# Celebs and Plastic Surgery



## ChrisL

So . . . what do you think about celebs and plastic surgery?  Do you think they've crossed a line in order to maintain their beauty and youth?  What do you think about the doctors who perform these surgeries.  Some of them will perform multiple surgeries on the same patient, even though there are always risks involved with general anesthesia.  

Does anyone else think that some celebrities who have had plastic surgery look like the Joker?   

Let's compare, shall we?  

















Good grief, if anyone does NOT need plastic surgery, it is Katherine Zeta Jones!!!


----------



## Esmeralda

I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.


----------



## Esmeralda

Esmeralda said:


> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.


Joanne Woodward is one of the film actresses I admire.  She allowed herself to age naturally. I believe she did that because of personal self confidence.  That in itself is admirable.


----------



## ChrisL

Esmeralda said:


> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.



and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.


----------



## ChrisL

Esmeralda said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Joanne Woodward is one of the film actresses I admire.  She allowed herself to age naturally. I believe she did that because of personal self confidence.  That in itself is admirable.
Click to expand...


Exactly, she is lovely woman!  It's kind of rotten when you think of the pressure that Hollywood puts upon women to remain young-looking.  You don't see that kind of pressure on men because they aren't judged on their appearance alone.  This, of course, overflows into regular society and we feel this pressure that we always have to look beautiful and young.


----------



## Esmeralda

_I am not familiar with this actress.  Which is before and which is after? 

But I agree with the point: they definitely should  not do anything to themselves when they are young: the only thing that seems reasonable to me is if you have a really bad nose. I can understand a nose job in that case.  If it is truly awful, not just imperfect._


----------



## R.D.

That second woman is Kim Novak.   I was shocked.


----------



## ChrisL

Esmeralda said:


> _I am not familiar with this actress.  Which is before and which is after?
> 
> But I agree with the point: they definitely should  not do anything to themselves when they are young: the only thing that seems reasonable to me is if you have a really bad nose. I can understand a nose job in that case.  If it is truly awful, not just imperfect._



If you are referring to Megan Fox, the first one is the before and the second one is after.


----------



## ChrisL

Esmeralda said:


> _I am not familiar with this actress.  Which is before and which is after?
> 
> But I agree with the point: they definitely should  not do anything to themselves when they are young: the only thing that seems reasonable to me is if you have a really bad nose. I can understand a nose job in that case.  If it is truly awful, not just imperfect._



and let's not ignore the "strictly" cosmetic plastic surgeons here either.  I'm quite sure that when women go in their to have a procedure, they are busy pointing out her "flaws" in order to convince her to get even more surgery.  It seems a bit unethical IMO.  

However, most plastic surgeons, who aren't strictly into the purely cosmetic side of plastic surgery, are invaluable for reconstructing people's faces who have been in accidents, etc.


----------



## ChrisL

R.D. said:


> That second woman is Kim Novak.   I was shocked.



It looks so unnatural and "joker" like IMO.


----------



## AquaAthena

ChrisL said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
Click to expand...

The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful] 

The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.

Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.


----------



## R.D.

I feel bad for these people vanity made them go under thee knife and like bad Karma they come out  worse than before.


----------



## ChrisL

AquaAthena said:


> The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful]
> 
> The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.
> 
> Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.



Yup, Michael Jackson and Bruce Jenner immediately come to mind!  

Good God!    MJ was SO much cuter before.


----------



## AquaAthena

ChrisL said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> _I am not familiar with this actress.  Which is before and which is after?
> 
> But I agree with the point: they definitely should  not do anything to themselves when they are young: the only thing that seems reasonable to me is if you have a really bad nose. I can understand a nose job in that case.  If it is truly awful, not just imperfect._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and let's not ignore the "strictly" cosmetic plastic surgeons here either.  I'm quite sure that when women go in their to have a procedure, they are busy pointing out her "flaws" in order to convince her to get even more surgery.  It seems a bit unethical IMO.
> 
> However, most plastic surgeons, who aren't strictly into the purely cosmetic side of plastic surgery, are invaluable for reconstructing people's faces who have been in accidents, etc.
Click to expand...

Yes they are. 

Joan Rivers, in an interview, said she respected her surgeon who always told her whether she should have something more done and he would say, _no, at least not yet._ He surely is a skilled surgeon. He made her look just as she wished, with no evidence of botching.


----------



## ChrisL

This one is a shocker.  This is Heidi Montag, and I believe she started having operations at just 17 years old.  She looks like a completely different person now, and I thought she was just adorable before.  Now, she just looks like another run of the mill porn star, IMO.  She had plastic surgery on just about EVERYTHING on her body.


----------



## ChrisL

AquaAthena said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> _I am not familiar with this actress.  Which is before and which is after?
> 
> But I agree with the point: they definitely should  not do anything to themselves when they are young: the only thing that seems reasonable to me is if you have a really bad nose. I can understand a nose job in that case.  If it is truly awful, not just imperfect._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and let's not ignore the "strictly" cosmetic plastic surgeons here either.  I'm quite sure that when women go in their to have a procedure, they are busy pointing out her "flaws" in order to convince her to get even more surgery.  It seems a bit unethical IMO.
> 
> However, most plastic surgeons, who aren't strictly into the purely cosmetic side of plastic surgery, are invaluable for reconstructing people's faces who have been in accidents, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes they are.
> 
> Joan Rivers, in an interview, said she respected her surgeon who always told her whether she should have something more done and he would say, _no, at least not yet._ He surely is a skilled surgeon. He made her look just as she wished, with no evidence of botching.
Click to expand...


Oh, most of them are definitely skilled, but every time you go under general anesthesia there is the risk of dying or other horrible complications.


----------



## Stephanie

It's not just the celebrities. have you seen some of these OLD fart Democrats getting face lifts? trying to make themselves look younger to appeal to the kiddies I guess

Lucrch Jon Kerry-scary
Hillary the queen Clinton-not fooling anyone
Joey buffon Biden-scary
the queen of plastic-PELOSI- Im waiting for her face to crack off


----------



## ChrisL

Stephanie said:


> It's not just the celebrities. have you seen some of these OLD fart Democrats getting face lifts? trying to make themselves look younger to appeal to the kiddies I guess
> 
> Lucrch Jon Kerry-scary
> Hillary the queen Clinton-not fooling anyone
> Joey buffon Biden-scary
> the queen of plastic-PELOSI- Im waiting for her face to crack off



Yeah, well, this isn't a political thread.  It's about celebrities and the pressure they are under to look young and beautiful at all costs.


----------



## ChrisL

If I were one of Heidi Montag's parents, I would be absolutely heartbroken.  I would have told her to please don't do this and that she is still so young, vibrant and gorgeous.  

I cannot imagine having my daughter (I don't have a daughter to be clear, just imagining - lol) coming home and looking like a completely different person, because as her parent I would think she was already the most beautiful girl in the world.


----------



## Stephanie

ChrisL said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not just the celebrities. have you seen some of these OLD fart Democrats getting face lifts? trying to make themselves look younger to appeal to the kiddies I guess
> 
> Lucrch Jon Kerry-scary
> Hillary the queen Clinton-not fooling anyone
> Joey buffon Biden-scary
> the queen of plastic-PELOSI- Im waiting for her face to crack off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, well, this isn't a political thread.  It's about celebrities and the pressure they are under to look young and beautiful at all costs.
Click to expand...



oh I didn't see those rules I guess, deargawd can you forgive me
sheeesh


----------



## ChrisL

Stephanie said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not just the celebrities. have you seen some of these OLD fart Democrats getting face lifts? trying to make themselves look younger to appeal to the kiddies I guess
> 
> Lucrch Jon Kerry-scary
> Hillary the queen Clinton-not fooling anyone
> Joey buffon Biden-scary
> the queen of plastic-PELOSI- Im waiting for her face to crack off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, well, this isn't a political thread.  It's about celebrities and the pressure they are under to look young and beautiful at all costs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> oh I didn't see those rules I guess, deargawd can you forgive me
> sheeesh
Click to expand...


I'll think about it.


----------



## ChrisL

@Darlene 

I'm sure you will have some strong opinions about this subject.


----------



## R.D.

Politicians aren't celebs?

Political plastic surgeries SLIDESHOW The Daily Caller


----------



## Esmeralda

R.D. said:


> That second woman is Kim Novak.   I was shocked.


I didn't even realize that was her.  How sad.


----------



## ChrisL

R.D. said:


> Politicians aren't celebs?
> 
> Political plastic surgeries SLIDESHOW The Daily Caller



Look, I want to leave the politics OUT.  I don't want this thread to turn into a political bashing party . . . K?


----------



## Esmeralda

I agree.  Let's keep politics out of it.  There are plenty of avenues here for political discussion w/o making this thread about politics too.


----------



## ChrisL

Esmeralda said:


> I agree.  Let's keep politics out of it.  There are plenty of avenues here for political discussion w/o making this thread about politics too.



Well, you know what will end up happening?  It will become like all of the other crappy boring threads out there, democrat versus republican crap!  *barf*


----------



## Stephanie

what whiners

the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers

the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times


----------



## mudwhistle

Some people are never satisfied with their appearance. Some have ruined their careers by doing plastic surgery.


----------



## PoliticalChic

AquaAthena said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful]
> 
> The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.
> 
> Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.
Click to expand...



I'm with it: have you seen Queen Latifah and Chaka Khan???


----------



## Esmeralda

ChrisL said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  Let's keep politics out of it.  There are plenty of avenues here for political discussion w/o making this thread about politics too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you know what will end up happening?  It will become like all of the other crappy boring threads out there, democrat versus republican crap!  *barf*
Click to expand...

I like your style!


----------



## Iceweasel

I'm not sure it's all surgery, he looks like he's been on 'roids.


----------



## ChrisL

mudwhistle said:


> Some people are never satisfied with their appearance. Some have ruined their careers by doing plastic surgery.



True, but society also puts pressure on women to be young and beautiful.  As most women celebrities age, they start to lose roles to younger, more attractive women.  That is a fact.  Women are judged on appearances alone in a lot of cases, and this is usually done by men.  

When you were always "beautiful" and start aging and losing out to younger women, the pressure must be quite intense.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> I'm not sure it's all surgery, he looks like he's been on 'roids.



Who is that?


----------



## ChrisL

PoliticalChic said:


> AquaAthena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful]
> 
> The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.
> 
> Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with it: have you seen Queen Latifah and Chaka Khan???
Click to expand...


Post some pics!  Are you saying you think their surgeries were an improvement?  I'm sure that in some cases they may be, but the risks involved are really quite high in order to have a prettier nose.


----------



## AquaAthena

AquaAthena said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful]
> 
> The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.
> 
> Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.
Click to expand...








ChrisL said:


> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure it's all surgery, he looks like he's been on 'roids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who is that?
Click to expand...


----------



## AquaAthena

AquaAthena said:


> AquaAthena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful]
> 
> The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.
> 
> Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure it's all surgery, he looks like he's been on 'roids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Mickey Rourke. He used to be so hot-looking.


----------



## ChrisL

AquaAthena said:


> AquaAthena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful]
> 
> The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.
> 
> Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iceweasel said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure it's all surgery, he looks like he's been on 'roids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Oh, Mickey Rourke.  His surgery MUST have been botched.  My God!!!  He was SO handsome at one time.  How sad.


----------



## AquaAthena

No, IW,it was all over the news of his botched surgery, a few years ago.


----------



## ChrisL

R.D. said:


> Politicians aren't celebs?
> 
> Political plastic surgeries SLIDESHOW The Daily Caller



Some of those are pretty bad.  Lol.  But I'd prefer to stick with just celebrities if you don't mind.  Sorry if I came across as rude, but I was just trying to be firm about it.


----------



## ChrisL

AquaAthena said:


> No, IW,it was all over the news of his botched surgery, a few years ago.



Just another risk.  Anything can wrong.  I wonder if he's in pain.  If the nerves are damaged in a botched operation, that can really have some horrible side effects.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Celebrities are a kind of prostitute. They earn their living by looking good. You'll notice you don't see any stars in tv shows or in movies who have an acne problem. When you're paid that much, you do whatever you can to look good and ensure the fame and adoration continues. As celebs get older and their bodies change they resort to cosmetic surgery often times. Nature of the beast. Until we as fans quit caring so much about how people look heaping our superficial fair-weather love onto them, they'll keep making sure we continue loving them for looking nice. 

Celeb cosmetic surgery is our fault, not their's.


----------



## ChrisL

I'm just a regular woman, and I feel the pressure.  I feel uncomfortable to leave my house without looking my best.  I'm afraid that people would look at me and think I was ugly or something.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> So . . . what do you think about celebs and plastic surgery?  Do you think they've crossed a line in order to maintain their beauty and youth?  What do you think about the doctors who perform these surgeries.  Some of them will perform multiple surgeries on the same patient, even though there are always risks involved with general anesthesia.
> 
> Does anyone else think that some celebrities who have had plastic surgery look like the Joker?
> 
> Let's compare, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief, if anyone does NOT need plastic surgery, it is Katherine Zeta Jones!!!



Megan Fox in particular seems to have taken a distinct turn "downhill" because of it.






At 28, she's only 2 years older than I am. However, she looks _waaaay_ older.

It's sad, really.

Edit:

Lol. I didn't realize it'd be posted so many times before.


----------



## PoliticalChic

ChrisL said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AquaAthena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fountain of youth is their motivator and most of them look like old people trying to look young.  Shame Elizabeth Taylor started the trend when she was 14 and had a nose clip. [according to to an article I read, that may or may not be truthful]
> 
> The only thing moving on the faces of many, are the lips, and these days the upper one is filled with collagen, making it larger than the bottom one which is _usually _1.5 times larger than the top one at birth.
> 
> Men are having it done too, now.  Hollyweird!    Plastic fantastic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with it: have you seen Queen Latifah and Chaka Khan???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post some pics!  Are you saying you think their surgeries were an improvement?  I'm sure that in some cases they may be, but the risks involved are really quite high in order to have a prettier nose.
Click to expand...



"....the risks involved...."

But they are risks assumed by an individual, and after careful consideration.

Believe it or not, some folks actually  took the risk of voting for Barack Obama (peace be on him).


----------



## Mad Scientist

To be fair, Mickey Rourke got his face smashed in during his "I wanna' be a Boxer" phase. I guess he tried to fix it and that was the result.

*Formerly* hot Megan Fox now looks like a Tranny. Yuck!



ChrisL said:


>


----------



## Darlene

Stephanie said:


> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times


You think Joan Rivers' surgery was good? Ha! That's hilarious. I think all plastic surgery is a fraud.


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> True, but society also puts pressure on women to be young and beautiful.  As most women celebrities age, they start to lose roles to younger, more attractive women.  That is a fact.  Women are judged on appearances alone in a lot of cases, and this is usually done by men.
> 
> When you were always "beautiful" and start aging and losing out to younger women, the pressure must be quite intense.


Sorry, I don't buy it. That sounds like typical 'it's always a guy's fault' logic. Yes, many women skate by on their looks and face the grim facts of life when they loose their looks but other women develop a skill set and rely on that. 

To offer a celebrity example I recently saw a movie with Meryl Streep, who I don't care for personally but it was one hell of an acting job. The movie was Osage County or something like that. She may even have been made up older looking, whatever the case her looks were not flattering.


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> I'm just a regular woman, and I feel the pressure.  I feel uncomfortable to leave my house without looking my best.  I'm afraid that people would look at me and think I was ugly or something.


Fuckem. Let them think what they want, you don't owe them anything. Live on the edge! Step out without the war paint.


----------



## Iceweasel

Mad Scientist said:


> To be fair, Mickey Rourke got his face smashed in during his "I wanna' be a Boxer" phase. I guess he tried to fix it and that was the result.


I was wondering about that. He bulked up pretty good and steroids can add density to the face as well. He must have taken a hell of a beating!


----------



## JOSweetHeart

Delta4Embassy said:


> Until we as fans quit caring so much about how people look heaping our superficial fair-weather love onto them, they'll keep making sure we continue loving them for looking nice.
> 
> Celeb cosmetic surgery is our fault, not their's.


The way that they look is not the reason why my favorites are my favorites.   

God bless you and them always!!!   

Holly


----------



## R.D.

I know Queen Latifah had breast reduction, but if she had her face done it was good.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, but society also puts pressure on women to be young and beautiful.  As most women celebrities age, they start to lose roles to younger, more attractive women.  That is a fact.  Women are judged on appearances alone in a lot of cases, and this is usually done by men.
> 
> When you were always "beautiful" and start aging and losing out to younger women, the pressure must be quite intense.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I don't buy it. That sounds like typical 'it's always a guy's fault' logic. Yes, many women skate by on their looks and face the grim facts of life when they loose their looks but other women develop a skill set and rely on that.
> 
> To offer a celebrity example I recently saw a movie with Meryl Streep, who I don't care for personally but it was one hell of an acting job. The movie was Osage County or something like that. She may even have been made up older looking, whatever the case her looks were not flattering.
Click to expand...


Are you a male?  If so, you must know that I'm correct.  Men most certainly judge women based upon their appearances.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> So . . . what do you think about celebs and plastic surgery?  Do you think they've crossed a line in order to maintain their beauty and youth?  What do you think about the doctors who perform these surgeries.  Some of them will perform multiple surgeries on the same patient, even though there are always risks involved with general anesthesia.
> 
> Does anyone else think that some celebrities who have had plastic surgery look like the Joker?
> 
> Let's compare, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief, if anyone does NOT need plastic surgery, it is Katherine Zeta Jones!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Megan Fox in particular seems to have taken a distinct turn "downhill" because of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 28, she's only 2 years older than I am. However, she looks _waaaay_ older.
> 
> It's sad, really.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Lol. I didn't realize it'd be posted so many times before.
Click to expand...


What about the others I posted?  Joker or no joker?


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> What about the others I posted?  Joker or no joker?



I can certainly see the resemblance. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I can see some other comparisons as well, come to think of it.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about the others I posted?  Joker or no joker?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can certainly see the resemblance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see some other comparisons as well, come to think of it.
Click to expand...


Bwaaa-haa-ha!  I love it!


----------



## Noomi

R.D. said:


> I feel bad for these people vanity made them go under thee knife and like bad Karma they come out  worse than before.



But with Tori Spelling, not even a paper bag over her head could fix that.


----------



## Noomi

Stephanie said:


> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times



Good surgery? Joan had SOME good surgery, but way too much. Most of her photos are not at all flattering if you look closely, and her nose was ruined years ago from so many tweaks.


----------



## ChrisL

Noomi said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good surgery? Joan had SOME good surgery, but way too much. Most of her photos are not at all flattering if you look closely, and her nose was ruined years ago from so many tweaks.
Click to expand...


Her nose is really messed up looking, very similar to MJ's.


----------



## Noomi

ChrisL said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good surgery? Joan had SOME good surgery, but way too much. Most of her photos are not at all flattering if you look closely, and her nose was ruined years ago from so many tweaks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Her nose is really messed up looking, very similar to MJ's.
Click to expand...


She def went overboard with the nose. Way overboard.


----------



## Toronado3800

This makes me think of a South Park episode based around a pretty vs interesting idea.  It seemed people listened to the pretty girls talk about idiotic things.  As I have aged and I know more gals AND guys who have aged it is amazing who no longer commands the attention in public.  Happens to the poor gals first but enough of my guy friends seem to have had a rough life.

This makes me understand the plastic surgery.  Especially for folks who have their looks make up a large percentage of their self worth.

Like all things it can be taken too far.  Tons of gals can add a cup or two and get more cleavage stares.  Some just take it to an extreme and get a different kind of stare.


----------



## ChrisL

Toronado3800 said:


> This makes me think of a South Park episode based around a pretty vs interesting idea.  It seemed people listened to the pretty girls talk about idiotic things.  As I have aged and I know more gals AND guys who have aged it is amazing who no longer commands the attention in public.  Happens to the poor gals first but enough of my guy friends seem to have had a rough life.
> 
> This makes me understand the plastic surgery.  Especially for folks who have their looks make up a large percentage of their self worth.
> 
> Like all things it can be taken too far.  Tons of gals can add a cup or two and get more cleavage stares.  Some just take it to an extreme and get a different kind of stare.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Joanne Woodward is one of the film actresses I admire.  She allowed herself to age naturally. I believe she did that because of personal self confidence.  That in itself is admirable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly, she is lovely woman!  It's kind of rotten when you think of the pressure that Hollywood puts upon women to remain young-looking.  You don't see that kind of pressure on men because they aren't judged on their appearance alone.  This, of course, overflows into regular society and we feel this pressure that we always have to look beautiful and young.
Click to expand...


But Hollywood doesn't put that pressure on, not really. It's the public. Young beautiful starlets reap an unearned reward for their beauty because the public enjoys looking at beautiful women. Age takes away that beauty and the public doesn't so much like looking at old women. You could, say, magically reform Hollywood and the public reaction would still be in place.

You're right, men aren't judged as much on their appearance and they also don't get the same benefits afforded to beautiful women. 

There is no injustice here. No one is snatching away from beautiful women something that they've earned for themselves.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Joanne Woodward is one of the film actresses I admire.  She allowed herself to age naturally. I believe she did that because of personal self confidence.  That in itself is admirable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly, she is lovely woman!  It's kind of rotten when you think of the pressure that Hollywood puts upon women to remain young-looking.  You don't see that kind of pressure on men because they aren't judged on their appearance alone.  This, of course, overflows into regular society and we feel this pressure that we always have to look beautiful and young.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But Hollywood doesn't put that pressure on, not really. It's the public. Young beautiful starlets reap an unearned reward for their beauty because the public enjoys looking at beautiful women. Age takes away that beauty and the public doesn't so much like looking at old women. You could, say, magically reform Hollywood and the public reaction would still be in place.
> 
> You're right, men aren't judged as much on their appearance and they also don't get the same benefits afforded to beautiful women.
> 
> There is no injustice here. No one is snatching away from beautiful women something that they've earned for themselves.
Click to expand...


