# Why I don't believe in God



## Delta4Embassy (Nov 9, 2015)

At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash

"At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."

What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


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## The Great Goose (Nov 9, 2015)

It doesn't hurt to believe in God.


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 9, 2015)

The Great Goose said:


> It doesn't hurt to believe in God.



Pun? Hurt them.


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## Compost (Nov 9, 2015)

Would you believe in God if nothing bad ever happened here on earth?


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 9, 2015)

Compost said:


> Would you believe in God if nothing bad ever happened here on earth?



Would believe if instead of this story it read something like, "Church van miraculously avoids certain death as if the angels themselves descended from heaven to save the day."

Instead, it's only ever stuff like this and this below,

Survivors of deadliest drunk driving crash in U.S. history still bear scars 25 years after 27 were killed in horrific bus fire

"Twenty five years ago Tuesday, 27 people were killed when a wrong-way driver slammed into a church bus and the survivors still bear the scars of that horrific night.

The crash in rural Carrollton, Kentucky, on May 14, 1988 caused the packed bus to burst into flames. Temperatures rose to 1,500 degrees within 90 seconds. "


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## tyroneweaver (Nov 9, 2015)

Your concept of God is flawed. The God of the Bible doesn't promise utopia, but he does promise that if yo follow him it will be worth it.
For the most powerful Being in the universe to restrain his power, proves what a loving God He actually is. I don't think God is a micro manager.
You talk like death is the end of it all. Life on the other side is just like here, only without the body of flesh and bones. One of the purposes of a body of flesh and bones is to experience pain, and suffering, and yes even death.
I believe in God. I don't think I'll know Him anymore when I meet him than I know Him now.
I look for God in life. Give it a try, maybe there's something to this God thing


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 9, 2015)

If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 9, 2015)

Bastard who murdered those kids blew a .24 BAC and 'He was released from prison in 1999 after serving nearly 11 years of his 17-year sentence. '

Would smile-kill him and I don't care if they execute me for it. That's a death I"d be ok with.


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## Compost (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Compost said:
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> > Would you believe in God if nothing bad ever happened here on earth?
> ...


You didn't answer my question.  Many people say they don't believe in God because He lets bad things happen.  All that says is you will consider doing God the honor of believing in Him if only He would be what YOU want Him to be.


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## tyroneweaver (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.


why don't you try this. This is your goal for today.
Just for today try and be a little kinder than you were yesterday
Try and be a little more loving than you were yesterday.
Try and be more helpful with others and a little less selfish today than you were yesterday
See how that works for ya


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## Bonzi (Nov 9, 2015)

There is a thread on this board about Godly miracles.
When they happen, people that don't believe call is luck.
When nothing happens, they blame God for not interceding.

God has or will reveal Himself to you at some point in your life.  You just have to submit... for your own good.


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## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Compost said:
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Don't blame God, the snake in the garden is to blame.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> There is a thread on this board about Godly miracles.
> When they happen, people that don't believe call is luck.
> When nothing happens, they blame God for not interceding.
> 
> God has or will reveal Himself to you at some point in your life.  You just have to submit... for your own good.


When I look at the Christian Right wing ...this is a gang that clalims to Represent God and Godliness and Jesus ...when I look at those folks and I see their vicious psychotic hatred for poor people I say to myself "why would a God allow these fools to Fly God's Flag" ":
*If I am God "I smite them":.. so people do not come to believe these Jackasses Represent me... Save "your brand" God...*
*


Ex-GOP Sen. Alan Simpson: Morality police ‘ask for Jesus while they’re diddling their secretary’
*


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## pwjohn (Nov 9, 2015)

tyroneweaver said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
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> > If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.
> ...



Good advice.


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## Bonzi (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Bonzi said:
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> > There is a thread on this board about Godly miracles.
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TS,  I wonder that too to be honest.  My husband and I have this discussion often.  We just left a church because we didn't agree with the Pastor, but, then wonder why "clowns" like Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen prosper.  I bet there are some very mature and informed Christians that have good answers for this - unfortunately, I'm not one of them.

I can only say that Satan is allowed to work on people and do his Evil in this world.  Christians (TRUE Christians) are to be the salt and light and stand out - and, unfortunately, there seems to be very few.

Just know that I do KNOW and AGREE there are many people carrying God's flag and professing to be Christians and either are not or are so misguided they are damaging God and his Gospel far more than any atheist could ever do....


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> Just know that I do KNOW and AGREE there are many people carrying God's flag and professing to be Christians and either are not or are so misguided they are damaging God and his Gospel far more than any atheist could ever do....



*and where is God while they are doing this ????*

*By the way I want to make it clear I believe in "God"..... its just not the childish immature beliefs of the organized Religions....there is simply no doubt I am a child of God of the Universe...any analysis of my blood would show the presence of Iron in my blood...Iron is born in the belly of stars and its presence shows my universal DNA,,, call God OSOTU or the Operating System of the Universe...but more familiarly is use the bane "Tetra'...which is a short version of "Tetragramaton" a name for God that means the four sounds of God's name ....OSOTU is extremely generous to me for reasons I cannot fathom..... I feel Tetra ...I feel the entity ...that is how I know I go on.... *


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## Bonzi (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Bonzi said:
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> > Just know that I do KNOW and AGREE there are many people carrying God's flag and professing to be Christians and either are not or are so misguided they are damaging God and his Gospel far more than any atheist could ever do....
> ...


 
He's here but we have free will.
That is not to say God could not have something "happen" to them, but, there is a plan on what will happen on this Earth.  Unfortunately, it WILL wax worse and worse.  In many ways.

This was not God's original plan.  He set up a paradise for us, yet Satan tempted Adam and Even and they gave in to the temptation and chose (by their own free will) to reject God's paradise.

I wish I had the answers - or even something that would make others at least CONSIDER and have a glimpse of the love of God.

My only answer is that I am not a simpleton.  I have been an Atheist.  But I have experienced God's love and mercy in my life and have seen it in others.  I give in to my decadent and selfish desires, I would probably even say I'm a back-slidden Christian at this point.  I even doubt my Christianity at times.  Many Christians would say this means I am not even saved or a Christian at all.

Either way, I believe.  God is real.  And whether it makes sense to you or not, I believe that more than anything.
But I understand why people don't.


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## tyroneweaver (Nov 9, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
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The TV church is what it is....I guess.   LOL
People say they don't believe in organized religion. I think  ya have to have some organization or you have chaos.
Good luck in you search


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## Billy_Kinetta (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



God is not a safety patrol.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

No one needs an organization to connect with OSOTU.... one is always connected to OSOTU...otherwise one would not be alive or sentient...


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## Bonzi (Nov 9, 2015)

tyroneweaver said:


> Bonzi said:
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I don't DISAGREE with organized religion.
I supposed I am more guilty of expecting too much.
Not perfection, but priority more like it.
Evangelism and Community Outreach should be the #1 goal, and, should be lead by example by the Leader of the Church (the Pastor).  By this I mean, organized efforts to be out there, Pastor leading the way, being front and center at all opportunities and knocking on doors.

I have yet to find a Church were that is the #1 priority.
Many Pastors give lip service and tell the congregation to do it, but few say "Join me this Tuesday and let's hit the streets".


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## Freewill (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.



Did God ever make that promise?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 9, 2015)

OP, like most Religiphobes, confuses "All Knowing" and "All Seeing" with "All Controlling".

The question you have to ask yerself is: Why didn't the Ancient Ascended Masters save these people? Why didn't Allah save them?


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## Freewill (Nov 9, 2015)

Why do you think that those of faith are freed from the natural laws?


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## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

Freewill said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
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> > If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.
> ...


The only thing God promises is everlasting life if you believe in his Son Jesus.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
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*Some say he is on patrol against "gays"....*


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> Freewill said:
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what if you never heard of "Jesus" I guess its tough noogies for those billions of folks..


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


You sure are obsessed with God in almost every post you make.
Which do you prefer, free will as a human being or be an animatronic figure in Disneyland?
Free will and Death was the choice we made.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.


Then people would become Christians for what reason?  The wrong reason.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Free will and Death was the choice we made.


Link ??


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> tyroneweaver said:
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One does not need a Church or a hierarchy to interact with the OSOTU...its a mirage....all one has to do is be purposefully kind and compassionate with all entities and you are in like Flynn with the Highest power...


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



That is like asking, "What is the point of the Cosmic Egg if it allows for these things?"

Why the hell do you think it is God's role to prevent people from the consequences of human stupidity and evil?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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For someone so insecure you need to mock Jesus you need to study more.
It's all right there in Genesis.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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Genesis Chapter 3
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> One does not need a Church or a hierarchy to interact with the OSOTU...its a mirage....all one has to do is be purposefully kind and compassionate with all entities and you are in like Flynn with the Highest power...



You know you are a complete ass hat, dont you?


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


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I don't need to do anything specially anything someone like you thinks I need... I do not mock Jesus the ones who "Mock Jesus" are the Republ;ican Right wing that takes everything in the Bible Literally* EXCEPT...the part in which Jesus is demanding Love for the poor and to sell possessions and give it to the poor...that part is translated by you all to read" kill the free shit army"*


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


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 God wrote that ? you got to be kidding....God blames the wife and says because of that generations of humans  must suffer horribly....* sound Psycho to me ... that link does not work for me dude you have to take that link on faith *


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
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> > One does not need a Church or a hierarchy to interact with the OSOTU...its a mirage....all one has to do is be purposefully kind and compassionate with all entities and you are in like Flynn with the Highest power...
> ...


No  I am not ...the Bible says I am God....
Jesus answered them,* "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?John 10:34*


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## Mac1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

Faith provides millions of decent people with strength, support and answers.

Those who feel compelled to hate them tell us quite a bit about themselves.
.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Mac1958 said:


> Faith provides millions of decent people with strength, support and answers.
> 
> Those who feel compelled to hate them tell us quite a bit about themselves.
> .


I do not hate anyone ...faith in wrong things can kill you...
*Teen beaten to death at reclusive N.Y. church wanted out .*


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Mac1958 said:


> Faith provides millions of decent people with strength, support and answers.
> 
> Those who feel compelled to hate them tell us quite a bit about themselves.
> .


Just one problem, the answers, and all the rest, are lies.  Living a lie is not recommended but most do anyway.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
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> > What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.
> ...


The Problem of Evil is one thing Christianity cannot ever solve.  Their God could only fairly be described as a monster.

There is a solution however, don't worry about Hell, you're already there...


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## Mac1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Mac1958 said:
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> > Faith provides millions of decent people with strength, support and answers.
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And that's fine with me.  If it's a placebo, hey, whatever works, as long as they stay out of my face with it, and most do.

But the vitriol I see leveled against them is pretty interesting.
.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Mac1958 said:


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If they kept the lies to themselves there would be little of that, but instead they want to make converts to the lies, which they believe makes them more true, but it does not.  A lie is the same whether believed by one or billions...


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Genesis Chapter 3
> 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
> 
> “Cursed is the ground because of you;
> ...


Paradise lost, only there never was one.  Just a Jewish fairy-tale for why life here is hellish...


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## Mac1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Mac1958 said:
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Most Christians aren't like that.

I can think of one religion, however, that does include an element that currently and regularly uses terrorism, beheadings, slaughter and clear threats to advance their agenda, and it ain't Christianity.

So someone who thinks that Jesus is coming or that they need to go to Church on Sundays doesn't concern me much, especially in comparison.
.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Mac1958 said:


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Forest for the trees, Mac.  Evil peas in an evil pod, no different.


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## Mac1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


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I know you equate the two, nothing I can do about that.

I'm just not bothered by Christianity, as long as it stays in its lane.
.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Mac1958 said:


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It would be helpful if it would do that, and the same with all the rest...


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Mac1958 said:


> So someone who thinks that Jesus is coming or that they need to go to Church on Sundays doesn't concern me much, especially in comparison.
> .


The violence in the Muslin country is reflective of their feeling their lands are occupied and that there is a war against their Religion..........their lands are in fact occupied ...they are after all a target of our aggression...

This guy calls himself a Catholic and a Christians but he spouses and sponsors politics for the destruction of the Social safety net...he is  savage feral caricature of a Christian ...this 
*Paul Ryan, 'Zombie-Eyed Granny Starver'*


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

*Hecklers Cheer Burning Of Tennessee Mosque*

*THE LARGEST MOSQUE IN EUROPE: Was Burning Down ...Sep 26, 2015 -
*


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## Silhouette (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


 Who said it was God who caused their van to crash?  There seems to be quite a "presence" allowed in this day and age that has nothing to do with God.  In the last days it was foretold that God would take a vacation of sorts and let the Devil run rampant; as the final test of mankind.  Just sayin'.  Don't be so quick to blame this on God.  Naturally the Devil would be thrilled if a church van crashed and killed a bunch of Christians.

The Devil would also be thrilled about gay marriage, global climate change, wars, famine and pestulance.  Maybe you've got the wrong suspect bro.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

As far as I know God created the Devil similar to us creating Al Qaeda.........


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

Funny how billions don't believe in Mohammed, Buddha, Hindu gods or atheism but don't feel the need to mock  those beliefs.  
You know why?
Jews and Christians are not insecure in their beliefs like those in this thread who feel the need to mock only Judeo Christian beliefs. And before you give the usual 'I mock all faiths' show me a thread started mocking other beliefs. 

Know why they are insecure and need to only attack Judeo Christianity?
The one true God.


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## 2aguy (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.




I'm not sure that you see things from the right perspective.  For me…death is just a way to move between this world and the next one…as far as we know….if God does exist and what we are led to believe is true…though their deaths are tragic to us because we feel for their suffering, and will miss them from our lives…they are in the next place of existence.  So no matter how much we may suffer here in this world, and no matter how painful the transition is to the next life…..we are told there is an eternity on the other side…so even if we have 70 years of suffering here…..there may very well be an eternity of non suffering once we cross over.  So if you are God and you have created this world…it is only a temporary place for your creations…right?  And the way in is birth and the way out is death and you are going back to where we came from originally.  

In my religion class in college, the professor pointed out that when a kid skins his knee…for the kid the pain is incredible and shocking….but for us as adults we understand how temporary and minor the pain is….now put that in the context of a being who created all of this…….from the single cell organisms to the places in the universe we don't even know about yet…..knowing too that death just brings people back to him…and it is temporary…..

For me that makes death unpleasant but not an indictment of God…...


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## Billy_Kinetta (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
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You mistake God for a Democrat.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> You mistake God for a Democrat.


 You mistake God for someone who hates the poor..........


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> The one true God.


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## chikenwing (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


Yet just yesterday,you started a thread claiming God lied in a bible scripture,get som,e help,or at least try and be consistent.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


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You mistakenly think so.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


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Speaking of insecure people who only feel the urge to mock Judeo Christianity.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Yeah I insecure ...I am on a jihad.......Unnnnnnbelievable....


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


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Like I said, only Jesus are you worried about.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Hello ... I live here in the US where the Jesus brigades are trying and wanting a Theocracy ......people who think they represent God's will on Earth...People like that are dangerous .....and they are here ...


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Funny how billions don't believe in Mohammed, Buddha, Hindu gods or atheism but don't feel the need to mock  those beliefs.
> You know why?
> Jews and Christians are not insecure in their beliefs like those in this thread who feel the need to mock only Judeo Christian beliefs. And before you give the usual 'I mock all faiths' show me a thread started mocking other beliefs.
> 
> ...


Can't think of a faith I haven't mocked.  And BTW, Christians don't pray to the same God as the Jews, but the Muslims do...


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


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Bubble World paranoid.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


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More of the naive.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Nope, nothing of the kind.  Learn the faiths, yours and those of others.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2015)

I'll never understand why people who don't believe in something spend time trying to convince you it doesn't exist.


Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



How do you know he never prevents this sort of thing? I mean, if Jesus was being interviewed on CNN explaining why he prevented a tragedy, then that whole free-will thing just wouldn't really exist would it?


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## 2aguy (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


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And atheists are just as if not more dangerous…..100 million murdered and they aren't done yet...


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

The Great Goose said:


> It doesn't hurt to believe in God.


It doesn't have to hurt.

What about the guy who kills himself for Allah? That has to hurt for a second.

And according to Christians that person is going to burn in hell for all eternity for believing in the wrong God so you tell me is that going to hurt?


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Oh yeah I am not the one clinging to Guns and the Church... I own no gun and I will not own a gun....I do not belong to any organized religion .... I am walking here strutting confidently farther and further into the future
a future that for me will be


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

2aguy said:


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Are you referring to abortions? Keep in mind America is a very Christian nation and we get a lot of abortions so don't put all those abortions are not knowing that most of the people getting them are Christian


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

I am Happy like a Fool
when everything "looks out"
I am going to take it in and win


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


From a hater who claims Jews and Christians don't have the same God. Real theologian.


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## saintmichaeldefendthem (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.


He does. I've seen it.


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## 2aguy (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...




Christians who have spent at least 10-12 years in democrat controlled schools, watching democrat controlled television programs and movies which make them believe that they aren't murdering a human being but simply getting rid of useless skin cells…….


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Compost said:
> 
> 
> > Would you believe in God if nothing bad ever happened here on earth?
> ...


I have a relative suffering from Alzheimer's disease. They believed in God and one of their sons believes in God and her husband believes in God so you tell me why a god would give somebody such a horrible affliction? And she's got it good at least you did for 60 years. I consider her lucky in the game of life when I think about all the young children who died of cancer. No God would create a earth like that if he had if he did then why call him God? Why worship Him? It's just ridiculous human beings are so arrogant and scared of death that they have come up with this grand illusion that we are special in this universe when we are such a small animal and such a small planet circling a very small son in a very very big universe


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## Billy_Kinetta (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> I live here in the US where the Jesus brigades are trying and wanting a Theocracy



As opposed to the Democrats who want the totalitarian rule of an all-powerful government.

What's the difference between you - a supposed American political party (cue Laff-Trak) - and they, who don't even approach such numbers or influence.


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## 2aguy (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...




I am referring to atheists who murdered 100 million people starting in the 1920s……in Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia, Cuba…..and everywhere else the left has taken control


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

saintmichaeldefendthem said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.
> ...


I've seen it doesn't qualify as proof. That's just magical thinking


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## 2aguy (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Compost said:
> ...




You have a small understanding of the larger universe in which we live…..if there is more beyond our 70 years….no matter how bad it is now, it gets better after……

We are told we are created in God's image……do you keep your children from all harm……do you lock them in a room and not let them outside where the incredible dangers exist…every day…do you let them cross the street? …..is that responsible to let them cross the street?   Do you let them interact with other people, knowing about disease the way we do…or evil people?  Aren't you just as irresponsible as you claim God is by letting your children outside your home? 

And we are given the tools to address the problems we face….we have made advances in medicine, science and all other fields that help us address those illnesses….on our own…with his help….and we learn from each situation…and when we lose someone, they are simply crossing over to his place in the universe, they aren't lost…..

YOu have to look at the bigger picture…….


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

2aguy said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...


I have seen estimates of 160 million murdered by their own athiest governments in the past century. 
Mere statistic according to athiest Stalin.


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## saintmichaeldefendthem (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> saintmichaeldefendthem said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...


By that standard, testimony given in court isn't proof either. Thankfully, this world doesn't operate by your idiotic standards. Eyewitness accounts actually mean something to intelligent (meaning not you) people.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Its best to probably worship all Gods...they seem sensitive to being under worshiped...best not to take any chances on this


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Its best to probably worship all Gods...they seem sensitive to being under worshiped...best not to take any chances on this


So insecure you feel the need to mock Christianity every waking hour because you know He is the real deal and you can't bring yourself to simply admit it.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
> 
> 
> > Its best to probably worship all Gods...they seem sensitive to being under worshiped...best not to take any chances on this
> ...


 LOL If you only knew yourself as well as you think you know me..............If Jesus is the real deal how come you Jesus folks hate the poor...?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...


Yeah, Christians hate the poor. 
Bubble World Naive.


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Yeah, Christians hate the poor.
> Bubble World Naive.


*Hating the Poor but Loving Jesus? - Red Letter Christians*
*Inside The Sickness That Makes Republicans Hate Poor ..
10 Ways Conservatives Don't Act Anything Like Christians
If You Are Poor, It's Because God Hates Your Guts
Do Conservative Christians Care About the Poor?

Let me know if you want more ..K
*


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

Y


TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, Christians hate the poor.
> ...


Yeah, the jungles of Africa and Asia are filled with atheists helping the poor.


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

2aguy said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...


But those Germans and Italians were Christians.


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

saintmichaeldefendthem said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > saintmichaeldefendthem said:
> ...



Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problems for belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated itwould not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as unknown natural processes or agents could still be at work.

Most alleged miracles can be explained as statistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result of magical thinking, misattribution, credulity, hearsay and anecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves, not reliable or definitive forms of proof for such extraordinary claims.

Divine intervention claims most often concern systems and events for which we have poor predictive capabilities, for example, weather, sports, health and social/economic interactions. Such claims are rarely made in relation to those things we can accurately predict and test e.g. the motion of celestial bodies, boiling point of water and pull of gravity. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance.

Note: Theists often fail to adequately apportion blame when claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflicting if it existed. See also: Euthyphro dilemma, Confirmation bias,Cherry Picking.

See also: Argument from Miracles, Why won’t god heal amputees? [Video],Spontaneous Remission of Disease, The problem with anecdotes (a must watch).

_“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” _– Carl Sagan

_“Elite athletes make first place, strange shapes appear on toast and some people narrowly escape death, but amputated limbs never regrow, mountains never move and food never spontaneously appears in front of the hundreds of children that starve to death each hour.”_ – Anonymous


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
> 
> 
> > Its best to probably worship all Gods...they seem sensitive to being under worshiped...best not to take any chances on this
> ...


If we believed that for one second we would admit it.  We would fall down and serve.  But we don't, so we don't.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Yeah, the jungles of Africa and Asia are filled with atheists helping the poor.


*The Political world of America is full of Christians who want to humiliate and offend the poor...want them to pee in a cup to get food...people who label feeding the poor *with Food stamp as being the same as feeding feral animals....
Evil Tea Party Senate Candidate Compares Poor*You know the story  of the bread and fishes in the Bible is of how an irresponsible evil Messiah fed wild feral people....*


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the jungles of Africa and Asia are filled with atheists helping the poor.
> ...


So not to upset prices, Republicans would rather farmers throw away excess food than send it to soup kitchens.  Then they go to church on Sunday.  Hypocrites.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> No  I am not ...the Bible says I am God....
> Jesus answered them,* "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?John 10:34*



Another example of a libtad that has no concept of interpreting literature according to hermeneutical standards.

Jesus said we were 'gods' as in comparing humanity to the highest ideals of polytheistic godlings.

He was not saying we are Creators of the Universe, moron.


----------



## JimBowie1958 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the jungles of Africa and Asia are filled with atheists helping the poor.
> ...


----------



## jc456 (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


it isn't his intentions of getting involved in humans life cycles.  He has given all humans the abilities and what you, I or others do with them is purely up to us.  some people play football, basketball, rocket scientist, poor person.  Everyone has the same possibilities after inception.  

A friend of my wife's just lost a three year old son to cancer and she put out a blog during the illness on the progress of the disease in her son up to his death. And afterward stated that the natural beauty of god is the way her son's illness brought thousands together and felt it was her son's purpose on the earth was to have the masses get together.  It was really revealing.


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


*If Jesus was to preach what He preached in Galilee,
They would lay poor Jesus in His grave.*
Jesus Christ
Words and Music by Woody Guthrie

Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land
A hard-working man and brave
*He said to the rich, "Give your money to the poor,"*
*But they laid Jesus Christ in His grave*

CHORUS:
Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand
His followers true and brave
One dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Has laid Jesus Christ in His Grave
*
He went to the preacher, He went to the sheriff
He told them all the same
"Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the poor,"*
*And they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.*


----------



## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...


If some understood the Bible, Gods word, they would know homosexuality is against Gods word. God loves the sinner not the sin, homosexuality is sin.


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## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Free will and Death was the choice we made.
> ...


Genesis


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

*How Right-Wing One Percenters Are Bankrolling a New Mega-Assault on Working Americans*


----------



## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Genesis ? that is against all odds
Hell there is a Petition against Phil Collins

Petition launched to stop Phil Collins' musical comeback
Consequence of Sound‎-
A _petition_ was recently launched demanding that “_Phil Collins
_


----------



## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the jungles of Africa and Asia are filled with atheists helping the poor.
> ...


I am a Christian and believe in helping the poor. Difference is the government taking my tax dollars to give out welfare is not charity. If they are getting state aid they need to be drug tested. Every job I have had I am subject to random drug testing. Stop the crybaby act.


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## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...


Idiot


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Just render to Caesar was is Caesar...you do not say a peep about giving your money to kill people worldwide....

Its no wonder I find myself feeling a certain sympathy......


----------



## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...


Like I said, you are an idiot.


----------



## toxicmedia (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


Some people are made comfortable by the existence of an interventional power greater than themselves, and who am I to poopoo that? So I don't

IMO, the concepts of God, Karma, and if it's easier to mentally digest...just what happens on a daily basis...shouldn't come with specifications.

Dangerous cults and hostile religions aside...I don't get the big deal about people practicing their own spiritual encapsulations of all that


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> *How Right-Wing One Percenters Are Bankrolling a New Mega-Assault on Working Americans*


Too bad 14 of the top 15 political sonars favor the Dem party.


----------



## 2aguy (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...




No….the ones who gave the orders and executed the orders were atheists……the ones who developed the plan, built the camps and the gas chambers…atheists…...


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...


Good grief. The anti Christian theologian never heard of the book of Genesis.


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## Freewill (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Compost said:
> ...



What make you think God gave him that infliction?


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Freewill said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...


I don't think there is a god so clearly you are not understanding my point.  

The fact we have things like Alzheimers and Meteors hitting the planet prove no intelligent designer.


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## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

Freewill said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...





sealybobo said:


> Freewill said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


You are wrong


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> Freewill said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Prove it...


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



I doubt anyone cares what you believe.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

[/QUOTE]
The veggies are the ones on stage...


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> From a hater who claims Jews and Christians don't have the same God. Real theologian.


That's correct, they do not.  The Muslims and the Jews have the same God, as do nontrinitarian Christians, but there are damn few of those.


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > From a hater who claims Jews and Christians don't have the same God. Real theologian.
> ...



More Bubble World naive. 
Educate yourself and not from your hater websites.


----------



## Freewill (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Freewill said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Why do you say that?  Do you have any understand of nature and the natural laws?  And if you don't believe in God then why to you argue against God?


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


If you can't make a valid argument then just don't comment.


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Freewill said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Freewill said:
> ...


I argue with people who claim God spoke to their ancestors because I believe that's a lie.

I debate people who believe in God because because I think the notion is holding us back.

And simply I don't believe. I use to so I have the advantage of knowing you are magical and wishful thinking and cognitive dissonance.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Nov 9, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Why I don't believe in God



Aside from the fact the notion is completely absurd?


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> Freewill said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


With that kind of reasoning and logic why didn't I see it sooner? Lol

I watch religious shows for kids. You are lying to and brainwashing those kids. If they asked you to prove your claims you couldn't. So those kids should be calling bullshit.

Kindergarten math is just as true for adults as it is for kids. But those religious stories, only a child should swallow. Or a gullible adult.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


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## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Why I don't believe in God
> ...


With that kind of open mind of course it's absurd to you.


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > Freewill said:
> ...


Yet you're so troubled by the concept of God you take the time to attack the concept again and again.


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Why I don't believe in God
> ...


This is exactly why my very non scientific father says. I can destroy every argument he makes but he doesn't want to hear what science says. He says science is stupid. How could all this be without a God.

While that's a good philosophical question it is no argument. Now combine that with religious brainwashing no wonder.

But as humans we have to evolve out of this ancient superstitious belief. Regodamn dickulous.


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...


Yup. We are far from cured of this. Look at Isis. Look how bush used religion to manipulate us. Religion is a wedge issue now.

So I'm not surprised people who believe in invisible men also believed wmd's were in Iraq or bush won the 2000 election.

So I attack the source of the stupid.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



You've got it backwards.  What I mean is the idea of God is completely absurd.


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...


If you were 100% sure you wouldn't be here arguing the points you are making.

Oh, by the way, theists think using guilt will work on atheists but we only respond to facts logic and reasoning. When you try to get personal or make claims about us like we are angry, that only further confirms just how wrong you are.

You believe because you want to believe. Same way a kid believes in Santa only you never grow up.


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> ...


Oops


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 9, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...


Imagine how mad you would be if you were the only sober guy in the room and no one will give you their keys. That's atheism.


----------



## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Freewill said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


You are wrong.


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Nov 9, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


It's your right to believe what you want.
God still loves you.


----------



## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

Atheists are so stupid. If you don't believe in God why do you spend so much time arguing against him? Just denying the truth is all you are doing.


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> Atheists are so stupid. If you don't believe in God why do you spend so much time arguing against him? Just denying the truth is all you are doing.


God is the tooth fairly, with rain and thunder.  Entirely for children...


----------



## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > Atheists are so stupid. If you don't believe in God why do you spend so much time arguing against him? Just denying the truth is all you are doing.
> ...


Wrong as you always are.


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...


Not at all.  Your God is a candy machine, that takes prayers.  Just a ticket to Heaven, of very little importance, obviously...


----------



## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


It isn't heaven you will be going. Yes, you are wrong.


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...


Should you have a rational argument, do tell?  As far as your Lord and Savior is concerned, he likes me much more than you.  Even your nickname says you are dead fucking wrong...


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## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


You are right on ONE thing, OUR Lord and Savior likes you better than I do. I am not wrong, you are.


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...


He likes me much better than you.  I respect the crazy fucker, you don't even know him...


----------



## blackhawk (Nov 9, 2015)

A faith of convenience is no faith at all remember in the world of religion there is also the devil who has the power to cause evil in the world like a driver crashing into a church van just as god has the power to say have a plane land safely in the Hudson river saving all the passangers and crew.


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## Indeependent (Nov 9, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...



Read my lips...PMH is an atheist.  You're not.  I'm not.  You aren't going to change him.  I'm not going to change him.


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> AmericanFirst1 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Atheists, like Theists, are morons.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst1 said:
> ...



So I'm a moron.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Probably without equal, minus AF1.


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## Indeependent (Nov 9, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


I have no peers.  They try.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 9, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Have it your way...


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 10, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Freewill said:
> ...


Finally somebody has really done a great job proving to me that God does exist you just did it what a great response you gave thank you I'm going to run to church now


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## sealybobo (Nov 10, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


And it is your right to believe whatever you want I still love you. And that's a lot better than what you're giving me because I'm actually a real person who exists


----------



## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



You're thinking of God as a Supreme Person. 

God is not a Supreme Person. This is a common misconception, particularly from people who lack spiritual faith in God. We wonder how God can forsake us. In fact, this is the reason many people lose spiritual faith to begin with. God didn't save my mother... God didn't protect my child... But God is not a Supreme Person. 

We all have a soul connected with God and our souls are experiencing a physical reality in material bodies here on Earth. You soul is everlasting, it is beyond the constraints of physical time which is a concept we created to measure. God can always use your soul if it's any good. Your soul may go to another person here on Earth or maybe it goes in a matrix of levels, dimensions and existences we're not aware of? I can't answer what happens to your soul when it leaves your physical body here but it seems apparent your soul is being guided toward love and good for a reason. 

One thing your soul should be instinctively aware of is that physical beings suffer. It is inevitable and part of being physical. We can't escape death, we're all going to die. Some of us may get 80-90 years or more, if we're lucky. Others may not even make it out of the womb. It has nothing to do with God's use of our soul.


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Hello ... I live here in the US where the Jesus brigades are trying and wanting a Theocracy ......people who think they represent God's will on Earth...People like that are dangerous .....and they are here ...



The Constitution doesn't allow us to be a theocracy, even if we want to be.  

You want to restrict constitutional rights of Christians to speak politically or have a say in policies. That is an intolerant behavior and also, unconstitutional.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 10, 2015)

Boss said:


> The Constitution doesn't allow us to be a theocracy, even if we want to be.
> 
> You want to restrict constitutional rights of Christians to speak politically or have a say in policies. That is an intolerant behavior and also, unconstitutional.


yeah yeah its the "libruls" ...hey can you inform Carson of what you just posted ...he seems unaware
*Ben Carson Wants to Censor Speech on College Campuses*
*Ben Carson comforts conservatives: I will only police liberal ...
*


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

Funny x *1*
sealybobo

??? You thought I was being funny, silly boob?


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > The Constitution doesn't allow us to be a theocracy, even if we want to be.
> ...



Honestly.... I don't want to see ANY MORE LINKS on Carson or what Carson has said.  I feel that I am comfortable with Carson and you won't change my mind with media lies. *I'm done with it...* no more. I will not click the links or read the lies and misrepresentations of this fine man.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 10, 2015)

Boss said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


*Its not about you bro*...its not about the Constitution which the Right winger want to make secondary to the Bible..Its about not giving  the "unhinged" access to the Nuclear arsenal....what could go wrong eh 
*Old video shows Ben Carson thinks there's a New World Order out to get America. *

This one's been floating around online for a while, but resurfaced on social media yesterday: *A video of Ben Carson going after the New World Order which vaguely has to do with atheists and socialists trying to destroy America.* As an atheist and a socialist, I can assure Mr. Carson our goal is not to destroy America, but rather the people who run it.


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)




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## AmericanFirst1 (Nov 10, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...


Liar.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 10, 2015)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > TyroneSlothrop said:
> ...


Only in your delusional mind of hatred.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Nov 10, 2015)

AmericanFirst1 said:


> TyroneSlothrop said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Hysteric


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## sealybobo (Nov 10, 2015)

Boss said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> ...


What makes you different from a tortoise or elephant?


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> What makes you different from a tortoise or elephant?



Wow, silly boob... with questions like that you'll never make it out of 'special' class. Do you honestly not know the difference between a tortoise, elephant and human? More to the point, do you honestly not see a difference in humans and any other animal? 

Are you talking about the soul? I'm not sure that animals have souls but if they do, God connects with them through their soul in His own way. As I said, your soul is everlasting... if you blow your soul's chances as a human, maybe God will put your soul into a tortoise next go-around and you can live 150 years dodging predators and avoiding being turned into soup? Maybe this will give you better appreciation of your soul for the next time you have an opportunity to be a higher life form?  Or maybe, God will simply pluck your soul from his grid and toss you into the flaming trash can? I guess it depends on whether He thinks your soul is redeemable... what do you think, boob? Is your soul redeemable?


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## Indeependent (Nov 10, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



The ability to abstract.


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> The ability to abstract.



Sorry... WRONG!


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## sealybobo (Nov 10, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


A tardigrade can survive the vaccuum of space and there more of them than us. Maybe they are gods chosen one.

Humans are such funny animals. So smart and yet so dumb. So superstitious. Wishful thinking. It's a way of coping with death.

I think a real God will reward my intelligence, if there was one.


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## Indeependent (Nov 10, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > The ability to abstract.
> ...



Wow!  You bombed on that one!
Try looking up the definition of Abstract.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 10, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


No right or wrong answer, but do you hope you are wrong?


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



*Abstract:* existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.

You have evidence of an elephant demonstrating the existence in thought of an idea not having physical existence and creating an expression of that thought in a painting. 

So maybe "Abstract" wasn't the word you meant to use?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 10, 2015)

Abstract.





Still, I do like elephant art...


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 10, 2015)

If he paints this:




I'm going to eat more peanuts...


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## Boss (Nov 10, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Tardigrades cannot survive in the vacuum of space. Sorry, they just can't. 
Humans are funny animals, some of them believe in magic universes and life that pop out of nothingness for no reason or purpose. It's a small number but we love them anyway. 

Why do you think we need to cope with death? Why does no other life form seem to be afflicted with the handicap of having to create a security blanket to cope with death? Does the belief in something we made up from imagination make death better to cope with? Why doesn't this work to solve all our other problems? Why can't we just imagine ourselves well when we're sick? Or imagine ourselves in Tahiti to cope with our feeling sick? I wonder if I could imagine you into another universe?


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## Indeependent (Nov 10, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



I never saw an elephant painting a tree when it wasn't looking at the tree.
Personally, it wouldn't bother me if there was no difference between animals and humans.
All that matters to me is that my religion dictates I treat all people and animals with respect.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



So what kind of criteria are you now applying to the elephant? He has to paint something from sheer imagination that he's never seen before? "Abstract" now takes on this murky meaning that you can define however you please, as best as I can tell. 

You have an elephant thinking an abstract thought... _Hmmm, I am going to paint a picture of a tree with pink flowers and an elephant beneath it...._ then taking a brush and paint and bringing that thought to life on canvas. If this is not an example of what you meant by "abstract thought" you need to clarify what it is. No one can chase around a loose-end interpretation that you get to change as you please.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...



I actually double checked the definition of Abstract before posting.
Animals are known to do amazingly humanlike tasks in any given environment, but not abstract.You got it wrong.
Chill out.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Well post a definition of what you mean by "abstract" and we'll go from there. It's pointless for me to try and show you examples of something when I don't how you're defining it. 

In a nutshell, the only difference in humans is human spirituality.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


What is our purpose?


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Do you eat meat?


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


How does this prove a god exists?


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## Slyhunter (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


to ripen our souls so the great soul eater, also known as God, can devour us while we thrive in ecstasy.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


To serve our fellow mankind and let them know that all of their sins in life can be forgiven by simply believing in Jesus.  Plenty of reasons to when you look at the evidence honestly.

Face it, if there is no God there is no such thing as evil.  We are just biological byproducts of some universal mass explosion.

You pick which scenario you like better.


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## SassyIrishLass (Nov 11, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



Blame free will, not God. You have no earthly clue what you're babbling about and are just seeking attention


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Nov 11, 2015)

"Why I don't believe in God"

It depends on what is meant by 'god.'

'God' clearly exists as an idea, a concept created by man, a metaphor for the collective good of humankind.

But 'god' doesn't exist as perceived by theists.

There is no omnipotent extraterrestrial deity that hears prayers, intercedes on the behalf of mortals, and issues edicts of religious dogma all must obey, lest transgressors are subject to some sort of postmortem 'punishment' – that contrivance of 'god' clearly doesn't exist.


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## SassyIrishLass (Nov 11, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Why I don't believe in God"
> 
> It depends on what is meant by 'god.'
> 
> ...



And you can prove this? Do so, be specific


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


That's your problem!  Doesn't matter what I or you LIKE.  Reality is all I'm interested in.

I choose We are just biological byproducts of some universal mass explosion.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Tardigrades cannot survive in the vacuum of space. Sorry, they just can't.
> Humans are funny animals, some of them believe in magic universes and life that pop out of nothingness for no reason or purpose. It's a small number but we love them anyway.
> 
> Why do you think we need to cope with death? Why does no other life form seem to be afflicted with the handicap of having to create a security blanket to cope with death? Does the belief in something we made up from imagination make death better to cope with? Why doesn't this work to solve all our other problems? Why can't we just imagine ourselves well when we're sick? Or imagine ourselves in Tahiti to cope with our feeling sick? I wonder if I could imagine you into another universe?


There are plenty of reasons to believe in a Creator, for example these reasons are what led Aristotle and his followers to believe in a Creator that created time and the universe, while the rest of the polytheistic godlings were made in space and time. Later philosophers like Thomas Aquinas built on those ideas using reason and evidence to further promote the rationality of believing in the Creator. Are you familiar with the arguments that these people gave for their beliefs?

Are you familiar with the recorded cases of Near Death Experiences, where people perceive things that would have been impossible for them to perceive from their positions on the operating table, often with their eyes taped shut and their ears plugged?

I am not going to bother going into all that now, as I have a real life and have to return to it, but there is plenty of evidence if one cares to look. This is why atheism is such a fringe belief system, outnumbered in the West by people who believe in Big Foot and that the moon landings were faked. Including those outside the West and the numbers are even more lopsided.

If atheism is so rational, then why cant they convince more people? Most atheists are just people who go along because the circle of friends they have are all atheists and they cannot hold up to the thinnest scrutiny.

Atheism is a complete joke today, not at all worthy of the mantle of Bertrand Russel or even token respect any more.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Slyhunter said:


> to ripen our souls so the great soul eater, also known as God, can devour us while we thrive in ecstasy.


Close but our souls do not cease to exist when we unite with the Creator. We are made perfect and continue to exist in an ecstacy that surpasses anything we can imagine in this life.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

SassyIrishLass said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> ...


None of us have a clue.  It isn't us who suggest we have it all figured out.

And there seems to be two arguments for god.  One is the generic, "there must be god" argument and then there's the "god visited our ancestors 2000 years ago of course he's real" argument.  

You are the one who doesn't have a clue.  Just like a little muslim woman in Afganistan doesn't.  But like you she thinks she has all the answers.  Its all in the koran.  

I


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > to ripen our souls so the great soul eater, also known as God, can devour us while we thrive in ecstasy.
> ...


If that isn't wishful thinking what is?


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## SassyIrishLass (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...



I know it's free will. You babble much and expect to be taken serious, you need to change that


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > to ripen our souls so the great soul eater, also known as God, can devour us while we thrive in ecstasy.
> ...





JimBowie1958 said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Tardigrades cannot survive in the vacuum of space. Sorry, they just can't.
> ...


Atheism is one of the fastest growing segments of our population.  

Why can't we convince someone who's been brainwashed from age 1-18?  Kind of hard when religion got a 18 year head start brainwashing these people.  

Why can't you convert more Muslims to Christianity?  Because they know your story is full of shit.  Why can't they convert you?  Because you know their story is full of shit.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

SassyIrishLass said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...


You think I babble much?  Ever read the bible?  LOL.  Yet you take that seriously.  

Lets talk about babbling.

On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Nov 11, 2015)

"There are plenty of reasons to believe in a Creator"

All of which are subjective, personal, and completely devoid of objective, documented evidence, fact, or merit.

Which is fine, religion is supposed to be personal and subjective; indeed, the last thing theists would want is proof 'god' exists.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Good for you.
Care to share with us delusional folks where it says chaos naturally evolves into order?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "There are plenty of reasons to believe in a Creator"
> 
> All of which are subjective, personal, and completely devoid of objective, documented evidence, fact, or merit.
> 
> Which is fine, religion is supposed to be personal and subjective; indeed, the last thing theists would want is proof 'god' exists.


Well that would certainly end 'faith" alright.  The other likely outcome, the real God wouldn't give a fuck what happened to you, didn't know you would be here actually.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Why I don't believe in God"
> 
> It depends on what is meant by 'god.'
> 
> ...


I've seen things that would make you curl up in a fetal position and wet your pants.
You're totally dishonest to say you have 100% knowledge in an unknowable issue.

Fact is, you're operating on faith.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> And there seems to be two arguments for god.  One is the generic, "there must be god" argument and then there's the "god visited our ancestors 2000 years ago of course he's real" argument.
> You are the one who doesn't have a clue.  Just like a little muslim woman in Afganistan doesn't.  But like you she thinks she has all the answers.  Its all in the koran.
> I





SassyIrishLass said:


> I know it's free will. You babble much and expect to be taken serious, you need to change that


Only the most completely ignorant fool would say that there is only two arguments for the existence of God.

I think you are banging your head against the wall.  Atheists these days are just too stupid to follow any complexity in an argument and have no interest to anyway.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> I've seen things that would make you curl up in a fetal position and wet your pants.
> You're totally dishonest to say you have 100% knowledge in an unknowable issue.
> 
> Fact is, you're operating on faith.



Clayton is operating on ignorance and stupidity like he always does. Dont give him so much credit.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > And there seems to be two arguments for god.  One is the generic, "there must be god" argument and then there's the "god visited our ancestors 2000 years ago of course he's real" argument.
> ...


Atheists and Theists are both dumb as dog shit.  There is only one rational position, God is unknown.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


God told us about Him.  
You can argue the assembled books are fiction.
But statistical odds and human nature says it is not very likely fiction.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > JimBowie1958 said:
> ...


There isn't a holy book on the planet that isn't wholly fiction.  That's how they work.  Logos and Mythos, and you mistake one for the other. Here's am example (Eve did not yell out, Hey, Adam, where have Cain and Abel gotten to now?).

Strong's Concordance
adam: man, mankind
Original Word: אָדָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: adam
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-dawm')
Short Definition: man

Strong's Hebrew: 120. אָדָם (adam) -- man, mankind


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > JimBowie1958 said:
> ...



God told us about what He expects from US, not about HIM.
God is unknowable.
In fact, God doesn't need us...at all.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > "There are plenty of reasons to believe in a Creator"
> ...


We know that 'god' as perceived by theists is a creation of man, as is religion and other manifestations of faith.

There never was a 'god,' there is no 'god' now – one cannot not believe in something that never existed to begin with.

The mistake theists make is to assume 'god' to be a 'fact,' where those free from faith 'reject' that 'fact.'

This position is false, as theism is the aberration, 'god' its errant contrivance, where those free from faith aren't 'rejecting “god,”' but are instead acknowledging the fact that there is no 'god' which warrants such faith and belief.

Theists also make the mistake of attempting to propagate an appeal to ignorance fallacy – or the 'you can never know for sure' fallacy, that because there is no evidence 'god' doesn't exist, then it's perfectly 'reasonable' to assume it does exist.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> God told us about what He expects from US, not about HIM.
> God is unknowable.
> In fact, God doesn't need us...at all.



God is not 100% knowable, but He is also omniscient and is capable of explaining Himself to the degree that we need to understand Him.

And, true, God does not need us, nor does He need anything at all.

But he _desires _us and _wants _us to worship Him.

that is all that is necessary as He isnt exactly on a budget of some sort and can do whatever He wants.


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## SassyIrishLass (Nov 11, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...



Once again, prove this. So far you have blabbered your OPINION and haven't proved any of it. You're big on talk and short on proof


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > God told us about what He expects from US, not about HIM.
> ...


Any being that has such a large ego it wants to be worshiped, I'll pass.  It can make these for that (which is what many of you are):


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > God told us about what He expects from US, not about HIM.
> ...



http://www.amazon.com/The-Soul-Life-Complete-Ha-chayyim/dp/061569991X&tag=ff0d01-20
Based heavily on the Zohar, written in the 1700's, a brilliant, ultra documented explanation to dispel any mistaken notion's of God's relationship to His creation.
I truly feel sorry for any sincerely spiritual Christian who can't speak or read Hebrew.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> We know that 'god' as perceived by theists is a creation of man, as is religion and other manifestations of faith.



You know nothing of the sort, you lying fuck. You  pretend it so because you cannot stand the thought that someone is going to judge the pathetic life you have lived, idiot, and as judged by your comments here, you have had a completely purposeless and vain life at that.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> There never was a 'god,' there is no 'god' now – one cannot not believe in something that never existed to begin with.


There is a Creator and you tremble in your sleepless nights at the thought.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The mistake theists make is to assume 'god' to be a 'fact,' where those free from faith 'reject' that 'fact.'



No one is assuming anything, idiot.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This position is false, as theism is the aberration, 'god' its errant contrivance, where those free from faith aren't 'rejecting “god,”' but are instead acknowledging the fact that there is no 'god' which warrants such faith and belief.



Atheist are fringe loons of humanity who are so self centered that they cannot abid ethe thought of being compelled to be responsible for the moral choices of their amoral lives.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Theists also make the mistake of attempting to propagate an appeal to ignorance fallacy – or the 'you can never know for sure' fallacy, that because there is no evidence 'god' doesn't exist, then it's perfectly 'reasonable' to assume it does exist.



No one says that, idiot.

I love reading posts like yours Clayton, as it affirms in my mind what idiots atheists truly are.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Since it's a Jewish faith, for Jews, that can be an issue...


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



I guess if the worship consists of treating all creatures the way you want God to treat you, well, fine with me.
It doesn't mean man has succeeded.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> http://www.amazon.com/The-Soul-Life-Complete-Ha-chayyim/dp/061569991X&tag=ff0d01-20
> Based heavily on the Zohar, written in the 1700's, a brilliant, ultra documented explanation to dispel any mistaken notion's of God's relationship to His creation.
> I truly feel sorry for any sincerely spiritual Christian who can't speak or read Hebrew.


So your response an appeal to authority of a Hebrew mystic? 

Roflmao, no thank you, I dont recognise either the mans authority nor the rationality of Truths uncovered in mysticism, though it can be of use to the person who experienced it, it is not persuasive to those who do not.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > JimBowie1958 said:
> ...



Actually not.
Adam through Yaakov's children were not Jews.
God has commandments, Noachide laws, for all mankind.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> I guess if the worship consists of treating all creatures the way you want God to treat you, well, fine with me.
> It doesn't mean man has succeeded.


It consists of Treating all human beings as one would want to be treated and worshipping God as He deserves most of all.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Soul-Life-Complete-Ha-chayyim/dp/061569991X&tag=ff0d01-20
> ...



Either one is spiritual or not.
This book is a concrete explanation of God's breathing the breathe of life into Adam and the mechanics of how man influences the spiritual entities by his actions.
The question is...why DID God breathe the of life specifically into Adam?


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I guess if the worship consists of treating all creatures the way you want God to treat you, well, fine with me.
> ...



I'm just wondering how YOU know this?


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Either one is spiritual or not.
> This book is a concrete explanation of God's breathing the breathe of life into Adam and the mechanics of how man influences the spiritual entities by his actions.
> The question is...why DID God breathe the of life specifically into Adam?



He gave Adam his soul when He did so. The early concept of soul was closely tied to posessing ones breath.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> I'm just wondering how YOU know this?


From a religious authority that I do recognize.  And also internally, I believe it because it has the ring of truth to my mind.

Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your *God*.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...



*# 15 Complexity/Order proves god exists.*
The Teleological argument, or Argument from Design, is a non sequitur. Complexity does not imply design and does not prove the existence of a god. Even if design could be established we cannot conclude anything about the nature of the designer (Aliens?). Furthermore, many biological systems have obvious defects consistent with the predictions of evolution by means of natural selection.

The appearance of complexity and order in the universe is the result of spontaneous self-organization and pattern formation, caused by chaotic feedback between simple physical laws and rules. All the complexity of the universe, all its apparent richness,even life itself, arises from simple, mindless rules repeated over and over again for billions of years. Current scientific theories are able to clearly explain how complexity and order arise in physical systems. Any lack of understanding does not imply ‘god’.

Big Bang > Cosmic Inflation > Big Bang Nucleosynthesis > Stellar Formation > Galaxy Formation > Stellar Nucleosynthesis > Solar System Formation > Earth Formation >Abiogenesis > Evolution

Note: Crystallization is one example of how matter can readily self-organize into complex, ordered shapes and structures eg. Bismuth.

See also: The Story of Everything by Carl Sagan (a must watch), BBC – The Secret Life of Chaos (a must watch), BBC – The Cell: Spark of Life (a must watch), Self-Organisation, Evolution, The Watchmaker Analogy, Ultimate 747 gambit, Junkyard Tornado [2] (Hoyle’s fallacy).

Additionally: The laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, Evolution of the Eye, Chromosome 2,Bacterial Flagellum, TalkOrigins Index to Creationist Claims.

_“The universe is huge and old and rare things happen all the time, including life.”_ – Lawrence Krauss

*Spiral patterns in Galaxies, Cyclones, Whirlpools, Broccoli, Shells, BZ Reactions, Subatomic Particles, Fractals and Archimedes Diagram. All explainable by natural processes.

*


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Either one is spiritual or not.
> ...



God created a connection between Himself and Free Will man.
That connection, to maintain the equilibrium of the Physical Universe, is explained in the book.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Are you talking about believing in generic god or are you talking about believing the Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, etc?  Because when it comes to the idea that god visited, I'm an atheists.  But when it comes to the existence of a creator, I'm an agnostic atheist.  It doesn't seem like there is a god/creator.  From an intelligent mind, it seems like humans made that up to deal with death and the unknown.  Superstitious.  So I lean towards not believing but you are right, the only logical position is agnostic.  

The only way to know there is no god is for you to be a god yourself.


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## SassyIrishLass (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > JimBowie1958 said:
> ...



I'm talking about you providing proof of your opinion. Cease with the mumbo jumbo, it's worthless. Now, put up or shut up


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

SassyIrishLass said:


> I'm talking about you providing proof of your opinion. Cease with the mumbo jumbo, it's worthless. Now, put up or shut up


But have you considered the possibility that 'mumbo jumbo' is all they got?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...


The fact anyone spends so much time and effort in threads denying God says you want to believe and need something answered for you to take the next step.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Maybe he's just fucking tired of all this nonsense known as religion?  I sure as hell am, and he can have faith in blue teapots dancing on the moon if he wishes, it's as valid as what you got...


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
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Yeah, the millions acting like Mother Teresa and helping the poor and needy is so pathetic it must be stopped.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Yeah, the millions acting like Mother Teresa and helping the poor and needy is so pathetic it must be stopped.


Millions is right, like two million, out of two_ billion, _hence the damn problem.  If the Christians acted like Jesus I could mostly give them a pass.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the millions acting like Mother Teresa and helping the poor and needy is so pathetic it must be stopped.
> ...


So by your estimate 2 million Christians acting like Mother Teresa helping the poor.
How many atheists?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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Since they don't depend on God to fix things, a good percentage more I would bet but it doesn't matter a damn now does it, they aren't supposed to obey the teachings of Jesus, which nearly all "Christian" completely ignore.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
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So you know 2 million Christians are out living their lives like Mother Teresa, but not a clue as to how many atheists.  I bet it's about 10, and I bet you think that too.

And you expose your lack of understanding again.  I know of no one who volunteers their time because Jesus orders it.  We do it because we've been changed and have a blast doing it.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
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You should be doing that, and much, much more because Jesus told you to, and you don't, hence the problem I have with most Christians.  That and the fact that what they believe is total fucking nonsense.  Jesus was a loon, but an interesting loon BTW.  A farmer, not a carpenter, that was daddy, who was a stone mason or possibly a cabinet maker.  Not much wood around in Palestine.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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You know nothing about me or what I do, so you make up things to fit your hatred picture. 
Fact remains millions are out there acting like Mother Teresa because they were changed by Jesus and I think the world is a lot better off for it versus what atheism has done to people.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
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The world would be a better place if the Christians, who don't, acted like Jesus, when he wasn't in his full-on loon mode that is...


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## Toro (Nov 11, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



How do you know He doesn't?  Perhaps God has saved thousands of people from dying in vans, and it didn't get announced on the 6 o'clock news.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Nobody claims Christians are even close to perfect, you're again fabricating things to support your beliefs.  In the last month I've talked to hundreds of Christians. Some I wanted to slap silly. But then I remember me 15 years ago.  It's a process of change.

So what's your favorite Jesus loon moment?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Have to go with the obvious, realizing that he was dead wrong about God while hanging from the cross dying.  His God was a lie, as they all are...

45Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 47And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."…


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

That's an easy one.  Scripture numbering system was not created until centuries after Christ. So guess how a Rabbi told people what to read - he would quote the first part.  Psalm 22 describes the crucifixion of Jesus.  Very appropriate, eh?

Psalm 22:1-25 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?Why are you so far from saving me,so far from my cries of anguish? My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,by night, but I find no rest. Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;you are the one Israel praises. In you our ancestors put their trust;they trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were saved;in you they trusted and were not put to shame. But I am a worm and not a man,scorned by everyone, despised by the people. All who see me mock me;they hurl insults, shaking their heads. “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,“let the Lord rescue him.Let him deliver him,since he delights in him.” Yet you brought me out of the womb;you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast. From birth I was cast on you;from my mother’s womb you have been my God. Do not be far from me,for trouble is nearand there is no one to help. Many bulls surround me;strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. Roaring lions that tear their preyopen their mouths wide against me. I am poured out like water,and all my bones are out of joint.My heart has turned to wax;it has melted within me. My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs surround me,a pack of villains encircles me;they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display;people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among themand cast lots for my garment. But you, Lord, do not be far from me.You are my strength; come quickly to help me. Deliver me from the sword,my precious life from the power of the dogs. Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;save me from the horns of the wild oxen. I will declare your name to my people;in the assembly I will praise you. You who fear the Lord, praise him!All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! For he has not despised or scornedthe suffering of the afflicted one;he has not hidden his face from himbut has listened to his cry for help. From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > God told us about what He expects from US, not about HIM.
> ...


Now think of all the different ways people understand him.  Ask 100 people what god is and you'll get 100 different ideas.  

How do you know he desires us and wants us to worship him?  That isn't obvious to me so why is it a given for you?  Because you read it in a book?  Because a preacher told you?


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



I observe from the behavior of my seniors that they are living the type of life I admire.
I seek from them how to go about walking in their footsteps.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

SassyIrishLass said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


I'm not making any extraordinary claims that require proof.  Goes something like this.  You say you can fly or turn invisible just by wishing it.  I say you are full of shit.  You're asking me to prove you can't fly or become invisible.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Is your issue proselytation?


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > JimBowie1958 said:
> ...


If they are good people, you should copy that.  

How many christians, muslims or jews are assholes though?  Raising asshole christians, muslims and jews.  

Ignorance is bliss.  

Your parents could have been wonderful people but not the sharpest tools in the shed.  

I see my brother believes and goes to church and has a wonderful life.  Is it because he goes to church?  That probably has something to do with him being a good person.  Does that mean god is real?  Nope!


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...


I wouldn't have nearly the problem I have with the lie that a god exists if it weren't for religious people no.  That's true.  But even if they were all wonderful, that doesn't make god any more or less real.

God didn't talk to Moses.  The Old Testament is CLEARLY written by ancient MEN, not God.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



I proactively avoid assholes.
As I posted, I observe their behavior and learn how to go about reinforcing that behavior.
I have no respect for Observant Jewish assholes.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Is there anything that would make you have faith that Jesus is real?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Is there anything that would make you have faith that Jesus is real?


He could return I suppose?  He's slightly overdue, roughly 2,000 years.

And most of us like Jesus a whole lot more than the people who supposedly follow him...


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there anything that would make you have faith that Jesus is real?
> ...


So what are other loony moments for Jesus?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there anything that would make you have faith that Jesus is real?
> ...


Oh, and you personally seeing Jesus may or may not be enough.  Remember what people did to him.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Chasing money-changers around, cursing fig trees, sending pigs to their deaths, rejecting his family, and of course, believing that he was the Messiah.  The Jews, and his family, thought he was nuts, for a good damn reason, he was.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


I'm far better than most and he is always welcome here.  He liked wine and moral people.  I have no problems with that.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...



God would have to convince me.

Or do you mean that Jesus was a real person?  He may have been and they certainly embellished the stories.  He's the ultimate martyr.  

No, I don't think there is any evidence that will ever be presented to me that will convince me that the Jesus myth is real.  

And the whole "you'll go to hell" stuff is cult like to me.  Hearing it even more confirms my beliefs that it's all just man made up stuff.  It all comes down to this.  Yes it is all amazing that we are here.  Seems too amazing to be just by chance.  I understand all the reasons why humans believe in gods, and that we are special to these gods.  I get it!  But the more we learn, the more ridiculous the god concept gets.  

Its like you are asking me i'll ever be able to believe in Santa again.  No, sorry, no matter how many times I watch Miracle on 34th street, I still don't believe in God.  I also don't believe in Devils, demons, witches, ghosts, angels.

And if I'm ever out in the ocean or in a fox hole, I may start believing in god.  But the sealybobo who isn't scared knows that's just wishful thinking praying out for a god to help.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there anything that would make you have faith that Jesus is real?
> ...


Yea.  If such a guy existed, I'd follow him too.  Sorta like a MLK or Ghandi type.  But you know the GOP would call him a hippy liberal.  Today they have taken him over.  Turns out Jesus loves Capitalism.  Unregulated free market capitalism too.  He hates socialism and especially progressives.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Very good point.  If the people who saw him didn't convert, why did the people who later just heard about him convert?  For example, my ignorant Greek ancestors who were worshipping Zeus then fell for that Jesus crap.  Didn't they ask for evidence?  Of course they didn't!  Do Americans today ask for proof?  Nope!  They just swallow whatever their parents and preachers tell them.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


You don't mind people taking advantage of others to get rich?  That was the money changers.
The fig tree is about exactly what you don't like - people saying they are Christians yet bear no fruit.
When in Israel I go to the cliff the people of Nazareth were going to toss him off of when he read the prophecy insinuating he was the messiah.  The mob took him there and it says he simply walked away thru the mob.  Great story.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Like many, I came to faith by researching the evidence.  My entire career has been in science, and almost 20 years ago I saw something I couldn't explain.  Still took me a few years.  I'd be a Jew, Muslim, Hindu or whatever if they had more evidence.

People don't come to faith because they are fooled.  Anyone who honestly wants to know the truth will seek it and end up in the same boat I'm in.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> People don't come to faith because they are fooled.


If only.  Faith for most is nothing more than what you were raised with.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > People don't come to faith because they are fooled.
> ...


Not true at all.  Christianity is sweeping thru Asia and the Middle East like a wildfire.  These people have zero background in Christianity. I'm from an agnostic home and was agnostic until I did my homework.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


The vast majority of the faithful were raised as faithful.  Just because a faith appeals to fools. slaves, and children cannot be helped.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> That's an easy one.  Scripture numbering system was not created until centuries after Christ. So guess how a Rabbi told people what to read - he would quote the first part.  Psalm 22 describes the crucifixion of Jesus.  Very appropriate, eh?
> 
> Psalm 22:1-25 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?Why are you so far from saving me,so far from my cries of anguish? My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,by night, but I find no rest. Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;you are the one Israel praises. In you our ancestors put their trust;they trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were saved;in you they trusted and were not put to shame. But I am a worm and not a man,scorned by everyone, despised by the people. All who see me mock me;they hurl insults, shaking their heads. “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,“let the Lord rescue him.Let him deliver him,since he delights in him.” Yet you brought me out of the womb;you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast. From birth I was cast on you;from my mother’s womb you have been my God. Do not be far from me,for trouble is nearand there is no one to help. Many bulls surround me;strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. Roaring lions that tear their preyopen their mouths wide against me. I am poured out like water,and all my bones are out of joint.My heart has turned to wax;it has melted within me. My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs surround me,a pack of villains encircles me;they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display;people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among themand cast lots for my garment. But you, Lord, do not be far from me.You are my strength; come quickly to help me. Deliver me from the sword,my precious life from the power of the dogs. Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;save me from the horns of the wild oxen. I will declare your name to my people;in the assembly I will praise you. You who fear the Lord, praise him!All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! For he has not despised or scornedthe suffering of the afflicted one;he has not hidden his face from himbut has listened to his cry for help. From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.



Tell us, who is Lord in the above?

And if Jesus is God, who was he crying out to to save him, himself?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Is that your hang up?  You bow to no one?
Even someone who died so you may live?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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No one died so I could live.  That was my parents fucking, and my mom not aborting.

As for bowing down to you God, he's entirely unworthy, not that I would bow down to any being, which I wouldn't.

Q for you, why can't you stand on your own two feet and take it, whatever it is, like a man?  Fucking big daddy complex, and just as childish...


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > That's an easy one.  Scripture numbering system was not created until centuries after Christ. So guess how a Rabbi told people what to read - he would quote the first part.  Psalm 22 describes the crucifixion of Jesus.  Very appropriate, eh?
> ...


Good question.  No one understands the trinity very well.  
Let me ask you this - why and how was his crucifixion written down centuries before crucifixion was invented?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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It wasn't.

And do answer the questions above.  No one knows doesn't cut it but then you'd have to admit something, Jesus didn't think himself God, he thought himself the Messiah of the Jews.  That makes Christianity polytheistic, which it is unless you are a nontrinitarian Christian, the only even partly valid kind who understand the trinity is utter bullshit, even Jesus would have agreed as he had a Lord, the Lord God...


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Because I want to be a better human being.  
Like billions before me, my life is much different than it was BC.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 

Who was "us"?


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## Bonzi (Nov 11, 2015)

The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God.

Jesus’ words in John 10:30 are, “I and the Father are one.”  You  need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this reason.

The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,”

John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy as the Mosaic Law commanded


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Life is better now that you live a lie like so many others.  Got it.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


God and his sycophants, that he made in his own image because his ego is that fucking big apparently.

And, humans weren't made in the image of God, there are two of us for starters.  That utter nonsense, just the human ego at work.

Tell us, logically, did Adam have a penis?  If he did what exactly was he supposed to fuck with it, the sheep?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Maybe.  Only a delusional fool would state they are always 100% certain in Gods existence or nonexistence. But as my wife and friends attest, I am a much better person than I was BC.
So I'm happy in my so called delusion.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God.
> 
> Jesus’ words in John 10:30 are, “I and the Father are one.”  You  need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this reason.
> 
> ...


The reason he never said "I am God" is pretty simple, he didn't believe that, and John is crap, stick with the synoptic Gospels please.

BTW, the Jesus cult was just one of many Messiah cults around then, and not even a very good one.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> So I'm happy in my so called delusion.


Nuff said.  They lie works, religion in a nutshell.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Ever read about the 2 guys who discovered the human genome?  Both were atheists. By the end of their work one says we came from extraterrestrial aliens, the other says God did it.
The evidence is there, you just have to look.
Always wanted to ask the one guy where the extraterrestrial aliens came from.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > So I'm happy in my so called delusion.
> ...


So what's the downside of my faith that disturbs you so much?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> The evidence is there, you just have to look.
> Always wanted to ask the one guy where the extraterrestrial aliens came from.


A well-known problem in science, people go looking for something and well what do you know, they find it.  When God finds me then it will count, otherwise it's just subjectivity at work. but I know your faith, which is why I rejected it as nonsense.

And those aliens, if they believe in God as well, and think of God as you do, which one of you is the one made in the image of God?  You the tree-dweller stuck on a spinning rock, on the ones who came here in a flying saucer?


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



*How does this prove a god exists?*

*sigh* 

How many times does someone have to tell you this? If a God could be proved to exist we wouldn't be having this conversation. I certainly never have claimed that I could prove God exists. Do you come here in hopes that one day someone will post proof that God exists? I can save you an enormous amount of time. 

The main problem with "prove god exists" is all three of those words are subjective and ambiguous. Proof is what you are willing to accept evidence for and believe. To "prove" something to you requires 1) for you to believe it's possible and 2) for you to accept the evidence available. There is no other way to "prove" things. Next is "god" and what is meant by that word. Is it an invisible person? Is it a spirit? Is it metaphysical energy? And finally, what do you mean by "exist"?  In a physical sense, how can a spiritual thing exist? God is by definition, not a physical being. Therefore, not physically existent. 

We were having a conversation about what is the difference between humans and elephants or tortoises. The one unique thing that distinguishes humans from all other life is human spirituality. Some will argue that spirituality is just our way of coping with death but it's actually the other way around, our fears of death and contemplation of afterlife are byproducts of our spiritual awareness. That's exactly why this "coping with death" thing isn't found anywhere else in nature.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


It's a lie, and people of a lie are dangerous.  They do things based upon lies, not rational thought.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > The evidence is there, you just have to look.
> ...



They were not looking for God.  They hit a brick wall of evidence and were forced to change their beliefs.  Same evidence is there for all.  Some just chose to pretend they never saw it.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Well that is true.  Highly irrational of me spending hundreds of hours and big $ helping people who I will likely never see again, let alone get repaid.  And yes, I think Satan considers such behavior as dangerous.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


If there was a permanent cloud over every city that said "God Exists" people would just shrug it off as a natural event and the basis why the concept of God was created.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Well that is true.  Highly irrational of me spending hundreds of hours and big $ helping people who I will likely never see again, let alone get repaid.  And yes, I think Satan considers such behavior as dangerous.


What did Jesus tell you to do, keep to yourself and horde your possessions?

Don't pat yourself on the back for doing as your Savior taught.  He taught about that as well eh?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


If you want to prove God exists you'd better do a whole lot better than that.  When he stops by for a drink, what the fuck else does he have to do, then we're on our way.  Got more than a few thing to ask that SOB, and he'd better bring his A-game and a better than average single-male whiskey.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Their subjective experiences, and religion always is, changes nothing.

Tell me, if your faith is a lie, and dead is dead, no afterlife, any problems with that?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > Well that is true.  Highly irrational of me spending hundreds of hours and big $ helping people who I will likely never see again, let alone get repaid.  And yes, I think Satan considers such behavior as dangerous.
> ...


So which is it, I'm dangerous for helping the poor or because I changed and started helping the poor?
Which is the threat you're worried about?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
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If we cease to exist, that means we are no more important than a worm.  Do I have a problem with that?  Yeah.  We all know that's a lie, humans are something special.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Humans cannot prove there's a God.


PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Out of curiosity, were any of your descendants religious?
Do you consider them fools?
If so, do you consider yourself a superior genetic anomaly?
These questions are serious, not sarcastic.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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LOL.  No, they aren't.  Just because you are the top of evolutionary cycle currently, very questionable but that depends on the criteria used, doesn't mean you have a soul or any right to anything else, ike an afterlife.  You want to beat death so Jesus is your ticket to Heaven and you cling to it.  News for you, you are just another animal who made up god and gods to explain a  universe you aren't even remotely equipped to understand or survive in.  God didn't create man, man created God, and absolutely nothing in all of human history shows anything different.

If God is at work in the world, there sure as hell isn't any evidence of it.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Humans cannot prove there's a God.
> 
> 
> PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Anyone who believes in God or gods is a moron, period.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Let me explain his hangup (and probably the hangup of most anti-Christians)...

They realize how all belief in God requires faith and cannot be physically proved. This allows them to disbelieve and challenge others to "prove" God, which they know, can't be done. Now the thing about freeing yourself from belief in God is that you also free yourself from any moral responsibility. This allows people like PaintFumes to live the decadent lifestyle he enjoys without guilt or accountability.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
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You're dangerous because you will do, sometimes, what your holy book says to without using the supposedly rational brain you claim God gave you.  If you did actually do what Jesus taught, I'd give you a pass.  He might have been a loon but for the most part, he wasn't a selfish blind asshole like most Americans.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Humans cannot prove there's a God.
> ...



So you are a superior genetic anomaly.
How often did your Bible thumping father beat the Devil out of you?


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Wrong...See post 289.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Anyone who believes in God or gods is a moron, period.



That's about 95% of the human population. The 5% minority are Nihilists who believe in nothing.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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My life is far more moral than the average "Christian", and I don't fly planes into buildings or burn witches because God said to.

Most humans are believers because:

1. They were raised that way.
2. They see design and think Designer.
3. Death scares the crap out of them and therefore they want a way out.

God is the easy answer.  If you accept it you go off and make babies and plow the fields, all most people will ever do that matters...


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Post 289 doesn't prove me wrong it proves me right.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who believes in God or gods is a moron, period.
> ...


Nope.  Your numbers are wrong, look them up.  And what I believe in has been thought out, rationally, so it therefore doesn't fuck the place up like like those with faith.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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You keep looking at people to judge God, no wonder you struggle.  Look at what Jesus did, taught and why he taught it.

Got to go, off to meet with a pastor about an orphanage in Southeast Asia.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



I was just a bit more explicit.
He's one abused hombre.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> My life is far more moral than the average "Christian".



No it's not, you're just a really good liar because you have no moral conscience. Your so-called "morals" center around self-interest because there is no other valid reason for them. If it serves your self interests to do moral good, you will. If it doesn't, you probably won't. And if it's counter to your self interests, you certainly won't.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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No, when I judge God, at least your God, I'd crucify the SOB myself, take him down, burn him, and do it again.  Any God that thinks this is a valid place for even the most remotely decent, intelligent, and conscious human would be a monster that would defy description.

And here we are right back to the Problem of Evil, why most people don't believe in God.  Ditheism gets around that by the way, this_ is_ Hell created by that God and you are trying your best to get to the nicer one.  The God of the Bible, not him, he's a monster.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Jews Muslims and Hindu say the exact same thing.  If you were born in Iran, you'd be a Muslim.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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And like many, I came to Atheism by researching the evidence.  Anyone who wants to know the truth will seek it and end up in the same boat I am.  Or they can just continue with wishful thinking.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > My life is far more moral than the average "Christian".
> ...


What you believe is entirely incorrect.  Find an Ayn Rand kid, the place is loaded with them, those are your selfish immoral infants.  Ask them if they would run into the street to save a toddler?  Nope, unless it would pay off for them and they knew it.  Trust me on this one, I've asked, many times.  They are as self-centered as a babe in arms, and just as moral...


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> I was just a bit more explicit.
> He's one abused hombre.



I think YOU'RE an abused hombre.  I think something happened in your life to turn you against religion. I can't tell you what that event was, I don't know your story. At some point, you decided to abandon your spirituality and declare war on religion. I pray that you will one day again find your spiritual connection and walk upright with your fellow humans.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Ha ha!

Islam is the fastest growing religion in USA

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

And why aren't Mormon's buying your story?  They have their own twist.  Is your sect of Christianity growing in Utah?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I was just a bit more explicit.
> ...


Religion is what turns people off on religion, and more specifically, the actions and words of the faithful.

Someone trying to understand Jesus reading what gets posted here wouldn't walk away from Jesus, they would run for their very lives.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


If I believed that old wives tale I would bow.  But its not even close to being a believable story.  I remember even as a little kid I had a problem with the stories my bible thumping aunt and grandmother told me.  Didn't make any sense then but I sort of went along because no one wants to deny god, right?  But that takes believing god exists.  If we don't believe, why would we bow to anyone?  I bow and kiss my priests hand out of respect.  I don't tell him I think his boss is a fairytale.  But that is what I believe.  And I believe humans believing in god has held us back thousands of years.  It continues to hold us back.  How can we evolve when we are clinging to ancient superstitions?  I don't ever expect you to see it.  I expect you will die happily a Christian.  But I doubt your great grand kids will still be doing that.  But over in the Arab world, they will.

My ancient ancestors used to bow to Zeus.  He scared the shit out of them long before Moses came down from a mountain with 10 rules and a lie that god talked to him.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



We're not talking about Ayn Rand kids, we're talking about you. But you see, your natural reaction was to deflect what I said and point a finger at someone else. It tells me I hit a nerve there... got a little too close to the truth. Besides, wasn't Ayn Rand agnostic?


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I was just a bit more explicit.
> ...



I have read many of your condescending remarks about people in the Economics and Politics threads, so don't even try to claim a moral ground.
As for myself, you will never attain a fraction of the awareness of God's presence as I possess.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > My life is far more moral than the average "Christian".
> ...


Same with Christians.  Remember the shooter asked people if they were christians and if they said yes he shot them?  Do you know how many said no they were not christians?  So they would deny Jesus if it would save their mortal life.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


She was an atheist, a typical idiot and hypocrite, but they love her anyway.  And what you believe about me is total BS, so I told who here does believe that way.  Fight when them, not me.  I would probably find you about as moral as the neighbor's cows.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Most Christians don't have anything like real faith.  If they did they wouldn't so fucking afraid of death, they'd embrace it.  Continue to live here or in a paradise?  Yeah, tough choice.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Heaven or Hell without nuance IS frightening.
It's also very Communistic.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I was just a bit more explicit.
> ...


Just because we are smart enough to figure out humans made up god doesn't make us angry or bitter.

I'm not mad at god because someone I love died.  I just don't believe in god.  I think it is ridiculous and ignorant and arrogant.  We are just one animal on one little planet circling one small star.  There are billions of other planets with life on them.  We just happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one.  And we are just beginning to understand who we are.  If the 14 billion years was put on a year calendar, we would account for about 30 seconds of the entire year.  That means we are not special.  In fact we are just Johnny come latelys.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Boss isn't even a Christian.  He only believes in generic god.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Boss claims to be "Spiritual" but CONSTANTLY comes off as a non-Spiritual, egoistic, arrogant ass in the Economics and Politics threads.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


I don't consider this hell.  I know it can turn to hell in a blink of an eye but I think I was very lucky to have lived 44 years so far and counting.

