# Shootings in Britain



## 2aguy

But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?

4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....

A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.

The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.









						London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
					

Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm




					www.theguardian.com


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## 2aguy

So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?

A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.

Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.

Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.









						Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
					

Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday




					www.theguardian.com


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## OldLady

2aguy said:


> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.


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## 2aguy

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
Click to expand...



What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....

We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....

Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## JoeB131

Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.


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## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.




In this shooting which gun control law stopped him?   And there was a mass public shooting...in France...not covered by our democrat party press 24/7....


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## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> In this shooting which gun control law stopped him? And there was a mass public shooting...in France...not covered by our democrat party press 24/7....



yeah, we aren't covering non-events when the whole country is burning down...  

(I actually can't find a recent story of a mass shooting in france.  We have mass shootings every day in this country, not one every couple of years.)


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## Tommy Tainant

You have no evidence that any crime is getting worse. In fact the lockdown has led to a reduction in crime. Probably in the US as well.


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## Vagabond63

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
Click to expand...


You mean like the Milwaukee brewery shooting? Legally owned hand guns one with a silencer...









						Milwaukee Miller brewery shooting: Six Molson Coors workers, including shooter, dead in rampage
					

Five Molson Coors employees were shot to death by another employee in Milwaukee, who then killed himself.



					eu.jsonline.com
				




Sorry Old Lady, you fell for his usual stunt that allows him to copy/paste the total BS he posted in post #3; the same BS he posts in every thread he starts. Wait till he starts claimingguns are "flooding" into the UK


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Blah, blah, blah. US leads the world in child gun deaths


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blah, blah, blah. US leads the world in child gun deaths
Click to expand...



We have guns......   and criminals have guns and leave them lying around and their children take them.........

And you assume, as a moron, that your gun deaths are going to stay low as your criminals begin using guns more and more.....that is an ASSumption on your part......

you guys have lived behind the U.S. because of the war, you are now catching up....your criminals are becoming more violent, using guns more often and they don't care who they kill now....


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## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.




And you still can't show where any of this is from the NRA......


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean like the Milwaukee brewery shooting? Legally owned hand guns one with a silencer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Milwaukee Miller brewery shooting: Six Molson Coors workers, including shooter, dead in rampage
> 
> 
> Five Molson Coors employees were shot to death by another employee in Milwaukee, who then killed himself.
> 
> 
> 
> eu.jsonline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Old Lady, you fell for his usual stunt that allows him to copy/paste the total BS he posted in post #3; the same BS he posts in every thread he starts. Wait till he starts claimingguns are "flooding" into the UK
Click to expand...



I don't claim it....the British police stated it.......

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

*Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========


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## Captain Caveman

2aguy said:


> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> I don't claim it....the British police stated it.......


Did they? Point out to me please, where the police said the country was being *flooded* with illegal firearms? Don't confuse a catchy headline with what was actually said.


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## Vagabond63

Captain Caveman said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
Click to expand...

BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject 
"Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.


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## Captain Caveman

Vagabond63 said:


> Captain Caveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject
> "Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
Click to expand...

I've been on American forums for some 5 to 6 years so I'm used to American's gaps in Brit knowledge. But there again, us Brits have gaps in American knowledge and thus probably come across as dickheads. But the good thing is, just as long we all remain civil and learn from one another, all's good.


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## Captain Caveman

2aguy said:


> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



What's the UK laws on guns and what guns can civilians own?


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't claim it....the British police stated it.......
> 
> 
> 
> Did they? Point out to me please, where the police said the country was being *flooded* with illegal firearms? Don't confuse a catchy headline with what was actually said.
Click to expand...



Here....again...and nice dodge.......you guys say that gun control works, this article from the British police say that the supply of illegal guns is rising.....

That means there are more guns entering the country.......


Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

*Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

*Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”*

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========


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## 2aguy

Captain Caveman said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
Click to expand...



The problem you guys have is you seem to think that your gun crime rates are always going to be static ......... the immigrant gangs controlling the drug trade in Britain are going to show you how you really don't understand crime and illegal activity.


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## 2aguy

Yep....British gun control is working as expected.....if criminals want guns, they get guns.   Normal, law abiding British citizens.....they obey those gun control laws...too bad they aren't the ones that need to be stopped....

It used to be that British criminals would use their guns to wound, not kill.....that may be changing...as crime changes over time...becoming more violent when the police can't, or won't do their jobs...

A father in his 20s was shot dead just yards from his doorstep in a leafy London suburb in the early hours of this morning, leaving his family 'devastated'.

Shocked neighbours say they heard a 'single gunshot,' followed by the 'screeching of tyres' just after 1am in a residential road in North Cheam, South West London today.









						Horror in leafy London suburb as man in his 20s is shot dead
					

Armed police were called to a residential road in North Cheam, South West London, at about 1.10am this morning after the victim, a father in his 20s was found with a gunshot wound.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


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## bluzman61

2aguy said:


> Yep....British gun control is working as expected.....if criminals want guns, they get guns.   Normal, law abiding British citizens.....they obey those gun control laws...too bad they aren't the ones that need to be stopped....
> 
> It used to be that British criminals would use their guns to wound, not kill.....that may be changing...as crime changes over time...becoming more violent when the police can't, or won't do their jobs...
> 
> A father in his 20s was shot dead just yards from his doorstep in a leafy London suburb in the early hours of this morning, leaving his family 'devastated'.
> 
> Shocked neighbours say they heard a 'single gunshot,' followed by the 'screeching of tyres' just after 1am in a residential road in North Cheam, South West London today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horror in leafy London suburb as man in his 20s is shot dead
> 
> 
> Armed police were called to a residential road in North Cheam, South West London, at about 1.10am this morning after the victim, a father in his 20s was found with a gunshot wound.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


So sad to see this.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Here....again...and nice dodge.......you guys say that gun control works, this article from the British police say that the supply of illegal guns is rising.....
> 
> That means there are more guns entering the country.......



So if every British citizen owned a gun, this would prevent criminals obtaining guns how? 

If anything it would make it easier for criminal to arm themselves. At no point has anyone ever claimed that gun control works perfectly. Every time any government anywhere makes a commodity Illegal, there will be those who will smuggle that commodity if there is a market for it. Once upon a time, America banned alcohol, that worked out well for you didn't it?

Gun control works. Our gun death rate is a tiny fraction of yours, however you chose to measure it; so is Australia's and New Zealand's where they have comparable controls.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> The problem you guys have is you seem to think that your gun crime rates are always going to be static



Who says we do? Gun crime rates fluctuate over time, but overall, gun crime in the UK has been declining for decades as trends go. Drug gangs use guns against each other, not their potential "customers"; either to deter or eliminate their rivals. A cynic might argue, let them get on with it, they might kill each other off and solve the problem that way.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> We have guns...... and criminals have guns and leave them lying around and their children take them.........


Are you seriously suggesting only criminals leave guns lying aroung for their children to take? Seriously?


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> your criminals are becoming more violent, using guns more often and they don't care who they kill now....


Mmm, not so much when looked at over time. The recent rise has many causes, largely as a result of successive Conservative government policies.









						Crime figures: Violent crime recorded by police rises by 19%
					

The number of homicides - including murder and manslaughter - also rose by 14%.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Arming the general population, however, is not the answer and would only make matters worse.


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## Oz and the Orchestra

2aguy said:


> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


The UK actually has one of the lowest rates of murder committed by firearms in the entire world.  
Which Guns are Legal in the UK? - Southdown Gun Club 

In the United Kingdom, access by the general public to firearms is subject to some of the strictest control measures in the world.
Wikipedia.

Practically all gun crime is committed by criminals with illegal weapons either re-calibrated or smuggled in.


----------



## Captain Caveman

2aguy said:


> Captain Caveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The problem you guys have is you seem to think that your gun crime rates are always going to be static ......... the immigrant gangs controlling the drug trade in Britain are going to show you how you really don't understand crime and illegal activity.
Click to expand...


No, crime is getting worse, never denied that, but, some 75% of crime is committed by immigrants (scum from Europe) and alot of crime is between these immigrants.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem you guys have is you seem to think that your gun crime rates are always going to be static
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who says we do? Gun crime rates fluctuate over time, but overall, gun crime in the UK has been declining for decades as trends go. Drug gangs use guns against each other, not their potential "customers"; either to deter or eliminate their rivals. A cynic might argue, let them get on with it, they might kill each other off and solve the problem that way.
Click to expand...


And that is the same here.......our criminals murder other criminals......meanwhile, 18.2 million Americans own and carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate did not go up, it went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%......so normal people who not only own guns but carry them do not create more gun crime or more crime in general......


----------



## EvilCat Breath

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
Click to expand...

If the decent people of Seattle all had guns, chop would have had a different outcome.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here....again...and nice dodge.......you guys say that gun control works, this article from the British police say that the supply of illegal guns is rising.....
> 
> That means there are more guns entering the country.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if every British citizen owned a gun, this would prevent criminals obtaining guns how?
> 
> If anything it would make it easier for criminal to arm themselves. At no point has anyone ever claimed that gun control works perfectly. Every time any government anywhere makes a commodity Illegal, there will be those who will smuggle that commodity if there is a market for it. Once upon a time, America banned alcohol, that worked out well for you didn't it?
> 
> Gun control works. Our gun death rate is a tiny fraction of yours, however you chose to measure it; so is Australia's and New Zealand's where they have comparable controls.
Click to expand...



And as America shows......more people owning and even carrying guns does not increase the gun murder or gun crime rate.....so what you feel about the issue is just wrong.

In the United States....as more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime rate went down 75%.....75% can you understand that number?  Our gun murder rate went down 49%....our violent crime rate went down 72%....so guns do not cause more crime....more guns do not cause more gun crime...you just don't understand what you are talking about.


What drives crime rates up?   Political policies that put violent, repeat gun offenders back on the street with reduced sentences, short sentences, no bail release.....that drives the crime rate.   And when politicians focus on guns instead of criminals, the crime rates go up, not down.......

Gun control doesn't work.....you have simply been living in a homogenous society with a culture that has deeply ingrained respect for your betters........namely government and its institutions.....but you have imported immigrants who do not share your values and who don't care about your history, so they are the ones murdering each other in your streets over drug turf.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> your criminals are becoming more violent, using guns more often and they don't care who they kill now....
> 
> 
> 
> Mmm, not so much when looked at over time. The recent rise has many causes, largely as a result of successive Conservative government policies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crime figures: Violent crime recorded by police rises by 19%
> 
> 
> The number of homicides - including murder and manslaughter - also rose by 14%.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arming the general population, however, is not the answer and would only make matters worse.
Click to expand...



Except the United States proves you wrong....and you are going to find out how wrong you are as your criminals become more violent...

Again....as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%......

How do you explain that with your theory?

Our gun murder rate went down 49%....you can't explain that with your theory....

Our violent crime rate went down 72%...... your can't explain that with your theory.....

Your theory falls apart as more people own and carry guns....

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
-----

Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
=============

Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously

In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:


> _Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime._


Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.

After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
-------

Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:


> _César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office._


The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:


> _Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday._


When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have guns...... and criminals have guns and leave them lying around and their children take them.........
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting only criminals leave guns lying aroung for their children to take? Seriously?
Click to expand...



The vast majority of accidental gun deaths among children happen in the homes of criminals, not law abiding gun owners.

A total of 54 children were accidentally killed by guns in 2018......out of over 70 million children........and the majority of those killed lived with criminals, alcoholics or drug users.

By year...from the Centers for Disease Control...

*WISQARS Leading Causes of Death Reports

Kids <1-14...

2018....54
2017...62
2016...74
2015...48*
2014...50
2013...69
2012...58
2011...74
2010...62
2009...48
2008...62
2007...65
2006...54
2005...75
2004...63
2003...56
2002...60
2001...72
2000...86
1999...88


----------



## Coyote

Gun violence death rates:
US 4.43
UK 0.06

Seems the U.K. is doing something right.


----------



## 2aguy

Coyote said:


> Gun violence death rates:
> US 4.43
> UK 0.06
> 
> Seems the U.K. is doing something right.




And you guys never address the truth......Britain had low gun death rates before they banned their guns....so the gun ban did nothing to their gun crime rates....except now they are going up...after the ban...


Meanwhile, you can't and won't explain how it is, under your theory.....that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%......

Both points show that gun ownership by normal people does not increase the gun crime rate..........you can't explain that.


----------



## Sun Devil 92

Coyote said:


> Gun violence death rates:
> US 4.43
> UK 0.06
> 
> Seems the U.K. is doing something right.



What is the U.S if you take out black on black ?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> The vast majority of accidental gun deaths among children happen in the homes of criminals, not law abiding gun owners.
> 
> A total of 54 children were accidentally killed by guns in 2018......out of over 70 million children........and the majority of those killed lived with criminals, alcoholics or drug users.
> 
> By year...from the Centers for Disease Control...
> 
> *WISQARS Leading Causes of Death Reports
> 
> Kids <1-14...
> 
> 2018....54
> 2017...62
> 2016...74
> 2015...48*
> 2014...50
> 2013...69
> 2012...58
> 2011...74
> 2010...62
> 2009...48
> 2008...62
> 2007...65
> 2006...54
> 2005...75
> 2004...63
> 2003...56
> 2002...60
> 2001...72
> 2000...86
> 1999...88


Wow. 
That's 54 children that would still be alive if there were no guns left lying around, 54 famillies would not be grieving over the loss of a loved one. What I find disturbing is that you seem to believe that 54 dead children is acceptable for a so called, "civilised" society. It's interesting reading when you look at child homicides involving firearms; in 2018 from your source, 57 5-9 year old children were murdered with guns. Fat lot of use your "good guy with a gun" theory was there.


----------



## harmonica

leafy???  leafy??  hahahahhahahahahahahah


----------



## harmonica

Coyote said:


> Gun violence death rates:
> US 4.43
> UK 0.06
> 
> Seems the U.K. is doing something right.


ditto


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Wow.
> That's 54 children that would still be alive if there were no guns left lying around, 54 famillies would not be grieving over the loss of a loved one. What I find disturbing is that you seem to believe that 54 dead children is acceptable for a so called, "civilised" society. It's interesting reading when you look at child homicides involving firearms; in 2018 from your source, 57 5-9 year old children were murdered with guns. Fat lot of use your "good guy with a gun" theory was there.




Who said it was acceptable. you dumb ass.......

There are 600 million guns in private hands, over 18.2 million people carry guns for self defense.........and 70 million children in the United States....

Meanwhile, 1.2 million Americans use their legal guns to save lives, and to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders....you doofus....

And here is the actual perspective....and instead of using your emotional black mail, we will look at truth, facts and reality...

1.2 million Americans use their legal guns to save lives....

Meanwhile....from the CDC accidental deaths of children....


Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

*2018......

Guns......54*

Motor vehicle..... 2,456

Suffocation:  1,162

*Drowning: 698

Poisoning:  66

Guns: 54



Under age drinking:*

Underage Drinking-Why Do Adolescents  Drink, What Are the Risks, and How Can Underage Drinking Be Prevented?

Each year, approximately 5,000 young people under the age of 21 die as a result of underage drinking; this includes about 1,900 deaths from motor vehicle crashes, 1,600 as a result of homicides, 300 from suicide, as well as hundreds from other injuries such as falls, burns, and drownings (1–5).

So.....before you start trying to say you care about children, how about caring about all the other ways children die in accidents......in vastly greater numbers than by gun accident...you doofus.....

Meanwhile, think about all the lives saved by normal people who own and carry guns......1.2 million defensive gun uses on average every year, where lives are saved from rape, robbery and murder.........lives you would sacrifice by banning guns for normal people...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Wow.
> That's 54 children that would still be alive if there were no guns left lying around, 54 famillies would not be grieving over the loss of a loved one. What I find disturbing is that you seem to believe that 54 dead children is acceptable for a so called, "civilised" society. It's interesting reading when you look at child homicides involving firearms; in 2018 from your source, 57 5-9 year old children were murdered with guns. Fat lot of use your "good guy with a gun" theory was there.




So.....good guys murdered those children? You ignorant doofus..........those children were killed by criminals with illegal guns.......after being released over and over again back into the public by the policies of the democrat party who control our major gun murder zones......they release violent criminals, who go on to get illegal guns, and they murder people....when they should have been in prison...

That is a problem not with guns and legal gun owners but with left wing politicians who keep releasing violent criminals over and over again.....

Don't worry......you are going to see this phenomena in Britain........your left wing politicians can't wait to keep releasing your violent drug gangs over and over again....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> And here is the actual perspective....and instead of using your emotional black mail, we will look at truth, facts and reality...



Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.



2aguy said:


> 1.2 million Americans use their legal guns to save lives....



No they don't. This is not a *fact*, but an *extrapolation* based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.



2aguy said:


> So.....good guys murdered those children?



Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.



2aguy said:


> those children were killed by criminals with illegal guns.......



How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.

Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> So.....before you start trying to say you care about children, how about caring about all the other ways children die in accidents......in vastly greater numbers than by gun accident...you doofus.....


We're talking about guns, not cars. Clearly you don't think that even one child's life saved matters, hey it's only 54 children, what's that compared to all the guns I can have.


----------



## Vagabond63

Meanwhile in Kansas (albeit in 2017).
Can someone explain how a diveby or targeted assassination could have been prevented if everyone had a gun? The target would be dead or wounded long before anyone with a gun could react to what was happening and the car or bike would be long gone by the time they'd drawn their weapon and acquired a target. Normal people going about their daily lives tend not to have combat reflexes.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't. This is not a *fact*, but an *extrapolation* based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.
> 
> Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?




Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.   In fact, it is only one of about 17 studies on the topic.....so you don't know what you are talking about.

The research...including the CDC under barak obama, and the Department of Justice under bill clinton........

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


----------



## Andylusion

Vagabond63 said:


> Blah, blah, blah. US leads the world in child gun deaths



Which changes nothing of what he said.

Gun control hasn't stopped the rise of gun crime in the UK.

And the UK had lower gun crime, before they enacted all their gun control laws.

The reason we lead the world in gun deaths, is because you attack police officers, who then allow more crime.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't. This is not a *fact*, but an *extrapolation* based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.
> 
> Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?




We have massive gun control laws in this country you doofus..... when the father of the children who are accidentally killed are criminals and they have a gun in the home as a convicted criminals, it is an illegal gun....since criminals in this country can't buy, own or carry guns...you doofus.

And no, anyone with a gun is no law abiding until they use it...not even in your pathetic excuse for a country..........

You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to crime and guns...that is why your posts are so stupid...

Normal, law abiding people are not using their guns for crime......you idiot.

The Criminology of Firearms

In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

*Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.*

*While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — 

exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> We're talking about guns, not cars. Clearly you don't think that even one child's life saved matters, hey it's only 54 children, what's that compared to all the guns I can have.




Compared to 1.2 million times guns are used by law abiding citizens to save lives...you doofus....and you don't seem to care about any of the other ways children die in accidents...which are all deadlier than guns.........

Guns save more lives in America than they are used by criminals to kill, you doofus....

According to your logic, then, since cars kill killed 2,456, then we need to ban cars...since they are far deadlier to children than guns are..........that is how stupid your post is.....

Do you understand that 2,456 is a bigger number than 54?  So now you must insist we ban cars?  You dumb ass.

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

*2018......

Guns......54*

Motor vehicle..... 2,456


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't. This is not a *fact*, but an *extrapolation* based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.
> 
> Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?




Here....more information on actual criminals...

Public Health Pot Shots

this article goes at kellerman extensively and his crap research.....and here is some work on who actually kills people...


These and other studies funded by the CDC focus on the presence or absence of guns, rather than the characteristics of the people who use them. Indeed, the CDC's Rosenberg claims in the journal_Educational Horizons_ that murderers are "ourselves--ordinary citizens, professionals, even health care workers": people who kill only because a gun happens to be available. Yet if there is one fact that has been incontestably established by homicide studies, it's that murderers are not ordinary gun owners but extreme aberrants whose life histories include drug abuse, serious accidents, felonies, and irrational violence. 

*Unlike "ourselves," roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have significant criminal records, averaging an adult criminal career of six or more years with four major felonies.*
Access to juvenile records would almost certainly show that the criminal careers of murderers stretch back into their adolescence. In _Murder in America_ (1994), the criminologists Ronald W. Holmes and Stephen T. Holmes report that murderers generally "have histories of committing personal violence in childhood, against other children, siblings, and small animals." Murderers who don't have criminal records usually have histories of psychiatric treatment or domestic violence that did not lead to arrest.
Contrary to the impression fostered by Rosenberg and other opponents of gun ownership, the term "acquaintance homicide" does not mean killings that stem from ordinary family or neighborhood arguments. Typical acquaintance homicides include: an abusive man eventually killing a woman he has repeatedly assaulted; a drug user killing a dealer (or vice versa) in a robbery attempt; and gang members, drug dealers, and other criminals killing each other for reasons of economic rivalry or personal pique.

 According to a 1993 article in the _Journal of Trauma_, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history."
 A 1994 article in _The New England Journal of Medicine_reported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.

-------

*As the English gun control analyst Colin Greenwood has noted, in any society there are always enough guns available, legally or illegally, to arm the violent. The true determinant of violence is the number of violent people, not the availability of a particular weapon. *


*Guns contribute to murder in the trivial sense that they help violent people kill. But owning guns does not turn responsible, law-abiding people into killers. *


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in Kansas (albeit in 2017).
> Can someone explain how a diveby or targeted assassination could have been prevented if everyone had a gun? The target would be dead or wounded long before anyone with a gun could react to what was happening and the car or bike would be long gone by the time they'd drawn their weapon and acquired a target. Normal people going about their daily lives tend not to have combat reflexes.




Are you really this stupid......?   The CDC research points out that Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop violent crime......we have 320 million people in this country, and as more Americans since 1993 have owned and actually carried guns, our gun crime rate has gone down 75%......you can't explain that.....our gun murder rate has gone down 49%....you can't explain that....

Normal people stop violent criminals in this country.........I have the list of stories of lives saved when normal people have access to guns....you twit.

CCW Witness to Fatal Stabbing Holds Red-Handed Attacker at Gunpoint [VIDEO] - The Truth About Guns

*The woman, 28-year-old Gabrielle Garcia, was with their five-year-old son at the time and had a standing no-contact order against the father. In full view of his own child as well as many witnesses, the man stabbed Garcia repeatedly, inflicting fatal injuries.*

The man, identified as 29-year-old David Lee Morris, then walked out of the Seattle Center Armory (an indoor dining area) and into the street, still holding the knife and covered in blood. There, he was met by Scott Brown, who works at Skillet restaurant in Seattle Center. It was Brown’s day off, and he was dropping by to say hi to friends.

*“I have a concealed weapons license,” said Brown. “[Morris] was just walking away calmly… I got next to him and I pulled out my gun and stepped in front of him. As soon as he saw that I had a firearm, he started trying to convince me to shoot him. He just kept trying to convince me to shoot him, and I didn’t want to shoot him.”*

Brown did not end up having to shoot Morris (although, based on the video and witness reports, he would have had ample justification).

“Both of his hands were bloody… He was just walking toward the man with the gun,” said Eric DeAngelo, a bystander who recorded a video of the full takedown (see below). “Kept walking toward him. I don’t know what his intention was.”

Morris continued walking toward Brown, asking him to kill him, while Brown kept walking backwards, keeping Morris in his sights for several long minutes.

“I just kept trying to get him to put down the knife,” Brown recalled, “and we kept walking backwards and backwards and backwards. Way too long. I kept looking around for police, security… the point was to hold his focus. There were people everywhere.”

At last, another bystander helped subdue Morris with pepper spray until police arrived and took control. In DeAngelo’s video (around 1:45), you can see Brown looking visibly relieved as he finally puts down his gun.


5/18/18

Father Attacked at McDonald's While Holding Infant Daughter, Shoots One of Four Suspects

*A father who was attacked in Memphis, Tennessee, McDonald’s while holding his infant daughter was able to get his gun and open fire, wounding one of the four attackers.*
WREG quotes police saying “four suspects attempted to rob the victim at the McDonald’s in the 1400 block of South Trezevant near Lamar and Airways.” A witness described a scene in which the suspects tried to catch the father while he was too busy to fight back.

Witness David Chase said, “They jumped out of the car and they started fighting him and trying to take his wallet and stuff.” He added, “He was fighting them. He dropped his baby and started fighting them and the child was just sitting on the concrete.”

Chase then heard gunshots rang out and the suspects fled the scene. It was later learned that the father had managed to get to his gun and fire the shots, wounding one of the suspects.

*ActionNews5 reports that the wounded suspect “showed up later at a nearby fire department” for treatment. His was taken to a hospital in “non-critical condition.”
========*

4/5/18

Armed South Carolina Woman Chases Off Daytime Home Invader - The Truth About Guns

When Ms. Reeves ran across Ralph Goss slithering around inside her home yesterday in the middle of the afternoon, she drew her firearm. Staring down that barrel was enough to change Goss’s mind about whatever it was he had planned.

“I’m one of those people that can go from zero to a hundred in 2.5 seconds and I’m not a nice person normally, but as soon as I got on the phone with the sheriff’s department he was out of sight. The severity of it hit me, and I was in hysterics. I was crying, I was scared, I was very shaken.”

Oconee County deputies tracked Goss down within hours of Ms. Reeves’ call. And surprise! He already had several outstanding warrants for his arrest.
===============

3/28/17

CWB Chicago: River North: Motorist With Concealed-Carry Saves Victim From 3-On-1 Beat-Down And Robbery

An armed suburban man with a concealed-carry license intervened in a 3-on-1 beating and robbery in River North yesterday evening, according to a witness and police.

The victim was in the 700 block of North Clark around 8:30 p.m. when three offenders wearing white surgical masks attacked him and began taking his property, police said.

A passing motorist who saw the robbery unfold pulled over, unholstered his concealed firearm and intervened in the attack. The three offenders fled westbound on Chicago Avenue as the concealed-carry holder protected the victim, according to a witness.

The driver, who lives in Mt. Prospect, returned to his vehicle and drove away after stabilizing the situation, a witness reported.

The victim lost his phone to the robbers who were described as two black men and one black woman wearing surgical masks. One of the offenders wore a red jacket and the others wore dark clothing.
==================

Not charged for self defense shooting..

Milwaukee concealed carrier who killed carjacker acted in self defense

Milwaukee authorities decided not to press charges against the 24-year-old man who shot and killed a carjacker last month, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.

Prosecutors said the man, whose name has not been released, “lawfully acted in self defense” when he killed Carlos D. Martin, 21.

Martin, armed with a gun, tried to carjack the victim who was heading into work around 6 am on Feb. 26, according to a police statement. But the victim opened fire, striking and killing Martin.

The victim, who has a valid concealed carry license, remained on scene and cooperated with police. Martin was a felon and legally barred from possessing a gun.

*“Before the summer starts, this should be a warning,” said Milwaukee police Capt. Andra Williams at a press conference last month. “This should be a wake-up call to everyone in the community that this is not a game.”*


2/24/18

Video of shooting...

‘Not Going To Be Victims’: Watch Mother-Daughter Pair Use Guns To Defend Liquor Store

======

2/20/18

Good Guy With A Gun Saves Mother And Daughter Who Were Being Attacked

Law enforcement officials in New Mexico are praising a man who stepped in to save a mother and her daughter after the woman’s estranged husband rammed her car and began shooting at them.

Albuquerque Police say that 66-year-old Qian Ming intentionally crashed into the woman’s vehicle on Sunday and then opened fire, hitting his daughter in the shoulder, KRQE News 13reported.

Officer Simon Drobik says that a 34-year-old good Samaritan, who is not being named since he has not been charged with a crime, saw the attack unfold and intervened.

“Once he started walking up, he saw that there was a male violently pistol-whipping a female in the street,” Drobik said. “He got out of his vehicle and had his firearm on him and told that male to stop.”

Upon telling Ming to stop, the good Samaritan told police that he pointed the gun in his direction and that’s when he opened fire on Ming, hitting and killing him.

“Mom in the hospital said, ‘He saved our lives’,” Drobik continued. “You can’t get a stronger statement than that. So she knew it. Daughter knows it and good thing he took that type of action.”
=============

2/19/18


Homeowner shoots at drive-by suspects, killing 2

Two people are dead and one is in the hospital after a homeowner fired back during a shooting in North Houston.

Investigators say early Saturday morning a suspect vehicle drove up to the homeowner's house on Glenburnie Drive and started shooting.

The homeowner was outside at the time and he hid behind a bush in the yard and returned fire. Officers say more than 40 shots were fired in the exchange.
============


'He was crazed,' said driver caught in deadly highway shooting in Fridley

The man who rammed into the back of Irvine Doyle’s truck repeatedly stabbed at his driver’s-side window with a six-inch blade knife, all the time yelling and ranting.

That’s when Doyle saw another man approach with a gun, pointing it down toward the ground, telling the man with the knife to calm down.

“I said, ‘Thank God somebody’s here because the cops aren’t here yet,” Doyle recalled.


In an interview Friday, Doyle filled out the picture of the chaotic scene on Hwy. 65 near Medtronic Parkway on Wednesday after Simon Schiffler, 33, of Williston, N.D., set off a chain-reaction crash at a red light.

Schiffler, the man with the knife, was beyond erratic, Doyle said.



The man with gun told Schiffler to relax, Doyle said. Instead, Schiffler charged, “his knife flailing,” Doyle said.

Three shots rang out and Schiffler dropped to the ground, bleeding, Doyle said. Schiffler was taken to Hennepin County Medical Center, where he died.

A family is likely grieving over his death, Doyle said. But he and others feared for their lives.




=================



======2/9/18

Armed Robbers Walked Into A Store — Then Cashier Pulled Out His Pistol And Showed Them The Door

he video shows the two men approach the cashier and point a rifle straight in his face. Not missing a beat, the cashier draws his own weapon and shoots at the two men. It’s unclear if he hits anyone.
The criminals flee the scene, dropping their gun as they run outside. Police then say the criminals drove away in a silver vehicle.
=========
2/3/18

Concealed Carry holder holds robbery suspect at gunpoint

A Grayson County man is behind bars after allegedly breaking into a residence in Edmonson County.

The Edmonson County Sheriff's Office says 20-year-old Robert Hunt was held at gunpoint by the homeowner until deputies arrived to the house on E.G. Nash Road.

The homeowner was a Concealed/Carry Deadly Weapons permit holder according to a sheriff's deputy that says in situations like that, it's important to alert police to ensure everyone's safety.

"Once you call police, if you're actually going to hold that suspect at gun point you need to let dispatch know. Go ahead and give a description of yourself, so we know once we get on scene who the actual conceal carry holder is and who actualy is the suspect," said Deputy Jordan Jones with the Edmonson County Sheriff's Office.
============

1/14/18

Gun-carrying customers at SC dealership held attacker at gunpoint until cops arrived

A pair of customers legally carrying guns held a pipe-wielding attacker at bay at a York County car dealership until police arrived in a December incident where the suspect threatened to kill dealership employees, prosecutors said in court Friday.

Alonzo Seegars, upset with service at Stateline car dealership on Gold Hill Road in Fort Mill on Dec. 21, arrived armed with a pipe wrench, said Aaron Hayes, 16th Circuit assistant solicitor. Seegars told a service employee, “I know who you are and you are a dead man,” then “threatened to kill” a female employee, Hayes said.

Seegars then shouted out “Watch this!” as he smashed at least three vehicles with the pipe wrench, Hayes said.

Two customers, whom prosecutors said had legal concealed carry permits and were armed legally at the time, intervened and “held Mr. Seegars at bay” with the handguns at the crowded dealership until police arrived, Hayes said. York County deputies tackled Seegars after using an electric stun gun. Seegars suffered a broken leg in the scuffle.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in Kansas (albeit in 2017).
> Can someone explain how a diveby or targeted assassination could have been prevented if everyone had a gun? The target would be dead or wounded long before anyone with a gun could react to what was happening and the car or bike would be long gone by the time they'd drawn their weapon and acquired a target. Normal people going about their daily lives tend not to have combat reflexes.




More stories of men, women and even children using guns to save lives....they are not Navy SEALs and yet they managed to stop violent criminals from rape, robbery and murder....



> 12/24/17
> 'I had to take care of things': Gun-wielding Texas mother scares off intruder
> The family does not want to be identified, but wanted to share the story in hope that awareness can help in similar situations.
> 
> The mother was at home with the family's 3-month-old daughter Thursday night. Her husband was out of town working, but was coming home Friday to celebrate the first Christmas with their daughter.
> 
> After tossing and turning in bed for a while, the mother was not able to fall asleep and went to the living room around 11:30 p.m.
> 
> About an hour later, she heard the home alarm beep and her back door open.
> 
> Her instinct kicked in.
> 
> "I froze for a second and then I realized I needed to spring into action, I mean, I had my baby in the house. I was alone. My husband was away on business, so I had to take care of things," she said.
> 
> She grabbed a gun and went towards the back door, where she found a man standing in her kitchen.
> 
> She yelled at the man while pointing the gun at him, and her dog ran towards him, scaring him out of the back door.
> 
> She locked the door and called 911.
> ================
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/22/suspect-puts-gun-mans-head-gets-shot/
> 
> *A suspect put a gun to a man’s head on Thursday only to flee under a barrage of bullets after the would-be victim pulled his own gun and opened fire.*
> The incident occurred in Philadelphia’s West Oak Lane.
> According to 6 ABC, Rahkeim Kelly was “headed home from buying a soda” when the suspect in a hoodie approached and put a gun to his head. Kelly managed to move away quickly, take cover behind a car, draw his own gun, and open fire.
> The suspect, 22-year-old Osirus Lester, fled the scene.
> Kelly said, “I fired two shots first, then he tried to take off running. I fired one more, then he ended up dropping the gun. He ran off and I just went and secured the weapon.”
> Lester was arrested within minutes with a gunshot wound to his wrist.
> Philadelphia Police Capt. Sekou Kinnebrew said, “[Kelly] does have a valid permit to carry. We checked that out. He’s the victim of a robbery. He did attempt to retreat, taking cover behind a car. But the offender continued to aggress, and (the victim) had to defend himself.”
> =====================
> 
> 
> 11/25/17
> 
> Auto shop employees credited with taking down accused Rockledge gunman
> 
> ROCKLEDGE — A man armed with a .45-caliber handgun and a lot of ammunition wandered onto an auto repair shop property and began firing in the parking lot Friday afternoon, police said.
> 
> The gunman killed one employee and paralyzed a second. That's when the employees at Schlenker Automotive fought back with equal force, Rockledge police chief Joseph La Sata said.
> 
> "The manager, who was a concealed weapons permit holder, came out and engaged in gunfire in the parking lot," La Sata said. "The manager fled back inside the building, being chased by the gunman. Another Schlenker employee, who also had concealed weapons permit, engaged in gunfire with the suspect."
> 
> Police said the suspect in the homicide is Robert Lorenzo Bailey Jr., 28, of Cocoa. He was shot twice and was in critical condition at Health First's Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne. Officers are keeping him under watch.
> ===================
> 11/15/17
> 
> http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/good-guy-gun-stops-sex-assault-hiking-trail
> 
> According to The Blaze, Josh Williams, 39, nearly left his handgun at home when heading out to the hiking trail on a dark morning back in September, but he felt the nagging sensation that he should take it anyway. That turned out to be the right call because while on the trail at 5:30 a.m., Williams heard a woman scream loud enough to get past his music-blaring earbuds.
> In the darkness, Williams shined his flashlight and discovered a woman being sexually assaulted and approached the perpetrator.
> “I came up, pulled my gun and told him to get off of her,” Williams recalled. He then asked the man to get on his knees and asked to see his hands: “That way I knew he didn’t have a weapon. And at that point he was no threat, so I didn’t feel the need to shoot him.”
> The perp ran away but thanks to a good description from both the victim and Williams, police were able to later apprehend 22-year-old Richard McEachern and charge him with sexual assault.
> The victim was very glad Williams decided to carry that day and used a gun to save her from a dangerous situation. That was the first time Williams ever pointed his weapon at another person, but it confirmed for him the importance of the Second Amendment:
> 
> 
> 
> “It’s dark, and I don’t know what’s out there, so I have it to protect myself and other people. That’s what it’s all about anyway — to help other people with it, not just myself.
> “I didn’t think I’d ever have to pull it. Did I want to? No, not at all. But just … right place, right time.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ====================
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 11/11/17
> 
> 81-year-old homeowner fatally shoots armed robber
> 
> A suspect was shot and killed when he tried to rob an 81-year-old man at gunpoint outside of the man’s home in Genoa, Arkansas, on Thursday afternoon.
> 
> Buddy Cates told KSLA that he walked outside of his home around 1:30 p.m. and came face to face with the suspect, who authorities are still working to identify.
> 
> Cates said the suspect was holding a “big pistol,” but Cates also had his hand in his pocket, gripping his own gun.
> 
> “The battle was one,” Cates recalled, noting that, between the two, at least a dozen shots were fired.
> 
> “Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done,” Cates said. “In this case, it was me.”
> 
> Cates was uninjured, but the suspect died after he was taken to a hospital in Texarkana, not far from Cates’ home.
> 
> After the attempted robbery and subsequent shooting, three women were arrested in connection to the crime, according to reports from the Texarkana Gazette. Kiana Keshaun Montgomery, 21; Shaynesha Martin, 19; and Ke’Erica Turner, 20, are all facing charges for aggravated robbery and are being held at the Miller County Detention Center. Authorities did not say what part the women played in the robbery or whether they are believed to be responsible for other crimes.
> 
> 
> 11/4/17
> 
> Walmart shooting, where good guys didn't shoot
> 
> 
> Colorado Walmart's Armed Innocents Hampered Police. Or Not. - The Truth About Guns
> 
> First, the police weren’t on scene when the killer fired his gun; they arrived _after_ the perp had escaped. Second, the armed good guys didn’t shoot other armed good guys (no shots were fired by anyone other than the bad guy). And third, other reports indicate that the killer scarpered _after_ he caught sight of armed opposition.
> 
> Given these facts one could easily argue that armed defenders prevented greater loss of life. And that all the anti-gun rights hysteria about the presence of armed innocents making\ cops’ jobs harder is a bunch of horsesh*t. I mean, how exactly did these armed Americans _threaten_ public safety?
> 
> ------
> 
> Nine-point-nine times out of ten, the police are _not_ the first responders to an act of violence. The innocent people being attacked are the first responders. The idea that they should be disarmed to make it easier for armed police to respond — most often after the fact — is to say that it’s OK to sacrifice innocent life on the altar of imagined efficiency. It isn’t.
> 
> Besides, as National Association for Gun Rights Prez Dudley Brown told the _Times,_ “In that situation, what are people supposed to do? Lay down on the floor and draw chalk marks around themselves?”
> 
> 11/1/17
> 
> 
> Dallas Homeowner's Story Proves Why Private Citizens Need Guns
> 
> For one Dallas homeowner, however, the nightmare became reality.
> 
> A man that police believe intended to rob a Lake Highlands home was shot early Monday morning.
> 
> It happened in the 9500 block of Moss Farm Lane near Abrams Road and Royal Lane.
> 
> _The homeowner said the man first rang his doorbell around 5 a.m. He apologized for being at the wrong home and left.
> 
> A few minutes later the man came back, kicked in the door and forced his way inside. But the homeowner had a gun and opened fire, police said.
> 
> Neighbors said they heard about a half a dozen shots. When responding officers arrived they found the wounded suspect in the street. The suspect was taken to the hospital in critical condition. He is expected to survive, police said._
> 
> The homeowner and his wife were reportedly unhurt and are cooperating with investigators, which is to be expected. After all, it rarely gets to be a more clear case of self-defense than that. I mean, the suspect reportedly knew the house was occupied, yet busted the door in just the same. It’s not an unreasonable assumption to believe that he allegedly entered that home with harmful intent.
> 
> And he was shot for his troubles.
> 
> Now, he gets to recover from his wounds and contemplate his life choices that led him to get shot in some stranger’s house simply because he apparently thought he had the right to bust into someone else’s home. If he’s smart, he’ll realize he’s fortunate to be alive and seek the path of redemption.
> 10/20/17
> 
> 
> Good guy with a gun stops kidnapping
> 
> It was habit, not heroism, that caused Justin Pearson to grab his gun.
> 
> But seconds later, that weapon enabled Pearson to stop a kidnapping taking place just outside his Las Vegas home on Oct. 5.
> 
> “We heard this real loud noise outside,” said Pearson, 36. “I opened up the door, and this big BMW goes flying by — 60 mph in a 25 mph zone. I dialed 911 immediately.”
> 
> As he always does before leaving his house, Pearson, a concealed-carry weapon permit holder, put his pistol on his hip. The 911 operator asked for a license plate number, so Pearson moved down the street to get it.
> 
> “He had lost control of the car and almost went into a house at the end of the street,” Pearson said. The BMW then turned around and stopped in front of a neighbor’s yard, where a 6-year-old boy was standing.
> 
> “About 50 yards in front of me, the driver grabs this young child and starts stuffing him in the car,” Pearson said.
> 
> “‘Holy crap, he just took a child, and he’s trying to stuff him into the car!’” Pearson remembers telling the operator.
> 
> Pearson is 6-foot-4 but makes a beanpole look stocky. The kidnapper, Pearson recalls, was a similar height, but was a “solid” 250 pounds.
> 
> “He was a very big dude, and I’m not a menacing person by any means,” Pearson said. “I don’t think I could have physically stopped the guy. It would have been super ugly if it was just me versus him.”
> 
> Fortunately, Pearson had a trump card — a Heckler & Koch VP9 pistol legally resting on his right hip.
> 
> 
> “I carry a concealed firearm everywhere I go,” Pearson said. “I lifted up my shirt and put my hand on my gun.”
> 
> “‘Hey, stop!’ I said, real loud. He turned and looked at me. There was just enough of a delay for the kid to get out of the car. I know he saw the firearm.”
> 
> With the boy out of the car and an armed citizen staring him down, the man decided to drive away. Pearson and his still-holstered pistol stopped a kidnapping. Police wouldn’t arrive for 17 minutes.
> 
> “If I didn’t have a firearm, I don’t think there’s much I could have done,” Pearson said.
> 
> A Metropolitan Police Department spokeswoman confirmed many of the details in Pearson’s story, including the date, time and location. Pearson said — and Metro confirmed — that the would-be kidnapper was the boy’s biological father, who didn’t have parental rights or permission to take the child.
> 
> This isn’t the first time Pearson has used a firearm to stop a crime.
> 
> “Many years ago, I was carrying and a guy pulled a knife on a friend of mine,” Pearson said. “I quickly drew my firearm, and the kid ran away.”
> 
> 
> These kinds of stories rarely make the news. But they happen more often than we realize and underscore an important point. Concealed-carry weapon permit holders prevent crimes.
> 
> ============
> 
> 10/16/17
> 
> 
> Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say
> 
> A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.
> 
> Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.
> 
> During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.
> 
> DC GUN-FREE ZONES CAUSE CONFUSION OVER LEGALITY OF GUN CARRY EVEN WITH A PERMIT
> 
> Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.
> 
> After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.
> 
> Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.
> 
> May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.
> 
> ===========
> 
> 10/11/17
> 
> Woman stabbed shoots and kills attacker...
> 
> Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged
> 
> A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.
> 
> About 4:05 p.m. Oct. 5, the 25-year-old man was shot in the chest when he stabbed the 25-year-old woman multiple times in the 4000 block of West 21st Street, Chicago Police said.
> 
> The woman was taken in serious condition to Mount Sinai Hospital, and the man was pronounced dead at the scene at 4:48 p.m., authorities said.
> 
> The Cook County medical examiner’s office identified him as Pleasure Cardell Singleton Jr.
> 
> The stabbing was believed to be a domestic incident, police said, but the nature of the relationship between the two wasn’t released.
> ======
> 
> 9/25/17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would-be robber fatally shot by resident after forcing family into basement
> 
> A man was shot and killed inside a home in Hammond, Indiana, Friday morning while attempting to rob the residents.
> 
> According to a statement from the Hammond Police Department, the suspect, who has not been publicly identified, entered the home through the front door around 7:30 a.m. The suspect said he knew of a safe in the basement of the home and announced a robbery while threatening the residents with the firearm.
> 
> The suspect then forced three residents into the basement, but unbeknown to the would-be robber, there was a fourth resident inside the house as well. The fourth resident retrieved a handgun, and when the suspect came out of the basement and walked into the kitchen, he shot the suspect multiple times in the chest.
> 
> Police were called, and when officers arrived on the scene, the suspect, who was only identified as a black male, was found lying on the kitchen floor. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
> 
> ==========
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 9/8/17
> 
> 
> Taco Bell employees shoot, kill armed robbery suspect
> 
> CLEVELAND – Three employees at a Cleveland Taco Bell shot and killed a suspect during an attempted robbery, according to police.
> 
> Officers responded to the restaurant on W. 117th street at 2:45 a.m. Wednesday morning for a report of a robbery with shots fired.
> 
> When police arrived, they found a suspect with multiple gunshot wounds. Officers administered first aid until EMS arrived. The suspect later died at MetroHealth Medical Center. The medical examiner later identified the suspect as 24-year-old Cleveland resident De'Carlo Jackson.
> 
> Another man, believed to be Jackson's accomplice, had already taken off by the time officers arrived.
> 
> Police say a preliminary investigation indicates that three Taco Bell employees, all armed, shot at the two suspects after they came into the restaurant wearing masks and ordered the employees to the ground at gunpoint.
> ==============
> 
> 8/23/17
> 
> Police: Robber tries to take woman's purse, flees when 57-year-old shows gun at west Little Rock shopping center
> 
> The would-be robber reportedly grabbed the woman’s purse while it rested on her shoulder, at which point, the victim brandished a weapon she had stored inside.
> 
> According to the report, the assailant then fled west through the parking lot of the grocery store and behind Belk.
> 
> No items were listed as stolen from the woman.
> ===================
> 8/9/17
> 
> Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart
> 
> *Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.*
> The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
> 
> According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
> 
> Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
> 
> 
> Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
> 
> Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
> 
> Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”
> 
> 8/6/17
> 
> 
> Police: Armed Woman Stops Road Rage Attacker with One Shot - Breitbart
> 
> *Police in Glendale, Arizona, say an armed woman stopped a road rage attacker with one shot on Wednesday.*
> The armed motorist repeatedly said she was armed but the attacker ignored her warnings.
> 
> According to 3 TV/CBS 5, Glendale Police Sgt. Scott Waite said a driver that was cut off by another vehicle at 67th and Olive Avenues, and then followed the vehicle “to 59th Avenue and Bell Road where a physical altercation took place.”
> 
> The road rage suspect allegedly approached the car and struck the passenger in the face, at which point the female driver exited the vehicle and announced that she was armed. Unfazed, “the suspect then [allegedly] approached the armed driver and punched her in the face and continued to assault her, putting her into a headlock.”
> 
> 
> Waite said the road rage suspect kept attacking the driver, even though the driver continued warning that she was armed. Realizing there was no other option, the driver then fired one shot, “ending the fight.”
> 
> A witness of the incident told 12 News, “One of them broke the car window of another car pulled the lady out and they started fighting in the middle of the street. One got on top of the other and the girl just pulled out a gun and shot her in the gut.”
> 
> 
> 8/2/17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 66-year-old jewelry store owner beaten during robbery, shoots 2 suspects, third in custody
> 
> Authorities say the trio – *all of whom were armed with handguns *– entered the business around 2:45, displayed their weapons and demanded cash and merchandise before they began beating and pistol whipping the 66-year-old store owner. At some point during the assault, the store owner was able to break free and retrieve his own gun.
> 
> The owner opened fire on the suspects and a gunfight ensued. During this time, Gomez and Mitchell were struck by gunfire. The owner, although he sustained injuries from the assault, was not injured by gunfire.
> 
> Soon after shots were fired, the trio ran from the store and fled the area in a vehicle that had been parked at a nearby carwash.
> 
> Gomez, who suffered multiple gunshot wounds, was dropped off at an area hospital, and Mitchell was found lying in the roadway at another location. Gomez, who has robbery charges pending, remains hospitalized, while Mitchell was pronounced dead at the scene where he was found.
> 
> Two days after the robbery, authorities received a tip that Harris was hiding out in San Antonio, leading the Lone Star Fugitive Task Force to conduct surveillance. The Task Force witnessed Harris leave a residence then get into a vehicle and drive away. A subsequent traffic stop was conducted, during which time Harris surrendered without incident.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 7/24/17
> 
> 72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’
> 
> After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.
> 
> “They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”
> 
> Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.
> 
> “I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.
> 
> Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.
> 
> Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.
> 
> 7/18/17
> no shots fired....
> 
> 17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder
> 
> On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.
> 
> The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.
> 
> The police provided updates on the _The Wake Up Show_ on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.
> 
> Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.
> 
> She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.
> 
> Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"
> 
> The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
> =========================
> 
> 
> How much money, how many lives are saved by armed americans...Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:
> 
> Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.
> 
> For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what _are_ the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> 
> The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.
> 
> In the K-G article _Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun,_ 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.
> 
> [NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 _trillion_ per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> *When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
> 
> =========*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Guy Tried To Rob A 7-Eleven. The Clerk Had A Gun.
> 
> A man attempted to rob a 7-Eleven in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Saturday, but was stopped by a clerk with a gun.
> 
> The man, identified as Davin McClenney, allegedly attempted the robbery at 1:06 a.m. but was shot by a 7-Eleven clerk who has not yet been publicly identified.
> 
> When police arrived at the scene, McClenney was already down with a bullet in his upper body. He was taken to the hospital, where he is currently in critical condition.
> 
> *McClenney has a prior criminal record that includes three robberies, one of which was a home invasion in July 2016 that involved him reportedly taking numerous items from the homeowner at gunpoint. He was set to stand trial for the crime in August, but a judge granted his release from jail on bond in December.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> =================
> 6/2/17 teenage thug shot and killed
> 
> Chicago teen fatally shot by CCP-holder during attempted robbery
> 
> A 16-year-old boy is dead after he allegedly tried to rob a man outside of a bank in the Oak Park area of Chicago Saturday morning.
> 
> Police say it appears the teen, who was armed with a gun, approached the 24-year-old victim just after 11 a.m. intending to commit a robbery. However, the would-be victim was also armed and an exchange of gunfire occurred.
> 
> The teen, who was identified as Damon Phillips, was shot multiple times in the chest and fled the scene in a waiting car. He later showed up at an area hospital where he was pronounced dead about half an hour after the attempted robbery. It wasn’t immediately known how Phillips got to the hospital or whether there was a second suspect involved.
> 
> The victim, who authorities confirmed has a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon, was not injured.
> 
> No charges have been filed at this time, although the incident remains under investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 5/110/17 Chicago car jackers shot
> 
> 
> Alleged carjacker shot, wounded on SW Side
> 
> CHICAGO (WLS) --
> The victim of an apparent carjacking shot and wounded one of the two men who allegedly tried to steal his vehicle Wednesday afternoon on the city's Southwest Side, police said.
> 
> The carjacker was shot in the groin, and were nabbed by police outside an auto repair shop near 63rd and Whipple in the Chicago Lawn neighborhood.
> 
> The 29-year-old owner of the vehicle, who has a valid conceal and carry license, fired his weapon after the two men approached him outside his PT Cruiser near 62nd and Homan.
> 
> The carjacker who was hit, a 25-year-old man, was taken to Christ Medical Center where he was in good condition on Wednesday, police said.
> 
> A witness said that by the time the PT Cruiser pulled into the driveway of the auto repair shop, it was being followed by five to six police cars.
> 
> Surveillance video captured the moment when police approached the vehicle outside the auto repair shop, two people in the car with their hands up.
> 
> Police found blood in the backseat and a flat tire.
> 
> Both offenders were in custody Wednesday
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 1/23/17
> 
> 
> Pizza Delivery Man Shot, Returns Fire
> 
> In southwest Philadelphia, a pizza deliveryman was ambushed and shot after he arrived at the location of a "customer."
> 
> 
> 
> The 36-year-old father of eight was delivering pizzas for Chester Pizza just after 7 p.m. Someone had called for a delivery and gave the address of an abandoned house in the 5300 block of Yocum Street
> 
> 
> He got out of his car and almost immediately found himself face-to-face with the armed suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> "A group of males came from the abandoned property towards him," said Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker. "One pulled a gun, pointed it at the pizza delivery driver's head (and) demanded money and pizzas."
> 
> Keyveat Fredericks struggled with the attackers and then made it to his car. "I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me," he described.
> 
> He was shot on his arm and hip.
> 
> But Fredericks didn't give up. He hid behind his car, unholstered his weapon, and shot back.
> =======
> 
> 1/11/17 Armed citizen saves trooper
> 
> Armed Man Saves Wounded Arizona State Trooper - The Truth About Guns
> ==========================
> 1/10/17
> 
> Pawn store shoot out video...you see owner shoot and kill one, the other runs away...
> 
> 
> GUN FIGHT: Breaking Down the Dixie Gun & Pawn Robbery
> 
> 12/19/16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed citizens foil 2 separate robberies in Philadelphia
> 
> Two attempted robberies in Philadelphia over the weekend were stopped when both intended targets fought back against and fired at their assailants.
> 
> The first attempted robbery occurred at an auto repair shop around 6:30 p.m. in the Elmwood area of the city. According to local reports, after the armed robber entered the shop, the owner shot the suspect a total of three times – once in the chest, once in the shoulder and once in the buttocks.
> 
> When police arrived on the scene, the 30-year-old suspect was transported to a local hospital. As of Sunday night, he remained in critical condition.
> 
> Police say they recovered a weapon from the scene. Neither the suspect or the shop owner’s names have been released.
> 
> The second incident unfolded about three hours later, shortly after 9:30 p.m., when a pizza delivery driver was making what he thought was a delivery in a northeast neighborhood.
> 
> As the 52-year-old driver, who police confirmed is licensed to carry a concealed firearm, walked up to the house where he was supposed to make the delivery, he was jumped from behind by the suspects. They initially made off with $82 from the driver, but as they attempted to make their escape, the driver opened fire, striking one of the suspects in the leg.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ===============
> 11/15/16
> 
> Armed Bystander Guns Down Criminal Suspect Attacking Cop
> 
> A passerby carrying a concealed weapon shot and killed a criminal suspect who was attacking a sheriff’s deputy in Estero, Fla.
> 
> Deputy Dean Bardes was pursuing a fleeing suspect in a 100 mph car chase down Interstate 75 when the suspect abruptly stopped, exited his car, and attacked Bardes after he did the same, acording to local WINK News. The suspect, whom the deputy says was armed, got the better of Bardes, who began crying for help.
> 
> “The officer opened his door, and the guy got out and ran out and grabbed the officer out of his car and started beating him profusely, throwing him to the ground and punching him in all different directions,” eyewitness Shanta Holditch told local station NBC-2.
> 
> ---------
> 
> *The bystander pointed his gun at the suspect and warned he would fire if he didn’t stop attacking the deputy. When the suspect refused, the bystander shot him three times, allowing Bardes to escape. The man later died from his injuries.*
> 
> Bardes avoided being shot and was released from the hospital Monday afternoon after being treated for minor injuries.
> ===============================
> 
> 11/3/16
> 
> 73-Year-Old Homeowner Kills Two Armed Robbers: Defensive Gun Use of the Day - The Truth About Guns
> 
> An [unnamed] active 73-year-old retiree was well liked in his South St. Louis neighborhood. He helped people out. He spent much of his time in his garage working on his truck. The retiree had been a victim of robbery attempts before. The armed homeowner was in his garage, working on his truck, when two men entered with guns drawn. From fox2now.com:
> 
> A 73-year-old man told police that he shot the suspects after they attempted to rob him. Investigators say that the man was inside of his garage when the suspects entered the door and displayed their guns. Police say that one of the suspects held a gun to the victim’s head and demanded the victim back up.
> 
> The victim said he got out his gun and, fearing for his safety, shot at the men. Police say that the victim’s gun and the guns used by the suspects were recovered from the scene. The gun recovered from Jonathan Warren was reported stolen on Sunday by the Florissant Police Department.
> 
> The homeowner’s marksmanship didn’t let him down. The two dead robbers, Jonathan Warren, 18, and Lonnie Middlebrook, 20, had significant criminal histories. No surprise there. From stltoday comments:
> 
> Case.net shows these two were certainly not on the path to stellar citizenship. Middlebrook already had charges pending on unlawful possession of a firearm over the summer. The other guy had charges for elder abuse and property damage with intent to steal. Plus it looks like they both had several run-ins with MetroLink.
> 
> =============
> 
> 10/25/16
> 
> 
> A Thug Tried To Carjack An Armed Senior. Wanna Guess What Happened Next?
> 
> An elderly Oklahoma man passing through Sioux Falls (SD) was attacked by a man half his age who must have thought that a man 42 years his senior sitting in a car with the door open would be easy target for a carjacking.
> 
> He figured wrong.
> 
> “The driver’s door was cracked slightly. While they were in there, what ends up being our suspect came along and pulled open the door and started punching the man in the head. Telling him to get out. He was trying to take the car,” said Sioux Falls Police Officer, Sam Clemens.
> 
> What the suspect didn’t know was the 71-year-old man he was was hitting over the head was carrying a concealed weapon. The Oklahoma man sitting with his wife took a 38 caliber handgun out of his pocket and shot the suspect twice.
> 
> “There’s some type of reciprocity so if you’re issued a concealed weapons permit in another state, as long as there’s that agreement between the states, then you’re allowed to carry concealed in a different state,” said Clemens.
> 
> The carjacking suspect, 34-year-old Edward Leblanc of Bismark, was found near McDonald’s on West 41st Street. He will most likely face charges of robbery and simple assault, once he’s released from the hospital.
> 
> ==========================
> 
> 10/9/16
> 
> South Carolina 14 year old school shooter stopped by concealed carry gun owner...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Townville, SC School Shooter Was Taken Down By Armed Citizen
> 
> It turns out that volunteer firefighter Jamie Brock was in fact armed with a handgun when he took down the teenager who murdered his father and then went of a shooting spree at Townville Elementary School.
> 
> A firefighter who had been reported to be unarmed when he took down a 14-year-old accused in a school shooting was actually carrying a handgun, the sheriff revealed Monday.
> 
> Jamie Brock, 30-year veteran volunteer firefighter, confronted J___ O___*, who is accused of killing his father and a first-grader and wounding a teacher and another 6-year-old on Wednesday.
> 
> Brock was the first to reach Townville Elementary School Wednesday afternoon after Osborne opened fire on the playground, authorities said.
> 
> Fire Chief Billy McAdams said he and Brock were at his nearby farm when they heard the call about the shooting, and they raced to the school, getting there before deputies.
> 
> The Townville Volunteer Fire Department is just down the road from the school. Brock got to the elementary school moments before other officers could respond to a 911 call.
> 
> By the time Brock reached the playground, first-grade teacher Meghan Hollingsworth and Jacob Hall and another boy had been wounded.
> 
> McAdams said Brock took the shooter down, and he did not mention the gun.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ========================
> 9/21/16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woman Kills One of Three Home Invasion Suspects in Gun Battle
> 
> *On Friday, a woman in Gwinnett County, Georgia, opened fire on three home invasion suspects who woke her from sleep by kicking in her door around 4 a.m.*
> One of the three home invasion suspects was killed during the exchange of fire. The other two fled the scene.
> 
> According to WSBTV, the woman and a man were in bed when they heard the sound of people kicking their way into the home. The woman grabbed her gun and confronted the invasion suspects, exchanging gunfire with at least one of them. Police said 28-year-old Antonia Leeks was shot and killed in the gun battle.
> 
> The woman owns a restaurant, and police believe this drew attention to her and ultimately led to the home invasion/attempted robbery. Gwinnett County police Cpl. Deon Washington said, “This is a very harrowing experience for anyone to endure. She’s shaken. It’s a very difficult experience for anyone to deal with.”
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ================================
> 9/16/16
> 
> Pastor's wife shoots suspect during robbery in NE Philadelphia
> The pastor was hit in the head with the rifle by the bandit.
> 
> His wife then pulled out a gun, she was licensed to carry, and shot the suspect in the leg, police say.
> 
> Pastor Robert Cook describes the moment his wife shot the suspect.
> 
> "And I turned like I was going to get my wallet, but I was stalling. And he hit me in the head with the gun. He swung it like a baseball bat.
> And everything was like lightning for a minute. And then I heard my wife saying, drop the gun, drop the gun. I'm like she's got her gun. He turns towards her, and I said, shoot him, shoot him. And she shot him."
> 
> The suspect ran off bleeding from the scene, jumped onto the running board of a passing SUV while tossing the rifle.
> Police put out description of that man, and a few minutes later, he was spotted near Frankford Hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> =================================
> 9/12/16
> 
> 
> 1 dead, 2 critically injured after shooting at Kansas Walmart
> 
> One person was dead and two others were critically injured after a shooting at a Walmart in Kansas on Sunday, police said.
> 
> Shawnee police spokesman Dan Tennis said In a news release that the incident occurred shortly before 1:30 p.m. (2:30 p.m. ET) at a Walmart southwest of Kansas City.
> 
> As a woman was placing her infant in a car seat in the store's parking lot, Tennis said, two suspects struck her in the back of the head with an unspecified object.
> 
> Tennis said a good Samaritan was shot repeatedly after trying to help her. A second good Samaritan then intervened, Tennis said, shooting and killing one of the suspects.
> 
> The second suspect fled and was apprehended by a K-9 team near the store, Tennis said.
> 
> Both victims remained hospitalized in critical condition, he said.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Four People, Dog Stabbed During Buffalo Grove Home Invasion
> 
> *CHICAGO (CBS) —* Four people and their family dog were stabbed early Wednesday, when two masked men broke into their home in north suburban Buffalo Grove.
> 
> Police said the homeowner grabbed a handgun during the home invasion, and opened fire, chasing off the suspects.
> 
> Just after midnight, police responded to a home invasion in the 400 block of St. Marys Parkway, and found several windows had been broken, and the front door had been forced open. Officers discovered a bloody scene inside.
> 
> Witnesses told police that two masked attackers had broken in, and a man armed with a large hunting knife repeatedly stabbed the 49-year-old homeowner. Three other people and the family’s German Shepherd also were stabbed.
> 
> During the struggle, the homeowner retrieved a handgun, and opened fire, causing the attackers to run away.
> 
> “It’s pretty shocking,” neighbor Bob Meyer said. “This neighborhood is very, very quiet. We’ve lived here for 30-plus years, and this stuff just doesn’t happen here; just doesn’t happen.”
> 
> ==========
> Mom-to-be shoots intruder with her pink pistol
> 
> A man is recovering from a gunshot wound after he broke into a Birmingham home early Friday morning and came face-to-face with a pregnant woman who was ready to protect herself and her baby.
> 
> Marquita Turner said she heard the suspect remove the air conditioning unit from a side window around 2:20 a.m. Once the unit was out, the suspect climbed right inside, but he likely wasn’t expecting to meet Turner with her pink Taurus Millennium 9mm.
> 
> “I grabbed my gun when I woke up. And I walked out of the door and I saw them, the guy in the hallway … he was kind of close to me so I shot and he fell,” Turner told reporters with alocal NBC affiliate.
> 
> Turner said she fired two or three rounds and struck the intruder once, then turned on the lights and called the police. Once they arrived, the suspect was taken to the hospital for treatment. He was expected to survive.
> 
> Turner, who is currently five months pregnant, said she purchased her gun two years ago for protection, but she’s never been to the range or otherwise had any type of training or target practice. Still, she’s glad she had the means to protect herself when she needed to. She said she doesn’t know what could have happened had she not be able to protect herself and her unborn baby.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ===============
> With a Gun to her Head, This Woman Knew How to Level the Playing Field (and her assailant)
> 
> Police in Glendale, AZ said it was in the early morning hours on Monday when 23-year-old Carol Miracle stopped in at a Circle K convenience store at 59th Avenue and Camelback Road and encountered a violent armed robber.
> 
> When police responded to a call of shots fired at approximately 1 a.m., witnesses at the scene said they saw 27-year-old Frank Taylor holding a gun to Carol’s head in an apparent armed robbery.
> 
> *But even with a gun to her head, the young woman knew how to level the playing field with her assailant, and was well equipped to do so.*
> 
> As Taylor held the barrel to her skull, Carol reached for her own gun holstered at her hip. She drew her weapon and took aim, firing one shot to end the attack.
> 
> Taylor was transported to a nearby hospital where he died from his injuries.
> 
> Police said Carol also called 9-1-1 to report the shooting from her home, which is in walking distance from the convenience store, and told police she was in fear for her life.
> 
> 
> ========
> Kentucky Man Wins Knock-Knock Game With Armed Robbers
> 
> A homeowner in Booneville, KY said he did what he had to in order to protect himself and his sleeping wife Tuesday morning when a group of home invaders knocked on his door and pulled a gun on him.
> 
> When James Stewart heard a knock at his door at 5 a.m., he armed himself with his pistol ‘just in case something went wrong’ before opening it to the woman outside who was asking for help. When he opened the door, his hunch was right – the woman was not alone.
> 
> Police said when Stewart opened the door, 42-year-old Charles Harris jumped out and pointed a gun right at the elderly homeowner’s head.
> 
> “I had my pistol in my hand, up and four shots. He fell to the ground and never moved,” said Stewart.
> 
> Harris was pronounced dead at the scene.
> 
> The woman who knocked on Stewart’s door was also shot in the arm. She managed to make it to their getaway car and the driver brought the woman, identified as 36-year-old Linda Peters, to a local hospital where she is being treated for her injuries.
Click to expand...




> ============
> Man Armed With a Handgun Saves Cop Who Was Pinned to the Ground By Suspect - Inside Edition
> 
> Wheeler said he was being attacked by a homeless man who later acknowledged to officers that he was high on crystal meth. Knocked to the ground and fighting to subdue the “very irritated and out of sorts” attacker, Wheeler ended up on his back with the man straddling him.
> 
> “I’ve never been in that situation before,” the 14-year department veteran told InsideEdition.com Wednesday. “I’ve always been able to take control of a situation.”
> 
> Earlier this week, Wheeler was able to reward Dylan DeBoard, the man who saved him, with the city’s Citizen’s Award of Valor. Every day, he remembers that day last year when things could have turned out far, far worse.
> 
> He often stops by DeBoard’s home, Wheeler said, just to say thanks. “Every time I see him I let him know how much I appreciate what he did.”
> 
> On that day last year, Wheeler’s shoulder microphone had been ripped off in the tussle, so he couldn’t call for back-up. And then the man started going for Wheeler’s gun. And that’s when Wheeler began to think he was running out of options.
> 
> “I pulled him in close to me to try to restrict his range of motion,” Wheeler said. But the suspect just kept “trying to reach my belt.”
> 
> And right about then, the man sat back and put his hands up. Wheeler wondered ‘What the …?’
> 
> He lifted his head and looked in the direction the man was staring. There stood another man, with a gun.
> 
> “I didn’t know if he was pointing at me or him,” Wheeler said, meaning the man sitting on him. That’s when DeBoard announced he had a concealed weapon permit.
> 
> While the suspect was distracted, Wheeler managed to flip him over and handcuff him.
> 
> =============
> 
> Yes....this woman wakes up at 6.am. to be pistol whipped by 3 armed home invaders.....while her 2 children are sleeping. She manages to get to her pistol and shoots the a******s and they run. She manages to hit at least one them who apparently assumed room temperature.
> 
> Too bad she had that gun. Now that poor, violent sociopath was killed. It is really a shame when 3 gun toting, violent sociopaths can't enter a home at 6 a.m., pistol whip the woman in the home, and who knows what else they planned, and without getting shot at. Something really needs to be done....she should never have had that gun in the first place...I am sure had she not had that gun.....and other than the pistol whipping, these 3 violent sociopaths meant her no harm.....er.....other than the pistol whipping......
> 
> What kind of country do we live in when even violent sociopaths aren't safe from gun violence....?
> 
> DGU of the Day: Trotwood Ohio Woman Defeats Three Home Invaders - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.
> 
> The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.
> 
> All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:
> 
> “I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”
> 
> In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.
> 
> Now....here is the thing.....the gun grabbers on U.S. will first tell us that this never happens.
> 
> Next they will tell us that the defender with a gun will never be able to actually use the gun because they aren't Navy Seals.
> 
> Next they will say, there is no way a good woman with a gun will ever win because she will be easily disarmed.
> 
> So......3 men with guns grab a woman with the element of surprise. They hit her, probably injuring her. She manages to get her gun and shoot the three of them out of her house killing one of the a******s in the process.........and I didn't see anywhere in the article where she was the first woman Navy Seal.
> 
> ===========
> 
> 
> Rifle-Wielding North Carolina Teen Scares Off Home Invaders: Defensive Gun Use of the Day - The Truth About Guns
> 
> 
> _Kirk Puckett, a spokesperson for the Alamance County Sheriff’s Office, said two sisters, 12 and 13, were inside the home when they heard knocking on the front door.
> 
> Puckett said when they looked outside, they saw three unfamiliar men. He said the older sister grabbed her dad’s rifle.
> 
> The suspects then broke in through the back door. Puckett said the 13-year-old pointed the rifle at them, causing them to run away without taking anything.
> 
> Neighbors praise the teen for her quick thinking.
> 
> “I am in awe of that young lady,” Jackie Garrison said. “To have had that kind of thoughtfulness going on in a time of crisis in her head to where that’s what she did, instead of running and hiding. She probably stopped something major from going on.”_
> 
> At the risk of losing my PC credentials, Ms. Garrison ain’t whistlin’ Dixie. Three men breaking into a home with two teenage girls is a recipe for unthinkable atrocity. Only it _is_thinkable — by anyone who understands the value of hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Including teaching their children how to react in an emergency.
> 
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/3252...fire-exchanged-between-pokemon-players-robber
> 
> Two people were wounded Monday morning after an exchange of gunfire involving a group of Pokemon Go players at a northeast Las Vegas park.
> According to Lt. David Gordon, of Las Vegas Metro police, a call of the incident came in at 4:02 a.m. at Gary Reese Freedom Park in the 800 block of North Mojave Road.
> Six people were playing Pokemon Go at the park when a person in a vehicle pulled up on the group and attempted to rob them, Gordon said. One of the Pokemon Go players, though, pulled out his own weapon and exchanged fire with the other gunman.
> The armed Pokemon Go player was wounded in the incident and was transported to a nearby hospital. The person believed to be the attempted robber was dropped off at a medical facility with a wound of his own.
> ===============
> Elderly homeowner foils attempted break in, shoots, kills would-be intruder in San Antonio
> 
> SAN ANTONIO — A man in his late 70s who shot and killed a would-be intruder Thursday morning on the Northwest Side is not expected to face charges at this time, police said.
> 
> Authorities arrived at the 9700 block of Autumn Dew around 10 a.m. after the homeowner and his wife, who is in her late 60s, called police to report that a man was attempting to break into their home.
> 
> SAPD spokesperson Douglas Greene said the elderly man pleaded with the attempted intruder to stop his efforts to get into the couple's home, but the man continued to force his way into the home, eventually breaking the door handle.
> 
> That's when Greene said the homeowner fired his revolver at the door, striking the man, who is in his 40s, in the chest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =====================
> Pistol vs ak-47
> 
> Waffle House Customer Shoots Robber Carrying AK-47
> 
> A robber armed with an AK-47 assault weapon stormed a Texas Waffle House, only to be shot by a pistol-packing customer, police say.
> A concerned customer and licensed handgun holder told police his wife was on her way to meet him at the establishment. Fearing that the armed robber could harm her, he told police that he confronted the gunman in the parking lot.
> When the suspect turned to face the armed customer with his rifle pointing in the customer’s direction, the licensed handgun holder opened fire, shooting him several times, police said.
> 
> ==========
> another night club shooting...
> 
> 
> Deputies: Man charged after opening fire, wounding several people at nightclub
> 
> LYMAN, SC (FOX Carolina) -
> 
> Deputies with Spartanburg County said a man faces multiple attempted murder charges after opening fire outside a nightclub early Sunday morning.
> 
> The shooting happened around 3:30 a.m. at Playoffz nightclub on Inman Road in Lyman.
> 
> Deputies said 32-year-old Jody Ray Thompson pulled out a gun after getting into an argument with another man and fired several rounds toward a crowd that had gathered out in front of the club.
> 
> "His rounds struck 3 victims, and almost struck a fourth victim, who in self-defense, pulled his own weapon and fired, striking Thompson in the leg," Lt. Kevin Bobo said.
> 
> Bobo said the man who shot Thompson has a valid concealed weapons permit, cooperated with investigators, and won’t be facing any charges.
> 
> "Thompson was still on the scene when deputies arrived, but the initial scene was chaotic," Bobo said. "It wasn’t until victims and witnesses were interviewed, and video from the scene was reviewed that Thompson was identified as the suspect."
> 
> Thompson was charged four counts of attempted murder, *possession of a weapon during the commission of a violent crime, and unlawful carrying of a weapon.
> 
> ----------------------*
> 6/3/16
> 
> 
> What I want you to know on Gun Violence Awareness Day | Fox News
> 
> I correctly listened to my instincts; I had a feeling that my life was in danger in that elevator and prepared myself mentally for what was potentially to come.
> 
> I ran to my car in an attempt to escape and, before I could even get my entire body in my car, I was tackled by my attacker.
> 
> This man quickly overpowered me, stabbed at me with a knife, clamped his hand over my mouth multiple times, and repeatedly tried forcing me in the passenger seat of my car while telling me, “We’re going.”
> 
> *The entire time this was happening, a rusted, serrated knife was being stabbed towards my abdomen and held at my face.
> 
> I had been hit in the face, thrown over my driver’s side console, and had rips in my tights from his hands trying to force my legs up and over into the passenger seat.*
> 
> There are some individuals that think gun owners are “trigger happy” and wanting to pull their weapons out at the first opportunity. There is nothing further from the truth.
> 
> The night I was attacked, I fought like hell for my life before reaching for my gun. I kicked, I screamed, I had all ten fingernails ripped off and bloodied from scratching and trying to fight my way out of a literal life and death situation.
> 
> *Ultimately, I accessed my gun, shot my attacker multiple times, and saved my life. He will be spending years in prison for what he did to me.*
> 
> Using a gun in self-protection is not a decision one makes lightly; in fact, I never dreamed that I would be forced into a situation where I would have to do so. However, I also never imagined such evil existing in the world so that I would be powerless, wounded, on my back and unable to physically force my attacker off of me.
> 
> I owned a gun and had been trained on how to use it. I know how to safely carry and that a gun is a serious and significant weapon; it is not to be used carelessly. Naysayers and people with opposing opinions may try to undermine my situation with hypotheticals. I cannot answer these questions. All I can do is tell the facts of my story and the true account of how I saved my own life.
> 
> *What I want you to know on Gun Awareness Day is that a gun in the hands of a potential victim is not improperly placed; it can be the only thing keeping her from being brutally raped and murdered. *
> 
> Without my gun, I would not be alive today.
> 
> 
> *Guns are not the problem in America; men like my attacker -- who are willing to violently change one person’s life for no reason except for pure evil – are the problem.*
> 
> Be safe at all times. Be aware of your surroundings. Trust your instincts. Always be able to protect yourself. Refuse to be a victim, and instead be a fighter and a survivor. Live to tell your tale and make a criminal regret the day he chose you as a “soft target.” My gun saved my life, and one could save yours too.
> 
> ------------
> 
> 4/23/16
> 
> 80-Year-Old Shows Us That Age Is Just A Number, Taking Out Armed Robbers During Home Invasion – Concealed Nation
> 
> Preying upon the hospitality of strangers, police are alleging that 23-year-old Whitney Kabiru approached the door of an 80-year-old man’s home and asked for help. When the elderly man opened the door, two men attempted to rob him with a BB pistol, according to a press release from the Fairmont Police Department. And for those two men, they couldn’t have made a worse mistake.
> 
> As WBOY 12 News reports, by the time Fairmont police arrived at the scene, Larry Shaver, 28, was found dead in the road with a gunshot to his head and neck area. His accomplice, John Grossklaus, 28, was recovered across the street from where the attempted robbery took place with a bullet through his abdomen. After taking Grossklaus to the hospital for treatment for his gunshot wound, he was arraigned in a local magistrate’s court.  The judge set his bond at $250,000.
> 
> ---------------
> 4/16/16
> 
> 
> Backseat Driver: Man Shoots his Kidnappers in Front Seat
> 
> When a man was kidnapped and stuffed into a backseat by two individuals in Nevada this week, they didn’t know he was equipped to shift their plan into park. Permanently.
> 
> After taking the man from his home, the kidnappers showed him they already had one of his store employees zip-tied in the backseat of their Nissan Altima. That’s when the man, who is reportedly a jeweler, then entered the car to appease the kidnappers. What they didn’t realize is that the man they were putting into the seat behind them had a concealed weapon.
> 
> During the car ride, as the men drove their hostages through a subdivision in Henderson, the man shot his kidnappers from the back seat, killing them both.
> 4/6/16 no shots fired story...
> 
> 
> Armed Citizen Saves Security Officer from 'Tire Iron' Beating
> 
> An armed citizen intervened in a parking lot attack, saving a loss prevention officer from an impending “tire iron” assault at the hands of robbery suspects.
> 
> According to KVII, Amarillo police say that around 12:45 p.m. on April 3, 35-year-old Ricky Solis was in a Home Depot parking lot in Amarillo, Texas, when he “[took] power tools from the store and left without paying.”
> 
> A loss prevention officer reportedly cornered Solis in the parking lot, and a struggle ensued. Police say that during the struggle a second suspect began attacking the loss prevention officer and kicked him in the face.
> 
> The second suspect went to his vehicle, grabbed a “tire iron,” and returned, apparently planning to use the iron on the officer.
> 
> At that point, a citizen with a concealed carry permit intervened, stopping the attack and reportedly forcing Solis to comply long enough to allow the loss prevention officer to handcuff him and hold him until police arrived.
> 
> Solis was arrested for robbery, and the second suspect was able to flee the scene.
> 4/2/16
> 
> 
> I believe the Thug Union Local 911 will be filing a grievance against the city for allowing victims to fight back....
> 
> Man Shoots, Kills Carjacker Near Goudy School Thursday
> 
> The men handed over their wallets and cash, Trainor said, but the robber then demanded their car.
> 
> One of the 23-year-old men then pulled out a gun and shot the robber multiple times, Trainor said. The alleged robber was taken to Advocate Illinois Masonic Medical Center where he was pronounced dead, she said.
> 
> According to Uptown Update, the man who killed the alleged robber was a former security guard with a concealed-carry permit.
> 
> And is anyone even remotely suprised by this little factoid......
> 
> *The robber was on parole for an armed robbery conviction, police said.*
> 
> 3/24/16 1 vs. 5
> 
> 
> Liquor Store Shootout After Attempted Armed Robbery in Denver
> 
> Just after 11 p.m. on Monday night, one Denver liquor store sounded more like a gun range than a fire water shop.
> 
> 
> 
> Five people entered the liquor store in an attempted robbery, but little did they know the clerk on duty wasn’t interested in being robbed or becoming a victim. He drew a weapon on the robbers and let them know he wasn’t going down without a fight.
> 
> “Shots were exchanged,” Sonny Jackson, DPD spokesman, said Tuesday morning.
> 
> Scared off by the return gunfire, the suspects took off, leaving one of their crew with a gunshot wound to the leg at Denver Health Medical Center. Police later speculated the wound may have been self-inflicted.
> 
> 
> 
> 3/24/16
> 
> 
> Mother Shoots Intruder 'Multiple Times' to Save Baby - Breitbart
> 
> *An Indianapolis mother shot a man “multiple times” after he allegedly broke into the home through the window in the baby’s room.*
> 
> According to CBS 4, family members said that around noon on March 24, the woman “heard the window get busted and she called her husband and said I think somebody’s breaking in the house.”
> 
> She grabbed her pistol and ran toward the sound of breaking glass, only to be confronted by the alleged intruder who shot at her, but missed.
> 
> The mother then opened fire and struck the suspect “multiple times.” He was transported to a hospital for treatment.
> 
> In addition to being armed, a 911 dispatcher said the suspect was “carrying zip ties and a walkie-talkie.”
> -------------
> 3/22/16 3-4 thugs
> 
> 14 year old girl who is shot, clears malfunction and shoots back
> 
> video in link...
> 
> 
> 14-Year-Old Girl Shot By Home Invaders, Shoots Back: Defensive Gun Use of the Day - The Truth About Guns
> 
> 3/22/16
> Woman vs. 3 thugs no shots fired
> 
> CCW IN ACTION: Armed 22-Year-Old Woman Stops Three Men Attempting To Rob Her In Store Parking Lot – Concealed Nation
> 
> OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA — A concealed carrier successfully thwarted the efforts of three men to rob her late at night outside a Dollar Tree. According to police reports from the scene, the woman was exiting the Dollar Tree and heading to her car when she was approached by a man and asked to walk with him. When she refused, he point-blank told her he was going to rob her of her purse.
> 
> At this point, according to KOCO, she was presented by two other men backing up the first. She withdrew her concealed carry pistol from her purse and threatened to use it to protect herself. All three men quickly exited and fled the scene.
> 3/15/16
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in Kansas (albeit in 2017).
> Can someone explain how a diveby or targeted assassination could have been prevented if everyone had a gun? The target would be dead or wounded long before anyone with a gun could react to what was happening and the car or bike would be long gone by the time they'd drawn their weapon and acquired a target. Normal people going about their daily lives tend not to have combat reflexes.




And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....



> St. Paul Woman Stops Violent Attack on Husband by Drawing Her Gun
> 
> A St. Paul, Minnesota man was brutally assaulted by a gang of 15 to 30 young men who were gambling in his driveway as he returned from work.
> 
> 
> 32-year-old Bruce Chang says when he tried to clear the group to gain access to his driveway, they began to assault him, even throwing rocks and jabbing sticks at his face and torso.
> 
> “I didn’t know I was stabbed but I felt the pressure and fell to one knee,” he said. “I immediately pushed off, because you got to survive.”
> 
> Although Chang had obtained his firearms permit for personal protection years ago, he is not allowed to carry at his workplace and says that’s why he did not have his weapon on him when he returned home that day.
> 
> Fortunately for him, his wife also has a permit. She was able to run outside and draw her gun – scaring off the gang and ending her husband’s violent attack.
> 
> “With one of my older neighbors, who knows what would have happened,” Chang said.
> 3/13/16
> 
> 
> Woman Scares off Assailant With Stick. Just Kidding, it was a gun.
> 
> Just before 7pm on Wednesday night, a 29 year-old woman had gathered up her dog and headed outside to… well, to let her dog do what dogs do.
> 
> Upon her first step outside her Minot, North Dakota home, she was hit solidly in the face with a blunt object, knocking her backward down the stairs and into her home.
> 
> Her assailant followed her into her home and started to approach her, but the woman had made it to a cabinet where she retrieved a handgun to protect herself and her home.
> 
> When confronted with the firearm, the violent intruder and would-be robber/rapist/murderer fled the scene.
> 
> The smart, independent, gun-owning woman did not require medical attention, most likely due to the fact that she was able to pull a weapon on her assailant to end the attack.
> 
> 
> Mount Vernon Man Fends Off Three Attackers With Concealed Firearm, Killing One – Concealed Nation
> 
> According to police and witness accounts, the concealed carrier was out on the street testing out a wireless signal booster when he noticed a black Chevy Cavalier slowly making its way down the block. It passed him and then stopped and let out a 22-year-old passenger armed with what appeared to be a shotgun. The armed suspect approached the concealed carrier. This is when the concealed carrier did the right thing and let the suspect know to stay away. When he didn’t comply, there was little choice left but to open fire. Because it was around 11 pm, it was not immediately apparent whether or not the bullet struck his attacker but the attacker quickly ran and got into the car.
> 
> According to Skagit Breaking News, Police were later called to the assailant’s home where he was found dead a half a mile away from where the incident occurred.
> 
> The driver and those in the vehicle were also found because of the swift work and coordination between witnesses in the area and the concealed carrier. They quickly and accurately reported information to the police which was then used to trace a list of likely suspects.
> 
> WRONG GUY: Armed Robber Killed After Targeting Concealed Carrier
> 
> An armed robber In Brooklyn Park—a northwestern suburb of Minneapolis–Saint Paul—chose the wrong person to attempt to rob Monday night, and instead of getting away with cash or jewelry, only collected lead.
> 
> Brooklyn Park Police say it appears a man who was fatally shot Monday night was attempting to rob someone who was legally carrying a gun.
> 
> Assistant Chief Mark Bruley says the preliminary investigation into the fatal shooting indicates that the man who was killed on the 7500 block of Imperial Drive targeted an individual who had a valid permit to carry a handgun as his victim. Witnesses say there was an exchange of gunfire, and the alleged robber was killed.
> 
> Information on the shooting is sketchy, but if this went down like so many recent defensive gun uses have, then the robber probably thought that he had the situation well in hand when he pulled his gun, and more than likely was stunned when the “victim” pulled a legally-concealed handgun. It’s not known from this account who fired first, but it is clear that the concealed carrier put effective rounds on target, while the bad guy didn’t.
> 
> There were witnesses to the shootout who apparently corroborate the concealed carrier’s version of events, and it does not look like the investigation will result in charges.
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police: Concealed Permit Holder Saves Officer Surrounded By Mob - Breitbart
> 
> *On February 5, an armed citizen saved an Upper Darby police officer who was under assault and encircled by a mob of onlookers.*
> Upper Darby Police Superintendent Michael Chitwood said “there is no doubt they would have attacked” the officer without the armed citizen’s intervention.
> 
> According to Philly.com, the officer was breaking up a fight between two Upper Darby High School students–after school had let out for the day–and one of the students jumped the officer. Superintendent Chitwood said, “As he breaks up the fight, he takes one kid and then the other jumps [on] him. Now he’s fighting two of them and he’s calling for an assist officer at the same time. There’s a crowd of 40 or 50 kids watching the fight, and they all move in towards the officer.”
> 
> An area resident with a concealed carry permit saw the officer struggling and the crowd closing in, so he grabbed his gun and ran to the officer’s defense. The resident ordered the kids to get away from the officer and kept them away until sufficient backup arrived. Chitwood said, “He had the gun in his hand, but he didn’t point it at the kids, he just told them to back off. If this guy didn’t come out and come to the aid of the officer, this officer would have had significant problems.”
> 
> The officer who was under attack suffered “significant hand injuries” and the first officer to respond to calls for backup “suffered a major injury to a leg when he was kicked by one of the teens in the fight.”
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Employee Stabbed At GM Warren Tech Center, Suspect In Custody
> 
> The women got into some kind of verbal dispute, Fouts said, during which the visitor pulled out a steak knife and violently stabbed the employee several times in the neck, abdomen and back.
> 
> A nearby valet driver, who also has a concealed pistol license, saw what was happening and rushed to the employee’s aid.
> 
> “He pulled the weapon out and stopped the attack from taking place,” said Fouts. “By then, this woman had been stabbed multiple times.”
> 
> The driver held the attacker on the ground at gunpoint as other GM workers called 911. Police quickly arrived on the scene and took the suspect into custody as the employee was rushed to the hospital.
> 
> She underwent surgery and was last reported in stable condition.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> 
> CCW Permit Holder In CA Holds Burglar At Gunpoint With His Glock Until Police Arrive
> 
> FRESNO, CALIFORNIA — A pocket-carrying homeowner took matters into his own hands when he saw someone walking around inside his home as he was outside doing yard work.
> 
> That homeowner, who did not want to be identified, says he’s had his concealed carry permit for 50 years in California and it’s the first time he’s ever been forced to draw.
> 
> When police arrived, accompanied by helicopter with a good visual on the situation, they found the homeowner with his Glock trained on the suspect, 54-year-old Enrique Garza.
> 
> *Police hailed the homeowner’s actions, saying it was a good thing his gun wasn’t sitting inside a safe, out of reach when needed most.
> 
> “If not for having a CCW, he probably wouldn’t have his gun on him, it probably would have been locked in a safe, and he wouldn’t have had access to it in order to hold this suspect accountable,” said Fresno County Sheriff’s Office spokesman Tony Botti.*
> 
> “You have to learn to be careful in this world, because there’s a lot of crazy people out there,” said the homeowner.
> 
> The Fresno County Sheriff’s Office mentioned that before the attacks in San Bernardino, concealed carry permits were issued in about one month. Now after the attacks, demand has skyrocketed, which has created a longer wait time of up to 10 months for permits to be issued.
> 
> --------
> Yes....this woman wakes up at 6.am. to be pistol whipped by 3 armed home invaders.....while her 2 children are sleeping. She manages to get to her pistol and shoots the a******s and they run. She manages to hit at least one them who apparently assumed room temperature.
> 
> Too bad she had that gun. Now that poor, violent sociopath was killed. It is really a shame when 3 gun toting, violent sociopaths can't enter a home at 6 a.m., pistol whip the woman in the home, and who knows what else they planned, and without getting shot at. Something really needs to be done....she should never have had that gun in the first place...I am sure had she not had that gun.....and other than the pistol whipping, these 3 violent sociopaths meant her no harm.....er.....other than the pistol whipping......
> 
> What kind of country do we live in when even violent sociopaths aren't safe from gun violence....?
> 
> DGU of the Day: Trotwood Ohio Woman Defeats Three Home Invaders - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.
> 
> The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.
> 
> All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:
> 
> “I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”
> 
> In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.
> 
> Now....here is the thing.....the gun grabbers on U.S. will first tell us that this never happens.
> 
> Next they will tell us that the defender with a gun will never be able to actually use the gun because they aren't Navy Seals.
> 
> Next they will say, there is no way a good woman with a gun will ever win because she will be easily disarmed.
> 
> So......3 men with guns grab a woman with the element of surprise. They hit her, probably injuring her. She manages to get her gun and shoot the three of them out of her house killing one of the a******s in the process.........and I didn't see anywhere in the article where she was the first woman Navy Seal.
> 
> ************************
> Homeowner Stays Armed In The House — Finds Knife-Wielding Man Inside And It Turns Out Great!
> 
> WILLMAR, MINNESOTA — A Willmar homeowner returned home to find a man wielding a knife in the middle of his living room. Using his pistol, which he was licensed to carry, he held the suspect at gunpoint and called 911. During the encounter, he allowed the suspect to leave after putting his buck knife down. Police caught up to the suspect, 37-year-old by the name of Shane Fellers. He was found inside a vehicle being operated by an unknown woman. Both were taken into custody and, according to the West Central Tribune, Fellers was held on a $70,000 unconditional bail for first degree burglary and burglary with a dangerous weapon. He also allegedly supplied the police officer with an incorrect name when he was initially apprehended — tacking on an additional misdemeanor.**********************
> Just saw this on the news....Predfan posted it in the firearms thread but this is about the owner of the store.....on the local news he thanked the new concealed carry law and the fact that his employee is a concealed carry permit holder.......I never thought I would see this in Chicago....
> 
> T-Mobile store employee shoots 2 armed robbery suspects near 95th, Jeffrey
> 
> The T-Mobile store in the 2000-block of East 95th St. was left riddled with bullet holes. If not for the employee carrying a weapon with a concealed carry license, the manager of the store says he might be telling a different story.
> 
> "I think concealed carry is a great opportunity for managers, workers, employees to protect themselves in these cases. And our employee did a great job to protect themselves and the other employee," said Neil Tadros, store manager.
> 
> He says two men entered the store and acted like they were shopping for phones for a few minutes, then pulled out guns.
> 
> One employee ran to the back to call for help while the other pulled out his own gun and fired at the two suspects. He hit one of them in the groin and the arm, and the other in the abdomen and the arm.
> 
> The men ran from the store with the employee chasing them, on the phone giving a description to police.
> 
> The suspects then drove to a nearby hospital where police took them into custody.
> 
> Neighbors say the cell phone store has been robbed several times in the last month. Ed Brown was working in the salon next door.
> 
> 
> We need more of these stories and then the criminals will start breaking into stores when no one is in them...that way they won't get shot.....
> 
> --------------
> Concealed Nation Fan Fends Off Three Home Invaders With M&P Shield
> 
> A father and son successfully fought off three home invaders in an early morning all-out fight for survival. Columbus police confirm that there was a home invasion in vicinity of 2:30 am where three suspected attackers kicked in the front door and immediately set to assaulting the son who was first to respond. Thankfully, his father was in the other room and able to flush out the attackers — using nothing less than his future everyday carry pistol, the M&P Shield.
> 
> “I come out and this one little one come tried to attack me and I took him out right away, one in the white shirt tried attacking me from the side, tried choking me and that kind of stuff,” says Shawn Howell, “Next thing you know he loses power and I jump up to get up and ready to start cleaning clocks *but I just darted into my room*… I come out and they were flying out the door so fast, I never seen anybody run so fast in my life… they knew what was coming,*they knew I was going for a gun*.”
> 
> According to both the victims’ testimony and police statements released through Channel 48 – Nebraska, the attackers fled before the future-concealed carrier could put bullets on target but he allegedly pursued them to their vehicle to “mark the truck”.
> 
> Both victims were transported to a nearby hospital where they were treated for superficial wounds sustained during the assault. Both the father and son were attending a concealed carry course to get their concealed carry permits and neither were expecting an attack of this magnitude to occur in their home.
> 
> ---------
> 
> 
> Burglars call 911 on themselves as homeowner holds them at gunpoint
> 
> A pair of men who were breaking into a Woodland, Washington, home Monday night got quite a scare when the owner of the house caught them redhanded.
> 
> Bill Lahti was surprised to find his home had been burglarized last week, partly because the home, which belonged to Lahti’s great-grandparents years ago and was handed down to him, isn’t exactly in an easy to get to location. The rural property has been dubbed by the Lahti family as “the hill,” and given the home’s history, Lahti was especially appalled at the break-in.
> 
> “I kept coming back periodically to check in,” Lahti told KATU. “So, Monday night, I roll up and there’s their truck backed up to the front door in the yard. (The) door was about – probably – four inches open. I could see the light through there. So, I came out there, jumped out of my truck, kicked the door open and there they were.”
> 
> Lahti told the two men to get down on their knees as he held them at gunpoint. He was going to call the police on them, but Lahti couldn’t get his phone to work. With his gun still trained on them, he instructed the crooks to make the call themselves. With few options, the suspects complied.
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> 
> Concealed Carrier Holds Burglar At Gunpoint With Her FNX .45
> 
> CLEVELAND, TENNESSEE — A woman successfully subdued a would-be burglar outside her home using her FNX .45. The suspect, James Jeffrey Dunn, was allegedly trying to break in through her front door late at night. She got her handgun and confronted the burglar, according to WRCB. Once at the doorway, she yelled through the door for him to stay put and not move. Moments later, she confronted him head-on — handgun drawn and ready to go.
> 
> via WRCB
> 
> “I tried to order him to stay right where he was at and I pointed the gun at him and I came running off the porch and I came within 10 feet of him and he laid the bicycle down and he crumpled on top of the bicycle,” she says.
> 
> She held him at gunpoint until Cleveland Police arrived and arrested Dunn, 35, on charges of aggravated burglary, theft, and burglary of a motor vehicle. Police note that Dunn had an arrest sheet tallying over 40 charges — the most recent being only 6 hours prior to his attempted burglary of this concealed carrier.
> 
> “We went over this when we got my concealed carry permit, these types of scenarios. But I had already put that gun up and ever taken it out since, you know?” she says. “Maybe to go the range once.”
> 
> When we talk about the new generation of concealed carriers, let’s take a good long look at the realities these people are facing: hardened, career criminals unafraid to bust through the door or do damage to private property and persons. It’s a good thing this woman had the proper training she needed and the right equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them
> 
> LANCASTER, Ohio - It happened along a walking path in Lancaster.
> 
> Dinah Burns is licensed to carry a concealed gun, but she'd only recently started taking her weapon while walking her dog.
> 
> Based on what happened, it looks like she'll make a point of carrying from now on.
> 
> "I think if they'd gotten any closer, I probably would have fired,” said Burns.
> 
> It was Monday when Burns was on a footpath near Sanderson Elementary School.
> 
> "Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said 'You're coming with us'."
> 
> The men weren't deterred by Dinah's dog Gracie.
> 
> "I said, 'Well, what do you want?,' and as I was saying that I reached in to my pocket and slipped my gun out, slipped the safety off as I pulled it out. As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, 'I have this and I'm not afraid to use it.'"
> 
> The men took off and so far have eluded police. Dinah posted about the incident on Facebook to alert friends and neighbors, to criticism by some.
> 
> "Most of the males' opinion was, 'Why didn't you shoot them?'"
> 
> Easy to second-guess a decision made under pressure, based on her concealed carry training, and police agree.
> 
> "To get out of a situation, back out, get out of it as much as you can without having to discharge your firearm."
> 
> "I will say it's a good thing to go from a place of danger to a place of safety, however you get that done,” said Sgt. Matt Chambers, Lancaster Police.
> 
> "Very thankful that it turned out the way it did, and hope it doesn't happen again, but I will be prepared."
> 
> NRA-ILA | Armed homeowner scares off attacker, KTVA, Anchorage, Alaska 11/13/15
> 
> A homeowner was in their house in Anchorage, Alaska when they heard a knock at the door. The homeowner retrieved a gun and went to answer the door. Upon opening the door, an intruder pepper-sprayed the homeowner, prompting the homeowner to fire at the criminal. The attacker fled the scene. (KTVA, Anchorage, Alaska 11/13/15)
> 
> ---------
> 
> NRA-ILA | Elderly couple fights off real monsters on Halloween, Helena-Arkansas.com, Helena, Ark. 11/01/15
> 
> An elderly couple were at home Halloween night, when the doorbell rang. Prepared to hand out candy to trick-or-treaters, the wife opened the door to find four armed robbers, at least two of whom were armed with guns.
> 
> The robbers forced their way inside the home, where the husband was sitting in a recliner. Upon learning of the home invasion, the husband retrieved a gun and fired at the criminals, prompting the home invaders to flee. (Helena-Arkansas.com, Helena, Ark. 11/01/15)
Click to expand...


----------



## 2aguy

Yeah.....as immigrant drug gangs fight over drug turf in Britain, guns become more important to their activities.....and they will use them freely since they don't care about British laws and have no fear of unarmed British bobbies...

Shooting up rival parties is just one of the charming aspects of drug gang activity...

Two men have died in a shooting after a lockdown party of "hundreds of people".

Police were called to reports that gun shots had been heard in Caythorpe Street in Moss Side, Manchester, at about 01:00 BST.

The two victims, aged in their 20s and 30s, "self-presented" in hospital and died a short time later.

Greater Manchester Police said the shooting happened at "an unplanned event" near to the location of an "earlier community event".

No arrests have been made yet.

A local resident said the shooting followed a lockdown party with a DJ and "hundreds of people".









						Manchester shooting: Two men die after Moss Side attack
					

"Hundreds of people" gathered at a courtyard in Moss Side, Manchester, prior to the shooting.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## PoliticalChic

Andylusion said:


> Which changes nothing of what he said.
> 
> Gun control hasn't stopped the rise of gun crime in the UK.
> 
> And the UK had lower gun crime, before they enacted all their gun control laws.
> 
> The reason we lead the world in gun deaths, is because you attack police officers, who then allow more crime.





The pertinent question for Leftists/Liberals is..."Which gun laws do criminals obey?"


The recent riots and lack of response by Democrat administrations pretty much ended any cache the anti-gun arguments had.


----------



## 2aguy

PoliticalChic said:


> The pertinent question for Leftists/Liberals is..."Which gun laws do criminals obey?"
> 
> 
> The recent riots and lack of response by Democrat administrations pretty much ended any cache the anti-gun arguments had.




And here is the one and only PoliticalChic..........good to see you....


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro

2aguy  How about you just put them all in one thread instead of creating a new one every single day?


----------



## Andylusion

PoliticalChic said:


> The pertinent question for Leftists/Liberals is..."Which gun laws do criminals obey?"
> 
> 
> The recent riots and lack of response by Democrat administrations pretty much ended any cache the anti-gun arguments had.



They live in a fantasy world, where if you just write a law "you can't have guns" then not only will criminals not have guns, but they'll stop being criminals, and thus we don't need police either.

It's all magic and ponies, and pretending that everything works out if you just make laws that say "everyone be good now".


----------



## 2aguy

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> 2aguy  How about you just put them all in one thread instead of creating a new one every single day?




If you want........


----------



## OldLady

2aguy said:


> .the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....


It DOES work there.  All you have to do is look at the numbers of gun deaths per country per year.  I've argued with you enough over the years; I don't need your long fact sheets of gun nutter dribble.  So don't bother.


----------



## Coyote

2aguy said:


> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


You make it sound like there is a huge immigrant inspired gun crime wave sweeping across Europe (which, btw, is not one country but many, each with their own set of gun laws).

US has by far the largest per capita rate  among western countries: 4.43 to U.K. 0.06.  And you think they should be more like us?  Or perhaps we should be more like them?


----------



## PoliticalChic

OldLady said:


> It DOES work there.  All you have to do is look at the numbers of gun deaths per country per year.  I've argued with you enough over the years; I don't need your long fact sheets of gun nutter dribble.  So don't bother.




