# Country With the World's Most Successful Education System



## Bfgrn (Nov 22, 2009)

thisisFINLAND: Facts: Education & research


> All Finnish kids address their teachers by their first names, as the students at Helsinki's Strömberg School do, but many other aspects of education at this school can be considered progressive no matter where you're from.






> The teachers are respected; high talent is attracted into teaching; it is considered to be one of the most important professions.
> 
> -Finnish Prime Minister, Matti Vanhanen





We probably don't need to go much beyond the above quote to explain the great success of Finland's educational system.

Although the country is comparatively small, Finland has the principal research and development offices of Nokia -- along with 800 other high-tech companies, some overflowing their expertise into neighboring Russia.

This country, not too far from the Arctic circle, is considered to be in the top three of the worlds most competitive countries.

The reason seems clear: its educational system.

The Finnish government keeps the pressure on students to a point that they complain of a lack of fun at school. At the same time, there are no nationwide exams or even final tests. There is continuous assessment -- a mixture of monthly tests and teacher evaluations.

The Finns make sure that all children get fed by providing free meals at school. They subsidize student travel, which they feel is a major part of the education process.

However badly behaved, no student fears expulsion. The emphasis is "getting to the bottom of" whatever behavior problems emerge.

Only 15 per cent of those who apply to be teachers are accepted, even though pay levels are about average for Europe. A masters degree is required. (Not unrelated, for it's size this country has one of the highest percentage of Ph.D.s in the world.) Teachers are regularly sent on courses during their long holidays to upgrade their knowledge and skills.

The Finns focus on students in need and reject a class-stratified educational system. They feel that equality in the classroom ends up being a plus and not a hindrance to overall progress.

Thus, the educational gap between the "haves" and the "have-not's" shrinks, and the overall level of student and adult achievement in the country is raised.

http://www.cybercollege.com/plume.htm


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## Zona (Nov 22, 2009)

I thought the united states was the best country in the world.  Between medical, educational and basic standards of living, we suck.  Especially child mortality rates.


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## Dr.Traveler (Nov 23, 2009)

But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work 

I'd point out, that the big secret here is that Finland has made education a priority, something many of the individual States in the Union did not do.  The States hit the hardest by the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas are often the States that prioritized education lowest.

There are good high paying jobs in the USA still, and good successful companies looking for homes.  The trick is, to get that job, and to draw in that company you and your community have had to make education a priority.


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## Charles Stucker (Nov 23, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> The Finnish government keeps the pressure on students to a point that they complain of a lack of fun at school. At the same time, there are no nationwide exams or even final tests. There is continuous assessment -- a mixture of monthly tests and teacher evaluations


This is the secret source of Finnish success. 
The school pushes the students.
It is tough.
NO cakewalk social promotion bull here.
Hence, students learn.


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## Douger (Nov 23, 2009)

Dr.Traveler said:


> But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work
> 
> I'd point out, that the big secret here is that Finland has made education a priority, something many of the individual States in the Union did not do.  The States hit the hardest by the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas are often the States that prioritized education lowest.
> 
> There are good high paying jobs in the USA still, and good successful companies looking for homes.  The trick is, to get that job, and to draw in that company you and your community have had to make education a priority.


Pffffffft.
Boston Scientific to leave Doral - South Florida Business Journal:


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## Truthmatters (Nov 23, 2009)

Charles Stucker said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > The Finnish government keeps the pressure on students to a point that they complain of a lack of fun at school. At the same time, there are no nationwide exams or even final tests. There is continuous assessment -- a mixture of monthly tests and teacher evaluations
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I think you are ignoring all the other aspects of their teaching methods.

Anything we do to improve education will involve a finacial investment and the only answer the conservatives have to that idea is "throwing money at the problem" is wrong.

Every corporation who seeks to improve any aspect of their business starts by an investment in the future operations ("throwing money at the problem") yet people refuse to allow any attempts to do so in our government.


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## uscitizen (Nov 23, 2009)

Much of the problems with the US education fall back upon the parents and citizens of the USA.

Many just use school as a babysitter and feeder of their children.
Parent participation is miserable.  You will see a direct correletion between the levels of parent participation and student achievements.
And I am not talking about participating in soccer or somesuch.


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## Truthmatters (Nov 23, 2009)

You cant force parents to participate. You have to do what they do and feed them a decent meal and then engauge their minds while they are at school.

That is what this system does and it works.


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## Dr.Traveler (Nov 23, 2009)

Douger said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
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Ouch.


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## Samson (Dec 5, 2009)

Dr.Traveler said:


> But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work
> 
> I'd point out, that the big secret here is that Finland has made education a priority, something many of the individual States in the Union did not do.




PHHHTTTTTTTtttttttt.......

Hope this already hasn't been mentioned, but here goes:

1. I wonder, how many FSL (Finnish as Second Language) Finland Has?

2. I wonder, how much Racial Diversity Finland Has?

Let's compare ourselves with other apples instead of oragnes.


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## Annie (Dec 5, 2009)

Samson said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
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Not much diversity:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fi.html

Ethnic groups:

Finn 93.4%, Swede 5.6%, Russian 0.5%, Estonian 0.3%, Roma (Gypsy) 0.1%, Sami 0.1% (2006)
Religions:

Lutheran Church of Finland 82.5%, Orthodox Church 1.1%, other Christian 1.1%, other 0.1%, none 15.1% (2006)
Languages:

Finnish 91.2% (official), Swedish 5.5% (official), other 3.3% (small Sami- and Russian-speaking minorities) (2007)
Literacy:

definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 100%
male: 100%
female: 100% (2000 est.)
School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):

total: 17 years
male: 17 years
female: 18 years (2006)


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## Samson (Dec 5, 2009)

Annie said:


> Not much diversity:
> 
> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fi.html
> 
> )





I'm so shocked.

I wonder what US schools would be able to achieve with these demographics?