Now my mom who has Alzheimers or my dad taking care of her, they are in hell.  BUT, they had great lives for 70 years.  Hard to complain about that when little kids die every day.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Help for you, what comes the source returns to the source.  Either you and Hitler will be in Heaven together, or you will both be dust, pick one?


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Well of course you would.. when you are your own God and can define your own sense of morals and morality, you can find justification for all your prejudices and judgments. That's the main problem I have with you godless pricks, you think you have the moral authority to judge me.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


The Problem of Evil, in a nutshell.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Jews don't subscribe to the Heaven/Hell paradigm.
Your soul is what you make of it in this life.
Hitler is suffering from an eternal sense of embarrassment now that's he in a world of Truth and devoid of ego.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> That's the main problem I have with you godless pricks, you think you have the moral authority to judge me.


We do, and you don't make the cut...


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss isn't even a Christian.  He only believes in generic god.


So the believers aren't going to see him as moral either then.  He's pretty well fucked...


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

I don't believe in God because it is just too ridiculous a concept for me, and there are many contradictions.  I just cannot believe it.  There are some times, of course, where I have my doubts about my beliefs, but for the most part I have to say that I find the concept of a "God" or "gods" to be quite silly.  No offense, that's just me.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

In my opinion, it is a man made and made up concept because human beings have a need to "explain" everything.  We are curious by nature and that is only normal that when there is ignorance, we would attribute some things to a "higher power" or to "gods."  I think a lot of this stems from our fear of the unknown, and especially dying and death.  It's very comforting to believe that you will see your deceased loved ones again and be reunited with them in a "heaven" type of place.  I don't like to take that away from others.  I guess if that helps some people deal with loss or their eventual demise, then it's all good.  I do not like when they try to guilt other people or even threaten them (with hell, etc) to believe or to live like they do though.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> In my opinion, it is a man made and made up concept because human beings have a need to "explain" everything.  We are curious by nature and that is only normal that when there is ignorance, we would attribute some things to a "higher power" or to "gods."  I think a lot of this stems from our fear of the unknown, and especially dying and death.  It's very comforting to believe that you will see your deceased loved ones again and be reunited with them in a "heaven" type of place.  I don't like to take that away from others.  I guess if that helps some people deal with loss or their eventual demise, then it's all good.  I do not like when they try to guilt other people or even threaten them (with hell, etc) to believe or to live like they do though.


If religion was "all good" in the end faith wouldn't be a problem.  Living a lie, and especially acting upon it, makes this place a living hell...


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


Evolution says we are all related.  The trees, frogs, dinosaurs, lions, sheep all have a common ancestor.  And there wasn't a first human.  Humans slowly became humans from a more primitive ape like animal.  So what I'm saying is maybe Adam was a pre human and he had sex with another species (sheep) and that is how humans came to me.  Probably not a sheep but could have been something with an easily accessable vajayjay.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God.
> 
> Jesus’ words in John 10:30 are, “I and the Father are one.”  You  need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this reason.
> 
> ...


You act like the authors of the bible were chasing Jesus around "recording" what he said.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> In my opinion, it is a man made and made up concept because human beings have a need to "explain" everything.  We are curious by nature and that is only normal that when there is ignorance, we would attribute some things to a "higher power" or to "gods."  I think a lot of this stems from our fear of the unknown, and especially dying and death.  It's very comforting to believe that you will see your deceased loved ones again and be reunited with them in a "heaven" type of place.  I don't like to take that away from others.  I guess if that helps some people deal with loss or their eventual demise, then it's all good.  I do not like when they try to guilt other people or even threaten them (with hell, etc) to believe or to live like they do though.


Sometimes I love you.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


"Adam" had no penis.  The default human sex, therefore the one made in the Image of God, is female.

Men got the penises and the nipples, which we have no need for, came along for the ride.  Just a modification on the original and anyone with an eye for design can see that from 100 feet away...


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Penis...First sign of Devolution.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Why do you think my strong spiritual connection has anything to do with my treatment of idiots in political or economic debates? My God doesn't "care" because it's not a Supreme Person. If I ran across one of you libtarded pinheads drowning and didn't try and save you, that would be a different story. To borrow a phrase from my Christian friends, my soul is compelled to follow a path of righteousness. That doesn't mean I have to refrain from calling you a moron or dipshit on a message board.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, it is a man made and made up concept because human beings have a need to "explain" everything.  We are curious by nature and that is only normal that when there is ignorance, we would attribute some things to a "higher power" or to "gods."  I think a lot of this stems from our fear of the unknown, and especially dying and death.  It's very comforting to believe that you will see your deceased loved ones again and be reunited with them in a "heaven" type of place.  I don't like to take that away from others.  I guess if that helps some people deal with loss or their eventual demise, then it's all good.  I do not like when they try to guilt other people or even threaten them (with hell, etc) to believe or to live like they do though.
> ...



Well, you cannot control how other people are going to think!


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Somehow, I think Jesus would disagree.    Turn the other cheek and all that.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Separation of the sexes has been quite useful in our case.  You have a sex for dying in battle, running down large dangerous animals, and parallel parking.  The other sex handles the rest.  Win-win.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


No, but we can damn well show them it's wrong...


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Lol!  What???


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Penises and nipples are just along for the ride?    This has to go down as one of the funniest posts of the day, I think!


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



You are arrogant and condescending.
However, I must thank you for keeping your posting in the last few days brief compared to your usual encyclopedic methodology.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Perhaps because I'm the same in real life as I am on these boards.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


The nipples are for you, AKA the babies you make.  We got a set because we are you, modified.  It's biology,


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

Saw the thread headline.  Saw the author of the thread's OP.

Then, a question came up:

Who gives a rat's ass why he (or anybody else) doesn't believe (or does believe) in God?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> Saw the thread headline.  Saw the author of the thread's OP.
> 
> Then, a question came up:
> 
> Who gives a rat's ass why he (or anybody else) doesn't believe (or does believe) in God?


The same could be asked of your question?  Either join in or bugger off eh?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



And the penises are just along for the ride!  Lol!  Sorry, but that's really funny to me!


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## Bonzi (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God.
> ...


 
Well if you are going to believe the Bible - you should either believe it or not....
It's pretty black and white.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> Saw the thread headline.  Saw the author of the thread's OP.
> 
> Then, a question came up:
> 
> Who gives a rat's ass why he (or anybody else) doesn't believe (or does believe) in God?



Discussion?  It's an interesting discussion, the belief in gods.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Not what I said but how often do you meet one that isn't?


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > Saw the thread headline.  Saw the author of the thread's OP.
> ...


The same could be said of many things.

but it takes powerful kind of chutzpah to post a thread about the pressing urgent issue of our age:  "why I, delta.dweeb, don't believe in God."

Seriously, WGAF?

I did join in to mock his chutzpah and to note how irrelevant that question is.

Now, feel obligated to go fuck yourself.

M'kay?

good.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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I think that men have nipples because in the womb, sex is not determined immediately.  However, that makes the penis no less valuable.  All part of our "design" and ability to reproduce to keep the species going.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > Saw the thread headline.  Saw the author of the thread's OP.
> ...



Nah.  Not really.  It's in the wrong forum, anyway.

A "_*discussion*_" would maybe be more of an open question along the lines of "let's talk about why we either do or do not believe in a God or in gods?"

An egotistical bit of pontificating would presume that anybody either does or should give a crap about HIS personal disinclination to believe in God.

Why on Earth would it matter to most other people "why" he happens to be one of many non believers?

I mean.  Good for him.  But who cares?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
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Okay, fair point, but I still find it a good spring board to discussion about the belief and why it exists, etc, but yeah, people love to talk about themselves too.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Just one more reason why it was so funny!


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
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Never said it wasn't valuable, I certainly enjoy mine, just said it's a modification, and the first "human" wouldn't have had one as there was nothing to fuck with it.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> * * * *
> 
> Perhaps because I'm the same in real life as I am on these boards.



Not me.  I am relatively civil and polite in real life.

That's why this place is kind of fun for me.

It harms nobody for me to drop that thin veneer of socialized civility and to be just as rude and snarky and disrespectful as I choose to be.

Heck, on the Boards, I have even been known to employ sarcasm and foul language!


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > * * * *
> ...



I tried polite...once.
No fun at all.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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Hmm.  True. If "God" had not already planned to create a female, why make a penis on the man?  Interesting.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
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> > Indeependent said:
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Hell, nobody else is!


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
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If this thread had been posted in the Religion forum, the challenge to my snarky commentary about the OP would be more on point.

I do agree that EVERY participant in almost all discussions on the Board is demonstrating a bit of ego.  It's like they are claiming "hey.  listen to what I have to say about this topic.  MY thoughts are worthy of YOUR time and consideration!"

Of course, some of us are right.  Some aren't.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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It was in the plan...the Free Will creation had to appreciate the plan by first being one being.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

You HAVE free will.  It's part of the plan.  You get no vote in it.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Free Will, another religious concept science has more or less tossed.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/is-neuroscience-the-death-of-free-will/


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
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OMG!  An opinion is FACT!


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

You can just imagine what a "miracle" the ancient people thought it was when a loved one was unconscious or in a coma and suddenly came too.  Of course, I think it is normal that they would think a lot of natural occurrences that they could not explain and did not understand to be the works of "gods."  

Just like the belief in vampires, it developed based upon some facts.  I've seen quite a few documentaries on the vampire myths and how they developed due to bloated bodies and blood leaking out of the mouth and other orifices before the process of embalming was regularly used, and other weird things the dead body might do after being bloated with gas and blood.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
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Is there some noble reason why you are posting your thoughts and opinions?


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
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Of course.  I have seen the light.  I am more or less obliged to SHARE, with the people, my quite valuable insights and musings!

In the alternative:  Free will, baby!


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
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And said light is?


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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Wow.  You ARE plodding.  I mean, you generally are;  but you seem unable and unwilling to elevate your game.

I just now finished explaining the light I was shown.  (Really, it shone upon me from the heavens.)  Let me repeat it for your dim witted benefit:



> I am more or less obliged to SHARE, with the people, my quite valuable insights and musings!
> 
> In the alternative:  Free will, baby!


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
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Well  . . .  waiting.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
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> > Indeependent said:
> ...


I often notice how Republicans who claim to be godly are the most horrible people when it comes to economics and politics.

Feed the poor?  Fuck no.  Cure the sick?  Fuck no.  Go to war over money, fuck yea!  George Zimmerman murdered Trevon?  So fucking what?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
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Clear it up for us, what is said light?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

I bask in the glow of the light of Led Zeppelin.    Lol.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
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Your life is what you make of it in this life.  And if you as a living being get a terminal disease, you no longer have any control over your life.  Just like a 5 year old cow being led to slaughter, your time is up.  And if the cow lived a good life up until the end, I'd rather have been that cow than a human who suffered from age 1-4 then died.  

Neither the cow or child live on eternally after they die.  If they do there is no proof or evidence of it.  I don't care what you dreamed when you almost died on the doctors operating table.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Now THAT is some spiritual shit, man.  Break out um peace pipe and smoke um up!


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Again, oh plodding pal, I already did.  And what you MEANT was "clear it up for YOU."

Sorry, but you are obviously far too stupid to have much of anything cleared up for you.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Now THAT is some spiritual shit, man.  Break out um peace pipe and smoke um up!


If I were that bunny rabbit you take care of, I might think I am a god, or that I died and went to heaven.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



You "often notice" no such thing.  But you often say such dishonest tripe, that you've come to buy your own inane stupid baseless bullshit rhetoric.

Your political betters (i.e., Republicans and conservatives) are absolutely FOR feeding the poor.  That they might disagree on HOW to accomplish it doesn't mean that they are against it, you jerkoff.

Your political betters (i.e., Republicans and conservatives) are absolutely FOR curing those who are ill.  Unlike brain dead assholes like you, however, they recognize that politicians are not doctors and scientists.  So, they disagree with idiots such as you on HOW to help get medical care for those who are ill.  That certainly does NOT mean they oppose seeking cures for the sick, you dishonest hack twerp.

Nobody except asshole outlying statistics seek war over money.  That's just the cheap, dishonest rhetoric of morons like you who favor isolationism in almost all case and then complain when things end up going very badly.  It turns out that your do nothing at all philosophy doesn't serve the ends of peace all that well, you fucking dipshit.

Oh and George Zimmerman never murdered anybody.  Lying about it,  and then repeating your lies, doesn't change that fact.

Please try to get your brain to function, for perhaps the first time in your life.  And do consider someday (for a special first time) giving honesty a chance.  It will not actually kill you.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Now THAT is some spiritual shit, man.  Break out um peace pipe and smoke um up!
> ...



The bunny is like a god.  I adore him and spoil the crap out of him.  He is like an alive stuffed animal.  He is dumb but the cutest thing eva!


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> In my opinion, it is a man made and made up concept because human beings have a need to "explain" everything.  We are curious by nature and that is only normal that when there is ignorance, we would attribute some things to a "higher power" or to "gods."  I think a lot of this stems from our fear of the unknown, and especially dying and death.  It's very comforting to believe that you will see your deceased loved ones again and be reunited with them in a "heaven" type of place.  I don't like to take that away from others.  I guess if that helps some people deal with loss or their eventual demise, then it's all good.  I do not like when they try to guilt other people or even threaten them (with hell, etc) to believe or to live like they do though.



I realize this is your opinion, Chris, but I disagree. By nature, we are spiritual creatures. We always have been as best we can tell. Humans have this intrinsic spiritual awareness that nothing else in nature seems to have... if other things have it, we don't see it manifest as such. It is THIS spiritual awareness we have that makes us "fear death" or have a problem coping with it. 

When you objectively look at nature, there are things which can see better, hear better, taste better, smell better and have a better sense of touch than human beings. We don't even master our own senses as far as species go. Some animals are capable of amazing things that humans could never do... Would you have any idea which flowers need pollinating and when? I wouldn't have a clue. Would you know how to build a massive colony or hive? Bees and ants know. Could you smell food 5 miles away? A bear or shark can. So as you can see, we really suck in terms of what we can do compared to most of nature. 

The ONE thing we have an advantage on is our spiritual connection. It is through our belief in some power greater than self that enabled humans to become what we are. We even invented a word to describe the effect... Inspiration.  

Now... Does this mean there is a "deity" associated with this spirituality? I don't know, no one does.  That's where faith comes in. Even the most devoutly religious believer in God does not KNOW and cannot KNOW until they die, if they were correct. They can only believe and have faith. This is why I can't believe in Christian god of the Bible. It's not that I reject it, I just can't believe it on faith. However, I need NO faith to understand and feel my spiritual connection. Spiritual Nature is my God, it doesn't judge or condemn, it doesn't love or forgive.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
> ...


Well, whatever this light is it's not important enough for you to just say it so, that ends that.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
> ...



I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the light.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



that's your vision issue.

Not mine!


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Well, as I have already told you:  "I already told you."

That's what ended it.

Now, go play in traffic, you idiot.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, it is a man made and made up concept because human beings have a need to "explain" everything.  We are curious by nature and that is only normal that when there is ignorance, we would attribute some things to a "higher power" or to "gods."  I think a lot of this stems from our fear of the unknown, and especially dying and death.  It's very comforting to believe that you will see your deceased loved ones again and be reunited with them in a "heaven" type of place.  I don't like to take that away from others.  I guess if that helps some people deal with loss or their eventual demise, then it's all good.  I do not like when they try to guilt other people or even threaten them (with hell, etc) to believe or to live like they do though.
> ...



Things (or animals, insects, etc.), have evolved and adapted to fit their environment and their needs.  We have a large brain.  That is our "thing."  We can make clothes and shelters and use our brains to protect us and to adapt to environments as needed.  

Of course, you have your own beliefs.  I'm pretty much talking about the beliefs of "Christianity" and gods though.  Is there some kind of higher power or "power" out there?  I don't know, but I have many doubts about it.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


There is no such thing as evil if there is no God.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
> ...



I just had a physical and my vision is tip top!  If there was a light, I would see it.    Maybe the bulb needs to be replaced.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


I'm not even seeing this,





let alone this supposed light?  In this case there is smoke, but no fire...


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Evil, like God, is a human concept.  Tell me, is evil what God disapproves of?  If God tells you to slaughter infants, is that not evil?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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If I was born in Iran I'd be a Muslim because I'd be beheaded for not being Muslim.  Only one reason Islam is afraid, but that's for another topic.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Why won't the devil possess me?  I fucking dare him!!!  Bring it Satan!!! I'll be waiting in bed tonight for your pussy ass to come get me.  I'm not scared of you.  Is there a word one should never say?  Tell me what that word is and I'll say it with rosary beeds shoved up my butt.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Nobody claims atheists can't be moral.  Many are fine outstanding citizens.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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We all wait for lots of things.

WTF are YOU waiting on?

Curious minds wish to know.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
> ...



Wow!  Ummm, Candy Man!


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > IlarMeilyr said:
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What do you mean?  I'm not waiting on anything.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


I don't hear a lot of Iranians who come to America to escape Islam say that they were secretly Christians.  

You know you can secretly believe the truth?  That's what us atheists do when we go to church.  We don't tell the priest and members we think they are stupid.  We just go along.  So too could Muslims in Iran.  They've heard the Jesus stories.  Just quietly believe.  But they don't.  Neither do Chinese people.  They've all heard about Jesus.  If it were obviously true, they'd be converting by the millions.  

And if it were really true, what better reason to revolt?  But I don't think they are believing the Jesus stories just like you don't believe what they say about Mohammad.


And consider all the Muslim Americans who don't convert.  If it were obviously true they would, but it isn't.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
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Oh, well there is that light you mentioned that you would show us.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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How is it that the earliest records of mankind have this concept of good and evil?  
The concept of evil is counter to evolution.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> 
> > sealybobo said:
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And how are those living in Iran even aware of Jesus?  You think they have Billy Graham on the tele or something?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
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> > sealybobo said:
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I don't go to church unless there is a wedding or a funeral or something.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
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Not according to many, and most here who believe they are not believers so they can bed down with kittens and serve puppy paté...


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Considering that Jesus is also a Prophet in Islam, as is Moses, you wouldn't know that however, he would be tough to miss.

What Muslims Believe About Prophets


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Islam is growing for the same reason thousands are joining Al Queda and Isis from the west - people are attracted to evil.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
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> > sealybobo said:
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More of the naive.  Muslims are taught that to simply touch a Bible would lead to demonic possession.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Beliefs are fine.  I don't really care because it doesn't affect my life.  The only time I will ever REALLY care is when it affects my life or people's lives in a negative way.  That is when there is a problem.  Otherwise, if they are not pushing everyone else to abide by their personal belief systems, I don't have a problem with other people having them.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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You desperately need to learn about Islam: Islam 101


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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Unfortunately I know too much about Islam. 
If you want to think Jesus is being openly taught about in Mosques, who am I to stop you?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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Muslims believe that Muhammed was the prophet and not Jesus Christ.  Lol.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
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Jesus is respected as a prophet.  They don't teach (what you don't live anyway) but that doesn't change who Jesus is in Islam.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
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Muhammad is the Last of the Prophets.

"Islam teaches that God has sent prophets to humanity, in different times and places, to communicate His message. Since the beginning of time, God has sent His guidance through these chosen people. They were human beings who taught the people around them about faith in One Almighty God, and how to walk on the path of righteousness. Some prophets also revealed God's Word through books of revelation."
What Muslims Believe About Prophets


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
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Isn't Revelations more about the end times than about Jesus?  Yeah, they too have some pretty fucked up beliefs.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
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Books of Revelation.  Your ignorance of religion is appalling...

Books of Revelation


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Enough about Islam.  You can't even take a Bible onto the Temple Mount they are so terrified of it.

So how does the concept of evil fit into evolution?  Why should the weak get the chance to live and procreate?  What's wrong with a stronger male taking his mate by force?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
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Well, the only "book of revelation" I've heard about is the one in the Bible.  

The Book of Revelation, often known simply as Revelation or The Apocalypse of John, is a book of the*New Testament* that occupies a central place in Christian eschatology. Its title is derived from the first word of the text, written in Koine Greek: apokalypsis, meaning "unveiling" or "revelation".


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
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Books, it's plural.  You do what that is eh?  Computer versus computers?  More than one computer.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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I think people can be moral without religion.  I don't wish to hurt anyone, so there it is.  I realize that "destructive tendencies" have a negative impact on my community too.  I also have a conscience and empathy.  I don't need to believe in a religion or a god to have those things.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


I see you don't understand evolution either.  What does Survival of the Fittest mean?  In that concept, what does "fit" mean?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
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Well, the books in your link are not the "books of revelation" that I know of.  The Torah is the called the Torah, and the Quran the Quran.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
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People can be moral without religion.  The problem arises because the concept of morality changes on a whim.  Thou shall not steal is thou shall not steal, not "the insurance company will never miss the money on my bogus claim"


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 11, 2015)

(eyes-widen) 435 replies? Wow this took off didn't it.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
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Click on the damn links, that's why I posted them.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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Like I said, the concept of good and evil is counter to evolution.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Good and evil are both human concepts.  Now, what does "fit" mean in evolution?  To not understand that means you would understand nothing about it.  The same with Natural Selection and Mutation but we'll deal with those later.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



I did, and it talked about the Torah, the Quran and the Bible.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



No reason to get all upset.  You might stroke out or something.    Lol.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


I can tell you what it does not mean.  Taking care of someone with severe handicaps or illnesses and become a burden upon mankind.  Good and evil are counter to evolution.


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Good and evil have not a damn thing to do with evolution, and what does "fit" mean?


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## PaintMyHouse (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Ignorance pisses me off.  Next time read the bloody links.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

PaintMyHouse said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



I did read them.  They were not very informative, I must say.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


You think they aren't aware of Jesus? They just aren't told he's God.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



I never heard of that before I started participating in these forums.  Lol.  From what I learned and read, Jesus is God's son that he sacrificed for our sins (which makes absolutely NO sense either).


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


That's what I say about all religions! You see? We're both atheists! You just believe in one more God than I do.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Funny, but I don't know if the purpose of religion is to spread "evil."  I think of it as a way to "control" people though.  Of course, when it comes to human beings, anything and everything can be corrupted.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Beliefs are fine.  I don't really care because it doesn't affect my life.  The only time I will ever REALLY care is when it affects my life or people's lives in a negative way.  That is when there is a problem.  Otherwise, if they are not pushing everyone else to abide by their personal belief systems, I don't have a problem with other people having them.


I believe the man uses religion as a tool to control and keep us down. Have you ever seen that slave movie that Quentin Tarantino directed? Or maybe it was 13 years a slave? In the movie the master was preaching from the Bible to his slaves and he was quoting in the Bible where it tells you to obey your master. And let's be honest the church is the master


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Beliefs are fine.  I don't really care because it doesn't affect my life.  The only time I will ever REALLY care is when it affects my life or people's lives in a negative way.  That is when there is a problem.  Otherwise, if they are not pushing everyone else to abide by their personal belief systems, I don't have a problem with other people having them.
> ...



Definitely agree that it is a way to control people.  I don't think the original idea was evil though.  I think it was to try and get people to behave, as large areas could not be policed back in ancient times.  I'm sure people were plundering, looting, raping, murdering, etc., so put the "fear of God" into them.  Some people will definitely take advantage and abuse that kind of power.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


I wonder in the times of the Greek gods, when moses came screaming down the mountain, when Paul went to Greece or when Mormonism spread, how many just went along to get along.

I can imagine the town arguments back when God was first made up. The believers so radical they would kill over it. So at what point did us non believers decide it's not worth it and just went underground


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Yes, but Jesus is pure Love and I'm most definitely not. I try, but I ultimately fail.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



We don't have nearly as large of a brain as a whale. In fact, there are mammals with larger brains. We can make clothes and shelters because at some point, we began to believe in a power greater than self. We became Inspired.  (IN-inside SPIR-spirit ATION-action) 

It is through human inspiration that we have done all that humans have done. If not for human spirituality, we would still be living in the trees or caves at best. There is nothing in Darwinian evolution to explain inspiration. Not that I believe in Darwinism, but even if you do... how do you account for inspiration in humans and it's found nowhere else in nature? Why wouldn't the shark, who has ruled the oceans for millions of years, not have developed inspiration?


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## Steven_R (Nov 11, 2015)

Why would a shark even _need_ inspiration? It's perfect for its environment. Humans evolved to have big brains and opposable thumbs and an upright gait in order to better cope with our environment. We're a weak hairless monkey that has the advantages of being toolmakers (because of our aforementioned evolutionary traits of brains and thumbs). Otherwise, we'd have gone extinct a couple million years ago.

Evolution isn't like leveling up in a game.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Steven_R said:


> Why would a shark even _need_ inspiration? It's perfect for its environment. Humans evolved to have big brains and opposable thumbs and an upright gait in order to better cope with our environment. We're a weak hairless monkey that has the advantages of being toolmakers (because of our aforementioned evolutionary traits of brains and thumbs). Otherwise, we'd have gone extinct a couple million years ago.
> 
> Evolution isn't like leveling up in a game.



Nope... Other primates have opposable thumbs and use tools. They lack the inspiration to do something greater than self. I can't argue that this didn't help us cope with our environment but we should see natural evidence of other species also coping with their environment by gaining the attribute of inspiration and we don't. 

Human Inspiration is EXACTLY like "leveling up in a game." Our human spirituality is our most defining attribute as a species and is responsible for humans being what we are. Inspired creatures with spiritual connection to something greater than self.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Yeah, thankfully before the concept of God everybody just sat around the campfire having a good old time.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Yeah, thankfully before the concept of God everybody just sat around the campfire having a good old time.



i think God made some homo sapiens self aware just before the Toba catastrophe to help us survive and begin His Divine plan. The rest were suitable mates for breeding, but were not as morally and intellectually developed.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Oh now you don't deny Jesus? When did you convert? You went MIA for a bit. Did you join or start a cult?


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



He's not commenting on Jesus as Son of God, but as a historical figure.
You see Boss, I defend you when the context calls for such.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


That's when and why they came up with God. They cried because a bear ate grandma so they told the kids about the spirit world.

And God was invented before fire. He was invented in the dark. Good view of the stars.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, thankfully before the concept of God everybody just sat around the campfire having a good old time.
> ...



I have always been sort of intrigued by the possibility of ancient aliens. I know there are some people here who don't believe in God but they believe in those dang aliens... they're surely out there, no doubt! LOL 

But think about it... 5-6k years ago, some advanced alien life that is a million years ahead of us today, lands on Earth... finds life, but it's primitive.  What to do? You can't really communicate with it and share this monumental event in any meaningful way... these are primitive species without much capacity for intelligent thought. 

You can't stay indefinitely, you have to leave the planet eventually... so you pick out a species that has the attributes suitable for training or retention of an idea and you 'bestow' something upon them... a kind of 'brainwashing' for lack of a better term. It gives them the "tool" they need to gain knowledge and learn more, building on what they learn, etc. When they are done... whoosh... off up into the skies... lending credence to our fascination with something great in the sky. 

Granted, I am applying human logic here... Imagining what WE might do in such a case... but I rationalize that logic is universal. So I think this is a plausible theory and an explanation for "God" that isn't necessarily tied to a deity. It explains where our human spirituality comes from, since nature simply doesn't explain it.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



You see... I understand that YOU think this... but it makes no sense to me. I broke my leg once... compound fracture... bone sticking out kinda thing... it was ugly AND painful. Especially when they were trying to reconnect the bones... I can still remember the nurse saying... _"aww, it's okay it doesn't hurt, don't think about it..." _And I remember thinking, "you stupid bitch-- it HURTS!"  So I don't buy that we invented something that we knew was not real to console ourselves. It makes NO SENSE!


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


He said Jesus is pure love. What does that mean then? Does he mean the message?


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Pretty easy sentence, silly boob. You comprehend what Love is, right?


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## Steven_R (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Steven_R said:
> 
> 
> > Why would a shark even _need_ inspiration? It's perfect for its environment. Humans evolved to have big brains and opposable thumbs and an upright gait in order to better cope with our environment. We're a weak hairless monkey that has the advantages of being toolmakers (because of our aforementioned evolutionary traits of brains and thumbs). Otherwise, we'd have gone extinct a couple million years ago.
> ...


----------



## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> I have always been sort of intrigued by the possibility of ancient aliens. I know there are some people here who don't believe in God but they believe in those dang aliens... they're surely out there, no doubt! LOL
> 
> But think about it... 5-6k years ago, some advanced alien life that is a million years ahead of us today, lands on Earth... finds life, but it's primitive.  What to do? You can't really communicate with it and share this monumental event in any meaningful way... these are primitive species without much capacity for intelligent thought.
> 
> ...



It might make me a heretic, but I think the angels were possibly aliens working for a Galactic religion that worships the Creator, and Jesus is a mystical being who bends time and space to bring his crucifixion into a single moment across every instance He has appeared to sentient races.

Hows that bend your brain? lolol


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Steven_R said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Steven_R said:
> ...


Obviously we have someone here who does not believe in evolution.....


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


We didn't make it up knowing it was a lie. In the dark with the lion lurking we believe. Out in the ocean with sharks circling, they believe. In foxholes people believe.

I might even do it but rational calm safe me knows that's just wishful.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > I have always been sort of intrigued by the possibility of ancient aliens. I know there are some people here who don't believe in God but they believe in those dang aliens... they're surely out there, no doubt! LOL
> ...


The "real" story isn't any more believable than yours


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


I looked up the definition of love and it says nothing about Jesus. You can define love without Jesus. 

People loved long before Jesus, no?


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Oh now you don't deny Jesus?




Why are you trying to use Bible tricks on me? 

I didn't say that I believe Jesus is the living Son of God. 

Personally, I think Jesus was a very spiritually-connected person who was often misunderstood. For instance, when he is quoted as "claiming he is God" he is trying to convey the nuance that we are ALL with the spirit of God... we are all God. We intrinsically all have God inside us. I can believe that. 

I think beyond that, his message of peace and love are the embodiment of who is was. The only deviation from this was turning over the tables in the temple. That basically got him killed. Son of God? Rose from the Dead? I'm not sure on all that. People believe it... that's all I can say. 

Things I find more fascinating is Noah knowing to build an ark for a flood. Moses leading his people out of Egypt and predicting Jesus.  Then... The wise men from the East, totally unrelated to all of this... through their own spirituality, get this kind of dream/interpretation thing where they are compelled to follow a star westward where a new King would be born. And-- We can actually use technology to go back in time to that period and confirm things like the movement and position of Jupiter, the Moon and the Sun, and it all fits precisely with the timeline. 

There are many incorrect details of all this, but yeah... it likely happened close to how it is told. Jesus wasn't born in a manger, it was the lower level of a farm/house dwelling that was common in the time, they didn't have inns. It happened in December but Jesus was 8-months old. He was born in April. He may not even have been born in Jerusalem. The "wise men" weren't kings... we don't even know if there were three, they just brought three gifts and came from somewhere near modern day Iraq. 

To me, it's just a fascinating story all the way through. Whether it is all true or not? No idea... But I think it is laughable to "conclude" that Jesus never existed.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Boss means "Tough Love".
You can't tell us you don't know what that means.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Nope. People before Jesus were killing each other and murdering each other but thinking it was all okay because God wanted them to. Kind of like the Radical Islamists are now. You see, Islam is almost exactly like Christianity without Jesus. They've not had their Jesus. 

When Jesus came along, he brought the message of peace, love and forgiveness. He promised that if you walk in the light of God you will have eternal life in heaven. And basically... that is all. 

So you see, Jesus is Pure Love.  That's simple to figure out if you have any intellect. Everything Jesus stood for is Love. Everything Jesus died for is Love. It is an act of Pure Love to give your life on the cross so that all mankind can live in heaven and be forgiven for their sins. Regardless of whether you "believe" or not... that is a pretty dang selfless act of Pure Love.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Yes, many Jews think that's what Paul was trying to accomplish.
If Paul saw what ACTUALLY happened he would turn over in his grave.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Of course they did.  People actually lived lives before Jesus and organized religion, believe it or not.    I've asked before, what happened to all of those "souls" who had no Jesus to be sacrificed for our alleged "sins?"  The sin where some chick in a garden ate some apple after being tempted by a serpent.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Yes, many Jews think that's what Paul was trying to accomplish.
> If Paul saw what ACTUALLY happened he would turn over in his grave.



Well see... I don't know about any of that. I am a Spiritualist who doesn't subscribe to any organized religion. I have respect for some religions and other religions are pure evil. Some denominations of otherwise good religions are pure evil. So I can't hitch myself to a Religious Wagon and I won't ever be able to. Now, maybe I am wrong? If so, I'll definitely ask God why He didn't "move" me?


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oh now you don't deny Jesus?
> ...


Funny you need to see Obama's birth certificate but not jesus'


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, many Jews think that's what Paul was trying to accomplish.
> ...



It's admirable to be spiritual; I wish more of my robotic Observant Jewish acquaintances were more spiritual.
Paul wanted a Reform Judaism; a notion rather popular amongst Hellenistic Jews assimilating at the time into Greek and Roman culture,


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, many Jews think that's what Paul was trying to accomplish.
> ...



Oh, well be sure to fill us in on what he says, Moses.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Can you imagine if Jesus returned today and started telling everyone he was Jesus.  Lol.  I'm sure everyone would listen to him.  Oh, wait, only the true "believers" will know that he is the "real" Jesus.  Or could it be the antichrist?  Hmm.  How will you know?  What kind of games is this "god" playing anyways is what I would like to ask.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



I ain't waiting up late at night for him!


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



You know, I can't recall if it was this thread or the other but you said you didn't have a problem with people and their beliefs unless they were interfering with you or your friends... but here you want to insult and mock their religious views and think nothing of it. So what you actually want, is to be able to attack them and them leave you alone... right?


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, many Jews think that's what Paul was trying to accomplish.
> ...


You sound very much like Joseph Smith. You should start a new sect. Bossolicism.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Well sorry, I can't help myself sometimes.  I'm laughing with you not at you.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


I don't hate religious people like you. I don't think any of us do but yes we come here to make fun of you. You wouldn't be here if you couldn't take it.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


He got us we are mocking them but its to make a point. If it's silly were gonna say it. If it's stupid or dumb well.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> He got us we are mocking them but its to make a point. If it's silly were gonna say it. If it's stupid or dumb well.



I'm really not trying to mock him personally.  I just  . .  . can't believe that people can believe that story.  He says he doesn't follow an organized religion, so I don't know he feels about Adam and Eve and all the other "parables" in the Bible.


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## sealybobo (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > He got us we are mocking them but its to make a point. If it's silly were gonna say it. If it's stupid or dumb well.
> ...


You don't want to know.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oh now you don't deny Jesus?
> ...



He was the Son of God, the Logos.

Nothing to be ashamed of, if you believe it. I think the  evidence fairly strong for it as well.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Of course they did.  People actually lived lives before Jesus and organized religion, believe it or not.    I've asked before, what happened to all of those "souls" who had no Jesus to be sacrificed for our alleged "sins?"  The sin where some chick in a garden ate some apple after being tempted by a serpent.



Prior to Jesus, religious practices of each nation varied and those that sacrificed animals to have their sins forgiven, which was not uncommon, had their sins 'rolled forward' to the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Any minister or Christian that has read much about their faith could have explained that to you.

So how long have you been digging for that little tidbit?


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> So you see, Jesus is Pure Love.  That's simple to figure out if you have any intellect. Everything Jesus stood for is Love. Everything Jesus died for is Love.



I dont think the money changers were so comfortable with your assertion.

Also, you do realize that when you talk about 'love' to heathen, they tend to think of buggery and fucking, not altruistic love, right?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

If you want to call "wishful thinking" evidence, then okay.  


JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Of course they did.  People actually lived lives before Jesus and organized religion, believe it or not.    I've asked before, what happened to all of those "souls" who had no Jesus to be sacrificed for our alleged "sins?"  The sin where some chick in a garden ate some apple after being tempted by a serpent.
> ...



People from all over had different beliefs and some didn't have any beliefs in gods.  The Greeks had their own set of "gods."


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Of course they did.  People actually lived lives before Jesus and organized religion, believe it or not.    I've asked before, what happened to all of those "souls" who had no Jesus to be sacrificed for our alleged "sins?"  The sin where some chick in a garden ate some apple after being tempted by a serpent.
> ...



Did the native Americans believe in "god"?  No, they did not.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> If you want to call "wishful thinking" evidence, then okay.



Where did 'wishful thinking' come into play here? I said nothing of the sort.



ChrisL said:


> People from all over had different beliefs and some didn't have any beliefs in gods.  The Greeks had their own set of "gods."


The Greeks also had Aristotle and others who believed in a Creator before they were acquainted with the Jews too.

So what?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

"Gods" are what ancient peoples used to explain away things they didn't understand.  They would get hit with famine and think the gods were punishing them, so they would make a sacrifice or what not and think it was all good for a while until the next natural disaster.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Did the native Americans believe in "god"?  No, they did not.


Lol, you have never heard of the Great Spirit?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to call "wishful thinking" evidence, then okay.
> ...



Your comment about evidence?  

There are many, many different beliefs, and many different types of pagan beliefs were also very popular at one time.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Did the native Americans believe in "god"?  No, they did not.
> ...



Is it anything like the Great Pumpkin?


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> "Gods" are what ancient peoples used to explain away things they didn't understand.  They would get hit with famine and think the gods were punishing them, so they would make a sacrifice or what not and think it was all good for a while until the next natural disaster.


That is a modern spin on it, nothing more.

When Aristotle, Plato and Socrates developed their idea of a Creator, it had nothing to do with little godlings that you speak of, dear.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > "Gods" are what ancient peoples used to explain away things they didn't understand.  They would get hit with famine and think the gods were punishing them, so they would make a sacrifice or what not and think it was all good for a while until the next natural disaster.
> ...



Ah, so you see?  They "developed" the idea of a creator.  Interesting.


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## Indeependent (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to call "wishful thinking" evidence, then okay.
> ...



Aristotle did NOT believe in God; his model is of an eternal, static universe.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Your comment about evidence?



I dont see it. Which post was it?



ChrisL said:


> There are many, many different beliefs, and many different types of pagan beliefs were also very popular at one time.


And that proves what exactly? That there are lots of differing opinions? Sure, but there are a lot of commonalities, similar to the Ten Commandments. I think that there are more commonalities than differences, but the simple fact is that the Abrahamic faiths are taling over the whole planet because they ahve the best set of concepts behind a Creator God, not silly godlings.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Ah, so you see?  They "developed" the idea of a creator.  Interesting.



You didnt realize that monotheism was developed among Greek philosophers?

Sheesh, what do they teach in college today?


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## Mr. H. (Nov 11, 2015)

"God" was a one-off that decided 13.8 billion earth-years ago that being alone was getting mighty boring.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Aristotle did NOT believe in God; his model is of an eternal, static universe.


 
Aristotle believed in a Creator, or Prime Cause or an Unmoved Mover which is what we would call an Eternal Being.

So I guess I have to disagree with you there.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> "God" was a one-off that decided 13.8 billion earth-years ago that being alone was getting mighty boring.


What makes you think God has only made one universe?


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Is it anything like the Great Pumpkin?


No, it is not.

Perhaps you dont believe in God because you cant disassociate fantasy from concepts of the Reality you live in, thus 'Great Spirit' of the Amerindian tribes is no more or less fantastical than a clearly made up cartoon 'Great pumpkin'?

I think that they have counseling for that.


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## Mr. H. (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> > "God" was a one-off that decided 13.8 billion earth-years ago that being alone was getting mighty boring.
> ...


Did I say that? What makes you think that I said that? 

I've been contemplating the multiple universe/parallel universe theory of late. I believe that in one of them, the Cubs have won every World Series every year for the past 111 earth-years.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Is it anything like the Great Pumpkin?
> ...



It was a joke.  I think you dropped your sense of humor.


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, so you see?  They "developed" the idea of a creator.  Interesting.
> ...



Actually monotheism was developed in Egypt before it went to Greece. There is evidence of a Pharaoh who changed from multiple gods, to one single god, then when he died they tried to wipe out all evidence of him having ever existed. 

How Pharaoh Akhenaten Worshiped the Sun God

"The effect of these doctrines can be seen in the sun worship of Pharaoh Akhenaten, who became an uncompromising monotheist. Aldred has speculated that monotheism was Akhenaten's own idea, the result of regarding Aten as a self-created heavenly king whose son, the pharaoh, was also unique."


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, so you see?  They "developed" the idea of a creator.  Interesting.
> ...



And that is "evidence" of what exactly?  That men made up a concept of what they believed to be thousands of years ago?


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## Avatar4321 (Nov 11, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.



They already have. Through their sacrifice they have ensured everyone who ever dies will be resurrected.

Their spirits will reunite with their bodies into immortality.

Seems kind of silly to be upset with God over people dying when He has already solved.The problem of death for us.


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## Avatar4321 (Nov 11, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Bastard who murdered those kids blew a .24 BAC and 'He was released from prison in 1999 after serving nearly 11 years of his 17-year sentence. '
> 
> Would smile-kill him and I don't care if they execute me for it. That's a death I"d be ok with.



So you are a murderer. Who gives you the authority to take another man's life in cold blood?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Avatar4321 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > If God can create sentient beings on a whim, if Jesus can create food and bread to feed multitudes, then can both save their own faithful once in fucking while.
> ...



Death is not a "problem".  It is a natural process that happens to every living organism eventually.  That is why we have these kinds of beliefs, because we are sentient beings and we realize what is going to happen.


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## Avatar4321 (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Avatar4321 said:
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> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
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And the resurrection is likewise a natural process that happens to all living. Without it, death would be a serious problem because we would be eternally miserable and unable to obtain a fullness of joy.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Avatar4321 said:


> ChrisL said:
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I hate to say that I think we just go in for the "dirt nap."  Hey, that's just what I believe though.  I have no "evidence" to show me that anything else happens after death.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > He got us we are mocking them but its to make a point. If it's silly were gonna say it. If it's stupid or dumb well.
> ...



I think the Garden of Eden story is an allegory. I think many of the so-called fables in the Bible are allegorical or analogous. Before we had written language, stories had to be remembered and passed down through story-telling... and how do you tell a compelling story? They didn't have visual and audio medium or even text... they only had imagination. So most of the stories are full of colorful imagery that you can envision in your mind and maintain interest. It's just the way they told stories back then and we stupidly try to take it literally.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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I can buy that.  I have thought myself that the Bible stories are most like parables, like "lessons."  Well, there are a LOT of people who actually do take it literally too.


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## Steven_R (Nov 11, 2015)

Avatar4321 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Bastard who murdered those kids blew a .24 BAC and 'He was released from prison in 1999 after serving nearly 11 years of his 17-year sentence. '
> ...



I've heard it said many times, "some men just need killing." It ain't murder when it's taking out the trash. Illegal maybe, but not necessarily wrong.


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## Steven_R (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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I suspect that's the basis for religion. We're physically weak, the world is big, scary place we didn't understand, and at the end of the day we're all scared of what happens after that last breath. So we made up stories to comfort ourselves. We go to a better place, bad people don't, we become with the Force, whatever.

Maybe something happens, maybe nothing. I can't change it anyways, so why worry about it?


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I have thought myself that the Bible stories are most like parables, like "lessons."



Exactly.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Steven_R said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
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It is a scary thing, and it's not easy to question those things either after hearing about "hell" and stuff.  Lol.  It's a catch-22.  Free will?  Not so sure about all that when you face threats of torture and stuff!


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

Steven_R said:


> ChrisL said:
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*So we made up stories to comfort ourselves.*

This just never made any sense to me whatsoever. I'm sorry. I don't get it. How does it help you to imagine something non-existent?  Next time something bad happens to you... try thinking of some fictional thing in your imagination and see if it makes you feel better about the bad thing... I am betting it makes little or no difference. If your wife burns your dinner, just sit there and imagine it is steak and lobster and clean your plate with a smile on your face... should work, right? 

It's just such a dumb notion. I'm sorry, I know it's your belief and I don't mean to make fun of it but I never have understood how people can accept this.  In addition, we see no example anywhere else in nature of any species of life inventing something imaginary in order to cope. Every natural behavior in every species of life has a purpose and reason. Of course our spirituality helps us cope with the loss of a loved one but it's because our spiritual connection is REAL. So you are actually presenting evidence for our spiritual attribute, not an explanation of it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Steven_R said:
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The same way all stories were made up.  That's how.  People are imaginative.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> Steven_R said:
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People used to really think vampires were real too, and they had evidence!


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> People used to really think vampires were real too, and they had evidence!



Again... you are doing MORE to prove my point than to refute it. 

You said it yourself... people *used* to think... they learned better and changed. When we learn things are untrue we move on, we don't keep on believing them. However, we have ALWAYS believed in something greater than self. It has never left us, we've never abandoned it. If there were nothing to it (like vampires) we would have learned better and moved on... long, long ago.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > People used to really think vampires were real too, and they had evidence!
> ...



It's wishful thinking, IMO.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> The same way all stories were made up. That's how. People are imaginative.



No doubt that we are imaginative and can create stories. However, we don't imagine something that isn't real and yet it has some magical effect on us.. that's just nuts. If you hit your finger with a hammer, you can't imagine that Tinkerbell came down and waved her magic wand and made your finger stop hurting. Or maybe, if you've been doing shrooms you can... but eventually you come to realize you were just tripping and Tinkerbell didn't do much for your smashed finger.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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So when you wrote, "Well  . . .  waiting.  " you didn't know wtf you were posting?

That clears everything up!


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > The same way all stories were made up. That's how. People are imaginative.
> ...



No Tinkerbells here, or "magical effects" for that matter.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > IlarMeilyr said:
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Besides your claim of some mystical "light", nothing.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Okay... so how often have you "wishfully thought" something, been let down, but kept on "wishfully thinking" it? Wishful thinking only takes you so far, then you have to face reality. I really think that humanity and human achievement is based on something more than our wishful thinking that our inspiration existed.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

If you must know, I am waiting for an e-mail right now.    Does that count?


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Well then, you're left with no argument.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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I'm sorry, but I just don't consider these kinds of religious beliefs to be any more than that.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> If you must know, I am waiting for an e-mail right now.    Does that count?



I don't know...wait for 70k years and get back with me on how your "wishful thinking" is working?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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You are the one talking about Tinker Bells and magic mushrooms.    That wasn't me.  Lol.  If I hit my finger with a hammer, then it's going to hurt.  No Tinkerbells or *gods *are going to do anything about that.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

yebut ...

What we all wanna know is why you don't believe in the time before the big bang.

And yeah.  It's a trick question because we all know there was no time before time nor space before that time.

Something DID come out of nothing, you see.

And that's what we are obligated to believe because physics says it and therefore it must be true even if the "science" that leads to that conclusion itself violates the rules of science.

Which is a pretty convenient state of original facts.

I swear I haven't had a drink nor have I imbibed any special controlled substances. 

In that special state that led to the creation of all that exists (time, space, matter energy), there was no need for a cause for any effect.

Effects just kind of happened.  It was like

magic.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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It's not about Religion, Chris. I've said that already. I am not a Religious person or really even a big Religious fan. I think Religion is terribly flawed. It only serves as valid and ample evidence that humans have a very healthy and vibrant connection with spirituality. It is through this spiritual connection that man has created all these assorted religious beliefs. We are fucked up and flawed inferior creatures though, so we keep creating fucked up and flawed religions as a result. This doesn't negate our spiritual connection, it reaffirms it.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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I didn't say the light was mystical. 

But, YOU *did* say you were waiting for something BEFORE you denied that you were waiting for something.

Are you related to John F'n Kerry?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> yebut ...
> 
> What we all wanna know is why you don't believe in the time before the big bang.
> 
> ...



Hmm.  Interesting stuff, but I don't really consider science to be magic at all.   I have no idea what happened before the big bang, nor have I claimed to.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > IlarMeilyr said:
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What are you babbling about?  Do I look like John Kerry to you?  What in the hell kind of stupid question is that?


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Right.. but don't you see? You are claiming that we invented God to console our hurt. Doesn't work... like you said, you hit your finger, it fucking hurts... no invention of your imagination is going to console your hurt.


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
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You were the one that was here earlier in the day babbling something about your "light."  What in the hell were you talking about, tough guy?


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## ChrisL (Nov 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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No, to explain the things they could not explain, and I also gave an example.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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LOL!

What am I babbling about?  Darlin' I'm just quoting YOU.  That's why it sounds like babble.



> In September 2003, Kerry implied that voting against wartime funding bills was equivalent to abandoning the troops.
> 
> "I don't think any United States senator is going to abandon our troops and recklessly leave Iraq to whatever follows as a result of simply cutting and running," he said.
> 
> ...


 --excerpt from Kerry's Top Ten Flip-Flops

*Kerry* voted FOR it BEFORE he voted AGAINST it. ::  *You* said you were waiting for something BEFORE you immediately denied that you were waiting for anything.

Maybe you ARE related to ol' Lurch.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...




No.  That's just your confusion on clear display.  Like a High Def screen.

Here, darlin': try to follow along.  

What I did was use an old euphemistic kind of expression.  The light dawned on me.  Sorry.  It's probably a generational thing.   There's even some old songs about seeing "the light."  Hank Williams had a catchy version:

"I saw the light, I saw the light
No more darkness, no more night
Now I'm so happy no sorrow in sight
Praise the Lord I saw the light"

Hank Williams - I Saw The Light Lyrics | MetroLyrics

I believe Johnny Cash did a cover of it, too.


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## Boss (Nov 11, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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Well, at first you said "to console our fears" and now you say it was to explain the unexplained. 

If you come across something you can't explain in your life... do you invent something entirely from your imagination to explain it and does that work for you as a satisfactory explanation? Like, if you found $100 in your purse, would you imagine gnomes or pixies put it there and would that suffice in your mind as a valid explanation? 

Let me assume that it wouldn't.  You see the whole "God Did It" thing is really this dumb... it doesn't answer ANY question or explain anything. We learn when we're about 4 years old, that we can't "imagine" things to go away... stare at those peas on your plate all you like... they're still there. Imagine that you're going to turn into Superman if you eat them, it doesn't make them go down any easier, especially when you know that you're not really going to turn into Superman.

I understand your mindset but your explanation doesn't work. It certainly wouldn't have worked for 70k years of humanity... including our spiritually inspired creation of SCIENCE to ...ahemm... explain the unexplained!


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 12, 2015)

frigidweirdo said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


I am aware of that, what I am pointing out is that the Greek philosophers developed monotheism from the use of reason and observation.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 12, 2015)

Avatar4321 said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Bastard who murdered those kids blew a .24 BAC and 'He was released from prison in 1999 after serving nearly 11 years of his 17-year sentence. '
> ...


He didnt kill anyone moron, but said he would be willing to, and I agree with him.

Get over yourself.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > IlarMeilyr said:
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Sorry that you are a wacko, but I don't have a clue as to what you are babbling about.  You came onto this thread incoherently babbling about some "light."  Lol.  I was just humoring you because I think you are whack.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > IlarMeilyr said:
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Sorry, I think you are the one confused.  I have no idea why you would be posting crappy country music.    Terrible.  You have terrible taste in music.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Religious people are nuts!    Lol.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Lol!  Yup, if we can't explain it must be GODS!    Just like the ancient peoples.


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## JimBowie1958 (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Lol!  Yup, if we can't explain it must be GODS!    Just like the ancient peoples.


You are an idiot.

Welcome to my ignore list.


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## sealybobo (Nov 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


If you refuse to get it I don't think she should continue trying to explain it.

She and I understand a major emotional reason you have cognitive dissonance on this. If you don't want to admit you are superstitious and practicing wishful thinking that's cool but you won't convince us, just yourself.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Lol!  Yup, if we can't explain it must be GODS!    Just like the ancient peoples.



If you believe in God... whether it is explained OR not, doesn't make *any* difference. Of course God did it! God did everything... doesn't answer the question as to HOW God did it, does it?


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## sealybobo (Nov 12, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lol!  Yup, if we can't explain it must be GODS!    Just like the ancient peoples.
> ...


Then you better ignore me too.

This is the only reason we don't like being atheists. We don't like hurting good peoples feelings or to burst your bubble. Ignorance is bliss and I hate being a bliss buster.

I just think a lie is a lie no matter how good it makes you feel. And it's holding us back as a species. How? A million ways.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

JimBowie1958 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lol!  Yup, if we can't explain it must be GODS!    Just like the ancient peoples.
> ...





Lol.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lol!  Yup, if we can't explain it must be GODS!    Just like the ancient peoples.
> ...



Well, like I said earlier in this thread, I don't really believe in a god, so I completely disagree.  I mean, you saying that god did this and that doesn't really mean anything to me because I really don't take the concept of a god too seriously.  

If there was a god though, then I do not think IT is anything like what most people think it is.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



It's funny because I had made a post saying that ancient people used "gods" to explain that which they don't understand, and then this one goes on to give examples of things he cannot explain so that it MUST be the work of a god!    Hilarious.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Also, it's pretty funny to see grown men throw temper tantrums.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

I've thought about this since I was a child and questioned it.  I've never seen any evidence of the existence of any gods, therefore, I have no reason to believe that any gods exist.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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You don't understand much of anything as best I can tell. 

I'm real sorry but my Science professors never taught me about this aspect of the Scientific Method where theories are proven valid because someone "doesn't get it" or "doesn't understand."

Conventionally, you are supposed to present evidence and if I can't find your evidence valid you have to convince me. It's usually not a matter of "I say so (and so does my buddy) and you just don't get it."


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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What evidence?  You have given a couple of examples of . . . some silly coincidences and then proclaim "it's God!"  Geez, that does not count as any kind of scientific evidence whatsoever.  Lol.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

If I found 100 dollars in my purse, I would assume I had put there and forgotten about it.    I would certainly NOT think that God "blessed me" with a 100 dollar bill.  To me, that is really . . . crazy.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

What else is really funny is that this thread is titled "Why I Don't Believe in God" yet religious people show up and act all offended about it.    Lol.  Well sorry but we all do not believe in god or at least your version of a god.


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## sealybobo (Nov 12, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> Bastard who murdered those kids blew a .24 BAC and 'He was released from prison in 1999 after serving nearly 11 years of his 17-year sentence. '
> 
> Would smile-kill him and I don't care if they execute me for it. That's a death I"d be ok with.


Why? He made a mistake. A huge one but I think 11 is enough.

We have to start treating people we are mad at differently than the people we are afraid of. I'd agree with you if we were talking about Jeffrey Dahmer but were talking about a drunk. 

But after that 11 years I say the guy owes the victims family 10% of their pay for the rest of their lives. If they hit the lotto, 10% goes to the family. And you must work. No work go back to prison and find a job from there.

This would require completely changing the way we do everything. 

Wouldn't that deter people from drunk driving? Ten % for the rest of your life. When your parents die and you get inheritance, ten%.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > Bastard who murdered those kids blew a .24 BAC and 'He was released from prison in 1999 after serving nearly 11 years of his 17-year sentence. '
> ...



Well, that is the case sometimes if a person is sued in a civil case and wins.  If the defendant does not pay up, he or she is going to owe that money to the victims and if he or she wins any money, the defendant will have to give it over to the victims.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Chris, with all due respect, in your heart of hearts, I know that you believe in something inside you that is greater than yourself. I can tell by reading your posts. I can relate to your distrust of religion but you really need to know that your human spirituality is not associated or affiliated with any religion. Neglecting your spirituality for too long is not healthy, either physically or emotionally. 

Now, silly boob is a different story. Unlike you, he doesn't know how to carry himself with grace. He probably doesn't think there is anything inside him greater than himself. He is a self-loathing and pathetic person who seeks approval from others by being despicable and crude. In less than 20 years, he will die a miserable, bitter and lonely man, with nothing to show for his life.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> If I found 100 dollars in my purse, I would assume I had put there and forgotten about it.    I would certainly NOT think that God "blessed me" with a 100 dollar bill.  To me, that is really . . . crazy.



You missed the point. You would NOT create some imaginary thing to explain the unexplained. You would rationalize that you forgot about it. Yes... it's CRAZY for someone to imagine something that is not real and convince themselves it is responsible for anything. So why do you think this is what humans did 70k years ago and have been doing ever since?  

Makes NO sense. It's CRAZY!


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > If I found 100 dollars in my purse, I would assume I had put there and forgotten about it.    I would certainly NOT think that God "blessed me" with a 100 dollar bill.  To me, that is really . . . crazy.
> ...



I'm not talking about that kind of scenario.  I'm talking about natural disasters, death, things of that nature.  Yes, that is more than likely how the first "gods" came to be.  Ancient people who were ignorant of the world around them and needed an "explanation."


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > If I found 100 dollars in my purse, I would assume I had put there and forgotten about it.    I would certainly NOT think that God "blessed me" with a 100 dollar bill.  To me, that is really . . . crazy.
> ...



That is EXACTLY the reason why things like "virgin sacrifices" were performed.  To placate the "gods" so that ancient communities could try to avoid plagues and drought and all of those bad things.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Human sacrifice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Human sacrifice* is the act of killing one or more human beings, usually as an offering to a deity, as part of a religious ritual. Human sacrifice has been practiced in variouscultures throughout history. Victims were typically ritually killed in a manner that was supposed to please or appease gods, spirits or the deceased, for example as apropitiatory offering, or as a retainer sacrifice when the King's servants are killed in order for them to continue to serve their master in the next life. Closely related practices found in some tribal societies are cannibalism and headhunting.[1] By the Iron Age, with the associated developments in religion (the Axial Age), human sacrifice was becoming less common throughout the Old World, and came to be looked down upon as barbaric in pre-modern times (Classical Antiquity). In the New World, however, human sacrifice continued to be widespread to varying degrees until the European colonization of the Americas.

In modern times, even the practice of animal sacrifice has virtually disappeared from all major religions (or has been re-cast in terms of ritual slaughter), and human sacrifice has become extremely rare. Most religions condemn the practice, and present-day secular laws treat it as murder. In a society which condemns human sacrifice, the term*ritual murder* is used.[2][3]


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

I really don't see much difference between what ancient people believed and the religious beliefs that we see today except that, of course, they have toned down their "rituals."  Most Christians would abide by the NT but not the OT.  The belief system and how it developed, IMO, is pretty much the same.  I think all gods were created by men to explain away things they couldn't understand and things that seemed "unbelievable," like the earth opening up and swallowing things during an earthquake, or a Tsunami washing away entire villages and towns and killing everyone.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

Oh, and ancient people also had many stories about sea monsters and other such myths that they SWORE were real at the time.  Mermaids, serpents, squids that were so giant they could swallow an entire ship.  People are very imaginative creatures, and when they are under stress or duress, they can make up and/or imagine some wild things.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Well the significance of death or something life-changing shouldn't change the logic or insanity of believing in some imaginary being to explain things. The scenario doesn't matter, if anything, that would be even CRAZIER! 

So what does an imaginary money gnome explain? Not a damn thing... it's silly and crazy, you admitted it yourself. Creating something imaginary in your mind does not work to explain things... it just doesn't.  Not unless you're insane. The RATIONAL mind seeks a REAL explanation and cannot be content with something they know isn't real. That's why your theory makes absolutely NO sense.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

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I'm sorry, but that is how all beliefs have started.  To explain away things that weren't understood at the time.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

When ancient people came across dinosaur bones, they thought they were definitive evidence of gods and giants and things like that.  Lol.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> That is EXACTLY the reason why things like "virgin sacrifices" were performed. To placate the "gods" so that ancient communities could try to avoid plagues and drought and all of those bad things.



Again, you are presenting me with clear evidence of strong and devout spiritual belief.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

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These people THOUGHT that by sacrificing people to their gods, it would help them.  Ancient civilizations like the Mayans were known to practice these rituals.  Obviously, they did NOT work.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I really don't see much difference between what ancient people believed and the religious beliefs that we see today except that, of course, they have toned down their "rituals."  Most Christians would abide by the NT but not the OT.  The belief system and how it developed, IMO, is pretty much the same.  I think all gods were created by men to explain away things they couldn't understand and things that seemed "unbelievable," like the earth opening up and swallowing things during an earthquake, or a Tsunami washing away entire villages and towns and killing everyone.



But they *didn't* invent something imaginary _"to explain away things they couldn't understand"_ because we just went through how utterly crazy that would be. You're not following your own logic here.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

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Right... and they KILLED them dead... it was serious... nothing imaginary about it. Whether they worked is not the point. Whether the God they worshiped was real is not the point. They had a profound and deep spirituality that compelled them strongly enough to take lives. This wasn't some quaint little fairy tale they made up to tell the kids when the bear ate grandma. This was fundamental in their lives.


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

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> ...



No, that was about a 100 dollar bill suddenly appearing in my purse.  They most certainly did make things up to explain away things they could not understand.  Are you denying this fact?


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## ChrisL (Nov 12, 2015)

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But NOT real.  All of those people were KILLED for nothing.


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## sealybobo (Nov 12, 2015)

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I didn't know you felt that way about me. Wow! I'll never speak to you again asshole.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> When ancient people came across dinosaur bones, they thought they were definitive evidence of gods and giants and things like that.  Lol.



Humans have been mistaking discoveries for all our existence. Several times in recent history, people have claimed to have found the "missing link" and it always turns out to be false, it's some ape instead. Darwin thought he answered the question of species origin when he saw some finches on an island with long beaks. It turned out they grew long beaks because there had been a drought and the finches with the long beaks survived and passed on their long beak genes. 

Yes, a lot of things ancient men attributed to Gods are things we now understand through science... However, we still can't explain WHY things are how they are. You can tell me all about HOW gravity works, you cannot tell me WHY. You can explain HOW some atoms become electrically-charged and create electromagnetism but you cannot explain WHY. You can tell me HOW two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen create the compound of water... can you tell me WHY? 

Do you know WHY a random universe popped into existence from nothing with 42 cosmological constants that had to be fine tuned to precision in order for a physical universe to exist?


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

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Again, not my point. This was not done as novelty. These people devoutly believed in their hearts in what they were doing. That's more distinctive than mere imagination. We're talking about something considerably more important than throwing salt over your shoulder. 

What you are showing is evidence of human spiritual belief and it's very strong and persistent throughout the human record. It's our most defining attribute as a species.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

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*I'll never speak to you again asshole.*

Yeah, I'm sure I'm not that fucking lucky. 

Put on your big girl panties and suck it up, buttercup.


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## Boss (Nov 12, 2015)

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*They most certainly did make things up to explain away things they could not understand.  Are you denying this fact?*

Yes!!!! 

Because we just went through how you'd be a crazy person to do that. Are you not following?


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## ChrisL (Nov 13, 2015)

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There is much historical evidence that people did just that!  I don't really know why you keep arguing this point.  It has been settled.


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## ChrisL (Nov 13, 2015)

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Damn, people were ignorant as all hell back in the day!  Why do you think they burned people for being "witches" and other such things.  Another example . . . 

"Interest and belief in revenants surged in the Middle Ages in Europe. Though in most modern stories the classic way to become a vampire is to be bitten by one, that is a relatively new twist. In his book "Vampires, Burial, and Death: Folklore and Reality" (Yale, 2008), folklorist Paul Barber noted that centuries ago, "Often potential revenants can be identified at birth, usually by some abnormality, some defect, as when a child is born with teeth. Similarly suspicious are children born with an extra nipple (in Romania, for example); with a lack of cartilage in the nose, or a split lower lip (in Russia) … When a child is born with a red caul, or amniotic membrane, covering its head, this was regarded throughout much of Europe as presumptive evidence that it is destined to return from the dead." Such minor deformities were looked upon as evil omens at the time.

The belief in vampires stems from superstition and mistaken assumptions about postmortem decay. The first recorded accounts of vampires follow a consistent pattern: Some unexplained misfortune would befall a person, family or town — perhaps a drought dried up crops, or an infectious disease struck. Before science could explain weather patterns and germ theory, any bad event for which there was not an obvious cause might be blamed on a vampire. Vampires were one easy answer to the age-old question of why bad things happen to good people.

Villagers combined their belief that something had cursed them with fear of the dead, and concluded that perhaps the recently deceased might be responsible, having come back from the graves with evil intent. Graves were unearthed, and surprised villagers often mistook ordinary decomposition processes for supernatural phenomenon. For example, though laypeople might assume that a body would decompose immediately, if the coffin is well sealed and buried in winter, putrefaction might be delayed by weeks or months; intestinal decomposition creates bloating which can force blood up into the mouth, making it look like a dead body has recently sucked blood. These processes are well understood by modern doctors and morticians, but in medieval Europe were taken as unmistakable signs that vampires were real and existed among them."

Vampires: Fact, Fiction and Folklore


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## ChrisL (Nov 13, 2015)

My grandmother told me that being left handed was once considered "evil."  She was left handed and they trained her to use her right hand instead.  Now she is ambidextrous.  These beliefs are all based upon ignorance and trying to explain things that they didn't yet understand and then attributing it to something "supernatural" or "evil" or "gods" or other supernatural entities.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Chris, there is NO such historical evidence. No, it has certainly NOT been settled. I hear it CLAIMED a lot... all the time, as a matter of fact. I've never seen one single shred of evidence to support this OPINION. 

But again... We just went through an example of exactly what you claim happened. If you find a $100 bill in your purse, you do NOT create some imaginary explanation to satisfy your puzzlement. Humans most certainly did not imagine something to explain the unexplained. It doesn't make rational sense. Creating imaginary entities doesn't help explain things or console you in any way. You recognized this and said it would be crazy to do that... yet that is exactly what you believe happened. 

You say, oh I'm talking about a different scenario but it's equally crazy regardless of the scenario.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> My grandmother told me that being left handed was once considered "evil."  She was left handed and they trained her to use her right hand instead.  Now she is ambidextrous.  These beliefs are all based upon ignorance and trying to explain things that they didn't yet understand and then attributing it to something "supernatural" or "evil" or "gods" or other supernatural entities.



There is no doubt that people convince themselves of crazy things and since humans are inherently spiritual creatures with a strong spiritual connection, we tend to convince ourselves of spiritual things very easily. That is a flaw in us and it has nothing to do with the validity of human spirituality, in fact, it confirms it does exist in us.


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## sealybobo (Nov 13, 2015)

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Do you know how many Catholics got possessed after seeing the exorcist? The number of cases spiked. It's not safe to be a Catholic. Not only do the priests want to be inside you, so does Satan.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Why do you think they burned people for being "witches" and other such things.



Again... because human beings are spiritually-connected creatures who have strong spiritual awareness. It doesn't mean we are correct in our perception of our spirituality... just that we do have it.


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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But witches were fake, so we were satisfying our fake spirituality? Ok, I'll agree with that.


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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Creating imaginary entities helped humans explain and not fear the world and universe around them.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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What do you mean by "fake" ???  Because the usage of the word indicates something was deliberately staged and I don't believe people who believed or even practiced witchcraft were faking it. I think they really did believe it. Were they correct? No, but it doesn't mean they didn't think they were.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Again  just as I told Chris... it's a stupid notion. I understand it's what you think, I've heard it a million times and don't need it repeated. I get the concept... it doesn't make rational sense. We do not create imaginary things to explain what we cannot explain.. .we just fucking don't unless we're mental patients.  Now you can SAY we did... you can BELIEVE we did... but you've not convinced me and you've not shown a damn bit of evidence to support your theory and I predict you can't.


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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Fake witches, fake spirituality, because people were pretty ignorant back then. That you believe something that's fake is real doesn't change the equation. And it would have been faked on purpose since self proclaimed witches knew that they couldn't conjure up squat.


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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We created an invisible guy we call god to explain how the universe was made and by whom. What don't you get?


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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People are pretty ignorant *today.* 

I'm not arguing that witches are real or that any incarnation of god is real. Never have. Human spirituality is real because you keep presenting me evidence of it. Over and over again. The fact that our spirituality leads us to the wrong conclusions is what doesn't change the equation.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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How would you create God?  What is God made of?


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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I didn't invent the invisible Big Guy, but I guess I'd have to make him... well... invisible. He's made up of whatever invisible is made up of.


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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That people invented spirituality and think it's real doesn't make it so. Only a scientific method can give it any legitimacy. The rest is all hot air.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

Mudda said:


> We created an invisible guy we call god to explain how the universe was made and by whom. What don't you get?



It doesn't make rational sense. We don't invent imaginary beings to explain anything.... ever. 
It simply doesn't work because our minds know if we invented it from imagination so we can't trick our minds into believing the product of our imagination is a real thing other than in our head. 

I gave Chris an example, I guess you're too lazy to go back a page and read it but here it is again...

If you found $100 in your wallet you couldn't explain... would you imagine gnomes or pixies had put it there? Chris said, of course not, that would be crazy. And I agree. You would rationalize an explanation. It would serve you NO useful purpose to imagine gnomes and pixies that didn't exist. 

The same principle applies to God. We wouldn't have invented God to explain the unexplained because imaginary figments don't explain things. Gnomes and pixies don't explain the $100 in your wallet. 

You have gotten this backwards. It is our human spirituality that causes us to fear what happens after we die. It is our spirituality driving human inspiration that causes us to ponder questions that need answers. It is through this same spiritual inspiration that we invented Science to explain the unexplained.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Dark Matter?


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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There's already a logical explanation why the C-note is there, like you forgot it was there, which is likely the case. Or a friend/partner put it there... But for the big questions like about the universe... there is no easy logical explanation, well, aside from an invisible superbeing who created everything.
And trying to say that humans just wouldn't invent imaginary figments goes against human history. Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, god...


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

Mudda said:


> That people invented spirituality and think it's real doesn't make it so. Only a scientific method can give it any legitimacy. The rest is all hot air.



And you are free to believe whatever your little ol' heart desires, baby!  That also doesn't make it so. 

Physical science is of absolutely no use in examining spiritual things. Two different types of nature. 

We DO know that human beings have been spiritually-driven creatures for all their known civilized existence. The fossil records don't lie. If you are a believer in Darwinian theory, it is a big glaring conflict if this attribute is completely meaningless. No other living organism we have ever studied exhibits fundamental behaviors without a purpose and reason important to the species. If you can find an example to prove me wrong, I welcome it. 

We must conclude, human spirituality exists and the attribute is of fundamental importance to the species. That does not prove a deity exists.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Right... but you're proving my point. There IS a rational explanation, even if you don't know what it is. The extremely ILLOGICAL explanation is some imaginary thing you created in your mind put it there. 

I never said that we couldn't imagine things that aren't real... that was never the argument. 
Santa Clause is based on Saint Nicholas who was a real person. The Tooth Fairy is literally a fairy tale and I've never met any grown adult who believed in a Tooth Fairy... have you? We certainly didn't invent the Tooth Fairy as an explanation for something we didn't understand.


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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The earliest "gods" were extra terrestrials. They were not spiritual beings. Learn your history.


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## Mudda (Nov 13, 2015)

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There is a rational explanation to spirituality: to explain the unexplainable. Built on faith, the belief in the unprovable.


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## OZman (Nov 13, 2015)

Boss said:


> We DO know that human beings have been spiritually-driven creatures for all their known civilized existence.



Are you sure about that? Would you consider the idea that man was superstitious initially and then evolved to a spiritual understanding?


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## ChrisL (Nov 13, 2015)

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I've given you many, many examples now.  Yes, that is what people did in the old days.  OBVIOUSLY.


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## ChrisL (Nov 13, 2015)

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Grown people believed in ALL kinds of superstitions and still do.  Exhibit A.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Sorry, that makes no sense. You're claiming the rational explanation is an illogical behavior. 

We've gone through it... Gnomes didn't put the $100 in your wallet, that's illogical. Remember? Inventing an imaginary gnome who puts money in your wallet, doesn't explain the $100. Even if you manage to trick yourself into thinking it... still doesn't explain it. Where is the gnome? Where did it come from? Why don't you see him?  You see? No explanations. 

You've developed a completely baseless and illogical fallacy and you believe you've nailed it. You haven't because your explanation is illogical.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Tooth Fairy isn't a superstition. It's a fairy tale. No serious adult person believes in a Tooth Fairy. 

Spirituality is not superstition or it would have died out in ancient Greece. Religions can sometimes have superstitious beliefs but religions are not human spirituality, they are simply the product of it.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Yes, and I've explained how your examples are illogical. People in the old days had the same ability to reason as people today they just lacked our knowledge. You are literally trying to say that back then, if they found $100 in their purse they would assume a gnome left it there. But they had the same capacity for reason and would have thought that to be kinda... crazy. 

So this is certainly NOT obvious to me and you've not explained how we evolved from crazy people who exhibited illogical behavior.


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## Dr Grump (Nov 13, 2015)

Boss said:


> So this is certainly NOT obvious to me and you've not explained how we evolved from crazy people who exhibited illogical behavior.



We evolved because we learned from our mistakes.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Oh, but we didn't learn not to make up imaginary things to explain the unexplained?


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## Dr Grump (Nov 13, 2015)

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Some of us have...;o)


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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Well no, it's illogical.  We can go through it again if you like. You can't imagine something that isn't real to explain what you can't explain. Doesn't work.... try it out if you don't believe me. 

Look... I can't explain the origin of the universe and neither can you. We can have theories but we don't have a way to confirm if our theories are correct. So this is something we cannot explain... let's try your explanation here... We create in our minds, an invisible deity in the sky who created the universe. Have we explained the origin of the universe? No. It doesn't explain a thing.


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## ChrisL (Nov 13, 2015)

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Arguing with you is useless.  I've given you numerous examples of how people most certainly did associate natural events with supernatural activity.  NUMEROUS.


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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No, you gave me your opinion they did this. 
Unfortunately, your opinion is irrational and illogical as you admitted with the $100 in your purse example. 

Now...* associating events with spiritual beliefs is not the same as creating a belief to explain an event.* You can understand that, correct? One precedes the other. It's perfectly logical for something you believe in to rationally be the cause of something you can't explain. So we go back to your $100 bill example, if you believe your husband is a gnome.. maybe a gnome DID leave it there?  That becomes a rational explanation.


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## Dr Grump (Nov 13, 2015)

Boss said:


> Well no, it's illogical.  We can go through it again if you like. You can't imagine something that isn't real to explain what you can't explain. Doesn't work.... try it out if you don't believe me.
> 
> Look... I can't explain the origin of the universe and neither can you. We can have theories but we don't have a way to confirm if our theories are correct. So this is something we cannot explain... let's try your explanation here... We create in our minds, an invisible deity in the sky who created the universe. Have we explained the origin of the universe? No. It doesn't explain a thing.



And yet people imagine a god as their answers to these inexplicable things that occur. So, are you saying you agree with me? A god is nothing more that something people have invented to explain things that can't be explained? Cool.

The Big Bang Theory pretty much explains the origins of the universe. What caused the BBT? That has yet to be answered. I'm pretty sure some supernatural being is not the answer.


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## LittleNipper (Nov 13, 2015)

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And you don't believe that God can cause a tornado to not kill anyone sheltered in a elementary school when they are praying for protection? You don't believe that God cannot intervene to allow a little boy to walk home and make it there before a major thunder storm breaks. Terrible things happen. Presently Satan is controlling the climate because the world is under the curse of the Fall of Adam. I still associate natural events with supernatural activity. I do believe Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of grievous sin. I fully believe San Francisco has faced terrible earthquakes as a result of sin. And at the very same time people have been spared due to God's intervention and mercy. I believe that God does intervene where people repent and plead for mercy. Remember Nineveh!


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## Boss (Nov 13, 2015)

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*And yet people imagine a god...*
LOL... But they don't. That's the point. I explain it to you and you still don't seem to be getting it. You can't create something imaginary and have it explain anything... imaginary things do not explain real things. 

