# Female genital mutiliation



## Luddly Neddite (Nov 18, 2013)

I've just been watching a documentary called Sarabah about a Senegalese musician traveling to villages ad doing free programs about FGM. 

Two things really stand out in the footage of these people - One is that they speak 3 languages and the other is that some percentage of men are at least willing to consider ending the "tradition". And the majority of women. 

It will be a long time before its completely abandoned though.


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## waltky (Jan 15, 2016)

Old country customs find their way to America...

*Study: Number of US Girls, Women at Risk of Genital Mutilation Triples*
_ January 14, 2016 — More than half a million women and girls in the United States live at risk of female genital mutilation, a threefold increase in recent years because of the rise in immigrants from countries where it is practiced, a government study said Thursday._


> The number of U.S. women and girls who have undergone the actual procedure is unknown, however, because of a lack of reliable data, said the study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).  The report said the estimated 513,000 women and girls at risk were born or have a parent who was born in a nation where female cutting is a tradition.  Female genital mutilation remains traditional in many African countries, as well as in South Asia and the Middle East, and the World Health Organization (WHO) has estimated as many as 140 million women have been subjected to the practice.
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## flacaltenn (Jan 15, 2016)

waltky said:


> Old country customs find their way to America...
> 
> *Study: Number of US Girls, Women at Risk of Genital Mutilation Triples*
> _ January 14, 2016 — More than half a million women and girls in the United States live at risk of female genital mutilation, a threefold increase in recent years because of the rise in immigrants from countries where it is practiced, a government study said Thursday._
> ...



What a fun thought. That the US is now hosting this practice. 

Right up there on the unspoken agenda of slavery..


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## Agit8r (Jan 16, 2016)

It's good that it is going away, albeit slowly.

Maybe someday we'll be enlightened enough to give up male genital cutting here.


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## Muhammed (Jan 16, 2016)

Agit8r said:


> It's good that it is going away, albeit slowly.
> 
> Maybe someday we'll be enlightened enough to give up male genital cutting here.


Why?


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## Agit8r (Jan 16, 2016)

Muhammed said:


> Agit8r said:
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> > It's good that it is going away, albeit slowly.
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Its unnecessary and anti-individualistic.


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## Gracie (Jan 16, 2016)

Sick custom.


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## Kat (Jan 16, 2016)

Not to mention extremely painful, and a lifetime of misery these poor girls and women have.


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## Gracie (Jan 16, 2016)

Cuz women aren't supposed to feel pleasure, dontchaknow. They are only to be the vessel to fuck.


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## Kat (Jan 16, 2016)

Exactly. grr.


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## waltky (Oct 17, 2016)

Singapore still practices FGM...




*Modern Singapore Practices Ancient Ritual of Female Genital Mutilation*
_October 12, 2016  — Medical clinics in Singapore are carrying out female genital cutting on babies, according to people with first-hand knowledge, despite growing global condemnation of the practice, which world leaders have pledged to eradicate._


> The ancient ritual, more commonly associated with rural communities in a swath of African countries, is observed by most Muslim Malays in Singapore where it is legal but largely hidden, said Filzah Sumartono of women’s rights group AWARE.  Worldwide, more than 200 million girls and women are believed to have undergone female genital cutting or mutilation (FGM), according to United Nations figures.  But its existence in Singapore, a wealthy island state that prides itself on being a modern, cosmopolitan city with high levels of education, shows the challenge of tackling a practice rooted in culture, tradition and a desire to belong.
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## xyz (Oct 17, 2016)

It's a horrible practice, and it's practiced by Christians too:

Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia

There are currently campaigns against it in certain parts of Africa.


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## Kat (Oct 17, 2016)

xyz said:


> It's a horrible practice, and it's practiced by Christians too:
> 
> Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia
> 
> There are currently campaigns against it in certain parts of Africa.





From your link...




> The Christian Bible (New Testament) does not mention female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood ) or female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation).[88][89]
> 
> Christian authorities unanimously agree that FGM (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation) has no foundation in the religious texts of Christianity.[90]
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> ...



Christians do not believe in or practice FGM.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 17, 2016)

Kat said:


> xyz said:
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> > It's a horrible practice, and it's practiced by Christians too:
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It's just the usual mindless apologia from illiberal leftists.

