# Can Paris summit save two-state solution?



## Eloy (Jan 13, 2017)

"A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream. 

Seventy countries are expected this weekend to reiterate their opposition to Israeli settlements and call for the establishment of a Palestinian state as “the only way” to ensure peace in the region.

According to a draft statement obtained by The Associated Press on Friday, the conference will urge Israel and the Palestinians “to officially restate their commitment to the two-state solution.”

It also will affirm that the international community “will not recognize” changes to Israel’s pre-1967 lines without agreement by both sides.

The draft says that participants will affirm “that a negotiated solution with two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security, is the only way to achieve enduring peace.”
News from The Associated Press

After the conference, French President Hollande intends to meet separately with Benjamin Netanyahu and also with President Mahmoud Abbas.

There is only one objectionable point in the draft statement that the Palestinians could object to and that is the idea of a two-state solution needing to be "negotiated". Experience tells us that talking to the Israelis is pointless as the time is used merely to construct more Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

The Israelis will have none of it because it is their position that what they do in the Occupied Territories is no business of other countries and that they prefer to talk directly to the Palestinians ... and talk and build, and talk and build, and talk and build _ad infinitum_.

Verdict: It takes two to tango. This conference is D.O.A.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 14, 2017)

Photos of the Paris Summit.


----------



## TheOldSchool (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.


----------



## Slyhunter (Jan 14, 2017)

3 state solution.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.


I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.


----------



## TheOldSchool (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.
> ...


Remember that each side is speaking from the perspective of religious madness.  Neither will give up their presumed holy inheritance willingly.  Not even in part.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2017)

Are they still kicking that dead horse?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.


I believe the Palestinians want Palestine recognized as a state and are prepared to live in peace. Israel wants peace too but only on conditions. I also think Israel does not want Palestine as a neighbor but would prefer a system of reservations for Palestinians which they could call any name they like.


Slyhunter said:


> 3 state solution.


This is not on the Paris agenda.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Are they still kicking that dead horse?


So it appears.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> each side is speaking from the perspective of religious madness



I admire your ability to speak confidently about a subject you have absolutely no knowledge or insight. 

It's inspirational in a sad, pathetic way.


----------



## Missouri_Mike (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.
> ...


Considering there is no such thing as Palestine in either people or a country and the made up Palestinian cause is based and formed upon the elimination of all Jews and the state of Israel from the planet why would Israel want them for neighbors or anything else? So called palistine doesn't want or even claim to want peace. They can't even get other muslim countries to recognize them outside the area of fighting Israel. Why would anyone negotiate with such people?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > TheOldSchool said:
> ...


It doesn't bear thinking about sometimes.


----------



## TheOldSchool (Jan 14, 2017)

fncceo said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > each side is speaking from the perspective of religious madness
> ...


So many words, and you failed to say a single thing.  What a waste.


----------



## TheOldSchool (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Your verdict is that the conference is D.O.A.  Until conditions change where a solution is possible (but not a 2 state solution because religious madness forbids that), it's not going to happen.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > TheOldSchool said:
> ...


It seems that way sometimes.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > TheOldSchool said:
> ...


Where there's a will, there's a way.


----------



## TheOldSchool (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


Going on multiple millennia now


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
> Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.
> 
> ...



It never was a "solution".  Why would we try to save something that is not, and never was, a solution?

If you create a new state, that will just create war in the middle east, that Israel will win, and we'll be right back here where we already are.

There is no solution to this conflict.  One side must defeat the other side.  Israel has to wipe out, and annex the rest of the territory.   That is the only solution.


----------



## TheOldSchool (Jan 14, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> ...


Pretty much.  And hope that the world and/or every nation that surrounds them for thousands and thousands of miles doesn't retaliate.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> ...


We are where we are.
The cause of the conflict has a lot to do with the immigration of so many European Jews to the Holy Land which was overwhelmingly Arab. There was one Palestine there then but not one state in the community of nations. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state could only have happened by the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous Arabs, leaving many refugees from Palestine all over the Middle East. Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own and internationally this seemed unjust which is why a state of Palestine in those parts of Palestine which had not become Israel was proposed by the UN decades ago.

If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.
> ...









 So you ignore the well published and much touted palestinian demands for pre conditions before they will even meet. Demands that are illegal and unworkable to such an extent that even the UN finds fault with then.

It is already recognised as a state, what it wants is the world to lavish it with money so they wont start a terrorist war that will spread. They dont want to work and earn their place in society, they want to be free loaders


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



First off "indigenous Arabs" is an oxymoron.  Second, the Jews are the only people group that have been in the land of Israel, continuously since the time of David the King.

There is no other group that has lived in that land non-stop for the last 2,000 years.

"*Those Arab Palestinians were left with no state of their own"*

This statement is entirely false.  100%, this is false.

When Israel was being created, they did everything they could to keep the Arab people in the land.  This is a fact.  They spread leaflets saying that if they stayed in the land, they would be granted Israeli citizenship, and their property rights, and land ownership would be protected.

To this day, there are Arabs who stayed in the land, and became Israeli citizens, and some are even in the Israeli government, as elected representatives of the people.

List of Arab members of the Knesset - Wikipedia

This is a well known established fact.   This myth that the IDF showed up and kicked everyone out, is not only false, but the exact opposite of the truth.

Israel was worried that if all the Arabs left, that the economy would implode.  So they were very intent that people stay, and that they would become Israeli citizens, and they would keep their property.

The problem is, the Arabs didn't stay, or didn't agree to the terms.

Take the example of Lydda.  When Israeli showed up, many people abandoned their property, or worse, joined the Arab Legionaries.

Read how Israel handled this:

The Israeli government set up a committee to handle the Palestinian Arab refugees and their abandoned property. The committee issued an explicit order that *forbade* "to destroy, burn or demolish Arab towns and villages, to expel the inhabitants of Arab villages, neighborhoods and towns, or to uproot the Arab population from their place of residence" without having previously received, a specific and direct order from the Minister of Defense. Regulations ordered the sealing off of Arab areas to prevent looting and acts of revenge and stated that captured men were to be treated as POWs with the Red Cross notified. *Palestinian Arabs who wished to remain were allowed to do so and the confiscation of their property was prohibited*.​
See?    They didn't kick these guys out.  Israel is not to blame for this.

Here's how the Arabs responded.

On 12 July, at 11:30 hours, two or three Arab Legion armored cars entered the city, led by Lt. Hamadallah al-Abdullah from the Jordanian 1st Brigade. The Arab Legion armored cars opened fire on the Israeli soldiers combing the old city which created the impression that the Jordanians had staged counterattack. The exchange of gunfire led residents and Arab fighters to believe the Legion had arrived in force, and those still armed started firing at the Israelis too. Local militia once again renewed hostilities and an Israeli patrol were set upon by a rioting mob in the market place.​So let's recap.  The people of Lydda surrendered to the Israelis, and were guaranteed rights and property.

A few Jordanians showed up, and fired some shots at Israelis, and all of a sudden all these people who surrendered, and had their property and rights protected.... started attacking the Israelis.

So of course.... as any military would... as any nation would.... they killed all the combatants, and expelled the rest.

The Arabs expelled themselves.   They attacked the Israelis when they could have been protected Israeli citizens with full rights.  Instead they started killing people, and got what they deserved for it.

*If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war and ethnic cleansing, the politicians of only one country might support that, the USA. Others will not and then the war would not be contained to the old Palestinian Mandate. Right now, Israel is doing this with its policy of blockade and occupation. This is judged to be no solution either.
*
No, you don't understand my position.   I'm not saying what there should, or should not be.  That doesn't matter.

You can argue all day long what YOU think, or what other countries think, or what everyone on else in the world thinks.

None of that matters.

You have two groups of people.

One group believes they have a Divine right, handed down through 4,000 years of human history, and a long standing claim, that is over 2,000 years old, that this tiny bit of land is their own land.

Then you have another group, and they are against the first group having any land of their own at all.

Now which group do you think is going to cave in?   "If, as you say, there should be only one state and it should be the Jewish state of Israel by means of war..."..... Which group do you think is going to cave in?    "But this is judged to not be a solution...."   WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN?

"But but but!!!  Nations around the world will say...."

*WHICH GROUP DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO CAVE IN!?!?!?
*
See a problem there sparky?   One group says there can not be an Israeli state.  Another group says it's a divine right handed down for thousands of years.

Which group.......  which goal.....  do you think....   can be met half way?




 

Do you think a two-state solution is going to fix that?

Goal:  Elimination of the state of Israel.
Goal:  Creation of a complete Israeli nation, with Jerusalem as the capital.

Solution.....   here's a Palestine Arab state.

*What do you think, has been fixed here?*

You fixed nothing.   The only thing you have done, is given Palestine a new way to buy guns and weapons, to start a war with Israel, that will drag in the entire middle east, and many other parts of the world.

The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed.   There is no co-exist solution.  Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think.  None of that matters.   These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail.  There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because *USMessageBoard* is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.

So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 _de facto_ border.

It is hoped that the seventy countries represented at the Paris summit tomorrow (John Kerry included) will kick-start a serious effort on the part of Israel and Palestine to a two-state solution. This means, according to the draft of the topics, that Israel will stop its opposition to a Palestinian state.

For the reasons I gave earlier in the Opening Post, I cannot see this happening. Consequently, countries will continue to recognize Palestine and the conflict will continue as Israel becomes an apartheid Jewish state in all of the former British Mandate territory or it will change its mind and also recognize Palestine. The world will most certainly not be spectators of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs who are going nowhere.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 14, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Most of the ancestors of the Palestinians practiced Judaism before the birth of Christ and spoke Aramaic. That they adopted Arabic as a language and most (but not all) converted from Christianity to Islam does not change who their ancestors are.  The European converts to Judaism that invaded Palestine have very little, if any native ancestry in Palestine.

By the way, Arab (like Hispanic) is cultural and linguistic construct, not an ethnicity.  A black Sudanese or a red haired berber will describe themselves as Arab.  You are confusing Arabian (a Bedouin from Arabia) with Arab, or in the case of Palestine Muslim and Christian Levantines that speak Arabic.

"Most Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of European women who converted to Judaism, possibly around the time of the early Roman empire,"
read more: Study traces Ashkenazi roots to European women who probably converted to Judaism


----------



## esthermoon (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
> Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.
> 
> ...


I don't believe in international summit. 99% of times they end up with nothing...
They just talk during the summit.... and live lavish 
Israelis and Palestinians shouldn't think this summit can be useful for them!


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 14, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> The only solution is either Israel is eliminated, or the Arabs are removed.   There is no co-exist solution.  Doesn't matter what your dumb opinion is, or what other nations think.  None of that matters.   These two people groups have mutually exclusive goals, and one will succeed, and one will fail.  There is no 'half-way' hold-hands, and "sing kumbaya around the camp fire" solution.



Decades ago I believed a 2-state might be possible, but after the ma'alot massacre and other arab muslim-driven terrorist attacks that were widely supported by them, plus the lebanese civil war started by the muslims, convinced me that peace is not possible with musims - they can only be eliminated and crushed.  Thomas Jefferson and Winston Churchill said the same thing, and it is true to this day.  islam is a death cult and must be destroyed; either do it now, or in a few decades when it will be much harder.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you because *USMessageBoard* is for people to express their opinions no matter how dumb others think of them.
> 
> So, I will keep it brief. Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line. This is the country which is a member state of the United Nations. The UN member state of Israel then does not include any part of the Occupied Territories. For decades the UN has held the opinion that these Occupied Territories should become the state of Palestine with mutually agreed land swaps along the 1967 _de facto_ border.
> 
> ...



Dishonest scum like this is a big part of the problem; if there were 2 states the hostile arab muslim filth (a majority of them) and the iranian vermin would simply move their terrorism and violence closer, just as this filth did in lebanon and gaza when Israel exited those places.  There is nothing in the PA's policies or school curriculum that show that the arab muslims/iran have any intention of ever accepting peace with Israel, none.

I am not willing to sacrifice 5 MM jews to prove my point correct as I do not need to; the recent wave of stabbings and other terrorist attacks already do so nicely except to lying arab muslim filth like the dogshit I quoted above, and their useful idiot leftist allies/apologists in the West, who are responsible for enabling the arab muslim terrorists and their terrorism for decades.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 14, 2017)

esthermoon said:


> I don't believe in international summit. 99% of times they end up with nothing...
> They just talk during the summit.... and live lavish
> Israelis and Palestinians shouldn't think this summit can be useful for them!



You have to realize there is an entire INDUSTRY of people, in the UN, EU and amongst the fakestinians, who make a very successful living off of stoking and maintaining this conflict. 

As you pointed out, lots of people get to enjoy weeks at nice hotels with fine meals in beautiful places discussing nonsense for a week or more at a time, pretending to be "solving" this conflict.  What would a completely useless piece of shit like saeb erekat be doing if he couldn't pretend to be a "top negotiator" for the fakestinians?  What has he accomplished over the past 30 years or so in his role?

Even more to the point, how much aid dollars will the fakestinians get the day a peace accord is signed?  Does anyone sane think that they would willingly give up those handouts?  Why do you think arafat never did and never would sign a peace deal?  It's hard to convince deluded, clueless people to support you and shower money on you if the "revolution" is over, and a peace deal signed.  That's a cash cow the fakestinians will ride for the next 1,000 years if they can, all the way from suha arafat's $100K per month budget for life provided by the PA onward.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...










 The nations of the world do not think of Israel as a nation to the 1967 ceasefire lines at all, they accept Israel full stop.  Tthe Jews were a nation in 1948 and had sovereignty over their lands.
 Your words show how little regard you hold for international laws when they are in Israel's favour as the LoN granted Isreal 22% of palestine in 1922, the rest went to the arab muslims. The delineation is available for anyone willing to look for it. The UN illegally tried to partition the Jewish national home in 1947 and the arab muslims showed their views by invading the mandate of palestine with the intention of wiping out the Jews.

There is already a two state solution in place with the arab muslims getting 78% of palestine and the Jews having the remainder. The world accepted that from 1922 to 1947 so why the change of heart in the mid 1940's, was it a rise in Nazism amongst the world leaders that led to the Jews being nearly wiped out. A stain on the whole world that is raising its ugly head once more, fired by arab nationalism and their attempt at world domination. The first step that must be taken by the world nations is to get the arab league to revoke the Khartoum agreement and leave the way open for the arab muslims to start negotiations with Israel without that there can not be a start on peace talks.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

esthermoon said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> ...


The Israelis have already written it off as a dead loss.


----------



## Lipush (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.
> ...


----------



## esthermoon (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.


Unfortunately I think you can be right


----------



## Lipush (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



So Jews returning to Israel is the problem now? That is such an Anti Israeli Bullshit! Israel agreed to the 1948 two states solution, the Arabs refused, the opened a war, lost, and then for 70 years whine about us not willing to lose to them! 

That is like the little sibling crying "It all started when he slapped me back".


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



*I feel like not trying to answer your long post because you wrote that my "dumb opinion" doesn't matter.*

The point wasn't to insult you.  And there are many many topics we can discuss that perhaps we can reach some conclusion.

The problem with this specific topic, is that everyone's opinion on it, really doesn't matter.   The opinions of the people in Israel (Arabs and Jews), are the only opinions that matter.   They are the ones being attacked, and attacking back.

If I have a guy move into the house next door to me, and he is set and determined to rape my daughter, and I'm set and determined to stop him.... you or anyone else coming along saying "Well I think you should accept him", I'm not going to care what you think.  Me and this dude next door are going to be having a war. 
*
Despite what you and the Israelis think, the world nations have come to accept Israel as a sovereign state but with the 1967 cease-fire armistice line.*

That's like saying you don't agree that Crimea is part of Russia now.    Do you think the Russians care that we don't accept Crimea as part of Russia?   Do you seem them pulling back?  Do you see them withdrawing troops?  Do you see them stopping the fighting in Ukraine?

That's my point to you.

What you, and the rest of the world "agrees" or "accepts", doesn't matter to either the Jews or the Arabs.

The Jews see the entire land as their rightful ancient home land, and they stake a claim on all of it, whether you or the rest of the world 'agrees' it's theirs or not.

The Arabs see the entire Israeli nation as unacceptable, and they will fight against it until they die, whether you or the rest of the world 'accepts' it or not.

The problem with the "world opinion" is that you are looking at it from the outside, from an outside perspective, with outside views and values.

You need to look at this conflict from the inside perspective, with inside views and perspectives.

Which is why I have said the "two-state solution" is simply not a solution.  It simply isn't.  All you are going to do, is setup a new way for the Arabs to arm themselves, and form an organized military to fight the Jews with.   And the Jews will fight back, and the Arabs will lose, and one of two things will happen... Either we'll end up back where we are now, with Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank, or the conflict will draw in the world, and end up a world war.

It's simply NOT a solution.   One of these two groups must win, and the other must lose.

The only good news is that a record number of Palestinians are leaving Gaza.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


The Israelis seem not to care about the views of other countries except the USA yet they have a habit of defending Israel through Friends of Israel in foreign political parties and making many accusations about "antisemitism" in other countries, an accusation which puts the fear of God into European politicians given the history of the Final Solution. So, what other countries think does seem to matter to Israelis at the same time.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly neither party wants 2 states, or peace.
> ...



I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.

Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.

BUT

There are other obstacles to negotiation that need to be recognized.

Lack of a negotiating partner who can speak for all the Palestinians.
Continued violence against Israeli civilians.

I think a 3-state solution should be considered...


----------



## fncceo (Jan 14, 2017)

Coyote said:


> I think a 3-state solution should be considered...



How about a solution where the Israelis and Palestinians work it out for themselves and where the rest of the world keeps their sticky beaks out of it.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 14, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I think a 3-state solution should be considered...
> ...



It affects the rest of the world...and...I doubt a just solution would be arrived at.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > TheOldSchool said:
> ...


The PLO can negotiate with the Israelis if they want to waste another half century.

There is continued violence by the IDF and settlers against Palestinians.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 14, 2017)

Coyote said:


> It affects the rest of the world



How ... precisely ... does it affect the rest of the world?  Any more than any other regional dispute?  Why not have 75 nation summits over Ukraine or Kashmir or the Chagos Archipelago?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2017)

Coyote said:


> I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.
> 
> Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.
> 
> ...



The fact that there are Jewish people who might one day be living in a State of Palestine is in no way a barrier to peace or a two State solution -- unless the Palestinians make it one by refusing to permit Jews to live in their State.  

But the reason behind the argument that they ARE a barrier is truly an obstacle.  And they are part of the same problem which leads to continued violence against Israeli civilians.  Its all cut from the same ideological cloth.  

The conflict won't be solved until the Palestinians make some ideological changes.  The problem with the Palestinians trying to make these ideological changes is that a good portion of Palestinian/Arab/Muslim society is vehemently against making these changes.  They continue to hold to the, let's be honest here, extremist idea that the Jewish people absolutely can not have a nation, nor have self-determination, nor have even a single acre of land unless thoroughly subjugated under Arab Muslim rule, as per the example of modern Iran.  They continue to hold to the extremist idea that the Jewish people had no history in the land and thus have no rights to it.  They continue to believe that there was never a Temple on the Temple Mount and that Jewish religion and history is corrupt and fundamentally untrue in fact, as well as theology. 

