English as the official language laws?

[manu1959]

Do you think laws mandating English as the official language are in violation of the 1st Amendment right to freedom of speech? Why? Why not? I never really thought about that before, but a friend of mine brought it up recently in conversation so I thought I'd pose the question to the intelligent minds of USMB.

if you can read, write and speak the first amendment in the language it was written ..... then you can have all the free speech you like ......

 

[Ravi]

I think as long as they can pass the question and answer session in english they are good to go.

That's how it was with my Italian grandparents, when they took the test...

My grandma was about 55 and grandpa was about 65 when they got here and so help me goodness, my grandma tried real hard, but she never ended up speaking english and she lived here till 87 when she passed on....my mother had to be the interpreter with her doctors and banks and dentists and you name it.....the groceries and dry cleaners and clothes shopping she could get by with in little Italy...

She worked for a coat factory in the Garment district in NYC for 20 years and at 75 when she retired she still never spoke a word of the language and the woman who sewed coats right next to her, was israeli and also did not speak english, and they worked side by side for 20 years and were best of work friends.....only the Lord knows how???? Must of been some sort of sign language they developed? lol

My grandfather on the other hand, was always more educated than my grandmom and had dealings with Americans at the base that was near where they lived overseas so he picked up enough, even at the age of 65, to get along without my mother's assistance....he lived till almost 92.

But, let me tell you this...my grandma wanted no exceptions for her age...she studied those questions day and night for over a year so that she could answer in English, God rest her soul, and when we came to visit them, she used to have me practice with her...and the first question was, Who was the first President of the United States and she used to answer, George io Wash ing a ton a ! with her thick Italian accent. i could not get away fast enough to just giggle in the other room...

Care

Sweet story. I find a lot of Cubans that immigrated here in the same boat...it is quite a struggle for someone of that age to learn a new language, but many of them make great Americans anyway.

 

[Lycurgus]

My family came to the US just prior to WWI, after WWI and after WWII. Each of them had to learn English, had to report regularly to immigration and was visited regularly by immigration, until each one earned citizenship. To this day each one of them who are still alive support this nation making English as the official language. These are people who for a long time were discriminated against in the work place and in housing. They worked through it and rose above it and they feel they are better people and American's because of it. I cannot do their stories justice and to understand why they feel as they do really needs to be explained by them, but, they are not pleased with the current bending over by this nation to welcome others. They felt welcome by our government and the government only helped them, but, they too did their part. They chose to come here, hence they took it upon themselves to adapt to our culture and language, they did not expect this nation to change for them.

I too am first generation, but my situation was much different from theirs. Nevertheless, I understand the lessons they share and the road they walked.

Mike

 

[Care4all]

even if you Federally made english as an official language where would the "change " be? What changes do you expect to get from this....?

The feds do not control elections, so the states can still print ballots in foreign languages?

so, what is it that you think will happen or should happen with making english as the official language?

Banning other languages? what?

Why waste our government's time and money? What's at issue here?

 

[manu1959]

even if you Federally made english as an official language where would the "change " be? What changes do you expect to get from this....?

The feds do not control elections, so the states can still print ballots in foreign languages?

so, what is it that you think will happen or should happen with making english as the official language?

Banning other languages? what?

Why waste our government's time and money? What's at issue here?

states set speed limits and the drinking age.....funny once the feds threatened to cut off federal funds the states went along with the feds....

the issue is the same as most of the rest of the world....it is simple respect for history and underlying culture......

 

[Care4all]

even if you Federally made english as an official language where would the "change " be? What changes do you expect to get from this....?

The feds do not control elections, so the states can still print ballots in foreign languages?

so, what is it that you think will happen or should happen with making english as the official language?

Banning other languages? what?

Why waste our government's time and money? What's at issue here?

states set speed limits and the drinking age.....funny once the feds threatened to cut off federal funds the states went along with the feds....

the issue is the same as most of the rest of the world....it is simple respect for history and underlying culture......

I don't think they can do that with Election law that is developed by the states manu....

i just don't think the States would take that crap on their own state election law issues....no matter the blackballing....and truthfully, i do not believe the Fed gvt would blackball the states from funds regarding this....too risky and unconstitutional imo.

 

[KittenKoder]

Do you think laws mandating English as the official language are in violation of the 1st Amendment right to freedom of speech? Why? Why not? I never really thought about that before, but a friend of mine brought it up recently in conversation so I thought I'd pose the question to the intelligent minds of USMB.

I don't think it matters. Almost half the words in American English are from other languages, some are bastardized, and only a very small portion is actually English. Even the English barely use English anymore.

P.S. Yes I am bored enough to bring back a 2007 thread.