You say the BBT is yet to be answered? Okay... let's me and you put YOUR theory to the test here and imagine some fake thing that doesn't exist to explain it!  Think really hard and conjure up something in your mind, and let me know when you've come up with something from imagination that satisfies you as a valid, logical and rational explanation.


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## Dr Grump (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> [
> *And yet people imagine a god...*
> LOL... But they don't. That's the point. I explain it to you and you still don't seem to be getting it. You can't create something imaginary and have it explain anything... imaginary things do not explain real things.
> 
> You say the BBT is yet to be answered? Okay... let's me and you put YOUR theory to the test here and imagine some fake thing that doesn't exist to explain it!  Think really hard and conjure up something in your mind, and let me know when you've come up with something from imagination that satisfies you as a valid, logical and rational explanation.



Of course they do. God is nothing but an imaginary being/entity/call it what you will. A god explains nothing, so in that instance you are right. A god cannot explain a real thing because a god is not real.


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

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LMAO... You're right...* A god explains NOTHING! 
*
So how can a human create an imaginary god in their head to explain the unexplained?  

This is the point I am making.  Your theory is invalid because it's illogical. 

It is your *opinion* God is imaginary. However, if that is true it renders your theory illogical. We can't imagine something and have it explain anything. We both agree that is crazy and illogical. In order to have any explanatory power there has to be true belief in something real and not imaginary. Otherwise, it can't explain anything because it's illogical. 

I will reiterate.... Humans, for all of their civilized existence, have shown demonstrable evidence of spirituality. Everything we have discovered in archaeology and paleontology shows us this with clear indisputable forensic evidence. 

This existed BEFORE we began asking questions and trying to explain things. We didn't invent it TO explain things, it already existed. In fact, it is our human spirituality that *causes* us to ask questions and seek to explain the unexplained. You don't see chimps trying to figure out nuclear fission, do you?


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## Dr Grump (Nov 14, 2015)

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> LMAO... You're right...* A god explains NOTHING!
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Not really with regard to God being imaginary. There is nothing to explain otherwise. What I do know, is that over time science has explained A LOT of things that couldn't be explained in the past. A belief in a God has explained nothing since the first human decided some Ju-Ju monster in the sky was responsible for thunder and lightning....


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Dr Grump said:


> A god explains nothing,



One more point... Whether a God is real or imaginary... it still doesn't explain anything. 

I have always been puzzled by this assumption. "God did it" tells me nothing... If I believe in God, then of course God did it, who else? It doesn't answer my question of HOW. It simply explains nothing. So again, we run into a problem with common sense reasoning and logic. 

That seems to be a running theme with Secularists.


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## Dr Grump (Nov 14, 2015)

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I agree with a lot of what you say...


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Dr Grump said:


> Not really with regard to God being imaginary. There is nothing to explain otherwise. What I do know, is that over time science has explained A LOT of things that couldn't be explained in the past. A belief in a God has explained nothing since the first human decided some Ju-Ju monster in the sky was responsible for thunder and lightning....



But again... You say some human "decided" a Ju-Ju monster was responsible... HOW?  

We just went over how this is illogical. You can't invent something out of imagination and have it explain something real.... We both agreed above... Right????  

And let me turn this back around on your science id and pose a question... Can you explain the reason *why* some atoms become electrically charged to create electromagnetism? Can you explain *why* the friction of a lightning bolt moving through our atmosphere creates sound waves to cause thunder? How about *why* 2 atoms of hydrogen can bond with 1 atom of oxygen to create a compound essential for life? Can you explain *why* our universe has 41 cosmological constants that math says is virtually impossible to calculate the odds of them all being precise? 

You see; I can't answer those questions either, and neither can science.


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## Dr Grump (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> But again... You say some human "decided" a Ju-Ju monster was responsible... HOW?
> 
> We just went over how this is illogical. You can't invent something out of imagination and have it explain something real.... We both agreed above... Right????
> 
> ...



Nobody can explain those things....yet. Just as nobody could explain how reproduction happened, or lightning, or how fish breath underwater.

But for some people to turn around and say, "some supernatural being clicked its fingers and it just happened" begs the question "but how did the clicking of the fingers cause it to happen?"


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> You can't invent something out of imagination and have it explain something real.... We both agreed above... Right????



The god of war, the god of thunder, god of the sea... Man has invented a lot of imagined people to explain all kinds of things. Please take some history lessons.


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Dr Grump said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > But again... You say some human "decided" a Ju-Ju monster was responsible... HOW?
> ...



Hold on... There are all kinds of things we can explain HOW they happen. The part that we struggle with in science is WHY they happen. These are two different things. 

We can sometimes even string together why one thing makes another thing happen. But regardless of your theory or religion... We do not know WHY it all happened. 

Now I say this to convey that humans are spiritually driven by something greater than self. We call this "inspired" and we have "inspiration". This is  what makes us different. Human. 

All other aspects of what we are, stem ultimately from the fact that we are spiritually inspired creatures. It drove our curiosity to climb down from the trees or out of our caves and learn, explore, dream, achieve, create. It is the ultimate essence of who we are. 

I cannot accept that humans have done all they have done while suffering from 70-100k years of psychosis. That human spirituality is some sort of invention from imagination. This will never make rational sense to me. 

OF COURSE humans have misunderstood their spirituality and grappled with how to deal with that. CERTAINLY some humans have exploited that aspect of our condition. ABSOLUTELY humans have used their spiritual beliefs to explain things that couldn't be explained.  BUT... they couldn't have _invented_ spirituality. It's illogical.


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hold on... There are all kinds of things we can explain HOW they happen. The part that we struggle with in science is WHY they happen. These are two different things.


Oops! He realizes he's getting his ass booted, so it's TIME TO MOVE THE GOALPOSTS!


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > You can't invent something out of imagination and have it explain something real.... We both agreed above... Right????
> ...



You're right on schedule and missing the point as usual. 

All the gods you mention were believed to be real. They weren't imaginary to those who believed in them, they were very real and taken very seriously as being very real. This is simply more evidence to add to the pile of evidence supporting strong human spirituality.


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Hold on... There are all kinds of things we can explain HOW they happen. The part that we struggle with in science is WHY they happen. These are two different things.
> ...



Move the goal posts? No... don't think so. Also, don't think I am getting my ass booted. 

You really are a delusional little prick in the mornings, aren't you?


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Oops! He realizes he's getting his ass booted, so it's TIME TO MOVE THE GOALPOSTS!



Why I don't believe in God | Page 13 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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> > Boss said:
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They believed those gods were real and they were wrong, just like you.


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Yes.. .humans have been suffering psychosis for 70k years but managed to do so much more than any other species.


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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> > Boss said:
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And doing more than any other species proves what? Nothing? Oh, ok.


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Let's be clear on something... I cannot prove to you that any God exists.  Do you have a problem comprehending that or something? Because, over and over again, I get this same retort... like you think somehow, I am going to suddenly find a way to do what I can't do. 

We were having a perfectly reasonable conversation about human spiritual belief and how it came about. You've apparently not kept up with the thread. You just want to waddle in and interject your general obnoxiousness. 

I've gone over the argument that humans invented spirituality with two different people and explained how that theory is illogical and irrational. It's fine if you still want to believe it, people believe irrational stuff all the time. I'm here to discuss this or any other idea, not to demand you do something you cannot do.


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Your concession is duly noted.


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Your concession is duly noted.



You can't concede something that was never held. 

You have a problem with logic, don't you?


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## the_human_being (Nov 14, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



Do you really fool yourself into believing anyone at all cares why you don't believe in God?  Really?  LOL!!


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

the_human_being said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> ...


Your inability to formulate a proper response to his comment is duly noted.


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Your concession is duly noted.
> ...


No, logically, spirituality is obviously made up by people who fear death and the unknown. Like you.


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## the_human_being (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> the_human_being said:
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> > Delta4Embassy said:
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Well, frankly Scarlet . . .  Like I said, WHO CARES???


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 14, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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I am sorry you are so feeble and addled that you can't track any part of the conversation.

You aren't so much a whacko as just a putz.


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 14, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
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YOU clearly still haven't seen the light, cup cake.


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

the_human_being said:


> Mudda said:
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You obviously do, you've answered twice so far on this page.


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## the_human_being (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> the_human_being said:
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I get a kick out of rattling the cages of the demented.


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 14, 2015)

the_human_being said:


> Mudda said:
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> > the_human_being said:
> ...



So'd Igor,


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## anotherlife (Nov 14, 2015)

If there is no God, then where do the destroyed go to rest?


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## Mudda (Nov 14, 2015)

anotherlife said:


> If there is no God, then where do the destroyed go to rest?


When I'm destroyed, I usually end up in my bed. Usually.


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## the_human_being (Nov 14, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> the_human_being said:
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> 
> > Mudda said:
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Yuk!  I smell your flesh burning already. TOAST!!


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## Boss (Nov 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Nope. That is an illogical and irrational theory and I illustrated it with an example. You cannot *make up* something and have it *explain* anything unless you're a *crazy* person. Case in point, your disbelief in God. You think God is made up... does God provide any comfort for you or explain anything to you? Of course not, that would be illogical.... crazy. 

God was not made up to explain or console because we can't imagine things that aren't real and have them explain things. It simply defies logic.  Humans HAD to believe first.


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## sealybobo (Nov 20, 2015)

Mudda said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > If there is no God, then where do the destroyed go to rest?
> ...


And what does he mean by destroyed? Does he mean dead?


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## sealybobo (Nov 20, 2015)

anotherlife said:


> If there is no God, then where do the destroyed go to rest?


We don't know what happens to the soul when a person or frog or fly dies. Do you know? What actual scientific evidence do you have our soul is special and lives forever? Humans just wish they live forever. Churches pray on this

Let's do an exercise. Ready? What was your soul doing 13 million years before you were born?


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## sealybobo (Nov 20, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


But religion can explain this. So I suspect there are many other reasons you don't believe.

The woman suicide bomber was a real whore before she found Islam. Then she went the other extreme. Everything in moderation.


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## anotherlife (Nov 20, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > If there is no God, then where do the destroyed go to rest?
> ...


I heard the other day, that according to Buddhist/hinduist tradition, the soul integrates from all kinds of things, including souls of stones, animals, plants, all kinds of objects, to form higher density souls like the human soul.  Then there is the other scale in there too, that is above human, like the Buddha has a few past lives as a few gods.  I think it is also possible that the souls not only integrate but disintegrate too, back into animals, plants, various objects.  This may be too fantastic for the Buddhists to just invent it, I think they must have observed something.


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## OZman (Nov 20, 2015)

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



For a Jewish perspective on this. Zohar: Genesis: Chapter LXXXVII. Kabbalistic Philosophy of the Soul


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## ChrisL (Nov 22, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > anotherlife said:
> ...



That's what I'm wondering too.  I've never heard anyone use that term in such a context before.


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## sealybobo (Nov 22, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


It's a scare tactic. He's trying to put the fear of God in us.

But that's not how convincing someone something is true should work. You should be able to rationally be able to convince me your God exists without resorting to scare me with the fear of hell or that not believing will prevent you from going to heaven.

This tactic might work on them but not me. If you can't prove your God is real fuck you and your fake ass God.

I would have been a fear factor champion because apparently fear is not a factor for me


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## anotherlife (Nov 24, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


It is amazing what becomes of a post when you lose it.  Looks like this time it gained fear tactics.  But no, the question is not moral or morality.  The question is who if not God can give place to everything destroyed.  It is also possible to argue that existence stops at the point of destruction. However in this case, does existence come out of nothing at the point of creation?  And what is the point of creation if we assume no God?


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## sealybobo (Nov 24, 2015)

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


What is our purpose? Maybe there is no purpose? What was the purpose of dinosaurs or the trilobites who ruled the planet before them? If we destroy ourselves and cockroaches rule the planet after we are gone, what is their purpose?

And when our solar system dies, what was the purpose?

And what about your great x 1000 grandparents? 

I will be working a soup kitchen tomorrow. I'm making my life have purpose.


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## ChrisL (Nov 24, 2015)

I think some people have a difficult time with the fact that things happen randomly to random people.  It is not a punishment from a god or gods.  Good people, bad people, religious people, non-religious people.  It really doesn't seem to matter.  They have a hard time accepting that there may be no "higher purpose" and that perhaps nothing exists after death.  I think fear of the unknown and the urge to try and explain things is another factor on why religion exists.  Besides different gods and small differences in different religious beliefs throughout time, they all seem to be based on pretty much the same things.  Man trying to explain things he doesn't understand and fears.


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## sealybobo (Nov 24, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I think some people have a difficult time with the fact that things happen randomly to random people.  It is not a punishment from a god or gods.  Good people, bad people, religious people, non-religious people.  It really doesn't seem to matter.  They have a hard time accepting that there may be no "higher purpose" and that perhaps nothing exists after death.  I think fear of the unknown and the urge to try and explain things is another factor on why religion exists.  Besides different gods and small differences in different religious beliefs throughout time, they all seem to be based on pretty much the same things.  Man trying to explain things he doesn't understand and fears.


And theists want to impose their wishful thinking on us but want us to keep quiet if we don't want to go along.

How about I'll keep my beliefs to myself when they keep their beliefs to themselves. For example, if I want to get an abortion I don't want to hear what their God thinks about it.
From now on when I sneeze and someone says God bless you I'm going to start responding back "who?"


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I think fear of the unknown and the urge to try and explain things is another factor on why religion exists.



A-gain... This is irrational and illogical. If it were a valid hypothesis, you would be able to invent something in your mind that would suffice as an explanation or consolation. You can't. It doesn't work... go ahead and give it a try! You can't make yourself believe questions are answered or fears consoled by imagining something that isn't real. 

Why does everyone continue to ignore this fact? 

Religions exist because humans are trying to explain their spirituality. We've ALWAYS had spirituality. There is no time in human history where spirituality did not exist. It is the driving force of humanity. Everyone has it, even if you don't believe in a deity or religion. It is what compels you to love and have compassion. We have all kinds of ways to define our spirit... our inner self... who we are on the inside. Surely you are not so disconnected that you don't realize these things.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> And theists want to impose their wishful thinking on us but want us to keep quiet if we don't want to go along.
> 
> How about I'll keep my beliefs to myself when they keep their beliefs to themselves. For example, if I want to get an abortion I don't want to hear what their God thinks about it.
> From now on when I sneeze and someone says God bless you I'm going to start responding back "who?"



Theism is a byproduct of spirituality. There are good aspects and bad aspects to religions. Trying to divorce yourself from spirit is futile. Most Nihilists (and that's what you are) live dreadful and depressing lives and die before they turn 65. Failing to nourish your spirit is a death sentence. 

Now... all of that said, the issue of abortion is a societal issue of which the parameters are decided by civilization... not you. We don't get to live in a civilization and behave however we damn well please. You can't kill people who bug you, for instance. It doesn't matter if YOU think that's okay. YOU don't get to decide on your own what rules you follow in society. 

People who are religious in their beliefs are a part of the society you live in and in our country, they are free to exercise their religious beliefs. This includes making laws and governing on the basis of those beliefs... again, it's not up to YOU. There are all kinds of laws that I personally don't like. I don't get to pick and choose which laws to obey.


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I think some people have a difficult time with the fact that things happen randomly to random people.  It is not a punishment from a god or gods.  Good people, bad people, religious people, non-religious people.  It really doesn't seem to matter.  They have a hard time accepting that there may be no "higher purpose" and that perhaps nothing exists after death.  I think fear of the unknown and the urge to try and explain things is another factor on why religion exists.  Besides different gods and small differences in different religious beliefs throughout time, they all seem to be based on pretty much the same things.  Man trying to explain things he doesn't understand and fears.


I wonder how come so many poor uneducated peasant Mexican's believe in God and my ignorant grandmother with a 5th grade education from Greece gets Christianity but I'm not smart enough to get it.  I must be really stupid.  

Or is it that it doesn't take any thought to believe.  Most believers won't even question it.  That's not thought.  That's cognitive dissonance.

the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > And theists want to impose their wishful thinking on us but want us to keep quiet if we don't want to go along.
> ...


Richard Branson is going to die this year?

Famous atheists and their beliefs - CNN.com

Sir Ian McKellen

Andy Rooney age 92

Billy Joel age 66

You are a piece of shit perfect example of an asshole who believes in god and thinks that makes you good but the truth comes out.  Wishing death on someone because they don't share your delusions or because they argue with you.   You'd be a perfect scientologist.  They don't allow any negativity in their lives.  If you call BS on their bs, they just disown you.

Now I will go back to not responding to you.  But I love how a true believer like you can be such an evil prick and honestly think a god talks to you or a heaven is awaiting.  You are a delusional loser, not a Boss.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


strange that four people die in a car crash and the OP gives up God instead of giving up driving.......


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> ...


Do you wish Atheists and Muslims well?  Because as an Atheist, if I believed in God, I would pray for Muslims, Jews and Christians.  I honestly don't care what you all believe as long as we can all get along.

I don't think you will go to hell for believing nonsense but you think we're going to hell for not believing your nonsense.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Because as an Atheist, if I believed in God


you wouldn't......or you wouldn't be an atheist any more.....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> I don't think you will go to hell for believing nonsense but you think we're going to hell for not believing your nonsense.


that pretty much covers it, yes.......I believe you will not be going to the Christian paradise if you refuse to believe there is a Christian god......to be honest I would consider it illogical to think I was going to a place I refused to believe existed, but then, I'm not an atheist so don't ask ME to explain how your mind works.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Do you wish Atheists well?


I would wish you Happy Thanksgiving but I don't have a clue who you would be thanking......


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think you will go to hell for believing nonsense but you think we're going to hell for not believing your nonsense.
> ...



Lets say someone tells me all about Hawaii but because I have never seen any proof of a place I don't believe it exists.  If you could provide some evidence a place exists, maybe I would believe.  But because you can't, until you put me on a plane and send me there, I won't believe it exists.  And neither should you.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


why whine about never having been to Hawaii when you don't believe it exists?.....yet atheists whine all the time that the evil God won't let them in unless they believe in him.......


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Do you wish Atheists well?
> ...


Thankful for my life, my family and friends, my health, my success in life, intelligence, the time I got on this earth.  

Thankful for the food on the table, etc.  Do you think only Christians and Muslims and Jews can celebrate Thanksgiving?  And I've heard many a "I'm thankful for" speeches and no one ever says god.  They are always thankful for the real tangible or physical things they have.


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > PostmodernProph said:
> ...


Agreed!  It makes no sense.  A real God wouldn't care if you believed in him.  Now a church/cult???  That's a completely different story.

_“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”_ – Carl Sagan


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > PostmodernProph said:
> ...



The thread is asking why people do NOT believe, so no it's not whining.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

It's more like the religious people keep coming into the thread and whining about people not believing.    Lol.  I actually had a religious poster come into this thread and put me on ignore because of something I posted, and it was actually pretty mild!    So, religious people, if you cannot handle reading any opinions that run counter to your beliefs or opinions ABOUT your beliefs, and then want to accuse others of "whining" or whatnot, then maybe you just should avoid these types of threads?  Hmm?


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


And if they can't give us good reasons why our reasons are wrong, I guess that means the evidence for God is really weak.  And it isn't like we don't WANT to believe.  We just can't.  I'd like to force myself to believe something that is unbelievable but as hard as I try how can they expect me to believe something I just don't believe?  Then they say that's fine if I don't believe but I should just keep my mouth shut and not ruin their racket?  

You have to really WANT to believe in God to believe in God.  I mean want to even despite it being illogical.  That's wishful thinking and again, cognitive dissonance.  There must be some kind of road block that blocks the god gene from their common sense gene.  The common sense gene should say hey wait a minute when it hears about virgin births but the god gene wants to believe so badly it overrides rational thought process.  Plus if you were brianwashed from age 2 years old, what do you expect.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Do you think only Christians and Muslims and Jews can celebrate Thanksgiving?


I think atheists have no one to thank......Christians, Muslims and Jews do......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Agreed!  It makes no sense.  A real God wouldn't care if you believed in him.


that is illogical.....only an unreal God wouldn't care.....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> The thread is asking why people do NOT believe, so no it's not whining.


I'm talking about those who say "I don't believe in a God who is so evil he makes me believe in him before I can go to heaven".......


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> It's more like the religious people keep coming into the thread and whining about people not believing.    Lol.  I actually had a religious poster come into this thread and put me on ignore because of something I posted, and it was actually pretty mild!    So, religious people, if you cannot handle reading any opinions that run counter to your beliefs or opinions ABOUT your beliefs, and then want to accuse others of "whining" or whatnot, then maybe you just should avoid these types of threads?  Hmm?


I bet religious people hate the invention of the internet.

Internet is a TOOL OF SATAN that destroys belief, study claims

A US computer scientist has released a study claiming to have found out why so many Americans are abandoning their religious faith and says it's the internet's fault.

Downey analyzed data from 20 years of polling by the National Opinion Research Center for its General Social Survey. He found that the number of people citing no religious belief increased from 8 to 18 per cent between 1990 and 2010, and argues the growth of internet use accounts for a large proportion of that.

Another important factor in the reduction of faith, according to the data, is having a college education. 

Internet use is certainly causing religions many problems. Last year the head of the Mormon church in Europe, Hans Mattsson, caused an outcry when he reported that Mormon leaders refused to answer questions raised by greater knowledge of the founder of the church Joseph Smith.

"When members are using the internet, everything is there and they found out a lot of questions about the church history," Mattsson told _The New York Times_. Being a high leader in the church they passed those questions to me and I had to deal with them. We found out the church didn't give me any answers really."

This is not a new problem. The early Catholic church frowned upon translating the Bible into languages other than Latin, ostensibly because this was meddling with the word of god, but arguably also because it's easier to control a flock of parishioners when only the priest can translate life's instruction manual.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> It's more like the religious people keep coming into the thread and whining about people not believing.


oh bullshit.....why would we give a fuck if you believe or not?......


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > The thread is asking why people do NOT believe, so no it's not whining.
> ...


Why would a god be have human characteristics like being petty?  He craves being worshipped?  By us, one tiny little species on one tiny little rock surrounding one tiny little sun?  There are so many other living things in the universe and he's worried about you?


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > It's more like the religious people keep coming into the thread and whining about people not believing.
> ...


Strength in numbers and you are losing members by the day.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> It's more like the religious people keep coming into the thread and whining about people not believing.    Lol.  I actually had a religious poster come into this thread and put me on ignore because of something I posted, and it was actually pretty mild!    So, religious people, if you cannot handle reading any opinions that run counter to your beliefs or opinions ABOUT your beliefs, and then want to accuse others of "whining" or whatnot, then maybe you just should avoid these types of threads?  Hmm?


lol.....religious people should avoid religion boards because atheists need them to criticize what we believe......and you don't know why we consider you irrational......


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Nov 25, 2015)

"Downey analyzed data from 20 years of polling by the National Opinion Research Center for its General Social Survey. He found that the number of people citing no religious belief increased from 8 to 18 per cent between 1990 and 2010, and argues the growth of internet use accounts for a large proportion of that."

Which fails as a classic example of a confusion of correlation and causation fallacy.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> You have to really WANT to believe in God to believe in God.


duh......and you have to want to not believe in him to not believe in him......did someone hit you on the head when you were young?.....


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Nov 25, 2015)

"And if they can't give us good reasons why our reasons are wrong, I guess that means the evidence for God is really weak."

Actually 'evidence' of 'god' as perceived by theists doesn't exist at all.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Silly boob, this is an outstanding analogy. Once in a blue moon you actually stumble upon a good point. It's impossible to show you evidence when you don't believe in what the evidence supports. I can show you postcards of Hawaii... those could be faked. I could bring you back a pineapple from Hawaii... could've come from anywhere. I could get people who've been to tell you about Hawaii.. they could be lying or delusional. 

But I also like the point made by PmP.. You don't wake up in the morning and think... I'm going to the message boards to argue with those Hawaii believers again today! A great example of this is my disbelief in "the grays" (actual aliens walking among us). It's possible because anything is possible but I just don't believe it. Therefore, I am not going to believe any "evidence" you present, I will remain skeptical... but I also won't spend my time coming here to argue with people who do believe that.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Why would a god be have human characteristics like being petty?


he's not....that's simply a mistake you make about him......glad I could clear that up for you......


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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> > sealybobo said:
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Thankful to whom?


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
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lol.....when atheists top 5% give us a whistle......


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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You don't have to be thankful to anyone.  You can just be thankful that things are going well.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

You can be thankful that your family is happy and healthy, that your job is going well, all that kind of stuff.  I feel very thankful for a relatively warm day in November, living in the northeast.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> And if they can't give us good reasons why our reasons are wrong, I guess that means the evidence for God is really weak.


or that your mind is.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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then you don't need a Thanksgiving Day".....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> You can be thankful that your family is happy and healthy, that your job is going well, all that kind of stuff.  I feel very thankful for a relatively warm day in November, living in the northeast.


thankful to your family for being healthy?......thankful to your boss for your job (did you call and tell him you were thankful?.......Did you thank the sun for shining on you and the wind for not blowing hard?......you don't seem to have a handle on how this works......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

if its cold and rainy tomorrow do you celebrate Pissed Off Day instead?......


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You can be thankful that your family is happy and healthy, that your job is going well, all that kind of stuff.  I feel very thankful for a relatively warm day in November, living in the northeast.
> ...



I don't have to thank anyone in particular to feel thankful.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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Nonsense. You have to cherry pick statistics to get to this ridiculous premise. Worldwide, there are more Christians today than any time in human history. In fact, history reveals that back in ancient times before Christianity was popular, there was a concerted effort to kill all the Christian believers in the world. At the time it is estimated there were about 200k. The more they killed the faster Christianity spread. Within 100 years the number skyrocketed to over 6 million. This is what ultimately prompted Charlemagne to embrace Christianity instead of trying to fight it. 

Strength in numbers? Worldwide, there are approximately 5% of the population who identify as Nihilists. That's the belief in nothing. This number is unchanged for thousands of years. Religions may come and go but there has never been a time in human history where a majority of people were non-spiritual. 

In one of the most atheistic countries on the planet, Norway, a survey shows about 44% of the population identify as "atheist" but... when they asked about belief in any kind of spirit or life force beyond the physical, only 29% would go that far. So even in an environment where nearly half the population are self-professed atheists, more than a third of them have to admit they can't discount the possibility of something.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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What do you mean??? Thankful to WHO?  Yourself?


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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You can feel thankful for what you have.  You don't have to be thankful towards anyone.  Don't you understand that?  Sad.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Maybe there is something missing in people who need to religion in order to feel "complete."  Not sure but an interesting theory, I think.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I don't understand what you mean by "thankful" when you won't tell me who you are thankful to. I have not said you can't FEEL thankful. What does that mean? Thankful to WHO? Nature? The Universe? Yourself? WHO are you thankful to?


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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I've already told you.  I'm not going to waste my time.  I feel thankful sometimes.  That's all.  It doesn't have to be directed towards anyone or anything in particular.  I'm just a joyful and happy person most of the time.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

So anyway, I was thinking that a lot of people who are religious or who turn toward religion for comfort or guidance are usually people who have gone through some difficult times.  So maybe it's not that there is something "missing" necessarily, but that they need something that a companion or just life itself cannot provide for them.  This kind of "belief" gives them comfort and peace.  I don't have a problem with that at all.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Maybe there is something missing in people who need to religion in order to feel "complete."  Not sure but an interesting theory, I think.



Well you are correct, many people need religion to feel complete. No argument there. 

But Religion is NOT human spirituality. That is where you are very confused. You continue to tie them both together as one and they are not. 

Chris, do you not ever experience LOVE?  What do you think that is? Can you define it physically? Can you tell me how much amount of love you have for your mother or father? More importantly, can you provide me with any tangible evidence to prove your love exists?


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe there is something missing in people who need to religion in order to feel "complete."  Not sure but an interesting theory, I think.
> ...



It's an instinctual human emotion.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> So anyway, I was thinking that a lot of people who are religious or who turn toward religion for comfort or guidance are usually people who have gone through some difficult times.  So maybe it's not that there is something "missing" necessarily, but that they need something that a companion or just life itself cannot provide for them.  This kind of "belief" gives them comfort and peace.  I don't have a problem with that at all.



And again, I can't argue that some people cling to religion because it gives them peace of mind and comfort. Religions are inventions of man to explain his spiritual connection to something greater than self. 

It seems obvious that the God who compels us to be nice to each other and show compassion is not the same God who tells someone to go out and kill all Jews and Infidels. Religions can contradict one another but they are inventions of man. Human spirituality is not an invention.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Yes, our human spirituality IS instinctual.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Well if it isn't related to a "god" then why don't you explain to me what 'spirituality" is?


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Well I am joyful and happy too... I don't believe in a God who condemns people to hell or calls for me to go out and kill those who don't believe the way I do. Still, when I feel thankful, I know that I am ultimately thankful to "God" or in my case, Spiritual Nature. I know that the LOVE felt in my heart is from my spirit as a human. I don't need a deity to believe that.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


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We are emotional creatures.  Our brains are bigger and capable of more activity than any of the other animals, so we have much more intense feelings in most cases.  We also have dopamine and other chemicals that are coursing through out bodies and pleasure receptors.    Those are reasons why we feel joy, pain, sadness, etc.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I believe there is a mercurial force coursing through our universe which we cannot see or measure with physics. It is by all measures, something metaphysical in nature. It's not supernatural or imaginary, it's very real and very much a part of nature. As humans, we are connected to this force, we don't have a choice. We can only deny it or embrace it. I choose to embrace it and you choose to deny it. Others embrace it and build religions around it. 

I believe this force moves in one direction, that being a positive direction toward goodness and away from evil. My objective mind tells me there is a reason behind that but I don't know know what it is. Could be, it's preparation for my spirit in an afterlife? I don't believe my spirit dies when my physical body dies... why would it? It's not physical. So where does it go and what happens to it when my physical body dies? I have no idea but I strongly suspect this inherent guidance toward goodness and away from evil may have something to do with it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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I deny it because I don't feel it, see it, or have any kind of evidence at all besides some guy on the internet telling me it's so.    Lol.  I don't "embrace" such things.  Sorry.  That's just not who I am.  

I've had some traumatic experiences with loss myself.  I manage to do just fine without any religious beliefs of an afterlife.  I just accept things the way they are.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Nonsense. Many animals have larger brains. In fact, science tells us that size of the brain is not indicative of capability. We are WAY behind many species in terms of what we are capable of feeling. Dogs can tell when there is going to be an earthquake or tornado. They can sense when their human is going to have an epileptic seizure. Other animals experience joy, pain, sadness, etc. These are not unique to humans. 

Isn't it curious that humans seem to be the only species of life who are capable of technology and advancement and also the only species who worship something greater than self? I don't think it's coincidental. Our human spirituality is the source of human inspiration.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Oh good grief, I'm done here.  You are just ridiculous.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Again... do you see or have any evidence of love? There are things we cannot see. Humans are very limited creatures. We have five major senses and we're not the masters of any of them. There are things that see better, hear better, smell better and have a better sense of taste and touch. 96% of our universe is beyond our detection... we know it exists we can't interact with it. 

Yep... people DO manage just fine without religion... I am one of them!


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Oh good grief, I'm done here. You are just ridiculous.



How have I been ridiculous? By not accepting your premise that nothing greater than self exists?


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## anotherlife (Nov 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> anotherlife said:
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I don't really understand the purpose aspect of it.  I think the loss aspect of it is more interesting.  When someone kills you, you go off the grid.  Based on your example, the visitors eating at the soup kitchen are one step before the next stage of drifting off the grid.  I think the important part is that the drift accelerates more when we want to slow it down.  So it does depend on us and it does have a deterministic pattern.  Moreover we are not only at the receiving end of it but the very cause of it too.  So the question remains valid, what/who runs the pattern?  





ChrisL said:


> I think some people have a difficult time with the fact that things happen randomly to random people.  It is not a punishment from a god or gods.  Good people, bad people, religious people, non-religious people.  It really doesn't seem to matter.  They have a hard time accepting that there may be no "higher purpose" and that perhaps nothing exists after death.  I think fear of the unknown and the urge to try and explain things is another factor on why religion exists.  Besides different gods and small differences in different religious beliefs throughout time, they all seem to be based on pretty much the same things.  Man trying to explain things he doesn't understand and fears.



I think the problem is that all the religions and syfy stories don't eliminate the question, even if we decide that they are all wrong.  This is not random, and keeps being a problem.  Our process towards and through the destruction of neighbors and ourselves requires analysis, because it appears that that is what makes it bad both before and during the destruction.  Some mystery, like a homework, where you get a real beating if not doing it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

anotherlife said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
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> > anotherlife said:
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What question is that?  If there is a god or a heaven/hell?


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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> 
> > Oh good grief, I'm done here. You are just ridiculous.
> ...



You are annoying me with your insistence that there is with nothing but "feelings" to back you up.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Oh good grief, I'm done here. You are just ridiculous.
> ...



I'm sorry for saying that.  You have been quite civil, and I apologize for that "ridiculous" comment.  It is your insistence that there is something more to these "feelings" than them simply just being "feelings" that I find to be just a little bit aggravating.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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But there are lots of things other than feelings to back me up. I used love as an example because I figure most people can relate to what love is. Maybe I am wrong? But you've yet to define what love is or how you can measure it physically. 

Signs of human spirituality are present in every human civilization we've ever unearthed. Literally billions and billions of people have given their testimonials to the power of something greater than self. Some of their accounts are quite remarkable and impressive. I can't believe they are ALL full of shit.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Love is an emotion due to dopamine and pleasure receptors in your brain.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I agree that it can seem very aggravating when someone presents an argument you can't defeat or when your arguments are defeated by fact of reality. You say you feel "thankful" but you can't explain this feeling in any fundamental way. You say you feel "love" but you can't explain what causes the feeling or what quantifies it physically. That must be very frustrating for you, I totally get that. 

I've just been trying to get you to understand that there is something greater than self and it doesn't need to be defined by a religious belief or deity. It's inherent human nature and what makes us human. Can you deny that you have an inner spirit of self? The essence of who you are as a human being? If you can, I think you're in complete denial of reality. We all have it whether we believe in a God or not... it's part of who we are.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Then we should be able to give everyone a shot of dopamine and have world peace.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Love is an emotion due to dopamine and pleasure receptors in your brain.



No, what you are describing is what happens physically when we experience love. The same thing happens when we connect with our spiritual nature.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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But you don't present a good argument.  You only THINK you do.  That is what is so annoying.  Lol.  Inner spirit of self?  What does that mean?  A personality?  That is due to my life experiences, how I was raised, etc.


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## anotherlife (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> anotherlife said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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That's only a part of it.  The process of destruction / getting destroyed is the actually observable impact.  Many people seem immune from it, but what is the collateral of that.  Dismissing it would be valid if we could control ourselves about it, but it is most likely safe to say that nobody can achieve that.  What I observe is that most people first cause the destruction of other things / people before they complete their own destruction if at all.  So everyone seems a part of it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Love is an emotion due to dopamine and pleasure receptors in your brain.
> ...



That is not what science says.   

The science of love


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Lol.  It's not that simple.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

Chris... I look at your picture and I see an attractive woman who cares about her appearance to others. I listen to your views and see someone who has compassion and is passionate in her beliefs. I don't believe you are without a spirit because it shows in your appearance and demeanor. God doesn't make junk. 

You are just lost right now and I understand that. I was lost as well for a long time. I'm not trying to "convert" you to some religious belief, just to get you to realize you have a spirit and it's important to recognize it. Failure to nurture your spirit is a death sentence. 

It's OKAY to thank God for your blessings. It doesn't mean you're suddenly going to start reciting Bible verses and fall on the floor in spasms speaking in tongues. You can certainly be a spiritual person without being religious, I am a living example. If I knew you personally, we'd get into all kinds of trouble together, I'd rock your little world with debauchery in every way you can imagine. Spiritually-connected people can be very sensual.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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Everything at that link is showing me what happens physically when we experience love. It does not tell me the source of the love.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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> 
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It should be if what you said is true. If dopamine is the key, we should be able to inject everyone with dopamine and everyone would have love and happiness. Obviously, it isn't that simple.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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There are a bunch of chemicals and receptors and other structures that all work together.  Sometimes, they don't function right which is what we refer to as a "chemical imbalance."


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Chris... I look at your picture and I see an attractive woman who cares about her appearance to others. I listen to your views and see someone who has compassion and is passionate in her beliefs. I don't believe you are without a spirit because it shows in your appearance and demeanor. God doesn't make junk.
> 
> You are just lost right now and I understand that. I was lost as well for a long time. I'm not trying to "convert" you to some religious belief, just to get you to realize you have a spirit and it's important to recognize it. Failure to nurture your spirit is a death sentence.
> 
> It's OKAY to thank God for your blessings. It doesn't mean you're suddenly going to start reciting Bible verses and fall on the floor in spasms speaking in tongues. You can certainly be a spiritual person without being religious, I am a living example. If I knew you personally, we'd get into all kinds of trouble together, I'd rock your little world with debauchery in every way you can imagine. Spiritually-connected people can be very sensual.



Well gee, thanks!  Lol!   

I'm just not sure that you can have "spirituality" without accompanying supernatural type of belief system.  I do certainly make a connection between spirituality and religious beliefs, so maybe you're right.  I'm really not sure what "spirituality" really is though.  I mostly think my feelings are just due to my being human and having a brain that is capable of producing intense feelings and emotions, probably for a variety of different reasons.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> There are a bunch of chemicals and receptors and other structures that all work together. Sometimes, they don't function right which is what we refer to as a "chemical imbalance."



I understand all of that, Chris. It doesn't explain were love comes from. You are describing physical reactions to experiencing love... no argument there. If anything, it is physical evidence that our spirituality is not some imaginary thing we invented but a real tangible thing that is inherent and part of our nature.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Chris... I look at your picture and I see an attractive woman who cares about her appearance to others. I listen to your views and see someone who has compassion and is passionate in her beliefs. I don't believe you are without a spirit because it shows in your appearance and demeanor. God doesn't make junk.
> ...



But it's not supernatural if it's a fundamental part of our nature. It's very much natural. I don't believe in supernatural things either. That's why I can't believe that anything other than spiritual nature created a physical universe.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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'thank' is a verb that always has an object.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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irrational.......you can feel happy......you can even feel tickled pink......but you cannot feel "thankful" without someone to feel "thankful" to.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I just accept things the way they are.


lol.....as do I......however, I believe the way things are included a God.....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Oh good grief, I'm done here.  You are just ridiculous.



???....what specifically in what he said do you find ridiculous?.....


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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Well, I do.    I'm thankful to be alive and to have my good health.  I'm thankful for lots of things.  I realize that a lot of people have it a lot worse than I do, so that makes me feel thankful.  I don't think that's by some "design" by god.  I think there are plenty of good people who live not so good lives probably in other countries or whatever, so I certainly don't think it's because I am "blessed" in any way.  I am lucky compared to some is all.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > Oh good grief, I'm done here.  You are just ridiculous.
> ...



I already talked about that with the poster to whom it was addressed.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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so, by administering dopamine we can cause "love"?......


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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I posted a link that explains all of that.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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more logically, you are happy to be alive and have good health......I'm not saying that you should consider it to be by some gods' design....they may actually have it in for you......my point is, it is irrational for you to use the word "thankful" when you don't believe there is anyone to "thank".......


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## anotherlife (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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Being thankful is not really important.  Praying for the lost is.  
(Not that you asked my opinion but ....)


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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yes I saw that post after I posted mine....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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that post I have not seen.....if "love" is a purely physical reaction we ought to be able to simulate it chemically.........


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

anotherlife said:


> ChrisL said:
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are you thankful for having lost to pray for?.......


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
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The science of love


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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I disagree with your opinion.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > Love is an emotion due to dopamine and pleasure receptors in your brain.
> ...


exactly.....does dopamine cause love or love cause dopamine........


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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????.....it isn't an opinion......its English...........Have you ever in your life seen a sentence "I thank."..........


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I'm just not sure that you can have "spirituality" without accompanying supernatural type of belief system


New Age, Rastafarian, crystal loving, zenned out yoga instructors would disagree with you......


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just not sure that you can have "spirituality" without accompanying supernatural type of belief system
> ...



I consider a lot of that stuff to be kind of "supernatural" as well.  Those crystals and things?  Definitely supernatural beliefs involved there.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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uh, crystals are rocks.....about as natural as you can get......


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
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Do you know anything about that belief in crystals?  People believe that they have "powers."  Lol.  I guess you didn't understand my post.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > PostmodernProph said:
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My neighbor was into those crystal things, so yeah, I'm familiar with that particular belief.  Lol.  She would always want me to hold the crystals and tell her how I feel.  I never really felt anything to be honest.  I'd humor her though, and say, oh yeah.  Cool!


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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I will admit that I have not paid that much attention to their beliefs......do they claim the rocks to have supernatural or natural powers?......logically, since the rocks themselves are natural, it would seem to follow that their "powers" would be natural.......particularly if they believe the powers can be sensed.......


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Have you ever in your life seen a sentence "I thank."..........



Tom asks Huck, "Can you jump across that crick?" 
Hank answers, "I thank!" 

   Happy Thanksgiving!


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
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I have heard the sentence, I am thankful for my health, etc.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > PostmodernProph said:
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thank·ful
ˈTHaNGkfəl/
_adjective_

pleased and relieved.
"they were thankful that the war was finally over"
synonyms: grateful, appreciative, filled with gratitude, relieved
"she was thankful that the evening was over"
expressing gratitude and relief.
"an earnest and thankful prayer"
synonyms: grateful, appreciative, filled with gratitude, relieved
"she was thankful that the evening was over"


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

^^^

So, you see, I can feel pleased and relieved, appreciative and grateful for things that I have without having to "thank" anyone in particular.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> ^^^
> 
> So, you see, I can feel pleased and relieved, appreciative and grateful for things that I have without having to "thank" anyone in particular.


agreed.......you can be pleased, you can be relieved......but you need to be appreciative OF and grateful TO........


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > ^^^
> ...



You can't be thank?  What on earth does that even mean?


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Do you know anything about that belief in crystals? People believe that they have "powers." Lol. I guess you didn't understand my post.



Again, this is a byproduct of our intrinsic and inseparable human spirituality. When you can objectively evaluate this... step away from the idea of religions being right or wrong for a minute and just look at the human condition of abject spirituality, you have to realize we have a deep and abiding connection to something. How else can you rationalize it? Are your friends who believe in power of crystals psychotic or mentally disturbed? Or do they genuinely believe in something? 

I have always been mystified by the pyramids in ancient Egypt and particularly, the ones in Peru. These great works of labor were not done by people who made up stuff. They genuinely had deep-rooted beliefs that were strong, regardless of whether they were right or wrong. Things like Stonehenge... human spirituality at work. Our state as humans is tied to this attribute in a fundamental way that can't be denied. Yet so many "sophisticated" people want to do just that. 

They prefer to believe in some irrational premise that has no basis in logic or fact.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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interesting......this proves my point......


> *Adjective*
> In linguistics, an adjective is a describing word, the main syntactic role of which is to qualify a noun or noun phrase, giving more information about the object signified. Adjectives are one of the English parts of speech, although historically they were classed together with the nouns.



what is the noun that your adjective is qualifying?........in other words, what is the object of your thanks?......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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precisely, without an object, what on earth does it mean, to thank?......


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know anything about that belief in crystals? People believe that they have "powers." Lol. I guess you didn't understand my post.
> ...



Oh, she's not mentally disturbed, just weird and needy.   

I just have a difficult time believing in things like that are true.  I see no evidence.  I've held the crystals.    To me, it is just silly.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> ^^^
> 
> So, you see, I can feel pleased and relieved, appreciative and grateful for things that I have without having to "thank" anyone in particular.



What he is trying to get you to understand is, you have to have an object of your gratitude. If you are grateful, who are you grateful to? Wal-mart for starting Black Friday early? The in-laws for staying at a hotel this year? Your boss for that $100 gift certificate? If you are thankful, it must include some object of your thanks. 

It's a wonder it hasn't become politically incorrect to observe Thanksgiving Day.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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Thankful, describing what you are thankful for, not WHOM.  Lol.  I'm sorry, but you are just not nearly as clever as you seem to think you are, but keep the faith!


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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No, you do not.  If that was the case, then I would not be allowed to feel thankful, yet I do, and it is not towards anyone.  I am grateful and thankful for things.


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## Boss (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Well, it is to me too... but so is the tradition of drinking some wine in small cup and eating a bland cracker, but people do it and believe they are doing something very important. The point is, it's human spirituality that can't be denied. We're spiritual creatures and we can't help that... just who we are.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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That isn't how you used the word originally.  You used it incorrectly.  Lol.  I can certainly be thankful without thanking anyone.  That is just a fact.  Sorry if it bothers you, but you are starting to become a pest, really.  Like a mosquito.


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## ChrisL (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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And like I've said already, some people need that, and some people do not.


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > You have to really WANT to believe in God to believe in God.
> ...


I would love nothing more than to believe but from what I see it's made up.

That being said, the soup kitchen was of course run by Christians. Very nice people and a very nice program they run. 

My nephews were amazed how I walked right in and immediately got everyone talking. The people in need were all black ex cons, alcoholics and drugs, etc. The one guy taught all the kids we brought how to play dominos. We talked politics, etc. 

I really think it was a good experience for us and the people in need.


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

Boss said:


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But you come here to argue its true. Why?


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> sealybobo said:
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> 
> > And if they can't give us good reasons why our reasons are wrong, I guess that means the evidence for God is really weak.
> ...


It takes a lot more intelligence to figure out God doesn't exist than to swallow the lie and not question things that can't be true.

It's why the peasants in mexico are very religious. Besides needing God to cope, they aren't that smart. Mexico is proof they use religion to control the masses. Otherwise they wouldn't cope they'd fight to change their situation. The words cope and change are directly opposite not the same.


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## sealybobo (Nov 25, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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You can be thankful for your job/life without thanking your boss/God. Atheists are self employed. We don't have a boss.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 26, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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if no one gave you what you are thankful for, there is no one to thank, thus thanks would be meaningless.......if someone did give it to you, they would be the one to give thanks to......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 26, 2015)

sealybobo said:


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lol.....as I recall you told us you decided God didn't exist when your friends made fun of you while you were drunk......lots of intelligence......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 26, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Atheists are self employed. We don't have a boss.


interesting......no atheists in Fortune 500 companies........reassuring, but is the claim credible?.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 26, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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/shrugs.....except I haven't used it incorrectly.......the fact that you consider yourself "thankful" though you deny the existence of One to thank merely shows you haven't completely thought through the concept of "atheism" yet.......part and parcel of why I consider atheists to be truly irrational..........


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 26, 2015)

sealybobo said:


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nice......but it doesn't explain why you choose to believe its all made up......


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## sealybobo (Nov 26, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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Huh? People are thankful for what they have, even if they aren't sure how they got so lucky. I'm thankful I wasn't born during the black plague. Should I thank God for that? Then the people who died of it should curse God for it. You can't have it both ways.


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## sealybobo (Nov 26, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
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I guess I can totally see how a Christian or Muslim would be giving thanks to God for what theyve been blessed with. But as an atheist I guess we just don't know why we were lucky enough to be born in this day and age but we are thankful for it. If it was a gods doing awesome thank God!


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## Boss (Nov 26, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Huh? People are thankful for what they have, even if they aren't sure how they got so lucky. I'm thankful I wasn't born during the black plague. Should I thank God for that? Then the people who died of it should curse God for it. You can't have it both ways.



Why is this not computing in your brain? No one said people can't be thankful. No one said people can't be thankful FOR things. That has nothing to do with what was said, so why do you continue to think that's the argument?  

When you display gratitude (i.e.; give thanks) you have to express gratitude TO an object because it's an adverb. It makes no rational sense otherwise. Who are you thanking? Imagine if you were watching the music awards show and Jazzy Z won and stepped up to the mic and said... I would like to thank!  IF that was all he said, you'd think he's on drugs or something because it makes no sense until something else follows. 

So whenever you say that you are "thankful" there has to be an object to apply that adverb to. Whatever you are thankful FOR is not the object of your thanks because that doesn't make any rational sense. If Jazzy Z says "I am thankful to this award for being an award I am thankful for..." again, you'd think he must be on drugs. 

Are you on drugs?


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## sealybobo (Nov 26, 2015)

I'm thankful for my family, fans and my manager. And my health. I'm lucky.


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## Boss (Nov 26, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> I'm thankful for my family, fans and my manager. And my health. I'm lucky.



I know what you are thankful FOR... what are you thanking? 

Karma?


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 26, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thankful for my family, fans and my manager. And my health. I'm lucky.
> ...


his lucky stars.......


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Huh? People are thankful for what they have, even if they aren't sure how they got so lucky. I'm thankful I wasn't born during the black plague. Should I thank God for that? Then the people who died of it should curse God for it. You can't have it both ways.
> ...



I think you must be on drugs.  You can be thankful for things you have and have to thank anyone.  Now, how many more stupid ridiculous arguments are you going to come up with to argue about semantics?  You aren't convincing any of us.  Sorry.  

thank·ful
ˈTHaNGkfəl/
_adjective_

pleased and relieved.
"they were thankful that the war was finally over"
synonyms: grateful, appreciative, filled with gratitude, relieved
"she was thankful that the evening was over"
expressing gratitude and relief.
"an earnest and thankful prayer"
synonyms: grateful, appreciative, filled with gratitude, relieved
"she was thankful that the evening was over"


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thankful for my family, fans and my manager. And my health. I'm lucky.
> ...



Thankful is another way of saying "relieved" too.  Now, get with the program and stop acting foolish.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Brainwashed.  These people have been brainwashed.  Ever see that creepy commercial for some religious music CD where they sing "God Is Watching Us" as they slowing sway from side to side, with their faces pointed up and eyes closed.  Holy shit!  That is some creepy shit, man!    One of the creepiest commercials I've ever seen.


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## Sbiker (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Brainwashed.  These people have been brainwashed.  Ever see that creepy commercial for some religious music CD where they sing "God Is Watching Us" as they slowing sway from side to side, with their faces pointed up and eyes closed.  Holy shit!  That is some creepy shit, man!    One of the creepiest commercials I've ever seen.



Is it bad to be brainwashed? No doubts, no thoughts, only stamps and endless happiness?


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Sbiker said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Brainwashed.  These people have been brainwashed.  Ever see that creepy commercial for some religious music CD where they sing "God Is Watching Us" as they slowing sway from side to side, with their faces pointed up and eyes closed.  Holy shit!  That is some creepy shit, man!    One of the creepiest commercials I've ever seen.
> ...



The saying "ignorance is bliss" is very true, I think.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)




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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)




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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Brainwashed.  These people have been brainwashed.  Ever see that creepy commercial for some religious music CD where they sing "God Is Watching Us" as they slowing sway from side to side, with their faces pointed up and eyes closed.  Holy shit!  That is some creepy shit, man!    One of the creepiest commercials I've ever seen.


Jesus loves me this I know because the bible tells me so is the chant that creeps me out.

Mohammad talked to God this I know because the Koran says so.

All Christian denominations are made up this I know because logic and my brain tell me so.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Brainwashed.  These people have been brainwashed.  Ever see that creepy commercial for some religious music CD where they sing "God Is Watching Us" as they slowing sway from side to side, with their faces pointed up and eyes closed.  Holy shit!  That is some creepy shit, man!    One of the creepiest commercials I've ever seen.
> ...



I find "God is Watching Us" to be a bit more creepy.  Please don't watch me, God.  It's creepy.    Lol.


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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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If so many of us have a problem with bossolicism maybe it doesn't make as much sense as he thinks. But it makes perfect sense to him.

Reminds me of my dad. He is stuck on the idea there has to be a God because the body and world is made too perfectly. Never mind the body and world aren't perfect. He explains that this God made the universe but doesn't micromanage it.

And if a kid gets cancer, maybe the parents did something wrong like smoke during pregnancy.

He doesn't realize "it must be god" is a stretch.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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How do Christians believe that yet masturbate anyways? I couldn't even do it if a person was watching.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
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  Voyeurism.


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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


>


God came and visited moses, sent his son, talked to Noah Mohammad and Joseph Smith but today all he does today is show up like this?

Have these people ever made up what clouds look like? Hey, that one looks like a car. That one looks like a dog.

Omg the same people or mentality think an angel saved them or swear they so a ghost.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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We've been through this. I know what the dictionary says. If you are grateful or appreciative, those are also adjectives that apply to an object of gratitude. Can the object of your gratitude not be stated? SURE!  

I can say that I am in love... doesn't mean much by itself, does it? If you have no more information, you have no idea what I mean. I can say it... nothing wrong with it... I can insist that I am in love and I don't need to tell you what or whom I am in love with. 

"She was thankful the evening was over."  Who or what is she thankful to? We know what she is thankful for-- the evening being over. No one is arguing that. But if she has implied she is grateful or appreciative, there has to be something she credits. Otherwise, it is pointless and makes no sense. Who or what is she thanking? Does she have to say it? NO!


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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It sure can.  If I almost got hit by a car yesterday, I would be "thankful" that it didn't happen.  Makes perfect sense to me.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

I would feel happy, glad, relieved or "thankful."


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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You need to stop this now.  Just stop.  You are beginning to sound like you have a serious learning disability or something.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Who are you thankful to?  Your guardian angel?


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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You are confusing "to thank" with "thankful."  Two completely different things.  Thankful is more of an emotion.  To thank is an action.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

You see, I'm not "thanking" anyone.  I don't have to thank anyone to "feel" thankful, or relieved, or glad.  If I almost got hit by a car but didn't, I might also feel lucky.  

Now, what is this little exercise in semantics proving?


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> You need to stop this now. Just stop. You are beginning to sound like you have a serious learning disability or something.



No, there is no learning disability, just stubbornness. You and silly boob keep insisting you can be thankful to some mysterious unnamed object that you won't define. I'm simply trying to get to the bottom of things. What or who are you thanking? You keep insisting that you don't have to tell me and you're correct, you don't have to name the object of your thanks.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You need to stop this now. Just stop. You are beginning to sound like you have a serious learning disability or something.
> ...



I've TOLD you at least a half dozen times, I feel thankful to nobody in particular.  Okay?  Can you deal with that or not?


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You need to stop this now. Just stop. You are beginning to sound like you have a serious learning disability or something.
> ...


Don't worry about Bossy, he's confused. He believes in god but thinks he doesn't. Go figure.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I've not confused anything. Thankful means full of thanks.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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So when you say you're thankful, you don't really mean anything?


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Now you know what it's like talking to you.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You need to stop this now. Just stop. You are beginning to sound like you have a serious learning disability or something.
> ...



How about this for an explanation?  I am thankful that was I lucky enough to avoid serious injury or death.  There.  Your problem is solved.  Now, can we get back to talking about the more interesting aspects of "beliefs" and why some of us do not believe?  Please.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
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I've not ever said I don't believe in God. I don't believe in an invisible man on a cloud wearing a white robe with a white beard and speaking in the voice of Charlton Heston. My God is not conventional and doesn't have humanistic attributes. It's beyond physical and above human emotions. It's not supernatural, it's spiritual energy of which we are ALL connected to as human beings. 

You're the one who is confused, along with Chris and silly boob. You've somehow convinced yourself that the ONLY possible God that could ever exist is the Christian incarnation of God. Don't ask me why you're so narrow minded, I have no idea.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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So you thank the power of luck and random chance???


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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


>


This one pretty much sums up our debate here on the subject. We can explain it to guys like boss all day they're never going to get it.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> How about this for an explanation? I am thankful *that...*



Again, no one is questioning what you are thankful *FOR*. 

What or who are you thanking?


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
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> ...



AGAIN---  I do not care what a CHRISTIAN has to say about CHRISTIAN GOD!


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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I'm agnostic, so you fail again. And you believe in the invisible, no-proof theory, which is god by another name. Just as long as you realize that you're just as delusional as those whom you mock for thanking their invisible MrBig.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > How about this for an explanation? I am thankful *that...*
> ...


He wants you to thank his invisible energy that he has no proof for. Just get it over with.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> I'm agnostic, so you fail again. And you believe in the invisible, no-proof theory, which is god by another name. Just as long as you realize that you're just as delusional as those whom you mock for thanking their invisible MrBig.



96% of the universe is "invisible" to physical science.


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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Yes! 

And remember boss it is you religious people who cherry pick what you want to believe. The Muslims made up their own story.

So we don't only deny the existence of Christianity. They are just one man made up thing. Your generic God is a little more plausible but not much.

Because without the organized religion you REALLY have no evidence.

I suspect the original humans that made up God made up your kind of God and when that wasn't enough to convince that's when moses made up the story of a visit.


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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > I'm agnostic, so you fail again. And you believe in the invisible, no-proof theory, which is god by another name. Just as long as you realize that you're just as delusional as those whom you mock for thanking their invisible MrBig.
> ...


Yea but blow into your hand. Did you feel that? There are more senses than sight. The air is there my friend.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > I'm agnostic, so you fail again. And you believe in the invisible, no-proof theory, which is god by another name. Just as long as you realize that you're just as delusional as those whom you mock for thanking their invisible MrBig.
> ...


It's invisible to our present detection methods. Scientists are working to correct that.

So you're saying that your god is Dark Matter and Dark Energy?


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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NEVER!!!


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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> > Mudda said:
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96% of the universe is undetectable by any of our physical senses. Look at your hand... do you see, hear, feel, taste or smell the particles of dark matter going through it?


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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No they're not, they can't.  You can't evaluate or measure something that can't be isolated and observed. The only reason we know dark matter exists is because of math. 

I am not saying God is dark matter and dark energy, just giving you an example that is beyond our physical comprehension.  It makes up... not 20% or 50%... but 96% of our universe.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> And remember boss it is you religious people who...



But I am not RELIGIOUS... do you have peanut butter in your ears today?


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> I suspect the original humans that made up God made up your kind of God...



Well, you have shown no evidence that humans made up God and it simply defies logic. We've been through all of this... you cannot imagine something that isn't real and have it explain anything unless you're a crazy person. IF you could, then just start believing in the God you don't believe is real! All your questions should automatically be answered by doing that! So obviously, you are living proof that humans are incapable of doing that... yet that's your argument.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

I find discussing the history of religion and theories on how it came to be (other than the religious people's theories of course - lol) much more interesting than arguing about whether or not there is actually a God or gods.  I don't believe in religions, but I find it to be a fascinating topic.  I find the fact that so many people believe in it to be fascinating too.  I think of it almost like a form of "mass hysteria."  Not to mention, "beliefs" are pounded into your head from the time you are a baby in a lot of cases, and you are told if you don't believe, this or that will happen, so it's very scary for us "nonbelievers" or "doubters" to actually come forward and say we are different and we don't believe.  We know there are going to be people who "hate us" for feeling that way.  Call us "demons", etc.


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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > And remember boss it is you religious people who...
> ...


Some days you worship Jesus. I've seen it. You are boss cherry picker.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Because without the organized religion you REALLY have no evidence.



Human spirituality has existed for as long as humans have been civilized. Religion came much later and is evidence of strong and abiding human spiritual connection. Humans DID invent Religion, they did NOT invent human spirituality. That's why you have no evidence it was invented.


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## sealybobo (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect the original humans that made up God made up your kind of God...
> ...


You are living example of exactly how humans invented God.

Watching you is like going back in time.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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He is one annoying bloke, isn't he?


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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I worship positive spiritual energy. I think the message and teachings of Jesus was probably one of the most profound things to ever happen to mankind. I find nothing offensive or undesirable about what Jesus taught. His message is pure love and forgiveness.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I find discussing the history of religion and theories on how it came to be (other than the religious people's theories of course - lol) much more interesting than arguing about whether or not there is actually a God or gods.  I don't believe in religions, but I find it to be a fascinating topic.  I find the fact that so many people believe in it to be fascinating too.  I think of it almost like a form of "mass hysteria."  Not to mention, "beliefs" are pounded into your head from the time you are a baby in a lot of cases, and you are told if you don't believe, this or that will happen, so it's very scary for us "nonbelievers" or "doubters" to actually come forward and say we are different and we don't believe.  We know there are going to be people who "hate us" for feeling that way.  Call us "demons", etc.



I can agree with a lot of what you and others say about religions. They can be awful and cause all kinds of turmoil... but they can also do great things for humanity. It's a mixed bag. I don't belong to any organized religion or adhere to any religious dogma. I think anything man-made is inherently flawed. I've had religious people call me an Atheist because I rejected their incarnation of God. It doesn't bother me but I don't consider myself an Atheist. I'm also not Agnostic... those people are even dumber than Atheists. At least the Atheist knows what he believes. 

In conversing with you, I see a person who is somewhat lost in terms of connection to her spirituality and that concerns me. You are too much of a sweetheart to ignore and deny your spirit. You don't have to be religious to be spiritual. Your fear is that embracing your spirituality will lead you to religious beliefs which you don't agree with. So you are sort of like a spiritual anorexic. I can tell you, as someone who is not religious or trying to 'convert' you, that your life is much better and well-rounded when you are in touch with your spiritual self.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

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So you think that scientists came upon DM and DE and said to themselves: naw, let's not try to solve this puzzle? Ummm... no. 
And it's not "beyond our physical comprehension". Scientists will figure it out. But it looks like it might be beyond YOUR physical comprehension.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> *I worship positive spiritual energy*.


Making you religious. Now you know.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


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I didn't say anything about scientists not trying to solve puzzles. It's just that, the more they try to solve this one, the more it seems to indicate a Creator or something that physical nature cannot explain. 

DE and DM most certainly ARE beyond our physical comprehension in terms of physical science. We can't observe or measure it directly. The ONLY reason we know it's there is because math says it has to be there.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > *I worship positive spiritual energy*.
> ...



You worship self... you are religious too.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


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You're either projecting or speculating. Again, with no proof.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


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If there's something there, scientists will eventually build the right kind of detector.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> If there's something there, scientists will eventually build the right kind of detector.



LMAO... you don't really understand physics, do you?


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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> > If there's something there, scientists will eventually build the right kind of detector.
> ...


OH NO!!! RUN!!! Bossy is about to explain physics!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


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How can you build a detector to detect something that just goes through the equipment?


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## Meriweather (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> If there's something there, scientists will eventually build the right kind of detector.



Have you considered the detector is within each individual?


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Meriweather said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > If there's something there, scientists will eventually build the right kind of detector.
> ...


You have a built-in detector for Dark matter?

The only built-in detector I have is for bullshit. And it just went off.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


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That's up to scientists to figure out. In time, they will.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


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In time they will defy physics? 

I think the *faith* is strong with you!


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


>


and people wonder why I think atheists are irrational......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> It sure can.  If I almost got hit by a car yesterday, I would be "thankful" that it didn't happen.  Makes perfect sense to me.


really?......who to.....all the people who drove that didn't hit you?......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> You see, I'm not "thanking" anyone.  I don't have to thank anyone to "feel" thankful, or relieved, or glad.  If I almost got hit by a car but didn't, I might also feel lucky.
> 
> Now, what is this little exercise in semantics proving?


that you are wrong about being thankful?.....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 27, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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I think its funny you think your arguments are rational.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


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he's very superstitious.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


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...said the man full of faith......


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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I think you are a VERY confused individual.    I really don't have anything to discuss with you.  Bye now!


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I find discussing the history of religion and theories on how it came to be (other than the religious people's theories of course - lol) much more interesting than arguing about whether or not there is actually a God or gods.  I don't believe in religions, but I find it to be a fascinating topic.  I find the fact that so many people believe in it to be fascinating too.  I think of it almost like a form of "mass hysteria."  Not to mention, "beliefs" are pounded into your head from the time you are a baby in a lot of cases, and you are told if you don't believe, this or that will happen, so it's very scary for us "nonbelievers" or "doubters" to actually come forward and say we are different and we don't believe.  We know there are going to be people who "hate us" for feeling that way.  Call us "demons", etc.
> ...



I appreciate your concern.  Thank you.   

Maybe you're right.    I don't really feel that I need to have spirituality or anything like that in my life though.  To be honest, I really don't even know what "spirituality" might be other than being related to feelings and emotions.


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## Mudda (Nov 27, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
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Faith is the belief in something unprovable. The total opposite of science.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


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Why do you think everyone has to worship something?  I don't really think I "worship" anything.


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## Moonglow (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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They can't understand why some people don't need an invisible fairy to pray to...


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Moonglow said:


> ChrisL said:
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They don't want to understand.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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Well it's not feelings and emotions but feelings and emotions often are rooted in your inner spirit. There is a connection but it's sort of the other way around from your thinking. A healthy connection to your spiritual self helps to regulate and control your emotions. You find that things don't overwhelm you and you can better manage your feelings in a crisis. It gives you an inner strength you don't otherwise have... it's really a hard thing to explain to someone who is disconnected spiritually. 

As far as feeling like you need it... Do you feel like you "need" the most exquisite slice of cheesecake you ever had in your life? I don't feel like I "need" my spiritual connection but I can't imagine not having it. So it's not something you'll ever really feel like you need but once you've experienced it you'll not be interested in neglecting it. A strong connection to your spiritual self makes you a more centered and well-rounded person as a whole. It enhances your life in ways you cannot understand until you've experienced it. 

The main point I am making is, you don't have to be religious to be spiritual. I meet a lot of people who are disconnected spiritually because they have been scared away by religion. It's a shame because many times their lives are a hot mess and they don't understand why. Very often, they have this feeling inside that something is missing and they spend their lives searching in vain for it through drugs, alcohol, promiscuous sex, bad relationships, self-gratification or living in the moment. But the need is never met, the hole is never filled. They put on a happy face but they are miserable and dying inside and it's really sad to me.


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## ChrisL (Nov 27, 2015)

Boss said:


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Well, that doesn't describe me at all.  Lol.    If I want something like a piece of cheesecake, I will have it.  I guess I'm just different than you, huh?


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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You just expressed your faith that scientists will someday discover how to defy physics. Dark Matter and Dark Energy exists and we know it exists because math says it has to exist and math is not a theory. However, aside from math, we cannot prove it exists. Physicists will sheepishly admit that DM and DE are pretty much "metaphysical" in nature. We can't interact with it, we don't have any physical way to do so, nor will we ever create one.


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## Boss (Nov 27, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Well, that doesn't describe me at all.  Lol.    If I want something like a piece of cheesecake, I will have it.  I guess I'm just different than you, huh?



Oh, I know it doesn't seem to describe you at all... just going by the little I know of you from your posting here. But that's why I find it hard to believe you're devoid of spirit as a person. That said, I think you are totally ignoring your inner spirit in defiance of religious beliefs which you have associated with spirituality. In the long term, this is not healthy and actually cheats you out of your true potential as a human being. 

I don't think you are much different from me at all. I think you and I are very much alike but you are just not connecting to your own spirituality. I can't force you to do that, it's something you have to do on your own. I think the fact that you are curious enough to engage in these threads speaks volumes.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 27, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
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> > Mudda said:
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really?.....if scientists have not yet figured something out, how do you prove that in time they will?......is that not something unprovable.....that is, faith?.....


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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> > PostmodernProph said:
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You just made something else up. I think that scientist will probably figure it out, that's not faith that's reality. If they never figure it out, I don't really care, I'm just thinking that they probably will. Not faith that they will, but that they might and likely will. No faith required. Unlike you, who has faith that "nor will we ever create one", which is unprovable/just plain wrong because you have no clue what humans might do a million years from now...


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
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They MIGHT and LIKELY WILL figure it out. No faith required. Feel better now?


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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You have yet to demonstrate that your spirituality is real or affects anyone in any way. What you have is a theory, and a pretty lame one at that.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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*I think that scientist will probably figure it out, that's not faith that's reality.*

Uhm... bro... that IS faith!  It's reality of your faith!


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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If you believe in the god of the bible, then you "worship" him. Worship is basically "honour shown to an object", the object in this case being your invisible Big Guy.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> They *MIGHT* and *LIKELY* WILL



*FAAAAITH!! *


*faith*

The *reasoning of beliefs hoped true by the proof of things*, such as philosophy, that are without the real evidence of sight, sound, and touch.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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If i say that I have faith that god exists, it's not "probably" or "might", it's for sure. 
And I'm going on past scientific discoveries, where scientists just keep looking until they find the correct solution, so my expectations are based on something real, not on some made-up nonsense.
Sorry, you lose.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You have yet to demonstrate that your spirituality is real or affects anyone in any way. What you have is a theory, and a pretty lame one at that.



~100k years of human history.   Case closed.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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No... Your FAITH is still based on FAITH.  That never changes. The fact is, you have FAITH in Science just the same as someone else may have FAITH in God.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > They *MIGHT* and *LIKELY* WILL
> ...


Your phrase is an oxymoron: you can't have proof of something that has no real evidence.
Sorry, you fail again.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You have yet to demonstrate that your spirituality is real or affects anyone in any way. What you have is a theory, and a pretty lame one at that.
> ...


So if we believe in Santa Claus for at least 100k years, he's then declared real? Ummm... no.
Sorry, you fail miserably again. Case closed.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> If you believe in the god of the bible, then you "worship" him. Worship is basically "honour shown to an object", the object in this case being your invisible Big Guy.



I don't believe in the God of the Bible. I have respect for people who do believe in that God, as long as they are promoting and advocating positive spiritual energy through it.  If they are killing people and promoting hatred and intolerance, I have no respect for them. 

The God that I worship is Spiritual Nature.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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Bolding the word "faith" makes you fail even more.
Faith is the belief in something unprovable, unlike science.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > If you believe in the god of the bible, then you "worship" him. Worship is basically "honour shown to an object", the object in this case being your invisible Big Guy.
> ...


Making your god just as made-up as all the others.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > Mudda said:
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If you believe for 100k years that Santa Clause really exists and are willing to die for that belief and refuse to ever allow that belief to die and it's inherent in 95% of the population throughout that time... then YES!


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Faith is the belief in something unprovable....
*I think that scientist will probably figure it out.*


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Take it up with American Heritage, Merriam Webster and Dictionary.com ...I just copied and pasted.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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Wow! Really? I had you pegged higher than that mentally. 
Sorry, I failed badly.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Making your god just as made-up as all the others.



Where is your scientific proof (or even, evidence) that humans made up spirituality?


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
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Well let's turn this back around to objective scientific evaluation. If we studied the behavior of salmon for thousands and thousands of years and we noticed they sometimes swim upstream but we don't understand why they do this... is it "scientific" to rationally conclude they just made up the ritual out of fear or in order to console themselves?


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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Based on something real, past scientific discoveries. Anyways, the word :faith" doesn't always have the exact same meaning, like if I say "I have faith in my brother to get it right...". In this instance, having faith means that I think that there's a good chance that he'll get it right, not that my brother is unprovable, or that his success his unprovable. Is English not your first language?


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Making your god just as made-up as all the others.
> ...


Religion.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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You're arguing from the intelligence-perspective of a walnut. I can't answer that. Ask a walnut.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Unlike you, who has faith that "nor will we ever create one", which is unprovable/just plain wrong because you have no clue what humans might do a million years from now...



I don't think humans will be here in a million years. In fact, we're beating the odds to be here this long.

We will never be able to create any physical apparatus to measure something that doesn't interact with physical matter. You may as well be wishing for a machine to detect God or spirits. Do you think that will one day be possible?  

FAITH is the belief in something that isn't proven. You've expressed faith that science will someday answer all the questions regarding dark energy and matter. But somehow, you don't see that as faith. You believe in something that isn't proven, but you don't think that is faith. Weird.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Well no.. Religion didn't precede spirituality, it was the other way around. Humans were exhibiting spiritual beliefs LONG before any recorded evidence of organized religion.  Come on now, you need to be showing me some SCIENCE here!  Not your *EMOTIVE FAITH! *


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You're arguing from the intelligence-perspective of a walnut. I can't answer that. Ask a walnut.



Well if that is the case, you are being completely outwitted and outclassed by a walnut... how does that feel?


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Huh??? No, I posted the definition in English. If you think there is "a good chance" of something, that is FAITH.  If you think that something is not provable... that is also FAITH. ANY belief you have that isn't proven at the moment you have the belief, is FAITH.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Based on something real, past scientific discoveries.



You have nothing that is "real" or based on past science to suggest that we can ever build a physical detector to measure something that defies physical principles. As I said, Dark Matter simply passes through your physical detector, whatever it is. Therefore, your physical detector is useless.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Unlike you, who has faith that "nor will we ever create one", which is unprovable/just plain wrong because you have no clue what humans might do a million years from now...
> ...


You keep putting words in my mouth to make me fit into your neat little world. I said that scientists will probably, but maybe not, find a second way, after mathematics, to detect DM and DE. More faith required.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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> Mudda said:
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Religion and spirituality are two pockets in the same pair of pants. No need to go apeshit about it.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You're arguing from the intelligence-perspective of a walnut. I can't answer that. Ask a walnut.
> ...


I noticed that you cut out your previous post from this mini-thread. That says a lot. 

And no, I don't dumb-down that far.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


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A good chance is just playing the odds. Ever been in a casino? Played the horses? If you go in betting on faith, you're done.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Based on something real, past scientific discoveries.
> ...


Physical detectors at present are useless, you don't know what will happen in the future. At least admit that you can't predict the future. C'mon, I KNOW you can do that.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


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No, I quoted you accurately and gave you the definition of faith and now you're just being silly. 

You did not say "probably, but maybe not" originally. That is new. So your unshakable faith in science has now been shaken and all I did was give you a definition of faith. 

And, science already has a second way... gravity. That's why the math told them DE and DM must exist.... because of the gravity it creates. That's how they came up with "96%" for something they can't actually 'physically' measure or observe. They can measure the atomic weight of every atom contained in all the physical matter of the universe, but this only accounted for about 4% of the amount of gravity. They knew, because of the math, something else was responsible for 96% of the universe. In fact, it is what is holding our entire physical universe together like some kind of magical cosmic gel.  

So when people say they don't believe in God or Spiritual Nature because they can't see it or observe it, and there is no physical proof it exists... this paradox always comes to mind. There are known things in science which scientists cannot explain with contemporary physics.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> A good chance is just playing the odds. Ever been in a casino? Played the horses? If you go in betting on faith, you're done.



Any bet you ever can make is made on faith.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Oh  you mean the walnut-brained questions about Santa Claus that I was addressing with Science? Sorry, I figured you already knew what you had said.  And again, if I am the intelligence-perspective of a walnut and I am schooling your ass on both science AND faith... what does that make you? A peanut?


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Well I don't profess to predict the future.. I have faith that physical science won't figure out how to examine things which don't interact with physical nature in any direct way. I also have faith that we won't time travel into the future or past. I don't know that my faith is correct, it's just what I believe.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

On the other hand... God might come one day and say, "Silly me! When I created you 100k years ago, I forgot to turn on a few switches which enable you to experience 96% of this place... let me take care of that and then you will see what all you've been missing!"  ...I suppose THAT could happen.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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Dream on. You have nothing.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > A good chance is just playing the odds. Ever been in a casino? Played the horses? If you go in betting on faith, you're done.
> ...


No, you're playing the stats, meaning the odds, with a little luck thrown in. People pray to win but that is useless.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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This is your problem on this board, you obsessively attack, like a dog on a bone, going round and round on the same points because you lose them every time, so you come back again and again to make shit up and keep going. Have fun.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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Then you'd be wrong. Science makes new discoveries all the time. You can try to live in the dark if you want, but the rest of the world will pass you by.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


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You may be playing the stats but you are still operating on faith. In fact, that is always what a bet is... your faith vs. the faith of whom you are betting with. Are you really this dumb? You still don't understand what faith means?


