# Artificial Intelligence



## Unkotare

Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.


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## Unkotare

As a bonus question, how if at all does this relate to transhumanism?


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## pacer

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait?


Human intelligence requires a brain.  Artificial intelligence requires a computer.


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## Unkotare

pacer said:


> Unkotare said:
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> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait?
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> Human intelligence requires a brain.  Artificial intelligence requires a computer.
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What about "intelligence" as a concept in and of itself?


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## pacer

Unkotare said:


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> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait?
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> Human intelligence requires a brain.  Artificial intelligence requires a computer.
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> What about "intelligence" as a concept in and of itself?
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Humans do have intelligence; some more so than others.  lol  What exactly are you asking?  Whether humans can be genetically engineered to gather/transmit information similar to Robocop?  If so, highly unlikely.


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## Unkotare

pacer said:


> What exactly are you asking?





It's right there in the OP.


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## pacer

You have your answer.  Human intelligence requires a brain.  Artificial intelligence requires a computer.  Artificial intelligence as a human trait does not compute.


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## Unkotare

Ok, well, thanks for your participation. Maybe it's time for you to find a thread that's more your speed.


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## pacer

Your question made no sense (to me).  Maybe an artificial intelligence on this board can explain it.


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## Unkotare

Now if kiddie hour is over, would any adults care to comment on the topic?


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## pacer




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## Unkotare

Or maybe kiddie hour isn't over yet............


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## onedomino

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.



Elements of artificial intelligence already exist. An important aspect of human intelligence is pattern recognition. For example, understanding language involves the recognition of audio patterns. There are many systems that are dependent on pattern recognition. There are computer systems that emulate or surpass aspects of human intelligence. For example, language recognition, chess programs, cruise missile guidance systems. Humans have designed chess playing machines that can defeat the best human chess players. Does this mean that regarding pattern recognition chess playing machines are more intelligent than humans? Perhaps it is no more significant than any other machine that is better at its designed task than are humans.

Computational power is an element of intelligence. How much data, and at what speed, can a machine or a human process? Based on its number of neurons, cell connections, and neuron firing speed, a human brain is capable of about 10 trillion calculations per second. This says nothing about useful calculations. But even the simplest acts require huge amounts of data processing, and humans do many things simultaneously, e.g., driving a car while listening to the radio. The current top super computer can process 33 trillion calculations per second, but it is not an example of artificial intelligence. So intelligence involves something more than pattern recognition and data processing.

So what is it about intelligence that humans possess and machines do not? Is it the ability to experience, to abstract? Yes, and more. Will machines someday have these abilities? Yes, and more. The Singularity approaches.

What does this mean about our place in the world? We better never lose control of our ability to pull the plug.


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## Pennywise

Unkotare said:


> Now if kiddie hour is over, would any adults care to comment on the topic?



As to the topic, you exhibit no signs of intelligence, artificial or otherwise.

But your quota of sanctimony is off the charts.

Good on you, Punky Brewster.


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## Unkotare

Pennywise said:


> Unkotare said:
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> But your quota of sanctimony is off the charts.
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> Good on you, Punky Brewster.
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Thanks for that nothing, idiot. Now go show your ass somewhere else.


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## Unkotare

onedomino said:


> Unkotare said:
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> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.
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> Elements of artificial intelligence already exist. An important aspect of human intelligence is pattern recognition. For example, understanding language involves the recognition of audio patterns. There are many systems that are dependent on pattern recognition. There are computer systems that emulate or surpass aspects of human intelligence. For example, language recognition, chess programs, cruise missile guidance systems.
Click to expand...




Computers still haven't mastered language to a human extent.


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## Pennywise

Unkotare said:


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> Now if kiddie hour is over, would any adults care to comment on the topic?
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> As to the topic, you exhibit no signs of intelligence, artificial or otherwise.
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> But your quota of sanctimony is off the charts.
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> Good on you, Punky Brewster.
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> Thanks for that nothing, idiot. Now go show your ass somewhere else.
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My pleasure. See, if you weren't such a pretentious arrogant prick, you might find people willing to play along with your posits of pontification. However, being you are the A # 1 prick of USMB most in need of tooth loss, kiss my lilly white ass, choad guzzler.


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## Unkotare

Pennywise said:


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> Thanks for that nothing, idiot. Now go show your ass somewhere else.
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> My pleasure.
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Ok, bye loser.


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## Sallow

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.



At this point in time, I don't think it is.

You can write complex programs that "learn", but that learning is still based a set of conditions written in by the programmers.

In terms of "Artificial Intelligence" or more importantly "Self Awareness", I don't think the technology is there yet.

At best you could get something that's "sub insect".


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## Pennywise

Unkotare said:


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I'm sticking around, but thanks.

I often wonder if intelligent life exists, how it passed right by your genetic tree. I suspect your being was already too full of bullshit and sanctimony to be able to absorb anything else.


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## Unkotare

Pennywise said:


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At least you know how to come when called. Maybe someday you'll even be ready to participate.


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## midcan5

The word artificial makes the prospect sound impossible. Oxymoron? Is artificial sugar sugar? What is artificial about intelligence or what even is intelligence? There is an excellent fiction work on the topic by Richard Powers, 'Galatea 2.2.'  I recently assisted a mentally challenged person with some electronics setup and troubleshooting, it made me think how odd thought can be. He was so limited in understanding I found it completely baffling, I wondered whether anything I said made sense. But I have had the same experience with men who could do the NYT crossword puzzle but given a circuit or computer problem got so lost and frustrated I had to jump in. So I guess I know intelligence when I see it but then it has boundaries too and limits too. Didn't Watson win? LOL Anyway here is my take, human intelligence is not duplicatable, why, because humans exist in a body, in time, in a place, and in an evolutionary creation. God as creator is OK too if you like. Watch 'Brain Games,' I think on the 'discovery channel' as food for thought too. But David may disagree I like his stuff but I forgot his point in piece below. 

