An Honest Moral Question

[manu1959]

The problem is that many slaves did not have their fundamental right to freedom or whatever taken away just because somebody else could. Some of them volunteered, and denying them that might infringe on their right to free will. Then there's the 'greater good' concept. What if one of those kids is carrying a deadly plague and the only way to save 95% of the population is by gunning down the bus and then burning it. Sure, it's an extreme case, but slave labor did accomplish many good things that would have been otherwise infeasible without heavy machinery. Structures built by slave labor often contributed to a greatly increased life span. Some people who were made slaves actually had their lives spared by that action. So, which weighs more, the good or the bad?

Just another reminder, since I'm under the impression that some people think I'd actually support slavery, I don't.

slavery is evil....

 

[The ClayTaurus]

And if that human chooses to enter into a "slavery" situation.....

This is fun and all, but I need to get off soon before I get sick...

 

[Hobbit]

And I was simply trying to point out that just because war has consequences does not mean that those consequences aren't evil. I'm glad we agree on this.You just told us all that this was how your 8th grade teacher spurred discussion amongst you, and now you're using it on me. I resent you thinking you're stringing me along as though I don't really know why I don't like slavery, that I just lockstep repeat that it's a bad thing because that's what I've always been told. I don't need you to liberate my thoughts and opinions and basic understanding of right and wrong like your 8th grade teacher did yours. How elitist of you, oh enlightened one. Really.

A human has the right to do as they please, so long as it does not infringe on someone else's right to do the same. Slavery clearly is one man doing as he pleases while intentionally infringing on other human's rights to do the same. It's that simple. There's no gray are involved.

Now, Teach, let's hear the subquestions that will help me enlighten everyone to my position.

Well, I just kept hearing over and over "Nobody has the right..." and "It's just evil..." What was I to think? The only thing I could think is that you hadn't really thought about it much. I kept trying to pry more, but you never gave, so I just got blatant. Sorry if it offended you, but you seemed just bunkered down under saying "It's always evil for a man to own another," with no further arugments other than the "lesser of two evils is still evil" thing, which I have conceded.

The bolded portion is what I've been trying to get at. That's what I wanted to see. It's an actual reason, rather than just a blanket statement. Now, we see the base problem you have with slavery. Every man has the right to do whatever he pleases as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others, and slavery prevents the man from doing anything other than what his master allows, whether it hurts others or not. Now, was that so hard?

Now, what if somebody volunteers. He wants to sell himself to another person for money and is willing to be owned by that person for x years or his natural life, whichever ends first. Maybe he needs the money. Maybe it's a fetish. Whatever the reason, he wants to be a slave. The dictionary definition of slavery does not require that it be involuntary, only that one person own another, so this fits the definition. What this person wants to do will not infringe on the rights of others, and will actually benefit whoever he sells himself to. Should that person be allowed to be a slave? If not, how does it violate his rights if it's voluntary?

 

[GotZoom]

Just another reminder, since I'm under the impression that some people think I'd actually support slavery, I don't.

Everyone here knows that NOBODY here supports slavery.

We're discussing.

 

[Hobbit]

I could get really rich by robbing people. There's no way I could have gotten as rich if I hadn't have stolen. Does that make my stealing not evil? What if I stole so much money that I had enough to start donating it. Would my stealing still be evil?

Take it a step further. What if, by robbing people, you funded the creation of a potent new drug that kept people from aging past 30...and it was retroactive? Were you still wrong to rob those people?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Well, I just kept hearing over and over "Nobody has the right..." and "It's just evil..." What was I to think? The only thing I could think is that you hadn't really thought about it much. I kept trying to pry more, but you never gave, so I just got blatant. Sorry if it offended you, but you seemed just bunkered down under saying "It's always evil for a man to own another," with no further arugments other than the "lesser of two evils is still evil" thing, which I have conceded.

The bolded portion is what I've been trying to get at. That's what I wanted to see. It's an actual reason, rather than just a blanket statement. Now, we see the base problem you have with slavery. Every man has the right to do whatever he pleases as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others, and slavery prevents the man from doing anything other than what his master allows, whether it hurts others or not. Now, was that so hard?

Now, what if somebody volunteers. He wants to sell himself to another person for money and is willing to be owned by that person for x years or his natural life, whichever ends first. Maybe he needs the money. Maybe it's a fetish. Whatever the reason, he wants to be a slave. The dictionary definition of slavery does not require that it be involuntary, only that one person own another, so this fits the definition. What this person wants to do will not infringe on the rights of others, and will actually benefit whoever he sells himself to. Should that person be allowed to be a slave? If not, how does it violate his rights if it's voluntary?

You keep returning back to voluntary slavery, which is really just work. If you want to go around calling it slavery, then anyone who works in a capitalist society could be considered a slave. If that's how you want to label things, be my guest. I think it's rediculous; others may not.

I will say, though, that usually the people who bitch the most about being a slave to their job are usually the ones with the biggest entitlement mentality, and knowing who you are, I'm surprised you're even close to this viewpoint.

Ugh. Look, I'm done riding this merrygoround with you; talk down to someone else.

 

[Hobbit]

This is fun and all, but I need to get off soon before I get sick...

Fair enough, and I did finally get to the root of the issue.