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## Bfgrn (Dec 5, 2009)

Samson said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
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OR we could make excuses...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*With free, high-quality education for all*
Finland's repeated success in the PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) study has focused widespread international attention on the country's school system and its support for lifelong learning. They form the basis of this excellence.

Finnish teenagers' maths, science and reading skills are rated at or close to the top of the nearly 60 countries assessed in the PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) study.

A three-yearly appraisal of 15-year-olds in the principal industrialised countries, PISA is organised by the OECD (Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development). For the results gathered in 2006 and published in 2007, a total of 4,714 students from 155 schools took part in Finland.

In that PISA study, special attention was paid to natural sciences, in which Finnish 15-year-olds came out on top by a large margin ahead of Japan, Hong Kong and Korea. Finland's score of 563 points in this category was also the highest total ever recorded in a PISA study.

In reading comprehension Finnish youngsters ranked second after South Korea, and in mathematics they trailed top-scorer Chinese Taipei by only one point.

*Understanding children's needs*

According to the survey, the strength of the Finnish school system is that it guarantees equal learning opportunities, regardless of social background. Instead of comparison between pupils, the focus is on supporting and guiding pupils with special needs. Very few children need to be made to repeat a year.

The teaching staff in Finnish schools is highly educated. Qualifications for all school levels require a Master of Arts degree including extensive pedagogical study and qualifications in special subjects.

Small children's feelings of safety and motivation are increased by the fact that they are taught by a single teacher. Also, although students receive progress evaluations, scaled grading is not introduced until the fifth year. Finnish schools aim for natural, warm relations between teachers and pupils.
*
Comprehensive school*

Comprehensive school education is provided by the child's home municipality, and the network of primary-level schools is dense. Instruction and all basic education materials are free of charge for the children, and services include a free hot lunch every day, school healthcare and free transport for children who live too far from the school to walk or use public transport.

Preschool instruction is provided for six-year-olds. This is voluntary, but almost the entire age group participates.

Instruction is provided in both official languages, Finnish and Swedish. In major cities schooling is available in other languages as well. Special schools exist for disabled or hospitalised children. Practically every Finnish child goes to school.

Inside Finnish schools

Classes number about 30 pupils per age group, usually less in the younger classes. For the first six years of comprehensive school, the children are instructed by a class teacher. Instruction during the last three years of comprehensive school is taken over by subject teachers. Pupils are also given special instruction if needed for speech impediments and for reading and writing problems or similar special needs.

Comprehensive school subjects include native language and literature; other languages; environmental studies; civics; religion or ethics; history; social studies; mathematics; physics; chemistry; biology; geography; physical education; music; art; handicrafts and home economics. The goals of instruction and the core curriculum are the same nationwide, but the local authorities and schools draw up their own local curricula on that basis.

*Emphasis on languages*

Finnish schools emphasize foreign language studies. The first foreign language is generally introduced in the third year of comprehensive school and the second domestic language (Swedish for Finnish-speaking pupils and Finnish for Swedish speakers) in the seventh year, if not sooner.

In addition, pupils may opt for up to six different languages by the completion of upper secondary level. The most common foreign languages are English, German, French, Russian and Spanish.

Immigrants with native languages other than Finnish or Swedish receive special instruction in Finnish as a second language. Municipally funded instruction in the children's native language is provided twice a week.


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## slackjawed (Dec 5, 2009)

I have a good friend that went on his mission in 1988-89 (he is LDS) in Finland. He says that it was the a very intolerant country and he was beat up several times, had his copies of the book of mormon seized repeatedly, was locked up in jail 3 times for giving copies of the book of mormon away. he was finally deported by the finish govt. as an 'undesirable alien".
Now that is an educated country. Teach the kids to be intolerant and only allow the government approved point of view to be disseminated among the public.


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## Samson (Dec 5, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Samson said:
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Excuses for not having? ....what exactly? A school system like Finland?

Do I really need to post demographic data for the USA so we can understand that we're comparing two completely different govenments, geographies, histories, cultures, etc., etc?


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## Big Fitz (Dec 5, 2009)

Zona said:


> I thought the united states was the best country in the world.  Between medical, educational and basic standards of living, we suck.  Especially child mortality rates.


What's the cancer survival rates in all those vaunted state run medical systems?  20%?  25%?  35%

In the US, what is it again?  75-85%.

Do those other nations report as 'infant mortality', abortions, stillborn and other less than stellar statistics, lumping them in the whole?  The answer is "nope".

That said, we have a long way to improve, just not as long as they have to go.

Is the Finnish education model scalable to the population levels of the US?


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## uscitizen (Dec 5, 2009)

Waah It is all the immigrants fault!

Ohh wait most all of us are immigrants or descended from immigrants


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## Bfgrn (Dec 5, 2009)

Samson said:


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Cuckoo? 
So tell me, is America falling way behind in all areas except arresting and incarcerating human beings because certain ethnic groups are unable to learn? Or...maybe America has become an Oligarchy, and the Reagan revolution and the Contract with America were really a contract to sell out a vital middle class for wealthy corporations and a powerful elite?

THEIR kids aren't suffering are they?


*Top of the Class*
First broadcast September 2007

Finnish children

*Education matters - so what do we know about the best ways to do it?*

In this two-part series Owen Bennett-Jones visits educational establishments which have been judged to be the best - whether by tests or surveys - to find out what they can tell us about the best educational practices.

*Part One - Finland*

 Listen to the programme

Finland which has been judged to have the best educational system in the world. Here all schools get good results, teachers have extensive training and children don't start school until they are seven years old.

It's education for all. And each child matters. *So what lessons can we learn from Finland?*

America say NOTHING...you f_cking leftists don't know shit!


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## Big Fitz (Dec 5, 2009)

I would like to know how much time in a Finnish school are the kids forced to learn about multi-cultural diversity and hatred for their own nation?  How much time is wasted on feelings and tolerance studies as compared to the sciences and math and other aspects of REAL education?

