even a follower of the Taliban AGREED that the proper response for unsanctioned sex ( marriage) IS STONING.

The RELIGION is the reason the ruling was made and it was MADE by ISLAMIC Clerics. Followed and carried out by ISLAMIC followers.

Good god the abject STUPIDITY and IGNORANCE is APPALLING. 

It does NOT just happen in Afghanistan. It happens in Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, and even in Canada , the USA, and Europe. And what is the common denominator? THE RELIGION.


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## syrenn (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Look, I didn't post this so that anti-Muslim bigotry could get another hearing.  In fact, I have known about it all day and hesitated to post it because I was afraid of that very thing.  I don't claim to have any great understanding of the Muslim religion, but even I can see this happened because of the Taliban and not because the people were Muslims.
> 
> I read some of this shit written on here and can so clearly remember the adults around me, discarding the possibility than North Vietnamese, or blacks, of Puerto Ricans, or Italians, ad nauseum, were as human as you and me.  I reacted then as I do now:  my skin crawls as I hear yet another person assign a group to the human dump because they are "too different".
> 
> So, if it is at all possible could we please discuss why this happened?  *Can anything be done to change this culture?  *Should the US leave Afghanistan while women's rights are so endangered?



It is a culture of men.
Men who have ordered a world to suit their needs.
It is a perverted version of their religion.

Yes, we should leave them to kill each other. If they want change then they should stand up and do something about it themselves.


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## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

WTF did anyone get stoned to death in the US?????

Leave aside the bickering a moment, RetiredGySgt.  This didn't happen in secret.  Aren't US troops there, engaging in "nation building"?  Why didn't they prevent this?


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

In the US it's honor killings, nitwit. And abduction.


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xs7oKrG7Pc]YouTube - Girl's dying words after daddy shot her (very sad)[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j8WLzZmAtk]YouTube - U.S. Muslim Beheads Wife. Sharia Law and Honor Killings in America, What's Next![/ame]


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## The Infidel (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe what Madeline was trying to ask is..... Can we change the culture militarliy.

I think there needs to be an awakening in Islam itself.

The American soldiers cant stop what they dont know about.... The villagers need to stop it themselves. We cant be everywhere to stop all the badguys from doing what they do.

This has got to be done by the Afghan people themselves. 

We cant change the hearts and minds of anyone no sooner than a pretty girl can change a "badboy". The badboy has to want to change himself for the better....thats the only way he will change.

As long as people stay in the 5th century... they will behave in that way, and never learn to be a part of civilization.


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> WTF did anyone get stoned to death in the US?????
> 
> Leave aside the bickering a moment, RetiredGySgt.  This didn't happen in secret.  Aren't US troops there, engaging in "nation building"?  Why didn't they prevent this?



Here in the US Fathers have murdered their daughters because of Islam. Just with in the last year there was a major story about a father that ran his daughter over cause she wouldn't dress and act the way he felt was proper within the religion.

Any major hub of Muslim immigrants has similar stories. They just don't make major headlines.

YOUR OWN STORY pointed out that Muslim Clerics NOT Taliban members agreed that stoning to death was the proper punishment for unsanctioned sex ( as in unsanctioned marriage).

YOUR story pointed out that MUSLIMS even family members participated in the RELIGIOUS edict to stone the Couple.


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNLumvrNBTQ]YouTube - Another muslim honor killing in America -[/ame]


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## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

The Taliban's interpretation of the Koran authorizes not just death by stoning, but also amputation and other unbelievable punishments...and for acts that I doubt many Westerners can comprehend as "crimes".  This is not a "cultural divide" where the two cultures put the age of consent in different places.  It seems to me this is the difference between barbarianism and human decency.

Why can't we apply enough pressure to the Afghan government to _at least_  outlaw such horrific punishments?


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OtfOmGYH6w&feature=related]YouTube - Muslim honor killing of 16yr old Aqsa Parvez in America[/ame]


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTNdQOaW0pI&feature=related]YouTube - Honor killing in Georgia when muslim daughter no longer wants arranged marriage.[/ame]


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## syrenn (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> The Taliban's interpretation of the Koran authorizes not just death by stoning, but also amputation and other unbelievable punishments...and for acts that I doubt many Westerners can comprehend as "crimes".  This is not a "cultural divide" where the two cultures put the age of consent in different places.  It seems to me this is the difference between barbarianism and human decency.
> 
> Why can't we apply enough pressure to the Afghan government to _at least_  outlaw such horrific punishments?




 Castrate all male children at birth and it will eventually fix the problem.


Your dreaming Madeline, your dreaming. WE cant change THEM. THEY need to change for themselves.


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## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

I am aware some murders are committed for religious reasons, Allie.  I just rather doubt you can find any murders by _stoning_  in the US.

I realize all murder victims die, but stoning has to be an especially horrific death...and to have your own family involved, I just cannot imagine.


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> The Taliban's interpretation of the Koran authorizes not just death by stoning, but also amputation and other unbelievable punishments...and for acts that I doubt many Westerners can comprehend as "crimes".  This is not a "cultural divide" where the two cultures put the age of consent in different places.  It seems to me this is the difference between barbarianism and human decency.
> 
> Why can't we apply enough pressure to the Afghan government to _at least_  outlaw such horrific punishments?



I REPEAT, NON Taliban Clerics of the Muslim faith AGREE that stoning is the APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT for unsanctioned sex. In this case the two got married but it was not sanctioned by the local Clerics or family. Thus they had unsanctioned sex. ISLAM condemns that and provides that STONING is the proper punishment. NOT just in Afghanistan.


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

I see. You think the honor killings are okay. Got it.


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## AllieBaba (Aug 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > The Taliban's interpretation of the Koran authorizes not just death by stoning, but also amputation and other unbelievable punishments...and for acts that I doubt many Westerners can comprehend as "crimes".  This is not a "cultural divide" where the two cultures put the age of consent in different places.  It seems to me this is the difference between barbarianism and human decency.
> ...



She won't bite, because it draws attention to the fact that Islam is innately violent, and if she admits that, she has to admit she supports that violence. Which of course she does.

See her pooh-poohing the honor killings, and the way she avoids attributing them to Islam but rather calls them "religious" killings, implying of course that Christians do the same thing.


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## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > The Taliban's interpretation of the Koran authorizes not just death by stoning, but also amputation and other unbelievable punishments...and for acts that I doubt many Westerners can comprehend as "crimes".  This is not a "cultural divide" where the two cultures put the age of consent in different places.  It seems to me this is the difference between barbarianism and human decency.
> ...



That just _cannot_  be right, RetiredGySgt.  And while we're discussing this, how did you gain all this expertise on the Muslim religion?

Hopefully, you have done more than listen to Glenn Beck rant.


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Look, I didn't post this so that anti-Muslim bigotry could get another hearing.  In fact, I have known about it all day and hesitated to post it because I was afraid of that very thing.  I don't claim to have any great understanding of the Muslim religion, but even I can see this happened because of the Taliban and not because the people were Muslims.
> 
> I read some of this shit written on here and can so clearly remember the adults around me, discarding the possibility than North Vietnamese, or blacks, or Puerto Ricans, or Italians, ad nauseum, were as human as you and me.  I reacted then as I do now:  my skin crawls as I hear yet another person assign a group to the human dump because they are "too different".
> 
> So, if it is at all possible could we please discuss why this happened?  Can anything be done to change this culture?  Should the US leave Afghanistan while women's rights are so endangered?



Just because someone points out that Muslims are carrying out these atrocities in the name of Islam and Sharia law does not mean they are bigoted against Muslims, it just means they recognize the dangers of the attitude that Islam is a religion of peace and that only radical Muslims do things like this.

If this was just the Taliban the entire village where this couple was from would not have participated.

If this was just the Taliban their neighbors would have stood up for a young couple in love, and not cheered their barbaric deaths.

If this was just the Taliban the children of that village would have been hidden away by their parents, not out in the village square witnessing this and celebrating.

What you have to realize is that the problem is not that radicals are trying to usurp Islam, the problem is that Islam supports radicals. I fully support the right of everyone on the planet to believe whatever they want to, but I also know that some beliefs are inherently dangerous. You would not sit in front of your computer and argue that someone who was trying to bring back the practice of human sacrifice has a right to practice their religion, so why do you argue that everyone has the right to practice Islam the way they want?

Until Islam cleanses itself of the radicals and every Muslim speaks up, and out, against things like this Islam will be the enemy of civilization. Christianity had to do it, now Islam must follow the example laid down by people like Martin Luther. Until Islam is reformed I will not trust Muslims, because they demonstrate every time something like this happens that they do not trust me.


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## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

AllieBaba said:


> I see. You think the honor killings are okay. Got it.



Allie, get a fucking grip.  When have I ever said murder was okay?


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> WTF did anyone get stoned to death in the US?????
> 
> Leave aside the bickering a moment, RetiredGySgt.  This didn't happen in secret.  Aren't US troops there, engaging in "nation building"?  Why didn't they prevent this?



Perhaps because Obama has sanctioned pulling them out of the rural areas, thus leaving those areas open for the Taliban to do things like this. Believe it or not, the military has a tradition of following the orders of the President. If you have a problem with them not stopping things like this perhaps you should call him up and explain why the military needs to prevent things like this.


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## Madeline (Aug 16, 2010)

I honestly don't know how I feel, Quantum Windbag.  I want the wars to end and our soldiers to come home.  I want peace in Afghanistan.  I want the Taliban eradicated.  If the situation is truely hopeless, I see no point in expending American lives there, postponing the inevitable.

Mostly, I just feel shocked and saddened.


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## Againsheila (Aug 16, 2010)

Madeline said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?hp
> 
> I don't even know where to begin.  Some of the people throwing stones were members of their own families.  How is this even possible?



They must be so happy the Americans came to rescue them.....


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## hipeter924 (Aug 17, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Look, I didn't post this so that anti-Muslim bigotry could get another hearing.  In fact, I have known about it all day and hesitated to post it because I was afraid of that very thing.  I don't claim to have any great understanding of the Muslim religion, but even I can see this happened because of the Taliban and not because the people were Muslims.
> ...


Agree totally but with leaders like Obama in power in the west it will have to start in the middle east and not here as the left and center-left hates western civilization so much that they will work hard to accommodate and cultivate terrorism and hatred here as much as possible.


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## Madeline (Aug 17, 2010)

Christ onna cracker, you're a one trick pony hipeter.  Everything is Obama's fault, everything will be okay when he leaves office, blah blah blah.  

Thankies for playing.  

How does someone become a Muslim cleric?  Since they have no central authority, who decides who gets to be an Iman etc.?


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## georgephillip (Aug 17, 2010)

Prior the the Arab - Israeli war in June of 1967 arguably the most serious conflict in the Muslim world was between the forces of radical Islamic Fundamentalism, centered where the oil was/is (Saudi Arabia) and secular Arab nationalism which was largely associated with Nasser's Egypt.

Both Muslim states were fighting a proxy war in Yemen at that time. and "(t)he United States and Britain were supporting radical Islamic fundamentalism; in fact, they've rather consistently done that - supporting Saudi Arabia."

"And Nasserite secular nationalism was considered a serious threat, because it was recognized that it might seek to take control of the immense resources of the region and use them for regional interest, rather than allow them to be centrally controlled and exploited by the United States and it allies..."

Devote Christians might also re-read their Old Testament's advice to fathers' of "adulterous" daughters before casting any stones at today's Muslims.

Noam Chomsky: The Real Reasons...


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## johnrocks (Aug 17, 2010)

This is awful but I gotta ask, if so many thinks that  most Muslims are this bad, why are we even involving ourselves so much in those regions to begin with?  I know we need to find OBL and bring those responsible for 9-11 to justice but we were  in Muslim countries well before then.


