# Assault on Waco



## whitehall (Jan 23, 2013)

The same rogue federal agency that gave us the Ruby Ridge Siege and about 15 years later Operation Fast and Furious is responsible for the initial confrontation that ultimately resulted in the incineration of about 80 people in Texas. The time span is interesting. The first attack by the jihad on the World Trade Center happened on 2/26/93 and two days later the ATF attacked a quasi Christian religious center in Waco Texas. Was there a connection? 
The whole thing started when residents of the Branch Dividian center in Waco became interested in old junk British surplus weapons which were legal to possess. The Dividians came to the attention of the ATF because they also sent away for (legal) pamphlets that showed how to rebuild the weapons. The ATF could have stopped Dividian leader David Koresch at the 7-11 or called him in for a visit but they did what leaderless rogue units often do. They tried for the big score with a frontal assault by cammo clad agents in civilian vehicles. Nobody knows who fired the first shot but strangely enough the Dividians did not go quietly and a gunfight erupted. 
President Clinton got what he wanted which was a diversion from the jihad attack on the WTC but the operation turned into a nightmare. By April the feds had enough and a crazy plan was authorized by the Attorney General where Military tanks would break into the compound and pump lethal CS gas (different from CN "tear gas" and illegal to use in prisons) into the buildings. The CS gas was a powder form and had to be used with a carrier gas which turned out to be as volatile as lacquer thinner. The stuff ignited an inferno and about 80 citizens burned to death. Ironically if the Military pulled the same stunt in Iraq or Afghanistan there would be hell to pay but with the cooperation of the media Clinton came away clean.
No illegal weapons as alleged in the initial ATF search warrant were ever recovered.


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## Mad Scientist (Jan 23, 2013)

President Obama would *never* authorize an attack *like that*, because he can use Drones instead.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

I fought the law, and the law won
I fought the law and the law won


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> I fought the law, and the law won
> I fought the law and the law won



The fact is the raid never should have happened. Nothing illegal was going on at the Compound. The ATF secretly took away the FFL licenses of those at the Compound just before the raid and claimed that illegal gun buying had occurred. Not true, every purchase was legal and followed the law.

Embarrassed after 3 months of siege the FBI staged an illegal raid using the military. The FBI KNEW that the wooden structured were set to be burned if attacked, with gasoline placed all over the structures, yet they authorized the use of tanks to not only break through the walls but spew flammable chemicals and fire starting canisters into the mix. 

The compound was no threat during the 3 month siege not one shot was fired from the compound and no one attempted to leave. The FBI murdered those children.

There is no evidence that in the initial raid the civilians even fired on the ATF. The first pictures later taken down and never seen again had an ATF agent spraying a window with automatic fire where 3 of his partners had just entered. The door to the compound recovered intact had no bullet holes originating from inside the compound and was conveniently lost when Congress ask to see it. None of the cars in the parking lot had bullet holes originating from the compound all holes were from outside where the ATF was.


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## there4eyeM (Jan 23, 2013)

And some people complain when 'W' is criticized because it was 'so long ago'!

Not defending Bill, and not saying the assault was really justified, but illegal invasions and countless thousands killed is, anyone would admit, far more serious.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

RetiredGySgt said:


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Shooting Federal Agents is frowned upon. Killing four of them can lead to some pissed off agents

I fought the law and the law won


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## whitehall (Jan 23, 2013)

Another issue is the way the Dividians were treated during the siege. The FBI never offered legal council or even authorized medical treatment to the people inside the "compound". The media made up stories about super weapons and child abuse in order to slant public opinion which would ordinarily tend to be sympathetic. The FBI even tried shoddy torture methods of blasting crazy music at night. If a similar condition happened in an Afghanistan village there would be widespread condemnation and hell to pay if Islamic fundamentalists were incinerated.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

whitehall said:


> Another issue is the way the Dividians were treated during the siege. The FBI never offered legal council or even authorized medical treatment to the people inside the "compound". The media made up stories about super weapons and child abuse in order to slant public opinion which would ordinarily tend to be sympathetic. The FBI even tried shoddy torture methods of blasting crazy music at night. If a similar condition happened in an Afghanistan village there would be widespread condemnation and hell to pay if Islamic fundamentalists were incinerated.



They killed four agents trying to lawfully serve a warrant

That kind of ruins your expectation of soft treatment


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## Oldguy (Jan 23, 2013)

1992--Ruby Ridge Idaho.  President George H.W. Bush unleashed federal marshall's against a perfectly innocent citizen named Randy Weaver who was merely exercising his Constitutional rights.  The incident, which resulted in the deaths of 3 people and the wounding of 2 others, was to distract public attention from the finalizing of the North American Free Trade Agreement, which had been reached the week before.

See?  Two can play this stupid game.  :roll eyes: 

Wanna play some more?


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## jillian (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> whitehall said:
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> > Another issue is the way the Dividians were treated during the siege. The FBI never offered legal council or even authorized medical treatment to the people inside the "compound". The media made up stories about super weapons and child abuse in order to slant public opinion which would ordinarily tend to be sympathetic. The FBI even tried shoddy torture methods of blasting crazy music at night. If a similar condition happened in an Afghanistan village there would be widespread condemnation and hell to pay if Islamic fundamentalists were incinerated.
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but but but... they were white supremacist survivalist nutcases... aren't they supposed to get a pass?


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## Oddball (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> whitehall said:
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> > Another issue is the way the Dividians were treated during the siege. The FBI never offered legal council or even authorized medical treatment to the people inside the "compound". The media made up stories about super weapons and child abuse in order to slant public opinion which would ordinarily tend to be sympathetic. The FBI even tried shoddy torture methods of blasting crazy music at night. If a similar condition happened in an Afghanistan village there would be widespread condemnation and hell to pay if Islamic fundamentalists were incinerated.
> ...


There was no need for the feds to serve the warrant, let alone in such a blatantly hight profile manner and the ATF shot first.

Kind of ruins your lame-assed excusing the incineration of 80+ innocent people.


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

What "lawful warrant" were they attempting to serve?


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## Oddball (Jan 23, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QLiyLFSTF8]Waco - The Rules of Engagement Part One - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Coq_glKkQ]Waco - The Rules of Engagement Part Two - YouTube[/ame]

Full documentary:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCfzLFIT5QM]Waco - The Rules of Engagement (William Gazecki) - YouTube[/ame]


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Oddball said:


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Evidently there WAS a need for federal agents to serve a warrant
Those fuckers shot and killed them

Those who take armed resistance to our government lawfully executing their mission deserve what they get

Surrender would have resulted in a better outcome wouldn't it?

Horrible that 80 people died. But you hook your star and the fate of your family  to a certified nutcase...thats what happens


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Waco - The Rules of Engagement Part One - YouTube
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> Waco - The Rules of Engagement Part Two - YouTube
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Hey everybody

Lets watch four hours of oddballs propaganda


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## Oddball (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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No, there wasn't....The McLennan County Sheriff has said so numerous times.

The BATF dirtbags were trying to make a high profile bust to keep their sorry asses from being downsized and rolled into the FBI....And it blew up in their faces.


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## jillian (Jan 23, 2013)

Si modo said:


> What "lawful warrant" were they attempting to serve?



seriously?

search warrants.

maybe the nutters should have let them in?

or do we defend them, too?


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## Jos (Jan 23, 2013)

More children were killed on that day than Any high school shooting


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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Oh, and let's not forget another of Reno's infamous constitutional disasters:


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Oddball said:


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  I fought the law......and the law won

I fought the law...and the law won


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Si modo said:


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Saving a child who was kidnapped from his father?


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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Who knew you are in favor of police states?

Neither the ATF nor the FBI had a lawful warrant to serve on them.  So, those in Waco were not fighting the "law", as there was nothing lawful that they were doing.


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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US federal agents do not work for foreign nationals.

Now you know.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Si modo said:


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The US decided the boy should be returned to his father.....rightfully so

  I fought the law and the law won


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Si modo said:


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Search Warrant W93-15M for the "residence of Vernon Wayne Howell, and others" signed by "Dennis G. Green (U.S. Judge or Magistrate)" dated 25 February 1993 8:43 pm at Waco, Texas

Waco siege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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Not one single claim the ATF made in the warrant was true. NOT ONE. Further they knew it when they lied to get the warrant. There were at least 3 FFL holders in the Compound and THEY made all the weapons purchases LEGALLY. Also something the ATF knew.

The Waco compound also LEGALLY bought grenade shells. The ATF claimed they had live grenades. NONE were used against the ATF and nothing but Grenade shells were found at the compound.

The ATF claimed they had full auto weapons, another lie, not a single weapon at the compound was full auto.

The Local Sheriff had asked Korush to come to town for questioning on several occasions, He always complied. The local Sheriff had been to the compound on several Occasions, all with out incident.

The film the day of the raid showed 3 ATF agents crawl in a window and then almost immediately after the 4th Agent open fire with automatic weapons fire on THAT window.

Did you know that  2 or 3 of the ATF agents killed were former body Guards of Governor Clinton?  They were being subpenaed to testify in his rape cases. Awful convenient they got gunned down by a fellow ATF agent. 

Again ZERO evidence that the compound fired on anyone. No bullet holes in the cars to support it, none in the door to support it and the buildings were conveniently burned to the ground.

