# Teacher's view on public education system's problems



## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):

-Parents lack of interest/involvement with students. I had roughly 150 students and on teacher conference night where parents come in and meet with their teachers I had a total of THREE parents come in. THREE. (I teach a requirement for graduation btw).

-When I call home to parents about students misbehaving or not doing their work most (not all) of the parents don't care, they say it's my job and problem to deal with. So when I address it with the students their response is that their parents don't care, so they don't care.

-Points for trying. This drives me CRAZY. We're encouraged to give students points for simply trying! I have students asking me why they have C's or D's-and they point out that they do all of their work. I tell them that if they give me "C work", they're going to get a "C". MANY students complain at this and expect an "A" just for doing all of their work. The (obvious) problem is that this doesn't exist in the "real world".

-Extra time. Some students who're struggling get granted extra time (under law), where I have to give them as much time as they need to complete work/tests/etc. This may be PC, but once again the problem is that this will NEVER happen for them in the "real world"

-One standard for everybody. Different classes have different personalities and different students learn at different paces/in different ways. But virtually everything has to be taught at a specific pace and in a specific way--the problem is that you can't expect 25 kids to learn at the same pace AND in the same way (let alone 150).

-The teacher's union. Luckily I live in a right to work state. I haven't had any real interaction with the actual union so I wont comment on that, BUT there are a few teachers in my department who (literally) carry around their contracts form the teacher's union and if they're asked to do something that's not on there-they'll refuse to do it. Such as putting books away at the end of the school year, or showing up 15 mins to work early for a duty (bus ramp/something similar). And you'd think that they were asked to run a marathon. The complaining blows me away. And then they wonder why teachers will less "experience" (in terms of years) get promoted to APs or Principals.

-Lack of control over situations. As a teacher I was told to NEVER touch a student. Which to me makes 100% sense. I'll give students a high five-but that's IT. The obvious problem comes about during fights, what do we do? I was instructed that even if one student is on top of the other kid and have them pinned against the ground and beating the kid to a bloody pulp that I am NOT to pull the kid off of the other. I have to call down to the main office and wait for our officer (we have a LEO on campus) or an AP/someone else to resolve the situation. Basically we're not allowed to grab a student by the shoulders and pull them off of another student who's getting the crap kicked out of them....because of fear of a lawsuit. Luckily I have complete control over my classroom, but this can (and has) happened to other teachers before.

-Teachers just clocking in. I think this bothers me the most. I'm usually at my school an extra hour or so (depending on the day) after we can leave. And I'm usually there about a half hour before we have to be. Some teachers book and just bolt. Teaching isn't a career where you should be doing this in my opinion.

-Students refusing to do work, and who fail without caring. I've had students with a 5.6% and 11.4% in class and BRAG about it. They think it's cool to get bad grades. And yet many out there are ready to subsidize them when they're out of highschool. They'll tell you that somehow "we" (society, teachers, school, etc). have let them down....because they wont admit that they brought it upon themselves. There's no accountability. I've seen quite a few kids drop-out and there's always 2 reasons (I've spoken with more seasoned teachers and they agree): 1) They don't show up to school. 2) They don't care about their grades.

I know I've done nothing but complain in this thread, but it's just very disheartening to see all of these obvious problems in my very limited experience and to see that the "solution" is by throwing more money at schools (it's not), or coddling the students. The coddling of kids is going to be a huge downfall for them. It's a crutch.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

How would you fix the problem? What would you do?  What do you suggest should be done?  Or are you just venting? Certainly, your frustration is understandable.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 16, 2014)

It's working as planned. 

Our educational system was sabotaged and is now designed to "Graduate" generations of permanently uneducated underachievers who must rely on the government for their sustenance, vote Democrat and then go out and have children of their own.

It's a perfect system, it's just not geared to make kids succeed


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## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> How would you fix the problem? What would you do?  What do you suggest should be done?  Or are you just venting? Certainly, your frustration is understandable.



Well I don't think that there's a quick fix, it's going to take generation(s) to fix. But in an ideal world the following changes I think could be done realistically either immediately or within the end of the decade:

-End tenure of teachers. Not every teacher on tenure sucks. In fact most teachers at my schools are very good at what they do. There are a handful of ones who shouldn't be teachers though

-Pay teachers based on performance. Where I live we kind of have this. If we meet certain criteria (student test grades improvements, in-class evaluations of us, etc.) we get bonuses at the end of the semester.

-Don't just pass students through just because they completed their work. Many kids do a half-butted job on their work and hand it in and get A's. They then expect that to happen in EVERY class they take, and in the "real world" after school. The easy A's are given for 2 main reasons: A)school/county encourages it, OR B)the teacher is too lazy to grade the work for content, and just grades on completion (this is more rare, but I have heard a few teachers actually say this).

-Give teachers more control of their classrooms. Recently it's becoming more and more rigid on what teachers can and cannot teach in their classrooms and HOW they do so. Basically we're given books that tell us all of the lessons that we have to teach. The exact lessons/work. The problem with this obviously is that a class may not be on that level yet, or be above that level and the work isn't right for that classroom. The book cannot make that decision based on the class, but the teacher can.

-The parent situation obviously can't be addressed by the school system/teachers. I can't make parents care about their student's educational success/future. This has to be done through society as a whole.


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## bodecea (Jun 16, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Esmeralda said:
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The problem with the bolded part is, how do you get teachers to teach the low end students then....?

IMO, we need to bring back tracking, vocational school, and school choice FOR the school.   Not make the schools want to retain the dirtballs because of the money they get.


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## Moonglow (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeah, stop the proliferation of high pay for supers also.All they really do is push for higher real estate taxes and more schools..


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):
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> -Parents lack of interest/involvement with students. I had roughly 150 students and on teacher conference night where parents come in and meet with their teachers I had a total of THREE parents come in. THREE. (I teach a requirement for graduation btw).
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So, where did you take your education courses at?


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## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

bodecea said:


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You make pay bonuses based on test grade IMPROVEMENT. So in other words it's not your test grades per say, but the improvement in student's grade from one year to another.

You also get evaluated in the classroom by the school district, and your principal.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 16, 2014)

Disir said:


> JT8691 said:
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> > I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):
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The Elements of Style / Edition 4 by William Strunk | Barnes & Noble


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## Moonglow (Jun 16, 2014)

> Teacher's view on public education system's problems



Can anyone tell me how this is wrong??? Teacher???


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## Mr. H. (Jun 16, 2014)

Just wait until this teacher is eligible for tenure, and then gets shit upon. 
RIF - reduction in force. The administration's way of telling you you're not welcome because
a) You're not related to anyone of importance
b) You don't move in the right "circles".

Fucking incompetent dysfunctional hierarchical dictatorial bastards.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

bodecea said:


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I agree with tracking and vocational schools. Probably 50% of the students in American public schools are not academically inclined and have no desire to attend academic programs in colleges and universities.  Of course they are unhappy, don't perform well, and see no value in what they are studying.

BTW, are you sure public school teachers get tenure?  I've never heard of that.  University professors get tenure, not public school teachers.  And the professors have to become full professors before they get tenure; they cannot be just instructors.  It takes a few years to earn tenure as a univerisity professor.


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## bodecea (Jun 16, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


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There also needs to be some kind of alternative for those who do not value an education....ditch digging, working the fields...something hard and strenuous until they realize the value of their education.   Get them away from the kids who want to learn.


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 16, 2014)

In our school district, parents had to be actively involved and evaluated if their students were in extra curricular activities including sports.  The low end students worked hard to be included in activities.

In our school district, if a child would not stop an assault the teacher was authorized to pull him or her off by the hair, and if the child resisted, the teacher was authorized used the minimal force necessary to ensure safety in the school place.

The one family that sued was counter sued by the district.

Very little discipline problems in that district and an excellent GPA overall.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

You never did say what it is you teach.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

Also. What are you doing about continuing education?


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

^^^If you are referring to the OP, he is one person,  one teacher. Why are you asking him such questions?  He has no more power than the rest of us to make changes to the school system or do anything about continuing education (which means education after high school).


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

What's wrong with the questions, Esmeralda?  The only reasons not to answer the questions is if he isn't a teacher. If he's a teacher then he understands precisely what I mean about continuing education.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

Disir said:


> What's wrong with the questions, Esmeralda?  The only reasons not to answer the questions is if he isn't a teacher. If he's a teacher then he understands precisely what I mean about continuing education.



What you mean by continuing education:? Continuing education by definition means education after high school.  Do you  have your own private definition?  And what do you expect him to do anyway?  He is only one person, one teacher: he has no particular power to do anything.  As well, what subject he teaches is irrelevant to the discussion.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

It's not a private definition.  This is what educators have to do.  It's called continuing education and  they have to pay for it.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

Disir said:


> It's not a private definition.  This is what educators have to do.  It's called continuing education and it's on they have to pay for it.



Explain what you think continuing education means.  Do you actually mean 'lifelong learning'?

Educators have to do what?  Explain.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


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I'm not talking about lifelong learning.  

He is an educator, amiright?  He knows precisely what it means.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

Disir said:


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LMAO  You are hilarious.  Apparently you think you know what it means. Why can't you say?  Too funny.  

It means what I said it means; there is no other special definition for educators.



> con·tin·u·ing ed·u·ca·tion
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> noun: continuing education
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> education provided for adults after they have left the formal education system, consisting typically of short or part-time courses.


  You don't know what the fuck your are talking about.  If you did, you would have explaind the term long ago.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


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It's not inherently important that you grasp this.  There is no reason for some guy on the internet to lie about being an educator, amiright?  He knows what I am talking about.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

Disir said:


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You think he is lying about being a teacher?  I don't.  I know that some people leave professions in the 'real world' and go into teaching; I have met such people.  I also know enough about schools to know his rendition of what it is like is very much the reality; and, he provides very specific and detailed examples. He's not lying.

Your attempt at being secretive and mysterious is ludicrous.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

Then he will have no problem answering the questions.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 16, 2014)

^^^You are nuts.

I'm done with you, psycho.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

I don't care.


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## longknife (Jun 16, 2014)

Yet another interesting thread disrupted by the usual childish blah, blahs of 2 posters.

Shame they can't be deleted.


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## Disir (Jun 16, 2014)

Are you afraid of questions, long knife?


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):
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> February is a awkward time to begin the year. I wouldn't take your experience for the past 4 months as indicative of what may happen if you began in August
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Um, how old are these kids? I agree that 11-12 graders probably need very little "coddling" but there is a reason most have not been released into the general population: They are kids. By definition, they require coddling. If you cannot get used to this I suggest you teach adults.


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## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> > Teacher's view on public education system's problems
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> Can anyone tell me how this is wrong??? Teacher???



Obviously it's grammatically incorrect. I tried to make it concise so it could fit in the title of the thread, and people would know what it meant. I'm new to USMB, so I wasn't sure as to how long/many characters I would have. Nice try in trying to detract from my argument though!


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> ^^^If you are referring to the OP, he is one person,  one teacher. Why are you asking him such questions?  He has no more power than the rest of us to make changes to the school system or do anything about continuing education (which means education after high school).



Obviously, if you ask someone what they are doing about continuing education, you are not asking them what they are doing about the community college; You are asking about THEIR OWN continuing education. I'm not sure why this is any more relevant?

Are you suggesting that many of the complaints listed may be a result of poor teacher preparation, and that additional training may be required for the OP? I don't think so, necessarily. Almost anyone is shocked during the first few months of teaching. Most begining teachers are given mentors so they can cope.


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## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

Samson said:


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I teach seniors and juniors. (EIII and EIVH to answer people who were asking me the question earlier in the thread). And most of my seniors ARE adults by the end of high school. They can sign legally binding contracts.

I do "coddle" when necessary, but my main point about coddling is you have 17/18 year olds wanting to hand work in late by 8 weeks and expect to get credit for it. While I agree there's an academic and real world (I use quotes for "real world" because I don't like the term, but I have nothing else to use for it)....the problem is that the "coddling" ceases to exist in higher education. Once you're in college/university the coddling stops. I think we can both agree on that.

