# U.S. criticizes new China zone, vows to defend Japan



## Vikrant

GENEVA  The United States said Saturday it was deeply concerned and committed to defending Japan after China announced an air zone in the East China Sea that includes disputed islets.

In a move that U.S. ally Japan branded as very dangerous, China said it was setting up the air defense identification zone over the islands administered by Tokyo to guard against potential air threats.

In similar statements, Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said that the United States was deeply concerned about the moves by China, which also scrambled air force jets to carry out a patrol mission in the newly declared zone.

This unilateral action constitutes an attempt to change the status quo in the East China Sea, Kerry said.

Escalatory action will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident, the top U.S. diplomat said from Geneva, where he was taking part in talks on reaching an agreement with Iran on its nuclear program.

Kerry said that the United States has urged China to exercise caution and restraint, and warned Beijing against implementing its new zone.

We urge China not to implement its threat to take action against aircraft that do not identify themselves or obey orders from Beijing, Kerry said.

Hagel reiterated that the Japanese-administered Senkaku Islands  which the Chinese claim and call the Diaoyu  fell under the U.S.-Japan security treaty, meaning that Washington would defend its ally Tokyo if the area is attacked.

We are in close consultation with our allies and partners in the region, including Japan. We remain steadfast in our commitments to our allies and partners, Hagel said.

The defense chief made clear that the United States, which stations more than 70,000 troops in Japan and South Korea, would not respect Chinas declaration of control over the zone.

This announcement by the Peoples Republic of China will not in any way change how the United States conducts military operations in the region, Hagel said.

The outline of the zone, which is shown on the Chinese defense ministry website and a state media Twitter account (pic.twitter.com/4a2vC6PH8O), covers a wide area of the East China Sea between South Korea and Taiwan that includes airspace above the disputed islets.

Japan last year nationalized some of the islets and has vowed not to cede sovereignty or even to acknowledge a dispute with China, accusing its growing neighbor of trying to change the status quo through intimidation.

China and Taiwan both claim the islets, which are near potentially energy-rich waters.

The United States says that it has no position on the islets ultimate sovereignty but believes that they are currently under Japanese administration.

Freedom of overflight and other internationally lawful uses of sea and airspace are essential to prosperity, stability and security in the Pacific, Kerry said.

He called for a more collaborative and less confrontational future in the Pacific.

The United States, for its part, does not ask foreign aircraft to identify themselves if they are not intending to enter U.S. airspace.

U.S. President Barack Obama has pledged a greater focus on Asia in light of Chinas rise and plans to shift the majority of U.S. warships to the Asia-Pacific region by 2020.

Obama plans to visit Asia, reportedly including Japan, in April. Kerry, who has invested much of his time on the Middle East, will travel to Asia in the coming weeks.

U.S. criticizes new China zone, vows to defend Japan | The Japan Times


----------



## Mr. H.

Oh goody. Another Obama "red line".


----------



## Vikrant

It looks like China is acting rogue.


----------



## Vikrant

Here is Chinese government's view:


The airforce says it has conducted its first air patrol since the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone was announced. Reconnaissance and early-warning aircraft and warplanes were deployed. But what is an Air Defense Identification Zone, and how does it work?
Air Defence Identification Zone is a zone that can extend in some cases up to 300 miles beyond the territorial sea. It&#8217;s established by some countries off their coasts for security reasons. When entering the zone, all aircraft are required to identify themselves, report flight plans, and inform ground control of their exact position.
Military expert Yin Zhuo said, "Since the 1950s, some countries have demarcated Air Defense Identification Zones on high seas or international waters. It&#8217;s also called identification belt."
Air Defense Identification Zone is an early-warning air defense concept. It has been implemented in more than 20 countries, including the United States, Canada, Australia, South Korea and Japan.
For example, after Japan&#8217;s surrender in 1945, the US demarcated an identification zone off Japan&#8217;s coasts, but it was under the control of the US military in Japan. It was only until 1969 that the US transferred the management of the zone to Japan.
After that, Japan expanded the zone westward twice, once in 1972, the other in 2010. Japan follows a warning sequence for unidentified aircraft: radar detection, emergency calls, fighter emergency launch, requiring forced landing, and bomb warning. Once its own aircraft, land, or vessels are attacked, a defense war will be launched. However, territorial disputes still exist, as the zone is not recognised by Japan&#8217;s neighbors, Russia and China.

Background: Air Defense Identification Zones CCTV News - CNTV English


----------



## Pennywise

This is what we get by playing policemen to the world for the past 70 plus years. 

Crank up the war machine, times are going to be good for the Military Industrial Complex.


----------



## Vikrant

^ There is a difference between defending your ally and policing the world.


----------



## Pennywise

In theory, yes, but not in practice.


----------



## Unkotare

US, Japan Protest China Air Defense Zone


----------



## Unkotare

Pennywise said:


> This is what we get by playing policemen to the world for the past 70 plus years.





We haven't been doing that. Get a new bumper sticker for your VW van.


----------



## 3.14

Vikrant said:


> ^ There is a difference between defending your ally and policing the world.



No, there is not. We use allies as we police the world. Japan isn't our ally for no reason-we're their ally because we use their country to establish a military presence in Asia (so who's the real aggressor?).



Unkotare said:


> Pennywise said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what we get by playing policemen to the world for the past 70 plus years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't been doing that. Get a new bumper sticker for your VW van.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I also own a VW, and it's plastered with bumper stickers. Except that it only exists in your prejudices and imagination. And if the best label that you can apply mockingly is "hippie", then perhaps you should reconsider your beliefs, as they seem to oppose the ideal of moral, idealistic activism.

As for your claim that the US is not using its military to police other countries, this is either baseless denialism or an acknowledgement that it is an understatement to call American military a global police force. After all, in many cases, US military actions have not arisen out of a benevolent wish for peacekeeping, but to brutally force American interests onto other countries with their strong might. For example, the United States installed a brutal dictator and launched a bloody war, ostensibly for the freedom of the Vietnamese, in Vietnam to crush a communist revolution and establish Vietnam as part of a front to surround China militarily, and attempted an attack on Cuba after the revolutionary government seized the property of several American companies. And let's not forget what the United States did in Haiti in 2004, or in the Dominican Republic in 1965, or in Venezuela in 2002, or in innumerable weaker nations throughout its history-just because they could.


----------



## Unkotare

3.14 said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ There is a difference between defending your ally and policing the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, there is not. We use allies as we police the world. Japan isn't our ally for no reason-we're their ally because we use their country to establish a military presence in Asia (so who's the real aggressor?).
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pennywise said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what we get by playing policemen to the world for the past 70 plus years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't been doing that. Get a new bumper sticker for your VW van.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I also own a VW, and it's plastered with bumper stickers. Except that it only exists in your prejudices and imagination. And if the best label that you can apply mockingly is "hippie", then perhaps you should reconsider your beliefs, as they seem to oppose the ideal of moral, idealistic activism.
> 
> As for your claim that the US is not using its military to police other countries, this is either baseless denialism or an acknowledgement that it is an understatement to call American military a global police force. After all, in many cases, US military actions have not arisen out of a benevolent wish for peacekeeping, but to brutally force American interests onto other countries with their strong might. For example, the United States installed a brutal dictator and launched a bloody war, ostensibly for the freedom of the Vietnamese, in Vietnam to crush a communist revolution and establish Vietnam as part of a front to surround China militarily, and attempted an attack on Cuba after the revolutionary government seized the property of several American companies. And let's not forget what the United States did in Haiti in 2004, or in the Dominican Republic in 1965, or in Venezuela in 2002, or in innumerable weaker nations throughout its history-just because they could.
Click to expand...





Hey Moonbeam, if you want an audience for that kind of pot-fueled bullshit, take it to the Conspiracy Forum where they are prepared to humor your ilk.


----------



## Indeependent

Isn't China GM's ally?
No to mention over 25,000 other manufacturers?


----------



## Vikrant

3.14 said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ There is a difference between defending your ally and policing the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, there is not. We use allies as we police the world. Japan isn't our ally for no reason-we're their ally because we use their country to establish a military presence in Asia (so who's the real aggressor?).
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pennywise said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what we get by playing policemen to the world for the past 70 plus years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't been doing that. Get a new bumper sticker for your VW van.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I also own a VW, and it's plastered with bumper stickers. Except that it only exists in your prejudices and imagination. And if the best label that you can apply mockingly is "hippie", then perhaps you should reconsider your beliefs, as they seem to oppose the ideal of moral, idealistic activism.
> 
> As for your claim that the US is not using its military to police other countries, this is either baseless denialism or an acknowledgement that it is an understatement to call American military a global police force. After all, in many cases, US military actions have not arisen out of a benevolent wish for peacekeeping, but to brutally force American interests onto other countries with their strong might. For example, the United States installed a brutal dictator and launched a bloody war, ostensibly for the freedom of the Vietnamese, in Vietnam to crush a communist revolution and establish Vietnam as part of a front to surround China militarily, and attempted an attack on Cuba after the revolutionary government seized the property of several American companies. And let's not forget what the United States did in Haiti in 2004, or in the Dominican Republic in 1965, or in Venezuela in 2002, or in innumerable weaker nations throughout its history-just because they could.
Click to expand...


Your entire post was inconsistent. First you accuse the U.S. for its lack of benevolence. Then you accuse the U.S. of policing the world. The act of policing the entire world is a very benevolent act. Do you realize that?


----------



## Vikrant

*
China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, India And More, According To Pro-Government Chinese Newspaper
*

China's announcement last weekend of an Air Defense Identification Zone, which includes disputed areas of the East China Sea, has ratcheted up tensions between China and her neighbors, leading some to believe war is imminent.

The new air defense area includes the airspace above the hotly disputed cluster of tiny islands known as the Diaoyu to China and the Senkaku to the Japanese. International reaction to the ADIZ, particularly from Japan and its ally the U.S., has been uniformly defiant. In addition to official statements from Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, Reuters reported Tuesday that two U.S. military aircraft have flown around the disputed islands in direct defiance of China&#8217;s ADIZ.

&#8220;We have conducted operations in the area of the Senkakus,&#8221; spokesman Col. Steve Warren said, using the Japanese name for the islands. In addition to declaring the zone&#8217;s wide boundaries, Chinese military forces announced that all air travel in the designated ADIZ must be reported to avoid &#8220;emergency defensive measures in response.&#8221; The U.S. did the flyover without addressing the demands made by China. &#8220;We have continued to follow our normal procedures, which include not filing flight plans, not radioing ahead and not registering our frequencies,&#8221; Warren continued.