All he need post is the second amendment of the United States Constitution.

Nowhere therein does it mandate you consider protecting yourself.

Carry on.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Coyote said:


> You make it sound like there is a huge immigrant inspired gun crime wave sweeping across Europe (which, btw, is not one country but many, each with their own set of gun laws).
> 
> US has by far the largest per capita rate  among western countries: 4.43 to U.K. 0.06.  And you think they should be more like us?  Or perhaps we should be more like them?




I'll help you pack.....


----------



## Coyote

Andylusion said:


> Which changes nothing of what he said.
> 
> *Gun control hasn't stopped the rise of gun crime in the UK.*
> 
> And the UK had lower gun crime, before they enacted all their gun control laws.
> 
> The reason we lead the world in gun deaths, is because you attack police officers, who then allow more crime.



Crime rates rise and fall due to a variety of socio-economic and political factors.  Gun control doesn’t change that.  What it does affect is deaths by gun-related violence and no matter what metric you use, the gap between the US rates and U.K. rates is huge.


----------



## Captain Caveman

Vagabond63 said:


> BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject
> "Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.



I find that despite covering the subject, by the next day, the same American says, "The Brits banned guns". I wish I got a quid every time that happens, then I would just be a quid behind Jeff Bezos.


----------



## 2aguy

OldLady said:


> It DOES work there.  All you have to do is look at the numbers of gun deaths per country per year.  I've argued with you enough over the years; I don't need your long fact sheets of gun nutter dribble.  So don't bother.




again.....you don't get it...you think the old way of life in Britain is going to stay that way....immigrant gangs don't care about British culture, value, or laws.....and they aren't afraid of unarmed Bobbies.......


----------



## 2aguy

Coyote said:


> You make it sound like there is a huge immigrant inspired gun crime wave sweeping across Europe (which, btw, is not one country but many, each with their own set of gun laws).
> 
> US has by far the largest per capita rate  among western countries: 4.43 to U.K. 0.06.  And you think they should be more like us?  Or perhaps we should be more like them?



Europe was set back by that little thing called World War 2....where vast numbers of their young men, their entire industrial base, and their societies were bombed into dust.........

They are catching up now, as their culture has created fatherless homes.......and their sons are joining criminal gangs to replace absent fathers........


----------



## 2aguy

Coyote said:


> Crime rates rise and fall due to a variety of socio-economic and political factors.  Gun control doesn’t change that.  What it does affect is deaths by gun-related violence and no matter what metric you use, the gap between the US rates and U.K. rates is huge.




And yet you can't explain the United States and the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%.....since 1993........ a 27 year period.....

You....can't....explain.....that.   

the gap between the U.S. and the U.K. has nothing to do with gun ownership.....it had to do with the War destroying Britain, and their recent desire to import immigrants in vast numbers from war torn countries.......

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
====

*You can't explain Maine or  Brazil...*

Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
=============

Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously

In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:


> _Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime._


Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.

After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
-------

Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:


> _César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office._


The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:


> _Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday._


When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

The more I look into it the more convinced I am that we have got it wrong.
By adopting American Gun laws we become safer as people and can bring our murder rates down to US levels.
Its just basic common sense really.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> The more I look into it the more convinced I am that we have got it wrong.
> By adopting American Gun laws we become safer as people and can bring our murder rates down to US levels.
> Its just basic common sense really.




Please...with what you feel about gun control....how do you explain the fact, the fact, that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%....

You have never even tried to explain how that is possible given what you feel about gun control....


----------



## Andylusion

Coyote said:


> Crime rates rise and fall due to a variety of socio-economic and political factors.  Gun control doesn’t change that.  What it does affect is deaths by gun-related violence and no matter what metric you use, the gap between the US rates and U.K. rates is huge.



Yeah, I agree with everything until your last claim.    You are implying that the difference in rates, is because of gun laws.

There is no evidence of that.   Gun crime was lower in the UK, before they had all these gun control laws.

This supports your first statement, but not your second.    Your first statement is correct.   There are a variety of factors that affect crime rates.  Which is why, again, gun crime was lower in the UK before the gun laws were all passed.

What doesn't fit is the claim that all gun laws did something.

Gun crime actually increased slightly after passing gun control laws.








						Gun crime highest for a decade for four police forces
					

More than one in five victims of firearms offences, excluding air weapons, was aged under 20.



					www.bbc.com
				




And gun crime is on the rise.   So clearly those gun laws are not effective.  And again, never were.  Gun crime was lower before all the gun laws were put into effect.

Gun laws do nothing.   You can make a gun from hardware store parts.   You can make bullets too.

Just like drug laws haven't stopped drugs, so have gun laws not stopped guns.   And it is ridiculous to think so.

What stops crime of all types, is ruthless enforcement of the law.  Short of that, your laws do nothing but harm the innocent, and make life safe for criminals.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Please...with what you feel about gun control....how do you explain the fact, the fact, that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%....
> 
> You have never even tried to explain how that is possible given what you feel about gun control....


I dont have to explain anything you fucking cretin. The UK is many times safer than the crazy US because we dont all need a gun to go to the shops.
If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> I dont have to explain anything you fucking cretin. The UK is many times safer than the crazy US because we dont all need a gun to go to the shops.
> If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?




And there you are...... You can't explain it....it shows you are wrong...so you pretend that you don't care to explain it........what weak tea....you left wing doofus.

Again.....more Americans own and actually carry guns over the last 27 years.....our gun crime rate down 75%......gun murder down 49%...

You can't explain that.........


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> I dont have to explain anything you fucking cretin. The UK is many times safer than the crazy US because we dont all need a gun to go to the shops.
> If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?




Our democrat party cities are shit shows because they let repeat, violent criminals out of jail, and attack our police.......forcing the police to stop policing to protect themselves and their families from the democrat party.....

There...I explained that....you still can't explain how more Americans own and carry guns over the last 27 years but our gun crime rate went down 75%, our gun murder rate went down 49%.........


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> I dont have to explain anything you fucking cretin. The UK is many times safer than the crazy US because we dont all need a gun to go to the shops.
> If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?




And another reason....the democrat party policy....The Great Society....destroyed Black families in democrat party controlled cities.........we have an over 75% out of wedlock birth rate among Black families....that is another reason our democrat party controlled cities are shit shows...

There...explained that even more....


----------



## miketx

OldLady said:


> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.


Well, you're pretty dense so I'll tell you. He's trying to show you how criminals don't obey gun control laws, or any other ones for that matter. I realize it was pointless to explain this to you but perhaps someone else not quite as brainwashed and thick as you may get it.


----------



## miketx

Tommy Tainant said:


> I dont have to explain anything you fucking cretin. The UK is many times safer than the crazy US because we dont all need a gun to go to the shops.
> If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?


Because politicians refuse to punish criminals and scum like you want to empty the prisons. And your shithole country is not safe as you were just shown.


----------



## HenryBHough

Quit with the bullshit.

Britain has STRICT gun restrictions.  Only responsible, totally law-abiding people with appropriate Party registrations are allowed to even think about owning guns.

The left (worldwide) screams that we need gun control because only gun control works.

So.....

This crap about shootings in Britain is pure bullshit.  It's impossible.  Liberals have told us so.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> And another reason....the democrat party policy....The Great Society....destroyed Black families in democrat party controlled cities.........we have an over 75% out of wedlock birth rate among Black families....that is another reason our democrat party controlled cities are shit shows...
> 
> There...explained that even more....



If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?


----------



## Likkmee

2aguy said:


> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Britain invented heroin addicts. Give them a cookie....make sure it's shitty, like their tea....and everything else the dumb motherfuckers never invented to eat or drink. Useless fuckers.


----------



## Likkmee

Tommy Tainant said:


> If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?


Because the loudmouths wont USE them. There should be thousands of dead "domestic enemies' dead. They aint. Order more infrared and camo to show off. OH. Send letters too ! Tweet pole if need be. You can have REAL assholes with you on that....while you "prepare"....for the next check


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?




The democrat party, and it's policies for letting repeat, known, violent criminals out of jail and prison over and over again....criminals created by the break down of the Black family in democrat party controlled cities......White families are also under going this problem, but it has devastated Black Communities to the point 75% of Black children are born in homes without fathers....which is what causes the social problems in these democrat party cities....

Our democrat party cities are shit shows because they let repeat, violent criminals out of jail, and attack our police.......forcing the police to stop policing to protect themselves and their families from the democrat party.....

There...I explained that....you still can't explain how more Americans own and carry guns over the last 27 years but our gun crime rate went down 75%, our gun murder rate went down 49%.........


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> If guns make you safer why is the US such a shit show ?




I explained this...again...

You still have not explained how it is that over 27 years, as more Americans own and carry guns ..... 18.2 million Americans now can carry guns for self defense......and our gun crime rate went down 75%...our gun crime rate went down 49%....and our violent crime rate went down 725


You can't explain that.......you refuse to explain it........ you have no clue why this is so...


----------



## Dalia

We see the difference when it is not a blacks who are killed the leftie media are carefull all that remains in the blur and it does not seem to shocked them,  what a bunch of hypocrites


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> I explained this...again...
> 
> You still have not explained how it is that over 27 years, as more Americans own and carry guns ..... 18.2 million Americans now can carry guns for self defense......and our gun crime rate went down 75%...our gun crime rate went down 49%....and our violent crime rate went down 725
> 
> 
> You can't explain that.......you refuse to explain it........ you have no clue why this is so...


You havent explained anything. You are just trying to exclude parts of your country to suit your sad agenda.
Guns do not make you safer.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I explained this...again...
> 
> You still have not explained how it is that over 27 years, as more Americans own and carry guns ..... 18.2 million Americans now can carry guns for self defense......and our gun crime rate went down 75%...our gun crime rate went down 49%....and our violent crime rate went down 725
> 
> 
> You can't explain that.......you refuse to explain it........ you have no clue why this is so...
> 
> 
> 
> You havent explained anything. You are just trying to exclude parts of your country to suit your sad agenda.
> Guns do not make you safer.
Click to expand...



Yes....you can't explain how it is, with your feelings about guns and gun control, that in the United States as more Americans own and actually carry guns, our gun crime rate went down 75%...

You can't explain it...

Our gun murder rate went down 49%....

You can't explain it....

Our violent crime rate went down 72%....

You can't explain it.


I explained exactly what drives our crime rates in our democrat controlled cities....

The democrats keep releasing violent criminals over and over again.

Democrat party social policies starting with the Great Society destroyed Black families and now you have 75% of Black Children raised in homes without mothers and fathers....left to be raised by single teenage girls, who have children from multiple males....

Still waiting for your explanation......on guns.


----------



## LuckyDuck

2aguy said:


> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


The price to pay for having allowed open borders and thus smugglers.


----------



## Mindful

2aguy said:


> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



Exactly. I’ve been rattling this cage for years.

Concerning gun control, after the last  terrorist shooting at the Strasbourg Christmas Market, I went and asked the German police where the guns came from. They told me there’s a *huge *black market for them. Right across Europe.

People walk around in blinkers. They see what they want to see.


----------



## 2aguy

Mindful said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I’ve been rattling this cage for years.
> 
> Concerning gun control, after the last  terrorist shooting at the Strasbourg Christmas Market, I went and asked the German police where the guns came from. They told me there’s a *huge *black market for them. Right across Europe.
> 
> People walk around in blinkers. They see what they want to see.
Click to expand...



The preferred weapon of criminal gangs in Europe is the fully automatic military rifle......they also like hand grenades in Sweden....


----------



## Mindful

2aguy said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I’ve been rattling this cage for years.
> 
> Concerning gun control, after the last  terrorist shooting at the Strasbourg Christmas Market, I went and asked the German police where the guns came from. They told me there’s a *huge *black market for them. Right across Europe.
> 
> People walk around in blinkers. They see what they want to see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The preferred weapon of criminal gangs in Europe is the fully automatic military rifle......they also like hand grenades in Sweden....
Click to expand...


The weapons used in the Paris Bataclan attacks were three assault rifles, Soviet-made pistols and a Skorpion submachine gun.

And in the meantime, the terrorists had been driving  up and down  between Paris and Brussels (the hotbed). No border controls or checks between countries.


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

Mindful said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I’ve been rattling this cage for years.
> 
> Concerning gun control, after the last  terrorist shooting at the Strasbourg Christmas Market, I went and asked the German police where the guns came from. They told me there’s a *huge *black market for them. Right across Europe.
> 
> People walk around in blinkers. They see what they want to see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The preferred weapon of criminal gangs in Europe is the fully automatic military rifle......they also like hand grenades in Sweden....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The weapons used in the Paris Bataclan attacks were three assault rifles, Soviet-made pistols and a Skorpion submachine gun.
> 
> And in the meantime, the terrorists had been driving  up and down  between Paris and Brussels (the hotbed). No border controls or checks between countries.
Click to expand...

Yes that's why France has the worst gun death ratio in Europe.
All hand guns and assault rifles are banned in the UK and they are not easy to smuggle in across the channel.


----------



## Mindful

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I’ve been rattling this cage for years.
> 
> Concerning gun control, after the last  terrorist shooting at the Strasbourg Christmas Market, I went and asked the German police where the guns came from. They told me there’s a *huge *black market for them. Right across Europe.
> 
> People walk around in blinkers. They see what they want to see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The preferred weapon of criminal gangs in Europe is the fully automatic military rifle......they also like hand grenades in Sweden....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The weapons used in the Paris Bataclan attacks were three assault rifles, Soviet-made pistols and a Skorpion submachine gun.
> 
> And in the meantime, the terrorists had been driving  up and down  between Paris and Brussels (the hotbed). No border controls or checks between countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes that's why France has the worst gun death ratio in Europe.
> All hand guns and assault rifles are banned in the UK and they are not easy to smuggle in across the channel.
Click to expand...


This goes some way to explaining it.









						How illegal firearms find their way onto British streets despite tough laws
					

Given the strict laws governing access to and types of gun allowable in the UK, how do guns get into the hands of criminals?




					theconversation.com


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

*Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized societ*y.


----------



## Mindful

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> *Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized societ*y.



The number crunchings and spreadsheets have already been done. To death.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Mindful said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized societ*y.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The number crunchings and spreadsheets have already been done. To death.
Click to expand...

And pretty much nail the argument every time.


----------



## Mindful

Tommy Tainant said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized societ*y.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The number crunchings and spreadsheets have already been done. To death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And pretty much nail the argument every time.
Click to expand...


Oh please do surprise me.


----------



## Mindful




----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't. This is not a *fact*, but an *extrapolation* based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.
> 
> Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.   In fact, it is only one of about 17 studies on the topic.....so you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> The research...including the CDC under barak obama, and the Department of Justice under bill clinton........
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
> 
> GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
> 
> GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
> 
> Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)
> 
> CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)
> 
> Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
> 
> --------------------
> 
> 
> Bordua...1977...1,414,544
> 
> DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)
> 
> Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)
> 
> Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
> 
> (Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])
> 
> Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Ohio...1982...771,043
> 
> Gallup...1991...777,152
> 
> Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)
> 
> Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
Click to expand...


...and that proves conclusively that all you have is guesses, not facts. There is no hard data to prove or disprove your theories. The 1.2 figure is an unsubstantiated assertion.


----------



## Vagabond63

Mindful said:


> View attachment 353916


Mindful, is that you?


----------



## Vagabond63

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> 2aguy  How about you just put them all in one thread instead of creating a new one every single day?


Oh please! If only he did, he'd only have to cut and paste his BS just once.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.





2aguy said:


> Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.



No it isn't, and you know it.



2aguy said:


> And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....



Blah, blah, blah. Anecdotes are meaningless, unless you can provide 1.2 million of them for scrutiny. If you want counter "evidence", look no further than this site: https://concealedcarrykillers.org/

" Currently, _Concealed Carry Killers_ documents 1,140 incidents in 40 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 1,371 deaths. In 89 percent of the incidents (1,020) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (534), has already been convicted (404), perpetrated a murder-suicide (62), or was killed in the incident (20). Of the 81 cases still pending, the vast majority (68 of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 39 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Twenty-four of the victims were law enforcement officers. Thirty-five of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 167 victims. "

...and that's just those people who owned guns legally.

Oh, and by the way, I'm an ex- gun owner. When it was legal to do so, I owned three handguns, a Glock, a Baretta and a H&K, was a member of two shooting clubs; one target shooting, the other "practical" shooting. I'm also ex-military so in my time I've fired every caliber of weapon from .22 to a 120mm tank gun, so I contend I have some knowledge.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't. This is not a *fact*, but an *extrapolation* based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.
> 
> Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.   In fact, it is only one of about 17 studies on the topic.....so you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> The research...including the CDC under barak obama, and the Department of Justice under bill clinton........
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
> 
> GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
> 
> GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
> 
> Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)
> 
> CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)
> 
> Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
> 
> --------------------
> 
> 
> Bordua...1977...1,414,544
> 
> DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)
> 
> Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)
> 
> Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
> 
> (Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])
> 
> Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Ohio...1982...771,043
> 
> Gallup...1991...777,152
> 
> Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)
> 
> Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and that proves conclusively that all you have is guesses, not facts. There is no hard data to prove or disprove your theories. The 1.2 figure is an unsubstantiated assertion.
Click to expand...


Backed by 17 other studies by both the government an private research groups.......including the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice.....filled with anti-gunners....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> *Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized societ*y.




No, actually that number is way off....according to the FBI


Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

2018...

Gun.....

2018........10,265 ... 

2017...11,006....

2016,  10,372


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> *Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized societ*y.




Okay....genius....please explain how it is that as more Americans both own and actually carry guns, our gun crime rate went down 75%......how does your number crunching factor that?  

How does your number crunching factor in the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%....

You can't explain it with what you feeeelz about guns....

The real world shows you don't know what you are talking about...

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.



The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....

*More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.*

Actual Result:

*In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72% 

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....*

In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.



Whatever the crime rate does......as more Americans owned more guns the crime rate did not go up....so again...



Britain...
*Less  Guns = Same  Gun Crime

Britain had access to guns before they banned them.....they had low gun crime, low gun murder.

They banned guns, the gun murder rate spiked for 10 years then returned to the same level...

Your Theory again....

More guns = More Gun Crime

Guns Banned creates no change?   That means banning guns for law abiding gun owners had no effect on gun crime.

When your theory states one thing, and you implement your theory, and nothing changes....in science, that means your theory is wrong...
-------
*

Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
=============

Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously

In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:


> _Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime._


Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.

After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
-------

Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:


> _César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office._


The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:


> _Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday._


When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I’ve been rattling this cage for years.
> 
> Concerning gun control, after the last  terrorist shooting at the Strasbourg Christmas Market, I went and asked the German police where the guns came from. They told me there’s a *huge *black market for them. Right across Europe.
> 
> People walk around in blinkers. They see what they want to see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The preferred weapon of criminal gangs in Europe is the fully automatic military rifle......they also like hand grenades in Sweden....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The weapons used in the Paris Bataclan attacks were three assault rifles, Soviet-made pistols and a Skorpion submachine gun.
> 
> And in the meantime, the terrorists had been driving  up and down  between Paris and Brussels (the hotbed). No border controls or checks between countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes that's why France has the worst gun death ratio in Europe.
> All hand guns and assault rifles are banned in the UK and they are not easy to smuggle in across the channel.
Click to expand...



And the British police say different...

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

*Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

*The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs.

*Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

*Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”*

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it isn't, and you know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Blah, blah, blah. Anecdotes are meaningless, unless you can provide 1.2 million of them for scrutiny. If you want counter "evidence", look no further than this site: https://concealedcarrykillers.org/
> 
> " Currently, _Concealed Carry Killers_ documents 1,140 incidents in 40 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 1,371 deaths. In 89 percent of the incidents (1,020) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (534), has already been convicted (404), perpetrated a murder-suicide (62), or was killed in the incident (20). Of the 81 cases still pending, the vast majority (68 of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 39 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Twenty-four of the victims were law enforcement officers. Thirty-five of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 167 victims. "
> 
> ...and that's just those people who owned guns legally.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, I'm an ex- gun owner. When it was legal to do so, I owned three handguns, a Glock, a Baretta and a H&K, was a member of two shooting clubs; one target shooting, the other "practical" shooting. I'm also ex-military so in my time I've fired every caliber of weapon from .22 to a 120mm tank gun, so I contend I have some knowledge.
Click to expand...



Do you understand that the statistics you just posted are wrong?

You pick the one study that is a lie...good job....

Then you have to explain how it is that as more Americans now carry guns for self defense our gun murder rate went down 49%...

How do you explain that....you twit.











						Massive errors in the Violence Policy Center’s “Concealed Carry Killers”
					

The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out the claim that concealed handgun permit holders are a danger to themselves and others. Right now they claim that concealed handgun permits have been re…




					crimeresearch.org
				




The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out the claim that concealed handgun permit holders are a danger to themselves and others. 

Right now they claim that concealed handgun permits have been responsible for 636 deaths from the entire United States over almost seven years from May 2007 to March 2014. John Lott has pointed out errors in the VPC numbers for Florida, so here let’s take the errors in just one state Michigan.

— In the Michigan state reports on concealed handgun permit holders that are cited by the VPC, 185 people died of suicides during the four reports from 2007 through 2012. That is 29 percent of the purported 636 deaths for the entire United States that the Violence Policy Center attributes to permitted concealed handguns.

*But there is the problem: If you look at page 2 in the latest report, you will see that the 28 suicides do not list a cause of death. The report merely notes that permit holders committed suicide. *

We don’t know if they committed suicide with a gun and if it was a gun, that it was the gun that they carried concealed. Given that the overwhelming majority of these suicides were presumably at home, like the vast majority of suicides, it isn’t even clear why a concealed handgun permit is relevant.

*The suicide rate among permit holders in Michigan in 2012/13 (6.2 per 100,000 = ((28/450,000)*100,000) is about 62% lower than the suicide rate in the general adult population (see screen shot of suicide rate numbers from the CDC for adults in Michigan).
-----*

*In other words, during 2007–08, five cases were pending and there were no convictions. The Violence Policy Center makes several fundamental mistakes. First, it can’t add simple numbers up correctly. While the VPC claims 20 pending cases and 14 convictions, the Michigan State Police report a total of 14 and 11 cases respectively.

f you include both pending and convicted cases for all these years, you are going to obviously double count cases.  Obviously, some pending cases end in convictions.  The problem is clearly even worse than that as many cases will be pending over multiple years.  So if you have a news story on a case and then the case is pending for several years before the permit holder is found to have acted in justifiable self-defense, you will count one case as four bad cases when it shouldn’t have even been counted one time.*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it isn't, and you know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Blah, blah, blah. Anecdotes are meaningless, unless you can provide 1.2 million of them for scrutiny. If you want counter "evidence", look no further than this site: https://concealedcarrykillers.org/
> 
> " Currently, _Concealed Carry Killers_ documents 1,140 incidents in 40 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 1,371 deaths. In 89 percent of the incidents (1,020) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (534), has already been convicted (404), perpetrated a murder-suicide (62), or was killed in the incident (20). Of the 81 cases still pending, the vast majority (68 of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 39 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Twenty-four of the victims were law enforcement officers. Thirty-five of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 167 victims. "
> 
> ...and that's just those people who owned guns legally.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, I'm an ex- gun owner. When it was legal to do so, I owned three handguns, a Glock, a Baretta and a H&K, was a member of two shooting clubs; one target shooting, the other "practical" shooting. I'm also ex-military so in my time I've fired every caliber of weapon from .22 to a 120mm tank gun, so I contend I have some knowledge.
Click to expand...



Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....

Again....

We went from  4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997 to over 18.2 million people actually carrying guns for self defense in 2018...

Gun murder dropped 49%...

How.....do.....you....explain.......that.....?

Gun crime dropped 75%....

How......do.......you.....explain......that....?


Violent crime dropped 72%....


How......do......you.....explain......that....?

You don't know what you are talking about....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it isn't, and you know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Blah, blah, blah. Anecdotes are meaningless, unless you can provide 1.2 million of them for scrutiny. If you want counter "evidence", look no further than this site: https://concealedcarrykillers.org/
> 
> " Currently, _Concealed Carry Killers_ documents 1,140 incidents in 40 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 1,371 deaths. In 89 percent of the incidents (1,020) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (534), has already been convicted (404), perpetrated a murder-suicide (62), or was killed in the incident (20). Of the 81 cases still pending, the vast majority (68 of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 39 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Twenty-four of the victims were law enforcement officers. Thirty-five of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 167 victims. "
> 
> ...and that's just those people who owned guns legally.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, I'm an ex- gun owner. When it was legal to do so, I owned three handguns, a Glock, a Baretta and a H&K, was a member of two shooting clubs; one target shooting, the other "practical" shooting. I'm also ex-military so in my time I've fired every caliber of weapon from .22 to a 120mm tank gun, so I contend I have some knowledge.
Click to expand...



This is how bad your source is you twit...

Your source......

*You thus have 12 cases for just Michigan that are triple counted. 

In addition, the reason that many of the arrests don’t result in a conviction is that people were found to have acted in self-defense. *

If someone uses a gun defensively in public, they are going to be arrested and detained by police until an investigation has been done. Including those cases and news stories about those arrests, thus double counts cases that shouldn’t even be included in the total — *if anything they should be counted as benefits from concealed carry, not costs.*









						Massive errors in the Violence Policy Center’s “Concealed Carry Killers”
					

The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out the claim that concealed handgun permit holders are a danger to themselves and others. Right now they claim that concealed handgun permits have been re…




					crimeresearch.org


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't. This is not a *fact*, but an *extrapolation* based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.
> 
> Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.   In fact, it is only one of about 17 studies on the topic.....so you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> The research...including the CDC under barak obama, and the Department of Justice under bill clinton........
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
> 
> GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
> 
> GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
> 
> Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)
> 
> CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)
> 
> Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
> 
> --------------------
> 
> 
> Bordua...1977...1,414,544
> 
> DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)
> 
> Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)
> 
> Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
> 
> (Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])
> 
> Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Ohio...1982...771,043
> 
> Gallup...1991...777,152
> 
> Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)
> 
> Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and that proves conclusively that all you have is guesses, not facts. There is no hard data to prove or disprove your theories. The 1.2 figure is an unsubstantiated assertion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Backed by 17 other studies by both the government an private research groups.......including the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice.....filled with anti-gunners....
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
> 
> GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
> 
> GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
> 
> Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)
> 
> CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)
> 
> Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
> 
> --------------------
> 
> 
> Bordua...1977...1,414,544
> 
> DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)
> 
> Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)
> 
> Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
> 
> (Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])
> 
> Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Ohio...1982...771,043
> 
> Gallup...1991...777,152
> 
> Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)
> 
> Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
Click to expand...

Repeating the same thing over and over again will not make it any more than an unsubstantiated assertion. These studies are "exrapolations" based on telephone polling, basically anecdotal. They prove nothing. All they are, are guesses, not facts.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Do you understand that the statistics you just posted are wrong?



I wasn't providing statistics, I was providing one example of "evidence" that contradicts yours, it's easy. All you have is guesswork, not facts. Oh and as for quoting John Lott from 2014, please.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Again....


I suggest you read your own source, it adequately explains possible reasons for the fall in gun crime since the 1990's, gun ownership as a contributing factor seems to be missing from their explanation.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> And the British police say different...


No they don't, just one Chief Constable using emotive language to get more resources from successive Conservative governments who have cut police funding year on year.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....



Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan. 

As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.
> 
> As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.
Click to expand...


You don't believe in the Holocaust?   That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again....
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you read your own source, it adequately explains possible reasons for the fall in gun crime since the 1990's, gun ownership as a contributing factor seems to be missing from their explanation.
Click to expand...



And, you fail to understand what the fall in gun crime and gun murder, in the face of more Americans owning and carrying weapons actually means..........

It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...

That means something else causes gun crime and gun murder to go up.....and here in the U.S. it is the policies of the democrat party...when they continue to release violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again.....

You will understand it better since your drug gangs are on course to increase their violence and gun crime........


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.
> 
> As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't believe in the Holocaust?   That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?
Click to expand...

The notion that had Jews been armed, they could have prevented the Holocaust, is a myth propagated by rabid NRA gun nuts. You only have to look at the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, to see how any Jewish "uprising" would have turned out.

Similarly should your own so called, "militias" ever decide to "rise up agin a tyrannical govmint" my money would be on the Predator drones and Hellfire missiles, AH64s, etc of the US armed forces.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...


"Normal" people can become "abnormal" at any time; domestic violence is committed by and happens to, "normal people"; "normal" people don't have the training or experience to deal with armed criminals intent on murder; "normal" people tend to freeze or panic; even veteran SEALs advise the first thing to do when "civillians" encounter someone with a gun, is to run away and/or hide.
Suicide is also made far easier if there's a firearm readilly available, "normal" people commit suicide from time to time.

Define therefore, who are "normal people".


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...
> 
> 
> 
> "Normal" people can become "abnormal" at any time; domestic violence is committed by and happens to, "normal people"; "normal" people don't have the training or experience to deal with armed criminals intent on murder; "normal" people tend to freeze or panic; even veteran SEALs advise the first thing to do when "civillians" encounter someone with a gun, is to run away and/or hide.
> Suicide is also made far easier if there's a firearm readilly available, "normal" people commit suicide from time to time.
> 
> Define therefore, who are "normal people".
Click to expand...



No, don't...

you don't know what you are talking about.....

The Criminology of Firearms


In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

*Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...
> 
> 
> 
> "Normal" people can become "abnormal" at any time; domestic violence is committed by and happens to, "normal people"; "normal" people don't have the training or experience to deal with armed criminals intent on murder; "normal" people tend to freeze or panic; even veteran SEALs advise the first thing to do when "civillians" encounter someone with a gun, is to run away and/or hide.
> Suicide is also made far easier if there's a firearm readilly available, "normal" people commit suicide from time to time.
> 
> Define therefore, who are "normal people".
Click to expand...



Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to save lives....they are not Navy SEALs, and they do just fine...even that couple in St. Louis, they stopped a violent mob with their guns and never fired a shot....using a gun is not rocket science....and criminals, when faced with armed victims, run away......only 235 or so a year are stupid enough to press the attack against armed good guys, and they die because of that stupidity....

As to domestic violence....you again don't know what you are talking about....those homes are homes with alcoholics, drug addicts and others with histories of crime and violence as well as police contacts...they were never normal, and were never good people....they have long histories of mental issues, hence the drug, alcohol and crime problems...

Nothing you state is true or accurate..


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.
> 
> As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't believe in the Holocaust?   That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The notion that had Jews been armed, they could have prevented the Holocaust, is a myth propagated by rabid NRA gun nuts. You only have to look at the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, to see how any Jewish "uprising" would have turned out.
> 
> Similarly should your own so called, "militias" ever decide to "rise up agin a tyrannical govmint" my money would be on the Predator drones and Hellfire missiles, AH64s, etc of the US armed forces.
Click to expand...



The Warsaw Ghetto......you point to the Warsaw Ghetto where Polish Jews....without guns, were killed.....they had a few and stood against the Germans......

An essentially unarmed population......they had their guns confiscated......you don't know what you are talking about...

*The Warsaw Ghetto uprising......had they actually been as well armed as the Swiss, had all the peoples in Europe been as well armed as the Swiss, the Germans could never have held the territory they captured......that is what armed citizens do...they discourage aggression...

There were 13,000 Jews killed in the uprising...unarmed......if those 13,000 had rifles, the outcome would have been a lot worse for the Germans.....and had that taken place in every country......World War 2 would have been very different...

A German force was tiny compared to 50,000 Jews.....and yet because they were unarmed...that tiny German force was able to destroy them...*

By his own words, Stroop reported that after he took command on 19 April 1943 the forces at his disposal totaled 31 officers and 1,262 men:[51]

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising - Wikipedia


Marek Edelman, who was the only surviving uprising commander from the left-wing ŻOB, stated that the ŻOB had 220 fighters and each was armed with a handgun, grenades, and Molotov cocktails. His organization had three rifles in each area, as well as two land mines and one submachine gun.[20][21][22][23] Due to its socialist leanings, the Soviets promoted the actions of ŻOB as the dominant or only party in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, a view often adopted by secondary sources in the West.[18]

----

*Death toll[edit]*



Stroop Report original caption: "Bandits jump to escape capture." A man leaps to his death from the top story window of an apartment block. Taken at 23 and 25 Niska Street[67]



Plaque commemorating Home Armysoldiers - Eugeniusz Morawski ps. "Młodek" and Józef Wilk ps. "Orlik" killed during the Ghetto Action on the wall Church of St. John of God at ul. Bonifraterska 12 in Warsaw.
13,000 Jews were killed in the ghetto during the uprising (some 6,000 among them were burnt alive or died from smoke inhalation). Of the remaining 50,000 residents, most were captured and shipped to concentration and extermination camps, in particular to Treblinka.

Jürgen Stroop's internal SS daily report for Friedrich Krüger, written on 16 May 1943, stated:

180 Jews, bandits and sub-humans, were destroyed. The former Jewish quarter of Warsaw is no longer in existence. The large-scale action was terminated at 20:15 hours by blowing up the Warsaw Synagogue. ... Total number of Jews dealt with 56,065, including both Jews caught and Jews whose extermination can be proved. ... Apart from 8 buildings (police barracks, hospital, and accommodations for housing working-parties) the former Ghetto is completely destroyed. Only the dividing walls are left standing where no explosions were carried out.[42]

According to the casualty lists in Stroop's report, German forces suffered a total of 110 casualties – 17 dead (of whom 16 were killed in action) and 93 injured – of whom 101 are listed by name, including over 60 members of the Waffen-SS. These figures did not include Jewish collaborators, but did include the "Trawniki men" and Polish police under his command. The real number of German losses, however, may be well higher (the Germans suffered about 300 casualties by Edelman's estimate). For propaganda purposes, the official announcement claimed the German casualties to be only a few wounded, while propaganda bulletins of the Polish Underground Stateannounced that hundreds of occupiers had been killed in the fighting.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.
> 
> As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't believe in the Holocaust?   That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The notion that had Jews been armed, they could have prevented the Holocaust, is a myth propagated by rabid NRA gun nuts. You only have to look at the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, to see how any Jewish "uprising" would have turned out.
> 
> Similarly should your own so called, "militias" ever decide to "rise up agin a tyrannical govmint" my money would be on the Predator drones and Hellfire missiles, AH64s, etc of the US armed forces.
Click to expand...



You don't know what you are talking about....Europe essentially disarmed its civilians....allowing the Germans to occupy all of that territory without any resistance after they defeated the weak European nations.....and their philosophy of appeasement....

One Country was ready......and had 435,000 civilians armed with rifles to resist......

THE SWISS WERE PREPARED TO FIGHT FACISM TO THE BITTER END | FRONTLINE | PBS

Tom Bower's _Nazi Gold _requires a historical reality check ("What happened to all that money?"). The thesis of this tabloid-level book is that Switzerland was an ally of the Nazis when, in fact, this small neutral country was the only European country Hitler was afraid to invade.



Winston Churchill wrote in 1944: "Of all the neutrals Switzerland has the greatest right to distinction...She has been a democratic State, standing for freedom in self-defense among her mountains, and in thought, in spite of race, largely on our side."

That is why the Nazis despised Switzerland. Joseph Goebbels called Switzerland "this stinking little state" where "sentiment has turned very much against us." Adolf Hitler decided that "all the rubbish of small nations still existing in Europe must be liquidated," even if it meant he would later "be attacked as the 'Butcher of the Swiss.'"

The 1940 Nazi invasion plan, Operation Tannenbaum, was not executed, and SS Oberst Hermann Bohme's 1943 memorandum warned that an invasion of Switzerland would be too costly because every man was armed and trained to shoot. This did not stop the Gestapo from preparing lists of Swiss to be liquidated once the Nazis overran the country.

The other European nations were easily toppled and had little means to wage a partisan war against the occupation. Once their standing armies were defeated, the governments capitulated and the populaces were defenseless.

*Only in Switzerland was the entire populace armed and prepared to wage a relentless guerrilla war against an invader.*

When the war began in 1939, Switzerland mobilized 435,000 citizen soldiers out of a population of 4.2 million. 

*Production figures for Swiss service rifles, which had firepower equal to those of the Germans, demonstrate an ample supply of small arms.*


 Swiss militiamen were instructed to disregard any alleged "official" surrender as enemy propaganda and, if necessary, to fight individually. This meant that a nation of sharpshooters would be sniping at German soldiers at long ranges from every mountain.

While neutral, Switzerland was prepared to fight a Nazi invasion to the end. The celebrated Swiss Gen. Henri Guisan developed the strategy known as defense du reduit--an initial opposition followed by a retreat into the Alps, where a relentless war to the death would be waged. Most Swiss strongly opposed Nazism. Death sentences were issued for fifth-column activities, and proclamations against anti-Semitism were passed at various official levels. There was no Holocaust on Swiss soil, something that can not be said for France, the Netherlands, Poland or most of Europe.


----------



## 2aguy

Which British gun control law kept this shooter from walking into a school, a church (if they still have them in Britain...sure a mosque, but a "Church?")  a mall, or a theater?

And shooting in the middle of the day, in gun free Britain?

A man in his early 20s has died of gunshot injuries after a shooting in broad daylight near a children’s playground in north London. Metropolitan Police were called at 3.20pm to Roman Way in Islington, north London, following reports of shots fired on Saturday. Officers tried to save the man, but he was pronounced dead at the scene. His next of kin has been informed. A local has claimed he heard multiple gunshots before seeing someone on a moped speeding away from the area.


Read more: Man shot dead next to children's playground in broad daylight

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro









						Man shot dead next to children's playground in broad daylight
					

A witness has claimed he saw a moped driver speeding away from the scene.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## Tommy Tainant

There was a stabbing in London a few days ago. Why havent you picked up on this ?


----------



## TheParser

1. British cops, I understand, have traditionally NOT carried firearms.

a. Supposedly, there has long been a gentlemen's agreement that British crooks do not shoot their "bobbies."

2. As some other contributors to this thread have pointed out, however,  gun violence is increasing because of immigration, which brings in many people who do not share traditional British cultural values.

3. I have read that many people in London are leaving that city for the north of England because of the increased level of crime.

Sad.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> There was a stabbing in London a few days ago. Why havent you picked up on this ?




Knives are not my issue.......the Right to self defense is my issue, and guns are the most effective tool for law abiding people to protect themselves from common criminals and the terrorist wings of political parties......


----------



## Vagabond63

TheParser said:


> 1. British cops, I understand, have traditionally NOT carried firearms.
> 
> a. Supposedly, there has long been a gentlemen's agreement that British crooks do not shoot their "bobbies."
> 
> 2. As some other contributors to this thread have pointed out, however,  gun violence is increasing because of immigration, which brings in many people who do not share traditional British cultural values.
> 
> 3. I have read that many people in London are leaving that city for the north of England because of the increased level of crime.
> 
> Sad.


1. Not true, Police over here have always had access to firearms, they just were not routinely issued with them on a daily basis.
2. Really? Gun violence in the UK is restricted to drugs gangs, some of whom might be immigrants, true, but they are mainly native born.
3. Either that, or the fact they can buy property far more cheaply than in London; you can buy a 3 bedroom house in the provinces for the price of a 1 bedroom flat in the city.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aGuy said:
			
		

> you don't know what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms




Oh look, Don Kates, another NRA schill, who’s so called “research” was thoroughly debunked years ago; a lawyer retained by the NRA to promote their agenda who cherry picked data to pursue the NRA’s agenda. You must be getting desperate.



			
				2aGuy said:
			
		

> Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to save lives…



No they don’t, just more of your regurgitated BS. You must be getting desperate.



			
				2aGuy said:
			
		

> Nothing you state is true or accurate..



Now you are projecting. You must be getting desperate.



			
				2aGuy said:
			
		

> The Warsaw Ghetto......you point to the Warsaw Ghetto where Polish Jews....without guns, were killed.....they had a few and stood against the Germans......
> 
> An essentially unarmed population......they had their guns confiscated......you don't know what you are talking about...



You really need to read the whole article and not just cherry pick information…wait, what, wow, you are channelling Don Kates, figures.



			
				2aGuy said:
			
		

> One Country was ready......and had 435,000 civilians armed with rifles to resist......



ROFL! Now you invoke the Swiss? Guess what? Swiss militia soldiers are allowed to keep their assault rifles in their homes, but they are not allowed to have any ammunition for them; that’s kept in local arsenals and in any event they are not allowed to use their military firearms for self defence. Many militia soldiers store their guns disassembled in different parts of their homes. When civilian Swiss shooters go to their firing ranges, they can only buy ammunition on site, and any unused rounds must be returned to the range officials before they leave the range. The Swiss are generally contemptuous of American gun culture and especially the American NRA (much the same as our own NRA in the UK, who hold similar views on the American NRA).

Hey, there’s the solution to your 2nd amendment problem…ammunition control! There solved it for you, you can relax and play with your guns in your bedrooms in peace.


----------



## wamose

JoeB131 said:


> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.


I just wanted to see how quickly someone would equate this GB shooting to Trump. Congratulations you win and it only took 5 posts.  And as a bonus you also equate the pandemic, the recession and the riots to Trump. Great job.  It kind of reminds me of how losers always blame something else for their own failures. As for the shooting in GB, I'll barrow a line  Pelosi used when asked what she thought about tearing down the Columbus statue in Baltimore. She said "people will do what they do'. Now there's a stupid thing for a legislator to say.  So if her job doesn't include providing Americans with safety and security, what exactly is her job beside resisting?


----------



## Cellblock2429

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
Click to expand...

/——/ As usual, the point went over your head. You Gun grabbers claim gun control will eliminate shootings. This is just more proof you’re dead wrong.


----------



## Cellblock2429

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you don't know what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh look, Don Kates, another NRA schill, who’s so called “research” was thoroughly debunked years ago; a lawyer retained by the NRA to promote their agenda who cherry picked data to pursue the NRA’s agenda. You must be getting desperate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to save lives…
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No they don’t, just more of your regurgitated BS. You must be getting desperate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing you state is true or accurate..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now you are projecting. You must be getting desperate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Warsaw Ghetto......you point to the Warsaw Ghetto where Polish Jews....without guns, were killed.....they had a few and stood against the Germans......
> 
> An essentially unarmed population......they had their guns confiscated......you don't know what you are talking about...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really need to read the whole article and not just cherry pick information…wait, what, wow, you are channelling Don Kates, figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One Country was ready......and had 435,000 civilians armed with rifles to resist......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL! Now you invoke the Swiss? Guess what? Swiss militia soldiers are allowed to keep their assault rifles in their homes, but they are not allowed to have any ammunition for them; that’s kept in local arsenals and in any event they are not allowed to use their military firearms for self defence. Many militia soldiers store their guns disassembled in different parts of their homes. When civilian Swiss shooters go to their firing ranges, they can only buy ammunition on site, and any unused rounds must be returned to the range officials before they leave the range. The Swiss are generally contemptuous of American gun culture and especially the American NRA (much the same as our own NRA in the UK, who hold similar views on the American NRA).
> 
> Hey, there’s the solution to your 2nd amendment problem…ammunition control! There solved it for you, you can relax and play with your guns in your bedrooms in peace.
Click to expand...

/—-/ OK, I’ll take your option because we can always get ammo, one way or the other. BTW, here are the facts about the Swiss gun laws in their entirety, not your edited rant: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you don't know what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh look, Don Kates, another NRA schill, who’s so called “research” was thoroughly debunked years ago; a lawyer retained by the NRA to promote their agenda who cherry picked data to pursue the NRA’s agenda. You must be getting desperate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to save lives…
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No they don’t, just more of your regurgitated BS. You must be getting desperate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing you state is true or accurate..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now you are projecting. You must be getting desperate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Warsaw Ghetto......you point to the Warsaw Ghetto where Polish Jews....without guns, were killed.....they had a few and stood against the Germans......
> 
> An essentially unarmed population......they had their guns confiscated......you don't know what you are talking about...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really need to read the whole article and not just cherry pick information…wait, what, wow, you are channelling Don Kates, figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One Country was ready......and had 435,000 civilians armed with rifles to resist......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFL! Now you invoke the Swiss? Guess what? Swiss militia soldiers are allowed to keep their assault rifles in their homes, but they are not allowed to have any ammunition for them; that’s kept in local arsenals and in any event they are not allowed to use their military firearms for self defence. Many militia soldiers store their guns disassembled in different parts of their homes. When civilian Swiss shooters go to their firing ranges, they can only buy ammunition on site, and any unused rounds must be returned to the range officials before they leave the range. The Swiss are generally contemptuous of American gun culture and especially the American NRA (much the same as our own NRA in the UK, who hold similar views on the American NRA).
> 
> Hey, there’s the solution to your 2nd amendment problem…ammunition control! There solved it for you, you can relax and play with your guns in your bedrooms in peace.
Click to expand...



You still don't know what you are talking about.

The 1.2 million defensive uses was discovered by the Centers for Disease Control when they tried to debunk Dr. Gary Kleck's number.   The Department of Justice also did the same research, independently, hiring 2 anti-gun researchers....and they found the 1.5 million times a year.....you twit.

The Warsaw Ghetto held off the Germans and they had very few guns.....had the countries in Europe been as well armed as U.S. citizens, the socialists could never have held the territory they took, and it would have made World War 2 impossible.

And, moron, the Swiss can't keep military supplied ammunition in their homes, but that doesn't keep them from getting their own ammunition...you twit....and again

More guns in Swiss hands does not equal more crime or mass public shootings......with fully automatic military weapons..

The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works | TIME.com

*The authorities made one concession, though: since 2008, all military — *but not private* — ammunition must be stored in central arsenals rather than in soldiers’ homes. The debate culminated in a nationwide referendum last year, when 56% of voters rejected the proposal initiated by anti-gun organizations to ban army rifles from homes altogether.


-----------

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation.

Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. 

The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section.
*
*Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, *while others choose to leave them at the club.* And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson.*
*
=======

The Swiss have remained one of the best armed countries in the world since then. Many claim they escaped most of the ravages of WWII because of their citizen army.
Switzerland is said not to “have an army” but “be an army.” Because of their universal training and weaponry, Switzerland has the largest potential army in Europe: 1.5 million men capable of bearing arms, who have the arms and ammunition and training.
After the current spate of terrorist attacks in Europe, the Swiss are buying even more guns.From usatoday.com:*


> *GENEVA — Business at Daniel Wyss’ gun shop has been brisk lately in the village of Burgdorf near Switzerland’s capital of Bern.
> He said the increased demand for firearms is triggered by a growing fear among the Swiss public that terrorists could attack their tranquil land at any time.
> As nations around Europe tighten their gun laws after a series of terror attacks in several countries since 2015, the Swiss are bucking this trend by turning to firearms for protection.
> Official statistics show that gun sales in some parts of Switzerland soared nearly 50% after last year’s attacks in Paris and the March bombings in Brussels. And gun sales continue to grow since the killings in France and Germany in the past two weeks.*
> *In Wyss’ shop, “the demand for pistols, revolvers and pump-action guns rose by 30% to 50% after this month’s attacks in Nice and Munich,” he told USA TODAY.*


----------



## Vagabond63

Cellblock2429 said:


> OK, I’ll take your option because we can always get ammo, one way or the other.



Good luck with that.



Cellblock2429 said:


> BTW, here are the facts about the Swiss gun laws in their entirety, not your edited rant: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia



Thank you for making my point. Switzerland has arguably the most rigorous gun control regime anywhere, which means only responsible, well trained citizens can have firearms; in direct contrast with America's pathetic hit and miss regime which means that just about anyone can get a gun easily, from "fine upstanding citizens" all the way over to "criminal low life". Gun control works.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I’ll take your option because we can always get ammo, one way or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, here are the facts about the Swiss gun laws in their entirety, not your edited rant: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for making my point. Switzerland has arguably the most rigorous gun control regime anywhere, which means only responsible, well trained citizens can have firearms; in direct contrast with America's pathetic hit and miss regime which means that just about anyone can get a gun easily, from "fine upstanding citizens" all the way over to "criminal low life". Gun control works.
Click to expand...



Moron......they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes.......they can have as much private ammo as they want........which Swiss gun control law stops them from taking the fully automatic military weapon....which they already have in their possession, and all the private ammo they can carry...to the nearest school, church, mall or theater?


You are an idiot.......

Again....as more Americans own and actually carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%...

How do you explain that?   You hide from answering that question because your theory is wrong....and doesn't explain anything.......it falls apart with the most basic questions..............

Gun crime in the United States is also focused almost exclusively to gangs in democrat party controlled cities, because of their policies on criminals and police.......our gun crime has nothing to do with normal people who own and carry guns..

YOu are wrong.....and don't have any idea what you are talking about.

I also notice you ignore the point that the Swiss can have all the private ammo they want...thus wrecking your entire point about the Swiss having fully automatic military rifles in their homes......you twit.

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*



The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....

*More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.*

Actual Result:

*In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72% 

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....*

In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.

Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
=============

Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously

In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:


> _Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime._


Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.

After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
-------

Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:


> _César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office._


The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:


> _Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday._


When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.


----------



## NoNukes

Hey idiot, how often does this happen in the UK. And try to be honest.


2aguy said:


> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


----------



## NoNukes

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I’ll take your option because we can always get ammo, one way or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, here are the facts about the Swiss gun laws in their entirety, not your edited rant: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for making my point. Switzerland has arguably the most rigorous gun control regime anywhere, which means only responsible, well trained citizens can have firearms; in direct contrast with America's pathetic hit and miss regime which means that just about anyone can get a gun easily, from "fine upstanding citizens" all the way over to "criminal low life". Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron......they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes.......they can have as much private ammo as they want........which Swiss gun control law stops them from taking the fully automatic military weapon....which they already have in their possession, and all the private ammo they can carry...to the nearest school, church, mall or theater?
> 
> 
> You are an idiot.......
> 
> Again....as more Americans own and actually carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%...
> 
> How do you explain that?   You hide from answering that question because your theory is wrong....and doesn't explain anything.......it falls apart with the most basic questions..............
> 
> Gun crime in the United States is also focused almost exclusively to gangs in democrat party controlled cities, because of their policies on criminals and police.......our gun crime has nothing to do with normal people who own and carry guns..
> 
> YOu are wrong.....and don't have any idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I also notice you ignore the point that the Swiss can have all the private ammo they want...thus wrecking your entire point about the Swiss having fully automatic military rifles in their homes......you twit.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> *Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*
> 
> 
> 
> The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....
> 
> *More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.*
> 
> Actual Result:
> 
> *In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%
> 
> The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....*
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.
> 
> Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction
> 
> When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.
> 
> 
> 
> One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.
> 
> Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.
> 
> 
> 
> Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.
> 
> In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.
> 
> In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”
> 
> The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.
> 
> Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
> =============
> 
> Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously
> 
> In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.
> 
> After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
> -------
> 
> Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.
Click to expand...

The Swiss had to hand in their guns and ammunition years ago.


----------



## 2aguy

NoNukes said:


> Hey idiot, how often does this happen in the UK. And try to be honest.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...



Not often....why?  Because their criminals don't use guns to spray and pray the way American criminals do.  The British criminals have access to guns, they don't use them to murder each other as often as American gangs do in democrat party controlled cities.

You moron...you don't understand what the issue is.

Before they banned and confiscated guns in Britain, they had low levels of gun violence.........which you don't understand....then, after they banned and confiscated guns........their gun crime rate did not change....you moron....

That means...since you are slow.....that gun control had no effect on their criminals and how they used their guns..........

Now....the immigrant gangs running British drug turf are using guns and they don't care about British culture or laws......so they are going to get more violent and use their guns more and more.....


----------



## 2aguy

NoNukes said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I’ll take your option because we can always get ammo, one way or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, here are the facts about the Swiss gun laws in their entirety, not your edited rant: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for making my point. Switzerland has arguably the most rigorous gun control regime anywhere, which means only responsible, well trained citizens can have firearms; in direct contrast with America's pathetic hit and miss regime which means that just about anyone can get a gun easily, from "fine upstanding citizens" all the way over to "criminal low life". Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron......they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes.......they can have as much private ammo as they want........which Swiss gun control law stops them from taking the fully automatic military weapon....which they already have in their possession, and all the private ammo they can carry...to the nearest school, church, mall or theater?
> 
> 
> You are an idiot.......
> 
> Again....as more Americans own and actually carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%...
> 
> How do you explain that?   You hide from answering that question because your theory is wrong....and doesn't explain anything.......it falls apart with the most basic questions..............
> 
> Gun crime in the United States is also focused almost exclusively to gangs in democrat party controlled cities, because of their policies on criminals and police.......our gun crime has nothing to do with normal people who own and carry guns..
> 
> YOu are wrong.....and don't have any idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I also notice you ignore the point that the Swiss can have all the private ammo they want...thus wrecking your entire point about the Swiss having fully automatic military rifles in their homes......you twit.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> *Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*
> 
> 
> 
> The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....
> 
> *More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.*
> 
> Actual Result:
> 
> *In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%
> 
> The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....*
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.
> 
> Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction
> 
> When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.
> 
> 
> 
> One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.
> 
> Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.
> 
> 
> 
> Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.
> 
> In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.
> 
> In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”
> 
> The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.
> 
> Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
> =============
> 
> Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously
> 
> In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.
> 
> After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
> -------
> 
> Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Swiss had to hand in their guns and ammunition years ago.
Click to expand...



Wrong.


----------



## 2aguy

NoNukes said:


> Hey idiot, how often does this happen in the UK. And try to be honest.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...



So.....which British gun control law kept these shooters, in Britain, from killing a bunch of kids in a public school?

Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears

*Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
*
---------------------------




.4/6/18

Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed

A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.

Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year. 

The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.

Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
=======



Here is the updat, the original is below..

Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........

I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?



-------------

British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack

Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'

15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
=======


'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside

Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.

Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.

The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.

He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.



Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
*
*Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*

*Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Moron......they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes.......they can have as much private ammo as they want........which Swiss gun control law stops them from taking the fully automatic military weapon....which they already have in their possession, and all the private ammo they can carry...to the nearest school, church, mall or theater?



This one and subsequent legislation: SR 514.54 Bundesgesetz vom 20. Juni 1997 über Waffen, Waffenzubehör und Munition (Waffengesetz, WG)
Oh, FYI, in 2004 only 43% of ex-soldiers kept their military rifles at home, by 2015 this number dropped to 11%.



2aguy said:


> Again....as more Americans own and actually carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%...
> 
> How do you explain that?



You still haven't read your own link have you? The article you quote provides several reasons why the gun murder rate went down; gun ownership wasn't one of them. I can equally argue based on your logic that since 1997 when handguns were banned in the UK our gun deaths dropped by 50% and our gun murder rate by 60% (I know you love your percentages)



2aguy said:


> I also notice you ignore the point that the Swiss can have all the private ammo they want...thus wrecking your entire point about the Swiss having fully automatic military rifles in their homes......you twit.



Not without the required permits. All ammunition sales are monitored and recorded, if you buy ammunition at a range, any unfired bullets have to be returned before you leave; oh, and handgun permits are only valid for 9 months. After that time the owner has to re-apply or sell their gun. Every Canton in Switzerland carefully monitors all firearms in their jurisdiction and you cannot carry a gun in public without another special permit.

Switzerland has some of the most rigorous gun controls in Europe, without actually impinging on people's ability to shoot for sport and recreation (or national defence, for that matter). The USA (and the UK for that matter) could learn a lot from the Swiss without messing with your 2nd Ammendment rights.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey idiot, how often does this happen in the UK. And try to be honest.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So.....which British gun control law kept these shooters, in Britain, from killing a bunch of kids in a public school?
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the updat, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester*
> 
> *Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.
> 
> Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
Click to expand...

Oh, dear, not this BS again. Luck had nothing to do with it. The fantasists you mention had a more difficult time getting their guns because of our gun controls. If they lived in the US they just have to walk into a supermarket and put the gun(s) of their choice into their trolley. Shotguns and rifles are NOT illegal in the UK.


----------



## Cellblock2429

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey idiot, how often does this happen in the UK. And try to be honest.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So.....which British gun control law kept these shooters, in Britain, from killing a bunch of kids in a public school?
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the updat, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester*
> 
> *Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.
> 
> Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, dear, not this BS again. Luck had nothing to do with it. The fantasists you mention had a more difficult time getting their guns because of our gun controls. If they lived in the US they just have to walk into a supermarket and put the gun(s) of their choice into their trolley. Shotguns and rifles are NOT illegal in the UK.
Click to expand...

/——/ Supermarkets don’t  sell guns and we use shopping carts, not trollies. A trolly is a street level electric train.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey idiot, how often does this happen in the UK. And try to be honest.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So.....which British gun control law kept these shooters, in Britain, from killing a bunch of kids in a public school?
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the updat, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester*
> 
> *Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.
> 
> Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, dear, not this BS again. Luck had nothing to do with it. The fantasists you mention had a more difficult time getting their guns because of our gun controls. If they lived in the US they just have to walk into a supermarket and put the gun(s) of their choice into their trolley. Shotguns and rifles are NOT illegal in the UK.
Click to expand...



Luck......since criminals have easy access to guns in Britain, they just don't use them to commit murder as often.....

Again...

Explain...how is it that in the U.S. as more Americans own and actually carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%....

You need to explain that.....

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.



The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....

*More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.*

Actual Result:

*In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72% 

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....*

In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.



Whatever the crime rate does......as more Americans owned more guns the crime rate did not go up....so again...



Britain...
*More Guns = More Gun Crime

Britain had access to guns before they banned them.....they had low gun crime, low gun murder.

They banned guns, the gun murder rate spiked for 10 years then returned to the same level...

Your Theory again....

More guns = More Gun Crime

Guns Banned creates no change?   That means banning guns for law abiding gun owners had no effect on gun crime.

When your theory states one thing, and you implement your theory, and nothing changes....in science, that means your theory is wrong...
-------*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron......they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes.......they can have as much private ammo as they want........which Swiss gun control law stops them from taking the fully automatic military weapon....which they already have in their possession, and all the private ammo they can carry...to the nearest school, church, mall or theater?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one and subsequent legislation: SR 514.54 Bundesgesetz vom 20. Juni 1997 über Waffen, Waffenzubehör und Munition (Waffengesetz, WG)
> Oh, FYI, in 2004 only 43% of ex-soldiers kept their military rifles at home, by 2015 this number dropped to 11%.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again....as more Americans own and actually carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%...
> 
> How do you explain that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You still haven't read your own link have you? The article you quote provides several reasons why the gun murder rate went down; gun ownership wasn't one of them. I can equally argue based on your logic that since 1997 when handguns were banned in the UK our gun deaths dropped by 50% and our gun murder rate by 60% (I know you love your percentages)
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also notice you ignore the point that the Swiss can have all the private ammo they want...thus wrecking your entire point about the Swiss having fully automatic military rifles in their homes......you twit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not without the required permits. All ammunition sales are monitored and recorded, if you buy ammunition at a range, any unfired bullets have to be returned before you leave; oh, and handgun permits are only valid for 9 months. After that time the owner has to re-apply or sell their gun. Every Canton in Switzerland carefully monitors all firearms in their jurisdiction and you cannot carry a gun in public without another special permit.
> 
> Switzerland has some of the most rigorous gun controls in Europe, without actually impinging on people's ability to shoot for sport and recreation (or national defence, for that matter). The USA (and the UK for that matter) could learn a lot from the Swiss without messing with your 2nd Ammendment rights.
Click to expand...



Dip shit......you have fully automatic military weapons in the hands of Swiss civilians.....and yet they don't walk around shooting people...

It isn't access to guns that causes gun crime.....it is the willingness to use them for crime.......

If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control  laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?

Can you answer that?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron......they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes.......they can have as much private ammo as they want........which Swiss gun control law stops them from taking the fully automatic military weapon....which they already have in their possession, and all the private ammo they can carry...to the nearest school, church, mall or theater?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one and subsequent legislation: SR 514.54 Bundesgesetz vom 20. Juni 1997 über Waffen, Waffenzubehör und Munition (Waffengesetz, WG)
> Oh, FYI, in 2004 only 43% of ex-soldiers kept their military rifles at home, by 2015 this number dropped to 11%.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again....as more Americans own and actually carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%...
> 
> How do you explain that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You still haven't read your own link have you? The article you quote provides several reasons why the gun murder rate went down; gun ownership wasn't one of them. I can equally argue based on your logic that since 1997 when handguns were banned in the UK our gun deaths dropped by 50% and our gun murder rate by 60% (I know you love your percentages)
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also notice you ignore the point that the Swiss can have all the private ammo they want...thus wrecking your entire point about the Swiss having fully automatic military rifles in their homes......you twit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not without the required permits. All ammunition sales are monitored and recorded, if you buy ammunition at a range, any unfired bullets have to be returned before you leave; oh, and handgun permits are only valid for 9 months. After that time the owner has to re-apply or sell their gun. Every Canton in Switzerland carefully monitors all firearms in their jurisdiction and you cannot carry a gun in public without another special permit.
> 
> Switzerland has some of the most rigorous gun controls in Europe, without actually impinging on people's ability to shoot for sport and recreation (or national defence, for that matter). The USA (and the UK for that matter) could learn a lot from the Swiss without messing with your 2nd Ammendment rights.
Click to expand...



What you fail to understand, you doofus...it that your entire argument is 

More guns = More gun crime....


In America, as more Americans own and actually carry guns....we had less gun crime..

So the point of the Pew information is that more guns in the hands of normal people does not increase gun crime or gun murder....

Making you whole point completely wrong...you twit.

And actual research shows that as more people own and carry guns, criminals change their criminal behavior...changing from robbing and attacking people to moving into property crime, burglary vs robbery...you twit.


----------



## NoNukes

2aguy said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey idiot, how often does this happen in the UK. And try to be honest.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right?  Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?
> 
> 4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....
> 
> A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.
> 
> The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head
> 
> 
> Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not often....why?  Because their criminals don't use guns to spray and pray the way American criminals do.  The British criminals have access to guns, they don't use them to murder each other as often as American gangs do in democrat party controlled cities.
> 
> You moron...you don't understand what the issue is.
> 
> Before they banned and confiscated guns in Britain, they had low levels of gun violence.........which you don't understand....then, after they banned and confiscated guns........their gun crime rate did not change....you moron....
> 
> That means...since you are slow.....that gun control had no effect on their criminals and how they used their guns..........
> 
> Now....the immigrant gangs running British drug turf are using guns and they don't care about British culture or laws......so they are going to get more violent and use their guns more and more.....
Click to expand...

You have some nerve calling someone a moron.


----------



## NoNukes

2aguy said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I’ll take your option because we can always get ammo, one way or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Cellblock2429 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, here are the facts about the Swiss gun laws in their entirety, not your edited rant: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for making my point. Switzerland has arguably the most rigorous gun control regime anywhere, which means only responsible, well trained citizens can have firearms; in direct contrast with America's pathetic hit and miss regime which means that just about anyone can get a gun easily, from "fine upstanding citizens" all the way over to "criminal low life". Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron......they have fully automatic military weapons in their homes.......they can have as much private ammo as they want........which Swiss gun control law stops them from taking the fully automatic military weapon....which they already have in their possession, and all the private ammo they can carry...to the nearest school, church, mall or theater?
> 
> 
> You are an idiot.......
> 
> Again....as more Americans own and actually carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%....our gun crime rate went down 75%...
> 
> How do you explain that?   You hide from answering that question because your theory is wrong....and doesn't explain anything.......it falls apart with the most basic questions..............
> 
> Gun crime in the United States is also focused almost exclusively to gangs in democrat party controlled cities, because of their policies on criminals and police.......our gun crime has nothing to do with normal people who own and carry guns..
> 
> YOu are wrong.....and don't have any idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I also notice you ignore the point that the Swiss can have all the private ammo they want...thus wrecking your entire point about the Swiss having fully automatic military rifles in their homes......you twit.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> *Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*
> 
> 
> 
> The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....
> 
> *More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.*
> 
> Actual Result:
> 
> *In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%
> 
> The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....*
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.
> 
> Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction
> 
> When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.
> 
> 
> 
> One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.
> 
> Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.
> 
> 
> 
> Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.
> 
> In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.
> 
> In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”
> 
> The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.
> 
> Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
> =============
> 
> Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously
> 
> In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.
> 
> After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
> -------
> 
> Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:
> 
> 
> 
> _Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Swiss had to hand in their guns and ammunition years ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
Click to expand...

Right.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

2aguy said:


> Can you answer that?



He tried, see the drool dripping from his mouth?
Probably just another Communist Anti-American dumbass rooting for China.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

The UK is far more dangerous than is reported.
In the UK, the government ACTIVELY suppresses crime statistics.
This is also done in California, NewYork and most Leftist states.    Honesty and transparency kills them.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Dip shit......you have fully automatic military weapons in the hands of Swiss civilians.....and yet they don't walk around shooting people...



No you don't, that's the point. 

You have highly trained and very well disciplined citizen soldiers (and ex-soldiers who are liable for call up in the case of national emergency). Since 2008 they do not have access to ammunition for their weapons; such ammunition is stored in sealed containers at local arsenals. If Swiss "civilians" want to shoot their semi-auto versions, they must buy ammunition from the firing range and return any unspent rounds before they can leave the range. 

If America had the same system in place since 1776, your "gun culture" would probably mirror that of the Swiss and no-one would need to carry guns for "self-defence".


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> What you fail to understand, you doofus...it that your entire argument is "More guns = More gun crime..."



No. that has never been my "argument"; that's a projection of your gun control arguments in America onto the UK. 

I'm for responsible gun ownership for recreation only; all guns need to be carefully licensed and strictly controlled, for the sake of a safer society.


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> The UK is far more dangerous than is reported.



Prove it.



BasicHumanUnit said:


> In the UK, the government ACTIVELY suppresses crime statistics.



Prove it.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> In America, as more Americans own and actually carry guns....we had less gun crime..



How do you know? You don't register every gun with every owner or strictly monitor sales of firearms. For all you know, those "18.6 million" gun owners you keep quoting own all the "legal" guns in America between them.

Such as this chap. I count 20 firearms in the photo, multiply that by 18.6 million you get 372 million guns, roughly the number of civilian guns in America.




Clearly not everyone in America is such a paranoid coward and many people own  fewer, but the again, many will own lots more. Without gun control, all your claims about guns cannot be substantiated. Basically you are talking bollocks.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In America, as more Americans own and actually carry guns....we had less gun crime..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know? You don't register every gun with every owner or strictly monitor sales of firearms. For all you know, those "18.6 million" gun owners you keep quoting own all the "legal" guns in America between them.
> 
> Such as this chap. I count 20 firearms in the photo, multiply that by 18.6 million you get 372 million guns, roughly the number of civilian guns in America.
> View attachment 363661
> Clearly not everyone in America is such a paranoid coward and many people own  fewer, but the again, many will own lots more. Without gun control, all your claims about guns cannot be substantiated. Basically you are talking bollocks.
Click to expand...



You don't understand the issue...which is why you are always wrong.

That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both.  That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.

Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns.....and if you believe that all those guns are just in a few hands, I have a Bridge in London I would like to sell you...bit of an antique, but it is still very nice......

And as we went from 4.7 million people with permits to carry guns for self defense in the 1990s to over 18.6 million in 2020...

Our gun murder rate went down 49%...

How do you explain that?

Our gun crime rate went down 75%.......

How do you explain that?

Our violent crime rate went down 72%...

How do you explain that?

You can't explain, with your feelings on gun ownership.....how it is that as more Americans not only own but also carry guns, our gun crime rate went down instead of up.....you can't explain that.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Vagabond63 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> The UK is far more dangerous than is reported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the UK, the government ACTIVELY suppresses crime statistics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Prove it.
Click to expand...


Already did.  Guess you missed it.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you fail to understand, you doofus...it that your entire argument is "More guns = More gun crime..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. that has never been my "argument"; that's a projection of your gun control arguments in America onto the UK.
> 
> I'm for responsible gun ownership for recreation only; all guns need to be carefully licensed and strictly controlled, for the sake of a safer society.
Click to expand...



And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....

From Politifact...

*For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*

*For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*









						PolitiFact - Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does
					

The debate over gun policy has inspired a blizzard of messages on social media, from both supporters and opponents of gu




					www.politifact.com


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Vagabond63 said:


> No. that has never been my "argument"; that's a projection of your gun control arguments in America onto the UK.
> 
> I'm for responsible gun ownership for recreation only; all guns need to be carefully licensed and strictly controlled, for the sake of a safer society.



Oh, you mean like Sweden?

lmao


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you fail to understand, you doofus...it that your entire argument is "More guns = More gun crime..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. that has never been my "argument"; that's a projection of your gun control arguments in America onto the UK.
> 
> I'm for responsible gun ownership for recreation only; all guns need to be carefully licensed and strictly controlled, for the sake of a safer society.
Click to expand...



Our society has 600 million guns and over 18.6 million Americans can carry guns for self defense......

Our gun murder rate went down 49%

Our gun crime rate went down 75%.

Our violent crime rate went down 72%.

So....without licensing and with more Americans carrying guns......our crime rates went down........

You will find out, as time goes by and your immigrant gangs start killing each other in larger numbers, that your laws don't do anything to stop criminals from getting and using guns...


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

The UK is FAR more dangerous than the US

Look, the day we let the Communist disarm us is the same day we become4 subjects and persecuted.
No thanks

That said, whenever a hunter "accidentally" kills another hunter, I find it difficult to shed a tear.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Every day we read about stories in "Gun Free" countries of criminals using guns to murder people.

In those countries, everyone is a helpless victim by order of the State.   How nice.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dip shit......you have fully automatic military weapons in the hands of Swiss civilians.....and yet they don't walk around shooting people...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No you don't, that's the point.
> 
> You have highly trained and very well disciplined citizen soldiers (and ex-soldiers who are liable for call up in the case of national emergency). Since 2008 they do not have access to ammunition for their weapons; such ammunition is stored in sealed containers at local arsenals. If Swiss "civilians" want to shoot their semi-auto versions, they must buy ammunition from the firing range and return any unspent rounds before they can leave the range.
> 
> If America had the same system in place since 1776, your "gun culture" would probably mirror that of the Swiss and no-one would need to carry guns for "self-defence".
Click to expand...


Again...they only have to document military ammunition....they have their private ammunition that they don't have to keep at their military base....so again...which gun law there keeps any of them from taking their military, fully automatic rifles with their private ammunition and shooting up a school.....

You can't show us that law.....since they already have the fully automatic military rifles and ammunition...they just don't do it.....yet.....

Our problem isn't a matter of regulating normal gun owners...as I keep showing you.

More Americans own guns and our gun crime rate went down 75 % our gun murder rate went down 49%.

What you refuse to understand is that our gun crime rate is the direct result of the democrat party here in the U.S. constantly releasing violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again...they are the ones who can't legally own any gun, can't legally carry any gun,  who are the ones using guns for crime.  

This crime is concentrated in the cities completely controlled by the democrat party. 

So your theories have no bearing on anything relating to gun ownership in either country........


----------



## 2aguy

BasicHumanUnit said:


> The UK is FAR more dangerous than the US
> 
> Look, the day we let the Communist disarm us is the same day we become4 subjects and persecuted.
> No thanks
> 
> That said, whenever a hunter "accidentally" kills another hunter, I find it difficult to shed a tear.




And this just in.....

But.....but....why would they have guns?

Automatic weapons?

Automatic Weapons?  In Gun free Britain?

*Organised criminal gangs from Liverpool have risen to the summit of the UK underworld and “dominate” the firearms and drugs-trade outside London, the latest intelligence from senior officers at the National Crime Agency (NCA) reveals.*
*---*
*Analysis of encrypted messages from a communications system used by criminals has shown that the city has become the preeminent location for top-tier **gangs sourcing high-volume importations of drugs and automatic weapons.
------

Analysis by the NFTC found that Merseyside and the broader north-west corridor was home to a network of gun factories converting low-calibre weapons such as the Czech-made Škorpion and Slovakian Grand Power into deadly automatic firearms.*
*
Perfect said that converting weapons was seen by some in the region as a viable business. 

A low-calibre Glock handgun bought for £135 in eastern Europe could be converted in just 90 seconds to a 9mm weapon that could be sold for up to £5,000.
-----
nalysis of the intelligence from EncroChat has revealed other surprises to firearms officers. Perfect said: 

“If you’d asked me before Venetic what was the firearm of choice for an organised crime group, I’d have absolutely said the Glock handgun. Venetic showed that the Škorpion SMG and the Grand Power are now becoming that weapon of choice.”
*
*








						Liverpool gangs 'dominate' gun and drugs trade outside London
					

National Crime Agency uses encrypted chat to uncover gun factories in north-west




					www.theguardian.com
				



*

*And Grenades?  We don't even have that problem here in the U.S.....*

*In some cases grenades were left in the gardens of targets.*


----------



## 2aguy

And this....but........gun control?

Criminals in Britain are losing their fear of the police very quickly........

*A man was shot and a shop worker was injured during a violent chase down a busy north London street.*

*A group with a gun pursued three men along Wood High Road at around 9.45pm on Monday, police said.

One of the three men, aged 27, was shot in the shoulder before he and his two companions rushed into a nearby shop.

Shots were also fired into the shop, leaving member of staff with minor injuries.*

*The suspects then fled the scene in what is believed to be a silver saloon car.
------*

*Investigating officer, DS Mark Attridge, said: “This incident took place on a main road that was busy with traffic and pedestrians.*

*"It was extremely lucky that other members of the public were not harmed.*









						Police appeal after man shot during north London high street chase
					

Police said it was 'extremely lucky that other members of the public were not harmed'




					www.standard.co.uk
				




Which British gun control law kept this guy with the gun from taking that gun, and the bullets, to a local school, mall, theater or church....or Mosque since I don't know if churches are still allowed in Britain...?


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

2aGuy,
We know they're wrong, but it makes no difference.

They most definitely are coming after our guns and I predict (based on past weakness on the Right) they will succeed far beyond expectations.
No one is willing to fight for their freedoms.
Recipe for tyrant victories

It doesn't matter how many Americans die (in fact for them, the more the merrier)


----------



## OnePercenter

2aguy said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.


----------



## 2aguy

OnePercenter said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
Click to expand...



I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...

I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.

This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......

Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.

You implement this with two other things...

1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.

2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......

That is how you stop gun crime over night.

Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.

The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....

It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...

By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....

Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...

This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....

Mass shooters


1) end gun free zones

2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....

3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....

4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....

What does each do to stop mass shooters....

1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.

2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect

3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....

4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

OnePercenter said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
Click to expand...


No, because the left could vote to make speaking about a gun, a "gun crime"
This would have to be carefully written


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

2aguy said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...
> 
> I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.
> 
> This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......
> 
> Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.
> 
> You implement this with two other things...
> 
> 1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.
> 
> 2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......
> 
> That is how you stop gun crime over night.
> 
> Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.
> 
> The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....
> 
> It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...
> 
> By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....
> 
> Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...
> 
> This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....
> 
> Mass shooters
> 
> 
> 1) end gun free zones
> 
> 2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....
> 
> 3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....
> 
> 4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....
> 
> What does each do to stop mass shooters....
> 
> 1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.
> 
> 2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect
> 
> 3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....
> 
> 4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..
Click to expand...


The severe problem with your proposals.......is liberal judges and lawmakers
They could selectively apply these laws to Conservatives only in the court rooms.

In hard left liberal court rooms, this is already happening.
Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.


----------



## 2aguy

BasicHumanUnit said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...
> 
> I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.
> 
> This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......
> 
> Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.
> 
> You implement this with two other things...
> 
> 1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.
> 
> 2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......
> 
> That is how you stop gun crime over night.
> 
> Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.
> 
> The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....
> 
> It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...
> 
> By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....
> 
> Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...
> 
> This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....
> 
> Mass shooters
> 
> 
> 1) end gun free zones
> 
> 2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....
> 
> 3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....
> 
> 4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....
> 
> What does each do to stop mass shooters....
> 
> 1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.
> 
> 2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect
> 
> 3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....
> 
> 4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The severe problem with your proposals.......is liberal judges and lawmakers
> They could selectively apply these laws to Conservatives only in the court rooms.
> 
> In hard left liberal court rooms, this is already happening.
> Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.
Click to expand...



Yep...we can't trust left wing judges or prosecutors.....but the focus needs to be on actual criminals who use guns...that stops gun crime......when the anti-gun extremists focus on normal gun owners, there is no stopping criminal gun use.


----------



## OnePercenter

2aguy said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...
> 
> I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.
> 
> This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......
> 
> Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.
> 
> You implement this with two other things...
> 
> 1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.
> 
> 2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......
> 
> That is how you stop gun crime over night.
> 
> Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.
> 
> The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....
> 
> It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...
> 
> By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....
> 
> Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...
> 
> This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....
> 
> Mass shooters
> 
> 
> 1) end gun free zones
> 
> 2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....
> 
> 3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....
> 
> 4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....
> 
> What does each do to stop mass shooters....
> 
> 1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.
> 
> 2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect
> 
> 3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....
> 
> 4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..
Click to expand...

No, No. Use a gun to commit a crime. Easy to prosecute. Swift justice.


----------



## OnePercenter

BasicHumanUnit said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, because the left could vote to make speaking about a gun, a "gun crime"
> This would have to be carefully written
Click to expand...

USE a gun in the commission of any crime, death penalty.


----------



## OnePercenter

BasicHumanUnit said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...
> 
> I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.
> 
> This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......
> 
> Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.
> 
> You implement this with two other things...
> 
> 1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.
> 
> 2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......
> 
> That is how you stop gun crime over night.
> 
> Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.
> 
> The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....
> 
> It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...
> 
> By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....
> 
> Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...
> 
> This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....
> 
> Mass shooters
> 
> 
> 1) end gun free zones
> 
> 2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....
> 
> 3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....
> 
> 4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....
> 
> What does each do to stop mass shooters....
> 
> 1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.
> 
> 2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect
> 
> 3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....
> 
> 4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The severe problem with your proposals.......is liberal judges and lawmakers
> They could selectively apply these laws to Conservatives only in the court rooms.
> 
> In hard left liberal court rooms, this is already happening.
> Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.
Click to expand...

*Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.*

Why don't you post one of those for a full dissection.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

OnePercenter said:


> USE a gun in the commission of any crime, death penalty.



Too broad.
This could lead to innocent people being put to death by zealous liberal judges and juries.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

OnePercenter said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...
> 
> I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.
> 
> This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......
> 
> Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.
> 
> You implement this with two other things...
> 
> 1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.
> 
> 2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......
> 
> That is how you stop gun crime over night.
> 
> Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.
> 
> The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....
> 
> It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...
> 
> By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....
> 
> Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...
> 
> This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....
> 
> Mass shooters
> 
> 
> 1) end gun free zones
> 
> 2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....
> 
> 3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....
> 
> 4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....
> 
> What does each do to stop mass shooters....
> 
> 1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.
> 
> 2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect
> 
> 3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....
> 
> 4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The severe problem with your proposals.......is liberal judges and lawmakers
> They could selectively apply these laws to Conservatives only in the court rooms.
> 
> In hard left liberal court rooms, this is already happening.
> Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.*
> 
> Why don't you post one of those for a full dissection.
Click to expand...


Easy peasy.....thousands of cases......ever heard of Google?

This New York Man Got Arrested After Defending His Own Home

Now then, you were saying?


----------



## 2aguy

OnePercenter said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...
> 
> I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.
> 
> This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......
> 
> Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.
> 
> You implement this with two other things...
> 
> 1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.
> 
> 2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......
> 
> That is how you stop gun crime over night.
> 
> Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.
> 
> The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....
> 
> It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...
> 
> By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....
> 
> Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...
> 
> This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....
> 
> Mass shooters
> 
> 
> 1) end gun free zones
> 
> 2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....
> 
> 3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....
> 
> 4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....
> 
> What does each do to stop mass shooters....
> 
> 1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.
> 
> 2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect
> 
> 3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....
> 
> 4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The severe problem with your proposals.......is liberal judges and lawmakers
> They could selectively apply these laws to Conservatives only in the court rooms.
> 
> In hard left liberal court rooms, this is already happening.
> Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.*
> 
> Why don't you post one of those for a full dissection.
Click to expand...



Take a Concealed carry class with a good instructor and you can get all the stories you want...


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> You need to explain that.....



Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.



2aguy said:


> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware



One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.


2aguy said:


> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...



When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.



2aguy said:


> More Guns = More Gun Crime



Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%



2aguy said:


> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?



Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?



2aguy said:


> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.



That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.



2aguy said:


> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....



See my response above, how do you know?



2aguy said:


> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...



Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Already did. Guess you missed it.



Really? care to provide a link to that post of yours?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
Click to expand...


One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.

One more time, you aren't paying attention...you are dense, or pretending not to understand.....

The point you are refusing to acknowledge is the fact that as more Americans own and actually carry guns.......it did not increase the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate.

That means that normal people owning guns is not the cause of gun crime, or gun murder........so gun control laws directed at them, will not do anything to lower the crime rate or the gun crime rate....

Normal people owning guns is not a crime problem.......and you can keep pretending you don't understand that, but that just shows you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are a lying twit.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
Click to expand...



Wrong....over the next ten years your gun crime went up... then leveled off to the same rate it was at before....and as the British police state, gun smuggling is increasing......so your gun control laws have no bearing on criminals and their decisions to use guns in crime........and as my latest article shows, they are converting illegal guns to fully automatic weapons now.........


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
Click to expand...


That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.


Nice dodge, you should play dodge ball...

I pointed out that 18.6 million Americans have permits to own and carry guns.......there are more than that many because of Constitutional Carry.......you thought it was the total number of gun owners and you were wrong.  That number is just the number of people who can carry guns in public....and our gun crime rate went down 75%....showing that your theory on guns is wrong....our gun murder rate went down 49%...showing your theory on guns is wrong....

And we have over 600 million guns in private hands.......and our gun crime rate still went down 75%, and our gun murder rate went down 49% and our violent crime rate went down 72%.....

We know how many guns are sold through sales records........and since we have anti-gun extremists like you in this country, Americans are not likely to tell strangers on phone surveys if they own a gun or not......

You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to guns or gun issues.....you think your island is safe from guns in the hands of criminals, but you don't understand that criminals drive the crime rate and your criminals are growing bolder, more violent and care less and less about your culture, your values and your laws.........they are converting already illegal guns into fully automatic weapons.......and your police can't stop them.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
Click to expand...



You didn't read the article.....I gave you the statistic they found, and then lied about..............they showed that Britain is more violent than the U.S......but then dodged to say that the social media statement wasn't accurate because 
the number stated was off....Britain is only just over twice as violent as the U.S........

You twit.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
Click to expand...


See my response above, how do you know?

Gun sales are tracked at the gun store......by law.   They also track production of guns and sales to gun stores.....so yes....over 600 million guns in private hands...

Gun crime went down 75%

gun murder down 49%

violent crime down 72%.....


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Vagabond63 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Already did. Guess you missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? care to provide a link to that post of yours?
Click to expand...


Already did. Guess you missed it.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
Click to expand...


*Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.*


*And here...since you didn't want to be honest.....

The meme...*

*The meme said: "There are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K., making it the most violent place in Europe.*

*What Politifact found about actual crime numbers.... the U.S. compared to Britain...*

*For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." **This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*

*For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. **We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*


*Then politifact said the meme was wrong....but with their own research demonstrated that Britain is more violent than the U.S.....you twit.*

*This calculation suggests that there is a higher rate of crime in England and Wales, but the discrepancy is not anywhere near as wide as the one cited in the meme.*

*They didn't claim the U.S. was less violent than Britain.......they ruled the original meme was off........*

*The meme said "there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K.," compared to "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States. 
Our preliminary attempt to make an apples-to-apples comparison shows a much smaller difference in violent crime rates between the two countries, *
-------
*We rate the claim False.*









						PolitiFact - Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does
					

The debate over gun policy has inspired a blizzard of messages on social media, from both supporters and opponents of gu




					www.politifact.com
				




*So.......Britain is more violent than the United States......with your gun control*


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

2aguy said:


> You didn't read the article.....I gave you the statistic they found, and then lied about..............they showed that Britain is more violent than the U.S......but then dodged to say that the social media statement wasn't accurate because
> the number stated was off....Britain is only just over twice as violent as the U.S........
> 
> You twit.



Of course he didn't read the article.
In his lame brain the Gun is the villain, never the criminals.....because everyone is a criminal to him.

Imagine if in your head you perceived everyone as criminal.  You would have to decide who the "worst" criminals are, and release the rest, even though they are criminals (liberal judges do that constantly)

In their minds, every gun will be owned by criminals (since everyone is a criminal)
Therefore, in their minds, the only way is to take EVERYONE's guns away.

Stupid, pea brained thinking but there it is.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Already did. Guess you missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? care to provide a link to that post of yours?
Click to expand...


*One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.*


*Armed citizens help to lower the crime rate..........*




_Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_

*Our results indicated that the direction of effect of the shall-issue law on total SHR homicide rates was similar to that obtained by Lott and Mustard, although the magnitude of the effect was somewhat smaller and was statistically significant at the 7 percent level. In our analysis, which included only counties with a 1977 population of 100,000 or more, laws allowing for concealed weapons were associated with a 6.52 percent reduction in total homicides (Table 2). By comparison, Lott and Mustard found the concealed weapon dummy variable to be associated with a 7.65 percent reduction in total homicides across all counties and a 9 percent reduction in homicides when only large counties (populations of 100,000 or more) were included.43
====*

*http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Plassmann_Whitley.pdf

COMMENTS

Confirming ìMore Guns, Less Crimeî Florenz Plassmann* & John Whitley**

CONCLUSION Analyzing county-level data for the entire United States from 1977 to 2000, we find annual reductions in murder rates between 1.5% and 2.3% for each additional year that a right-to-carry law is in effect.

For the first five years that such a law is in effect, the total benefit from reduced crimes usually ranges between about $2 and $3 billion per year.

The results are very similar to earlier estimates using county-level data from 1977 to 1996. We appreciate the continuing effort that Ayres and Donohue have made in discussing the impact of right-to-carry laws on crime rates. Yet we believe that both the new evidence provided by them as well as our new results show consistently that right-to-carry laws reduce crime and save lives. Unfortunately, a few simple mistakes lead Ayres and Donohue to incorrectly claim that crime rates significantly increase after right-to-carry laws are initially adopted and to misinterpret the significance of their own estimates that examined the year-to-year impact of the law.

====

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content...An-Exercise-in-Replication.proof_.revised.pdf

~ The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws on Crime: An Exercise in Replication1

Carlisle E. Moody College of William and Mary - Department of Economics, Virginia 23187, U.S.A. E-mail: cemood@wm.edu Thomas B. Marvell Justec Research, Virginia 23185, U.S.A. Paul R. Zimmerman U.S. Federal Trade Commission - Bureau of Economics, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. Fasil Alemante College of William and Mary, Virginia 23187, U.S.A.


Abstract: In an article published in 2011, Aneja, Donohue and Zhang found that shall-issue or right-to-carry (RTC) concealed weapons laws have no effect on any crime except for a positive effect on assault.

This paper reports a replication of their basic findings and some corresponding robustness checks, which reveal a serious omitted variable problem.

Once corrected for omitted variables, the most robust result, confirmed using both county and state data, is that RTC laws significantly reduce murder.
====
An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates
Mark Gius

Abstract

The purpose of the present study is to determine the effects of state-level assault weapons bans and concealed weapons laws on state-level murder rates.

Using data for the period 1980 to 2009 and controlling for state and year fixed effects, the results of the present study suggest that states with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states.

It was also found that assault weapons bans did not significantly affect murder rates at the state level. These results suggest that restrictive concealed weapons laws may cause an increase in gun-related murders at the state level. The results of this study are consistent with some prior research in this area, most notably Lott and Mustard (1997).

===


“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here..


Summary and Conclusion

Many articles have been published finding that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one article, by Ayres and Donohue who employ a model that combines a dummy variable with a post-law trend, claims to find that shall-issue laws increase crime.

However, the only way that they can produce the result that shall-issue laws increase crime is to confine the span of analysis to five years

. We show, using their own estimates, that if they had extended their analysis by one more year, they would have concluded that these laws reduce crime.

Since most states with shallissue laws have had these laws on the books for more than five years, and the law will presumably remain on the books for some time, the only relevant analysis extends beyond five years. We extend their analysis by adding three more years of data, control for the effects of crack cocaine, control for dynamic effects, and correct the standard errors for clustering.

We find that there is an initial increase in crime due to passage of the shall-issue law that is dwarfed over time by the decrease in crime associated with the post-law trend.

These results are very similar to those of Ayres and Donohue, properly interpreted.

The modified Ayres and Donohue model finds that shall-issue laws significantly reduce murder and burglary across all the adopting states. These laws appear to significantly increase assault, and have no net effect on rape, robbery, larceny, or auto theft. However, in the long run only the trend coefficients matter. We estimate a net benefit of $450 million per year as a result of the passage of these laws. We also estimate that, up through 2000, there was a cumulative overall net benefit of these laws of $28 billion since their passage. We think that there is credible statistical evidence that these laws lower the costs of crime. But at the very least, the present study should neutralize any “more guns, more crime” thinking based on Ayres and Donohue’s work in the Stanford Law Review


Taking apart ayre and donahue one....


“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here..


Abstract
“Shall-issue” laws require authorities to issue concealed-weapons permits to anyone who applies, unless the applicant has a criminal record or a history of mental illness. A large number of studies indicate that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one study, an influential paper in the Stanford Law Review (2003) by Ian Ayres and John J. Donohue iii, implies that these laws lead to an increase in crime. We apply an improved version of the Ayres and Donohue method to a more extensive data set. Our analysis, as well as Ayres and Donohue’s when projected beyond a five-year span, indicates that shall-issue laws decrease crime and the costs of crime. Purists in statistical analysis object with some cause to some of methods employed both by Ayres and Donohue and by us. But our paper upgrades Ayres and Donohue, so, until the next study comes along, our paper should neutralize Ayres and Donohue’s “more guns, more crime” conclusion.*

_*Summary and Conclusion Many articles have been published finding that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one article, by Ayres and Donohue who employ a model that combines a dummy variable with a post-law trend, claims to find that shall-issue laws increase crime. *_

*However, the only way that they can produce the result that shall-issue laws increase crime is to confine the span of analysis to five years. We show, using their own estimates, that if they had extended their analysis by one more year, they would have concluded that these laws reduce crime. Since most states with shallissue laws have had these laws on the books for more than five years, and the law will presumably remain on the books for some time, the only relevant analysis extends beyond five years. 


We extend their analysis by adding three more years of data, control for the effects of crack cocaine, control for dynamic effects, and correct the standard errors for clustering. 


We find that there is an initial increase in crime due to passage of the shall-issue law that is dwarfed over time by the decrease in crime associated with the post-law trend. These results are very similar to those of Ayres and Donohue, properly interpreted. 


The modified Ayres and Donohue model finds that shall-issue laws significantly reduce murder and burglary across all the adopting states. 

These laws appear to significantly increase assault, and have no net effect on rape, robbery, larceny, or auto theft. However, in the long run only the trend coefficients matter. We estimate a net benefit of $450 million per year as a result of the passage of these laws. 

We also estimate that, up through 2000, there was a cumulative overall net benefit of these laws of $28 billion since their passage. We think that there is credible statistical evidence that these laws lower the costs of crime. 


But at the very least, the present study should neutralize any “more guns, more crime” thinking based on Ayres and Donohue’s work in the Stanford Law Review. We acknowledge that, especially in light of the methodological issues of the literature in general, the magnitudes derived from our analysis of crime statistics and the supposed costs of crime might be dwarfed by other considerations in judging the policy issue. Some might contend that allowing individuals to carry a concealed weapon is a moral or cultural bad. Others might contend that greater liberty is a moral or cultural good. 

All we are confident in saying is that the evidence, such as it is, seems to support the hypothesis that the shall-issue law is generally beneficial with respect to its overall long run effect on crime.*


----------



## 2aguy

Another shooting in gun free Britain....

*A young man was shot dead outside a funeral wake by a gunman wearing a surgical mask who fired at least eight times before being driven away, witnesses told the Standard.*
*
Neighbours said more than 100 well-wishers had gathered for the traditional Caribbean "nine nights" celebration in Harlesden, to honour another young man who died last week. They were seen to flee as gunshots rang out.
*
*Police called to Windrush Road at just after 3am battled to save the victim's life but he was pronounced dead by paramedics at the scene. His death marks the capital’s seventh violent killing in just 12 days.*









						Young man shot dead outside wake by 'gunman wearing surgical mask'
					

Neighbours said more than 100 well-wishers had gathered for the traditional Caribbean "nine nights" celebration in Harlseden




					www.standard.co.uk
				




Again....which British gun control law kept this gunman from walking into a school, a mall, a church (if Britain still has them) or more likely a Mosque or theater?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.*
> 
> 
> *And here...since you didn't want to be honest.....
> 
> The meme...*
> 
> *The meme said: "There are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K., making it the most violent place in Europe.*
> 
> *What Politifact found about actual crime numbers.... the U.S. compared to Britain...*
> 
> *For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." **This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*
> 
> *For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. **We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*
> 
> 
> *Then politifact said the meme was wrong....but with their own research demonstrated that Britain is more violent than the U.S.....you twit.*
> 
> *This calculation suggests that there is a higher rate of crime in England and Wales, but the discrepancy is not anywhere near as wide as the one cited in the meme.*
> 
> *They didn't claim the U.S. was less violent than Britain.......they ruled the original meme was off........*
> 
> *The meme said "there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K.," compared to "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States.
> Our preliminary attempt to make an apples-to-apples comparison shows a much smaller difference in violent crime rates between the two countries, *
> -------
> *We rate the claim False.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does
> 
> 
> The debate over gun policy has inspired a blizzard of messages on social media, from both supporters and opponents of gu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So.......Britain is more violent than the United States......with your gun control*
Click to expand...

Erm..you should really read the whole analysis, not just the cherry pick bits that "support" your argument.

"Another problem is that aggravated assaults, rapes and robberies are victim-reported crimes, so whether the crime gets reported varies widely, depending on such factors as the victim’s trust in the police. *This difference shows up in comparisons of FBI crime data, which consists of crimes reported to police, and the far higher rates of crime victimization found in a survey of Americans by the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics. The survey counts all crimes that respondents say they have experienced, not just those they reported to police.*

The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by an arm of the United Nations most recently in 2005, shows the difference between reported crime and all crimes committed by conducting polls that ask people if they've been victims of specific crimes. *Polling data showed that England and Wales had 2,600 cases of robbery per 100,000 population and 8,100 cases of "assaults and threats" per 100,000.* While those figures are even higher than the meme suggested,* the U.S levels are also much higher -- 1,100 cases of robbery and 8,300 cases of assaults and threats per 100,000. And the rate of sexual assault is actually about 50 percent higher in the United States than it is in England and Wales.* So this data set doesn’t support the thrust of the meme, either."

Next?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Armed citizens help to lower the crime rate...


More regurgitated Lott ESTIMATES and GUESSORK, no actual facts.


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Already did. Guess you missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? care to provide a link to that post of yours?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Already did. Guess you missed it.
Click to expand...

Oh, OK, I'll just assume you are lying then and ignore anything you post going forward.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Another shooting in gun free Britain....
> 
> *A young man was shot dead outside a funeral wake by a gunman wearing a surgical mask who fired at least eight times before being driven away, witnesses told the Standard.*
> 
> *Neighbours said more than 100 well-wishers had gathered for the traditional Caribbean "nine nights" celebration in Harlesden, to honour another young man who died last week. They were seen to flee as gunshots rang out.*
> 
> *Police called to Windrush Road at just after 3am battled to save the victim's life but he was pronounced dead by paramedics at the scene. His death marks the capital’s seventh violent killing in just 12 days.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Young man shot dead outside wake by 'gunman wearing surgical mask'
> 
> 
> Neighbours said more than 100 well-wishers had gathered for the traditional Caribbean "nine nights" celebration in Harlseden
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again....which British gun control law kept this gunman from walking into a school, a mall, a church (if Britain still has them) or more likely a Mosque or theater?


So a criminal hit on another criminal is a now a cause for concern for you?  Every time I've mentioned your gun murder rates, you brush off the figures with a "meh, they were criminals". Your hypocrisy is showing.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to explain that.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have several times now, you just prefer to ignore any opinions contrary to your fanatical beliefs, I suppose that makes you a prime candidate for groups such as ISIS.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One more time, read your own source for reasons that crime decined in the USA; gun ownership is not mentioned.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you want to test a theory scientifically, you rely on empirical factual data, not guesswork and projections based on limited, arguably biased, samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More Guns = More Gun Crime
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well when we banned handguns in 1997 our shootings and homicides fell by 50%
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a fully automatic military rifle in your home...and ammunition.....which gun control laws keep you from walking out of your house and shooting up a school?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ever tried chambering a 7-10mm round into a 5.56mm rifle?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 18.6 million people are not just gun owners......they are people who have legal permits to carry a gun for self defense...and are thus documented ........they are not permits for guns, they are permits for individuals............and that number is low, since many of our states are "Constitutional Carry" states, which means you can carry a gun without any license or permit, either open carry of the gun, in some states, or concealed carry or both. That means millions more carry guns that are not on official records.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That means you have no idea how many people have how many guns in their posession, that's why your criminals get hold of guns so easily, that's why your suicide figures are so high. If nothing else, registering each firearm to an individual and any onward sales of said firearm would provide you with actual factual data as opposed to wild assertions based on guesswork alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our actual gun ownership number is close to if not over 600 million guns....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See my response above, how do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet your society isn't safer, and is, in fact, more violent....
> 
> From Politifact...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Oh dear, another epic fail. Politifact rated your assertion mostly FALSE, nice try, thanks for playing.*
> 
> 
> *And here...since you didn't want to be honest.....
> 
> The meme...*
> 
> *The meme said: "There are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K., making it the most violent place in Europe.*
> 
> *What Politifact found about actual crime numbers.... the U.S. compared to Britain...*
> 
> *For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." **This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*
> 
> *For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. **We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.*
> 
> 
> *Then politifact said the meme was wrong....but with their own research demonstrated that Britain is more violent than the U.S.....you twit.*
> 
> *This calculation suggests that there is a higher rate of crime in England and Wales, but the discrepancy is not anywhere near as wide as the one cited in the meme.*
> 
> *They didn't claim the U.S. was less violent than Britain.......they ruled the original meme was off........*
> 
> *The meme said "there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K.," compared to "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States.
> Our preliminary attempt to make an apples-to-apples comparison shows a much smaller difference in violent crime rates between the two countries, *
> -------
> *We rate the claim False.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PolitiFact - Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does
> 
> 
> The debate over gun policy has inspired a blizzard of messages on social media, from both supporters and opponents of gu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politifact.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So.......Britain is more violent than the United States......with your gun control*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Erm..you should really read the whole analysis, not just the cherry pick bits that "support" your argument.
> 
> "Another problem is that aggravated assaults, rapes and robberies are victim-reported crimes, so whether the crime gets reported varies widely, depending on such factors as the victim’s trust in the police. *This difference shows up in comparisons of FBI crime data, which consists of crimes reported to police, and the far higher rates of crime victimization found in a survey of Americans by the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics. The survey counts all crimes that respondents say they have experienced, not just those they reported to police.*
> 
> The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by an arm of the United Nations most recently in 2005, shows the difference between reported crime and all crimes committed by conducting polls that ask people if they've been victims of specific crimes. *Polling data showed that England and Wales had 2,600 cases of robbery per 100,000 population and 8,100 cases of "assaults and threats" per 100,000.* While those figures are even higher than the meme suggested,* the U.S levels are also much higher -- 1,100 cases of robbery and 8,300 cases of assaults and threats per 100,000. And the rate of sexual assault is actually about 50 percent higher in the United States than it is in England and Wales.* So this data set doesn’t support the thrust of the meme, either."
> 
> Next?
Click to expand...



And you should pay attention......politifact then stated they did an apples to apples comparison..which is what I posted.  The rest is just to pretend that AMerica is more violent than Britain..

You can duck, dodge and dip all you want....but this is the key point to the politifact story...the one they try to bury...

For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another shooting in gun free Britain....
> 
> *A young man was shot dead outside a funeral wake by a gunman wearing a surgical mask who fired at least eight times before being driven away, witnesses told the Standard.*
> 
> *Neighbours said more than 100 well-wishers had gathered for the traditional Caribbean "nine nights" celebration in Harlesden, to honour another young man who died last week. They were seen to flee as gunshots rang out.*
> 
> *Police called to Windrush Road at just after 3am battled to save the victim's life but he was pronounced dead by paramedics at the scene. His death marks the capital’s seventh violent killing in just 12 days.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Young man shot dead outside wake by 'gunman wearing surgical mask'
> 
> 
> Neighbours said more than 100 well-wishers had gathered for the traditional Caribbean "nine nights" celebration in Harlseden
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again....which British gun control law kept this gunman from walking into a school, a mall, a church (if Britain still has them) or more likely a Mosque or theater?
> 
> 
> 
> So a criminal hit on another criminal is a now a cause for concern for you?  Every time I've mentioned your gun murder rates, you brush off the figures with a "meh, they were criminals". Your hypocrisy is showing.
Click to expand...



No....it isn't hypocriy, it is the truth.....criminals use guns to shoot other criminals in Britain and the United States... that is the vast majority of our gun crime rate..in democrat party controlled cities...