The problem for a government of Palestine is that if they negotiate for peace with Israel half the population will be satisfied and the other half will see it as a betrayal and start a rebellion.  (witness the events in Gaza after the 2005 Israeli withdrawal).  It is the risk of a civil war within Palestine and the resulting aftermath, which is good for no one (again witness Gaza).  A government of Palestine, in even negotiating a peace treaty, let alone accomplishing one, is writing the letter of its own demise, at best and potentially far, far worse.  If the choice is between a civil war within your own country, a war you are probably going to lose, and fighting an enemy -- its pretty darn easy to go after the "enemy".  

The idea of "land for peace" died with the Gaza withdrawal.  Israel is not going to play that game again.  Because Israel is fully aware that the problem is not land, or settlements.  Or Israel.  Or Jews.  Its extremists.  Its extremist thinking.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2017)

Coyote said:


> It affects the rest of the world...and...I doubt a just solution would be arrived at.



On the contrary, the only just solution would be a mutually satisfactory one agreed upon by both parties.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2017)

Coyote said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You just said a dirty word...just solution.

All of the so called peace process is to see what lever of injustice can we get the Palestinians to accept.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 14, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.
> ...


Arab Muslims all over the Middle East and their governments live in peace with Israel so there is no reason to deny Palestinian Arabs will not do the same given the opportunity by their occupiers.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 14, 2017)

TheOldSchool said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > TheOldSchool said:
> ...


Over 90% of Israelis are NOT religious in any way whatsoever.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



That is not what I have read.   Last I checked, according to a 2007 survey, 50% of self-proclaimed secular Jews, practiced Judaism.   

25% of the population were orthodox Jews.   That percentage is just of Jews only, and doesn't include 17% that are Israeli Muslim, 2% Israeli Christian, and 1% Israeli Druzi.

Based on that survey alone, I would conservatively estimate that more than 50% of Israelis are very religious.   At the very least, 1/3rd are.

And that survey is 10 years old.   The numbers were growing, not declining, on religious views.   My guess is, a greater number today are practicing religion, than in 2007.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



That's true.   Israel does not care about the views of other countries.

Which country determines how to defend its citizens, by asking the opinion of Russia?  Or China?  Or Saudi Arabia?  Or anywhere?

If Mexico right now fired rockets into Texas, do you think we would be asking the UN what they think about it?

NO.   We'd be rolling tanks into Mexico, in a matter of days. 

Did Russia care what other countries thought when they claimed Crimea?

Did the UK care what Europe thought, when they voted to leave the EU?

Did Saudi Arabia care what other countries thought, when they started a war in Yemen?

Across the entire planet, you don't see countries caring much what other countries think.

Yet with Israel, you think they should?  Why are you singling them out?  Why is the standard different for Israel, than everyone else?


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 14, 2017)

Coyote said:


> I think it's more complicated than the article lets on - it's a bit one sided.Yes the settlements are an obstacle, a big one from the Palestinian perspective as it literally prevents a second viable state and yes, Netanyahu has been giving lip service to a two state solution and buying time by ramping up the settlements.BUTThere are other obstacles to negotiation that need to be recognized.Lack of a gotiating partner who can speak for all the Palestinians.Continued violence against Israeli civilians.I think a 3-state solution should be considered...



This is the prototype of the Useful Idiot; "we NEED the 2 state solution, it will solve the conflict! I say because I'm an idiot and too stupid to look at anything other than what the NYT editorial board tells me to think"....

Idiot asshole, tell us three things:

1-what exactly have the arab muslims ever done as a concession to Israel?  Israel has ceded land in sinai, gaza, and lebanon - what have the arab muslims done?

2-what exactly have the fakestinians done to show they are even remotely trying to build a functional state?

3-who else in the mideast have the arab muslims accepted as sovereign?  I see 22 arab muslim countries, there are tens of millions of non-muslims there - yet other than the jews in Israel - NOT ONE SINGLE NON-MUSLIM enjoys self-rule, not one.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 14, 2017)

fncceo said:


> How ... precisely ... does it affect the rest of the world?  Any more than any other regional dispute?  Why not have 75 nation summits over Ukraine or Kashmir or the Chagos Archipelago?



It only "affects the rest of the world" because laughably stupid people like "coyote" the moron allow the muslims to drag it into every fucking issue, letting themselves be manipulated like a puppet on a string.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 14, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



Likely they won't accept it, which is why they will be eliminated.   Over a million Palestinians in a recent survey, said they planned to move.  Leave Palestine.   Which is what they should do.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 14, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Arab Muslims all over the Middle East and their governments live in peace with Israel so there is no reason to deny Palestinian Arabs will not do the same given the opportunity by their occupiers.



They had the opportunity with Gaza.  They have the opportunity right now.  Right now!  Live in peace.  Just do it.  No more attacks on Israeli citizens.  Starting today.  Why is this so hard?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


That isn't good news. Palestinians outside of country are a bigger threat to Israel than those inside.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Arab Muslims all over the Middle East and their governments live in peace with Israel so there is no reason to deny Palestinian Arabs will not do the same given the opportunity by their occupiers.
> ...


It doesn't matter what they do. They will still get their houses bulldozed to make room for more illegal settlements.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I don't know.  But that is the only solution.  Once Gaza and West bank are annexed, complaining about a lost cause should eventually go away.

You don't hear much about Crimea anymore, do you?


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



And they should.  It is rightfully Israeli land.

Plus, if you attack Israel, you should have your house bulldozed.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


They do not need to attack so called Israel. The root of Israel's settler colonialism is to get rid of the Palestinians and move in illegal Israeli settlers. What the Palestinians do or do not do does not change Israel's standard policy.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


The old will die and the young will forget.

That was said about 70 years ago.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



But that's because they have not removed them yet.   They are still in Gaza and West Bank.   Yeah, as long as they stay there, stay shooting rockets, and stay in constant conflict, then it isn't going away.

But Israel isn't going to just disband, and let the Arabs wipe them out.

So eventually they will leave or they will die.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


So my I assume that you side with the thieves and liars?


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I think that does happen sometimes.

I haven't seen nearly as much proof of this, as claimed, but I think it does happen now and then.

Israel hasn't been given much reason to work with the Palestinian authority, and Hamas is a terrorist organization at heart.

So naturally it's difficult to get building permits approved.   Thus many buildings are built without permit or property right.   Which then causes those buildings to be demolished.

However, this is the land of Israel.  It is rightfully Israeli land.

The Bible has predicted this for thousands on thousands of years.   You need to either be Israeli citizens, and live under Israeli law... or leave.  You are not going to win this fight.   I promise you.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 The first step to even sitting at the same table is to get the arab league to rescind the Khartoum resolution. Until that is done the talking is just a waste of everyones time


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 We leave that to you, who is the worst islamonazi propagandist on any board


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You can call them whatever you want.  I'm on the side of G-d.   G-d wrote a book.  In that book he said certain things would happen.

Those certain things are happening.    There is only one group of people on the face of this Earth, that has been living in the land of Israel consistently for over 3.5 thousand years.      The Jews.

The Arabs in Israel today, are liars and thieves.   They are not indigenous.   They moved there for Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and Lebanon.   

The Jews are the only people with a claim to Israel.  And the book says:
This is what the Lord says: As I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will give them all the prosperity I have promised them. Once more fields will be bought in this land of which you say, ‘It is a desolate waste, without people or animals, for it has been given into the hands of the Babylonians.’ Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the Lord.”​
And it is happening.  Right now, as we speak.

In fact, there is some parts that seem to imply the West Bank, and Gaza.

For example Zephaniah chapter 2, down at verse 8:

“I have heard the insults of Moab
 and the taunts of the Ammonites,
who insulted my people
 and made threats against their land.
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
 declares the Lord Almighty,
 the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
 the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
 a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
 the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”​Where is Moab and Ammon?   Just next to where the West Bank is.

And what he declares will happen, is as you have pointed out... happening.

As for Gaza:

Woe to you who live by the sea,
 you Kerethite people;
the word of the Lord is against you,
 Canaan, land of the Philistines.
He says, “I will destroy you,
 and none will be left.”
The land by the sea will become pastures
 having wells for shepherds
 and pens for flocks.
That land will belong
 to the remnant of the people of Judah;
 there they will find pasture.
In the evening they will lie down
 in the houses of Ashkelon.
The Lord their God will care for them;
 he will restore their fortunes.​The land of the Philistines is where Gaza is.  Ashkelon is a city just a few miles north of Gaza.  Kerethite were allies of the Philitines and Egypt.  Ironic given that Ashkelon was a forward base for Egyptian military.

They were destroyed, and Ashkelon is now a Jewish city.

The rest has not yet come to pass... but it will.

Now again, you want to say I'm with thieves and liars.... that's your take.  You are allowed that opinion obviously.

In reality, I'm on the side of this book.    And here's the kicker... it's coming true whether on I'm this side, or that side, or any side.   The book is coming true.  Even if I was completely against it.... it's still coming true.

You have to determine whether you will fight against G-d and his book, or if you are on his side.  Because this is going to happen whether you want it to, or not.

That passage is 2,000 years old.  It hasn't changed in thousands of years, and it's happening exactly as G-d said it would.

What you think you are going to do about it, is your deal.  For me... I'm on G-d's side.  Not that he needs my help.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> You can call them whatever you want. I'm on the side of G-d.


Oh jeese, not another one of *those.*


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > You can call them whatever you want. I'm on the side of G-d.
> ...



Absolutely.   You can't argue with the prophesies can you?  

It's ok.   I don't blame you for moving on.  Obviously you can't deny a prediction thousands of years old.  Nor can you deny it's coming true. 

I would suggest you read the prophesies, just to see what they say.  See what it claims will happen in the middle east.   Then you can determine for yourself if they happen.

So no hard feelings.  Best to you.


----------



## Lipush (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Finally a good realistic post


----------



## Lipush (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



It matters because we're not on the globe, and it does not matter because, bluntly and honestly speaking, the Gentiles rarely decide in benefit of the Jews.


----------



## Lipush (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



And there is permanent terror acts and incitements against civilians in Israel by the Palestinians.

How conveniently you ignore that.


----------



## Lipush (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Arab states who have peace with Israel came to the solution of peace because they had something to lose and by benefiting from peace they chose the benefit of the people.

Hamas does not care for the benefit of the Palestinians. It never had.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > You can call them whatever you want. I'm on the side of G-d.
> ...











 What did your fake prophet ever say would happen in time, so you could be ready for the end times. He could not even prophesy his own death


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Unfortunately, you cannot compare Crimea or Kurdistan or Northern Cyprus or Tibet or Western Sahara or Kashmir to Israel and the West Bank.  70 countries will not participate in a conference about those territories.  The world has always been OBSESSED with Israel.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 15, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> The world has always been OBSESSED with Israel.



Actually, just obsessed with one particular ethnic group in Israel.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



It's not only a Divine Right issue.  For 2,000 years the Jews have been subject to pogroms, blood libels, inquisitions, Crusades, expulsions, massacres, and a Holocaust.  They want only one tiny corner of the world to call their own.  My own grandparents were forced out of Europe and they couldn't get visas to America at that time (now it's much easier), so they HAD to go to Israel.  Ethiopian Jews went there because of famine, Russian Jews when the USSR collapsed, and French Jews now due to anti-Semitism.  One dot on the globe.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


It is important for most countries to have political cover for their activities and it is the reason for them to engage in propaganda. What other people think of a country justifies all the work of their outreach over and above the governments of other countries to persuade the citizens of other countries to have a positive attitude toward the propagandists' country.

No country needs the consent or approval of other countries to defend themselves, of course, but it is best to have allies and failing that, at least a favorable opinion of foreign citizens to put pressure on the governments of potential enemies. When it comes to a shooting war, propaganda goes into overdrive.

Mexico is a friendly neighbor of the USA and it is inconceivable that it would fire rockets at its most powerful ally.

Russia cared enough about what others thought of its annexation of Crimea to use propaganda in its justification and put out its version of its action in defiance of western democracies. You have only to read the Russian version repeated by members on this discussion board to see that their propaganda worked.  The acted like the Russians of Soviet days who had Radio Moscow justify tanks in the streets of Prague in 1968. Today they use Russia Today and Sputnik news.

Leaving the European Union was not wanted by the British government but it is happening because of a referendum.

The Saud family only cares about the governments who buy its oil and supply it with weapons such as outlawed cluster bombs from the UK and the USA. The Saudis have bought these two western allies with oil dollars.

Across  the entire planet countries which are potential enemies or who need the support of democracies will try to get citizens on their side because it is the citizens who eventually make the decisions to form governments. The Israelis have some concern about citizens in democracies supporting them but which is why they use the antisemitic card against popular initiatives like Boycott Divestment Sanctions (BDS) and even try to 'take down' politicians judged to be unfriendly to Israel but more importantly, Israel works hard through the Jewish Lobby to keep American politicians on side, knowing that without American cover its conduct would be resisted by the world.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 15, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


The dot on the globe is a lot bigger than Gaza and it was already the property of the indigenous Arabs.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Forget the Bible. Establishing a Jewish state in the middle of Arab land has caused all the bloodshed. The land is rightfully Arab regardless of the Biblical myths. By going one step further and occupying the West Bank and blockading Gaza, the Israelis went one step too far. The world has had its fill of the half century brutal occupation and if the two-state solution is not saved then neither will Israel even as a pretended democracy. It is probably too late for the Paris conference to day to do anything.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



If you are suggesting that the geographic area called Pal'istan was the "property of the indigenous Arabs", that would be wrong. That geographic area was controlled at various times by various invaders, conquerors, more recently by the Ottoman Turks. They released all rights and title to the area which fell under control of the Mandatory. 

This silly reference to "indigenous Arabs owning the land" is another falsehood reiterated by those pressing an agenda.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



_Brutal occupation_™

_Rightfully Arab land_™

".... because I say so".


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > TheOldSchool said:
> ...


Totally incorrect.
The overwhelming numbers that are increasing in observance are from the already observant family as their birthrate is far higher than the secular Jews.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...











 Complete of topic waffle because you dont want to be seen as one of those that have followed the Jew hatred mantra. You are found out and dont like being stared at all the time, having the whispers start and the furtive looks. As for "taking down" politicians in the UK it means dishing the dirt on them so they are more open to suggestion and not as you in the US use it to shoot them down. Do you know that islam pays more in bribes to US politicians to get preferential treatment than Israel does. Hardlt surprising seeing as islam is founded on cheating


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Why do you call Israel "a pretended democracy"?


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...







 Not under international law it wasnt, which is why the Ottomans did not allow them to be a nation


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 When was it granted to them then, a simple enough question as the Ottomans denied them sovereignty of the land


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 15, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...










 Because they are the latest buzz words on the hate sites


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Establishing a Jewish state in the middle of Arab land has caused all the bloodshed.



Sure it has c-nt, just as the Israeli state "forced" the arab musims to slaughter jews 1,000 years ago, and again repeatedly, and the yazidis, coptics, maronites, chaldeans, maneachans, azeri, bahai and all those other groups because of Israel.  You're a bottom-feeding, lying pile of shit.



> The land is rightfully Arab regardless of the Biblical myths.



Why is that, c-nt?  Because of your mythical, conjured "indigenous" arabs?  Its scum like you that posts shit like that, who would never make such a laughably false claim in person, because its complete fucking garbage from a lying scumbag.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 15, 2017)

Phoenall said:


> Not under international law it wasnt, which is why the Ottomans did not allow them to be a nation



There were no mass of "indigenous" arab muslims living there, in fact, it was a shithole up to the early 1900s until the jews brought modern farming methods; the truth is that to the arabs, it was a place for those too poor to live elsewhere, like a wasteland.  There was a joke for years amongst the Turks that the wealthy ate in Istanbul and their dogs in Jerusalem, because no one wanted to live there.  Now the fucking arabs want it because the jews built something there?

This is no different than Lebanon, when the parasite muslims - who've never built a fucking thing for themselves, and simply conquer adjacent civilizations to acquire new technologies/methods, moved en masse and began to make demands once their numbers reached a certain percentage of the population.

The arab muslims have no credibility nor legitimate claim, and should move back to egypt, jordan and syria where they came from.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 15, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Israel is not a true democracy because 20% of its citizens are treated as 2nd class. You see, in a true democracy mob rule is countered by civil rights for minorities. Even the state of Israel calls itself a "Jewish" country, thereby discriminating against the 20% who are not Jews. Israel is not dissimilar to the sovereign state of Alabama half a century ago.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Why don't you move to Syria or Jordan for one year and then tell us how great life is.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 15, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Not under international law it wasnt, which is why the Ottomans did not allow them to be a nation
> ...



The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are Levantines, not Arabians. They are called Arabs because they adopted the language and some of the culture of the Arabian conquerors over time. Before the Muslim conquest the people of Palestine  practiced Christianity (some still do) and spoke Aramaic and Greek. Before Christianity became the state religion and Roman citizens were required to convert in 300 BC or so, they practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Roman and various other religions.  

You have absolutely no knowledge of history.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



And yet everything written down for thousands of years, is coming true in explicit detail.

But ok, lets look beyond that.

By what logic is the land 'rightfully' Arab?   They are new to the land.  Newer than the Jews who have been in the land for over 3,000 years.   In fact they are the only group of people who have been in the land consistently since 1,500 BC.

Moreover, the Arabs have tons of land.





If the Jews don't have a rightful claim to the land, then what exactly would give you a rightful claim? 
If Israel isn't the right place for the Jews, then where would you suggest?

It would be hard for me to imagine any other group, when any greater established claim, with a greater body of evidence to support that claim, than the Jews on Israel.

The native American Indians have a far less established claim on America, than the Jews do on Israel, because the native Americans didn't have nearly the amount of recorded and examinable history.

Every time Jewish history says there is a city at X spot, they go and dig, and find a city.    Every time the Bible or some other book, says there is a civilization or people group at such and such location, they dig there and find it.

Originally, in 1917 when the move towards a national homeland for the Jews was first pushed, many Arabs around the world agreed with this.   After all, a brief history of 'Palestine' shows that barely 300,000 people lived there, the land was desolate and empty, with spare populations.  Jerusalem itself was empty of people, comparable to China's now infamous ghost cities.

The Arabs at that time showed the same mentality that left-wingers today have.   If it is worthless and ruined, they don't want it.  Until someone shows up, and starts making money off it, then they want to control it, regulate it, and tax it.

When Israel was deserted, and turning into desert and swamp land, they didn't have a problem with the Jews coming back to Palestine.

Then when the Jews did start coming back, the economy started to grow, and the land became valuable, suddenly Arabs started migrating to Palestine, and suddenly maybe we don't want these Jews coming here.

There's a reason why the non-jewish population in Israel not only didn't increase, but fell between the 1500s, and the 1880s.   The land was ruined (just as the Bible said it would be), and the non-Jews didn't want it.

The Jews on the other hand continued in the land forever.

Additionally, when the Jews started coming back in large numbers, they started working the land, and repairing the infrastructure.   Suddenly the Arabs which had been neglecting the land, now that the Jews made it worth something, started flooding into Palestine.

Now after the Jews start making the land worth something again, magically all these Arabs show up, call themselves Palestinians, and claim they have a right to the land?

Sounds like opportunistic thievery to me.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 15, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



No, I get that.    I agree with most of what you said.

The only problem is, they are still not Palestinians.  According to the Ottoman census, (if I am remembering this right), more than half of non-jewish population of Palestine were recent immigrants.  And only 20% didn't consider themselves immigrants.  Meaning the other 30% were not-so-recent immigrants.