The new ADIZ has brought added tension to one of China&#8217;s several current territorial disputes. As pointed out in Shanghai-based news-blog, The Shanghaiist.com, earlier this summer, a particularly strident pro-government local newspaper, Weweipo, published a war-mongering article describing the &#8220;Six Wars China Is Sure to Fight In the Next 50 Years.&#8221; The article essentially predicts that most of China&#8217;s current border disputes will eventually lead to war.

China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, India And More, According To Pro-Government Chinese Newspaper


----------



## 3.14

Unkotare said:


> 3.14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ There is a difference between defending your ally and policing the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, there is not. We use allies as we police the world. Japan isn't our ally for no reason-we're their ally because we use their country to establish a military presence in Asia (so who's the real aggressor?).
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't been doing that. Get a new bumper sticker for your VW van.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I also own a VW, and it's plastered with bumper stickers. Except that it only exists in your prejudices and imagination. And if the best label that you can apply mockingly is "hippie", then perhaps you should reconsider your beliefs, as they seem to oppose the ideal of moral, idealistic activism.
> 
> As for your claim that the US is not using its military to police other countries, this is either baseless denialism or an acknowledgement that it is an understatement to call American military a global police force. After all, in many cases, US military actions have not arisen out of a benevolent wish for peacekeeping, but to brutally force American interests onto other countries with their strong might. For example, the United States installed a brutal dictator and launched a bloody war, ostensibly for the freedom of the Vietnamese, in Vietnam to crush a communist revolution and establish Vietnam as part of a front to surround China militarily, and attempted an attack on Cuba after the revolutionary government seized the property of several American companies. And let's not forget what the United States did in Haiti in 2004, or in the Dominican Republic in 1965, or in Venezuela in 2002, or in innumerable weaker nations throughout its history-just because they could.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Moonbeam, if you want an audience for that kind of pot-fueled bullshit, take it to the Conspiracy Forum where they are prepared to humor your ilk.
Click to expand...


I do not understand how what I wrote was "pot-fueled bullshit". You probably were incredibly angered when you encountered viewpoints that so starkly challenged your own, and then let your emotions take over, beyond the point of trying to understand my reasoning. These vague negative prejudices, formed to rationalize your narrow-minded, intolerant rage, are groundless, especially considering that I took the time to support and explain my perspective.

Now, it was not respectable to post that immature rant that you know will only be effective because other people share your views, because you simply are angry at me for my opinions, while you have actually written something truly ridiculous-the complete denial of American military actions ("B.S.", as you'd say) . Use of the mob, how crude. 

Specifically, your claim that I "want an audience" was scathing, but not true. Perhaps you were irritated by how my post was written out, strengthened by your dislike of my dissent, which contrasted against the other posts. However, I was not writing immature remarks, but was using legitimate arguments, and therefore was responsibly exercising my right to free speech, just like the other people on this thread. Thus, if you wish to criticize me for being motivated by a desire to get attention, which is actually just an imagined prejudice formed to alienate my beliefs, which were no different in nature than the other comments, then every other person who wrote here may as well stop posting.

Finally, I am aware that you have snapped like this before, so you should know that rudeness does not elevate you. You may gain some support by aggressively suppressing disagreement, but anyone can be rude-only a few cannot restrain themselves. Stop showing off your crudeness and idiocy.



Vikrant said:


> Your entire post was inconsistent. First you accuse the U.S. for its lack of benevolence. Then you accuse the U.S. of policing the world. The act of policing the entire world is a very benevolent act. Do you realize that?



There was no inconsistency in my post-even when I passingly used the term "police" to rephrase your words, I stated that America's militarism was motivated by their own selfish desires. In no part of the paragraph where I referred to the US as a "police" force did I suggest that this was motivated by benevolence. 

Then I repeated that the United States was driven by self-serving motives, or, as you euphemistically say, "a lack of benevolence", and provided many examples to support this. You claim that the act of policing the world was benevolent, and this is why I stated that referring to America as a police force is inaccurate.

Speaking of inconsistency, you denied that the United States was policing the world in a previous post, but now you are acknowledging that the United States is a police force, which you inexplicably refer to as "benevolent". Much like your posting pal Unkotare, the words you use against me apply to yourself more accurately.

I notice that you and Unkotare both are good at avoiding actual debate by stalling the discussion with inappropriate distractions. At best, this shows that you simply do not know how to argue.



Vikrant said:


> *
> China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, India And More, According To Pro-Government Chinese Newspaper
> *
> 
> China's announcement last weekend of an Air Defense Identification Zone, which includes disputed areas of the East China Sea, has ratcheted up tensions between China and her neighbors, leading some to believe war is imminent.
> 
> The new air defense area includes the airspace above the hotly disputed cluster of tiny islands known as the Diaoyu to China and the Senkaku to the Japanese. International reaction to the ADIZ, particularly from Japan and its ally the U.S., has been uniformly defiant. In addition to official statements from Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, Reuters reported Tuesday that two U.S. military aircraft have flown around the disputed islands in direct defiance of China&#8217;s ADIZ.
> 
> &#8220;We have conducted operations in the area of the Senkakus,&#8221; spokesman Col. Steve Warren said, using the Japanese name for the islands. In addition to declaring the zone&#8217;s wide boundaries, Chinese military forces announced that all air travel in the designated ADIZ must be reported to avoid &#8220;emergency defensive measures in response.&#8221; The U.S. did the flyover without addressing the demands made by China. &#8220;We have continued to follow our normal procedures, which include not filing flight plans, not radioing ahead and not registering our frequencies,&#8221; Warren continued.
> 
> The new ADIZ has brought added tension to one of China&#8217;s several current territorial disputes. As pointed out in Shanghai-based news-blog, The Shanghaiist.com, earlier this summer, a particularly strident pro-government local newspaper, Weweipo, published a war-mongering article describing the &#8220;Six Wars China Is Sure to Fight In the Next 50 Years.&#8221; The article essentially predicts that most of China&#8217;s current border disputes will eventually lead to war.
> 
> China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, India And More, According To Pro-Government Chinese Newspaper



Calling this newspaper "pro-government", although true, is misleading. While the civilian press in China is controlled, this is only performed against dissident publications. China generally does not use resources for controlling the pro-government press. There are some independent journalists in China, so this publication may well be a private, radically nationalist publication. You cannot prove that this reflects the views of the Chinese government, in other words. You were probably quoting the views of some normal Chinese citizens, who cannot represent the true motives of the Chinese government.

You quoted these civilians because you wanted to give the erroneous impression that China is the aggressor, which makes American military presence in Asia seem justified, even though you do not even know if the Chinese government is actually making these aggressive statements-and they probably weren't. Anyone who uses common sense would probably conclude that this far-fetched and extremely dangerous fantasy was probably conjured by an unthinking, overpatriotic person. It would not be in the interest of the Chinese government to provoke this extreme war fever, because China's military is still relatively weak, with their military budget one-sixth that of the United States, without the advantageous military presence that is maintained around China. And note that a war with the US would be destructive in any case, as China is still economically dependent on the United States, the latter being one of China's greatest trading partners. You basically tried to tricked us, Vikrant. What does this prove about the Chinese government's agenda? You've only proven that there are some extreme opinions in China, which is inevitable in any society.


----------



## Indofred

Vikrant said:


> It looks like China is acting rogue.



The Islands are disputed between China and Japan and are local to both countries.
I can see why they're in dispute and hope it can be talked out.

America is a ocean away from these islands so what the hell are your idiot government up to, flying B52s over them and inviting even further escalation and potentially causing a war, maybe localised, maybe not?

China and Japan are after the fishing rights and probably oil deposits.
This has sod all to do with America.


----------



## Politico

3.14 said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ There is a difference between defending your ally and policing the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, there is not. We use allies as we police the world. Japan isn't our ally for no reason-we're their ally because we use their country to establish a military presence in Asia (so who's the real aggressor?).
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pennywise said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what we get by playing policemen to the world for the past 70 plus years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't been doing that. Get a new bumper sticker for your VW van.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I also own a VW, and it's plastered with bumper stickers. Except that it only exists in your prejudices and imagination. And if the best label that you can apply mockingly is "hippie", then perhaps you should reconsider your beliefs, as they seem to oppose the ideal of moral, idealistic activism.
> 
> As for your claim that the US is not using its military to police other countries, this is either baseless denialism or an acknowledgement that it is an understatement to call American military a global police force. After all, in many cases, US military actions have not arisen out of a benevolent wish for peacekeeping, but to brutally force American interests onto other countries with their strong might. For example, the United States installed a brutal dictator and launched a bloody war, ostensibly for the freedom of the Vietnamese, in Vietnam to crush a communist revolution and establish Vietnam as part of a front to surround China militarily, and attempted an attack on Cuba after the revolutionary government seized the property of several American companies. And let's not forget what the United States did in Haiti in 2004, or in the Dominican Republic in 1965, or in Venezuela in 2002, or in innumerable weaker nations throughout its history-just because they could.
Click to expand...


None of that surprises me at all lol.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> America is a ocean away from these islands .




No, we're not. Our allies are not. Our interests, and those of much of the world, are not. 


Take off your 'Hate America' blinders, drama queen.


----------



## Unkotare

3.14 said:


> I do not understand how what I wrote was "pot-fueled bullshit". You probably were incredibly angered when you encountered viewpoints that so starkly challenged your own, .





I wouldn't expect an mindless pothead to understand much of anything. Your 'viewpoints' were not a 'stark challenge,' they were the same old trite nonsense that ignorant, anti-American idiots like you have been thoughtlessly mouthing for years. Fortunately for you and everyone else, insignificant fools like you remain utterly irrelevant. Your betters will work on these problems despite the inaudible screaming of gnats like you.


----------



## Unkotare

Japanese flying through China air defense zone defiant | Reuters


----------



## Unkotare

WRAPUP 1-Japan, S.Korean military planes defy China's new defence zone | Reuters



Looks like everyone is giving China the finger and flying right through 'their' "air defense zone." 

Beijing is gonna end up losing face on this gambit big time.


----------



## Unkotare

Here we go:

http://mail.aol.com/38203-112/aol-6/en-us/Suite.aspx


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> America is a ocean away from these islands .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, we're not. Our allies are not. Our interests, and those of much of the world, are not.
> 
> Take off your 'Hate America' blinders, drama queen.
Click to expand...