A teacher's job is to teach the curriculum first and foremost. I also view my job as preparing them for life beyond high school (especially my seniors). Teaching a 18 "kid" that it's ok to hand in work weeks late doesn't really do them any favors in the long run. It teaches them that's it ok to miss deadlines, it's ok not to own up to your responsibilities, people will give you the benefit of the doubt, people will look past your irresponsible decisions. I think everybody can agree that this will NOT happen after high school (and that includes the rest of their academic career).

I do cut some slack when I need to, I'm not entirely strict. I'm ok with "coddling", for lack of a better term, when necessary. My point was that I think we're coddling too much. I think we've gone past the point that makes sense.


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## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

Samson said:


> Esmeralda said:
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Obviously I'm a new teacher and I made had many challenges, and made quite a few mistakes. I'm not trying to pretend that I'm a perfect teacher, or even a great teacher.

I have my license, I've taken many educational classes (although I will admit that my major is not in education, or even the subject that I teach). My principal/APs have told me numerous times that I'm doing a great job and am exceeding their expectations. All of my evaluations have gone very well, and my student's test scores are above-average (not amazing, but above-average). I will absolutely admit that I was shocked with how things were run. That was the point of my post. I'm obviously not egotistical to think that I'm Paul Revere or anything, I just thought that I'd post my observations on what I think is wrong with the system today. In all fairness there ARE things that the system (at least at my school) are getting right. 

Since I came in halfway through the school year I wasn't given a mentor (I will be getting one for this upcoming August). I adjusted by asking my department head, assistant department head and co-workers TONS of questions.


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## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

Disir said:


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To be honest with you I don't care if you think that I'm a real educator, or if I'm making it all up. Whatever you choose to think is your own business. This isn't an interrogation. If you think I'm full of crap-fine I really don't care.

What makes you question me though? What portion of my post generates even the slightest bit of doubt to you?


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I teach seniors and juniors. (EIII and EIVH to answer people who were asking me the question earlier in the thread). And most of my seniors ARE adults by the end of high school. They can sign legally binding contracts.
> 
> I do "coddle" when necessary, but my main point about coddling is you have 17/18 year olds wanting to hand work in late by 8 weeks and expect to get credit for it. While I agree there's an academic and real world (I use quotes for "real world" because I don't like the term, but I have nothing else to use for it)....the problem is that the "coddling" ceases to exist in higher education. Once you're in college/university the coddling stops. I think we can both agree on that.
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Well, it seems like you have the right idea. I would expect that when you begin next year it will be much easier to establish your expectations for students.

I would advise concentrating on students and your classroom, and being very diligent about discipline. Frankly, if there are issues, then the parents have heard about them for the past 17-18 years, and if they're not resolved, they never will be. Be a hard-ass disciplinarian: DOCUMENT everything, and hope that your major problems will be sent to an alternative campus before Christmas. Try to avoid other teachers, administrators, and parents. A strict speak, see, and hear-no-evil policy is the best. Make adult friends OUTSIDE the school.


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## JT8691 (Jun 16, 2014)

Samson said:


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Thanks for taking the time for advice! I sincerely appreciate it!


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## longknife (Jun 16, 2014)

So sad this has become yet another Nyah, Nyah, Nyah thread.


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

JT8691 said:


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One other nugget: You are not, and never will be, the students' peer.

This is especially difficult to remember around 17-18 year olds who may seem to be adults. I advise dressing very differently. Teachers that dress casually confuse students. Wear a coat and tie and real fucking leather shoes: Its your uniform, and it says, "I'm the Boss." You may have an ID badge. Wear this around your neck on a very heavy gage chain (the heavier, the better) that you find at Home Depot. Being known as "The Man With The Chain" lends a certain air of freightening mystery to your persona that can command respect in about every situation.


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## SAYIT (Jun 16, 2014)

longknife said:


> So sad this has become yet another Nyah, Nyah, Nyah thread.



The prob wasn't Esmeralda, who was confronting Disir but rather Disir who was being an a-hole. The thread left one important factor unresolved: how to replace the parental guidance missing in so many kids lives?


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

SAYIT said:


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I always advised joining the Marines.

Frankly, teachers who substitute themselves for parents are asking for trouble: Do your job, document discipline problems, work the discipline ladder. Some teachers forget they are government employees, and therefore bureaucrats FIRST. This is a huge fucking mistake, because the education system is nothing if not a bureaucracy and without the appropriate paperwork, including all i's dotted and t's crossed, they have no power.

Conversely, if you master the bureaucracy, you have untold, awesome power, and will be the envy of your peers. Students, accustomed to walking all over loosy-goosey teachers, will be quelled into silence. You will even frighten administrators, unaccustomed to such diligence from mere teachers, who now have no choice but to act in their behalf!


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## Unkotare (Jun 16, 2014)

The problem with public education is the "public" part.


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

longknife said:


> So sad this has become yet another Nyah, Nyah, Nyah thread.



Women.

But it is a good example of why the administration may like the OP: Male Teachers are much easier to manage. 

As a bonus, male students have much more respect for males teachers. This is particularly true for many hispanic males, who seem to absolutely HATE being told what to do by females. Just an observation.


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> The problem with public education is the "public" part.



The "pubic" part doesn't help either.


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## Unkotare (Jun 16, 2014)

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It can be a hairy situation.


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## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

Unkotare said:


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And that's not even the worst situation.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

JT8691 said:


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Good. I still do. 

The entire post is doubtful. But, the timing sure is right up there with tenure. Nay?

Much of what you have up there is covered in the basic education courses. It's text book. Yet, it's still mystifying.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

SAYIT said:


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Asking questions defines me as an asshole? Boy, are you in for a ride.


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## JT8691 (Jun 17, 2014)

Disir said:


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Ok let me ask you higher level questions then. How and why does my "entire post" seem doubtful to you?

PS: As far as tenure goes...If you actually read my post you'd clearly see that I made it crystal clear that I just started this past February.


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## SAYIT (Jun 17, 2014)

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You asked no questions about the message but rather the messenger. In this case whether the OP is what he says he is has little bearing on the validity of the message (but I suspect you knew that). You can read thousands of similar stories right here on the Internet.


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## FranklySpeaking (Jun 17, 2014)

Much interesting data in the original post.  Love hearing the teacher's side of the story, as in past I've brought up ed issues with teachers who strictly avoided discussion.  Lived for 17 years in Germany, where (like other European countries) systems are quite a bit different, and arguably more successful, than ours.  In Texas, several years back was shown a report illustrating that administrative positions had gone, in a short two decades, from 1 per 10 teachers to a ratio of 1 per 3.  That study was linked to the problem of ascending costs to taxpayers accompanied by decreased results.  One key detractor is that our largest teacher unions do not abide by their stated goals of improving education, but they're doing fine in improving teacher pay, benefits, and contributing to a failing overall system.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 17, 2014)

Disir said:


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No, being an asshole with no merit, no original ideas and nothing constructive to say makes you an asshole

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

SAYIT said:


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I want to see a photo ID, Birth Certificate, and Teaching License, posted!



Extra points for Social Security number and a major credit card.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


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That pretty much covers the USMB membership.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

FranklySpeaking said:


> Much interesting data in the original post.  Love hearing the teacher's side of the story, as in past I've brought up ed issues with teachers who strictly avoided discussion.  Lived for 17 years in Germany, where (like other European countries) systems are quite a bit different, and arguably more successful, than ours.  In Texas, several years back was shown a report illustrating that administrative positions had gone, in a short two decades, from 1 per 10 teachers to a ratio of 1 per 3.  That study was linked to the problem of ascending costs to taxpayers accompanied by decreased results.  One key detractor is that our largest teacher unions do not abide by their stated goals of improving education, but they're doing fine in improving teacher pay, benefits, and contributing to a failing overall system.



Couple of things:

Comparing anything in Europe with the USA, and declaring them "Apples-to-Apples" needs to be carefully considered. In terms of Educational systems, comparing Europe to the USA is more like "Apples-to-Pinecones." True, they both grow on trees, but there the similarity ends.

Second, I'd be interested in where this report regarding the administrative increase is, but let's consider that it is accurate: Why frame the increase in terms of ratios of administrator to teacher? This gives the impression that everything administration does is focused on managing teachers; Why not make the ratio in terms of administrator: illegal immigrant child? 
Why not make the ratio administrator: increased federal regulation (NCLB)? 
Why not a ratio of administrator: student diagnosed psychlogical issues (ADHD) that require the school to provide special assistance?

If you want to link costs to anything, it is not the cost of managing teachers that has increased the gross cost of education, it is the cost of administering Title I free and reduced lunches for illegal immigrants, standardized testing programs and other regulations emplaced by NCLB and Core Curriculum, and providing special services for every kid whose parent can afford to have them psychoanalyzed.

Whether or not a state allows collective bargaining has little to do with any of the burdens that drain the school system's resources away from actually succeeding in teaching. I've only worked in Texas (which outlaws collective bargaining by state and local employees) as an administrator and teacher, but I've had kids go to school in Texas and Colorado (where collective bargaining is allowed) and observe no significance difference in educational quality; again we're not comparing Apples-to-apples, but more like Apples-to-Bananas: There are similarities, but there are also many things about both states that make a direct comparison more complicated, e.g. the population of Texas is MUCH larger, demographics in Colorado include fewer low socioeconomic students, and fewer ESL students.


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## hadit (Jun 17, 2014)

It's a societal issue:

1.  Teachers unions are out to benefit the teachers, regardless of impact on the students.
2.  Students are not motivated to learn.  Why should they?  They are taught the world owes them a living.
3.  Parents are not involved in their kids' educations.  They are not motivated to see their children succeed.  There are many reasons for this, from broken homes to drug addictions and back.

Three legs to a stool, and all three contribute to the problem.  Teachers blame the kids, kids blame the parents, and parents blame the teachers, but in the end, society as a whole is to blame.  At one time, the immigrants who built this country insisted their children get educated so they could have a better life than the first ones off the boat.  Now, not so much.  At one time, a kid didn't have much of anything to call his/her own, especially not high-cost toys and clothes.  What they had, they earned by doing extra chores or taking on a part time job when they were old enough.  Now, not so much.  At one time, kids were expected to grow up quickly, to become contributors to society.  Now, not so much.  Watch what happens when kids are home schooled.  Some would love to make "home schooled" an insult or a punchline, but they can't, because usually home schooled kids run rings around government schooled kids.  The difference is, they have engaged parents and motivation to learn.

The bottom line remains, we can't throw enough money at the problem, because the root of the problem is not money related.  The rot lies in the heart and soul of society.  PC fads don't work.  Fancy campuses don't work.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...



Yes, dear.   All of the alleged issues are *textbook*.  Everything from the parents to the liability issues.  What this tells me is that those classes were never taken.  Simply because an ID shows up bearing a message that you want to hear does not make it so.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

Samson said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



He's on ignore.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

hadit said:


> It's a societal issue:
> 
> 1.  Teachers unions are out to benefit the teachers, regardless of impact on the students.
> 2.  Students are not motivated to learn.  Why should they?  They are taught the world owes them a living.
> ...



Yes, which makes the declaration that "It's a Societal Issue" all the more ridiculously pendantic.

Sociological Bleating....fuck....EVERYTHING is a "Societal Issue:" Humans are imperfect. Most governments recognize this, and augment their systems to accomodate for it.

Not the USA, where _NO CHILD IS LEFT BEHIND!!!_
If we could agree that there is a certain volume of stupid that will always reside as an integral portion of our citizenry, then we could expend far fewer resources accomodating them, and far more resources on the portion that will contribute.


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## Unkotare (Jun 17, 2014)

Disir said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...




And you may not want to hear that you're a douchebag, but it is so. Why not take the opportunity to ask a teacher a question and possibly learn something? You could use it.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

Disir said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



I'm certain he's devestated.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

Samson said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



I'm pretty sure he's not.


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## JT8691 (Jun 17, 2014)

Disir said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



You either ignored or missed a previous post of mine. I'll do you the favor and quote it below:



JT8691 said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


> It's working as planned.
> 
> Our educational system was sabotaged and is now designed to "Graduate" generations of permanently uneducated underachievers who must rely on the government for their sustenance, vote Democrat and then go out and have children of their own.
> 
> It's a perfect system, it's just not geared to make kids succeed



nice hypothesis. bummer that it's all false.

and if what you were saying were true, it wouldn't be the red states with the worst educational levels and highest poverty rates.

but if it makes you feel better....