Why oh why do I have suspicions this has something to do with their doing better.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 5, 2009)

The OP itself demonstrates the failure of our education system. 

The entire nation of Finland has less people than the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens combined.  If we had no teacher union in those three boroughs and left the schools in the hands of the communities and parents, the top of our graduating class would be the best in the world, while the worst could all work for ACORN.


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## rdean (Dec 5, 2009)

Samson said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
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We have to deal with reality.  We have two wars we are fighting and two other countries to rebuild after the wars.  Republicans are pushing to start more.  Not sure where "race" fits in there.

Education just isn't a priority in this country.  Only about 6% of scientists are Republican.  Republicans make up about half the country.  What does that tell you about education?  Half the country wants to teach "magical creation" and believe that colleges have been taken over by "elitist" liberals who teach communism.  

Public Praises Science; Scientists Fault Public, Media: Section 4: Scientists, Politics and Religion - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

Naturally, we are against abortion and that means lots of kids we refuse to take care of.  

Healthcare in Finland - KELA Card - Finnish Health Centres - Hospitals in Finland

Abortion is allowed in Finland in cases where childbirth will cause a health risk for the woman or if pregnancy and childbirth would cause a significant strain on the womans life (meaning:  if the woman had already had four children, or if, owing to disease or mental disturbance, one or both parents would be unable to raise the child). Women under 17 years of age and over 40 years of age are allowed to request an abortion on the basis of their age.

Don't see it getting better until this generation of Republicans die off.  They are just too entrenched in "stupid". 

What's an "oragne"?


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 5, 2009)

How big are the Finish as a second language classes?

Nice work Samson.  Beat me to it


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 5, 2009)

rdean said:


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Rdean is a prime example of our piss poor education system.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 5, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> The OP itself demonstrates the failure of our education system.
> 
> The entire nation of Finland has less people than the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens combined.  If we had no teacher union in those three boroughs and left the schools in the hands of the communities and parents, the top of our graduating class would be the best in the world, while the worst could all work for ACORN.


That's why I asked if their system was scalable.  If it is not as effectual at 50 times... maybe 100 times it's size, this is not a valid comparison really.  It's still good, but... like grapefruit and oranges.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 5, 2009)

The goal of our educational system is to keep as many people wedded to the teat of Big Gubbamint as humanly possible so in that respect, its a grand slam


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## rdean (Dec 5, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


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I just dropped a lot of truth on your tiny head AND cleared up some misconceptions.  Too bad you are too blind to see it.  An index finger in each ear, eyes tightly closed, singing the "La la" song will do that.  But hey, it's got a good beat.


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## Bfgrn (Dec 5, 2009)

rdean said:


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Rdean...I've come to believe pea brainism is a vehement choice... 

"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
*Robert F. Kennedy Jr.*


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 5, 2009)

Yeah, the Left LOVEEEEEEEEEEEES real science, like how the Hungry CO2 Spaghetti Monster is eating all the Glaciers.


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## chanel (Dec 5, 2009)

Special schools for the disabled? Yeah That would go over well with the ACLU - not.


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## blu (Dec 5, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Yeah, the Left LOVEEEEEEEEEEEES real science, like how the Hungry CO2 Spaghetti Monster is eating all the Glaciers.



once you are touched by his noodly appendage, you too will melt in his glory


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 5, 2009)

Zona said:


> I thought the united states was the best country in the world.  Between medical, educational and basic standards of living, we suck.  Especially child mortality rates.



At some point you'll begin to question why you've been lied to.

 Infant mortality? So, Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate? On January 2, 2009 they announced 4.7 out of every 1,000 for 2008. Seem believable? Well, maybe the number, but calculated in 48 hours? It takes the US about two years to get all the data for our. One reason that Cuba has a low infant mortality, and the corresponding high life expectancy, is because they induce abortion at the first sign of possible trouble with a fetus. Cuba's annual induced abortion rate persistently ranks among the highest in the world, and abortion plays a prominent role in Cuban fertility regulation.
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

And, of course, there are a variety of ways that infant mortality statistics are measured. While 40% of Americas infant mortality rate is due to reporting of infants who die on the day of their birth, many countries dont register such deaths at all. Other countries require specific size (Switzerland, 30 cm) and weights (Austria and Germany, 500 gms) to be listed as having been born.
Bernadine Healy, M.D.: Behind the baby count - US News and World Report

Rarely reported in comparing infant mortality rates it the negative effect of very pre-term babies, whose death rate is far higher than full term.  When comparing the US infant mortality rate to such category-stars as in this NYTimes report of 11/4/09:
If the United States could match Swedens prematurity rate, the new report said, nearly 8,000 infant deaths would be averted each year, and the U.S. infant mortality rate would be one-third lower.

We find the usual anti-US slant of the Times, in not mentioning that race is the reason:

The use of this example highlights to disingenuousness of the authors. In their supposedly detailed report on infant mortality, they fail to analyze the most important detail: race. Unfortunately, African descent is a major risk factor for prematurity, and prematurity is a major cause of infant mortality. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that the US has a higher infant mortality rate than Sweden. The US has the highest proportion of women of African descent of any first world country. Sweden, of course, has virtually none. So our higher rate of infant mortality does not reflect poor medical care. It reflects factors beyond the control of doctors. Race is an uncontrollable factor; obstetricians and pediatricians have no control over assisted reproductive techniques. In fact, the data actually show obstetricians and pediatricians do a remarkable job of ensuring infant health.

Infant mortality report neglects the most important detail - AmyTuteurMD - Open Salon

One factor contributing to the U.S.'s infant mortality rate is that blacks have intractably high infant mortality rates -- irrespective of age, education, socioeconomic status and so on. No one knows why. 