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## hipeter924 (Aug 17, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Christ onna cracker, you're a one trick pony hipeter.  Everything is Obama's fault, everything will be okay when he leaves office, blah blah blah.
> 
> Thankies for playing.
> 
> How does someone become a Muslim cleric?  Since they have no central authority, who decides who gets to be an Iman etc.?


It will, the deficit will go down, taxes will be cut and the economy will improve and the Republicans will stop Obama's policy of Europeanization that is stuffing up America so bad right now such as Obama's health care plan and nationalization agenda. 

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, the Republicans will either pull out altogether (on the timetable Bush made and Obama stole) or get the money and troops together to actually win, which is something Democrats are to date totally incapable of.


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## Toro (Aug 17, 2010)

500 years ago, Christians burned witches at the stake.

Parts of the world are still 500 years ago.


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## Madeline (Aug 17, 2010)

Europeanization?


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 17, 2010)

Toro said:


> 500 years ago, Christians burned witches at the stake.
> 
> Parts of the world are still 500 years ago.



Major parts of the Muslim world want to stay in that time.


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## Tank (Aug 17, 2010)

I got stoned on my honeymoon too.


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## Samson (Aug 17, 2010)

Toro said:


> 500 years ago, Christians burned witches at the stake.
> 
> Parts of the world are still 500 years ago.



Yep, it should only take 8 more years, and $700B, then Afganistan should be ready to enter the 19th century.

Well?

Does our military have anything better to do?


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## AquaAthena (Aug 17, 2010)

Madeline said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?hp
> 
> I don't even know where to begin.  Some of the people throwing stones were members of their own families.  How is this even possible?



A pitiful barbarism I cannot comprehend. My heart breaks at man's inhumanity to man.


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## georgephillip (Aug 17, 2010)

The "thinking man's soldier" stated: "We can not kill or capture our way out of an industrial strength insurgency" while pointing out it would be "a number of years" before Afghans can manage on their own.

What he didn't volunteer and what the hypocrites on the Senate committee he was appearing before didn't ask is how long would war exist if it earned no profits for Wall Street?

The US elites apparently believe they can use tools like Petraeus and Obama to lay the foundation for long-term occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan modeled on those in Korea, Japan, and Germany.

US taxpayers/voters would have to FLUSH the US Congress of all Republicans AND Democrats and then impose a 100% Death Tax on all war profits in order to bring the American Empire home.

And then the hard part starts...

Petraeus Warns It Could be Years...


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## islam4ever (Sep 18, 2010)

The couple were behaving like western sex dogs. Their highly immoral behaviour was rightly punished in line with Sharia. It is better to do this than allow them to spread their AIDS.


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## Colin (Sep 18, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> The couple were behaving like western sex dogs. Their highly immoral behaviour was rightly punished in line with Sharia. It is better to do this than allow them to spread their AIDS.



I seem to be forever reading of muslim men who claim they have the right to rape western women, because they were asking for it by dressing as they do. You fucking hypocritical excuse for a human being. Seems muslim males like walking the two way street. Do as we say...not as we do. I spit on pigs like you!


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## 007 (Sep 18, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Mostly, I just feel shocked and saddened.



Good. That's the first step. It means the truth of the matter is finally starting to sink in. Islam is a horrible, filthy, bloody, violent, murderous bastard religion. The sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.


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## 007 (Sep 18, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> The couple were behaving like western sex dogs. Their highly immoral behaviour was rightly punished in line with Sharia. It is better to do this than allow them to spread their AIDS.



And I hope you die next, so that there's one less shit stain on earth that thinks the way you do.


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## camcooh2 (Sep 18, 2010)

This crime, if true, is truly horrendous. How insanely backwards are these diaper heads? There probably aren't enough teeth in the whole village to make up one normal dental patient. And what is this crazy sex obsession these guys have? I don't understand but I suspect the camels are in at least as much danger as the women.


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## islam4ever (Sep 18, 2010)

Colin said:


> islam4ever said:
> 
> 
> > The couple were behaving like western sex dogs. Their highly immoral behaviour was rightly punished in line with Sharia. It is better to do this than allow them to spread their AIDS.
> ...



So what if I have white girlfriends for sex?

I will not be marrying them, since they are not Muslim.


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## Colin (Sep 18, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> > islam4ever said:
> ...



So, you admit you are a rapist, huh!


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## islam4ever (Sep 18, 2010)

Ha!

No, they like me because I am better at sex than white men.


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## camcooh2 (Sep 18, 2010)

Anybody can claim to be a Muslim having sex with white girls when it's obvious those toothless rascals have a big problem getting any no matter where they live. I think there are some not particularly convincing agent provocateurs around trying to stir things up.


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## rdean (Sep 18, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Islam, a religion of peace. Just keep saying that while you and others make excuses for their actions, all SANCTIONED by their religious leaders.
> 
> The RELIGION is the problem. It teaches people to behave this way. It teaches them that only Islam is acceptable. It teaches them to treat women like property. To murder people that disobey religious edicts.
> 
> ...



You are being disingenuous or you're an idiot.  Our laws are the ONLY thing that keeps such things from happening here AND YOU KNOW IT.

It the Christians here weren't held back by our laws, feminists would somehow be made an "example" to other women.  Gays would be publicly and gleefully executed.

The problem here is Afghanistan is a primitive country.  They were doing this before we went there and they will do it after we leave.  Only their own people can stop what happens there.  And us being there means they will never change.  We are different.  We are the enemy.

Besides, now that the Republican supported Iraqi Constitution is in place making "Sharia" THE law, you are going to see more and more of that happening in Iraq.  It's unavoidable.  You have already seen it with woman and the gays.  

Many American Christians aren't particularly concerned with what happens to the women, because women are supposed to be subservient to men, according to the Bible.  As far as the gays being murdered, how many in this country see that as a plus?  Seriously?

We've done nothing to change Afghanistan and won't.  We should declare victory for, well, uh, we could say we chased Bin Laden around a little bit and showed how strong we are, and then come home.

And fuck Iraq.  We got rid of Saddam and replaced his secular government with  a far right wing religious theocracy that now hates our guts, enslaves it's women, kills it's gays and chases it's Christians out of the country.  Let's declare victory and come home.

Notice how Republicans brought this same type of success to the economy?  To the environment?  To the Justice System?  To education?  Live by ideology, die by ideology.


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## hipeter924 (Sep 18, 2010)

> Notice how Republicans brought this same type of success to the economy?   To the environment?  To the Justice System?  To education?  Live by  ideology, die by ideology.


You blame this on Republican's after Obama has nearly destroyed the US economy bringing in money from China for his health care plan, and to feed his campaign donors?

You blame the Republicans for ruining the environment when it was under Bill Clinton, Obama and the Democrats that legislation was passed to stop people growing their own food, and legislating an elite group of corporations to control all agriculture in the US occurred?

You blame the Republicans for the state of the US education system when Democrats equally did nothing (if not less) during their time in office?

Finally you blame the Republicans for a bad justice system when you appoint radical Islam loving, western hating, constitution violators to judge the rights and liberties of the American people?

Where do you live, or rather where do you want to live? 






Likely you live (or want to live) in the communist delusion they call Cuba.


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## rdean (Sep 18, 2010)

hipeter924 said:


> > Notice how Republicans brought this same type of success to the economy?   To the environment?  To the Justice System?  To education?  Live by  ideology, die by ideology.
> 
> 
> You blame this on Republican's after Obama has nearly destroyed the US economy bringing in money from China for his health care plan, and to feed his campaign donors?
> ...



*You guys have got to do better.  It was under Bush and the Republicans that millions of American jobs moved to China, making that "communist/socialist" country stronger and ours weaker.  THINK ABOUT THAT!  THINK HARD!*


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## Againsheila (Sep 18, 2010)

rdean said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> > > Notice how Republicans brought this same type of success to the economy?   To the environment?  To the Justice System?  To education?  Live by  ideology, die by ideology.
> ...



It was Clinton who signed Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 18, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> The couple were behaving like western sex dogs. Their highly immoral behaviour was rightly punished in line with Sharia. It is better to do this than allow them to spread their AIDS.



If only I thought you were not deliberately trying to make Islam look bad by acting like an idiot.


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## daveman (Sep 18, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> The couple were behaving like western sex dogs. Their highly immoral behaviour was rightly punished in line with Sharia. It is better to do this than allow them to spread their AIDS.



*checks calendar*

It's the 21st Century, dood.  Set your clock forward 1400 years.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Life is cheap in Afghanistan.

God, the fucking Taliban sucks.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Look, I didn't post this so that anti-Muslim bigotry could get another hearing.



You mean you thought it would turn out any other way?

That's cute.


----------



## rdean (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > hipeter924 said:
> ...



That's what you come up with from thinking hard?  Nixon also signed agreements with China.  So?  What does that have to do with shipping American jobs to China?  The jobs went there under Bush.  Think hard now.  Bush.


----------



## Samson (Sep 19, 2010)

rdean said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Yes, let's not for a moment forget your boogieman


_*BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSH!!!*_


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 19, 2010)

rdean said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Prior to Permanent Normal Trade Relations, it had to be voted on every year.  Think about that real hard now.....

Quit worshiping the dems and realize that we've been sold out by both the reps and the dems....then maybe, just maybe we can start getting people into government would will actually help our country and save our jobs.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



His universe doesn't involve truth or facts.


----------



## islam4ever (Sep 20, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with stoning the morally corrupt. The Afghans were right to do it. They followed the will of Allah.


----------



## camcooh2 (Sep 21, 2010)

Is it true Mohammed was a pedaphile?


----------



## Cal (Sep 21, 2010)

"U.S. Message Board" should be renamed to, "We Hate Muslims Board". I swear, never before have I seen such hatred towards a religion. How about just condemn the stoning and move on? Why the fuck do you have to exploit this horrible event to jump on a religion? We all know you hate Muslims. Including the 10 million serving in our military.. Fighting for your freedom to be a bigoted asshole.

Horrible event.. Amazing that humans can do that to other humans. Whether that be christians, muslims or any other religion.


----------



## manifold (Sep 21, 2010)

Madeline said:


> WTF did anyone get stoned to death in the US?????
> 
> Leave aside the bickering a moment, RetiredGySgt.  This didn't happen in secret.  Aren't US troops there, engaging in "nation building"?  *Why didn't they prevent this*?



Prolly because their General was preoccupied worrying about someone burning a book back in the states at the time.


----------



## manifold (Sep 21, 2010)

YoungLefty said:


> "U.S. Message Board" should be renamed to, "We Hate Muslims Board". I swear, never before have I seen such hatred towards a religion. How about just condemn the stoning and move on? Why the fuck do you have to exploit this horrible event to jump on a religion? We all know you hate Muslims. *Including the 10 million serving in our military*.. Fighting for your freedom to be a bigoted asshole.
> 
> Horrible event.. Amazing that humans can do that to other humans. Whether that be christians, muslims or any other religion.




10 million Muslims in our military huh?

I'm sure you can validate that with a credible link.


----------



## Cal (Sep 21, 2010)

manifold said:


> YoungLefty said:
> 
> 
> > "U.S. Message Board" should be renamed to, "We Hate Muslims Board". I swear, never before have I seen such hatred towards a religion. How about just condemn the stoning and move on? Why the fuck do you have to exploit this horrible event to jump on a religion? We all know you hate Muslims. *Including the 10 million serving in our military*.. Fighting for your freedom to be a bigoted asshole.
> ...



Thousand*
Just woke up. Leave me alone!


----------



## manifold (Sep 21, 2010)

YoungLefty said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > YoungLefty said:
> ...



well, shedding 3 zeros brings the claim back to plausibility from ridiculous hyperbole, but I'd still need a credible link before I believe it's even 10 thousand.


----------



## manifold (Sep 21, 2010)

For the record, I don't hate Muslims.

But I do despise Islam.


----------



## islam4ever (Sep 21, 2010)

For the record I don't hate Americans, but I do despise American foreign policy.

Moreover, I find it laughable and funny to see the Americans shed tears over 911 but fail to see what they have done in Iraq is equivalent to 10,000 911s.

