CDZ Concealed Carry Ethics, Obligations and Mindset

[yiostheoy]

i think the cc has made my son much more aware of his actions ....road rage is totally gone....he is much calmer....and he in into the cc....as he says...if he has his pants on...he has a pistol on...

Thanks Bones

A CCW permit holder no longer has the right to flip off everyone on the road. The risk that someone might escalate the situation is far too great. In fact I find that I am more likely to take great care in my actions and will seek to avoid any and all confrontations

I have found that I have become a more cautious driver.

I obey the speed limit even though nobody else does.

I don't tailgate and don't allow anyone else to tailgate me.

I stay away from other cars in traffic.

I leave myself an escape route in every circumstance. This is mostly due to having been boxed-in at an intersection during a major earthquake that lasted a long time while nobody could move.

 

[Divine Wind]

Really? Who has your insurance ever shot?
Do you worry about someone breaking into your home and stealing your insurance?
Has your insurance ever been used against you?
Has a kid ever found insurance and shot someone or themselves?

I get what you are trying to say. But the anology just isn't quite correct.

On the other hand, I am not a person (especially when young) that you would have wanted carrying a gun. Trust me on this.
Fortunately I know myself well enough to have avoided ccw.
I trust my situational awareness to keep me out of trouble. So far it has worked. Mess around with my family and home and I wouldn't have the same restraint about grabbing my gun.

In other words, my carrying a gun would not make me more polite. It would make me a bigger asshole. Like it does a lot of people.

Do you have fire or life insurance? If so, does this mean you live in fear of a fire or dying? Do you really think insurance will stop a fire or prevent you from dying? Why do you have it?

 

[M14 Shooter]

I've seen many people on this board that equate CCW with a gung ho wannabe cowboy just itching to slap leather and shoot a bad guy.

Because these people know they do not have a sound argument against the law abiding carrying a weapon for self-defense.

 

[Hiryuu]

Is it ok that drug dealers and gang bangers feel the same way? Gotta protect the family and turf.

What are they doing dealing drugs or gangbanging if they have any concern for the welfare of their family?

 

[2aguy]

I think we can all agree that it is perfectly reasonable and socially, morally, and ethically acceptable to want to protect your family from harm. Can't we?

Is it ok that drug dealers and gang bangers feel the same way? Gotta protect the family and turf.

They can feel that way...but because they have committed crimes they have lost their right to have guns..........but, they are still the ones most likely to actually murder people with guns....illegal guns.

 

[2aguy]

I think we can all agree that it is perfectly reasonable and socially, morally, and ethically acceptable to want to protect your family from harm. Can't we?

Is it ok that drug dealers and gang bangers feel the same way? Gotta protect the family and turf.

Are you really trying to make an equivalency between a drug or turf war with protecting your family in your own home?

That is the only way anti gunners can make an argument......the facts, the truth and reality do not support their side of the debate.....so they have no other way to debate the issue.

 

[2aguy]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

Really? Who has your insurance ever shot?
Do you worry about someone breaking into your home and stealing your insurance?
Has your insurance ever been used against you?
Has a kid ever found insurance and shot someone or themselves?

I get what you are trying to say. But the anology just isn't quite correct.

On the other hand, I am not a person (especially when young) that you would have wanted carrying a gun. Trust me on this.
Fortunately I know myself well enough to have avoided ccw.
I trust my situational awareness to keep me out of trouble. So far it has worked. Mess around with my family and home and I wouldn't have the same restraint about grabbing my gun.

In other words, my carrying a gun would not make me more polite. It would make me a bigger asshole. Like it does a lot of people.

Don't worry...we have jails for that kind of behavior....

 

[GaryDog]

I've seen many people on this board that equate CCW with a gung ho wannabe cowboy just itching to slap leather and shoot a bad guy.

The truth of the matter is that CCW permit holders are less likely to get involved in avoidable altercations not more likely. Somehow that fact is another reason to criticize CCW permit holders as in the "Why didn't that CCW person stop a crime?"