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > It's working as planned.
> ...



Hi rdean!

This tread was missing the partisan wonk appeal: Thanks!


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > It's working as planned.
> ...



It's a NATIONAL PROBLEM and one that we must address ASAP.

It's not a Red or Blue State problem, it's an American problem. Our kids deserve better. They should be taught how to think about things and not what to think; they should be taught how to succeed and not that success is unfair. The system need to be reformed from the top down


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## regent (Jun 17, 2014)

My high school had a 75% dropout rate, those few that graduated could do reasonably well, but then in fifties a new concept came into our culture, juvenile delinquency. Bingo, schools now had to keep kids in school rather than allow them on the streets. Tests, texts, assignments all made easier, we now have the dropout rate reduced significantly but the adjustments were not free.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...



Public education is not a business. It should not be run as one. 

There are several reasons that parents don't show up to meet the teachers. None of them are acknowledged. The primary reason is that you represent an authority figure and if the parents had any issues when they went to school then they carry that with them via their own children. If it's a meet the teacher night that does not delve into the learners progress then it is considered a waste of time.  If they are employed and work those hours, they won't show up. If they have other children and/or no transportation then they may not show up.  If they think their kid is a holy terror then it's another round of humiliation and they won't show. There are those that won't show up because they are high. Those are the breaks.  

Inclusion. Yep, there is a name for it.  It's the districts way of saying that they don't want to pay for special needs teachers. In fact, many of them should not even be mainstreamed.  Some are easy enough providing the learner has already been taught how to work with a specific disability (like dyslexia).  That depends on when it was diagnosed and what steps were taken after (services that should have been in place before they get to your classroom). Time is the only issue if it's been done well. In fact, there are those that become speed readers.

 Whole 'nother ballgame dealing with CAPD or severe cognitive delays. When the IEP reads pick a pencil up and move it across the desk then you have major problems.  By the way, get that out in 55 minutes a day.  In the first two instances (dyslexia and CAPD), they won't get "extra time" in the real world so they are learning how to adapt to that world so that they can "measure up" to the assholes that don't have to take any of this into consideration. 

Are your instructional rubrics clear?  Yep, there is a name for that also.  That's where the criteria is set for a C paper.  There shouldn't be any questions of what qualifies as a C paper.  All bets are off if you continuously try to send paperwork up that says this kid is failing and the administration sends paperwork back down saying, "No."

Many adults complain when they do C work and don't get an A. In the real world, cutting corners pays pretty damn well.  You didn't major in what you teach, amiright? When that doesn't play well then they turn to "office politics" or sabotage other people's work.  

You don't know what purpose tenure serves? You have no idea of why it is in place? Liability not covered? I do find it rather odd that one who is solo in a class all day could make judgements about others who are solo in their classes all day.


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## DGS49 (Jun 17, 2014)

You can blame "society as a whole" for the decline in American public education (and believe me, there is great deterioration), but the greatest single negative factor is the posture taken by our largest teachers' unions (AFT and NEA).  They have abandoned and emphatically rejected any semblance of professionalism and they function in EXACTLY THE SAME way as a labor union representing the most unskilled workers imaginable.  They go to incredible lengths to ensure the retention of incompetent, lazy, and insubordinate teachers, they FIGHT any attempts to measure teacher performance and to link performance to compensation - unless the additional compensation is virtually guaranteed to go to the most senior union members.

Rather than being in the forefront of developing optimum curricula, tests, teaching methodologies, they do nothing but evaluate and criticize any new initiative based SOLELY on how it benefits the members.  The only initiatives that they have any interest in whatsoever are the ones that provide less work, more money, or less responsibility for the teachers.

It does not have to be this way.  There are professional unions both here and abroad that represent engineers and others, and which are working hand-in-hand with Management to make their employers more successful and profitable.

And this is why Teaching has gone from a respected, though underpaid, "profession" to one that is mightily resented by the majority of the American public - and the situation will get worse before it gets better, as we see our property taxes double over the next ten years to pay for their fucking pensions and retiree health benefits.

Blame society.

Right.

It is not difficult to see where the main problem lies.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 17, 2014)

We just need to get all teachers a copy of that textbook that Disir has been referring to and all education problems will be solved.


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## JT8691 (Jun 17, 2014)

Disir said:


> Public education is not a business. It should not be run as one.



Please quote where I suggested that public education should be run like a business. Thanks!



Disir said:


> There are several reasons that parents don't show up to meet the teachers. None of them are acknowledged. The primary reason is that you represent an authority figure and if the parents had any issues when they went to school then they carry that with them via their own children. If it's a meet the teacher night that does not delve into the learners progress then it is considered a waste of time.  If they are employed and work those hours, they won't show up. If they have other children and/or no transportation then they may not show up.  If they think their kid is a holy terror then it's another round of humiliation and they won't show. There are those that won't show up because they are high. Those are the breaks.



Excuses. Parents have plenty of opportunities to meet teachers. And while some of those reasons may be valid for quite a bit of students....not roughly 122/125. If 1% of parents show up something is wrong.



Disir said:


> Inclusion. Yep, there is a name for it.  It's the districts way of saying that they don't want to pay for special needs teachers. In fact, many of them should not even be mainstreamed.  Some are easy enough providing the learner has already been taught how to work with a specific disability (like dyslexia).  That depends on when it was diagnosed and what steps were taken after (services that should have been in place before they get to your classroom). Time is the only issue if it's been done well. In fact, there are those that become speed readers.
> 
> Whole 'nother ballgame dealing with CAPD or severe cognitive delays. When the IEP reads pick a pencil up and move it across the desk then you have major problems.  By the way, get that out in 55 minutes a day.  In the first two instances (dyslexia and CAPD), they won't get "extra time" in the real world so they are learning how to adapt to that world so that they can "measure up" to the assholes that don't have to take any of this into consideration.



You can complain about the "assholes" that don't take disabilities into account in the "real world" all you want. But the reality is that society will NOT adapt to these students. They need to adapt to society. It may be harsh, it may be unpleasant to think about, it may not be PC....but it's the truth. 



Disir said:


> Are your instructional rubrics clear?  Yep, there is a name for that also.  That's where the criteria is set for a C paper.  There shouldn't be any questions of what qualifies as a C paper.  All bets are off if you continuously try to send paperwork up that says this kid is failing and the administration sends paperwork back down saying, "No."


Yes they are clear. However we're mandated to give them work from textbooks (that are obviously NOT papers). Defining words, practicing metaphors, etc. I think I made it clear what I meant by grades.



Disir said:


> Many adults complain when they do C work and don't get an A. In the real world, cutting corners pays pretty damn well.  You didn't major in what you teach, amiright? When that doesn't play well then they turn to "office politics" or sabotage other people's work.



Absolutely many adults complain when they do C work and don't get A's in the "real world". That's becoming a learned trait through the education system though (or at home). It doesn't make it any less of a problem. And when adults DO complain aobut C work not being an A in the "real world"....do they ever win? No. They don't. That's why it should be important to ease the students (and really society as a whole) out of the philosophy.



Disir said:


> You don't know what purpose tenure serves? You have no idea of why it is in place? Liability not covered? I do find it rather odd that one who is solo in a class all day could make judgements about others who are solo in their classes all day.



Did I ever say I don't know what purpose tenure serves? Please fine me that quote...you're starting to develop a habit of putting words in my mouth. It makes your arguments look weak and desperate to be honest with you. I merely said that I don't believe in it--not that I didn't understand it.


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## JT8691 (Jun 17, 2014)

DGS49 said:


> You can blame "society as a whole" for the decline in American public education (and believe me, there is great deterioration), but the greatest single negative factor is the posture taken by our largest teachers' unions (AFT and NEA).  They have abandoned and emphatically rejected any semblance of professionalism and they function in EXACTLY THE SAME way as a labor union representing the most unskilled workers imaginable.  They go to incredible lengths to ensure the retention of incompetent, lazy, and insubordinate teachers, they FIGHT any attempts to measure teacher performance and to link performance to compensation - unless the additional compensation is virtually guaranteed to go to the most senior union members.
> 
> Rather than being in the forefront of developing optimum curricula, tests, teaching methodologies, they do nothing but evaluate and criticize any new initiative based SOLELY on how it benefits the members.  The only initiatives that they have any interest in whatsoever are the ones that provide less work, more money, or less responsibility for the teachers.
> 
> ...



It was very frustrating to see a co-worker of mine who's a teacher (literally) lose all of the work that students handed into them for the entire semester. That same person also complained about having to read tons of essays, and openly admits that they skim through the essays. I know this because that teacher has actually told me those things...and acted like it wasn't that big of a deal.

That person has seniority over MANY teachers who actually do their jobs well.

I don't think the unions are the only main problem...but they definitely are one of them.

There are some crappy teachers...some REALLY crappy teachers. But most teachers are good and bust their asses for the future of their children. It's not accurate to paint all teachers with a broad brush.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> We just need to get all teachers a copy of that textbook that Disir has been referring to and all education problems will be solved.



No, Bob. It's not just one, it's several.  Further,  just playing along to agree with someone that tells you what you want to hear does not resolve issues. It merely reinforces your bias.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Excuses. Parents have plenty of opportunities to meet teachers. And while some of those reasons may be valid for quite a bit of students....not roughly 122/125. If 1% of parents show up something is wrong.



No.

It means only 1% of the parents think you may be doing something wrong.

If I were you, I'd be grateful.

Wait until 100% of parents show up: You'll see what I mean.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> It was very frustrating to see a co-worker of mine who's a teacher (literally) lose all of the work that students handed into them for the entire semester. .



Well, stop watching your co-workers, and you'll be much less frustrated.

Teaching is one of the few opportunities people have to sequester themselves in their own room and do their job. Unless you're invited, do not come out. Make every attempt to eat lunch, grade papers, plan, whatever, in YOUR ROOM ALONE. If invited to a meeting, remain SILENT: Everything you say will be held against you.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 17, 2014)

I went to public school in the Bronx and my parents would never dare to miss a Parent teachers conference.


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## Disir (Jun 17, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Public education is not a business. It should not be run as one.
> ...



I don't have to find an exact quote. It's insinuated in the first line of the OP. These are offered as credentials. 
_I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):_

It's indicated here: 


> The teacher's union. Luckily I live in a right to work state.



It's indicated here: 


> End tenure of teachers. Not every teacher on tenure sucks. In fact most teachers at my schools are very good at what they do. There are a handful of ones who shouldn't be teachers though



It's indicated here: 


> Pay teachers based on performance.



Furthermore, Trying to say that people don't win by cutting corners or whining about C when they don't make an A is exactly how the world works.  They do win.  That's what the kids see in action.  This is how it filters down.   Oddly enough it is those higher up the socioeconomic ladder that have a knipshit.  Those are the ones that have parents that come in and complain that you are holding the kid back from entering Stanford. Working class parents are most often ready to do a beat down on the kid.  

And that union that is so despised?  They are the ones fighting for you to have more control over the classroom. They are also the ones that are going to insist that you should be fairly investigated should a student fail or not have acquired the A and then make false accusations of sexual misconduct.  If you are a male, it isn't a question of if that happens but when.  Gee, again with libaility. 


 Too, those disabilities that will not be allowed in the "real world"?  They are currently learning how to work with those disabilities via the schools so that those assholes won't be able to tell the difference. I'm not down with inclusion.  

You can look down your nose all you want and call those excuses from the parents all you want.  Doesn't change anything.  These are people. People are messy. If people did what I thought they should do then we wouldn't be here.  Some of the parents are intellectually challenged. Some are mentally ill. Some kids are truant because mom has younger kids that need to be watched while they work.  Some parents are gang bangers. Some kids are in foster care because some parents are in prison or dead or they have been neglected/abused. Some kids live with family members that are bed ridden and have no control over the kids because..........they are bedridden.  Some of the parents are drug addicts or heavy drinkers.  Some parents are helicopter parents. Some are enablers.  Some parents are overwhelmed. Some parents are so involved in the school that they use it for power.  Some parents take the word of the administration and don't know how to navigate the schools to acquire testing for their kids because special education services require money. 

