House GOP to vote NO on stimulus package

[rayboyusmc]

Let's wait and see if Obama does get back with those who opposed the bill simply because they were republicans. He may have more up his sleeve than meets the eye.

I would love to have a Dem president who knows how to play hardball with a bunch of repubs who haven't realized yet that they lost this election and lost power in the house and senate.

This is the same shit they attacked FDR with. The New Deal did work.

 

[sealybobo]

What an inane remark. If they just pushed it through in the house like they can, you would bitch about that. If they try to work together you bitch about that. Obama, as president, goes to meet with them and talk. They basically say fuck you.

I disagree. The Repubs don't believe the bill will work and they told Obama this. I believe they also presented some alternatives that would cost far less but Obama didn't want to listen. The fact that he met with the Repubs is fine, shows he was keeping his 'bipartisan' word I suppose. But it seems to me that Obama doesn't understand that in order to be 'bipartisan' it requires compromise. Compromise from both parties. I do not believe that he is willing to do this. I find it perplexing that Obama, who so loves history that he continually quotes from it, does not see that this stimulus package is just going to result in history repeating itself by failing.

The GOP don't get to offer alternatives. The Dems didn't get to offer the GOP alternatives between 2000-2006. And the GOP's ideas failed. And what they are proposing today, are those very same ideas.

The Republicans never think anything Democratic will work. That's why there is no bipartisanship. It doesn't exist. Obama needs to use a carrot sometimes and other times he needs to use a stick. He needs to make these Republicans look bad for not going along. They will stab him in the back the minute they get a chance.

And Obama has tried to unite more in 3 days than Bush did in 8 years.

And this stimulous package will work. And after it gets under way, Obama will THEN do things that will prevent this from ever happening again.

The question is, in 8 years will you be dumb enough to vote for Jeb Bush, who will then undo all the good and put us back into a fascist/feudal state?

 

[sealybobo]

Let's wait and see if Obama does get back with those who opposed the bill simply because they were republicans. He may have more up his sleeve than meets the eye.

I would love to have a Dem president who knows how to play hardball with a bunch of repubs who haven't realized yet that they lost this election and lost power in the house and senate.

This is the same shit they attacked FDR with. The New Deal did work.

They attacked Clinton like this too.

 

[Zoom-boing]

What an inane remark. If they just pushed it through in the house like they can, you would bitch about that. If they try to work together you bitch about that. Obama, as president, goes to meet with them and talk. They basically say fuck you.

I disagree. The Repubs don't believe the bill will work and they told Obama this. I believe they also presented some alternatives that would cost far less but Obama didn't want to listen. The fact that he met with the Repubs is fine, shows he was keeping his 'bipartisan' word I suppose. But it seems to me that Obama doesn't understand that in order to be 'bipartisan' it requires compromise. Compromise from both parties. I do not believe that he is willing to do this. I find it perplexing that Obama, who so loves history that he continually quotes from it, does not see that this stimulus package is just going to result in history repeating itself by failing.

The GOP don't get to offer alternatives. The Dems didn't get to offer the GOP alternatives between 2000-2006. And the GOP's ideas failed. And what they are proposing today, are those very same ideas.

The Republicans never think anything Democratic will work. That's why there is no bipartisanship. It doesn't exist. Obama needs to use a carrot sometimes and other times he needs to use a stick. He needs to make these Republicans look bad for not going along. They will stab him in the back the minute they get a chance.

And Obama has tried to unite more in 3 days than Bush did in 8 years.

And this stimulous package will work. And after it gets under way, Obama will THEN do things that will prevent this from ever happening again.

The question is, in 8 years will you be dumb enough to vote for Jeb Bush, who will then undo all the good and put us back into a fascist/feudal state?

Whatever you say, sealy. Just curious, what's Obama's Plan C when this thing tanks?

 

[Bern80]

Funny.. seems like the non-partisan side was the one voting AGAINST.. there were DEMs joining AND some of the DEMs even supported the Republican alternative

This makes no sense at all. Because there are Dems who don't follow the party line, does not make the repubs non partisan.

