Conservatives Start Speaking Out Against Torture

[WillowTree]

but but but according to the reports we have gotten the waterboarding did result in a positive outcome, it supposedly saved a similar attack on LA. now can you tell me you would rather have seen LA attacked same as NYC? Be honest now..

Yes, because I value the principles of this nation over life. I served in the Marine Corps for 4 years. I risked my life to defend those principles. Remember the soldiers who died fighting for our freedom? They died upholding the Constitution. They didn't swear an oath to protect US citizens, they swore an oath to protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Not extending human rights, even to our prisoners, who may or may not have been plotting to attack us (we don't know since they haven't been tried), goes against habeus corpus.

We are supposed to be a beacon of morality, a nation of hope, the home of the brave, not the home of the brave, except when we're so scared of terrorist attacks that we'll compromise the very pillars upon which our nation was founded.

If terrorists blow up all of the United States becasue we didn't torture prisoners for information, then we'll still win, because we wouldn't let the terror they attempted to use sway us in upholding the Constitution. But if we stop every terrorist attack by torturing prisoners for information, then the terrorists have already won.

With all due respect CM I don't see the dignity in allowing 300 million people die if you could prevent it with a waterboarding in which the victim does not die.. if that's winning I surely don't see it..

 

[catzmeow]

what are my religious beliefs?

Aren't you ostensibly a Christian? I find your bloodthirsty values a rather stark contradiction to the life of Christ.

 

[Yurt]

I won't pre judge you,, but I can't understand how thousands of innocents lying around dead at the hands of terrorists is preferable to waterboarding. can you explain that? cause really this has nothing to do with war,, it's about protecting American cities and lives.. Now if you can explain why thousands of innocents dead is preferable to one waterboarding then I'm willing to listen.. which would be easier for you to stand and watch.. a 9-11 in which you know thousands will die horrible deaths, or a waterboarding in which you are certain the person will be terrified of death but in fact will live.

It has to do with the some of the principles upon which the US was founded: justice, human rights and dignity, equality, and courage.

Waterboarding may not be the rack, or hot irons, or other more medieval ways of torture, but it is still torture.

If a terrorist destroys Denver with a WMD right now and my family and I are killed because a prisoner wasn't tortured for information which would have stopped the attack, then we weren't murdered and we didn't die in vain. We died to uphold the principles upon which the US was founded. We died because the US will not compromise its principles out of fear. If the US does compromise its principles to thwart terrorism, then the terrorists have won. If we torture people, then we are no better than those who have tortured: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, Kim Jong-Il, and Saddam Hussein, et al.

so did people both private and public who did return slaves when the constitution mandated it compromise our principles? what about all those who drank during the prohibition, did they compromise our principles?

 

[catzmeow]

With all due respect CM I don't see the dignity in allowing 300 million people die if you could prevent it with a waterboarding in which the victim does not die.. if that's winning I surely don't see it..

With all due respect, Willow, the number of 300 million is hyperbolic and inflated.

The attack on NYC killed approximately 3,000 victims.

How many people do you think we've tortured in the past 8 years? The numbers are getting close.

Tell me, which is worse? To die suddenly and catastrophically, or to have your humanity stripped from you gradually over months and years in a secret prison with no hope of rescue or release?

 

[Yurt]

how do you reply in this thread it goes way to the right, i'm guessing large photo?

 

[catzmeow]

so did people both private and public who did return slaves when the constitution mandated it compromise our principles? what about all those who drank during the prohibition, did they compromise our principles?

So, your suggestion is that prohibition and slavery are uniquely American values?

 

[WillowTree]

what are my religious beliefs?

Aren't you ostensibly a Christian? I find your bloodthirsty values a rather stark contradiction to the life of Christ.

no madame,, I am most likely an agnostic.. bloodthirsty values?? lol,, I'm anti abortion I'll have you to know,, does waterboarding bring forth blood?

 

[catzmeow]

no madame,, I am most likely an agnostic.. bloodthirsty values?? lol,, I'm anti abortion I'll have you to know,, does waterboarding bring forth blood?

For some reason, I remember you being very unhappy about the "war on Christmas."

I'm not pro-abortion, for the record, so that discussion should take place elsewhere. It's off-topic.

 

[WillowTree]

With all due respect CM I don't see the dignity in allowing 300 million people die if you could prevent it with a waterboarding in which the victim does not die.. if that's winning I surely don't see it..

With all due respect, Willow, the number of 300 million is hyperbolic and inflated.

The attack on NYC killed approximately 3,000 victims.

How many people do you think we've tortured in the past 8 years? The numbers are getting close.

Tell me, which is worse? To die suddenly and catastrophically, or to have your humanity stripped from you gradually over months and years in a secret prison with no hope of rescue or release?

excuse me madame,, I was responding to CM post about letting the whole country die to preserve his white hat! thanks in advance.

 

[catzmeow]

how do you reply in this thread it goes way to the right, i'm guessing large photo?

You can thank Xenophon for the distortion of the thread. He felt a strong need to visually illustrate without checking photo size.

 

[WillowTree]

no madame,, I am most likely an agnostic.. bloodthirsty values?? lol,, I'm anti abortion I'll have you to know,, does waterboarding bring forth blood?

For some reason, I remember you being very unhappy about the "war on Christmas."

I'm not pro-abortion, for the record, so that discussion should take place elsewhere. It's off-topic.