David Deutsch ? On Artificial Intelligence

"Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language." Ludwig Wittgenstein


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## Unkotare

Panorama - Language and Profession*-*Goethe-Institut*


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## midcan5

Years ago there were a lot of expert system software solutions that would help basic troubleshooting tasks. ATT had large complex manuals that were constantly being updated. When the personal computer became the primary business tool I did an expert system on many different issues. But there was always a point at which if the solution or set of tasks didn't solve your problem you had to punt.  lol  But technical is one thing, how about personal or interpersonal communications? Hal arguing with Hal. How about interpersonal intelligence, 'listen Machine, I explained my personal dilemma what would you do?' LOL It may be that AI is limited as emotion is biological. Can one imagine a machine writing poetry.


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## Unkotare

midcan5 said:


> Can one imagine a machine writing poetry.





That is not difficult to imagine at all, but does not resolve this question.


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## Politico

Unkotare said:


> *Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? *Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.



No.


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## Unkotare

Politico said:


> Unkotare said:
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Why?


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## Book of Jeremiah

Unkotare said:


> Now if kiddie hour is over, would any adults care to comment on the topic?



I need to bump this thread while I get my notes.  This is one of my side projects.  I have to find it in my desk.  This could take awhile.  Hold on!  You'll be glad you did!


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## Book of Jeremiah

pacer said:


> Unkotare said:
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> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait?
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> Human intelligence requires a brain.  Artificial intelligence requires a computer.
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That isn't what Unkotare is referring to.  This is the first time I've seen you on this board for some time, Pacer.  I either missed your threads or you've been gone.  Not sure which.   It's an interesting discussion.  I've got some material to post.  You'll find it interesting. Stick around.  - J.


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## Book of Jeremiah

Alright.  Here are my notes on the subject of Cellular alteration through experimentation.   Right now there are scientists working on genetic engineering which includes half - human / half- animal beings.  Tom Horn wrote a book called, "Pandemonium's Engine" which explains what is going on in great detail.  

There are other books that have been written pertaining to the subject.  Forbidden Gates by Tom and Nita Horn - Something Transhuman this way comes also Robot Alchemy - Tex Mars.  John McTernan wrote a book called Embodied Intelligence and he is the author of As it was done to Israel, so it will be done to America.. ( I have the book - can't remember the exact title )   McTernan is a bible scholar and views this subject from a different pov than Chuck Missler who is teaches on the Nephilim and gives seminars. Missler says he is a Christian but my spirit doesn't bear witness to it at all.  Nevertheless, he's been interesting to listen to on his research into Nephilim.. good to know how the other side will spin it in the future - so getting back to the genetic engineering......

There is another type of genetic engineering that went on in the beginning.  In the days of Noah Nephilim did visit the daughters of men in order to engineer their own race.. who are the Nephilim?  Fallen angels..    This is confirmed in Jude 6 referring to angels having left their first estate - Nephilim - this is what Jude is referring to...

They revolted and came to humans on earth to create their own kingdom and they did manage to do it which was when God destroyed the earth by water - this is often left out - in teachings about Noah..

Another book entitled, Morning of the Magicians goes into describing Hitlers aim which was transhumanism... that was his ultimate aim - to create a super race - a demi god or god man.  Hitler was deeply immersed in the occult and experimentation on humans for such research. 

     We'll be hearing the name Apollo more and more also in the coming days too.   According to scripture Apollo is the angel of the bottomless pit.   There is an agenda here to "end the church age".   Also you should look up the L.U.C.I.F.E.R. project.   

An example given by one speaker on the subect was the genetic connection such as Hollywood has put out through movies - The omen, Rosemary's baby, a strange species alteration..

Anyhow with this type of experimentation we could be seeing beings that are half animal and half human, humans with out a soul, humans that are not "human".  As Sun Tzu once said,  Know thy enemy.    People need to be aware of what is happening out there because it is going to effect them personally in the future.   Tampering with G-ds creation is a very, very dangerous thing to do.  VERY.  

Even if they were created and looked identical to us in every form.  They would be transhuman.  Why?  Because only a human being that is a trichotomy is human.   Transhuman are not human by the very fact of their being created by human scientists.  It makes them a man made creation.  That defines them as a dichotomy.  Not a trichotomy.      See what is going on here?  

- Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah

If it is not a science that would effect mankind then what should we expect from a transhuman being that is created void of a conscience?  Void of any spirituality whatsover because of how it was formed?  What are such beings capable of?   What  else could mankind possibly expect from these beings but pure evil?  

Gee, I thought we were trying to solve the population problem because there were too many humans on the earth.  Yet this type of science is cutting edge - top priority?    To create more beings on the earth?   Isn't that the height of hypocrisy from the elitists who fund these projects?


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## Unkotare

Jeremiah said:


> Gee, I thought we were trying to solve the population problem because there were too many humans on the earth.




There is no such problem.


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## Dajjal

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.



I do not believe that a computer will ever be conscious, or self aware. Because all a computer does is add one's and zero's. But the huge number of switching logic gates makes a computer capable of complex calculations. It seems clever, but the real intelligence is in the person who designed and programmed the machine. Myself I think that is how it will always be, but that is because I believe we have souls and a computer cannot. If artificial intelligence does ever come about we will probably be better off destroying it before it decides to destroy us.


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## Vikrant

Is artificial intelligence (simulation of human brain) possible? At this juncture, this is more of a philosophical question than anything else. 'Is there any law of nature which is preventing us from simulating human brain?' is the first question we have to ask ourselves. There is nothing there that even remotely suggests that brain does not obey the law of nature. So it is absolutely possible to simulate human brain in theory. But building a machine that functions like a human brain is not a piece of cake. Learning and logical processing of information, believe me or not, are perhaps the most trivial functions of the brain. The real complexity of brain lies in its function of emotions. What kind of logic in the brain forces us to love our family? We have seen people who give ultimate sacrifice for their loved ones. But we have also seen or heard of normal people who do horrible things to their loved ones. You could simply say that one person is wired in a specific way and that cannot be changed for that person. This is true in some cases but there are cases where people feel remorse and change their course of action. How would you go about understanding the logic that is wired in the brain of that person? These are not some trivial aspects of brain to understand. Brain is a remarkable product of billions of years of direct and indirect evolution. Let me jolt you to the reality and implore you to forget about the brain for few seconds and think about microprocessor  a much more trivial topic. How much credit can we take in building a microprocessor? Not much is my answer. For the most part, we simply slice and bake the silicon and hope for the best. Of course, we have gotten better at it over the years just like we have gotten better at cultivating wheat but can we take credit for creating wheat? The answer is no. May be in a distant future, we will stumble upon an equivalent of silicon which will be our answer to building an artificial brain. That is the best we can hope towards building a human brain at the moment.


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## Abishai100

What if there are many kinds of intelligence?

We think of a human being who diligently and patiently studies Wall Street stock market charts as intelligent and perceptive.

However, we think of a shrewd and quick-thinking Wall Street stock market 'rogue trader' also as intelligent but in a very different way.

How we understand the differences between such views affects the computer programmer's perspective on how to coordinate levels and sectors of perception-based decision-making in a programmed computer 'brain.'

Such ideas I think reveal the social inspiration that art can provide, but that could be a topic for another discussion --- i.e., public demand for machine-thought themed Hollywood (USA) movies such as "Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines" (2003).


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## Vikrant

Let us come back to emotion which is without a doubt the most complicated aspect of a brain. This aspect perhaps is the biggest roadblock to building an artificial brain. Do we really need to wire an artificial brain with emotions? Because you could argue that emotion is not necessarily an asset but a defect in otherwise perfectly functioning artificial brain. Emotions sometimes make us do things that do not logically make sense. 

Will an artificial brain without emotions have a full potential of human brain? I do not think so.  Emotions fuel courage that we may otherwise sometimes lack. It is this courage fueled by emotions that sometimes keeps us going even in the most hopeless of the situations. It certainly increases our resilience which improves our survivability.

So I do not think we can write off emotions that easily.


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## Thobbs

I believe that, to have a true artificial intelligence, you must have a program or entity in a computer that can do intelligent things, or even simulate human emotion.  A good question to ask a computer that you believe is smart enough to be an artificial intelligence is "Can you prove that you are self aware?". Although it may rebuke if WE can prove if we are.


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## CrusaderFrank

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.



Just look at FranCoWtF and Rdean


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## Vikrant

Thobbs said:


> I believe that, to have a true artificial intelligence, you must have a program or entity in a computer that can do intelligent things, or even simulate human emotion.  A good question to ask a computer that you believe is smart enough to be an artificial intelligence is "Can you prove that you are self aware?". Although it may rebuke if WE can prove if we are.



Well, emotion is a weakness. It hampers what we call logical thinking or rather logical processing in this case. In order for you to be truly intelligent, you have to be devoid of emotions. So you could always say that humans are not truly intelligent.


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## Unkotare

Vikrant said:


> Well, emotion is a weakness. ..




You really think so? I don't. Our baser responses may stem from emotion, but so do our most noble qualities.


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## Bleipriester

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.


No. Artificial Intelligence is just a set of scripts which are applied to specific, pre-defined situations. If an AI comes across a situation, it doesn´t know, it crashes, asks the program what to do or ignores it.


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## Unkotare

Bleipriester said:


> Unkotare said:
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> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.
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Click to expand...



What you describe is not artificial intelligence.


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## Bleipriester

Unkotare said:


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Yes, it is. Ask a AI programmer, if you don´t believe me.


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## Unkotare

Bleipriester said:


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Read the OP.


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## Bleipriester

Unkotare said:


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The topic is dropped. What are you talking about is thinking like a human being. That implies consciousness, a mind.


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## percysunshine

Unkotare said:


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Could artificial intelligence come up with (explicitly cognise) the concept of 'artificial intelligence'?

Sounds like a never ending philosophical mobius strip.

Natural intelligence has been the only option, so far, in our history. 

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## Unkotare

Bleipriester said:


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Did you read the OP?


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## Bleipriester

Yeah!


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## Unkotare

"But substantial interest remains in the long-range goal of building generally intelligent, autonomous agents, even if the goal of fully human-like intelligence is elusive and is seldom pursued explicitly and as such."



Logic and Artificial Intelligence Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy


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## Bleipriester

Unkotare said:


> "But substantial interest remains in the long-range goal of building generally intelligent, autonomous agents, even if the goal of fully human-like intelligence is elusive and is seldom pursued explicitly and as such."
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So you agree to what I said before.


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## Unkotare

No. Read the whole page and learn something.


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## Vikrant

Unkotare said:


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When two entities with artificial intelligence (AI) are locked in a struggle for survival, if your artificial intelligence design takes into consideration emotions then that can complicate things. You do not want your AI to stop in the middle and offer a lending hand when the objective is to destroy the opponent AI. This will be detrimental to the objective. However, if your AI is doing strictly what it has been designed to do then it is not really an intelligent entity. This is why it becomes a philosophical question because as soon as you introduce human like emotions into the design, you are compromising on pure intelligence. At the same time, without the emotions and calculated unpredictability (not talking about design flaw), you do not really have intelligence that can be compared to a human brain; therefore it cannot be considered intelligent entity at all.


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## Unkotare

That raises and important question. Is higher intelligence possible without emotion, and vice versa?


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## Vikrant

Emotions are one of the many aspects of the brain that makes it extremely complex. It is the emotions which will distinguish artificial intelligence from a human intelligence. A true intelligence is not possible without its ability to undertake unpredictable actions which we call emotions. When a not so good student pushes himself to do well academically, he is basically charting in a territory which is unpredictable and is driven by an emotion called pride. 

Human brain is a product of random events. You cannot design a human brain because design by its nature is limited to its stated specifications and therefore cannot truly produce an intelligent entity like human brain.


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## Unkotare

Vikrant said:


> Emotions are one of the many aspects of the brain that makes it extremely complex. It is the emotions which will distinguish artificial intelligence from a human intelligence. A true intelligence is not possible without its ability to undertake unpredictable actions which we call emotions. When a not so good student pushes himself to do well academically, he is basically charting in a territory which is unpredictable and is driven by emotion called pride.
> 
> Human brain is a product of random events. You cannot design a human brain because design by its nature is limited to its stated specifications and therefore cannot truly produce an intelligent entity like human brain.




You sure? Someone already did.


----------



## Vikrant

Unkotare said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Emotions are one of the many aspects of the brain that makes it extremely complex. It is the emotions which will distinguish artificial intelligence from a human intelligence. A true intelligence is not possible without its ability to undertake unpredictable actions which we call emotions. When a not so good student pushes himself to do well academically, he is basically charting in a territory which is unpredictable and is driven by emotion called pride.
> 
> Human brain is a product of random events. You cannot design a human brain because design by its nature is limited to its stated specifications and therefore cannot truly produce an intelligent entity like human brain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You sure? Someone already did.
Click to expand...