I'm not saying that they earned anything.  I'm saying that society and Hollywood put a lot of pressure on actresses to remain young and beautiful.  This is the reason why these women mutilate themselves.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Sgt_Gath said:


> Megan Fox in particular seems to have taken a distinct turn "downhill" because of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 28, she's only 2 years older than I am. However, she looks _waaaay_ older.
> 
> It's sad, really.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Lol. I didn't realize it'd be posted so many times before.



That looks more like weight gain than plastic surgery. Here she is post baby #2 this year. The first photo is from Jan 2014 and the 2nd photo is from Feb. 2014


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> Megan Fox in particular seems to have taken a distinct turn "downhill" because of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 28, she's only 2 years older than I am. However, she looks _waaaay_ older.
> 
> It's sad, really.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Lol. I didn't realize it'd be posted so many times before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That looks more like weight gain than plastic surgery. Here she is post baby #2 this year. The first photo is from Jan 2014 and the 2nd photo is from Feb. 2014
Click to expand...


Her face was fuller before.  I'm pretty sure she wasn't preggers in either photo.  Did you see the dates on the photos?


----------



## ChrisL

I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.


----------



## Political Junky

Darlene said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times
> 
> 
> 
> You think Joan Rivers' surgery was good? Ha! That's hilarious. I think all plastic surgery is a fraud.
Click to expand...

I agree, Joan Rivers looked awful. She's one of those who didn't know when to stop.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Joanne Woodward is one of the film actresses I admire.  She allowed herself to age naturally. I believe she did that because of personal self confidence.  That in itself is admirable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly, she is lovely woman!  It's kind of rotten when you think of the pressure that Hollywood puts upon women to remain young-looking.  You don't see that kind of pressure on men because they aren't judged on their appearance alone.  This, of course, overflows into regular society and we feel this pressure that we always have to look beautiful and young.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But Hollywood doesn't put that pressure on, not really. It's the public. Young beautiful starlets reap an unearned reward for their beauty because the public enjoys looking at beautiful women. Age takes away that beauty and the public doesn't so much like looking at old women. You could, say, magically reform Hollywood and the public reaction would still be in place.
> 
> You're right, men aren't judged as much on their appearance and they also don't get the same benefits afforded to beautiful women.
> 
> There is no injustice here. No one is snatching away from beautiful women something that they've earned for themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that they earned anything.  I'm saying that society and Hollywood put a lot of pressure on actresses to remain young and beautiful.  This is the reason why these women mutilate themselves.
Click to expand...


I can't recall exactly which movie it was, either North Dallas 40 or Semi-Toough, but there was a lot of pressure on an injured player to shoot cortisone into his injured knee so that he could prolong his time int he NFL.

I'm just not seeing this pressure argument in play. These actresses could retire or shift to supporting roles but they don't want that, they want to prolong their time at the top. The only pressure comes from within themselves. Same with the athletes.


----------



## ChrisL

And what about Heidi?  Yikes!  And where is she now?  She should have kept her "girl next door" image, IMO.  She was so cute.


----------



## Gracie

Vanity. That is all it is.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Joanne Woodward is one of the film actresses I admire.  She allowed herself to age naturally. I believe she did that because of personal self confidence.  That in itself is admirable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly, she is lovely woman!  It's kind of rotten when you think of the pressure that Hollywood puts upon women to remain young-looking.  You don't see that kind of pressure on men because they aren't judged on their appearance alone.  This, of course, overflows into regular society and we feel this pressure that we always have to look beautiful and young.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But Hollywood doesn't put that pressure on, not really. It's the public. Young beautiful starlets reap an unearned reward for their beauty because the public enjoys looking at beautiful women. Age takes away that beauty and the public doesn't so much like looking at old women. You could, say, magically reform Hollywood and the public reaction would still be in place.
> 
> You're right, men aren't judged as much on their appearance and they also don't get the same benefits afforded to beautiful women.
> 
> There is no injustice here. No one is snatching away from beautiful women something that they've earned for themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that they earned anything.  I'm saying that society and Hollywood put a lot of pressure on actresses to remain young and beautiful.  This is the reason why these women mutilate themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't recall exactly which movie it was, either North Dallas 40 or Semi-Toough, but there was a lot of pressure on an injured player to shoot cortisone into his injured knee so that he could prolong his time int he NFL.
> 
> I'm just not seeing this pressure argument in play. These actresses could retire or shift to supporting roles but they don't want that, they want to prolong their time at the top. The only pressure comes from within themselves. Same with the athletes.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but I don't think that what you describe is nearly as widespread an issue.  This issue with youthfulness and beauty goes beyond Hollywood and seeps into regular society and regular girls, who then have self esteem issues.  Add onto that, they listen to and admire "artists" such as Nicki Minaj, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Teen girls are incredibly susceptible to this kind of stuff.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> Megan Fox in particular seems to have taken a distinct turn "downhill" because of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 28, she's only 2 years older than I am. However, she looks _waaaay_ older.
> 
> It's sad, really.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Lol. I didn't realize it'd be posted so many times before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That looks more like weight gain than plastic surgery. Here she is post baby #2 this year. The first photo is from Jan 2014 and the 2nd photo is from Feb. 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Her face was fuller before.  I'm pretty sure she wasn't preggers in either photo.  Did you see the dates on the photos?
Click to expand...


I saw the dates on the articles, that's good enough for me. Both from 2014. Why would US Magazine and Perez use old photos when newer ones are coming up every week?

Keep in mind what happens when people age. Skin loses elasticity, we fill out and so when we diet, there is a harsher look to the contours.

Speaking of plastic surgery, here is the most infamous case of plastic surgery over indulgence


----------



## ChrisL

Gracie said:


> Vanity. That is all it is.



I think it can become almost like an addiction too, like in the cases of Joan Rivers and MJ.  They must really have some self esteem issues to begin with to want to become entirely different people IMO.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sorry, but I don't think that what you describe is nearly as widespread an issue. * This issue with youthfulness and beauty goes beyond Hollywood and seeps into regular society and regular girls*, who then have self esteem issues.  Add onto that, they listen to and admire "artists" such as Nicki Minaj, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Teen girls are incredibly susceptible to this kind of stuff.



Yeah, that's the nature of life. Young girls are hugely attractive. This is the best that they're ever going to look in their entire lives. They're spoiled by all the male attention. They don't want to give that up as they age and see younger women coming up behind them. This isn't something that a campaign can fix - this is human nature.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> I saw the dates on the articles, that's good enough for me. Both from 2014. Why would US Magazine and Perez use old photos when newer ones are coming up every week?
> 
> Keep in mind what happens when people age. Skin loses elasticity, we fill out and so when we diet, there is a harsher look to the contours.
> 
> Speaking of plastic surgery, here is the most infamous case of plastic surgery over indulgence




Gah!!!    That is horrible!  I hope she sued the butcher.  

Well, at 36, I'm older than Megan, and my cheek bones haven't moved up on my face yet.  Lol!  Seriously, she had cheek implants.  She's only 28!!!  She isn't aging yet!


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the dates on the articles, that's good enough for me. Both from 2014. Why would US Magazine and Perez use old photos when newer ones are coming up every week?
> 
> Keep in mind what happens when people age. Skin loses elasticity, we fill out and so when we diet, there is a harsher look to the contours.
> 
> Speaking of plastic surgery, here is the most infamous case of plastic surgery over indulgence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gah!!!    That is horrible!  I hope she sued the butcher.
> 
> Well, at 36, I'm older than Megan, and my cheek bones haven't moved up on my face yet.  Lol!  Seriously, she had cheek implants.  She's only 28!!!  She isn't aging yet!
Click to expand...


Click the link and read about here. Her face is not the result of one plastic surgery. She set out to look like a cat. Check out all the images on google image search.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I don't think that what you describe is nearly as widespread an issue. * This issue with youthfulness and beauty goes beyond Hollywood and seeps into regular society and regular girls*, who then have self esteem issues.  Add onto that, they listen to and admire "artists" such as Nicki Minaj, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Teen girls are incredibly susceptible to this kind of stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's the nature of life. Young girls are hugely attractive. This is the best that they're ever going to look in their entire lives. They're spoiled by all the male attention. They don't want to give that up as they age and see younger women coming up behind them. This isn't something that a campaign can fix - this is human nature.
Click to expand...


You are completely missing the point.  The point is that this encourages unhealthy habits and ideas in young girls.  I read a story about a mom who had her daughter get Botox when she was 8.  The saddest part was that the little girl actually thought she had wrinkles.  How effing sad is that?  I can just imagine the train wreck she's going to be as an adult.  

Mom gives Botox to 8-year-old daughter...Say what - Parents - TODAY.com



> As for Britney, she's allegedly fine – even thankful – of her mom's efforts. "My friends think it's cool I have all the treatments and they want to be like me. I check every night for wrinkles, and when I see some I want more injections," the 8-year-old says.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Well, at 36, I'm older than Megan, and my cheek bones haven't moved up on my face yet.  Lol!  *Seriously, she had cheek implants.*  She's only 28!!!  She isn't aging yet!



I don't think she had cheek implants. The distance from her eye to her cheek looks about the same in 2007 and 2014, what's changed is that there is less facial fat underneath her cheek bone, thus giving more prominence to the cheek bone.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at 36, I'm older than Megan, and my cheek bones haven't moved up on my face yet.  Lol!  *Seriously, she had cheek implants.*  She's only 28!!!  She isn't aging yet!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think she had cheek implants. The distance from her eye to her cheek looks about the same in 2007 and 2014, what's changed is that there is less facial fat underneath her cheek bone, thus giving more prominence to the cheek bone.
Click to expand...


Good Lord!  She hasn't lost that much fat at 28 years old!  She is a Hollywood celebrity.  Of course she had cosmetic surgery!  Why would you doubt that?  Pretty much ALL of them have had at least something done.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I don't think that what you describe is nearly as widespread an issue. * This issue with youthfulness and beauty goes beyond Hollywood and seeps into regular society and regular girls*, who then have self esteem issues.  Add onto that, they listen to and admire "artists" such as Nicki Minaj, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Teen girls are incredibly susceptible to this kind of stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's the nature of life. Young girls are hugely attractive. This is the best that they're ever going to look in their entire lives. They're spoiled by all the male attention. They don't want to give that up as they age and see younger women coming up behind them. This isn't something that a campaign can fix - this is human nature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are completely missing the point.  The point is that this encourages unhealthy habits and ideas in young girls.  I read a story about a mom who had her daughter get Botox when she was 8.  The saddest part was that the little girl actually thought she had wrinkles.  How effing sad is that?  I can just imagine the train wreck she's going to be as an adult.
> 
> Mom gives Botox to 8-year-old daughter...Say what - Parents - TODAY.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Britney, she's allegedly fine – even thankful – of her mom's efforts. "My friends think it's cool I have all the treatments and they want to be like me. I check every night for wrinkles, and when I see some I want more injections," the 8-year-old says.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



I thought you were talking about women's views on youth and beauty, not plastic surgery. Yeah, I see your point about the mainstreaming of PS as a means to keep something that is fading or to enhance one's appearance.

As for the 8 year old, idiot parents, what can you do?


----------



## Stephanie

Political Junky said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times
> 
> 
> 
> You think Joan Rivers' surgery was good? Ha! That's hilarious. I think all plastic surgery is a fraud.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree, Joan Rivers looked awful. She's one of those who didn't know when to stop.
Click to expand...



yeah she had a lot of surgery,  but I thought she looked OK and she was 81 YEARS old


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> I thought you were talking about women's views on youth and beauty, not plastic surgery. Yeah, I see your point about the mainstreaming of PS as a means to keep something that is fading or to enhance one's appearance.



I'm talking about both, women and girls.  It's overall unhealthy for both.  Don't you think?  



> As for the 8 year old, idiot parents, what can you do?




Beat her up?


----------



## Stephanie

I don't know if she's been mentioned I didn't go through the whole thread, but this one takes first prize in my book
*Woman They Call Catwoman Plastic Surgery - Image Results*

id=HN.608039091607767430&amp;pid=15.1"&gt;
	

&lt;iid=HN.608033001338307952&amp;pid=15.1"&gt;
	
id=HN.608045435270268328&amp;pid=15.1"&gt;
	
id=HN.608000660244334499&amp;pid=15.1"&gt;
	
id=HN.608042922715971620&amp;pid=15.1"&gt;
	

id=HN.608042033658332569&amp;pid=15.1"&gt;
	
src="https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?;


----------



## Gracie

Joan looked pretty good for 81, plastic surgery or not.


----------



## Gracie

And don't even get me started on Kenny Rogers. he used to be so handsome. Now? Ick. Same with that icky wayne newton.


----------



## Stephanie

Gracie said:


> And don't even get me started on Kenny Rogers. he used to be so handsome. Now? Ick. Same with that icky wayne newton.



I don't know why some come out of face lifts looking good and others..


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were talking about women's views on youth and beauty, not plastic surgery. Yeah, I see your point about the mainstreaming of PS as a means to keep something that is fading or to enhance one's appearance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about both, women and girls.  It's overall unhealthy for both.  Don't you think?
Click to expand...


For girls, I think their parents have steered them wrong, same with friends. For women, well they like the benefits that come with beauty. I think of it like guys getting hairpieces. It gives them a self-confidence boost, helps with women, but they're still chrome domes underneath. People find benefit in fooling themselves.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I don't think that what you describe is nearly as widespread an issue. * This issue with youthfulness and beauty goes beyond Hollywood and seeps into regular society and regular girls*, who then have self esteem issues.  Add onto that, they listen to and admire "artists" such as Nicki Minaj, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Teen girls are incredibly susceptible to this kind of stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's the nature of life. Young girls are hugely attractive. This is the best that they're ever going to look in their entire lives. They're spoiled by all the male attention. They don't want to give that up as they age and see younger women coming up behind them. This isn't something that a campaign can fix - this is human nature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are completely missing the point.  The point is that this encourages unhealthy habits and ideas in young girls.  I read a story about a mom who had her daughter get Botox when she was 8.  The saddest part was that the little girl actually thought she had wrinkles.  How effing sad is that?  I can just imagine the train wreck she's going to be as an adult.
> 
> Mom gives Botox to 8-year-old daughter...Say what - Parents - TODAY.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Britney, she's allegedly fine – even thankful – of her mom's efforts. "My friends think it's cool I have all the treatments and they want to be like me. I check every night for wrinkles, and when I see some I want more injections," the 8-year-old says.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were talking about women's views on youth and beauty, not plastic surgery. Yeah, I see your point about the mainstreaming of PS as a means to keep something that is fading or to enhance one's appearance.
> 
> As for the 8 year old, idiot parents, what can you do?
Click to expand...


I wonder if you realize how many young women are getting cosmetic surgery, from nose jobs to breast implants.  It's all the rage among the rich kids in Hollywood, LA, and other "trendy" cities.  

Teens Getting Breast Implants for Graduation Womens eNews


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were talking about women's views on youth and beauty, not plastic surgery. Yeah, I see your point about the mainstreaming of PS as a means to keep something that is fading or to enhance one's appearance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about both, women and girls.  It's overall unhealthy for both.  Don't you think?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For girls, I think their parents have steered them wrong, same with friends. For women, well they like the benefits that come with beauty. I think of it like guys getting hairpieces. It gives them a self-confidence boost, helps with women, but they're still chrome domes underneath. People find benefit in fooling themselves.
Click to expand...


Fooling themselves?  It's the public who pays these celebrities.  Who's fooling who?


----------



## ChrisL

Gracie said:


> Joan looked pretty good for 81, plastic surgery or not.



Not only that, but she was so spunky and full of energy!!  She was really an unbelievable person.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I don't think that what you describe is nearly as widespread an issue. * This issue with youthfulness and beauty goes beyond Hollywood and seeps into regular society and regular girls*, who then have self esteem issues.  Add onto that, they listen to and admire "artists" such as Nicki Minaj, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Teen girls are incredibly susceptible to this kind of stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's the nature of life. Young girls are hugely attractive. This is the best that they're ever going to look in their entire lives. They're spoiled by all the male attention. They don't want to give that up as they age and see younger women coming up behind them. This isn't something that a campaign can fix - this is human nature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are completely missing the point.  The point is that this encourages unhealthy habits and ideas in young girls.  I read a story about a mom who had her daughter get Botox when she was 8.  The saddest part was that the little girl actually thought she had wrinkles.  How effing sad is that?  I can just imagine the train wreck she's going to be as an adult.
> 
> Mom gives Botox to 8-year-old daughter...Say what - Parents - TODAY.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Britney, she's allegedly fine – even thankful – of her mom's efforts. "My friends think it's cool I have all the treatments and they want to be like me. I check every night for wrinkles, and when I see some I want more injections," the 8-year-old says.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you were talking about women's views on youth and beauty, not plastic surgery. Yeah, I see your point about the mainstreaming of PS as a means to keep something that is fading or to enhance one's appearance.
> 
> As for the 8 year old, idiot parents, what can you do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wonder if you realize how many young women are getting cosmetic surgery, from nose jobs to breast implants.  It's all the rage among the rich kids in Hollywood, LA, and other "trendy" cities.
> 
> Teens Getting Breast Implants for Graduation Womens eNews
Click to expand...


How is this any different than other female fads? Women convincing themselves that they need to have sex with lots of guys or they'll miss out on life, the Sex in the City lifestyle created by a gay man, or that having a career is a must-do for women, etc. Reason can't penetrate whatever is driving this dynamic. These fads all revolve around symbolism, visions of what constitutes a "good life" and they're all informed by a manufactured reality.  Women are very focused on consensus, so when culture determines something women tend to go with the herd.

What I'm worried about is the rise of the "kick-ass babe" phenomenon because I think this could actually hurt women if they think that they can go toe-to-toe with big burly guys.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.



Exactly. She looks bony now, and her mouth is weird and unnatural, like she's had botox injections.

It appears to have taken a toll on her skin as well.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. She looks bony now, and her mouth is weird and unnatural, like she's had botox injections.
> 
> It appears to have taken a toll on her skin as well.
Click to expand...


Age takes a toll on your skin. Find a teenager who lost weight and compare to an old person who lost weight. The old person has flabs of skins hanging around whereas the young teenager's skin snaps back much easier. We lose skin elasticity as we age. Once scientists figure out how to fix that problem, watch out, plastic surgery will have entered into the realm of hyperspace.


----------



## Political Junky

Rikurzhen said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. She looks bony now, and her mouth is weird and unnatural, like she's had botox injections.
> 
> It appears to have taken a toll on her skin as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Age takes a toll on your skin. Find a teenager who lost weight and compare to an old person who lost weight. The old person has flabs of skins hanging around whereas the young teenager's skin snaps back much easier. We lose skin elasticity as we age. Once scientists figure out how to fix that problem, watch out, plastic surgery will have entered into the realm of hyperspace.
Click to expand...

It will improve, but they already do body lifts ... buttocks, bellies, arms, hands...


----------



## Noomi

They do everything lifts, these days.


----------



## Esmeralda

ChrisL said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of them look worse than they would have if they just aged naturally.  Taking care of your body and your skin, using a bit of cosmetics, and for women, coloring the hair until at some point when it looks ridiculous: that's good enough.  Most of those who have done plastic surgery look freakish. IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and some of them are YOUNG when they get their first operation.  There's Megan Fox.  She is still stunningly beautiful, but I think she was prettier before.
Click to expand...

Yes, I can see the difference now. Though I am not familiar with this actress, I can see how she ruined her looks. She looks much, much better in the first picture.


----------



## Esmeralda

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I don't think that what you describe is nearly as widespread an issue. * This issue with youthfulness and beauty goes beyond Hollywood and seeps into regular society and regular girls*, who then have self esteem issues.  Add onto that, they listen to and admire "artists" such as Nicki Minaj, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Teen girls are incredibly susceptible to this kind of stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's the nature of life. Young girls are hugely attractive. This is the best that they're ever going to look in their entire lives. They're spoiled by all the male attention. They don't want to give that up as they age and see younger women coming up behind them. This isn't something that a campaign can fix - this is human nature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are completely missing the point.  The point is that this encourages unhealthy habits and ideas in young girls.  I read a story about a mom who had her daughter get Botox when she was 8.  The saddest part was that the little girl actually thought she had wrinkles.  How effing sad is that?  I can just imagine the train wreck she's going to be as an adult.
> 
> Mom gives Botox to 8-year-old daughter...Say what - Parents - TODAY.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Britney, she's allegedly fine – even thankful – of her mom's efforts. "My friends think it's cool I have all the treatments and they want to be like me. I check every night for wrinkles, and when I see some I want more injections," the 8-year-old says.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Yes, I heard about this at the time.  A clear cut case of child abuse, imo.


----------



## Esmeralda

If she has had surgery, she has a good surgeon.





I think she has probably taken very good care of herself.  In the 'now' picture she is 69.

The best ways to help yourself maintain a good appearance are sunscreen, diet and exercise.  You're going to age anyway, but you can age 'gracefully' if you keep in good health, eat right and exercise, drink lots of water, etc.  Smoking and the sun are the worst things for your skin.


----------



## R.D.

Noomi said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel bad for these people vanity made them go under thee knife and like bad Karma they come out  worse than before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But with Tori Spelling, not even a paper bag over her head could fix that.
Click to expand...

I though she was a cute girl.  She is a beast now


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> Are you a male?  If so, you must know that I'm correct.  Men most certainly judge women based upon their appearances.


Well, there are a lot of homely looking married gals so someone likes them. But you shifted the goal posts, we were discussing professional worth. If you feel the need to attract as many males as you can knock yourself out but at least be honest about what you are doing and why.


----------



## Iceweasel

Noomi said:


> But with Tori Spelling, not even a paper bag over her head could fix that.