They voted to a person in the typical Borg Mind against it.

Obama, could have told the house to screw themselves like the repubs did to the dems when they owned both house and senate. He met with them to discuss the bill.

That is what is called bi fucking partisan.

I see a change coming shortly. If the repubs refuse to work together, the dems need to tell them to piss off. The majority of Americans voted for Obama. It is the will of the people.

Remember when Bush squeaked by and said he had political capital to spend. The current righties in DC don't want or care about any bipartisan work.

Have you considered that they all voted against it because that is what their constituency wants them to do?

No one can accuse Obama of being bi-partisan. He said he was going to meet with Republicans about there ideas and obviously he didn't listen at all if every single Republican voted against his plan.

Think about this objectively for a second. What are the reasons someone would be against this stimulus package? You honestly believe it's about party politcs? Or that people just want to stick to Obama? Or that people want to continue to suffer through this economy and want to continue to see others suffer through it? No to all of the above. I and many others are against it because we beleive and there is ample evidence to support that not only will it not work, but could make things worse for us and future generations. We oppose it because if you thought you saw ridiculous government expansion under Bush, you ain't seen nothin' yet. We believe that if this goes through it only continues to encourage our government to spend like drunken sailors and renders little chance of government every reigning itself in.

 

[Bern80]

And this stimulous package will work.

I'll ask again seeing as how it seems you were too chicken shit to answer the first time.

WHY will it work? What is in this bill that you believe is going to provide an immediate needed boost to our economy and sustain it into the future?

 

[Bern80]

Let's wait and see if Obama does get back with those who opposed the bill simply because they were republicans. He may have more up his sleeve than meets the eye.

I would love to have a Dem president who knows how to play hardball with a bunch of repubs who haven't realized yet that they lost this election and lost power in the house and senate.

This is the same shit they attacked FDR with. The New Deal did work.

They attacked Clinton like this too.

What is one suppossed to do when they feel ones policies are wrong?

 

[sealybobo]

I disagree. The Repubs don't believe the bill will work and they told Obama this. I believe they also presented some alternatives that would cost far less but Obama didn't want to listen. The fact that he met with the Repubs is fine, shows he was keeping his 'bipartisan' word I suppose. But it seems to me that Obama doesn't understand that in order to be 'bipartisan' it requires compromise. Compromise from both parties. I do not believe that he is willing to do this. I find it perplexing that Obama, who so loves history that he continually quotes from it, does not see that this stimulus package is just going to result in history repeating itself by failing.

The GOP don't get to offer alternatives. The Dems didn't get to offer the GOP alternatives between 2000-2006. And the GOP's ideas failed. And what they are proposing today, are those very same ideas.

The Republicans never think anything Democratic will work. That's why there is no bipartisanship. It doesn't exist. Obama needs to use a carrot sometimes and other times he needs to use a stick. He needs to make these Republicans look bad for not going along. They will stab him in the back the minute they get a chance.

And Obama has tried to unite more in 3 days than Bush did in 8 years.

And this stimulous package will work. And after it gets under way, Obama will THEN do things that will prevent this from ever happening again.

The question is, in 8 years will you be dumb enough to vote for Jeb Bush, who will then undo all the good and put us back into a fascist/feudal state?

Whatever you say, sealy. Just curious, what's Obama's Plan C when this thing tanks?

I don't know. At least he admits we have a problem. If the GOP thought they could have gotten away with it, they would still be pretending that nothing is wrong. They like the status quo.

Lets face it, the rich people the GOP serve sort of like what is going on. They aren't unemployed. They are still working. They're buying homes & stocks cheap. They're consolidating power. Didn't we break up their monopolies in the past?

And every day more people get laid off, the easier it is to lower wages.

I think this current economy is all about lowering wages. Apparently the GOP didn't like how well the middle class did in the 90's.

So what is Obama's plan C?

First you tell me what Bush's plan B was. Because the only thing he knew to do was more tax breaks.

You know what makes me mad? We could have taken the $750 billion dollars and just purchased all the bad loans instead of giving the money to the banks. Then the banks wouldn't have anything to cry about.