Point being that those people are still not "Palestinians".   They are Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and Iraqis, and others.   But they are not Palestinians, and have as little claim to the land, as a Russian showing up and planting a flag in Crimea.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



On the map:  Where is Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Somalia, Bahrain, etc.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> It doesn't matter what they do. They will still get their houses bulldozed to make room for more illegal settlements.



And that is one of the ideological changes the Arab Muslim Palestinians must make.  They are not perpetual victims and it matters very much what they do.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> They do not need to attack so called Israel. The root of Israel's settler colonialism is to get rid of the Palestinians and move in illegal Israeli settlers. What the Palestinians do or do not do does not change Israel's standard policy.



More ideology which has to go away.  That Israelis (Jews) intend ethnic cleansing and genocide.  Or that it is standard policy.  Demonstrably not.  Israel has 1.2 million Arabs living amongst the Jews there.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> So my I assume that you side with the thieves and liars?



Oh look.  More ideology which has to go away.  That Israelis (Jews) are thieves and liars.  That one goes WAY back.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The land is rightfully Arab ...



And the whole idea that there is such a thing as "Arab" land has definitely got to go if we are to solve this problem.


----------



## Bloodrock44 (Jan 15, 2017)

Can it save a 2 state solution? I hope not. Palestainians don't have a legitimate claim to one inch of Israeli land. Kick them out!


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The land is rightfully Arab ...
> ...


Some people have maxed out their allotted brain cells.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> The only problem is, they are still not Palestinians.  According to the Ottoman census, (if I am remembering this right), more than half of non-jewish population of Palestine were recent immigrants.



The best illustration of this is an example of two men who immigrated into the territory (now part of Area C) in the late 1920's and early 1930's.  They bought plots of land, essentially side-by-side, worked it and passed it down through their children to the present day.

One of these men, and all his descendants, is considered a foreign invader; a settler (now a dirty word); a thief and a liar; some have even called him and his descendants a cancer growing on the land.

The other man, and all his descendants, is considered a "Palestinian" with full and inalienable rights to the land.

Both immigrated from outside the territory, neither had parents or grandparents or great-grandparents living on that land, neither practiced Islam.  The only difference between them is that one of these men was a Jew.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 15, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It affects the rest of the world
> ...



It is one of the longest running conflicts.

It has been a source of fuel for terrorism.

It's a  contributing factor to the instability in the region.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> It would be hard for me to imagine any other group, when any greater established claim, with a greater body of evidence to support that claim, than the Jews on Israel.



This.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem is, they are still not Palestinians.  According to the Ottoman census, (if I am remembering this right), more than half of non-jewish population of Palestine were recent immigrants.
> ...


Has anyone said that the ROR only applies to Palestinian Muslims and Christians.

I think all people have a ROR.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Israel is not a true democracy because 20% of its citizens are treated as 2nd class. You see, in a true democracy mob rule is countered by civil rights for minorities. Even the state of Israel calls itself a "Jewish" country, thereby discriminating against the 20% who are not Jews.



How many lies can one count in this garbage post?

Those fakestinians in the west bank/gaza are NOT Israeli citizens, retarded idiot assholel  The 20% of Israels who ARE arab muslims get to vote and have the same rights as the jewish Israelis.  

How come the non-muslims in muslim countries don't have those same rights?  Answer us that, fucking idiot.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Has anyone said that the ROR only applies to Palestinian Muslims and Christians.
> 
> I think all people have a ROR.



Please clarify.  Do you believe the Jewish people, from anywhere in the world, have a right to return to their ancestral homeland in Israel/Palestine?


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 15, 2017)

Coyote said:


> It is one of the longest running conflicts.



Which means what exactly?  That leftist dogshit like you allows the arab muslims to perpetuate their fake grievances instead of telling them the fucking game of BS is over?



> It has been a source of fuel for terrorism.It's a  contributing factor to the instability in the region.



Sure it has asshole, just like it was in 1534 when the arab muslims slaughtered a few hundred jews, and in Lebanon where the arab muslims slaughtered a few thousand christians.

No wonder you never address any of the points in my points - you're way the fuck too stupid.  Weakest moderator on any political forum I've ever seen, did you have to pay them to give you the title, asshole?  If scum like you ceased to exist, this world would be such a better place.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone said that the ROR only applies to Palestinian Muslims and Christians.
> ...


The ROR applies to homes and properties from before the conflict.

I have no right as a Christian to "return" to the birthplace of Christianity just because I share a religion. The holy land would be pretty crowded if all of the Christians in the world made that claim. The Idea is ridiculous.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



We are not discussing the RoR in this case.  We are discussing people being understood and treated differently based on their being Jewish or not.  We are discussing a fundamental inequality, not only under the law but under the rules of society. 

Address that.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


So, who are treating Jews differently?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> So, who are treating Jews differently?



Are you trying to argue that no one discussing the Arab/Israel conflict treats Jews differently?  

Are you trying to claim that "settlements" are differentiated based on criteria other than "Jewishness"?   Why is a village built by Jews a "settlement" and a village built by immigrants from other places at the same time considered "Palestinian"?  Name one non-Jewish village in Area C which is considered an illegal "settlement".


----------



## Eloy (Jan 15, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Your post is too long to address every point but I can comment in two.
1) No one is arguing that there were no Jews in Palestine but the area was overwhelmingly Arab during the time of the great immigration of European Jews after the Second World War.
2) America took in Jews where they did very well and it seems to be a country that would welcome them away from all the history of the Final Solution.

The Paris Conference today was about getting Israel to accept Palestine as a state.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > So, who are treating Jews differently?
> ...


The problem with this thinking is that it is not how the Zionists who control the Israeli government view the settlements. For them and the settlers, they are not Jewish communities in Palestine but are thought of as part of Israel.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy,  et al,

I have to chuckle at this; but not in a humiliating way.  Both sides have made commitments.



Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*




 ​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Name one non-Jewish village in Area C which is considered an illegal "settlement".


Israel bulldozes them all the time.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Name one non-Jewish village in Area C which is considered an illegal "settlement".
> ...



I gotta hand it to you, for one who complains about deflection, you are a master of it.  

The question on the table is why two virtually identical immigrants to the territory are viewed so completely differently based on their ethnicity.  They are viewed so by Palestinians, by Team Palestine and generally by the international community, including the UN.

Are you trying to argue that they are not, in fact, viewed differently?  If so, provide evidence for your case.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Palestinians build on their own land.

Israeli settlements are built on stolen land.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The problem with this thinking is that it is not how the Zionists who control the Israeli government view the settlements. For them and the settlers, they are not Jewish communities in Palestine but are thought of as part of Israel.



Well, all demonization of "Zionists" aside -- you can just call them Israelis, you know, that's what they are -- yes, and no.

Yes, there are certain sections of Area C which are being spilled over from Israel and will likely become part of Israel in the event of a solution which divides Israel into at least two more parts.  Israel makes no bones about this. There are also certain sections of Area C which are being spilled over from Area B (eventual Palestine).  Why is no one calling those Arab "settlements" illegal? 

But that does not apply to every outpost and settlement.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinians build on their own land.
> 
> Israeli settlements are built on stolen land.



Read the question.  Try, at least, to comprehend.  We are talking about immigrants.  Why are some immigrants (the Jewish ones) considered foreign invaders and some considered legit Palestinians even when they immigrated to the same land at the same time?


----------



## Hollie (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



_Palestinians build on their own land."
_
Except when they don't.

_"Israeli settlements are built on stolen land."_

Except when they aren't. 


Palestinians Are Building Illegal Settlements to Extend Their Claims to Jerusalem

*Palestinians Are Building Illegal Settlements to Extend Their Claims to Jerusalem*

DEC. 8 2016

Just about everything frequently alleged against Israeli settlements in the West Bank can be said, truthfully, about recent Palestinian construction on the outskirts of Jerusalem, writes *Bassam Tawil*. Such construction is illegal; it is intended to impede the possibility of a two-state solution; and it often takes place on land stolen from private Palestinian owners.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> 1) No one is arguing that there were no Jews in Palestine but the area was overwhelmingly Arab during the time of the great immigration of European Jews after the Second World War.



Lying, worthless c-nt.  The mass migration of jews from Europe came in the 1920s and 30s, you worthless fucking stupid turd.  The largest migration of jews after WW2 was due to the ethnic cleansing of jews from arab muslim countries, which a piece of shit like you won't admit.



> 2) America took in Jews where they did very well and it seems to be a country that would welcome them away from all the history of the Final Solution.



Really idiot asshole, is that what your masters in teheran are telling you to write?

Fucking dogshit, the jews could not enter the very isolationist US.  Scum like you really needs to be put to a most painful death, you lying fucking garbage.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 15, 2017)

*Britain dismisses Paris conference*
The British refused to take part in the Paris conference and was present only as an observer. No reason was stated for this decision but it seems clear that Benjamin Netanyahu's opinion that the summit was "rigged" against Israel played a part.
Britain also stated that it was a mistake to have an international conference before Donald Trump becomes president.
Another criticism Britain had was that Benjamin Netanyahu was not present.
No one can doubt that Britain is a Friend of Israel and a partner of the incoming American administration.
*USA promises Netanyahu to veto any further criticism of Israeli settlements at the UN*
John Kerry, Secretary of State for the next four days has given his word that the USA will return to form and veto every proposal before the UN Security Council which criticizes Israel. Kerry also insisted that the document produced by the Paris summit should include a criticism of violence caused by Palestinians.
No one can doubt that the USA is a Friend of Israel.
Israel-Palestinian conflict: Summit warns against unilateral actions - BBC News

*Verdict*: The conference was a damp squib.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Read the question.  Try, at least, to comprehend.  We are talking about immigrants.  Why are some immigrants (the Jewish ones) considered foreign invaders and some considered legit Palestinians even when they immigrated to the same land at the same time?



The garbage you are speaking to will never give you honest answers to your questions; that scum will deflect and change the topic repeatedly. 

Their programmed lying answer is that few if any, arab muslims immigrated - "they were there first, and the vast majority of their population growth was due to births"....  Its like you are trying to get a mongoloid to build a space rocket, they are physically, mentally and totally incapable of doing so.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 15, 2017)

Coyote said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



It is one of the longest running conflicts. --- the dispute over Kashmir by India and Pakistan is older

It has been a source of fuel for terrorism. -- also has generated significant terrorist activities -- including recent attacks on the Indian national parliament building itself

It's a  contributing factor to the instability in the region -- is a major source of regional instability and has led directly to Pakistan and India both acquiring nuclear weapons.

Yet ... where is the international outrage?  Where are the condemnations, UN resolutions, and 70 nation circle jerks decrying this most heinous of all human catastrophes?

They don't exist ... do they?  Most people in the world have never heard of Kashmir.  And Kashmir is just one of dozens of regional conflicts with the potential to erupt into world conflict ... why only concentrate on the single conflict where Jews are involved?  Motives?


----------



## fncceo (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinians build on their own land



Let's see their deed.  I can show you mine.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 15, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...



I think there are some differences here.  The Kashmir dispute involves two nations fighting over a piece of land.

The Israeli Palestinian conflict involves one nation, and a people without a nation.  It's more complex.

The Kashmir conflict also, is limited in effect to just those two countries.  It is not the cause of instability beyond the participants.

There are also no refugees involved and no major human rights issues to resolve.  

Now I'll agree that there are other conflicts that deserve more attention but are sadly ignored for some reason: the long ongoing conflict in the Congo, which has resulted in horrific brutality.  The treatment of the Rohinga by the Burmese.  But just because there are other conflicts doesn't mean this one should be ignored.

I think it would be good to remove one major source of anti-semitic fuel in the Middle East...don't you?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians build on their own land.
> ...


Palestinian immigration is an Israeli propaganda thing.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 15, 2017)

Coyote said:


> I think there are some differences here. The Kashmir dispute involves two nations fighting over a piece of land.
> 
> The Israeli Palestinian conflict involves one nation, and a people without a nation. It's more complex.
> 
> ...




Actually, not -- the "people without a nation" have always been the Jews.  The term Palestinians (the Greek word for Israel a thousand years before Arabs even came to the region) originally meant Jews exclusively. Then for many centuries until 1967 meant anyone living in the region of Palestine (Franks, Byzantines, Turks, Jews, Arabs, Buddhist, Coptics, Druze ...).  Those who NOW refer to themselves as Palestinians are in fact Arabs who currently have 22 sovereign nations in which they are the ruling majority.

Wrong -- The contested area of Kashmir borders with China and Afghanistan ... China has already fought a war with India over the Aksai Chin region of Kashmir and lays claim to that territory. Any escalation of tensions in that area would undoubtedly bring China (a major nuclear power) into the conflict as they hope to make territorial gains.

Also wrong .. Indian partition ... the genesis of the conflict created MILLIONS of refugees as well as the deaths of hundreds of thousands.  More specifically, thousands have been displaced from Kashmir since 1947 and thousands more have died in that conflict.  I would consider that a MAJOR human rights issue to resolve, wouldn't you?

Couldn't be more wrong on this ... if you believe antisemitism in the Middle East (or anywhere else in the world) is in any way caused by the current conflict between Palestinians and Israel that it's hard to tell if your statement is based on gross ignorance of the conflict or a perfidious attempt to bury the facts.  Either way, that statement alone negates anyone taking you seriously on the topic.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Coyote said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I believe that Palestine is the only remaining settler colonial project. This involves a large, unresolved refugee population. I don't see any resolution to the problem other than decolonization. The resolution is already laid out in international law and UN resolutions. Sadly, these will not be mentioned in Paris. They will only push for what has failed for the last 80 years and it will fail again.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> only remaining settler colonial project



Nearly every nation on Earth is a 'settler colonial project'.

Ever hear of Canada, United States, Australia, England, India, Tibet ... shall I go on?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

fncceo said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > only remaining settler colonial project
> ...


OK, but it was not until around the early 20th century that it became illegal and those had mostly internally displaced rather than refugees.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> I don't see any resolution to the problem other than decolonization.



Am I the only one who sees a sanitary code word for "the Jewish people must be ethnically cleansed from 'Palestine'"?


----------



## skye (Jan 15, 2017)

Nope

no two state

no way

never!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

send palestinians back to Jordan or any other place....

trouble makers that they are


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see any resolution to the problem other than decolonization.
> ...


Probably and you would be incorrect.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> but it was not until around the early 20th century



Australia as officially annexed at the beginning of the 20th century

India and Pakistan were partitioned in 1947

United States annexed the territories of Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, Alaska and Hawaii in the 20th century

Tibet was annexed by China in 1951

When ... precisely ... is this imaginary cutoff date of which you speak?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 15, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I started a thread.  Please feel free to "correct" me.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 15, 2017)

fncceo said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > but it was not until around the early 20th century
> ...



Don't forget cyprus, ukraine, that lebanon, syria and iraq were artificial creations, in some cases with minority rule over much larger majority populations, then we have various areas that russia has annexed/claimed like sakhalin island, etc.  The list is endless, but the jew-hating c-nts will always try to twist and adjust the timeline when things like international law should or shouldn't apply, that this or that situation is more "complex", etc so as to ensure the target is always focused on Israel.  These people are pathetic, bottom feeding scum whose deaths cannot come soon enough, several of whom are in this very thread.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 16, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Depending on exactly which qualifications you use, and which exceptions you run with, depends on what countries you would include in the list.

Different scholarly work, comes to different conclusions, based on their perspective of what is, and what isn't, part of the Arab world, or the Islamic World, or the Islamophere. 

For example, do you include countries where the majority self-identify as Islamic, while the culture is not Arabian, or they speak Arabic?    Do you include countries where there is little to no people of Arab decent, but is Islamic culturally?

Do you consider country which are merely influenced by Arabian culture, but otherwise have nothing common?

So depending on what sources you look at, will determine how many, or how few of the dozens of countries are included as being part of the Arab-world.

However the point is, and remains that no matter what standards you use, how strict, or lenient they may be, in the end there are literally over 5 million square miles of land ruled by, owned by, and lived on by Arab/Muslim peoples.  

At the very least, they have as much land as the entire United States, to live in.   While Israel has 8,000 square miles, are barely more than New Jersey.

Additionally, Israel has few natural resources, other than lots of sun, where as the Islamic Muslim lands combined have more natural resources, than any other country on the face of the Earth.

Lastly, Israel prior to the 1900s (referring to the land not the nation obviously), was a barren wasteland, the Islamic Muslim countries had developed economies and growing standards of living.

The only reason the Arabs want the land of Israel, has nothing to do with needing land.  It has to do with hating Jews, and wanting to destroy the nation of Israel.

If the Arabs truly had their way, they would kill the jews, and desert the land of Israel, letting it rot away to a barren wasteland again, just like they did in the 1700s to 1800s.    If the Arabs had really wanted the land itself, they could have had a booming metropolis across Palestine.  Instead, they had barely 200,000 people in the land, and most were impoverished subsistence farmers.

Remember until the Jews started coming back to Israel, the population levels were falling.   It was only when the Jews started coming back, that suddenly the Arabs thought they needed that land.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 16, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem is, they are still not Palestinians.  According to the Ottoman census, (if I am remembering this right), more than half of non-jewish population of Palestine were recent immigrants.
> ...



Exactly.   And one of them came from a linage that owned the land, and the other did not.


P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



There you go.  Call all counter information "propaganda", and ignore it.

Ok.  I can play that too, right?   The Arabs claiming they are not immigrants, is just propaganda by the PA.

Hey, works for you, so it works for me.  Right?   That's the rules of this discussion according to you, so here we go.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

fncceo said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > but it was not until around the early 20th century
> ...


There is a big difference between colonialism and settler colonialism.

Israel is a settler colonial project. The result is a large stateless refugee population.


----------



## fncceo (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> he result is a large stateless refugee population



Au contraire. Palestinian Arabs aren't stateless because of Israelis.  They are stateless because their leadership have turned down every offer of statehood the multiple times it has been offered. 

Palestinian leadership don't want a recognition of statehood, they want the state of Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

fncceo said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > he result is a large stateless refugee population
> ...


Oh, jeese.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Your usual deflection with silly one-liners and emojis isn't going to help. You are hoping to ignore the ideologically inspired hatreds for Jews (and all competing religions), that is the cornerstone of Islamist ideology. You are hoping to ignore the Khartoum Resolution wherein Arab-Moslem'ism - with regard to recognition of Israel, was explicitly delineated. You are hoping to ignore the Hamas charter that once again reaffirms an absolute refusal on the part of Arabs-Moslems to make any real efforts toward statehood that would include recognition of Israel. 

You also hope to ignore that the status quo - exploitation of the forever, UN funded welfare fraud - benefits an entire lineage of Arab-Moslem thieves (alternately known as the PA and Hamas "leadership") who have amassed fortunes in personal wealth. There is no reason to believe that these fine folks are going to jeopardize their welfare checks and foreign bank accounts to accept the role of managing civil affairs of government. 

You're doing nothing but perpetuating acceptance of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Arab-Moslem welfare cheats and social misfits.


----------



## jillian (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
> Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.
> 
> ...



it is DOA, but not because of Israelis. IT is DOA because pals have never wanted peace. they do not want a two-state solution. they want a "palestinian state".

but thanks for getting it all butt backwards. your "experience" is deluded and counter to reality and history. but no doubt the jew-haters will love you.

have a good life.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Why should Palestinians who were born in the Holy Land move to Morocco while Jews born in Russia have the right to live in the West Bank? The obnoxious racism of Zionists is obvious to all but themselves.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

jillian said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> ...