I was unhappy about the war on christmas. just because I'm agnostic does not preclude my unhappiness when I see a group of people persecuted for their religious beliefs. And abortion fits right into this discussion because the left proclaims the moral high ground on "torture" while at the same time thinking nothing of sucking an infants brains out through it's crushed skull.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

so did people both private and public who did return slaves when the constitution mandated it compromise our principles?

Um, no... I don't understand this first sentence in context of your argument.

what about all those who drank during the prohibition, did they compromise our principles?

Is sobriety an American principle?

Or are equality, human dignity, courage, self-reliance, and freedom American principles?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I was responding to CM post about letting the whole country die to preserve his white hat! thanks in advance.

But you see, it isn't my white hat. I'm not letting anybody die, and I'm not torturing anyone. Its what my nation's government does. I didn't vote for Bush (unless you count not voting for Gore in 2000 a vote for Bush - goddamn Green Party...).

All I know is that the United States shouldn't torture. Its wrong. No matter what, its wrong. Its un-American, to use a word coined by the Right. By torturing we no better than Hitler, et al. And we effectively lose to the terrorists and lose the soul of our nation.

I'm not defending terrorists. I'm defending American principles.

 

[catzmeow]

And abortion fits right into this discussion because the left proclaims the moral high ground on "torture" while at the same time thinking nothing of sucking an infants brains out through it's crushed skull.

The problem is that just as much condemnation of government sanctioned torture is coming from actual conservatives as it is from leftists.

I agree with you that the far left is often morally bankrupt, so their attempts to strut around self-righteously on this issue are kind of hideous.

But the fact remains that torture is a distinctly un-American act. Our government should NOT be condoning torture, in ANY circumstance.

Nothing would make me happier than to see Pelosi go down on this issue. She's as morally bankrupt as it gets.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Torture does not work. There have been several experts (SERE school instructors, POW's, retired Generals, etc), who have even publicly stated such.

One retired general who was commanding over in Iraq said that he could get more information, which was much more accurate, and get it in a shorter time, just by giving the person(s) captured medical attention, food, clothing and a couple of cigarettes. Why? If a person is comfortable, they are more likely to relax, and therefore, more likely to let some information slip out.

Torture on the other hand causes pain, and pain tends to make one resist more, as the human animal is hard-wired to survive. Push that survival instinct far enough, and the person being tortured is going to figure out a way to get you to stop, i.e., you tell them what they want to hear.

I heard a SERE instructor for the Army state yesterday on Keith Olberman's show that he could get Sean Hannity (Olberman's biggest rival), to admit that Hannity thinks that Olberman's show is better than his, and he could get him to admit it in less than an hour.

Personally? I'd like to see Hannity put his money where his mouth is, as he stated he would volunteer to be waterboarded (21 April), and when he was called out on it by a former POW, he tried to back out by stating he would do it for charity to support the troops.

Olberman has offered him 1,000 for every SECOND that he is waterboarded for the charity, with allowances to double it if Hannity admits that waterboarding is torture, after he goes through with it.

Hannity still has yet to respond, but, just like every other GOP blowhard, he's gonna figure out a way to weasel out of it by sweeping it under the rug.

So......lemmie ask you a question Willow.......what if they waterboarded an individual who gave them BAD information (a red herring if you will), and then an attack happened based on the faulty information which kills a lot of Americans.

If that happens, will you still support torture?

 

[Ravi]

Why, what did Pelosi do? Did she authorize torture?

 

[catzmeow]

Why, what did Pelosi do? Did she authorize torture?

I think that it's possible that the congressional leadership from both parties were involved in the decision, and were fully aware of it. That makes them equally culpable.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

no madame,, I am most likely an agnostic.. bloodthirsty values?? lol,, I'm anti abortion I'll have you to know,, does waterboarding bring forth blood?

For some reason, I remember you being very unhappy about the "war on Christmas."

I'm not pro-abortion, for the record, so that discussion should take place elsewhere. It's off-topic.

I was unhappy about the war on christmas. just because I'm agnostic does not preclude my unhappiness when I see a group of people persecuted for their religious beliefs.

If that's true, you're about as agnostic as James Dobbs and Pat Robertson.

And abortion fits right into this discussion because the left proclaims the moral high ground on "torture" while at the same time thinking nothing of sucking an infants brains out through it's crushed skull.

Except that some of those who support a woman's right to choose don't think of unborn fetuses as infants or even people. We shouldn't torture people; we should allow a woman to terminate a first trimester pregnancy.

 

[Ravi]

Why, what did Pelosi do? Did she authorize torture?

I think that it's possible that the congressional leadership from both parties were involved in the decision, and were fully aware of it. That makes them equally culpable.

I would like to know that. If they knew about it and kept quite they deserve to be booted out of office. However, it isn't the same thing as authorizing and/or ordering it to be done.

 

[rayboyusmc]

The Bush Cheney group approved torture because they were cowards and because as the data is now showing they wanted the prisoners to confess to a link between al quaeda/9-11 and Iraq.

but I can't understand how thousands of innocents lying around dead at the hands of terrorists is preferable to waterboarding.

Because my dearest, Willow, they tortured more than the terrorists. They tortured anyone they thought was a terrorist even then they let them go later with no charges.

How about a bunch of liberals take your kids on the suspicion that they are conservative terrorists, waterboard them, beat the crap out of them and then let them go because they were not terrorists? No apology etc. No sorry. Just go home now.

This is about a moral failure of our leaders. If you can't get that, then you just seem to have your head up your partisan way too far.

I would no more defend a democratic administration doing this than a republican one.

And I would bet if it was Clinton who has done all this shit, your side would be up in arms for the damage he did to our country.

You are wrong and history will prove it.