7 Dec. 1941

[BlackAsCoal]

We also knew there wasn't a damn thing we could do to stop it.

We could have warned people and we could have stopped the incoming attack planes .. not leave ours on the ground like sitting ducks.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

We had already cracked the Japanese code and knew exactly where they were going to attack.

We sank four Japanese minisubs in and around Pearl Harvor Bay just an hour or so before the attack began.

The range on those minisubs was about 60 miles .. so unless we believed Japan lie 60 miles off the coast of Pearl Harbor, we knew there were large ships close that brought them there.

We knew my brother .. and we allowed it to happen.

No one should be surprised that we would allow innocent people to die for the business of war. We have an entire history of it.

You are mistaken. We did not crack all the codes and even those we cracked were fragmentary. Hell the only reason we finally decided that Midway was a target was because in one dispatch they discussed the target had lost its water purification plant. Even then it was a calculated risk.

Pearl Harbor was not needed for war at all. There was absolutely no sane reason to allow the destruction of our Pacific Fleet.

As for the mini subs, none were actually captured and so no conclusive proof was available. Further mini subs do not lead one to suspect Air Craft carriers in waters they could not possibly be in.

You are aware the Japanese did not have refuelers like we did? They had a hell of a time refueling at sea. And Air Craft carriers were considered secondary platforms. The US still bought into the concept they were scout platforms with limited offensive ability. The Battleship was STILL the Queen of the battle.

After Pearl Harbor it was TRULY feared the Japanese could invade the West Coast and take Hawaii if they so chose.

It makes for a nice conspiracy but has no basis in fact. FDR would never have allowed our entire pacific fleet to be attacked just to go to war. They knew the diplomatic codes and knew Japan was declaring War the morning it did. THAT alone was all that was needed. If we had known Pearl was the target we would have alerted them before the attack and gotten their fleet along with the declaration of War.

The attack Fleet was sent WEEKS before the attack and was sent using land based message protocols. Once at Sea they went silent. All we knew was the Carrier Fleet and the battle fleet were at sea. NOT where.

 

[dilloduck]

We could have warned people and we could have stopped the incoming attack planes .. not leave ours on the ground like sitting ducks.

It wouldn't have mattered. Whats the difference between being shot out of the sky or blown up in a hangar ? Only one I can think of is that we may have saved some pilots.

 

[Againsheila]

Anyone that claims the US knew Pearl harbor would be attacked is a fool. They should have been more vigalant, but there was absolutely no reason to suspect that Japan would be able to slip her entire Aircraft carrier fleet into range and do what they did.

In 1941 Carriers were still not considered decisive platforms. The belief had begun to change of course but it was still believed the Battleship ruled the waves. In fact all our plans involved rallying the battleships to the Philippines in one form or another. And the Japanese went AFTER our battleships.

Kimmel DID NOT ignore the warnings, he simply did not realize 6 carriers were bearing down on him. He and Short believed the threat was sabatoge and so stacked up the aircraft and ships in a manner that facilitated the actual attack.

Hell even Mac Arthur fell prey to it the next day in the Philippines. Most of his air force was caught on the ground as well, even AFTER he knew we were at war.

The only REAL warning was the mini subs that tried to enter the harbor the day before, and no one associated that with carriers. Further the single Radar that was in use was expermental and only used at night. Most of the staff did not trust it. The off going crew saw approaching aircraft but the report just made those receiving it think it was some B-17's due that morning. By the way they arrived in the middle of the attack.

If the Japanese had understood just how effective their carriers were they would have launched at least two more attacks. But the Admiral in charge was old school and ran away.

Some of you need to learn some REAL history outside the conspiracy rooms.

Halsey seems to have been the only one to go the extra mile per orders. His carrier was on a war footing at sea with orders to attack any Japanese it found. The second carrier was loaded with extra fighters destined for Wake Island. Its command decided to turn back after the attack rather then finish the mission.

My uncle was a sailor during Pearl Harbor. He said they had them opening all the hatches on the ships the night before the attack. They had never had such an order before or after in all his years of service. I was only going with what my uncle said. Call me a fool, but I'll believe my uncle over a stranger any time.