She's a two bagger. One for her head and one for yours in case hers falls off.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a male?  If so, you must know that I'm correct.  Men most certainly judge women based upon their appearances.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there are a lot of homely looking married gals so someone likes them. But you shifted the goal posts, we were discussing professional worth. If you feel the need to attract as many males as you can knock yourself out but at least be honest about what you are doing and why.
Click to expand...


What are you talking about?  This thread is about plastic surgery and why women get plastic surgery.  Of course we have to include the celebrities and their reasons for doing it, as well as other people.

I wish there was a way to keep idiots from responding to threads.  An idiot eject button would be wonderful.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> But with Tori Spelling, not even a paper bag over her head could fix that.


She's a two bagger. One for her head and one for yours in case hers falls off.[/QUOTE]

Everyone, here is exhibit A of what I was talking about earlier in the thread.  I'll bet this guy is MUCH uglier than Ms. Spelling ever could be, botched surgery or not.  Yet he feels perfectly fine judging her on her appearance.  As if this dude on the interwebz thinks he is worthy of a "beautiful woman."    To borrow a phrase from Bugs Bunny, What a maroon!


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> Everyone, here is exhibit A of what I was talking about earlier in the thread.  I'll bet this guy is MUCH uglier than Ms. Spelling ever could be, botched surgery or not.  Yet he feels perfectly fine judging her on her appearance.  As if this dude on the interwebz thinks he is worthy of a "beautiful woman."    To borrow a phrase from Bugs Bunny, What a maroon!


The dots are too far apart for you apparently. I judge who I would screw. I didn't judge her worth as a human being. Your problem is that YOU equate sexual desirability as your worth to the population and you blame it on men.


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> What are you talking about?  This thread is about plastic surgery and why women get plastic surgery.  Of course we have to include the celebrities and their reasons for doing it, as well as other people.
> 
> I wish there was a way to keep idiots from responding to threads.  An idiot eject button would be wonderful.


Eject yourself then. Men get plastic surgery too. It really isn't complicated, don't blame me.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone, here is exhibit A of what I was talking about earlier in the thread.  I'll bet this guy is MUCH uglier than Ms. Spelling ever could be, botched surgery or not.  Yet he feels perfectly fine judging her on her appearance.  As if this dude on the interwebz thinks he is worthy of a "beautiful woman."    To borrow a phrase from Bugs Bunny, What a maroon!
> 
> 
> 
> The dots are too far apart for you apparently. I judge who I would screw. I didn't judge her worth as a human being. Your problem is that YOU equate sexual desirability as your worth to the population and you blame it on men.
Click to expand...


Go start your own thread about who you would screw.  We don't want to know.  This thread is about plastic surgery, so if you don't have anything to add to this conversation, then get lost.  

I'm still quite sure that Tori Spelling is WAY out of your league too.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about?  This thread is about plastic surgery and why women get plastic surgery.  Of course we have to include the celebrities and their reasons for doing it, as well as other people.
> 
> I wish there was a way to keep idiots from responding to threads.  An idiot eject button would be wonderful.
> 
> 
> 
> Eject yourself then. Men get plastic surgery too. It really isn't complicated, don't blame me.
Click to expand...


Most regular men are not going out getting plastic surgery.  That is not the case with women where they are put under pressure by men (see your OWN comments above, you totally made MY point) to go under the knife.


----------



## ChrisL

MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are, that goes especially for women who are celebrities when really, unless you're playing the role of a beauty queen, it really shouldn't matter.  I think I would enjoy seeing some regular looking people in the movies sometimes.  I always enjoyed Clint Eastwood westerns, and the people in those movies were not "beautiful" people.  

There are PLENTY of male actors who are not visually attractive.  It only seems to matter for women.


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> Go start your own thread about who you would screw.  We don't want to know.  This thread is about plastic surgery, so if you don't have anything to add to this conversation, then get lost.
> 
> I'm still quite sure that Tori Spelling is WAY out of your league too.


Throwing a hissy fit and ordering people around doesn't make you look smarter. If you can't figure out the relevance of my comments have someone explain it to you or ignore the comments.


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> Most regular men are not going out getting plastic surgery.  That is not the case with women where they are put under pressure by men (see your OWN comments above, you totally made MY point) to go under the knife.


Most regular women don't get plastic surgery either. There is no pressure unless you need to be sexually desirable to as many men as possible. That isn't men putting pressure on you. No one is forcing you to be a sex object but you.


----------



## Iceweasel

ChrisL said:


> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are, that goes especially for women who are celebrities when really, unless you're playing the role of a beauty queen, it really shouldn't matter.  I think I would enjoy seeing some regular looking people in the movies sometimes.  I always enjoyed Clint Eastwood westerns, and the people in those movies were not "beautiful" people.
> 
> There are PLENTY of male actors who are not visually attractive.  It only seems to matter for women.


Wrong. I provided an example, Meryl Streep, who wasn't made up well in the movie I mentioned and isn't known for hot looks but is a big name star. You have a victimhood mentality, blaming everything on men.


----------



## Tresha91203

Stephanie said:


> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times


Joan Rivers looked like an elf, IMO. It was good work, don't get me wrong, but she clearly belonged in a LOTR movie.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go start your own thread about who you would screw.  We don't want to know.  This thread is about plastic surgery, so if you don't have anything to add to this conversation, then get lost.
> 
> I'm still quite sure that Tori Spelling is WAY out of your league too.
> 
> 
> 
> Throwing a hissy fit and ordering people around doesn't make you look smarter. If you can't figure out the relevance of my comments have someone explain it to you or ignore the comments.
Click to expand...


You're comments are simply wrong.  Men are not under the same pressure as women to look beautiful.  Tori Spelling wouldn't give you the time of day.


----------



## ChrisL

Iceweasel said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are, that goes especially for women who are celebrities when really, unless you're playing the role of a beauty queen, it really shouldn't matter.  I think I would enjoy seeing some regular looking people in the movies sometimes.  I always enjoyed Clint Eastwood westerns, and the people in those movies were not "beautiful" people.
> 
> There are PLENTY of male actors who are not visually attractive.  It only seems to matter for women.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. I provided an example, Meryl Streep, who wasn't made up well in the movie I mentioned and isn't known for hot looks but is a big name star. You have a victimhood mentality, blaming everything on men.
Click to expand...


Whoopie!  There's ONE.  I'm not having a "victimhood" mentality.  I'm saying how it is.


----------



## ChrisL

The FACT is that women are not going out getting breast implants for themselves.  That goes for both, celebrities and regular women.  And it certainly isn't other WOMEN who are demanding to see big giant basketball breasts.    WE think that looks ridiculous!


----------



## Esmeralda

ChrisL said:


> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are, that goes especially for women who are celebrities when really, unless you're playing the role of a beauty queen, it really shouldn't matter.  *I think I would enjoy seeing some regular looking people in the movies sometimes*.  I always enjoyed Clint Eastwood westerns, and the people in those movies were not "beautiful" people.
> 
> There are PLENTY of male actors who are not visually attractive.  It only seems to matter for women.


Watch British TV and movies more. They typically have ordinary looking  people, and actresses don't anywhere near as often do plastic surgery as American actresses do.


----------



## Esmeralda

Tresha91203 said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times
> 
> 
> 
> Joan Rivers looked like an elf, IMO. It was good work, don't get me wrong, but she clearly belonged in a LOTR movie.
Click to expand...

What is LOTR?


----------



## Toronado3800

It may be a Hollyweird thing.  I know a few augmented brests in person but no super strange super huge ones...save for this tranny but I do not know how to judge that.  It seems as if internet xxx sites and Hollyweird have a higher percentage of inflated brests and a considerably higher percentwge of over inflated brests.  Even in the bad strip clubs I have not seen the basketballs you see on tv.  Maybe I just dont go on Friday freak night.


----------



## ChrisL

Toronado3800 said:


> It may be a Hollyweird thing.  I know a few augmented brests in person but no super strange super huge ones...save for this tranny but I do not know how to judge that.  It seems as if internet xxx sites and Hollyweird have a higher percentage of inflated brests and a considerably higher percentwge of over inflated brests.  Even in the bad strip clubs I have not seen the basketballs you see on tv.  Maybe I just dont go on Friday freak night.



Right, the ones I posted on that woman were unusually large.    But the celebrities get them, just not as large as those ones!  Breast implants in teens are on the rise.  It's the "in" thing with the rich girls on their 16th or 17th birthdays to get some kind of plastic surgery.  I don't know what kind of parents would allow their underaged daughters to do this.  But like you say, in Hollyweird it wouldn't be surprising if parents encouraged their teenage daughters to get breast implants.  Kim Kardashian's mom thought it was great when Kim made a sex tape.  Go figure.


----------



## ChrisL

Esmeralda said:


> Tresha91203 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times
> 
> 
> 
> Joan Rivers looked like an elf, IMO. It was good work, don't get me wrong, but she clearly belonged in a LOTR movie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is LOTR?
Click to expand...


I was trying to figure that out too!!!  All I could come up with, without cheating and googling it, was "love on the run."  Lol!


----------



## Toronado3800

Lord of the Rings!


----------



## Esmeralda

Toronado3800 said:


> Lord of the Rings!


Oh.  Never read it or watched any of the movies.


----------



## ChrisL

Esmeralda said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lord of the Rings!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh.  Never read it or watched any of the movies.
Click to expand...


Oh, duh!  Of course!  I only saw the first one YEARS ago.  I didn't even think of that!


----------



## Tresha91203

Sorry, yes, Lord of the Rings. She should be the matriarch of the elf clan.


----------



## Tresha91203

I still think it is something in the self that causes it. Those same people tend to want people to focus on their looks so lean towards entertainment. They are looking for approval or self worth from outside, not within. 

I am average, and at times have been quite large. I wear little to no makeup. I've never had trouble with the guys. Men don't have it any better. It is just about the wallet rather than the looks more often than not.

Biologically, men want women who will likely produce healthy, attractive babies, and women want men who are able to provide for them and their children, IMO.


----------



## ChrisL

Tresha91203 said:


> I still think it is something in the self that causes it. Those same people tend to want people to focus on their looks so lean towards entertainment. They are looking for approval or self worth from outside, not within.
> 
> I am average, and at times have been quite large. I wear little to no makeup. I've never had trouble with the guys. Men don't have it any better. It is just about the wallet rather than the looks more often than not.
> 
> Biologically, men want women who will likely produce healthy, attractive babies, and women want men who are able to provide for them and their children, IMO.



I agree with that, and I don't think there is anything wrong with makeup, hair styling and looking your best, but the plastic surgery thing is just getting a bit out of control IMO.  People should realize that they have to learn to love themselves, flaws and all.  

I also agree that there are some underlying issues when a person is willing to go under the knife.  I've seen women with perfectly beautiful breasts talk about having breast implants.  I'm like, why?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with your breasts!!  Huge breasts do not equal nice breasts anyway.  I think the plastic surgery "basketballs" (especially when a woman is thin), look absolutely terrible.  It looks like someone stuck two big balls onto their chests!  And then there's the pain that they have afterwards.  To me, it is just NOT worth it, and I think you must have some issues to want to tolerate all of that and the possibility of complications occurring and perhaps even losing your life, just to have breasts that are a few cup sizes larger.  So stupid!!!


----------



## Tresha91203

@ChrisL 

Yeah, at times I think it would be nice to get a tuck to put everything back in place, but the reward would be minimal and the risk too great. Overall, I am happy with my looks. I think that comes more from age than actual beauty, though.


----------



## ChrisL

Tresha91203 said:


> @ChrisL
> 
> Yeah, at times I think it would be nice to get a tuck to put everything back in place, but the reward would be minimal and the risk too great. Overall, I am happy with my looks. I think that comes more from age than actual beauty, though.



And confidence IS beautiful!  

I can only imagine what it must be like to live with such a person, like a celebrity.  "Do I look fat?"  "Look at my wrinkles!"  "Me, me, me . . . I, I, I."


----------



## Zoom-boing

R.D. said:


> That second woman is Kim Novak.   I was shocked.



Seriously??  Holy shit she looks horrible!


----------



## Zoom-boing

Stephanie said:


> what whiners
> 
> the only one who had good plastic surgery was Joan Rivers
> 
> the rest look liked freaks and clowns at times



Joan Rivers looked like shit.  Her face was a weird, immovable blob.


----------



## R.D.

Tresha91203 said:


> @ChrisL
> 
> Yeah, at times I think it would be nice to get a tuck to put everything back in place, but the reward would be minimal and the risk too great. Overall, I am happy with my looks. I think that comes more from age than actual beauty, though.


I would feel like I cheated.


----------



## Zoom-boing

Plastic surgery rule:  less is more.

Know who this is?  Pam Anderson.  She was freaking adorable in her youth.  Then, the knife.  Blech.







Know who looks fantastic (don't know if she had anything done, I don't think so).  Betty White!






Hope I look this good when I'm 90!


----------



## ChrisL

Zoom-boing said:


> Plastic surgery rule:  less is more.
> 
> Know who this is?  Pam Anderson.  She was freaking adorable in her youth.  Then, the knife.  Blech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Know who looks fantastic (don't know if she had anything done, I don't think so).  Betty White!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope I look this good when I'm 90!



True, but to be fair to some of these celebs.  A lot of the "comparison" pictures are comparing them now to like 20 and 30 years ago.  Of course some aren't going to look nearly as beautiful in their late 40s and 50s as when they were in the 20s and 30s. 

Betty White is an amazing woman and so funny too!

Edit:  Definitely too much makeup and too much hair on Pamela though.  I think you are right and that she would be doing herself a favor to tone it down a bit.  Lol.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

Rikurzhen said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. She looks bony now, and her mouth is weird and unnatural, like she's had botox injections.
> 
> It appears to have taken a toll on her skin as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Age takes a toll on your skin. Find a teenager who lost weight and compare to an old person who lost weight. The old person has flabs of skins hanging around whereas the young teenager's skin snaps back much easier. We lose skin elasticity as we age. Once scientists figure out how to fix that problem, watch out, plastic surgery will have entered into the realm of hyperspace.
Click to expand...


Sure. But, again, however, *she's only 28*.

She looks quite a bit older than her age.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are, that goes especially for women who are celebrities when really, unless you're playing the role of a beauty queen, it really shouldn't matter.  I think I would enjoy seeing some regular looking people in the movies sometimes.  I always enjoyed Clint Eastwood westerns, and the people in those movies were not "beautiful" people.
> 
> There are PLENTY of male actors who are not visually attractive.  It only seems to matter for women.



To be fair, you're not going to see a lot of men like the following in the movies either.






There are also a fair number of female actresses out there that I wouldn't consider to be especially "sexy" (Sissy Spacek, Kathy Bates, Joan Cussak, Queen Latifa, etca).

You also have to keep in mind that a lot of the pressure on women to appear "pristine" all the time comes from other women, not men. Guys will certainly appreciate if a woman looks nice, but we usually won't be anywhere near as judgmental as women tend to be if she doesn't.

We probably won't notice her at all, to be honest. lol


----------



## Capstone

Don't know how to chime in here without coming off like a bit of a fetishist, but I think Meredith Vieira is one of the most beautiful celebrities around today. Bar none.

I think plastic surgery for women is a lot like Shatneresque rugs (or bad hair plugs) for men. 

What's the point, if it looks like crap and everyone knows it's been done?


----------



## Tresha91203

Oh my goodness, so true! If you don't think women are the worst critics, attend a Miss America Pageant gathering. 50 of the prettiest college coeds and this is what you will hear:

"Horse teeth!"
"Who let her pick that dress?"
"Really, that's the best New Jersey has to offer?"
"Couldn't she comb her hair?"
"Those are fake."
"Someone should have told her that makes her look paunchy."



Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are, that goes especially for women who are celebrities when really, unless you're playing the role of a beauty queen, it really shouldn't matter.  I think I would enjoy seeing some regular looking people in the movies sometimes.  I always enjoyed Clint Eastwood westerns, and the people in those movies were not "beautiful" people.
> 
> There are PLENTY of male actors who are not visually attractive.  It only seems to matter for women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, you're not going to see a lot of men like the following in the movies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are also a fair number of female actresses out there that I wouldn't consider to be especially "sexy" (Sissy Spacek, Kathy Bates, Joan Cussak, Queen Latifa, etca).
> 
> You also have to keep in mind that a lot of the pressure on women to appear "pristine" all the time comes from other women, not men. Guys will certainly appreciate if a woman looks nice, but we usually won't be anywhere near as judgmental as women tend to be if she doesn't.
> 
> We probably won't notice her at all, to be honest. lol
Click to expand...


----------



## Tresha91203

I had to look her up because, although the name was familiar, I could not place her. I agree she is beautiful and looks natural. If she had any work done, it was a superb job.

http://www.metro.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/meredith-vieira.jpg

ETA:  a "t" that escaped



Capstone said:


> Don't know how to chime in here without coming off like a bit of a fetishist, but I think Meredith Vieira is one of the most beautiful celebrities around today. Bar none.
> 
> I think plastic surgery for women is a lot like Shatneresque rugs (or bad hair plugs) for men.
> 
> What's the point, if it looks like crap and everyone knows it's been done?


----------



## ChrisL

Tresha91203 said:


> Oh my goodness, so true! If you don't think women are the worst critics, attend a Miss America Pageant gathering. 50 of the prettiest college coeds and this is what you will hear:
> 
> "Horse teeth!"
> "Who let her pick that dress?"
> "Really, that's the best New Jersey has to offer?"
> "Couldn't she comb her hair?"
> "Those are fake."
> "Someone should have told her that makes her look paunchy."



You think that's why women get breast implants and butt implants?


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are, that goes especially for women who are celebrities when really, unless you're playing the role of a beauty queen, it really shouldn't matter.  I think I would enjoy seeing some regular looking people in the movies sometimes.  I always enjoyed Clint Eastwood westerns, and the people in those movies were not "beautiful" people.
> 
> There are PLENTY of male actors who are not visually attractive.  It only seems to matter for women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, you're not going to see a lot of men like the following in the movies either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are also a fair number of female actresses out there that I wouldn't consider to be especially "sexy" (Sissy Spacek, Kathy Bates, Joan Cussak, Queen Latifa, etca).
> 
> You also have to keep in mind that a lot of the pressure on women to appear "pristine" all the time comes from other women, not men. Guys will certainly appreciate if a woman looks nice, but we usually won't be anywhere near as judgmental as women tend to be if she doesn't.
> 
> We probably won't notice her at all, to be honest. lol
Click to expand...


There are not a "fair" number of them.  They are VERY few and far between.  Most Hollywood actresses are beautiful and have nice bodies. 

I don't agree with your assessment at all.  I have heard men make fun of women's appearances MANY times, such as "butterface" as well as ridiculing overweight women, talking about women's breast size or butt size, etc., etc., etc.

In comparison, there are MANY unattractive male actors, even overweight ones.  

Also, just a page or 2 ago, a man was making fun of Tori Spelling's appearance!!!  Saying she was a double bagger.   

And then you guys have the nerve to go and say you like "natural-looking" women.  No you don't.  A lot of you guys would prefer the "caricature" obviously.  Just read some of the threads around here.  What about the "butt religion" thread?


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Tresha91203 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness, so true! If you don't think women are the worst critics, attend a Miss America Pageant gathering. 50 of the prettiest college coeds and this is what you will hear:
> 
> "Horse teeth!"
> "Who let her pick that dress?"
> "Really, that's the best New Jersey has to offer?"
> "Couldn't she comb her hair?"
> "Those are fake."
> "Someone should have told her that makes her look paunchy."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that's why women get breast implants and butt implants?
Click to expand...


By and large, I think women get them to boost their own self-esteem more than anything else.

Sure, some men will go after the "beach ball tits" look. However, it's no where near a majority.


----------



## Capstone

Tresha91203 said:


> I had to look her up because, although the name was familiar, I could not place her. I agree she is beautiful and looks natural. If she had any work done, it was a superb job.



If that's a recent photo, it's been significantly air-brushed. I think she's 60 or 61, and she's got _the patina_ to prove it, so to speak.


----------



## Tresha91203

No, not implants. Women tend to criticize other women with implants while wishing they were shaped differently, themselves. Fat ass used to be negative until around JLo, as far as I recall.

I know very few people in real life with implants, and they were very flat before and did not get huge ones ... around a C I would say. I know no one with butt implants.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tresha91203 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness, so true! If you don't think women are the worst critics, attend a Miss America Pageant gathering. 50 of the prettiest college coeds and this is what you will hear:
> 
> "Horse teeth!"
> "Who let her pick that dress?"
> "Really, that's the best New Jersey has to offer?"
> "Couldn't she comb her hair?"
> "Those are fake."
> "Someone should have told her that makes her look paunchy."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that's why women get breast implants and butt implants?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> By and large, I think women get them to boost their own self-esteem more than anything else.
> 
> Sure, some men will go after the "beach ball tits" look. However, it's no where near a majority.
Click to expand...


That is SUCH bull.  They do it because they know that the men prefer big breasted, big butted women, and that is what the men will pay to see.  It has nothing to do with women IMO.


----------



## ChrisL

Tresha91203 said:


> No, not implants. Women tend to criticize other women with implants while wishing they were shaped differently, themselves. Fat ass used to be negative until around JLo, as far as I recall.
> 
> I know very few people in real life with implants, and they were very flat before and did not get huge ones ... around a C I would say. I know no one with butt implants.



Women celebrities get them.  They get all KINDS of implants that are available now.  There are so many procedures, you can alter your entire body.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> There are not a "fair" number of them.  They are VERY few and far between.  Most Hollywood actresses are beautiful and have nice bodies.



Okay. So how many hideously ugly male actors are there?

Unless they're getting type cast as "average joes," "losers," or monsters all the time, not a lot.



> I don't agree with your assessment at all.  I have heard men make fun of women's appearances MANY times, such as "butterface" as well as ridiculing overweight women, talking about women's breast size or butt size, etc., etc., etc.



We judge based on appearance too. We're simply not quite so meticulous about it as women tend to be.