North America, the green bit, has a large blue thing between it and Japan, the little red bit.
The blue thing is the Pacific ocean, it's about 6,000 miles wide.

Jesus Christ on a pair of lollipop sticks; don't post uneducated shit, please.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> America is a ocean away from these islands .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, we're not. Our allies are not. Our interests, and those of much of the world, are not.
> 
> Take off your 'Hate America' blinders, drama queen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North America, the green bit, has a large blue thing between it and Japan, the little red bit.
> The blue thing is the Pacific ocean, it's about 6,000 miles wide.
> 
> Jesus Christ on a pair of lollipop sticks; don't post uneducated shit, please.
Click to expand...



You need a better map. Yours left out Hawaii, Guam and American Samoa, you uneducated shit.


----------



## Indofred

So. we now have America and American allies, flying military aircraft into disputed airspace and Chinese fighters on patrol.

This could so easily turn very nasty when it could simply be talked out.

America is being really stupid here, entering a battle that has nothing to do with America as such, more a resource war, based on trying to deny oil and/or gas to China so you can grab it yourselves.

What, didn't you bother to find out?
There are massive gas fields off the islands and America and China are both after resources to power their industry.

How China took control of Ecuador?s oil | Financial Post

The difference is, communist china does it through harsh capitalist business dealings, but capitalist America does it with military power.

In the past, America's oil greed has been secured by overthrowing government (Iran) and killing loads of people in wars they could easily win.
This times, they're facing off against a massive military power and that's pure stupidity.
This could so easily lead to something very nasty.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> America is being really stupid here, entering a battle that has nothing to do with America as such, .




It has a great deal to do with America, in several important ways.


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, we're not. Our allies are not. Our interests, and those of much of the world, are not.
> 
> Take off your 'Hate America' blinders, drama queen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North America, the green bit, has a large blue thing between it and Japan, the little red bit.
> The blue thing is the Pacific ocean, it's about 6,000 miles wide.
> 
> Jesus Christ on a pair of lollipop sticks; don't post uneducated shit, please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You need a better map. Yours left out Hawaii, Guam and American Samoa, you uneducated shit.
Click to expand...


Unincorporated territories

American Samoa is about 5,000 miles from Japan
Guam is about 1,600 miles from Japan

I didn't think either help very much, save to prove, you have no fucking clue.


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> America is being really stupid here, entering a battle that has nothing to do with America as such, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has a great deal to do with America, in several important ways.
Click to expand...


List them.


----------



## Indofred

Shit, I totally forgot the American occupied lands of Hawaii, that's the one you invaded, removed the rulers off and occupied in 1893.

Hawaii is about 4,000 miles away from Japan.

Next door ...... if you're a moronic pillock.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Guam is about 1,600 miles from Japan.




Which is not much more than the distance of Okinawa to Tokyo. Idiot.


America is there, and American interests and allies are very much involved. Idiot.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Shit, I totally forgot the American occupied lands of Hawaii, .




You forgot one of the great states of our Union because you are an anti-American fool.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> America is being really stupid here, entering a battle that has nothing to do with America as such, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has a great deal to do with America, in several important ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> List them.
Click to expand...



- American territory

- Shipping lanes vital to the WORLD economy

- Some of our most important allies and obligations

- A check on China's growing ambitions and capabilities

- The US economy

- Peace and security in the region


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shit, I totally forgot the American occupied lands of Hawaii, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot one of the great states of our Union because you are an anti-American fool.
Click to expand...


Actually, I forgot an occupied land.
Please explain how invasion, removal of a legitimate government and forcing your population on the local population makes it a great state.

You can't because there's no justification for it.


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guam is about 1,600 miles from Japan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is not much more than the distance of Okinawa to Tokyo. Idiot.
> 
> 
> America is there, and American interests and allies are very much involved. Idiot.
Click to expand...


In the late 1800s, America decided it wanted in on the action in Cuba. It forced a war against Spain, the colonial power of the time.

As part of this war, America extended the field of conflict to various islands it had it's greedy eyes on.
Guam, as a result of American interference in Cuba and the forcing of that short war, became American.

Even if we ignore the fact, you guys invaded and took the island in war, we can take the UN rules into consideration.

UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA



> Article3
> 
> Breadth of the territorial sea
> 
> Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.



!2 miles; I think the disputed islands are a tad further than that.

As I said, America should keep its fucking fat nose out and leave this to local powers, preferably in an international court, not wade in like John fucking Wayne in yet another oil grab, this time with a potentially heavy price.


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has a great deal to do with America, in several important ways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> - American territory
> 
> - Shipping lanes vital to the WORLD economy
> 
> - Some of our most important allies and obligations
> 
> - A check on China's growing ambitions and capabilities
> 
> - The US economy
> 
> - Peace and security in the region
Click to expand...


No American lands anywhere near the place as you full well know and I have detailed.

The shipping lanes effect HK, Japan, China and other local countries (Most of them, victims of American aggression) - none are anywhere near America.

Allies? the ones who attacked Pearl harbour in American occupied Hawaii?





China's ambitions?
Yesus, are you fucking mad? America has effected far more of the world than China has ever managed. The difference is, China does it with trade, you fuckers do it with mass murder. Ask the people of the region, say in Vietnam or Cambodia.

The U.S. economy is correct. You have a massive thirst for oil, as does China, but you murder while they trade for oil. I rather prefer the capitalist over the colonialist.
China has never bombed Indonesia.

Peace and security - What like you brought to Iran, Afghanistan, Palestine and so on?

America sticking its fat nose in is exactly what is most likely to start a conflict.
If America should start yet another war, I'd rather like to you lose in a massive way.
The burning of the white house would be nice, as we did when you attacked us in Canada.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shit, I totally forgot the American occupied lands of Hawaii, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot one of the great states of our Union because you are an anti-American fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, I forgot an occupied land..
Click to expand...



No, you forgot one of the great states of our Union, fool. A state that entered the Union after *94%* of its citizens voted to do so, fool.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> As I said, America should keep its fucking fat nose out and leave this to local powers




We are a "local power" regarding this issue. _You_ should keep _your_ fucking fat nose out of the affairs of your betters, you irrelevant little gnat.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> List them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - American territory
> 
> - Shipping lanes vital to the WORLD economy
> 
> - Some of our most important allies and obligations
> 
> - A check on China's growing ambitions and capabilities
> 
> - The US economy
> 
> - Peace and security in the region
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No American lands anywhere near the place as you full well know and I have detailed..
Click to expand...




There _are_, as I have detailed.


----------



## eagle1462010

YAWN...............

Welcome to the BS of Cold War Strategies........................

We are facing off with China on the high seas...................

Eyeball to eyeball, staring each other seeing who will blink first.............

It needs a theme song..............


Chinese military aims for global | ASEAN Digest

As we conduct joint exercises in Hawaii............

LOL  Hasn't changed much.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> The shipping lanes effect HK, Japan, China and other local countries (Most of them, victims of American aggression) - none are anywhere near America..




Even you can't be this stupid. You just can't.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Allies? the ones who attacked Pearl harbour .





Yes, allies. Some of our closest and most important allies. 





Btw, WWII ended almost 70 years ago, fool.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> China's ambitions?.




Yes, China's ambitions. Pull your head out of your ass and look around once in a while, you ignorant douche. Your impotent anti-Americanism has completely blinded you.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> The U.S. economy is correct. You have a massive thirst for oil, .





There is far more than oil involved, you ignorant douche.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Peace and security - What like you brought to Iran, Afghanistan, Palestine and so on?.





Like we have ensured for much of the world for the last 50 years or so, you ignorant douche.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> If America should start yet another war, I'd rather like to you lose in a massive way.
> The burning of the white house would be nice, as we did when you attacked us in Canada.





You'd like to, because you are a spiteful, impotent little anti-American insect. You won't get to.


And the War of 1812 was not against Canada, you ignorant douche.


----------



## Vikrant

It is about time the world started confronting Chinese hegemony. Chinese expansionism is a threat to world peace. They are engaged in confrontation with pretty much all of their neighbors. People are getting tired of Chinese pulling out these ancient maps from their rear and claiming anything they want as theirs. The next defining point in the history will be when the good countries of the world will come together to deliver justice to Tibetans.


----------



## Unkotare

China scrambles jets after US, Japan enter air zone?Xinhua | Inquirer Global Nation

"But Beijing is facing considerable internal pressure to assert itself. China&#8217;s state media called Friday for &#8220;timely countermeasures without hesitation&#8221; if Japan violates the zone.
Washington has security alliances with both Tokyo and Seoul, and analysts say that neither China nor Japan&#8212;the world&#8217;s second- and third-biggest economies, and major trading partners of each other&#8212;want to engage in armed conflict."


----------



## ThirdTerm

China's new air-defence identification zone looks menacingly like China's "living space" or Lebensraum over the East China Sea. In the South China Sea, China has backed the Philippines away from several contested reefs and shoals by sending waves of increasingly powerful vessels to the area and Japan must not lose this Cold War confrontation by backing down. Japan recently purchased 40 F-35s from Lockheed Martin and those high-tech fighter jets could be deployed to patrol the contested zone and the country needs to take any necessary measures that stop short of war to challenge China's roguish behaviour.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wah81KsFzkA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wah81KsFzkA[/ame]


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot one of the great states of our Union because you are an anti-American fool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I forgot an occupied land..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, you forgot one of the great states of our Union, fool. A state that entered the Union after *94%* of its citizens voted to do so, fool.
Click to expand...


American citizens that moved onto the island after the American invasion; not the people of Hawaii.
basically, you stuck a load of military on the island, gave them voting rights as if they were in America and voted yourselves into joining the union.

A bit of a cheat.


----------



## Indofred

Vikrant said:


> It is about time the world started confronting Chinese hegemony. Chinese expansionism is a threat to world peace. They are engaged in confrontation with pretty much all of their neighbors. People are getting tired of Chinese pulling out these ancient maps from their rear and claiming anything they want as theirs. The next defining point in the history will be when the good countries of the world will come together to deliver justice to Tibetans.



China has one aircraft carrier; how many does america have?
China has invaded and taken over Tibet; how many countries has America invaded since 1945?
China has no battle fleets near America at the moment and has never flown over lands claimed by America since it attacked American occupied Hawaii.
How many countries has America bombed/invaded/removed governments in  since 1945?

I think you may have this the wrong way around.
America has murdered by the million since WWII, all as part of its expansionist policy.