Neither medical care nor discrimination can explain it: Hispanics in the U.S. have lower infant mortality rates than either blacks or whites. Give Switzerland or Japan our ethnically diverse population and see how they stack up on infant mortality rates.
A Statistical Analysis of Maritime Unemployment Rates, 1946-1948. Just Kidding, More Liberal Lies About National Healthcare! - HUMAN EVENTS


Along the same line, once deaths due to homicide and auto accidents are removed from the statistics, the US has the greatest life expectancy in the world.


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 5, 2009)

Annie said:


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i notice there is not a lot of 3rd worlders sitting in their classrooms....


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 5, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


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what happened to California? ....top 5 to no. 48.....mmmmm


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 5, 2009)

uscitizen said:


> Waah It is all the immigrants fault!
> 
> Ohh wait most all of us are immigrants or descended from immigrants



how many non-finnish speakers from the 3rd world are flooding their classrooms?.....just wonderin...


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 5, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


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what happened to California?.....


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 5, 2009)

rdean said:


> We have to deal with reality.  We have two wars we are fighting and two other countries to rebuild after the wars.  Republicans are pushing to start more.  Not sure where "race" fits in there.
> 
> Education just isn't a priority in this country.  Only about 6% of scientists are Republican.  Republicans make up about half the country.  What does that tell you about education?  Half the country wants to teach "magical creation" and believe that colleges have been taken over by "elitist" liberals who teach communism.
> 
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it will get better when extremist leftist like you and your extremist buddies on the right die off.....if anyone is "entrenched" in stupid its you and your extremist butt buddies.....you should be an example of a late term abortion....a real late one...


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 5, 2009)

Big Fitz said:


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the County i live in has 3.5 mil....thats about 1.5 mil less than their whole country.....


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 5, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


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and you two along with your buddies Midcant and Zona are the best examples we have to offer.....


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## mightypeon (Dec 6, 2009)

Well: Hint: Take the most "white" county of the states and compare it to Finland. Than see if their is a difference. Then marvel at the Finnish education system.

its really simple: Better Teachers -> Better Teaching -> Better pupils -> Better educational system.

So how do you get better teachers? Propably by having "Teacher" as a respectable job that pays decently enough. 

Secondly: Who is better in guaging the progress of a student? Some kind of nationwide test or the teacher that actually works with the student? The USA goes for "Nationwide test", the Fins go for the decentralised small state solution: "leave that to the teacher who actually teaches the kid on a daily basis".

In precisly what way would these changes be hampered by beeing "A big heterogenous nation"?
And Change number 2 would actually safe money, since one could fire all the beurocrats responsible for running stupid nation wade student assesment tests.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 6, 2009)

Harry Dresden said:


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Yep.  The Twin Cities has about as many people as your county if you include the whole 6 county area.  I'd be happy to have them try to transplant the system here, but I'm not sure how they're going to deal with all the rather... ummmm... STRIDENT immigrant groups that refuse to integrate cleanly if at all.  The new Somali immigrants have carved themselves out of integration mostly on linguistic, religious and racial grounds.  At least that's been my observation.  Others would do great except for language issues where the tongue spoke at home is not English, but that's minor in comparison.

Oh well, I suspect it's always this way for first generation immigrants.  But what really kinda makes me go WTF is that many of them don't even really want to stay in the US.  They just want to be away from the war in Somalia and will return the instant it's over.  So they're not really immigrants as much as ex-pats en masse.  They can be really decent people to know... but you have to realize how alien their culture is from that in the US and that can be very problematic for some.

I just use the Somalis because it's the most obvious and clear cut example I have.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 6, 2009)

> So how do you get better teachers? Propably by having "Teacher" as a respectable job that pays decently enough.



Most teachers in the DC area are extremely well paid and respected by the liberals who live there.  They still have the worst education system in the nation.  The problem isn't with paying the teachers better than what they can get in the private sector, it's the administrative waste and social engineering they're trying to do through the system to perpetuate a political mindset.  Most of the cash is sucked up by the lawyers and the unions and the admins and all things NOT related to the schools operations in many cases.

Then you get dumbasses who've never had to be effective in their life with creating quality.. just used to getting paid for time in grade and for college credits.  That is how teachers are paid in the public sector for the vast majority of the jobs.  It's the union way.  You've been in job 5 years and have a masters and you get paid this much.  There is no difference in pay between the best and the worst teacher in pay.  If you based pay on performance benefits as measured through an independent accounting, you'd see both quality rise and shit teachers get removed.

Performance pay is the best way to ensure quality jobs.  Or even if you don't do a 'commission style' bonus system, you base raises on performance, you'd still be light years ahead because effort would be rewarded, not ignored.


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## Big Fitz (Dec 6, 2009)

> Secondly: Who is better in guaging the progress of a student? Some kind of nationwide test or the teacher that actually works with the student? The USA goes for "Nationwide test", the Fins go for the decentralised small state solution: "leave that to the teacher who actually teaches the kid on a daily basis".



The DOE needs to be dismantled and given back to each individual state.  Not only is a national education system unconstitutional, it's incredibly ineffectual and inefficient.  Power and resources pool at the top where it is far removed from main street.  Each state should be given those resources to do with as they see fit.  Better still would be for the states to then turn them over to the individual communities.  It'd be preferable if at best you had either a state graduation board the students had to pass, or if you MUST have a national standards evaluation given to the students, but even that's overstepping a lot.


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## Samson (Dec 6, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


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ERM.....yeah....I shouldn't have said ..."..cuckoo...."

What I should have said was:


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## Big Fitz (Dec 6, 2009)

> It's education for all. And each child matters. So what lessons can we learn from Finland?



Um... drop social engineering, diversity training, feelgood studies, participation awards and multiculturalism and get to real education?  Just sayin'.



> America say NOTHING...you f_cking leftists don't know shit!



Wait... you're saying your conservative???  And you're touting a socialist (all be it decent) system?


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## Samson (Dec 6, 2009)

Big Fitz said:


> > It's education for all. And each child matters. So what lessons can we learn from Finland?
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> Um... drop social engineering, diversity training, feelgood studies, participation awards and multiculturalism and get to real education?  Just sayin'.