Until the Americans stop terrorising and murdering others, it is only logical that they cannot expect to be safe.

Thankfully, the USA now has a Muslim president. Husain Obama should seek to withdraw fully from Iraq and start the process of talks with the Taliban. I would like to see the Americans engage in talks with the Taliban on equal terms.

As for the USAs stance on Iran, I support it. America should not hesitate about attacking those Shia fanatics, who threaten the Sunni world. Of course, this will also help Israel, but Iran is a bigger evil.


----------



## islam4ever (Sep 21, 2010)

daveman said:


> islam4ever said:
> 
> 
> > The couple were behaving like western sex dogs. Their highly immoral behaviour was rightly punished in line with Sharia. It is better to do this than allow them to spread their AIDS.
> ...



Immorality MUST be punished. This is the way of Sharia.


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## hipeter924 (Sep 21, 2010)

manifold said:


> For the record, I don't hate Muslims.
> 
> But I do despise Islam.


Be quiet! Or you will get the invented word Islamophobia slammed down your throat and your freedom of speech squashed because many in the left want to create a world where only they have the right to speak an opinion. You could call it being sentenced to death like Socrates, since the left hates western culture so passionately.


----------



## islam4ever (Sep 21, 2010)

hipeter924 said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > For the record, I don't hate Muslims.
> ...



If Islamophobia is a fear of Islam, then I hope it strikes all those who fight Islam.


----------



## hipeter924 (Sep 21, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...


I don't fear Islam. In fact I am totally unapologetic about western culture. You can by all means destroy buildings, entire western nations even, but western culture can devastate even Islam. I doubt I am the only one pointing out that you could win Europe, only to lose Mecca and all of the middle east to western culture and secularization, thus for every battle you win in the west you lose one against secular Muslims in the middle east


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## camcooh2 (Sep 22, 2010)

There are actually 300 million muslims in the armed forces at this time. A lot of people don't know that.


----------



## islam4ever (Sep 22, 2010)

hipeter924 said:


> islam4ever said:
> 
> 
> > hipeter924 said:
> ...



American Culture is an oxymoron. It is therefore impossible to destroy it.


----------



## Godboy (Sep 23, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> > islam4ever said:
> ...



Yet somehow its still vastly superior to the Islamic culture. Strange how that works. Islam must suck somethin fierce.


----------



## camcooh2 (Sep 24, 2010)

Apparently the diaper-heads have learned how to use computers.


----------



## Douger (Sep 24, 2010)

Madeline said:


> WTF did anyone get stoned to death in the US?????
> 
> Leave aside the bickering a moment, RetiredGySgt.  This didn't happen in secret.  Aren't US troops there, engaging in "nation building"?  Why didn't they prevent this?


Jim Morrison.........oooops . He was in France at the time, socializing with socialists.
As far as the heroes in uniform, they were out hunting civilians..


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## Kalam (Sep 24, 2010)

camcooh2 said:


> Apparently the diaper-heads have learned how to use computers.



You're their leader, I take it?


----------



## Marc39 (Sep 24, 2010)

Kalam said:


> camcooh2 said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently the diaper-heads have learned how to use computers.
> ...



You're what's in the diaper, Mahoundian.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > camcooh2 said:
> ...



I'm a head?


----------



## Marc39 (Sep 24, 2010)

islam4ever said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> > islam4ever said:
> ...



Your subculture hasnt even transitioned out of the Middle Ages.

You worship a fake prophet who was a pedophile.  Sucker!


----------



## Marc39 (Sep 24, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



You're a sucker who follows the scribblings of an illiterate, cave dwelling child molester.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



So that's what's in the diaper?


----------



## Marc39 (Sep 24, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Muhammad's 6 year old wife, Aisha, was in the diaper.  Your Perfect Man.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 24, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Marc39 said:
> ...



So I'm Aisha?


----------



## Marc39 (Sep 24, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



You worship the pedophile Muhammad who was married to 6 year old Aisha.  The child molester thighed Aisha until he climaxed in his pants and, as recorded in the hadith, Aisha had to wash the semen off the pedophile's pants.

Muslims are suckers.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 24, 2010)

You never said what's in the diaper.


----------



## Marc39 (Sep 24, 2010)

Kalam said:


> You never said what's in the diaper.



The poop of Aisha, your pedophile prophet Muhammad's baby wife.

One of Mo's 12 wives and not even counting his myriad sex slaves.


----------



## Zander (Sep 24, 2010)

Islam is a death cult, plain and simple.


----------



## THE LIGHT (Sep 25, 2010)

Madeline said:


> The Taliban's interpretation of the Koran authorizes not just death by stoning, but also amputation and other unbelievable punishments...and for acts that I doubt many Westerners can comprehend as "crimes". This is not a "cultural divide" where the two cultures put the age of consent in different places. It seems to me this is the difference between barbarianism and human decency.
> 
> *Why can't we apply enough pressure to the Afghan government to at least outlaw such horrific punishments?*


 
Because it is part of Islam. So in essence you are asking them to westernize and adopt Christian principles.


----------



## camcooh2 (Sep 25, 2010)

It's a time honored muslim tradition to santify the diaper with a little "present". Something Western infidels and non-pedophiles wouldn't understand.


----------



## California Girl (Sep 25, 2010)

rdean said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Rdrool, you're like a fucking virus, infecting every damned thread with your 'Republican' rants. The topic of this thread is a fucking stoning of a young couple in Afghanistan. Prove that, just one time, you can address a topic without blaming Bush or the GOP. Just one time.


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## Adamo (Oct 3, 2010)

Afghan Newlyweds Stoned To Death - Isn't that what the US army's fighting for: religious freedom?


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## LibocalypseNow (Jan 25, 2011)

Ahh those "Peaceful Muslims."


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## Sunni Man (Jan 25, 2011)

Their country, their laws, their culture.

We have no business telling them what to do.


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## Samson (Jan 25, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Their country, their laws, their culture.
> 
> We have no business telling them what to do.



Agreed...but I'd still like China to sponsor a Human Rights Delegation to deliver a stern letter of disapproval.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 25, 2011)

Better yet; have Israel rebuke them.

Cause we all know how the Zionists totally support Human Rights.


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## LibocalypseNow (Jan 26, 2011)

Man they're either stoned on Opium or stoning their own people over there. Must be fun living in Muslim countries. Yikes!


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## Vargulf (Jan 30, 2011)

GySgt, the culture that is Islam cannot be changed.  Schools and Madrazzas in the Middle-East preach the Quran.  The Quran reads as a political mandate to change and rule the world by every means necessary, including killing those who refuse to convert to Islam.   They are fed this from infancy through adulthood.  It is akin to brainwashing.  Wherever you see a Muslim woman in nijab or burka in the west, you are seeing a family that wants to have Sharia Law implemented.  As their numbers grow (and they have large families), they will eventually change the politics of the land, favoring Sharia.  The Constitution that you love, well, they will just rip it up, wipe their derrieres with it, and laugh.  If you ask fundamentalist Muslims if that is their goal and they deny this, they are adopting the Doctrine of Taqqiya, which allows them to lie to infidels to protect the religion.  Having said all this, I am not saying that all Muslims are this way.  There are those who are "westernized" and believe in the secular stance of our nation.  They are the ones whose women wear western clothing and side with our Constitution.
But, be aware of this, those mosques that are popping up all over the nation, are funded by the "Saudis" and the Saudi religion is the extreme form of Islam.


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## Jroc (Feb 2, 2011)

It has been edited so I think its ok for the board


[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXQFjbM8l_g"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXQFjbM8l_g[/ame]


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## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

What happened to this couple was fucking terrible, how could so called religious people do this? fucking sick.


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## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

Madeline said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?hp
> 
> I don't even know where to begin.  Some of the people throwing stones were members of their own families.  How is this even possible?



Yes truely horrible.
And many idiots thought bringing them democracy was going to miraciously fix the place?

You can put lipstick on a pig but you still just have a pig.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 3, 2011)

Madeline said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?hp
> 
> I don't even know where to begin.  Some of the people throwing stones were members of their own families.  How is this even possible?



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sijN4Lt5c10&feature=related[/ame]


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## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> What happened to this couple was fucking terrible, how could so called religious people do this? fucking sick.



Call me callous but I have no sympathy for people who betray the trust of their spouses, particularly when they're aware of what such a betrayal entails.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > What happened to this couple was fucking terrible, how could so called religious people do this? fucking sick.
> ...



Who gives a fuck? really? those people that were murdered were Muslims, at the hand of other Muslims, and you don't care? well thats on you, but I think stoning someone for premarital sex is barbaric and sick.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 3, 2011)

The couple knowingly broke the laws of their country.

As criminals they had to pay the price for their crime.

As you can see from the video, the average Afghans were happy to carry out the execution.

Their country, their laws; who are we to say it is wrong?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...


I don't care that they were executed since they faced trial and were found guilty of a adultery. In light of certain scriptural uncertainties I wouldn't personally sentence adulterers to death on their first offense, but I wouldn't characterize this as a miscarriage of justice.



High_Gravity said:


> well thats on you, but I think stoning someone for premarital sex is barbaric and sick.


Premarital? The video indicated that both individuals were "engaged to other people." Premarital sex is another issue.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



If they were engaged to other people it is adultry but still, stoning is the correct punishment for that? I thought Islam was supposed to be a religion of peace, is stoning someone like this a peaceful thing to do, or is Islam not a peaceful religion and thats all just false rhetoric?


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## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

To me this whole stoning thing reminds me of the many lynchings that happened here to blacks in the south, a violent act by a group of people with no real authority to administer it.


----------



## Mr Natural (Feb 3, 2011)

And just one more reason why we need to get as far away from those savages as we possibly can.


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## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> The couple knowingly broke the laws of their country.
> 
> As criminals they had to pay the price for their crime.
> 
> ...



It is wrong to my sensibilities.  But you are correct it is their country and we have no right to interfere.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> If they were engaged to other people it is adultry but still, stoning is the correct punishment for that? I thought Islam was supposed to be a religion of peace, is stoning someone like this a peaceful thing to do, or is Islam not a peaceful religion and thats all just false rhetoric?



Whether or not it's correct is sort of in dispute, but I think it would be difficult to argue that it can never be used.

Islam is Islam and I can only speak for my understanding of it. I won't disagree with anyone who uses the "religion of peace" epithet nor with anyone who says that it isn't true.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Anyone here have Netflix?
If so...try watching the movie The Stoning Of Soraya.
Maybe once you see what a stoning really looks like...you might find some kind of understanding of the horror of it.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> To me this whole stoning thing reminds me of the many lynchings that happened here to blacks in the south, a violent act by a group of people with no real authority to administer it.



So in your view, being black is just as bad as committing adultery?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > If they were engaged to other people it is adultry but still, stoning is the correct punishment for that? I thought Islam was supposed to be a religion of peace, is stoning someone like this a peaceful thing to do, or is Islam not a peaceful religion and thats all just false rhetoric?
> ...



If this is the way things are supposed to be, how come every Muslim country doesn't practicing stoning for adulterers? what about Turkey? Bahrain? Bangladesh? Libya? how come they don't stone adulterers there? this whole thing didn't seem like a sanctioned government act, just a bunch of angry people being vengeful, kind of like a lynching.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > To me this whole stoning thing reminds me of the many lynchings that happened here to blacks in the south, a violent act by a group of people with no real authority to administer it.
> ...



In the minds of many people here back in those times, yes.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> If this is the way things are supposed to be, how come every Muslim country doesn't practicing stoning for adulterers? what about Turkey? Bahrain? Bangladesh? Libya? how come they don't stone adulterers there? this whole thing didn't seem like a sanctioned government act, just a bunch of angry people being vengeful, kind of like a lynching.



There is no government today that practices Shari'ah in its uncorrupted form, and for that matter neither do the Taliban.