Palestinian-haters are against the Palestinian people having a right to their own state in their native homeland. This is the cause of the trouble there for half a century of blockading and brutal occupation.


----------



## jillian (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



i don't hate palestinians. i hate terrorists. 

hamas is a terrorist organization.

but please, let me know when there's an israelli terrorist micky mouse. and let me know when israelis send 1,000 missiles into the territories before the pals respond.

but keep making up BS.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



I'll go 4.5 / 5.0 for continued use of silly clichés and slogans:

_brutal occupation_™


May I suggest:

_the plight of the poor, oppressed Pal'istanians, representing the Peaceful Inner Struggle, because as we know, Islam is the Religion of Peace™_


Oopsies!

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."


----------



## Challenger (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> Can Paris summit save fading two-state solution? - BBC News
> Increasingly, with the increase of Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the annexation of East Jerusalem, it looks as if the two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict proposed by the United Nations four decades ago has become a pipe dream.
> 
> ...



Probably, but at least they are talking about it and the more obstructionist the Zionists become, the more their credibility will be eroded in the minds of the general public. Endorsing BDS might be a step forward; if Europe reduced or stopped trading with Zionist Israel, that might just put enough pressure on Nutandhayoo and his thugs to negotiate in good faith....there's a first time for everything I suppose, but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

jillian said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


Israeli state terrorism is not limited to ineffective firecrackers or the odd knife attack. Zionist terrorism uses state of the art precision rockets that can pinpoint children playing football on a beach, or hospitals and schools. The Israeli Defense Force also have a navy that can shoot Palestinian fishermen and their sons trying to make a living and also from ships they can bombard civilian neighborhoods. Israeli tanks have no match in Gaza or the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. And for every young Palestinian who hits back with a kitchen knife there are hundreds of armed and enthusiastic brainwashed soldiers who would put a bullet in the head of a prisoner and be lionized by half the state of Israel and top politicians there.

The Paris call for a two-state solution will be ignored by the occupiers with the support of the British who invented a Jewish state in Palestine and the American politicians who are under the thumb of the Jewish Lobby. There was never any chance of the rest of the world achieving anything in Paris yesterday.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> ...


You must know the Zionists already have no credibility outside of Britain and the USA.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 16, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Photos of the Paris Summit.



Nah, that's a Likud rally.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Not so much in Britain either, outside of the "Westminster bubble".


----------



## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > "A summit taking place in Paris on Sunday is expected to try to signal to Israel and the next US president that establishing a Palestinian state is the only path to peace."
> ...



Palestinians get all they want. Whats next? 
Please describe how You see the development of the region and the Jews in it.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Ahh, those harmless Pal'istanian acts of war and those odd knife attacks by "Peaceful Inner Strugglers". 

What a shame that anyone would be offended by such things.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Peace.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Oh! Please. Palestinians are not apes in a zoo who are satisfied with some bananas. "get all they want" indeed.
Palestinians want a state of their own in their homeland.

How I see the region developing? One of two ways:
Option 1 The Israelis stop their obstruction to a Palestinian state and a change of heart to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinian people. This option is ruled-out by Zionists.
Option 2 The Israelis will continue the occupation and eventually annex all of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem with Reservations for Palestinians under an apartheid system. Israel will be like their old allies, the "Europeans" of Apartheid South Africa.


----------



## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

Challenger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Please describe, what is the status of Jews, former Israeli Christians, Druze, Muslims, Baha and others.
Can Jews pray at The Temple Mount? Can Jews be Israelis and have their own army and state? Where is the Jewish capital?


----------



## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



All I asked was what happens next, when Palestinians get ALL their preconditions and new conditions. Is there Israel, Jerusalem as Jewish capital, can the Jews pray at The Temple Mount, what happens to other minorities?

And I'm still interested in an answer.


----------



## fanger (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


the Israeli government imposes entry limits to Temple Mount for political and security reasons. In addition, Jewish law imposes restrictions on entering Temple Mount.
Temple Mount entry restrictions - Wikipedia


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

If that were true, the the committee that defines Colonization (Special Committee 24) would have it on the listing to address [Table of Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGT)]:

*The United Nations and Decolonization - Committee of 24*
www.un.org/en/decolonization/specialcommittee.shtml
This is the site for The United Nations and Decolonization. ... (Special Committee on Decolonization) ... the Special Committee annually makes recommendations ...​This is the United Nations *entity exclusively devoted to the issue of decolonization*, was established in 1961 by the General Assembly with the purpose of monitoring the implementation of the Declaration (General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960).


P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is another prefect example where the anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic, and Pro-Arab Palestinian movements take something and shape it the way they think it should be.  They twist the facts to fit there agenda and then justify their actions base on something that is simply NOT TRUE.  There are only 4 countries in the world that are considered Administering Powers of one _(or more)_ NSGTs.  Three of the four _(America, UK, and France)_ are are original WWII Allied Powers; with the fourth _(New Zealand)_ being a dependent State and British Commonwealth of a parent Allied Power.

AND ---  Decolonization is a form of breaking down the principle Government and replacing it with another government.  In this case, breaking the ties to the Government of Israel --- a promising and successful government _(18th on the Human Development Scale)_ and replacing it with a much less successful Arab State in the zone approaching a radical Islamic State.  _(Just what the region needs.)_

Already, the Palestinians have allowed the influences of DAESH to put hooks into the PA/HAMAS territories of control.  This requires local material support from the community.  While pro-Arab Palestinians keep saying they do not support terrorism, the ties with DAESH _(committed to establishing an Islamic caliphate entire Middle East)_ are becoming more apparent.

*Support for Daesh growing in besieged Gaza |GulfNews.com*
gulfnews.com › News › Mena › Palestine
Support for Daesh growing in besieged Gaza. ... Palestinian Salafists wave flags during a ... experts see an increasing use of Daesh-style rhetoric to attract support.
Militants inspired by Daesh’s ideology are seeking to benefit from the desperation of young Palestinians to strengthen their foothold in the Gaza Strip.

*ISIS Blamed for Attack in Jerusalem Killing 4 and Injuring 15 Others*
Townhall.com · 6 days ago
Yet again, an individual representing the Islamic State has rammed a vehicle into unsuspecting pedestrians in the name of Allah, this time in Israel ... ISIS …​
Yet another reason to quarantine the West Bank and Gaza even further.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.


----------



## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

fanger said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Of course since any Jews visiting there are met with violent protesters of the Waqf. Sometimes the violence spreads to the outside Wailing Wall area, when those same protesters throw down rocks at the visitors.

Therefore for security resons Israeli police has to organize groups at certain time to give them protection.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy,  et al,

I see this quest and I wonder:  Where is the other half of the issue; where is the flip-side.



Eloy said:


> Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all?


*(COMMENT)*

If this is a valid question, then so is the question:  "Can any state be Islamic and remain a democracy with equal rights for all?"

To be honest, I'm not sure that this is even a valid question:

If the domestic population cannot determine its own identify, is it under a free and democratic rule?




 ​
Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> I see this quest and I wonder:  Where is the other half of the issue; where is the flip-side.
> 
> ...


Has it come to this now? Israel comparing/contrasting itself with Muslim countries?


----------



## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I couldn't help but notice the same one-sided demands. All concessions are the responsibility of the Israelis.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> *The only reason the Arabs want the land of Israel, has nothing to do with needing land.  It has to do with hating Jews, and wanting to destroy the nation of Israel. If the Arabs truly had their way, they would kill the jews, and desert the land of Israel, letting it rot away to a barren wasteland again, just like they did in the 1700s to 1800s.    If the Arabs had really wanted the land itself, they could have had a booming metropolis across Palestine.  Instead, they had barely 200,000 people in the land, and most were impoverished subsistence farmers. Remember until the Jews started coming back to Israel, the population levels were falling.   It was only when the Jews started coming back, that suddenly the Arabs thought they needed that land.*



Absolutely correct.  Just like with lebanon, algebra, and so many other things/places, the muslims take something/gravitate towards what others have built and like the plague/virus/cancer they are - they destroy it, claim it for themselves, and claim they created it/it is theirs, and always has been.

My other thread that arab culture is garbage is historically accurate, and the leftist trash here has made little effort to argue against it.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> There you go.  Call all counter information "propaganda", and ignore it.
> 
> Ok.  I can play that too, right?   The Arabs claiming they are not immigrants, is just propaganda by the PA.
> 
> Hey, works for you, so it works for me.  Right?   That's the rules of this discussion according to you, so here we go.



Almost 100% of the pro-arabs here have almost zero intelligence, don't even know a fraction of the region's current situation or history, etc.  I've been hoping for better pro-arab posters to come to this forum for years, but few have joined.  The ones here are pathetic trash.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Has it come to this now? Israel comparing/contrasting itself with Muslim countries?



Asshole moron, why are the 60 muslim countries off the table?  That 1/3 of all countries on earth - why are they exempt from discussion?  Are they filled with retarded trash like you with no brains, so they cannot be expected to act civilized?


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy,  et al,

Not exactly.  This is a question as to the validity of the original question...



Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The idea behind self-determination is at issue.  The people of any given state, once the sovereignty is established, have the right to determine the nature and character of their country.

•  Israel wants to be a Jewish State; just as it was called in Part II Boundaries - Section B (Jewish State) A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947.  Just because it is a "Jewish State" does not mean that the "Freedom of conscience and the free exercise of all forms of worship, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, shall be ensured to all."  Israel is more diverse that either the Gaza Strip or the West Bank.​
The domestic issue is for the people of Israel to decide; and NOT for the external Arab influence to decide.  Or said another way: "No matter what self-righteous stand the Arab Palestinians takes --- they have NO right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of Israel."

The more valid questions are:  

•  Can a nation's people be threatened or denounced for deciding to be Jewish by non-Jewish neighbors?
•  And if the people of Israel are "forced" to rescind their choice to be a Jewish Nation; is it then made to take this action based on the respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples? 
•  Or is it being said that the rights of the Israeli people are sanctioned, if and only if, the Arab Palestinian approves?​
*ARTICLE 4 *
*CONVENTION ON RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF STATES*
States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

*ARTICLE 5*
*CONVENTION ON RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF STATES*
The fundamental rights of states are not susceptible of being affected in any manner whatsoever.

*ARTICLE 6*
*CONVENTION ON RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF STATES*
The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.

*ARTICLE 7*
*CONVENTION ON RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF STATES*
The recognition of a state may be express or tacit. The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state.

*ARTICLE 8*
*CONVENTION ON RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF STATES*
No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.



​
The very idea that the Arab Palestinians, or indeed the entire Arab League, --- even the entire International Community has the right to coerce Israel by threatening the peace, to change their character under the false color of law, and convert Israel away from being Jewish, is simply wrong.

*Forced conversion* is adoption of a different religion or irreligion under duress.​Should we hold "peace" hostage until the Israeli people are force to capitulate and bend to the will of the Arab Majority having Islam as their official state religion?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> "No matter what self-righteous stand the Arab Palestinians takes --- they have NO right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of Israel."


Since you keep bring up the defunct Resolution 181. Resolution 181 specified that all Palestinians living in the territory that becomes the Jewish state shall become citizen of that state. That means that the Palestinian refugees are Israeli citizens.*

It would be the same without Resolution 181 as that is also part of international law regarding state succession.

*This assumes that Israel is the successor state and not just an occupation of Palestine.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts.  The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct.  Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)?  Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> Not exactly.  This is a question as to the validity of the original question...
> 
> ...


Your post is too long for me to answer.

In your comment you wrote:
"The idea behind self-determination is at issue.  The people of any given state, once the sovereignty is established, have the right to determine the nature and character of their country."

You appear to be suggesting that sovereignty comes after a state exists but this is seldom the case when it comes to a demand for the right of self-determination. People who call for self-determination are usually a minority in a state. It is not only a state that has sovereignty but also a people.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I have no problem understanding that there might be a need for some land swaps but not to account for population shifts because this would mean all the illegal settlements deep in the occupied territories. It would be impossible to get agreement from the Israelis who have annexed the entire city of Jerusalem. I do not know about Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah but, again, if they are deep in the West Bank then it would be for the state of Palestine to protect these but this is what the discussions should address.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 16, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts.  The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct.  Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)?  Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.



All the Jewish Holy Places stay in Israel.  I wouldn't risk any of them in Arab Muslim hands.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 16, 2017)

The whole idea that Israel can't be both Jewish and "democratic" (really meaning a place where minorities have equal rights) is just typecasting in order to demonize Israel, and in particular, force Israelis to defend themselves against a false charge.  

Of course Israel can be both Jewish and ensure equal treatment for all her minorities.  She already DOES that.  Just because Muslims can't do that, is no reason for anyone to assume that the Jewish people can't.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 16, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The whole idea that Israel can't be both Jewish and "democratic" (really meaning a place where minorities have equal rights) is just typecasting in order to demonize Israel, and in particular, force Israelis to defend themselves against a false charge.
> 
> Of course Israel can be both Jewish and ensure equal treatment for all her minorities.  She already DOES that.  Just because Muslims can't do that, is no reason for anyone to assume that the Jewish people can't.



Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population.  But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher.  They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 16, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The whole idea that Israel can't be both Jewish and "democratic" (really meaning a place where minorities have equal rights) is just typecasting in order to demonize Israel, and in particular, force Israelis to defend themselves against a false charge.
> ...



That is why we don't want to annex the West Bank. Let alone (G-d forbid) Gaza.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> You appear to be suggesting that sovereignty comes after a state exists but this is seldom the case when it comes to a demand for the right of self-determination.


Rocco has this thing about sovereign states. Actually sovereignty belongs to the people. (The people of the place. Not people from someplace else.) Governments and states are the result of the exercise of their sovereignty not prerequisites. Preventing people the right to exercise their sovereignty is a crime against those people.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> If that were true, the the committee that defines Colonization (Special Committee 24) would have it on the listing to address [Table of Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGT)]:


This is assuming that the UN is perfect. You and I and most everybody else knows that this is far from true.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You appear to be suggesting that sovereignty comes after a state exists but this is seldom the case when it comes to a demand for the right of self-determination.
> ...



"Preventing people the right to exercise their sovereignty is a crime against those people."


Interesting comment considering the wars of (hoped for) annihilation waged by Arabs Moslems against Israel, the Hamas charter, islamist ideology, etc.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 16, 2017)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts.  The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct.  Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)?  Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.
> ...



Well then, goodbye to Palestine!  Hebron, Bethlehem and Nablus, where those holy places are located, are its 3 largest cities.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 16, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The whole idea that Israel can't be both Jewish and "democratic" (really meaning a place where minorities have equal rights) is just typecasting in order to demonize Israel, and in particular, force Israelis to defend themselves against a false charge.
> ...



There is both past and recent history to identify what happens to minority religious groups / ethnicities under majority Islamist control. An entire portion of the globe (the Islamist Middle East) has been nearly purged of competing minority religious / ethnic groups.


----------



## fanger (Jan 16, 2017)

Hollie said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


But not Iran


----------



## fanger (Jan 16, 2017)

*2017, January. Paris. Middle East Conference. Time for Israel to decide whether it is serious being a member of the international community or whether it chooses the path to pariah status, building illegal colonies on stolen land, flouting international law and disrespecting world opinion. Such pigfaced arrogance is bound to have negative consequences.*

*The Machiavellian approach*
There are two types of lawyers. The first type understands that the practice of law is perfectly simple since the rules are laid down as clearly as possible, those who draw them up are in general terms competent and have an eye for detail, taking care not only to word the documents carefully but also to punctuate them adequately. The second type is a cynical, manipulative figure who understands that rules and laws are made to be broken and it is just a question of how much money is used or power exerted to reach the Machiavellian goal.
*In signing international agreements and conventions, Israel is bound by their terms, and the very notion that a State can sign a treaty and then weasel its way out, accepting some of the terms and not others, is not only sheer, shitfaced arrogance but also an insult to the international community.*

The fact is that Israel signed the FourthGeneva Convention of 1949, which basically prohibits countries from moving populations into territories occupied during a war. Hence the colonies which Israel is building outside its original borders are illegal, period. It is perfectly simple. So simple, indeed, that the United Nations Security Council, whose deliberations are legally binding, has stated that the terms of the Convention apply. Also, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High
Contracting Parties to the Convention. Apart from this, several UN Resolutions have declared the Israeli settlements built on stolen land are illegal.


*Israel, the chosen thief*
*Israel, of course, thinks it is above international law, or for that matter any law. It does what it wants, when, where and how it wants because it knows that the Jewish Lobby in the USA is so powerful that it pulls Washington's strings and therefore Washington's sickening Poodles in Europe will jump obediently and abstain when Washington vetoes UN Resolutions condemning Israel.
The result is that Israel continues to steal land which does not belong to it, continues to bulldoze Palestinian homes, continues to dessecrate Palestinian cemeteries, continues to expropriate Palestinian farms, dispossessing Palestinians, splitting up families, seizing land and property from children whose grandparents held the rights.

And what does the international community do? Nothing. It is fitting that this Conference is held in Paris, the capital city of one of the countries which started this mess (along with its bedmaster, the UK) by drawing lines on maps.

When Israel gets real, when Israel admits that it has to follow the norms of international law to be wholly accepted into the international community, and in so doing moving back to the borders drawn up in 1948, Israel will be accepted into the hearts and minds of the international community. Netanyahu is too emotionally stupid to realize this, as is most of the Knesset.

Time for a new generation of Jews to work alongside Jews against Zionism and together with the hearts and minds of the international community. To date what has ruled Israel is those in legion with the Devil, claiming the Jews are the chosen people (how racist does it get?) and disregarding the norms of international law.
Paris Middle East Conference: Time for Israel to decide
good bye israel

*


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The idea behind self-determination is at issue.  The people of any given state, once the sovereignty is established, have the right to determine the nature and character of their country.
> 
> •  Israel wants to be a Jewish State; just as it was called in Part II Boundaries - Section B (Jewish State) A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947.  Just because it is a "Jewish State" does not mean that the "Freedom of conscience and the free exercise of all forms of worship, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, shall be ensured to all."  Israel is more diverse that either the Gaza Strip or the West Bank.​


​
Another instance where scumbags like "eloy" and his fellow trash fall apart:

1) these assholes demand self-determination for the fakestinians - but NEVER for the jews, or for non-muslims anywhere in the mideast.

2) they whine that Israel cannot be allowed to be called "the jewish state" but are silent about the ISLAMIC republic of iran, the ISLAMIC Republic of Afghanistan, the ISLAMIC Republic of Mauritani, and the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan, etc.

3) they whine about Israel but are silent about islam being the official "religion" of many of the 57 muslim-majority countries


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population.  But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher.  They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.



They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Well then, goodbye to Palestine!  Hebron, Bethlehem and Nablus, where those holy places are located, are its 3 largest cities.



They won't be so large when the muslims are removed.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > If that were true, the the committee that defines Colonization (Special Committee 24) would have it on the listing to address [Table of Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGT)]:
> ...



Funny how the UN suddenly becomes "not perfect" when it rules against Team Palestine.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

fanger said:


> But not Iran



Really c-nt idiot?

Ever heard of the Bahai, the Zoroastrians, or the iranian arabs?  You're waaaaaay too fucking stupid to even breathe.

