Collective bargaining at itsfinest

[Late2TheParty]

Public sector unions should be abolished.. the only people at the table are the unions and the people they buy off.

YEAH. Hey while we are at it:

Eliminate overtime pay

Eliminate minimum wage.

Eliminate worker safety.

Yeah totally with you!!! Whooooo!!!! Slavery. Boy I can't wait to work for free. Thanks Soggy, fighting for true colonial values.

The whole opposition to public sector unions is that they effectively band together to help elect the guy that will be opposite them on the bargaining table.

It has nothing to do with rolling back the clock to the 19th century, imo.

 

[WillowTree]

Public sector unions should be abolished.. the only people at the table are the unions and the people they buy off.

Aboslutely! And that's where all this is headed.

 

[Jack Fate]

Public sector unions should be abolished.. the only people at the table are the unions and the people they buy off.

Basically, you're saying that public sector unions should be abolished because of government corruption. In that case, lobbyists should be abolished, as should campaign financing. Along similar lines, guns should be abolished because people misuse them.

I agree that government corruption is an issue always which people should resist. But saying that we should restrict the rights of people because the government is corrupt strikes me as one of the most dangerous things we could possibly ever think in a free society. We need to hold government more accountable so that it will not be bought off by corruption. Not limit people's rights because someone might misuse them.

Nope. Unions and corrupt politicians are the cause of the corruption. Not government. If collective bargaining is a right then everyone would have it. Try again.

 

[spectrumc01]

You know, I have no problem with any of this, as far as the workers go. If the employer has agreed to such terms, then that's on the employer, plain and simple. If I sit down at the table with you and work out a business deal that ends up being foolish for me, then that is my fault for being foolish in my business deals. Same thing applies.

Absolutely right.

 

[noose4]

Some of these are indefensible.

Calling in sick and getting overtime?

Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours.

Remember those teachers taking their students out of class to protest? Now I know why they like collective bargaining.

Due to a 1982 provision of their collective bargaining agreement, Milwaukee Public School teachers actually receive two pensions upon retirement instead of one. The contribution to the second pension is equal to 4.2% of a teacher’s salary, with the school district making 100% of the contribution, just like they do for the first pension. This extra benefit costs taxpayers more than $16 million per year.

I love this one.

Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit. Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, “Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers."

CARPE DIEM: Collective Bargaining Abuse Examples in Wisconsin

Guess what people, teachers might not be the problem, but their union is.

The union is not the problem the person who agreed with these conditions may be though.

Do you refuse to take more than you can get in a business negotiation?

 

[spectrumc01]

Curious to see how the Police union fares when they are next on the chopping block, and who will defend them? Now is where we find out what we value more.

It's easy for people to get pissed at the teachers union for the failure of students to apply themselves. Will these same pissed off people be as mad with the police union?

 

[Late2TheParty]

We're getting there.

It will take a cycle or two, but the public unions will be gone, or the exception, by 2015.

Either abolished or prohibited from political activities.

What about corporations? Should they be abolished? Because if a corporation can lobbying for their own interests, why can't unions? Because you disagree with them. Totally makes sense. Rights for people I agree with, the American way.

I'm for corporations being abolished from the political system as well. Shareholders' money should not be used to fund politics they disagree with.

 

[Jack Fate]

Curious to see how the Police union fares when they are next on the chopping block, and who will defend them? Now is where we find out what we value more.

It's easy for people to get pissed at the teachers union for the failure of students to apply themselves. Will these same pissed off people be as mad with the police union?

I sure am. The cops in Spokane and the county are corrupt. It's bad around here. We have cops beating up senior citizens in handcuffs for simply mouthing off. Shootings by cops every other week it seems like and nothing is done about it. Cops are like God around here and there are quite a few who are nasty. Not all, but enough to be a problem. You can't get rid of them. Wonder why?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I just want to be clear on this:

I would NEVER have signed that agreement, and I would be calling for the head of the guy who did IMMEDIATELY when I saw it.

But gekaap is right. I hold people to contracts they don't want to fulfill all the time. Occasionally, they get me.

