Can Obamacare be Fixed?

[dblack]

Justice is insuring that people who break the law are held accountable.

Health care is insuring that people aflicted by disease or injury get restored to health.

You see a connection?

What is an unjust law? Give me a definition and an example.

A law that dictates behavior, rather than protects rights. ACA's individual mandate is a fine example.

All laws dictate consequences for behavior that imposes on others. We each have a right to live without unnecessary imposition by others. Your freedom can't be at my expense. Do you agree?

Yes, but as I've stated repeatedly, you are presuming that people who do not have insurance will impose on you. That is not necessarily the case. Our justice system doesn't operate on presumption

 

[PMZ]

A law that dictates behavior, rather than protects rights. ACA's individual mandate is a fine example.

All laws dictate consequences for behavior that imposes on others. We each have a right to live without unnecessary imposition by others. Your freedom can't be at my expense. Do you agree?

Yes, but as I've stated repeatedly, you are presuming that people who do not have insurance will impose on you. That is not necessarily the case. Our justice system doesn't operate on presumption

The only way that your "system" would work is if people gave up the survival instinct. How do you accomplish that?

 

[dblack]

All laws dictate consequences for behavior that imposes on others. We each have a right to live without unnecessary imposition by others. Your freedom can't be at my expense. Do you agree?

Yes, but as I've stated repeatedly, you are presuming that people who do not have insurance will impose on you. That is not necessarily the case. Our justice system doesn't operate on presumption

The only way that your "system" would work is if people gave up the survival instinct. How do you accomplish that?

I'm not proposing a 'system'.

 

[PMZ]

Yes, but as I've stated repeatedly, you are presuming that people who do not have insurance will impose on you. That is not necessarily the case. Our justice system doesn't operate on presumption

The only way that your "system" would work is if people gave up the survival instinct. How do you accomplish that?

I'm not proposing a 'system'.

You are proposing that people who have no resources for healthcare just give up the instinct for survival. I hope that I never would. And I suspect that most people wouldn't.

 

[dblack]

The only way that your "system" would work is if people gave up the survival instinct. How do you accomplish that?

I'm not proposing a 'system'.

You are proposing that people who have no resources for healthcare just give up the instinct for survival. I hope that I never would. And I suspect that most people wouldn't.

I'm proposing that you mind your own business, and stop trying to tell other people how to live.

 

[PMZ]

I'm not proposing a 'system'.

You are proposing that people who have no resources for healthcare just give up the instinct for survival. I hope that I never would. And I suspect that most people wouldn't.

I'm proposing that you mind your own business, and stop trying to tell other people how to live.

Not when they try to impose what's best for them on me. I am free.

 

[dblack]

You are proposing that people who have no resources for healthcare just give up the instinct for survival. I hope that I never would. And I suspect that most people wouldn't.

I'm proposing that you mind your own business, and stop trying to tell other people how to live.

Not when they try to impose what's best for them on me. I am free.

Stow your presumptions. If people impose on you, we can punish them. Until they do, mind your own business.

 

[PMZ]

I'm proposing that you mind your own business, and stop trying to tell other people how to live.

Not when they try to impose what's best for them on me. I am free.

Stow your presumptions. If people impose on you, we can punish them. Until they do, mind your own business.

I'm fine with folks who live their lives independant of mine and successfully. That's my goal too. People who have suffered from misfortune, I try to share my good fortune with. People who have the same good fortune as I, but want more, I ignore.

Those that can afford to take care of themselves, I expect to. Those that can't, I help.

That's Obamacare.

 

[dblack]

Not when they try to impose what's best for them on me. I am free.

Stow your presumptions. If people impose on you, we can punish them. Until they do, mind your own business.

I'm fine with folks who live their lives independant of mine and successfully. That's my goal too. People who have suffered from misfortune, I try to share my good fortune with. People who have the same good fortune as I, but want more, I ignore.

Those that can afford to take care of themselves, I expect to. Those that can't, I help.

That's Obamacare.

No it's not. Obamacare is about people who want to avoid helping others. You want to force others to buy insurance so you won't be bothered.