UN panel criticizes Iran’s repression of minorities - Bahá'í World News Service

Iran’s Repression Targets Kurds, Other Minorities


----------



## Shusha (Jan 16, 2017)

fanger said:


> But not Iran



You do realize there are only 8,000 Jews left in Iran, yes?  And that there are an entirely seperate set of laws for the Jews of Iran compared to the Muslims, yes?  That the Jews in Iran are legally discriminated against, yes?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


The UN has always done squat when it comes to Palestine. Sometimes they will pass a resolution then they will throw on the shelf to collect dust.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy,  et al,

Well, you are confusing types of sovereignty.  There is, of course the sovereignty of a person that is associated with the characteristic of adulthood and the ability to make decisions about one’s destiny.  But the Sovereignty we are talking about here is a matter of authority; it is not a matter of mere authority, but of supreme authority.

Statehood is not just the matter of magic, Poof! It’s a state.  Ad one of the characteristic of a State is territory; which is not just a matter of saying, that territory is mine.  It is a matter of extending sovereign authority over it.


The holder of sovereignty is superior to all authorities under its purview. Supremacy, too, is endemic to modernity. During the Middle Ages, manifold authorities held some sort of legal warrant for their authority, whether feudal, canonical, or otherwise, but very rarely did such warrant confer supremacy.

A final ingredient of sovereignty is territoriality, also a feature of political authority in modernity. Territoriality is a principle by which members of a community are to be defined. It specifies that their membership derives from their residence within borders. It is a powerful principle, for it defines membership in a way that may not correspond with identity. The borders of a sovereign state may not at all circumscribe a “people” or a “nation,” and may in fact encompass several of these identities, as national self-determination and irredentist movements make evident. It is rather by simple virtue of their location within geographic borders that people belong to a state and fall under the authority of its ruler. It is within a geographic territory that modern sovereigns are supremely authoritative.
*SOURCE:* 1. A Definition of Sovereignty​Or, in thumbnail terms:  “*Sovereignty, *in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. The concept of sovereignty—one of the most controversial ideas in political science and international law—is closely related to the difficult concepts of state and government and of independence and democracy. Derived from the Latin term _superanus _through the French term _souveraineté_, sovereignty was originally meant to be the equivalent of supreme power. However, in practice it often has departed from this traditional meaning.”  (WRITTEN BY: The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica )

*State sovereignty* legal definition of *State sovereignty*
*legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com*/*State+sovereignty*
Definition of *State sovereignty* in the Legal Dictionary - by Free online English dictionary and encyclopedia. What is *State sovereignty*?​


Eloy said:


> Your post is too long for me to answer.
> 
> In your comment you wrote:
> "The idea behind self-determination is at issue.  The people of any given state, once the sovereignty is established, have the right to determine the nature and character of their country."
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) can claim this or that is their territory.  But their claim is somewhat illegitimate in that the HoAP never had sovereignty over the territory in question.

In order to say that a state exists ... it is enough that this territory has a sufficient consistency, even though its boundaries have not yet been accurately delimited, and that the state actually exercises independent public authority over that territory.  (Law and National Security:Selected Issues Pnina Sharvit Baruch and Anat Kurz, Editors)



			
				P F Tinmore said:
			
		

> Rocco has this thing about sovereign states. Actually sovereignty belongs to the people. (The people of the place. Not people from someplace else.) Governments and states are the result of the exercise of their sovereignty not prerequisites. Preventing people the right to exercise their sovereignty is a crime against those people.


*(COMMENT)*

I think you are confused as to what "sovereignty" mean, relative to a political entity; or what it means when the say "sovereignty in person" relative to a state.

The bottom line is, that if an authority (or would be authority) cannot claim authority over the territory, it is not a state.  If someone else exercises authority over the territory, then it was never theirs to begin with.

In fact, with the exception of Area "A", there is a huge question if the State of Palestine actually ever existed.  Hence, one of the reasons they want Israel to relinquish control; and one of the reasons why the 1988 State of Palestine was only granted observer status.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

This is funny.



P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I would say that very few of that long list of Resolutions were actually binding..

The question here is:  What "exactly" did you expect the UN to do?

At the end of the day, the UN does not have the responsibility to fight Hostile Arab Palestinian battles for them.  And the mistake the UN made was giving the Palestinians any voice at all on the international forum.  All the Palestinians have done in the last half-century is open hostilities and whine about defeats.  They have yet established control over anything beyond Area "A."

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> Well, you are confusing types of sovereignty.  There is, of course the sovereignty of a person that is associated with the characteristic of adulthood and the ability to make decisions about one’s destiny.  But the Sovereignty we are talking about here is a matter of authority; it is not a matter of mere authority, but of supreme authority.
> 
> ...


WOW, all that without addressing my post.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore,



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Must have problems with eyesight.

v/r
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> I would say that very few of that long list of Resolutions were actually binding..


Yeah, I hear that from Israeli propagandists all the time.

The UN regularly base their resolution on existing international law. The law is binding even though the resolution itself may not be.

So that "non binding" Israeli talking point is just a means to duck the law.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe less smoke would be helpful.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

P F Tinmore, et al,

There are a number of ways to view this.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > I would say that very few of that long list of Resolutions were actually binding..
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Talk about specifics and the law; OR, address it on a practical solution plane to the matching issue.  But don't to cite a resolution that is non-binding and thus, does not speak to the elements of the offense.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Lipush (Jan 16, 2017)

Surprisingly, 'Paris' brought nothing new and Israeli diplomats didn't waste any time attending this toothless committee.


----------



## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing  in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian. 

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.


----------



## rylah (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Again arguing for Jewish heritage to be in the hands of Arabs has proven unproductive and destructive though decades of experience, a wide range of evidence already provided.

Bottom line - common sense tells Israelis need concrete guarantees.
Otherwise all this is just criticism and speculation targeting only one side.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 16, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population.  But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher.  They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.
> ...



They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing.  Make up your mind.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> Well, you are confusing types of sovereignty.  There is, of course the sovereignty of a person that is associated with the characteristic of adulthood and the ability to make decisions about one’s destiny.  But the Sovereignty we are talking about here is a matter of authority; it is not a matter of mere authority, but of supreme authority.
> 
> ...


Your post is too long for me to answer every point but you are mistaken if you believe there is no national sovereignty without a state of its own.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


I can see your refusal to cooperate with a Palestinian state.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2017)

Coyote,  et al,

This is an often difficult concept and often confused.



Coyote said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

*Article 6 - Genocide* 
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: 

(a) Killing members of the group; 
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. ​
Ethnic cleansing—the use of force or intimidation to remove people of a certain ethnic or religious group from a given territory, is more associated with Article 7 - Crimes against Humanity.   Article 7 is where "ethnic" issue are generally handled.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote (Jan 16, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Coyote,  et al,
> 
> This is an often difficult concept and often confused.
> 
> ...



I agree - though I have to admit, when I was referring to genocide, I was referring to another statement Rhodescholar had made in another thread where he stated "Death to islam, and all who practice that cancerous death cult." - that's pretty genocidal I would think but was not part of this thread.

But expelling all Arab Muslims would surely be ethnic cleansing?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 16, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.



rylah said:


> 2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing  in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.


Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.



rylah said:


> 3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
> In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.


Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.



rylah said:


> Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
> Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
> There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.


Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Neither were the European Jews who _left Europe of their own will_ after WWII.



How people are still bothering to post to this worthless scumbag when it utters comments like this I cannot fathom.

I've seen stormfronters and other fucking garbage pass through these parts, and this turd is no different - it is just pretending to be "reasonable." 

Stop feeding this trolling asshole.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 16, 2017)

Coyote said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands.  They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want.  I don't care.  The non-Israelis will be forced out.  One or another, they will leave the land.   They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now.  They choose against that.  So they get what they get.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> (a) Killing members of the group;
> (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
> (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;


These are all SOP for Israel.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > (a) Killing members of the group;
> ...


Actually, those activities describe the actions of the Arab-Moslem world to their unwashed, unwanted brethren, the Arab-Moslem welfare cheats aka the Pal'istanians.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



My family, from both sides, WERE expelled from Europe, for all intents and purposes.  When Poland was divided between Germany and Russia, the Russians deported my mom's family to freezing Siberia.  After the war, my mom's family returned to Poland, but there were pogroms against the Jews there, because the Poles blamed the Jews for what the Germans did to them.  My mom's family then tried to get visas to America but they were denied (it's much easier today).  So they went to the one place where Jews are always welcome--Israel.  My dad's entire family in Poland--parents, 2 sisters and a brother--were killed by the Germans.  My dad managed to escape to Russia.  After the war, he was placed in a Displaced Person's camp in Germany.  He married his first wife there, and they were able to get visas to America.  After living in America for awhile and divorcing his first wife, my dad visited Israel.  He met and married my mom there, and brought her to America.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



1. This deflection doesn't even deserve an answer.
Do You know history at all? Look up the expulsion from France, Engalnd, the Inquisition, Cossacs in Ukraine... the list is long.

First Europeans expellkd Jews from Judea to Europe, then again from Europe, now the Europeans want to expel Jews from Judea Samaria.

2.This is a basic racist argument for the discrimination against Jews:
 "Jews are European not Semitic"- then why did the Europeans invent the term 'anti- SEMITISM'? Why do Russians call Jews 'Hebrews'?

3. This isn't an argument but a political slogan. 
Arabic is an official Israeli language, Israeli Arabs are strongly represented in the Parliament and elsewhere. Proof is overwhelming.
However no Palestinian Jew is even allowed to live in Gaza or PA, to the extent that anyone selling land to a Jew is sentenced to execution.

4. Sure it looks different from Your loan somewhere in the west.
However common sense and clear data dictate that the representative bodies of the international community have priorities of their own, based on the experience of recent interventions.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rhodescholar said:
> ...


How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Let me understand- the fact that I demand guarantees for a contract means I refuse to cooperate?

This is a very radical approach, actually showing how one side will grasp at anything to avoid an agreement.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Your thinking and version of history in contradiction to facts is the reason the Israelis will never enter into serious dialog with Palestinians for a solution solution to the Israeli problem with a two-state solution.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...









 And I know that no one has a legal right of return. and I have proven this to you many times in the past. It is only legal if the nation applying it has it on its law books.

 This has nothing to do with the right of return, it is all to do with who see's what, when and where.


 Why do you see the non Jew as a citizen of palestine and the Jew as an illegal settler ?


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Again not an argument.
Can You base anything You say in concrete data?


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 You and the rest of the islamonazi stooges


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


No, your brazen use of the terminology Judah and Sumeria while pretending that there is not already a _de facto _annexation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, demonstrates the Israeli unwillingness to have any discussion of a two-state solution to the Israeli problem with Palestinians.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


On the contrary, I have made the argument that Palestinian direct discussions with the Israelis which the Paris summit called for is a non-starter.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 According to the hate sites you frequent

Not at first, and it was when the Jews proved they could make America great that the doors were opened


BULLSHIT it was a paper exercise to see just who sides with the arab muslim terrorists


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

From 1:46...

There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


The sad story of your family is not uncommon for many Jews. The anti-Jewish attitudes of the Catholic Poles during the war is not as well-known as it should be and the word pogrom is itself Russian. It is perfectly understandable that, at that post-war time East European Jews would want to leave for the sake of peace. It is an irony that Jews are safe now in the European Union while the occupation of Palestine causes a security problem for them nowadays. It is a wonder that Jews living comfortably in the United States did not do more to welcome European Jews when they needed refuge.

Today, anti-Jewish incidents in Europe, though rare and relatively minor, are condemned by all responsible governments and political parties and are almost entirely in reaction to the occupation and Israeli massacres of Palestinians in Gaza, and likely perpetrated by Muslim immigrants. It is a shame that they happen at all.

While European governments advocate for the right of Palestinians to their state, and some have gone as far as recognizing the state of Palestine, there is an acceptance of Jews as citizens of the European Union without any reservation, equal in all manner to any other citizens.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


One way to solve the Jewish problem with Palestinians is not to heed the ignorant codswallop of a Palestinian Mufti but between men and women of reason and compassion to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people now under Israeli blockade and occupation to have their own state and live in peace as well as their claims on the land of their birth and that of their fathers.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Calling Jerusalem 'Al Quds' and Hebron 'al Halil' doesn't bother You.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Don't You see something missing here?

I've started with the notion that ALL Palestinian demands are met.
And asked what would happen next.
All I've been reading since are only demands towards Israeli side.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Thank You for pointing out that it's a Jewish problem with Palestinians, not a political one. This is more accurate regarding the history of Palestine.

One cannot disregard the words of the Palestinian Mufti and his son heading the same position today and dictating much of the Palestinian agenda.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 17, 2017)

That any Palestinian objected to the conquest and colonization of Palestine when it initiated by the British on behalf of the Euroepan Jews, including the Palestinian leadership at the time, is a natural response any people would have.  Why do you find it surprising , or wrong?


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> That any Palestinian objected to the conquest and colonization of Palestine when it initiated by the British on behalf of the Euroepan Jews, including the Palestinian leadership at the time, is a natural response any people would have.  Why do you find it surprising , or wrong?


It's odd, but stereotypical, that you rattle on with your silly _conquest ™ _and _invasion_ nonsense when no such occurrences are in the historical (in your case, the hysterical), record.

Rather than continually cutting and pasting the same nonsensical paragraphs, why not support your otherwise pointless propaganda with facts?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I have learned to live with countries changing the names of cities. St. Petersburg became Petrograd then Leningrad, then St. Petersburg again. What people call _their own cities_ makes no difference to me.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


One thing at a time. Predicting the future is harder than understanding the present.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


The Jewish problem with Palestinians causes brutal suffering for the Palestinian people. You are right that it is not political. It is more a problem of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. As long as the Israelis oppress the Palestinians and stop them having their own state as the international community recommends, they nullify their own sovereignty.


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...









 DEFLECTION because you cant answer without proving it is a racist thing. It is a world wide action by neo Nazi's who want to see the Jews wiped out.  I did not realise that you were Polish were real Nazism fermented and created the death camps


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy,  et al,

The Arab Palestinians endured "brutal suffering" because they shot themselves in the foot.



Eloy said:


> The Jewish problem with Palestinians causes brutal suffering for the Palestinian people. You are right that it is not political. It is more a problem of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. As long as the Israelis oppress the Palestinians and stop them having their own state as the international community recommends, they nullify their own sovereignty.


*(COMMENT)*

I think, if you check your history, the Arab Palestinians rejected their own state as the international community recommended.

*UNITED NATIONS PALESTINE COMMISSION*  First Special Report to the Security Council:
The Problem of Security in Palestine A/AC.21/9 S/676  16 February 1948
6. The Secretary-General has been informed by the Arab Higher Committee that is determined to persist in its rejection of the partition plan and in its refusal to recognize the resolution of the Assembly and “anything deriving therefrom”. The Subsequent communication of 6 February to the Secretary-General from the representative of the Arab Higher Committee set forth the following conclusions of the Arab Higher Committee Delegation:

“a. The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

“b. The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power or group of powers to establish a Jewish State in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense by force.

c. It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said commission.

d. The United Nations or its commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

e. The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

f. The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

g. The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.
“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child.​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 So that is all you pro pali's out of the picture, GOOD now the real adults can get back to sorting the trouble out


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> The Arab Palestinians endured "brutal suffering" because they shot themselves in the foot.
> 
> ...


That was then, this is now.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



No there were not, that's just a bunch of Zionist propaganda.  There were no Jews at all in Palestine until the Muslim conquest in 638 AD, and the Jews that accompanied the Muslims as invaders were not from Palestine.  The Jews from Spain that came after 1492 were also not from Palestine. And of course, the European Zionists were not from Palestine and were Europeans (genetically) that practiced Judaism with little to no ancestral ties to the area.

The Palestinians (who were practiced Christianity and Islam by the time the European Zionists initiated their invasion) are the only indigenous people of the area having remained there throughout the past 3,000 years under a succession of ruling regimes, converting to the religion of the rulers, as required or convenient. 

Let's  stick to the facts rather than to Zionist fantasies.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Link?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...



Exactly.  Tinmore, monte and Rocco endlessly debating the past solves absolutely nothing.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel ...



Why is the family of a Muslim immigrant from Egypt in the 1930s "Palestinian" and the family of a Jewish immigrant from Russia in the 1930s "foreign settler invaders"?

Its a simple question.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> That any Palestinian objected to the conquest and colonization of Palestine when it initiated by the British on behalf of the Euroepan Jews, including the Palestinian leadership at the time, is a natural response any people would have.  Why do you find it surprising , or wrong?



Then why do you find it surprising and wrong that the Jewish people object to the conquest and colonization of Israel and wish to regain their homeland?


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Jan 17, 2017)

The notion that any summit/meeting whatever - is going to accomplish one damn thing is downright laughable.
The only people who can solve this multi-generational problem is Israeli citizens and Palestinians...anything else is all show and no go.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 17, 2017)

rhodescholar said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Neither were the European Jews who _left Europe of their own will_ after WWII.
> ...



I think you have described him perfectly.  Today the biggest humanitarian crisis is happening in Syria and this two-bit anti-Semite keeps on saying "brutal occupation."  as if most of us are going to believe him.  Probably just another slogan he picked up and he can't stop using it. He probably doesn't take any time to read what is happening in Syria because he can't blame the Jews.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 17, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Hanan Ashrawi also says the occupation is "brutal."  Don't know what she means by that.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> The Arab Palestinians endured "brutal suffering" because they shot themselves in the foot.
> 
> ...


The Palestinians were correct. It was their right to reject that plans.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2017)

ForeverYoung436,  et al,

I agree 100%.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


*(QUESTIONs)*

•  When did the Hostile Arab Palestinian *accept* "having their own state as the international community recommends?"

•  What Peace Treaty did the HoAP sign with Israel to conclude hostilities?

Let's discuss that!

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, I agree...   It is their right to "reject" every proposal at any time.



P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinians were correct. It was their right to reject that plans.


*(COMMENT)*

But having that right to "reject" --- and exercising that right to "reject" --- it seem illogical for the Palestinians to complain about not having what they rejected.

When I was overseas, I thought about those idiots that turned away food and complained they were hungry.  I think that the Palestinians should not complain about their suffering when they asked to be martyrs and victims.

Just My Thought,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> • When did the Hostile Arab Palestinian *accept* "having their own state as the international community recommends?"


1924


RoccoR said:


> • What Peace Treaty did the HoAP sign with Israel to conclude hostilities?


Every so called peace talk was for the purpose of the Palestinian to negotiate away their rights. Nothing else is on the table.


RoccoR said:


> Let's discuss that!



*OK!*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> But having that right to "reject" --- and exercising that right to "reject" --- it seem illogical for the Palestinians to complain about not having what they rejected.


They rejected giving half of their country to foreign settlers as any other people in the world would do.

Why do you hold them to a different standard?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel ...
> ...


I believe the immigration to Palestine of Russian Jews in the 1930s would have been extremely exceptional whereas indigenous Arab Muslims were the typical population.

Today, any Russian Jew can claim the right to live in an illegal settlement as a right granted by the "Jewish" state of Israel while native Arab families are cast as unworthy of having a state of their own and the right of self-determination.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I only hold-up one standard.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > But having that right to "reject" --- and exercising that right to "reject" --- it seem illogical for the Palestinians to complain about not having what they rejected.
> ...


*(QUESTION)*

They rejected giving half of their country to foreign settlers.   How much do they have now?                       How do you know what other people would do?     "as any other people in the world would do"

Here we are --- today.  I'm not sure how many Arab "rejections" later.  How many conflicts and how much farther advanced are the Arab Palestinians now?  As compared to then?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> They rejected giving half of their country to foreign settlers. How much do they have now?