If we stop honoring the contract, good or bad, then the next contract doesn't mean anything either.

It was a great deal for the union and a horrible deal for the government. The way you solve it is EXACTLY what Walker is doing in Wisconsin. You eliminate the bad stuff, and out in the good, and honor the contract until it is fulfilled.

Frequent business between the same two parties is very often a "your turn to win" scenario. Under that contract, it was the union's turn to win. Under the next one, it is the government's turn.

The thing is, Walker is not trying to invalidate the contracts that are already signed, he is just trying to prevent them from making more contracts like this in the future.

 

[Claudette]

I just want to be clear on this:

I would NEVER have signed that agreement, and I would be calling for the head of the guy who did IMMEDIATELY when I saw it.

But gekaap is right. I hold people to contracts they don't want to fulfill all the time. Occasionally, they get me.

If we stop honoring the contract, good or bad, then the next contract doesn't mean anything either.

It was a great deal for the union and a horrible deal for the government. The way you solve it is EXACTLY what Walker is doing in Wisconsin. You eliminate the bad stuff, and out in the good, and honor the contract until it is fulfilled.

Frequent business between the same two parties is very often a "your turn to win" scenario. Under that contract, it was the union's turn to win. Under the next one, it is the government's turn.

The thing is, Walker is not trying to invalidate the contracts that are already signed, he is just trying to prevent them from making more contracts like this in the future.

I think Gov Walker whould make public all the deals that collective bargaining gained for the Unions. Every single one of them. Let the taxpayers know what sweetheart deals they were paying for.

I also agree with Mini and gkapp. The contracts have to be honored until the time comes to renegotiate everything. I also agree that whoever agreed to these sweetheart deals outta be shot. Jesus. He sure wasn't looking out for the taxpayers in his State.

 

[Big Fitz]

You know, I have no problem with any of this, as far as the workers go. If the employer has agreed to such terms, then that's on the employer, plain and simple. If I sit down at the table with you and work out a business deal that ends up being foolish for me, then that is my fault for being foolish in my business deals. Same thing applies.

Absolutely right. And now, the governments are either forcing renegotiation or waiting for the contracts to end because these contracts are unsustainable and they have chosen poorly previously.

So when time comes to get a new contract, you can fully expect many of these fun perks to go away because they are unaffordable. And if the union won't play along, they will be busted because the alternative is mass layoffs or financial collapse. I suspect this sick leave stacking, will be starting to model private sector versions too, which become 'use it or lose it' factored yearly. Or that cap and cannot increase once met.

I know my union's starting to panic. This situation could not have occurred at a worse time for them. But I'll say this. If I get to keep my job at most of my pay, or just with cut benefits, I'm game. If they strike, I'd seriously consider crossing the line.

 

[ClosedCaption]

You mean the unions asked employers for something and they agreed to it. Dam those Union bastards asking for stuff then getting it.

I keep asking repubs name ONE entity that is free of waste, fraud and or abuse. Once that entity is identified then lets put that thing in charge of government and unions. Just need one name

 

[Two Thumbs]

You know, I have no problem with any of this, as far as the workers go. If the employer has agreed to such terms, then that's on the employer, plain and simple. If I sit down at the table with you and work out a business deal that ends up being foolish for me, then that is my fault for being foolish in my business deals. Same thing applies.

Give us this comical demand or we strike! Leaving you with no one to teach or keep the prisoners safe!

That's how you may think the conversation went.

but it didn't

Pol; Wow, that's a nutty demand
union; We donated to get you elected. Want us to do it again?
Pol; But that's the peoples money.
union; we don't give a damn
Pol; neither do I really. Just make sure to cover us when the shit hits the fan.
Union; no problem, we will bus people in if we have to.

 

[gekaap]

Nope. Unions and corrupt politicians are the cause of the corruption. Not government.

Care to explain the difference between "government" and the politicians who hold office?

If collective bargaining is a right then everyone would have it. Try again.

You're question begging.

 

[gekaap]

Give us this comical demand or we strike! Leaving you with no one to teach or keep the prisoners safe!