 

[michiganFats]

I think English should be the official ballot language, if you can't handle an English language ballot, then IMHO you have no business voting in this country. I have no problem with non-election paperwork being printed in other languages.

 

[Care4all]

I think English should be the official ballot language, if you can't handle an English language ballot, then IMHO you have no business voting in this country. I have no problem with non-election paperwork being printed in other languages.

Why do you think our forfathers never made English the official language, do you know? We had french, and spanish and english here...? I've always wondered about that....?

I think it is none of our business what each state and each local district does with their ballots for their own communities and it would be a far over reach of the federal government to get involved in State election law.

I think it would be similar to a toll tax in solid chinese communities within new york or other places like san francisco to have the ballots only in English....especially since it is not our official language via the constitution or our forefathers...making citizens of the united states "meet a test" in order to vote or is equivalent to "pay" to vote.....

I think the gvt would lose in this case, if it went to the Supreme court.

So why bother, let each district do what they need to do, to accomodate their own TAX PAYING CITIZEN VOTERS....? as long as english is the original ballot and these others come secondary I'm fine and even with that, i don't have a say so because it is not my taxes paying for it, it is the state and their localities paying for it.... in Maine the demographics are 97% caucasian...we have some american indians and some african americans that make up the 2%-3% not caucasian...i don't even think hispanics register a half of a percentage point, and virtually no chinese....so my state does not have a problem with any of this and they should not be forced in to some unconstitutional, unfunded, federal mandate to change their election law....

Each state, should address their own problems with their own election law, that is what a Republic is suppose to be about...

care

 

[michiganFats]

Why do you think our forfathers never made English the official language, do you know? We had french, and spanish and english here...? I've always wondered about that....?

I think it is none of our business what each state and each local district does with their ballots for their own communities and it would be a far over reach of the federal government to get involved in State election law.

I think it would be similar to a toll tax in solid chinese communities within new york or other places like san francisco to have the ballots only in English....especially since it is not our official language via the constitution or our forefathers...making citizens of the united states "meet a test" in order to vote or is equivalent to "pay" to vote.....

I think the gvt would lose in this case, if it went to the Supreme court.

So why bother, let each district do what they need to do, to accomodate their own TAX PAYING CITIZEN VOTERS....? as long as english is the original ballot and these others come secondary I'm fine and even with that, i don't have a say so because it is not my taxes paying for it, it is the state and their localities paying for it.... in Maine the demographics are 97% caucasian...we have some american indians and some african americans that make up the 2%-3% not caucasian...i don't even think hispanics register a half of a percentage point, and virtually no chinese....so my state does not have a problem with any of this and they should not be forced in to some unconstitutional, unfunded, federal mandate to change their election law....

Each state, should address their own problems with their own election law, that is what a Republic is suppose to be about...

care

Your points sound compelling, until you realize that knowledge of English is a citizenship requirement, and has been for a very, very long time. Too bad you weren't around back in the day to point out to those men who made that a law the error of their ways. Also, I really hate to point this out to you, but being a taxpayer does not in and of itself make you eligible to vote. As far as your take on what a Republic is and needs, There actually are some people out here who believe that a Republic needs to have a strong sense of past and purpose, and a common language is an important part of making that happen. And please, for the love of God, don't resort to romanticizing the actions and intents of the founding fathers. I swear, with all of the so-called experts on the founders on this board, it's a damn shame the Revolution happened in the 18th Century, those guys back then stole all of your thunder.

 

[Care4all]

Why do you think our forfathers never made English the official language, do you know? We had french, and spanish and english here...? I've always wondered about that....?

I think it is none of our business what each state and each local district does with their ballots for their own communities and it would be a far over reach of the federal government to get involved in State election law.

I think it would be similar to a toll tax in solid chinese communities within new york or other places like san francisco to have the ballots only in English....especially since it is not our official language via the constitution or our forefathers...making citizens of the united states "meet a test" in order to vote or is equivalent to "pay" to vote.....

I think the gvt would lose in this case, if it went to the Supreme court.

So why bother, let each district do what they need to do, to accomodate their own TAX PAYING CITIZEN VOTERS....? as long as english is the original ballot and these others come secondary I'm fine and even with that, i don't have a say so because it is not my taxes paying for it, it is the state and their localities paying for it.... in Maine the demographics are 97% caucasian...we have some american indians and some african americans that make up the 2%-3% not caucasian...i don't even think hispanics register a half of a percentage point, and virtually no chinese....so my state does not have a problem with any of this and they should not be forced in to some unconstitutional, unfunded, federal mandate to change their election law....

