# Men have no rights when it comes to womens health concerning



## Penelope (Sep 8, 2018)

abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


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## SassyIrishLass (Sep 8, 2018)

My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool


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## Penelope (Sep 8, 2018)

SassyIrishLass said:


> My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool



Once they are born. No I'm not going to "fug off" and I get sick of males telling women what they can and can't do and you telling me I'm a tool. What kind of tool am I?


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## strollingbones (Sep 8, 2018)

all the male has to do is control his sperm...sadly men dont care for this answer......when you release  your sperm to a woman ..she now owns it...why dont men take responsibility for their sperm?


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## sparky (Sep 8, 2018)

here we go....again......


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## rightwinger (Sep 8, 2018)

SassyIrishLass said:


> My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool


Your husband has no legal rights


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## Pete7469 (Sep 8, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
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> > My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool
> ...




Unless he's an illegal alien.

Then he can kill you.


.


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## martybegan (Sep 8, 2018)

strollingbones said:


> all the male has to do is control his sperm...sadly men dont care for this answer......when you release  your sperm to a woman ..she now owns it...why dont men take responsibility for their sperm?



If she owns it why is the man then responsible for child support if the woman wants to keep the baby an the guy doesn't?


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## Pete7469 (Sep 8, 2018)

Penelope said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
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> 
> > My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool
> ...




 A broken plastic mallet.


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## Missourian (Sep 8, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


Fair enough...if the woman has 100% of the say,  should she not bear 100% of the responsibility?


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## SassyIrishLass (Sep 8, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
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> > My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool
> ...



Piss off you insufferable troll. I'm sick of your flaming and trolling.


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## SassyIrishLass (Sep 8, 2018)

Missourian said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



Wait wait!!! THAT'S DIFFERENT!!!!!!!


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## pismoe (Sep 8, 2018)

never going to happen , the Male has got to be controlled .     Sorry to say it but from a practical point of view , young guys just gotta very CAREFULLY milk the Cow but always be on the lookout for a NEW cow .


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## otto105 (Sep 8, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.




No rights...."even if the male is married to a female"....


Are you the writer of the Pina Colada song?


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## playtime (Sep 8, 2018)

SassyIrishLass said:


> My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool



you are welcome to let someone else have a superior vote over your autonomy...  but you nor he gets to have that right for anyone else.  you are also welcome to fug off


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## playtime (Sep 8, 2018)

Missourian said:


> Penelope said:
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> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



once a post born human is taking breath in & the cord is cut- then it is all about  a separate human with every right that every other post born human possesses.


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## rightwinger (Sep 8, 2018)

Pete7469 said:


> rightwinger said:
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As usual.....No idea what you are babbling about


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## rightwinger (Sep 8, 2018)

SassyIrishLass said:


> rightwinger said:
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Queen of the Interwebs got her head handed to her again


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## Hiryuu (Sep 8, 2018)

playtime said:


> you are welcome to let someone else have a superior vote over your autonomy...  but you nor he gets to have that right for anyone else.  you are also welcome to fug off



The fact you think it is necessary to tell a man to fug off, or tell them they don't have a right, when the only way they would know is if your stupid ass told them, then it becomes clear the issue really isn't the issue you think it is.


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## playtime (Sep 8, 2018)

Hiryuu said:


> playtime said:
> 
> 
> > you are welcome to let someone else have a superior vote over your autonomy...  but you nor he gets to have that right for anyone else.  you are also welcome to fug off
> ...



lol...   assuming that a marriage is intact enough to actually share that info is what i am talking about. but no matter what,  in the end that final decision doesn't belong to  the sperm donor no matter who that might be;  but would certainly deserve to be told to fuck off if he thinks he did get the last say so.... stupid ass.


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## Hiryuu (Sep 8, 2018)

playtime said:


> lol...   assuming that a marriage is intact enough to actually share that info is what i am talking about. but no matter what,  in the end that final decision doesn't belong to  the sperm donor no matter who that might be;  but would certainly deserve to be told to fuck off if he thinks he did get the last say so.... stupid ass.



I am not assuming anything though. And in support of your position about the final decision, my statement is clear.

If a woman gets pregnant and decides to have an abortion, and for any reason thinks she needs to tell the man, so she can then tell the man he has no rights or say-so, then that has more to do with her daddy issues and/or authority issues, than his rights or need to know.


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## playtime (Sep 8, 2018)

Hiryuu said:


> playtime said:
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> > lol...   assuming that a marriage is intact enough to actually share that info is what i am talking about. but no matter what,  in the end that final decision doesn't belong to  the sperm donor no matter who that might be;  but would certainly deserve to be told to fuck off if he thinks he did get the last say so.... stupid ass.
> ...



not really,  a marriage is a partnership...50/50 until it comes to either ones' bodies.  but you go ahead & think whatever it is you are conjuring up in your head.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 8, 2018)

Penelope said:


> No I'm not going to "fug off" and I get sick of males telling women what they can and can't do



LOL Women tell men what to do all the time


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## Hiryuu (Sep 8, 2018)

playtime said:


> not really,  a marriage is a partnership...50/50 until it comes to either ones' bodies.  but you go ahead & think whatever it is you are conjuring up in your head.



There is nothing 50/50 about a partnership that doesn't have a say-so under any circumstance. If a woman wants to take absolute responsibility for an individual decision where any partner, under any condition, doesn't have an equal say-so in the outcome, then there is no reason to include the other partner. If she chooses to include the other partner, she has only chosen to include a partner that is helpless and at her mercy, and for no other purpose than her own selfish reasons.

It's more than how I look at it, that's the way it is whether or not you want to see it.


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## playtime (Sep 8, 2018)

Hiryuu said:


> playtime said:
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> > not really,  a marriage is a partnership...50/50 until it comes to either ones' bodies.  but you go ahead & think whatever it is you are conjuring up in your head.
> ...



uh- sure.  it's apparent you have had a failing in one or more relationships in the past to believe that is true across the board.       #sad.


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## Hiryuu (Sep 8, 2018)

playtime said:


> uh- sure.  it's apparent you have had a failing in one or more relationships in the past to believe that is true across the board.       #sad.



You can say whatever you want, you still haven't presented an argument against it. Your desire to think it has something to with me, or that I warrant any emotional response, is just a further indication of how your petty, insignificant, misguided beliefs, reflect the thoughtless actions of a foolish woman.


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## playtime (Sep 8, 2018)

Hiryuu said:


> playtime said:
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> > uh- sure.  it's apparent you have had a failing in one or more relationships in the past to believe that is true across the board.       #sad.
> ...



wow- just wow.  i'm 56 yrs old & have been around to know both sides of the equation.   tis you who haven't proven otherwise....  oh well,  i think your nails need some sharpening, sweetheart.


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## Hiryuu (Sep 8, 2018)

playtime said:


> wow- just wow.  i'm 56 yrs old & have been around to know both sides of the equation.   tis you who haven't proven otherwise....  oh well,  i think your nails need some sharpening, sweetheart.



That's still not an argument. You keep coming up short no matter how old you are or what you have seen. You seem to think this is about me and you, when that's got nothing to do with whether or not a strong, independent woman needs to tell a man what he has no control over or decision in, crusty hag.


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## Lysistrata (Sep 8, 2018)

The only person who has the right to make a decision about a pregnancy is the woman who is experiencing it. No man. No government. If you are a man who has thoughts about this matter, be very careful of whom you have sex with. No one forces a man to have sex and implant his sperm. This is entirely voluntary. If a man is unsure of a woman, he should not have sex with her. Just say "no."


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## sparky (Sep 8, 2018)

round & round it goes.....


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## ph3iron (Sep 8, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


Amusing how old white farts who lost their erections years ago are so christian about women's rights


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## Penelope (Sep 8, 2018)

Because he is the father.


martybegan said:


> strollingbones said:
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> > all the male has to do is control his sperm...sadly men dont care for this answer......when you release  your sperm to a woman ..she now owns it...why dont men take responsibility for their sperm?
> ...



Because he helped her get pregnant.  Most men, unless in love, will try and convince the woman to get an abortion and probably  offer to pay for it.  In most marriages they probably will decide together, and or the marriage may break up if she decides not to go ahead with the pregnancy. No one owns another person's body.


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## ph3iron (Sep 8, 2018)

Pete7469 said:


> rightwinger said:
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Omg our locals 30000
Illegals 1?


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## strollingbones (Sep 8, 2018)

No the child deserves the support if you dndon


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 8, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


True.

The right to privacy prohibits government from seeking to compel a woman to give birth against her will.

It likewise prohibits government from compelling a woman to obtain her husband’s consent as a condition of exercising her right to privacy.


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## Lysistrata (Sep 8, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Penelope said:
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> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



Thank you for your comment and it being correct. I also want to point out that the people who wish to stop others from having abortions are people who are adherents to some religious groups. I take it that people who have abortions are not members of these same groups. We are supposed to have freedom of religion in this country, one may not be forced into a religion, and a religion may not be established by the government.


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## playtime (Sep 8, 2018)

Hiryuu said:


> playtime said:
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> > wow- just wow.  i'm 56 yrs old & have been around to know both sides of the equation.   tis you who haven't proven otherwise....  oh well,  i think your nails need some sharpening, sweetheart.
> ...



is that right?  you replied - to me - & started making no sense trying to defend a point that you seem to think is the only possible valid one.  not to mention the silly choice words you used made it obvious it was becoming personal to you....  

lol....'crusty hag'?

lol... meow............hissssssssssssssssssssss.......................... 

*flick*


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 8, 2018)

martybegan said:


> strollingbones said:
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> 
> > all the male has to do is control his sperm...sadly men dont care for this answer......when you release  your sperm to a woman ..she now owns it...why dont men take responsibility for their sperm?
> ...


Because once born a child becomes the responsibility of both parents.

Prior to birth the status of a woman’s pregnancy is the sole responsibility of the woman, and she alone has the right to determine the outcome of that pregnancy:

“Before birth, however, the issue takes on a very different cast. It is an inescapable biological fact that state regulation with respect to the child a woman is carrying will have a far greater impact on the mother's liberty than on the father's. The effect of state regulation on a woman's protected liberty is doubly deserving of scrutiny in such a case, as the State has touched not only upon the private sphere of the family but upon the very bodily integrity of the pregnant woman.”

Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)


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## Hiryuu (Sep 8, 2018)

playtime said:


> is that right?  you replied - to me - & started making no sense trying to defend a point that you seem to think is the only possible valid one.  not to mention the silly choice words you used made it obvious it was becoming personal to you....
> 
> lol....'crusty hag'?
> 
> ...



I did reply to you and you obviously had some objection to it, but still haven't offered an argument of any substance against it. The simple fact you keep trying to suggest it is some kind of struggle between us, instead of supporting anything contrary, is exactly what I am talking about. If you disagree, demonstrating that you are vested in exerting control over someone else, or even the dialog, through conflict based in the foolish desire just to say/post something, will only continue to prove me correct.


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## martybegan (Sep 8, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Because he is the father.
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> martybegan said:
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That doesn't answer my reasoning to the response given.


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## martybegan (Sep 8, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> martybegan said:
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How is that fair? if a woman has a right to an abortion, and it is her choice only, why does a man not have the same right?

if an equal rights amendment is passed, and all references to sex are removed from the law, why would being a woman then give the person an additional layer of choice?


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## Lysistrata (Sep 8, 2018)

Men have rights, but they exercise them at an earlier time in the relationship, when they decide to have sex or not with a particular woman. The argument that men ought to have "equal rights" 50/50 when conception has already occurred fails to recognize that it is the woman who is in possession of the fertilized egg, zygote, whatever stage it's in, and he cannot exercise such a right without involving the woman and completely canceling out her right. Unfortunately, there is no way in which to transfer the whole operation from the female to the male.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 8, 2018)

The notion of a father’s prenatal ‘rights’ fails as red herring fallacy.

The issue solely concerns the fact that the Constitution places limits on the authority of the state with regard to the right to privacy: that the states may not dictate to citizens personal matters, such as whether to have a child or not.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.



Then he should have no financial or personal responsibility for the child either. If he has those responsibilities then he needs to have a say in the care and raising ot the child.


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## The Purge (Sep 9, 2018)

Please...


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.



Imagine a woman having rights concerning a man's penis.....


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Penelope said:
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> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



Well, if he hadn't had sex with her, then he won't have any financial or personal responsibilities, would he?


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## martybegan (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Anathema said:
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The question is why should women have a legal "out" while men do not.

Especially if one day an Equal Rights Amendment is passed that would make any and all laws gender neutral.


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## playtime (Sep 9, 2018)

Hiryuu said:


> playtime said:
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> > is that right?  you replied - to me - & started making no sense trying to defend a point that you seem to think is the only possible valid one.  not to mention the silly choice words you used made it obvious it was becoming personal to you....
> ...



sure... you go with that if it makes you feel better.  this certainly isn't about you & me as far as i'm concerned...  but your words say otherwise. 

you seem to think keeping a secret from a life partner is the way to go.  i think that makes a so called partnership a sham.  what i did say was ..*.if ...in the end...  a female is told by her so called 'partner'  that she must remain pregnant & carry thru with a pregnancy as if he has a superior vote in the matter.... should be told to fug off.... because he doesn't have the right to control her uterus.  IF ... as in the case of the trump/pence loving poster sassyass....  SHE wants to hand over control of her body to her husband... SHE is welcome to do that as long as it stays between THEM... *

why it is so hard for you to 'understand' that bewilders me... you goin' on with some silly pseudo psychoanalysis, bringing in  'daddy issues'  etc... was absurd...  but then again, perhaps you are 'confused'.  either way, you just go on with whatever you got going' on in yer head.


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## playtime (Sep 9, 2018)

'compassionate' CONservativism at its finest.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

martybegan said:


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Well, men have an opt out. It's called not impregnating a woman.


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## Meathead (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


I think abortions should be mandatory in some cases. Clean up the gene pool.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


Which is exactly why no man in any relationship should ever trust a woman to be in charge of birth control


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Penelope said:
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> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



Welcome to the world of sex ed.


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## Hiryuu (Sep 9, 2018)

playtime said:


> sure... you go with that if it makes you feel better.  this certainly isn't about you & me as far as i'm concerned...  but your words say otherwise.
> 
> you seem to think keeping a secret from a life partner is the way to go.  i think that makes a so called partnership a sham.  what i did say was ..*.if ...in the end...  a female is told by her so called 'partner'  that she must remain pregnant & carry thru with a pregnancy as if he has a superior vote in the matter.... should be told to fug off.... because he doesn't have the right to control her uterus.  IF ... as in the case of the trump/pence loving poster sassyass....  SHE wants to hand over control of her body to her husband... SHE is welcome to do that as long as it stays between THEM... *
> 
> why it is so hard for you to 'understand' that bewilders me... you goin' on with some silly pseudo psychoanalysis, bringing in  'daddy issues'  etc... was absurd...  but then again, perhaps you are 'confused'.  either way, you just go on with whatever you got going' on in yer head.



What benefit do you think the woman would gain from telling a man she was killing his unborn baby and he has no choice in the matter?

It's not like I would call my neighbor, tell him I am painting my garage green, and he has no choice in matter whether or not he likes it, when he has no idea I am painting the garage to start with, and never had a choice to begin with.