Yes, what we can learn from Finland (where there is no "diversity") is:

_*Given the chance to concentrate on the teaching and learning of subject matter, Teachers and Students perform pretty well.*_

Yes, I know, its pretty shocking, and even more astonishing is that I didn't apply for a $100,000 Government Grant to spend a couple of years gathering data to support this conclusion, which would certainly insure I would become the parriah of the "Educational Establishment."


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## rdean (Dec 6, 2009)

Harry Dresden said:


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Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Personal stories rarely translate into what is going on nationwide, but I work in an engineering department.  Two of the engineers came from Mexico and learned English here.  Both also work part time.  One tutors physics at the University of Chicago, the other works part time managing another companies data base.  A third engineer comes from Bolivia.  She also learned English here and is now the head electrical engineer.  A fourth engineer comes from Pakistan but already spoke English when he came here.  Another engineer just started and she also learned English here and is from Mexico.  And finally, another engineer quit and started his own company in California.  He learned English here and came from India.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students.  They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives.  Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 7, 2009)

rdean said:


> Not sure what that has to do with anything.*
> 
> Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students.  *They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives.  Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.



hey Dean.....come to California.....this is and has been one of the bigger problems in the grade schools for quite some time.....it was a problem at my sons school when he was in grade school....and he is 30 now.....and according to the mothers with grade schoolers now....it still is....and grade school is were these kids have got to learn the basics.....


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

rdean said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...



You're absolutely correct: there IS a LARGE element of Parental Responsibility involved.

So why would Finnish parents be better parents than US parents?

Another question you might ask your colleagues: Why didn't they go to work in Finland?


----------



## rdean (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Dresden said:
> ...



Because most could "drive" here?


----------



## rdean (Dec 7, 2009)

Harry Dresden said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure what that has to do with anything.*
> ...



Sorry, I'm not feeling it.  Because other students speak Spanish your son's grades suffer?  
Did he even like school?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Dr.Traveler said:


> But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work
> 
> I'd point out, that the big secret here is that Finland has made education a priority, something many of the individual States in the Union did not do.  The States hit the hardest by the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas are often the States that prioritized education lowest.
> 
> There are good high paying jobs in the USA still, and good successful companies looking for homes.  The trick is, to get that job, and to draw in that company you and your community have had to make education a priority.



Several times I have indicated a deep interest in education on the board, and have championed traditional education and abhorred progressive education.

For those reasons, I was interested in the OP, and a topic about which I knew very little, education in Finland. I engaged in some study, which allows me to argue against the nature of the thread.

The essence of the thread, it seemed to me was a) Finland does a much better job in educating than we do in America, b) Finland uses progressive education, c) progressive education is effective.

As in any discussion, a definition of terms is often de rigueur, especially were some point is supposedly made. These are some of my notes about education in Finland.

1. Education after primary school is divided into vocational and academic systems, according to the old German model. ages 1519 are spent either in a trade school, or in an academic-oriented upper secondary school. Their integration has been tried (so-called "youth school" experiments), but the conclusion was to keep them separate

2. A national speciality in contrast to some foreign systems is the academic matriculation diploma (Abitur) received after successful completion of upper secondary school, which holds a high prestige. Education in Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Upper secondary school, unlike vocational school, concludes with a nationally graded matriculation examination (ylioppilastutkinto, studentexamen). Passing the test is a de facto prerequisite for further education. The system is designed so that approximately the lowest scoring 5% fails and also 5% get the best grade. The exam allows for a limited degree of specialization in either natural sciences or social sciences. Universities may use the test score in the matriculation examination to accept students
	a. During the first years of primary school, grading may be limited to verbal assessments rather than formal grades. The start of numerical grading is decided locally. If a comprehensive school pupil receives the grade 4 in one subject at the end of the spring term, they must show by a separate examination at the end of summer term that they have improved in the subject. If the pupil receives multiple failing grades, they may have to retake the year.

4.. The key words in Finnish education policy are quality, efficiency, equity and internationalisation. Education is a factor for competitiveness. EDU - The Education System of Finland

5. Encouraging assessment and evaluation
The student assessment and evaluation of education and learning outcomes are encouraging and supportive by nature. The aim is to produce information that supports both schools and students to develop. National testing, school ranking lists and inspection systems do not exist. EDU - The Education System of Finland

6. A flexible system based on empowerment
The education system is flexible and the administration based on the principal of Centralised steering  local implementation. Steering is conducted through legislation and norms, core curricula, government planning and information steering. Municipalities are responsible for the provision of education and the implementation. Schools and teachers enjoy large autonomy. 

7. A student-oriented, active conception of learning 
The organisation of schoolwork and education is based on a conception of learning that focuses on students' activity and interaction with the teacher, other students and the learning environment.

8. Primary-school teachers all have master's degrees, and the profession is one of the most revered in Finnish society. Finnish primary-school teachers have an unusual level of autonomy over the curriculum, a noted difference to the centralized approach in Ontario. They may choose their own textbooks, as long as they adhere to the core national curriculum. Board authorities do not inspect classrooms.

9. Polls show that the teaching profession in Finland is very high-status, and one of the country's most sought-after jobs. "More than 10 people apply to be primary-school teachers for every spot we have in university," noted Prof. Malaty, who attributes this to the profession's unique culture and status. 
Early education's top model: Finland - The Globe and Mail

10. All Finnish teachers are required to be master'sdegree graduates, no matter whether they teach primary or secondary students.

11. About 96 per cent of Finnish students have a very strong interest in continuing with secondary and higherlevel education after the compulsory primary school. The country has a strong network of universitieshttp://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/28/national/national_30113177.php

12. Another special aspect that encourages reading in the home environment is that when children watch international movies on TV, they have to learn to read quickly enough to follow subtitles in Finnish, while the soundtrack carries the original language. Other European countries don't use subtitles as much because movies are dubbed into their own languageshttp://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/28/national/national_30113177.php


At odds with progressive education is the concept of competition, and testing. 
Therefore, Finlands education cannot be classified as progressive.