That's how you may think the conversation went.

but it didn't

Pol; Wow, that's a nutty demand
union; We donated to get you elected. Want us to do it again?
Pol; But that's the peoples money.
union; we don't give a damn
Pol; neither do I really. Just make sure to cover us when the shit hits the fan.
Union; no problem, we will bus people in if we have to.

Then that's an issue for the ballot box, isn't it?

 

[editec]

The complaint that public unions also unduly influence elections and the resutling actions of the POLS they put into office, I totally agree with that complaint.

But corporations ALSO unduly influence elections and the resutling actions of the POLS they put into office.

And I cannot help but note that very VERY few of the people here complaining about UNIONS, can't quite make the leap to see that corporations do the same DAMNED THING.

Why is that? one wonders.

The right wing tools and fools can understand the complex machinations of elections leading to public corruption when it comes to unions easily enough.

But they cannot quite get their heads around the INDENTICAL PROBLEM when it comes to their corporate masters.

Odd, isn't it?

 

[Big Fitz]

Give us this comical demand or we strike! Leaving you with no one to teach or keep the prisoners safe!

That's how you may think the conversation went.

but it didn't

Pol; Wow, that's a nutty demand
union; We donated to get you elected. Want us to do it again?
Pol; But that's the peoples money.
union; we don't give a damn
Pol; neither do I really. Just make sure to cover us when the shit hits the fan.
Union; no problem, we will bus people in if we have to.

Then that's an issue for the ballot box, isn't it?

And when union money co-opts the process? How is this not a conflict of interests or not corrupt?

Take union money out of politics, or give taxpayers a direct veto vote on public sector union contracts.

 

[gekaap]

And when union money co-opts the process? How is this not a conflict of interests or not corrupt?

Take union money out of politics, or give taxpayers a direct veto vote on public sector union contracts.

How is union money co-opting the process? Are unions paying for voter fraud? Are they paying for voter intimidation? When voters cast their ballots, they are responsible for their votes. If a given politician is too cozy with any given donor, that is a matter for the voters to deal with.

I notice that nobody seems to object to a corporation donating to candidates and elected officials. Locally, many large businesses can contribute to campaigns of local politicians, who will then reward those companies with tax breaks, while non contributing companies do not get the benefit of tax breaks. Next thing you know, K-Mart is going out of business because Wal-Mart had their hands in politicians pockets. And you, the citizen, now are subjected to a quasi monopoly because there's nowhere else to go for your goods, except the mall that's an hour away. Just as an example....

 

[Two Thumbs]

Give us this comical demand or we strike! Leaving you with no one to teach or keep the prisoners safe!

That's how you may think the conversation went.

but it didn't

Pol; Wow, that's a nutty demand
union; We donated to get you elected. Want us to do it again?
Pol; But that's the peoples money.
union; we don't give a damn
Pol; neither do I really. Just make sure to cover us when the shit hits the fan.
Union; no problem, we will bus people in if we have to.

Then that's an issue for the ballot box, isn't it?

Union rep to union member.

Rep; This is who we are voting for.
member; ok


There is no asking why. Unions know how to work the system better than anyone

 

[Two Thumbs]

The complaint that public unions also unduly influence elections and the resutling actions of the POLS they put into office, I totally agree with that complaint.

But corporations ALSO unduly influence elections and the resutling actions of the POLS they put into office.

And I cannot help but note that very VERY few of the people here complaining about UNIONS, can't quite make the leap to see that corporations do the same DAMNED THING.

Why is that? one wonders.

The right wing tools and fools can understand the complex machinations of elections leading to public corruption when it comes to unions easily enough.

But they cannot quite get their heads around the INDENTICAL PROBLEM when it comes to their corporate masters.

Odd, isn't it?

My tax money goes to pay public unions workers.
they are forced to join the union and pay it dues (my money)
the union, that doesn't care about me, spends that money to get elected who ever it wants.

To avoid paying taxes to a PU, I would have to move to a state that has none. I currently know of none.

If a corp has a union, I don't have to buy their product or service, there fore they may never get to spend a dime of my money.

There is a VAST difference.