# Greece tells banking cartel   STICK IT



## IsaacNewton

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


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## jwoodie

Blazing Saddles redux?


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## CrusaderFrank

Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!


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## whitehall

The "knife that Greece had to it's throat" was of it's own making. The alleged "fascist" banking cartel would offer liberal debit conditions to a bankrupt country. What other offers does the country consider? Russia would probably give them a good deal.


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## hipeter924

They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.

But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.

The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.

If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.

The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.


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## Rexx Taylor

CrusaderFrank said:


> Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!


i wonder why Obama hasnt spoken about this? this is a mirror image of his second term, only difference is that we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!


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## Two Thumbs

so they are flipping the bird to the people that saved them from utter ruin, and renigging on their deal

and they will keep wasting the money that was loaned them, they will keep being children, until what?

greece is out of other peoples money, they have no fiscal conservatives to work them out of the whole, they actually think the government will help



leftist are so dumb


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## Synthaholic

Rexx Taylor said:


> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!


Thanks Dubya!


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## Two Thumbs

Synthaholic said:


> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
Click to expand...



derp adds derp to the derp


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## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.



LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL

Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.






Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.

3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.


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## Synthaholic

Two Thumbs said:


> so they are flipping the bird to the people that saved them from utter ruin, and *renigging* on their deal


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## Andylusion

Synthaholic said:


> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
Click to expand...


Yeah, thanks Dubya who hasn't been in office in 7 years, and the debt has doubled since he left.   Thanks indeed.   If only we had Dubya, our debt would be half of what it is now.


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## Synthaholic

Two Thumbs said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> derp adds derp to the derp
Click to expand...

If derp=fact, then yes.


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## hipeter924

CrusaderFrank said:


> Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!


Syriza and Independent Greeks (ANEL) aren't the ones that built the debt, in fact if anything the have the greatest chance to bring down the debt and stabilize the economy.

Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) and New Democracy are the two parties which built up the debt, hid figures, and were quite corrupt when they ruled Greece on and off from the 1970s to 2014.

Ultimately though PASOK is the party that forced the bailout and messed up the Greek economy, so with them out of the picture Greece has a chance to recover.

So Greece rather than 'funding fakes and phonies' has done the reverse of that by booting out the establishment, even if on the surface Syriza is far-left.


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## Synthaholic

Andylusion said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, thanks Dubya who hasn't been in office in 7 years, and the debt has doubled since he left.   Thanks indeed.   If only we had Dubya, our debt would be half of what it is now.
Click to expand...

Oh, look!  Another moron has arrived.

It's been proven again and again how bush put trillions on the national credit card, and between that and the interest, it's grown to 17 trillion.

What has the Republican House done to raise revenue to pay down the debt?  We can't do it by cutting mere millions from homeless children, so sorry.


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## Rexx Taylor

i am surprised Donald Trump hasnt offered to buy Greece before it goes on ebay.


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## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
Click to expand...


Obama the most powerless greatest President Evah!!!


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## Andylusion

Synthaholic said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, thanks Dubya who hasn't been in office in 7 years, and the debt has doubled since he left.   Thanks indeed.   If only we had Dubya, our debt would be half of what it is now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, look!  Another moron has arrived.
> 
> It's been proven again and again how bush put trillions on the national credit card, and between that and the interest, it's grown to 17 trillion.
> 
> What has the Republican House done to raise revenue to pay down the debt?  We can't do it by cutting mere millions from homeless children, so sorry.
Click to expand...


I've noticed that you never have anything of value to add to the conversation, and that most of the people I know who are worth talking to..... don't talk to you.  I've seen this pattern now on over 5 different threads.

It would appear they figured out you are absolutely worthless as a source of intelligent conversation, before I did.   Sadly, I am slow to catch on.   But I will fix that here and now.

Goodbye dear little troll.  You are banned from talking to me, for the rest of your sad little life.   The ignore function on the new forum software is through and absolute.  I will never see your boring, mindless, and devoid of original thought posts, ever again.  So long, and farewell!     If you find you only have other trolls to bicker with, maybe you'll think back on this moment... and perhaps learn something. Unfortunately... or fortunately..... I'll never know either way!   Bye bye!


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## IsaacNewton

whitehall said:


> The "knife that Greece had to it's throat" was of it's own making. The alleged "fascist" banking cartel would offer liberal debit conditions to a bankrupt country. What other offers does the country consider? Russia would probably give them a good deal.



All debt everywhere is 'of its own making'.

And part of the point is, if Europe can turn their back on the cradle of democracy and have them even THINK of going to Russia for help, there is something very wrong with this picture.

Greece in fact should be demanding the derivatives criminals on Wall Street who, with Bush and the Republicans, created the 2008 crash that caused this worldwide misery to pay the bill. But of course the IMF wouldn't think of asking 'some of their own' to be held accountable for their actions.

It was in fact a knife being held to the throat of the Greek people. And they said 'fuck off'. Good for them.

European democracies have lost their way, and it is the financial institutes that are responsible.


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## hipeter924

Rexx Taylor said:


> i am surprised Donald Trump hasnt offered to buy Greece before it goes on ebay.


You have to wait for it to default and go bankrupt first, doubt anyone would touch it with a stick right now - let alone Trump.


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## Rexx Taylor

Rexx Taylor said:


> i am surprised Donald Trump hasnt offered to buy Greece before it goes on ebay.


i heard that the opening bid is $1.42.   anyone? do i hear $1.45?


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## Andylusion

Rexx Taylor said:


> i am surprised Donald Trump hasnt offered to buy Greece before it goes on ebay.



I'm not.  Bad investment.

It's just like Titan Tire and the bankrupt tire plant in France.   The CEO went over, and talked to the employees, and said they make a good product, but they spend most of the day walking around talking, instead of working.    One of the employees stood up, and told the CEO "It's the French way!".

Shockingly Titan Tires decided to not buy the bankrupt plant, and all the employees were laid off.

Why would anyone buy an entire country of people, that demand to destroy themselves?   Trump would never do anything that stupid.


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## hipeter924

Rexx Taylor said:


> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am surprised Donald Trump hasnt offered to buy Greece before it goes on ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> i heard that the opening bid is $1.42.   anyone? do i hear $1.45?
Click to expand...

Right now it is in the negative, because if you buy it now (before it has defaulted and declared bankruptcy) you get stuck with the toxic debt.


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## IsaacNewton

hipeter924 said:


> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.



Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?

This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?


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## Rexx Taylor

Greece: USA when we owe 22 Trillion under President Hillary who will say,,,22 Trillion? what difference does it make?


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## Two Thumbs

Synthaholic said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> derp adds derp to the derp
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If derp=fact, then yes.
Click to expand...

uh, no it doesn't, but it's still derp


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## IsaacNewton

Conservatives cry 'socialism' about every single thing under the sun. It used to be 'communism', but that got stale. Next year who knows what it will be.

What we know for sure is Bush and the Republicans destroyed the world economy in 2008 and we've had to climb every so slowly out of that gigantic pit. Yet these same loser now want to tell others how to handle finances.

Mental, illness.


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## Wake

IsaacNewton said:


> No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.



Why should they, if Greek's leaders fucked up their own economy?


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## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
Click to expand...


Again.... did you miss who owns the debt?   It's not the banks.  Most of it is the tax payers.

You keep acting like "world class corrupt banking thievery"....   What is wrong with you people?    You just make up your "facts" as you go?

Most of the money that Greece owes, is owed to GOVERNMENT.... which is.....  TAX PAYERS.   ***THE PUBLIC***

Look at the graph!....     The biggest supplier of Greek debt was the Eurozone!    That's funded by tax payers!


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## occupied

The IMF has a long history of forcing economic policy that makes a country vulnerable to multinational corporations and banks and places much of the burden on a country's poorest and most vulnerable citizens. I am glad someone finally told them to keep their money and their strings.


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## Two Thumbs

IsaacNewton said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
Click to expand...

so you're saying that greece, the country, was unable to understand the terms of the contract and therefore should not be held responsible for not asking questions to understand what was going on.


is that it?  greece is a bunch of ignorant children that saw the goodies and didn't care how it got paid for?

yea, that does sound familiar


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## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> Conservatives cry 'socialism' about every single thing under the sun. It used to be 'communism', but that got stale. Next year who knows what it will be.
> 
> What we know for sure is Bush and the Republicans destroyed the world economy in 2008 and we've had to climb every so slowly out of that gigantic pit. Yet these same loser now want to tell others how to handle finances.
> 
> Mental, illness.



Because it is.

Look you can't look at government giving a country a loan... and then claim socialism isn't the cause.   It's socialism.

The private market wouldn't give money to Greece, specifically because they knew it was a bad deal.

You people just make up whatever facts you want, to support the claims you have already determined to be true, exempt from factual evidence.


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## hipeter924

IsaacNewton said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
Click to expand...

I have to try and think on the positive. At least as a result of this mess Greece has got rid of most of the leaches in the establishment, and with the constant shadow of debt and economic strife they are going to be held constantly to account by the Greek public - unlike the governments previous to 2009 who were able to promise stuff the country couldn't afford (and cheat the books) to keep in power.


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## Kondor3

The Greeks basically have spent themselves into the ground, yes?


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## IsaacNewton

Wake said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they, if Greek's leaders fucked up their own economy?
Click to expand...


Because they either get it figured out, or eat the debt.

The most powerful position isn't when you have billions, its when you have nothing. What can anyone do to you.

As I said, Greece was going to have tough times ahead no matter what. At least now they have a say in how the ladder that they can climb out of this hole is built.


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## Andylusion

occupied said:


> The IMF has a long history of forcing economic policy that makes a country vulnerable to multinational corporations and banks and places much of the burden on a country's poorest and most vulnerable citizens. I am glad someone finally told them to keep their money and their strings.



Now I would agree with that.

But you are wrong.   They didn't tell them to keep their money.   They still got loans from the IMF, and ECB.   And they still have strings.   The IMF will get every penny back from Greece.  They will not take a loss.

Now again, I agree with you.    The borrower is slave to the lender.   That's how borrowing works.

The solution is to not spend money you don't have.   Greece doesn't want to do that.  They want to raise the pensions.   But they need money....... but no one will lend to them, because they are not doing what is required to get borrowed money.

Greece hasn't stuck it to the IMF.   The IMF is going to get their money back.   Greece screwed themselves.


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## hipeter924

Kondor3 said:


> The Greeks basically have spent themselves into the ground, yes?


Yep, though not all at once.

Took two major political parties and from the 1970s to 2009.


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## Rexx Taylor

Europe has had over 2000 years to get it right! WTF happened !!!!


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## IsaacNewton

occupied said:


> The IMF has a long history of forcing economic policy that makes a country vulnerable to multinational corporations and banks and places much of the burden on a country's poorest and most vulnerable citizens. I am glad someone finally told them to keep their money and their strings.



And that is it in a nutshell. This bullshit, internationally, has to be called for what it is and the few wealthy who like to manipulate things need to get kicked in the balls.

Leave it to the cradle of democracy to do it.


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## Rexx Taylor

This Just In From CNN: George Soros has just offered to buy the nation of greece for approximately 3 Billion Dollars and 42 cents. But we are also getting word that Michelle Obama has countered the offer with a bid of 3 Billion dollars and 55 cents.


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## hipeter924

Rexx Taylor said:


> Europe has had over 2000 years to get it right! WTF happened !!!!


Ottoman Empire, WW2, corrupt military dictatorships, then corrupt democratic governments. 

Basically they got the short end of the stick, and never really recovered.


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## Andylusion

hipeter924 said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have to try and think on the positive. At least as a result of this mess Greece has got rid of most of the leaches in the establishment, and with the constant shadow of debt and economic strife they are going to be held constantly to account by the Greek public - unlike the governments previous to 2009 who were able to promise stuff the country couldn't afford (and cheat the books) to keep in power.
Click to expand...


Russia doesn't have the money to fund Greece.    If they go to Russia, Russia too will impose their own strings on the money, and yet the amount of money they could borrow would be a tiny fraction of what is needed, thus it wouldn't help.

What strings could Russia impose?   Allowing their major companies to come and "prey and try to suck the life out of it".

And as far as getting rid of the leaches, that's not what I've read.    If anything, this was to restore public leeches back into the cash flow.


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## Andylusion

Rexx Taylor said:


> Europe has had over 2000 years to get it right! WTF happened !!!!



There is no way to get socialism right.   You can drag it out for decades, but eventually it crashes in on itself.


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## IsaacNewton

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives cry 'socialism' about every single thing under the sun. It used to be 'communism', but that got stale. Next year who knows what it will be.
> 
> What we know for sure is Bush and the Republicans destroyed the world economy in 2008 and we've had to climb every so slowly out of that gigantic pit. Yet these same loser now want to tell others how to handle finances.
> 
> Mental, illness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is.
> 
> Look you can't look at government giving a country a loan... and then claim socialism isn't the cause.   It's socialism.
> 
> The private market wouldn't give money to Greece, specifically because they knew it was a bad deal.
> 
> You people just make up whatever facts you want, to support the claims you have already determined to be true, exempt from factual evidence.
Click to expand...


Ok, for you conservatives that live in your forever closed bubble world.

Reagan tripled the national debt. Bush ran it up from 5 trillion dollars to 11 trillion dollars, left a 1.4 trillion dollar yearly deficit, and destroyed the world economy in the process.

Yet YOU idiots want to blame everything on 'socialism'?

Then Reagan and Bush were the all time economy killing money stealing socialists in the history of mankind. And these are the losers YOU people voted into office.

Your arguments only mean something in your own bubble of conservative delusion-world.


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## RetiredGySgt

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


Retard alert, You borrow money you pay it back. Anything less is theft. Greece needs to stop paying people not to work and paying it's legal debt.


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## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, thanks Dubya who hasn't been in office in 7 years, and the debt has doubled since he left.   Thanks indeed.   If only we had Dubya, our debt would be half of what it is now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, look!  Another moron has arrived.
> 
> It's been proven again and again how bush put trillions on the national credit card, and between that and the interest, it's grown to 17 trillion.
> 
> What has the Republican House done to raise revenue to pay down the debt?  We can't do it by cutting mere millions from homeless children, so sorry.
Click to expand...

You are the biggest stinking fool on this board.
Debt was 10T when Bush left office.
Debt is 18T today.
Debt will be 20T when Barry leaves.
What has Barry done to undo all this "damage" you say Bush caused?  Nothing.  The opposite.  He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.


----------



## hipeter924

Andylusion said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have to try and think on the positive. At least as a result of this mess Greece has got rid of most of the leaches in the establishment, and with the constant shadow of debt and economic strife they are going to be held constantly to account by the Greek public - unlike the governments previous to 2009 who were able to promise stuff the country couldn't afford (and cheat the books) to keep in power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Russia doesn't have the money to fund Greece.    If they go to Russia, Russia too will impose their own strings on the money, and yet the amount of money they could borrow would be a tiny fraction of what is needed, thus it wouldn't help.
> 
> What strings could Russia impose?   Allowing their major companies to come and "prey and try to suck the life out of it".
> 
> And as far as getting rid of the leaches, that's not what I've read.    If anything, this was to restore public leeches back into the cash flow.
Click to expand...

Never said they would hand over the money, if anything they might get a few subsidies and possibly a trade deal - but not a massive cash injection. 

Ultimately though if Greece left Nato it could cut its military budget a lot, and even be paid by Russia to lease areas for a military base. 

But that is in the worst case scenario, where Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Andylusion said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have to try and think on the positive. At least as a result of this mess Greece has got rid of most of the leaches in the establishment, and with the constant shadow of debt and economic strife they are going to be held constantly to account by the Greek public - unlike the governments previous to 2009 who were able to promise stuff the country couldn't afford (and cheat the books) to keep in power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Russia doesn't have the money to fund Greece.    If they go to Russia, Russia too will impose their own strings on the money, and yet the amount of money they could borrow would be a tiny fraction of what is needed, thus it wouldn't help.
> 
> What strings could Russia impose?   Allowing their major companies to come and "prey and try to suck the life out of it".
> 
> And as far as getting rid of the leaches, that's not what I've read.    If anything, this was to restore public leeches back into the cash flow.
Click to expand...


Oh absolutely Russia would ask for a deal that favored their companies, that is the point. Greece would align in many ways to Russia. And don't kid yourself, the Russians have money to spend. We aren't talking about trillions of dollars.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> Conservatives cry 'socialism' about every single thing under the sun. It used to be 'communism', but that got stale. Next year who knows what it will be.
> 
> What we know for sure is Bush and the Republicans destroyed the world economy in 2008 and we've had to climb every so slowly out of that gigantic pit. Yet these same loser now want to tell others how to handle finances.
> 
> Mental, illness.


So Obama's first term was a waste and he failed tof ix the financial crisis?  Yup.
Back to Greece: those people expected someone-anyone-to bail them out so they could continue retiring at 60 and collecting full pensions for not working.
The rest of Europe just got sick and tired of their shit.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have to try and think on the positive. At least as a result of this mess Greece has got rid of most of the leaches in the establishment, and with the constant shadow of debt and economic strife they are going to be held constantly to account by the Greek public - unlike the governments previous to 2009 who were able to promise stuff the country couldn't afford (and cheat the books) to keep in power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Russia doesn't have the money to fund Greece.    If they go to Russia, Russia too will impose their own strings on the money, and yet the amount of money they could borrow would be a tiny fraction of what is needed, thus it wouldn't help.
> 
> What strings could Russia impose?   Allowing their major companies to come and "prey and try to suck the life out of it".
> 
> And as far as getting rid of the leaches, that's not what I've read.    If anything, this was to restore public leeches back into the cash flow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh absolutely Russia would ask for a deal that favored their companies, that is the point. Greece would align in many ways to Russia. And don't kid yourself, the Russians have money to spend. We aren't talking about trillions of dollars.
Click to expand...

The Russians do not have money to spend.  The fall in oil prices has hurt them signficantly.
Youi are an ignoramus.


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> Wake said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they, if Greek's leaders fucked up their own economy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they either get it figured out, or eat the debt.
> 
> The most powerful position isn't when you have billions, its when you have nothing. What can anyone do to you.
> 
> As I said, Greece was going to have tough times ahead no matter what. At least now they have a say in how the ladder that they can climb out of this hole is built.
Click to expand...


The whole thing to this point, was them trying to figure it out.  Greece just refused.

Look, if your brother-in-law opens a business, and you lend him $10,000... and he comes back two months later asking for another $10,000.... do you just give him the cash?   "Oh, hopefully he'll figure it out......"  No, you ask to see the books, and what his sales were, and what his revenue is, and profit margin.

If you notice he's spending thousands of dollars on A/C for his building, which eats up the profits... what are you going to do?

You say, brother... you need to turn off the AC, until you build the business enough to afford it.

Because if he doesn't....  he'll just need more money and more money until you end up broke.

So if he wants to get more money from you..... he has to make changes to the economy of the business, so it's profitable.

If he doesn't.... then he doesn't get anymore money.

Greece was going broke.   They asked for more money.    The EU said 'sure if you make these changes to your economy, so you can pay us back.... otherwise you are not getting another loan'.

The people of Greece just said no.... so the EU is going to say... NO.

That's how that works.


----------



## jwoodie

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.


----------



## Rexx Taylor

doesn't France think they are so much better and smarter than us? oops, arent they about to crash and burn sometime soon?


----------



## The Rabbi

jwoodie said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.


Maybe he'll swap the contents of Ft Knox for some Americans captured fighting for ISIS.


----------



## Vigilante

*Greeks can’t use iTunes, the App Store, PayPal and more thanks to the financial crisis*

The Next Web ^
Greece has a lot of problems right now as a result of the debt crisis, but one that you might not have immediately anticipated is that online services that require credit or debit payments to a foreign company are broken. As BuzzFeed reports, the Greek government’s imposition of capital controls – which restrict citizens’ ability to take money out of the country – following its failure to make debt repayment, also mean they can’t buy a €0.99 song from iTunes or grab new apps. Of course, it’s not the biggest issue faced by the country, but it is another source...


----------



## Sun Devil 92

jwoodie said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.



That would mean Greece is....dare I say it......too big to fail ?


----------



## Rexx Taylor

am i the only one who saw this coming when we were partying in the 90's? even then i knew things were going to get much worse sometime after 2000.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wake said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they, if Greek's leaders fucked up their own economy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they either get it figured out, or eat the debt.
> 
> The most powerful position isn't when you have billions, its when you have nothing. What can anyone do to you.
> 
> As I said, Greece was going to have tough times ahead no matter what. At least now they have a say in how the ladder that they can climb out of this hole is built.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The whole thing to this point, was them trying to figure it out.  Greece just refused.
> 
> Look, if your brother-in-law opens a business, and you lend him $10,000... and he comes back two months later asking for another $10,000.... do you just give him the cash?   "Oh, hopefully he'll figure it out......"  No, you ask to see the books, and what his sales were, and what his revenue is, and profit margin.
> 
> If you notice he's spending thousands of dollars on A/C for his building, which eats up the profits... what are you going to do?
> 
> You say, brother... you need to turn off the AC, until you build the business enough to afford it.
> 
> Because if he doesn't....  he'll just need more money and more money until you end up broke.
> 
> So if he wants to get more money from you..... he has to make changes to the economy of the business, so it's profitable.
> 
> If he doesn't.... then he doesn't get anymore money.
> 
> Greece was going broke.   They asked for more money.    The EU said 'sure if you make these changes to your economy, so you can pay us back.... otherwise you are not getting another loan'.
> 
> The people of Greece just said no.... so the EU is going to say... NO.
> 
> That's how that works.
Click to expand...


Red Herring argument.

You can't compare the economy of a country to the utter simplicity of loaning your brother money. It sounds 'folksy' and like it is the same, but it isn't. Not by a million miles.

If the Greek people just want to lounge around and get paid, why did they just reject this offer of more financial help then? Surely by your estimation they know they are headed into much tougher times.

No one likes to be told what to do with a knife to their throat. And on a national scale such things even lead to wars.


----------



## hipeter924

jwoodie said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.


Well, there is still the issue of US military bases in Greece: The Strategic Consequences of Grexit 


> There are also rumors that Athens might allow Russia the use of Greek military bases. Russia is expanding militarily in the Black Sea and the eastern part of the Mediterranean. Greece could also serve as a base for the Russians to strengthen their position in the Balkans. If Greece were to turn its back on NATO, it could become a geographical link between Russia and its Balkan vassal, Serbia -- a process that would link the three Christian-Orthodox nations of Russia, Serbia and Greece.


It would be a public embarrassment to the Obama administration if US military bases in Greece are forced to close, as a result of not supporting Greece financially, and Russian military bases are set up there instead.


----------



## Preacher

Good! I was hoping this is what would happen. Golden Dawn was hoping for a NO as was UKIP among others. Hopefully this destroys the EU. A real big FUCK YOU to the Rothschilds.


----------



## SAYIT

hipeter924 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!
> 
> 
> 
> Syriza and Independent Greeks (ANEL) aren't the ones that built the debt, in fact if anything the have the greatest chance to bring down the debt and stabilize the economy.
> 
> Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) and New Democracy are the two parties which built up the debt, hid figures, and were quite corrupt when they ruled Greece on and off from the 1970s to 2014.
> 
> Ultimately though PASOK is the party that forced the bailout and messed up the Greek economy, so with them out of the picture Greece has a chance to recover.
> 
> So Greece rather than 'funding fakes and phonies' has done the reverse of that by booting out the establishment, even if on the surface Syriza is far-left.
Click to expand...


Greece's current gov't spending outstrips its revenues. There is little reason to believe revenues will be going up any time soon and new foreign loans are about to dry up. Without real cuts in spending - something Syriza adamantly rejects - the future of Greece is one of severe austerity. The new Drachmas will literally be worth less than the paper on which they'll be printed. BTW, default does not wipe out the debt. Nice work, guys.


----------



## SAYIT

hipeter924 said:


> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is still the issue of US military bases in Greece: The Strategic Consequences of Grexit
> 
> 
> 
> There are also rumors that Athens might allow Russia the use of Greek military bases. Russia is expanding militarily in the Black Sea and the eastern part of the Mediterranean. Greece could also serve as a base for the Russians to strengthen their position in the Balkans. If Greece were to turn its back on NATO, it could become a geographical link between Russia and its Balkan vassal, Serbia -- a process that would link the three Christian-Orthodox nations of Russia, Serbia and Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It would be a public embarrassment to the Obama administration if US military bases in Greece are forced to close, as a result of not supporting Greece financially, and Russian military bases are set up there instead.
Click to expand...


In fact, there is a NATO issue but the chance that Russia will buy in is pretty slim.


----------



## blackhawk

Greece through it's own stupidity wrecks it's economy has been bailed out twice not paid back any of the money that I'm aware of and now want another bailout with better terms only a government mind could come up with that. If any of us had taken two huge loans out defaulted on both then ask the bank for a thrid loan with better terms for us I think we know what the response would and should be.


----------



## hipeter924

SAYIT said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!
> 
> 
> 
> Syriza and Independent Greeks (ANEL) aren't the ones that built the debt, in fact if anything the have the greatest chance to bring down the debt and stabilize the economy.
> 
> Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) and New Democracy are the two parties which built up the debt, hid figures, and were quite corrupt when they ruled Greece on and off from the 1970s to 2014.
> 
> Ultimately though PASOK is the party that forced the bailout and messed up the Greek economy, so with them out of the picture Greece has a chance to recover.
> 
> So Greece rather than 'funding fakes and phonies' has done the reverse of that by booting out the establishment, even if on the surface Syriza is far-left.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece's current gov't spending outstrips its revenues. There is little reason to believe revenues will be going up any time soon and new foreign loans are about to dry up. *Without real cuts in spending - something Syriza adamantly rejects* - the future of Greece is one of severe austerity. The new Drachmas will literally be worth less than the paper on which they'll be printed. BTW, default does not wipe out the debt. Nice work, guys.
Click to expand...

 Not true, it agreed to nearly all the terms - but couldn't cut pensions without the equivalent of the collapse of the government and massive civil unrest. Governments have to cut what is politically achievable to cut.

Do you think Americans would politically accept a 90% cut in the US military budget, as well as closing down programs like Medicare and Medicaid just to cut back the US national debt? 

I doubt such cuts could be passed, even if doing those things would cut down the national debt.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wake said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they, if Greek's leaders fucked up their own economy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they either get it figured out, or eat the debt.
> 
> The most powerful position isn't when you have billions, its when you have nothing. What can anyone do to you.
> 
> As I said, Greece was going to have tough times ahead no matter what. At least now they have a say in how the ladder that they can climb out of this hole is built.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The whole thing to this point, was them trying to figure it out.  Greece just refused.
> 
> Look, if your brother-in-law opens a business, and you lend him $10,000... and he comes back two months later asking for another $10,000.... do you just give him the cash?   "Oh, hopefully he'll figure it out......"  No, you ask to see the books, and what his sales were, and what his revenue is, and profit margin.
> 
> If you notice he's spending thousands of dollars on A/C for his building, which eats up the profits... what are you going to do?
> 
> You say, brother... you need to turn off the AC, until you build the business enough to afford it.
> 
> Because if he doesn't....  he'll just need more money and more money until you end up broke.
> 
> So if he wants to get more money from you..... he has to make changes to the economy of the business, so it's profitable.
> 
> If he doesn't.... then he doesn't get anymore money.
> 
> Greece was going broke.   They asked for more money.    The EU said 'sure if you make these changes to your economy, so you can pay us back.... otherwise you are not getting another loan'.
> 
> The people of Greece just said no.... so the EU is going to say... NO.
> 
> That's how that works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Red Herring argument.
> 
> You can't compare the economy of a country to the utter simplicity of loaning your brother money. It sounds 'folksy' and like it is the same, but it isn't. Not by a million miles.
> 
> If the Greek people just want to lounge around and get paid, why did they just reject this offer of more financial help then? Surely by your estimation they know they are headed into much tougher times.
> 
> No one likes to be told what to do with a knife to their throat. And on a national scale such things even lead to wars.
Click to expand...

They were told by their leaders they could hold out for better terms.  That Europe would not let them leave because it would be disaster for the European Union.
Like fools they beleived them.


----------



## IsaacNewton

SAYIT said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is still the issue of US military bases in Greece: The Strategic Consequences of Grexit
> 
> 
> 
> There are also rumors that Athens might allow Russia the use of Greek military bases. Russia is expanding militarily in the Black Sea and the eastern part of the Mediterranean. Greece could also serve as a base for the Russians to strengthen their position in the Balkans. If Greece were to turn its back on NATO, it could become a geographical link between Russia and its Balkan vassal, Serbia -- a process that would link the three Christian-Orthodox nations of Russia, Serbia and Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It would be a public embarrassment to the Obama administration if US military bases in Greece are forced to close, as a result of not supporting Greece financially, and Russian military bases are set up there instead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In fact, there is a NATO issue but the chance that Russia will buy in is pretty slim.
Click to expand...


The fact that Europe would even think of leaving a Eurozone, Euro, and Nato member out to dry like this DOES get noticed by Russia, China, Isis, and every other bad player on Earth, AND it gets noticed by other Eurozone and Nato members.

If Greece is ejected, likely the Eurozone and the Euro will have a hard time surviving over the long run. And you can bet Russia will look with eager eyes at bases in Greece.


----------



## SAYIT

hipeter924 said:


> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am surprised Donald Trump hasnt offered to buy Greece before it goes on ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to wait for it to default and go bankrupt first, doubt anyone would touch it with a stick right now - let alone Trump.
Click to expand...


Countries don't do bankruptcy ... they just default. I'd bet most of Greece's debt must be repaid in hard (Euros, Dollars) currency and Drachmas will be of little value within Greece and of no value elsewhere. The current actions did nothing to solve Greece's long-term economic issues and exacerbated their short-term problems.
Not too bright.


----------



## hipeter924

IsaacNewton said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is still the issue of US military bases in Greece: The Strategic Consequences of Grexit
> 
> 
> 
> There are also rumors that Athens might allow Russia the use of Greek military bases. Russia is expanding militarily in the Black Sea and the eastern part of the Mediterranean. Greece could also serve as a base for the Russians to strengthen their position in the Balkans. If Greece were to turn its back on NATO, it could become a geographical link between Russia and its Balkan vassal, Serbia -- a process that would link the three Christian-Orthodox nations of Russia, Serbia and Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It would be a public embarrassment to the Obama administration if US military bases in Greece are forced to close, as a result of not supporting Greece financially, and Russian military bases are set up there instead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In fact, there is a NATO issue but the chance that Russia will buy in is pretty slim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact that Europe would even think of leaving a Eurozone, Euro, and Nato member out to dry like this DOES get noticed by Russia, China, Isis, and every other bad player on Earth, AND it gets noticed by other Eurozone and Nato members.
> 
> If Greece is ejected, likely the Eurozone and the Euro will have a hard time surviving over the long run. And you can bet Russia will look with eager eyes at bases in Greece.
Click to expand...

I think the Eurozone would have to work harder to appease Italy, Spain, and Portugal - rather than risk them leaving; and regardless of what happens the EU will have contend with stronger demands from the UK to reform the Eurozone.


----------



## SAYIT

IsaacNewton said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jwoodie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Obama jumps in with bailout help in order to prevent the appearance of another Russian victory.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is still the issue of US military bases in Greece: The Strategic Consequences of Grexit
> 
> 
> 
> There are also rumors that Athens might allow Russia the use of Greek military bases. Russia is expanding militarily in the Black Sea and the eastern part of the Mediterranean. Greece could also serve as a base for the Russians to strengthen their position in the Balkans. If Greece were to turn its back on NATO, it could become a geographical link between Russia and its Balkan vassal, Serbia -- a process that would link the three Christian-Orthodox nations of Russia, Serbia and Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It would be a public embarrassment to the Obama administration if US military bases in Greece are forced to close, as a result of not supporting Greece financially, and Russian military bases are set up there instead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In fact, there is a NATO issue but the chance that Russia will buy in is pretty slim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact that Europe would even think of leaving a Eurozone, Euro, and Nato member out to dry like this DOES get noticed by Russia, China, Isis, and every other bad player on Earth, AND it gets noticed by other Eurozone and Nato members.
> 
> If Greece is ejected, likely the Eurozone and the Euro will have a hard time surviving over the long run. And you can bet Russia will look with eager eyes at bases in Greece.
Click to expand...


Greece doesn't want to give up her place in NATO and there's no mechanism for ejection from the EZ. They will call the separation voluntary and temporary in order to keep Greeks feeling a part of Europe but in this case, temporary may mean 100 yrs. Defaulting on the IMF loan was a major FUBAR and Russia is in no condition to offer substantial financial help.


----------



## Steinlight

IsaacNewton said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "knife that Greece had to it's throat" was of it's own making. The alleged "fascist" banking cartel would offer liberal debit conditions to a bankrupt country. What other offers does the country consider? Russia would probably give them a good deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All debt everywhere is 'of its own making'.
> 
> And part of the point is, if Europe can turn their back on the cradle of democracy and have them even THINK of going to Russia for help, there is something very wrong with this picture.
> 
> Greece in fact should be demanding the derivatives criminals on Wall Street who, with Bush and the Republicans, created the 2008 crash that caused this worldwide misery to pay the bill. But of course the IMF wouldn't think of asking 'some of their own' to be held accountable for their actions.
> 
> It was in fact a knife being held to the throat of the Greek people. And they said 'fuck off'. Good for them.
> 
> European democracies have lost their way, and it is the financial institutes that are responsible.
Click to expand...