The rule book they follow calls for them to bring up Christianity every time the subject is Islam and pretend there is no difference. Having mastered this particular conditioned response, they are probably ready for fetch or sitting up and shaking paws.


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## Coyote (Oct 17, 2016)

Kat said:


> xyz said:
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> > It's a horrible practice, and it's practiced by Christians too:
> ...



It's a legacy from pre-Islamic cultures, primarily in parts of Africa where it is strongest, and the cultural pressure is so strong it's hard to eradicate.  It needs to be wiped out like Suti was.  Even in Islam it's controversal.


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## anotherlife (Oct 17, 2016)

Female genital mutilation should be a crime, as it is a meaningless torture, but ... it is only evaluated from the masculine point of view.  From the feminine point of view, sexual pleasure is not that important by far.  It is men, not women, who can't do without sexual gratification on the genitals.  So this entire thing is just a projection.  With that said though, girls still shouldn't be cut.


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## Coyote (Oct 17, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Female genital mutilation should be a crime, as it is a meaningless torture, but ... it is only evaluated from the masculine point of view.  From the feminine point of view, sexual pleasure is not that important by far.  It is men, not women, who can't do without sexual gratification on the genitals.  So this entire thing is just a projection.  With that said though, girls still shouldn't be cut.



The irony is - quite often it's the WOMEN who insist their daughters be cut with the view that they would be less desirable or marriageable otherwise.  In order to end it, you have to persuade ENOUGH people to want to stop it in those areas


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

I am fine with female genital mutilation. 

I believe the reason why FGM is so hotly debated and circumcision is not, is due to the stigmatizing nature of the the name, "Female genital mutilation."

And yes, we have all heard the stories of barbaric FGM practices, but the same stories were no doubt once told about circumcision, or in other words, "Male genital mutilation." (MGM for short)


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

It is great that some women in these countries have the option to take away one of their means of sexual pleasure.

If I had a safe way to remove my source of physical pleasure, without severing my excretory and reproductive functions, I would probably pursue it.


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## anotherlife (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> anotherlife said:
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> > Female genital mutilation should be a crime, as it is a meaningless torture, but ... it is only evaluated from the masculine point of view.  From the feminine point of view, sexual pleasure is not that important by far.  It is men, not women, who can't do without sexual gratification on the genitals.  So this entire thing is just a projection.  With that said though, girls still shouldn't be cut.
> ...



Ethiopia is the worst, they cut off the entire funny, and nothing is left, looks like a plastic Barbie doll with nothing between her legs.  

It is true though that it eliminates the hype centric female behavior generally speaking, which may be important because females control the sex life of the species.  It is logical, that in those free for all societies, family units are the only way for economic survival, and family units can't form or stay stable without the female genital removal.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> I am fine with female genital mutilation.
> 
> I believe the reason why FGM is so hotly debated and circumcision is not, is due to the stigmatizing nature of the the name, "Female genital mutilation."
> 
> And yes, we have all heard the stories of barbaric FGM practices, but the same stories were no doubt once told about circumcision, or in other words, "Male genital mutilation." (MGM for short)


Actually, unlike circumcision done in infants, fgm does have long term health issues caused by the mutilations.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> I am fine with female genital mutilation.
> 
> I believe the reason why FGM is so hotly debated and circumcision is not, is due to the stigmatizing nature of the the name, "Female genital mutilation."
> 
> And yes, we have all heard the stories of barbaric FGM practices, but the same stories were no doubt once told about circumcision, or in other words, "Male genital mutilation." (MGM for short)



*"I am fine with female genital mutilation." 
*
Are you anti-women? You must be if you're fine with female genital mutilation.

FGM is one of the most heinous crimes, on par with something like paeodophilia, it's that wicked and vile. Any nation that allows this practice, or even condones it, should be made an International Pariah and have sanctions imposed on it.

*"I believe the reason why FGM is so hotly debated and circumcision is not, is due to the stigmatizing nature of the the name, "Female genital mutilation."
*
There is no comparison at all between FGM and male circumcision, with the former everything is removed, with the latter the foreskin is removed, to have a comparison between the two would mean that not only the foreskin is removed but pretty much the entire penis is removed.