Anyone ever seen an autopsy report on what bullets killed the ATF agents? and whether they were from the front or the back?


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## whitehall (Jan 23, 2013)

The ATF wanted to coerce a US citizen and Army Vet into becoming a federal informant in the Ruby Ridge case which happened during the George HW Bush administration. The feds saw Randy Weaver coming out of a tent sponsored by skinheads at a State Fair and they approached him but he denied knowing anything about the skinhead group and he refused to cooperate. Knowing Weaver was an amateur gunsmith the ATF sent an informant with big bucks to his house asking him to cut the barrel of a shotgun. The informant specified the length which was barely under the legal length by about 1/2 inch and the ATF had him. Weaver was stopped on the road by the ATF and he and his wife were thrown to the ground in the winter slush and handcuffed and brought to the court house where bail was set and a court date was given. Unknown to Weaver the court date was changed and he became a fugitive from justice. During the subsequent siege on his property his boy was shot in the back and killed and Weaver was shot. His wife was shot in the face by an FBI sniper as she held a 18 month old child in her arms. During the "siege" the FBI used a bullhorn to torture Weaver asking him what his wife was cooking while she lay dead in the cabin. Weaver finally surrendered and a jury found him guilty of a single count of failing to appear in court. He was awarded about a million dollars for the unlawful death of his wife and the FBI sniper was indicted for manslaughter in local court but the charges were dismissed by a federal judge. The same rogue group went on to Waco a few years later and then the Fast and Furious debacle.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

RetiredGySgt said:


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Imagine that...

Those assholes in the compound really fucked up didn't they?  If they had allowed the warrant to be served,like real Americans, all evidence would have been thrown out in court

Shows what can go wrong when you take the law into your own hands


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## Oldguy (Jan 23, 2013)

whitehall said:


> The ATF wanted to coerce a US citizen and Army Vet into becoming a federal informant in the Ruby Ridge case which happened during the George HW Bush administration. The feds saw Randy Weaver coming out of a tent sponsored by skinheads at a State Fair and they approached him but he denied knowing anything about the skinhead group and he refused to cooperate. Knowing Weaver was an amateur gunsmith the ATF sent an informant with big bucks to his house asking him to cut the barrel of a shotgun. The informant specified the length which was barely under the legal length by about 1/2 inch and the ATF had him. Weaver was stopped on the road by the ATF and he and his wife were thrown to the ground in the winter slush and handcuffed and brought to the court house where bail was set and a court date was given. Unknown to Weaver the court date was changed and he became a fugitive from justice. During the subsequent siege on his property his boy was shot in the back and killed and Weaver was shot. His wife was shot in the face by an FBI sniper as she held a 18 month old child in her arms. During the "siege" the FBI used a bullhorn to torture Weaver asking him what his wife was cooking while she lay dead in the cabin. Weaver finally surrendered and a jury found him guilty of a single count of failing to appear in court. He was awarded about a million dollars for the unlawful death of his wife and the FBI sniper was indicted for manslaughter in local court but the charges were dismissed by a federal judge. The same rogue group went on to Waco a few years later and then the Fast and Furious debacle.




Timothy McVeigh was a "US citizen and Army vet" too.  Wanna defend him?


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## Oddball (Jan 23, 2013)

Always a great pleasure to watch the liberoidals profess their true love for the police state and its willful murdering of scores of innocent American citizens, including the chiiilllldrrreeeeennnn.

Bravo, you Stalinist knuckle draggers!....Bravo!


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Always a great pleasure to watch the liberoidals profess their true love for the police state and its willful murdering of scores of innocent American citizens, including the chiiilllldrrreeeeennnn.
> 
> Bravo, you Stalinist knuckle draggers!....Bravo!



   I fought the law....and the law won

It always works out like that


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## Oddball (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks for confirming my observation, like a good little Stalinist knuckle dragger.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Thanks for confirming my observation, like a good little Stalinist knuckle dragger.



Oh yes...kill federal agents

A libertarians wet dream


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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No evidence was ever presented that anyone in the Waco Compound killed anyone. Further the Compound was no threat to the FBI or the surrounding community. There was absolutely no reason to originally raid the place and absolutely no reason to stage a tank lead assault on buildings with children in them that were laced with gasoline. All KNOWN to the FBI.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 23, 2013)

whitehall said:


> The same rogue federal agency that gave us the Ruby Ridge Siege and about 15 years later Operation Fast and Furious is responsible for the initial confrontation that ultimately resulted in the incineration of about 80 people in Texas. The time span is interesting. The first attack by the jihad on the World Trade Center happened on 2/26/93 and two days later the ATF attacked a quasi Christian religious center in Waco Texas. Was there a connection?
> The whole thing started when residents of the Branch Dividian center in Waco became interested in old junk British surplus weapons which were legal to possess. The Dividians came to the attention of the ATF because they also sent away for (legal) pamphlets that showed how to rebuild the weapons. The ATF could have stopped Dividian leader David Koresch at the 7-11 or called him in for a visit but they did what leaderless rogue units often do. They tried for the big score with a frontal assault by cammo clad agents in civilian vehicles. Nobody knows who fired the first shot but strangely enough the Dividians did not go quietly and a gunfight erupted.
> President Clinton got what he wanted which was a diversion from the jihad attack on the WTC but the operation turned into a nightmare. By April the feds had enough and a crazy plan was authorized by the Attorney General where Military tanks would break into the compound and pump lethal CS gas (different from CN "tear gas" and illegal to use in prisons) into the buildings. The CS gas was a powder form and had to be used with a carrier gas which turned out to be as volatile as lacquer thinner. The stuff ignited an inferno and about 80 citizens burned to death. Ironically if the Military pulled the same stunt in Iraq or Afghanistan there would be hell to pay but with the cooperation of the media Clinton came away clean.
> No illegal weapons as alleged in the initial ATF search warrant were ever recovered.



The only person responsible for Waco was David Koresh. End of story...Next....


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## Oddball (Jan 23, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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Incinerate dozens of  innocent women and children in cold blood....A Stalinist's wet dream.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 23, 2013)

Si modo said:


> Oh, and let's not forget another of Reno's infamous constitutional disasters:



Reno did the right thing there, too....


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## Dr Grump (Jan 23, 2013)

Oddball said:


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Or, in this case, David Koresh's....


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## jillian (Jan 23, 2013)

RetiredGySgt said:


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crimes didn't have to be proven in ADVANCE of arresting and charging koresh and his henchmen. all he had to do was surrender. if he was innocent, it would have been sorted out.

instead he was responsible for the deaths of all those people.

the fact that anyone finds cause to justify that is truly stomach-turning.


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

Oh, for craps sake...anyone with half a brain knows that the Waco siege was a complete clusterfuck by the feds.

http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf

Start on p. 45.  

Basically, the Special Counsel concluded that certain FBI and Department of Justice officials failed to disclose to the Attorney General, Congress, the courts, counsel for the Davidians, and the public, evidence and information about the use of pyrotechnic tear gas rounds until August 1999. *Thier failure resulted from a combination of the inappropriate handling of evidence and the dereliction of duty by FBI and Department of Justice employees. As more fully set out below, the Special Counsel has concluded that some of these employees also obstructed the investigation.*


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## Oddball (Jan 23, 2013)

They don't give a fuck...Their boy Bubba Clintoon and super dyke Reno could both have been caught together in bed with the proverbial dead woman _*and*_ the live boy and the leftbats would marvel at it.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

RetiredGySgt said:


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Sorry, this is the United States and you are not above the law

They killed four agents and are required by law to surrender or pay he consequences.  They chose to pay the consequences


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

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Your glee at the incineration of so many is noted.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 23, 2013)

Si modo said:


> Your glee at the incineration of so many is noted.



I don't know of anybody who was happy about the outcome.

And, no, you are totally wrong if you think "everybody knew it was a clusterfuck' by the feds.

it was the actions of a narcisstic, egomanical, psychotic loon that caused this tragedy.


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## rightwinger (Jan 23, 2013)

Si modo said:


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Take it up with your poster child David Koresh


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## Dr Grump (Jan 23, 2013)

Oddball said:


> They don't give a fuck...Their boy Bubba Clintoon and super dyke Reno could both have been caught together in bed with the proverbial dead woman _*and*_ the live boy and the leftbats would marvel at it.



Is your dogma and train of thought so vacuous, so immovable, so rigid, so fucked up, that you would rather DIE in a fire and hail of bullets than let natural justice take its course.

All Koresh had to do, was surrender to the authorities, let them go through the motions and get it sorted. if they were in the wrong he would be a multi-millionaire by now, Reno's career would be down the toilet along with a huge number of ATF officers.

instead he decided to shoot it out. his fault, his problem. The US, like any western country, is a nation of laws. You may not like those laws, and some of them suck for sure, but you are still a nation of laws. Nobody is above them....not even Koresh. Do some people get away with stuff, and others get caught up in stuff that is not of their doing? Sure. But in the wash, in the end, MOST of the time things end up OK.

Koresh is a multiple murderer and, if there was a hell, he'd be there....