We don't care what dress, make up, or shoes a woman's wearing. We just care that she looks good in general.

Again, if she doesn't, we're a lot more likely to simply not notice her at all, than to be judgmental about it.

Besides, haven't we had this conversation before, Chris?

You're *always* talking about how picky you are when it comes to women's looks.


----------



## Tresha91203

Capstone said:


> Tresha91203 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had to look her up because, although the name was familiar, I could not place her. I agree she is beautiful and looks natural. If she had any work done, it was a superb job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's a recent photo, it's been significantly air-brushed. I think she's 60 or 61, and she's got _the patina_ to prove it, so to speak.
Click to expand...


I just googled her and picked the pic I liked best. I don't know the date. She always looks good on TV, though!

ETA: Her wiki pic is awful.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are not a "fair" number of them.  They are VERY few and far between.  Most Hollywood actresses are beautiful and have nice bodies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. So how many hideously ugly male actors are there?
> 
> Unless they're getting type cast as "average joes," "losers," or monsters all the time, not a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree with your assessment at all.  I have heard men make fun of women's appearances MANY times, such as "butterface" as well as ridiculing overweight women, talking about women's breast size or butt size, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We judge based on appearance too. We're simply not quite so meticulous about it as women tend to be.
> 
> We don't care what dress, make up, or shoes a woman's wearing. We just care that she looks good in general.
> 
> Again, if she doesn't, we're a lot more likely to simply not notice her at all, than to be judgmental about it.
> 
> Besides, haven't we had this conversation before, Chris?
> 
> You're *always* talking about how picky you are when it comes to women's looks.
Click to expand...


I don't ridicule women who don't have big breasts or big arses, or for being overweight or for being ugly.  Whereas men do this often.  Just read some threads, and there's your proof!  

Here you go.  

IMDb 50 Ugliest male actors - a list by mborikow


----------



## ChrisL

Oh, and I'm QUITE sure that Nicki Minaj does not have butt implants, dress the way she dresses and act the way she acts to impress WOMEN.    Lol.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> That is SUCH bull.  They do it because they know that the men prefer big breasted, big butted women, and that is what the men will pay to see.  It has nothing to do with women IMO.



Frankly, even that's not _necessarily_ true. There are plenty of women in porn these days without implants.

Besides, how many women even have that issue?

Do you think the middle aged soccer mom who gets a boob job has to worry about men "paying" for her? Of course not.

She does it because the surgery makes her feel better about herself. It is also a status symbol showing off her wealth and beauty to all the other women she knows.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is SUCH bull.  They do it because they know that the men prefer big breasted, big butted women, and that is what the men will pay to see.  It has nothing to do with women IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, even that's not _necessarily_ true. There are plenty of women in porn these days without implants.
> 
> Besides, how many women even have that issue?
> 
> Do you think the middle aged soccer mom who gets a boob job has to worry about men "paying" for her? Of course not.
> 
> She does it because the surgery makes her feel better about herself. It is also a status symbol showing off her wealth and beauty to all the other women she knows.
Click to expand...


Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.


----------



## Tresha91203

ChrisL said:


> Tresha91203 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, not implants. Women tend to criticize other women with implants while wishing they were shaped differently, themselves. Fat ass used to be negative until around JLo, as far as I recall.
> 
> I know very few people in real life with implants, and they were very flat before and did not get huge ones ... around a C I would say. I know no one with butt implants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women celebrities get them.  They get all KINDS of implants that are available now.  There are so many procedures, you can alter your entire body.
Click to expand...


I agree. I lean towards "They are celebrities because they are that type," rather than the other way around. That's just because I don't know real people like that, so just an opinion.  It does seem to me that one has to be an amazing actress these days to be natural and still get work consistently. Mediocre barbies get parts all the time.


----------



## ChrisL

More unattractive male actors (some are repeats of course).  These are very successful actors keep in mind.  I mean seriously, anyone who denies that there is a double standard for women and men regarding physical beauty has their heads in the sand.  

25 Successful Actors Who Aren 8217 t Very Attractive


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.



In other words, she's insecure, and trying to cover for it.

The odds are, if her husband doesn't find her attractive anymore, fake tits aren't going to fix the problem.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> I don't ridicule women who don't have big breasts or big arses, or for being overweight or for being ugly.  Whereas men do this often.  Just read some threads, and there's your proof!



Again, Chris, *you* do this often too. You're actually far worse about it than I am in most of our conversations.

What's your point? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






> Here you go.
> 
> IMDb 50 Ugliest male actors - a list by mborikow



Most of these guys are exactly what I said they were; type cast "average joes," "losers," or monsters.

The vast majority of them are not "leading men." Leading men tend to be pretty boys.

Also, not every woman agrees that these men are ugly. Women have a lot more variation in what they find attractive than men do.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, she's insecure, and trying to cover for it.
> 
> The odds are, if her husband doesn't find her attractive anymore, fake tits aren't going to fix the problem.
Click to expand...


Whatever.  Do you think she's getting them so she can play with herself?


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't ridicule women who don't have big breasts or big arses, or for being overweight or for being ugly.  Whereas men do this often.  Just read some threads, and there's your proof!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Chris, *you* do this often too. You're actually far worse about it than I am in most of our conversations.
> 
> What's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go.
> 
> IMDb 50 Ugliest male actors - a list by mborikow
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most of these guys are exactly what I said they were; type cast "average joes," "losers," or monsters.
> 
> The vast majority of them are not "leading men." Leading men tend to be pretty boys.
> 
> Also, not every woman agrees that these men are ugly. Women have a lot more variation in what they find attractive than men do.
Click to expand...


My point is that you said women do this to please themselves and other women but not men, and that is not true, and that men are not judged nearly as harshly based upon looks alone as women are.  Are you seriously denying this?


----------



## Tresha91203

Average or even ugly males get dubbed "character actors" and seem to find work as cops on TV. I'd guess that the sheer numbers of homecoming queens who want to go hollywood play a part in that. The homecoming kings are generally jocks who try to go into pro sports.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't ridicule women who don't have big breasts or big arses, or for being overweight or for being ugly.  Whereas men do this often.  Just read some threads, and there's your proof!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Chris, *you* do this often too. You're actually far worse about it than I am in most of our conversations.
> 
> What's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go.
> 
> IMDb 50 Ugliest male actors - a list by mborikow
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most of these guys are exactly what I said they were; type cast "average joes," "losers," or monsters.
> 
> The vast majority of them are not "leading men." Leading men tend to be pretty boys.
> 
> Also, not every woman agrees that these men are ugly. Women have a lot more variation in what they find attractive than men do.
Click to expand...


Another thing, your comment about these guys being type cast is bogus.  A LOT Of those guys have been the leading men in movies.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> My point is that you said women do this to please themselves and other women but not men, and that is not true, and that men are not judged nearly as harshly based upon looks alone as women are.  Are you seriously denying this?



To be fair, I'd say it's both. Women who get surgery are both insecure with themselves, and think men will find them more attractive after surgery.

Unfortunately, they simply have a mistaken impression of men's desires a lot of the time.



ChrisL said:


> Another thing, your comment about these guys being type cast is bogus.  A LOT Of those guys have been the leading men in movies.



A couple of them are, like Brody.

Again, however, not everyone agrees that he's ugly. Some women find him attractive.

Attraction in women isn't purely, or even primarily, physical, so there's a lot more variation in what they're drawn to.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that you said women do this to please themselves and other women but not men, and that is not true, and that men are not judged nearly as harshly based upon looks alone as women are.  Are you seriously denying this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, I'd say it's both. Women who get surgery are both insecure with themselves, and think men will find them more attractive after surgery.
> 
> Unfortunately, they simply have a mistaken impression of men's desires a lot of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing, your comment about these guys being type cast is bogus.  A LOT Of those guys have been the leading men in movies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A couple of them are, like Brody.
> 
> Again, however, not everyone agrees that he's ugly. Some women find him attractive.
> 
> Attraction in women isn't purely, or even primarily, physical, so there's a lot more variation in what they're drawn to.
Click to expand...


Exactly, and this plays into the double standard.  Men are not judged on their appearances alone, yet women, in a lot if not most cases, are judged strictly on how they appear outwardly.  

And I have to keep going back to what the other poster JUST stated a couple of pages ago, about Tori Spelling being a "double bagger."  Were any women SO crude and judgmental about Tori's appearance?  Not to mention, again, the side by side pictures there are comparing her from when she was a teenager to now, being a woman in her 40s!  And I really didn't think she looked that ugly anyway, either then or now.  She looks like an average-looking woman in both pictures IMO.


----------



## Tresha91203

Aww, some of those "unattractive" actors are beautiful: Aiden Quinn, Richard Harris, Laurence Fishburne, John Hawks, Adrien Brody, etc.

While I don't personally find some attractive, some definitely got in on their looks: Arnold Schwarzenegger,  Rudgard Howard, Christopher Walken, Malcolm McDowell, etc.

I don't look at child actors the same. One never really knows how the kid will eventually look. Same with comedians, IMO. Women comedians like Rosanne Barr and Ellen Degenerous got in the same way. Ellen is one who is better looking as she ages, IMO.

On a side note but sort of related, black women often age very well, continue to work and seem to be able to choose roles more selectively. Angela Bassett is a beauty and a quality actress IMO.


----------



## ChrisL

Tresha91203 said:


> Aww, some of those "unattractive" actors are beautiful: Aiden Quinn, Richard Harris, Laurence Fishburne, John Hawks, Adrien Brody, etc.
> 
> While I don't personally find some attractive, some definitely got in on their looks: Arnold Schwarzenegger,  Rudgard Howard, Christopher Walken, Malcolm McDowell, etc.
> 
> I don't look at child actors the same. One never really knows how the kid will eventually look.



I think it is much easier for women to see past "physical appearances."  Some (a lot actually) men seem to be really stuck on body parts of women, such as boobs and butts.  I don't judge men based upon the size of the bulge I see in their pants!


----------



## Tresha91203

Ha! My crush in high school was Steven Tyler, who most people find ugly.


----------



## ChrisL

Tresha91203 said:


> Ha! My crush in high school was Steven Tyler, who most people find ugly.



I had a crush on a guy in high school who a lot of the other girls found unattractive and they would ask me why I liked him, and it was because he had such an awesome personality.  He was so cool and funny and cute to me!  Lol!  I just liked HIM.


----------



## Tresha91203

Brody is quite attractive!



Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that you said women do this to please themselves and other women but not men, and that is not true, and that men are not judged nearly as harshly based upon looks alone as women are.  Are you seriously denying this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, I'd say it's both. Women who get surgery are both insecure with themselves, and think men will find them more attractive after surgery.
> 
> Unfortunately, they simply have a mistaken impression of men's desires a lot of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing, your comment about these guys being type cast is bogus.  A LOT Of those guys have been the leading men in movies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A couple of them are, like Brody.
> 
> Again, however, not everyone agrees that he's ugly. Some women find him attractive.
> 
> Attraction in women isn't purely, or even primarily, physical, so there's a lot more variation in what they're drawn to.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Exactly, and this plays into the double standard.  Men are not judged on their appearances alone, yet women, in a lot if not most cases, are judged strictly on how they appear outwardly.



Maybe so, but that's just an innate difference between the sexes. Men are more visually stimulated. Women need a bit more than that.

It's not like there's some kind of crazy conspiracy against women here or anything. lol 

It also doesn't change the fact that a lot of women who think they need surgery to be attractive are fooling themselves.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

Tresha91203 said:


> Brody is quite attractive!



See? Exactly. 

My mom likes him too, actually. lol


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, and this plays into the double standard.  Men are not judged on their appearances alone, yet women, in a lot if not most cases, are judged strictly on how they appear outwardly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe so, but that's just an innate difference between the sexes. Men are more visually stimulated. Women need a bit more than that.
> 
> It's not like there's some kind of crazy conspiracy against women here or anything. lol
> 
> It also doesn't change the fact that a lot of women who think they need surgery to be attractive are fooling themselves.
Click to expand...


I never said it was a crazy conspiracy.  I said that women feel pressure to maintain a youthful appearance at any cost due to societal pressures.  Whether those are intentional or unintentional is irrelevant.  That was the whole premise of my thread.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> I never said it was a crazy conspiracy.  I said that women feel pressure to maintain a youthful appearance at any cost due to societal pressures.  Whether those are intentional or unintentional is irrelevant.  That was the whole premise of my thread.



Social standards certainly play into it. I simply wouldn't say that men are the only reason they exist. A lot of contemporary standards for beauty are actually set by women (and, to a smaller extent, gay men). 

If we had our way, you guys would be running around half naked all the time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Where the current "duck face" trend is concerned, I definitely think that's something women invented rather than men.

I have yet to meet a single man who ever found the look attractive.


----------



## Tresha91203

Case in point, Sean Connery. I did not find him attractive in his Bond days, but from Highlander to that researcher in the jungle movie, he was smoldering! Although he is not aging so well these days, I still see him (and hear him) at his (IMO) best.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it was a crazy conspiracy.  I said that women feel pressure to maintain a youthful appearance at any cost due to societal pressures.  Whether those are intentional or unintentional is irrelevant.  That was the whole premise of my thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Social standards certainly play into it. I simply wouldn't say that men are the only reason they exist. A lot of contemporary standards for beauty are actually set by women (and, to a smaller extent, gay men).
> 
> If we had our way, you guys would be running around half naked all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where the current "duck face" trend is concerned, I definitely think that's something women invented rather than men.
> 
> I have yet to meet a single man who ever found the look attractive.
Click to expand...


Yes, I think that started with trying to make their lips look bigger . . . because MEN prefer more fuller lips.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Yes, I think that started with trying to make their lips look bigger . . . because MEN prefer more fuller lips.



Well, yea. It's the result of insecure women working off of what they *think *men will find attractive, and pressuring other women to do the same.

They simply happen to be wrong.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think that started with trying to make their lips look bigger . . . because MEN prefer more fuller lips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yea. It's the result of insecure women working off of what they *think *men will find attractive, and pressuring other women to do the same.
> 
> They simply happen to be wrong.
Click to expand...


Okay, but that's not the case with most cosmetic procedures.  I think that most women don't really care about another woman's arse.  In fact, I think that most women find a bum as large as Niki Minaj's butt to be quite strange looking and unattractive too.  I think she looks just like a caricature.  Like something you would see drawn on an old TV Guide or something!  It's just . . . silly looking!!!


----------



## Tresha91203

I think the lip thing is mostly women. I don't know any man that finds it attractive, except maybe on Angelina Jolie, and only when she is well made up, not that cracked horrible look when she's caught off guard. 

It is a horrible trend I hope dies soon.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Okay, but that's not the case with most cosmetic procedures.  I think that most women don't really care about another woman's arse.  In fact, I think that most women find a bum as large as Niki Minaj's butt to be quite strange looking and unattractive too.  I think she looks just like a caricature.  Like something you would see drawn on an old TV Guide or something!  It's just . . . silly looking!!!



I don't disagree. However, a lot of black guys do like it, apparently. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The only thing I'd say about boob jobs is that they can be a status symbol for a wealthy woman, which might give her bragging rights with her friends.

Apart from that, however, I would say that appearances are a big part of the reason why women get them.


----------



## Tresha91203

I can see how butt implants are a misguided attempt to attract black males. Most women I know are critical of big butts, thus, "Does this make my ass look fat?"


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but that's not the case with most cosmetic procedures.  I think that most women don't really care about another woman's arse.  In fact, I think that most women find a bum as large as Niki Minaj's butt to be quite strange looking and unattractive too.  I think she looks just like a caricature.  Like something you would see drawn on an old TV Guide or something!  It's just . . . silly looking!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree. However, a lot of black guys do like it, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'd say about boob jobs is that they can be a status symbol for a wealthy woman, which might give her bragging rights with her friends.
> 
> Apart from that, however, I would say that appearances are a big part of the reason why women get them.
Click to expand...


That's my point Sgt, Nicki (or Niki, whatever), definitely did not get butt implants for other women's sakes, or to impress them.  

Maybe for a few women, they might get breast implants as a "status" symbol, but I think most of them get them to look more attractive to men, whether it be their husbands or, if they're single, to attract men.  The woman with the size double D cup size is going to get a LOT more attention than the women with an A or a B.  Lol!  MEN are the ones who place such importance on those types of things, IMO.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> That's my point Sgt, Nicki (or Niki, whatever), definitely did not get butt implants for other women's sakes, or to impress them.
> 
> Maybe for a few women, they might get breast implants as a "status" symbol, but I think most of them get them to look more attractive to men, whether it be their husbands or, if they're single, to attract men.  The woman with the size double D cup size is going to get a LOT more attention than the women with an A or a B.  Lol!  MEN are the ones who place such importance on those types of things, IMO.



True. If she's going for giant balloon boobs, that's probably something a woman is doing to attract men.

As with the lips, however, I'd say that's misguided in a lot of cases. Only a minority of men find that kind of thing attractive.

Personally, I actually find it to be a turn off more often than not.


----------



## Tresha91203

I know more women in real life that got reductions than got enhancements. Celebrities are an odd breed with too much money on their hands, lol.

If I had that kind of cash, there are 100 things more important to do with it than tuck and lift. I don't need a man who requires me to defy time and nature to keep him happy. There is always someone better looking, and if that's what he needs to be happy, I'm not going to be his cup of tea.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's my point Sgt, Nicki (or Niki, whatever), definitely did not get butt implants for other women's sakes, or to impress them.
> 
> Maybe for a few women, they might get breast implants as a "status" symbol, but I think most of them get them to look more attractive to men, whether it be their husbands or, if they're single, to attract men.  The woman with the size double D cup size is going to get a LOT more attention than the women with an A or a B.  Lol!  MEN are the ones who place such importance on those types of things, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True. If she's going for giant balloon boobs, that's probably something a woman is doing to attract men.
> 
> As with the lips, however, I'd say that's misguided in a lot of cases. Only a minority of men find that kind of thing attractive.
> 
> Personally, I actually find it to be a turn off more often than not.
Click to expand...


Duck lips are out.  It's "sparrow face" now!  

The Successor to Duck Lips Is Sparrow Face 

But just for laughs, let's reminisce about duck lips too.  Lol!  

FAIL Blog - duck lips - Funny FAIL Pictures and Videos - epic fail photos - Cheezburger


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> *Duck lips are out.  It's "sparrow face" now!  *
> 
> The Successor to Duck Lips Is Sparrow Face
> 
> But just for laughs, let's reminisce about duck lips too.  Lol!
> 
> FAIL Blog - duck lips - Funny FAIL Pictures and Videos - epic fail photos - Cheezburger



That's creepy looking!


----------



## ChrisL

^^^^ From the sparrow face link above, this really cracks me up!!!!    Instructions on how to make a sparrow face!


----------



## Rikurzhen

Sgt_Gath said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. She looks bony now, and her mouth is weird and unnatural, like she's had botox injections.
> 
> It appears to have taken a toll on her skin as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Age takes a toll on your skin. Find a teenager who lost weight and compare to an old person who lost weight. The old person has flabs of skins hanging around whereas the young teenager's skin snaps back much easier. We lose skin elasticity as we age. Once scientists figure out how to fix that problem, watch out, plastic surgery will have entered into the realm of hyperspace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure. But, again, however, *she's only 28*.
> 
> She looks quite a bit older than her age.
Click to expand...


She's not too many years away from hitting the wall. Changes are already happening to her body plus she had two kids, so on top of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy, she cycled through two weight gains/losses.  This changes how the body deals with weight loss and were the fat gets reduced.

Here's how I'm reaching my conclusion. I'm eyeballing the distance between her eye to the "edge" of her cheek in the 2007 and 2014 photos and that distance looks the same to me. Her cheek doesn't look like it's been enhanced. The visual signal of pronouncement comes, IMO, from the hollow underneath her cheek bone.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. She looks bony now, and her mouth is weird and unnatural, like she's had botox injections.
> 
> It appears to have taken a toll on her skin as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Age takes a toll on your skin. Find a teenager who lost weight and compare to an old person who lost weight. The old person has flabs of skins hanging around whereas the young teenager's skin snaps back much easier. We lose skin elasticity as we age. Once scientists figure out how to fix that problem, watch out, plastic surgery will have entered into the realm of hyperspace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure. But, again, however, *she's only 28*.
> 
> She looks quite a bit older than her age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She's not too many years away from hitting the wall. Changes are already happening to her body plus she had two kids, so on top of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy, she cycled through two weight gains/losses.  This changes how the body deals with weight loss and were the fat gets reduced.
> 
> Here's how I'm reaching my conclusion. I'm eyeballing the distance between her eye to the "edge" of her cheek in the 2007 and 2014 photos and that distance looks the same to me. Her cheek doesn't look like it's been enhanced. The visual signal of pronouncement comes, IMO, from the hollow underneath her cheek bone.
Click to expand...


Cheek implants, nose job, lips.  It's quite obvious by looking at the pictures.  Her face is different, and it is not due to aging or having children either.  

Radar Online Megan Fox 8216 Had Some Cosmetic Procedures 8217 Done Says Plastic Surgeon


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Most regular men are not going out getting plastic surgery.  That is not the case with women where* they are put under pressure by men* (see your OWN comments above, you totally made MY point) to go under the knife.



Men aren't putting pressure on women to go under the knife, women are doing that to themselves.  They want male attention and they'll get more of it if they're attractive. It's all the woman's decision. Women have agency in life, they're not under the command of men.



ChrisL said:


> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are . . .



So what? Women aren't judged primarily on their social status like men are. Plenty of professional men will date a waitress but you almost never see a female physician asking the busboy cleaning her table to go out on a date with her.



ChrisL said:


> The FACT is that women are not going out getting breast implants for themselves.  That goes for both, celebrities and regular women.  And it certainly isn't other WOMEN who are demanding to see big giant basketball breasts.    WE think that looks ridiculous!



Sure they are,* they want the benefit *that comes from the implant.