----------



## Vikrant

*
U.S. airlines advised to give China flight plans over new defence zone
*

(Reuters) - The United States advised its commercial airlines to notify Chinese authorities of flight plans when travelling through an air defence zone that Beijing established a week ago over the East China Sea, ratcheting up regional tensions.

The United States said it expected U.S. carriers to operate in line with so-called notices to airmen issued by foreign countries, adding, however, that the decision did "not indicate U.S. government acceptance of China's requirements.

The advice is in contrast with America's close ally Japan, where the two major airlines have agreed with the Japanese government to fly through the zone without notifying China.

Beijing wants foreign aircraft passing through the zone - including passenger planes - to identify themselves to Chinese authorities.

A U.S. administration official said China's action appeared to be a unilateral attempt to change the status quo in the East China Sea, which could "increase the risk of miscalculation, confrontation and accidents".

"We urge the Chinese to exercise caution and restraint, and we are consulting with Japan and other affected parties throughout the region," the official said.

The zone includes skies over islands at the heart of a tense territorial dispute between Japan and China and represents a historic challenge by the emerging new world power to the United States, which has dominated the region for decades.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden is due to visit China, Japan and South Korea next week, and will try to ease tensions over the issue, senior U.S. officials said.

Defying China's declaration of the air defence zone, the United States, Japan and South Korea flew military aircraft through the area this week without informing Beijing.

On Friday, China scrambled jets after two U.S. spy planes and 10 Japanese aircraft, including F-15 fighters, entered the zone, China's state news agency Xinhua said. The jets were scrambled for effective monitoring, it quoted air force spokesman Shen Jinke as saying.

The Chinese patrol mission, conducted on Thursday, was "a defensive measure and in line with international common practices", Shen said, according to Xinhua.

"China's air force is on high alert and will take measures to deal with diverse air threats to firmly protect the security of the country's airspace," he said.

However, Defence Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said it was "incorrect" to suggest China would shoot down aircraft which entered the zone without first identifying themselves. He did not elaborate.

U.S. flights were "routinely" transiting the zone, U.S. officials said on Friday. Flights this week included a training mission for two unarmed B-52 bombers.

"These flights are consistent with long standing and well known U.S. freedom of navigation policies," Pentagon spokesman Colonel Steve Warren said. "I can confirm that the U.S. has and will continue to operate in the area as normal."

A U.S. defence official said the routine operations included reconnaissance and surveillance flights.

STRAINED TIES

In a further sign of Tokyo's defiance, Japanese carriers ANA Holdings (9202.T) and Japan Airlines (9201.T) have flown through the zone without informing China. Neither airline experienced any problems.

The airlines said they were sticking with that policy even after Washington advised U.S. commercial airlines to notify China when they fly through the zone, although an ANA spokesman said his airline would follow whatever advice the government provided.

China's Foreign Ministry said on Thursday there had been no impact on the safe operation of international civilian flights since the zone had come into force, although China "hoped" airlines would co-operate.

Ties between China and Japan have been strained for months by the dispute over the islands, called the Diaoyu by China and the Senkaku by Japan.

Mutual mistrust over military intentions and what China feels is Japan's lack of contrition over its brutal occupation of parts of China before, and during, World War Two have added to tension.

"It's important for both sides to take a calm approach and deal with the situation according to international norms," Japan's Defence Minister, Itsunori Onodera, told state broadcaster NHK on Saturday. Onodera said the Japanese military had not noted any Chinese aircraft in the zone.

Although Washington takes no position on the sovereignty of the islands, it recognises Tokyo's administrative control and says the U.S.-Japan security pact applies to them.

Europe's top diplomat, Catherine Ashton, said the European Union was concerned about China's decision to establish the new air defence zone as well as its announcement of "emergency defence measures" if other parties did not comply.

"This development heightens the risk of escalation and contributes to raising tensions in the region," Ashton said. "The EU calls on all sides to exercise caution and restraint."

CRITICISM

China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang criticised Ashton's remarks, saying China hoped the EU could treat the situation "objectively and rationally".

"Actually, Madam Ashton should know that some European countries also have air defence identification zones," Qin said. "I don't know if this leads to tensions in the European regional situation. European countries can have air defence identification zones. Why can't China?"

Although there are concerns over the increased tensions, the United States and China have stepped up military communication in recent years to avoid accidental clashes.

The Global Times, an influential tabloid published by the ruling Communist Party's official People's Daily newspaper, praised the government for its calm response in the face of "provocations", saying China would not target the United States in the zone as long as it "does not go too far".

But it warned Japan it could expect a robust response if it continued to fly military aircraft in the zone.

"If the trend continues, there will likely be frictions and confrontations and even a collision in the air ... It is therefore an urgent task for China to further train its air force to make full preparation for potential conflicts," it wrote in an editorial on Friday.

(Additional reporting by Phil Stewart in Washington and Sui-Lee Wee, Michael Martina and Paul Carsten in Beijing; Writing by Neil Fullick; Editing by Clarence Fernandez)

U.S. airlines advised to give China flight plans over new defence zone | Reuters


----------



## Vikrant

Indofred said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is about time the world started confronting Chinese hegemony. Chinese expansionism is a threat to world peace. They are engaged in confrontation with pretty much all of their neighbors. People are getting tired of Chinese pulling out these ancient maps from their rear and claiming anything they want as theirs. The next defining point in the history will be when the good countries of the world will come together to deliver justice to Tibetans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China has one aircraft carrier; how many does america have?
> China has invaded and taken over Tibet; how many countries has America invaded since 1945?
> China has no battle fleets near America at the moment and has never flown over lands claimed by America since it attacked American occupied Hawaii.
> How many countries has America bombed/invaded/removed governments in  since 1945?
> 
> I think you may have this the wrong way around.
> America has murdered by the million since WWII, all as part of its expansionist policy.
Click to expand...


Nothing that the US has done comes even close to what China has done in Tibet. You have to be a blind person to state otherwise. If China had the kind of military and economy the US has, the whole world would be in deep trouble.


----------



## R.C. Christian

Part of U.S. foreign policy is the China pivot. This is a response to it. I wouldn't worry much about it. China in no way capable of competing with the combined Naval superiority of the U.S. and our proxy in Japan who, in case you haven't noticed, has awakened from it's pacifist slumber and is no longer willing to take shit from communist dogs. China can go fuck itself. This is a rare piece of U.S. foreign policy that I support.


----------



## Indofred

Vikrant said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is about time the world started confronting Chinese hegemony. Chinese expansionism is a threat to world peace. They are engaged in confrontation with pretty much all of their neighbors. People are getting tired of Chinese pulling out these ancient maps from their rear and claiming anything they want as theirs. The next defining point in the history will be when the good countries of the world will come together to deliver justice to Tibetans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China has one aircraft carrier; how many does america have?
> China has invaded and taken over Tibet; how many countries has America invaded since 1945?
> China has no battle fleets near America at the moment and has never flown over lands claimed by America since it attacked American occupied Hawaii.
> How many countries has America bombed/invaded/removed governments in  since 1945?
> 
> I think you may have this the wrong way around.
> America has murdered by the million since WWII, all as part of its expansionist policy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing that the US has done comes even close to what China has done in Tibet. You have to be a blind person to state otherwise. If China had the kind of military and economy the US has, the whole world would be in deep trouble.
Click to expand...


HAWAII	1893 (-?)	Naval, troops	Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.

CHICAGO	1894	Troops	Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.

PHILIPPINES	1898-1910 (-?)	Naval, troops	Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos

PANAMA	1908	Troops	Marines intervene in election contest.

COLORADO	1914	Troops	Breaking of miners' strike by Army.

HONDURAS	1919	Troops	Marines land during election campaign.

WEST VIRGINIA	1920-21	Troops, bombing	Army intervenes against mineworkers.

WASHINGTON DC	1932	Troops	Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.

DETROIT	1943	Troops	Army put down Black rebellion.

GREECE	1947-49	Command operation	U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.

IRAN	1953	Command Operation	CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.

VIETNAM	l960-75	Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats	Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.

IRAQ	1963	Command operation	CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.

PANAMA	l964	Troops	Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.

INDONESIA	l965	Command operation	Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC	1965-66	Troops, bombing	Army & Marines land during election campaign.

DETROIT	l967	Troops	Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.

CAMBODIA	l969-75	Bombing, troops, naval	Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.

OMAN	l970	Command operation	U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.

LAOS	l971-73	Command operation, bombing	U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.

That'll do for the moment.
Between carpet bombing civilian populations, murdering your own people and interfering in elections by invading when it looks like your pal will lose, I'd say that's pretty bad.
Putting Saddam in power was probably one of the biggest fuck ups.

Of course, no one in America much likes to talk about that so you may not be aware of it.
Now, about China and Tibet. Are they worse than America?


----------



## Sally

Indofred said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> China has one aircraft carrier; how many does america have?
> China has invaded and taken over Tibet; how many countries has America invaded since 1945?
> China has no battle fleets near America at the moment and has never flown over lands claimed by America since it attacked American occupied Hawaii.
> How many countries has America bombed/invaded/removed governments in  since 1945?
> 
> I think you may have this the wrong way around.
> America has murdered by the million since WWII, all as part of its expansionist policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing that the US has done comes even close to what China has done in Tibet. You have to be a blind person to state otherwise. If China had the kind of military and economy the US has, the whole world would be in deep trouble.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> HAWAII	1893 (-?)	Naval, troops	Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
> 
> CHICAGO	1894	Troops	Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
> 
> PHILIPPINES	1898-1910 (-?)	Naval, troops	Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
> 
> PANAMA	1908	Troops	Marines intervene in election contest.
> 
> COLORADO	1914	Troops	Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
> 
> HONDURAS	1919	Troops	Marines land during election campaign.
> 
> WEST VIRGINIA	1920-21	Troops, bombing	Army intervenes against mineworkers.
> 
> WASHINGTON DC	1932	Troops	Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
> 
> DETROIT	1943	Troops	Army put down Black rebellion.
> 
> GREECE	1947-49	Command operation	U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
> 
> IRAN	1953	Command Operation	CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
> 
> VIETNAM	l960-75	Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats	Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
> 
> IRAQ	1963	Command operation	CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
> 
> PANAMA	l964	Troops	Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
> 
> INDONESIA	l965	Command operation	Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
> 
> DOMINICAN REPUBLIC	1965-66	Troops, bombing	Army & Marines land during election campaign.
> 
> DETROIT	l967	Troops	Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
> 
> CAMBODIA	l969-75	Bombing, troops, naval	Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
> 
> OMAN	l970	Command operation	U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
> 
> LAOS	l971-73	Command operation, bombing	U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
> 
> That'll do for the moment.
> Between carpet bombing civilian populations, murdering your own people and interfering in elections by invading when it looks like your pal will lose, I'd say that's pretty bad.
> Putting Saddam in power was probably one of the biggest fuck ups.
> 
> Of course, no one in America much likes to talk about that so you may not be aware of it.
> Now, about China and Tibet. Are they worse than America?
Click to expand...


