Japan is planning to build huge floating solar power plants

[ShackledNation]

Solar is great, during the day. It can ADD to a nation's power grid, but it cannot (yet) replace other means of energy production. This idea looks good on paper, but has massive vulnerabilities. No need to blow anything up, just cut the power line, and one cyclone would at least put it out of production if not totally destroy it.

Wind is even less reliable. Now if we could put some windmills up in the jet stream...

Solar energy produced during the day can be stored for use at night. Nuclear, coal, and other power plants can just as equally be blown up, so that is not in any way a drawback of solar power.

In fact, if solar panels were installed on all buildings, power generation would be more spread out and thus more secure.

Unfortunately, that is not true. Electricity is notoriously hard to store. That is why the power plants have to be careful to only produce as much power as is needed at the moment. Solar energy will have to be stored as something other than electricity.

Electricity is hard to store, very true. But you are incorrect that solar energy cannot be stored. There have been several recent innovations in this respect. Here is just one example.
Solar Thermophotovoltaic Cells Can Generate Electricity at Night ENGINEERING.com

Here is another example of storing energy.
Pumped-storage hydroelectricity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It is difficult, but with a power grid it is very possible.

And how much will it cost, and how long will it take to bring those to maturity so they can replace fossil fuels? Answer to both, a lot.

Sure, a lot. But no longer than it would take to build a new coal power plant, or store excess energy produced by coal, etc. Your point was that solar energy is a problem because electricity is hard to store. I showed you examples of technology that demonstrates solar energy can in fact be stored. In response, you change the subject to costs, changing the line of argument.

I disagree. The whole point to my argument is that it will take far more than today's solar technology to replace fossil fuel energy production. We're headed in a good direction, and in the future, solar may well play a significant role, but the dream of solar powering the world isn't going to happen in our lifetimes, unless someone can figure out how to get massive panels into space where the sun doesn't set, and get the electricity back to earth. Now, as to storing electricity produced by coal, we don't. We just don't burn the coal unless extra power is needed. That's called capacity, and why you hear about power plants running at less then 100%. They need to be able to take units offline for maintenance, for example, without disrupting power production.

Well that changes the argument. It would take the same amount of time to build a solar power plant as a coal plant. Maybe even less time. But now you are saying it would take a longer time to replace all fossil fuel energy production with solar power than to just build more fossil power. Of course it would, but nobody was every saying anything contrary to that.

The argument is not "end fossil fuels now and instantly use solar power." The argument is that solar power is a viable energy source, and producing more solar power will allow us to gradually consume less fossil fuels. It is transitional, not instant.

As to the argument we do not store electricity produced by coal: that is not true. Power grid storage stores energy from the grid regardless of whether it was produced by the sun or by coal. This article by the Department of Energy goes into some detail about U.S. energy storage:
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/12/f5/Grid Energy Storage December 2013.pdf

"At present, the U.S. has about 24.6GW (approx. 2.3% of total electric production capacity) of grid storage, 95% of which is pumped storage hydro. Europe and Japan have notably higher fractions of grid storage." The report makes the argument that the U.S. would have a more efficient power grid with more energy storage. Keep in mind that energy storage does not segregate where the energy comes from before it is stored.

Also in the report:
"Until the mid-1980s energy storage was viewed by the electric utilities as a means to time shift energy produced by coal and nuclear units during off-peak hours to displace energy that would be produced from other more expensive fuels during on-peak periods."

Energy storage didn't arise because of solar power, it arose because at times there was a surplus of energy (nobody can predict with 100% certainty how much energy will be used at a given time) and that surplus would go wasted if not stored.

 

[elektra]

we have sources for power and do not need to waste a dime on Solar.

Its called Nuclear Power, why invest a Trillion dollars in Solar when that same money invested in Nuclear Power will power the world forever.

Big Government and Activists are making bad choices.

 

[Old Rocks]

Solar, a waste of land and fossil fuel, for the fools, solar is not, "manufactured", it's simply a miracle.

solar advocates are very ignorant.

So says the silly bastard that claims California is not in a drought.