If a woman decides to have the child, then that's a different story.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Well, if he hadn't had sex with her, then he won't have any financial or personal responsibilities, would he?



True. 100% agreed. HOWEVER, that means Ge gets a say in how the child is raised. Far too often I see situations where the mother thinks the Dad is nothing more than an ATM and babysitter.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Penelope said:
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> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



Oh I agree the father should have influence and be involved in the child's life , once she decides to produce an infant out of their escapade.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Well, men have an opt out. It's called not impregnating a woman.



You do realize the woman has that same opt out, right? That’s why I’m against abortion except for cases of rape. They made a choice. They made a child. Now make a life with that child, or let someone else do so.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Oh I agree the father should have influence and be involved in the child's life , once she decides to produce an infant out of their escapade.



Far too often I see, hear, read about mothers who use their children and courts as a sledgehammer against the father, even if he’s likely the better parent.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


Just as soon as men are not FORCED to pay child support for kids they don't want you might have a point.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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> > Well, if he hadn't had sex with her, then he won't have any financial or personal responsibilities, would he?
> ...



Well this is a different issue really. It's about educating people in how to be successful adults are school. Thinking about relationships, thinking about how they want their life to be, good decision making and the like.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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> > Well, men have an opt out. It's called not impregnating a woman.
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See, I don't agree with that attitude. But I think men need to accept that they're not the ones who are going to be carrying the child. 

We don't need children being born unwanted. There are too many people on this planet already for use to have to care about making the most of every potential human life.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Penelope said:
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> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



If they stick it in , they are responsible for what comes out, if and when it does, even is they don't like it.


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Penelope said:
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> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...


Just take them every few months for birth control shots. 

It's better than dealing with their feminist crap about abortion.


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## martybegan (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


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Then women have an opt out, it's called not getting pregnant.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> See, I don't agree with that attitude. But I think men need to accept that they're not the ones who are going to be carrying the child.



Yet the Man will be expected to PAY for the child. THAT is what my concern is... who is fiscally responsible compared to who is paying for it.



frigidweirdo said:


> We don't need children being born unwanted. There are too many people on this planet already for use to have to care about making the most of every potential human life.



The key to reducing that number of children is forcing both parents to be responsible for the life they made. THST will start to make people think a little more. What would be an even bigger deterrent would be forcing them to marry and stay together until the kid turns 18.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


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Take who for shots??  I must say I always though you were a female but I guess I guessed wrong, your a man.


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


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Yes. Shots. If feminists insist on teaching girls to use sex/ pregnancy as a weapon against men ,they should agree to take shots every three months before entering into any sexual relationship.

Look your mothership can even help you out.

Depo-Provera | Birth Control Shot | Birth Control Injection


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
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Maybe you do , but I have to assume your are a kept woman.   A female can take whatever she wants for BC, and a man should not be taking her to get her shots, unless of course she asks him to. She is not a dog.

I don't need help.


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
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Apparently not since feminist women seem to be too stupid to figure out sex makes babies...and then cry for abortion on demand after the fact.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
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And no man should believe any woman if she says she is on birth control and that woman should not be insulted in the least for not being believed


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Always use a condom or get fixed.


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Feminists are all about sexual equality. YOU provide birth control or get fixed.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



You are a kept woman, probably never had to work in her life.   Sex ed should be taught in all schools in jr, high and parents including the ultra religious ones should speak to their kids about the birds and the bees.
I am a woman's feminist  and proud of it.  You need a man to support you.


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Sex Ed has been taught in school since the 70's. What's the " modern " feminists excuse for being so stupid as to not know how to obtain birth control and use it?


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



I don't know, why do wealthy republican holy women get pg and get abortions??


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Hopefully everyone is using a condom.  A women should not get fixed if she thinks in the future she might have a child.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Oh I agree the father should have influence and be involved in the child's life , once she decides to produce an infant out of their escapade.
> ...


Red herring fallacy.

This has nothing to do with the fact that government cannot compel a woman to give birth against her will, including compelling her through force of law to obtain the ‘consent’ of her husband when seeking to terminate her pregnancy.


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Neither should a man. So why are you demanding they should?


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## Lysistrata (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Well, men have an opt out. It's called not impregnating a woman.
> ...



How are you going to make sure that the woman does not go through nine months of pregnancy, perhaps dangerous, vomiting, and does not bleed or suffer pain in the birthing process, and the father will be right there to comfort her, and accept the infant, and take it away if she does not want it. 

Sorry, men just don't go through pregnancy and childbirth or risk their lives in any way. At most, they spend five minutes having a feel-good time. Never is there any risk to their lives, health, or any interference with their daily lives. No blood of their's is shed.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Well, lets face it, they can't carry a fetus or have kids.  We really do hold all the cards and now the old men on the Supreme Court and the GOP men want to control us females.  Yet they love their affairs. 
Rich women have more abortions than poor women, study finds


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## Soggy in NOLA (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Oh you poor little winches.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Ideally, yes.

But the sophistry conservatives attempt to propagate, that a woman who ‘acts irresponsibly’ should ‘forfeit’ her right to privacy as a consequence, is ridiculous and devoid of merit.


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## Dragonlady (Sep 9, 2018)

SassyIrishLass said:


> My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool



Then that’s your choice, isn’t it. 

This is what the anti-abortion crowd fails to understand. With women’s right to her own body secure, you can include him in the decision if you want. That’s what being pro-choice means. 

No one is forcing you to exclude him. But you’re trying to exclude the opinion of the woman entirely by ignoring her opinion if that means she chooses to terminate the pregnancy. That’s not gonna fly.


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## Dragonlady (Sep 9, 2018)

Missourian said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



You had your say when you let your swimmers loose. You could have worn a condom with a spermicide but you didn’t. 

It takes two people to have a baby. She didn’t do it all herself.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

Condoms are a form of barrier birth control, and they come in many varieties. Some condoms come coated with spermicide, which is a type of chemical. The spermicide most often used on condoms is *nonoxynol*-9. When used perfectly, condoms can protect against pregnancy 98 percent of the time.Apr 25, 2017
*Do Spermicide Condoms Work? - Healthline*
Do Spermicide Condoms Work?

and prevent VD's , cervical ca, and HIV.  There isn't any reason a woman should have to even take the pill is there, when the condoms combat both issues.  The BC is 99% effective if the woman is diligent. 

Why take the chance??


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Hold all the cards? You can't make a baby without male sperm...so not really.

As for affairs with rich men...it's not like you little liberal gold diggers don't search them out.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



True, but why should women have to take an internal medication when men can just don a condom?   Why are men not in control of this stuff.  If men want sex, carry good quality condoms.  Women are not dogs to be taken in to get their shots.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Wow...........Mind boggling..............Only women can have kids.............

Have you told the gay community that................and there is a method to.........ummmm......make that happen other than a sperm bank.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 9, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


And yet you claim only one gets to decide if it is born or not.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 9, 2018)

eagle1462010 said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...


You actually think men can have babies?


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 9, 2018)

No one takes issue with the notion of personal responsibility, and that individuals must take precautions to avoid unwanted pregnancies.

But the notion of personal responsibility is likewise a red herring, in no manner mitigating the right to privacy, the right of a woman to end her pregnancy, and the prohibition against the state to seek to deny a woman her right to privacy.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Then they should have a say in the child being born.


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## BlueGin (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


I thought women wanted to be "in control of their own bodies"? If you don't want " babies " go get birth control. They make it easy now for you forgetful morons. 1 shot every three months or an IUD for the long term. No excuse for women who are allegedly "in control of their own bodies". To get pregnant because they are lazy.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 9, 2018)

RetiredGySgt said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


LOL  Nope.......was being sarcastic to the left .............


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## Natural Citizen (Sep 9, 2018)

Laws won't change the morailty of the people. The morality of the people needs to change and then that will reflect on the laws that are written.


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## buttercup (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Condoms are a form of barrier birth control, and they come in many varieties. Some condoms come coated with spermicide, which is a type of chemical. The spermicide most often used on condoms is *nonoxynol*-9. When used perfectly, condoms can protect against pregnancy 98 percent of the time.Apr 25, 2017
> *Do Spermicide Condoms Work? - Healthline*
> Do Spermicide Condoms Work?
> 
> ...



A lot of women who have abortions are very young. Obviously when people are very young, they are irresponsible. Often alcohol is involved,  which means people aren't thinking clearly, and birth control is not used properly, if at all.  Even when birth control _*is*_ used properly, it's still not foolproof.  So I think it's foolish for people to put all their faith and trust in birth control.  In my opinion, people who are not responsible enough to deal with the consequences of having sex, shouldn't be encouraged to have sex in the first place.  The typical response to that is, "They are going to have sex no matter what, whether we like it or not."   Whether that's true or not, I think that our society overall has failed young people, in what they've been taught about sex, birth control, and abortion.

I'm going to share a link to an audio that I think everyone should listen to. I don't agree with this woman's religious views (she is Catholic, an ex-atheist) but  *this talk* is a must hear.  She brings up some excellent points, that are undeniable.    *http://jenniferfulwiler.com/wp-cont...ulwiler-pro-choice-to-pro-life-conversion.mp3 *(It's 24 minutes long, but I hope people take the time to listen to it.)


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## Missourian (Sep 9, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> You had your say when you let your swimmers loose. You could have worn a condom with a spermicide but you didn’t.
> 
> It takes two people to have a baby. She didn’t do it all herself.



Isn't that the same argument pro-lifers make?  That women had their say when the had sex without using birth control or demanding that the man use a condom...that they knew the risks...so abortion should be illegal.


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## Dragonlady (Sep 9, 2018)

Missourian said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > You had your say when you let your swimmers loose. You could have worn a condom with a spermicide but you didn’t.
> ...



No that is not their argument. And women aren’t having sex without birth control. That stuff isn’t nearly as reliable as they tell you. 

I know very few women who haven’t had unintended pregnancies. Most women I know in a committed relationship have the baby, but I don’t live in the US. 

Canadian students have mandated sex education classes. You can’t opt out of them on religious grounds. 

We also have job protections for pregnant women and paid maternity leave funded by EI. Not to mention government funded health care, contraception and free abortions.

As a result, our abortion rate is half what yours is.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Nope they have no choice in the matter if a woman choses to abort or not.


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## Dragonlady (Sep 9, 2018)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > Missourian said:
> ...



Only one side has to carry the fetus for nine months and give birth to the child. If the father decides to take off, the mother is on her own. That’s why it’s her decision. 

She’s also the one who has to live with the consequences of that decision. Which ever way she decides.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Condoms are a form of barrier birth control, and they come in many varieties. Some condoms come coated with spermicide, which is a type of chemical. The spermicide most often used on condoms is *nonoxynol*-9. When used perfectly, condoms can protect against pregnancy 98 percent of the time.Apr 25, 2017
> ...



She has now decided that a fetus is a human being, but the issue is its not about her personal feelings or mine, its about being pro choice. She is not the one raising it or carrying the fetus for hopefully 40 weeks.

She is also against contraception.  I'm a cradle Catholic and I find her pushing her views on others is not what we need. She should go live in Saudi Arabia or something , a country with a theology to control their citizens. We have freedom of religion in the US.

One of our Gop republicans wife got an abortion in HS, it came out when he was running for representative and now they are both pro life and anti abortion and want to close planned parenthoods.


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## Dragonlady (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Very few women can take those shots. They are extremely high risk and have vicious side effects. BCP’s are, at best, 85% effective, and again, a lot of women cannot take them. IUD’s also about 85% effective and they can cause very painful cramping and bleeding and are not for everyone.

Men think that birth control is so easy and keeping from getting pregnant is a piece of cake. It’s not. You have to find the right method and use it properly, without fail, without a weak moment, or a forgetful moment. You system has to tolerate strong hormone therapy well, the condoms can’t break.

I can’t take strong hormones. I cramp so badly I had to take time off work with them and that’s without an IUD. The Pill made me so sick I couldn’t take them. Since my daughter is going through similar problems and with similar results, (her surprise celebrated his first birthday last month, mine celebrated his 46th the day before his nephew), Little has changed since the 90’s.


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## Dragonlady (Sep 9, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Condoms are a form of barrier birth control, and they come in many varieties. Some condoms come coated with spermicide, which is a type of chemical. The spermicide most often used on condoms is *nonoxynol*-9. When used perfectly, condoms can protect against pregnancy 98 percent of the time.Apr 25, 2017
> ...



Actually very few of the women having abortions are very young - a little over 11% of all abortions are teenagers and alcohol isn’t a major factor.  8% of all abortions are for girls 18 or 19 which means that only 3% are for very young girls. These fallacies being preached by right wingers paint a false picture of who are getting abortions

Here’s the fact sheet on who is getting an abortion. Their ages, races, marital status and the reasons why:

Induced Abortion in the United States


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## buttercup (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> She has now decided that a fetus is a human being, but the issue is its not about her personal feelings or mine, its about being pro choice. She is not the one raising it or carrying the fetus for hopefully 40 weeks.



No, it's about when life begins. Of course it's not about her personal feelings, yours or mine.  It has nothing to do with feelings, it is a scientific fact that the pre-born baby is a human being, a person, simply in a different stage of life than you and I.

You are not actually "pro-choice."   If you _were_ pro-choice, then you would give the victim the choice on whether he wants to live or die.  And something that has always irked me to no end is how the very carefully crafted phrase "pro-choice" never finishes the sentence. Pro choice for what? It never states what that "choice" is for.  It is pro "choice" for killing. At least be honest about it. Regardless of what the law says, there is no right to take the life of an innocent human being. Unless you are God. Which you are not.



> She is also against contraception.  I'm a cradle Catholic and I find her pushing her views on others is not what we need. She should go live in Saudi Arabia or something , a country with a theology.



Did you even listen to it?  She's not trying to take away the right for people to use contraception. She is trying to get people to look at and question their entire view of sex, birth control and abortion.   Did you hear the part about the two lists? Everything she said is undeniable. It is backed up with reason, logic, and the reality that we can see in this world. All of those things clearly went over your head, or you are choosing to ignore them.

Your way doesn't work. Period. Your worldview leads to unwanted pregnancies, STDs, emotional damage, confusion, and hundreds of millions of killings of the most innocent among us...All for the sake of convenience, and selfishness. 



> One of our Gop republicans got an abortion in HS, it came out when he was running for representative and now they are both pro life and anti abortion and want to close planned parenthoods.



And what's your point? That politicians are liars and hypocrites? Well that's a shocker. Getting back to the point of that audio, it's clear that your way hasn't worked. So an intellectually honest person is at least willing to take an honest look at their views, and genuinely consider whether or not there is a better way. Killing is not the answer. Why should the most innocent among us have to die (and abortion doesn't only affect the baby, it affects the mother as well, on a number of levels) because you guys aren't willing to re-examine your failed philosophy?


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## buttercup (Sep 9, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> buttercup said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



I consider the 20's to be young. And that makes up more than half of all abortions. My point stands.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 9, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Your stats are not correct. But then what does one expect from a liar.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This has nothing to do with the fact that government cannot compel a woman to give birth against her will, including compelling her through force of law to obtain the ‘consent’ of her husband when seeking to terminate her pregnancy.