The above IS the real world and the only way that you can pretend that it doesn't exist is if you make enough cash to separate yourself from the rest of society.


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## Unkotare (Jun 17, 2014)

I wonder why 'Ditsy' there is so threatened by someone who actually teaches discussing the state of education today?


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## JT8691 (Jun 17, 2014)

Disir said:


> I don't have to find an exact quote. It's insinuated in the first line of the OP. These are offered as credentials.
> _I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):_



I stated that I run my own business to provide a little background. If you ASSUMED that I was suggesting that public education should be run like a business then you're incorrect. And we both know what assuming makes of you.



Disir said:


> It's indicated here:
> 
> 
> It's indicated here:
> ...



Once again you're not grasping the difference between "understanding" and "agreeing with". For example one can understand the arguments for the death penalty...but still not agree with its practice. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, if you're honestly having trouble to do so I suggest that you step back and think about it for a moment.



Disir said:


> Furthermore, Trying to say that people don't win by cutting corners or whining about C when they don't make an A is exactly how the world works.  They do win.  That's what the kids see in action.  This is how it filters down.   Oddly enough it is those higher up the socioeconomic ladder that have a knipshit.  Those are the ones that have parents that come in and complain that you are holding the kid back from entering Stanford. Working class parents are most often ready to do a beat down on the kid.



So you're suggesting that high school kids are studying or actual care about how corporate America operates? Have you been in a classroom since you were in high school? They're much more concerned with what party they're going to over the weekend, or about their significant other drama.

Also cutting corners tends NOT to work in the real world. It catches up with you. People who claim that others get ahead merely by "cutting corners" are using lazy way to explain the success of others, opposed for your own failure.



Disir said:


> And that union that is so despised?  They are the ones fighting for you to have more control over the classroom. They are also the ones that are going to insist that you should be fairly investigated should a student fail or not have acquired the A and then make false accusations of sexual misconduct.  If you are a male, it isn't a question of if that happens but when.  Gee, again with libaility.



Actually in my county female teachers are accused of sexual misconduct at a much higher rate than male teachers are. The headlines just aren't as negative, and it doesn't generate as much media attention. I can't speak about where you live, but where I live this is 100% the case. 

They unions are also the ones who protect bad teachers, bad policies. Personally I want teachers to be paid based on performance. Like I said in my county we have bonuses if teachers achieve specific goals. Why should two teachers be compensated the same amount if they're doing two very different jobs? Where's the incentive for crappy teachers to do better?




Disir said:


> Too, those disabilities that will not be allowed in the "real world"?  They are currently learning how to work with those disabilities via the schools so that those assholes won't be able to tell the difference. I'm not down with inclusion.



Many of these disabilities you cannot simply "hide" from the real world. They're very real disabilities, but instead of trying to pull the wool over society's eyes....why not help the child be able to function in society under society's rules? It's a crappy thing I agree. But if you honestly think that society will EVER adapt to the students with disabilities....then you're being very naive.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> I wonder why 'Ditsy' there is so threatened by someone who actually teaches discussing the state of education today?



I wonder why anyone would bother to defend themselves so vehemently....


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## Unkotare (Jun 17, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why 'Ditsy' there is so threatened by someone who actually teaches discussing the state of education today?
> ...




What's Ditsy even trying to defend himself from?


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Not who I meant.


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## jasonnfree (Jun 17, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have to find an exact quote. It's insinuated in the first line of the OP. These are offered as credentials.
> ...



What I would have against a teacher being paid for performance is that there are too many things beyond the teacher's control.  To name just one thing: some kids, especially boys, don't want to be in school at all and will invent all kinds of ways to keep from being bored, including harassing the teachers.   It was my experience as a student in the 50's, its probably the same or worse today.  How can a teacher be blamed if a student doesn't want to learn or even be in school?  Anyway, good luck with your new profession,  I hope you can make a difference.


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## Disir (Jun 18, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have to find an exact quote. It's insinuated in the first line of the OP. These are offered as credentials.
> ...



  You're dancing. Badly.  That information is inferred from your posts.  Had you meant something else, you would have stated so.  But, you didn't. 

It doesn't matter if in your county there are more accusations of sexual misconduct with women or men. Statistic-wise men are more often accused. Again. Liability. Title IX and monetary damages. Again. Textbook.   This is also about due process.  Unions insist on it. No one wants a crappy teacher.  Unions don't want it either.  So, why don't you show me the specific policies that you feel are holding it up.  You shouldn't have any problem with that.  I got five that says what your angst is related to is due process. 

What's to complain about disabilities in the real world? That is the real world.  I'm just not in the habit of letting someone feel like they are less than the asshat they are when they pretend it isn't the real world. It might be unpleasant to think about.  When you are dealing with a mild learning disability (dyslexia), they are going to give you the expected result but they are learning different strategies that _they_ have to utilize. Thus, society doesn't have to do a damn thing. It's on the individual.   They are _adapting_ to society. Speed is the hold up. Measure twice and cut once. That's textbook. That's not about PC. No courses on special education learning disabilities either?

There are kids that are intellectually disabled and (at best) they will work in low wage jobs. They aren't going to wear their IQ on their forehead.  Society can _still_ walk around and talk about those welfare recipients are just not working hard enough.  See? People aren't prevented from being asshats at all. They can still carry on oblivious to the world around them. 

There are others that will never, ever, ever function in society.  Most of those have a lot of experience dealing with the real world because they encounter bullying on a regular basis. They don't belong in a mainstream classroom.  That boils down to the district and the money that they don't want to spend. Every now and again you can find a bat-eyes-idealist that firmly believes inclusion has phenomenal results.  Most do not.  Most of these kids are not going to be able to participate in the activities and it boils down to exclusion.  That's textbook. 

Again. Unless you make enough cash to isolate yourself from the rest of society or run multiple IDs on a forum from a couple of computers, this is the real world. Most people are going into careers or professions that encounter _other_ people. The real world doesn't give a darn if you don't like _other_ people or they don't meet your _expectations_. No diversity coursework either? 

I'm not suggesting that students would speak the lingo of the corporate world.  Students don't live in a vacuum.  They interpret the world around them based on their life experiences.  But,  cutting corners can be found in simple actions or non actions in something like.....slumlords or mechanics  or drug dealers or watching their parents work in or deal with corporations. It's called a world view and it really is all about them.   No psychology of learning either?


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## Unkotare (Jun 18, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...




It should be.


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## Samson (Jun 18, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



That would be hypocritical.

I seached for phrases in the OP to see if they showed up anywhere else on the www.


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## Disir (Jun 18, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Ok, sweetie. You wanted my attention.  You have about five minutes. Go........


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## Unkotare (Jun 18, 2014)

Disir said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...




You quoted the question, genius. Answer it.


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## Disir (Jun 18, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Listen asshat- I don't like people who lie for  politics.  So, get an argument together or STFU and sit down.


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## Unkotare (Jun 18, 2014)

Disir said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...




Ok, who has lied? The only thing you have proven here is that you are defensive and insecure for some reason.


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## Disir (Jun 18, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I'm actually pretty damn confident.  I'm not in the habit of jumping into battles because they exist.  That isn't what my track record demonstrates.  

Now, if you want to play catch up then go back and reread what I wrote.


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## hadit (Jun 18, 2014)

Samson said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > It's a societal issue:
> ...



Note that I did not prescribe a solution, merely noted that the blame can be plausibly spread anywhere and everywhere.  Note as well that those same imperfect humans managed to create a pretty excellent school system that was the envy of the world 50 odd years ago.  Of course, the best way to address the educational system is to acknowledge that not every child is going to succeed under this educational model.  They just aren't.  If they display the aptitude and drive to successfully master higher education, they should have every door open to them.  If they do not, there needs to be other avenues available to them.  It's really as simple as that.  We have to stop pretending that every child from every background will be equally successful if we just pump enough zombie drugs into them to get them to sit still for an hour.


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## Unkotare (Jun 18, 2014)

Disir said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...




Your reaction to the OP sure doesn't make it seem that way.


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## Disir (Jun 18, 2014)

Then you aren't paying attention.


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## Unkotare (Jun 18, 2014)

I have been paying attention. That's why I asked.


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## Samson (Jun 18, 2014)

hadit said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...



Agreed.

But here's where the next issue arises:

It's pretty easy to administer an educational model to successful students....

But what do we do with unsuccessful students: I.E. once we separate the goats from sheep, now what to do with the goats?

The USA prides itself on socio-economic mobility. Asking the government to separate out the goats is difficult enough, but asking government to then fabricate goat-tasks for this population is much harder. Going out on the Free Market as a Goat is not particularly the best builder of self-esteem.....what if most goats are one color, and sheep another? Or mostly one gender, or religion? We cannot accept these "inequalities."

Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Indians, and practically every other nation on the planet readily accept inequality, and this is the primary reason their school systems are often ranked higher.


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## JT8691 (Jun 18, 2014)

Disir said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



So let me get this straight you think that I would actually take the time to make up an entire story for a small forum on the Internet to discuss a topic with a total of 4-5 strangers that I'll never meet in person....just for the sake of "politics"? Really? I think one of the following:

-You have no life so to you it makes sense that somebody would actually do the above.
-You're very paranoid
-You're resorting to a lazy argument and are going after the poster(s) instead of the actual content

I assure you that I have better things to do than to start this thread based on a "lie", AND I certainly have much more better things to do than to "prove" myself to a complete stranger on an online forum.

Believe me or not--I really don't care.


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## Disir (Jun 18, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I don't. Nothing that you have said in the last seven pages indicates that you have had any courses in education or comprehend the challenges in education.


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## Darkwind (Jun 18, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):
> 
> -Parents lack of interest/involvement with students. I had roughly 150 students and on teacher conference night where parents come in and meet with their teachers I had a total of THREE parents come in. THREE. (I teach a requirement for graduation btw).
> 
> ...


I'm really going to address the highlighted part as I don't have much problem with anything else (with a few quibbles).

In the real world, if you are required to produce something, on time, the employer or anyone else is not going to care that you learn at a different rate.  The expectation is that you meet goals set by someone (a job, teacher, university, government) and that you meet those goals; or you fail.  This falls under the previous paragraph you had in which you complain about being given extra time.  In the real world, extra time means you have failed and it is very likely that this failure will be held against you in some form in the future.


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## JT8691 (Jun 18, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):
> ...



I agree with your point, but the problem is that in classes you could have a wide range of students on completely different reading levels. So at the very start of the year you could have 1/3 of the class being lower readers, 1/3 in the middle and another 1/3 in the higher range. Who do you design your lessons for?


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## JT8691 (Jun 18, 2014)

Disir said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



Great response! All of your responses are "I think you might be lying" "You don't understand the challenges of the education system" or putting words in my mouth. Such as that I'm suggesting we run public education like a business, or that I don't understand the point of a teacher's union.

I'm addressing the issues, you're addressing the people. In the words of Eleanor Roosevelt:

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."


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## Darkwind (Jun 18, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...


I understand that.  However, in order to address the cascading problems that exist in today's public education system would require of Me a doctoral thesis.  So, I am going to limit the perspective to one in which the premise is that public education should focus on getting our young people the education necessary to cope with the realities of what will happen when they enter the adult world of business.  

This means that an employer may have low educational standards for the employees they hire to perform specific tasks.  They are not going to care that some are less educated than others, only that the work is performed to the standard they have set.

This, to Me, has to be one of the first and biggest lesson to be drummed into young people from the 6th grade onward.  Once they understand that, it is very possible they will actually begin to see the real benefit of trying to be smarter than the people around them.  If for no other reason than it benefits them reputation-wise.


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## JT8691 (Jun 18, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...



I agree. I'm not so sure if that would work in getting them to see the benefit of a better education (or skills/trade, there's nothing wrong with that either). But I think some would get the message.


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## Unkotare (Jun 18, 2014)

Disir said:


> Nothing that you have said in the last seven pages indicates that you have had any courses in education or comprehend the challenges in education.



The same could be said of you. Why the big act? What are you hiding, you faker?