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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Yes, physical science discovers things about the physical universe all the time. That's how DM and DE were discovered. What physical science can't do is evaluate things outside of the confines of physics. 

You can say that "you'd be wrong" and apply that to some faith you have in what the future holds... you have no way to know the future either.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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If I'm dumb, it's for talking to you for so long.

You've lost so badly, that now you're descending into insults. Predictable. Not faith.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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Hey, you're the one who started with the insults by comparing my intellect to a walnut... are you saying you were losing badly? I mean, I totally agree... you were getting your ass kicked pretty good but I usually don't get my opponent to admit that. 

Prediction (like betting) is based on FAITH!


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

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you abandoned your faith rather quickly.......such a weak faith you had.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Anyways, the word :faith" doesn't always have the exact same meaning, like if I say "I have faith in my brother to get it right...". In this instance, having faith means that I think that there's a good chance that he'll get it right, not that my brother is unprovable, or that his success his unprovable. Is English not your first language?


actually that IS the exact same meaning.....you believe your brother will get it right even though it could never be proved.....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

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religion is proof that humans made up religions......spirituality is WHY humans made up religions.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Then you'd be wrong


in light of the discussion can you prove that or are you just playing with statistics?......


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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You're example was retarded.

My betting is based on probabilities, and past experience with betting, past experience of a certain horse or team... 
Your betting is based on blind faith, I get it.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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I've been saying the same thing all along, I don't have faith that scientists will figure it out, I'm fairly certain based on past attempts of scientists to figure things out. And if they don't figure it out, I don't care, it doesn't change my world. Faith is for losers.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Anyways, the word :faith" doesn't always have the exact same meaning, like if I say "I have faith in my brother to get it right...". In this instance, having faith means that I think that there's a good chance that he'll get it right, not that my brother is unprovable, or that his success his unprovable. Is English not your first language?
> ...


He might prove to get it right, or he might prove to get it wrong, faith is not an issue here... well, except for you and Bossy. And based on my knowledge of my brother and his past experiences, I can judge whether I deem him capable or not of getting it right. Basically giving the odds on whether he comes through or not.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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Religion is simply organized spirituality.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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Since you cut out the rest of the post(s), I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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To discover something, you have to have something to discover, meaning you just observed or measured something new. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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It doesn't matter that you base your faith on past experience or probabilities. It's STILL FAITH! 

Go back and read the definition of faith again if you're having trouble... it's not that hard. 

NOW you are trying to modify the term with "blind" faith. We're not talking about "blind" faith. What this indicates is, you KNOW that your argument has been defeated and now you want to uproot the goal posts and trot off down the field, as if no one will notice. But you've been caught! Exposed! 

Maybe it's time to cut your losses and step away from the keyboard for a while? Just sayin'.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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Exactly. So it's NOT like two pockets of the same pair of pants like you previously claimed. 

So where is your scientific proof that humans invented spirituality?


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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Ok, so you're seeing it in the optic of, I have faith that I'll wake up in the morning. I have faith that my breakfast won't kill me. I have faith that my employer won't rape me at work. I have faith that the cop that I cross on the street won't shoot me. I have faith that when I flush the toilet, my shit will disappear... I get your point of view. I just don't see life that way. Plus, you're insane.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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*To discover something, you have to have something to discover...*

Whut??  Have you ever heard of the term, "circular reasoning?"


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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Where's your proof that spirituality isn't just made up? You claimed it, you prove that it's real.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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What do you mean you don't see life that way? You mean... logically?


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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A discovery needs something to discover. Pretty simple really.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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The last word you should be throwing around is "logical". 
You and a lot of religious people see the world through the optic of faith. I don't. I'm a realist.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Yeah, there is a lot of difference between having "faith" that a certain action will produce a certain outcome and having faith in a "god."


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Where's your proof that spirituality isn't just made up?



Because it defies logic as well as nature and biology and because we find no evidence of when it could have been made up. It's irrational and illogical to think that humans have the ability to imagine something that isn't real as an explanation for something real. IF that were true, you would simply need to just imagine God is real and all your questions would be instantly answered forever. Obviously, you can't make yourself do that no matter how hard you try. So the premise that man "made up" something to explain what was happening or console fears or comfort them in death, or whatever crazy shit you've dreamed up with no evidence, is simply not logical or rational. 

Study of biology is science... we have studied millions of life forms and we've never seen anything that retained fundamental attributes for no apparent reason or purpose... doesn't happen in nature. If human spiritual belief were superficial and unimportant they would not exist as a fundamental attribute in the species. This defies even the most simplistic notions of Darwinian theory as well as biology. And finally, every human civilization we've ever unearthed, back to the very oldest ones we've ever found, show signs of human spirituality. There simply is no evidence to show WHEN humans "invented" it because it has apparently always been a part of our history. 

So there you have it in two paragraphs.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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I'm not following. How do you discover something you know is there to be discovered?


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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Define the difference please?


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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Spirituality is not a fundamental attribute of humans. I don't believe that a god or spirituality has been proven, and so do a lot of other people, as well as people who outright reject the notion of god...


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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I never said that I knew it was there to discover. You made that up. Predictably.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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If I have to explain the difference, then I am probably much too intelligent to have a conversation with you at all!


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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But it certainly IS a fundamental attribute of humans. Your beliefs are irrelevant to the debate. Science shows that human spiritual beliefs have followed mankind for all his civilized existence as a species. To this day, it is prevalent in about 95% of the human race in some form. Only about 5% profess Nihilistic views which is the belief in nothing greater than self. 

I don't believe God has been proven either. No one has claimed that. I am certainly not claiming I can prove God exists. But there is no question that human spirituality exists and has always existed in civilized man. Not only is it a fundamental attribute, it is our most defining attribute as a species.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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That's it! Your bulb is too bright for us!


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


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Just trying to understand your convoluted logic. You seemed to indicate the discovery has to know it needs discovering or some such nonsense. I can't figure out what the hell you mean. We discover things all the time that we previously had no idea they needed to be discovered.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Agreed.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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"Your beliefs are irrelevant to the debate". So according to you, only your beliefs count in this discussion? Want to try telling me something I don't know? 

"Not only is it a fundamental attribute, it is our most defining attribute as a species." You have not proven this yet. This is how you explained it "But it certainly IS a fundamental attribute of humans". You have nothing. Go back to bed.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

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You say "That's how DM and DE were discovered". Yet you claim that "physical science can't do is evaluate things outside of the confines of physics." Yet you admit that scientists have discovered it even though it's outside the confines of what they can measure. So how do you discover something that you can't tell is there? Call it spirituality?


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## sealybobo (Nov 28, 2015)

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Remember he told jebidia he wouldn't live past 60? What a dick.

Oh yea that was you not Jesus. You're the dick.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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No... Beliefs are FAITH. Let's remember our definitions!  So if we are discussing science, we aren't discussing our faith or beliefs. You telling me something is not so because you don't believe it's so, isn't a scientific argument, it is a profession of faith... and the same goes for me. 

We can get into the dictionary definitions of what is "fundamental" and what is an "attribute" if you like, but you're going to lose again. I gave you the scientific evidence of human history proven by archaeological and paleontological discovery to support my statement and you've presenting nothing to contradict that other than your faith. 

Yes, go back to bed and try to grow some more brain cells. Come back when you're ready to be educated some more on science and faith.


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## sealybobo (Nov 28, 2015)

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> ChrisL said:
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> 
> > I find discussing the history of religion and theories on how it came to be (other than the religious people's theories of course - lol) much more interesting than arguing about whether or not there is actually a God or gods.  I don't believe in religions, but I find it to be a fascinating topic.  I find the fact that so many people believe in it to be fascinating too.  I think of it almost like a form of "mass hysteria."  Not to mention, "beliefs" are pounded into your head from the time you are a baby in a lot of cases, and you are told if you don't believe, this or that will happen, so it's very scary for us "nonbelievers" or "doubters" to actually come forward and say we are different and we don't believe.  We know there are going to be people who "hate us" for feeling that way.  Call us "demons", etc.
> ...


Yes ignorance is bliss you stupid mother fucker


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You say "That's how DM and DE were discovered". Yet you claim that "physical science can't do is evaluate things outside of the confines of physics." Yet you admit that scientists have discovered it even though it's outside the confines of what they can measure. So how do you discover something that you can't tell is there? Call it spirituality?



Well, I thought that I explained that to you? 

We know what gravitational forces are and we know what atomic weights are of physical matter. When we added up all the weight of all the atoms of physical matter in the universe and applied our calculation for gravitational force, the math didn't add up. It wasn't even in the ballpark. We weren't just off by a tiny amount, that could have been easily explainable... we were off by a LOT. In fact, all the material physical atoms of matter in the universe only accounted for 4% of the gravity present. The remaining enigmatic 96% was defined as dark energy and dark matter. We don't know what it is because we cannot observe it directly. 

Once we discovered DE and DM, we began looking more closely at physical matter at the subatomic level and again, we were amazed to find things that physics cannot explain. It seems (we're not completely sure) that for every particle of matter there is a corresponding particle of anti-matter. When the opposing forces come together it creates a massive explosion of energy. (This is nuclear fission.) Even MORE fascinating is the inside of each atom and what is going on there... weird things! Electrons and protons popping into existence from nowhere, existing in two places at the same time, or not existing in any time or space... defying the hell out of everything we understand as physics.... but it's happening in every atom of every material physical thing. We find in quantum physics, a paradox known as "quantum entanglement" ...you can google that if you like. This is where two subatomic particles are connected with each other and affecting one effects the other. What is so fascinating is, this happens instantly across billions of light years. How can one particle 'communicate' instantly to it's entangled particle across billions of light years? Nothing travels faster than the speed of light according to Einstein, not even information. So how is this possible? Physics has no explanation at this time.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

sealybobo said:


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Not much of a scientific argument there, silly boob. Wanna try again?


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Lol.  I'm sorry, but I really haven't seen you prove anything.  You make a lot of assumptions and you jump to a lot of conclusions, though.


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## BreezeWood (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> [Spirituality] - Not only is it a fundamental attribute, it is our most defining attribute as a species.


.








what is degenerative about boss as the pseudo religious, their exclusivity for the Almighty.

.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Lol. I'm sorry, but I really haven't seen you prove anything. You make a lot of assumptions and you jump to a lot of conclusions, though.



Well Chris, "PROOF" is also a funny and fickle thing... you see, proof is what you accept as proof. 

Case in point, most rational people know that O.J. killed his wife and lover because the DNA evidence was clear proof that he did it... but the jury didn't accept the proof. So we see, proof is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. 

I haven't made any assumptions. That seems to be the default position taken by those who maintain that humans somehow imagined something into existence to explain the unexplained. You have no scientific evidence to support that hypothesis and I've shown you how it's completely illogical.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > Lol. I'm sorry, but I really haven't seen you prove anything. You make a lot of assumptions and you jump to a lot of conclusions, though.
> ...



I disagree with your entire premise.    I have actually shown you evidence of where humans have indeed imagined things into "existence" at least in their OWN minds.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
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> > [Spirituality] - Not only is it a fundamental attribute, it is our most defining attribute as a species.
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I absolutely adore the water lilies, Breeze! Such a beautiful creation comprised of trillions of cells containing DNA with the digital coding to define exactly what it is, what it will always be, and what it will reproduce if it reproduces. The water-lily has a special place in Tamil poetics, where it is considered symbolic of the grief of separation; it is considered to evoke imagery of the sunset, the seashore and the shark.

Very spiritually-connected species indeed! Well done!


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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Except that you haven't. None of your examples are of people who are *imagining* something, they honestly have a *spiritual belief* in something. That you don't share their belief doesn't mean they don't believe it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Oh yes they do.  The belief in vampires, sea monsters and all kinds of things.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Vampire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Early folk belief in vampires has sometimes been ascribed to the ignorance of the body's process of decomposition after death and how people in pre-industrial societies tried to rationalise this, creating the figure of the vampire to explain the mysteries of death.* Porphyria was also linked with legends of vampirism in 1985 and received much media exposure, but has since been largely discredited.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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But they don't think they are imaginary.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Whaaaaat?  Lol.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Lol.  Of course they didn't THINK they were imaginary.  They had themselves believing that vampires were real.  That is the point here.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Whaaaaat? Lol.



Again... it's not possible to make up something imaginary and have it explain anything. For it to have any explanatory power in your mind, you have to believe it... not imagine it.  Therefore, it is logical that something caused humans to *believe* in a spiritual connection... they didn't make it up.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Lol.  Of course they didn't THINK they were imaginary.  They had themselves believing that vampires were real.  That is the point here.



LOL.... Of course you don't realize that you are MAKING my point and not refuting it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Well gee, it seems like that is exactly what YOU are doing here in this thread.    Lol.  Hilarious actually.


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## Bonzi (Nov 28, 2015)

You don't believe in God because you are blinded to the truth.......
Only when you soften your heart, and open your mind to all possibilities can there be any possibility of knowing truth .....


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## Bonzi (Nov 28, 2015)




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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> You don't believe in God because you are blinded to the truth.......
> Only when you soften your heart, and open your mind to all possibilities can there be any possibility of knowing truth .....
> 
> View attachment 55816



Oh geez.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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But I'm not, Chris. I honestly believe in a Spiritual Nature. In fact, I am certain of it... there is not a doubt in my mind. The fact that you think I'm imagining something is not relevant to my belief or my conviction of belief.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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Okay, but the thread is actually about why we do NOT believe.    We already know why the believers believe.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Everyone thinks that their "beliefs" are real and true.  Everyone.    The bottom line though is that there is no real solid evidence of such things actually existing.  Of course, you will tell me that you feel this or that, but I believe those are just your feelings related to your belief system.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> View attachment 55817



You probably really aren't doing the Christians any favors.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Everyone thinks that their "beliefs" are real and true.  Everyone.    The bottom line though is that there is no real solid evidence of such things actually existing.  Of course, you will tell me that you feel this or that, but I believe those are just your feelings related to your belief system.



Again, this disproves any theory that humans *invented* *something imaginary* to explain things. It simply could not have been the result of human imagination. That defies logic, as you've admitted here.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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> 
> > Everyone thinks that their "beliefs" are real and true.  Everyone.    The bottom line though is that there is no real solid evidence of such things actually existing.  Of course, you will tell me that you feel this or that, but I believe those are just your feelings related to your belief system.
> ...



I think you've got that backwards.  It certainly is a good example of people inventing things to explain that which they do not understand.  That is where I believe religion and belief systems got their start.  It only makes sense.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> The bottom line though is that there is no real solid evidence of such things actually existing.



For you that may be true, I can't say.  I can only tell you about my experience. I have plenty of evidence... all that I need. It may sound stupid to you but I can tell when my spiritual connection is out of whack... things are really shitty compared to normal. I nurture my spiritual connection through meditation and things get better instantly. You don't have to believe that for me to experience it.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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But now you're contradicting what you just said. Religion got it's start because mankind grappled with his spiritual connection and attempted to explain it. His spirituality existed long before he contemplated religion. So we can set aside Religion in this debate, it's an invention of man to explain his spirituality. It's not possible that he invented his spirituality because you cannot* imagine *something to explain anything... you must first BELIEVE it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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No, that was never my contention.  My contention is that man made up gods and religions to explain things that he could not understand.  I don't think there is such a thing as "spirituality."  That is just your emotions and feelings and the "feel good" chemicals we discussed earlier.


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## BreezeWood (Nov 28, 2015)

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> Such a beautiful creation comprised of trillions of cells containing DNA with the digital coding to define exactly what it is, what it will always be, and what it will reproduce if it reproduces.




nothing like confirming the exclusivity of your unique existence ... as one and only with Energy.

.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Mr. Boss, basically you are trying to convince me that "spirituality" is a real thing?  Perhaps you have a point.  If you "feel" spiritual (whatever that means), then to you it is most definitely a "real" thing.  But that is because it is based upon your own feelings, thoughts and biases.  

I don't see how you have proven that "spirituality" is anything other than feelings and emotions that you have inside of yourself for whatever reason.  

You know, there are many times when I hear a song I like and it gives me the chills, a physical manifestation of how I really enjoy some music.  Does that make me "spiritual?"  Perhaps in some people's opinions.  IMO, it only means that this particular has had an effect on my emotions and feelings.  

Boss


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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But Chris, you keep going in circles... First you state everyone thinks their beliefs are real then you say that we can make up things not real to explain things. This is two contradicting ideas. Only one can be valid. I think the former is correct, we have to first believe something is real, we can't make it up.  And the chemical reactions we've discussed... they are the byproduct of stimulation *caused* by our feelings. They don't create the feelings. 

Whether you believe spirituality is a such thing or not, doesn't have a thing to do with reality. That is your belief, your faith... not science. To prove something with science you need more than your faith. So far, you've offered nothing.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

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> > The bottom line though is that there is no real solid evidence of such things actually existing.
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And I never said I had an issue with that.  What I have an issue with is you assuming that everyone else "needs" 'to have some kind of belief in order to be happy and productive individual when that is just not the case.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Mr. Boss, basically you are trying to convince me that "spirituality" is a real thing?  Perhaps you have a point.  If you "feel" spiritual (whatever that means), then to you it is most definitely a "real" thing.  But that is because it is based upon your own feelings, thoughts and biases.
> 
> I don't see how you have proven that "spirituality" is anything other than feelings and emotions that you have inside of yourself for whatever reason.
> 
> ...



How can you prove to me that a song moved you? Can you show physical evidence of the thing that effected your feelings? What I hear is you describing a spiritual experience without using the word... is it the WORD you fear? Are you afraid it's going to cause you to be religious or succumb to theocratic dogma? It's okay, really! In the words of the great philosopher Stevie Nicks...  there's nothing here to fear!


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

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> > ChrisL said:
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Well people prove every day that they can cope just fine without their spirituality. But again, if the attribute were unimportant to the species, it wouldn't exist in the species... that's Darwin, baby, not me.  Some people can smoke cigarettes and drink hard liquor all their life too, and do just fine.... doesn't mean that's what's BEST for them. I've known drug addicts who were "just fine" without rehab for many years. I know people who become obese and live fat and happy for many years. I've not argued that you "need" anything.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Mr. Boss, basically you are trying to convince me that "spirituality" is a real thing?



No. I think you already intrinsically know it's a real thing but you don't want to admit it. I think you are scared of the word. My only objective is to let you know that you don't need to fear it. You don't even have to define it by a word or admit it to anyone. This is something inside of you and I have no control over it one way or the other.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Boss, basically you are trying to convince me that "spirituality" is a real thing?
> ...



I don't fear my feelings and emotions.  What makes you say that?


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I don't fear my feelings and emotions. What makes you say that?



 I did not say that, did I?


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I don't fear my feelings and emotions. What makes you say that?
> ...



Well that is what I think spirituality is, just your feelings and emotions.  Our brains are quite amazing.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



The only thing is, other living things have feelings and emotions too. Yell at your dog and see how he reacts... I bet he gets his feelings hurt and feels a doggie emotion. Take an apes banana away and see if he doesn't show you his emotions.  So why aren't all these other creatures hindered by this imaginary made up belief in something not real?


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Not like human beings.  Hello???


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Anyhow, the bottom line is, no, not everyone needs religion or even spirituality to be a happy and productive person.  I do none of the self-destructive things you mentioned earlier in this thread.  I just don't have a "need" for any of those things.  I can deal with reality just fine all by myself, thanks.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Correct! We are spiritually inspired creatures and they are not.


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## Boss (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Anyhow, the bottom line is, no, not everyone needs religion or even spirituality to be a happy and productive person.  I do none of the self-destructive things you mentioned earlier in this thread.  I just don't have a "need" for any of those things.  I can deal with reality just fine all by myself, thanks.



I don't think you really believe there is nothing greater than yourself. I think you are in denial of your own spirituality and afraid to embrace it or admit it. That's just MY opinion. I understand you don't feel that you "need" those things. 

You can live in a house with electricity and never plug anything into an outlet or flip a switch... be proud of the fact that you don't "need" the electricity.... if that is the point you wish to prove, that's up to you. It doesn't make the electricity any less real or defeat it's purpose. It's not going to jump out of the wall and demand you use it... I'm not coming to your home and make you use it. That choice is all yours.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Anyhow, the bottom line is, no, not everyone needs religion or even spirituality to be a happy and productive person.  I do none of the self-destructive things you mentioned earlier in this thread.  I just don't have a "need" for any of those things.  I can deal with reality just fine all by myself, thanks.
> ...



Oh, I need my electricity.    I have electric heat, so . . .


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Basically giving the odds on whether he comes through or not.


believing that which cannot be proven.....yes, I am familiar with it.......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


that is, of course, my point......religion describes the organization, not the spirituality, which is something different........


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Since you cut out the rest of the post(s), I have no idea what you're talking about.


really.....there are little arrows next to the quotes.....if your memory needs refreshing you can click the arrow and it takes you to the post.....


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## Yarddog (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...




I have a theory,  that God controls evolution.   Every living thing has a built in desire to live and when they are injured in some way you can often see their struggle to repair and survive. From the smallest organism to the most complex.   Seems to me that the highest form of evolution, or survival would be to have the ability to survive beyond the life of the physical body. As you said our brains are very complex.   

Perhaps that moment in the bible where it says God created man,  was the moment the "animal man"  made the leap to having a spirit, or soul or whatever you would call it.  Suppose at that moment, then man was able to communicate with god on a certain level.  Perhaps we have lost the ability to do so,   which would come back to the Apple and the serpent. Which would represent some other factors. 

Just a theory now


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Yarddog said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Interesting but . . .  I just don't really believe that there is a "god."  If there was a god type entity, I really don't think it is anything like anyone says.  Would be more like a "force" or something, IMO.  Not a thinking or feeling type of entity at all.


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## Yarddog (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...




Well, I also think God would not have a human form,   God may be a form of consciousness. Think of your own consciousness, you can't see it or feel it but it still exists.  We really don't even know what it is.  Perhaps we have a little piece of this other Force, if you want to call it that.     Maybe we can choose to expand it inside ourselves or let it sit dormant all our lives, maybe just living on auto pilot so to speak.

Perhaps there is a force that has a desire to create. The fact that there is life at all in the universe is pretty damn amazing. and there also seems to be a certain order in the universe as well.  even the structure of our DNA


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

Yarddog said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Yarddog said:
> ...



So . . . instead of saying God Bless You, we should say, May The Force Be With You!


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## Yarddog (Nov 28, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Well, you could try that for a while.....         But it doesn't rule out a god with some sort of feelings but that is more for each person to decide.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Basically giving the odds on whether he comes through or not.
> ...


I know, it makes you feel good to lump me in with you faithers. Sorry, you fail. Betting is a game, not faith.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > PostmodernProph said:
> ...


No, religion is spirituality, but organized.


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## Mudda (Nov 28, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Since you cut out the rest of the post(s), I have no idea what you're talking about.
> ...


Next time just quote my whole post, it's simpler.


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


prove it.....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


so tell me.....if we agree with each other four times does it mean the argument is over?.....


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 28, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Next time just quote my whole post, it's simpler.


I hate posts where you have to click on the expand button just to see which of my posts you are replying to.....I delete everything except the comment I am answering......


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## BreezeWood (Nov 28, 2015)

.







Spirituality is derived from Garden Earth and is shared by all that is living - life is an element of the universe, accessible by Admission to the Everlasting.

.


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## ChrisL (Nov 28, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll have what he's smoking.    J/K.


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## Mudda (Nov 29, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > PostmodernProph said:
> ...


If I bet the 10-0 Patriots to beat the 2-8 Cleveland Browns, it's not faith, but common sense or deductive reasoning... No faith required.


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## Mudda (Nov 29, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So plants are spiritual? Well, that explains you.


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## Boss (Nov 29, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



No, it's FAITH.  You have faith that the Patriots will beat the Browns based on your reasoning. You will put up your money with a bookie who has faith you are wrong. Usually there is a points handicap involved and that is also based on reasoning and faith. Deductive reasoning does not eliminate faith. Many Christians have deduced through reasoning that their God exists.... the same as your reasoning.  

Faith is belief in something not proved. It has not been proved that the Patriots WILL defeat the Browns... you have FAITH they will... it's not yet proved. You've already tipped your hand on this... you are conflating faith with "blind faith" which is a type of faith involving no deductive reasoning. You do this because you want to elevate your faith above the faith of others. But you don't get to redefine words or evaluate the nature of other people's faith.


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## Mudda (Nov 29, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > PostmodernProph said:
> ...


You're confused. I'm done arguing about this. Move on.


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## Bonzi (Nov 29, 2015)

You don't believe in God because you don't WANT to believe in God.
People want to be their own boss.
People think they know what is best and have all the answers.
People think that they have a right to live how they want and answer to no one (even in the end....)
And the real idiots defer to the government and lawmakers.

Morons.


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## Mudda (Nov 29, 2015)

Bonzi said:


> You don't believe in God because you don't WANT to believe in God.
> People want to be their own boss.
> People think they know what is best and have all the answers.
> People think that they have a right to live how they want and answer to no one (even in the end....)
> ...


I'm a realist, I can't follow something for which there is zero real proof.


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## ChrisL (Nov 29, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



You don't need to have faith to know that the Patriots are awesome!


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 29, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


sorry, but that's no different from the process I go through to choose to believe in YHWH instead of Buddha......faith IS involved......


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## PostmodernProph (Nov 29, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


sounds like "I lose.  Don't know what to say next".......


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## Mudda (Nov 29, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Nah, just tired of arguing over a word. But I'm sure that you and Bossy will see it as a win. Go for it. You both win by pestering me with nonsense. Way to go!


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## Boss (Nov 29, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Nah, just tired of arguing over a word. But I'm sure that you and Bossy will see it as a win. Go for it. You both win by pestering me with nonsense. Way to go!



Your concession is duly noted.


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## Mudda (Nov 29, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, just tired of arguing over a word. But I'm sure that you and Bossy will see it as a win. Go for it. You both win by pestering me with nonsense. Way to go!
> ...


You're a fool, go get me some proof of spirituality being a fundamental part of humans, aside from, "because it IS!" 
I don't have faith that you can't, I KNOW you can't.


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## BreezeWood (Nov 29, 2015)

Mudda said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


.


> So plants are spiritual? ...


.





not all "planets" Mud, sadly but correctly I admit the Garden is not Earth ... any more than its location.

.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



How many more times do we need to go through this? I've already presented the only evidence any rational person could need and you don't accept it. 

The oldest bones of human civilization that we've ever dug up, show signs of humans being spiritual creatures. They buried their dead in ritual ceremonies. There is no other practical purpose of burying dead people with a ritual ceremony, it is a purely spiritual action. 

From there, we see that EVERY civilization we've discovered from the past has some form of spirituality being practiced. There's not a period of human history where humans (in civilization) were not spiritual. Furthermore, every instance we find where rulers or kings tried to ban spiritual beliefs it simply failed. This is something that, despite every effort, cannot be stomped out of the heart of man. 

Now... whether you believe in modern biology or Darwinism, the fact remains that when living things maintain a specific attribute for all the species existence, it must be fundamental to the species. To deny that is to deny science *and* Darwinism.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


You have no proof, what you have is a theory, and a not very good one at that.


Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


You haven't put forth any evidence, just your personal opinion. You haven't backed up your claims with anything, meaning, you still have nothing.
Why aren't other animals spiritual then if it's ingrained in nature and part of it? And why does spirituality and religion need to be taught?
And the earliest burials show no signs of being a spiritual ritual. Up to you to prove otherwise. “While we cannot know if this practice was part of a ritual or merely pragmatic, ..."
Neanderthals Buried Their Dead, New Research Concludes


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Well again. "proof" is subjective. I did give you evidence and it's compelling evidence that you can't refute. That's why you keep on trying to dismiss it. The problem is, you have to contradict biology, archaeology, paleontology, nature and even Darwinian theory. That basically leaves us with YOUR OPINION and that's all. 

There is nothing pragmatic about a ritual ceremony for something dead. You cannot rationalize it any other way than an exercise of spiritual belief. Try if you like... present some explanations! Showing that some Neanderthals in Europe practiced spirituality is not refuting anything. You've also shown no evidence that other living things aren't spiritual or spiritually connected. 

*And the earliest burials show no signs of being a spiritual ritual.*

Well.. YES... they most certainly fucking DO!  This is not disputable or questionable. Until you can present some explanation for ritual ceremony burial, you can't argue this. You're just flat out telling a lie. They used red ocher, flowers, artifacts, arranged bodies, performed ceremonies. All of this is documented findings and fully available for anyone to research. We have overwhelming evidence that humans have always been spiritual. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You have no proof, what you have is a theory, and a not very good one at that.



No, I have presented indisputable physical evidence to show that humans have always been spiritual and you have not refuted that. There is no theory other than your unfounded theory that mankind "invented" spirituality. Not only is your theory unfounded, it is unsupportable due to logic and reason. It's impossible to imagine something not real and have it explain anything... unless you are split from reality and mentally insane. 

So the person here with the scientific evidence backing them up is ME and the person who is trying to promote their baseless opinions is YOU.  And that dynamic isn't going to change because you think you can run your mouth better than me.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


""proof" is subjective".  

As for the study by NY University, they trump your unproven nonsense every fucking day of the week. You lose again.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You have no proof, what you have is a theory, and a not very good one at that.
> ...


I just disputed your lame theory with work done by scientists at NY University. You have nothing.

And I'm agnostic, I take no position for or against whether god and spirituality are real until I see some proper evidence. You have nothing. Please stop pestering me until you have something real to back up your claims.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You have no proof, what you have is a theory, and a not very good one at that.
> ...



And I showed you irrefutable evidence that human beings make up stories and "gods" to explain that which they do not understand.  Spirituality doesn't really mean much of anything, sorry to say, and means something different to everyone.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> "proof" is subjective".
> 
> As for the study by NY University, they trump your unproven nonsense every fucking day of the week. You lose again.



I don't know why you think that is funny, it's the truth. Is this going to be another word like "faith" that you have trouble understanding? We're starting to see a pattern develop here. 

Is there a study from NYU to disprove the archaeological findings? Or is it possible you are once again, not able to comprehend basic word meanings? Not sure which, but I am reasonably sure nothing contradicts the discovery of human spiritual behavior in the earliest human civilization.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> And I showed you irrefutable evidence that human beings make up stories and "gods" to explain that which they do not understand.  Spirituality doesn't really mean much of anything, sorry to say, and means something different to everyone.



No Chris, you have shown me NO evidence whatsoever. You keep SAYING it, as if you are some all-knowing entity... that's not "irrefutable evidence" of anything except your ego. 

Again... it is absolutely impossible for you to make up something and have it explain anything. We've gone through this already... you cited examples of people who BELIEVED things that you don't think are real, but they DID... they couldn't believe them if they didn't. They couldn't "pretend" any more than you can.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > And I showed you irrefutable evidence that human beings make up stories and "gods" to explain that which they do not understand.  Spirituality doesn't really mean much of anything, sorry to say, and means something different to everyone.
> ...



Sorry but my evidence is better than anything you have been able to produce thus far.  

Human beings are known to make up stories.  Lol.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss is in denial, obviously.  Human beings are story tellers.  They always have been and always will be.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> I just disputed your lame theory with work done by scientists at NY University.



No you didn't. You presented something from NYU that shows European Neanderthals practiced spirituality. That does not, in ANY WAY, refute the fact that humans have always been spiritual. Neanderthals aren't even the same species, so what they did or didn't do is irrelevant.  

I can also cite expert opinions that the European Neanderthals were simply mimicking their homo sapien counterparts as their species was dying out. It was a primitive attempt to assimilate in order to preserve the species. Regardless, pointing to another species exhibiting spiritual ritual beliefs is not disproving spirituality... if anything, it's more evidence FOR it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > And I showed you irrefutable evidence that human beings make up stories and "gods" to explain that which they do not understand.  Spirituality doesn't really mean much of anything, sorry to say, and means something different to everyone.
> ...



You know what?  Your last sentence makes very little if any sense and it seems as if you are starting to panic.  Maybe you shouldn't read this thread anymore.  It's really kind of supposed to be a discussion between us "nonbelievers" about why we don't believe.  I have no desire to hurt anyone or destroy anyone's faith or to make them question their faith, but I will not cow tow to your silly belief system.  So . . . we are at an impasse.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I'm not saying humans can't make up stories. They can't believe made up stories have explanatory power. If that were true, you wouldn't have any trouble believing the "made up God" explains things. Do you? 

Your evidence is without merit. Pointless.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



They most certainly do and have throughout history.  That is why the ancient Greeks believed in "gods" too.  All religions, aside from a few minor details, are pretty much based on the same ignorance.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

A volcano would erupt, an earthquake would happen, and these people had no clue what was going on, so they attributed these acts of nature to "gods."  Same thing with droughts, etc.  That is why many ancient civilizations would actually sacrifice people to appease their gods.  They actually believed that sacrificing people to the gods made the gods happy and made things more pleasant for them.  Lol.    FACT.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

People have used their "religious beliefs" to justify all kinds of massacres throughout history.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> You know what? Your last sentence makes very little if any sense and it seems as if you are starting to panic. Maybe you shouldn't read this thread anymore. It's really kind of supposed to be a discussion between us "nonbelievers" about why we don't believe. I have no desire to hurt anyone or destroy anyone's faith or to make them question their faith, but I will not cow tow to your silly belief system. So . . . we are at an impasse.



No Chris, this is a discussion on human spirituality at this point. I am not panicking or "making little sense" at all. I am presenting scientific evidence to support everything I've said and you are presenting your opinion. I've not asked you to "cow tow" to anything. You are free to have whatever opinion you wish. 

In the words of the great philosopher, Jules wWinnfield:


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You know what? Your last sentence makes very little if any sense and it seems as if you are starting to panic. Maybe you shouldn't read this thread anymore. It's really kind of supposed to be a discussion between us "nonbelievers" about why we don't believe. I have no desire to hurt anyone or destroy anyone's faith or to make them question their faith, but I will not cow tow to your silly belief system. So . . . we are at an impasse.
> ...



Sorry, but I don't see that you have presented anything except figments of your imagination.  Lol.   

https://www.quora.com/Sacrifice/Why...mals-would-allow-them-to-gain-favor-with-gods

As a result, you can see a historical development from the pagan notion of appeasement to the gods, to the biblical notions which started to recast the ritual in a slightly different way. This development leads to the current state where there is no animal sacrifice at all. What will the future bring? Some think animal sacrifices will be restored, others insist they will never be restored and were only mandated because ancient people had ancient ideas.

Thus ancient people thought that animal sacrifices allow people to gain favor with the gods. Biblical people thought that the modified animal rituals would help them get closer to God.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> A volcano would erupt, an earthquake would happen, and these people had no clue what was going on, so they attributed these acts of nature to "gods."  Same thing with droughts, etc.  That is why many ancient civilizations would actually sacrifice people to appease their gods.  They actually believed that sacrificing people to the gods made the gods happy and made things more pleasant for them.  Lol.    FACT.



Okay... so next time there is an earthquake or volcanic eruption, just tell yourself that it's the work of some made up God and see if that satisfies you? If it does, then your theory is valid. If not, then my point is correct. 

YES... people DID *BELIEVE* things... that's spirituality baby! It takes a pretty strong convicted belief to throw another human being into a fucking volcano! You are actually PROVING my point.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Sorry, but I don't see that you have presented anything except figments of your imagination.



Well archaeological findings are not figments of my imagination. Sorry!


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Here is a very interesting link.  Not for you though, Boss.  You are a believer.   

Psychology of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, but I don't see that you have presented anything except figments of your imagination.
> ...



Now what are you babbling about?  Archaeological findings of what?  I am aware that some stories do in fact contain accurate historical data.  Doesn't mean the stories are not made up.  Of course an author will incorporate his surroundings into his stories.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> They most certainly do and have throughout history.



No they don't and they never have or never can. Unless they are crazy. 

You keep presenting examples of people who *BELIEVED* in _*SOMETHING!*_ 

Give me some examples of people who made up something they *didn't believe* and used that to explain things?


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Here is a very interesting link.  Not for you though, Boss.  You are a believer.
> 
> Psychology of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Now you are back to talking about *RELIGIONS!*  We've been through this already as well! We are not discussing RELIGIONS!  Those *ARE* man-made constructs and I've never once argued to the contrary!


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



I guess maybe you need to read the thread and catch up.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > They most certainly do and have throughout history.
> ...



Yes they have and do, and I've already given you numerous examples.  People made up stories, which they actually did believe, to explain things they couldn't understand.  Since they were terrified of natural disasters, famines and other such things, they made up stories of gods being angry and punishing them, and then they thought that they had to sacrifice virgins and animals to appease these gods, which they actually did do.  

I'm sorry that you are . . . slow.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > "proof" is subjective".
> ...


Try reading the study, fool.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a very interesting link.  Not for you though, Boss.  You are a believer.
> ...



Well then what are you getting so upset about?  I guess your "spirituality" isn't all that, eh?


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > I just disputed your lame theory with work done by scientists at NY University.
> ...


If you can't read, we can no longer discuss because you're arguing a false premise.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Stories can definitely be made up, I am not arguing that. Religions can be made up... not arguing that.  We are discussing how human *spirituality* came to be and it wasn't made up... it can't be.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

It seems to be that most of the people who claim to be "religious" or "spiritual" are the ones with the MOST unresolved psychological issues.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Like I told you, spirituality is nothing more than your feelings and emotions.  You can't explain it.  You can't prove it, and it certainly does not mean that there is a "god".


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > Boss said:
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This is beginning to get OLD.  I would like to discuss the high potential for psychopathology regarding religious beliefs and the origins of religious beliefs, if you don't mind.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I'm not getting upset but my spirituality doesn't prevent me from being upset about things. What the hell is it with you people? You want to always try and use another person's beliefs against them like a bunch of goddamn hypocrites? I've already told you that you can't "guilt trip" me with my spirituality. My God doesn't give a shit if I get mad or treat you rudely. I'm not going to be punished or reprimanded by my God. So you need to save that shit for your Christian friends because it doesn't work on me.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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I did read. Your link doesn't disprove anything. Doesn't support your arguments. Does't refute mine. 

Sorry. Just doesn't. Period.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Well then start a thread discussing RELIGIONS... I'll be glad to jump in and give you my opinions on them.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

What I notice is that people who commit crimes or atrocities based upon their religious beliefs actually believe they are doing the world a favor and that they are the "good guys."  This is the type of delusional thinking that religious beliefs can cause.  We even see examples of this in our American society today.  For example, the "kill all Muslims" people.  A lot of religious people (Christians) believe that the Muslims are "evil."  And vice versa of course.  The Muslims really and truly believe that the Christians are lower than them because they believe in Christ and not Muhammed.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Like I told you, spirituality is nothing more than your feelings and emotions.



And like I told you, that contradicts science and nature. Countless forms of life experience feelings and emotions but do not have spirituality. We're the only form that retains this fundamental attribute.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


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Okay, well you can argue with the other posters about this "spirituality" stuff.  I am more interested in discussing other aspects of the religious belief systems instead of arguing with you about your beliefs.  Lol.  You can believe whatever you want.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Like I told you, spirituality is nothing more than your feelings and emotions.
> ...



Okay, well I just think you are silly.  Sorry.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> What I notice is that people who commit crimes or atrocities based upon their religious beliefs actually believe they are doing the world a favor and that they are the "good guys."  This is the type of delusional thinking that religious beliefs can cause.  We even see examples of this in our American society today.  For example, the "kill all Muslims" people.  A lot of religious people (Christians) believe that the Muslims are "evil."  And vice versa of course.  The Muslims really and truly believe that the Christians are lower than them because they believe in Christ and not Muhammed.



RIGHT! And you are presenting yet MORE evidence of a *profound* human spiritual connection.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

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Don't worry, I'm not trying to convert you to reality, just having some fun showing you what a big fat nothing you have as proof of your theory.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Okay, well you can argue with the other posters about this "spirituality" stuff.  I am more interested in discussing other aspects of the religious belief systems instead of arguing with you about your beliefs.  Lol.  You can believe whatever you want.



Human spirituality is not simply my belief, it is a well-documented fact of human history. YOU can believe whatever YOU want... spirituality in humans is a fact.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Like I told you, spirituality is nothing more than your feelings and emotions.
> ...


So we're the exception to the rule of nature? Hmmm. I think you just lost again.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


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But you're FAILING all over the place. It's not a theory, it's proven science. The evidence is conclusive and indisputable. Humans have been spiritual for as long as they've been humans.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


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Except that's not what I said.  You continue to try and dishonestly twist my words into something you can attack and defeat and I continue to not let you do it. You think you're winning but you're still failing badly.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, well you can argue with the other posters about this "spirituality" stuff.  I am more interested in discussing other aspects of the religious belief systems instead of arguing with you about your beliefs.  Lol.  You can believe whatever you want.
> ...


So why am I, like countless others, not spiritual?


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

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Then show me the science. If you have solid science behind it, I'm ok with that. Go for it.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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Sorry but I think you're silly too.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


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Because you, like a lot of others, fill your spiritual void with something else.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

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Again, you try to prove something by saying "because I said so". Ummm... no.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

I find it interesting that religious delusions often accompany mental illness, especially certain kinds of mental illnesses, like schizophrenia.  Now, of course, I am aware that you can have a belief system and not be delusional.  However, I think a lot of times people who "rely" on religion to get them through life can be just as unhealthy as one who relies on drugs or alcohol and that when under severe amounts of stress, these religious beliefs can certainly turn "delusional."  We hear stories all the tie on the news about how parents kill their children because they think the child is "possessed" by the devil.  A couple of stories within the last decade come to mind, such as Andrea Yates and there is this story from 2008.  

Mother charged in grisly deaths of her four children - CNN.com


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

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So why do I have a spiritual void? Birth defect?


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

One must wonder what happens when you combine religious beliefs with drugs and alcohol too.  Seems like a dangerous combination.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


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Sorry, but there are plenty of us out here who don't share your views and don't need to fill it with something else at all.    This is something you need to realize.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


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I'm not going to keep repeating the evidence over and over like some kind of fucking drone. If you want to read the evidence, scroll back and read it! It has been presented and you've yet to refute it. We keep going in these big huge circles over and over. You demand evidence, I show you evidence, you reject it based on your opinion and then claim I've not proven it. Then you act like nothing has been presented and clamor for the evidence!  Over and over!


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Look the bottom line here is that some people need a crutch, like religion, drugs, alcohol, or whatever.  Other people do not need such things because they are apparently better able to handle reality.  That's all.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


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I've not tried to prove anything with "I say so" that is YOU!  That's what YOU'RE doing!


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Now, now.  Calm down.  Maybe you need to go meditate or something.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

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No, post links to scientists.. who have done research and back up your claims. You said that "it's proven science. The evidence is conclusive and indisputable." Proven science has links to the actual proven conclusive and indisputable science done by scientists. Got any?


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

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I gave a link to support what I said. You haven't given anything yet.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Look the bottom line here is that some people need a crutch, like religion, drugs, alcohol, or whatever.  Other people do not need such things because they are apparently better able to handle reality.  That's all.



Again... I am not a proponent of organized religions. I am sure some people do use their religion as a crutch. Human spirituality is not a crutch or we'd be extinct as a species right now and we're not. So either Darwin and biology have it all completely wrong or YOU are completely wrong.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Look the bottom line here is that some people need a crutch, like religion, drugs, alcohol, or whatever.  Other people do not need such things because they are apparently better able to handle reality.  That's all.
> ...



Well, this thread is about not believing in GOD.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Look the bottom line here is that some people need a crutch, like religion, drugs, alcohol, or whatever.  Other people do not need such things because they are apparently better able to handle reality.  That's all.
> ...



None of those things say anything about "spirituality."  Where in biology is spirituality mentioned?  Please cite a link now.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Look the bottom line here is that some people need a crutch, like religion, drugs, alcohol, or whatever.  Other people do not need such things because they are apparently better able to handle reality.  That's all.
> ...



Please cite links to your scientific data regarding human spirituality.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Maybe in the study of human behavior, religion and spirituality is included, but that in no way is evidence that either of those things actually exist.  

Spirituality is just something you "feel."  It is nothing more than that.  You cannot prove it's existence or nonexistence.  If you "feel" spiritual, then you are a "spiritual person" but it isn't like it is some "entity," so I'm a little confused at why Mr. Boss Man is getting so upset.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


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Lake Mungo remains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are all kinds of resources available online, you are free to go research them for yourself. I've played this game of "gimme a link" before with you fucktards. I know what happens next... you either attack the source or you cherry pick some detail within to seemingly contradict what I am arguing. I don't play by the Saul Alinsky Rules of Radicals, that's your shtick. 

Every paleontologist agrees that the oldest human civilizations were spiritual. If you have some evidence to contradict that, you can present that to me. That's how this is going to work.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

*The finding implies that complicated burial rituals existed in early human societies.*
*Lake Mungo remains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Spiritual only means you believe in something though.  This is not "proof" of anything at all.  Lol.  The ancient Greeks believed in Zeus and other gods.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

The Mayans also had multiple gods.  They were spiritual because they had a belief system based on the supernatural, again a great deal of which was to explain natural events and disasters that they did not yet understand and wanted to explain.  That is all.  It doesn't prove anything.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


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Well of course. I never have said that anything spiritually believed could be proven. If that were possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? The point is, they all believed in something they though was very real and not made up. 

PROOF is subjective. Mudder laughs, but that's just a fact. There are people who believe in PROOF that aliens are walking among us... that Elvis is still alive... that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy... that we never landed on the moon.... that OJ was innocent... on and on. Proof is merely something you've accepted some kind of evidence to support your belief in.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> The Mayans also had multiple gods.  They were spiritual because they had a belief system based on the supernatural, again a great deal of which was to explain natural events and disasters that they did not yet understand and wanted to explain.  That is all.  It doesn't prove anything.



Well I don't really know about what the Mayans believed because I wasn't there. I can only go by the evidence we've uncovered and it shows incontrovertibly that they held deep spiritual beliefs. 

Supernatural means outside of nature and spirituality in humans is definitely not outside of nature. It's part of nature, part of who we are as a species. This is a lame attempt to somehow discredit spiritual belief as nonsense... well, if it's nonsensical, we should be extinct according to Darwin and general biology. Living things that retain attributes detrimental to the species go extinct. 

So human spirituality is there, it's always been there, and it has always been a fundamental attribute of our species. In fact, I believe it's responsible for how much more advanced and sophisticated we've been able to become as opposed to all other life forms. 

You keep arguing that man invented it to explain things but this doesn't make rational sense because it doesn't explain anything. You can't just *make up* things to explain stuff... it doesn't work. You must first *BELIEVE* in something for it to have explanatory power. Your cognitive mind will not let you go around that.


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> *The finding implies that complicated burial rituals existed in early human societies.
> Lake Mungo remains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


First of all, it also implies that they burned the bodies so the animals wouldn't eat them, or because they didn't like the smell or knew that they could get sick...
Secondly, even if that is a ritual, that in no way proves that spirituality is a natural part of man, only that some early humanoids practised it, maybe they were the first ones to do it. Like stone tools, which aren't inherent to humans either.
Thirdly, it's not a scientific link, it's Wiki, and anyone can write anything or change it how they want, including you.

So, I ask yet again, got anything scientific for real?


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## Mudda (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> Well of course.* I never have said that anything spiritually believed could be proven*. If that were possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? The point is, they all believed in something they though was very real and not made up.
> 
> PROOF is subjective. Mudder laughs, but that's just a fact. There are people who believe in PROOF that aliens are walking among us... that Elvis is still alive... that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy... that we never landed on the moon.... that OJ was innocent... on and on. Proof is merely something you've accepted some kind of evidence to support your belief in.


"*I never have said that anything spiritually believed could be proven" - Bossy*
Bossy said: "Human spirituality is not simply my belief, it is a well-documented fact of human history. YOU can believe whatever YOU want... spirituality in humans is a fact." and "I have presented indisputable physical evidence to show that humans have always been spiritual".

Bossy, you've managed to confuse yourself... again.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Fair enough.  Like I said, I suppose not everybody believes that "spirituality" is related to a god.  We are emotion-driven animals.  Yes, we can easily convince ourselves and others that something is "real" when it isn't, as has been proven throughout history time and time again with all kinds of beliefs.  So . . . I really don't know what it is you are arguing about, unless you are saying that spirituality has to come from a believe in a god or gods?


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## BreezeWood (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Like I told you, spirituality is nothing more than your feelings and emotions.
> ...


.


> And like I told you, that contradicts science and nature. Countless forms of life experience feelings and emotions but do not have spirituality. We're the only form that retains this fundamental attribute


_*
Countless forms of life experience feelings and emotions ...*_


what is your example of a living being that does not exhibit "feelings and emotions" ... than an academic Spiritualist.

.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > *The finding implies that complicated burial rituals existed in early human societies.
> ...



EXACTLY what I predicted. 

_"you either attack the source or you cherry pick some detail within to seemingly contradict what I am arguing. "
_
Only difference is I shouldn't have used "or" because you did BOTH! 

I am done with you on this, you believe whatever you wish, you're entitled to your faith.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Well of course.* I never have said that anything spiritually believed could be proven*. If that were possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? The point is, they all believed in something they though was very real and not made up.
> ...



You show again that you are apparently ignorant of context. "Spiritually believed" is not "spiritual" in the sentence you quoted. You're dropping "-ly believed" and making a new sentence out of context, then claiming I contradict that. 

Follow me slowly. Corky, I'll try not to lose you... *Specific beliefs* which come *through* human spirituality cannot be proven or disproved. I've never claimed they could. HOWEVER, human spirituality *(the act of humans being spiritually connected)* is very much a real thing that cannot be denied and is indisputable throughout human history.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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For SOME people.  Not for everyone.  Sorry.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Fair enough. Like I said, I suppose not everybody believes that "spirituality" is related to a god. We are emotion-driven animals. Yes, we can easily convince ourselves and others that something is "real" when it isn't, as has been proven throughout history time and time again with all kinds of beliefs. So . . . I really don't know what it is you are arguing about, unless you are saying that spirituality has to come from a believe in a god or gods?



And again, other life forms are emotional. Spirituality is more than just our emotions or we'd see it happening in other life forms. Maybe this happens and we simply don't see it? If so, I would say that's an even stronger compelling argument that something must exist beyond the physical. Whether something exists or doesn't exist beyond the physical, humans believe it does and always have. 

From a purely scientific standpoint, it is an interesting paradox that physics can't explain the origin of the universe. A physical material universe cannot create itself. On the largest cosmic scale, physics can't explain what is happening inside a black hole. The rules of physics break down at the event horizon. Finally, at the smallest level of the physical material universe, inside the atom, physics cannot explain what is happening. Electrons and photons can exist in two places at the same time or nowhere at all. Photons of light can be waves or particles depending on whether they are observed. Not only that, they can also change what they were if we try and trick them by observing covertly. 

This raised the question for Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein... What *is* _real_? This is where Einstein's famous quote, "I don't believe God rolls the dice." comes from. He believed the moon is still there, even if we're not looking at it.  The two men argued for years over this and Bohr eventually won the argument. Nothing is there until it is observed. After their famous Copenhagen conference, Einstein was forced to recant his "spooky action at a distance" claim and admit "reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one." 

A spiritual nature exists and humans connect with it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough. Like I said, I suppose not everybody believes that "spirituality" is related to a god. We are emotion-driven animals. Yes, we can easily convince ourselves and others that something is "real" when it isn't, as has been proven throughout history time and time again with all kinds of beliefs. So . . . I really don't know what it is you are arguing about, unless you are saying that spirituality has to come from a believe in a god or gods?
> ...



Um no, you don't see that in other animals because they just aren't intelligent enough to have any kind of beliefs.  Lol.  Stop being silly, okay?  Some humans need spirituality to be happy.  Others do not.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough. Like I said, I suppose not everybody believes that "spirituality" is related to a god. We are emotion-driven animals. Yes, we can easily convince ourselves and others that something is "real" when it isn't, as has been proven throughout history time and time again with all kinds of beliefs. So . . . I really don't know what it is you are arguing about, unless you are saying that spirituality has to come from a believe in a god or gods?
> ...



Now, the thread is about why you do NOT believe in god.  I suggest you tackle that question since you are here.  Why don't you believe in god?


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> For SOME people. Not for everyone. Sorry.



No Chris, everyone has the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self. But... just as everyone also has the capacity to climb Mt. Everest, not everyone will. That fact that you do not connect spiritually doesn't mean you can't.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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Oh this is great... So NOW... we're "intelligent enough" to invent something not real to explain the unexplained?


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## BreezeWood (Nov 30, 2015)

.


> - is very much a real thing that cannot be denied and is indisputable throughout human history.




that expression you define is simply a uniqueness confined to humanity as the same in conception to all living creatures, whether your deranged secular disdain approves of it or not.

Spirituality = Being

.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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Well... I don't believe in man-made religious incarnations of God because I believe all humans are flawed and imperfect. Even IF such a God exists, it is beyond anything our human minds could ever comprehend. So the idea of a "Godhead" figure, I reject. What I reference as "God" is Spiritual Nature. This is more than something I simply "have faith" in, I experience it and know it. I suspect others do as well, which is why they formed religions to explain it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Yes, we have done this throughout history as has been demonstrated to you.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Have you ever heard of "fiction" before?


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Well then what is there to have "faith" in about spirituality?   What exactly is it that you experience that you consider "spiritual?"


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Yes, we have done this throughout history as has been demonstrated to you.



Well, no... you've yet to demonstrate how you can *make up* something and it has explanatory power. In every example you've ever presented, the person must first BELIEVE before anything is explained by it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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> ChrisL said:
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> > Yes, we have done this throughout history as has been demonstrated to you.
> ...



All the examples I've given you.  All religions are made up.  You even said so yourself!


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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But people don't go to the gallows, get fed to the lions, have their entire family killed or their civilizations wiped out over fiction. That doesn't seem to be a very smart creature. In fact, Darwin would say that such a species would endanger itself to extinction by retaining such a non-beneficial attribute.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > Yes, we have done this throughout history as has been demonstrated to you.
> ...



No, you do not, as I demonstrated with the vampire myth.  Then we have numerous cults and other such things.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Sure they do.  They even commit suicide, murder people and commit genocide, among other things.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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Yes, the RELIGION is made up... the spirituality which cause the religion, is not.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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Again, things people BELIEVED. If they didn't first believe, there is no explanatory power.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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Lol.  Says you.  There are plenty of people who do not have this "spirituality" that you speak of.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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That's not true at all.  People hear stories of Big Foot and other such things and then they believe them to be real and even sometimes hallucinate that they actually see these creatures.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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Because they BELIEVE in something... it's not FICTION.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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No.. .we ALL have it... some of us don't use it.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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They believe in it based upon what?


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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I disagree, and am living proof.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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They still must first BELIEVE.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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No, they have to be gullible is all.  Lol.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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Their spiritual connection.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

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What is that?  Connection to WHAT?


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

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> > ChrisL said:
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Something greater than self, something beyond the physical.


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
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Well, I'm sorry, but not everyone shares your beliefs.  You can insist that they do, but you would be wrong, and here I am!!!


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Well, I'm sorry, but not everyone shares your beliefs. You can insist that they do, but you would be wrong, and here I am!!!



LOL... I have never said that everyone shares my beliefs or that everyone MUST share them. Is that  what you think this is an argument about???


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## ChrisL (Nov 30, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I'm sorry, but not everyone shares your beliefs. You can insist that they do, but you would be wrong, and here I am!!!
> ...



You did claim that everyone has "spirituality."  Right?  Right.    And seriously, all of these people (not you necessarily) who claim to have "beliefs" really do not seem to be very "happy" people, TBH.  This I find to be especially true for those who claim to have found "religion" in their lives.  A bunch of messed up clowns is what they really come across as.  Lol.  

Now, I'm logging off now, so you have a good one.  TTYL!


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> You did claim that everyone has "spirituality." Right? Right.



No, I said everyone has the *capacity* to spiritually connect. Whether you use that capacity or not is a different matter. 

As for "happiness" I beg to differ, again, on scientific grounds. Studies have consistently shown that people with a robust spiritual faith are less depressed, commit fewer suicides, have less occurrences of alcohol and drug abuse and generally live longer lives.


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## BreezeWood (Nov 30, 2015)

.
the same story of Genesis, just boss'ys rendition ....

.


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## Boss (Nov 30, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> the same story of Genesis, just boss'ys rendition ....
> 
> .



Yes, it's funny how all our spiritual beliefs abide the same characteristics of the Everlasting.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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You have no real proof, either link to a real scientific site or author, or stfu. You're done? I agree.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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So spirituality is provable but what comes out of it isn't? You're an idiot. Case closed.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



The "everlasting?"  What???    I thought you weren't religious?


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


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What a creepy statement.  Lol.    Religious people are creepy.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...


He means Everlast, they make jock straps.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You did claim that everyone has "spirituality." Right? Right.
> ...



Well, from my experiences here and elsewhere, it seems that a lot of religious people have some pretty big issues.  Then again, they DO say that ignorance is bliss.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> *I said everyone has the capacity to spiritually connect.* Whether you use that capacity or not is a different matter.
> 
> As for "happiness" I beg to differ, again, on scientific grounds. Studies have consistently shown that people with a robust spiritual faith are less depressed, commit fewer suicides, have less occurrences of alcohol and drug abuse and generally live longer lives.


So now spirituality isn't inherent to humans? Shouldn't we "spiritually connect" naturally? Like sight, you don't have to choose to see, it's something we have naturally.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > *I said everyone has the capacity to spiritually connect.* Whether you use that capacity or not is a different matter.
> ...



What I would like to know is what is it that we are supposedly spiritually connected TO?  With a god, with one another?  It all seems rather abstract, IMO.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > *I said everyone has the capacity to spiritually connect.* Whether you use that capacity or not is a different matter.
> ...



Yes, it is inherent. Stop trying to distort my words, asswipe. 

We do spiritually connect naturally and it is just like sight... close your eyes and refuse to see, dummy! It's real easy to do!  Stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to hear! Close your mind and refuse to think! Humans have an AMAZING ability to ignore their capacity.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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No. Spirituality is unquestionable and has always been a fundamental attribute of the species. Various beliefs that come as the result of being spiritual is not verifiable with physical science because they are spiritual beliefs. Whether or not they are "correct" according to science is irrelevant to them being spiritual beliefs.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I am picking at Breeze who is constantly talking about "the everlasting".  However, there is nothing religious about the idea of something everlasting like spiritual nature. Indeed, it is everlasting because it is beyond space and time of the physical. That's how it can create a physical universe with space and time. 

And it's also not "creepy" Chris. I am quite offended that you are now wanting to call me creepy, after all the complimentary things I have said about you. I am not surprised, however. Mutual cooperation among humans which enabled them to form civilizations was the result of their mutual spiritual connection. Your lack of such connection makes you unreliable and untrustworthy because your default position is rooted in self.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
> ...



It's not 'supposedly', we ARE connected to our spirit and our spirit is connected to spiritual nature. Our capacity to spiritually connect is shared by all humans whether we choose to spiritually connect or not, or whether our spiritual beliefs match or not.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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What compliments?  Lol.  Oh, I see, IOW, I should agree with you and that is your idea of mutual cooperation?    Let's see . . . is that going to happen?  You must know by now that I'm a very opinionated person!


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Most humans are phonies.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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Okay... So I tell you that I am not going to play your "gimme a link" game... then I give you a link and you play the exact game I predicted you would. Then you have the nerve to ask me for ANOTHER link?  No... YOU go find a link to disprove what I've said. Lake Mungo is a very well-documented site of human archaeology. It's the oldest remains of human civilization that I've ever found and it shows clear signs the people of that time had some sort of spiritual belief because they performed ritual ceremony in burial of the dead. If you need to learn more, Google it.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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Yeah, of course they would want to keep some connection with their dead loved ones.  Death of someone close to you is absolutely devastating and a lot of people seek comfort in beliefs.  Some people believe they can talk to their dead ones via a "medium."


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> What compliments?  Lol.  Oh, I see, IOW, I should agree with you and that is your idea of mutual cooperation?    Let's see . . . is that going to happen?  You must know by now that I'm a very opinionated person!



No Chris... I've already told you I don't care if you agree with me, I am not trying to "convert" you. I have no problem with you saying you don't believe what I've said or don't believe in spirituality. My only problem is the supporting arguments you make for your beliefs. When you claim it is something man invented to explain the unexplained, that's when I have a problem because you've not proven your claim. When you say it is "silly superstition" I take exception because, again, you've not proven it. You're displaying your faith and that's fine but your faith does not become statement of fact.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Yeah, of course they would want to keep some connection with their dead loved ones.



LOL... Connection?


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > What compliments?  Lol.  Oh, I see, IOW, I should agree with you and that is your idea of mutual cooperation?    Let's see . . . is that going to happen?  You must know by now that I'm a very opinionated person!
> ...



But I have.  All religions started that way, from the ancient Greeks and into the present day.  The Mayans, the Incans, the Egyptians all had beliefs based on superstition and the feeling that natural events were due to gods being angry with them.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Some people believe they can talk to their dead ones via a "medium."



Can you prove they can't?


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, of course they would want to keep some connection with their dead loved ones.
> ...



Or so they believe.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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But Lake Mungo predates organized religion by about 15~20k years or so.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Some people believe they can talk to their dead ones via a "medium."
> ...



Don't be silly.    Is that something you need proven to you?  Are you one of those who believes the dead communicate with us too?


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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Well they must believe something if they think they can remain connected.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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No, I am just asking you a question. Can you not answer it?


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Yeah?  So what?  What does that prove?  They were still people who had a need to explain the world around them and events that they didn't understand.  Knowing about your own mortality is not an easy thing to deal with.  Of course, people would love to make up and believe in some kind of "afterlife."  Some believe in reincarnation.  

Are all these beliefs real?  Of course not!  If you are saying that all belief systems are based upon reality, then you would have to acknowledge that ALL beliefs are real.  That's crazy talk, IMO.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Is that something you need proven to you?



Yes, if it's going to be stated as a fact, I need proof.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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Of course I cannot prove a negative.  That doesn't mean that those people are dealing in reality though.  Lol.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Is that something you need proven to you?
> ...



Look, if you want to believe in that (which is a con) then you go right ahead.  It makes no difference to me, and I don't really feel any need or desire to prove anything.  I have my "beliefs" which is that it is bullshit, and you have yours, whatever those might be.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Meh, I think if someone claims that something exists, the burden lies on them to prove it.  The burden is not on me to prove a claim false that I never even made.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Again, Chris... doesn't matter if the beliefs are "real" they are still spiritual beliefs. Sounds like your problem is a hang up over what "real" means. And you're being contradictory again... how can humans make up something and have it explain anything? Next time a friend or loved one dies, just tell yourself they are living large with the flying spaghetti monster and you should immediately feel 100% better!  See if your theory works! I predict it will make no difference because you don't believe in flying spaghetti monster.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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Well I have my beliefs too... it's called our FAITH.

But my FAITH does not prove things to be facts.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Some people worship the spaghetti monster.  Are you dissing their religious beliefs?


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Meh, I think if someone claims that something exists, the burden lies on them to prove it.  The burden is not on me to prove a claim false that I never even made.



And I think I have adequately proved that human spirituality does exist and always has. If you are going to maintain it doesn't exist, you need to prove it. You are free to say you don't think it exists... you think it's bullshit... that's your faith and I can't dispute your belief.  Your faith does not ever become proven fact.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Well friend, this thread is about why you do NOT believe, in case you have forgotten where you are.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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> > ChrisL said:
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That's right little girl, run away from the argument.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Yes, you keep reminding me of that whenever you are cornered in your arguments.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Dec 1, 2015)

*Blame God LOL he knows his words are aimed at total RUBES......he knows just how stupid the GOP voters are LOL*

*


Marco Rubio: 9/11 terror attacks were part of God’s plan for the universe*


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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I don't feel cornered at all.  You have your beliefs.  I have my non beliefs.    The thread is actually supposed to be why we do not believe, but here you are.    Lost?


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## peach174 (Dec 1, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



God is not about preventing things.
It is all about saving your internal soul and having eternal life, not things here on Earth.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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Right Chris, but your beliefs keep being presented as facts. That's what I have trouble with. Can't let you get away with that.


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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They are just as much factual to me as your beliefs.    Besides that, I have acknowledged that people have their beliefs.  It seems to be you who is having a difficult time coming to terms that there are humans who do not.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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We all have our beliefs Chris. If someone was here claiming their incarnation of God was a proven fact, I would say the same to them. You are free to say you don't believe in human spirituality, you cannot say "it's made up nonsense to explain the unexplained." One is your belief, the other is something you haven't proved.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


.
you know the difference boss, the Everlasting is not exclusive to humanity but to all freed Spirits.

chose another word than Spiritual for your rendition for "worshiping" boss - it's the least you can do for a subject matter already taken devoid of (your) egregious homilies by its true nature.

.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
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.


> Religious people are creepy



you might wake up someday and define what you refer to as religion and who are religious ...

.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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You can't refuse to be hungry! Refuse to take a dump! Refuse to hear with your fingers in your ears? You hear anyways. Same with sight, close your eyes and you still see shit that is way different than someone who's blind... Sheesh, you never ceased to be wrong.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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> > Boss said:
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Well, I guess i can't argue with gibberish.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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You know, just like whether or not we choose to be hungry.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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So what? It doesn't show that spirituality is inherent to humans. you still have nothing. You don't want to back up your statements with real stuff? that's ok, I tried already and couldn't find anything to support what you say. You're done for sure.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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What the fuck are you rambling incoherently about now, Mudd Head? 

Do you not understand or comprehend what "inherent" means? 

*in·her·ent*
_adjective_

existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.
Human spirituality is inherent. THAT DOES NOT MEAN anyone's spiritual connection is mandatory! Jeesh! Please go and educate yourself above a retard level before you try and engage adults in conversation.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
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Breezy, we've gone over this before. I don't argue that other things aren't spiritually-connected in their own way. I believe that is very much a possibility but I cannot prove it. What I CAN prove is that humans have always been spiritual creatures. Do you disagree or what?

Stop trying to twist the argument around so that you can make some point about your own spiritual viewpoint. It's just plain dumb and I don't need to argue with you about it.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> So what? It doesn't show that spirituality is inherent to humans.



Yes, it does. From the oldest civilization to current times, humans have exhibited spiritual connection to something greater than self. You have ZERO examples of any human civilization that ever existed devoid of spiritual beliefs. NONE! NADDA! ZIPOLLA! 

Spirituality is an inherent human attribute and has been for thousands of years.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > So what? It doesn't show that spirituality is inherent to humans.
> ...


One pile of bones proves spirituality, ummm...no. You have nothing, we'll leave it at that.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You know, just like whether or not we choose to be hungry.



Hunger is a physical reaction of the stomach not having food to digest. It's not an inherent attribute. You are so far out in left field that you're not even in the ballpark anymore. Grasping at desperation in an attempt to save face is not going to work for you here.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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Well sorry there aren't actual humans to speak to from 20,000 years ago, dumb shit!


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> One pile of bones proves spirituality, ummm...no.



It's not the pile of bones, it's what we discover about those bones. The story they tell is one of human spiritual belief. You either accept scientific findings or you ridicule and reject them. I can't make you accept anything, dipshit. Is that what you keep coming here in hopes of???


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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Like I said, you have nothing, let's leave it at that.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > One pile of bones proves spirituality, ummm...no.
> ...


One pile of bones does not prove spirituality. 'Nuff said.

And you have no scientific finding, just a wiki reference. You lose.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
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> > Mudda said:
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Nope... YOU have nothing, we'll leave it at THAT!


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
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> > Mudda said:
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Nope. YOUR OPINION does not equal fact.  You lose.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> And you have no scientific finding...



Huh?  

They have a goddamn National Park there!  It's one of the most prolific archaeological discoveries in human history. Are you some kind of a MORON?  ...Wait, no need to answer that!


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> One pile of bones does not prove spirituality.




This one does. Sorry.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
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I agree, I got nothing from you.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > And you have no scientific finding...
> ...


A national park doesn't equal scientific evidence. Now you know.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > One pile of bones does not prove spirituality.
> ...


You're sorry all right, you have nothing.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.



You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?  

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind! 

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.


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## Mudda (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.
> ...


You presented a wiki page. Nothing more. If you had more, you'd be falling all over yourself to post it and laugh in my face. Too bad you have nothing.


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## Boss (Dec 1, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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Yes, I gave you the Wikipedia page for Lake Mungo so that you can go there and review the many sources available online regarding the various findings at the several sites. I also told you that I have no intention of playing the "gimme a link" game with you because I've been to that rodeo. I already know how that works... you destroy the source and reject the evidence. No sooner than I posted the Wiki link, that's exactly what you attempted to do. And you're still trying to. 

I don't need to laugh in your face. You're making a fool out of yourself with no help from me. You somehow think that I am obligated to change your mind about something here. I don't have to change your mind. I already know and admit that it's not possible to change your mind. So if that's the point you're trying to prove, you win!


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## Bonzi (Dec 1, 2015)

When I read stories like this, I understand why people think Christianity is a joke.  It's sad.....

60-Year-Old Ohio ‘Pastor’ Committing Adultery With Pregnant Teenager Has Wife’s ‘Blessing’

A 60-year-old Ohio former mob enforcer, who now considers himself a minister of God, has “married” his teenage bride and got her pregnant, all with the blessing of the other lady in his life — his 44-year-old wife


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## BreezeWood (Dec 1, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


.


> I don't argue that other things aren't spiritually-connected in their own way. I believe that is very much a possibility _*but I cannot prove it.*_ What I CAN prove is that humans have always been spiritual creatures. Do you disagree or what?



_*
What I CAN prove is that humans have always been spiritual creatures.*_


all living beings are Spiritual, your "proof" as an exclusivity for humans is nothing more than a strawman attempt to elevate your own worth as a superior value for recognition by your God ... that any true Spiritualist can not condone.

the attributes you site may be exclusive to humans but are of an origin other than Spirituality is all I am saying.

.


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> And I showed you irrefutable evidence that human beings make up stories and "gods" to explain that which they do not understand.


???....why do you think your evidence is irrefutable?......if you have some evidence that cannot be refuted which shows the Bible has been made up I would be interested in seeing it.......


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> All the examples I've given you.  All religions are made up.  You even said so yourself!


perhaps the two of you believe that........many of us still expect you to attempt to prove it.......


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I disagree, and am living proof.


and you have the faith in yourself to stand behind what you believe!........


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## ChrisL (Dec 1, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > All the examples I've given you.  All religions are made up.  You even said so yourself!
> ...



That's what I believe, and I've read plenty that supports my opinion and very little that supports your belief.  That is just one reason why I don't believe.  Another is because it is beyond silly.


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 1, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


oh I see.......then you should say "I believe all religions are made up" instead of saying "all religions are made up".......that way people will know they don't have to take you seriously.......


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
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I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.


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## ChrisL (Dec 2, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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Are you slow or something?  What is the title of this thread?  Good grief, get out of here you annoying little insect.


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## ChrisL (Dec 2, 2015)

Mudda said:


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I think I'm going to go into some of the religious threads when these doofuses are trying to have a serious discussion about their ignorant beliefs and start trolling them.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Mudda said:


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I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up. 

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble? 

Here are a few more links: 
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I think I'm going to go into some of the religious threads when these doofuses are trying to have a serious discussion about their ignorant beliefs and start trolling them.



It always happens, you'll be in familiar company.


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## ChrisL (Dec 2, 2015)

Boss said:


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Kind of like what you are doing?


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## ChrisL (Dec 2, 2015)

Boss said:


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The topic is "Why I Don't (which means DO NOT) Believe in God."


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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Chris, I am not going to let your opinions be passed off as facts. I'm sorry if that upsets you but that's how message boards work. I'm not trolling anything, I am just pointing out when you state opinions as facts that haven't been supported. If you don't like it, I suggest you stick to the facts or state your opinions as opinions. You are fully entitled to your own opinion, you aren't entitled to your own facts.


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## ChrisL (Dec 2, 2015)

Boss said:


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Why not?  You seem to think YOU are.  Lol.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

Boss said:


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"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy? 

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


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List the ones that are more profound.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do. 

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual. 

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know. 

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species. 

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality. 

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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Ahh, moving the goalposts. Now it's inherent since man was civilized. So spirituality is something we've learned along the way, making it NOT inherent. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

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It's your claim. What is "most profound" about the finding?


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

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I'm afraid you're wrong now as you were before, bossy. 

Nothing in the oldest human fossil discovery shows signs of your spirit realms. 


Discovery of Oldest Human Fossil Fills Evolutionary Gap - History in the Headlines


You continue to confuse ancient fears and superstitions (which we still call "religion"), with your need to impose your gawds.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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No.. that's been my claim all along. Before we were civilized, I don't know if humans were spiritual or even if they were totally humans. We didn't "learn it along the way" and I didn't say that. I told you what my *opinion* was but I don't know for sure what happened. It IS an inherent trait that has been with humans as long as humans have been civilized creatures. Or at least, as best we can tell, that seems to be the case. There is no evidence of when humans "invented" it.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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So we mutated into spiritual beings? There's no proof of that.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


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Well, it's the oldest human settlement we've ever unearthed and it shows that humans were practicing spiritual beliefs. I think that's pretty profound, don't you agree?


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

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Not profound at all because there is no indication of any spiritual'ness, whatever you hope that slogan to mean.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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Sorry but that's simply not evidence of human civilization. Whenever you find some evidence of human civilizations devoid of spiritual beliefs, let me know. So far, we haven't discovered any.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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But there is and that's what the science shows indisputably.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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Wrong again doofus, the oldest known human settlement is 8500 years old.
Turkish Culture and Tourism Office Website - USA - The oldest known human settlement in the world!


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Mudda said:


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I didn't say we "mutated" into anything. I gave my opinion and I told you it was my opinion and I couldn't prove it. I think at some point, humans became aware of a spiritual connection. How that came to be, I have no way of knowing. What I know for a fact is, at least 40,000 years ago, human beings were spiritual creatures. There has never been a human civilization discovered anywhere on the planet that didn't have some kind of spiritual belief.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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Well you read yourself that Lake Mungo man and woman were 40k years old... so is 40,000 less than 8,500?


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Wrong again doofus, the oldest known human settlement is 8500 years old.
> Turkish Culture and Tourism Office Website - USA - The oldest known human settlement in the world!



What's even MORE hilarious is that your linked example reveals there were *TEMPLES...* sounds like "spiritual belief" to me!  Ooops!


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> ...because there is no indication of any spiritual'ness, whatever you hope that slogan to mean.



Well, in the case of Mungo Man and Mungo Woman, it meant they had ritual ceremonial burials using 'imported' red ocher. There is no practical explanation for this other than spiritual belief.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> You continue to confuse ancient fears and superstitions (which we still call "religion"), with your need to impose your gawds.



I'm not trying to "impose" anything... that is your extremist anti-religion rhetoric. I am merely stating facts we've discovered regarding human civilization. Indeed, humans DID invent religions but it wasn't to "explain the unexplained" or out of "fears" it was because humans are spiritual creatures.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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So it's not inherent. Got it. Thanks.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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You said that it was the earliest human settlement found. You're wrong. Again.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

Boss said:


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> > Wrong again doofus, the oldest known human settlement is 8500 years old.
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I never said that spiritual belief didn't start at some point, or are you laughing at yourself for being wrong again?


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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No... it IS inherent. You're welcome!


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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You have nothing. Go get a clue.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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Huh? How am I wrong because some Turkish tourism cite claims "the oldest settlement" when we both read about Lake Mungo man and woman who were 31,500 years OLDER?  I mean... 8,500 years? That's getting close to the YEC claims, isn't it?  Were the scientists WRONG at Lake Mungo???