 

[Old Rocks]

we have sources for power and do not need to waste a dime on Solar.

Its called Nuclear Power, why invest a Trillion dollars in Solar when that same money invested in Nuclear Power will power the world forever.

Big Government and Activists are making bad choices.

Want to see you electricity bill increase by a factor of four? Go all nuclear. It is the most expensive form of power.

 

[elektra]

we have sources for power and do not need to waste a dime on Solar.

Its called Nuclear Power, why invest a Trillion dollars in Solar when that same money invested in Nuclear Power will power the world forever.

Big Government and Activists are making bad choices.

Want to see you electricity bill increase by a factor of four? Go all nuclear. It is the most expensive form of power.

More of your bullshit Old Crock,

Our electricity bills are increasing right now, our water bills are increasing, our gasoline is increasing, all because of Solar and Wind Energy.

Today the biggest burden on energy is Green Energy, Green Energy is a heavy user of raw materials, of water, of coal, of petro-chemicals. All in the production. Green Energy is given free land, forgiven the burden of complying with regulations, Green Energy has cost us over 500 billion dollars.

Nothing is more expensive.

But Old Crock has a link to an activist website, so go to your "deck of cards" (google), draw your random activist paid advertising result, so we can see Old Crock play, Go Fish.

 

[elektra]

Solar, a waste of land and fossil fuel, for the fools, solar is not, "manufactured", it's simply a miracle.

solar advocates are very ignorant.

So says the silly bastard that claims California is not in a drought.

Old Crock, I never said California was not in a drought, quote me. Go ahead, quote. Should be fun to show yourself as a liar. Post the quote.

Old Crock the tired activist must lie, why is that, absence of facts or lack of intelligence.

 

[DelbertFlores]

While I love your energy posts Mathew there are some things that bother me about these solar displays. If someone from a radical Islamic group wanted to degrade our energy grid these solar things look awful easy to blow up. I have to wonder what a sunami would do to this. It isn't all pie in the sky.

Do these panels kill birds after getting excess heated? i am not sure these are good for nature..

 

[DelbertFlores]

While I love your energy posts Mathew there are some things that bother me about these solar displays. If someone from a radical Islamic group wanted to degrade our solar energy grid these solar things look awful easy to blow up. I have to wonder what a sunami would do to this. It isn't all pie in the sky.

Do these panels kill birds after getting excess heated? i am not sure these are good for nature..

No reply yet?

 

[OnePercenter]

we have sources for power and do not need to waste a dime on Solar.

Its called Nuclear Power, why invest a Trillion dollars in Solar when that same money invested in Nuclear Power will power the world forever.

Big Government and Activists are making bad choices.

Where do you dump the nuclear waste?

 

[WelfareQueen]

Japan is planning to build huge floating solar power plants

Fiona MacDonald
Monday, 01 September 2014

Japan may be short on free land space, but that’s not stopping them from investing in renewable energy. Solar panel company Kyocera Corp, Century Tokyo Leasing Corp and Ciel Terre have announced (release in Japanese) that they're teaming up to create two huge floating solar power plants which will be up and running by April next year.

These are just the first two of a planned network of around 30 floating 2 megawatt (MW) power plants, capable of generating a combined 60 MW of power, a spokesperson from Kyocera told Chisaki Watanabe from Bloomberg.

Read more: http://www.scienceal...0109-26104.html

----


Between offshore wind and offshore solar. The entire world could be powered this way!

I think it's great! Should power the grid really well at 3am.

 

[OnePercenter]

we have sources for power and do not need to waste a dime on Solar.

Its called Nuclear Power, why invest a Trillion dollars in Solar when that same money invested in Nuclear Power will power the world forever.

Big Government and Activists are making bad choices.

Where do you dump the nuclear waste?

No reply yet?

 

[Zander]

I wish them luck and great success.

Solar, Wind, Oil, Coal, Nuclear, Hydroelectric, GeoThermal, etc, I vote for an "all of the above" approach when it comes to energy. The number one goal of the US Government should be 100% ENERGY INDEPENDENCE.

 

[elektra]

we have sources for power and do not need to waste a dime on Solar.