PS. Plan C? End the Federal Reserve and forgive the national debt. Of course we will pay China back, but the Federal Reserve/Private Bankers can fuck off. They already have enough of our money. They think they own us? I would love to sieze all their assets and throw them in jail.

Lets see their spoiled kids achieve without the silver spoons.

 

[sealybobo]

Let's wait and see if Obama does get back with those who opposed the bill simply because they were republicans. He may have more up his sleeve than meets the eye.

I would love to have a Dem president who knows how to play hardball with a bunch of repubs who haven't realized yet that they lost this election and lost power in the house and senate.

This is the same shit they attacked FDR with. The New Deal did work.

They attacked Clinton like this too.

What is one suppossed to do when they feel ones policies are wrong?

I just wish they would stop playing politics. The GOP are more worried about the 2010 election than they are the fucked up economy.

 

[Munin]

They would have failed because they were and are insolvent in the first place. How many more hundreds of billions of dollars are you willing to waste in propping up failed businesses? Forcing the taxpayers to bail out companies that cannot stand on their own will not help this economy. We gave $700 billion to banks that are still failing, when that capital could have been used by the taxpayers on businesses that would be able to stand on their own. Bailing out failed businesses is just spreading the misery around.

It would have cost you multiple times more if the government didn't bail them out. The government is actually spending less money now compared to the money that it would loose (unemployed people and bankrupt companies don't pay taxes) by the desastrous situation that would be created when multiple big banks, big companies go bankrupt. It is better for a government to lose less jobs and spend more money, then if it would loose a huge amount of jobs and spend nothing because then all americans would pay a price that is multiple times bigger: unemployment, inflation = prices of everything (products, ...) will rise, money that vanishes because of banks that can't pay back debts -> money literally disappears, ...

The correction has to happen at some point. There is absolutely no way around that. I'd prefer not to make it worse then it has to be, but the government seems intent on doing just that by bailing out failed businesses and robbing the taxpayers of hundreds of billions of dollars.

Also, inflation is the increase in the supply of money, rising prices are simply a consequence.

The correction happens earlier if the government acts and if the government doesn't do it the correction will happen at a point when more of your economy is even more seriously damaged. And to restore that economy will take less time if you don't have huge unemployment, a lot of money that has "disappeared", a small number of companies left that can make goods and services.

Yes I know that inflation is the increase of money, but it makes people poor because they will loose more money on buying products that would be cheaper in a normal economic situation.

 

[editec]

Done correctly this stimulus package can stimulate our economy.

Done incorrectly all it will do is inflate our money supply without stimulating our economy one bit.

The more I read about the current plan, the less confidence I have it is going to work.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Let's wait and see if Obama does get back with those who opposed the bill simply because they were republicans. He may have more up his sleeve than meets the eye.

I would love to have a Dem president who knows how to play hardball with a bunch of repubs who haven't realized yet that they lost this election and lost power in the house and senate.

This is the same shit they attacked FDR with. The New Deal did work.

No, the New Deal did not work. It prolonged and worsened the Great Depression.

 

[FXASHUN]

Done correctly this stimulus package can stimulate our economy.

Done incorrectly all it will do is inflate our money supply without stimulating our economy one bit.

The more I read about the current plan, the less confidence I have it is going to work.

How do you give away enough money to make this work? How does the Federal Government hire enough people to offset the monetary drain their salaries are creating on the still shrinking tax base? I don't see how this can work. We have to creaete money out of thin air like we did during our heyday in the 80's, and giving away and hiring people with money we don't have is not the key.

I have a hard time seeing how this or any "stimulus" plan will work until it addresses the meat and potatoes of the problem. Otherwise it's like putting jelly on burned toast.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It would have cost you multiple times more if the government didn't bail them out. The government is actually spending less money now compared to the money that it would loose (unemployed people and bankrupt companies don't pay taxes) by the desastrous situation that would be created when multiple big banks, big companies go bankrupt. It is better for a government to lose less jobs and spend more money, then if it would loose a huge amount of jobs and spend nothing because then all americans would pay a price that is multiple times bigger: unemployment, inflation = prices of everything (products, ...) will rise, money that vanishes because of banks that can't pay back debts -> money literally disappears, ...