*"And yes, we have all heard the stories of barbaric FGM practices, but the same stories were no doubt once told about circumcision, or in other words, "Male genital mutilation." (MGM for short)"
*
Male circumcision isn't male genital mutilation and also it's performed for a variety of reasons, including in teenage boys and adult males if the foreskin becomes too tight.

With FGM, the mutilation is they remove ALL of the female lower body part and then leave a tiny hole through which to urinate. Then when they get to about the age of 11 years-old and are sold into marriage by their family for a dowry to some old paedophile in a village 50 miles away from the nearest hospital and they're having a baby, many of them die from haemorrhage because they can't get them proper medical assistance in time.

So there's actually NO similarity at ALL between Female Genital Mutilation and male circumcision.


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## ogibillm (Oct 18, 2016)

Kat said:


> xyz said:
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> > It's a horrible practice, and it's practiced by Christians too:
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yes, they do.

it isn't a religious practice


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## Kat (Oct 18, 2016)

ogibillm said:


> Kat said:
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LOL Christianity is religion.
Sorry, no they do not.


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## ogibillm (Oct 18, 2016)

Kat said:


> ogibillm said:
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except yes, there absolutely are christians that practice the custom.

fgm is not limited by faith since.it is not a religious practice


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> Are you anti-women? You must be if you're fine with female genital mutilation.



It depends.

Is giving women the choice to alter their own bodies anti-women?



> Male circumcision isn't male genital mutilation and also it's performed for a variety of reasons, including in teenage boys and adult males if the foreskin becomes too tight.



Likewise, women can cut their clitoris (technically defined as FGM) to temper sex addictions.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Actually, unlike circumcision done in infants, fgm does have long term health issues caused by the mutilations.



Same with male genital mutilation.

Skin is designed to regulate heat and defend against infection, which is why it is on the dick in the first place.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

I believe the picture most people have in their heads, is of some isolated African village where women are pressured into it, and the "operation" is performed barbarically by some old witch doctor.

They are doing this relatively safely in western hospitals nowadays. You should be crusading to decrease the health risks of the procedure, instead of opposing the practice itself.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
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> > Are you anti-women? You must be if you're fine with female genital mutilation.
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*"Is giving women the choice to alter their own bodies anti-women?"

"Likewise, women can cut their clitoris (technically defined as FGM) to temper sex addictions."*

You have very bizarre thoughts about things to do with sex and body parts.

People who self-mutilate have mental health issues.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> You have very bizarre thoughts about things to do with sex and body parts.



I don't know, I'll just take that as a compliment I guess.



> People who self-mutilate have mental health issues.



Or they have practical reasons, as I have pointed out.

Again, the stigma of the practice is due to its association with the word "mutilation,"  and some of the barbaric ways it is carried out in some of the places where it goes on.

Answer my question though. Is it anti-women to allow women the liberty to alter their own bodies?


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> I believe the picture most people have in their heads, is of some isolated African village where women are pressured into it, and the "operation" is performed barbarically by some old witch doctor.
> 
> They are doing this relatively safely in western hospitals nowadays. You should be crusading to decrease the health risks of the procedure, instead of opposing the practice itself.



*"They are doing this relatively safely in western hospitals nowadays."
*
Throughout the ENTIRE Western world, Female Genital Mutilation is illegal and is punishable by arrest and trial.

You don't have a clue what you are babbling about.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Coyote said:
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> > Actually, unlike circumcision done in infants, fgm does have long term health issues caused by the mutilations.
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What specific health issues are common with circumcision?  I have to say...all the men I've known have been circumsized and none have had any health issues.

There is a vast difference between doing it to an infant and doing it to an adolescent woman.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> I believe the picture most people have in their heads, is of some isolated African village where women are pressured into it, and the "operation" is performed barbarically by some old witch doctor.
> 
> They are doing this relatively safely in western hospitals nowadays. You should be crusading to decrease the health risks of the procedure, instead of opposing the practice itself.



WHY should it be done?


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> Throughout the ENTIRE Western world, Female Genital Mutilation is illegal and is punishable by arrest and trial.



No, that is actually not true. Could you back that up for the over 50-60 westernized nations in the world? 



> You don't have a clue what you are babbling about.