 

[sky dancer]

When this anniversary rolls around I'm reminded of the seniors I served at a housing project in Portland. The place was owned by the Japanese and they offered it as an elder place for all.

WWII was fresh in the minds of these folks even after so many years. Side by side lived people who lived in internment camps in the US, had lost loved ones in Hiroshima and Nagasaki along with those who had fought or lost loved ones at Pearl Harbor and in the Pacific.

Very challenging situation for both.

When you see how many years ago this war was, and how long it is that people are affected by war, it makes one wish for an end to war once and for all.

 

[Old Rocks]

Anyone that claims the US knew Pearl harbor would be attacked is a fool. They should have been more vigalant, but there was absolutely no reason to suspect that Japan would be able to slip her entire Aircraft carrier fleet into range and do what they did.

In 1941 Carriers were still not considered decisive platforms. The belief had begun to change of course but it was still believed the Battleship ruled the waves. In fact all our plans involved rallying the battleships to the Philippines in one form or another. And the Japanese went AFTER our battleships.

Kimmel DID NOT ignore the warnings, he simply did not realize 6 carriers were bearing down on him. He and Short believed the threat was sabatoge and so stacked up the aircraft and ships in a manner that facilitated the actual attack.

Hell even Mac Arthur fell prey to it the next day in the Philippines. Most of his air force was caught on the ground as well, even AFTER he knew we were at war.

The only REAL warning was the mini subs that tried to enter the harbor the day before, and no one associated that with carriers. Further the single Radar that was in use was expermental and only used at night. Most of the staff did not trust it. The off going crew saw approaching aircraft but the report just made those receiving it think it was some B-17's due that morning. By the way they arrived in the middle of the attack.

If the Japanese had understood just how effective their carriers were they would have launched at least two more attacks. But the Admiral in charge was old school and ran away.

Some of you need to learn some REAL history outside the conspiracy rooms.

Halsey seems to have been the only one to go the extra mile per orders. His carrier was on a war footing at sea with orders to attack any Japanese it found. The second carrier was loaded with extra fighters destined for Wake Island. Its command decided to turn back after the attack rather then finish the mission.

Perhaps one of the ironies of history is that the attack on Pearl Harbor, and resultant decimation of our Battleships probably saved us from some serious errors later. For, as you state, most still regarded Battleships as the mainstay of naval superiority. The airplane had rendered the real role of battleships to that of mobile artillery for the support of amphibous landings.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

You are mistaken. We did not crack all the codes and even those we cracked were fragmentary. Hell the only reason we finally decided that Midway was a target was because in one dispatch they discussed the target had lost its water purification plant. Even then it was a calculated risk.

Pearl Harbor was not needed for war at all. There was absolutely no sane reason to allow the destruction of our Pacific Fleet.

As for the mini subs, none were actually captured and so no conclusive proof was available. Further mini subs do not lead one to suspect Air Craft carriers in waters they could not possibly be in.

You are aware the Japanese did not have refuelers like we did? They had a hell of a time refueling at sea. And Air Craft carriers were considered secondary platforms. The US still bought into the concept they were scout platforms with limited offensive ability. The Battleship was STILL the Queen of the battle.

After Pearl Harbor it was TRULY feared the Japanese could invade the West Coast and take Hawaii if they so chose.

It makes for a nice conspiracy but has no basis in fact. FDR would never have allowed our entire pacific fleet to be attacked just to go to war. They knew the diplomatic codes and knew Japan was declaring War the morning it did. THAT alone was all that was needed. If we had known Pearl was the target we would have alerted them before the attack and gotten their fleet along with the declaration of War.

The attack Fleet was sent WEEKS before the attack and was sent using land based message protocols. Once at Sea they went silent. All we knew was the Carrier Fleet and the battle fleet were at sea. NOT where.

Any student of history recognizes that American history demonstrates that our government is totally willing to sacrifice the lives of many for power and war.

