Flag Burning

[CrimsonWhite]

Slavery was *a* reason for the civil war. To be specific, it was "slavery, as an economic issue", not "a moral crusade against slavery". The sad truth is that neither side had any real moral qualms about the injustice of slavery. Many in the north opposed slavery, not because they had any concern about blacks, but because they didn't want blacks competing against white labor, or occupying any more land west of Texas. Notice that many northern states had laws that flatly prohibited free blacks from living in a given state at all--thus the need for blacks to emmigrate all the way to Canada.

When Lincoln was seeking the republican nomination, he insisted that he was going to keep the union together and enforce the fugitive slave act--and the crowd went absolutely wild with approval. He made it clear that he would abolish slavery or keep slavery, whichever preserved the union--it didn't matter to him. Only after a couple years of a stalemate did he write the Emancipation Proclamation. Many foreign newspapers (domestic papers were muzzled) opined that it was a crass move to give the north the appearance of moral superiority, and incite a slave revolt while much of the male population was away at war. It only granted freedom to slaves in areas that the union didn't control, while leaving slavery untouched in areas which the north controlled.

Yes, there were a few people who were against the morality of slavery, but they were a tiny minority. And interestingly enough, many of them had longed for the north to secede from the south--so that northern states would no longer be required to return slaves to the south.



"If"?

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm (scroll to the bottom for pics)

Uh, Oh. Guess I've been fighting for slavery and lynchings. According to the pictures anyway.

 

[Gunny]

Slavery was *a* reason for the civil war. To be specific, it was "slavery, as an economic issue", not "a moral crusade against slavery". The sad truth is that neither side had any real moral qualms about the injustice of slavery. Many in the north opposed slavery, not because they had any concern about blacks, but because they didn't want blacks competing against white labor, or occupying any more land west of Texas. Notice that many northern states had laws that flatly prohibited free blacks from living in a given state at all--thus the need for fugitive to emmigrate all the way to Canada.

When Lincoln was seeking the presidential nomination at the republican convention, he told the crowd that he was going to keep the union together, keep slavery legal, and enforce the fugitive slave act, in order to stop blacks from coming north and competing with white labor (which they eventually did)--and the crowd went absolutely wild with approval. He made it clear that he would abolish slavery or keep slavery, whichever preserved the union--it didn't matter to him. Only after a couple years of a stalemate did he write the Emancipation Proclamation. Many foreign newspapers (domestic papers were muzzled) opined that it was a crass move to give the north the appearance of moral superiority, and incite a slave revolt while much of the male population was away at war. It only granted freedom to slaves in areas that the union didn't control, while leaving slavery untouched in areas which the north controlled.

Yes, there were a few people who were against the morality of slavery, but they were a tiny minority. And interestingly enough, many of them had longed for the north to secede from the south--so that northern states would no longer be required to return slaves to the south.



"If"?

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm (scroll to the bottom for pics)

A rather simplified version, but I agree with most of it.

 

[Redhots]

@ Gotzoom

I suppose the best way to describe my postion as to why I wouldn't kick someones ass for burning a flag but I would if they hit my mom is this.

Its not that I don't respect the flag as a symbol for blood shed by vets, or for lofty ideals, but it is because I do respect it for those reasons.

I would describe my postion as Coming Full Circle.

In other words I respect the freedoms it represents and the sacrifices made defending those ideals to the point where I am willing to allow someone to physicaly exercise those ideals to the point of destroying the very symbol of those ideals.

To do any less is at worst to shit on everything the flag stands for. At best you're a hypocrite.

In an atempt to drive my point home do some research and post a list of countries where flag burning is illegal and let me know if you think they qualify as democracies.

 

[Dr Grump]

In an atempt to drive my point home do some research and post a list of countries where flag burning is illegal and let me know if you think they qualify as democracies.

So far, after a quick google (didn't click on links etc) it is illegal in Denmark, Germany, India and New Zealand. All democracies....

 

[Redhots]

Um, in Denmark it is illegal to burn the flags of other nations. This is true for a couple others.

AFAIK in any nation that signed up with the EU allows flag burning. Its listed under protected speach in the charter.

India isn't exactly a bastion of democracy either, really. Its sort of like the US in the "wild-west" days... some harsher critics would say like the "dark-ages".

 

[Dr Grump]

Um, in Denmark it is illegal to burn the flags of other nations. This is true for a couple others.

AFAIK in any nation that signed up with the EU allows flag burning. Its listed under protected speach in the charter.

India isn't exactly a bastion of democracy either, really. Its sort of like the US in the "wild-west" days... some harsher critics would say like the "dark-ages".

Um...I did say it was a quick google without checking links...India's not too bad....has its moments for sure...

 

[pegwinn]

Simply require that all US Flags manufactured in the USA, Exported from the USA, or Imported into the USA be manufactured from flameproof material.

End of problem.

 

[archangel]

Simply require that all US Flags manufactured in the USA, Exported from the USA, or Imported into the USA be manufactured from flameproof material.

End of problem.

:teeth: