Zone1 I am stepping away from Judaism

[hobelim]

Saint Ding is stuck.

And some people don't believe the Law of God remains in effect and in full force.

Imagine that!

 

[Meriweather]

I got your point about the 'cherry tree'. It was your way of comparing and demeaning my childhood compared to yours. Now that you bring the cherry tree up again, I've paid closer attention to it and understand your purpose. It's out of character for you. Hence, Ding being close by.

You didn't get it then, and you don't get it now. Shrug.

 

[Meriweather]

May I ask you who introduced you to god, and at what age?

Or was it more like god just coming into your toddler's mind because of some outside influence other than your parents?

My parents, grandparents, church, Little Golden Books. Even then I didn't agree with all their conclusions, hence my own search.

 

[Meriweather]

You've suggested that you became a believer at a very young age. As a 'toddler', you suggest that you knew your god. Now we all know something more about you.

I didn't suggest that at all. I said that is when I began searching.

 

[hobelim]

So you aren't a fan of God's law. Noted, but so what?

So what?

Look at the many wonderful things setting aside the Law of God and turning to a trinity to worship, a god made man made matzo made by human hands, to eat for spiritual life has done to his soul.

It awesome.

 

[Meriweather]

I think you should expect to be able to hold all the pieces to the puzzle. Doesn't anybody understand completely? I think that if you don't then there's little hope for anyone else on this board understanding!

I do not expect to totally understand the mind and being of God any more than I expect my chinchillas to totally understand my mind and being. The differences between God and mankind are too great.

So yes, I agree that it's a puzzle. The Catholic church has only added to the confusion you're facing, by introducing new interpretations of the bibles, that lack unanimous agreement among Catholics themselves.

There has to be a wise bible scholar somewhere who can clarify all the truths and dispense with all the debating and misunderstanding.

First, what confusion am I facing? And, specifically, how has the Church added to that particular confusion? There are many Bible scholars that explain and expand. Most are wonderful. I especially appreciate Rabbi and Catholic scholars.

 

[hobelim]

No. I am following God. You aren't.

What God told you to disregard the Law and seek spiritual life from bread made by human hands?

 

[hobelim]

He was a creature of God. Just like everyone else.

According to 1 John 3:4-10 only those who do what is right are the children of God.

 

[Donald H]

You didn't get it then, and you don't get it now. Shrug.

The 'cherry tree' analogy wasn't at all difficult to understand my friend. If you still think I missed the point then I'm eager to understand.

I think you're going to find that I got more meaning out of it then you intended. You've told me that you had accepted your god as a toddler. That's not necessarily saying you were indoctrinated and it's not me saying that either. Don't hesitate on telling me how old you were. I find it important enough to ask.

If you don't hold all the answers to the puzzle, and suspect that you never will hold them all alone, then I can offer help.

I hold all the answers to the puzzle in question.

You can't just reject my answers on a hunch that I don't know. I'm wondering if the answers are there and always have been, but you haven't asked the right questions?

And so the same old, same old example of one of the questions. The big fish story. The answer I have waiting for you is really the answer for all the questions on the puzzle.

 

[Donald H]

I didn't suggest that at all. I said that is when I began searching.

All right then, as a toddler you began searching for answers, because you didn't completely accept the input you received from gp's, parents, little golden books, etc.

Did you discover that they were wrong in some instances?

Of course you did because they were only right in what they believed, during the years you were a toddler and not right on what you now believe.

As a toddler, if you read that Albert Einstein didn't believe in the church's god, would you have told him that he was wrong?

I have the answers when you learn to ask the right questions. Or even better if you already know the right questions!

 

[Meriweather]

And so, I once again return to the 'big fish' story, but it could be any bible story. Who are you to say that your version is correct when the majority of Catholics through the ages agree on it being a literally true story?

Who said my understanding is the one and only or even the "correct" one? And why is "one, correct" version so important to you? Bible accounts teach lessons. Just as a view can be seen from many different perspectives, so can Biblical teachings. As best I can, I try to dig into the intent of the original author to his original audience. It's why I study etymology. Some people learn by understanding another's perspective of the Bible--for example, Martin Luther's or Thomas Jefferson's. I have seven siblings, parents, grandparents, and a large extended family. Let something happen in front of all of us, and everyone had their own, unique perspective.

Part of Catholic school teaching was learning about how many great Saints differed in their understandings with each other. We had people from other denominations talk to us about their beliefs, especially those that differed from Catholic beliefs. No one cringed in horror or were the least confused by these different perspectives.

Who are all these Catholics you say agreed the Bible stories were literal? I've told you before. A hundred years ago my Catholic grandmother never took everything literally, so it is probably safe to assume neither did her parents or even grandparents. None of Grandma's accounts of her own Catholic upbringing included anything close to, "And boy did my take on the Bible upset my mom an dad--not to mention fellow parishioners." It's about the lessons being presented in story form that are discussed and expanded upon, a point you cannot seem to grasp. You are too caught up in whether or not Jonah actually spent three days in an actual fish! Meanwhile, I don't care whether he did or he didn't. Jonah's experience was that he ran from God's call to duty and ended up in a dark place.