Further, consider the separation of students by ability, as in either in a trade school, or in an academic-oriented upper secondary school.  This is much more along the lines of traditional education. 

So in conclusion, while the liberals among us would like to take on the cloak of Finlands success, I say that it is more than capricious to do so, and if one camp or the other is represented by Finland, it would be the conservative, traditional one, which values success over self-esteem.

Further, look at these paragons of progressive education, and see if this looks like Finland to you:

The Little Red Schoolhouse, Manhattan: Our experience nurtures social consciousness and ethical awarnessDrawing on the rich legacy of progressive tradition, we believe that education is organic, developmental and interactive process of growth encompassing all aspects of the childs nature. 

And the Prairie Creek Community School, Northfield, Minnesota: Assessment is authentic and holistic. Children are well known by their teachers and peers. There are no tests or letter grades. Instead, narrative reports are written about children that cover all aspects of their development: social, emotional, personal, physical and intellectual.

So, in summary, while there are aspects that might be considered as progressive, the nature of education in Finland seems to be more aligned with a testing regimen, and does not eschew competition.


----------



## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > But...But...But.... progressive education doesn't work
> ...



OK, ok, ok........because you have a hawt blonde chick in the Avatar, I'll lean toward the traditional male, rather than the progressive male, responce.

Teachers in the USA have no choice other than a "progressive" teaching method. Whether we like it or not, there are wide economic divisions in the USA between races. The economic divisions translate into cultural divisions, which value education differently. I could, but will not, offer the mountain of "peer-reviewed" empirical evidence to support this.

Since Finland is culturally homogeneous, and the culture places a high value on education, progressive education would be meaningless. Yes, certainly Finlands approach to education is traditional, but to say that because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...



Appreciate the kind words.

And, "Teachers in the USA have no choice other than a "progressive" teaching method..." you are correct as far as you go.

But please show where teachers have resisted these less than successful methods.  Some are 'useful idiots,' but most are "willful accessories to the crime." This, in fact, is one of the reasons that US teachers are not held in as high esteem as those in Finland.

Finnish teachers, it seems are not chained to methodology.

Now, as to "because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous,"  your language implies, actually means, 'an obvious absurdity.'

You have overextended. Unless you can show that traditional methods work less well than the progressive in comparable situations, then it is clearly not 'ludicrous.'

".... Among progressives the emphasis is on process, and there is disparagement
of mere facts. Suffice it to say that Hirsch has shown with devastating clarity that
reading, which could be called the most basic skill, cannot be done with understanding
unless the reader has the background knowledge expected by writers
Again the consensus in cognitive science and mainstream psychology is that these techniques, strategies and skills are content-bound and should be acquired as by-products of the study of significant and interesting texts...

Data are already available that show that students in nonprogressive
schools achieve at higher rates than those in progressive schools and that
students from deprived backgrounds do better in non-progressive schools. Comparative studies of student achievement have consistently shown that students from the U.S. do poorly, especially in science and mathematics, when compared with students from other industrialized nations. It is, to be sure, not surprising if students from schools which stress hard work, practice, memorization and mastery of content do better on standardized tests. Data from comparative studies have already provided ammunition for those who consider
progressive education a seriously flawed philosophy of education that should be exposed
and rejected..."

http://www.macalester.edu/~reedy/Samos07-ULTIssima-3[1].pdf

Further
Pedagogy

Look forward to your discussion.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

rdean said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...



To me, complimenting deanie-weenie is like fingernails on the backboard.

And, it is also rare.

But the boy deserves a pat on the head, and I will rep him as well:
that last paragraph is prescient!

We allow more TV watching by our broods than any other comparable nation.

Bravo, deanie!


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## manu1959 (Dec 7, 2009)

yep.....went to school in danmark.....no diferentiated learningthere...keep up or fail....bad teachers are not protected by the teachers union....perform or be fired....and last but not least if you can't pass the university entrance exam...it is off to vocational school for you....

i don't see the powers that be tollerating that on us soil...


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> But please show where teachers have resisted these less than successful methods.  Some are 'useful idiots,' but most are "willful accessories to the crime." This, in fact, is one of the reasons that US teachers are not held in as high esteem as those in Finland.



OK, I have resisted progressive methods.

And as a result I was held in less "esteem" by parents (and administrators) who are much more concerned about their kid passing on to the next grade level than they are of their kid learning anything. I'm not sure who in Finland holds teachers in High Esteem (and how the job's popularity is a function of this is more than a little debateable....but let's focus here). 

In the USA, PARENTS' "esteem" is really all that counts.



PoliticalChic said:


> Now, as to "because traditional methods work in Homogeneous Finland, then they would be effective in the USA is simply ludicrous,"  your language implies, actually means, 'an obvious absurdity.'
> 
> You have overextended. Unless you can show that traditional methods work less well than the progressive in comparable situations, then it is clearly not 'ludicrous.'



Well, since the thread was about Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable," then the comparison is obviously absurd. But the point is well taken: Has the USA tried to homogenise educational experiences? Are these experiences successful?

The answers are Yes, and Yes. Males and Females achieve much more in gender segregated schools, as do racial and ethnic groups. But along with their Academic Acheivement, Apartheid naturally fosters less understanding of diverse groups. Since the US has many such groups, and we have a quasi-democratic form of government, it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > But please show where teachers have resisted these less than successful methods.  Some are 'useful idiots,' but most are "willful accessories to the crime." This, in fact, is one of the reasons that US teachers are not held in as high esteem as those in Finland.
> ...



1."...it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion..." 
Total conjecture on your part. I don't know who you are quoting as to this end.

2. No one, as far as I can see, in this thread has suggested "Apartheid" in education.  Only you.  Generally, when one changes the subject, it is based on less than full faith in their argument.
I don't know you well enough, but will leave that judgement for yourself.