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## whitehall (Jan 23, 2013)

Oldguy said:


> whitehall said:
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> > The ATF wanted to coerce a US citizen and Army Vet into becoming a federal informant in the Ruby Ridge case which happened during the George HW Bush administration. The feds saw Randy Weaver coming out of a tent sponsored by skinheads at a State Fair and they approached him but he denied knowing anything about the skinhead group and he refused to cooperate. Knowing Weaver was an amateur gunsmith the ATF sent an informant with big bucks to his house asking him to cut the barrel of a shotgun. The informant specified the length which was barely under the legal length by about 1/2 inch and the ATF had him. Weaver was stopped on the road by the ATF and he and his wife were thrown to the ground in the winter slush and handcuffed and brought to the court house where bail was set and a court date was given. Unknown to Weaver the court date was changed and he became a fugitive from justice. During the subsequent siege on his property his boy was shot in the back and killed and Weaver was shot. His wife was shot in the face by an FBI sniper as she held a 18 month old child in her arms. During the "siege" the FBI used a bullhorn to torture Weaver asking him what his wife was cooking while she lay dead in the cabin. Weaver finally surrendered and a jury found him guilty of a single count of failing to appear in court. He was awarded about a million dollars for the unlawful death of his wife and the FBI sniper was indicted for manslaughter in local court but the charges were dismissed by a federal judge. The same rogue group went on to Waco a few years later and then the Fast and Furious debacle.
> ...



If you want to compare an Army Veteran who was minding his own business and who's son was shot in the back and his wife was shot in the face while holding a baby and was awarded a million dollars to an Army Veteran who was a domestic terrorist and was executed go ahead. It's weird but go ahead.


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## Dr Grump (Jan 23, 2013)

whitehall said:


> The same rogue group went on to Waco a few years later and then the Fast and Furious debacle.



US marshalls were responsible for Ruby Ridge. Not the ATF...


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

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You should read the Danforth report.  Koresh was not alone in fault...far, very far, from it.


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## Si modo (Jan 23, 2013)

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Marshals and the FBI, one of whom was convicted of manslaughter.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2013)

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have you ever bothered actually looking at the report?

http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf

I'll direct your attention to page 4, et seq. ... Conclusions of the Special Counsel:



> *The government of the United States and its agents are not responsible for the April 19, 1993, tragedy at Waco.* The government:
> (a)	did not cause the fire; (b)	did not direct gunfire at the Branch Davidian complex; and (c)	did not improperly employ the armed forces of the United States. Responsibility for the tragedy of Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and
> their leader, Vernon Howell, also known as David Koresh
> (a)	shot and killed four ATF agents on February 28, 1993, and wounded 20 others;
> ...



you're welcome.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2013)

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really? which marshal was convicted?



> FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho, prosecutor just before the statute of limitations for the crime of manslaughter expired, but the trial was removed to federal court and quickly dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity.[63] The decision to dismiss the charges was reversed by an en banc panel of the Ninth Circuit, which held that enough uncertainty about the facts of the case existed for Horiuchi to stand trial on state manslaughter charges.[64] Ultimately, the then-sitting Boundary County Prosecutor, Brett Benson, who had defeated Woodbury in the 2000 election, decided to drop the charges because he felt it was unlikely the state could prove the case and too much time had passed. Yagman, the special prosecutor, responded that he "could not disagree more with this decision than I do."[65]
> Kevin Harris was also indicted for the first-degree murder of DUSM Bill Degan, but the charge was dismissed on grounds of double jeopardy because he had been acquitted in the federal criminal trial on the same charge in 1993.[66]



Ruby Ridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

feel free to return to stomping around the board insulting me now.


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## Wicked Jester (Jan 24, 2013)

rightwinger said:


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Oh yes....dead children

A liberals reason to jack off


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2013)

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the difference is no one celebrates dead children.


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## Wicked Jester (Jan 24, 2013)

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Except if it's the anniversary of Roe v Wade.


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## Si modo (Jan 24, 2013)

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Call me a racist or a drunk, and I'll be pleased to insult you again.

I give what I get.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2013)

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no bubbalah... you get what you give.

now how about admitting you were wrong.

we'll wait.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2013)

s'matter, si? can't admit you were wrong?


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## westwall (Jan 24, 2013)

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That's the same mentality that allowed the Nazis to gain power and which allowed the horrble final solution to occur.  I suggest you wake up RW before you piss some bureaucrat off and there's no one around to watch you get bundled off to the gulag.

You should be ashamed.


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## westwall (Jan 24, 2013)

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Hi Jillian, I suggest you watch the Academy Award winning documentary called "Waco, The Rules of Engagement."  It will make you question everything the government has put out on the attack which was at best a screwup and at worst a criminal endeavor.


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## Oddball (Jan 24, 2013)

The cranks sure love them some straight up murder of innocents, as long as the killers carry that (D) by their names.


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## jillian (Jan 24, 2013)

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i may have seen it. i don't remember. but really, to me, what's important is that he was told ot come out. he didn't. all those people died because of him.


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## whitehall (Jan 24, 2013)

The Waco debacle teaches historians a couple of things. #1 even in modern times the government can get away with atrocities as long as the mainstream media complies. #2 for all you doomsday preppers forget it. The government has all the guns.


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## whitehall (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > The Waco debacle teaches historians a couple of things. #1 even in modern times the government can get away with atrocities as long as the mainstream media complies. #2 for all you doomsday preppers forget it. The government has all the guns.
> ...



I don't know what to tell the families of the four ATF agents. Maybe the Clinton/Reno regime could shed light on the lack of leadership that led to the confrontation.


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## Oddball (Jan 24, 2013)

whitehall said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...


I cannot comment on that, as the investigation is ongoing.


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## westwall (Jan 24, 2013)

jillian said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...








Which is true.  However the ATF did lie to a judge to obtain the warrant, and the warrant, of which I have a copy, lists things that are completely legal.  Not one listed item in the warrant was illegal.

Koresh was a stone cold ass and I can honestly care less that he died.  However 21 absolutely innocent children died because of the actions the FBI initiated on the final assault.

They need not have died.


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## westwall (Jan 24, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Jillian, I suggest you watch the Academy Award winning documentary called "Waco, The Rules of Engagement."  It will make you question everything the government has put out on the attack which was at best a screwup and at worst a criminal endeavor.
> ...







I found it to quite balanced and when the documentarians were interviewed it was very obvious that they had thought it was a straight up case of a loon who led his flock to disaster, but at the end they felt the government was as culpable as Koresh and that the final assault was _meant_ to kill everyone.

They were very pro government side of the story going in, but as they investigated they switched completely to feeling the FBI intentionally killed the people inside.


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## Oddball (Jan 25, 2013)

Goddmmit are you one naïve sumbitch.

It wasn't a conspiracy...It's business as usual.


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## Oddball (Jan 25, 2013)




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## Si modo (Jan 25, 2013)

westwall said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


And, the Danforth Report strongly hints at the same.


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## Si modo (Jan 25, 2013)

jillian said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


You called me a racist, I told you to fuck off.

You called me a drunk, I called you a bitch.

I can easily link to them, or would you like to lie about that again?  I think it would be cool if you did the latter, THEN I link to them.

Yes, I was wrong about saying conviction.  The FBI agent was indicted for manslaughter.  At least it ruined his career.  Who needs that sort of shit as a federal agent?


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## jillian (Jan 25, 2013)

Si modo said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...




no. you started your nonsense on other threads.... posting insulting things. calling me a moron,.... which i actually initially found surprising since we had had some very nice discussions in pm's. and i was like.. ."huh"? "did someone steal her login???"

i never called you a racist. i said you were SUPPORTING racists. that is not the same. Frankly, I don't understand how you didn't understand that thinking it's ok to celebrate Lee-Jackson day and saying that MLK Jr Day was "pandering" didn't make you look very good. 

i said 'don't drink and post' because you sounded irrational. i never called you a 'drunk'. there is a difference between being a drunk and having a few drinks.

you're also still misrepresenting the special prosecutor's report.... the conclusion drawn was that "THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME FOR WACO IS DAVID KORESH" Whatever errors of judgment were made, they were not considered at fault.

so it was not "close".


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## Si modo (Jan 25, 2013)

jillian said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


Oh, how fucking lame of you.

Cool...denial that you insulted me twice, BEFORE my insults to you.

I'll get the links....


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## jillian (Jan 25, 2013)

Si modo said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



you do that snookie... 

but i'd suggest you go back a ways to the first time you called me a 'moron'. that would have been a while ago... not one narrow little conversation. 

and still you haven't admitted you're wrong. and you still haven't admitted that you defend racists



p.s. if you think for a second, i'm not going to return an insult to someone who seems to get pacic-stricken when she is shown to be wrong or faces any type of challenge, then you're wackier than i thought.

the 'lame' is on the other foot. (in case no one pointed it out to you, calling someone 'lame' is an insult...along with moron)

and, honestly, your rage is getting tiresome.


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## whitehall (Jan 25, 2013)

jillian said:


> westwall said:
> 
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> > jillian said:
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If we treated an Al-Queda stronghold the way we treated Americans at Waco everyone responsible would be in prison. I watched the hearings with big dumb Janet Reno on the stand and when she started comparing military tanks to a used car she was cut off in mid sentence by Chuck Schumer and the subject was changed. The search warrant was faulty, it's against the law to use the military against American citizens and what did you think would happen when you pumped a chemical with the volatility of lacquer thinner into a wood structure?