We'll see.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Kat said:


> ogibillm said:
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It's a cultural practice - not a religious one.  Neither Christianity nor Islam promotes it.  Neither bans it either.  It's the remnant of a barbaric culture.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> What specific health issues are common with circumcision?



Higher risk of disease and infection.

The lack of foreskin also causes heat regulation issues, which affects excretion and ejaculation. This isn't actually a real health concern persay, but nonetheless it is a noticeable body change.



> I have to say...all the men I've known have been circumsized and none have had any health issues.



You know that argument by observation is not credible.

There are plenty of women that have had their clitoris cut, and have lived long healthy lives.



> There is a vast difference between doing it to an infant and doing it to an adolescent woman.



Not sure what this means, but I find it beside the point.

The greater question is whether women should have the liberty to alter their bodies.[/quote][/quote][/QUOTE]


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
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> > Throughout the ENTIRE Western world, Female Genital Mutilation is illegal and is punishable by arrest and trial.
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No you show me where FGM is LEGAL in the Western world, where parents can go to Western nation hospitals and ask for their daughter to have EVERYTHING removed and the doctors and medical staff to agree to that and NOT be prosecuted and lose their medical licences.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> No you show me where FGM is LEGAL in the Western world



Wherever it is not illegal. Not all westernized countries have all encompassing laws against female genital mutilation.

At any rate, they shouldn't.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
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> > Are you anti-women? You must be if you're fine with female genital mutilation.
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That's a bit of a false argument.

MOST fgm is done for cultural reasons that have nothing to do with sex addictions.  It's done as a right of passage and it is NOT done in clean anesthisized conditions like a hospital.

Female genital mutilation (FGM) frequently asked questions | UNFPA - United Nations Population Fund
_
*What instruments are used to perform FGM?*


FGM is carried out with special knives, scissors, scalpels, pieces of glass or razor blades. Anaesthetic and antiseptics are generally not used unless the procedure is carried out by medical practitioners. In communities where infibulations is practiced, girls' legs are often bound together to immobilize them for 10 - 14 days, allowing the formation of scar tissue.


*Why is FGM performed?*

In every society in which it is practiced, female genital mutilation is a manifestation of deeply entrenched gender inequality. Where it is widely practiced, FGM is supported by both men and women, usually without question, and anyone  that does not follow the norm may face condemnation, harassment and ostracism. It may be difficult for families to abandon the practice without support from the wider community. In fact, it is often practiced even when it is known to inflict harm upon girls because the perceived social benefits of the practice are deemed higher than its disadvantages.


The reasons given for practicing FGM fall generally into five categories:


*Psychosexual reasons:* FGM is carried out as a way to control women’s sexuality, which is sometimes said to be insatiable if parts of the genitalia, especially the clitoris, are not removed. It is thought to ensure virginity before marriage and fidelity afterward, and to increase male sexual pleasure.
*Sociological and cultural reasons:* FGM is seen as part of a girl’s initiation into womanhood and as an intrinsic part of a community’s cultural heritage. Sometimes myths about female genitalia (e.g., that an uncut clitoris will grow to the size of a penis, or that FGM will enhance fertility or promote child survival) perpetuate the practice.
*Hygiene and aesthetic reasons:* In some communities, the external female genitalia are considered dirty and ugly and are removed, ostensibly to promote hygiene and aesthetic appeal.
*Religious reasons:* Although FGM is not endorsed by either Islam or by Christianity, supposed religious doctrine is often used to justify the practice.
*Socio-economic factors:* In many communities, FGM is a prerequisite for marriage. Where women are largely dependent on men, economic necessity can be a major driver of the procedure. FGM sometimes is a prerequisite for the right to inherit. It may also be a major income source for practitioners.


*Is FGM required by certain religions?*

No religion promotes or condones FGM. Still, more than half of girls and women in four out of 14 countries where data is available saw FGM as a religious requirement. And although FGM is often perceived as being connected to Islam, perhaps because it is practiced among many Muslim groups, not all Islamic groups practice FGM, and many non-Islamic groups do, including some Christians, Ethiopian Jews, and followers of certain traditional African religions.


FGM is thus a cultural rather than a religious practice. In fact, many religious leaders have denounced it.

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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Kat said:
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I agree it's more a Cultural Practice, a barbaric and evil Cultural Practice that should have been abandoned pre-Middle Ages.

