Is Income Inequality Leading To A Crisis For Capitalism?

[Katzndogz]

At the time of the civil war slavery was already on its way out. It had ended in Europe as being too expensive and would have ended in the US within a few years. Once the Industrial Revolution occurred, keeping a slave was simply cost prohibitive. They had to be fed, clothed, sheltered. They got tired, some were lazy, some got sick and the slave owner had to take care of them even to pay a doctor to treat them. Machines never got tired, they were never lazy, and never got sick. One man and a machine could do the work of 20 or more slaves.

Historically, the great structures of the past could have been built in a comparably short time with a decent construction crew and modern equipment instead of thousands of slaves. At the time, they didn't have modern equipment but they did have thousands of slaves.

 

[georgephillip]

Do you think private fortunes would have come into existence without chattel slavery?

Pretty much nothing would have come into existence without chattel slavery. Slavery wasn't invented by the Confederacy. It is utterly idiotic to take standards of today and apply them to the entirety of past history. There was no machinery, no industry, there was no concept of working for wages. At best a freeman working for someone would be a child apprenticed out (sold) to learn a trade. In exchange he got room, board and basic necessities. The artists who decorated the tombs of the Pharoahs were slaves as much as those who built them. Temple and court physicians were slaves. Everyone who wasn't a slave owner was a slave or ekeing out some kind of living in the hinterlands.

Lets go back through the historical record and condemn slavery because the slaves weren't employees. Ridiculous and idiotic to the nth degree.

Are you saying civilization as we know it was built by slaves?
Without slavery there would be no Manhattan?
Private fortunes require war and debt today in the same way they always have.
Just as chattel slavery in the US could've been taxed into extinction in the decades between Valley Forge and Cold Harbor, private fortunes could be exterminated today with greater freedom for almost everyone.

 

[georgephillip]

At the time of the civil war slavery was already on its way out. It had ended in Europe as being too expensive and would have ended in the US within a few years. Once the Industrial Revolution occurred, keeping a slave was simply cost prohibitive. They had to be fed, clothed, sheltered. They got tired, some were lazy, some got sick and the slave owner had to take care of them even to pay a doctor to treat them. Machines never got tired, they were never lazy, and never got sick. One man and a machine could do the work of 20 or more slaves.

Historically, the great structures of the past could have been built in a comparably short time with a decent construction crew and modern equipment instead of thousands of slaves. At the time, they didn't have modern equipment but they did have thousands of slaves.

Did the cotton gin enhance or diminish US slave power?
Slavery ended in Europe and elsewhere because a majority of human beings have always found it suicidal to the nth degree. Wage slavery will become the next form of involuntary servitude to become extinct, in spite of ridiculous and idiotic apologists for capitalism.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

We don't have capitalism.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

We don't have capitalism.

interesting isn't it, a liberal lacks the IQ to know what capitalism is and yet it is the enemy.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Wage slavery will become the next form of involuntary servitude to become extinct, in spite of ridiculous and idiotic apologists for capitalism.

how on earth is it slavery when,

1) you are free to take or quit a job?

2) employers must pay some people: entertainers, athletes, doctors, business executives) millions per year?

3) when an employer must pay the higest wage possible or lose his best workers to those who will pay more.

4) you are free not to work for wages at all and can be among the 33 million who operate their own businesses?

I think George is Rdean since the posts are unusually stupid

 

[regent]

A case was made at one time on the benefits of poverty. It was explained to the elite how poverty enhanced their pocket books. I think the practice of extolling the virtues of povery even had a name, Utility of Poverty. Poverty was useful and had a place in an economic system.

 

[Uncensored2008]

how on earth is it slavery when,

1) you are free to take or quit a job?

2) employers must pay some people: entertainers, athletes, doctors, business executives) millions per year?

3) when an employer must pay the higest wage possible or lose his best workers to those who will pay more.

4) you are free not to work for wages at all and can be among the 33 million who operate their own businesses?

I think George is Rdean since the posts are unusually stupid

If George had the ability to reason, to draw logical conclusions from available facts, he wouldn't be a Communist.

I'm just sayin....

 

[georgephillip]

Last fall I heard an Economic professor claim that Communism has never been put into practice.
What are you sayin 'bout that?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Last fall I heard an Economic professor claim that Communism has never been put into practice.
What are you sayin 'bout that?

That last fall you listened to an ignorant fool.

I doubt you had the knowledge to ask about Lenin abolishing currency in St. Petersberg in 1921-22, the use of Soviets to determine the needs and responsibilities of each person. You didn't point out that this was pure communism - the dictatorship of the proletariat exactly as Marx described.