Its called Nuclear Power, why invest a Trillion dollars in Solar when that same money invested in Nuclear Power will power the world forever.

Big Government and Activists are making bad choices.

Where do you dump the nuclear waste?

You recycle it or keep it on site, I say recycle it in Breeder Reactors, like France. As it is now there is plenty of room to store it on site at nuclear power plants. In the course of my job I have had the thrill of looking into more than one spent fuel pool. Fresh spent fuel glows a cool blue. They keep spent fuel in a pool of water, they actually remove the fuel while its under water, the reactor is in a pool, literally, so that the water shields the workers from the water. Huge overhead crane removes the reactor head only when its submerged. The Hydrogen is a natural neutron absorber. That and the Boron they add, another element. Did you know you need Boron to make Giant Wind Turbines.

Funny you ask about pollution, I have yet to see the activist for solar ever even acknowledge the toxins and pollution the manufacture of solar creates, square miles of solar, hundreds literally and nobody ever says wow, that took a lot of heavy industry.

 

[elektra]

I wish them luck and great success.

Solar, Wind, Oil, Coal, Nuclear, Hydroelectric, GeoThermal, etc, I vote for an "all of the above" approach when it comes to energy. The number one goal of the US Government should be 100% ENERGY INDEPENDENCE.

solar and wind are dependent on an increase in oil production, got to remember they are the biggest things in the world

geothermal sucks as well, when you think about, geothermal is like a custom car, no two plants are the same. Chemistry and physical characteristics of the source thing.

and what do you think about the water solar needs, in the desert, seems someone has been screaming drought on these boards, you may not of seen those threads.

 

[Zander]

I wish them luck and great success.

Solar, Wind, Oil, Coal, Nuclear, Hydroelectric, GeoThermal, etc, I vote for an "all of the above" approach when it comes to energy. The number one goal of the US Government should be 100% ENERGY INDEPENDENCE.

solar and wind are dependent on an increase in oil production, got to remember they are the biggest things in the world

geothermal sucks as well, when you think about, geothermal is like a custom car, no two plants are the same. Chemistry and physical characteristics of the source thing.

and what do you think about the water solar needs, in the desert, seems someone has been screaming drought on these boards, you may not of seen those threads.

Our number 1 goal should be energy independence. Oil is a huge part of that.

 

[elektra]

I wish them luck and great success.

Solar, Wind, Oil, Coal, Nuclear, Hydroelectric, GeoThermal, etc, I vote for an "all of the above" approach when it comes to energy. The number one goal of the US Government should be 100% ENERGY INDEPENDENCE.

solar and wind are dependent on an increase in oil production, got to remember they are the biggest things in the world

geothermal sucks as well, when you think about, geothermal is like a custom car, no two plants are the same. Chemistry and physical characteristics of the source thing.

and what do you think about the water solar needs, in the desert, seems someone has been screaming drought on these boards, you may not of seen those threads.

Our number 1 goal should be energy independence. Oil is a huge part of that.

Using more oil to make huge solar plants that produce less, is not a solution

 

[AldenDerosier]

While I love your energy posts Mathew there are some things that bother me about these solar displays. If someone from a radical Islamic group wanted to degrade our energy grid these solar things look awful easy to blow up. I have to wonder what a sunami would do to this. It isn't all pie in the sky.

Yes it is pretty nice question but we can't be too negative..No one can control natural disasters..

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Japan is planning to build huge floating solar power plants

Fiona MacDonald
Monday, 01 September 2014

Japan may be short on free land space, but that’s not stopping them from investing in renewable energy. Solar panel company Kyocera Corp, Century Tokyo Leasing Corp and Ciel Terre have announced (release in Japanese) that they're teaming up to create two huge floating solar power plants which will be up and running by April next year.

These are just the first two of a planned network of around 30 floating 2 megawatt (MW) power plants, capable of generating a combined 60 MW of power, a spokesperson from Kyocera told Chisaki Watanabe from Bloomberg.

Read more: http://www.scienceal...0109-26104.html

----


Between offshore wind and offshore solar. The entire world could be powered this way!