Wall Street and George Bush forced Greece to spend beyond their means? How so?

I agree, at this point there is no way they can pay back this debt they accrued, but they have no one to blame but themselves.


----------



## hipeter924

SAYIT said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am surprised Donald Trump hasnt offered to buy Greece before it goes on ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to wait for it to default and go bankrupt first, doubt anyone would touch it with a stick right now - let alone Trump.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Countries don't do bankruptcy* ... they just default. I'd bet most of Greece's debt must be repaid in hard (Euros, Dollars) currency and Drachmas will be of little value within Greece and of no value elsewhere. The current actions did nothing to solve Greece's long-term economic issues and exacerbated their short-term problems.
> Not too bright.
Click to expand...

Bankruptcy of nations is not the same as with individuals or businesses, as obviously the debt isn't wiped, and either of those situations (like defaults or bankruptcy) cuts nations off from financial markets.

It continues until the country is able to settle with its creditors and pay up at least some of the amount.

Take Argentina's case for example. It has defaulted on its debt many times, and declared bankruptcy, but it failed to settle with all its creditors - so it remains in a financial mess.

Greece by far is in a worse situation though, as it is uncertain how they could even settle with some of their creditors right now.


----------



## Jackson

The big question is,,,,Are Americans taking notice?  If our government keeps growing and we keep paying more and more Americans not to work....look at what happens to us.   We cannot sustain the payouts we've honored.  We will be in trouble...Greece style.  It's just a matter of time.


----------



## hipeter924

Jackson said:


> The big question is,,,,Are Americans taking notice?  If our government keeps growing and we keep paying more and more Americans not to work....look at what happens to us.   We cannot sustain the payouts we've honored.  *We will be in trouble...Greece style.  It's just a matter of time.*


Not really, as unlike Greece, most of the US national debt is internal public debt (as in debt that is based in the US) or is owned by US based banks and financial institutions. But it is worrying that most budget projections have the US building up debt, so that by 2050 the US debt held by the public could be equivalent (in terms of GDP ratio) to what Italy, Spain or Portugal are now facing.


----------



## HenryBHough

If Americans' don't learn from this it'll be their own fault when Obama shows them how much He learned.


----------



## Shrimpbox

The ant and the grasshopper. Now the way it works is that the real suffering of real,people will be plastered all over the TV. Clowns like the new pm of Greece will demagogue the issue. Guilt,will be assigned to those with money and a conspiracy will be claimed that will e taken up by the liberal news media. Let's see, does heartless, greedy, uncaring, inhuman, lack of compassion, ruthless, capitalist, right wing scum ring any bells. The story is always the same as are the tactics.

Can we please applaud the genius of Margaret Thatcher. Socialism works fine til you run out of other people's money.


----------



## SAYIT

hipeter924 said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!
> 
> 
> 
> Syriza and Independent Greeks (ANEL) aren't the ones that built the debt, in fact if anything the have the greatest chance to bring down the debt and stabilize the economy.
> 
> Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) and New Democracy are the two parties which built up the debt, hid figures, and were quite corrupt when they ruled Greece on and off from the 1970s to 2014.
> 
> Ultimately though PASOK is the party that forced the bailout and messed up the Greek economy, so with them out of the picture Greece has a chance to recover.
> 
> So Greece rather than 'funding fakes and phonies' has done the reverse of that by booting out the establishment, even if on the surface Syriza is far-left.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece's current gov't spending outstrips its revenues. There is little reason to believe revenues will be going up any time soon and new foreign loans are about to dry up. *Without real cuts in spending - something Syriza adamantly rejects* - the future of Greece is one of severe austerity. The new Drachmas will literally be worth less than the paper on which they'll be printed. BTW, default does not wipe out the debt. Nice work, guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not true, it agreed to nearly all the terms - but couldn't cut pensions without the equivalent of the collapse of the government and massive civil unrest. Governments have to cut what is politically achievable to cut...
Click to expand...


When Greece took the bailout they signed on to the terms. They reneged. Let's not twist ourselves into pretzels just to excuse the actions of fellow socialists, eh?


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obama the most powerless greatest President Evah!!!
Click to expand...

Well, you're right, Frank, that the president doesn't have the power to raise revenue - that's strictly the Republican House's responsibility.


----------



## Synthaholic

Andylusion said:


> I've noticed that you never have anything of value to add to the conversation


Then fuck off, retard.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> You are the biggest stinking fool on this board.
> Debt was 10T when Bush left office.
> Debt is 18T today.
> Debt will be 20T when Barry leaves.


Yeah, that's called interest, dope.

Strike 1.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> What has Barry done to undo all this "damage" you say Bush caused? Nothing.


Only the House of Representatives control the money.

Strike 2, dope.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.


Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.

Strike 3, dope - you're out!


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Debt was 10T when Bush left office


What was it when he entered office?


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
Click to expand...

You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
Click to expand...

Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?

They've had since 2011.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
Click to expand...


They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.


----------



## Katzndogz

Greece voted not to pay its creditors and have Germany give them more money.

That will be a fun one.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?

Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?
> 
> Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.
Click to expand...

Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them. 

Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".


----------



## IsaacNewton

Huge deficits and debt all of Reagan and Bush Sr. years. Gigantic deficits and debt Bush Jr. years.

Deficits greatly reduced and surpluses gained during Clinton years. Deficits greatly reduced during Obama years.

See a pattern?  Republicans CLAIM to know economics but they always increase the deficit and debt. Democrats always reduce the deficit.

The meme that conservatives constantly throw out that Democrats, and specifically Obama, have added tremendous debt, are utterly false. Clinton and Obama both have been handed huge deficits by their Republican predecessors and they have consistently cut spending and cut the deficit.

But conservatives still live in the Faux News/Fish Dimbaugh bubble of lies.


----------



## Toro

IsaacNewton said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "knife that Greece had to it's throat" was of it's own making. The alleged "fascist" banking cartel would offer liberal debit conditions to a bankrupt country. What other offers does the country consider? Russia would probably give them a good deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All debt everywhere is 'of its own making'.
> 
> And part of the point is, if Europe can turn their back on the cradle of democracy and have them even THINK of going to Russia for help, there is something very wrong with this picture.
> 
> Greece in fact should be demanding the derivatives criminals on Wall Street who, with Bush and the Republicans, created the 2008 crash that caused this worldwide misery to pay the bill. But of course the IMF wouldn't think of asking 'some of their own' to be held accountable for their actions.
> 
> It was in fact a knife being held to the throat of the Greek people. And they said 'fuck off'. Good for them.
> 
> European democracies have lost their way, and it is the financial institutes that are responsible.
Click to expand...


So which European banks put a knife to the throats of the Greeks to borrow so much?  Which European banks forced Greece to join a currency union they had no business joining?


----------



## Toro

occupied said:


> The IMF has a long history of forcing economic policy that makes a country vulnerable to multinational corporations and banks and places much of the burden on a country's poorest and most vulnerable citizens. I am glad someone finally told them to keep their money and their strings.



The IMF is a bit player in this.

I know its easy and fun and appeals to your ideology to demonize the likes of the IMF and the World Bank, but it is the eurozone governments which have bailed out the Greeks.

Greece has no business being a part of the euro.  They should default and leave the eurozone.


----------



## Toro

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives cry 'socialism' about every single thing under the sun. It used to be 'communism', but that got stale. Next year who knows what it will be.
> 
> What we know for sure is Bush and the Republicans destroyed the world economy in 2008 and we've had to climb every so slowly out of that gigantic pit. Yet these same loser now want to tell others how to handle finances.
> 
> Mental, illness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is.
> 
> Look you can't look at government giving a country a loan... and then claim socialism isn't the cause.   It's socialism.
> 
> The private market wouldn't give money to Greece, specifically because they knew it was a bad deal.
> 
> You people just make up whatever facts you want, to support the claims you have already determined to be true, exempt from factual evidence.
Click to expand...


The eurozone governments did not lend money to Greece.  The loans were originally made by the private banks. However, when Greece went bust, the European banks would have also been bust, so the governments backstopped Greek debt and created programs which allowed the banks to offload their Greek (and other PIIGS) debt.  The privately held debt was then transferred to these quasi-governmental institutions, which is why so much of the Greek debt is held by European governments today.


----------



## frigidweirdo

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.



The Greeks are only in the situation they're in because their own politicians are corrupt and useless. They had plenty of chances to sort their lives out, they didn't, and now they're in this mess. What choice did the banks have? Greece was taking the piss.


----------



## Toro

Odium said:


> Good! I was hoping this is what would happen. Golden Dawn was hoping for a NO as was UKIP among others. Hopefully this destroys the EU. A real big FUCK YOU to the Rothschilds.



You're an idiot.


----------



## Missourian

Andylusion said:


> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.



USMB quote of the day.


----------



## danzuc74

hipeter924 said:


> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.


I agree with you.


----------



## Missourian

Y'all might call it something fancy like "Irrational escalation of commitment" or "Sunk costs fallacy"...but in the South,  we call it throwing good money after bad.  

Eventually,  you have to cut you losses rather than incur more losses in a lost cause.


----------



## Linkiloo

As a European myself, I will be thrilled if, this week, Greece is out of the Euro. The bastards actually called Germans terrorists and accused Germany of causing a social holocaust, just because those lazy buggers are not able to earn enough to support themselves.

Cradle of civilisation, my arse. They think they deserve something for nothing. No. We will no longer be funding then, just "because".

Fuck them.


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives cry 'socialism' about every single thing under the sun. It used to be 'communism', but that got stale. Next year who knows what it will be.
> 
> What we know for sure is Bush and the Republicans destroyed the world economy in 2008 and we've had to climb every so slowly out of that gigantic pit. Yet these same loser now want to tell others how to handle finances.
> 
> Mental, illness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is.
> 
> Look you can't look at government giving a country a loan... and then claim socialism isn't the cause.   It's socialism.
> 
> The private market wouldn't give money to Greece, specifically because they knew it was a bad deal.
> 
> You people just make up whatever facts you want, to support the claims you have already determined to be true, exempt from factual evidence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, for you conservatives that live in your forever closed bubble world.
> 
> Reagan tripled the national debt. Bush ran it up from 5 trillion dollars to 11 trillion dollars, left a 1.4 trillion dollar yearly deficit, and destroyed the world economy in the process.
> 
> Yet YOU idiots want to blame everything on 'socialism'?
> 
> Then Reagan and Bush were the all time economy killing money stealing socialists in the history of mankind. And these are the losers YOU people voted into office.
> 
> Your arguments only mean something in your own bubble of conservative delusion-world.
Click to expand...


So in your world, government collecting more tax money, and spending more on government programs....... is free-market capitalism?

What exact is your argument?   Because the only one I'm reading here is "Socialism isn't Socialism!".


----------



## Andylusion

hipeter924 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have to try and think on the positive. At least as a result of this mess Greece has got rid of most of the leaches in the establishment, and with the constant shadow of debt and economic strife they are going to be held constantly to account by the Greek public - unlike the governments previous to 2009 who were able to promise stuff the country couldn't afford (and cheat the books) to keep in power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Russia doesn't have the money to fund Greece.    If they go to Russia, Russia too will impose their own strings on the money, and yet the amount of money they could borrow would be a tiny fraction of what is needed, thus it wouldn't help.
> 
> What strings could Russia impose?   Allowing their major companies to come and "prey and try to suck the life out of it".
> 
> And as far as getting rid of the leaches, that's not what I've read.    If anything, this was to restore public leeches back into the cash flow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never said they would hand over the money, if anything they might get a few subsidies and possibly a trade deal - but not a massive cash injection.
> 
> Ultimately though if Greece left Nato it could cut its military budget a lot, and even be paid by Russia to lease areas for a military base.
> 
> But that is in the worst case scenario, where Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone.
Click to expand...



As near as I can tell, Greece only spends about 5% of their national budget on defense spending.

Further, NATO is paying lease payments for two bases, and for use of an airport.  One of those bases is leased by the US.

If you think that Russia is going to pay a fraction as much as the US does for that base, or NATO does for either one... you are crazy.

Swapping NATO for Russian defense, would be a net loss of income, and unless Greece wants to be defenseless, they would have to step up their own defense spending.

So no, that idea is ridiculous.

Lastly, a huge injection of money, is exactly what the Greek government wants.   If they didn't want a massive injection of cash, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The government of Greece to tell off the EU, and the IMF, and the ECB, and everyone, in 5 seconds.

They could cut their spending, until it matched their tax revenue, and without a need for a loan, completely ignore everyone.

But that's not what they want.  They want to spend money on hospitals, pensions, entitlements, housing, food, mass transit, and on and on and on.

But they don't have the money.  That's why many hospitals are closed, those that are open, have unpaid staff, and many are without supplies.   Pensions have been cut.  Railways have been shut.   And government workers have gone on strike because they are not paid.

The whole reason Greece went to the EU, is because they want a huge injections of money.   If they ditch the EU, and go to Russia, they are not getting it from Russia.   They'll be forced to cut spending anyway.  Forced to cut pensions, and forced to close the mass transit.     Thus defeating the entire purpose of trying to get a loan to begin with.


----------



## TemplarKormac




----------



## CrusaderFrank

IsaacNewton said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "knife that Greece had to it's throat" was of it's own making. The alleged "fascist" banking cartel would offer liberal debit conditions to a bankrupt country. What other offers does the country consider? Russia would probably give them a good deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All debt everywhere is 'of its own making'.
> 
> And part of the point is, if Europe can turn their back on the cradle of democracy and have them even THINK of going to Russia for help, there is something very wrong with this picture.
> 
> Greece in fact should be demanding the derivatives criminals on Wall Street who, with Bush and the Republicans, created the 2008 crash that caused this worldwide misery to pay the bill. But of course the IMF wouldn't think of asking 'some of their own' to be held accountable for their actions.
> 
> It was in fact a knife being held to the throat of the Greek people. And they said 'fuck off'. Good for them.
> 
> European democracies have lost their way, and it is the financial institutes that are responsible.
Click to expand...


Yes, Bush's Fault.

How didn't we see that coming


----------



## sealybobo

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
Click to expand...

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool


----------



## mudwhistle

Synthaholic said:


> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
Click to expand...

We owed just over $9 when he left office.

Obama spent the rest.


----------



## Mac1958

The Euro can't work effectively when 17+ sovereign countries are not on the same page regarding macro fiscal policies.

The Euro was a nice little idea, but it was doomed from the get-go for that reason.  The ECB wants Greece to go, and it should.

.


----------



## sealybobo

Mac1958 said:


> The Euro can't work effectively when 17+ sovereign countries are not on the same page regarding macro fiscal policies.
> 
> The Euro was a nice little idea, but it was doomed from the get-go for that reason.  The ECB wants Greece to go, and it should.
> 
> .


Yes it should go but the divorce should be amicable


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Greeks Go Full Retard. Page 4 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Progressives explain why Greece failed:


Booosh
The Kulaks (1%, da joooose, etc)
It was never really true Progressive redistribution
Austerity
Reagan


----------



## Rexx Taylor

TemplarKormac said:


>


So far no bids on Greece? I thought $1.42 was a steal, alright, lets do this, I will give you Greece, Bulgaria and Baltimore,all for $5.75. well? any bites?


----------



## Rexx Taylor

mudwhistle said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We owed just over $9 when he left office.
> 
> Obama spent the rest.
Click to expand...

lets just Blame Bush on Pearl Harbour and the Haulacaust while we are at it.


----------



## bripat9643

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are the biggest stinking fool on this board.
> Debt was 10T when Bush left office.
> Debt is 18T today.
> Debt will be 20T when Barry leaves.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's called interest, dope.
> 
> Strike 1.
Click to expand...

The interest in $10T amounts to almost 10T dollars?  Checked interest rates on government bonds lately?
What an ignoramus!


----------



## Mac1958

bripat9643 said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.

It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.

.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Barry done to undo all this "damage" you say Bush caused? Nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Only the House of Representatives control the money.
> 
> Strike 2, dope.
Click to expand...

Which the Democrats did for 2 years.  The president submits a budget, ya know.  When did Obama submit a budget that cut spending?   
Moron.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
Click to expand...

So why is spending higher now than before the recession?
Dunce.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite. He has added to the debt at a rate that makes drunken sailors blush.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
Click to expand...

Federal revenues are higher than they've ever been. 
Dunce.


----------



## The Rabbi

Mac1958 said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.


----------



## Mac1958

The Rabbi said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
Click to expand...

I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.

Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.

.


----------



## The Rabbi

Mac1958 said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?


----------



## frigidweirdo

mudwhistle said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We owed just over $9 when he left office.
> 
> Obama spent the rest.
Click to expand...


$9, er.... I remember being in NY City and the number on the debt clock was much higher than $9.


----------



## Toro

The Rabbi said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
Click to expand...


It's a legitimate way to restructure a bank. Deposits are a liability of the bank. A bust bank has to restructure its liabilities. That can include deposits. Before FDIC, banks did that all the time in America.


----------



## The Rabbi

Toro said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a legitimate way to restructure a bank. Deposits are a liability of the bank. A bust bank has to restructure its liabilities. That can include deposits. Before FDIC, banks did that all the time in America.
Click to expand...

I think you're confusing assets with liabilities. If the government is taking people's deposits, it is confiscating an asset of the depositors and a liability of the bank.


----------



## Toro

The Rabbi said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?
Click to expand...


The only way that people in Greece don't get their standards of living cut further is if Europe, ie Germany, bails them out. If Greece doesn't get another loan, they will be right out of money and will probably have to start reissuing drachmas. There is no other way.

In the end, that's probably the best way. Greece leaves the eurozone, reissues its own currency, then restructures its debt.


----------



## Mac1958

Toro said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only way that people in Greece don't get their standards of living cut further is if Europe, ie Germany, bails them out. If Greece doesn't get another loan, they will be right out of money and will probably have to start reissuing drachmas. There is no other way.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and Merkel is not exactly in a giving spirit right now.  Can't blame her.

.


----------



## SAYIT

Linkiloo said:


> As a European myself, I will be thrilled if, this week, Greece is out of the Euro. The bastards actually called Germans terrorists and accused Germany of causing a social holocaust...



First the good news: Greek FM Varoufakis - the lying, bigmouthed jackass responsible for many of his gov'ts outrageous comments - has resigned.
Now the bad news: At age 54 he is probably eligible for a healthy Greek pension and the Germans may be required - by Greek referendum, of course - to pay for it.


----------



## SAYIT

Andylusion said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't have accepted the bailout in 2010, and instead followed Iceland by jailing the bankers and letting the banks default on their own mistakes.
> 
> But what is done is done, and I hope that they manage to get out the abyss.
> 
> The IMF/ECB plan was a joke, and it would have not only forced taxpayers across Europe to fund a money hole, but forced Greeks to sell the country off and eventually default on their debt anyway - making a bigger money hole than if they default this year.
> 
> If it I was up to me, I wouldn't have let it get this far. It would have been better to not intervene at all than push a bailout that Greeks couldn't afford to pay, with conditions so insane that they could only plunge Greece into economic depression and a debt spiral.
> 
> The politicians in the European Union were idiots, as were the economists and bureaucrats who pushed more and more demands on Greece for the bailout, forcing the collapse of the Greek government - because the demands had reached the limit of what Greeks were prepared to accept. Syriza and the collapse of the bailout deal is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like banks in the U.S. approving mortgages for people that couldn't afford the payments. Sound familiar?
> 
> This is world class corrupt banking thievery. The vultures see easy prey and try to suck the life out of it. Who could blame Greece for going to Russia now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have to try and think on the positive. At least as a result of this mess Greece has got rid of most of the leaches in the establishment, and with the constant shadow of debt and economic strife they are going to be held constantly to account by the Greek public - unlike the governments previous to 2009 who were able to promise stuff the country couldn't afford (and cheat the books) to keep in power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Russia doesn't have the money to fund Greece.    If they go to Russia, Russia too will impose their own strings on the money, and yet the amount of money they could borrow would be a tiny fraction of what is needed, thus it wouldn't help.
> 
> What strings could Russia impose?   Allowing their major companies to come and "prey and try to suck the life out of it".
> 
> And as far as getting rid of the leaches, that's not what I've read.    If anything, this was to restore public leeches back into the cash flow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never said they would hand over the money, if anything they might get a few subsidies and possibly a trade deal - but not a massive cash injection.
> 
> Ultimately though if Greece left Nato it could cut its military budget a lot, and even be paid by Russia to lease areas for a military base.
> 
> But that is in the worst case scenario, where Greece is kicked out of the Eurozone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> As near as I can tell, Greece only spends about 5% of their national budget on defense spending.
> 
> Further, NATO is paying lease payments for two bases, and for use of an airport.  One of those bases is leased by the US.
> 
> If you think that Russia is going to pay a fraction as much as the US does for that base, or NATO does for either one... you are crazy.
> 
> Swapping NATO for Russian defense, would be a net loss of income, and unless Greece wants to be defenseless, they would have to step up their own defense spending.
> 
> So no, that idea is ridiculous.
> 
> Lastly, a huge injection of money, is exactly what the Greek government wants.   If they didn't want a massive injection of cash, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> 
> The government of Greece to tell off the EU, and the IMF, and the ECB, and everyone, in 5 seconds.
> 
> They could cut their spending, until it matched their tax revenue, and without a need for a loan, completely ignore everyone.
> 
> But that's not what they want.  They want to spend money on hospitals, pensions, entitlements, housing, food, mass transit, and on and on and on.
> 
> But they don't have the money.  That's why many hospitals are closed, those that are open, have unpaid staff, and many are without supplies.   Pensions have been cut.  Railways have been shut.   And government workers have gone on strike because they are not paid.
> 
> The whole reason Greece went to the EU, is because they want a huge injections of money.   If they ditch the EU, and go to Russia, they are not getting it from Russia.   They'll be forced to cut spending anyway.  Forced to cut pensions, and forced to close the mass transit.     Thus defeating the entire purpose of trying to get a loan to begin with.
Click to expand...


Well said and to summarize: Greece can wiggle and squirm and referendum all they like but in the end (which is near) she will be forced to cut spending and streamline (fire people) gov't agencies. Period.


----------



## The Rabbi

Toro said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only way that people in Greece don't get their standards of living cut further is if Europe, ie Germany, bails them out. If Greece doesn't get another loan, they will be right out of money and will probably have to start reissuing drachmas. There is no other way.
> 
> In the end, that's probably the best way. Greece leaves the eurozone, reissues its own currency, then restructures its debt.
Click to expand...

Germany bailing them out wont help.  What happens when the money from that bailout ends, just like the others have?
Greece is not sustainable.  I suspect even without interest payments on government debt they cannot cover their expenses.  Even bankrupting on the debt, i.e. default, will not solve that problem.
They need a thorough re-ordering of their economy.  But that wont happen without revolution.
Maybe time to restore the monarchy?


----------



## Mr Natural

What Greece needs is some industry.  What do they produce?

Other than tourism (which is fine if you're a small Caribbean island) they have nothing.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Mr Clean said:


> What Greece needs is some industry.  What do they produce?
> 
> Other than tourism (which is fine if you're a small Caribbean island) they have nothing.



^ This!

I thought all they needed was roads and bridges and consumers?


----------



## SAYIT

The Rabbi said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?
Click to expand...


Greece will issue pension and wage IOUs in lieu of Euros (which they don't have) but they won't be worth the paper they'll be printed on.
Then the REAL austerity sets in.


----------



## SAYIT

The Rabbi said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?
Click to expand...


It's the socialist idea of economic justice.
Grab a hammer and sickle, comrade!


----------



## Toro

The Rabbi said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only way that people in Greece don't get their standards of living cut further is if Europe, ie Germany, bails them out. If Greece doesn't get another loan, they will be right out of money and will probably have to start reissuing drachmas. There is no other way.
> 
> In the end, that's probably the best way. Greece leaves the eurozone, reissues its own currency, then restructures its debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Germany bailing them out wont help.  What happens when the money from that bailout ends, just like the others have?
> Greece is not sustainable.  I suspect even without interest payments on government debt they cannot cover their expenses.  Even bankrupting on the debt, i.e. default, will not solve that problem.
> They need a thorough re-ordering of their economy.  But that wont happen without revolution.
> Maybe time to restore the monarchy?
Click to expand...


It's sustainable if the eurozone becomes a permanent transfer union. Then it works.


----------



## SAYIT

Toro said:


> It's sustainable if the eurozone becomes a permanent transfer union. Then it works.



“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” - Margaret Thatcher


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

Synthaholic said:


> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
Click to expand...


Uhm, perhaps you've been sleeping for the last 6 years or so.... Shrub's gone.


----------



## Vigilante




----------



## hipeter924

Andylusion said:


> As near as I can tell, Greece only spends about 5% of their national budget on defense spending.


Greece spends 2.4%+ of GDP (which is roughly 242.2 billion) on defense, which translates to roughly 5 billion a year on defense - which would have been more than enough to make the payment to the IMF: Why Greece s military budget is so high - Business Insider


> For 2015, NATO projects that Greece will spend 2.4% of its GDP on defense, which is actually a 0.1% increase in spending over 2014. The previous year, the country's debt as percentage of GDP was at 175%, while its economy contracted by 3.3%.


 Greek military spending is hardly chump change.


Andylusion said:


> Further, NATO is paying lease payments for two bases, and for use of an airport.  One of those bases is leased by the US. If you think that Russia is going to pay a fraction as much as the US does for that base, or NATO does for either one... you are crazy. Swapping NATO for Russian defense, would be a net loss of income, and unless Greece wants to be defenseless, they would have to step up their own defense spending.


Where did I imply they would receive more but that is beside the point, as it is hypothetical - meaning Russia hasn't specified how much it would pay for a lease. Russia spent at least $4 billion a year on their base in Crimea (including the gas subsidies,etc to Ukraine): Factbox - Costs and benefits from Russia s annexation of Crimea Reuters


> Russia has formally denounced the 2010 Kharkiv Agreements under which Russiaprovided a $100 (59.83 pounds) discount per thousand cubic metres for Ukraine's imports of Russian gas as rent for the Sevastopol naval base, home of Russia's Black Sea Fleet. The deal, which extended the base lease until 2042, cost Russia's budget around $4 billion a year, or around $40 billion over the period covered by the gas contract expiring in 2019.


 It could pay out just as much as the US military base, if not more so, but it ultimately depends on how much they want a base in the Mediterranean.


Andylusion said:


> Lastly, a huge injection of money, is exactly what the Greek government wants.   If they didn't want a massive injection of cash, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> 
> The government of Greece to tell off the EU, and the IMF, and the ECB, and everyone, in 5 seconds.
> 
> They could cut their spending, until it matched their tax revenue, and without a need for a loan, completely ignore everyone.


 They can't cut their spending sufficiently, even if they were to do so, as their debt exceeds $300 billion+, and with a recession and declining GDP their tax revenue shrinks each year. They are not going to get a substantial enough cash injection to revive their economy, as the bailout terms are the anti-thesis of stimulating growth.


Andylusion said:


> But that's not what they want.  They want to spend money on hospitals, pensions, entitlements, housing, food, mass transit, and on and on and on.
> 
> But they don't have the money.  That's why many hospitals are closed, those that are open, have unpaid staff, and many are without supplies.   Pensions have been cut.  Railways have been shut.   And government workers have gone on strike because they are not paid.


  Even if they cut every public service in Greece, and privatized everything they could, they still wouldn't be able to meet those bills. Though realistically cutting services and pensions (or the only lifeline for millions of Greeks), wouldn't help the domestic economy and instead local retailers would suffer a hit and many would be forced to close - as there would be less consumers spending in the economy.


Andylusion said:


> The whole reason Greece went to the EU, is because they want a huge injections of money.   If they ditch the EU, and go to Russia, they are not getting it from Russia.   They'll be forced to cut spending anyway.  Forced to cut pensions, and forced to close the mass transit.     Thus defeating the entire purpose of trying to get a loan to begin with.


 Even if Greece left the EU, which is a hypothetical at this point, it would still be required to pay back its creditors, and it is in no hurry to leave the EU and its institutions. It isn't as if they are going to have a clean slate and walk away, as that isn't how it works - they will have a red card in the monetary system till they come to an agreement with their creditors.

Though I think you are getting confused between the Eurozone (which is the monetary union) and the European Union, because a country can remain in the European Union but not be fully part of the Eurozone. The UK for example is not fully part of the Eurozone, and instead has its own currency: Eurozone - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

On the question of pensions again, the way it goes down is that Greece has to give up on the Euro, then it has to start sending IOUs till it eventually moves to its own currency. They won't be forced to cut pensions and close mass transit, if they cut spending in other areas - which seems to be what Greece wants in negotiation with its creditors.

It is too early to know what will happen with pensions, as if Greece switches to its own currency it would begin to devalue, and pensions would be worth less and less; and obviously the Drachma would buy less than the Euro.


----------



## ScreamingEagle

Vigilante said:


>


and Spaniards and Italians.......


----------



## LogikAndReazon

Who needs to repay their debts anyway ??? The EU should have cut Greece off  a long time ago.  
What to do when you can no longer borrow and spend ?
Leeching's obvious  consequences have come home to roost.

Comical


----------



## Misty

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


Moron. You can't blame republicans for Greece. You ruined your point with your partisan hackery.


----------



## IsaacNewton

sealybobo said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
Click to expand...


Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.

The tax payers made money on the bailout.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Misty said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Moron. You can't blame republicans for Greece. You ruined your point with your partisan hackery.
Click to expand...


Sorry, facts are facts. They hurt the con mind because you are the people that voted that leper colony into power and caused all the damage.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Soggy in NOLA said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uhm, perhaps you've been sleeping for the last 6 years or so.... Shrub's gone.
Click to expand...


Conservatives believe that 3 years after they attacked, the Japanese were no longer responsible for Pearl Harbor.


----------



## Rexx Taylor

Greece being in so much misery/bankrupt, does this mean single men can go there and get great deals from the call girls?


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

IsaacNewton said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
Click to expand...


According to a team at Bloomberg News, at one point last year the U.S. had lent, spent or guaranteed as much as $12.8 trillion to rescue the economy.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
Click to expand...

Thank you, President Bush!


----------



## g5000

IsaacNewton said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
Click to expand...

You are forgetting ZIRP and the Fed printing $85 billion A MONTH.

FOR YEARS!


----------



## g5000

United States Central Bank Balance Sheet 2002-2015 Data Chart


----------



## g5000

Greece's debt, and Italy's debt, and Portugal's deb, and Spain's debt, and France's debt came from...YOU GUYS!

You hacked off a piece of  your monthly income, tossed it at  your 401k manager and told him to build you a nest egg.  "And  you better get me 12 percent ROI, or else!"

Well, in a ZIRP world, there is only one way to make 12 percent interest.  Hell, there's only one way to make 4 percent interest.

By lending money to sub-prime borrowers.  Like Greece.  And Portugal.  And Spain.  And France.


----------



## boedicca

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.




^^^ What an incredibly ignorant post. ^^^

First off, the Greek Government conspired to join the EU. They never should have done it in the first place.  But they used debt to cover their tax receipts to spending gap.   Even without paying any interest payment at all, they would still be running a deficit.  This is the problem that Mob Rule Democracy creates - redistribution of income combined with a moribund economy.   Greek's current debt to GDP ratio is 177%.

The U.S. is heading towards a much bigger Greek-style meltdown.  Under Obama's rule, our debt has exploded.  That is hardly climbing out of the BIPARTISAN 2008 financial crisis.  We just mortgaged the future for a temporary respite.

And what does the Greek decision mean for the Greeks who voted for it:  worse austerity as they can no longer borrow money to make up for the lack of tax receipts.  IF they reform their government to reduce spending, they'll be better off  - but that is a Big IF.

One other consideration:  What do they do for MONEY without the Euro?


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, President Bush!
Click to expand...


Yes I agree, this is one thing Bush and Obama can both be congratulated on. TARP was needed at that moment, even though it appeared quite painful.


----------



## boedicca

IsaacNewton said:


> Misty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Moron. You can't blame republicans for Greece. You ruined your point with your partisan hackery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, facts are facts. They hurt the con mind because you are the people that voted that leper colony into power and caused all the damage.
Click to expand...



You.Are.A.Moron

It's no use trying to explain reality to such a blind buggered boobie.


----------



## saintmichaeldefendthem

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
Click to expand...

You know that bailout was opposed by both sides, don't you? It's further proof that Congress and the Decider didn't care what the American people want.


----------



## bripat9643

Toro said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a legitimate way to restructure a bank. Deposits are a liability of the bank. A bust bank has to restructure its liabilities. That can include deposits. Before FDIC, banks did that all the time in America.
Click to expand...

Wrong.  Before FDIC, banks that couldn't pay off their depositors closed their doors.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## IsaacNewton

boedicca said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ What an incredibly ignorant post. ^^^
> 
> First off, the Greek Government conspired to join the EU. They never should have done it in the first place.  But they used debt to cover their tax receipts to spending gap.   Even without paying any interest payment at all, they would still be running a deficit.  This is the problem that Mob Rule Democracy creates - redistribution of income combined with a moribund economy.   Greek's current debt to GDP ratio is 177%.
> 
> The U.S. is heading towards a much bigger Greek-style meltdown.  Under Obama's rule, our debt has exploded.  That is hardly climbing out of the BIPARTISAN 2008 financial crisis.  We just mortgaged the future for a temporary respite.
> 
> And what does the Greek decision mean for the Greeks who voted for it:  worse austerity as they can no longer borrow money to make up for the lack of tax receipts.  IF they reform their government to reduce spending, they'll be better off  - but that is a Big IF.
> 
> One other consideration:  What do they do for MONEY without the Euro?
Click to expand...