The Gulf Of Tonkin .. 60,000 dead - President Johnson lied about the Gulf of Tonkin to send Americans off to fight in Vietnam. There were no torpedoes in the water in the Gulf. LBJ took advantage of an inexperienced sonar man's report to goad Congress into escalating the Vietnam War.

The Spanish/American War - President McKinley told the American people that the USS Maine had been sunk in Havana Harbor by a Spanish mine. The American people, outraged by this apparent unprovoked attack, supported the Spanish American War. The Captain of the USS Maine had insisted the ship was sunk by a coal bin explosion, investigations after the war proved that such had indeed been the case. There had been no mine.

The invasion of Iraq - No words neccessary

I would suggest you view the BBC documentary "Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor" or "Betrayal at Pearl Harbor" ..

What we knew about the codes and the timeline can be found here ..
Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies

Additionally, whether by aircraft carrier or not, it is absolutely undeniable that we knew large ships brought the minisubs to Pearl. They could not have gotten there on their own. By your own claims, we knew an attack was imminent .. sank minisubs in and around Pearl .. how much intelligence would be required to put the two together?

To suggest that any question about the deceptions that have led to war are somehow "conspiratoral" demonstrates a lack of understanding of history and the American government.

"All war is based on deception." -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

[Againsheila]

When this anniversary rolls around I'm reminded of the seniors I served at a housing project in Portland. The place was owned by the Japanese and they offered it as an elder place for all.

WWII was fresh in the minds of these folks even after so many years. Side by side lived people who lived in internment camps in the US, had lost loved ones in Hiroshima and Nagasaki along with those who had fought or lost loved ones at Pearl Harbor and in the Pacific.

Very challenging situation for both.

When you see how many years ago this war was, and how long it is that people are affected by war, it makes one wish for an end to war once and for all.

My father served in WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam war. He had no problems with making friends from any nationality. Some do hold grudges, but most know that in wartime you serve your country and it's not personal. Even Pappy Boyington made friends with his Japanese arch enemy years later.

I enjoy talking about WWII with some of my Japanese friends. I like to get other persectives and you have to realize that these people never fought in the war and are only people, not the decision makers. The only one I disagreed with was Satski whose father is a college prof in Okinawa and believes that the US military should leave, they shouldn't be a part of Japan and that they should still get money from both Japan and the US with Japan and the US having no say on how it's spent.

 

[Navy1960]

Miller awoke at 6:00 A.M. and was collecting laundry when the alarm for general quarters was sounded. He headed for his battle station, the antiaircraft battery magazine amidship, only to discover that torpedo damage had wrecked it. He went on deck where he was assigned to carry wounded fellow sailors to safer locations. When Captain Mervyn Bennion was injured by a bomb splinter, an officer ordered Miller to the bridge to help in the effort to move him to a place of relative safety. Miller picked him up and attempted to carry him to a first-aid station; the Captain refused to leave his post and remained on the bridge until his death.

When directed to assist in loading a pair of unattended Browning .50 caliber anti-aircraft guns, Miller took control of one and began firing at the Japanese planes, even though he had no training in operating the weapon. He fired the gun until he ran out of ammunition. Japanese aircraft eventually dropped two armor piercing bombs through the deck of the battleship and launched 5 × 18 in (457 mm) aircraft torpedoes into her port side. Heavily damaged by the ensuing explosions, and suffering from severe flooding below decks, the West Virginia slowly settled to the harbor bottom as her crew - including Miller - abandoned ship.

Doris Miller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is just one story of one man that has been largely forgotten as the years have past since that terrible Sunday morning. These are the real American hero's, that deserve at least if not for a moment tomorrow a silent thank you on who's shoulder's we all stand and have given of themselves so that we may live free. Some never came home like Dorrie Miller, some are in fields around the world, and in the oceans, and millions more did came home and went to work and put those medals and boots in closets to raise families and never again spoke of their sacrifice to this nation. We all owe them all of us a debt of gratitude for giving us the chance to live in a nation where we can give our children a place to live free and the chance to live in a nation wherever their hearts and minds will take them. So God Bless all those men and women that gave so much on that December day and all those who still carry on the great traditions that have made this nation great. You have my humble thank you and my families as well and we owe you a debt we can never repay.