So normal people who stay out of the very small areas where criminals run free in democrat party controlled cities do not experience gun crime or gun murder....just like in Britain....

And again, you pretend not to see the point.....

If the criminals has the gun and bullets, then there is nothing your gun control laws can do to stop him from using that gun for crime...or in particular a mass public shooting....the gun control law didn't stop them.....their decision to shoot or not shoot was the factor, not your gun control laws.

And again, as you and your country will see........ if the democrat party, and it's counterpart in your country, would stop letting violent criminals out of prison over and over again, our gun crime rate would drop 95%...... the policies of catch and release from the democrat party drive our gun crime rate..... normal people owing and carrying guns does not cause the problem....and laws that are directed at them, and not criminals are pointless...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Armed citizens help to lower the crime rate...
> 
> 
> 
> More regurgitated Lott ESTIMATES and GUESSORK, no actual facts.
Click to expand...



Moron, you didn't read the names of the researchers doing  the actual studies....you dumb twit..........they aren't lott, though he has done the most research in this area...you doofus.


----------



## OnePercenter

BasicHumanUnit said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....
> 
> We already hear about them in this country....what we rarely hear about is the 1.2 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders.....or the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down, not up....
> 
> Meanwhile....in Europe.....their immigrants are using more guns for more crime....to protect their drug territories...and their gun control laws are not stopping them.
> 
> Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%
> 
> --gun crime down 75%
> 
> --violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree that if we extend a federal death penalty to anyone that uses a gun in commission of a crime would be a good deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I actually propose something like that.........I only support the death penalty for actual murder, or attempted murder....here is my plan...
> 
> I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.
> 
> This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......
> 
> Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.
> 
> You implement this with two other things...
> 
> 1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.
> 
> 2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......
> 
> That is how you stop gun crime over night.
> 
> Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.
> 
> The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....
> 
> It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...
> 
> By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....
> 
> Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...
> 
> This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....
> 
> Mass shooters
> 
> 
> 1) end gun free zones
> 
> 2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....
> 
> 3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....
> 
> 4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....
> 
> What does each do to stop mass shooters....
> 
> 1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.
> 
> 2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect
> 
> 3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....
> 
> 4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The severe problem with your proposals.......is liberal judges and lawmakers
> They could selectively apply these laws to Conservatives only in the court rooms.
> 
> In hard left liberal court rooms, this is already happening.
> Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Liberal juries are handing down guilty verdicts to people for defending their homes.*
> 
> Why don't you post one of those for a full dissection.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy peasy.....thousands of cases......ever heard of Google?
> 
> This New York Man Got Arrested After Defending His Own Home
> 
> Now then, you were saying?
Click to expand...

Nice try. The man was arrested for possession of a non-registered gun.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

OnePercenter said:


> Nice try. The man was arrested for possession of a non-registered gun.



There ya go again.....

ALWAYS proving MY POINT for me.

You Lefttards would rather see an innocent person die, than let them defend their families against criminals
What a disgustingly criminally minded lot of leftards you are.
I'm wondering how NY has been allowed to so completely infringe CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ?!?!?!?!

It's true....All that is required for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> politifact then stated they did an apples to apples comparison



..and subsequently stated that their "apples to apples" comparison was worthless due to there not being a standard definition of any particulat type of crime.



2aguy said:


> .criminals use guns to shoot other criminals in Britain and the United States... that is the vast majority of our gun crime rate..



So you don't really need an armed population then, just let the criminals kill each other while staying away from "bad" neighbourhoods and the problem will solve itself eventually.



2aguy said:


> Moron, you didn't read the names of the researchers doing the actual studies....you dumb twit..........they aren't lott, though he has done the most research in this area...you doofus.



The problem with most of these "research" papers is that there is a tendency to focus on one issue while ignoring other factors that might have equal or greater impact. A bit like shooting at a wall, seeing where the bullet hits and painting a target around the point of impact, then claiming a bullseye.

Read an interesting article the other day and I'll try and find a link for you. It basically said that the creation and introduction of unarmed Neighbourhood Watch schemes in America reduced violent crime in places the schemes were active by 47%; that's very close you your favourite percentage,  "18.6  million Americans carry guns. Gun murder in U.S. down 49% since 1990s."  Play around with these two details and you could construct an argument that "18.6 million Americans carrying guns reduced gun murder in U.S. down by only 2% since 1990s."

Not saying that's necessarily true, but you see how easy it is to manipulate data to forward an agenda.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> politifact then stated they did an apples to apples comparison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..and subsequently stated that their "apples to apples" comparison was worthless due to there not being a standard definition of any particulat type of crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> .criminals use guns to shoot other criminals in Britain and the United States... that is the vast majority of our gun crime rate..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you don't really need an armed population then, just let the criminals kill each other while staying away from "bad" neighbourhoods and the problem will solve itself eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron, you didn't read the names of the researchers doing the actual studies....you dumb twit..........they aren't lott, though he has done the most research in this area...you doofus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem with most of these "research" papers is that there is a tendency to focus on one issue while ignoring other factors that might have equal or greater impact. A bit like shooting at a wall, seeing where the bullet hits and painting a target around the point of impact, then claiming a bullseye.
> 
> Read an interesting article the other day and I'll try and find a link for you. It basically said that the creation and introduction of unarmed Neighbourhood Watch schemes in America reduced violent crime in places the schemes were active by 47%; that's very close you your favourite percentage,  "18.6  million Americans carry guns. Gun murder in U.S. down 49% since 1990s."  Play around with these two details and you could construct an argument that "18.6 million Americans carrying guns reduced gun murder in U.S. down by only 2% since 1990s."
> 
> Not saying that's necessarily true, but you see how easy it is to manipulate data to forward an agenda.
Click to expand...


*So you don't really need an armed population then, just let the criminals kill each other while staying away from "bad" neighbourhoods and the problem will solve itself eventually.*

Staying away from those neighborhoods and away from criminals as family members, friends and associates keeps you safe from the vast majority of crime in our country, the same as Britain....but, criminals aren't contained in these neighborhoods and life can throw you into dangerous situations........so having the ability to protect yourself is a God given Right.....

*The problem with most of these "research" papers is that there is a tendency to focus on one issue while ignoring other factors that might have equal or greater impact. *

No...they are trained researchers who take those variables int account in the research.....

*Play around with these two details and you could construct an argument that "18.6 million Americans carrying guns reduced gun murder in U.S. down by only 2% since 1990s."*

And again, no.......first the main point of the 18.6 million people in the United States who can actually carry guns for self defense...is the fact that the gun crime rate did not go up.....which shows that what you feel about guns is not based in reality.   According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....

Nothing you feel about guns is based in truth, facts or reality.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?




Yeah...the key phrase their is "allowed."   Your rulers will likely never let you own guns again...once you lose them, they are generally gone forever...no matter how violent your society gets....


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah...the key phrase their is "allowed."   Your rulers will likely never let you own guns again...once you lose them, they are generally gone forever...no matter how violent your society gets....
Click to expand...

So when will our murder rates reach American levels ?


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah...the key phrase their is "allowed."   Your rulers will likely never let you own guns again...once you lose them, they are generally gone forever...no matter how violent your society gets....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when will our murder rates reach American levels ?
Click to expand...



When your criminals start killing each other more.   Your gun control laws won't stop them.   You are lucky in that your culture has slowed the pace of your violent crime.  That isn't going to keep you safe....the immigrants in your country don't care about your culture, your values, your laws or your police.....

With knife crime in Britain at the highest rate ever recorded...you are right about at the point the United States was at entering the 1960s......knives were the primary weapon of our youth gangs in the 50s....and then they switched over to guns when they became focused on drugs.....those are your youth gangs......your immigrant drug gangs are moving up to guns at a faster pace...

*The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*

*Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*

*This was 51 per cent higher than when data of this kind was first collected in 2011, and is the highest number on record, the report said.*









						Knife crime soars to highest level on record in England and Wales
					

The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.




					www.standard.co.uk
				




==============

*Organised criminal gangs from Liverpool have risen to the summit of the UK underworld and “dominate” the firearms and drugs-trade outside London, the latest intelligence from senior officers at the National Crime Agency (NCA) reveals.*
*---
Analysis of encrypted messages from a communications system used by criminals has shown that the city has become the preeminent location for top-tier gangs sourcing high-volume importations of drugs and automatic weapons.
------

Analysis by the NFTC found that Merseyside and the broader north-west corridor was home to a network of gun factories converting low-calibre weapons such as the Czech-made Škorpion and Slovakian Grand Power into deadly automatic firearms.

Perfect said that converting weapons was seen by some in the region as a viable business. 

A low-calibre Glock handgun bought for £135 in eastern Europe could be converted in just 90 seconds to a 9mm weapon that could be sold for up to £5,000.
-----
nalysis of the intelligence from EncroChat has revealed other surprises to firearms officers. Perfect said: *

*“If you’d asked me before Venetic what was the firearm of choice for an organised crime group, I’d have absolutely said the Glock handgun. Venetic showed that the Škorpion SMG and the Grand Power are now becoming that weapon of choice.”*

Liverpool gangs 'dominate' gun and drugs trade outside London

But....aren't fully automatic guns illegal in Britain?


----------



## Vagabond63

Tommy Tainant said:


> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?


Tommy, we *are* allowed guns in the UK; there are almost 2 million shotguns, rifles and pistols legally owned for sport and target shooting. The difference between the UK and the USA, is that our nut-cases and psychos have a very difficult, if not impossible time, getting hold of them legally. 

All American psychos have to do is go to a gun fair and pay for whatever they want; then wander into churches, shopping malls and schools and start shooting. There were 49 mass shootings in America so far this month according to Wikipedia, List of mass shootings in the United States in 2020 - Wikipedia

So where were all these "good guys with guns" that are supposed to prevent these shootings?

Oh, these were mass shootings, wounder how many non "mass" shootings there have been in America during July? You know, the ones that are so commonplace they no longer make the papers.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Vagabond63 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy, we *are* allowed guns in the UK; there are almost 2 million shotguns, rifles and pistols legally owned for sport and target shooting. The difference between the UK and the USA, is that our nut-cases and psychos have a very difficult, if not impossible time, getting hold of them legally.
> 
> All American psychos have to do is go to a gun fair and pay for whatever they want; then wander into churches, shopping malls and schools and start shooting. There were 49 mass shootings in America so far this month according to Wikipedia, List of mass shootings in the United States in 2020 - Wikipedia
> 
> So where were all these "good guys with guns" that are supposed to prevent these shootings?
> 
> Oh, these were mass shootings, wounder how many non "mass" shootings there have been in America during July? You know, the ones that are so commonplace they no longer make the papers.
Click to expand...

Those arent real guns though. We need machine guns to be really safe from assailants and the deep state.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....



Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:

1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
 if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.



2aguy said:


> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*



*sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.


----------



## Mac-7

2aguy said:


> What you don't understand.....you really don't understand a lot.....is that Europe is used by our anti-gun extremists to justify our anti-gun laws.......the fact that gun control does not work in Europe shows it won't work here.....


What he said

OldLady:  have you never hear domestic gun grabbers to to the euro's as their inspiration?

I have many many times


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:
> 
> 1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
> 2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
> 3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
> 4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
> if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
> 5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.
Click to expand...



And each one of your points would limit the Right out of existence as they have already done in Britain.

The micro stamp tech doesn't exist and can't work......licensing and training requirements are no different than the Literacy tests we used to have here for the Right to vote when the democrat party wanted to keep Black Americans from voting....

We already have point of sale tracking...at the gun stores.....anything else is registration which your country showed would simply be used to confiscate guns when our gun grabbers get the power to do it.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:
> 
> 1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
> 2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
> 3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
> 4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
> if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
> 5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.
Click to expand...


*A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.*

Yes....this is pointless busy work that does nothing.....already tried in a few places and didn't help in any way...

If the gun is stolen then what is the point.....the average street life of a gun before the police find it is about 12 years...do you know how many different criminals will have used that gun before it is caught by the police?

Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up

The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.

The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.

So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.

There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.

Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.


As to solving crimes....it doesn't...
Ten Myths Of The Long Gun Registry | Canadian Shooting Sports Association


Myth #4: Police investigations are aided by the registry.
Doubtful. Information contained in the registry is incomplete and unreliable. Due to the inaccuracy of the information, it cannot be used as evidence in court and the government has yet to prove that it has been a contributing factor in any investigation. Another factor is the dismal compliance rate (estimated at only 50%) for licensing and registration which further renders the registry useless. Some senior police officers have stated as such: “The law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered ... the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.” Former Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino, January 2003.


-----

https://www.quora.com/In-countries-...olved-at-least-in-part-by-use-of-the-registry



Tracking physical objects that are easily transferred with a database is non-trivial problem. Guns that are stolen, loaned, or lost disappear from the registry. The data is has to be manually entered and input mistakes will both leak guns and generate false positive results.

Registries don’t solve straw-purchases. If someone goes through all of the steps to register a gun and simply gives it to a criminal that gun becomes unregistered. Assuming the gun is ever recovered you could theoretically try and prosecute the person who transferred the gun to the criminal, but you aren’t solving the crime you were trying to. Remember that people will prostitute themselves or even their children for drugs, so how much deterrence is there in a maybe-get-a-few-years for straw purchasing?

Registries are expensive. Canada’s registry was pitched as costing the taxpayer $2 million and the rest of the costs were to be payed for with registration fees. It was subject to massive cost overruns that were not being met by registrations fees. When the program was audited in 2002 the program was expected to cost over $1 billion and that the fee revenue was only expected to be $140 million.

No gun recovered. If no gun was recovered at the scene of the crime then your registry isn’t even _theoretically_ helping, let alone providing a practical tool. You need a world where criminals meticulously register their guns and leave them at the crime scene for a registry to start to become useful.

Say I have a registered gun, and a known associate of mine was shot and killed. Ballistics is able to determine that my known associate was killed with the same make and model as the gun I registered. A registry doesn’t prove that my gun was used, or that I was the one doing the shooting. I was a suspect as soon as we said “known associate” and the police will then being looking for motive and checking for my alibi.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:
> 
> 1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
> 2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
> 3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
> 4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
> if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
> 5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.
Click to expand...



And this too, is dumb and pointless....600 million guns in the U.S.........you do realize that as a gun is repeatedly fired it changes the pattern...right?

A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.

Baltimore....the democrat party controlled city with gun crime issues....tried what you wanted...it failed...miserably.

*Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.*

*Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.

"Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."

The database "was a waste," said Frank Sloane, owner of Pasadena Gun & Pawn in Anne Arundel County. "There's things that they could have done that would have made sense. This didn't make any sense."
------*

In a old fallout shelter beneath Maryland State Police headquarters in Pikesville, the state has amassed more than 300,000 bullet casings, one from each new handgun sold here since the law took effect. They fill three cavernous rooms secured by a common combination lock.
Each casing was meticulously stamped with a bar code, sealed in its own envelope and filed in boxes stacked from floor to ceiling. Forensic scientists photographed the casings in hopes the system would someday identify the owner of a gun fired at a crime scene. The system cost an estimated $5 million to set up and operate over the years.
But the computerized system designed to sort and match the images never worked as envisioned. In 2007, the state stopped bothering to take the photographs, though hundreds of thousands more casings kept piling up in the fallout shelter.
-----

Worse, the system Maryland bought created images so imprecise that when an investigator submitted a crime scene casing, the database software would sometimes spit out hundreds of matches. The state sued the manufacturer in 2009 for $1.9 million, settling three years later for $390,000.









						Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
					

Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns, was a failure. Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to...




					www.baltimoresun.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:
> 
> 1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
> 2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
> 3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
> 4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
> if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
> 5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.
Click to expand...


*1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.*


More...you don't understand the issues....

*That's because, on average, most guns used in crimes were bought nearly 15 years prior, according to the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. By the time they end up on the street, they've often been stolen and resold illegally.
-----

In the fall of 2014, state police issued a report that showed the program had solved no crimes and was costing more than ever. A sweeping gun-control law passed in 2013 — and the surge in gun sales that resulted — created a backlog and state police had to hire eight people just to organize the nearly 60,000 bullet casings sent in that year. In the report, police again suggested the program had merit.









						Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
					

Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns, was a failure. Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to...




					www.baltimoresun.com
				



*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:
> 
> 1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
> 2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
> 3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
> 4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
> if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
> 5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.
Click to expand...



Yes......and criminals will of course follow all of your rules...right?

5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.

*We have over 18.6 million gun owners who can actually carry guns for self defense.....our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, our violent crime rate went down 72%.....so your limiting where people can carry guns is pointless......since they aren't the ones shooting other people in the first place and carry their guns responsibly........and criminals can't buy, own or carry guns in the first place.....*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy, we *are* allowed guns in the UK; there are almost 2 million shotguns, rifles and pistols legally owned for sport and target shooting. The difference between the UK and the USA, is that our nut-cases and psychos have a very difficult, if not impossible time, getting hold of them legally.
> 
> All American psychos have to do is go to a gun fair and pay for whatever they want; then wander into churches, shopping malls and schools and start shooting. There were 49 mass shootings in America so far this month according to Wikipedia, List of mass shootings in the United States in 2020 - Wikipedia
> 
> So where were all these "good guys with guns" that are supposed to prevent these shootings?
> 
> Oh, these were mass shootings, wounder how many non "mass" shootings there have been in America during July? You know, the ones that are so commonplace they no longer make the papers.
Click to expand...



Again....I have shown you criminal after criminal in britain with illegal guns and you can't show us which British gun control law kept them from going into churches, schools or malls?   Even in Europe, they prefer fully automatic military rifles......

You have no point...

We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019 in a country of over 320 million people and they took place in gun free zones......

10

In a country of over 320 million people.... 73 people were killed...total...

A truck in Nice, France killed 86 and injured 458.

Lawn mowers routinely kill more people each year than mass public shooters do....

Americans use their legal guns to stop, on average, 1.2 million crimes a year, including rapes, robberies and murders...

73 v 1,200,000

Can you tell which number is bigger?


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy, we *are* allowed guns in the UK; there are almost 2 million shotguns, rifles and pistols legally owned for sport and target shooting. The difference between the UK and the USA, is that our nut-cases and psychos have a very difficult, if not impossible time, getting hold of them legally.
> 
> All American psychos have to do is go to a gun fair and pay for whatever they want; then wander into churches, shopping malls and schools and start shooting. There were 49 mass shootings in America so far this month according to Wikipedia, List of mass shootings in the United States in 2020 - Wikipedia
> 
> So where were all these "good guys with guns" that are supposed to prevent these shootings?
> 
> Oh, these were mass shootings, wounder how many non "mass" shootings there have been in America during July? You know, the ones that are so commonplace they no longer make the papers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those arent real guns though. We need machine guns to be really safe from assailants and the deep state.
Click to expand...



You are about to get more of them.....

Liverpool gangs 'dominate' gun and drugs trade outside London


*Organised criminal gangs from Liverpool have risen to the summit of the UK underworld and “dominate” the firearms and drugs-trade outside London, the latest intelligence from senior officers at the National Crime Agency (NCA) reveals.*
*---
Analysis of encrypted messages from a communications system used by criminals has shown that the city has become the preeminent location for top-tier gangs sourcing high-volume importations of drugs and automatic weapons.
------

Analysis by the NFTC found that Merseyside and the broader north-west corridor was home to a network of gun factories converting low-calibre weapons such as the Czech-made Škorpion and Slovakian Grand Power into deadly automatic firearms.

Perfect said that converting weapons was seen by some in the region as a viable business. 

A low-calibre Glock handgun bought for £135 in eastern Europe could be converted in just 90 seconds to a 9mm weapon that could be sold for up to £5,000.
-----
nalysis of the intelligence from EncroChat has revealed other surprises to firearms officers. Perfect said: 
*
*“If you’d asked me before Venetic what was the firearm of choice for an organised crime group, I’d have absolutely said the Glock handgun. *
*Venetic showed that the Škorpion SMG and the Grand Power are now becoming that weapon of choice.”*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy, we *are* allowed guns in the UK; there are almost 2 million shotguns, rifles and pistols legally owned for sport and target shooting. The difference between the UK and the USA, is that our nut-cases and psychos have a very difficult, if not impossible time, getting hold of them legally.
> 
> All American psychos have to do is go to a gun fair and pay for whatever they want; then wander into churches, shopping malls and schools and start shooting. There were 49 mass shootings in America so far this month according to Wikipedia, List of mass shootings in the United States in 2020 - Wikipedia
> 
> So where were all these "good guys with guns" that are supposed to prevent these shootings?
> 
> Oh, these were mass shootings, wounder how many non "mass" shootings there have been in America during July? You know, the ones that are so commonplace they no longer make the papers.
Click to expand...



There were not 49 mass public shootings you dumb twit.......there were a total of 10 in 2019.....   

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

*US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


Rental Truck in Nice, France, 86 murdered in 5 minutes...*

Total number murdered in mass public shootings by year...

*Lawn mower deaths every year.... more than 75

(*https://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2007/0419-lawn-mowers.php)
2019....73
2018.....93
2017........117
*2016......71*
2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7
1999...42
1998...14
1997...9
1996...6
1995...6
1994....5
1993...23
1992...9
1991...35
1990...10
1989...15
1988...7
1987...6
1986...15
1985...(none listed)
1984...28
1983 (none listed)
1982...8

http://w


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shootings since thursday. When will we be allowed guns like our nutty friends in America ?
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy, we *are* allowed guns in the UK; there are almost 2 million shotguns, rifles and pistols legally owned for sport and target shooting. The difference between the UK and the USA, is that our nut-cases and psychos have a very difficult, if not impossible time, getting hold of them legally.
> 
> All American psychos have to do is go to a gun fair and pay for whatever they want; then wander into churches, shopping malls and schools and start shooting. There were 49 mass shootings in America so far this month according to Wikipedia, List of mass shootings in the United States in 2020 - Wikipedia
> 
> So where were all these "good guys with guns" that are supposed to prevent these shootings?
> 
> Oh, these were mass shootings, wounder how many non "mass" shootings there have been in America during July? You know, the ones that are so commonplace they no longer make the papers.
Click to expand...


Where were the good guys?  Banned from carrying their guns in those locations.....because of twits like you....

Mass public shooters target gun free zones...but you will see how that works as your Country goes forward.......

and when an armed citizen happens to have their gun?  In the middle of a mass public shooting?

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

*Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.*
*
Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.*

BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says

Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday *before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------

The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.*


----------



## OnePercenter

BasicHumanUnit said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try. The man was arrested for possession of a non-registered gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There ya go again.....
> 
> ALWAYS proving MY POINT for me.
> 
> You Lefttards would rather see an innocent person die, than let them defend their families against criminals
> What a disgustingly criminally minded lot of leftards you are.
> I'm wondering how NY has been allowed to so completely infringe CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ?!?!?!?!
> 
> It's true....All that is required for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing
Click to expand...

I have proven that you don't have a point, just bloviating.

Remember, guns don't kill people, bad people with guns kill people so we should kill the bad people.


----------



## OnePercenter

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:
> 
> 1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
> 2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
> 3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
> 4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
> if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
> 5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.*
> 
> 
> More...you don't understand the issues....
> 
> *That's because, on average, most guns used in crimes were bought nearly 15 years prior, according to the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. By the time they end up on the street, they've often been stolen and resold illegally.
> -----
> 
> In the fall of 2014, state police issued a report that showed the program had solved no crimes and was costing more than ever. A sweeping gun-control law passed in 2013 — and the surge in gun sales that resulted — created a backlog and state police had to hire eight people just to organize the nearly 60,000 bullet casings sent in that year. In the report, police again suggested the program had merit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
> 
> 
> Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns, was a failure. Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.baltimoresun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
Click to expand...

So we should have a federal death penalty for using a gun in commission of any crime.


----------



## 2aguy

OnePercenter said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to you, the mere ownership of guns should have increased the crime rate....instead, as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rates went down...showing that there is nothing wrong with normal people owning and carrying guns for self defense.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Point out to me please, where I have ever stated more guns carried by civilians increase crime. You are projecting your own domestic arguments into our discussion. I advocate that:
> 
> 1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.
> 2. Anyone who wants to own a gun, should receive mandatory extensive training on its use and how to store it safely and securely. The individual should pass a basic level of marksmanship test to prove they can use the weapon without endangering themselves or others.
> 3. Anyone who wants to own a gun must apply for and pass psych evaluations and background checks to obtain a licence to own a firearm.
> 4. Each firearm purchase should be recorded at point of sale and the record kept in a central database so
> if they sell or give away the weapon, the transfer of ownership should be recorded.
> 5. Guns can only be used on approved firing ranges or by licenced hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The number of knife crime in England and Wales has risen 6 per cent to the highest on record, official figures show.*
> 
> *Police-recorded offences involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Friday.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Knife "offences" include carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" without having good reason. It also includes carrying screwdrivers or other sharp instruments without good reason.  The number of actual stabbings is much lower as is the actual number of homicides. The rise in "knife crime" is largely due to changes and  improvements in recording practices. In reality an average of 2-300 people are stabbed to death in the UK every year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *1. All firearms should be centrally registered and made traceable (i.e. micro serial numbers/chips that can't be filed away, especially on barrels that can be changed). A test firing of all guns so there is a record of the grove pattern on the bullet and a record kept in case the gun is stolen and used in a crime.*
> 
> 
> More...you don't understand the issues....
> 
> *That's because, on average, most guns used in crimes were bought nearly 15 years prior, according to the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. By the time they end up on the street, they've often been stolen and resold illegally.
> -----
> 
> In the fall of 2014, state police issued a report that showed the program had solved no crimes and was costing more than ever. A sweeping gun-control law passed in 2013 — and the surge in gun sales that resulted — created a backlog and state police had to hire eight people just to organize the nearly 60,000 bullet casings sent in that year. In the report, police again suggested the program had merit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
> 
> 
> Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns, was a failure. Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.baltimoresun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So we should have a federal death penalty for using a gun in commission of any crime.
Click to expand...



Attempted murder or murder, sure.   

I support a life sentence on any criminal who uses a gun for an actual gun crime..... and 30 years if a criminal is caught in possession of a gun, even if they are not using it at that moment for crime.

This will dry up gun crime over night. Criminals will stop using guns for robberies, rapes and murders.....and those who do will be gone forever......

Criminals will also stop walking around with guns in their pants......which is the leading cause of random gang shootings in our cities. if they are stopped by police, with a gun in their pants, they are gone for 30 years...they will stop carrying those guns, and random gang violence will end.

You implement this with two other things...

1) No More Bargaining Away the Gun Charge.........it must be against the law to bargain away a gun charge as part of a plea deal....this stops.

2) When a criminal is arrested for any crime, and booked in...they will be read the announcement that any use of a crime is a life sentence without parole, owning or carrying a gun as a felon is a 30 year sentence without parole....when they are released from custody...the same will be read to them again....when they meet their parole officer it will be read to them again.....the U.S. government will also buy and send out Public announcements on this policy on t.v. radio. and cable......

That is how you stop gun crime over night.

Mass shooters are different..... but with only 93 people killed in mass public shootings in 2018, they are not the major problem in gun crime.

The value in my plan......it actually targets the individuals actually using guns to commit crimes and murder people....

It does not require new background check laws, it does not require gun licensing, licensing gun owners, gun registration, new taxes, fees or regulations on guns...

By making gun crime a life sentence, criminals will stop using guns for crime and will stop carrying guns around for protection.....

Also....a nurse, with a legal gun, driving from Pennsylvania, to New Jersey, will not be considered a gun criminal.....that will end. Criminals with a record of crime, caught with a gun will get 30 years, no deals.....and criminals who use guns for actual crime...robbing the local store, rape, robbery, murder.....life without parole...

This, of course, eliminates the need for more gun control laws...we can already do this.....

Mass shooters


1) end gun free zones

2) get the media to stop covering mass shootings like it is the Oscars.....

3) We are already seeing this...get people who know these nuts to report these nuts....

4) Make sure the police who know these nuts arrest these nuts when they have the chance so they will pop on background checks....

What does each do to stop mass shooters....

1) keeps shooters from targeting people, since they target gun free zones.

2) The media not covering it like they are the criminal oscars deters copycats...just like they stopped covering teen suicides to stop the copycat effect

3) The only way to stop mass shooters, since they commit no other crime, is for family, coworkers and neighbors to report their violent behavior....the Odessa shooter should have felonies for the crimes he was committing but they didn't report his shooting his weapon from his front porch....

4) The Parkland shooter had 33 contacts with police and numerous contacts with police at his school.....due to Obama's "Promise Program" the police never arrested him for the felonies he committed....so he didn't pop on the background check..


----------



## Vagabond63

As expected, I "triggered" your usual barrage of bullshit



2aguy said:


> The micro stamp tech doesn't exist and can't work....



Really? If it works on diamonds... How to Read the GIA Laser Inscription on Your Diamond
Or even by hand...read the inscription for yourself... World's smallest engraving on the edge of a razor blade It says, "nothing is impossible"



2aguy said:


> And each one of your points would limit the Right out of existence


Oh, so ammendments to your constitution have never been repealed in the past? Doesn't your 2nd Ammendment assume regulation is required? "A well regulated..etc"



2aguy said:


> Yes....this is pointless busy work that does nothing...



Technology has advanced considerably, just because one scheme fails, doesn't mean you should just give up. Ever heard of the saying "If at first you don't succeed..."



2aguy said:


> And this too, is dumb and pointless....600 million guns in the U.S.........you do realize that as a gun is repeatedly fired it changes the pattern...right?



CAN change the pattern due considerable to wear and tear, true. Oh, you've started posting this 600 million figure, where does that come from?



2aguy said:


> Americans use their legal guns to stop, on average, 1.2 million crimes a year, including rapes, robberies and murders...



Gun nut fantasies aren't facts.
As you well know, this number you keep quoting is a subjective guess; it could equally be a tenth of that or even ten times that; there are no objective records or statistics available.



2aguy said:


> There were not 49 mass public shootings you dumb twit.......there were a total of 10 in 2019.....
> 
> US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> 2019....10



Yes, these were shootings carried out by "law abiding" citizens  armed with legaly owned guns. Using your own sources' definition, therefore, the UK has had Zero shootings by comparison. Thanks for proving gun control works.



2aguy said:


> and when an armed citizen happens to have their gun? In the middle of a mass public shooting?
> 
> Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]



Your own source disagrees with you. Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters? Actually, No.

And what about cases in which citizens try to use their guns and things go terribly wrong? There are at least two examples of ill-fated attempts that you won’t see mentioned by those arguing for your kid’s teacher to start stashing a loaded Glock in her classroom:

*Shopping mall shooting in Tacoma, Washington*
As a rampage unfolded in 2005, a civilian with a concealed-carry permit named Brendan McKown attempted to confront the assailant with his handgun. The assailant gravely wounded McKown, and shot five other people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. A comatose McKown recovered after weeks in the hospital.

*Courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas*

In 2005, a civilian named Mark Wilson, who was a firearms instructor, fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47.

*Such actions in chaotic situations don’t just put the well-intentioned citizen at risk, of course. According to Robert McMenomy, an assistant special agent in charge in the San Francisco division of the FBI, they increase the danger for innocent bystanders. (Exhibit A: the gun-wielding civilian who came really close to shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded.) They also make it more difficult for law enforcement officers to do their jobs. “In a scenario like that,” McMenomy said recently, “they wouldn’t know who was good or who was bad, and it would divert them from the real threat.”*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> As expected, I "triggered" your usual barrage of bullshit
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The micro stamp tech doesn't exist and can't work....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? If it works on diamonds... How to Read the GIA Laser Inscription on Your Diamond
> Or even by hand...read the inscription for yourself... World's smallest engraving on the edge of a razor blade It says, "nothing is impossible"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And each one of your points would limit the Right out of existence
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, so ammendments to your constitution have never been repealed in the past? Doesn't your 2nd Ammendment assume regulation is required? "A well regulated..etc"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....this is pointless busy work that does nothing...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Technology has advanced considerably, just because one scheme fails, doesn't mean you should just give up. Ever heard of the saying "If at first you don't succeed..."
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this too, is dumb and pointless....600 million guns in the U.S.........you do realize that as a gun is repeatedly fired it changes the pattern...right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CAN change the pattern due considerable to wear and tear, true. Oh, you've started posting this 600 million figure, where does that come from?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans use their legal guns to stop, on average, 1.2 million crimes a year, including rapes, robberies and murders...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gun nut fantasies aren't facts.
> As you well know, this number you keep quoting is a subjective guess; it could equally be a tenth of that or even ten times that; there are no objective records or statistics available.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 49 mass public shootings you dumb twit.......there were a total of 10 in 2019.....
> 
> US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> 2019....10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, these were shootings carried out by "law abiding" citizens  armed with legaly owned guns. Using your own sources' definition, therefore, the UK has had Zero shootings by comparison. Thanks for proving gun control works.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> and when an armed citizen happens to have their gun? In the middle of a mass public shooting?
> 
> Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your own source disagrees with you. Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters? Actually, No.
> 
> And what about cases in which citizens try to use their guns and things go terribly wrong? There are at least two examples of ill-fated attempts that you won’t see mentioned by those arguing for your kid’s teacher to start stashing a loaded Glock in her classroom:
> 
> *Shopping mall shooting in Tacoma, Washington*
> As a rampage unfolded in 2005, a civilian with a concealed-carry permit named Brendan McKown attempted to confront the assailant with his handgun. The assailant gravely wounded McKown, and shot five other people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. A comatose McKown recovered after weeks in the hospital.
> 
> *Courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas*
> 
> In 2005, a civilian named Mark Wilson, who was a firearms instructor, fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47.
> 
> *Such actions in chaotic situations don’t just put the well-intentioned citizen at risk, of course. According to Robert McMenomy, an assistant special agent in charge in the San Francisco division of the FBI, they increase the danger for innocent bystanders. (Exhibit A: the gun-wielding civilian who came really close to shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded.) They also make it more difficult for law enforcement officers to do their jobs. “In a scenario like that,” McMenomy said recently, “they wouldn’t know who was good or who was bad, and it would divert them from the real threat.”*
Click to expand...



Sorry....you are wrong again in everything you post....

In particular, you cite 2 shootings...vs. the 94% where armed citizens were successful.....as in the Texas Church shooting and others.....meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings.  When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...

In the Texas church shooting, the NRA instructor with his personal AR-15 rifle, not only stopped the attack, saving at least 25 lives, he chased and cornered the attacker...and then, when the police arrived, he wasn't shot, he was escorted out of harms way and the police took over....

You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...

Then you have this....an armed American, a black American, holding a car jacker at gun point until the police arrive, and then the police shake his hand....

You don't know what you are talking about.

Nothing you post is even remotely true or accurate.

And as to etching bullet casings......again, you are an idiot.....I quoted how many shell casings one state already had, in the hundreds of thousands, and not one case was solved with them.......


----------



## 2aguy

Drive buy shooting in gun free Britain leaves 3 teenagers wounded....but......gun control?

Again....which gun control law in Britain kept this shooter from walking into a mall, a school, a church (if they still exist in Britain) a Mosque...more and more of those though........or a theater...

Please point out which gun control law stopped this from being a school shooting....

*A gunman is at large after three teenagers were shot in a drive-by attack in north London that left one of the victims fighting for life.*
*
Detectives have launched a manhunt following the shooting, which took place in a car park on the Broadwater Farm estate in Tottenham at about 12.40am on Thursday.
*
*One of the male victims, 19, is in a critical condition in hospital. A 15-year-old boy was left with possible life changing injuries, while another boy, also 15, suffered injuries that are not thought to be life-changing or threatening.









						Gunman at large after triple shooting leaves teen fighting for life
					

A gunman is at large after three teenagers were shot in a drive-by attack in north London that left one of the victims fighting for life. Detectives have launched a manhunt following the shooting, which took place in a car park on the Broadwater Farm estate in Tottenham at about 12.40am on Thursday.




					www.standard.co.uk
				



*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> As expected, I "triggered" your usual barrage of bullshit
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The micro stamp tech doesn't exist and can't work....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? If it works on diamonds... How to Read the GIA Laser Inscription on Your Diamond
> Or even by hand...read the inscription for yourself... World's smallest engraving on the edge of a razor blade It says, "nothing is impossible"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And each one of your points would limit the Right out of existence
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, so ammendments to your constitution have never been repealed in the past? Doesn't your 2nd Ammendment assume regulation is required? "A well regulated..etc"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....this is pointless busy work that does nothing...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Technology has advanced considerably, just because one scheme fails, doesn't mean you should just give up. Ever heard of the saying "If at first you don't succeed..."
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this too, is dumb and pointless....600 million guns in the U.S.........you do realize that as a gun is repeatedly fired it changes the pattern...right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CAN change the pattern due considerable to wear and tear, true. Oh, you've started posting this 600 million figure, where does that come from?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans use their legal guns to stop, on average, 1.2 million crimes a year, including rapes, robberies and murders...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gun nut fantasies aren't facts.
> As you well know, this number you keep quoting is a subjective guess; it could equally be a tenth of that or even ten times that; there are no objective records or statistics available.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 49 mass public shootings you dumb twit.......there were a total of 10 in 2019.....
> 
> US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> 2019....10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, these were shootings carried out by "law abiding" citizens  armed with legaly owned guns. Using your own sources' definition, therefore, the UK has had Zero shootings by comparison. Thanks for proving gun control works.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> and when an armed citizen happens to have their gun? In the middle of a mass public shooting?
> 
> Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your own source disagrees with you. Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters? Actually, No.
> 
> And what about cases in which citizens try to use their guns and things go terribly wrong? There are at least two examples of ill-fated attempts that you won’t see mentioned by those arguing for your kid’s teacher to start stashing a loaded Glock in her classroom:
> 
> *Shopping mall shooting in Tacoma, Washington*
> As a rampage unfolded in 2005, a civilian with a concealed-carry permit named Brendan McKown attempted to confront the assailant with his handgun. The assailant gravely wounded McKown, and shot five other people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. A comatose McKown recovered after weeks in the hospital.
> 
> *Courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas*
> 
> In 2005, a civilian named Mark Wilson, who was a firearms instructor, fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47.
> 
> *Such actions in chaotic situations don’t just put the well-intentioned citizen at risk, of course. According to Robert McMenomy, an assistant special agent in charge in the San Francisco division of the FBI, they increase the danger for innocent bystanders. (Exhibit A: the gun-wielding civilian who came really close to shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded.) They also make it more difficult for law enforcement officers to do their jobs. “In a scenario like that,” McMenomy said recently, “they wouldn’t know who was good or who was bad, and it would divert them from the real threat.”*
Click to expand...


*Your own source disagrees with you. *


*Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists.....I use them solely because they keep track of actual mass public shootings....I use their hard data, not their opinions since their opinion isn't based in facts, truth, or reality...*

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

*Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.

Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> As expected, I "triggered" your usual barrage of bullshit
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The micro stamp tech doesn't exist and can't work....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? If it works on diamonds... How to Read the GIA Laser Inscription on Your Diamond
> Or even by hand...read the inscription for yourself... World's smallest engraving on the edge of a razor blade It says, "nothing is impossible"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And each one of your points would limit the Right out of existence
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, so ammendments to your constitution have never been repealed in the past? Doesn't your 2nd Ammendment assume regulation is required? "A well regulated..etc"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....this is pointless busy work that does nothing...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Technology has advanced considerably, just because one scheme fails, doesn't mean you should just give up. Ever heard of the saying "If at first you don't succeed..."
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this too, is dumb and pointless....600 million guns in the U.S.........you do realize that as a gun is repeatedly fired it changes the pattern...right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CAN change the pattern due considerable to wear and tear, true. Oh, you've started posting this 600 million figure, where does that come from?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans use their legal guns to stop, on average, 1.2 million crimes a year, including rapes, robberies and murders...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gun nut fantasies aren't facts.
> As you well know, this number you keep quoting is a subjective guess; it could equally be a tenth of that or even ten times that; there are no objective records or statistics available.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 49 mass public shootings you dumb twit.......there were a total of 10 in 2019.....
> 
> US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> 2019....10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, these were shootings carried out by "law abiding" citizens  armed with legaly owned guns. Using your own sources' definition, therefore, the UK has had Zero shootings by comparison. Thanks for proving gun control works.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> and when an armed citizen happens to have their gun? In the middle of a mass public shooting?
> 
> Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your own source disagrees with you. Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters? Actually, No.
> 
> And what about cases in which citizens try to use their guns and things go terribly wrong? There are at least two examples of ill-fated attempts that you won’t see mentioned by those arguing for your kid’s teacher to start stashing a loaded Glock in her classroom:
> 
> *Shopping mall shooting in Tacoma, Washington*
> As a rampage unfolded in 2005, a civilian with a concealed-carry permit named Brendan McKown attempted to confront the assailant with his handgun. The assailant gravely wounded McKown, and shot five other people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. A comatose McKown recovered after weeks in the hospital.
> 
> *Courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas*
> 
> In 2005, a civilian named Mark Wilson, who was a firearms instructor, fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47.
> 
> *Such actions in chaotic situations don’t just put the well-intentioned citizen at risk, of course. According to Robert McMenomy, an assistant special agent in charge in the San Francisco division of the FBI, they increase the danger for innocent bystanders. (Exhibit A: the gun-wielding civilian who came really close to shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded.) They also make it more difficult for law enforcement officers to do their jobs. “In a scenario like that,” McMenomy said recently, “they wouldn’t know who was good or who was bad, and it would divert them from the real threat.”*
Click to expand...



Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf

And here is a look at the survey....

*..New Survey of Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs in the United States Shows Strong Support for Concealed Carry and Gun Ownership - Crime Prevention Research Center*
*
86.4% of the US’s Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs “support nationwide recognition of state issued concealed weapon permits.”*
*
76% of those same heads of departments believe that “qualied, law-abiding armed citizens help law enforcement reduce violent criminal activity.”*


----------



## 2aguy

And another shooting....again, which British gun control law stopped this guy from walking into a school, a church, a mall or a theater?









						Man blasted by shotgun suffers serious injuries
					

Police are currently in the area where an investigation is underway




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> As expected, I "triggered" your usual barrage of bullshit
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The micro stamp tech doesn't exist and can't work....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? If it works on diamonds... How to Read the GIA Laser Inscription on Your Diamond
> Or even by hand...read the inscription for yourself... World's smallest engraving on the edge of a razor blade It says, "nothing is impossible"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And each one of your points would limit the Right out of existence
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, so ammendments to your constitution have never been repealed in the past? Doesn't your 2nd Ammendment assume regulation is required? "A well regulated..etc"
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....this is pointless busy work that does nothing...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Technology has advanced considerably, just because one scheme fails, doesn't mean you should just give up. Ever heard of the saying "If at first you don't succeed..."
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this too, is dumb and pointless....600 million guns in the U.S.........you do realize that as a gun is repeatedly fired it changes the pattern...right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CAN change the pattern due considerable to wear and tear, true. Oh, you've started posting this 600 million figure, where does that come from?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans use their legal guns to stop, on average, 1.2 million crimes a year, including rapes, robberies and murders...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gun nut fantasies aren't facts.
> As you well know, this number you keep quoting is a subjective guess; it could equally be a tenth of that or even ten times that; there are no objective records or statistics available.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 49 mass public shootings you dumb twit.......there were a total of 10 in 2019.....
> 
> US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> 2019....10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, these were shootings carried out by "law abiding" citizens  armed with legaly owned guns. Using your own sources' definition, therefore, the UK has had Zero shootings by comparison. Thanks for proving gun control works.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> and when an armed citizen happens to have their gun? In the middle of a mass public shooting?
> 
> Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your own source disagrees with you. Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters? Actually, No.
> 
> And what about cases in which citizens try to use their guns and things go terribly wrong? There are at least two examples of ill-fated attempts that you won’t see mentioned by those arguing for your kid’s teacher to start stashing a loaded Glock in her classroom:
> 
> *Shopping mall shooting in Tacoma, Washington*
> As a rampage unfolded in 2005, a civilian with a concealed-carry permit named Brendan McKown attempted to confront the assailant with his handgun. The assailant gravely wounded McKown, and shot five other people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. A comatose McKown recovered after weeks in the hospital.
> 
> *Courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas*
> 
> In 2005, a civilian named Mark Wilson, who was a firearms instructor, fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47.
> 
> *Such actions in chaotic situations don’t just put the well-intentioned citizen at risk, of course. According to Robert McMenomy, an assistant special agent in charge in the San Francisco division of the FBI, they increase the danger for innocent bystanders. (Exhibit A: the gun-wielding civilian who came really close to shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded.) They also make it more difficult for law enforcement officers to do their jobs. “In a scenario like that,” McMenomy said recently, “they wouldn’t know who was good or who was bad, and it would divert them from the real threat.”*
Click to expand...



What actual police on the ground think.......

*These men and women — most of whom actually work the street — have a front row seat to see gun violence in America. They put their lives at risk when they do their jobs, actually coming face-to-face with violent encounters involving firearms.*
*-----
And when it comes to finding ways to reduce gun violence and large scale shootings, most cops say a federal ban on so-called “assault weapons” isn’t the answer.

More than 91 percent of respondents say it would either have no effect or a negative effect in reducing violent crime. This is an overwhelming response by those whose job it is to actually deal with this issue on the front lines.

Instead, it is interesting to note that many respondents consider armed citizens as a potential asset in reducing the carnage from a mass murder situation; proactive choices dominate over gun and magazine restrictions and bans.

More than 91 percent of respondents support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or not been deemed psychologically/medically incapable.

A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent).

For those who chose the option of casualties being avoided altogether, I took this to mean the deterrent effect of a show of force prior to an event would stop a potential predator from carrying out his murderous intent in the first place.

What checks the sociopath from completing his act is fear. Fear of the unknown or known gun carrier who is going to punch his ticket to hell right then and right there. This has an immediate effect on reducing violent criminal activity.

Cops on the street know the value of officer presence and being ready to go. Criminals see it too, and stay in check. I know from my own street experience how being in shape, being well prepared along with a sharp uniform appearance kept things from escalating time and time again.
*
*More than 81 percent of respondents were in favor of arming teachers and school administrators if they were properly trained and vetted or at least proficient.
---
In addition, the survey asked, “On a scale of one to five — one being low and five being high — how important do you think legally-armed citizens are to reducing crime rates overall?”*
*
Three quarters of you (75 percent) answered either four or five, with more than 50 percent answering five.
*
*What would help most in preventing large scale shootings in public? The most popular answer among respondents – at 29 percent – was “more permissive concealed carry policies for civilians,” while 20 percent choose “more-aggressive institutionalization for mentally ill persons.”*









						Police Gun Control Survey: Are legally-armed citizens the best solution to gun violence?
					

When it comes to reducing gun violence in America, nobody else in the country has anything close to the experience-based perspective from which cops can speak




					www.policeone.com


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...



Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it



2aguy said:


> In the Texas church shooting,



Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.



2aguy said:


> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...



Projecting again, I see.



2aguy said:


> And as to etching bullet casings...



It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.



2aguy said:


> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...



...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...




2aguy said:


> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.



How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?



2aguy said:


> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....



This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
Click to expand...



Again...you know nothing.....

When the police aren't right at the scene, you nitwit......in Dallas the police were at the march alongside the citizens with their pistols and rifles......so the police were right there when it happened, unlike 99% of mass public shootings where the attacker picks a gun free zone.....a zone created by banning normal people from carrying guns....you twit......  It was a march of gun owners with the police right there....the black lives matter supporter targeted the police for murder......killing 6 of them.....and the armed citizens, knowing the police were there, allowed them to do their jobs...and the police did not accidentally shoot any of the armed citizens who had AR-15 rifles on slings......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
Click to expand...


Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....

*Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*

*Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*

*In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
----------
*BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?










						In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
					

Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?




					jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
				



*









						In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
					

Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?




					jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
Click to expand...



Yes....it disagrees with you, so it doesn't count.........

Nothing you feel about guns is remotely true or accurate or backed up by actual real world situations....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again...you know nothing.....
> 
> When the police aren't right at the scene, you nitwit......in Dallas the police were at the march alongside the citizens with their pistols and rifles......so the police were right there when it happened, unlike 99% of mass public shootings where the attacker picks a gun free zone.....a zone created by banning normal people from carrying guns....you twit......  It was a march of gun owners with the police right there....the black lives matter supporter targeted the police for murder......killing 6 of them.....and the armed citizens, knowing the police were there, allowed them to do their jobs...and the police did not accidentally shoot any of the armed citizens who had AR-15 rifles on slings......
Click to expand...

So faced with an active shooter, this bunch of fully amed ammosexuals either a) stood around making targets of themselves frozen in abject terror, b) ran for cover n abject panic or c) abandoned the police to their deaths. Whatever the reason this was Not a good advert for carrying guns to protect against armed attacks 

Oh, and the police are trained to deal with armed attackers, another good reason not to give guns to amateurs


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
Click to expand...

Protected by soldiers or volunteer security who are more than likely ex military or law enforcement.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....it disagrees with you, so it doesn't count.........
> 
> Nothing you feel about guns is remotely true or accurate or backed up by actual real world situations....
Click to expand...

You do keep on projecting, don't you.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again...you know nothing.....
> 
> When the police aren't right at the scene, you nitwit......in Dallas the police were at the march alongside the citizens with their pistols and rifles......so the police were right there when it happened, unlike 99% of mass public shootings where the attacker picks a gun free zone.....a zone created by banning normal people from carrying guns....you twit......  It was a march of gun owners with the police right there....the black lives matter supporter targeted the police for murder......killing 6 of them.....and the armed citizens, knowing the police were there, allowed them to do their jobs...and the police did not accidentally shoot any of the armed citizens who had AR-15 rifles on slings......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So faced with an active shooter, this bunch of fully amed ammosexuals either a) stood around making targets of themselves frozen in abject terror, b) ran for cover n abject panic or c) abandoned the police to their deaths. Whatever the reason this was Not a good advert for carrying guns to protect against armed attacks
> 
> Oh, and the police are trained to deal with armed attackers, another good reason not to give guns to amateurs
Click to expand...



No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.


The Armed citizens stepped back and out of the way and allowed the police to do their jobs.   No fear involved, they just showed that what you believe about American gun owners is based in your own ignorance and gross stupidity.  

They let the professionals who were on scene handle it....had the police been 10-15 minutes away during an attack where they were armed, these citizens would have bravely stepped up to save lives....unlike in your country where you would simply die .......

You don't know anything about guns or the gun issues......you will find out...as the criminals in Britain are showing, daily, that they don't fear your police or your laws....and they are using guns more and more against each other to take over drug turf.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Protected by soldiers or volunteer security who are more than likely ex military or law enforcement.
Click to expand...



Showing that your country is even more dangerous than the United States when it comes to violence directed against religious communities, you doofus....the threat is so bad in Britian you need trained professionals with guns to protect those Jewish places of worship....you dumb ass.....

While here, we show that armed citizens can keep killers away from our churches, since mass public shooters choose gun free zones to attack.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94%
> 
> Again...you know nothing..
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really must stop projecting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
Click to expand...

Since 1999 there have been 1705 shootings in American places of worship, resulting in 615 deaths. Over the same time period there have been 0 such shootings in the UK. Gun control works.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again...you know nothing.....
> 
> When the police aren't right at the scene, you nitwit......in Dallas the police were at the march alongside the citizens with their pistols and rifles......so the police were right there when it happened, unlike 99% of mass public shootings where the attacker picks a gun free zone.....a zone created by banning normal people from carrying guns....you twit......  It was a march of gun owners with the police right there....the black lives matter supporter targeted the police for murder......killing 6 of them.....and the armed citizens, knowing the police were there, allowed them to do their jobs...and the police did not accidentally shoot any of the armed citizens who had AR-15 rifles on slings......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So faced with an active shooter, this bunch of fully amed ammosexuals either a) stood around making targets of themselves frozen in abject terror, b) ran for cover n abject panic or c) abandoned the police to their deaths. Whatever the reason this was Not a good advert for carrying guns to protect against armed attacks
> 
> Oh, and the police are trained to deal with armed attackers, another good reason not to give guns to amateurs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> 
> The Armed citizens stepped back and out of the way and allowed the police to do their jobs.   No fear involved, they just showed that what you believe about American gun owners is based in your own ignorance and gross stupidity.
> 
> They let the professionals who were on scene handle it....had the police been 10-15 minutes away during an attack where they were armed, these citizens would have bravely stepped up to save lives....unlike in your country where you would simply die .......
> 
> You don't know anything about guns or the gun issues......you will find out...as the criminals in Britain are showing, daily, that they don't fear your police or your laws....and they are using guns more and more against each other to take over drug turf.....
Click to expand...

Got it, so in a chaotic shooting situation, this horde of ammosexuals, calmly walked away leaving six dead police officers rather than render assistance, wonder what their comrades in those police forces that participated in your survey would think about their responses in favour of armed civilians reducing gun crime?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94%
> 
> Again...you know nothing..
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really must stop projecting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since 1999 there have been 1705 shootings in American places of worship, resulting in 615 deaths. Over the same time period there have been 0 such shootings in the UK. Gun control works.
Click to expand...



Wrong, you twit.

Again......in Britain, you twit.....you have to have professional security and military personnel to protect Jewish places of worship....that is how dangerous it is to be Jewish in Britain and on the Continent.   

You have criminals in Britain with guns....and bullets.......none of your gun control laws stop them from walking into schools, churches, malls or theaters........and more guns are flooding Britain each year as your immigrant gangs use them to protect their gun turf.....and they don't care about the British police, laws or customs...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again...you know nothing.....
> 
> When the police aren't right at the scene, you nitwit......in Dallas the police were at the march alongside the citizens with their pistols and rifles......so the police were right there when it happened, unlike 99% of mass public shootings where the attacker picks a gun free zone.....a zone created by banning normal people from carrying guns....you twit......  It was a march of gun owners with the police right there....the black lives matter supporter targeted the police for murder......killing 6 of them.....and the armed citizens, knowing the police were there, allowed them to do their jobs...and the police did not accidentally shoot any of the armed citizens who had AR-15 rifles on slings......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So faced with an active shooter, this bunch of fully amed ammosexuals either a) stood around making targets of themselves frozen in abject terror, b) ran for cover n abject panic or c) abandoned the police to their deaths. Whatever the reason this was Not a good advert for carrying guns to protect against armed attacks
> 
> Oh, and the police are trained to deal with armed attackers, another good reason not to give guns to amateurs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> 
> The Armed citizens stepped back and out of the way and allowed the police to do their jobs.   No fear involved, they just showed that what you believe about American gun owners is based in your own ignorance and gross stupidity.
> 
> They let the professionals who were on scene handle it....had the police been 10-15 minutes away during an attack where they were armed, these citizens would have bravely stepped up to save lives....unlike in your country where you would simply die .......
> 
> You don't know anything about guns or the gun issues......you will find out...as the criminals in Britain are showing, daily, that they don't fear your police or your laws....and they are using guns more and more against each other to take over drug turf.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Got it, so in a chaotic shooting situation, this horde of ammosexuals, calmly walked away leaving six dead police officers rather than render assistance, wonder what their comrades in those police forces that participated in your survey would think about their responses in favour of armed civilians reducing gun crime?
Click to expand...



Are you really this stupid....or do you just pretend to be this stupid when you post.

There were professional first responders on the scene you dumb ass....you just can't explain how your theory is so wrong, when we had actual armed citizens on the scene of a democrat party,  black lives matter shooting which killed 6 police officers, but none of the armed citizens was accidentally shot by police, and none of the police were shot by armed citizens....how the American armed citizens did not get in the way and did not obstruct dealing with the democrat party, black lives matter supporter who was murdering police officers...

You can't explain how your theory fell apart and nothing you say would happen, actually happened in the real world.......

You have nothing....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94%
> 
> Again...you know nothing..
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really must stop projecting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since 1999 there have been 1705 shootings in American places of worship, resulting in 615 deaths. Over the same time period there have been 0 such shootings in the UK. Gun control works.
Click to expand...



No link...of course.....


----------



## 2aguy

Daylight shooting in Britain.....gun free Britain....

Again, which gun control laws kept this shooter from going to a school?

*Police officers were called to Abbeville Road, in Clapham, at 5.26 today following reports of a shooting.*
*
Paramedics from the London Ambulance Service attended the incident with officers.
*
*A man in his 20s was found with shotgun injuries, which have been assessed as non life-threatening.*









						London shooting: Horror attack in Clapham in broad daylight - roads closed off
					

A MAN has been found with multiple gunshot injuries in Abbeville Road, in Clapham, London.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Daylight shooting in Britain.....gun free Britain....
> 
> Again, which gun control laws kept this shooter from going to a school?
> 
> *Police officers were called to Abbeville Road, in Clapham, at 5.26 today following reports of a shooting.*
> 
> *Paramedics from the London Ambulance Service attended the incident with officers.*
> 
> *A man in his 20s was found with shotgun injuries, which have been assessed as non life-threatening.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London shooting: Horror attack in Clapham in broad daylight - roads closed off
> 
> 
> A MAN has been found with multiple gunshot injuries in Abbeville Road, in Clapham, London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.express.co.uk


I think there was a shooting in Liverpool as well. You missed that one. That would make 2 shootings in the UK.


----------



## Parker99

I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Parker99 said:


> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.


We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> Parker99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.
Click to expand...



No......you have a massive welfare state that you can't afford, and it is cutting into every other budget item ........... and the police are no longer respected by the immigrant drug gangs in your country.


----------



## Parker99

If you look at the countries that have most shooting it is in South America.






Most of these shootings are street gangs and drug dealers shooting other drug dealers.

These countries do have strict gun laws. He was just saying street gangs and drug dealers get the their guns of the street not at gun store.

That is what he was saying.


----------



## Parker99

Tommy Tainant said:


> Parker99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.
Click to expand...


If you look at the US and Europe gun ownership is similar.






He was saying it is culture and poverty is the reason not gun laws.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Parker99 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you look at the US and Europe gun ownership is similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was saying it is culture and poverty is the reason not gun laws.
Click to expand...

There is no similarity in the number of guns owned.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No......you have a massive welfare state that you can't afford, and it is cutting into every other budget item ........... and the police are no longer respected by the immigrant drug gangs in your country.
Click to expand...

Another factoid plucked from your backside. Do you have a link ?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94%
> 
> Again...you know nothing..
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really must stop projecting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since 1999 there have been 1705 shootings in American places of worship, resulting in 615 deaths. Over the same time period there have been 0 such shootings in the UK. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No link...of course.....
Click to expand...

Currently travelling to Spain to finalise my house purchase so have limited access to the Internet and my saved links. If you are that interested, Google number of church shootings in the US, interesting reading. By comparison UK has had ZERO church shootings. Gun control works. I will pick this up again when I have a stable Internet connection.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No......you have a massive welfare state that you can't afford, and it is cutting into every other budget item ........... and the police are no longer respected by the immigrant drug gangs in your country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another factoid plucked from your backside. Do you have a link ?
Click to expand...




Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94%
> 
> Again...you know nothing..
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really must stop projecting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since 1999 there have been 1705 shootings in American places of worship, resulting in 615 deaths. Over the same time period there have been 0 such shootings in the UK. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No link...of course.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Currently travelling to Spain to finalise my house purchase so have limited access to the Internet and my saved links. If you are that interested, Google number of church shootings in the US, interesting reading. By comparison UK has had ZERO church shootings. Gun control works. I will pick this up again when I have a stable Internet connection.
Click to expand...


Again....as to your churches....I have shown crime after crime, criminals with guns.....ignoring all of your gun control laws to shoot other criminals.....

You can't show us which British gun control law kept these criminals...with guns and bullets already in their possession, from walking into a church and shooting the people in that church...while the unarmed bobbies sit on their hands........

Gun control doesn't work in Britain...your criminals simply don't choose to murder people the way our criminals in democrat party controlled cities choose to shoot each other....

And.....

Again, in Britain...you have trained military and police standing guard at Jewish synagogues and schools....heavily armed soldiers and police to keep them safe from your muslim immigrant populations...

We used trained civilians......and the churches in our country that were attacked?   Were gun free zones......

And when we had armed civilians?  they stopped the attacks long before the police were able to arrive.....you won't have that ability because the majority of your police are without guns..........


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94%
> 
> Again...you know nothing..
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really must stop projecting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since 1999 there have been 1705 shootings in American places of worship, resulting in 615 deaths. Over the same time period there have been 0 such shootings in the UK. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No link...of course.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Currently travelling to Spain to finalise my house purchase so have limited access to the Internet and my saved links. If you are that interested, Google number of church shootings in the US, interesting reading. By comparison UK has had ZERO church shootings. Gun control works. I will pick this up again when I have a stable Internet connection.
Click to expand...



Oh, by the way....how did gun control work in Ireland?   You twit.   The only gun control that worked was the IRA got old and tired..........while your gun control was so effective there your troops had to travel in heavily armed patrols....

So please...sell your "gun control works," crap to someone dumb enough to believe it....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94%
> 
> Again...you know nothing..
> 
> 
> No......since you are an idiot, you would post something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really must stop projecting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...meanwhile, even in the Black Lives Matter shooting in Dallas, Texas....where 6 police officers were murdered by a supporter of black lives matter, there were armed citizens marching, many with rifles on slings. When the attack happened, they simply found cover and let the police handle the attack...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well that directly contradicts your assertions about armed citizens being instrumental in stopping active shooter incidents. It also proves my point that you don't need guns to defend yourself, let the police handle it
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Texas church shooting,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make up crap all the time with no knowledge of truth, facts or reality...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Projecting again, I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as to etching bullet casings...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It may not work now, but who knows, as technology gets better, we may have a viable ammunition control system. The Swiss already have rudementary ammunition control, why not America. Solves your 2nd ammendment issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mother Jones is an anti-gun magazine...run by rabidly anti-gun extremists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and concealed carry.com is a pro-gun website...run by rabidly pro-gun extremists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many of these "successful" armed citizens were off duty or retired military, security, or law enforcement, who had training in dealing with this type of situations?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what the majority of police chiefs say about armed Americans.....
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/NACOP-surveyresults-2016.pdf
> 
> And here is a look at the survey....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This made me howl with laughter, 729 Police Chiefs were in the sample, your 94%  headline means 692 were in favour...out of over 18,000 Police forces in the USA. 94% of less than 4% of possible respondents, please, stop, oh my aching ribs...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron...you really are ignorant and uninformed....
> 
> *Which one? There have been so many, and in just about every case the gunmen were law abiding citizens armed with legal firearms. The fact that churches in America NEED armed security speaks volumes in favour of gun control.*
> 
> *Since you Europeans are rabid anti-semites and look the other way as muslims gang rape your young girls, the Synagogues in Europe have men with guns protecting them...dittos their Jewish schools...*
> 
> *In several European countries, synagogues are under constant protection of police or army troops. Most of them have volunteer guards, including armed ones. Many also have a security command room, where trained professionals or volunteers use elaborate video surveillance systems to monitor their premises, often while exchanging information with other Jewish institutions in real time.*
> ----------
> *BRUSSELS — Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Europe, synagogues are protected like fortresses. That took decades
> 
> 
> Will security at American Jewish institutions now mirror that of Europe, with its police protection, armed guards, panic rooms and sterile zones at synagogues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since 1999 there have been 1705 shootings in American places of worship, resulting in 615 deaths. Over the same time period there have been 0 such shootings in the UK. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No link...of course.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Currently travelling to Spain to finalise my house purchase so have limited access to the Internet and my saved links. If you are that interested, Google number of church shootings in the US, interesting reading. By comparison UK has had ZERO church shootings. Gun control works. I will pick this up again when I have a stable Internet connection.
Click to expand...



When your criminals decide to start murdering each other in large numbers, your gun control won't stop them.....as it didn't stop the IRA when they wanted weapons......

*In the mid-1980s, the Provisional IRA received large quantities of modern weaponry, including heavy weaponry such as heavy machine guns, over 1,000 rifles, several hundred handguns, rocket-propelled grenades, flamethrowers, surface-to-air missiles and the plastic explosive Semtex, from the Libyan regime of Muammar Gaddafi. *

*There were four successful shipments between 1985 and 1986; three of these trips were carried out by the trawler Casamara and a fourth by the oil-rig replenisher Villa. All told, they brought in 110 tons of weaponry.[88][89][90] A fifth arms cargo on board the coaster Eksund was intercepted by the French Navy in 1987.[91] This brought the Provisional IRA's new capability to the attention of the authorities on either side of the Irish border. Five men were captured with the boat; three IRA members, including Gabriel Cleary, received jail sentences.[92] Reportedly, Gaddafi donated enough weapons to arm the equivalent of two infantry battalions.[93]*

*The IRA therefore came to be very well armed in the latter part of the Troubles. Most of the losses it inflicted on the British Army, however, occurred in the early 1970s, although they continued to cause substantial casualties to the British military, the RUC and UDR throughout the conflict.*


*According to author Ed Moloney, the IRA Army Council had plans for a dramatic escalation of the conflict in the late 1980s, which they likened to the Tet Offensive of the Vietnam War, with the aid of the arms obtained from Libya.[citation needed]
------*

*The success of the arms smuggling was a defeat for British intelligence and marked a turning point in the conflict in Northern Ireland.[96] The Libyan weaponry allowed the IRA to wage war indefinitely.[97]*









						Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 2aguy

Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...

*A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
*
Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.
*
*Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*









						Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
					

A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk


Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
Click to expand...



Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
Click to expand...

Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
Click to expand...



I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.

The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.


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## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
Click to expand...

I think somebody got shot in Birmingham last week which totally proves your point that gun control doesnt work.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No......you have a massive welfare state that you can't afford, and it is cutting into every other budget item ........... and the police are no longer respected by the immigrant drug gangs in your country.
Click to expand...

Actually as a percentage of government spending America spends more on welfare than does the UK. Our welfare state is very affordable especially if we could cut back on vanity projects like super carriers.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
Click to expand...

Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?


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## Vagabond63

Watch the film Falling Down then talk to me about Normal Americans


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think big question is why France, UK and Sweden are allowing people to rape people and assault people. You would think they would have tougher jail time and more cops out on the road.But thay are doing the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> We have a conservative government who have run down our police force. Its still safer here than the US though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No......you have a massive welfare state that you can't afford, and it is cutting into every other budget item ........... and the police are no longer respected by the immigrant drug gangs in your country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually as a percentage of government spending America spends more on welfare than does the UK. Our welfare state is very affordable especially if we could cut back on vanity projects like super carriers.
Click to expand...



Yes....why would you need a military to protect you when you can just sponge off of the United States.......

If not for us, your welfare state would collapse....and you would be looking at a continent across the channel controlled by putin....


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
Click to expand...



Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....

UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center

*“32% of households have guns”*
*In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
===========
Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News

Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations. 

Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.

The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.

These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.

A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.


There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014. 

---------------*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
Click to expand...



And again, you don't know what you are talking about....normal people do not turn into murderers, especially of friends and family simply because they own or carry a gun....that is one of the big lies morons like you try to promote.....and it isn't based on anything other than a cheap attempt to demean gun owners and lie about them to get support for gun control....

http://www.jurist.org/forum/2013/02/don-kates-crimonology-firearms.php


Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

*Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. *

*The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.*

*While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. 

Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
=====*

Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing

*Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
*
That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.



(17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)



 Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
*
*Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)
======*

Roy Exum: How We Stop The Bullets

David Kennedy, a renowned criminal justice professor and co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities, believes that places like the 1500 block of East 50th Street where Deontrey was killed, or Central Avenue where two other Chattanoogans were shot around the same time, aren’t necessarily bad areas. Good people live in those areas, just as the overwhelming numbers of those who live in our inner city are decent and law-abiding citizens.

No, our new focus isn’t on neighborhoods like Alton Park or East Chattanooga but instead on “hot” places” and “hot” people. In an article entitled, “The Story Behind the Nation’s Falling Body Count,” Kennedy writes, “Research on hot spots shows violence to be concentrated in ‘micro’ places, rather than ‘dangerous neighborhoods,’ as the popular idea goes. Blocks, corners, and buildings representing just five or six percent of an entire city will drive half of its serious crime.”

*The same is true about people. “We now know that homicide and gun violence are overwhelmingly concentrated among serious offenders operating in groups: gangs, drug crews, and the like representing under half of one percent of a city's population who commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”

Read it once more: “ … under half of one percent … commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”*

It is vitally important for us to realize the recent “worst of the worst” roundup had very little to do with race, yet to the uninformed it clearly appeared that only blacks were targeted. 

Try to forget that all were black and focus instead on the far greater fact – there is ample evidence that each is alleged to be a serious criminal.

Kennedy writes, “We also know some reliable predictors of risk: individuals who have a history of violence or a close connection with prior victims are far more likely to be involved in violence themselves.


*Hot groups and people are so hot that when their offending is statistically abstracted, their neighborhoods cease to be dangerous. Their communities aren't dangerous; (these criminals) are.”
====*

When Gun Violence Felt Like a Disease, a City in Delaware Turned to the C.D.C.



When epidemiologists from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention came to this city, they were not here to track an outbreak of meningitis or study the effectiveness of a particular vaccine.

They were here to examine gun violence.

This city of about 70,000 had a 45 percent jump in shootings from 2011 to 2013, and the violence has remained stubbornly high; 25 shooting deaths have been reported this year, slightly more than last year, according to the mayor’s office
.-------



The final report, which has been submitted to the state, reached a conclusion that many here said they already knew: that there are certain patterns in the lives of many who commit gun violence.
*“The majority of individuals involved in urban firearm violence are young men with substantial violence involvement preceding the more serious offense of a firearm crime,”
======*

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I. VIOLENCE: THE DECISIVENESS OF SOCIAL FACTORS 

One reason the extent of gun ownership in a society does not spur the murder rate is that murderers are not spread evenly throughout the population. Analysis of perpetrator studies shows that violent criminals—especially murderers—“almost  uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behav‐ ior.”37 So it would not appreciably raise violence if all law‐ abiding, responsible people had firearms because they are not the ones who rape, rob, or murder.38 By the same token, violent crime would not fall if guns were totally banned to civilians. As the respective examples of Luxembourg and Russia suggest,39 individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use. 40 

--------------------------




III. DO ORDINARY PEOPLE MURDER?

The “more guns equal more death” mantra seems plausible only when viewed through the rubric that murders mostly in‐ volve ordinary people who kill because they have access to a firearm when they get angry. If this were true, murder might well increase where people have ready access to firearms, but the available data provides no such correlation. Nations and


areas with more guns per capita do not have higher murder rates than those with fewer guns per capita.53

Nevertheless, critics of gun ownership often argue that a “gun in the closet to protect against burglars will most likely be used to shoot a spouse in a moment of rage . . . . The problem is you and me—law‐abiding folks;”54 that banning handgun posses‐ sion only for those with criminal records will “fail to protect us from the most likely source of handgun murder: ordinary citi‐ zens;”55 that “most gun‐related homicides . . . are the result of impulsive actions taken by individuals who have little or no criminal background or who are known to the victims;”56 that “the majority of firearm homicide[s occur] . . . not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other;”57 that each year there are thousands of gun murders “by law‐abiding citizens who might have stayed law‐abiding if they had not possessed firearms.”58

*These comments appear to rest on no evidence and actually con‐ tradict facts that have so uniformly been established by homicide studies dating back to the 1890s that they have become “crimino‐ logical axioms.”59 Insofar as studies focus on perpetrators, they show that neither a majority, nor many, nor virtually any murder‐ ers are ordinary “law‐abiding citizens.”*60 

*Rather, almost all mur‐ derers are extremely aberrant individuals with life histories of violence, psychopathology, substance abuse, and other dangerous behaviors. “The vast majority of persons involved in life‐ threatening violence have a long criminal record with many prior contacts with the justice system.”61 “Thus homicide—[whether] of a*

stranger or [of] someone known to the offender—‘is usually part of a pattern of violence, engaged in by people who are known . . . as violence prone.’”62 

*Though only 15% of Americans over the age of 15 have arrest records,63 approximately 90 percent of “adult mur‐ derers have adult records, with an average adult criminal career [involving crimes committed as an adult rather than a child] of six or more years, including four major adult felony arrests.”64 *

These national statistics dovetail with data from local nineteenth and twentieth century studies. For example: victims as well as offenders [in 1950s and 1960s Philadelphia murders] . . . tended to be people with prior police records, usually for violent crimes such as as‐ sault.”65 


“The great majority of both perpetrators and victims of [1970s Harlem] assaults and murders had previous [adult] arrests, probably over 80% or more.”66 Boston police and probation officers in the 1990s agreed that of those juvenile‐perpetrated murders where all the facts were known, virtually all were committed by gang members, though the killing was not necessarily gang‐ directed. 67 One example would be a gang member who stabs his girlfriend to death in a fit of anger.68 Regardless of their arrests for other crimes, 80% of 1997 Atlanta murder arrestees had at least one earlier drug offense with 70% having 3 or more prior drug of‐ fenses.69 

*A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders committed in that city in the years 2003–2005 found that “[m]ore than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.”70 Baltimore police figures show that “92 percent of murder suspects had [prior] criminal records in 2006.”71 Several of the more recent homicide studies just reviewed 


********
*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Watch the film Falling Down then talk to me about Normal Americans




I'd rather watch "Train Spotting," to learn about you Brits and Scots....


----------



## Parker99

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
Click to expand...


Not sure what you mean are you saying there is more shootings in the UK than the US because if that is what you are saying that is not the case.

The US has way more shooting than the UK.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
Click to expand...

Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
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> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you don't know what you are talking about....normal people do not turn into murderers, especially of friends and family simply because they own or carry a gun....that is one of the big lies morons like you try to promote.....and it isn't based on anything other than a cheap attempt to demean gun owners and lie about them to get support for gun control....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> 
> 
> Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> *Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. *
> 
> *The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.*
> 
> *While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies.
> 
> Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> =====*
> 
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)*
> 
> *Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)
> ======*
> 
> Roy Exum: How We Stop The Bullets
> 
> David Kennedy, a renowned criminal justice professor and co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities, believes that places like the 1500 block of East 50th Street where Deontrey was killed, or Central Avenue where two other Chattanoogans were shot around the same time, aren’t necessarily bad areas. Good people live in those areas, just as the overwhelming numbers of those who live in our inner city are decent and law-abiding citizens.
> 
> No, our new focus isn’t on neighborhoods like Alton Park or East Chattanooga but instead on “hot” places” and “hot” people. In an article entitled, “The Story Behind the Nation’s Falling Body Count,” Kennedy writes, “Research on hot spots shows violence to be concentrated in ‘micro’ places, rather than ‘dangerous neighborhoods,’ as the popular idea goes. Blocks, corners, and buildings representing just five or six percent of an entire city will drive half of its serious crime.”
> 
> *The same is true about people. “We now know that homicide and gun violence are overwhelmingly concentrated among serious offenders operating in groups: gangs, drug crews, and the like representing under half of one percent of a city's population who commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”
> 
> Read it once more: “ … under half of one percent … commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”*
> 
> It is vitally important for us to realize the recent “worst of the worst” roundup had very little to do with race, yet to the uninformed it clearly appeared that only blacks were targeted.
> 
> Try to forget that all were black and focus instead on the far greater fact – there is ample evidence that each is alleged to be a serious criminal.
> 
> Kennedy writes, “We also know some reliable predictors of risk: individuals who have a history of violence or a close connection with prior victims are far more likely to be involved in violence themselves.
> 
> 
> *Hot groups and people are so hot that when their offending is statistically abstracted, their neighborhoods cease to be dangerous. Their communities aren't dangerous; (these criminals) are.”
> ====*
> 
> When Gun Violence Felt Like a Disease, a City in Delaware Turned to the C.D.C.
> 
> 
> 
> When epidemiologists from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention came to this city, they were not here to track an outbreak of meningitis or study the effectiveness of a particular vaccine.
> 
> They were here to examine gun violence.
> 
> This city of about 70,000 had a 45 percent jump in shootings from 2011 to 2013, and the violence has remained stubbornly high; 25 shooting deaths have been reported this year, slightly more than last year, according to the mayor’s office
> .-------
> 
> 
> 
> The final report, which has been submitted to the state, reached a conclusion that many here said they already knew: that there are certain patterns in the lives of many who commit gun violence.
> *“The majority of individuals involved in urban firearm violence are young men with substantial violence involvement preceding the more serious offense of a firearm crime,”
> ======*
> 
> http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
> 
> I. VIOLENCE: THE DECISIVENESS OF SOCIAL FACTORS
> 
> One reason the extent of gun ownership in a society does not spur the murder rate is that murderers are not spread evenly throughout the population. Analysis of perpetrator studies shows that violent criminals—especially murderers—“almost  uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behav‐ ior.”37 So it would not appreciably raise violence if all law‐ abiding, responsible people had firearms because they are not the ones who rape, rob, or murder.38 By the same token, violent crime would not fall if guns were totally banned to civilians. As the respective examples of Luxembourg and Russia suggest,39 individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use. 40
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> III. DO ORDINARY PEOPLE MURDER?
> 
> The “more guns equal more death” mantra seems plausible only when viewed through the rubric that murders mostly in‐ volve ordinary people who kill because they have access to a firearm when they get angry. If this were true, murder might well increase where people have ready access to firearms, but the available data provides no such correlation. Nations and
> 
> 
> areas with more guns per capita do not have higher murder rates than those with fewer guns per capita.53
> 
> Nevertheless, critics of gun ownership often argue that a “gun in the closet to protect against burglars will most likely be used to shoot a spouse in a moment of rage . . . . The problem is you and me—law‐abiding folks;”54 that banning handgun posses‐ sion only for those with criminal records will “fail to protect us from the most likely source of handgun murder: ordinary citi‐ zens;”55 that “most gun‐related homicides . . . are the result of impulsive actions taken by individuals who have little or no criminal background or who are known to the victims;”56 that “the majority of firearm homicide[s occur] . . . not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other;”57 that each year there are thousands of gun murders “by law‐abiding citizens who might have stayed law‐abiding if they had not possessed firearms.”58
> 
> *These comments appear to rest on no evidence and actually con‐ tradict facts that have so uniformly been established by homicide studies dating back to the 1890s that they have become “crimino‐ logical axioms.”59 Insofar as studies focus on perpetrators, they show that neither a majority, nor many, nor virtually any murder‐ ers are ordinary “law‐abiding citizens.”*60
> 
> *Rather, almost all mur‐ derers are extremely aberrant individuals with life histories of violence, psychopathology, substance abuse, and other dangerous behaviors. “The vast majority of persons involved in life‐ threatening violence have a long criminal record with many prior contacts with the justice system.”61 “Thus homicide—[whether] of a*
> 
> stranger or [of] someone known to the offender—‘is usually part of a pattern of violence, engaged in by people who are known . . . as violence prone.’”62
> 
> *Though only 15% of Americans over the age of 15 have arrest records,63 approximately 90 percent of “adult mur‐ derers have adult records, with an average adult criminal career [involving crimes committed as an adult rather than a child] of six or more years, including four major adult felony arrests.”64 *
> 
> These national statistics dovetail with data from local nineteenth and twentieth century studies. For example: victims as well as offenders [in 1950s and 1960s Philadelphia murders] . . . tended to be people with prior police records, usually for violent crimes such as as‐ sault.”65
> 
> 
> “The great majority of both perpetrators and victims of [1970s Harlem] assaults and murders had previous [adult] arrests, probably over 80% or more.”66 Boston police and probation officers in the 1990s agreed that of those juvenile‐perpetrated murders where all the facts were known, virtually all were committed by gang members, though the killing was not necessarily gang‐ directed. 67 One example would be a gang member who stabs his girlfriend to death in a fit of anger.68 Regardless of their arrests for other crimes, 80% of 1997 Atlanta murder arrestees had at least one earlier drug offense with 70% having 3 or more prior drug of‐ fenses.69
> 
> *A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders committed in that city in the years 2003–2005 found that “[m]ore than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.”70 Baltimore police figures show that “92 percent of murder suspects had [prior] criminal records in 2006.”71 Several of the more recent homicide studies just reviewed
> 
> 
> *********
Click to expand...

Don Kates, lawyer employed by the hopefully soon to be defunct NRA, to advocate against any form of gun control, very credible.


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## Vagabond63

Parker99 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
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> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean are you saying there is more shootings in the UK than the US because if that is what you are saying that is not the case.
> 
> The US has way more shooting than the UK.
Click to expand...

I know, that was my point. We have gun controls that work for us.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 
> 
> Watch the film Falling Down then talk to me about Normal Americans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd rather watch "Train Spotting," to learn about you Brits and Scots....
Click to expand...

And not a real gun in sight. Lives are shit on both sides of the pond. We just deal with it differently.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
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> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
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> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
Click to expand...

It makes me smile whenever I hear "land of the free and the home of the brave" describing a country with the highest incarceration rate on the planet, and the highest rate of gun ownership per capita. Not much freedom and a lot of cowards that need guns to feel safe.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
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> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It makes me smile whenever I hear "land of the free and the home of the brave" describing a country with the highest incarceration rate on the planet, and the highest rate of gun ownership per capita. Not much freedom and a lot of cowards that need guns to feel safe.
Click to expand...



Posts the moron that lives in a country protected by the guns of the United States.....a country that can no longer support ships, jets or a decent military.......while they suck at the tit of the U.S. to pay for their welfare and healthcare....


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
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> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
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> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.
Click to expand...



Yeah....you morons registered your guns, then later used those lists to confiscate them........


----------



## 2aguy

Artist and children's author shot and critically injured  in gun free Britain.....

*An artist and children’s author was the victim of a shooting in a quiet Hampshire village in which the suspect fled on a motorcycle before crashing in a police chase and dying.*
*
James Nash, who is also a parish councillor, suffered critical head injuries. Police are continuing to investigate the motive for the attack.


The shooting took place in the village of Upper Enham on Wednesday afternoon, where Nash, 42, and his wife, Sarah, a specialist in satellite technology with a government agency, live in a cottage.
*
*The shooting suspect is believed to have left the scene on foot before jumping on to a motorcycle. The 34-year-old crashed the bike three miles away during a police chase.*









						Artist critically wounded in Hampshire shooting as suspect dies in chase
					

Children’s writer James Nash is shot by attacker who fled on a motorcycle, which he crashed




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
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> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It makes me smile whenever I hear "land of the free and the home of the brave" describing a country with the highest incarceration rate on the planet, and the highest rate of gun ownership per capita. Not much freedom and a lot of cowards that need guns to feel safe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Posts the moron that lives in a country protected by the guns of the United States.....a country that can no longer support ships, jets or a decent military.......while they suck at the tit of the U.S. to pay for their welfare and healthcare....
Click to expand...

Oh dear, it seems I struck a nerve there. Too close to the truth it seems


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It makes me smile whenever I hear "land of the free and the home of the brave" describing a country with the highest incarceration rate on the planet, and the highest rate of gun ownership per capita. Not much freedom and a lot of cowards that need guns to feel safe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Posts the moron that lives in a country protected by the guns of the United States.....a country that can no longer support ships, jets or a decent military.......while they suck at the tit of the U.S. to pay for their welfare and healthcare....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh dear, it seems I struck a nerve there. Too close to the truth it seems
Click to expand...


Truth....you didn't get close to it....however, it is true that American guns keep Britain safe.....so you can spend all of your money on your welfare state and failing healthcare system......you guys can't even put ships out to sea anymore.....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....you morons registered your guns, then later used those lists to confiscate them........
Click to expand...

Urm, we still have our rifles, shotguns and, yes, even pistols. Someone's not been paying attention. All that was made illegal were semi automatic pistols with barrel lengths less than 12 inches and assault weapons of all kinds. You need to try a lot harder to intimidate us with your fear mongering.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....you morons registered your guns, then later used those lists to confiscate them........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Urm, we still have our rifles, shotguns and, yes, even pistols. Someone's not been paying attention. All that was made illegal were semi automatic pistols with barrel lengths less than 12 inches and assault weapons of all kinds. You need to try a lot harder to intimidate us with your fear mongering.
Click to expand...



No fear mongering, truth telling.   So...you have those guns and your criminals don't commit murder with them......gun control doesn't work, you just have criminals who don't want to murder each other....you also don't have people who want to walk into churches and schools to shoot people....

Yet....your immigrant drug gangs are importing more and more guns to protect their drug turf.....

And I notice you didn't address the fact that American guns keep your country safe.......showing the ingratitude of welfare state sponges...


----------



## 2aguy

More shootings in gun free Britain...

A man is in a serious condition in hospital following a double shooting in South London.

Police rushed to Rollins Street in New Cross shortly after 4am this morning (Friday, August 7).

At the scene they found a man, aged 27, with two gunshot wounds - one to his chest and another to his body.

He was treated at the scene by paramedics from London Ambulance Service before being taken to hospital, where he remains in a serious, but stable, condition.

At around 4.30am a second man attended hospital with a gunshot wound to his hand. His condition is non life-threatening.

The investigation is being led by detectives from the Met's Specialist Crime Command.









						Updates as man in serious condition after South London double shooting
					

Police were called to Rollins Street shortly after 4am this morning




					www.mylondon.news


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Artist and children's author shot and critically injured  in gun free Britain.....
> 
> *An artist and children’s author was the victim of a shooting in a quiet Hampshire village in which the suspect fled on a motorcycle before crashing in a police chase and dying.*
> 
> *James Nash, who is also a parish councillor, suffered critical head injuries. Police are continuing to investigate the motive for the attack.
> 
> 
> The shooting took place in the village of Upper Enham on Wednesday afternoon, where Nash, 42, and his wife, Sarah, a specialist in satellite technology with a government agency, live in a cottage.*
> 
> *The shooting suspect is believed to have left the scene on foot before jumping on to a motorcycle. The 34-year-old crashed the bike three miles away during a police chase.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artist critically wounded in Hampshire shooting as suspect dies in chase
> 
> 
> Children’s writer James Nash is shot by attacker who fled on a motorcycle, which he crashed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Sad that Mr Nash was killed by some deranged neo nazi lunatic who thought he was being spied on by the government (sound familiar, there are so many in the US) but proof that gun control works as he had to make his own shotgun from scratch rather than just walk into his local gun shop or gun fair if he was in America. This is the exception that proves the rule.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> More shootings in gun free Britain...
> 
> A man is in a serious condition in hospital following a double shooting in South London.
> 
> Police rushed to Rollins Street in New Cross shortly after 4am this morning (Friday, August 7).
> 
> At the scene they found a man, aged 27, with two gunshot wounds - one to his chest and another to his body.
> 
> He was treated at the scene by paramedics from London Ambulance Service before being taken to hospital, where he remains in a serious, but stable, condition.
> 
> At around 4.30am a second man attended hospital with a gunshot wound to his hand. His condition is non life-threatening.
> 
> The investigation is being led by detectives from the Met's Specialist Crime Command.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Updates as man in serious condition after South London double shooting
> 
> 
> Police were called to Rollins Street shortly after 4am this morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mylondon.news


Criminal on criminal event, therefore doesn't count by your rules.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....you morons registered your guns, then later used those lists to confiscate them........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Urm, we still have our rifles, shotguns and, yes, even pistols. Someone's not been paying attention. All that was made illegal were semi automatic pistols with barrel lengths less than 12 inches and assault weapons of all kinds. You need to try a lot harder to intimidate us with your fear mongering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No fear mongering, truth telling.   So...you have those guns and your criminals don't commit murder with them......gun control doesn't work, you just have criminals who don't want to murder each other....you also don't have people who want to walk into churches and schools to shoot people....
> 
> Yet....your immigrant drug gangs are importing more and more guns to protect their drug turf.....
> 
> And I notice you didn't address the fact that American guns keep your country safe.......showing the ingratitude of welfare state sponges...
Click to expand...

TRUTH! You can't handle the truth (sorry couldn't resist)! Thank you once again for destroying your own argument. If our criminals don't want to kill each other or anyone else then we don't need guns to defend ourselves. Gun control is quite adequate for our safety. Gun control works.


----------



## Vagabond63

Oh, American military keep America safe, and the rest of us can swivel. We are long over the delusion that we enjoy any special relationship with the US and most of us are fed up being dragged into American conflicts.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Artist and children's author shot and critically injured  in gun free Britain.....
> 
> *An artist and children’s author was the victim of a shooting in a quiet Hampshire village in which the suspect fled on a motorcycle before crashing in a police chase and dying.*
> 
> *James Nash, who is also a parish councillor, suffered critical head injuries. Police are continuing to investigate the motive for the attack.
> 
> 
> The shooting took place in the village of Upper Enham on Wednesday afternoon, where Nash, 42, and his wife, Sarah, a specialist in satellite technology with a government agency, live in a cottage.*
> 
> *The shooting suspect is believed to have left the scene on foot before jumping on to a motorcycle. The 34-year-old crashed the bike three miles away during a police chase.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artist critically wounded in Hampshire shooting as suspect dies in chase
> 
> 
> Children’s writer James Nash is shot by attacker who fled on a motorcycle, which he crashed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sad that Mr Nash was killed by some deranged neo nazi lunatic who thought he was being spied on by the government (sound familiar, there are so many in the US) but proof that gun control works as he had to make his own shotgun from scratch rather than just walk into his local gun shop or gun fair if he was in America. This is the exception that proves the rule.
Click to expand...



Except you just posted that you guys have rifles, shotguns, and pistols.......and as my posts have shown, criminals keep importing more and more guns in to defend their drug turf...so gun control doesn't work, this man is still dead....from being shot.......

How exactly did your gun control laws work if this poor guy was shot to death?

You twit...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....you morons registered your guns, then later used those lists to confiscate them........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Urm, we still have our rifles, shotguns and, yes, even pistols. Someone's not been paying attention. All that was made illegal were semi automatic pistols with barrel lengths less than 12 inches and assault weapons of all kinds. You need to try a lot harder to intimidate us with your fear mongering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No fear mongering, truth telling.   So...you have those guns and your criminals don't commit murder with them......gun control doesn't work, you just have criminals who don't want to murder each other....you also don't have people who want to walk into churches and schools to shoot people....
> 
> Yet....your immigrant drug gangs are importing more and more guns to protect their drug turf.....
> 
> And I notice you didn't address the fact that American guns keep your country safe.......showing the ingratitude of welfare state sponges...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TRUTH! You can't handle the truth (sorry couldn't resist)! Thank you once again for destroying your own argument. If our criminals don't want to kill each other or anyone else then we don't need guns to defend ourselves. Gun control is quite adequate for our safety. Gun control works.
Click to expand...


Until your criminals decide to murder innocent people in their homes or on the street..........your gun control laws are not controlling them.....so when they decide to use their illegal guns...already in their possession...you gun control laws do not stop them...once they decide to kill, they have the guns to commit murder......it is the criminals who make the law, not your government......

As America shows, and Britain...normal people owning and carrying guns do not cause gun crime or gun murder....the criminals do that.........as more Americans own and carry guns....over 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%......you can't explain that...our gun crime rate went down 75%....you can't explain that.....

This shows that access to guns isn't the problem.......how our government handles repeat felons is the problem.......

So banning guns is just dumb....especially in the face of violent felons constantly released from jail and prison to cause more crime and death...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, American military keep America safe, and the rest of us can swivel. We are long over the delusion that we enjoy any special relationship with the US and most of us are fed up being dragged into American conflicts.




And so your welfare state ends......


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Artist and children's author shot and critically injured  in gun free Britain.....
> 
> *An artist and children’s author was the victim of a shooting in a quiet Hampshire village in which the suspect fled on a motorcycle before crashing in a police chase and dying.*
> 
> *James Nash, who is also a parish councillor, suffered critical head injuries. Police are continuing to investigate the motive for the attack.
> 
> 
> The shooting took place in the village of Upper Enham on Wednesday afternoon, where Nash, 42, and his wife, Sarah, a specialist in satellite technology with a government agency, live in a cottage.*
> 
> *The shooting suspect is believed to have left the scene on foot before jumping on to a motorcycle. The 34-year-old crashed the bike three miles away during a police chase.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artist critically wounded in Hampshire shooting as suspect dies in chase
> 
> 
> Children’s writer James Nash is shot by attacker who fled on a motorcycle, which he crashed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sad that Mr Nash was killed by some deranged neo nazi lunatic who thought he was being spied on by the government (sound familiar, there are so many in the US) but proof that gun control works as he had to make his own shotgun from scratch rather than just walk into his local gun shop or gun fair if he was in America. This is the exception that proves the rule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Except you just posted that you guys have rifles, shotguns, and pistols.......and as my posts have shown, criminals keep importing more and more guns in to defend their drug turf...so gun control doesn't work, this man is still dead....from being shot.......
> 
> How exactly did your gun control laws work if this poor guy was shot to death?
> 
> You twit...
Click to expand...

Oh please, name me one law that has never been broken. Gun control is not about making shootings impossible, its about making society as safe as possible from being shot


2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....you morons registered your guns, then later used those lists to confiscate them........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Urm, we still have our rifles, shotguns and, yes, even pistols. Someone's not been paying attention. All that was made illegal were semi automatic pistols with barrel lengths less than 12 inches and assault weapons of all kinds. You need to try a lot harder to intimidate us with your fear mongering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No fear mongering, truth telling.   So...you have those guns and your criminals don't commit murder with them......gun control doesn't work, you just have criminals who don't want to murder each other....you also don't have people who want to walk into churches and schools to shoot people....
> 
> Yet....your immigrant drug gangs are importing more and more guns to protect their drug turf.....
> 
> And I notice you didn't address the fact that American guns keep your country safe.......showing the ingratitude of welfare state sponges...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TRUTH! You can't handle the truth (sorry couldn't resist)! Thank you once again for destroying your own argument. If our criminals don't want to kill each other or anyone else then we don't need guns to defend ourselves. Gun control is quite adequate for our safety. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Until your criminals decide to murder innocent people in their homes or on the street..........your gun control laws are not controlling them.....so when they decide to use their illegal guns...already in their possession...you gun control laws do not stop them...once they decide to kill, they have the guns to commit murder......it is the criminals who make the law, not your government......
> 
> As America shows, and Britain...normal people owning and carrying guns do not cause gun crime or gun murder....the criminals do that.........as more Americans own and carry guns....over 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%......you can't explain that...our gun crime rate went down 75%....you can't explain that.....
> 
> This shows that access to guns isn't the problem.......how our government handles repeat felons is the problem.......
> 
> So banning guns is just dumb....especially in the face of violent felons constantly released from jail and prison to cause more crime and death...
Click to expand...

One can always tell when 2aguy's argument has fallen apart, he starts to vent childish personal insults and reverts to his favourite cut and paste BS mantra about 18 million Americans being solely responsible for reducing their gun murder rate. If that were the case, those 18 million should all get the medal of freedom for their efforts. Wonder why that never happened?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Artist and children's author shot and critically injured  in gun free Britain.....
> 
> *An artist and children’s author was the victim of a shooting in a quiet Hampshire village in which the suspect fled on a motorcycle before crashing in a police chase and dying.*
> 
> *James Nash, who is also a parish councillor, suffered critical head injuries. Police are continuing to investigate the motive for the attack.
> 
> 
> The shooting took place in the village of Upper Enham on Wednesday afternoon, where Nash, 42, and his wife, Sarah, a specialist in satellite technology with a government agency, live in a cottage.*
> 
> *The shooting suspect is believed to have left the scene on foot before jumping on to a motorcycle. The 34-year-old crashed the bike three miles away during a police chase.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artist critically wounded in Hampshire shooting as suspect dies in chase
> 
> 
> Children’s writer James Nash is shot by attacker who fled on a motorcycle, which he crashed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sad that Mr Nash was killed by some deranged neo nazi lunatic who thought he was being spied on by the government (sound familiar, there are so many in the US) but proof that gun control works as he had to make his own shotgun from scratch rather than just walk into his local gun shop or gun fair if he was in America. This is the exception that proves the rule.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Except you just posted that you guys have rifles, shotguns, and pistols.......and as my posts have shown, criminals keep importing more and more guns in to defend their drug turf...so gun control doesn't work, this man is still dead....from being shot.......
> 
> How exactly did your gun control laws work if this poor guy was shot to death?
> 
> You twit...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh please, name me one law that has never been broken. Gun control is not about making shootings impossible, its about making society as safe as possible from being shot
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot while sitting in a car......in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Sebastopol Road in Edmonton at around 9pm on Wednesday after gunshots were reported.*
> 
> *Mr George was found with gunshot injuries. Paramedics battled to save him but he was pronounced dead at the scene.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot dead in 'callous' north London attack named
> 
> 
> A 26-year-old man who was "callously" shot dead in north London has been named by police as Christopher George.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, this proves gun control works, meanwhile in gun nut America, people can't even celebrate their Independence Day without 160 gun deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't normal Americans......those are criminals in democrat party controlled cities, who the democrat party keeps letting out of prison, over and over again...but don't worry....you guys have the same morons in your country and they are working to release your most violent criminals too....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whatever makes you think these were normal Brits,? If you give your criminals a pass, then you should stop posting these British criminal on criminal shootings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give our criminals a pass....they aren't normal Americans, they are criminals with long histories of crime and violence, confined primarily to democrat party controlled cities....who are allowed to shoot people because of the democrat party policies that release them from jail and prison over and over again no matter how many times they are caught with illegal guns and committing violent crimes against innocent people.
> 
> The focus needs to be on keeping them in prison, not taking guns away from people who don't use those guns for crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Normal Americans don't own guns. Your 300 million guns are owned by less than 100 million Americans. 30%. How many of those gun owners were "normal" until they turned those guns onto innocent people or their own families, or even themselves?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again.......American gun owners have stopped telling anonymous voices on the phone whether or not they own guns...at least the smart ones have......and ....
> 
> UPDATED: Correcting Gun Control false claims about "America’s unique gun violence problem" and "How to Reduce Shootings" - Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> *“32% of households have guns”*
> *In another example of bias, the Times claims that only 32% of American households own guns.  That number comes from the General Social Survey (GSS), but it is an outlier.  A March 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal estimates that 47% of households own guns, with another 3% declining to answer.  A Monmouth University Poll on March 2-5, 2018 asked: “Do you or anyone in your household own a gun, rifle, or pistol?”  With 46% saying “yes” and another 7% unsure or refusing to answer, it is quite plausible that half of all households own guns.
> ===========
> Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
> 
> Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.
> 
> Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.
> 
> The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.
> 
> These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.
> 
> A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.
> 
> 
> There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.
> 
> The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.
> 
> ---------------*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crime prevention research centre, a pro gun group and Faux News, meh. Another cut and paste full of BS. But nevertheless it makes my case.  The only way to know for sure what the correct numbers are is gun control and the registration of every gun to a particular individual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....you morons registered your guns, then later used those lists to confiscate them........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Urm, we still have our rifles, shotguns and, yes, even pistols. Someone's not been paying attention. All that was made illegal were semi automatic pistols with barrel lengths less than 12 inches and assault weapons of all kinds. You need to try a lot harder to intimidate us with your fear mongering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No fear mongering, truth telling.   So...you have those guns and your criminals don't commit murder with them......gun control doesn't work, you just have criminals who don't want to murder each other....you also don't have people who want to walk into churches and schools to shoot people....
> 
> Yet....your immigrant drug gangs are importing more and more guns to protect their drug turf.....
> 
> And I notice you didn't address the fact that American guns keep your country safe.......showing the ingratitude of welfare state sponges...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TRUTH! You can't handle the truth (sorry couldn't resist)! Thank you once again for destroying your own argument. If our criminals don't want to kill each other or anyone else then we don't need guns to defend ourselves. Gun control is quite adequate for our safety. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Until your criminals decide to murder innocent people in their homes or on the street..........your gun control laws are not controlling them.....so when they decide to use their illegal guns...already in their possession...you gun control laws do not stop them...once they decide to kill, they have the guns to commit murder......it is the criminals who make the law, not your government......
> 
> As America shows, and Britain...normal people owning and carrying guns do not cause gun crime or gun murder....the criminals do that.........as more Americans own and carry guns....over 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%......you can't explain that...our gun crime rate went down 75%....you can't explain that.....
> 
> This shows that access to guns isn't the problem.......how our government handles repeat felons is the problem.......
> 
> So banning guns is just dumb....especially in the face of violent felons constantly released from jail and prison to cause more crime and death...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One can always tell when 2aguy's argument has fallen apart, he starts to vent childish personal insults and reverts to his favourite cut and paste BS mantra about 18 million Americans being solely responsible for reducing their gun murder rate. If that were the case, those 18 million should all get the medal of freedom for their efforts. Wonder why that never happened?
Click to expand...



And you lie, again....I have explained exactly what that 18.6 million Americans represent, and it isn't lowering the crime rate....though they do help, as actual research shows.

As you know and pretend not to know, as you have been shown over and over again....

The 18.6 million Americans who now carry guns for self defense is up from 4.7 million Americans carrying guns in the 1990s......

Over that 27 year period...as we increased the number of people who carry guns from 4.7 million to over 18.6 million today...

Our gun murder rate dropped......it did not increase........so that means your theory is wrong.

Our gun crime rate dropped........it did not increase....so that means your theory is wrong....

When you say that more guns will cause more gun crime and more gun murder....and over 27 years later the exact opposite happened.....that means you were wrong......

Do you understand that?

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*


----------



## 2aguy

Man shot in gun free Britain...