If the people carrying out the punishment view it as an act of vengeance then their view is incorrect; it should not be treated that way.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



But were they correct?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



No they were not, just like these villagers were incorrect.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > If this is the way things are supposed to be, how come every Muslim country doesn't practicing stoning for adulterers? what about Turkey? Bahrain? Bangladesh? Libya? how come they don't stone adulterers there? this whole thing didn't seem like a sanctioned government act, just a bunch of angry people being vengeful, kind of like a lynching.
> ...



If I were Muslim I wouldn't like shit like this happening because it gives the religion a bad name, just my opinion.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



Does that mean that adultery is no more serious than being black and nobody should care about it one way or the other?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Obviously adultery is different than being black, one is a race and the other is an act, I was just comparing the similiarities between this stoning and the numerous lyching that took place across the South of the US. I really don't think adultery should be a criminal offense though, thats the business of the people involved not the whole damn town.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Islam is Islam and I can only speak for my understanding of it. I won't disagree with anyone who uses the "religion of peace" epithet nor with anyone who says that it isn't true.



People don't understand that; "Islam is, what it is".

There isn't any "crunchy granola" version to to please western sensibilities.


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> Anyone here have Netflix?
> If so...try watching the movie The Stoning Of Soraya.
> Maybe once you see what a stoning really looks like...you might find some kind of understanding of the horror of it.



True ist is like being beaten to death.  A lot of pain involved.
Dying from gunshot or even napalm is quicker.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes. Reading about it and actually seeing it in action is two different things. Your imagination can only come up with what your eyes read. Your eyes seeing, your ears hearing..that's another whole ballgame.
And yes, its Hollywood in action. Still, it gives the viewer a more visual connection to understanding what the women over there go through. And in this case, the man as well.
It's their country, yes. It's not our business. But as humans, we still have the option to feel shame and sorrow at what other humans do to each other over some book written by some guy that everyone follows as truth. This goes for any organized religion.


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 3, 2011)

I thought this was a thread about some bad weed or something


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Obviously adultery is different than being black, one is a race and the other is an act, I was just comparing the similiarities between this stoning and the numerous lyching that took place across the South of the US.


Right, but you recognize that there's a fundamental difference between punishing someone for being born a certain way and punishing someone for willfully violating a contract and betraying a person they're supposed to love. That's all I'm saying.



High_Gravity said:


> I really don't think adultery should be a criminal offense though, thats the business of the people involved not the whole damn town.


So we have different beliefs that aren't likely to change through debate.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Islam is Islam and I can only speak for my understanding of it. I won't disagree with anyone who uses the "religion of peace" epithet nor with anyone who says that it isn't true.
> ...



And the only person who could speak for the entire religion died almost 1400 years ago (SAWS).


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

Actually I think Adultry should be the business of the whole damned town.  Not for stoning purposes, but might help people behave a bit better  if they were publically embaressed a bit more.


----------



## Jroc (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > What happened to this couple was fucking terrible, how could so called religious people do this? fucking sick.
> ...



 They were not married idiot. They were engaged to people chosen by their families, it was not adultery.


----------



## LibocalypseNow (Feb 3, 2011)

Oh those Muslims. They're a real barrel of laughs huh? Call me crazy but i just don't think it would be much fun living in a Muslim country. Those people is deranged.


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

No I would not like to live there either.  But to many/most of them it is normal.

Humans... go figure.


----------



## Mr Natural (Feb 3, 2011)

Jroc said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...




In the minds of the sane it's not adultery.


But those people are far from being sane.


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

Mr Clean said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Ahh sanity is such a relative term in relation to societies and so forth.

It was sane to kill people for being witches?
To blame illness on evil spirits or sins?
To vote for Palin?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Jroc said:


> They were not married idiot.


You sound angry. You should consider giving yourself a few minutes to cool down before you post.



Jroc said:


> They were engaged to people chosen by their families, it was not adultery.


If the nikah had been performed then they were guilty of adultery. If it hadn't then they weren't.


----------



## Mr Natural (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > They were not married idiot.
> ...



Still, being stoned to death for adultery?

A bit on the barbaric side wouldn't you say?


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

As barbaric as drawing and quartering, crucification and many other tortures from before and are currently still being used.


----------



## Jroc (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> I don't care that they were executed since they faced trial and were found guilty of a adultery. In light of certain scriptural uncertainties I wouldn't personally sentence adulterers to death on their first offense, but I wouldn't characterize this as a miscarriage of justice.



This is your view of how Islam should be? This is your so-called "Caliphate" they are barbarians and you condone it.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Mr Clean said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



It certainly seems to offend Western sensibilities. But no, I don't consider it barbaric although I understand why most of you probably do.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Jroc said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care that they were executed since they faced trial and were found guilty of a adultery. In light of certain scriptural uncertainties I wouldn't personally sentence adulterers to death on their first offense, but I wouldn't characterize this as a miscarriage of justice.
> ...


I explained what I would have done. 



Jroc said:


> This is your so-called "Caliphate" they are barbarians and you condone it.


I don't support the Taliban and they don't represent my views -- I was commenting on this specific incident.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 3, 2011)

They knew the law and chose to violate it.

Case closed.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> It certainly seems to offend Western sensibilities. But no, I don't consider it barbaric although I understand why most of you probably do.



I understand Kalam. This is simply a portion of the cultural divide. It will not bother those who like the ideas that put women at a level where this can happen. 



Kalam said:


> I don't care that they were executed since they faced trial and were found guilty of a adultery. In light of certain scriptural uncertainties I wouldn't personally sentence adulterers to death on their first offense, but I wouldn't characterize this as a miscarriage of justice.





Sunni Man said:


> They knew the law and chose to violate it.
> 
> Case closed.





			
				Jroc said:
			
		

> This is your view of how Islam should be? This is your so-called "Caliphate" they are barbarians and you condone it.



One can not expect a Muslim to think like a Westerner.  I know I don't. I expect them to speak and think like Kalam, etc. 

Why would they see such a thing as wrong? Their culture states it is correct. 

I just accept them in these kinds of things. These are those '*works*' I speak of Jroc.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Ropey said:


> I understand Kalam. This is simply a portion of the cultural divide. It will not bother those who like the ideas that put women at a level where this can happen.


When did this incident become a gender issue? Penalties in Shari'ah are the same for men and women unless anatomical differences make this impossible. 



Ropey said:


> One can not expect a Muslim to think like a Westerner.  I know I don't. I expect them to speak and think like Kalam, etc.
> 
> Why would they see such a thing as wrong? Their culture states it is correct.
> 
> I just accept them in these kinds of things. These are those '*works*' I speak of Jroc.


I'm interested in hearing how a Muslim thinks and speaks from your perspective.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > I understand Kalam. This is simply a portion of the cultural divide. It will not bother those who like the ideas that put women at a level where this can happen.
> ...



Can Muslim women marry unbelievers and stay true to the Koran Kalam?



Ropey said:


> One can not expect a Muslim to think like a Westerner.  I know I don't. I expect them to speak and think like Kalam, etc.
> 
> Why would they see such a thing as wrong? Their culture states it is correct.
> 
> I just accept them in these kinds of things. These are those '*works*' I speak of Jroc.





Kalam said:


> I'm interested in hearing how a Muslim thinks and speaks from your perspective.



I listen to your words Kalam. I listen to the words of other Muslims. Then I look to Muslim 'works' worldwide and tie the two together.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



How's that?


----------



## Ropey (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > I understand Kalam. This is simply a portion of the cultural divide. It will not bother those who like the ideas that put women at a level where this can happen.
> ...



Can Muslim women marry unbelievers and stay true to the Koran Kalam?



Ropey said:


> One can not expect a Muslim to think like a Westerner.  I know I don't. I expect them to speak and think like Kalam, etc.
> 
> Why would they see such a thing as wrong? Their culture states it is correct.
> 
> I just accept them in these kinds of things. These are those '*works*' I speak of Jroc.





Kalam said:


> I'm interested in hearing how a Muslim thinks and speaks from your perspective.



I listen to your words Kalam. I listen to the words of other Muslims. Then I look to Muslim 'works' worldwide and tie the two together.



Kalam said:


> How's that?



What are you missing? Where am I unclear?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Can Muslim women marry unbelievers and stay true to the Koran Kalam?


No (2:221.) If they did so or a man married a woman who adhered to some sort of polytheism, the union would not be recognized and any sexual activity between them would be sinful.



Kalam said:


> What are you missing? Where am I unclear?



The manner in which a Muslim supposedly thinks and speaks. You said that you made note of our words and tied them to "actions" and didn't elaborate beyond this.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Argggggg. That's all I'll say.
No. Wait. I have three words:
Organized Religion sucks.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> Argggggg. That's all I'll say.
> No. Wait. I have three words:
> Organized Religion sucks.



There was a time when I would have agreed with you.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> IMEURU said:
> 
> 
> > Argggggg. That's all I'll say.
> ...


ok. You piqued my curiosity. What made you go the path you are now on, then?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > IMEURU said:
> ...



I forsook my religion entirely when I was younger before I began reading some philosophy. I became interested in deism and Spinoza's pantheism as well as so-called rationalist arguments in favor of theism... but then I rejected the rationalist logic as flawed and pantheism as meaningless around the time I found an independent content for belief in mystic experience. Since both the rationalist arguments and the works on mysticism I read were mostly written by Muslims, returning to Islam seemed to be the logical course of action.

I bet that was less exciting than you thought it would be.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Can Muslim women marry unbelievers and stay true to the Koran Kalam?
> ...



Let me be clear then Kalam. When I say Muslim, I mean a true believer, and one who knows and practices their belief.

I have, heretofore said to you that your mind matters to me. Early on when I first came here and we were discussing the Chechen conflict. I said this because I believe you. When I ask you questions of the Koran that I personally know, you answer them all correctly.

What I see as minimization, etc. is dis-convergent culture. 

Let me make an example.  A given:

_The methods of punishment and crime meted out by one culture is different than another culture. _​
Now you understand the effect on the West by a certain act as you previously said. However, you don't really understand why it is so abhorrent or important (so as to degree) to that other culture as you see the other culture doing things that your culture finds abhorrent and which that other culture espouses.  Yes?

Put a small stone in your left hand and a large rock in your right hand. Do this when standing on a wooden floor.  Holding both hands out, let both the rock and stone fall.  One effects more damage than the other. Yes?

Holding the hands out and dropping the stone/rock is an event. So is stoning a man and a woman for adultery an event. Yes?

To your mind, it's appropriate when tied to the true word of Islam. Your stone is a tiny pebble of impact.

To the mind of the Western Philosophy, this act is the rock's impact. 

Both the Western Philosophy and Islam have their own pebbles, stones and rocks of dis-convergent culture. 

It's not a misconception of culture, it's a dis-convergence of culture. Your words show me this, and I tie them to the understanding I have of Islam, often given to me by true practicing and knowledgeable Muslims of which you are one. 

So the act of the OP is tied to your view of the effect on a true believer. 

It's not really minimization as it is the true effect on you. You are not effecting it in contempt or arrogance. It simply does not effect you in the same way it effects many of those in the Western culture.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Confusing more than non exciting. 
I have no religion, myself.  But if I did, it would be a combo of religions that tickles my own ear.

My response is clear as mud, isnt it?


----------



## daveman (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > What happened to this couple was fucking terrible, how could so called religious people do this? fucking sick.
> ...





Sunni Man said:


> The couple knowingly broke the laws of their country.
> 
> As criminals they had to pay the price for their crime.
> 
> ...


You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries.  Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 3, 2011)

daveman said:


> You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries.  Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.



Like how a so called "civilized Western nation" dropped two atomic bombs on two cities full of civilians?

Or do you mean like how the "civilized European nations" murdered and slaughtered tens of millions of civilians during WWII ??


----------



## Dr Grump (Feb 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries.  Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.
> ...



Old news and we have learned from those mistakes and moved on. When do you think Islam will step out of its misogynistic hell hole and into the 21st century?