Fred, do Muslims like you ever talk about the millions who have been murdered by Muslims, or is that something  you keep under the covers?


----------



## Indofred

My point is about American expansionism.
Either answer that or don't bother.

As for your off topic post; start a thread.

Now, how do you excuse the American threat to China and do you  condone America's long history of violence, removing elected governments, using troops to murder its own people and invading foreign countries.

This aggression against China is just one more example in a long list of American crimes against other nations.


----------



## Indofred

I'm assured (by the foolish), China has an evil expansionist policy but America does not.

I think that might well be a load of old bollocks.
Here are America's military bases.







Then, just for fun, toss in CIA and other intelligence networks.






Pretty much all over the world but, as I'm assured there is no expansionism, I'm sure they're there to conduct kids' parties and karaoke evenings.

And a little close up of that bit of Asia.






Perhaps, if China is guilty of evil expansionism, you can post maps of Chinese military bases outside China. There are a few but not even close to as many as war like America has.

America, as usual, is using muscle to try to force its way into oil deposits and this island dispute is just another example of America being the colonial power it is.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I forgot an occupied land..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you forgot one of the great states of our Union, fool. A state that entered the Union after *94%* of its citizens voted to do so, fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> American citizens that moved onto the island after the American invasion; not the people of Hawaii.
> basically, you stuck a load of military on the island, gave them voting rights as if they were in America and voted yourselves into joining the union.
> 
> A bit of a cheat.
Click to expand...



The vast majority of native Hawaiians also voted for statehood, you ignorant shit.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> China has invaded and taken over Tibet; how many countries has America invaded since 1945?




To incorporate their territory into the United States against the will of the people? None, you ignorant shit.


----------



## Unkotare

Vikrant said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is about time the world started confronting Chinese hegemony. Chinese expansionism is a threat to world peace. They are engaged in confrontation with pretty much all of their neighbors. People are getting tired of Chinese pulling out these ancient maps from their rear and claiming anything they want as theirs. The next defining point in the history will be when the good countries of the world will come together to deliver justice to Tibetans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China has one aircraft carrier; how many does america have?
> China has invaded and taken over Tibet; how many countries has America invaded since 1945?
> China has no battle fleets near America at the moment and has never flown over lands claimed by America since it attacked American occupied Hawaii.
> How many countries has America bombed/invaded/removed governments in  since 1945?
> 
> I think you may have this the wrong way around.
> America has murdered by the million since WWII, all as part of its expansionist policy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing that the US has done comes even close to what China has done in Tibet. You have to be a blind person to state otherwise. If China had the kind of military and economy the US has, the whole world would be in deep trouble.
Click to expand...




And idiots like freddy there wouldn't realize it until it was too late.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> My point is about American expansionism..




Then you have no point.


----------



## Vikrant

Unkotare said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> China has one aircraft carrier; how many does america have?
> China has invaded and taken over Tibet; how many countries has America invaded since 1945?
> China has no battle fleets near America at the moment and has never flown over lands claimed by America since it attacked American occupied Hawaii.
> How many countries has America bombed/invaded/removed governments in  since 1945?
> 
> I think you may have this the wrong way around.
> America has murdered by the million since WWII, all as part of its expansionist policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing that the US has done comes even close to what China has done in Tibet. You have to be a blind person to state otherwise. If China had the kind of military and economy the US has, the whole world would be in deep trouble.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And idiots like freddy there wouldn't realize it until it was too late.
Click to expand...


He just lacks perspective. He is comparing US wars against colonial powers like Spain to Chinese genocide in Tibet. US presence in Philippines was not a unilateral decision of the US government. It was a mutual agreement and the US got out as soon as Philippine government asked to. Look at what happened after the US left. China started strong arming Philippines. I have posted quite a bit about it at the height of China - Philippine confrontation in Asia thread. Guess who Philippine turned to for help? The United States. 

It was a very unwise decision for the Philippines to close US bases on their soil. I wanted to add one more thing: The United States and Japan were on the forefront of helping Philippines during recent typhoon crisis not China.


----------



## Unkotare

Vikrant said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing that the US has done comes even close to what China has done in Tibet. You have to be a blind person to state otherwise. If China had the kind of military and economy the US has, the whole world would be in deep trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And idiots like freddy there wouldn't realize it until it was too late.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He just lacks perspective. He is comparing US wars against colonial powers like Spain to Chinese genocide in Tibet. US presence in Philippines was not a unilateral decision of the US government. It was a mutual agreement and the US got out as soon as Philippine government asked to. Look at what happened after the US left. China started strong arming Philippines. I have posted quite a bit about it at the height of China - Philippine confrontation in Asia thread. Guess who Philippine turned to for help? The United States.
> 
> It was a very unwise decision for the Philippines to close US bases on their soil. I wanted to add one more thing: The United States and Japan were on the forefront of helping Philippines during recent typhoon crisis not China.
Click to expand...




Excellent points all.


----------



## Vikrant

OSAKA &#8211; When U.S. Vice President Joe Biden arrives in Japan on Monday to start a three-nation tour that will also take him to South Korea and China, his most urgent task will be to assure Prime Minister Shinzo Abe that the U.S. stands firmly against China&#8217;s new air defense identification zone, which encompasses the Senkaku Islands, even as he prods Tokyo to help ease tensions with Beijing.

It&#8217;s an important visit for the longer term as well. Biden faces the further challenge of convincing Tokyo, Seoul and Beijing that the Obama administration&#8217;s touted pivot to Asia won&#8217;t fail due to budget constraints in Washington that will likely impact the U.S. military presence in the region or to growing skepticism in Congress regarding the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade agreement.

Though previous U.S. administrations emphasized Asia, the idea of a U.S. pivot, shift or rebalance dates back to autumn 2011, when the Obama administration announced that as wars in Afghanistan and Iraq wind down, U.S. military assets would be relocated to the Asia-Pacific region. In August 2012, Ashton Carter, deputy secretary of defense, offered specific examples of what a rebalance would look like.

&#8220;We intend to have 60 percent of our naval assets based in the Pacific by 2020. We will have a net increase of one aircraft carrier, four destroyers, three Zumwalt destroyers, 10 littoral combat ships and two submarines in the Pacific in the coming years,&#8221; Carter said.

In addition, B-1 bombers and reconnaissance planes, manned and unmanned, would be relocated to the Pacific. But amid speculation of a reduction in the number of army personnel or major shifts around Asia of marines in the coming years, Carter said only that the army in South Korea would be protected from budget changes and that there would be no reduction in the Marine Corps&#8217; presence west of the international date line.

That was the plan. But with the passage of the Budget Control Act in 2011, the Pentagon must cut a total of $500 billion over a 10-year period, unless Congress can reach a deal that reverses some of the planned military reductions.

Congress has until the end of this month to reach agreement on stopping the latest round of defense cuts &#8212; worth $19 billion &#8212; that are set to start in January. Under the 2011 act, the size of budget cuts is expected to rise substantially from about 2015 onward.

In August, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that in the worst-case scenario the army would be reduced by 380,000 troops and the marines from just under 200,000 to 150,000. Pentagon officials admit that it would be very challenging to maintain current Asia rebalancing plans in that case.

Administration officials from President Barack Obama on downhave rushed to reassure Asian allies, including Japan and South Korea, that the budget problems in Washington will not affect America&#8217;s military commitment to the region. Biden will likely make similar noises to Abe on Monday.

The other part of the U.S. rebalance to Asia is the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement. On Dec. 7, trade ministers from the 12 nations involved in the TPP negotiations will meet in Singapore, where they hope to finalize an agreement. Biden and Abe are expected to discuss the TPP in some detail.

Obama wants the negotiations concluded by the end of this year. He is pushing for Congress to give his administration fast-track negotiation authority, meaning it would not be able to amend or filibuster any agreement brought to it for approval.

But over the past six months, opposition to the TPP has grown in the U.S., and clashes with Congress over the budget forced Obama to cancel a trip to Asia in October, where he had hoped to personally push leaders to conclude the TPP negotiations.

Then, in mid-November, 151 congressional Democrats and 25 Republicans told the Obama administration they were opposed to granting fast-track authority.

&#8220;While your administration&#8217;s goal was to sign a TPP free trade agreement at the October Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit, we believe that to date the process has failed to provide adequate consultation with Congress. Twentieth-century &#8216;fast track&#8217; is simply not appropriate for 21st-century agreements and must be replaced. The U.S. cannot afford another trade agreement that replicates the mistakes of the past,&#8221; the House Democrats said in a letter to the president.

Both parties and houses of Congress are growing skeptical in particular of the TPP&#8217;s ability to prevent currency manipulation. Some 230 members of the House and 60 members of the Senate are demanding that the TPP provide measures to counter such manipulation. But there was no discussion of that issue at recently concluded talks in Salt Lake City. TPP opponents noted that this was just one of numerous issues left unresolved.

&#8220;Controversy is growing in many TPP nations about demanded trade-offs relating to medicine prices, Internet freedom, financial regulation and other sensitive matters,&#8221; said Lori Wallach, director of the Washington-based Public Citizen&#8217;s Global Trade Watch, following the Salt Lake City talks.

Biden and Abe may comment on the next round of TPP negotiations in Singapore starting on Dec. 7. But since the vice president&#8217;s schedule will likely be dominated by defusing the crisis and increasing regional cooperation to prevent conflict, the timing of his trip to East Asia is particularly relevant.

However, he will not visit Taiwan, which has a huge stake in the ADIZ controversy. Misato Matsuoka, a doctoral researcher in political science and international studies at the University of Warwick, said it was unlikely Japan would want to discuss what Taiwan&#8217;s role might be in the latest clash over the Senkakus, at least not directly.

&#8220;While China has been expanding its ADIZ, it seems to be difficult for Abe&#8217;s government to suggest new initiatives to cooperate with Taiwan, due to Taiwan&#8217;s delicate position among China, the U.S. and Japan. But there is a possibility to propose a bilateral air transport agreement, for instance,&#8221; she said.