*A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
*
Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.
*
*Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*









						Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
					

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk


Meanwhile in "Elyria".









						5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
					

The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.




					www.news5cleveland.com
				




It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
Click to expand...



Yep.....family ended by a family member or drug crime, we will find out which one it was......

You would have to ask the other 1.2 million gun owners who use their guns each year to stop rape, robbery and murder with their legal guns what they think about your post........

Could you let us know why British gun control laws didn't stop this family being murdered......it would help us understand the failure of British gun control laws...

*A DAD who shot his wife and two young daughters at their Sussex home was a "bully" and a “nasty piece of work”, neighbours have said.

Robert Needham, 42, is alleged to have murdered partner Kelly Fitzgibbons, 40, and their children Ava, five, and three-year-old Lexi after suffering from cash fears linked to the coronavirus outbreak.
-------
The builder is believed to have shot his children in their beds and then killed the family's dog before turning the weapon on himself in the upstairs bedroom.

Police have not commented on how they all died but were not looking for anyone else in connection with the deaths.*









						Dad 'shot partner, two kids, and himself in murder-suicide due to cash fears'
					

A DAD who shot his wife and two young daughters at their Sussex home was a “bully” and a “nasty piece of work”, neighbours have said. Robert Needham, 42, is alleged to have murdered par…




					www.thesun.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
Click to expand...


It would also help us understand how British gun control laws failed to stop the murdering of this family...

*A millionaire businessman facing financial ruin unlawfully killed his wife and teenage daughter by shooting them in the head before taking his own life, a coroner ruled yesterday.*

*The inquest into their deaths was shown grainy CCTV footage of Christopher Foster walking around his sprawling £1.2m Shropshire mansion at night last August. At one stage he is seen carrying the bodies of his dead dogs and heavy buckets of kerosene that he used to set the home ablaze.*









						Millionaire facing ruin shot wife and daughter and then killed himself
					

Inquest shown grainy CCTV footage of Christopher Foster walking around his £1.2m mansion at night last August




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
Click to expand...



Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

*In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
*
"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.
*


> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*


*The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*









						What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
					

In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
Click to expand...

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
Click to expand...

I think you need to look at the stats to see that gun control works. Your death rates obsene, ours not so much.


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
Click to expand...



The statistics prove guns save lives.....you are wrong.

The Centers for Disease Control research showed that Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder....

We had 10,265 gun murders in the U.S. in 2018...according to our FBI...

1.2 million.....is larger than 10,265.

Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....

And how many actual lives are saved each year in the U.S. with legal guns in the hands of normal people?

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


*that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved**—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.



*
*
==============
Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
--------

It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .

In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
--------------

How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.

According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.

So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you need to look at the stats to see that gun control works. Your death rates obsene, ours not so much.
Click to expand...



And those stats have nothing to do with guns owned and carried by legal gun owners...that is what you don't understand....

Since your country is currently being flooded with illegal guns, you will understand this as time goes by....


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
Click to expand...



No, there are not 1,000 accidental gun deaths...you pulled that number out of thin air.....in fact....as More Americans own and carry guns our accidental gun death rate went down, not up....

How do you explain that?

Actual statistics from our Centers For Disease Control...in a country of over 320 million people and over 600 million guns in private hands.......

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2018....458
2017....486
2016   495
2015...489http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 .....  824


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
Click to expand...

I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point. 
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Click to expand...



I know guns make us safer..... as actual truth, facts and reality show......they do so on an individual level, and they do so on a much larger level...just ask the 12 million men, women and children who you Europeans murdered in the 1930s and 40s after you disarmed your populations....they might see things differently than you guys who sit there protected by American guns.......


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

Tommy Tainant said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Click to expand...

Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The statistics prove guns save lives.....you are wrong.
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control research showed that Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder....
> 
> We had 10,265 gun murders in the U.S. in 2018...according to our FBI...
> 
> 1.2 million.....is larger than 10,265.
> 
> Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....
> 
> And how many actual lives are saved each year in the U.S. with legal guns in the hands of normal people?
> 
> Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct
> 
> 
> *that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved**—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *==============
> Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> --------
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> --------------
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*
Click to expand...


*Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S.... *

US suicide rates are amongst the highest in the world - driven by guns.


*








						Suicide rates (per 100 000 population)
					






					www.who.int
				



*
Russia is worse if that is any comfort.


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
Click to expand...

My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
Click to expand...

he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century. 
The way it goes is this.
Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
Then its just the criminals
Then its safer than the UK.
And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.

He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The statistics prove guns save lives.....you are wrong.
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control research showed that Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder....
> 
> We had 10,265 gun murders in the U.S. in 2018...according to our FBI...
> 
> 1.2 million.....is larger than 10,265.
> 
> Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....
> 
> And how many actual lives are saved each year in the U.S. with legal guns in the hands of normal people?
> 
> Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct
> 
> 
> *that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved**—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *==============
> Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> --------
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> --------------
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S.... *
> 
> US suicide rates are amongst the highest in the world - driven by guns.
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suicide rates (per 100 000 population)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.who.int
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Russia is worse if that is any comfort.
Click to expand...



Uh.....no....you don't know what you are talking about.......

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide

*There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world. 

 According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.:  Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. 

By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people. *


*Suicide is a mental health issue.  If guns are not available other means are used. 


 Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%). 


Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article.  The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited.  Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows:  Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).
Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)*

*Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics.  According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent.  Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S. *


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
Click to expand...



And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The statistics prove guns save lives.....you are wrong.
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control research showed that Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder....
> 
> We had 10,265 gun murders in the U.S. in 2018...according to our FBI...
> 
> 1.2 million.....is larger than 10,265.
> 
> Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....
> 
> And how many actual lives are saved each year in the U.S. with legal guns in the hands of normal people?
> 
> Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct
> 
> 
> *that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved**—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *==============
> Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> --------
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> --------------
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S.... *
> 
> US suicide rates are amongst the highest in the world - driven by guns.
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suicide rates (per 100 000 population)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.who.int
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Russia is worse if that is any comfort.
Click to expand...



Countries with higher suicide rates than the U.S.........



			https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/countries-with-the-highest-suicide-rates?slide=9
		


South Korea...extreme gun control...

How is it that Finland, Japan, Hungary, Belgium, all have higher suicide rates than the U.S....?

Care to explain that?









						Health status - Suicide rates - OECD Data
					

Find, compare and share OECD data by indicator.




					data.oecd.org


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

2aguy said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
Click to expand...

Jesus wept!


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
Click to expand...



Can you then explain this to us....?

How is it that as more Americans own and carry guns...our gun crime rate went down 75%...it didn't go up, it went down.

How is it that as more Americans own and carry guns.....our gun murder rate went down 49%....it didn't go up, it went down.

How do you explain that?

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...*


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*



The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....

*More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.*

Actual Result:

*In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72% 

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....*

In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.



Whatever the crime rate does......as more Americans owned more guns the crime rate did not go up....so again...



Britain...
*More Guns = More Gun Crime

Britain had access to guns before they banned them.....they had low gun crime, low gun murder.

They banned guns, the gun murder rate spiked for 10 years then returned to the same level...

Your Theory again....

More guns = More Gun Crime

Guns Banned creates no change?   That means banning guns for law abiding gun owners had no effect on gun crime.

When your theory states one thing, and you implement your theory, and nothing changes....in science, that means your theory is wrong...
-------
*

Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

*When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.*
*=============

Bolsonaro's  Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously

In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:*


> *Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime.*


*Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.

After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
-------

Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:*


> *César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office.*


*The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:*


> *Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday.*


*When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.*


----------



## hadit

Vagabond63 said:


> Captain Caveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject
> "Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
Click to expand...

And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus wept!
Click to expand...



Yes....after you guys disarmed your peoples across Europe, you allowed the national socialists to murder 12 million men, women and children......then, when the United States had to come in and save you.......with guns.......you now sit under the umbrella of our protection, with our guns....and complain about the U.S.......

Bad manners on your part....


----------



## 2aguy

hadit said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Captain Caveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject
> "Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
Click to expand...



Thank you.


----------



## hadit

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem you guys have is you seem to think that your gun crime rates are always going to be static
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who says we do? Gun crime rates fluctuate over time, but overall, gun crime in the UK has been declining for decades as trends go. Drug gangs use guns against each other, not their potential "customers"; either to deter or eliminate their rivals. A cynic might argue, let them get on with it, they might kill each other off and solve the problem that way.
Click to expand...

A large portion of American gun crime is gang related as well, and most of it is concentrated in large urban areas. There is no need, for example, to prevent people living in the country from owning guns, yet that is what the gun controllers want to do.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century.
> The way it goes is this.
> Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
> Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
> Then its just the criminals
> Then its safer than the UK.
> And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.
> 
> He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.
Click to expand...


*dont waste any time trying to reason with him.

When you actually try to use reason in our discussions it will be a great day......you simply deny, and emote, and think that makes your points....it doesn't....*

*You still refuse to answer the most basic question.....

Why did the gun murder rate in the U.S. drop 49%, and the gun crime rate drop 75%, and the violent crime rate drop 72% after more Americans went out, bought and now carry guns?

This is over a 27 year period as the population grew and the number of guns grew........you never answer this question because you can't answer it.....you claim more guns = more gun crime, and this actual real world experience shows you are wrong....*


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century.
> The way it goes is this.
> Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
> Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
> Then its just the criminals
> Then its safer than the UK.
> And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.
> 
> He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *dont waste any time trying to reason with him.
> 
> When you actually try to use reason in our discussions it will be a great day......you simply deny, and emote, and think that makes your points....it doesn't....*
> 
> *You still refuse to answer the most basic question.....
> 
> Why did the gun murder rate in the U.S. drop 49%, and the gun crime rate drop 75%, and the violent crime rate drop 72% after more Americans went out, bought and now carry guns?
> 
> This is over a 27 year period as the population grew and the number of guns grew........you never answer this question because you can't answer it.....you claim more guns = more gun crime, and this actual real world experience shows you are wrong....*
Click to expand...

I already answered that it is because they are running out of people who have chosen to kill each other successfully!


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century.
> The way it goes is this.
> Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
> Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
> Then its just the criminals
> Then its safer than the UK.
> And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.
> 
> He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *dont waste any time trying to reason with him.
> 
> When you actually try to use reason in our discussions it will be a great day......you simply deny, and emote, and think that makes your points....it doesn't....*
> 
> *You still refuse to answer the most basic question.....
> 
> Why did the gun murder rate in the U.S. drop 49%, and the gun crime rate drop 75%, and the violent crime rate drop 72% after more Americans went out, bought and now carry guns?
> 
> This is over a 27 year period as the population grew and the number of guns grew........you never answer this question because you can't answer it.....you claim more guns = more gun crime, and this actual real world experience shows you are wrong....*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I already answered that it is because they are running out of people who have chosen to kill each other successfully!
Click to expand...



Wow...if that is all you have, this is going to be boring.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
Click to expand...

If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
Click to expand...


The CDC research mirrored the research at the Department of Justice during the same time period....then you would have to explain away the other 15 studies conducted by both private and government researchers into gun self defense that also found high rates of gun self defense...you can't dismiss all of that data....

It wasn't John Lott, you doofus, it was Gary Kleck who found the data that the CDC was hiding because it didn't conform to the clinton administrations need to ban guns.....

Then, in 2013, obama ordered the Centers For Disease Control to review all research on self defense with a gun.....all of it, and they spent 10 million dollars to do it...they came away with between 500,000- 3 milliion defensive gun uses each year.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
Click to expand...



What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...

What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



*Abstract*
*In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
--------


The annual number of DGUs implied by the 20 national
surveys summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million. 


Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys. 

The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
----------
Conclusions
*
* In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS. *

*The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.*

* CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.*

* Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection. *

*If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.*

=========


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The CDC research mirrored the research at the Department of Justice during the same time period....then you would have to explain away the other 15 studies conducted by both private and government researchers into gun self defense that also found high rates of gun self defense...you can't dismiss all of that data....
> 
> It wasn't John Lott, you doofus, it was Gary Kleck who found the data that the CDC was hiding because it didn't conform to the clinton administrations need to ban guns.....
> 
> Then, in 2013, obama ordered the Centers For Disease Control to review all research on self defense with a gun.....all of it, and they spent 10 million dollars to do it...they came away with between 500,000- 3 milliion defensive gun uses each year.....
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
> 
> GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
> 
> GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
> 
> Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)
> 
> CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)
> 
> Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
> 
> --------------------
> 
> 
> Bordua...1977...1,414,544
> 
> DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)
> 
> Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)
> 
> DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)
> 
> Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
> 
> (Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])
> 
> Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Ohio...1982...771,043
> 
> Gallup...1991...777,152
> 
> Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)
> 
> Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
Click to expand...

And yet you struggle  to find any evidence of these acts to back up "studies" that are 50 years old in some cases. Joker.


----------



## Vagabond63

hadit said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Captain Caveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject
> "Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course rse, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
Click to expand...

Except when they have been substantively refuted, he just cuts and pastes his standard drivel for the next few posts until the refutation is lost in the noise. Ive done this at least three times, and I suspect others have, time and again. He doesn't care that his points are worthless, to him it's all about pushing his NRA talking points. For most of us now, it's easier to ignore his drivel.


----------



## Vagabond63

Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...
> 
> What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN
> 
> 
> 
> *Abstract*
> *In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
> --------
> 
> 
> The annual number of DGUs implied by the 20 national
> surveys summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.
> 
> 
> Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.
> 
> The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
> ----------
> Conclusions*
> 
> * In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS. *
> 
> *The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.*
> 
> * CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.*
> 
> * Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection. *
> 
> *If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.*
> 
> =========
Click to expand...

A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
Keep your arguments to the point.
Keep your arguments concise and factual.
Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.

Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Captain Caveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject
> "Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course rse, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except when they have been substantively refuted, he just cuts and pastes his standard drivel for the next few posts until the refutation is lost in the noise. Ive done this at least three times, and I suspect others have, time and again. He doesn't care that his points are worthless, to him it's all about pushing his NRA talking points. For most of us now, it's easier to ignore his drivel.
Click to expand...



Where in anything I post do you see "NRA?"  You guys can't challenge anything I post with facts, so you start throwing out "NRA...NRA....."


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.




Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...
> 
> What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN
> 
> 
> 
> *Abstract*
> *In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
> --------
> 
> 
> The annual number of DGUs implied by the 20 national
> surveys summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.
> 
> 
> Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.
> 
> The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
> ----------
> Conclusions*
> 
> * In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS. *
> 
> *The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.*
> 
> * CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.*
> 
> * Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection. *
> 
> *If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.*
> 
> =========
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
> Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
> Keep your arguments to the point.
> Keep your arguments concise and factual.
> Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.
> 
> Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
> rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.
Click to expand...



A few tips for you...how about you actually challenge the facts I present.......and a link to 20 actual studies conducted by actual  researchers both from private research groups and Federal government agencies are not unsubstantiated infor.......and Pew research group looking at actual crime statistics over the last 27 years is not unsubstantiated info.

And maybe if you weren't obsessed with "guns," and paid actual attention to what caused this crime, you would know what you are talking about.

It was a gang shooting at a party......and it was buried by the press here in the U.S. because the shooters were black gang members.  The shooters will have been arrested over and over again for various serious felonies, most likely illegal gun possession, then they will have been released over and over again by democrat party prosecutors for even the most violent crimes......

That is why the shooting happened, not because John and Jane citizen own and carry guns for self defense....

And British gun control laws don't stop shootings like this, so you shouldn't act smug..........the only thing protecting you right now is your criminals don't choose to do this......as often....yet.....

Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester

*Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
*
Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.
*
*Britain will understand this as time goes on.......your gangs are learning that British laws and British police are nothing to be feared........*


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...
> 
> What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN
> 
> 
> 
> *Abstract*
> *In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
> --------
> 
> 
> The annual number of DGUs implied by the 20 national
> surveys summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.
> 
> 
> Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.
> 
> The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
> ----------
> Conclusions*
> 
> * In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS. *
> 
> *The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.*
> 
> * CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.*
> 
> * Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection. *
> 
> *If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.*
> 
> =========
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
> Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
> Keep your arguments to the point.
> Keep your arguments concise and factual.
> Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.
> 
> Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
> rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> A few tips for you...how about you actually challenge the facts I present.......and a link to 20 actual studies conducted by actual  researchers both from private research groups and Federal government agencies are not unsubstantiated infor.......and Pew research group looking at actual crime statistics over the last 27 years is not unsubstantiated info.
> 
> And maybe if you weren't obsessed with "guns," and paid actual attention to what caused this crime, you would know what you are talking about.
> 
> It was a gang shooting at a party......and it was buried by the press here in the U.S. because the shooters were black gang members.  The shooters will have been arrested over and over again for various serious felonies, most likely illegal gun possession, then they will have been released over and over again by democrat party prosecutors for even the most violent crimes......
> 
> That is why the shooting happened, not because John and Jane citizen own and carry guns for self defense....
> 
> And British gun control laws don't stop shootings like this, so you shouldn't act smug..........the only thing protecting you right now is your criminals don't choose to do this......as often....yet.....
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> *Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> *Britain will understand this as time goes on.......your gangs are learning that British laws and British police are nothing to be feared........*
Click to expand...

Once again you prove my point, the Manchester shooting was with a shotgun. Shotguns are legal firearms in this country. Who says the gun wasn't acquired legally? The shooter may well have been a law abiding citizen, until they fired those rounds. 
Oh, you really have no idea about criminal gangs in the UK, to be expected.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Click to expand...

Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot in gun free Britain...
> 
> *A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.*
> 
> *Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.*
> 
> *Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man shot and another stabbed near Hyde Park on weekend of bloodshed
> 
> 
> A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile in "Elyria".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5 family members found dead inside Elyria home on Willowpark Road, police say
> 
> 
> The Elyria Police Department is investigating after five family members were found dead inside a home Wednesday morning, according to a release from police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news5cleveland.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?
> 
> From 2012....
> 
> *In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.*
> 
> *"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."
> 
> Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.
> 
> For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What drives a man to kill himself and his family?
> 
> 
> In the last two months four fathers have killed their families and then themselves - but what leads men to take such action and is enough being done to understand the causes, asks File on 4 reporter Jane Deith.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
> Ban guns and those lives would be saved.
> 
> Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.
> 
> Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going  to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.
> 
> Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
> Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
> This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
> Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
> and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on  killing each other cos they are succeeding.
> 
> Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.
> 
> USA 12.21
> UK 0.23
> 
> France 2.83
> Canada 2.00
> Sweden 1.6
> Italy 1.31
> Germany 1.17
> Australia 0.9
> Japan 0.6
> Spain 0.31
> 
> With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.
> 
> Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.
> 
> Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...
> 
> According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...
> 
> According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....
> 
> According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....
> 
> And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger?
> 
> 176,000 vs 10,265?
> 
> You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...
> 
> What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN
> 
> 
> 
> *Abstract*
> *In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
> --------
> 
> 
> The annual number of DGUs implied by the 20 national
> surveys summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.
> 
> 
> Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.
> 
> The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
> ----------
> Conclusions*
> 
> * In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS. *
> 
> *The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.*
> 
> * CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.*
> 
> * Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection. *
> 
> *If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.*
> 
> =========
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
> Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
> Keep your arguments to the point.
> Keep your arguments concise and factual.
> Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.
> 
> Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
> rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> A few tips for you...how about you actually challenge the facts I present.......and a link to 20 actual studies conducted by actual  researchers both from private research groups and Federal government agencies are not unsubstantiated infor.......and Pew research group looking at actual crime statistics over the last 27 years is not unsubstantiated info.
> 
> And maybe if you weren't obsessed with "guns," and paid actual attention to what caused this crime, you would know what you are talking about.
> 
> It was a gang shooting at a party......and it was buried by the press here in the U.S. because the shooters were black gang members.  The shooters will have been arrested over and over again for various serious felonies, most likely illegal gun possession, then they will have been released over and over again by democrat party prosecutors for even the most violent crimes......
> 
> That is why the shooting happened, not because John and Jane citizen own and carry guns for self defense....
> 
> And British gun control laws don't stop shootings like this, so you shouldn't act smug..........the only thing protecting you right now is your criminals don't choose to do this......as often....yet.....
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> *Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> *Britain will understand this as time goes on.......your gangs are learning that British laws and British police are nothing to be feared........*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again you prove my point, the Manchester shooting was with a shotgun. Shotguns are legal firearms in this country. Who says the gun wasn't acquired legally? The shooter may well have been a law abiding citizen, until they fired those rounds.
> Oh, you really have no idea about criminal gangs in the UK, to be expected.
Click to expand...



Yes......they have guns in Britain, and they could use them to shoot more people...they don't...criminals in Britain have all the guns they want or need, they just choose not to shoot each other as often as American criminals do....it has nothing to do with normal people who own guns for self defense.....

Yes....the lie about normal people just deciding to shoot other people...you have been shown the research but you refuse to understand or accept it.


And the police state that hand guns are being brought into Britain at record levels....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
Click to expand...



They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....

We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......


----------



## bluzman61

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Captain Caveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject
> "Captain Kirk" wannabe  here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course rse, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except when they have been substantively refuted, he just cuts and pastes his standard drivel for the next few posts until the refutation is lost in the noise. Ive done this at least three times, and I suspect others have, time and again. He doesn't care that his points are worthless, to him it's all about pushing his NRA talking points. For most of us now, it's easier to ignore his drivel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Where in anything I post do you see "NRA?"  You guys can't challenge anything I post with facts, so you start throwing out "NRA...NRA....."
Click to expand...

Exactly.


----------



## bluzman61

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....
> 
> We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
Click to expand...

Yep.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....
> 
> We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
Click to expand...

No they don't. That's the point. These" "figures" are merely the opinions of paranoid individuals who think their gun makes them safer. Not fact.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....
> 
> We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they don't. That's the point. These" "figures" are merely the opinions of paranoid individuals who think their gun makes them safer. Not fact.
Click to expand...



Fact, as more American own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%......you tell us it would go up, not down.   Our gun crime rate went down 75%....you tell us it would go up, not down.

You are wrong on every single aspect of the gun debate.


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## 2aguy

20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...

A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.

The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.

A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.









						Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
					

A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.




					www.standard.co.uk


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....
> 
> We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they don't. That's the point. These" "figures" are merely the opinions of paranoid individuals who think their gun makes them safer. Not fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Fact, as more American own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%......you tell us it would go up, not down.   Our gun crime rate went down 75%....you tell us it would go up, not down.
> 
> You are wrong on every single aspect of the gun debate.
Click to expand...

Once again in your deranged fantasy bubble world you  claim I have said something I haven't. I have made my position on gun control very clear. As an ex gun owner, I see the need for rigorous control over who gets to own guns for sport or target practice. For me giving out guns like confetti to anyone is the height of stupidity. Are we clear now?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
Click to expand...

No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.
Click to expand...



Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.
Click to expand...

All you have is guesswork and extrapolation based on telephone interviews which may be made up, there's no way of telling. There are no facts presented in your so called "research". There is as much "research" out there that contradicts and debunks your "professionals" in any event. Without proper records, without gun control, all you will ever have is guesswork. Unfortunately you appear to be too much of a fanatic to grasp that, because to do so would burst your gun fantasy bubble.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk


Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All you have is guesswork and extrapolation based on telephone interviews which may be made up, there's no way of telling. There are no facts presented in your so called "research". There is as much "research" out there that contradicts and debunks your "professionals" in any event. Without proper records, without gun control, all you will ever have is guesswork. Unfortunately you appear to be too much of a fanatic to grasp that, because to do so would burst your gun fantasy bubble.
Click to expand...



Again...these are trained researchers from both private and government research groups....they used tried and true research techniques to look at the issue......you can't deny that, so you pretend their research doesn't count......

We know what you want with "proper records," which Germany, France, Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other countries use to ban and confiscate guns........so no, we had gun crime go down as more Americans own and carry guns, nothing you believe about guns and gun ownership is even remotely true or accurate......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
Click to expand...



No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
Click to expand...

*sigh* Name me one law in the history of the world that has never been broken? The purpose of gun control is to make society as safe as possible for the majority. Given the huge discrepancies between our gun crime figures and those in the US. Gun control works.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
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> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All you have is guesswork and extrapolation based on telephone interviews which may be made up, there's no way of telling. There are no facts presented in your so called "research". There is as much "research" out there that contradicts and debunks your "professionals" in any event. Without proper records, without gun control, all you will ever have is guesswork. Unfortunately you appear to be too much of a fanatic to grasp that, because to do so would burst your gun fantasy bubble.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again...these are trained researchers from both private and government research groups....they used tried and true research techniques to look at the issue......you can't deny that, so you pretend their research doesn't count......
> 
> We know what you want with "proper records," which Germany, France, Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other countries use to ban and confiscate guns........so no, we had gun crime go down as more Americans own and carry guns, nothing you believe about guns and gun ownership is even remotely true or accurate......
Click to expand...

Your "trained researchers" merely used data modelling and manipulation techniques to advocate for their particular agenda. They stick an arrow in a three and paint a target around it, then shout bullseye! Your blind faith in your "researchers" is touching, but merely demonstrates your gullibility.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh* Name me one law in the history of the world that has never been broken? The purpose of gun control is to make society as safe as possible for the majority. Given the huge discrepancies between our gun crime figures and those in the US. Gun control works.
Click to expand...


The discrepancies have nothing to do with access to guns...since as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%.  So you are completely wrong on that.   You believe that past crime rates in Britain...before you imported violent 3rd world males into your country, who don't care about British traditions, culture and police, will remain that way, and that the low violence levels in Britain created by those traditions, culture and police are due to gun control...again, you are wrong.

Criminals in your country are importing more and more guns and they are becoming less and less concerned with the consequences for shooting each other........


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All you have is guesswork and extrapolation based on telephone interviews which may be made up, there's no way of telling. There are no facts presented in your so called "research". There is as much "research" out there that contradicts and debunks your "professionals" in any event. Without proper records, without gun control, all you will ever have is guesswork. Unfortunately you appear to be too much of a fanatic to grasp that, because to do so would burst your gun fantasy bubble.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again...these are trained researchers from both private and government research groups....they used tried and true research techniques to look at the issue......you can't deny that, so you pretend their research doesn't count......
> 
> We know what you want with "proper records," which Germany, France, Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other countries use to ban and confiscate guns........so no, we had gun crime go down as more Americans own and carry guns, nothing you believe about guns and gun ownership is even remotely true or accurate......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your "trained researchers" merely used data modelling and manipulation techniques to advocate for their particular agenda. They stick an arrow in a three and paint a target around it, then shout bullseye! Your blind faith in your "researchers" is touching, but merely demonstrates your gullibility.
Click to expand...



Wrong......the "particular agenda," of the majority of those researchers was to push gun control...in particular the Centers for Disease Control Research and the Department of Justice Research was conducted under the Clinton administration and in direct response to the work by Dr. Gary Kleck.  He was also an anti-gun researcher at the time of his research.  When the CDC and the Department of Justice......filled with anti-gun appointees by bill clinton, tried to debunk Kleck's work.....again, he was an anti-gun guy when he did it too........they found 1.1 million defensive gun uses in the CDC research and 1.5 million in the Department of Justice research......they found those numbers trying to prove your theory that gun self defense was a myth....and they found the exact opposite..

So your "Particular Agenda," point is wrong...since the "particular agenda," they were advocating for was to push gun control....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh* Name me one law in the history of the world that has never been broken? The purpose of gun control is to make society as safe as possible for the majority. Given the huge discrepancies between our gun crime figures and those in the US. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The discrepancies have nothing to do with access to guns...since as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%.  So you are completely wrong on that.   You believe that past crime rates in Britain...before you imported violent 3rd world males into your country, who don't care about British traditions, culture and police, will remain that way, and that the low violence levels in Britain created by those traditions, culture and police are due to gun control...again, you are wrong.
> 
> Criminals in your country are importing more and more guns and they are becoming less and less concerned with the consequences for shooting each other........
Click to expand...

Of course they do, if you don't have a gun, you can't shoot someone! Your decline in gun crime and murder rates were due to many socio-economic factors that I've covered before, gun ownership was never a factor. If only because without gun control you have no idea of how many people own guns in the first place! 
What third world males are you waffling on about? Most grateful n crime on the UK is perpetrated by native criminal gangs.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh* Name me one law in the history of the world that has never been broken? The purpose of gun control is to make society as safe as possible for the majority. Given the huge discrepancies between our gun crime figures and those in the US. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The discrepancies have nothing to do with access to guns...since as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%.  So you are completely wrong on that.   You believe that past crime rates in Britain...before you imported violent 3rd world males into your country, who don't care about British traditions, culture and police, will remain that way, and that the low violence levels in Britain created by those traditions, culture and police are due to gun control...again, you are wrong.
> 
> Criminals in your country are importing more and more guns and they are becoming less and less concerned with the consequences for shooting each other........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course they do, if you don't have a gun, you can't shoot someone! Your decline in gun crime and murder rates were due to many socio-economic factors that I've covered before, gun ownership was never a factor. If only because without gun control you have no idea of how many people own guns in the first place!
> What third world males are you waffling on about? Most grateful n crime on the UK is perpetrated by native criminal gangs.
Click to expand...



Again, you are playing stupid, really stupid...

Your argument is that more guns will create more gun crime.  That is your argument......

In the United States, regardless of any other factor, as more Americans own and carry guns...our gun crime rate did not go up....in fact, it went down, dramatically.....as lots and lots of Americans owned and carried their legal guns....


That is the exact opposite of what you say would happen.....your argument isn't that more guns = more gun crime with more socioeconomic factors........ your argument is the simple addition of more guns into a society will mean more gun crime...

This means that normal people who own and carry guns do not cause gun crime to increase, no matter how many normal people own and carry those guns....

That means that gun control is stupid....because it doesn't stop criminals, and only makes it harder, for people who don't use their legal guns for crime, to get a gun for no good reason.

You say more guns = more gun crime.....regardless of any other factors....

And the exact opposite happened.......

In Science, when you predict one thing is going to happen but the exact opposite happens, that means your theory is completely wrong....

We know how many guns are bought each year, we know how many were bought in the past.......and as more of them were bought and carried our gun murder rate went down 49%


-----
The drug gangs in Britain are coming under the control of foriegn immigrant gangs......

*London has become a hotbed of international criminals - from Albanian cocaine kingpins and African street gangsters to Turkish Cypriots known for robberies and contract killings.
---
And experts tell Sun Online the situation in London is only escalating - as the UK's £11 billion drugs trade and other illicit markets have become more powerful and international in recent years.*
*
"We’ve observed a rise of internationally-affiliated gangs controlling illegal trade and organised criminal activity in areas of London and across county borders surrounding London and further afield," says top London-based defence solicitor Nick Titchener.
*
*On one residential street in Walthamstow - home to the notorious Somali 'Mali Boys' gang - families have been left so terrified by bloody gang warfare they refuse to go out at night.*









						How brutal foreign gangs have carved up London fuelled by cocaine epidemic
					

TWO shameless Chilean gangsters pose in gold necklaces after jetting into Britain and ransacking celebrity chef Marcus Wareing’s £5 million London home.  Their brazenness is shocking – …




					www.thesun.co.uk


----------



## HenryBHough

It's all fake news.

There are no shootings in The UK.

You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.

So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh* Name me one law in the history of the world that has never been broken? The purpose of gun control is to make society as safe as possible for the majority. Given the huge discrepancies between our gun crime figures and those in the US. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The discrepancies have nothing to do with access to guns...since as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%.  So you are completely wrong on that.   You believe that past crime rates in Britain...before you imported violent 3rd world males into your country, who don't care about British traditions, culture and police, will remain that way, and that the low violence levels in Britain created by those traditions, culture and police are due to gun control...again, you are wrong.
> 
> Criminals in your country are importing more and more guns and they are becoming less and less concerned with the consequences for shooting each other........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course they do, if you don't have a gun, you can't shoot someone! Your decline in gun crime and murder rates were due to many socio-economic factors that I've covered before, gun ownership was never a factor. If only because without gun control you have no idea of how many people own guns in the first place!
> What third world males are you waffling on about? Most grateful n crime on the UK is perpetrated by native criminal gangs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you are playing stupid, really stupid...
> 
> Your argument is that more guns will create more gun crime.  That is your argument......
> 
> In the United States, regardless of any other factor, as more Americans own and carry guns...our gun crime rate did not go up....in fact, it went down, dramatically.....as lots and lots of Americans owned and carried their legal guns....
> 
> 
> That is the exact opposite of what you say would happen.....your argument isn't that more guns = more gun crime with more socioeconomic factors........ your argument is the simple addition of more guns into a society will mean more gun crime...
> 
> This means that normal people who own and carry guns do not cause gun crime to increase, no matter how many normal people own and carry those guns....
> 
> That means that gun control is stupid....because it doesn't stop criminals, and only makes it harder, for people who don't use their legal guns for crime, to get a gun for no good reason.
> 
> You say more guns = more gun crime.....regardless of any other factors....
> 
> And the exact opposite happened.......
> 
> In Science, when you predict one thing is going to happen but the exact opposite happens, that means your theory is completely wrong....
> 
> We know how many guns are bought each year, we know how many were bought in the past.......and as more of them were bought and carried our gun murder rate went down 49%
> 
> 
> -----
> The drug gangs in Britain are coming under the control of foriegn immigrant gangs......
> 
> *London has become a hotbed of international criminals - from Albanian cocaine kingpins and African street gangsters to Turkish Cypriots known for robberies and contract killings.
> ---
> And experts tell Sun Online the situation in London is only escalating - as the UK's £11 billion drugs trade and other illicit markets have become more powerful and international in recent years.*
> 
> *"We’ve observed a rise of internationally-affiliated gangs controlling illegal trade and organised criminal activity in areas of London and across county borders surrounding London and further afield," says top London-based defence solicitor Nick Titchener.*
> 
> *On one residential street in Walthamstow - home to the notorious Somali 'Mali Boys' gang - families have been left so terrified by bloody gang warfare they refuse to go out at night.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How brutal foreign gangs have carved up London fuelled by cocaine epidemic
> 
> 
> TWO shameless Chilean gangsters pose in gold necklaces after jetting into Britain and ransacking celebrity chef Marcus Wareing’s £5 million London home.  Their brazenness is shocking – …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thesun.co.uk
Click to expand...

Oh good grief. A classic post hoc fallacy, and another pathetic attempt to create an "argument" I have never made. Your desperation is becoming more and more evident, you're even reduced to citing the Sun newspaper, which even Wikipedia rejects as a credible source! ROFL


----------



## Parker99

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More shootings in gun free Britain...
> 
> A man is in a serious condition in hospital following a double shooting in South London.
> 
> Police rushed to Rollins Street in New Cross shortly after 4am this morning (Friday, August 7).
> 
> At the scene they found a man, aged 27, with two gunshot wounds - one to his chest and another to his body.
> 
> He was treated at the scene by paramedics from London Ambulance Service before being taken to hospital, where he remains in a serious, but stable, condition.
> 
> At around 4.30am a second man attended hospital with a gunshot wound to his hand. His condition is non life-threatening.
> 
> The investigation is being led by detectives from the Met's Specialist Crime Command.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Updates as man in serious condition after South London double shooting
> 
> 
> Police were called to Rollins Street shortly after 4am this morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mylondon.news
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Criminal on criminal event, therefore doesn't count by your rules.
Click to expand...


You did not say how many gun crimes are people getting guns of the street from the black market vs buying guns at the gun store in the UK vs the US.


----------



## Vagabond63

HenryBHough said:


> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.


Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.


----------



## Vagabond63

Parker99 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> More shootings in gun free Britain...
> 
> A man is in a serious condition in hospital following a double shooting in South London.
> 
> Police rushed to Rollins Street in New Cross shortly after 4am this morning (Friday, August 7).
> 
> At the scene they found a man, aged 27, with two gunshot wounds - one to his chest and another to his body.
> 
> He was treated at the scene by paramedics from London Ambulance Service before being taken to hospital, where he remains in a serious, but stable, condition.
> 
> At around 4.30am a second man attended hospital with a gunshot wound to his hand. His condition is non life-threatening.
> 
> The investigation is being led by detectives from the Met's Specialist Crime Command.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Updates as man in serious condition after South London double shooting
> 
> 
> Police were called to Rollins Street shortly after 4am this morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mylondon.news
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Criminal on criminal event, therefore doesn't count by your rules.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You did not say how many gun crimes are people getting guns of the street from the black market vs buying guns at the gun store in the UK vs the US.
Click to expand...

Don't understand your question, care to clarify?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
Click to expand...



The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.

Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.

And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh* Name me one law in the history of the world that has never been broken? The purpose of gun control is to make society as safe as possible for the majority. Given the huge discrepancies between our gun crime figures and those in the US. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The discrepancies have nothing to do with access to guns...since as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%.  So you are completely wrong on that.   You believe that past crime rates in Britain...before you imported violent 3rd world males into your country, who don't care about British traditions, culture and police, will remain that way, and that the low violence levels in Britain created by those traditions, culture and police are due to gun control...again, you are wrong.
> 
> Criminals in your country are importing more and more guns and they are becoming less and less concerned with the consequences for shooting each other........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course they do, if you don't have a gun, you can't shoot someone! Your decline in gun crime and murder rates were due to many socio-economic factors that I've covered before, gun ownership was never a factor. If only because without gun control you have no idea of how many people own guns in the first place!
> What third world males are you waffling on about? Most grateful n crime on the UK is perpetrated by native criminal gangs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you are playing stupid, really stupid...
> 
> Your argument is that more guns will create more gun crime.  That is your argument......
> 
> In the United States, regardless of any other factor, as more Americans own and carry guns...our gun crime rate did not go up....in fact, it went down, dramatically.....as lots and lots of Americans owned and carried their legal guns....
> 
> 
> That is the exact opposite of what you say would happen.....your argument isn't that more guns = more gun crime with more socioeconomic factors........ your argument is the simple addition of more guns into a society will mean more gun crime...
> 
> This means that normal people who own and carry guns do not cause gun crime to increase, no matter how many normal people own and carry those guns....
> 
> That means that gun control is stupid....because it doesn't stop criminals, and only makes it harder, for people who don't use their legal guns for crime, to get a gun for no good reason.
> 
> You say more guns = more gun crime.....regardless of any other factors....
> 
> And the exact opposite happened.......
> 
> In Science, when you predict one thing is going to happen but the exact opposite happens, that means your theory is completely wrong....
> 
> We know how many guns are bought each year, we know how many were bought in the past.......and as more of them were bought and carried our gun murder rate went down 49%
> 
> 
> -----
> The drug gangs in Britain are coming under the control of foriegn immigrant gangs......
> 
> *London has become a hotbed of international criminals - from Albanian cocaine kingpins and African street gangsters to Turkish Cypriots known for robberies and contract killings.
> ---
> And experts tell Sun Online the situation in London is only escalating - as the UK's £11 billion drugs trade and other illicit markets have become more powerful and international in recent years.*
> 
> *"We’ve observed a rise of internationally-affiliated gangs controlling illegal trade and organised criminal activity in areas of London and across county borders surrounding London and further afield," says top London-based defence solicitor Nick Titchener.*
> 
> *On one residential street in Walthamstow - home to the notorious Somali 'Mali Boys' gang - families have been left so terrified by bloody gang warfare they refuse to go out at night.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How brutal foreign gangs have carved up London fuelled by cocaine epidemic
> 
> 
> TWO shameless Chilean gangsters pose in gold necklaces after jetting into Britain and ransacking celebrity chef Marcus Wareing’s £5 million London home.  Their brazenness is shocking – …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thesun.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh good grief. A classic post hoc fallacy, and another pathetic attempt to create an "argument" I have never made. Your desperation is becoming more and more evident, you're even reduced to citing the Sun newspaper, which even Wikipedia rejects as a credible source! ROFL
Click to expand...



Moron...how about the vaunted BBC, you twit...

*Violent Albanian criminal groups are exerting "considerable control" over the drug trafficking market in the UK, a law enforcement report has said.*
*
The National Crime Agency (NCA) said it was increasingly concerned by what it called the Albanians' "high-profile influence within UK organised crime".
-----
Officials said the gangs were characterised by their readiness to resort to serious violence.

London is their "primary hub", the report says, but they are established across the UK.

NCA deputy director general Matthew Horne said: "It's very much a group that's small in number but big in impact.

"We have seen an emergence of violence, particularly around enforcing the drug trade, in this group."
*
*The report also said that Serbian and Turkish crime groups "dominate high volume maritime cocaine logistics", while Turkish and Pakistani groups "continue to dominate heroin trafficking to the UK".*









						Albanian gangs 'controlling' UK drug trafficking market
					

The National Crime Agency says it is increasingly concerned, in the agency's annual assessment.



					www.bbc.com
				




*The report, written by a Met assistant commissioner, also reveals that a "significant number" of the gang members arrested for gun violence are illegal immigrants.*

*The document was compiled for the MPA in the wake of growing fears over gun and knife crime. But it also spotlights a list of shocking crimes committed by refugees who have fled to Britain. No specific incidents are listed, but those recently committed include killings by Roberto Malasi, who grew up in the troubled Democratic Republic of Congo.
-----

David Green, director of the Civitas thinktank, said: "We are importing 15, 16, 17 and 18-year-olds brought up in countries with an anarchistic warlord culture in which carrying knives and guns is routine.*
*
"That is no exaggeration. We are asking for trouble if we do not confront this issue, and co-ordinate Government policy properly." He claimed "squeamishness" was preventing the Government or the police tackling the issue.

"If people come from a culture which is anarchistic, they are more likely to be violent, but the police will be frightened to target these people.
*
*"The fear is that it would be called stereotyping. Actually, it is a valid group generalisation."*





__





						Immigrants from war-torn countries 'fuelling gang crime'
					

An influx of immigrants from violent countries is contributing to gang warfare, police have warned.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
Click to expand...



Moron...

*The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.*

*The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*









						Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
					

The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
Click to expand...




2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.
> 
> A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder probe after man in 20s shot in north-west London
> 
> 
> A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *sigh* Name me one law in the history of the world that has never been broken? The purpose of gun control is to make society as safe as possible for the majority. Given the huge discrepancies between our gun crime figures and those in the US. Gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The discrepancies have nothing to do with access to guns...since as more Americans own and carry guns our gun crime rate went down 75%.....our gun murder rate went down 49%.  So you are completely wrong on that.   You believe that past crime rates in Britain...before you imported violent 3rd world males into your country, who don't care about British traditions, culture and police, will remain that way, and that the low violence levels in Britain created by those traditions, culture and police are due to gun control...again, you are wrong.
> 
> Criminals in your country are importing more and more guns and they are becoming less and less concerned with the consequences for shooting each other........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course they do, if you don't have a gun, you can't shoot someone! Your decline in gun crime and murder rates were due to many socio-economic factors that I've covered before, gun ownership was never a factor. If only because without gun control you have no idea of how many people own guns in the first place!
> What third world males are you waffling on about? Most grateful n crime on the UK is perpetrated by native criminal gangs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you are playing stupid, really stupid...
> 
> Your argument is that more guns will create more gun crime.  That is your argument......
> 
> In the United States, regardless of any other factor, as more Americans own and carry guns...our gun crime rate did not go up....in fact, it went down, dramatically.....as lots and lots of Americans owned and carried their legal guns....
> 
> 
> That is the exact opposite of what you say would happen.....your argument isn't that more guns = more gun crime with more socioeconomic factors........ your argument is the simple addition of more guns into a society will mean more gun crime...
> 
> This means that normal people who own and carry guns do not cause gun crime to increase, no matter how many normal people own and carry those guns....
> 
> That means that gun control is stupid....because it doesn't stop criminals, and only makes it harder, for people who don't use their legal guns for crime, to get a gun for no good reason.
> 
> You say more guns = more gun crime.....regardless of any other factors....
> 
> And the exact opposite happened.......
> 
> In Science, when you predict one thing is going to happen but the exact opposite happens, that means your theory is completely wrong....
> 
> We know how many guns are bought each year, we know how many were bought in the past.......and as more of them were bought and carried our gun murder rate went down 49%
> 
> 
> -----
> The drug gangs in Britain are coming under the control of foriegn immigrant gangs......
> 
> *London has become a hotbed of international criminals - from Albanian cocaine kingpins and African street gangsters to Turkish Cypriots known for robberies and contract killings.
> ---
> And experts tell Sun Online the situation in London is only escalating - as the UK's £11 billion drugs trade and other illicit markets have become more powerful and international in recent years.*
> 
> *"We’ve observed a rise of internationally-affiliated gangs controlling illegal trade and organised criminal activity in areas of London and across county borders surrounding London and further afield," says top London-based defence solicitor Nick Titchener.*
> 
> *On one residential street in Walthamstow - home to the notorious Somali 'Mali Boys' gang - families have been left so terrified by bloody gang warfare they refuse to go out at night.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How brutal foreign gangs have carved up London fuelled by cocaine epidemic
> 
> 
> TWO shameless Chilean gangsters pose in gold necklaces after jetting into Britain and ransacking celebrity chef Marcus Wareing’s £5 million London home.  Their brazenness is shocking – …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thesun.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh good grief. A classic post hoc fallacy, and another pathetic attempt to create an "argument" I have never made. Your desperation is becoming more and more evident, you're even reduced to citing the Sun newspaper, which even Wikipedia rejects as a credible source! ROFL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...how about the vaunted BBC, you twit...
> 
> *Violent Albanian criminal groups are exerting "considerable control" over the drug trafficking market in the UK, a law enforcement report has said.*
> 
> *The National Crime Agency (NCA) said it was increasingly concerned by what it called the Albanians' "high-profile influence within UK organised crime".
> -----
> Officials said the gangs were characterised by their readiness to resort to serious violence.
> 
> London is their "primary hub", the report says, but they are established across the UK.
> 
> NCA deputy director general Matthew Horne said: "It's very much a group that's small in number but big in impact.
> 
> "We have seen an emergence of violence, particularly around enforcing the drug trade, in this group."*
> 
> *The report also said that Serbian and Turkish crime groups "dominate high volume maritime cocaine logistics", while Turkish and Pakistani groups "continue to dominate heroin trafficking to the UK".*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Albanian gangs 'controlling' UK drug trafficking market
> 
> 
> The National Crime Agency says it is increasingly concerned, in the agency's annual assessment.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The report, written by a Met assistant commissioner, also reveals that a "significant number" of the gang members arrested for gun violence are illegal immigrants.
> 
> The document was compiled for the MPA in the wake of growing fears over gun and knife crime. But it also spotlights a list of shocking crimes committed by refugees who have fled to Britain. No specific incidents are listed, but those recently committed include killings by Roberto Malasi, who grew up in the troubled Democratic Republic of Congo.
> -----
> 
> David Green, director of the Civitas thinktank, said: "We are importing 15, 16, 17 and 18-year-olds brought up in countries with an anarchistic warlord culture in which carrying knives and guns is routine.*
> 
> *"That is no exaggeration. We are asking for trouble if we do not confront this issue, and co-ordinate Government policy properly." He claimed "squeamishness" was preventing the Government or the police tackling the issue.
> 
> "If people come from a culture which is anarchistic, they are more likely to be violent, but the police will be frightened to target these people.*
> 
> *"The fear is that it would be called stereotyping. Actually, it is a valid group generalisation."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immigrants from war-torn countries 'fuelling gang crime'
> 
> 
> An influx of immigrants from violent countries is contributing to gang warfare, police have warned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
Click to expand...

When you get past the media hype, you find that these Albanians form less than 1% of the criminal underworld in the UK. True, they are well organised and violent, but they are a tiny minority. Interestingly enough more Albanian asylum seekers have been rejected and deported than any other group. So while they shouldn't be ignored we need to keep a sense of proportion. Same applies to Turkish and other minority groups. Fear mongering, your strong suit, does not work over here. Our police are more than capable of handling the situation. No need to give everyone guns here. Not needed. Gun control works fine here.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
Click to expand...

 None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
Click to expand...

This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
Click to expand...



Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....

The Criminology of Firearms
*In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
*
Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
----*
Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing

*Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
*
That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.



(17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)



 Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)

Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)


*
* Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
Click to expand...



When your societal decay reaches the point where your nuts decide to commit mass public shootings, they are going to commit mass public shootings and your gun control laws will not stop them.......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
Click to expand...



You are a moron...

*When European Jews gather in synagogues to pray for the Pittsburgh congregation attacked last Saturday, many will do so under the watch of armed security contractors and community guards stationed by the entrance to prevent a copycat attempt.

It is a longstanding feature of Jewish life on the Continent.
*
*For years, and, in some cases, decades,...*









						For Europe’s Jews, Worship Comes With a Heavy Dose of Security
					

For years, and, in some cases, decades, Europe’s Jewish congregations have called on a mix of private guards, volunteers and local police to safeguard their synagogues, a stark reminder on how unsafe many of the Continent’s one million Jews feel.




					www.wsj.com
				




*he government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.*
*
At the moment, parents of children at 39 state-funded Jewish schools in England pay £1.6m towards the cost of enhanced measures like security guards.

Ministers have decided to foot the bill to ensure children and staff "feel safe" and can concentrate on studying.
*
*They say they will look at the case for similar help for other faith schools.*









						Government to pay for security guards at Jewish schools
					

The government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.



					www.bbc.com
				




*Armed officers are being deployed to protect Jewish people during religious holidays, as part of an operation led by counterterror police.*
*
Scotland Yard said it had no “intelligence about a specific threat” but was taking precautions as worshippers marked the Jewish new year, Yom Kippur and other festivals over coming weeks.
*
*Security is being heightened around synagogues and other key sites amid “reassurance” patrols that will run up until 2 October.*









						Armed police deployed in counterterror operation to protect synagogues during Jewish holidays
					

Police brace for potential increase in hate crimes during religious holidays




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
Click to expand...

And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> When your societal decay reaches the point where your nuts decide to commit mass public shootings, they are going to commit mass public shootings and your gun control laws will not stop them.......
Click to expand...

Not if they don't have the guns in the first place. You really should stop watching post apocalypse movies, they can create paranoia in some weaker minded individuals.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are a moron...
> 
> *When European Jews gather in synagogues to pray for the Pittsburgh congregation attacked last Saturday, many will do so under the watch of armed security contractors and community guards stationed by the entrance to prevent a copycat attempt.
> 
> It is a longstanding feature of Jewish life on the Continent.*
> 
> *For years, and, in some cases, decades,...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Europe’s Jews, Worship Comes With a Heavy Dose of Security
> 
> 
> For years, and, in some cases, decades, Europe’s Jewish congregations have called on a mix of private guards, volunteers and local police to safeguard their synagogues, a stark reminder on how unsafe many of the Continent’s one million Jews feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.*
> 
> *At the moment, parents of children at 39 state-funded Jewish schools in England pay £1.6m towards the cost of enhanced measures like security guards.
> 
> Ministers have decided to foot the bill to ensure children and staff "feel safe" and can concentrate on studying.*
> 
> *They say they will look at the case for similar help for other faith schools.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Government to pay for security guards at Jewish schools
> 
> 
> The government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Armed officers are being deployed to protect Jewish people during religious holidays, as part of an operation led by counterterror police.*
> 
> *Scotland Yard said it had no “intelligence about a specific threat” but was taking precautions as worshippers marked the Jewish new year, Yom Kippur and other festivals over coming weeks.*
> 
> *Security is being heightened around synagogues and other key sites amid “reassurance” patrols that will run up until 2 October.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed police deployed in counterterror operation to protect synagogues during Jewish holidays
> 
> 
> Police brace for potential increase in hate crimes during religious holidays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
Click to expand...

Thnks for providing the link that supports what I wrote in post #356. As for what happens in other European countries, that's a subject for another thread, this one's about shootings in Britain, do keep up. So, church shootings in Britain in the last few years, zero. How many in the US?


----------



## Mac-7

JoeB131 said:


> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.


The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights

My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago


----------



## Vagabond63

Mac-7 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
Click to expand...

We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
Click to expand...



No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.

Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....

Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.

Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......

You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.

You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are a moron...
> 
> *When European Jews gather in synagogues to pray for the Pittsburgh congregation attacked last Saturday, many will do so under the watch of armed security contractors and community guards stationed by the entrance to prevent a copycat attempt.
> 
> It is a longstanding feature of Jewish life on the Continent.*
> 
> *For years, and, in some cases, decades,...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Europe’s Jews, Worship Comes With a Heavy Dose of Security
> 
> 
> For years, and, in some cases, decades, Europe’s Jewish congregations have called on a mix of private guards, volunteers and local police to safeguard their synagogues, a stark reminder on how unsafe many of the Continent’s one million Jews feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.*
> 
> *At the moment, parents of children at 39 state-funded Jewish schools in England pay £1.6m towards the cost of enhanced measures like security guards.
> 
> Ministers have decided to foot the bill to ensure children and staff "feel safe" and can concentrate on studying.*
> 
> *They say they will look at the case for similar help for other faith schools.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Government to pay for security guards at Jewish schools
> 
> 
> The government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Armed officers are being deployed to protect Jewish people during religious holidays, as part of an operation led by counterterror police.*
> 
> *Scotland Yard said it had no “intelligence about a specific threat” but was taking precautions as worshippers marked the Jewish new year, Yom Kippur and other festivals over coming weeks.*
> 
> *Security is being heightened around synagogues and other key sites amid “reassurance” patrols that will run up until 2 October.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed police deployed in counterterror operation to protect synagogues during Jewish holidays
> 
> 
> Police brace for potential increase in hate crimes during religious holidays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thnks for providing the link that supports what I wrote in post #356. As for what happens in other European countries, that's a subject for another thread, this one's about shootings in Britain, do keep up. So, church shootings in Britain in the last few years, zero. How many in the US?
Click to expand...



Yes.......your government pays for armed guards.....you know, men with guns......... to protect your Jewish schools and synagogues, since the muslims in your country don't care about your weak and unimportant churches......but they do hate Jewish people.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
Click to expand...



We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....

And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....

5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns

Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears

*Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
*
---------------------------




.4/6/18

Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed

A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.

Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year. 

The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.

Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
=======



Here is the update, the original is below..

Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........

I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?



-------------

British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com

Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'

15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
=======


'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside

Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.

Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.

The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.

He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.



Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester

Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.
*
*Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*


The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are a moron...
> 
> *When European Jews gather in synagogues to pray for the Pittsburgh congregation attacked last Saturday, many will do so under the watch of armed security contractors and community guards stationed by the entrance to prevent a copycat attempt.
> 
> It is a longstanding feature of Jewish life on the Continent.*
> 
> *For years, and, in some cases, decades,...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Europe’s Jews, Worship Comes With a Heavy Dose of Security
> 
> 
> For years, and, in some cases, decades, Europe’s Jewish congregations have called on a mix of private guards, volunteers and local police to safeguard their synagogues, a stark reminder on how unsafe many of the Continent’s one million Jews feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.*
> 
> *At the moment, parents of children at 39 state-funded Jewish schools in England pay £1.6m towards the cost of enhanced measures like security guards.
> 
> Ministers have decided to foot the bill to ensure children and staff "feel safe" and can concentrate on studying.*
> 
> *They say they will look at the case for similar help for other faith schools.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Government to pay for security guards at Jewish schools
> 
> 
> The government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Armed officers are being deployed to protect Jewish people during religious holidays, as part of an operation led by counterterror police.*
> 
> *Scotland Yard said it had no “intelligence about a specific threat” but was taking precautions as worshippers marked the Jewish new year, Yom Kippur and other festivals over coming weeks.*
> 
> *Security is being heightened around synagogues and other key sites amid “reassurance” patrols that will run up until 2 October.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed police deployed in counterterror operation to protect synagogues during Jewish holidays
> 
> 
> Police brace for potential increase in hate crimes during religious holidays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thnks for providing the link that supports what I wrote in post #356. As for what happens in other European countries, that's a subject for another thread, this one's about shootings in Britain, do keep up. So, church shootings in Britain in the last few years, zero. How many in the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......your government pays for armed guards.....you know, men with guns......... to protect your Jewish schools and synagogues, since the muslims in your country don't care about your weak and unimportant churches......but they do hate Jewish people.....
Click to expand...

Our government provides armed police when necessary to any event or area that's likely to be a terrorist target. Much like, I suspect the US government does in similar situations. This is a pointless attempt to deflect the discussion, oh and your rabid Islamophobia is showing as is your anti semitism.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are a moron...
> 
> *When European Jews gather in synagogues to pray for the Pittsburgh congregation attacked last Saturday, many will do so under the watch of armed security contractors and community guards stationed by the entrance to prevent a copycat attempt.
> 
> It is a longstanding feature of Jewish life on the Continent.*
> 
> *For years, and, in some cases, decades,...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Europe’s Jews, Worship Comes With a Heavy Dose of Security
> 
> 
> For years, and, in some cases, decades, Europe’s Jewish congregations have called on a mix of private guards, volunteers and local police to safeguard their synagogues, a stark reminder on how unsafe many of the Continent’s one million Jews feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.*
> 
> *At the moment, parents of children at 39 state-funded Jewish schools in England pay £1.6m towards the cost of enhanced measures like security guards.
> 
> Ministers have decided to foot the bill to ensure children and staff "feel safe" and can concentrate on studying.*
> 
> *They say they will look at the case for similar help for other faith schools.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Government to pay for security guards at Jewish schools
> 
> 
> The government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Armed officers are being deployed to protect Jewish people during religious holidays, as part of an operation led by counterterror police.*
> 
> *Scotland Yard said it had no “intelligence about a specific threat” but was taking precautions as worshippers marked the Jewish new year, Yom Kippur and other festivals over coming weeks.*
> 
> *Security is being heightened around synagogues and other key sites amid “reassurance” patrols that will run up until 2 October.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed police deployed in counterterror operation to protect synagogues during Jewish holidays
> 
> 
> Police brace for potential increase in hate crimes during religious holidays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thnks for providing the link that supports what I wrote in post #356. As for what happens in other European countries, that's a subject for another thread, this one's about shootings in Britain, do keep up. So, church shootings in Britain in the last few years, zero. How many in the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......your government pays for armed guards.....you know, men with guns......... to protect your Jewish schools and synagogues, since the muslims in your country don't care about your weak and unimportant churches......but they do hate Jewish people.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our government provides armed police when necessary to any event or area that's likely to be a terrorist target. Much like, I suspect the US government does in similar situations. This is a pointless attempt to deflect the discussion, oh and your rabid Islamophobia is showing as is your anti semitism.
Click to expand...



We are talking Jewish schools on a daily basis, you twit.   And Jewish places of worship, you twit....but thanks for pretending your don't have a real problem in your country...........  you think gun control works....it doesn't....criminals drive the gun crime rate, not normal people....normal people just become easier victims for the criminals when governments disarm them.....they also become easier victims for the government when the government goes rogue......like it did in Germany when they disarmed the people then murdered 12 million of them......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are a moron...
> 
> *When European Jews gather in synagogues to pray for the Pittsburgh congregation attacked last Saturday, many will do so under the watch of armed security contractors and community guards stationed by the entrance to prevent a copycat attempt.
> 
> It is a longstanding feature of Jewish life on the Continent.*
> 
> *For years, and, in some cases, decades,...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Europe’s Jews, Worship Comes With a Heavy Dose of Security
> 
> 
> For years, and, in some cases, decades, Europe’s Jewish congregations have called on a mix of private guards, volunteers and local police to safeguard their synagogues, a stark reminder on how unsafe many of the Continent’s one million Jews feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.*
> 
> *At the moment, parents of children at 39 state-funded Jewish schools in England pay £1.6m towards the cost of enhanced measures like security guards.
> 
> Ministers have decided to foot the bill to ensure children and staff "feel safe" and can concentrate on studying.*
> 
> *They say they will look at the case for similar help for other faith schools.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Government to pay for security guards at Jewish schools
> 
> 
> The government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Armed officers are being deployed to protect Jewish people during religious holidays, as part of an operation led by counterterror police.*
> 
> *Scotland Yard said it had no “intelligence about a specific threat” but was taking precautions as worshippers marked the Jewish new year, Yom Kippur and other festivals over coming weeks.*
> 
> *Security is being heightened around synagogues and other key sites amid “reassurance” patrols that will run up until 2 October.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed police deployed in counterterror operation to protect synagogues during Jewish holidays
> 
> 
> Police brace for potential increase in hate crimes during religious holidays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thnks for providing the link that supports what I wrote in post #356. As for what happens in other European countries, that's a subject for another thread, this one's about shootings in Britain, do keep up. So, church shootings in Britain in the last few years, zero. How many in the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......your government pays for armed guards.....you know, men with guns......... to protect your Jewish schools and synagogues, since the muslims in your country don't care about your weak and unimportant churches......but they do hate Jewish people.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our government provides armed police when necessary to any event or area that's likely to be a terrorist target. Much like, I suspect the US government does in similar situations. This is a pointless attempt to deflect the discussion, oh and your rabid Islamophobia is showing as is your anti semitism.
Click to expand...



Islamaphobia?   Coming from you, where your government allowed thousands of British girls to be gang raped for years, because they didn't want to offend the muslim community?  Really?  Are you that clueless?

And Anti-semitism?  Where is that in anything I posted?   The anti-semitism comes from your labor party, you doofus...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...
> 
> *The Home Office has granted the Community Security Trust (CST) £14 million for security measures to help keep members of the Jewish community safe in their daily lives.
> 
> The grant will cover protective security for the next financial year at Jewish institutions such as schools and synagogues.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home Office grants £14 million funding for security at Jewish institutions
> 
> 
> The Home Office has provided the Community Security Trust to provide security measures at Jewish schools and synagogues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that grant is for armed guards. In the UK armed protection is allocated by the Government depending on perceived terrorist threat levels. We still have a far less gun massacres over here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are a moron...
> 
> *When European Jews gather in synagogues to pray for the Pittsburgh congregation attacked last Saturday, many will do so under the watch of armed security contractors and community guards stationed by the entrance to prevent a copycat attempt.
> 
> It is a longstanding feature of Jewish life on the Continent.*
> 
> *For years, and, in some cases, decades,...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Europe’s Jews, Worship Comes With a Heavy Dose of Security
> 
> 
> For years, and, in some cases, decades, Europe’s Jewish congregations have called on a mix of private guards, volunteers and local police to safeguard their synagogues, a stark reminder on how unsafe many of the Continent’s one million Jews feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.*
> 
> *At the moment, parents of children at 39 state-funded Jewish schools in England pay £1.6m towards the cost of enhanced measures like security guards.
> 
> Ministers have decided to foot the bill to ensure children and staff "feel safe" and can concentrate on studying.*
> 
> *They say they will look at the case for similar help for other faith schools.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Government to pay for security guards at Jewish schools
> 
> 
> The government is to pick up the cost of providing security guards at Jewish faith schools in England amid concerns about anti-semitic threats to pupils.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Armed officers are being deployed to protect Jewish people during religious holidays, as part of an operation led by counterterror police.*
> 
> *Scotland Yard said it had no “intelligence about a specific threat” but was taking precautions as worshippers marked the Jewish new year, Yom Kippur and other festivals over coming weeks.*
> 
> *Security is being heightened around synagogues and other key sites amid “reassurance” patrols that will run up until 2 October.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed police deployed in counterterror operation to protect synagogues during Jewish holidays
> 
> 
> Police brace for potential increase in hate crimes during religious holidays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thnks for providing the link that supports what I wrote in post #356. As for what happens in other European countries, that's a subject for another thread, this one's about shootings in Britain, do keep up. So, church shootings in Britain in the last few years, zero. How many in the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......your government pays for armed guards.....you know, men with guns......... to protect your Jewish schools and synagogues, since the muslims in your country don't care about your weak and unimportant churches......but they do hate Jewish people.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our government provides armed police when necessary to any event or area that's likely to be a terrorist target. Much like, I suspect the US government does in similar situations. This is a pointless attempt to deflect the discussion, oh and your rabid Islamophobia is showing as is your anti semitism.
Click to expand...



Since you don't have large populations of different races in Britain, you didn't think to call me a racist....that is what left wingers in America do when they can't argue the actual issue....so you went to islamaphobia and anti-semitism in the same dull, stupid way to deflect from the actual issues...

You are a tired, dumb, left wing hack...


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
Click to expand...

And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings. 
Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.


----------



## Cellblock2429

2aguy said:


> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


/—-/ Its all Trump’s fault.


----------



## Cellblock2429

2aguy said:


> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


/——-/ Criminals gonna crime.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
Click to expand...


Not a narrow definition, the Actual definition of a mass public shooting from our Federal Bureau of Investigation....

Where a gang member shoots at another gang's party is not the same thing as an individual with no prior criminal history walking into a public space and shooting people.....that is crime of a different character..........

Different crimes, different motivations and solutions....

The facts....keep in mind....our democrat party President, obama, lowered the number from 4 deaths to 3 because he was trying to increase the number of shootings that counted as mass public shootings....in order to push gun control...

US mass shootings, 1982-2020: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

*Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. *
*-------*


*Here is a description of the criteria we use:*
*The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)*
*The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)*
*The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.)*
* Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*


*Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.*
*We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.*

*----------------------*
*Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. 
We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. *

*While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. *

*Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.*


*Total murders by mass public shooters...1982-2017


795


knife murders.....2009-2017.....*

2009----1,836
2010----1,933
2011----1,611
2012---1,769
2013---1.956
2015....1,589
2016....1,632
2017....1,591

---------
The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones.......

Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source.....not the NRA...

The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...

*I have put obama's updated number in parenthesis..........*

we will see....


US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

*US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


Rental Truck in Nice, France, 86 murdered in 5 minutes...*

Total number murdered in mass public shootings by year...

*Lawn mower deaths every year.... more than 75

(*https://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2007/0419-lawn-mowers.php)
2019....73
2018.....93
2017........117
*2016......71*
2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7
1999...42
1998...14
1997...9
1996...6
1995...6
1994....5
1993...23
1992...9
1991...35
1990...10
1989...15
1988...7
1987...6
1986...15
1985...(none listed)
1984...28
1983 (none listed)
1982...8


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
Click to expand...



Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......


And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......

Your people won't be so lucky...........


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Its tuesday now and no shootings reported for a few days. What are you up to old fella. Stop polishing your bullets and start spreading bullshit.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
Click to expand...

Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
Click to expand...

Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.


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## Vagabond63

Oh, as for lawnmower deaths, if you Yanks can't even drive lawnmowers, do you really think you can be trusted with real weapons?


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## Vagabond63

What I find most grotesque is that 3 or more people have to actually die before the incident is classed as a mass shooting, so all the wounded somehow don't matter? A mass shooting is a mass shooting, regardless of how many die. The USA, rose from barbarism to decadence, but never made it to civilisation, sad.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
Click to expand...


Moron.....your murder rate was low when you had guns...due to your history, your culture, traditions  and people......you didn't need to ban guns because your murder rate was low to begin with...

Now....you have imported violent,3rd world males, and they are the ones driving your drug crime...because they don't care about your history, your culture, your traditions and they are not afraid of your police....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
Click to expand...



Wrong.....that is wrong.

You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.

When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.

The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....

Two different categories of crime and responses....

.....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...

Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> What I find most grotesque is that 3 or more people have to actually die before the incident is classed as a mass shooting, so all the wounded somehow don't matter? A mass shooting is a mass shooting, regardless of how many die. The USA, rose from barbarism to decadence, but never made it to civilisation, sad.




No.....a mass public shooting is different from a gang member shooting up a rival gang's block party.....different motivations, different solutions to the problem.

To stop gang members,  who have long histories of crime and violence who can't legally buy, own or carry guns.........you keep them locked up instead of releasing them over and over again the way the democrat party releases violent, repeat gun offenders...over and over again.

For mass public shooters who usually have no criminal history and the only crime they commit is the actual attack.....you stop them through intelligence...people reporting them to the police.......and by getting rid of gun free zones...since they target gun free zones as their preferred targets.......

Different crimes, different perpetrators, different solutions...

This is why you aren't right about anything, you don't understand the issues.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, as for lawnmower deaths, if you Yanks can't even drive lawnmowers, do you really think you can be trusted with real weapons?




Yes, we should ban lawn mowers....they kill more people year than AR-15 rifles.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
Click to expand...



You do realize your Catholics, way back when, banned and confiscated guns from your protestants before they butchered them...right?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
Click to expand...



Stephen Wileford....Plumber......

*“I’m a plumber,” Willeford said to the stranger, smiling.*

*Growing up, Willeford worked at a local dairy owned by his family. “I squeezed more tits before I was eight than you will your whole life,” he likes to joke.*









						The Hero of Sutherland Springs Is Still Reckoning with What Happened that Day
					

One year ago, after Stephen Willeford disrupted the mass murder at First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, he was hailed as the ultimate good guy with a gun, but he's still reckoning with what happened that day—and what his life has become.




					www.texasmonthly.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 
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> Mac-7 said:
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> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
Click to expand...



Here......this is a collection of normal people saving lives from common rapists, robbers and murderers...please tell me how they can do what they did with their guns while they are not Navy SEALs or members of a SWAT team....

The first one is one of my favorites....a life saved from rape or rape and murder thrown in......

In your country she would have been raped.......likely murdered...

Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them

*LANCASTER, Ohio - It happened along a walking path in Lancaster.

Dinah Burns is licensed to carry a concealed gun, but she'd only recently started taking her weapon while walking her dog.

Based on what happened, it looks like she'll make a point of carrying from now on.

"I think if they'd gotten any closer, I probably would have fired,” said Burns.

It was Monday when Burns was on a footpath near Sanderson Elementary School.

"Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said 'You're coming with us'."

The men weren't deterred by Dinah's dog Gracie.

"I said, 'Well, what do you want?,' and as I was saying that I reached in to my pocket and slipped my gun out, slipped the safety off as I pulled it out. As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, 'I have this and I'm not afraid to use it.'"

The men took off and so far have eluded police. Dinah posted about the incident on Facebook to alert friends and neighbors, to criticism by some.

"Most of the males' opinion was, 'Why didn't you shoot them?'"

Easy to second-guess a decision made under pressure, based on her concealed carry training, and police agree.

"To get out of a situation, back out, get out of it as much as you can without having to discharge your firearm."

"I will say it's a good thing to go from a place of danger to a place of safety, however you get that done,” said Sgt. Matt Chambers, Lancaster Police.

"Very thankful that it turned out the way it did, and hope it doesn't happen again, but I will be prepared."*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
Click to expand...



Now...for more Americans using their legal guns to save themselves and others from rape, robbery and murder.....

*'I had to take care of things': Gun-wielding Texas mother scares off intruder*
*The family does not want to be identified, but wanted to share the story in hope that awareness can help in similar situations.

The mother was at home with the family's 3-month-old daughter Thursday night. Her husband was out of town working, but was coming home Friday to celebrate the first Christmas with their daughter.

After tossing and turning in bed for a while, the mother was not able to fall asleep and went to the living room around 11:30 p.m.

About an hour later, she heard the home alarm beep and her back door open.

Her instinct kicked in.

"I froze for a second and then I realized I needed to spring into action, I mean, I had my baby in the house. I was alone. My husband was away on business, so I had to take care of things," she said.

She grabbed a gun and went towards the back door, where she found a man standing in her kitchen.

She yelled at the man while pointing the gun at him, and her dog ran towards him, scaring him out of the back door.

She locked the door and called 911.
================

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/22/suspect-puts-gun-mans-head-gets-shot/
A suspect put a gun to a man’s head on Thursday only to flee under a barrage of bullets after the would-be victim pulled his own gun and opened fire.

The incident occurred in Philadelphia’s West Oak Lane.

According to 6 ABC, Rahkeim Kelly was “headed home from buying a soda” when the suspect in a hoodie approached and put a gun to his head. Kelly managed to move away quickly, take cover behind a car, draw his own gun, and open fire.

The suspect, 22-year-old Osirus Lester, fled the scene.

Kelly said, “I fired two shots first, then he tried to take off running. I fired one more, then he ended up dropping the gun. He ran off and I just went and secured the weapon.”
Lester was arrested within minutes with a gunshot wound to his wrist.

Philadelphia Police Capt. Sekou Kinnebrew said, “[Kelly] does have a valid permit to carry. We checked that out. He’s the victim of a robbery. He did attempt to retreat, taking cover behind a car. But the offender continued to aggress, and (the victim) had to defend himself.”
=====================

11/25/17
Auto shop employees credited with taking down accused Rockledge gunman

ROCKLEDGE — A man armed with a .45-caliber handgun and a lot of ammunition wandered onto an auto repair shop property and began firing in the parking lot Friday afternoon, police said.

The gunman killed one employee and paralyzed a second. That's when the employees at Schlenker Automotive fought back with equal force, Rockledge police chief Joseph La Sata said.

"The manager, who was a concealed weapons permit holder, came out and engaged in gunfire in the parking lot," La Sata said. "The manager fled back inside the building, being chased by the gunman. Another Schlenker employee, who also had concealed weapons permit, engaged in gunfire with the suspect."

Police said the suspect in the homicide is Robert Lorenzo Bailey Jr., 28, of Cocoa. He was shot twice and was in critical condition at Health First's Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne. Officers are keeping him under watch.
===================
11/15/17

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/good-guy-gun-stops-sex-assault-hiking-trail

According to The Blaze, Josh Williams, 39, nearly left his handgun at home when heading out to the hiking trail on a dark morning back in September, but he felt the nagging sensation that he should take it anyway. That turned out to be the right call because while on the trail at 5:30 a.m., Williams heard a woman scream loud enough to get past his music-blaring earbuds. 

In the darkness, Williams shined his flashlight and discovered a woman being sexually assaulted and approached the perpetrator.

“I came up, pulled my gun and told him to get off of her,” Williams recalled. He then asked the man to get on his knees and asked to see his hands: “That way I knew he didn’t have a weapon. And at that point he was no threat, so I didn’t feel the need to shoot him.”

The perp ran away but thanks to a good description from both the victim and Williams, police were able to later apprehend 22-year-old Richard McEachern and charge him with sexual assault.

The victim was very glad Williams decided to carry that day and used a gun to save her from a dangerous situation. That was the first time Williams ever pointed his weapon at another person, but it confirmed for him the importance of the Second Amendment:
*


> *“It’s dark, and I don’t know what’s out there, so I have it to protect myself and other people. That’s what it’s all about anyway — to help other people with it, not just myself.
> “I didn’t think I’d ever have to pull it. Did I want to? No, not at all. But just … right place, right time.”
> *





> *====================*


*11/11/17

81-year-old homeowner fatally shoots armed robber

A suspect was shot and killed when he tried to rob an 81-year-old man at gunpoint outside of the man’s home in Genoa, Arkansas, on Thursday afternoon.

Buddy Cates told KSLA that he walked outside of his home around 1:30 p.m. and came face to face with the suspect, who authorities are still working to identify.

Cates said the suspect was holding a “big pistol,” but Cates also had his hand in his pocket, gripping his own gun.

“The battle was one,” Cates recalled, noting that, between the two, at least a dozen shots were fired.

“Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done,” Cates said. “In this case, it was me.”

Cates was uninjured, but the suspect died after he was taken to a hospital in Texarkana, not far from Cates’ home.

After the attempted robbery and subsequent shooting, three women were arrested in connection to the crime, according to reports from the Texarkana Gazette. Kiana Keshaun Montgomery, 21; Shaynesha Martin, 19; and Ke’Erica Turner, 20, are all facing charges for aggravated robbery and are being held at the Miller County Detention Center. Authorities did not say what part the women played in the robbery or whether they are believed to be responsible for other crimes.


11/4/17

Walmart shooting, where good guys didn't shoot

Colorado Walmart's Armed Innocents Hampered Police. Or Not. - The Truth About Guns

First, the police weren’t on scene when the killer fired his gun; they arrived after the perp had escaped. Second, the armed good guys didn’t shoot other armed good guys (no shots were fired by anyone other than the bad guy). And third, other reports indicate that the killer scarpered after he caught sight of armed opposition.*
*
Given these facts one could easily argue that armed defenders prevented greater loss of life. And that all the anti-gun rights hysteria about the presence of armed innocents making\ cops’ jobs harder is a bunch of horsesh*t. I mean, how exactly did these armed Americans threaten public safety?

------

Nine-point-nine times out of ten, the police are not the first responders to an act of violence. The innocent people being attacked are the first responders. The idea that they should be disarmed to make it easier for armed police to respond — most often after the fact — is to say that it’s OK to sacrifice innocent life on the altar of imagined efficiency. It isn’t.

Besides, as National Association for Gun Rights Prez Dudley Brown told the Times, “In that situation, what are people supposed to do? Lay down on the floor and draw chalk marks around themselves?”*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
Click to expand...



And more....... you would prefer these victims get raped, robbed or murdered, rather than use their legal guns to stop these attacks.........

*Dallas Homeowner's Story Proves Why Private Citizens Need Guns*
*
For one Dallas homeowner, however, the nightmare became reality.

A man that police believe intended to rob a Lake Highlands home was shot early Monday morning.

It happened in the 9500 block of Moss Farm Lane near Abrams Road and Royal Lane.

The homeowner said the man first rang his doorbell around 5 a.m. He apologized for being at the wrong home and left.

A few minutes later the man came back, kicked in the door and forced his way inside. But the homeowner had a gun and opened fire, police said.

Neighbors said they heard about a half a dozen shots. When responding officers arrived they found the wounded suspect in the street. The suspect was taken to the hospital in critical condition. He is expected to survive, police said.

The homeowner and his wife were reportedly unhurt and are cooperating with investigators, which is to be expected. After all, it rarely gets to be a more clear case of self-defense than that. I mean, the suspect reportedly knew the house was occupied, yet busted the door in just the same. It’s not an unreasonable assumption to believe that he allegedly entered that home with harmful intent.

And he was shot for his troubles.

Now, he gets to recover from his wounds and contemplate his life choices that led him to get shot in some stranger’s house simply because he apparently thought he had the right to bust into someone else’s home. If he’s smart, he’ll realize he’s fortunate to be alive and seek the path of redemption.

10/20/17

Good guy with a gun stops kidnapping

It was habit, not heroism, that caused Justin Pearson to grab his gun.

But seconds later, that weapon enabled Pearson to stop a kidnapping taking place just outside his Las Vegas home on Oct. 5.

“We heard this real loud noise outside,” said Pearson, 36. “I opened up the door, and this big BMW goes flying by — 60 mph in a 25 mph zone. I dialed 911 immediately.”

As he always does before leaving his house, Pearson, a concealed-carry weapon permit holder, put his pistol on his hip. The 911 operator asked for a license plate number, so Pearson moved down the street to get it.

“He had lost control of the car and almost went into a house at the end of the street,” Pearson said. The BMW then turned around and stopped in front of a neighbor’s yard, where a 6-year-old boy was standing.

“About 50 yards in front of me, the driver grabs this young child and starts stuffing him in the car,” Pearson said.

“‘Holy crap, he just took a child, and he’s trying to stuff him into the car!’” Pearson remembers telling the operator.

Pearson is 6-foot-4 but makes a beanpole look stocky. The kidnapper, Pearson recalls, was a similar height, but was a “solid” 250 pounds.

“He was a very big dude, and I’m not a menacing person by any means,” Pearson said. “I don’t think I could have physically stopped the guy. It would have been super ugly if it was just me versus him.”

Fortunately, Pearson had a trump card — a Heckler & Koch VP9 pistol legally resting on his right hip.


“I carry a concealed firearm everywhere I go,” Pearson said. “I lifted up my shirt and put my hand on my gun.”

“‘Hey, stop!’ I said, real loud. He turned and looked at me. There was just enough of a delay for the kid to get out of the car. I know he saw the firearm.”

With the boy out of the car and an armed citizen staring him down, the man decided to drive away. Pearson and his still-holstered pistol stopped a kidnapping. Police wouldn’t arrive for 17 minutes.

“If I didn’t have a firearm, I don’t think there’s much I could have done,” Pearson said.

A Metropolitan Police Department spokeswoman confirmed many of the details in Pearson’s story, including the date, time and location. Pearson said — and Metro confirmed — that the would-be kidnapper was the boy’s biological father, who didn’t have parental rights or permission to take the child.

This isn’t the first time Pearson has used a firearm to stop a crime.

“Many years ago, I was carrying and a guy pulled a knife on a friend of mine,” Pearson said. “I quickly drew my firearm, and the kid ran away.”


These kinds of stories rarely make the news. But they happen more often than we realize and underscore an important point. Concealed-carry weapon permit holders prevent crimes.

============

10/16/17

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.
DC GUN-FREE ZONES CAUSE CONFUSION OVER LEGALITY OF GUN CARRY EVEN WITH A PERMIT

Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.

After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.

Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.

May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.

===========

10/11/17

Woman stabbed shoots and kills attacker...

Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.

About 4:05 p.m. Oct. 5, the 25-year-old man was shot in the chest when he stabbed the 25-year-old woman multiple times in the 4000 block of West 21st Street, Chicago Police said.

The woman was taken in serious condition to Mount Sinai Hospital, and the man was pronounced dead at the scene at 4:48 p.m., authorities said.

The Cook County medical examiner’s office identified him as Pleasure Cardell Singleton Jr.

The stabbing was believed to be a domestic incident, police said, but the nature of the relationship between the two wasn’t released.
======

9/25/17
*


> *
> Would-be robber fatally shot by resident after forcing family into basement
> 
> A man was shot and killed inside a home in Hammond, Indiana, Friday morning while attempting to rob the residents.
> 
> According to a statement from the Hammond Police Department, the suspect, who has not been publicly identified, entered the home through the front door around 7:30 a.m. The suspect said he knew of a safe in the basement of the home and announced a robbery while threatening the residents with the firearm.
> 
> The suspect then forced three residents into the basement, but unbeknown to the would-be robber, there was a fourth resident inside the house as well. The fourth resident retrieved a handgun, and when the suspect came out of the basement and walked into the kitchen, he shot the suspect multiple times in the chest.
> 
> Police were called, and when officers arrived on the scene, the suspect, who was only identified as a black male, was found lying on the kitchen floor. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
> 
> ==========
> *


*
9/8/17

Taco Bell employees shoot, kill armed robbery suspect

CLEVELAND – Three employees at a Cleveland Taco Bell shot and killed a suspect during an attempted robbery, according to police.

Officers responded to the restaurant on W. 117th street at 2:45 a.m. Wednesday morning for a report of a robbery with shots fired.

When police arrived, they found a suspect with multiple gunshot wounds. Officers administered first aid until EMS arrived. The suspect later died at MetroHealth Medical Center. The medical examiner later identified the suspect as 24-year-old Cleveland resident De'Carlo Jackson.

Another man, believed to be Jackson's accomplice, had already taken off by the time officers arrived.

Police say a preliminary investigation indicates that three Taco Bell employees, all armed, shot at the two suspects after they came into the restaurant wearing masks and ordered the employees to the ground at gunpoint.
==============

8/23/17

Police: Robber tries to take woman's purse, flees when 57-year-old shows gun at west Little Rock shopping center

The would-be robber reportedly grabbed the woman’s purse while it rested on her shoulder, at which point, the victim brandished a weapon she had stored inside.

According to the report, the assailant then fled west through the parking lot of the grocery store and behind Belk.

No items were listed as stolen from the woman.
===================
8/9/17

Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.

According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.

Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.


Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”

Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.

Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”


8/6/17

Police: Armed Woman Stops Road Rage Attacker with One Shot - Breitbart

Police in Glendale, Arizona, say an armed woman stopped a road rage attacker with one shot on Wednesday.
The armed motorist repeatedly said she was armed but the attacker ignored her warnings.*
*
According to 3 TV/CBS 5, Glendale Police Sgt. Scott Waite said a driver that was cut off by another vehicle at 67th and Olive Avenues, and then followed the vehicle “to 59th Avenue and Bell Road where a physical altercation took place.”

The road rage suspect allegedly approached the car and struck the passenger in the face, at which point the female driver exited the vehicle and announced that she was armed. Unfazed, “the suspect then [allegedly] approached the armed driver and punched her in the face and continued to assault her, putting her into a headlock.”


Waite said the road rage suspect kept attacking the driver, even though the driver continued warning that she was armed. Realizing there was no other option, the driver then fired one shot, “ending the fight.”

A witness of the incident told 12 News, “One of them broke the car window of another car pulled the lady out and they started fighting in the middle of the street. One got on top of the other and the girl just pulled out a gun and shot her in the gut.”*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
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> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
Click to expand...



And more.....



> *66-year-old jewelry store owner beaten during robbery, shoots 2 suspects, third in custody
> 
> Authorities say the trio – all of whom were armed with handguns – entered the business around 2:45, displayed their weapons and demanded cash and merchandise before they began beating and pistol whipping the 66-year-old store owner. At some point during the assault, the store owner was able to break free and retrieve his own gun.
> 
> The owner opened fire on the suspects and a gunfight ensued. During this time, Gomez and Mitchell were struck by gunfire. The owner, although he sustained injuries from the assault, was not injured by gunfire.
> 
> Soon after shots were fired, the trio ran from the store and fled the area in a vehicle that had been parked at a nearby carwash.
> 
> Gomez, who suffered multiple gunshot wounds, was dropped off at an area hospital, and Mitchell was found lying in the roadway at another location. Gomez, who has robbery charges pending, remains hospitalized, while Mitchell was pronounced dead at the scene where he was found.
> 
> Two days after the robbery, authorities received a tip that Harris was hiding out in San Antonio, leading the Lone Star Fugitive Task Force to conduct surveillance. The Task Force witnessed Harris leave a residence then get into a vehicle and drive away. A subsequent traffic stop was conducted, during which time Harris surrendered without incident.*


*

7/24/17

72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’

After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.

“They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”

Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.

“I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.

Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.

Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.


7/18/17
no shots fired....
17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder

On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.

The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.

The police provided updates on the The Wake Up Show on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.

Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.

She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.

Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"

The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
=========================


How much money, how many lives are saved by armed americans...Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:

Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.

For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).

It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .

In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.

The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.

In the K-G article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.

[NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]

How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.

According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.

So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.

=========


*


> *
> This Guy Tried To Rob A 7-Eleven. The Clerk Had A Gun.
> 
> A man attempted to rob a 7-Eleven in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Saturday, but was stopped by a clerk with a gun.
> 
> The man, identified as Davin McClenney, allegedly attempted the robbery at 1:06 a.m. but was shot by a 7-Eleven clerk who has not yet been publicly identified.
> 
> When police arrived at the scene, McClenney was already down with a bullet in his upper body. He was taken to the hospital, where he is currently in critical condition.
> 
> McClenney has a prior criminal record that includes three robberies, one of which was a home invasion in July 2016 that involved him reportedly taking numerous items from the homeowner at gunpoint. He was set to stand trial for the crime in August, but a judge granted his release from jail on bond in December.
> *


*
=================
6/2/17 teenage thug shot and killed

Chicago teen fatally shot by CCP-holder during attempted robbery

A 16-year-old boy is dead after he allegedly tried to rob a man outside of a bank in the Oak Park area of Chicago Saturday morning.

Police say it appears the teen, who was armed with a gun, approached the 24-year-old victim just after 11 a.m. intending to commit a robbery. However, the would-be victim was also armed and an exchange of gunfire occurred.

The teen, who was identified as Damon Phillips, was shot multiple times in the chest and fled the scene in a waiting car. He later showed up at an area hospital where he was pronounced dead about half an hour after the attempted robbery. It wasn’t immediately known how Phillips got to the hospital or whether there was a second suspect involved.

The victim, who authorities confirmed has a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon, was not injured.

No charges have been filed at this time, although the incident remains under investigation.




5/110/17 Chicago car jackers shot

Alleged carjacker shot, wounded on SW Side

CHICAGO (WLS) --
The victim of an apparent carjacking shot and wounded one of the two men who allegedly tried to steal his vehicle Wednesday afternoon on the city's Southwest Side, police said.

The carjacker was shot in the groin, and were nabbed by police outside an auto repair shop near 63rd and Whipple in the Chicago Lawn neighborhood.

The 29-year-old owner of the vehicle, who has a valid conceal and carry license, fired his weapon after the two men approached him outside his PT Cruiser near 62nd and Homan.

The carjacker who was hit, a 25-year-old man, was taken to Christ Medical Center where he was in good condition on Wednesday, police said.

A witness said that by the time the PT Cruiser pulled into the driveway of the auto repair shop, it was being followed by five to six police cars.

Surveillance video captured the moment when police approached the vehicle outside the auto repair shop, two people in the car with their hands up.

Police found blood in the backseat and a flat tire.

Both offenders were in custody Wednesday
=========


1/23/17

Pizza Delivery Man Shot, Returns Fire

In southwest Philadelphia, a pizza deliveryman was ambushed and shot after he arrived at the location of a "customer."



The 36-year-old father of eight was delivering pizzas for Chester Pizza just after 7 p.m. Someone had called for a delivery and gave the address of an abandoned house in the 5300 block of Yocum Street


He got out of his car and almost immediately found himself face-to-face with the armed suspect.



"A group of males came from the abandoned property towards him," said Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker. "One pulled a gun, pointed it at the pizza delivery driver's head (and) demanded money and pizzas."

Keyveat Fredericks struggled with the attackers and then made it to his car. "I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me," he described.

He was shot on his arm and hip.

But Fredericks didn't give up. He hid behind his car, unholstered his weapon, and shot back.*
*=======*


----------



## Mac-7

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
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> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And more.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *66-year-old jewelry store owner beaten during robbery, shoots 2 suspects, third in custody
> 
> Authorities say the trio – all of whom were armed with handguns – entered the business around 2:45, displayed their weapons and demanded cash and merchandise before they began beating and pistol whipping the 66-year-old store owner. At some point during the assault, the store owner was able to break free and retrieve his own gun.
> 
> The owner opened fire on the suspects and a gunfight ensued. During this time, Gomez and Mitchell were struck by gunfire. The owner, although he sustained injuries from the assault, was not injured by gunfire.
> 
> Soon after shots were fired, the trio ran from the store and fled the area in a vehicle that had been parked at a nearby carwash.
> 
> Gomez, who suffered multiple gunshot wounds, was dropped off at an area hospital, and Mitchell was found lying in the roadway at another location. Gomez, who has robbery charges pending, remains hospitalized, while Mitchell was pronounced dead at the scene where he was found.
> 
> Two days after the robbery, authorities received a tip that Harris was hiding out in San Antonio, leading the Lone Star Fugitive Task Force to conduct surveillance. The Task Force witnessed Harris leave a residence then get into a vehicle and drive away. A subsequent traffic stop was conducted, during which time Harris surrendered without incident.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *7/24/17
> 
> 72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’
> 
> After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.
> 
> “They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”
> 
> Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.
> 
> “I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.
> 
> Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.
> 
> Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.
> 
> 
> 7/18/17
> no shots fired....
> 17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder
> 
> On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.
> 
> The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.
> 
> The police provided updates on the The Wake Up Show on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.
> 
> Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.
> 
> She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.
> 
> Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"
> 
> The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
> =========================
> 
> 
> How much money, how many lives are saved by armed americans...Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:
> 
> Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.
> 
> For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> 
> The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.
> 
> In the K-G article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.
> 
> [NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
> 
> =========*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Guy Tried To Rob A 7-Eleven. The Clerk Had A Gun.
> 
> A man attempted to rob a 7-Eleven in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Saturday, but was stopped by a clerk with a gun.
> 
> The man, identified as Davin McClenney, allegedly attempted the robbery at 1:06 a.m. but was shot by a 7-Eleven clerk who has not yet been publicly identified.
> 
> When police arrived at the scene, McClenney was already down with a bullet in his upper body. He was taken to the hospital, where he is currently in critical condition.
> 
> McClenney has a prior criminal record that includes three robberies, one of which was a home invasion in July 2016 that involved him reportedly taking numerous items from the homeowner at gunpoint. He was set to stand trial for the crime in August, but a judge granted his release from jail on bond in December.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *=================
> 6/2/17 teenage thug shot and killed
> 
> Chicago teen fatally shot by CCP-holder during attempted robbery
> 
> A 16-year-old boy is dead after he allegedly tried to rob a man outside of a bank in the Oak Park area of Chicago Saturday morning.
> 
> Police say it appears the teen, who was armed with a gun, approached the 24-year-old victim just after 11 a.m. intending to commit a robbery. However, the would-be victim was also armed and an exchange of gunfire occurred.
> 
> The teen, who was identified as Damon Phillips, was shot multiple times in the chest and fled the scene in a waiting car. He later showed up at an area hospital where he was pronounced dead about half an hour after the attempted robbery. It wasn’t immediately known how Phillips got to the hospital or whether there was a second suspect involved.
> 
> The victim, who authorities confirmed has a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon, was not injured.
> 
> No charges have been filed at this time, although the incident remains under investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5/110/17 Chicago car jackers shot
> 
> Alleged carjacker shot, wounded on SW Side
> 
> CHICAGO (WLS) --
> The victim of an apparent carjacking shot and wounded one of the two men who allegedly tried to steal his vehicle Wednesday afternoon on the city's Southwest Side, police said.
> 
> The carjacker was shot in the groin, and were nabbed by police outside an auto repair shop near 63rd and Whipple in the Chicago Lawn neighborhood.
> 
> The 29-year-old owner of the vehicle, who has a valid conceal and carry license, fired his weapon after the two men approached him outside his PT Cruiser near 62nd and Homan.
> 
> The carjacker who was hit, a 25-year-old man, was taken to Christ Medical Center where he was in good condition on Wednesday, police said.
> 
> A witness said that by the time the PT Cruiser pulled into the driveway of the auto repair shop, it was being followed by five to six police cars.
> 
> Surveillance video captured the moment when police approached the vehicle outside the auto repair shop, two people in the car with their hands up.
> 
> Police found blood in the backseat and a flat tire.
> 
> Both offenders were in custody Wednesday
> =========
> 
> 
> 1/23/17
> 
> Pizza Delivery Man Shot, Returns Fire
> 
> In southwest Philadelphia, a pizza deliveryman was ambushed and shot after he arrived at the location of a "customer."
> 
> 
> 
> The 36-year-old father of eight was delivering pizzas for Chester Pizza just after 7 p.m. Someone had called for a delivery and gave the address of an abandoned house in the 5300 block of Yocum Street
> 
> 
> He got out of his car and almost immediately found himself face-to-face with the armed suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> "A group of males came from the abandoned property towards him," said Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker. "One pulled a gun, pointed it at the pizza delivery driver's head (and) demanded money and pizzas."
> 
> Keyveat Fredericks struggled with the attackers and then made it to his car. "I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me," he described.
> 
> He was shot on his arm and hip.
> 
> But Fredericks didn't give up. He hid behind his car, unholstered his weapon, and shot back.*
> *=======*
Click to expand...

You have far more patience than I do

Vagabond63 is a troll.

and not even an American troll

he has few if any rights remaining in the UK and just wants to see Americans suffer too.

its simple penis envy and nothing more

no matter how long you argue he will never change his mind


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And more.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *66-year-old jewelry store owner beaten during robbery, shoots 2 suspects, third in custody
> 
> Authorities say the trio – all of whom were armed with handguns – entered the business around 2:45, displayed their weapons and demanded cash and merchandise before they began beating and pistol whipping the 66-year-old store owner. At some point during the assault, the store owner was able to break free and retrieve his own gun.
> 
> The owner opened fire on the suspects and a gunfight ensued. During this time, Gomez and Mitchell were struck by gunfire. The owner, although he sustained injuries from the assault, was not injured by gunfire.
> 
> Soon after shots were fired, the trio ran from the store and fled the area in a vehicle that had been parked at a nearby carwash.
> 
> Gomez, who suffered multiple gunshot wounds, was dropped off at an area hospital, and Mitchell was found lying in the roadway at another location. Gomez, who has robbery charges pending, remains hospitalized, while Mitchell was pronounced dead at the scene where he was found.
> 
> Two days after the robbery, authorities received a tip that Harris was hiding out in San Antonio, leading the Lone Star Fugitive Task Force to conduct surveillance. The Task Force witnessed Harris leave a residence then get into a vehicle and drive away. A subsequent traffic stop was conducted, during which time Harris surrendered without incident.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *7/24/17
> 
> 72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’
> 
> After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.
> 
> “They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”
> 
> Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.
> 
> “I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.
> 
> Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.
> 
> Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.
> 
> 
> 7/18/17
> no shots fired....
> 17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder
> 
> On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.
> 
> The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.
> 
> The police provided updates on the The Wake Up Show on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.
> 
> Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.
> 
> She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.
> 
> Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"
> 
> The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
> =========================
> 
> 
> How much money, how many lives are saved by armed americans...Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:
> 
> Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.
> 
> For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> 
> The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.
> 
> In the K-G article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.
> 
> [NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
> 
> =========*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Guy Tried To Rob A 7-Eleven. The Clerk Had A Gun.
> 
> A man attempted to rob a 7-Eleven in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Saturday, but was stopped by a clerk with a gun.
> 
> The man, identified as Davin McClenney, allegedly attempted the robbery at 1:06 a.m. but was shot by a 7-Eleven clerk who has not yet been publicly identified.
> 
> When police arrived at the scene, McClenney was already down with a bullet in his upper body. He was taken to the hospital, where he is currently in critical condition.
> 
> McClenney has a prior criminal record that includes three robberies, one of which was a home invasion in July 2016 that involved him reportedly taking numerous items from the homeowner at gunpoint. He was set to stand trial for the crime in August, but a judge granted his release from jail on bond in December.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *=================
> 6/2/17 teenage thug shot and killed
> 
> Chicago teen fatally shot by CCP-holder during attempted robbery
> 
> A 16-year-old boy is dead after he allegedly tried to rob a man outside of a bank in the Oak Park area of Chicago Saturday morning.
> 
> Police say it appears the teen, who was armed with a gun, approached the 24-year-old victim just after 11 a.m. intending to commit a robbery. However, the would-be victim was also armed and an exchange of gunfire occurred.
> 
> The teen, who was identified as Damon Phillips, was shot multiple times in the chest and fled the scene in a waiting car. He later showed up at an area hospital where he was pronounced dead about half an hour after the attempted robbery. It wasn’t immediately known how Phillips got to the hospital or whether there was a second suspect involved.
> 
> The victim, who authorities confirmed has a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon, was not injured.
> 
> No charges have been filed at this time, although the incident remains under investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5/110/17 Chicago car jackers shot
> 
> Alleged carjacker shot, wounded on SW Side
> 
> CHICAGO (WLS) --
> The victim of an apparent carjacking shot and wounded one of the two men who allegedly tried to steal his vehicle Wednesday afternoon on the city's Southwest Side, police said.
> 
> The carjacker was shot in the groin, and were nabbed by police outside an auto repair shop near 63rd and Whipple in the Chicago Lawn neighborhood.
> 
> The 29-year-old owner of the vehicle, who has a valid conceal and carry license, fired his weapon after the two men approached him outside his PT Cruiser near 62nd and Homan.
> 
> The carjacker who was hit, a 25-year-old man, was taken to Christ Medical Center where he was in good condition on Wednesday, police said.
> 
> A witness said that by the time the PT Cruiser pulled into the driveway of the auto repair shop, it was being followed by five to six police cars.
> 
> Surveillance video captured the moment when police approached the vehicle outside the auto repair shop, two people in the car with their hands up.
> 
> Police found blood in the backseat and a flat tire.
> 
> Both offenders were in custody Wednesday
> =========
> 
> 
> 1/23/17
> 
> Pizza Delivery Man Shot, Returns Fire
> 
> In southwest Philadelphia, a pizza deliveryman was ambushed and shot after he arrived at the location of a "customer."
> 
> 
> 
> The 36-year-old father of eight was delivering pizzas for Chester Pizza just after 7 p.m. Someone had called for a delivery and gave the address of an abandoned house in the 5300 block of Yocum Street
> 
> 
> He got out of his car and almost immediately found himself face-to-face with the armed suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> "A group of males came from the abandoned property towards him," said Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker. "One pulled a gun, pointed it at the pizza delivery driver's head (and) demanded money and pizzas."
> 
> Keyveat Fredericks struggled with the attackers and then made it to his car. "I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me," he described.
> 
> He was shot on his arm and hip.
> 
> But Fredericks didn't give up. He hid behind his car, unholstered his weapon, and shot back.*
> *=======*
Click to expand...

I think you may be in double figures now. Still a million short of a million though.


----------



## Vagabond63

Driv


2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> HenryBHough said:
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> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron.....your murder rate was low when you had guns...due to your history, your culture, traditions  and people......you didn't need to ban guns because your murder rate was low to begin with...
> 
> Now....you have imported violent,3rd world males, and they are the ones driving your drug crime...because they don't care about your history, your culture, your traditions and they are not afraid of your police....
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron.....your murder rate was low when you had guns...due to your history, your culture, traditions  and people......you didn't need to ban guns because your murder rate was low to begin with...
> 
> Now....you have imported violent,3rd world males, and they are the ones driving your drug crime...because they don't care about your history, your culture, your traditions and they are not afraid of your police....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pure BS. Our gun crime and murder rate dropped dramatically since 1997,when we banned most handguns. It's only started to rise again after a decade or two of Right wing governments creating huge inequalities in our society and cutting back on our police.
Click to expand...


----------



## Vagabond63

Prove it.


2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
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> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
Click to expand...


----------



## Vagabond63

No, you should train people





2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, as for lawnmower deaths, if you Yanks can't even drive lawnmowers, do you really think you can be trusted with real weapons?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we should ban lawn mowers....they kill more people year than AR-15 rifles.
Click to expand...

