Are We Slaves?

[manifold]

There is a great quote from Player Piano that would really fit nicely with the theme of this thread.

I only wish I could remember it.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You don't "need" to buy a North Face fleece and Gore-Tex jacket to survive. You don't "need" your Scarpa boots or your Black Diamond tent or your Petzl climbing gear to survive.

You chose to buy those things. You chose to trade your hours, days, years for dollars to buy those things.

you do not "need" to buy groceries from a corporation, you can grow a great deal of your own food even if you live in an apartment. you can preserve your own fruits and vegetables or you can buy all your produce from a farmers' market and preserve it yourself.

You don't "need" to buy Levis jeans. you can hire a seamstress to make your pants and shirts, you can even make your own Gore tex and fleece jackets. All you have to do is buy the patterns and materials.

You certainly do not "need" a computer, TV or I pod to survive.

Please do not confuse wants with needs. you do what you do because it is more convenient than not doing it.

Face it you don't want to make your own clothes or hire a tailor to make them for you, you don't want to grow your own food and preserve it.

You are whining that you are a slave but you are a "slave" by choice and your premise is self contradictory and therefore invalid.[/QUOTE]

I understand that I don't need everything I have. I am well aware of this. Everyone else who reads this thread, I am not saying that I personally need a cell phone, or this computer, or my microwave, etc.

The point of this thread is, that in order to have anything, ANYTHING, whether you need it or not, in order to obtain almost any materials requires supporting corporations: even housing, food, clothing, and water. Even the necessities. Especially luxuries and my climbing gear, and all of that, but even the necessities. Unless one becomes impoverished and homeless.

So do you think that someone could survive without buying from corporations? If I bought my food from a farmer's market and dried it, how would I transport it, with what would I dry it? Would it be enough to nourish me? Farmer's markets are usually once a week. Can I get enough fresh food to survive on once a week? Where would I get the necessities I would have to have in order to grow my own food? Where woud I grow my food? In my apartment or house?:

Where would I live, and with what marerials would I build my shelter? How would I get to and from my shelter from work?

Where would I get the materials to make my clothing? How would I sew that material together? Where would the tailor or seamstress get his/her power, his/her locations, his/her materials?

But that is ALL beside the point. The point is, that if you live in modern society, your life is probably under constant influence from large corporations. Even and including the regulations and laws by which we must abide to avoid fines and/or jail time and further recriminations like when applying for a job and having your background checked.

Or live as a wandering bum. That's our choice. Either corporate slave, or puppet, or pawn, whatever word you want to use, and the subsequent meaninglessness, or bum and the consequent meanlinglessness.

I've been thinking about this a lot and see no other alternatives... Its almost like how do I make the best out of a shitty situation.

 

[manifold]

This thread reminds me of the one truly interesting question from the Political Compass Test:

Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity.

- Strongly Disagree
- Disagree
- Agree
- Strongly Agree

 

[dilloduck]

This thread reminds me of the one truly interesting question from the Political Compass Test:

Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity.

- Strongly Disagree
- Disagree
- Agree
- Strongly Agree

I'm thinking about just transcending the establishment

*poof*

 

[Skull Pilot]

I understand that I don't need everything I have. I am well aware of this. Everyone else who reads this thread, I am not saying that I personally need a cell phone, or this computer, or my microwave, etc.

The point of this thread is, that in order to have anything, ANYTHING, whether you need it or not, in order to obtain almost any materials requires supporting corporations: even housing, food, clothing, and water. Even the necessities. Especially luxuries and my climbing gear, and all of that, but even the necessities. Unless one becomes impoverished and homeless.

Simply not true.

So do you think that someone could survive without buying from corporations? If I bought my food from a farmer's market and dried it

there are myriad ways to preserve food, not just drying. Here's a tip, go to the free public library and educate yourself.

how would I transport it,

How about on your back, on your bike, in a wagon in your car.

you do realize that if you buy a bike, wagon or car used, the corporation which pruduced that commodity originally makes no money.

with what would I dry it?