I believe both the Government and her Husbabd should have that power; along with the Right and Duty to terminate her life if she finds a way to end the pregnancy.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> How are you going to make sure that the woman does not go through nine months of pregnancy, perhaps dangerous, vomiting, and does not bleed or suffer pain in the birthing process, and the father will be right there to comfort her, and accept the infant, and take it away if she does not want it.



As I said in a previous post, he should be legally forced to marry and support her until th child reaches age 18.


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## Natural Citizen (Sep 9, 2018)

buttercup said:


> I consider the 20's to be young. And that makes up more than half of all abortions. My point stands.



Yeah. That's generally what most people think of as young. 20s...


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > See, I don't agree with that attitude. But I think men need to accept that they're not the ones who are going to be carrying the child.
> ...



Well, when there's a child, someone needs to look after it. And that costs money. And a woman can't work and effectively look after a child. 

You want parents to be forced to stay together for 18 years. That's clearly the wrong "solution" to the problem.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Well, when there's a child, someone needs to look after it. And that costs money. And a woman can't work and effectively look after a child.
> 
> You want parents to be forced to stay together for 18 years. That's clearly the wrong "solution" to the problem.



The best solution would be for both people to keep their pants on until they’re ready to have children. Since our society refuses to enforce that expectation, we end up in this mess.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Well, when there's a child, someone needs to look after it. And that costs money. And a woman can't work and effectively look after a child.
> ...



Well, maybe. But I'm looking at this from the point of view of how you can get from where we are today, to the point where it would be much better.

Humans are humans. You can change humans, but that requires EDUCATION. It's really the only way. Proper sex ed, proper education giving people the right skills for the future. That's what is needed.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Humans are humans. You can change humans, but that requires EDUCATION. It's really the only way. Proper sex ed, proper education giving people the right skills for the future. That's what is needed.



Fear and Pain work far better than education in situations like this. Always have and always will.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Humans are humans. You can change humans, but that requires EDUCATION. It's really the only way. Proper sex ed, proper education giving people the right skills for the future. That's what is needed.
> ...



Fear and pain are the solution for people who don't want to think too much. Good teachers are those who encourage, bad teachers are those who resort to fear and pain.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Fear and pain are the solution for people who don't want to think too much. Good teachers are those who encourage, bad teachers are those who resort to fear and pain.



You concern yourself with “teaching” these people why not to do something. We see how well that works. I’m not concerned with explaining anything other than the consequences for the improper act.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > How are you going to make sure that the woman does not go through nine months of pregnancy, perhaps dangerous, vomiting, and does not bleed or suffer pain in the birthing process, and the father will be right there to comfort her, and accept the infant, and take it away if she does not want it.
> ...



What make you think she wants him as a husband, forced to marry, no way. Women fought hard for their rights and we are not going to let them be taken away.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > She has now decided that a fetus is a human being, but the issue is its not about her personal feelings or mine, its about being pro choice. She is not the one raising it or carrying the fetus for hopefully 40 weeks.
> ...



I listened to her and it made me ill. Who does she think she is that she found religion to declare when a fetus is a viable infant, and also who is she to talk about contraception being against her opinion. I could careless what she says since she has found religion.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

BlueGin said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



You said take them to the doctor every few months for a shot.  You are everything that I declare is nothing but a stepford wife or perhaps an old maid or maybe even a prostitute (there are all kinds) since you seem to want men taking care of you and making your decisions.  Long ago many women fought for rights and you just tramp on them.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Fear and pain are the solution for people who don't want to think too much. Good teachers are those who encourage, bad teachers are those who resort to fear and pain.
> ...



Teaching people is doing something. 

You won't see how it works because the politicians don't do long term things, because the whole system is messed up and it's in no politician and rich person's interests to change that.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



She is correct, many women and teens have adverse effect from the BC pill.  How would men and male teens  like to take hormones.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> What make you think she wants him as a husband, forced to marry, no way. Women fought hard for their rights and we are not going to let them be taken away.



What makes you think I care what she thinks or wants. If she didn’t want to potentially marry him, she shouldn’t have been in bed with him. 

Don’t worry Kavanaugh and whoever replaces RBG will help Conservatives undo the improper “women’s rights” debacle; or we’ll undo it by force if necessary.


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## buttercup (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> I listened to her and it made me ill. Who does she think she is that she found religion to declare when a fetus is a viable infant, and also who is she to talk about contraception being against her opinion. I could careless what she says since she has found religion.



You keep ignoring everything. I repeat, it is a scientific fact (not opinion) that the pre-born baby is a human being, simply in a different stage of life than you and I. It is also a fact, (not opinion)  that birth-control does not always work, especially when we're talking about younger people who are not yet mature and responsible.  So as she correctly stated, *your* view is akin to playing Russian roulette. 

Everything she said was true,  and if you don't think so, then point out specifically what she said that you think is untrue. Waving her entire speech off just because you don't like your views being challenged is lazy and closed-minded.


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## Anathema (Sep 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> .You won't see how it works because the politicians don't do long term things, because the whole system is messed up and it's in no politician and rich person's interests to change that.



The Peasabts don’t need to understand most things, they just need to understand that if they do certain things, there will be unpleasant consequences.


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## Rambunctious (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> What kind of tool am I?


A tool of the baby killers.....what else?....


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

Rambunctious said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of tool am I?
> ...



A baby is what a fetus becomes after birth, and no i'm not a baby killer.  What else do you have.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > I listened to her and it made me ill. Who does she think she is that she found religion to declare when a fetus is a viable infant, and also who is she to talk about contraception being against her opinion. I could careless what she says since she has found religion.
> ...



She found religion and in the next several years she may lose it.  Her opinion is just that , her opinion. My opinion is based on equal rights.

Most jews think a baby is a human when they take their first breath, on their own, a cry. How about that. Jesus was a jew , I bet he felt the same way.  There is an abortion curse in the OT.
When Does Life Begin? A Jewish View | Reclaiming Judaism


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## Rambunctious (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> A baby is what a fetus becomes after birth, and no i'm not a baby killer. What else do you have


what if you are wrong?......

because you are completely misinformed....


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## Unkotare (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.



Of course men have rights. Don’t be absurd.


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## Unkotare (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool
> ...




Too bad.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

Unkotare said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...



Yes it is too bad for men.


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## Penelope (Sep 9, 2018)

Unkotare said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



After the birth, not before.


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## buttercup (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> She found religion and in the next several years she may lose it.  Her opinion is just that , her opinion. My opinion is based on equal rights.
> 
> Most jews think a baby is a human when they take their first breath, on their own, a cry. How about that. Jesus was a jew , I bet he felt the same way.  There is an abortion curse in the OT.



Equal rights? I can't believe you're saying that with a straight face. If you were truly for equal rights, you would be pro-life. You wouldn't be trampling all over the the most basic right of all, the right to life… For ALL human beings. 

Again, you're ignoring all of her points that cannot be denied. Teaching kids that sex is completely separate from its life given potential, teaching kids that sex is only about having fun, encouraging them to be sexually active and just throwing a condom at them has not worked. Unless you consider 60 million abortions a success. Not to mention all the other issues that go along with your failed philosophy.


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## Dragonlady (Sep 9, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > buttercup said:
> ...



You have no point. What you consider to be “very young” is irrelevant. What matters is what age society establishes for the age of consent. 

18 is the age of consent in most states. It’s old enough to be graduated from high school, and old enough to marry in most states. 

You’re also utterly ignoring the information on relationship status, religion and income, as well as the reasons for having the abortion because it doesn’t suit your narrative of young party girls getting taken advantage of. 

You can’t ask a fetus how it feels about having its life terminated because it doesn’t have a brain. 

And again it’s NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one. It’s very effective. It’s called being pro choice.


----------



## buttercup (Sep 9, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> You have no point. What you consider to be “very young” is irrelevant. What matters is what age society establishes for the age of consent.
> 
> 18 is the age of consent in most states. It’s old enough to be graduated from high school, and old enough to marry in most states.
> 
> ...



I think you set a new record for how many blatantly false statements, logical fallacies and red herrings one can fit into one post. Good job!


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 9, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > .You won't see how it works because the politicians don't do long term things, because the whole system is messed up and it's in no politician and rich person's interests to change that.
> ...



And you don't seem to understand that there are better ways of doing things.


----------



## yiostheoy (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


You Penelope are forgetting that fetuses (feti) are male sometimes too.

It's just a guy thing, this ethics issue, about questioning the  murdering of unborn babies at will.

It's not just a puzzy thing.

Normally your comments are quite thoughtful and smart.

But this time you sold yourself short, I am afraid.


----------



## yiostheoy (Sep 9, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> buttercup said:
> 
> 
> > Dragonlady said:
> ...


Children's brains are not fully developed until age 25.

18 is way too young.


----------



## yiostheoy (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Nothing magical about when a female spreads her legs and pops out a new kid.

My personal view is that if the fetus is viable outside the womb then it should be entitled to human rights.  But that's just me.

The whole ethical issue is whether fetuses (feti) are entitled to protection from a host female who wants to murder them.  That is a way bigger picture.

It's not just a my-puzzy-is-my-puzzy thing.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



You, like everyone else, will continue to be told what you can and can't do. Yes, even by men. Grow the fuck up and deal with it.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 9, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...




Before, during, and after.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> And you don't seem to understand that there are better ways of doing things.



You make the mistake of trying to teach the unwashed masses why something is wrong whereas I simply make them understand the consequence of doing it. Your way takes longer, is less effective and leads to people questioning already determined policies.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > And you don't seem to understand that there are better ways of doing things.
> ...



Your way is a quick fix that leads to future problems. 

You can hit a kid to make them behave, but when they become adults, they're more likely to turn that violence on others.

Is that a good solution to a problem? How does making the problem WORSE for a quick fix become a suitable solution?


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > This has nothing to do with the fact that government cannot compel a woman to give birth against her will, including compelling her through force of law to obtain the ‘consent’ of her husband when seeking to terminate her pregnancy.
> ...



You are so full of shit, to the point of threatening violence. Your misogyny is of a very pure strain. Neither the man nor the government has the right for force a woman into what amounts to slavery.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> You are so full of shit, to the point of threatening violence. Your misogyny is of a very pure strain. Neither the man nor the government has the right for force a woman into what amounts to slavery.



No. To the point of using violence, in my own relationship. That’s how you know a truly pure strain of misogyny. It’s only in the last century that you women have been granted a place at the table of society and you’ve done nothing but piss on the table and shit in the salad bowl.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Your way is a quick fix that leads to future problems.
> 
> You can hit a kid to make them behave, but when they become adults, they're more likely to turn that violence on others.
> 
> Is that a good solution to a problem? How does making the problem WORSE for a quick fix become a suitable solution?



You see that as a problem. I call that Proper Discipline.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.



Troll much?


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Why would any woman have unprotected sex, when pregnancy is so dangerous?  Are they dumb?  In addition, why should such dumb women be allowed to play God with their fetus’ life?


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Your way is a quick fix that leads to future problems.
> ...



Yes, I have no doubt you see physical violence as "Proper Discipline". But I also know that you're causing more problems than you're solving. 

That you don't see this, is part of the problem.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Well, when there's a child, someone needs to look after it. And that costs money. And a woman can't work and effectively look after a child.
> ...



Society used to enforce these expectations in the days before reliable birth control. Women were shamed and humiliated if they were pregnant out of wedlock with no husbands. The unwed mother’s homes were filled as were the orphanages. Shotgun weddings were common.

People stopped doing that shit BECAUSE IT DIDN’T WORK.

You seriously need to be taken out behind the barn and horsewhipped. It’s a punishment applicable to the stupid ideas you promote.


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...



First, birth-control methods have what they call "failure rates. Look it up. The sex was not necessarily "unprotected." Second, it is not "playing God" to have an abortion. That depends on what religious choices the woman makes.
THIRD: THIS IS ALL NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS. Mind your own sex and reproductive life, and the rest of us will mind ours.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > What make you think she wants him as a husband, forced to marry, no way. Women fought hard for their rights and we are not going to let them be taken away.
> ...



No he won’t. None of your hair brained ideas are coming to fruition so go take your meds.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 10, 2018)

Rambunctious said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > A baby is what a fetus becomes after birth, and no i'm not a baby killer. What else do you have
> ...



What am I misinformed about?


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Lysistrata said:
> ...


BS as expected. You cite failure rates which are minuscule and entirely off topic. 

Second you claim a woman’s right to murder her child without legal consequences, is not playing God.  Logically and obviously it is.  Think before posting. 

Thirdly you cite the long discredited propaganda by the abortion industry, that the father has no say in the life or death decision of his child.  Very convenient no?  Entirely illogical.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 10, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > She found religion and in the next several years she may lose it.  Her opinion is just that , her opinion. My opinion is based on equal rights.
> ...



It is you who are wrong on every level. All you talk about are the rights of the fetus. It doesn’t have rights. It doesn’t have opinions. It’s not a person. 

There are many more reasons to have sex that have nothing to do with procreation or “fun” and much to do with our good health and well being. 

A healthy sex life is important to both physical and mental health and well being. It strengthens the relationship and bonds between a couple. 

Look at the abortion statistics. Poor women are getting abortions.  Poor women who are in a relationship and already have at least one child. 

It’s not the free living party girls, or teenagers. It’s adult women who can’t afford to lose their jobs because they’re pregnant. 

The right rejects this image over and over and tries to sell the idea that the abortion rate is fueled by hedonism when in reality is it fueled by Republican policies towards the working poor.


----------



## miketx (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.


Murderer.


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> buttercup said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Agreed.  Our society needs to protect innocent life.  The women you describe need assistance and legal protections during their pregnancy.  They can then choose adoption should they and the father approve.  Adoption networks which use to exist before the abortionists terminated them, should be reestablished.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...





gipper said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



You men have no rights over a female's body and her reproduction rights. Wear a condom, then all would be taken care of , except a few mishaps, its about time men take the responsibility instead of women.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 10, 2018)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



No actually I don't. But apparently you do , what are you doing here is not to add to the debate?


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...


It is not about men’s rights. It is about the rights of the innocent unborn. 

Zealots like you are incapable of logically thinking.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Yes, I have no doubt you see physical violence as "Proper Discipline". But I also know that you're causing more problems than you're solving.
> 
> That you don't see this, is part of the problem.



In that we will have to disagree.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Society used to enforce these expectations in the days before reliable birth control. Women were shamed and humiliated if they were pregnant out of wedlock with no husbands. The unwed mother’s homes were filled as were the orphanages. Shotgun weddings were common.
> 
> People stopped doing that shit BECAUSE IT DIDN’T WORK.
> 
> You seriously need to be taken out behind the barn and horsewhipped. It’s a punishment applicable to the stupid ideas you promote.



Society played at enforcing those expectations. Instead the fed and clothed the women and children and did nothing to the fathers. In a proper society all three would have been thrown out in their asses to fend for themselves. That would have worked far better.

Bring your whip. Just make sure I don’t t get up afterwards, or there will be issues.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Sep 10, 2018)

In every way human life and their potential begins at conception..  You may deny their soul but you can't deny the science.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ——"


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> You men have no rights over a female's body and her reproduction rights. Wear a condom, then all would be taken care of , except a few mishaps, its about time men take the responsibility instead of women.



I most certainly have rights over any individual who I financially support. Every woman I ever dated was made aware of that, and my wife knew that long before we got physical. 