No, you should provide proper training to use lawnmowers. With guns you should register who owns a gun, require a minimum standard of competence and then iss


Mac-7 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
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> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And more.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *66-year-old jewelry store owner beaten during robbery, shoots 2 suspects, third in custody
> 
> Authorities say the trio – all of whom were armed with handguns – entered the business around 2:45, displayed their weapons and demanded cash and merchandise before they began beating and pistol whipping the 66-year-old store owner. At some point during the assault, the store owner was able to break free and retrieve his own gun.
> 
> The owner opened fire on the suspects and a gunfight ensued. During this time, Gomez and Mitchell were struck by gunfire. The owner, although he sustained injuries from the assault, was not injured by gunfire.
> 
> Soon after shots were fired, the trio ran from the store and fled the area in a vehicle that had been parked at a nearby carwash.
> 
> Gomez, who suffered multiple gunshot wounds, was dropped off at an area hospital, and Mitchell was found lying in the roadway at another location. Gomez, who has robbery charges pending, remains hospitalized, while Mitchell was pronounced dead at the scene where he was found.
> 
> Two days after the robbery, authorities received a tip that Harris was hiding out in San Antonio, leading the Lone Star Fugitive Task Force to conduct surveillance. The Task Force witnessed Harris leave a residence then get into a vehicle and drive away. A subsequent traffic stop was conducted, during which time Harris surrendered without incident.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *7/24/17
> 
> 72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’
> 
> After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.
> 
> “They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”
> 
> Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.
> 
> “I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.
> 
> Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.
> 
> Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.
> 
> 
> 7/18/17
> no shots fired....
> 17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder
> 
> On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.
> 
> The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.
> 
> The police provided updates on the The Wake Up Show on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.
> 
> Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.
> 
> She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.
> 
> Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"
> 
> The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
> =========================
> 
> 
> How much money, how many lives are saved by armed americans...Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:
> 
> Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.
> 
> For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> 
> The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.
> 
> In the K-G article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.
> 
> [NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
> 
> =========*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Guy Tried To Rob A 7-Eleven. The Clerk Had A Gun.
> 
> A man attempted to rob a 7-Eleven in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Saturday, but was stopped by a clerk with a gun.
> 
> The man, identified as Davin McClenney, allegedly attempted the robbery at 1:06 a.m. but was shot by a 7-Eleven clerk who has not yet been publicly identified.
> 
> When police arrived at the scene, McClenney was already down with a bullet in his upper body. He was taken to the hospital, where he is currently in critical condition.
> 
> McClenney has a prior criminal record that includes three robberies, one of which was a home invasion in July 2016 that involved him reportedly taking numerous items from the homeowner at gunpoint. He was set to stand trial for the crime in August, but a judge granted his release from jail on bond in December.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *=================
> 6/2/17 teenage thug shot and killed
> 
> Chicago teen fatally shot by CCP-holder during attempted robbery
> 
> A 16-year-old boy is dead after he allegedly tried to rob a man outside of a bank in the Oak Park area of Chicago Saturday morning.
> 
> Police say it appears the teen, who was armed with a gun, approached the 24-year-old victim just after 11 a.m. intending to commit a robbery. However, the would-be victim was also armed and an exchange of gunfire occurred.
> 
> The teen, who was identified as Damon Phillips, was shot multiple times in the chest and fled the scene in a waiting car. He later showed up at an area hospital where he was pronounced dead about half an hour after the attempted robbery. It wasn’t immediately known how Phillips got to the hospital or whether there was a second suspect involved.
> 
> The victim, who authorities confirmed has a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon, was not injured.
> 
> No charges have been filed at this time, although the incident remains under investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5/110/17 Chicago car jackers shot
> 
> Alleged carjacker shot, wounded on SW Side
> 
> CHICAGO (WLS) --
> The victim of an apparent carjacking shot and wounded one of the two men who allegedly tried to steal his vehicle Wednesday afternoon on the city's Southwest Side, police said.
> 
> The carjacker was shot in the groin, and were nabbed by police outside an auto repair shop near 63rd and Whipple in the Chicago Lawn neighborhood.
> 
> The 29-year-old owner of the vehicle, who has a valid conceal and carry license, fired his weapon after the two men approached him outside his PT Cruiser near 62nd and Homan.
> 
> The carjacker who was hit, a 25-year-old man, was taken to Christ Medical Center where he was in good condition on Wednesday, police said.
> 
> A witness said that by the time the PT Cruiser pulled into the driveway of the auto repair shop, it was being followed by five to six police cars.
> 
> Surveillance video captured the moment when police approached the vehicle outside the auto repair shop, two people in the car with their hands up.
> 
> Police found blood in the backseat and a flat tire.
> 
> Both offenders were in custody Wednesday
> =========
> 
> 
> 1/23/17
> 
> Pizza Delivery Man Shot, Returns Fire
> 
> In southwest Philadelphia, a pizza deliveryman was ambushed and shot after he arrived at the location of a "customer."
> 
> 
> 
> The 36-year-old father of eight was delivering pizzas for Chester Pizza just after 7 p.m. Someone had called for a delivery and gave the address of an abandoned house in the 5300 block of Yocum Street
> 
> 
> He got out of his car and almost immediately found himself face-to-face with the armed suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> "A group of males came from the abandoned property towards him," said Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker. "One pulled a gun, pointed it at the pizza delivery driver's head (and) demanded money and pizzas."
> 
> Keyveat Fredericks struggled with the attackers and then made it to his car. "I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me," he described.
> 
> He was shot on his arm and hip.
> 
> But Fredericks didn't give up. He hid behind his car, unholstered his weapon, and shot back.*
> *=======*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have far more patience than I do
> 
> Vagabond63 is a troll.
> 
> and not even an American troll
> 
> he has few if any rights remaining in the UK and just wants to see Americans suffer too.
> 
> its simple penis envy and nothing more
> 
> no matter how long you argue he will never change his mind
Click to expand...

Says the dickless troll whose contribution so far has been nothing other than troll like


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



I listed just some of the stories I have collected from various news articles..........none of them are soldiers or cops...or is the woman walking her dog, confronted by the two men, one with a bat, a Navy SEAL in disguise?  You moron.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> No, you should train people
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, as for lawnmower deaths, if you Yanks can't even drive lawnmowers, do you really think you can be trusted with real weapons?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we should ban lawn mowers....they kill more people year than AR-15 rifles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, you should provide proper training to use lawnmowers. With guns you should register who owns a gun, require a minimum standard of competence and then iss
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Mac-7 said:
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> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And more.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *66-year-old jewelry store owner beaten during robbery, shoots 2 suspects, third in custody
> 
> Authorities say the trio – all of whom were armed with handguns – entered the business around 2:45, displayed their weapons and demanded cash and merchandise before they began beating and pistol whipping the 66-year-old store owner. At some point during the assault, the store owner was able to break free and retrieve his own gun.
> 
> The owner opened fire on the suspects and a gunfight ensued. During this time, Gomez and Mitchell were struck by gunfire. The owner, although he sustained injuries from the assault, was not injured by gunfire.
> 
> Soon after shots were fired, the trio ran from the store and fled the area in a vehicle that had been parked at a nearby carwash.
> 
> Gomez, who suffered multiple gunshot wounds, was dropped off at an area hospital, and Mitchell was found lying in the roadway at another location. Gomez, who has robbery charges pending, remains hospitalized, while Mitchell was pronounced dead at the scene where he was found.
> 
> Two days after the robbery, authorities received a tip that Harris was hiding out in San Antonio, leading the Lone Star Fugitive Task Force to conduct surveillance. The Task Force witnessed Harris leave a residence then get into a vehicle and drive away. A subsequent traffic stop was conducted, during which time Harris surrendered without incident.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *7/24/17
> 
> 72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’
> 
> After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.
> 
> “They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”
> 
> Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.
> 
> “I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.
> 
> Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.
> 
> Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.
> 
> 
> 7/18/17
> no shots fired....
> 17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder
> 
> On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.
> 
> The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.
> 
> The police provided updates on the The Wake Up Show on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.
> 
> Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.
> 
> She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.
> 
> Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"
> 
> The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
> =========================
> 
> 
> How much money, how many lives are saved by armed americans...Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:
> 
> Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.
> 
> For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).
> 
> It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
> 
> In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
> 
> The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.
> 
> In the K-G article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.
> 
> [NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]
> 
> How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
> 
> According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
> 
> So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
> 
> Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
> 
> I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
> 
> When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
> 
> Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
> 
> So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
> 
> =========*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This Guy Tried To Rob A 7-Eleven. The Clerk Had A Gun.
> 
> A man attempted to rob a 7-Eleven in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Saturday, but was stopped by a clerk with a gun.
> 
> The man, identified as Davin McClenney, allegedly attempted the robbery at 1:06 a.m. but was shot by a 7-Eleven clerk who has not yet been publicly identified.
> 
> When police arrived at the scene, McClenney was already down with a bullet in his upper body. He was taken to the hospital, where he is currently in critical condition.
> 
> McClenney has a prior criminal record that includes three robberies, one of which was a home invasion in July 2016 that involved him reportedly taking numerous items from the homeowner at gunpoint. He was set to stand trial for the crime in August, but a judge granted his release from jail on bond in December.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *=================
> 6/2/17 teenage thug shot and killed
> 
> Chicago teen fatally shot by CCP-holder during attempted robbery
> 
> A 16-year-old boy is dead after he allegedly tried to rob a man outside of a bank in the Oak Park area of Chicago Saturday morning.
> 
> Police say it appears the teen, who was armed with a gun, approached the 24-year-old victim just after 11 a.m. intending to commit a robbery. However, the would-be victim was also armed and an exchange of gunfire occurred.
> 
> The teen, who was identified as Damon Phillips, was shot multiple times in the chest and fled the scene in a waiting car. He later showed up at an area hospital where he was pronounced dead about half an hour after the attempted robbery. It wasn’t immediately known how Phillips got to the hospital or whether there was a second suspect involved.
> 
> The victim, who authorities confirmed has a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon, was not injured.
> 
> No charges have been filed at this time, although the incident remains under investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5/110/17 Chicago car jackers shot
> 
> Alleged carjacker shot, wounded on SW Side
> 
> CHICAGO (WLS) --
> The victim of an apparent carjacking shot and wounded one of the two men who allegedly tried to steal his vehicle Wednesday afternoon on the city's Southwest Side, police said.
> 
> The carjacker was shot in the groin, and were nabbed by police outside an auto repair shop near 63rd and Whipple in the Chicago Lawn neighborhood.
> 
> The 29-year-old owner of the vehicle, who has a valid conceal and carry license, fired his weapon after the two men approached him outside his PT Cruiser near 62nd and Homan.
> 
> The carjacker who was hit, a 25-year-old man, was taken to Christ Medical Center where he was in good condition on Wednesday, police said.
> 
> A witness said that by the time the PT Cruiser pulled into the driveway of the auto repair shop, it was being followed by five to six police cars.
> 
> Surveillance video captured the moment when police approached the vehicle outside the auto repair shop, two people in the car with their hands up.
> 
> Police found blood in the backseat and a flat tire.
> 
> Both offenders were in custody Wednesday
> =========
> 
> 
> 1/23/17
> 
> Pizza Delivery Man Shot, Returns Fire
> 
> In southwest Philadelphia, a pizza deliveryman was ambushed and shot after he arrived at the location of a "customer."
> 
> 
> 
> The 36-year-old father of eight was delivering pizzas for Chester Pizza just after 7 p.m. Someone had called for a delivery and gave the address of an abandoned house in the 5300 block of Yocum Street
> 
> 
> He got out of his car and almost immediately found himself face-to-face with the armed suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> "A group of males came from the abandoned property towards him," said Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker. "One pulled a gun, pointed it at the pizza delivery driver's head (and) demanded money and pizzas."
> 
> Keyveat Fredericks struggled with the attackers and then made it to his car. "I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me," he described.
> 
> He was shot on his arm and hip.
> 
> But Fredericks didn't give up. He hid behind his car, unholstered his weapon, and shot back.*
> *=======*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have far more patience than I do
> 
> Vagabond63 is a troll.
> 
> and not even an American troll
> 
> he has few if any rights remaining in the UK and just wants to see Americans suffer too.
> 
> its simple penis envy and nothing more
> 
> no matter how long you argue he will never change his mind
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Says the dickless troll whose contribution so far has been nothing other than troll like
Click to expand...



Yes....registration......so when the anti-gun extremists the power they can ban and confiscate them.....and training requirements which will become so burdensome adn filled with taxes, fees and red tape, only the rich, famous and politically connected will have access to guns...

No thanks.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> HenryBHough said:
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> 
> 
> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron.....your murder rate was low when you had guns...due to your history, your culture, traditions  and people......you didn't need to ban guns because your murder rate was low to begin with...
> 
> Now....you have imported violent,3rd world males, and they are the ones driving your drug crime...because they don't care about your history, your culture, your traditions and they are not afraid of your police....
Click to expand...

Doesn't alter the fact that after handguns were banned gun crime in the UK plummeted by around 75%. gun control worked until the last decade when Right wing Conservative governments cut police and social services in the name of ideological austerity.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> Prove it.
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> JoeB131 said:
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> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I listed just some of the stories I have collected from various news articles..........none of them are soldiers or cops...or is the woman walking her dog, confronted by the two men, one with a bat, a Navy SEAL in disguise?  You moron.
Click to expand...

Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where  gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
Oh, that church shooting rings a bell, wasn't that plumber also a certified NRA firearms instructor, who had been using guns of all types since he was 9? Also hadn't he been trained on where to find the weak spots in body armour, several months before the incident? OKhe may not have been ex police or military, but he was obviously not an average member of the public, despite the hype.


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## Vagabond63

oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


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> HenryBHough said:
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> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron.....your murder rate was low when you had guns...due to your history, your culture, traditions  and people......you didn't need to ban guns because your murder rate was low to begin with...
> 
> Now....you have imported violent,3rd world males, and they are the ones driving your drug crime...because they don't care about your history, your culture, your traditions and they are not afraid of your police....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doesn't alter the fact that after handguns were banned gun crime in the UK plummeted by around 75%. gun control worked until the last decade when Right wing Conservative governments cut police and social services in the name of ideological austerity.
Click to expand...



No, actually, it didn't....in fact, gun crime spiked for the 1st 10 years of the ban, and then returned to the same level.......so it had no effect on gun crime, since criminals drive gun crime and they were never that violent before.....

That is changing now...


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Prove it.
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> JoeB131 said:
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> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> 
> I listed just some of the stories I have collected from various news articles..........none of them are soldiers or cops...or is the woman walking her dog, confronted by the two men, one with a bat, a Navy SEAL in disguise?  You moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where  gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
> Oh, that church shooting rings a bell, wasn't that plumber also a certified NRA firearms instructor, who had been using guns of all types since he was 9? Also hadn't he been trained on where to find the weak spots in body armour, several months before the incident? OKhe may not have been ex police or military, but he was obviously not an average member of the public, despite the hype.
Click to expand...



Yes...he was a civilian who taught people how to shoot, he wasn't in the military or the police, he was a plumber by profession.  Any other law abiding citizen can become a shooting instructor in our country, it doesn't take special permission from the government and it doesn't take previous experience in the police or military.......So you just help out when you point out he was a civilian who owned and guns and helped others learn to shoot them...

And in the middle of that violent attack, with no police or military training, he saved 26 lives........he stopped the attacker from murdering 26 people.  

And don't try to lie.....we know he was the reason the attacker stopped murdering the wounded because one of the wounded told everyone the killer stopped murdering people when someone called out to him from outside, and he left........


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.




That 94% number comes from looking at actual mass public shootings where the U.S. citizen had their legal gun with them at the time of the attack.....which is very rare because most public places are gun free zones which means they can't usually carry their guns with them into those places...

And in those mass public shootings, armed civilians...not Navy SEALS, not Police SWAT members stop mass public shooters or limit the deaths and injuries 94% of the time....

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

*Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.*
*
Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.

BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says

Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------
*
*The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.*


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


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> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron.....your murder rate was low when you had guns...due to your history, your culture, traditions  and people......you didn't need to ban guns because your murder rate was low to begin with...
> 
> Now....you have imported violent,3rd world males, and they are the ones driving your drug crime...because they don't care about your history, your culture, your traditions and they are not afraid of your police....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doesn't alter the fact that after handguns were banned gun crime in the UK plummeted by around 75%. gun control worked until the last decade when Right wing Conservative governments cut police and social services in the name of ideological austerity.
Click to expand...



They cut money because you can't afford your welfare state.....you can't provide for your own national defense, you can't float a ship outside of your coastal waters, you can't develop new miracle drugs or medical technology, and if not for Americans with guns, you would be speaking Russian......


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
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> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I listed just some of the stories I have collected from various news articles..........none of them are soldiers or cops...or is the woman walking her dog, confronted by the two men, one with a bat, a Navy SEAL in disguise?  You moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where  gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
> Oh, that church shooting rings a bell, wasn't that plumber also a certified NRA firearms instructor, who had been using guns of all types since he was 9? Also hadn't he been trained on where to find the weak spots in body armour, several months before the incident? OKhe may not have been ex police or military, but he was obviously not an average member of the public, despite the hype.
Click to expand...



Accidental death of children by gun.....and the majority of these children die in homes with criminals in them who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place....

Over 70 million children in the U.S....over 600 million guns in private hands.....over 18.6 million people who can legally carry guns for self defense...

Total number of accidental deaths of children with guns....in 2018....?   54.  Motor vehicle deaths....2,456.

Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

*2018......

Guns......54*

Motor vehicle..... 2,456



*Total Cars:  1,261

*


Suffocation:  1,162

*Drowning: 698

Poisoning:  66

Traffic: 2,456

Guns: 54



Under age drinking:*

Underage Drinking-Why Do Adolescents  Drink, What Are the Risks, and How Can Underage Drinking Be Prevented?

Each year, approximately 5,000 young people under the age of 21 die as a result of underage drinking; this includes about 1,900 deaths from motor vehicle crashes, 1,600 as a result of homicides, 300 from suicide, as well as hundreds from other injuries such as falls, burns, and drownings (1–5).


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.




Hey....dipstick....

Watch this video, and learn why American women have a choice to not be victims.......British women are at the mercy of men...

Now....be careful....as a European who has been disarmed.....and bows and scrapes to your government...this video might frighten you.....but it is only a video.....you can watch it with the lights on and your comfort animal next to you....this American woman might be able to get you over your fear of normal people who don't have to be afraid of criminals and a rogue government.....


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.




Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....

She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...


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## Mac-7

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.


Yes you would

just as you would find swimming pools designed for exercis3 and recreation being the instrument of death for children and other unfortunates

or people killed by accident in automobiles and airplanes


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


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> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I listed just some of the stories I have collected from various news articles..........none of them are soldiers or cops...or is the woman walking her dog, confronted by the two men, one with a bat, a Navy SEAL in disguise?  You moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where  gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
> Oh, that church shooting rings a bell, wasn't that plumber also a certified NRA firearms instructor, who had been using guns of all types since he was 9? Also hadn't he been trained on where to find the weak spots in body armour, several months before the incident? OKhe may not have been ex police or military, but he was obviously not an average member of the public, despite the hype.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental death of children by gun.....and the majority of these children die in homes with criminals in them who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place....
> 
> Over 70 million children in the U.S....over 600 million guns in private hands.....over 18.6 million people who can legally carry guns for self defense...
> 
> Total number of accidental deaths of children with guns....in 2018....?   54.  Motor vehicle deaths....2,456.
> 
> Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
> 
> *2018......
> 
> Guns......54*
> 
> Motor vehicle..... 2,456
> 
> 
> 
> *Total Cars:  1,261*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suffocation:  1,162
> 
> *Drowning: 698
> 
> Poisoning:  66
> 
> Traffic: 2,456
> 
> Guns: 54
> 
> 
> 
> Under age drinking:*
> 
> Underage Drinking-Why Do Adolescents  Drink, What Are the Risks, and How Can Underage Drinking Be Prevented?
> 
> Each year, approximately 5,000 young people under the age of 21 die as a result of underage drinking; this includes about 1,900 deaths from motor vehicle crashes, 1,600 as a result of homicides, 300 from suicide, as well as hundreds from other injuries such as falls, burns, and drownings (1–5).
Click to expand...

1600 homicides, how many of those do you think involved guns, 300 suicides, how many involved guns?


Mac-7 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you would
> 
> just as you would find swimming pools designed for exercis3 and recreation being the instrument of death for children and other unfortunates
> 
> or people killed by accident in automobiles and airplanes
Click to expand...

Swimming pools are not specifically designed to kill, guns are.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
Click to expand...

Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I listed just some of the stories I have collected from various news articles..........none of them are soldiers or cops...or is the woman walking her dog, confronted by the two men, one with a bat, a Navy SEAL in disguise?  You moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where  gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
> Oh, that church shooting rings a bell, wasn't that plumber also a certified NRA firearms instructor, who had been using guns of all types since he was 9? Also hadn't he been trained on where to find the weak spots in body armour, several months before the incident? OKhe may not have been ex police or military, but he was obviously not an average member of the public, despite the hype.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental death of children by gun.....and the majority of these children die in homes with criminals in them who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place....
> 
> Over 70 million children in the U.S....over 600 million guns in private hands.....over 18.6 million people who can legally carry guns for self defense...
> 
> Total number of accidental deaths of children with guns....in 2018....?   54.  Motor vehicle deaths....2,456.
> 
> Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
> 
> *2018......
> 
> Guns......54*
> 
> Motor vehicle..... 2,456
> 
> 
> 
> *Total Cars:  1,261*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suffocation:  1,162
> 
> *Drowning: 698
> 
> Poisoning:  66
> 
> Traffic: 2,456
> 
> Guns: 54
> 
> 
> 
> Under age drinking:*
> 
> Underage Drinking-Why Do Adolescents  Drink, What Are the Risks, and How Can Underage Drinking Be Prevented?
> 
> Each year, approximately 5,000 young people under the age of 21 die as a result of underage drinking; this includes about 1,900 deaths from motor vehicle crashes, 1,600 as a result of homicides, 300 from suicide, as well as hundreds from other injuries such as falls, burns, and drownings (1–5).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1600 homicides, how many of those do you think involved guns, 300 suicides, how many involved guns?
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes you would
> 
> just as you would find swimming pools designed for exercis3 and recreation being the instrument of death for children and other unfortunates
> 
> or people killed by accident in automobiles and airplanes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Swimming pools are not specifically designed to kill, guns are.
Click to expand...



If someone commits suicide what difference does it make if they use a gun or a rope....hanging is a popular method and countries with extreme gun control, like Japan, China and South Korea have higher suicide rates and they only allow criminals and cops to have guns.  Even several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S.......so what is your point?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
Click to expand...



It does for the women who have a gun to stop the rapist........just ask them how they feel when they aren't raped because they used a gun to stop it...versus the women who didn't have a gun to stop the rape....think there will be a difference in the reaction?

*However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.*
*
I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes, "Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."
*
*The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.*





__





						Guns Effective Defense Against Rape
					

Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance.



					www.tysknews.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
Click to expand...



O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...

What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?

Please, enlighten us....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must have been a mass shooting, we are getting more of his NRA spooge.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK does not have a 2nd Amendment or the NRA to protect gun owner rights
> 
> My guess is most of the shooting in GB are by the hands of minorities just as it is here in cities like chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have a written constitution, it's all tradition and common law. Point about written constitutions is they can be amended and ammendments can be repealed aor replaced. Your guess is a good one. Most shootings in the UK are drug gang related. We don't have "normal" people shooting up schools, churches, etc. Mainly because guns are tightly controlled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had a total of 10 mass public shootings in 2019.....in a country of 320 million people...........and when your nuts decide to murder people in mass public shootings, your death toll will be much higher, since your police are mostly unarmed..........meanwhile, armed Americans, when they are allowed to have their weapons with them, are 94% successful at stopping these attackers.......as in France when their nuts murdered people at Charlie Hebdo, and at the Rock concert, your numbers will be really bad.....
> 
> And so far, you have been lucky...any one of the following could have been a mass public shooting.....except for luck...not gun control....
> 
> 5/4/18  2 boys planning attack, steal girlfriend's dad's guns
> 
> Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears
> 
> *Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.*
> 
> *---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .4/6/18
> 
> Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed
> 
> A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.
> 
> Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.
> 
> The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.
> 
> Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
> =======
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the update, the original is below..
> 
> Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........
> 
> I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right?  Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> 
> British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack :: Guns.com
> 
> Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.
> Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.
> As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.
> According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.
> Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.
> The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.
> In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”
> He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.
> ====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'
> 
> 15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.
> =======
> 
> 
> 'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside
> 
> Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.
> 
> Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.
> 
> The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.
> 
> He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.
> 
> 
> 
> Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester
> 
> Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.*
> 
> *Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.*
> 
> 
> The majority of our shootings are also drug gang related, or simply criminal related, and they occur almost entirely in tiny, multi-block areas of our democrat party controlled cities....because it is their policies that keep releasing repeat, known, violent criminals from jail and prison over and over again.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And again, manipulating the facts by using the most narrow definition of a mass public shooting, what a surprise. Using a more realistic approach when an individual opens fire on innocent people regardless of how many need to be killed to count, we find that as of this July there have been over 300 such shootings.
> Oh, and as for that silly list of nonevents. Had they happened in the US they would probably all have succeeded, given how easy it is to get a gun over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in my post #376 that knives are used to murder more people every single year in America than all of our mass public shooters since 1982.......
> 
> 
> And again, when Americans can carry their legal guns into public spaces, they have a 94% stopping rate on mass public shooters .......
> 
> Your people won't be so lucky...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hang on, you are using raw figures. By your rules, you don't count criminal on criminal attacks, or mass stabbings when less than 4 people are killed. Your second point is pure fantasy. The only times a "good guy with a gun" stopped any form of mass killing, they happened to be either ex military or ex police, and had been trained specifically to deal with such a situation in the past. Normal people, armed or not tend to run, or hide from active shooters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....that is wrong.
> 
> You are mixing mass public shootings with regular crime.
> 
> When normal people have their guns in the middle of a mass public shooting, they are 94% successful at stopping the attack or limiting the deaths and injuries.
> 
> The number you are mixing up is the 1.1 million times a year normal people use their guns for common rapists, robbers and murderers....from the Centers for Disease control....
> 
> Two different categories of crime and responses....
> 
> .....we are talking mass public shootings....and from the examples, they are not all ex anything......you are lying...
> 
> Again....normal people have a 94% success rate......using guns is not that difficult.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I listed just some of the stories I have collected from various news articles..........none of them are soldiers or cops...or is the woman walking her dog, confronted by the two men, one with a bat, a Navy SEAL in disguise?  You moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I suspect if I bothered to look, I'd find lots of stories where  gun nuts have shot innocent people by mistake or left their guns lying around to be found by their kids who then blow their brains out.
> Oh, that church shooting rings a bell, wasn't that plumber also a certified NRA firearms instructor, who had been using guns of all types since he was 9? Also hadn't he been trained on where to find the weak spots in body armour, several months before the incident? OKhe may not have been ex police or military, but he was obviously not an average member of the public, despite the hype.
Click to expand...



Here....an average U.S. woman who can teach you about guns....and how to carry them safely for self defense....she is not a cop, a SWAT team member, a Navy SEAL.  She is an average American able to exercise the Right to protect herself and her family from violent criminals and joe biden voters who have been burning, looting, beating and murdering Americans in democrat party controlled cities over here.....


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
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> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It does for the women who have a gun to stop the rapist........just ask them how they feel when they aren't raped because they used a gun to stop it...versus the women who didn't have a gun to stop the rape....think there will be a difference in the reaction?
> 
> *However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.*
> 
> *I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.
> 
> First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.
> 
> Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).
> 
> Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.
> 
> Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes, "Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."*
> 
> *The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
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> 
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> 
> 
> Guns Effective Defense Against Rape
> 
> 
> Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> www.tysknews.com
Click to expand...

Priceless! An article by Robert J Woolley, who was fired by his university for


2aguy said:


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> It's all fake news.
> 
> There are no shootings in The UK.
> 
> You see, they have very strict gun control laws like the left wants here so there won't be any shootings, ever.
> 
> So it HAS to be fake news!  Ask Gropey Joey.......but don't ask Spamela.  She has an obvious "tell".  But Joey?  no "tell" because he realy has been on auto-pilot for a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are shootings in the UK, 99.9% of them are gangster on gangster affairs. We just don't have the sort of gun massacres you have in the US in churches schools, bars, concerts etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of gun crime in the U.S. is gang on gang, you twit.   Which means that normal people who own and carry guns are not the problem.
> 
> Again.....our problem comes directly from one political party, the democrat party.....their policies create our gun crime problem in the cities they control.
> 
> And I keep having to show you that in Britain, they have professional armed guards at Jewish schools and Synagogues to prevent your immigrant communities from murdering Jewish people.  Armed guards.....with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is pure unadulterated drivel,. There are so many sites that cite so many instances of law abiding gun owners shooting and killing each other and their families. Everyone cited was considered normal until they pulled their legal guns and started firing. America, you have a gun problem, the first step towards a cure is to admit that the problem exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.....actual research shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....
> 
> The Criminology of Firearms
> *In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.*
> 
> *Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."
> 
> Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.
> 
> While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
> ----*
> Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing
> 
> *Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *
> 
> *That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
> 
> 
> 
> (17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)
> 
> 
> 
> Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)
> 
> Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And of course there are those who refuse to admit that the problem exists, despite the body count, and make up fantasies to make them feel good. They re-enforce their fantasies by cherry picking whatever information they can find. Meanwhile in the real world the rest of us look on sadly, then shake our heads and get on with our gun free lives, secure in the knowledge that gun control makes us safer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No cherry picking, only facts and truth.   You hate the idea that normal people own and carry guns........in your control freak mind that is something that drives you nuts.....meanwhile, 18.6 million Americans carry guns for self defense and our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%....something you keep telling us can't happen.
> 
> Britain never had the violence level that America has....even when you were allowed to own guns...and don't tell us that the few hunting shotguns that the wealthy and connected can own means you are allowed to own guns.....
> 
> Meanwhile, both private and government researchers here in the U.S. have shown that Americans use their legal guns likely over a million times a year to save lives from violent criminals.........that drives your control freak mind crazy.
> 
> Like Britain...our violent crime is isolated to tiny areas in our democrat party controlled cities.....tiny areas, a few blocks where criminal gangs shoot each other over drug turf, personal insults and lack of self control....and this is not due to normal people who own and carry guns for self defense, sport, and hunting.......
> 
> You are the one who is in denial...you think that because your culture and society was very non-violent in the past, that that dictates that it will be non-violent in the future, and that non-violent past means that your gun control laws work.
> 
> You are delusional.  You have imported violent 3rd world males who don't care about your culture, your traditions, and they do not fear your police.  They are driving violent crime in your country and they are importing guns to do it....your gun control laws mean nothing to them......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah, blah blah, the usual cut and paste BS. Just for fun, I looked up the last time our murder rate was anything close that of the USA, it was in 1344. Medieval England, when everyone had weapons from daggers to handguns (well hand cannons). Also our gun murder and gun crime rate dropped about the same level as the USA when we banned handguns. Ooh, seems gun control works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Moron.....your murder rate was low when you had guns...due to your history, your culture, traditions  and people......you didn't need to ban guns because your murder rate was low to begin with...
> 
> Now....you have imported violent,3rd world males, and they are the ones driving your drug crime...because they don't care about your history, your culture, your traditions and they are not afraid of your police....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doesn't alter the fact that after handguns were banned gun crime in the UK plummeted by around 75%. gun control worked until the last decade when Right wing Conservative governments cut police and social services in the name of ideological austerity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They cut money because you can't afford your welfare state.....you can't provide for your own national defense, you can't float a ship outside of your coastal waters, you can't develop new miracle drugs or medical technology, and if not for Americans with guns, you would be speaking Russian......
Click to expand...

Blah, blah, bullshit.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
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> 
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> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
Click to expand...

Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


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> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
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> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.
Click to expand...


Again......the actual research shows you are wrong......women who are attacked in public places by strangers stand a better chance of not getting raped if they have a gun for self defense.

Krav Maga is crap.....when it comes to a woman vs. a violent criminal......I have been involved in the martial arts my entire life, and a woman vs. a man is at an extreme disadvantage from the start, and something tells me the average woman is not going to train like a Spartan to make Krav Maga effective.  

A gun takes very little training and allows a woman of any size to deal with one man or more than one man even if she is smaller and weaker....


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


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> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
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> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.
Click to expand...



You did not answer the question.....

Would you prefer that woman is raped, possibly murdered as well.....or that she use a gun to save herself?


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


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> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
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> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.
Click to expand...



Even in a case where the woman is stabbed, several times, the advantage a gun gives her is immense....it takes 7-12 pounds of finger pressure and a tiny hole positioned over the body of a man the size of The Rock for her to be able to put him down or drive him off......Krav Maga and just about any other empty hand martial art is not going to allow that woman to survive, especially against more than one attacker...

Notice.....this attack was stopped without one shot fired...tell me that this woman could survive this using Krav Maga........

Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them

LANCASTER, Ohio - It happened along a walking path in Lancaster.

Dinah Burns is licensed to carry a concealed gun, but she'd only recently started taking her weapon while walking her dog.

Based on what happened, it looks like she'll make a point of carrying from now on.

"I think if they'd gotten any closer, I probably would have fired,” said Burns.

It was Monday when Burns was on a footpath near Sanderson Elementary School.

"Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said 'You're coming with us'."

The men weren't deterred by Dinah's dog Gracie.

"I said, 'Well, what do you want?,' and as I was saying that I reached in to my pocket and slipped my gun out, slipped the safety off as I pulled it out. As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, 'I have this and I'm not afraid to use it.'"

The men took off and so far have eluded police. Dinah posted about the incident on Facebook to alert friends and neighbors, to criticism by some.

"Most of the males' opinion was, 'Why didn't you shoot them?'"

Easy to second-guess a decision made under pressure, based on her concealed carry training, and police agree.

"To get out of a situation, back out, get out of it as much as you can without having to discharge your firearm."

"I will say it's a good thing to go from a place of danger to a place of safety, however you get that done,” said Sgt. Matt Chambers, Lancaster Police.

"Very thankful that it turned out the way it did, and hope it doesn't happen again, but I will be prepared."


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


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> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
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> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.
Click to expand...



And these women...

'I had to take care of things': Gun-wielding Texas mother scares off intruder
The family does not want to be identified, but wanted to share the story in hope that awareness can help in similar situations.

The mother was at home with the family's 3-month-old daughter Thursday night. Her husband was out of town working, but was coming home Friday to celebrate the first Christmas with their daughter.

After tossing and turning in bed for a while, the mother was not able to fall asleep and went to the living room around 11:30 p.m.

About an hour later, she heard the home alarm beep and her back door open.

Her instinct kicked in.

"I froze for a second and then I realized I needed to spring into action, I mean, I had my baby in the house. I was alone. My husband was away on business, so I had to take care of things," she said.

She grabbed a gun and went towards the back door, where she found a man standing in her kitchen.

She yelled at the man while pointing the gun at him, and her dog ran towards him, scaring him out of the back door.

She locked the door and called 911.

---

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.
DC GUN-FREE ZONES CAUSE CONFUSION OVER LEGALITY OF GUN CARRY EVEN WITH A PERMIT

Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.

After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.

Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.

May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.
Click to expand...



Krav Maga would not have saved this woman...

Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.

About 4:05 p.m. Oct. 5, the 25-year-old man was shot in the chest when he stabbed the 25-year-old woman multiple times in the 4000 block of West 21st Street, Chicago Police said.

The woman was taken in serious condition to Mount Sinai Hospital, and the man was pronounced dead at the scene at 4:48 p.m., authorities said.

The Cook County medical examiner’s office identified him as Pleasure Cardell Singleton Jr.

The stabbing was believed to be a domestic incident, police said, but the nature of the relationship between the two wasn’t released.
======

17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder

On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.

The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.

The police provided updates on the _The Wake Up Show_ on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.

Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.

She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.

Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"

The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
=========================


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.
Click to expand...



Tell us that Krav Maga would have saved this woman...



> Woman Kills One of Three Home Invasion Suspects in Gun Battle
> 
> *On Friday, a woman in Gwinnett County, Georgia, opened fire on three home invasion suspects who woke her from sleep by kicking in her door around 4 a.m.*
> One of the three home invasion suspects was killed during the exchange of fire. The other two fled the scene.
> 
> According to WSBTV, the woman and a man were in bed when they heard the sound of people kicking their way into the home. The woman grabbed her gun and confronted the invasion suspects, exchanging gunfire with at least one of them. Police said 28-year-old Antonia Leeks was shot and killed in the gun battle.
> 
> The woman owns a restaurant, and police believe this drew attention to her and ultimately led to the home invasion/attempted robbery. Gwinnett County police Cpl. Deon Washington said, “This is a very harrowing experience for anyone to endure. She’s shaken. It’s a very difficult experience for anyone to deal with.”


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh, where do you get this 94% you keep pulling out of your hat, more cut and paste BS on it's way, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the odds of this  woman being dragged into a park to be raped and murdered......is a lot less than for a woman living in Britain....watch the video and find out why.....
> 
> She is not a soldier, she is not Navy SEAL, she is not a SWAT member....just a normal American woman.........who can fight back against criminal attack...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wonder why you constantly invoke Special Forces, I never do. Given the rape statistics per capita for UK and US are about the same, having a gun seems to make no difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> O.K......let's try this question, and see if you will answer...
> 
> What would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she uses a gun to stop the rape?
> 
> Please, enlighten us....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given that in most cases the victim know her attacker, and that in cases where she doesn't, the attack is almost always a surprise blitz attack from behind, a gun is useless to prevent an attack. Over here, more and more women are turning to self defence classes like Krav Maga, which teach situational awareness and how to deal with attacks from behind and dealing with armed attackers. Our women  don't need guns to defend themselves.
Click to expand...



And again....would it have been better if these women had been raped, possibly murdered...or that they used a gun to save themselves.....?  Where was the bum rush that prevented them from using their guns?



> Mom-to-be shoots intruder with her pink pistol
> 
> A man is recovering from a gunshot wound after he broke into a Birmingham home early Friday morning and came face-to-face with a pregnant woman who was ready to protect herself and her baby.
> 
> Marquita Turner said she heard the suspect remove the air conditioning unit from a side window around 2:20 a.m. Once the unit was out, the suspect climbed right inside, but he likely wasn’t expecting to meet Turner with her pink Taurus Millennium 9mm.
> 
> “I grabbed my gun when I woke up. And I walked out of the door and I saw them, the guy in the hallway … he was kind of close to me so I shot and he fell,” Turner told reporters with alocal NBC affiliate.
> 
> Turner said she fired two or three rounds and struck the intruder once, then turned on the lights and called the police. Once they arrived, the suspect was taken to the hospital for treatment. He was expected to survive.
> 
> Turner, who is currently five months pregnant, said she purchased her gun two years ago for protection, but she’s never been to the range or otherwise had any type of training or target practice. Still, she’s glad she had the means to protect herself when she needed to. She said she doesn’t know what could have happened had she not be able to protect herself and her unborn baby.



===============
With a Gun to her Head, This Woman Knew How to Level the Playing Field (and her assailant)

Police in Glendale, AZ said it was in the early morning hours on Monday when 23-year-old Carol Miracle stopped in at a Circle K convenience store at 59th Avenue and Camelback Road and encountered a violent armed robber.

When police responded to a call of shots fired at approximately 1 a.m., witnesses at the scene said they saw 27-year-old Frank Taylor holding a gun to Carol’s head in an apparent armed robbery.
*But even with a gun to her head, the young woman knew how to level the playing field with her assailant, and was well equipped to do so.*

As Taylor held the barrel to her skull, Carol reached for her own gun holstered at her hip. She drew her weapon and took aim, firing one shot to end the attack.

Taylor was transported to a nearby hospital where he died from his injuries.

Police said Carol also called 9-1-1 to report the shooting from her home, which is in walking distance from the convenience store, and told police she was in fear for her life.


----------



## kjamer

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
Click to expand...


Sorry Foreigner Comrade.  Our Pravda media only covers if a cop shoots a thug.   Whenever a dumbocrat shoots a black child in Chitcago, the DNCmedia will never cover it.


----------



## 2aguy

Gunshots at 12:35 pm in Britain.....


*A road has been sealed off after a man was shot in broad daylight near a Sikh Temple in Birmingham. The man was found injured at the junction of a main road after gunfire was heard at around 12.35pm this afternoon. His situation is feared to be critical, with the ambulance service confirming critical care paramedics were deployed to the scene.*


Read more: Road outside Sikh Temple sealed off after 'reports of gunfire'


----------



## 2aguy

This American woman, unlike British women, has the choice to protect herself from rapists, murderers and thieves......big difference...

Again.....which is better?

A woman is raped and possibly murdered.......or.....she uses her legal gun to stop the rape and possible murder....I notice that none of the British, anti-gun extremists have decided to answer that question....


----------



## 2aguy

Okay Tommy and the other guy.......

You have yet to answer this question...let's try again...

Is it better that the woman in this is brutally raped and murdered....or is it better that she have the ability to use the revolver in the video to stop her rape and murder.....?


----------



## 2aguy

Another question for our British, anti-gun, extremist posters......

If you knew a woman who stopped a rape with her legal gun.....and you had the ability to go back in time, and take that gun away from her before the rape...would you?


----------



## 2aguy

Perusing the British news orgs....I come across stories of British women dragged off of running trails, and streets and being raped......

Do you think those unarmed British women would have fared better if they were like this American woman?


----------



## 2aguy

Man gunned down Friday night in Gun free Britain....

*Devastated relatives have paid tribute to a young dad killed in the street in Birmingham’s second fatal shooting in less than a week. Murtaza Nazir, 26, was shot just before 8pm on Friday night in the suburb of Stechford – believed to be just one road away from his home. Family members said today they had been left ‘shattered’ and ‘heartbroken’ by the loss of their ‘friend and protector’.*


Read more: 'Heartbroken' family pays tribute to young dad shot dead in street

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/









						'Heartbroken' family pays tribute to young dad shot dead in street
					

‘Life as we knew it will never be the same. Our lives shattered and hearts broken.'




					metro.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....

And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?

*The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*


Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/









						Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
					

One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## Vagabond63

Ah, the gun porn show has finished I see. Been a bit busy of late dealing with Spanish bureaucracy. Anyway to begin.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> No, actually, it didn't....in fact, gun crime spiked for the 1st 10 years of the ban, and then returned to the same level.......so it had no effect on gun crime, since criminals drive gun crime and they were never that violent before.....
> 
> That is changing now...



Not actually accurate. The method of recording offenses involving “guns” included possession of child’s toys, air guns, replicas and antiques in a public place. Once this glitch in recording was resolved, actual gun crime fell in reality, except in 2007, when there was a genuine spike due to increased gang wars in many major cities. Once the police cracked down the downward trend continued. Yes gun crime is on the increase at the moment, due mainly to the ineptitude and ideologically driven and totally unnecessary austerity policies of successive Right wing governments who defunded our police (22000 officers lost their jobs) and social programs that helped to prevent young people turning to drugs and crime.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> Yes...he was a civilian who taught people how to shoot, he wasn't in the military or the police, he was a plumber by profession. Any other law abiding citizen can become a shooting instructor in our country, it doesn't take special permission from the government and it doesn't take previous experience in the police or military.......So you just help out when you point out he was a civilian who owned and guns and helped others learn to shoot them...



Perhaps, but he was the exception that proves the rule. He acted tactically as if he’d rehearsed this scenario in his head or actually been trained to act (probably by ex-military or police instructors) that way at the ranges he frequented since he was 9 years old. He was his own “Rambo-esque” hero in his head and got the chance to act out his fantasies in real life. Most normal people would have called the police and if they owned guns, would just have got them ready in case the gunman came their way to defend themselves, not actively gone out looking for trouble.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> That 94% number comes from looking at actual mass public shootings where the U.S. citizen had their legal gun with them at the time of the attack.....which is very rare because most public places are gun free zones which means they can't usually carry their guns with them into those places...



No, that comes from manipulating data and extrapolating as is apparently the norm for the gun nut lobby. 33 instances suddenly become a nationwide 94% figure, really? Pull the other one… Oh, I noted the FBI in brackets in your link, except the FBI never stated that normal citizens stop mass shootings 94% of the time, this was the opinion of the article writer based on extrapolating from 33 incidents.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> Accidental death of children by gun.....and the majority of these children die in homes with criminals in them who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place....



This total BS doesn’t merit any response.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> …this American woman might be able to get you over your fear of normal people who don't have to be afraid of criminals and a rogue government.....



Stavroula Avarmidis? A “normal” woman? Trained by the Massachusetts Police and the NRA? Who now makes money out of preying on women’s fears and insecurities in order to sell guns.

And there we have it, the gun nut lobby preys on the fear and insecurity of normal Americans. Americans who end up owning guns for “self-defense” are basically afraid of their own shadows, or so lacking in self-confidence, they need guns as crutches.

Gun crazies (and the hopefully soon to be defunct NRA) peddle fear pills; “the only way you can stay safe is to carry a gun at all times, from walking down the street to hiking a backwoods trail, or going to a party, carry a gun, sleep with it, masturbate with it, the gun is your only hope!” Throw in Stavroula Avramidis as a bit of gun porn, (sex sells, don’t you know) and there you have the basic sales pitch from the NRA and other gun crazies’ groups; “Don’t forget the Guv-mint…might turn tyrannical at any moment, so you’ll need your .38 special to fight off those nasty Predator drones with their Hellfire missiles, or their M1 Abrams tanks”.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> Again......the actual research shows you are wrong......women who are attacked in public places by strangers stand a better chance of not getting raped if they have a gun for self defense.



That would be the research carried out by someone fired by their university for sexual assault….OK.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> Krav Maga is crap.....when it comes to a woman vs. a violent criminal......I have been involved in the martial arts my entire life, and a woman vs. a man is at an extreme disadvantage from the start, and something tells me the average woman is not going to train like a Spartan to make Krav Maga effective.



*sigh* Krav Maga is crap? Tell that to the IDF, I’m sure the Israeli military would be aghast and change their training to Kung Fu immediately! Ever been in a street fight? I’ve seen martial artists that normally prance around in their pajamas to set rules of engagement get creamed by untrained street thugs who use whatever means necessary to beat the sh*t out of an opponent. Krav Maga is one of many self defence methods that emphasise, amongst other things, situational awareness, use of whatever items at hand that can be used as weapons and a few key moves that can disable an attacker long enough for the attack victim to escape; you don’t need years of training and multi coloured belts. Real life is not Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris.

Oh, as for your other examples, Dinah Burns was 62, granted the American pervo-sphere has many depraved people but I don’t think rapists go around with baseball bats (which, incidentally, come highly recommended as home defence weapons). Maybe American women should be trained to lock their doors and windows if home alone, and maybe some business owners should invest in composite doors that can’t be kicked in. I could go on but I suspect that the fact that there are other, better ways of being secure would fall on deaf ears when GUNZ!!! are concerned. Oh, another fun fact, it appears that 47% of concealed carry permit holders rarely if ever carry their guns when out and about. Woman’s Gun vs. Two Kidnappers: Three Concealed Carry Tips You Should Know - Laissez Faire


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, the gun porn show has finished I see. Been a bit busy of late dealing with Spanish bureaucracy. Anyway to begin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually, it didn't....in fact, gun crime spiked for the 1st 10 years of the ban, and then returned to the same level.......so it had no effect on gun crime, since criminals drive gun crime and they were never that violent before.....
> 
> That is changing now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not actually accurate. The method of recording offenses involving “guns” included possession of child’s toys, air guns, replicas and antiques in a public place. Once this glitch in recording was resolved, actual gun crime fell in reality, except in 2007, when there was a genuine spike due to increased gang wars in many major cities. Once the police cracked down the downward trend continued. Yes gun crime is on the increase at the moment, due mainly to the ineptitude and ideologically driven and totally unnecessary austerity policies of successive Right wing governments who defunded our police (22000 officers lost their jobs) and social programs that helped to prevent young people turning to drugs and crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...he was a civilian who taught people how to shoot, he wasn't in the military or the police, he was a plumber by profession. Any other law abiding citizen can become a shooting instructor in our country, it doesn't take special permission from the government and it doesn't take previous experience in the police or military.......So you just help out when you point out he was a civilian who owned and guns and helped others learn to shoot them...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but he was the exception that proves the rule. He acted tactically as if he’d rehearsed this scenario in his head or actually been trained to act (probably by ex-military or police instructors) that way at the ranges he frequented since he was 9 years old. He was his own “Rambo-esque” hero in his head and got the chance to act out his fantasies in real life. Most normal people would have called the police and if they owned guns, would just have got them ready in case the gunman came their way to defend themselves, not actively gone out looking for trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That 94% number comes from looking at actual mass public shootings where the U.S. citizen had their legal gun with them at the time of the attack.....which is very rare because most public places are gun free zones which means they can't usually carry their guns with them into those places...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, that comes from manipulating data and extrapolating as is apparently the norm for the gun nut lobby. 33 instances suddenly become a nationwide 94% figure, really? Pull the other one… Oh, I noted the FBI in brackets in your link, except the FBI never stated that normal citizens stop mass shootings 94% of the time, this was the opinion of the article writer based on extrapolating from 33 incidents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental death of children by gun.....and the majority of these children die in homes with criminals in them who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This total BS doesn’t merit any response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …this American woman might be able to get you over your fear of normal people who don't have to be afraid of criminals and a rogue government.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stavroula Avarmidis? A “normal” woman? Trained by the Massachusetts Police and the NRA? Who now makes money out of preying on women’s fears and insecurities in order to sell guns.
> 
> And there we have it, the gun nut lobby preys on the fear and insecurity of normal Americans. Americans who end up owning guns for “self-defense” are basically afraid of their own shadows, or so lacking in self-confidence, they need guns as crutches.
> 
> Gun crazies (and the hopefully soon to be defunct NRA) peddle fear pills; “the only way you can stay safe is to carry a gun at all times, from walking down the street to hiking a backwoods trail, or going to a party, carry a gun, sleep with it, masturbate with it, the gun is your only hope!” Throw in Stavroula Avramidis as a bit of gun porn, (sex sells, don’t you know) and there you have the basic sales pitch from the NRA and other gun crazies’ groups; “Don’t forget the Guv-mint…might turn tyrannical at any moment, so you’ll need your .38 special to fight off those nasty Predator drones with their Hellfire missiles, or their M1 Abrams tanks”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again......the actual research shows you are wrong......women who are attacked in public places by strangers stand a better chance of not getting raped if they have a gun for self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would be the research carried out by someone fired by their university for sexual assault….OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Krav Maga is crap.....when it comes to a woman vs. a violent criminal......I have been involved in the martial arts my entire life, and a woman vs. a man is at an extreme disadvantage from the start, and something tells me the average woman is not going to train like a Spartan to make Krav Maga effective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Krav Maga is crap? Tell that to the IDF, I’m sure the Israeli military would be aghast and change their training to Kung Fu immediately! Ever been in a street fight? I’ve seen martial artists that normally prance around in their pajamas to set rules of engagement get creamed by untrained street thugs who use whatever means necessary to beat the sh*t out of an opponent. Krav Maga is one of many self defence methods that emphasise, amongst other things, situational awareness, use of whatever items at hand that can be used as weapons and a few key moves that can disable an attacker long enough for the attack victim to escape; you don’t need years of training and multi coloured belts. Real life is not Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris.
> 
> Oh, as for your other examples, Dinah Burns was 62, granted the American pervo-sphere has many depraved people but I don’t think rapists go around with baseball bats (which, incidentally, come highly recommended as home defence weapons). Maybe American women should be trained to lock their doors and windows if home alone, and maybe some business owners should invest in composite doors that can’t be kicked in. I could go on but I suspect that the fact that there are other, better ways of being secure would fall on deaf ears when GUNZ!!! are concerned. Oh, another fun fact, it appears that 47% of concealed carry permit holders rarely if ever carry their guns when out and about. Woman’s Gun vs. Two Kidnappers: Three Concealed Carry Tips You Should Know - Laissez Faire
Click to expand...



Moron......

The IDF uses Krav Maga as a back up to using their guns.....and trained soldiers are not the housewife taking class 2 times a week for an hour....you dumb ass.....

And again........

Which would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she use a gun to stop the rape?.....you failed to address that question.

Next....if given the chance to go back in time, would you take the guns away from the women who used them to save themselves from rape, robbery and murder.

And the guy who stopped the Church shooter....was a plumber.....not a cop, not a SEAL.........a plumber who taught people how to shoot, not to engage in Close Quarters Battle....you moron...he saved the lives of 25 people in that church.....long before the police were able to arrive.....

And from an actual Navy SEAL.....?

Use a gun...and concealed carry......Period............  Tell us he doesn't know what he is talking about......


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk


How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, the gun porn show has finished I see. Been a bit busy of late dealing with Spanish bureaucracy. Anyway to begin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually, it didn't....in fact, gun crime spiked for the 1st 10 years of the ban, and then returned to the same level.......so it had no effect on gun crime, since criminals drive gun crime and they were never that violent before.....
> 
> That is changing now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not actually accurate. The method of recording offenses involving “guns” included possession of child’s toys, air guns, replicas and antiques in a public place. Once this glitch in recording was resolved, actual gun crime fell in reality, except in 2007, when there was a genuine spike due to increased gang wars in many major cities. Once the police cracked down the downward trend continued. Yes gun crime is on the increase at the moment, due mainly to the ineptitude and ideologically driven and totally unnecessary austerity policies of successive Right wing governments who defunded our police (22000 officers lost their jobs) and social programs that helped to prevent young people turning to drugs and crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...he was a civilian who taught people how to shoot, he wasn't in the military or the police, he was a plumber by profession. Any other law abiding citizen can become a shooting instructor in our country, it doesn't take special permission from the government and it doesn't take previous experience in the police or military.......So you just help out when you point out he was a civilian who owned and guns and helped others learn to shoot them...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but he was the exception that proves the rule. He acted tactically as if he’d rehearsed this scenario in his head or actually been trained to act (probably by ex-military or police instructors) that way at the ranges he frequented since he was 9 years old. He was his own “Rambo-esque” hero in his head and got the chance to act out his fantasies in real life. Most normal people would have called the police and if they owned guns, would just have got them ready in case the gunman came their way to defend themselves, not actively gone out looking for trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That 94% number comes from looking at actual mass public shootings where the U.S. citizen had their legal gun with them at the time of the attack.....which is very rare because most public places are gun free zones which means they can't usually carry their guns with them into those places...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, that comes from manipulating data and extrapolating as is apparently the norm for the gun nut lobby. 33 instances suddenly become a nationwide 94% figure, really? Pull the other one… Oh, I noted the FBI in brackets in your link, except the FBI never stated that normal citizens stop mass shootings 94% of the time, this was the opinion of the article writer based on extrapolating from 33 incidents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental death of children by gun.....and the majority of these children die in homes with criminals in them who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This total BS doesn’t merit any response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …this American woman might be able to get you over your fear of normal people who don't have to be afraid of criminals and a rogue government.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stavroula Avarmidis? A “normal” woman? Trained by the Massachusetts Police and the NRA? Who now makes money out of preying on women’s fears and insecurities in order to sell guns.
> 
> And there we have it, the gun nut lobby preys on the fear and insecurity of normal Americans. Americans who end up owning guns for “self-defense” are basically afraid of their own shadows, or so lacking in self-confidence, they need guns as crutches.
> 
> Gun crazies (and the hopefully soon to be defunct NRA) peddle fear pills; “the only way you can stay safe is to carry a gun at all times, from walking down the street to hiking a backwoods trail, or going to a party, carry a gun, sleep with it, masturbate with it, the gun is your only hope!” Throw in Stavroula Avramidis as a bit of gun porn, (sex sells, don’t you know) and there you have the basic sales pitch from the NRA and other gun crazies’ groups; “Don’t forget the Guv-mint…might turn tyrannical at any moment, so you’ll need your .38 special to fight off those nasty Predator drones with their Hellfire missiles, or their M1 Abrams tanks”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again......the actual research shows you are wrong......women who are attacked in public places by strangers stand a better chance of not getting raped if they have a gun for self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would be the research carried out by someone fired by their university for sexual assault….OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Krav Maga is crap.....when it comes to a woman vs. a violent criminal......I have been involved in the martial arts my entire life, and a woman vs. a man is at an extreme disadvantage from the start, and something tells me the average woman is not going to train like a Spartan to make Krav Maga effective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Krav Maga is crap? Tell that to the IDF, I’m sure the Israeli military would be aghast and change their training to Kung Fu immediately! Ever been in a street fight? I’ve seen martial artists that normally prance around in their pajamas to set rules of engagement get creamed by untrained street thugs who use whatever means necessary to beat the sh*t out of an opponent. Krav Maga is one of many self defence methods that emphasise, amongst other things, situational awareness, use of whatever items at hand that can be used as weapons and a few key moves that can disable an attacker long enough for the attack victim to escape; you don’t need years of training and multi coloured belts. Real life is not Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris.
> 
> Oh, as for your other examples, Dinah Burns was 62, granted the American pervo-sphere has many depraved people but I don’t think rapists go around with baseball bats (which, incidentally, come highly recommended as home defence weapons). Maybe American women should be trained to lock their doors and windows if home alone, and maybe some business owners should invest in composite doors that can’t be kicked in. I could go on but I suspect that the fact that there are other, better ways of being secure would fall on deaf ears when GUNZ!!! are concerned. Oh, another fun fact, it appears that 47% of concealed carry permit holders rarely if ever carry their guns when out and about. Woman’s Gun vs. Two Kidnappers: Three Concealed Carry Tips You Should Know - Laissez Faire
Click to expand...



*Oh, as for your other examples, Dinah Burns was 62, granted the American pervo-sphere has many depraved people but I don’t think rapists go around with baseball bats (which, incidentally, come highly recommended as home defence weapons).*

*Yes........two men, with a baseball bat, telling a woman she is going with them.......I am sure they just wanted her to bake them some cookies.......and notice, you dumb ass......all she did was draw her gun and the two full sized males ran away....from a 62 year old woman.......you twit.

Tell us which woman in Britain could have stopped that attack......without a gun.....please...tell us....*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
Click to expand...



It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?   

Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
Click to expand...

This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
Click to expand...


How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....

The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......

12 gauge double barreled shotgun,

.22 caliber bolt action rifle....

12 people killed, 11 injured........









						Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




You don't understand anything you are talking about......


----------



## Vagabond63

Oh, your hypothetical time travelling questions were addressed to "anti-gun extremists". Since I'm not one of those, I ignored  the question. You do seem obsessed with rape. Perhaps you should see a shrink before you act out your obsession, unless you already have.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
Click to expand...



We had 10 mass public shootings in 2019........ 76 people killed...total.....in a country of over 320 million people with over 18.6 million people who can carry guns on their person ...........

more people are killed by knives every year than by mass public shooters in the U.S....over 1,500 people killed each year by knives......over 400 by clubs...you doofus.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, your hypothetical time travelling questions were addressed to "anti-gun extremists". Since I'm not one of those, I ignored  the question. You do seem obsessed with rape. Perhaps you should see a shrink before you act out your obsession, unless you already have.....




And you won't answer the questions.........coward.

Again....

Do you prefer that a woman suffer being raped or that she use a gun to stop the rape?

For the long list of women who used guns to stop rape, robbery and murder, if given the chance to go back in time, would you take their guns away from them?  Before they stopped the attack?

Coward.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
Click to expand...

One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, the gun porn show has finished I see. Been a bit busy of late dealing with Spanish bureaucracy. Anyway to begin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually, it didn't....in fact, gun crime spiked for the 1st 10 years of the ban, and then returned to the same level.......so it had no effect on gun crime, since criminals drive gun crime and they were never that violent before.....
> 
> That is changing now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not actually accurate. The method of recording offenses involving “guns” included possession of child’s toys, air guns, replicas and antiques in a public place. Once this glitch in recording was resolved, actual gun crime fell in reality, except in 2007, when there was a genuine spike due to increased gang wars in many major cities. Once the police cracked down the downward trend continued. Yes gun crime is on the increase at the moment, due mainly to the ineptitude and ideologically driven and totally unnecessary austerity policies of successive Right wing governments who defunded our police (22000 officers lost their jobs) and social programs that helped to prevent young people turning to drugs and crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...he was a civilian who taught people how to shoot, he wasn't in the military or the police, he was a plumber by profession. Any other law abiding citizen can become a shooting instructor in our country, it doesn't take special permission from the government and it doesn't take previous experience in the police or military.......So you just help out when you point out he was a civilian who owned and guns and helped others learn to shoot them...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but he was the exception that proves the rule. He acted tactically as if he’d rehearsed this scenario in his head or actually been trained to act (probably by ex-military or police instructors) that way at the ranges he frequented since he was 9 years old. He was his own “Rambo-esque” hero in his head and got the chance to act out his fantasies in real life. Most normal people would have called the police and if they owned guns, would just have got them ready in case the gunman came their way to defend themselves, not actively gone out looking for trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
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> 
> That 94% number comes from looking at actual mass public shootings where the U.S. citizen had their legal gun with them at the time of the attack.....which is very rare because most public places are gun free zones which means they can't usually carry their guns with them into those places...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, that comes from manipulating data and extrapolating as is apparently the norm for the gun nut lobby. 33 instances suddenly become a nationwide 94% figure, really? Pull the other one… Oh, I noted the FBI in brackets in your link, except the FBI never stated that normal citizens stop mass shootings 94% of the time, this was the opinion of the article writer based on extrapolating from 33 incidents.
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> Accidental death of children by gun.....and the majority of these children die in homes with criminals in them who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This total BS doesn’t merit any response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …this American woman might be able to get you over your fear of normal people who don't have to be afraid of criminals and a rogue government.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stavroula Avarmidis? A “normal” woman? Trained by the Massachusetts Police and the NRA? Who now makes money out of preying on women’s fears and insecurities in order to sell guns.
> 
> And there we have it, the gun nut lobby preys on the fear and insecurity of normal Americans. Americans who end up owning guns for “self-defense” are basically afraid of their own shadows, or so lacking in self-confidence, they need guns as crutches.
> 
> Gun crazies (and the hopefully soon to be defunct NRA) peddle fear pills; “the only way you can stay safe is to carry a gun at all times, from walking down the street to hiking a backwoods trail, or going to a party, carry a gun, sleep with it, masturbate with it, the gun is your only hope!” Throw in Stavroula Avramidis as a bit of gun porn, (sex sells, don’t you know) and there you have the basic sales pitch from the NRA and other gun crazies’ groups; “Don’t forget the Guv-mint…might turn tyrannical at any moment, so you’ll need your .38 special to fight off those nasty Predator drones with their Hellfire missiles, or their M1 Abrams tanks”.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again......the actual research shows you are wrong......women who are attacked in public places by strangers stand a better chance of not getting raped if they have a gun for self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would be the research carried out by someone fired by their university for sexual assault….OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Krav Maga is crap.....when it comes to a woman vs. a violent criminal......I have been involved in the martial arts my entire life, and a woman vs. a man is at an extreme disadvantage from the start, and something tells me the average woman is not going to train like a Spartan to make Krav Maga effective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *sigh* Krav Maga is crap? Tell that to the IDF, I’m sure the Israeli military would be aghast and change their training to Kung Fu immediately! Ever been in a street fight? I’ve seen martial artists that normally prance around in their pajamas to set rules of engagement get creamed by untrained street thugs who use whatever means necessary to beat the sh*t out of an opponent. Krav Maga is one of many self defence methods that emphasise, amongst other things, situational awareness, use of whatever items at hand that can be used as weapons and a few key moves that can disable an attacker long enough for the attack victim to escape; you don’t need years of training and multi coloured belts. Real life is not Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris.
> 
> Oh, as for your other examples, Dinah Burns was 62, granted the American pervo-sphere has many depraved people but I don’t think rapists go around with baseball bats (which, incidentally, come highly recommended as home defence weapons). Maybe American women should be trained to lock their doors and windows if home alone, and maybe some business owners should invest in composite doors that can’t be kicked in. I could go on but I suspect that the fact that there are other, better ways of being secure would fall on deaf ears when GUNZ!!! are concerned. Oh, another fun fact, it appears that 47% of concealed carry permit holders rarely if ever carry their guns when out and about. Woman’s Gun vs. Two Kidnappers: Three Concealed Carry Tips You Should Know - Laissez Faire
Click to expand...


*Stavroula Avarmidis? A “normal” woman? Trained by the Massachusetts Police and the NRA? Who now makes money out of preying on women’s fears and insecurities in order to sell guns.*


Like the plumber...she isn't a cop or a SEAL.......she is a normal woman who went and had training just like any other American can get..........an American woman who can use a gun to save herself and her family from criminals....


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
Click to expand...


Quite a few.....but total number of deaths from all mass shootings since 1982......about just over 700.........number of people killed with knives every single year...over 1,500......

knives are deadlier than all the mass public shooters since 1982....you doofus.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
Click to expand...



He killed 12 people, injured 11...with a double barreled shotgun and bolt action rifle....you doofus........that is more people killed than in each mass public shooting in the U.S. in 2019 except for one, dittos 2018, except for one, you guy killed more people in his shooting than our guys did in theirs and they had access to hand guns...you moron..........................so you have no point, you moron...you don't know what you are talking about....









						US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
					

The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.




					www.motherjones.com


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
Click to expand...



And yours is a stupid question....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......


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## 2aguy

But...if gun control works....why are gun crimes going up in Britain?

*He said the operation was sparked by an increase in the number of gun crime incidents across the capital. Local police spent months gathering evidence before the sting went ahead.*
*-----*
*‘Over recent months, we have seen an increase in the number of firearms incidents across London and proactive operations like this are crucial to removing the availability of weapons and drugs on the streets.

 ‘We have now seized dozens of lethal firearms and prevented them entering the hands of dangerous individuals.’ In July, there were 40 shootings in London, compared to 24 for the same period in 2019.*









						Hundreds of armed police swarm traveller site in biggest ever 'gun crime' raid
					

Police used flash-bang distraction devices before swarming onto the site at around 3am.




					metro.co.uk


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> The IDF uses Krav Maga as a back up to using their guns.....and trained soldiers are not the housewife taking class 2 times a week for an hour....



*sigh* All armies use unarmed combat techniques as a back up to using their guns. 
What makes you think a housewife taking a firearms class 2 times a week for an hour, would make her a deadly accurate shot with the skill set to determine when deadly force is necessary and which is the correct target to shoot at? especially when attacked from behind and/or by surprise? Trained police make mistakes every day, much less Mrs. Rambo-wannabee. Police shoot 13-year-old boy with autism several times after mother calls for help



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> Which would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she use a gun to stop the rape?.....you failed to address that question.
> 
> Next....if given the chance to go back in time, would you take the guns away from the women who used them to save themselves from rape, robbery and murder.



My preferences are irrelevant. Any answer to such a stupid and simplistic question would depend on the specific circumstances and the availability of other options.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> And the guy who stopped the Church shooter....was a plumber.....not a cop, not a SEAL.........a plumber who taught people how to shoot, not to engage in Close Quarters Battle..



…and yet, he used CQB tactics and had taken the trouble to find out where the weak spots were in body armour; he had the skill set to be able to be calm enough to take aim, whilst under fire at a specific point in a moving target. How many “normal” people, and even trained soldiers would be able to do that? Normal people, armed or not, run away from gunfire and if they can’t get away, they hide and take cover. If armed, they rarely if ever shoot back, drawing their weapon as a last resort if the shooter is heading their way. That is normal behavior, even in a society awash with guns. Your “plumber” was the exception that proves the rule, in that he went looking for trouble…armed with an assault rifle.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> Quite a few.....but total number of deaths from all mass shootings since 1982......about just over 700...



Thank you for demonstrating the different mind sets between civilized nations like the UK and Australia, and barbarous, decadent ones elsewhere in the world.

In a civilized society, just one violent death is abhorrent and the cause needs to be remedied.

I think Stalin once said something along the lines of 1 death is a tragedy, 700 just a statistic.

American gun culture dehumanizes people; GUNZ!!! are the only things that matter to the gun nut fraternity…oh, and of course the gun manufacturers who make billions of $ out of human suffering.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> ....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......



Thank you for demonstrating that gun control works in the UK. Do you seriously think we only have one “crazy” person in this country? Gun control means it’s incredibly difficult, if not impossible for anyone with psychiatric problems to acquire a fire arm. One instance in ten years proves only that no system is perfect; once again, the exception proves the rule.



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> But...if gun control works....why are gun crimes going up in Britain?



Peddling fear pills again. They’re not, since 1997, gun crime has fallen steadily; figures fluctuate for many reasons, including changes in reporting and definitions, i.e. including replica and toy guns in gun crime figures, also in many cases when a weapon is not recovered at the scene, there is no way of telling if it was real or not, loaded or not. What your article states is that gun crime is increasing in London, as usual, you extrapolate this into a non-existent nationwide problem. Par for the course for gun nut shills.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The IDF uses Krav Maga as a back up to using their guns.....and trained soldiers are not the housewife taking class 2 times a week for an hour....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh* All armies use unarmed combat techniques as a back up to using their guns.
> What makes you think a housewife taking a firearms class 2 times a week for an hour, would make her a deadly accurate shot with the skill set to determine when deadly force is necessary and which is the correct target to shoot at? especially when attacked from behind and/or by surprise? Trained police make mistakes every day, much less Mrs. Rambo-wannabee. Police shoot 13-year-old boy with autism several times after mother calls for help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she use a gun to stop the rape?.....you failed to address that question.
> 
> Next....if given the chance to go back in time, would you take the guns away from the women who used them to save themselves from rape, robbery and murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My preferences are irrelevant. Any answer to such a stupid and simplistic question would depend on the specific circumstances and the availability of other options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the guy who stopped the Church shooter....was a plumber.....not a cop, not a SEAL.........a plumber who taught people how to shoot, not to engage in Close Quarters Battle..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …and yet, he used CQB tactics and had taken the trouble to find out where the weak spots were in body armour; he had the skill set to be able to be calm enough to take aim, whilst under fire at a specific point in a moving target. How many “normal” people, and even trained soldiers would be able to do that? Normal people, armed or not, run away from gunfire and if they can’t get away, they hide and take cover. If armed, they rarely if ever shoot back, drawing their weapon as a last resort if the shooter is heading their way. That is normal behavior, even in a society awash with guns. Your “plumber” was the exception that proves the rule, in that he went looking for trouble…armed with an assault rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a few.....but total number of deaths from all mass shootings since 1982......about just over 700...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for demonstrating the different mind sets between civilized nations like the UK and Australia, and barbarous, decadent ones elsewhere in the world.
> 
> In a civilized society, just one violent death is abhorrent and the cause needs to be remedied.
> 
> I think Stalin once said something along the lines of 1 death is a tragedy, 700 just a statistic.
> 
> American gun culture dehumanizes people; GUNZ!!! are the only things that matter to the gun nut fraternity…oh, and of course the gun manufacturers who make billions of $ out of human suffering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for demonstrating that gun control works in the UK. Do you seriously think we only have one “crazy” person in this country? Gun control means it’s incredibly difficult, if not impossible for anyone with psychiatric problems to acquire a fire arm. One instance in ten years proves only that no system is perfect; once again, the exception proves the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But...if gun control works....why are gun crimes going up in Britain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Peddling fear pills again. They’re not, since 1997, gun crime has fallen steadily; figures fluctuate for many reasons, including changes in reporting and definitions, i.e. including replica and toy guns in gun crime figures, also in many cases when a weapon is not recovered at the scene, there is no way of telling if it was real or not, loaded or not. What your article states is that gun crime is increasing in London, as usual, you extrapolate this into a non-existent nationwide problem. Par for the course for gun nut shills.
Click to expand...


*hat makes you think a housewife taking a firearms class 2 times a week for an hour, would make her a deadly accurate shot with the skill set to determine when deadly force is necessary and which is the correct target to shoot at?*

*Because guns are not empty hands......they do not require the skills of the SAS or Navy Seals to use them effectively by a civilian for self defense.......that is why they are so valuable to normal people who don't have hours a week and years of life to train in hand to hand combat...combat that is pretty much pointless against a larger, younger, stronger man...or men....who may also be armed.....

I gave you an entire list of normal women who used their guns to save their lives...they were not SAS, they were not Seals.....

And.....you refuse to answer the questions again....here.....try it again...*

Which would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she use a gun to stop the rape?.....you failed to address that question.

Next....if given the chance to go back in time, would you take the guns away from the women who used them to save themselves from rape, robbery and murder.

*and yet, he used CQB tactics and had taken the trouble to find out where the weak spots were in body armour; he had the skill set to be able to be calm enough to take aim, whilst under fire at a specific point in a moving target. How many “normal” people, and even trained soldiers would be able to do that? Normal people, armed or not, run away from gunfire and if they can’t get away, they hide and take cover. If armed, they rarely if ever shoot back, drawing their weapon as a last resort if the shooter is heading their way. That is normal behavior, even in a society awash with guns. Your “plumber” was the exception that proves the rule, in that he went looking for trouble…armed with an assault rifle.*

*You can tap dance all you want.....the man, by profession, was a plumber, who also at one point in his life taught people to shoot a rifle.......he was not a Seal, a cop, or someone trained in actual CQB.......any normal person who showed up with their rifle would have  stopped the killing simply by showing up and calling out the shooter.....they didn't even have to hit the guy to drive him away....that is why guns are the great equalizer.....they allow normal people to deal with violent criminals, even criminals with guns, without requiring Seal training to do it....

Story after story of normal people who aren't Seals or cops, stopping violent criminals, often without firing a shot.......you can't deny that, it happens.....lives are saved over and over again.....if you had your way, those people would be raped, robbed or murdered....

*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The IDF uses Krav Maga as a back up to using their guns.....and trained soldiers are not the housewife taking class 2 times a week for an hour....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh* All armies use unarmed combat techniques as a back up to using their guns.
> What makes you think a housewife taking a firearms class 2 times a week for an hour, would make her a deadly accurate shot with the skill set to determine when deadly force is necessary and which is the correct target to shoot at? especially when attacked from behind and/or by surprise? Trained police make mistakes every day, much less Mrs. Rambo-wannabee. Police shoot 13-year-old boy with autism several times after mother calls for help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she use a gun to stop the rape?.....you failed to address that question.
> 
> Next....if given the chance to go back in time, would you take the guns away from the women who used them to save themselves from rape, robbery and murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My preferences are irrelevant. Any answer to such a stupid and simplistic question would depend on the specific circumstances and the availability of other options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the guy who stopped the Church shooter....was a plumber.....not a cop, not a SEAL.........a plumber who taught people how to shoot, not to engage in Close Quarters Battle..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …and yet, he used CQB tactics and had taken the trouble to find out where the weak spots were in body armour; he had the skill set to be able to be calm enough to take aim, whilst under fire at a specific point in a moving target. How many “normal” people, and even trained soldiers would be able to do that? Normal people, armed or not, run away from gunfire and if they can’t get away, they hide and take cover. If armed, they rarely if ever shoot back, drawing their weapon as a last resort if the shooter is heading their way. That is normal behavior, even in a society awash with guns. Your “plumber” was the exception that proves the rule, in that he went looking for trouble…armed with an assault rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a few.....but total number of deaths from all mass shootings since 1982......about just over 700...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for demonstrating the different mind sets between civilized nations like the UK and Australia, and barbarous, decadent ones elsewhere in the world.
> 
> In a civilized society, just one violent death is abhorrent and the cause needs to be remedied.
> 
> I think Stalin once said something along the lines of 1 death is a tragedy, 700 just a statistic.
> 
> American gun culture dehumanizes people; GUNZ!!! are the only things that matter to the gun nut fraternity…oh, and of course the gun manufacturers who make billions of $ out of human suffering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for demonstrating that gun control works in the UK. Do you seriously think we only have one “crazy” person in this country? Gun control means it’s incredibly difficult, if not impossible for anyone with psychiatric problems to acquire a fire arm. One instance in ten years proves only that no system is perfect; once again, the exception proves the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But...if gun control works....why are gun crimes going up in Britain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Peddling fear pills again. They’re not, since 1997, gun crime has fallen steadily; figures fluctuate for many reasons, including changes in reporting and definitions, i.e. including replica and toy guns in gun crime figures, also in many cases when a weapon is not recovered at the scene, there is no way of telling if it was real or not, loaded or not. What your article states is that gun crime is increasing in London, as usual, you extrapolate this into a non-existent nationwide problem. Par for the course for gun nut shills.
Click to expand...



*American gun culture dehumanizes people; GUNZ!!! are the only things that matter to the gun nut fraternity…oh, and of course the gun manufacturers who make billions of $ out of human suffering.*

*No....left wing policies dehumanize people, then they keep releasing the monsters they create.....

American gun culture creates strong, self reliant people...people who can defend themselves and their families from the dehumanized criminals created by left wing political policies........

And the lives saved in this country by normal people with guns out numbers the lives taken by the criminals created by the democrat party, and released by them from jail and prison over and over again..*

*Thank you for demonstrating that gun control works in the UK. Do you seriously think we only have one “crazy” person in this country? Gun control means it’s incredibly difficult, if not impossible for anyone with psychiatric problems to acquire a fire arm. One instance in ten years proves only that no system is perfect; once again, the exception proves the rule.*

*Nice attempt to divert attention......you say you have legal guns in Britain, I point out because you have those legal guns you have all you need for mass public shootings.......you get caught without an answer...since the guy in Cumbria used the legal guns in your country to kill 12 people and wound 11.....more people killed than all but 2 of our 10 mass public shootings in 2019.......he used a .22 caliber bolt action rifle, and a double barreled shotgun......so the only reason you don't have more killers running around killing people is they don't choose to do it...you gun control laws aren't stopping them......

Gun crime is increasing in Britain...as your drug gangs need them to increae their drug turf......they no longer fear the police, they do not respect your culture or your laws.....*


----------



## 2aguy

Something British women can't do...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The IDF uses Krav Maga as a back up to using their guns.....and trained soldiers are not the housewife taking class 2 times a week for an hour....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh* All armies use unarmed combat techniques as a back up to using their guns.
> What makes you think a housewife taking a firearms class 2 times a week for an hour, would make her a deadly accurate shot with the skill set to determine when deadly force is necessary and which is the correct target to shoot at? especially when attacked from behind and/or by surprise? Trained police make mistakes every day, much less Mrs. Rambo-wannabee. Police shoot 13-year-old boy with autism several times after mother calls for help
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which would you prefer....that a woman is raped, or that she use a gun to stop the rape?.....you failed to address that question.
> 
> Next....if given the chance to go back in time, would you take the guns away from the women who used them to save themselves from rape, robbery and murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My preferences are irrelevant. Any answer to such a stupid and simplistic question would depend on the specific circumstances and the availability of other options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the guy who stopped the Church shooter....was a plumber.....not a cop, not a SEAL.........a plumber who taught people how to shoot, not to engage in Close Quarters Battle..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> …and yet, he used CQB tactics and had taken the trouble to find out where the weak spots were in body armour; he had the skill set to be able to be calm enough to take aim, whilst under fire at a specific point in a moving target. How many “normal” people, and even trained soldiers would be able to do that? Normal people, armed or not, run away from gunfire and if they can’t get away, they hide and take cover. If armed, they rarely if ever shoot back, drawing their weapon as a last resort if the shooter is heading their way. That is normal behavior, even in a society awash with guns. Your “plumber” was the exception that proves the rule, in that he went looking for trouble…armed with an assault rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a few.....but total number of deaths from all mass shootings since 1982......about just over 700...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for demonstrating the different mind sets between civilized nations like the UK and Australia, and barbarous, decadent ones elsewhere in the world.
> 
> In a civilized society, just one violent death is abhorrent and the cause needs to be remedied.
> 
> I think Stalin once said something along the lines of 1 death is a tragedy, 700 just a statistic.
> 
> American gun culture dehumanizes people; GUNZ!!! are the only things that matter to the gun nut fraternity…oh, and of course the gun manufacturers who make billions of $ out of human suffering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you for demonstrating that gun control works in the UK. Do you seriously think we only have one “crazy” person in this country? Gun control means it’s incredibly difficult, if not impossible for anyone with psychiatric problems to acquire a fire arm. One instance in ten years proves only that no system is perfect; once again, the exception proves the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But...if gun control works....why are gun crimes going up in Britain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Peddling fear pills again. They’re not, since 1997, gun crime has fallen steadily; figures fluctuate for many reasons, including changes in reporting and definitions, i.e. including replica and toy guns in gun crime figures, also in many cases when a weapon is not recovered at the scene, there is no way of telling if it was real or not, loaded or not. What your article states is that gun crime is increasing in London, as usual, you extrapolate this into a non-existent nationwide problem. Par for the course for gun nut shills.
Click to expand...



Krav Maga would not have helped this woman...her pistol stopped this violent criminal and she forced him to lie down until the police arrived...in Britain, she would have simply been the next individual murdered by the criminal with the knife....

Without the gun, this woman would have been helpless in front of this criminal...her life left in the hands of a man who had just murdered an 84 year old man.......

Notice this about the story in the local press.........the mention of the woman with the concealed carry permit actually stopping the attacker, telling him to lay on the ground?  Gets the smallest portion of the coverage of the event......if you read too fast you will miss it...

She stopped this guy.....she saved lives....

*It happened again yesterday in a Michigan Meijer store where a woman carrying a concealed firearm witnessed a knife attack.*



> *A 85-year-old man was fatally stabbed Wednesday at Meijer in Adrian. …
> Police were able to take the suspect into custody without incident.
> The suspect was a 29-year-old man from Adrian, according to a news release.
> Emrick said that a woman with a concealed pistol license witnessed the stabbing taking place. She drew her pistol on the suspect and ordered him to the ground. The woman held the suspect at gunpoint until police arrived.*


*It isn’t clear what caused the attack and there’s no way to know how many more people might have been hurt or killed if the unidentified woman hadn’t used her lawfully carried handgun to stop the man with the knife and hold him until police could arrive.*









						Woman With a Gun Stops Deadly Knife Attack in Michigan Meijer Store - The Truth About Guns
					

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ As we’re constantly told by some of the nation’s smartest minds (here, here, here and here), the idea of a “good guy with a gun” stopping violence and saving lives is a silly fantasy pushed by radical gun nuts and the NRA in order to justify their sick obsession...




					www.thetruthaboutguns.com
				




From the local news source...

*A 85-year-old man was fatally stabbed Wednesday at Meijer in Adrian.*
*
Police were first dispatched to the scene at 12:30 p.m. with information about a man with a knife in the automotive section at the back of the store at 217 U.S. 223, said Adrian Police Chief Vincent Emrick at the scene.

While police were en route, the call was upgraded to a stabbing in progress.

Upon arrival, officers found the victim between the automotive and sporting goods section, having been stabbed multiple times in the head and neck. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Police were able to take the suspect into custody without incident.

The suspect was a 29-year-old man from Adrian, according to a news release.
*
*Emrick said that a woman with a concealed pistol license witnessed the stabbing taking place. She drew her pistol on the suspect and ordered him to the ground. The woman held the suspect at gunpoint until police arrived.*









						85-year-old man stabbed to death at Michigan Meijer, suspect held by woman with gun
					

The suspect was held at gunpoint by another customer until police arrived.



					www.freep.com


----------



## 2aguy

Hmmmmm...how is it that 3 men were shot in gun free Britain?

*Three men were shot last night in what police called an act of ‘outrageous violence’. Two of the victims were treated for serious injuries while a third was also taken to hospital with minor injuries following the incident in Far Gosford Street, Coventry, at around 10.15pm on Thursday. The suspected gunman is believed to have left the scene in a dark-coloured vehicle.*


Read more: Three in hospital after 'outrageously violent' shooting

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Log into Facebook | Facebook









						Three in hospital after 'outrageously violent' shooting
					

Two of the victims were treated for serious injuries while a third was also taken to hospital with minor injuries following the incident in Coventry last night.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## Mac-7

OldLady said:


> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy. This is your country after all.


Liberals have made it clear they dont care about random gunshot victims unless they are black and killed by cops, or white and killed by an AR-15 during a mass shooting

For instance do you care how many blacks were shot in chicago this year with illegal guns?

of course you dont

but to liberals taking legal guns away from honest citizens is the right idea

the brits who come on this forum and lecture Americans about our right to own firearms are very tiresome when we know they cant even get their own house in order


----------



## 2aguy

Britain...vs.... the United States..

The U.S....

This 78 year old woman is not a Navy Seal or Delta Force Operator...

*A 78-year-old woman from Spanaway held an intruder at gunpoint after finding the man breaking into her home, according to the Pierce County Sheriff’s Office.*
*The woman, who goes by Sandy, knew something was wrong when her dog, Booboo, started barking Sunday night.
“I opened my door, and standing right 2, 3 feet in front of me was a man. We looked at each other for a few seconds, and he turned and started to leave. And I said, ‘Oh no, you don’t. You stay right there!’” she said.
Content Continues Below

Sandy said her neighborhood has been plagued by crime recently, resulting in her car being prowled twice. When she came face to face with the intruder, she wasn’t about to let him run away.
“I reached over and got my shotgun. And I cocked it, and I told him to stay right there,” she said. “Told him to go sit on the steps. I followed him out, and I just stood here with the shotgun waiting for the police to come.”
It was Sandy’s first time using the shotgun, which she got years ago to protect her family as a single mother. She was initially “scared to death” while holding the intruder at gunpoint.
“But then I was totally calm, really and truly. I thought, ‘This is amazing!’ I said, ‘You know, I’ve got grandchildren your age!’”
The grandmother asked why he tried to break in and was alarmed to hear some of his answers. The Pierce County Sheriff’s Office reported the man told deputies, “He was looking for his wife and talked about how God had sent him.”*
*Deputies arrested the suspect and said it’s all thanks to Sandy’s quick thinking and bold actions.*









						’I reached over and got my shotgun, and I cocked it’: Grandma fends off would-be burglar
					

A 78-year-old grandmother in Spanaway held off a suspected burglar with a shotgun until deputies with the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department arrested him Sunday night.




					www.kiro7.com
				




Britain....

*That led to a terrifying three-hour ordeal in which the attackers used waterboarding – a form of torture in which the victim is made to feel they are about to be drowned.*

*The men took underwear from Mrs Jansen’s bedroom and forced it into her mouth before dragging her into the en-suite bathroom. They pulled her head back over the bath and covered her face with a towel they kept flooded with water from the shower head.

‘They did this to me three times but I just couldn’t open the safe,’ she said. ‘I kept telling them it was empty but they didn’t believe me.’

Mrs Jansen, who lives on a private estate in Weybridge, Surrey, told the Mail: ‘I was absolutely terrified, I thought they were going to kill me.

‘They asked me if I had any grandchildren, I told them I had ten and they said “We are going to kill you, do you think your grandchildren will miss you?”

‘I was consumed by fear. It was sheer hell and all I can remember is praying.’*

*Her six-bedroomed house had been broken into  several weeks before the attack last Friday and Surrey Police believe the raiders had located the two safes at that point.









						Waterboarded by a gang of robbers in her £7m home: Masked intruders torture grandmother, 73, for three hours to make her open a safe
					

Francoise Jansen was subjected to the torture in which the victim is made to feel like they are drowning by two masked men who burst into her £7million home demanding she open a safe.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				



*


----------



## 2aguy

A British police officer.........likely unarmed.....was shot and murdered...by a criminal who had an illegal gun.....in Britain.....you know, where they have gun control....

Inside a police station no less..........

I once saw and episode of the t.v. show, "Cops," when they went to London......it showed London Bobbies taking a really tall guy into custody.....they simply opened the tiny police car door, and the guy got in.....they didn't search the guy till they got to the station......

This is why you search suspects when you arrest them......

*A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.*

*The victim died in hospital after the gunman, who was being detained, opened fire at Croydon custody centre in south London during the early hours of Friday.

The alleged killer, 23, is believed to then have turned the firearm on himself. He was arrested and taken to hospital, where he remains in a critical condition after sustaining a gunshot wound.

Paramedics were scrambled to Croydon custody centre in Windmill Road at 2.15am. Officers who witnessed the shooting, battled to save their colleague’s life.*

*Urgent questions were today being asked about how the suspect, believed to have been arrested on suspicion of possessing ammunition, was apparently able to take a gun inside the station and whether the weapon was missed in a search. The Met said no police firearm was discharged.
----*

*The station was described as a “state of the art” secure facility with space for more than 40 prisoners when it opened in 2012.*









						Police officer shot dead by suspect inside south London station
					

A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

But....they have gun control in Britain.......do the criminals know they have gun control?   They sure don't act like it....

*Two men have been shot** and another was stabbed when masked thugs surrounded a car near a children’s play area. A police manhunt is under way after the violent attack in the Bordesley Green area of Birmingham, shortly before 9pm last night. Three men were in a car on the usually quiet residential street when they were surrounded by a gang armed with a gun and knives. The gang, all wearing masks, opened fire on the trio, hitting two of them in the arms. The third man was stabbed.*


Read more: Masked gang attacked men in their car with knives and a gun

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro









						Masked gang attacked men in their car with knives and a gun
					

A manhunt is under way after the attack near a children's play area.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

2aguy said:


> A British police officer.........likely unarmed.....was shot and murdered...by a criminal who had an illegal gun.....in Britain.....you know, where they have gun control....
> 
> Inside a police station no less..........
> 
> I once saw and episode of the t.v. show, "Cops," when they went to London......it showed London Bobbies taking a really tall guy into custody.....they simply opened the tiny police car door, and the guy got in.....they didn't search the guy till they got to the station......
> 
> This is why you search suspects when you arrest them......
> 
> *A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.*
> 
> *The victim died in hospital after the gunman, who was being detained, opened fire at Croydon custody centre in south London during the early hours of Friday.
> 
> The alleged killer, 23, is believed to then have turned the firearm on himself. He was arrested and taken to hospital, where he remains in a critical condition after sustaining a gunshot wound.
> 
> Paramedics were scrambled to Croydon custody centre in Windmill Road at 2.15am. Officers who witnessed the shooting, battled to save their colleague’s life.*
> 
> *Urgent questions were today being asked about how the suspect, believed to have been arrested on suspicion of possessing ammunition, was apparently able to take a gun inside the station and whether the weapon was missed in a search. The Met said no police firearm was discharged.
> ----*
> 
> *The station was described as a “state of the art” secure facility with space for more than 40 prisoners when it opened in 2012.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police officer shot dead by suspect inside south London station
> 
> 
> A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk




So.....not only do they have extreme gun control in Britain...but this guy, the one who shot the police officer...in the police station....was on a government terrorist watch list......and he still got an illegal gun...

*The suspect who shot a police sergeant dead at a UK police station was known to counter-terrorism police, it is reported.*

*The 23-year-old was on the specialist unit's radar in the past.*









						Suspect who shot officer dead at station ‘was known to terror police’
					

The 23-year-old suspect was on counter-terrorism police's radar, it is reported, while an investigation has been launched by the Independent Office for Police Conduct after the slain sergeant was shot in the chest




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> A British police officer.........likely unarmed.....was shot and murdered...by a criminal who had an illegal gun.....in Britain.....you know, where they have gun control....
> 
> Inside a police station no less..........
> 
> I once saw and episode of the t.v. show, "Cops," when they went to London......it showed London Bobbies taking a really tall guy into custody.....they simply opened the tiny police car door, and the guy got in.....they didn't search the guy till they got to the station......
> 
> This is why you search suspects when you arrest them......
> 
> *A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.*
> 
> *The victim died in hospital after the gunman, who was being detained, opened fire at Croydon custody centre in south London during the early hours of Friday.
> 
> The alleged killer, 23, is believed to then have turned the firearm on himself. He was arrested and taken to hospital, where he remains in a critical condition after sustaining a gunshot wound.
> 
> Paramedics were scrambled to Croydon custody centre in Windmill Road at 2.15am. Officers who witnessed the shooting, battled to save their colleague’s life.*
> 
> *Urgent questions were today being asked about how the suspect, believed to have been arrested on suspicion of possessing ammunition, was apparently able to take a gun inside the station and whether the weapon was missed in a search. The Met said no police firearm was discharged.
> ----*
> 
> *The station was described as a “state of the art” secure facility with space for more than 40 prisoners when it opened in 2012.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police officer shot dead by suspect inside south London station
> 
> 
> A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So.....not only do they have extreme gun control in Britain...but this guy, the one who shot the police officer...in the police station....was on a government terrorist watch list......and he still got an illegal gun...
> 
> *The suspect who shot a police sergeant dead at a UK police station was known to counter-terrorism police, it is reported.
> 
> The 23-year-old was on the specialist unit's radar in the past.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suspect who shot officer dead at station ‘was known to terror police’
> 
> 
> The 23-year-old suspect was on counter-terrorism police's radar, it is reported, while an investigation has been launched by the Independent Office for Police Conduct after the slain sergeant was shot in the chest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mirror.co.uk
Click to expand...

Have any police officers been shot in the US this year ?


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> A British police officer.........likely unarmed.....was shot and murdered...by a criminal who had an illegal gun.....in Britain.....you know, where they have gun control....
> 
> Inside a police station no less..........
> 
> I once saw and episode of the t.v. show, "Cops," when they went to London......it showed London Bobbies taking a really tall guy into custody.....they simply opened the tiny police car door, and the guy got in.....they didn't search the guy till they got to the station......
> 
> This is why you search suspects when you arrest them......
> 
> *A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.*
> 
> *The victim died in hospital after the gunman, who was being detained, opened fire at Croydon custody centre in south London during the early hours of Friday.
> 
> The alleged killer, 23, is believed to then have turned the firearm on himself. He was arrested and taken to hospital, where he remains in a critical condition after sustaining a gunshot wound.
> 
> Paramedics were scrambled to Croydon custody centre in Windmill Road at 2.15am. Officers who witnessed the shooting, battled to save their colleague’s life.*
> 
> *Urgent questions were today being asked about how the suspect, believed to have been arrested on suspicion of possessing ammunition, was apparently able to take a gun inside the station and whether the weapon was missed in a search. The Met said no police firearm was discharged.
> ----*
> 
> *The station was described as a “state of the art” secure facility with space for more than 40 prisoners when it opened in 2012.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police officer shot dead by suspect inside south London station
> 
> 
> A "long-serving" custody sergeant died after being shot by a suspect inside a police station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So.....not only do they have extreme gun control in Britain...but this guy, the one who shot the police officer...in the police station....was on a government terrorist watch list......and he still got an illegal gun...
> 
> *The suspect who shot a police sergeant dead at a UK police station was known to counter-terrorism police, it is reported.
> 
> The 23-year-old was on the specialist unit's radar in the past.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suspect who shot officer dead at station ‘was known to terror police’
> 
> 
> The 23-year-old suspect was on counter-terrorism police's radar, it is reported, while an investigation has been launched by the Independent Office for Police Conduct after the slain sergeant was shot in the chest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mirror.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have any police officers been shot in the US this year ?
Click to expand...



Yes.....but you are the ones who brag that your gun control laws keep criminals from killing police officers...this one shot the officer in a police station with a hand gun.....

Gun control does not keep guns from criminals, it simply makes sure normal people are helpless in the face of rapists, thieves and killers.


----------



## beautress

This thread reminds me of a song my grandpa used to sing from his days in WWI as a US soldier: "How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree? How you gonna keep them away from harm...that's a mystery...."
*sigh*


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## 2aguy

A good video for women who live in Britain.....


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## 2aguy

A tale of two different attacks...one in Britain one in the U.S...

*Britain....*

*A woman suffered serious head injuries after being “attacked with a hammer” in a quiet country lane.*
*
The victim, whose age is not known, was taken to hospital after being found in Telegraph Lane in Claygate, Surrey at about 1.15pm on Monday.

Detectives believe she was targeted in an unprovoked attack.

A 22-year-old man was arrested soon afterwards and was being questioned today on suspicion of attempted murder.*









						Woman suffers serious head injuries in country lane 'hammer attack'
					

A woman suffered serious head injuries after being “attacked with a hammer” in a quiet country lane.




					www.standard.co.uk
				





*United States......*

Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them

*LANCASTER, Ohio - It happened along a walking path in Lancaster.

Dinah Burns is licensed to carry a concealed gun, but she'd only recently started taking her weapon while walking her dog.

Based on what happened, it looks like she'll make a point of carrying from now on.

"I think if they'd gotten any closer, I probably would have fired,” said Burns.

It was Monday when Burns was on a footpath near Sanderson Elementary School.

"Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said 'You're coming with us'."

The men weren't deterred by Dinah's dog Gracie.

"I said, 'Well, what do you want?,' and as I was saying that I reached in to my pocket and slipped my gun out, slipped the safety off as I pulled it out. As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, 'I have this and I'm not afraid to use it.'"

The men took off and so far have eluded police. Dinah posted about the incident on Facebook to alert friends and neighbors, to criticism by some.

"Most of the males' opinion was, 'Why didn't you shoot them?'"

Easy to second-guess a decision made under pressure, based on her concealed carry training, and police agree.

"To get out of a situation, back out, get out of it as much as you can without having to discharge your firearm."

"I will say it's a good thing to go from a place of danger to a place of safety, however you get that done,” said Sgt. Matt Chambers, Lancaster Police.

"Very thankful that it turned out the way it did, and hope it doesn't happen again, but I will be prepared."*


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## 2aguy

Law abiding people carrying guns for self defense does not increase the murder rate...something Britains should learn....


EMAIL





Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center

John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.
------
Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases.

But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot _honestly_ deny it.

















						Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns - The Truth About Guns
					

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it. The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016. Seventeen states no longer provide...




					www.thetruthaboutguns.com


----------



## 2aguy

Sadly, British women do not have the chance to protect themselves at any time of the year, let alone Fall......

An American woman, practicing her Right to self defense...

Keep in mind....she is not a Navy SEAL, a member of the SAS, or even the police....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Law abiding people carrying guns for self defense does not increase the murder rate...something Britains should learn....
> 
> 
> EMAIL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.
> ------
> Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases.
> 
> But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot _honestly_ deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns - The Truth About Guns
> 
> 
> &#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it. The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016. Seventeen states no longer provide...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetruthaboutguns.com


Crime prevention Research Centre? Ah, the John Lott propaganda factory, making things up again, got it.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> He killed 12 people, injured 11...with a double barreled shotgun and bolt action rifle....you doofus........that is more people killed than in each mass public shooting in the U.S. in 2019 except for one, dittos 2018, except for one, you guy killed more people in his shooting than our guys did in theirs and they had access to hand guns...you moron..........................so you have no point, you moron...you don't know what you are talking about....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
> 
> 
> The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motherjones.com
Click to expand...

So, there have been 118 mass shootings in the US since Mother Jones started to record them since 1982, 98 of these since we passed our handgun ban in 1996. Mass shootings in the UK over the same period? ONE. But gun contol apparently doesn't work...yeah, right, whatever. 

Of course you also seem to avoid mentioning the non mass shootings in America that happen every day, because you allow anyone without an actual criminal record to be able to buy a gun; even criminals can buy guns in some places as no-one bothers with background checks.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And yours is a stupid question....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......
Click to expand...

Our "crazies" have a hard time even getting near a gun, let alone using one. Your single UK example is of a normal person who snapped under the various pressures in his life who was previously of good enough character to be allowed to own firearms. Your "crazies" and others in the same circumstances, just have to visit a gun fair or dodgy gun dealer, buy a gun, and start shooting. 98 mass shootings an countless other "non-mass" shootings in the US since 1997. In the UK, ONE. You even have to trawl through our local papers like the Liverpool Echo to find the occasional gang related shooting incident, which according to your "mindset" you don't count in America as it's a "blue on blue" event.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> A good video for women who live in Britain.....


Seems you're still using the "sex sells" trope.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Law abiding people carrying guns for self defense does not increase the murder rate...something Britains should learn....
> 
> 
> EMAIL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.
> ------
> Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases.
> 
> But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot _honestly_ deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns - The Truth About Guns
> 
> 
> &#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it. The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016. Seventeen states no longer provide...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetruthaboutguns.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crime prevention Research Centre? Ah, the John Lott propaganda factory, making things up again, got it.
Click to expand...



You can't dispute his research...so you lie about him.  You are a weak twit.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> He killed 12 people, injured 11...with a double barreled shotgun and bolt action rifle....you doofus........that is more people killed than in each mass public shooting in the U.S. in 2019 except for one, dittos 2018, except for one, you guy killed more people in his shooting than our guys did in theirs and they had access to hand guns...you moron..........................so you have no point, you moron...you don't know what you are talking about....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
> 
> 
> The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motherjones.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, there have been 118 mass shootings in the US since Mother Jones started to record them since 1982, 98 of these since we passed our handgun ban in 1996. Mass shootings in the UK over the same period? ONE. But gun contol apparently doesn't work...yeah, right, whatever.
> 
> Of course you also seem to avoid mentioning the non mass shootings in America that happen every day, because you allow anyone without an actual criminal record to be able to buy a gun; even criminals can buy guns in some places as no-one bothers with background checks.
Click to expand...