See above

Would it be enough to nourish me?

If you buy the right stuff it will.

Farmer's markets are usually once a week. Can I get enough fresh food to survive on once a week?

hence the preserving of your food to last for months

Where would I get the necessities I would have to have in order to grow my own food?

HMM dirt and seeds. where would you get those?

Where woud I grow my food? In my apartment or house?:

Yes you can, you can grow food in planters on the roof in the summer, in pots and terrariums in winter.

Where would I live

Dumb question. If you rent an apartment from a little old lady, how are you enslaved by a corporation?

, and with what marerials would I build my shelter?

You don't have to build your own shelter but if you wanted to trees, and mud are petty much everywhere.

How

would I get to and from my shelter from work?

See above

Where would I get the materials to make my clothing?

buy used clothing from the salvation army and wear them or use the material or would that enslave you to a corporation?

How would I sew that material together? Where would the tailor or seamstress get his/her power, his/her locations, his/her materials?

You're reaching. None of that matters. You said you wanted not to be beholden to corporations. if a tailor buys his supplies from a corp, he is beholden not you.

But that is ALL beside the point. The point is, that if you live in modern society, your life is probably under constant influence from large corporations.

Influence is not slavery

Even and including the regulations and laws by which we must abide to avoid fines and/or jail time

that is government not corporations. We are constantly beholden to government under the threat of incarceration and you are more bothered by your choice to buy or not buy from a corporation.

and further recriminations like when applying for a job and having your background checked.

Apply for jobs that don't do background checks if it bothers you so much. Or work for yourself.

Or live as a wandering bum. That's our choice. Either corporate slave, or puppet, or pawn, whatever word you want to use, and the subsequent meaninglessness, or bum and the consequent meanlinglessness.

I've been thinking about this a lot and see no other alternatives... Its almost like how do I make the best out of a shitty situation.

Who other than a spoiled rotten child would see their lives as "shitty" when every day you can wake up and make any of an endless combination of choices on how to live your life, where to go, who to associate with etc.

But you would rather whine about the only 2 choices (corporate slave or bum) you have while ignoring all the others.

You sir have been successfully conditioned. I recant my earlier statement. you are a slave.

A slave to your limited thinking.

 

[Paulie]

You guys need to define what "dependant on the system" means, because purchasing goods and services in the marketplace is not dependant in and of itself.

Some corps make every effort to be ethically and socially responsible. Mountain man is lumping all corps into some kind of collective of evil.

What exactly would you like to see happen, mountain? I noticed you ALSO complained about tight regs keeping the little guy down. How do you reconcile your liberal positions then? The liberal is typically in favor of stricter regulations, so how do you get to have it both ways?

Who do you want to be the one selling you what you want and need? Do you want to see all corps dissolved, and only have private proprietorships? I'm not understand what exactly it is your complaining about. If standard of living is something you're not willing to lose out on, then who would you prefer to see supplying the market?

Perhaps you should consider the fact that the demand side is just as much responsible for out of control corporations as the corps themselves. As long as there's ignorant oblivious sheep out there demanding all the crap these corps are pitching, there's going to be corps and there's nothing any amount of bitching about it is going to do. The big mega corps didn't grow to their size out of magic. They got big because we're one big collective of greedy, selfish morons. ALL OF US.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Well, if you really feel the need to get personal Skull Pilot, go ahead. But, I'm hardly a spoled brat: I grew up poor with alcholic, abusive, neglectful parents. I joined the US Marines and served honorably for 4 years. I used that money to attend college. I've educated myself since then. I've been homeless (by choice), living out of tent or a backpack for months at a time. I've always worked for a living. I've never received any form of government hand-out.

What I don't see are alternatives to supporting large corporations which influence the government with their money, resources, lobbyists, to promote the regulations which enable them to better do business and hurt small businesses and opportunities for the rest of us to start and maintain a small business and actually make a decent living (even with a great idea), beyond quitting society and living as a bum (which seems meaningless to me).