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## Disir (Jun 18, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing that you have said in the last seven pages indicates that you have had any courses in education or comprehend the challenges in education.
> ...



Do you have a problem with basic terminology?


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher
> ...



in your business you must have had a very niche market of customers. Many businesses cater to a wide variety of customers. Successful businesses are flexible to the demands of customers. Experienced teachers will teach to the majority skill set, then augment the lesson spending time with individuals that need more help.

Not rocket science.


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

Disir said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
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> > Disir said:
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That pretty much describes the average teacher.


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## Disir (Jun 19, 2014)

Samson said:


> Disir said:
> 
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> > JT8691 said:
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It reads like something ripped from the headlines of a Faux news report. You don't find it the least bit odd?  At all? Basic concepts missing and you don't find this the least bit odd?


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## BobPlumb (Jun 19, 2014)

Disir said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



Considering the audience, no.  The audience of this message board is the general population, not just education professionals.  Thus the over use of education jargon would be a bad idea.  

Also, you posts on this thread provide no evidence that you have any more knowlege about education and teaching than he does.


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

Disir said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



Well, I've already admitted that I did an internet search for phrases in the OP that might indicate it was some cut-n-paste or a bot. You can try the same and perhaps be more successful, I found nothing. Obviously I found the OP somewhat suspicious. 

Also suspicious is the greater concern the OP has demonstreated defending your accusations, and the focus on more global issues (like unions), rather than those that actually effect the classroom teacher's POV: I spent 6 years as a teacher and administrator, and the fact that I was or was not unionized never crossed my mind as something that effected my job or the system that employed me. 

However, real or not; what is the relevance?

There are MANY teachers who, despite whatever training they may have, were unable to grasp basic concepts or implement them effectively. As evidence, one simply needs to access attrition rates. Few teach more than five (5) years. The OP has only taught since February, so I would not expect him to be terribly organized, or for students to be on their best behaviour. If he continues to be "frustrated," then I doubt he'll last more than a year or two.


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## JT8691 (Jun 19, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



This is what I think is being lost in translation. It was the real purpose of why I mentioned my business background...to highlight the point that I think most people without a background in education would be shocked, just like I was. But of course the other poster decided to deflect that topic and say that that was me suggesting that the public educational system should be run like a business.


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## JT8691 (Jun 19, 2014)

Samson said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...



Now you're suggesting that classes be run like a business (just kidding)?

Obviously I would teach what the curriculum mandates, and spend extra time with the weaker students. But you have to keep in mind that not all schools are equal. For example I had one class full of seniors where they didn't know the word "bias", or they couldn't write a paragraph without a plethora of errors...forget about an essay. They couldn't tell you difference between "their" "there" or "they're". All of those students would have been the ones that needed more help.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



Perhaps she wanted to be like the teacher with the question in the linked story.

Blueberries | Jamie Vollmer


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## DGS49 (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691:  Aside from AP classes, does your school segregate students by ability level?


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> But you have to keep in mind that not all schools are equal. For example I had one class full of seniors where they didn't know the word "bias", or they couldn't write a paragraph without a plethora of errors...forget about an essay. They couldn't tell you difference between "their" "there" or "they're". All of those students would have been the ones that needed more help.



You started teaching in February in more than one school?

That's amazing. How many schools have you taught in during the past 4 months?


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## JT8691 (Jun 19, 2014)

DGS49 said:


> JT8691:  Aside from AP classes, does your school segregate students by ability level?



AP, Honors, and Regular, ESE, etc. But in reg classes you can have students who greatly fluctuate in reading levels. Also in the 9th grade classes you can have students in there solely based on their behavior (because middle schools in my district give out conduct grades).




Samson said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > But you have to keep in mind that not all schools are equal. For example I had one class full of seniors where they didn't know the word "bias", or they couldn't write a paragraph without a plethora of errors...forget about an essay. They couldn't tell you difference between "their" "there" or "they're". All of those students would have been the ones that needed more help.
> ...



Are you suggesting that all schools are equal? 

States have different titles of schools (specifically those in lower socioeconomic areas). Is that not true?


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691:  Aside from AP classes, does your school segregate students by ability level?
> ...



First, I'm suggesting that unless you've taught in more than one school, that you would not be able to compare your experience with any other school. The fact that you would detail the example, without contrast, is frankly a little weird.

Second, I have not made any such comparative suggestion myself, but you could quite easily find yourself in different schools, but with the same classroom challenges. Conversely, you could find yourself in very similar schools, and find different classroom challenges.

Finally, I have no idea what the phrase "States have different titles of schools," is supposed to mean. Each school is named differently. Depending on the state, each school may be given a rating, or "grade" based on a variety of rubrics, but none is based on the economic class of the students. 

However I would admit that lower rated schools serve lower socioeconomic areas.

Regardless, classroom management techniques of either high or low rated schools are the same.


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## squeeze berry (Jun 19, 2014)

Samson said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



out of curiosity, what basic concepts?


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## JT8691 (Jun 19, 2014)

Samson said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > DGS49 said:
> ...



Not true. In Florida schools where the population is from a lower socio-economic statuses are known as "title 1" schools. It's completely separate from the actual grade that the school is given.

Florida Department of Education: Title I Programs & Academic Intervention Services


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## SAYIT (Jun 19, 2014)

Disir said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



I find nothing incredible about the OP's experience but indeed rather typical. What I find more than a bit odd is your shrill and disrespectful attempts to avoid dealing with the points raised by the OP. Do you act this insipidly in real time or do you save it for this board?


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

squeeze berry said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...



 [MENTION=25837]squeeze berry[/MENTION]

For example, to motivate students teachers often employ some sort of Punishment/Reward system. Call it Carrot and Stick, or whatever. It is amazing how many teachers do not have any system, and many that do, only employ punishment, with no rewards. 

Of course, the systematic basis is that the punishments and rewards are MEANINGFUL to whoever is receiving them. Many teachers feel good grades are a reward, and bad grades are a punishment. This is because theachers are all academic creatures, where the relationship between punishment and bad grades is very natural: You may as well threaten teachers with 100lashes with a cat-o-nine-tails as give them a "zero" as a grade. The vast majority of students want a "C." Motivating poor students with grades is a rookie mistake.


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...



No.

A "Title I" program or service is a federally funded service; like free and reduced lunch programs. All schools have these. Typically a "Title I" school is one where many students receive these programs. Title I has nothing to do with how the school is ranked by the state, but obviously, schools with many lower socioeconomic students will also struggle with socioeconomic problems.

You seem to want to focus on these broader issues rather than the more basic: _Regardless, classroom management techniques of either high or low rated schools are the same._ Do you have a point? In particular, since you claim in the thread's title that you have a "Teacher's View," certainly you know that basic teaching techniques are employed regardless of how much Title I funding a school receives. Why should this be an issue?


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## JT8691 (Jun 19, 2014)

Samson said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



I never said that they were "rated". I said that they were viewed differently from the districts. For example we have Title 1 AND another term that the DISTRICT assigns to schools in impoverished areas. Also, I simply said that all schools aren't equal, and provided the title 1 as evidence that different schools have different needs.

*The major problem with your point is that you're not encouraged to use the same teaching techniques for the lower socio-economic schools are you're supposed to for other schools.* (At least in my district).

It's why  my district made me take the Haberman Assessment Test:

http://www.habermanfoundation.org/starteacherprescreener.aspx

As you can see its sole purpose is designed to ensure that the classroom techniques are specifically intended for lower income schools.


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...



Your point remains unclear.

What on Earth could "you're not encouraged to use the same teaching techniques for the lower socio-economic schools are you're supposed to for other schools," mean?

Why wouldn't you employ the same classroom techniques in all schools? Perhaps an example would help you articulate your issue: _Exactly what classroom teaching technique seems to be the most different?_ 

Particularly strange is how anyone teaching only for 4 months would be aware of any differences even if they did exist: In how many schools have you taught? You evaded the question because the answer is ONE (1), maybe. How do you have any basis for comparison?

In answering you may want to be aware, there's not much _You_ are going to teach _Me_ about the subject of teaching.

I have taught both AP Physics at a nice suburban high school, and 8th grade Math at a "Title I" school.


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## Samson (Jun 19, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> ... my district made me take the Haberman Assessment Test:
> 
> The Haberman Foundation - Star Teacher Pre-Screener
> 
> As you can see its sole purpose is designed to ensure that the classroom techniques are specifically intended for lower income schools.



Actually, they made you take the test to see if you'd make a good teacher IN ANY ENVIRONMENT INCLUDING A TITLE I SCHOOL:

Which of the following do you think you do not need outside a Title I School:?



> Dimensions Assessed
> 
> 1.*Persistence* predicts the propensity to work with children who present learning and behavioral problems on a daily basis without giving up on them for the full 180 day work year.
> 
> ...



The fact that Dimension #8 and #9 includes relevance "in poverty schools" does NOT make them _irrelevant_ in any other school.


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## Disir (Jun 19, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Of course you do.  

His points were addressed. 

They were not geared towards you.


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## Unkotare (Jun 19, 2014)

Disir said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Disir said:
> ...




Do you have a problem with insecurity?


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## Disir (Jun 20, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Disir said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
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Not at all.


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## JT8691 (Jun 20, 2014)

Samson said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > ... my district made me take the Haberman Assessment Test:
> ...



A few things:

-They only make you take the test if you're applying for Title 1 schools.

-If they wanted you to used the same techniques at Title 1 and other school then why would they test you on teaching techniques before allowing you to apply for a Title 1 school, as opposed to other schools? There would be no point in doing so.

-The overwhelming majority of Haberman focuses on lower-income schools.


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## Samson (Jun 20, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...



Your point remains unclear.

What on Earth could "you're not encouraged to use the same teaching techniques for the lower socio-economic schools are you're supposed to for other schools," mean?

Why wouldn't you employ the same classroom techniques in all schools? Perhaps an example would help you articulate your issue: Exactly what classroom teaching technique seems to be the most different? 

Particularly strange is how anyone teaching only for 4 months would be aware of any differences even if they did exist: In how many schools have you taught? You evaded the question because the answer is ONE (1), maybe. How do you have any basis for comparison?

In answering you may want to be aware, there's not much You are going to teach Me about the subject of teaching.

I have taught both AP Physics at a nice suburban high school, and 8th grade Math at a "Title I" school.


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## Unkotare (Jun 20, 2014)

Samson said:


> there's not much You are going to teach Me about the subject of teaching.





That statement right there suggests you may have forgotten the very first lesson.


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## Samson (Jun 20, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > there's not much You are going to teach Me about the subject of teaching.
> ...




Thanks for another thoughtful contribution to the thread.


Now you can get back to bickering with Disir about other Deep Thoughts.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 20, 2014)

Harry Wong would be so proud!

just kidding


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## Disir (Jun 20, 2014)

No.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 20, 2014)

42


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## Unkotare (Jun 20, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
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Avoiding it suggests a weakness in your character.


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## Samson (Jun 20, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



***yawn***


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## Unkotare (Jun 20, 2014)

^ Another form of avoidance...


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## BobPlumb (Jun 20, 2014)

[ame=http://youtu.be/1sONfxPCTU0]Can We All Just Get Along? For The Kids & Old People? RODNEY KING SPEAKS! - YouTube[/ame]


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## Samson (Jun 20, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> ^ Another form of avoidance...



By golly, I think you're actually getting smarter.

Would you like a cookie?







The different colors should be good stimuli for your mind.

Best of Luck.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 20, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > ^ Another form of avoidance...
> ...



Cookies do more to motivate some students that grades.


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## Samson (Jun 20, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Maybe. Unktore's "special."




He may not take the cookie if we make a big deal about it....


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## psikeyhackr (Jun 20, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> (I teach at a public high school for the record):
> (I teach a requirement for graduation btw).



Aren't teachers proud of what subject they teach?

What is required?

psik


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## Unkotare (Jun 20, 2014)

Samson said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...




Maybe you've never taught anyone anything a day in your life.


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## JT8691 (Jun 21, 2014)

psikeyhackr said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > (I teach at a public high school for the record):
> ...



I teach English which is a requirement for graduation (therefore every student has to take it all four years).