No, of course you didn't.

An economics professor who was ignorant of economic events - damned sure HE voted for Obama.

 

[starcraftzzz]

Economist's View: Inequality "Has Deep Pernicious Effects"
^Living near richer people results in consumption habits that are inefficient such as purchasing more jewelry and other non-living standard increasing goods

Growth that is centered around poor to middle class citizens is more efficient then growth center around rich people because rich people speculate in CDO's, and other markets while poor people spend on demand orientated goods, also rich people compete for goods whose supply is arbitrary limited for example first class seats, expensive restaurants, and beach front property.

Economic Issues 1 -- Growth in East Asia
^The success of the Asian Tigers can be attributed to a good primary education system and low income inequality.

http://www.ijeronline.com/documents/volumes/Vol 2 issue 5/ijer20110205SO(2).pdf
^Regressional statistical models and empirical evidence form several studies conclude that increases in income inequality lower GDP growth. Partly due to an inability for the larger poorer population from being able to invest

Study: Income Inequality Kills Economic Growth | Mother Jones
^Empirical study looking at Asia, and Latin America finds that upticks in income inequality resulted in less GPD growth. This can be partly explained by an increase in debt/speculative economic growth rather than income/demand growth.
^A 10% decrease in inequality results in a 50% longer growth spell

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/sdn/2011/sdn1108.pdf
^IMF Chappeons of austerity conclude that more inequality leads to less sustained growth

^Income inequality also lowers growth because when the very wealthy increase their consumption it’, on goods that are pure luxury instead of goods that increase wellbeing. For example a poor person who sees an influx in income will more likely spend that income on healthcare, healthier food, or other goods that have investment returns, while a rich person is more likely to get jewelry, or private jets.

^Income inequality also lowers growth because when the very wealthy increase their consumption it’, on goods that have productive constraints.
For example a poor person who sees an influx in income is more likely to purchase basic goods like clothes, food, or appliances whose production can be increased easily via more labor harvesting, while a rich person is more likely to buy collectable items, beach front properties, or wines from a special region all goods whose production cannot be increases purely by increases labor or harvesting.

 

[georgephillip]

Last fall I heard an Economic professor claim that Communism has never been put into practice.
What are you sayin 'bout that?

That last fall you listened to an ignorant fool.

I doubt you had the knowledge to ask about Lenin abolishing currency in St. Petersberg in 1921-22, the use of Soviets to determine the needs and responsibilities of each person. You didn't point out that this was pure communism - the dictatorship of the proletariat exactly as Marx described.

No, of course you didn't.

An economics professor who was ignorant of economic events - damned sure HE voted for Obama.

Lenin abolished the Soviets and put a great deal of currency in Arman Hammer's bank accounts.
What role did Wall Street parasites play in Lenin's glorious revolution?
Btw, that professor was a SHE but may have voted for Obama.
Who did you vote for? (Nader was my choice)
I"ll probably vote Socialist in 2012...you??

 

[TakeAStepBack]

 

[Uncensored2008]

Lenin abolished the Soviets and put a great deal of currency in Arman Hammer's bank accounts.

Of course he did, Communism was an utter failure.

What role did Wall Street parasites play in Lenin's glorious revolution?
Btw, that professor was a SHE but may have voted for Obama.

She is a stupid as a toad, of course she voted for Obama.

Who did you vote for? (Nader was my choice)

Bob Barr.

I"ll probably vote Socialist in 2012...you??

Anyone but Obama.

 

[Toro]

Capitalism Seen in Crisis by Investors Citing Inequalities

International investors say capitalism is in crisis, with almost one in three backing radical changes to the system, according to a Bloomberg survey.

As the global financial and business elite gather in Davos for their annual forum, a majority in the Bloomberg Global Poll agree that income inequality hurts the economy and that governments need to do something to address it -- ideas at the heart of “Occupy” protests worldwide. Those surveyed also voice reservations about the financial industry’s role in society, with seven in 10 seeing at least some truth in the argument that banks have too much power over governments.

“Capitalism is in crisis because there is a huge and growing disparity in income/wealth distribution in Western economies, and an equally divisive generational disparity,” poll participant Michael Derks, chief strategist for FXPro Financial Services broker in London, said in an e-mail.

<snip>

"There is a large and growing wealth disparity and I think it is unhealthy,” Steve Morton, a director at Natixis Securities in New York who took part in the survey, said in an e-mail. “The lower levels of the pyramid don’t have enough money to buy things and keep the economy going.”