The correction has to happen at some point. There is absolutely no way around that. I'd prefer not to make it worse then it has to be, but the government seems intent on doing just that by bailing out failed businesses and robbing the taxpayers of hundreds of billions of dollars.

Also, inflation is the increase in the supply of money, rising prices are simply a consequence.

The correction happens earlier if the government acts and if the government doesn't do it the correction will happen at a point when more of your economy is even more seriously damaged. And to restore that economy will take less time if you don't have huge unemployment, a lot of money that has "disappeared", a small number of companies left that can make goods and services.

Yes I know that inflation is the increase of money, but it makes people poor because they will loose more money on buying products that would be cheaper in a normal economic situation.

The correction is not being allowed to happen because the government keeps tampering with the market. By bailing out insolvent businesses the government does not allow the reallocation of resources that has to happen in the correction. By taking hundreds of billions of dollars from the private sector the government is not allowing them to stimulate the economy, and the private sector is where wealth and jobs are really created.

 

[editec]

Done correctly this stimulus package can stimulate our economy.

Done incorrectly all it will do is inflate our money supply without stimulating our economy one bit.

The more I read about the current plan, the less confidence I have it is going to work.

How do you give away enough money to make this work?

No you have to invest it into productive projects that actually have some benefit to society.

How does the Federal Government hire enough people

The government mostly doesn't hire anyone...it pays for profit companies to do work like building bridges and roads,.

to offset the monetary drain their salaries are creating on the still shrinking tax base?

It doesn't...it creates fiat dollars (or borrows money from other economies) to foot the costs temperarily hoping that by breaking increasing confidence (because people have jobs) those who are hoarding their money right now will start spending it again.

I don't see how this can work. We have to creaete money out of thin air like we did during our heyday in the 80's, and giving away and hiring people with money we don't have is not the key.

That is true...except most of those fiat dollars went to a very small segment of the population who do not spend them, but rather who invested them in bubbles like real estate, bonds on real estate, the hi tech bubble and so forth.

And then those bubble popped and suddenly there's no money in circulation and people get scared.

I have a hard time seeing how this or any "stimulus" plan will work until it addresses the meat and potatoes of the problem. Otherwise it's like putting jelly on burned toast.

How did the massive spending of FIAT dollars that paid for WWII get us out of the depression?

That's, in theory, how this will work.

But as I have pointed out already, I grow increasingly less confident that the money we're currently going to spend is enough, AND it is going to exactly the wrong people, too.

Our economy (and probably all the industrial economies on earth) are now so out of kilter precisely because too few people who too much money, and the consumers therefore do not have enough to SPEND MONEY.

It's way more complex than that, of course, but there's the root cause of our current crises in a nutshell.

Years and years and years of rewarding the supply side (the rich) while demanding that the demand side (the working class) pay most of the bills.

Well, now the rich have the vast majority of the money and how well is the economy going?

 

[FXASHUN]

No you have to invest it into productive projects that actually have some benefit to society.

Such as? Bridges and roads aren't really gonna make that much of a difference.

The government mostly doesn't hire anyone...it pays for profit companies to do work like building bridges and roads.

Direct hiring, hire by proxy, it's still the same. Just because I buy my milk at the store just means I've hired the guy to milk the cow and another one to bring it to the market. Either way, the government still makes it's money through taxes, and you can't tax more money than you pay.

It doesn't...it creates fiat dollars (or borrows money from other economies) to foot the costs temperarily hoping that by breaking increasing confidence (because people have jobs) those who are hoarding their money right now will start spending it again.

Smart people are hoarding their money because they see that we are decimating our infrastructure. When we have no manufacturing economy and our intellectual economy is leaving with it, there are fewer "economies" to borrow from. Still a failing proposition.

That is true...except most of those fiat dollars went to a very small segment of the population who do not spend them, but rather who invested them in bubbles like real estate, bonds on real estate, the hi tech bubble and so forth.

You only need to spend so much to live. The rest are luxuries. Long term rich people don't spend money like poor people. They save. The richest people drive Accords, not Bentleys.