It doesn't matter. The Palestinians never ceded any land.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > rhodescholar said:
> ...


Oh! You must be aware of how brutal the occupation of the Palestinian Territories are. It is difficult to watch the relentless oppression of Palestinians on a daily basis.


ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > rhodescholar said:
> ...


Without question, the occupation and blockade of the Palestinian people is brutal. Perhaps this is not reported in the American media.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 17, 2017)

No people have given up the land they lived on to foreign invaders without resistance.  Some lost out forever, as the native americans and native australians, others like native africans, algerians, south africans etc., gained independence.  We will have to see how it ends up in Palestine.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

They never had rights and title to any land; and they never accepted any land.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > They rejected giving half of their country to foreign settlers. How much do they have now?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Answer the question!  How much do they have now?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> They never had rights and title to any land; and they never accepted any land.


Israeli talking point.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> ForeverYoung436,  et al,
> 
> I agree 100%.
> 
> ...


The state of Palestine is not only claimed by Palestinians but accepted by some United Nations agencies and countries, the latest being the Vatican state.






Pope Francis welcomes President Abbas upon the opening of the Palestine embassy in the Vatican state


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 17, 2017)

The Vatican!
What a shock!


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436,  et al,
> ...



But that doesn't matter.   Again, you are missing the point.     Unless the Arabs and Jews accept it.... it doesn't matter how many other countries accept it.

If the area of Palestine was accepted as a nation, by every single country on the face of the Earth, except Israel, and the people of Palestine didn't accept that Israel exists (which they do not)....

Then it does not matter what Pope Francis or anyone else accepts it, does it?   Because they will still be fighting each other.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Recognition of the state of Palestine matters to Palestinians and the 70 countries who attended the Paris summit.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



It only matters to the Palestinians because they believe they can use this to harm Israel.   Their end goal, which they have stated hundreds of times, is to destroy Israel.  Everything they think they can use to achieve that goal, is a plus.

Yes, I'm sure it matters to all the other countries who attended the Paris summit.

Now, back to the claim of a solution....  do you think that because it matters, that the Arabs are not going to keep killing Jews?  No.   Do you think the Jews will stop growing and expanding?  No.    Do you think any of the violence is going to end because of the Paris Summit?

Did it end with all the previous summits and meetings?  No.

Why?  Because the Arabs want to wipe Israel off the planet, and Israel believes they have a divine right to the land.

Again... you claim it matters to the people who were there...... Great.  What changed on the ground in Israel?   Nothing.  So how did it really.....REALLY..... matter?    Answer.... it didn't.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Montelatici we already saw how You make up Your "facts".
And how they hold no water in light of real documents.

On the one hand You say Palestinians are the only descendents of Jews, then You Jews weren't at all in Palestine.
Make up Your mind, decide once where do You want to delete Jews from history and stick with it at least a day ok?


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Of course it's always the Israeli's fault.
Even the fact that Palestinians have a "Jewish problem"...do You hear Yourself?

Meanwhile Palestinians have no unified representation, they're divided between tribes and hamula's (clusters of families), with the division being very apparent locally,culturally and politically.
If they don't get along soon there won't be any 2 state solution, but city states- Emirates. And Israel has nothing to do with it- it's their choice.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> That any Palestinian objected to the conquest and colonization of Palestine when it initiated by the British on behalf of the Euroepan Jews, including the Palestinian leadership at the time, is a natural response any people would have.  Why do you find it surprising , or wrong?



more mindless slogans- here's a stick with a board to write them down-


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



So if it doesn't make difference with people calling their cities how the like, why are You all a sudden bothered with people calling the are Judea Samaria, You know exactly like it was written in geography books for centuries?

This is ridiculous- an Arab Palestinian who's recent ancestors massacred and destroyed Jewish cities all over Palestine is ok, but an Israeli who says "Judea Samaria" is enough reason to continue the war.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



So tell me when is the time Your arguments become based on concrete facts?


----------



## montelatici (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



You have a problem with reading comprehension.  Changing religion does not change ancestry.  No one wants to delete Jews from history. European Jews are European Jews, just as European Christians are Christians.  Neither European Jews nor European Christians (both religions that have origins in or have a tie to  Palestine) have the right to evict and replace the native people of a territory because they happen to practice a particular religion.


----------



## rylah (Jan 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Nothing to do with religion, as You know most Zionists were secular.

It's a simple fact You miss- there're no mountains in Palestine called "Christian mountains"...but there're "Judean desert" and "Judean mountains"


----------



## Shusha (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Why is the family of a Muslim immigrant from Egypt in the 1930s "Palestinian" and the family of a Jewish immigrant from Russia in the 1930s "foreign settler invaders"?
> ...



You didn't answer the question. Why are some immigrant families considered "Palestinian" and some are not?  What criteria must an immigrant meet to be considered "Palestinian"?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It depend on why they went to Palestine.

If they went there to find a home, get a job, and live with the other Palestinians they are immigrants.

If they went there to destroy Palestine and create their own state they are not.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Please the problem the Israelis have is with the Palestinian people, their nearest neighbors. It is a problem and an intractable one at that. It concerns the international community too.

I am unfamiliar with the dynamics of Palestinian society as you describe it. Your description might be very accurate and I am bound to agree that a Palestinian demand for state recognition when they cannot agree among themselves about their government with Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Their government of unity was short lived. Nevertheless, the PLO is their recognized representative body. Honestly, if they do have their own state and they do mess up then they will have only themselves to blame.

Really, all these years, Israel could and should have been more accommodating and supportive. When a state of Palestine has the support of Israel, it will be hard to overcome the bitterness built up over the decades.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 17, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


The Jews have been there since Moses. When did the Palestinians and Arabs get there?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I know your question is rhetorical but still unfair. Facts underpin my every post, in this thread that the two-state solution is a wish of the world and I believe it is also the _official_ position of Israel as well as the Palestinians. Where there is a will, there is a way.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


By Palestinian is surely meant anyone born in Palestine before and during the British Mandate and their progeny. After the establishment of Israel, some Palestinians were still there and many others became refugees in Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. But you know all this.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2017)

et al,

OK, what does everyone have to say now that the dust has settled on the Paris Summit?

V/R
R


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 17, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Before the Israelites reached the Promised Land, they wandered for 40 years in the Sinai desert.  Right before they crossed into it, they complained about the lack of water.  G-d told Moses to speak to a certain rock and water would come forth from it.  However, instead of speaking to the rock, Moses struck it.  The water came out, but G-d was angry that Moses disobeyed Him.  So Moses never made it into the Promised Land.  He died in what is now known as Jordan.  It was Joshua who brought them into the Land, so your post was somewhat inaccurate.  The Jews have been in Israel since Joshua.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> et al,
> 
> OK, what does everyone have to say now that the dust has settled on the Paris Summit?
> 
> ...



Well, since the main parties to the conflict weren't even there, not much was accomplished.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 17, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Many of their ancestors were there long before Moses got there. At least some of the ancestors of the Palestinians predate the arrival of the Hebrews.  Obviously.  Note: Arab is a linguistic and cultural denomination.  Berbers of North Africa and blacks from the Sudan are called Arabs.  But they are not Arabians.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> et al,
> 
> OK, what does everyone have to say now that the dust has settled on the Paris Summit?
> 
> ...


I think "dust" is the key word here.

This marks 80 years of the two state solution so nobody was expecting anything.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2017)

ForeverYoung436,  et al,

Yes, I'm confused.  



ForeverYoung436 said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I found it interesting as well.   Not on were Isreal and Palestine were both absent, but, the former Mandatory declined to support the Two-State Solution.  Yet, the UK thought the US would eventually have to be the “ultimate guarantor.”  The UK (the former Mandatory for Palestine) also felt that the Two-State Agreement would:  

Essentially, the conference would “harden positions” of Palestinian negotiators rather than encourage conditions for peace, the statement continued.
​
So, what was the purpose?  What was the intent and outcome?
_Paris peace conference agrees on two-state solution in Mideast — but neither Israel nor Palestinians take part _(LA Times).

What is the next step?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> So, what was the purpose? What was the intent and outcome?


Now that the two state solution is dead and one state looms on the horizon people are trying to revive the two state solution to save Israel from itself.


----------



## rhodescholar (Jan 17, 2017)

rylah said:


> Montelatici we already saw how You make up Your "facts".And how they hold no water in light of real documents.On the one hand You say Palestinians are the only descendents of Jews, then You Jews weren't at all in Palestine.
> Make up Your mind, decide once where do You want to delete Jews from history and stick with it at least a day ok?



You got it, these scumbags change their lies to whatever will demonize the jews.  

These c-nts will claim there were "always" arab muslims aka "palestinians" living there, yet not once did they seek a nation under Turkish rule for 400 years, nor under Jordanian for 20 years.  Amazing how they suddenly decided to become a nation in 1964, yet had been "indigenous" to the land for "thousands of years."

Other pieces of jew-hating shit like pf tin-douche will claim other laughable nonsense, like how Israel is made up of jews from Europe, as opposed to the millions from arab muslim countries.  

Then scumbags like "eloy" who is likely a sock puppet of one of the other piles of shit will claim arab muslims who immigrated into Israel in the 1930s are "legitimate" - but jews who came at the same time are not.

These turds and filth will switch claims and arguments on a dime to whatever might back up their argument that minute.  Many of them are arab muslim vermin, others mentally ill jew-hating far leftist dogshit, some are both.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 17, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


I know that Joshua brought them but I believe Moses was allowed to see the Promised Land but couldn't enter it.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> et al,
> 
> OK, what does everyone have to say now that the dust has settled on the Paris Summit?
> 
> ...


It's only value was to set the record straight once and for all that a two-state is what the world prefers and its border should be the 967 border.
Since Israel officially for two states this might seem repeating the old formula but Israel;s notion of a Palestinian state might be an nonviable series of reservations on the worst land, similar to the treatment of native-Americans by the USA in the 19th century. This will be a recipe for further discontent.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



How could they have possibly been more accommodating?     The government of Israel, has tried many times to not only be accommodating, but agree to Palestine statehood, and given them land and territory.

The last attempt was 2006 to 2008.

EHUD Olmert is a giant of contemporary Middle East politics. As Israel's prime minister he made war - twice - in Lebanon in 2006, and in the Gaza Strip earlier this year. He's also tried to make peace, offering the Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, the most extensive concessions any Israeli leader has ever brought to the table in the search for a settlement.​http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...e/news-story/f266b2fec6cab7f6b49fc3d8c1bee82f

Ehud Olmert attempted to give massive concessions in order to find a peace deal, that would create a Palestinian state, that would divide Jerusalem, give nearly all the West Bank, and more than all of Gaza, and even ..... get this... he promised to guarantee 'right-of-return' for Arabs, granting them Israeli citizenship, AND reclaiming their former property.

This is massive.

Now read what happened:

From the end of 2006 until the end of 2008 I think I met with Abu Mazen more often than any Israeli leader has ever met any Arab leader. I met him more than 35 times. They were intense, serious negotiations.

On the 16th of September, 2008, I presented him (Abbas) with a comprehensive plan.

He (Abbas) promised me the next day his adviser would come. But the next day Saeb Erekat rang my adviser and said we forgot we are going to Amman today, let's make it next week. I never saw him again.​
This is the exact same thing that happened at the 2000 Camp David accords.   Israel laid out statehood, with territory, and Yasser Arafat, turned it down.

The Arabs do not want a peace deal.  Not a final peace deal.   They want to scream about peace, throw stones about peace, go to the UN about peace, demand the world's attention about peace.... but they do not want peace.

The moment that they sign a deal, and create a Palestinian State, they know that any attack on Israel will turn world opinion away from them, and all their help will dry up.

So, they'll scream, they'll preach, they will cry on TV, and weep for the cameras, and they'll do whatever they can to drum up support for them with a back drop of "oh we just want our own state, and peace!".... in reality they'll never sign a peace deal ever.  They will drag this out until the end of time, and string along as many fools as they can, to support their genocidal cause to kill the Jews.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Whatever some men of good will in Israel have tried to do, the brutal blockade and occupation of the Palestinian Territories has undone.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


And do you know when and WHY this "brutal" blockade and occupation began?


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



"They will drag this out until the end of time, and string along as many fools as they can, to support their genocidal cause to kill the Jews."

The more excitable of the Arab-Moslem fascists decided to spell out their intentions so there would be no ambiguity as to their intentions.

From the Hamas charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."


Is anyone still unclear as to the intentions of the Arab-Moslem colonists?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


What do you think would happen if the blockade was lifted, there were no fences and the border was open?


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



_Brutal blockade and occupation™
_
Brutal use of slogans and clichés.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

Hossfly said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Israel would have no choice but to abandon its policy of agreements to a Hudna allowing a time-out for the Islamic terrorists to rearm with the cash supplied by their UN sponsored welfare fraud.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


1948.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Close. Not long after the first war of hoped-for genocide waged by Arab-Moslem invaders. They've been losers ever since.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 17, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Splitting hairs....  They have been there since the time of Moses.


Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Then they should have accepted the multiple peace deals, because that would have ended the blockade.

Stop giving excuses.  That's childish.  No more excuses, thanks.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


2000.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Israelis and Palestinians both need to look forward now, not back.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Remember when the blockade was to be lifted when schilit (SP?) was released.

That lie came and went.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


1994.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



You're upset that acts of Islamic terrorism weren't rewarded. 

_Pal'istanian Mentality™_


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The Israelis attempted to loosen the blockade, and allowed things in like concrete for example.  The result was that Hamas built massive underground tunnel networks so they could attack places, and escape without being seen.  That actually created a physical, literal, terrorist network.

So as any nation would do, they reinforced the blockade again.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Great idea.  Good luck with that.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...





*From a sidebar found at Post-Gazette.com:*

The United Nations Development Program, in a report published last year, described in often painful detail some of the factors that have contributed to the decline of science and the rise of extremism in Arab societies. Among them are: 

- Increases in average income have been lower in the Arab world than anywhere else for 20 years, except for the poorest African countries. "If such trends continue...it will take the average Arab citizen 140 years to double his or her income, whole other regions are set to achieve that level in a matter of less than 10 years," the report noted. One in 5 Arabs lives on less than $2 a day. 

- Arab unemployment is the highest in the developing world. 

- Surveys show more than half of young Arabs want to leave their countries and live in theUnited States or other industrialized countries where opportunities are better. 

- The Arab brain drain is the world's worst, with about 25 percent of new graduates in science, medicine and engineering emigrating each year. 

- About 1 in 4 Arab adults can neither read nor write. This is a particular problem among Arab women, 50 per cent of whom are illiterate. Many children do not attend school. 

- The quality of education has declined, with many schools teaching mainly interpretations of the Koran, rather than other knowledge or skills. 

- Less than 0.6 per cent of Arabs use the Internet and barely 1.2 percent have access to a personal computer. There are 18 computers per 1,000 Arabs, compared to the global average of 78.3. 

- During the entire 20th century, fewer than 10,000 books were translated into Arabic -- equivalent to the number translated into Spanish in a single year. Religious books account for 17 per cent of new publications in Arab countries, compared to a world average of 5 per cent. 

- Censorship stifles ideas, information and innovation. Numerous censors review book manuscripts, each with the power to edit text or demand revisions.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Indeed there have been many Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity but the international community did nothing due to fear of the Americans. Now everyone is putting on the record that a two-state solution along 1967 borders will be the only acceptable plan to satisfy world opinion.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Not relevant. It was just one of Israel's looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong list of lies.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It certainly is relevant. Rewarding acts of Islamic terrorism only emboldens Islamic terrorists. 

Your heroes in hezbollocks learned the hard way in 2006 that islamo-kidnapping has consequences.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Indeed, Israel uses it as an excuse to bomb the crap out of civilians.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 17, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Indeed, your Islamic terrorist heroes proved their cowardice by waging war from civilian areas. 

But then, Arab-Moslem victims of Arab-Moslem terrorism are a valuable propaganda tool.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2017)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Israel even attacks Palestinian civilians in the West Bank where there are no rockets.

So that is just one of Israel's stupid excuses.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 18, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Islamic terrorism carries consequences.

How lucky for you that dead Islamic terrorists are such a convenient propaganda tool.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 18, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 

Jewish man attacked by west bank terrorists, killing him, leaving a wounded widow, and two children.

Yeah, they don't have rockets, but that doesn't stop them from being dogs that need shot and put down.

Stop your excuses.  You attack the Israelis, and then cry that they shoot back.   Any country where you shot their citizens, would result in them stomping you.

Quite frankly, the Israeli response is quite tame compared to what the US would do to you, if you were next to Texas, and shooting at them.

And quite frankly, the response from Texas would be tame compared to what the Russians would do to you, if you lived next to them, and were shooting Russians.

Honestly, Israel has had a more restrained and reasonable response to your murderous terrorists, than anyone else would have.

Remember what the Russians did in Afghanistan?   Some terrorist with his kids and wife, just shot at them, they'd level half the town, killing everyone with the terrorist.

Remember how Israel just cleared those concrete tunnels and blew them up?    Russia would punch a bunch of holes in drums of diesel fuel, roll them down into the tunnels and caves of Afghanistan, and set all of them on fire.... women children, and the terrorists.  Burn them all alive.  And not give a second thought to it.

These Arabs should be thanking G-d every day.  Not for victory over Israel, but that Israel is the most patient, and lenient country they could be fighting.   If it was any other group than the Jews, there would be large greasy spots out in the desert, and nothing left of Gaza or the West Bank.    Anyone else, and it would be Chernobyl exclusion zone in the middle east.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 18, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


A Jewish man was attacked and killed?
How many Palestinians, including babies asleep in their cradles, have been attacked and killed by settlers?
I rather think your outrage is reserved for the injury to Jews.
The illegal settlements need to be closed and their Jewish colonists repatriated from Palestine to Israel.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2017)

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes this is interesting.  But provides no real guidance; contributes nothing towards a solution.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > So, what was the purpose? What was the intent and outcome?
> ...


*(ONE POSSIBLE SOLUTION)*

In The _Status Quo_ There Is --- _A Freedom Tax_:

•  Let's just maintain the existing state of affairs.

§  Israel really does not want to absorb the West Bank or Gaza Strip.  That would be tantamount to giving citizenship to a segment of the population that has no real potential for working in the best interest of Israel; and would introduce a viral and parasitic condition into one of the inventive, creative, energetic and constructive nations in the modern world today.  Israel makes many times more of a positive contribution to humanity _(in is existence since 1948) _than the entire Arab Middle East Region since the time of Nobel Endowment in 1895.​•  Let Israel slowly back away gradually disengage from any substantive interaction with the Palestinians in any way _(political, border crossing, utilities, economic and commercial, etc --- no work permits for employment)_.
•  Renenforce the security barrier and complete the construction.
•• Divert funding into three directions.