 

[strollingbones]

i just wanted to remind everyone of the upcoming day and the events of the past. i really did not mean to start a debate on what happen or who let it happen. the day is recorded in history and the men and women of that day are dying, americans and japanese.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Happy birthday Andrew's son.

Man, that's a coincidence. My son's name is Andrew, and I'm taking him to a BD party on Sun too.

My step-daughter will be 24. Born December 7th in Honolulu of English/Japanese/Portuguese/Hawaiian descent. Her name is not Andrew, though.

My whole family is American Mutt.

-Joe

 

[Againsheila]

My step-daughter will be 24. Born December 7th in Honolulu of English/Japanese/Portuguese/Hawaiian descent. Her name is not Andrew, though.

My whole family is American Mutt.

-Joe

Happy Birthday to Joe's daughter.

 

[Remey688]

My Dad was in WW-II in the Pacific. He said something similar. FDR needed a war to get the US out of the depression.

Nothing special this weekend, but I will not forget to salute my father's flag.

Your post's first sentence is erroneous. Supplying Great Britain with manufactured goods and material was well on the way to putting folks back to work before 07DEC1941.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Your post's first sentence is erroneous. Supplying Great Britain with manufactured goods and material was well on the way to putting folks back to work before 07DEC1941.

That's not completely true.

The Depression did indeed play a role in FDR's decision to let Pearl Harbor happen .. but more importantly, England was on the verge of defeat by Hitler .. and Churchill warned FDR that if England fell, the US would be standing all alone whenever we ultimately entered the war.

I have a clearer picture of why FDR allowed it to happen .. and that truth can be found in examining the relationship between Churchill and FDR before December 7, 1941.

 

[Annie]

That's not completely true.

The Depression did indeed play a role in FDR's decision to let Pearl Harbor happen .. but more importantly, England was on the verge of defeat by Hitler .. and Churchill warned FDR that if England fell, the US would be standing all alone whenever we ultimately entered the war.

I have a clearer picture of why FDR allowed it to happen .. and that truth can be found in examining the relationship between Churchill and FDR before December 7, 1941.

Can you give the rest of us some citations of your proof?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Can you give the rest of us some citations of your proof?

I sure can good sister ...

PEARL HARBOR: FDR KNEW

Churchill wrote in his Nobel Prize winning series on WWII that FDR knew about the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor. The following is from pages 602-603 of THE GRAND ALLIANCE, c1950. Churchill makes these points about his good friend and colleague FDR, accusing him of treason while knowing that the facts would eventually come out:

Hawaii's commanders did not get proper warning.

Churchill was not going to judge what FDR did at Pearl Harbor.

FDR and he were very afraid that the US could not come into the war unless Japan attacked the U.S.

Pearl Harbor was worth the price.

FDR "knew the full and immediate purpose" of the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.
FDR welcomed the attack.

And this amazing statement: "Nor must we allow the account in detail of diplomatic interchanges to portray Japan as an injured innocent..." That is an admission, granted forced by the facts, that Japan WAS the injured innocent, maneuvered into firing the first shot, as Secretary of War Stimson put it. Cabinet Minister Sir Oliver Lyttelton, expressed the same point on June 20, 1944, to the American Chamber of Commerce: "Japan was provoked into attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty on history ever to say that America was forced into the war. Everyone knows where American sympathies were. It is incorrect to say that America was ever truly neutral even before America came into the war on a fighting basis."
PEARL HARBOR: FDR KNEW


Churchill Offers Toil and Tears to FDR

On the following day, Roosevelt responded that he could not commit to any course of action without congressional approval. At the time, there was widespread isolationist sentiment among the American people; he was about to run for an unprecedented third term and could not risk alienating a large constituency. Nor was Roosevelt yet inclined to trust the prime minister. Churchill thanked Roosevelt anyway in a message of five sentences, two of which are telling: “I do not need to tell you about the gravity of what has happened. We are determined to persevere to the very end, whatever the result of the great battle raging in France may be.”