And then those bubble popped and suddenly there's no money in circulation and people get scared.

How did the massive spending of FIAT dollars that paid for WWII get us out of the depression?

That's, in theory, how this will work.

But as I have pointed out already, I grow increasingly less confident that the money we're currently going to spend is enough, AND it is going to exactly the wrong people, too.

On this we can agree. That theory worked because of the mass manufacturing base we used to have. It's dwindled to near nothing.

Our economy (and probably all the industrial economies on earth) are now so out of kilter precisely because too few people who too much money, and the consumers therefore do not have enough to SPEND MONEY.

It's way more complex than that, of course, but there's the root cause of our current crises in a nutshell.

The federal tax system only taxes what people earn, not what they have. You tax profits and earnings, but once money is yours, it's yours. No one can make you spend it.

Years and years and years of rewarding the supply side (the rich) while demanding that the demand side (the working class) pay most of the bills.

Well, now the rich have the vast majority of the money and how well is the economy going?

So what are you suggesting? Raiding rich people's bank accounts and taking their money?

 

[sealybobo]

Sorry for being so partisan, but lets not forget that the GOP along with Clinton sent jobs overseas. We need to get those jobs back home. I don't know about you guys, but I'm done listening to Republicans cry PROTECTIONALISM and ISOLATIONISM when we talk about bringing jobs back home.

They are soooo concerned with the corporations profits. FUCK the corporation. Fuck the CEO's giving themselves bonus' with the bailout money. What did Obama call it? Disgusting? What did Bush call it? Free market.

Bring manufacturing back home. We had a god damn economy. That's how you fix the fucking economy. Have an economy. Stop giving it to China. Who says we have to buy from China? But then we owe China everything, which means they own us.

But they don't own the international bankers who sold China this country. Who cares about one country when you can obtain the world.

We own this country. Time to take it back.

You guys want the government to do the right thing. Call them!!!!

 

[Bern80]

They attacked Clinton like this too.

What is one suppossed to do when they feel ones policies are wrong?

I just wish they would stop playing politics. The GOP are more worried about the 2010 election than they are the fucked up economy.

You're right they probably were worried about re-election and not pissing off their constiuency. Isn't that what our elected officials are suppossed to do? Don't we elect them to do what we want them to do? I think maybe what we're seeing are some Americans finally waking up. Remember the first bail out? Remember how almost everyone thought it was a done deal? Maybe what congress didn't count on was their phones ringing off the hooks with disgusted Americans. I can't really complain that the right's motivation was getting re-elected as a result of listening to their constiuents. Perhaps you should be asking why the left didn't listen to their constituents.

 

[WillowTree]

Let's wait and see if Obama does get back with those who opposed the bill simply because they were republicans. He may have more up his sleeve than meets the eye.

I would love to have a Dem president who knows how to play hardball with a bunch of repubs who haven't realized yet that they lost this election and lost power in the house and senate.

This is the same shit they attacked FDR with. The New Deal did work.

You keep saying stupid inane shit like this. Of course they realize it. That dosen't mean they have to cave to stupid ideas does it? No, it dosen't.

 

[sealybobo]

What is one suppossed to do when they feel ones policies are wrong?

I just wish they would stop playing politics. The GOP are more worried about the 2010 election than they are the fucked up economy.

You're right they probably were worried about re-election and not pissing off their constiuency. Isn't that what our elected officials are suppossed to do? Don't we elect them to do what we want them to do? I think maybe what we're seeing are some Americans finally waking up. Remember the first bail out? Remember how almost everyone thought it was a done deal? Maybe what congress didn't count on was their phones ringing off the hooks with disgusted Americans. I can't really complain that the right's motivation was getting re-elected as a result of listening to their constiuents. Perhaps you should be asking why the left didn't listen to their constituents.

I don't think it is Republican voters who are leading the way in the GOP buddy. I thnk it's the corporate media and John Boehner/McCain liars that tell people like you lies and get your broke ass to vote against your own best interests.


Are you a corporation or a bank? Then you're an idiot.