§  Construction Project:  Relocation Properties --- 

ø  Compensation their lost residents, f
ø  Reconstruction for the loss of their homes, farms and businesses ​§  Construction Project:  Desalinization Plans --- 

ø  A giant gas driven (Source:  Dedicated Spur Line from the Dalit Field Development) Desalinization Plant Complex in the vicinity of Israeli Central District (Netanya), with a protected aqueduct straight into Nabulus (West Bank).  From there, branching off in three directions (North, East, South).
ø  A giant gas driven (Source:  Dedicated Spur Line from the Tamar Field Development) Desalinization Plant Complex with aqueduct branch; one NE to Jerusalem. one SE to Berrsheba.
ø  A giant gas driven (Source:  Underground Mini-nuclear Reactor with steam turbine generators) Desalinization Plant Complex in Eilat (Gulf of Aqaba) to improve the land and irrigation of the desert to the north and NW.​§  Once utilities are established and the ground becomes agriculturally sound, begin to move West Bank Settlers to newly improved lands on a line between Dimona to Eilat (Gulf of Aqaba).​•  Israel will have to continue to tolerate the Arab Palestinian Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.  It will even have to be prepared to conduct military operations such to deplete and exhaust hostile Arab Palestinian arms and supplies.​While it is possible for the Arab Palestinians to suddenly jump up and turn, politically, 180º in the opposite direction; the probability is ever remote.  Instead, the Freedom Tax is the cost, vigilance, and preparedness in the inevitable violence so promised by the Arab Palestinians themselves.  And!  It will be in the slings and arrows of the international community as Israel decisively answers the Arab Palestinian call for a thrashing (yet again).

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Jan 18, 2017)

As the Jews continue to encroach and surround the areas that the native Palestinians inhabit, the Palestinians, regrettably,  will have to emulate the more aggressive freedom fighting tactics of the ANC in South Africa. Unfortunately, the Jews seem to be more uncompromising than the Boers. 

But, they also need the rise of charismatic leader like Mandela (Abbas won't do), to help mobilize the international community against  Israeli apartheid. This induces sanctions.

The international sanctions, even though the U.S. and Britain resisted initially,  were an important element that brought the ruling whites to the table. BDS is a start, but individual economic sanctions imposed by individual countries and blocs e.g. the EU,  and sporting sanctions were also important.  FIFA's upcoming sanctioning of Israeli football is a start, but only affects the settlements. As the International Olympic Committee, UEFA and other sporting federations follow FIFA's lead Israel, like Apartheid South Africa will become more isolated and that tends to bring people around in terms of compromise.

It will take time, but time is on the side of the Palestinians. Hopefully, the result will be similar to the relatively peaceful transition to a multi-ethnic and democratic state, as occurred in South Africa.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


What were those people doing in Palestine?


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2017)

montelatici, et al,

Again, exactly what did Israel do to get the tag "Apartheid."

"The crime of apartheid" [*ICC-RS Article 7 (2d)]* means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime; 

Nothing contained in the present Charter [*Chapter 1 Article 2(7)]* shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.​


montelatici said:


> As the Jews continue to encroach and surround the areas that the native Palestinians inhabit, the Palestinians, regrettably,  will have to emulate the more aggressive freedom fighting tactics of the ANC in South Africa. Unfortunately, the Jews seem to be more uncompromising than the Boers.
> 
> But, they also need the rise of charismatic leader like Mandela (Abbas won't do), to help mobilize the international community against  Israeli apartheid. This induces sanctions.
> 
> ...


*(FACTS)*

*The CIA World Factbook - Israel*

Ethnic groups:

 

•  Jewish 74.8% (of which Israel-born 75.6%) 

§  Europe/America/Oceania-born 16.6%, 
§  Africa-born 4.9%, 
§  Asia-born 2.9%,​•  non-Jewish 25.2% (mostly Arab) (2015 est.)​Religions:



•  Jewish 74.8%, 

Jews in Israel are also divided according their level of religious observance: 

§  Ultra-Orthodox (12%), 
§  Religious (10%), 
§  Traditional (35%), 
§  Secular (43%).​•  Muslim 17.6%, _(Approximatel 1.2M numbers vary depending on the source)_
•  Christian 2%, 
•  Druze 1.6%, 
_(OR --- ≈ 122K ican be thought of as 8.2% of the Arab population)
(Most speak Arabic and identify as Arabs // most believe in reincarnation // closed communities and accept no converts)
(There is a history of Arab nationalists persecuting the Druze)_
•  Other 4% (2015 est.)​*(COMMENT)*

The State of Israel has a population of some 8.27M inhabitants.  And normally, when we talk about "Apartheid," we talk about the minority being oppressed by the Majority in the domestic venue.  We are not talking about the Israelis and the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Druze: Approximately 134,000 Druze currently live in Israel, in 17 settlements on Mount Carmel, in the Galilee and on the Golan Heights.  This is not by government decree but is of their own choosing.

Circassians: Members immigrated and established the Village of Rikhaniya and Kafr Kama.

Samaritans:  There are less than a 100 Samaritans left in Israel.  They are evenly split between Nablus (Shkhem) and Holon (Kholon).

Since the Declaration of Indepence from the British Mandate and UN Trusteeship, over some 2.7M Jews have immigrated to Israel from over a 100 different countries; including ≈ 60,000 immigrants from Ethiopia.

I'm not quite sure that the "Apartheid" of South Africa is anything like Israel.  No government is perfect.  Israel is doing more than most in this regard.  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​If you are supporting the Arab Palestinians in the West Bank (former Jordanian Sovereign Territory) and the Gaza Strip (former Occupied Egyptian Territory), WHAT connection does that have to do with the accusation of "Apartheid"???? 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Again, exactly what did Israel do to get the tag "Apartheid."
> 
> "The crime of apartheid" [*ICC-RS Article 7 (2d)]* means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an *institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;*


You answered your own question.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 18, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici, et al,
> 
> Again, exactly what did Israel do to get the tag "Apartheid."
> "The crime of apartheid" [*ICC-RS Article 7 (2d)]* means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;
> ...


Arab (Palestinian) citizens in Israel are 2nd class but the vision Israel has in mind for the Occupied Territories such as continued blockade of Gaza and Reservations for Palestinians in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem is the very definition of apartheid.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2017)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

You just bolded the passage.  You did not apply it.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Again, exactly what did Israel do to get the tag "Apartheid."
> ...


(COMMENT)

Be specific!


What is the "regime?"
Who is being dominated and oppressed?
What are the opposing racial groups?
What institution is being maintained?

Come on get with it.  Answer the *Elements of the Offense*:

Article 7 (1) (j) Crime against humanity of apartheid 
Elements 
1. The perpetrator committed an inhumane act against one or more persons. 
2. Such act was an act referred to in article 7, paragraph 1, of the Statute, or was an act of a character similar to any of those acts.29 
3. The perpetrator was aware of the factual circumstances that established the character of the act. 
4. The conduct was committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups. 
5. The perpetrator intended to maintain such regime by that conduct. 
6. The conduct was committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population. 
7. The perpetrator knew that the conduct was part of or intended the conduct to be part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population.​Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (Jan 18, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The illegal settlements need to be closed and their Jewish colonists repatriated from Palestine to Israel.



As long as we are suggesting ethnic cleansing, we should at least be fair about it and apply it equally, don't you think?  So let's send all the Jews to Israel and all the Arabs to wherever we decide Palestine is.  Then nobody has to live with a hostile population.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 18, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The illegal settlements need to be closed and their Jewish colonists repatriated from Palestine to Israel.
> ...



When an a foreign  invader invades, the native population will be hostile until co-opted or eliminated. The Jews can try to eliminate the remaining native population and see where it gets them. Or, it can co-opt the native population giving them equal rights, citizenship etc., since the two state solution has been rejected, as the results of the Paris conference demonstrated.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> You just bolded the passage.  You did not apply it.
> 
> ...


If you saw more than just the Israeli narrative you would not have to ask those questions.

IOW, you need to get out more.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 18, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The illegal settlements need to be closed and their Jewish colonists repatriated from Palestine to Israel.
> ...


No, Arab citizens who were born in what became Israel have a right to live in their homeland as well as the refugees and their progeny who became so with the creation of Israel.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2017)

Eloy, et al,

OK, but I'm confused.



Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


*(QUESTION)*

My confusion rests in two main areas.

•  What time period (specifically) are you addressing (start date, end date)?

•  What "right" of "law" are you talking about (please be specific)?​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Jan 18, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy, et al,
> 
> OK, but I'm confused.
> 
> ...



Confusion is rampant with you.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 18, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy, et al,
> 
> OK, but I'm confused.
> 
> ...


Time period regarding Palestinian refugees?
I specifically mentioned how they were the result of the establishment of the Israeli state.

What right?
Birthright.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jan 18, 2017)

> Can Paris summit save two-state solution?


The _Two-State Solution_ has been dead since 1967.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2017)

Eloy,  et al,

This is an OK answer with me.



Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy, et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

It seems to me that you are trying to apply a new law after the fact.  But I can't be sure until I hear the allegation.

If you are using any event before May 1948, they are displaced as a result of Jewish Palestinians in conflict with Arab Palestinians _(a Civil War between two groups under the 1925 Citizenship act)_.  After May 1948, but before October 1950, there was no firm protocol on handling refugees.  As an example, the UK was handing over all the anti-Communist Russians NKVD as fast as they could arrest or kill them; knowing they would be executed on their return.  This was political expedience and turning a blind eye for the other Allied Powers.  There simply were no rules back then.   It seems to me that you cannot apply the Fourth Geneva Convention until after 1950.  And you cannot apply the Convention on Refugees until 1950.  So I'm trying to determine on what basis you make these unspecified allegations and claims.  This is a good point of discussion.

The Jewish People are experienced, throughout history, at Majority Populations making laws after an event that give the pretense of legal and proper authority to act against Jews.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Eloy (Jan 18, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> This is an OK answer with me.
> 
> ...


You should not need a convention to recognize a birthright.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2017)

Eloy,  et al,

"Birthright" does not mean the same thing to everyone.



Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The concept of a "birthright" cuts both ways.  The structuring of the Birthright is often fabricated around entitlements at birth.  The Saudi Royals have a different set of birthrights than do the non-Royals.  Just as the Kuwaiti Royals have birthrights that others do not have.  In some Arab Countries, Sunnis have more entitlements than Shi'ites; just as in some countries the opposite is true.

There is little to be gained by attempting to enforce fake entitlements (different from benefits) in an attempt to sure that of value.  As we generally understand, (at leat here in America) there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Neither side, in reality, have any more of a birthright, than the other.  What one side does have, over the other, is the earned privilege to enforce laws and codes as may be developed by their culture; within their sovereign domain.  And the other may not encroach upon the sovereign integrity of the other without the expectation of consequence.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Jan 18, 2017)

The birthright is that of the native people. Not that of the invading colonists.  And, time is on the side of the native people, the Jews have not been able to eliminate all of them and their population is increasing at a greater rate than that of the offspring of the invading colonists.  A more Rhodesian/South African scenario than an Americas scenario.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 19, 2017)

montelatici said:


> The birthright is that of the native people. Not that of the invading colonists.  And, time is on the side of the native people, the Jews have not been able to eliminate all of them and their population is increasing at a greater rate than that of the offspring of the invading colonists.  A more Rhodesian/South African scenario than an Americas scenario.



Odd that you ascribe the term "native people" to the various Christian and Moslem invaders to your invented "country of Pal'istan". 

Interestingly, Israel is the one corner of the Islamist Middle East where Islamists have not managed to purge competing religions and ethnicities.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 19, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> Eloy,  et al,
> 
> "Birthright" does not mean the same thing to everyone.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that those who can mooch the most guns have the most rights?


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 19, 2017)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Wow...  "mooch the most guns," you say.  Well, I don't think that I touched on the strength of the sword.

What I did mention was the "privilege to enforce" _(the corollary is the duty)_.  And I did mention the "codes" of the time _(we have to disregard the Arabs Palestinians in this - they serve no code of honor and valor)_.  This was framed in the context of sovereignty _(which then they had none, today very little)_.

The earned privilege (thumbnail):

The idealized "code" (outside the realm of Arab Palestinians) encompasses the character and spirit of valor at all times --- embracing virtues and duties.  Part of the "code" is to never lay down arms even when the foe (Hostile Arab Palestinians HoAP) are merciless; but, know when to surrender.

But merciless, we mean many things.  

The HoAP are NOT sworn to Valor.  It takes no courage to kidnap and murder unarmed children.  It takes no courage to walk into a crowded restaurant and detonate a bomb vest among the innocent.

The HoAP knows NO Virtue and does NOT defend the Helpless and the weak.  The HoAP demonstrate NO behavior showing high moral standards, they argue that the have the right to engage women and children in a bus, wielding knives against the unarmed, attacking the devote while kneeling at pray, ​
The meaning behind the "earned Privilege" includes upholding the Weak, and speaks only Truth.  To be Israeli _(having the honor in defending the sovereignty of the nation, its people, and its cultural heritage)_ is to be fair and not judge others.  The Israeli knows that to falter is human and to hold out a hand sometimes will strengthen the weak.  These are just a part of what it means to be a 21st Century Israeli that must always be prepared to the unscrupulous HoAP to strike. The HoAP are marked by their deeds of Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence. 

BUT, I digress here; ---- going to deep in the meaning "the earned privilege to enforce laws and codes."  It has nothing to do with "mooching guns."



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Neither side, in reality, have any more of a birthright, than the other.  What one side does have, over the other, is the earned privilege to enforce laws and codes as may be developed by their culture; within their sovereign domain.  And the other may not encroach upon the sovereign integrity of the other without the expectation of consequence.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

ANSWER:  NO

The "rights" in any given country is a product of that country; not an entitlement bestowed at birth.  In an ideal world, that might be true.  But not in our lifetime.

But having military aid from the US like Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt _(as well as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc) _has a distinct advantage in the sovereign integrity.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Jan 19, 2017)

Saudi Arabia nor Kuwait receive aid from the U.S., they pay dearly for arms they buy from Europe and the U.S.  Jordan and Egypt receive hush money which the U.S. pays on behalf of the Israelis so that dictators will remain friendly to Israel (and support the Gaza blockade for example) while oppressing the majority of the population.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 19, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> It takes no courage to walk into a crowded restaurant and detonate a bomb vest among the innocent.


Nor does it take any courage do drop bombs on people out of airplanes.

Do you have a point?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 19, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> BUT, I digress here; ---- going to deep in the meaning "the earned privilege to enforce laws and codes." It has nothing to do with "mooching guns."


You're joking. Israel was created using mooched guns. Israel exists using mooched guns.

Israel could not exist without its superior ability to mooch.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 19, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Saudi Arabia nor Kuwait receive aid from the U.S., they pay dearly for arms they buy from Europe and the U.S.  Jordan and Egypt receive hush money which the U.S. pays on behalf of the Israelis so that dictators will remain friendly to Israel (and support the Gaza blockade for example) while oppressing the majority of the population.


The above belongs in the conspiracy theory forums.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



When I read your post, I tried to think of any instance where this actually happened.  Then I started doing internet searches for incidences where this happened.   

As near as I can tell, only once that a baby was killed in its cradle.  
Duma arson attack, happened in 2015, and a petrol bomb was tossed into two homes, one of which was empty, and the other had a 1.5 year old.

Here's the difference.   When a Jewish Israeli commits such an act, the result is they investigate, and they prosecute.

The man who did this deed, was arrested and is now indited for murder.
Benjamin Netanyahu actually called up the PA leadership and said he was horrified by what happened.

Now you tell me... do the Arabs do this?   

No.    Not only do they not arrest terrorists, but they promote them.




 

Remember this?  Where this guy is praised for butchering two jews who accidentally went down the wrong street?

Don't see the police stopping him, do you?   Do you know what building he's in right there?   The West Bank police station.   Yeah, an entire building of Palestinian police, allows this guy to beat to death two jews, while inside the building.    Far from being arrested for murder, he was allowed to celebrate with the public.

Israelis don't let Jews do that.  They are arrested and put in prison.

This Is How Some Palestinians Are Celebrating the Kidnapping of Three Israeli Teens

Remember the murder of the 3 jewish teenagers?   They celebrated that.... literally they had celebrations, across the Gaza and west bank, where people had tailgate parties, handed out pastries, and they had their kids do the "three finger salute" expressing approval for the murders.



 

Starting to see a slight difference?  When a Jewish man kills a Palestinian, the Israelis are appalled.

When an Arab kills a jew, the PA, the leadership, the public, even the children, celebrate it.

*And on a final note*, I find it odd that in any other context, you don't suggest that we force out Russians, and repatriate them to Russia.  You don't suggest we force out Germans and repatriate them to Germany.   You don't suggest we force out Mexicans and repatriate them to Mexico.  You don't suggest we force out Somalians, or Syrians, and repatriate them to Somalia and Syria.

Out of all the thousands of people groups moved out of their nation of origin, you select only one, one group, Jews, and say.... everyone else can move around, but Jews have to stay in the border we select for them.

*Well, your hypocrisy aside, the Jews are not going to do that.*   Sorry... not going to happen.   Well the UN says..... well the countries say.... well world opinion is....

Doesn't matter.  Bottom line.... listen to me.... they are not going to do that.   Period.  End of story.  Game over.   Discussion terminated.

You can tell them they should.  You can demand they should.  You can cry they should.  You can protest they should.

They are not going to do that.     Back to the very first post I sent you....   If you believe that the Jews have to all abandon their homes outside the arbitrary line in 1967.... if that is your requirement to achieve peace in your mind.... then you lose.   *They are not going to do that.  PERIOD*.

I'm just a messenger dude.   You can argue with me until the end of time.  They are not going to do that.  I *PROMISE YOU*.... that will never happen.   How many decades on end, have we said they should do that, and despite decade after decade of pressure to abandon their settlements, they have more now, than ever before.   They are not going to do that.  You better find a solution that doesn't involve that, or you don't have a solution.  Not happening.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > BUT, I digress here; ---- going to deep in the meaning "the earned privilege to enforce laws and codes." It has nothing to do with "mooching guns."
> ...



Sort of....    Israel has numerous solutions for finding arms.  They are even in talks with Russia.

That said, Israel has tons of weapons manufacturing capability now.  They use US support, because they have it.  If the US stopped supporting, they'd have other support in place.

How many times have we tried to prevent some country from getting means of warfare, and had that work?  Iran has found plenty of ways to get arms, despite world wide attempts to cut them off.

The bottom line is, if you got money... and Israel does... there is always a seller.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Saudi Arabia nor Kuwait receive aid from the U.S., they pay dearly for arms they buy from Europe and the U.S.  Jordan and Egypt receive hush money which the U.S. pays on behalf of the Israelis so that dictators will remain friendly to Israel (and support the Gaza blockade for example) while oppressing the majority of the population.
> ...



It seems there are a lot of tin foil hat people around the middle east topic.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Remember this? Where this guy is praised for butchering two jews who accidentally went down the wrong street?


I believe those two were Israeli soldiers and deserved what they got. What goes around...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Starting to see a slight difference? When a Jewish man kills a Palestinian, the Israelis are appalled.


When Israel was bombing the crap out of civilians in Gaza the Israelis were partying on the hilltop overlooking Gaza. When Israel killed nine people on the flotilla, the Israelis were dancing in the street.

Bunch of animals.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Remember this? Where this guy is praised for butchering two jews who accidentally went down the wrong street?
> ...



...no...   They were two guys in a car.  Not soldiers.  If they were soldiers, they would have at least shot some people before being killed.   They simply were dragged from their car, and lynched.

And every single time you say "deserved what they got" and "goes around..."....

All you are showing us, is that you deserved to be shot and killed yourself.   You are showing us that you and your people are all dogs... just mad dogs that need put down.

You justify everything I have posted about this conflict, by proving my claims about you and those people to be true.

If you support murder, and murderers, then you should have the same fate as murderers.

G-d will judge.   I'm just a messenger.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Even during the 1948 war, Golda Meir went to the US to mooch money for weapons.