And this thread has been derailed by a few people who have still never said what specifically in my OP they disagree with AND why. The thread is full of deflection.


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## psikeyhackr (Jun 22, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I teach English which is a requirement for graduation (therefore every student has to take it all four years).
> 
> And this thread has been derailed by a few people who have still never said what specifically in my OP they disagree with AND why. The thread is full of deflection.



When my mother came to my high school I took her to the physics lab.  I don't think I took her to meet any English teachers.  4 years of English Lit was required.  Physics was optional though.  Weird.

psik


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## squeeze berry (Jun 23, 2014)

Samson said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



fear is a powerful motivator. It has motivated me all my life......


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## Samson (Jun 23, 2014)

squeeze berry said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > squeeze berry said:
> ...



Yes it is; However, I'm talking about the public school system, not the HMS Bounty during 1789.


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## Jackson (Jun 24, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> ^^^You are nuts.
> 
> I'm done with you, psycho.



Teachers are required to continue their education beyond their bachelors and even the masters to keep their certification current.  Then have to have additional hours upgrade the certification as well.

School systems also have continuing education classes for educators that will increase their salaries.


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## Jackson (Jun 24, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...



I taught in the public school system and had tenure.


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## Jackson (Jun 24, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> How would you fix the problem? What would you do?  What do you suggest should be done?  Or are you just venting? Certainly, your frustration is understandable.



I think we have created this problem by being more than a place of learning.  We tried to be too much.  We were the social engineers, the place for "feeling good",  the place that picked up the pieces when the parents neglected their job.  When we started to be more than what we were originally intended, we lost our way and became baby sitters, pseudo psychologists and forgot that there were lessons that we expected our students to learn.  Instead, we just hoped they would learn them.  And God forbid if we label a child "slow", or failed and student and made him or his parents feel bad......

We  have to go back to the expectations that the students will learn the lessons   or they will fail the grade!  If parents get used to the idea there is a grading system in place and their child must score appropriately within that system to pass, they just may sow up for conferences!  If we start in elementary, keep it strong in middle school and we might find the attitude difference in high school.

But, that means no more Healthy Bear in elementary, no more time for puppet shows and dance shows from the Fine Arts Division, no more days of Healthy Touch and Unhealthy Touch. Or Fireman Freddie  Or Officer Jones on "How to cross the street" Parents have to do their jobs or the day will be lengthened to accommodate these times.  And the unending candy sales and programs!  

Let's just tack another hour on to the day.  But let's make homework mandatory as well.
Teachers who do not assign homework are lazy teachers.


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## squeeze berry (Jun 24, 2014)

Samson said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



I'm glad you have plenty of funds so that you have no fear of losing an income.

You have yet to inform us about your successful motivational tools


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## initforme (Jun 24, 2014)

"Let's just tack another hour on to the day. But let's make homework mandatory as well.
Teachers who do not assign homework are lazy teachers."

I see your point.  However, let's assume a person is teaching in a socio economically deprived area and kids don't complete the in class work.   They assuredly aren't going to do a lick of homework and frankly don't care if they learn or not.   A teacher is going to assign homework and watch them never do it.   WHat is the counter to that?  And there are a lot of these scenarios.  The teacher can't go home with them at night and make sure they are doing their homework.


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## squeeze berry (Jun 24, 2014)

initforme said:


> "Let's just tack another hour on to the day. But let's make homework mandatory as well.
> Teachers who do not assign homework are lazy teachers."
> 
> I see your point.  However, let's assume a person is teaching in a socio economically deprived area and kids don't complete the in class work.   They assuredly aren't going to do a lick of homework and frankly don't care if they learn or not.   A teacher is going to assign homework and watch them never do it.   WHat is the counter to that?  And there are a lot of these scenarios.  The teacher can't go home with them at night and make sure they are doing their homework.



shouldn't homework be a small % of the total grade like 2 to 5 percent?


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## TheJedi (Jun 24, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):
> 
> -Parents lack of interest/involvement with students. I had roughly 150 students and on teacher conference night where parents come in and meet with their teachers I had a total of THREE parents come in. THREE. (I teach a requirement for graduation btw).
> 
> ...



Here are some of my suggestions to fix this:

As far as standards go, Common Core goes way too far. In my opinion, standards should should be set in terms of curriculum:


*  Science* - Biology/evolution, Chemistry, Physics, Climate science, Scientific method/experimentation
 *  Math* - Basic Math, Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, Statistics and Probability
*Literature* - Classic Lit, Contemporary Lit, Poetry, Creative writing, Argumentative Essays, Journalism, Philospohy
*History* - American History (real history, not watered down, revisionist history), Early Western Civilization, Far East History, African and Middle Eastern history
*Technical Education* - Computer Science, Programming, Electrical/Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Architecture
* Civics* (this needs to make a comeback) - The Constitution, Judicial process, Criminal Justice, the electoral process, the legislative process
*Health and Fitness* - Physical Education, Nutrition, Basic health, Sex Ed
*Creative Arts* - Art, design, theater, music
*Practical Applications* (putting what you learn to work in the real world): Tax Prep, Banking/household budgets, Organizational skills, Debating, Critical thinking, Information filtering, Advertising/Marketing


In 12 years of schooling kids should be able to get exposure to all of thisadjusted for age of coursewith specialization beginning at the high school level to allow students to follow what they are most passionate about.

After this, we need to establish a universal grading system because right now they are not ALL the same. An A in one school can be equivalent to a C in another so this should be standardized with the exceptions being schools designed specifically for gifted and talented students (read: geniuses) and special education (kids with behavioral and/or mental deficiencies).

Now we get to the controversial part: Testing.

As it is now, constant testing and stat tracking is killing the quality of education and puts a tremendous amount of pressure on young children, parents and teachers alike.

*Quizzes* should be a tool used by a teacher to determine the progress of his or her students as far as retention goes and not be used a measure of a teachers performance by outside agencies. If a teacher notices a kid is falling behind then he/she just needs to contact the parents and explain it to them and help the parents make decisions as to whether or not to place a child in remedial education to help them grasp the basics.

*Mid-Terms and Finals* should be the only two real tests kids take during each marking period. These will determine if the kids are really grasping the material or not and should be a better reflection of teacher performance.

*Aptitude testing *should be used to gauge a child's potential and help with class placement so they get an education that is on-par with their potential along with other kids at the same level. The kids should not even know what these tests are for to alleviate any potential stress. Tests like these should be given every two or three years or at a teacher's discretion if they feel a child is either outgrowing their current level or falling behind. These tests should not be placed on a student's record but rather used as tool, that through a collaboration of parents and educators, will help to insure that a child is getting education on par with their current abilities. This is important because kids develop and mature at different levels so they are far from equal and forcing them into a rigid structure which they may or may not be ready for is only doing them an injustice.

Thee are also social issues that need to be addressed:

*Behavioral issues* are also very important. Some kids have behavioral problems that cannot be fixed by a teacher and kids like this tend to take a disproportionate amount of a teacher's time. This not only puts undo pressure on a teacher to discipline a child in an environment where the slightest thing said can be blown out of proportion and cause overly sensitive parents to complain and/or sue, but it also has a negative impact on the rest of the class because their teacher is spending 25% of class time dealing with an unruly child. These kids need to be identified and placed into classes with teachers who specialize in educating kids with behavioral problems. All teachers should have some background in basic psychology to help identify these issues and get these kids into a program that will help them adjust to the school's social environment.

These are the kinds of standards I would like to see in public education. Privatization of public services had proven time and time again to increase costs and degrade the quality service. It will not work for education but I think there is room for compromise such as mandating that any private institution that contracts with a state or local government must adhere to the basic standards (what I mentioned above) and work in a non-profit capacity. IF that kind of compromise is reached, I can get on-board with that. Profit and education do not mix.

*Teacher's Unions*

This part gets messy. Unions are great for insuring fair pay and ideal working conditions but they can also be problematic when dealing with teachers who are not doing their job well. The union itself needs to reform and find an internal way of weeding out the bad seeds but I doubt this will happen. This is common in all forms of organizational structures as they seem to adhere to this "Our people, right or wrong" method without holding anyone accountable. I think getting rid of tenure is a good idea. One should not suddenly become un-fireable because they put the time in. It's effort and ability that counts.

*Flexible teaching methods*

The system I envision give teachers more latitude in how they conduct their classes so long as they teach the material in the basic curriculum. This can allow schools to see what works and what doesn't for their student base and give them the flexibility to shuffle kids around until they get them in a class structure that is on par with their learning curve. Education needs to be organic, not rigidly defined and have the latitude to evolve and change as needs and technology changes.

It isn't perfect, but I think it is a start.


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## Jackson (Jun 24, 2014)

initforme said:


> "Let's just tack another hour on to the day. But let's make homework mandatory as well.
> Teachers who do not assign homework are lazy teachers."
> 
> I see your point.  However, let's assume a person is teaching in a socio economically deprived area and kids don't complete the in class work.   They assuredly aren't going to do a lick of homework and frankly don't care if they learn or not.   A teacher is going to assign homework and watch them never do it.   WHat is the counter to that?  And there are a lot of these scenarios.  The teacher can't go home with them at night and make sure they are doing their homework.



Alright, if most of the students are not completing the in-class assignments, the teacher should be altering these assignments so half are being completed in the time allotted with her assistance if necessary.  Then the rest of the classroom assignment should be assigned for homework after the teacher feels confident the majority of the students have the knowledge to complete it.  

(If and when the homework assignments are not being completed, a form letter should be going home to the parents letting them know that homework is an expected assignment and will be graded as such.  That will affect their grade average and have an affect of passing or failing the course.  This should be signed by the principal as well.)

For those who are still not understanding the material,  the teacher can be accessible for an hour after school for those who need the additional help.  The teacher can inform the parents that she plans to be available and the parents should make arrangements to get the students there and pick them up after 1/2 hour sessions.

We cannot just throw up our hands and say they won't do the work.  Try everything.


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## Jackson (Jun 24, 2014)

TheJedi said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > I run my own business, and after years and years of hard work I got it to the point where I can get a job AND run my business....so I decided to become a teacher. I've been teaching since February and what I've found STUNS me. Here's a list of the main problems I've encountered (I teach at a public high school for the record):
> ...



Jedi, I really liked your post and could identify with much of it.  Here's some of my thoughts...

Parents lack of interest... Big Problem.  Probably number one.  My answer to that has had some success and it comes with rapport.  It starts early in the year where I keep contact with all of my parents about almost everything.  They usually get a note from me weekly if I am on top of my game (elementary).  That is hard to for with 150 students, so , aim high at once a month.  The personal note should be something positive that the student did in class, asked a great question answered a question well, improvement in class behavior, grades, etc.  Even how alert they always are, SOMETHING.  Well behaved but lacking skills, say something about the great job in parenting they did.

Then when assignments are not coming in, get that note out fast, "I knew you would want to know....)  And Thank you for your help at home!  I so appreciate it!


Remind all parents in the middle of quarters the all assignments make up their grade...they are earned...not given.

Points for trying...what a joke!  When I took my drivers test 3 times, I wish I had gotten points for trying! LOL  Tell them points are earned for mastery of a skill not just showing up.

Extra time?  - Sure.  We can give them another full year.  If they need an adjusted curriculum, that should be worked out with an IEP.

Teacher's Union -  A union does not have anything to do with children and that is what we are about.  If we want to be considered professionals, we should handle ourselves as professionals and rise above the blue collar job.  The president of the AFT once said "I'll start thinking of the students when they pay my dues."  We can be better than that.  We should have professional organizations that do not play politics with the future of our children.  Professional organizations do studies on how to make education work.

Touching students - Who doesn't need an arm around them telling the "Good job," or Tomorrow we'll get it.?"  Things can be carried too far.  We have to be reasonable.

Flexible teaching methods - I agree with you 100%  Whatever works!

I can tell you are a good and thoughtful teacher!


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## Samson (Jun 25, 2014)

squeeze berry said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > squeeze berry said:
> ...



You've yet to demonstrate the capacity to be informed.


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## Samson (Jun 25, 2014)

Jackson said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > ^^^You are nuts.
> ...