Each state, should address their own problems with their own election law, that is what a Republic is suppose to be about...

care

Your points sound compelling, until you realize that knowledge of English is a citizenship requirement, and has been for a very, very long time. Too bad you weren't around back in the day to point out to those men who made that a law the error of their ways. Also, I really hate to point this out to you, but being a taxpayer does not in and of itself make you eligible to vote. As far as your take on what a Republic is and needs, There actually are some people out here who believe that a Republic needs to have a strong sense of past and purpose, and a common language is an important part of making that happen. And please, for the love of God, don't resort to romanticizing the actions and intents of the founding fathers. I swear, with all of the so-called experts on the founders on this board, it's a damn shame the Revolution happened in the 18th Century, those guys back then stole all of your thunder.

the ability to answer the handful of questions asked of you in english, of which they give you months ahead of time to memorize, is a requirement of citizenship, this is why you have american sponsors i think? ....this was the case with my grandparents, my parents sponsored them...they were my grandparents backbone to becoming citizens and even all the years they lived here after they got their citizenship.

how long has this law been in effect, since the forefathers?

do you think we don't overwhelmingly have a common language in the united states with our ballots? and again, what business is it of yours when we reside in a republic which dictates election law, to the states not the federal gvt and any song and a dance you give does NOT change that....?

i totally agree that only citizens of the united states can vote and i never said differently so where you were coming from with that comment about tax payers vs citizens, i have no idea?

i contend that as a citizen, voting is one of the most important things you can do to keep democracy going...

i believe there are communities, like in areas of brooklyn, where there are many citizens that do not speak english fluently....italian communities, where you can buy your fresh bread and groceries and auto parts, all in italian....the store owners and employees speak both english, for the children of these immigrants and italian for the older folks, their parents....

the same in China town....

and all of them knew politically what was going on because they read their daily newspapers in italian that kept them up to date....i even found from my experience that these immigrant citizens knew more about our government than the average born usa citizen....

same in china town.....

anyone young in these communities will be bilingual and this is critical assimilation that takes place for them in schools, so there will be no problems with the next generation of these immigrants knowing the english language....but the older ones....as the saying goes, it's hard to teach an old dog, new tricks....at least not well....

i know it would be very hard for me to move to china and learn their language fluently in a short time...or ever!!!!

so, again, i differ with you in giving some kind of power to the fed on this....i think each locality should do what is right for their area....if they want to nix their bilingual ballots they can, or keep them, they can....afterall the government is merely a representation of its citizens...not some elite class that gets to govern the rest of us...

courses for legal immigrants to learn our language could be helpful as well

care

 

[michiganFats]

Care, I have two points in response.

First, I talked about taxpayers because you bolded the phrase "tax paying citizen voters". Given the tone of your post, I assumed that you were resorting to the La Raza line that all tax payers should be allowed to vote, regardless of status. I assumed that because as far as voting is concerned, your tax bill is irrelevant, so I figured you had another reason for including "tax paying". If I misread your intent, I do sincerely apologize. You know what they say about one who assumes Mea Culpa.

Second, ballots should be in one language and only one language for one very simple reason, translation. Voting for candidates isn't a problem because it's just a list of names, but ballot initiatives are a different story. They are often full of legalese and double speak that is designed to confuse native English speakers, now translate that into a language other than English,many of which do not translate word for word, and you have something that is not the initiative in question. Don't believe me? Print out an old ballot initiative, take it on down to Chinatown, and ask 5 people there to translate it into Chinese. You'll get 5 different translations, I guarantee it. I have no problem with people using their native language in order to educate themselves on the issues, but voting should be done in English.

 

[Care4all]

Care, I have two points in response.

First, I talked about taxpayers because you bolded the phrase "tax paying citizen voters". Given the tone of your post, I assumed that you were resorting to the La Raza line that all tax payers should be allowed to vote, regardless of status. I assumed that because as far as voting is concerned, your tax bill is irrelevant, so I figured you had another reason for including "tax paying". If I misread your intent, I do sincerely apologize. You know what they say about one who assumes Mea Culpa.

Second, ballots should be in one language and only one language for one very simple reason, translation. Voting for candidates isn't a problem because it's just a list of names, but ballot initiatives are a different story. They are often full of legalese and double speak that is designed to confuse native English speakers, now translate that into a language other than English,many of which do not translate word for word, and you have something that is not the initiative in question. Don't believe me? Print out an old ballot initiative, take it on down to Chinatown, and ask 5 people there to translate it into Chinese. You'll get 5 different translations, I guarantee it. I have no problem with people using their native language in order to educate themselves on the issues, but voting should be done in English.

IF it has NEVER BEEN THAT WAY, at least in a generation,....what is your purpose of changing it now? Do you think this will stop illegals from voting or something?