There should be Zero Tolerance for FGM anywhere on this planet.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> MOST fgm is done for cultural reasons that have nothing to do with sex addictions  It's done as a right of passage and it is NOT done in clean anesthisized conditions like a hospital.



Never contested that.

Nonetheless, there are practical applications to female genital mutilation, and I support a woman's right to pursue them.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
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> > No you show me where FGM is LEGAL in the Western world
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I commented:

*"No you show me where FGM is LEGAL in the Western world"*

You responded:

*"Wherever it is not illegal."
*
You commented:
*
"They are doing this relatively safely in western hospitals nowadays."
*
Again I repeat:

No you show me where FGM is LEGAL in the Western world, where parents can go to Western nation hospitals and ask for their daughter to have EVERYTHING removed and the doctors and medical staff to agree to that and NOT be prosecuted and lose their medical licences.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Coyote said:
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[/quote][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

It isn't "beside the point" - it's excrutiatingly paintful to an adult human, as is the recovery.  

The issue however, is this:  DO women really have that "liberty" if they are culturally coerced into it by family or peer pressure?  How about woman who are still minors - children - when it's done as is usually the case?

Do we allow elective procedures to be done that have significant health risks?  That is an ethical issue as well.

Female genital mutilation (FGM) frequently asked questions | UNFPA - United Nations Population Fund


_*How does FGM affect the health of women and girls?*


FGM has serious implications for the sexual and reproductive health of girls and women.


The effects of FGM depend on a number of factors, including the type performed, the expertise of the practitioner, the hygiene conditions under which it is performed, the amount of resistance and the general health condition of the girl/woman undergoing the procedure. Complications may occur in all types of FGM, but are most frequent with infibulation.

_
*Immediate complications include severe pain, shock, haemorrhage, tetanus or infection, urine retention, ulceration of the genital region and injury to adjacent tissue, wound infection, urinary infection, fever, and septicemia. Haemorrhage and infection can be severe enough to cause death.*
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*Long-term consequences include complications during childbirth,  anaemia, the formation of cysts and abscesses, keloid scar formation, damage to the urethra resulting in urinary incontinence, dyspareunia (painful sexual intercourse), sexual dysfunction, hypersensitivity of the genital area and increased risk of HIV transmission, as well as psychological effects.*
_

Infibulation, or type III FGM, *may cause complete vaginal obstruction resulting in the accumulation of menstrual flow in the vagina and uterus.* Infibulation creates a physical barrier to sexual intercourse and childbirth. An infibulated woman therefore has to undergo gradual dilation of the vaginal opening before sexual intercourse can take place. Often, infibulated women are cut open on the first night of marriage (by the husband or a circumciser) to enable the husband to be intimate with his wife. At childbirth, many women also have to be cut again because the vaginal opening is too small to allow for the passage of a baby. Infibulation is also linked to menstrual and urination disorders, recurrent bladder and urinary tract infections, fistulae and infertility. 


*What are the consequences for childbirth?*

A recent study found that, compared with women who had not been subjected to FGM, those who had undergone FGM faced a significantly greater risk of requiring a Caesarean section, an episiotomy and an extended hospital stay, and also of suffering post-partum haemorrhage.


Women who have undergone infibulation are more likely to suffer from prolonged and obstructed labour, sometimes resulting in foetal death and obstetric fistula. The infants of mothers who have undergone more extensive forms of FGM are at an increased risk of dying at birth.


Very recent estimates by WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA, The World Bank and the United Nations Population Division reveal that most of the high-FGM-prevalence countries also have high maternal mortality ratios and high numbers of maternal death. Two high-FGM-prevalence countries are among the four countries with the highest numbers of maternal death globally. Five of the high-prevalence countries have maternal mortality ratios of 550 per 100,000 live births and above.
_​


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Coyote said:
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> > MOST fgm is done for cultural reasons that have nothing to do with sex addictions  It's done as a right of passage and it is NOT done in clean anesthisized conditions like a hospital.
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Practical as in how?


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Coyote said:
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> > MOST fgm is done for cultural reasons that have nothing to do with sex addictions  It's done as a right of passage and it is NOT done in clean anesthisized conditions like a hospital.
> ...