Ultimately, however, the future U.S. role in Asia, particularly East Asia, rests on convincing the region that Washington is not going to reduce its presence and can still provide leadership in the face of a growing China.

With Congress demanding budget cuts and midterm elections in November, the Obama administration will have its hands full domestically in 2014.

Biden, who is considered exceptionally well-versed in Asia, has his work cut out for him in convincing leaders in the region that the administration will not get distracted with domestic politics and back up with action its rhetoric about an Asian rebalance.

China's new air zone at top of agenda for Biden's visit to Tokyo | The Japan Times


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is about American expansionism..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you have no point.
Click to expand...


Then explain the number and spread of U.S. bases around the world and compare them to the Chinese bases outside China.

If America isn't expanding its influence around the world, what else are these bases for?


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Vikrant said:


> GENEVA  The United States said Saturday it was deeply concerned and committed to defending Japan after China announced an air zone in the East China Sea that includes disputed islets.
> 
> In a move that U.S. ally Japan branded as very dangerous, China said it was setting up the air defense identification zone over the islands administered by Tokyo to guard against potential air threats.
> 
> In similar statements, Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said that the United States was deeply concerned about the moves by China, which also scrambled air force jets to carry out a patrol mission in the newly declared zone.
> 
> This unilateral action constitutes an attempt to change the status quo in the East China Sea, Kerry said.
> 
> Escalatory action will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident, the top U.S. diplomat said from Geneva, where he was taking part in talks on reaching an agreement with Iran on its nuclear program.
> 
> Kerry said that the United States has urged China to exercise caution and restraint, and warned Beijing against implementing its new zone.
> 
> We urge China not to implement its threat to take action against aircraft that do not identify themselves or obey orders from Beijing, Kerry said.
> 
> Hagel reiterated that the Japanese-administered Senkaku Islands  which the Chinese claim and call the Diaoyu  fell under the U.S.-Japan security treaty, meaning that Washington would defend its ally Tokyo if the area is attacked.
> 
> We are in close consultation with our allies and partners in the region, including Japan. We remain steadfast in our commitments to our allies and partners, Hagel said.
> 
> The defense chief made clear that the United States, which stations more than 70,000 troops in Japan and South Korea, would not respect Chinas declaration of control over the zone.
> 
> This announcement by the Peoples Republic of China will not in any way change how the United States conducts military operations in the region, Hagel said.
> 
> The outline of the zone, which is shown on the Chinese defense ministry website and a state media Twitter account (pic.twitter.com/4a2vC6PH8O), covers a wide area of the East China Sea between South Korea and Taiwan that includes airspace above the disputed islets.
> 
> Japan last year nationalized some of the islets and has vowed not to cede sovereignty or even to acknowledge a dispute with China, accusing its growing neighbor of trying to change the status quo through intimidation.
> 
> China and Taiwan both claim the islets, which are near potentially energy-rich waters.
> 
> The United States says that it has no position on the islets ultimate sovereignty but believes that they are currently under Japanese administration.
> 
> Freedom of overflight and other internationally lawful uses of sea and airspace are essential to prosperity, stability and security in the Pacific, Kerry said.
> 
> He called for a more collaborative and less confrontational future in the Pacific.
> 
> The United States, for its part, does not ask foreign aircraft to identify themselves if they are not intending to enter U.S. airspace.
> 
> U.S. President Barack Obama has pledged a greater focus on Asia in light of Chinas rise and plans to shift the majority of U.S. warships to the Asia-Pacific region by 2020.
> 
> Obama plans to visit Asia, reportedly including Japan, in April. Kerry, who has invested much of his time on the Middle East, will travel to Asia in the coming weeks.
> 
> U.S. criticizes new China zone, vows to defend Japan | The Japan Times



I believe China wants to take Taiwan.  These are just the first moves leading up to it.  That is what is looks like to me.  - Jeri


----------



## Indofred

America is out of step on this one, as with so many others.
We're slowing seeing other countries reject American attempts to create a new enemy so your war suppliers can make even greater profits on the bodies of the dead.

BBC News - David Cameron promises China 'growth partnership'
Britain, as with so many other countries, is moving away from American influence.


----------



## Vikrant

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is about American expansionism..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you have no point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then explain the number and spread of U.S. bases around the world and compare them to the Chinese bases outside China.
> 
> If America isn't expanding its influence around the world, what else are these bases for?
Click to expand...


Having a military base in a country does not make you the occupier of the country. This falls under the defense pact and is usually mutually beneficial to the countries involved. America has more bases around the world than China because more countries trust America than China. There is a perfectly good reason behind the trust deficit China experiences.


----------



## Vikrant

Joe Biden holds 'very direct' talks with Chinese leadership on disputed air zone

Joe Biden holds 'very direct' talks with Chinese leadership on disputed air zone | World news | theguardian.com


----------



## Vikrant

BEIJING &#8211; Giving no ground, Chinese President Xi Jinping and U.S. Vice President Joe Biden traded strong arguments Wednesday over China&#8217;s contentious new air defense zone, with no indication of progress toward defusing a situation that is raising anxieties across Asia and beyond.

Though Biden made clear the deep concern of the U.S. and other countries during the 5½ hours of talks &#8212; themselves highly unusual for an American vice president and Chinese president &#8212; Xi vigorously made his case, too, for China&#8217;s declaration of new rules concerning a strip of airspace more than 950 km long above disputed islands in the East China Sea.

The U.S. worries that China&#8217;s demand that pilots entering the airspace file flight plans with Beijing could lead to an accident or a confrontation spiraling dangerously out of control. Now it is up to the Chinese to take steps to lower tensions, and &#8220;it&#8217;s a question of behavior and action,&#8221; said a U.S. official, who briefed reporters on the private talks.

The official was not authorized to be quoted by name and spoke only on condition of anonymity.

Though Biden expressed no disappointment in public remarks, the outcome of his visit was not what the U.S. might have hoped for.

A day earlier, the vice president had stood shoulder to shoulder in Tokyo with Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, pledging to raise Washington&#8217;s concerns with Xi directly. But as he arrived in Beijing, an editorial in the state-run China Daily charged Washington with &#8220;turning a blind eye to Tokyo&#8217;s provocations,&#8221; warning that Biden would hit a dead end should he come &#8220;simply to repeat his government&#8217;s previous erroneous and one-sided remarks.&#8221;

Late Wednesday in Washington, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel called China&#8217;s announcement of the zone &#8220;destabilizing&#8221; and complained that it had come &#8220;so unilaterally and so immediately without any consultation.&#8221;

&#8220;That&#8217;s not a wise course of action to take for any country,&#8221; Hagel said at a Pentagon news conference.

Neither Biden nor Xi mentioned the dispute as they appeared briefly before reporters at the end of their first round of talks. But in private, the issue came up at length at the beginning and again near the end of the long-planned meeting, senior Obama administration officials said.

The typically upbeat Biden appeared subdued as he reflected on the complexity of the relationship between China and the U.S., two world powers seeking closer ties despite wide ideological gulfs they have as of yet been unable to bridge.

&#8220;This new model of major-country cooperation ultimately has to be based on trust, and a positive notion about the motive of one another,&#8221; Biden said, flanked by top advisers in a resplendent meeting room steps away from Tiananmen Square.

The calibrated public comments played down the deep strains permeating the relationship between the world&#8217;s two largest economies.

Earlier, however, Biden told Chinese youngsters waiting to get visitor visas processed at the U.S. Embassy that American children are rewarded rather than punished for challenging the status quo, an implicit criticism of the Chinese government&#8217;s authoritarian rule.

&#8220;I hope you learn that innovation can only occur where you can breathe free, challenge the government, challenge religious leaders.&#8221; Biden said.

Xi, for his part, stuck to the script &#8212; at least in public. The Chinese leader touted the benefits of closer U.S.-China ties as he laid out &#8220;profound and complex changes&#8221; under way in Asia and across the globe.

&#8220;The world, as a whole, is not tranquil,&#8221; Xi said.

Behind closed doors, Xi made his own case for why China&#8217;s action to establish the air zone is appropriate, said the U.S. administration officials, who weren&#8217;t authorized to comment by name and demanded anonymity. Xi listened earnestly as Biden presented his own arguments, the officials said, but it was unclear what impact there might have been.

The simmering dispute over the tiny islands and the airspace above them has trailed Biden throughout his weeklong trip to Asia. After meeting with China&#8217;s premier and speaking to business leaders Thursday, he will fly to Seoul in South Korea &#8212; another neighbor whose air defense zone now overlaps with China&#8217;s.

American officials say as far as Washington is concerned China&#8217;s newly claimed zone doesn&#8217;t exist, and the U.S. military has flown B-52 bombers through it to drive the point home. But U.S guidance to commercial pilots to abide by the airspace rules has rankled Japan and other allies, who urged the U.S. to stand firm against China as Biden headed to the region.

The Obama administration sees China&#8217;s move as part of a broader strategy to solidify its claims to territory as the country asserts its power more vigorously in the region. Wary that nationalist sentiments in China may preclude Xi from backing down now that he&#8217;s established the zone, Washington has sought to persuade Beijing to quietly refrain from enforcing it, nullifying it in practice if not in deed.

&#8220;Xi has no room on this, at least right now,&#8221; said Victor Cha, who headed Asian affairs for the White House National Security Council in the George W. Bush administration. &#8220;Maybe the space will come later in terms of enforcement of the zone, but now they are butting heads on the issue, and the Chinese see us as carrying too much of Japan&#8217;s water.&#8221;

The U.S. has also urged China not to implement new zones over other disputed territories, as China has already claimed it has the right to do. Defending such actions, Chinese officials point out that other countries including Japan and the U.S. have similar defense zones over their lands.

Japan and China both claim the islands in the East China Sea. The U.S. takes no position but recognizes that Japan administers them. China is entangled in other disputes as well, including a long-running argument with the Philippines over islands in the South China Sea.

Tensions between the U.S. and China were temporarily glossed over earlier when Biden arrived here for an elaborate welcoming ceremony in Beijing&#8217;s Great Hall of the People. Chinese Vice President Li Yuanchao greeted his American counterpart with an elaborate honor guard and a military band that played the two countries&#8217; national anthems, as Biden and Xi stood together on a platform above the massive hall&#8217;s marble floors and crisscrossing red carpets.