There is nothing for sure in this world.


----------



## Bleipriester

Unkotare said:


> No. Read the whole page and learn something.


The complexity of the proceedings does not change that AI is based on scripts.


----------



## Unkotare

Too difficult for you to read? Understandable. Maybe you should find something simpler to talk about.


----------



## Bleipriester

Unkotare said:


> Too difficult for you to read? Understandable. Maybe you should find something simpler to talk about.


You are right and who doesn´t agree is an idiot...


----------



## dblack

Artificial intelligence already exists. Or are we actually talking about artificial consciousness? That's more subtle, but I think it's inevitable.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Artificial intelligence, meh.

 Finding any of the stuff  produced organically is quite difficult enough.


----------



## Dajjal

My experience is that we are incarnate spiritual beings, and therefore intelligence is a discarnate entity using a body, therefore intelligence in not produced by the brain. I also have qualifications in computer engineering and that tells me that all a computer does is add zeros and ones. The appearance of intelligence comes from the programming not from the computer. I am sure that will always be the case, no matter how powerful computers become. If I am wrong and electronic brains can be created that can think for themselves,s then we should immediately smash them because an inhuman consciousness would have little use for us.


----------



## percysunshine

.

Asimov, a long time ago...

I Robot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.



Dunno if it's technologically possible, but 'intelligence mimicry' has already been done fooling humans interacting with it. Whether that's actual clinical intelligence or not I don't know. Projected fowards though I'd say very possible or at least indistinguishable from organic intelligence in every way that matters.

Very worrisome indeed.


----------



## midcan5

Interesting piece, 'The Myth Of AI'  A Conversation with Jaron Lanier. 

The Myth Of AI Edge.org

And this from a piece on books I posted earlier today.  What Book Changed Your Mind - The Chronicle Review - The Chronicle of Higher Education


----------



## Treeshepherd

Unkotare said:


> As a bonus question, how if at all does this relate to transhumanism?



Add the word "smart" to any conventional product and you can guess what the hottest consumer items will be over the course of the next decade. Smart toasters, smart clothing, smart garage doors, etc.. How about a cash-for-clunkers smart toilet connected wirelessly to your mobile device that chemically analyses your waste? I wouldn't categorize these features as 'intelligent'. They'll just be ubiquitous tools that quantify every aspect of human life. Like, your clothes and accessories will constantly inform you about your body temp, heart rate, blood chemistry, dietary needs. Personally, that sounds incredibly annoying. But you could look at these features as yet another tool that empowers individuals to manage their own health, rather than being helplessly dependent on the doctor in the white coat.

Transhumanism; how does that relate to AI? The passion of the transhumanist is achieve salvation/immortality through technology. Upload your own memories, experience, and 'intelligence' to an artificial storage device, and house that in a disposable body. Maybe one's personality could be transferred to disposable brains which are mostly organic. How does that relate to AI? 
I don't know, except that the people who live in that possible future are going to be extremely boring and wretched, and completely unaware of their own wretchedness.


----------



## dblack

midcan5 said:


> Interesting piece, 'The Myth Of AI'  A Conversation with Jaron Lanier.
> 
> The Myth Of AI Edge.org
> 
> And this from a piece on books I posted earlier today.  What Book Changed Your Mind - The Chronicle Review - The Chronicle of Higher Education



I read that one, right on the heels of Dennett's "_Consciousness Explained_", and I found Dennett's view far more compelling. Ultimately, Chalmer's argument is that it _just feels_ like there ought to be something substantial to consciousness that our current science doesn't yet comprehend (google 'qualia').

I think its more likely that all the pieces are there, that the fundamental building blocks of consciousness are within our current understanding of the physical world. There's a strong analogy to be drawn between our struggles to understand consciousness, and the long struggle of science to come to terms with the chemical processes that animate living creatures.

Philosopher's long ago proposed that living entities are composed of the same basic stuff (atoms) as their non-living counterparts. But even as we came to accept this on a superficial level, we continued to cling to the belief that life simply couldn't spring from non-living matter, that there must be some special "lifeforce" (anima) that imbued the physical body with life. Eventually, we conceded that it wasn't so, that biological life was a by-product of organizing ordinary chemical structures in special ways.

I think we're struggling with the same kind of realization now. Chalmers is still pining away for _qualia, _but on examination, it's just not there. I think, in the end, we'll find that consciousness isn't magic - it's just a by-product of, ultimately, mundane representational systems, organized in special ways.


----------



## theDoctorisIn

Can a computer analyze data semantically, or just syntacticly?

That's the root problem of artificial intelligence, to me.


----------



## dblack

theDoctorisIn said:


> Can a computer analyze data semantically, or just syntacticly?
> 
> That's the root problem of artificial intelligence, to me.



Can a brain?


----------



## theDoctorisIn

dblack said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can a computer analyze data semantically, or just syntacticly?
> 
> That's the root problem of artificial intelligence, to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can a brain?
Click to expand...


Yes.

I was thinking about how to answer your question, and the fact that I was thinking about it was proof enough for me.


----------



## dblack

theDoctorisIn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can a computer analyze data semantically, or just syntacticly?
> 
> That's the root problem of artificial intelligence, to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can a brain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I was thinking about how to answer your question, and the fact that I was thinking about it was proof enough for me.
Click to expand...


What about other brains, beyond yours? Do you have any proof that they're not just syntactically responding in a way that "seems" semantic? Are you familiar with the concept of 'p-zombies'?


----------



## theDoctorisIn

dblack said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can a computer analyze data semantically, or just syntacticly?
> 
> That's the root problem of artificial intelligence, to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can a brain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I was thinking about how to answer your question, and the fact that I was thinking about it was proof enough for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What about other brains, beyond yours? Do you have any proof that they're not just syntactically responding in a way that "seems" semantic? Are you familiar with the concept of 'p-zombies'?
Click to expand...


Since I'm unable to experience firsthand any brain but my own, no I have no "proof".

Nor do I have any reason to think that my brain is fundamentally different from any other brains.