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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You don't have to like it, but you're wrong. Move on.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You have nothing. Go get a clue.



YOU go get a clue, fuckhead! You're all over the board today! Next thing you know, you'll be showing me a Christian website that claims  man was created 6k years ago! ANYTHING to refute what I've said!


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You don't have to like it, but you're wrong. Move on.



I'm not wrong and you've not proven me wrong. YOU move on!


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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When did you first realize that you had no clue, so you just make shit up?


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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You'd have to let me move on. Cmon try it, you can do it.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

Mudda said:


> I never said that spiritual belief didn't start at some point...



Well we both saw the evidence that it had to have started LONG before 8,500 years ago because 40k years ago they were performing ritual ceremonies to bury their dead!


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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You seem to be the only one making things up here. I am sticking with known facts.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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I'm not stopping you... just shut up!  It's not hard to do!


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

Boss said:


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I didn't say that either. I just pointed out that you were wrong about Mungo being the earliest civilization found, because you were wrong and you know it.


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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See? You can't stay away from me because you learn so much. I understand.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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How was I wrong when you showed evidence of a civilization from 8,500 years ago? 

Are you illiterate or something? Did you fail math?  40,000 is much older than 8,500! Are you claiming the Lake Mungo discovery is a hoax or something? Please explain!!


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## Mudda (Dec 2, 2015)

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You said it was the oldest human civilization found. It's not, it doesn't qualify as a civilization. Suck it up crybaby.


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## Boss (Dec 2, 2015)

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Now we're into a semantics thing again? You just don't fucking quit, do you?  

I think I originally said "settlement" but whatever.  40k predated 8.5k... even a moron can understand that. Regardless... BOTH examples show evidence of human spiritual belief. 

Did you have a point?


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

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Fuck are you ever stupid. The first civilization was found to be dated to 6500 bc. Your 40k bones aren't considered to form a civilization, they're just a pile of bones. What's not to get? You're wrong again.


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

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Well like I said, you're now relegated to arguing semantics. Humans have been spiritual for all of human civilization. We can go by your contention of civilization origin 6,500 BC or the Lake Mungo settlements from 40k years ago. Both show humans were spiritual. So petty arguing over semantics is irrelevant to the point. Either way, humans are still inherently spiritual creatures.


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

Mudda said:


> they're just a pile of bones.



Says someone who denies Science. 

Those of us who understand how Archaeology works, understand we can learn a lot from "just a pile of bones" and what we've learned from Lake Mungo is that humans then were spiritual. They practiced ritual ceremony burial and cremation of the dead using red ocher and there is no practical explanation other than spiritual belief. 

So if humans were spiritual 40k years ago, human spirituality already existed for thousands of years before you say the first human civilization existed... proving my point that humans have been spiritual as long as humans have been civilized. Your concession is duly noted.


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

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Not my contentions that civilization started 8500 years ago, it's all the scientists who say so. Whereas it's only your opinion that Mungo was a civilization, no one else claims such a thing. Is it sinking in yet that you're wrong?


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

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I said nothing of what you just claimed, but I understand, you're shaken from realizing that you were wrong. The Great Bossy, admits he's wrong! Now go buy a clue, you could use it.
I know that spirituality had to start somewhere, like stone tools, you claimed that it's inherent to humans because of this Mungo find. So I'll state it again, you still have nothing. Please try again.


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

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Okay, I retract my comment that Lake Mungo was a "civilization" and was instead, a settlement. 

You feel better now?  

Humans have always been spiritual... since BEFORE civilization! And even BETTER argument... THANKS!


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

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Did I misquote you saying "just a pile of bones?"


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

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It was in the context of "it's not a civilization, just a pile of bones". So what? You going to nit pick at a word again? Instead of trying to prove that spirituality is inherent to humans? Ahhh! the I-have-nothing deflection time. Carry on.


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Instead of trying to prove that spirituality is inherent to humans?



Obviously it is... We've been spiritual longer than we've been civilized!


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

Boss said:


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Obviously just your opinion. So now we're starting lap 2? You lost lap 1, lap 2 won't be any different unless you come up with something real. Because at the end of lap 1, you had nothing.


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 3, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Not my contentions that civilization started 8500 years ago, it's all the scientists who say so.


if I had a dollar for every idiotic statement ever made in a claim "all scientists say....." I would retire and spend more time here.......


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


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> > Not my contentions that civilization started 8500 years ago, it's all the scientists who say so.
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I posted a link that you're welcome to check out. Google it as well, you'll see. But if you don't believe in science, then nobody can help you.


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

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Dude... you are on record.



> Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
> Third link says,* "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. "* (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
> *Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago.* So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?



You read it and confirmed it... now you are saying there was "nothing"??? 

You really do need to have your head checked. You admitted humans were practicing spiritual beliefs 42k years ago, then started demanding to know why they couldn't have "picked that up along the way" or what about the previous "millions" of years... (humans are thought to have existed 200k years at best).

I went on to explain to you why the cremations were spiritual... the use of red ocher in their ceremony.  I agreed that at some point, humans probably became spiritually aware and it has been an inherent trait of humans ever since. And we don't really know what happened before this because we haven't yet discovered it. But the whole argument began when I said that humans have been spiritual as long as they've been civilized. You've spent the last page arguing (for some reason) they weren't civilized until 8,500 years ago. Okay, so they were being spiritual 42k years ago. Now you laughingly claim I've showed you nothing... what has all this been about?

Why don't you just admit that it does not matter what evidence you're shown, your mind is made up and it's not going to be changed? That would at least be honest and people could respect that if nothing else... but this is pathetic. No, Ronda Rousey, I don't think you need to answer the bell for Round 2.... fight's over, baby!


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

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You never linked the Mungo stuff with spirituality being inherent in humans. Your only defense of your claim is to say something like "because it's obvious that it IS!". Ipso facto, you have nothing.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 3, 2015)

.
*Why I don't believe in God *



> *Boss:*I went on to explain to you why the cremations were spiritual... the use of red ocher in their ceremony - - -  Why don't you just admit that it does not matter what evidence you're shown, your mind is made up and it's not going to be changed?




the evidence does not prove there is a God - nor something greater than [sic] _self_.


... all beings are Spiritual where Life's origin is unknown - and without that knowledge there is no requisite to believe in a "God".

- to worship God is foolhardy ... by the Almighty's own design.

.


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

> You never linked the Mungo stuff with spirituality being inherent in humans. Your only defense of your claim is to say something like "because it's obvious that it IS!". Ipso facto, you have nothing.



An attribute or behavior exhibited for 42k years consistently by any given species is inherent behavior. I'm sorry if you disagree with that. What do you want me to do.. come to your house and twist your arm behind your back until you submit? I can't make you change your mind... it's made up and you're entitled to think whatever you please. I think I've made my case.


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## Boss (Dec 3, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> the evidence does not prove there is a God..



Where did you ever see me say that I could prove God???


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 3, 2015)

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did all scientists sign the web site?......


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## Mudda (Dec 3, 2015)

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Why, you need every single one to sign it before you'll believe something?


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## BreezeWood (Dec 3, 2015)

Boss said:


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.


the god you "worship" is thin air - or was that energy ????

.


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## Boss (Dec 4, 2015)

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Are you not going to answer my question? Where did I state that I could prove God?


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## Mudda (Dec 4, 2015)

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You're still trying to prove spirituality. Or did you give up on that?


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## Mudda (Dec 4, 2015)

Boss said:


> > You never linked the Mungo stuff with spirituality being inherent in humans. Your only defense of your claim is to say something like "because it's obvious that it IS!". Ipso facto, you have nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> An attribute or behavior exhibited for 42k years consistently by any given species is inherent behavior. I'm sorry if you disagree with that. What do you want me to do.. come to your house and twist your arm behind your back until you submit? I can't make you change your mind... it's made up and you're entitled to think whatever you please. I think I've made my case.


You have one cremation, not consistency. Please prove that ALL humans were spiritual from 42k years ago to now. If ALL humans can be shown to be spiritual, I'll accept what you say. Go for it.


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## ChrisL (Dec 4, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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> > > You never linked the Mungo stuff with spirituality being inherent in humans. Your only defense of your claim is to say something like "because it's obvious that it IS!". Ipso facto, you have nothing.
> ...



Does he not realize that every human being is different and have different "beliefs" than he does, or maybe no beliefs in the supernatural at all?  He IS trying to change your mind, regardless of what he tells you.  I think that much is obvious.  He has spent countless days here trying to convince you that you are a "spiritual" person.


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## hobelim (Dec 4, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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> > > You never linked the Mungo stuff with spirituality being inherent in humans. Your only defense of your claim is to say something like "because it's obvious that it IS!". Ipso facto, you have nothing.
> ...




Historically most people have openly professed devotion to and practiced many different superstitions and religions. Boss claims that this fact proves that spirituality is inherent in human beings even though like in the places under ISIS control, historically, they were religious because if they weren't they were killed.

What is inherent in human beings is the survival instinct.


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 4, 2015)

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why yes....I would need every single one to sign it before I'll believe "all scientists say"........or did you miss the whole point of my post......


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## Mudda (Dec 4, 2015)

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Do you get hung up on specific words all the time because you have no real comeback? Or do you actually think that what you comeback on is the point of my post? It's a fucking consensus of fucking scientists, you fucking idiot and a half. Sheez, what a fucking moron you are all the fucking time.


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## Mudda (Dec 4, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


I think that he's knows that his theory is way out there, and he's trying to convince himself by coming here looking for validation for his theory. And he also knows that so far, he has nothing.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 4, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
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.
are you denying "worshiping" your god as previously stated - how do you do that if you have not proven your deity exists ... or why would you either way ?

.


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## Boss (Dec 4, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
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No, but where does it say I have to prove things to you in order to worship them?  

When did I mention a deity? And IF a deity was implied, what does it have to do with proof? 

You sound as if you are an extremely confused person.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 4, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
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.


> No, but where does it say I have to prove things to you in order to worship them?




so you are saying "your" god is proven to yourself or you simply chose to worship something unproven - and who cares what anyone else may think of your indiscretion ... seriously ?

.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Dec 4, 2015)

Scientist have determined that yes indeed " they are eyes without a face "  ? 






Metaphysics


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## Boss (Dec 4, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
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> > BreezeWood said:
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Yes... My "God" is proven to me or else I couldn't have faith. And seriously, I could not care less if anyone else shares my faith. I've never claimed that I could prove God or that you have to believe in MY God, or ANY God. 

The only argument we've had here is the fact that human beings are inherently spiritual creatures and have been so for as long as they've been civilized. It is impossible for everything humans have ever created as a result of their spirituality to be true because it not only often contradicts science but it often contradicts itself. Humans still invent things to believe as a result of a spiritual connection that is inherent to our species. That is undeniable FACT.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 5, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
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> > Boss said:
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.


> *B:* Humans still invent things to believe as a result of a spiritual connection that is inherent to our species. That is undeniable FACT.


_*
- invent things to believe as a result of a spiritual connection ...*_

i guess you only respond without reading -

the reason you are Spiritual is because you do not connect with a perceived external existence, if you connected you would no longer be spiritual but knowing and in your case that can not occur as you believe only your Xod is capable of knowing ... what you take from others you apparently receive for yourself - nice take on your own personalized version of the Golden Rule. . 

.


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## ChrisL (Dec 5, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
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> > Boss said:
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Then why are you here posting about it?  The title of the thread is Why I DO NOT Believe in God.


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 5, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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> > Mudda said:
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when I read these boards and I see something stupid, I point and say "Look! Something stupid!"......there is a very easy way to avoid being pointed at.   Don't blame me if you are too lazy to do something that is so easy to do.......especially since in this case it is likely most scientists don't even have an opinion on when civilization started......


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## ChrisL (Dec 5, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> when I read these boards and I see something stupid, I point and say "Look! Something stupid!"......there is a very easy way to avoid being pointed at.



You must respond to your own posts a lot of times then.    Lol.


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## Mudda (Dec 6, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
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> > PostmodernProph said:
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Actually, they do. Look it up.


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 6, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
> 
> > when I read these boards and I see something stupid, I point and say "Look! Something stupid!"......there is a very easy way to avoid being pointed at.
> ...


/yawn....


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 6, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
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I don't have time to look up "all" scientists......


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## Boss (Dec 6, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Then why are you here posting about it?  The title of the thread is Why I DO NOT Believe in God.



Well, because this is a public message board where people discuss topics. The OP topic is why someone doesn't believe in God and the thread is discussing those reasons. One of the reasons stated was "because it's a bunch of made up nonsense from humans trying to explain the unexplained"  (paraphrased). I challenged that reason because it's invalid and illogical. This prompted an argument over human spirituality and how long human beings have been inherently spiritual. 

USMB, if I am not mistaken, offers the ability to set up private groups and private forums if you would like to set one up for JUST Atheists and JUST have people comment who don't believe in God. However, generally speaking, whenever an Atheist posts why they don't believe in God, the last thing on his mind is having other Atheists reaffirm his disbelief. It's kinda pointless and boring, to be honest.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 6, 2015)

BOSS SAID: 

"One of the reasons stated was "because it's a bunch of made up nonsense from humans trying to explain the unexplained" (paraphrased). I challenged that reason because it's invalid and illogical." 

Wrong.

It's perfectly valid and logical, in addition to being true.

Man developed belief systems in an effort to understand the natural world and assuage his fear of death. Over time these systems evolved into religion, and later a belief in 'gods' and 'god.'

There is no 'god' as perceived by theists.

And your 'challenge' fails as an appeal to ignorance fallacy.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 6, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> There is no 'god' as perceived by theists.


.
is that the same as recognized perceptual cues ... whatever a theist is, by the way.

.


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## Mudda (Dec 6, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> ChrisL said:
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PMP just got owned.


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## Mudda (Dec 6, 2015)

PostmodernProph said:


> Mudda said:
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Google it and you'll find enough links to satisfy a normal person who doesn't keep his head stuck in the sand to avoid being wrong.


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## Boss (Dec 6, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> BOSS SAID:
> 
> "One of the reasons stated was "because it's a bunch of made up nonsense from humans trying to explain the unexplained" (paraphrased). I challenged that reason because it's invalid and illogical."
> 
> ...



Well, this thread is 27 pages long. I've made the argument for why this theory is invalid and illogical and I see no point in repeating myself because you're late to the party. You are welcome to your opinion but your opinion is not a fact.


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## PostmodernProph (Dec 6, 2015)

Mudda said:


> PostmodernProph said:
> 
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in a low rent disctrict?.....hardly....


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## ChrisL (Dec 7, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
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> > There is no 'god' as perceived by theists.
> ...



I was under the impression that a "theist" was one who believed in a god.


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## ChrisL (Dec 7, 2015)

Boss said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
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> > BOSS SAID:
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That goes for you insisting that everyone is "spiritual."


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## Boss (Dec 7, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> That goes for you insisting that everyone is "spiritual."


It's like intelligence.. every human has the capacity for it but not all humans are intelligent. 

From the oldest human settlements to this very day, humans exhibit spiritual behavior. 

Billions upon billions of humans have borne witness and testified to the power of spiritual inner strength. In many cases, they have done things no human ever did before and credited this inner strength. They endured things no human ever endured before, again, crediting this inner strength. 

I don't think I need to insist anything, it is self-evident. The fact that you wish to deny the evidence is irrelevant to the truth. You are entitled to your opinion but it's never going to be a fact.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 7, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> BreezeWood said:
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> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...


.
_*I was under the impression that a "theist" was one who believed in a god.*_

C_Cl must have been referring to an organized religion "theist" otherwise _" There is no 'god' as perceived by theists "_ makes no sense if theism is the belief in a God ... myself, the Almighty is not so relegated.

.


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## sealybobo (Dec 11, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Here's the deal. You have reasons you believe in a god but you do not have evidence a God exists. If you did show me a link confirming your discovery.

And the Jews Christian Mormon and Muslim religions are based apon a lie that God in fact visited them. Even you know they are lying.

Yet each religion believes their stories and they do not believe the others. Christians don't buy Mohammad or Jo Smith. Muslims don't believe Jesus was gods son.


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## ChrisL (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > That goes for you insisting that everyone is "spiritual."
> ...



But you haven't given us ANY evidence.


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Here's the deal. You have reasons you believe in a god but you do not have evidence a God exists.



And what I keep trying to tell you is, you're wrong. I cannot PROVE my God exists. I have plenty of evidence, if I didn't, I couldn't believe. I can show you the evidence all day long but unless you accept it as evidence for God the same as I do, it's pointless. Evidence is subjective. 

Here, let me give you an example of what I mean... Do you love your mother? (I assume that you probably do.) Can I say that you have no evidence you love your mother? Because you haven't proven the evidence to me or proved your love for your mother to me, can I argue that it doesn't exist? I can pound my fist and demand you show me proof... does that change how much you love your mother? You see... YOU know that you love your mother. You don't need to prove that to me or anyone. It doesn't matter if I believe you or even if you can prove it to me, that has no bearing on whether your love for your mother exists. 



> If you did show me a link confirming your discovery.



Show you a link proving the existence of God???  How am I to do that?  

Show me a link proving the existence of the love you have for your mother? 



> And the Jews Christian Mormon and Muslim religions are based apon a lie that God in fact visited them. Even you know they are lying.
> 
> Yet each religion believes their stories and they do not believe the others. Christians don't buy Mohammad or Jo Smith. Muslims don't believe Jesus was gods son.



Well I am not here to defend man-made religions. I am on record... man-made religions are inherently flawed because humans created them. But let's clear up one of your big misconceptions of life... A LIE is not belief in something untrue. A LIE is an intentional misleading of others with something that is known to be untrue. You make a bold accusation here without backing it up.... and I have a problem with that. In order to support your claim of a lie, you need to show some evidence that people were intentionally misled. You may THINK they were, but that's only your opinion... your opinions are not facts. 

I can't say what happened to Abraham on that mountain... maybe he was nibbling on some mushrooms one day and started seeing and hearing things? I have no idea, I wasn't there. But because human beings are inherently spiritual creatures with a nature which compels them to acknowledge something greater than self, this manifests itself into man-made religions. It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, they are spiritually inspired beliefs that humans have always had.


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## ChrisL (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the deal. You have reasons you believe in a god but you do not have evidence a God exists.
> ...



You should quit.  Lol.  You are only spouting your own opinions.  They aren't more valid.


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> But you haven't given us ANY evidence.



How much evidence do you need that human beings are spiritually-inspired creatures? We have 42,000 years of archaeology to support that. 

Look... let me take your SAME argument and apply it to LOVE... Can you provide evidence that LOVE exists? Obviously, humans experience an emotion we call LOVE. But what is that? Can you define what constitutes LOVE? Can you prove LOVE to me? Can you show me evidence of your LOVE for someone else? What if I tell you that I don't believe LOVE exists... it's just something we made up to console our fears? How long will you spend arguing with my denial of LOVE?


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> You should quit. Lol. You are only spouting your own opinions. They aren't more valid.



Nope... I am spouting FACTS.  You and silly boob are interjecting your OPINIONS and demanding they be accepted as FACTS.  That is why this argument rages on.


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## ChrisL (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > But you haven't given us ANY evidence.
> ...



This is not evidence though.  Lol.


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## ChrisL (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You should quit. Lol. You are only spouting your own opinions. They aren't more valid.
> ...



What facts?  I've not seen any from you.


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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What do you mean, goofy? Of course it's evidence!


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## ChrisL (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Evidence of what?


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Well, the fact that human beings are spiritually-inspired creatures and have been for as long as we can find any remnants of human settlement or civilization. That's just indisputable fact. Whether it's all in our heads or figment of imagination, that's up to you to decide... there's no PROOF of anything. But the fact remains, whether any truth at all is there, humans DO believe in something greater than self and always have. 

There is a somewhat famous quote by Freud, I think... he said, "If there were no such thing as God, man would have to invent him."  Now, Atheists will use this quote to say... ah-ha! So man MUST have invented God! But that isn't the point Freud is making at all... It's that our minds are such that we MUST have something greater than self to have faith in. We're "hard wired" to be spiritual and be spiritually connected to something. Whether we accept that or deny it, doesn't really matter.


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## ChrisL (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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SOME humans do.  SOME.


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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Human spirituality. Are you not keeping up?


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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No.. ALL humans.  You are trying to exemplify your lack of religious faith as proof but there are some flaws in your logic. First of all, religion is not spiritual connection. You can be very spiritually-connected (like me) and not be the least bit religious. Secondly, you've not lived your entire life yet so you can't say what you have or haven't managed to live with or without. And finally, there is what you and I define as "spiritual" and they can be completely different. In other words, you can have the spiritual belief in something greater than self but refuse to identify that as "spirituality" even though, that's what it is. I can't confirm or deny what's inside your heart. 

Humans are intrinsically hard-wired to be spiritually-connected to something greater than self... it's why we're not still living in trees flinging shit at each other. If it makes you feel better to disbelieve that, fine... you can believe whatever you please. But it's simply not a fact.


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## ChrisL (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Nope, they are not.  You have just been brainwashed to believe so.  You have your own belief system, and that is all it is.  It has no effect on me, and that has nothing to do with civility, etc.


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Nope, they are not. You have just been brainwashed to believe so. You have your own belief system, and that is all it is. It has no effect on me, and that has nothing to do with civility, etc.



You sound like the one who has been brainwashed. We all have our own belief system, I've never argued otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that humans are spiritually-inspired creatures and always have been. Some people cleverly disguise their spiritual beliefs as something else because they've built up this negative connotation over a word they believe is associated with religion. If we converse long enough, we can get to the core of your personal belief system and it likely will have something to do with something beyond your capacity as an individual organism. Just the acknowledgement that you have a "belief system" is evidence of your spirituality.


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## Boss (Dec 12, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> ...and that has nothing to do with civility...



And if THIS is going to be stated as if it's a fact, it has to be supported with evidence which you're failing to provide. You see... that's the only real problem I ever have arguing with the Atheists. They constantly want to present these opinions as facts when they haven't supported them with evidence. 

When we observe the things which make up a "civilized" society, we find they are rooted in faith. We begin with having faith in another. At some point, one human had faith that another human wouldn't kill him as he slept. Nature didn't do that, the laws of nature say.. I'm stronger, you're weaker, you die, I survive. I kill your tribe so my tribe has more resources. But "civility" comes through faith and trust. Had it not been for our ability to actualize something greater than self, a "higher purpose" as it were, we would never have become civilized. We would still be primitive creatures with no concept of morality or humanity.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 12, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


.


> *Bos:* Whether it's all in our heads or figment of imagination ... humans DO believe in something greater than self and always have.




the " greater than self " is purely a gratuitous argument of ones own self worth, as demeaning and requiring worship rather than solutions. a flaw in humanity that would lead eventually to the species extinction - - > called religion.

no Fauna and Flora do not follow your brand of Spiritualism bossy, thankfully.

.


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## Mudda (Dec 13, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > ...and that has nothing to do with civility...
> ...


You present spirituality as fact without any tangible proof. How is that different?


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## Boss (Dec 13, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You present spirituality as fact without any tangible proof. How is that different?



Because there IS proof. 42k years ago, humans were being spiritual while burying the dead. Regardless of whether the things they believed were accurate or true, they still held the* spiritual belief* they were true. 

Okay look at it like this... IF I SAID: _*There is no evidence that anyone believes in UFOs!*_ Would you say that is a correct statement? What is wrong with that statement if I don't believe in any evidence for UFOs? Well-- first of all, it's OBVIOUS people DO believe in UFOs. Whether their beliefs are valid is not the issue. Whether their evidence is legitimate or you accept it as evidence, doesn't matter with regard to the fact that some people *DO* believe in UFOs. 

Humans are spiritual... that means, they are connected with something outside of the physical self or their own physical self-awareness. There may be all kinds of arguments over what exactly that thing is, but humans do have this behavioral attribute, it's fundamental to our humanity and it has existed in anything we could ever call a human (homo sapien). To claim there is no evidence for this is absurd.


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## Boss (Dec 13, 2015)

Mudda said:


> *...without any tangible proof...*



What I keep getting from you and other Atheists is this  continuing demand for some kind of physical proof (tangible) for something that is spiritual in nature. There is a very clear paradox here. How can I show you physical evidence of something that, once it has _'physical'_ evidence, can no longer be a spiritual thing, *by* definition?  

Looking for the physical evidence of anything spiritual in nature, including God... is like looking for the shark in Jaws on Mt. Everest.  You're not looking in the right place. You're never going to find the evidence there. If you ever did find evidence there, it would contradict what you're looking for. 

Okay... but let's set this aside for a moment and entertain your thought... You want some kind of "tangible proof" for this thing I keep referencing as "spiritual nature" in my posts... Why don't you tell me, as an objective analyst, what would you expect to see in terms of something that would "prove" spiritual nature exists to you? Give me some examples of things you think would convince you that spiritual nature is real? (...From a purely physical standpoint, of course.)

Yeah... not that easy to do, is it?


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## Mudda (Dec 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You present spirituality as fact without any tangible proof. How is that different?
> ...


The belief in UFOs isn't inherent to humans, just like spirituality. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Mudda (Dec 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > *...without any tangible proof...*
> ...


You're the one who claims spirituality as a fact that's inherent to humans. Up to you to find proof and present it.


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## hobelim (Dec 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Humans are intrinsically hard-wired to be spiritually-connected to something greater than self... it's why we're not still living in trees flinging shit at each other.



People are still flinging shit at each other all over the whole world. Its just more highly evolved shit flinging.

And as has been pointed out to you numerous times, it is the instinct to survive that is intrinsically hard-wired.

As far back as you want to go people practiced superstition and religion historically because if they didn't they were excluded from social life, persecuted, and killed.

Thats a fact. If you don't believe me you can look it up.


To this day many Christians who profess love thy neighbor openly set aside the teaching of Jesus and practice anathema because of one sentence written by Paul. Go figure. How many people today practice Christianity simply out of fear of the threatened financial ruin and suffering related to being marked as a pariah and banished from the support of the community?. How many people profess to believe in and practice Islam simply out of the fear of being beaten mutilated and dismembered? How many atheists on this board would be on their hands and knees praying fervently towards mecca if they were living under such a threat?


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## Boss (Dec 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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Well it is and it has been. You've been shown the evidence, it has been presented several times. Even tried using an analogy to get your to understand but you're unable to comprehend. If you insist on sitting there ignoring it, I can't help that. 

I didn't "claim spirituality as a fact" ...I claimed humans have spirituality and that's a fact. It's behavior that is inherent because we've had it for 42k years or longer. Until you can present another species who has exhibited any behavior for 42k years that is NOT inherent, then biology supports my argument and you have nothing. 

And I think that's the whole problem here... you have nothing. So you have decided to bow up and be as goofy as you can. I guess pretending you're a rodeo clown has worked in debates before for you?


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## Boss (Dec 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
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I didn't argue the belief in UFOs is inherent. That was not the point of the analogy.


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## Mudda (Dec 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
> ...


Even if we've had spirituality for over 42,000 years. If it started somewhere, it's not inherent. As well, that "evidence" in no way proves that ALL humans are spiritual. Even you can see that.


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## Boss (Dec 14, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Humans are intrinsically hard-wired to be spiritually-connected to something greater than self... it's why we're not still living in trees flinging shit at each other.
> ...



It's been pointed out numerous times your theory is full of flaws. First of all, the instinct to survive is inherent to ALL living things. The nuts and bolts are, that's kind of what separates living and non-living things. If you are a living organism, you possess the instinct to survive. Applying that and then trying to pretend it's the only thing inherent in humans is simple-minded retardation of the special kind. Seriously, you need to be riding the short bus. 

Fear often motivates behavior, there is no question about that. However, irrational fear is not retained as a fundamental behavioral characteristic of anything that I am aware of. So to make your theory work, we have to imagine a universe where some humans know they are telling a lie and manipulating others who react out of fear. If this defined human spirituality we'd call it "politics!" It would have taken an intelligent species such as human about 200-300 years to realize they were being manipulated by lying power brokers and that would have been the end of human spirituality in our species. 

To give us examples of religions that have exploited and manipulated people is just more evidence of our strong and profound human spirituality. If we weren't intrinsically spiritual creatures, religion couldn't exploit anything or manipulate anyone.


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## Boss (Dec 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Even if we've had spirituality for over 42,000 years. If it started somewhere, it's not inherent. As well, that "evidence" in no way proves that ALL humans are spiritual. Even you can see that.



Then by your criteria, _(If it started somewhere, it's not inherent.)_ there is no such thing as *inherent behavior *and that term has no meaning. 

I never said all humans are spiritual. Why do you continue to insist on twisting my words and trying to distort the things I am saying? All humans have the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self, with the exception of humans who have no cognizance or valid mental faculties. Some people choose not to utilize their capacity... no argument there!


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## Mudda (Dec 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Even if we've had spirituality for over 42,000 years. If it started somewhere, it's not inherent. As well, that "evidence" in no way proves that ALL humans are spiritual. Even you can see that.
> ...


Eating is inherent. Without it we die. 

"All humans have the capacity to spiritually connect with something greater than self". You have not proven this yet. Define "greater than self" then prove it.


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## Boss (Dec 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



*inherent: *existing in something as a permanent, essential, *or* characteristic attribute. It doesn't say anything about inherent meaning something a living thing cannot live without. That would be an "essential" thing and "essential" things are often inherent. But that isn't what "inherent" means. 

Again.. we run into a problem with you and definitions of words.


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## Mudda (Dec 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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You have nothing. Give up.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


.
Mudd:_* Define "greater than self" then prove it.*_

for some reason that person confuses Spirituality, inherent to all living beings with his unique  interpretation that to "worship", his actual subject matter is distinct to humanity as no other species bend in prayer and pay homage to his "god" - rather than worshiping as a flaw and certainly an anathema to atheists and others, etc.

Spirituality is evidence for an Almighty, worshiping as a trait of humanity is correct ... they are not interconnected.

.


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## Boss (Dec 14, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Nope... You need to make a case for everything having the capacity to connect spiritually. You've not presented that evidence. The only thing we know of that makes a conscious connection to something they realize as a power greater than self, is human beings. And don't go posting pictures of flowers and bugs... unless you have one that is praying or meditating and scientific evidence which shows that is happening, don't bother. You don't have evidence. 

We've had this argument before. I willingly admitted that other life forms COULD be spiritually connected and we just don't know about it... that's possible. I realize you believe that is a fact but until you have offered some evidence it is only your faith-based opinion.


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## Boss (Dec 14, 2015)

Mudda said:


> You have nothing. Give up.



Translation: Please shut up since I can't refute your argument and I don't know anything else to do but repeat that you've got nothing!


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## BreezeWood (Dec 14, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


.
you simply do not understand the argument you are making -


B: _*The only thing we know of that makes a conscious connection to something they realize as a power greater than self, is human beings.*_

You are describing "worship" not Spirituality - for the hundredth time ....


B: _*unless you have one that is praying or meditating and scientific evidence which shows that is happening, don't bother. You don't have evidence.*_

what you have " *praying or meditating  " *is evidence of WORSHIP that for some is considered a regression from Spirituality - -  > get it ?








how are you not able to recognize what you, yourself refer to as a Spiritual connection existing in the above example - it is you who are in denial of obvious evidence of true Spirituality and a conection to the Almighty.


and frankly, your worshiping throughout the ages has never produced a return call that obviously is another example of your blind arrogance and corruption of Spiritual existance.

.


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## Boss (Dec 15, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...



Nope. Worship is not Spirituality. Worship is the ritual of homage, honor, appreciation and devotion. It is unrelated to our capacity to connect to something greater than self. People can be very spiritually connected and never worship. You are attempting to connect religious worship to spirituality... tie them together at the hip so that you can condemn them both one in the same. I've invested too much time here segregating the two to allow you to do this. Spirituality and worship are two absolutely different things. 

I appreciate more of the pretty flower pictures. It is surely representative of the amazing work of our spiritual Creator. It simply doesn't provide evidence there is any spiritual connection being made by the organism or any conscious recognition of such. Not saying there isn't any, just that you've not given evidence of it.


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## ChrisL (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...




Lol.  I keep asking you what is this "thing" that you (not me - LOL) is supposedly "connecting" with??  Explain please.  

Oh, now you are saying there is a "spiritual creator??"  

Spirituality exists in your own head but nowhere else.    Get used to it.  No god or "spiritual creator" is going to help you.  You are on your own.


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## ChrisL (Dec 15, 2015)

Better make this life mean something.  I'm quite sure it's the only one you get.


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## Boss (Dec 15, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Lol.  I keep asking you what is this "thing" that you (not me - LOL) is supposedly "connecting" with??  Explain please.
> 
> Oh, now you are saying there is a "spiritual creator??"
> 
> Spirituality exists in your own head but nowhere else.    Get used to it.  No god or "spiritual creator" is going to help you.  You are on your own.



I know, you keep coming to this thread like a moth to a light bulb, don't you? All for the purpose of somehow convincing me that what I "believe in" isn't real. When you tire of mocking me and ridiculing my views, you denigrate me and call me dumb. And it drives you nuts that this isn't working to persuade me,  I still "believe in" the same things. So you just keep repeating the cycle over and over in hopes that one day it will have the desired effect. 

Yes, I believe we have a spiritual Creator... and you believe what?  That physical nature created itself?  The universe is... (ahem) Eternal?  What is your explanation for why we exist? 

Here's the problem, I am the kind of guy who doesn't really have a lot of faith in anything. I have a hard time with faith that I am reassured of, much less, blind faith. For me, things have to make sense and follow logic. That's why I can't comprehend physical nature being able to create itself... it doesn't make sense. Some other force had to create the physical or it can't exist. 

I spent a long time in the wilderness, not knowing what I believed. Not feeling a connection to anything, especially not anything spiritual. I can't tell you a day or hour that I changed my mind because I think it's always been inside of me, I just wasn't aware. I went through a series of life-changing events where all my hopes and dreams were shattered and my life had to start completely over. While grasping to cope with this, I read several books about the power of positive thinking, meditation, that kind of thing... nothing in particular... no "enlightenment moment" where it all made sense... just random reading and studying on how to make myself better, how to heal... It was through this that I began to realize a common thread. Faith in the power of something greater than yourself. 

I began, on my own with no instruction... to devote a little time each day to meditation. I usually do this in the morning with coffee and in the late evening when I lay down. There are no other distractions, I turn off the computer or TV... just me alone with my thoughts. I clear my mind of everything I am thinking about, all my assorted problems and things I need to get done... I focus on my person... who I am... who I want to be... I think about things helping me and hurting me with the objectives I have for myself. And this is where it get's interesting because I can't really explain what happens to someone who hasn't experienced it. Sometimes, ten minutes, twenty minutes... maybe even 30... I begin to feel a connection with an energy that is not physical. It is emanating around me like a whirlwind but it's not felt in a physical sense. 

The more I practiced this meditation ritual, the more I began to feel comfortable with this energy and the more I began to explore utilizing it to my advantage. I started to notice a difference almost immediately in the way I handled things. My decision-making process, my train of thought, my attitude in general were all improved. Things began to go well for me. Problems I thought were insurmountable became nothing at all. Most incredibly, I no longer felt hungry inside... I didn't have that feeling that something was missing. 

Naturally, after a while I began to take all of this for granted and I kind of slacked off on the meditation thing for a while... well, guess what? I could tell a difference. Things started to go to shit again for me and that's when I think the switch went on in my head... I realized that my spiritual connection was important to me. So now... when I encounter goofballs who proclaim "it's all made up nonsense" ...I just laugh at that.  You may as well be trying to convince me my mother doesn't exist.


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## hobelim (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...




"If we weren't intrinsically spiritual creatures, religion couldn't exploit anything or manipulate anyone."


An incoherent post based largely on projection and unsubstantiated assertions finished with perhaps the dumbest non sequitur I ever read on these boards.

Congratulations.


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## Boss (Dec 15, 2015)

hobelim said:


> "If we weren't intrinsically spiritual creatures, religion couldn't exploit anything or manipulate anyone."
> 
> 
> An incoherent post based largely on projection and unsubstantiated assertions finished with perhaps the dumbest non sequitur I ever read on these boards.
> ...



Sorry it went flying over your empty head is all I can say.  

Do Christians and Muslims exploit or manipulate you or create fear in you? Of course not, because you don't believe in their religion. If anything, you fight against them with every fiber of your being.... which completely contradicts your argument. You can't be manipulated, exploited or caused to fear something you do not believe in. 

Religion exploits and manipulates those who have spiritual faith.


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## hobelim (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> Do Christians and Muslims exploit or manipulate you or create fear in you? Of course not, because you don't believe in their religion. If anything, you fight against them with every fiber of your being.... which completely contradicts your argument. You can't be manipulated, exploited or caused to fear something you do not believe in.
> 
> Religion exploits and manipulates those who have spiritual faith.




Nonsense.

Religion exploits and manipulates those who profess to have spiritual faith and demonizes persecutes and kills anyone who rejects it.

Even the most maudlin religion of them all openly practices anathema ruthlessly.

Human beings are social creatures. Many are content in blindly following their leaders if by doing so they can live life without the additional burden of being labeled a pariah.

And the most obvious reason that superstitious religions continue to exist at all is not because of some imaginary inherent spiritual quality but because of the brainwashing through institutionalized mental, emotional, and physical abuse suffered by believers when they were too small to know the difference between right and wrong and true and false and reality and fantasy.


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## Mudda (Dec 15, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


"Spirituality is evidence for an Almighty". Ummm... no. It's only proof that we make shit up to explain that which we do not understand.


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## Mudda (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You have nothing. Give up.
> ...


You may feel smug all you want, but the fact is, you haven't convinced ANYONE of your bs. NOT ONE PERSON.


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## Mudda (Dec 15, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Better make this life mean something.  I'm quite sure it's the only one you get.


Sorry, you have no proof of that. So it's pure speculation, or wishful thinking.


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## Boss (Dec 15, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Do Christians and Muslims exploit or manipulate you or create fear in you? Of course not, because you don't believe in their religion. If anything, you fight against them with every fiber of your being.... which completely contradicts your argument. You can't be manipulated, exploited or caused to fear something you do not believe in.
> ...



All you're doing now is spewing hate and vile because I destroyed your argument. You weren't "brainwashed" ...you're still alive... what the fuck happened there? Religion hasn't killed you yet? You'd blindly follow Hillary or Barry O off a cliff... but not ANY religious leader... so how does your stupid argument to the contrary hold water? You're a living example of how your entire theory is total and utter bullshit. 

Religions exist because humans are intrinsically spiritual creatures who believe in something greater than self. They've been around long before you and will be around long after you... and I'll venture to guess, religion will have absolutely nothing to do with causing your demise.


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## Boss (Dec 15, 2015)

Mudda said:


> "Spirituality is evidence for an Almighty". Ummm... no. It's only proof that we make shit up to explain that which we do not understand.



But it's not, because that is irrational and illogical. Do the experiment, Mr. Science!  Next time you want a question answered, just make up some nonsensical explanation and see if that works for you! Unless you are a mental patient in a psych ward, it won't. 

What we did (because we are *inspired*) to explain what we didn't understand, was to create this thing we call *SCIENCE!*  And so now, we have little misguided idiots like you who worship at the alter of Science with all the fanaticism of a radical Islamic. How dare someone question the Holy Grail of Evolution?


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## Boss (Dec 15, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



I'm not here to convince people... that's YOUR gig!  I am here to set your falsehoods straight and school your ignorant ass. I love destroying your fantasies... it's kind of a hobby for me.


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## Mudda (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > "Spirituality is evidence for an Almighty". Ummm... no. It's only proof that we make shit up to explain that which we do not understand.
> ...


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## Mudda (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > "Spirituality is evidence for an Almighty". Ummm... no. It's only proof that we make shit up to explain that which we do not understand.
> ...


Dumb nigs like you give the rest of them a bad rap. Making up non-sensical explanations seem to work very well for you. I rest case.


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## Mudda (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


You haven't proven jack-shit yet, fool. You'd be more use picking bananas.


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## Boss (Dec 15, 2015)

Wow... A couple of racist slurs to cap things off!  

Well done!


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## BreezeWood (Dec 15, 2015)

Boss said:


> Wow... A couple of racist slurs to cap things off!
> 
> Well done!


.


> Bossy:_* I'm not here to convince people... that's YOUR gig! I am here to set your falsehoods straight and school your ignorant ass. I love destroying your fantasies... it's kind of a hobby for me.*_




let the innocent be set free ...

.


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## hobelim (Dec 16, 2015)

Boss said:


> All you're doing now is spewing hate and vile because I destroyed your argument. You weren't "brainwashed" ...you're still alive... what the fuck happened there? Religion hasn't killed you yet?




Apparently you are a moron.

No, I am not brainwashed, but its not for lack of trying, and no I am not dead yet, but I have known suffering and persecution ever since grade school directly related to my open rejection of religion and the nonsense religious actors and lying frauds preach.

Do you think these children are in church because of some inherent spirituality or are they in church because they have no choice and are being brainwashed into acting spiritual out of fear?


Do you not think that many of these children who do not have the courage or will to resist will remain affected and enslaved by this mental and emotional abuse and pretend to be devoted church members for the rest of their lives?


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## Boss (Dec 16, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > All you're doing now is spewing hate and vile because I destroyed your argument. You weren't "brainwashed" ...you're still alive... what the fuck happened there? Religion hasn't killed you yet?
> ...



Here is what you said in #1352 above: 
*Religion exploits and manipulates those who profess to have spiritual faith and demonizes persecutes and kills anyone who rejects it.*

This was a response to my post in #1351: 
*You can't be manipulated, exploited or caused to fear something you do not believe in.  Religion exploits and manipulates those who have spiritual faith.*

So it seems we're both in agreement that religion can only exploit or manipulate you if you're a believer in the religion. What you said that I took exception to was that "*religion demonizes, persecutes and kills anyone who rejects it."  *That's when I asked you how you had managed to avoid death and persecution... which you simply didn't answer. Instead, you chose to jump back on the argument about manipulation which we both agreed on. 

You tacitly admitted that you had not succumb to persecution or death but it wasn't for lack of trying. So I am interested in knowing about these attempts on your life and public persecution you've endured on behalf of religion. If you have a YouTube video to show me of that, then you will have proven your claim. 

Now, let's dispatch the claims of "demonizing" because... well, you have to believe in demons to be demonized. I assume you don't believe in demons since you don't believe in God. So nobody can demonize you. The only persecution I ever see happening in these threads is your persecution of Christians and Jews. And the only religion that is killing people today is radical Islam, whom you defend like they are your BFF. 

You have what I like to call a "cotton candy argument" ...spun into something nice and big but quickly dissolves when ingested. You can't be demonized, you haven't had your life threatened and you're the one doing all the persecuting.


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## Mudda (Dec 16, 2015)

Boss said:


> Wow... A couple of racist slurs to cap things off!
> 
> Well done!


You'd probably lose your dumb argument to a banana as well.


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## hobelim (Dec 16, 2015)

Boss said:


> Here is what you said in #1352 above:
> *Religion exploits and manipulates those who profess to have spiritual faith and demonizes persecutes and kills anyone who rejects it.*
> 
> This was a response to my post in #1351:
> ...




No, not necessarily. By professing devotion to one religion or another certain people claim moral authority and usurp lofty positions in society where they can easily exploit and manipulate believers and unbelievers alike by influencing laws and customs to reflect their perverse views, reward believers and punish unbelievers..

In this very country it is currently perfectly legal for any religion to screw up the brains of innocent children and collect money from their parents for the privilege tax free.


Did you watch the video? Were those children demonstrating spirituality or were they pretending because they were being abused?




Boss said:


> That's when I asked you how you had managed to avoid death and persecution... which you simply didn't answer. Instead, you chose to jump back on the argument about manipulation which we both agreed on.
> 
> You tacitly admitted that you had not succumb to persecution or death but it wasn't for lack of trying. So I am interested in knowing about these attempts on your life and public persecution you've endured on behalf of religion. If you have a YouTube video to show me of that, then you will have proven your claim.




This is not about me. Have you never heard what happens to people who challenge the authority of any religion? read a history book or a newspaper.




Boss said:


> Now, let's dispatch the claims of "demonizing" because... well, you have to believe in demons to be demonized. I assume you don't believe in demons since you don't believe in God. So nobody can demonize you. The only persecution I ever see happening in these threads is your persecution of Christians and Jews. And the only religion that is killing people today is radical Islam, whom you defend like they are your BFF.
> 
> You have what I like to call a "cotton candy argument" ...spun into something nice and big but quickly dissolves when ingested. You can't be demonized, you haven't had your life threatened and you're the one doing all the persecuting.



People who have no beliefs in demons are often demonized by religious people especially for not believing.

I'm sorry I didn't realize this before.....

You are just an asshole.


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## Boss (Dec 16, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Here is what you said in #1352 above:
> ...



I'm sorry, but I wouldn't think you could be 'demonized' any more than you could be 'baptized'.  It shouldn't matter to you or bother you what religious people think or say about you. It doesn't bother me. They can't 'demonize' me and make it mean anything to me. Are you getting hurt feelings because they 'demonize' you while you hurl every slur and denigration you can at them? I would think a big bad Atheist such as yourself would pull up your big girl panties and get over it... wear it as a badge of honor that you were important enough to demonize. 

*No, not necessarily. By professing devotion to one religion or another certain people claim moral authority and usurp lofty positions in society where they can easily exploit and manipulate believers and unbelievers alike by influencing laws and customs to reflect their perverse views, reward believers and punish unbelievers..*

Whoa there Fonzie, you've jumped the shark here. Exploitation and manipulation cannot be tied to our laws and customs or else the only resolve is total lawless chaos and anarchy. I'm sorry but we cannot live in a society where religion is banned because those have never worked. The whole reason we came here and forged a nation was to escape religious persecution and be able to live in a free society where we could worship as we please. 

We don't live in a kingdom or monarchy. Religious people don't just up and appoint themselves to "lofty positions in society" and start imposing their will on everyone. We function in a democratic or republican way by allowing communities, states and cities to collectively appoint these positions. Sometimes it may include a process of voting. 

Now... It SOUNDS like what your problem REALLY is... is that too many people who are religious are getting voted into these positions of power where they can influence our laws. But, you see, in a FREE society, that's how things work. We all have an equal voice, yours is not more important than mine. So we can't just silence the religious and forbid them from holding public office. And we can't dictate that they only make decisions contrary to their religious beliefs. How would you feel if you were elected to power and told you can only forge laws or implement your power based on the commands of God (which you don't believe in)? That wouldn't seem right, would it? But that's what you seem to want from the religious who are in power... for them to abandon their core beliefs, disregard them and rule according to what you believe. 

I'm sorry that you find yourself living in a society where you're in the vast overwhelming minority, but... that's life. You could be living in a society that saws off your head or stones you to death for not observing religious rituals. Those types of societies generally emerge from people who have your thought process... silence those who don't believe as you do.


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## Boss (Dec 16, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Do you think these children are in church because of some inherent spirituality or are they in church because they have no choice and are being brainwashed into acting spiritual out of fear?



I have no idea. I can't speak for them and neither can you. I've already submitted that people can and do misinterpret their spiritual connection... it's what gave us religions in the first place. I would say that if people weren't inherently spiritual creatures, events as depicted in your video simply wouldn't be possible. Exploitation through spiritual beliefs isn't something I need to see proof of, I've already admitted this happens frequently. It doesn't mean there is no tangible benefit of religion or that everything religion does is bad.


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## Grendelyn (Dec 16, 2015)

tyroneweaver said:


> Your concept of God is flawed. The God of the Bible doesn't promise utopia, but he does promise that if yo follow him it will be worth it.
> For the most powerful Being in the universe to restrain his power, proves what a loving God He actually is. I don't think God is a micro manager.
> You talk like death is the end of it all. Life on the other side is just like here, only without the body of flesh and bones. One of the purposes of a body of flesh and bones is to experience pain, and suffering, and yes even death.
> I believe in God. I don't think I'll know Him anymore when I meet him than I know Him now.
> I look for God in life. Give it a try, maybe there's something to this God thing



One of the purposes of a body of flesh and bones is to experience pain, and suffering, and yes even death.

Your proof, please, that one of the purposes of a body of flesh and bones is to experience pain and suffering, and even death.  Thank you.  ~ Susan


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## ChrisL (Dec 16, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lol.  I keep asking you what is this "thing" that you (not me - LOL) is supposedly "connecting" with??  Explain please.
> ...



A thread like this?  Lol.  Do I have to remind you of the topic of the thread and the thread title again?  Goodness!!  

As to the rest of your post, none of this is evidence of anything except your feelings.


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## Tilly (Dec 16, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Lol.  I keep asking you what is this "thing" that you (not me - LOL) is supposedly "connecting" with??  Explain please.
> ...


What a beautiful and thoughtful post. Thank you for taking the time to write it and to share your experiences.


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## hobelim (Dec 16, 2015)

Boss said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...




Ahem. pull yourself together. I never said anything about banning religion or making everyone believe as I do.

I believe in the freedom of religion, but I also believe in equal treatment under the law. If it is a crime for everyone else to mentally and emotionally abuse children then the religious indoctrination of children by charlatans as can be seen in the video posted should be prosecuted as a crime tantamount to murder. Because this abuse is currently protected by law it insures that the vast majority of people exposed to this type of indoctrination are fucked in the head for life and inevitably end up in positions of influence and authority without a having a grip on reality or the ability to think rationally enough to distinguish between right and wrong, true or false, or good and evil. Many are legally and democratically elected by legions of unthinking people just like them. Why is any wonder that things are all so fucked up? Because people are spiritual beings or because they have been crippled by trauma? And what do the religious people want to do to fix things? Deport Mexicans? Criminalize pregnant women and homosexuals? Build more prisons? Damn.

If people want to throw their minds in the garbage as informed adults they should have every right to do so. Like pornography religion should be restricted learning and for the exact same reasons.

You might not realize this but by repeatedly saying that no one can be demonized unless they believe in demons you have made a complete jackass out of yourself..You are connected to something greater than yourself my ass. May I bring you some clothes, your majesty?

BTW I am not an atheist, sherlock.


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## Boss (Dec 17, 2015)

hobelim said:


> I believe in the freedom of religion, but I also believe in equal treatment under the law. If it is a crime for everyone else to mentally and emotionally abuse children then the religious indoctrination of children by charlatans as can be seen in the video posted should be prosecuted as a crime.



We have to establish some very clear and unambiguous standards for what is considered "abuse" in terms of the law. I don't see anything in the video that denotes "abuse" as it's currently defined, emotionally, physically or otherwise. You may not agree with what is happening there but it's not your children, and it's not your business. It's amazing that you don't seem to like the idea of religious people indoctrinating your kids but you think it's okay to take their kids away and indoctrinate them with your beliefs. Isn't that being a little bit of a hypocrite? 



hobelim said:


> Because this abuse is currently protected by law it insures that the vast majority of people exposed to this type of indoctrination are fucked in the head for life and inevitably end up in positions of influence and authority without a having a grip on reality or the ability to think rationally enough to distinguish between right and wrong, true or false, or good and evil.



Again, you are under some kind of damned delusion that people get religion then go out there and "usurp power" from someone. I don't get that. What are they doing, using mind control or something? 

What is "fucked in the head" and what qualifies YOU to know? Just because you see a video of people being "moved by the spirit" or whatever, that means they are mentally unstable and have no grip on reality? And then... they have the amazing capacity to go out there and just usurp all the power positions left and right and no one can do a thing about that! Amazing! Hell... you got me wanting to flop around in the floor... I mean, if I can land some powerful position where I can dictate how you live and what you do... is that all it takes? 



hobelim said:


> You might not realize this but by repeatedly saying that no one can be demonized unless they believe in demons you have made a complete jackass out of yourself..
> 
> BTW I am not an atheist, sherlock.



Oh well... if you're NOT an Atheist, I guess you CAN be demonized! If that makes you feel uncomfortable maybe you shouldn't be so demonic in your behavior? Just a thought. 



hobelim said:


> Many are legally and democratically elected by legions of unthinking people just like them.



Yeah... funny how open republican democracies work. We tend to like electing people we can relate to, who share our same values. That's really sticking in your craw, isn't it? You'd love for this to be your own personal little dictatorship so you could tell everyone how to live and what to believe in. Let's just program everyone to think and act like hobelim!  ...In less than 6 months, you'd be conducting rituals like the preacher in the video... little kids falling in the floor at your waving hand!


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## Dhara (Dec 17, 2015)

Hmm,

Is it ok to all of you that some believe in God and some do not?

Why is it anyone thinks they need to convince someone there is or isn't a God?

The OP seems to want to argue that God doesn't exist because there is suffering in the world.  Suffering is inherent in existence.

God has nothing to do with it.  My opinion, of course.


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## ChrisL (Dec 17, 2015)

Boss said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > I believe in the freedom of religion, but I also believe in equal treatment under the law. If it is a crime for everyone else to mentally and emotionally abuse children then the religious indoctrination of children by charlatans as can be seen in the video posted should be prosecuted as a crime.
> ...



I think he is saying that a whole lot of people are brainwashed since the time they are . . .well infants in some cases to "fear" God.  You don't realize how difficult and frightening it is to go against that type of brainwashing and to actually have the audacity to question "belief" systems, like religious beliefs.  IOW, a lot of people are kind of "forced" into it.  They just don't realize it.


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## emilynghiem (Dec 17, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



Dear Delta4Embassy
(1) Do you still believe in the laws of science and good health
even though there are diseases that attack and kill if we fail to maintain good health.
Isn't it natural science that if we don't solve problems they lead to bad consequences?
And with the case of car accidents, the more we improve safety compliance and the more we reduce
dangers and risks, then we see fewer and fewer accidents (such as preventing texting, drinking or sleep deprivation mixed with driving).

Cause and effect.
As long as you believe that there is a connection there,
that's the equivalent of believing in "laws of nature" at work.
So that's the secular equivalent of how "God's laws" work.
You just may call it something else and are still studying how these laws work before you decide
how much we as humans do control, what we can focus on and improve on, and what is left to forces outside our control.

If you look up laws of karma, cause and effect, restorative justice vs. retributive justice.
If you look up the laws of attraction, of abundance mentality vs. scarcity/victim mentality.
You can see the difference it makes if you believe truth and justice prevail and drive all things.
So that is what it means to believe in God and Jesus, love of Truth/Wisdom
and love of Justice and Peace for all humanity, or perfect Compassion and Charity for all.

(2) the other reason I find people don't believe in these things ^
is they don't fully forgive other groups they want to dissociate from
or they fear certain wrongs in the world they fear cannot be controlled or solved.
It is the Fear or Unforgiveness we hold onto that prevents our faith in truth and justice.

It's not a matter of  believing in a personal God, because some minds are not designed to see the world that way.

it is a matter of FORGIVING our differences and things that go wrong in the world
so that we CAN SEE we are talking about the same process as ONE humanity.

When you lose your sense of connection to other people and groups you see as "outside or against the truth" then this causes you to disconnect and lose a sense of connection as one with all humanity. So you don't feel you have the "same thing other people call God" when you lose this sense you and all others are all one in the same boat.

If you FEAR that "other group or person" is AGAINST you, this hurts your sense
of justice that we can all be pushing for the same goal.

this disjoint separation is caused by fear, unforgiveness and ill will.
This separation is overcome where love is greater than fear,
truth is greater than ignorance and fear of unknown,
forgiveness is greater than unforgiveness,
faith in good will is greater than fear of ill will,
faith in peace is greater than fear of war,
faith in justice is greater than fear of injustice.

If you are run more by fear than by love,
that is the same thing as not believing in God.
Not to worry, as many believers and Christians are still learning
to let go, forgive, receive greater faith and believe.

We humans are all skeptics and are clouded by fear.
We are all learning to let go of that fear, and  receive universal truth and love that is what God means.


----------



## Boss (Dec 17, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> I think he is saying that a whole lot of people are brainwashed since the time they are . . .well infants in some cases to "fear" God. You don't realize how difficult and frightening it is to go against that type of brainwashing and to actually have the audacity to question "belief" systems, like religious beliefs. IOW, a lot of people are kind of "forced" into it. They just don't realize it.



And I think a whole lot of people are brainwashed since childhood that God doesn't matter or doesn't really exist. It's a two-way street. But it's not my business to raise your kids and not your business to raise mine. If you want people to leave your kids alone you need to leave their kids alone. Everyone's world doesn't revolve around your opinion. 

We see the video of kids being indoctrinated by religion but where are the videos of the parents teaching their kid there's no such thing as God? If one is "child abuse" so is the other, in my opinion. Setting aside the extreme examples as depicted in the video, (because I've never personally known any kids raised that way...) I have known kids raised in strong spiritual families and kids raised in atheistic families... there is a night and day difference in the people they become. From the level of respect they have for others to the respect they have for themselves. Their trustworthiness, their dependability, their general attitude toward life... just not comparable. 

I'm not saying one is always bad and the other is always good, but generally speaking, the results speak for themselves. You think these little degenerate hellions out there shitting on the cop cars were raised in a spiritual family? Or were they probably raised by some immoral bitch who went around mocking God and making fun of religious people?


----------



## Onyx (Dec 17, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



There is a difference between believing in a god and believing in a perfect god. I believe in God, but I do not think he/it is anywhere close to perfection. That way of thinking is quite uncommon among my fellow Christian pawns, but so be it.


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## ChrisL (Dec 18, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I think he is saying that a whole lot of people are brainwashed since the time they are . . .well infants in some cases to "fear" God. You don't realize how difficult and frightening it is to go against that type of brainwashing and to actually have the audacity to question "belief" systems, like religious beliefs. IOW, a lot of people are kind of "forced" into it. They just don't realize it.
> ...



If I didn't know better, I would think the good "spiritual" man was trying to insult me.    Look friend, you keep saying how "spiritual" you are and other such things.  It doesn't seem to make you anymore "serene" though.


----------



## ChrisL (Dec 18, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I think he is saying that a whole lot of people are brainwashed since the time they are . . .well infants in some cases to "fear" God. You don't realize how difficult and frightening it is to go against that type of brainwashing and to actually have the audacity to question "belief" systems, like religious beliefs. IOW, a lot of people are kind of "forced" into it. They just don't realize it.
> ...



So basically, you think people need religion to be good people?


----------



## hobelim (Dec 18, 2015)

Boss said:


> We have to establish some very clear and unambiguous standards for what is considered "abuse" in terms of the law. I don't see anything in the video that denotes "abuse" as it's currently defined, emotionally, physically or otherwise. You may not agree with what is happening there but it's not your children, and it's not your business. It's amazing that you don't seem to like the idea of religious people indoctrinating your kids but you think it's okay to take their kids away and indoctrinate them with your beliefs. Isn't that being a little bit of a hypocrite?



Yes, that would be hypocritical but that is not what I suggested. Pornography is currently restricted for adults only because of the potential negative effects it could have on children who have not yet matured physically, emotionally or intellectually.. Religion should be restricted for the exact same reasons. What is so objectionable to you if children were required to be educated in the natural world about things that are true, tested, and verified, before their minds are defiled and contaminated with beliefs that contradict what is known to be true and cannot be verified?

Maybe children should learn about gravity before they are exposed to figurative stories with people flying through the air, biology before they are taught about the dead coming out of their graves,literary expression before they are taught hyperbolical depictions of worldwide destruction and eternal torment? Shouldn't they at least be taught that these stories are figurative and not literal ? Would you not think it was abusive to teach children that the story of the three pigs was a historical document about a time in the past when pigs and wolves could talk and build houses? Wouldn't it potentially cripple them for life if they believed? How would that not be criminal?





Boss said:


> Again, you are under some kind of damned delusion that people get religion then go out there and "usurp power" from someone. I don't get that. What are they doing, using mind control or something?



Exactly. Its what used to be called demonic possession, sorcery. Even the Bible teaches that mind control is a great evil.





Boss said:


> Oh well... if you're NOT an Atheist, I guess you CAN be demonized! If that makes you feel uncomfortable maybe you shouldn't be so demonic in your behavior? Just a thought.




There you go again. A person being demonized has nothing whatsoever about whether the person believes or doesn't believe in demons.

Are you really that dumb?




Boss said:


> Yeah... funny how open republican democracies work. We tend to like electing people we can relate to, who share our same values. That's really sticking in your craw, isn't it? You'd love for this to be your own personal little dictatorship so you could tell everyone how to live and what to believe in. Let's just program everyone to think and act like hobelim! ...In less than 6 months, you'd be conducting rituals like the preacher in the video... little kids falling in the floor at your waving hand!



I would be conducting rituals? Yeah right...

No, I just think that if people were given the responsibility to vote about real issues with grave consequences they should at least be educated sober mined and sane, not ignorant irrational and awaiting with deranged anticipation for God to fart angels out of the sky..

You might as well take a poll in an insane asylum to form a national policy about what to do about the price of tea in china.

Can anyone take their grade school children to a raucous strip club serving booze, religiously,  because thats what their parents do? Is it a gross violation of their rights that it is not legal for them to do so?

How is that any different than talking them to a raucous tent revival filled with jumping and screaming dimwits? Forcing them to chant verses from the koran about killing infidels for 12 hours a day until they go permanently crazy? Circumcising the foreskins of infants because a God that no one has seen or heard from in their entire lives wants them to do it because it says so in a 5000 year old book of children stories?


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## Boss (Dec 18, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> If I didn't know better, I would think the good "spiritual" man was trying to insult me.  Look friend, you keep saying how "spiritual" you are and other such things. It doesn't seem to make you anymore "serene" though.



Oh, you thought I was talking about YOU when I mentioned the immoral bitch? No, I was speaking hypothetically. And again, here you are trying to use my spirituality to "guilt trip" me. I've already tried to explain to you that I am not like a Christian, I don't have a Commandment to follow about being "serene" or cordial toward you. So that tactic will not ever work on me. I reciprocate respect or disrespect. How you are treated is directly related to how you treat me. 



ChrisL said:


> So basically, you think people need religion to be good people?



I didn't say that. I know religious people who are despicable and I know atheists who are admirable. Every individual on this planet is different and I _try_ to never use a broad brush to define anyone. That's why you see me preface my remarks with "I'm not saying one is always bad and one is always good." 

A lot of "religious" people are not spiritual people at all. They USE religion to maintain a facade. I think this is often what sources the angst people like you have for the religious. I also believe there are very spiritual people who aren't religious.. I am one of them. I often raise eyebrows when I say... I've known Atheists who are bigger believers in God than some Christians. I think that's true. 

All that said, set aside "religion"... people who have a strong spiritual connection are generally more trustworthy, loyal, honest, etc. That's my experience. People who ignore their spiritual connection are generally unreliable, more likely to be dishonest and untrustworthy. Again, that's my experience.


----------



## Boss (Dec 18, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > We have to establish some very clear and unambiguous standards for what is considered "abuse" in terms of the law. I don't see anything in the video that denotes "abuse" as it's currently defined, emotionally, physically or otherwise. You may not agree with what is happening there but it's not your children, and it's not your business. It's amazing that you don't seem to like the idea of religious people indoctrinating your kids but you think it's okay to take their kids away and indoctrinate them with your beliefs. Isn't that being a little bit of a hypocrite?
> ...



Again, it sounds like you want to dictate what kids are taught... in other words, you want to indoctrinate them with your disbelief in God. Furthermore, you'd be okay with locking people up for defying your indoctrination attempts. Yep, I'd give you 6 months following the criminalizing of religion before you'd be leading a cult of little kids falling in the floor at your waving hand. You're a little Fascist who wants the world to follow your view. 

*Pornography is currently restricted for adults only because of the potential negative effects it could have on children who have not yet matured physically, emotionally or intellectually.*

You do realize that is a religiously-based viewpoint and is the result of religious people who made laws based on their religious moral beliefs.... right? 

*Even the Bible teaches that mind control is a great evil.*

Oh my... is this where you want me to jerk and twitch and fall in the floor? I think you have to also wave your hand like you are sowing the spirit... keep practicing! 

*There you go again. A person being demonized has nothing whatsoever about whether the person believes or doesn't believe in demons.

Are you really that dumb?*

Maybe you should go look up what "demonize" means? You can demonize someone who doesn't believe in demons but what does that mean?  Oooo.... I'm like a demon... I'm so scared! If you don't believe in demons it's no different than someone likening you to Peter Pan. What difference does that make if you don't believe? ...Of course, you said you are not an Atheist, so you DO believe... that's different... you CAN be demonized.


----------



## hobelim (Dec 18, 2015)

Boss said:


> Oh, you thought I was talking about YOU when I mentioned the immoral bitch?




Charming.

If that is evidence of you connecting with something greater than yourself it isn't saying very much about you.


----------



## Boss (Dec 18, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, you thought I was talking about YOU when I mentioned the immoral bitch?
> ...



Ahhahaha... another Guilt Tripper?


----------



## OZman (Dec 18, 2015)

hobelim said:


> Maybe children should learn about gravity before they are exposed to figurative stories with people flying through the air, biology before they are taught about the dead coming out of their graves,literary expression before they are taught hyperbolical depictions of worldwide destruction and eternal torment? Shouldn't they at least be taught that these stories are figurative and not literal ? Would you not think it was abusive to teach children that the story of the three pigs was a historical document about a time in the past when pigs and wolves could talk and build houses? Wouldn't it potentially cripple them for life if they believed? How would that not be criminal?



I agree, it is child abuse.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 18, 2015)

Onyx said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> ...


.


> *Onyx:* I believe in God, but I do not think he/it is anywhere close to perfection. That way of thinking is quite uncommon among my fellow Christian pawns, but so be it.



I would suggest your belief is "quite uncommon" to all recognized religions on Earth with few if any exceptions - and begs the question, what then is Perfection ....

.


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## Edward_Palamar (Dec 20, 2015)

You don't believe in God because you're an egotistical snob.


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## sealybobo (Dec 22, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


----------



## ChrisL (Dec 22, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Cute!


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## vasuderatorrent (Dec 22, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> none of this is evidence of anything except your feelings.



There is a story like that in the Bible.


----------



## BreezeWood (Dec 22, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


.
_*bos: things have to make sense and follow logic. That's why I can't comprehend physical nature being able to create itself... it doesn't make sense. Some other force had to create the physical or it can't exist.*_





. . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





if that were true was the Creator also responsible for the environment it was created in or once self created was able to multiply their discovery ...

and likewise, no one is really discussing non-physical physical nature. notice the difference.

.


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## Boss (Dec 22, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> if that were true was the Creator also responsible for the environment it was created in or once self created was able to multiply their discovery ...



I don't understand the question. An "environment" is physical. Everything we can see, hear, feel, smell or taste, is physical. Atoms, molecules and particles are physical. Matter and energy are physical. When the word "create" or "created" is used, it generally means in a physical sense... I have no idea how to "create" something that isn't physical or how to determine if it exists. Existence means to exist in a state of physical reality. 

I understand the Laws of Thermodynamics... it does not conform to logic that physical matter and energy has always existed. It had to have a point of beginning somewhere. Since the physical cannot create itself, that only leaves one possibility of what created it.


----------



## BreezeWood (Dec 22, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > if that were true was the Creator also responsible for the environment it was created in or once self created was able to multiply their discovery ...
> ...


.
*if that were true was the Creator also responsible for the environment it was created in ...*


*



*


why was this "created" non-physical along with most of all other observed celestial bodies while Garden Earth physical nature is unique enough as to have no other parallel yet observed or even remotely equivalent throughout the entire universe - obviously bossy's greater than self god has a limited mentality.

as in if physical nature (Garden Earth) were created, why were the other planets in our solar system not set in orbit inside the same hospitable zone as Earth capable of vast variances of life than complete desolation.


*bos: Existence means to exist in a state of physical reality.*

no, life begins from nothing - they are interchangeable.


*b: Since the physical cannot create itself*

what are you referring to as physical, does that include physiology as being the same as a boulder ?

.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> as in if physical nature (Garden Earth) were created, why were the other planets in our solar system not set in orbit inside the same hospitable zone as Earth capable of vast variances of life than complete desolation.



Probably because if all the planets in our solar system existed in the same zone they would collide with one another and we'd all die? It's a really silly question... why didn't God just make us to where we could exist in 2k degree heat or -2k degree cold? Why didn't God make us where we could breathe helium or hydrogen instead of air? Why not just give every planet it's own Sun, Moon, iron-nickel core, atmosphere, liquid water, air pressure, seasons and tides?  

Why didn't God just make us all to where we have no choice but to believe in Him? Like breathing or eating, it could have been something we had no choice about. Maybe it is because God doesn't have the same intentions as you would have if you were God? Maybe it's because of things you've yet to understand because you're a human? How do you know that spiritual entities who are not physical don't exist in those places in another dimension we can't perceive?


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> no, life begins from nothing - they are interchangeable.



Life does NOT begin from nothing. Biogenesis.... Life comes from life. 



BreezeWood said:


> *b: Since the physical cannot create itself*
> 
> what are you referring to as physical, does that include physiology as being the same as a boulder ?



Physical is clearly defined in every dictionary on the planet. Go look up the definition if you're confused about what it means. Yes, boulders are physical. Any more stupid questions?


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## ChrisL (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > as in if physical nature (Garden Earth) were created, why were the other planets in our solar system not set in orbit inside the same hospitable zone as Earth capable of vast variances of life than complete desolation.
> ...



Yes, there are gods up there in the sky making the planets move.  Ala Kazam!


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

ChrisL said:


> Yes, there are gods up there in the sky making the planets move.



Well Chris, according to Ike Newton, something is making things move. Our planet is moving 25k miles per hour, although, from outer space the movement is almost imperceptible. Yet... if not for this precise movement that hasn't changed in hundreds of thousands of years, we wouldn't have seasons, we wouldn't have average temperatures we could live in, there couldn't be any plants or sea life, we wouldn't have any climate, there wouldn't be any ocean convection, most of our water would be frozen.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > as in if physical nature (Garden Earth) were created, why were the other planets in our solar system not set in orbit inside the same hospitable zone as Earth capable of vast variances of life than complete desolation.
> ...


.
_*b: Probably because if all the planets in our solar system existed in the same zone they would collide with one another and we'd all die?*_








of course you have the special knowledge why Earth and our moon "would collide with one another and we'd all die" reason for their exclusion - why there are 8 other planets in our solar system deliberately by your belief for a cognoscente reason, its simply a mathematical coincidence ...

_*
Life does NOT begin from nothing*_

no, you're a clone but others identity begins at inception, Spiritually, sink or swim.


_*
Physical is clearly defined in every dictionary on the planet - Yes, boulders are physical ...*_




.







> ... does that include physiology as being the same as a boulder ?



your meditation clearly defines your comfort zone, bound by your own cranium.

.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> of course you have the special knowledge why Earth and our moon "would collide with one another and we'd all die" reason for their exclusion



Well, because one is a planet and one is a satellite revolving around that planet. Dummy.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> no, you're a clone but others identity begins at inception, Spiritually, sink or swim.



I have no idea what that even means... But... Life comes from life... Biogenesis. Louis Pasteur.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > of course you have the special knowledge why Earth and our moon "would collide with one another and we'd all die" reason for their exclusion
> ...


.
_*Well, because one is a planet and one is a satellite revolving around that planet. Dummy.*_

then just refer to the other eight planets placed in the hospitable zone as satellites and everything will be just fine - idiot ...

_*

But... Life comes from life... Biogenesis. Louis Pasteur.*_

it was your mother who gave you life ? - she gets around, there are a few other people on Earth and I for one have never met her .... where did your life come from, Idiot II

.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> then just refer to the other eight planets placed in the hospitable zone as satellites and everything will be just fine - idiot ...


No... because their MASS would have created a gravitational problem and they would have collided together. The moon is considerably smaller than any planet. 

It is an impossibility of physics for more than two planets to be in the same habitable zone revolving around it's sun. Two are only possible if the offset is geosynchronous. Now, I can't explain why God made physics behave as it does in our universe... perhaps he was still learning and in later universes he was able to achieve a more perfect nature? 



BreezeWood said:


> it was your mother who gave you life ? - she gets around, there are a few other people on Earth and I for one have never met her .... where did your life come from, Idiot II



Well... MY life came from a living human egg cell and a living human sperm cell. Has no one ever explained reproduction to you? Life comes from other life. During the time of Darwin, people believed life could spontaneously generate from inorganic material... We discovered it can't. Louis Pasteur established the Law of Biogenesis. Life comes from life.


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## Hollie (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > then just refer to the other eight planets placed in the hospitable zone as satellites and everything will be just fine - idiot ...
> ...


You need to consult with your pals at the Watchtower bible thumping meeting to review their silly "biogenesis" claims.

*CB000:  Law of Biogenesis*

*Claim CB000:*
Pasteur and other scientists disproved the concept of spontaneous generation and established the "law of biogenesis" -- that life comes only from previous life.
*Source:*
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985. _Life--How Did It Get Here?_ Brooklyn, NY, p. 38.
*Response:*

The spontaneous generation that Pasteur and others disproved was the idea that life forms such as mice, maggots, and bacteria can appear fully formed. They disproved a form of creationism. There is no law of biogenesis saying that very primitive life cannot form from increasingly complex molecules.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, there are gods up there in the sky making the planets move.
> ...


"The gawds did it".

All your fears and superstitions are addressed.


----------



## BreezeWood (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > then just refer to the other eight planets placed in the hospitable zone as satellites and everything will be just fine - idiot ...
> ...


.
_*It is an impossibility of physics for more than two planets to be in the same habitable zone revolving around it's sun.*_

link ... the point being made is why do the other eight then even exist if the creation were not dictated by mathematics over purposeful design. and two planets at polar opposites w/ opposing gravitational fields, opposite spins to insure separation does seem possible in the habitable zone if purposefully designed as well as multiple suns.


_*MY life came from a living human egg cell and a living human sperm cell ...*_

that is physical. the question was where did life come from - being the point of discussion - not from your parents, life began from nowhere, The Everlasting.

.


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...


Good point. No life form ever started as adults. Every living thing was a baby before it was an adult. So all life form must have originated from something that didn't need parents to survive.

Christians and others who deny evolution are suggesting God not only plopped down adult Adam and Eve but also hippo croc God mouse fish frog snake adults too who then populated the planet.

So Adam and Eve were never kids?


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...



Dear, if you want to believe in spontaneous generation, you are free to do do. I assure you, most biologists would say you're living in the dark ages. There is NO evidence life ever formed from increasingly complex molecules. It is a theory that is not supported by ANY science.


----------



## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


They don't know. Life could have started here on earth or came in from a comet. But It started as something like a mold and eventually formed into multi cell organisms and we branched off into the diverse life we see today.

If not, what is your theory? Did a God plop down horses and dinosaurs and turkey etc all fully formed and paired up? What reasons and evidence do you have?


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

All life comes from inside stars. A star died so that we could live. Amen.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...



I'm still not understanding the point of your post. I can't answer why God made the universe as we find it. Perhaps because God is not a human with humanistic characteristics... like concern for future morons who might wonder why? 

As for your "life began from nowhere" argument, it is an irrational and illogical statement. Nothing can "begin" from a non-existent point. If a car arrives in your driveway, it did not come from nowhere. It came from somewhere. It's impossible that it came from nowhere because that defies logic. It can seem it came from nowhere, you can convince yourself it came from nowhere... but it came from somewhere because it can't come from a non-existing point. 