I would like to reference anyone here with a stance pro or anti CCW to read any of the excellent books and articles by Massad Ayoob on the subject of concealed carry. He explores the legal, ethical and practical issues of concealed carry.

First and foremost carrying a weapon in public is a very serious responsibility and the vast majority of CCW permit holders approach it as such. It's easy to be cavalier on an anonymous message board. I'm guilty of it as many if not all of us are here. I will avoid that tendency here and I encourage anyone responding to do so as well.

I think we can all agree that it is perfectly reasonable and socially, morally, and ethically acceptable to want to protect your family from harm. Can't we?

Now with that in mind the argument of the likelihood of needing a firearm to defend yourself and/or your family is often used as an argument against even owning a firearm never mind carrying concealed.

After all how many times do people get killed by criminals in their own home? The answer to that question is the same as anywhere else. Just once.

People take precautions against things that have a low likelihood of happening all the because the result of those things happening just once is unthinkable not because it is believed the danger is actually greater than it is.

I don't want to start this thread with an overly long post so let's start here

Thank you

I think you're confusing this with our objection to open-carry zealots.

 

[GaryDog]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

 

[2aguy]

I've seen many people on this board that equate CCW with a gung ho wannabe cowboy just itching to slap leather and shoot a bad guy.

The truth of the matter is that CCW permit holders are less likely to get involved in avoidable altercations not more likely. Somehow that fact is another reason to criticize CCW permit holders as in the "Why didn't that CCW person stop a crime?"

I would like to reference anyone here with a stance pro or anti CCW to read any of the excellent books and articles by Massad Ayoob on the subject of concealed carry. He explores the legal, ethical and practical issues of concealed carry.

First and foremost carrying a weapon in public is a very serious responsibility and the vast majority of CCW permit holders approach it as such. It's easy to be cavalier on an anonymous message board. I'm guilty of it as many if not all of us are here. I will avoid that tendency here and I encourage anyone responding to do so as well.

I think we can all agree that it is perfectly reasonable and socially, morally, and ethically acceptable to want to protect your family from harm. Can't we?

Now with that in mind the argument of the likelihood of needing a firearm to defend yourself and/or your family is often used as an argument against even owning a firearm never mind carrying concealed.

After all how many times do people get killed by criminals in their own home? The answer to that question is the same as anywhere else. Just once.

People take precautions against things that have a low likelihood of happening all the because the result of those things happening just once is unthinkable not because it is believed the danger is actually greater than it is.

I don't want to start this thread with an overly long post so let's start here

Thank you

I think you're confusing this with our objection to open-carry zealots.

Who are the zealots....oh....you mean like that "Sit at the Front of the Bus" zealots in the 1960s? Or the "we want to sit at the lunch counter zealots" in the 1960s.....? Or the "we don't want to pay a tax to vote, or take a literacy test to vote" zealots.....you mean like them?

 

[2aguy]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

That is a lie.......guns are not the issue.......the actual issue in shootings in the home......prior criminal history of the occupant, drug use of the occupant, alcohol abuse of the occupant, current criminal history of the occupant....

If you are a normal person, who is law abiding....guns are not dangerous to your family. The anti gun research targeted the worst communities to do their studies....and then said that applied to normal, law abiding gun owners....

That is one of the first examples of the anti gun Bait and Switch.........

 

[2aguy]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

and it didn't take you long to go right to sex with a gun.....look....you really, really need to get help with that....we start talking about firearms and you immediately want to have sex with a gun......get help...fast.

 

[GaryDog]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

That is a lie.......guns are not the issue.......the actual issue in shootings in the home......prior criminal history of the occupant, drug use of the occupant, alcohol abuse of the occupant, current criminal history of the occupant....

If you are a normal person, who is law abiding....guns are not dangerous to your family. The anti gun research targeted the worst communities to do their studies....and then said that applied to normal, law abiding gun owners....