Also, the federal government can not dictate any State election law...

THAT you HAVE TO ACCEPT....

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to get involved in a State's election....PERIOD.

So, I can understand your reason, and why you would like to see it differently...however, if you want a change, you can get your government within your own State, to change it....simple as that...

All other things in the federal government could be changed to English only by them....but the fed gvt does not rule State election Law....that would be up to the individual State, to address, at least that is my understanding of it.

 

[michiganFats]

Care, I don't know why you think the Feds can't get involved in local or state election law. They do. Recently SCOTUS ruled on the Indiana voter ID law. By your reasoning, they shouldn't have been able to do that, but they did. Why don't we still have poll taxes? Did all of the states and localities suddenly recognize the error of their ways and abolish them? No. If you care to fire up Google, you can read about a lot of cases which contradict your opinion, I just did.

I'm not suggesting that the Feds have the right to come into your state and write first drafts of voter legislation, but they most certainly have the authority, and obligation, to correct an obvious wrong, when all other avenues of appeal have been exhausted, which deny any American citizen the right to a free and open election. I've already made the case that translation at the very least muddies openness, and you've agreed that that was a valid point.

 

[Care4all]

Care, I don't know why you think the Feds can't get involved in local or state election law. They do. Recently SCOTUS ruled on the Indiana voter ID law. By your reasoning, they shouldn't have been able to do that, but they did. Why don't we still have poll taxes? Did all of the states and localities suddenly recognize the error of their ways and abolish them? No. If you care to fire up Google, you can read about a lot of cases which contradict your opinion, I just did.

I'm not suggesting that the Feds have the right to come into your state and write first drafts of voter legislation, but they most certainly have the authority, and obligation, to correct an obvious wrong, when all other avenues of appeal have been exhausted, which deny any American citizen the right to a free and open election. I've already made the case that translation at the very least muddies openness, and you've agreed that that was a valid point.

The Supreme court ruled on INDIANA voter ID law.....

No, by my reasoning the Supreme court is the highest court of the land....they simply were covering whether the Indiana Supreme court, and the decisions of the case beforehand, ruled within the constitution....same with your other cases.

 

[editec]

I think my credentials as a big fan of foreign languages is rather unassailable, but I have to tell you that I think it criminal that we do not encourage and assist permanent foreign residents to learn English.

America needs some ties that bind us, because, after all, we do NOT have a cultural heritage like most non-western hemipheric nations have.

Language is first and foremost that tie that binds a people with some sense of shared identity.

What is equally criminal is the fact that we do not start teaching our children foreign languages in elementary school.

I would be ecstatic if the USA was a nation of polyglots whose mother tongue was English, to be honest.

If we had that high percentage of polyglots, our national zietguiest outlook would be much less xenophbic than it often is.

 

[jillian]

Care, I don't know why you think the Feds can't get involved in local or state election law. They do. Recently SCOTUS ruled on the Indiana voter ID law. By your reasoning, they shouldn't have been able to do that, but they did. Why don't we still have poll taxes? Did all of the states and localities suddenly recognize the error of their ways and abolish them? No. If you care to fire up Google, you can read about a lot of cases which contradict your opinion, I just did.

I'm not suggesting that the Feds have the right to come into your state and write first drafts of voter legislation, but they most certainly have the authority, and obligation, to correct an obvious wrong, when all other avenues of appeal have been exhausted, which deny any American citizen the right to a free and open election. I've already made the case that translation at the very least muddies openness, and you've agreed that that was a valid point.

no. election law cases are traditionally the purview of the highest court of the state.

 

[michiganFats]

Care, I don't know why you think the Feds can't get involved in local or state election law. They do. Recently SCOTUS ruled on the Indiana voter ID law. By your reasoning, they shouldn't have been able to do that, but they did. Why don't we still have poll taxes? Did all of the states and localities suddenly recognize the error of their ways and abolish them? No. If you care to fire up Google, you can read about a lot of cases which contradict your opinion, I just did.

I'm not suggesting that the Feds have the right to come into your state and write first drafts of voter legislation, but they most certainly have the authority, and obligation, to correct an obvious wrong, when all other avenues of appeal have been exhausted, which deny any American citizen the right to a free and open election. I've already made the case that translation at the very least muddies openness, and you've agreed that that was a valid point.

The Supreme court ruled on INDIANA voter ID law.....

No, by my reasoning the Supreme court is the highest court of the land....they simply were covering whether the Indiana Supreme court, and the decisions of the case beforehand, ruled within the constitution....same with your other cases.

Ok, if that's your take on it, then I'll agree. We're not as far apart as I thought we were.