Also, I have to point out that you contradict your own illogical argument. You say "nowhere" followed by a comma and then "The Everlasting" which is not "nowhere." I don't know what "The Everlasting" is... it sounds a lot like God. I often call it "Spiritual Nature" and others have their own words. In any event, it is a source... a somewhere... not nowhere.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


.
whatever is everlasting as you propose for your "greater than self" god may be many proposals but is certainly not a where. where is finite.

unless you are Spiritless that came from someplace other than your parents physiology and where in this case a freed Spirit may return. at least one possible explanation for life after death and the place one originated from.
.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> They don't know. Life could have started here on earth or came in from a comet. But It started as something like a mold and eventually formed into multi cell organisms and we branched off into the diverse life we see today.
> 
> If not, what is your theory? Did a God plop down horses and dinosaurs and turkey etc all fully formed and paired up? What reasons and evidence do you have?



But this is ALL speculative. There is NO science to support it. We can't make it happen in a lab and the more we attempt to do so, the more we discover that it's not possible. I understand that people have THOUGHT this for years... many years... that doesn't make it truth. 

My theory is, that Spiritual Nature (or whatever it is) which also created physical nature, created numerous forms of different types of life at the same time. I say the same time because I see an interdependence between various life forms that can't logically be explained otherwise.  Perhaps NOT fully formed or paired up, because I see evidence of some evolution within genus taxa.  What I don't see in science or biology is evidence that evolution happens across genus taxa. Horses don't become giraffes because they needed to reach food higher in the tree. Horses may develop longer legs because they need to be faster but they remained horses. 

The more we study DNA and mitochondria in particular, the more we see that this long-held idea that all life emerged from some ubiquitous single cell is just not realistic.


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > They don't know. Life could have started here on earth or came in from a comet. But It started as something like a mold and eventually formed into multi cell organisms and we branched off into the diverse life we see today.
> ...


If you look at the DNA of a tree or frog or human or fish you see we are all related


You want to re create it? What are you doing the next million years. Just watch.


----------



## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...



Well, I believe we have a spiritual self and a physical self. Our spirit is everlasting, it doesn't conform to space and time of physical nature. Our physiology is (by definition) physical, it has a begin point and end point.


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

So boss believes a spiritual being put down two giraffe fully grown and they had the first baby giraffe. The first giraffe was never a baby? Who was their mother?


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> If you look at the DNA of a tree or frog or human or fish you see we are all related
> 
> You want to re create it? What are you doing the next million years. Just watch.



Nonsense, I see that we are *NOT* related. You are making the simple-minded assumption that because DNA is similar, it must mean relationship.  95% of our DNA is the same as a chimp... but that 5% is significant. 50% of our DNA is the same as a banana, we're obviously not half bananas... (although, *you* might be a strong argument to contradict that.) Furthermore, your DNA is 99.99999999999% the same as the DNA of Jeffrey Dahmer. 

If you take ANY computer software... go into the code... remove 4~5% of it and replace it with code from some other program... will the software still function as it did before? Would it be improved? Or would you destroy the software's capability entirely?


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > If you look at the DNA of a tree or frog or human or fish you see we are all related
> ...


Yes you are even related to a banana. All life started in one place. Your explanation is not plausible. Explain it again? How did the first zebras start? You say God plopped down a herd of full grown zebra? An entire flock of seaguls? Adult humans? You're saying God made the chicken before the egg? I'm saying the chicken wasn't always a chicken and humans weren't always humans. At least not the same as they were 1 million years ago or 1 million years from now we won't be the same creatures. 

Go back far enough your relatives were fish.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> So boss believes a spiritual being put down two giraffe fully grown and they had the first baby giraffe. The first giraffe was never a baby? Who was their mother?



I don't know what you mean by "spiritual being" ...sounds spooky to me. A being is something in the physical state of being... that's what the word means. Spiritual Nature is not physical, it can't be a "being" and doesn't have attributes associated with physical beings. 

And no, I did not say that anything "put down" two fully grown anything... that's another wild imaginative misunderstanding you're having, probably based on what some religious folk have said. I'm not a religious person, I don't believe a human-like God patiently created all living things in pairs... etc. etc.  I guess that COULD be the way it happened, but that's not MY belief.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



You can be related to a banana, I am not. 

I don't believe anything "plopped down fully grown" anything. That is simply YOU attempting to mock my beliefs because you have no evidence to support your own. I could be equally as insulting... you believe a banana just up and one day decided to be all that it could be and *poof* out popped a human from the banana tree! Little fishes swam around in the ocean for years until one day, a defiant little liberal fish said... fuck this noise, I'm leaving the ocean! Who's with me? ...And the whale says... I always dreamed of being a dog... I'll go!  

The problem is, what you believe is a FANTASY.  There is no basis for it in Science.. period!


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > So boss believes a spiritual being put down two giraffe fully grown and they had the first baby giraffe. The first giraffe was never a baby? Who was their mother?
> ...


So what's your theory and don't ramble be vague or change the subject. Think it out. How did it all start? How do you think tiger alligators dogs fish all started? They all had to have either started out as adults or they all evolved from things that didn't need parenting. 

Explain how you think lions got started. It has to be evolution.


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
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> > Boss said:
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Explain how you think it happened.

You're mocking my belief but I just explained evolution to you. You can't explain your theory. If men didn't come from fish, where did we come from.

I'm putting words in your mouth because this is what I'm hearing you say. If I'm wrong explain what you believe


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> So what's your theory and don't ramble be vague or change the subject. Think it out. How did it all start? How do you think tiger alligators dogs fish all started? They all had to have either started out as adults or they all evolved from things that didn't need parenting.
> 
> Explain how you think lions got started. It has to be evolution.



My theory is clear. Spiritual Nature, not confined to space and time, literally has all the time it needs to create whatever is needed to establish a interdependent system of living physical things. If I could explain exactly how Spiritual Nature did this, I would probably be up for the Nobel Prize... don't you imagine?


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Explain how you think it happened.
> 
> You're mocking my belief but I just explained evolution to you. You can't explain your theory. If men didn't come from fish, where did we come from.
> 
> I'm putting words in your mouth because this is what I'm hearing you say. If I'm wrong explain what you believe



No, I was mocking you the same way you were mocking me. I never said anything you claim you heard me say. I've tried to explain what I believe but you want to distort that and mock me. I've also said that I don't have all the answers and can't give you what I don't know.


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## sealybobo (Dec 23, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > So what's your theory and don't ramble be vague or change the subject. Think it out. How did it all start? How do you think tiger alligators dogs fish all started? They all had to have either started out as adults or they all evolved from things that didn't need parenting.
> ...


Now that's a fantasy, not a scientific theory. Ill go with what science believes because its based on science facts logic and reason. It makes sense. Bossolicism does not. Not to me. 

But I'm sure Christians will agree with you.

How do you think the first humans started? As babies or adults? We must have evolved from something that didn't need parents. That doesn't sound human to me.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Now that's a fantasy, not a scientific theory. Ill go with what science believes because its based on science facts logic and reason. It makes sense. Bossolicism does not. Not to me.
> 
> But I'm sure Christians will agree with you.
> 
> How do you think the first humans started? As babies or adults? We must have evolved from something that didn't need parents. That doesn't sound human to me.



Well... BELIEF is FAITH and SCIENCE does not BELIEVE things. It can only evaluate things, test things, observe things and make predictions of probabilities. IF you had ANY science to support your nonsensical theory, you would be parading it around for everyone to see. 

I believe "humans" started when the timeless Spiritual Nature bestowed spiritual awareness on homo erectus and they became homo sapiens.


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## Boss (Dec 23, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> We must have evolved from something that didn't need parents.



That sounds an awful lot like YOUR explanation.


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## sealybobo (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Now that's a fantasy, not a scientific theory. Ill go with what science believes because its based on science facts logic and reason. It makes sense. Bossolicism does not. Not to me.
> ...


How did they start as homo erectus? Was there first adult homos or did they start out as babies?

I'm trying to show you your theory doesn't make sense. 

You see there wasn't a "first" homo erectus either. They evolved from something else too. Go back far enough and our first ancestors must not have needed parents. Because all homos need parents.

Same with chicken and eggs. There wasn't a first chicken or egg. That animal evolved from something else too. Originally it didn't take parents or an egg to make that creature either. If I'm wrong, who laid the first egg?

Maybe you just can't understand. I know its amazing. More amazing than your fairytale of how it all started.


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## sealybobo (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > We must have evolved from something that didn't need parents.
> ...


So the first dogs were adult dogs? They were just poofed into existence by a God? That's your theory?


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## Hollie (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
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> 
> > Boss said:
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Well dear, I'm glad you have decided to abandon your silly "biogenesis" slogan. At your next Watchtower bible tract meeting, pass on what you have learned.

I'm sure you don't speak for "most biologists" so I think we can take your limited exposure to science as evidence of..... limited exposure to science, 

One of the science principles you mighht want to familiarize yourself with are principles such as genetic drift.


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## Boss (Dec 24, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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Again, you keep asking me questions that, if I could answer them, I would win a Nobel Prize and be the most famous man to ever live. I don't know what happened or how it happened... and you don't either, that is my main point. Your theory makes no more rational sense than mine. 

There has to be a "first" something if that thing exists. It's not like two different types of ape had a baby together and named him homo erectus. If he came from ape DNA he was an ape baby. And ape babies is all he could ever produce because all he could breed with was other apes. Again.... there is NO EVIDENCE of ANY cross-genus evolution. Nowhere, at no time. Yet we have millions of genus taxa and 95% of the ones that did exist have gone extinct. 

The fossil record is even more mysterious because we find no evidence of this transformation happening between various genera. Species appear suddenly in the fossil record, as if they had already evolved. We don't have fossils of plants turning into reptiles... we don't have fossils of reptiles turning into mammals... IF this theory of your were valid, we should see millions and millions of these examples abundant in the fossil record and we don't. 

If single-cell organisms could reproduce multi-cellular life, we would be able to demonstrate this in a lab environment. As of now, that test eludes us. We simply cannot make it happen. When we break down DNA and study it's mitochondrial components, enzymes and amino acids, we see why our experiments are in vain. Life simply refuses to conform to our preconceptions.


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## Mudda (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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Bossy showing us how ignorant he is again. Dude, you have no clue about anything you discuss, so my question is: is it hard for thou to stay alive day to day?


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## sealybobo (Dec 24, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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If he denies evolution then his theory is that God went poof and put fully functioning zebra and bison and wolves on earth ready to go.

This is why evolution makes sense because bosses answer "I don't know it must have been a God that did it" is no answer at all.

The first life on earth didn't need parents so we must have evolved from creatures that didn't need parents.

Either that or bosses God put human adults on earth ready to fuck.


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## Hollie (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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"The gawds did it". All your questions are answered. 

Otherwise, in the relevant world:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent


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## sealybobo (Dec 24, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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Boss is smarter than you and those scientists.

Those scientists are dealing in fantasy but bosses hunches are sound!


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## BreezeWood (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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> > Boss said:
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.
_*bossy: If single-cell organisms could reproduce multi-cellular life, we would be able to demonstrate this in a lab environment.*_


ALL REPRODUCTION OCCURES WITHIN THE SAME MEMBRANE ...







we've demonstrated this to you before - there is only one cell that *subdivides within itself *that generates all living beings on Earth, there are no examples of an exteriorly combined multicellular being in existence.

the example above demonstrates how singe cells evolved to divide themselves inside and maintaining the initial membrane to create multicelled "individuals".

.


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## Boss (Dec 24, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > sealybobo said:
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That is an example of multi-cellular reproduction. We've gone over all this before.


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## Boss (Dec 24, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> If he denies evolution then his theory is that God went poof and put fully functioning zebra and bison and wolves on earth ready to go.
> 
> This is why evolution makes sense because bosses answer "I don't know it must have been a God that did it" is no answer at all.
> 
> ...



Well... Evolution simply is not an explanation for origin. Even if you can explain origin of life, evolution taking care of everything else is just as unbelievable and unsupportable as my theory. Listen to what you are claiming... the first life didn't need parents but it somehow produced something that from then on needed parents? How the fuck do you explain that happening? Isn't that just as much of a miracle? 

How do you reconcile all the diversity of life emerging from the same single cell when we cannot make that happen even once no matter how hard we've tried and DNA won't allow it? That's much more of a fantastic story if it's true than anything I have suggested. And... whenever all this shit was evolving into being from that one lone cell... how did it manage to create the interdependent and symbiotic relationships at the same time? All the species that couldn't exist if not for another species... how did they both come to be evolved at the same time? 

AND... EVEN IF... 100% of what you believe is true... Does it not strike you as a pretty amazing thing to have happened as the result of sheer random chance and fluke? All the millions and millions of examples of exquisite, majestic and beautiful living things... all just *poofed* into existence from the cosmic voids of space dust? Your fantasy is certainly no more believable than mine. At least my explanation contains a plausible source.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
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.
and you conveniently disregard the same evidence that is contrary to your inaccurate opinion that multicelled organism are not derived from a single cell as a simple transition from a single to multicelled organism. 

.


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## Boss (Dec 24, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> .and you conveniently disregard the same evidence that is contrary to your inaccurate opinion that multicelled organism are not derived from a single cell as a simple transition from a single to multicelled organism..



You've shown no such evidence because it doesn't exist. A human spermatozoon is a male reproductive gamete not a single-cell organism. It meets none of the criteria of an organism. Same for the female egg gamete. These are reproductive gametes produced by multi-cellular life specifically for reproduction of other multi-cellular life. They cannot survive on their own, they can't carry on the process of life, respirate or reproduce. You're trying to force a square peg into a round hole and MAKE them into single-cell organisms evolving... that's just not scientific.


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## Mudda (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > If he denies evolution then his theory is that God went poof and put fully functioning zebra and bison and wolves on earth ready to go.
> ...


At least you can grasp the scope of your stupidity. Bravo.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 24, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > .and you conveniently disregard the same evidence that is contrary to your inaccurate opinion that multicelled organism are not derived from a single cell as a simple transition from a single to multicelled organism..
> ...


.



> *boss:* If single-cell organisms could reproduce multi-cellular life, we would be able to demonstrate this in a lab environment. As of now, that test eludes us. We simply cannot make it happen.



_*
If single-cell organisms could reproduce multi-cellular life ...*_








you are misconstruing what a multicellular life represents to make a fallacious claim. the chart demonstrates exactly how it is accomplished. *all organisms are generated from a single cell.* your statement above "If single-cell organisms could reproduce multi-cellular life" is demonstated in the above graph.

essentially, humans are a single multifaceted  cell.

.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> you are misconstruing what a multicellular life represents to make a fallacious claim.



No.. that's what you are doing with single-cellular life. The male sperm is not single cell life. Not in context of an organism, which is what we're talking about. It is living organic material. A reproductive gamete.... not a living organism... single or multi-cell. You're fallaciously trying to claim it is.. and this is your evidence for single to multi cell life.  You're an idiot.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > If he denies evolution then his theory is that God went poof and put fully functioning zebra and bison and wolves on earth ready to go.
> ...


Yes the truth is better than fiction.

I could show you but I don't have a million years. Have you seen how ancient man is different than us? Do you understand how a polar bear was once a brown bear?

You need to buy the 2 Cosmos series. They explain a lot.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > you are misconstruing what a multicellular life represents to make a fallacious claim.
> ...


A smart person would admit not knowing instead of saying God must have done it.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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> > BreezeWood said:
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No... God *certainly* did it. A smart person would admit that and ask* how* God did it.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > sealybobo said:
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You couldn't show me in 15 billion years because you have no evidence. I have seen evidence of microevolution, I haven't seen evidence of macroevolution and again, you can't show me because it doesn't exist. 

I don't need to watch the Nutty Professor, Neil Degrasse Atheist spew his atheism all over me disguised as science. If you need that kind of reinforcement for your disbelief, I fully understand.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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> > Boss said:
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If you won't watch 2 full documentaries that basically educate people who think like you (all of us) then you just choose to remain ignorant. Seriously boss. You're asking us to explain it to you and all we have to tell you is watch the cosmos. If you think those two brilliant documentaries are wrong, why do we bother repeating all the points made in those documentaries?

And why do you talk to us boss? Your last comment reveals how you feel about us. You may as well been talking about me when you said that about Sagan and Tyson. 

We feel the same about you bro. You're close minded ignorant and stubborn. Won't even watch two amazing docs but you want us to convince you? Lol


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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Is that what were doing? Spewing our atheism on you and disguising it as science?

I think Sagan and Tyson went to great length to avoid completely calling out Christianity specifically. Just all religions.

Knowing how intelligent and into this subject you are, I absolutely recommend you watch both cosmos. I know you will LOVE them even if you disagree. Take notes. Watch them both twice.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss actually agrees with the cosmos. They admit we don't know everything and that organized religions are made up.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Most atheists would admit we don't know if there is a creator. We just don't buy any organized religions.

The most rational position would be to be an agnostic atheist.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Idiot, I've watched Cosmos. I have a degree in a field of science and science has always been my strongest subject. I've watched many science documentaries and have probably watched the ones in question. None of them have ever shown evidence of cross-genus evolution. All you have are wild speculations and conjecture.  

The reason is simple. Seculars approach everything from the view that "God *didn't* do it!" Therefore, it _*must be*_ that we evolved from a simpler life form which evolved from a simpler life form, ultimately evolving from the same single living cell. Because that negates God... that explains things without having to acknowledge God. But the more you go back in simplicity, the more ridiculous your argument gets and the more impossible it becomes to support with known science. 

I stress again, you have absolutely no evidence of any cross-genus evolution ever happening at any time, anywhere. You can't produce this result in a controlled lab environment with all the technology available to modern man... but somehow, some way... this was supposed to have magically happened naturally at some point. .....And we're still only talking about the evolution of _already-existing_ living things. The *origin* of life is still unaddressed.


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Idiot, I've watched Cosmos. I have a degree in a field of science and science has always been my strongest subject. I've watched many science documentaries and have probably watched the ones in question. None of them have ever shown evidence of cross-genus evolution. All you have are wild speculations and conjecture.
> 
> The reason is simple. Seculars approach everything from the view that "God *didn't* do it!" Therefore, it _*must be*_ that we evolved from a simpler life form which evolved from a simpler life form, ultimately evolving from the same single living cell. Because that negates God... that explains things without having to acknowledge God. But the more you go back in simplicity, the more ridiculous your argument gets and the more impossible it becomes to support with known science.
> 
> I stress again, you have absolutely no evidence of any cross-genus evolution ever happening at any time, anywhere. You can't produce this result in a controlled lab environment with all the technology available to modern man... but somehow, some way... this was supposed to have magically happened naturally at some point. .....And we're still only talking about the evolution of _already-existing_ living things. The *origin* of life is still unaddressed.


Which gawds does science and those Evilutionists negate?


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> Most atheists would admit we don't know if there is a creator. We just don't buy any organized religions.
> 
> The most rational position would be to be an agnostic atheist.



There is no such thing as an "agnostic atheist" dimwit. We've been through this but you remain stubbornly attached to your oxymoronic label of which you seem quite proud of. You are either an atheist or an agnostic. Pick one and stick with it.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > you are misconstruing what a multicellular life represents to make a fallacious claim.
> ...


.


Boss said:


> which is what we're talking about.




what we are talking about is your claim there is no evidence of a single celled organism becoming multicellular - the reproductive process of multisuddivided singlecelled organisms is the process over the melinia of how it was accomplished, it is as simple as that bossy ...

all organisms are single celled - one cell or one cell subdivided into many functional assemblies by unification of two nuclei.

.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Idiot, I've watched Cosmos. I have a degree in a field of science and science has always been my strongest subject. I've watched many science documentaries and have probably watched the ones in question. None of them have ever shown evidence of cross-genus evolution. All you have are wild speculations and conjecture.
> 
> The reason is simple. Seculars approach everything from the view that "God *didn't* do it!" Therefore, it _*must be*_ that we evolved from a simpler life form which evolved from a simpler life form, ultimately evolving from the same single living cell. Because that negates God... that explains things without having to acknowledge God. But the more you go back in simplicity, the more ridiculous your argument gets and the more impossible it becomes to support with known science.
> 
> I stress again, you have absolutely no evidence of any cross-genus evolution ever happening at any time, anywhere. You can't produce this result in a controlled lab environment with all the technology available to modern man... but somehow, some way... this was supposed to have magically happened naturally at some point. .....And we're still only talking about the evolution of _already-existing_ living things. The *origin* of life is still unaddressed.


All science is saying is most likely we all came from the first life and most likely it was one source. And if it started as bacteria or single cell and evolved into fish then crawled out of the ocean and eventually branched off into the diverse life we see now.

If a giraffe didn't come from an animal that once lived under water, please explain what came first 2 adult giraffe? How did they get here? Dont you see your theory is silly?


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Idiot, I've watched Cosmos. I have a degree in a field of science and science has always been my strongest subject. I've watched many science documentaries and have probably watched the ones in question. None of them have ever shown evidence of cross-genus evolution. All you have are wild speculations and conjecture.
> ...



Any and all of them. 

And let's be clear... Evolution happens on a micro level. There is no question of this and science can support it. The theory of MACRO evolution is without basis in science. It is a pure conjecture pulled from the ass of seculars and conflated with actual science in order to push an anti-God agenda. There is no evidence for it, no science experiment which proves it, no test that has been done to confirm it... nothing. That is why you never present anything and your tactic is always to attack and denigrate.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Most atheists would admit we don't know if there is a creator. We just don't buy any organized religions.
> ...


I would have to be a God to know for sure. Since I'm not I can't say I know there isn't a creator, I just don't believe there is. 

I never said I know there isn't a God. I say why I don't believe there is one. Religious people claim to know.

So no such thing as a theist because you can't know there is a God, only believe.


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
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So if frog life and dinosaur and paramores and tigers and zebra and snake and monkey (us) and all the other species evolved independently, so what? Science believes we all came from the same source. Science has considered your hypothesis and deemed it flawed.


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
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That was quite the usual flaming that fails to address the salient point.

There are many conceptions of gawds, most of those conceptions tend to dismiss the conceptions of earlier gawds or conceptions of competing versions of gawds. What can you offer to demonstrate that it was your partisan versions of gawds that had a hand in magically *poofing* life into existence?


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
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What is your theory on how all the different animals got here? Is there any science to go with your God planted a million different seeds.

Do you believe a chicken started out as a chicken? Chicken or egg?


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## sealybobo (Dec 25, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
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And what is his theory on how multi cell orgs got here if not from single cells?


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
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No. In biology there are organisms defined as single-cell and multi-cellular. Humans are multi-cellular organisms. Their reproductive gametes are not single-cell organisms. Showing how multi-cellular life reproduces other multi-cellular life is not evidence of single-to-multi-cellular evolution. You must begin with a single-cell organism. You cannot use a multi-cellular organism (which did not exist) to explain how a single-cell organism evolved into a multi-cellular organism. 

It's like you are trying to explain how Columbus discovered America by using Google Maps!


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
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Why do you think your partisan versions of gawds would want to play such a cruel joke on those Evilutionists by magically *poofing* single and multicellular life?


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> What is your theory on how all the different animals got here? Is there any science to go with your God planted a million different seeds.
> 
> Do you believe a chicken started out as a chicken? Chicken or egg?



Well, obviously SOMETHING planted a million different seeds because millions of forms of life exist. So God did it... the Cosmos did it... SOMETHING did it... because it exists. Science shows us that it did not happen the way you claim... everything emerging from a single cell.  But even IF that were true... pretty damn amazing feat to produce such a wide variety of interdependent and symbiotic life in every intricate, versatile and conceivable form. 

Chicken or egg? My daughter, when she was 7 years old, proclaimed she had solved this problem... It was obviously the Chicken!  Because, what else could have sat on the egg to hatch it? I make the philosophical argument that it was the Egg.  We have evidence of dinosaur eggs which predate the chicken by millions of years.... so the egg came first. 

What's really bizarre is YOUR theory... I suppose a banana tree got bored making bananas and just produced a random egg one day for shits and giggles and out popped a chicken! Then... it must have done it again because the chicken was lonely??? 

The problem remains, there is NO SCIENCE to support your theory.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Hollie said:


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Probably just to fuck with you?


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
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> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


What evidence do you have that indicates your gawds, as opposed to various other gawds, were the primary *poofers*?


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> And what is his theory on how multi cell orgs got here if not from single cells?



I think I have been clear from the start what my beliefs are. I think a Spiritual Force unbeknownst to us, acted upon forces of nature to enable a variety of life forms to emerge. I don't know how, I don't think we'll ever be able to explain how. I do believe that life had to emerge in harmony and unison together because it only works together... the Circle of Life... 

Let's examine closely what we are talking about when we talk about a living organism.  An "organism" is a system of design. It has functional parts that work together to convert matter to energy and respirate. Now, what in nature or physics *necessitates* it's coming into existence? Why does any life _*have*_ to exist in our universe? The simple answer is, it doesn't. So why does it exist?

You cannot answer that question and neither can I. You wish to speculate that it happened "just because" and you really have no other explanation. I think something more profound happened. Simply because it defies our understanding of logic or physics that things "just happen" without any rational reason or purpose. Science tells us that everything happens for a reason and there IS an answer to this question, we just don't know what it is at this time... we may never know.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Hollie said:


> What evidence do you have that indicates your gawds, as opposed to various other gawds, were the primary *poofers*?



I have none.


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > What evidence do you have that indicates your gawds, as opposed to various other gawds, were the primary *poofers*?
> ...


Didn't think so.

What evidence do you have that indicates your gawds or any of the other gawds were required to magically *poof* life into existence?


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Because SOMETHING *poofed* it into existence. What was YOUR explanation again???


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > And what is his theory on how multi cell orgs got here if not from single cells?
> ...


There is no "system of design" in organic life. You're relying on slogans from the Christian creationists that have no relevance in science.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Hollie said:


> There is no "system of design" in organic life. You're relying on slogans from the Christian creationists that have no relevance in science.



The very word "*oragan*ism" tells you that you're wrong. Organized, organization, a system of order. Every organism is a system of parts working together in organization, in a system of order. Random chance cannot predictably produce system of order.


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > There is no "system of design" in organic life. You're relying on slogans from the Christian creationists that have no relevance in science.
> ...


That's so silly. The very word *"organ"* tells you that you're wrong.

*Organ*. a large musical instrument having rows of tuned pipes sounded by compressed air, and played using one or more keyboards to produce a wide range of musical effects. The pipes are generally arranged in ranks of a particular type, each controlled by a stop, and often into larger sets linked to separate keyboards.

If you're done being pointless, we'll move on.

In connection with your "random chance" comment, you make mistake common among those unfamiliar with evolutionary processes and those pressing an agenda derived from Christian creation ministries.. Genetic variation might be random, but the natural selection that acts on that variation is not. Adaptation is non-random, as it is the result of objective criteria for fitness. Furthermore the harshness of Natural Selection -- all the mass extinctions, competition for survival, all of that contradicts the notion of a "system of order". Mass extinctions have little to do with natural selection. Natural selection can not act in the context of a catastrophic event like an asteroid impact. Survival through these events is based on luck, not adaptation.

Nature routinely finds suboptimal solutions that an intelligent designer would never choose. Nature is constrained by contingent history, intelligent design is not. The consequences of the difference are obvious and compelling.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Well.. the word we are discussing is organism and I highlighted the root of the word which is "organ" and presented organize and organization as other examples of words using the same root.  

Word Origin and History for organ
n.
fusion of late Old English organe, and Old French orgene(12c.), both meaning "musical instrument," both from Latin organa, plural of organum "a musical instrument," from Greek organon "implement, tool for making or doing; musical instrument; organ of sense, organ of the body," literally *"that with which one works,"* from PIE*werg-ano-, from root *werg- "to do," related to Greekergon "work" and Old English weorc (see urge (v.)). 

Applied vaguely in late Old English to musical instruments; sense narrowed by late 14c. to the musical instrument now known by that name (involving pipes supplied with wind by a bellows and worked by means of keys), though Augustine (c.400) knew this as a specific sense of Latin organa. The meaning "body part adapted to a certain function" is attested from late 14c., from a Medieval Latin sense of Latin organum.

But of course, you need to be as obtuse and myopic as possible here because you're failing to support your argument or refute mine. 

*Genetic variation might be random, but the natural selection that acts on that variation is not. *

You're jumping back to an argument for *microevolutionary change* again, which we both have agreed happens in nature. We WERE discussing the origin of life. Why does life exist in our universe? What part of physics or nature dictates that life must come into existence? Keep in mind, nothing in physics ever happens "just because" and there is always some reason or explanation for why. For instance, the Earth doesn't revolve around the Sun "just because it does" ...there is a reason it does, an explanation for why it does. When you drop something, it falls to the ground for a reason... not "just because it does." Everything that happens in a physical universe, happens for a reason. Nothing ever happens "just because."   

So knowing that there is a logical reason for everything in physics... what is your explanatory reason for life coming into existence?


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## Hollie (Dec 25, 2015)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


i've yet to see your argument. You haven't offered an argument to refute.  You have offered references to gawds as suddenly *poofing* life yet you have not made a case for those gawds as extant in any demonstrable way. 

There's no requirement for me to refute what you offer no evidence for. 

You are hoping to further a slogan right from your Christian creation ministries with something they call "micro evolutionary change". Science will defend evolution and that fully natural process. Micro and macro preceding the term "evolution" appear on the websites of fundamentalist creation ministries but not so much in science journals.


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## Boss (Dec 25, 2015)

Again, evolution doesn't deal with origin. No scientific evidence supporting ANY cross-genus evolution. Life exists and is not eternal, therefore it was created by something. There is no physical explanation for why life has to exist. 

You're full of piss and vinegar over religious people who make you feel guilty for your immoral behavior. Like any spoiled brat, you are now stomping around the kitchen with momma's switch (science) in order to "teach me a lesson" about making you feel sad. 

Someone needs to take science from you and wear your ass out real good.


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## skye (Dec 25, 2015)

we will have to die

to know

here on earth we can not know anything


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## BreezeWood (Dec 25, 2015)

sealybobo said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


.
_*And what is his theory on how multi cell orgs got here if not from single cells?*_



Boss said:


> No. In biology there are organisms defined as single-cell and multi-cellular.




by ignoring (his own) refutable evidence -









_*In biology there are organisms defined as single-cell and multi-cellular.*_

by ignoring the scientific evidence all organisms are single celled, either a single cell or a single multi subdivided cell, there is no such creature in existence that is composed of multi-dissimilar cells as he continues to insist is the norm - that he likewise blindly argues there is no proof of their evolution ... as they do not even exist.  

.


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## skye (Dec 25, 2015)

we will never know anything until we leave this body and go to the next sphere

in other words

until we die

so

we have to patiently wait for our time


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## BreezeWood (Dec 25, 2015)

skye said:


> we will have to die
> 
> to know
> 
> here on earth we can not know anything


.
_*here on earth we can not know anything*_


- nothing could be further from the truth ...








we have the timespan of our physiology to find the answers - the Apex of Knowledge is assailable and from its Apex can a freed Spirit accomplish Admission to the Everlasting.

.


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## skye (Dec 25, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > we will have to die
> ...




good for you


I still believe..... here while alive on this mortal body....

we can know nothing...

nothing 

nothing


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## skye (Dec 25, 2015)

one more thing


I do believe in GOD

but faith is blind

but I do believe


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## BreezeWood (Dec 25, 2015)

.
there is the Triumph of Good vs Evil - ignoring the Almighty is at your own peril.

.


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## skye (Dec 25, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> there is the Triumph of Good vs Evil - ignoring the Almighty is at your own peril.
> 
> .




you moron

who is ignoring the Almighty?

can't you read what I just wrote?


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## Boss (Dec 26, 2015)

BreezeWood said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > we will have to die
> ...


*we have the timespan of our physiology to find the answers*

And yet... even when we believe we've found the answers, the best we can ever do is THINK we know. 

skye is 100% correct... we can never KNOW.

*the Apex of Knowledge is assailable*

Knowledge is simply faith in evidence.


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## BreezeWood (Dec 26, 2015)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > skye said:
> ...


.
_*bossy:  .And yet... even when we believe we've found the answers, the best we can ever do is THINK we know.*_


nothing could be further from the truth ... The Triumph of Good vs Evil is real.

there is no difference than angling the fish onboard, freeing ones Spirit before death is the goal.

.


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## Mudda (Dec 26, 2015)

Boss said:


> Knowledge is simply faith in evidence.


No, faith is the belief in something unprovable.


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## Boss (Dec 26, 2015)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Knowledge is simply faith in evidence.
> ...



That's the point. You can't prove anything absolutely. You can believe you have. In fact, that is what Science provides... evidence to have faith in. I don't expect you to get this, you're not smart enough. You'll sit here and argue with examples of things we believe we know for certain. But I never claimed we couldn't believe we know for certain.


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## Mudda (Dec 26, 2015)

Boss said:


> [
> 
> That's the point. *You can't prove anything absolutely*. You can believe you have. In fact, that is what Science provides... evidence to have faith in. I don't expect you to get this, you're not smart enough. You'll sit here and argue with examples of things we believe we know for certain. But I never claimed we couldn't believe we know for certain.


1+1=2. You lose.


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## Boss (Dec 26, 2015)

Mudda said:


> 1+1=2. You lose.



No, you lose. As I said, you're not smart enough to grasp this. 

"1+1=2" is simply an equation we use to determine a result we believe. Many things have to be assumed. You've not defined absolutely what "one" is... what "two" is... what is meant by "equal" or what is meant by "plus." All of these have to be defined as we believe we know them. Does 1+1 always equal 2, or sometimes, can 2x1=2?  Or 3-1=2? Or 1.5+.5? -- As you can see, 2 may not always equal 1+1.  And again... One what?  How about an electron? What if I told you, at the subatomic level, 1 electron + 1 electron could = 3 electrons? Or 1 electron? Or no electrons? And it might only depend on whether you are observing them. 

You want to throw out another example of something we THINK we know?


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## Mudda (Dec 27, 2015)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > 1+1=2. You lose.
> ...


I know that 1+1=2. It might be too hard for you to grasp, but not for the rest of us. You lose again.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Because without the organized religion you REALLY have no evidence.
> ...


It dawned on me you are right that humans were spiritual for as far back as we can see. 

The professor on Gilligan island said it best this morning. The more primitive the tribe the more superstitious.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Interesting.  So what are atheistic, socialist societies so afraid of that they need to wall their people in?

I'm not surprised that you get your philosophy from Gilligan's Island.


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## 2aguy (Mar 20, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > 1+1=2. You lose.
> ...




Please...tell me you are not an Engineer or an Architect.......and if you are please tell me what you have built with your mathematical theories so I can avoid them......


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## BreezeWood (Mar 20, 2016)

2aguy said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


. 
the universe is fundamentally ... irrefutable. Spirituality is of its own interpretation with hopefully an Almighty to keep it straight.

.


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## jc456 (Mar 20, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


It's called power


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

The only requirement to be a Christian is to believe Jesus was who he said he was. That's it, nothing more.
So what's the downside in being a Christian?

Being told we are all created equally?
Love your neighbor as yourself?
Take care of the widows and orphans?
The greatest power on earth is love?

What exactly is it that hundreds of millions of people should know that should convince them they have made a huge mistake in their life?


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > 1+1=2. You lose.
> ...


In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable – what then?"
George Orwell, 1984


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> The only requirement to be a Christian is to believe Jesus was who he said he was. That's it, nothing more.
> So what's the downside in being a Christian?
> 
> Being told we are all created equally?
> ...


A lie is a lie no matter how good it makes you feel. You've been lied and swallowed it but don't expect others not to call out the lie.

Did you hear about the online church that has to give back millions for fraud prayer for money? If you don't see all the problems with your message, maybe you don't have the ability to be impartial.

Nothing wrong with your message if you just leave out the stories.  

And if only more Christians stayed on message maybe we'd be less put off by you guys.

I agree with all those messages regardless of who said them. Like ghandi Jesus sounded like a good man. Some say perfect. Maybe humans need the lie? I doubt that. I think in many ways it has held us back.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > The only requirement to be a Christian is to believe Jesus was who he said he was. That's it, nothing more.
> ...


I have zero idea why some people use people to judge God.

Again, what's the downside to this belief?


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Yesterday a member posted a video about the horrible ways people were tortured.

I said before that rulers use religion to control the masses but maybe the lie also served another purpose. Maybe it got rulers to stop murdering their subjects. Religion certainly has its positives or it wouldn't exist


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## jc456 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Yesterday a member posted a video about the horrible ways people were tortured.
> 
> I said before that rulers use religion to control the masses but maybe the lie also served another purpose. Maybe it got rulers to stop murdering their subjects. Religion certainly has its positives or it wouldn't exist


You never answered the man's question. Have some fucking respect you stupid fk!


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


If it is misused, for example if they use religion to discriminate or lead us to holy wars with the middle East.

No downside to teaching your message. Is that your only message?


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


What do you mean by using religion to discriminate?  By saying murder is wrong or being told some things are wrong that you want to do anyway?


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

jc456 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Yesterday a member posted a video about the horrible ways people were tortured.
> ...


It makes people sheep and ignorant to science. It gets them to be judgemental of people who aren't members of their club. And all too often the church is full of assholes who go to church 1 day a week to make up for being horrible people 6


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


Is jc456 going to yell at me for not understanding your point?

Imagine how we could wipe out poverty if every week instead of putting money into the churches pot all that money went right to a general fund that helped the poor.

George Carlin was right. Greatest bs story ever told.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


I counter that the hatred of God makes people delusional and lie to themselves. Isaac Newton was a devout Christian.  Bach said all his music was devoted to God.  

Again, tell us why it is bad for society to be judgemental, especially since your being so judgemental yourself.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...


You have no idea what they believed. People back then couldn't be outspoken atheists


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


So Big Government is your God.
Name one member of government living in a remote third world village helping people and getting no salary.  Name one government agency run efficiently with 85% of its revenue directly reaching those in need.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


I know exactly what Newton and Bach believed, they wrote it down.

Like I said, delusional and living in your own fantasy bubble world.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...


I don't hate God. See that's where you get confused. You keep claiming we blame God for humans faults. Or that we hate God. You say we attack God. You don't understand that we simply don't think one exists. Then you want to know what the down side is to believing a lie? Nothing. Ignorance is bliss

So the only ones to attack are you theists because there is no god. 

And keep in mind you aren't one harmonious group who all agree on anything.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


The vadican does a lot of good. Not nearly enough but a lot. They also have a fortune. Id be generous too.

You want to know what's wrong with religion? Just look at Christian Americans voting patterns


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

It doesn't matter what they be


Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


It doesn't matter what they believed.

Just like today atheists tend to be smarter than theists and a very high number of scientists today are not.

None of newtons experiments were religious. Don't care what he believed personally about gays God or racism.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


 You create strawmen to support your position, I said no such things.  I merely  pointed out you use humans to judge God.

And again you display your delusion and hatred.  No one, believers and nonbelievers knows 100% of Gods existence. 

Can you answer the question of what is the downside of one believing in Jesus or not?


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

You talk of God 


Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


You try to talk as if God existing is a given. You haven't even established it is real and want to ask what's the downside to believing it is? How intellectually lazy of you


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## forkup (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > jc456 said:
> ...


I don't hate God personally. I can't hate what I feel doesn't exist. I hate how being religious means that your view of morality and even truth has to take presedence above all others. You have ppl blowing themselves up in the name of god. Ppl killing doctors because they feel those doctors do immoral thing. Religious ppl trying to decide what knowledge is disbursed to our children even if that knowledge completly falls out of the realm of religion. If a person can be religious and are content in keeping that in their own personal space, there's nothing wrong with it. But nearly all organised religions in history have made attemps and most of the time succeeded in imposing their will on the populace they where imbedded in, most of the time with dissastrous consequences for those who didn't believe how they did.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


What's the downside to believing I'm a God?

What's the downside to not believing? You can't threaten hell because then that's not really belief. Then you just scared me into not thinking.

If "they" can convince you of that what can't they convince you?


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> It doesn't matter what they be
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


What do you mean it doesn't matter what they believed?  You just claimed religion makes people anti science.  I proved you wrong, so you just blew it off.

 I hold a US patent for a medical device, designed parts for commercial and military aircraft, written in astronomical publications, and have a Class I license for driving trains.  I may not be a genius but I sure love science.

So you're not interested in truth, just creating a fantasy bubble world for yourself.  Atheists are not smarter, they are more delusional.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

And if he 


forkup said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


If he doesn't understand that he doesn't want to.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

Cognitive dissonance


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Atheists do believe they are Gods, and that's your decision.


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## jc456 (Mar 20, 2016)

Seems you are the one be


sealybobo said:


> jc456 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


It seems you are the one being  judgmental, ah the hypocrisy


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Ah, so there it is.  People should not believe in Jesus because it makes them believe in a limited government for the people and by the people.


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## forkup (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


I


Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


I'm an atheist and I certainly don't feel that I'm a god. I do however believe in the fact that there are no absolute answers. I'll illustrate using abortion. The Cristian right believes that abortion is wrong, period. I feel I am not qualified to judge when we can talk about a living person. How I see it it's always gonna be an arbitrary line. Is a sperm cell alive, it has after all dna. Is it alive when the cell starts to divide, I don't know. Lucky for me there are bioligist and judges who make those decisions for me. Here is where religion becomes a problem. Religion feels it has the OBLIGATION to bypass the process. It basicly isn't different from sharia law in the middle east, it's view of moral right or wrong is absolute. Who do you feel thinks of himself as the more Godlike person?


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

I'll let


Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


 I'll let you know every time Christians go off message. You know, beyond the love thy neighbor and be a better person stuff. 

Just remember if there is no god, all I have to judge the concept by is the people who believe in him.

I know your delusion isn't as bad as Isis but like you they believe in God too and that their message is for the greater good.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

forkup said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


They think they are always right. Why? Because God endorses them.


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## forkup (Mar 20, 2016)

In thi


sealybobo said:


> forkup said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


I believe the basic difference between religious ppl and atheists is the simple fact that to a religious person "I don't know" is a scary concept. That's the whole basis of religion. It has an answer to every question, there is no uncertianty for a religious person he is secure in the knowledge of god. For me, not knowing isn't all that scary and alot of times it's exiting, because it gives me the chance to look for answers. At the same time I don't have a problem with the knowledge that I won't know the answer to some questions. I've seen that for most religious ppl that last sentence becomes unbearable.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> forkup said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...



Hilarious.  
Religious people always think their right, yet you claim you're always right.
Religious people are not smart, yet when pointed out the greatest minds were religious you say never mind.
Religious people are judgemental, yet every post you make is judgemental.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

forkup said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


OK, let's use your example of abortion.
Neither you nor I know when a fetus becomes a free thinking human being.
So the only moral decision to make is you must error on the side of life.

But there is that M word.  Moral.

If there is no God, your version of morality is just as valid as Pol Pot's or Osama Bin Ladens.  To argue point is just intellectual dishonesty.


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## forkup (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > forkup said:
> ...


First of I didn't claim I was always right, I claimed that I don't feel I'm qualified to make decisions for everybody, that's why I'm happy to live in a society that has ppl available and trained in making decisions that are based on rational thinking.
Everybody judges and the way I see it, when I judge I always try to put in, it's my opinion for the simple reason that I know there's always the chance I'm wrong. Like my last post suggested I have no problem admitting that I don't have the answer to all questions. Wich is even if I do say so myself more then a religious person is usually wiling to admit.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

forkup said:


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You need to see who the post responded to, it was not you.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

forkup said:


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Do you know what the definition of Israel is?  To struggle with God.  As in God, you really ticked me off or God I don't agree with this or God do you exist.

Very few atheists will say they there is a probability God exists.  That's intellectual dishonesty with ones self.


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## forkup (Mar 20, 2016)

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Society decides these issues for a reason you know. Morality is by definition fluid if you don't believe me, read the bible again. I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of parts that don't mesh with modern day understanding of it. The way we learned to deal with it is that we appoint representatives and judges to reflect and judge on what's right or wrong. As to your other point. How far you want to take that argument? Should I be considered a mass murderer because I've jerked of in my life? Should my wife be put in prison because she takes birth control? Like I said the line is arbitrary.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

forkup said:


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More strawman arguments about the Bible.  Either cite specific verses or drop your boring fantasy versions.

But you saying morality is fluid if there is no God is exactly my point, thank you.  Charles Manson's version of morality is just as valid as yours if there is no God.


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## forkup (Mar 20, 2016)

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I'll say there is a possibiity god exist. There are questions science more then likely will be  never able to answer, and in those cases god is as good an answer as any i suppose. Having said that in the more likely answer is, we have no way to collect enough data to get to a reasonable assumption, let alone an answer. The big bang comes to mind.


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## jc456 (Mar 20, 2016)

forkup said:


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Nobody is asking you to, we are a nation of laws, he'll a world of laws. Who do you think makes them?

Curious, when you avoid a serious scenario, do you thank anyone?

Me, I thank god, you?


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## forkup (Mar 20, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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*Don’t Get Married*:  1st Corinthians 7:27  NASB

Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

*Prayer (not doctors) if You’re Sick*:  James 5:14  NASB

Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

*Women Should Shut Up in Church*:  1st Corinthians 14:34  NASB

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak.

*The Wealthy Will Be Condemned by God*:  James 5:1-5  NASB

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted… Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will… consume your flesh like fire. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

*Women: Don’t Dress Up, Fix Your Hair, or Wear Jewelry*:  1st Peter 3:3  The Good News Translation

You should not use outward aids to make yourselves beautiful, such as the way you fix your hair, or the jewelry you put on, or the dresses you wear.

*Return Runaway Slaves to Their Owners*:  Philemon 1:12   The Message

I’m sending (the slave Onesimus) back to you… I wanted in the worst way to keep him here… But I didn’t want to do anything behind your back… Maybe it’s all for the best that you lost him for a while. You’re getting him back now for good—and no mere slave this time, but a true Christian brother!

*Gouge Out Your Eyeball*:  Matthew 5:29  New Living Translation

So if your eye—even your good eye—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away.

*Cut Off Your Own Hand*:  Matthew 5:30  New Living Translation

And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.

*Never Swear an Oath*:  Matthew 5:34  God’s Word Translation

Don’t swear an oath at all. (puts a new slant on the Pledge of Allegiance)

*Don’t Defend Yourself if Attacked*:  Matthew 5:39  Amplified Version

But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.

*Give Anything You Have to Anyone Who Asks*:  Matthew 5:42  Common English Bible

Give to those who ask, and don’t refuse those who wish to borrow from you.

*Do NOT Pray in Public*:  (Matthew 6:6)  Common English Bible

When you pray, go to your room, shut the door, and pray to your Father… in that secret place.

*Don’t Save Your Money*:  (Matthew 6:19)  New Living Translation

Don’t store up treasures here on earth, where moths eat them and rust destroys them, and where thieves break in and steal.

*Don’t Plan for The Future*:  Matthew 6:34  NASB

So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself.

*Do Not Marry a Divorced Woman*:  Matthew 5:32  NASB

Whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

*Don’t Wear Nice Clothes*:  Matthew 6:28-29  NASB

And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you?

*Hate Your Family*:  Luke 14:26  NASB

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters… he cannot be My disciple.

*Give Away EVERYTHING You Own*:  Luke 14:33  NASB

So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
As to your second point. Charles Manson society deems a criminal.
saying my version of morality equals his only holds water if I would say law doesn't apply to me.
I don't decide what is moral ,society does.Hence it's fluid. Point and case slavery. Morally right into the 19th century, now we find it reprehensible.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

forkup said:


> In thi
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And all I'm saying is their answers make me uncomfortable. I think it's creepy ignorant naive wishful thinking.

Now I don't go around telling religious people that's what I think. 

Guy earlier said sir Isaak Newton believed in God. I'm sure he did. So did I before the internet.

I hope us humans evolve out of these ancient organized religions.


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

jc456 said:


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Yes even I catch myself thanking God all the time. It's just an expression.

And don't expect someone who's desparate or afraid to be thinking rationally


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## jc456 (Mar 20, 2016)

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rich, honest, but rich!


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## sealybobo (Mar 20, 2016)

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So in your America women who get alley abortions should be tried for murder? They are not murderers. Not in the country you live in.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

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I knew you'd cherry pick to keep things out of context.

1 Peter 3:3-4 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. *Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. *


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 20, 2016)

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Who gets alley abortions?  You fuckers keep inventing shot because you have nothing to support your twisted fucked up beliefs.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> The only requirement to be a Christian is to believe Jesus was who he said he was. That's it, nothing more.
> So what's the downside in being a Christian?
> 
> Being told we are all created equally?
> ...



Dear Weatherman2020
A. The explanation of "Jesus being the son of God" does not always include nontheists or secular gentiles who can be neighbors in Christ yet not understand or agree with such statements spoken in scriptural terms.
B. Jesus refers to the Gentiles very clearly when he says he governs them as a separate fold of the one flock. Just because these Gentiles/nontheists are under natural laws, such as science, does not make them against Christ unless they reject truth and justice which God and Jesus stand for
C. What I would say receiving believing and living by Christ Jesus means, in spirit, is RESTORATIVE JUSTICE. So whether people consider themselves Believers under Scriptural laws, including the Jews Christians and Muslims, or nontheist secular Gentiles under Natural laws, including Buddhists humanists Constitutionalists, it is possible to be believers in Christ and NOT use the Christian/Biblical language to express this faith in RESTORATIVE JUSTICE as the key to peace freedom and salvation for humanity.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
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Dear Mudda and Boss
I would say that defining GOD to be something that exists
is like assigning the term 4 to the quantity: * * * *
It is the TERM people AGREE to use for * * * *

Religions are like arguing is GOD arrived at by stating
2+2=4
2X2=4
1+1+1+1=4
2^2=4
etc. (NOTE: even though all these are correct, they are NOT THE SAME.
adding 1+1+1+1 to get 4 is NOT the same as taking 2^2 to get to 4.
And a lot of fights in religion are because there are differences,
and people argue you can't just treat all these ways as the same because they aren't.)

All these are right ways of saying * * * *
but they are all different ways of expressing the relationships
between different components that all add up to * * * *
defined as 4.

Someone else using Binary may express 4 differently.
Or someone may use marks in the sand | | | |

What we could do to avoid bickering over terms and analogies
is try to stick to the Principles Concepts Relations or Essence of
what we MEAN by "God" "Jesus" "sin" etc.spell these out in
natural terms what we are trying to talk about, and then we might
be able to discuss those things, and if we agree or not on the
NATURE of life, love, truth, wisdom, justice, universal laws, good will
or whatever else we mean by GOD in a specific context.

Good day and please focus on nitpicking for the purpose of
resolution and reaching agreement, not for the purpose of rejection
and obstruction. Criticism and correction is good, and much needed,
if we are going to pinpoint where we can actually communicate and agree. And not just play Devil's advocate to discredit or strike someone down. Why not focus on the universal points we want to build up upon?


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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Dear sealybobo and Weatherman2020

Why just focus on the women? Aren't the men equally responsible for the decision to have sex that results in unwanted pregnancy/children/abortion (if not MORE responsible if the man coerced the woman physically or emotionally).

If it is less likely that women forced men to have sex, but more likely that men force women, why is this framed as the woman's responsibility except that's the only point where people can try to get the govt to legally intervene.  Given the entire process, the point of intervention should be at prevention at the point of deciding to have sex consensually or one partner forcing the other if it isn't mutually consensus.

So that point is PRIVATE and needs to be addressed by education and counseling people to be responsible and NOT abuse either SEX or abuse RELATIONSHIPS, which the Govt CANNOT regulate!

Perhaps people COULD agree to enforce "health and safety codes" or higher standards of relationships to avoid abuses; but this sounds more like a PRIVATE policy, such as private schools and campuses might enforce for students who agree to enroll in such a private institution.

If the purpose is to promote responsibility and prevent abortion,
why not enforce standards that hold men and women equally responsible?

What if sex acts that lead to unwanted pregnancy, unwanted abortion, or unwanted children were classified as a statutory degree of RAPE.

What if both partners were required to undergo counseling to resolve conflicts if there were reports of RELATIONSHIP ABUSE?

Govt may not be able to intervene on such private levels, as necessary to hold both partners equally responsible at the point where the decision to have sex is made. But that's where men and women can be held equally responsible so at least the policies would be fair.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



Dear Delta4Embassy
A. If the God you want to believe in is based on CONDITIONAL FAITH, where you would only have faith if this God interferes with natural laws of cause and effects,
then maybe that kind of inconsistent God shouldn't exist and it is GOOD that you don't believe in it and that's not how God works. 

B. why would you want God to break the very laws of science, of cause and effect that are universal? If we drive carelessly and something goes wrong, of course a wreck should happen. 
If God magically intervened every time we drove, what motivation would we have to learn to be careful and not depend on God to save us all the time?

If you can understand GOD as the laws of LIFE or NATURE,
then NATURE can provide rain and sustenance that gives life, and NATURE can produce disasters, earthquakes, tsunamis that cost life.

If we build better systems to live in harmony with nature, we can learn to avoid the loss of life.

If you want to see how God/Life/Nature works as a POSITIVE force, look into natural spiritual healing, and how FORGIVENESS opens up and restores channels to self-healing of the mind and body.  

In that process, maybe you can see that the DEFAULT process is towards healing, health and life.

And in that context, maybe you can see that in all incidents of death, disease, crisis, tragedy, etc. there was some factor that interfered with the natural flow of life and caused something to go wrong.

So our purpose as humans with a conscience to learn by free will, reason and experience is to examine the "cause and effect" and learn how to correct and prevent as much as the mishaps as possible, prevent suffering and increase the natural harmony, balance and health that is the original default.  Most of these anomalies can be prevented when we understand the causes. some things can't be helped, but the things that can be, can be improved upon so we can do better in the future.


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## Mudda (Mar 21, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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I guess you haven't figured out by now that Boss is a retard.


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## Militants (Mar 21, 2016)

Only Christ and Allah and maybe the Israeli exist nobody of the Lutheran's ....


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Look, of course i cherry pick, so do you.It proves my point that morality is fluid right? You pick and chose what are valid moral lessons from the bible trough 21st century eyes.I do the same .There is one big difference. I don't pretend that my view of morality is the only valid one,you do. And you feel you have a right to do so, because you think your view is sanctioned by god.The first post I've stated what my problem with religion is," I hate how being religious means that your view of morality and even truth has to take presedence above all others." In the few reply's you gave me you have equated my view of morality, to that of Charles Manson, Osama Bin Laden and Pol Pott.While the only thing I claimed was that I'm fine with a rational approach to it ,where I don't nessecarily feel I need to be the one doing the judging. Hence proving my point, you being religious makes you feel that the only valid view of morality is yours.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

forkup said:


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Morality is only fluid if you don't believe in the God of Jacob.  Every one of the verses you posted are attempts to distort, just as I showed.

Doesn't seem to trouble you that your version of morality is just as valid as Hitlers.


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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How do they distort? They are correct quotes right,chapter and verse just like you asked. The only way they distort is the simple fact that the NT was written almost 2000 years ago. A time very different from our own. Yet you feel that not only are the lessons valid but they are the ONLY valid lessons. Theres nothing in the NT condemning slavery, there's nothing saying you can't marry a 12 year old being an adult male. I think it's safe to say we don't agree with either of those things. Here again your equating my beliefs with another atrocious historical figure. It would be annoying if every time you did it, you wouldn't be making my point; Let's examine that statement. Hitler was a nationalistic, xenofobic, narcissistic, mass murderer. I've literally stated in every post here that my view of morality doesn't need to be your view of morality. I've been nothing if not non- judgemental.My morals are formed by society, my parents, friends, family, fairy tales, past experiences, my own common sense and even.... the NT. That's right I was raised Roman Catholic, I was baptised and confirmed. You know what the most important lesson was I got from it. The parable of the good samaritan. Where Jesus thaught, that being religious doesn't nessecarily mean moral and not religious nessecarily means sinner. And that is how you get morals and it's not the same for everybody.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

forkup said:


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Pulling one sentence from a letter does not distort?  I could have fun with your posts.
For example:
*Return Runaway Slaves to Their Owners*:  Philemon 1:12   The Message

I’m sending (the slave Onesimus) back to you… I wanted in the worst way to keep him here… But I didn’t want to do anything behind your back… Maybe it’s all for the best that you lost him for a while. You’re getting him back now for good—and no mere slave this time, but a true Christian brother!

A. Slavery in that time was for 7 years, initiated when you could not pay someone back.  There were strict rules that slaves were not be abused.
B. Onesiimus stole from his master and fled.  He ran into Paul who converted him to Christianity.  He then convinced him to go back to his master and work things out. Philemon is a letter to his master appealing that the two reconcile the issue as Christians.

Perspective.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

forkup said:


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Why does it not trouble you that your version of morality is just as valid as Timothy McVeigh's?


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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lol. My turn to ask a question.Why do you feel, you're the supreme authority on morals?


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

forkup said:


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And when did I ever say I was an authority with morals?  I'd much rather be violating all the 10 Commandments.  But I've seen to much to know the God of Jacob exists so I do my best to follow the guidelines stated in THE supreme authority.


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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emale Hebrew slaves were to be treated differently from males. Parents could sell their daughters into slavery. (Exodus 21:7-11 NASB)

_7If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. 8If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. 11If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money._


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

forkup said:


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we can play that game all night. Again proving my point that morality is fluid. Even your moral compass can't agree on wich way is north lol


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

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The supreme authority to you.  I rather take my guidance not from a book that's at a minimum 2000 years old and is contradictiry and in large parts unusable as a moral guide to anything.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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And?


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

forkup said:


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That's my point.  You'd rather decide what's right or wrong depending upon your mood at the moment.  Cheat on your wife? No problem.  Steal from that old lady? No problem. People can justify murder.


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Slavery was morally accepted in biblical times. Do we agree? If yes. Then how exactly do you feel you have a right to question my morals in any way if you use his book as a guide?


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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You simply haven't been listening or you don't want to listen.My morals are all the morals you have minus some minor differences. I just don't need the bible to tell me what those morals are. And unlike you I'm aware that these are my morals and I have no problem accepting that some ppl don't feel the same as me. It is not a problem for me as long as it doesn't hurt anybody.If someone steals from a old lady. He breaks the law and my own personal moral code. If someone I know cheats on his wife that's his business. I personally wouldn't, but it's also not my business, that person needs to live with himself  He in other words breaks my personal moral code, but i don't feel I have the moral authority to judge him.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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Your morals as as of right now.  Tonight you may justify to yourself stealing from that old lady is justified.
Me on the other hand have that damn thou shall not steal that denies me from justifying stealing from her.  I may still do it, but I cannot say it was the right thing to do.

There are good people who are atheists, and bad people who say theyre religious, but the point is I have documented guidelines of good and evil.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

forkup said:


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And who are you to judge if slavery is wrong?


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

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You don't think a secular law books aren't documented guidelines? They aren't just guidelines they are designed to leave as little room for interpretation as words can make them. They also adjust with the times, all advantages the bible doesn't have. That's also the answer to the second question. I condemn slavery but that's besides the point. The LAW forbids slavery.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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Really?  When has anyone been arrested for adultry?  Spending your day coveting your neighbors new boat?  Is there some law that tells you to take care of the widows and orphans?

And the law only forbids slavery because Christians put it there.


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## ChrisL (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Typical from those who need a "guide" to be moral.  Lol.


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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You don't think a secular law books aren't documented guidelines? They aren't just guidelines they are designed to leave as little room for interpretation as words can make them. They also adjust with the times, all advantages the bible doesn't have. That's also the answer to the second question. I condemn slavery but that's besides the point. The LAW forbids slavery. And as long as the law isn't completly oposed to my beliefs I will follow i


Weatherman2020 said:


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Ah and here we are again with the original point. Being religious makes you feel like your moral compass is the only moral compass. If you feel that adultry is  an actual crime, fine that's your right. It is thank god not the law of the land. Because society deemed matters of the heart out of his purview and certainly not worthy of arrest. Greed is the basis of american capitalism, unless you can now say you are a Bernie supporter, you are in violation of that moral law you say you cling to. As to the last one being generous is something you are not something you are because the bible told you to be. What's more meaningfull? Giving because it's the right thing to do, or giving because it's a way to heaven?


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## Slyhunter (Mar 21, 2016)

Universal Morality = Do No Harm! Do unto others as you would do unto yourself. Unless you're a sadist.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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How many millions will fudge on their taxes and the government won't catch them?

How many commit adultry and never get caught?

I don't have the delusion I can trick God.


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## ChrisL (Mar 21, 2016)

*RELIGION*


What is the basic purpose of religion? 
Religion is designed to focus the people's attention and energy on a single, unchanging, uncompromising and invisible supreme being who allegedly created an inferior human race just for some extra companionship and love for himself and then supposedly foisted a set of oppressive and in some cases arbitrary rules on them, which if broken would be met with unimaginable punishment.



This keeps the followers in a continuing state of fear and compliance.



They are afraid to question the intentions of this invisible being and they are afraid of even expressing their own individuality in many cases. _Christians_ and others are taught that they have virtually no power to do anything except _pray_, _worship_ and do _good deeds_.



They are taught to practice self denial and are told that their own will is totally irrelevant. Religious followers believe that they are yielding their will over to a benevolent cosmic individual who has _single-handedly created the whole universe_ and has their best interests at heart when in fact they are handing over their will and freedoms to hidden groups of religious elites for the elites own personal gains.

It appears that religion must constantly degrade and humiliate its followers in order to glorify and elevate its _god_. Unfortunately many people appear eager to give away their power to authority and seem to have a need and even a desire to be ruled and disciplined by it.



Worshipping gods is futile and is nothing more than an ancient primitive custom practiced by weak minded and superstitious people. It has no place in the 21st century. The reason we have life in this world is to experience life in this world, not to spend our entire lives studying an old book, looking up to the sky and worshipping an invisible ruler in another realm. 

The main method by which _Christians_ in particular are trapped and deceived is with the _messiah or saviour story_. This is linked to the 'original sin' story which is designed to impose a large amount of guilt onto the whole of humanity. The believers are then so grateful that they have been saved by the _son of God_ nearly 2000 years before they were born that in some cases they abandon all reason, logic and good judgment to obey and worship this god and his son.



Anyone who believes this story is indeed lost because to believe that a god would send his only son to help us, only to see his son get tortured and murdered, and then instead of unleashing all his wrath, simply absolve us from all crimes past and present, is pure madness to say the least.



Where is the lesson for us in that? What has been achieved? There is no lesson or purpose because it's all about mass psychological enslavement and disempowerment. 

The so called _god_ that we are expected to worship is undoubtedly just a dictator strawman concocted by the religious elites for the purpose of controlling the masses.



If there is a prime creator in this universe then it is unlikely that he would interfere and impose on us by foisting his arbitrary laws, let alone need and demand our frivolous worship and blind obedience. Neither of those things requires any level of mental aptitude or creativity. The intelligence and skills that's been given to many has gone totally to waste.



Many have lowered themselves to the pointless practice of hero worship.

Furthermore, _Christianity_, _Islam_ and a few other religions are polarized religions. They are polarized against each other. One is believed to be good and the other is seen as bad. The funny thing is, is that each one thinks that their's is good and the other's is bad. In most ways they're both bad. The only good kind of religion is a neutral and all loving one.



Polarized religions have been devised by influential elite leaders to play the people off against each other. That way the elite can defeat and enslave the population practically without lifting a finger.

Religion is like a drug to some. And they need a 2000 year old hero to save them - from themselves that is!


The churches don't permit their followers to have any real truth and knowledge because that would empower the people too much so they spoon feed them kiddie stories, half truths, distortions and even lies and the followers value it highly even though they must spend the rest of their lives just making sense of it.


The irony is that religion is pretty much man made, so mankind has really brought this onto themselves.


The religious elites are not totally to blame because many people actually enjoy listening to mystical sounding stories, performing rituals, customs and traditions, playing polarity roles and dramas and waging battles against what they perceive to be a devil boogie man. They also have a secret fetish to be dominated and ruled with an iron fist by a supreme ruler or king.


After all these centuries people still haven't learned to take back their power and start taking responsibility for themselves . 

The Horrible Truth About Religion


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

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I see your dodging every single one of my statements. Do you support capitalism? Do you feel someone who commits adultery needs to go to jail? What's the more meaningfull giving?


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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No, it's you who continue to ignore moral relativism is grossly flawed and always leads to what I know as evil.


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

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I'm kinda getting bored with this. I've had the courage to state my ethical world to you. I've been civil altough you have compared me to everybody but the devil himself.You have given me alot of direct question I've given you a direct answer to most of those questions. Now so far you have been very very eager to judge every single aspect of my morals, on the other hand you have given me precious little to your own ethical believes. Now I think there's some quote saying something like  don't judge unless you'dd be judged so if you are not willing to go out on a limb and keep on contenting yourself to try to find little holes in my logic I see no point in continuing.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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You continue to make this about you and I, despite me driving home it is about ethical systems, one based upon the Bible, the other based upon an individual's feelings at the moment.  If you can ever get past this is not about you, let me know.  
Have a good day.


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## ChrisL (Mar 21, 2016)

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Bye-bye now!


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

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Then answer the damn questions. Do you believe in Capitalism? Is adultry a crime? is slavery morally right? And here's the most important one do you feel your interpretation of the bible Trumps secular law?None of those questions are about me, I've answered your questions to what I believe, just so you could equate them to the beliefs of some of the most unetical ppl who ever walked the earth.But you can't show me the same courtesy.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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I believe in Capitalism, adultry is legal, and slavery as you define it is morally wrong.
The Bible is the document above mans. 

So?

So if German Christians had a clue that was the case they would have ignored German laws and not rounded up Jews.

Got a problem with that?

Now back to my original question from days ago - what's the downside to believing in Jesus?


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## ChrisL (Mar 21, 2016)

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I believe in Jesus.  He was a man who existed thousands of years ago.  Lol.  He had some good ideas.  Doesn't mean he was "divine."


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## forkup (Mar 21, 2016)

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First of,thank you I've been waiting a while now for a straight answer. As you can imaging theres obvious room to try to find logic holes but by all means let's stay on topic. I'll give you the same answer as I gave in my first post and I'll illustrate where needed. just not the part where we talked about morals, since i think we covered that part as good as we are going to.
"
I don't hate God personally. I can't hate what I feel doesn't exist. I hate how being religious means that your view of morality and even truth has to take presedence above all others. You have ppl blowing themselves up in the name of god. Ppl killing doctors because they feel those doctors do immoral thing. Religious ppl trying to decide what knowledge is disbursed to our children even if that knowledge completly falls out of the realm of religion. If a person can be religious and are content in keeping that in their own personal space, there's nothing wrong with it. But nearly all organised religions in history have made attemps and most of the time succeeded in imposing their will on the populace they where imbedded in, most of the time with dissastrous consequences for those who didn't believe how they did."
Obviously there are plenty of examples of Religiously inspired wars, but I want to illustrate another thing. The reason the dark ages lasted so long was because of religion. All knowledge in the dark ages had to be viewed first and foremost trough a religious prism. There was no way to be a secular sholar. All schools where religious and so all knowledge that in ANY way contradicted scripture was avoided or violently suppressed. Examples are numerous. Praying was considered an intregal part of medicine. Kowledge of anatomy was non existent since disecting cadavers was a crime. Personal hygiene was considered ungodly. Now that's history, but in the US there is a growing movement to like you just stated put god before man, resulting among other things in the supressing of science in area's where it contradicts scripture.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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You're rambling all around the question.  It is not about what you believe or what others do to gain personal power. I can bring up the 160 million murdered by their own Godless governments in just the past century if you want, but that's not my question. 

What is the downside of believing what Jesus taught?


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## Slyhunter (Mar 21, 2016)

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You have two paths, you can sit back and wait for Jesus to do it or you can figure it out for yourself. It's a dangerous choice to sit back and do nothing waiting for Jesus to do it.


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## ChrisL (Mar 21, 2016)

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What do you follow that Jesus taught?  Probably not much.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

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NO, not at ALL.
Boss is a highly discerning very sensitive and intelligent articulate contributor in these discussions. May have a bit of an edge or ego that rubs against others with the same. That comes with the territory when you think for yourself and push for higher discernment and understanding among peers, it's going to get aggressive and pushy, defensive and a bit emotional where toes and turf are stepped on.

That's normal when discussing religion and politics!

I respect Boss and can forgive that slightly negative rejecting edge.
I can still work with Boss to the degree that Boss will work with me.

Being pushy and standing for what is consistent and what makes sense to you is absolutely necessary to carry these discussions and debates to their rightful conclusion.

I say go for it, we need more people willing to push like Boss is.
And just be okay with the process and not freak out and call names to release the pressure it creates throwing everyone's beliefs and opinions in one huge stew to sort out.  Of course it's going to look crazy, but as long as the people involved are committed to making sense and resolving every last conflict or objection, hey, we can hash it all out!

I say Hooray for people like Boss sealybobo Derideo_Te numan orogenicman Inevitable M.D. Rawlings willing to push the envelope and keep asking questions until we pinpoint specific answers. If we are going to disagree, let's find out where and why instead of just calling the other person shortsighted, ignorant or wrong and leaving the issues unsettled.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

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Dear ChrisL everyone I know follows their CONSCIENCE and wants peace and justice on THEIR terms. In order to do this consistently, and in harmony with everyone else seeking and following the same, we end up having to correct, agree and synchronize in the spirit of truth, which we determine by conscience, by mutually correcting each other until we hash out what we agree to be true and just.  

What determines our faith is how far into this process we give up,
and how much we forgive each other's flaws, faults or biases and how difficult that makes it on everyone, and keep hashing it out anyway.

Very few people have faith this process can be done peacefully.
But everyone I know wants truth and justice and wants to be free from suffering and conflict caused by falsehood, ill will and negative motivations. People want to be free, at peace and secure in having their will and consent respected. So underneath, we all want the same thing.

We just don't all agree how to get there, and thus people fight for control instead of working together, step by step, and agreeing how to proceed.


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## sealybobo (Mar 21, 2016)

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I guess one of the points I try to make about the God hypothesis is so what?  It doesn't bother me that a lot of my friends and family are Jewish Muslims Christians or Jews but it would bother a lot of them that would get real upset.

And that's why God makes people crazy. That and the virgin birth thing.

Boss believes in God but agrees with me on organized religions. If not he'd be a member.


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## GiveMeATicketToWork (Mar 21, 2016)

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Hi Emily, 

As this is a religion section I think that there are just some people who are evil-natured as the Bible says (Romans 9:22.)

Romans 9:22
English Standard Version (ESV)
(22)What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,


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## sealybobo (Mar 21, 2016)

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There were 999 other religions that came before and after Christianity. Christianity just happens to be our societies main religion. Are ethics much different in Israel? Did the Jews have ethics morals and laws before Christianity was born?


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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I chose Christianity because that is what the haters hate the most. They are terrified of Islam so give it a wide berth, Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other claptrap are widely accepted by them.  I have my theory as to why, but that's a different topic.

What I'm waiting for is an answer from the haters what's the problem of believing in the delusion of Christianity.


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## sealybobo (Mar 21, 2016)

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Let me know when being an atheist stops bothering you theists. 

It shouldn't bother you if a politician or your child believes. If it does, that's the problem.


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## sealybobo (Mar 21, 2016)

Lol. Family guy is doing an episode on this. Brian admitted he's an athiest and the whole towns against him


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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Who says your beliefs bothers anyone?  Your beliefs are yours to decide.  It's the haters who try to crush Christianity.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Lol. Family guy is doing an episode on this. Brian admitted he's an athiest and the whole towns against him


So you get your wisdom from Family Guy.  Figures.


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## sealybobo (Mar 21, 2016)

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Oh it does. If not why have the discussion?

And if I feel your religion is a lie and bad for people, I'm going to let everyone know.

Shouldn't potential members hear all the facts?

Don't say our beliefs don't bother you people. You don't want us telling people they're being scammed. If your books make sense it would be easy to show why we are wrong but we're ruining your scam.
Not just Christianity all organized religions. I want us to evolve beyond that bullshit


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## sealybobo (Mar 21, 2016)

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That and the internet


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

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Hi sealybobo and thanks again for sharing wherever you can get a word in edgewise!

I find the common factor when it comes to that bullying and control issue, 
is FEAR, and UNFORGIVENESS. if people start getting divided against another
person or group, they start projecting and controlling.  

so that's where the Christian message of healing and transforming by grace, comes in.
of letting go and renouncing our old ways, and agreeing to look at the world and
each other through the eyes of children, and see the good and not just the bad.

people and relations can change dramatically, be completely reborn and made new.
but it takes a CONSCIOUS choice to forgive the past, and that takes strength
and humility that people usually draw on a "higher power" to rise above their
own will which is to resist change, fear control of others, and continue to fight in conflict.

We don't have to be a member of this group or that group
to play an equal part in this transformation process
that all humanity must undergo at some point
if we are going to reach maturity.

We are not all in the same stages of development,
and that's another reason why it looks so crazy.
Life is a like a one-room school where the 2 year olds
and 12 year olds are thrown in with the college level interns
and professor level scholars.  We have to learn to organize
and help each other to grow, not fight over control to
kick people out of the class who are causing problems.
We need to solve those problems that aren't going to
go away just by getting rid of people. The problems still
carry from one generation to the next, so we need to 
work smarter and figure out how to make the most of
each person and each group's and culture's best strong points.

it's too easy to get caught up in the blame game.
When we are ready, we'll move forward and ask how
can we correct things and improve and build instead of
abolish, divide and destroy.  how do we work together
to rebuild relations and direct our energies and talents
in the maximum way to achieve the greatest sustainable good.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

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Figures you avoid the question too and go into the typical hater rant.


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## Slyhunter (Mar 21, 2016)

My Christian friends get hugely pissed at me for posting anti-Christian stuff on my FaceBook page. Like Brian's cartoon which I just did. The problem is they can handle criticism of their faith because it tempts them into not believing too because you make too much sense.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

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Hi GiveMeATicketToWork
What I find causes people to act in evil selfish ways is fear and unforgiveness
of problems or conflicts of the past that are projected forward onto other people and relations.

both of these can be corrected.

If you look into Scott Peck's books on "People of the Lie" and
"Glimpses of the Devil" he experimented with the process that priests
use in exorcism/deliverance to REMOVE the negative destructive influences
from the minds of schizophrenic patients.  These were actually distinct
personalities or entities that Christians call "demons" and use deliverance prayer
to remove the generational blockages that attract and store these invading "demons." 

When the cycles or generations of negative energy is finally broken,
this is part of the larger spiritual process the Buddhists call "karma" and overcoming it.
If we don't identify and renounce the negative causes, then the karma will repeat
in a vicious cycle, and people will continue to suffer the negative effects until we learn
to break from this.

The Christians call it breaking the generational curses and use the same prayer process for forgiveness to heal both physical and mental conditions, even criminal illness, and also
heal personal relations and whole communities using the same healing prayer by grace and forgiveness as transforming power.

GiveMeATicketToWork What I have reminded Christians is that the natural design of the mind soul and body is to be an IMAGE of God. The original state is PURE.

Anything evil, selfish or fearful stacked on may corrupt the natural state,
and make it unnatural and out of balance and harmony as before, as God intends.

But the evil is not permanent. It is not sustainable because it would take more and more energy to keep building and growing, so it will expend itself at some point, being finite.

What is infinite is God's/Universal truth and love that is able to multiple the more it is shared.
so that is sustainable, the good, the truth the love.

Anything that is the opposite: fear, ignorance, ill will, anger, hatred jealously division --
these will not last but cannot sustain in the presence of truth and love,
which overcomes all fear and ignorance.

Eventually all wrongs and the source of all wrongs will be
addressed, corrected and healed.  this is all part of the human spiritual learning curve.
Any setbacks or changes along the way are part of that spiritual growth and journey.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 21, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> My Christian friends get hugely pissed at me for posting anti-Christian stuff on my FaceBook page. Like Brian's cartoon which I just did. The problem is they can handle criticism of their faith because it tempts them into not believing too because you make too much sense.