 

[PMZ]

Stow your presumptions. If people impose on you, we can punish them. Until they do, mind your own business.

I'm fine with folks who live their lives independant of mine and successfully. That's my goal too. People who have suffered from misfortune, I try to share my good fortune with. People who have the same good fortune as I, but want more, I ignore.

Those that can afford to take care of themselves, I expect to. Those that can't, I help.

That's Obamacare.

No it's not. Obamacare is about people who want to avoid helping others. You want to force others to buy insurance so you won't be bothered.

If you can afford to take care of yourself, I expect you to. Of you are not paid enough to, I will make up for that.

Pretty simple. Others may have a different standard. If you are one of them, state your standard.

 

[dblack]

I'm fine with folks who live their lives independant of mine and successfully. That's my goal too. People who have suffered from misfortune, I try to share my good fortune with. People who have the same good fortune as I, but want more, I ignore.

Those that can afford to take care of themselves, I expect to. Those that can't, I help.

That's Obamacare.

No it's not. Obamacare is about people who want to avoid helping others. You want to force others to buy insurance so you won't be bothered.

If you can afford to take care of yourself, I expect you to. Of you are not paid enough to, I will make up for that.

Pretty simple. Others may have a different standard. If you are one of them, state your standard.

Apparently, you expect people who can take care of themselves to buy insurance.

 

[PMZ]

No it's not. Obamacare is about people who want to avoid helping others. You want to force others to buy insurance so you won't be bothered.

If you can afford to take care of yourself, I expect you to. Of you are not paid enough to, I will make up for that.

Pretty simple. Others may have a different standard. If you are one of them, state your standard.

Apparently, you expect people who can take care of themselves to buy insurance.

That's how they take care of themselves unless they are multi millionaires.

 

[Bern80]

Anybody doubting Republican brain washing only has to read the posts here worrying that the insurance companies are not going to be able to make enough profit due to the regulations of Obamacare. Clearly the message from the insurance companies.

Let's throw them more money! Let's make their business easier by eliminating competition. Let the flimflam roll.

What a bunch of puppets.

Actually it was Obama that assured we have to throw them our money. And it reduces competetion by narrowing people's chocies thanks to Obamacare mandates about what all health care plans must offer. I'm not too worried about them making a profit. They will. The premiums of the young and healthy are simply going to go up to accomplish that.

Explain how ACA manages to "narrow people's chocies".

Simple. It mandates what coverages people must purchase. A particular coverage within that plan, like say, drug rehabilitation coverage, I may have CHOSEN not to purchase. Now I don't have that choice. Think of it like grocery shopping. The cart is your entire policy. The things you put in the cart are the various coverages you want on your plan. Obama basically has put a bunch of items in the cart before you even start shopping. Items I may not want, but not only am I required to have them, I am required to pay for them on top of the coverage I actually do want. Hence why premium rates on the individual market are going up.

 

[Bern80]

If you can afford to take care of yourself, I expect you to. Of you are not paid enough to, I will make up for that.

Pretty simple. Others may have a different standard. If you are one of them, state your standard.

Apparently, you expect people who can take care of themselves to buy insurance.

That's how they take care of themselves unless they are multi millionaires.

I think he means why require people to pay for insurance if they have the means of paying for their own medical care without it.

 

[PMZ]

Actually it was Obama that assured we have to throw them our money. And it reduces competetion by narrowing people's chocies thanks to Obamacare mandates about what all health care plans must offer. I'm not too worried about them making a profit. They will. The premiums of the young and healthy are simply going to go up to accomplish that.

Explain how ACA manages to "narrow people's chocies".

Simple. It mandates what coverages people must purchase. A particular coverage within that plan, like say, drug rehabilitation coverage, I may have CHOSEN not to purchase. Now I don't have that choice. Think of it like grocery shopping. The cart is your entire policy. The things you put in the cart are the various coverages you want on your plan. Obama basically has put a bunch of items in the cart before you even start shopping. Items I may not want, but not only am I required to have them, I am required to pay for them on top of the coverage I actually do want. Hence why premium rates on the individual market are going up.