I agree condoms are a good idea, but not having sex with anyone you aren’t willing to marry and raise a child with is a far better idea.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Dragonlady said:
> ...



And you can avoid getting a female pg  by wearing a condom or get yourself fixed.  Why is it men do not want to take responsibility??


----------



## Penelope (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > You men have no rights over a female's body and her reproduction rights. Wear a condom, then all would be taken care of , except a few mishaps, its about time men take the responsibility instead of women.
> ...



No actually you don't. Men can rape their spouse,

When did it become illegal for a husband to rape his wife?
The legal history of marital rape laws in the United States is a long and complex one, that spans over several decades. The criminalization of marital rape in the United States started in the mid-*1970s* and by 1993 marital rape became a crime in all 50 states, under at least one section of the sexual offense codes.
*Marital rape (United States law) - Wikipedia*
Marital rape (United States law) - Wikipedia

------------------------------------
*you guys had your cake and ate it too, well now you don't have any cake.*


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Dragonlady said:
> ...



The unborn have no rights. They’re not “innocents”, they blobs of tissue that have the potential to become a baby if allowed to develop and grow. Your way strips rights from everyone involved except that blob of tissue. 

It is you who is the zealot here. Being pro-choice has no effect on you whatsoever. If you believe abortion is wrong, your choice is to carry the child to delivery and good on you. Pro-choice is right for all. You don’t like abortion. Don’t have one. Can’t afford another child, terminate the pregnancy. 

Either choice has no effect on anyone but the women and their families. And those are the people whose choice it is.


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Zealots.  Ugh!


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Why do you like killing human beings?


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > You men have no rights over a female's body and her reproduction rights. Wear a condom, then all would be taken care of , except a few mishaps, its about time men take the responsibility instead of women.
> ...



You have no rights over anyone but yourself, no matter what you think. You may have had rights over underage children when they were younger.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



Do you like being a total idiot?


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dragonlady said:
> ...


Here I thought you were reasonable. You are just another zealot.


----------



## Correll (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.




No rights and 100 per cent responsibility.


And that is a liberal's idea of fair.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



When do you consider them human enough to have rights?


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> No actually you don't. Men can rape their spouse,
> ------------------------------------
> *you guys had your cake and ate it too, well now you don't have any cake.*



She’s smart enough to know that any accusation against me puts us both on the street homeless in 60-90 days. She doesn’t want that. Besides, sex isn’t even a major part of our relationship.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> You have no rights over anyone but yourself, no matter what you think. You may have had rights over underage children when they were younger.



LOL. Thankfully my wife is brighter than you. When I pay all the bills I make all the decisions. She can leave any time she wants to go wander the streets, but as long as she lived under my roof she lived by my rules. Period.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > You have no rights over anyone but yourself, no matter what you think. You may have had rights over underage children when they were younger.
> ...



Just wondering.. how would she react to your post..?

Mine, not so well....


----------



## PredFan (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.



Abortion is not a women's health issue. You fail.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Sep 10, 2018)

PredFan said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



I'm thinkin many liberal women came up short on the, "Mom" gene unless it's a show for political convenience and free stuff.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Lumpy 1 said:


> Just wondering.. how would she react to your post..?
> 
> Mine, not so well....



Mine knows, understands, accepts and embraces her role in life. This is the type of relationship she was looking for as much as I was.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Lumpy 1 said:
> 
> 
> > Just wondering.. how would she react to your post..?
> ...



My wife and I were on the same page the minute we met and 32 years later we're still blessed, it's great when that happens..

.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



A debate that has been hashed out infinite times.
Simply making a thread with nothing new but the most divisive argument presented is, indeed, trolling.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > buttercup said:
> ...



Innocent life like the life of cows, pigs, chickens and sheep? They're killed in the BILLIONS every year.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I have no doubt you see physical violence as "Proper Discipline". But I also know that you're causing more problems than you're solving.
> ...



Disagree because you're too lazy to be bothered to see the reality?

Isn't that just the conservative way?


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Sep 10, 2018)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > iamwhatiseem said:
> ...



It's a lot like a message board..


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dragonlady said:
> ...


Damn a human fetus is no different from a cow, pig, chicken or sheep??   Good God that’s dumb.


----------



## Correll (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dragonlady said:
> ...




Humans are above animals. It is sad that you do not know that.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Disagree because you're too lazy to be bothered to see the reality?
> 
> Isn't that just the conservative way?



Both, to some degree. The Conservative way is not to question our Elders and Betters. They are simply passing down the Truth that been passed down for generations.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 10, 2018)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > iamwhatiseem said:
> ...



Actually no, I said men have no rights when it comes to abortion, I am not declaring if  abortion is right or not , I am specifically saying MEN have no rights when it comes to abortion.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



Listen to yourself. 

You said "Our society needs to protect innocent life" didn't you?

Is a cow innocent or not? 

Also, why is the life of one animal more important than the life of another? You've just evoked God. This being the supposed God who have life to all these creatures, and apparently the only one that's important is the human one.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Disagree because you're too lazy to be bothered to see the reality?
> ...



Ah yes, don't question people no matter how wrong they are. 

Because it's the only way they can keep face. 

Sorry, but that's idiotic. Respect older people, yes, but then respect all people. Let them make decisions even when they're wrong, no.


----------



## Lumpy 1 (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



There are advantages and realities to being at the top of the food chain..


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Clearly you are making an ignorant argument.  Why?

You may want to eat unborn babies, but sane people do not.  .

Do you consider the unborn guilty and sinful?


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> ]Ah yes, don't question people no matter how wrong they are.
> 
> Because it's the only way they can keep face.
> 
> Sorry, but that's idiotic. Respect older people, yes, but then respect all people. Let them make decisions even when they're wrong, no.



Traditions exist, and have existed, for thousands of years for a reason. You may not like or agree with them but many of us do. If these ideals and values worked for all those generations there is no need to change them now.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > You have no rights over anyone but yourself, no matter what you think. You may have had rights over underage children when they were younger.
> ...



I know you said it works well for both of you , so as I have understood your relationship is a 2 way street. That is ok, its not like your forcing her to stay.  This is a debate about men have no rights to the decision of abortions.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...




Obviously we do.


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > ]Ah yes, don't question people no matter how wrong they are.
> ...



The problem is that_ they did not work _for the millions of people who have lived subjugated to them during the course of so many centuries. Traditions many times have merely represented making the same mistake over and over again, to the detriment of others, and getting away with it by drawing a veil of social respectability over it. 

Whenever the terms "tradition," "traditional," or "conservative" are used, ask yourself who is getting screwed here? Who is being denied a right, a freedom, an opportunity to earn a privilege? Sometimes the situation even involves people being banned from the basic right to walk down the street, circulate in society, travel freely, enter into a marriage with a partner of one's choosing (this involves intimate sexual relations, you know), ditch a bad marriage, control one's own material assets.

You cannot just write off the experiences of millions of people and then just declare that everything is peachy.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> I know you said it works well for both of you , so as I have understood your relationship is a 2 way street. That is ok, its not like your forcing her to stay.  This is a debate about men have no rights to the decision of abortions.



I don’t engage in debate, only discussion; but making decisions is what my wife has me around for; whether it’s what she’s making for dinner tonight (spaghetti and Italian sausage) or what medical procedures she needs.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> The problem is that_ they did not work _for the millions of people who have lived subjugated to them during the course of so many centuries....
> 
> Whenever the terms "tradition," "traditional," or "conservative" are used, ask yourself who is getting screwed here? Who is being denied a right, a freedom, an opportunity to earn a privilege? Sometimes the situation even involves people being banned from the basic right to walk down the street, circulate in society, travel freely, enter into a marriage with a partner of one's choosing (this involves intimate sexual relations, you know), ditch a bad marriage, control one's own material assets.
> 
> You cannot just write off the experiences of millions of people and then just declare that everything is peachy.



I write off the experiences of millions of people every day. Just because they were unhappy doesn’t mean the system was wrong.

You have to remember that I’m an Authoritarian. I don’t believe in Rights or Freedom. I believe in Right and Wrong as black and white concepts. There are no exceptions.


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 10, 2018)

Who determines what is right or wrong? You? You do not appear to be exceptionally qualified for this task.


----------



## buttercup (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> You men have no rights over a female's body and her reproduction rights. Wear a condom, then all would be taken care of , except a few mishaps, its about time men *take the responsibility instead of women.*



I hope you're not saying that having an abortion is taking responsibility. Taking responsibility would be either keeping the baby, or giving the baby up for adoption, which is a beautiful, selfless gift.  *Having an abortion is not "taking responsibility" – it is the exact opposite.* It is destroying a unique individual human life, for the sake of convenience and selfishness.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 10, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > You men have no rights over a female's body and her reproduction rights. Wear a condom, then all would be taken care of , except a few mishaps, its about time men *take the responsibility instead of women.*
> ...



Again what you hope is irrelevant. And yes having an abortion is taking responsibility.  And again these decisions ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

One in four women in the United States will have an abortion by the time they’re forty years old.  Very few of the decisions to have an abortion will be made for convenience or selfishness.

Your opinion of the women who have abortions says far more about you than it does about them.


----------



## buttercup (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> It is you who are wrong on every level. All you talk about are the rights of the fetus. It doesn’t have rights. It doesn’t have opinions. It’s not a person.



ALL innocent human beings have the right to not be murdered or aggressed against. The pre-born is a human being, that is a scientific fact that your indoctrinated mind keeps ignoring.



> There are many more reasons to have sex that have nothing to do with procreation or “fun” and much to do with our good health and well being.



Straw man, I never claimed that.  Obviously there are more reasons to have sex than procreation. But you can't completely separate sex from its life giving potential, which is precisely what you cultural Marxist proaborts have been trying to do.  Your entire philosophy is based on lies, that is why it is a failure. That is why so many young people end up either pregnant, or with STDs, or with emotional damage, confusion, etc. That is why I said that an intellectually honest person would be willing to re-examine their views, but  you are so blind and indoctrinated that you see nothing wrong with abortion.



> A healthy sex life is important to both physical and mental health and well being. It strengthens the relationship and bonds between a couple.



Straw man, I never claimed otherwise. In fact, I probably believe that stronger than you do. So you are either being dense by not comprehending my points, or dishonest by trying to change what I'm saying in order to win an argument. Either way, you fail debating 101.



> Look at the abortion statistics. Poor women are getting abortions.  Poor women who are in a relationship and already have at least one child.
> 
> It’s not the free living party girls, or teenagers. It’s adult women who can’t afford to lose their jobs because they’re pregnant.
> 
> The right rejects this image over and over and tries to sell the idea that the abortion rate is fueled by hedonism when in reality is it fueled by Republican policies towards the working poor.



I have seen the abortion statistics. Obviously it's not all one or the other. It doesn't matter though, you are still teaching people lies which result in unwanted pregnancies and numerous other problems...whether it's a poor adult woman, or a naïve girl.


----------



## buttercup (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> having an abortion is taking responsibility.



You just lost all credibility. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that no one could be foolish enough to actually believe that. But apparently my initial feeling was right, it _is _what you believe. How very sad and blind.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> Who determines what is right or wrong? You? You do not appear to be exceptionally qualified for this task.



Nope, not me. Nor you. Those things were determined thousands of years ago when the first human societies were formed.


----------



## Rambunctious (Sep 10, 2018)

Penelope said:


> What am I misinformed about?


When life begins....your thinking is stuck in the 80's....


----------



## Correll (Sep 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> buttercup said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...




As abortions are regulated, by laws crafted though  the democratic political process, it is deluded to claim the men, who vote, do not have a say.


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > Who determines what is right or wrong? You? You do not appear to be exceptionally qualified for this task.
> ...



And I'm sure that everyone had a say. Yeah. Right. There is a bridge in Brooklyn that I can sell to you cheap. 

Remember that these things come down to us only from males, and even then, only from the ones that were literate, not all. Women were kept illiterate, and, therefore, women's input, thoughts, philosophies, ideas, did not come down to us in posterity. Their intellectual input was neither encouraged nor preserved. Most times, their input was discouraged or punished, within Western cultures, and in other cultures, as well.

You can't slice humanity in half, and then claim that conclusions of your half are somehow "authentic" conclusions that come down from us from the ancients. They aren't.

Even in fairly "modern" times, with the European settlement of North America, males rejected any input from female persons on religious questions. Here is only one single instance out of many of this, regarding Anne Hutchinson, a religious leader living in the colony of Massachusett:

Anne Hutchinson | American religious leader

and then the hanging of Mary Dyer on Boston Common:

Mary Dyer - Wikipedia

For the crime of being a Christian who was a member and leader of the Society of Friends (Quakers).

I won't even go back to Hatsheput in ancient Egypt. The Gnostics. Boadicea leading the Icenae in standing up to the Romans in Britain. 

What happened to the ancient "wise women" in European lands? Besides being burned to death?

Where are the female leaders and philosophers in the modern "Christian" churches?

At least some indigenous peoples, in North America and elsewhere, honor the wisdom of their grandmothers, mothers, and wives, and sisters. 

You cannot reject sneer people out of society just because you have a penis.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 10, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> You cannot reject sneer people out of society just because you have a penis.



Not only can we/I, but many of us do. Each gender has its lace in Society. Always have and always will... whether people accept that or not.


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > You cannot reject sneer people out of society just because you have a penis.
> ...





Anathema said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > You cannot reject sneer people out of society just because you have a penis.
> ...


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > You cannot reject sneer people out of society just because you have a penis.
> ...



Why do you think that you are entitled to this? Is It your penis?


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



Ignorant how?

All you have for your argument is to throw words at me. Telling me that my argument is bad because... because... because you don't like it. 

So you're telling me that animals are considered less by God because you don't want to eat unborn animals?

The point here is you used the word "innocent", and cows are innocent and yet you have no problem killing them. So, your argument is contradictory. 

Do you want to kill innocent life or not?


----------



## gipper (Sep 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Oh stop with your stupidity.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > ]Ah yes, don't question people no matter how wrong they are.
> ...



Traditions exist because people don't have anything better to replace them with. In the modern world, as we get more intelligent, we're able to replace rubbish traditions with better things.

You're saying that we should continue to do stupid stuff simply because our under-educated ancestors did.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

gipper said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



And that's all you've got, isn't it? 

You can't argue, you can just tell people that they're being stupid. 

Which means you lost.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 10, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Your way is a quick fix that leads to future problems.
> ...



...right up until the moment your daughter pours a stock pot of boiling water over you while you sleep, or spikes your dinner with rat poison.


----------



## MisterBeale (Sep 10, 2018)

sparky said:


> round & round it goes.....


Yup. . . . 

We probably made a mistake letting the broads come out of the kitchen and vote. . .  


Nothin' but down hill since then.  Hell, this wouldn't even be an issue if they couldn't vote I suspect.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 10, 2018)

MisterBeale said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> > round & round it goes.....
> ...



Yeah, freedom's hard, having to consider all people is just a pain in the ass, if I just have to worry about what I want, then life is simpler.


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 11, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > It is you who are wrong on every level. All you talk about are the rights of the fetus. It doesn’t have rights. It doesn’t have opinions. It’s not a person.
> ...



What lies are being taught? Teaching people while they are young to recognize their sexuality, how to understand it and handle the feelings that are involved, including teaching them what technology is available to prevent pregnancy until they are ready and willing to be parents, is not lying. I hope that doing so is not part of your assertion that people are being lied to. 