Two days later Churchill wrote again to Roosevelt, including these ominous words: “Members of the present Administration would likely go down during this process should it result adversely, but in no conceivable circumstance will we consent to surrender. If members of the present administration were finished and others came in to parley amid the ruins, you must not be blind to the fact that the sole bargaining counter with Germany would be the Fleet; and if this country was left by the United States to its fate no one would have the right to blame those then responsible if they made the best terms they could for the surviving in-habitants. . . . Excuse me, Mr. President, for putting this nightmare bluntly. Evidently I could not answer for my successors who in utter despair or helplessness might well have to accommodate themselves to the German will. However, there is happily no need at present to dwell on such ideas.” Few understood at the time what Churchill knew implicitly: Roosevelt believed that should Britain fall, its fleet would cross the Atlantic for Canadian and American ports.

---

One disaster followed another. While the British army at Dunkirk was largely saved, the Germans marched into Paris a fortnight later, and France fell. Only now did Churchill invoke the United States. In a speech, he said: “If we fail, then the whole world, including the United States [author’s italics], and all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss. . . .” U.S. support for intervention in Europe remain mixed. In 1940 Herbert Hoover, Joseph Kennedy, Charles Lindbergh, and other influential Americans opposed entering the war. Roosevelt would come to understand Churchill’s perspective, but not yet.

The desperate French Premier Paul Reynaud had begged FDR to enter the war, but the president declined. On June 15 Churchill wrote to Roosevelt again, urging him to consider the consequences: “Although the present Government and I personally would never fail to send the Fleet across the Atlantic if resistance was beaten down here, a point may be reached in the struggle where the present Ministers no longer have control of affairs and when very easy terms could be obtained for the British Islands by their becoming a vassal state of the Hitler Empire. . . . If we go down you may have a United States of Europe under Nazi command far more numerous, far stronger, far better armed than the New World.”
AmericanHeritage.com / Churchill Offers Toil and Tears to FDR

I highly recommend reading all of this account .. but there are many many more accounts that all tell the same story. England was on the verge of defeat and Roosevelt desperately searched for ways to get in the war in spite of the fact that Americans had no taste for it.

FDR provoked the Japanese to attack .. then allowed it to happen.

 

[dilloduck]

I sure can good sister ...

PEARL HARBOR: FDR KNEW

Churchill wrote in his Nobel Prize winning series on WWII that FDR knew about the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor. The following is from pages 602-603 of THE GRAND ALLIANCE, c1950. Churchill makes these points about his good friend and colleague FDR, accusing him of treason while knowing that the facts would eventually come out:

Hawaii's commanders did not get proper warning.

Churchill was not going to judge what FDR did at Pearl Harbor.

FDR and he were very afraid that the US could not come into the war unless Japan attacked the U.S.

Pearl Harbor was worth the price.

FDR "knew the full and immediate purpose" of the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.
FDR welcomed the attack.

And this amazing statement: "Nor must we allow the account in detail of diplomatic interchanges to portray Japan as an injured innocent..." That is an admission, granted forced by the facts, that Japan WAS the injured innocent, maneuvered into firing the first shot, as Secretary of War Stimson put it. Cabinet Minister Sir Oliver Lyttelton, expressed the same point on June 20, 1944, to the American Chamber of Commerce: "Japan was provoked into attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty on history ever to say that America was forced into the war. Everyone knows where American sympathies were. It is incorrect to say that America was ever truly neutral even before America came into the war on a fighting basis."
PEARL HARBOR: FDR KNEW


Churchill Offers Toil and Tears to FDR

On the following day, Roosevelt responded that he could not commit to any course of action without congressional approval. At the time, there was widespread isolationist sentiment among the American people; he was about to run for an unprecedented third term and could not risk alienating a large constituency. Nor was Roosevelt yet inclined to trust the prime minister. Churchill thanked Roosevelt anyway in a message of five sentences, two of which are telling: “I do not need to tell you about the gravity of what has happened. We are determined to persevere to the very end, whatever the result of the great battle raging in France may be.”