*"Nonetheless, there are practical applications to female genital mutilation, and I support a woman's right to pursue them."
*
List them and not this foolishness of the lowering the sex drive thing, because FGM doesn't lower the sex drive, it 100% eliminates it, period.


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## defcon4 (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Onyx said:
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Circumcision has no added health benefit. It spread in the western world to increase medical expenses spreading lies about protection from STD-s. Follow the money. Also, an infant has no say so about being mutilated. It is barbarism on a high degree.


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## defcon4 (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> Coyote said:
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...and male mutilation also....


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> Onyx said:
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Onyx is saying that people have a right to mutilate themselves to alter their bodies, so if someone went to the hospital and asked them to amputate their legs, would they do this? No, that person would be sent to the Psychiatric Wing.

People who either self-mutilate or wants body parts removed have psychological issues and need professional help.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

defcon4 said:


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But it's not on par with FGM where EVERYTHING gets removed.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

The funny thing is that we have disassociated westerners calling out the customs of other cultures and religions as being barbaric, and trying to crusade on their behalf. 

Everytime I hear someone that is not Jewish complain about circumcision (in fairness, many Christians go through with it), I laugh my ass off.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

defcon4 said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
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There are cases where male circumcision is the only option, such as a foreskin that is too tight.

There are no logical or medical arguments at all for FGM.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> Onyx is saying that people have a right to mutilate themselves to alter their bodies, so if someone went to the hospital and asked them to amputate their legs, would they do this?
> 
> People who either self-mutilate or wants body parts removed have psychological issues and need professional help.



There are actual people that seek to amputate their body parts, and actual doctors that have performed these procedures. 

You fascist ***** really need to stop trying to control the voluntary actions conducted by your fellow man.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> There are no logical or medical arguments at all for FGM.



Disabling sexual pleasure for starters.

There are a lot of people that would be interested in doing that, and with women, the physical component of sexual pleasure can be tempered solely through snipping the clitoris.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
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> > Onyx is saying that people have a right to mutilate themselves to alter their bodies, so if someone went to the hospital and asked them to amputate their legs, would they do this?
> ...



*"You fascist ***** really need to stop trying to control the voluntary actions conducted by your fellow man."
*
You're just a little Troll aren't you, yes you are.


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## defcon4 (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


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I agree on that one. It is total insanity of the insane who support it...


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> *"You fascist ***** really need to stop trying to control the voluntary actions conducted by your fellow man."
> *
> You're just a little Troll aren't you, yes you are.



Nah, the trolls are the social justice warriors trying to shape society into their ideal image through violence and control


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
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> > There are no logical or medical arguments at all for FGM.
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*"Disabling sexual pleasure for starters.

There are a lot of people that would be interested in doing that."
*
Normal people don't do that though, as sex is normal, normal men don't want to do that to women.

Maybe you want to decrease these things in women because you're just crap in bed? Although with your other odd sexual interests in Necrophilia and Bestiality, I'm not sure what sort of normal woman you'd attract.

This could be a Fetish thing with you perhaps.


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## defcon4 (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> defcon4 said:
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> > Lucy Hamilton said:
> ...


I agree, but there are other ways to release tight skin than chop it off. Infants generally do not have that issue expressively manifested...


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

defcon4 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Onyx said:
> ...




It seems there are some benefits - but not enough to make a strong case either way.  There also doesn't seem to be any adverse effects.Circumcision (male) Why it's done - Mayo Clinic


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> Normal people don't do that though, as sex is normal, normal men don't want to do that to women.



Normality is a social construction, and I have no interest in trying to put members of society into a box of "ideal humans."

You seem like a Christian, so maybe you can relate to it as well. If your hands cause you to sin, then cut off your hands, remember that?  Perhaps that was not meant to be taken literally, but it certainly carries some weight if you want to look at things from a religious and moral perspective.

I bet  that line of religious scripture is actually the primary influence for why FGM is conducted.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> It seems there are some benefits - but not enough to make a strong case either way.



There are pros and cons. 

For example, the added sensitivity is amazing, but what about when it gets a little too hot?


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## defcon4 (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> defcon4 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Personal hygiene is a very important factor. In other words, keep it clean.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
> 
> 
> > Onyx is saying that people have a right to mutilate themselves to alter their bodies, so if someone went to the hospital and asked them to amputate their legs, would they do this?
> ...