Enforcing a program of denial about these topics and refusing to educate the young IS lying.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> The "place" that both halves of human society is TOGETHER building a civilized society. in bed and out. Why are you so in love with the fact that you have a penis and another person has a vagina and a uterus? What's the fear?
> 
> Remember that you can from the body of of female and she gave her blood and pain so that you might come into the world. Your disrespect and honor to her and her experience in having you is your own, and it is disgusting.



Our place is together, but it is not the same. A coin cannot be used if it has two heads or tails. It must have a head and a tail for the coin to be considered correct. Likewise, we must have Men and women together. No Feminists. No man-children. 1 Man and 1 woman.

Her place was to give birth to children. She is far happier about being a mother than any of her jobs, as she should be.  I embrace women like her, rather than the Feminists most of my female classmates are.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> Why do you think that you are entitled to this? Is It your penis?



Tradition. The biology and psychological/emotional makeup of the genders, basic common sense and logic. All of those things and more; but not a particular reproductive organ.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Traditions exist because people don't have anything better to replace them with. In the modern world, as we get more intelligent, we're able to replace rubbish traditions with better things.
> 
> You're saying that we should continue to do stupid stuff simply because our under-educated ancestors did.



I am saying that Traditions need to trump technology when the technology creates a situation contrary to Traditional Mirals and Values. It’s that plain and simple. That’s what I was taught and what I believe, and what I pass on to others.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> ...right up until the moment your daughter pours a stock pot of boiling water over you while you sleep, or spikes your dinner with rat poison.



When they are taught properly and not exposed to Lefyist/Feminist/Progressive crap like the Public Schools and the media that is not very likely to happen. 

I can say that with the authority of someone with a sister in law and nieces raised properly who do not resent their Husband, Father, or other Male figures.


----------



## gtopa1 (Sep 11, 2018)

Penelope said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool
> ...



A pathetic one? Does it feel liberating when a woman kills her unborn baby? 

Greg


----------



## Penelope (Sep 11, 2018)

gtopa1 said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...



Men can and should take responsibility for not spreading STD's if they want sex;  and for not getting the woman pg. Its time to make men take responsibility. If a man gets a woman pg, his rights to her body stop there.


----------



## sparky (Sep 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Yeah, freedom's hard, having to consider all people is just a pain in the ass, if I just have to worry about what I want, then life is simpler.



But one is not _free_ in a symbiant relationship, one is obligant to the other

That is the way we are designed.

And so, it really boils down to those who wish to _buck the system

~S~_


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Penelope said:


> ... If a man gets a woman pg, his rights to her body stop there.



Then her rights to his wallet need to end there as well. It took two people to create the child. If one is to be removed from the decision making process  they need to be removed from the responsibilities as well.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > ... If a man gets a woman pg, his rights to her body stop there.
> ...



No , this is not about abortion, its about men taking responsibility for their actions, its about time. Why should a women take hormones into her body when a man should don a condom to prevent the spread of STD's.  I feel strongly about this. 

If men took responsibility you'd see abortions go way down and so would the spread of STD's.

Also its healthier for a young woman not to take hormones.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Penelope said:


> No , this is not about abortion, its about men taking responsibility for their actions, its about time. Why should a women take hormones into her body when a man should don a condom to prevent the spread of STD's.  I feel strongly about this..



She shouldn’t be taking hormones. She/they also shouldn’t be having sex until they’re in a committed relationship with a path to monogamy and marriage and they’re both ready to have children.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > Who determines what is right or wrong? You? You do not appear to be exceptionally qualified for this task.
> ...



The first human societies had no prohibition on abortion.


----------



## bodecea (Sep 11, 2018)

Missourian said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...


She does...during the 9 months that the fetus is inside HER body.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > The "place" that both halves of human society is TOGETHER building a civilized society. in bed and out. Why are you so in love with the fact that you have a penis and another person has a vagina and a uterus? What's the fear?
> ...



It’s all about YOU in your world. You’ve bought into your cave man bullshit. 6000 years of education and enlightenment have just passed you by completely.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 11, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Lysistrata said:
> ...



Typical older male and some young ones.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 11, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > It is you who are wrong on every level. All you talk about are the rights of the fetus. It doesn’t have rights. It doesn’t have opinions. It’s not a person.
> ...



You’re the one who is lying, twisting and deflecting from the true intent of your “theories”. Your goal is to strip women of the right of free will which God gave them. 


You don’t care about “innocent babies” at all. If you did, you’d be in favour of social programs to help mothers carry through their pregnancies.

The United States has the highest abortion rate and the highest rate of maternal death in child birth of any first world country. 

Republican policies are not only anti-family, they are extremely hostile to women and children and directly drive the high rate of abortion and maternal death in childbirth for American women. 

Your only solution towards reducing abortions in the US is to restrict a woman’s access to abortion. 

You could support and enact policies favourable to working women and parents, but you won’t. Because the goal of the right wing mindset is to punish women for having sex. 

The misogyny in your weasel worded posts is sickening. That you want to justify your hatred of women by claiming it’s all about innocent lives is laughable. 

If you cared about innocent lives, you’d support policies to help poor working families. Not cut off the health care subsidies or allow employers to fire pregnant women at will. 

Like every other First World nation, sex education would be mandatory so teenagers would at least know who their bodies function and know how to maintain good reproductive health. 

And employers’ health care would be required to cover all reproductive decisions made by the EMPLOYEES, not their bosses. If health care is part of your employment package, it is part of YOUR wages and employers should not have a say in what YOUR health care coverage provides. 

Again, the USA is the only first world nation that allows employers to determine basic health care insurance for their employees, based on the religious beliefs of the employer. Madness.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Traditions exist because people don't have anything better to replace them with. In the modern world, as we get more intelligent, we're able to replace rubbish traditions with better things.
> ...



Have you ever thought that maybe the traditional values are not the best values? 

You're stuck in tradition too much. There's a place for tradition, and there's a time when tradition has to make way because people have found something better.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 11, 2018)

sparky said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, freedom's hard, having to consider all people is just a pain in the ass, if I just have to worry about what I want, then life is simpler.
> ...



Problem is, people ignore their obligations, which causes the problems.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> It’s all about YOU in your world. You’ve bought into your cave man bullshit. 6000 years of education and enlightenment have just passed you by completely.



Meanwhile you’ve thrown 6000 years of Morality and Values out the window. Keep your education. I’ll keep my Soul. Thank you very much.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Have you ever thought that maybe the traditional values are not the best values?
> 
> You're stuck in tradition too much. There's a place for tradition, and there's a time when tradition has to make way because people have found something better.



Based on what I was taught, what I’ve experienced in life and where those things have led my beliefs; in my mind Traditional Values are the ONLY Values. Everything else is garbage designed to lead people astray and into improper ways of life.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever thought that maybe the traditional values are not the best values?
> ...



Today I read about some Egyptian man working in Saudi Arabia who was arrested for having lunch with a woman while at work. 

Tradition. Saudi tradition. The woman was covered head to toe, only her eyes sticking out of the letter box. Tradition. Complete and utter bullshit tradition that makes no sense to me. 

"improper ways of life"? Am I a robot? Was I born to be the tool for someone else to live the good life while I suffer? No. Fuck that shit. 

People have taken more control of their lives, and got rid of the traditions that forced them to be slaves to the system.

That doesn't mean we need to be like South Africa with a ridiculously higher murder rate and fear in the streets. There can be a balance. But your way just sucks so much balls it's ridiculous.

You'd probably be happy in Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 11, 2018)

Don’t you think it’s ironic that the party who preaches against interpreting the Constitution any other way than they way the Founders intended, has passed laws which violate women’s rights to make her own decions about whether or not to have a baby?  This Party has repeated subjected women seeking an abortion to unnecessary coercion by the government, which adds hundreds to her costs in obtaining a legal medical procedure.


Anathema said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > It’s all about YOU in your world. You’ve bought into your cave man bullshit. 6000 years of education and enlightenment have just passed you by completely.
> ...



Bullshit. Prohibitions on abortions are a very recent invention. And they are promoted by people who, while professing concern for the “lost innocents”, are doing nothing to eliminate the root causes of abortion, and much to exacerbate them.

Controlling abortion occurs in societies where men fear women’s sexuality. You and your kind are all about control. You believe in authoritarianism, and putting a woman who disagrees with you “into the ground”.

You should have your voting rights revoked for your extreme animosity towards the Constitution by which your country is governed.

Inside you strut around like a Banty rooster all puffed up and crowing about your make privilege. I’ll bet people laugh at you behind your back everywhere you go little man.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> People have taken more control of their lives, and got rid of the traditions that forced them to be slaves to the system.
> 
> That doesn't mean we need to be like South Africa with a ridiculously higher murder rate and fear in the streets. There can be a balance. But your way just sucks so much balls it's ridiculous.
> 
> You'd probably be happy in Saudi Arabia.



Life is not about pleasure it enjoyment. It’s about Right and Wrong.

I’ve looked at SA several times. Unfortunately you must be a Muslim to get citizenship and I don’t believe in organized religion.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Bullshit. Prohibitions on abortions are a very recent invention. And they are promoted by people who, while professing concern for the “lost innocents”, are doing nothing to eliminate the root causes of abortion, and much to exacerbate them.
> 
> Controlling abortion occurs in societies where men fear women’s sexuality. You and your kind are all about control. You believe in authoritarianism, and putting a woman who disagrees with you “into the ground”.
> 
> ...



Prohibitions weren’t necessary until people developed means to kill fetuses. Another strike against science. 

I don’t fear women in any way. I am concerned about Feminists destroying Society. 

I rarely find anyone worth voting for, so it’s really not a big deal whether I can vote or not.

I really don’t care what you or anyone else think of me,  my physical appearance has saved me from having to deal with most of society, so getting heckled is nothing new or alarming for me.


----------



## Dragonlady (Sep 11, 2018)

The “traditional value” is that women have been free since prehistoric time


Anathema said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit. Prohibitions on abortions are a very recent invention. And they are promoted by people who, while professing concern for the “lost innocents”, are doing nothing to eliminate the root causes of abortion, and much to exacerbate them.
> ...



The “means to kill fetuses” has existed since cave man days. Women used aborificant plants to end pregnancies before writing was invented. Midwives in the Middle Ages, also performed abortions.

Abortion was legal in the USA until women started advocating for voting rights. Abortion laws were punishment for uppity women who demanded the right to vote. 

From the moment abortion laws were introduced, these laws were intended to limit women’s equality and their own personal security. 

You keep saying the traditional values are best, except when it comes to abortion. Then you say we’re throwing out 6000 years or morality. 

No, what we’re throwing out by eliminating abortion laws is 150 years of misogyny.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> From the moment abortion laws were introduced, these laws were intended to limit women’s equality and their own personal security.
> 
> You keep saying the traditional values are best, except when it comes to abortion. Then you say we’re throwing out 6000 years or morality.
> 
> No, what we’re throwing out by eliminating abortion laws is 150 years of misogyny.



Ok, I probably should have said “the means for safe abortions”. Until recently the mother’s life was often as at risk as the child’s... as it should be.

Women need to deal with the consequences of willingly spreading their legs. It’s thst simple. Always has and always will be.


----------



## bodecea (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Dragonlady said:
> 
> 
> > From the moment abortion laws were introduced, these laws were intended to limit women’s equality and their own personal security.
> ...


But men don't have to deal with the consequences of unzipping their pants?


----------



## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

bodecea said:


> But men don't have to deal with the consequences of unzipping their pants?



That depends... Is Ge going to be given an equal share of the decision making process regarding the child over the next 19 years? If so, yes. If not, no. 

As a college associate of mine liked to say... “A woman can have sex any time she wants. Men have to convince a woman to have sex with him. With the power comes the responsibility.”


----------



## Skylar (Sep 11, 2018)

martybegan said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > all the male has to do is control his sperm...sadly men dont care for this answer......when you release  your sperm to a woman ..she now owns it...why dont men take responsibility for their sperm?
> ...



Because his responsibilty is to the child. Not the mother. If the child exists, the obligation to the child exists. 

With that obligation for mother and father always being equal. Either they both of that obligation, nor neither do.


----------



## buttercup (Sep 11, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> You’re the one who is lying, twisting and deflecting from the true intent of your “theories”. Your goal is to strip women of the right of free will which God gave them.
> 
> 
> You don’t care about “innocent babies” at all. If you did, you’d be in favour of social programs to help mothers carry through their pregnancies.
> ...



God never gave us the right to kill innocent human beings, and it is extremely twisted and demonic that you actually seem to believe that. 

I'm not going to go through that long rant chock full of false accusations, logical fallacies and deflections. Like most left-wingers, you just can't fathom that people can actually care about other people without being for socialism. Did it ever occur to you that there are *other* ways to help people, apart from your socialist policies?  You have zero idea what I have done for other people, and if I told you, you would be embarrassed by your presumptuous accusations.  But that has nothing to do with abortion anyway, so it's just another red herring, since you can't argue this issue in a  genuine way. Because you have no argument. So all you do is throw out at fallacies, false accusations, and distractions.

In fact, it's getting quite boring for me, so please get back to me when you can debate this without trying to change the subject and go off on rants.


----------



## evenflow1969 (Sep 11, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> Men have rights, but they exercise them at an earlier time in the relationship, when they decide to have sex or not with a particular woman. The argument that men ought to have "equal rights" 50/50 when conception has already occurred fails to recognize that it is the woman who is in possession of the fertilized egg, zygote, whatever stage it's in, and he cannot exercise such a right without involving the woman and completely canceling out her right. Unfortunately, there is no way in which to transfer the whole operation from the female to the male.


Both man and women decide to have sex. Both enter into it voluntarily but only one of the parties is exempt from the consequences of that action. People argue that the man decided to have sex and are there fore responsible for the out come. The women also chose to have sex but are offered a way out that the man is not offered! How is this fair? If the deciding factor as to trhe mans responsibilty is the decision to have sex makes them responsible why is there a different criterian for the women.


----------



## DOTR (Sep 11, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Once they are born. No I'm not going to "fug off" and I get sick of males telling women what they can and can't do and you telling me I'm a tool. What kind of tool am I?



   An ignorant old bag kind of tool. Look back on your life and remember...you chose it.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 11, 2018)

DOTR said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > SassyIrishLass said:
> ...



Another male that doesn't want to take responsibility.    Pitiful.


----------



## Lysistrata (Sep 11, 2018)

evenflow1969 said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > Men have rights, but they exercise them at an earlier time in the relationship, when they decide to have sex or not with a particular woman. The argument that men ought to have "equal rights" 50/50 when conception has already occurred fails to recognize that it is the woman who is in possession of the fertilized egg, zygote, whatever stage it's in, and he cannot exercise such a right without involving the woman and completely canceling out her right. Unfortunately, there is no way in which to transfer the whole operation from the female to the male.
> ...



Because the woman has the "football." It's in her body, not his. How would you make this "fair"? Is there some way in which the woman can give the man the zygote so that she is not the one who goes through pregnancy and labor and she is no longer involved, and he is the one who suffers the physical effects? You don't even understand the basics of human biology. 