China gives no ground to Biden in air zone dispute | The Japan Times


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Vikrant said:


> *
> China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, India And More, According To Pro-Government Chinese Newspaper
> *
> 
> China's announcement last weekend of an Air Defense Identification Zone, which includes disputed areas of the East China Sea, has ratcheted up tensions between China and her neighbors, leading some to believe war is imminent.
> 
> The new air defense area includes the airspace above the hotly disputed cluster of tiny islands known as the Diaoyu to China and the Senkaku to the Japanese. International reaction to the ADIZ, particularly from Japan and its ally the U.S., has been uniformly defiant. In addition to official statements from Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, Reuters reported Tuesday that two U.S. military aircraft have flown around the disputed islands in direct defiance of Chinas ADIZ.
> 
> We have conducted operations in the area of the Senkakus, spokesman Col. Steve Warren said, using the Japanese name for the islands. In addition to declaring the zones wide boundaries, Chinese military forces announced that all air travel in the designated ADIZ must be reported to avoid emergency defensive measures in response. The U.S. did the flyover without addressing the demands made by China. We have continued to follow our normal procedures, which include not filing flight plans, not radioing ahead and not registering our frequencies, Warren continued.
> 
> The new ADIZ has brought added tension to one of Chinas several current territorial disputes. As pointed out in Shanghai-based news-blog, The Shanghaiist.com, earlier this summer, a particularly strident pro-government local newspaper, Weweipo, published a war-mongering article describing the Six Wars China Is Sure to Fight In the Next 50 Years. The article essentially predicts that most of Chinas current border disputes will eventually lead to war.
> 
> China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, India And More, According To Pro-Government Chinese Newspaper



When China makes her move for Taiwan I believe that America will go to war.  I think that is coming.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Thank you for the updates on this, Vikrant. This is a very important news story.


----------



## Vikrant

Jeremiah said:


> Thank you for the updates on this, Vikrant. This is a very important news story.



You are welcome. This is a crucial global event.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Vikrant said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the updates on this, Vikrant. This is a very important news story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome. This is a crucial global event.
Click to expand...


That is so true and I don't believe Americans believe it is possible but I do believe the Romanian,  Duduman , who said when China makes her move for Taiwan America will retaliate against the Chinese and then?  Then Russia will attack us on our own soil.  That is how close we are now to all out war.  China isn't doing all these war exercises for nothing.  Chinese troop build up inside Mexico isn't happening by a fluke. I watched a live leaks video early this morning of a Mexican cartel leader out in the woods with his soldiers making a video for his local media pleading with them to explain what all the chinese troops and chinese mafioso are doing inside Mexico right now.  The cartels are in fear it is all out war against them.  They do not know yet that these Chinese troops are waiting to come across the Mexican - US border to invade the United States.  They will soon enough.  So will everyone else.  When it is too late. 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f2a_1386280548

Have a look at the video for yourself - they give the translation in English.

Last part of vid has been cut - that wasn't cut last night. Still he does tell about them being invaded by foreigner Chinese and Chinese Mafioso you can read it on the video translation..  you can tell he thinks these chinese troops are there to take out their cartels - they probably are not being told as the Mexicans have families here in America working and sending back money.  They would probably go to war & drive them out now if they knew the Chinese are coming to slaughter indiscriminately once they cross that border.  This is chess 101.  They are going to come in from all sides.  (the russians are already here inside our borders waiting)


----------



## Indofred

I think Taiwan has the strongest claim.


----------



## Indofred

Jeremiah said:


> When China makes her move for Taiwan I believe that America will go to war.  I think that is coming.



Very foolish post.
Any war may well turn nuclear and that, for the simple minded, means massive destruction in China and America.

Many major Chinese cities would be destroyed but you can wave bye bye to Washington and New York as well.


----------



## Vikrant

WASHINGTON &#8211; The United States has urged China to set up an emergency hotline with Japan and South Korea to avoid confusion in Beijing&#8217;s newly declared air defense zone.

Washington does not recognize Beijing&#8217;s air defense identification zone, which extends over the East China Sea and the Japan-held Senkaku Islands, and has called on China to get rid of it. Amid heightened tensions over the Senkakus, whose ownership is contested by China, the U.S. proposed the hotline&#8217;s creation Friday.

&#8220;As we work through this process, they (China) need to do a few things right now to immediately lower tensions,&#8221; deputy U.S. State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said.

&#8220;China should work with other countries, including Japan and South Korea, to establish confidence-building measures, including emergency communications channels to address the dangers that its recent announcement has created,&#8221; she said.

The United States has said that its military aircraft will ignore China&#8217;s demands that flight plans be filed when passing through the ADIZ. But Washington has urged commercial airlines to stick by Federal Aviation Administration guidelines to stay safe.

Harf said one of the potential dangers is that because the ADIZ overlaps airspace administered by other countries, China has &#8220;created a situation in which two different authorities claim to give orders to civilian aircraft, which could potentially create confusion.&#8221;

It &#8220;creates a destabilizing dynamic, which could compel China&#8217;s neighbors to take further actions to respond,&#8221; she said.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden said during a visit to Beijing on Thursday that regional peace and stability are in China&#8217;s interests.

&#8220;As China&#8217;s economy grows, its stake in regional peace and stability will continue to grow as well, because it has so much more to lose,&#8221; he said. &#8220;That&#8217;s why China will bear increasing responsibility to contribute positively to peace and security.&#8221;

Harf said that while there is no treaty governing how nations create such air zones, &#8220;there are established practices of states to ensure the safety of civil and state aircraft.&#8221; As a regional power, she said, China must seek &#8220;to reduce the risk of accidental conflict and miscalculation, to not do things that raise tensions in the region, to act responsibly."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...ine-to-defuse-air-zone-tensions/#.UqQKivRDu5O


----------



## SayMyName

It will all peeter out to much ado about nothing soon enough. The US mastered saber rattling a long time ago, but not the meeting of objectives by creep, which the Chinese are very good at.

The Chinese will stay, and wait us out. They have a great amount of patience, and the holding of much of the American debt, which finances the US war machine.

It would be interesting to note just how far such an Air Defense zone extends for what the US sees as its territory. Half the world, perhaps? 

In the aftermath of losing 20 million people to the Japanese during the occupation of their country during WW2, I don't feel very sorry for Tokyo. Besides, its Asia, and that is China's back yard. I don't think we would take very kindly ourselves if a major power was meddling in Mexico. Goodness, we nearly went to nuclear war with the Soviets at one point for simply being in Cuba.

In truth, we already know the obvious. The United States would only take on China militarily off their shores if our leaders had completely lost their minds. We can't even finish a war with a second and third world group like the Iraqis and Taliban without years of struggle and what looks like a draw. What makes us think we could really ever take on a power that has the resources and growing technological savvy that they have. Aren't they now even producing massive numbers of copies of our Tomahawk type cruise missiles far in excess to what we are?


Just asking men.


----------



## Vikrant

There have been numerous discussions over why China announced its ADIZ at this moment. Some view it as a an institutional justification for China&#8217;s so-called  righteous behaviors near its shore, while some regard it as an unnecessary challenge to the current regional order which has been dominated by the U.S.-Japan alliance. Despite the mainly negative and critical responses from its neighbors and particularly from Japan, China does not want to hide its confidence and even assertiveness on this matter. Beijing will probably establish ADIZ in the Yellow and South China Seas in the near future.

One of the main implications of China&#8217;s move is that it has been taking every chance to change its role from that of a humble and obedient follower of U.S.-dominated regional and international orders, to that of a new player in the current multiple rule-making processes. Aiming to be a rule-maker, China has become substantially involved in the multinational anti-piracy efforts in the Gulf of Aden and has also raised its voice in world climate dialogues. Actually, China has been sending out even stronger and clearer messages.

&#8220;If the rules are made by the international community through agreement and China is part of it, China will definitely abide by them, but if the rules are decided by one or several countries, China does not have the obligation to observe them,&#8221; Pang Sen, deputy head of Department of International Organizations and Conferences of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, told the press at the end of the APEC economic leaders&#8217; meeting in Honolulu in November 2011. The East China Sea ADIZ is a carefully planned attempt for China to make the rules at its own doorstep, which are supported by China&#8217;s ever-growing economic and military power. If China succeeds or at least avoids starting an uncontrollable escalation of regional confrontation, Beijing will become more confident. More cases will follow as China goes further in setting up its own rules.

However, China is also running the risk of unifying regional powers&#8211; like the U.S., Japan, and probably South Korea&#8211; against it. Seoul has expressed significant concern and opposition to China&#8217;s recent ADIZ, which unilaterally included a submerged rock claimed by both China and South Korea (for more on this, see Ankit Panda&#8217;s article).

The U.S. does not maintain as strong of a U.S.-led alliance system in Southeast Asia as it does with its East Asian allies. As a result, China has been relatively successful in practicing a strategy of &#8220;divide and conquer&#8221; to manage the South China Sea disputes. The East China Sea dispute is different: the U.S. has repeatedly reaffirmed its obligation to protect Japan&#8217;s administrative, jurisdictive, and legislative rights to the disputed islands. By flying B-52 bombers into China&#8217;s ADIZ, the U.S. made its message crystal clear.

The risk is weighing upon all the directly or indirectly involved parties. For example, South Korean policymakers might feel like they are sitting on pins and needles, even though Seoul in only indirectly involved in this. However, neither Beijing nor Tokyo or Washington are seeking a military confrontation. Regional military conflict on the East China Sea will undoubtedly be a total disaster for not only East Asia but also the whole world, given East Asian countries&#8217; important roles in the world economy. Hence, all parties, more or less, are playing a game of pride and &#8220;face.&#8221; Still, all parties are prepared for possible miscalculation and the resulting escalation.

The current situation is very serious but it is not yet a game of chicken. When U.S. Vice President Biden&#8217;s ignored some in Japan&#8217;s calls for a joint announcement on the ADIZ, it demonstrated that the U.S. is committed to leaving some maneuvering space for all parties in handling the current situation. Chinese ancient strategist Sun Tzu told us that &#8220;when you surround an army, leave an outlet free&#8221; (in Chinese, &#22260;&#24072;&#24517;&#38425. This might provide a ray of hope for creating and maintaining peace on East China Sea: leaving an outlet would allow all involved parties a chance to deescalate. Beijing, Tokyo, and Washington should take care not to pass the point of no return.

With ADIZ, China Emerges As Regional Rule-Maker | The Diplomat


----------



## Indofred

I'm informed, South Korea has just extended its zone.
Will posters be condemning them as well?