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## Si modo (Jan 25, 2013)

jillian said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


Cool grudging, Jillian!

I don't grudge.  I just give what I get when I get it and am over it.

Funny how folks are so different.

Don't project your panic onto me.  I would bet good money that I have admitted errors more than most on this board.  My ego isn't so weak, so admitting an error means nothing to me.

You wanna keep up your insulting projections?


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## westwall (Jan 25, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...







I am merely repeating what the producers of an Academy Award winning documentary (and it would be hard to get more mainstream than that)  had to say.  I suggest you watch it again.


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## L.K.Eder (Jan 25, 2013)

westwall said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



you seem to lean quite hard on this "Academy Award winning"-crutch.

alas, it did not win.


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## Oddball (Jan 25, 2013)

The AMPAS is good enough for Michele Mooooooore and Owlgore, it's good enough for that documentary.


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## Sallow (Jan 25, 2013)

Si modo said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Sure they did.

Christian Terrorist Pedophile David Koresh was illegally involved in the sale of grenade casings.

ATF agents had a legal warrant to search the compound.

The terrorists in the compound open fire on federal agents.

What happened after that is completely the fault of the terrorists.


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## Oddball (Jan 25, 2013)

You spit shine them jackboots yourself, or do you have them sent out?


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## Si modo (Jan 25, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You really should read the Danforth Report.  The FBI and ATF fucked up and tried very hard to cover up their fuck ups.  Even an FBI agent was indicted for manslaughter.

Cops and federal agents are far from perfect, and when they fuck up, their natural reaction is to lie, obstruct investigations, and cover up.

Such honor.

Oh, and Koresh was a whackadoodle, but there really is no death penalty for being whacked in the head.


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## jillian (Jan 25, 2013)

Si modo said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



that's still your story, huh?

the danforth report WHICH IS LINKED EARLIER IN THIS THREAD blamed NO ONE BUT DAVID KORESH for what happened at Waco.

but keep repeating the same falsehood over and over and over....


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## Sallow (Jan 25, 2013)

Oddball said:


> You spit shine them jackboots yourself, or do you have them sent out?



How's life in Somalia these days? That V8 Interceptor still keeping ahead of the land pirates?


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## Sallow (Jan 25, 2013)

Si modo said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Their fuck up was not bashing the door down right after those agents were killed and offing every terrorist holding a gun.

Letting Koresh warble for over a month was idiotic and a disgrace.


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## jillian (Jan 25, 2013)

whitehall said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



if there was an al queda stronghold and they were told to exit a building, and instead caused a debacle the way koresh did, you'd be saying they got what was coming to them.... as would I.


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## westwall (Jan 26, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...







They were dummy grenade bodies that can be purchased at any surplus store in the US (except for good 'ol CA), they would mount them on plaques with a number and a "Complaint Dept Take a Number".  

In other words they were purely a novelty and completely legal.  As was everything they did.  In fact, Koresh was wanted on a attempted murder charge and the Sheriff drove out and peacefully picked him up some years before.

The initial assault was completely unneccessary and done purely for show (the media had been told to be at the location before the attack began) and led to the terrible deaths of four agents.

All for nothing but a press release to justify the ATF budget requests.


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## westwall (Jan 26, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...








There is substantive evidence that the ATF fired the first shots.  Before they had identified themselves.  That's one of the reasons the front door disappeared, too much verifiable evidence so it had to go.


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## whitehall (Jan 26, 2013)

westwall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



"Grenade casings"? You mean those old inert WW2 pineapple grenades that you can buy in any surplus store?


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## whitehall (Jan 26, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I don't believe the ATF ever used the words "Christian terrorist pedophile" on  the search warrant. Those words were made up by radical hate filled lefties to justify the incineration of 80 men women and children. It's interesting that the left defends organizations like NAMBLA and promotes "tolerance" for jihad radicals but hates Christians enough to kill them.


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## whitehall (Jan 26, 2013)

Conclusion?  Do the Clinton defenders concede that the Waco Invasion was a scary example of what is in store for Americans who dare to challenge the criminal behavior of federal law enforcement agencies?


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## whitehall (Jan 26, 2013)

Scary scenario for Americans when they see the left wing's tolerance for abuse by the administration as long as the sleaze bag is a democrat.


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## Againsheila (Jan 26, 2013)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > I fought the law, and the law won
> ...



I remember one witness saying that if as they tried to flee the burning building, they were being shot at by our military.  Many of those people were killed as they were fleeing and they didn't have guns while they fled.


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## Againsheila (Jan 26, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



So if 4 armed men tried to sneak into your second story window, you wouldn't start shooting?


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## Againsheila (Jan 26, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > Another issue is the way the Dividians were treated during the siege. The FBI never offered legal council or even authorized medical treatment to the people inside the "compound". The media made up stories about super weapons and child abuse in order to slant public opinion which would ordinarily tend to be sympathetic. The FBI even tried shoddy torture methods of blasting crazy music at night. If a similar condition happened in an Afghanistan village there would be widespread condemnation and hell to pay if Islamic fundamentalists were incinerated.
> ...



How do you lawfully serve a warrant through a second story window?


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## Againsheila (Jan 26, 2013)

Oldguy said:


> 1992--Ruby Ridge Idaho.  President George H.W. Bush unleashed federal marshall's against a perfectly innocent citizen named Randy Weaver who was merely exercising his Constitutional rights.  The incident, which resulted in the deaths of 3 people and the wounding of 2 others, was to distract public attention from the finalizing of the North American Free Trade Agreement, which had been reached the week before.
> 
> See?  Two can play this stupid game.  :roll eyes:
> 
> Wanna play some more?



Which goes to show that our government hasn't been OUR government for some time, doesn't it?  Why do you want to turn this into a dem vs rep thing?  The fact is that both parties have sold out the American people.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > Another issue is the way the Dividians were treated during the siege. The FBI never offered legal council or even authorized medical treatment to the people inside the "compound". The media made up stories about super weapons and child abuse in order to slant public opinion which would ordinarily tend to be sympathetic. The FBI even tried shoddy torture methods of blasting crazy music at night. If a similar condition happened in an Afghanistan village there would be widespread condemnation and hell to pay if Islamic fundamentalists were incinerated.
> ...


RW,

Did you know most of the surviving Davidians were acquitted on all counts in a Texas state court because their actions were considered defensive, therefore lawful?  11 in Texas Sect Are Acquitted Of Key Charges - New York Times

One of the things revealed in that trial is the fact that no actual warrant was presented to Koresh at the outset and ATF could not ascertain which agent, if any, had the warrant.  It is believed the reason for this is issuance of the warrant was based on both false and irrelevent information, such as charges of drug manufacturing and sexual abuse of children.  Those allegations were investigated and found to be false well in advance of the warrant application.  In Texas, such a defective warrant is invalid and its enforcement may be resisted.  Also, the agents' use of force was illegal and the Davidians had a right under Texas law to defend themselves and their property.    

If what you mean by "the law won" is the law got away with murder, then I suppose you're right.  But the big loser in that event was the American People who were made to see what happens to law-abiding citizens who resist the oppressive actions of federal goons.  They will murder you and your children and get away with it.  

What I don't understand it why you seem so content with that.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

whitehall said:


> Scary scenario for Americans when they see the left wing's tolerance for abuse by the administration as long as the sleaze bag is a democrat.


I don't know about that.  I was, and continue to be, totally disappointed by the general public's passive acceptance of what happened at Waco and their lack of critical reaction to the phony "hearing" that followed.  And I believe the public inertia existed on both sides of the political aisle.  It appears the public was all-too-willing to accept government's version and blame the Davidians for what happened.    

If I'm mistaken, correct me.


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## Oddball (Jan 27, 2013)

MikeK said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > Scary scenario for Americans when they see the left wing's tolerance for abuse by the administration as long as the sleaze bag is a democrat.
> ...


You're not mistaken.

Blind squirrel, meet the acorn.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 27, 2013)

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that?  Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.


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## Againsheila (Jan 27, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.
> 
> In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.
> 
> Don't want to do that?  Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.



I do not believe the branch Davidians started the fire.  I watched as that tank crashed into that building and the fire started, probably the tank knocked over one of their oil lamps.  It spread rapidly from there.  Not saying there wasn't something there to help the fire spread faster but it didn't start until that tank tried to take down that wall and that's exactly where it started.

I'm sure the residents of Germany all thought the same way you do as the Nazi's came to take away the Jews.


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## whitehall (Jan 27, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.
> 
> In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.
> 
> Don't want to do that?  Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.



Amazingly similar to nazi rhetoric.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 27, 2013)

Againsheila said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.
> ...



False.  They started the fire when law enforcement patience ran out, after 50+ days.



> I'm sure the residents of Germany all thought the same way you do as the Nazi's came to take away the Jews.



So now the U.S. government are Nazis?  

Branch Davidians were targeted for extermination by the U.S. government?

Please stop for just a few seconds before you type, so that you don't look like a dunce.  Because that's some stupid shit.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.
> 
> In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.
> 
> Don't want to do that?  Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.


Orwell was right.  

You are a precise manifestation of the authoritarian/submissive personality, as well as a prime example of what is happening to America.  And it's a goddam shame.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 27, 2013)

MikeK said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.
> ...


Explain, please.