What if the man says he wants the fetus to become a child so she should not have an abortion, and then runs away when it is past time for her to abort the fetus? Is she supposed to go through pregnancy and then give birth and then throw the baby at him? Find him in some bar, hand him the infant, wish him good luck, and then go back to her former life, if it is still there, her health is intact, and she still has a job? At lot of these guys not only expect a woman to carry the fetus they created to term, they also expect the woman to care for the infant, walk the floor with a screaming baby, prepare bottles, change diapers, etc. Are these guys prepared to be a single parent to an infant? Would they have a nursery prepared and care provided when they have to be at work?

BTW: not all sex is consensual. It took a long time for it even to be recognized that a husband might rape his wife.

In any event, this is an issue between the man and the woman. It is NOT an issue for government.


----------



## evenflow1969 (Sep 11, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> evenflow1969 said:
> 
> 
> > Lysistrata said:
> ...


Thank you for pointing out bull shit! Ya, I understand how biology works! I had several children of my own! You still can not change the fact that if you use the same standards for both sexes the moment of commitment toward responsibility in the future is the moment of consent. I chose to have sex there fore I am responsible for the out come. This is what you want to use as the standard for men but not women. How is this fair! Carrying the football? So what billions upon bilions have done it before you. You do not want to get pregnant do not have sex or use birth control! The man is responsible for the future at moment of consent so should the women then!  In cases of non consent or life threatining situations then yes there should be more of a discussion! Any way you put it you want more rights than responsibilties and are willing to f over the other sex to get them!


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## Lysistrata (Sep 11, 2018)

evenflow1969 said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > evenflow1969 said:
> ...


What is it to you if a person does, or does not choose to carry a pregnancy to term?

BTW: birth control methods have a failure rate. Look it up.

You have no personal involvement in this decision.


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## evenflow1969 (Sep 11, 2018)

Lysistrata said:


> evenflow1969 said:
> 
> 
> > Lysistrata said:
> ...


I would have a personal involvment if it were my child being aborted! It takes two to tango for every women who has an abotion there was a father for that kid! This is where empathy comes in. I put myself in the shoes of those who are effected by the occurence and test how I would like to be treated in the same senario! If my moment of truth is at consentual sex and I am no longer in control of my own destiny at this point why should the women be afforded addtional outs to their decisions that I do not get!


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > People have taken more control of their lives, and got rid of the traditions that forced them to be slaves to the system.
> ...



No, life isn't just about right and wrong. But you're welcome to believe it's about whatever you like.


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## Anathema (Sep 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> No, life isn't just about right and wrong. But you're welcome to believe it's about whatever you like.



In the end we’ll see which of us is Right and Which one is Wrong. If I’m Right you’ll be in for some unpleasantly in the afterlife. If you’re Right I wouldn’t want to be in Heaven anyway.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 11, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > No, life isn't just about right and wrong. But you're welcome to believe it's about whatever you like.
> ...



As if heaven exists anyway. 

This is the point, isn't it? We don't know what's "after", so we might as well get through this life in the happiest way possible.


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## Lumpy 1 (Sep 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



In Science, when does a human life begin frigy?

Liberals just don't want to take responsibility for their actions and the death of an innocent human life is insignificant to them.

 Hell, they even want American taxpayers to pay for it... how pathetic is that?


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## DOTR (Sep 11, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Another male that doesn't want to take responsibility.    Pitiful.



  The story of your life penelope.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > strollingbones said:
> ...



The mother can decide to not be responsible for the child, via the abortion. 

Again, if true equality between the sexes is desired, why does a woman have that ability, and not a man?

Do women need some sort of special protection?


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## irosie91 (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



  ^^^^^^^   yes.     Biologically and Socially based on the realities of each


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

irosie91 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



Then how can both be truly equal if one requires special protections?


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## irosie91 (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



equal rights does not require  equal physiology.   There are REALITIES ---both social and physiological


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## deanrd (Sep 12, 2018)

SassyIrishLass said:


> My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool


Do you have the right to tell him to cut off the other ball?


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## irosie91 (Sep 12, 2018)

deanrd said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> > My husband had every right concerning his children...fug off and relax on your tirade over abortion. You look like a tool
> ...


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## Anathema (Sep 12, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> As if heaven exists anyway.
> 
> This is the point, isn't it? We don't know what's "after", so we might as well get through this life in the happiest way possible.



I have seen and experienced enough in this life to make me believe there is a Higher Power and something waiting for us beyond this life. I understand not everyone agrees with that belief, but I do.

If there is nothing beyond this, then I should have killed myself when I was 6 or 7 years old and saved myself the trouble of the last 35+ years.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 12, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > As if heaven exists anyway.
> ...



And most of what you've experienced and believe is what you wanted to see because so many people have told you that this is so. 

Imagine you're an ant, and you see the world from a very limited space, and then you decide you know the forces of the world.


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## Anathema (Sep 12, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> And most of what you've experienced and believe is what you wanted to see because so many people have told you that this is so.



That’s a somewhat fair assessment. Probably not quite as much with me as others, but I totally understand where you’re coming from. 

I’ll reiterate what I said before... if there’s nothing beyond this I’d have been off dying in infancy because pleasure and fun were never my lot in this life.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

irosie91 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



The thing is true equal rights would have to IGNORE physiology unless a carve out in any amendment made to achieve it is included.


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## irosie91 (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



nope------the only issue is how to WORD the law


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

irosie91 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



By wording the law to allow exceptions you give lie to the idea of true equality. 

Mind you I am arguing theoreticals here.


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## irosie91 (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



law is a matter of  "words"      An equal rights law -----any one---male or female
can terminate a pregnancy of his body


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

irosie91 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



That's trying to be cute, and it doesn't work with me.

If sex is removed from the concept of law, then it doesn't matter who possesses the fetus, by logic, both parents should be "legally" able to terminate a pregnancy.


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## irosie91 (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



your sick logic------by your sick logic-----wives should be legally able to
arrange a vasectomy for hubby


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

irosie91 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



No, that isn't the case. 

In a legal sense if you remove sex from the equation, both parties should be able to legally "abort" the child. 

Forcing surgery on someone isn't the same thing.


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## deanrd (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...


It’s way less than going to the trauma of having an unwanted child.


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## deanrd (Sep 12, 2018)

It’s always hilarious to me that Republicans believe they are the honor guard of Americas morals. 

And then look what they elected president.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

deanrd said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



So men don't suffer trauma from having an unwanted child?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 12, 2018)

deanrd said:


> It’s always hilarious to me that Republicans believe they are the honor guard of Americas morals.
> 
> And then look what they elected president.



They? You don’t think Independents voted for DJT?


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## deanrd (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...


Depends on if they even know if there was an unwanted child.


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## deanrd (Sep 12, 2018)

I’ll never understand why Republicans are so adamant to protect the fetus. 


But when it comes to children they say fuk it it’s not my kid. They don’t even want to give the born healthcare or education. They say it’s not my responsibility. 


Then why the fuk are you horning in on other peoples lives telling them what they are  supposed to do if it’s not your responsibility?


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

deanrd said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > deanrd said:
> ...



Which does nothing to change the fact that right now there is a legal imbalance. Women can discard of an unwanted pregnancy, both legally and physically, and men cannot. (legally)


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## deanrd (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...


G I don’t know? Could it be because men don’t get pregnant?


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

deanrd said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > deanrd said:
> ...



But they can be held accountable for it with no legal way out, yet women have a legal way out. 

If we remove sex as a distinction from law, how does that still happen?


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



In which case neither she nor the man are responsible for the child. Their obligation is always equal.



> Again, if true equality between the sexes is desired, why does a woman have that ability, and not a man?



Because he's not carrying the child. If he wishes to carry the child, he gets that choice for his own body. If she's the one carrying the child, she gets to make that choice for her own body



> Do women need some sort of special protection?



From a man MAKING her carry a child or MAKING her abort?

Nope. She is the one that gets to control the use of her own body. Just as the man is the one that gets to control his. 

Their control over their own bodies are equal. Just as their obligation is equal. Either they are both responsible, or neither are.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



The obligation is always equal. If she 'has a legal way out', then he doesn't have any obligation either. If she bears the child, then they are both equally responsible for the child.

What you're proposing is a woman being responsible for every child she bears. But a man having no responsibility for any child he sires.

Laughing.....nope. They both have the same legal obligations. Either both are responsible or neither are. There's a reason your absurd, pseudo-legal proposal that a man never have to take responsibility for any child he sires is rejected by 50 of 50 States.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



There is no legal imbalance. At all times their obligations are equal. Their control over their own bodies are equal. 

What you're demanding is a legal inequality. Where either a woman is responsible for every child she bears but a man never has to take responsibility for any child he sires......OR......a man gets to control the use of his own body AND he gets to control the use of a woman's body. While she gets to control neither his nor her own.

Nope. We're not imposing your absurd legal imbalance. We will continue to hold to equal obligations and equal control over one's own body. Which is both fair and reasonable.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

deanrd said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > deanrd said:
> ...



One would think this was obvious. But apparently we have to hold their hands and walk them through the process of where baby's come from.


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## buttercup (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Nope. She is the one that gets to control the use of her own body.



There are *two* bodies involved, I think that has been stated 100 trillion times, but it just doesn't sink in with you some of you.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

buttercup said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. She is the one that gets to control the use of her own body.
> ...



She has no obligation to let anyone or anything use her body. She can deny its use. 

That's the right to privacy: the right to be left alone to make choices over the use of her own body. No one gets to make that choice for her.

Though old, angry white men *really*, really want to.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



Then she has more rights than he has. If we pass an ERA and sex cannot be a decider in laws, that would not be possible.

When it comes to law, biology should have nothing to do with it, or isn't that what progressives keep telling us?

He isn't in control of his own "body" if he can't get out of parenthood and the woman can.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > deanrd said:
> ...



What I am speculating is that both have legal outs, not just one side. 

If an ERA passes, how do you differentiate between one parent or another?


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## buttercup (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> buttercup said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



We've already been through this.  If that were true, then it would be true throughout the entire pregnancy, for no reason at all except that the woman has the "right to privacy" and bodily autonomy.  So I'll ask you the same thing I asked dragon lady.  Do you believe there's anything wrong with butchering a healthy, full-term baby who is just hours away from delivery, for no reason at all except for that the mother changed her mind?

And please don't answer with "but that never happens."  That is not the point.  If your view holds up logically, then it should hold up even in extreme examples.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > deanrd said:
> ...



How is it equal if a woman can decide not to be a parent regardless of what the man says, but the man doesn't have the same legal ability?


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> deanrd said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



You are confusing biology with legality.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



She has the same rights that he has: the right to control the use of her own body.



> When it comes to law, biology should have nothing to do with it, or isn't that what progressives keep telling us?
> 
> He isn't in control of his own "body" if he can't get out of parenthood and the woman can.



Says you, pretending you know a thing about the law. Again, the legislatures of 50 of 50 states have rejected your pseudo-legal gibberish. What's more likely.....that *every* legislature of *every* state doesn't understnad how the law works....

.....or that you don't.

You're demanding unequal obligation where a woman is responsible for every child she bears but a man never has to take responsibility for any child he sires.

*No. *

Is that it?


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > deanrd said:
> ...



As the laws of 50 of 50 States demonstrate eleganlty....the confusion is yours. As legality sits on one side of this issue exclusively. Not yours.

Every state recognizes that a man and woman have equal obligation for their own children.

As it should be.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



And plenty of legislatures thought Jim Crow laws were just dandy. Appealing to authority isn't going to work here.

The woman can abort each fetus as she see's fit. She still has control.

What you are asking for is equality without equality. With only men being held responsible for their sexuality without escape.

So basically you are admitting women need special protections, right?


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



More appeal to authority, and when and if an ERA amendment passes, if poorly written those laws would become moot.

it's not a question of obligation, its a question of only one having a legal "out" if they don't want a child after sex resulting in a pregnancy.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



No special protections. Merely the *same* protections: control over the use of their own bodies.

You're demanding unequal obligation, where a woman is responsible for every child she bears but a father is not responsible for any child he sires.

Nope. We will continue with equal rights to control of one's own body and equal obligation for one's children.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



No, I am not, you are the one demanding unequal protections. 

The woman can choose not to bear the child. The man, by the OP of this topic, does not have that right.

That is not equal,

Control of one's body has nothing to do with it.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Says the soul that just appealed to the authority of 'legality'. Defined by you of course.

*I'll stick with legality as defined by 50 of 50 States. *As the legislatures are embued by the the people to make law. And you're nobody.

Is this really it? Just your standard sctick of demanding that we ignore the law and every legal principle and accept your personal opinion as the law?

You're quite the one trick pony, Marty.



> it's not a question of obligation, its a question of only one having a legal "out" if they don't want a child after sex resulting in a pregnancy.



Of course its a question of obligation. If the child exists, the obligation exists for both parents. If the child doesn't exist, no obligation exists for either parents.

The obligation is equal. And at no point can the mother saddle the father with an obligation that she doesn't also bear.

Parents are responsible for their children. You're insisting that men should never have to be.

*Nope. *


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Of course you're demanding legal inequality. You're demanding that a woman be responsible for every child she bears but a man never has to take responsibility for any child he fathers.

Nope. Your pseudo-legal gibberish is rejected universally by every state in the Union. And for good reason. As the obligation isn't to the mother....its to the child.

If the child exist, the obligation exists. Your entire nonsense demand is debunked by the simple fact that parents are responsible for their own children.


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



You run to the warm comfort of established law because you an unable to see the actual question and debate.

Sucks to be you. 

You keep going to the point of the child existing, which isn't the argument.

When a man has sex, he has no out if the woman gets pregnant.

When a woman has sex, she as abortion as an out if she gets pregnant. 

So where is the equality in this?


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## martybegan (Sep 12, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



Now you are not making any sense, and you have lost the ability to use the quote function properly.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



In comparison to what? You demanding that YOU define 'legality'?

Sorry, but the moment you cited 'legality', you lost. As the law is firmly on one side of this issue. With every State has rejected your nonsense without exception. 

Is your standard plea that we accept your imagination as the law really all you have?

If so, that was easy.


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Here's the post again, for the cheap seats. 

_Of course you're demanding legal inequality. You're demanding that a woman be responsible for every child she bears but a man never has to take responsibility for any child he fathers.

Nope. Your pseudo-legal gibberish is rejected universally by every state in the Union. And for good reason. As the obligation isn't to the mother....its to the child.

If the child exist, the obligation exists. Your entire nonsense demand is debunked by the simple fact that parents are responsible for their own children._


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

If a man wants to choose whether or not to carry a child.....then let him carry the child.


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## night_son (Sep 12, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.



Penny, do you know who Donatien Alphonse François was? He was one of the first abortion activists of the Western world, who lived from 1740-1814. He believed—and wrote thousands of words about—the inherent, natural right of men to take pleasure from inflicting sexual violence on women. Can you possibly understand, Penny, how his ancient words have trickled down from his era of French History, over the many decades since he wrote them, into American culture of the 1950's, and eventually, into your mind? Old Donatien Alphonse François also believed in abortion as a means of population control, and that mothers should have a right to kill even children who had already been born. This man, Penny, is the man whose savage ideas have deceived you into believing that the killing of the unborn is normal and moral. Further, he is the *MAN* who made you think women have the right do whatever they want while pregnant, to their developing child. No* WOMAN* came up with the idea. No, this man gave you permission to do it, he told you what you could and couldn't do with your own body, and apparently, you have no problem with that. 