If you want to defend a religion or culture which is trapped in the 8th century, then have at it...but please, don't try and pull the wool over our eyes.

All religions suck, but Islam is at the head of the table as being the suckiest of the big ones (Scientology would probably be the worst, but I find it hard to think of it as a religion - more of a science fiction novel come to life)....


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries.  Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.
> ...



Sorry, but that dog doesn't hunt. Give it another attempt if you care to.
Drawing and quartering, human sacrifice, the torture chambers of the Spanish Inquisition, the arenas in Rome...all of that was barbaric. So is stoning people. Which is being done *today, tomorrow, the next day*.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Let me be clear then Kalam. When I say Muslim, I mean a true believer, and one who knows and practices their belief.
> 
> I have, heretofore said to you that your mind matters to me. Early on when I first came here and we were discussing the Chechen conflict. I said this because I believe you. When I ask you questions of the Koran that I personally know, you answer them all correctly.
> 
> ...


To a certain extent. But I am a Westerner by nationality and was raised in an environment that was almost completely secular, so my own set of morals was very "Western" and certain old habits and beliefs die hard.

As far as adultery is concerned, I do think I understand the reasons behind our difference in belief and it has to do with the importance and nature of the institution of marriage. In Islam, marriage is an important part of life that nearly everyone is expected to experience. Its importance as I understand it is threefold. The first two reasons are physical: it's the only permissible means through which people can act on their natural sexual urges and the only permissible means through which they may procreate. Its main significance, however, is spiritual and marriage is described as half of a person's _deen_ (way of life or religion.) The other half is fear of God, which is some indication of how important marriage must be. Love and compassion between spouses and the peace of mind it inspires is also described as a sign of God in 30:21.

When a person commits adultery in Islam, they desecrate an institution that God himself invokes as a sign of His existence, show that the Islamic way of life is unimportant to them, and betray the love that their partner has invested into the relationship. That is why adultery is so serious and has such enormous consequences. In many Islamic cultures the institution of marriage was also significant historically as a sign of ties between different families.

In the secular West, marriage is usually something that occurs after a person is already experienced in matters of love (both emotional and sexual.) Adolescence and early adulthood are times for experimentation and spending time in relationships with different people before meeting the right person and "settling down." The culture has been sexualized to a far greater extent and sex in general is typically seen as a good thing regardless of marital status. If after finally getting married a person commits adultery, they still betray their partner's love. However, the act doesn't carry the same religious significance and isn't viewed as being nearly as serious, although the adulterer suffers a tarnished reputation. Many marriages even continue in spite of adulterous incidents. Another key difference is that the meaning of "marriage" in Islam is static while in the West it's gone from signifying polygyny/heterosexual monogamy to strictly heterosexual monogamy to heterosexual and homosexual monogamy. 

So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.



Ropey said:


> Put a small stone in your left hand and a large rock in your right hand. Do this when standing on a wooden floor.  Holding both hands out, let both the rock and stone fall.  One effects more damage than the other. Yes?
> 
> Holding the hands out and dropping the stone/rock is an event. So is stoning a man and a woman for adultery an event. Yes?
> 
> ...



I agree completely.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> Confusing more than non exciting.


That was my second guess. 

I should have just said that I got to where I am now through my own study of philosophy and different religious beliefs. 



IMEURU said:


> I have no religion, myself.  But if I did, it would be a combo of religions that tickles my own ear.
> 
> My response is clear as mud, isnt it?



Clear enough for me. I can respect that even though I disagree with it.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?



No harshness was involved.

And both the man and the woman were treated equally under the law.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?



Sometimes yes, though that shouldn't be the case. The misogyny is cultural, though, and penalties in Islamic law are supposed to be applied to men and women equally.


----------



## Dr Grump (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.



I also think that some Westerners (me included) feel that a lot of these people carrying out these acts of barbarity are uneducated, which is a result of maniuplation by both Islamic govts and Imans. Keeping people ignorant and unenlightened behooves both. It gives the govt and Imans power, not only due to their ability to have influence due to their station in life, but also due to their education.

I absolutely believe that the people in charge of govts in the Muslim world are of the "do as we say, not as we do" ilk. 

Get people with Islam as the major religion educated, and I would suggest a lot of these barbaric practices would stop.

A lot of the conservatives on this board - especially the ignorant - find it hard to believe there was a time when the arab world was at the centre of scientific and mathematical learning. It has been stuck in the dark ages for a very long time...mainly due to Islam and its interpretation of it by Imans.


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> Confusing more than non exciting.
> I have no religion, myself.  But if I did, it would be a combo of religions that tickles my own ear.
> 
> My response is clear as mud, isnt it?



Does to me.
Follow your own nose vs the pack?


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.
> ...


Christianity has its times as well in holding back the progress of learning and society.
Didn't someone have to recant his observations about the solar system or be imprisoned or die?


----------



## Intense (Feb 3, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Maybe you could find a more current example before we return you to the Pound?


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> IMEURU said:
> 
> 
> > That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?
> ...



So...you are a westerner? And you studied to find a religion that you could connect to, correct? And that religion that you found most compatible to you was Islam?


----------



## Ropey (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> To a certain extent. But I am a Westerner by nationality and was raised in an environment that was almost completely secular, so my own set of morals was very "Western" and certain old habits and beliefs die hard.
> 
> So when Westerners see Muslims executing people for something they don't think is very serious, the obvious conclusion is that Muslims are strict reactionaries who react to minor crimes with disproportionate harshness. This type of harshness is viewed as an outdated practice (as that's precisely what it has become in Western history) and it is entirely inconsistent with Western notions of modernity and acting civilized.



I did not say you were a born Muslim.  I said you were, to my view, a true believer of Islam and honest when it comes to Islam. It is likely why you understand the Wests dislikes and fears of Islam. Still, you show more confusion than one might think for a convert. I would think you would well know and not be confused over the impact. 

But then let's face it, if hatred of Israel and Zionism can be fronted and foisted by such converts as you and Sunni Man, then it does not bode well. But who knows the tides and sands?  Even so, any true believer of Judaism is expected to know and follow many laws as well. The highly orthodox choose a very strict path. 

The difference is allowance of personal choice. It is a major divergence, but there are many. Not simply financially as some will point out, but culturally in aspects of choices. I could give many examples. I will simply give one.

We have homosexual and transvestite Rabbis. 

The strictness in Islam is there and can't be hidden Kalam. Not even minimized because we are already maximizing it since it is our rock. There is no use trying to make your pebble smaller. It will not work as this is is rooted in the major difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity.  It is choice where the divergence is shown to nexus. 

Choice. The tree of life and knowledge. The Apple. Choice.

Islam is harsh to Western standards. Very harsh. Then there's the financial rock Kalam. There's many different rocks.


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

Intense said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Ahh I heard the Humane society was suing the local animal shelter for inhumane treatment of their animals.
They keep Rush and such playing on talk radio in the animal area.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> IMEURU said:
> 
> 
> > That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?
> ...



I apologize in advance...but...bullshit. The majority of stonings are women. And they are stoned because they have been accused of ...whatever. And the accusers were men...either husbands or boyfriends or some guy that had other agendas and had to get rid of the current wife to marry the next one or some such crap.

Your laws were written by man, for MAN.


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 3, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > IMEURU said:
> ...



Pretty much and not all that different from the old testament rules regarding women.
I recall something about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".  But that was the new testament.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

Sunni, Ya know....I believe in karma. Some day, I believe it will bite ya on the ass. Watch overhead rocks when traveling. Once you get a barrage of them smacking you on the head, you might realize just how painful it is. Or...even better....your next life won't be in paradise. I hear gods and goddesses have a sense of humor. You will come back as a woman, foisted off on a man just like you. And guess what? He will want to marry someone younger so....oops...ya gotta go. I'm betting you know how that will go.

This subject is making me pissy. So....I will just nod my head now and then with the Thanks button.


----------



## Grace (Feb 3, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> IMEURU said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Thats why I said all religions suck.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> I also think that some Westerners (me included) feel that a lot of these people carrying out these acts of barbarity are uneducated, which is a result of maniuplation by both Islamic govts and Imans. Keeping people ignorant and unenlightened behooves both. It gives the govt and Imans power, not only due to their ability to have influence due to their station in life, but also due to their education.



There's some truth to this. If a person is illiterate or uneducated, they're incapable of ijtihad -- independent interpretation -- and are more or less at the mercy of their local imam or whichever shaykh they choose to follow. However, encouraging ignorance and religious incompetence is completely contrary to the letter and spirit of Islam. Additionally, the relationship between religiosity and poverty isn't the same in the Muslim world as it is in the West. 



Dr Grump said:


> I absolutely believe that the people in charge of govts in the Muslim world are of the "do as we say, not as we do" ilk.
> 
> Get people with Islam as the major religion educated, and I would suggest a lot of these barbaric practices would stop.


Your characterization of governments is accurate but your implication that educated Muslims are less likely to be religious doesn't seem to be. A casual investigation into Islamist opposition groups like the Muslim Brothers and Hizb ut-Tahrir will show that university students, professionals, and high-ranking members of the military and government form the bulk of their membership in many countries. There's even said to be a high proportion of university graduates among the ranks of al-Qa'idah. 

_Gallups Centre for Muslim Studies in New York carried out surveys of 10,000 Muslims in ten predominantly Muslim countries. *One finding was that the wealthier and better-educated the Muslim was, the more likely he was to be radicalised.*_ 

Anti-American feelings soar among Muslims, study finds - Times Online​
I think part of the reason educated Muslims are more likely to be "radical" is because they're more conscious of how corrupt and ineffective their secular or semi-secular governments are. They're also more likely to be familiar with their religion and the sort of accountable governance it demands; this is seen as an alternative to the powers that rule over them and explains their involvement in violent and non-violent Islamist groups.

Westerners view secularization as a step toward enlightenment because that's the way the Western world developed. The history of the Muslim world is fundamentally different and will lead us along a different path.



Dr Grump said:


> A lot of the conservatives on this board - especially the ignorant - find it hard to believe there was a time when the arab world was at the centre of scientific and mathematical learning. It has been stuck in the dark ages for a very long time...*mainly due to Islam and its interpretation of it by Imans.*



I have to disagree with that. You'll find that most or many of the great scientific minds of the Islamic Golden Age were also extremely important religious scholars, jurists, or philosophers. See Al-Ghazali, Ibn Sina (modern medicine), Al-Kindi, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Khaldun (modern social sciences), Al-Farabi, Ibn al-Haytham (optics), etc. The only notable irreligious polymath I know of was Omar Khayyam.

The most famous Imams also tended to be opponents of the government and oppressive rule. Of the four who founded the four major Sunni schools of jurisprudence, Abu Hanifa was imprisoned and beaten and supported insurrections against two caliphates, Malik was flogged for issuing a fatwa against forced allegiance to Caliph al-Mansur, ash-Shafi'i was accused of supporting rebellion against Harun ar-Rashid, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal was called before Caliph al-Ma'mun's Inquisition and still defied him.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 3, 2011)

Kalam said:


> The most famous Imams also tended to be opponents of the government and oppressive rule. Of the four who founded the four major Sunni schools of jurisprudence, Abu Hanifa was imprisoned and beaten and supported insurrections against two caliphates, Malik was flogged for issuing a fatwa against forced allegiance to Caliph al-Mansur, ash-Shafi'i was accused of supporting rebellion against Harun ar-Rashid, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal was called before Caliph al-Ma'mun's Inquisition and still defied him.



Sounds like a fine old family line indeed. 

Meet my brother, the murderer who overthrew....

Famous. Now there's the definitive word in your entire statement. It defines the statement as those people and the acts they have done are famous. And these are your leaders. Well, at least they're not clerics eh?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > To a certain extent. But I am a Westerner by nationality and was raised in an environment that was almost completely secular, so my own set of morals was very "Western" and certain old habits and beliefs die hard.
> ...