In retrospect, this was kinda fun. I may have to do it again...but not for a while. I mean, I see these discussions come up all the time with contested issues like abortion and capital punishment. However, I think we do ourselves a disservice by not talking like this about things most people accept.

 

[Hobbit]

You keep returning back to voluntary slavery, which is really just work. If you want to go around calling it slavery, then anyone who works in a capitalist society could be considered a slave. If that's how you want to label things, be my guest. I think it's rediculous; others may not.

I will say, though, that usually the people who bitch the most about being a slave to their job are usually the ones with the biggest entitlement mentality, and knowing who you are, I'm surprised you're even close to this viewpoint.

Ugh. Look, I'm done riding this merrygoround with you; talk down to someone else.

I'm really not trying to talk down. I'm trying to provoke thought, and I'm not as good an orator as some other people, so some things come out a bit, well, wrong. I don't think I'm mentally or morally superior to you, I just got to thinking about this one thing one day and thought I'd weight in and see if I could get beyond the "Well, it's just wrong" responses, and I did, and it makes me happy.

As for voluntary slavery, there's a HUGE difference between it and a job. You can quit a job. A job doesn't pay up front. Your boss can't interfere with your private life at a job. You can choose your own food and accomadations at a job. It's quite different. Now, people who throw around the term loosely, yeah, whiners. If somebody wants to find out what it's like to be a slave, let them set up a cot in that cubicle and live there and only be allowed meals from the company cafeteria with the only hope of a legal escape before your time's up being the death or incarceration of your boss.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I'm really not trying to talk down. I'm trying to provoke thought, and I'm not as good an orator as some other people, so some things come out a bit, well, wrong. I don't think I'm mentally or morally superior to you, I just got to thinking about this one thing one day and thought I'd weight in and see if I could get beyond the "Well, it's just wrong" responses, and I did, and it makes me happy.

As for voluntary slavery, there's a HUGE difference between it and a job. You can quit a job. A job doesn't pay up front. Your boss can't interfere with your private life at a job. You can choose your own food and accomadations at a job. It's quite different. Now, people who throw around the term loosely, yeah, whiners. If somebody wants to find out what it's like to be a slave, let them set up a cot in that cubicle and live there and only be allowed meals from the company cafeteria with the only hope of a legal escape before your time's up being the death or incarceration of your boss.

Are you a slave in the military?

 

[GotZoom]

Are you a slave in the military?

The military is probably one of the closest things you will find today that could be interpreted that way.

But remember...today..you VOLUNTEER to be in the military.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

The military is probably one of the closest things you will find today that could be interpreted that way.

But remember...today..you VOLUNTEER to be in the military.

Which is why it isn't slavery. No matter how hard Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton scream that it is.

 

[deaddude]

Then the question becomes: Is drafting someone into the military slavery?

 

[GotZoom]

Which is why it isn't slavery. No matter how hard Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton scream that it is.

Exactly...if you VOLUNTEER to be in that situation, it isn't slavery.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Exactly...if you VOLUNTEER to be in that situation, it isn't slavery.

Hey, welcome to my world! The beer is over there, pisser's behind you and down the hall.

 

[Hobbit]

Then the question becomes: Is drafting someone into the military slavery?

That is actually a very good question. See, this is the kind of stuff I like to see.

Technically, I don't think the military is slavery, not because it's voluntary, but simply because you're not really owned by anybody. In a roundabout way, I guess you could say the President owns all of the soldiers, but his power can be checked, and he really only controls where they fight and by what rules. The generals control how it's done. Then there's the fact that, in the military, you may live and eat off base if you want, commuting to work every day like any other job, and the military has little say in what you do during your off time unless you've broken some of the rules.

However, I do think that it's a valid comparison when used in the context of pre-European slavery. You can't quit the Army until your time is up. They have a lot of control over your daily life. In boot camp, it practically is that form of slavery. It's also used by a few in much the same way as slavery was in ancient times. Most people join out of a sense of duty and patriotism, but some join as an alternative to prison or to work themselves and their families out of the poorhouse. Now, when Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton call the military slavery because the evil Republicans are oppressing those poor black guys by making them join the Army, it's degrading to the people who joined to serve their country. There are a few similarities, though.

 

[GotZoom]

Hey, welcome to my world! The beer is over there, pisser's behind you and down the hall.

You are using the negative definition to define all your thoughts and uses of the word.

My point in my statement is that if you volunteer for "slavery", then that definition of slavery isn't the "bad" one.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

You are using the negative definition to define all your thoughts and uses of the word.

My point in my statement is that if you volunteer for "slavery", then that definition of slavery isn't the "bad" one.

if you VOLUNTEER to be in that situation, it isn't slavery.

It isn't the "bad" one because it isn't "one" at all. It's not slavery. Because I said so. Because I am God. Because I rule. Don't question me, peon. :firing:

 

[GotZoom]

It isn't the "bad" one because it isn't "one" at all. It's not slavery. Because I said so. Because I am God. Because I rule. Don't question me, peon. :firing:

I'm sorry....did you say something?

I wasn't paying attention.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I'm sorry....did you say something?

I wasn't paying attention.

The beer is good, I know. It's Newcastle. I don't mind

 

[deaddude]

Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Emphasis mine.

Drafting an involuntary person would seem to qualify as involuntary servitude.

I do not wish to volunteer my service to the army, the gov forces me to serve in the army, I am no involuntarily serving the gov.