----------



## Vikrant

theDoctorisIn said:


> Can a computer analyze data semantically, or just syntacticly?
> 
> That's the root problem of artificial intelligence, to me.



This is a very good question. It leads us to a realization that the way human brain processes data differs fundamentally from that of a computer. The things a human brain finds difficult are piece of cake for a computer and vice versa. If you have any doubt in your mind about this, it can be laid to rest by looking at successes of languages that follow context based grammars over the languages  that follow generative grammar.


----------



## Vikrant

Each brain is a product of disorder (or random events) that have taken place for billions of years. So naturally, it has an entropy which theoretically can be measured and perhaps reproduced. This is where you could theoretically say that an artificial brain can be constructed. But practically speaking, how easy is it going to be to understand that complex entropy? The lack of appreciation for this complexity is what results in trivialization of human brain to a point where people start to think that brain is just like computers and since we can build computers, we can just as easily build brains too.


----------



## SmedlyButler

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.



Your question is probably the most important question human beings will be dealing with for at least the next 50 yrs. True AI has the potential to change the paradigm we have been in since the arrival of homo sapiens on the scene. Right now I'm reading "The Singularity is Near" by Ray Kurzwell. There are some who dismiss him as a "nut" or "crackpot" since his latest projections in the field. In my opinion a quick overview of his Bio makes him not so easy to ignore though;
_
"Kurzweil was the principal inventor of the first CCD flatbed scanner,[2]the first omni-font optical character recognition,[2] the first print-to-speech reading machine for the blind,[3] the first commercial text-to-speech synthesizer,[4] the Kurzweil K250 music synthesizer capable of simulating the sound of the grand piano and other orchestral instruments, and the first commercially marketed large-vocabulary speech recognition.[5]

Kurzweil received the 1999 National Medal of Technology and Innovation, America's highest honor in technology, from President Clinton in a White House ceremony. He was the recipient of the $500,000 Lemelson-MIT Prize for 2001,[6] the world's largest for innovation. And in 2002 he was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame, established by the U.S. Patent Office. He has received twenty honorary doctorates, and honors from three U.S. presidents. Kurzweil has been described as a "restless genius"[7] by The Wall Street Journaland "the ultimate thinking machine"[8] by Forbes. PBS included Kurzweil as one of 16 "revolutionaries who made America"[9] along with other inventors of the past two centuries. Inc. magazine ranked him #8 among the "most fascinating" entrepreneurs in the United States and called him "Edison's rightful heir".[10]"
_
His predictions about the marriage of machine intelligence and the Human mind may instill hope in many of us, in many of us it instills a deep level of fear and loathing. This short video encapsulates his ideas.


This longer one digs deeper and reveals more of the man himself; 
If your curiosity on this topic is insatiable like mine his book "The Singularity is Near" is available on most of the download sites (Paid and un-Paid versions)


----------



## Abishai100

*Cyclonus (A.I. Avatar): Brain Sentiment*


The colorful animated film "The Transformers: The Movie" (1986) is a movie adaptation of the popular children's animated series about A.I. robots engaged in special missions for governance on Earth.

This franchise is now a big-budget Hollywood (USA) film series begun by Michael Bay.

In "The Transformers: The Movie" (1986), a special terrorist warrior-robot named Cyclonus is formed from the decaying body of a dying terrorist giant insect-robot named Bombshell.

Cyclonus symbolizes an imaginative perception of malice and how it can be "programmed" in computing networks designed to create profit (i.e., eTrade) and envisioned in super-intelligent robots that not only make their own decisions but also exhibit traits of deception, arrogance, and fury.






Cyclonus G1 - Transformers Wiki


----------



## Treeshepherd

SmedlyButler said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your question is probably the most important question human beings will be dealing with for at least the next 50 yrs. True AI has the potential to change the paradigm we have been in since the arrival of homo sapiens on the scene. Right now I'm reading "The Singularity is Near" by Ray Kurzwell. There are some who dismiss him as a "nut" or "crackpot" since his latest projections in the field. In my opinion a quick overview of his Bio makes him not so easy to ignore though;
> _
> "Kurzweil was the principal inventor of the first CCD flatbed scanner,[2]the first omni-font optical character recognition,[2] the first print-to-speech reading machine for the blind,[3] the first commercial text-to-speech synthesizer,[4] the Kurzweil K250 music synthesizer capable of simulating the sound of the grand piano and other orchestral instruments, and the first commercially marketed large-vocabulary speech recognition.[5]
> 
> Kurzweil received the 1999 National Medal of Technology and Innovation, America's highest honor in technology, from President Clinton in a White House ceremony. He was the recipient of the $500,000 Lemelson-MIT Prize for 2001,[6] the world's largest for innovation. And in 2002 he was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame, established by the U.S. Patent Office. He has received twenty honorary doctorates, and honors from three U.S. presidents. Kurzweil has been described as a "restless genius"[7] by The Wall Street Journaland "the ultimate thinking machine"[8] by Forbes. PBS included Kurzweil as one of 16 "revolutionaries who made America"[9] along with other inventors of the past two centuries. Inc. magazine ranked him #8 among the "most fascinating" entrepreneurs in the United States and called him "Edison's rightful heir".[10]"
> _
> His predictions about the marriage of machine intelligence and the Human mind may instill hope in many of us, in many of us it instills a deep level of fear and loathing. This short video encapsulates his ideas.
> 
> 
> This longer one digs deeper and reveals more of the man himself;
> If your curiosity on this topic is insatiable like mine his book "The Singularity is Near" is available on most of the download sites (Paid and un-Paid versions)
Click to expand...


Perhaps mistakenly, but I've always thought "The Singularity" was that point in the future when all data stored in a human brain may be copied and uploaded to a new brain (either synthetic or bio-engineered or some combo thereof). That is the entire crux of the matter to the Transhumanist. That's the Grail he seeks. Other technologies are integral to his achievement of that goal, but his goal is to achieve immortality. He would become a techno-*Lich*.