I said in the original post, Greece has tough times ahead no matter how they voted. That is a given. They will have to get their financial house in order and they will.

And I agree the U.S. needs to get our debt paid down and balance the budget EVERY YEAR. And please, it isn't 'Obama', he was handed a 1.4 trillion dollar yearly deficit by Bush and that has been dropping every year since. This year the deficit will be 480 billion, 1 trillion dollars less than when Obama took office. Leave the partisan hackery out.






There should be a Constitutional amendment so Congress can never borrow so much.

But a sovereign nation is never going to allow someone to hold a knife to its throat and tell them what to do, unless the knife is a bayonet at the end of a rifle.

Greece and the rest of Europe will have to get this figured out, and they will. If they don't, if the Eurozone kicks Greece out then likely the Eurozone and the Euro will also slowly fall apart. And as I noted in earlier posts the bad players around the world see how western democracies treat each other at such times. It DOES matter.


----------



## sealybobo

IsaacNewton said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, President Bush!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I agree, this is one thing Bush and Obama can both be congratulated on. TARP was needed at that moment, even though it appeared quite painful.
Click to expand...

You don't get it. Tarp stands for to ass rape people


----------



## Grizz

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.



You dumbshit, the Banks are going to do what is called a "buy in".

Look it up asshole.


----------



## sealybobo

Rather than give the pig bankers the money give it to the Greeks. They'll spend it at least. Don't get tarp'ed Greece!


----------



## saintmichaeldefendthem

IsaacNewton said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, President Bush!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I agree, this is one thing Bush and Obama can both be congratulated on. TARP was needed at that moment, even though it appeared quite painful.
Click to expand...

No. It really wasn't needed. That was the lie.


----------



## sealybobo

Too big to fail my f****** ass. Greek wallstreet shipping giants and bankers. Divide and conquer. First Greece actually before Greece it was France and the middle East and Detroit and Puerto Rico. The bankers are getting what they want. The rich are winning this war. Meanwhile they tell us no war is being waged. Worse they claim its us waging war on them. A war we are losing.

I may be a lot more optimistic this year then I was in years past but I am certainly not going back to the Republican Party. haven't been there since Reagan and that was his first term


----------



## sealybobo

saintmichaeldefendthem said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, President Bush!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I agree, this is one thing Bush and Obama can both be congratulated on. TARP was needed at that moment, even though it appeared quite painful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. It really wasn't needed. That was the lie.
Click to expand...

Just because a few years have past doesn't change the facts of what happened back then and these Republicans want to act like speaking the truth is being a conspiracy theorist


----------



## Grizz

IsaacNewton said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ What an incredibly ignorant post. ^^^
> 
> First off, the Greek Government conspired to join the EU. They never should have done it in the first place.  But they used debt to cover their tax receipts to spending gap.   Even without paying any interest payment at all, they would still be running a deficit.  This is the problem that Mob Rule Democracy creates - redistribution of income combined with a moribund economy.   Greek's current debt to GDP ratio is 177%.
> 
> The U.S. is heading towards a much bigger Greek-style meltdown.  Under Obama's rule, our debt has exploded.  That is hardly climbing out of the BIPARTISAN 2008 financial crisis.  We just mortgaged the future for a temporary respite.
> 
> And what does the Greek decision mean for the Greeks who voted for it:  worse austerity as they can no longer borrow money to make up for the lack of tax receipts.  IF they reform their government to reduce spending, they'll be better off  - but that is a Big IF.
> 
> One other consideration:  What do they do for MONEY without the Euro?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I said in the original post, Greece has tough times ahead no matter how they voted. That is a given. They will have to get their financial house in order and they will.
> 
> And I agree the U.S. needs to get our debt paid down and balance the budget EVERY YEAR. And please, it isn't 'Obama', he was handed a 1.4 trillion dollar yearly deficit by Bush and that has been dropping every year since. This year the deficit will be 480 billion, 1 trillion dollars less than when Obama took office. Leave the partisan hackery out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There should be a Constitutional amendment so Congress can never borrow so much.
> 
> But a sovereign nation is never going to allow someone to hold a knife to its throat and tell them what to do, unless the knife is a bayonet at the end of a rifle.
> 
> Greece and the rest of Europe will have to get this figured out, and they will. If they don't, if the Eurozone kicks Greece out then likely the Eurozone and the Euro will also slowly fall apart. And as I noted in earlier posts the bad players around the world see how western democracies treat each other at such times. It DOES matter.
Click to expand...


Correction, a "bail in".

There are no free rides kid.


----------



## bripat9643

SAYIT said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how the hell they sell THAT to their people.
> 
> Maybe some kind of "us against them" rallying cry, who knows.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its pretty simple: If they dont do this then all those pension checks and welfare benefits wont get paid.  Since those without bank accounts outnumber those with bank accounts, who will get the short end here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece will issue pension and wage IOUs in lieu of Euros (which they don't have) but they won't be worth the paper they'll be printed on.
> Then the REAL austerity sets in.
Click to expand...


When the retirees stop getting their government checks, they'll learn the meaning of national bankruptcy.  Libturds need to pay close attention.


----------



## sealybobo

saintmichaeldefendthem said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, President Bush!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I agree, this is one thing Bush and Obama can both be congratulated on. TARP was needed at that moment, even though it appeared quite painful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. It really wasn't needed. That was the lie.
Click to expand...

I wish somebody would put together a well done documentary on all the things that happened between 2000 al gore supreme court justice decision 911 the recessions the tarp stimulus tax breaks jobs going overseas wars etc.  because it does seem like a lot of people have forgotten all the s*** we went through. But why bother. Republicans won't respect anything they see they'll just call the producer another Michael Moore. And most normal people aren't really interested in politics. We see that in the poll numbers


----------



## saintmichaeldefendthem

sealybobo said:


> saintmichaeldefendthem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, President Bush!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I agree, this is one thing Bush and Obama can both be congratulated on. TARP was needed at that moment, even though it appeared quite painful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. It really wasn't needed. That was the lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wish somebody would put together a well done documentary all the things that happened between 2000 al gore springs court justice 911 3 sessions the tarp stimulus text size wars etc.  because it does seem like a lot of people have forgotten all the s*** we went through. But why bother. Republicans won't respect anything they see so just call the producer another Michael Moore. And most normal people aren't reallu interested in politics. We see that in the poll numbers
Click to expand...

Both parties screwed us over.


----------



## sealybobo

saintmichaeldefendthem said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saintmichaeldefendthem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, President Bush!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I agree, this is one thing Bush and Obama can both be congratulated on. TARP was needed at that moment, even though it appeared quite painful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. It really wasn't needed. That was the lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wish somebody would put together a well done documentary all the things that happened between 2000 al gore springs court justice 911 3 sessions the tarp stimulus text size wars etc.  because it does seem like a lot of people have forgotten all the s*** we went through. But why bother. Republicans won't respect anything they see so just call the producer another Michael Moore. And most normal people aren't reallu interested in politics. We see that in the poll numbers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You seem to forget both parties screwed us over by making us bail out banks and other industries. Stop with the hackery already.
Click to expand...

That would be like pretending not to know who's at fault for this.

Maybe if for once you Republicans were honest but I have never heard a Republican admit bush and the GOP caused the recession I've heard Republicans say it's the Democrats fault and I've heard people like you try to give everybody a little bit of peace of the blame f*** that.


----------



## Shrimpbox

Ya gotta love it. The thread starts with the Greek situation and somehow we get to its all bush's fault. There is no connection between the two but you can't debate ignorant partisans. Speaking of ignorant partisans the op is exhibit A of an extreme partisan who is fully ignorant of economics. Did you know that the Greek govt created two extra months for the year so that they could get around pay ceilings. Everyone in Greece does not pay their fair share in taxes. I guess the U.S. Is the only country where that mantra is important. The Greek govt is actually stealing money from other Europeans to live high on the hog. You can lead a liberal to the truth, but you can't make them drink. Any way, a small sample of corruption that our rabid lefties will not read. I love your yogurt Greece, but you made this bed and now you have to sleep in it.

The Big Fat Greek Gravy Train A special investigation into the EU-funded culture of greed tax evasion and scandalous waste Daily Mail Online


----------



## sealybobo

Shrimpbox said:


> Ya gotta love it. The thread starts with the Greek situation and somehow we get to its all bush's fault. There is no connection between the two but you can't debate ignorant partisans. Speaking of ignorant partisans the op is exhibit A of an extreme partisan who is fully ignorant of economics. Did you know that the Greek govt created two extra months for the year so that they could get around pay ceilings. Everyone in Greece does not pay their fair share in taxes. I guess the U.S. Is the only country where that mantra is important. The Greek govt is actually stealing money from other Europeans to live high on the hog. You can lead a liberal to the truth, but you can't make them drink. Any way, a small sample of corruption that our rabid lefties will not read. I love your yogurt Greece, but you made this bed and now you have to sleep in it.
> 
> The Big Fat Greek Gravy Train A special investigation into the EU-funded culture of greed tax evasion and scandalous waste Daily Mail Online


Much richer and educated people closer to the situation admit both sides are right.

I agree. Only conservatives refuse to ever admit fucking maybe their policies have something to do with it. 

I say the rich are more wrong. But of course they and you think the tax burden should be shifted more onto us. Not only that you think we should get less for our taxes. God damn fool


----------



## sealybobo

Shrimpbox said:


> Ya gotta love it. The thread starts with the Greek situation and somehow we get to its all bush's fault. There is no connection between the two but you can't debate ignorant partisans. Speaking of ignorant partisans the op is exhibit A of an extreme partisan who is fully ignorant of economics. Did you know that the Greek govt created two extra months for the year so that they could get around pay ceilings. Everyone in Greece does not pay their fair share in taxes. I guess the U.S. Is the only country where that mantra is important. The Greek govt is actually stealing money from other Europeans to live high on the hog. You can lead a liberal to the truth, but you can't make them drink. Any way, a small sample of corruption that our rabid lefties will not read. I love your yogurt Greece, but you made this bed and now you have to sleep in it.
> 
> The Big Fat Greek Gravy Train A special investigation into the EU-funded culture of greed tax evasion and scandalous waste Daily Mail Online


If you make less than $400k a year basically you think you should pay more so people that make over can pay less.

And you say you know how to pay off the debt?


----------



## BlackBart

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


So soon they starve......oh well, thank the union scum.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the stimulus, which was 1/3 tax cuts, he hasn't spent anything - the GOP House won't let him.
> 
> Strike 3, dope - you're out!
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?
> 
> Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them.
> 
> Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".
Click to expand...


Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.

And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.  

Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.


----------



## Synthaholic

Toro said:


> So which European banks put a knife to the throats of the Greeks to borrow so much?


In reality, the bankers were putting the knife to their own throats.


----------



## Synthaholic

Andylusion said:


> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.


No, the banks who made the ill-advised loans.


----------



## Synthaholic

Andylusion said:


> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.



In 2008 was the US the latest victim of capitalist suicide?


----------



## bripat9643

g5000 said:


> Greece's debt, and Italy's debt, and Portugal's deb, and Spain's debt, and France's debt came from...YOU GUYS!
> 
> You hacked off a piece of  your monthly income, tossed it at  your 401k manager and told him to build you a nest egg.  "And  you better get me 12 percent ROI, or else!"
> 
> Well, in a ZIRP world, there is only one way to make 12 percent interest.  Hell, there's only one way to make 4 percent interest.
> 
> By lending money to sub-prime borrowers.  Like Greece.  And Portugal.  And Spain.  And France.



So it's our fault that Greece borrowed more than it could pay off?  Seriously?


----------



## Toro

bripat9643 said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a legitimate way to restructure a bank. Deposits are a liability of the bank. A bust bank has to restructure its liabilities. That can include deposits. Before FDIC, banks did that all the time in America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.  Before FDIC, banks that couldn't pay off their depositors closed their doors.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Banks that couldn't pay off their depositors _in full_ either were shut down, borrowed from other banks or called capital from their shareholders to meet their claims, or were sold.  If the bank was shut down, all liabilities were paid off based on the assets of a bank, just like any other bankrupt business.  Deposits are liabilities of the bank, and depositors have claims on the bank.  So when a bank was insolvent, the assets were liquidated and claims holders, including depositors, were paid back at less than par.


----------



## Toro

sealybobo said:


> Too big to fail my f****** ass. Greek wallstreet shipping giants and bankers. Divide and conquer. First Greece actually before Greece it was France and the middle East and Detroit and Puerto Rico. The bankers are getting what they want. The rich are winning this war. Meanwhile they tell us no war is being waged. Worse they claim its us waging war on them. A war we are losing.
> 
> I may be a lot more optimistic this year then I was in years past but I am certainly not going back to the Republican Party. haven't been there since Reagan and that was his first term



The bankers aren't getting what they want with Greece, Detroit, Puerto Rico, etc.  Banks want to get paid back and earn interest.  Those jurisdictions aren't paying them back.


----------



## Linkiloo

IsaacNewton said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ What an incredibly ignorant post. ^^^
> 
> First off, the Greek Government conspired to join the EU. They never should have done it in the first place.  But they used debt to cover their tax receipts to spending gap.   Even without paying any interest payment at all, they would still be running a deficit.  This is the problem that Mob Rule Democracy creates - redistribution of income combined with a moribund economy.   Greek's current debt to GDP ratio is 177%.
> 
> The U.S. is heading towards a much bigger Greek-style meltdown.  Under Obama's rule, our debt has exploded.  That is hardly climbing out of the BIPARTISAN 2008 financial crisis.  We just mortgaged the future for a temporary respite.
> 
> And what does the Greek decision mean for the Greeks who voted for it:  worse austerity as they can no longer borrow money to make up for the lack of tax receipts.  IF they reform their government to reduce spending, they'll be better off  - but that is a Big IF.
> 
> One other consideration:  What do they do for MONEY without the Euro?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I said in the original post, Greece has tough times ahead no matter how they voted. That is a given. *They will have to get their financial house in order and they will.*
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There should be a Constitutional amendment so Congress can never borrow so much.
> 
> But a sovereign nation is never going to allow someone to hold a knife to its throat and tell them what to do, unless the knife is a bayonet at the end of a rifle.
> 
> Greece and the rest of Europe will have to get this figured out, and they will. If they don't, if the Eurozone kicks Greece out then likely the Eurozone and the Euro will also slowly fall apart. And as I noted in earlier posts the bad players around the world see how western democracies treat each other at such times. It DOES matter.
Click to expand...

 I don't know how you realistically conclude that Greece will simply sort itself out, as if that were no problem at all. It won't. It needs to get out of a currency it cannot keep up with.  No reason to claim that the Eurozone will fail because its tiny member did. In fact I think that squeezing the failures out will strengthen the Euro.

Western democracies owe each other zilch. Bad players as you call them can actually udnerstand that it makes no sense to throw good money after bad. I don't see Putin rushing in to save the Greeks, or China for that matter.


----------



## Mac1958

bripat9643 said:


> So it's our fault that Greece borrowed more than it could pay off?  Seriously?


Don't be surprised to see this argument pop up.

Remember - all those American borrowers who took out loans they know they shouldn't have and defaulted on them - leading to our own Meltdown - were the "victims".

This argument could show itself any time now, it's all the banks' fault.

.


----------



## Politico

Two Thumbs said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rexx Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> we owe 18 Trillion dollars!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Dubya!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> derp adds derp to the derp
Click to expand...

That.


----------



## bripat9643

Toro said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is Greece going to force the banks to lend it more money?  I hope the banks aren't foolish enough to do it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a legitimate way to restructure a bank. Deposits are a liability of the bank. A bust bank has to restructure its liabilities. That can include deposits. Before FDIC, banks did that all the time in America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.  Before FDIC, banks that couldn't pay off their depositors closed their doors.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Banks that couldn't pay off their depositors _in full_ either were shut down, borrowed from other banks or called capital from their shareholders to meet their claims, or were sold.  If the bank was shut down, all liabilities were paid off based on the assets of a bank, just like any other bankrupt business.  Deposits are liabilities of the bank, and depositors have claims on the bank.  So when a bank was insolvent, the assets were liquidated and claims holders, including depositors, were paid back at less than par.
Click to expand...


In other words, just what I said.


----------



## sealybobo

Toro said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too big to fail my f****** ass. Greek wallstreet shipping giants and bankers. Divide and conquer. First Greece actually before Greece it was France and the middle East and Detroit and Puerto Rico. The bankers are getting what they want. The rich are winning this war. Meanwhile they tell us no war is being waged. Worse they claim its us waging war on them. A war we are losing.
> 
> I may be a lot more optimistic this year then I was in years past but I am certainly not going back to the Republican Party. haven't been there since Reagan and that was his first term
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bankers aren't getting what they want with Greece, Detroit, Puerto Rico, etc.  Banks want to get paid back and earn interest.  Those jurisdictions aren't paying them back.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about them. They'll get their money back and yours


----------



## Mad Scientist

Imagine that you couldn't make your car payment and the Loan Company wanted to repossess it in Greek Bailout Terms:

We're here to repo yer car, unless we can work something out?
Ok what?
We extend the loan from 5 years to 10 and we put a tax on everyone that rides along with you.
Uh, what?
Anyone that rides with you will be taxed per mile. Think of it as a "Tourist Tax" or a "Value Added Tax".
Uh, then I couldn't take anybody along with me! No one would want to pay the Tax! Then I'd REALLY be in a hole!
*Yeah, that's the goal!*


----------



## Mad Scientist

RetiredGySgt said:


> Retard alert, You borrow money you pay it back. Anything less is theft. Greece needs to stop paying people not to work and paying it's legal debt.


Retard alert. If Greece cant pay the debt then it must be forgiven (This is Biblical). You can't expect the citizens of ANY country to be made Debt Slaves forever. 

Iceland went after the Bankers and they found out they really only owed about 5% of what the Bankers wanted them to pay back. 

I'm sure its the same with Greece.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?
> 
> Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them.
> 
> Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.
> 
> And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.
> 
> Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.
Click to expand...

Gee all those were under Bush and when he left office the debt was $10T and now its $18T.  It's like Obama did nothing for 7 years!


----------



## The Rabbi

Toro said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too big to fail my f****** ass. Greek wallstreet shipping giants and bankers. Divide and conquer. First Greece actually before Greece it was France and the middle East and Detroit and Puerto Rico. The bankers are getting what they want. The rich are winning this war. Meanwhile they tell us no war is being waged. Worse they claim its us waging war on them. A war we are losing.
> 
> I may be a lot more optimistic this year then I was in years past but I am certainly not going back to the Republican Party. haven't been there since Reagan and that was his first term
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bankers aren't getting what they want with Greece, Detroit, Puerto Rico, etc.  Banks want to get paid back and earn interest.  Those jurisdictions aren't paying them back.
Click to expand...

The banks were largely paid off in previous bail outs by the IMF et all.  They wont suffer much in this.  People have seen it coming for some time.


----------



## SAYIT

Mad Scientist said:


> Imagine that you couldn't make your car payment and the Loan Company wanted to repossess it in Greek Bailout Terms:
> 
> We're here to repo yer car, unless we can work something out?
> Ok what?
> We extend the loan from 5 years to 10 and we put a tax on everyone that rides along with you.
> Uh, what?
> Anyone that rides with you will be taxed per mile. Think of it as a "Tourist Tax" or a "Value Added Tax".
> Uh, then I couldn't take anybody along with me! No one would want to pay the Tax! Then I'd REALLY be in a hole!
> *Yeah, that's the goal!*



Of course, in your analogy the creditor can snag the car and recover some or all of the deadbeat's debt. In the case of Greece there is nothing to repo.


----------



## Grizz

Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.


----------



## The Rabbi

Grizz said:


> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.


I have seen no evidence of that, although I wouldnt put it past them
Greece is unsustainable.  It will require nothing short of revolution to fix the problem.


----------



## Mad Scientist

SAYIT said:


> Of course, in your analogy the creditor can snag the car and recover some or all of the deadbeat's debt. In the case of Greece there is nothing to repo.


You miss the point.

The Creditor doesn't want to repo the car because that would be the end of it. What the Creditor wants is to make that person, in this case the *entire country* of Greece, debt slaves.

This is why the Greeks voted no.


----------



## Mad Scientist

The Rabbi said:


> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen no evidence of that, although I wouldnt put it past them
> Greece is unsustainable.  It will require nothing short of revolution to fix the problem.
Click to expand...

Iceland didn't need a revolution. They just audited and kicked out the bankers. Turns out 90% of the debt the Banks SAID they owed wasn't theirs at all.


----------



## Katzndogz

Grizz said:


> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.


The banks aren't seizing the depositor's funds.   The government is seizing the depositor's funds from the banks.   This is what Cypress did.  The government just took all the money.


----------



## Grizz

The Rabbi said:


> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen no evidence of that, although I wouldnt put it past them
> Greece is unsustainable.  It will require nothing short of revolution to fix the problem.
Click to expand...


Just google "bail in", I'd post it but I'm on my phone


----------



## Mad Scientist

Bail Out: Banks get Money from Federal Reserve. Taxpayers get the Bill.
Bail In: Banks take depositors money from Banks. Taxpayers get the Bill AND Depositors LOSE their money!.

Via ZeroHedge:






Hint: The *Depositor* has his hands up.

Coming soon to America.


----------



## Grizz

Tipsycatlover said:


> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.
> 
> 
> 
> The banks aren't seizing the depositor's funds.   The government is seizing the depositor's funds from the banks.   This is what Cypress did.  The government just took all the money.
Click to expand...


Thank you, point being they are going to take the people's money, there is no free ride as the OP suggests. This is my problem with many people on the Left, they never weigh the consequences.


----------



## The Rabbi

Mad Scientist said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen no evidence of that, although I wouldnt put it past them
> Greece is unsustainable.  It will require nothing short of revolution to fix the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Iceland didn't need a revolution. They just audited and kicked out the bankers. Turns out 90% of the debt the Banks SAID they owed wasn't theirs at all.
Click to expand...

Iceland=/Greece.
Next.


----------



## The Rabbi

Grizz said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen no evidence of that, although I wouldnt put it past them
> Greece is unsustainable.  It will require nothing short of revolution to fix the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just google "bail in", I'd post it but I'm on my phone
Click to expand...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9963b74c-219c-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html#axzz3fE66k1IP


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand how government works. You realize that Congress writes legislation, and the President signs bills written by Congress into law?
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?
> 
> Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them.
> 
> Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.
> 
> And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.
> 
> Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.
Click to expand...

You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have. 

You are an incredibly unintelligent  person. On one hand, you seriously claim that spending doesn't cause debt. Than you cite examples of massive sending like entitlement expanding and the Iraq war.  Cognitive dissonance much?


----------



## IsaacNewton

Linkiloo said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ What an incredibly ignorant post. ^^^
> 
> First off, the Greek Government conspired to join the EU. They never should have done it in the first place.  But they used debt to cover their tax receipts to spending gap.   Even without paying any interest payment at all, they would still be running a deficit.  This is the problem that Mob Rule Democracy creates - redistribution of income combined with a moribund economy.   Greek's current debt to GDP ratio is 177%.
> 
> The U.S. is heading towards a much bigger Greek-style meltdown.  Under Obama's rule, our debt has exploded.  That is hardly climbing out of the BIPARTISAN 2008 financial crisis.  We just mortgaged the future for a temporary respite.
> 
> And what does the Greek decision mean for the Greeks who voted for it:  worse austerity as they can no longer borrow money to make up for the lack of tax receipts.  IF they reform their government to reduce spending, they'll be better off  - but that is a Big IF.
> 
> One other consideration:  What do they do for MONEY without the Euro?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I said in the original post, Greece has tough times ahead no matter how they voted. That is a given. *They will have to get their financial house in order and they will.*
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There should be a Constitutional amendment so Congress can never borrow so much.
> 
> But a sovereign nation is never going to allow someone to hold a knife to its throat and tell them what to do, unless the knife is a bayonet at the end of a rifle.
> 
> Greece and the rest of Europe will have to get this figured out, and they will. If they don't, if the Eurozone kicks Greece out then likely the Eurozone and the Euro will also slowly fall apart. And as I noted in earlier posts the bad players around the world see how western democracies treat each other at such times. It DOES matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know how you realistically conclude that Greece will simply sort itself out, as if that were no problem at all. It won't. It needs to get out of a currency it cannot keep up with.  No reason to claim that the Eurozone will fail because its tiny member did. In fact I think that squeezing the failures out will strengthen the Euro.
> 
> Western democracies owe each other zilch. Bad players as you call them can actually udnerstand that it makes no sense to throw good money after bad. I don't see Putin rushing in to save the Greeks, or China for that matter.
Click to expand...


Its easy, when you have no choice you figure it out. The other nations in the Eurozone are already talking to Greece on how to fix things. No one has a choice. And yes, if Greece is forced to leave the Eurozone it will slowly break apart, all you have to do is watch the financial networks and European news networks.

"Bad players as you call them can actually udnerstand that it makes no sense to throw good money after bad."   Your level of naivete is stunning.


----------



## SAYIT

Mad Scientist said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, in your analogy the creditor can snag the car and recover some or all of the deadbeat's debt. In the case of Greece there is nothing to repo.
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The Creditor doesn't want to repo the car because that would be the end of it. What the Creditor wants is to make that person, in this case the *entire country* of Greece, debt slaves.
> 
> This is why the Greeks voted no.
Click to expand...


You just don't get it. THERE IS NO CAR (nor anything else) to repossess. Greece borrowed _from its neighbors_ on its good name as a sovereign European State and fellow EZ member. They signed on to the agreements and promised to use the money to grow their economy so as to repay their benefactors and create domestic prosperity. Greece lied, cheated and with their recent default on the IMF loan, have stolen. I take it you are a card-carrying member of their socialist (gimme, gimme, gimme) club.


----------



## Mad Scientist

Just 10% went to the Greek People, the rest went to the Bankers.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...eeces-bailout-money-go-mostly-to-the-lenders/


----------



## montelatici

Mad Scientist said:


> Just 10% went to the Greek People, the rest went to the Bankers.
> 
> http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...eeces-bailout-money-go-mostly-to-the-lenders/



Yes, I quoted another article on another thread that calculated the same figure.  Essentially, taxpayers are taking on debt to be paid back in taxes to pay interest to holders of Greek bonds. LOL


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.  What legislation has the GOP House, under Boehner, written to raise revenue toward paying off the debt?
> 
> They've had since 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?
> 
> Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them.
> 
> Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.
> 
> And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.
> 
> Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Gee all those were under Bush and when he left office the debt was $10T and now its $18T.  It's like Obama did nothing for 7 years!
Click to expand...

Republicans forced austerity upon us, blocking and filibustering every revenue-producing bill.  Then, they forced sequestration upon us, and blocked Obama's efforts to force overseas money to come home and be taxed, which could be used to pay down the debt.  Republicans also are blocking the cancellation of military contracts for items that the military says they don't want or need.  That is money - 10s of billions - that could be used to pay down the debt.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Grizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids the Banks are preparing to seize depositors money. There is no free ride.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen no evidence of that, although I wouldnt put it past them
> Greece is unsustainable.  It will require nothing short of revolution to fix the problem.
Click to expand...

All it needs is a capable IRS.


----------



## Sun Devil 92

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> They have written continuing resolutions, which the president has signed into law. So to say the President "hasn't spent anything", is patently false.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?
> 
> Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them.
> 
> Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.
> 
> And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.
> 
> Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Gee all those were under Bush and when he left office the debt was $10T and now its $18T.  It's like Obama did nothing for 7 years!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Republicans forced austerity upon us, blocking and filibustering every revenue-producing bill.  Then, they forced sequestration upon us, and blocked Obama's efforts to force overseas money to come home and be taxed, which could be used to pay down the debt.  Republicans also are blocking the cancellation of military contracts for items that the military says they don't want or need.  That is money - 10s of billions - that could be used to pay down the debt.
Click to expand...


I think some references or links would be useful.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.


You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.

We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.


----------



## Synthaholic

Sun Devil 92 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about bills to fund the people's government?
> 
> Or are you talking about big money Obama projects that cost trillions?  Because there aren't any of those.
> 
> 
> 
> Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them.
> 
> Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.
> 
> And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.
> 
> Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Gee all those were under Bush and when he left office the debt was $10T and now its $18T.  It's like Obama did nothing for 7 years!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Republicans forced austerity upon us, blocking and filibustering every revenue-producing bill.  Then, they forced sequestration upon us, and blocked Obama's efforts to force overseas money to come home and be taxed, which could be used to pay down the debt.  Republicans also are blocking the cancellation of military contracts for items that the military says they don't want or need.  That is money - 10s of billions - that could be used to pay down the debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think some references or links would be useful.
Click to expand...

Congress Pushes for Weapons Pentagon Didn t Want Military.com


----------



## Sun Devil 92

Synthaholic said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Continuing Resolutions to fund the government cost trillions, and Obama signs them.
> 
> Seven and half trillion dollars in debt since he entered office is a "big money project".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.
> 
> And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.
> 
> Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Gee all those were under Bush and when he left office the debt was $10T and now its $18T.  It's like Obama did nothing for 7 years!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Republicans forced austerity upon us, blocking and filibustering every revenue-producing bill.  Then, they forced sequestration upon us, and blocked Obama's efforts to force overseas money to come home and be taxed, which could be used to pay down the debt.  Republicans also are blocking the cancellation of military contracts for items that the military says they don't want or need.  That is money - 10s of billions - that could be used to pay down the debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think some references or links would be useful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Congress Pushes for Weapons Pentagon Didn t Want Military.com
Click to expand...


Thank you.

Now, can you provide the debt impact....do you have an article on that ?


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
Click to expand...

Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
Click to expand...

Obama passed a trillion dollar stimulus with lots of public works projects and we've had 7 years of the most tepid growth post War in history.


----------



## montelatici

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
Click to expand...


The money comes from the presses, that's where the money for infrastructure spending stimulus has always come from.  One of the reasons the Eurozone is in the mess it is in is because the Germans refused to allow the massive QE that the U.S. implemented in 2008 and that continued until a few months ago.


----------



## The Rabbi

montelatici said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The money comes from the presses, that's where the money for infrastructure spending stimulus has always come from.  One of the reasons the Eurozone is in the mess it is in is because the Germans refused to allow the massive QE that the U.S. implemented in 2008 and that continued until a few months ago.
Click to expand...

Money doesnt come from presses.  Inflation comes from presses.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Headlines the last couple days, "Greece in talks with Russia", "Russia, China and other nations form new world bank", "Greece could leave Nato".

As I said, all the bad players around the world are watching. A vacuum in politics is quickly filled and the Eurozone and Nato better get this figured out, there is a lot more at stake than an economy that is about the same size as Miami or Seattle.

Predatory lending is shifting the balance of economic power to nations we'd rather didn't have it.

You dimbos that want to compare Greece to lending your uncle money, you see the difference now?


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> Headlines the last couple days, "Greece in talks with Russia", "Russia, China and other nations form new world bank", "Greece could leave Nato".
> 
> As I said, all the bad players around the world are watching. A vacuum in politics is quickly filled and the Eurozone and Nato better get this figured out, there is a lot more at stake than an economy that is about the same size as Miami or Seattle.
> 
> Predatory lending is shifting the balance of economic power to nations we'd rather didn't have it.
> 
> You dimbos that want to compare Greece to lending your uncle money, you see the difference now?


You're a dumbass.
Russia has no money.  They cant bail Greece out, much less keep them supplied with a flow of funds.  Check the Chinese stock markets today--total freefall.  They have their own problems.
There was no predatory lending.  There was predatory borrowing.  And now the Greeks have been caught up in it.  Best thing for Europe is to flush those socialist turds down the toilet of history and let them figure it out for themselves.


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Headlines the last couple days, "Greece in talks with Russia", "Russia, China and other nations form new world bank", "Greece could leave Nato".
> 
> As I said, all the bad players around the world are watching. A vacuum in politics is quickly filled and the Eurozone and Nato better get this figured out, there is a lot more at stake than an economy that is about the same size as Miami or Seattle.
> 
> Predatory lending is shifting the balance of economic power to nations we'd rather didn't have it.
> 
> You dimbos that want to compare Greece to lending your uncle money, you see the difference now?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a dumbass.
> Russia has no money.  They cant bail Greece out, much less keep them supplied with a flow of funds.  Check the Chinese stock markets today--total freefall.  They have their own problems.
> There was no predatory lending.  There was predatory borrowing.  And now the Greeks have been caught up in it.  Best thing for Europe is to flush those socialist turds down the toilet of history and let them figure it out for themselves.
Click to expand...


Ah yes, the naïve speak. You must be a supporter of Ronald The Socialist Raygun.

Prolonged exposure to con-talk-radio and Faux News will turn your mind to extremely mallable mush. Et tu Brute?


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Headlines the last couple days, "Greece in talks with Russia", "Russia, China and other nations form new world bank", "Greece could leave Nato".
> 
> As I said, all the bad players around the world are watching. A vacuum in politics is quickly filled and the Eurozone and Nato better get this figured out, there is a lot more at stake than an economy that is about the same size as Miami or Seattle.
> 
> Predatory lending is shifting the balance of economic power to nations we'd rather didn't have it.
> 
> You dimbos that want to compare Greece to lending your uncle money, you see the difference now?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a dumbass.
> Russia has no money.  They cant bail Greece out, much less keep them supplied with a flow of funds.  Check the Chinese stock markets today--total freefall.  They have their own problems.
> There was no predatory lending.  There was predatory borrowing.  And now the Greeks have been caught up in it.  Best thing for Europe is to flush those socialist turds down the toilet of history and let them figure it out for themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah yes, the naïve speak. You must be a supporter of Ronald The Socialist Raygun.
> 
> Prolonged exposure to con-talk-radio and Faux News will turn your mind to extremely mallable mush. Et tu Brute?
Click to expand...