And Penny, this man I've spoken about with you above? He is also known by another name. A name which made him very famous and even more infamous to history. His other name, a title really, was* The Marquis de Sade*. You should look up the definitions of_ Sadism; Sadist; Sadistic_. Do any of those definitions describe you?


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## Skylar (Sep 12, 2018)

night_son said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



That entire line of gibberish is predicated on a fallacy: that a woman needs *anyone* to tell her how to use her own body.

She doesn't. She doesn't need anyone to tell her its moral. She doesn't need anyone to come up with justifications for her actions. She can control the use of her own body, by her own will, for her own reasons. And be left alone by the State to make her own choices.

That's the beating heart of the right to privacy....the right to be left alone. And no, they didn't cite the Marquis de Sade when they recognized this fundamental right.

Do you know what the fallacy of origins is? Did you know its also known as the 'genetic fallacy'? You should look it up. Do you realize you're that fallacy's poster child?


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > And most of what you've experienced and believe is what you wanted to see because so many people have told you that this is so.
> ...



Well, each person seems to be set with different aims in life, view different things as important.

Where I see things from is that people should be able to make those decisions for themselves without imposing themselves on others.


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## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Well, each person seems to be set with different aims in life, view different things as important.
> 
> Where I see things from is that people should be able to make those decisions for themselves without imposing themselves on others.



I truly believe there need to be at least limits on how far those choices can go in certain directions. Kinda like those blow up fillers they put in the gutters of bowling alleys for kids - to help them stay on the right path. Otherwise Society collapses on itself, as we’re seeing.


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## Penelope (Sep 13, 2018)

night_son said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



So I take it you do not want to accept responsibility for not getting someone pg nor spreading STD's. Once that female is pg, even if its your wife, you have no say so if she gets an abortion or not.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Well, each person seems to be set with different aims in life, view different things as important.
> ...



Limits are essential. Though how far should those limits go? 

Fascism to Anarchy.... where is the line? People have different views on that. 

But my view is that people should be able to do whatever they like as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of other people.


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## Penelope (Sep 13, 2018)

They are working on a BC shot for men.  That doesn't do anything to prevent the spread of STD's. 

You men can avoid both with a good quality condom.


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## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

Penelope said:


> You men can avoid both with a good quality condom.



Even better we can avoid it all by not having sex with women we are not prepared to have a child with.


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## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Limits are essential. Though how far should those limits go?
> 
> Fascism to Anarchy.... where is the line? People have different views on that.



True. To paraphrase a friend of mine... “My Moral life doesn’t decrease your ability to live an immoral life, but your immoral life does infringe in my ability to live a Moral life.”

That’s the problem.


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## martybegan (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



And as usual you argue the how and not the why. Why can't you proceed on arguing on the merits instead of running to the "safe space" of "the law is the law is the law, fuh fuh fuh"


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## martybegan (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



Again you go past the part we are actually arguing about.


Right now women can have responsibility free sex, but men can't. How does that create equality?


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## martybegan (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> If a man wants to choose whether or not to carry a child.....then let him carry the child.



Again, talking biology not legality.


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## night_son (Sep 13, 2018)

Penelope said:


> night_son said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Actually, Penny we are trying for a little one. I have three nieces: ages 8, 16 and recently, 18. The middle one just got her driver's license (oh shit!), works two jobs, and has bought her own car, and pays for her own car insurance, which just increased dramatically—after a bit of a fender bender at a traffic light. As for STDs, the Army has, over 27 years, shown me images more terrifying of the consequences of, than slides of Landmine Warfare Training, from WW1.  

I do try, Penny. However, and above all else, I respect your opinion—and your right to have and keep said opinion, even if we must agree to disagree.


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## night_son (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> night_son said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Accuses me of being, "No true Scotsman," and then, eats, chutes and leaves. Why can I not smell the gunpowder?


----------



## Penelope (Sep 13, 2018)

night_son said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > night_son said:
> ...



I hope your dream comes true, you and your significant other. That is how children should come into this world.  I should add by mutual consent.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Limits are essential. Though how far should those limits go?
> ...



Why is someone else being immoral, causing you not to be moral?


----------



## Penelope (Sep 13, 2018)

From the Nifla website:
*Decisions, Decisions: Why Women Choosing Life is So Important*
*Decisions are powerful. As rational human beings, we have the gift of free will. What we choose to do with that gift is entirely up to us.* Any day now, the Supreme Court will make a decision in the outcome of National Institute of Family and Life Advocates v. Becerra—a decision that could directly affect the choices women make for their babies. This video explains just how important the NIFLA v. Becerra case is to […]

But congress and the Supreme Courts does not agree with this.

and this :

*NIFLA Celebrates 25 Years Protecting Women’s Choice, Culture of Life*
The National Institute of Family and Life Advocates has worked diligently for twenty-five years – a quarter of a century – to protect the right of pro-life pregnancy centers to operate and empower mothers to choose life. NIFLA’s efforts in federal court against the violations of the free speech rights of such centers is a major focus as we continue the battle for the sanctity of human life in our nation. In NIFLA v. Becerra the […]

----------------------------------------------------------

But the problem is the GOP do not want to give women choice or free will.


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## Penelope (Sep 13, 2018)

This is why men need to become accountable and fess up when they cheat!  And wear quality condoms. 

*HIV Among Women – Facts from the CDC*
Did you know… Approximately 1 in 4 people living with HIV in the United States are women? Most new HIV diagnoses in women are attributed to heterosexual sex? Between 2005 and 2014, the number of new HIV diagnoses among women declined 40%? According to the CDC, “Black/African American and Hispanic/Latina women continue to be disproportionately affected by HIV, compared with women of other races/ethnicities. Of the total estimated number of wome living with diagnosed HIV at the end of […]
HIV Among Women - Facts from the CDC | NIFLA.org

What they don't say on their website is from the website on the CDC site is: 
From 2011 to 2015:


HIV diagnoses among all women declined 16%.
Among African American women, diagnoses declined 20%, among Hispanic/Latina women, diagnoses declined 14%, and *among white women, diagnoses remained stable.*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently AA and Hispanics learn, white women not so much!!


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## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Why is someone else being immoral, causing you not to be moral?



Having to deal with women in the workplace. Having to pay taxes to support wastes of flesh and oxygen who refuse to support themselves. Having to find a bank that still has male tellers to do my banking. Dealing with people who don't respect or embrace the language and culture of this country.

All of these things and much more put me in a position of having to either violate my morals/values or go completely out of my way to conduct even the most basic business and life activities..


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## Skylar (Sep 13, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



As usual I've argued the law and applied reason. Both of which you ignore.

In the real world, obligations are always identical. Either both parents are responsible, or neither are. 

In the wasteland of your imagination, obligations are unequal. Where every woman is responsible for every child she bears while a man is never responsible for any child he sires.

No. That's neither fair nor equal. Which is why your imagination has been rejected by every state legislature in the union. Simply put, parents are responsible for their children.

This simple axiom obliterates your entire silly argument.


----------



## Skylar (Sep 13, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



The obligations to care for one's own children are the heart of the failure of your argument. Its the reason why its been rejected by every state legislature without exception.

That you don't want to discuss this enormous, argument crippling hole in your reasoning doesn't make it disappear. Nor does it limit me in the slightest in pointing it out. Repeatedly.

*You're demanding unequal obligation. *Where a woman is responsible for every child she bears. But a man is never responsible for any child he sires.

Um, no. The obligation is to the child. Parents are responsible for their own children. You insist that with men *exclusively* that a parent shouldn't be responsible for their own child. Which you laughably call 'equality of the sexes'.

No. Unequal obligations are not equal. Men never having to take responsibility for their own children is not 'equality'. The entire premise of your argument is pseudo-legal gibberish.


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## WinterBorn (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Why is someone else being immoral, causing you not to be moral?
> ...



You only do your banking with male tellers??   LMAO!!    You DO realize that females probably handle your money anyway, right?  And that more males than females commit bank fraud and embezzle.


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## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

WinterBorn said:


> You only do your banking with male tellers??   LMAO!!    You DO realize that females probably handle your money anyway, right?  And that more males than females commit bank fraud and embezzle.



I can’t control what happens behind the scenes. If the bank wishes to use an immoral workforce behind the sceens there’s nothing I can do about that. The bank accounts I have are for bill payment only. We keep most of our funds in cash, so there’s not much there to steal or mess with.


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## Skylar (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > You only do your banking with male tellers??   LMAO!!    You DO realize that females probably handle your money anyway, right?  And that more males than females commit bank fraud and embezzle.
> ...



How are women 'immoral' anymore than men?


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## WinterBorn (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > WinterBorn said:
> ...



Right?   Pure delusion.


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## Skylar (Sep 13, 2018)

WinterBorn said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...



These kinds of threads draw misogeny like heat does pus from a wound.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> How are women 'immoral' anymore than men?



The immorality occurs when they engage in activities and work which is not appropriate for women.


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## Skylar (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > How are women 'immoral' anymore than men?
> ...



How is being a teller 'inappropriate'? Or immoral in anyway?


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## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> How is being a teller 'inappropriate'? Or immoral in anyway?



Man’s work. Always has been. Simple as that.


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## Skylar (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > How is being a teller 'inappropriate'? Or immoral in anyway?
> ...



There haven't always been bank tellers. How then could it 'always be' man's work?

Your claims make no sense.


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## Anathema (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> There haven't always been bank tellers. How then could it 'always be' man's work?
> 
> Your claims make no sense.



Since we’ve had these types of job they have been Male dominated. Money changing and banking have been Men’s work for centuries.

We’re also not just talking about banking. Take any job type which has traditionally been Male. I don’t deal with female doctors.


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## Skylar (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > There haven't always been bank tellers. How then could it 'always be' man's work?
> ...



There's nothing intrinsically moral about that. Or immoral. 

You're drawing moral judgments from actions that carry no moral implication. 



> We’re also not just talking about banking. Take any job type which has traditionally been Male. I don’t deal with female doctors.



A female doctor isn't intrinsically immoral either.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Why is someone else being immoral, causing you not to be moral?
> ...


Just so you know: there is a decent chance any magazines you might see at a supermarket in your county were delivered by a woman.


----------



## frigidweirdo (Sep 13, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Why is someone else being immoral, causing you not to be moral?
> ...



Seriously? Dealing with women in the workplace makes you immoral? You're fucked up dude, and offensive. 

You're exactly what you're saying the problem is.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 13, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...


I suspect that had he seen my wife driving a wrecker (a big Ford cabover ramp truck, no less), he might have had an aneurysm on the spot.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> I suspect that had he seen my wife driving a wrecker (a big Ford cabover ramp truck, no less), he might have had an aneurysm on the spot.



No, but I sure as hell wouldn’t have let her tow my car; AAA certified or not.


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

Skylar said:


> ?You're drawing moral judgments from actions that carry no moral implication.



EVERY thought, word and action we make every day has a moral judgement attached to it.


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Seriously? Dealing with women in the workplace makes you immoral? You're fucked up dude, and offensive.



The women being in the workplace is the immoral act. My having to deal with them makes me an accessory to that immoral act.

I honestly don’t care whether you find that fucked up and offensive or not.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously? Dealing with women in the workplace makes you immoral? You're fucked up dude, and offensive.
> ...



No, it's clearly not. A woman and a man are EQUAL under GOD, under NATURE, under MORALITY.

If you can't control your penis, that's not their fault.


----------



## evenflow1969 (Sep 14, 2018)

martybegan said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...


Obortion is surgery!


----------



## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> No, it's clearly not. A woman and a man are EQUAL under GOD, under NATURE, under MORALITY.



Equal but not the same. Sameness is what you seek. A quarter with two heads is worthless. It must have a head and a tail to have value. So too is it with the two genders of humanity. 



frigidweirdo said:


> If you can't control your penis, that's not their fault.



This isn’t about penis’ or vaginas. This is about the basic balance of nature. As we continue to lose womankind/femininity, e will have even more dire effects on human society.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > No, it's clearly not. A woman and a man are EQUAL under GOD, under NATURE, under MORALITY.
> ...



Nobody is the same. Everyone has their own unique personality. That's not a reason to discriminate. 

You talk about losing femininity. However 200 years ago women had to work to survive. Working class people were living a subsistence life. There wasn't time for any of that. 

This femininity is something that has grown up in the last hundred years with the rise of women's freedom. You seem to be one of those people that has nostalgia for a mythical time that never existed.


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> You talk about losing femininity. However 200 years ago women had to work to survive. Working class people were living a subsistence life. There wasn't time for any of that.
> 
> This femininity is something that has grown up in the last hundred years with the rise of women's freedom. You seem to be one of those people that has nostalgia for a mythical time that never existed.



Femininity isn’t about eyeliner, high heels or miniskirts. It’s about knowing, accepting and embracing a woman’s proper place in Society, deferring to the Man in your life and being seen not heard... much like a child should.


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## Skylar (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > You talk about losing femininity. However 200 years ago women had to work to survive. Working class people were living a subsistence life. There wasn't time for any of that.
> ...



With you deciding what the 'property place' is?


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## Skylar (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > ?You're drawing moral judgments from actions that carry no moral implication.
> ...



It really doesn't.  While there certainly are moral actions and immoral actions, the overwhelming majority of human acts and words have no particular moral implications. And there's certainly no moral implication in being a bank teller.

Your entire argument is predicated on imagining moral implications for actions that have none. Being neither moral nor immoral.


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

Skylar said:


> With you deciding what the 'property place' is?



Nope. Those things were determined thousands of years before I was born.


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

Skylar said:


> It really doesn't.  While there certainly are moral actions and immoral actions, the overwhelming majority of human acts and words have no particular moral implications. And there's certainly no moral implication in being a bank teller.
> 
> Your entire argument is predicated on imagining moral implications for actions that have none. Being neither moral nor immoral.



In that we will have to disagree.


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## Skylar (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > With you deciding what the 'property place' is?
> ...



Morality has adapted to technology and circumstances for as long as there have been people. Birth control and technology changed the playing field. Why wouldn't morality change as well?


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## skye (Sep 14, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.




but if the woman tells the man AFTER she told him she was ready to have a child....knowing the man wanted the child....

if after this she decides to have an abortion....

then she has no right anymore

the man has a voice in this....50% of a voice

period.

my personal opinion.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > You talk about losing femininity. However 200 years ago women had to work to survive. Working class people were living a subsistence life. There wasn't time for any of that.
> ...



This "proper place" gets decided by who? By you?

Why should someone be born and be forced into some kind of caste simply because you have a problem?

It's not women who have the problem, it's you. So perhaps it's YOU who should be restricted, and not women. 

The world would be a much better place is women ran it.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > With you deciding what the 'property place' is?
> ...



So there's never, ever been a matriarchal society?


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Morality has adapted to technology and circumstances for as long as there have been people. Birth control and technology changed the playing field. Why wouldn't morality change as well?



Technology is a test for Morality. Just because you can do or make something doesn’t mean you should do it or use it. Just that simple.


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> So there's never, ever been a matriarchal society?



Relatively few, and not generalky the upper echelon of societies over time. There are a few exceptions, as with any data set but not many.


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## Anathema (Sep 14, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> The world would be a much better place is women ran it.