Perhaps, o wise one, you could offer what those alternatives were instead of lowering yourself to insult me?

Do you really think this is whining? What am I whining about? This is a philosophical point of view that I put out there to get some feedback. Granted, that opens me up to petty insults and unconstructive criticism, but I thought that you would consider yourself above such behaviors, Skull Pilot (I have read many insightful posts by you), and it seems stupid that you would, instead, get personal.

I guess your thinking is unlimited. I bow down to thee, o great one. You've assured yourself a place in the realm of the credible, just, and wise.

 

[Skull Pilot]

You guys need to define what "dependant on the system" means, because purchasing goods and services in the marketplace is not dependant in and of itself.

Some corps make every effort to be ethically and socially responsible. Mountain man is lumping all corps into some kind of collective of evil.

that's what self proclaimed "liberals" who are really collectivists have been conditioned to think.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Well, if you really feel the need to get personal Skull Pilot, go ahead. But, I'm hardly a spoled brat: I grew up poor with alcholic, abusive, neglectful parents. I joined the US Marines and served honorably for 4 years. I used that money to attend college. I've educated myself since then. I've been homeless (by choice), living out of tent or a backpack for months at a time. I've always worked for a living. I've never received any form of government hand-out.

What I don't see are alternatives to supporting large corporations which influence the government with their money, resources, lobbyists, to promote the regulations which enable them to better do business and hurt small businesses and opportunities for the rest of us to start and maintain a small business and actually make a decent living (even with a great idea), beyond quitting society and living as a bum (which seems meaningless to me).

Perhaps, o wise one, you could offer what those alternatives were instead of lowering yourself to insult me?

Do you really think this is whining? What am I whining about? This is a philosophical point of view that I put out there to get some feedback. Granted, that opens me up to petty insults and unconstructive criticism, but I thought that you would consider yourself above such behaviors, Skull Pilot (I have read many insightful posts by you), and it seems stupid that you would, instead, get personal.

I guess your thinking is unlimited. I bow down to thee, o great one. You've assured yourself a place in the realm of the credible, just, and wise.

OK let me get this straight.

" My life is shitty because i only have two choices. I can either be a corporate slave or an impoverished bum"

yup sounds like whining to me.

 

[manifold]

psst...

corporations are actually people.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Well, if you really feel the need to get personal Skull Pilot, go ahead. But, I'm hardly a spoled brat: I grew up poor with alcholic, abusive, neglectful parents. I joined the US Marines and served honorably for 4 years. I used that money to attend college. I've educated myself since then. I've been homeless (by choice), living out of tent or a backpack for months at a time. I've always worked for a living. I've never received any form of government hand-out.

What I don't see are alternatives to supporting large corporations which influence the government with their money, resources, lobbyists, to promote the regulations which enable them to better do business and hurt small businesses and opportunities for the rest of us to start and maintain a small business and actually make a decent living (even with a great idea), beyond quitting society and living as a bum (which seems meaningless to me).

Perhaps, o wise one, you could offer what those alternatives were instead of lowering yourself to insult me?

Do you really think this is whining? What am I whining about? This is a philosophical point of view that I put out there to get some feedback. Granted, that opens me up to petty insults and unconstructive criticism, but I thought that you would consider yourself above such behaviors, Skull Pilot (I have read many insightful posts by you), and it seems stupid that you would, instead, get personal.

I guess your thinking is unlimited. I bow down to thee, o great one. You've assured yourself a place in the realm of the credible, just, and wise.

OK let me get this straight.

" My life is shitty because i only have two choices. I can either be a corporate slave or an impoverished bum"

yup sounds like whining to me.

I was going to let this go but I changed my mind.

You say you have no choice but to enrich and thereby be enslaved by corporations or be nothing but an impoverished bum.

In reality you have endless choices but you choose to limit yourself two but two.