And before the ban in Britain you averaged just one every 10 years...you had guns, you didn't have mass public shootings in large numbers.....gun control had nothing to do with you low rate of mass public shootings, you culture did......you are too stupid to understand that dynamic.

Everyone gets checked and if a criminal buys a gun they can already be arrested and jailed.....the problem, you witless twit...is that our democrat party keeps letting violent gun offenders out of prison and jail........


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And yours is a stupid question....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our "crazies" have a hard time even getting near a gun, let alone using one. Your single UK example is of a normal person who snapped under the various pressures in his life who was previously of good enough character to be allowed to own firearms. Your "crazies" and others in the same circumstances, just have to visit a gun fair or dodgy gun dealer, buy a gun, and start shooting. 98 mass shootings an countless other "non-mass" shootings in the US since 1997. In the UK, ONE. You even have to trawl through our local papers like the Liverpool Echo to find the occasional gang related shooting incident, which according to your "mindset" you don't count in America as it's a "blue on blue" event.
Click to expand...



Your criminals get guns easily.....they don't use them to commit murder......more guns are flooding Britain as your immigrant gangs use them to enforce their drug turf.......

10 mass public shootings in the U.S. in 2019...76 people killed...

In a country of over 330 million with 600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense....

76 people killed........

Population of Britain...66 million.....

You don't know what you are talking about.


And again...

A woman is being attacked and raped.....do you think it is better she is raped, tortured and murdered or that she is able to have and use a gun to stop it?

You have refused to answer that question...you are a coward who hoped that time would make me forget to ask that question.

If a woman stops a rape with a gun, and you had the chance to go back in time to take that gun away from her...would you take that gun away from her?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
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> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> He killed 12 people, injured 11...with a double barreled shotgun and bolt action rifle....you doofus........that is more people killed than in each mass public shooting in the U.S. in 2019 except for one, dittos 2018, except for one, you guy killed more people in his shooting than our guys did in theirs and they had access to hand guns...you moron..........................so you have no point, you moron...you don't know what you are talking about....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
> 
> 
> The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motherjones.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, there have been 118 mass shootings in the US since Mother Jones started to record them since 1982, 98 of these since we passed our handgun ban in 1996. Mass shootings in the UK over the same period? ONE. But gun contol apparently doesn't work...yeah, right, whatever.
> 
> Of course you also seem to avoid mentioning the non mass shootings in America that happen every day, because you allow anyone without an actual criminal record to be able to buy a gun; even criminals can buy guns in some places as no-one bothers with background checks.
Click to expand...



Do you prefer that a woman suffer being raped or that she use a gun to stop the rape?

For the long list of women who used guns to stop rape, robbery and murder, if given the chance to go back in time, would you take their guns away from them? Before they stopped the attack?


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> A good video for women who live in Britain.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems you're still using the "sex sells" trope.
Click to expand...



Nope....not at all....I am showing that normal people can own and use guns safely and effectively, especially women....who are uniquely vulnerable to violent criminals.

You prefer that women remain easy victims of rape, robbery and murder.......


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
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> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And yours is a stupid question....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our "crazies" have a hard time even getting near a gun, let alone using one. Your single UK example is of a normal person who snapped under the various pressures in his life who was previously of good enough character to be allowed to own firearms. Your "crazies" and others in the same circumstances, just have to visit a gun fair or dodgy gun dealer, buy a gun, and start shooting. 98 mass shootings an countless other "non-mass" shootings in the US since 1997. In the UK, ONE. You even have to trawl through our local papers like the Liverpool Echo to find the occasional gang related shooting incident, which according to your "mindset" you don't count in America as it's a "blue on blue" event.
Click to expand...



Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders......

vs. 76 people killed in mass public shootings....

In France, a muslim terrorist used a truck to murder 87 people and injure 434.......more than any mass public shooting with any type of gun......

Your arguments lack facts, truth and reality......

Also....in Europe, you guys took guns away from your peoples after World War 1......telling them it would make them safer..........

You then allowed the German socialists to murder 12 million unarmed, men, women and children....

If you add up all of our gun deaths from murder since 1939....even using the 2018 number....10,235 as the yearly average you get 818,000 dead.  Of those, 70-80% of those murdered are criminals....murdered by other criminals in criminal acts and the lifestyle....of the rest, the majority of the victims are friends and family, caught up in the criminals lifestyle and shot as a result......

818,000 dead vs 12,000,000 in Europe....

You have no argument that is rational....nothing you say can defend taking guns away from normal people.....normal people who save lives with their guns 1,100,000 times a year in this country....................


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> Law abiding people carrying guns for self defense does not increase the murder rate...something Britains should learn....
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> 
> EMAIL
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> Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.
> ------
> Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases.
> 
> But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot _honestly_ deny it.
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> Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns - The Truth About Guns
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> 
> &#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it. The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016. Seventeen states no longer provide...
> 
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> Crime prevention Research Centre? Ah, the John Lott propaganda factory, making things up again, got it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can't dispute his research...so you lie about him.  You are a weak twit.
Click to expand...

You call it "research" the rest of academia just roll their collective eyes and call it what is, "make believe, gun nut fantasies" Both Lott and Gleck are basically fringe conspiracy theorists masquerading as "researchers". They have been thoroughly debunked time after time, so there's no need for me to comment further.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> And before the ban in Britain you averaged just one every 10 years...you had guns, you didn't have mass public shootings in large numbers.....gun control had nothing to do with you low rate of mass public shootings, you culture did......you are too stupid to understand that dynamic.



Exactly, your "culture" inherently promotes gun violence, so you need proper gun control in the form of registration, licencing, and most importantly, full training in firearms use, before any of you get anywhere near a gun.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> A woman is being attacked and raped.....do you think it is better she is raped, tortured and murdered or that she is able to have and use a gun to stop it?
> 
> You have refused to answer that question...you are a coward who hoped that time would make me forget to ask that question.
> 
> If a woman stops a rape with a gun, and you had the chance to go back in time to take that gun away from her...would you take that gun away from her?


Firstly you appear to have an unhealy obsession with rape, maybe you should seek counselling.
Secondly, your question is meaningless. Exactly how many women have used firearms in such a situation? Got a link to the relevant statistics that show women in America regularly use guns to protect themselves? 



2aguy said:


> Your criminals get guns easily.....they don't use them to commit murder......more guns are flooding Britain as your immigrant gangs use them to enforce their drug turf.......



Not as easily as your criminals, who just need to walk into a gun shop or go to a gun fair in States that don't do any form of checking. Technically your criminals have a right to bear arms, like everyone else, it seems. I've never seen anything in you 2nd ammendment that says, ..."except criminals". But hey, why bother to buy guns when you can so easily steal them. Gun Theft in the United States: A State-by-State Analysis - Center for American Progress


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Nope....not at all....I am showing that normal people can own and use guns safely and effectively,


Yes they can, with the proper licencing, registration and most important of all full and proper training in the use and storage of firearms.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> 
> 15 year old shot in the mouth....in a country with extreme gun control.....
> 
> And how did a 15 year old, the one suspected of being the shooter.....get a gun, in gun controlled Britain?
> 
> *The teenager, 15, is fighting for his life in hospital after being gunned down on his first day back at Kesgrave High School, Ipswich, on Monday morning. A boy, also 15, was later arrested about five miles from the scene at 11am. According to sources, they had once been close friends, reported The Sun. One parent described hearing the shooting just before 8.30am. They said: ‘It was a very, very loud bang. Then there was a lot of shouting and screaming.’ -------
> Another neighbour said their son also heard the sound of the blast followed by a ‘significant pause’ then a scream ‘maybe from someone who witnessed what happened’. He told the Mirror: ‘He was apparently shot in the mouth. Today would have been his first day back at school, so someone knew exactly where he would be. The boy who was shot comes from a good family.’*
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> Read more: Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrified children heard 'very loud bang' before boy, 15, 'shot in face'
> 
> 
> One parent said children took cover in her home after a woman was heard screaming 'run' in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> metro.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that the weapon was illegal? An eyewitness stated the shooter looked as if they were carrying a brush or pole covered by clothes. That sounds like a rifle or shotgun, both of which are legally available in the UK. Perhaps his parents got careless, like many, many American parents and the kid got hold of the keys to the gun safe/cabinet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is legal...you dumb ass.....your gun control laws are supposed to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes......they don't......what are the odds that those doing the shooting went through the rigorous training, and legal requirements to own that shotgun?  You moron.    And which gun control law in Britain kept them from walking into a school, a theater, a church?
> 
> Your criminal gangs will use guns when they want to shoot people ....and your gun control laws are not stopping them....handguns are becoming more and more convenient for your criminals....as they protect their drug trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This 15 year old boy was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger. Our hand gun ban was place to prevent mass shootings of innocent people and it has worked. Gun ownership is restricted so it's very difficult for whack jobs to  go out and shoot up churches, schools, etc. in the UK, unlike in the US, where these events seem to occur every week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has your gun ban stopped mass shootings?   Criminals and crazies still have access to guns, you doofus....the only reason you haven't had another mass shooting is the crazies haven't decided to do one........since they can obviously get guns in your country too.....
> 
> The Cumbria shooting.....12 people killed with a shotgun and bolt action rifle...you dumb ass.......
> 
> 12 gauge double barreled shotgun,
> 
> .22 caliber bolt action rifle....
> 
> 12 people killed........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand anything you are talking about......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One, not using hand guns. How many mass shootings have there been in the US since 1997?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And yours is a stupid question....I have just pointed out that with a .22 bolt action rifle and a double barreled shotgun your guy murdered 12 people and injured 11.....meaning that any one of your crazies has access to weapons that can be used to kill as many people as our mass shooters do with their access to handguns......they just haven't decided to do it yet.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our "crazies" have a hard time even getting near a gun, let alone using one. Your single UK example is of a normal person who snapped under the various pressures in his life who was previously of good enough character to be allowed to own firearms. Your "crazies" and others in the same circumstances, just have to visit a gun fair or dodgy gun dealer, buy a gun, and start shooting. 98 mass shootings an countless other "non-mass" shootings in the US since 1997. In the UK, ONE. You even have to trawl through our local papers like the Liverpool Echo to find the occasional gang related shooting incident, which according to your "mindset" you don't count in America as it's a "blue on blue" event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders......
> 
> vs. 76 people killed in mass public shootings....
> 
> In France, a muslim terrorist used a truck to murder 87 people and injure 434.......more than any mass public shooting with any type of gun......
> 
> Your arguments lack facts, truth and reality......
> 
> Also....in Europe, you guys took guns away from your peoples after World War 1......telling them it would make them safer..........
> 
> You then allowed the German socialists to murder 12 million unarmed, men, women and children....
> 
> If you add up all of our gun deaths from murder since 1939....even using the 2018 number....10,235 as the yearly average you get 818,000 dead.  Of those, 70-80% of those murdered are criminals....murdered by other criminals in criminal acts and the lifestyle....of the rest, the majority of the victims are friends and family, caught up in the criminals lifestyle and shot as a result......
> 
> 818,000 dead vs 12,000,000 in Europe....
> 
> You have no argument that is rational....nothing you say can defend taking guns away from normal people.....normal people who save lives with their guns 1,100,000 times a year in this country....................
Click to expand...

Oh please, not this bullshit again. Can't be bothered to respond to this drivel.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> A woman is being attacked and raped.....do you think it is better she is raped, tortured and murdered or that she is able to have and use a gun to stop it?
> 
> You have refused to answer that question...you are a coward who hoped that time would make me forget to ask that question.
> 
> If a woman stops a rape with a gun, and you had the chance to go back in time to take that gun away from her...would you take that gun away from her?
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly you appear to have an unhealy obsession with rape, maybe you should seek counselling.
> Secondly, your question is meaningless. Exactly how many women have used firearms in such a situation? Got a link to the relevant statistics that show women in America regularly use guns to protect themselves?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your criminals get guns easily.....they don't use them to commit murder......more guns are flooding Britain as your immigrant gangs use them to enforce their drug turf.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not as easily as your criminals, who just need to walk into a gun shop or go to a gun fair in States that don't do any form of checking. Technically your criminals have a right to bear arms, like everyone else, it seems. I've never seen anything in you 2nd ammendment that says, ..."except criminals". But hey, why bother to buy guns when you can so easily steal them. Gun Theft in the United States: A State-by-State Analysis - Center for American Progress
Click to expand...



You asked....you doofus...

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


*However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.*

*I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."*

*The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> A woman is being attacked and raped.....do you think it is better she is raped, tortured and murdered or that she is able to have and use a gun to stop it?
> 
> You have refused to answer that question...you are a coward who hoped that time would make me forget to ask that question.
> 
> If a woman stops a rape with a gun, and you had the chance to go back in time to take that gun away from her...would you take that gun away from her?
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly you appear to have an unhealy obsession with rape, maybe you should seek counselling.
> Secondly, your question is meaningless. Exactly how many women have used firearms in such a situation? Got a link to the relevant statistics that show women in America regularly use guns to protect themselves?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your criminals get guns easily.....they don't use them to commit murder......more guns are flooding Britain as your immigrant gangs use them to enforce their drug turf.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not as easily as your criminals, who just need to walk into a gun shop or go to a gun fair in States that don't do any form of checking. Technically your criminals have a right to bear arms, like everyone else, it seems. I've never seen anything in you 2nd ammendment that says, ..."except criminals". But hey, why bother to buy guns when you can so easily steal them. Gun Theft in the United States: A State-by-State Analysis - Center for American Progress
Click to expand...



You don't know what you are talking about......every licensed gun dealer has to do background checks, so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks.....you dumb ass....


That criminals steal guns is the reason to ban them for normal people?  You really are a stupid human being....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And before the ban in Britain you averaged just one every 10 years...you had guns, you didn't have mass public shootings in large numbers.....gun control had nothing to do with you low rate of mass public shootings, you culture did......you are too stupid to understand that dynamic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, your "culture" inherently promotes gun violence, so you need proper gun control in the form of registration, licencing, and most importantly, full training in firearms use, before any of you get anywhere near a gun.
Click to expand...



No, our democrats party lets violent criminals out of jail....don't worry, you will learn what this is like as your lefties are pushing the same stupidity.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Law abiding people carrying guns for self defense does not increase the murder rate...something Britains should learn....
> 
> 
> EMAIL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center
> 
> John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.
> ------
> Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases.
> 
> But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot _honestly_ deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns - The Truth About Guns
> 
> 
> &#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it. The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016. Seventeen states no longer provide...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetruthaboutguns.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crime prevention Research Centre? Ah, the John Lott propaganda factory, making things up again, got it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can't dispute his research...so you lie about him.  You are a weak twit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You call it "research" the rest of academia just roll their collective eyes and call it what is, "make believe, gun nut fantasies" Both Lott and Gleck are basically fringe conspiracy theorists masquerading as "researchers". They have been thoroughly debunked time after time, so there's no need for me to comment further.
Click to expand...



Neither of them has been debunked and no one has been able to touch their research...you lying shit.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> A woman is being attacked and raped.....do you think it is better she is raped, tortured and murdered or that she is able to have and use a gun to stop it?
> 
> You have refused to answer that question...you are a coward who hoped that time would make me forget to ask that question.
> 
> If a woman stops a rape with a gun, and you had the chance to go back in time to take that gun away from her...would you take that gun away from her?
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly you appear to have an unhealy obsession with rape, maybe you should seek counselling.
> Secondly, your question is meaningless. Exactly how many women have used firearms in such a situation? Got a link to the relevant statistics that show women in America regularly use guns to protect themselves?
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your criminals get guns easily.....they don't use them to commit murder......more guns are flooding Britain as your immigrant gangs use them to enforce their drug turf.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not as easily as your criminals, who just need to walk into a gun shop or go to a gun fair in States that don't do any form of checking. Technically your criminals have a right to bear arms, like everyone else, it seems. I've never seen anything in you 2nd ammendment that says, ..."except criminals". But hey, why bother to buy guns when you can so easily steal them. Gun Theft in the United States: A State-by-State Analysis - Center for American Progress
Click to expand...



You refuse to answer a very easy question...here it is again...

A woman is being attacked and raped.....do you think it is better she is raped, tortured and murdered or that she is able to have and use a gun to stop it?

You have refused to answer that question...you are a coward who hoped that time would make me forget to ask that question.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And before the ban in Britain you averaged just one every 10 years...you had guns, you didn't have mass public shootings in large numbers.....gun control had nothing to do with you low rate of mass public shootings, you culture did......you are too stupid to understand that dynamic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, your "culture" inherently promotes gun violence, so you need proper gun control in the form of registration, licencing, and most importantly, full training in firearms use, before any of you get anywhere near a gun.
Click to expand...



Shit for brains......as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down, by 49%....our gun crime rate went down by 75%...

You are really stupid....you have no facts to back up any of your claims and 27 years of experience in the U.S. shows you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You can't dispute his research...so you lie about him. You are a weak twit



I don’t have to, even your gun guru messiah figure Garry Kleck disputes Loot’s findings in his _“_Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control” book. 

Also, serious academics don’t need to ceate “sock puppets” to support them and can provide data when requested, something Lott has signally failed to do for his alleged 1997 study.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You asked....you doofus...
> 
> Guns Effective Defense Against Rape



Well that might be an answer to some question, but not the one I asked, here I’ll refresh your memory, 

*“Exactly how many women have used firearms in such a situation (i.e. attempted rape)?”*

As regards your cut and paste article…seriously, a college newspaper is the best you can do! Even the article itself basically disagrees with your theories, not to mention, using data from 50 years ago… and best of all, the author, Robert J. Woolley was himself fired from his job for…wait for it…sexual assault on a colleague!!! Priceless! Oh, my ribs… stop it.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You don't know what you are talking about......every licensed gun dealer has to do background checks…



Not in Idaho or Montana. Also, ever heard of the “Gun show loophole”?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> That criminals steal guns is the reason to ban them for normal people?



No, but it’s a reason to have them registered and sold to people who are properly trained and licenced, who can store them securely, so they are very difficult, if not impossible to steal.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> ...as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down, by 49%....our gun crime rate went down by 75%...



And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't dispute his research...so you lie about him. You are a weak twit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t have to, even your gun guru messiah figure Garry Kleck disputes Loot’s findings in his _“_Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control” book.
> 
> Also, serious academics don’t need to ceate “sock puppets” to support them and can provide data when requested, something Lott has signally failed to do for his alleged 1997 study.
Click to expand...


Lott did provide the data, and if you weren't such a hack you would know that...


1)   He provides this data, and they screwed it up, not lott...
Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, crime, shall-issue, right-to-carry, NRC

*Abstract*
In an article titled “The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws and the NRC Report: Lessons for the Empirical Evaluation of Law and Policy” published in the _American Law and Economics Review_ in 2011, Abhay Aneja, John Donohue III, and Alexandria Zhang report on their inability to replicate regression estimates appearing in the 2005 National Research Council (NRC) report _Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review_. 

They suggest that there are flaws in the data that John Lott had supplied to the NRC. 

This suggestion could sow seeds of doubt with respect to the many studies that have used that data. 

The source of the replication problem, however, was that Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang did not estimate the correct model specification—a problem that they have acknowledged in subsequent communications. However, in these later communications they do not make clear that the basis for their doubts about the Lott-originated data has disappeared.

2)

Here....

Response to Malkin's Op-ed

people who say he gave them his info. easily

John Lott's website

David Friedman defends lott against various critics...

My_Comments_on_the_Lott_Controversy.html

zhou, donahue used the wrong numbers when they attempted to criticize lott...and then refused to admit their error....

Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, crime, shall-issue, right-to-carry, NRC


Mother jones attack against Lottt…

John Lott's Website: Mother Jones joins the list of left wingers trying to discredit me and the Crime Prevention Research Center

*****************

Do Right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime? - Crime Prevention Research Center

For the data errors in the one published paper by Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang that claims to find a bad effect from right-to-carry laws on aggravated assaults see this paper.
In addition, Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang have retracted their original claim that the my research could not be replicated. Their argument was that Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang could not replicate the replication work done by the National Research Council that had replicated my research. 

In an Erratum note published in October 2012 they concede: “Subsequent to the publication of this article, members of the NRC panel demonstrated to the authors that the results in question were replicable if the authors used the data and statistical models described in Chapter 6 of the NRC (2004) report.”

------

Lott defends against accusations he works for gun lobby

What gun control advocates bring up when they have nothing else to say, More attacks against the CPRC by gun control advocates - Crime Prevention Research Center


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't know what you are talking about......every licensed gun dealer has to do background checks…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not in Idaho or Montana. Also, ever heard of the “Gun show loophole”?
Click to expand...



You are an idiot...there is no gun show loophole you tool.   And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about........and yet you still post it.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down, by 49%....our gun crime rate went down by 75%...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws.
Click to expand...



No....moron....and you are pretending not to understand what that post means though it was explained to you over and over.....you are a vile human being.....

Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.

27 years of actual experience in the United States....more people who own and carry guns and the gun murder rate went down 49%, not up.....gun crime went down 75%....not up...

That means you are wrong.....

This means that when the crime rates around the world go down, including in the United States by more than those around the world, normal people who own guns do not create gun murder or gun crime.

Nothing you believe about guns is even remotely accurate or true.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down, by 49%....our gun crime rate went down by 75%...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws.
Click to expand...


Your argument...

And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the Western world over the same period in countries with gun control laws.

This means that in the same period.......as more Americans owned and actually carried guns for self defense....the gun crime rates, the gun murder rates and the violent crime rates did not go up....

That means, you doofus.....that people owning guns does not increase the gun murder rate, the gun crime rate or the violent crime rate........

Gun ownership by law abiding citizens is not a factor that increases gun crime.......you doofus....

You don't know what you are talking about.

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
------------*





Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center


John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.


The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016.
Seventeen states no longer provide data on all the people who are legally carrying a concealed handgun because people in those states no longer need a permit to carry.
Permits for women and minorities continue to increase at a much faster rate than for either men or whites.
Five states now have over 1 million permit holders: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Pennsylvania, and Texas. Florida is the first state to have over 2 million permits.
And more. On personal note, I’m proud that my own state is one of those with a million-plus. That’s particularly impressive, because the last time I checked, we were only around 700,000; about 1 in 8 adults.

Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases. That’s not news to TTAG regulars, but it’s nice to see it confirmed for yet another year. In case some gun-grabbing type wants to argue that the murder rate trend is really almost flat, so it doesn’t mean anything, take a look at the CCW vs. violent crime trend. Concealed carry is up while violent crime down.

But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot _honestly_ deny it.







Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center


I


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Lott did provide the data, and if you weren't such a hack you would know that...



Why thank you, I was unaware of this other more recent controversy about Lott’s so called “research”. I referenced his failure to provide his original data when he claimed his hard drive failed and he lost all his data, along with the details of anyone he employed to obtain said data, allow me to remind you,

“Also, serious academics don’t need to create “sock puppets” to support them and can provide data when requested, something Lott has signally failed to do for his alleged 1997 study.” Post #489

Interesting paragraph from that “controversy”

“*Given the findings of ADZ(2011), even if it were true that the original data were flawless, it is entirely mis-leading to state that the original More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis has now been tested many times over the past decade and a half, with a majority “finding some support for the hypothesis that shall-issue laws reduce crime” (MLM 2013, 26).

A more helpfully accurate statement would be that the NRC’s 2005 report concluded that all of the previous articles that appeared to provide support for the More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis in fact did not provide credible statistical support for that view.”*





__





						Substance vs. Sideshows in the More Guns, Less Crime Debate: A Comment on Moody, Lott, and Marvell · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, crime, shall-issue, right-to-carry, NRC
					

Our recent work affirms the basic conclusion of the 2005 National Research Council report that there is no credible statistical support for the claim …




					econjwatch.org


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> ...there is no gun show loophole you tool. And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....











						Gun show loophole - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Montana gun control laws are some of the most permissive in the country. A Montana resident does not need a registration, license, or permit to purchase or possess firearms. A background check is not required under state law when buying a firearm in a private sale, although local ordinances may apply. Apr 8, 2019

Montana law does not prohibit sales of firearms to out-of-state residents, but federal laws and the laws of your resident state might. Montana Gun Control Laws - FindLaw

_Idaho_ is not a point of contact state for NICS. _Idaho_ has no law requiring _firearms_ dealers to initiate a _background check_ prior to transferring a firearm.

Holders of concealed weapons licenses in Idaho are exempt from background checks when purchasing a firearm. Background Check Procedures in Idaho | Giffords

I agree that Federally licenced gun dealers must carry out background checks anywhere in the USA, but laws are broken with alarming regularity, as you point out here. 





			
				 2aguy said:
			
		

> …so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks...


 post #484

“About 50,000 guns are found to be diverted to criminals across state lines every year, federal data shows, and many more are likely to cross state lines undetected.”

Interesting article on how easy it is to smuggle guns across the USA. Another argument for gun control if ever there was one.
How Gun Traffickers Get Around State Gun Laws (Published 2015)


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.



That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481

I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be *registered* for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be *vetted and licenced*, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after *extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping*.

I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work. 

As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had *one* mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? *98*. 

When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...there is no gun show loophole you tool. And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun show loophole - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Montana gun control laws are some of the most permissive in the country. A Montana resident does not need a registration, license, or permit to purchase or possess firearms. A background check is not required under state law when buying a firearm in a private sale, although local ordinances may apply. Apr 8, 2019
> 
> Montana law does not prohibit sales of firearms to out-of-state residents, but federal laws and the laws of your resident state might. Montana Gun Control Laws - FindLaw
> 
> _Idaho_ is not a point of contact state for NICS. _Idaho_ has no law requiring _firearms_ dealers to initiate a _background check_ prior to transferring a firearm.
> 
> Holders of concealed weapons licenses in Idaho are exempt from background checks when purchasing a firearm. Background Check Procedures in Idaho | Giffords
> 
> I agree that Federally licenced gun dealers must carry out background checks anywhere in the USA, but laws are broken with alarming regularity, as you point out here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> post #484
> 
> “About 50,000 guns are found to be diverted to criminals across state lines every year, federal data shows, and many more are likely to cross state lines undetected.”
> 
> Interesting article on how easy it is to smuggle guns across the USA. Another argument for gun control if ever there was one.
> How Gun Traffickers Get Around State Gun Laws (Published 2015)
Click to expand...



Private sales are individuals selling private property, you doofus.......all purchases from licensed gun dealers must  go through a federal background check.....you don't know what you are talking about...

Also, any licensed dealer at a gun show must do a federal background check, there is no gun show loophole....

Someone with a concealed carry permit in Idaho has already gone through a background check for the concealed carry permit...you doofus...

Yes....criminals smuggle guns....they even get them onto your Island...very easily....

*Analysis by the NFTC found that Merseyside and the broader north-west corridor was home to a network of gun factories converting low-calibre weapons such as the Czech-made Škorpion and Slovakian Grand Power into deadly automatic firearms.*
*


Perfect said that converting weapons was seen by some in the region as a viable business. 



A low-calibre Glock handgun bought for £135 in eastern Europe could be converted in just 90 seconds to a 9mm weapon that could be sold for up to £5,000.

-----

nalysis of the intelligence from EncroChat has revealed other surprises to firearms officers. Perfect said: 



“If you’d asked me before Venetic what was the firearm of choice for an organised crime group, I’d have absolutely said the Glock handgun. Venetic showed that the Škorpion SMG and the Grand Power are now becoming that weapon of choice.”


Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

Handguns are the next biggest category, most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========


Two shot dead on London's streets amid warnings 'fluid supply' of guns is increasingly difficult to control

The violence came as police warned that the “fluid supply” of gunswas becoming increasingly difficult to control, with gangs using new and innovative ways of smuggling them past border defences.
---

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the National Crime Agency (NCA), also warned that the “sheer volume” of firearms coming into the UK represented a “pernicious threat” that urgently needed to be addressed.

“The scale is really challenging, he told the Telegraph. “We are doing everything we can but criminals are operating in a lucrative business where they can be increasingly innovative and operate in a highly effective way.”


Last week, an Irish man found with 60 firearms in his car in Dover, en route from Calais, admitted gun smuggling.

Robert Keogh, 37, was stopped on August 2 by Border Force officers who found the weapons concealed deep inside the vehicle’s bumper and both rear quarter panels.

The number of shootings has been on the rise since 2013 and has in part being linked to the 2,000 drug supply chains identified as part of the country lines network.

Mr Brough said hand guns were being smuggled through eastern Europe, across nexus points in Belgium and the Netherlands and then onwards into the UK.

“Some of the methods criminal groups are using are incredibly sophisticated, for example, they are built into the interior of vehicles,” he said.

“The challenge at the border is the sheer volume of the operation.

“When a gun is coming in as a fast parcel, how can we find that? It’s a needle in a haystack.”

Shotguns lawfully held are being diverted into the criminal market via burglaries while other weapons are purchased blank and then converted.

Mr Brough said there was a trend towards “new and clean” guns being used for the first time that did not link to previous crimes.


“The source of them and availability leads to incidents such as we’ve seen this weekend,” he added.
========*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lott did provide the data, and if you weren't such a hack you would know that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why thank you, I was unaware of this other more recent controversy about Lott’s so called “research”. I referenced his failure to provide his original data when he claimed his hard drive failed and he lost all his data, along with the details of anyone he employed to obtain said data, allow me to remind you,
> 
> “Also, serious academics don’t need to create “sock puppets” to support them and can provide data when requested, something Lott has signally failed to do for his alleged 1997 study.” Post #489
> 
> Interesting paragraph from that “controversy”
> 
> “*Given the findings of ADZ(2011), even if it were true that the original data were flawless, it is entirely mis-leading to state that the original More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis has now been tested many times over the past decade and a half, with a majority “finding some support for the hypothesis that shall-issue laws reduce crime” (MLM 2013, 26).
> 
> A more helpfully accurate statement would be that the NRC’s 2005 report concluded that all of the previous articles that appeared to provide support for the More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis in fact did not provide credible statistical support for that view.”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Substance vs. Sideshows in the More Guns, Less Crime Debate: A Comment on Moody, Lott, and Marvell · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, crime, shall-issue, right-to-carry, NRC
> 
> 
> Our recent work affirms the basic conclusion of the 2005 National Research Council report that there is no credible statistical support for the claim …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> econjwatch.org
Click to expand...



You keep lying.....he provided that data, as the links show...you doofus....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...there is no gun show loophole you tool. And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun show loophole - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Montana gun control laws are some of the most permissive in the country. A Montana resident does not need a registration, license, or permit to purchase or possess firearms. A background check is not required under state law when buying a firearm in a private sale, although local ordinances may apply. Apr 8, 2019
> 
> Montana law does not prohibit sales of firearms to out-of-state residents, but federal laws and the laws of your resident state might. Montana Gun Control Laws - FindLaw
> 
> _Idaho_ is not a point of contact state for NICS. _Idaho_ has no law requiring _firearms_ dealers to initiate a _background check_ prior to transferring a firearm.
> 
> Holders of concealed weapons licenses in Idaho are exempt from background checks when purchasing a firearm. Background Check Procedures in Idaho | Giffords
> 
> I agree that Federally licenced gun dealers must carry out background checks anywhere in the USA, but laws are broken with alarming regularity, as you point out here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> post #484
> 
> “About 50,000 guns are found to be diverted to criminals across state lines every year, federal data shows, and many more are likely to cross state lines undetected.”
> 
> Interesting article on how easy it is to smuggle guns across the USA. Another argument for gun control if ever there was one.
> How Gun Traffickers Get Around State Gun Laws (Published 2015)
Click to expand...



You moron....you left this out of your quotes....you lying doofus...

 In Idaho, all firearms transfers by licensed dealers are processed directly through the FBI, which enforces the federal purchaser prohibitions referenced above.1


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481
> 
> I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be *registered* for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be *vetted and licenced*, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after *extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping*.
> 
> I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.
> 
> As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had *one* mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? *98*.
> 
> When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.
Click to expand...



Moron.....you only had one mass public shooting every 10 years before the ban....and after the ban in 2010...you had the Cumbria shooting....

Your gun control laws had no effect on your mass public shooting rate, you lying piece of crap.

And the shooter used a Double Barreled shotgun and a .22 caliber bolt action rifle.....

He killed 12 people......

You don't know what you are talking about...

The *Cumbria shootings* was a shooting spree which occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, taxi driver Derrick Bird, killed twelve people and injured eleven others before killing himself in Cumbria, England, United Kingdom. 


George Fisher 12 gauge double-barreled shotgun[2]
CZ 452-2E ZKM .22-calibre bolt-action rifle[3]









						Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481
> 
> I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be *registered* for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be *vetted and licenced*, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after *extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping*.
> 
> I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.
> 
> As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had *one* mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? *98*.
> 
> When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.
Click to expand...



Registering guns does nothing to stop criminals or mass public shooters, as your Cumbria shooter shows.......all it did in Britain was allow your government to scoop up the guns when they decided to ban them......

nothing you just posted stops a mass public shooter.....they don't break the law before the mass public shooting, so they pass all of your requirements....as the Cumbria shooter did, you doofus.....and he didn't have a military weapon......

And criminals can get the guns they want....as the Continent shows, since those criminals use fully automatic military rifles as the weapon of choice, they also use grenades in Sweden.......

You don't know what you are talking about....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481
> 
> I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be *registered* for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be *vetted and licenced*, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after *extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping*.
> 
> I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.
> 
> As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had *one* mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? *98*.
> 
> When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.
Click to expand...



Again, you moron........as more Americans, in our system.....own and actually carry guns in public.....the gun murder rate went down, not up, by 49%.....our gun crime rate went down, not up, by 75%.....our violent crime rate went down, not up, by 72%......

So your entire point is stupid.....

And again.......

You said that crime rates around the world went down at the same time....what you left out is that crime rates in America went down faster and more than those around the world.......

And.......

If you were correct in your views about guns and gun ownership....then when the United States started having more gun ownership, and more people carrying guns in public, we should have been going in the opposite direction for the rest of the world.....but no, we dropped our gun crime rates, and our crime rates faster and more than the other countries around the world....

That means......in "Science," that the variable of gun ownership does not increase the gun crime or gun murder rate.....

You are wrong on all counts...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...there is no gun show loophole you tool. And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun show loophole - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Montana gun control laws are some of the most permissive in the country. A Montana resident does not need a registration, license, or permit to purchase or possess firearms. A background check is not required under state law when buying a firearm in a private sale, although local ordinances may apply. Apr 8, 2019
> 
> Montana law does not prohibit sales of firearms to out-of-state residents, but federal laws and the laws of your resident state might. Montana Gun Control Laws - FindLaw
> 
> _Idaho_ is not a point of contact state for NICS. _Idaho_ has no law requiring _firearms_ dealers to initiate a _background check_ prior to transferring a firearm.
> 
> Holders of concealed weapons licenses in Idaho are exempt from background checks when purchasing a firearm. Background Check Procedures in Idaho | Giffords
> 
> I agree that Federally licenced gun dealers must carry out background checks anywhere in the USA, but laws are broken with alarming regularity, as you point out here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> post #484
> 
> “About 50,000 guns are found to be diverted to criminals across state lines every year, federal data shows, and many more are likely to cross state lines undetected.”
> 
> Interesting article on how easy it is to smuggle guns across the USA. Another argument for gun control if ever there was one.
> How Gun Traffickers Get Around State Gun Laws (Published 2015)
Click to expand...



Moron........you go to an anti-gun site to look up gun laws and you got duped by them....then you fail to quote pertinent parts of the various state laws in order to lie about those states and gun ownership....

Idaho does not require a background check to buy a gun if you have a concealed carry permit.....why?

Because to get a concealed carry permit in Idaho, you go through a background check through the state police........you idiot.

Any person applying for original issuance of a license to carry concealed weapons must submit his fingerprints with the completed license application. Within five (5) days after the filing of an application, the sheriff must forward the applicant’s completed license application and fingerprints to the Idaho state police.

 The Idaho state police must conduct a national fingerprint-based records check, an inquiry through the national instant criminal background check system and a check of any applicable state database, including a check for any mental health records for conditions or commitments that would disqualify a person from possessing a firearm under state or federal law, and return the results to the sheriff within sixty (60) days.

 If the applicant is not a United States citizen, an immigration alien query must also be conducted through United States immigration and customs enforcement or any successor agency. The sheriff shall not issue a license before receiving the results of the records check and must deny a license if the applicant is disqualified under any of the criteria listed in subsection (11) of this section. The sheriff may deny a license to carry concealed weapons to an alien if background information is not attainable or verifiable.





__





						Section 18-3302 – Idaho State Legislature
					






					legislature.idaho.gov


----------



## TroglocratsRdumb

conservatives own guns for self defense and hunting
left winger use guns for crimes
huge difference


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481
> 
> I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be *registered* for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be *vetted and licenced*, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after *extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping*.
> 
> I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.
> 
> As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had *one* mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? *98*.
> 
> When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.
Click to expand...



The gun control laws in Europe do not stop the criminals there from getting fully automatic military weapons and grenades.......

You are wrong...

Hmmmmmm....seems to me Sweden is in Europe.....Right?

*Are fully automatic military rifles banned in Europe?*

IN DEPTH: What's behind the rise in gang violence across Sweden?

The weapon of choice for gangs are Kalashnikov automatic rifles. Imported from the Balkans, they are available for between 2,500 and 3,500 euros (around $2,800 to $3,950), although they become "more expensive in the event of an open conflict," according to Appelgren.
-------

Honour, debts, and prestige are serving as the pretext for an increasing number of deadly shootings that challenge the ideals of equality and social harmony on which modern Sweden was built.
-----

Last year more than 300 shootings resulted in 45 deaths and 135 injuries in Sweden.

While the overall homicide rate remains one of the lowest in the world, with one per 100,000 inhabitants according to police statistics, *deadly shootings have been steadily rising* and last year reached record levels. 2019 is also on track to create another unwanted record. In Stockholm the first six months of the year have seen as many killings as the whole of 2018.


Is France a part of Europe?

ris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons *means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.*[

France’s real gun problem

Despite these strict laws, France seems to be awash with guns. The guns used in high-profile terror attacks are really just the tip of the iceberg. In 2012, French authorities estimated that there were around 30,000 guns illegally in the country, many likely used by gangs for criminal activities. Of those guns, around 4,000 were likely to be "war weapons," Le Figaro reported, referring to items such as the Kalashnikov AK-variant rifles and Uzis. Statistics from the National Observatory for Delinquency, a government body created in 2003, suggest that the number of guns in France has grown by double digits every year.
--------

Inside Chechen drug wars where gangs barbecue rivals & rampage with AK-47s

TERRIFIED locals fled between burning bins as hooded thugs wielding AK-47s shot into the air, torching cars through the streets of Dijon.
------
This week, violence broke out across the eastern city as hundreds of Chechens from across France descended in an orgy of revenge.
Armed thugs – some brandishing Kalashnikovs – rampaged through the streets, injuring several people, including one pizza restaurant owner reportedly hit by gunfire.

-----In many cases the AK-47 is the trademark weapon and the murder is followed by a “barbecue”, meaning the body is doused in petrol and burned, to make it harder to identify.


Reports of 'heavy gunfire' on the streets of French city of Nimes | Daily Mail Online

Machine-gun shots have been heard on the streets of a French city this evening as it was claimed a 'shootout' took place between rival gangs.

Repeated 'heavy gunfire' bursts were let off in the city of Nimes in southern France after armed men were seen in the area.

Social media videos showed several people running through the street as shots rang out at around 8.30pm.

Initial reports suggested the shooting could have been linked to gangs operating in the area.

Residents in a suburb of Pissevin district in the city claimed gang members shot at a building occupied by a rival group.


*Reports of gunfire in the district have been on the rise in recent months, according to local media*

========
Tourist killed in AK47 gang shooting in France as parents warned to ‘watch kids’

The woman was on a hired scooter when she and her husband were sprayed with bullets as they passed a gangland Kalashnikov shooting in which three people died.
---
The 57-year-old woman, whose nationality is not known, was among those killed in the bloodbath at a petrol station in Ollioules, near the Mediterranean – four miles from Toulon – on Sunday.

The vacationer's husband was injured in the shooting.

----

he men who died in the 8pm shooting were aged 29 and 30, and both had criminal records.

Other men were seen running away from the filling station, and police believe they were involved in the gunfight.
---

Detectives had today cordoned off the crime scene, where bullet holes could be seen everywhere.

From last year...

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180523/marseille-policeman-who-faced-kalashnikov-gang-they-do-not-fear-us


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lott did provide the data, and if you weren't such a hack you would know that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why thank you, I was unaware of this other more recent controversy about Lott’s so called “research”. I referenced his failure to provide his original data when he claimed his hard drive failed and he lost all his data, along with the details of anyone he employed to obtain said data, allow me to remind you,
> 
> “Also, serious academics don’t need to create “sock puppets” to support them and can provide data when requested, something Lott has signally failed to do for his alleged 1997 study.” Post #489
> 
> Interesting paragraph from that “controversy”
> 
> “*Given the findings of ADZ(2011), even if it were true that the original data were flawless, it is entirely mis-leading to state that the original More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis has now been tested many times over the past decade and a half, with a majority “finding some support for the hypothesis that shall-issue laws reduce crime” (MLM 2013, 26).
> 
> A more helpfully accurate statement would be that the NRC’s 2005 report concluded that all of the previous articles that appeared to provide support for the More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis in fact did not provide credible statistical support for that view.”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Substance vs. Sideshows in the More Guns, Less Crime Debate: A Comment on Moody, Lott, and Marvell · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, crime, shall-issue, right-to-carry, NRC
> 
> 
> Our recent work affirms the basic conclusion of the 2005 National Research Council report that there is no credible statistical support for the claim …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> econjwatch.org
Click to expand...



Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...

The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws: A Critique of the 2014 Version of Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang · Econ Journal Watch : Panel regressions, right-to-carry, shall-issue

*Abstract*
In 2005 the National Research Council (nrc) analyzed right-to-carry (rtc) laws, which relax the requirements necessary to acquire a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The nrc essentially concluded that the data were not sufficient to determine whether rtc laws increased or decreased crime. 

However, a recent working paper from Abhay Aneja, John J. Donohue, and Alexandria Zhang re-evaluates the nrc analysis and purports to find evidence that rtc laws increase murder, rape, robbery, and assault. *They make a number of choices that generate those results, but we find those choices are often unjustifiable. *

Most importantly, we note that they use only part of the available data, claiming that a regime change renders decades of data unusable—yet they did not test for the existence of a regime change, and our examination here finds little evidence that such a regime change occurred. 

*Additionally, we note that they compare states that newly adopted laws with states that already had laws, that their standard errors are biased downward, that they exclude highly significant individual state trends, that they run multiple tests without adjusting significance levels, and that they fail to report significance tests on pre- and post-law dummy coefficients.*

And here....

Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, crime, shall-issue, right-to-carry, NRC

*Abstract*
In an article titled “The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws and the NRC Report: Lessons for the Empirical Evaluation of Law and Policy” published in the _American Law and Economics Review_ in 2011, Abhay Aneja, John Donohue III, and Alexandria Zhang report on their inability to replicate regression estimates appearing in the 2005 National Research Council (NRC) report _Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review_. They suggest that there are flaws in the data that John Lott had supplied to the NRC. This suggestion could sow seeds of doubt with respect to the many studies that have used that data.

* The source of the replication problem, however, was that Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang did not estimate the correct model specification—a problem that they have acknowledged in subsequent communications. However, in these later communications they do not make clear that the basis for their doubts about the Lott-originated data has disappeared.*


----------



## Vagabond63

*sigh* You can always tell when someone destroys 2 a guy’s “arguments”, you get frantic diversion tactics in the form of a torrent of irrelevant cut and paste BS posts accompanied by ad hominem attacks which merely demonstrate to anyone even remotely interested, that he has nothing of substance to offer while simultaneously projecting his own character flaws onto anyone who dares argue against him and his gun guru messiah.

Never mind, moving on.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Private sales are individuals selling private property, you doofus.......all purchases from licensed gun dealers must go through a federal background check.....you don't know what you are talking about...
> 
> Also, any licensed dealer at a gun show must do a federal background check, there is no gun show loophole....



Oh dear, here we go. What The So-Called Gun Show Loophole Really Looks Like | Guns & America
“Private gun sales don’t require a background check, whereas purchases from a licensed dealer do. That dichotomy is on display twice a year at the Tulsa Arms Show, which calls itself the largest gun show in the world..”.

What you had was this interesting circumstance where … a licensed gun dealer set up next to a private party. Both would be selling the same gun, but they would have to abide by different laws.

That circumstance — where private sellers are exempted from conducting the background check required of gun dealers with a federal firearms license — became known as the “gun show loophole.” Gun stores, whether a local mom-and-pop or a giant chain, must obtain a federal license as a gun dealer.

Gun advocates have long claimed the gun show loophole is a myth. A “fact sheet” from the National Shooting Sports Foundation, an industry trade group, declares flatly: “There is no gun show loophole.”

The organization correctly notes that the rules for selling guns aren’t any more lax at gun shows than they would be in most parking lots.

It’s also true that most vendors at gun shows are licensed dealers.

*But many gun shows allow people who aren’t licensed dealers to rent tables too. *Some exhibitors are gun collectors who aren’t considered to be selling firearms as a business, but have plenty of guns to sell as they consolidate their collection.

At the Tulsa Arms Show, many private sellers are essentially walking billboards, advertising their guns on a backpack or by sticking a flag down the barrel of a rifle slung over their shoulder.

The “gun show loophole” might be more aptly termed the “private sale exception.” While the vast majority of guns sold in the U.S. — some estimates say more than 75 percent — are sold by licensed dealers, *sales between private citizens can be arranged online or in person at any place and any time.*


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Yes....criminals smuggle guns....they even get them onto your Island...very easily....



I’ve never denied that, although I’d not say “very”. I’ve seen numerous estimates from 500,000 to 4 million illegal firearms in the UK, sadly about as many come from the USA as Eastern Europe, thanks a bunch Yanks. Ultimately, no-one knows for sure, but as these weapons are bought by criminals, for criminals, by your own criteria, they don’t count.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Moron.....you only had one mass public shooting every 10 years before the ban....and after the ban in 2010...you had the Cumbria shooting...



Erm… the assault rifle bans came into force in 1988; the concealable handgun ban in 1997, not 2010, but I’ll assume you were frothing at the mouth too much when you were writing that post. Still ONE mass shooting as compared to NINETY EIGHT in the USA over the same period, demonstrates the effectiveness of the bans.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You said that crime rates around the world went down at the same time....what you left out is that crime rates in America went down faster and more than those around the world...



Really? Care to provide a link?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> The gun control laws in Europe do not stop the criminals there from getting fully automatic military weapons and grenades...



I never said they did, that’s not the purpose behind gun control legislation. You seem to discount criminal on criminal shootings in the USA when it comes to mass killings, but highlight criminal on criminal shootings in Europe. You appear to want to both have your cake and eat it.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...



You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:

More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime

Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).

…And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.

Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:

The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked

https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf

Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress

In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.


----------



## Vagabond63

Anyway, we’ve strayed off topic. So how many shootings were there in the UK in October?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Private sales are individuals selling private property, you doofus.......all purchases from licensed gun dealers must go through a federal background check.....you don't know what you are talking about...
> 
> Also, any licensed dealer at a gun show must do a federal background check, there is no gun show loophole....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear, here we go. What The So-Called Gun Show Loophole Really Looks Like | Guns & America
> “Private gun sales don’t require a background check, whereas purchases from a licensed dealer do. That dichotomy is on display twice a year at the Tulsa Arms Show, which calls itself the largest gun show in the world..”.
> 
> What you had was this interesting circumstance where … a licensed gun dealer set up next to a private party. Both would be selling the same gun, but they would have to abide by different laws.
> 
> That circumstance — where private sellers are exempted from conducting the background check required of gun dealers with a federal firearms license — became known as the “gun show loophole.” Gun stores, whether a local mom-and-pop or a giant chain, must obtain a federal license as a gun dealer.
> 
> Gun advocates have long claimed the gun show loophole is a myth. A “fact sheet” from the National Shooting Sports Foundation, an industry trade group, declares flatly: “There is no gun show loophole.”
> 
> The organization correctly notes that the rules for selling guns aren’t any more lax at gun shows than they would be in most parking lots.
> 
> It’s also true that most vendors at gun shows are licensed dealers.
> 
> *But many gun shows allow people who aren’t licensed dealers to rent tables too. *Some exhibitors are gun collectors who aren’t considered to be selling firearms as a business, but have plenty of guns to sell as they consolidate their collection.
> 
> At the Tulsa Arms Show, many private sellers are essentially walking billboards, advertising their guns on a backpack or by sticking a flag down the barrel of a rifle slung over their shoulder.
> 
> The “gun show loophole” might be more aptly termed the “private sale exception.” While the vast majority of guns sold in the U.S. — some estimates say more than 75 percent — are sold by licensed dealers, *sales between private citizens can be arranged online or in person at any place and any time.*
Click to expand...


That isn't a loophole....you doofus.  

The one is selling private property, which is not a crime in the United States, the other is a licensed merchant.   There is no loophole.....that implies the law allows someone to get around it....they aren't going around the law, they are not part of that law.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:
> 
> More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime
> 
> Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).
> 
> …And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.
> 
> Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:
> 
> The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
> 
> https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf
> 
> Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress
> 
> In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...



They haven't been debunked....besides.....again.....27 years of actual experience of more guns in more hands, also carried in public and the crime rates went down, not up, and that has nothing to do with Lott's research.....you have nothing.


Lott has been attacked since the day he published that work, as an anti-gun researcher............he was anti-gun when he started the research and became pro-gun after...you doofus.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:
> 
> More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime
> 
> Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).
> 
> …And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.
> 
> Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:
> 
> The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
> 
> https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf
> 
> Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress
> 
> In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...



Vox......you use Vox?   Why not the Brady Center for Gun control....you doofus.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Anyway, we’ve strayed off topic. So how many shootings were there in the UK in October?




No, you forgot to answer the actual questions....

Do you think a woman should be raped or should she be able to use a gun to stop the rape?

You haven't answered that question, and tried to deflect by going after Lott.....

Next...

If a woman stops a rape with a gun and you had the ability to go back in time and take that gun away from her, before the rape, would you?

Please answer these....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Anyway, we’ve strayed off topic. So how many shootings were there in the UK in October?




Doesn't matter how many shootings there were, the point you are dodging is whether gun control keeps criminals from getting guns in Britain...it doesn't.  Britain has always had a low murder rate, with guns or without, even when they had access to guns.......the question is whether gun control stops them from getting guns....it does not.

Also, as to your other failed point...when you tried to say that crime rates went down around the world.......and then have to face the fact that gun crime rates in the U.S. went down faster in the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns.........the variable of gun ownership did not increase gun crime in the U.S.....showing you have no point.........all countries experienced lower crime rates, including the U.S. as it increased gun ownership.......showing guns in the hands of law abiding people does not increase the gun crime rate...

*There are at least two problems with these claims. 
First, homicide rates have been in decline throughout western Europe, Canada, and the United States since the early 1990s. The fact that the same trend was followed in Australia is hardly evidence of a revolutionary achievement.

 Second, homicides were already so unusual in Australia, even before the 1996 legislation, that few lessons can be learned from slight movements either up or down in homicide rates*
*-----
Part of the reason that the collection of homicide data in Australia is so recent a phenomenon is because it has tended to be so rare. Politically, it simply wasn't a national priority. Australia is a small country, with only a few more million people than Florida spread out over an entire continent. In the relatively high homicide days of the early 1990s, Australia's homicides totaled around 300. This means in a bad crime year, in which homicides increase by only 20 or 30 victims, it could swing overall rates noticeably.
-----
This brings us to our other problem with using post-1996 homicide data as definitive proof of anything. The numbers are too small to allow us to extrapolate much. As data analyst Leah Libresco wrote in 2017 in The Washington Post:*


> *I researched the strictly tightened gun laws in Britain and Australia and concluded that they didn’t prove much about what America’s policy should be. Neither nation experienced drops in mass shootings or other gun related-crime that could be attributed to their buybacks and bans. Mass shootings were too rare in Australia for their absence after the buyback program to be clear evidence of progress. And in both Australia and Britain, the gun restrictions had an ambiguous effect on other gun-related crimes or deaths...
> ---
> Faced with a lack of evidence that the 1996 law caused Australia to follow the same trend in homicides as both the US and Canada, advocates for laws like Australia's then fall back on the strategy of pointing out that Australia's homicide rates are lower than the US's. The problem with this strategy, of course, is that Australia's homicide rates were not comparable to those in the US either before or after 1996. The causes of the difference in rates between the two countries obviously pre-date modern gun regulation measures in both countries. (We might also point out that several US states—some of which have very lax gun laws—have very low homicide rates comparable to Australia's.)
> Attempts to explain this away have been numerous, and in many ways, justifying gun control policy has come down to endless attempts at using regression analysis to find correlations between gun policy and homicide rates. These can often be interesting, but their value often rests on finding the right theoretical framework with which to identify the most important factors.
> Those who work in public policy and who lack a good foundation in broader issues around criminality tend to just go directly to legal prohibitions as the key factor in homicide rates. But this isn't exactly the approach taken by those who engage in more serious study of long-term trends in homicides.
> Famed crime researcher Eric Monkonnen, for example, in his essay "Homicide: Explaining America's Exceptionalism," identified four factors he thought most likely explained the higher rates in the United States: the mobility of the population, decentralized law enforcement, racial division caused by slavery, and a generally higher tolerance for homicide. Monkonnen concludes: "To assume that an absence of guns in the United States would bring about parity with Europe is wrong. For the past two centuries, even without guns, American rates would likely have still been higher."
> Monkonnen's conclusions on this matter don't necessarily make him laissez-faire on gun control. But they do illustrate his recognition of the fact that factors driving differences in homicide rates between two very different societies go far beyond pointing to one or two pieces of legislation. And if gun control laws are to be posited as the cause of declines in homicide, there needs to be a clear "before and after difference" in the jurisdiction in whic
> -----
> Perhaps recognizing that homicide rates haven't actually changed all that much in the wake of 1996, some defenders of Australia's gun legislation have tried to gild the lily by claiming that an additional benefit of legislation has been a decline in suicide rates. This is a common strategy among gun control advocates who often like to claim gun control is a suicide prevention measure.
> For example, it's not difficult to find media headlines proclaiming "suicide figures plummeted" in Australia after the adoption of the 1996 law. But Australia runs into a similar problem here as with gun control: suicide rates fell substantially during the same period in Canada, the US, and much of Europe.*
> *Moreover, in recent years, suicide rates in Australia and the US have climbed upward again. There's little doubt that suicide rates fell from 1995 to 2006, dropping from 12 per 100,000 to under nine per 100,000. But after that, suicide rates climbed to a ten-year high in 2015, rising again to 12 per 100,000, or a rate comparable to what existed before the 1996 gun measure. In other words, suicides are back to where they were. But as recently as 2017, we're still hearing about how gun control also makes suicides decline.*





The Myth That Australia's Gun Laws Reduced Gun Homicides | Ryan McMaken


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:
> 
> More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime
> 
> Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).
> 
> …And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.
> 
> Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:
> 
> The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
> 
> https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf
> 
> Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress
> 
> In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...



Okay, dipshit.....

1)   Vox talks suicide....mass public shootings in gun free zones, and guns making you safer.......

your link says Lott dismisses the link between guns and suicide....so does the Psychiatric community...

*Lott dismisses the link between guns and suicide*









						The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
					

John Lott Jr. gets respectful treatment from the media, but his "scholarship" withers under scrutiny.




					www.vox.com
				




Now the Psychiatric community....

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide

*There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.**  According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.:  Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000.  By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.   *

*Suicide is a mental health issue.  If guns are not available other means are used.  

Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%)

. 
Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article.  The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited.  Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows:  Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).
Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)*

*Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics.  According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent.  Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S. *
========


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:
> 
> More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime
> 
> Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).
> 
> …And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.
> 
> Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:
> 
> The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
> 
> https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf
> 
> Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress
> 
> In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...



Mass public shootings in gun free zones......Lott is right....when shooters choose their targets that have no connection to them, they choose gun free zones...

Like the Sandy Hook shooter...who attended the elementary school, the middle school and the high school, only the elementary school lacked a police resource officer....you doofus....

Now Lott, and other sources...

Mass Shootings in Gun-Free Zones | The American Spectator | USA News and PoliticsThe American Spectator | USA News and Politics

*According to ABC News, El Paso law enforcement officials advise that, moments before his killing rampage, the shooter cased the Walmart “looking for Mexicans.” While that may be so, it is nevertheless true that, consistent with his “manifesto,” his recon was also calculated to make sure that he would be attacking in a low-security area. In that regard, the Walmart store had no armed security guard, no police presence, and was located in a shopping mall that was a self-proclaimed “gun-free zone.”*
*Similarly, in the Dayton, Ohio, mass shooting on Sunday, which immediately followed the El Paso murders, the victims were attacked as they exited a nightspot that was a gun-free zone. 
And, in the Garlic Festival shootings in Gilroy, California last week, the victims were trapped inside a fenced area after going through metal detectors to make sure that they were disarmed. The shooter avoided the metal detectors by cutting through the fence and then attacking a victim pool that the Gilroy authorities had rendered incapable of defending themselves.
So it is that these most recent massacres share the one common element of almost all mass casualty shootings: gun-free zones.In addition to the El Paso shooter’s “manifesto,” there is abundant anecdotal evidence that mass casualty shooters prefer gun-free zones. For example, in 2016, Dearborn Heights, Michigan, ISIS supporter Khalil Abu Rayyan had an online discussion with an undercover FBI agent in which he discussed his plan for a “martyrdom operation” by attacking a Detroit church. He told the agent that this would be an easy target because “people are not allowed to carry guns in church.” Fortunately, Abu Rayyan was arrested before he could achieve martyrdom.
Similarly, in 2015, Elliot Rodger murdered six people in a Santa Barbara, California, gun-free zone. In his 141-page “manifesto,” he explained that in planning his attack he had decided against launching it in other locations where someone with a gun might be present to cut short his killing spree.
In the 2012 Aurora, Colorado, theater massacre, the killer’s diary showed that he had decided against attacking an airport because of its “substantial security.” And, out of the seven movie theaters within 20 minutes of the shooter’s home, he chose the only one that had posted signs declaring it to be a gun-free zone.
Given this record, anyone concerned with eliminating — or at least substantially reducing — mass public shootings must ask whether or not gun-free zones pose a danger to the public by attracting killers who prefer an unarmed victim pool and should give serious consideration to the following propositions:



3/3-/18

Orlando, Pulse Night club shooter wanted to attack Disney land

http://fox6now.com/2018/03/28/pulse-shooters-initial-target-was-disney-site-prosecutors-say/


Prosecutors say the Orlando nightclub shooter intended to attack Disney World’s shopping and entertainment complex by hiding a gun in a stroller but became spooked by police and chose the gay club as his target.

3/5/18
Profile of a School Shooter | National Review

The second thing: The shooter reveals that he thought seriously about whether his target would be a “gun free zone.” I mention this not to endorse any particular policy, but to make it clear that it is by no means rare for those who would do harm to first scope out their destinations and to make sure that they won’t encounter much resistance. The shooter openly explains that he chose the local elementary school, rather than the school he was really angry with (his own), because it lacked an armed guard. He also admits to having researched how long it took cops to respond in the area (15 minutes), and how long it would be before SWAT was on site (45 minutes). This echoes comments made by the shooter at Isla Vista, who considered carrying out his attack on Halloween, but decided against it because there’d be “too many cops walking around during an event like Halloween, and cops are the only ones who can hinder my plans.”

The actual story linked above...
*


> *
> “I HAVE TO BEAT **** **** . .” he wrote nine days before the Sept. 28, 2016, shooting in a misspelled reference to the Sandy Hook killer,**** ****. “Atleast 40.”
> 
> Two days later, he debated whether he should attack his middle school, from which he’d been expelled, or his elementary school, just up the road.
> 
> He decided on Townville Elementary because it was closer and had no armed security.
> 
> 
> “Itll be like shooting fish in a barrel,” he wrote his friends, whose identities remain unclear, along with whether the FBI has tracked any of them down. The agency declined to comment, citing Jesse’s open case.
> 
> In the chat, he said he had researched police response times for the area and found that it would take them 15 minutes to get there, maybe 45 for SWAT. He said he would throw pipe bombs into each classroom before he got in a shootout with police and killed himself with his shotgun. He said he had been planning a massacre for two years.
> *


*
=========


The Colorado theater shooter evidence...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012...ingle-out-cinemark-theater.html#ixzz2F4pLqhxu

Yet, neither explanation is right. Instead, out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, it was the only one where guns were banned. In Colorado, individuals with permits can carry concealed handgun in most malls, stores, movie theaters, and restaurants. But private businesses can determine whether permit holders can carry guns on their private property.
Most movie theaters allow permit holders carrying guns. But the Cinemark movie theater was the only one with a sign posted at the theater’s entrance.
A simple web search and some telephone calls reveal how easily one can find out how Cinemark compared to other movie theaters. According to mapquest.com and movies.com, there were seven movie theaters showing "The Dark Knight Rises" on July 20th within 20 minutes of the killer’s apartment at 1690 Paris St, Aurora, Colorado. At 4 miles and an 8-minute car ride, the Cinemark’s Century Theater wasn't the closest. Another theater was only 1.2 miles (3 minutes) away.
There was also a theater just slightly further away, 10 minutes. It is the "home of Colorado's largest auditorium," according to their movie hotline greeting message. The potentially huge audience ought to have been attractive to someone trying to kill as many people as possible. Four other theaters were 18 minutes, two at 19 minutes, and 20 minutes away. But all of those theaters allowed permitted concealed handguns.
So why would a mass shooter pick a place that bans guns? The answer should be obvious, though it apparently is not clear to the media – disarming law-abiding citizens leaves them as sitting ducks


FBI: Dearborn Heights ISIS supporter planned to attack Detroit church

In conversation's between Abu-Rayyan and the undercover agent, Abu-Rayyan described his desire to commit a martyrdom operation.

The complaint filed in federal court doesn’t specify which Detroit church he was allegedly planning to attack, only that it was close and could seat 6,000 members.

The complaint quotes Abu-Rayyan saying:

“It's easy, and a lot of people go there. Plus people are not allowed to carry guns in church. Plus it would make the news. Everybody would've heard. Honestly I regret not doing it. If I can't do jihad in the Middle East, I would do my jihad over here."

He had also told the undercover agent that a church would be an easy target because people are not allowed to carry guns there and that it would make the news.

----------------
Minnesota…...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...prep-school-massacre-police-article-1.1776006

The unhinged teen told cops, after being busted Tuesday, that he planned to shoot his sister, mom and dad with a .22-caliber rifle before he went to a rural field and set a fire to distract cops.
The 11th-grader then said he planned to go to Waseca Junior and Senior High School where he would toss Molotov cocktails and explode pressure-cooker bombs to try and kill “as many students as he could” in the cafeteria during lunchtime.
About 1,000 students, in 7th through 12th grade, attend the school.
LaDue, according to the notebook of his plan, would kill the school resource officer before continuing to kill other students. He was prepared to be gunned down by a SWAT Team, police said.


************************


Vince Vaughn is right about guns (and was brave to be so honest) | Fox News

Last June, Elliot Rodger, who killed six people in Santa Barbara, Calif., explained his own choice. In his 141-page “Manifesto,” Rodger turned down alternate targets because he worried that someone with a gun would cut short his killing spree.

That same month, Justin Bourque shot to death three people in Canada. His Facebook page made fun of gun bans, with pictures of defenseless victims explaining to killers that they weren’t allowed to have guns.

The diary of the Aurora, Colorado, “Batman” movie theater killer, James Holmes, was finally released this past week. It was clear that he was considering both attacking an airport and a movie theater, but he turned down the airport option because he was concerned about their “substantial security.”

Of course, there are numerous other examples such as the Columbine killersopposing the concealed carry law that was then working its way through the state legislature. The bill would have allowed people to carry permitted concealed handguns on school property. The killers timed their attack for the very day that final passage of the law was planned for in the legislature.

If you go to the link for the Colorado theater shooter they have a photo of his journal where he has notes about airports…..he lists one of the items…."Substantial Security"

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/james-holmes-notebook-dragged.pdf
**************

Sandy hook, did not have police resource officer

http://gunwars.news21.com/blog/2014/07/building-a-safer-sandy-hook/
*
*The high school and middle school, which already had armed resource officers, doubled down on security and restricted all visitors that didn’t have prior permission to enter.*

The Vox author is an idiot.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:
> 
> More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime
> 
> Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).
> 
> …And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.
> 
> Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:
> 
> The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
> 
> https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf
> 
> Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress
> 
> In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...



Moron, you vox source lies.....they claim that Lott only says gun free zones means civilians can't carry weapons when Lott specifically means areas with high security and the ability of people to carry guns.....actual gun free zones, you doofus.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:
> 
> More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime
> 
> Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).
> 
> …And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.
> 
> Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:
> 
> The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
> 
> https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf
> 
> Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress
> 
> In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...



Then your other link is simply an attack on the NRA, you dumb ass.....wow, that's unbiased....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:
> 
> More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime
> 
> Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).
> 
> …And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.
> 
> Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:
> 
> The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked
> 
> https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf
> 
> Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress
> 
> In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
Click to expand...



Research showing guns stop crime.....



> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53714acce4b0bb13e3c90e93/t/53c97327e4b00a460e54c128/1405711143901/2009_Hinckley_Journal.pdf#page=63
> 
> CONCLUSION It is difficult to make a strong conclusion on the impact concealed carry permits have on crime because there are studies that show contradictory results. However, based on the thorough research conducted by John R. Lott (2003), the evidence from the case study in Dade County, and the research conducted by Kleck and Mertz (1995), it appears that benefits of allowing law abiding citizens to carry a concealed weapon outweigh the negatives that guns can bring upon a society. The concerns mentioned above against the policy are not substantiated by the evidence available. The evidence suggests that children are more likely to drown or die in a bicycle accident then they are to die from a loaded unlocked gun. In addition, private gun owners are far less likely to mistakenly kill someone then a police officer is (Lott Jr., 1998). Ultimately the policy appears to be effective in terms of crime reduction.
> 
> http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Maltz.pdf
> 
> 
> _Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_
> 
> Our results indicated that the direction of effect of the shall-issue law on total SHR homicide rates was similar to that obtained by Lott and Mustard, although the magnitude of the effect was somewhat smaller and was statistically significant at the 7 percent level. In our analysis, which included only counties with a 1977 population of 100,000 or more,* laws allowing for concealed weapons were associated with a 6.52 percent reduction in total homicides (Table 2).* By comparison, Lott and Mustard found the concealed weapon dummy variable to be associated with a 7.65 percent reduction in total homicides across all counties and a 9 percent reduction in homicides when only large counties (populations of 100,000 or more) were included.43
> ====
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Plassmann_Whitley.pdf
> 
> *COMMENTS
> 
> Confirming ìMore Guns, Less Crimeî Florenz Plassmann* & John Whitley***
> 
> CONCLUSION Analyzing county-level data for the entire United States from 1977 to 2000, we find annual reductions in murder rates between 1.5% and 2.3% for each additional year that a right-to-carry law is in effect.
> 
> For the first five years that such a law is in effect, the total benefit from reduced crimes usually ranges between about $2 and $3 billion per year.
> 
> The results are very similar to earlier estimates using county-level data from 1977 to 1996. We appreciate the continuing effort that Ayres and Donohue have made in discussing the impact of right-to-carry laws on crime rates. Yet we believe that both the new evidence provided by them as well as our new results show consistently that right-to-carry laws reduce crime and save lives. Unfortunately, a few simple mistakes lead Ayres and Donohue to incorrectly claim that crime rates significantly increase after right-to-carry laws are initially adopted and to misinterpret the significance of their own estimates that examined the year-to-year impact of the law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ====
> 
> http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content...An-Exercise-in-Replication.proof_.revised.pdf
> 
> ~ The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws on Crime: An Exercise in Replication1
> 
> Carlisle E. Moody College of William and Mary - Department of Economics, Virginia 23187, U.S.A. E-mail: cemood@wm.edu Thomas B. Marvell Justec Research, Virginia 23185, U.S.A. Paul R. Zimmerman U.S. Federal Trade Commission - Bureau of Economics, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. Fasil Alemante College of William and Mary, Virginia 23187, U.S.A.
> 
> 
> Abstract: In an article published in 2011, Aneja, Donohue and Zhang found that shall-issue or right-to-carry (RTC) concealed weapons laws have no effect on any crime except for a positive effect on assault.
> 
> This paper reports a replication of their basic findings and some corresponding robustness checks, which reveal a serious omitted variable problem.
> 
> *Once corrected for omitted variables, the most robust result, confirmed using both county and state data, is that RTC laws significantly reduce murder.
> ====*
> 
> 
> 
> *An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates*
> Mark Gius
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> The purpose of the present study is to determine the effects of state-level assault weapons bans and concealed weapons laws on state-level murder rates.
> 
> *Using data for the period 1980 to 2009 and controlling for state and year fixed effects, the results of the present study suggest that states with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states.*
> 
> It was also found that assault weapons bans did not significantly affect murder rates at the state level. These results suggest that restrictive concealed weapons laws may cause an increase in gun-related murders at the state level. The results of this study are consistent with some prior research in this area, most notably Lott and Mustard (1997).
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ===
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here.._
> 
> 
> *Summary and Conclusion*
> 
> Many articles have been published finding that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one article, by Ayres and Donohue who employ a model that combines a dummy variable with a post-law trend, claims to find that shall-issue laws increase crime.
> 
> However, the only way that they can produce the result that shall-issue laws increase crime is to confine the span of analysis to five years
> 
> .* We show, using their own estimates, that if they had extended their analysis by one more year, they would have concluded that these laws reduce crime.*
> 
> Since most states with shallissue laws have had these laws on the books for more than five years, and the law will presumably remain on the books for some time, the only relevant analysis extends beyond five years. We extend their analysis by adding three more years of data, control for the effects of crack cocaine, control for dynamic effects, and correct the standard errors for clustering.
> 
> *We find that there is an initial increase in crime due to passage of the shall-issue law that is dwarfed over time by the decrease in crime associated with the post-law trend.
> 
> These results are very similar to those of Ayres and Donohue, properly interpreted.*
> 
> The modified Ayres and Donohue model finds that shall-issue laws significantly reduce murder and burglary across all the adopting states. These laws appear to significantly increase assault, and have no net effect on rape, robbery, larceny, or auto theft. However, in the long run only the trend coefficients matter. We estimate a net benefit of $450 million per year as a result of the passage of these laws. We also estimate that, up through 2000, there was a cumulative overall net benefit of these laws of $28 billion since their passage. We think that there is credible statistical evidence that these laws lower the costs of crime. But at the very least, the present study should neutralize any “more guns, more crime” thinking based on Ayres and Donohue’s work in the Stanford Law Review
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Lott mustard..
> 
> https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1150&context=law_and_economics
Click to expand...


Taking apart ayre and donahue one....


_“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here..
_

*Abstract*
_“Shall-issue” laws require authorities to issue concealed-weapons permits to anyone who applies, unless the applicant has a criminal record or a history of mental illness. A large number of studies indicate that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one study, an influential paper in the Stanford Law Review (2003) by Ian Ayres and John J. Donohue iii, implies that these laws lead to an increase in crime. We apply an improved version of the Ayres and Donohue method to a more extensive data set. Our analysis, as well as Ayres and Donohue’s when projected beyond a five-year span, indicates that shall-issue laws decrease crime and the costs of crime. Purists in statistical analysis object with some cause to some of methods employed both by Ayres and Donohue and by us. But our paper upgrades Ayres and Donohue, so, until the next study comes along, our paper should neutralize Ayres and Donohue’s “more guns, more crime” conclusion._
_Summary and Conclusion Many articles have been published finding that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one article, by Ayres and Donohue who employ a model that combines a dummy variable with a post-law trend, claims to find that shall-issue laws increase crime. However, the only way that they can produce the result that shall-issue laws increase crime is to confine the span of analysis to five years. We show, using their own estimates, that if they had extended their analysis by one more year, they would have concluded that these laws reduce crime. Since most states with shallissue laws have had these laws on the books for more than five years, and the law will presumably remain on the books for some time, the only relevant analysis extends beyond five years. We extend their analysis by adding three more years of data, control for the effects of crack cocaine, control for dynamic effects, and correct the standard errors for clustering. We find that there is an initial increase in crime due to passage of the shall-issue law that is dwarfed over time by the decrease in crime associated with the post-law trend. These results are very similar to those of Ayres and Donohue, properly interpreted. The modified Ayres and Donohue model finds that shall-issue laws significantly reduce murder and burglary across all the adopting states. These laws appear to significantly increase assault, and have no net effect on rape, robbery, larceny, or auto theft. However, in the long run only the trend coefficients matter. We estimate a net benefit of $450 million per year as a result of the passage of these laws. We also estimate that, up through 2000, there was a cumulative overall net benefit of these laws of $28 billion since their passage. We think that there is credible statistical evidence that these laws lower the costs of crime. But at the very least, the present study should neutralize any “more guns, more crime” thinking based on Ayres and Donohue’s work in the Stanford Law Review. We acknowledge that, especially in light of the methodological issues of the literature in general, the magnitudes derived from our analysis of crime statistics and the supposed costs of crime might be dwarfed by other considerations in judging the policy issue. Some might contend that allowing individuals to carry a concealed weapon is a moral or cultural bad. Others might contend that greater liberty is a moral or cultural good. All we are confident in saying is that the evidence, such as it is, seems to support the hypothesis that the shall-issue law is generally beneficial with respect to its overall long run effect on crime._


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....criminals smuggle guns....they even get them onto your Island...very easily....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve never denied that, although I’d not say “very”. I’ve seen numerous estimates from 500,000 to 4 million illegal firearms in the UK, sadly about as many come from the USA as Eastern Europe, thanks a bunch Yanks. Ultimately, no-one knows for sure, but as these weapons are bought by criminals, for criminals, by your own criteria, they don’t count.
Click to expand...



And yet you don't use the same excuse when I explain that our gun murders are concentrated among actual criminals........while normal people have guns and our gun murder rate went down, not up.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> 27 years of actual experience of more guns in more hands, also carried in public and the crime rates went down...



So on the one hand, you claim more unregistered guns in private hands results in a reduction in crime, and on the other hand your latest Jon (lies a) Lott "research" clearly demonstrates that although gun purchases have sky rocketed, gun crime hasn't shown an equal corresponding dive. Interesting.


----------



## Vagabond63

Anyway, back to topic. How many shootings were there in the UK last month? I've found 2 in November so far, surprised you've not frothed about them.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 27 years of actual experience of more guns in more hands, also carried in public and the crime rates went down...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So on the one hand, you claim more unregistered guns in private hands results in a reduction in crime, and on the other hand your latest Jon (lies a) Lott "research" clearly demonstrates that although gun purchases have sky rocketed, gun crime hasn't shown an equal corresponding dive. Interesting.
Click to expand...



You again, don't know what you are talking about.

1)  As more Americans went out and now own and carry guns, our gun crime rate did not go up, our gun murder rate did not go up.  You know this, you have been shown this.  You pretend not to know what this means.  

When the global crime rate was going down, Americans were buying lots of guns.....and over 27 years our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, our violent crime rate went down 72%.

If your theory is correct, our gun crime rate should have gone up....it did not, it went down.

This means that the variable of gun ownership does not increase the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate, making gun control laws silly and pointlesswhen they target normal gun owners.

Gun ownership does not increase gun crime or gun murder...that is what America shows.  You know this, yet pretend to not understand it.

2)  Our current gun crime rate is confined almost exclusively to the cities completely controlled by the democrat party, and their criminal justice policies......they attack the police and defund them, they release violent, known criminals over and over again.   

Normal people owning and carrying guns is not driving the gun crime rate in democrat party controlled cities...their polices of attacking police and releasing violent gun criminals, with multiple felonies, over and over again.

So again, you don't understand anything you are posting about.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Anyway, back to topic. How many shootings were there in the UK last month? I've found 2 in November so far, surprised you've not frothed about them.




You keep trying to make a point with the number of shootings in Britain.....you have been shown over and over that Britain has always had a very low murder rate and a very low gun murder rate even when British citizens were able to own guns.......access to guns does not increase the gun murder rate or control it.....as the 27 year experience in America shows.

The willingness of criminals to murder each other and innocent victims is what determines your gun murder rate.

You know this, you pretend to not understand it.

Meanwhile...in the United States.....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders...saving lives.  This number comes from our Centers for Disease control research.

Lives saved because Americans can own and carry guns.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Anyway, back to topic. How many shootings were there in the UK last month? I've found 2 in November so far, surprised you've not frothed about them.




And back to the questions you refuse to answer...

Would it be better for you if a woman is raped, brutally and possibly murdered, or that she be able to save herself using a gun?

If a woman uses a gun to stop a rape, and you had the ability to go back in time to take that gun away from her...would you?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> As more Americans went out and now own and carry guns, our gun crime rate did not go up, our gun murder rate did not go up.



Without proper registration, monitoring and control, you have absolutely no idea of how many Americans bought how many guns. It is therefore equally valid to state that the same number of Americans just added 1-10+ more guns to their gun existing collections; also gun permits do not necessarily mean guns are owned by everyone with a permit, just like everyone who has a driving licence doesn’t necessarily own a car, while others have more than one car.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> If your theory is correct, our gun crime rate should have gone up



Might be someone’s theory, but it’s never been mine.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> This means that the variable of gun ownership does not increase the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate,



Neither does it decrease the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate. Without proper registration and reporting you cannot prove your theory of “more guns in private hands = less crime”. If anything, more guns in private hands makes life easier for professional criminals to acquire guns illegally. So called “responsible gun owners” are even able to sell their “private property” to anyone. Do you seriously think criminals don’t go to gun fairs for that very reason?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Our current gun crime rate is confined almost exclusively to the cities completely controlled by the democrat party, and their criminal justice policies...



I see you voted for Trump, no surprise then, that you keep repeating this drivel.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Meanwhile...in the United States.....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders...saving lives. This number comes from our Centers for Disease control research.



No it doesn’t. This comes from Gleck & Co. projections based on an extrapolated telephone sample. Depends on where you look but ESTIMATES and/or PROJECTIONS based on these sample surveys range from 180,000 to 2.5 million ( the latter, a figure you used to quote ad nauseam until you were laughed off the board).


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> And back to the questions you refuse to answer...



I tend not to answer pointless non-question questions or “questions” that are in reality, Appeal to Emotion fallacies, which incidentally prove that you have no factual evidence to offer; you just peddle fear.

I could just as easily ask you, “Would it be better for you if a child finds a gun and kills themselves with a legal gun that was carelessly left lying around, or that the owner should have had compulsory and sufficient training in how to store a gun safely in order to obtain a gun permit and/or gun? Texas boy, 3, dies after accidentally shooting himself in the chest at birthday party

Oh, as for time travel, that opens up a whole new can of worms. Ever read A sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury? A Sound of Thunder - Wikipedia Very prescient.


----------



## Vagabond63

So, no shootings in October and 2 so far in November in the UK... oops no, found another 2, that makes 4, with all our gun control laws. How many in the USA in that time? Shall I start looking, just for comparative purposes?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As more Americans went out and now own and carry guns, our gun crime rate did not go up, our gun murder rate did not go up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without proper registration, monitoring and control, you have absolutely no idea of how many Americans bought how many guns. It is therefore equally valid to state that the same number of Americans just added 1-10+ more guns to their gun existing collections; also gun permits do not necessarily mean guns are owned by everyone with a permit, just like everyone who has a driving licence doesn’t necessarily own a car, while others have more than one car.
Click to expand...



There is no need to register guns.  No reason at all.  The one reason anti-gunners want registration is so that when they have the political power, they can ban and confiscate them.

So, you don't know what you are talking about, again.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> So, no shootings in October and 2 so far in November in the UK... oops no, found another 2, that makes 4, with all our gun control laws. How many in the USA in that time? Shall I start looking, just for comparative purposes?




Again.....your criminals have guns.  They get them even though they are on an island.   Your criminals do not use those guns to commit murder as often as criminals in our democrat party controlled cities do.

Our problem isn't guns...our problem is the democrat party that keeps releasing violent gun offenders over and over again.  It is these specific criminals doing 95% of our gun crime. 

So, you don't understand the issue, you bring up irrelevant points that do not address the issues or the problem.


You stated that crime around the world went down a the same time.....you failed to mention that crime in the U.S. went down more and faster than crime around the world.

As crime was going down around the world, more and more Americans were buying guns, and actually carrying them in public.

Our gun crime rate went down 49%, our gun murder rate went down 75%........the one variable that was different with the United States as crime around the entire world was going down.......had no effect on the gun crime rate or the crime rate in general...

So, again, you don't know what you are talking about, you don't understand the issues.


Guns in the hands of normal people are not a problem.  Britain had a low gun murder rate before they banned guns...so banning guns did not lower the gun murder rate, and it did not stop your criminals from getting guns.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile...in the United States.....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders...saving lives. This number comes from our Centers for Disease control research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it doesn’t. This comes from Gleck & Co. projections based on an extrapolated telephone sample. Depends on where you look but ESTIMATES and/or PROJECTIONS based on these sample surveys range from 180,000 to 2.5 million ( the latter, a figure you used to quote ad nauseam until you were laughed off the board).
Click to expand...



You are a moron....I use the Centers for Disease Control number because then you guys can't lie about Kleck.....I also use the Department of Justice number of 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year, and I will also post the numbers Kleck found....showing all of those studies......

Notice...you ding bat......how high the number of gun uses are for normal, good people, fighting off violent criminals each year....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And back to the questions you refuse to answer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tend not to answer pointless non-question questions or “questions” that are in reality, Appeal to Emotion fallacies, which incidentally prove that you have no factual evidence to offer; you just peddle fear.
> 
> I could just as easily ask you, “Would it be better for you if a child finds a gun and kills themselves with a legal gun that was carelessly left lying around, or that the owner should have had compulsory and sufficient training in how to store a gun safely in order to obtain a gun permit and/or gun? Texas boy, 3, dies after accidentally shooting himself in the chest at birthday party
> 
> Oh, as for time travel, that opens up a whole new can of worms. Ever read A sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury? A Sound of Thunder - Wikipedia Very prescient.
Click to expand...



Again, you don't want to answer the question, so I will repeat it.

Is it better that a woman is violently raped, tortured and murdered, or that she use a gun to stop the attack?

If a woman uses a gun to keep from being raped, would you go back in time and take that gun away from her?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And back to the questions you refuse to answer...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tend not to answer pointless non-question questions or “questions” that are in reality, Appeal to Emotion fallacies, which incidentally prove that you have no factual evidence to offer; you just peddle fear.
> 
> I could just as easily ask you, “Would it be better for you if a child finds a gun and kills themselves with a legal gun that was carelessly left lying around, or that the owner should have had compulsory and sufficient training in how to store a gun safely in order to obtain a gun permit and/or gun? Texas boy, 3, dies after accidentally shooting himself in the chest at birthday party
> 
> Oh, as for time travel, that opens up a whole new can of worms. Ever read A sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury? A Sound of Thunder - Wikipedia Very prescient.
Click to expand...



Your question is dumb.

The majority of children killed in gun accidents are in homes with criminals or drug users who 1) can't legally own a gun in the first place, 2) would not obey your dumb laws.....

So....your gun laws wouldn't save those children....

Meanwhile....

Accidental deaths of children in the U.S. by gun 


600 million guns in private hands.

Over 19.5 million Americans can legally carry a gun in public for self defense...

Accidental deaths of children with guns? * 54

Deaths in cars......2,456*


Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

*2018......

Guns......54*

Motor vehicle..... 2,456

Suffocation:  1,162

*Drowning: 698

Poisoning:  66

Traffic: 2,456

Guns: 54*


Let me repeat the statistics.....

Guns in the U.S.......more than 600 million in private hands.

Over 19.5 million American can legally carry a gun in public.

Deaths by gun for children?  54.

Number of Americans who use guns each year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders....

CDC....1.1 million

Department of Justice....1.5 million

Dr. Gary Kleck....2.5 million

Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This means that the variable of gun ownership does not increase the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither does it decrease the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate. Without proper registration and reporting you cannot prove your theory of “more guns in private hands = less crime”. If anything, more guns in private hands makes life easier for professional criminals to acquire guns illegally. So called “responsible gun owners” are even able to sell their “private property” to anyone. Do you seriously think criminals don’t go to gun fairs for that very reason?
Click to expand...



You can't say that while actual studies show that gun ownership does lower the crime rate...

And specifically, it lowers the crime rate for the victim who stops a rape, robbery or murder with a gun........

And again.....

You stated crime rates around the world went down at the same time........While in the U.S. as the crime rates went down more, and more quickly, more Americans own and carry guns........

So your entire fear of guns is unfounded and irrational...since guns in the hands of normal people does not increase gun crime or murder, and in fact, saves lives....

Papers that show gun ownership lowers the crime rate...

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...05711143901/2009_Hinckley_Journal.pdf#page=63
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...05711143901/2009_Hinckley_Journal.pdf#page=63
CONCLUSION It is difficult to make a strong conclusion on the impact concealed carry permits have on crime because there are studies that show contradictory results. However, based on the thorough research conducted by John R. Lott (2003), the evidence from the case study in Dade County, and the research conducted by Kleck and Mertz (1995), it appears that benefits of allowing law abiding citizens to carry a concealed weapon outweigh the negatives that guns can bring upon a society. The concerns mentioned above against the policy are not substantiated by the evidence available. The evidence suggests that children are more likely to drown or die in a bicycle accident then they are to die from a loaded unlocked gun. In addition, private gun owners are far less likely to mistakenly kill someone then a police officer is (Lott Jr., 1998). Ultimately the policy appears to be effective in terms of crime reduction.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Maltz.pdf


_Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_

Our results indicated that the direction of effect of the shall-issue law on total SHR homicide rates was similar to that obtained by Lott and Mustard, although the magnitude of the effect was somewhat smaller and was statistically significant at the 7 percent level. In our analysis, which included only counties with a 1977 population of 100,000 or more,* laws allowing for concealed weapons were associated with a 6.52 percent reduction in total homicides (Table 2).* By comparison, Lott and Mustard found the concealed weapon dummy variable to be associated with a 7.65 percent reduction in total homicides across all counties and a 9 percent reduction in homicides when only large counties (populations of 100,000 or more) were included.43
====


> http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Plassmann_Whitley.pdf
> 
> *COMMENTS
> 
> Confirming ìMore Guns, Less Crimeî Florenz Plassmann* & John Whitley***
> 
> CONCLUSION Analyzing county-level data for the entire United States from 1977 to 2000, we find annual reductions in murder rates between 1.5% and 2.3% for each additional year that a right-to-carry law is in effect.
> 
> For the first five years that such a law is in effect, the total benefit from reduced crimes usually ranges between about $2 and $3 billion per year.
> 
> The results are very similar to earlier estimates using county-level data from 1977 to 1996. We appreciate the continuing effort that Ayres and Donohue have made in discussing the impact of right-to-carry laws on crime rates. Yet we believe that both the new evidence provided by them as well as our new results show consistently that right-to-carry laws reduce crime and save lives. Unfortunately, a few simple mistakes lead Ayres and Donohue to incorrectly claim that crime rates significantly increase after right-to-carry laws are initially adopted and to misinterpret the significance of their own estimates that examined the year-to-year impact of the law.


====

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content...An-Exercise-in-Replication.proof_.revised.pdf

~ The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws on Crime: An Exercise in Replication1

Carlisle E. Moody College of William and Mary - Department of Economics, Virginia 23187, U.S.A. E-mail: cemood@wm.edu Thomas B. Marvell Justec Research, Virginia 23185, U.S.A. Paul R. Zimmerman U.S. Federal Trade Commission - Bureau of Economics, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. Fasil Alemante College of William and Mary, Virginia 23187, U.S.A.


Abstract: In an article published in 2011, Aneja, Donohue and Zhang found that shall-issue or right-to-carry (RTC) concealed weapons laws have no effect on any crime except for a positive effect on assault.

This paper reports a replication of their basic findings and some corresponding robustness checks, which reveal a serious omitted variable problem.

*Once corrected for omitted variables, the most robust result, confirmed using both county and state data, is that RTC laws significantly reduce murder.
====*


> *An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates*
> Mark Gius
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> The purpose of the present study is to determine the effects of state-level assault weapons bans and concealed weapons laws on state-level murder rates.
> 
> *Using data for the period 1980 to 2009 and controlling for state and year fixed effects, the results of the present study suggest that states with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states.*
> 
> It was also found that assault weapons bans did not significantly affect murder rates at the state level. These results suggest that restrictive concealed weapons laws may cause an increase in gun-related murders at the state level. The results of this study are consistent with some prior research in this area, most notably Lott and Mustard (1997).


===



> _“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here.._
> 
> 
> *Summary and Conclusion*
> 
> Many articles have been published finding that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one article, by Ayres and Donohue who employ a model that combines a dummy variable with a post-law trend, claims to find that shall-issue laws increase crime.
> 
> However, the only way that they can produce the result that shall-issue laws increase crime is to confine the span of analysis to five years
> 
> .* We show, using their own estimates, that if they had extended their analysis by one more year, they would have concluded that these laws reduce crime.*
> 
> Since most states with shallissue laws have had these laws on the books for more than five years, and the law will presumably remain on the books for some time, the only relevant analysis extends beyond five years. We extend their analysis by adding three more years of data, control for the effects of crack cocaine, control for dynamic effects, and correct the standard errors for clustering.
> 
> *We find that there is an initial increase in crime due to passage of the shall-issue law that is dwarfed over time by the decrease in crime associated with the post-law trend.
> 
> These results are very similar to those of Ayres and Donohue, properly interpreted.*
> 
> The modified Ayres and Donohue model finds that shall-issue laws significantly reduce murder and burglary across all the adopting states. These laws appear to significantly increase assault, and have no net effect on rape, robbery, larceny, or auto theft. However, in the long run only the trend coefficients matter. We estimate a net benefit of $450 million per year as a result of the passage of these laws. We also estimate that, up through 2000, there was a cumulative overall net benefit of these laws of $28 billion since their passage. We think that there is credible statistical evidence that these laws lower the costs of crime. But at the very least, the present study should neutralize any “more guns, more crime” thinking based on Ayres and Donohue’s work in the Stanford Law Review


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> So, no shootings in October and 2 so far in November in the UK... oops no, found another 2, that makes 4, with all our gun control laws. How many in the USA in that time? Shall I start looking, just for comparative purposes?



A tale of two countries...

Britain...

Wayne Roberts, 36, posed as a water board worker to trick his way into the 74-year-old’s home in Barnsley, South Yorkshire, before launching the vicious attack in May this year. Sheffield Crown Court heard he punched the man, attempted to strangle him and threatened to empty a steaming kettle over his head as he demanded money. The elderly victim led Roberts and his accomplice James Hughes, 37, upstairs, where he was forced to hand over more than £22,000 in cash which has never been recovered.


Read more: Robber threatened pensioner with boiling water before stealing life savings

United States...

81-year-old homeowner fatally shoots armed robber

A suspect was shot and killed when he tried to rob an 81-year-old man at gunpoint outside of the man’s home in Genoa, Arkansas, on Thursday afternoon.

Buddy Cates told KSLA that he walked outside of his home around 1:30 p.m. and came face to face with the suspect, who authorities are still working to identify.

Cates said the suspect was holding a “big pistol,” but Cates also had his hand in his pocket, gripping his own gun.

“The battle was one,” Cates recalled, noting that, between the two, at least a dozen shots were fired.

“Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done,” Cates said. “In this case, it was me.”

Cates was uninjured, but the suspect died after he was taken to a hospital in Texarkana, not far from Cates’ home.

After the attempted robbery and subsequent shooting, three women were arrested in connection to the crime, according to reports from the Texarkana Gazette. Kiana Keshaun Montgomery, 21; Shaynesha Martin, 19; and Ke’Erica Turner, 20, are all facing charges for aggravated robbery and are being held at the Miller County Detention Center. Authorities did not say what part the women played in the robbery or whether they are believed to be responsible for other crimes.


72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’

After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.

“They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”

Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.

“I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.

Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.

Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.


----------



## Vagabond63

Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.



			
				 2aguy said:
			
		

> There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.



Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You stated that crime around the world went down a the same time.....you failed to mention that crime in the U.S. went down more and faster than crime around the world.



I recall asking you to provide a link to this “revelation” on Monday. As you keep repeating yourself and in all your frenzied BS cut and paste spree, did you forget?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....[/quote}
> 
> So you can point out which of these “studies” used actual factual recorded empirical data, and were not simply extrapolations based on small sample interviews relying on respondents opinions?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Again, you don't want to answer the question, so I will repeat it.



Knock yourself out, I’ve given you the answer your "question" deserves and the only one you'll get, would you like me to repeat it in case it didn’t penetrate your consciousness the first time?

“I tend not to answer pointless non-question questions or “questions” that are in reality, Appeal to Emotion fallacies, which incidentally prove that you have no factual evidence to offer; you just peddle fear.

I could just as easily ask you, “Would it be better for you if a child finds a gun and kills themselves with a legal gun that was carelessly left lying around, or that the owner should have had compulsory and sufficient training in how to store a gun safely in order to obtain a gun permit and/or gun? Texas boy, 3, dies after accidentally shooting himself in the chest at birthday party

Oh, as for time travel, that opens up a whole new can of worms. Ever read A sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury? A Sound of Thunder - Wikipedia Very prescient.”

Feel free to repeat it ad nauseam, oh and while you're at it, hold your breath while you wait for a different answer.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?



54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You can't say that while actual studies show that gun ownership does lower the crime rate...


You mean articles cited by John (lies a) Lott’s start-up company, riiiight, got it.


----------



## Vagabond63

Cue next barrage of cut and paste BS...GO!


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't say that while actual studies show that gun ownership does lower the crime rate...
> 
> 
> 
> You mean articles cited by John (lies a) Lott’s start-up company, riiiight, got it.
Click to expand...



Actual research, you dumb twit.....I posted the research, the names of the researchers and quotes pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about.....you can lie about Dr. Lott......but you can't deny his research.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.
Click to expand...



Government researchers, private researchers, years of research, and since it goes against your emotional attachment to gun control, you say it doesn't count....you are an idiot.   I have also listed stories taken from actual news outlets of Americans across the country, of all ages who use guns to save their own lives and the lives of others.........

330 million Americans

72 million Children

600 million guns

Over 19.5 million Americans who legally carry guns in public.....

54 accidental gun deaths of children, the majority of whom die because they live in homes of criminals...who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place.....

You dumb twit....

1.1 million defensive gun uses each year....Centers for Disease Control

1.5 Million defensive gun uses each year....Dept. of Justice....

You don't know what you are talking about.   You don't understand the issues.  You are irrational and dumb.......yet you still post on this topic...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Cue next barrage of cut and paste BS...GO!




I post actual sources of research and data.....and since it shows you are an idiot who doesn't have the first clue about what you are talking about, you move to the next step of the left wing doofus....you complain that the information is too much cut and paste.......

Weak....and lame.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.
Click to expand...



Registering guns has one goal.....knowing who owns the gun so when you have the political power you know where to find them for confiscation.

Registration of guns does not work....since criminals can't buy, own or carry guns in the first place, they will not have legally registered guns when they commit their crimes......you doofus.  So registering them to normal people has no effect on solving crimes.   Finding a gun that has been stolen and used in a crime does not tell you who pulled the trigger.......the average street life of a gun is about 11 years...after it is stolen......so again...you don't know what you are talking about...

Here.....the truth, in cut and paste....

Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up

*The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.*

The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.

So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.

There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.

Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.


*As to solving crimes....it doesn't...*










						10 Myths About The Long Gun Registry
					






					cssa-cila.org
				




*Myth #4: Police investigations are aided by the registry.*
Doubtful. Information contained in the registry is incomplete and unreliable. Due to the inaccuracy of the information, it cannot be used as evidence in court and the government has yet to prove that it has been a contributing factor in any investigation. Another factor is the dismal compliance rate (estimated at only 50%) for licensing and registration which further renders the registry useless. Some senior police officers have stated as such: “The law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered ... the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.” Former Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino, January 2003.


-----

https://www.quora.com/In-countries-...olved-at-least-in-part-by-use-of-the-registry



*Tracking physical objects that are easily transferred with a database is non-trivial problem. *Guns that are stolen, loaned, or lost disappear from the registry. The data is has to be manually entered and input mistakes will both leak guns and generate false positive results.

*Registries don’t solve straw-purchases. *If someone goes through all of the steps to register a gun and simply gives it to a criminal that gun becomes unregistered. Assuming the gun is ever recovered you could theoretically try and prosecute the person who transferred the gun to the criminal, but you aren’t solving the crime you were trying to. Remember that people will prostitute themselves or even their children for drugs, so how much deterrence is there in a maybe-get-a-few-years for straw purchasing?

*Registries are expensive*. Canada’s registry was pitched as costing the taxpayer $2 million and the rest of the costs were to be payed for with registration fees. It was subject to massive cost overruns that were not being met by registrations fees. When the program was audited in 2002 the program was expected to cost over $1 billion and that the fee revenue was only expected to be $140 million.

*No gun recovered. *If no gun was recovered at the scene of the crime then your registry isn’t even _theoretically_ helping, let alone providing a practical tool. You need a world where criminals meticulously register their guns and leave them at the crime scene for a registry to start to become useful.

Say I have a registered gun, and a known associate of mine was shot and killed. Ballistics is able to determine that my known associate was killed with the same make and model as the gun I registered. A registry doesn’t prove that my gun was used, or that I was the one doing the shooting. I was a suspect as soon as we said “known associate” and the police will then being looking for motive and checking for my alibi.


Bullet tracking..

Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.

Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.

"Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."

The database "was a waste," said Frank Sloane, owner of Pasadena Gun & Pawn in Anne Arundel County. "There's things that they could have done that would have made sense. This didn't make any sense."


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.
Click to expand...



Here......again, criminals can't buy, own or carry guns legally and so registering them will not help catch them.....all it does is aid in confiscation when the anti-gunners get the power to confiscate...

Eighty percent of illegal guns recovered in Michigan have been on the street for at least three years. The average time between a firearm being stolen and turning up in a criminal context — what police call the “time to crime” — is a long 13 years.









						Editorial: How to get illegal guns off the streets
					

Stopping this activity should be a shared goal for all sides of the gun debate.




					www.mlive.com
				




How many different criminals, who sell the guns or trade them for drugs, or pass them from one gang member to another before the police actually get their hands on the gun?  

So, again, a registry of guns does not help solve the crime...........linking the gun to the actual shooter helps solve the crime and you don't need a registry to do that......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.
Click to expand...



Guns are easily traded or sold between criminals and easily concealed and kept for years.......cars aren't passed around the same way a gun is....you doofus.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime around the world went down a the same time.....you failed to mention that crime in the U.S. went down more and faster than crime around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recall asking you to provide a link to this “revelation” on Monday. As you keep repeating yourself and in all your frenzied BS cut and paste spree, did you forget?
Click to expand...



Here...dumb ass.....

Again...gun murder in the U.S. down 49%, gun crime down 75%....violent crime down 72%....

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
=========
=========

In fact, the homicide patterns observed across countries spread throughout the world are strikingly similar over time. Despite having unique cultures, criminal justice policies and systems of governance, countries in North America, Europe, Asia, and Oceania have seen homicide reduce by similar magnitudes over similar time periods.

Between 1990 and 2015, in both North America and Western Europe, the number of homicide victims per 100,000 people declined by 46%, while Asia saw a reduction of 38%, and Oceania of 22%.









						Homicide is declining around the world because we’re getting old
					

There are a bunch of different factors that drive the homicide rate—but there is one global explanation.




					qz.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime around the world went down a the same time.....you failed to mention that crime in the U.S. went down more and faster than crime around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recall asking you to provide a link to this “revelation” on Monday. As you keep repeating yourself and in all your frenzied BS cut and paste spree, did you forget?
Click to expand...



Now....you provide your link showing crime rates around the world dropping at the same time.......thanks.

Keep in mind.......as the crime rates around the world dropped, more and more Americans were buying and carrying guns...... "Science" shows us that adding that variable to the dropping crime rates did not increase the crime rate in the U.S.........so again, you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Vagabond63

Right on cue, another torrent of BS and projection arrives.



			
				 2aguy said:
			
		

> Actual research, you dumb twit.....I posted the research, the names of the researchers and quotes pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about.....you can lie about Dr. Lott......but you can't deny his research…



I suppose calling him “doctor” gives him some caché and lends credibility when you call what he does “research” with the more gullible, but to everyone else, a PhD in Economics, is just another university degree. As I’ve said before, his “research” consists of wildly extrapolating from limited sample surveys of dubious quality and creating a fantasy world where guns solve every problem. To the rabid gun nut brigade, he’s a messianic guru; to normal people he’s a disgraced academic who couldn’t get work in reputable educational establishments so was forced to create his own “think tank”. But as they say chacun à son gout.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> …your emotional attachment to gun control…



You keep mistaking me for someone else. I have no emotional attachment to gun control.