I don't know why that is. What kind of confusion on my part do you perceive? 



Ropey said:


> But then let's face it, if hatred of Israel and Zionism can be fronted and foisted by such converts as you and Sunni Man, then it does not bode well.


I should mention that my opposition to Israel had nothing to do with religion in the beginning. It began with my own study of the conflict's history. My religiosity only changed the nature of my opposition and more recent happenings have caused it to intensify.



Ropey said:


> But who knows the tides and sands?  Even so, any true believer of Judaism is expected to know and follow many laws as well. The highly orthodox choose a very strict path.
> 
> The difference is allowance of personal choice. It is a major divergence, but there are many. Not simply financially as some will point out, but culturally in aspects of choices. I could give many examples. I will simply give one.
> 
> ...



I understand what you're saying. In my study of other religions I've noticed that Judaism and especially Christianity are usually less specific than Islam with regard to the guidance they give their followers in everything ranging from individual worship and eating habits to the judiciary and statecraft. I say this is less true for Judaism since you have a wonderful example of exhaustive scriptural analysis and exegesis in the Gemara. But since modern Jewry was largely shaped by the experiences of Jews in Europe, you were affected by the same wave of secularism that swept across European Christendom and a huge number of Jews today self-identify as secular. 

The model of behavior of Islam is Muhammad (SAWS) and Muslims were left with a staggering number of traditions related to every aspect of his behavior and speech -- I don't think there is anything comparable related to Moses (AS) or Jesus (AS) in Judaism or Christianity. I think this is the reason you believe there's less choice in Islam, although I disagree with you -- many of the questions that Jews and Christians have had to answer themselves can be answered in Islam by turning to scripture or prophetic practice. I say we still have choice because this has given rise to an enormous number of sects, schools or jurisprudence, schools of theology, movements, etc. based on the many interpretations that can be derived from our religious canon, and they are as diverse as the body of believers they represent.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 3, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Famous. Now there's the definitive word in your entire statement. It defines the statement as those people and the acts they have done are famous. And these are your leaders. Well, at least they're not clerics eh?



The caliphs they opposed were murderers. The four imams (RA) weren't clerics because Sunni Islam doesn't exactly have what can be called a clergy, but they were the scholars of fiqh to whom their respective communities turned for religious guidance, and they were those whose fatawa form the basis of today's four schools of law. I think they're rather blameless... I'll leave you with the wisdom Abu Hanifa shared with one of his students:



> "Give everyone who frequents you some of the knowledge they are expecting. Be friendly with them, and joke with them sometimes and chat with them. Love encourages people to persevere in knowledge. Feed them sometimes and fulfill their needs. Acknowledge their worth and overlook their faults. Be kind to them and tolerant of them: do not show them annoyance or vexation. Be like one of them... do not burden people with what they cannot do."


----------



## Ropey (Feb 4, 2011)

Kalam said:


> I don't know why that is. What kind of confusion on my part do you perceive?



You seem not so strong about understanding why the Western culture sees such acts as inhumane. 



Ropey said:


> But then let's face it, if hatred of Israel and Zionism can be fronted and foisted by such converts as you and Sunni Man, then it does not bode well.





Kalam said:


> I should mention that my opposition to Israel had nothing to do with religion in the beginning. It began with my own study of the conflict's history. My religiosity only changed the nature of my opposition and more recent happenings have caused it to intensify.



And I the other side. I have told you what I see there. What I have seen there as an Israeli citizen. I was there for more than a few of the suicide attacks and I won't go deeper, but it's there. 

Your words in past posts show your intensity Kalam.  You made it more than clear to me. 



Ropey said:


> But who knows the tides and sands?  Even so, any true believer of Judaism is expected to know and follow many laws as well. The highly orthodox choose a very strict path.
> 
> The difference is allowance of personal choice. It is a major divergence, but there are many. Not simply financially as some will point out, but culturally in aspects of choices. I could give many examples. I will simply give one.
> 
> ...





Kalam said:


> I understand what you're saying. In my study of other religions I've noticed that Judaism and especially Christianity are usually less specific than Islam with regard to the guidance they give their followers in everything ranging from individual worship and eating habits to the judiciary and statecraft. I say this is less true for Judaism since you have a wonderful example of exhaustive scriptural analysis and exegesis in the Gemara. But since modern Jewry was largely shaped by the experiences of Jews in Europe, you were affected by the same wave of secularism that swept across European Christendom and a huge number of Jews today self-identify as secular.
> 
> The model of behavior of Islam is Muhammad (SAWS) and Muslims were left with a staggering number of traditions related to every aspect of his behavior and speech -- I don't think there is anything comparable related to Moses (AS) or Jesus (AS) in Judaism or Christianity. I think this is the reason you believe there's less choice in Islam, although I disagree with you -- many of the questions that Jews and Christians have had to answer themselves can be answered in Islam by turning to scripture or prophetic practice. I say we still have choice because this has given rise to an enormous number of sects, schools or jurisprudence, schools of theology, movements, etc. based on the many interpretations that can be derived from our religious canon, and they are as diverse as the body of believers they represent.



Choice where and how you practice? Yes, I can see this and you have some minor sects, but Sunni Islam is where it's at.  And is there any choice to the main shari'i position tenets of Islamic Law and which you stated are more voluminous than both Christianity, Judaism and likely every other cultural laws included?

So, you can choose the color of the house. Any color you want.

As long as it's black?










Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Famous. Now there's the definitive word in your entire statement. It defines the statement as those people and the acts they have done are famous. And these are your leaders. Well, at least they're not clerics eh?
> ...



Good wisdom. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have their place or they would not be here. They are all products of G-d. They all have their wise leaders and their fools. 

It doesn't change the reality on the ground.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 4, 2011)

Ropey said:


> You seem not so strong about understanding why the Western culture sees such acts as inhumane.


Perhaps I can't.



Ropey said:


> And I the other side. I have told you what I see there. What I have seen there as an Israeli citizen. I was there for more than a few of the suicide attacks and I won't go deeper, but it's there.
> 
> Your words in past posts show your intensity Kalam.  You made it more than clear to me.


I'm a passionate person. What you see as religiously-charged statement may really be me using religion as an emotional outlet, and that's an unfortunate tendency of mine. 



Ropey said:


> Choice where and how you practice? Yes, I can see this and you have some minor sects, but Sunni Islam where it's at.  And is there any choice to the main shari'i position tenets of Islamic Law and which you stated are more voluminous than both Christianity,Judaism and likely every other cultural laws included.


The people of the Sunnah are predominant but the Shi'at 'Ali are influential and have been such an important force throughout history that they can't be ignored. And they attract converts as well. 

Is there choice as far as Shari'ah is concerned? Well of course. Even the differences between the four schools are quite pronounced on certain issues, yet each recognizes the others as legitimate. The only issue within Islam that hasn't given rise to multiple viewpoints is that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.



Ropey said:


> So, you can choose the color of the house. Any color you want.
> 
> As long as it's black?



Well, I disagree with that assessment. But I do appreciate the irony of a Jew quoting Henry Ford.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 4, 2011)

Kalam said:
			
		

> Even the differences between the four schools are quite pronounced on certain issues, yet each recognizes the others as legitimate.



Please define certain issues.

I'm glad you got the quote. 

We are nothing if we do not have both our humor and irony, but most of all humanity. To take something not so good, and turn it into a humor and as an edgewise in discussion is enjoyable.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 4, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Name an issue or an aspect of belief or practice and there's likely to be a difference between at least some of the four schools, not to mention within each.



Ropey said:


> I'm glad you got the quote.
> 
> We are nothing if we do not have both our humor and irony, but most of all humanity. To take something not so good, and turn it into a humor and as an edgewise in discussion is enjoyable.



Of course.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> IMEURU said:
> 
> 
> > That harshness is mainly applied to women, is it not?
> ...



Stoning someone to death isnt harsh?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> They knew the law and chose to violate it.
> 
> Case closed.



Does it actually say in the Afghan law that the penalty for adultery is stoning? or was this just some lynch mob dishing out its own justice?


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 4, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Stoning someone to death isnt harsh?


Both men and women have received the death penalty here in the U.S. and were executed last year.

I don't consider it harsh; but applied "justice" 

The method, stoning or injection, achieves the same result.

So what's the problem?


----------



## Jroc (Feb 4, 2011)

Ropey said:


> We are nothing if we do not have both our humor and irony, *but most of all humanity.* To take something not so good, and turn it into a humor and as an edgewise in discussion is enjoyable.



And this is the key.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 4, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Does it actually say in the Afghan law that the penalty for adultery is stoning? or was this just some lynch mob dishing out its own justice?



Isn't the law of any country. 

Just that societies morals and values given legal voice and boundaries?

The offenders had been given a trial and admitted their guilt.

Plus the crowd in the video seemed to support the execution.

And no one was trying to stop the sentence from being carried out.

So what's the problem?


----------



## daveman (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > You guys need to set your calendars ahead about 14 centuries.  Civilized nations don't go for such barbarity.
> ...


What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Stoning someone to death isnt harsh?
> ...



The people that were executed on death row here are usually there for multiple murders, I think thats a big difference between that and adultery, plus these guys on death row in the US get plenty of chances for appeals to clear their names, how many chances did this Afghan couple get?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Does it actually say in the Afghan law that the penalty for adultery is stoning? or was this just some lynch mob dishing out its own justice?
> ...



The problem is this whole thing was nothing different than the lynchings that went on across this country, it was not legal and the people that did it had no real authority to carry it out. Just the fact that they video taped it shows that it was a vengeful act for propoganda purposes, last time I checked it was illegal to videotape or photograph executions.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 4, 2011)

daveman said:


> What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?



They were not murdered.

It's called execution; same as we do here in the U.S.

They had a legal trial and were found guilty of a crime that carries the death penalty.

I guess that you object to the method of execution?

But whether it is stoning or lethal injection.

Legal justice was carried out for the benefit of society.

Same rational that we use for defending executions here in America.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 4, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> last time I checked it was illegal to videotape or photograph executions.


Maybe in the U.S. it is illegal.

But not in other countries.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?
> ...



People in the US stay on death row for years and get numerous chances for appeals to clear their names, there is no comparison between them and what happened to this Afghan couple. It is ok to be Muslim and criticize this barbaric act Sunni.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 4, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> plus these guys on death row in the US get plenty of chances for appeals to clear their names, how many chances did this Afghan couple get?



And that's why we have thousands of murderers sitting on death row for 20 years.

Costing the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars to warehouse them and pay their legal bills.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > plus these guys on death row in the US get plenty of chances for appeals to clear their names, how many chances did this Afghan couple get?
> ...



It turns out alot of those guys on death row are innocent, I have read articles on how DNA evidence helped clear them. If we just killed them all we would be killing innocent people.


----------



## daveman (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?
> ...


I object to the method and the application of the death penalty for the "crime".  

Really, dude...it's the 21st Century.  Stop pretending it's 750 AD.  And while you're at it, stop treating women like property.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 4, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> It is ok to be Muslim and criticize this barbaric act Sunni.


I would defend this the same way if it was Hindus in India or Buddhists in Asia.

They broke their societies laws and were punished.

So what's the problem?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > It is ok to be Muslim and criticize this barbaric act Sunni.
> ...



If adultery is illegal in Afghanistan how about just hand the couple over to the police and let them face a trial?


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > What higher purpose was served by murdering these two people in so barbaric a fashion?
> ...




Comparing their crime to what we administer the death penalty for is just plain stupid 

But then again, I need to consider the source dont I?


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> So what's the problem?



I would start with your bullshit avatar..... fukin' camel jock!


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

I would rather sit on Death Row in the US anyday than go through a violent bloody end like that Afghan couple did.


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 4, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> I would rather sit on Death Row in the US anyday than go through a violent bloody end like that Afghan couple did.



Especially for such a petty "crime", and I use the term loosely.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 4, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > I would rather sit on Death Row in the US anyday than go through a violent bloody end like that Afghan couple did.
> ...