I did give you a few ways you could live without getting necessities from corporations and there are many more ways you could.

the hard truth here is that you don't want to make the choices that will free you from your so called slavery to corporations.

You could make every action in your life a choice NOT to be enslaved by a corporation. But you refuse. You refuse because what takes you 20 minutes now, going to the Super Stop and Shop for groceries for instance, would take you hours more a week.

If you had to tend a garden, indoors or out, and preserve your fruits and vegetables yourself, you would be spending your weekends and evenings working these chores. And that's just food. what if you chose to make your own clothing, how many hours would that take a week, a year?

but you choose to go climbing, backpacking, kayaking, camping in your free time and on the way to the mountains you pull into a Denny's and have a 5 dollar breakfast and complain that you are a slave. Is that not whining?

gee those corporations really ruined your life huh?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You guys need to define what "dependant on the system" means, because purchasing goods and services in the marketplace is not dependant in and of itself.

Some corps make every effort to be ethically and socially responsible. Mountain man is lumping all corps into some kind of collective of evil.

What exactly would you like to see happen, mountain? I noticed you ALSO complained about tight regs keeping the little guy down. How do you reconcile your liberal positions then? The liberal is typically in favor of stricter regulations, so how do you get to have it both ways?

Who do you want to be the one selling you what you want and need? Do you want to see all corps dissolved, and only have private proprietorships? I'm not understand what exactly it is your complaining about. If standard of living is something you're not willing to lose out on, then who would you prefer to see supplying the market?

Perhaps you should consider the fact that the demand side is just as much responsible for out of control corporations as the corps themselves. As long as there's ignorant oblivious sheep out there demanding all the crap these corps are pitching, there's going to be corps and there's nothing any amount of bitching about it is going to do. The big mega corps didn't grow to their size out of magic. They got big because we're one big collective of greedy, selfish morons. ALL OF US.

And I don't disagree with you on your last point.

I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about meaning. Living a meaningful life. Small business is great. I try to buy local, to not support large franchise chains or huge corporations, but its impossible to do and maintain the quality of life that I choose to live. I don't support just blanket, more regulations please sir, from the government. I think we should try to boost small businesses, we should encourage small business, not hinder them like we do now. I think everyone should have the opportunity to start their own business, whatever it is, and stand half a chance. Instead most of us work for and financially support large corporations.

I don't mean that ALL corporations are evil, or unethical. But I do think many, many of them are or would be if given enough incentive. And I think that they lobby to make it easier to operate unethically.

I would love to buy a tv from some local electronics guys that manufactured them. Or buy the tv from a local distributor that bought the tvs from the local electronics guys. Then I'm supporting someone who really exists and directly effects my local economy and community, instead of some already extremely wealthy people who, by their very existence, reduce the opportunity for others to make a decent life for themselves.

I know its unrealistic to think that we can just dissolve these corporations and have small business owners take over the supply side. The point of this thread was to state: look at how corporations have swindled us! I don't like it. Do you?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

psst...

corporations are actually people.

No, they aren't. They are living things, yes, but with a life of their own.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I was going to let this go but I changed my mind.

You say you have no choice but to enrich and thereby be enslaved by corporations or be nothing but an impoverished bum.

In reality you have endless choices but you choose to limit yourself two but two.

I did give you a few ways you could live without getting necessities from corporations and there are many more ways you could.

the hard truth here is that you don't want to make the choices that will free you from your so called slavery to corporations.

You could make every action in your life a choice NOT to be enslaved by a corporation. But you refuse. You refuse because what takes you 20 minutes now, going to the Super Stop and Shop for groceries for instance, would take you hours more a week.

If you had to tend a garden, indoors or out, and preserve your fruits and vegetables yourself, you would be spending your weekends and evenings working these chores. And that's just food. what if you chose to make your own clothing, how many hours would that take a week, a year?

but you choose to go climbing, backpacking, kayaking, camping in your free time and on the way to the mountains you pull into a Denny's and have a 5 dollar breakfast and complain that you are a slave. Is that not whining?

gee those corporations really ruined your life huh?