3. Back to the subject at hand. Since you have identified yourself as one who rejected progressive education, and have admitted certain difficulties with peers as a result, you are agreeing to the deleterious effects of progressive education.
Why, then, do you see so many of your colleages championing same?

4. "I'm not sure who in Finland holds teachers in High Esteem ...' I'm quoting some of the writings that I noted in an earlier post in this thread. And it claimed that there are 10 applicants for each position, not based on salary. I think this might indicate general esteem.

5. "...Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable"..."
Sure they are. We are comparing one aspect: the results of the educational system on educational results, as judged by international competition.

You have agreed that one is more progressive, the other more traditional. And you have edged away from progressive methods in your own experience. And that indicates...what?
That you are more dedicated?
That you  are wiser?
That you are willing to work harder than your peers?
Possibly that you are aware that progressive education is political, not pedagogical.

Almost religious. A faith, not a teaching methodology.
Or, why continue with a failing idea, other than it being based on faith.

Look, any parent who wishes to send their treasure to Summerhill, or the Little Red Schoolhouse, fine. Go ahead.

The problem is that public schools are compulsory, they are compulsorily progressive.


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> 1."...it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion..."
> Total conjecture on your part. I don't know who you are quoting as to this end.



Do you know the definition of Balkanise?



PoliticalChic said:


> 2. No one, as far as I can see, in this thread has suggested "Apartheid" in education.  Only you.  Generally, when one changes the subject, it is based on less than full faith in their argument.
> I don't know you well enough, but will leave that judgement for yourself.



The "traditional" education of Finland has Homogeneous classrooms. The only way to achieve this in the USA would be to involk an "Apartheid" in educational settings so that one class would, say, only contain white, ethnically Polish, males, whilst in the classroom next door, we would have Latina's of Honduran ancestory.



PoliticalChic said:


> 3. Back to the subject at hand. Since you have identified yourself as one who rejected progressive education, and have admitted certain difficulties with peers as a result, you are agreeing to the deleterious effects of progressive education.
> Why, then, do you see so many of your colleages championing same?



I rejected progressive education as a somewhat naive, "New" teacher, bent upon doing what I thought was the correct (traditional) teaching method. As with everything, and particlarly the young, the School of Hard Knocks prevailed upon me that what I thought was immaterial. What WAS material was what parents thought. It is no coincidence that the goals of progressive education conspire to synchronise themselves with the goals of parents.



PoliticalChic said:


> 4. "I'm not sure who in Finland holds teachers in High Esteem ...' I'm quoting some of the writings that I noted in an earlier post in this thread. And it claimed that there are 10 applicants for each position, not based on salary. I think this might indicate general esteem.



Well, I suppose I could reject this as "total conjecture on your part." But then, you could as easily dismiss my less extraploitive theory that in Finland the number of graduates with Masters Degrees in Elementary Education (supply) exceeds the demand.



PoliticalChic said:


> 5. "...Finland's traditional methods vs the USA's progressive methods, and these situations are nothing close to "comparable"..."
> Sure they are. We are comparing one aspect: the results of the educational system on educational results, as judged by international competition.



The RESULTS are comparable, not the situations.



PoliticalChic said:


> Look, any parent who wishes to send their treasure to Summerhill, or the Little Red Schoolhouse, fine. Go ahead.
> 
> The problem is that public schools are compulsory, they are compulsorily progressive.



There is no mention of education, much less compulsory education, in the US Constitution. Therefore, it is up to individual states to decide if education should be compulsory.

Of course, since even suggesting that a High School's Football Budget might be cut will get you politically lynched, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to move to a state without compulsory education.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > 1."...it would be socially counterproductive to segregate our schools to maximize learning, but to Balkanize the populaltion..."
> ...



1. "Do you know the definition of Balkanise?"
Of course, and since this has nothing to do with the discussion, it must be deflection on your part.
It's 'Balkanize' in this country.

2. "As with everything, and particlarly the young, the School of Hard Knocks prevailed upon me..."
Rather than the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life, let's return to the thread.
The OP suggested that the excellent results obtained by Finland was, I think, somehow related to progessive education.
I found in my research that Finland uses a more traditional methodology than implied .

3. I beleive that a return to traditional education in the United States would, contrary to your view, have a salutary effect.

4. The rest of your exposition is tortuous at best.


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> 3. I beleive that a return to traditional education in the United States would, contrary to your view, have a salutary effect.



"have a salutary effect?"

you mean "it would be beneficial." To whom?

I apologise, but you're approach is so astonishingly academic it ignores even the most basic problems associated with, "a return to traditional education in the United States" not the least being that there _IS NO United States education system_.

Now, continue to extrapolate the number of Finnish angels that might dance on the head of a non existant pin.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > 3. I beleive that a return to traditional education in the United States would, contrary to your view, have a salutary effect.
> ...



So, this means what...you have no answer?


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



You mean to ask, "you have no alternative to the status quo?"

Are there no Private Schools?

Are there no Charter Schools?

Are there no Online Schools?

Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now. 

Frankly, if you wish to talk about "Traditional;" education systems would be exactly what the framers of our federal government envisioned it to be: Non-existant. Again, a completely useless application to contemporary educational systems in the USA.


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## GHook93 (Dec 7, 2009)

(1) It doesn't foster learning
(2) Schools level of service and education differs so much from where someone lives. Go to the intercity and its chaos
(3) Problem students are not removed from the ones that really want to learn
(4) We don't de a good enough job segregating children by intelligence and behavior regardless of the child's race, religion, where the child lives or how much money the parent's make.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



People who straddle the fence get splinters.

"Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now. "

That's like saying anyone can have a RollsRoyce.

True, but untrue.  Too nuanced?

Private schools in my town start at about $25,000 to $30,000.

The number of Charter schools are severly curtailed by law.

I use an online school for my children, but it requires a financial commitment.

Democrats block real choice, as in vouchers.

Free, public education is traditional in America. 