That is one of the first examples of the anti gun Bait and Switch.........

Another sign of our post-factual democracy is that you actually believe this /\/\/\/\

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

 

[2aguy]

I've seen many people on this board that equate CCW with a gung ho wannabe cowboy just itching to slap leather and shoot a bad guy.

The truth of the matter is that CCW permit holders are less likely to get involved in avoidable altercations not more likely. Somehow that fact is another reason to criticize CCW permit holders as in the "Why didn't that CCW person stop a crime?"

I would like to reference anyone here with a stance pro or anti CCW to read any of the excellent books and articles by Massad Ayoob on the subject of concealed carry. He explores the legal, ethical and practical issues of concealed carry.

First and foremost carrying a weapon in public is a very serious responsibility and the vast majority of CCW permit holders approach it as such. It's easy to be cavalier on an anonymous message board. I'm guilty of it as many if not all of us are here. I will avoid that tendency here and I encourage anyone responding to do so as well.

I think we can all agree that it is perfectly reasonable and socially, morally, and ethically acceptable to want to protect your family from harm. Can't we?

Now with that in mind the argument of the likelihood of needing a firearm to defend yourself and/or your family is often used as an argument against even owning a firearm never mind carrying concealed.

After all how many times do people get killed by criminals in their own home? The answer to that question is the same as anywhere else. Just once.

People take precautions against things that have a low likelihood of happening all the because the result of those things happening just once is unthinkable not because it is believed the danger is actually greater than it is.

I don't want to start this thread with an overly long post so let's start here

Thank you

I think you're confusing this with our objection to open-carry zealots.

Who are the zealots....oh....you mean like that "Sit at the Front of the Bus" zealots in the 1960s? Or the "we want to sit at the lunch counter zealots" in the 1960s.....? Or the "we don't want to pay a tax to vote, or take a literacy test to vote" zealots.....you mean like them?

Right, you gun owners are totally akin to blacks seeking civil rights. Can't imagine how that comparison is a total fallacy.

It is exactly the same.....Civil Rights denied are civil rights denied.....

 

[GaryDog]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

and it didn't take you long to go right to sex with a gun.....look....you really, really need to get help with that....we start talking about firearms and you immediately want to have sex with a gun......get help...fast.

Uh, missed where I said or implied that. Read much?

 

[GaryDog]

I've seen many people on this board that equate CCW with a gung ho wannabe cowboy just itching to slap leather and shoot a bad guy.

The truth of the matter is that CCW permit holders are less likely to get involved in avoidable altercations not more likely. Somehow that fact is another reason to criticize CCW permit holders as in the "Why didn't that CCW person stop a crime?"

I would like to reference anyone here with a stance pro or anti CCW to read any of the excellent books and articles by Massad Ayoob on the subject of concealed carry. He explores the legal, ethical and practical issues of concealed carry.

First and foremost carrying a weapon in public is a very serious responsibility and the vast majority of CCW permit holders approach it as such. It's easy to be cavalier on an anonymous message board. I'm guilty of it as many if not all of us are here. I will avoid that tendency here and I encourage anyone responding to do so as well.

I think we can all agree that it is perfectly reasonable and socially, morally, and ethically acceptable to want to protect your family from harm. Can't we?

Now with that in mind the argument of the likelihood of needing a firearm to defend yourself and/or your family is often used as an argument against even owning a firearm never mind carrying concealed.

After all how many times do people get killed by criminals in their own home? The answer to that question is the same as anywhere else. Just once.

People take precautions against things that have a low likelihood of happening all the because the result of those things happening just once is unthinkable not because it is believed the danger is actually greater than it is.

I don't want to start this thread with an overly long post so let's start here

Thank you

I think you're confusing this with our objection to open-carry zealots.