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## whitehall (Jan 27, 2013)

The left's tolerance for atrocities is determined by politics. Generally the people who were interested in the Ruby Ridge siege were critical of the administration even though a republican George H.W. Bush was in office. Democrats generally don't have much use for the Police but they justified the atrocity at Waco simply because it happened during a democrat administration. The same goes for Fast Furious. The hypocrites on the left seem to care about the welfare of illegal aliens but when the democrat administration ships enough weapons to Mexico to kill about 400 innocent citizens and a US Border Patrol officer it's fine because a democrat is in the WH.


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## Againsheila (Jan 27, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...




I watched the film, several times.  It started exactly when that tank broke into that wall.  And no, I'm not calling our government nazis, I'm saying you're thinking just like the German's did as the Nazi's took over.  And yea, what our government did at Waco, that was Nazi like, so was Ruby Ridge.  There are a lot of things our government has done to make me ashamed of them but those two are the worst.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


In the way they finalized the Waco standoff?  Absolutely -- the main difference being the comparative subtlety in the way it was done.  The original Nazis would have done the same thing much sooner and without any remorseful pretense.  



> Branch Davidians were targeted for extermination by the U.S. government?


No.  No one has suggested that.  

They were victims of incompetent, overly aggressive, excessively authoritarian, sadistic federal goons and a totally corrupt, equally incompetent Executive branch of government.



> Please stop for just a few seconds before you type, so that you don't look like a dunce.  Because that's some stupid shit.


The need to use personal insults to make a point is what determines stupidity and points out who the dunces are.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


If you need an explanation I refer you to Dr. Erich Fromm's book, _Escape From Freedom,_ in which he devotes an entire chapter to describing in layman terms the authoritarian personality in all its forms, its origins, and its effects on a democratic society.  (Available from Amazon -- now in paperpack.)  

And if you don't know what I mean by saying Orwell was right, read _Nineteen Eighty Four._  While the year 1984 has come and gone, we surely are entering the era of Nineteen Eighty Four.  And those American citizens who are capable of reason but who believe what happened at Waco is justifiable are evidence of that.  

The worst is yet to come.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

westwall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...


I'm glad there are some who have taken the time to learn these critical facts.  Maybe there is hope.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

whitehall said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



Exactly.

The ATF's warrant was issued on the basis of such false and erroneous allegations as _drug manufacturing_ and _child molestation,_ charges which had been thoroughly investigated and determined to be unfounded by the local sheriff and the Texas Department of Social Services long before the warrant application was submitted.  

The question of why the magistrate who issued that warrant has not been recalled was never raised.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...


Really?

Do you know there were 21 children, some as young as two, innocent little tots, living in that building?  Do you also know that Koresh had threatened mass suicide if an attempt was made to forcibly enter?  

Regardless of any concerns, about criminality or anything else, having cause to believe David Koresh was mentally unstable *how can you justify jeopardizing the safety of those kids?*

Have you thought about this or are you simply responding to the federal brainwash?


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > Really?
> ...


First, I am not a Libertarian.

Last, although you haven't explained your reasoning you believe the government's action, which precipitated the agonizing death by incineration of 21 innocent children, to be "the right thing."  

Is there anything I need to say about you?  I think that says it all.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


I think you can use a bit of education where this topic is concerned.  You can get it here if you're interested:  Assault on Waco

I don't say this to offend you or to be smart-ass, but it's rather obvious you've been the subject of a long-term brainwash and exposure to new ideas is disturbing to you.  So spend some time digesting the facts you'll find via the link.  It might work for you.


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## MikeK (Jan 27, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


Let's try it this way:  

Imagine you are the commander of SWAT team called to a house where a group of cultist bank-robbing murderers have killed several police officers who attempted to serve a warrant.  A number of these murderous cultists have children, twenty of them, most under three years old.  

The leader tells you the cult is prepared to kill all the children and commit mass suicide if you try to break in -- and you have cause to believe these cultists are mentally unstable and probably will act on the threat.

What would you do?


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...







Untrue.  There were multiple sources that state the ATF fired first when they shot the dogs near the front door.  Then when Koresh opened the door someone shot him through the door.  That's why the door disappeared after the final assault.  It would have shown that those claims were accurate.

The fact remains, 21 children and 4 agents were killed because some bureaucrat in the ATF office in Texas wanted to make a name for themselves and justify their budget.

That is shameful, and to hear people like you, who I believe to be educated and thoughtful, blissfully ignore well founded evidence is disappointing.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...







Who cares.  Give them 120 days.  Eventually they run out of food and water and voila, the siege ends peacefully.  There is simply no justification for the killing of 21 innocent children...none.  It is the same as saying "well those darned kids in that school shouldn't have been there.....it's their fault for being there."

Just like those poor kids didn't have a choice, neither did the kids in Texas.  Their fucked up parents put them into that situation...but the government DID have a choice.  It didn't have to push in there like they did...they could have waited...what would have been the issue?  Insolent behavior and felony stupid?  Plus a little contempt of cop thrown in?  Big deal.  That's what the police are paid for.

They are not paid to kill 21 children to make a point about the "rule of law".  The "rule of law" is mandated to SAVE children like that.....not incinerate them.


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## Crackerjaxon (Jan 28, 2013)

I am amazed that supposedly intelligent people condone the slaughter of law-abiding people at Waco.

What fools you are.


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## whitehall (Jan 28, 2013)

MikeK said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > MikeK said:
> ...



Let's try it this way. Imagine four Soldiers were killed approaching an A.-Queda stronghold filled with civilians. Tanks started pouring toxic gas into the compound and a fire incinerated 80 people. The world would be outraged and the commander would no doubt be led away in handcuffs.


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## MikeK (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


It is precisely the case, with one exception; the Davidians were not murderous bank robbers.  They were peaceful, law-abiding citizens who had harmed no one.

The fact that you cannot answer the question I posed should give you pause to think about the hollow nature of your argument.


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## gipper (Jan 28, 2013)

Is it any wonder America has become a police state with so many Americans finding nothing wrong with the governments wanton murder of innocent citizens at Waco?


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 28, 2013)

Ruby Ridge and Waco are the reasons that Amercans can NEVER, EVER allow second amendment rights to be infringed. The United States government is willing and able to murder American citizens - hell, Obama revels in it.

Americans MUST be armed and ready to resist.


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## gipper (Jan 28, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Ruby Ridge and Waco are the reasons that Amercans can NEVER, EVER allow second amendment rights to be infringed. The United States government is willing and able to murder American citizens - hell, Obama revels in it.
> 
> Americans MUST be armed and ready to resist.



Agreed.  Too bad many on the Left are incapable of understanding this simple thing.

We are rapidly coming apart as a nation.  We no longer have common values.  I have nothing common with these foolish Leftists who gladly ignore the Constitution and willingly give up their rights to a state becoming more and more tyrannical.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> Yeah, really peaceful. They shot and killed four ATF agents....
> 
> What was that about giving pause again?



As well they should have. The BATF were home invasion robbers with the express intent of murdering the occupants of the compound. The Davidians did what EVERY American should do in that situation, they shot back at armed criminals who had violent intentions. The BATF were the criminals.

Oh and Gump, I have no love for the Davidians, they were complete freaks.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> The ATF had a search warrant..



Which they did not serve, but instead engaged in a military assault. The BATF were a criminal gang seeking to murder American citizens. The only shame is that any of the attacking BATF scum survived.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...








Then you havn't read my posts...I denounced him quite soundly in my first post.  He was an asshat of the first order and he deserved what happened...to him.  21 innocent children were killed by the government to make a point.

How can you possibly think that that is OK?


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Who cares.  Give them 120 days.  Eventually they run out of food and water and voila, the siege ends peacefully.  There is simply no justification for the killing of 21 innocent children...none.  It is the same as saying "well those darned kids in that school shouldn't have been there.....it's their fault for being there."
> ...







No ones life was in immediate danger...till the government started killing them.  Had the government not attacked those children would still be alive.  Yes, the government would have had to wait for a few more weeks, so what.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
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Then I suggest you learn more about Ruby Ridge.  Weaver was a numbskull but the government was complicit in the deaths there.  That's why after Gerry Spence demolished the prosecutions case he didn't even bother to present a defence case.  It was so clear, to everyone, that the government had acted illegally that the jury found Weaver innocent of all the major charges.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
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> > Dr Grump said:
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So did the Gestapo...doesn't make it right.  Also they didn't bother to bring it with them so they were in violation of both Federal and State law, and the warrant lists not one item that is illegal.  Not one.  I have a copy of the warrant and it is a complete joke.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
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They couldn't serve it because they didn't have it with them.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Then you havn't read my posts...I denounced him quite soundly in my first post.  He was an asshat of the first order and he deserved what happened...to him.  21 innocent children were killed by the government to make a point.
> ...









Here we are in primary agreement, however the government NEVER has the right to take innocent lives.  The government had no compelling need to assault them...period.  They did it to make a point and to save the children they killed them....all of them.

Do you not see how ridiculous your position is?


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## MikeK (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
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They shot and killed four heavily armed men who were trying to break into their residence.  While you might assign god-like authority to badges and uniforms the Davidians did not.  Nor does the state of Texas, which is why eleven surviving Davidians were acquitted of murder charges by a Texas jury.  