ChrisL said:


> And confidence IS beautiful!



Only a woman would say that. I guarantee you that an ugly confident woman in not as beautiful as a young, pretty and less confident woman.



ChrisL said:


> Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.



Notice how the focus in on how she will be perceived. It's her decision because she wants to alter her life in some fashion.



ChrisL said:


> More unattractive male actors (some are repeats of course).  These are very successful actors keep in mind.  I mean seriously, anyone who denies that there is a double standard for women and men regarding physical beauty has their heads in the sand.



There is no double standard, there are standards which apply to men and those which apply to women. They don't overlap nor should they. There is no inherent hypocrisy involved which is usually implied when the double standard issue is tossed out.

Women get the benefit that comes from their beauty. Men get the benefit that flows from their status. Men judge women by their looks, women judge men by status. You never really see guys trying to date an ugly woman who is driving a Ferrari but you do see plenty of women making a judgment on a man that they just met by looking at his car, or his job, or his social influence/reputation.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Megan definitely had her cheeks and lips done.  She looks like she had cheek implants because her cheek bones are higher now, and her face is much thinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. She looks bony now, and her mouth is weird and unnatural, like she's had botox injections.
> 
> It appears to have taken a toll on her skin as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Age takes a toll on your skin. Find a teenager who lost weight and compare to an old person who lost weight. The old person has flabs of skins hanging around whereas the young teenager's skin snaps back much easier. We lose skin elasticity as we age. Once scientists figure out how to fix that problem, watch out, plastic surgery will have entered into the realm of hyperspace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure. But, again, however, *she's only 28*.
> 
> She looks quite a bit older than her age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She's not too many years away from hitting the wall. Changes are already happening to her body plus she had two kids, so on top of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy, she cycled through two weight gains/losses.  This changes how the body deals with weight loss and were the fat gets reduced.
> 
> Here's how I'm reaching my conclusion. I'm eyeballing the distance between her eye to the "edge" of her cheek in the 2007 and 2014 photos and that distance looks the same to me. Her cheek doesn't look like it's been enhanced. The visual signal of pronouncement comes, IMO, from the hollow underneath her cheek bone.
Click to expand...


Breast implants too apparently.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most regular men are not going out getting plastic surgery.  That is not the case with women where* they are put under pressure by men* (see your OWN comments above, you totally made MY point) to go under the knife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men aren't putting pressure on women to go under the knife, women are doing that to themselves.  They want male attention and they'll get more of it if they're attractive. It's all the woman's decision. Women have agency in life, they're not under the command of men.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are . . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what? Women aren't judged primarily on their social status like men are. Plenty of professional men will date a waitress but you almost never see a female physician asking the busboy cleaning her table to go out on a date with her.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FACT is that women are not going out getting breast implants for themselves.  That goes for both, celebrities and regular women.  And it certainly isn't other WOMEN who are demanding to see big giant basketball breasts.    WE think that looks ridiculous!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they are,* they want the benefit *that comes from the implant.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> And confidence IS beautiful!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only a woman would say that. I guarantee you that an ugly confident woman in not as beautiful as a young, pretty and less confident woman.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Notice how the focus in on how she will be perceived. It's her decision because she wants to alter her life in some fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> More unattractive male actors (some are repeats of course).  These are very successful actors keep in mind.  I mean seriously, anyone who denies that there is a double standard for women and men regarding physical beauty has their heads in the sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is no double standard, there are standards which apply to men and those which apply to women. They don't overlap nor should they. There is no inherent hypocrisy involved which is usually implied when the double standard issue is tossed out.
> 
> Women get the benefit that comes from their beauty. Men get the benefit that flows from their status. Men judge women by their looks, women judge men by status. You never really see guys trying to date an ugly woman who is driving a Ferrari but you do see plenty of women making a judgment on a man that they just met by looking at his car, or his job, or his social influence/reputation.
Click to expand...


The women do all of those because they are taking cues from men.  Period.  End thread.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

Rikurzhen said:


> She's not too many years away from hitting the wall. Changes are already happening to her body plus she had two kids, so on top of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy, she cycled through two weight gains/losses.  This changes how the body deals with weight loss and were the fat gets reduced.
> 
> Here's how I'm reaching my conclusion. I'm eyeballing the distance between her eye to the "edge" of her cheek in the 2007 and 2014 photos and that distance looks the same to me. Her cheek doesn't look like it's been enhanced. The visual signal of pronouncement comes, IMO, from the hollow underneath her cheek bone.



If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.

No one should like that at 28, babies or no.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's not too many years away from hitting the wall. Changes are already happening to her body plus she had two kids, so on top of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy, she cycled through two weight gains/losses.  This changes how the body deals with weight loss and were the fat gets reduced.
> 
> Here's how I'm reaching my conclusion. I'm eyeballing the distance between her eye to the "edge" of her cheek in the 2007 and 2014 photos and that distance looks the same to me. Her cheek doesn't look like it's been enhanced. The visual signal of pronouncement comes, IMO, from the hollow underneath her cheek bone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.
> 
> No one should like that at 28, babies or no.
Click to expand...


Like I said earlier, I'm 36, and my face hasn't changed THAT much.  You cheeks don't deteriorate THAT much at 28 years old!!  I don't know what this guy is arguing so much about the FACT that Megan Fox has had plastic surgery.  It is quite obvious.  He must have a celebrity crush on her!


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.
> 
> No one should like that at 28, babies or no.



I have to say that, although I think she looked better before, she is still a gorgeous woman IMO.  I'll bet if she walked up to you and started flirting with you, you would be speechless!!!


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.
> 
> No one should like that at 28, babies or no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say that, although I think she looked better before, she is still a gorgeous woman IMO.  I'll bet if she walked up to you and started flirting with you, you would be speechless!!!
Click to expand...



To be fair, it's not like she's "ugly" or anything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




She's just a far cry from what she used to be, and she doesn't look like her age.

She used to be absolutely* jaw dropping*. lol


----------



## Genevieve

ChrisL said:


> So . . . what do you think about celebs and plastic surgery?  Do you think they've crossed a line in order to maintain their beauty and youth?  What do you think about the doctors who perform these surgeries.  Some of them will perform multiple surgeries on the same patient, even though there are always risks involved with general anesthesia.
> 
> Does anyone else think that some celebrities who have had plastic surgery look like the Joker?
> 
> Let's compare, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief, if anyone does NOT need plastic surgery, it is Katherine Zeta Jones!!!



No, Katherine Zeta Jones didn't need plastic surgery, but those extensions  in her hair certainly helped.

Celebrities start looking grotesque very quickly with their surgical enhancements. But hey, if they have the money and time and feel the need, maybe all of that will help surgeons be able to fix burn victims better than now  one day, so good can come from it I guess.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.
> 
> No one should like that at 28, babies or no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say that, although I think she looked better before, she is still a gorgeous woman IMO.  I'll bet if she walked up to you and started flirting with you, you would be speechless!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, it's not like she's "ugly" or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's just a far cry from what she used to be, and she doesn't look like her age.
> 
> She used to be absolutely* jaw dropping*. lol
Click to expand...


I think she still is.  Although, IMO, plastic surgery was a mistake, I still think she's gorgeous.  *shrugs*  But that's just my opinion.  Lol!


----------



## ChrisL

Genevieve said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> So . . . what do you think about celebs and plastic surgery?  Do you think they've crossed a line in order to maintain their beauty and youth?  What do you think about the doctors who perform these surgeries.  Some of them will perform multiple surgeries on the same patient, even though there are always risks involved with general anesthesia.
> 
> Does anyone else think that some celebrities who have had plastic surgery look like the Joker?
> 
> Let's compare, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief, if anyone does NOT need plastic surgery, it is Katherine Zeta Jones!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Katherine Zeta Jones didn't need plastic surgery, but those extensions  in her hair certainly helped.
> 
> Celebrities start looking grotesque very quickly with their surgical enhancements. *But hey, if they have the money and time and feel the need, maybe all of that will help surgeons be able to fix burn victims better than now  one day, so good can come from it I guess*.
Click to expand...


Now that's an interesting point that no one has raised yet.  Thanks for that contribution.    Great point!


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's not too many years away from hitting the wall. Changes are already happening to her body plus she had two kids, so on top of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy, she cycled through two weight gains/losses.  This changes how the body deals with weight loss and were the fat gets reduced.
> 
> Here's how I'm reaching my conclusion. I'm eyeballing the distance between her eye to the "edge" of her cheek in the 2007 and 2014 photos and that distance looks the same to me. Her cheek doesn't look like it's been enhanced. The visual signal of pronouncement comes, IMO, from the hollow underneath her cheek bone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.
> 
> No one should like that at 28, babies or no.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said earlier, I'm 36, and my face hasn't changed THAT much.  You cheeks don't deteriorate THAT much at 28 years old!!  I don't know what this guy is arguing so much about the FACT that Megan Fox has had plastic surgery.  It is quite obvious.  He must have a celebrity crush on her!
Click to expand...


I'm not arguing that Megan Fox had no plastic surgery, I'm arguing about one specific example. Boob job, check, nose job, check. I'm not arguing. I just don't see cheek implants. I've seen pronouncement of cheeks on women in my my real life world and I know that they didn't go to a plastic surgeon.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.
> 
> No one should like that at 28, babies or no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say that, although I think she looked better before, she is still a gorgeous woman IMO.  I'll bet if she walked up to you and started flirting with you, you would be speechless!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, it's not like she's "ugly" or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's just a far cry from what she used to be, and she doesn't look like her age.
> 
> She used to be absolutely* jaw dropping*. lol
Click to expand...

 Yeah, she was 21. Being 21 can do that for a woman.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

Rikurzhen said:


> Yeah, she was 21. Being 21 can do that for a woman.



Selma Hayek *still* looks great, and she's almost fifty. lol


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's not too many years away from hitting the wall. Changes are already happening to her body plus she had two kids, so on top of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy, she cycled through two weight gains/losses.  This changes how the body deals with weight loss and were the fat gets reduced.
> 
> Here's how I'm reaching my conclusion. I'm eyeballing the distance between her eye to the "edge" of her cheek in the 2007 and 2014 photos and that distance looks the same to me. Her cheek doesn't look like it's been enhanced. The visual signal of pronouncement comes, IMO, from the hollow underneath her cheek bone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's not plastic surgery, then it's bad genetics.
> 
> No one should like that at 28, babies or no.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said earlier, I'm 36, and my face hasn't changed THAT much.  You cheeks don't deteriorate THAT much at 28 years old!!  I don't know what this guy is arguing so much about the FACT that Megan Fox has had plastic surgery.  It is quite obvious.  He must have a celebrity crush on her!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not arguing that Megan Fox had no plastic surgery, I'm arguing about one specific example. Boob job, check, nose job, check. I'm not arguing. I just don't see cheek implants. I've seen pronouncement of cheeks on women in my my real life world and I know that they didn't go to a plastic surgeon.
Click to expand...


Well, IMO, her face is an entirely different shape than it was just a few years ago.  I could see your point if she was in her 40s or something, but she's too young to have had that much change in the shape of her face.  

Cheek implants don't actually go higher than your natural cheek bones.  They just give the "illusion" of such because they stick out more than your natural cheek bones.  See example below.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most regular men are not going out getting plastic surgery.  That is not the case with women where* they are put under pressure by men* (see your OWN comments above, you totally made MY point) to go under the knife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men aren't putting pressure on women to go under the knife, women are doing that to themselves.  They want male attention and they'll get more of it if they're attractive. It's all the woman's decision. Women have agency in life, they're not under the command of men.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are . . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what? Women aren't judged primarily on their social status like men are. Plenty of professional men will date a waitress but you almost never see a female physician asking the busboy cleaning her table to go out on a date with her.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FACT is that women are not going out getting breast implants for themselves.  That goes for both, celebrities and regular women.  And it certainly isn't other WOMEN who are demanding to see big giant basketball breasts.    WE think that looks ridiculous!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they are,* they want the benefit *that comes from the implant.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> And confidence IS beautiful!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only a woman would say that. I guarantee you that an ugly confident woman in not as beautiful as a young, pretty and less confident woman.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Notice how the focus in on how she will be perceived. It's her decision because she wants to alter her life in some fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> More unattractive male actors (some are repeats of course).  These are very successful actors keep in mind.  I mean seriously, anyone who denies that there is a double standard for women and men regarding physical beauty has their heads in the sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is no double standard, there are standards which apply to men and those which apply to women. They don't overlap nor should they. There is no inherent hypocrisy involved which is usually implied when the double standard issue is tossed out.
> 
> Women get the benefit that comes from their beauty. Men get the benefit that flows from their status. Men judge women by their looks, women judge men by status. You never really see guys trying to date an ugly woman who is driving a Ferrari but you do see plenty of women making a judgment on a man that they just met by looking at his car, or his job, or his social influence/reputation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The women do all of those because they are taking cues from men.  Period.  End thread.
Click to expand...


And men get jobs because they're taking cues from women. Have you ever seen the guys who realize that women see through them. They live in their underwear, play video games all day, smoke dope, and work just enough to meet the minimum it takes to stay alive.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, she was 21. Being 21 can do that for a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selma Hayek *still* looks great, and she's almost fifty. lol
Click to expand...


Absolutely.  There are plenty of older absolutely gorgeous women.  Take myself for example!    Lol!  I'll  be 40 in 4 years, and I am in MUCH better shape than *many *21-year-old girls.  

This guy Riz-whatever is obviously one of those obsessed with youth.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most regular men are not going out getting plastic surgery.  That is not the case with women where* they are put under pressure by men* (see your OWN comments above, you totally made MY point) to go under the knife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men aren't putting pressure on women to go under the knife, women are doing that to themselves.  They want male attention and they'll get more of it if they're attractive. It's all the woman's decision. Women have agency in life, they're not under the command of men.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are . . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what? Women aren't judged primarily on their social status like men are. Plenty of professional men will date a waitress but you almost never see a female physician asking the busboy cleaning her table to go out on a date with her.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FACT is that women are not going out getting breast implants for themselves.  That goes for both, celebrities and regular women.  And it certainly isn't other WOMEN who are demanding to see big giant basketball breasts.    WE think that looks ridiculous!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they are,* they want the benefit *that comes from the implant.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> And confidence IS beautiful!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only a woman would say that. I guarantee you that an ugly confident woman in not as beautiful as a young, pretty and less confident woman.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Notice how the focus in on how she will be perceived. It's her decision because she wants to alter her life in some fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> More unattractive male actors (some are repeats of course).  These are very successful actors keep in mind.  I mean seriously, anyone who denies that there is a double standard for women and men regarding physical beauty has their heads in the sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is no double standard, there are standards which apply to men and those which apply to women. They don't overlap nor should they. There is no inherent hypocrisy involved which is usually implied when the double standard issue is tossed out.
> 
> Women get the benefit that comes from their beauty. Men get the benefit that flows from their status. Men judge women by their looks, women judge men by status. You never really see guys trying to date an ugly woman who is driving a Ferrari but you do see plenty of women making a judgment on a man that they just met by looking at his car, or his job, or his social influence/reputation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The women do all of those because they are taking cues from men.  Period.  End thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And men get jobs because they're taking cues from women. Have you ever seen the guys who realize that women see through them. They live in their underwear, play video games all day, smoke dope, and work just enough to meet the minimum it takes to stay alive.
Click to expand...


No, men get jobs because they are responsible human beings.  If you don't mind my asking, how old are you anyway?  You seem very young.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, she was 21. Being 21 can do that for a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selma Hayek *still* looks great, and she's almost fifty. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  There are plenty of older absolutely gorgeous women.  Take myself for example!    Lol!  I'll  be 40 in 4 years, and I am in MUCH better shape than *many *21-year-old girls.
> 
> This guy Riz-whatever is obviously one of those obsessed with youth.
Click to expand...


Exactly. If she's changed this much in _just_ 5 years, it doesn't exactly bode well for the future. lol

That's why they tell you to check out a girl's mother first before deciding to settle down.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, she was 21. Being 21 can do that for a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selma Hayek *still* looks great, and she's almost fifty. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  There are plenty of older absolutely gorgeous women.  Take myself for example!    Lol!  I'll  be 40 in 4 years, and I am in MUCH better shape than *many *21-year-old girls.
> 
> This guy Riz-whatever is obviously one of those obsessed with youth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly. If she's changed this much in _just_ 5 years, it doesn't exactly bode well for the future. lol
> 
> That's why they tell you to check out a girl's mother first before deciding to settle down.
Click to expand...


Well, that's alright.  He's is totally demonstrating my original point with all of his talk about "youth."  Lol!   

Thank you Rikurzhen, for demonstrating my point.  

PS:  Why do people choose screen names that are SO difficult to remember and spell?


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> No, men get jobs because they are responsible human beings.  If you don't mind my asking, how old are you anyway?  You seem very young.



Eh. I'd actually say that he's got a point on this one.

Most guys put in the effort primarily to get laid. lol

That's actually a large part of the reason why you see so many slackers these days. Guys don't have to work as hard to get it anymore, and many of them have decided to simply not put in the effort at all.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most regular men are not going out getting plastic surgery.  That is not the case with women where* they are put under pressure by men* (see your OWN comments above, you totally made MY point) to go under the knife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men aren't putting pressure on women to go under the knife, women are doing that to themselves.  They want male attention and they'll get more of it if they're attractive. It's all the woman's decision. Women have agency in life, they're not under the command of men.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> MEN are not judged strictly on their appearances, as women are . . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what? Women aren't judged primarily on their social status like men are. Plenty of professional men will date a waitress but you almost never see a female physician asking the busboy cleaning her table to go out on a date with her.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FACT is that women are not going out getting breast implants for themselves.  That goes for both, celebrities and regular women.  And it certainly isn't other WOMEN who are demanding to see big giant basketball breasts.    WE think that looks ridiculous!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they are,* they want the benefit *that comes from the implant.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> And confidence IS beautiful!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only a woman would say that. I guarantee you that an ugly confident woman in not as beautiful as a young, pretty and less confident woman.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not true.  She's doing it because she is aging and she is worried about her husband finding her unattractive and no longer desiring her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Notice how the focus in on how she will be perceived. It's her decision because she wants to alter her life in some fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> More unattractive male actors (some are repeats of course).  These are very successful actors keep in mind.  I mean seriously, anyone who denies that there is a double standard for women and men regarding physical beauty has their heads in the sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is no double standard, there are standards which apply to men and those which apply to women. They don't overlap nor should they. There is no inherent hypocrisy involved which is usually implied when the double standard issue is tossed out.
> 
> Women get the benefit that comes from their beauty. Men get the benefit that flows from their status. Men judge women by their looks, women judge men by status. You never really see guys trying to date an ugly woman who is driving a Ferrari but you do see plenty of women making a judgment on a man that they just met by looking at his car, or his job, or his social influence/reputation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The women do all of those because they are taking cues from men.  Period.  End thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And men get jobs because they're taking cues from women. Have you ever seen the guys who realize that women see through them. They live in their underwear, play video games all day, smoke dope, and work just enough to meet the minimum it takes to stay alive.
Click to expand...


YOU are talking about "boys" above, not "men."  Lol!


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, men get jobs because they are responsible human beings.  If you don't mind my asking, how old are you anyway?  You seem very young.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. I'd actually say that he's got a point on this one.
> 
> Most guys put in the effort primarily to get laid. lol
> 
> That's actually a large part of the reason why you see so many slackers these days. Guys don't have to work as hard to get it anymore, and many of them have decided to simply not put in the effort at all.
Click to expand...


I disagree.  I've known plenty of men who had great work ethics.  My ex-boyfriend was one of them.  He could not STAND to not be working for even a week.  It would drive him crazy.  He was a very motivated individual, and there are plenty of other men out there who are the same.  You two are describing boys, not men.  These are "men" by age alone, but they are not yet mature.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> I disagree.  I've known plenty of men who had great work ethics.  My ex-boyfriend was one of them.  He could not STAND to not be working for even a week.  It would drive him crazy.  He was a very motivated individual, and there are plenty of other men out there who are the same.  You two are describing boys, not men.  These are "men" by age alone, but they are not yet mature.



Okay, but that's what I was talking about in the first place.

The vast majority of men in their younger years (late teens to late twenties/ early thirties) are primarily motivated by sex. In lieu of that, they're more than happy to make due with creature comforts.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  I've known plenty of men who had great work ethics.  My ex-boyfriend was one of them.  He could not STAND to not be working for even a week.  It would drive him crazy.  He was a very motivated individual, and there are plenty of other men out there who are the same.  You two are describing boys, not men.  These are "men" by age alone, but they are not yet mature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but that's what I was talking about in the first place.
> 
> The vast majority of men in their younger years (late teens to late twenties/ early thirties) are primarily motivated by sex. In lieu of that, they're more than happy to make due with creature comforts.
Click to expand...


That's why I prefer older men for the most part.    I think that women preferring a man who has his shit together is completely different scenario than a man who is looking for big boobies, big asses, or "youthful beauty."  Lol!  Apples and oranges, I say!!!


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> That's why I prefer older men for the most part.    I think that women preferring a man who has his shit together is completely different scenario than a man who is looking for big boobies, big asses, or "youthful beauty."  Lol!  Apples and oranges, I say!!!



The point is that both genders have social "roles" they are expected to fill, and tend to be judged harshly if they fail to do so.

Men are expected to be able to work, provide, and compete. Women are expected to be beautiful.

They aren't only negatively judged by the opposite sex for failing to live up to those roles either, but their own gender as well.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I prefer older men for the most part.    I think that women preferring a man who has his shit together is completely different scenario than a man who is looking for big boobies, big asses, or "youthful beauty."  Lol!  Apples and oranges, I say!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is that both genders have social "roles" they are expected to fill, and tend to be judged harshly if they fail to do so.
> 
> Men are expected to be able to work, provide, and compete. Women are expected to be beautiful.
> 
> They aren't negatively judged only by the opposite sex for failing to live up to those roles either, but their own gender as well.
Click to expand...