About time. Seen this idea in Anime for years.

 

[Old Rocks]

I wish them luck and great success.

Solar, Wind, Oil, Coal, Nuclear, Hydroelectric, GeoThermal, etc, I vote for an "all of the above" approach when it comes to energy. The number one goal of the US Government should be 100% ENERGY INDEPENDENCE.

solar and wind are dependent on an increase in oil production, got to remember they are the biggest things in the world

geothermal sucks as well, when you think about, geothermal is like a custom car, no two plants are the same. Chemistry and physical characteristics of the source thing.

and what do you think about the water solar needs, in the desert, seems someone has been screaming drought on these boards, you may not of seen those threads.

Why yes, chemistry and physical characteristics of the source thing. Huge reserves of valuable minerals and creating energy at the same time. In Wyoming, a deep layer of brine, very hot, under high pressure, loaded with lithium. Geothermal and lithium in one place.

Massive deposit of lithium found in Wyoming could meet all U.S. demand TreeHugger




Michael Graham Richard (@Michael_GR)
Transportation / Cars
April 25, 2013

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Wikimedia/CC BY 3.0



Currently, the U.S. imports more than 80% of the lithium it uses
Despite the fact that Bolivia alone has enough lithium reserves for 4.8 billion electric cars and that lithium can be recycled from old batteries (it doesn't disappear after use like oil), some people are concerned about our civilization's increased dependence on the soft silver-white metal. It's true that the [Li] element is finding its way into everything, from phones to cars. But most signs seem to point toward lithium's availability going up and its price going down over time, not the reverse. This would be great for the electrification of transportation via plug-in hybrids and fully electric cars.

Jackpot
The latest development that supports that thesis comes from researchers at theUniversity of Wyoming. They've found lithium - a lot of it - in Rock Springs Uplift, a geological feature in southwest Wyoming. Data so far suggests that brines from a 25-square-mile area could contain 228,000 tons of lithium. That's enough to meet annual U.S. demand, and almost twice as much as the reserves from the biggest domestic lithium producer (located at Silver Peak, in Nevada).

Many factors make the location ideal for lithium production:

First, production of lithium from brines requires soda ash (sodium carbonate), and importation of soda ash to lithium production facilities often represents a large expense. However, the Rock Springs Uplift CO2 storage site is located within 20 to 30 miles of the world’s largest industrial soda ash supplies, so the costs of soda ash delivery (by rail, truck or pipeline) would be minimal.

Second, magnesium must be removed from brines before they can be used for lithium recovery, which makes the entire lithium recovery process more expensive. Fortunately, the brines from the Rock Springs Uplift reservoirs contain much less magnesium than brines at existing, currently profitable lithium mining operations.

Third, brines must be heated and pressurized before lithium can be extracted from them. However, because the Rock Springs Uplift brines lie so far underground, they are already at a higher pressure and temperature than brines at existing lithium operations. This would allow operators to essentially eliminate this step in the process, resulting in significant cost savings. (source)

 

[Old Rocks]

Then there is the Salton Sea Project.

Lithium the Salton Sea and a startup that 8217 s trying to change the game mdash Tech News and Analysis

Just south of the Salton Sea — the salty, shrinking 350-square-mile lake that wasformed as the result of an engineering accident in the early 1900s — a six-year-old tech startup has been extracting the “white gold” that lies thousands of feet below the surface. That valuable material, lithium, can be used in batteries for electric cars and cell phones, and the project has piqued enough interest that execs from a handful of battery makers, as well as electric car company Tesla, have visited the site.

On a typical baking-hot, dusty summer afternoon off an industrial road outside of Calipatria, California, Simbol Materials’ executives showed me the series of gray pipes and beige tanks that have so far extracted a few hundred tons of lithium product from the mixture of hot water and mineral deposits that’s pumped up to the surface by a neighboring geothermal power plant. Simbol’s plant collects this hot geothermal “brine,” purifies it, extracts the lithium — and in the future other valuable materials like manganese, zinc and potassium — and sends the water back to the geothermal plant to be reused in the system.