As I’ve stated time after time, I like guns, I used to own three handguns when it was legal to do so in the UK and spent a lot of my spare time on the shooting range. In that respect, I’m possibly your worst nightmare, someone who’s not afraid of guns but sees the value in gun registration, licensing after strict background/medical/psychological checks and extensive compulsory training in handling and safe storing of firearms. In other words responsible gun ownership.

I do not see the value of letting every Tom, Dick or Harry carry guns around without any restrictions; the situation you have in the USA. I do not subscribe to the myth that the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> …I post actual sources of research and data...



Data based on limited polling that is then extrapolated to fit whatever the “researcher” wants. Your "researchers" shoot an arrow, see where it lands then paint a target around it and cry, “bullseye”. For every bit of “research” you post, I suspect I can find someone who has debunked it, if I could be bothered.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> …In fact, the homicide patterns observed across countries spread throughout the world are strikingly similar over time. Despite having unique cultures, criminal justice policies and systems of governance, countries in North America, Europe, Asia, and Oceania have seen homicide reduce by similar magnitudes over similar time periods…





			
				 2a guy said:
			
		

> Now....you provide your link showing crime rates around the world dropping at the same time.......thanks.



So I asked you to provide a link to prove your assertion that crime rates went down faster in the US than in other Western countries and you end up disproving your own argument! Priceless!

Oh, here’s your link. Homicide is declining around the world because we’re getting old ROFL! And...no mention of guns as a conributing factor...too much! 

“Between 1990 and 2015, in both North America and Western Europe, the number of homicide victims per 100,000 people declined by 46%”


----------



## Vagabond63

...Meanwhile in America...








						8 injured in shooting at Milwaukee-area mall; suspect at large
					

A teenager was among the victims, authorities said. The attack was likely the result of an altercation, police said.




					www.nbcnews.com
				



Eight people shot in a shopping Mall that WASN'T a GUN FREE ZONE, where were all those "good guys with guns"?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> ...Meanwhile in America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 injured in shooting at Milwaukee-area mall; suspect at large
> 
> 
> A teenager was among the victims, authorities said. The attack was likely the result of an altercation, police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eight people shot in a shopping Mall that WASN'T a GUN FREE ZONE, where were all those "good guys with guns"?




Hey.....dumb ass....you don't know what you are talking about...

Mayfair Mall is a gun free zone...which means normal Americans can't bring their legal guns with them to the mall....you dumb ass....

*Examples of specific activities that are prohibited include but are not limited to:*


*Disruptive profanity, vulgar or threatening language*
*Unnecessarily blocking walkways, roadways or storefronts*
*Running, horseplay or disorderly conduct of any nature*
*Excessive loitering*
*Operating unauthorized recreational and/or personal transportation devices in the shopping center*
*No firearms or illegal weapons*





__





						Code of Conduct | Mayfair
					






					www.mayfairmall.com
				





From the mall spokesman...

*Mayfair has a strict no-gun policy. If the shooter had complied with that policy, no one would have been hurt (Friday)."*









						Wauwatosa police 'working tirelessly' to ID, arrest suspect in Mayfair mall shooting
					

Wauwatosa Mayor Dennis McBride thanks police, says city is shaken but will not lose its spirit.



					www.jsonline.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> ...Meanwhile in America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 injured in shooting at Milwaukee-area mall; suspect at large
> 
> 
> A teenager was among the victims, authorities said. The attack was likely the result of an altercation, police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eight people shot in a shopping Mall that WASN'T a GUN FREE ZONE, where were all those "good guys with guns"?



Moron.....doofus......you don't know what you are talking about.....the mall was a gun free zone....read post #569 you dope.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …In fact, the homicide patterns observed across countries spread throughout the world are strikingly similar over time. Despite having unique cultures, criminal justice policies and systems of governance, countries in North America, Europe, Asia, and Oceania have seen homicide reduce by similar magnitudes over similar time periods…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2a guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now....you provide your link showing crime rates around the world dropping at the same time.......thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I asked you to provide a link to prove your assertion that crime rates went down faster in the US than in other Western countries and you end up disproving your own argument! Priceless!
> 
> Oh, here’s your link. Homicide is declining around the world because we’re getting old ROFL! And...no mention of guns as a conributing factor...too much!
> 
> “Between 1990 and 2015, in both North America and Western Europe, the number of homicide victims per 100,000 people declined by 46%”
Click to expand...



Are you really this fucking stupid....

You made the statement that crime rates were going down around the world....that includes the United States.

While these crime rates were going down......Americans were buying and carrying guns in larger numbers than ever before...

In science....you doofus........when you have an experiment and you add a variable.....if that variable doesn't change anything, that variable has had no effect on the issue....you doofus...

Guns in the hands of normal people do not increase the gun crime rate...the gun murder rate, or the violent crime rate....

Your point about decreasing crime rates shows this......you dumb ass.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …In fact, the homicide patterns observed across countries spread throughout the world are strikingly similar over time. Despite having unique cultures, criminal justice policies and systems of governance, countries in North America, Europe, Asia, and Oceania have seen homicide reduce by similar magnitudes over similar time periods…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2a guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now....you provide your link showing crime rates around the world dropping at the same time.......thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I asked you to provide a link to prove your assertion that crime rates went down faster in the US than in other Western countries and you end up disproving your own argument! Priceless!
> 
> Oh, here’s your link. Homicide is declining around the world because we’re getting old ROFL! And...no mention of guns as a conributing factor...too much!
> 
> “Between 1990 and 2015, in both North America and Western Europe, the number of homicide victims per 100,000 people declined by 46%”
Click to expand...



Gun murder went down 49% in the U.S.......gun crime went down 75%.....violent crime by 75%......

Those numbers...doofus, are higher than 46%.....

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*

*You really need to stop mixing your booze with your meds.....you doofus...*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …your emotional attachment to gun control…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You keep mistaking me for someone else. I have no emotional attachment to gun control.
> 
> As I’ve stated time after time, I like guns, I used to own three handguns when it was legal to do so in the UK and spent a lot of my spare time on the shooting range. In that respect, I’m possibly your worst nightmare, someone who’s not afraid of guns but sees the value in gun registration, licensing after strict background/medical/psychological checks and extensive compulsory training in handling and safe storing of firearms. In other words responsible gun ownership.
> 
> I do not see the value of letting every Tom, Dick or Harry carry guns around without any restrictions; the situation you have in the USA. I do not subscribe to the myth that the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
Click to expand...



Tell that to British police.......as they now are arming more and more police...with guns....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Right on cue, another torrent of BS and projection arrives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actual research, you dumb twit.....I posted the research, the names of the researchers and quotes pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about.....you can lie about Dr. Lott......but you can't deny his research…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose calling him “doctor” gives him some caché and lends credibility when you call what he does “research” with the more gullible, but to everyone else, a PhD in Economics, is just another university degree. As I’ve said before, his “research” consists of wildly extrapolating from limited sample surveys of dubious quality and creating a fantasy world where guns solve every problem. To the rabid gun nut brigade, he’s a messianic guru; to normal people he’s a disgraced academic who couldn’t get work in reputable educational establishments so was forced to create his own “think tank”. But as they say chacun à son gout.
Click to expand...



Dipshit...you don't even know the people involved...you are attacking Dr. Gary Kleck....not Dr. John Lott....you doofus.....

Lott looked at crime data from every county in the United States, you dumb ass, and recorded crime rates before and after Concealed carry laws were passed in states......showing crime rates going down ...

Dr. Kleck did the research into gun use in self defense....you dumb ass.......and to try to discredit his research the Centers for Disease Control did the same research...and hid the data after they found 1.1 million defensive gun uses...at the same time, you dumb ass...the Department of Justice also did their own research into defensive gun use....and found 1.5 million times on average that Americans use guns for self defense.....

You don't know what you are talking about...or who you are attacking....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …I post actual sources of research and data...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data based on limited polling that is then extrapolated to fit whatever the “researcher” wants. Your "researchers" shoot an arrow, see where it lands then paint a target around it and cry, “bullseye”. For every bit of “research” you post, I suspect I can find someone who has debunked it, if I could be bothered.
Click to expand...



You just cited the research methods of anti-gun extremists........that is how they have to do research since the truth, facts and reality don't support their research........


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …I post actual sources of research and data...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data based on limited polling that is then extrapolated to fit whatever the “researcher” wants. Your "researchers" shoot an arrow, see where it lands then paint a target around it and cry, “bullseye”. For every bit of “research” you post, I suspect I can find someone who has debunked it, if I could be bothered.
Click to expand...



Dipshit...both Lott and Kleck were anti-gun advocates at the time they did their research, you dumb ass...they had no dog in the fight when they did their research......you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> ...Meanwhile in America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 injured in shooting at Milwaukee-area mall; suspect at large
> 
> 
> A teenager was among the victims, authorities said. The attack was likely the result of an altercation, police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eight people shot in a shopping Mall that WASN'T a GUN FREE ZONE, where were all those "good guys with guns"?




Meanwhile, in Britain.....the land of gun control...

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

*Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

*Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”*

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> ...Meanwhile in America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 injured in shooting at Milwaukee-area mall; suspect at large
> 
> 
> A teenager was among the victims, authorities said. The attack was likely the result of an altercation, police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eight people shot in a shopping Mall that WASN'T a GUN FREE ZONE, where were all those "good guys with guns"?




Hey, genius.....which British gun control law stops this guy from walking into a mall, a church or a theater in Britain and shooting people?

He has the gun, and your gun control laws can't stop him.....so again, which gun control law keeps him from walking into a mall?

*A woman is in a life-threatening condition in hospital after being shot in London.*
Police and ambulance crews were called to Westgate Street, Hackney, at 20:52 GMT on Sunday.
The victim, thought to be in her 30s, was found with gunshot injuries and was treated at the scene before being taken to hospital.









						Hackney shooting: Woman in life-threatening condition
					

The 32-year-old woman was an "innocent bystander", the Metropolitan Police believes.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> ...Meanwhile in America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 injured in shooting at Milwaukee-area mall; suspect at large
> 
> 
> A teenager was among the victims, authorities said. The attack was likely the result of an altercation, police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eight people shot in a shopping Mall that WASN'T a GUN FREE ZONE, where were all those "good guys with guns"?




It isn't even clear yet if the Mall Security is allowed to carry guns...you doofus.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> ...Meanwhile in America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8 injured in shooting at Milwaukee-area mall; suspect at large
> 
> 
> A teenager was among the victims, authorities said. The attack was likely the result of an altercation, police said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eight people shot in a shopping Mall that WASN'T a GUN FREE ZONE, where were all those "good guys with guns"?




Yeah.....the mall shooting was likely a gang shooting......a hispanic 15 year old has been arrested.

So you can have some actual knowledge about gun issues......15 year olds in the U.S. cannot legally buy, own or carry handguns in the U.S. and it was illegal for him to carry a gun into that mall regardless of age.........gun control doesn't stop criminals from getting guns.....

Keep in mind....normal gun owners are the only ones who didn't bring their legal guns to the mall that day, while the criminal teenager, who can't legally buy, own or carry a gun, carried an illegal gun into the gun free zone of the mall......









						Wauwatosa police arrest 15-year-old in connection with mall shooting that injured 8 people
					

Wauwatosa Police Chief Barry Weber says a 15-year-old Hispanic male has been arrested in connection with a shooting at Mayfair shopping mall on Friday that injured eight people.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You made the statement that crime rates were going down around the world....that includes the United States.



Well, no I didn’t as it happens, you just rushed to your cut and paste library without reading what I had written. My actual post said:
“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Mayfair Mall is a gun free zone...which means normal Americans can't bring their legal guns with them to the mall....



Fair point, I checked the state laws on this, but never thought to look at the Mall’s own policy on acceptable behaviour. Still, given the shooting happened outside the Mall where presumably all these “good guys with guns” presumably had access to them in their cars, trucks, etc. before entering the Mall, my question stands, where were they?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You just cited the research methods of anti-gun extremists........that is how they have to do research since the truth, facts and reality don't support their research........



…and I could state with equal validity,

“You just cited the research methods of pro-gun extremists...that is how they have to do research since the truth, facts and reality don't support their research...” Next?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Hey, genius.....which British gun control law stops this guy from walking into a mall, a church or a theater in Britain and shooting people?



Erm…because he’s in America. I suspect he’d have to get on a plane and our airport security would probably find his gun…


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Guns in the hands of normal people do not increase the gun crime rate...the gun murder rate, or the violent crime rate....



Nor do they decrease it. You destroy your own argument with every post. This is too easy.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> ...you don't even know the people involved...you are attacking Dr. Gary Kleck....not Dr. John Lott....



I know exactly to whom I was referring. Reading really isn’t your strong suit, is it?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Yeah.....the mall shooting was likely a gang shooting......a hispanic 15 year old has been arrested.



How do you know that it was a "gang shooting" or that the gun was "illegal", it could have legally belonged to his parents? "In the US, 4.6 million minors live in homes with at least one loaded and unsecured firearm." according to Kids & Guns | Giffords


----------



## Vagabond63

...meanwhile in America...

Oh look, another multiple shooting...

A suspect was pictured smiling in his booking photo after two people were killed and two others were injured in a shooting at a fast food restaurant in Nebraska.

Officers were called to the Sonic Drive-In at 1307 Cornhusker Road in Bellevue, a suburb of Omaha, on Saturday night. Sonic drive-in shooting suspect smiles in mugshot after 2 killed, 2 wounded


----------



## Vagabond63

No wait... another one.








						Police: Five people shot, one dead in Phoenix party shooting
					

A woman is dead and at least four others are injured after a shooting during a party in Phoenix, police say.




					www.fox10phoenix.com
				




Maybe America needs some gun control, you can't shoot teenagers if you haven't got guns.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You made the statement that crime rates were going down around the world....that includes the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, no I didn’t as it happens, you just rushed to your cut and paste library without reading what I had written. My actual post said:
> “And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)
Click to expand...



And you are wrong....there have been a number of studies on this......you simply don't know what you are talking about...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guns in the hands of normal people do not increase the gun crime rate...the gun murder rate, or the violent crime rate....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nor do they decrease it. You destroy your own argument with every post. This is too easy.
Click to expand...



Are you really this stupid? 

The central argument of anti-gun extremists is simply.....if there are more guns there will be more gun crime.

That argument is wrong......as I keep showing you with your help. 

You said that crime rates around the world dropped at the same time.

I showed you the fact that as crime rates dropped around the world, more Americans were actually buying and carrying guns.

This fact, according to you, should have increased the gun crime rate in the United States as the rest of the world experienced crime rates going down....since, again, your argument is more guns will increase gun crime and regular crime.


The fact that that didn't happen....and gun murder rates went down 49%, and gun crime rates went down 75%, shows your argument is completely wrong.

As to lowering the crime rate, there are about a dozen studies that show that armed citizens lower the violent crime rate and drive lots of criminals into non-human crime, into burglary over robbery....

And at the very core?   The victim with a gun that stops the rape, robbery or murder lowers the crime rate against them....you doofus.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayfair Mall is a gun free zone...which means normal Americans can't bring their legal guns with them to the mall....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fair point, I checked the state laws on this, but never thought to look at the Mall’s own policy on acceptable behaviour. Still, given the shooting happened outside the Mall where presumably all these “good guys with guns” presumably had access to them in their cars, trucks, etc. before entering the Mall, my question stands, where were they?
Click to expand...



Are you really going to be this stupid and petty?   There are over 19.4 million Americans who can legally carry guns in this country.....a country of over 330 million people.....spread out across a land mass the size of western europe.......

And since the mall is a gun free zone....and you can't carry your gun into the mall, you doofus, if there are people in the area who can legally carry guns, they leave them at home rather than store them in their car where they are susceptible to criminals breaking into the car and stealing the guns....

That, you idiot, is another problem with gun free zones.  They force gun owners to leave their legal guns at home, rather than carrying them for self defense in specific, gun free locations.....because getting caught with a gun in a gun free zone can cause you to lose your Right to carry a gun permanently....since normal gun owners obey laws...while this 15 year old criminal ignored the gun laws...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...you don't even know the people involved...you are attacking Dr. Gary Kleck....not Dr. John Lott....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know exactly to whom I was referring. Reading really isn’t your strong suit, is it?
Click to expand...



No, you don't since you attacked Dr. Lott who didn't do the research you were attacking...you dumb ass....that research that you attacked was done by Dr. Kleck........and copied by the Centers for Disease Control, and the Department of Justice....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.....the mall shooting was likely a gang shooting......a hispanic 15 year old has been arrested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that it was a "gang shooting" or that the gun was "illegal", it could have legally belonged to his parents? "In the US, 4.6 million minors live in homes with at least one loaded and unsecured firearm." according to Kids & Guns | Giffords
Click to expand...



The gun was illegal, you dumb ass, because the kid who had it was 15, and it is illegal for a 15 year old to buy, own, or carry a handgun anywhere, let alone a mall......and a 15 year old carrying a gun has the hallmarks of a gang member here in the U.S.  

If he wasn't a gang member he was still breaking the law.  But likely was a gang member.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> ...meanwhile in America...
> 
> Oh look, another multiple shooting...
> 
> A suspect was pictured smiling in his booking photo after two people were killed and two others were injured in a shooting at a fast food restaurant in Nebraska.
> 
> Officers were called to the Sonic Drive-In at 1307 Cornhusker Road in Bellevue, a suburb of Omaha, on Saturday night. Sonic drive-in shooting suspect smiles in mugshot after 2 killed, 2 wounded




Yeah...he broke the law and will be punished....meanwhile, the 1.1 million Americans who don't break the law, used their legal guns to stop guys like this from committing rape, robbery and murder........

Like this....*.Which of these guns would you take away from the victim before they were used for self defense?*

Auto shop employees credited with taking down accused Rockledge gunman

*ROCKLEDGE — A man armed with a .45-caliber handgun and a lot of ammunition wandered onto an auto repair shop property and began firing in the parking lot Friday afternoon, police said.

The gunman killed one employee and paralyzed a second. That's when the employees at Schlenker Automotive fought back with equal force, Rockledge police chief Joseph La Sata said.

"The manager, who was a concealed weapons permit holder, came out and engaged in gunfire in the parking lot," La Sata said. "The manager fled back inside the building, being chased by the gunman. Another Schlenker employee, who also had concealed weapons permit, engaged in gunfire with the suspect."

Police said the suspect in the homicide is Robert Lorenzo Bailey Jr., 28, of Cocoa. He was shot twice and was in critical condition at Health First's Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne. Officers are keeping him under watch.*
===================

*And this....*

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/good-guy-gun-stops-sex-assault-hiking-trail

*According to The Blaze, Josh Williams, 39, nearly left his handgun at home when heading out to the hiking trail on a dark morning back in September, but he felt the nagging sensation that he should take it anyway. That turned out to be the right call because while on the trail at 5:30 a.m., Williams heard a woman scream loud enough to get past his music-blaring earbuds. *
*
In the darkness, Williams shined his flashlight and discovered a woman being sexually assaulted and approached the perpetrator.

“I came up, pulled my gun and told him to get off of her,” Williams recalled. He then asked the man to get on his knees and asked to see his hands: “That way I knew he didn’t have a weapon. And at that point he was no threat, so I didn’t feel the need to shoot him.”

The perp ran away but thanks to a good description from both the victim and Williams, police were able to later apprehend 22-year-old Richard McEachern and charge him with sexual assault.

The victim was very glad Williams decided to carry that day and used a gun to save her from a dangerous situation. That was the first time Williams ever pointed his weapon at another person, but it confirmed for him the importance of the Second Amendment:
*


> *“It’s dark, and I don’t know what’s out there, so I have it to protect myself and other people. That’s what it’s all about anyway — to help other people with it, not just myself.*
> *“I didn’t think I’d ever have to pull it. Did I want to? No, not at all. But just … right place, right time.”*



*And this.....*

Good guy with a gun stops kidnapping

I*t was habit, not heroism, that caused Justin Pearson to grab his gun.*
*
But seconds later, that weapon enabled Pearson to stop a kidnapping taking place just outside his Las Vegas home on Oct. 5.

“We heard this real loud noise outside,” said Pearson, 36. “I opened up the door, and this big BMW goes flying by — 60 mph in a 25 mph zone. I dialed 911 immediately.”

As he always does before leaving his house, Pearson, a concealed-carry weapon permit holder, put his pistol on his hip. The 911 operator asked for a license plate number, so Pearson moved down the street to get it.

“He had lost control of the car and almost went into a house at the end of the street,” Pearson said. The BMW then turned around and stopped in front of a neighbor’s yard, where a 6-year-old boy was standing.

“About 50 yards in front of me, the driver grabs this young child and starts stuffing him in the car,” Pearson said.

“‘Holy crap, he just took a child, and he’s trying to stuff him into the car!’” Pearson remembers telling the operator.

Pearson is 6-foot-4 but makes a beanpole look stocky. The kidnapper, Pearson recalls, was a similar height, but was a “solid” 250 pounds.

“He was a very big dude, and I’m not a menacing person by any means,” Pearson said. “I don’t think I could have physically stopped the guy. It would have been super ugly if it was just me versus him.”

Fortunately, Pearson had a trump card — a Heckler & Koch VP9 pistol legally resting on his right hip.


“I carry a concealed firearm everywhere I go,” Pearson said. “I lifted up my shirt and put my hand on my gun.”

“‘Hey, stop!’ I said, real loud. He turned and looked at me. There was just enough of a delay for the kid to get out of the car. I know he saw the firearm.”

With the boy out of the car and an armed citizen staring him down, the man decided to drive away. Pearson and his still-holstered pistol stopped a kidnapping. Police wouldn’t arrive for 17 minutes.

“If I didn’t have a firearm, I don’t think there’s much I could have done,” Pearson said.

A Metropolitan Police Department spokeswoman confirmed many of the details in Pearson’s story, including the date, time and location. Pearson said — and Metro confirmed — that the would-be kidnapper was the boy’s biological father, who didn’t have parental rights or permission to take the child.

This isn’t the first time Pearson has used a firearm to stop a crime.

“Many years ago, I was carrying and a guy pulled a knife on a friend of mine,” Pearson said. “I quickly drew my firearm, and the kid ran away.”


These kinds of stories rarely make the news. But they happen more often than we realize and underscore an important point. Concealed-carry weapon permit holders prevent crimes.

====

And this......*

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

*A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.*
*
Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.
DC GUN-FREE ZONES CAUSE CONFUSION OVER LEGALITY OF GUN CARRY EVEN WITH A PERMIT

Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.

After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.

Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.

May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.
------

And this...*

Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

*A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.*
*
About 4:05 p.m. Oct. 5, the 25-year-old man was shot in the chest when he stabbed the 25-year-old woman multiple times in the 4000 block of West 21st Street, Chicago Police said.

The woman was taken in serious condition to Mount Sinai Hospital, and the man was pronounced dead at the scene at 4:48 p.m., authorities said.

The Cook County medical examiner’s office identified him as Pleasure Cardell Singleton Jr.

The stabbing was believed to be a domestic incident, police said, but the nature of the relationship between the two wasn’t released.
======

And these.....*



> *Would-be robber fatally shot by resident after forcing family into basement
> 
> A man was shot and killed inside a home in Hammond, Indiana, Friday morning while attempting to rob the residents.
> 
> According to a statement from the Hammond Police Department, the suspect, who has not been publicly identified, entered the home through the front door around 7:30 a.m. The suspect said he knew of a safe in the basement of the home and announced a robbery while threatening the residents with the firearm.
> 
> The suspect then forced three residents into the basement, but unbeknown to the would-be robber, there was a fourth resident inside the house as well. The fourth resident retrieved a handgun, and when the suspect came out of the basement and walked into the kitchen, he shot the suspect multiple times in the chest.
> 
> Police were called, and when officers arrived on the scene, the suspect, who was only identified as a black male, was found lying on the kitchen floor. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
> 
> ==========*


*
9/8/17

Taco Bell employees shoot, kill armed robbery suspect

CLEVELAND – Three employees at a Cleveland Taco Bell shot and killed a suspect during an attempted robbery, according to police.

Officers responded to the restaurant on W. 117th street at 2:45 a.m. Wednesday morning for a report of a robbery with shots fired.

When police arrived, they found a suspect with multiple gunshot wounds. Officers administered first aid until EMS arrived. The suspect later died at MetroHealth Medical Center. The medical examiner later identified the suspect as 24-year-old Cleveland resident De'Carlo Jackson.

Another man, believed to be Jackson's accomplice, had already taken off by the time officers arrived.

Police say a preliminary investigation indicates that three Taco Bell employees, all armed, shot at the two suspects after they came into the restaurant wearing masks and ordered the employees to the ground at gunpoint.
==============

8/23/17

Police: Robber tries to take woman's purse, flees when 57-year-old shows gun at west Little Rock shopping center

The would-be robber reportedly grabbed the woman’s purse while it rested on her shoulder, at which point, the victim brandished a weapon she had stored inside.

According to the report, the assailant then fled west through the parking lot of the grocery store and behind Belk.

No items were listed as stolen from the woman
*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> No wait... another one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police: Five people shot, one dead in Phoenix party shooting
> 
> 
> A woman is dead and at least four others are injured after a shooting during a party in Phoenix, police say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox10phoenix.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe America needs some gun control, you can't shoot teenagers if you haven't got guns.




And you can't stop rape, robbery and murder with nice thoughts......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> No wait... another one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police: Five people shot, one dead in Phoenix party shooting
> 
> 
> A woman is dead and at least four others are injured after a shooting during a party in Phoenix, police say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox10phoenix.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe America needs some gun control, you can't shoot teenagers if you haven't got guns.




We have plenty of gun control......what we need more of is democrat party members losing office....it is their policies that drive 95% of our gun crime in this country....they keep releasing known, violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, genius.....which British gun control law stops this guy from walking into a mall, a church or a theater in Britain and shooting people?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erm…because he’s in America. I suspect he’d have to get on a plane and our airport security would probably find his gun…
Click to expand...



The shooter who  was already in Britain, you moron....

*Three men have been stabbed to death in a weekend of bloodshed in London that also left an “innocent" woman fighting for her life.*
*-----
Also on Sunday, police were called following reports of a shooting in Westgate Street, Hackney, at around 8.50pm.
-----*
*"We have been told that the area was busy at the time of the shooting, and I am confident that someone has information that will help our investigation.*









						Three men killed and woman shot in weekend of bloodshed in London
					

Scotland Yard are investigating three separate killings




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, genius.....which British gun control law stops this guy from walking into a mall, a church or a theater in Britain and shooting people?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erm…because he’s in America. I suspect he’d have to get on a plane and our airport security would probably find his gun…
Click to expand...



This shooter is already in Britain with his illegal gun...

*Detectives investigating the death of a “loving and devoted” father-of-two in east London have charged a man.*
*Jason Diallo, 30, died after being shot in the head by suspects who fled the scene in a 4x4.*
*Paramedics battled to save him but he died at the scene in Balfour Road, Ilford, on Sunday, November 1. *









						Murder charge after father-of-two, 30, gunned down in Ilford drive-by
					

Jason Diallo, 30, from Ilford, was described as a ‘kind, gentle and loving man’




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> ...there have been a number of studies on this...



Yes there have and none of them outside the “John (lies a) Lott gun nut bubble” show any corelation between declining crime rates and increased gun ownership. Even the last link you posted to support your theory doesn’t mention guns. Homicide is declining around the world because we’re getting old


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> This fact, according to you, should have increased the gun crime rate in the United States as the rest of the world experienced crime rates going down....since, again, your argument is more guns will increase gun crime and regular crime.



You appear to live in a fantasy bubble where everyone you disagree with is an “anti-gun extremist”. I’ve never put forth this argument, yet you keep accusing me of doing so. I merely disprove your argument time after time that private ownership of guns reduces crime and your idolised “gun gurus” have feet of clay.

Just because you seem unable to grasp my position I’ll say again, I like guns, I used to own three handguns when it was legal to do so in the UK and spent a lot of my spare time on the shooting range. In that respect, I’m possibly your worst nightmare, someone who’s not afraid of guns but sees the value in gun registration, licensing after strict background/medical/psychological checks and extensive compulsory training in handling and safe storing of firearms. In other words, responsible gun ownership.

I do not see the value of letting every Tom, Dick or Harry carry guns around without any restrictions; the situation you have in the USA. I do not subscribe to the myth that, “the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> There are over 19.4 million Americans who can legally carry guns in this country.....a country of over 330 million people.....spread out across a land mass the size of western europe.....



…and yet you keep arguing that these19.4 million people are responsible for almost halving the crime rate! Wow! Disband the police, the FBI and the Texas Rangers, you don’t need them any more, you have those 19.4 million “superheroes” with gunz!


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> The gun was illegal…



No. If the gun was bought legally, it remains a legally acquired firearm. The use it was put to was illegal, i.e. obtained by a 15-year-old boy and used to shoot at people with intent to kill.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> to stop guys like this from committing rape, robbery and murder…



You’d think with all these “millions” of law abiding American gun owners stopping crimes on a daily basis, you could find more recent examples rather than just continualy resorting to your cut and past library of events from 2017.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> And you can't stop rape, robbery and murder with nice thoughts...



True. But guns don’t necessarily stop, robbery, rape, or murder.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> The shooter who was already in Britain…



Sorry, we were discussing the shooter at the mall, wasn’t aware you’d flown off onto another of your fantasy trips to change the subject.


----------



## Vagabond63

Meanwhile in America…

Baby of pregnant Florida woman accidentally shot by husband dies

“The Martin County Sheriff's Office said a man said he mistook his pregnant wife for an intruder and shot her in the head, killing her.”

then there's this:

"As parents rushed to pick up their kids hours after a shooting at Hendersonville Middle School, two sisters described what they say was a frightening scene inside the gym.

That’s where police say a firearm was discharged by a 12-year-old boy, striking a 12-year-old girl in the leg."

13-year-old accused of shooting classmate faces felony charge

Gosh, wonder where a 12 year old boy got the gun?

And more. Suspect in shooting death of 7-year-old Detroit girl arrested in Dallas

“Police said a vehicle drove by a home on the 3900 block of Bedford at about 8:20 p.m. on Oct. 28 and opened fire on the house. Reginae had been sleeping on a couch when she was struck in the head by shots fired through the living room window, police said. She died Oct. 30.

"It's sad when you can't go to sleep because you don't know if you'll wake up again," said her mother, Etosha Williams, days after the shooting. "It's sad that as parents, you put your child to sleep, and lay them on the couch, and you're thinking all is well — but yet a coward decides they have nothing better to do than shoot rounds into a house that had two parents and nine children in there."


----------



## Vagabond63

Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?

Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting

Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.

Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.

Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...there have been a number of studies on this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there have and none of them outside the “John (lies a) Lott gun nut bubble” show any corelation between declining crime rates and increased gun ownership. Even the last link you posted to support your theory doesn’t mention guns. Homicide is declining around the world because we’re getting old
Click to expand...


All of the studies I linked to were outside of Dr. Lott's influence, done by independent researchers..........but keep lying......


I listed the studies, even quoted the conclusions.......

Again....you are lying.......you are intentionally playing stupid because the facts and the truth, using your own points about declining crime rates, show you are wrong and don't know what you are talking about.

You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.

I pointed out that the gun crime murder rate went down 49%, the gun crime rate down 75%, the violent crime rate 72% in the U.S.....this is more than the 46% down turn in crime in Europe..........

Then, I pointed out that as the entire world had decreasing crime rates, including the U.S......a variable was thrown in....increasing gun ownership, and increasing numbers of Americans owning and also carrying guns in public for self defense.

Now, according to you.....this variable should have not only stopped the decrease in the crime rate in the U.S.....as the rest of the world's crime rates went down....it should have, in fact, caused the opposite effect, and increase in crime in the U.S.....

Again, the opposite happened, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%........

This shows that guns in a country do not increase gun murder, gun crime, or violent crime........27 years of this variable show this.

As the studies....and there are more of them....show......guns in the hands of normal, law abiding people, also help reduce the crime rate.

First, by saving actual victims.....from rape, robbery and murder.....lives saved.

Second....by creating an environment where criminals do not want to interact with victims.....so they choose victimless crimes....residential burglary, instead of robbery.......

You are wrong....what you believe is not based in truth, facts or reality.......and each time you bring up points, in the end, they support my position and defeat yours.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in America…
> 
> Baby of pregnant Florida woman accidentally shot by husband dies
> 
> “The Martin County Sheriff's Office said a man said he mistook his pregnant wife for an intruder and shot her in the head, killing her.”
> 
> then there's this:
> 
> "As parents rushed to pick up their kids hours after a shooting at Hendersonville Middle School, two sisters described what they say was a frightening scene inside the gym.
> 
> That’s where police say a firearm was discharged by a 12-year-old boy, striking a 12-year-old girl in the leg."
> 
> 13-year-old accused of shooting classmate faces felony charge
> 
> Gosh, wonder where a 12 year old boy got the gun?
> 
> And more. Suspect in shooting death of 7-year-old Detroit girl arrested in Dallas
> 
> “Police said a vehicle drove by a home on the 3900 block of Bedford at about 8:20 p.m. on Oct. 28 and opened fire on the house. Reginae had been sleeping on a couch when she was struck in the head by shots fired through the living room window, police said. She died Oct. 30.
> 
> "It's sad when you can't go to sleep because you don't know if you'll wake up again," said her mother, Etosha Williams, days after the shooting. "It's sad that as parents, you put your child to sleep, and lay them on the couch, and you're thinking all is well — but yet a coward decides they have nothing better to do than shoot rounds into a house that had two parents and nine children in there."




1.1 million times a year, Americans use their legal guns to save lives......according to the Centers for Disease control

1.5 million times a year if you use the numbers from the Department of Justice research...

If you want to post stories....I can post stories......

Lancaster Woman Scares Off Bat-Wielding Attackers By Pulling Gun On Them

LANCASTER, Ohio - It happened along a walking path in Lancaster.

Dinah Burns is licensed to carry a concealed gun, but she'd only recently started taking her weapon while walking her dog.

Based on what happened, it looks like she'll make a point of carrying from now on.

"I think if they'd gotten any closer, I probably would have fired,” said Burns.

It was Monday when Burns was on a footpath near Sanderson Elementary School.

"Two gentlemen came out of the woods, one holding a baseball bat, and said 'You're coming with us'."

The men weren't deterred by Dinah's dog Gracie.

"I said, 'Well, what do you want?,' and as I was saying that I reached in to my pocket and slipped my gun out, slipped the safety off as I pulled it out. As I was doing that the other gentleman came toward me and raised the baseball bat. And, I pointed the gun at them and said, 'I have this and I'm not afraid to use it.'"

The men took off and so far have eluded police. Dinah posted about the incident on Facebook to alert friends and neighbors, to criticism by some.

"Most of the males' opinion was, 'Why didn't you shoot them?'"

Easy to second-guess a decision made under pressure, based on her concealed carry training, and police agree.

"To get out of a situation, back out, get out of it as much as you can without having to discharge your firearm."

"I will say it's a good thing to go from a place of danger to a place of safety, however you get that done,” said Sgt. Matt Chambers, Lancaster Police.

"Very thankful that it turned out the way it did, and hope it doesn't happen again, but I will be prepared."

12/24/17
'I had to take care of things': Gun-wielding Texas mother scares off intruder
The family does not want to be identified, but wanted to share the story in hope that awareness can help in similar situations.

The mother was at home with the family's 3-month-old daughter Thursday night. Her husband was out of town working, but was coming home Friday to celebrate the first Christmas with their daughter.

After tossing and turning in bed for a while, the mother was not able to fall asleep and went to the living room around 11:30 p.m.

About an hour later, she heard the home alarm beep and her back door open.

Her instinct kicked in.

"I froze for a second and then I realized I needed to spring into action, I mean, I had my baby in the house. I was alone. My husband was away on business, so I had to take care of things," she said.

She grabbed a gun and went towards the back door, where she found a man standing in her kitchen.

She yelled at the man while pointing the gun at him, and her dog ran towards him, scaring him out of the back door.

She locked the door and called 911.
================

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/22/suspect-puts-gun-mans-head-gets-shot/
*A suspect put a gun to a man’s head on Thursday only to flee under a barrage of bullets after the would-be victim pulled his own gun and opened fire.*

The incident occurred in Philadelphia’s West Oak Lane.

According to 6 ABC, Rahkeim Kelly was “headed home from buying a soda” when the suspect in a hoodie approached and put a gun to his head. Kelly managed to move away quickly, take cover behind a car, draw his own gun, and open fire.

The suspect, 22-year-old Osirus Lester, fled the scene.

Kelly said, “I fired two shots first, then he tried to take off running. I fired one more, then he ended up dropping the gun. He ran off and I just went and secured the weapon.”
Lester was arrested within minutes with a gunshot wound to his wrist.

Philadelphia Police Capt. Sekou Kinnebrew said, “[Kelly] does have a valid permit to carry. We checked that out. He’s the victim of a robbery. He did attempt to retreat, taking cover behind a car. But the offender continued to aggress, and (the victim) had to defend himself.”
=====================

11/25/17
Auto shop employees credited with taking down accused Rockledge gunman

ROCKLEDGE — A man armed with a .45-caliber handgun and a lot of ammunition wandered onto an auto repair shop property and began firing in the parking lot Friday afternoon, police said.

The gunman killed one employee and paralyzed a second. That's when the employees at Schlenker Automotive fought back with equal force, Rockledge police chief Joseph La Sata said.

"The manager, who was a concealed weapons permit holder, came out and engaged in gunfire in the parking lot," La Sata said. "The manager fled back inside the building, being chased by the gunman. Another Schlenker employee, who also had concealed weapons permit, engaged in gunfire with the suspect."

Police said the suspect in the homicide is Robert Lorenzo Bailey Jr., 28, of Cocoa. He was shot twice and was in critical condition at Health First's Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne. Officers are keeping him under watch.
===================
11/15/17

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/good-guy-gun-stops-sex-assault-hiking-trail

According to The Blaze, Josh Williams, 39, nearly left his handgun at home when heading out to the hiking trail on a dark morning back in September, but he felt the nagging sensation that he should take it anyway. That turned out to be the right call because while on the trail at 5:30 a.m., Williams heard a woman scream loud enough to get past his music-blaring earbuds. 

In the darkness, Williams shined his flashlight and discovered a woman being sexually assaulted and approached the perpetrator.

“I came up, pulled my gun and told him to get off of her,” Williams recalled. He then asked the man to get on his knees and asked to see his hands: “That way I knew he didn’t have a weapon. And at that point he was no threat, so I didn’t feel the need to shoot him.”

The perp ran away but thanks to a good description from both the victim and Williams, police were able to later apprehend 22-year-old Richard McEachern and charge him with sexual assault.

The victim was very glad Williams decided to carry that day and used a gun to save her from a dangerous situation. That was the first time Williams ever pointed his weapon at another person, but it confirmed for him the importance of the Second Amendment:



> “It’s dark, and I don’t know what’s out there, so I have it to protect myself and other people. That’s what it’s all about anyway — to help other people with it, not just myself.
> “I didn’t think I’d ever have to pull it. Did I want to? No, not at all. But just … right place, right time.”





> ====================


11/11/17

81-year-old homeowner fatally shoots armed robber

A suspect was shot and killed when he tried to rob an 81-year-old man at gunpoint outside of the man’s home in Genoa, Arkansas, on Thursday afternoon.

Buddy Cates told KSLA that he walked outside of his home around 1:30 p.m. and came face to face with the suspect, who authorities are still working to identify.

Cates said the suspect was holding a “big pistol,” but Cates also had his hand in his pocket, gripping his own gun.

“The battle was one,” Cates recalled, noting that, between the two, at least a dozen shots were fired.

“Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done,” Cates said. “In this case, it was me.”

Cates was uninjured, but the suspect died after he was taken to a hospital in Texarkana, not far from Cates’ home.

After the attempted robbery and subsequent shooting, three women were arrested in connection to the crime, according to reports from the Texarkana Gazette. Kiana Keshaun Montgomery, 21; Shaynesha Martin, 19; and Ke’Erica Turner, 20, are all facing charges for aggravated robbery and are being held at the Miller County Detention Center. Authorities did not say what part the women played in the robbery or whether they are believed to be responsible for other crimes.


11/4/17

Walmart shooting, where good guys didn't shoot

Colorado Walmart's Armed Innocents Hampered Police. Or Not. - The Truth About Guns

First, the police weren’t on scene when the killer fired his gun; they arrived _after_ the perp had escaped. Second, the armed good guys didn’t shoot other armed good guys (no shots were fired by anyone other than the bad guy). And third, other reports indicate that the killer scarpered _after_ he caught sight of armed opposition.

Given these facts one could easily argue that armed defenders prevented greater loss of life. And that all the anti-gun rights hysteria about the presence of armed innocents making\ cops’ jobs harder is a bunch of horsesh*t. I mean, how exactly did these armed Americans _threaten_ public safety?

------

Nine-point-nine times out of ten, the police are _not_ the first responders to an act of violence. The innocent people being attacked are the first responders. The idea that they should be disarmed to make it easier for armed police to respond — most often after the fact — is to say that it’s OK to sacrifice innocent life on the altar of imagined efficiency. It isn’t.

Besides, as National Association for Gun Rights Prez Dudley Brown told the _Times,_ “In that situation, what are people supposed to do? Lay down on the floor and draw chalk marks around themselves?”
11/1/17


Dallas Homeowner's Story Proves Why Private Citizens Need Guns

For one Dallas homeowner, however, the nightmare became reality.

A man that police believe intended to rob a Lake Highlands home was shot early Monday morning.

It happened in the 9500 block of Moss Farm Lane near Abrams Road and Royal Lane.

_The homeowner said the man first rang his doorbell around 5 a.m. He apologized for being at the wrong home and left.

A few minutes later the man came back, kicked in the door and forced his way inside. But the homeowner had a gun and opened fire, police said.

Neighbors said they heard about a half a dozen shots. When responding officers arrived they found the wounded suspect in the street. The suspect was taken to the hospital in critical condition. He is expected to survive, police said._

The homeowner and his wife were reportedly unhurt and are cooperating with investigators, which is to be expected. After all, it rarely gets to be a more clear case of self-defense than that. I mean, the suspect reportedly knew the house was occupied, yet busted the door in just the same. It’s not an unreasonable assumption to believe that he allegedly entered that home with harmful intent.

And he was shot for his troubles.

Now, he gets to recover from his wounds and contemplate his life choices that led him to get shot in some stranger’s house simply because he apparently thought he had the right to bust into someone else’s home. If he’s smart, he’ll realize he’s fortunate to be alive and seek the path of redemption.

10/20/17

Good guy with a gun stops kidnapping

It was habit, not heroism, that caused Justin Pearson to grab his gun.

But seconds later, that weapon enabled Pearson to stop a kidnapping taking place just outside his Las Vegas home on Oct. 5.

“We heard this real loud noise outside,” said Pearson, 36. “I opened up the door, and this big BMW goes flying by — 60 mph in a 25 mph zone. I dialed 911 immediately.”

As he always does before leaving his house, Pearson, a concealed-carry weapon permit holder, put his pistol on his hip. The 911 operator asked for a license plate number, so Pearson moved down the street to get it.

“He had lost control of the car and almost went into a house at the end of the street,” Pearson said. The BMW then turned around and stopped in front of a neighbor’s yard, where a 6-year-old boy was standing.

“About 50 yards in front of me, the driver grabs this young child and starts stuffing him in the car,” Pearson said.

“‘Holy crap, he just took a child, and he’s trying to stuff him into the car!’” Pearson remembers telling the operator.

Pearson is 6-foot-4 but makes a beanpole look stocky. The kidnapper, Pearson recalls, was a similar height, but was a “solid” 250 pounds.

“He was a very big dude, and I’m not a menacing person by any means,” Pearson said. “I don’t think I could have physically stopped the guy. It would have been super ugly if it was just me versus him.”

Fortunately, Pearson had a trump card — a Heckler & Koch VP9 pistol legally resting on his right hip.


“I carry a concealed firearm everywhere I go,” Pearson said. “I lifted up my shirt and put my hand on my gun.”

“‘Hey, stop!’ I said, real loud. He turned and looked at me. There was just enough of a delay for the kid to get out of the car. I know he saw the firearm.”

With the boy out of the car and an armed citizen staring him down, the man decided to drive away. Pearson and his still-holstered pistol stopped a kidnapping. Police wouldn’t arrive for 17 minutes.

“If I didn’t have a firearm, I don’t think there’s much I could have done,” Pearson said.

A Metropolitan Police Department spokeswoman confirmed many of the details in Pearson’s story, including the date, time and location. Pearson said — and Metro confirmed — that the would-be kidnapper was the boy’s biological father, who didn’t have parental rights or permission to take the child.

This isn’t the first time Pearson has used a firearm to stop a crime.

“Many years ago, I was carrying and a guy pulled a knife on a friend of mine,” Pearson said. “I quickly drew my firearm, and the kid ran away.”


These kinds of stories rarely make the news. But they happen more often than we realize and underscore an important point. Concealed-carry weapon permit holders prevent crimes.

============

10/16/17

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.
DC GUN-FREE ZONES CAUSE CONFUSION OVER LEGALITY OF GUN CARRY EVEN WITH A PERMIT

Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.

After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.

Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.

May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.

===========

1


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




10/11/17

Woman stabbed shoots and kills attacker...

Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.

About 4:05 p.m. Oct. 5, the 25-year-old man was shot in the chest when he stabbed the 25-year-old woman multiple times in the 4000 block of West 21st Street, Chicago Police said.

The woman was taken in serious condition to Mount Sinai Hospital, and the man was pronounced dead at the scene at 4:48 p.m., authorities said.

The Cook County medical examiner’s office identified him as Pleasure Cardell Singleton Jr.

The stabbing was believed to be a domestic incident, police said, but the nature of the relationship between the two wasn’t released.
======

9/25/17



> Would-be robber fatally shot by resident after forcing family into basement
> 
> A man was shot and killed inside a home in Hammond, Indiana, Friday morning while attempting to rob the residents.
> 
> According to a statement from the Hammond Police Department, the suspect, who has not been publicly identified, entered the home through the front door around 7:30 a.m. The suspect said he knew of a safe in the basement of the home and announced a robbery while threatening the residents with the firearm.
> 
> The suspect then forced three residents into the basement, but unbeknown to the would-be robber, there was a fourth resident inside the house as well. The fourth resident retrieved a handgun, and when the suspect came out of the basement and walked into the kitchen, he shot the suspect multiple times in the chest.
> 
> Police were called, and when officers arrived on the scene, the suspect, who was only identified as a black male, was found lying on the kitchen floor. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
> 
> ==========



9/8/17

Taco Bell employees shoot, kill armed robbery suspect

CLEVELAND – Three employees at a Cleveland Taco Bell shot and killed a suspect during an attempted robbery, according to police.

Officers responded to the restaurant on W. 117th street at 2:45 a.m. Wednesday morning for a report of a robbery with shots fired.

When police arrived, they found a suspect with multiple gunshot wounds. Officers administered first aid until EMS arrived. The suspect later died at MetroHealth Medical Center. The medical examiner later identified the suspect as 24-year-old Cleveland resident De'Carlo Jackson.

Another man, believed to be Jackson's accomplice, had already taken off by the time officers arrived.

Police say a preliminary investigation indicates that three Taco Bell employees, all armed, shot at the two suspects after they came into the restaurant wearing masks and ordered the employees to the ground at gunpoint.
==============

8/23/17

Police: Robber tries to take woman's purse, flees when 57-year-old shows gun at west Little Rock shopping center

The would-be robber reportedly grabbed the woman’s purse while it rested on her shoulder, at which point, the victim brandished a weapon she had stored inside.

According to the report, the assailant then fled west through the parking lot of the grocery store and behind Belk.

No items were listed as stolen from the woman.
===================
8/9/17

Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

*Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.*
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.

According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.

Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.


Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”

Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.

Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”


8/6/17

Police: Armed Woman Stops Road Rage Attacker with One Shot - Breitbart

*Police in Glendale, Arizona, say an armed woman stopped a road rage attacker with one shot on Wednesday.*
The armed motorist repeatedly said she was armed but the attacker ignored her warnings.

According to 3 TV/CBS 5, Glendale Police Sgt. Scott Waite said a driver that was cut off by another vehicle at 67th and Olive Avenues, and then followed the vehicle “to 59th Avenue and Bell Road where a physical altercation took place.”

The road rage suspect allegedly approached the car and struck the passenger in the face, at which point the female driver exited the vehicle and announced that she was armed. Unfazed, “the suspect then [allegedly] approached the armed driver and punched her in the face and continued to assault her, putting her into a headlock.”


Waite said the road rage suspect kept attacking the driver, even though the driver continued warning that she was armed. Realizing there was no other option, the driver then fired one shot, “ending the fight.”

A witness of the incident told 12 News, “One of them broke the car window of another car pulled the lady out and they started fighting in the middle of the street. One got on top of the other and the girl just pulled out a gun and shot her in the gut.”


8/2/17



> 66-year-old jewelry store owner beaten during robbery, shoots 2 suspects, third in custody
> 
> Authorities say the trio – *all of whom were armed with handguns *– entered the business around 2:45, displayed their weapons and demanded cash and merchandise before they began beating and pistol whipping the 66-year-old store owner. At some point during the assault, the store owner was able to break free and retrieve his own gun.
> 
> The owner opened fire on the suspects and a gunfight ensued. During this time, Gomez and Mitchell were struck by gunfire. The owner, although he sustained injuries from the assault, was not injured by gunfire.
> 
> Soon after shots were fired, the trio ran from the store and fled the area in a vehicle that had been parked at a nearby carwash.
> 
> Gomez, who suffered multiple gunshot wounds, was dropped off at an area hospital, and Mitchell was found lying in the roadway at another location. Gomez, who has robbery charges pending, remains hospitalized, while Mitchell was pronounced dead at the scene where he was found.
> 
> Two days after the robbery, authorities received a tip that Harris was hiding out in San Antonio, leading the Lone Star Fugitive Task Force to conduct surveillance. The Task Force witnessed Harris leave a residence then get into a vehicle and drive away. A subsequent traffic stop was conducted, during which time Harris surrendered without incident.




7/24/17

72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’

After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.

“They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”

Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.

“I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.

Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.

Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.


7/18/17
no shots fired....
17-Year-Old Spokane Girl Grabs Dad's Gun, Scares Off Home Intruder

On Monday morning, a 17-year-old Spokane girl gave a suspected car thief a rude reception when he invaded her house; brandishing her father’s gun in his face before he fled like a scared rabbit.

The entire sequence of events started at roughly 5:00 a.m. when deputies spotted a stolen car in the Wandermere area. Once they started pursuing the suspect, he fled on foot.

The police provided updates on the _The Wake Up Show_ on KHQ. Meanwhile, 17-year-old Kimber Wood's boyfriend and parents saw the updates, before they left for work. Her boyfriend met some deputies on his way, then called Kimber to inform him of what was happening.

Kimber called her father to ask if she could grab one of his guns. He assented, whereupon she placed it under her pillow and went back to sleep.

She awakened and heard an intruder, prompting her to grab the gun. Hiding behind her makeup vanity, she suddenly came face to face with the car thief.

Brandishing her gun, she pointed it at the suspect and said, "Who are you?" and "Get the (expletive) out of my house!"

The thief beat a hasty retreat after stealing her boyfriend’s ATV; but Kimber wanted to make sure he got the message, firing one shot into the ground as he fled.
=========================


How much money, how many lives are saved by armed americans...Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:

Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.

For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).

It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what _are_ the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .

In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.

The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.

In the K-G article _Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun,_ 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.

[NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]

How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.

According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.

So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 _trillion_ per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

*When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.

=========*





> This Guy Tried To Rob A 7-Eleven. The Clerk Had A Gun.
> 
> A man attempted to rob a 7-Eleven in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Saturday, but was stopped by a clerk with a gun.
> 
> The man, identified as Davin McClenney, allegedly attempted the robbery at 1:06 a.m. but was shot by a 7-Eleven clerk who has not yet been publicly identified.
> 
> When police arrived at the scene, McClenney was already down with a bullet in his upper body. He was taken to the hospital, where he is currently in critical condition.
> 
> *McClenney has a prior criminal record that includes three robberies, one of which was a home invasion in July 2016 that involved him reportedly taking numerous items from the homeowner at gunpoint. He was set to stand trial for the crime in August, but a judge granted his release from jail on bond in December.*



=================
6/2/17 teenage thug shot and killed

Chicago teen fatally shot by CCP-holder during attempted robbery

A 16-year-old boy is dead after he allegedly tried to rob a man outside of a bank in the Oak Park area of Chicago Saturday morning.

Police say it appears the teen, who was armed with a gun, approached the 24-year-old victim just after 11 a.m. intending to commit a robbery. However, the would-be victim was also armed and an exchange of gunfire occurred.

The teen, who was identified as Damon Phillips, was shot multiple times in the chest and fled the scene in a waiting car. He later showed up at an area hospital where he was pronounced dead about half an hour after the attempted robbery. It wasn’t immediately known how Phillips got to the hospital or whether there was a second suspect involved.

The victim, who authorities confirmed has a valid permit to carry a concealed weapon, was not injured.

No charges have been filed at this time, although the incident remains under investigation.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information
> 
> 
> 5/110/17 Chicago car jackers shot
> 
> 
> Alleged carjacker shot, wounded on SW Side
> 
> CHICAGO (WLS) --
> The victim of an apparent carjacking shot and wounded one of the two men who allegedly tried to steal his vehicle Wednesday afternoon on the city's Southwest Side, police said.
> 
> The carjacker was shot in the groin, and were nabbed by police outside an auto repair shop near 63rd and Whipple in the Chicago Lawn neighborhood.
> 
> The 29-year-old owner of the vehicle, who has a valid conceal and carry license, fired his weapon after the two men approached him outside his PT Cruiser near 62nd and Homan.
> 
> The carjacker who was hit, a 25-year-old man, was taken to Christ Medical Center where he was in good condition on Wednesday, police said.
> 
> A witness said that by the time the PT Cruiser pulled into the driveway of the auto repair shop, it was being followed by five to six police cars.
> 
> Surveillance video captured the moment when police approached the vehicle outside the auto repair shop, two people in the car with their hands up.
> 
> Police found blood in the backseat and a flat tire.
> 
> Both offenders were in custody Wednesday
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 1/23/17
> 
> 
> Pizza Delivery Man Shot, Returns Fire
> 
> In southwest Philadelphia, a pizza deliveryman was ambushed and shot after he arrived at the location of a "customer."
> 
> 
> 
> The 36-year-old father of eight was delivering pizzas for Chester Pizza just after 7 p.m. Someone had called for a delivery and gave the address of an abandoned house in the 5300 block of Yocum Street
> 
> 
> He got out of his car and almost immediately found himself face-to-face with the armed suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> "A group of males came from the abandoned property towards him," said Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker. "One pulled a gun, pointed it at the pizza delivery driver's head (and) demanded money and pizzas."
> 
> Keyveat Fredericks struggled with the attackers and then made it to his car. "I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me," he described.
> 
> He was shot on his arm and hip.
> 
> But Fredericks didn't give up. He hid behind his car, unholstered his weapon, and shot back.
> =======
> 
> 1/11/17 Armed citizen saves trooper
> 
> Armed Man Saves Wounded Arizona State Trooper - The Truth About Guns
> ==========================
> 1/10/17
> 
> Pawn store shoot out video...you see owner shoot and kill one, the other runs away...
> 
> 
> GUN FIGHT: Breaking Down the Dixie Gun & Pawn Robbery
> 
> 12/19/16
> 
> 
> Armed citizens foil 2 separate robberies in Philadelphia
> 
> Two attempted robberies in Philadelphia over the weekend were stopped when both intended targets fought back against and fired at their assailants.
> 
> The first attempted robbery occurred at an auto repair shop around 6:30 p.m. in the Elmwood area of the city. According to local reports, after the armed robber entered the shop, the owner shot the suspect a total of three times – once in the chest, once in the shoulder and once in the buttocks.
> 
> When police arrived on the scene, the 30-year-old suspect was transported to a local hospital. As of Sunday night, he remained in critical condition.
> 
> Police say they recovered a weapon from the scene. Neither the suspect or the shop owner’s names have been released.
> 
> The second incident unfolded about three hours later, shortly after 9:30 p.m., when a pizza delivery driver was making what he thought was a delivery in a northeast neighborhood.
> 
> As the 52-year-old driver, who police confirmed is licensed to carry a concealed firearm, walked up to the house where he was supposed to make the delivery, he was jumped from behind by the suspects. They initially made off with $82 from the driver, but as they attempted to make their escape, the driver opened fire, striking one of the suspects in the leg.
> 
> ===============
> 11/15/16
> 
> Armed Bystander Guns Down Criminal Suspect Attacking Cop
> 
> A passerby carrying a concealed weapon shot and killed a criminal suspect who was attacking a sheriff’s deputy in Estero, Fla.
> 
> Deputy Dean Bardes was pursuing a fleeing suspect in a 100 mph car chase down Interstate 75 when the suspect abruptly stopped, exited his car, and attacked Bardes after he did the same, acording to local WINK News. The suspect, whom the deputy says was armed, got the better of Bardes, who began crying for help.
> 
> “The officer opened his door, and the guy got out and ran out and grabbed the officer out of his car and started beating him profusely, throwing him to the ground and punching him in all different directions,” eyewitness Shanta Holditch told local station NBC-2.
> 
> ---------
> 
> *The bystander pointed his gun at the suspect and warned he would fire if he didn’t stop attacking the deputy. When the suspect refused, the bystander shot him three times, allowing Bardes to escape. The man later died from his injuries.*
> 
> Bardes avoided being shot and was released from the hospital Monday afternoon after being treated for minor injuries.
> ===============================
> 
> 11/3/16
> 
> 73-Year-Old Homeowner Kills Two Armed Robbers: Defensive Gun Use of the Day - The Truth About Guns
> 
> An [unnamed] active 73-year-old retiree was well liked in his South St. Louis neighborhood. He helped people out. He spent much of his time in his garage working on his truck. The retiree had been a victim of robbery attempts before. The armed homeowner was in his garage, working on his truck, when two men entered with guns drawn. From fox2now.com:
> 
> A 73-year-old man told police that he shot the suspects after they attempted to rob him. Investigators say that the man was inside of his garage when the suspects entered the door and displayed their guns. Police say that one of the suspects held a gun to the victim’s head and demanded the victim back up.
> 
> The victim said he got out his gun and, fearing for his safety, shot at the men. Police say that the victim’s gun and the guns used by the suspects were recovered from the scene. The gun recovered from Jonathan Warren was reported stolen on Sunday by the Florissant Police Department.
> 
> The homeowner’s marksmanship didn’t let him down. The two dead robbers, Jonathan Warren, 18, and Lonnie Middlebrook, 20, had significant criminal histories. No surprise there. From stltoday comments:
> 
> Case.net shows these two were certainly not on the path to stellar citizenship. Middlebrook already had charges pending on unlawful possession of a firearm over the summer. The other guy had charges for elder abuse and property damage with intent to steal. Plus it looks like they both had several run-ins with MetroLink.
> 
> =============
> 
> 10/25/16
> 
> 
> A Thug Tried To Carjack An Armed Senior. Wanna Guess What Happened Next?
> 
> An elderly Oklahoma man passing through Sioux Falls (SD) was attacked by a man half his age who must have thought that a man 42 years his senior sitting in a car with the door open would be easy target for a carjacking.
> 
> He figured wrong.
> 
> “The driver’s door was cracked slightly. While they were in there, what ends up being our suspect came along and pulled open the door and started punching the man in the head. Telling him to get out. He was trying to take the car,” said Sioux Falls Police Officer, Sam Clemens.
> 
> What the suspect didn’t know was the 71-year-old man he was was hitting over the head was carrying a concealed weapon. The Oklahoma man sitting with his wife took a 38 caliber handgun out of his pocket and shot the suspect twice.
> 
> “There’s some type of reciprocity so if you’re issued a concealed weapons permit in another state, as long as there’s that agreement between the states, then you’re allowed to carry concealed in a different state,” said Clemens.
> 
> The carjacking suspect, 34-year-old Edward Leblanc of Bismark, was found near McDonald’s on West 41st Street. He will most likely face charges of robbery and simple assault, once he’s released from the hospital.
> 
> ==========================
> 
> 10/9/16
> 
> South Carolina 14 year old school shooter stopped by concealed carry gun owner...
> 
> 
> Townville, SC School Shooter Was Taken Down By Armed Citizen
> 
> It turns out that volunteer firefighter Jamie Brock was in fact armed with a handgun when he took down the teenager who murdered his father and then went of a shooting spree at Townville Elementary School.
> 
> A firefighter who had been reported to be unarmed when he took down a 14-year-old accused in a school shooting was actually carrying a handgun, the sheriff revealed Monday.
> 
> Jamie Brock, 30-year veteran volunteer firefighter, confronted J___ O___*, who is accused of killing his father and a first-grader and wounding a teacher and another 6-year-old on Wednesday.
> 
> Brock was the first to reach Townville Elementary School Wednesday afternoon after Osborne opened fire on the playground, authorities said.
> 
> Fire Chief Billy McAdams said he and Brock were at his nearby farm when they heard the call about the shooting, and they raced to the school, getting there before deputies.
> 
> The Townville Volunteer Fire Department is just down the road from the school. Brock got to the elementary school moments before other officers could respond to a 911 call.
> 
> By the time Brock reached the playground, first-grade teacher Meghan Hollingsworth and Jacob Hall and another boy had been wounded.
> 
> McAdams said Brock took the shooter down, and he did not mention the gun.
> 
> 
> ========================
> 9/21/16
> 
> 
> Woman Kills One of Three Home Invasion Suspects in Gun Battle
> 
> *On Friday, a woman in Gwinnett County, Georgia, opened fire on three home invasion suspects who woke her from sleep by kicking in her door around 4 a.m.*
> One of the three home invasion suspects was killed during the exchange of fire. The other two fled the scene.
> 
> According to WSBTV, the woman and a man were in bed when they heard the sound of people kicking their way into the home. The woman grabbed her gun and confronted the invasion suspects, exchanging gunfire with at least one of them. Police said 28-year-old Antonia Leeks was shot and killed in the gun battle.
> 
> The woman owns a restaurant, and police believe this drew attention to her and ultimately led to the home invasion/attempted robbery. Gwinnett County police Cpl. Deon Washington said, “This is a very harrowing experience for anyone to endure. She’s shaken. It’s a very difficult experience for anyone to deal with.”
> 
> 
> ================================
> 9/16/16
> 
> Pastor's wife shoots suspect during robbery in NE Philadelphia
> The pastor was hit in the head with the rifle by the bandit.
> 
> His wife then pulled out a gun, she was licensed to carry, and shot the suspect in the leg, police say.
> 
> Pastor Robert Cook describes the moment his wife shot the suspect.
> 
> "And I turned like I was going to get my wallet, but I was stalling. And he hit me in the head with the gun. He swung it like a baseball bat.
> And everything was like lightning for a minute. And then I heard my wife saying, drop the gun, drop the gun. I'm like she's got her gun. He turns towards her, and I said, shoot him, shoot him. And she shot him."
> 
> The suspect ran off bleeding from the scene, jumped onto the running board of a passing SUV while tossing the rifle.
> Police put out description of that man, and a few minutes later, he was spotted near Frankford Hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> =================================
> 9/12/16
> 
> 
> 1 dead, 2 critically injured after shooting at Kansas Walmart
> 
> One person was dead and two others were critically injured after a shooting at a Walmart in Kansas on Sunday, police said.
> 
> Shawnee police spokesman Dan Tennis said In a news release that the incident occurred shortly before 1:30 p.m. (2:30 p.m. ET) at a Walmart southwest of Kansas City.
> 
> As a woman was placing her infant in a car seat in the store's parking lot, Tennis said, two suspects struck her in the back of the head with an unspecified object.
> 
> Tennis said a good Samaritan was shot repeatedly after trying to help her. A second good Samaritan then intervened, Tennis said, shooting and killing one of the suspects.
> 
> The second suspect fled and was apprehended by a K-9 team near the store, Tennis said.
> 
> Both victims remained hospitalized in critical condition, he said.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Four People, Dog Stabbed During Buffalo Grove Home Invasion
> 
> *CHICAGO (CBS) —* Four people and their family dog were stabbed early Wednesday, when two masked men broke into their home in north suburban Buffalo Grove.
> 
> Police said the homeowner grabbed a handgun during the home invasion, and opened fire, chasing off the suspects.
> 
> Just after midnight, police responded to a home invasion in the 400 block of St. Marys Parkway, and found several windows had been broken, and the front door had been forced open. Officers discovered a bloody scene inside.
> 
> Witnesses told police that two masked attackers had broken in, and a man armed with a large hunting knife repeatedly stabbed the 49-year-old homeowner. Three other people and the family’s German Shepherd also were stabbed.
> 
> During the struggle, the homeowner retrieved a handgun, and opened fire, causing the attackers to run away.
> 
> “It’s pretty shocking,” neighbor Bob Meyer said. “This neighborhood is very, very quiet. We’ve lived here for 30-plus years, and this stuff just doesn’t happen here; just doesn’t happen.”
> 
> ==========
> Mom-to-be shoots intruder with her pink pistol
> 
> A man is recovering from a gunshot wound after he broke into a Birmingham home early Friday morning and came face-to-face with a pregnant woman who was ready to protect herself and her baby.
> 
> Marquita Turner said she heard the suspect remove the air conditioning unit from a side window around 2:20 a.m. Once the unit was out, the suspect climbed right inside, but he likely wasn’t expecting to meet Turner with her pink Taurus Millennium 9mm.
> 
> “I grabbed my gun when I woke up. And I walked out of the door and I saw them, the guy in the hallway … he was kind of close to me so I shot and he fell,” Turner told reporters with alocal NBC affiliate.
> 
> Turner said she fired two or three rounds and struck the intruder once, then turned on the lights and called the police. Once they arrived, the suspect was taken to the hospital for treatment. He was expected to survive.
> 
> Turner, who is currently five months pregnant, said she purchased her gun two years ago for protection, but she’s never been to the range or otherwise had any type of training or target practice. Still, she’s glad she had the means to protect herself when she needed to. She said she doesn’t know what could have happened had she not be able to protect herself and her unborn baby.
> 
> 
> ===============
> With a Gun to her Head, This Woman Knew How to Level the Playing Field (and her assailant)
> 
> Police in Glendale, AZ said it was in the early morning hours on Monday when 23-year-old Carol Miracle stopped in at a Circle K convenience store at 59th Avenue and Camelback Road and encountered a violent armed robber.
> 
> When police responded to a call of shots fired at approximately 1 a.m., witnesses at the scene said they saw 27-year-old Frank Taylor holding a gun to Carol’s head in an apparent armed robbery.
> 
> *But even with a gun to her head, the young woman knew how to level the playing field with her assailant, and was well equipped to do so.*
> 
> As Taylor held the barrel to her skull, Carol reached for her own gun holstered at her hip. She drew her weapon and took aim, firing one shot to end the attack.
> 
> Taylor was transported to a nearby hospital where he died from his injuries.
> 
> Police said Carol also called 9-1-1 to report the shooting from her home, which is in walking distance from the convenience store, and told police she was in fear for her life.
> 
> 
> ========
> Kentucky Man Wins Knock-Knock Game With Armed Robbers
> 
> A homeowner in Booneville, KY said he did what he had to in order to protect himself and his sleeping wife Tuesday morning when a group of home invaders knocked on his door and pulled a gun on him.
> 
> When James Stewart heard a knock at his door at 5 a.m., he armed himself with his pistol ‘just in case something went wrong’ before opening it to the woman outside who was asking for help. When he opened the door, his hunch was right – the woman was not alone.
> 
> Police said when Stewart opened the door, 42-year-old Charles Harris jumped out and pointed a gun right at the elderly homeowner’s head.
> 
> “I had my pistol in my hand, up and four shots. He fell to the ground and never moved,” said Stewart.
> 
> Harris was pronounced dead at the scene.
> 
> The woman who knocked on Stewart’s door was also shot in the arm. She managed to make it to their getaway car and the driver brought the woman, identified as 36-year-old Linda Peters, to a local hospital where she is being treated for her injuries.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




Criminals steal guns.....criminals with children are careless with their guns.........British criminals get guns as well.....you can't stop them.....

Meanwhile...1.1 million Americans use their legal guns to save lives...

And in a country with over 330 million people, and 72 million Children....how many children died in gun accidents in 2018?  54.

How many died in car accident?

Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

*2018......

Guns......54*

Motor vehicle..... 2,456



*Total Cars:  1,261

*


Suffocation:  1,162

*Drowning: 698

Poisoning:  66

Traffic: 2,456

Guns: 54



Under age drinking:*

Underage Drinking-Why Do Adolescents  Drink, What Are the Risks, and How Can Underage Drinking Be Prevented?

Each year, approximately 5,000 young people under the age of 21 die as a result of underage drinking; this includes about 1,900 deaths from motor vehicle crashes, 1,600 as a result of homicides, 300 from suicide, as well as hundreds from other injuries such as falls, burns, and drownings (1–5).


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information






Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




And more......

Man Armed With a Handgun Saves Cop Who Was Pinned to the Ground By Suspect - Inside Edition

Wheeler said he was being attacked by a homeless man who later acknowledged to officers that he was high on crystal meth. Knocked to the ground and fighting to subdue the “very irritated and out of sorts” attacker, Wheeler ended up on his back with the man straddling him.

“I’ve never been in that situation before,” the 14-year department veteran told InsideEdition.com Wednesday. “I’ve always been able to take control of a situation.”

Earlier this week, Wheeler was able to reward Dylan DeBoard, the man who saved him, with the city’s Citizen’s Award of Valor. Every day, he remembers that day last year when things could have turned out far, far worse.

He often stops by DeBoard’s home, Wheeler said, just to say thanks. “Every time I see him I let him know how much I appreciate what he did.”

On that day last year, Wheeler’s shoulder microphone had been ripped off in the tussle, so he couldn’t call for back-up. And then the man started going for Wheeler’s gun. And that’s when Wheeler began to think he was running out of options.

“I pulled him in close to me to try to restrict his range of motion,” Wheeler said. But the suspect just kept “trying to reach my belt.”

And right about then, the man sat back and put his hands up. Wheeler wondered ‘What the …?’

He lifted his head and looked in the direction the man was staring. There stood another man, with a gun.

“I didn’t know if he was pointing at me or him,” Wheeler said, meaning the man sitting on him. That’s when DeBoard announced he had a concealed weapon permit.

While the suspect was distracted, Wheeler managed to flip him over and handcuff him.
=============

Yes....this woman wakes up at 6.am. to be pistol whipped by 3 armed home invaders.....while her 2 children are sleeping. She manages to get to her pistol and shoots the a******s and they run. She manages to hit at least one them who apparently assumed room temperature.

Too bad she had that gun. Now that poor, violent sociopath was killed. It is really a shame when 3 gun toting, violent sociopaths can't enter a home at 6 a.m., pistol whip the woman in the home, and who knows what else they planned, and without getting shot at. Something really needs to be done....she should never have had that gun in the first place...I am sure had she not had that gun.....and other than the pistol whipping, these 3 violent sociopaths meant her no harm.....er.....other than the pistol whipping......

What kind of country do we live in when even violent sociopaths aren't safe from gun violence....?

DGU of the Day: Trotwood Ohio Woman Defeats Three Home Invaders - The Truth About Guns

Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.

The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.

All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:

“I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”

In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.
Now....here is the thing.....the gun grabbers on U.S. will first tell us that this never happens.

Next they will tell us that the defender with a gun will never be able to actually use the gun because they aren't Navy Seals.

Next they will say, there is no way a good woman with a gun will ever win because she will be easily disarmed.

So......3 men with guns grab a woman with the element of surprise. They hit her, probably injuring her. She manages to get her gun and shoot the three of them out of her house killing one of the a******s in the process.........and I didn't see anywhere in the article where she was the first woman Navy Seal.

===========

Rifle-Wielding North Carolina Teen Scares Off Home Invaders: Defensive Gun Use of the Day - The Truth About Guns


_Kirk Puckett, a spokesperson for the Alamance County Sheriff’s Office, said two sisters, 12 and 13, were inside the home when they heard knocking on the front door.

Puckett said when they looked outside, they saw three unfamiliar men. He said the older sister grabbed her dad’s rifle.

The suspects then broke in through the back door. Puckett said the 13-year-old pointed the rifle at them, causing them to run away without taking anything.

Neighbors praise the teen for her quick thinking.

“I am in awe of that young lady,” Jackie Garrison said. “To have had that kind of thoughtfulness going on in a time of crisis in her head to where that’s what she did, instead of running and hiding. She probably stopped something major from going on.”_
At the risk of losing my PC credentials, Ms. Garrison ain’t whistlin’ Dixie. Three men breaking into a home with two teenage girls is a recipe for unthinkable atrocity. Only it _is_thinkable — by anyone who understands the value of hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Including teaching their children how to react in an emergency.

=======



> http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/3252...fire-exchanged-between-pokemon-players-robber
> 
> Two people were wounded Monday morning after an exchange of gunfire involving a group of Pokemon Go players at a northeast Las Vegas park.
> According to Lt. David Gordon, of Las Vegas Metro police, a call of the incident came in at 4:02 a.m. at Gary Reese Freedom Park in the 800 block of North Mojave Road.
> Six people were playing Pokemon Go at the park when a person in a vehicle pulled up on the group and attempted to rob them, Gordon said. One of the Pokemon Go players, though, pulled out his own weapon and exchanged fire with the other gunman.
> The armed Pokemon Go player was wounded in the incident and was transported to a nearby hospital. The person believed to be the attempted robber was dropped off at a medical facility with a wound of his own.
> ===============
> Elderly homeowner foils attempted break in, shoots, kills would-be intruder in San Antonio
> 
> SAN ANTONIO — A man in his late 70s who shot and killed a would-be intruder Thursday morning on the Northwest Side is not expected to face charges at this time, police said.
> 
> Authorities arrived at the 9700 block of Autumn Dew around 10 a.m. after the homeowner and his wife, who is in her late 60s, called police to report that a man was attempting to break into their home.
> 
> SAPD spokesperson Douglas Greene said the elderly man pleaded with the attempted intruder to stop his efforts to get into the couple's home, but the man continued to force his way into the home, eventually breaking the door handle.
> 
> That's when Greene said the homeowner fired his revolver at the door, striking the man, who is in his 40s, in the chest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =====================
> Pistol vs ak-47
> 
> Waffle House Customer Shoots Robber Carrying AK-47
> 
> A robber armed with an AK-47 assault weapon stormed a Texas Waffle House, only to be shot by a pistol-packing customer, police say.
> A concerned customer and licensed handgun holder told police his wife was on her way to meet him at the establishment. Fearing that the armed robber could harm her, he told police that he confronted the gunman in the parking lot.
> When the suspect turned to face the armed customer with his rifle pointing in the customer’s direction, the licensed handgun holder opened fire, shooting him several times, police said.
> 
> ==========
> another night club shooting...
> 
> 
> Deputies: Man charged after opening fire, wounding several people at nightclub
> 
> LYMAN, SC (FOX Carolina) -
> 
> Deputies with Spartanburg County said a man faces multiple attempted murder charges after opening fire outside a nightclub early Sunday morning.
> 
> The shooting happened around 3:30 a.m. at Playoffz nightclub on Inman Road in Lyman.
> 
> Deputies said 32-year-old Jody Ray Thompson pulled out a gun after getting into an argument with another man and fired several rounds toward a crowd that had gathered out in front of the club.
> 
> "His rounds struck 3 victims, and almost struck a fourth victim, who in self-defense, pulled his own weapon and fired, striking Thompson in the leg," Lt. Kevin Bobo said.
> 
> Bobo said the man who shot Thompson has a valid concealed weapons permit, cooperated with investigators, and won’t be facing any charges.
> 
> "Thompson was still on the scene when deputies arrived, but the initial scene was chaotic," Bobo said. "It wasn’t until victims and witnesses were interviewed, and video from the scene was reviewed that Thompson was identified as the suspect."
> 
> Thompson was charged four counts of attempted murder, *possession of a weapon during the commission of a violent crime, and unlawful carrying of a weapon.
> 
> ----------------------*
> 6/3/16
> 
> 
> What I want you to know on Gun Violence Awareness Day | Fox News
> 
> I correctly listened to my instincts; I had a feeling that my life was in danger in that elevator and prepared myself mentally for what was potentially to come.
> 
> I ran to my car in an attempt to escape and, before I could even get my entire body in my car, I was tackled by my attacker.
> 
> This man quickly overpowered me, stabbed at me with a knife, clamped his hand over my mouth multiple times, and repeatedly tried forcing me in the passenger seat of my car while telling me, “We’re going.”
> 
> *The entire time this was happening, a rusted, serrated knife was being stabbed towards my abdomen and held at my face.
> 
> I had been hit in the face, thrown over my driver’s side console, and had rips in my tights from his hands trying to force my legs up and over into the passenger seat.*
> 
> There are some individuals that think gun owners are “trigger happy” and wanting to pull their weapons out at the first opportunity. There is nothing further from the truth.
> 
> The night I was attacked, I fought like hell for my life before reaching for my gun. I kicked, I screamed, I had all ten fingernails ripped off and bloodied from scratching and trying to fight my way out of a literal life and death situation.
> 
> *Ultimately, I accessed my gun, shot my attacker multiple times, and saved my life. He will be spending years in prison for what he did to me.*
> 
> Using a gun in self-protection is not a decision one makes lightly; in fact, I never dreamed that I would be forced into a situation where I would have to do so. However, I also never imagined such evil existing in the world so that I would be powerless, wounded, on my back and unable to physically force my attacker off of me.
> 
> I owned a gun and had been trained on how to use it. I know how to safely carry and that a gun is a serious and significant weapon; it is not to be used carelessly. Naysayers and people with opposing opinions may try to undermine my situation with hypotheticals. I cannot answer these questions. All I can do is tell the facts of my story and the true account of how I saved my own life.
> 
> *What I want you to know on Gun Awareness Day is that a gun in the hands of a potential victim is not improperly placed; it can be the only thing keeping her from being brutally raped and murdered. *
> 
> Without my gun, I would not be alive today.
> 
> 
> *Guns are not the problem in America; men like my attacker -- who are willing to violently change one person’s life for no reason except for pure evil – are the problem.*
> 
> Be safe at all times. Be aware of your surroundings. Trust your instincts. Always be able to protect yourself. Refuse to be a victim, and instead be a fighter and a survivor. Live to tell your tale and make a criminal regret the day he chose you as a “soft target.” My gun saved my life, and one could save yours too.
> 
> ------------
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are over 19.4 million Americans who can legally carry guns in this country.....a country of over 330 million people.....spread out across a land mass the size of western europe.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …and yet you keep arguing that these19.4 million people are responsible for almost halving the crime rate! Wow! Disband the police, the FBI and the Texas Rangers, you don’t need them any more, you have those 19.4 million “superheroes” with gunz!
Click to expand...


*and yet you keep arguing that these19.4 million people are responsible for almost halving the crime rate!*

*That is wrong, that is a lie......I have never stated that, even close to stating that.......you know I haven't so you lie, in order to hide what I have actually proven and shown....

I have shown that as more Americans own and carry guns, the gun murder rate did not go up....the gun crime rate did not go up....the violent crime rate did not go up....

That is what I have shown, even as you pointed out that around the world the crime rate went down.........trying to hide the fact that the crime rate in the U.S., in particular gun crime....went down faster......

Guns in the hands of normal people do not increase the gun crime rate........

Then...after that.....there are studies that show that as more people begin to carry guns for self defense, it changes the way criminals choose victims and even the types of crime they engage in.....

Two separate issues that you are trying to conflate because you are dishonest and can't win your arguments with facts, truth or reality.*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




And more....

80-Year-Old Shows Us That Age Is Just A Number, Taking Out Armed Robbers During Home Invasion – Concealed Nation

Preying upon the hospitality of strangers, police are alleging that 23-year-old Whitney Kabiru approached the door of an 80-year-old man’s home and asked for help. When the elderly man opened the door, two men attempted to rob him with a BB pistol, according to a press release from the Fairmont Police Department. And for those two men, they couldn’t have made a worse mistake.

As WBOY 12 News reports, by the time Fairmont police arrived at the scene, Larry Shaver, 28, was found dead in the road with a gunshot to his head and neck area. His accomplice, John Grossklaus, 28, was recovered across the street from where the attempted robbery took place with a bullet through his abdomen. After taking Grossklaus to the hospital for treatment for his gunshot wound, he was arraigned in a local magistrate’s court.  The judge set his bond at $250,000.

---------------
4/16/16


Backseat Driver: Man Shoots his Kidnappers in Front Seat

When a man was kidnapped and stuffed into a backseat by two individuals in Nevada this week, they didn’t know he was equipped to shift their plan into park. Permanently.

After taking the man from his home, the kidnappers showed him they already had one of his store employees zip-tied in the backseat of their Nissan Altima. That’s when the man, who is reportedly a jeweler, then entered the car to appease the kidnappers. What they didn’t realize is that the man they were putting into the seat behind them had a concealed weapon.

During the car ride, as the men drove their hostages through a subdivision in Henderson, the man shot his kidnappers from the back seat, killing them both.
4/6/16  no shots fired story...


Armed Citizen Saves Security Officer from 'Tire Iron' Beating

An armed citizen intervened in a parking lot attack, saving a loss prevention officer from an impending “tire iron” assault at the hands of robbery suspects.

According to KVII, Amarillo police say that around 12:45 p.m. on April 3, 35-year-old Ricky Solis was in a Home Depot parking lot in Amarillo, Texas, when he “[took] power tools from the store and left without paying.”

A loss prevention officer reportedly cornered Solis in the parking lot, and a struggle ensued. Police say that during the struggle a second suspect began attacking the loss prevention officer and kicked him in the face.

The second suspect went to his vehicle, grabbed a “tire iron,” and returned, apparently planning to use the iron on the officer.

At that point, a citizen with a concealed carry permit intervened, stopping the attack and reportedly forcing Solis to comply long enough to allow the loss prevention officer to handcuff him and hold him until police arrived.

Solis was arrested for robbery, and the second suspect was able to flee the scene.
4/2/16


I believe the Thug Union Local 911 will be filing a grievance against the city for allowing victims to fight back....

Man Shoots, Kills Carjacker Near Goudy School Thursday

The men handed over their wallets and cash, Trainor said, but the robber then demanded their car.

One of the 23-year-old men then pulled out a gun and shot the robber multiple times, Trainor said. The alleged robber was taken to Advocate Illinois Masonic Medical Center where he was pronounced dead, she said.

According to Uptown Update, the man who killed the alleged robber was a former security guard with a concealed-carry permit.

And is anyone even remotely suprised by this little factoid......

*The robber was on parole for an armed robbery conviction, police said.*

3/24/16 1 vs. 5


Liquor Store Shootout After Attempted Armed Robbery in Denver

Just after 11 p.m. on Monday night, one Denver liquor store sounded more like a gun range than a fire water shop.



Five people entered the liquor store in an attempted robbery, but little did they know the clerk on duty wasn’t interested in being robbed or becoming a victim. He drew a weapon on the robbers and let them know he wasn’t going down without a fight.

“Shots were exchanged,” Sonny Jackson, DPD spokesman, said Tuesday morning.

Scared off by the return gunfire, the suspects took off, leaving one of their crew with a gunshot wound to the leg at Denver Health Medical Center. Police later speculated the wound may have been self-inflicted.



3/24/16


Mother Shoots Intruder 'Multiple Times' to Save Baby - Breitbart

*An Indianapolis mother shot a man “multiple times” after he allegedly broke into the home through the window in the baby’s room.*

According to CBS 4, family members said that around noon on March 24, the woman “heard the window get busted and she called her husband and said I think somebody’s breaking in the house.”

She grabbed her pistol and ran toward the sound of breaking glass, only to be confronted by the alleged intruder who shot at her, but missed.

The mother then opened fire and struck the suspect “multiple times.” He was transported to a hospital for treatment.

In addition to being armed, a 911 dispatcher said the suspect was “carrying zip ties and a walkie-talkie.”
-------------
3/22/16  3-4 thugs

14 year old girl who is shot, clears malfunction and shoots back

video in link...


14-Year-Old Girl Shot By Home Invaders, Shoots Back: Defensive Gun Use of the Day - The Truth About Guns

3/22/16
Woman vs. 3 thugs no shots fired

CCW IN ACTION: Armed 22-Year-Old Woman Stops Three Men Attempting To Rob Her In Store Parking Lot – Concealed Nation

OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA — A concealed carrier successfully thwarted the efforts of three men to rob her late at night outside a Dollar Tree. According to police reports from the scene, the woman was exiting the Dollar Tree and heading to her car when she was approached by a man and asked to walk with him. When she refused, he point-blank told her he was going to rob her of her purse.

At this point, according to KOCO, she was presented by two other men backing up the first. She withdrew her concealed carry pistol from her purse and threatened to use it to protect herself. All three men quickly exited and fled the scene.
3/15/16


St. Paul Woman Stops Violent Attack on Husband by Drawing Her Gun

A St. Paul, Minnesota man was brutally assaulted by a gang of 15 to 30 young men who were gambling in his driveway as he returned from work.


32-year-old Bruce Chang says when he tried to clear the group to gain access to his driveway, they began to assault him, even throwing rocks and jabbing sticks at his face and torso.

“I didn’t know I was stabbed but I felt the pressure and fell to one knee,” he said. “I immediately pushed off, because you got to survive.”

Although Chang had obtained his firearms permit for personal protection years ago, he is not allowed to carry at his workplace and says that’s why he did not have his weapon on him when he returned home that day.

Fortunately for him, his wife also has a permit. She was able to run outside and draw her gun – scaring off the gang and ending her husband’s violent attack.

“With one of my older neighbors, who knows what would have happened,” Chang said.
3/13/16


Woman Scares off Assailant With Stick. Just Kidding, it was a gun.

Just before 7pm on Wednesday night, a 29 year-old woman had gathered up her dog and headed outside to… well, to let her dog do what dogs do.

Upon her first step outside her Minot, North Dakota home, she was hit solidly in the face with a blunt object, knocking her backward down the stairs and into her home.

Her assailant followed her into her home and started to approach her, but the woman had made it to a cabinet where she retrieved a handgun to protect herself and her home.

When confronted with the firearm, the violent intruder and would-be robber/rapist/murderer fled the scene.

The smart, independent, gun-owning woman did not require medical attention, most likely due to the fact that she was able to pull a weapon on her assailant to end the attack.
Mount Vernon Man Fends Off Three Attackers With Concealed Firearm, Killing One – Concealed Nation

According to police and witness accounts, the concealed carrier was out on the street testing out a wireless signal booster when he noticed a black Chevy Cavalier slowly making its way down the block. It passed him and then stopped and let out a 22-year-old passenger armed with what appeared to be a shotgun. The armed suspect approached the concealed carrier. This is when the concealed carrier did the right thing and let the suspect know to stay away. When he didn’t comply, there was little choice left but to open fire. Because it was around 11 pm, it was not immediately apparent whether or not the bullet struck his attacker but the attacker quickly ran and got into the car.

According to Skagit Breaking News, Police were later called to the assailant’s home where he was found dead a half a mile away from where the incident occurred.

The driver and those in the vehicle were also found because of the swift work and coordination between witnesses in the area and the concealed carrier. They quickly and accurately reported information to the police which was then used to trace a list of likely suspects.

WRONG GUY: Armed Robber Killed After Targeting Concealed Carrier

An armed robber In Brooklyn Park—a northwestern suburb of Minneapolis–Saint Paul—chose the wrong person to attempt to rob Monday night, and instead of getting away with cash or jewelry, only collected lead.

Brooklyn Park Police say it appears a man who was fatally shot Monday night was attempting to rob someone who was legally carrying a gun.

Assistant Chief Mark Bruley says the preliminary investigation into the fatal shooting indicates that the man who was killed on the 7500 block of Imperial Drive targeted an individual who had a valid permit to carry a handgun as his victim. Witnesses say there was an exchange of gunfire, and the alleged robber was killed.

Information on the shooting is sketchy, but if this went down like so many recent defensive gun uses have, then the robber probably thought that he had the situation well in hand when he pulled his gun, and more than likely was stunned when the “victim” pulled a legally-concealed handgun. It’s not known from this account who fired first, but it is clear that the concealed carrier put effective rounds on target, while the bad guy didn’t.

There were witnesses to the shootout who apparently corroborate the concealed carrier’s version of events, and it does not look like the investigation will result in charges.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[/QUOTE]

Police: Concealed Permit Holder Saves Officer Surrounded By Mob - Breitbart

*On February 5, an armed citizen saved an Upper Darby police officer who was under assault and encircled by a mob of onlookers.*
Upper Darby Police Superintendent Michael Chitwood said “there is no doubt they would have attacked” the officer without the armed citizen’s intervention.

According to Philly.com, the officer was breaking up a fight between two Upper Darby High School students–after school had let out for the day–and one of the students jumped the officer. Superintendent Chitwood said, “As he breaks up the fight, he takes one kid and then the other jumps [on] him. Now he’s fighting two of them and he’s calling for an assist officer at the same time. There’s a crowd of 40 or 50 kids watching the fight, and they all move in towards the officer.”

An area resident with a concealed carry permit saw the officer struggling and the crowd closing in, so he grabbed his gun and ran to the officer’s defense. The resident ordered the kids to get away from the officer and kept them away until sufficient backup arrived. Chitwood said, “He had the gun in his hand, but he didn’t point it at the kids, he just told them to back off. If this guy didn’t come out and come to the aid of the officer, this officer would have had significant problems.”

The officer who was under attack suffered “significant hand injuries” and the first officer to respond to calls for backup “suffered a major injury to a leg when he was kicked by one of the teens in the fight.”
[/QUOTE]

Employee Stabbed At GM Warren Tech Center, Suspect In Custody

The women got into some kind of verbal dispute, Fouts said, during which the visitor pulled out a steak knife and violently stabbed the employee several times in the neck, abdomen and back.

A nearby valet driver, who also has a concealed pistol license, saw what was happening and rushed to the employee’s aid.

“He pulled the weapon out and stopped the attack from taking place,” said Fouts. “By then, this woman had been stabbed multiple times.”

The driver held the attacker on the ground at gunpoint as other GM workers called 911. Police quickly arrived on the scene and took the suspect into custody as the employee was rushed to the hospital.

She underwent surgery and was last reported in stable condition.
[/QUOTE]
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

CCW Permit Holder In CA Holds Burglar At Gunpoint With His Glock Until Police Arrive

FRESNO, CALIFORNIA — A pocket-carrying homeowner took matters into his own hands when he saw someone walking around inside his home as he was outside doing yard work.

That homeowner, who did not want to be identified, says he’s had his concealed carry permit for 50 years in California and it’s the first time he’s ever been forced to draw.

When police arrived, accompanied by helicopter with a good visual on the situation, they found the homeowner with his Glock trained on the suspect, 54-year-old Enrique Garza.

*Police hailed the homeowner’s actions, saying it was a good thing his gun wasn’t sitting inside a safe, out of reach when needed most.

“If not for having a CCW, he probably wouldn’t have his gun on him, it probably would have been locked in a safe, and he wouldn’t have had access to it in order to hold this suspect accountable,” said Fresno County Sheriff’s Office spokesman Tony Botti.*

“You have to learn to be careful in this world, because there’s a lot of crazy people out there,” said the homeowner.

The Fresno County Sheriff’s Office mentioned that before the attacks in San Bernardino, concealed carry permits were issued in about one month. Now after the attacks, demand has skyrocketed, which has created a longer wait time of up to 10 months for permits to be issued.

--------
Yes....this woman wakes up at 6.am. to be pistol whipped by 3 armed home invaders.....while her 2 children are sleeping. She manages to get to her pistol and shoots the a******s and they run. She manages to hit at least one them who apparently assumed room temperature.

Too bad she had that gun. Now that poor, violent sociopath was killed. It is really a shame when 3 gun toting, violent sociopaths can't enter a home at 6 a.m., pistol whip the woman in the home, and who knows what else they planned, and without getting shot at. Something really needs to be done....she should never have had that gun in the first place...I am sure had she not had that gun.....and other than the pistol whipping, these 3 violent sociopaths meant her no harm.....er.....other than the pistol whipping......

What kind of country do we live in when even violent sociopaths aren't safe from gun violence....?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




And more......

DGU of the Day: Trotwood Ohio Woman Defeats Three Home Invaders - The Truth About Guns

Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.

The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.

All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:

“I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”

In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.

Now....here is the thing.....the gun grabbers on U.S. will first tell us that this never happens.

Next they will tell us that the defender with a gun will never be able to actually use the gun because they aren't Navy Seals.

Next they will say, there is no way a good woman with a gun will ever win because she will be easily disarmed.

So......3 men with guns grab a woman with the element of surprise. They hit her, probably injuring her. She manages to get her gun and shoot the three of them out of her house killing one of the a******s in the process.........and I didn't see anywhere in the article where she was the first woman Navy Seal.

************************
Homeowner Stays Armed In The House — Finds Knife-Wielding Man Inside And It Turns Out Great!

WILLMAR, MINNESOTA — A Willmar homeowner returned home to find a man wielding a knife in the middle of his living room. Using his pistol, which he was licensed to carry, he held the suspect at gunpoint and called 911. During the encounter, he allowed the suspect to leave after putting his buck knife down. Police caught up to the suspect, 37-year-old by the name of Shane Fellers. He was found inside a vehicle being operated by an unknown woman. Both were taken into custody and, according to the West Central Tribune, Fellers was held on a $70,000 unconditional bail for first degree burglary and burglary with a dangerous weapon. He also allegedly supplied the police officer with an incorrect name when he was initially apprehended — tacking on an additional misdemeanor.**********************
Just saw this on the news....Predfan posted it in the firearms thread but this is about the owner of the store.....on the local news he thanked the new concealed carry law and the fact that his employee is a concealed carry permit holder.......I never thought I would see this in Chicago....

T-Mobile store employee shoots 2 armed robbery suspects near 95th, Jeffrey

The T-Mobile store in the 2000-block of East 95th St. was left riddled with bullet holes. If not for the employee carrying a weapon with a concealed carry license, the manager of the store says he might be telling a different story.

"I think concealed carry is a great opportunity for managers, workers, employees to protect themselves in these cases. And our employee did a great job to protect themselves and the other employee," said Neil Tadros, store manager.

He says two men entered the store and acted like they were shopping for phones for a few minutes, then pulled out guns.

One employee ran to the back to call for help while the other pulled out his own gun and fired at the two suspects. He hit one of them in the groin and the arm, and the other in the abdomen and the arm.

The men ran from the store with the employee chasing them, on the phone giving a description to police.

The suspects then drove to a nearby hospital where police took them into custody.

Neighbors say the cell phone store has been robbed several times in the last month. Ed Brown was working in the salon next door.


We need more of these stories and then the criminals will start breaking into stores when no one is in them...that way they won't get shot.....

--------------
Concealed Nation Fan Fends Off Three Home Invaders With M&P Shield

A father and son successfully fought off three home invaders in an early morning all-out fight for survival. Columbus police confirm that there was a home invasion in vicinity of 2:30 am where three suspected attackers kicked in the front door and immediately set to assaulting the son who was first to respond. Thankfully, his father was in the other room and able to flush out the attackers — using nothing less than his future everyday carry pistol, the M&P Shield.

“I come out and this one little one come tried to attack me and I took him out right away, one in the white shirt tried attacking me from the side, tried choking me and that kind of stuff,” says Shawn Howell, “Next thing you know he loses power and I jump up to get up and ready to start cleaning clocks *but I just darted into my room*… I come out and they were flying out the door so fast, I never seen anybody run so fast in my life… they knew what was coming,*they knew I was going for a gun*.”

According to both the victims’ testimony and police statements released through Channel 48 – Nebraska, the attackers fled before the future-concealed carrier could put bullets on target but he allegedly pursued them to their vehicle to “mark the truck”.

Both victims were transported to a nearby hospital where they were treated for superficial wounds sustained during the assault. Both the father and son were attending a concealed carry course to get their concealed carry permits and neither were expecting an attack of this magnitude to occur in their home.

---------


Burglars call 911 on themselves as homeowner holds them at gunpoint

A pair of men who were breaking into a Woodland, Washington, home Monday night got quite a scare when the owner of the house caught them redhanded.

Bill Lahti was surprised to find his home had been burglarized last week, partly because the home, which belonged to Lahti’s great-grandparents years ago and was handed down to him, isn’t exactly in an easy to get to location. The rural property has been dubbed by the Lahti family as “the hill,” and given the home’s history, Lahti was especially appalled at the break-in.

“I kept coming back periodically to check in,” Lahti told KATU. “So, Monday night, I roll up and there’s their truck backed up to the front door in the yard. (The) door was about – probably – four inches open. I could see the light through there. So, I came out there, jumped out of my truck, kicked the door open and there they were.”

Lahti told the two men to get down on their knees as he held them at gunpoint. He was going to call the police on them, but Lahti couldn’t get his phone to work. With his gun still trained on them, he instructed the crooks to make the call themselves. With few options, the suspects complied.

-----



Concealed Carrier Holds Burglar At Gunpoint With Her FNX .45

CLEVELAND, TENNESSEE — A woman successfully subdued a would-be burglar outside her home using her FNX .45. The suspect, James Jeffrey Dunn, was allegedly trying to break in through her front door late at night. She got her handgun and confronted the burglar, according to WRCB. Once at the doorway, she yelled through the door for him to stay put and not move. Moments later, she confronted him head-on — handgun drawn and ready to go.

via WRCB

“I tried to order him to stay right where he was at and I pointed the gun at him and I came running off the porch and I came within 10 feet of him and he laid the bicycle down and he crumpled on top of the bicycle,” she says.

She held him at gunpoint until Cleveland Police arrived and arrested Dunn, 35, on charges of aggravated burglary, theft, and burglary of a motor vehicle. Police note that Dunn had an arrest sheet tallying over 40 charges — the most recent being only 6 hours prior to his attempted burglary of this concealed carrier.

“We went over this when we got my concealed carry permit, these types of scenarios. But I had already put that gun up and ever taken it out since, you know?” she says. “Maybe to go the range once.”

When we talk about the new generation of concealed carriers, let’s take a good long look at the realities these people are facing: hardened, career criminals unafraid to bust through the door or do damage to private property and persons. It’s a good thing this woman had the proper training she needed and the right equipment.



---------------------------------


NRA-ILA | Armed homeowner scares off attacker, KTVA, Anchorage, Alaska 11/13/15

A homeowner was in their house in Anchorage, Alaska when they heard a knock at the door. The homeowner retrieved a gun and went to answer the door. Upon opening the door, an intruder pepper-sprayed the homeowner, prompting the homeowner to fire at the criminal. The attacker fled the scene. (KTVA, Anchorage, Alaska 11/13/15)

---------

NRA-ILA | Elderly couple fights off real monsters on Halloween, Helena-Arkansas.com, Helena, Ark. 11/01/15

An elderly couple were at home Halloween night, when the doorbell rang. Prepared to hand out candy to trick-or-treaters, the wife opened the door to find four armed robbers, at least two of whom were armed with guns.

The robbers forced their way inside the home, where the husband was sitting in a recliner. Upon learning of the home invasion, the husband retrieved a gun and fired at the criminals, prompting the home invaders to flee. (Helena-Arkansas.com, Helena, Ark. 11/01/15)


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




And more.......

CCW Witness to Fatal Stabbing Holds Red-Handed Attacker at Gunpoint [VIDEO] - The Truth About Guns

*The woman, 28-year-old Gabrielle Garcia, was with their five-year-old son at the time and had a standing no-contact order against the father. In full view of his own child as well as many witnesses, the man stabbed Garcia repeatedly, inflicting fatal injuries.*

The man, identified as 29-year-old David Lee Morris, then walked out of the Seattle Center Armory (an indoor dining area) and into the street, still holding the knife and covered in blood. There, he was met by Scott Brown, who works at Skillet restaurant in Seattle Center. It was Brown’s day off, and he was dropping by to say hi to friends.

*“I have a concealed weapons license,” said Brown. “[Morris] was just walking away calmly… I got next to him and I pulled out my gun and stepped in front of him. As soon as he saw that I had a firearm, he started trying to convince me to shoot him. He just kept trying to convince me to shoot him, and I didn’t want to shoot him.”*

Brown did not end up having to shoot Morris (although, based on the video and witness reports, he would have had ample justification).

“Both of his hands were bloody… He was just walking toward the man with the gun,” said Eric DeAngelo, a bystander who recorded a video of the full takedown (see below). “Kept walking toward him. I don’t know what his intention was.”

Morris continued walking toward Brown, asking him to kill him, while Brown kept walking backwards, keeping Morris in his sights for several long minutes.

“I just kept trying to get him to put down the knife,” Brown recalled, “and we kept walking backwards and backwards and backwards. Way too long. I kept looking around for police, security… the point was to hold his focus. There were people everywhere.”

At last, another bystander helped subdue Morris with pepper spray until police arrived and took control. In DeAngelo’s video (around 1:45), you can see Brown looking visibly relieved as he finally puts down his gun.