So you cannot answer any of my points or defend your own views.
This is typical.  You're a waste of bandwidth.


----------



## LogikAndReazon

The Greeks understand that they need to borrow and spend to promote growth !  Just like obama understands.

Bureaucrats to the rescue !   Lol


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Headlines the last couple days, "Greece in talks with Russia", "Russia, China and other nations form new world bank", "Greece could leave Nato".
> 
> As I said, all the bad players around the world are watching. A vacuum in politics is quickly filled and the Eurozone and Nato better get this figured out, there is a lot more at stake than an economy that is about the same size as Miami or Seattle.
> 
> Predatory lending is shifting the balance of economic power to nations we'd rather didn't have it.
> 
> You dimbos that want to compare Greece to lending your uncle money, you see the difference now?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a dumbass.
> Russia has no money.  They cant bail Greece out, much less keep them supplied with a flow of funds.  Check the Chinese stock markets today--total freefall.  They have their own problems.
> There was no predatory lending.  There was predatory borrowing.  And now the Greeks have been caught up in it.  Best thing for Europe is to flush those socialist turds down the toilet of history and let them figure it out for themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah yes, the naïve speak. You must be a supporter of Ronald The Socialist Raygun.
> 
> Prolonged exposure to con-talk-radio and Faux News will turn your mind to extremely mallable mush. Et tu Brute?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you cannot answer any of my points or defend your own views.
> This is typical.  You're a waste of bandwidth.
Click to expand...


Nah, you are just one angry frother. You poor thing, you think you have coherence but you don't.

Conservatives don't understand economics, going all the way back to Raygun. They never have and never will.


----------



## LogikAndReazon

Greece only needs to raise the minimum wage to right the economy.
And invest in infrastructure and sustained energy........ Lmfao


----------



## dcraelin

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.



I think the scum bankers got out early, the people on the hook now are taxpayers in the rest of Europe.  Still the best course for both Europe and Greece is for Greece to get out of the European Union and create their own currency.


----------



## Toro

bripat9643 said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They appear to be hoping to shame people into loaning them money, holding their people for ransom.
> 
> It's a high-risk, lousy investment, and everyone knows it, that's why they want Greece on its own.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> I heard the plan was they will simply confiscate money in people's bank accounts, calling it a "bail in".
> Gov't will always go where the money is.  Same reason people rob banks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a legitimate way to restructure a bank. Deposits are a liability of the bank. A bust bank has to restructure its liabilities. That can include deposits. Before FDIC, banks did that all the time in America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.  Before FDIC, banks that couldn't pay off their depositors closed their doors.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Banks that couldn't pay off their depositors _in full_ either were shut down, borrowed from other banks or called capital from their shareholders to meet their claims, or were sold.  If the bank was shut down, all liabilities were paid off based on the assets of a bank, just like any other bankrupt business.  Deposits are liabilities of the bank, and depositors have claims on the bank.  So when a bank was insolvent, the assets were liquidated and claims holders, including depositors, were paid back at less than par.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words, just what I said.
Click to expand...


My original post was correct.  You said it was wrong. Then I expanded on my original post. Now you say it is correct. 

Depositors are creditors of the bank. If the bank goes bust, depositors don't get their money back without FDIC insurance.  They get a haircut, aka a "bail-in."  That's how banking works, or is supposed to work.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Headlines the last couple days, "Greece in talks with Russia", "Russia, China and other nations form new world bank", "Greece could leave Nato".
> 
> As I said, all the bad players around the world are watching. A vacuum in politics is quickly filled and the Eurozone and Nato better get this figured out, there is a lot more at stake than an economy that is about the same size as Miami or Seattle.
> 
> Predatory lending is shifting the balance of economic power to nations we'd rather didn't have it.
> 
> You dimbos that want to compare Greece to lending your uncle money, you see the difference now?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a dumbass.
> Russia has no money.  They cant bail Greece out, much less keep them supplied with a flow of funds.  Check the Chinese stock markets today--total freefall.  They have their own problems.
> There was no predatory lending.  There was predatory borrowing.  And now the Greeks have been caught up in it.  Best thing for Europe is to flush those socialist turds down the toilet of history and let them figure it out for themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah yes, the naïve speak. You must be a supporter of Ronald The Socialist Raygun.
> 
> Prolonged exposure to con-talk-radio and Faux News will turn your mind to extremely mallable mush. Et tu Brute?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you cannot answer any of my points or defend your own views.
> This is typical.  You're a waste of bandwidth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, you are just one angry frother. You poor thing, you think you have coherence but you don't.
> 
> Conservatives don't understand economics, going all the way back to Raygun. They never have and never will.
Click to expand...

You are incapable of argumentation.  That is clear.  When challenged you deflect and call people names.  It is pitiful watching you try to defend socialism.  A real pretzel show.


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Headlines the last couple days, "Greece in talks with Russia", "Russia, China and other nations form new world bank", "Greece could leave Nato".
> 
> As I said, all the bad players around the world are watching. A vacuum in politics is quickly filled and the Eurozone and Nato better get this figured out, there is a lot more at stake than an economy that is about the same size as Miami or Seattle.
> 
> Predatory lending is shifting the balance of economic power to nations we'd rather didn't have it.
> 
> You dimbos that want to compare Greece to lending your uncle money, you see the difference now?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a dumbass.
> Russia has no money.  They cant bail Greece out, much less keep them supplied with a flow of funds.  Check the Chinese stock markets today--total freefall.  They have their own problems.
> There was no predatory lending.  There was predatory borrowing.  And now the Greeks have been caught up in it.  Best thing for Europe is to flush those socialist turds down the toilet of history and let them figure it out for themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah yes, the naïve speak. You must be a supporter of Ronald The Socialist Raygun.
> 
> Prolonged exposure to con-talk-radio and Faux News will turn your mind to extremely mallable mush. Et tu Brute?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you cannot answer any of my points or defend your own views.
> This is typical.  You're a waste of bandwidth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, you are just one angry frother. You poor thing, you think you have coherence but you don't.
> 
> Conservatives don't understand economics, going all the way back to Raygun. They never have and never will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are incapable of argumentation.  That is clear.  When challenged you deflect and call people names.  It is pitiful watching you try to defend socialism.  A real pretzel show.
Click to expand...


But...I like you.

LOL Relax Newman.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're a dumbass.
> Russia has no money.  They cant bail Greece out, much less keep them supplied with a flow of funds.  Check the Chinese stock markets today--total freefall.  They have their own problems.
> There was no predatory lending.  There was predatory borrowing.  And now the Greeks have been caught up in it.  Best thing for Europe is to flush those socialist turds down the toilet of history and let them figure it out for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes, the naïve speak. You must be a supporter of Ronald The Socialist Raygun.
> 
> Prolonged exposure to con-talk-radio and Faux News will turn your mind to extremely mallable mush. Et tu Brute?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you cannot answer any of my points or defend your own views.
> This is typical.  You're a waste of bandwidth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, you are just one angry frother. You poor thing, you think you have coherence but you don't.
> 
> Conservatives don't understand economics, going all the way back to Raygun. They never have and never will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are incapable of argumentation.  That is clear.  When challenged you deflect and call people names.  It is pitiful watching you try to defend socialism.  A real pretzel show.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But...I like you.
> 
> LOL Relax Newman.
Click to expand...

Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes, the naïve speak. You must be a supporter of Ronald The Socialist Raygun.
> 
> Prolonged exposure to con-talk-radio and Faux News will turn your mind to extremely mallable mush. Et tu Brute?
> 
> 
> 
> So you cannot answer any of my points or defend your own views.
> This is typical.  You're a waste of bandwidth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, you are just one angry frother. You poor thing, you think you have coherence but you don't.
> 
> Conservatives don't understand economics, going all the way back to Raygun. They never have and never will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are incapable of argumentation.  That is clear.  When challenged you deflect and call people names.  It is pitiful watching you try to defend socialism.  A real pretzel show.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But...I like you.
> 
> LOL Relax Newman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
> No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.
Click to expand...


How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you cannot answer any of my points or defend your own views.
> This is typical.  You're a waste of bandwidth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, you are just one angry frother. You poor thing, you think you have coherence but you don't.
> 
> Conservatives don't understand economics, going all the way back to Raygun. They never have and never will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are incapable of argumentation.  That is clear.  When challenged you deflect and call people names.  It is pitiful watching you try to defend socialism.  A real pretzel show.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But...I like you.
> 
> LOL Relax Newman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
> No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.
Click to expand...

Eat shit, asshole.
Greece is done.


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, you are just one angry frother. You poor thing, you think you have coherence but you don't.
> 
> Conservatives don't understand economics, going all the way back to Raygun. They never have and never will.
> 
> 
> 
> You are incapable of argumentation.  That is clear.  When challenged you deflect and call people names.  It is pitiful watching you try to defend socialism.  A real pretzel show.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But...I like you.
> 
> LOL Relax Newman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
> No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eat shit, asshole.
> Greece is done.
Click to expand...


Why do you hate Greece? They do make some good yogurt yeah. Or maybe you hate yogurt too and hope yogurt is done. LOL

Relax Newman. Go take a run down Forrest Gump boulevard, you'll feel better.


----------



## The Rabbi

IsaacNewton said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are incapable of argumentation.  That is clear.  When challenged you deflect and call people names.  It is pitiful watching you try to defend socialism.  A real pretzel show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But...I like you.
> 
> LOL Relax Newman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
> No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eat shit, asshole.
> Greece is done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you hate Greece? They do make some good yogurt yeah. Or maybe you hate yogurt too and hope yogurt is done. LOL
> 
> Relax Newman. Go take a run down Forrest Gump boulevard, you'll feel better.
Click to expand...

I hate socialist scumbags and the entitlement junkies who vote for them.  People like you.


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> But...I like you.
> 
> LOL Relax Newman.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
> No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eat shit, asshole.
> Greece is done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you hate Greece? They do make some good yogurt yeah. Or maybe you hate yogurt too and hope yogurt is done. LOL
> 
> Relax Newman. Go take a run down Forrest Gump boulevard, you'll feel better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hate socialist scumbags and the entitlement junkies who vote for them.  People like you.
Click to expand...


So you have a preloaded list of people that you hate?


----------



## montelatici

The Rabbi said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> But...I like you.
> 
> LOL Relax Newman.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
> No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eat shit, asshole.
> Greece is done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you hate Greece? They do make some good yogurt yeah. Or maybe you hate yogurt too and hope yogurt is done. LOL
> 
> Relax Newman. Go take a run down Forrest Gump boulevard, you'll feel better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hate socialist scumbags and the entitlement junkies who vote for them.  People like you.
Click to expand...


Norway does pretty well.  Even the conservatives there are socialists.


----------



## Vikrant

I think Greece should walk out of this Euro fiasco.


----------



## Synthaholic

Sun Devil 92 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funding the government isn't what got us to $17 trillion.
> 
> And don't expect me to explain it all to you.  That's been done enough, with factual links to back them up.
> 
> Use own damn Google to find out how much the unpaid-for tax cuts cost, the unpaid-for war in Iraq cost, the unpaid-for war in Afghanistan cost, the unpaid-for Medicare D cost, and the unpaid-for 2002 stimulus cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Gee all those were under Bush and when he left office the debt was $10T and now its $18T.  It's like Obama did nothing for 7 years!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Republicans forced austerity upon us, blocking and filibustering every revenue-producing bill.  Then, they forced sequestration upon us, and blocked Obama's efforts to force overseas money to come home and be taxed, which could be used to pay down the debt.  Republicans also are blocking the cancellation of military contracts for items that the military says they don't want or need.  That is money - 10s of billions - that could be used to pay down the debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think some references or links would be useful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Congress Pushes for Weapons Pentagon Didn t Want Military.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Now, can you provide the debt impact....do you have an article on that ?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I only hold my girl's hand.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
Click to expand...

Borrowed.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Obama passed a trillion dollar stimulus with lots of public works projects


It wasn't a trillion dollars, so there's your first lie.

There were no public works projects, so there's your second lie.

It's all you can do, apparently.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The money comes from the presses, that's where the money for infrastructure spending stimulus has always come from.  One of the reasons the Eurozone is in the mess it is in is because the Germans refused to allow the massive QE that the U.S. implemented in 2008 and that continued until a few months ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money doesnt come from presses.  Inflation comes from presses.
Click to expand...

Haven't you wingnuts been claiming impending runaway inflation since Obama was elected in 2008?

Do you ever tire of looking like fools?


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Greece is done.


Not even close.


----------



## The Rabbi

montelatici said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanlks for admitting you have broccoli in your socks and post what the voices in your head tell you.
> No, Greece is not getting aid from Russia or China.  They will be sinking to 3rd world status soon enough.  Good riddance.  A total revolution is their only hope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eat shit, asshole.
> Greece is done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you hate Greece? They do make some good yogurt yeah. Or maybe you hate yogurt too and hope yogurt is done. LOL
> 
> Relax Newman. Go take a run down Forrest Gump boulevard, you'll feel better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hate socialist scumbags and the entitlement junkies who vote for them.  People like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Norway does pretty well.  Even the conservatives there are socialists.
Click to expand...

Amazing what an expensive natural resource will do for a small country. Unfortunately they look due to run out of other people's money as well.
Oil Price Decline Forces Structural Change on Norway


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama passed a trillion dollar stimulus with lots of public works projects
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't a trillion dollars, so there's your first lie.
> 
> There were no public works projects, so there's your second lie.
> 
> It's all you can do, apparently.
Click to expand...

You are of course wrong on both counts.  As usual.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The money comes from the presses, that's where the money for infrastructure spending stimulus has always come from.  One of the reasons the Eurozone is in the mess it is in is because the Germans refused to allow the massive QE that the U.S. implemented in 2008 and that continued until a few months ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money doesnt come from presses.  Inflation comes from presses.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Haven't you wingnuts been claiming impending runaway inflation since Obama was elected in 2008?
> 
> Do you ever tire of looking like fools?
Click to expand...

Ask mom what her grocery bill is these days compared to 8 years ago and get back to us.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
Click to expand...

ROFLMAO!!!!! Sure.  They jsut need to keep spending money to avoid bankruptcy.


----------



## SAYIT

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
Click to expand...


Really? Do you see a bright future in your crystal ball for Greece because mine says they have seriously screwed the pooch and are on the big slide to 2nd (or 3rd) World status. I'm not blaming Syriza but I do blame Tsipras and Varoufakis for arrogantly alienating the very people they needed to save Greece and their unsustainable domestic economic model.


----------



## SAYIT

The Rabbi said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Eat shit, asshole.
> Greece is done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you hate Greece? They do make some good yogurt yeah. Or maybe you hate yogurt too and hope yogurt is done. LOL
> 
> Relax Newman. Go take a run down Forrest Gump boulevard, you'll feel better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hate socialist scumbags and the entitlement junkies who vote for them.  People like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Norway does pretty well.  Even the conservatives there are socialists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amazing what an expensive natural resource will do for a small country. Unfortunately they look due to run out of other people's money as well.
> Oil Price Decline Forces Structural Change on Norway
Click to expand...


I don't get the tendency of socialism's defenders to cherry-pick their very small successes - even if they are temporary and based on an anomaly like oil reserves - while ignoring the economic destruction and human suffering caused by socialist gov't policies. Most of the world's more strident collectivist countries have diminished or abandoned their socialist experiments because once they ran out of oil wealth or other peep's cash their economies became unsustainable. 
The idea that we must take care of each other - while a noble concept - just doesn't work. The fact that massive gov't confiscation of private wealth for the good of the "Worker's Paradise" can only be accomplished at gunpoint is most revealing.


----------



## SAYIT

The Rabbi said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ROFLMAO!!!!! Sure.  They jsut need to keep spending money to avoid bankruptcy.
Click to expand...


Which for at least the past 20 yrs has been Greece's grand economic plan ... to spend her way out of economic malaise using OPC (other peep's cash).


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Borrowed.
Click to expand...

How much? And how do you intend to pay it back?


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
Click to expand...

Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.


----------



## Andylusion

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
Click to expand...


No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow".... 

and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.


----------



## IsaacNewton

> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.



I really hate posting things more than once.

Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.

Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.

But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.

And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.

It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."


----------



## sealybobo

When we got robbed by


Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
Click to expand...

When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism


----------



## sealybobo

And I don't think explaining everything that happened since Reagan to George Bush's end of his term will do anything to prove anything to Republicans because they lived through it and denied it the entire time everything that was happening such dis honest Prix


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
Click to expand...


First off, that's not true.   There was tons of money, hidden in the books, that was not counted as part of TARP.

But even if it was true... that's exactly what the banks want you focus on.   Maybe.... MAYBE... this time we come out ahead.   Then the next time the banks make billions in bad bets, they'll say "well last time you made money.... so bail us out even more this time!"   Playing right into their hands.   Like they have their hand up your butt, making you talk.


----------



## SAYIT

IsaacNewton said:


> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate posting things more than once.
> 
> Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.
> 
> Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.
> 
> But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.
> 
> And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.
> 
> It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."
Click to expand...


Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.


----------



## Andylusion

sealybobo said:


> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
Click to expand...


You don't even understand that what you are saying is a logical impossibility.

You can't have government funding something, and it be "capitalism".    The MOMENT that government gives money to ANYTHING... it's not capitalism anymore.

Milton Friedman said over and over "Capitalism is a profit and loss system.  Profit encourages risk taking, and loss encourages prudence".     If you remove the loss......... by having government fund the loss...... it's not capitalism anymore.

Capitalism, isn't "force tax payers to pay for our business".   That view right there... is completely incompatible with Capitalism.   

Socialism, is government taxing the public, to pay for things.    Government taxed the public, to pay for a bailout.   What was the bailout?  Government buying assets.   I have yet to see any definition of "socialism" that doesn't include the concept of "government buying and/or controlling assets".   That's what it is.

To deny this means you are either at an extreme level of ignorance, or a complete level of intellectual dishonesty.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
Click to expand...


and they should walk away

but that would leave the taxpayers of Europe (and America since I believe we contribute to the IMF) on the hook because the scum bankers already bought the politicians who bailed them out.

What should happen is that every corrupt banker that facilitated the rt-leaning Greek governments hiding of debt should be thrown in jail and their assets confiscated for the benefit of the European taxpayers. Then the rt leaning greek politicians who ran up the debt should face the same actions.


----------



## Bleipriester

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever? 

A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.


----------



## sealybobo

SAYIT said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate posting things more than once.
> 
> Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.
> 
> Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.
> 
> But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.
> 
> And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.
> 
> It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
Click to expand...

I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives. 

I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.

They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.

The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame. 

We should have said oxi.


----------



## Steinlight

sealybobo said:


> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
Click to expand...

That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.


----------



## sealybobo

SAYIT said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate posting things more than once.
> 
> Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.
> 
> Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.
> 
> But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.
> 
> And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.
> 
> It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
Click to expand...

Show me one small business that was ever too big to fail. The bankers here in America lost and they should have taken their lumps but instead they had us bail them out in fact they had us give them a loan they drafted that we would have never given them had we had a choice. Funny you want us to play by the rules and greeks to play by the rules but not the bankers


----------



## sealybobo

Steinlight said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
Click to expand...

Bush and the capitalist Republicans deregulated Wall Street we all know that deregulated the mortgage industry we all know that send jobs overseas Dave corporations tax rates in the Rich tax rates yes what you're saying is all true but there's so much more to it so much more that led to our downfall


----------



## IsaacNewton

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First off, that's not true.   There was tons of money, hidden in the books, that was not counted as part of TARP.
> 
> But even if it was true... that's exactly what the banks want you focus on.   Maybe.... MAYBE... this time we come out ahead.   Then the next time the banks make billions in bad bets, they'll say "well last time you made money.... so bail us out even more this time!"   Playing right into their hands.   Like they have their hand up your butt, making you talk.
Click to expand...


Oh make no mistake, there should have been laws passed immediately that the entire executive board at any company that does these types of things in the future will be facing a minimum of 10 years in jail. And fined 75% of their net worth. And companies like AIG and other large entities should be broken apart like Bell Telephone was. No argument here.

China's stock market has tanked and lost 3 trillion dollars in the still ongoing crash. China told all the CEO's of the largest companies that they can't sell any of their stock for the next six months.

In the U.S. these types of rules are across the board opposed by the Republicans. And that is the problem.


----------



## Steinlight

sealybobo said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate posting things more than once.
> 
> Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.
> 
> Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.
> 
> But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.
> 
> And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.
> 
> It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
Click to expand...

Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.

If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.


----------



## Bleipriester

Steinlight said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
Click to expand...

Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.


----------



## sealybobo

Bleipriester said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever?
> 
> A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.
Click to expand...

That's right baby never give a Greek alone. Lol and by the way I'm Greek. But the Greeks will be fine Europeans will love to go to Greece because it'll be cheap when they go back to the drachma. And Russia and spend its vacation dollars in Greece. Australia America Canada. Many people will go to Greece especially when it goes back to being cheap. I went to Greece over 15 years ago when they had the drachma and my thousand dollars was worth 1300. Since the euro it would cost me more money to go to Greece so I haven't gone back. Greece will be fine


----------



## dcraelin

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.
> 
> The tax payers made money on the bailout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First off, that's not true.   There was tons of money, hidden in the books, that was not counted as part of TARP.
> 
> But even if it was true... that's exactly what the banks want you focus on.   Maybe.... MAYBE... this time we come out ahead.   Then the next time the banks make billions in bad bets, they'll say "well last time you made money.... so bail us out even more this time!"   Playing right into their hands.   Like they have their hand up your butt, making you talk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh make no mistake, there should have been laws passed immediately that the entire executive board at any company that does these types of things in the future will be facing a minimum of 10 years in jail. And fined 75% of their net worth. And companies like AIG and other large entities should be broken apart like Bell Telephone was. No argument here.
> 
> China's stock market has tanked and lost 3 trillion dollars in the still ongoing crash. China told all the CEO's of the largest companies that they can't sell any of their stock for the next six months.
> 
> In the U.S. these types of rules are across the board opposed by the Republicans. And that is the problem.
Click to expand...


And I read China is actually going after corruption big time.    During the TPA debate we kept hearing "we dont want China writing the rules"...while I think that's just a red-herring.....perhaps we DO want them writing the rules.


----------



## sealybobo

Steinlight said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate posting things more than once.
> 
> Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.
> 
> Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.
> 
> But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.
> 
> And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.
> 
> It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?


----------



## sealybobo

Bleipriester said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
Click to expand...

Yeah good point. It seems the bankers made  another bad alone. Now are they going to come back to us telling us they need another loan because they're too big to fail? Meanwhile they're sitting on mounds of our cash that we loaned them from before.

It seems they are picking us off one at a time. Sooner or later our cities are going to be "bankrupted" and they'll ask us to take painful cuts. Who will we complain to? The Greeks?


----------



## Bleipriester

sealybobo said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever?
> 
> A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's right baby never give a Greek alone. Lol and by the way I'm Greek. But the Greeks will be fine Europeans will love to go to Greece because it'll be cheap when they go back to the drachma. And Russia and spend its vacation dollars in Greece. Australia America Canada. Many people will go to Greece especially when it goes back to being cheap. I went to Greece over 15 years ago when they had the drachma and my thousand dollars was worth 1300. Since the euro it would cost me more money to go to Greece so I haven't gone back. Greece will be fine
Click to expand...

If you try to convert 0 Euro into drachma, how many drachma will you get? Greece´s soft socialism that was embedded into capitalism, doesn´t work anymore because the money is away and nobody is willing to give more.


----------



## Steinlight

sealybobo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bush and the capitalist Republicans deregulated Wall Street we all know that deregulated the mortgage industry we all know that send jobs overseas Dave corporations tax rates in the Rich tax rates yes what you're saying is all true but there's so much more to it so much more that led to our downfall
Click to expand...

Bush didn't deregulate the mortgage industry. Clinton repealed Glass Steagall(which he was right to do btw), but Glass Steagall had nothing to do with the financial collapse.

The main firms that collapsed were Lehman, Bear Sterns, and Merill Lynch, they were purely investment firms that weren't under Glass Steagall regulations. The bad debt of the financial crisis was caused by the inflationary monetary policy of the Fed.

Lower taxes don't push jobs overseas, and had nothing to do with the 08 crisis.


----------



## Steinlight

Bleipriester said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.
> 
> And told the banks to stick it?   The banks?    LOL
> 
> Dude the banks are fine.  Greece is who is screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes
> 
> The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss.  The IMF almost never takes a loss.
> 
> 18% is bonds.    That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions).   That's the public.
> 
> 3% is Greek banks.   So the public will eat that loss, if they default.
> 
> The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.
> 
> 1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.
> 
> 60%, is the Eurozone......    Whose that?   Tax payers.
> 
> So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults?    Tax payers.   Not the banks.  Not the wealthy.   Not the rich.   Not "cartels".    Not the 'multi-national corporations'.
> 
> It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU....   the pensioners and Unions.    That's who is screwed.
> 
> You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks.  You have blown off your own foot.
> 
> Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.
> 
> When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.
> 
> The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head.   Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
Click to expand...

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned central bank. No one is defending bankers, they made bad decisions, and shouldn't have been bailed out. But your stupid and narrow minded populism that allows for massive deficit spending like in Greece is just as bad. Democratic Socialism and Corporatism are both failed economic models.


----------



## Steinlight

sealybobo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate posting things more than once.
> 
> Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.
> 
> Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.
> 
> But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.
> 
> And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.
> 
> It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?
Click to expand...

Of course its a problem, but it had nothing to do with the financial crisis. 

The national debt is a problem, because if we continue with this increased spending, year after year, we could end up where Greece is down the road.


----------



## Bleipriester

Steinlight said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Federal Reserve is a privately owned central bank. No one is defending bankers, they made bad decisions, and shouldn't have been bailed out. But your stupid and narrow minded populism that allows for massive deficit spending like in Greece is just as bad. Democratic Socialism and Corporatism are both failed economic models.
Click to expand...

There is no proper solution for when it has happened. There must be proper solution for when it has not yet happened.


----------



## sealybobo

Bleipriester said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever?
> 
> A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's right baby never give a Greek alone. Lol and by the way I'm Greek. But the Greeks will be fine Europeans will love to go to Greece because it'll be cheap when they go back to the drachma. And Russia and spend its vacation dollars in Greece. Australia America Canada. Many people will go to Greece especially when it goes back to being cheap. I went to Greece over 15 years ago when they had the drachma and my thousand dollars was worth 1300. Since the euro it would cost me more money to go to Greece so I haven't gone back. Greece will be fine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you try to convert 0 Euro into drachma, how many drachma will you get? Greece´s soft socialism that was embedded into capitalism, doesn´t work anymore because the money is away and nobody is willing to give more.
Click to expand...

Greece doesn't manufacture anything. That was also a problem back in America 2007. There's just so much more to the story that you guys are leaving out but I digress


----------



## sealybobo

Steinlight said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate posting things more than once.
> 
> Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.
> 
> Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in  for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.
> 
> But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.
> 
> And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.
> 
> It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course its a problem, but it had nothing to do with the financial crisis.
> 
> The national debt is a problem, because if we continue with this increased spending, year after year, we could end up where Greece is down the road.
Click to expand...

Do you think we have a chance of solving the debt while cutting taxes on the rich? Then you should know it all adds up and it's all tied together


----------



## sealybobo

No leader in world history ever cut taxes on the rich while simultaneously starting two wars if you people think it wasn't on purpose your fools. They wanted to bankrupt America and they want to bankrupt greece so they can insist on their cuts and their bailouts for  themselves because they're too big to fail


----------



## Bleipriester

sealybobo said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever?
> 
> A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's right baby never give a Greek alone. Lol and by the way I'm Greek. But the Greeks will be fine Europeans will love to go to Greece because it'll be cheap when they go back to the drachma. And Russia and spend its vacation dollars in Greece. Australia America Canada. Many people will go to Greece especially when it goes back to being cheap. I went to Greece over 15 years ago when they had the drachma and my thousand dollars was worth 1300. Since the euro it would cost me more money to go to Greece so I haven't gone back. Greece will be fine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you try to convert 0 Euro into drachma, how many drachma will you get? Greece´s soft socialism that was embedded into capitalism, doesn´t work anymore because the money is away and nobody is willing to give more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece doesn't manufacture anything. That was also a problem back in America 2007. There's just so much more to the story that you guys are leaving out but I digress
Click to expand...

Greece had years to to avoid this and did nothing. If you want to see our future in Europe, look at Greece. For what will the Greeks vote when there is no money left to make a decision on? The Greeks should now continue their austerity agenda for their own sake.


----------



## sealybobo

Steinlight said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Federal Reserve is a privately owned central bank. No one is defending bankers, they made bad decisions, and shouldn't have been bailed out. But your stupid and narrow minded populism that allows for massive deficit spending like in Greece is just as bad. Democratic Socialism and Corporatism are both failed economic models.
Click to expand...


Deficit spending like we do on defense or pork projects? Remember pork? What ever happened to complaining about that? On fucking yea, the GOP control both houses. They love pork now. 

You also don't send all your manufacturing jobs overseas unless you're practicing disaster capitalism. All those workers were paying their mortgages and taxes.

Republicans arent just intellectually dishonest with us I believe they're just as dishonest with themselves. 

So much they don't get nor will they ever. They make the perfect sheep.


----------



## sealybobo

Bleipriester said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever?
> 
> A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's right baby never give a Greek alone. Lol and by the way I'm Greek. But the Greeks will be fine Europeans will love to go to Greece because it'll be cheap when they go back to the drachma. And Russia and spend its vacation dollars in Greece. Australia America Canada. Many people will go to Greece especially when it goes back to being cheap. I went to Greece over 15 years ago when they had the drachma and my thousand dollars was worth 1300. Since the euro it would cost me more money to go to Greece so I haven't gone back. Greece will be fine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you try to convert 0 Euro into drachma, how many drachma will you get? Greece´s soft socialism that was embedded into capitalism, doesn´t work anymore because the money is away and nobody is willing to give more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece doesn't manufacture anything. That was also a problem back in America 2007. There's just so much more to the story that you guys are leaving out but I digress
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece had years to to avoid this and did nothing. If you want to see our future in Europe, look at Greece. For what will the Greeks vote when there is no money left to make a decision on? The Greeks should now continue their austerity agenda for their own sake.
Click to expand...

They control important ports. Tax ships. And be nicer to tourists. I'm a Greek American and I think Greeks are assholes. Personally I think they deserve what they're going through the arrogant bastards but I also don't like what the rich and powerful are doing all across the globe I believe they did it in a couple of Middle Eastern countries I can't remember which now I remember the french people had to take cuts before Detroit. Now Puerto Rico and Greece. Who's next? They're picking us off one at a time.

So part of me is proud of Greece. Oxi!


----------



## Bleipriester

sealybobo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Federal Reserve is a privately owned central bank. No one is defending bankers, they made bad decisions, and shouldn't have been bailed out. But your stupid and narrow minded populism that allows for massive deficit spending like in Greece is just as bad. Democratic Socialism and Corporatism are both failed economic models.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Deficit spending like we do on defense or pork projects? Remember pork? What ever happened to complaining about that? On fucking yea, the GOP control both houses. They love pork now.
> 
> You also don't send all your manufacturing jobs overseas unless you're practicing disaster capitalism. All those workers were paying their mortgages and taxes.
> 
> Republicans arent just intellectually dishonest with us I believe they're just as dishonest with themselves.
> 
> So much they don't get nor will they ever. They make the perfect sheep.
Click to expand...

I agree but are the democrats better?


----------



## Bleipriester

sealybobo said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever?
> 
> A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right baby never give a Greek alone. Lol and by the way I'm Greek. But the Greeks will be fine Europeans will love to go to Greece because it'll be cheap when they go back to the drachma. And Russia and spend its vacation dollars in Greece. Australia America Canada. Many people will go to Greece especially when it goes back to being cheap. I went to Greece over 15 years ago when they had the drachma and my thousand dollars was worth 1300. Since the euro it would cost me more money to go to Greece so I haven't gone back. Greece will be fine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you try to convert 0 Euro into drachma, how many drachma will you get? Greece´s soft socialism that was embedded into capitalism, doesn´t work anymore because the money is away and nobody is willing to give more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece doesn't manufacture anything. That was also a problem back in America 2007. There's just so much more to the story that you guys are leaving out but I digress
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece had years to to avoid this and did nothing. If you want to see our future in Europe, look at Greece. For what will the Greeks vote when there is no money left to make a decision on? The Greeks should now continue their austerity agenda for their own sake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They control important ports. Tax ships. And be nicer to tourists. I'm a Greek American and I think Greeks are assholes. Personally I think they deserve what they're going through the arrogant bastards but I also don't like what the rich and powerful are doing all across the globe I believe they did it in a couple of Middle Eastern countries I can't remember which now I remember the french people had to take cuts before Detroit. Now Puerto Rico and Greece. Who's next? They're picking us off one at a time.
> 
> So part of me is proud of Greece. Oxi!
Click to expand...