Mmmm.  I disagree.  I don't really care if another woman is beautiful or not, to be honest.  I will be friends with and talk to another woman regardless of her appearance.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Mmmm.  I disagree.  I don't really care if another woman is beautiful or not, to be honest.  I will be friends with and talk to another woman regardless of her appearance.



And how about a woman who never wore make-up, rarely washed her hair, and wore sweats 24/7?


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmm.  I disagree.  I don't really care if another woman is beautiful or not, to be honest.  I will be friends with and talk to another woman regardless of her appearance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how about a woman who never wore make-up, rarely washed her hair, and wore sweats 24/7?
Click to expand...


I've had friends like that before.  Well, with the exception of the rarely washed hair.  Lol.  I remember when I was in either middle school or high school, I had a friend who was around my height and probably weighed in at about 250 pounds.  She was seriously obese, but her and I were friends for years.  She was a really nice person.  I wished she would lose weight for obvious health reasons, but I never treated her bad because of it.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, she was 21. Being 21 can do that for a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selma Hayek *still* looks great, and she's almost fifty. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  There are plenty of older absolutely gorgeous women.  Take myself for example!    Lol!  I'll  be 40 in 4 years, and I am in MUCH better shape than *many *21-year-old girls.
> 
> This guy Riz-whatever is obviously one of those obsessed with youth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly. If she's changed this much in _just_ 5 years, it doesn't exactly bode well for the future. lol
> 
> That's why they tell you to check out a girl's mother first before deciding to settle down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, that's alright.  He's is totally demonstrating my original point with all of his talk about "youth."  Lol!
> 
> Thank you Rikurzhen, for demonstrating my point.
> 
> PS:  Why do people choose screen names that are SO difficult to remember and spell?
Click to expand...


Think of this, recursion, and it should help you. That's just how us math geeks roll.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, men get jobs because they are responsible human beings.  If you don't mind my asking, how old are you anyway?  You seem very young.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. I'd actually say that he's got a point on this one.
> 
> Most guys put in the effort primarily to get laid. lol
> 
> That's actually a large part of the reason why you see so many slackers these days. Guys don't have to work as hard to get it anymore, and many of them have decided to simply not put in the effort at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I disagree.  I've known plenty of men who had great work ethics.  My ex-boyfriend was one of them.  He could not STAND to not be working for even a week.  It would drive him crazy.  He was a very motivated individual, and there are plenty of other men out there who are the same.  You two are describing boys, not men.  These are "men" by age alone, but they are not yet mature.
Click to expand...


Boyfriend implies girlfriend, you, in the picture. His strategy of having a job worked. Now pick out the loseriest of the losers, a guy who once had a girl smile at him 12 years ago, and is clinging to that memory. There are plenty of men who have checked out of life.

Keep this fact in mind, and think about what it implies. Throughout history, in the era before effective birth control, back tens of thousands of years, throughout history, about 80% of all women who have ever lived have had children but only 40% of men have done the same. Lot's of guys are, evolutionarily speaking, garbage on the side of the road. This entire dynamic affects social behavior in profound ways.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, men get jobs because they are responsible human beings.  If you don't mind my asking, how old are you anyway?  You seem very young.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. I'd actually say that he's got a point on this one.
> 
> Most guys put in the effort primarily to get laid. lol
> 
> That's actually a large part of the reason why you see so many slackers these days. Guys don't have to work as hard to get it anymore, and many of them have decided to simply not put in the effort at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I disagree.  I've known plenty of men who had great work ethics.  My ex-boyfriend was one of them.  He could not STAND to not be working for even a week.  It would drive him crazy.  He was a very motivated individual, and there are plenty of other men out there who are the same.  You two are describing boys, not men.  These are "men" by age alone, but they are not yet mature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Boyfriend implies girlfriend, you, in the picture. His strategy of having a job worked. Now pick out the loseriest of the losers, a guy who once had a girl smile at him 12 years ago, and is clinging to that memory. There are plenty of men who have checked out of life.
> 
> Keep this fact in mind, and think about what it implies. Throughout history, in the era before effective birth control, back tens of thousands of years, throughout history, about 80% of all women who have ever lived have had children but only 40% of men have done the same. Lot's of guys are, evolutionarily speaking, garbage on the side of the road. This entire dynamic affects social behavior in profound ways.
Click to expand...


No, he didn't do that for me.  He did it for himself.  I think that most adult men want to work, and HAVE to work in order to survive.  Sure, some might be happy sitting around playing games all day for a while, but eventually they grow up and want to have a better and more productive life.  Only children who still live at home can afford to not work for a living.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, she was 21. Being 21 can do that for a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selma Hayek *still* looks great, and she's almost fifty. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  There are plenty of older absolutely gorgeous women.  Take myself for example!    Lol!  I'll  be 40 in 4 years, and I am in MUCH better shape than *many *21-year-old girls.
> 
> This guy Riz-whatever is obviously one of those obsessed with youth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly. If she's changed this much in _just_ 5 years, it doesn't exactly bode well for the future. lol
> 
> That's why they tell you to check out a girl's mother first before deciding to settle down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, that's alright.  He's is totally demonstrating my original point with all of his talk about "youth."  Lol!
> 
> Thank you Rikurzhen, for demonstrating my point.
> 
> PS:  Why do people choose screen names that are SO difficult to remember and spell?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Think of this, recursion, and it should help you. That's just how us math geeks roll.
Click to expand...


Math???


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I prefer older men for the most part.    I think that women preferring a man who has his shit together is completely different scenario than a man who is looking for big boobies, big asses, or "youthful beauty."  Lol!  Apples and oranges, I say!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is that both genders have social "roles" they are expected to fill, and tend to be judged harshly if they fail to do so.
> 
> Men are expected to be able to work, provide, and compete. Women are expected to be beautiful.
> 
> They aren't only negatively judged by the opposite sex for failing to live up to those roles either, but their own gender as well.
Click to expand...


Hmmm.  Well riddle me this, why are SO many men married to women who are "less than beautiful?"   

In fact, I'm willing to bet that a LOT of the men who are SO critical about women's appearances are married to some not very attractive women.  Lol!  So . . . what does that mean, when a man's own wife is not a very attractive person, yet he feels okay with being so critical of another female's appearance.  

Seriously, there are plenty of men who do this, and then you see their wives/girlfriends, and you are like . . . ???


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> No, he didn't do that for me.  He did it for himself.  I think that most adult men want to work, and HAVE to work in order to survive.  Sure, some might be happy sitting around playing games all day for a while, but eventually they grow up and want to have a better and more productive life.  Only children who still live at home can afford to not work for a living.



He did it, because he wanted the money, social status, and respect that come with being successful. It simply happens to be the case that, along with all of the above, also come women, because women are naturally drawn to all of those things in men.

It's a survival strategy like any other.



ChrisL said:


> Hmmm.  Well riddle me this, why are SO many men married to women who are "less than beautiful?"
> 
> In fact, I'm willing to bet that a LOT of the men who are SO critical about women's appearances are married to some not very attractive women.  Lol!  So . . . what does that mean, when a man's own wife is not a very attractive person, yet he feels okay with being so critical of another female's appearance.
> 
> Seriously, there are plenty of men who do this, and then you see their wives/girlfriends, and you are like . . . ???



Because most of those guys either aren't successful enough, or aren't attractive enough, to attain high status women, perhaps?

A lot of those women have likely aged poorly as well. They may have once been better looking than they are now.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  I've known plenty of men who had great work ethics.  My ex-boyfriend was one of them.  He could not STAND to not be working for even a week.  It would drive him crazy.  He was a very motivated individual, and there are plenty of other men out there who are the same.  You two are describing boys, not men.  These are "men" by age alone, but they are not yet mature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but that's what I was talking about in the first place.
> 
> The vast majority of men in their younger years (late teens to late twenties/ early thirties) are primarily motivated by sex. In lieu of that, they're more than happy to make due with creature comforts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's why I prefer older men for the most part.   * I think that women preferring a man who has his shit together is completely different* scenario than a man who is looking for big boobies, big asses, or "youthful beauty."  Lol!  Apples and oranges, I say!!!
Click to expand...


Did you ever consider that what you think is wrong? You like older men, implying that he's dating a younger woman, you.  Why isn't he picking a 50 year old woman instead?

You look about you and you see women preferring men who have their shit together but if you're looking around how come you're not seeing men who prefer woman for their youth and beauty? What's been the theme in this thread - female actresses and then all women trying to look more beautiful and youthful because men respond to that.  Now you say it's completely different. That's funny.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he didn't do that for me.  He did it for himself.  I think that most adult men want to work, and HAVE to work in order to survive.  Sure, some might be happy sitting around playing games all day for a while, but eventually they grow up and want to have a better and more productive life.  Only children who still live at home can afford to not work for a living.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He did it, because he wanted the money, social status, and respect that come with being successful. It simply happens to be the case that, along with all of the above, also come women, because women are naturally drawn to all of those things in men.
> 
> It's a survival strategy like any other.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.  Well riddle me this, why are SO many men married to women who are "less than beautiful?"
> 
> In fact, I'm willing to bet that a LOT of the men who are SO critical about women's appearances are married to some not very attractive women.  Lol!  So . . . what does that mean, when a man's own wife is not a very attractive person, yet he feels okay with being so critical of another female's appearance.
> 
> Seriously, there are plenty of men who do this, and then you see their wives/girlfriends, and you are like . . . ???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because most of those guys either aren't successful enough, or aren't attractive enough, to attain high status women, perhaps?
> 
> A lot of those women have likely aged poorly as well. They may have once been better looking than they are now.
Click to expand...


Oh come on! There are plenty of unattractive women, overweight women, etc., who have boyfriends and/or are married.  Let's face it, really attractive people are the minority.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  I've known plenty of men who had great work ethics.  My ex-boyfriend was one of them.  He could not STAND to not be working for even a week.  It would drive him crazy.  He was a very motivated individual, and there are plenty of other men out there who are the same.  You two are describing boys, not men.  These are "men" by age alone, but they are not yet mature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but that's what I was talking about in the first place.
> 
> The vast majority of men in their younger years (late teens to late twenties/ early thirties) are primarily motivated by sex. In lieu of that, they're more than happy to make due with creature comforts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's why I prefer older men for the most part.   * I think that women preferring a man who has his shit together is completely different* scenario than a man who is looking for big boobies, big asses, or "youthful beauty."  Lol!  Apples and oranges, I say!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you ever consider that what you think is wrong? You like older men, implying that he's dating a younger woman, you.  Why isn't he picking a 50 year old woman instead?
> 
> You look about you and you see women preferring men who have their shit together but if you're looking around how come you're not seeing men who prefer woman for their youth and beauty? What's been the theme in this thread - female actresses and then all women trying to look more beautiful and youthful because men respond to that.  Now you say it's completely different. That's funny.
Click to expand...


So now you are implying that the only thing a woman has to offer is looks?  Lol!


----------



## Rikurzhen

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he didn't do that for me.  He did it for himself.  I think that most adult men want to work, and HAVE to work in order to survive.  Sure, some might be happy sitting around playing games all day for a while, but eventually they grow up and want to have a better and more productive life.  Only children who still live at home can afford to not work for a living.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He did it, because he wanted the money, social status, and respect that come with being successful. It simply happens to be the case that, along with all of the above, also come women, because women are naturally drawn to all of those things in men.
> 
> It's a survival strategy like any other.
Click to expand...


If you dig through and analyze scientific achievements, they usually come from young, unmarried men. Creativity and achei


ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he didn't do that for me.  He did it for himself.  I think that most adult men want to work, and HAVE to work in order to survive.  Sure, some might be happy sitting around playing games all day for a while, but eventually they grow up and want to have a better and more productive life.  Only children who still live at home can afford to not work for a living.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He did it, because he wanted the money, social status, and respect that come with being successful. It simply happens to be the case that, along with all of the above, also come women, because women are naturally drawn to all of those things in men.
> 
> It's a survival strategy like any other.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.  Well riddle me this, why are SO many men married to women who are "less than beautiful?"
> 
> In fact, I'm willing to bet that a LOT of the men who are SO critical about women's appearances are married to some not very attractive women.  Lol!  So . . . what does that mean, when a man's own wife is not a very attractive person, yet he feels okay with being so critical of another female's appearance.
> 
> Seriously, there are plenty of men who do this, and then you see their wives/girlfriends, and you are like . . . ???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because most of those guys either aren't successful enough, or aren't attractive enough, to attain high status women, perhaps?
> 
> A lot of those women have likely aged poorly as well. They may have once been better looking than they are now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh come on! There are plenty of unattractive women, overweight women, etc., who have boyfriends and/or are married.  Let's face it, really attractive people are the minority.
Click to expand...


And billionaires, rock stars, pro athletes and hunky movie starts are also in the minority.

Everything is on a scale. There are only so many Justin Beibers for you girls to idolize.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he didn't do that for me.  He did it for himself.  I think that most adult men want to work, and HAVE to work in order to survive.  Sure, some might be happy sitting around playing games all day for a while, but eventually they grow up and want to have a better and more productive life.  Only children who still live at home can afford to not work for a living.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He did it, because he wanted the money, social status, and respect that come with being successful. It simply happens to be the case that, along with all of the above, also come women, because women are naturally drawn to all of those things in men.
> 
> It's a survival strategy like any other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you dig through and analyze scientific achievements, they usually come from young, unmarried men. Creativity and achei
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, he didn't do that for me.  He did it for himself.  I think that most adult men want to work, and HAVE to work in order to survive.  Sure, some might be happy sitting around playing games all day for a while, but eventually they grow up and want to have a better and more productive life.  Only children who still live at home can afford to not work for a living.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He did it, because he wanted the money, social status, and respect that come with being successful. It simply happens to be the case that, along with all of the above, also come women, because women are naturally drawn to all of those things in men.
> 
> It's a survival strategy like any other.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm.  Well riddle me this, why are SO many men married to women who are "less than beautiful?"
> 
> In fact, I'm willing to bet that a LOT of the men who are SO critical about women's appearances are married to some not very attractive women.  Lol!  So . . . what does that mean, when a man's own wife is not a very attractive person, yet he feels okay with being so critical of another female's appearance.
> 
> Seriously, there are plenty of men who do this, and then you see their wives/girlfriends, and you are like . . . ???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because most of those guys either aren't successful enough, or aren't attractive enough, to attain high status women, perhaps?
> 
> A lot of those women have likely aged poorly as well. They may have once been better looking than they are now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh come on! There are plenty of unattractive women, overweight women, etc., who have boyfriends and/or are married.  Let's face it, really attractive people are the minority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And billionaires, rock stars, pro athletes and hunky movie starts are also in the minority.
> 
> Everything is on a scale. There are only so many Justin Beibers for you girls to idolize.
Click to expand...


Justin Bieber!    He is a child!  

Anyways, looks are not the important thing to everyone.  Like you yourself acknowledged, looks will eventually fade with age or whatever, so there are other more important qualities you should look for in a mate.


----------



## ChrisL

Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Oh come on! There are plenty of unattractive women, overweight women, etc., who have boyfriends and/or are married.  Let's face it, really attractive people are the minority.



Generally speaking, you'll find that like attracts like. Attractive people will be with other attractive people, and unattractive people will have partners on roughly the same level as themselves.

The only real exception to this is if an attractive person is sub-par in some other way, and so can only get an unattractive person to be with them, or if an unattractive person is highly successful and can therefore score a partner that is "out of their league."


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh come on! There are plenty of unattractive women, overweight women, etc., who have boyfriends and/or are married.  Let's face it, really attractive people are the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Generally speaking, you'll find that like attracts like. Attractive people will be with other attractive people, and unattractive people will have partners on roughly the same level as themselves.
> 
> The only real exception to this is if an attractive person is sub-par in some other way, and so can only get an unattractive person to be with them, or if an unattractive person is highly successful and can therefore score a partner that is "out of their league."
Click to expand...


That is so untrue.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> That is so untrue.



Based on what, exactly?


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is so untrue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on what, exactly?
Click to expand...


There are plenty of unattractive/attractive couples out there!  Lol!  

Also, you are insinuating that if an attractive person can find something attractive about a person other than physical things, there is something wrong with them!!!    That is completely ridiculous and just shows immaturity.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.



This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.

Here's an in-depth lecture on the topic


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> There are plenty of unattractive/attractive couples out there!  Lol!



Like who?

Outside of ugly rich guys and rock stars dating models, where are you going to see a 2 dating an 8, or even a 6, for that matter? 



> Also, you are insinuating that if an attractive person can find something attractive about a person other than physical things, there is something wrong with them!!!    That is completely ridiculous and just shows immaturity.



You would want to be in a relationship with someone who was unattractive?


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
Click to expand...


Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!  

I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.  

Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are plenty of unattractive/attractive couples out there!  Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like who?
> 
> Outside of ugly rich guys and rock stars dating models, where are you going to see a 2 dating an 8, or even a 6, for that matter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, you are insinuating that if an attractive person can find something attractive about a person other than physical things, there is something wrong with them!!!    That is completely ridiculous and just shows immaturity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You would want to be in a relationship with someone who was unattractive?
Click to expand...


I've seen it plenty of times.  I've had many crushes on men based upon their personalities alone.  Nothing at all to do with their looks, and I would consider myself to be a fairly attractive female.  

Are you insinuating that there is something wrong with me?    That, perhaps, I am "dysfunctional" in some way because I might prefer the guy who I have more in common with than the guy who has a six-pack?


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
Click to expand...


I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with pretty lies that inform how people see themselves.

You missed the video lecture I appended to that comment.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with *pretty lies that inform how people see themselves*.
Click to expand...


Sorry, I can't make any sense out of your last sentence.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> I've seen it plenty of times.  I've had many crushes on men based upon their personalities alone.  Nothing at all to do with their looks, and I would consider myself to be a fairly attractive female.
> 
> Are you insinuating that there is something wrong with me?    That, perhaps, I am "dysfunctional" in some way because I might prefer the guy who I have more in common with than the guy who has a six-pack?



Give us an example of one of these "ugly" men you had crushes on.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen it plenty of times.  I've had many crushes on men based upon their personalities alone.  Nothing at all to do with their looks, and I would consider myself to be a fairly attractive female.
> 
> Are you insinuating that there is something wrong with me?    That, perhaps, I am "dysfunctional" in some way because I might prefer the guy who I have more in common with than the guy who has a six-pack?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Give us an example of one of these "ugly" men you had crushes on.
Click to expand...


Why?  You wouldn't know them, and I'm certainly not giving out names, so I don't know what you expect from this request.  Do you think I'm lying or something?  Well it's the truth.  Okay, maybe "many" was a bit of an exaggeration, but a couple anyway.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with *pretty lies that inform how people see themselves*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't make any sense out of your last sentence.
Click to expand...


Be sure to watch that video lecture I appended to my comment.

That last sentence. People talk themselves into believing things, both about themselves and the world, which are contradicted by how they act and how others act. I prefer to acknowledge how people act rather than affirm what they say.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen it plenty of times.  I've had many crushes on men based upon their personalities alone.  Nothing at all to do with their looks, and I would consider myself to be a fairly attractive female.
> 
> Are you insinuating that there is something wrong with me?    That, perhaps, I am "dysfunctional" in some way because I might prefer the guy who I have more in common with than the guy who has a six-pack?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Give us an example of one of these "ugly" men you had crushes on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why?  You wouldn't know them, and I'm certainly not giving out names, so I don't know what you expect from this request.  Do you think I'm lying or something?  Well it's the truth.  Okay, maybe "many" was a bit of an exaggeration, but a couple anyway.
Click to expand...


 A crush is meaningless. It's beyond meaningless in that the guy doesn't even get his ego flattered, never mind not getting any action or more.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with *pretty lies that inform how people see themselves*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't make any sense out of your last sentence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Be sure to watch that video lecture I appended to my comment.
> 
> That last sentence. People talk themselves into believing things, both about themselves and the world, which are contradicted by how they act and how others act. I prefer to acknowledge how people act rather than affirm what they say.
Click to expand...


TBH, I'm not in the mood to watch a boring video right now, so probably won't watch it.  Lol!  

The last sentence:  It sounds like you are making assumptions about the world based upon your own feelings.  This is what we call "projection."   

So . . . how many "10s" have YOU dated?  Hmmm?


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Why?  You wouldn't know them, and I'm certainly not giving out names, so I don't know what you expect from this request.  Do you think I'm lying or something?  Well it's the truth.  Okay, maybe "many" was a bit of an exaggeration, but a couple anyway.



I highly doubt that he looked anything like this.







Or even this.






Just sayin'...


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen it plenty of times.  I've had many crushes on men based upon their personalities alone.  Nothing at all to do with their looks, and I would consider myself to be a fairly attractive female.
> 
> Are you insinuating that there is something wrong with me?    That, perhaps, I am "dysfunctional" in some way because I might prefer the guy who I have more in common with than the guy who has a six-pack?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Give us an example of one of these "ugly" men you had crushes on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why?  You wouldn't know them, and I'm certainly not giving out names, so I don't know what you expect from this request.  Do you think I'm lying or something?  Well it's the truth.  Okay, maybe "many" was a bit of an exaggeration, but a couple anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A crush is meaningless. It's beyond meaningless in that the guy doesn't even get his ego flattered, never mind not getting any action or more.
Click to expand...


I don't know what you're getting at here, but my point is that attractive people are not always attracted to other people that are the of the same level of attractiveness.  Sorry, but that's just the truth.  

For instance, if I was talking to two different men, and one of them was super attractive but boring as heck, had no sense of humor, etc., I would not be attracted to him at ALL.  