I've heard of that but I think it's highly controversal - most doctors will not remove a healthy body part for ethical reasons - nor will they do elective procedures that will damage an individual's health.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

defcon4 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > defcon4 said:
> ...



Personal hygiene in general is very important, any sort of not good aroma on people is not on.


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## Onyx (Oct 18, 2016)

Coyote said:


> I've heard of that but I think it's highly controversal - most doctors will not remove a healthy body part for ethical reasons - nor will they do elective procedures that will damage an individual's health.



Yet there are doctors that will (some have been arrested since the practice is illegal), and honestly I believe they should be able to do it.

The people that went through with these surgeries wanted it to happen to them, and they felt that the benefit of living the life they wanted was worth the associated risks. I fully support their lifestyle choices, and the government ought to stay out of their way.


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## Coyote (Oct 18, 2016)

Onyx said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I've heard of that but I think it's highly controversal - most doctors will not remove a healthy body part for ethical reasons - nor will they do elective procedures that will damage an individual's health.
> ...



Have to think about that.


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## defcon4 (Oct 18, 2016)

Lucy Hamilton said:


> Personal hygiene in general is very important, any sort of not *good aroma *on people is not on.


We are not talking about wine tasting here, though. However, personal hygiene is very important for both sexes. It is more of a prevention than mutilations. And FGM is despicable and beyond barbaric. You were right when you said it was a crime.


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## Lucy Hamilton (Oct 18, 2016)

defcon4 said:


> Lucy Hamilton said:
> 
> 
> > Personal hygiene in general is very important, any sort of not *good aroma *on people is not on.
> ...



*"We are not talking about wine tasting here, though."
*
Sorry darling, for a moment I though I was in the Food and Drink Section* *

*"However, personal hygiene is very important for both sexes."
*
Yes.

*"It is more of a prevention than mutilations."
*
Yes we agree, here in Europa probably 90% of European males are not circumcised, it's only ever been a small minority on our Continent that have ever been circumcised, either for different Cultural reasons or as I mentioned before as a medical procedure where the foreskin has been too tight.

I think in America circumcision wasn't a widespread practice either until probably sometime after 1920, again a minority would be for different Cultural reasons or where the foreskin was too tight.

*"And FGM is despicable and beyond barbaric. You were right when you said it was a crime."
*
Yes and yes, we agree.


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## Kat (Oct 18, 2016)

In watching many programs on FGM even one on Oprah, and doing a lot of reading on this topic, the statement of supporting women for wanting to do this is moot. 
MOST that this is done to is at about age 8-10 years old. And those little girls are held down........screaming to the top of their lungs.

This is all BS.


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## esthermoon (Oct 19, 2016)

Female genital mutilation is so horrible! Likely for every woman in the world it's crime doing such kind of things!
Of course male genital mutilation is horrible too! 
It's incredible you can find thngs like that in 2016... so sad


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## martybegan (Oct 19, 2016)

Onyx said:


> I am fine with female genital mutilation.
> 
> I believe the reason why FGM is so hotly debated and circumcision is not, is due to the stigmatizing nature of the the name, "Female genital mutilation."
> 
> And yes, we have all heard the stories of barbaric FGM practices, but the same stories were no doubt once told about circumcision, or in other words, "Male genital mutilation." (MGM for short)



The two are not even remotely close. Male Circumcision does nothing to impact the ability nor the sensitivity of the male organ. 

Female circumcision, with the exception of the symbolic "pin prick" method, drastically reduces or even eliminates the woman's ability to feel pleasure during intercourse.


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## martybegan (Oct 19, 2016)

esthermoon said:


> Female genital mutilation is so horrible! Likely for every woman in the world it's crime doing such kind of things!
> Of course male genital mutilation is horrible too!
> It's incredible you can find thngs like that in 2016... so sad



I'm circumcised and I have no issue with male circumcision.


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## Onyx (Oct 19, 2016)

martybegan said:


> Male Circumcision does nothing to impact the ability nor the sensitivity of the male organ.



Yes it does.

I do not mean to speak from personal experience, but my most tingly spot was lying under that foreskin. 