No forcible entry warrant had been presented.  ATF could not respond to questioning about specifically which agent had presented a warrant.  ATF could not even specify which of their agents held possession of the warrant.  The probable reason for this obscuration is it has been determined the warrant was _defective_ because it contained false and irrelevant information, such as charges of drug manufacturing and child molestation, neither of which are within the purview of ATF's area of authority, both of which had already been investigated and determined to be unfounded.  In spite of all this obvious wrongdoing the only corrective action taken is two AFT agents were suspended -- and both were quietly reinstated two months later and awarded all back pay.  

(Excerpt)

_In 1994, two ATF supervisory agents, Phillip J. Chojnacki and Charles D. Sarabyn, who were suspended for their roles in leading the Waco raid were reinstated in December 1994, with full back pay and benefits (with a demotion) despite a Treasury Department report of gross negligence. The incident was removed from their personnel files.[23]_

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In Texas, a defective warrant is invalid.  It's basically the same as no warrant.  For that reason, and in accordance with Texas Penal Law (Sec 9.31), the Davidians had a right to refuse entry to ATF and defend themselves against those raiders with an equal degree of the threatened level of force.  So in the final analysis the federal government acted with the presumption that it has the authority to conduct paramilitary raids on the residence of any citizen it chooses to at will and without strict and specific justification.  Is that what you mean by "the rule of law?" http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.31.00.html


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## MikeK (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > So did the Gestapo...doesn't make it right.  Also they didn't bother to bring it with them so they were in violation of both Federal and State law, and the warrant lists not one item that is illegal.  Not one.  I have a copy of the warrant and it is a complete joke.
> ...


Some people would rather resist.  And if they have a legal right to resist, why shouldn't they?  

It wasn't the Davidians who were wrong.  Yet you, and others who think like you, stand against them.  In doing so you stand against yourself, which is what we are trying to help you undersand.  The Davidians rights are your rights.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > So did the Gestapo...doesn't make it right.  Also they didn't bother to bring it with them so they were in violation of both Federal and State law, and the warrant lists not one item that is illegal.  Not one.  I have a copy of the warrant and it is a complete joke.
> ...








You see there is a diiference between what is moral and ethical.  What the Gestapo did was totally moral...for them, however the rest of the free world condemns their actions because while they might have been legal they were far, far from ethical.  

The same rule applys here.  The faulty and completely missing warrant MAKES the ATF initial attack ILLEGAL.  By both state and FEDERAL law.  The Davidians were completely within their right to protect themselves.  That's what is so fucked up about the whole thing.

The four agents who died, did so needlessly, and in violation of the very laws they swore an oath to uphold and protect.

We weren't there so we don't know what the initial attack comprised (thanks to that aforementioned missing door, and yes forensic scientists can glean a great deal of information from that missing door if only it could be found) but, if the ATF shot first then the Davidians are rightfully in fear for their lives and they responded accordingly.

It speaks volumnes that only four agents were killed.  They were outnumbered and many of the Davidians were prior military so would have had no problem killing many, many more.  There is footage of agents in the front driveway of the compound totally exposed so that tells me the Davidians were not shooting outside.  I don't know for certain but I believe the agents were killed inside the building, those outside were left comparitively alone.

That too serves to verify that it was the ATF who fired first and the Davidians were only defending themselves.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Here we are in primary agreement, however the government NEVER has the right to take innocent lives.  The government had no compelling need to assault them...period.  They did it to make a point and to save the children they killed them....all of them.
> ...







In a quick reaction situation I am in firm agreement with you.  The final assault was a very well planned, slow and methodical operation.  The injection of the massive amounts of CS was known to be a serious fire hazard.  The knocking of holes in the walls of the main building would serve to create a draft that would feed the fire and lead to a flashover...all of these things are known, and known well...

Why then did the FBI do everything that they possibly could to ensure that there would be a firestorm?  Why was there no effort whatsoever to reduce the chances of the ensuing fire....not one thing?


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## whitehall (Jan 28, 2013)

It seems the Feds ran up on the compound in a civilian vehicle wearing camouflage and brandishing guns and they were surprised that the Dividians decided to defend themselves. The feds had the Dividian compound surrounded but they never offered legal advice to the people inside. Koresch and others were wounded but the Feds never offered medical assistance. CS gas is toxic at the amount they pumped into the structures but it seems that no consideration was given to the women and children who for all the Feds knew were held against their will. When it was all over the Feds never made an effort to justify the allegations in the initial search warrant. There were no illegal weapons in the "compound". Reno "took responsibility" but in political speech "taking responsibility" means not taking responsibility. After a day or two the Bubba took time from his sodomy schedule in the WH and also took responsibility. Meanwhile the Feds had no idea that the same gang that tried to blow up the WTC were planning an even bigger attempt. Quirky Christians were the new enemy and the Feds had no time for the jihad.


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## whitehall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > You see there is a diiference between what is moral and ethical.  What the Gestapo did was totally moral...for them, however the rest of the free world condemns their actions because while they might have been legal they were far, far from ethical.
> ...



The obvious thing would be to approach the compound with a flag of truce, offer medical attention to the injured and have a face to face including legal council. There is no evidence that the Feds tried that avenue or maybe they would have approached Koresch in the 7-11. The Feds were itching for a fight and they were pissed. We all should know by now that government hearings concerning alleged government atrocities aren't about finding the truth. They are exercises in CYA. We used to rely on the media to monitor government abuse but when they become the propaganda arm of the government there is no pressure to get to the truth, only propaganda. Recently a combat Marine was dragged trough the media slime and court martialed for pissing on an enemy corpse. Imagine of he was involved in the incineration of 80 civilians.


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## westwall (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > You see there is a diiference between what is moral and ethical.  What the Gestapo did was totally moral...for them, however the rest of the free world condemns their actions because while they might have been legal they were far, far from ethical.
> ...








Untrue.  When the behavior or the description fits you use it.  Those who continually invoke that "rule" do so because they are trying deflect the issue and they have no reasonable response so they attempt to shut down the discussion.  

The Nazi's did the exact same thing, just on a larger scale.  I suggest you read "The Nazi Seizure of Power" by William Sheridan Allen.  It is quite illustrating.

All of that aside, it doesn't matter what Joe Blow ATF agent on the ground knew or didn't know.  THEIR bosses DID know and allowed the raid to continue anyway.  Had there been a legit AG, they would have been indicted for criminally negligent homicide at the least.  The door would tell you if the agents shot through it as it was being opened (which was claimed by the Davidians) or if they didn't.


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## gipper (Jan 29, 2013)

Waco is but one event that proves the tyranny potential of the state.  And yet, many Americans are advocates of gun control and even confiscation, whereby law abiding citizens are FORCED by the very same state that has a history of murdering its own citizens, to give up their right of self defense.  How can they be so blind to the dangers of the all powerful state and willingly give up their rights?


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 29, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> They tried to serve it, but were shot at....four people died.



They didn't try to serve it, they went in guns blazing, killed 3 dogs and shot two men, who later died. So 6 people died in the initial assault, 4 of the home invasion murderers and 2 Davidians.



> Look up the names of the ATF agents that were killed. Then go visit their families and say what you have just said here. You'll be eating through a straw for a couple of months, or in traction for six....



Look up the names of the children that were murdered by the BATF and FBI. Then go visit their families and say what you have just said here. You'll be eating through a straw for a couple of months, or in traction for six...


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 29, 2013)

westwall said:


> No ones life was in immediate danger...till the government started killing them.  Had the government not attacked those children would still be alive.  Yes, the government would have had to wait for a few more weeks, so what.



Over the two year period prior to the murders, David Koresh had been brought into questioning on three occasions by the County Sheriff, all without incident. HAD the BATF wanted Koresh arrested, they would have had the Sheriff's pick him up. 

But the BATF was there to kill Koresh as a statement to Americans about the power of government and the price of defying federal authority


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 29, 2013)

westwall said:


> Then I suggest you learn more about Ruby Ridge.  Weaver was a numbskull but the government was complicit in the deaths there.  That's why after Gerry Spence demolished the prosecutions case he didn't even bother to present a defence case.  It was so clear, to everyone, that the government had acted illegally that the jury found Weaver innocent of all the major charges.



And let's not forget that an Idaho grand jury swore out a warrant for Lon Horiuchi on the charge of murder. Horiuchi is the FBI assassin who murdered Viki Weaver as she stood holding her infant in her arms.


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## whitehall (Jan 29, 2013)

There was a time in history when the radical left demonstrated against the heavy handed methods employed by the government but it was just for show. Left wing radical hypocrites actually love government tyranny as long as the abuser has a "D" after his name.


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## Againsheila (Jan 29, 2013)

whitehall said:


> There was a time in history when the radical left demonstrated against the heavy handed methods employed by the government but it was just for show. Left wing radical hypocrites actually love government tyranny as long as the abuser has a "D" after his name.



Same goes for the right wing and the letter "R".

Until people stop electing dems and reps, our country will continue it's decline.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 29, 2013)

westwall said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > MikeK said:
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Total bullshit.

Come back when you get a fucking clue what you're talking about, asshole.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 29, 2013)

westwall said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
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> > westwall said:
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Except the ATF agents who were killed.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 29, 2013)

westwall said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
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And his stupid, irresponsible actions got his wife and son killed.

Nice tradeoff.


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## westwall (Jan 29, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> westwall said:
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> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...