Choice should extend to methodology.

Definition of traditional is not what you have declared it to be. It actually involves testing, ranking, competition, and repetition. I completely reputiate your statement as to being a "completely useless application."


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## xsited1 (Dec 7, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> thisisFINLAND: Facts: Education & research
> 
> 
> > All Finnish kids address their teachers by their first names, as the students at Helsinki's Strömberg School do, but many other aspects of education at this school can be considered progressive no matter where you're from.



Finland is the size of a large American city, has a stable family unit, and has zero racial diversity.  If you put a bunch of similar and like-minded people together, that's what you get.  Based on your link, I would propose that we remove everyone from the United States who isn't a member of the majority.


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Coulter? Chevy? "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." What could be the provenance of this babble?
> 
> Did I hurt your feelings with the "the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life," comment?
> 
> ...



No, I really have very few negative feelings associated with postings.

You should have read the rest of your article:



> *The Beginning of the Public Education System*
> *Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people*. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could _*create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty*_. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. _*By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. *_The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead



Compulsory Education has only been a "Tradition" since 1918, and even then it was limited to elementary school.

I also think its interesting to note that the "Traditional" goals of American Education are:

1. create good citizens, 
2. unite society and 
3. prevent crime and poverty

Odd. 


I wonder why they left out "Scoring on standardised tests as well as the Fins?"


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Coulter? Chevy? "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." What could be the provenance of this babble?
> ...



Good point about the wealthy.

I guess that eliminates your point that anyone can put their children in private schools.

And as for goals of American education, you are attempting to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat by changing the thrust of the thread.

The goal of education, American or Finn, is educated students.
Traditional education produces same, not progressive education.


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



No, anyone _can_ put their children in private schools. Many private schools offer a thing called a "scholorship." Or, anyone can earn 25,000/yr, and PAY.

I'm only using the source of information you so helpfully found to note that the "traditional goals" of education went far beyond learning to read while watching movies with Finnish subtitles.

"Uniting Society"....hmmmmm......it almost sounds_........"progressive!"_


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...




 "scholorship." ?  Scholarship is lacking.

Is your point that progressive education is efficacious?

If not your post is vacuous.


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Is your point that progressive education is efficacious?
> 
> If not your post is vacuous.



My point is that "PoliticalChic's Finnishing School" was a great pun, and that my sense of humor is wasted on you.


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## Zander (Dec 7, 2009)

It is a fishbowl. There are more students in the Los Angeles Unified School District than in the entire nation of Finland.  98% of the students in Finland are Finnish and speak the language. The LAUSD has 65% English speakers......
Connect the dots


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Is your point that progressive education is efficacious?
> ...



Good one!


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 7, 2009)

rdean said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



here Dean see if you feel this....in many of the grade schools around were i an at it is like this or worse......
remember California was in the top 5 in 1967-69....now number 48.....

VDARE.com: 06/02/05 - How Do You Say "The Cat Sat On The Mat" In Spanish?


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 7, 2009)

Zander said:


> It is a fishbowl. There are more students in the Los Angeles Unified School District than in the entire nation of Finland.  98% of the students in Finland are Finnish and speak the language. The LAUSD has 65% English speakers......
> Connect the dots



and this is what i am trying to tell Rdean.....35% dont speak the language,mostly in the grade schools,and it slows the other kids down....i have ALOT of teachers who live on my route,and the grade schoolers have told me they are teaching 2 sets of kids,one in English the other in Spanish,if they dont know Spanish,a translator is there to translate....and this is grade school.....immerse them in English and a little kid will learn the language faster than a grownup.....the Latino activist say no....unfair to the Spanish Speakers,it will take them longer to get through school.....but its ok to slow the English speakers down .....more Political correct bullshit.....


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2009)

Harry Dresden said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > It is a fishbowl. There are more students in the Los Angeles Unified School District than in the entire nation of Finland.  98% of the students in Finland are Finnish and speak the language. The LAUSD has 65% English speakers......
> ...



Well, I'll tell ya, just from my experience, it doesn't really slow down the other students. But I taught Math, and had my frequently useless, but well-meaning Spanish Translator Aid, and, if necessary, also the Special Education Aid to assist. You just learn to try to teach as many kids as you can, but realistically, a few will "slip through the cracks." Teachers that knock themselves out believing they will teach EVERY STUDENT, EVERY DAY, soon learn they should have gotten their MRS Degree, and married some Taiwenese Electrical Engineering Student when they had the chance.


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## Harry Dresden (Dec 7, 2009)

Samson said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Zander said:
> ...



and what grade did you teach if i may ask?.......


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## Samson (Dec 8, 2009)

Harry Dresden said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Dresden said:
> ...




Above, I'm refering to teaching 8th grade in a middle school that had 12 caucasion students among 600 black and hispanic students. 76% of the school qualified as "Title I" (economically disadvantaged enough to recieve free and reduced lunch/breakfast).


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## bodecea (Dec 8, 2009)

Charles Stucker said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > The Finnish government keeps the pressure on students to a point that they complain of a lack of fun at school. At the same time, there are no nationwide exams or even final tests. There is continuous assessment -- a mixture of monthly tests and teacher evaluations
> ...




Unfortunately, and I have seen it again and again, schools cannot retain without the parent's permission.   Schools cannot retain more than once in a K-12 time period.  

There needs to be a secondary, perhaps vocational oriented place for them to go...with or without parental permission.


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## Samson (Dec 8, 2009)

bodecea said:


> There needs to be a secondary, perhaps vocational oriented place for them to go...with or without parental permission.


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## Chris (Dec 9, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Zona said:
> 
> 
> > I thought the united states was the best country in the world.  Between medical, educational and basic standards of living, we suck.  Especially child mortality rates.
> ...



"once deaths due to homicide and auto accidents are removed from the statistics, the US has the greatest life expectancy in the world"

And if I had wings I could fly.


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## cindycinderella (Dec 9, 2009)

High quality education.


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