That’s a bit too far. Our conversations are over. You’re going on Ignore.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > So there's never, ever been a matriarchal society?
> ...



Yes, there are a few exceptions. But that doesn't mean it's some kind of natural thing. It just means it happens quite a lot. And most male dominated societies are majorly fucked up, because men can't handle the power.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 14, 2018)

Anathema said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > The world would be a much better place is women ran it.
> ...



That's fine. If you have a problem with this then who the fuck wants to talk to you anyway?


----------



## Penelope (Sep 15, 2018)

skye said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



It up to you,  but it would be a he said and she said, is he going to raise the child that she carried for say 40 wks?  I guess you missed the part where I said the woman can change her mind.  You are entitled to your opinion , just do not make it a law.


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > Morality has adapted to technology and circumstances for as long as there have been people. Birth control and technology changed the playing field. Why wouldn't morality change as well?
> ...



Morality is determined by the people and circumstances. It is adapted to that society and the conditions under which they live. As technology changes those conditions, morality changes to match it. This is a pattern that humanity has followed for thousands of years. 

If the patterns of the past are the authority you wish to cite in establishing morality, _you can't rightly ignore the patterns in the establishment and adaptation of morality. _

As morality has most definitely not been a constant or an absolute. But changed fairly fluidly depending on circumstances. With technology being one of the most driving catalysts for cbanges.


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Slavery happened a lot. And was abolished only a couple of hundred years ago. If patterns in history establish morality, than slavery would be moral.. Even time lines of the decline of slavery and the decline of absolute male domination are historically analogous (give or take half a century).

So using A's logic.....slavery would also have to be moral. Along with religious wars of conquest and some fairly belligerent forms of racism. As those also have long historical pedigrees.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> As morality has most definitely not been a constant or an absolute.



Yes it has. People’s willingness to follow it may have changed, but the Divine has not changed its definition of Morality.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> So using A's logic.....slavery would also have to be moral. Along with religious wars of conquest and some fairly belligerent forms of racism. As those also have long historical pedigrees.



All of which I DO believe are Moral and appropriate.


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > As morality has most definitely not been a constant or an absolute.
> ...



No, it hasn't. Historically, morality has been very, very different across cultures and within the same culture across any significant span of time. Feudal Japan was wildly different than say, Victorian England in terms of morality. And Feudal English morality is very different than modern English morality.

Its a historical fact that morality is variable to circumstances and peoples. So you're ignoring your own standard of history as your authority. Negating that same standard as the basis of a woman's 'proper place'.

Now you're appealing to a different authority. The 'Divine'. Which has enormous holes in it as well. As the 'Divine' is adapted to the circumstances and the people just like morality is. The conception of the Divine, the plurality of the Divine, the will of the Divine, the nature of the Divine. 

All wildly fluid. Even your new appeal to authority demonstrates the same degree of variability as your last.


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > So using A's logic.....slavery would also have to be moral. Along with religious wars of conquest and some fairly belligerent forms of racism. As those also have long historical pedigrees.
> ...



Lets take slavery. What makes you think its moral and appropriate to own another person, and though violence compel them to act as you command? What is your moral justification for treating another human in that manner?


----------



## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Lets take slavery. What makes you think its moral and appropriate to own another person, and though violence compel them to act as you command? What is your moral justification for treating another human in that manner?



Two things....

1’ their inability to provide for or take care of themselves. Whether they’ve sold themselves into skavery because they can’t afford to provide for themselves or been forced into it, proving they can’t defend themselves, it’s proof they aren’t competent to be in charge of themselves. Therefore they don’t qualify as human beings.

2. My wealth/strength and capability to buy them, keep them, and find a fanfic use for their labor


----------



## percysunshine (Sep 15, 2018)

Penelope said:


> abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.



How selfish.

Parents share children.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

[QUOTE="Skylar, post: 20785015, member: 49869"Now you're appealing to a different authority. The 'Divine'. Which has enormous holes in it as well. As the 'Divine' is adapted to the circumstances and the people just like morality is. The conception of the Divine, the plurality of the Divine, the will of the Divine, the nature of the Divine.[/QUOTE]

My view of Morality (I don’t get to define it) has always been based on the Morality I believe was instinctively implanted in our oldest ancestors by the Divine. I refer to it as Universal Morality and its why I don’t believe in organized religion, as that is a bastardization of Morality.


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > Lets take slavery. What makes you think its moral and appropriate to own another person, and though violence compel them to act as you command? What is your moral justification for treating another human in that manner?
> ...



So if any point you over overpowered, for any reason.....you're not a human being?

You're equating weakness with not being a human being....then you cease to be a human being if you're old or sick?

What 'Divine' ever concluded this to be true?


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> My view of Morality (I don’t get to define it) has always been based on the Morality I believe was instinctively implanted in our oldest ancestors by the Divine. I refer to it as Universal Morality and its why I don’t believe in organized religion, as that is a bastardization of Morality.



The problem with your reasoning is that your assessment of 'Universal' has to pass through you. You are the genesis of this moral system. That you appeal to an authority (The Divine) and attribute the implantation of that code to your authority doesn't factually establish anything you believe.

Belief and invention are not objective. But subjective.

This is just as true of you as it would be say, a Muslim that believes that his God demands that he blow himself up and kill other people. That belief may be deeply held. But it isn't objective.

Any moral code with the title 'Universal' would need to be objective. And yours is entirely subjective.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> So if any point you over overpowered, for any reason.....you're not a human being?
> 
> You're equating weakness with not being a human being....then you cease to be a human being if you're old or sick?
> 
> What 'Divine' ever concluded this to be true?



If you cannot defend and provide for yourself, or have family friends who will do those things for you; you have lost your worth/value as a human being. 

Someone once asked me what would happen if I were to ever become unable to support myself. My response - 1 bullet to the head


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > So if any point you over overpowered, for any reason.....you're not a human being?
> ...



Then you lose your value as a human being every time you get sick? Your value as a human being diminishes as you age? Or will you use technology like say, a knife or a gun to increase your capacity to defend yourself.....and in turn, increase your value as a human being?

And, if technology can increase your value as a human being, *why couldn't it also elevate women in the exact same way?* After all, you vs a woman with a gun has a clear victor in terms of your 'universal morality'.

Not you. 

If she has technology to gain power over you, per your own reasoning you cease to be a human. And thus deserve whatever she does to you.


----------



## Yousaidwhat (Sep 15, 2018)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > No I'm not going to "fug off" and I get sick of males telling women what they can and can't do
> ...


Smile...

Nod...

Yes dear, is the response...

Walk away....

Turn the corner...

Laugh quietly...

They have been "trying" to tell us what to do...

The Mrs. has found that it hasn't worked for years.

She has learned to suggest and then compromise.


----------



## Penelope (Sep 15, 2018)

percysunshine said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



Once the fetus is born its called an infant and hopefully both the father and mother want the child.


----------



## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> The problem with your reasoning is that your assessment of 'Universal' has to pass through you. You are the genesis of this moral system. That you appeal to an authority (The Divine) and attribute the implantation of that code to your authority doesn't factually establish anything you believe...



I’ll give you the Readers Digest of how I came to this belief - 

I grew up in a very strict conservative Christian home, from a pair of devout families. In 2001, I lost my father, the most truly good and devout person I’d ever known, just as he was about to being able to live life for himself. Lost to Cancer he probably got in Vietnam. ON HUS 54th BIRTHDAY. 

This drove me away from the church and into a spiritual search that took almost theee years and pretty much every religion and philosophy you could imagine. Among those things was the book “When bad things happen to good people”.

That book opened my eyes to something... an Omnipotent God cannot also be a Good/Just one if one believes a Man can be good or Just.  Then I looked back into history and mythology and realized our ancestors realized that thousands of years ago. 

The more I looked the more things made sense. This life is a test of the Soul. A test to see if we will take the easy road or the hard one. With the fate of our Soul hanging in the balance and happiness/pleasure being the enemy.


----------



## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with your reasoning is that your assessment of 'Universal' has to pass through you. You are the genesis of this moral system. That you appeal to an authority (The Divine) and attribute the implantation of that code to your authority doesn't factually establish anything you believe...
> ...



See, the reason I'm not dismissing your views as just useless idiocy as some here are is that I get a sense that you're a true believer. That you genuinely have this moral code. You're not trolling, you're expressing what you actually think.

I'm trying to show you that the standards you've applied (history for example) and the basis of humanity that you've applied (strength) change over time. And change with technology. And change in a way that justify by your own moral code, the humanity and freedom of women.

And for you as well. As I believe that even by your own standards, technology can merit the strength that your assessment of humanity is based upon. For you, in your older life. And for women at any time.


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## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Then you lose your value as a human being every time you get sick? Your value as a human being diminishes as you age? Or will you use technology like say, a knife or a gun to increase your capacity to defend yourself.....and in turn, increase your value as a human being?
> 
> 
> QUOTE="Skylar, post: 20785221, member: 49869"]And, if technology can increase your value as a human being, *why couldn't it also elevate women in the exact same way?...* '.
> .



Yes, any time your ability to add to Society is reduced you lose value. Any time you require more than average resources, it’s the same. Using appropriate technology is one thing. That’s why women shouldn’t be using guns or voting machines - voting and defense aren’t wonens okacecin Society.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 15, 2018)

percysunshine said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...


Nonsense.

It’s not ‘selfish’ at all.

Parents share children, not an embryo/fetus.


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## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > Then you lose your value as a human being every time you get sick? Your value as a human being diminishes as you age? Or will you use technology like say, a knife or a gun to increase your capacity to defend yourself.....and in turn, increase your value as a human being?
> ...



If ability is the benchmark of value...an mechanization amplifies ability, then by your own logic mechanization would amplify value.

If a man is dragging a plow alone, then his own strength and stamina defines his ability to plow a field. And there would likely be a significant difference between his ability and say, a females....in this specific task. But if he's using an animal like an ox or a horse, these differences diminish dramatically. And if he's using a tractor, they essentially vanish all together.

As in terms of ability, a woman on a tractor will dust a man dragging a plow anyday. And by your standards, a woman on a tractor would have more value than a man dragging a plow.

And technology does this across so many fields.



> Any time you require more than average resources, it’s the same. Using appropriate technology is one thing. That’s why women shouldn’t be using guns or voting machines - voting and defense aren’t wonens okacecin Society.



Your argument is self contradictory. As you have used ability for your basis of role. But then ignored how technology can amplify ability.....for no particular reason. And insisted that the roles must remain the same, 'because'. 

If technology can amplify a man's ability, it can amplify a woman's. And if ability equates to value, then mechanization can increase a woman's value as well. And if ability is the basis of roles and mechanization largely equalizes ability, then roles too should be equalized. 

And have. What we've seen is exactly what you've described in terms of ability and value. Women's value in society has increased as mechanization has reduced the value of any physical advantage men have in terms of strength and stamina. As men and women can exert the same ability using mechanization.

With a man on a tractor and a woman on a tractor doing the same work. Having the same ability. And thus, the same value.


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## Skylar (Sep 15, 2018)

And this applies to you too, A. You're likely in your mid 70s or 80s, given your dad's age when he died. 

You're not less of a human due to your diminished ability, even by your own standard. As you can use technology to amplify your abilities. A 20 year old buck vs you and a shot gun will not be an even fight. You'll almost certainly win. Thus, by your own standards technology allows you to retain your humanity.

My argument from there is simple: It does the exact same thing for women. It amplifies their ability just as it amplifies  yours. And consequently, amplifies their value. 

With their role defined by their ability. And their ability now defined by mechanization.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > Then you lose your value as a human being every time you get sick? Your value as a human being diminishes as you age? Or will you use technology like say, a knife or a gun to increase your capacity to defend yourself.....and in turn, increase your value as a human being?
> ...


Fortunately we have the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to safeguard the rights of women from such misogynistic dross.


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## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> I'm trying to show you that the standards you've applied (history for example) and the basis of humanity that you've applied (strength) change over time. And change with technology. And change in a way that justify by your own moral code, the humanity and freedom of women.
> 
> And for you as well. As I believe that even by your own standards, technology can merit the strength that your assessment of humanity is based upon. For you, in your older life. And for women at any time.



History doesn’t change. Human nature shouldn’t change. More importantly this is about what we should be doing more than what we can do.  If you really require the technology to give you value, you should accept  the  reality and move on.


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## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> With a man on a tractor and a woman on a tractor doing the same work. Having the same ability. And thus, the same value.



It’s not her place to bectilling the field by hand, byboxen ir by tractor. If the tractor causes him to have too much free time it needs to be removed; just like the washing machine and vacuum cleaner for her.


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## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> And this applies to you too, A. You're likely in your mid 70s or 80s, given your dad's age when he died..



My father was born in 1947. I was born in ‘74. He died of brain cancer on his 54th birthday - 8/22/2001.


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 15, 2018)

Skylar said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...



Oh, he probably does think slavery is moral.


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## sparky (Sep 15, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with your reasoning is that your assessment of 'Universal' has to pass through you. You are the genesis of this moral system. That you appeal to an authority (The Divine) and attribute the implantation of that code to your authority doesn't factually establish anything you believe...
> ...



Life isn't fair Anathema, you can say it's a test, or a facade 

either way it will never be some merticrocy

i've got almost 20 yrs on you, spent 30 of it in the back of an ambulance either cursing or beggin God , crying tears for people who's names i did not even know

what did i learn?

live is short

too short for hate, and all those emotions that live in yer head & don't pay rent

~S~


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## Anathema (Sep 15, 2018)

sparky said:


> i've got almost 20 yrs on you, spent 30 of it in the back of an ambulance either cursing or beggin God , crying tears for people who's names i did not even know
> 
> what did i learn? live is short
> 
> too short for hate, and all those emotions that live in yer head & don't pay rent



I’m well aware life isn’t fair and was never intended to be. I learned that, and got a good look at the darkness in people’s hearts early in life due to my birth defect. 

Life may be short but sometimes it seems like you’re waiting forever for it to just be over because there is no more point to it. 

I believe that life is about Right and Wrong. Nothing more. All we can hope o do is live life well enough to get another shot at it until we’ve learned enough to get it right one of these times.


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## skye (Sep 15, 2018)

Men only have rights when it comes to the woman being pregnant

He is 50%   the rights ...he will feed and dress  the baby

He is the father!

GOD Bless the father!


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## talksalot (Sep 16, 2018)

Missourian said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > abortions.  No rights even if the male is married to the female and wants a baby.   A women should make it known to men that she is not ready or doesn't' want kids before marriage and a women has a choice to change her mind anytime she wants.
> ...



Men should be responsible for the children if they are married to their mother.  If they are not married, then, no.


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## Penelope (Sep 16, 2018)

talksalot said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Men must pay child support.


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## sparky (Sep 16, 2018)

You have the right to keep in in yer pants


Anytime it appears it may be used against you in a court of law.


You have the right to change diapers


If you cannot afford diapers, the courts will see to it that you do


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## Jarlaxle (Sep 16, 2018)

Anathema said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > I'm trying to show you that the standards you've applied (history for example) and the basis of humanity that you've applied (strength) change over time. And change with technology. And change in a way that justify by your own moral code, the humanity and freedom of women.
> ...


Says the dude who depends-entirely-on modern medical care for survival. Just BATHE in the hypocrisy.


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