Man they would have killed me 10 times over if I was in Afghan, I had sex with a married woman when I was single, and I also had a girlfriend when I was married. They would stoned the fuck out of me over there.


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 4, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> The Infidel said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



 Me too..... I was a very bad boy!


----------



## Intense (Feb 4, 2011)

Mr. Khan estimated that about 200 villagers participated in the executions, including Khayyam&#8217;s father and brother, and Siddiqa&#8217;s brother, as well as other relatives, with a larger crowd of onlookers who did not take part.

&#8220;People were very happy seeing this,&#8221; Mr. Khan maintained, saying the crowd was festive and cheered during the stoning. The couple, he said, &#8220;did a bad thing.&#8221;

A spokesman for the Taliban, Zabiullah Mujahid, praised the action. &#8220;We have heard about this report,&#8221; he said, interviewed by cellphone. &#8220;But let me tell you that according to Shariah law, if someone commits a crime like that, we have our courts and we deal with such crimes based on Islamic law.&#8221;

Mr. Nadery, from the human rights commission, pointed to a string of recent such cases of summary justice by the Taliban. *In northwestern Badghis Province on Aug. 8, a 41-year-old widow, who was made pregnant by a man she said promised to marry her, was convicted of fornication by a Taliban court. She was given 200 lashes with a whip and then shot to death, according to Col. Abdul Jabar*, a provincial police official, who said the killing was ordered by the local Taliban commander, Mullah Yousef, in Qadis district.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html?_r=1&hp

Vindictive Sadistic Bastards.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 4, 2011)

Intense said:


> Mr. Khan estimated that about 200 villagers participated in the executions, including Khayyams father and brother, and Siddiqas brother, as well as other relatives, with a larger crowd of onlookers who did not take part.
> 
> People were very happy seeing this, Mr. Khan maintained, saying the crowd was festive and cheered during the stoning. The couple, he said, did a bad thing.
> 
> ...



This is "On the ground" and "By their works".


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

Intense said:


> Mr. Khan estimated that about 200 villagers participated in the executions, including Khayyams father and brother, and Siddiqas brother, as well as other relatives, with a larger crowd of onlookers who did not take part.


The couple violated the moral's and social laws of the entire village.

And thus had to pay the price for their criminal act.


----------



## AllieBaba (Feb 5, 2011)

It's a human rights violation.

Not okay in any culture, anywhere. If you behave in this manner, eventually you will die like the rats you are.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> It's a human rights violation.


No, it was a criminal act.


----------



## AllieBaba (Feb 5, 2011)

Bullshit, you pig. It's a human rights violation. If it's considered a criminal act, then the people who are determining that are also violating human rights of people.

And deserve to be gunned down in the street.

As they often are. Generally by members of their own dog pack.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

What about the "Rights" of the villagers to cleanse their village of criminals?


----------



## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> *What about the "Rights" of the villagers to cleanse their village of criminals?*





> Amid a global outcry over a couple stoned to death for adultery in Afghanistan, Eliza Griswold asks why an Islamic law designed to protect women&#8217;s rights is being used against them today.





> Stoning women to death for adultery dates back much further than Islam&#8217;s birth, however. It&#8217;s the law of the Arab desert. It&#8217;s the ancient law encoded before 1500 B.C. by the Mesopotamian leader Hammurabi.
> 
> Two thousand years after Hammurabi, when Muhammad became a prophet, girl babies were frequently killed, women had no right to divorce, they couldn&#8217;t inherit property&#8212;and they died at a man&#8217;s whim. These injunctions of Islam as a new religion were designed to protect women. But what was designed to protect women&#8217;s rights during the seventh century is being used against them as the 21st begins.
> 
> ...








> Woman stoned to death in north Afghanistan





> Soaked in blood





> The video begins with *Siddqa*, a 25-year-old woman, standing waist-deep in a hole in the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Woman stoned to death in north Afghanistan | Turkic Press*



> Women often jailed for trying to escape coercive arranged matches.





			
				Samia said:
			
		

> 16, from the Shulgard district of Balkh province, is among those seeking the commission&#8217;s help. She wants it to intervene and help break her engagement to a man 22 years older than her. Her family concluded the arrangement when she was only six, and is now insisting the marriage go ahead.
> 
> &#8220;I don&#8217;t want to marry someone who&#8217;s many times my age, so I have come to this [human rights commission] office to get the engagement terminated,&#8221; she said.



*Afghan Runaways Flee Forced Marriages | Turkic Press*

The stoning lasts two minutes. Hundreds of rocks &#8211; some larger than a man&#8217;s fist &#8211; are thrown at her head and body. She tries to crawl out of the hole, but is beaten back by the stones. A boulder is then thrown at her head, her burka is soaked in blood, and she collapses inside the hole.






Sunni Man said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > It's a human rights violation.
> ...



No, it was a human rights violation. And you are a convert. I don't believe it. Your lack of uncaring for those of your belief brings to mind the Arab lack of uncaring for their black brethren in Africa while they kill their entire tribes of men and boys, raping the women in order to remove a black tribe and install and Arab tribe. 

Even if the apologists like Sunni Man deny it.

The religion of peace?


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

We have the death penalty and execute criminals here in the U.S. all of the time.

Just the method if execution used is different.

But the outcome is still the same.

So what is the problem?


----------



## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> So what is the problem?



This is why I find it hard to see you being a convert Sunni Man. 

Your emotional affect over this kind of violence is too flat. It is the same affect and responses I get from those who have been indoctrinated into this violence and find no ethical effect, since they have grown up under this acceptance.

When I show you a picture of the Grand Mufti and Hitler you go off the rails. But over this kind of action, you see no culture clash issue.

I would have to see you to believe you Sunni Man. I see your singular lack of concern over the treatment of women being not Western birthed. 

You have no concern over those women being stoned to death, but a picture showing the Mufti and Hitler gets you so angry you leave the thread in anger?

Religion of peace?

I think not.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

Again, whether it was Hindu's in India or Buddhists in Asia, doing the same thing.

I would have the same response.

"Their country, their laws"

Doesn't affect me in the least.

And is not mine or the West's business to intercede in their affairs.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Again, whether it was Hindu's in India or Buddhists in Asia, doing the same thing.
> 
> I would have the same response.
> 
> ...



I've heard this before.



> First they came for the Communists,
> and I didnt speak up,
> because I wasnt a Communist.
> Then they came for the Jews,
> ...



by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
*



*

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-m...adesh-a-muslim-moderate-country-new-post.html


----------



## Jos (Feb 5, 2011)

> Rabbinic law based on the authority of the torah, expressed or inferred, affixes death by stoning to eighteen crimes:[7]
> 
> 1. Bestiality committed by man (Lev. xx. 15; Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, &#7730;edoshim, x. 1; Mek., Mishpa&#7789;im, 17).
> 2. Bestiality committed by woman (Lev. xx. 16: Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, &#7730;edoshim, x. 3; Mek., Mishpa&#7789;im, 17).
> ...


Stoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

Please, save the "Jews are victims" card for somebody who believes your nonsense.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Jos said:


> > Rabbinic law based on the authority of the torah, expressed or inferred, affixes death by stoning to eighteen crimes:[7]
> >
> > 1. Bestiality committed by man (Lev. xx. 15; Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, &#7730;edoshim, x. 1; Mek., Mishpa&#7789;im, 17).
> > 2. Bestiality committed by woman (Lev. xx. 16: Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, &#7730;edoshim, x. 3; Mek., Mishpa&#7789;im, 17).
> ...



That's thousands of years ago. Jews stopped doing this thousands of years ago*. Islam still does it.*

You make my point. You see it as sick, post what the Jews did many thousands of years ago and who have modernized. Thanks for making my point.

* Islam needs to be yanked into modernity.*







Jos said:


> ...



This is about Muslims killing Muslims. Read the OP.



Sunni Man said:


> Please, save the "Jews are victims" card for somebody who believes your nonsense.



This is about Muslims killing Muslims. Read the OP.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

Ropey said:


> That's thousands of years ago. Jews stopped doing this thousands of years ago. Islam still does it.


Yet the Jews "say" that they believe in the Torah as G-d's word.

But don't want to follow his laws or instructions.


----------



## Jos (Feb 5, 2011)

Some people believe the Torah is the word of God, are these laws still in the Book?


----------



## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

We don't change the book. We amend the interpretations.  And if the Jews can modernize their interpretations so that these acts do not occur in modern times. 

*Then so can Islam!*


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

Ropey said:


> And if the Jews can modernize their interpretations so that these acts do not occur in modern times.
> 
> *Then so can Islam!*


The Jews have turned their back on G-d's laws.

And use the excuse of "modernization" to justify violating the laws of the Torah.

I have read the Torah several times; 

and never once does it say to disregard G-d's laws when the Jews reach so called modernization.


Whereas; Muslims have not abandoned the Quran's laws and still enforce them.

btw Most laws found in the Quran are identical to the laws found in the Torah.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

Jos said:


> Some people believe the Torah is the word of God, are these laws still in the Book?


The Jews like to use Torah law only when it suits them and their sick Zionist agenda.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> btw Most laws found in the Quran are identical to the laws found in the Torah.



Of course. That's where they came from Sunni Man. It is not only our beliefs that are shared. So is Arab and Jewish blood. So is Iranian and Jewish blood. So is Turkish and Jewish blood.  One can not put humans together without having them build a desire to share their seed.    People can not live that close, with all the Jewish expulsions and not share their lines. 

I personally believe man needs to use his free will, and choose to move with the times. 

And Islam has yet to learn this Sunni Man. 

Now don't get me wrong Sunni Man. I am not speaking in historical terms. If you ever want enter a discussion on the historical perspective of the three religions, you would find a far different mind than the one I keep "on the ground".  

Our laws are cultural. Our Law is not. You have the same.  The word is not changed, the interpretations to the word is changed and amended to move with the times of man.  It is why we are granted free will. Why we are not enslaved to G-d. 

That's where you and I will not find agreement. The best we can do is form an understanding of each other.

I have taken your words regarding my people and made an understanding. Just as I understand your view that we must 'go back to the egg'.

I say the egg becomes the chicken. 

We are at a nexus point Sunni Man. What say you?


----------



## Jroc (Feb 5, 2011)

Ropey.. The thing you're not getting with Sunni-Man is he thinks that by siding with the most radical eliminates of Islam, it somehow legitimizes him and makes him more a part of Islam in genera.l Hes looking for legitimacy and he doesn't even realize it. he's a sad case


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

Jroc said:


> Ropey.. The thing you're not getting with Sunni-Man is he thinks that by siding with the most radical eliminates of Islam, it somehow legitimizes him and makes him more a part of Islam in general. Hes looking for legitimacy and he doesn't even realize it. he's a sad case


I am a moderate Muslim and do not side with the radical side of Islam.

But, I do follow the religion and agree with the main stream tenants if Islamic thought.


----------



## Jroc (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey.. The thing you're not getting with Sunni-Man is he thinks that by siding with the most radical eliminates of Islam, it somehow legitimizes him and makes him more a part of Islam in general. Hes looking for legitimacy and he doesn't even realize it. he's a sad case
> ...



Really?.. Go back and read you own posts, they speak for themselves


----------



## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey.. The thing you're not getting with Sunni-Man is he thinks that by siding with the most radical eliminates of Islam, it somehow legitimizes him and makes him more a part of Islam in general. He&#8217;s looking for legitimacy and he doesn't even realize it. he's a sad case
> ...



I find it hard to, but I accept that what Sunni Man says is what he believes Jroc so I need to try and go deeper. 

I further accept, by accepting Kalam and Sunni Man as self proclaimed moderate converts, that what they say is of "Moderate Converted Muslims".  

I have seen this same thing with many "moderates" who follow spiritual jihad rather than the physical jihad.