Greece was not picked. It knowingly ran into bankruptcy and could get no more loans on the market.


----------



## Andylusion

sealybobo said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah good point. It seems the bankers made  another bad alone. Now are they going to come back to us telling us they need another loan because they're too big to fail? Meanwhile they're sitting on mounds of our cash that we loaned them from before.
> 
> It seems they are picking us off one at a time. Sooner or later our cities are going to be "bankrupted" and they'll ask us to take painful cuts. Who will we complain to? The Greeks?
Click to expand...


I don't understand any of this.

How do you blame banks, for government spending more money than they collect in taxes?

The private banks are not asking for a bailout.   Greece is asking for a bailout.


----------



## sealybobo

Bleipriester said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right baby never give a Greek alone. Lol and by the way I'm Greek. But the Greeks will be fine Europeans will love to go to Greece because it'll be cheap when they go back to the drachma. And Russia and spend its vacation dollars in Greece. Australia America Canada. Many people will go to Greece especially when it goes back to being cheap. I went to Greece over 15 years ago when they had the drachma and my thousand dollars was worth 1300. Since the euro it would cost me more money to go to Greece so I haven't gone back. Greece will be fine
> 
> 
> 
> If you try to convert 0 Euro into drachma, how many drachma will you get? Greece´s soft socialism that was embedded into capitalism, doesn´t work anymore because the money is away and nobody is willing to give more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece doesn't manufacture anything. That was also a problem back in America 2007. There's just so much more to the story that you guys are leaving out but I digress
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece had years to to avoid this and did nothing. If you want to see our future in Europe, look at Greece. For what will the Greeks vote when there is no money left to make a decision on? The Greeks should now continue their austerity agenda for their own sake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They control important ports. Tax ships. And be nicer to tourists. I'm a Greek American and I think Greeks are assholes. Personally I think they deserve what they're going through the arrogant bastards but I also don't like what the rich and powerful are doing all across the globe I believe they did it in a couple of Middle Eastern countries I can't remember which now I remember the french people had to take cuts before Detroit. Now Puerto Rico and Greece. Who's next? They're picking us off one at a time.
> 
> So part of me is proud of Greece. Oxi!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece was not picked. It knowingly ran into bankruptcy and could get no more loans on the market.
Click to expand...

In America some states pay more into the federal government than they receive in some states receive more than they pay in. I guess Greece will just be one of those states in Europe that takes more than they give. If they're like in America greece would be a red state.


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah good point. It seems the bankers made  another bad alone. Now are they going to come back to us telling us they need another loan because they're too big to fail? Meanwhile they're sitting on mounds of our cash that we loaned them from before.
> 
> It seems they are picking us off one at a time. Sooner or later our cities are going to be "bankrupted" and they'll ask us to take painful cuts. Who will we complain to? The Greeks?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't understand any of this.
> 
> How do you blame banks, for government spending more money than they collect in taxes?
> 
> The private banks are not asking for a bailout.   Greece is asking for a bailout.
Click to expand...

If you don't get it then vote na. I'm voting oxi


----------



## The Rabbi

sealybobo said:


> And I don't think explaining everything that happened since Reagan to George Bush's end of his term will do anything to prove anything to Republicans because they lived through it and denied it the entire time everything that was happening such dis honest Prix


Wow, it's like Bill Clinton was never president, and the Democrats never controlled either house of Congress.
Amazing.


----------



## sealybobo

The Rabbi said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't think explaining everything that happened since Reagan to George Bush's end of his term will do anything to prove anything to Republicans because they lived through it and denied it the entire time everything that was happening such dis honest Prix
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, it's like Bill Clinton was never president, and the Democrats never controlled either house of Congress.
> Amazing.
Click to expand...

Have the bankers that own the Federal Reserve are Jewish you're probably a cousin


----------



## sealybobo

We all know why Al Gore lost in 2000. Joe Lieberman


----------



## The Rabbi

sealybobo said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't think explaining everything that happened since Reagan to George Bush's end of his term will do anything to prove anything to Republicans because they lived through it and denied it the entire time everything that was happening such dis honest Prix
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, it's like Bill Clinton was never president, and the Democrats never controlled either house of Congress.
> Amazing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have the bankers that own the Federal Reserve are Jewish you're probably a cousin
Click to expand...

Are you smoking crack?


----------



## Steinlight

sealybobo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
> 
> 
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course its a problem, but it had nothing to do with the financial crisis.
> 
> The national debt is a problem, because if we continue with this increased spending, year after year, we could end up where Greece is down the road.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think we have a chance of solving the debt while cutting taxes on the rich? Then you should know it all adds up and it's all tied together
Click to expand...

The Bush tax cuts expired, you can't scapegoat them for the increasing debt anymore. Besides, you get into debt by spending money you don't have. If spending was on par with tax revenue(which is the highest it has ever been), there would be no deficit, and thus no growing debt. The problem is that government doesn't spend within its means, not that people have more of their own money. 

How much more do we need to squeeze out of "the rich" to fund this runaway government spending?


----------



## Steinlight

sealybobo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually I'm not the fool.  Not at all.   I was completely against the bailouts from the very start.   More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.
> 
> If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or.....  your world will end somehow"....
> 
> and you go.... "DUR!  Sure Sparky!  Here you go!"
> 
> Did I "rob" you?  Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?
> 
> Hint.... Gump.
> 
> We didn't get robbed.   Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.
> 
> Governments can't get "robbed".    You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then....  ok government got robbed.
> 
> Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed".   They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.
> 
> They are making a choice.  They WANT to borrow more money.   Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.
> 
> That's how life works.   You want to borrow money from me?   I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money.    "Well I don't want to do that!"  .... ok.... then you don't get the money.  "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!"  no, you are making a choice.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> 
> 
> When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Federal Reserve is a privately owned central bank. No one is defending bankers, they made bad decisions, and shouldn't have been bailed out. But your stupid and narrow minded populism that allows for massive deficit spending like in Greece is just as bad. Democratic Socialism and Corporatism are both failed economic models.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Deficit spending like we do on defense or pork projects? Remember pork? What ever happened to complaining about that? On fucking yea, the GOP control both houses. They love pork now.
> 
> You also don't send all your manufacturing jobs overseas unless you're practicing disaster capitalism. All those workers were paying their mortgages and taxes.
> 
> Republicans arent just intellectually dishonest with us I believe they're just as dishonest with themselves.
> 
> So much they don't get nor will they ever. They make the perfect sheep.
Click to expand...

No party has seriously cut spending. If you think Democrats will reign in waste in defense spending, you are in a fantasy world(Obama has signed all current defense spending into law, not the Republicans). You live in some fantasy world where Republicans slash social spending. When in reality, Bush massively expanded entitlements like Medicare Part D, don't hear any complaints from you guys there. 

You guys on the left don't care about the deficit at all. You just want more money from defense for your failed welfare state, not to cut spending overall. 

Tax cuts didn't cause manufacturing to go overseas, so again, you are all over the place.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama passed a trillion dollar stimulus with lots of public works projects
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't a trillion dollars, so there's your first lie.
> 
> There were no public works projects, so there's your second lie.
> 
> It's all you can do, apparently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are of course wrong on both counts.  As usual.
Click to expand...

You're a fucking liar. 

The approximate cost of the economic stimulus package was estimated to be $787 billion at the time of passage, later revised to $831 billion between 2009 and 2019.[1]​
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Borrowed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How much? And how do you intend to pay it back?
Click to expand...

Through the taxes raised from the workers who now have full-time jobs.  In the case of new roads, through tolls.  In the case of a new airport, fees on airlines and passengers.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.
Click to expand...

False.  Greece represents the failure of not having a working tax collection apparatus.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Borrowed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How much? And how do you intend to pay it back?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Through the taxes raised from the workers who now have full-time jobs.  In the case of new roads, through tolls.  In the case of a new airport, fees on airlines and passengers.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a terrible idea. All full time workers, regardless of pay? How much of a percentage increase, and how much will you spend on these government projects? You would essentially be taking money from middle class workers to fund these public works. Taking money from the very people you claim to defend by giving away to politically connected cronies and public unions. You can't grow an economy by taking money from one sector and putting it in another.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> False.  Greece represents the failure of not having a working tax collection apparatus.
Click to expand...

There is no money to collect, you can't even get to an ATM in Greece because the debt has sapped the country of its wealth. Even if they wanted to pay back their debts, they couldn't because they have spent themselves into oblivion. 

Inept social democratic policies will lead to the rise of Golden Dawn in Greece. As usual, like throughout history(if you look at Germany or Spain, inept far left governments like the Spainish Republic or the Weimar Republic lead to hardcore nationalism. The Left always cries about "fascism", but they breed the conditions for it.


----------



## Bleipriester

sealybobo said:


> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bleipriester said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you try to convert 0 Euro into drachma, how many drachma will you get? Greece´s soft socialism that was embedded into capitalism, doesn´t work anymore because the money is away and nobody is willing to give more.
> 
> 
> 
> Greece doesn't manufacture anything. That was also a problem back in America 2007. There's just so much more to the story that you guys are leaving out but I digress
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece had years to to avoid this and did nothing. If you want to see our future in Europe, look at Greece. For what will the Greeks vote when there is no money left to make a decision on? The Greeks should now continue their austerity agenda for their own sake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They control important ports. Tax ships. And be nicer to tourists. I'm a Greek American and I think Greeks are assholes. Personally I think they deserve what they're going through the arrogant bastards but I also don't like what the rich and powerful are doing all across the globe I believe they did it in a couple of Middle Eastern countries I can't remember which now I remember the french people had to take cuts before Detroit. Now Puerto Rico and Greece. Who's next? They're picking us off one at a time.
> 
> So part of me is proud of Greece. Oxi!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece was not picked. It knowingly ran into bankruptcy and could get no more loans on the market.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In America some states pay more into the federal government than they receive in some states receive more than they pay in. I guess Greece will just be one of those states in Europe that takes more than they give. If they're like in America greece would be a red state.
Click to expand...

This is how it is working in Europe but the EU budget is not more than a pocket money for the EU Commission.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama passed a trillion dollar stimulus with lots of public works projects
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't a trillion dollars, so there's your first lie.
> 
> There were no public works projects, so there's your second lie.
> 
> It's all you can do, apparently.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are of course wrong on both counts.  As usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're a fucking liar.
> 
> The approximate cost of the economic stimulus package was estimated to be $787 billion at the time of passage, later revised to $831 billion between 2009 and 2019.[1]​
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009
Click to expand...

A hundred billion here, a hundred billion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money.
The cost was well in excess of one trillion dollars.  Look at the underperformance of the economy, the gap between what the administration promised and what it delivered.  It's trillions.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Borrowed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How much? And how do you intend to pay it back?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Through the taxes raised from the workers who now have full-time jobs.  In the case of new roads, through tolls.  In the case of a new airport, fees on airlines and passengers.
Click to expand...

Yes taxing people already over taxed will lead to prosperity.
You can say this only because you've never worked a job in your life.


----------



## The Rabbi

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> False.  Greece represents the failure of not having a working tax collection apparatus.
Click to expand...

Yeah, go with that.
Total face plant fail.


----------



## Andylusion

sealybobo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
> Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
> As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.
> 
> 
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course its a problem, but it had nothing to do with the financial crisis.
> 
> The national debt is a problem, because if we continue with this increased spending, year after year, we could end up where Greece is down the road.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think we have a chance of solving the debt while cutting taxes on the rich? Then you should know it all adds up and it's all tied together
Click to expand...


First off, the tax cut was for everyone, not just the rich.  *I* got a tax cut from Bush.  So I'm happy about it.

Second, back in 2012, I had a net take home pay of only $12K for the entire year.   It was a huge drop in income.   Yet even during that year, I was able to pay DOWN some debt, and actually save money in the bank.

Now for some reason, this concept seems incomprehensible to leftist people.

You can pay down debt, and have a surplus, even while cutting taxes. 

It's called "Spending less than you make", or in governmental terms "Spending less than you collect in taxes".

Here's a fact, you can't argue with:  Tax Revenue doubled during the 80s, while taxes were cut to a mere fraction of what they were.

So, regardless of anything else, or 'whose at fault' or whatever, that's an established fact.

'blaw blaw blaw reagan blaw blaw tip o'neal blaw blaw democrats blaw blaw republicans' all that crap aside.... taxes were cut, and revenue doubled.

So why did we have a deficit?   Spending.   Now if you want blame reagan, fine, but the answer is still SPENDING.  SPENDING caused the deficit.  SPENDING caused the debt.  SPENDING was the problem.

And the source of the problem, is also the solution.  CUT spending.   That's it. 

Now the moment we get to this point, morons start screaming about the military.     If that's the game you want to play, fine, but understand that cutting the military is not a solution.

There were several years in which, if we had cut the military 100%, we would still have had a deficit.   The US budget deficit for this year, 2015 is projected to be $585 Billion dollars.   The US Department of Defense budget for this year, is only $610 Billion.

So unless your brilliant plan is to have a defense budget of only $25 Billion, cutting the military is not a solution.    Some of you pot smoking Colorado hippy rejects, need to just grow up a bit.  You might be able to shrink the defense budget by a few billions, but that's not a long term plan.  Grow up.

We need to cut entitlements, pure and simple.   No amount of tax hikes, is going to fix this.  Only spending cuts are going to fix it.  Period.


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> 
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course its a problem, but it had nothing to do with the financial crisis.
> 
> The national debt is a problem, because if we continue with this increased spending, year after year, we could end up where Greece is down the road.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think we have a chance of solving the debt while cutting taxes on the rich? Then you should know it all adds up and it's all tied together
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First off, the tax cut was for everyone, not just the rich.  *I* got a tax cut from Bush.  So I'm happy about it.
> 
> Second, back in 2012, I had a net take home pay of only $12K for the entire year.   It was a huge drop in income.   Yet even during that year, I was able to pay DOWN some debt, and actually save money in the bank.
> 
> Now for some reason, this concept seems incomprehensible to leftist people.
> 
> You can pay down debt, and have a surplus, even while cutting taxes.
> 
> It's called "Spending less than you make", or in governmental terms "Spending less than you collect in taxes".
> 
> Here's a fact, you can't argue with:  Tax Revenue doubled during the 80s, while taxes were cut to a mere fraction of what they were.
> 
> So, regardless of anything else, or 'whose at fault' or whatever, that's an established fact.
> 
> 'blaw blaw blaw reagan blaw blaw tip o'neal blaw blaw democrats blaw blaw republicans' all that crap aside.... taxes were cut, and revenue doubled.
> 
> So why did we have a deficit?   Spending.   Now if you want blame reagan, fine, but the answer is still SPENDING.  SPENDING caused the deficit.  SPENDING caused the debt.  SPENDING was the problem.
> 
> And the source of the problem, is also the solution.  CUT spending.   That's it.
> 
> Now the moment we get to this point, morons start screaming about the military.     If that's the game you want to play, fine, but understand that cutting the military is not a solution.
> 
> There were several years in which, if we had cut the military 100%, we would still have had a deficit.   The US budget deficit for this year, 2015 is projected to be $585 Billion dollars.   The US Department of Defense budget for this year, is only $610 Billion.
> 
> So unless your brilliant plan is to have a defense budget of only $25 Billion, cutting the military is not a solution.    Some of you pot smoking Colorado hippy rejects, need to just grow up a bit.  You might be able to shrink the defense budget by a few billions, but that's not a long term plan.  Grow up.
> 
> We need to cut entitlements, pure and simple.   No amount of tax hikes, is going to fix this.  Only spending cuts are going to fix it.  Period.
Click to expand...

I read a sentence in and realized I've had these arguments already. I burned out explaining to you guys. You win. I read not even half your fist sentence that's all it took was to hear you defending the Gw stimulus checks. Bye loser or liar. Doubt youre a liar.


----------



## sealybobo

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> 
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course its a problem, but it had nothing to do with the financial crisis.
> 
> The national debt is a problem, because if we continue with this increased spending, year after year, we could end up where Greece is down the road.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think we have a chance of solving the debt while cutting taxes on the rich? Then you should know it all adds up and it's all tied together
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First off, the tax cut was for everyone, not just the rich.  *I* got a tax cut from Bush.  So I'm happy about it.
> 
> Second, back in 2012, I had a net take home pay of only $12K for the entire year.   It was a huge drop in income.   Yet even during that year, I was able to pay DOWN some debt, and actually save money in the bank.
> 
> Now for some reason, this concept seems incomprehensible to leftist people.
> 
> You can pay down debt, and have a surplus, even while cutting taxes.
> 
> It's called "Spending less than you make", or in governmental terms "Spending less than you collect in taxes".
> 
> Here's a fact, you can't argue with:  Tax Revenue doubled during the 80s, while taxes were cut to a mere fraction of what they were.
> 
> So, regardless of anything else, or 'whose at fault' or whatever, that's an established fact.
> 
> 'blaw blaw blaw reagan blaw blaw tip o'neal blaw blaw democrats blaw blaw republicans' all that crap aside.... taxes were cut, and revenue doubled.
> 
> So why did we have a deficit?   Spending.   Now if you want blame reagan, fine, but the answer is still SPENDING.  SPENDING caused the deficit.  SPENDING caused the debt.  SPENDING was the problem.
> 
> And the source of the problem, is also the solution.  CUT spending.   That's it.
> 
> Now the moment we get to this point, morons start screaming about the military.     If that's the game you want to play, fine, but understand that cutting the military is not a solution.
> 
> There were several years in which, if we had cut the military 100%, we would still have had a deficit.   The US budget deficit for this year, 2015 is projected to be $585 Billion dollars.   The US Department of Defense budget for this year, is only $610 Billion.
> 
> So unless your brilliant plan is to have a defense budget of only $25 Billion, cutting the military is not a solution.    Some of you pot smoking Colorado hippy rejects, need to just grow up a bit.  You might be able to shrink the defense budget by a few billions, but that's not a long term plan.  Grow up.
> 
> We need to cut entitlements, pure and simple.   No amount of tax hikes, is going to fix this.  Only spending cuts are going to fix it.  Period.
Click to expand...

I'll give you this I agree Americans are horrible at saving but I'm not and it doesn't sound like you are either good man


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.
> 
> I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.
> 
> They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.
> 
> The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.
> 
> We should have said oxi.
> 
> 
> 
> Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.
> 
> If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that American national debt is not a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course its a problem, but it had nothing to do with the financial crisis.
> 
> The national debt is a problem, because if we continue with this increased spending, year after year, we could end up where Greece is down the road.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think we have a chance of solving the debt while cutting taxes on the rich? Then you should know it all adds up and it's all tied together
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First off, the tax cut was for everyone, not just the rich.  *I* got a tax cut from Bush.  So I'm happy about it.
> 
> Second, back in 2012, I had a net take home pay of only $12K for the entire year.   It was a huge drop in income.   Yet even during that year, I was able to pay DOWN some debt, and actually save money in the bank.
> 
> Now for some reason, this concept seems incomprehensible to leftist people.
> 
> You can pay down debt, and have a surplus, even while cutting taxes.
> 
> It's called "Spending less than you make", or in governmental terms "Spending less than you collect in taxes".
> 
> Here's a fact, you can't argue with:  Tax Revenue doubled during the 80s, while taxes were cut to a mere fraction of what they were.
> 
> So, regardless of anything else, or 'whose at fault' or whatever, that's an established fact.
> 
> 'blaw blaw blaw reagan blaw blaw tip o'neal blaw blaw democrats blaw blaw republicans' all that crap aside.... taxes were cut, and revenue doubled.
> 
> So why did we have a deficit?   Spending.   Now if you want blame reagan, fine, but the answer is still SPENDING.  SPENDING caused the deficit.  SPENDING caused the debt.  SPENDING was the problem.
> 
> And the source of the problem, is also the solution.  CUT spending.   That's it.
> 
> Now the moment we get to this point, morons start screaming about the military.     If that's the game you want to play, fine, but understand that cutting the military is not a solution.
> 
> There were several years in which, if we had cut the military 100%, we would still have had a deficit.   The US budget deficit for this year, 2015 is projected to be $585 Billion dollars.   The US Department of Defense budget for this year, is only $610 Billion.
> 
> So unless your brilliant plan is to have a defense budget of only $25 Billion, cutting the military is not a solution.    Some of you pot smoking Colorado hippy rejects, need to just grow up a bit.  You might be able to shrink the defense budget by a few billions, but that's not a long term plan.  Grow up.
> 
> We need to cut entitlements, pure and simple.   No amount of tax hikes, is going to fix this.  Only spending cuts are going to fix it.  Period.
Click to expand...


when you have all that borrowed money sloshing around in the economy tax revenue is bound to rise....did it double?....I dont think your right there.   entitlements need to be means-tested 

so because the military doesnt cover all the deficit you say we cant cut it?...cut it and cut it sharply...and cut salaries.....and pensions.....the way the military is portraying it now they talk of cutting rank and file....some is needed no doubt but cutting bloated pentagon salaries is needed also. 

also needed is to raise taxes to a more historically sustainable level....especially on the wealthy....Eisenhower had a top marginal tax rate of 91%.....back to it.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You get out of debt by making more money.  The country will make more money by expanding the tax base.  You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.
> 
> We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Borrowed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How much? And how do you intend to pay it back?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Through the taxes raised from the workers who now have full-time jobs.  In the case of new roads, through tolls.  In the case of a new airport, fees on airlines and passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds like a terrible idea. All full time workers, regardless of pay? How much of a percentage increase, and how much will you spend on these government projects? You would essentially be taking money from middle class workers to fund these public works. Taking money from the very people you claim to defend by giving away to politically connected cronies and public unions. You can't grow an economy by taking money from one sector and putting it in another.
Click to expand...

It's not taking money from middle class workers.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> There is no money to collect, you can't even get to an ATM in Greece because the debt has sapped the country of its wealth.


You make it sound like no one has any money, no one has a job, no one is getting a paycheck.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> A hundred billion here, a hundred billion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money.
> The cost was well in excess of one trillion dollars.


I already proved that's a lie, yet here you are...


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Yes taxing people already over taxed will lead to prosperity.


Who is overtaxed?  The Greek people?


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> False.  Greece represents the failure of not having a working tax collection apparatus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, go with that.
> Total face plant fail.
Click to expand...

If you read anything other than Brietbart and WorldNutDaily you might know a few things.


----------



## Synthaholic

The Rabbi said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is done.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> False.  Greece represents the failure of not having a working tax collection apparatus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, go with that.
> Total face plant fail.
Click to expand...

I post these because it's just so easy and so much fun exposing you for the fool that you are:

This is the real reason Greece has a massive tax-evasion problem - Business Insider

6 in 10 Greeks don t pay income taxes - CNN.com

Greece struggles to address its tax evasion problem World news The Guardian

Greece Struggles to Get Citizens to Pay Their Taxes - WSJ

No go back and read what you just ignorantly responded to, fool.


----------



## montelatici

The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!

The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.  

Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.


----------



## Andylusion

montelatici said:


> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.



You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.

The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.

Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.

With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.

But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?

This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
*
Back to Greece.*

If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.

78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable. 
The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
*
Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*

Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.

They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.

Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.

The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.

The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.

Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.

*Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*


----------



## Toro

Andylusion said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
Click to expand...


It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities. 

Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
Click to expand...


The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.

and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.


----------



## Andylusion

Toro said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities.
> 
> Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.
Click to expand...


No, you are incorrect.

Why has Germany taken so long to pay off its WWI debt - BBC News

Germany is finally paying off World War I reparations, with the last 70 million euro (£60m) payment drawing the debt to a close.​
Again, they paid back every last penny of those debts.

The only debts they didn't pay off, were privately held debts.   Germany has been paying back those debts for decades now.

I stand by my original statement.  Greece literally, can not avoid those debts.  They *WILL* pay them back, in full, now or later.

The only question is, how much damage will they cause their own economy, in delaying the payback.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
Click to expand...


Yes and no.

Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.

It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.

But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.

The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".


----------



## Toro

Andylusion said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities.
> 
> Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, you are incorrect.
> 
> Why has Germany taken so long to pay off its WWI debt - BBC News
> 
> Germany is finally paying off World War I reparations, with the last 70 million euro (£60m) payment drawing the debt to a close.​
> Again, they paid back every last penny of those debts.
> 
> The only debts they didn't pay off, were privately held debts.   Germany has been paying back those debts for decades now.
> 
> I stand by my original statement.  Greece literally, can not avoid those debts.  They *WILL* pay them back, in full, now or later.
> 
> The only question is, how much damage will they cause their own economy, in delaying the payback.
Click to expand...


I said that Germany *defaulted* on their debt. A default is when principle or interest payments are not made on time.  That's exactly what happened with Germany.  Not only that, but the original reparations were $269 billion gold marks, which was later negotiated down to $112 billion 10 years later, a haircut of nearly 60%.

Legacy of Versailles Germany Closes Book on World War I With Final Reparations Payment - SPIEGEL ONLINE

I don't know if Greece will pay back its debt, though I highly doubt it.  But there is nothing in law or convention that requires a government to be paid back debt simply because it is held by the government.


----------



## Andylusion

Toro said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if the debt is owed to governments. Germany defaulted on its WWI reparations to the Allies, which was debt to governments. The Greek debt was originally to private interests that mostly have been transferred to government entities.
> 
> Montelatici is correct. Ultimately, Greece needs to default, leave the eurozone (but not the EU), reintroduce the drachma, and restructure its debts. Because unless Germany wants to perpetually subsidize Greece, or Greece becomes like Germany, there is no other way. Greece wants to stay in the eurozone but they can't without constant subsidization.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, you are incorrect.
> 
> Why has Germany taken so long to pay off its WWI debt - BBC News
> 
> Germany is finally paying off World War I reparations, with the last 70 million euro (£60m) payment drawing the debt to a close.​
> Again, they paid back every last penny of those debts.
> 
> The only debts they didn't pay off, were privately held debts.   Germany has been paying back those debts for decades now.
> 
> I stand by my original statement.  Greece literally, can not avoid those debts.  They *WILL* pay them back, in full, now or later.
> 
> The only question is, how much damage will they cause their own economy, in delaying the payback.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I said that Germany *defaulted* on their debt. A default is when principle or interest payments are not made on time.  That's exactly what happened with Germany.  Not only that, but the original reparations were $269 billion gold marks, which was later negotiated down to $112 billion 10 years later, a haircut of nearly 60%.
> 
> Legacy of Versailles Germany Closes Book on World War I With Final Reparations Payment - SPIEGEL ONLINE
> 
> I don't know if Greece will pay back its debt, though I highly doubt it.  But there is nothing in law or convention that requires a government to be paid back debt simply because it is held by the government.
Click to expand...


Oh ok... alright.    Too many people assume "default" means that they simply don't pay their debts.  I erroneously assumed you were using that definition.

Yes, Germany failed to pay on time.   Greece has already done that back in 2010.   Technically speaking Greece has been in default for 5 years already.

Yes, I would also agree that there is nothing in law or convention that requires a government to pay back to other governments.
Agreed.  That is correct.

But the problem again, is that the only way you get someone you owe money to, to take the hair cut, is by having a higher authority involved.

Take Argentina for example, which owed billions in bonds to various investors.   What did they do, to get the investors to take a hair cut?

They met with them in the US, with a US government arbiter.   The investors met under the authority and arbitration of the US government, with the Argentine government.

Now if the debt was with the US government.....  who is going to arbitrate that?    Who is going to "put the screws on" the US government to compromise?    No one.   There is no higher authority.  There there is no one to put pressure on the EU, or the ECB, or the IMF, to try and force them to take a hair cut.

Now it is theoretically possible that the citizens of the respective countries affected, could push their own government to compromise.... but what possible motivation would they have?

*"Yes, please give Greece debt forgiveness of the billions of Euros we loaned them, so that we can jack up our tax rates to pay for even more loans to Greece that they will ask for debt forgiveness on later..........."*

Who is going to want that?


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
Click to expand...


My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....

It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.

Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.

No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
Click to expand...


The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.

The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.

For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.

Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?

Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?

And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.  




This is Greece.   Empty shelves.

Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ

Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....

But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....

The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.

As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.

Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.

Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.


----------



## SAYIT

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
Click to expand...


Argentina is not a great comparable because unlike Greece, they have natural resources. The austerity rejected by Greeks will, as you noted, still be imposed but the imposer will be the Greek gov't and market forces and the international debts on which they have and will continue to default (big payments are due this summer) will not just go away. Someday they will want back into the global economy and only hard currency (euros, dollars) will buy their re-entry.


----------



## Toro

dcraelin said:


> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....



Your understanding would be incorrect.


----------



## Synthaholic

SAYIT said:


> Argentina is not a great comparable because unlike Greece, they have natural resources.


I'm actually partial to Greek natural resources:


----------



## SAYIT

Synthaholic said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Argentina is not a great comparable because unlike Greece, they have natural resources.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually partial to Greek natural resources:
Click to expand...


Yeah, dat's some fine resources but unless they or you have about $90bil to provide for Greece's party, it's over.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
Click to expand...


first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price.   The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.

Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.

Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.

I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way.      But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.  

The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.


----------



## dcraelin

Toro said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding would be incorrect.
Click to expand...


when Greece, Ireland and Iceland first started having problems I am pretty sure I saw comparisons to Argentina and how good they were dong after defaulting. 

I also believe Iceland, presumably with less natural resources and a smaller economy that greece at least partially defaulted and is doing pretty good.


----------



## sealybobo

montelatici said:


> The problem is that Greece, not matter how much they are squeezed can't pay back what they have borrowed.  Unless the creditors are prepared to forgive a large percentage of the Greek debt, they will be back in a year or two doing the same thing and the taxpayers of the other countries of the Eurozone will have to fork out money again.  Money that is used to pay the creditors, not the Greeks!
> 
> The only solution is for Greece to default (in essence declare bankruptcy) and start from zero debt with their own currency.
> 
> Germany has done this 7 times since 1800 and it has worked out well for them.  With Spain and Austria, Germany is the pathological defaulter of Europe.


Couldn't you say the exact same thing about the American debt?


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?
> 
> 
> 
> Borrowed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How much? And how do you intend to pay it back?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Through the taxes raised from the workers who now have full-time jobs.  In the case of new roads, through tolls.  In the case of a new airport, fees on airlines and passengers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds like a terrible idea. All full time workers, regardless of pay? How much of a percentage increase, and how much will you spend on these government projects? You would essentially be taking money from middle class workers to fund these public works. Taking money from the very people you claim to defend by giving away to politically connected cronies and public unions. You can't grow an economy by taking money from one sector and putting it in another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not taking money from middle class workers.
Click to expand...

Yes it is, you said raise taxes on full time workers. That is the middle class. The Middle Class isn't comprised of part time workers. Why should the middle class have to pay for your run away spending?


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no money to collect, you can't even get to an ATM in Greece because the debt has sapped the country of its wealth.
> 
> 
> 
> You make it sound like no one has any money, no one has a job, no one is getting a paycheck.
Click to expand...

25% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment, and you can't withdraw money due to bank holidays. This is the product of Democratic socialism. The society is bankrupt and can't mathematically pay back the debt they created through this massive spending(primarily through the pensions of government union workers).


----------



## Andylusion

SAYIT said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Argentina is not a great comparable because unlike Greece, they have natural resources. The austerity rejected by Greeks will, as you noted, still be imposed but the imposer will be the Greek gov't and market forces and the international debts on which they have and will continue to default (big payments are due this summer) will not just go away. Someday they will want back into the global economy and only hard currency (euros, dollars) will buy their re-entry.
Click to expand...


Agreed.  Argentina happen to default last time, in the middle of a commodity boom.  Lucky them, they had natural resources.

But regardless, choosing to default has still wreaked havoc on their economy.

Greece can only postpone the crash if they leave the Euro.   Right now they are screwed because they have no ability to get money to keep what is left of their government operating.   That's why public banks have been closed.

If they ditch the Euro and start printing out Drachma.... they can hand out all the money they want....  of course in the long run, the hyper inflation of a worthless currency will have the Zimbabwe effect.

And you are exactly right.  Greeks are under the illusion that the EU needs them as much as they need the EU.  Not true.   They need the EU, and the EU could do just as well without them at all.


----------



## Toro

Greece capitulated. They have chosen to stay in the euro.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing something important.  Greece does not have the ability to default.   Not in the way Germany did, or any other country that has defaulted.
> 
> The German defaults were on bonds owed to private companies and individuals.    The Greeks owe governments money.
> 
> Forgive me for this poor analogy.   It's similar to the difference of having a bank loan, or private loan of some sort, and having a Federally Insured student loan.
> 
> With the private loan, you can make the choice to default, and intentionally force your creditors to restructure the debt.  That's what "strategic default" is all about.   And the reason why you can do this, is because there is an authority above the creditors, namely the Government, which will arbitrate between you and the creditors.
> 
> But what if the creditor *IS* the arbiter?   What if the there is no authority over your creditor?  Who arbitrates between you and the government, when there is no higher authority government?
> 
> This is why you pay back 100% of a Federally Insured student loan.   You will either pay back every penny with interest, that you borrowed under a Federal Guarantee, or you will carry that debt until you die.
> *
> Back to Greece.*
> 
> If you look at the chart on page 1 of this thread, only about 22% (roughly) of Greece's debt, is owed to private institutions, the majority of which is owed to public within Greece.   Defaulting on pensioners and unions, and voting citizens would be horrific politically, but worse, it wouldn't solve the problem.
> 
> 78% of Greece's debt is to other GOVERNMENTs.    It's not bankruptable.
> The IMF is not bankruptable.   The ECB is not bankruptable.   The Eurozone is not bankruptable.
> *
> Greece has absolutely no way of forcing the IMF, ECB, or the EU, or any of it's governmental creditors to take a hair cut on their debt.   Not even if they ditch the Euro, and start over with their own currency.*
> 
> Starting over with the Drachma again, doesn't make the debts they owe any less.  They would still owe everyone billions of Euros of debt.
> 
> They would still owe everyone, everything they currently do, but the economic consequences would be horrendous.
> 
> Tariffs on exported and imported goods.  Cost of living would drastically increase throughout Greece, as retail prices jumped by at least 1/3rd, if not more.
> 
> The drachma would drop in value like a rock.   Investments would leave the country, as would jobs.
> 
> The economic crash in Greece after being forced out of the EU, would make the economic recession they have dealt with up till now, look like a bad hair day.
> 
> Ditching the Euro, and leaving the EU, would simply make paying back the debt even more difficult, because they would have to purchase Euros, to pay back the debt owed in Euros, with Drachma.... which would fall in value you like a rock.
> 
> *Honestly, it's hard to imagine what possible bright side would result from this course of action.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price.   The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.
> 
> Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.
> 
> Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.
> 
> I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way.      But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.
> 
> The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.
Click to expand...


Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.

What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission

Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.

If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.

Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.

The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.

Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.

And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.

There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.

If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.

The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.

The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.


----------



## SAYIT

Toro said:


> Greece capitulated. They have chosen to stay in the euro.



Remarkably, the deal is far more draconian than the terms Greece had been rejecting _for months_. Greeks have so depleted their well of integrity that foreign entities must be involved in the sale and dispersal of gov't assets and the passage of laws. In many ways it's a trusteeship with the gov't abdicating much of its authority to foreign bankers. Even with all that I still don't trust the situation and the Grexit still looms large on the horizon.


----------



## SAYIT

*Greece tells banking cartel to STICK IT!*



IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat...
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice...



Uh-huh, and today after years of failing to honor financial terms and months of strutting and preening (and yet untallied self-imposed damage to Greece's economy and her people) she lifted her skirt, bent over and asked those international banks to please "STICK IT" here.
Socialists are like children ... they think all they must do is have a referendum and their problems are solved. Children.


----------



## SAYIT

CrusaderFrank said:


> Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!



And one week after their proud, defiant referendum they awoke with a world-classs hangover (complete with severe austerity) that may well last decades. Stupid ... just STUPID.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> The countries could of course keep the debt on their books as you say, ...but Greece doesnt have to pay it either.
> 
> and the low value of the drachma would pump up one of Greece's main industries ....tourism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price.   The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.
> 
> Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.
> 
> Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.
> 
> I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way.      But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.
> 
> The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.
> 
> What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission
> 
> Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
> The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.
> 
> If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.
> 
> Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.
> 
> The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.
> 
> Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.
> 
> And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.
> 
> If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.
> 
> The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.
> 
> The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.
Click to expand...


 In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.  

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.    

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.


----------



## Vigilante




----------



## bendog

I don't think we can tell if it's a good deal or a bad deal or, more importantly, if it actually accomplishes anything good.  On the face of it, I'd say it does nothing to actually cure the Greek problem.

Possible scenarios for Greece Econbrowser

"It’s very clear that two things have to happen from here. First, Greece needs relief from its mountain of debt, and second, the country needs to find a way to become more competitive economically.

The traditional way these goals would be achieved is first, creditors would accept substantial haircuts and restructuring of the outstanding debt, and second, a big currency depreciation would give Greek exports a competitive international advantage to get the economy growing again without new borrowing.

The main complication preventing these steps in the current situation is Greece’s participation in the euro system. On the first issue, this meant that European governments, banks and the ECB extended substantial loans on the (mis)understanding that Greece’s membership in the European union meant default was impossible. On the second issue, devaluation would seem not to be an option because Greece does not have control over the value of its currency."
................

On the face if it, simply raising taxes and cutting pensions not only does nothing, but in terms of how monetarists view ending recessions, it's typical Merkel azz-backwards.  But then there were these quotes.

Greece Submits Reform Proposals To European Creditors

"Many of the proposed reforms were harsher than those roundly rejected by the Greek public in a bailout referendum last Sunday. But the government said, in return, it "would seek a commitment from creditors to negotiate ... further measures to restructure the long-term debt

"Earlier Thursday, Donald Tusk of Poland, who chairs the EU summits, indicated that European officials would make an effort to address Greece's key request for debt relief.

"The realistic proposal from Greece will have to be matched by an equally realistic proposal on debt sustainability from the creditors. Only then will we have a win-win situation," Tusk said."
...................
So, if Europe is finally accepting the fact that there has to be a "haircut," maybe that's a forward step.  But, there's still the Euro problem.  Basically, the "Greek euro" has to be worth less than a "EU euro."  That's the only way to get Greek exports cheaper for trading partners, and the only way to get "EU euros" to visit Greece and buy stuff. 

The normal way to approach a debacle like Greece has is:  a.  a haircut, b. some kind of currency devaluation and c. a commitment to not just cut govt spending but more importantly to continually hold debt growth at less a % of gnp and gnp growth. 

We may have a and c, but I'm not sure about b.


----------



## SAYIT

bendog said:


> ...Basically, the "Greek euro" has to be worth less than a "EU euro."  That's the only way to get Greek exports cheaper for trading partners, and the only way to get "EU euros" to visit Greece and buy stuff....



Not so. Domestic policies (gov't regs, taxes) that add to the costs of production must be scaled back to allow Greeks to produce more cheaply. VOILA!


----------



## theHawk

SAYIT said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece needs to keep funding the fakes and phonies who are drawing the public trough, they are dependable Socialist voters!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one week after their proud, defiant referendum they awoke with a world-classs hangover (complete with severe austerity) that may well last decades. Stupid ... just STUPID.
Click to expand...

They were the ones that chose to spend 170% of their GDP at times.
That was just stupid.


----------



## bendog

SAYIT said:


> bendog said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Basically, the "Greek euro" has to be worth less than a "EU euro."  That's the only way to get Greek exports cheaper for trading partners, and the only way to get "EU euros" to visit Greece and buy stuff....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. Domestic policies (gov't regs, taxes) that add to the costs of production must be scaled back to allow Greeks to produce more cheaply. VOILA![/QUO\\
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Greece undoubtedly is years from being a market economy, but regardless of reforms, it will never compete in terms of real export markets with Germany ... or even France.  It does have agricultural and fishery supplies.  But, it's basic economics that if a country can't pay its debt, it has to default and devalue.  Something that is better avoided by not having the debt in the first place


----------



## dcraelin

here is a good article on outlining the least of what should happen to Goldman Sachs for facilitating the hiding of Greek debt.

 Goldman Sachs could face lawsuit for helping hide Greek debt - report RT Business


----------



## Bleipriester

Greece is going to receive more billions from ESM. But they have to make reforms now.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> *Yes it is, you said raise taxes on full time workers*. That is the middle class. The Middle Class isn't comprised of part time workers. Why should the middle class have to pay for your run away spending?


Another wingnut with reading comprehension issues.

I didn't say raise taxes on workers, I said put people to work so that you can then collect income taxes from them.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> 25% unemployment


Uh...that means 75% employment.


----------



## Synthaholic

Andylusion said:


> If they ditch the Euro and start printing out Drachma.... they can hand out all the money they want.... of course in the long run, the hyper inflation of a worthless currency will have the Zimbabwe effect.


When I spent time in Türkiye in the early 1990s they also had hyper inflation.  They came out of it fine.


----------



## montelatici

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of madness.  More austerity will result in continued economic recession (depression)  and regardless of reforms Greece will owe more than than it does today.  This is only a ploy to continue paying the creditors at the expense of European taxpayers.

Until the Greek debt is forgiven either by the ECB et al, or the Greeks by defaulting and returning to a national currency, will there be a solution.  The Greeks cannot pay the interest due on their debt, much less the principle.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes it is, you said raise taxes on full time workers*. That is the middle class. The Middle Class isn't comprised of part time workers. Why should the middle class have to pay for your run away spending?
> 
> 
> 
> Another wingnut with reading comprehension issues.
> 
> I didn't say raise taxes on workers, I said put people to work so that you can then collect income taxes from them.
Click to expand...

No, you are just an idiot that keep your incoherent and dumb worldview straight.



Synthaholic said:


> Through the taxes raised from the workers who now have full-time jobs.  In the case of new roads, through tolls.  In the case of a new airport, fees on airlines and passengers.



But please, tell us more how all full time workers should pay more taxes to pay for your cradle to grave welfare state  .


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 25% unemployment
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...that means 75% employment.
Click to expand...

That means depression.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Greece can't directly be forced to pay back the debts, no.   But, Argentina keeps trying to avoid paying it's debts, and every single time they refuse to pay, their interest rates jack up, and currency values drop, and the country goes into recession.   Just look at their economic history, it's a roller-coaster of crash rise crash rise.     If that's what you are willing to deal with, to avoid paying the debts you owe... fine... but just understand, you will reap the consequences of actions.
> 
> It would pump up tourism.... in theory.  Yes.    Because the Drachma would drop in value you like a rock, and that would allow Europeans to exchange 1 Euro for 10 Drachma (or other massive exchange rate), and then renting a room for 100 Euros today, would cost 100 Drachma, which after exchange would be 10 Euro.
> 
> But here's the problem.... The wages for the staff at the Hotel would be in Drachma.   So while the business might be booming, the employees would actually be taking a pay cut.    If they are earning 10 Euros an hour before, now they're earning 10 Drachma an hour, and it costs them twice as much to buy food, fuel, clothing and goods.
> 
> The rest of the industry in Greece would be wiped out though.   If I make tires in Greece, and now it costs me twice as much to buy material to run my business, not to mention import and export duties, and then on top of that, all other countries are putting custom duties and tariffs on my products I'm trying to sell....  cost of doing business goes up, purchases of my products goes down.... that's called "fail".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price.   The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.
> 
> Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.
> 
> Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.
> 
> I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way.      But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.
> 
> The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.
> 
> What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission
> 
> Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
> The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.
> 
> If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.
> 
> Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.
> 
> The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.
> 
> Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.
> 
> And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.
> 
> If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.
> 
> The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.
> 
> The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
Click to expand...


No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.


----------



## Andylusion

bendog said:


> I don't think we can tell if it's a good deal or a bad deal or, more importantly, if it actually accomplishes anything good.  On the face of it, I'd say it does nothing to actually cure the Greek problem.
> 
> Possible scenarios for Greece Econbrowser
> 
> "It’s very clear that two things have to happen from here. First, Greece needs relief from its mountain of debt, and second, the country needs to find a way to become more competitive economically.
> 
> The traditional way these goals would be achieved is first, creditors would accept substantial haircuts and restructuring of the outstanding debt, and second, a big currency depreciation would give Greek exports a competitive international advantage to get the economy growing again without new borrowing.
> 
> The main complication preventing these steps in the current situation is Greece’s participation in the euro system. On the first issue, this meant that European governments, banks and the ECB extended substantial loans on the (mis)understanding that Greece’s membership in the European union meant default was impossible. On the second issue, devaluation would seem not to be an option because Greece does not have control over the value of its currency."
> ................
> 
> On the face if it, simply raising taxes and cutting pensions not only does nothing, but in terms of how monetarists view ending recessions, it's typical Merkel azz-backwards.  But then there were these quotes.
> 
> Greece Submits Reform Proposals To European Creditors
> 
> "Many of the proposed reforms were harsher than those roundly rejected by the Greek public in a bailout referendum last Sunday. But the government said, in return, it "would seek a commitment from creditors to negotiate ... further measures to restructure the long-term debt
> 
> "Earlier Thursday, Donald Tusk of Poland, who chairs the EU summits, indicated that European officials would make an effort to address Greece's key request for debt relief.
> 
> "The realistic proposal from Greece will have to be matched by an equally realistic proposal on debt sustainability from the creditors. Only then will we have a win-win situation," Tusk said."
> ...................
> So, if Europe is finally accepting the fact that there has to be a "haircut," maybe that's a forward step.  But, there's still the Euro problem.  Basically, the "Greek euro" has to be worth less than a "EU euro."  That's the only way to get Greek exports cheaper for trading partners, and the only way to get "EU euros" to visit Greece and buy stuff.
> 
> The normal way to approach a debacle like Greece has is:  a.  a haircut, b. some kind of currency devaluation and c. a commitment to not just cut govt spending but more importantly to continually hold debt growth at less a % of gnp and gnp growth.
> 
> We may have a and c, but I'm not sure about b.



I'm always a bit skeptical of the idea that devaluing the currency, is a way to boast economic growth.

But in the effect of devaluing the currency, you drive up prices in your domestic economy.   That makes everyone poorer.

How is making everyone intentionally poorer, going to boast the economy?   How does inflation help the economy?

By the logic, Zimbabwe should be the largest goods exporter in all of Africa.

After all, one US Dollar is worth several Trillion Zim Dollars.   So in theory, Zimbabwe goods should be the cheapest goods on the market.

Of course, in reality, as the value of the Zimbabwe Dollar drops, goods can't be produced at the previous value, because no one is going to work for $10/hr, when $10 is only worth 1 cent of value.

So the employers have to jack up the wages, to keep people working.  Which jacks up the price, which defeats whatever benefit devaluing the currency has.  Not to mention that Greek business is importing the raw materials to make the products they are exporting.

So what difference does it make that one Euro is worth two Drachma, if the company making the product has to spend two Drachma to buy one Euro worth of raw materials?

Honestly, the whole "devalue to increase exports" sounds like voodoo economics.

The only way you can increase exports via devaluing the currency, is if people's wages stay the same in absolute terms, while their wages are falling from inflation.

Here's a thought... just allow wages to fall to start with?  Cut the minimum wage.  It would have the exact same effect, without the drama and crash of ditching the Euro.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding of one of the south American nations that defaulted was that they were doing pretty good....until some hedge funders in US started harassing them in the courts after buying up the debt pennies on the dollar....
> 
> It doesn't necessarily cost twice as much for food etc if they produce that themselves.
> 
> Why would other countries put custom duties and tariffs on?...especially if they are now trying to sell into broke Greece, when they previously sold into a subsidized Greece.
> 
> No doubt it will be tough for a while in some areas,....but the market will eventually even things out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price.   The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.
> 
> Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.
> 
> Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.
> 
> I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way.      But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.
> 
> The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.
> 
> What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission
> 
> Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
> The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.
> 
> If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.
> 
> Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.
> 
> The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.
> 
> Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.
> 
> And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.
> 
> If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.
> 
> The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.
> 
> The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
Click to expand...


Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office. 

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........


----------



## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........



The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.


----------



## dcraelin

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
Click to expand...


pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud. 

I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years. 

they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.


----------



## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
Click to expand...


More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.


----------



## dcraelin

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
Click to expand...


YOU saying they didnt have undue influence doesnt make THAT so. I would say the former employee saying it has a lot of weight.

I have just as much of an idea as you........."the child like belief that all  would be forgiven"...somehow my conjecture seems a little more realistic than your pompous braying.


----------



## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G-S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G-S exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G-S employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOU saying they didnt have undue influence doesnt make THAT so. I would say the former employee saying it has a lot of weight.
> 
> I have just as much of an idea as you........."the child like belief that all  would be forgiven"...somehow my conjecture seems a little more realistic than your pompous braying.
Click to expand...


People often have reasons for trashing their former employers that have nothing to do with the truth and I never claimed that G-S did or didn't exert undo influence ... I simply stated you have failed to make your case. IMHO it is far more likely that Greek gov't officials exerted undo influence on weak S-G accountants.
Clearly Greece CHOSE to join the EU and CHOSE not only to falsify their application but also to borrow and spend far beyond their means.
What all loony lefties (including the Greeks) just can't admit is the part Greeks played in their tragedy and their silence for so many years.


----------



## dcraelin

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G-S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G-S exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G-S employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOU saying they didnt have undue influence doesnt make THAT so. I would say the former employee saying it has a lot of weight.
> 
> I have just as much of an idea as you........."the child like belief that all  would be forgiven"...somehow my conjecture seems a little more realistic than your pompous braying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> People often have reasons for trashing their former employers that have nothing to do with the truth and I never claimed that G-S did or didn't exert undo influence ... I simply stated you have failed to make your case. IMHO it is far more likely that Greek gov't officials exerted undo influence on weak S-G accountants.
> Clearly Greece CHOSE to join the EU and CHOSE not only to falsify their application but also to borrow and spend far beyond their means.
> What all loony lefties (including the Greeks) just can't admit is the part Greeks played in their tragedy and their silence for so many years.
Click to expand...


your opinion is far from humble.............yes, the weak S-G employees came away with millions in likely fees but they were just used..........somehow I bet most of the greek "leaders" didnt make out so good.  

it was there and it is here the crooked 'conservatives' not the "loony" left that you need to worry about.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 25% unemployment
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...that means 75% employment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That means depression.
Click to expand...

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 25% unemployment
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...that means 75% employment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That means depression.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.
Click to expand...

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.


----------



## Toro

Greece is in a depression.

And they're likely to get out of it any time soon.

I hope I'm wrong though.

I do think that this delays the inevitable, and Greece will eventually default on their debt and leave the eurozone.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 25% unemployment
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...that means 75% employment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That means depression.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.
Click to expand...

Dumbass, you said:



Steinlight said:


> There is no money to collect



Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.

Pretty simple stuff here.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 25% unemployment
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...that means 75% employment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That means depression.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Dumbass, you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no money to collect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.
> 
> Pretty simple stuff here.
Click to expand...

You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default. That means, a lack of money to pay their bills. Debt and the inability to pay it off comes from not having money, not having "plenty of paychecks".

Once again, simple stuff. Not surprised it escapes you though.


----------



## IsaacNewton

We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.

As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.

China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.


----------



## Linkiloo

montelatici said:


> Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of madness.  More austerity will result in continued economic recession (depression)  and regardless of reforms Greece will owe more than than it does today.  This is only a ploy to continue *paying the creditors at the expense of European taxpayers*.
> 
> Until the Greek debt is forgiven either by the ECB et al, or the Greeks by defaulting and returning to a national currency, will there be a solution.  The Greeks cannot pay the interest due on their debt, much less the principle.


 Wrong. The creditors _are_ the European taypayers. I am one of them and I for one, want Greece out sooner than later.


----------



## Linkiloo

IsaacNewton said:


> We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.
> 
> As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.
> 
> China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.


 The Monetary Union ultimately should split up into the North and the South. That way, we northerners, will be going on cheaper holidays instead of sending out taxes over to them so that they can retire at 50. China could bail out Greece but China knows to invest its money well and isn't looking to put its money into a bad investment. Only we northern Europeans are that idiotic.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> The moment they are no longer part of the EU, automatically, there would be tariffs and import duties on goods entering the EU, just like goods imported into the US have tariffs and import duties.
> 
> The only reason some goods have zero duties and tariffs, is because we sign a free-trade agreement.
> 
> For Greece to do this, they would have to go negotiate a treaty with the EU........  the same EU they just defaulted on.....   Do you really really think that those negotiations are going to go well?    Not a chance.
> 
> Why would they impose duties or tariffs on goods exported from Greece?   Oh gee I don't know.... maybe to pay back the debt they still owe?
> 
> Why would Greece impose duties and tariffs on goods imported into Greece?   Oh I don't know... maybe because the government is completely broke and desperate for cash?
> 
> And don't underestimate how much the price of food would go up.
> 
> View attachment 44399
> This is Greece.   Empty shelves.
> 
> Greek Importers Begin to Feel the Squeeze - WSJ
> 
> Greece hasn't produced enough food to feed itself for decades.   Now maybe it will....
> 
> But remember, they have to import seed, import tires, tractors, pesticide, herbicides, fertilizer, fuel for the equipment....
> 
> The price of food, and all common goods will drastically increase.   It's unavoidable.
> 
> As for African nations....  Yeah, any nation can do fantastic borrowing endlessly.   If I open a dozen credit cards, and mortgage my home, and borrow a car loan.....  I can live like a King....  for awhile.
> 
> Eventually the notes come due, and the entire system crashes.
> 
> Similarly, a nation can borrow endlessly and do just amazingly well....  Then when the notes come due, instead of blaming themselves for borrowing, they blame the IMF or whoever was dumb enough to lend to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price.   The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.
> 
> Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.
> 
> Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.
> 
> I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way.      But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.
> 
> The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.
> 
> What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission
> 
> Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
> The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.
> 
> If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.
> 
> Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.
> 
> The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.
> 
> Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.
> 
> And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.
> 
> If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.
> 
> The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.
> 
> The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
Click to expand...


Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.
> 
> As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.
> 
> China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.



I've heard this claim too.   I don't understand the logic behind this.

Even the most optimistic of economists, suggests that leaving the EU, would be absolutely catastrophic for Greece.

Who would invest in Greece if they left?   If I'm an investor, the last place I'd invest in would be Greece if they left.   Importing raw materials would be more expensive, because there would be import duties, and the decline of the Drachma, would mean I'd have to spend more to get less material to run my company.

Additionally, now all my exports would have custom duties levied against my products, making them less competitive against EU produced goods.

There would be zero benefits, and tons of negatives.

The economy would at the minimum go into recession, and at worst, a decade long depression.

The whole reason countries joined the EU and Eurozone, was specifically because it was economically beneficial.    And that has been echo'd by people interviewed in Greece.  They want to stay in the EU.

Now perhaps all that is wrong, but assuming it is not wrong, then why not let them leave the EU?

If Greece does crash into total depression after leaving the EU, I think the danger of other countries leaving the EU would be lower, not higher.   If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead.... not more.    It doesn't make sense, that people would see destruction, and conclude they want the same deal.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> first of all I dont know that it is automatic increases in tariff when out of EU............if so the market will find the correct new price.   The monetray union I believe came after some of the other stuff so maybe still under EU anyway regarding trade.
> 
> Yes perhaps creditor nations will try to up tariffs but they will get push-back from those doing business, same visa versa.
> 
> Have to import seed?.........hell no they wont have to import seed, they may but they may not, and I dont know about tractors tires etc. either.
> 
> I said nothing about African nations, I did mention South America...........I agree with you, in a way.      But the crooked rt-wing politicians in Greece hid their borrowing from their constituents. more open government is part of the answer.
> 
> The IMF is contributed to by member countries, including us I think. and those "dumb enough" to lend to Greece have used undo influence to insulate themselves...they are largely gone.....It will hit the EU taxpayer, and even us to some extent I think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.
> 
> What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission
> 
> Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
> The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.
> 
> If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.
> 
> Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.
> 
> The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.
> 
> Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.
> 
> And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.
> 
> If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.
> 
> The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.
> 
> The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
Click to expand...


I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy. 

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity


----------



## Toro

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
Click to expand...


GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.


----------



## dcraelin

Toro said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
Click to expand...


BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
Click to expand...


You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".


----------



## Unkotare

Andylusion said:


> [
> 
> Who would invest in Greece if they left? ...




Russian mafioso.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.
> 
> What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission
> 
> Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
> The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.
> 
> If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.
> 
> Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.
> 
> The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.
> 
> Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.
> 
> And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.
> 
> If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.
> 
> The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.
> 
> The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
Click to expand...


So basically it doesn't matter what the evidence, because in the end, everything is what you have already determined it to be.

Kind of you to let everyone know it's a waste of time talking to you.


----------



## Andylusion

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> Who would invest in Greece if they left? ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian mafioso.
Click to expand...


I highly doubt that.   The only way Russia would invest, is if they could get highly favorable policies.   I can't see Greeks handling that well.

They would invest if the economy was strong enough to be profitable to begin with.... but clearly that isn't the case.  Thus they would only do it, if they could get some sort of monoplistic policies.

You think Greece will buy?  I can't see it.


----------



## theHawk

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.



LOL, how did that work out for them?  

This is exactly what is wrong with progressives, they think they can just hold some feel good referendum and it will make all their problems go away.

This one blew up their face.


----------



## SAYIT

theHawk said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly what is wrong with progressives, they think they can just hold some feel good referendum and it will make all their problems go away. This one blew up their face.
Click to expand...


It's not like the loony left cabal gives a flying donkey chip. They are so busy celebrating their Oxi "victory" (spending OPM to pay for the party) that they just don't see the carnage it has wrought. If you build your house of straw the big bad wolf _will_ blow it down.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.
> 
> As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.
> 
> China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard this claim too.   I don't understand the logic behind this.
> 
> Even the most optimistic of economists, suggests that leaving the EU, would be absolutely catastrophic for Greece.
> 
> Who would invest in Greece if they left?   If I'm an investor, the last place I'd invest in would be Greece if they left.   Importing raw materials would be more expensive, because there would be import duties, and the decline of the Drachma, would mean I'd have to spend more to get less material to run my company.
> 
> Additionally, now all my exports would have custom duties levied against my products, making them less competitive against EU produced goods.
> 
> There would be zero benefits, and tons of negatives.
> 
> The economy would at the minimum go into recession, and at worst, a decade long depression.
> 
> The whole reason countries joined the EU and Eurozone, was specifically because it was economically beneficial.    And that has been echo'd by people interviewed in Greece.  They want to stay in the EU.
> 
> Now perhaps all that is wrong, but assuming it is not wrong, then why not let them leave the EU?
> 
> If Greece does crash into total depression after leaving the EU, I think the danger of other countries leaving the EU would be lower, not higher.   If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead.... not more.    It doesn't make sense, that people would see destruction, and conclude they want the same deal.
Click to expand...


We are talking about nations, what 'you' would do is irrelevant.

There are many in the Eurozone talking about this very thing, because nations don't take kindly to being told what to do.

The rest of the world doesn't have the cowboy attitude. That is a U.S. thing.


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see what happens in the end. The Eurozone couldn't afford to let Greece go as there are others that are tottering on the brink as well and they would see the writing on the wall and leave. Portugal, Spain.
> 
> As I said at the beginning the bad players in the world are watching what the western democracies do for each other or to each other. It makes a huge difference.
> 
> China could bail out Greece in a heartbeat and realign a Nato member into their sphere very quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard this claim too.   I don't understand the logic behind this.
> 
> Even the most optimistic of economists, suggests that leaving the EU, would be absolutely catastrophic for Greece.
> 
> Who would invest in Greece if they left?   If I'm an investor, the last place I'd invest in would be Greece if they left.   Importing raw materials would be more expensive, because there would be import duties, and the decline of the Drachma, would mean I'd have to spend more to get less material to run my company.
> 
> Additionally, now all my exports would have custom duties levied against my products, making them less competitive against EU produced goods.
> 
> There would be zero benefits, and tons of negatives.
> 
> The economy would at the minimum go into recession, and at worst, a decade long depression.
> 
> The whole reason countries joined the EU and Eurozone, was specifically because it was economically beneficial.    And that has been echo'd by people interviewed in Greece.  They want to stay in the EU.
> 
> Now perhaps all that is wrong, but assuming it is not wrong, then why not let them leave the EU?
> 
> If Greece does crash into total depression after leaving the EU, I think the danger of other countries leaving the EU would be lower, not higher.   If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead.... not more.    It doesn't make sense, that people would see destruction, and conclude they want the same deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We are talking about nations, what 'you' would do is irrelevant.
> 
> There are many in the Eurozone talking about this very thing, because nations don't take kindly to being told what to do.
> 
> The rest of the world doesn't have the cowboy attitude. That is a U.S. thing.
Click to expand...


And you don't see the inherent contradiction?

Greece is trying to dictate to other nations "You have to loan us money, and you have to do so without stipulations".

Germany doesn't take too kindly to be told what to do either.

Nor do many of the EU countries that Greece is trying to dictate terms to.

If Greece doesn't want to be told what to do.... as I said before..... there's an easy solution.   Stop borrowing money, and they can ignore all of them.

But as long as Greece demands loans, people are going to tell them what to do.  That isn't a "U.S." thing.  That's a world wide, everywhere thing.

And contrary to what you claim, the entire argument going on in the Eurozone is proof that I'm right, and you are wrong.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> The effort to excuse Greece's actions in this matter has gone from Greek Tragedy to Theater of the Absurd. G.S's willful complicity has neither been proven nor would it have constituted "undue influence" on what you claim to have been Greece's "corrupt leaders." What we do know is that successive Greek gov'ts used borrowed money to buy votes and civil silence, expecting Brussels to carry their load in perpetuity. When the jig was up they simply abandoned their responsibility, voting "OXI" in the child-like belief that all would be forgiven. Stupid, yet soooo left-leaning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
Click to expand...


you have shown me no proof


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So basically it doesn't matter what the evidence, because in the end, everything is what you have already determined it to be.
> 
> Kind of you to let everyone know it's a waste of time talking to you.
Click to expand...


ditto my last reply


----------



## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
Click to expand...


He made no unsubstantiated claims such as "It very well did constitute undue influence" and "they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party 'ew Democracy' by the bankers and elitists" and "they are fuckin scum." The fact remains it has been you and only you posting BS and pretending it is fact. You've proven none of it but you have proven yourself to be a rabid loony leftist just filled to the brim with hate for anyone or anything successful.


----------



## Toro

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> pretty sure  it was the rt-leaning government that dealt with Goldman-Sachs.   It very well did constitute undue influence...it could be worse, it could be complicity in fraud.
> 
> I would agree to this extent, that the  Greek people have a right-like attitude towards paying taxes that has damaged their finances for years.
> 
> they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party "New Democracy", by the bankers and elitists...who used bail-outs to bail out bankers but not the common people of Greece.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
Click to expand...


You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.


----------



## SAYIT

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...If I'm Portugal, and I see Greece ditch the Euro and end up in catastrophe, I would be less interested in following their lead...
> 
> 
> 
> We are talking about nations, what 'you' would do is irrelevant. There are many in the Eurozone talking about this very thing, because nations don't take kindly to being told what to do...
Click to expand...


Andy's opinion _is_ about how other nations might react to Greece's demise and opinion is certainly a valid part of the discussion here. I wish we could get some rational opinions from the socialist side.
All this whining and hand-wringing is making my head hurt.


----------



## dcraelin

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He made no unsubstantiated claims such as "It very well did constitute undue influence" and "they voted OXI because they felt deceived by the rt party 'ew Democracy' by the bankers and elitists" and "they are fuckin scum." The fact remains it has been you and only you posting BS and pretending it is fact. You've proven none of it but you have proven yourself to be a rabid loony leftist just filled to the brim with hate for anyone or anything successful.
Click to expand...

''

This is also a forum of opinion you dolt,  "They are fukin scum" is clearly opinion.

he said the Greeks acted like children...........is that fact or unsubstantiated claim?????

I hate not the successful if it really is success, not undue influence peddling and the scum actions of bankers preying on weak and/or corrupt and/or retarded rt-wing politicians;  or if they prey on naive lft-wingers who blindly trust scum bankers.


----------



## dcraelin

Toro said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
> Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
> Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a  referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.
Click to expand...


you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Making me work to prove my case eh?    Very well.
> 
> What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission
> 
> Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​
> The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU.   The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.
> 
> If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.
> 
> Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU.    While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.
> 
> The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust.   Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU.   Possible... yes.   Likely?  No.
> 
> Corrupt Right wing?   Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean.  From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades.  New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.
> 
> And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending.   If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements.   That's how lending works.
> 
> If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great.  Don't borrow the money.
> 
> The IMF is not dumb for lending.  They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back.   That's why everyone hates the IMF.   They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.
> 
> The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly.   The EU taxpayers are screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
Click to expand...

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it. 

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.


----------



## Steinlight

Greeks are as capable of building a Nordic or German like society as Mexicans are of building an American one. Meaning not at all.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...that means 75% employment.
> 
> 
> 
> That means depression.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Dumbass, you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no money to collect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.
> 
> Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.
Click to expand...

That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> That means depression.
> 
> 
> 
> It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Dumbass, you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no money to collect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.
> 
> Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.
Click to expand...

You are the one that said Greece had plenty of paychecks to pay back this debt. Take some responsibility for your asinine posts.


----------



## IsaacNewton

The Greek parliament voted for the EU deal.

What is so hard to understand about how democracy works. You don't cram your shit down the throat of a nation of millions of people no matter what it is.

See how democracy works? It matters. To the Greek people and it matter as to how the rest of the world views Western democracies.

Cons worship money to a sick degree and crap on democracy whenever it conflicts with their worship of money.

Fascism.


----------



## SAYIT

IsaacNewton said:


> The Greek parliament voted for the EU deal.
> 
> What is so hard to understand about how democracy works. You don't cram your shit down the throat of a nation of millions of people no matter what it is.
> 
> See how democracy works? It matters. To the Greek people and it matter as to how the rest of the world views Western democracies.
> 
> Cons worship money to a sick degree and crap on democracy whenever it conflicts with their worship of money.
> 
> Fascism.



Loony leftists will buy any idiocy.
So how was Greece's democracy usurped and how did the silliness of the past month (or 6 months) do anything to improve the lives of the people of Greece?
Tsipras's claim that the referendum got Greece a "better deal" is absurd.
Greece got fucked and they have the dog & pony (Tsipras & Varoufakis) to thank.


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> The Greek parliament voted for the EU deal.
> 
> What is so hard to understand about how democracy works. You don't cram your shit down the throat of a nation of millions of people no matter what it is.
> 
> See how democracy works? It matters. To the Greek people and it matter as to how the rest of the world views Western democracies.
> 
> Cons worship money to a sick degree and crap on democracy whenever it conflicts with their worship of money.
> 
> Fascism.