----------



## Vikrant

Indofred said:


> I'm informed, South Korea has just extended its zone.
> Will posters be condemning them as well?



The purpose of ADIZ is to give the country more time to respond to foreign and possibly hostile aircraft; it is vital for small countries like S Korea. The important thing to note about S Korea's ADIZ is that: a) it does not violate the airspace of any country or any existing ADIZ in deep contrast to that of China's which overlaps S Korea's ADIZ b) S Korea unlike China has consulted its neighbors and they are OK with it.


----------



## Unkotare

Japan and South Korea hold joint exercise in China?s air defence zone | South China Morning Post


"Japan and South Korea have conducted a joint naval exercise in an area covered by China's air defence identification zone - a move that is seen as sending a firm message to Beijing."


----------



## Vikrant

Glory to China for it is bringing Japan and S Korea together.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Indofred said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> When China makes her move for Taiwan I believe that America will go to war.  I think that is coming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very foolish post.
> Any war may well turn nuclear and that, for the simple minded, means massive destruction in China and America.
> 
> Many major Chinese cities would be destroyed but you can wave bye bye to Washington and New York as well.
Click to expand...


There won't be any nuclear exchange.  The Russians will strike America so hard there will be no response - because unlike us they are not flying blind here - the plan has been there for decades.  As you are in Indonesia perhaps you are not aware of what is happening inside Mexico and the USA right now.. it is all like chess....and we are in the end game here.  It is foolishness to you because you do not understand what is going on, Indo.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah

Indofred said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> When China makes her move for Taiwan I believe that America will go to war.  I think that is coming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very foolish post.
> Any war may well turn nuclear and that, for the simple minded, means massive destruction in China and America.
> 
> Many major Chinese cities would be destroyed but you can wave bye bye to Washington and New York as well.
Click to expand...


In this article printed by Reuters several months ago the president of Taiwan made a statement that he believes that China will try to invade Taiwan and take it no later than 2020.  I believe it will be alot sooner than that.  

Taiwan says China could launch successful invasion by 2020 | Reuters

Taiwan says China could launch successful invasion by 2020
TAIPEI Wed Oct 9, 2013 5:10am EDT 
12 Comments 
inShare.5Share thisEmailPrint 
Taiwan's President Ma Ying-jeou speaks during a meeting with journalists in a hotel in Asuncion August 14, 2013. 

Credit: Reuters/Jorge Adorno
TAIPEI (Reuters) - China will be able to fend off U.S. forces and successfully invade Taiwan by 2020, the island's Defense Ministry said on Wednesday, the first time Taipei has given such a precise timetable for the threat it says it faces.

China and Taiwan have been ruled separately since Nationalist forces, defeated by the Communists, fled to the island at the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949. China considers Taiwan a renegade province and has never ruled out the use of force to bring it under its control.


----------



## Indeependent

Ooh!  We're criticizing China!
Of course when we sell them large chunks of America we do so with a loving smile.

Bad China...Now, can I have my iPhone and my Food Processor?


----------



## Unkotare

Jeremiah said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> When China makes her move for Taiwan I believe that America will go to war.  I think that is coming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very foolish post.
> Any war may well turn nuclear and that, for the simple minded, means massive destruction in China and America.
> 
> Many major Chinese cities would be destroyed but you can wave bye bye to Washington and New York as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There won't be any nuclear exchange.  The Russians will strike America so hard there will be no response - because unlike us they are not flying blind here - the plan has been there for decades.  As you are in Indonesia perhaps you are not aware of what is happening inside Mexico and the USA right now.. it is all like chess....and we are in the end game here.  It is foolishness to you because you do not understand what is going on, Indo.
Click to expand...




You need to take your little show to the Conspiracy Forum.


----------



## Unkotare

Japan to boost defense spending, shift troops to south amid concerns about China's rise | Fox News


----------



## SalaamAkir

3.14 said:


> *No, there is not*. We use allies as we police the world. Japan isn't our ally for no reason-we're their ally because we use their country to establish a military presence in Asia (*so who's the real aggressor?*).



There are no U.S. bases on Senkaku, and even if the U.S. were to close down _all_ its Pacific bases, the sea disputes between China and its neighbours would still continue and intensify, they've been going on for quite some while now. Japan and America are allies because their mutual national interests usually converge, and that's been true since the Cold War, and even more so to this day. Japan needs the U.S. as much as the U.S. needs it.



3.14 said:


> Finally, I am aware that you have snapped like this before, so you should know that *rudeness does not elevate you*. You may gain some support by aggressively suppressing disagreement, but anyone can be rude-only a few cannot restrain themselves. *Stop showing off your crudeness and idiocy*. I notice that you and Unkotare both are good at avoiding actual debate by stalling the discussion with inappropriate distractions. At best, this shows that you simply do not know how to argue.



Maybe because they are genuinely tired of arguing with you, and see little point to such debate



3.14 said:


> Calling this newspaper "pro-government", although true, is misleading. While the civilian press in China is controlled, this is only performed against dissident publications. China *generally does not use resources for controlling the pro-government press.*



Is there an exact source for these bold assertions? To my knowledge, China has an entire department devoted weekly to circulating pro-CCP propaganda through its state-controlled outlets to sway public opinion and promote the interests of the Communist regime

http://www.scmp.com/topics/central-propaganda-department-chinese-communist-party



3.14 said:


> You quoted these civilians because you wanted *to give the erroneous impression that China is the aggressor*, which makes American military presence in Asia seem justified, even though you do not even know if the Chinese government is actually making these aggressive statements-*and they probably weren't*. Anyone who uses common sense would probably conclude that this far-fetched and extremely dangerous fantasy was probably conjured by an unthinking, overpatriotic person. You basically tried to tricked us, Vikrant. What does this prove about the Chinese government's agenda?



'Erroneous impression', honestly? You seem very adamant on that. Most Vietnamese people I know, for example, think China is a far greater threat to them, not the West. Are you Chinese, by any chance? 

True, certain instances of American aggression and controversial FP is well-known, and should be properly criticized, but personally, I feel it ludicrous to try defending China is much better nation. The basis for cited article is not necessarily invalid, the Chinese have had very serious boundary and land disputes with nearly all its neighbours (even North Korea and Pakistan) either in past or future

Maybe you should ask most Asians, other than the Chinese and North Koreans, whether they think China or U.S. is bigger threat to them in Asia's region


----------



## SalaamAkir

-


----------



## Indofred

Jeremiah said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> When China makes her move for Taiwan I believe that America will go to war.  I think that is coming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very foolish post.
> Any war may well turn nuclear and that, for the simple minded, means massive destruction in China and America.
> 
> Many major Chinese cities would be destroyed but you can wave bye bye to Washington and New York as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There won't be any nuclear exchange.  The Russians will strike America so hard there will be no response - because unlike us they are not flying blind here - the plan has been there for decades.  As you are in Indonesia perhaps you are not aware of what is happening inside Mexico and the USA right now.. it is all like chess....and we are in the end game here.  It is foolishness to you because you do not understand what is going on, Indo.
Click to expand...


I read several news outlets every day.
I've extended my reading material from the BBC, English papers, local publications and a couple of American outlets to several other world news portals, including Israeli, Chinese and Russian sites.
That way I can see what all sides are thinking so I'm getting a pretty good idea of what's going on.
Add to this, every time I read something on political forums I'm less than familiar with, I research the subject until I have enough information to form a reasonable opinion.
Unlike many, I do not restrict myself to stories that fit my religious or political opinions; rather, I consider all sides and decide who is guilty or how blame should be apportions on the facts, not because I want it to be true.

This is where the Korean story of politicians being fed to dogs or Obama being Kenyan goes wrong.
Either these stories are made up or are buggered by facts available at the time.
My dislike of socialism doesn't require me to believe any old bull someone makes up because they're too stupid to argue on Obama's record so they have to resort to racist slurs or fiction in a bootless attempt to remove an elected president.
This applies to the Korean dog story: the NK lot are disliked, fair enough, but why believe any old shit?
That's stupid.

That brings us to these stories regarding America's new evil enemy.
China has done next to nothing when you compare their record to that of the United States, they have very few military bases outside China and have invaded just the one country, plus border pea flicking with India.
America has massive military all over the world and has invaded lots of countries, none were claimed by America or were any threat to America, but you killed millions of people anyway.

One has to look at all sides, the history of the conflict and what sparked events we see today and, most important, are these reported events true?
How many news stories do we find were fabrications or turn out to be propaganda?
This applies to these Chinese stories.
America is out to defend these tiny Islands, thousands of miles away from America and absolutely nothing to do with America.

The question is, why?
When you ask that question, you have to clear the fog of bullshit around all the stories and find out the truth.
Have a clue - follow the cash.


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Japan to boost defense spending, shift troops to south amid concerns about China's rise | Fox News



Guess what, they aren't buying from Russia or China, the American arms industry is getting the cash.
That's what this island shit is really about - cold, hard cash but so many people are foolish enough to think America is defending freedom.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Add to this, every time I read something on political forums I'm less than familiar with, I research the subject until I have enough information to form a reasonable opinion.
> Unlike many, I do not restrict myself to stories that fit my religious or political opinions; .



You?!


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> America is out to defend these tiny Islands, thousands of miles away from America and absolutely nothing to do with America...




They DO absolutely have to do with America, you ignorant, bitter, myopic buffoon.


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> America is out to defend these tiny Islands, thousands of miles away from America and absolutely nothing to do with America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They DO absolutely have to do with America, you ignorant, bitter, myopic buffoon.
Click to expand...


Please inform us as to what.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> America is out to defend these tiny Islands, thousands of miles away from America and absolutely nothing to do with America...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They DO absolutely have to do with America, you ignorant, bitter, myopic buffoon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please inform us as to what.
Click to expand...



I've already informed you several times now. Your pathological anti-Americanism seems to prevent you from retaining information.


----------



## Indofred

Unkotare said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> They DO absolutely have to do with America, you ignorant, bitter, myopic buffoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please inform us as to what.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I've already informed you several times now. Your pathological anti-Americanism seems to prevent you from retaining information.
Click to expand...


See, no argument and no valid points to consider, just insults.
Pointless.


----------



## Unkotare

Indofred said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please inform us as to what.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've already informed you several times now. Your pathological anti-Americanism seems to prevent you from retaining information.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See, no argument and no valid points to consider, just insults.
> Pointless.
Click to expand...



^^ Confirms my previous post.


----------