Two days later Churchill wrote again to Roosevelt, including these ominous words: “Members of the present Administration would likely go down during this process should it result adversely, but in no conceivable circumstance will we consent to surrender. If members of the present administration were finished and others came in to parley amid the ruins, you must not be blind to the fact that the sole bargaining counter with Germany would be the Fleet; and if this country was left by the United States to its fate no one would have the right to blame those then responsible if they made the best terms they could for the surviving in-habitants. . . . Excuse me, Mr. President, for putting this nightmare bluntly. Evidently I could not answer for my successors who in utter despair or helplessness might well have to accommodate themselves to the German will. However, there is happily no need at present to dwell on such ideas.” Few understood at the time what Churchill knew implicitly: Roosevelt believed that should Britain fall, its fleet would cross the Atlantic for Canadian and American ports.

---

One disaster followed another. While the British army at Dunkirk was largely saved, the Germans marched into Paris a fortnight later, and France fell. Only now did Churchill invoke the United States. In a speech, he said: “If we fail, then the whole world, including the United States [author’s italics], and all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss. . . .” U.S. support for intervention in Europe remain mixed. In 1940 Herbert Hoover, Joseph Kennedy, Charles Lindbergh, and other influential Americans opposed entering the war. Roosevelt would come to understand Churchill’s perspective, but not yet.

The desperate French Premier Paul Reynaud had begged FDR to enter the war, but the president declined. On June 15 Churchill wrote to Roosevelt again, urging him to consider the consequences: “Although the present Government and I personally would never fail to send the Fleet across the Atlantic if resistance was beaten down here, a point may be reached in the struggle where the present Ministers no longer have control of affairs and when very easy terms could be obtained for the British Islands by their becoming a vassal state of the Hitler Empire. . . . If we go down you may have a United States of Europe under Nazi command far more numerous, far stronger, far better armed than the New World.”
AmericanHeritage.com / Churchill Offers Toil and Tears to FDR

I highly recommend reading all of this account .. but there are many many more accounts that all tell the same story. England was on the verge of defeat and Roosevelt desperately searched for ways to get in the war in spite of the fact that Americans had no taste for it.

FDR provoked the Japanese to attack .. then allowed it to happen.

Exactly how was Japan supposed to appear as the innocent victim while we were blockading them and supporting the Chinese ?

 

[Annie]

I sure can good sister ...

PEARL HARBOR: FDR KNEW

Churchill wrote in his Nobel Prize winning series on WWII that FDR knew about the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor. The following is from pages 602-603 of THE GRAND ALLIANCE, c1950. Churchill makes these points about his good friend and colleague FDR, accusing him of treason while knowing that the facts would eventually come out:

Hawaii's commanders did not get proper warning.

Churchill was not going to judge what FDR did at Pearl Harbor.

FDR and he were very afraid that the US could not come into the war unless Japan attacked the U.S.

Pearl Harbor was worth the price.

FDR "knew the full and immediate purpose" of the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.
FDR welcomed the attack.

And this amazing statement: "Nor must we allow the account in detail of diplomatic interchanges to portray Japan as an injured innocent..." That is an admission, granted forced by the facts, that Japan WAS the injured innocent, maneuvered into firing the first shot, as Secretary of War Stimson put it. Cabinet Minister Sir Oliver Lyttelton, expressed the same point on June 20, 1944, to the American Chamber of Commerce: "Japan was provoked into attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty on history ever to say that America was forced into the war. Everyone knows where American sympathies were. It is incorrect to say that America was ever truly neutral even before America came into the war on a fighting basis."
PEARL HARBOR: FDR KNEW


Churchill Offers Toil and Tears to FDR

On the following day, Roosevelt responded that he could not commit to any course of action without congressional approval. At the time, there was widespread isolationist sentiment among the American people; he was about to run for an unprecedented third term and could not risk alienating a large constituency. Nor was Roosevelt yet inclined to trust the prime minister. Churchill thanked Roosevelt anyway in a message of five sentences, two of which are telling: “I do not need to tell you about the gravity of what has happened. We are determined to persevere to the very end, whatever the result of the great battle raging in France may be.”