The Ecology of a Lich (AD&D) : "_A mage becomes a lich by means of necromancy, using a magical receptacle called a Phylactery to store the lich's soul. In some sources the method of becoming a lich is referred to as the Ritual of Becoming or Ceremony of Endless Night...  Unlike most other forms of undead creatures, the Lich retains all of the memories, personality, and abilities that it possessed in life — but it has a virtual eternity to hone its skills and inevitably becomes very powerful. Like other powerful forms of undead (such as a vampire or mummy), a Lich has unnatural powers owing to its state...
a lich's most valuable resources are its vast intellect, its supreme mastery of sorcery and limitless time to research, plot and scheme."_


----------



## Quentin111

Vikrant said:


> Emotions are one of the many aspects of the brain that makes it extremely complex. It is the emotions which will distinguish artificial intelligence from a human intelligence. A true intelligence is not possible without its ability to undertake unpredictable actions which we call emotions. When a not so good student pushes himself to do well academically, he is basically charting in a territory which is unpredictable and is driven by an emotion called pride.
> 
> Human brain is a product of random events. You cannot design a human brain because design by its nature is limited to its stated specifications and therefore cannot truly produce an intelligent entity like human brain.


Excuse me, but cats and dogs have primitive emotions, but they don't have high intelligence. True intelligence belong to humans. I think that most imortant problem of simulaton of human brain is its complexity. Human brain consist of about 87 billions neyrons, no one modern supercomputer hasn't operating speed enough to emulate it.


----------



## dblack

Quentin111 said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Emotions are one of the many aspects of the brain that makes it extremely complex. It is the emotions which will distinguish artificial intelligence from a human intelligence. A true intelligence is not possible without its ability to undertake unpredictable actions which we call emotions. When a not so good student pushes himself to do well academically, he is basically charting in a territory which is unpredictable and is driven by an emotion called pride.
> 
> Human brain is a product of random events. You cannot design a human brain because design by its nature is limited to its stated specifications and therefore cannot truly produce an intelligent entity like human brain.
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but cats and dogs have primitive emotions, but they don't have high intelligence. True intelligence belong to humans. I think that most imortant problem of simulaton of human brain is its complexity. Human brain consist of about 87 billions neyrons, no one supercomputer hasn't operating speed enough to emulate it.
Click to expand...


And I think (guessing of course, but ...) that that will prove to be the easy part. The design and programming required to support real intelligence or consciousness is something we haven't even begun to work out.


----------



## Quentin111

theDoctorisIn said:


> Can a computer analyze data semantically, or just syntacticly?
> 
> That's the root problem of artificial intelligence, to me.


This problem may belong to problems that now are solving by Computational Linguistics and NLP (Natural Language Processing). For example in Russia there is a company that hardly working at machine translating - ABBYY ( omprehensive language support for corporate clients and cutting-edge language technologies and services ABBYY Language Services Scientific investigations are discussed in "Dialog conference": Dialogue - A Major Conference On Computational Linguistics In Russia


----------



## Mindful

Couldn't find a slot for this. Wondered if it would fit in here. Thought provoking nevertheless.

A "put up job"?

*'Multiverse Theory' Holds That the Universe is a Virtual Reality Matrix*
*
 Multiverse Theory Holds That the Universe is a Virtual Reality Matrix
*


----------



## Vikrant

Dog is an intelligent animal. I hear people say that they only have instinct. That is not correct. I have seen my own dogs solve problems that they have never faced before.


----------



## Unkotare

The relationship between dogs and humans is unique in the natural world.


----------



## Barbasiewiczfan

If Artificial Intelligence is defined as self consciousness, what would be the test to determine if self consciousness has been truly achieved ?
A statement by the AI that it is aware of itself is not enough.
If there was a test, could the AI learn of the test, react accordingly and defeat the accuracy of the test ?
AI could not survive an EMP, the biological brain can.


----------



## Quentin111

What future is awaited for mankind when AI would be invented? Let discuss it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Quentin111 said:


> What future is awaited for mankind when AI would be invented? Let discuss it.



We'll all think the EXACT same thing at the EXACT same time. In other words, we'll become USMB Progressives


----------



## jan

Perhaps we humans are just the worker bees for a universal intelligence.  We experience our entire lives (which in the grand scheme of things is a very small amount of time), but when we die our accumulated intelligence (soul) returns to the universal mind which grows in strength.

In short, perhaps WE are the computers?


----------



## RKMBrown

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.


Yes.  True AI is indeed possible.  Yes, even in the sense that we understand intelligence as a human trait.  

It means intelligence can come from artificial means.

Our place in the world is greatly exaggerated.


----------



## RKMBrown

Quentin111 said:


> What future is awaited for mankind when AI would be invented? Let discuss it.


AI already exists.  The future is bright.


----------



## Unkotare

RKMBrown said:


> Our place in the world is greatly exaggerated.




Why do you say that?


----------



## Unkotare

jan said:


> Perhaps we humans are just the worker bees for a universal intelligence.  We experience our entire lives (which in the grand scheme of things is a very small amount of time), but when we die our accumulated intelligence (soul) returns to the universal mind which grows in strength.
> 
> In short, perhaps WE are the computers?




Or maybe we're the neurons.


----------



## RKMBrown

Unkotare said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our place in the world is greatly exaggerated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?
Click to expand...


Because you asked.


----------



## Quentin111

Unkotare said:


> Or maybe we're the neurons.


We are very complex neurocomputers which consist of 87 billion neurons inside our skulls.


----------



## Mindful

All those neurons!

A Ghost in the Machine


----------



## Quentin111

I believe that after the creation of AI in human life there will be a new stage. You could even say, revolution.
1) People will not need to work hard to earn a living.  All things will be made by intelligent machines. People will be paid welfare that they will buy produced by machines things: food, clothes, cars, TVs and smartphones. Machines will invent new useful things. Perhaps that will solve the problem of the unlimited extension of life - people will become immortal.
2) Smart machines will produce all scientific work and works of art. Will be abolished academic and scientific awards (e.g. Nobel prize) and the prize in the arts (e.g., Oscar).
3) Most likely, the machine will create its own civilization. In the future machines will contain people as people now keep animals in zoos. But I hope that people will retain their autonomy and self-governance, will remain elected positions like presidents and judges.


----------



## Abishai100

*Matchstick Modeling*


When we go to SeaWorld (San Diego, California), a famous ocean-life theme park and aquarium, we might notice that our society is fascinated by dioramas of life and the desire to preserve it at great costs.  Then we turn on the TV and hear news reports of manmade-pollution related acid rain which is negatively affecting Earth's ecosystems, and we wonder if 'life dioramas' such as SeaWorld as symbols of hypocrisy.