Who are the zealots....oh....you mean like that "Sit at the Front of the Bus" zealots in the 1960s? Or the "we want to sit at the lunch counter zealots" in the 1960s.....? Or the "we don't want to pay a tax to vote, or take a literacy test to vote" zealots.....you mean like them?

Right, you gun owners are totally akin to blacks seeking civil rights. Can't imagine how that comparison is a total fallacy.

It is exactly the same.....Civil Rights denied are civil rights denied.....

I think most blacks present at the lunch counter, bus, et al, would disagree. As would most other sane human beings.

 

[2aguy]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

That is a lie.......guns are not the issue.......the actual issue in shootings in the home......prior criminal history of the occupant, drug use of the occupant, alcohol abuse of the occupant, current criminal history of the occupant....

If you are a normal person, who is law abiding....guns are not dangerous to your family. The anti gun research targeted the worst communities to do their studies....and then said that applied to normal, law abiding gun owners....

That is one of the first examples of the anti gun Bait and Switch.........

Another sign of our post-factual democracy is that you actually believe this /\/\/\/\

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

You were already shown how that link is wrong.......I have linked showing how mass shooters choose gun free zones....by actual mass shooters using their notes, videos, confessions, wire taps, ..........and actual research from both public and private researchers.........

 

[westwall]

I think we can all agree that it is perfectly reasonable and socially, morally, and ethically acceptable to want to protect your family from harm. Can't we?

Is it ok that drug dealers and gang bangers feel the same way? Gotta protect the family and turf.

But what you are talking about is fundamentally different. Their "turf" actually belongs to other people. Thus they are INVADING someone else's "turf" from the get go. Furthermore, when they engage in gang behavior that is illegal from the get go. Yes, gang bangers want to defend themselves from other gangs, but, they are already violating other peoples rights while doing so. Thus your argument holds no water.

 

[2aguy]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

That is a lie.......guns are not the issue.......the actual issue in shootings in the home......prior criminal history of the occupant, drug use of the occupant, alcohol abuse of the occupant, current criminal history of the occupant....

If you are a normal person, who is law abiding....guns are not dangerous to your family. The anti gun research targeted the worst communities to do their studies....and then said that applied to normal, law abiding gun owners....

That is one of the first examples of the anti gun Bait and Switch.........

Another sign of our post-factual democracy is that you actually believe this /\/\/\/\

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

All of this research shows they are wrong on a street level crime basis...

I just averaged the studies at the bottom......I took only studies that exluded military and police gun use.....notice, theses studies which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[2aguy]

Why do people buy insurance?

Same thing.

The last thing I ever want to do in life is fire my weapon because of necessity.

This might be a valid argument if buying insurance didn't INCREASE your likelihood of catastrophe, rather than mitigate a possible catastrophe.

Statistics show quite plainly that gun owners are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love with a gun they own. It puts them at GREATER risk, not less.

Hence, the argument against owning a gun for self-defense. It's simply not logical that it would help you. That being said, if you have an emotional need for a gun, it's there for you. Sleep well and use a condom.

That is a lie.......guns are not the issue.......the actual issue in shootings in the home......prior criminal history of the occupant, drug use of the occupant, alcohol abuse of the occupant, current criminal history of the occupant....

If you are a normal person, who is law abiding....guns are not dangerous to your family. The anti gun research targeted the worst communities to do their studies....and then said that applied to normal, law abiding gun owners....

That is one of the first examples of the anti gun Bait and Switch.........

Another sign of our post-factual democracy is that you actually believe this /\/\/\/\

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

And here are specific examples of how they are wrong.....

Some details to help you make your guess....

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 15 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)


Temple massacre has some Sikhs mulling gun ownership

The president of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin had only a butter knife on hand, which he used to fight the gunman. He was killed, but his heroic actions were credited for slowing the shooter. Guns were not allowed in the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin.

“No guns [were] allowed in the temple,” Kulbir Singh, an attendee of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, told FoxNews.com. “Everyone knows that it’s not allowed, anywhere in the temple.”