Not sure which state about which you are referring, but it would be interesting to hear the particulars: "Continuing Education" as applied to teaching could mean anything from a hour, to a day workshop, but the term should not be misconscrued to mean even 3 semester hours of college credit every year.

Upgrading certification may be a different matter, but certainly not a manditory issue: MAINTAINING certification is the crtical issue.


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## Samson (Jun 25, 2014)

initforme said:


> "Let's just tack another hour on to the day. But let's make homework mandatory as well.
> Teachers who do not assign homework are lazy teachers."
> 
> I see your point.  However, let's assume a person is teaching in a socio economically deprived area and kids don't complete the in class work.   They assuredly aren't going to do a lick of homework and frankly don't care if they learn or not.   A teacher is going to assign homework and watch them never do it.   WHat is the counter to that?  And there are a lot of these scenarios.  The teacher can't go home with them at night and make sure they are doing their homework.



Teachers who assign homework, knowing that it won't be done, are idiots.

I had the pleasure of spending an entire summer teaching and administering a Title I summer school. Two Four Hour classes a day.

Assign ONE thing at a time. Every day, be would begin: "Please write your name on your paper," then I walk around the room, check their names are written, give them 100%. Then we bein working Problem #1: Can you Copy what I do. Yes? you keep your 100%; No, you lose 10%. Check All papers....and so on and so forth finally I put up something they do one their own, grade, then move on.

Again not rocket science, but there's always some whiny academic that claims the method has its faults. The main problem is that it is hard for teachers. Most teachers have the fantacy that kids will naturally be interested in everything they say, they blather away for 15 minutes, assign 10 problems, then sit on their ass for the balance of the hour. These teachers are astonished when only a few students turn anything in the next day, and quickly assign "zeros," confident that giving the students that didn't give a shit to begin with will now be inspired.


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## Jackson (Jun 26, 2014)

Samson said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > "Let's just tack another hour on to the day. But let's make homework mandatory as well.
> ...



I had to smile when you wrote that the teacher sat on her ass the remaining time of the hour.  Boy, isn't that the worst?  That isn't what a teacher is.  The teacher is walking around, seeing that they are working and they understand the assignments.  Anyone can sit on the dufus after a lecture.  The real teacher monitors and teaches while they are working.  Catching errors as they happen is the  fastest way to create understanding of material.


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## Jackson (Jun 26, 2014)

Why are teachers thinking testing is so controversial?  Tests make teachers become better teachers.  You can evaluate yourself.  You teach a lesson, review it, and give a quiz.  If many of the students as a whole don't perform well on the quiz...it's time to reteach.  Redo your plans and go over that material in depth perhaps in a different way.  But you didn't get through to the kids and that means you didn't do your job well enough.

Those who find that quarterly or finals are the only tests that should be done, you're wrong.  It's too late to remediate.  Keep on top of the students' progress or lack of.

One thing I always did at the end of the year is sent out an evaluation on my program and my teaching to parents.  Since I taught students who were supposed to fail the kdg, but instead went on the a modified first grade (with me and my adjusted curriculum but the same criteria to progress to the second grade), I retained usually 1/3 of the students and passed 2/3 with accelerated scores.

But it was important for me to know how they felt about my teaching, homework, motivational skills, ease of conferencing and whether they thought I was fair.  I knew I was hard on passing students for they had to have proven standardized scores and reading levels within one month of actual grade level to be considered a success in my classroom.  Some had scores approaching 3rd grade level in sub sections of reading literacy.  Spelling was completely different from the regular classroom teachers. I taught high level multisyllabic words for decoding purposes.

Although students were retained, parents felt that their children learned more in my class that repeating kdg. and wanted to see the program continue.

This was a Title I school, but parents had a positive first experience with school and the students never failed to meet the requirements of first grade when leaving my room.  That is the way it should be in every classroom.  If they don't meet the mandated mark, the are held back and get the chance to build a strong foundation.  No social promotions.  When parents realize their child can fail, it's interesting how they can show up for conferences, too.

Giving kids a chance...means not putting them in 6th grade,, reading at the 2nd grade level.


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 26, 2014)

I was a teacher for 7 years, and don't remember ever getting to sit on my ass, ever. I do remember having upwards of 400 students and a workload that no human being could keep up with. And I remember being completely exhausted after 7 years.

So, not all teachers are alike.

Just sayin'....


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## Esmeralda (Jun 27, 2014)

Not all teaching situations are the same.


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## regent (Jun 27, 2014)

Jackson said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > How would you fix the problem? What would you do?  What do you suggest should be done?  Or are you just venting? Certainly, your frustration is understandable.
> ...



Make homework mandatory to prevent lazy teachers may be indicative of what's wrong with education.


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Not all teaching situations are the same.


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2014)

regent said:


> Make homework mandatory to prevent lazy teachers may be indicative of what's wrong with education.






Perhaps the first assignment should be to write a sentence in English.


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## initforme (Jun 27, 2014)

"I was a teacher for 7 years, and don't remember ever getting to sit on my ass, ever. I do remember having upwards of 400 students and a workload that no human being could keep up with. And I remember being completely exhausted after 7 years."


Well you were surely overpaid and under worked.   Not to mention you worked for the state gov't which means you were a "taker.". 

Imagine there is a group of people who actually believe the above statement.   Scary.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 27, 2014)

initforme said:


> "I was a teacher for 7 years, and don't remember ever getting to sit on my ass, ever. I do remember having upwards of 400 students and a workload that no human being could keep up with. And I remember being completely exhausted after 7 years."
> 
> 
> Well you were surely overpaid and under worked.   Not to mention you worked for the state gov't which means you were a "taker.".
> ...



I had a teacher that had probably 400 or more students at one time, but that was chemistry in college.  Class was held in an auditorium with a seating capacity of a couple hundred students.


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## Jackson (Jun 27, 2014)

I have heard many people who have taught in the past and left say that teaching is the hardest job they have ever had.  If you are doing it right, it is.  But it is the most rewarding!

All of us were capable of choosing another profession with higher salaries resulting in the finer things in life.  But other jobs are not a "calling" like I feel teaching is.  

Bless those teachers that make a difference.  And many of them are in this thread, I think!


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## Esmeralda (Jun 27, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > "I was a teacher for 7 years, and don't remember ever getting to sit on my ass, ever. I do remember having upwards of 400 students and a workload that no human being could keep up with. And I remember being completely exhausted after 7 years."
> ...



I've had that experience, at a large state university.  Not the best way to learn and impossible for the teacher to get to know his/her students and give much one-to-one attention.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 27, 2014)

regent said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



I don't think it is a good idea to assign  homework just to assign homework, and that's what happens when you make it mandatory.  The real issue is what happens in the classroom, what happens between the students and teacher, and whether or not the teacher uses effective teaching methods.  Assigning homework just because is simply adding busy work to the course.  Not useful at all.


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 27, 2014)

initforme said:


> "I was a teacher for 7 years, and don't remember ever getting to sit on my ass, ever. I do remember having upwards of 400 students and a workload that no human being could keep up with. And I remember being completely exhausted after 7 years."
> 
> 
> Well you were surely overpaid and under worked.   Not to mention you worked for the state gov't which means you were a "taker.".
> ...





So, learn to use the quote function like an adult. The quote you made is of me.


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 27, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > "I was a teacher for 7 years, and don't remember ever getting to sit on my ass, ever. I do remember having upwards of 400 students and a workload that no human being could keep up with. And I remember being completely exhausted after 7 years."
> ...



I was a High School and Middle School Music Educator, which means I taught:

Middle School Band
7th grade Chorus
8th grade Chorus
Middle School General music
High School Marching Band
High School Concert Band
High School Pep Band
High School 9th grade Chorus
High School Concert Choir
The school musical.

I also substituted for the HS Orchestra whenever the Orchestra director was sick.

I never had a study hall, because my day went through from start to finish, without end. I remember days when I hit the bathroom at 6 am, again at 6 pm.

That meant putting together 6-7 marching band shows a year, plus festivals, plus competitions. Then, in concert season, the obligatory 3 concerts per year, plus sight-reading placement tests for band seating, plus local and then, if we got a I, state concert band competition.

it also meant prepping kids who auditioned for either the McDonalds national band or the NBA all honors National Band, or the All-State (Ohio) band. I usually had one or two kids who made it that far.

That also meant the obligatory 3 concerts per year per choral group, plus the prep for the school musical, everything from building the set, to doing the staging rehearsals to rehearsing the orchestra to coaching the singers to selling tickets. This also meant teaching sight-singing to most kids, who, unless they are crossovers from other instruments, have no idea what a note looks like.

This also meant organizing, hosting and preparing small ensemble for the yearly solo-and-ensemble competition. It also meant the ability to accompany my own choral ensembles and write my own marching band arrangements.

The also meant the ability to carry clarinet reeds with me at all times, never knowing when a clarinet reed would go kaputt, to having portable heaters in marching season to bring the Sousaphones halfway up to temperature before going out onto the field, to dealing with catfighting majorettes and jealous non-majorettes, to assembling the band at the last instant once because the Superindendent decided that we would play the final Bush rally in Ohio on election day, 1992. I got the call at 1 am and by 6 am, my marching band was assembled and ready to go.

This still meant writing the usual evaluations that all teachers have to write, attending in-services that didn't do me a damned bit of good, etc.

it also meant giving private lessons to kids on certain instruments, for instance, converting a High School tenor in Choir to play Horn 3 in the concert band.

This also meant attending band and choir booster meetings, fundraising to get enough money to buy the next needed oboe or english horn and also participation of the ensembles in civic activities like church ice-cream bazaars, or funerals for known community members who passed on.

It often meant teaching the full day, then having marching band rehearsal until 4, show choir until 5:30, a private lesson until 6:30, then the pep band for the basketball game until 9:30 - and then, I graded papers from that morning's general music class full of seventh graders who were still learning how to rhyme together 3 words into a coherent sentence.

I usually kept three extra pairs of clothes in my office: marching band suit, marching band practice shorts and shirt, extra suit for evening meetings, etc.

The one blessing was that the HS faculty was strongly behind me, for I also released kids in the few off days of the year to prep for their SAT tests, etc.

I had no assistant. 400 kids.

After 7 years, it was just too much.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 27, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...



That certainly explains the large number of students and the work load.


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> After 7 years, it was just too much.



Seven Years seems like a pretty good stint.

What was it that finally broke you?

Sousaphones halfway warmed up?

Carrying clarinet reeds? 

Catfighting majorettes?




Seventh graders.


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## Andylusion (Jun 27, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > How would you fix the problem? What would you do?  What do you suggest should be done?  Or are you just venting? Certainly, your frustration is understandable.
> ...



*-Give teachers more control of their classrooms.*

Agreed, or in other words, get the Federal Government completely out of education.  Leave it to the states, and push states for more academic freedom to teach as teachers see best to teach.   Leave it to the parents to enforce quality education.

The Federal government has no business being in education at all.

*-End tenure of teachers.*

I don't know of any other aspect of society which has "tenure", and I disagree with the idea at the most fundamental level.

*-The parent situation obviously can't be addressed by the school system/teachers.*

Yes it can, but it requires a fundamental change in our view of education.  When you tell people they have a 'right' to education, and that it is the 'responsibility of the government', then yeah, people are going to think they don't have to do anything, and it's your job to fix their kids.

The solution is to kick those kids out of school.  When you FORCE parents to deal with their kids, suddenly they'll take the time and effort to make their kids do well in school.

*-Pay teachers based on performance.
-Don't just pass students through just because they completed their work.*

Here's the problem with that line of thinking.   I would love to do that....  but here's the issue.

Think back to those kids that you had as a teacher.  And you went to the parents, and they don't care, and then you went to the student, and they don't care....

What do you do?   How can you force a student to learn, if he doesn't want to?

Well you can't.   As I told you, my mother was a public school teacher.  She had several students like this.   They didn't care.  Their parents didn't care.   And there was nothing she could do about it.

One student caused so much of a problem, he was in the principals office two days every week.

Now of course, if you are missing 2/5ths of the class time, you tend to fail all of your tests.

If you penalize teachers on performance, when they have students that they simply can't teach... what do you do?    Is it fair to cut the pay of teachers, for having students who refuse to learn?