However, if the guy was less than attractive but was interesting, funny, excited me, and piqued my curiosity, I find that to be MUCH more stimulating.  I would definitely choose this guy to go on a date with rather than the attractive boring dude any day.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with *pretty lies that inform how people see themselves*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't make any sense out of your last sentence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Be sure to watch that video lecture I appended to my comment.
> 
> That last sentence. People talk themselves into believing things, both about themselves and the world, which are contradicted by how they act and how others act. I prefer to acknowledge how people act rather than affirm what they say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> TBH, I'm not in the mood to watch a boring video right now, so probably won't watch it.  Lol!
> 
> The last sentence:  It sounds like you are making assumptions about the world based upon your own feelings.  This is what we call "projection."
> 
> So . . . how many "10s" have YOU dated?  Hmmm?
Click to expand...


My feelings are irrelevant. Evidence before my eyes is what counts. Never dated a 10, married an 8 though.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> I don't know what you're getting at here, but my point is that attractive people are not always attracted to other people that are the of the same level of attractiveness.  Sorry, but that's just the truth.
> 
> For instance, if I was talking to two different men, and one of them was super attractive but boring as heck, had no sense of humor, etc., I would not be attracted to him at ALL.
> 
> *However, if the guy was less than attractive but was interesting, funny, excited me, and piqued my curiosity, I find that to be MUCH more stimulating.  I would definitely choose this guy to go on a date with rather than the attractive boring dude any day.*



And if he was overweight, perpetually sweaty, and didn't have a job?


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  You wouldn't know them, and I'm certainly not giving out names, so I don't know what you expect from this request.  Do you think I'm lying or something?  Well it's the truth.  Okay, maybe "many" was a bit of an exaggeration, but a couple anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that he looked anything like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or even this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just sayin'...
Click to expand...


Okay, the guy I had a crush on was NOT a nerd.  He just wasn't attractive.  I'm not very attracted to the "nerd" personality in most instances.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with *pretty lies that inform how people see themselves*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't make any sense out of your last sentence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Be sure to watch that video lecture I appended to my comment.
> 
> That last sentence. People talk themselves into believing things, both about themselves and the world, which are contradicted by how they act and how others act. I prefer to acknowledge how people act rather than affirm what they say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> TBH, I'm not in the mood to watch a boring video right now, so probably won't watch it.  Lol!
> 
> The last sentence:  It sounds like you are making assumptions about the world based upon your own feelings.  This is what we call "projection."
> 
> So . . . how many "10s" have YOU dated?  Hmmm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My feelings are irrelevant. Evidence before my eyes is what counts. Never dated a 10, married an 8 though.
Click to expand...


So . . . when she hits 40, are you going to trade her in for a newer model?


----------



## Tresha91203

Looks are often what initially attracts men, generally speaking. Often, it is initially what attracts women as well. If it is not looks, there's usually some hook: money, status, celebrity, family influence. That's just the hook, though. As we mature, we realize we need much more to sustain the relationship, as neither depends on the other for survival and we are living longer lives. We are still animals and still are wired to mate with one who gives a better chance of healthy, attractive/strong offspring who will be able to provide for and support our children. Survival instinct in us is strong.

These days of less hunting/gathering and more intellectual occupations, just look at how suddenly popular geek guys and gals are becoming! Cave women would want nothing to do with many of our "choice" men these days and would opt to be the second partner to a real cave man.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen it plenty of times.  I've had many crushes on men based upon their personalities alone.  Nothing at all to do with their looks, and I would consider myself to be a fairly attractive female.
> 
> Are you insinuating that there is something wrong with me?    That, perhaps, I am "dysfunctional" in some way because I might prefer the guy who I have more in common with than the guy who has a six-pack?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Give us an example of one of these "ugly" men you had crushes on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why?  You wouldn't know them, and I'm certainly not giving out names, so I don't know what you expect from this request.  Do you think I'm lying or something?  Well it's the truth.  Okay, maybe "many" was a bit of an exaggeration, but a couple anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A crush is meaningless. It's beyond meaningless in that the guy doesn't even get his ego flattered, never mind not getting any action or more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know what you're getting at here, but my point is that attractive people are not always attracted to other people that are the of the same level of attractiveness.  Sorry, but that's just the truth.
> 
> For instance, if I was talking to two different men, and one of them was super attractive but boring as heck, had no sense of humor, etc., I would not be attracted to him at ALL.
> 
> However, if the guy was less than attractive but was interesting, funny, excited me, and piqued my curiosity, I find that to be MUCH more stimulating.  I would definitely choose this guy to go on a date with rather than the attractive boring dude any day.
Click to expand...


What I'm getting at is you keep putting up crushes and now imaginary scenarios rather than recounting your attraction to the fabulous personality of a guy like this, you're not putting any skin in the game. You're convincing yourself of your POV by appealing to events which happen only in your imagination, not you being involved in a 2 year romance with the dude below:


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you're getting at here, but my point is that attractive people are not always attracted to other people that are the of the same level of attractiveness.  Sorry, but that's just the truth.
> 
> For instance, if I was talking to two different men, and one of them was super attractive but boring as heck, had no sense of humor, etc., I would not be attracted to him at ALL.
> 
> *However, if the guy was less than attractive but was interesting, funny, excited me, and piqued my curiosity, I find that to be MUCH more stimulating.  I would definitely choose this guy to go on a date with rather than the attractive boring dude any day.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if he was overweight, perpetually sweaty, and didn't have a job?
Click to expand...


I can deal with overweight.  Lol!  Didn't have a job is something ENTIRELY different.  I would never date a supposed "man" who didn't have a job.  That means he is not a man, but a child.  That means he doesn't have the type of personality that I am interested in.  I'm not into video gaming kids.  That is entirely different Sgt_Gath.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Okay, the guy I had a crush on was NOT a nerd.  He just wasn't attractive.  I'm not very attracted to the "nerd" personality in most instances.



Which means what, exactly? That he was a probably a mid range 6?

He wasn't actually ugly. He just wasn't on precisely your level. That's what I'm getting at.

(Even then, it's worth noting that you didn't actually date the guy.)

Legitimately ugly people tend to not even be on attractive people's radar, most of the time.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, the guy I had a crush on was NOT a nerd.  He just wasn't attractive.  I'm not very attracted to the "nerd" personality in most instances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which means what, exactly? That he was a probably a mid range 6?
> 
> He wasn't actually ugly. He just wasn't on precisely your level. That's what I'm getting at.
> 
> (Even then, you didn't actually date the guy.)
> 
> Legitimately ugly people tend to not even be on attractive people's radar, most of the time.
Click to expand...


We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with *pretty lies that inform how people see themselves*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't make any sense out of your last sentence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Be sure to watch that video lecture I appended to my comment.
> 
> That last sentence. People talk themselves into believing things, both about themselves and the world, which are contradicted by how they act and how others act. I prefer to acknowledge how people act rather than affirm what they say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> TBH, I'm not in the mood to watch a boring video right now, so probably won't watch it.  Lol!
> 
> The last sentence:  It sounds like you are making assumptions about the world based upon your own feelings.  This is what we call "projection."
> 
> So . . . how many "10s" have YOU dated?  Hmmm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My feelings are irrelevant. Evidence before my eyes is what counts. Never dated a 10, married an 8 though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So . . . when she hits 40, are you going to trade her in for a newer model?
Click to expand...


That depends on how strongly I believe in the vows I took, my own market value when I get to that age, how much I value my well being over the well being of my children.

I didn't marry my wife for her looks, but boy oh boy I've never thought that there was any negative associated with her looking so fine. Her looks were also the very first thing I noticed about her and her appearance motivated me to win her over. After I got to know her better her other qualities became important, more important than her appearance.

So the flipside here is that dude who lacks ambition, smokes pot all day, etc that girls completely overlook could be a fabulous caring guy that you would be happy with, but women can't get past his visible attributes, just like guys can't get past that a woman may look like a land whale and thus never get the chance to see her big heart, pleasant personality, pleasing intellect, etc.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> I can deal with overweight.  Lol!  Didn't have a job is something ENTIRELY different.  I would never date a supposed "man" who didn't have a job.  That means he is not a man, but a child.  That means he doesn't have the type of personality that I am interested in.  I'm not into video gaming kids.  That is entirely different Sgt_Gath.



Even assuming this were strictly true (I have my doubts that you would actually become romantically involved with a legitimately 'ugly' person), all this demonstrates is that you are primarily selecting your sexual partners on the basis of their perceived social status. Frankly, that's exactly what we said women were prone to do in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with it, per se. It's what women are *evolved* to do.

All I'm saying is that trying to pretend like it doesn't happen is naive.



ChrisL said:


> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.



Yet, you've never done it...


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, the guy I had a crush on was NOT a nerd.  He just wasn't attractive.  I'm not very attracted to the "nerd" personality in most instances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which means what, exactly? That he was a probably a mid range 6?
> 
> He wasn't actually ugly. He just wasn't on precisely your level. That's what I'm getting at.
> 
> (Even then, you didn't actually date the guy.)
> 
> Legitimately ugly people tend to not even be on attractive people's radar, most of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.
Click to expand...


This is all in your mind, You're not recounting events in your life where you actually put skin in the game. You asked about what I meant by not playing along with people's pretty lies, well this is what I meant. I put more stock in your behavior, or anyone's behaviors, than what they say they would do.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compatibility, having things in common, getting along well and actually liking one another, having chemistry, all more important than looks when it comes to a relationship IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is usually the opinion of older women. They sure don't think like this when they have what the market values. Even if we go deep on the relationship analysis, everything you claim is important falls far down the list when it comes to initial filtering even for those intent on finding a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I've already stated that I'm an "older" woman.  I don't have any problems getting men either, even being an "old" lady.  Lol!
> 
> I disagree.  There are plenty of young smart women out there.  You are just assuming that everyone is the same as what has been your own personal experiences.
> 
> Again, you never answered my question about your age.  It doesn't have to be exact, just an approximate.  I am curious given a lot of your immature views and what seems like disdain for older women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a few years younger than you. I don't have disdain for anyone except liberals. I'm simply not inclined to go along with *pretty lies that inform how people see themselves*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't make any sense out of your last sentence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Be sure to watch that video lecture I appended to my comment.
> 
> That last sentence. People talk themselves into believing things, both about themselves and the world, which are contradicted by how they act and how others act. I prefer to acknowledge how people act rather than affirm what they say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> TBH, I'm not in the mood to watch a boring video right now, so probably won't watch it.  Lol!
> 
> The last sentence:  It sounds like you are making assumptions about the world based upon your own feelings.  This is what we call "projection."
> 
> So . . . how many "10s" have YOU dated?  Hmmm?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My feelings are irrelevant. Evidence before my eyes is what counts. Never dated a 10, married an 8 though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So . . . when she hits 40, are you going to trade her in for a newer model?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That depends on how strongly I believe in the vows I took, my own market value when I get to that age, how much I value my well being over the well being of my children.
> 
> I didn't marry my wife for her looks, but boy oh boy I've never thought that there was any negative associated with her looking so fine. Her looks were also the very first thing I noticed about her and her appearance motivated me to win her over. After I got to know her better her other qualities became important, more important than her appearance.
> 
> So the flipside here is that dude who lacks ambition, smokes pot all day, etc that girls completely overlook could be a fabulous caring guy that you would be happy with, but women can't get past his visible attributes, just like guys can't get past that a woman may look like a land whale and thus never get the chance to see her big heart, pleasant personality, pleasing intellect, etc.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but I said "personality counts."  Lol!  A pot smoking loser isn't what most women have in mind.  That says a LOT about a person's personality, and nobody wants a drug abuser.  Good Lord!  That's just .  What is wrong with you?  I hope you were just kidding about that load of crapola.  Guy has no looks AND a no good personality and qualities??  And you are comparing THAT to a woman who is overweight?  Wow.  That's kind of horrible.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can deal with overweight.  Lol!  Didn't have a job is something ENTIRELY different.  I would never date a supposed "man" who didn't have a job.  That means he is not a man, but a child.  That means he doesn't have the type of personality that I am interested in.  I'm not into video gaming kids.  That is entirely different Sgt_Gath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even assuming this were strictly true (I have my doubts that you would actually become romantically involved with a legitimately 'ugly' person), all this demonstrates is that you are primarily selecting your sexual partners on the basis of their perceived social status. Frankly, that's exactly what we said women were prone to do in the first place.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with it, per se. It's what women are *evolved* to do.
> 
> All I'm saying is that trying to pretend like it doesn't happen is naive.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet, you've never done it...
Click to expand...


Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, the guy I had a crush on was NOT a nerd.  He just wasn't attractive.  I'm not very attracted to the "nerd" personality in most instances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which means what, exactly? That he was a probably a mid range 6?
> 
> He wasn't actually ugly. He just wasn't on precisely your level. That's what I'm getting at.
> 
> (Even then, you didn't actually date the guy.)
> 
> Legitimately ugly people tend to not even be on attractive people's radar, most of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is all in your mind, You're not recounting events in your life where you actually put skin in the game. You asked about what I meant by not playing along with people's pretty lies, well this is what I meant. *I put more stock in your behavior, or anyone's behaviors, than what they say they would do*.
Click to expand...


What?  You don't know me, nor do you know about any of the personal details of my life.  LOL!


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can deal with overweight.  Lol!  Didn't have a job is something ENTIRELY different.  I would never date a supposed "man" who didn't have a job.  That means he is not a man, but a child.  That means he doesn't have the type of personality that I am interested in.  I'm not into video gaming kids.  That is entirely different Sgt_Gath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even assuming this were strictly true (I have my doubts that you would actually become romantically involved with a legitimately 'ugly' person), all this demonstrates is that you are primarily selecting your sexual partners on the basis of their perceived social status. Frankly, that's exactly what we said women were prone to do in the first place.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with it, per se. It's what women are *evolved* to do.
> 
> All I'm saying is that trying to pretend like it doesn't happen is naive.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet, you've never done it...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!
Click to expand...


So you have to go all the way back to your teenage years to find an example of you being attracted to a man who had low status and even here, to a young girl a man who pays attention to her does make the man somewhat more attractive. Young girls have crushes on older men who they wouldn't even look at when they grow up and enter into the real mating market.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can deal with overweight.  Lol!  Didn't have a job is something ENTIRELY different.  I would never date a supposed "man" who didn't have a job.  That means he is not a man, but a child.  That means he doesn't have the type of personality that I am interested in.  I'm not into video gaming kids.  That is entirely different Sgt_Gath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even assuming this were strictly true (I have my doubts that you would actually become romantically involved with a legitimately 'ugly' person), all this demonstrates is that you are primarily selecting your sexual partners on the basis of their perceived social status. Frankly, that's exactly what we said women were prone to do in the first place.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with it, per se. It's what women are *evolved* to do.
> 
> All I'm saying is that trying to pretend like it doesn't happen is naive.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet, you've never done it...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you have to go all the way back to your teenage years to find an example of you being attracted to a man who had low status and even here, to a young girl a man who pays attention to her does make the man somewhat more attractive. Young girls have crushes on older men who they wouldn't even look at when they grow up and enter into the real mating market.
Click to expand...


I already told you.  I would choose the guy who was more interesting over the guy who was better looking, ANY day.  Whether you choose to believe me or not is completely up to you, but that is the truth.  Looks are NOT the most important thing to me.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> I already told you.  I would choose the guy who was more interesting over the guy who was better looking, ANY day.  Whether you choose to believe me or not is completely up to you, but that is the truth.  Looks are NOT the most important thing to me.



You can keep telling me this until the sun burns itself out and I won't believe it because you don't recount any actual experiences of HAVING DONE SO. Don't you find it odd that you believe you would do this but have never actually done so?

Let me approach this another way.  A guy tells me that he would have no problem dating a fat woman who was nice and who was intelligent and pleasant, etc and all I see him dating are skinny women. What value do his words have to me when his actions tell a different story?


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!



So, again, he had social status, and you found that attractive about him, even though his looks weren't up to the level you'd usually go for.

That's exactly how I've been saying this thing works from the very beginning. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





All things being equal, people tend to wind up with people on a similar level of attractiveness to themselves. 7s wind up with 6s, 7s, or, if they're lucky, 8s. 2s wind up with 1s, or other 2s, and, more often, alone.

The only thing that really changes this dynamic, at least where female attraction is concerned, is social status.

A high status (wealthy, powerful, influential, older, etca) 2 or 3 can often attain women who are "out of his league" simply due to how women tend to perceive him.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, again, he had social status, and you found that attractive about him, even though his looks weren't up to the level you'd usually go for.
> 
> That's exactly how I've been saying this thing works from the very beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All things being equal, people tend to wind up with people on a similar level of attractiveness to themselves. 7s wind up with 6s, 7s, or, if they're lucky, 8s. 2s wind up with 1s, or other 2s, and, more often, alone.
> 
> The only thing that really changes this dynamic, at least where female attraction is concerned, is social status.
> 
> A high status (wealthy, powerful, influential, etca) 2 or 3 can often attain women that are far "out of his league" simply due to how women tend to perceive him.
Click to expand...


Why do you think he had any social status?  He was just a typical 20-something year old who hung out with my cousin!    He just had a great personality.  He was outgoing.  He was really funny.  He was cool.  I liked hanging out with him.  

Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you?  And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can deal with overweight.  Lol!  Didn't have a job is something ENTIRELY different.  I would never date a supposed "man" who didn't have a job.  That means he is not a man, but a child.  That means he doesn't have the type of personality that I am interested in.  I'm not into video gaming kids.  That is entirely different Sgt_Gath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even assuming this were strictly true (I have my doubts that you would actually become romantically involved with a legitimately 'ugly' person), all this demonstrates is that you are primarily selecting your sexual partners on the basis of their perceived social status. Frankly, that's exactly what we said women were prone to do in the first place.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with it, per se. It's what women are *evolved* to do.
> 
> All I'm saying is that trying to pretend like it doesn't happen is naive.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet, you've never done it...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you have to go all the way back to your teenage years to find an example of you being attracted to a man who had low status and even here, to a young girl a man who pays attention to her does make the man somewhat more attractive. Young girls have crushes on older men who they wouldn't even look at when they grow up and enter into the real mating market.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I already told you.  I would choose the guy who was more interesting over the guy who was better looking, ANY day.  Whether you choose to believe me or not is completely up to you, but that is the truth.  Looks are NOT the most important thing to me.
Click to expand...


When exactly did we transition to this comparison of men being interesting versus good looking? This isn't a stretch for women. The proper comparison is not to seek out an interesting man but a low status man, a loser, a man that women ignore but a man who is kind and considerate, has a non-threateneing and unexciting personality.

It's men, not women, who are most primed to be attracted to appearance, so you being willing to date an interesting man over an attractive man is the equivalent of me being willing to date an attractive woman over an interesting woman. Yeah, big sacrifice for most guys, right?


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already told you.  I would choose the guy who was more interesting over the guy who was better looking, ANY day.  Whether you choose to believe me or not is completely up to you, but that is the truth.  Looks are NOT the most important thing to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can keep telling me this until the sun burns itself out and I won't believe it because you don't recount any actual experiences of HAVING DONE SO. Don't you find it odd that you believe you would do this but have never actually done so?
> 
> Let me approach this another way.  A guy tells me that he would have no problem dating a fat woman who was nice and who was intelligent and pleasant, etc and all I see him dating are skinny women. What value do his words have to me when his actions tell a different story?
Click to expand...


You have no idea who I have dated or how good looking or not good looking they were though.  Lol!  You are just making assumptions.  

Just the other day I saw a GREAT looking black man with a HUGE, EXTREMELY unattractive white woman, and he was ALL over her, practically fondling her, and that is not the first time I've seen similar things either.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, again, he had social status, and you found that attractive about him, even though his looks weren't up to the level you'd usually go for.
> 
> That's exactly how I've been saying this thing works from the very beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All things being equal, people tend to wind up with people on a similar level of attractiveness to themselves. 7s wind up with 6s, 7s, or, if they're lucky, 8s. 2s wind up with 1s, or other 2s, and, more often, alone.
> 
> The only thing that really changes this dynamic, at least where female attraction is concerned, is social status.
> 
> A high status (wealthy, powerful, influential, etca) 2 or 3 can often attain women that are far "out of his league" simply due to how women tend to perceive him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you think he had any social status?  He was just a typical 20-something year old who hung out with my cousin!    He just had a great personality.  He was outgoing.  He was really funny.  He was cool.  I liked hanging out with him.
> 
> Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you?  And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?
Click to expand...


An older "man" paying attention to a young teenage girl elevates the status of the guy in the girl's mind. Girls are just getting used to be the objects of interest for men, so you hanging out with a "man" and him paying attention to you is like catnip to a cat.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already told you.  I would choose the guy who was more interesting over the guy who was better looking, ANY day.  Whether you choose to believe me or not is completely up to you, but that is the truth.  Looks are NOT the most important thing to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can keep telling me this until the sun burns itself out and I won't believe it because you don't recount any actual experiences of HAVING DONE SO. Don't you find it odd that you believe you would do this but have never actually done so?
> 
> Let me approach this another way.  A guy tells me that he would have no problem dating a fat woman who was nice and who was intelligent and pleasant, etc and all I see him dating are skinny women. What value do his words have to me when his actions tell a different story?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have no idea who I have dated or how good looking or not good looking they were though.  Lol!  You are just making assumptions.
> 
> Just the other day I saw a GREAT looking black man with a HUGE, EXTREMELY unattractive white woman, and he was ALL over her, practically fondling her, and that is not the first time I've seen similar things either.
Click to expand...