Two days later Churchill wrote again to Roosevelt, including these ominous words: “Members of the present Administration would likely go down during this process should it result adversely, but in no conceivable circumstance will we consent to surrender. If members of the present administration were finished and others came in to parley amid the ruins, you must not be blind to the fact that the sole bargaining counter with Germany would be the Fleet; and if this country was left by the United States to its fate no one would have the right to blame those then responsible if they made the best terms they could for the surviving in-habitants. . . . Excuse me, Mr. President, for putting this nightmare bluntly. Evidently I could not answer for my successors who in utter despair or helplessness might well have to accommodate themselves to the German will. However, there is happily no need at present to dwell on such ideas.” Few understood at the time what Churchill knew implicitly: Roosevelt believed that should Britain fall, its fleet would cross the Atlantic for Canadian and American ports.

---

One disaster followed another. While the British army at Dunkirk was largely saved, the Germans marched into Paris a fortnight later, and France fell. Only now did Churchill invoke the United States. In a speech, he said: “If we fail, then the whole world, including the United States [author’s italics], and all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss. . . .” U.S. support for intervention in Europe remain mixed. In 1940 Herbert Hoover, Joseph Kennedy, Charles Lindbergh, and other influential Americans opposed entering the war. Roosevelt would come to understand Churchill’s perspective, but not yet.

The desperate French Premier Paul Reynaud had begged FDR to enter the war, but the president declined. On June 15 Churchill wrote to Roosevelt again, urging him to consider the consequences: “Although the present Government and I personally would never fail to send the Fleet across the Atlantic if resistance was beaten down here, a point may be reached in the struggle where the present Ministers no longer have control of affairs and when very easy terms could be obtained for the British Islands by their becoming a vassal state of the Hitler Empire. . . . If we go down you may have a United States of Europe under Nazi command far more numerous, far stronger, far better armed than the New World.”
AmericanHeritage.com / Churchill Offers Toil and Tears to FDR

I highly recommend reading all of this account .. but there are many many more accounts that all tell the same story. England was on the verge of defeat and Roosevelt desperately searched for ways to get in the war in spite of the fact that Americans had no taste for it.

FDR provoked the Japanese to attack .. then allowed it to happen.

I've read many a time all of the above, just found a different slant to it all. Now that maybe me or on the contrary, you, but in either case gives some pause.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Exactly how was Japan supposed to appear as the innocent victim while we were blockading them and supporting the Chinese ?

Because it was known, including by Churchill, that FDR was goading Japan to attack.

 

[Gunny]

We had already cracked the Japanese code and knew exactly where they were going to attack.

We sank four Japanese minisubs in and around Pearl Harvor Bay just an hour or so before the attack began. Sank four and one ran aground .. this one ..

Here's one of the minisubs we sunk just 45 minutes before the attack ...

The range on those minisubs was about 60 miles .. so unless we believed Japan lie 60 miles off the coast of Pearl Harbor, we KNEW there were large ships close that brought them there.

We knew my brother .. and we allowed it to happen.

No one should be surprised that we would allow innocent people to die for the business of war. We have an entire history of it.

We had not cracked the Japanese code prior to Pear Harbor. We had it cracked prior to Midway and sent a red herring message regarding water shortage on Midway to get the exact location of The Japanese Navy's next strike. They took the bait.

There is no REAL evidence to support "we knew." As has already been pointed out by more than just me, the U S expected that if an attack came it would come in the Phillipines or Guam.

As I also have mentioned, it wouldn't have mattered much if we HAD known. The USAAF's aircraft were obsolete and no match for the Japanese Zero, and it would have been sending young, inexperienced flyers to be butchered by pilots who had been flying combat missions for almost a decade.

Another good point made by RGS is that at the time, the battleship was THE premier weapon of the US Navy. NO ONE in Roosevelt's position is going to take even a calculated by stupid risk of losing his Pacific fleet in the process of rednecking a fight.

And yes, our economic sanctions on Japan WERE asking for a war. Still, I place the blame on blind US arrogance rather than any subterfuge. IMO, it was unthinkable in the minds of most that pesky-ass little Japan would actually have the 'nads to attack "us" (We, the people and all that).