> Female circumcision, with the exception of the symbolic "pin prick" method, drastically reduces or even eliminates the woman's ability to feel pleasure during intercourse.



So what?


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## martybegan (Oct 19, 2016)

Onyx said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Male Circumcision does nothing to impact the ability nor the sensitivity of the male organ.
> ...



My wang works just fine, and I am circumcised. Hell, it makes housekeeping easier as well.


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## Onyx (Oct 19, 2016)

martybegan said:


> My wang works just fine, and I am circumcised. Hell, it makes housekeeping easier as well.



Never accused you wang of functioning any less than perfect.


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## esthermoon (Oct 19, 2016)

martybegan said:


> esthermoon said:
> 
> 
> > Female genital mutilation is so horrible! Likely for every woman in the world it's crime doing such kind of things!
> ...


Me too! 
When I said male genital mutilation I meant castration


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## martybegan (Oct 20, 2016)

esthermoon said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > esthermoon said:
> ...



Ah, my misunderstanding. There is a small, but vocal minority in this country that call circumcision "male genital mutilation"


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## esthermoon (Oct 20, 2016)

No problem martybegan
I misunderstood often! More than you I guess!


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## defcon4 (Oct 20, 2016)

martybegan said:


> Ah, my misunderstanding. There is a small, but vocal minority in this country that call circumcision "male genital mutilation"


Chopping off a body part is mutilation even if it is not crippling, no?


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## martybegan (Oct 20, 2016)

defcon4 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, my misunderstanding. There is a small, but vocal minority in this country that call circumcision "male genital mutilation"
> ...



So removing a skin tag is mutilation? 

And considering the age most dudes are circumcised the motion is more snip than chop.

Male circumcision as done today does not impact function. Most forms of female circumcision, except for the symbolic "needle prick" method impact function.


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## defcon4 (Oct 20, 2016)

martybegan said:


> So removing a skin tag is mutilation?
> 
> And considering the age most dudes are circumcised the motion is more snip than chop.


_"We students filed into the newborn nursery to find a baby strapped spread-eagle to a plastic board on a counter top across the room." Then the doctor arrived. "The silence was soon broken by a piercing scream, the baby's reaction to having his foreskin pinched and crushed as the doctor attached the clamp to his penis. The shriek intensified when the doctor inserted an instrument between the foreskin and the glans (head of the penis), tearing the two [normally attached] structures apart. The baby started shaking his head back and forth, the only part of his body free to move, as the doctor used another clamp to crush the foreskin lengthwise. . . . The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continuous screams. . . . During the next stage of the surgery, the doctor crushed the foreskin against the circumcision instrument and then, finally, amputated it. The baby was limp, exhausted, spent. [...] 
Robert Van Howe, M.D., a Michigan pediatrician who has authored numerous studies about circumcision, describes the infant's response. "Circumcision results in not only severe pain but also an increased risk of choking and difficulty breathing. Medical studies show significant increases in heart rate and level of blood stress hormone. Some infants do not cry because they go into shock from the overwhelming pain of the surgery." According to clinical definitions and researchers' reports, circumcision is traumatic. Even when pain medication is used (local injection, the best option tested), it relieves only some of the pain, the effect is inconsistent, and it wanes before the post-operative pain does. General anesthesia is not considered safe for newborn infants.[...] 
Some of these circumcised men wish they had been given a choice at a later time rather than having it forced on them when they were too young to resist. Six medical societies in Australia and New Zealand and the British Medical Association recognize the long-term psychological risks of circumcision. [...] 
In the United States, domestic violence is the single greatest cause of injury to women. Every fifteen seconds a man beats a women. Low self-esteem can contribute to this behavior. Men low in self-esteem are more prone to jealously in their relationships. Jealously is a precipitating factor in violence toward women. Predictably, low male self-esteem, a possible effect of circumcision, correlates with a high risk of domestic violence._

Read the full article here from*: Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.*: How Male Circumcision Harms Women


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## martybegan (Oct 20, 2016)

defcon4 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > So removing a skin tag is mutilation?
> ...



Seems like a lot of artistic license in that description, and of course it is based on the writings of someone who doesn't like circumcision in the first place....

Again, I don't remember it happening, and my wang works just fine. Hygiene is easier as well.


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## defcon4 (Oct 20, 2016)




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