My atheist friends get hugely pissed at me when I post anti-atheist stuff on my FaceBook page.  They don't like it because it tempts them into believing because it makes too much sense.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 21, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> My Christian friends get hugely pissed at me for posting anti-Christian stuff on my FaceBook page. Like Brian's cartoon which I just did. The problem is they can handle criticism of their faith because it tempts them into not believing too because you make too much sense.



Dear Slyhunter I see it as two totally different approaches to framing the world. So it is NOT either/or but all of the above.

It's like having arts and science at the same time; these do not compete or conflict with each other but provide two totally different avenues and means of expression and exploration.  Both are absolutely essential, and are set up the way they operate for a reason.

I think both groups insult or offend the other by trying to trump or discredit each other.

if you can imagine trying to conduct an orchestra where the musicians are
arguing if the "treble" parts are the only right notes and the "bass" part is wrong,
you would see you can't even play the symphony unless you have both parts together!

Unfortunately people aren't taught that the two parts are designed to work together,
to check and balance each other. They are taught to reject, divide fear and compete
with each other, to make themselves "right" and the other group "wrong."

We need both the believers who work on faith,
and the nontheists who acknowledge proven points based on reason.

So both are designed to look at the world in different ways
in order to achieve different effects and goals that the other can't do by themselves.


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## Mudda (Mar 22, 2016)

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You must be a retard as well. Got it. Thanks.


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

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I had a pretty crappy day today thx to religion so I'll be a bit blunt. There is no problem with believing what Jesus thaught, providing you don't let those believes interfere with secular law. The problems start when you start to feel your view of morality is superior then someone elses. Cause the gives you moral permision to look down on ppl who don't feel like you do. Wich in turn gives you the moral permission to want to impose your view on other ppl; Wich in turn gives you the moral permission to kill those who don't want to adhere to your view. Point in case the attack on the planned parenthood hospital a few months back. Their view on moral right gave them permission to kill ppl. Even more they felt it a moral obligation. If that's not a downside to believing in Jesus and by extention religion I don't know what is. And it all started because they felt their interpretation of the word of god surpassed the word of man.


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## ChrisL (Mar 22, 2016)

I've found that talking with most people who claim to be religious, they are really nothing more than hypocritical assholes.  A lot of times they seem to be suffering from some type of personality disorder or mental illness, insecurity issues, etc.  There always seems to be some kind of "abnormality" with them.  

If you want to worship a god or gods, I don't really care, just keep it to yourself.  Don't try to change our laws to jive with your silly outrageous belief system.  We are a country where everyone is treated equally, regardless of the hatred hiding in the hearts of the so-called "religious" people.


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## ChrisL (Mar 22, 2016)

I remember being at my aunt's wedding anniversary party (which she had held at her church), and I was standing outside talking to a few friends outside along with some "church lady" (a lady who worked at the church - to what capacity, I don't know, but she worked there doing something).  Anyhow, we were talking about pollution, etc., and an oil spill that had happened recently, and this woman actually said that we shouldn't worry about such things because "god will take care of it."    I couldn't believe my ears!  Ignorance at it's finest!


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> I've found that talking with most people who claim to be religious, they are really nothing more than hypocritical assholes.  A lot of times they seem to be suffering from some type of personality disorder or mental illness, insecurity issues, etc.  There always seems to be some kind of "abnormality" with them.
> 
> If you want to worship a god or gods, I don't really care, just keep it to yourself.  Don't try to change our laws to jive with your silly outrageous belief system.  We are a country where everyone is treated equally, regardless of the hatred hiding in the hearts of the so-called "religious" people.


I'm not American myself, my wife and kid are though. I'm Belgian if you'd believe it. Pretty ironic since I'm arguing religion here. And here the assholes make my point of morality in the most dramatic fashion.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 22, 2016)

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Belgium just got another taste of your moral relativism.


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

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weathermann if you suggest that religion had no part in this your a bigger asshole then i thaught. It is like I stated only a religious person would be able to think, killing inocent ppl and yourself makes you some kind of hero. Just like that crazy shooter in that planned parenthood clinic thaught he was serving your precious Jesus.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 22, 2016)

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So you lump Christianity and Islam together as being morally equivalent.
You're delusional.


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

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secular laws condemn this kind of behaviour, Religious text apperently leave enough room for interpretatation to make this kind of thing possible.


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

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that planned parenthood guy was christian. It gave him the moral excuse to do what he did.


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## Weatherman2020 (Mar 22, 2016)

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Oh, so now we are back to finding individuals in history who prove the other 50 billion are murderers/
You're just an ignoramus, have a good day.


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## saveliberty (Mar 22, 2016)

I never asked you why you don't believe, so there's that.


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

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I can equate quite a few more,or are you really gonna say that an enormous amount of ppl have not been killed in the name of cristianity? Btw you stated that if the German ppl would have not killed the jews if they would have followed the christian way. What do you think the root of all antisemetism is. The belief that jews killed Jesus and should be punished for that deed. Gettos and wholesale slaughter aren't an invention of the NAZI's. They just took it up a notch. Germany didn't slaugther jews despite their Christianity they slaughtered them because of it.


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## saveliberty (Mar 22, 2016)

forkup said:


> I can equate quite a few more,or are you really gonna say that an enormous amount of ppl have not been killed in the name of cristianity? Btw you stated that if the German ppl would have not killed the jews of they would have followed the christian way. What do you think the root of all antisemetism is. The belief that jews killed Jesus and should be punised for that deed. Gettos and wholesale slaughter aren't an invention of the NAZI's. They just took it up a notch. Germany didn't slaugther jews despite their Christianity they slaughtered them because of it.



Moral and intellectual high ground are yours forkup, good luck with achieving eternal life on your own.


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

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Oh and btw just so I call you on your own hypocrity. You get all up in arms when I dare suggest that Christians have Extremists just like Muslims.Because you feel Muslims are nothing like Christians. They believe in Sharia law and you believe that Gods word goes before mans, big difference right? Neither did you have a problem calling me equatable with Poll Pot, Timothy Mcveigh,Charles Manson and Hitler yesterday. For the record and I've stated this before, believing is not a problem as long as you observe secular law first.


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## forkup (Mar 22, 2016)

saveliberty said:


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> > I can equate quite a few more,or are you really gonna say that an enormous amount of ppl have not been killed in the name of cristianity? Btw you stated that if the German ppl would have not killed the jews of they would have followed the christian way. What do you think the root of all antisemetism is. The belief that jews killed Jesus and should be punised for that deed. Gettos and wholesale slaughter aren't an invention of the NAZI's. They just took it up a notch. Germany didn't slaugther jews despite their Christianity they slaughtered them because of it.
> ...


Since I don't believe in eternal life I'm not worried.  And as far as my morals go I can only live the best life I can. There is no second chance so I better get it right on my first try,right?


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## ChrisL (Mar 22, 2016)

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> > forkup said:
> ...



Of course they have, and all religions are basically the same.  Christians in our country for the most part are more "moderate" but that's because they CANNOT force their views upon the rest of us who don't follow their beliefs.  Look at places like Africa where the Christians and Muslims are pretty much the same.  They slaughter each other all the time, over a fairy tale.  Unbelievable.


----------



## BreezeWood (Mar 22, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Now back to my original question from days ago - what's the downside to believing in Jesus?



_*
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".*_


not that Jesus ever said those words but the risk is throughout the bible for anyone to believe the fallacies that distort the Spirits path to accomplish Admission to the Everlasting.

.


----------



## emilynghiem (Mar 22, 2016)

Mudda said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Dear Mudda what is so retarded about anything I said?
If we approach human social conflicts as we do math or science,
we can isolate and resolve where contradictions are coming from.

We just have to have patience and commitment to work it through,
just like finding solutions in other fields, like science and medicine.
If one thing doesn't fix it, then there must be a deeper cause or a better solution. so by trial and error we can eventually fix all the problems that can be prevented.

Can you tell me what is so "retarded" about that?
Most people who get what I'm saying would tell me
I'm far ahead of most people. I'm ready to work together
to fix problems, but most people are still fearful, angry, or too distressed and just  not ready to jump into solutions where everyone works in teams to solve the world's problems.

I think the people organizing TED conferences are ready for solutions.
The people making things happen in groups they organize online.

What is wrong with working smarter?
Instead of wasting resources bullying and undercutting others,
why not invest our time, energy, focus and resources
directly into building sustainable solutions?

How is that retarded Mudda 
If anything maybe humanity is a bit socially retarded
if we are still struggling to figure out how to
best use our resources.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 23, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > emilynghiem said:
> ...


Bossy is a blowhard (like you) and a fucking moron. Anyone who can't see that has big problems. Like you.


----------



## ChrisL (Mar 23, 2016)

Mudda said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Emily is very smart, kind and funny.  She just over analyzes things sometimes.


----------



## Boss (Mar 23, 2016)

Mudda said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You're butt-hurt because I make you look foolish on every topic.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 23, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > emilynghiem said:
> ...


I bet she dribbles on herself as well.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 23, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > emilynghiem said:
> ...


You still never showed any proof for your electricity god. I'm still waiting...


----------



## Dhara (Mar 23, 2016)

John 14:6

The Way, the Truth, and the Life

Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."…

That phrase means different things to different believers.

The meaning that makes the most sense to me is that "The Christ", which id  consciousness inseparable from the divine) is the way, (the path of practice) the truth, (how things truly are)  and the life  (the living presence of "God" moment to moment.)


----------



## Mudda (Mar 23, 2016)

Dhara said:


> John 14:6
> 
> The Way, the Truth, and the Life
> 
> ...


So that's why you don't believe in god? Or are you just lost?


----------



## Dhara (Mar 23, 2016)

It's a response to breezewood's post.


----------



## BreezeWood (Mar 23, 2016)

Dhara said:


> John 14:6
> 
> The Way, the Truth, and the Life
> 
> ...


.


Dhara said:


> which id consciousness inseparable from the divine) is the way,



I'm not sure why you would chose the word inseparable, it coincides with my objection that everyone's Spirit is of their own making that should by its own merit be rewarded rather than relying on another's.

_*
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".*_


the "me" appears anything but generic in the setting it is placed in ... the bible goes to far in demanding obedience to _written text_ there was no physical foundation provided for by its participants verifying authenticity.

.


----------



## ChrisL (Mar 23, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



What do you have against Emily?  Even if I might not agree with her, she has been very civil.  I happen to like Emily.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 23, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Anyone who anyone who thinks that bossy has even one milligram of sense must be a retard. Plus, she's a massive blowhard.


----------



## emilynghiem (Mar 24, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...





Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Dear Mudda 
You can see demonstrations of how NATURE works
by looking into Spiritual Healing and getting a grasp of the process.

The more we forgive, we open our minds bodies and relations to HEALING
and healthy flow of energy.  
The more we refuse to forgive we obstruct the natural process
and connections with NEGATIVE blockages.
and this allows conflicts, disease, abuse and additions to escalate.

When you see the 'cause and effect' of both the
* negative actions reaping negative consequences
* positive actions reaping positive consequences
then you can see GOD or NATURE at work.

This is the "proof' i would offer to demonstrate
that whatever you call God's laws, or the laws of science or nature,
these work UNIVERSALLY for all people regardless of faith or no faith.

The process works the same.
So this is consistent with both 
believers who relate to God as PERSONAL spiritual and
secular nontheists who see universal laws as IMPERSONAL.

The laws hold true regardless if people take a theistic or nontheistic approach
to framing it, seeing and saying these things.

the underlying LAWS and spiritual/natural process are still the same,
independent of what religious or scientific language we might use to DESCRIBE
those laws and processes going on naturally.


----------



## Mudda (Mar 24, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Good grief, I can smell the pachouli from here. Should I rub some crystals as well?


----------



## Bonzi (Mar 24, 2016)

I either believe in God (the Christian God) or nothing.

All that other paranormal, astrological and magic mumbo jumbo is for morons


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## Militants (Mar 24, 2016)

God doesn't help me so I am atheist.


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## Mudda (Mar 24, 2016)

Bonzi said:


> *I either believe in God (the Christian God) or nothing.*
> 
> All that other paranormal, astrological and magic mumbo jumbo is for morons


So you don't even know what you believe?


----------



## Militants (Mar 24, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > *I either believe in God (the Christian God) or nothing.*
> ...



Same like me when God will nothing with me.


----------



## Bonzi (Mar 24, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > *I either believe in God (the Christian God) or nothing.*
> ...



I have believed both.  Believe in nothing and believed in God.  
I just think anything else is crap.


----------



## emilynghiem (Mar 24, 2016)

Bonzi said:


> I either believe in God (the Christian God) or nothing.
> 
> All that other paranormal, astrological and magic mumbo jumbo is for morons


Dear Bonzi
What's wrong with believing in the forces and laws of NATURE.
Why can't that be recognized as coming from the same source as what Christians call GOD.
Jefferson focused on the God of Nature, and Jesus as embodying natural laws and principles universal to all humanity.

Why all this "either/or" politics to divide people over differences and biases that are going to occur anyway.
No two singers in a Choir or musicians in an Orchestra play "exactly the same"
yet they can harmonize.

Why this obsession with making one person wrong to justify making another right.
Why can't all the parts and pieces be right, and still be a little different and not exactly the same?


----------



## Bonzi (Mar 24, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > I either believe in God (the Christian God) or nothing.
> ...



there's nothing wrong with believing anything you want to believe

_*but there is only ONE truth*_


----------



## emilynghiem (Mar 24, 2016)

Militants said:


> God doesn't help me so I am atheist.



Dear Militants
1. If people don't look at the laws and forces in the world as coming from a "personal God"
but relate to laws of science and SECULAR terms for laws, relations and how things work
then I would call that NONTHEISTIC

2. If people are against theists, religions, and the whole organized religious culture they find
fault with, I would call that ANTI Theist or ANTI Theistic.

3. If people are biased against belief in God (not neutral as the nontheists and not
proactively against as the Antitheists) then I would call that bias atheist.

So even if you are not #2 or #3, just the fact that people see things in SECULAR terms
and don't relate to religious symbolism for spiritual concepts, I would identify that
as NONTHEIST which is naturally how people are and is not in reaction to theism
as #2 and #3.  

I am against judging and condemning people who are naturally nontheistic
and secular as the way they think look and talk about the world. That is natural
and there is nothing wrong with someone's natural born culture and way of being.

The same God the Christians worship is defined to be the Author of nature
and all laws and events in life, so this should be compatible with how
nontheists frame the world in terms of observable science and experience.
Nothing wrong with that.

I don't agree with teaching religion in such a biased way as to force people to
justify, defend or apologize for being secular humanity or nontheist in their views.


----------



## emilynghiem (Mar 24, 2016)

Bonzi said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Bonzi said:
> ...



Yes, universal truth by definition would be absolute and all encompassing, and all things
would be contained and consistent with it,

However, there are infinite EXPRESSIONS and perceptions of this one truth,
that are RELATIVE to each circumstance, person, group or cultural/time period in history.

So that is where people use religions to try to symbolize things per group or culture. And the real truth is still greater than any and all of these attempts to describe and contain it.


----------



## emilynghiem (Mar 24, 2016)

Mudda said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Dear Mudda
Maybe if you "rub" on a magic lantern,
a big blue comedian will come back from the dead as a Genie
and make you laugh at something here instead of being so serious.

We could use some comic relief or this will be boring.

Here is a song I wrote making fun of family arguments over
Christianity Buddhism and obeying parental authority.
Will this help:
http://www.houstonprogressive.org
Mamas Don't Let Yer Babies Grow Up to be Buddhas


----------



## Bonzi (Mar 24, 2016)

but people can believe erroneously -


----------



## emilynghiem (Mar 24, 2016)

Bonzi said:


> but people can believe erroneously -


Bonzi and people of the same affiliation can rebuke and correct each other to keep
their fold in line.

The Constitutional principles and process provide for due process and redress of grievances.

The Bible instructs followers how to conduct rebuke and restore relations after a trespass.
(See Matthew 18:15-20 and James 5:16 about establishing truth and restoring/healing good faith relations)

By the same process any person under a given system can be rebuked using that system.
So to correct flawed beliefs in science, scientists use research studies and proof to pinpoint the errors and correct the record.
Math also uses itself to correct miscalculations.


----------



## Militants (Mar 24, 2016)

Only in faith the God do not help me with.

Many beliefs in forum and message color.

One really belief with speaking language.


----------



## Militants (Mar 24, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Maybe if you "rub" on a magic lantern,
> a big blue comedian will come back from the dead as a Genie
> and make you laugh at something here instead of being so serious.
> 
> ...



Mudda is a mouslim with islamic rules. 

No gaysex with other mouslims he will.


----------



## Bonzi (Mar 24, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > but people can believe erroneously -
> ...



There are a lot of basic/non intelligent people in the world
We need to communicate salvation in a way they understand - not like you just explained above......


----------



## Boss (Mar 24, 2016)

Mudda said:


> You still never showed any proof for your electricity god. I'm still waiting...



Oh, but I have shown you... over and over again... you just refuse to accept the evidence. 

Physics is proof of spiritual energy. The paradox is, physical universes cannot create themselves. Something had to "begin" a physical reality and it can't be something physical. The millions of things which go into making a physical universe work, ensuring logic and order as opposed to random chaos... can't be the product of a physical nature that didn't exist before it was created to exist. Something established those parameters. Something set forth the laws and rules of how a physical universe operates. 

Now, if one wants to contradict Newton's laws of motion and reject the laws of thermodynamic entropy, you might can fool yourself into believing the physical universe is eternal and never begins or ends... but then, you've just described God as the Universe.


----------



## BreezeWood (Mar 24, 2016)

Boss said:


> Something had to "begin" a physical reality and it can't be something physical


.have you ever considered they coincide together and are able to be interchangeable ... Spiritual and physical.

_*
Something had to "begin" a physical reality ...*_

the moment of Singularity doesn't fit that bill ?

.


----------



## Boss (Mar 24, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Something had to "begin" a physical reality and it can't be something physical
> ...



Go stick your head back in the glue pot. 

"Singularity" is a theory that physics has a difficult time rationalizing. It completely contradicts, and must therefore ignore, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.  But even when we rationalize the possibility of such a theory as the starting point, something still had to cause physics to happen. It cannot cause itself to happen. 

Everything in our physical universe is math... from the largest black hole to the tiniest part of an atom. The entire function of physical reality is mathematics. But math cannot do itself. It can't develop it's own formulas and calculate itself. Thus, the same is true for a physical reality in a physical universe, it can't create itself.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 25, 2016)

.
typical, how not to respond ...

_*BW: have you ever considered they coincide together and are able to be interchangeable ... Spiritual and physical.*_

_*
*


Boss said:



			"Singularity" is a theory that physics has a difficult time rationalizing. It completely contradicts, and must therefore ignore, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.
		
Click to expand...

*
*_
*Boss: Singularity" is a theory that physics has a difficult time rationalizing.*

sure boss, the transition from water to ice is a real braintwister ... and especially for those that prevail in uncertainty - Bossy, I don't know, did it melt because the temperature went above 32F ????. 

.


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## Militants (Mar 25, 2016)

Swedish God or however who it is are falsewood against me and I do nothing.


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## Boss (Mar 25, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> typical, how not to respond ...
> 
> _*BW: have you ever considered they coincide together and are able to be interchangeable ... Spiritual and physical.*_
> ...



You obviously have no clue what Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is. It has absolutely nothing to do with why compounds and elements take different forms at various temperatures. However, something had to set forth the parameters of how all of it works or it's the most incredible and "miraculous" set of coincidental circumstances one could ever fathom. There are over 40 various constants which must be precisely as they are or a physical universe with stars and planetary bodies can't exist... carbon can't exist, and therefore, carbon-based life can't exist. Nothing in physics dictates these things are as they are because they have to be. 

Back to the Uncertainty Principle... it relies on physics which states eloquently that we can never be certain because nature itself is not certain. Every physical thing is comprised of atoms which have electrons that may or may not be there at any given time, or they occupy two places at the same time. Particles which change to waves when not observed and back to particles when we try to measure them. And a universe comprised of mostly stuff we can't even interact with... dark energy and dark matter, which accounts for about 96% of what's there.. or not there. We are uncertain. So the "Singularity" theories are somehow not bound by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle because to have a Singularity there would have to be certainty in accounting for all atoms and parts of atoms in the entire universe and that's not possible according to physics itself. So how can you justify a Singularity which physics says is impossible? 

To carry this further... the Singularity theory was developed as an explanation for what happened before the proverbial "Big Bang" but it has never had any solid foundation. Once was a time, physicists believed all the matter and energy in the universe was compacted into an infinitesimally small "singularity" and it exploded, giving us a physical universe with time and space along with the many elements... the idea was, the universe would expand to a certain point and then retract back to a singularity and regenerate.... but that theory has now been rendered obsolete. The universe is not only expanding but accelerating in expansion, so it's not slowing down and it can't reverse course if it continues to accelerate... again, physics can't defy physics. 

Physical and spiritual are NOT interchangeable... else there would be no need for both terms. Now, perhaps your monkey brain needs to think in terms of another grunting noise besides "spiritual" so that you can overcome your obvious bias and disdain for organized religions? Okay.... call it something else, I don't care what you name it. It's the force beyond the physical that we can't observe or measure physically with physical science. It does't have to be "created" because "creation" is something that applies to physical things. A molecule of oxygen bonds with two molecules of hydrogen and "creates" water.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 25, 2016)

Boss said:


> The universe is not only expanding but accelerating in expansion, so it's not slowing down and it can't reverse course if it continues to accelerate... again, physics can't defy physics.



as pointed out to you before there is no reversal the trajectory of the expansion will over time return the components to the exact location they are derived from reenacting the compression, save a few straight arrows.




Boss said:


> Physical and spiritual are NOT interchangeable... else there would be no need for both terms.



that's so dumb I can hardly stand it ....


Spirituality is the composition of the Singularity at the moment of inflection.

.


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## Boss (Mar 25, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> as pointed out to you before there is no reversal the trajectory of the expansion will over time return the components to the exact location they are derived from reenacting the compression, save a few straight arrows.



Well... good luck proving that with physics because "trajectory of expansion" contradicts "return to exact location" as matter of fucking logical principle. Compression is the reversal of expansion... you can't expand into compression. So what the fuck are you talking about? 



BreezeWood said:


> that's so dumb I can hardly stand it ....
> 
> 
> Spirituality is the composition of the Singularity at the moment of inflection.



Pull up your big girl panties and understand it because it's not dumb. You may be calling something else "spirituality" ....I really don't know where you're coming from on this... La-La Land, it seems like... but what I am referring to as "spiritual" is the force beyond the physical. It's not a composition of anything because it's not material. If there was a Singularity, it created it. Nothing else could... that's the point. Physical nature cannot create Physical Nature... no matter how hard you try an prove that, you are met with a paradox. Whether or not you consider that "dumb" is beside the point.


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## sharif (Mar 26, 2016)

when U die than realized and plus believe in GOD inshahallah, what ever you like you perform evil or good deeds, have special courage than stop your dead?


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## HUGGY (Mar 26, 2016)

sharif said:


> when U die than realized and plus believe in GOD inshahallah, what ever you like you perform evil or good deeds, have special courage than stop your dead?



This is why you get to reason with smart bombs and hellfire missiles from drones.

Go into the red mist partner.  That is where the truth lies.


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## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)

sharif said:


> when U die than realized and plus believe in GOD inshahallah, what ever you like you perform evil or good deeds, have special courage than stop your dead?



What in the hell does this even mean?  God is nothing more than a fairy tale.  Period.  End of story.


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## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)

It's no more believable than vampires and werewolves.


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## Boss (Mar 26, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> What in the hell does this even mean? *God is nothing more than a fairy tale. Period. End of story.*



Should we accept this on the basis of your proclamation or can we objectively evaluate?

Irrespective of any incarnations of "God" from a religious doctrine, the concept of some power greater than self is certainly evidenced to not be a "fairy tale" by any stretch of the term. It is the basis and foundation for the human spirit and we even invented a word to define the beneficial attribute... *Inspiration.*  As well as a word to define the results of the benefits received... *Blessings.* 

Now... Let's objectively turn the worm here... Let me pose a question for you... How willing would you be to lay down your life so that others might hear how Cinderella met her Prince Charming? I'm guessing, probably not very willing. How much torture and persecution would you be wiling to take in order to tell the story of Jack and the Beanstalk? Again... just a guess... probably not very much. Am I correct? If there were a law that you can be beheaded for reciting anything about Snow White or the Seven Dwarfs, would you be willing to take the risk so that others could hear the story? 

You see, Chris... Belief in God has endured through centuries of men trying to stomp it out of he hearts of their fellow man. It cannot be done. It is ingrained in all of us to believe in something greater than self. Without that, we are no better than the Great Ape. You can certainly believe the various stories surrounding the God of Abraham as told by Abrahamic religions is a bunch of made-up hogwash... that's fine... but the root concept of something greater than self is undeniable and intrinsic to humanity.


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## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > What in the hell does this even mean? *God is nothing more than a fairy tale. Period. End of story.*
> ...



It's just wishful thinking.  People have a hard time dealing with their own mortality.


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## Boss (Mar 26, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> It's just wishful thinking. People have a hard time dealing with their own mortality.



I wonder why Great Apes and other upper primates appear to have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that? In fact, nothing else in living nature seems to grapple with it's own mortality they way humans do. WHY? 

While you are pondering that.... Consider this.... MAYBE it's because you've gotten this backwards and humans grapple with their own mortality because only humans are aware of a spiritual immortality? Would that not make better sense than an anomaly found nowhere else in nature and that you cannot explain in any rational way?


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## forkup (Mar 26, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > It's just wishful thinking. People have a hard time dealing with their own mortality.
> ...


Rationaly speaking, we have more braincapacity. Resulting in not only selfawereness but also makes us the only creature alive that has the capacity to think abstractly. For a lower animal death is part of live and altough some are capable of mourning it doesn't go beyond that. Humans have the need to give it context and when there's no context to be had it'll invent it. Like I stated before. Religion is nothing more the mans desire to have an answer to everything. It's not god, it's insecurity that compells ppl to believe.


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## rcfieldz (Mar 26, 2016)

God is everything. What's not to believe in?


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## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > It's just wishful thinking. People have a hard time dealing with their own mortality.
> ...


----------



## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm sorry, but I find these beliefs to be just crazy.  Lol.  Some humans are needy though, and they need this belief.  Whatever floats yer boat.


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## Likkmee (Mar 26, 2016)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


Because Yahweh doesn't control what goes on here. Humans fucked that plan up day one. It's a "free will" issue taken advantage of to mans detriment.
Don't blame him. Humanity was given a choice. Satan owns this circus, for now.
He actually offered it to Yeshua who said: Nigga PuhLeeez. I don't want this shit. Fuckoff.
Your founding fathers, however, took him up on the deal !
 " I'll give you all the kingdumbz of the earth if you" DEALIO !!! Hence the birth of The Great Satan, Inc.


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## hobelim (Mar 26, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> It's no more believable than vampires and werewolves.



I may be crazy but I have seen with my own eyes bloodsucking creatures of the night suck the life out of unsuspecting people who then become bloodsucking creatures of the night themselves,. I have also seen men who are pillars of the community by day who degenerate into wolves and join the pack every other full moon and conspire to harry the flock under cover of darkness. Not to mention the ghouls and demons and every other foul and loathsome beast and bird preying on the gullible in the wilderness.


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## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)

Yeesh.  Like I said, religiosity attracts the crazies.    Lol.


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## rcfieldz (Mar 26, 2016)

Likkmee posts blasphemy.


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## rcfieldz (Mar 26, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > It's no more believable than vampires and werewolves.
> ...


Ya I like watching Grimm too.  Grimm - NBC.com


----------



## hobelim (Mar 26, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Yeesh.  Like I said, religiosity attracts the crazies.    Lol.




Sure, its all fun and games until everyone loses their minds.

Just be careful whatever you do. If you ever visit a church and someone offers you a cookie and a drink of blood, JUST SAY NO.


----------



## BreezeWood (Mar 26, 2016)

.


Boss said:


> Well... good luck proving that with physics because "trajectory of expansion" contradicts "return to exact location" as matter of fucking logical principle.



from Singularity everything is "traveling" at an angle - after eons, the angle will return the object(s) to its origin - it compresses because all the material is re-colliding back into themselves to point zero - the Boomerang Theory ...



Boss said:


> Compression is the reversal of expansion



it's an enclosed loop.




Boss said:


> If there was a Singularity, it created it. Nothing else could... that's the point. Physical nature cannot create Physical Nature...



Singularity was the state of Physicality where Spirituality determined its purity as ruled by the Almighty.




Boss said:


> Physical nature cannot create Physical Nature



that does not preclude Spiritual and Physical as being interchangeable in many perspectives ... a boulder is not the same as a tree.

I agree loved ones who perish do not communicate with who are living for whatever reason per their existence or the Spirit does not seem capable of separation from its physiology however because those two exist they have undeniable similarities.

.


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## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)




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## Likkmee (Mar 26, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > It's no more believable than vampires and werewolves.
> ...


IRS audit eh ? Been there/dunn didd that.


----------



## ChrisL (Mar 26, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Yeesh.  Like I said, religiosity attracts the crazies.    Lol.
> ...



When I was about 8 years old, I went to Catholic church with my friend and her family (I had slept over), and I went up to get the little bread wafer because I was HUNGRY.  I was baptized a Protestant though, so they were all mortified that I actually ate the stupid disgusting bread wafer.  Lol.  It got all stuck on the roof of my mouth and wasn't very satisfying.    Those things are nasty!


----------



## hobelim (Mar 26, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...




lol....Very strange goings on out there.

What type of mythological creature resembles the person who would claim to be able to turn God into something that doesn't even qualify as a cheap snack food for a mere 10% of your income for life?


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## Militants (Mar 26, 2016)

I've hate God in one Swedish Sportforum when once eating through me because I do nothing and God do nothing. God must project me from one evil from distance.


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## Militants (Mar 26, 2016)

But God do nothing against voices so I must hate God in forum.


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## Militants (Mar 26, 2016)

Or there is nobody of gods even jesus but I am normal justice from start so there must be at least one good person to me and to every singel person how are normal in justice.


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## Militants (Mar 26, 2016)

Maybe Lord have justifice to me even he do nothing against voices.


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## Militants (Mar 26, 2016)

Take suicide both God and Jesus.


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## Boss (Mar 26, 2016)

forkup said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



You are totally wrong. We don't have more brain capacity than a blue whale. Their brains are larger than ours and have more capacity. Other things are capable of abstract thought. For ALL living things... death is a part of life. 

It's irrational to think that humans invent things that work to explain other things.... that's just not the way any rational human mind works and we can demonstrate that... next time you feel afraid, imagine something not real and see if that works to diminish your fears... I bet it doesn't work. You see... there has to first be a belief in something real or that you have faith is real, or else your mind can't use it practically to ward off fear. It's of no use to invent something you know isn't real and expect it to work. 

I hear Atheists make this argument over and over again but it doesn't fly. You can't invent things that aren't real and let them handle what you can't explain. 

And you can say whatever you like about RELIGIONS... If this debate is whether or not any particular human-made Religious belief is true or false, then it's probably a safe bet to say that humans haven't accidentally stumbled upon the one true understanding of God through religions they've created. I am not here to argue for Religions.  The only thing Religions do is prove that humans have strong and passionate spiritual connection to something greater than self.


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## Boss (Mar 26, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> from Singularity everything is "traveling" at an angle - after eons, the angle will return the object(s) to its origin - it compresses because all the material is re-colliding back into themselves to point zero - the Boomerang Theory ...



You are making NO rational or logical sense with your argument. The "boomerang theory" was the Big Bang/Big Crunch ...expanding and contracting universe theory. This is the theory I debunked earlier... the universe is never going to contract if it continues to expand with greater acceleration as it's doing. It'c can't re-collide if it continues to expand. 

Even IF it were to stop accelerating and expanding and did eventually begin to contract, it cannot possibly contract back into a Singularity because of the Uncertainty Principle. So your theory violates laws of physics to even try and happen and if it happens, has to again defy the laws of physics to happen. Now... IF we are going to formulate wild theories which contradict the laws of physics, might as well concoct a theory that a Flying Spaghetti Monster put us here and we should listen to Moses.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 26, 2016)

.


Boss said:


> the universe is never going to contract if it continues to expand with greater acceleration as it's doing. It'c can't re-collide if it continues to expand.



_*
NO CONTRACTION ...*_


Boss, you are not interpreting what I have stated - the expansion, acceleration continues unabated - because the matter is traveling at an "angular" trajectory it will eventually form a loop back to its origin and crash back into the original point of origin, all the original matter at the same time ... it becomes a closed loop. 

the same as a boomerang returns back from where it was originally thrown.

that is the mechanism, Spirituality plays the role of what does and does not constitute the Singularity and is ruled by the Almighty.

.


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## sealybobo (Mar 26, 2016)

Militants said:


> But God do nothing against voices so I must hate God in forum.


Just remember that nuts one of yours. He believes in God. Actually hates it.

See us athiest simply don't believe God(s) exist. See the difference?


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## ChrisL (Mar 27, 2016)

Militants said:


> But God do nothing against voices so I must hate God in forum.



God is not going to help you.  Go talk to a psychiatrist, like I've told you before.


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## ChrisL (Mar 27, 2016)

Happy Easter to all you religious folks!


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## Silhouette (Mar 27, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Happy Easter to all you religious folks!


Why do you feel compelled to mark this day as different than any other to wish "happy" to people you just tried to distance from their God?

Little salt in the wound?  I'll offer you a little irony here.  You should get on your knees and pray that people are wrong about God and Its mandates.  Because if they're right, you're in very big trouble. 

Keep your fingers crossed.  You may be right! (Or you may not be..)


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## ChrisL (Mar 27, 2016)

Silhouette said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Happy Easter to all you religious folks!
> ...



You seem confused.  As per usual.    Lol.


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## ChrisL (Mar 27, 2016)

Easter for me is about getting together with my family and having a nice meal.


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## Militants (Mar 27, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Militants said:
> 
> 
> > But God do nothing against voices so I must hate God in forum.
> ...



God is my voices.


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## ChrisL (Mar 27, 2016)

Militants said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Militants said:
> ...



Go talk to a psychiatrist.  You may have some serious issues.  If you want to get better, you will go see a psychiatrist.  If you refuse to do that, then you need to stop whining around here.


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## Militants (Mar 27, 2016)

My God problem isn't good with my eating treat he will force my food to him of through then he tell liars about America and Nazism.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 27, 2016)

.


Militants said:


> But God do nothing against voices so I must hate God in forum.




The Triumph of Good vs Evil - maybe love will do the job, forget about the Almighty that isn't going to work.

.


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## Boss (Mar 27, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> 
> 
> Boss said:
> ...



You're talking a bunch of gobbledy-goop.  There is no loop, there is no angular trajectory. Even IF we lived in La-La Land and could rationalize your idea which contradicts physics... it STILL cannot happen because to have a Singularity, all particles of matter and energy would have to be accounted for and the laws of physics says that is also not possible. 

So.... in summary.... Your theory itself defies physics and IF your physics-defying theory actually worked, would defy physics yet again.  If these are your theories you may as well believe in God or Flying Spaghetti Monsters... same difference.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 27, 2016)

.


Boss said:


> You're talking a bunch of gobbledy-goop. There is no loop, there is no angular trajectory.



_*
gobbledy-goop*_, sorry boosy it's Easter not Thanksgiving ...


because all the matter returns to its origin in motion crushing itself together everything turns to energy and at reflection explodes again outwardly, the state of purity is accomplished - the same each individual Spirit must accomplish, purity, to separate from their physiology to accomplish Admission to the Everlasting.

among all your other errors of thought boosy such as your entire last post in particular the Boomerang theory is mathematically / physics sound.

.


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## Boss (Mar 27, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> 
> 
> Boss said:
> ...



Again, you are conjuring up a theory which defies physics. It is not mathematically sound, physically sound or logically sound. It sounds remarkably similar to a theory which was popular about 20 years ago and widely debated by people like Stephen Hawking, known as the Big Crunch. In that theory, it was speculated that the universe may operate in a cycle of never-ending expanding and contracting. Like a yo-yo or boomerang. 

Starting with this hypothesis, the theorists figured if they could measure the change in velocity of the expanding universe they could formulate, through physics, an estimated time for when this cycle might come "full circle" and thus, when the end of time would be. With the help of the Hubble telescope, they began compiling data and what they discovered was jaw-dropping. It blew apart the argument of the Big Crunch and even cast doubts on the Big Bang as viable theories. The universe is not only expanding but accelerating in velocity of expansion. 

With all due respect, in light of this information, all bets are off with regard to theories pertaining to cyclical boomerang universe. Science has moved on... we now seek an answer to the question of what is the energy which must be accelerating the expansion of the universe (if Newton was correct)... and we think it has something to do with Dark Matter.  BUT... you are stuck on stupid, clinging to the old theory that Science has already abandoned. This is very common for people who worship at the altar of science. It is hard to accept when your messiah has let you down, I get it.  

Nevertheless, the universe can't ever "contract" or "return to point of origin" because of uncertainty. Heisenberg has never been disproved. Why do you think Walter White adopted the name? ...SAY MY NAME!


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## BreezeWood (Mar 27, 2016)

Boss said:


> it was speculated that the universe may operate in a cycle of never-ending expanding and contracting. Like a yo-yo or boomerang.



you are simply obsessed with believing contraction as the sole means for a cyclical point of origin that is beyond hope - every track meet returns to its origin by running forever forward - Dumb Ass. and you are not intellectual enough to see the difference between angular trajection and compression the former an indisputable loop. a yo-yo has a string on it pulling it back, the boomerang never changes its forward motion - and no there has not been any theorizing on the eternal forward motion of matter angularly returning to its point of origin, our universe.

.


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## Boss (Mar 27, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > it was speculated that the universe may operate in a cycle of never-ending expanding and contracting. Like a yo-yo or boomerang.
> ...



Well when you are running around a track, you are running in a circle. The universe isn't expanding in a circle-- Dumb Ass.







Here's a graphic showing various angles of trajectory and as we see, there is only one example where an object returns to point of origin. That is when the angle of trajectory is 90 degrees and presuming relative gravitational force acting on the object, it will return to point of origin. However, the universe is not acted upon by a relative source of gravity and it's velocity is not slowing down but speeding up. 

So this leads me to wonder just what in the fuck are you talking about? You sound like some kind of astral projection nut yammering a bunch of new age hocus-pocus. The proverbial cherry on top is your last sentence...._ eternal forward motion returning to point of origin..._ it doesn't even make rational or logical sense. First of all... *eternal* forward motion contradicts Newton's three laws of motion. 

AND... we haven't even gotten to this... 




This is mathematics, Breeze.  It's called the Uncertainty Principle. To put this in the most simple of terms that even a moron can understand, for a Singularity to happen.... it HAS to defy mathematics. So even if we entertain your hypothesis of all the matter in the universe somehow defying Newton's laws of motion and accelerating expansion to the point where it mysteriously warps space and time to come back to point of origin... it STILL has to defy mathematics! Of course, if the universe can defy it's own laws of physics, why not math too? I guess that's how you figure it. 

When you publish your formulas let me know so I can be looking for you to win the Nobel Prize... but honestly, I don't think peer review is going to be very kind to you.


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

There is no proof either way of a god creating the universe, so I don't know what you're arguing about so vehemently.    If that's what you want to believe, then you are totally within your right to believe that, but you aren't producing any kind of proof here.


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

Militants said:


> My God problem isn't good with my eating treat he will force my food to him of through then he tell liars about America and Nazism.



I don't know what this means, but if you are hearing voices, then you need to go get some help for that and talk to someone.  They might be able to help you with this problem and give you some relief.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> Here's a graphic showing various angles of trajectory and as we see, there is only one example where an object returns to point of origin.




you are hopeless, your graph does not demonstrate an angular trajectory from a spherical point of origin from Singularity that by its own description would by definition become a closed loop - Dumb Ass.

.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 28, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> There is no proof either way of a god creating the universe, so I don't know what you're arguing about so vehemently.




if that is being generically attributed the creation of the universe is not the same as its characteristics and for that there are examples where one form is superior to others and the direction it is derived from has meaning for why it exists. so if there is not an Almighty there is no reason to believe over time that stewardship could very well evolve and for some already has.

.


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## Militants (Mar 28, 2016)

God doens't learning me Finnish so I cannot speak Finnish.

God only help me with Swedish and then English in forum.


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## Boss (Mar 28, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> There is no proof either way of a god creating the universe, so I don't know what you're arguing about so vehemently.    If that's what you want to believe, then you are totally within your right to believe that, but you aren't producing any kind of proof here.



Well everyone has an opinion but I think it's valid to say that physical nature cannot create physical nature and therefore, something outside physical nature had to create it. You are totally within your rights to believe in magic and demand proof magic didn't happen. Now, I have not argued about "Gods" only a thing I call "spiritual nature" because that is the word we invented to describe the nature outside of physical nature. I guess you could say "metaphysical" if your bias toward religion prohibits you recognizing the word "spiritual" but then I think we are into a semantics argument. In any event, something obviously created physical nature and a physical reality in a physical universe and it couldn't have created itself and it probably wasn't magic.


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## Boss (Mar 28, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a graphic showing various angles of trajectory and as we see, there is only one example where an object returns to point of origin.
> ...



You continue talking about a scientific theory suggested by general relativity which was very popular until about 1991. That is when we discovered something unexpected is happening. The matter in the universe is accelerating in expansion. Today, the universe will expand faster than it expanded yesterday and tomorrow it will expand faster than today. If the forces of gravity are not working against the expansion of matter then a gravitational singularity cannot happen. 

Quantum mechanics suggests that singularities do happen inside black holes but we are unable to observe anything beyond the event horizon so this remains a theory. Some theoretical physicists are skeptical of any singularity because particles of matter cannot be compressed smaller than their wavelength. In terms of explaining origin of the universe, singularity is no longer a viable option. 

Even 25 years ago, when we thought singularity might have been the condition the moment before the Big Bang, there were still many serious questions surrounding that theory because it would defy Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. In order to believe what you are claiming, we must dismiss 25 years of science as well as violating the laws of motion and universal physical principles. If you're going that far, why not just believe in a universe created by God?


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Why not?  Because it's silly, that's why.


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## Boss (Mar 28, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Why not? Because it's silly, that's why.



Well... TO ME... it's just as silly to believe in a theory that defies science and violates the laws of nature. But setting aside deities like "God" there is no escaping the paradox that physical nature could not have created itself.


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Why not? Because it's silly, that's why.
> ...



Sure it could have.  That theory makes more sense than "God did it."  Lol.  They used to attribute storms, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. to the works of "gods" too.  That's been proven wrong.


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## Boss (Mar 28, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



How can physical nature (or anything) create itself? Explain that logic to me? 

They've not proven anything "wrong" they've merely determined what causes those things. It doesn't mean something beyond the physical isn't in control of it.


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Go back to school!  Good grief!


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

BBC Earth - Timeline - The Earth formed from a vast gas and dust cloud


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

First Land Plants and Fungi Changed Earth's Climate, Paving the Way for Explosive Evolution of Land Animals, New Gene Study Suggests — Eberly College of Science


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## Boss (Mar 28, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> BBC Earth - Timeline - The Earth formed from a vast gas and dust cloud



It wasn't until the 90s that scientists answered the question as to how microscopic cosmic dust formed planets. An experiment on the International Space Station using salt crystals confirmed that in the zero-gravity vacuum of space, particles coalesce together due to a very small electromagnetic charge. Now.... there is NOTHING in physics which says this very small electromagnetic charge MUST exist... it just does. It's one of more than 40 variables which must be precisely as they are for a physical universe to exist as we know it. Physics can answer how these things happen or how they work but physics has no explanation for why they happen. 

Okay... so you understand the makeup of our planet, right? Earth is comprised of a crust, a mantle and a molten iron-nickel core. How did it get that way? If we imagine random elements and cosmic dust floating around in space, coalescing together as we've determined through electromagnetic charges, etc. The result is a giant clump of assorted matter that has no crust, mantle or core. So how did we get from that point to where we are? Iron and nickel are the heaviest elements... in order for them to make up our core, the entire mass of our planet (which is a random compilation of all elements) had to undergo a tremendous heat which essentially melted the entire planet. While in a molten state, the lighter elements floated to the top to form our crust, the median elements formed our mantle and the heavier elements of iron and nickel formed our core. Make sense? 

Now the problem is... what caused this great heat that had to be thousands of times hotter than the sun was capable of producing? Why did this heat source not affect any of the other rocky planets in our proximity? You see... it's our molten iron-nickel core which gives us polar magnetism and enables our atmosphere and protects us from cosmic radiation. It's why we're not like Mars. So it's a very important question and one that science cannot answer at this time. There is simply not a rational explanation. 

Then there is the water. How did it get here? Theorists say it came from massive meteor bombardments over time but the planet would have needed to be cool enough to retain the water and not have it evaporate as steam back out into space. Carbon dating confirms the oldest Earth rocks ever discovered are just over 4 billion years old... that makes sense and fits in with our theories of when the planet was formed... BUT... the interesting thing is, we've also discovered these 4 billion year old rocks were formed under water. So now... the water can't both be here and not be here at the same time. 

The point I am trying to make to you is this... We don't know everything. We certainly know very little about the "WHY" aspects.  Science can help us understand the "HOW" aspects of our planet and universe but there remains the "WHY" and we can't answer that with physical science. There is a reason we can't.


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## Boss (Mar 28, 2016)

First Land Plants and Fungi Changed Earth's Climate, Paving the Way for Explosive Evolution of Land Animals, New Gene Study *Suggests* — Eberly College of Science

You do understand that a *"suggestion"* is not a proven scientific fact.... right?


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> First Land Plants and Fungi Changed Earth's Climate, Paving the Way for Explosive Evolution of Land Animals, New Gene Study *Suggests* — Eberly College of Science
> 
> You do understand that a *"suggestion"* is not a proven scientific fact.... right?



Right, because God.  Lol.


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## Boss (Mar 28, 2016)

*How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?*


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> *How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?*



How does a seed turn into a plant?  God?


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## BreezeWood (Mar 28, 2016)

.


Boss said:


> Even 25 years ago, when we thought singularity might have been the condition the moment before the Big Bang, there were still many serious questions surrounding that theory because it would defy Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.




... oh of course and when you are ever able to conduct a discussion based without self biased conclusions give us a ring, otherwise you are an exercise of inexorable futility.

.


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> *How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?*



How does a baby form?  God I suppose?


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## BreezeWood (Mar 28, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > *How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?*
> ...


.
is that the physical or the Spiritual and how are they separable ... would have a lot to do with their origin.

.


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## ChrisL (Mar 28, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Nope, God created everything according to some.  Talk about being stuck in the past and living in denial, eh?


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > *How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?*
> ...



A seed doesn't create itself, does it? 

Again... lay down your hatred for God just a hot second and try to answer my question. 
*How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?*


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> 
> 
> Boss said:
> ...



Oh, of course... and when have you ever conducted a discussion here without your own self-biased conclusions, Breezy?  Hell, most of the time, we can't even understand what the fuck you're saying. Doesn't seem to slow you down one bit... you just keep on bashing on God and yammering about the Almighty and Everlasting, like some kind of droning kook.


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## Hollie (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> *How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?*


How do the gods create themselves?


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Hollie said:


> How do the gods create themselves?



I don't know about Gods. I haven't discussed any Gods. Why are you so obsessed with Gods? Spirit doesn't have to be created. There is nothing to create. Spirit is ethereal and doesn't need or have physical composition. To "create" simply means to bring into physical state of being. The question was, what created physical nature? It exists in a physical state of being therefore it was created. Logic dictates it can't create itself. Do you have an answer to the question or are you planning to throw more of a hissy fit in the floor like a spoiled brat over the God you hate?


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > How do the gods create themselves?
> ...


Once again, do you have any proof that a spirit doesn't need to be created? Or wasn't created?


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Physical nature creates itself all the time. Plants create plants, beings create beings, and so on...


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



What do you mean by "created" ???  How would you define a "created spirit"?


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Nope... you just disproved yourself. Plants create other plants.... Plants do not create themselves.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


"What do you mean by "created" ???"

Buy a fucking dictionary brah.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Then you misunderstood your own question: "*How can physical nature (or anything) create itself?" *Physical nature creates itself over and over again.


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## Militants (Mar 29, 2016)

God or the name are in Islam Allah will terrorists doing suicide kill on other humans.


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## Militants (Mar 29, 2016)

Christian God will not people to doing suicide kill well.


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## ChrisL (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > How do the gods create themselves?
> ...



You can't hate something that you don't believe exists.  Lol.  

Your "spirit" is just a part of your personality.  Unless you are talking about ghosts or something crazy like that . . .


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## BreezeWood (Mar 29, 2016)

.


ChrisL said:


> Your "spirit" is just a part of your personality.











I can agree personality is combined with physical and that Spiritual is separable and distinct among all living beings.

.


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



I've got plenty of them, smart ass. It means to bring something into existence. 
BRING: cause (someone or something) to come to a place.
SOMETHING: a certain undetermined or unspecified thing.
INTO: to the state, condition, or form assumed or brought about.
EXISTENCE: the state or fact of existing; being.

CREATION is a PHYSICAL CONCEPT! 

So what the fuck are you talking about, or do you even know???


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Well no it doesn't, hard head. You're giving examples of nature RE-creating itself. It already exists. Nothing can create itself. Are you really THIS stupid???


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## ChrisL (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



You seem awfully angry for a "spiritual" person.  Lol.


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Oh, but you certainly do display a profound hatred for God. Therefore, by your own admission, you must believe God exists. Lol. 

Okay, so "spirit" and "personality" are the same... tell me... how much does your personality weigh? If we removed your personality from your body (I assume it resides inside your body somewhere) what would it look like? How could we quantify the physical differences between your personality and mine?


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## ChrisL (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



You can't hate something that doesn't exist.    Your "spirit" is part of your personality and comes from your brain activity.  Lol.


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> You seem awfully angry for a "spiritual" person.  Lol.



Why do you think spiritual people can't be angry? Is that part of your hang up with God? Maybe you should talk to God about that?


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## ChrisL (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You seem awfully angry for a "spiritual" person.  Lol.
> ...



I don't believe in a god.


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> You can't hate something that doesn't exist.    Your "spirit" is part of your personality and comes from your brain activity.  Lol.



And I think it's more than brain activity or everyone's personality would be relatively the same. We all have brains, they're all active. Still... you've avoided my questions... how much does your personality weigh? How do we quantify the difference between our personalities in a physical way? List the physical attributes your personality has? --OR--- Are you trying to admit that there can be something beyond the physical?


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



And I think you're either lying or you CAN hate something you don't believe exists.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Do you have any proof that spirits can't be created?


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


So then, what created physical nature and what created the thing that created physical nature? And what created the thing that created the thing that...?
And don't say Dr Seuss.


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Do you have any proof that water isn't wet?


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## ChrisL (Mar 29, 2016)

Can you imagine having to live with a super religious person??  That must be like literal hell.  Lol.


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



Again, dumb ass... Spiritual nature doesn't require creation because creation is physical creation in a physical reality of physical existence. Creation literally means to bring into physical existence. Spiritual things are not physical things... maybe that's why your little brain has a hard time understanding this kind of thing?


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Can you imagine having to live with a super religious person??  That must be like literal hell.  Lol.



I don't think so but that's my opinion. My uncle is a Baptist minister and I lived with him for about a month when my Mom was dying of cancer. I felt it comforting to be around someone who was able to keep us uplifted and strong through that ordeal. He knew some of the best places to eat in Lexington, KY and his wife makes a mean banana pudding. Wasn't anything close to what I imagine hell would be like. Oh... now and then, we'd have to bow our heads and give thanks... but it wasn't a big deal. One thing is for sure, he certainly didn't JUDGE me based on a stereotype.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Holy Deflection Batman! He Has Nothing!


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## ChrisL (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Can you imagine having to live with a super religious person??  That must be like literal hell.  Lol.
> ...



Sorry to hear about mom, but religious people are super annoying to me!


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Again, you don't have any proof that spirits can't be created. Just more speculation. Got it.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Can you imagine having to live with a super religious person??  That must be like literal hell.  Lol.
> ...


So he didn't judge you for being gay?


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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Well it's probably because you hate God. Lol


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## Boss (Mar 29, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Boss said:
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> > Mudda said:
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If spirits are created they aren't spirits they are physical entities.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2016)

Boss said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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You got something to back that up with or is this just more Bossy fartsmoke?


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## BreezeWood (Mar 29, 2016)

.
but the phantom claims to communicate (daily) with his god which could only occur through means of physical properties, the deceased being his example otherwise.

.


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## Militants (Mar 30, 2016)

It must were a almighty to change this life to last time we live how are this time . .


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## Mudda (Mar 30, 2016)

Militants said:


> It must were a almighty to change this life to last time we live how are this time . .


Buddy, do us all a favour and learn English. What you just wrote doesn't mean anything.


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## Militants (Mar 30, 2016)

There must be a almighty God for this life time. I will to live again. You don't understand ?


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## Militants (Mar 30, 2016)

I am atheist even I hopes on almighty God to take ours to next time we living life . .


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## Boss (Mar 30, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> but the phantom claims to communicate (daily) with his god which could only occur through means of physical properties, the deceased being his example otherwise.



It doesn't require anything physical to get in touch with spiritual nature. A willing heart is all you ever need.


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## Hollie (Mar 30, 2016)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > but the phantom claims to communicate (daily) with his god which could only occur through means of physical properties, the deceased being his example otherwise.
> ...


..... and a predisposition for gullibility.

It seems your heavy-handed proselytizing still has not landed any members to the _*Religion of Bossy's Magical Spirit Realms™
*_
Most religions offer a reward for joining and/or punishment for not subscribing. You need a hook. Have you considered offering virgins in the afterlife for joining?

Or, consider growing a beard, buy some sandals and wear a long flowing robe.


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## Dogmaphobe (Mar 30, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Can you imagine having to live with a super religious person??  That must be like literal hell.  Lol.




Oh, come on, now.  

 When we got together the other night, you ended up screaming "Oh God!  Oh God!! OHGODOHGODOHGOD!!" at the top of your lungs.

I didn't find that annoying at all.


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## BreezeWood (Mar 30, 2016)

Boss said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > but the phantom claims to communicate (daily) with his god which could only occur through means of physical properties, the deceased being his example otherwise.
> ...


.
_*It doesn't require anything physical to get in touch with spiritual nature.*_

it's you who keeps referring to your brain cells as how you above all others are able to communicator with "your god" - care to elaborate ... and how your non physical god created the universe that too by cellular neurocepers ?

_*
A willing heart is all you ever need.*_

there you go again, there are neurocepters in the heart ?


you are an odd Spiritualist ...

.


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## Militants (Mar 30, 2016)

My pray to God don't help me so I say go away from my life my voices. I can stop them alone.


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## Militants (Mar 30, 2016)

Jesuits who call me nazi but I am marxist are just a communism spicie. Better were alone than togheter. I am christian also who living alone at least 18 first years then now I want to live alone just like before. I am not Catholic they like to live togheter in religion.


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## Boss (Mar 30, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
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> > BreezeWood said:
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But I am not talking about religions.


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## ChrisL (Mar 30, 2016)

Militants said:


> My pray to God don't help me so I say go away from my life my voices. I can stop them alone.



If you would just talk to a professional about it, you might find that you feel a LOT better.  Just try it.  It can't hurt you and could only help you out.


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## Hollie (Mar 30, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
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> > Boss said:
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You nay not be talking about others' religion but you're certainly talking your religion.


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## Boss (Mar 30, 2016)

Hollie said:


> You nay not be talking about others' religion but you're certainly talking your religion.



I don't have a religion. Sorry! 

_*Religion* is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, mythologies, world views, sacred texts, holy places, ethics, and societal organisation that relate humanity to what an anthropologist has called "an order of existence"._


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## hobelim (Mar 31, 2016)

Militants said:


> My pray to God don't help me so I say go away from my life my voices. I can stop them alone.




A person who hears "voices" is a person with a disintegrated mind. Yes, you alone can stop the voices. You must first accept that the voices come from parts of your own subconscious mind and like any thought that may arise it is up to you to either accept the intrusion or reject it.

To become well you must sort through the clutter of your own mind and clean house. Keep the thoughts that are good, and throw away the worthless thoughts that are causing you distress. Take control of your own thoughts and your own conscious mind. You must decide what to think about and what to ignore, what is true and what is false.

No one can do it for you.


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > You nay not be talking about others' religion but you're certainly talking your religion.
> ...


Ya, this fool worships the electricity god.


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## ChrisL (Apr 3, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Militants said:
> 
> 
> > My pray to God don't help me so I say go away from my life my voices. I can stop them alone.
> ...



That is certainly not true.  Schizophrenics can find relief from medications to control their symptoms, so he should go see a psychiatrist.  Also, getting to the root of the problem is important.  That is not very easy to do when you are a mentally disturbed person, and your advice could actually put someone (or the poster) in danger.


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## hobelim (Apr 3, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
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> > Militants said:
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Sure medications can be helpful to 'control symptoms' but all the medication in the world cannot deal with the underlying issues of a thought disorder. If you gave anyone enough drugs they could be turned into a zombie but is that really an improvement for the person?

How could me telling someone that they need to excert a force of will to either reject the thoughts that make them uncomfortable and keep the thoughts that are good put anyone in danger when their current state of mental disarray and uncontrolled imagination and incoherent thinking is a very real danger that they are already in?

I told him the 'voices' are coming from his own mind. Was that putting him in danger?

Would a psychiatrist ever tell him that his beliefs about God, voices, demons etc.,  are part of the problem?


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > hobelim said:
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I think he needs to be advised to seek professional help and internet amateurs shouldn't be trying to diagnose or prescribe treatments.


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
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I can appreciate where you are coming from Chris and I understand your point of view. However I am not someone who thinks that only psychiatrists can be helpful to the mentally ill because only they can legally prescribe medication.

I neither diagnosed or prescribed anything other than suggesting that he needs to sort through the clutter in his head in order to take control over his own mind. Was that wrong? Do you think that he doesn't?

You have diagnosed that he is mentally ill but how much is your conclusion based on his garbled sentences? Did you include in your speculations the fact that he is not speaking in his native tongue?

Are you a psychiatrist?


Aside from all of that what psychiatrist would you refer him to that would deal with the root of his problem of disassociating his own thoughts into 'voices' by telling him that it is directly related to religious indoctrination that teaches a person to believe in superstitious delusions and reject rational thought as if was an internal demonic attack from an external disembodied entity effectively setting the mind against itself until it crashes?


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## Dhara (Apr 4, 2016)

Demonic attack?  I don't buy it.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
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Most psychiatrists will do a combination of therapy and meds.  Meds are very good at controlling things like hearing voices and other effects of schizophrenia.  They stabilize the mood.  

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I am a certified medical assistant and I know enough to know that armchair psychiatrists shouldn't be giving advice to the mentally ill.  It could in fact be very dangerous.


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Demonic attack?  I don't buy it.



Seriously?

Is it not true that if any Catholic,  for instance,  who has crisis of faith and begins to doubt whether Jesus was an edible god or not, wouldn't any priest tell them that they are under a demonic attack or being tested by the devil?

If an orthodox Jew was having a crisis of faith doubting whether they could become holy by eating or abstaining from certain food wouldn't they be told that they are battling an evil inclination to rebel against the laws of God?


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...




Almost everyone posting on this board is mentally ill to one degree or another. And  I agree that medication is invaluable to the person who is having an acute episode and freaking out about losing control of their own mind, but if all you have to suggest to an anonymous person in a mostly unknown mental state on a message board is to go see a psychiatrist, you might as well tell them fuck you.

There is always danger associated with revealing the truth. The greatest danger is always for the one who speaks it.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
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Of course that is what you should suggest.  Don't try to be an armchair psychiatrist!  You don't have the knowledge to do that.


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
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> > ChrisL said:
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Speak for yourself. Of course you have no way of knowing what knowledge training or real life experience that I have had in dealing with the mentally ill.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
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Well, why don't you share then?  No reputable psychiatrist would attempt to diagnose or treat a patient based on a couple of postings on the internet.


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Ahem.....What clinical diagnosis did I make or dangerous treatment did I prescribe?


I think you're nuts.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > hobelim said:
> ...



You told the poster that he could control it himself with his own willpower, and anyone with any kind of experience in psychiatry knows that is not the case.  Now just knock the shit off.  You obviously don't know what you're talking about.  This person should be encouraged to seek out professional treatment.


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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> > ChrisL said:
> ...




I told him that he needs to exert a force of will to gain control over his own mind. Whoop di doo.

Do you know of a pill that can accomplish that?

You should take it.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...



I think you're the one who needs to take something, seeing as how upset you seem to be.  The bottom line here, if someone seems to be suffering from a mental illness, it is not your place to try to advise them.  You don't know what you're talking about, correct?  Do you have a degree in psychiatry?


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...




I am not upset about anything. Maybe you are?

You keep accusing me of trying to play the role of a psychiatrist but I have not diagnosed or prescribed anything to any patient.

You are the one who has determined that the poster was so messed up that it was dangerous for me to  to suggest a little self control.

Are you a psychiatrist?


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...



Yes you did though.  You are telling the poster that he can overcome mental illness by "thinking it away."  That is very bad advice.  Just don't do it.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...



Are you a psychiatrist?  I already answered your question.  Did you forget already?


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

armchair psychiatrist
A person who gives advice for mental disorders, emotional disorders, or any other mental illness and has no known background knowledge or psychiatry. More than just advice with no clinical know how.


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## hobelim (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...




LOL... Slow down.... You didn't even offer me a drink.

I reserve personal, confidential, and classified information only for the  people who bother to know me personally.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> > hobelim said:
> ...



What in the world are you talking about?  Obviously you don't have any background in the field of psychiatry.  If you did, you would know that you do not give such advice, and that most mentally ill people cannot "will away" their symptoms.  They have a chemical imbalance in most instances.  That is why they are treated with medications.  

Now, the only thing I said was that you should never give advice, except to try to talk them into seeing a professional.  A professional psychiatrist will learn about the patient's past history, their medical history, traumatizing events they may have suffered, if they are currently or have in the past abused substances.  

You are the one taking things "personally" here.  Just knock it off.


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## Boss (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Yes you did though. You are telling the poster that he can overcome mental illness by "thinking it away." That is very bad advice. Just don't do it.



Mental illness that YOU, "Dr. Chris" have diagnosed. 

There are all kinds of mental illnesses, so there is no set-in-stone answer for how to deal with mental illness. Every case is individual and has it's own set of variables which we don't know... even IF we are trained in psychiatry. Sometimes it takes years of therapy to determine a course of treatment... or to even determine if there is a mental illness. It's impossible to determine this from a few anonymous message board postings. 

Both of you need to shut up and move on. Neither of you are qualified to make the assumptions you've made about someone you have never met. There is no point in arguing page after page about who is right when neither of you are right.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Yes you did though. You are telling the poster that he can overcome mental illness by "thinking it away." That is very bad advice. Just don't do it.
> ...



If a person says they are hearing voices, then the proper course is to advise them to seek professional help.  Are you denying that?


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## Dhara (Apr 4, 2016)

There are spiritual experiences that have the look of psychosis but aren't psychosis.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

You certainly don't tell them that they are capable of "willing away" their symptoms because in most instances, they are suffering from a chemical imbalance and need to be treated by a professional.  I know that, as I DO in fact have some training in the medical field.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Yes you did though. You are telling the poster that he can overcome mental illness by "thinking it away." That is very bad advice. Just don't do it.
> ...



I am right.  If a person expresses symptoms of mental illness, you advise them to seek help.  They can be dangerous to themselves or other people.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm not a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist, but I did take courses in psychiatry.  I know the proper course to take when a person expresses things such as hearing voices or suicidal/homicidal ideations, etc.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

The one thing you NEVER do is advise a person that they can "handle it on their own" and that they don't really "need" psychiatric help.  If ever a person expresses to you that they are hearing voices or they are having suicidal or homicidal thoughts, you immediately advise them to seek the help of a professional.  That is all I've done here.  The other poster is the one who told the poster to "will away" his symptoms.  That is terribly wrong.  He is the one who needs to shut up.  I will continue to encourage the poster to seek out professional help for his symptoms.


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## Boss (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



Yep. I hear voices sometimes. This weekend, I was sitting on a bank fishing and I could hear my Dad's voice. I know he wasn't there, he's been dead for 8 years. But we used to go fishing together all the time and I miss him. I don't think I have a mental illness, I think I just miss my Dad.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



That's not the same as being "plagued" by voices, such as the poster in question was expressing to us.  If someone ever expresses that they are in distress from voices in their head, then you immediately advise them and try to talk them into seeking professional help.  That IS the correct course to take.


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## Dhara (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


So, you think your memories of your dad are "voices in your head"?


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## Boss (Apr 4, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...



No, I have memories of my Dad but this particular weekend, sitting on the bank where we used to fish together, I could hear my Dad's voice. There wasn't anyone else there, I suppose, if there had been, they wouldn't have heard his voice. It's not a big deal to me, I have heard my Mom's voice and my Grandmother's voice before too.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



Again, that is NOT the same thing as a person who is plagued by voices in his head.  It is to the point that it is distressing to the person, and the person I was engaging with was obviously in distress about it.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...



So, now you believe that the dead are talking to you?  Is that what you are saying?


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## Boss (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> So, now you believe that the dead are talking to you? Is that what you are saying?



Their spirits aren't dead because death is physical. Spirits are immortal. I hear their voices at times... I don't know if the voices emanate from their actual spirits or I just miss them.  When my Dad died, I felt my Grandmother's spiritual presence in the room, it comforted me. Often times, when faced with certain dilemmas, I hear 'words of wisdom' from my Dad, my Mom, my Grandmother... again, I have no evidence this comes from their actual spirit but I feel like it does. I don't think I am mentally ill, I think this might actually be common among people who have strong spiritual connection.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > So, now you believe that the dead are talking to you? Is that what you are saying?
> ...



I think you should probably be checked out.


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## Boss (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> I think you should probably be checked out.



Well I don't think I need "checking out" because there's nothing wrong with me. You're a person who rejects your spiritual connection. It's not surprising you find spiritual connections odd and strange. If you nurtured your spiritual connection instead of spending all your time on God threads denouncing a religious belief you hate, then you might come to realize what a powerful thing it is to be spiritually connected. But you're afraid of it because you think that might turn you into a religious zombie or something. 

I would be willing to bet that you have more pent-up and underlying emotional and psychological issues than I do. There is something going on with a person who spends as much time as you do on a message board, renouncing a God you claim to not believe in. Generally, this kind of behavior is consistent with someone who has been hurt by someone else who used morality or religion to judge you or something you did. Your defense mechanism is to attack their beliefs and the source of what you feel like brought you pain and discomfort as a person. Not saying that's the case with you but generally speaking, that is typical.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > I think you should probably be checked out.
> ...



Well, I think it's all in your head.  You have preconceived notions of spirituality.  Of course everyone wishes that their loved ones spoke to them from the "great beyond."  The human brain is an amazing organ.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > So, now you believe that the dead are talking to you? Is that what you are saying?
> ...



I lost my son, my father and grandfather.  Never have any of them "spoken" to me except for in dreams.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

I remember I did have a dream about my son once.  We were in a big ballroom type of room, and I was rollerblading with my two sons.  I accidentally bumped into my son (the one who passed away), and I was holding him and crying and saying, "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry," and he said to me "Is that all you can ever say?"  I really do believe that is just our own "emotions" coming through and our brain can play tricks on us.


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## ChrisL (Apr 4, 2016)

Very upsetting just remembering that dream.  When I woke up, it seemed SO real, but I know better.  That is my own guilt over my son's passing coming through, the fact that I couldn't do anything to help him.


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## Boss (Apr 4, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Well, I think it's all in your head. You have preconceived notions of spirituality.



No, I have literal experiences with spirituality. I actually realize a positive difference in my life through spiritual connection. I didn't always have it because I didn't nurture it and it's not supported by some religious dogma. So I can compare what life was like before and after and it's much better now. For me, it helps me to cope with life... changes I need to make, adversities I have to face, dealing with loved ones, coping with loss, overcoming hardships, etc.  I can't imagine life without my spiritual connection but I recall what life was like before and it wasn't very pretty. 

Now you don't have to believe any of this. I don't need to "convert" you or "win your soul" or anything like that. I share this with you because I want you to understand that I once was just like you. I didn't believe the "nonsense" about God and religion. I think what changed me was a spiritual experience when I almost lost my life. I realized by every account, I should be dead. Something prevented that from being a reality and it made me think about my purpose in life. I don't expect you to understand that, it's something that happened with me personally, but I want you to know it's not in my head.


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## Mudda (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I think it's all in your head. You have preconceived notions of spirituality.
> ...


I was almost killed TWICE. No magical connections though, I wonder why that is? Because you're delusional and only come here because everyone you know for real already knows you're kookoo for cocoa puffs. I am glad though that your delusions help you through being a loser in life.


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## hobelim (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> The one thing you NEVER do is advise a person that they can "handle it on their own" and that they don't really "need" psychiatric help.  If ever a person expresses to you that they are hearing voices or they are having suicidal or homicidal thoughts, you immediately advise them to seek the help of a professional.  That is all I've done here.  The other poster is the one who told the poster to "will away" his symptoms.  That is terribly wrong.  He is the one who needs to shut up.  I will continue to encourage the poster to seek out professional help for his symptoms.




LOL... engaging another poster who said something vague about voices and telling them that they are ultimately responsible for the condition of their own mind is not something 'terribly wrong', its the truth.

There have been many people on this board who have admitted the same thing that I have spoken to and suggested that they need to 'clean house'. Was that terribly wrong too? I have engaged homeless people who are hearing voices that had been released from psychiatric hospitals onto the streets.

Should I have just ignored them too or told them to just seek psychiatric help? Some help....

If he really was a danger to himself and others and if he really was suicidal and homicidal, how could anyone determine that without engaging him further in dialogue to find out whether you need to call the men in the white coats or homeland security or no one?

Maybe he is as harmless as saint Brad? Maybe he isn't.

Do you really think that someone who is most likely already intimately acquainted with the psychiatric profession going to listen to you telling them to seek psychiatric help?


You might as well tell them to go and see a priest or fuck you.








.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > The one thing you NEVER do is advise a person that they can "handle it on their own" and that they don't really "need" psychiatric help.  If ever a person expresses to you that they are hearing voices or they are having suicidal or homicidal thoughts, you immediately advise them to seek the help of a professional.  That is all I've done here.  The other poster is the one who told the poster to "will away" his symptoms.  That is terribly wrong.  He is the one who needs to shut up.  I will continue to encourage the poster to seek out professional help for his symptoms.
> ...



What are you babbling about now?  The bottom line is, when someone tells you they are plagued by voices, you advise them to seek professional help and don't act like an armchair psychiatrist because it is dangerous.  Do you understand?


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## Dhara (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I think it's all in your head. You have preconceived notions of spirituality.
> ...


If I understand what you are saying, it's that after we die "spirits" remain behind in the form of the personalities of the deceased and you can hear their voices in your mind.  Yes?  If you mean thoughts, or memories of what a loved one says or would have said, that makes sense to me.  If what you're saying is the deceased are intact as living communicable entities, I would disagree.  But I don't think it's harmful for you to believe what you believe.

As a Buddhist, we only think qualities and karma follow you into future lives.  NOT fully intact personalities or appearances from this life.


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## Militants (Apr 5, 2016)

Near my voices never stop I will hate Swedish God and maybe to Christ how never stop on my voices far away they alert against me.


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## Militants (Apr 5, 2016)

Finnish God Jumalauta have a stomach with stomach feelings and Christians of Catholics and Ortodox to when they are stupidfy against me. 

Why not the Swedish to have stomach feelings ????


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## Dhara (Apr 5, 2016)

Militants said:


> Near my voices never stop I will hate Swedish God and maybe to Christ how never stop on my voices far away they alert against me.


Has anyone ever suggested medication?  I'm not being flip here.  Sometimes it helps.


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## Militants (Apr 5, 2016)

Voices in my life are them how never stop fight far away. So the medicines can't help me.


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## Dhara (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Very upsetting just remembering that dream.  When I woke up, it seemed SO real, but I know better.  That is my own guilt over my son's passing coming through, the fact that I couldn't do anything to help him.


I'm sooo sorry to hear that you lost your son.  That is devastating.  The only good to come from such a tragedy is the way suffering opens the heart to the suffering of others.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I think it's all in your head. You have preconceived notions of spirituality.
> ...



Okay that's fine.  We are never going to come to an agreement.  You believe in things that I simply do not believe in.  My remark about you getting "checked out" was just a joke.  I was just teasing you a little bit.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Militants said:


> Voices in my life are them how never stop fight far away. So the medicines can't help me.



Yes they can help you.  Go see a doctor and talk to a doctor about these issues.  They can help you.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

Dhara said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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This is complicated to explain to someone who doesn't understand spiritual nature. Personalities are strongly influenced by spirit but that isn't what the spirit is. The spirit is also not a "living communicable entity" because those things are all physical. Thoughts and memory are recalls from our physical brain. Perhaps the best way to describe the spirit is as something like a thought or memory, in that it's not a physical thing, but rather than a product of our brain, is on a different frequency than our physical one... another dimension.

The spiritual exists in a spiritual sense just as the physical exists in a physical sense. There is no physical spirit just as no spirit is physical. Some people make the error of dismissing spiritual nature on the basis of no physical evidence. They demand some kind of physical proof of spiritual nature and if there were ever any physical proof, the spiritual thing would forever cease to be spiritual. 

Now, let's loop this back in to physics so you can possibly comprehend the point I'm making... We know that dark matter and dark energy exist because of mathematics. It makes up 96% of our universe, yet we cannot directly interact with it. The only way we know it exists is through mathematics. Would it make sense to claim it doesn't exist because we can't observe, measure or test it? No, because math doesn't lie... it has to be there, regardless of our ability to observe it directly.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> Dhara said:
> 
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Oh, so now it's "nobody would understand" "I'm special."  Lol.  You have a belief that others may or may not share.  That is all.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
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Why are you dishonestly putting quote marks around things I never said? What is it about this topic that compels you to lie and mislead others If I actually thought no one could understand and I was special, there is no purpose for me to even be in this thread.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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That is basically what you are saying here, no?  That you had some kind of experience and that allows you to be "spiritual."  Puhleese.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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> > Boss said:
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Your beliefs are nothing more than "your" beliefs.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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No, that was not what I said. Every human has the ability to be spiritually connected. I simply relayed how I personally became spiritually enlightened. I'm sure I am not alone but i made no claim that was the only way or that it was foolproof.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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And your beliefs are nothing more than "your" beliefs... see how that works?


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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That is nothing but your own belief.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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My beliefs at least are based on logic and evidence.  Your beliefs are based on superstition and "beliefs."


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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No, your beliefs are not based on logic or evidence. My beliefs are based on my experience.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


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And you are obviously not very logical.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

You are extremely emotive and base your beliefs upon your "feelings."


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I am very logical. For instance, something logically created physical nature. It cannot come into existence otherwise. Obviously, it does exist and logically, couldn't have created itself.

For as far back as we have any evidence of human civilization, humans have been spiritually connected to something greater than self. We even invented a word to describe the benefit of human spirituality... inspiration. Our inspiration separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. That's no fluke.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> You are extremely emotive and base your beliefs upon your "feelings."