I could explain what is going on but now we have to enter the arena of race and interracial dating.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can deal with overweight.  Lol!  Didn't have a job is something ENTIRELY different.  I would never date a supposed "man" who didn't have a job.  That means he is not a man, but a child.  That means he doesn't have the type of personality that I am interested in.  I'm not into video gaming kids.  That is entirely different Sgt_Gath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even assuming this were strictly true (I have my doubts that you would actually become romantically involved with a legitimately 'ugly' person), all this demonstrates is that you are primarily selecting your sexual partners on the basis of their perceived social status. Frankly, that's exactly what we said women were prone to do in the first place.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with it, per se. It's what women are *evolved* to do.
> 
> All I'm saying is that trying to pretend like it doesn't happen is naive.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've had this discussion before Gath.  I've told you that, while I may not approach an unattractive man with the purposes of "starting a relationship," if I liked a guy who was not very attractive but had the personality type that attracts me, then I wouldn't have a problem with dating him, certain extenuating circumstances aside.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet, you've never done it...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you have to go all the way back to your teenage years to find an example of you being attracted to a man who had low status and even here, to a young girl a man who pays attention to her does make the man somewhat more attractive. Young girls have crushes on older men who they wouldn't even look at when they grow up and enter into the real mating market.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I already told you.  I would choose the guy who was more interesting over the guy who was better looking, ANY day.  Whether you choose to believe me or not is completely up to you, but that is the truth.  Looks are NOT the most important thing to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When exactly did we transition to this comparison of men being interesting versus good looking? This isn't a stretch for women. The proper comparison is not to seek out an interesting man but a low status man, a loser, a man that women ignore but a man who is kind and considerate, has a non-threateneing and unexciting personality.
> 
> It's men, not women, who are most primed to be attracted to appearance, so you being willing to date an interesting man over an attractive man is the equivalent of me being willing to date an attractive woman over an interesting woman. Yeah, big sacrifice for most guys, right?
Click to expand...


How is it a transition?  You two are claiming that attractive people will only date other attractive people, and I'm telling you it's not true because it isn't.  No, the guy doesn't have to be a billionaire and no the guy doesn't have to have some kind of "social status."  He can be just a regular guy with a lot going for him in the personality department.  Like I said, I like funny people.  A lot of times, I am highly attracted to people that I find to be humorous, and that is a very important quality to me, a sense of humor, because I like to laugh and be happy.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the guy I had a crush on was QUITE a bit older than me, and he probably would have gone to jail if he dated me.  Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, again, he had social status, and you found that attractive about him, even though his looks weren't up to the level you'd usually go for.
> 
> That's exactly how I've been saying this thing works from the very beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All things being equal, people tend to wind up with people on a similar level of attractiveness to themselves. 7s wind up with 6s, 7s, or, if they're lucky, 8s. 2s wind up with 1s, or other 2s, and, more often, alone.
> 
> The only thing that really changes this dynamic, at least where female attraction is concerned, is social status.
> 
> A high status (wealthy, powerful, influential, etca) 2 or 3 can often attain women that are far "out of his league" simply due to how women tend to perceive him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you think he had any social status?  He was just a typical 20-something year old who hung out with my cousin!    He just had a great personality.  He was outgoing.  He was really funny.  He was cool.  I liked hanging out with him.
> 
> Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you?  And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> An older "man" paying attention to a young teenage girl elevates the status of the guy in the girl's mind. Girls are just getting used to be the objects of interest for men, so you hanging out with a "man" and him paying attention to you is like catnip to a cat.
Click to expand...


But the thing is that he didn't really pay that much attention to me.  He was my cousin's friend who I had a crush on because I thought he was funny and a great guy.  That's all.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Why do you think he had any social status?  He was just a typical 20-something year old who hung out with my cousin!    He just had a great personality.  He was outgoing.  He was really funny.  He was cool.  I liked hanging out with him.
> 
> Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you?  And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?



First off, age *is* a form of social status among teenagers.

Besides which, I'm guessing that he probably had a job, a car, and numerous other things that a teenage girl would find desirable as well, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I'm not saying that *you* have an ulterior motive here, Chris. What I'm saying is that your brain, and your instincts, do, regardless of whether you're actively aware of that fact or not.

It's simply the way women are wired. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Men go after pure physical attractiveness. Women go after physical attractiveness *and* features which indicate that a man will be a reliable mate, like social status and a stable personality.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you? * And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?*



Because what you feel doesn't matter to anyone but yourself, what matters in a conversation is what you have done. People suffer under delusions all the damn time, they believe pretty little lies.

All you've been sharing with the two men who've been talking with you in this thread are your feelings about what you would do, not one instance of what you have done, even if you actually made it up, it would still be something that was done. That would blunt my criticism - a made up story about how you had a 2 year love affair with a loser coworker that everyone overlooked but with time you got to know him and discovered that he was a prince in the body of a frog.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Just the other day I saw a GREAT looking black man with a HUGE, EXTREMELY unattractive white woman, and he was ALL over her, practically fondling her, and that is not the first time I've seen similar things either.



Blacks have different standards of beauty than whites do. He probably thought she was just fine.

Besides which, dating a white woman is considered to be a sign of social status for a lot of black men. This makes them more likely to compromise on their standards to be with one even if they are unattractive.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you? * And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because what you feel doesn't matter to anyone but yourself, what matters in a conversation is what you have done. People suffer under delusions all the damn time, they believe pretty little lies.
> 
> All you've been sharing with the two men who've been talking with you in this thread are your feelings about what you would do, not one instance of what you have done, even if you actually made it up, it would still be something that was done. That would blunt my criticism - *a made up story about how you had a 2 year love affair with a loser coworker that everyone overlooked but with time you got to know him and discovered that he was a prince in the body of a frog*.
Click to expand...


But I said he had to have a "good" personality.  Losers do not qualify.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think he had any social status?  He was just a typical 20-something year old who hung out with my cousin!    He just had a great personality.  He was outgoing.  He was really funny.  He was cool.  I liked hanging out with him.
> 
> Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you?  And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First off, age *is* a form of social status among teenagers.
> 
> Besides which, I'm guessing that he probably had a job, a car, and numerous other things that a teenage girl would find desirable as well, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that *you* have an ulterior motive here, Chris. What I'm saying is that your brain, and your instincts, do, regardless of whether you're actively aware of that fact or not.
> 
> It's simply the way women are wired.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men go after pure physical attractiveness. Women go after physical attractiveness *and* features which indicate that a man will be a reliable mate, like social status and a stable personality.
Click to expand...


Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just the other day I saw a GREAT looking black man with a HUGE, EXTREMELY unattractive white woman, and he was ALL over her, practically fondling her, and that is not the first time I've seen similar things either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blacks have different standards of beauty than whites do. He probably thought she was just fine.
> 
> Besides which, dating a white woman is considered to be a sign of social status for a lot of black men. This makes them more likely to compromise on their standards to be with one even if they are unattractive.
Click to expand...


Well, he seemed to be PRETTY into her and turned on by her, I must say!    I probably would have been embarrassed at such a public display, TBH.  Lol!


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.



Eh. It's impossible to say one way or another just from what you've given us here. I'm simply giving the general rule.

Men tend to be attracted to certain features in women, and women tend to be attracted to certain features men. There are evolutionary reasons for both.

Physical attractiveness in women is a sign of high fertility and good genes.

Physical attractiveness in men is a sign of the same. However, women *also *look at personality. There is a reason for that as well.

A good sense of humor (one of women's biggest turn-ons), for instance, is a sign of high intelligence in a man, and therefore good genes.

Confidence and a strong work ethic is a sign that a man will be a good protector and provider.

Frankly, even then, it has been both my experience, and shown in numerous studies, that women tend to be more receptive to the charms of a "good personality" when it is coming from an attractive, or high status man.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. It's impossible to say one way or another simply from what you've given us here. I'm simply giving the general rule.
> 
> Men tend to be attracted to certain features in women, and women tend to be attracted to certain features men. There are evolutionary reasons for both.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in women is a sign of high fertility and good genes.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in men is a sign of the same. However, women *also *look at personality. There is a reason for that as well.
> 
> A good sense of humor (one of women's biggest turn-ons), for instance, is a sign of high intelligence in a man, and therefore good genes.
> 
> Confidence and a strong work ethic is a sign that a man will be a good protector and provider.
> 
> Frankly, even then, it has been both my experience, and shown in numerous studies, that women tend to be more receptive to the charms of a "good personality" when it is coming from an attractive, or high status man.
Click to expand...


Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?  

I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!!  Lol!


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does there always have to be an "ulterior motive" with you? * And why are you trying SO hard to discount the way I tell you I feel?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because what you feel doesn't matter to anyone but yourself, what matters in a conversation is what you have done. People suffer under delusions all the damn time, they believe pretty little lies.
> 
> All you've been sharing with the two men who've been talking with you in this thread are your feelings about what you would do, not one instance of what you have done, even if you actually made it up, it would still be something that was done. That would blunt my criticism - a made up story about how you had a 2 year love affair with a loser coworker that everyone overlooked but with time you got to know him and discovered that he was a prince in the body of a frog.
Click to expand...


Hey, if I could have dated the guy I was referring to, I would have!  HE wouldn't date me because I was too young and I was his best friend's little cousin!  I was only like 15 years old.  

It's the same phenomenon with some popular male actors.  They might not necessarily be good looking in the classical sort of way, but there is just something about them that a lot of women might find attractive.


----------



## Sgt_Gath

ChrisL said:


> Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?
> 
> I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  *I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!! * Lol!



That just means you're sane and have a brain in your head.


----------



## ChrisL

Sgt_Gath said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?
> 
> I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!!  Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That just means you're sane and have a brain in your head.
Click to expand...


Well, most of the time anyways.    Lol!


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. It's impossible to say one way or another simply from what you've given us here. I'm simply giving the general rule.
> 
> Men tend to be attracted to certain features in women, and women tend to be attracted to certain features men. There are evolutionary reasons for both.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in women is a sign of high fertility and good genes.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in men is a sign of the same. However, women *also *look at personality. There is a reason for that as well.
> 
> A good sense of humor (one of women's biggest turn-ons), for instance, is a sign of high intelligence in a man, and therefore good genes.
> 
> Confidence and a strong work ethic is a sign that a man will be a good protector and provider.
> 
> Frankly, even then, it has been both my experience, and shown in numerous studies, that women tend to be more receptive to the charms of a "good personality" when it is coming from an attractive, or high status man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?
> 
> I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!!  Lol!
Click to expand...




Can't you see it? Look at who you DATED and look at who you TALK about dating. The kind of guy that you talk about dating is finding no solace in the fact that you're willing to date him, but are not because you're too busy dating the guys who don't have a personality. Meanwhile that guy who you dated and who didn't have a personality got the benefit of a date with you and will have to console himself with the fact that you TALK about him not being the right guy for you.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. It's impossible to say one way or another simply from what you've given us here. I'm simply giving the general rule.
> 
> Men tend to be attracted to certain features in women, and women tend to be attracted to certain features men. There are evolutionary reasons for both.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in women is a sign of high fertility and good genes.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in men is a sign of the same. However, women *also *look at personality. There is a reason for that as well.
> 
> A good sense of humor (one of women's biggest turn-ons), for instance, is a sign of high intelligence in a man, and therefore good genes.
> 
> Confidence and a strong work ethic is a sign that a man will be a good protector and provider.
> 
> Frankly, even then, it has been both my experience, and shown in numerous studies, that women tend to be more receptive to the charms of a "good personality" when it is coming from an attractive, or high status man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?
> 
> I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!!  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you see it? Look at who you DATED and look at who you TALK about dating. The kind of guy that you talk about dating is finding no solace in the fact that you're willing to date him, but are not because you're too busy dating the guys who don't have a personality. Meanwhile that guy who you dated and who didn't have a personality got the benefit of a date with you and will have to console himself with the fact that you TALK about him not being the right guy for you.
Click to expand...


Oh, just because I HAVE dated good-looking men does not mean I wouldn't date one who wasn't great looking.  Of course, I have my limitations.    There DOES have to be chemistry there too.  I'm sure I probably would not find a 500-pound man sexually appealing, or an 80-year-old man.

Edit:  I probably should have said "standards" instead of limitations.  That's a better fit I think.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. It's impossible to say one way or another simply from what you've given us here. I'm simply giving the general rule.
> 
> Men tend to be attracted to certain features in women, and women tend to be attracted to certain features men. There are evolutionary reasons for both.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in women is a sign of high fertility and good genes.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in men is a sign of the same. However, women *also *look at personality. There is a reason for that as well.
> 
> A good sense of humor (one of women's biggest turn-ons), for instance, is a sign of high intelligence in a man, and therefore good genes.
> 
> Confidence and a strong work ethic is a sign that a man will be a good protector and provider.
> 
> Frankly, even then, it has been both my experience, and shown in numerous studies, that women tend to be more receptive to the charms of a "good personality" when it is coming from an attractive, or high status man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?
> 
> I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!!  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you see it? Look at who you DATED and look at who you TALK about dating. The kind of guy that you talk about dating is finding no solace in the fact that you're willing to date him, but are not because you're too busy dating the guys who don't have a personality. Meanwhile that guy who you dated and who didn't have a personality got the benefit of a date with you and will have to console himself with the fact that you TALK about him not being the right guy for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, just because I HAVE dated good-looking men* does not mean I wouldn't date one who wasn't great looking. * Of course, I have my limitations.    There DOES have to be chemistry there too.  I'm sure I probably would not find a 500-pound man sexually appealing, or an 80-year-old man.
Click to expand...


You're still doing it  You try to counter my comment by appealing to a future imaginary date. Even if you have to make up a story, why not "recount" when you DID date a kind hearted hobo for 6 months because he had interesting stories to recount and you found him utterly fascinating.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. It's impossible to say one way or another simply from what you've given us here. I'm simply giving the general rule.
> 
> Men tend to be attracted to certain features in women, and women tend to be attracted to certain features men. There are evolutionary reasons for both.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in women is a sign of high fertility and good genes.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in men is a sign of the same. However, women *also *look at personality. There is a reason for that as well.
> 
> A good sense of humor (one of women's biggest turn-ons), for instance, is a sign of high intelligence in a man, and therefore good genes.
> 
> Confidence and a strong work ethic is a sign that a man will be a good protector and provider.
> 
> Frankly, even then, it has been both my experience, and shown in numerous studies, that women tend to be more receptive to the charms of a "good personality" when it is coming from an attractive, or high status man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?
> 
> I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!!  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you see it? Look at who you DATED and look at who you TALK about dating. The kind of guy that you talk about dating is finding no solace in the fact that you're willing to date him, but are not because you're too busy dating the guys who don't have a personality. Meanwhile that guy who you dated and who didn't have a personality got the benefit of a date with you and will have to console himself with the fact that you TALK about him not being the right guy for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, just because I HAVE dated good-looking men* does not mean I wouldn't date one who wasn't great looking. * Of course, I have my limitations.    There DOES have to be chemistry there too.  I'm sure I probably would not find a 500-pound man sexually appealing, or an 80-year-old man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're still doing it  You try to counter my comment by appealing to a future imaginary date. Even if you have to make up a story, why not "recount" when you DID date a kind hearted hobo for 6 months because he had interesting stories to recount and you found him utterly fascinating.
Click to expand...


Hobo!?  Hey, I said I have standards!  I said he doesn't have to be great looking or rich.  I said nothing about dating hobos.    Yes, he has to have a job.  I'm not going to support some slouch.  I want to date a grownup, not a kid.  No, I probably wouldn't date a guy who had a big tumor growing out of the side of his face or something.  Realistically though, I would date an average or below average-looking guy if he had a good personality and I felt an attraction towards him.  Plenty of women do.  I don't know why it's so hard to believe.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt_Gath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I feel that I liked him because of his personality.  I knew plenty of my cousins other friends, some who were attractive, some who weren't, some had jobs, some didn't, etc., and I didn't have a crush on any of them.    There was something that I found _irresistible _about THIS particular guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. It's impossible to say one way or another simply from what you've given us here. I'm simply giving the general rule.
> 
> Men tend to be attracted to certain features in women, and women tend to be attracted to certain features men. There are evolutionary reasons for both.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in women is a sign of high fertility and good genes.
> 
> Physical attractiveness in men is a sign of the same. However, women *also *look at personality. There is a reason for that as well.
> 
> A good sense of humor (one of women's biggest turn-ons), for instance, is a sign of high intelligence in a man, and therefore good genes.
> 
> Confidence and a strong work ethic is a sign that a man will be a good protector and provider.
> 
> Frankly, even then, it has been both my experience, and shown in numerous studies, that women tend to be more receptive to the charms of a "good personality" when it is coming from an attractive, or high status man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sometimes good looking guys (really good looking guys) don't really have much of a personality, sad to say.  Lol.  I dated a guy who was absolutely gorgeous once (from head to toe, a beautiful specimen of man), but what a bore he was!  There was just nothing there for me, you know?
> 
> I dated another guy who was a body builder, and he was a completely conceited jackass.  I'm just not attracted to those kinds of guys, good looking or not.  I'm also not into men who are in the mirror more than I am!!!  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you see it? Look at who you DATED and look at who you TALK about dating. The kind of guy that you talk about dating is finding no solace in the fact that you're willing to date him, but are not because you're too busy dating the guys who don't have a personality. Meanwhile that guy who you dated and who didn't have a personality got the benefit of a date with you and will have to console himself with the fact that you TALK about him not being the right guy for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, just because I HAVE dated good-looking men* does not mean I wouldn't date one who wasn't great looking. * Of course, I have my limitations.    There DOES have to be chemistry there too.  I'm sure I probably would not find a 500-pound man sexually appealing, or an 80-year-old man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're still doing it  You try to counter my comment by appealing to a future imaginary date. Even if you have to make up a story, why not "recount" when you DID date a kind hearted hobo for 6 months because he had interesting stories to recount and you found him utterly fascinating.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hobo!?  Hey, I said I have standards!  I said he doesn't have to be great looking or rich.  I said nothing about dating hobos.    Yes, he has to have a job.  I'm not going to support some slouch.  I want to date a grownup, not a kid.  No, I probably wouldn't date a guy who had a big tumor growing out of the side of his face or something.  Realistically though,* I would date an average or below average-looking guy* if he had a good personality and I felt an attraction towards him.  Plenty of women do.  I don't know why it's so hard to believe.
Click to expand...


Can't you even lie about this so we can put this topic to bed?   Just make up a story about you "ACTUALLY" having dated a below average looking man who was a cashier at McDonalds because his witty banter while he was getting your Big Mac just melted you at your knees and made you forget about that doctor you were dating. Just make up a story about that wild 9 1/2 week romance you had with him. Anything but your assurances that you WOULD date an interesting, but low status, man if somehow such a man crossed your path. I'm pretty damn confident that such men have crossed your path thousands of times but they're invisible to most women.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> Can't you even lie about this so we can put this topic to bed?   Just make up a story about you "ACTUALLY" having dated a below average looking man who was a cashier at McDonalds because his witty banter while he was getting your Big Mac just melted you at your knees and made you forget about that doctor you were dating. Just make up a story about that wild 9 1/2 week romance you had with him. Anything but your assurances that you WOULD date an interesting, but low status, man if somehow such a man crossed your path. I'm pretty damn confident that such men have crossed your path thousands of times but they're invisible to most women.



You don't have to believe me.  That's fine.  Yes, true, there are many men I and other women pass by and don't speak to, of course.  Lol!  That's not because they aren't good-looking though, it's because we don't know them.  

And I never said anything about "low status" men.  I said they don't have to be RICH.    There is a difference there.  My ex-boyfriend who I loved and adored and had a LTR with (we actually lived together for a time) was a construction worker.  That's pretty "low status" I suppose.


----------



## mayrj

I think generally most women go under AFTER having babies just to get their youthful boobs back


----------



## ChrisL

mayrj said:


> I think generally most women go under AFTER having babies just to get their youthful boobs back



For who?  For themselves or so that men will find them more attractive?  

This is what I mean, women are under constant pressure to look "perfect."


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> mayrj said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think generally most women go under AFTER having babies just to get their youthful boobs back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For who?  For themselves or so that men will find them more attractive?
> 
> This is what I mean, women are under constant pressure to look "perfect."
Click to expand...


Every see women who've had gastric surgery change their personality as a result? Many see an improvement in their self-esteem. Their husbands find them more desirable. 

For women, more so than men, appearance is linked to self-esteem.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mayrj said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think generally most women go under AFTER having babies just to get their youthful boobs back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For who?  For themselves or so that men will find them more attractive?
> 
> This is what I mean, women are under constant pressure to look "perfect."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every see women who've had gastric surgery change their personality as a result? Many see an improvement in their self-esteem. T*heir husbands find them more desirable. *
> 
> For women, more so than men, appearance is linked to self-esteem.
Click to expand...


Yup, this is what I've been saying.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mayrj said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think generally most women go under AFTER having babies just to get their youthful boobs back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For who?  For themselves or so that men will find them more attractive?
> 
> This is what I mean, women are under constant pressure to look "perfect."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every see women who've had gastric surgery change their personality as a result? Many see an improvement in their self-esteem. T*heir husbands find them more desirable. *
> 
> For women, more so than men, appearance is linked to self-esteem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup, this is what I've been saying.
Click to expand...


Women need to come to terms with who they are.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mayrj said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think generally most women go under AFTER having babies just to get their youthful boobs back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For who?  For themselves or so that men will find them more attractive?
> 
> This is what I mean, women are under constant pressure to look "perfect."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every see women who've had gastric surgery change their personality as a result? Many see an improvement in their self-esteem. T*heir husbands find them more desirable. *
> 
> For women, more so than men, appearance is linked to self-esteem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup, this is what I've been saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Women need to come to terms with who they are.
Click to expand...


You mean some women and some men need to.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mayrj said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think generally most women go under AFTER having babies just to get their youthful boobs back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For who?  For themselves or so that men will find them more attractive?
> 
> This is what I mean, women are under constant pressure to look "perfect."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every see women who've had gastric surgery change their personality as a result? Many see an improvement in their self-esteem. T*heir husbands find them more desirable. *
> 
> For women, more so than men, appearance is linked to self-esteem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup, this is what I've been saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Women need to come to terms with who they are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean some women and some men need to.
Click to expand...


Men don't really have a problem with their identity. It's been women who've been fighting a battle of definition over the last century.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> Men don't really have a problem with their identity. It's been women who've been fighting a battle of definition over the last century.



Lol!  Oh sure.


----------