Democracy doesn't mean you can simply vote that 1 + 1 = 11.   Sorry.   Nor does Democracy mean that you can simply vote that other people must give you their money.

This is where you leftists are so childish.  You believe both of those are true.

If the Greek people vote that the EU must give them money, then magically they must.

If the Greek people simply vote that they want high pensions, and tons of free government services, then it doesn't matter how much money they have to fund those things, it simply must be done.

This is why the US was never supposed to be a Democracy.  The founding fathers were completely against the idea, for exactly this reason right here.

You think that just because voted x and y, that this makes x and y true.

Sorry, you are just wrong.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.
Click to expand...


We already answered this.  The Greek government specifically went to GS to ask them to provide derivatives that they could use to obscure their debt.

The banks didn't go to Greece, and asks them to buy bonds that hid their debt.


----------



## Toro

dcraelin said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.
Click to expand...


I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made. 

I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand. 

Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt. 

If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.


----------



## dcraelin

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)
> 
> PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.
> 
> You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.
> 
> As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down.  If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
Click to expand...


It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We already answered this.  The Greek government specifically went to GS to ask them to provide derivatives that they could use to obscure their debt.
> 
> The banks didn't go to Greece, and asks them to buy bonds that hid their debt.
Click to expand...


BS you have shown no proof,.....it doesnt make any sense ...since most of the Greek government probably had no idea how derivatives would mask their debt.


----------



## dcraelin

Toro said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> BULLLLLLL shit
> 
> And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them
> 
> they are fuckin scum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made.
> 
> I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand.
> 
> Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt.
> 
> If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.
Click to expand...


YOU have shown no proof, and most people think derivatives and swaps are hard to understand...probably mostly because of the jargon that surrounds them.......They have been used in the US...to hoodwink a Georgia county which went into bankruptcy  I believe and I also believe some bank, perhaps even Goldman-Sachs got in trouble over that.

G-S probably did just what your outlining they did.....it just hasnt come to light yet.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
Click to expand...

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm denying that the influence is undue.   If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence.   If you don't grant me that influence...  then forget you, I'm keeping my money.
> 
> The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money.  Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.
> 
> There's nothing "undue" about it.
> 
> Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can.    Right-wing is what you said.   New Democracy is not "right-wing".   Center-right.  Progressive-right.   But right-wing implies something that is not correct.
> 
> As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993.  They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001.  They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.
> 
> Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.
> 
> Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic.   Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe?  Perhaps.  Hard to prove the counter factual either way.
> 
> But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies.  Not even close.  The facts are not with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
Click to expand...

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search


----------



## Toro

dcraelin said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.
> 
> Maybe they are scum.  I don't know.   What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct.  Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.
> 
> The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.
> 
> Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made.
> 
> I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand.
> 
> Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt.
> 
> If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOU have shown no proof, and most people think derivatives and swaps are hard to understand...probably mostly because of the jargon that surrounds them.......They have been used in the US...to hoodwink a Georgia county which went into bankruptcy  I believe and I also believe some bank, perhaps even Goldman-Sachs got in trouble over that.
> 
> G-S probably did just what your outlining they did.....it just hasnt come to light yet.
Click to expand...


You make the Greeks sound like idiotic rubes.  That most people think derivatives are confusing doesn't mean those in the Greek Treasury found them confusing.  They knew exactly what they were doing when they wanted to find ways to hide their debts from the world.


----------



## dcraelin

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.
Click to expand...

right and taking in too little in  taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.


----------



## dcraelin

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
Click to expand...


like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing


----------



## dcraelin

Toro said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> you have shown me no proof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You were the one that made the original accusation.  You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made.
> 
> I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand.
> 
> Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt.
> 
> If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOU have shown no proof, and most people think derivatives and swaps are hard to understand...probably mostly because of the jargon that surrounds them.......They have been used in the US...to hoodwink a Georgia county which went into bankruptcy  I believe and I also believe some bank, perhaps even Goldman-Sachs got in trouble over that.
> 
> G-S probably did just what your outlining they did.....it just hasnt come to light yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You make the Greeks sound like idiotic rubes.  That most people think derivatives are confusing doesn't mean those in the Greek Treasury found them confusing.  They knew exactly what they were doing when they wanted to find ways to hide their debts from the world.
Click to expand...


unlikely,


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
Click to expand...


New Democracy is a center-right at best.  It calls itself progressive conservative.

There hasn't really been a "right-wing" party in power in Greece.

Regardless, the worst excesses were under the PASOK left-wing part, and that has been well documented.  You can simply deny it, but the facts are still not on your side.

It was the ministers under the New Democracy party that discovered that the claims made by PASOK that the deficit was only 1.5% of GDP, a lie they told to join the Eurozone, was in fact false, and the real numbers were 8.5%, way over the 3% max.

It was the ministers of New Democracy, that found out the metro rail system was so expensive, that it would have been cheaper to hire individual taxis for all of their riders, over funding the rail system.

All your "well no doubt..."  crap is garbage.   Facts over your opinions.  Thanks.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> right and taking in too little in  taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.
Click to expand...


As if you can magically collect as much in taxes as you want, to fund 'whatever the country deems'.

That's the fatal flaw in your argument.   You can jack up the tax rate to 90% like FDR did, and shockingly still not have endless funds to pay for every socialist idea you come up with.   You can nationalize most of the industry in your entire country, like Maoist China, and still not have money for basic health care.

Leftist are like immature children.  You demand what you want, and then argue everyone should just pay for it.  Like my 2 year-old nephew.... "I want I want I want", and then when you can't get what you want it's mommy governments fault for not taxing enough?

That never works in real life.  I don't go out and buy a Mazada RX-8 sports car, and then show up in my bosses office where I work "well you just need to pay me more!  I have a huge car payment, so you have to give me a raise".

Why not?  I deemed the luxury sports car necessary, so you have to pay for it.

Isn't that the exact argument you are using for Greece?  They 'deemed necessary' for Greece's pension system to cover 50% of all households in Greece.   Therefore everyone must pay for those pensions.  You need to all pay more in tax.

Then you are a moron, and ask "gee why are employers and companies pulling out of Greece?  I don't understand?  Why is unemployment rampant?  I don't get it."

See you can make the tax rate whatever the heck you want.  That doesn't mean you are going to get people to pay it.   

http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ks-pay-more-tax-not-just-hard-risky-treasures

The economist found that 43% of labor cost was all Government levies.
Almost 1/4th of all economic activity in Greece is black market.

Why?  To avoid paying taxes, and for this bloated socialist pension system.

And then you wonder why they are not collecting more tax?  Because the tax rate is too high, and people are refusing to pay it.  They move their business out of the country, and employees start working off the books.

Socialism is a universal failure.  Greece is the poster child, the quintessential example.


----------



## IsaacNewton

The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.

Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.

Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> 
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> New Democracy is a center-right at best.  It calls itself progressive conservative.
> 
> There hasn't really been a "right-wing" party in power in Greece.
> 
> Regardless, the worst excesses were under the PASOK left-wing part, and that has been well documented.  You can simply deny it, but the facts are still not on your side.
> 
> It was the ministers under the New Democracy party that discovered that the claims made by PASOK that the deficit was only 1.5% of GDP, a lie they told to join the Eurozone, was in fact false, and the real numbers were 8.5%, way over the 3% max.
> 
> It was the ministers of New Democracy, that found out the metro rail system was so expensive, that it would have been cheaper to hire individual taxis for all of their riders, over funding the rail system.
> 
> All your "well no doubt..."  crap is garbage.   Facts over your opinions.  Thanks.
Click to expand...


the historic train of events show you to be wrong.......you can deny that but the facts are not on your side.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> 
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> right and taking in too little in  taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As if you can magically collect as much in taxes as you want, to fund 'whatever the country deems'.
> 
> That's the fatal flaw in your argument.   You can jack up the tax rate to 90% like FDR did, and shockingly still not have endless funds to pay for every socialist idea you come up with.   You can nationalize most of the industry in your entire country, like Maoist China, and still not have money for basic health care.
> 
> Leftist are like immature children.  You demand what you want, and then argue everyone should just pay for it.  Like my 2 year-old nephew.... "I want I want I want", and then when you can't get what you want it's mommy governments fault for not taxing enough?
> 
> That never works in real life.  I don't go out and buy a Mazada RX-8 sports car, and then show up in my bosses office where I work "well you just need to pay me more!  I have a huge car payment, so you have to give me a raise".
> 
> Why not?  I deemed the luxury sports car necessary, so you have to pay for it.
> 
> Isn't that the exact argument you are using for Greece?  They 'deemed necessary' for Greece's pension system to cover 50% of all households in Greece.   Therefore everyone must pay for those pensions.  You need to all pay more in tax.
> 
> Then you are a moron, and ask "gee why are employers and companies pulling out of Greece?  I don't understand?  Why is unemployment rampant?  I don't get it."
> 
> See you can make the tax rate whatever the heck you want.  That doesn't mean you are going to get people to pay it.
> 
> http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ks-pay-more-tax-not-just-hard-risky-treasures
> 
> The economist found that 43% of labor cost was all Government levies.
> Almost 1/4th of all economic activity in Greece is black market.
> 
> Why?  To avoid paying taxes, and for this bloated socialist pension system.
> 
> And then you wonder why they are not collecting more tax?  Because the tax rate is too high, and people are refusing to pay it.  They move their business out of the country, and employees start working off the books.
> 
> Socialism is a universal failure.  Greece is the poster child, the quintessential example.
Click to expand...


you people are like a broken record. A pompous moronic broken record. You've stated basically this last post for the last two or 3 posts. You have added nothing new to the debate. 

you make a straw man argument about what "leftists" are for and then argue against it. 

Eisenhower took the MARGINAL rate up to 91% I believe and the economy did fine. And the rich didnt pay any more on their first say $60,000 than anybody else. 

I wasn't aware that companies were pulling out of Greece (then) 

If it is an example, a moral lesson to anyone it is to those that put rt-leaning governments in power who say they will be responsible economic stewards..... You had your history exactly wrong in the other post.........IT was PASOK who exposed the hidden debt not New Democracy.........That was all over the papers including the WSJ,

In this country their are numerous examples, especially at the local level.   Cobb Co. Georgia is building a ~$500 million dollar stadium for a billionaire with tax dollars..... pushed through against voter wishes by the "fiscally astute" "republicans".     And there are Cobb CO republicans all over this country.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> right and taking in too little in  taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, there is never enough revenue for you guys. Despite the fact it is increasing, both in the US and was the case in Greece  before the crisis. Greece paid the price for your philosophy. The US isn't quite at that point yet.  It can still be turned around here.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
Click to expand...

Increased government spending in the public sector for pensions like was the case in Greece, is not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.


----------



## dcraelin

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> 
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
Click to expand...


yeah but principles had nothing to do with it


----------



## Steinlight

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> 
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> New Democracy is a center-right at best.  It calls itself progressive conservative.
> 
> There hasn't really been a "right-wing" party in power in Greece.
> 
> Regardless, the worst excesses were under the PASOK left-wing part, and that has been well documented.  You can simply deny it, but the facts are still not on your side.
> 
> It was the ministers under the New Democracy party that discovered that the claims made by PASOK that the deficit was only 1.5% of GDP, a lie they told to join the Eurozone, was in fact false, and the real numbers were 8.5%, way over the 3% max.
> 
> It was the ministers of New Democracy, that found out the metro rail system was so expensive, that it would have been cheaper to hire individual taxis for all of their riders, over funding the rail system.
> 
> All your "well no doubt..."  crap is garbage.   Facts over your opinions.  Thanks.
Click to expand...

Golden Dawn is the most right wing party. They are basically fascists and oppose austerity. They want to leave the EU all together. Ironically, social Democrat mismanagement  has brought the rise of fascism in Greece.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
Click to expand...

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> 
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
Click to expand...


At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.
> 
> 
> 
> If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Dumbass, you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no money to collect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.
> 
> Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one that said Greece had plenty of paychecks to pay back this debt. Take some responsibility for your asinine posts.
Click to expand...

I never said that.  Now we know you're a liar as well as a wingnut.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.
> 
> I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.
> 
> The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.
> 
> Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................
> 
> I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.
> 
> On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia)  so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'
> 
> I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.
> 
> I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.
Click to expand...

Like the debt created by Bush and the Republican Congress.


----------



## Steinlight

IsaacNewton said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.
Click to expand...

With that kind of post, you are showing yourself as the mindless sheep with your narrow minded and simplistic categorizations of those who disagree with you, and in this case, clearly know more than you. You aren't anything unique, or in anyway intelligent. You are just a basic bitch social Democrat with an inflated opinion if yiurself.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> 
> 
> Dumbass, you said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no money to collect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.
> 
> Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one that said Greece had plenty of paychecks to pay back this debt. Take some responsibility for your asinine posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said that.  Now we know you're a liar as well as a wingnut.
Click to expand...

Yes you did. You are so all over the place, so spaced out, you can't even keep your posts straight.


----------



## Steinlight

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then we agree to disagree on that.  The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up.   If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.
> 
> As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story.    What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.
> 
> You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to.     If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else.  If they had refused, they would have asked someone else.     If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.
> 
> And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.
> 
> Yes they did make the choice.  As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.
> 
> Further, you make random accusations, without fact.  "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"
> 
> So you condemn people based on "they likely"?   Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party.  And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.
> 
> Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Like the debt created by Bush and the Republican Congress.
Click to expand...

So Obama defect spending us good because Bush did it? Didn't pwg you for a Dubya fan. Interesting...


----------



## IsaacNewton

Steinlight said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> 
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With that kind of post, you are showing yourself as the mindless sheep with your narrow minded and simplistic categorizations of those who disagree with you, and in this case, clearly know more than you. You aren't anything unique, or in anyway intelligent. You are just a basic bitch social Democrat with an inflated opinion if yiurself.
Click to expand...


Oh please, you put out "your ideology is failed" and you think yourself a centrist? LOL 

What ideology is that? The same one in Sweden, Switzerland, Britain, France, The Netherlands...where people are happier and medical care is good and available to everyone? That kind of failure? Or do you mean the U.S. where 1/6 of the children in the country go to bed hungry every night? Look in your own narrow minded mirror. You simply carp what Faux News and Fish Dimbaugh say every single day. The monotone drone of 'librals is evil yada yada yada yada' is the same and never stops.

You paint everyone that isn't you as 'socialist' and 'other' and 'agin all that is guud'. Sorry to break it to you but liberals are patriots, and servicemen and women, cops, firefighters, teachers...yes, walk into a fire station and yell at them how they are all socialists.

Why don't you give up on your antiquated language memes and at least come up with something new. It used to be 'commie' now its 'socialist'. What's next? These are all fabricated dog whistles that only conservatives can hear. Open YOUR mind bucko.


----------



## dcraelin

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> 
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
Click to expand...


no, they have not...........Greece had a bunch of republican-like "businessmen learned in economics" at its head under NEW Democracy.............and these Cobb County like rt-wingers ran them into the ground.


----------



## Steinlight

IsaacNewton said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With that kind of post, you are showing yourself as the mindless sheep with your narrow minded and simplistic categorizations of those who disagree with you, and in this case, clearly know more than you. You aren't anything unique, or in anyway intelligent. You are just a basic bitch social Democrat with an inflated opinion if yiurself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh please, you put out "your ideology is failed" and you think yourself a centrist? LOL
> 
> What ideology is that? The same one in Sweden, Switzerland, Britain, France, The Netherlands...where people are happier and medical care is good and available to everyone? That kind of failure? Or do you mean the U.S. where 1/6 of the children in the country go to bed hungry every night? Look in your own narrow minded mirror. You simply carp what Faux News and Fish Dimbaugh say every single day. The monotone drone of 'librals is evil yada yada yada yada' is the same and never stops.
> 
> You paint everyone that isn't you as 'socialist' and 'other' and 'agin all that is guud'. Sorry to break it to you but liberals are patriots, and servicemen and women, cops, firefighters, teachers...yes, walk into a fire station and yell at them how they are all socialists.
> 
> Why don't you give up on your antiquated language memes and at least come up with something new. It used to be 'commie' now its 'socialist'. What's next? These are all fabricated dog whistles that only conservatives can hear. Open YOUR mind bucko.
Click to expand...

Definitely not a centrist. 

Its odd you come up with France or the UK as examples of thriving social democracies, that are so much better than the US. France has record high deficits and above 10% unemployment. They are on the verge a sovereign debt crisis of there own, especially if the Greek debt they hold goes bad. The UK has a GDP per capita that is lower than every US state, except Mississippi. So much for this prosperity. Then you mention Sweden, they have the highest growing rate of economic disparity in the OECD. Due to their social democrat policies of a welfare state combined with mass third world immigration, their welfare state is experiencing strains, and pensioners and welfare recipients are seeing a decline in their benefits overall. There is a higher happiness index, but in a generation or so when Swedes become a minority in their major cities like Stockholm, as they are in Malmo, that will decline as well. The Eurozone is totally floundering. And those aforementioned economies represent the stronger countries. It is far worse, particularly in southern European countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece obviously.

France
French unemployment rising to record high Business DW.COM 01.06.2015
Hollande says debt crisis is over. But is France really out of the woods - CSMonitor.com
French deficit and public debt will reach new records in 2015 EurActiv

UK
Britain Is Poorer Than Any US State Yes Even Mississippi - Forbes

Sweden
Sweden has lots of wealth inequality
http://www.oecd.org/social/soc/40774821.pdf
Sweden Inequality growing fastest in Sweden VoxEurop.eu European news cartoons and press reviews

As for Switzerland, that makes sense. They are a small homogenous(read almost 100% White country), with a freer market than the US, I am not surprised they are better off.
Country Rankings World Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

You are living in a fantasy world where everyone who doesn't agree with your failed economic ideology is some fox news watcher, you are a cartoon. Anyone that says the US needs to implement more European style economic policies, given the sovereign debt crisis in the EU, and the economic downturn there to put it mildly, really cant be taken seriously.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.
> 
> greece tax revenues by year - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, they have not...........Greece had a bunch of republican-like "businessmen learned in economics" at its head under NEW Democracy.............and these Cobb County like rt-wingers ran them into the ground.
Click to expand...

There is nothing conservative about deficit spending for public pensions. Neither PASOK or New Democracy are conservative in any way with these policies, and both drove Greece into the ground with their massive deficit spending. 

Now these idiots are bringing on Fascism in Golden Dawn, thanks lefties.


----------



## IsaacNewton

> You are living in a fantasy world where everyone who doesn't agree with your failed economic ideology is some fox news watcher, you are a cartoon. Anyone that says the US needs to implement more European style economic policies, given the sovereign debt crisis in the EU, and the economic downturn there to put it mildly, really cant be taken seriously.



Good, go play with your fellow mental midgets then.


----------



## dcraelin

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
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> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
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> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing
> 
> 
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, they have not...........Greece had a bunch of republican-like "businessmen learned in economics" at its head under NEW Democracy.............and these Cobb County like rt-wingers ran them into the ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nothing conservative about deficit spending for public pensions. Neither PASOK or New Democracy are conservative in any way with these policies, and both drove Greece into the ground with their massive deficit spending.
> 
> Now these idiots are bringing on Fascism in Golden Dawn, thanks lefties.
Click to expand...


I agree it wasnt really conservative of them...but I bet they ran like our "Conservatives"...belly-aching about irresponsible lefties etc. etc. etc.


----------



## montelatici

Steinlight said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> 
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With that kind of post, you are showing yourself as the mindless sheep with your narrow minded and simplistic categorizations of those who disagree with you, and in this case, clearly know more than you. You aren't anything unique, or in anyway intelligent. You are just a basic bitch social Democrat with an inflated opinion if yiurself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh please, you put out "your ideology is failed" and you think yourself a centrist? LOL
> 
> What ideology is that? The same one in Sweden, Switzerland, Britain, France, The Netherlands...where people are happier and medical care is good and available to everyone? That kind of failure? Or do you mean the U.S. where 1/6 of the children in the country go to bed hungry every night? Look in your own narrow minded mirror. You simply carp what Faux News and Fish Dimbaugh say every single day. The monotone drone of 'librals is evil yada yada yada yada' is the same and never stops.
> 
> You paint everyone that isn't you as 'socialist' and 'other' and 'agin all that is guud'. Sorry to break it to you but liberals are patriots, and servicemen and women, cops, firefighters, teachers...yes, walk into a fire station and yell at them how they are all socialists.
> 
> Why don't you give up on your antiquated language memes and at least come up with something new. It used to be 'commie' now its 'socialist'. What's next? These are all fabricated dog whistles that only conservatives can hear. Open YOUR mind bucko.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Definitely not a centrist.
> 
> Its odd you come up with France or the UK as examples of thriving social democracies, that are so much better than the US. France has record high deficits and above 10% unemployment. They are on the verge a sovereign debt crisis of there own, especially if the Greek debt they hold goes bad. The UK has a GDP per capita that is lower than every US state, except Mississippi. So much for this prosperity. Then you mention Sweden, they have the highest growing rate of economic disparity in the OECD. Due to their social democrat policies of a welfare state combined with mass third world immigration, their welfare state is experiencing strains, and pensioners and welfare recipients are seeing a decline in their benefits overall. There is a higher happiness index, but in a generation or so when Swedes become a minority in their major cities like Stockholm, as they are in Malmo, that will decline as well. The Eurozone is totally floundering. And those aforementioned economies represent the stronger countries. It is far worse, particularly in southern European countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece obviously.
> 
> France
> French unemployment rising to record high Business DW.COM 01.06.2015
> Hollande says debt crisis is over. But is France really out of the woods - CSMonitor.com
> French deficit and public debt will reach new records in 2015 EurActiv
> 
> UK
> Britain Is Poorer Than Any US State Yes Even Mississippi - Forbes
> 
> Sweden
> Sweden has lots of wealth inequality
> http://www.oecd.org/social/soc/40774821.pdf
> Sweden Inequality growing fastest in Sweden VoxEurop.eu European news cartoons and press reviews
> 
> As for Switzerland, that makes sense. They are a small homogenous(read almost 100% White country), with a freer market than the US, I am not surprised they are better off.
> Country Rankings World Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom
> 
> You are living in a fantasy world where everyone who doesn't agree with your failed economic ideology is some fox news watcher, you are a cartoon. Anyone that says the US needs to implement more European style economic policies, given the sovereign debt crisis in the EU, and the economic downturn there to put it mildly, really cant be taken seriously.
Click to expand...


Lots of propaganda, no facts.


----------



## Steinlight

dcraelin said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, they have not...........Greece had a bunch of republican-like "businessmen learned in economics" at its head under NEW Democracy.............and these Cobb County like rt-wingers ran them into the ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nothing conservative about deficit spending for public pensions. Neither PASOK or New Democracy are conservative in any way with these policies, and both drove Greece into the ground with their massive deficit spending.
> 
> Now these idiots are bringing on Fascism in Golden Dawn, thanks lefties.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it wasnt really conservative of them...but I bet they ran like our "Conservatives"...belly-aching about irresponsible lefties etc. etc. etc.
Click to expand...

Apparently neither PASOK or New Democracy bellyached enough. They ran Greece into the ground with deficit spending.


----------



## dcraelin

Steinlight said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah but principles had nothing to do with it
> 
> 
> 
> Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending,  have failed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no, they have not...........Greece had a bunch of republican-like "businessmen learned in economics" at its head under NEW Democracy.............and these Cobb County like rt-wingers ran them into the ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nothing conservative about deficit spending for public pensions. Neither PASOK or New Democracy are conservative in any way with these policies, and both drove Greece into the ground with their massive deficit spending.
> 
> Now these idiots are bringing on Fascism in Golden Dawn, thanks lefties.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree it wasnt really conservative of them...but I bet they ran like our "Conservatives"...belly-aching about irresponsible lefties etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apparently neither PASOK or New Democracy bellyached enough. They ran Greece into the ground with deficit spending.
Click to expand...


They were hypocrites yes


----------



## theHawk

IsaacNewton said:


> The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.
> 
> Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.
> 
> Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.



What happens when "cons" protest excessive government spending and demand deficit reduction, and a balanced budget?  They get called racists.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
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> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
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> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dumbass, you said:
> 
> Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.
> 
> Pretty simple stuff here.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one that said Greece had plenty of paychecks to pay back this debt. Take some responsibility for your asinine posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said that.  Now we know you're a liar as well as a wingnut.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes you did. You are so all over the place, so spaced out, you can't even keep your posts straight.
Click to expand...

Then quote me or shut the fuck up.  I never said it.


----------



## Synthaholic

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
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> Steinlight said:
> 
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> dcraelin said:
> 
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> Steinlight said:
> 
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> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt your "facts"
> 
> it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.
> 
> You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity
> 
> 
> 
> The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.
> 
> Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Like the debt created by Bush and the Republican Congress.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So Obama defect spending us good because Bush did it? Didn't pwg you for a Dubya fan. Interesting...
Click to expand...

Obama hasn't done any "defect spending", you defective.


----------



## Synthaholic

theHawk said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.
> 
> Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.
> 
> Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happens when "cons" protest excessive government spending and demand deficit reduction, and a balanced budget?  They get called racists.
Click to expand...

You can't pay down the debt with just cuts to children in poverty.

Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.


----------



## theHawk

Synthaholic said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.
> 
> Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.
> 
> Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happens when "cons" protest excessive government spending and demand deficit reduction, and a balanced budget?  They get called racists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't pay down the debt with just cuts to children in poverty.
> 
> Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.
Click to expand...


Oh of course, the solution is to continue to borrow more money, then spend even more, and keep increasing the debt.  Smart plan.


----------



## Tehon

I believe the Pope stated it correctly when he called out that what the banks were doing in Greece and elsewhere  is just a new form of colonialism. Except it really isn't that new.


> What is happening in Europe in the name of the troika? A must-see for anyone who wants to understand the situation in Greece. The European Union and International Monetary Fund have lent more than 400 billion Euros to Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Cyprus to keep these countries solvent. The lenders granted enormous power to the three institutions of the so called troika: the IMF, the European Central Bank and the European Commission. Without any public accountability, the troika is forcing the crisis states to implement policies that are tearing the social fabric of their countries apart. German journalist and best-selling author Harald Schumann travelled to Athens, Lisbon, Dublin, Nicosia, Brussels, Washington, New York and London, in order to find out who has actually benefited from austerity measures. He puts this question to ministers, parliamentarians, economists, bankers, doctors and also to the victims of these policies, the unemployed and the ill. Among the many people we meet are Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman, IMF Director Paulo Batista and Yanis Varoufakis, the newly elected Greek finance minister. Schumann’s revelations are often devastating and shocking. Given the negotiations currently taking place between the newly elected Greek government and their European partners, this film is of great political and economic relevance.


----------



## Phoenall

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.







The banks could just say NO and withhold the money leaving the Greeks to sink or swim on their own. It would send a very strong message to the rest of Europe to tighten their belts and suck it in. Why should the countries that have made the sacrifices have to pay to bail out those that want to keep spending other peoples money.


----------



## Meathead

IsaacNewton said:


> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.


Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?


----------



## IsaacNewton

Meathead said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
Click to expand...


LOL Not at all.


----------



## Synthaholic

theHawk said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.
> 
> Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.
> 
> Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happens when "cons" protest excessive government spending and demand deficit reduction, and a balanced budget?  They get called racists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't pay down the debt with just cuts to children in poverty.
> 
> Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh of course, the solution is to continue to borrow more money, then spend even more, and keep increasing the debt.  Smart plan.
Click to expand...

Again:

Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.

Ignore it again bitch.


----------



## theHawk

Synthaholic said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.
> 
> Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.
> 
> Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happens when "cons" protest excessive government spending and demand deficit reduction, and a balanced budget?  They get called racists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't pay down the debt with just cuts to children in poverty.
> 
> Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh of course, the solution is to continue to borrow more money, then spend even more, and keep increasing the debt.  Smart plan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again:
> 
> Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.
> 
> Ignore it again bitch.
Click to expand...


It's not Congress' job to pass a "revenue raising bill", whatever the fuck that is, it's their job to pass a balanced budget.  The GOP house has passed many budget bills that get ignored by the Dem Senate and the Hussein.

Demanding someone else look it up for you because you are too lazy, doesn't mean you've proven any point, other than you are lazy.


----------



## Andylusion

Phoenall said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The banks could just say NO and withhold the money leaving the Greeks to sink or swim on their own. It would send a very strong message to the rest of Europe to tighten their belts and suck it in. Why should the countries that have made the sacrifices have to pay to bail out those that want to keep spending other peoples money.
Click to expand...


Actually that's exactly what the banks did.     The entire problem started when the banks said no, and with held money.

The problem was, while private banks were smart enough to stop buying Greek bonds, and sell off the bonds they did have.....   The government run institutions, the ECB, the IMF, the Eurozone, they all said 'yes' and loaned Greece even more money.

That's what they should have done, is simply let Greece default, and the train wreck to follow would have been a warning by itself.

With the way that they bailed out Greece, now the Greeks blame them for their troubles, and the situation is worse.


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
Click to expand...


Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.

The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.


----------



## Andylusion

theHawk said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.
> 
> Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.
> 
> Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What happens when "cons" protest excessive government spending and demand deficit reduction, and a balanced budget?  They get called racists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't pay down the debt with just cuts to children in poverty.
> 
> Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh of course, the solution is to continue to borrow more money, then spend even more, and keep increasing the debt.  Smart plan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again:
> 
> Please name the revenue-raising bills that have been passed by the Republican House, who have been in control since 2010.
> 
> Ignore it again bitch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not Congress' job to pass a "revenue raising bill", whatever the fuck that is, it's their job to pass a balanced budget.  The GOP house has passed many budget bills that get ignored by the Dem Senate and the Hussein.
> 
> Demanding someone else look it up for you because you are too lazy, doesn't mean you've proven any point, other than you are lazy.
Click to expand...


Not to mention, Greece proves conclusively, that this idea government can just 'raise revenue' at will, is a joke.

The tax rates in Greece are vastly higher than here in the US.... yet they went absolutely bankrupt.


----------



## Synthaholic

theHawk said:


> It's not Congress' job to pass a "revenue raising bill"


Of course it is.  Specifically, the House.


----------



## Synthaholic

Andylusion said:


> *The tax rates in Greece are vastly higher than here in the US*.... yet they went absolutely bankrupt.


Makes no difference if the citizens don't pay them.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
Click to expand...


All old news.

You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.

International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.

STICK IT!!


----------



## Synthaholic

Andylusion said:


> this idea government can just 'raise revenue' at will, is a joke.


They can't raise taxes?
They can't impose import/export fees?
They can't lease/sell assets?
Are you an idiot?


----------



## Andylusion

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
Click to expand...


We've already covered this.  The vast majority of the debt Greece owes, isn't to "international banks / predatory lending binge".   The vast majority of the money they owe now, is to other tax payers.   Most of the rest, is to their own banks, which is funded by their own people.

It's not the 'international bank' boogie man you claim.

Moreover, no one threatened a democracy.   They threatened themselves.   They borrowed too much money, to pay for their socialist programs, and they went broke.   The only people that caused them to be threatened, was themselves.

Lastly, they didn't stick it to the wealthy.    They stuck it to themselves.   They had a bailout agreement, that was working.  They voted for a left-wing socialist party, who screwed the deal up.   Their economy which had just returned to growth is now shrinking again, and they have a new bailout deal that is worse than the one they had before.

There is no rational perspective in which this worked out in their favor.   By any angle you look at it, Greece is worse off.

Greece s economy could shrink by another 4 this year - Jul. 17 2015

In 2013, the rate was -3.3%.   This year, they are on track to shrink by 4%.    They have made the damage worse.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Andylusion said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We've already covered this.  The vast majority of the debt Greece owes, isn't to "international banks / predatory lending binge".   The vast majority of the money they owe now, is to other tax payers.   Most of the rest, is to their own banks, which is funded by their own people.
> 
> It's not the 'international bank' boogie man you claim.
> 
> Moreover, no one threatened a democracy.   They threatened themselves.   They borrowed too much money, to pay for their socialist programs, and they went broke.   The only people that caused them to be threatened, was themselves.
> 
> Lastly, they didn't stick it to the wealthy.    They stuck it to themselves.   They had a bailout agreement, that was working.  They voted for a left-wing socialist party, who screwed the deal up.   Their economy which had just returned to growth is now shrinking again, and they have a new bailout deal that is worse than the one they had before.
> 
> There is no rational perspective in which this worked out in their favor.   By any angle you look at it, Greece is worse off.
> 
> Greece s economy could shrink by another 4 this year - Jul. 17 2015
> 
> In 2013, the rate was -3.3%.   This year, they are on track to shrink by 4%.    They have made the damage worse.
Click to expand...


The banks were the original loan agents.


----------



## theHawk

IsaacNewton said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
Click to expand...


It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.


----------



## Zander

Yeah!! Greece told em to "stick it!!" !! ..... and came away with a worse deal.....now they're truly fucked. They can never pay back the debt, so why bother? Get the pain over. Face the music. It's over. 

They'd of been better off sticking to their guns and walking away from the EU.  But that would require balls, something very few in the political class possess.


----------



## Meathead

Socialism once again prostates itself at the feet of capitalism. This David had no sling to confront Goliath.


----------



## IsaacNewton

theHawk said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.
> 
> The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
> Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice
> 
> For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.
> 
> I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.
> 
> What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
Click to expand...


Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.

Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa


----------



## dcraelin

IsaacNewton said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
Click to expand...


They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.

