Oddball
Unobtanium Member
You wouldn't know intellect if it walked up and punched you in the face.
A thought provoking world view necessitating introspection.
- Thread starter berg80
- Start date
I think the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives value justice while liberals value empathy. Cons feel that if you work hard and prosper you should not be forced to help anyone else. Liberals feel that, while everyone is equal before the law, not everyone is created equal so as a society should assist those with greater need. Not to make them equal but to give them the best chance to be happy and productive. Additionally, every child deserves, by right of being a US citizen, adequate housing, healthcare, nutrition, and education.Here is an answer given by NYT columnist, Ezra Klein, to the question..........“Why are you a liberal and not a democratic socialist?”
I think it really depends what you mean by liberal and democratic socialist. Because those things mean different things in Europe, where there are deeper traditions of both.
And I think here the liberal democratic socialist and left dimensions overlap — but are different and are referred to as different by different people. I will say — let me try to do this in stages. I’m a liberal because I believe life is fundamentally unfair. I believe both life is fundamentally unfair, and I believe we deserve partial credit at best for how we do in it.
Not our fault that we were born to poorer parents. Not our fault we were born with dyslexia or without the iron will somebody else might have had. And also, on the other side of that, often not our fault that we were such hard workers, that our particular mix of intelligence and capacity was the right fit for the society we were in at the right time, and we had the resources or good luck to take advantage of it.
I am very well suited to a society that highly values abstract communication and not that well suited to a society that requires you to know where you’re going or to work a lot with your hands.
Opinion | What I’m Thinking at the End of 2024
Ezra Klein answers listener questions about fatherhood, ‘normalizing’ Trump and his outlook on 2025.www.nytimes.com
I have two friends in particular who have been very successful in life, financially speaking. I've known one since 1st grade and the other since I was 17. One is the definition of a "self made man," having come from a very modest background who became a multi-millionaire. They are both fine people I'm proud to call my friends and both are Repubs (they didn't start out that way). One voted for trump this time around, the other wrote in Nikki Haley.
Perhaps not coincidently, they have the same blind spot. They attribute their success exclusively to hard work. To be sure they have worked hard. But they had unmistakable advantages as well. Both are white men, both grew up in MA where opportunities abounded, both came from stable families with solid role models, both are highly intelligent, both were born with a drive to succeed.
When I saw Michael Moore's, "Capitalism; A Love Story," I was struck by some of the people he interviewed living in European countries (I can't remember which ones). I found the way they spoke about their less fortunate, fellow citizens verged on familial. They displayed, to me, what I considered extraordinary generosity of spirit as someone who has lived his life in a very different culture. Which is not to say Americans are not generous in their own way. But it's a different mindset.
So.........do people who are less fortunate deserve the support of their fellow citizens as Klein implies? Is a difference of opinion on that subject the fundamental reason some of us are liberals and some are conservatives?
Anathema
Crotchety Olde Man
No one DESERVES anything based on any criteria that they don’t control. Being born to any sex, race, religion, socio-economic class, should not grant any individual the right to support or assistance from anyone other than their parents. Nor should anyone be expected to support anyone else other than their own children.
j-mac
Nuthin' but the truth
Oh, so I should turn over the new leaf while you continue to insult, malign, and generally denigrate anyone who doesn't think like you?
Why don't you do us all a favor and show us how it's done....
Oddball
Unobtanium Member
At gunpoint, if necessary.
Mac-7
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 2019
- 77,071
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If your two white friends made it why cant others?Here is an answer given by NYT columnist, Ezra Klein, to the question..........“Why are you a liberal and not a democratic socialist?”
I think it really depends what you mean by liberal and democratic socialist. Because those things mean different things in Europe, where there are deeper traditions of both.
And I think here the liberal democratic socialist and left dimensions overlap — but are different and are referred to as different by different people. I will say — let me try to do this in stages. I’m a liberal because I believe life is fundamentally unfair. I believe both life is fundamentally unfair, and I believe we deserve partial credit at best for how we do in it.