<snip>

The banking culture has evolved radically, to the point where the perception amongst most members of society is that their actions are driven by the relentless pursuit of earnings with no regard to their potential negative impact on communities,” said Anson Rosewall, a poll participant and sales trader at BBY Ltd., a financial services firm in Sydney, Australia.

“The fact that banks have taken government cash, while the average person has lost his job and house without help, will probably forever tarnish the reputation of these major institutions,” he said in an e-mail.

The gap between rich and poor is widening across most developed economies as executives, bankers and skilled workers reap more rewards, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said last month.

<snip>

The 459 U.S. investors who answered the survey view capitalism more favorably than their counterparts elsewhere, with roughly one in five saying the system needs an overhaul, according to the poll.
Capitalism Seen in Crisis by Investors Citing Inequalities - Bloomberg

The US investors have a more rosey outlook, maybe because Chart 1 leads to Chart 2?

Discuss.

I don't think its a crisis, but if people don't get what they think is fair out of the economic arena, they'll try to take it out of the political arena.

Societies generally become more unstable when inequality gets too high. It's best if everyone at large is advancing.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It's best if everyone at large is advancing.

You don't need to be an economist to see how rich everyone got. Just look at all the new inventions they could suddenly afford in the last 10 years: suddenly we had plasma TV's, LCD TV's, DLP-TV's, iPods, ipads, iphones, CD's and CD players, DVDs and DVD players, Blue Ray and Blue Ray players, PCs, desk top PCs, DVRs, color printers, satellite radio, Advantium ovens, HD-TV, Playstations, X-Boxes, X-box live, X-box Konnect, broadband, satellite TV, cell/camera/video phones, digital cameras, OnStar, palm corders, Blackberries, smart phones, home theaters, SUVs, big houses, more houses per capita, TiVo, 3D movies and TV's, built in wine coolers, granite counter tops, $200 sneakers, color matched front loader washing machines, matching washer dryer combinations, McMansions, 6 burner commercial ranges, Sub Zero refridgerators, more cars than drivers, a $1 billion ring tone industry, a pet industry that just doubled to $34 billion, 10's of millions lining up to buy Apple's I-tablet, Wii, Netflix boxes, jet skis, low profile tires, aluminum/titanium rims, Harley Davidson and Japanese motorcycles. $700 Billion spent Christmas 2010, $10.5 billion movies 2010, 10 million ocean crusies, 44 million taking plane flights over 2012 holiday, $500 billion spent on Christmas 2012.

The list goes on and on. I hope that helps you realize you can't just parrot the communist press and expect to make sense? They have other objectives and are merely using you to promote their point of

 

[itfitzme]

Last fall I heard an Economic professor claim that Communism has never been put into practice.
What are you sayin 'bout that?

What exactly did your professor say? There is theoretical Communism, Communism as practiced by the USSR, theoretical Socialism, and Socialism as practiced by China.

The problem with Marx's Communism is that it cannot be implemented in practice. In practice, the Communism as practiced by the USSR could not lead to theoretical Socialism. And the Socialism practiced by China is obviously not leading to theoretical Socialism but rather a mixed economy.

 

[itfitzme]

It's best if everyone at large is advancing.

You don't need to be an economist to see how rich everyone got. Just look at all the new inventions they could suddenly afford in the last 10 years: suddenly we had plasma TV's, LCD TV's, DLP-TV's, iPods, ipads, iphones, CD's and CD players, DVDs and DVD players, Blue Ray and Blue Ray players, PCs, desk top PCs, DVRs, color printers, satellite radio, Advantium ovens, HD-TV, Playstations, X-Boxes, X-box live, X-box Konnect, broadband, satellite TV, cell/camera/video phones, digital cameras, OnStar, palm corders, Blackberries, smart phones, home theaters, SUVs, big houses, more houses per capita, TiVo, 3D movies and TV's, built in wine coolers, granite counter tops, $200 sneakers, color matched front loader washing machines, matching washer dryer combinations, McMansions, 6 burner commercial ranges, Sub Zero refridgerators, more cars than drivers, a $1 billion ring tone industry, a pet industry that just doubled to $34 billion, 10's of millions lining up to buy Apple's I-tablet, Wii, Netflix boxes, jet skis, low profile tires, aluminum/titanium rims, Harley Davidson and Japanese motorcycles. $700 Billion spent Christmas 2010, $10.5 billion movies 2010, 10 million ocean crusies, 44 million taking plane flights over 2012 holiday, $500 billion spent on Christmas 2012.

The list goes on and on. I hope that helps you realize you can't just parrot the communist press and expect to make sense? They have other objectives and are merely using you to promote their point of

It is called debt, borrowing from the future. It's called a credit card. You cannot measure income by looking at expenditures because expenditures are income plus credit.