It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.


----------



## Meathead

dcraelin said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
Click to expand...

Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.

Don't address things that you know nothing about.


----------



## dcraelin

Meathead said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
Click to expand...


you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.

I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.

Dont try and change history

The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.

"It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."


----------



## Meathead

dcraelin said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
Click to expand...

You're out of your league on this one kid. The conservatives have been in power for only 8 years in the last 35: 
List of Prime Ministers of Greece - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Tsipras did an about face because he finally understood that he would be the one to take Greece out of the Euro and his finance minister, Varoufakis, was an idiot.


----------



## Andylusion

Zander said:


> Yeah!! Greece told em to "stick it!!" !! ..... and came away with a worse deal.....now they're truly fucked. They can never pay back the debt, so why bother? Get the pain over. Face the music. It's over.
> 
> They'd of been better off sticking to their guns and walking away from the EU.  But that would require balls, something very few in the political class possess.



Actually, they could pay back the loans.  Honestly, the numbers suggest that if Greece wanted to, they still can pay back the loans.

However, it will require that they cut spending drastically.   And I mean DRASTICALLY.

The question isn't "can Greece pay back the loans?"  That's already answered 'yes'.   The question is "are they willing to pay back the loans?"   And that isn't answered yet.   It might be no.  

In which case, then Greece is screwed worse than anything they have gone through thus far.

If they do not pay back these loans... they will be kicked out of the EU.   If they are kicked out of the EU...  I can't see how the results would be anything short of a failed state.  Inflation would be massive.  Companies would pull out of Greece.   Unemployment would be horrendous.

They already, as things are right now, have a huge brain drain.  Mass exodus from Greece of all the professionals and capitalists that create jobs.   If they are kicked out of the EU, they don't stand a chance of recovering.   At least not in the next decade.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
Click to expand...


We've tried telling you the truth.  I've posted links to the truth.   I posted several in fact, from various news sources, including the BBC.

You are in fact wrong.   Just flat out, you are wrong.

If you can't take the truth, then you have disqualified yourself from this debate.

Greece debt crisis How did we get here - CNN.com

In fact, most people agreed that Greece cooked it's books in 2002, while PASOK was still in power.   But the real bomb shell hit in 2004, when New Democracy came to power, and did a review of the numbers, and found things were much worse than anyone suspected.

Now you have the option right here to decide whether you accept the reality that everyone who knows what was going on, all agree is the truth, or to instead prove yourself too incompetent to talk to on this forum.

Which is it?


----------



## dcraelin

Meathead said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're out of your league on this one kid. The conservatives have been in power for only 8 years in the last 35:
> List of Prime Ministers of Greece - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> Tsipras did an about face because he finally understood that he would be the one to take Greece out of the Euro and his finance minister, Varoufakis, was an idiot.
Click to expand...


I think you're lying, and if you're not than those 8 years were the most devastating of all. 

Strange about face in something like 24 hours..........I think interpol or someone should come in and see if his life was threatened by thug bankers. 

Varoufakis was a teacher in Texas...maybe he did pick up some idiocy there.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We've tried telling you the truth.  I've posted links to the truth.   I posted several in fact, from various news sources, including the BBC.
> 
> You are in fact wrong.   Just flat out, you are wrong.
> 
> If you can't take the truth, then you have disqualified yourself from this debate.
> 
> Greece debt crisis How did we get here - CNN.com
> 
> In fact, most people agreed that Greece cooked it's books in 2002, while PASOK was still in power.   But the real bomb shell hit in 2004, when New Democracy came to power, and did a review of the numbers, and found things were much worse than anyone suspected.
> 
> Now you have the option right here to decide whether you accept the reality that everyone who knows what was going on, all agree is the truth, or to instead prove yourself too incompetent to talk to on this forum.
> 
> Which is it?
Click to expand...



I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We've tried telling you the truth.  I've posted links to the truth.   I posted several in fact, from various news sources, including the BBC.
> 
> You are in fact wrong.   Just flat out, you are wrong.
> 
> If you can't take the truth, then you have disqualified yourself from this debate.
> 
> Greece debt crisis How did we get here - CNN.com
> 
> In fact, most people agreed that Greece cooked it's books in 2002, while PASOK was still in power.   But the real bomb shell hit in 2004, when New Democracy came to power, and did a review of the numbers, and found things were much worse than anyone suspected.
> 
> Now you have the option right here to decide whether you accept the reality that everyone who knows what was going on, all agree is the truth, or to instead prove yourself too incompetent to talk to on this forum.
> 
> Which is it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.
Click to expand...


Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.


----------



## theHawk

IsaacNewton said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, I'll bet you feel pretty stupid now, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL Not at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?   Greece is now screwed over far worse than they were before.    All the referendum did, was destroy trust between Greece and the lenders, which is why the bailout package they agreed to NOW, after the vote, is worse than the bailout package they rejected before the referendum.
> 
> The only way someone who posted a thread like this, could not feel stupid, is if they were in fact so stupid, they didn't realize how badly this went for Socialist Syriza, and the Greek public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All old news.
> 
> You don't threaten a democracy and expect the vote to be a nation of people on their knees begging for help.
> 
> International banks have been on a predatory lending binge for the last 14 years, since Shrub took office. They caused the worldwide recession in 2008 that is still going on. This is what the Greek people did, they said fuck off to the very few who have wealth and are manipulating whoever they can manipulate.
> 
> STICK IT!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if an angry mob got together and said "fuck off".  They were lied to by their leftist politicians, not the banks.  Fortunately the world doesn't have to bow down to the wishes of one angry mob, no matter how much you would like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just the never ending con meme that Dimbaugh and Faux News puts out. You know, the people that brought you, along with Bush the the Repbulicans, the 2008 Great Recession.
> 
> Yeah, those are the idiots someone would want to consult on economics. hahahahhaa
Click to expand...


If it is just another right wing "meme" then why did the Greek referendum count for NOTHING?  

You can try to deflect all you want, it won't change the facts.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> They were lied to by the rt-wing politicians, the debt came to light under the center-leftists.
> 
> It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We've tried telling you the truth.  I've posted links to the truth.   I posted several in fact, from various news sources, including the BBC.
> 
> You are in fact wrong.   Just flat out, you are wrong.
> 
> If you can't take the truth, then you have disqualified yourself from this debate.
> 
> Greece debt crisis How did we get here - CNN.com
> 
> In fact, most people agreed that Greece cooked it's books in 2002, while PASOK was still in power.   But the real bomb shell hit in 2004, when New Democracy came to power, and did a review of the numbers, and found things were much worse than anyone suspected.
> 
> Now you have the option right here to decide whether you accept the reality that everyone who knows what was going on, all agree is the truth, or to instead prove yourself too incompetent to talk to on this forum.
> 
> Which is it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
Click to expand...


Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be an ignorant ass, the EU and Greek people were lied to about the true debt during the administration of Kostas Simitis in 2001, a socialist prime minister which has led to his party, PASOK, becoming practically obsolete.
> 
> Don't address things that you know nothing about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We've tried telling you the truth.  I've posted links to the truth.   I posted several in fact, from various news sources, including the BBC.
> 
> You are in fact wrong.   Just flat out, you are wrong.
> 
> If you can't take the truth, then you have disqualified yourself from this debate.
> 
> Greece debt crisis How did we get here - CNN.com
> 
> In fact, most people agreed that Greece cooked it's books in 2002, while PASOK was still in power.   But the real bomb shell hit in 2004, when New Democracy came to power, and did a review of the numbers, and found things were much worse than anyone suspected.
> 
> Now you have the option right here to decide whether you accept the reality that everyone who knows what was going on, all agree is the truth, or to instead prove yourself too incompetent to talk to on this forum.
> 
> Which is it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
Click to expand...


Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.

You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> you are simply wrong, it was all over the papers, including the WSJ. when a left-wing party whos name I cant remember probably PASOK, came to power after about 10 years of rt-wing NEW Democracy, THAT is when the debt was revealed.
> 
> I had this argument already with someone else on this board...yes PASOK perhaps had something to do with the run-up in debt some  years ago. BUT it was the left that revealed debt hidden by the center-rt.
> 
> Dont try and change history
> 
> The main arguement of my post however is the mystery as to why Tsipras changed his mind.
> 
> "It is a puzzle why Tsipras would back away from the vote he called for.......you almost got to wonder if his life was threatened by these thug bankers.....or their tools in the the other European governments."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We've tried telling you the truth.  I've posted links to the truth.   I posted several in fact, from various news sources, including the BBC.
> 
> You are in fact wrong.   Just flat out, you are wrong.
> 
> If you can't take the truth, then you have disqualified yourself from this debate.
> 
> Greece debt crisis How did we get here - CNN.com
> 
> In fact, most people agreed that Greece cooked it's books in 2002, while PASOK was still in power.   But the real bomb shell hit in 2004, when New Democracy came to power, and did a review of the numbers, and found things were much worse than anyone suspected.
> 
> Now you have the option right here to decide whether you accept the reality that everyone who knows what was going on, all agree is the truth, or to instead prove yourself too incompetent to talk to on this forum.
> 
> Which is it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.
> 
> You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.
Click to expand...


your wrong,  the Nation just recently had an article outlining the whole thing. A Papandreau(sp?), leftest-establishment  revealed the debt in 2009. I 've forgotten the details but Goldman Sachs came to them as I recall the article.

And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....

The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've tried telling you the truth.  I've posted links to the truth.   I posted several in fact, from various news sources, including the BBC.
> 
> You are in fact wrong.   Just flat out, you are wrong.
> 
> If you can't take the truth, then you have disqualified yourself from this debate.
> 
> Greece debt crisis How did we get here - CNN.com
> 
> In fact, most people agreed that Greece cooked it's books in 2002, while PASOK was still in power.   But the real bomb shell hit in 2004, when New Democracy came to power, and did a review of the numbers, and found things were much worse than anyone suspected.
> 
> Now you have the option right here to decide whether you accept the reality that everyone who knows what was going on, all agree is the truth, or to instead prove yourself too incompetent to talk to on this forum.
> 
> Which is it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.
> 
> You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your wrong,  the Nation just recently had an article outlining the whole thing. A Papandreau(sp?), leftest-establishment  revealed the debt in 2009. I 've forgotten the details but Goldman Sachs came to them as I recall the article.
> 
> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.
Click to expand...


Again........  we've already covered this.

Greece debt crisis timeline Business The Guardian

15 November 2004: Greece admits fudging euro entry
Close scrutiny of Greece's budget figures shows that the country has not actually met the conditions to join the eurozone. Greek government admits that its deficit has never been below 3% since 1999, as EU rules demand.​
This is now the 4th separate independent link to credible local and international sources, that Greece revealed all the fudged numbers back in 2004.

Papandreau was a PASOK left-winger.... but he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know back in 2004.   In fact the whole reason the idiotic Greeks voted in PASOK again, was because the New Democracy in charge after 2004, cut spending to reign in the deficit.... which worked until the world recession hit in 2008.

Again, you already disqualified yourself over and over.    You are not willing to admit universally known facts, that are documented and reported literally everywhere except in your tiny mythical world.

There's no point in us talking about anything else, because if you are just going to make up crap about when the fudged numbers were found, then you'll just make up all the rest of it too.  You have disqualified yourself from the discussion.

Go back to your left-winger fairy tale world.


----------



## Meathead

dcraelin said:


> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.


Tin-foil hat time.

Get yours now!!! ;Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie


----------



## dcraelin

Meathead said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> Tin-foil hat time.
> 
> Get yours now!!! ;Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie
Click to expand...


tee hee


----------



## dcraelin

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.
> 
> You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your wrong,  the Nation just recently had an article outlining the whole thing. A Papandreau(sp?), leftest-establishment  revealed the debt in 2009. I 've forgotten the details but Goldman Sachs came to them as I recall the article.
> 
> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again........  we've already covered this.
> 
> Greece debt crisis timeline Business The Guardian
> 
> 15 November 2004: Greece admits fudging euro entry
> Close scrutiny of Greece's budget figures shows that the country has not actually met the conditions to join the eurozone. Greek government admits that its deficit has never been below 3% since 1999, as EU rules demand.​
> This is now the 4th separate independent link to credible local and international sources, that Greece revealed all the fudged numbers back in 2004.
> 
> Papandreau was a PASOK left-winger.... but he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know back in 2004.   In fact the whole reason the idiotic Greeks voted in PASOK again, was because the New Democracy in charge after 2004, cut spending to reign in the deficit.... which worked until the world recession hit in 2008.
> 
> Again, you already disqualified yourself over and over.    You are not willing to admit universally known facts, that are documented and reported literally everywhere except in your tiny mythical world.
> 
> There's no point in us talking about anything else, because if you are just going to make up crap about when the fudged numbers were found, then you'll just make up all the rest of it too.  You have disqualified yourself from the discussion.
> 
> Go back to your left-winger fairy tale world.
Click to expand...


WEll I appreciate the left-center guardian link, I think the true exposure happened later.......perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry......perhaps it was even more debt revealed. IN the end its a minor point because as in the US the center left and center right are virtual twins.

its a message-board asshole,  im not disqualified from it.  But since that seems to be your sole arguement I disqualify you .

Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _


----------



## Meathead

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.
> 
> You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your wrong,  the Nation just recently had an article outlining the whole thing. A Papandreau(sp?), leftest-establishment  revealed the debt in 2009. I 've forgotten the details but Goldman Sachs came to them as I recall the article.
> 
> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again........  we've already covered this.
> 
> Greece debt crisis timeline Business The Guardian
> 
> 15 November 2004: Greece admits fudging euro entry
> Close scrutiny of Greece's budget figures shows that the country has not actually met the conditions to join the eurozone. Greek government admits that its deficit has never been below 3% since 1999, as EU rules demand.​
> This is now the 4th separate independent link to credible local and international sources, that Greece revealed all the fudged numbers back in 2004.
> 
> Papandreau was a PASOK left-winger.... but he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know back in 2004.   In fact the whole reason the idiotic Greeks voted in PASOK again, was because the New Democracy in charge after 2004, cut spending to reign in the deficit.... which worked until the world recession hit in 2008.
> 
> Again, you already disqualified yourself over and over.    You are not willing to admit universally known facts, that are documented and reported literally everywhere except in your tiny mythical world.
> 
> There's no point in us talking about anything else, because if you are just going to make up crap about when the fudged numbers were found, then you'll just make up all the rest of it too.  You have disqualified yourself from the discussion.
> 
> Go back to your left-winger fairy tale world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WEll I appreciate the left-center guardian link, I think the true exposure happened later.......perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry......perhaps it was even more debt revealed. IN the end its a minor point because as in the US the center left and center right are virtual twins.
> 
> its a message-board asshole,  im not disqualified from it.  But since that seems to be your sole arguement I disqualify you .
> 
> Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _
Click to expand...

You probably think you're being threatened when your mother tells you she's cutting you off and to get a job.


----------



## dcraelin

Meathead said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.
> 
> You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your wrong,  the Nation just recently had an article outlining the whole thing. A Papandreau(sp?), leftest-establishment  revealed the debt in 2009. I 've forgotten the details but Goldman Sachs came to them as I recall the article.
> 
> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again........  we've already covered this.
> 
> Greece debt crisis timeline Business The Guardian
> 
> 15 November 2004: Greece admits fudging euro entry
> Close scrutiny of Greece's budget figures shows that the country has not actually met the conditions to join the eurozone. Greek government admits that its deficit has never been below 3% since 1999, as EU rules demand.​
> This is now the 4th separate independent link to credible local and international sources, that Greece revealed all the fudged numbers back in 2004.
> 
> Papandreau was a PASOK left-winger.... but he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know back in 2004.   In fact the whole reason the idiotic Greeks voted in PASOK again, was because the New Democracy in charge after 2004, cut spending to reign in the deficit.... which worked until the world recession hit in 2008.
> 
> Again, you already disqualified yourself over and over.    You are not willing to admit universally known facts, that are documented and reported literally everywhere except in your tiny mythical world.
> 
> There's no point in us talking about anything else, because if you are just going to make up crap about when the fudged numbers were found, then you'll just make up all the rest of it too.  You have disqualified yourself from the discussion.
> 
> Go back to your left-winger fairy tale world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WEll I appreciate the left-center guardian link, I think the true exposure happened later.......perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry......perhaps it was even more debt revealed. IN the end its a minor point because as in the US the center left and center right are virtual twins.
> 
> its a message-board asshole,  im not disqualified from it.  But since that seems to be your sole arguement I disqualify you .
> 
> Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You probably think you're being threatened when your mother tells you she's cutting you off and to get a job.
Click to expand...


tee hee


----------



## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.
> 
> You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your wrong,  the Nation just recently had an article outlining the whole thing. A Papandreau(sp?), leftest-establishment  revealed the debt in 2009. I 've forgotten the details but Goldman Sachs came to them as I recall the article.
> 
> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again........  we've already covered this.
> 
> Greece debt crisis timeline Business The Guardian
> 
> 15 November 2004: Greece admits fudging euro entry
> Close scrutiny of Greece's budget figures shows that the country has not actually met the conditions to join the eurozone. Greek government admits that its deficit has never been below 3% since 1999, as EU rules demand.​
> This is now the 4th separate independent link to credible local and international sources, that Greece revealed all the fudged numbers back in 2004.
> 
> Papandreau was a PASOK left-winger.... but he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know back in 2004.   In fact the whole reason the idiotic Greeks voted in PASOK again, was because the New Democracy in charge after 2004, cut spending to reign in the deficit.... which worked until the world recession hit in 2008.
> 
> Again, you already disqualified yourself over and over.    You are not willing to admit universally known facts, that are documented and reported literally everywhere except in your tiny mythical world.
> 
> There's no point in us talking about anything else, because if you are just going to make up crap about when the fudged numbers were found, then you'll just make up all the rest of it too.  You have disqualified yourself from the discussion.
> 
> Go back to your left-winger fairy tale world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WEll I appreciate the left-center guardian link, I think the true exposure happened later.......perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry......perhaps it was even more debt revealed. IN the end its a minor point because as in the US the center left and center right are virtual twins.
> 
> its a message-board asshole,  im not disqualified from it.  But since that seems to be your sole arguement I disqualify you .
> 
> Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _
Click to expand...


Nah, you are only worth enough time to tell you that you are not credible anymore, which is why I'm not making any real attempt to respond to your posts.

No matter what anyone says about anything, you'll make up some lame excuse, as to why it's wrong, or doesn't matter, or it's biased or "..... well I think the true exposure happened later....".

When you can't accept even the most trivial of universally accepted facts...   then everyone knows they are wasting their time with a disqualified individual.

Yes, it is an open forum.  So open, you can openly show you are not worth debating with.  And you can stay here posting drivel that we mock and ignore, for as long as you please.   Just like I can respond to each of those posted drivel, with mocking amusement, just for my own personal enjoyment at your expenses..... right up to this very post.

PLease... continue.


----------



## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> ...perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry... Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _



Speculating about G-S's "initiated gimmickry" and Tsipras's motivation may assuage your socialist butthurt but the truth is clear ... no matter how hard you try, that "Worker's Paradise" dream just doesn't work. Greece sold bonds to cover the shortfall between gov't spending and revenues and then TWICE needed BAILOUTS (2010, 2012), first to payoff the bondholders - who took a 50% principal haircut - then to repay the first BAILOUT. They are now at the end of BAILOUT #2 and they need BAILOUT #3 to pay for #2 _and_ current expenses. Can you discern a pattern developing? Greeks desperately want to eat their cake and have it too (wouldn't we all) but adamantly refuse to create the economic engine to pay for it ... other than to demand her EZ partners pay for her party.


----------



## dcraelin

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry... Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculating about G-S's "initiated gimmickry" and Tsipras's motivation may assuage your socialist butthurt but the truth is clear ... no matter how hard you try, that "Worker's Paradise" dream just doesn't work. Greece sold bonds to cover the shortfall between gov't spending and revenues and then TWICE needed BAILOUTS (2010, 2012), first to payoff the bondholders - who took a 50% principal haircut - then to repay the first BAILOUT. They are now at the end of BAILOUT #2 and they need BAILOUT #3 to pay for #2 _and_ current expenses. Can you discern a pattern developing? Greeks desperately want to eat their cake and have it too (wouldn't we all) but adamantly refuse to create the economic engine to pay for it ... other than to demand her EZ partners pay for her party.
Click to expand...


First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.


----------



## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry... Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculating about G-S's "initiated gimmickry" and Tsipras's motivation may assuage your socialist butthurt but the truth is clear ... no matter how hard you try, that "Worker's Paradise" dream just doesn't work. Greece sold bonds to cover the shortfall between gov't spending and revenues and then TWICE needed BAILOUTS (2010, 2012), first to payoff the bondholders - who took a 50% principal haircut - then to repay the first BAILOUT. They are now at the end of BAILOUT #2 and they need BAILOUT #3 to pay for #2 _and_ current expenses. Can you discern a pattern developing? Greeks desperately want to eat their cake and have it too (wouldn't we all) but adamantly refuse to create the economic engine to pay for it ... other than to demand her EZ partners pay for her party.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
Click to expand...


In other words, you admit that you actually know nothing about this Greek Tragedy, are unable to do something as simple as looking it up, but are sure of your "evil banksters," eat-the-rich loony left silliness.
Why am I not surprised.
You should know that as early as January 2010 the Greek Ministry of Finance blamed 6 years of gov't overspending - not "evil banksters" - for their impending financial doom.
So here you go, Princess ... I'll do a little for you but you need to get down off your high and mighty socialist horse and learn something without my help:

"A year later (2011), a worsened recession along with a delayed implementation by the Greek government of the agreed conditions in the bailout programme revealed the need for Greece to receive a second bailout worth €130 billion (including a bank recapitalization package worth €48bn), *while all private creditors holding Greek government bonds were required at the same time to sign a deal accepting extended maturities, lower interest rates, and a 53.5% face value loss*."
Greek government-debt crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## SAYIT

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read in the WSJournal itself that it was the left wing that revealed the numbers...........you and your pal in lying probably cooked up wikipedia lies.......so no I dont believe you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are too incompetent to be debating here.  Nothing else you say matter anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ill take the WSJ even with its idiot editorializers over you any day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing personal, but you have already disqualified yourself from the debate.   You were given numerous sources to choose from, and simply gave excuses.
> 
> You are just not rational enough to debate with, when hard evidence is ignored by you.   Good bye.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your wrong,  the Nation just recently had an article outlining the whole thing. A Papandreau(sp?), leftest-establishment  revealed the debt in 2009. I 've forgotten the details but Goldman Sachs came to them as I recall the article.
> 
> And the major point was WHY? Tsipras accepted a deal just 24 hours after his country rejected it in a vote he campaigned for a no on. .....I think a real possibility is that thugs in banking threatened his life....
> 
> The Nation article tells how Draghi himself was once Goldman-Sachs and had a part in the Greece rip-off, I believe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again........  we've already covered this.
> 
> Greece debt crisis timeline Business The Guardian
> 
> 15 November 2004: Greece admits fudging euro entry
> Close scrutiny of Greece's budget figures shows that the country has not actually met the conditions to join the eurozone. Greek government admits that its deficit has never been below 3% since 1999, as EU rules demand.​
> This is now the 4th separate independent link to credible local and international sources, that Greece revealed all the fudged numbers back in 2004.
> 
> Papandreau was a PASOK left-winger.... but he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know back in 2004.   In fact the whole reason the idiotic Greeks voted in PASOK again, was because the New Democracy in charge after 2004, cut spending to reign in the deficit.... which worked until the world recession hit in 2008.
> 
> Again, you already disqualified yourself over and over.    You are not willing to admit universally known facts, that are documented and reported literally everywhere except in your tiny mythical world.
> 
> There's no point in us talking about anything else, because if you are just going to make up crap about when the fudged numbers were found, then you'll just make up all the rest of it too.  You have disqualified yourself from the discussion.
> 
> Go back to your left-winger fairy tale world.
Click to expand...


In fact, he is not allowed to accept universally known facts that reflect poorly on his anti-capitalist idiotology. To do so would be to admit that Greece is just the latest black eye for his thoroughly discredited "Worker's Paradise" dream.
Living off OPM clearly has limitations and the end is rarely pretty.


----------



## Meathead

dcraelin said:


> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.


You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.


----------



## dcraelin

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry... Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculating about G-S's "initiated gimmickry" and Tsipras's motivation may assuage your socialist butthurt but the truth is clear ... no matter how hard you try, that "Worker's Paradise" dream just doesn't work. Greece sold bonds to cover the shortfall between gov't spending and revenues and then TWICE needed BAILOUTS (2010, 2012), first to payoff the bondholders - who took a 50% principal haircut - then to repay the first BAILOUT. They are now at the end of BAILOUT #2 and they need BAILOUT #3 to pay for #2 _and_ current expenses. Can you discern a pattern developing? Greeks desperately want to eat their cake and have it too (wouldn't we all) but adamantly refuse to create the economic engine to pay for it ... other than to demand her EZ partners pay for her party.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words, you admit that you actually know nothing about this Greek Tragedy, are unable to do something as simple as looking it up, but are sure of your "evil banksters," eat-the-rich loony left silliness.
> Why am I not surprised.
> You should know that as early as January 2010 the Greek Ministry of Finance blamed 6 years of gov't overspending - not "evil banksters" - for their impending financial doom.
> So here you go, Princess ... I'll do a little for you but you need to get down off your high and mighty socialist horse and learn something without my help:
> 
> "A year later (2011), a worsened recession along with a delayed implementation by the Greek government of the agreed conditions in the bailout programme revealed the need for Greece to receive a second bailout worth €130 billion (including a bank recapitalization package worth €48bn), *while all private creditors holding Greek government bonds were required at the same time to sign a deal accepting extended maturities, lower interest rates, and a 53.5% face value loss*."
> Greek government-debt crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


Like I said, despite all your pompous rhetoric. nothing in the Greek crisis proves you main point that socialist policies brought them to that point.....

I care not one wit what some finance minister said, he was most likely in cahoots with the scum banksters. ( a word I dont believe I previously used, which also shows your dishonesty)


----------



## dcraelin

Meathead said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
Click to expand...


your an idiot, even your juvenile asinine icon pic shows that


----------



## SAYIT

Meathead said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
Click to expand...


The monumental lack of knowledge Dcraelin displayed in that post was a tacit admission of ignorance so overwhelming that I fail to detect an ability to recognize (or admit) it.
Typical of a loony leftist.


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## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> SAYIT said:
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> dcraelin said:
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> SAYIT said:
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> 
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> dcraelin said:
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> 
> ...perhaps what the Nation article said was referring to the uncovering of Goldman Sachs initiated gimmickry... Again you have not given a plausible explanation for Tsipras's about face.  I  _think it looks like he was threatened. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculating about G-S's "initiated gimmickry" and Tsipras's motivation may assuage your socialist butthurt but the truth is clear ... no matter how hard you try, that "Worker's Paradise" dream just doesn't work. Greece sold bonds to cover the shortfall between gov't spending and revenues and then TWICE needed BAILOUTS (2010, 2012), first to payoff the bondholders - who took a 50% principal haircut - then to repay the first BAILOUT. They are now at the end of BAILOUT #2 and they need BAILOUT #3 to pay for #2 _and_ current expenses. Can you discern a pattern developing? Greeks desperately want to eat their cake and have it too (wouldn't we all) but adamantly refuse to create the economic engine to pay for it ... other than to demand her EZ partners pay for her party.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words, you admit that you actually know nothing about this Greek Tragedy, are unable to do something as simple as looking it up, but are sure of your "evil banksters," eat-the-rich loony left silliness.
> Why am I not surprised.
> You should know that as early as January 2010 the Greek Ministry of Finance blamed 6 years of gov't overspending - not "evil banksters" - for their impending financial doom.
> So here you go, Princess ... I'll do a little for you but you need to get down off your high and mighty socialist horse and learn something without my help:
> 
> "A year later (2011), a worsened recession along with a delayed implementation by the Greek government of the agreed conditions in the bailout programme revealed the need for Greece to receive a second bailout worth €130 billion (including a bank recapitalization package worth €48bn), *while all private creditors holding Greek government bonds were required at the same time to sign a deal accepting extended maturities, lower interest rates, and a 53.5% face value loss*."
> Greek government-debt crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said, despite all your pompous rhetoric. nothing in the Greek crisis proves you main point that socialist policies brought them to that point.....
> 
> I care not one wit what some finance minister said, he was most likely in cahoots with the scum banksters. ( a word I dont believe I previously used, which also shows your dishonesty)
Click to expand...


Jane, you ignorant slut! (Dan Akroyd, SNL)
That wasn't a statement from a Greek FM but rather the report findings of the Greek Finance Ministry.
You continue to comment on a subject in which you not only are monumentally ignorant but you adamantly refuse even to look at the facts. When recognizing the oncoming financial catastrophe the Greek Finance Ministry also recognized the need to improve competitiveness by reducing salaries and bureaucracy ... actions the gov't then ignored.

Greek government-debt crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> your an idiot, even your juvenile asinine icon pic shows that
Click to expand...



I'll not defend Meathead here but it is certain you do not recognize the obvious ironies in your statement so I'll explain. "Your" should be "You're" and for one such as you to refer to anyone as "idiot" is way too funny.


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## dcraelin

SAYIT said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> your an idiot, even your juvenile asinine icon pic shows that
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'll not defend Meathead here but it is certain you do not recognize the obvious ironies in your statement so I'll explain. "Your" should be "You're" and for one such as you to refer to anyone as "idiot" is way too funny.
Click to expand...


you are a good speller....I ll give you that...you should limit yourself to checking the spellings of posters.

your postings have a very familiar ring to an idiot's on here that I put on ignore, I suspect you are the same person.


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## SAYIT

dcraelin said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> your an idiot, even your juvenile asinine icon pic shows that
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'll not defend Meathead here but it is certain you do not recognize the obvious ironies in your statement so I'll explain. "Your" should be "You're" and for one such as you to refer to anyone as "idiot" is way too funny.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are a good speller....I ll give you that...you should limit yourself to checking the spellings of posters.
> 
> your postings have a very familiar ring to an idiot's on here that I put on ignore, I suspect you are the same person.
Click to expand...


I knew I'd have to explain this.
It's not that you misuse the language, it's that you do so while referring to others as "idiot." Get it now? Before pointing at the splinter in another's eye please remove the idiot log from your own and while I'd hoped the links might encourage you to know something before you post, I had and still have my doubts. You just don't strike me as one who is comfortable going beyond what you think you know.


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## Andylusion

dcraelin said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your an idiot, even your juvenile asinine icon pic shows that
Click to expand...


This coming from the guy, that after a half dozen different links to different mainstream news sources all showing that the numbers fudging, and cooked books, all happened under a left wing government, and was exposed by the right-center government in Greece concludes.... "everyone is lying, and I know it was the right-wingers conservatives that screwed up Greece!  And Goldman Sach!"

You, out of everyone on this thread.... are the absolute least credible to call someone else juvenile and asinine.


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## SAYIT

Andylusion said:


> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your an idiot, even your juvenile asinine icon pic shows that
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This coming from the guy, that after a half dozen different links to different mainstream news sources all showing that the numbers fudging, and cooked books, all happened under a left wing government, and was exposed by the right-center government in Greece concludes.... "everyone is lying, and I know it was the right-wingers conservatives that screwed up Greece!  And Goldman Sach!"
> 
> You, out of everyone on this thread.... are the absolute least credible to call someone else juvenile and asinine.
Click to expand...


He/she does indeed seem to be wedded more to loony left idiotology than to the search for truth and knowledge.
I'm not convinced there are actually anything but leftist parties in Greece. One may be less left than the others and so is given the mantle of "right wing" but they all seem to employ the following leftist methodology:
Ineptocracy - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or even try are rewarded - in exchange for their votes - with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.


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## Andylusion

SAYIT said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcraelin said:
> 
> 
> 
> First I've ever heard about bondholders taking  a 50% haircut...I think you just made that up too, along with most of the rest of your history...........The first Papandreau as I understand it ran on somewhat of a leftist platform...but then reneged on all the promises he made..........PASOK should not be considered socialist.............and the supposed lessons you want to draw from the Greece financial situation are all false.
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far too ignorant on the topic at hand to participate. You don't need to admit it, but at least be mature about it and excuse yourself from this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your an idiot, even your juvenile asinine icon pic shows that
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This coming from the guy, that after a half dozen different links to different mainstream news sources all showing that the numbers fudging, and cooked books, all happened under a left wing government, and was exposed by the right-center government in Greece concludes.... "everyone is lying, and I know it was the right-wingers conservatives that screwed up Greece!  And Goldman Sach!"
> 
> You, out of everyone on this thread.... are the absolute least credible to call someone else juvenile and asinine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He/she does indeed seem to be wedded more to loony left idiotology than to the search for truth and knowledge.
> I'm not convinced there are actually anything but leftist parties in Greece. One may be less left than the others and so is given the mantle of "right wing" but they all seem to employ the following leftist methodology:
> Ineptocracy - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or even try are rewarded - in exchange for their votes - with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
Click to expand...


Well honestly, if I had thought that at the start, I never would have responded to his posts to begin with.   He seemed perfectly reasonable to start with, but now appears absolutely bonkers.

At all started with his mindless claim that magically it was the right-wingers in Greece who fudged the numbers, and it was never disclosed until 2009 or something.    Which even the leftists IN GREECE admit that it was their party that did it.

He's more looney than the looney left at this point.  He's just nut job now.


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