In the 1980s, when compact audio cassettes were being mass-marketed, consumers obtained the first 'audio media storage-playback toy.'  People were free to make their own mix-tapes and shuffle songs and store them in whatever chronology they chose, and this was a breakthrough and it catalyzed the sale of Walkmans.

It's obvious that human beings like making models --- miniature environments (i.e., SeaWorld), data-storage toys (i.e., audio cassettes), etc.

Is Artificial Intelligence simply a model of macro-ecology?





Brainiac


----------



## neither

Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.


----------



## Unkotare

neither said:


> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.





And?


----------



## neither

Unkotare said:


> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
Click to expand...


Computers run on electricity.  The ghost in the machine?  http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-ghost-in-the-machine-unraveling-the-mystery-of-consciousness


----------



## Unkotare

neither said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Computers run on electricity.
Click to expand...




And?


----------



## neither

Unkotare said:


> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Computers run on electricity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
Click to expand...


So do our brains.  Right?  Of course.


----------



## Unkotare

neither said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Computers run on electricity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So do our brains.  Right?  Of course.
Click to expand...


And?


----------



## neither

Unkotare said:


> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Computers run on electricity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So do our brains.  Right?  Of course.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And?
Click to expand...


But!


----------



## Abishai100

*Reflexive Ribosomes*

A computer processes commands (inputs) and regurgitates operations (outputs).

A camera makes a light motion recording and 'translates' it into a plane view.

When a human being witnesses a rainbow, he/she wonders if the rainbow is somehow 'corrupted' by acid rain.

Would an A.I. robot translate (or interpret) a process (i.e.,rainbow formation) into (or in terms of) system dynamics (i.e., eco-pollution)?





T-1000


----------



## Unkotare

neither said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Computers run on electricity
> s
Click to expand...



Our brains also run on oxygen. Does that make us windmills?


----------



## G.T.

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.


Its proven "possible" we just dont have the details ironed out yet.

Its implications are crazy. Too much to type, more so a convo over a beer or 4.


----------



## G.T.

Unk, you want to have a dumbed down less tedious convo about it?

Meaning, no walls of text ala emily/politicalchic....

U can start it..


----------



## Unkotare

G.T. said:


> Unk, you want to have a dumbed down less tedious convo about it?
> 
> Meaning, no walls of text ala emily/politicalchic....
> 
> U can start it..




Seems to me there are two parts to the issue. Is it or will it ever be possible, and what would it mean to our understanding of ourselves if it were.


----------



## neither

Unkotare said:


> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neither said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human intelligence could not exist without electrical power.  Our brains use electrical power to transmit signals to our body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> Click to expand...
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Leach computers require oxygen, also. US scientists build brainy leech computer ZDNet


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## Unkotare

neither said:


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And?


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## Abishai100

*Physique: Dollhouse Dreams*

When early man (i.e., australopithecines) began to walk upright and evolve away from monkeys, they were eyeing the horizon of the African plains and creating targeting and navigation maps.

As these early humans noticed the layout of the land (vegetation, animalia, terrain, etc.), they began to analyze geometric contours and similarities between natural objects.  They began to notice the shape of their own bodies, and the functional elegance of the human physique.

When Leonardo Da Vinci created his famous drawing of the proportionate human body, artists began to think more formally about geometry in art.

How long have human beings made dolls (or statues) to re-present or characterize the shape and elegance of the human body?

Our aspirations to make synthetic brains or robotic humans (A.I.) seems to be connected to a natural curiosity about the shape of the human body system.

It seems therefore that a robot is like a doll, and conceptions of A.I. reach both into the future and back into our past.


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## Unkotare

Jim ryan said:


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> A pink tutu would go good with that bun on your head.
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I've asked you before, have you ever actually studied philosophy formally? It doesn't seem like you have. In fact, it seems like you only turned up to repeat a few poorly thought-out talking points and then get yourself booted so you can sit in the basement telling yourself how you've been wronged yet again.


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## Igrok_

Unkotare said:


> Is true 'artificial intelligence' possible? Intelligence in the sense that we understand it as a human trait? If so, what does this mean about our view of ourselves and our place in the world? It raises questions of a spiritual and theological nature as well, but I suppose that's for another thread.


In whole sense - not, it is not possible. Man can't create a man by himself, with his own conscious. It can do only God. So, man can only make a discrete machine which could make a billion simple operations a second. People don't act like that, they have an intuition, templates in brain and many other things. Moreover, human's brain is discovered very bad.


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## Igrok_

Unkotare said:


> As a bonus question, how if at all does this relate to transhumanism?


what is transhumanism?


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## Abishai100

*Bio-Synthetics: Grip
*

One of the challenges of 're-creating' the human mind is to imagine a 'synthetic' mind with infinite potential.

In the American film "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" [1991], we encounter a strange robot called the T-1000 which is comprised entirely of a malleable mercury-like material.  The T-1000 is sent from the future to destroy leaders of the human resistance against the eventual robot-led empire.  One of these human leaders is involved in an investigation into a scientific research of a remnant of a robotic hand.

Such images from pop culture suggest a natural curiosity about the scope and reach of robotics and synthetics.  Indeed, robotics comprises the new frontier, taking its place with the somewhat established realm of genetics in modern science.

My favourite robotics avatar from pop culture art is the Insecticon, a robotic warrior that transforms into a predatory insect.  Insecticons were evil avatars from the A.I. fantasy-adventure franchise _Transformers_ (Hasbro) which has already been adapted into multiple big-budget Hollywood (USA) films.

The Insecticons are robots that signify an interest in bio-synthetics --- of both body and mind.

Robots must have degrees of freedom in movement which they can coordinate between brain (central processing) and body parts (limbs and nerves).

It's all about flexibility.  You can't imagine a synthetic mind with infinite potential without recreating an entire biological system with synthetic materials.


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## Holos

To approprately answer the question we have to consider a contrasting concept to that of Artificial Intelligence. Let it be Natural Intelligence for the simplicity of the argument.

Given Natural Intelligence, endowed to and inherited by any being to capably act without any necessity to learn, we then have Artificial Intelligence, which is basically learned and improving communication. 