 Jess Guy is a good friend of mine and was head of the ATF office in San Jose when the shit went down.  I have it from the horses mouth as he and all the other good ATF agents were appalled at what went down in Waco.

You couldn't find your ass with both hands without help, so kindly go fuck yourself you ignorant prick.


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## westwall (Jan 29, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> westwall said:
> 
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> > Dr Grump said:
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Yeah, funny how when they attack someone without a warrant the people are supposed to just let the assault happen.

Nice to meet you Reinhard...


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## westwall (Jan 29, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> westwall said:
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Yet again you demonstrate what a complete asshat you are.  Until you read the facts of the case (I have, you clearly havn't) your opinion is meaningless.  You quite litterally don't know shit about what you speak so your input is about as useful as a mosquito bite.


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## whitehall (Jan 29, 2013)

Why does the left feel the need to defend every democrat administration? Anybody can see that Waco was a fukup from day one but the left just won't admit it because they have a stake in the power and the guns of the federal government. If they admit that the ATF made criminal mistakes they might not be on board for whatever new assaults on the Constitution are in the works courtesy of the Hussein administration.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 29, 2013)

westwall said:


> Synthaholic said:
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Who gives a shit?  If he wasn't involved with the operation, he was out of the loop.


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## whitehall (Jan 29, 2013)

The bottom line is that today's radical lefties have to embrace the very agencies that yesterday's lefties hated because they think they are close to the revolution. As Chairman Mao once said, "political power comes at the point of a gun".


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## westwall (Jan 29, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> westwall said:
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Wrong again buckwheat, he was one of those called in to investigate the operation, it was his recomndation that the supervisors involved be prosecuted.


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## westwall (Jan 29, 2013)

whitehall said:


> The bottom line is that today's radical lefties have to embrace the very agencies that yesterday's lefties hated because they think they are close to the revolution. As Chairman Mao once said, "political power comes at the point of a gun".







Yep.  I remember back in the 1970's the most popular bumper sticker said "QUESTION AUTHORITY".  Asshats like synthroid here, well they will roll over and spread their cheeks wide for the Dear Leader.


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## MikeK (Jan 30, 2013)

Dr Grump said:


> MikeK said:
> 
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Let's explore some of the facts in this question.

First, according to the testimony of several Davidian survivors and a number of the ATF raiders who were at the front door when Koresh opened it and asked to see a warrant, there were at least half-a-dozen Davidians standing alongside and behind Koresh all of whom were armed with rifles, including M-1 Garands.  If the Davidians had opened fire first, and if you understand the capability of the 30.06 M-1 Garand, you need no assurance from me that more than one or two of those raiders would have been laid out in spite of their body armor.  As it was, none of them were shot until they began to break in.   As it was, the only person shot in the front-door transaction was Koresh.  

The Davidians' lawyer, Richard DeGuerin, has repeatedly stated to the Press that he inspected the front door and the holes in in the heavy kalomein door were clearly made by gunshots from outside -- including the one that struck Koresh.  

That front door consisted of two part Kalamein construction.  A Kalamein (fireproof) door is made of 1-1/2" thick solid wood which is covered with molded tin.  It doesn't burn.  Only one half of that door was recovered from the ruins -- the half with no bullet holes.  

DeGuerin also stated he saw many bullet holes in the ceiling of the structure, supporting Koresh's complaint that the raiders, being fully aware there were children inside, directed machine-gun fire at the building from a helicopter.  

It is a standing rule of engagement forbidding federal agents from discharging their weapons unless they have a target in plain view.  Therefore every bullet hole in the walls of the Davidian's building is an example of ATF agents' contempt for rules.

ATF claimed they were "ambushed" by the Davidians.  But the Davidians knew the ATF was coming well in advance of their arrival and the raiders had to cross a 90 yard clearing between the residence and the highway where their trailer was parked.   Many of the davidians were expert marksmen and were armed with high-power deer rifles and M-1 Garands.  *Yet not one shot was fired at the raiders until they began their attempt to break in.* 

Having the high ground, concealment, and weapons advantage, there is no question that the Davidians could have killed most of the raiders before they reached the front door if they chose to.


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## gipper (Jan 30, 2013)

whitehall said:


> Why does the left feel the need to defend every democrat administration? Anybody can see that Waco was a fukup from day one but the left just won't admit it because they have a stake in the power and the guns of the federal government. If they admit that the ATF made criminal mistakes they might not be on board for whatever new assaults on the Constitution are in the works courtesy of the Hussein administration.



To answer your question, it is because they are hypocrites...major league hypocrites.

Remember when W pushed through the tyrannical Patriot Act?  The left went nuts, but when Big Ears renewed it, with even more tyrannical provisions added, they were silent or in complete agreement.  

Unfortunately many libs and Ds just go along with whatever the state run media tells them.  The media dumps on W, they go along.  The media blows kisses to BO, they blow him too.  And when the hypocrisy is pointed out to them, they refuse to accept the truth or attack their accusers.  Sadly many leftists are nothing more than statist drones who will gladly give up their rights to the all knowing all powerful state....we have nothing in common with these people.  They want to be serfs and demand that we should too.


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## Crackerjaxon (Jan 30, 2013)

Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.

If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 30, 2013)

Crackerjaxon said:


> Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.
> 
> If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.


It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.

It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.


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## westwall (Jan 30, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Crackerjaxon said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.
> ...








The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order.  Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.

Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.


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## MikeK (Jan 30, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Crackerjaxon said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.
> ...


For every _authoritarian/dominant_ personality there are a dozen or more _authoritarian/submissives._  Were this not true the Third Reich could not have risen.  

If it were not true there would not be sexual sado/masochistic behavior.  

If it were not true those who chose to act in a manner which led to the death of 21 innocent children at Waco would have been prosecuted for their criminally negligent and sadistic conduct.


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## jillian (Jan 30, 2013)

westwall said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
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it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.

young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?


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## westwall (Jan 30, 2013)

jillian said:


> westwall said:
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No, jillian, it wasn't.  First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found.  Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began.  And you know I don't believe the other either.  Koresh was an ass.  There is no doubt about that.  21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods.  It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.


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## Swagger (Jan 30, 2013)

Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.

But one question.

Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.


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## MikeK (Jan 30, 2013)

jillian said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
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Jillian,

If the Jews in 1930s Germany were not so willing to board the cattle cars that took them to Auschwitz, and if more Jews had acted in the manner of the 35 who rebelled in the Warsaw Ghetto, there would not have been a _Holocaust._ 

Anticipating your rejection of my comparisons I'll remind you that political oppression always comes about incrementally, one graduating step at a time.  And your reasoning is no different from that of the Tories who disapproved of the American Revolution.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 30, 2013)

Swagger said:


> Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.
> 
> But one question.
> 
> Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.



I want to correct something right off the bat; no one is "pro-Koresh."

David Koresh was a megalomaniac and a cult leader. Suspicions of sex with underaged girls were well founded, but not the "child molesting" the Clinton administration later promoted. Like many cult leaders, Koresh took ALL of the women in the cult as his own harem. Koresh, declaring himself a prophet (The branch Davidians were a break off of 7th Day Adventists) had stated that god revealed the age one becomes a women to be 14, thus the girls in the cult were to have sex with him starting on their 14th birthday. (Probably a correct interpretation of Mosiac law, holding that one is a child THROUGH the 13th year.)

Koresh was a scumbag and insane.

None of this changes anything.

First off, the BATF has no jurisdiction over sex statutes. If there was evidence of child abuse, then the County Sheriff and child protective services were the proper authority.

Secondly, there was an embedded FBI agent in the cult, who was not able to identify any illegal acts. Even the sex was ambiguous. There was never any evidence of illegal guns, the BATF fabricated an affidavit in an attempt to get a warrant, which was not issued.

Secondly, no attempt to serve a warrant was ever made, the BATF started with a guns blazing, military assault on the compound. They clearly intended to use a military assault and kill Koresh and several of the men as a means of covering for their lack of warrant. Arrests bring courts and examinations of evidence and procedure.

Be clear, the BATF was there to kill, not to arrest anyone.

So yes, the Davidians reaction was the correct one, to defend themselves from a gang of armed murderers.


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## Swagger (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry, that was the wrong phrase to use. What I meant by "pro-Koresh" was his reaction to the illegal entry of the compound. Not any beliefs he held, positions he bestowed upon himself, etc.


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## MikeK (Jan 30, 2013)

Swagger said:


> Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.
> 
> But one question.
> 
> Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.


One of the saddest elements of the Waco story is the generally unknown fact that Koresh believed rather strongly during the initial stages of the seige that the media would eventually gain access to them and when the American public learned the truth about what was happening the result would be such pressure on Washington the President would be forced to intervene and there would be a truthful hearing of the facts.  What he didn't count on is federal suppression of the media, which was a brazen violation of Amendment One (Freedom of the Press).  

Reporters were _sequestered_ in an area about a mile from the scene of the seige, supposedly "for their own protection."   The only access to information they had was afforded them by an FBI liaison -- and that information is what you and the rest of the world "watched unfold on the news."  One reporter attempted to defy the constraint and make his way to the residence but he was arrested by the FBI.  