 

[Meriweather]

I hold all the pieces to your puzzle! I want to share what I know!

I'll listen.

 

[Donald H]

I do not expect to totally understand the mind and being of God any more than I expect my chinchillas to totally understand my mind and being. The differences between God and mankind are too great.

First, what confusion am I facing? And, specifically, how has the Church added to that particular confusion? There are many Bible scholars that explain and expand. Most are wonderful. I especially appreciate Rabbi and Catholic scholars.

You said that you don't hold all the answers and don't expect to ever hold them.

The confusion added by the Catholic church is in it's acceptance of evolution, instead of creation.

I have the answer to any questions you have on that, when you have the courage to ask.

And I have an answer to all the bible stories that are still causing you confusion that makes you feel that you will never hold all the pieces of the puzzle.

 

[Meriweather]

All right then, as a toddler you began searching for answers, because you didn't completely accept the input you received from gp's, parents, little golden books, etc.

Did you discover that they were wrong in some instances?

Of course you did because they were only right in what they believed, during the years you were a toddler and not right on what you now believe.

As a toddler, if you read that Albert Einstein didn't believe in the church's god, would you have told him that he was wrong?

I have the answers when you learn to ask the right questions. Or even better if you already know the right questions!

Wrong. I did accept the input, which is why I launched my own search for God. If Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. could meet up with God, so could I. My parents told me that God no longer worked like that. Too bad. If He did it then, He could do with me! (Did I tell you I was stubborn?)

Why would I have told Albert Einstein he was wrong when I didn't believe my atheist grandfather was wrong?

As I remarked before. Talk/write. I'll listen/read.

 

[Meriweather]

I have the answer to any questions you have on that, when you have the courage to ask.

And I have an answer to all the bible stories that are still causing you confusion that makes you feel that you will never hold all the pieces of the puzzle.

Listen. I have no confusion. That is your image of me. What I don't have is all the answers and don't expect to in this life. It's not courage I lack, Donald. What I lack is interest. Still, if you wish to speak, as I said twice before, I'll listen.

 

[Donald H]

Who said my understanding is the one and only or even the "correct" one? And why is "one, correct" version so important to you?

We're not here together to ask questions and then settle with no answers or wrong answers. Would you prefer that I not be interested?

Bible accounts teach lessons. Just as a view can be seen from many different perspectives, so can Biblical teachings. As best I can, I try to dig into the intent of the original author to his original audience. It's why I study etymology. Some people learn by understanding another's perspective of the Bible--for example, Martin Luther's or Thomas Jefferson's. I have seven siblings, parents, grandparents, and a large extended family. Let something happen in front of all of us, and everyone had their own, unique perspective.

So give me a chance. Ask the question and I'll answer it (them) for you. You always have the option of not accepting the answer.

Part of Catholic school teaching was learning about how many great Saints differed in their understandings with each other.

There's an easy answer as soon as you ask for it.

We had people from other denominations talk to us about their beliefs, especially those that differed from Catholic beliefs. No one cringed in horror or were the least confused by these different perspectives.

All of the demoninations had it wrong, except one. Ask the question on the specific misunderstanding, if it's not just plain wrong on their part.

Who are all these Catholics you say agreed the Bible stories were literal

Not all the bible stories and not just Catholics. Ask me about any of the stories that are accepted as literal, that can't possibly be.

? I've told you before. A hundred years ago my Catholic grandmother never took everything literally, so it is probably safe to assume neither did her parents or even grandparents. None of Grandma's accounts of her own Catholic upbringing included anything close to, "And boy did my take on the Bible upset my mom an dad--not to mention fellow parishioners." It's about the lessons being presented in story form that are discussed and expanded upon, a point you cannot seem to grasp. You are too caught up in whether or not Jonah actually spent three days in an actual fish! Meanwhile, I don't care whether he did or he didn't. Jonah's experience was that he ran from God's call to duty and ended up in a dark place.

Your granny was a rare exception. You can start by being honest about that. For as long as I can remember from our discussions, I haven't suggested that the bible stories are literally true, or have to be true.

I have the answers for all the stories that are contested, but you have to want to know the answers.

Fwiw at this point, we can believe that your granny didn't agree with your parents, golden books, etc.

 

[Donald H]

Listen. I have no confusion. That is your image of me. What I don't have is all the answers and don't expect to in this life. It's not courage I lack, Donald. What I lack is interest. Still, if you wish to speak, as I said twice before, I'll listen.

You told me that you were still searching for the pieces of the puzzle, and that you would never hold all of them.

 

[Meriweather]

You told me that you were still searching for the pieces of the puzzle, and that you would never hold all of them.

Let me clarify. I am not searching for pieces of the puzzle. I said each of us holds a piece of the (vast, and in this life--unknowable) puzzle. But...since you already know all the knowledge and all secrets of the universe both in this life and the next, you can share--or not--as it suits you. I'll listen.