This is why you end up with teachers passing kids who have not learned anything.   Teachers are not going to accept this.

Remember Atlanta school system cheating deal?   Go read up on that.  The teachers said over and over, the reason they did it was because if the students failed, they would be penalized or even terminated.

So... they cheated.   They had the same problem over in the UK some years back, where government handed down some 'performance based system', and the result was teachers padded the numbers.

And by the way, this applies to everything.   The whole VA scandal, is all about government setting a standard "you must provide care in this time frame", and since the VA hospital administrators have no control over that, they simply told their people "meet the requirements", and since the people at the hospital had no control over that, they simply.... cut the list.

Same thing happened in the NHS in the UK.  The UK government said you must provide care in a specific time frame, and so they had the 'official waiting list', and then the 'unofficial waiting list'.

When you make up arbitrary requirements, people are going to do what they have to, in order to keep their jobs, and not get in trouble.   If they have to pad the grades, in order to keep their jobs, then they are going to do it.

Instead, the solution again, as I said above... kick the bad students out.  Education is not a right.  It is a privilege to be earned.  When students have to earn an education... they will.


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2014)

Androw said:


> ...  Leave it to the parents to enforce quality education.
> 
> .....The solution is to kick those kids out of school.  When you FORCE parents to deal with their kids, suddenly they'll take the time and effort to make their kids do well in school.
> 
> ...



Essentially, you are saying public education should NOT be manditory.

The bad students will be left at home with bad parents, who will simply drive them to the other side of the country and abandon them.

Then what do you suggest happens next?

I'm not actually disagreeing with you, but there is a valid arguement for creating some sort of "LAST RESORT." Within most school systems this is known as an "Alternative Campus." Kids are still required to attend school, but are simply warehoused seperately from other students to give those that may have an opportunity to teach and learn the chance to do so without distraction. 

Expulsion is the next, and final step


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## BobPlumb (Jun 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > ...  Leave it to the parents to enforce quality education.
> ...



If public education were thought of as a privilege rather than a right, perhaps it would be more respected.  Today's college degree is yesteryear's high school diploma.


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## Jackson (Jun 27, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...



It's amazing you lasted 7 years.  My guess is you were very hard to replace!  Kudos!


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## Jackson (Jun 27, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...



Speaking of college, it used to be a place for qualified students.  Look at colleges now.  They have remedial courses in reading and writing!  $$$$$ instead a place of higher learning!


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...



So only the "priviaged" would be educated?

Like Mexico.


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## BobPlumb (Jun 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



All that want to be "privileged" would be educated.  Many students are hostile to the classroom environment and do not recognize the value of an education.


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## Unkotare (Jun 27, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...





Wow, imagine how exhausted you would have been if you had been teaching a real subject!


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## Unkotare (Jun 27, 2014)

BobPlumb said:


> Today's college degree is yesteryear's high school diploma.





Are you saying that "yesteryear" only 34% of Americans earned high school diplomas?


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## Jackson (Jun 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > BobPlumb said:
> ...



It seems his shoes would be hard to fill.  I wouldn't be degrading it as you are doing.


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## Andylusion (Jun 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > ...  Leave it to the parents to enforce quality education.
> ...



That kind of logic, is the same as the 'if we reform welfare and food stamps, kids will be starving in the street'.

Yet in the 90s, we reformed welfare, kicked people off welfare and food stamps, and people simply got jobs, and fed their kids.

My answer:  People are not going to just 'oh well my kids will just be stupid'.  No people will do what is required to motivate their kids to get good enough grades to stay in school.   They will suddenly have an interest in talking with the teachers to make sure their kids are not kicked out.

The point of my post is that the system we have in place, encourages the behavior we are seeing.    We make it law that it's government job to educate, and that everyone is 'entitled' to an education.... then we're shocked parents don't care to be bothered with it?   We're shocked parents have the attitude of "it's your job to educate my kids, so do it"?

Most parents do care about their kids being educated, they just simply believe it's government job, and they shouldn't have to bother with it.   Let's eliminate that belief system first.   That will solve (I believe) a great deal of the problem.

Ever wonder why parents of students at private schools are extremely involved in the progress of their children through the system?   Well of course the answer is very obvious....  they are paying for it.   If their child starts getting lousy grades, they kick his butt out of the private school, and all the thousands on thousands they paid for that private education is completely lost.    There is no possible way they are going to let that happen.   They will have that kid locked in his room, with a text book taped to his face, before they lose that investment.

*Now as for the parents who really truly don't care about their kids*

I would argue there is no policy, no system of any kind that we can do for them.    At least I know of no such system that works.   If the parents truly don't care, and the kid doesn't care, there is nothing I know of that you can do.

Typically kids that care, don't need to be isolated.   All you have to do is remove the bad kids who don't care, and the ones that do will snap to.

Therefore, why should we waste the money on the bad ones?   This is exactly why we spend more money on education than nearly anyone else in the world, and yet have relative to that spending, lousy educational outcomes.

I've seen those 'tough love' things, and my experience is, kids will go through them, and snap to just long enough to get out, and then they end up just as bad as not having them go at all.

The kids that truly don't care, there is nothing I know of that works for them.   If you can't reach them through the parents, and they themselves have no interest in learning at all, there is nothing you can do.  No program you can put them in, no work shop, no boot camp, nothing.

A man convinced, against his will, is of the same opinion still.

Remember that?   That's an old truism for a reason.   Because it is absolutely true.   If someone doesn't want to learn, you might be able to force him with brutality, but ultimately the moment he's free, he'll go back to the way he was.

So my opinion is, all those kids who don't want to learn, should be set loose.   They'll either learn from the school of hard knocks, or they won't.  But I don't believe there is any reason to think we can force them to suddenly 'wake up' and realize they need an education.


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## Andylusion (Jun 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Yes absolutely.   Privilege meaning, those that have earned the privileged.

Just like driving.  Driving is not a constitutional right, and we don't want it to be a right..... do we?   You want everyone entitled to drive a lethal machine at high speed?   Of course not!

Well education should be the same.   Why are we hiring teachers with PhDs, to spend a hundred thousand a year, to teach kids that honestly could not possibly care less, and will absolutely refuse to learn anything?

Why?  What's the logic there?    And then we wonder why we give schools more and more money every year, and get worse and worse results??


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## Andylusion (Jun 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > Today's college degree is yesteryear's high school diploma.
> ...



He's referring to the value of the diplomas.    It used to be that if you were in college, you were already well educated, and the term 'higher learning' meant you were being educated in something well beyond the education of a high school.

Now, in today's American education system, we have colleges that teach you what you should have learned in high school.

I've seen this first hand.   I met a 11th grader, that didn't know how to do a division problem on a calculator.    You know like press the 5 key, press the / key, press the 2 key, now press the = key.

He didn't know how to do the division problem.    11th grade.   Basic division.

This is the reality of our education system now.  And by the way, that student was not a dumb student.  He wasn't.   He just didn't care.   He was more interested in chasing girls, and playing video games.   He didn't care, and I bet you a paycheck, his parents didn't care, or he was in a broken home.   Either way, no one was pushing him to care.


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## 80zephyr (Jun 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > After 7 years, it was just too much.
> ...



I am enjoying this thread. Can I ask you a few questions?

Are you teaching now?

If not, why not?

Mark


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## Esmeralda (Jun 28, 2014)

Jackson said:


> I have heard many people who have taught in the past and left say that teaching is the hardest job they have ever had.  If you are doing it right, it is.  But it is the most rewarding!
> 
> All of us were capable of choosing another profession with higher salaries resulting in the finer things in life.  But other jobs are not a "calling" like I feel teaching is.
> 
> *Bless those teachers that make a difference*.  And many of them are in this thread, I think!



Quite right.

I think it depends on the situation, but overall, what we need is not a universal approach to educating each individual student, a universal idea of what is good teaching and what isn't.  For example, in one of Jackson&#8217;s posts, she said that teaching a lesson and then quizzing the students on it was effective. It is to an extent as far as acquiring facts. It's an effective way of teaching first or second graders, as Jackson was doing. But as the student develops and ages, there needs to be different levels of questions, as is outlined in Bloom's Taxonomy.  As the student matures and begins to develop critical thinking skills, a quiz is not enough to ascertain what a student is learning 

The point is that what is appropriate at one level is not appropriate at another.  As well, Jackson mentioned she was teaching at-risk students.  Again, teaching methods would be specific to those types of students.  

One thing I would do is reinstitute tracking.  I would estimate that at least 50% of the student population country-wide are not academically inclined and should not be pushed through a program that is meant to prepare them for university study.  There should be tracking once students have completed elementary school, from 6th grade on.   Students who are not meant for university studies should be in vocational schools, vocational programs, and then they would not be so unhappy, so frustrated, so caught in a trap when it comes to school.  They would be studying something they like with some basic courses in reading, writing and arithmetic.  

I believe this simple change would have a monumental effect on education in America.  We made a huge mistake in taking away tracking.  Students should not be forced into any specific track. It should be a choice of the student and family, involving a consultation with the teacher.  If a student begins the tracking program and wishes to switch from an academic program to a vocational program, and visa versa, she would be able to.


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## Samson (Jun 28, 2014)

80zephyr said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Statistikhengst said:
> ...



No.

Why not = Money


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## Andylusion (Jun 28, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > I have heard many people who have taught in the past and left say that teaching is the hardest job they have ever had.  If you are doing it right, it is.  But it is the most rewarding!
> ...



There is some truth to this.

I would say that some consistency in teach methods would be beneficial.

That doesn't mean that there is one teaching style that need implemented across the entire country, but I would suggest that having a consistent style in each individual school system would be helpful.

My personal experience was that students (like myself), would learn skills that fit a particular teaching style, and then you would go to a different class under a different teacher, and suddenly everything you learned was useless, because the teaching method was completely different.

It might be helpful if each school system had some basic guide lines on teach method.   Not that all schools would be the same, because obviously some kids do better with one style over another.

Of course, this idea involves students / parents, picking schools that suit their kids best, which of course involves a voucher system and the freedom to choose the school you want.

It's just an idea anyway.


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## Esmeralda (Jun 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...



You are confusing teaching method with the content that is taught.  Teaching methods have to do with, for example, using different levels of questioning, such as are outlined in Bloom's Taxonomy.  You learn the same material whether a teacher uses that method to help you learn or not.  

If you go from one teacher to another and feel what you learn with one teacher is useless with another, it may be the terminology to discuss what you learned that was different, but it wouldn't be methods that would cause you to feel that knowledge or skills about a subject were different.

One thing that happens is that different text books have different ways of structuring material and different terminology to discuss it. So, if you use one text book with one teacher and a different one with another, it seems like you're learning different skills with different teachers. 

Even if there is no text book, one teacher might learn how to teach structuring the material one way and using a particular terminology, while another teacher structures it another way and uses a different type of terminology.  This is confusing, I agree.  

The way to fix that is to have an agreed upon curriculum and curriculum delivery in any one school. Thus, you go from one year to the next with the same text book publisher and curriclum program. For example, your math books in all your classes throughout grammar school come from one publisher with a year to year outlined curriculum, using the same type of presentation and structure to teach math and a consistent terminology.  

However, those are not teaching methods.  Teaching methods have to do with levels of questioning; addressing different learning styles; or some teachers being more traditional in their approach to teaching, like mostly lecturing, and other teachers being more creative, with students doing lots of group work or hands on work.

Really good teachers are artists in a way: they are inspired and have their  own style. If you force all teachers to teach in one style, you will lose most of your really good teachers because you will be boxing them into a uniform style that does not allow them to, essentially, fly, as all artists do.  You cut off their wings.  That's not good.


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 28, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > BobPlumb said:
> ...



It is a real subject, and a critical one at that.

Did you know that until the 1700s, Music was classified as a science, and not an art, in terms of education?

Music stimulates parts of the brain that no other auditory form can. Music is mathematics in sound.

It is a VERY real subject, and only the best of the best have the stuff necessary to teach it effectively.


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## Unkotare (Jun 28, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> It is a real subject, and a critical one at that.






Oh, of course. I mean, if you can't play the oboe you're pretty much finished for life.


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