There is so much more to the Waco story than the general public has the slightest awareness of, such as Koresh's ongoing conflict with the BATF, which had gone on for more than a year before the raid.  If you wish to learn more about the Waco Massacre I recommend you Google the following:  "Carol Moore - Waco"  There you will have access to all the facts.


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## jillian (Jan 30, 2013)

westwall said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts


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## Swagger (Jan 30, 2013)

Except he wasn't the "perp" in this case. He was the victim.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jan 30, 2013)

jillian said:


> It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts



In this case, the courts determined that the BATF lacked any credible basis for a warrant. 

When Davy Aguilera of the BATF applied for a search warrant, they were refused. Here is why;

{While [agents] Skinner and Aguilera pored through McMahon's records, the dealer excused himself and telephoned Koresh. "I told him there were ATF agents at my house asking a lot of questions about him," McMahon said. "He said, 'If there's a problem, tell them to come out here. If they want to see my guns, they're more than welcome.'"

"So I walked back in the room, holding the cordless phone and said, 'I've got [Koresh] on the phone. If you'd like to go out there and see those guns, you're more than welcome to.' They looked at each other and Aguilera got real paranoid, shaking his head and whispering, "No, no!'" so I went back to the phone and told David they wouldn't be coming out.'" (Pate, 1993e:37)

On its face, such an invitation suggests (1) no warrant was needed, nor was an assault with 76 BATF agents; (2) Koresh either was in compliance with federal gun laws, believed he was in compliance, or believed he could hide any violations from invited guests. It has been suggested that accepting such invitations violates normal investigative techniques. There are, however, a few arguments against that explanation.}

The Tragedy at Waco

The BATF was only able to obtain an inspection warrant for "improper storage" of explosives based on an affidavit (U.S. Dept. of Treasury, 1993:26, 186) from a United Parcel Service (UPS) driver reported to the McLennan County sheriff's office of several deliveries of firearms components and explosives which the driver found suspicious.

This is not the arrest and search warrant the BATF later perjured itself by claiming they had, and would not confer a "no knock" authority to the BATF, which is a regulatory agency in the first place.


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## hazlnut (Jan 30, 2013)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > I fought the law, and the law won
> ...



All the made up conspiracy theory bullshit doesn't mean squat.

Both Ruby Ridge and Waco have been investigated and in both instances there was misconduct by the ATF.  That does not mitigate or excuse the Weavers criminal behavior.  If federal law enforcement come with an arrest warrant and you resist or open fire on them, then you are responsible for what follows.

**Weaver had been indicted by a grand jury.

**Weaver missed a court date and a bench warrant was issued.

**Weaver refused to surrender to the U.S. Marshals.  This dragged out for months while the U.S. Attorneys tried to arrange a peaceful surrender.  -- Jesus, they were bending over backward to give this loon and easy way out.

**While scouting the Weaver property for a way to arrest Weaver without incident, the Weaver boys and their dog confronted U.S. Marshals.  One dog was shot and the Weaver son fired on a U.S. Marshal.  Let me repeat, a boy with a gun fired on a U.S. Marshal.  Fuck you kid.

All the improper procedure and mishandling of the case up to that point by the ATF DO NOT give the Weavers the right to fire on a U.S. Marshal with an arrest warrant.

I won't excuse some of the early missteps by the ATF, but these backwoods paranoid fucks, the Weavers, cost the government and taxpayers thousands of man hours with all their stupid loony-toons home school bullshit.

What happened that day was a tragedy that could have been avoided.  But you fuck with federal law enforcement and you play stupid paranoid games and refuse to cooperate or acknowledge their authority, YOU WILL GO DOWN.

Ultimately it was Randy Weaver and his paranoia that killed his wife and children.

I know Timothy McVeigh has a whole different theory about the tragedy and he ran around the country with his copy of the Turner Diaries spreading the gospel of paranoia and idiocy.  

Waco was a cult stockpiling weapons, while their leader had sex with underage girls.  How it went down, the final siege, was another tragedy.  But they too fired on federal officers.  There is NO VALID REASON TO FIRE ON FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.


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## westwall (Jan 30, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Swagger said:
> 
> 
> > Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.
> ...








I don't believe the initial intent was an all out assault.  I believe they wanted to go in with overwhelming force and scare the inhabitants intosubmission.  They weren't expecting to meet a fully prepared, motivated group of individuals.  

The resulting fight was more a result of gross incompetance than malice aforethought.


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## westwall (Jan 30, 2013)

jillian said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...







I agree.  However, if there is no warrant, there is no order.


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## Synthaholic (Jan 30, 2013)

MikeK said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


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## westwall (Jan 30, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...







Yeah, it's funny.  Whenever you nazi's are losing you trot out good old Godwin in a vain effort to deflect the very real defeat you are suffering.  Nice to see you stay true to form


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## Againsheila (Jan 30, 2013)

jillian said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



So if they show up at your door claiming to have a warrant but refusing to show it to you, you're just gonna let them in?  Especially after they have already started shooting?


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## gipper (Jan 31, 2013)

hazlnut said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You have completely misrepresented the facts of the Weaver case.  You have accepted the government BS and ignored the truth, which is readily available if you care to look for it.

Weaver was minding his own business.  Yes he had some involvement with a white supremacist group and hated the government.  In your mind, that justifies the government murdering his wife and son over nothing.....He moved his family to a remote area to get away from society. He was entrapped by the ATF into sawing off a gun barrel...making it illegally too short at the undercover ATF agent's request....a quarter inch TOO SHORT, which lead to the murder of Weaver's wife and son by an out of control government agency....but you apparently are blind to this tyranny.

The government lied to Weaver about the court date. So, he never showed up in court so they went after him...more government entrapment.  Cameras, helicopters, constant surveillance, snipers, etc....over a gun 1/4" too short.

Can you justify government agents shooting his son and wife dead, without ever identifying themselves?  No doubt you can just as the government did.    

The Weaver incident is an even WORSE example of government tyranny than Waco...and Waco is about as bad as it gets.  

Failing to recognize tyranny, when it is right in front of you, is a tyrannical governments trump card.


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## whitehall (Jan 31, 2013)

McVeigh was a domestic terrorist who was tried, convicted and executed in about seven years. The Feds chose not to investigate the political affiliation of the radical network McVeigh belonged to nor did they search for John Doe #1 or #2. They were content to arrest McVeigh associates who were not connected to the actual bombing. McVeigh was captured in record time after the bombing. The Feds aren't that good ...unless they know the identity of the perp. Indications are that the Feds set up a sting operation that got insanely out of hand. OKC judges were ordered not to come to work the day of the bombing before the bombing and according to witnesses there wasn't a single agent in the ATF office when the bomb went off. McVeigh was kept in virtual isolation the entire time and nobody in the media seemed interested in investigating what the hell really happened.


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## gipper (Feb 1, 2013)

whitehall said:


> McVeigh was a domestic terrorist who was tried, convicted and executed in about seven years. The Feds chose not to investigate the political affiliation of the radical network McVeigh belonged to nor did they search for John Doe #1 or #2. They were content to arrest McVeigh associates who were not connected to the actual bombing. McVeigh was captured in record time after the bombing. The Feds aren't that good ...unless they know the identity of the perp. Indications are that the Feds set up a sting operation that got insanely out of hand. OKC judges were ordered not to come to work the day of the bombing before the bombing and according to witnesses there wasn't a single agent in the ATF office when the bomb went off. McVeigh was kept in virtual isolation the entire time and nobody in the media seemed interested in investigating what the hell really happened.



Yes and all that would seem to indicate a government conspiracy and cover up.  And yet, millions of Americans continue to believe whatever the government and the state run media tell them.  

CRAZY!!!


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## Uncensored2008 (Feb 1, 2013)

gipper said:


> Yes and all that would seem to indicate a government conspiracy and cover up.  And yet, millions of Americans continue to believe whatever the government and the state run media tell them.
> 
> CRAZY!!!



I've done a huge amount of research on McVeigh. Much of what Whitehall posted is simply inaccurate.

First off, McVeigh's primary accomplice, Terry Nichols, was apprehended, arrested and convicted. Nichols is serving a life sentence for his role. It was the FACT that Nichols was caught that led to the investigation of the connection between McVeigh, Elohim City and Al Qaeda. Nichols went to an Al Qaeda training camp in the Philippines, where he learned the art of terrorist bombing, that he used in planning the OKC attack.

There was extensive investigation into the McVeigh conspiracy, which came out of a terrorist group known as "Elohim City," a neo-Nazi group with ties to Hamas. Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda. Hatred of Jews was the main tenet. 

The myth that there were no ATF agents killed is similar to the one claiming that no Jews were in the Twin Towers on 9/11 - it's a complete falsehood. Of the 168 dead, 19 worked for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. It was a Federal building, 99 of the victims were Federal employees.


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## gipper (Feb 1, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Yes and all that would seem to indicate a government conspiracy and cover up.  And yet, millions of Americans continue to believe whatever the government and the state run media tell them.
> ...



I agree with you.  My point was the government has never come clean on the bombing.  I suspect they are hiding information.  

Do you think the government has released all the information on McVeigh and the bombing?


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## Missourian (Feb 2, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts
> ...





 Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest

Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary. Plummer v. State,136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S.,177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.

Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest  (many more  Precedent at the link)

Paulie and I discovered this during a discussion a few years ago... http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...e-for-taking-their-picture-2.html#post2650335


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