Premiums are going up because health care costs are going up as they do every year.

If it wasn't for the Obamacare coverage requirements irresponsible people would just buy minimum coverage and we'd still be at risk of having to pay their bills.

 

[PMZ]

Apparently, you expect people who can take care of themselves to buy insurance.

That's how they take care of themselves unless they are multi millionaires.

I think he means why require people to pay for insurance if they have the means of paying for their own medical care without it.

Million dollar hospital bills are not that unusual.

 

[dblack]

Explain how ACA manages to "narrow people's chocies".

Simple. It mandates what coverages people must purchase. A particular coverage within that plan, like say, drug rehabilitation coverage, I may have CHOSEN not to purchase. Now I don't have that choice. Think of it like grocery shopping. The cart is your entire policy. The things you put in the cart are the various coverages you want on your plan. Obama basically has put a bunch of items in the cart before you even start shopping. Items I may not want, but not only am I required to have them, I am required to pay for them on top of the coverage I actually do want. Hence why premium rates on the individual market are going up.

Premiums are going up because health care costs are going up as they do every year.

If it wasn't for the Obamacare coverage requirements irresponsible people would just buy minimum coverage and we'd still be at risk of having to pay their bills.

I just can't get past the sort of no-win situation you're willing to force on people. You want laws to exist that will force you to pay for those who don't have insurance, and then you want to use those as justification for punishing them for not having insurance. If you don't want to pay for the 'irresponsible', just get rid of the laws forcing you to. Why drag everyone else through your inner conflict?

 

[dblack]

In the end, I can't help but see the whole 'personal responsibility' angle as just a bullshit excuse. The point of the mandate is to compensate insurance companies for the banning of pre-existing condition exclusions. A quid pro quo in an attempt to socialize health care costs via private corporations - using unwilling customers as the financing mechanism.

If we want to socialize health care costs, we should do it honestly via taxes and government. Piping it through the insurance industry is, essentially, privatizing tax collection - outsourcing it to corporations who will profit from it. It's a seriously screwed up way to run things.

 

[Bern80]

Premiums are going up because health care costs are going up as they do every year.

You are truly drinking the Obama kool aide if you think the reason premiums are going up for some is because of increased cost by providers (though Obamacare is making that go up too). The reason premiums are going up is obvious. You have to pay more to get more and Obama has mandated that people buy more. Next would be the community rating mandate. Again obvious to see what's going to happen; if a region is required to avg. the rate of a certain plan among its regional risk pool obviously the rates for the young and healthy are going to go up. AND when you you tell insurance companies you can't drop (one mandate I actually agree with) and can't deny on the basis of pre-existing conditions it ultimately means insurance companies are going to be paying a lot more covering sick people. The money to do that comes in the form of increased premiums.

If it wasn't for the Obamacare coverage requirements irresponsible people would just buy minimum coverage and we'd still be at risk of having to pay their bills.

This is nonsensical as well. Why would you pay someone x amount of dollars per month for health coverage that doesn't actually cover what you need. If the above is your logic why pay a premium at all? The problem with the above is, unlike what you contest, liberals refuse to let people bare the consequences of their actions. The alternative is NOT that everyone else foots the bill. The alternative is we stop treating people who can't or won't pay.

This

 

[Bern80]

That's how they take care of themselves unless they are multi millionaires.

I think he means why require people to pay for insurance if they have the means of paying for their own medical care without it.

Million dollar hospital bills are not that unusual.

Million dollar hospital bills? Actually yes, that's pretty unusual. Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars maybe. But those are the types of bills you should have insurance for. What we're saying here, is don't make a relatively young healthy individual over pay for a bunch of things he/she doesn't need. A yearly physical is maybe a few hundred bucks at most and that would probably be the extend of their medical use in a year, which a person can easily manage paying out of pocket. And don't come back with well that's still too much for some people because you've already essentially said a few hundred dollars per month in the insurance YOU are requiring them to buy is perfectly reasonable.