Israel has always lived on the mooch.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Starting to see a slight difference? When a Jewish man kills a Palestinian, the Israelis are appalled.
> ...



Israelis killed people on a flotilla, because they attacked them.  You attack me, I'm going to shoot, and your fault, and your fault alone that you die.

And don't lie to me.  I saw the video.  It was explicitly clear why the Israelis shot them.

When Israel was bombing the crap out of Gaza, it was because the Gaza people murdered and celebrated the murder of 3 jewish teens.

Yes, I would celebrate justice too.   I think it's great when a rapist is killed, when a murderer is killed, and when a country that supports such things is bombed.

You murder people and then complain about being bombed?  Your fault.  Stop murdering.   You do evil, and the cry about the consequences?   You have no one to blame but yourself alone.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I support Israel.  I would give them money and guns myself.  If I was in Israel, and an Israeli asked me for help defending his people from these mad dogs.... I'd give him my 9mm from my pocket.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


You are forgetting that the Palestinians are defending themselves from Zionist settler colonialism.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Israelis killed people on a flotilla, because they attacked them.


You are sooooooooo full of shit. It was Israel that attacked the flotilla.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Israelis killed people on a flotilla, because they attacked them.
> ...



I'm assuming you are talking about the flotilla from Cypress, sponsored by the Turkish group.

...As any country would.   There was an embargo.  

You realize that American coast guards jump on flotillas of Cubans to this day.   If those Cubans started attacking our guards, they would be shot.  I promise you they would.

Similarly, if China boards a Japanese boat, and the Japs attack the Chinese, they will be shot.

In fact, when the US aircraft landed in China, if the US airmen attacked the Chinese military, they would have been shot and killed.

If North Korea boards a South Korean ship, and the South Koreans attack them, they will be shot.

Yes.... yes the Israelis boarded the flotilla to turn it back.  They were attacked, and thus they shot those people.... AND  THEY   SHOULD.

Any questions?

Again... if you are so stupid.....  that you attack me, when I'm armed with a weapon......    Seriously....   for the pagans, this should be a Darwin award.    You are being removed from the gene pool to limit the amount of stupidity in our genes.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Funny, because the Palestinians are settler colonialists.

The difference is, they all have dozens of countries with millions of square miles, that are all Arab lands.

Israeli is occupying the ancient homeland of the Jews.   You need to leave.    You can either leave... or you can die.   Those are your options.

Regardless, that isn't an excuse for murder.   You murder people, then justice says you should die.

Again, even the Jews are not celebrating jews that murder.  They imprison them.   That soldier that shot the wounded Palestinian... he's going to prison.  I don't see him being celebrated in the media, like the Palestinian murderers are celebrated by the PA, and defended by idiots on a forum.  

Because you are evil.  See the difference?  You are an evil person that comes up with endless excuses for your evil acts.    That is why the Arabs in Gaza and West Bank will die, and the Jews will take the entire land.  You are evil.  G-d does not support those who are evil.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


You can keep your gun for whatever occasion you need it where you live. The Israelis have all the weaponry they need to subdue the Palestinian people and they prove this every ten years or so when they demonstrate their precision weapons from land, sea, and air striking schools, hospitals, children playing football, and infrastructure. If a two-state solution is not found by 2024, it will be another massacre in Gaza.

With so much of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, it is even now, in my opinion, far too late for the Israelis to change course. It is a growing certainty that Israel will be the whole of the former British Mandate Palestine with impoverished Reservations for the native Arabs.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Coastguard cutters and warships of any nation are entitled to ask a ship to heave to and be boarded for inspection within their own territorial waters or within an area under blockade. On the high seas however, any ship making lawful passage and not a belligerant in any particular conflict may legitimately resist boarding by any foreign vessel or warship. 

As regards shooting people, there is a huge difference in using a weapon to protect yourself, whereas the people shot on the Mavi Marmarra were shot execution style, in the head. That's murder.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Israelis killed people on a flotilla, because they attacked them.
> ...


It was an act of Israeli resistance to aggression by the _Islamist Entity_™


----------



## Hollie (Jan 21, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


There's a reason why your day job is being a circus clown and not a lawyer.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > You are forgetting that the Palestinians are defending themselves from Zionist settler colonialism.
> ...



Winner.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> You are forgetting that the Palestinians are defending themselves from Zionist settler colonialism.



The Palestinians are "defending themselves" from returnees (immigrants, if you must) of only one ethnic group. The Palestinians are perfectly happy to accept immigrants from different nations as long as they aren't Jewish. They have no problem with "settler colonialism" (obviously, since they are settler colonists).

In other words, the mere presence of Jews is reason enough to kill Jews.  

It would be like Europeans deciding that their Arab immigrants are "settler colonists" and therefore, they were fair game for "resistance" and that killing them is permissible.  The civilized world just does not accept that sort of moral depravity.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I watched the video.  The evidence is very clear, the Israelis were attacked.

When you are so stupid that you attack armed military personnel.... I don't need your lame excuses anymore.  You deserve to be shot, and getting rid of those people, execution style or not, is a benefit to the entire world.

Besides that, assuming your lame excuses of 'execution style' are true, that would still be fair more humane than the way the Arabs kill Jews... beating them in a mass lynching, setting them on fire, and tying them to a bike, and dragging them through the streets.

You give me an option, I'll take one bullet to the head over how the Arabs treat people, any day.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 21, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


WOW, nice rant.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Thanks.  I try and be as direct as possible.  Sorry if that's too blunt.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 21, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > You are forgetting that the Palestinians are defending themselves from Zionist settler colonialism.
> ...


No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.

The only way for the Palestinians to have their state is to proclaim one and accept support from other nations who are prepared to make the Israelis pay for their scofflaw attitude and terrorist actions.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 21, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Well yeah, you trying to explain this to Israelis is a dead end... because you are wrong.   It's that simple.  When you are wrong, trying to prove your wrong position to others, is a waste of time.

And if you try and proclaim a Palestine state, you had best be prepared to occupy the entire land of Israel literally forever.

Because the moment you leave, the Arabs will attack the Israelis, the Israelis will invade, and Palestine will cease to exist.  

So you had best be ready to stay in Israel for eternity.   Given the fact I do not see any country ready to do this....  I highly doubt that will happen any time soon.  Could be wrong.  Doubt it.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 21, 2017)

Eloy said:


> No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.



I have two distinct answers to this:

First,

If you think that "no one" believes that the Jewish people are returning to their homeland, the land of their ancestors, the land they originated in, the land they were forcibly removed from, then you are incapable of understanding, and thus, discussing this conflict.  

The British Mandate believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland (thus:  "reconstituting their national homeland" and "they are here by right and not on sufferance").  Emir Faisal believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland: "We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home." Gandhi said:  "...so that Palestine can be _restored_ to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” (emphasis mine).   And the Jewish people most certainly believe that they are returning to their homeland.  

To say that "no one" believes....is an obvious falsehood.  

Indeed, the idea that the Jewish homeland is NOT Israel and Judea and Samaria is rather a new idea, developed only in the past 70 years or so and directly as a propaganda against Jewish people in the context of the conflict.

Second,

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.  Obviously, undeniably, inarguably, factually true.  You can argue that they no longer have rights to return to those lands -- but to argue that the Jewish people weren't there, that the Jewish people didn't originate there, didn't have history there, didn't exist there is an obvious falsehood. 


You, and others, are trying to make the argument that indigeneity is passed to those who remain on the land, even when the land is overtaken by an invading, conquering, settler colonialist culture and the original culture is disenfranchised, cleansed, forcibly removed or overtaken and converted.  

The problem with your argument is that, held consistently (and by that I mean sans anti-semitism) it legitimizes the Jews colonization of Israel, Juda and Samaria and renders all "Palestinians" living outside of Palestine as foreigners.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.


It is. However they were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

The is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.
> ...



The fact they were not the first people there, isn't in question.  There were other people there, and those people are dead and gone.

To claim they were not the only people there is also not in question.  Various other groups have moved in, and moved out, of the land of Israel.

However, there is only one people group, that has been present in the land of Israel, consistently since the time of David the King.  That is the Jews.

No other group has had a consistent presence in the land.  No other group has claimed it as their nation, like the Jews since the time of David. 

And certainly, without question, no other group anywhere in the world, has a larger and more documented claim on the land of Israel, than the Jews.

The people called "Palestinians" are nothing more than squatters from other countries.  Jordan, Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, and so on.  None are people who have a historic claim on the land.  None.  

Propaganda is the only source for any other claim.  Which is to say, complete and utter lies and fabrications.

Ironically prior to the 1960s, many of this same "palestinians" were insulted to be called Palestinians, and always preferred to be called Jordanians, Egyptians, Arabians and Iraqis. They self-identified as being immigrants.

Only now, when it is good for public opinion and support, do they consider themselves "palestinians".  A fabricated group, to stake a claim on Israel, not to get the land, but to aide in their goal of wiping Israel off the map.   It will not succeed.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.
> ...



Israel, Judea and Samaria were never exclusively Jewish (because that would be morally abhorrent, right?).  Neither are Israel, Judea and Samaria exclusively Jewish now.  

There was, though, most certainly a precedent for Jewish self-determination and self-government.  There is also quite clearly a precedent for saying that the Jewish people can be considered returnees.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 22, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.
> ...


As I have written before, common decency denies the right of European Jews to take the land of indigenous Palestinian Arabs in order to establish a sectarian state. If Emir Faisal believed this he was nuts. Secondly, it was never the intention of the British to set up a sectarian state in Palestine as they were later to do in the north of Ireland but for the Jews to get out of Europe and have a homeland among the indigenous people.

European Jews have no business making territorial designs on Palestinian land and while the rest of the world has accepted the existence of a sectarian Israel, it does not accept that the Occupied Palestinian Territories can be considered part of a Jewish state. If you cannot accept that then you have lost touch with reality.

If a two-state solution continues to be mere lip service for the Israelis then the rest of the world (except the USA) ought to have the courage of its conviction and declare Israel an illegitimate sectarian state and recognize Palestine as a state with full membership of the United Nations.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 22, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Judea and Samaria does not exist and hasn't done so since Andalucía was Hispania Baetica. How European Jews got permission from the international community to create a state based on ancient Biblical locations is one of the world's modern hoaxes playing out far from London and Washington with Palestinians paying the price for this shocking folly.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



We already covered this.  There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs".   No such thing.  Completely fabricated propaganda.

*If you cannot accept that then you have lost touch with reality.*

That's very odd, since what we accept is exactly what is the reality in Israel.  You are claiming we have lost touch with what is actually going on?
*
If a two-state solution continues to be mere lip service for the Israelis then the rest of the world (except the USA) ought to have the courage of its conviction and declare Israel an illegitimate sectarian state and recognize Palestine as a state with full membership of the United Nations.*

Be my guest.  See what happens when Israel smashes Palestine.    You can say whatever you want, and have the UN accept Palestine, but you are thinking foolishly if you expect Israel to just accept what you say.  Not happening.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yeah... hoax.    Right.  2,000 years of history confirmed by dozens of historical sources..... but it's a hoax in your world.

But then you believe in the myth of the 'indigenous Palestinian Arabs', so I'm sure there are some Unicorns and Faries in your world too.


----------



## TheGreatGatsby (Jan 22, 2017)

There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 22, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Yes, we did cover this before and still the thick wall of Israeli propaganda persists.
What is going on are the territorial claims of Zionists on Palestinian land. This is how the state of Israel was formed in 1948 and it forms the essence of Israeli self-image to this day. There is some indication that the rest of the world is coming around to seeing this but, by insisting that they will do nothing to support the Palestinian except call for talking with the Israelis, is to wave goodbye to any constructive role for the international community. The Israelis should be gratified that the Paris summit should turn out to be just as much of a dud as a firecracker sent from Gaza into Israel. Poof! That is over and done with. Like Pilate when the Jews demanded the death of their Messiah, the international community has washed its hands of the Jewish/Palestinian problem.


----------



## Eloy (Jan 22, 2017)

TheGreatGatsby said:


> There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.


No, the two-state solution was the idea that Jews and Muslims could share Palestine. It has nothing to do with American Islamophobia.


----------



## TheGreatGatsby (Jan 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> > There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.
> ...



I don't care about your dickfaced labels. Islam is death.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> > There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.
> ...



Well.... they can't share 'palestine'.   There is only Israel.  There will be only Israel.   If you create a new nation, there will be war, and Israel will win.   So there will still... only be.... Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.


So, when was it that the entire population of Palestine left and whole new bunch of immigrants moved in?

Can you give me a date?


----------



## Eloy (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.
> ...


Oh oh. You let yourself in for another long diatribe that is off topic.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.
> ...


The history of the geographic area called Pal'istan (it must be a different place vs. your invented "country of Pal'istan"), is one of invaders coming and going. The Islamist invaders are just the more recent invaders. 

1924 was a milestone and marked the inevitable clash of Islam's unreformed seventh century doctrine and the modern, civilized world led by the West. The _Muslim Brotherhood was_ established in response to the end of the Caliphate and so any of the Islamist Death Cult all-stars have whined about the humiliation of Moslems in the decades since.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Of course that ducks my question.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


_Nice dodge_™

Your silly one-liners literally shout out your befuddlement.


----------



## Muhammed (Jan 22, 2017)

> *Can Paris summit save two-state solution?*




*No.*


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.
> ...



When was it the entire population of any country left at the same time?   Never.

Asking for something that doesn't exist is stupid.

But the lack of some magic specific date, doesn't prove the claim wrong either.   Don't be an idiot.

There was no 'indigenous Palestinian Arabs' ever.   That never existed.   In fact, the name in itself is a contradiction.   It's the same as saying the 'indigenous Crimean Russians', or the 'indigenous Ukrainian Russians'.   

The only people indigenous today, to the land of Israel, is the Jews.  Prior to the land of Israel, all the people groups with older claims, no longer exist.  The people there now, that are not Jews, are immigrants.

At the very most, prior to the British control of the land, there are roughly 200,000 people that lived there, and some of them were Jews.     The Ottoman empire ruined the land, with bad policies and lack of proper governance.

Most of the people that you claim are "Palestinians" are Egyptian.   Some are Jordan, some are Iraqi, some are Lebanese. 

But the majority are Egyptian.  Some Egyptians fled to Israel (palestine), to avoid conscription.  Deserters.    Some were brought to Israel, as forced labor.    When Egypt was rolled out of Israel by the Ottomans, many Egyptian soldiers deserted the army to stay in Israel.

The only group of non-jews that have been there for any real length of time, is the Bedouin tribes of Arabs.   These showed up around the 7th Century.    But to this day, the Bedouin tribes make up a tiny tiny fraction of the non-Jewish population.   We're talking just a hundred thousand or so.

And quite frankly, if the only group to still be in Israel was the Bedouins, they would live at peace with Israel.    Jews have been accommodating to the Bedouins, and the Bedouins (for the most part) have been accommodating to the Jews.

That isn't to say it's because they have a fondness for each other.  Largely because the Bedouins have been nomadic herders for generations, and that doesn't conflict with the Jews.

Again, I'm not suggesting there are no examples of conflict between the two, only that largely they don't bother each other, as opposed to how Hamas and the IDF do.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> There was no 'indigenous Palestinian Arabs' ever.


Do Palestinians have to be Arab? I don't see the relevance.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 22, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...




Everything you wrote is Zionist propaganda. The Muslims and Christian Palestinians at the time of the British occupation were the descendants of the indigenous people of Palestine.  Why would Egyptians go to Palestine to be conscripted into the Ottoman Army. LOL You people crack me up.

You are full of crap. Now the facts:

*AN INTERIM REPORT*
*ON THE*
*CIVIL ADMINISTRATION*
*OF*

*PALESTINE,*

*during the period*
*1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.*


*AN INTERIM REPORT*
*ON THE*
*CIVIL ADMINISTRATION*
*OF*
*PALESTINE.*

*I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.*

"There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*_See_ Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. *Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews.
*
Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Most of the people that you claim are "Palestinians" are Egyptian. Some are Jordan, some are Iraqi, some are Lebanese.


You are forgetting that a hundred years ago they were all the same place. Moving from Amman to Jaffa was no different than moving from Albany to Buffalo. Somebody drawing a line between them does not make them foreigners.

The defining factor was when the Turkish Empire was divided into separate states in 1924. All of the people who normally lived in the territory that became Palestine became Palestinians. That was the recognized law of state succession. Palestinians are Palestinians by fact and law.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > There was no 'indigenous Palestinian Arabs' ever.
> ...



In their Charters and Declarations of Independence, the Palestinians claim to be part of the larger Arab nation in the very first paragraphs.  So obviously being Arab is very important to their identity.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



That report only states the composition of the population at that particular point in time.  There's nothing in that report to indicate that those people were direct descendants of the original inhabitants of the land.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Well, none of them were cave men if that is what you mean.

There was nothing in the report because it is irrelevant.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 22, 2017)

President Donald J Trump...Goodbye "2 State" Solution.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> President Donald J Trump...Goodbye "2 State" Solution.


Good, we can stop beating that dead horse. The two state solution died in 1937.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > President Donald J Trump...Goodbye "2 State" Solution.
> ...


As did any deal between 2 Arab States.
Yep, they murder each other so Jews should trust them.
You're such a schmuck.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the people that you claim are "Palestinians" are Egyptian. Some are Jordan, some are Iraqi, some are Lebanese.
> ...



No, I get that.    That doesn't change anything I said though.   They are all still immigrants from other places.  They were not "indigenous" to that land.   The same is true of Ukrainian Russians.  Yes, under soviet domination, they could move to and from Ukraine like it was nothing.  That doesn't mean they are magically "indigenous" to Ukraine.   They are Russians.

No, they are not Palestinians.   And if they are by law, the law is wrong.  And quite frankly, the Jews are going to kick them out, whether you claim they have a law saying so or not.  So... too bad.  Better move on, before you end up killed, eh?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 22, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Pffft, we already know that Israel doesn't give a rat's ass about any law.

That will eventually catch up to them.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Well if that's true then yes.  If you are referring to a morally wrong law, that says others should have their land.... no.  It won't. Promise you.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 23, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.
> ...









It would be fair to say, no-one who has researched the subject objectively, "believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland." Zionists and their stooges, however cling to the propaganda and misinformation that  spews out of the Zionist Hasbara machine.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 23, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Ironically prior to the 1960s, many of this same "palestinians" were insulted to be called Palestinians, and always preferred to be called Jordanians, Egyptians, Arabians and Iraqis. They self-identified as being immigrants.



Yeah, the Hasbarists keep coming up with this a lot, care to provide a link to a credible source for this assertion?


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 25, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



I like that.  You provided a meter of your own post, for our benefit.  Kudos for providing such an accurate meter for us.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 25, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


----------



## Hollie (Jan 25, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



It's actually comical when the goofy converts are left to spam the board with repetitive cutting and pasting.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 26, 2017)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



It reminds me of what childish people I mistakenly talk to.    Any adult would have found some point of debate to respond with.  He of course, reposts a pict, without words.    Showing he had even less to add to the discussion than I had assumed.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 26, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



Oh, was that supposed to be a substantive contribution on your part? I thought you were just venting from your rear end.


----------



## Andylusion (Jan 28, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



I was trying to talk to you, at the level of intelligence you displayed.  My bad.  Clearly I over estimated.


----------



## Challenger (Jan 30, 2017)

Andylusion said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Still waiting for your response to my post #398, but it seems you prefer to deflect and continue to vent from your rear end, like a typical Hasbarist.


----------