I am not emotive and my beliefs are based on experience.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > You are extremely emotive and base your beliefs upon your "feelings."
> ...



Yes you are, very much so.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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To explain death which they found very distressing and didn't understand.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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We should find similar distress among other upper primates... we don't. 
The reason we have distress is because we are aware of something greater than self... something beyond physiology. If we weren't aware of immortality we wouldn't fear mortality.

It has nothing to do with not understanding death. We fully understand death the same as other upper primates who even morn death sometimes. We don't understand what happens to our immortal spirits after death. This is the very thing that prompted man to invent religions.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


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No we should not.  They are not nearly as capable as the intellect as people.  Spirits and all that are just wishful thinking and sometimes your brain playing tricks on you.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Apes are not capable of contemplating their OWN deaths.  They don't realize they are going to die.  When a member of their group dies, they probably feel a little fleeting sadness (maybe even longer than fleeting), but they don't sit around and contemplate death and dying like human beings do.  To suggest such is just beyond silly.


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## hobelim (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Apes are not capable of contemplating their OWN deaths.  They don't realize they are going to die.  When a member of their group dies, they probably feel a little fleeting sadness (maybe even longer than fleeting), but they don't sit around and contemplate death and dying like human beings do.  To suggest such is just beyond silly.




You know what apes think and feel and are incapable of thinking and feeling?

Thats very impressive... LOL....


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Apes are not capable of contemplating their OWN deaths.  They don't realize they are going to die.  When a member of their group dies, they probably feel a little fleeting sadness (maybe even longer than fleeting), but they don't sit around and contemplate death and dying like human beings do.  To suggest such is just beyond silly.
> ...



I know that they are not cognitive like human beings when it comes to things like dying.  Do you think they are?


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

In fact, human beings are the THE smartest animals.  Other animals are not capable of logic and reasoning like human beings.  Are you saying that apes are like humans?  Lol.  Of course they aren't.  These are all just excuses you are making for your religious beliefs.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Go ahead and believe in your gods.  What the hell do I care?  I'll just go on thinking you are silly and brainwashed.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

Well no it's not and you haven't proven that with any evidence. 

If, as you claim, we are "distressed about death" and we have superior intellect.... things with less superior intellect should be even more distressed because they would understand it even less. But we don't see apes and chimps having nervous breakdowns because they know they will die one day. Your hypothesis is without support.

It's also not "wishful thinking" or it wouldn't exist in a creature of our superior intellect. What fundamental purpose does a wishful thought serve? If there were no intrinsic value we would have discarded the behavior as useless. Any living organism we have ever studied has behavioral attributes for a reason. Trivial and meaningless behavior doesn't exist as a fundamental attribute of anything. So now, this hypothesis of yours, which you've failed to support with logic or science, actually contradicts what we observe in nature.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

http://www.brainfacts.org/About-Neu...uman-brain-differ-from-that-of-other-primates

Humans possess cognitive abilities very different from other creatures, thanks to a number of unusual features of our brains. 

For starters, our brains weigh an average of three pounds, which is enormous for an animal of our body size. By comparison, chimpanzees, our closest living relatives, have brains that are one-third the size of our own, although they are very similar to us in body size. Most of this brain-size difference reflects the evolutionary expansion of the association cortex, a group of regions that supports such sophisticated cognitive functions as language, self-awareness, and problem solving.

The size of the human association cortex is only part of what makes this region unusual in humans. In addition to having more neurons in the association cortex, brain imaging studies comparing the brains of humans to other primates show humans have a greater number of fibers connecting the brain regions involved in such human-specialized functions as language, tool making, reasoning, and social cognition. Understanding the evolution of these connections in the human brain is a major focus of my laboratory.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> Well no it's not and you haven't proven that with any evidence.
> 
> If, as you claim, we are "distressed about death" and we have superior intellect.... things with less superior intellect should be even more distressed because they would understand it even less. But we don't see apes and chimps having nervous breakdowns because they know they will die one day. Your hypothesis is without support.
> 
> It's also not "wishful thinking" or it wouldn't exist in a creature of our superior intellect. What fundamental purpose does a wishful thought serve? If there were no intrinsic value we would have discarded the behavior as useless. Any living organism we have ever studied has behavioral attributes for a reason. Trivial and meaningless behavior doesn't exist as a fundamental attribute of anything. So now, this hypothesis of yours, which you've failed to support with logic or science, actually contradicts what we observe in nature.



My gosh, please tell me you aren't really this dumb and brainwashed.  I have to leave this thread before I start being mean.  Lol.


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Go ahead and believe in your gods.  What the hell do I care?  I'll just go on thinking you are silly and brainwashed.



You obviously care quite a  bit, judging by the inordinate amount of time you're spending here on two God threads, arguing as fast as your fingers can type for countless hours, days on end. 

It's funny how your reasoning always boils down to people being silly and brainwashed. You can't support your arguments, you can't offer any credible evidence to support your claims, and you just continue to repeat the same shit over and over as you bash and trash those who disagree. You've stopped even trying to pretend to be objective.


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead and believe in your gods.  What the hell do I care?  I'll just go on thinking you are silly and brainwashed.
> ...



I type for a living.  I am a fast typist.  You are silly.  To me anyways.  See ya!


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## ChrisL (Apr 5, 2016)

Like I told the other poster, if you want to believe in all this garbage, go ahead.  What do I care?


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> http://www.brainfacts.org/About-Neu...uman-brain-differ-from-that-of-other-primates
> 
> Humans possess cognitive abilities very different from other creatures, thanks to a number of unusual features of our brains.
> 
> ...



And yet... with our superior brains... we remain spiritual creatures who believe in something greater than self. Amazing, isn't it?


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Like I told the other poster, if you want to believe in all this garbage, go ahead.  What do I care?


AGAIN... It's OBVIOUS how much you care, dear!


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## Boss (Apr 5, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Well no it's not and you haven't proven that with any evidence.
> ...



You're too late, you've already been mean and insulting to me. I've not been like that to you. I've addressed your points with logic, science ans reasoning. I've demonstrated how your hypothesis fails and it pissed you off so you became hostile and insulting. It's too late to take that back now.


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Where does logic and science support notions of magical spirit realms?


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.brainfacts.org/About-Neu...uman-brain-differ-from-that-of-other-primates
> ...


We are humble and afraid of death and even curious slightly intelligent but not always logical.

It's just wild speculation you have to admit that. Our ancient ancestors came up with the idea there must be a God. 7000 years ago we started claiming to have met it. But the reality is we're right back where we were 7001 years ago.

1% separates us and the monkeys we came from. I wonder if a species on another planet that is 1% smarter than us still believes. I'm sure they debate a generic God but I wonder if most of them believe or don't. And I wonder if organized religions ruled them when they were less evolved


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

As we get smarter we get less religious/superstitious, not more. 

Best line I ever heard on Gilligan island. The professor said, "the less modern the tribe the more superstitious.


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
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It's not wild speculation and we didn't come up with the idea. You've never been able to support that claim and it's because it can't be supported. If we came up with some wild speculative idea that had no merit it would have died out like any other wild speculative idea we've come up with. But 90% of the species remains spiritual. Different religions rise and fall but human spirituality remains consistent throughout history. 

1% separates us from the monkeys but they don't grapple with their own mortality because they have no concept of immortality... we do.


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> As we get smarter we get less religious/superstitious, not more.
> 
> Best line I ever heard on Gilligan island. The professor said, "the less modern the tribe the more superstitious.



Nice to know you get your philosophy from the professor on Gilligan's Island.


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
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> 
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What the hell are "spirit realms"?


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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Yea because 7000 years ago they claimed God visited and people still believe that myth. 

And yes God is speculative. No proof. Just because all great apes (us) believe it is no evidence. God is 100% speculation.

Remember the Greek gods? Wild speculation, ?


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## ChrisL (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.brainfacts.org/About-Neu...uman-brain-differ-from-that-of-other-primates
> ...



Not at all if you understand how the brain works.


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## ChrisL (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
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Well, that's why I've been trying to avoid you.  I think you're basically a nice person, but a confused person.  I don't really want to be mean to you, but you annoy the crap out of me.  Lol.


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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Human spirituality isn't speculative. It's an undeniable fact of human behavior. It goes back much further than 7k years.


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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> 
> > ChrisL said:
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Well, our brains cause our species to have intrinsic spiritual awareness.


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Boss said:
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I'm sorry you're annoyed by me refuting your arguments with logic and science.


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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> > Boss said:
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Spirituality doesn't prove a God exists sorry nice try. It proves humans are spiritual. We believe in ghosts devils demons angels and gods. So what?

At one time we speculated lots of gods today we speculate 1


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
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Wishful thinking eliviates the stress of not knowing what happens when we die. We still don't know how we got here so the God hypothesis hasn't gone away. Plus we are such a new species. Give it time.

And lesser animals aren't smart enough to imagine a God but a more evolved species would recognize God is an invention we made up.

You are proof we haven't God superior intellect. Seems more like ignorant arrogance to me.

Let's say humans have been here for 1 million years. Dinosaurs and trilobites were here for billions of years before us. God didn't care about their souls but he cares about ours? Nonsense


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
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You're right, it doesn't prove God... it is what it is. We are spiritual. We have a connection with something greater than self. It is through this we form beliefs in all the things you mention.  We certainly do not all worship the same God. You can't say what amount of that is true or not true, that's just a much of a speculation. The one thing you can't deny is that humans are spiritual and always have been.

I don't know why you always pat yourself on the back for the point that someone hasn't proven God... it's almost like your tiny little mind fully expects someone to one day prove God to you or something. When did I claim that I proved God? All I have proof of is that humans are spiritually connected to something greater than self. You're free to draw conclusions on what that is.


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## Boss (Apr 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
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This post is so full of ignorance, stupidity and speculation that I don't even know how to address it all. Part of it has already been addressed, ad nauseum. We didn't "invent" a meaningless behavioral attribute which is intrinsic to our species... that simply flies in the face of nature and makes NO logical sense. And where the hell do you get off telling us how a more evolved species would think?  You haven't even evolved to a functional human yet... you're still like the monkeys, clueless about your spirituality.


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> Well no it's not and you haven't proven that with any evidence.
> 
> If, as you claim, we are "distressed about death" and we have superior intellect.... things with less superior intellect should be even more distressed because they would understand it even less. But we don't see apes and chimps having nervous breakdowns because they know they will die one day. Your hypothesis is without support.
> 
> It's also not "wishful thinking" or it wouldn't exist in a creature of our superior intellect. What fundamental purpose does a wishful thought serve? If there were no intrinsic value we would have discarded the behavior as useless. Any living organism we have ever studied has behavioral attributes for a reason. Trivial and meaningless behavior doesn't exist as a fundamental attribute of anything. So now, this hypothesis of yours, which you've failed to support with logic or science, actually contradicts what we observe in nature.


Lots of reasons why we continue the wishful thinking. Plus we are such a young species. Give it time. As we evolve we become less spiritual


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> Well no it's not and you haven't proven that with any evidence.
> 
> If, as you claim, we are "distressed about death" and we have superior intellect.... things with less superior intellect should be even more distressed because they would understand it even less. But we don't see apes and chimps having nervous breakdowns because they know they will die one day. Your hypothesis is without support.
> 
> It's also not "wishful thinking" or it wouldn't exist in a creature of our superior intellect. What fundamental purpose does a wishful thought serve? If there were no intrinsic value we would have discarded the behavior as useless. Any living organism we have ever studied has behavioral attributes for a reason. Trivial and meaningless behavior doesn't exist as a fundamental attribute of anything. So now, this hypothesis of yours, which you've failed to support with logic or science, actually contradicts what we observe in nature.


Lots of reasons why we continue the wishful thinking. Plus we are such a young species. Give it time. As we evolve we become less spiritual


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## Militants (Apr 6, 2016)

I will never Christ and if Swedish God exist he does not help me.


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead and believe in your gods.  What the hell do I care?  I'll just go on thinking you are silly and brainwashed.
> ...


Well you think you make these gotcha aha points but they are all fatally flawed. You think because "so far" we've always been spiritual that this proves something. It doesn't.

And of course we believe in "something greater than self" but the fact is you think it's a God and I think it's the universe itself.

You think there is something greater than the universe even though you don't know exactly what it is or what it can do. You believe in the unknown.


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
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It's what you describe as your invention of spiritual nature.


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## Hollie (Apr 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > ChrisL said:
> ...


Bossy confuses fear and superstition as something he calls spirit realms. Fear and superstition has often been used as the method to control and coerce those who are fearful and superstitious.


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Boss said:


> Well no it's not and you haven't proven that with any evidence.
> 
> If, as you claim, we are "distressed about death" and we have superior intellect.... things with less superior intellect should be even more distressed because they would understand it even less. But we don't see apes and chimps having nervous breakdowns because they know they will die one day. Your hypothesis is without support.
> 
> It's also not "wishful thinking" or it wouldn't exist in a creature of our superior intellect. What fundamental purpose does a wishful thought serve? If there were no intrinsic value we would have discarded the behavior as useless. Any living organism we have ever studied has behavioral attributes for a reason. Trivial and meaningless behavior doesn't exist as a fundamental attribute of anything. So now, this hypothesis of yours, which you've failed to support with logic or science, actually contradicts what we observe in nature.


A. You are just smart enough to invent God and at the same time dumb enough to believe it. But not smart enough to see how and why humans made it up.

Your logic isn't logical.

And why can't you see what purpose wishful thinking serves? Ever hear ignorance is bliss?

Not to mention it's been forced on us for thousands of years. Notice during the great Enlightenment Period science advanced when religion stopped fighting it.


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## Dhara (Apr 6, 2016)

IMO, believing or not believing in God is beside the point.

What is it that gives your life a positive forward direction?  That's more the issue.


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## sealybobo (Apr 6, 2016)

Dhara said:


> IMO, believing or not believing in God is beside the point.
> 
> What is it that gives your life a positive forward direction?  That's more the issue.


Instead of worrying about why we are here , a question we may never answer, try to give your life purpose. You can make this world a better place just by being nice.

It is the least I can do. And don't ever let it be said I didn't at least do the least I could do.

I would love to give the generations after us more cures, less poverty, a greener planet, a great standard of living and quality of life, a less corrupt government, less war, less bullies, less crime, affordable healthcare for all.

No God necessary to want to do the right thing. In fact many theists don't want to do the right thing.


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## Dhara (Apr 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > IMO, believing or not believing in God is beside the point.
> ...


Great post. I'm inviting you to take a look at the thread on Recovery in the Health and Lifestyle forum.


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## ChrisL (Apr 7, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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I don't think you know what either of those things are.  Lol.


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## ChrisL (Apr 7, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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No, YOU feel that you have a connection to something "greater than self."  You don't speak for others, like I've told you before.  You can only speak for yourself.


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## ChrisL (Apr 7, 2016)

Dhara said:


> sealybobo said:
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He is not "nice" at all.  Lol.  He's kind of a jerk actually.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
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> > sealybobo said:
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Let her figure that out for herself.  I saw the other day even Boss called you out for being a bitch.  But I have noticed you haven't been such a b when I run across you lately.  Maybe you're being a little more sensitive to other people's feelings?  Good for you Chris!


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## ChrisL (Apr 7, 2016)

Dhara said:


> sealybobo said:
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> 
> > Dhara said:
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Don't believe him and don't fall for his garbage.  He is another internet troll, though a bit more mild than some of the others.


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## Militants (Apr 7, 2016)

I know I am both Baptist Christian and ateist. I belief nothing in faith.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 7, 2016)

.
why one would not believe there to be an Almighty as based on the neuralcepters found in "brains" of only half the life forms on Earth may more represent a reason they are Spiritless than a realistic understanding of what actually constitute living beings, their origin and the perimeters as purity associated with their existence.

.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
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> > sealybobo said:
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Why, because you got mad when I defended someone else you were being very mean to?  Bonzi?  You said you were going to block me.  I saw you did not block me but I didn't reply to you once trying to purposely stay away from your bitch ass.  Then today you kind of broke the truce in this thread.  So I win by the way.  I didn't reply to you once, you replied to me.  LOL.  I knew you loved me.  But I also see you are still pouting.  Difference between real life and here is you can't use your vagina to make me say sorry.  I don't care that you are a pretty little girl on here.  

And it is sad we can't get along because religiously and politically we agree on a lot of shit.  The only time we ever butt heads is when you are being a bitch or narcissist.

And I see your posts all the time.  I see very little difference between what you post and what I post.  You like to be shocking, blunt and unapologetic, me too.  So what makes me a troll and you not a troll?


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> why one would not believe there to be an Almighty as based on the neuralcepters found in "brains" of only half the life forms on Earth may more represent a reason they are Spiritless than a realistic understanding of what actually constitute living beings, their origin and the perimeters as purity associated with their existence.
> 
> .


What the fuck did you just say?


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
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Just because I'm honest and tell you that you are 48, not 38?  I thought I was just being captain obvious.


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## Dhara (Apr 7, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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I think you're attracted to her.


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## ChrisL (Apr 7, 2016)

Dhara said:


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He's weird.  He is always harassing me.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

Dhara said:


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She knows that.  Then she freaks out when I don't kiss her ass like all the other guys in her real life who let her win arguments all the time because they are trying to get in her pants.  I know I'll never get in her pants so I tell her like it is.

It's funny you will notice she likes telling it like it is but not hearing it like it is.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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I haven't responded to you once since that one day until I just saw you warning people about me.  Maybe I should start warning people about you.  Would you like that or would you threaten to block me again?

You should have blocked me.  I blocked an asshole and I guess he says shit to me all the time but I wouldn't know it because I don't see his stupid replies.

Don't know why you broke the truce dummy.


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## ChrisL (Apr 7, 2016)

Dhara said:


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He is just another internet whacko.  Lol.  This place is infested with them.  When I first started posting here, he would harass me, try to tell me I looked like I was 50 years old, and other such things.  Lol.  Obviously, he is a nut bar.  

These are the types of people I avoid.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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Go cook your rabbit Glenn Close.  

Chris and I dated for a bit but it ended very badly


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)




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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

Dhara said:


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And don't worry Dhara.  As long as you aren't a total bitch like ChrisL we will get along just fine.  It's why she's a lonely spinster in her late 40's.


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## Dhara (Apr 7, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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I like Chris a lot.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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And notice once you start you can't stop.  So forget about talking about god.  It's ChrisL time.

Toby Keith wrote this song about you


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

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So did I.


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## ChrisL (Apr 7, 2016)

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Again, like I told you, he is another weirdo.  He has harassed me from day 1, and I didn't even know who he was.  He is just NOT a good person, IMO.    A person who has some serious issues.


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## Dhara (Apr 7, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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He doesn't bother me, Chris.  Maybe he's got a crush or something.


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## Boss (Apr 7, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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I'm not making anything but logical points you can't refute. You consistently fail to point out flaws. I'm pointing out logical flaws in your arguments. Indeed, many people do spiritually connect with the universe... I don't have a problem with that as long as you understand a physical universe, according to physics, math and logic, cannot create itself.


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## Boss (Apr 7, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Well no it's not and you haven't proven that with any evidence.
> ...



Ignorance is bliss is certainly not wishful thinking. You're contradicting your own argument. On one hand you're claiming we were so distressed about dying that we invented some imaginary placebo to console our fears, then claim we are blissful in ignorance... which one is it?

You can't force anyone to be spiritually connected any more than you can force someone not to be, it's a conscious choice made by the individual. What I notice in the great enlightenment period is the people who were most influential were very spiritual... Isaac Newton, for example.  As for your other stupid point about being less spiritual today, you're wrong. About 90% of our species is spiritual now, just as it was in the 1500s, just as it was 70,000 B.C. There is no change.

Going back to your "Point A" above... so you think we are smart enough to invent something but too stupid to understand it was an invention?  How does that even make rational sense?


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## Dhara (Apr 7, 2016)

Boss said:


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Just because people are spiritual doesn't mean they believe in God or think the God concept makes any sense.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

Boss said:


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Both.  We invented god and heaven to make us happy.  God doesn't actually exist so ignorance is bliss.  You have a hard time with the most basic of thoughts.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)




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## Boss (Apr 7, 2016)

Dhara said:


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Absolutely true.


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## Boss (Apr 7, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Both. We invented god and heaven to make us happy. God doesn't actually exist so ignorance is bliss. You have a hard time with the most basic of thoughts.


You cannot INVENT something to make you happy. It simply doesn't work because your brain knows you invented it an it isn't real. If we had such a capability there would be NO depression... Ever! We'd simply invent something not real and make ourselves happy!

"Ignorance is bliss" still isn't making any sense here... we shouldn't be the least bit distressed by death because we can be blissful in our ignorance... but we're not that way. We are consciously aware of something greater than self... immortality... that is the reason we are distressed about death. It's also why it's unique to our species.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Both. We invented god and heaven to make us happy. God doesn't actually exist so ignorance is bliss. You have a hard time with the most basic of thoughts.
> ...


You make a good point. No one really truly believes. Ever see anyone looking forward to death? Or happy when their loveone passes? Hell no! We tell ourselves they are in a better place and one day we will see them again. 

Sorry boss but you are trying too hard. You're over thinking this. What you think is improbable or impossible is indeed true. You've invented something in your head. You talk to it and you think it's involved in your life. And it's the most generic vague definition of God. Only you believes the shit you're saying. 

A moon is greater than self. The universe is greater than self.  What you're doing is thinking you are greater than you actually are. You're just the smartest animal on this planet. But really not that smart yet. You/we have a lot of evolving to do.

And in 5000 years we will still be debating this but I suspect all the ancient religions(Christian Muslim Jewish) will be abandoned


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Both. We invented god and heaven to make us happy. God doesn't actually exist so ignorance is bliss. You have a hard time with the most basic of thoughts.
> ...


You didn't invent the idea your ancestors did. You're brainwashed


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

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I would like to apologize to Chris for being rude. I agree with her politics and thoughts on religion and other topics. Just when it goes personal we butt heads. Chris I'll try to avoid getting into it with you on personal shit.

I have a guy on here I love in the sports area but hate his politics. We don't talk politics when we are talking sports.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 7, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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.






not everyone is obsessed with refuting scriptural religions as you though commendable that pursuit in the end is not a refutation of an Almighty any less than the pursuit of the earlier forms of spoken mythology being refuted by the same scriptures or as today by science.

there will always be a Poseidon.

.


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## sealybobo (Apr 7, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


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Exactly, I think?


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## Boss (Apr 8, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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I'm not "over-thinking" anything, just applying basic logic and biological science. We tell ourselves the dead are in a better place because we are spiritually-aware creatures who believe in a better place where our immortal spirit goes... this is an intrinsic and inseparable belief humans have always had and it defines our species. You've fooled yourself into believing this is something we invented even though the evidence shows we couldn't have invented it. It defies nature and logic for this to be something we invented. You can find evidence for when humans invented anything other than spirituality. The reason for that is simple, we didn't invent it... we couldn't have... if we had, it would have quickly become obsolete as our brains figured out it was futile and pointless to believe an invention of something fake. Other than 'novelty' you can't just think up something from imagination and have it serve some vital tangible purpose... it doesn't work. I can believe in fairies and gnomes but I can't cause them to serve some vital purpose in reality.

The moon is not "greater than self" and you demonstrate you don't comprehend what I am saying. I'm not talking about a physical greatness in quantity. I am talking about a power which transcends the physical. I assume you do believe in love, right? That would be an example of something non-physical that can be greater than self. That's not the moon or the physical universe. Does the moon make you love someone or not love them? Does the universe make you desire to leave a better world behind after you're gone? Those are spiritual inclinations driven by your spiritual awareness.

You have no idea what the future holds for our species. You can speculate based on assumptions but you have no crystal ball or way of knowing the future. If we still exist in 5k years, we'll still be spiritual creatures for the most part, just as we always have been... it defines our species. Religions are man-made constructs which CONFIRM our spirituality... they may come and go, they always have.  Spirituality is a constant for our species. It will never happen but IF we wiped out all human spirituality, we'd cease to be human. We would devolve into highly-intelligent predatory beasts operating by the laws of the jungle and self-preservation... I promise you, it would be a bad world.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 8, 2016)

.


Boss said:


> operating by the laws of the jungle and self-preservation... I promise you, it would be a bad world.



_*
I promise you, it would be a bad world.*_


of course, Flora is the bedrock of evil ... and who would have known but a "Spiritualist".

.


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## sealybobo (Apr 9, 2016)

Boss said:


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I have no idea what the future holds but you do. Got it. Lol


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## Boss (Apr 9, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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I don't know any more than you, I speculate based on the assumption we will continue being what we've always been.


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## sealybobo (Apr 9, 2016)

Boss said:


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I think there might be a creator but believing one exists is not a requirement.

You can believe there is a God but anything beyond that is just wild human speculation. What happens when you die? What happens to bad people vs. Good? Who knows. The Greeks imagined average people didn't to to heaven and we imagined they do, if they are "good". Christianity says good won't cut it. No one is good so we have to believe a story. Very clever.

So we imagined up heaven and most likely God too


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## ChrisL (Apr 9, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Dhara said:
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I accept your apology and I also apologize for saying mean things to you.  HOWEVER, we do not have any kind of a "personal" relationship.  You are the one who tries to get "personal."  I have asked you to stop doing that many times now.  But I'm willing to let it go.


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## Boss (Apr 9, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
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I don't know about creators or heaven, those are man-made constructs inspired by our spiritual awareness... they could be true, false, partially true or whatever... we don't know. What we DO know is that humans make a spiritual connection with some force greater than self and they always have. Whatever men preaching religions say, has nothing to do with this. So many like you are simply hell bent on rejecting Christianity that you can't even be objective about this and it's frustrating to me because I don't come here to argue for Christian beliefs. I don't know if Christians are right or wrong or partially right or partially wrong... I have no idea and I don't concern myself with what I don't know. I only know that humans make a profound connection with something, a force beyond the physical, something greater than ourselves which inspires us to invent, create, imagine, achieve, persevere and triumph over adversity. I don't give a damn what you want to CALL it... call it "umpa-lumpa" for all I care... we've got it and we've always had it. Logic and biology suggests we always will have it and it can't be stomped out of the hearts of man. You can certainly TRY but you'll fail like countless others have failed through history. It's an intrinsic and inseparable thing that makes us unique as a species. It continues to be our most defining attribute as a species.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 9, 2016)

.







there are goals and combinations when accomplished produce effects that may be unique for that moment but can then be sustained for millennia and even through ages - the modern crocodiles appeared 200 million years ago and have little changed since that time ...

it is not only how Life began but what from its beginning led to the diversity caused by individual organisms attaining the knowledge and then creating for themselves an entirely new set of circumstances that then reflect the new mold from that point forward till again a new discovery changes the organism yet again or then chooses as the crocodile to remain the same for over 200 million years.

there should be little doubt there will be an organism that will find in time the means to sustain itself without a physiology and live by that means an indeterminate number of years to possibly sustain itself for millennia, ages and beyond.

the ingredients though or if an Almighty may already exist to have accomplished the above goal are certain to be stringent but by the example of the crocodile seem credible and if not already accomplished as can be imagined must already exist.

hidden in written scriptures, spoken religions are clues - such that were an individual to reach the Apex of Knowledge or to accomplish the Triumph of Good vs Evil, just what would they find beyond those plateaus and then be able to accomplish. 

and why an already accomplished Almighty would insure the correct Triumph prevails and not the otherway around ...

.


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## Boss (Apr 9, 2016)

The "Almighty" and "Everlasting" is spiritual nature. It is what created crocodiles, Flora, Fauna, and everything physical in a physical universe with a physical reality of mathematics, matter. time and space. It's logical because none of those things are capable of creating themselves. Humans have the capacity to recognize their spiritual awareness and act upon it. Whether other living things can or can't is incidental to the fact that humans are inspired by it to become something greater. It remains our most defining attribute as a species.  

Our spiritual connection cannot be summarily dismissed as an invention that defies all logic and reason. It would be like finding an automobile and presuming the auto created itself out of a fear that it wouldn't become a mode of transportation.... it makes no rational sense. We would know that someone or something created the automobile because it cannot create itself. It was intentionally created to serve a purpose, just as spiritual nature created physics for a purpose. If we had never seen an automobile before, we might speculate on what purpose it was to serve but we would indeed conclude it was created for some purpose and reason by something other than itself. Anything else defies logic and reason.


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## sealybobo (Apr 9, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
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There was a time when I realized religions were made up but I still had a personal relationship with God. Then I realized I was talking to myself. And now I think believing in God has and is holding us back.

Look how much time you spend trying to convince us that there's something greater than self. I disagree. Does that make you better? I don't see the need for it.


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## Boss (Apr 10, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> There was a time when I realized religions were made up but I still had a personal relationship with God. Then I realized I was talking to myself. And now I think believing in God has and is holding us back.
> 
> Look how much time you spend trying to convince us that there's something greater than self. I disagree. Does that make you better? I don't see the need for it.



I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Just trying to show you how your assumptions and conjectures are invalid and aren't supported by logic or scientific evidence.If you want to remain a dummy the rest of your life, that's up to you... to quote a certain poster we both know... ignorance is bliss.

I've not argued in favor of any conceptualization of God. To me, these are simply evidence that humans have intrinsic spiritual awareness and therefore, have a need to explain that somehow. If there IS or ISN'T some "Godhead" figure or deity... I can't say.... I don't know that. What I know, again, is that there IS a spiritual force surrounding us all the time. It compels us toward the light and away from the darkness. It drives us toward good and away from evil. Fundamentally, it is what makes us human beings with humanity.

Can it also manifest itself in negative ways to the detriment of mankind? Certainly. But by and large, it is why we climbed down out of the trees, harnessed fire, invented the wheel, created written and spoken language, formed great civilizations, went to the moon, cured diseases and harnessed nuclear energy, etc.


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## sealybobo (Apr 10, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > There was a time when I realized religions were made up but I still had a personal relationship with God. Then I realized I was talking to myself. And now I think believing in God has and is holding us back.
> ...


It is not the reason we did any of those things. The trees died and monkeys were forced to climb down and walk rather than swing from tree to tree.

And we went to the moon to beat the Russians. Carl Sagan did that


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## Boss (Apr 10, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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And you're full of malarkey.


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## sealybobo (Apr 10, 2016)

Boss said:


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I thought I was full of soul. Now you say I'm full of malarkey?. Lol.


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## Boss (Apr 10, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> I thought I was full of soul. Now you say I'm full of malarkey?. Lol.



Haven't you heard? There's no such thing as souls! 

Yes, you're full of malarkey, as your last post demonstrated. We didn't climb down out of the trees because the trees went away-- because the monkeys are still in the trees. Some of them went extinct but that's because they failed to adapt. Our saving grace... pardon the pun... was our ability to spiritually connect with something greater than self. We were inspired by something beyond ourselves, just like when we harnessed fire. Our myriad of remarkable achievements as humans all stem from our ability to be inspired by something greater than self. And this is the pattern of the human experience all the way down to Carl Sagan and Albert Einstein.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 10, 2016)

.


Boss said:


> The "Almighty" and "Everlasting" is spiritual nature. It is what created crocodiles, Flora, Fauna, and everything physical in a physical universe with a physical reality of mathematics, matter. time and space. It's logical because none of those things are capable of creating themselves.




_*Boss: It is what created crocodiles, Flora, Fauna, and everything physical ... It's logical because none of those things are capable of creating themselves.*_


somewhere there is a gap between yourself (bossy) and all other beings that you have made as the construct for Spiritualism that could not be any further from reality than the Sun would be defined as a floating Iceberg, including your delineation that does exist for the interchangeability from Physical to Spiritual ... you are a near hopeless state.

Life is both Spiritual and Physical Nature, from its building block have emerged all living beings that though distinct are all from the same origin. there is no difference between the Tree a crocodile or a human, Spiritually.




Boss said:


> Our myriad of remarkable achievements as humans all stem from our ability to be inspired by something greater than self. And this is the pattern of the human experience all the way down to Carl Sagan and Albert Einstein.




all living beings are inspired, you confuse the accomplishments of humanity as something different or that the end product is pre determined as something specific only humanity has accomplished. the Crocodile and t-Rex chose their divergent paths the same as eventually humans.

the difference for humans seems to be a desire for knowledge the other species haven't a need for however were a specific human able to accomplish imortality in the Everlasting they surly would find both Flora and Fauna already there.

.


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## ChrisL (Apr 10, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > There was a time when I realized religions were made up but I still had a personal relationship with God. Then I realized I was talking to myself. And now I think believing in God has and is holding us back.
> ...



People who realize the falsehood of your statements are not dummies.  That would be you, I think.  Your postings on this topic are nothing but superstitious nonsense and figments of your own imagination.


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## ChrisL (Apr 10, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > I thought I was full of soul. Now you say I'm full of malarkey?. Lol.
> ...



Why don't you define "soul" for us?


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## Militants (Apr 10, 2016)

There is no Swedish God how can help me with believe I trust only the Swedish God but if he donät exist I am ateist but I know sometimes and in forum I though how are that believers never exist or what ?? Help exist for humans who need support when able not enough to them. Maybe Oden anyway. Oden exists of Asa Gods. And Thor the son of Oden.


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## Boss (Apr 10, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> People who realize the falsehood of your statements are not dummies. That would be you, I think. Your postings on this topic are nothing but superstitious nonsense and figments of your own imagination.



"Realize the falsehood" implies you have somehow proven something to be false and you haven't. Dismissing things as "superstitious nonsense" is not proving something false. I have backed everything I've stated with indisputable logic and science. All you seem to ever do is refute and reject on the basis of your uninformed opinion.


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## sealybobo (Apr 10, 2016)

Boss said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> > People who realize the falsehood of your statements are not dummies. That would be you, I think. Your postings on this topic are nothing but superstitious nonsense and figments of your own imagination.
> ...


Indisputable logic? Lol


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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Yep... Until you can come up with a logical explanation of how physics created itself.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 11, 2016)

.
matter and physics are interchangeable and neither require maintenance unlike life.

.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> matter and physics are interchangeable and neither require maintenance unlike life.
> 
> .



That doesn't even make sense. Beer and cupcakes are interchangeable and neither require maintenance unlike a washing machine!  What the fuck does that even mean???


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## Hollie (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


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How did your gods create themselves?


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## Militants (Apr 11, 2016)

Now my hate about Allah Akbar is biger loses by mouslims in world and he will they get kill by terrorists even they faith in Allah Akbar they how Allah Akbar will have in loses. Why is Allah disapear about me hate about he ?? I wondering who and when my voices are from so I creater God, Christ and Allah hates in forum so God can help me he who never help me before against my voices. It is only my town citizens how are my voices. Very stupid against me with voices in brain. My voices are cp injured.


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## Militants (Apr 11, 2016)

Maybe one tousand or 1 voices in my brain. It's my old friend I dumped ? And he have Allah sin. It were mr Abdul how are planned 11/9 terrorist attack in NYC. He live in my town yet. He wanted me to like terror attack for 15 years ago.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

> How did your gods create themselves?



How many times do I need to answer this, Hollie?  

Spiritual things don't require physical creation. 

To "create" something is to bring something into physical state of existence. 

Spiritual things are not physical things. This is why you have such a difficult time understanding God... you keep wanting to imagine God as a physical being of some kind.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


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.
that their creation is irrelevant to their existence whereas life is a variable without certainty, for those participating for why there would be an Almighty for one and not necessarily for the other. how matter and physics together created life.

.


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## Militants (Apr 11, 2016)

My old friend like terrorists. I dumped him for to like U.S.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


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I still have no idea what you're attempting to say. Sorry.
*
*


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Militants said:


> Now my hate about Allah Akbar is biger loses by mouslims in world and he will they get kill by terrorists even they faith in Allah Akbar they how Allah Akbar will have in loses. Why is Allah disapear about me hate about he ?? I wondering who and when my voices are from so I creater God, Christ and Allah hates in forum so God can help me he who never help me before against my voices. It is only my town citizens how are my voices. Very stupid against me with voices in brain. My voices are cp injured.


Are you a foreigner who doesn't know how to write english or are you retarded?


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

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How about militants?  What the fuck is he trying to say?


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## silverfoxylassy (Apr 11, 2016)

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You sound confused, and not really making any sense.


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## Valerie (Apr 11, 2016)

note the n00b with 3 posts who joined in 2008.  

best of luck on your way to the leader board...





 Online
* silverfoxylassy Rookie *
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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

silverfoxylassy said:


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And you think your story makes sense?  I was simply saying if there is a "creator", that's a completely different thing that saying god sent jesus and you have to believe the story or you don't go to heaven.

Boss has a very generic god.  It's a lot harder to call bullshit on his god but at least he isn't claiming it came down and gave him 10 commandments.  

So go ahead and believe something created the universe.  We've been arguing that since we could talk.  Just don't tell me he talked to your ancestor Moses, Noah, Mary, Mohammad or Joseph Smith.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

silverfoxylassy said:


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Maybe if you came around more than once every 8 years you'd be a lot sharper.


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## Hollie (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> > How did your gods create themselves?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's just so convenient to grant your gods and magical spirit realms special dispensations with the classic "...... because I say so", commandment.

These dispensations and exceptions must therefore apply to all the other gods and all the other magical spirit realms. 

Tell us what uniquely separates your gods and your spirit realms from those of the Greek gods.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss has a very generic god.



I realize this is your perception but it's not what I said. I don't "have" anything. I am _aware_ of spiritual nature. All that I can tell you that I "know" is what I believe based on evidence and proof to myself. I can't tell you that what I "know" is truth or not... we can never actually "know" anything, including reality. Everything we claim to "know" is rooted in faith. Everything. 

Now you will say... But "science knows" this or that... not true. Science may _believe_ this or that and it may have plenty of evidence and proof to support it's belief. It's still a belief and not an absolute truth. 

I don't understand what a "generic god" is or what that means. I don't believe in a human-like deity with humanistic characteristics of love, hate, envy, anger, need, compassion, etc. I believe (because I experience it) in a spiritual force coursing through our physical universe, guiding us on a path toward light and away from darkness, toward good and away from evil. This force provides for us with an inspiration to achieve and accomplish amazing things and overcome tremendous adversity.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > > How did your gods create themselves?
> ...



I don't know that it's "unique" it may not be. The Greeks may have contemplated the very same spiritual force and their incarnation of "Gods" to explain this are all we have evidence of today. I can't ask the Greeks, they're all dead now. 

There is no "dispensation" here. The spiritual simply doesn't require physical creation which is what you asked me about. The spiritual exists (in a spiritual sense) because of logic. Something had to create physics and physical nature. It defies logic that it created itself.


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## Hollie (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss has a very generic god.
> ...


You have just invented your own version of gods and magical spirit realms as superstitious humans have done in the past. 

The formidable Union of gods who once managed all sorts of events in nature have been discarded in favor of just a few gods who can multi-task and share the workload of creating thunder and lightning and those events previously ascribed to many gods. 

It's really remarkable how similar your claims to gods and spirit realms resemble all the other claims to gods and spirit realms. What separates your claims from all the others?


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



A spiritual person is one who seeks to elevate himself, to connect with a higher power, or simply his higher self. He believes there is more to the world than what is easily seen, than what is merely physical. He will have certain guidelines of behavior he will go by, but all in the name of properly attuning with the infinite and entering some higher state of consciousness. Tibetan monks are the best example of the spiritual.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

So what is the difference between being spiritual and being religious? One includes the other, right? Well, yes and no. The core of most all religions are built on a spiritual foundation, but remember that Man invented religions and so it is subject to his flaws. If a religion says that it’s alright to beat up a woman for a trivial reason or that you must wear a silly clown hat every other Tuesday, does that make it spiritual? Or even moral? No, of course not. So where, then, does being religious part company with being spiritual?

Religions attempt to gain access to a higher power in the hope of improving your life’s condition. This usually means sending out your prayers to the deity of your choice, hope that you’re heard, then have the firm belief that something will happen. Spirituality involves the attempt to focus your mind to gain access to the higher power within yourself in the hope of improving your life’s condition. This usually means meditating to send your thoughts to the Universe in general, hope that it hears you, then have the firm belief that something will happen.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


That deity that everyone’s always trying to pray to in order to make their lives better? It is, and always has been within yourself. It’s just that most people do not have the confidence in themselves to believe that they can access such a power, that they can channel their own solutions (and most do not understand enough of quantum mechanics to realize it is possible). So, they put a face on things and start praying, not realizing that the confidence they have that this higher power can hear and fulfill their wishes is indirectly a sort of confidence in themselves. They don’t dare to believe in themselves directly because someone told them that is bad in some way, so they believe in another.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

But there is a science behind it, backed by quantum mechanics, which as we have seen is a lot stranger than anything either religion or spirituality has yet dreamed up. Religions revolve around loving God (by whichever name you give him), knowing that He loves you in return. But why not simply love yourself directly? Because most people cannot; they see only their faults and cannot love themselves, and as such they do not believe that they deserve any improvement at all in their lives. They believe that they must deserve whatever punishment their lives seem to be. Unless they turn to a higher power that can forgive them. This self-hatred, or inability to love yourself, is what gets in the way of manifesting what you need, because deep within you what you’re really intending to manifest is this belief that you deserve all the bad stuff you’ve been getting. So religion ends up being a way out of this conundrum.

Spirituality is all about knowing and loving yourself directly, believing that you do deserve forgiveness and better things in Life. It takes out the middleman of believing in another that in turn believes in you, and just goes straight for the believe in yourself part. Look upon it like this: religion is the power of belief at retail prices, while spirituality is more like wholesale.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> So what is the difference between being spiritual and being religious? One includes the other, right? Well, yes and no. The core of most all religions are built on a spiritual foundation, but remember that Man invented religions and so it is subject to his flaws. If a religion says that it’s alright to beat up a woman for a trivial reason or that you must wear a silly clown hat every other Tuesday, does that make it spiritual? Or even moral? No, of course not. So where, then, does being religious part company with being spiritual?
> 
> Religions attempt to gain access to a higher power in the hope of improving your life’s condition. This usually means sending out your prayers to the deity of your choice, hope that you’re heard, then have the firm belief that something will happen. Spirituality involves the attempt to focus your mind to gain access to the higher power within yourself in the hope of improving your life’s condition. This usually means meditating to send your thoughts to the Universe in general, hope that it hears you, then have the firm belief that something will happen.



Religions are simply evidence of mankind's human spiritual connection. We connect with something greater than self and we can't wrap our primitive monkey brains around what it is exactly, so we invent religions to explain it.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


From what I just read about people who are spiritual, it seems you are arrogant and instead of answering to a god, you think YOU are the god.  The power is within you.  No god necessary.  Man this is just silly.  So obvious what is going on in your head.


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## Hollie (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Actually, there are a lot of appeals to special dispensations and exceptions. 

Appeals to "..... because I say so", regarding your claim of the spirit realms not requiring physical creation are convenient, but unnecessary for those not a part of your version of gods and spirit realms. 

How are your appeals to gods and spirit realms justified in light of those gods and spirit realms subordinate to more authoritative claims to gods and spirit realms?


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## Hollie (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Boss is his own God in his own spirit realm?

That could be. Does he dress in a long flowing gown and wear sandals?


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > So what is the difference between being spiritual and being religious? One includes the other, right? Well, yes and no. The core of most all religions are built on a spiritual foundation, but remember that Man invented religions and so it is subject to his flaws. If a religion says that it’s alright to beat up a woman for a trivial reason or that you must wear a silly clown hat every other Tuesday, does that make it spiritual? Or even moral? No, of course not. So where, then, does being religious part company with being spiritual?
> ...


*Spirituality* is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all.

Even the definition understands you are just trying to find meaning to your life.  I love it when people like you think something is missing in our lives because we don't buy into this crap.

Being spiritual is a human experience.  

Do a quick Internet search on the word “spirituality.” Go ahead. I can wait.

In less than half a second you will likely get around 47,000,000 hits.2 Staggering, right? While that may seem excessive, it perfectly captures the number of different responses you could get if you asked random people on the street what they think spirituality is. It then becomes terribly difficult to discuss spirituality with others because it is so individualized.

- See more at: What Is Spirituality?

We can see from the Latin that the Romans believed in a connection between our breathing and our souls.

But it wasn’t until after Christianity became the widespread Roman religion that a word for spirituality itself—spiritalitas—actually developed. 

The modern idea of spirituality sprang forth from the individualistic tendencies of Transcendentalism. Transcendentalism, which greatly emphasizes the power of the individual’s inner or mental essence, arose in response by figures such as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau to New England Calvinist traditions that preached predestination and the doctrine of the Trinity. Emerson and Thoreau believed in neither predestination nor the Trinity; they subscribed to Unitarianism.7 Unitarianism states that while Jesus Christ was the son of God and a man, he was not himself an aspect of God as is believed by Trinitarians.

The Transcendentalists became known for their rejection of what they considered to be the conformity of church congregations. They instead advocated a life spent in isolation, during which time God could be experienced. These experiences, the Transcendentalists held, were the only ways in which a person could come to know God. Emerson went so far as to advocate that Jesus, as a man, celebrated the greatness of man and gave man an avenue in which to share in the divinity of God and take on a likeness to God.8

Transcendentalism paved the way for some of the key aspects of modern spirituality. The individualistic nature of Transcendentalism led many people in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries to question organized religions and their definitions of what is sacred and holy. As a result, Transcendentalists moved away from ritualized worship and began to seek out ways in which the individual could connect with the beyond.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Hollie said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


That is kind of true.  The more I read about people who are spiritual, the more I realize they think they know better than the churches.  Boss doesn't believe in something greater than self because he is god himself.  He has a direct link to god.  Yet notice religions say he's full of shit?

The final element in modern spirituality is the acceptance of the individual by the rejection of the institution.14 In America, this mainly applies to the Christian church, but around the world it applies to all organized religion.

The rejection of institutionalized religion stems from the negative publicity that is unfortunately so often deeply connected with it. Because of the tragedies that can sometimes result from religion—from the countless acts of violence by fanatics to terrorist bombings to child abuse cases—people increasingly want to distance themselves from organized religions, preferring to make their own way through the spiritual milieu.15

Maybe you’ve heard someone say something like, “I’m spiritual, but not religious.” Perhaps you’ve said this yourself. Essentially, this is what people mean. Though they may have some interest in the metaphysical, they prefer to find their own meaning in life over taking the prepared path of religion. Indeed, some go so far as to say the world would be a better place with no religion.

- See more at: What Is Spirituality?


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Hollie said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Boss proves absolutely zero evidence is needed for a primitive human to believe.

But as you can see no one is joining boss cult so obviously it's much more effective when you tell people it visited you.

This "greater than self" can be defined as things we don't know.

I used to fear the boogie man and I used to believe in God


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## BreezeWood (Apr 11, 2016)

.
Spirituality is an ability to detach from physiology to prosper without death for an indeterminate amount of time. 

.


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## HUGGY (Apr 11, 2016)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.



This is proof that car crashes are just as violent a death as any terrorist attack including 9/11.  This is why I do not fear terror.  I fear stupid drunks and other ingrates driving out of control on the roads.  There never was a god but you can bet the farm that there is danger on our highways.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> .
> Spirituality is an ability to detach from physiology to prosper without death for an indeterminate amount of time.
> 
> .


So its a mechanism for humans to connect with what they fear? The unknown?


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## Dhara (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Have you considered that instead of "imagining" Heaven and Hell as actual "places" we "go to" heaven and hell may be states of mind?


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Well, I don't see how I have been arrogant. I humbly admit that I may not be right about there being no deity God. But that's the thing-- no one knows until they die. We can THINK we know but we won't know for certain until we die. 

I don't think I am the God... I am certainly not Spiritual Nature. It's something bigger than me... bigger than you.. bigger than humans in general. Bigger and greater than a physical universe and reality that it created and made possible for us to experience. And with that, it is also bigger and greater than anything our minds can conjure up and call "God". 

There is no God necessary to be Spiritual. All it takes is being human.... and using logic. If you have those two things going for you, then you can be Spiritual. And being Spiritual doesn't mean you have to abide by some man-made religious doctrine and believe in some man-made incarnation of a jealous and scornful deity who expects us to follow commandments and obey dogma.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

Hollie said:


> How are your appeals to gods and spirit realms justified in light of those gods and spirit realms subordinate to more authoritative claims to gods and spirit realms?



Here's the thing.... Let's take someone like Billy Graham.... We're talking about the 97-year-old Christian evangelist, Billy Graham. He does not know what happens after you die. He believes certain things... that is his faith. But he won't know if he was right or wrong until he dies. No one does. Not Graham, not Neil DeGrasse Tyson, not anyone. That's just how things are. 

I can't change that. I can't say that my viewpoint is superior or subordinate to another... I don't know. All I can ever go on is my personal experience and what I believe is true. And that's all Graham and Tyson can go on as well as yourself and others. We can certainly ARGUE about it... these threads are endless and they go on for page after page making the same points over and over. BUT-- Until we die, we aren't going to know for certain.


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## Dhara (Apr 11, 2016)

As a teenager, I went to a Billy Graham rally at Shea Stadium accompanied by my two best friends, a Jew and a Native American.
After the talk, everyone was invited to come forward and "Surrender yourself to Jesus".  It was curious, so the three of us went forward.

When I heard someone tell my Jewish and Native American friends that it didn't matter how good a person they were, they weren't going to Heaven unless they "took Jesus as their personal savior", I knew internally that Christianity was over for me.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

Dhara said:


> As a teenager, I went to a Billy Graham rally at Shea Stadium accompanied by my two best friends, a Jew and a Native American.
> After the talk, everyone was invited to come forward and "Surrender yourself to Jesus".  It was curious, so the three of us went forward.
> 
> When I heard someone tell my Jewish and Native American friends that it didn't matter how good a person they were, they weren't going to Heaven unless they "took Jesus as their personal savior", I knew internally that Christianity was over for me.



I can relate to that experience. When I was a child, my family went to church every Sunday... we were Baptists. I was "saved" and baptized just as my brothers and sisters were because that's what you did in a Baptist family. It made my mother happy and until the day she died, I obliged her by attending church whenever I came to town. 

But I can recall when I was probably about 14 or 15... thinking... Man, when I die and go to heaven, God is going to know what's in my heart... because, he's God, right? So he is going to know that I think all this stuff about Jesus being God's living son is bullshit. I can't lie about it... I can't be dunked in some water to prove it... God will know what's really in my heart and I won't be able to hide that. 

People would sometimes ask, "Are you a born-again Christian?" And I would respond that I was... but I knew that I didn't really believe like a Christian. I'm sure there are a lot of people in the Church like that as well. I could just never reconcile the hypocrisy in my mind... God is going to know that I am a hypocrite. What is worse-- saying you believe when you don't or not believing at all?


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Dhara said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


That's exactly what they are! That's my point.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > How are your appeals to gods and spirit realms justified in light of those gods and spirit realms subordinate to more authoritative claims to gods and spirit realms?
> ...


Who are you and what have you done with boss?


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Dhara said:


> As a teenager, I went to a Billy Graham rally at Shea Stadium accompanied by my two best friends, a Jew and a Native American.
> After the talk, everyone was invited to come forward and "Surrender yourself to Jesus".  It was curious, so the three of us went forward.
> 
> When I heard someone tell my Jewish and Native American friends that it didn't matter how good a person they were, they weren't going to Heaven unless they "took Jesus as their personal savior", I knew internally that Christianity was over for me.


Imagine every forefather of yours dating back to Jesus. How many people is that? 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents 16 great greats and so on. Think of all those souls either in heaven or hell. Ridiculous.

Now think of every soul of everyone else's ancestors. And that just dating back to Jesus. Now go back to moses. And now go back to paleoithic and monolithic and kro Magnum. The number of souls is mind blowing. 

I'll say one thing. The energy inside a star became us. The energy that is us will be recycled in the universe and who knows one day our energy may end up in another universe someday but me/I won't remember being me. I only have one shot at this life and I better make the most of it


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## BreezeWood (Apr 11, 2016)

.
... sorry everyone, there is a choice - of either death or the possibility before death to accomplish the goal in the pursuit of the Everlasting in either case everyone will know when the time has come.

.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Imagine every forefather of yours dating back to Jesus. How many people is that? 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents 16 great greats and so on. Think of all those souls either in heaven or hell. Ridiculous.
> 
> Now think of every soul of everyone else's ancestors. And that just dating back to Jesus. Now go back to moses. And now go back to paleoithic and monolithic and kro Magnum. The number of souls is mind blowing.
> 
> I'll say one thing. The energy inside a star became us. The energy that is us will be recycled in the universe and who knows one day our energy may end up in another universe someday but me/I won't remember being me. I only have one shot at this life and I better make the most of it



Playing "devil's advocate" here... so to speak--  

Numbers don't really mean anything spiritually. Numbers mean things to us because we live in a physical reality where math is numbers and everything in our universe is math. Time, math, matter, space, etc.... all these are elements of a physical universe and have no bearing on the spiritual. So "number of souls" doesn't matter. The same is true for your previous speculations on what God might have done before he created the universe... Time is not an element of the spiritual. It means absolutely nothing in a spiritual sense. 

When it comes to trying to understand this stuff, I think religious and non-religious people both have a problem overcoming our human perceptions. To put it succinctly, we are unable to imagine that which we cannot imagine.


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## sealybobo (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Imagine every forefather of yours dating back to Jesus. How many people is that? 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents 16 great greats and so on. Think of all those souls either in heaven or hell. Ridiculous.
> ...


Imagine this. Your life after you die will be just like it was before the spirm in your dad's balls cracked that egg. And it was just dumb luck. One wrong move and you'd have never been born. Consider yourself lucky.


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## Boss (Apr 11, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Imagine this. Your life after you die will be just like it was before the spirm in your dad's balls cracked that egg. And it was just dumb luck. One wrong move and you'd have never been born. Consider yourself lucky.



What if... after you die, the first voice you hear is asking you... "So, how was Heaven?"


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## Steven_R (Apr 11, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Imagine this. Your life after you die will be just like it was before the spirm in your dad's balls cracked that egg. And it was just dumb luck. One wrong move and you'd have never been born. Consider yourself lucky.
> ...



If this existence is Heaven, God has some real explaining to do.


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## K9Buck (Apr 12, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> > As a teenager, I went to a Billy Graham rally at Shea Stadium accompanied by my two best friends, a Jew and a Native American.
> ...



God says in the bible that he knew you before you were in the womb.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

Steven_R said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


I disagree. I would thank god for the time I got. I was very lucky. So we're you. Don't waste the gift


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

K9Buck said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Dhara said:
> ...


No God wrote that. Men did. Remember that


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## K9Buck (Apr 12, 2016)

God knew you and I both before we were in the womb.  I don't need the bible to know that to be true.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

K9Buck said:


> God knew you and I both before we were in the womb.  I don't need the bible to know that to be true.


Of course you needed the bible to fucking tell you that.

How many times did you repeat this lyric before you became brainwashed as a small child?

Jesus loves me! This I know, 
For the Bible tells me so;

And now you have the nerve to say you knew God knew YOU before you were in the womb as if that's obvious.  How was that obvious to you?  

_“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” _– Mark Twain


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

Argument from wishful thinking. The primary psychological role of traditional religion is rationalizing the tragedy of death as a good thing to alleviate the anxiety of mortality.  

_“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”_ – Carl Sagan


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## Hawkins (Apr 12, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Argument from wishful thinking. The primary psychological role of traditional religion is rationalizing the tragedy of death as a good thing to alleviate the anxiety of mortality.
> 
> _“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”_ – Carl Sagan



What's that to do with God exists or not. You mean the existence of God or not depends how humans behave?


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## Uncensored2008 (Apr 12, 2016)

D4E is not banned. Does this mean he is back in prison?


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## K9Buck (Apr 12, 2016)

Wow.  You're a pretty hateful person.  Why?  By the way, I didn't say I knew God.  Also, my belief in God doesn't come from my childhood nor the bible.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

K9Buck said:


> Wow.  You're a pretty hateful person.  Why?  By the way, I didn't say I knew God.  Also, my belief in God doesn't come from my childhood nor the bible.


You must be new. First of all, are you talking to me? Then reply to me so i know.

Why am I hateful? Im not. I think believing in God is holding us back. Have you watched the cosmos?

Also consider every two years I vote for someone who believes in God. Would you vote for an atheist? Then I should ask you why you are so hateful towards people who don't share your delusion?


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

K9Buck said:


> Wow.  You're a pretty hateful person.  Why?  By the way, I didn't say I knew God.  Also, my belief in God doesn't come from my childhood nor the bible.


Your post would be a lot more interesting if you told me where your believe in God comes from. Do you even know?

Anyways i know where your belief comes from. It comes from ignorance and fear of the unknown. If you and three other people were raised on an island and never told about God you may come up with the idea that something must have created such a perfect universe but that isn't true. If it is then something must have created god


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## BreezeWood (Apr 12, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> D4E is not banned. Does this mean he is back in prison?


. 
probably his Windows 95 finally died and he's to cheap to buy a new operating system ...

the same for a few others - Jeremiah


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## Boss (Apr 12, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> I think believing in God is holding us back.



In what way is that holding us back? Preventing transgender perverts from using the little girl's room? Signing off on whatever sexually deviant lifestyle you want to live? Allowing women to continue killing their unborn babies? What evidence do you have that we'd be a better society with more of this kind of thing? Because, historically speaking, moral corruption has always been the downfall of human civilizations. Maybe you mean the holding back of great scientific achievements like mapping the human genome? ....ooops... wait, that was done by a practicing Christian... never mind!

The ONLY way you will ever do away with belief in God(s) is to do away with human spirituality... that's why Hollie and Chris are always up in these threads trying to portray spirituality as a religious belief... so they can denounce it. If you get rid of human spirituality, you relegate us to nothing more than highly-intelligent wild animals and the law of the jungle takes over. There is no basis for morality, compassion, love, sharing, empathy, forgiveness, etc. All those human emotions are derived from our spirit and our spiritual understanding of something beyond self... something more important than our personal pleasures and desires.

You have simply failed to make any rational case for your argument. As I said, history, on the other hand, is RIFE with examples of men who thought just as you, that we'd all be better off without that "God" thing.... it always FAILS. Great and mighty civilizations have devolved and crumbled under such philosophy and were eventually restored by hope and spiritual enlightenment.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > I think believing in God is holding us back.
> ...


Guys like Socrates decided instead of math they push religion. It's held us back thousands of years.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 12, 2016)

Boss said:


> it always FAILS. Great and mighty civilizations have devolved and crumbled under such philosophy and were eventually restored by hope and spiritual enlightenment.


.






everyone knows what religion thought history and phony spiritualism has impounded on humanity - only a fool fears the Garden its inhabitants and the meaning for the collective existence.

.


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## Boss (Apr 12, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Guys like Socrates decided instead of math they push religion. It's held us back thousands of years.



Well... *NO*... it really didn't.  Sir Issac Newton is probably the greatest genius to ever live and was the father of scientific enlightenment. He was a spiritual man who gained his education through Trinity College, a religious institution and branch of Cambridge, funded by the church. One of his last publications, _Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John_ (1733)— published 3 years after his death, is primarily responsible for the modern Protestant Doctrine. 

Now, the very term "enlightenment" denotes human understanding of science overcoming state-ordained religious customs. Post-enlightenment, you have NO example of religion banning or restricting scientific understanding... that's what "enlightenment" literally means. So again, your entire arguments rests on events that happened BEFORE the enlightenment, BEFORE Issac Newton! That is certainly not holding us back NOW.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > I think believing in God is holding us back.
> ...


It is possible we wouldn't have advanced as much as we did if it weren't religious I'll give you that. Maybe we wouldn't have freedom and democracy if not for religion. I'm sure morality was better than being ruled by murderous pagans but I do think religion has held us back mentally in a lot of ways. For example stem cell. Maybe we'd have cures already if bible thumpers didn't cry over dead fetus'


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > it always FAILS. Great and mighty civilizations have devolved and crumbled under such philosophy and were eventually restored by hope and spiritual enlightenment.
> ...


But this he says didn't hold us back. In fact he now gives religion credit for science.

I guess if you can't beat em join em


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## Boss (Apr 12, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> It is possible we wouldn't have advanced as much as we did if it weren't religious I'll give you that. Maybe we wouldn't have freedom and democracy if not for religion. I'm sure morality was better than being ruled by murderous pagans but I do think religion has held us back mentally in a lot of ways. For example stem cell. Maybe we'd have cures already if bible thumpers didn't cry over dead fetus'



Nonsense. Adult stem cells have PROVEN to be better in every study they've done. There is no need to harvest fetal stem cells. This is yet another failed attempt by abortionists to rationalize what they're doing. There has never been one single cure for anything derived from fetal stem cells... EVER! And the ONLY argument made politically by the "religious right" is objection to federal funding of such. 

As for freedom and democracy... Our very nation is founded on the principle that "all men are created equal and endowed certain rights by their Creator!" The Father of Our Nation, George Washington, said, _"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." _I would think he knew what he was talking about.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Guys like Socrates decided instead of math they push religion. It's held us back thousands of years.
> ...


Funny you mention Newton. He published the plosophy natural principal matamatica which described the laws of physics in mathematical terms, challenging the prevailing notion that God planned out the universe.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > It is possible we wouldn't have advanced as much as we did if it weren't religious I'll give you that. Maybe we wouldn't have freedom and democracy if not for religion. I'm sure morality was better than being ruled by murderous pagans but I do think religion has held us back mentally in a lot of ways. For example stem cell. Maybe we'd have cures already if bible thumpers didn't cry over dead fetus'
> ...


He was wrong and so was Newton if be believes in God.


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## sealybobo (Apr 12, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > It is possible we wouldn't have advanced as much as we did if it weren't religious I'll give you that. Maybe we wouldn't have freedom and democracy if not for religion. I'm sure morality was better than being ruled by murderous pagans but I do think religion has held us back mentally in a lot of ways. For example stem cell. Maybe we'd have cures already if bible thumpers didn't cry over dead fetus'
> ...


Bullshit. Gordy howe had to be flown to Mexico to get stem cell he couldn't get here in Michigan.

You're proving religion holds us back by keeping us ignorant to the facts.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 12, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


. 
_*But this he says didn't hold us back. In fact he now gives religion credit for science.*_

there seems to be a sadistic pleasure he derives from Trolling ....

.


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## Boss (Apr 13, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> He was wrong and so was Newton if be believes in God.



If you are going to STATE people are wrong, it is up to you to PROVE them wrong. MORON!


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## Boss (Apr 13, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Bullshit. Gordy howe had to be flown to Mexico to get stem cell he couldn't get here in Michigan.



I stated that nothing has ever been cured with fetal stem cells. I stand by my statement.


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## sealybobo (Apr 13, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit. Gordy howe had to be flown to Mexico to get stem cell he couldn't get here in Michigan.
> ...


Before religious nuts didn't like using human embryos. Now it's fetal?

Gordy how had to go to Mexico for a cure. How many poor people can't afford that and just die? I stand behind my comment religion has held us back.


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## Militants (Apr 13, 2016)

I've hate Swedish God so I cannot believe on he. He's powerful truth to heaven if all believe on God. Christ in nothing to believe on. Jesus are Catolicism. I am baptist lutheran.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 13, 2016)

Boss said:


> Washington, said, _"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." _I would think he knew what he was talking about.






> Spurious Quotations
> 
> The quote is frequently misattributed to Washington, particularly in regards to his farewell address of 1796. The origin of the misquote is, perhaps, a mention of a similar statement in a biography of Washington first published in 1835. However, the quote that appeared in the biography has never been proven to have come from Washington.


_*

boss: Washington said ....*_

does the Troll expect us to believe he was just misinformed ?





Boss said:


> Nonsense. Adult stem cells have PROVEN to be better in every study they've done. There is no need to harvest fetal stem cells. This is yet another failed attempt by abortionists to rationalize what they're doing. There has never been one single cure for anything derived from fetal stem cells... EVER! And the ONLY argument made politically by the "religious right" is objection to federal funding of such.



or lying as above.

.


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## Boss (Apr 13, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Embryonic = Fetal. 

What was Howe cured of?


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## sealybobo (May 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > He was wrong and so was Newton if be believes in God.
> ...



You don't think religion is holding us back?  You need more proof it is?  Here you go:

Scientists have been able to make and study human embryos in their labs for decades. But they have never been able to keep them alive outside a woman's womb for more than about a week.  That limitation meant scientists were unable to conduct a range of detailed research into early human development.  But now researchers say they have discovered a way to keep human embryos alive in the laboratory about a week longer than ever before, and through a critical period of development.  It's a step they say will yield important insights into human development and could lead to a better understanding of the factors that cause miscarriages and birth defects.

"All of this research which we do in the lab should have enormous benefit," says Magdelena Zernicka-Goetz, a professor of developmental biology at the University of Cambridge in England who helped conduct the research.


But the advance is reviving a debate about the ethics of conducting experiments on human embryos in the laboratory.  Specifically, the move has raised questions about whether to change a long-standing rule that has limited research on human embryos to the first 14 days of their development.

Which side do you agree with?  Are you in favor of holding medical research back because of these precious embryo?


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## sealybobo (May 4, 2016)

BreezeWood said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > Washington, said, _"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." _I would think he knew what he was talking about.
> ...



Lets see how Boss feels about this.  

Scientists have been able to make and study human embryos in their labs for decades. But they have never been able to keep them alive outside a woman's womb for more than about a week.  That limitation meant scientists were unable to conduct a range of detailed research into early human development.  But now researchers say they have discovered a way to keep human embryos alive in the laboratory about a week longer than ever before, and through a critical period of development.  It's a step they say will yield important insights into human development and could lead to a better understanding of the factors that cause miscarriages and birth defects.  "All of this research which we do in the lab should have enormous benefit," says Magdelena Zernicka-Goetz, a professor of developmental biology at the University of Cambridge in England who helped conduct the research.


But the advance is reviving a debate about the ethics of conducting experiments on human embryos in the laboratory.  Specifically, the move has raised questions about whether to change a long-standing rule that has limited research on human embryos to the first 14 days of their development.

So far we know Boss disagrees with professor Zernicka-Goetz.  He says these embryo will not yield enormous benefits.  But I suspect that's a lie he swallowed long after his religious buddies were proven to have held us back as far as medical advances go.


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## Boss (May 4, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



I don't know, I think you're getting into some dangerous territory when you start doing science experiments on live human beings. PETA gets in an uproar when we do this with dogs and cats. 

I'm not saying we shouldn't do this under any circumstance but don't you think we need some rules and boundaries? If not, where does it end? Will it be okay to experiment on orphans next? What if you have a retarded child? Could the government take that child for science research? What about old people in nursing homes? We could learn a lot about the aging process and they aren't doing anyone any good in the nursing home, maybe we can get some scientific benefit from them? 

Religion is a man-made construct that comes from human spirituality. I have no argument for or against various religions... some are good, some are bad. Some benefit humanity and some undermine humanity. BUT... Human spirituality is the catalyst for our inspiration as humans. Without it, we are essentially a physically inferior ape species.


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## sealybobo (May 4, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


Forget about all those hypothetical extreme scenario what abouts and what ifs.  What about experimenting on living embryo's after 15 days of development?  Do you have a problem with that because your religion says doing it is wrong?  Then your religion is holding us back.  

Why don't we experiment on prisoners?  Good question.  I think it has to do with ethics.  It just doesn't feel right torturing someone who will feel it.  Even criminals.  But I would be open to experimenting on guys like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ariel Castro.  We could learn a lot from doing that.  

But I do have a problem with torturing humans who will feel it, even those two.  And so God isn't necessary for me to know the limits of what is right and wrong.  In my opinion, religion is erring too much on the side of caution.  That little embryo isn't feeling a thing. 

But my ethics say no to experimenting on innocent old people.  Unless of course they were so far gone they wouldn't feel it and their family agreed to it.    

Also, keep in mind this debunks your myth that nothing has come from fetus embryo, or whatever you called it in the past.  Scientists think we can learn a lot from those young fetus'.  You act like all embryo are the same.  They are not.  We need to experiment on all of them and not worry that a scientist is experimenting on an aborted fetus.  Who gives a shit?  My uncle died and donated his body to science.  They dissected the hell out of him.  So what?  Ashes to ashes.


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## Boss (May 4, 2016)

Well, a human embryo is capable of feeling pain at 20 weeks. So that seems to be quite a threshold you have for science. I don't know about the "ethics" of it because it's still human life. I don't have a "religious" view because I am not religious.... you know that already, so why do you continue to bring it up? I am spiritual, and my spiritual sense tells me it's inherently wrong to be tinkering around with human life in a science lab. I'm just not comfortable with it and I won't ever be. But what I am reading in your reply is a very murky moral and ethical boundary where you seem to meander around and create caveats on the fly based on your personal opinions. That's dangerous. It leads to some fairly abhorrent practices in human experimentation and I don't think MOST civilized people are down with that.


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## numan (May 4, 2016)

'
*GOD IS SO GREAT HE DOESN'T EVEN NEED TO EXIST* ...


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## sealybobo (Jun 28, 2016)

Boss said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > It is possible we wouldn't have advanced as much as we did if it weren't religious I'll give you that. Maybe we wouldn't have freedom and democracy if not for religion. I'm sure morality was better than being ruled by murderous pagans but I do think religion has held us back mentally in a lot of ways. For example stem cell. Maybe we'd have cures already if bible thumpers didn't cry over dead fetus'
> ...


I'm watching a pbs history of the Greeks show. They are explaining how religion played an important role in Greece becoming what it was. I'll give you that religion had/has it's benefits. It's not all bad of course.

I still think the 8th century BC Greeks made it all up though.  Homer is an example of humans creative imagination


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## yiostheoy (Jun 28, 2016)

Delta4Embassy said:


> At least 4 dead, 14 injured in Maryland crash
> 
> "At least four people were killed and 14 others injured after a church van crashed into a pickup truck and caught fire in Hyattsville, Md. on Sunday, according to local authorities."
> 
> What's the point of a god who never prevents this sort of thing. Church vans crash all the time.


Philosophy addresses this issue.

The answer is that God is not an interfering god.  He/She/It/They have created us and all around us and then they have given us freedom which they have apparently resolved NOT to rescind.

You probably need to study Philosophy to get a better grip on reality and humankind's understanding of it.


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## sealybobo (Jun 28, 2016)

First people to stop blaming the gods for natural occurances. Greeks. Thales. 624 years before Christ.


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## yiostheoy (Jun 28, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Boss said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Herodotus tells us that Greek religion came from Egypt.

If you love Greek history you should get a copy of Herodotus' book "Histories" from a local paperback bookstore and read it.


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## sealybobo (Jun 28, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Boss said:
> ...


I can't believe Greeks were practicing democracy 500 years before the Jesus myth started. 

I'm Greek and very proud of our history


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## Billy_Kinetta (Jun 28, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Homer is an example of humans creative imagination



Mmmhmm.


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## Boss (Jun 28, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> I can't believe Greeks were practicing democracy 500 years before the Jesus myth started.



I can't believe that you actually think we live in a democracy or that is what our founders established. Pure democracy and "all men are created equal" are two entirely different precepts. In a pure democracy, all men are equal to whatever the majority decides.


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## Edward_Palamar (Jun 29, 2016)

*Matthew 23:9  Wycliffe Bible (WYC)*

9 And do not ye call to you a father on earth [And do not ye call to you a father upon earth], for one is your Father, that is in heavens.



Boss said:


> The Father of Our Nation, George Washington, said, _"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." _I would think he knew what he was talking about.


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## sealybobo (Jun 29, 2016)

Edward_Palamar said:


> *Matthew 23:9  Wycliffe Bible (WYC)*
> 
> 9 And do not ye call to you a father on earth [And do not ye call to you a father upon earth], for one is your Father, that is in heavens.
> 
> ...


Wycliffe Bible? How many versions are there? What does the zycleff bible say?


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## Edward_Palamar (Jun 29, 2016)

You can do some research online regarding your questions, but I can also tell you that John Wycliffe was the first man to translate into the English language by handwriting the contents of the Holy Bible in 1378 A.D.

The devil hated him so much for doing so that years after brother John Wycliffe was buried, his body was exhumed and burnt.

There have even been cyberdevils at wikipedia working against our good brother St. John Wycliffe.

As for brother George Washington, I have seen and met him resurrected.

He has worked in the laundry at the old folk's home in Phoenixville, PA.



sealybobo said:


> Edward_Palamar said:
> 
> 
> > *Matthew 23:9  Wycliffe Bible (WYC)*
> ...


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## Edward_Palamar (Jul 1, 2016)

Then again, what good can come out of Michigan?


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## Bonzi (Jul 7, 2016)

You don't believe because you have not been enlightened.

That's all.


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## Slyhunter (Jul 7, 2016)

Bonzi said:


> You don't believe because you have not been enlightened.
> 
> That's all.


You mean brainwashed.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 7, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> Bonzi said:
> 
> 
> > You don't believe because you have not been enlightened.
> ...


Nope, he means you are an ignorant, amoral wretch, but he is just too polite.

One of the key advances of human civilization's advance was to realize that there must be a Creator. This was concluded based on the Infinite Regression Fallacy indicating the finite duration of the flow of time. It was also based on the Teleological, Cosmological, Ontological arguments for the existence of God, conclusions reached centuries before these Greek philosophers encountered the theology of Judaism.  Modern science and Mathematics is providing considerable support to these arguments via the Big Bang Theory, String Theory, Quantum Mechanics and the observed 'Fine Tujning' of the Universe.

But no one can make you accept the idea that the evidence for the existence of a Creator is overwhelming.

Just like no one can make you wipe your own ass and stop jacking off to internet porn.


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## Slyhunter (Jul 7, 2016)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Bonzi said:
> ...


"must be" is fiction. Who created the creator.


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## BreezeWood (Jul 7, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


.


JimBowie1958 said:


> One of the key advances of human civilization's advance was to realize that there must be a Creator.





Slyhunter said:


> "must be" is fiction. Who created the creator.




there is creation whether or not there is a creator and the hope is there is a path for a beings Spirit to exist outside its physiology and to continue living within the Everlasting.

.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 7, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> "must be" is fiction. Who created the creator.


You are an idiot. The Creator existed before the flow of time did. There is no 'before', you fucking moron.

Shit, this is the kind of asinine moronic bullshit that 99% of atheists in this country think is oh so fucking deep, 'Duh, hey man, did you eber think of dis? What was Be4 GOD? Geez, wow, huge dude!'

roflmao


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## Slyhunter (Jul 7, 2016)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > "must be" is fiction. Who created the creator.
> ...


Maybe there is no creator and the Universe is the one that's eternal.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 7, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> Maybe there is no creator and the Universe is the one that's eternal.


That is impossible due to the Infinite Regression Fallacy which I have already mentioned.

Do you grasp this 'thinking thingy' or not?


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## Slyhunter (Jul 7, 2016)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe there is no creator and the Universe is the one that's eternal.
> ...


Well this infinite regression fallacy applies to a creator as well.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 7, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


Lol, no it does not, dumbass, as the one who creates the flow of time is not within it, and therefore there is by definition no 'before' the Creator.

If you cannot grasp that, I cannot remedy your stupidity.


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## Slyhunter (Jul 7, 2016)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > JimBowie1958 said:
> ...


How do you know he controls the flow of time? You're making stuff up.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 7, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> How do you know he controls the flow of time? You're making stuff up.


The Creator created the flow of time in this universe with the Big Bang. 

For our universe there is no before that as there is no time before that.


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## Slyhunter (Jul 8, 2016)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know he controls the flow of time? You're making stuff up.
> ...


Bullshit.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 8, 2016)

Slyhunter said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


IF there is no flow of time, how can there be a BEFORE the beginning of time?


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