It would be unrealistic to try and live in modern society without the goods and services provided by large companies. Maybe even impossible.

Your reactionary comments hardly accurately describe what I wrote and I think you are missing the point of this whole thread.

I know I have a choice, Skull Pilot, its just that the choices aren't good. Corporate slavery or bum? I could do a lot for myself, as you have suggested, but I WOULDN'T RETAIN the QUALITY OF LIFE that I wish to. But, the third alternative, the unrealistic one, is that small businesses take over the world instead of huge, impersonal, multi-national conglomerates whose already very wealthy owners and board of investors maintain their giant corporations at the expense of the middle classes. And then I could support my local economy, community, and maintain the lifestyle that I currently enjoy.

 

[manifold]

Hey CMan,

The simple fact of the matter is that the corporate model that dominates business today got there because it is more effiecient than the distributed, local model you seem to pine for. But make no mistake about it, when you buy a big corp tv from a big corp retail chain, you are still helping to support and feed the average joes that earn their living working for them. I'm surprised you don't see that.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Hey CMan,

The simple fact of the matter is that the corporate model that dominates business today got there because it is more effiecient than the distributed, local model you seem to pine for. But make no mistake about it, when you buy a big corp tv from a big corp retail chain, you are still helping to support and feed the average joes that earn their living working for them. I'm surprised you don't see that.

Actually, I DO see that. I just think things would be better if those people I feed when I buy stuff would appreciate the opportunity to eat because I bought the stuff they produced, manufactured, distributed, grew, or sold for themselves and not for Mr. McDonald, or Coca-Cola, or Wal-Mart, or whatever.

And although it may be more EFFICIENT to have an economy structured on the corporate model, it just doesn't seem very humane.

I feel like we're all zombies in a long grey corridor that work for the wealthy few and only some of us ever get to get out of the system. I'm not saying everyone WANTS to, but I think most of us do. Or am I wrong?

 

[manifold]

Hey CMan,

The simple fact of the matter is that the corporate model that dominates business today got there because it is more effiecient than the distributed, local model you seem to pine for. But make no mistake about it, when you buy a big corp tv from a big corp retail chain, you are still helping to support and feed the average joes that earn their living working for them. I'm surprised you don't see that.

Actually, I DO see that. I just think things would be better if those people I feed when I buy stuff would appreciate the opportunity to eat because I bought the stuff they produced, manufactured, distributed, grew, or sold for themselves and not for Mr. McDonald, or Coca-Cola, or Wal-Mart, or whatever.

And although it may be more EFFICIENT to have an economy structured on the corporate model, it just doesn't seem very humane.

I feel like we're all zombies in a long grey corridor that work for the wealthy few and only some of us ever get to get out of the system. I'm not saying everyone WANTS to, but I think most of us do. Or am I wrong?

I get your point. In fact I got it right from the start, I've just been having a little fun.

All things considered, I like my life. So I'm not in any great hurry to overthrow the existing power structure in the hopes that the new boss is better than the old boss. When you look around the world and throughout history, I'd say the odds of that are pretty slim at best.

 

[xotoxi]

I live in a thatched-roof mud hut, wearing a loin cloth made from the skin of a lamb that I slaughtered by violently twisting its neck. I grow all of my crops, and till the soil with my bare hands.

I eat cheese made from my wife's breastmilk, which I hand churned.

The only item that I own that was made by a corporation is my computer...and of course my cable modem.

 

[Said1]

I live in a thatched-roof mud hut, wearing a loin cloth made from the skin of a lamb that I slaughtered by violently twisting its neck. I grow all of my crops, and till the soil with my bare hands.

I eat cheese made from my wife's breastmilk, which I hand churned.

The only item that I own that was made by a corporation is my computer...and of course my cable modem.

I own nothing. I'm posting from a public institution, where I will be spend lots of time. Voluntarily of course.

 

[KittenKoder]

I own everything! I even own YOU!

*hides*