Not our fault that we were born to poorer parents. Not our fault we were born with dyslexia or without the iron will somebody else might have had. And also, on the other side of that, often not our fault that we were such hard workers, that our particular mix of intelligence and capacity was the right fit for the society we were in at the right time, and we had the resources or good luck to take advantage of it.
I am very well suited to a society that highly values abstract communication and not that well suited to a society that requires you to know where you’re going or to work a lot with your hands.
Opinion | What I’m Thinking at the End of 2024
Ezra Klein answers listener questions about fatherhood, ‘normalizing’ Trump and his outlook on 2025.
I have two friends in particular who have been very successful in life, financially speaking. I've known one since 1st grade and the other since I was 17. One is the definition of a "self made man," having come from a very modest background who became a multi-millionaire. They are both fine people I'm proud to call my friends and both are Repubs (they didn't start out that way). One voted for trump this time around, the other wrote in Nikki Haley.
Perhaps not coincidently, they have the same blind spot. They attribute their success exclusively to hard work. To be sure they have worked hard. But they had unmistakable advantages as well. Both are white men, both grew up in MA where opportunities abounded, both came from stable families with solid role models, both are highly intelligent, both were born with a drive to succeed.
When I saw Michael Moore's, "Capitalism; A Love Story," I was struck by some of the people he interviewed living in European countries (I can't remember which ones). I found the way they spoke about their less fortunate, fellow citizens verged on familial. They displayed, to me, what I considered extraordinary generosity of spirit as someone who has lived his life in a very different culture. Which is not to say Americans are not generous in their own way. But it's a different mindset.
So.........do people who are less fortunate deserve the support of their fellow citizens as Klein implies? Is a difference of opinion on that subject the fundamental reason some of us are liberals and some are conservatives?
Whatever reason you give still ends with the fact that the two men are better qualified at their job
Democracy sucks. Would you say the same about your taxes building interstate highways or is it just people you don't care about?
Oddball
Unobtanium Member
No, aggression sucks....If you need force to bring about your ideas, then your ideas suck.
MUH ROOOOOOADS! is a stale meaningless red herring.
Rawley
Diamond Member
- Sep 8, 2014
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THe fundamental difference is Equity versus Equality.
I agree. That is why I didn't support any BLM or MAGA/Jan6th violence. On the other hand, if someone threatened my family, aggression would be just fine by me.
Oddball
Unobtanium Member
Seymour Flops
Diamond Member
Not quite.
The view is that a person is less fortunate, well that is . . . unfortunate . . . but it doesn't create any obligation on my part.
They are welcome to all the assistance that people voluntarily give them - which would be a lot more if we didn't have to pay half of our income in taxes at all the various levels and types.
Is that view still that bane of humankind thingie?
Seymour Flops
Diamond Member
If I may, what I believe oddball is referring to is the aggression of taxes, which is government taking money from citizens at gunpoint.
Oddball
Unobtanium Member
Taxes, forced use, compulsory attendance, licensing, State monopoly, State "charity"....All of it ultimately at the point of a gun.
You are really ugly and don't have anything to say. Sad.
We pay taxes that are established by law and, just like every other law, those laws may be enforced at gunpoint. Do you think each of us should be able to decide which laws we obey?
Oddball
Unobtanium Member
All that a twaddling looter is worth.
Seymour Flops
Diamond Member
No, I would prefer that we as a society make the adult decision that whatever kind of government we want, it should be funded without theft.
Besides, your shocked tone about deciding which laws we obey rings hollow given the last four years of selective enforcement of and selective compliance with laws under your Party.
fncceo
Diamond Member
- Nov 29, 2016
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I’m a conservative because I KNOW life is unfair and I know it’s not my job to fix it.
If I fall behind, I either run faster or settle for the bronze.
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