Is it then possible to have true A.I.? Yes, but its recognition depends on the capacity of one with Natural Intelligence to learn and improve their language not only by their own but with another. This transition therefore would not be the same as endowement or inheritance but more closely relates to cooperation.


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## Abishai100

*Storytelling Sophistication
*

In the A.I. (Artificial Intelligence) robotics fantasy-adventure franchise _Transformers_ (Hasbro), the heroic Autobot robots vie with the sinister Decepticon robots for dominion.

The Decepticons are beset by internal power struggles when their first-knight, Starscream, rebels and develops his own team of robot warriors called *Combaticon*s (mini-robot warriors that transform into army vehicles) which merge into a giant super-robot named *Bruticus*.

The Decepticons have to retaliate and develop a team of robot warriors called *Stunticons* (mini-robot warriors that transform into armed road-race vehicles) which merge into a giant super-robot named *Menasor*.

Bruticus and Menasor compete and we get a portrait of 'machine monstrosity.'




*Bruticus*

*Menasor*


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## midcan5

"How do we figure out goals for ourselves? How are goals defined? They tend to be defined for a given human by their own personal history, their cultural environment, the history of our civilization. Goals are something that are uniquely human. It's something that almost doesn't make any sense. We ask, what's the goal of our machine? We might have given it a goal when we built the machine."
AI & The Future Of Civilization | Edge.org

"Lack of intelligence is the greatest poverty." Arabic proverb


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## FA_Q2

Unkotare said:


> That raises and important question. Is higher intelligence possible without emotion, and vice versa?


Yes, I think it clearly is.

Intelligence is not defined by emotion.  Simply because we are emotional beings does not mean that intelligence is ties to emotion is some manner.  Assuming so is nothing more than trying to demand that intelligence must be similar to what we, as humans, experience.


Unkotare said:


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> Seems to me there are two parts to the issue. Is it or will it ever be possible, and what would it mean to our understanding of ourselves if it were.
Click to expand...

1. Yes, it is possible in my mind.  
2. Obviously it would have massive implication is what we hold true in a religious manner and the concept of free will in general. 

Some assume that we are somehow special because we are self aware, that no other being has this and therefore it cannot be created in a machine.  That our free will separates us from the rest of the universe.  I think that is a rather arrogant view in general.  Even the existence of free will is rather questionable to me.  I can give you a drug that will transform you into another individual entirely - you make different decisions and act in an entirely different manner.  My grandmother used to talk about how my grandfather 'was a different man' when he was on his meds to control his anger issues and, quite frankly, she was right.  My father was an entirely different individual when he was an addict using cocaine.  These chemicals introduced into the brain created completely different outputs than what you would have expected from the person without them,  It was a night and day difference in both cases.  We are no different than a computer in that aspect - perimeters in our coding (in this case taking the physical form of chemicals rather than magnetic charges on a platter) alter the output with a given input.

The complexity of the system is one of the barriers that we have to overcome if we are seeking AI.  We are not only a massive collection of neurons but also of the literally billions of inputs that we are processing every second.  Those neurons are also not akin to transistors - they are far more complicated and can have more connections.  A neuron may connect up to 10,000 other neurons where a transistor has but 2 states.  Essentially, a transistor may send a single that consists of a 1 or 0 where a neuron can send one that comes up with 10,000 different outputs.  Put 2 of them together and you have exponential growth that is rather extreme though biological constraints narrows that gap significantly.

We already have computers that learn and rewrite their own internal code to adapt.  Learning is another hurdle to overcome in creating AI.  As others have pointed out, computers cannot be intelligent if all they are doing is taking information and processing it as a programmer told them to do.  We are passed that now though and able to give machines some algorithms to base future programming on (not unlike our instincts that we are born with) and let the computer itself learn what it needs to.

Researchers create a computer program that learns the way humans do
AI computer learns to speak like a four-year-old child
NELL: The Computer that Learns - Carnegie Mellon University | CMU

We are progressing technologically VERY quickly and I have no doubt that true AI will be found sometime in our future.  Those that believe it is not possible are no different than those that believed flight or space travel was impossible.


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## Abishai100

*Art: Archaeology*

When we look at various entertainment programs about A.I. robots (e.g., _Transformers_, _Robotech_, the _Terminator_ franchise, etc.), we find some valuable insights about 'social perspectives' on 'intelligence ghoulishness.'

How should we evaluate these 'market messages'?



Doesn't art symbolize intellectual curiosity?



*Robotech*


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## Abishai100

*The Grandmaster: Dictation(!)*

Let's look at the fictional robotic warrior Rewind, a miniature heroic robot (and member of the Autobots team) who transforms into an espionage-geared audio cassette and challenges the evil Decepticon robots (such as Frenzy), from the A.I. (Artificial Intelligence) fantasy-adventure franchise _Transformers_ (Hasbro).

Rewind is robotic and is geared to transform into an espionage gadget, suggesting that human civilization associates auditory signals/recordings with some kind perceptual intelligence.

We often say, "Computers are like human brains," but it seems these days, we're saying more often the opposite: "Human brains, obsessed with Wall Street, have become like computer brains!"

Maybe these cartoon avatars from A.I. 'morality fables' suggest a psycho-sociological interest in 'behaviour cynicism.'

So the question is, "Are A.I. scientists/philosophers, by definition, idealistic/optimistic?"


Rewind (Transformers Wiki)


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## Abishai100

*Triumph of the Will*


I like depictions of robots (in stories/folklore/movies) in circumstances/conditions testing/verifying the mind's understanding of leadership 

It's very much linked to Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics.  Hey, if a robot has to decide if the first two laws violate its justification for self-defense, how will it gauge its imagination of rest/relaxation?

Labor and management are important 'features' of the sociological mind, and it's something any good A.I. 'engineer/developer/scientist' will consider.

Check out the pictures below of two sets of robot-warrior leaders from the popular A.I. fantasy-adventure franchise _Transformers_ (Hasbro): the first two are 'heroic' Autobot robot-army leaders Optimus Prime and Rodimus Prime, and the second two (in purple) are the two 'villainous' Decepticon robot-army leaders Galvatron and Cyclonus.

By the way, I prefer Transformers to GoBots and Robotech.


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