5/18/18

Father Attacked at McDonald's While Holding Infant Daughter, Shoots One of Four Suspects

*A father who was attacked in Memphis, Tennessee, McDonald’s while holding his infant daughter was able to get his gun and open fire, wounding one of the four attackers.*
WREG quotes police saying “four suspects attempted to rob the victim at the McDonald’s in the 1400 block of South Trezevant near Lamar and Airways.” A witness described a scene in which the suspects tried to catch the father while he was too busy to fight back.

Witness David Chase said, “They jumped out of the car and they started fighting him and trying to take his wallet and stuff.” He added, “He was fighting them. He dropped his baby and started fighting them and the child was just sitting on the concrete.”

Chase then heard gunshots rang out and the suspects fled the scene. It was later learned that the father had managed to get to his gun and fire the shots, wounding one of the suspects.

*ActionNews5 reports that the wounded suspect “showed up later at a nearby fire department” for treatment. His was taken to a hospital in “non-critical condition.”
========*

4/5/18

Armed South Carolina Woman Chases Off Daytime Home Invader - The Truth About Guns

When Ms. Reeves ran across Ralph Goss slithering around inside her home yesterday in the middle of the afternoon, she drew her firearm. Staring down that barrel was enough to change Goss’s mind about whatever it was he had planned.

“I’m one of those people that can go from zero to a hundred in 2.5 seconds and I’m not a nice person normally, but as soon as I got on the phone with the sheriff’s department he was out of sight. The severity of it hit me, and I was in hysterics. I was crying, I was scared, I was very shaken.”

Oconee County deputies tracked Goss down within hours of Ms. Reeves’ call. And surprise! He already had several outstanding warrants for his arrest.
===============

3/28/17

CWB Chicago: River North: Motorist With Concealed-Carry Saves Victim From 3-On-1 Beat-Down And Robbery

An armed suburban man with a concealed-carry license intervened in a 3-on-1 beating and robbery in River North yesterday evening, according to a witness and police.

The victim was in the 700 block of North Clark around 8:30 p.m. when three offenders wearing white surgical masks attacked him and began taking his property, police said.

A passing motorist who saw the robbery unfold pulled over, unholstered his concealed firearm and intervened in the attack. The three offenders fled westbound on Chicago Avenue as the concealed-carry holder protected the victim, according to a witness.

The driver, who lives in Mt. Prospect, returned to his vehicle and drove away after stabilizing the situation, a witness reported.

The victim lost his phone to the robbers who were described as two black men and one black woman wearing surgical masks. One of the offenders wore a red jacket and the others wore dark clothing.
==================

Not charged for self defense shooting..

Milwaukee concealed carrier who killed carjacker acted in self defense

Milwaukee authorities decided not to press charges against the 24-year-old man who shot and killed a carjacker last month, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.

Prosecutors said the man, whose name has not been released, “lawfully acted in self defense” when he killed Carlos D. Martin, 21.

Martin, armed with a gun, tried to carjack the victim who was heading into work around 6 am on Feb. 26, according to a police statement. But the victim opened fire, striking and killing Martin.

The victim, who has a valid concealed carry license, remained on scene and cooperated with police. Martin was a felon and legally barred from possessing a gun.

*“Before the summer starts, this should be a warning,” said Milwaukee police Capt. Andra Williams at a press conference last month. “This should be a wake-up call to everyone in the community that this is not a game.”*


2/24/18

Video of shooting...

‘Not Going To Be Victims’: Watch Mother-Daughter Pair Use Guns To Defend Liquor Store

======

2/20/18

Good Guy With A Gun Saves Mother And Daughter Who Were Being Attacked

Law enforcement officials in New Mexico are praising a man who stepped in to save a mother and her daughter after the woman’s estranged husband rammed her car and began shooting at them.

Albuquerque Police say that 66-year-old Qian Ming intentionally crashed into the woman’s vehicle on Sunday and then opened fire, hitting his daughter in the shoulder, KRQE News 13reported.

Officer Simon Drobik says that a 34-year-old good Samaritan, who is not being named since he has not been charged with a crime, saw the attack unfold and intervened.

“Once he started walking up, he saw that there was a male violently pistol-whipping a female in the street,” Drobik said. “He got out of his vehicle and had his firearm on him and told that male to stop.”

Upon telling Ming to stop, the good Samaritan told police that he pointed the gun in his direction and that’s when he opened fire on Ming, hitting and killing him.

“Mom in the hospital said, ‘He saved our lives’,” Drobik continued. “You can’t get a stronger statement than that. So she knew it. Daughter knows it and good thing he took that type of action.”
=============

2/19/18


Homeowner shoots at drive-by suspects, killing 2

Two people are dead and one is in the hospital after a homeowner fired back during a shooting in North Houston.

Investigators say early Saturday morning a suspect vehicle drove up to the homeowner's house on Glenburnie Drive and started shooting.

The homeowner was outside at the time and he hid behind a bush in the yard and returned fire. Officers say more than 40 shots were fired in the exchange.
============


'He was crazed,' said driver caught in deadly highway shooting in Fridley

The man who rammed into the back of Irvine Doyle’s truck repeatedly stabbed at his driver’s-side window with a six-inch blade knife, all the time yelling and ranting.

That’s when Doyle saw another man approach with a gun, pointing it down toward the ground, telling the man with the knife to calm down.

“I said, ‘Thank God somebody’s here because the cops aren’t here yet,” Doyle recalled.


In an interview Friday, Doyle filled out the picture of the chaotic scene on Hwy. 65 near Medtronic Parkway on Wednesday after Simon Schiffler, 33, of Williston, N.D., set off a chain-reaction crash at a red light.

Schiffler, the man with the knife, was beyond erratic, Doyle said.



The man with gun told Schiffler to relax, Doyle said. Instead, Schiffler charged, “his knife flailing,” Doyle said.

Three shots rang out and Schiffler dropped to the ground, bleeding, Doyle said. Schiffler was taken to Hennepin County Medical Center, where he died.

A family is likely grieving over his death, Doyle said. But he and others feared for their lives.




=================



======2/9/18

Armed Robbers Walked Into A Store — Then Cashier Pulled Out His Pistol And Showed Them The Door

he video shows the two men approach the cashier and point a rifle straight in his face. Not missing a beat, the cashier draws his own weapon and shoots at the two men. It’s unclear if he hits anyone.
The criminals flee the scene, dropping their gun as they run outside. Police then say the criminals drove away in a silver vehicle.
=========
2/3/18

Concealed Carry holder holds robbery suspect at gunpoint

A Grayson County man is behind bars after allegedly breaking into a residence in Edmonson County.

The Edmonson County Sheriff's Office says 20-year-old Robert Hunt was held at gunpoint by the homeowner until deputies arrived to the house on E.G. Nash Road.

The homeowner was a Concealed/Carry Deadly Weapons permit holder according to a sheriff's deputy that says in situations like that, it's important to alert police to ensure everyone's safety.

"Once you call police, if you're actually going to hold that suspect at gun point you need to let dispatch know. Go ahead and give a description of yourself, so we know once we get on scene who the actual conceal carry holder is and who actualy is the suspect," said Deputy Jordan Jones with the Edmonson County Sheriff's Office.
============

1/14/18


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




How many actual lives are saved annually by armed Americans?

Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns



*In the K-G article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Why is it so easy for children in America to get hold of guns?
> 
> Two juveniles killed, two others shot. What we know about the I-24 Nashville shooting
> 
> Nashville police on Wednesday continued to investigate the circumstances surrounding early Tuesday's quadruple shooting of four juveniles along Interstate 24 in downtown Nashville.
> 
> Two of the juveniles, ages 12 and 14, died.
> 
> Probably because gun controls are so lax all they need to do is break a window: 49 guns stolen from Michigan gun store, $5,000 reward offered for information




Hey....dumb shit....you didn't even read the fucking article.......

The 12 and 14 year olds?   Likely gang member, at least criminals of one kind.........they stole the pickup truck, you moron....

*Police identified the two killed as 12-year-old Abdiwahab Adan, who was **driving a stolen pickup truck** that crashed, and 14-year-old Donquez Abernathy, who was a passenger. *
*
Two other passengers —  a 14-year-old girl and a 16-year-old boy — were also shot, police said. Both were being treated at Vanderbilt University Medical Center for gunshot wounds, but it's not clear how severe their injuries were. 
*
*The 16-year-old boy is suspected of being the shooter, police said. *









						'A senseless act': Nashville police ID I-24 shooting victims who were 12 and 14 years old
					

A shooting inside a pickup truck on I-24 left a 12-year-old and a 14-year-old dead, police said. The 12-year-old was at the wheel.



					www.tennessean.com


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you can't stop rape, robbery and murder with nice thoughts...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True. But guns don’t necessarily stop, robbery, rape, or murder.
Click to expand...



Again, it is a lot easier for a 120 pound woman to stop a violent sexual assault by one or more larger, stronger males, when she has a gun, than by using nice thoughts...you doofus.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This fact, according to you, should have increased the gun crime rate in the United States as the rest of the world experienced crime rates going down....since, again, your argument is more guns will increase gun crime and regular crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You appear to live in a fantasy bubble where everyone you disagree with is an “anti-gun extremist”. I’ve never put forth this argument, yet you keep accusing me of doing so. I merely disprove your argument time after time that private ownership of guns reduces crime and your idolised “gun gurus” have feet of clay.
> 
> Just because you seem unable to grasp my position I’ll say again, I like guns, I used to own three handguns when it was legal to do so in the UK and spent a lot of my spare time on the shooting range. In that respect, I’m possibly your worst nightmare, someone who’s not afraid of guns but sees the value in gun registration, licensing after strict background/medical/psychological checks and extensive compulsory training in handling and safe storing of firearms. In other words, responsible gun ownership.
> 
> I do not see the value of letting every Tom, Dick or Harry carry guns around without any restrictions; the situation you have in the USA. I do not subscribe to the myth that, “the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”
Click to expand...



You don't see registration, or licensing because you are too stupid to understand that they do nothing to stop criminals, and simply make it easier for the government to ban and confiscate guns....as your countries experience shows....first you registered and licensed guns, you doofus, then you banned and confiscated them....

and your training requirements are simply another way to keep normal people from being able to afford the time and cost to own and carry guns....as your country also shows......so that only the rich and politically connected can either jump through the hoops or ignore them entirely...while the poor and middle class are left helpless in the face of violent criminals and rogue governments....

You are such a dumb ass....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gun was illegal…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. If the gun was bought legally, it remains a legally acquired firearm. The use it was put to was illegal, i.e. obtained by a 15-year-old boy and used to shoot at people with intent to kill.
Click to expand...



If the 15 year old has it and carries it, it was an illegal gun, you moron......15 year olds can't buy, own or carry guns in the U.S........


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in America…
> 
> Baby of pregnant Florida woman accidentally shot by husband dies
> 
> “The Martin County Sheriff's Office said a man said he mistook his pregnant wife for an intruder and shot her in the head, killing her.”
> 
> then there's this:
> 
> "As parents rushed to pick up their kids hours after a shooting at Hendersonville Middle School, two sisters described what they say was a frightening scene inside the gym.
> 
> That’s where police say a firearm was discharged by a 12-year-old boy, striking a 12-year-old girl in the leg."
> 
> 13-year-old accused of shooting classmate faces felony charge
> 
> Gosh, wonder where a 12 year old boy got the gun?
> 
> And more. Suspect in shooting death of 7-year-old Detroit girl arrested in Dallas
> 
> “Police said a vehicle drove by a home on the 3900 block of Bedford at about 8:20 p.m. on Oct. 28 and opened fire on the house. Reginae had been sleeping on a couch when she was struck in the head by shots fired through the living room window, police said. She died Oct. 30.
> 
> "It's sad when you can't go to sleep because you don't know if you'll wake up again," said her mother, Etosha Williams, days after the shooting. "It's sad that as parents, you put your child to sleep, and lay them on the couch, and you're thinking all is well — but yet a coward decides they have nothing better to do than shoot rounds into a house that had two parents and nine children in there."




Yeah.....the woman shot?  Likely a murder by her husband.........the police were still investigating the shooting at the time of the article...you doofus....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> All of the studies I linked to were outside of Dr. Lott's influence, done by independent researchers…



Blah, blah. Every one of these “studies” was based on subjective data from small sample surveys and extrapolations made based on whichever statistical model the researcher chose to use. You have provided no hard objective data to support your assertions, only estimates. 

By your standard if you looked at Oreo cookie sales over the same period, assuming they showed a consistant increase, you could claim that Oreo cookies were responsible for the reduction in crime.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.



No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.

“And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You are wrong....what you believe is not based in truth, facts or reality.......and each time you bring up points, in the end, they support my position and defeat yours.



Well, when you make up arguments I’ve not made then “disprove” them with your fantasies and provide no objective facts, sounds to me like a classic Straw Man fallacy. Enough said.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> 1.1 million times a year, Americans use their legal guns to save lives......according to the Centers for Disease control



No NOT according to the CDC, they’ve never made such a claim, that’s just your gun guru Kleck extrapolating again.[/quote]


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the studies I linked to were outside of Dr. Lott's influence, done by independent researchers…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blah, blah. Every one of these “studies” was based on subjective data from small sample surveys and extrapolations made based on whichever statistical model the researcher chose to use. You have provided no hard objective data to support your assertions, only estimates.
> 
> By your standard if you looked at Oreo cookie sales over the same period, assuming they showed a consistant increase, you could claim that Oreo cookies were responsible for the reduction in crime.
Click to expand...



Wow....you are still dumb.

You said crime rates fell around the world, even in the U.S.

I showed you that while crime rates fell around the world, including in the U.S., more and more Americans went out, bought guns and now over 19.4 million of them carry those guns for self defense......

That variable in the equation of falling crime rates, according to you, should have kept the U.S. from experiencing reduced crime rates...since you believe more guns = more gun crime.

Since gun crime fell 75%, violent crime fell 72%, and gun murder fell 49% in the United States.......that means that guns in the hands of law abiding people do not increase the crime rate or the gun crime rate....

Showing your theory is wrong.

Your oreo concept fails.....since there have been no studies done on oreos and crime while there has been extensive research into concealed carry rates and small reductions in crime.   

At the same time.....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders...according to the Centers for Disease Control Research........backed up by the Department of Justice Research that found the rate at 1.5 million times a year, backed up by another 15 studies on how often Ameiricans use guns to fight and stop crime.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> If you want to post stories....I can post stories...



How childish. Dear boy, that’s all you ever do, post stories to scare people into buying guns.

It’s your whole reason for posting in the Europe forum, to try to con gullible Americans into believing that gun control doesn’t work.

You even repeat the same stories from 2017 and earlier, again and again and again and again. 

It’s just like the quote often attributed to Goebbles, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” Of course, the other reason you resort to pages of cut and paste is to flood the thread with BS so the average reader can’t follow the argument and see you getting trounced. Trump’s best buddy Vlad, uses this tactic a lot, so do Conservatives in both the US and the UK. The modern version is called “The Firehose of Falsehood” Russia's “Firehose of Falsehood” Propaganda Model
Distinctive Features of the Contemporary Model for Russian Propaganda:

High-volume and multichannel
Rapid, continuous, and repetitive
*Lacks commitment to objective reality*
*Lacks commitment to consistency*.
3-4 describe you to a T.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> That variable in the equation of falling crime rates, according to you, should have kept the U.S. from experiencing reduced crime rates...since you believe more guns = more gun crime.



And again, I've never stated that more guns = more gun crime. Proves my point again thanks.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.
> 
> “And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)
Click to expand...



I listed several studies that showed that increases in concealed carry help to lower the crime rate.....you are lying....again.   You lie because the facts, truth and reality do not support your beliefs....

And again...


The world experienced a decrease in crime rates, including the U.S.

At the time of these declining crime rates more and more Americans owned and  also actually carried guns in public for self defense.....

The violent crime rate in the U.S. fell 72%, the gun crime rate fell 75%, the gun murder rate fell 49%....

That shows that the variable in the falling crime rates, gun ownership, did not stop the falling crime rates in the U.S..........and the crime rates in the U.S. fell more than the rest of the world....crime rates in Europe fell 46%.......violent crime in the U.S. fell 72%.

This shows that you are wrong....and no matter how many ways you try to deny it, your own point about falling crime rates around the world shows you are wrong.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to post stories....I can post stories...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How childish. Dear boy, that’s all you ever do, post stories to scare people into buying guns.
> 
> It’s your whole reason for posting in the Europe forum, to try to con gullible Americans into believing that gun control doesn’t work.
> 
> You even repeat the same stories from 2017 and earlier, again and again and again and again.
> 
> It’s just like the quote often attributed to Goebbles, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” Of course, the other reason you resort to pages of cut and paste is to flood the thread with BS so the average reader can’t follow the argument and see you getting trounced. Trump’s best buddy Vlad, uses this tactic a lot, so do Conservatives in both the US and the UK. The modern version is called “The Firehose of Falsehood” Russia's “Firehose of Falsehood” Propaganda Model
> Distinctive Features of the Contemporary Model for Russian Propaganda:
> 
> High-volume and multichannel
> Rapid, continuous, and repetitive
> *Lacks commitment to objective reality*
> *Lacks commitment to consistency*.
> 3-4 describe you to a T.
Click to expand...



I post facts, and research, you post feelings and emotions. 

Now, since you can't touch the facts, the truth and reality.......you try the "you are posting propaganda," crap.

You are weak, lame and have nothing on your side to support what you believe.


----------



## Vagabond63

Here’s a problem we don’t have in the UK compared to America, an interesting article from your favourite source, Mother Jones Gun violence costs America $229 billion a year—more than $700 for every man, woman, and child an article from 2015, granted, but arguably more relevant today.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.
> 
> “And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)
Click to expand...



Yes...actually, you did.  I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....

1)  I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.

2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.

You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> I post facts, and research, you post feelings and emotions.
> 
> Now, since you can't touch the facts, the truth and reality.......you try the "you are posting propaganda," crap.
> 
> You are weak, lame and have nothing on your side to support what you believe.



More projection.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.
> 
> “And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...actually, you did.  I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....
> 
> 1)  I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.
> 
> 2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.
> 
> You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.
Click to expand...

Seems reading and comprehension are not your strong points.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Here’s a problem we don’t have in the UK compared to America, an interesting article from your favourite source, Mother Jones Gun violence costs America $229 billion a year—more than $700 for every man, woman, and child an article from 2015, granted, but arguably more relevant today.




Yes....criminals cause a lot of pain and suffering to their victims......our problem isn't that Americans own and carry guns......our problem is that the democrat party in this country keeps releasing violent criminals from custody.....over and over again, and especially in the cities that they completely control.

Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop these criminals, according to the Centers for Disease Control, and 1.5 million times a year if you prefer the Department of Justice Research...there are also another 15 or so studies that show high levels of gun self defense....I have listed those studies before and I can do it again.....

As to the cost.....you don't look at the savings when Americans stop rape, robberies and murders with their legal guns....

But we have....

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


that makes for _at least_ 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.





==============
Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
--------

It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what _are_ the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .

In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
--------------

How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.

According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.

So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

*Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.*

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

*When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”*

*Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”*

*So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.
> 
> “And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...actually, you did.  I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....
> 
> 1)  I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.
> 
> 2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.
> 
> You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems reading and comprehension are not your strong points.
Click to expand...



Facts, truth and reality are not your strong points.........


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.
> 
> “And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...actually, you did.  I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....
> 
> 1)  I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.
> 
> 2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.
> 
> You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems reading and comprehension are not your strong points.
Click to expand...



Just so you don't forget.......the questions you still refuse to answer....

Which is better for you........a woman is raped, tortured and murdered....or she uses her legal gun to stop the attack?

If a woman uses a gun to stop a rape, murder or robbery, if you had the ability to go back in time...would you take that gun away from her before she used it to stop the attack?

You refuse to answer the questions....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I post facts, and research, you post feelings and emotions.
> 
> Now, since you can't touch the facts, the truth and reality.......you try the "you are posting propaganda," crap.
> 
> You are weak, lame and have nothing on your side to support what you believe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More projection.
Click to expand...



Since you love research so much....

I just averaged the studies at the bottom......I took only studies that exluded military and police gun use.....notice, theses studies which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I post facts, and research, you post feelings and emotions.
> 
> Now, since you can't touch the facts, the truth and reality.......you try the "you are posting propaganda," crap.
> 
> You are weak, lame and have nothing on your side to support what you believe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More projection.
Click to expand...



Let me help you with the questions....since you refuse to answer them....

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape



> A woman using a gun is less likely to be raped and more likely to not be injured during the attack....
> 
> Guns Effective Defense Against Rape
> 
> 
> However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.
> 
> I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.
> 
> *First,* a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.
> 
> *Second,* raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).
> 
> *Third,* a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.
> 
> *Fourth,* we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."
> 
> The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Here’s a problem we don’t have in the UK compared to America, an interesting article from your favourite source, Mother Jones Gun violence costs America $229 billion a year—more than $700 for every man, woman, and child an article from 2015, granted, but arguably more relevant today.




And 27 years of experience in the U.S......as global crime rates went down around the world.......here in the U.S. as more people own and carry guns, our violent crime rates fell more....

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


----------



## 2aguy

Yeah...this isn't England....but it is still and Island 









						Man shot through front door of his home in Northern Ireland
					

Incident took place at around 10.30pm on Tuesday




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You stated that crime rates around the world, including the U.S. were all going down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn’t. I even copied the original post in case you miss read it. Here I’ll post it again until it finally penetrates your consciousness.
> 
> “And again we have a fine example of the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. No social survey or academic research has ever mentioned gun ownership as a factor in the decline in gun murder rates or crime rates. This is further illustrated that the same rates declined throughout the *Western world *over the same period in countries with gun control laws. “ Post #493 (my emphasis)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...actually, you did.  I posted that the crime rates in the U.S. went down as more AMerican own and carry guns, you then went on to say that that didn't prove that gun ownership caused the drop, since crime rates were falling around the world....
> 
> 1)  I did not use the fact that as crime rates fell gun ownership was increasing in the U.S. to say that gun ownership lowered the crime rate.....that is a separate argument.......I point out that as gun murder fell 40%, gun crime fell 75%, and violent crime fell 72%, this showed that gun ownership does not increase the crime rates ........and this is demonstrated over 27 years of actual experience in this country.
> 
> 2)I make a separate case that concealed carry helps to lower the crime rate and I listed studies that showed this result.
> 
> You deny all of it, then deny making the claims you made........you are weak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems reading and comprehension are not your strong points.
Click to expand...



Some more information on the shooting that left a 32 year old woman shot ........caught in the crossfire between two rival gangs...........in Britain....

Tell us, oh genius......if these criminals have guns, illegal guns since they can't own them as British citizens and can't have them since they are criminals....

Which British gun control law kept these guys from walking into a mall, a school, a theater and shooting random people?  Please, explain....

*This is the moment a crowd of people rushed into a shop in panic to flee a shooting between rival gangs which left an innocent woman fighting for her life.*

*Security cameras show terror-stricken passers-by running into Sultan Food and Wine in Hackney, East London, to escape three shots fired by a gunman just yards away.*

A 32-year-old woman is in a critical condition in hospital after being shot just below her neck on Sunday evening.









						Dramatic moment terrified crowd rushes into a shop to flee gunshots
					

Security cameras show terror-stricken passers-by running into Sultan Food and Wine in Hackney, East London, to escape three shots fired by a gunman just yards away.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Since you love research so much...



Actual research based on objective facts, certainly. 

However the drivel you keep regurgitating time after time after time after time is hardly research, I believe it’s generally called “junk science.” Every one of those figures you quote is based on subjective opinions from surveys carried out decades ago and used by the “gun guru” Gary Gleck and co. Even the data itself admits these are ESTIMATES and IMPLIED numbers. There is no objective factual data in any of these “studies”.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Let me help you with the questions....since you refuse to answer them.... Guns Effective Defense Against Rape



Oh god grief! Yet more regurgitated BS from your firehose of falsehood. An article by Robert J. Wooley, who was fired from his job, for *sexual assault!* Still, I suppose that makes him an “expert” on the subject.

From your article, “The available scientific literature on this question is divided, with some studies concluding physical resistance — with all types considered together — increases a woman's chance of the rape being completed and/or that she will be seriously injured. (This wording is unavoidable but is not meant to imply that the rape itself is not a grave injury.) Others find the opposite, again with all forms of physical resistance analyzed as one.”

Even then, your article states that the overwhelming majority of cases, the victim was intoxicated by alcohol or drugs, this would make having a gun, useless.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> As to the cost.....you don't look at the savings when Americans stop rape, robberies and murders with their legal guns... But we have....



Oh, so you admit you work for “The truth about Guns”, I always suspected you were a shill for some gun nut group. 

As to your article, it takes made up numbers based on opinion polls, multiplies them by 100, adds a monetary value and voilà actual facts are suddenly disproved! 

Yeah, right, only in your dream world.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> Facts, truth and reality are not your strong points.........



Projecting again, I see. No surprise there.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:
			
		

> You refuse to answer the questions....



Nope, answered them twice now. Remember, you’re supposed to hold your breath if you want a different answer.


----------



## Vagabond63

Meanwhile in an America awash with easily obtained guns, (roughly two for every man, woman and child in the country), this goes on, on a daily basis.

Two killed in double shooting near Jeffersontown

Two people killed yesterday in Louisville, Kentucky. No sign of any good guy with a gun.

https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/counties/fayette-county/article247495910.html

On Sunday, “Witnesses told investigators that the man driving the vehicle that crashed got out with a handgun and ran inside a nearby Speedway gas station before running out into the middle of the intersection and firing multiple shots, Truex said.”

Meanwhile in Baltimore… Four Shot In Early Morning Shootings, One In Critical Condition

…and no good guys with guns again.

Sunday seems to be a busy day for shootings in America.

UPDATE: BCA investigating officer involved shooting in Albert Lea

I could go on and on and on, but then I'd be channelling 2guy.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you love research so much...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actual research based on objective facts, certainly.
> 
> However the drivel you keep regurgitating time after time after time after time is hardly research, I believe it’s generally called “junk science.” Every one of those figures you quote is based on subjective opinions from surveys carried out decades ago and used by the “gun guru” Gary Gleck and co. Even the data itself admits these are ESTIMATES and IMPLIED numbers. There is no objective factual data in any of these “studies”.
Click to expand...



Again......research done by the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice....you twit.  Using actual research methods.  And those are only two out of about 17 studies on the subject.........

And you can bet that the researchers at the CDC and DOJ were anti-gun researchers as were Lott and Kleck when they did their research....

I just averaged the studies at the bottom......I took only studies that exluded military and police gun use.....notice, theses studies which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me help you with the questions....since you refuse to answer them.... Guns Effective Defense Against Rape
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god grief! Yet more regurgitated BS from your firehose of falsehood. An article by Robert J. Wooley, who was fired from his job, for *sexual assault!* Still, I suppose that makes him an “expert” on the subject.
> 
> From your article, “The available scientific literature on this question is divided, with some studies concluding physical resistance — with all types considered together — increases a woman's chance of the rape being completed and/or that she will be seriously injured. (This wording is unavoidable but is not meant to imply that the rape itself is not a grave injury.) Others find the opposite, again with all forms of physical resistance analyzed as one.”
> 
> Even then, your article states that the overwhelming majority of cases, the victim was intoxicated by alcohol or drugs, this would make having a gun, useless.
Click to expand...



Moron....for the cases where the woman was attacked when she wasn't drunk or on drugs....guns save her from the rape.....and is the most effective method to do so......over any other option......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As to the cost.....you don't look at the savings when Americans stop rape, robberies and murders with their legal guns... But we have....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you admit you work for “The truth about Guns”, I always suspected you were a shill for some gun nut group.
> 
> As to your article, it takes made up numbers based on opinion polls, multiplies them by 100, adds a monetary value and voilà actual facts are suddenly disproved!
> 
> Yeah, right, only in your dream world.
Click to expand...



Wow...you really are stupid.......I don't work for any group....you twit.

Any facts or statistics that show you are wrong you simply dismiss.....must be nice for your side, never having to prove your case......you twit.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in an America awash with easily obtained guns, (roughly two for every man, woman and child in the country), this goes on, on a daily basis.
> 
> Two killed in double shooting near Jeffersontown
> 
> Two people killed yesterday in Louisville, Kentucky. No sign of any good guy with a gun.
> 
> https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/counties/fayette-county/article247495910.html
> 
> On Sunday, “Witnesses told investigators that the man driving the vehicle that crashed got out with a handgun and ran inside a nearby Speedway gas station before running out into the middle of the intersection and firing multiple shots, Truex said.”
> 
> Meanwhile in Baltimore… Four Shot In Early Morning Shootings, One In Critical Condition
> 
> …and no good guys with guns again.
> 
> Sunday seems to be a busy day for shootings in America.
> 
> UPDATE: BCA investigating officer involved shooting in Albert Lea
> 
> I could go on and on and on, but then I'd be channelling 2guy.




And again...

1.1 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop rapes, robberies and murders........from the CDC....

1.5 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to stop rapes, robberies and murders......from the Department of Justice.....

I just averaged the studies at the bottom......I took only studies that exluded military and police gun use.....notice, theses studies which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in an America awash with easily obtained guns, (roughly two for every man, woman and child in the country), this goes on, on a daily basis.
> 
> Two killed in double shooting near Jeffersontown
> 
> Two people killed yesterday in Louisville, Kentucky. No sign of any good guy with a gun.
> 
> https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/counties/fayette-county/article247495910.html
> 
> On Sunday, “Witnesses told investigators that the man driving the vehicle that crashed got out with a handgun and ran inside a nearby Speedway gas station before running out into the middle of the intersection and firing multiple shots, Truex said.”
> 
> Meanwhile in Baltimore… Four Shot In Early Morning Shootings, One In Critical Condition
> 
> …and no good guys with guns again.
> 
> Sunday seems to be a busy day for shootings in America.
> 
> UPDATE: BCA investigating officer involved shooting in Albert Lea
> 
> I could go on and on and on, but then I'd be channelling 2guy.




Hey....doofus.......there are 330 million people in the United States in  a land mass the size of Europe.....

only 19.4 million Americans, plus.......have the ability to legally carry their guns in public.....and even then...if they aren't the actual victim, there is no reason for them to intervene....you doofus........that is what police are for.......


----------



## 2aguy

An update to the list of research on carry laws lowering the crime rate....

*Original Post November 2, 2014:* A 2012 survey of the literature is available here.  Some of the peer-reviewed research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.  For those interested in seeing our debate with _Scientific American_ over whether some of the studies listed below should be included in our list, please see the discussion available here. This list includes papers involve US data (whether broken down at the city, county or state level), which is preferable over arbitrarily picking some small portion of the country.

*UPDATED List:*



> _Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns, John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies, 1997_


_https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Lott-Mustard-JLS.pdf_


> _The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998_ (Copy available here)





> The Concealed‐Handgun Debate, John R. Lott, Jr., Journal of Legal Studies, January 1998





> _Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by Stephen Bronars and John R. Lott, Jr., American Economic Review, May 1998_


https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Bronars_Lott_AER_1998.pdf


> _The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths by David Mustard, published in the Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_


https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mustard-JLE-Polic-Deaths-Gun-Control.pdf


> _Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_


https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Benson-Mast-JLE.pdf


> _Does the Right to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say By FLORENZ PLASSMANN AND T. NICOLAUS TIDEMAN,  Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_


http://johnrlott.tripod.com/tideman.pdf


> _Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness By CARLISLE E. MOODY,  Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_


https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Moody_JLE.pdf


> _Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ,  Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001_


http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Maltz.pdf


> _Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime By JOHN R. LOTT, JR., AND JOHN E. WHITLEY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001 — see Table 3 on page 679_


http://johnrlott.tripod.com/whitney.pdf


> _Confirming More Guns, Less Crime by Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, published in the Stanford Law Review, 2003_


http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Plassmann_Whitley.pdf


> _Measurement Error in County-Level UCR Data_ by John R. Lott, Jr. and John Whitley, published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, June 2003, Volume 19, Issue 2, pp 185-198


http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=320102


> _Using Placebo Laws to Test “More Guns, Less Crime” by Eric Helland and Alexander Tabarrok, published in Advances in Economic Analysis and Policy, 4 (1): Article 1, 2004_


https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Helland-Tabarrok-Placebo-Laws.pdf


> Abortion and Crime: Unwanted children and out-of-wedlock births, John R. Lott, Jr and John Whitley, October 2006.– page 14, Table 2.





> _The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession By Thomas B. Marvell,  Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001 — page 707, fn. 29_


http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Marvell.pdf


> _Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement By John R. Lott, Jr. and William Landes, published in The Bias Against Guns_


http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=161637


> _More Readers of Gun Magazines, But Not More Crimes by Florenz Plassmann and John R. Lott, Jr. — many places in the text._


http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=320107


> “More Guns, Less Crime” by John R Lott, Jr. (University of Chicago Press, 2010, 3rd edition).


http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1EVK7W2Y6MDD1DBWR57G


> _“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody, Thomas B. Marvell, Paul R Zimmerman, and Fasil Alemante published in Review of Economics & Finance, 2014_


https://crimeresearch.org/wp-conten...An-Exercise-in-Replication.proof_.revised.pdf


> _“An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates” by Mark Giusa published in Applied Economics Letters, Volume 21, Issue 4, 2014_


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13504851.2013.854294#.UsruMfvF2uP


> _“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here.._





> _“The Debate on Shall Issue Laws, Continued” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 6, Number 2 May 2009 _


http://econjwatch.org/articles/the-debate-on-shall-issue-laws-continued


> _“Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang” by Carlisle e. Moody, John R Lott, Jr, and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 10, Number 1, January 2013_


http://econjwatch.org/articles/did-...-to-the-nrc-a-note-on-aneja-donohue-and-zhang


> “On the Choice of Control Variables in the Crime Equation” by Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Oxford Bulletin of Economics and Statistics, Volume 72, Issue 5, pages 696–715, October 2010.


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0084.2010.00602.x/abstract


> “The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws: A Critique of the 2014 Version of Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang,”  Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Econ Journal Watch, January 2018: 51-66.


https://search.proquest.com/openvie...dd6f396754f/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=696386


> “Do Right to Carry Laws Increase Violent Crime? A Comment on Donohue, Aneja, and Weber,” Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Econ Journal Watch, Volume 16, Number 1, March 2019: 84-96.


https://econjwatch.org/File+download/1104/MoodyMarvellMar2019.pdf?mimetype=pdf


> _More Guns, Less Crime: A Response to Ayres and Donohue’s 1999 book review in the American Law and Economics Review by John R. Lott, Jr._
> _Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime Revisited: Clustering, Measurement Error, and State-by-State Break downs by John R. Lott, Jr._


A detailed discussion of the National Research Council report is *available here*. We have reservations for many research papers on both sides of this debate, so inclusion here doesn’t mean that we think that the estimates were done correctly, but to give you information on the number of peer-reviewed academic papers t


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in an America awash with easily obtained guns, (roughly two for every man, woman and child in the country), this goes on, on a daily basis.
> 
> Two killed in double shooting near Jeffersontown
> 
> Two people killed yesterday in Louisville, Kentucky. No sign of any good guy with a gun.
> 
> https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/counties/fayette-county/article247495910.html
> 
> On Sunday, “Witnesses told investigators that the man driving the vehicle that crashed got out with a handgun and ran inside a nearby Speedway gas station before running out into the middle of the intersection and firing multiple shots, Truex said.”
> 
> Meanwhile in Baltimore… Four Shot In Early Morning Shootings, One In Critical Condition
> 
> …and no good guys with guns again.
> 
> Sunday seems to be a busy day for shootings in America.
> 
> UPDATE: BCA investigating officer involved shooting in Albert Lea
> 
> I could go on and on and on, but then I'd be channelling 2guy.




And another thing, you ignorant twit.........

Even when people have their legal guns with them, there is no reason in most of your examples for someone to use that gun to intervene.........legally they risk prosecution even if they are in the right.......as the two two people in Missouri who kept blm morons off of their property are experiencing right now........

And another thing, you doofus........95% of our gun crime is a direct result of the policies of the democrat party here in the U.S.....in the cities they completely control, top to bottom, they release violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again....it is these individuals who do the majority of all gun crime...not normal gun owners...

That you can't understand that shows you have no capacity for understanding the actual issues involved....but you sure can emote, and prattle on....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile in an America awash with easily obtained guns, (roughly two for every man, woman and child in the country), this goes on, on a daily basis.
> 
> Two killed in double shooting near Jeffersontown
> 
> Two people killed yesterday in Louisville, Kentucky. No sign of any good guy with a gun.
> 
> https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/counties/fayette-county/article247495910.html
> 
> On Sunday, “Witnesses told investigators that the man driving the vehicle that crashed got out with a handgun and ran inside a nearby Speedway gas station before running out into the middle of the intersection and firing multiple shots, Truex said.”
> 
> Meanwhile in Baltimore… Four Shot In Early Morning Shootings, One In Critical Condition
> 
> …and no good guys with guns again.
> 
> Sunday seems to be a busy day for shootings in America.
> 
> UPDATE: BCA investigating officer involved shooting in Albert Lea
> 
> I could go on and on and on, but then I'd be channelling 2guy.




This is a good one...

*Confirming ìMore Guns, Less Crimeî 

Florenz Plassmann*& John Whitley** *

Analyzing county-level data for the entire United States from 1977 to 2000, we find annual reductions in murder rates between 1.5% and 2.3% for each additional year that a right-to-carry law is in effect. For the first five years that such a law is in effect, the total benefit from reduced crimes usually ranges between approximately $2 billion and $3 billion per year. 

Ayres and Donohue have simply misread their own results. Their own most general specification that breaks down the impact of the law on a year-byyear basis shows large crime-reducing benefits. Virtually none of their claims that their county-level hybrid model implies initial significant increases in crime are correct. Overall, the vast majority of their estimatesóbased on data up to 1997óactually demonstrate that right-to-carry laws produce substantial crime-reducing benefits. We show that their models also do an extremely poor job of predicting the changes in crime rates after 1997.



			http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Plassmann_Whitley.pdf


----------



## 2aguy

When good people have guns and have a need, they stop violent criminals...even mass public shooters...

*Dallas, Texas, July 25, 2020, Fox 4 News (Dallas)*



> Dallas police said three men were shot and a woman was hit by shrapnel when someone opened fire outside a sports bar in North Oak Cliff Saturday night.
> The shooter was reportedly among three men who were turned away from Harris House of Heroes II sports bar, just before midnight, because the establishment was at full capacity. . . .
> Police said the shooter went to the back of the sports bar, where he was *“confronted by armed partrons,”* and they exchanged gunfire.
> The *shooter fled before police arrived*, and remains at-large.
> *David Sentendrey, “4 injured in shooting at Dallas sports bar after men not allowed in due to COVID-19 restrictions,” Fox 4 News (Dallas), July 26, 2020.*


*Brownsburg, Indiana, July 16, 2020, WISHTV (Indianapolis, Indiana)*

Fortunately, one of the people wounded in this shooting had a permitted concealed handgun and was able to then get out of his car and shoot the attacker. Indiana has *18.5% of the adult population* with concealed handgun permits.



> 22-year-old Joshua Christopher Hayes launched an unprovoked attack against two men working in Brownsburg Cemetery Tuesday around 1:15 p.m. Hayes first chased 36-year-old Seth Robertson to a nearby intersection before he fatally shot Robertson.
> 
> Hayes then chased after the second man and shot a third man who was stopped at a traffic light nearby. The third man was legally armed and fatally shot Hayes.
> *“This tragic event could have been much more disastrous. So, victim three not only saved victim two’s life, but he saved potentially the lives of many others,” BPD Capt. Jennifer Barrett. “Victim three did exactly what anybody would have wanted him to do at that scene that day.”*
> Travis Robinson, “Mental health issues contributed to fatal Brownsburg shooting,” WISHTV (Indianapolis), July 16, 2020.


*Kwethluk, Alaska, May 16, 2020, multiple sources*.

This attack appears to have been a well-planned mass public shooting where the attacker had brought multiple guns and a bullet-resistant vest and helmet. The fact that the attacker was charged with four counts of attempted murder shows what might have happened if the armed civilian who stopped the attack hadn’t been present.



> According to state troopers, a 19-year-old man, Brian Nicolai, broke into the village public safety building dressed for combat. He staged rifles inside, and activated the fire alert system. When village police officers responded, the officers say that Nicolai shot at them. But no one was hurt, largely thanks to an armed resident who got Nicolai to give up his weapon and lie on the ground. . . .
> Kwethluk’s Public Safety Administrative Chief, Nicolai Joseph, said that* a potential mass shooting was avoided* on May 16. According to state troopers, Brian Nicolai was wearing a bullet-proof vest and helmet when he activated the village fire alert system. Village Police Officer Tiger Lee was the first to respond to the fire alarm. When he arrived, he said that Nicolai pointed a rifle at him and pulled the trigger. . . .
> That resident was Casey Thompson, according to the trooper’s report. Thompson, armed with a rifle, was able to get the shooter to drop his weapon, the report said. Thompson declined to talk with KYUK about the incident.
> Lee said that he’s glad Thompson had a gun . . . .
> *Greg Kim, “After armed resident thwarts shooting, Kwethluk VPOs consider carrying guns,” KYUK, May 22, 2020.*





> Brian Nicolai, of Kwethluk, is charged with four counts of attempted first-degree murder, third-degree assault, first-degree burglary, third-degree criminal mischief and first-degree criminal trespass. He was arraigned Saturday in Bethel court. . . .
> A Kwethluk resident who saw what was happening left the scene, returned with a rifle and talked Nicolai into lowering his weapon. Nicolai lay down on the floor and was quickly subdued by village police officers.
> Bethel-based troopers in Kwethluk responded to a report of an active shooter inside the public safety building at 5:18 p.m . . .
> *Dorothy Chomicz, “Man in Southwest Alaska charged with shooting at police officer,” Fairbanks Daily News, May 18, 2020.*


*Tulsa, Oklahoma, March 27, 2020, Channel 6*

A woman named Ashley Porter started firing at a group of people who were standing in a parking lot outside a marijuana dispensary in Tulsa, Oklahoma.



> Detectives say Porter got into an argument with someone near a convenience store over a parking spot.
> They say surveillance video from the marijuana dispensary next door shows the argument, then Porter leaving in her car.
> They say the video shows Porter coming back minutes later and firing shots toward the crowd of people in front of the store.
> Detectives say an armed citizen pulled out a gun and fired back, killing porter. . . .
> Detectives say the armed citizen was questioned and released. . . .
> *Reagan Ledbetter, “Family Devastated After Woman Killed In Tulsa,” NewsOn6, March 30th 2020.*


Additional stories are *available here* and *here*.

*Near Fort Worth, Texas, December 29, 2019.*


_Note: The above video puts up some options in the top left hand corner that block seeing one of the parishioners who shot the murderer._

Three people, including the shooter, were shot in attack just before 10 a.m. at the West Freeway Church of Christ at 1900 south Las Vegas Trail in White Settlement, which is near Fort Worth. The attacker died at the scene after being shot by two of the parishioners. Four other parishioners also drew their permitted concealed handguns.



> The Tarrant county sheriff at press conference after the shooting: “Good people stepped up and stopped it before it got worse.”
> “The citizens who were inside that church undoubtedly saved 242 other parishioners, and that might get swept aside,” Texas DPS Director Jeoff Williams said. “It was miraculous. The true heroes in all this are the people who were sitting in those pews today and responded, the immediate responders … it was truly heroic.”


*Duncan, Oklahoma, November 18, 2019*

There was a shooting at a Walmart parking lot in Duncan, Oklahoma that left two people murdered.

From USA Today (though it is buried in the story): “Aaron Helton, an Army veteran, said he was at the Walmart around 9:45 a.m. when he heard nine shots and saw the gunman, weapon in hand. According to Helton, another man walked up, put a pistol to the gunman’s head and told him to stop shooting. Helton said he saw the shooter was turning the gun on himself and looked away.”

From CNN, after killing two people in the parking lot, “*the shooter shot himself after a bystander confronted him with a firearm.*“

From KSWO ABC Channel 7 in Oklahoma: “Multiple witnesses have said the gunman shot two people in a vehicle and a civilian with a gun confronted him, causing the gunman to turn the gun on himself. We are working to confirm that story with Duncan police.“

*Newnan, Georgia, August 13, 2019*

This is an amazing story that was caught on video. An employee who wasn’t even scheduled to work that day, but was simply hanging around the bar outside in the parking lot, stopped an attack that the police say would have likely resulted in multiple deaths. Note in the cover picture for this video that the bar has multiple gun free zone signs. From Fox 5 in Atlanta:



> Deputies in Coweta County say an armed off-duty employee may have stopped a mass shooting at a crowded bar in Newnan Saturday morning.
> FOX 5 News has the exclusive surveillance video of the shooting outside Fat Boys Bar and Grill on Highway 16. Deputies say that video shows Kevintez Mathewis on his way into the bar with a handgun when Ben McCoy confronts him and is shot multiple times. He drew the gunman’s attention and then drew his fire. . . .


From Channel 11 News in Atlanta:



> McCoy heard the shots *and grabbed his gun*. Investigators reportedly said that Matthewis fired several rounds at McCoy. “He put his life on the line to try and protect the bar that he loves,” bar manager Emily McGhin said.  . .


*Colonial Heights, Tennessee, February 13, 2019*
A shooting at a dentist office in Colonial Heights, Tennessee was stopped by Larry Seagroves, a concealed handgun permit holder. After the killer, Harry Weaver, fatally shot one person, Kelly Weaver, his wife, he turned his gun on other people in the office. One of them, a dental hygienist, Sabrina Steal, said: “then he raised a gun to shoot me” (see video). Larry Seagroves shot the killer, wounding him before he could shoot these other people. After the attack, Harry Weaver told the police: “You all wouldn’t be dealing with me right now if the hero hadn’t stepped in.”

WJHL TV Channel 11 in Johnson City, Tennessee reports: “It was just a horrific situation that police said could have possibly been even worse if a patient at that dentist office didn’t take action. We are talking about a man identified as Larry Seagroves, a man with a carry permit.”

Sullivan County Sheriff Jeff Cassidy said: “He was a concealed carry permit holder and I’m going to call him a hero today.”

The court hearing reported in the video took place on March 22, 2019. More information is *available here*.

*Birmingham, Alabama, October 27, 2018*
A masked man entered a McDonald’s restaurant and immediately started firing his gun. A concealed handgun permit holder returned firing killing the attacker.



> “He’s my hero,” he said. “Because I can only imagine how it would’ve went if he wasn’t armed. We might not be here having this interview.” . . .
> He said he heard more than 15 shots fired. . . .
> — Markus Washington, an employee at the McDonalds’, to WAFF Channel 48 News


From WBRC Channel 6 in Birmingham, Alabama has this note:


> A masked man entered the restaurant when an employee opened the door for a father and his sons to leave. The masked man then opened fire in the restaurant. At that point, the father began shooting at the masked man. Both the father and the masked man were struck along with one of the children. Police later confirmed that the masked man is now deceased, and the father had non-life threatening injuries. A minor had non-life-threatening injuries.


The motive of the attacker isn’t clear. While it is possible that robbery was the motive, the fact that the attacker immediately began firing his gun as soon as he entered the restaurant means it is very likely that his goal was most likely just to kill people.
*Louisville, Kentucky, Wednesday, October 24, 2018*
The national media has picked up on this story because of the killer, Gregory Bush, is racist, but they are ignoring the fact that a white civilian with a concealed handgun permit stopped the attack. Both the people murdered at the Koger — Maurice Stallard, 69, and Vickie Jones, 67 — were black. Bush had apparently tried to do an attack at a black church before shooting blacks at the Kroger indicates he was trying to kill as many blacks as possible and that the number of blacks killed could have been much worse if it wasn’t for the concealed handgun permit holder.

The Louisville Courier Journal reports that after Bush had visited the church:



> The first call came into MetroSafe at 2:54 p.m. reporting that shots were fired inside the store. There were reports of “multiple injuries.” . . .
> According to the Jeffersontown police, the suspect, Gregory Alan Bush, entered the grocery store and “gunned down” the first victim, and then exited the store where he killed the second victim.
> While in the parking lot, a citizen who possessed a *concealed carry permit* engaged with the suspect, according to Jeffersontown police.
> “Multiple rounds were fired by both the suspect and the intervening citizen,” Jeffersontown police wrote in a statement. “Neither the suspect nor the involved citizen, nor any other bystanders were injured with this exchange of gunfire.”
> Bush fled the scene in his vehicle. Police located Bush and his vehicle on Hurstbourne Parkway, next to the Stony Brook Center, where he was taken into custody. . . .


Another story on the case notes: “The police chief clarified that . . . the woman killed in the parking lot was shot by the suspect before the exchange [with the permit holder] began . . . .”

*Titusville, Florida, August 4, 2018*
A shooting at a back to school event for children and their families had a shooting that was quickly stopped by a concealed handgun permit holder. Something between 150 and 200 people (video here puts it at over 200), primarily children, were present at the event.

From Fox 32 WOFL in Orlando, Florida.



> Titusville Police still have not released the name of the man who stopped the shooter at a park on Saturday, but they are calling him a hero.
> The gunshots still echo across social media, after the emcee at Titusville’s Peace in the City event posted a Facebook live video of the shooting. When a good Samaritan carrying a licensed concealed weapon shot the attacker, police say he did the right thing.
> “Based on the information that we’ve gathered,” said Titusville Police Sgt. William Amos.  *“This person stepped in and saved a lot of people’s lives.”* . . .


Here is another statement from the Titusville Police via the Orlando Sentinel on the evening of August 6th, 2018.



> Titusville Police are calling the bystander who shot a gunman who opened fire at a park full of kids on Saturday a “hero.” On Monday, police said they aren’t releasing the names of those involved and said the citizen who returned fire on the suspect won’t be facing charges.
> *“He’s a hero,” Titusville Police Sgt. Bill Amos said. “This park was filled with families and children and, at that time, it was an active shooter situation for him and he was trained enough to deal with it and he did.”* . . .


*Tumwater, Washington, June 18, 2018*


> “He is a hero,” Adams said. “He took action. I really think more people could have been shot… he saved us all.”
> A wild rampage at a Walmart in Tumwater, Washington was stopped when three concealed handgun permit holders confronted and killed the attacker. The attacker had carjacked a vehicle that he drove to the Walmart. Once there, the attacker stole ammunition and then went out of the store, continuing to shoot at people. He unsuccessfully tried to carjack another vehicle, seriously wounding the driver. When he attempted to carjack a second car, two armed customers shot dead the attacker.
> According to the local Fox affiliate and Fox News, the man who killed the attacker is a pastor with five kids who was out with his family.
> More details are available at KOMO News here.


*Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Thursday, May 24, 2018*
Two men who had handguns in their cars, Juan Carlos Nazario, 35, and Bryan Whittle, 39, stopped what likely would have been a mass shooting at Louie’s Grill & Bar in Oklahoma City. Police Capt. Bo Matthews said: “You can say they’re heroes, which is a very good thing to say.” Nazario is a security guard, and Whittle was able to legally carry a gun openly without a permit (it is unknown whether he had a concealed handgun permit, though it wasn’t necessary for this case). The shooter, Alexander Tilghman, shot at people “from a position outside the front door” of the restaurant. It was from that position that he was stopped by these two heroes.  It turns out that Whittle’s shot killed the gunman.

From USA Today:



> The two, police say, *prevented what could have been a deadly attack* Thursday night after they armed themselves and took down the shooter, Alexander Tilghman. Both say they don’t feel like heroes. . . .


The police captain also said this:



> “They were able to shoot the suspect and put an end to a very dangerous situation,” Mathews said.


The way that the attack was stopped was described this way:



> “Drop the gun!” [Nazario] yelled repeatedly. Tilghman didn’t respond. He raised the gun again and fired a round in the parking lot.
> Nazario fired two shots. “He just fell to the ground.”
> *Despite a restaurant full of innocent lives potentially saved*, Nazario said he doesn’t feel like a hero.





> “I just can’t understand being called a hero when someone’s life was taken,” he said. “I just did what I had to do. I’m very glad no innocent lives were taken but ultimately, there was a life taken.” . . .


Both Alexander Tilghman, the killer, and Juan Carlos Nazario were security guards. We will continue to check whether Whittle had a concealed handgun permit.

The District Attorney issued this statement: “The two civilians who engaged, and ultimately neutralized the threat posed by Tilghman, were justified and compliant with the law when they employed deadly force.“

*San Antonio, Texas, December 7, 2017 (ABC 13 in San Antonio, Time Magazine)*
This case is an exception to all the other cases shown here in that it received national coverage on Time magazine’s website.  A man with a gun was about to start shooting a father’s children as they were walking out of a restroom when the father killed the attacker.  This case was also unusual from the other cases above is that the attack was part of some other crime, a robbery.  Police stated that the permit holder saved at least several lives.  From ABC 13:



> . . . Police say the robber approached the father around 8:30 Wednesday night while he was waiting for his kids to leave the bathroom.
> That’s when the robber pointed his gun at the family.
> The father pulled out his own gun and killed the robber in the middle of the dining area.
> Police say the father is a *licensed carrier*. He is not facing any charges.
> *Officials also say the father saved several lives*. . . .


*Rockledge, Florida, November 17, 2017 (Florida Today, WFTV.com in Orlando)*
Two concealed handgun permit holders stopped an attack at Schlenker Automotive repair shop at 4:30 PM on the Friday after Thanksgiving.  The attacker, Robert Bailey, was armed with a .45-caliber handgun and “multiple magazines” and killed one person and severely wounded another in the business’ parking lot.  Bailey continued shooting inside the shop.  From Florida Today:



> Two other workers — both concealed weapons permit holders — confronted the gunman and engaged in a shootout that left the suspect wounded. Bailey continues to recover at Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne. . . .


Video here from WFTV stated: “*The police say this could have been even worse*.”  “This business was packed today with customers and employees,” noted Karen Parks, a reporter at the scene.  Parks also reported that the police referred to the permit holder as a “good samaritan.”

According to news reports, Bailey had no connection to the auto shop.  Indeed, he didn’t even own a car.  It appears as if Bailey had selected this target simply to kill people.

*Clearlake Oaks, California, October 23, 2017 (FBI report on active shooter incidents for 2016-17)*
From the FBI report on page 5. At the first target, the killer was forced to stop his attack because of police arriving at the scene.  At the second target, a concealed handgun permit holder forced the attacker to break off his attack.


> On October 23, 2017, at 11:23 a.m., Alan Ashmore, 61, armed with a shotgun and a handgun, allegedly began firing into several homes and a vehicle in Clearlake Oaks, California, killing two people, includ-ing his father, and wounding one. Another person was wounded while fleeing out of a residence window. The shooter then shot and wounded a responding law enforcement officer before fleeing in his vehicle. The shooter drove to a nearby gas station and exchanged gunfire with the vendor, who possessed a valid firearms permit. The shooter fled the scene in his vehicle and drove to another gas station where he firedmore shots.









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## 2aguy

And more.......

*Antioch, Tennessee, September 24, 2017 (Chicago Tribune, Daily Caller) (the above picture shows a picture of Samson after he received treatment for his minor wound)*
A 25-year-old shooter, Emanuel Kidega Samson, killed one person in the parking lot, entered the church, and started shooting.  A 22-year-old usher, Robert Engle, tried to wrestle with the shooter, but Samson is a very large bodybuilder, and Engle realized that he was not strong enough to stop him.  During the scuffle, Samson pistol wiped Engle causing him to bleed from his head.  Samson also shot himself, causing very minor wounds to his chest and arm.  Engle then ran to his car and got his permitted concealed handgun. The usher came back into the church and confronted the attacker, holding him there at gunpoint until police arrived. With one dead and seven wounded, the attack could have been much worse.



> Don Aaron, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department, said Samson drove up to the church and shot and killed a woman who was standing near her vehicle in the parking lot. The shooter — who police said was armed with two handguns — then entered the church through a rear door, shooting and wounding six people inside.
> At some point, the gunman also pistol-whipped a church usher, causing “significant injuries” to the man, Aaron said. The usher, 22-year-old Robert “Caleb” Engle, confronted the gunman, police said, and during a struggle, Samson was injured with a shot from his own gun. The usher then ran to his car and retrieved a handgun, police said.
> Aaron said the usher ensured the gunman did not make any more movements until officers arrived on the scene. “It would appear he was not expecting to encounter a brave individual like the church usher,” Aaron said.
> Police Chief Steve Anderson praised Engle for intervening: “We believe he is the hero today.” . . .


Video of Police Chief Steve Anderson’s comments:



> He is the hero here.  He is the person who stopped this madness in its tracks.


*Arlington, Texas, May 3, 2017 (Dallas Morning News)*
This attack was stopped before more than one person was killed.  Yet, the police spokesman made it clear that the concealed handgun permit holder “prevented further loss of life” and that the killer was “shooting at the front door” at the customers who were fleeing the restaurant.  The headline on the Dallas Morning News story was: “‘Hero’ stopped mass murder by crazed bar patron who was armed to the teeth, police say.”  Emphasis added in quotes below.



> A concealed carry holder is being heralded as a “hero” by Arlington police for preventing mass murder by killing an “incoherent” gunman at a bar Wednesday evening.
> Before he was shot about 6:15 p.m., the gunman killed the manager of Zona Caliente in the 6500 block of South Cooper Street, police spokesman Christopher Cook said.
> Police later identified the gunman as 48-year-old James Jones of Grand Prairie and the victim as 37-year-old Cesar Perez of Duncanville. The man who killed Jones has not been identified.
> Authorities later *found two loaded guns and two knives on Jones*, Cook said Thursday.
> *“We do believe he had the capacity to do much greater harm,”* Cook said.





> “After he was struck once, the suspect started shooting at the front door,” Cook told the _Arlington Voice_. “We know people were trying to escape, but we’re not sure if he was just trying to harm others.”
> More than a dozen customers and a handful of employees were in the sports bar at the time of the shooting.
> Cook said the customer, who was dining with his wife, *“prevented further loss of life.” . . .*


Another story in the Arlington Voice mentioned this:



> *“Had the Good Samaritan not intervened, there could have further loss of life,”* Cook said.
> Jones did not have a license to carry. . . .


From the Fort Worth Star-Telegram



> “*because he engaged the shooter there was no further loss of life.*”


Other stories are available here and here.

*Townville Elementary School, September 28, 2016 (FBI report on active shooter incidents for 2016-17)*

From the FBI report on page 5.


> On September 28, 2016, at 1:45 p.m., Jesse Dewitt Osborne, 14, armed with a handgun, allegedly began shooting at the Townville Elementary School playground in Townville, South Carolina. Prior to theshooting, the shooter, a former student, killed his father at their home. Two people were killed, includingone student; three were wounded, one teacher and two students. A volunteer firefighter, who possessed a valid firearms permit, restrained the shooter until law enforcement officers arrived and apprehended him.


*Lyman, South Carolina, June 30, 2016 (Fox Carolina)*
Just a couple of weeks after the Orlando massacre, man, 32-year-old Jody Ray Thompson, started shooting at others at another nightclub.  Fortunately, unlike Florida, permitted concealed handguns were allowed in bars in South Carolina.  Before he could shoot a fourth person, the permit holder was able to shoot back, wounding Thompson in the leg.



> “His rounds struck 3 victims, and almost struck a fourth victim, who in self-defense, pulled his own weapon and fired, striking Thompson in the leg,” Lt. Kevin Bobo said.
> Bobo said the man who shot Thompson has a valid concealed weapons permit, cooperated with investigators, and won’t be facing any charges. . . . .


Also this



> *and at least one South Carolina sheriff [is] crediting a man with a concealed carry permit  with preventing further violence at a nightclub* . . .


*Winton, Ohio, Sunday, July 26, 2015, Fox 19 in Cincinnati and Fox News*
The shooter in this case directly fired at four different people. Fortunately, because of the permit holder’s quick actions, no one was seriously injured.



> [Thomas] McCary [62-years-old] was arguing with a woman around 8 p.m. Sunday night and, when the woman’s brother, Patrick Ewing, approached, McCary pulled out a .38-caliber handgun and fired three shots at him, Cincinnati police said.
> Ewing didn’t get hit, but he did get his own gun and returned fire, wounding McCary in the leg. Ewing had a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
> Injured, McCary went into his house to get a second gun and, holding a weapon in each hand, he fired three shots in the direction of the woman, Jeaneta Walker, her 1-year-old son and a third man.
> Ewing fired at McCary again to try to distract him as the victims fled indoors. McCary squeezed off a few more rounds, hitting no one, before withdrawing into his apartment, Cincinnati.com reported. . . .


*Conyers, Georgia, Sunday, May 31, 2015, The Rockdale Citizen*
Often it is claimed that citizens who stop mass public shootings don’t get news coverage because they stop anyone from being killed.  But in this case two people were killed before the permit holder was able to stop the attack.



> A customer who fired back at the suspect who killed two people in a Ga. Highway 20 liquor store Sunday afternoon is being hailed as a hero.
> Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett said at a press conference Monday that Todd C. Scott, 44, a resident of Covington, very likely prevented other customers in the store from losing their lives.
> Levett said store video from Magnet Bottle Shop showed that the suspect, Jeffrey Scott Pitts, 36, came in the store Sunday afternoon firing a handgun.
> *“I believe that if Mr. Scott did not return fire at the suspect then more of those customers would have hit by a gun,”* said [Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett]. “It didn’t appear that he cared who he shot or where he was shooting until someone was shooting back at him. *So in my opinion he saved other lives in that store*.”


From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:



> Pitts fled after another patron, Todd C. Scott, of Covington, opened fire with his own hand gun. It is still unclear whether Aikens died before or after Scott returned fire with Pitts, but *the sheriff credited Scott with saving lives*.
> “*I consider him to be a hero*,” [Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett] said.


*New Holland, Wisconsin, May 5th, 2015, Fox Carolina (cases such as this where the people who stopped the attack didn’t fire a gun don’t tend to get that much news attention):*



> FOX Carolina 21: *“CWPs likely stopped deaths of children, firefighters”*
> Firefighters said they may have stopped a massacre after a gunman surprised them at their station Tuesday.
> The Aiken County Sheriff’s Office said deputies responded to the New Holland Fire Department’s Station 2 around 6:30 p.m. for a report of shots fired.
> Firefighters said Chad Barker pulled up to the crowded fire station parking lot full of children and firefighters, got out of his car, and began firing in the air and at his vehicle. They say he also pointed the firearm at individual firefighters for lengthy periods of time.
> “I came out of the office, saw the man with the gun, told everybody to leave out the back quickly that there was a man in the parking lot with a gun, and I was not kidding,” said Gary Knoll, a firefighter for New Holland.
> Knoll said he and another firefighter who have concealed weapons permits pulled their guns on the gunman.
> Knoll said Barker returned to his vehicle and firefighters carefully followed him with their weapons still drawn. After encouraging Barker to put the gun down, Knoll said Barker ultimately complied and Knoll grabbed the gun. . . .


*Chicago, Illinois, April 19, 2015, Chicago Sun-Times*
An Uber driver with a permitted concealed handgun stopped what likely would have been a mass public shooting.  Police arrived on the scene quickly, but the Uber driver had still already taken care of the situation before they arrived. From Mitch Dudek in the Chicago Sun-Times (April 19, 2015):



> An Uber driver put his concealed carry permit to use Friday night when he pulled a gun and opened fire on a man he saw firing a pistol into a group of people on a Logan Square sidewalk, according to prosecutors.
> Six blasts from his gun injured a 22-year-old man identified as Everardo Custodio.
> Custodio suffered wounds to his shin, knee and lower back . . . Cook County Judge Peggy Chiampas refused to grant [Custodio] bail on charges of aggravated battery with a firearm and illegal possession of a firearm.
> The 47-year-old Uber driver “was acting in self-defense and *in the defense of others,” Assistant State’s Attorney Barry Quinn said*. . . .
> The Uber driver had dropped off a passenger minutes before the shooting occurred, said Uber spokeswoman Jen Mullin. She had no comment on the driver’s actions other than to say the company requires all its drivers to abide by local, state and federal laws pertaining to transporting firearms in vehicles. . . .
> Police patrolling the area heard the shots and arrived to find Custodio on the ground and bleeding. Police also recovered a handgun found near Custodio, Quinn said. . . .
> [The Uber driver is] a registered gun owner who has a concealed carry license. He doesn’t face any charges. . . .


*Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 22, 2015, NBC Channel 10:*


> A 40-year-old man was inside Falah Barber Shop Inc. on the 600 block of Preston Street shortly before 3 p.m. Sunday when police say he began fighting with another person inside. . . .
> The fight quickly escalated and the 40-year-old man took out his gun and opened fire on customers and barbers, police said. , , ,
> As he was shooting, another man outside heard the gunfire, ran into the shop and took out his own gun, according to investigators. He then opened fire, striking the 40-year-old man once in the chest. . . .
> “The person who responded was a legal gun permit carrier,” said Philadelphia Police Captain Frank Llewellyn. “*He responded and I guess he saved a lot of people in there.*“


*Darby, Pennsylvania, July 25, 2014*
John Lott in the Philadelphia Inquirer (Other details on the case are available here).



> The attacker, Richard Plotts, is a convicted felon, which bans him from legally owning a gun. . . .
> At Mercy Fitzgerald, caseworker Theresa Hunt was killed when Plotts opened fire during a regularly scheduled appointment with Dr. Lee Silverman. Fortunately, the doctor had his own gun and returned fire, hitting Plotts three times and critically wounding him.
> After firing all the bullets in his gun,  Plotts still had 39 bullets on him, bullets that he could have used to shoot many other people . . .


According to the Associated Press:



> *“Without a doubt, I believe the doctor saved lives,” said Yeadon police chief Donald Molineux, according to the Associated Press.*
> “Without that firearm, [the shooter] could have went out in the hallway and just walked down the offices until he ran out of ammunition,” Molineux said. . . .


Read more:  Doctor ‘Saved Lives’ By Shooting Hospital Gunman

*Chicago, Illinois, July 7, 2014, from Geoff Ziezulewicz in the Chicago Tribune:*


> A Gresham man fired on a group of people leaving a party, only to be shot himself by one of the victims, a military service member with a concealed carry permit, authorities said.
> The military member and three others were leaving a party Friday night . . .
> One of the victims had noticed a cup of liquor on top of her vehicle and asked attendees of a party next door who it belonged to, Hain said.
> When she removed it, Denzel A. Mickiel approached her, shouting obscenities and threatening her and her friends, according to Hain and court records. . . .
> As Mickiel fired at the victims’ vehicle, the military member retrieved his gun and took cover near the vehicle’s front fender, according to Hain. Two unidentified people also shot at the group, she said.
> The military service member fired two shots and struck Mickiel twice, she said.
> A 22-year-old woman in the group was injured by Mickiel in the shooting, suffering wounds to the arm and back, according to court records and Hain.
> The four victims escaped the melee in two vehicles as two unidentified people continued to shoot at them, Hain said. . . .


*Portland, Oregon, January 11, 2014, Oregonian*
Thomas Eliot Hjelmeland, 43-years-old, was ejected from a nightclub, but he returned 30 minutes later with a gun and wearing a mask.  He shot the bouncer who had ejected him and shot at others.  The bouncer was shot in the head and critically wounded. Two others were also wounded: one patron in the foot and a waitress, who had been standing at the front of the club, in both of her legs.  Hjelmeland was on probation at the time of the incident.  Given that Hjelmeland was shooting people all around the club, Bouncer Jonathan Baer, a concealed handgun permit holder who fatally shot Hjelmeland, appears to have had good reason to fear that other people at the front of the club would also have been shot by Hjelmeland.

Here is a February 1, 2014, article in the Oregonian.



> Baer, 31, followed the masked gunman out of the club’s interior doors to the entrance foyer and drew his own Glock .40-caliber pistol from his hip. He looked back one or two times to check on Rizzo, who hadn’t gotten up.
> While using one foot to prop open the club’s inner door, Baer said he saw the masked man reach the front door. The man stopped and looked as if he were going to turn around. Baer said he leaned forward and fired two to three rounds.
> Baer, who has a concealed handgun license, . . .
> Baer later explained to detectives that he had thought about two dancers and two customers who were standing outside the club smoking. He said he didn’t want anyone else to get hurt. . . .


And this January 21, 2014, article in the Oregonian.



> Club co-owner Connie Barnes said she did not know Baer was armed that night, but she called him a hero.
> In a Facebook post, Baer wrote, “I did what I felt was right to stop the shooter…I carry every day, and will continue to, and will so with the hope that I will NEVER have to pull it out again.” . . .


*Plymouth, Pennsylvania, September 2012*
The article by Bob Kalinowski Citizensvoice.com states:



> . . . It’s the gun prosecutors said Ktytor used to put an end to a 26-year-old man’s shooting rampage on Sept. 9, 2012 in Plymouth.
> Ever since Ktytor, who has a concealed carry license, dropped the killer with several shots on Main Street in Plymouth, . . .
> In October, the murder suspect, William Allabaugh of Plymouth, pleaded guilty to third-degree murder and attempted murder, then was sentenced to 25 to 50 years in state prison.
> Authorities say Allabaugh critically wounded Stephen Hollman, 30, by shooting him in the head inside Bonnie’s Food and Spirits on Main Street. A short time later, Allabaugh fatally shot Scott Luzetsky, 39, outside the bar. Police said both victims were innocent bystanders who didn’t provoke the attack by Allabaugh, who was angered he was being kicked out of the bar.


More importantly, see this (emphasis added):



> “The video footage and the evidence reveals that Mr. Allabaugh had turned around and was reapproaching the bar. Mr. [Ktytor] then acted, taking him down. We believe that _*it could have been much worse that night*_,” Luzerne County A.D.A. Jarrett Ferentino said.


*Early, Texas, August 2012, KTXS ABC Channel 12:*


> An armed citizen, Vic Stacy, shot and stopped a deranged man who had just murdered two neighbors and was firing at police with a rifle. Stacy made a very long shot with his revolver, three times as far as the perpetrator was from the police officer, who had an AR-15 type rifle.


*Santa Clara, California, July 26, 2012, Reuters:*


> . . . 21-year-old Richard Gable Stevens, was subdued after tense moments Monday evening at a shooting range and gun store in this town 30 miles (48 km) south of San Francisco.
> “He intended to go out in a blaze of glory,” Morec said, noting Stevens had accumulated more than 100 rounds of ammunition for his rented 9mm semi-automatic weapon.
> “It certainly looks like he intended to take a lot more people out.”. . . .
> After several minutes on the range, however, Stevens returned to the club’s gun store and shot at the ceiling. He then herded three store employees out the door into an alley, saying he intended to kill them, Morec said.
> Unknown to Stevens, one store employee was carrying a .45 caliber handgun concealed beneath his shirt. When Stevens looked away, the employee fired, hitting Stevens several times in the chest and bringing him to the ground. . . . .


*Salt Lake, April 27, 2012, ABC Channel 4*
he Original story is no longer available, but this is its content:



> A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith’s store. Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith’s employee Dorothy Espinoza says, “He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people.” Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. “There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms.” Then, before the suspect could find another victim – a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. “A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith’s grabbed him.” . . .
> Another media report is available here: Lt. Brian Purvis noted “This was a very volatile situation that could have gotten even worse.  We can only assume, judging from what we saw, that it could have gotten a lot worse so he [the permit holder] was definitely in the right place at the right time.”  A brief description is available here.


*Aurora, Colorado, April 2012, Fox 31 Denver by  Tammy Vigil:*


> Kiarron Parker rammed his car into another in the church parking lot, got out and attempted to kill multiple church members. He was only able to kill one before a member of the congregation, the nephew of the lady killed, and an off duty police officer, drew his handgun and shot Parker, stopping the killing.


*Spartanburg, South Carolina, March 2012, article by Jenny Arnold at GoUpState.com (see also here):*


> . . . About 11:20 a.m., Jesse Gates returned to the church. The Rev. Guyton’s grandson, Aaron Guyton, 26, was in the recreation building separate from the church and saw Gates get a shotgun from the trunk of his car.
> “At that point, I knew I had to do something,” Aaron Guyton said. “I wanted to try to contain him outside.”
> Aaron Guyton went into the main building and locked the doors.
> Henry Guyton said he was in the pulpit, preaching about how Jesus spoke the word of God and healed the sick, when Gates kicked open the side door of the sanctuary and entered with the shotgun, pointing it at the pastor and congregation.
> Church members, including Aaron Guyton, a concealed weapons permit holder, acted quickly.
> Aaron Guyton held Gates at gunpoint, as church members Jesse Smith and Leland Powers held him on the floor and waited for deputies to arrive. The Rev. Guyton said he stepped onto a chair, climbed down a 3-foot bannister surrounding the pulpit and took the shotgun from Jesse Gates. . . .
> No shots were fired and no one was injured, according to deputies.
> During a news conference Sunday, Wright called Aaron and Henry Guyton, Jesse Smith and Leland Powers “everyday heroes.” . . .


*Oklahoma City, December 2009, KWTV NEWS Channel 9:*


> . . . Police said the man started firing multiple shots in the parking lot of the Tammaron Village apartments around 4 p.m. Thursday.
> Witnesses said the man initially went into the apartment complex’s main office. When employees locked him out, he opened fire in the parking lot.
> As the man was firing shots, another citizen armed with a gun came around the corner and ordered the gunman to put his weapon down. The gunman dropped his weapon and ran into his father’s apartment and barricaded himself inside. . . .


*Richmond, Virginia, July 2009 (this first description is based on a video of the shooting and a talk on the attack is here):*


> The gun owner was in the store [the Golden Market] waiting in line to pay for an item when the bad guy came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The [bad guy] yelled for everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. . . .
> The [bad guy] ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the [bad guy] was too distracted by the [gun owner] to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren’t for that [gun owner] returning fire. . . .
> As he approached the front of one aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about to execute him, when he was again distracted by the [gun owner]. . . .


*College Park (near Atlanta), Georgia, May 7, 2009, WSB-TV 2*


> “Apparently, his intent was to rape and murder us all,” said student Charles Bailey.
> Bailey said he thought it was the end of his life and the lives of the 10 people inside his apartment for a birthday party after two masked men with guns burst in through a patio door.
> “They just came in and separated the men from the women and said, ‘Give me your wallets and cell phones,’” said George Williams of the College Park Police Department.
> Bailey said the gunmen started counting bullets. “*The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough*,” said Bailey.
> That’s when one student grabbed a gun out of a backpack and shot at the invader who was watching the men. The gunman ran out of the apartment. . . .


More information is available from WFXI in Atlanta:



> The resident of the apartment, Charles Bailey, told police that he thought it was the end of his life. He and ten other people were in his apartment celebrating at a birthday party when two masked gunmen burst through the patio door. . . .
> Bailey further informed authorities that the suspects counted their bullets. Apparently Hill was guarding the men when one of the victims retrieved a gun from a backpack and turned the tables on the situation. Hill reportedly fled the scene.The victim with the gun then proceeded to the next room where Lavant had watch over the females at the party.The guy was apparently was about to rape one of the females, said Bailey. . . .
> Bailey said *if not for the quick thinking of that party goer, it is likely that all the victims would have been killed*. I am thankful that one student risked his life for others. . . .


----------



## 2aguy

Robber stopped....likely permanently....









						Philadelphia customer walks in on robbery at takeout restaurant, shoots suspect dead: police
					

A customer who walked into a robbery happening at a Philadelphia takeout restaurant shot and killed the armed suspect and will likely not face charges, authorities said.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Vagabond63

Gosh, two whole pages of propaganda fron the "firehose". So how many of these "killers" were law abiding citizens with legal firearms, until they started shooting?

Still, allegedly with 1.1 million DGUs to chose from every year, seems a bit strange that many of these stories are from a decade or so ago...


----------



## Vagabond63

Meanwhile, the other side of the coin, in an America awash with guns, it appears that this woman shot her attacker in “self-defence”. Gosh how heroic…until the shooting victim survives to reveal the woman was just angry that he smoked her pot… Laurel woman accused in shooting denies charges


----------



## Vagabond63

Sad. Another "responsible gun owner" tragedy. https://6abc.com/2-year-old-dead-child-father-charged-bucks-county-death/8467253/ If only he'd had proper training in how to handle and store his gun.


----------



## Vagabond63

Saw this the other day. Well worth a watch.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Sad. Another "responsible gun owner" tragedy. Autopsy confirms 2-year-old in Bucks County died of gunshot wound If only he'd had proper training in how to handle and store his gun.




You can't cover 1.1 million times a year that Americans use their legal guns to save lives.....you just can't find the criminals who use guns illegally to make those 1.1 million Americans with their legal guns disappear..........and that is just one study out of 17 on the topic.......


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Sad. Another "responsible gun owner" tragedy. Autopsy confirms 2-year-old in Bucks County died of gunshot wound If only he'd had proper training in how to handle and store his gun.




If he had wanted that training it is available to all Americans, you ignorant twit......you can't cure stupid.......

You still can't get rid of the fact that Americans use their legal guns to save lives on average 1.1 million times a year.......lives saved from rape, robbery and murder.......lives that are not changed by violent criminals....

And again......since you still refuse to answer these questions....I will repeat them...

Which is better for you.......a woman is brutally raped, tortured and murdered, or she uses a legal gun to save herself?

If a woman uses a gun to save herself from a violent rape, would you go back in time and take that gun away from her.....?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Meanwhile, the other side of the coin, in an America awash with guns, it appears that this woman shot her attacker in “self-defence”. Gosh how heroic…until the shooting victim survives to reveal the woman was just angry that he smoked her pot… Laurel woman accused in shooting denies charges




American has over 600 million guns in private hands......over 19.4 million Americans can legally carry a gun in public for self defense...

Over the last 27 years...what has happened while Americans are buying and carrying guns?

Gun murder down 49%.

Gun crime down 75%.

Violent crime down 72%.

Gun ownership does not increase violent crime or gun crime.  Normal people who own and carry guns do not use them to commit crime.

Nothing you believe about guns is even remotely true or accurate.....

Meanwhile, in Britain....your police can't stop the flood of illegal guns entering Britain......

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

*Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

*Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”*

*Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”*

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========


----------



## irosie91

Tommy Tainant said:


> You have no evidence that any crime is getting worse. In fact the lockdown has led to a reduction in crime. Probably in the US as well.



not in my town-----crime is up---especially physical 
assault and robbery.     The policy imposed from ABOVE is------"don't report it and don't indict" ------the policy sometimes results in  GOOD STATS


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Over the last 27 years...what has happened while Americans are buying and carrying guns?
> 
> Gun murder down 49%.
> 
> Gun crime down 75%.
> 
> Violent crime down 72%.
> 
> Gun ownership does not increase violent crime or gun crime.



More repeated BS from our own "firehose of falsehood". There is no correlation between gun ownership and the decline in crime rate over the last 27 years.


----------



## Vagabond63

irosie91 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have no evidence that any crime is getting worse. In fact the lockdown has led to a reduction in crime. Probably in the US as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not in my town-----crime is up---especially physical
> assault and robbery.     The policy imposed from ABOVE is------"don't report it and don't indict" ------the policy sometimes results in  GOOD STATS
Click to expand...

Which town is that then?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> If he had wanted that training it is available to all Americans,



You missed out the phrase "on a voluntary basis". If you want to own a gun, such training should be mandatory.


----------



## jbrownson0831

Tommy Tainant said:


> You have no evidence that any crime is getting worse. In fact the lockdown has led to a reduction in crime. Probably in the US as well.


Sure, like in Chicago right goofus???


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sad. Another "responsible gun owner" tragedy. Autopsy confirms 2-year-old in Bucks County died of gunshot wound If only he'd had proper training in how to handle and store his gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't cover 1.1 million times a year that Americans use their legal guns to save lives.....you just can't find the criminals who use guns illegally to make those 1.1 million Americans with their legal guns disappear..........and that is just one study out of 17 on the topic.......
Click to expand...


Translation: 2aguy has been found to be spreading BS and fearmongering and is now wildly trying to deflect.


----------



## irosie91

Vagabond63 said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have no evidence that any crime is getting worse. In fact the lockdown has led to a reduction in crime. Probably in the US as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> not in my town-----crime is up---especially physical
> assault and robbery.     The policy imposed from ABOVE is------"don't report it and don't indict" ------the policy sometimes results in  GOOD STATS
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which town is that then?
Click to expand...


new york city


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Over the last 27 years...what has happened while Americans are buying and carrying guns?
> 
> Gun murder down 49%.
> 
> Gun crime down 75%.
> 
> Violent crime down 72%.
> 
> Gun ownership does not increase violent crime or gun crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More repeated BS from our own "firehose of falsehood". There is no correlation between gun ownership and the decline in crime rate over the last 27 years.
Click to expand...



I didn't say there was, with that statistic, and you know this because I keep telling it to you...

What you are desperately trying to hide is this fact....

As more Americans own and carry guns......over 19.4 million Americans can now carry guns for self defense...

*The gun murder rate went down 49%....*

*The gun crime rate went down 75%....*

*The violent crime rate went down 72%.....

This means that gun ownership, and increased gun ownership does not increase the gun murder rate, the gun crime rate or the violent crime rate...

Because, as you pointed out......crime rates around the world went down at the same time.......at the same time as the variable of gun ownership in the U.S. was going up...

This means......using Science......that gun ownership does not increase gun violence, gun murder or gun crime, therefore, gun control is dumb, because it targets people who do not use their legal guns to commit crimes....*


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If he had wanted that training it is available to all Americans,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You missed out the phrase "on a voluntary basis". If you want to own a gun, such training should be mandatory.
Click to expand...



Wrong......mandatory training is used by fascists like you to keep normal, law abiding people from owning guns.....you make the mandatory training requirements so expensive, so difficult, that regular citizens can't afford them in time or money....

And because in the U.S. as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 27 years.....and the gun murder rate went down, the gun crime rate went down, the violent crime rate went down...

And the gun accident rate did not go up...

That means mandatory training is not only a scam by you....it is unnecessary....since as more people own and carry guns over the last 27 years, gun crime went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, violent crime went down 72% and gun accidents also went down..........

Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

*2018.......458

2017 accidental gun death.....486

2016

Gun.....495*


Also in 2017...


Cars....38,659

Poison...64,795
Fall (Gravity) ...36,338
Suffocation...6,946
Fire....2,902
Struck, by or against...819
Bicycle...345

*2016*

Gun.....495


----------



## Turtlesoup

OldLady said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?
> 
> A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.
> 
> Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.
> 
> Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three people shot at party in Essex, say police
> 
> 
> Man suffered life-threatening injuries and two women also shot in early hours of Saturday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you start doing a thread on every gun shot incident in this country, 2AGuy.  This is your country after all.  Why do you think we care if there was a shooting in England?  Or France?
> Let's start hearing about every one of them in this country.
> What?  Impossible?  That's because there are tens of thousands of them a year.  You couldn't type fast enough.
> And it's because every Tom, Dick and Harriett has a gun for no good reason.
Click to expand...

I like the thread being dedicated to the hypocrit brits being so stupid that they outlawed guns so now only the outlaws have the guns.   It's one of those life lesson type of things.


----------



## 2aguy

This is a difference between Britain and the U.S....

If 4 criminals join together they can pretty much have their way with any number of victims in the U.S.......even if they only use clubs and knives.  The victim is outmatched in every way, and will have to submit to the violent criminals.

In the U.S.....even if the 4 home invaders all have guns, in the U.S. the home owner has the chance to use his own legal gun to fight them off.......

Big difference......this attack started with the victim being pistol whipped, and then he shot all 4 attackers killing two of them.....good for him...

*Today it comes from near New Orleans, where a man defended his home and four-year-old little girl against four masked home invaders. When the smoke cleared, he shot all four of them, killing two. *









						Armed Homeowner Fights Off Four Home Invaders, Shoots All of Them, Kills Two - The Truth About Guns
					

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Yes, everyone could use some good news these days. Today it comes from near New Orleans, where a man defended his home and four-year-old little girl against four masked home invaders. When the smoke cleared, he shot all four of them, killing two. Sadly, his little...




					www.thetruthaboutguns.com


----------



## AZrailwhale

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.
Click to expand...

If the number of lives saved by legal possession of a gun is more than one the case for guns is made. I can't see even the most biased person saying that legal possession of guns haven't saved at least one person's life.


----------



## AZrailwhale

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Registering guns has one goal.....knowing who owns the gun so when you have the political power you know where to find them for confiscation.
> 
> Registration of guns does not work....since criminals can't buy, own or carry guns in the first place, they will not have legally registered guns when they commit their crimes......you doofus.  So registering them to normal people has no effect on solving crimes.   Finding a gun that has been stolen and used in a crime does not tell you who pulled the trigger.......the average street life of a gun is about 11 years...after it is stolen......so again...you don't know what you are talking about...
> 
> Here.....the truth, in cut and paste....
> 
> Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up
> 
> *The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.*
> 
> The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.
> 
> So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.
> 
> There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.
> 
> Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.
> 
> 
> *As to solving crimes....it doesn't...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 Myths About The Long Gun Registry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cssa-cila.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Myth #4: Police investigations are aided by the registry.*
> Doubtful. Information contained in the registry is incomplete and unreliable. Due to the inaccuracy of the information, it cannot be used as evidence in court and the government has yet to prove that it has been a contributing factor in any investigation. Another factor is the dismal compliance rate (estimated at only 50%) for licensing and registration which further renders the registry useless. Some senior police officers have stated as such: “The law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered ... the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.” Former Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino, January 2003.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> https://www.quora.com/In-countries-...olved-at-least-in-part-by-use-of-the-registry
> 
> 
> 
> *Tracking physical objects that are easily transferred with a database is non-trivial problem. *Guns that are stolen, loaned, or lost disappear from the registry. The data is has to be manually entered and input mistakes will both leak guns and generate false positive results.
> 
> *Registries don’t solve straw-purchases. *If someone goes through all of the steps to register a gun and simply gives it to a criminal that gun becomes unregistered. Assuming the gun is ever recovered you could theoretically try and prosecute the person who transferred the gun to the criminal, but you aren’t solving the crime you were trying to. Remember that people will prostitute themselves or even their children for drugs, so how much deterrence is there in a maybe-get-a-few-years for straw purchasing?
> 
> *Registries are expensive*. Canada’s registry was pitched as costing the taxpayer $2 million and the rest of the costs were to be payed for with registration fees. It was subject to massive cost overruns that were not being met by registrations fees. When the program was audited in 2002 the program was expected to cost over $1 billion and that the fee revenue was only expected to be $140 million.
> 
> *No gun recovered. *If no gun was recovered at the scene of the crime then your registry isn’t even _theoretically_ helping, let alone providing a practical tool. You need a world where criminals meticulously register their guns and leave them at the crime scene for a registry to start to become useful.
> 
> Say I have a registered gun, and a known associate of mine was shot and killed. Ballistics is able to determine that my known associate was killed with the same make and model as the gun I registered. A registry doesn’t prove that my gun was used, or that I was the one doing the shooting. I was a suspect as soon as we said “known associate” and the police will then being looking for motive and checking for my alibi.
> 
> 
> Bullet tracking..
> 
> Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
> Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.
> 
> Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.
> 
> But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.
> 
> "Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."
> 
> The database "was a waste," said Frank Sloane, owner of Pasadena Gun & Pawn in Anne Arundel County. "There's things that they could have done that would have made sense. This didn't make any sense."
Click to expand...

Even if registering guns was mandatory, criminals couldn't be prosecuted for failing to register their guns because the Fifth Amendment protects them from self-incrimination.  When criminals would registerer their guns, they would be admitting that they were committing a crime by possessing the gun in the first place.


----------



## 2aguy

AZrailwhale said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Registering guns has one goal.....knowing who owns the gun so when you have the political power you know where to find them for confiscation.
> 
> Registration of guns does not work....since criminals can't buy, own or carry guns in the first place, they will not have legally registered guns when they commit their crimes......you doofus.  So registering them to normal people has no effect on solving crimes.   Finding a gun that has been stolen and used in a crime does not tell you who pulled the trigger.......the average street life of a gun is about 11 years...after it is stolen......so again...you don't know what you are talking about...
> 
> Here.....the truth, in cut and paste....
> 
> Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up
> 
> *The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.*
> 
> The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.
> 
> So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.
> 
> There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.
> 
> Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.
> 
> 
> *As to solving crimes....it doesn't...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 Myths About The Long Gun Registry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cssa-cila.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Myth #4: Police investigations are aided by the registry.*
> Doubtful. Information contained in the registry is incomplete and unreliable. Due to the inaccuracy of the information, it cannot be used as evidence in court and the government has yet to prove that it has been a contributing factor in any investigation. Another factor is the dismal compliance rate (estimated at only 50%) for licensing and registration which further renders the registry useless. Some senior police officers have stated as such: “The law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered ... the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.” Former Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino, January 2003.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> https://www.quora.com/In-countries-...olved-at-least-in-part-by-use-of-the-registry
> 
> 
> 
> *Tracking physical objects that are easily transferred with a database is non-trivial problem. *Guns that are stolen, loaned, or lost disappear from the registry. The data is has to be manually entered and input mistakes will both leak guns and generate false positive results.
> 
> *Registries don’t solve straw-purchases. *If someone goes through all of the steps to register a gun and simply gives it to a criminal that gun becomes unregistered. Assuming the gun is ever recovered you could theoretically try and prosecute the person who transferred the gun to the criminal, but you aren’t solving the crime you were trying to. Remember that people will prostitute themselves or even their children for drugs, so how much deterrence is there in a maybe-get-a-few-years for straw purchasing?
> 
> *Registries are expensive*. Canada’s registry was pitched as costing the taxpayer $2 million and the rest of the costs were to be payed for with registration fees. It was subject to massive cost overruns that were not being met by registrations fees. When the program was audited in 2002 the program was expected to cost over $1 billion and that the fee revenue was only expected to be $140 million.
> 
> *No gun recovered. *If no gun was recovered at the scene of the crime then your registry isn’t even _theoretically_ helping, let alone providing a practical tool. You need a world where criminals meticulously register their guns and leave them at the crime scene for a registry to start to become useful.
> 
> Say I have a registered gun, and a known associate of mine was shot and killed. Ballistics is able to determine that my known associate was killed with the same make and model as the gun I registered. A registry doesn’t prove that my gun was used, or that I was the one doing the shooting. I was a suspect as soon as we said “known associate” and the police will then being looking for motive and checking for my alibi.
> 
> 
> Bullet tracking..
> 
> Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
> Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.
> 
> Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.
> 
> But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.
> 
> "Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."
> 
> The database "was a waste," said Frank Sloane, owner of Pasadena Gun & Pawn in Anne Arundel County. "There's things that they could have done that would have made sense. This didn't make any sense."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even if registering guns was mandatory, criminals couldn't be prosecuted for failing to register their guns because the Fifth Amendment protects them from self-incrimination.  When criminals would registerer their guns, they would be admitting that they were committing a crime by possessing the gun in the first place.
Click to expand...



Yep...you are correct, Haynes v United States from the Supreme Court ruled just that way.  Only law abiding people can be prosecuted for not registering their guns....

Dumb, isn't it?

*As with many other 5th amendment cases, felons and others prohibited from possessing firearms could not be compelled to incriminate themselves through registration.[3][4] *

*The National Firearms Act was amended after Haynes to make it apply only to those who could lawfully possess a firearm. **This eliminated prosecution of prohibited persons, such as criminals, and cured the self-incrimination problem.*





__





						Haynes v. United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## 2aguy

An 80 year old man in Britain would simply have to submit to two young car jackers.....in America......they get shot....

Investigators said an 80-year-old Pensacola, Florida, man walked outside to lock his cars just after 11 p.m. Tuesday when two males approached him and demanded his car, WEAR-TV reported.
One of the suspects pulled a gun on the elderly victim, WKRG-TV reported.
But it turns out their target came prepared. Police said the homeowner grabbed his concealed weapon — for which he has a permit — and opened fire, WEAR reported.
Both suspects ran off, WKRG said, adding that one of the victims turned up at a house with a gunshot wound. The second suspect got away, WEAR reported.
--------
Well, it looks like both suspects have an opportunity to step back and evaluate their life choices, now doesn’t it?
------
After all, bad guys are predators. They like to look for easy prey, people like 80-year-old guys in Florida.

And that’s why owning and carrying a gun is so important.

Even an armed criminal is likely to run from an armed citizen defending themselves. While I often point out that bad guys set the terms of engagement, the truth is that the armed citizen is likely the more tenacious side. After all, escape is usually not really an option for the armed citizen. They have their lives to defend.

Putting up a fight really does seem to be the best option when faced with an armed criminal, and this gentleman did fight. As a result, he went home that night and at least one of the thugs went to the hospital. Sure, another got away, but he’s going to have that memory of damn near being lit up by some old guy who didn’t want to give up his cars or his life.









						80-Year-Old Armed Citizen Teaches Carjackers Valuable Life Lesson
					

An elderly man in Florida faced with armed carjackers produced his own firearm and defended himself.




					bearingarms.com
				




And a true observation that anti-gun extremists never understand and this is why the get the entire guns for self defense argument wrong...

*Guns don’t make men evil. They don’t create criminals where none existed previously. They do, however, give people who may not be physically able to meet physical threats an edge that allows them to protect themselves.*


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## 2aguy

Kids.....sitting at their table eating Christmas dinner when criminals shoot at their home.....in gun controlled Britain.....

*A house in Manchester was shot at as children were inside eating their Christmas dinner. Police have launched an investigation after shots were fired on two separate occasions at the property in Moston on December 25. Two adults in their 50s and two teenagers, aged 17 and 14, were inside the property when it was first targeted at 1am, police said. A young child and two other adults, aged 40 and 35, were also present having their Christmas dinner during the second shooting.*


Read more: Shots fired at family home as children eat their Christmas dinner

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: Metro









						Shots fired at family home as children eat their Christmas dinner
					

Police have launched an investigation after shots were fired at the property in Manchester on two separate occasions.




					metro.co.uk


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## Vagabond63

AZrailwhale said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the number of lives saved by legal possession of a gun is more than one the case for guns is made. I can't see even the most biased person saying that legal possession of guns haven't saved at least one person's life.
Click to expand...

Using your logic then, if the lives saved by controlling guns is more than one, the case for gun control is made.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> AZrailwhale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the number of lives saved by legal possession of a gun is more than one the case for guns is made. I can't see even the most biased person saying that legal possession of guns haven't saved at least one person's life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Using your logic then, if the lives saved by controlling guns is more than one, the case for gun control is made.
Click to expand...



And if the lives saved by allowing people to own and carry guns is in the 10s of thousands, the case for freedom is made......

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


*that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved**—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.*



A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..


Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

*First,* a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

*Second,* raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

*Third,* a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

*Fourth,* we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> AZrailwhale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the number of lives saved by legal possession of a gun is more than one the case for guns is made. I can't see even the most biased person saying that legal possession of guns haven't saved at least one person's life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Using your logic then, if the lives saved by controlling guns is more than one, the case for gun control is made.
Click to expand...


Hey...Vagabond.....been a while...

Again...

Which is better, which do you prefer....

That a woman is tortured, raped and murdered....or she is able to own and even carry a gun to prevent the rape torture and murder?

If a woman uses a gun to stop a violent rape....would you like to go back in time to be able to take that gun away from her?

Since you refuse to answer those questions...I will keep posing them to you.....


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> And if the lives saved by allowing people to own and carry guns is in the 10s of thousands, the case for freedom is made....


 Oh, you mean by attempting a violent insurrection against a lawfully elected government in order to prevent them validating a free and fair election result in order to impose an orange narcissist dictator?

Interesting how when a "well regulated militia" turned up to prevent this, all the Right wing white supremacist gun-nuts just melted away like snow in the sunshine... Yes the case for freedom was made, America needs gun control, so only responsible adults can have them as opposed to the whackjob conspiracy theorists and other gullables who swallow the bovine excrement from sources like your own firehose of falsehood like post #687 above.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AZrailwhale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the number of lives saved by legal possession of a gun is more than one the case for guns is made. I can't see even the most biased person saying that legal possession of guns haven't saved at least one person's life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Using your logic then, if the lives saved by controlling guns is more than one, the case for gun control is made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey...Vagabond.....been a while...
> 
> Again...
> 
> Which is better, which do you prefer....
> 
> That a woman is tortured, raped and murdered....or she is able to own and even carry a gun to prevent the rape torture and murder?
> 
> If a woman uses a gun to stop a violent rape....would you like to go back in time to be able to take that gun away from her?
> 
> Since you refuse to answer those questions...I will keep posing them to you.....
Click to expand...


Well, had you not been too busy continually regurgitating your torrential cut and paste BS, you'd have noticed the fact I have answered you twice now. I can't be bothered to trawl back through the morass of your cut and paste BS to find them again, so knock yourself out .


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if the lives saved by allowing people to own and carry guns is in the 10s of thousands, the case for freedom is made....
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you mean by attempting a violent insurrection against a lawfully elected government in order to prevent them validating a free and fair election result in order to impose an orange narcissist dictator?
> 
> Interesting how when a "well regulated militia" turned up to prevent this, all the Right wing white supremacist gun-nuts just melted away like snow in the sunshine... Yes the case for freedom was made, America needs gun control, so only responsible adults can have them as opposed to the whackjob conspiracy theorists and other gullables who swallow the bovine excrement from sources like your own firehose of falsehood like post #687 above.
Click to expand...



It wasn't an insurrection......it was a bunch of people milling around taking selfies while antifa/blm members of the democrat party attacked police and vandalized the building.

Which is better, which do you prefer....

That a woman is tortured, raped and murdered....or she is able to own and even carry a gun to prevent the rape torture and murder?

If a woman uses a gun to stop a violent rape....would you like to go back in time to be able to take that gun away from her?

Since you refuse to answer those questions...I will keep posing them to you....


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AZrailwhale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the number of lives saved by legal possession of a gun is more than one the case for guns is made. I can't see even the most biased person saying that legal possession of guns haven't saved at least one person's life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Using your logic then, if the lives saved by controlling guns is more than one, the case for gun control is made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey...Vagabond.....been a while...
> 
> Again...
> 
> Which is better, which do you prefer....
> 
> That a woman is tortured, raped and murdered....or she is able to own and even carry a gun to prevent the rape torture and murder?
> 
> If a woman uses a gun to stop a violent rape....would you like to go back in time to be able to take that gun away from her?
> 
> Since you refuse to answer those questions...I will keep posing them to you.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, had you not been too busy continually regurgitating your torrential cut and paste BS, you'd have noticed the fact I have answered you twice now. I can't be bothered to trawl back through the morass of your cut and paste BS to find them again, so knock yourself out .
Click to expand...



You refused to answer the questions..........so again..

Which is better, which do you prefer....

That a woman is tortured, raped and murdered....or she is able to own and even carry a gun to prevent the rape torture and murder?

If a woman uses a gun to stop a violent rape....would you like to go back in time to be able to take that gun away from her?

Since you refuse to answer those questions...I will keep posing them to you....


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## 2aguy

But......how do British criminals have guns......and hand grenades?   Looks like they are following the lead of Swedish gangs and tooling up ......hand grenades?

Guns and hand grenades found in Manchester....









						Flats evacuated after police find guns and hand grenades during armed raids
					

400 people were forced from their homes during the huge police investigation.




					metro.co.uk


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## 2aguy

Can someone from Britain explain to us how it is that 14-15 year olds used a gun, in Britain, to murder another 15 year old boy?

Did you guys forget to include 14 and 15 year olds when you banned guns?

The youngest of the two had the gun?   Odd that a 14 year old in Britain had a gun......

*A pair of young teenagers, 14 and 15, have appeared in court after being charged with murdering another 15-year-old with a ‘gang of youths’.  Keon Lincoln died after suffering stab and gunshot wounds from a group of youngsters who attacked him in broad daylight outside his home in Handsworth, Birmingham. Two teenagers, 14 and 15, were arrested on suspicion of his murder and they appeared in court today.
----
While they have both been charged for murder, the youngest defendant faces another charge of possessing a firearm and the oldest has been charged with possessing a knife.*


Read more: Teenagers in court charged with murder of boy, 15, who was shot and stabbed

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


Read more: Teenagers in court charged with murder of boy, 15, who was shot and stabbed











						Teenagers in court charged with murder of boy, 15, who was shot and stabbed
					

They both face charges of murder while the 14-year-old is also charged with possessing a firearm.




					metro.co.uk


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## 2aguy

And these guys?  Sentenced in another shooting......in gun free Britain?









						Two jailed after man shot with sawn-off shotgun through van window
					

The pair have received a combined total of 37 years in prison.




					www.independent.co.uk


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## 2aguy

British cop?  Never seen so many guns taken off of the streets of London....

But...how is that possible?  They banned and confiscated guns in the 1990s....so Britain should be gun free, especially for criminals....

Right?

*He told the Standard: “In nearly 30 years’ service, I’ve never seen this amount of firearms being taken off the streets of London.*









						Guns blitz as Met targets underworld armourers in dawn raids
					

At least 41 firearms including an Uzi submachine gun were seized




					www.standard.co.uk


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