Your doing it like my neighbor who looked like the wealthiest guy on the block, until he had to declare bankruptcy.

Inventions don't equal increase standard of living. I buy a TV, my neighbor buys a motorcycle. That isn't the same as I buy a TV and a motorcycle and my neighbor does the same. In the last five years, aggregate productivity, employment, and standard of living went into the crapper.

Also, as a product matures, it becomes cheaper. An increase in quantity doesn't mean people all got rich enough to afford it at the initial price.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It's best if everyone at large is advancing.

You don't need to be an economist to see how rich everyone got. Just look at all the new inventions they could suddenly afford in the last 10 years: suddenly we had plasma TV's, LCD TV's, DLP-TV's, iPods, ipads, iphones, CD's and CD players, DVDs and DVD players, Blue Ray and Blue Ray players, PCs, desk top PCs, DVRs, color printers, satellite radio, Advantium ovens, HD-TV, Playstations, X-Boxes, X-box live, X-box Konnect, broadband, satellite TV, cell/camera/video phones, digital cameras, OnStar, palm corders, Blackberries, smart phones, home theaters, SUVs, big houses, more houses per capita, TiVo, 3D movies and TV's, built in wine coolers, granite counter tops, $200 sneakers, color matched front loader washing machines, matching washer dryer combinations, McMansions, 6 burner commercial ranges, Sub Zero refridgerators, more cars than drivers, a $1 billion ring tone industry, a pet industry that just doubled to $34 billion, 10's of millions lining up to buy Apple's I-tablet, Wii, Netflix boxes, jet skis, low profile tires, aluminum/titanium rims, Harley Davidson and Japanese motorcycles. $700 Billion spent Christmas 2010, $10.5 billion movies 2010, 10 million ocean crusies, 44 million taking plane flights over 2012 holiday, $500 billion spent on Christmas 2012.

The list goes on and on. I hope that helps you realize you can't just parrot the communist press and expect to make sense? They have other objectives and are merely using you to promote their point of

It is called debt, borrowing from the future. It's called a credit card. You cannot measure income by looking at expenditures because expenditures are income plus credit.

Your doing it like my neighbor who looked like the wealthiest guy on the block, until he had to declare bankruptcy.

Inventions don't equal increase standard of living. I buy a TV, my neighbor buys a motorcycle. That isn't the same as I buy a TV and a motorcycle and my neighbor does the same. In the last five years, aggregate productivity, employment, and standard of living went into the crapper.

Also, as a product matures, it becomes cheaper. An increase in quantity doesn't mean people all got rich enough to afford it at the initial price.

individuals reach the end of their credit line fairly quickly, (especially when they can't tap home equity) but as we speak they are lining up by the millions for the new Ipad, a decade after their first $3000 Plazma TV. Sorry!

We have BO and China has Jiaboa but still just a little capitalism survives and goes a long long transformative way. Imagine if liberals were made illegal and we had full out capitalism?

 

[Toro]

It's best if everyone at large is advancing.

You don't need to be an economist to see how rich everyone got. Just look at all the new inventions they could suddenly afford in the last 10 years: suddenly we had plasma TV's, LCD TV's, DLP-TV's, iPods, ipads, iphones, CD's and CD players, DVDs and DVD players, Blue Ray and Blue Ray players, PCs, desk top PCs, DVRs, color printers, satellite radio, Advantium ovens, HD-TV, Playstations, X-Boxes, X-box live, X-box Konnect, broadband, satellite TV, cell/camera/video phones, digital cameras, OnStar, palm corders, Blackberries, smart phones, home theaters, SUVs, big houses, more houses per capita, TiVo, 3D movies and TV's, built in wine coolers, granite counter tops, $200 sneakers, color matched front loader washing machines, matching washer dryer combinations, McMansions, 6 burner commercial ranges, Sub Zero refridgerators, more cars than drivers, a $1 billion ring tone industry, a pet industry that just doubled to $34 billion, 10's of millions lining up to buy Apple's I-tablet, Wii, Netflix boxes, jet skis, low profile tires, aluminum/titanium rims, Harley Davidson and Japanese motorcycles. $700 Billion spent Christmas 2010, $10.5 billion movies 2010, 10 million ocean crusies, 44 million taking plane flights over 2012 holiday, $500 billion spent on Christmas 2012.

The list goes on and on. I hope that helps you realize you can't just parrot the communist press and expect to make sense? They have other objectives and are merely using you to promote their point of

Do you hear that?

That's the sound of the point going way over your head.

Like it often does.