It boils down to the same thing because the actions that are performed by the radicals and whose effects are minimized by the moderates show what the reality is and that reality is a cultural backwardness that is the nexus to which I speak.

Do you remember when Sunni Man said he would not be bothered at all if the Dutch Cartoonist was murdered most foully by decapitation. 

He would not do it. He will leave that up to those on physical jihad. 

So, I'm getting it I think.


----------



## Grace (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey.. The thing you're not getting with Sunni-Man is he thinks that by siding with the most radical eliminates of Islam, it somehow legitimizes him and makes him more a part of Islam in general. Hes looking for legitimacy and he doesn't even realize it. he's a sad case
> ...



So...you are a sheep?


----------



## Grace (Feb 5, 2011)

> Do you remember when Sunni Man said he would not be bothered at all if the Dutch Cartoonist was murdered most foully by decapitation.
> 
> He would not do it. He will leave that up to those on physical jihad.



So. He himself would not do it, but he himself would find no wrong in it. Isn't that an oxymoron in some perverse way? Do as I say, not as I do sorta thing? Or better yet, he has been assimilated and thinks as a collective and there is nothing rolling around in that brain of his that says "whoa. Something is wrong with this picture" and doesn't even question it?


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 5, 2011)

IMEURU said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Nope


----------



## Intense (Feb 5, 2011)

Jos said:


> > Rabbinic law based on the authority of the torah, expressed or inferred, affixes death by stoning to eighteen crimes:[7]
> >
> > 1. Bestiality committed by man (Lev. xx. 15; Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, &#7730;edoshim, x. 1; Mek., Mishpa&#7789;im, 17).
> > 2. Bestiality committed by woman (Lev. xx. 16: Sanh. vii. 4, 54b; Sifra, &#7730;edoshim, x. 3; Mek., Mishpa&#7789;im, 17).
> ...



Can you show this in present use Jos? How far back do you need to go in time to show the Jew's living under "Death by Stoning"? When was the last time it was practiced by Jew's?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 5, 2011)

Ropey said:


> self proclaimed moderate converts



Please show where I have described myself in this manner.


----------



## Intense (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Khan estimated that about 200 villagers participated in the executions, including Khayyams father and brother, and Siddiqas brother, as well as other relatives, with a larger crowd of onlookers who did not take part.
> ...



You sincerely believe that punishment fit the crime? They Eloped. They were Married in God's Eye's. Should you stone the person that did the Ceremony too? It's total Bullshit Suni. The fact that it needs to be explained to you is evidence of a real problem. Tell me more about Sharia Compliance and The Cordoba Initiative.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 5, 2011)

Intense said:


> You sincerely believe that punishment fit the crime? They Eloped. They were Married in God's Eye's.



You don't speak for God.


----------



## impalero (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Khan estimated that about 200 villagers participated in the executions, including Khayyams father and brother, and Siddiqas brother, as well as other relatives, with a larger crowd of onlookers who did not take part.
> ...



In my moral code I would like to see the whole area where this took place bombed until everything is a smoking ruin.

You are anyone else should not feel any outrage at that statement though because it is my moral code, and I am entitled to it.

Do you see the brain teaser I have thrown your way?

It's not a big deal if the couple was killed you say since it was withing their law, and likewise, it would not be a big deal if the whole village was vaporized because it is within my moral code.

No big deal


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## Jos (Feb 5, 2011)

Intense said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > > Rabbinic law based on the authority of the torah, expressed or inferred, affixes death by stoning to eighteen crimes:[7]
> ...


I don't know but anyone who protested against that  jewish law would be crucified, oh wait Crucifixion of Jesus - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > self proclaimed moderate converts
> ...



You have said that you do not ascribe and have never ascribed to extremism.

That doesn't mean moderate? How should I have taken that?


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## Kalam (Feb 5, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



I don't think I used the word extremism either, but I may have. 

I meant precisely what I said and nothing more.


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## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



I think you were actually saying it as a disclaimer. That's what it seemed to me. As if one was just being sure that...


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## Kalam (Feb 5, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Think whatever you want.


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## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Oh I will. I don't submit.


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## impalero (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > It's a human rights violation.
> ...



Indeed, it was a criminal act that they carried out, and those responsible should stoned to death with small rocks, not to big that it would knock them out, and not to small where it does no damage. 

Thats the islamic way


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## impalero (Feb 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> What about the "Rights" of the villagers to cleanse their village of criminals?



I think we should do away with international and government law in the US and just behead any muslims we come across, what do you say to that?

We should be free to do that correct if there are enough in a city or small town that supports it?


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## Ropey (Feb 5, 2011)

When logic and proportion have fallen.

Remember what the dormouse said?  Whilst the March Hare and Mad Hatter were putting him in the teapot?


*Feed your head.  That's the Western way. *


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## Kalam (Feb 5, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Has someone asked you to?


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## Intense (Feb 5, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > You sincerely believe that punishment fit the crime? They Eloped. They were Married in God's Eye's.
> ...



You do? 

How about "Do Not Kill". 

You don't see Sin in that, huh. You wouldn't. 

You know where to take your Sharia compliance Kalam. The Law is Predatory, as are those that condone it and take pleasure in it. You are some Sick Fucks Kalam.


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## Intense (Feb 5, 2011)

Jos said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...



You are scoring Zero right now. I guess you will just have to be left back again.


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## Kalam (Feb 5, 2011)

Intense said:


> You do?


No.



Intense said:


> How about "Do Not Kill".


How about it? Leave Iraq and Afghanistan.



Intense said:


> You don't see Sin in that, huh. You wouldn't.
> 
> You know where to take your Sharia compliance Kalam. The Law is Predatory, as are those that condone it and take pleasure in it. You are some Sick Fucks Kalam.


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## Intense (Feb 5, 2011)

impalero said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > What about the "Rights" of the villagers to cleanse their village of criminals?
> ...



What about the fact that they were tricked into returning, for the purpose of executing them. It was a Human Rights Violation. It seems the more we see of True Islam, the more we see Human Rights Violations. Thank You for the clarity you bring.


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## Intense (Feb 5, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > You do?
> ...





> How about it? Leave Iraq and Afghanistan.



How about All Muslim's leave the rest of us The Fuck alone??? 

Fuck You and Sharia Law you Satanist.  Have a nice day.


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## Kalam (Feb 5, 2011)

Intense said:


> How about All Muslim's leave the rest of us The Fuck alone???
> 
> Fuck You and Sharia Law you Satanist.  Have a nice day.



QFP.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Feb 6, 2011)

Madeline said:


> I honestly don't know how I feel, Quantum Windbag.  I want the wars to end and our soldiers to come home.  I want peace in Afghanistan.  I want the Taliban eradicated.  If the situation is truely hopeless, I see no point in expending American lives there, postponing the inevitable.
> 
> Mostly, I just feel shocked and saddened.



Dont worry kalam or  sunniman will be along to dry your tears and  alleviate your fears . Nothing bad  that happens ever has  any justification in Islam ever no matter  what.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Feb 6, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > You sincerely believe that punishment fit the crime? They Eloped. They were Married in God's Eye's.
> ...



Neither did mohammad.


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## Vargulf (Feb 6, 2011)

Women are always persecuted and subjugated in Islam.  
When a girl is but a small child in Islam, she trusts, believes in and loves her parents.  In return, they betray that love and trust by forcibly marrying her off to older men who seek children for sex and men whom they do not love.  Ultimately the females are forced into a life of servitude to men they neither love nor want to allow them touching her; subjecting the girls to repeated rape by husbands they do not want.  Their life: one of misery; hence the self-immolation that is frequently seen.
Women in those backward nations should be allowed to find and marry whom they chose, even if the choice isn't one the parents want for them.  If the marriage doesn't work out, then they get divorced and find someone else.  But, at least it would be their freedom of choice.  
As for the concept of: "well, that's their country and that's their laws," that doesn't make it right.  Female genital mutilation has been in northern africa for a countless centuries, but governments are pushing such nations to end it, as are women who were once forced to undergo such a barbaric practise.  It completely destroys the woman's ability to enjoy the intimacy as men do.  Just because something barbaric has been done for centuries, doesn't make it right.
I hate all organized religions.  No one, not a single individual has ever proven there to be an invisible bearded man in the sky who periodically grants wishes.  The concept is so childish and absurd, yet many people keep clinging to the concept, simply because they've been brainwashed into it.  Worse yet is people forcing others to abide by religious edicts from people claiming to speak on behalf of the invisible bearded man.  Humans are so gullible, it's pathetic.  They just don't get it that the so-called religious sholars are only pushing such agendas to serve themselves.  They love seeing the gullible jump through hoops to please them.


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## Jos (Feb 6, 2011)

Vargulf said:


> Women are always persecuted and subjugated in Islam.


Why have you formed that perception?


> Some women have achieved high political office in Muslim majority states.


Women in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ropey (Feb 6, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> *What about the "Rights" of the villagers to cleanse their village of criminals?*





> *Amid a global outcry over a couple stoned to death for adultery in Afghanistan,* Eliza Griswold asks why an Islamic law designed to protect women&#8217;s rights is being used against them today.







*Woman stoned to death in north Afghanistan | Turkic Press*

*Afghan Runaways Flee Forced Marriages | Turkic Press*

The stoning lasts two minutes. Hundreds of rocks &#8211; some larger than a man&#8217;s fist &#8211; are thrown at her head and body. She tries to crawl out of the hole, but is beaten back by the stones. A boulder is then thrown at her head, her burka is soaked in blood, and she collapses inside the hole.






Sunni Man said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > It's a human rights violation.
> ...



No, it was a human rights violation. This brings to mind the Arab lack of uncaring for their black brethren in Africa while they kill their entire tribes of men and boys, raping the women in order to remove a black tribe and install and Arab tribe. 

The religion of peace?


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## Jos (Feb 7, 2011)

Jos said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


you have received -40 reputation points from Ropey.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
thousands of years ago and compared with today? Your hatred shows clear.


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## Ropey (Feb 7, 2011)

Jos said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...



And it does.  You compare what is happening today with Muslims to what happened thousands of years ago with Jews. 

I believe that what you did there deserves what I gave you. 

Compare fairly or I will neg you when it is obscene, and comparing the stoning of thousands of years ago to a couple killed in the present as well as turning a thread about Afghan newlyweds into a Jew hate post where you quote yourself with more ancient Jewish history is obscene.

For that I negged you.


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## LibocalypseNow (Feb 7, 2011)

Biggest lessons learned here?...Muslims be CRAAAAZZZY!!!! & Don't live in a Muslim Country. Class dismissed. Have a nice day.


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## Jos (Feb 7, 2011)

LibocalypseNow said:


> Biggest lessons learned here?...Muslims be CRAAAAZZZY!!!! & Don't live in a Muslim Country. Class dismissed. Have a nice day.



Dont live in a Muslim country coveted by the USA
Indonesian killings of 1965?1966 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## JStone (Aug 30, 2011)

Jos said:


> Vargulf said:
> 
> 
> > Women are always persecuted and subjugated in Islam.
> ...



Alah is a misogynist 

Quran 4:34


> Allah has made men superior to women because men spend their wealth to support them. Therefore, virtuous women are obedient, and they are to guard their unseen parts as Allah has guarded them. As for women whom you fear will rebel, admonish them first, and then send them to a separate bed, and then beat them. But if they are obedi-ent after that, then do nothing further; surely Allah is exalted and great!



Sharia law...


> When a husband notices signs of rebelliousness in his wife whether in words as when she answers him coldly when she used to do so politely, or he asks her to come to bed and she refuses, con-trary to her usual habit; or whether in acts, as when he finds her averse to him when she was previously kind and cheerful, he warns her in words without keeping from her or hitting her, for it may be that she has an excuse.
> 
> The warning could be to tell her, "Fear Allah concerning the rights you owe to me,"
> 
> ...


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## HUGGY (Aug 31, 2011)

People that believe in a foundation of fantasy are not capable of making rational decisions.


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