Justice for the Palestinians

[aris2chat]

So. On another thread someone said, "In all negotiations, justice (for the Palestinians) has been off the table".

Let's discuss. What does "justice" mean? What would justice for the Palestinians look like?

Well, for starters, The Palestinians should be allowed to go back to their homes.

homes they sold to Israelis, or homes they never actually owned?
How many generations and extended families do you think would fit in those old homes if they still existed?
Palestinians ran from their homes and did not claim them through legal means.

Where do you expect to put millions of Palestinians with the 300-500 million places the Palestinians left behind?
..........besides the fact they are now outdated and would be illegal into live in now if they were still standing.

Are the Palestinians going to pay the back taxes? Would they have jobs to pay for utilities? Would they be willing to become Israeli citizens?
Would those of age be wiling to attend Israeli schools and serve in the IDF? Would they contribute to Israel of expect to be a burden on the country, welfare seekers.

Why won't the WB or G take in their refugees around the world?

What homes do you think they should return to? Forged deeds and an old key that has no matching lock? They were being passed out like candy in the camps around Beirut.

Land they sold, will they return the money plus interest and taxes?

Why did the few of those who could have registered land fail to do so?

This idea of homes they left waiting for them is fallacy. Most worked the land but did not own it. What right to homes do they have?

Think in your area..... how many of the homes standing 70 yrs ago are still there? Were they all fitted with utilities? Would they still pass zoning and construction codes?

Palestinians left, Israel did not force them all out. A few thousand who were involved in violence maybe, but not the hundreds of thousands that became refugees.

You forget, they only had to live or work in the mandate for two years to be able to apply as refugees after they left

Most Palestinians today were not born in the mandate, but born as refugees in other countries.

Even if they were offered a chance to return, how many can say they had no involvement with terrorists or terror groups?

We are having problems with refugees in the west, Israel is too small to allow terrorist to live in Israel. Gaza can't even stop trying to attack Israel aver few days. It is like a default setting in their brains when it gets too quiet.

 

[Shusha]

they have fish farms,​

The entire west side of Gaza is on the Mediterranean.

Why would they have fish farms?

That's crazy.

Do you ever do any research before you comment? Gaza's fish farms produce 220 tons of fish per year. As compared to the 2 tons caught wild annually.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians created an identity about themselves too, to match the Jew identity. This match is unacceptable from the Jew point of view, even if it is this simple and logical.

Except that it isn't true. Hi. Nice to meet you. I'd like to introduce myself. I'm the one who supports a four State solution and fully supports Palestinian self-determination, self-government and sovereignty as well as fully supporting Jewish self-determination, self-government and sovereignty. My POV matches the POV of most Israelis, most Jews worldwide and most of the pro-Israeli posters on this board.

What would you consider "justice" for the Palestinians?

 

[Shusha]

So. On another thread someone said, "In all negotiations, justice (for the Palestinians) has been off the table".

Let's discuss. What does "justice" mean? What would justice for the Palestinians look like?

Well, for starters, The Palestinians should be allowed to go back to their homes.

Be more specific.

 

[anotherlife]

The Palestinians created an identity about themselves too, to match the Jew identity. This match is unacceptable from the Jew point of view, even if it is this simple and logical.

Except that it isn't true. Hi. Nice to meet you. I'd like to introduce myself. I'm the one who supports a four State solution and fully supports Palestinian self-determination, self-government and sovereignty as well as fully supporting Jewish self-determination, self-government and sovereignty. My POV matches the POV of most Israelis, most Jews worldwide and most of the pro-Israeli posters on this board.

What would you consider "justice" for the Palestinians?

Hi and it is nice to meet you here. I don't have a dog in this fight, and I look at it from the political science point of view. In my humble opinion, the 4 state solution is a very good solution, because this is the one closest to jimmy charters 1 state solution, providing the most freedom of movement. I speculate that the more the borders are the less significant they become. I can't imagine though how any border can be clearly defined in that region, because all the villages and settlements are mixed. It has never been tried in Israel, but other countries used time sharing government administrations with various success rates, to govern where borders were only ambiguous. What's your opinion about this? Or more interestingly, what principle would you use to define the borders of the 4 state solution?

The justice for Palestinians would probably include freedom of moving businesses, and a representative share in the government, but not on a headcount basis, but like the US Electoral College operates, protecting the minorities. Israel does not sabotage the Arabic languages, so the linguistic foundation of justice for Palestinians is already available. I think the entire question is somewhat administrative in the 21st century. By the way, a US Electoral College style Israeli - Palestinian electoral system with an added continuous representation for both can probably be designed.

Also, apart from our US model, there is the Austria-Hungary model too, where the two constituents share the policies of finance, foreign affairs, and defense, and administer the rest independently. Was stable enough in Austria-Hungary, lest a world war, and probably would be stable enough in Israel-Palestine too till ww3++.

 

[Shusha]

I can't imagine though how any border can be clearly defined in that region, because all the villages and settlements are mixed.

Here's a crazy idea: How about we let some Arab Israelis live in Israel. And we let some Jews live in Palestine. If they want to.

 

[anotherlife]

I can't imagine though how any border can be clearly defined in that region, because all the villages and settlements are mixed.

Here's a crazy idea: How about we let some Arab Israelis live in Israel. And we let some Jews live in Palestine. If they want to.

Yes, but in this case, what safeguards can be invented that they will not suffer institutional discrimination or adverse public sentiment against their business on the opponent's territory?

 

[Shusha]

Fleshing out my cheeky answer above:

Its still doable. (Though I would venture to say that it won't be for much longer). And its pretty much the territory shown on any map you want to bring up on which shows the "West Bank" -- with land swaps where Israel takes the settlements east of Jerusalem and swaps those out for territory in the north and around Gaza.

There will likely have to be a northern section of Palestine and a southern section with a security corridor between Jerusalem and the Jordan. But we could design the treaty to make that temporary if certain conditions are fulfilled and permanent if not. A "Palestinian only" highway or two or three would not be impossible.

 

[Shusha]

I can't imagine though how any border can be clearly defined in that region, because all the villages and settlements are mixed.

Here's a crazy idea: How about we let some Arab Israelis live in Israel. And we let some Jews live in Palestine. If they want to.

Yes, but in this case, what safeguards can be invented that they will not suffer institutional discrimination or adverse public sentiment against their business on the opponent's territory?

How about the same safeguards in place for all the other nations in the world?

 

[Shusha]

How about this map?

Green = Palestine. But join Jericho to Ramallah. And make the security zone along the Jordan border temporary. Israel keeps a corridor into Hebron, though. To protect her holy places there.

 

[aris2chat]

Israel has nothing to do with not allowing repairs of new construction. NGOs have no trouble getting cement, just the private sectors,because hamas is stealing it.
Hamas is preventing work.

Hamas is in control in gaza
Tunnels are more important than sewage to them
Companies have built modern housing complexes, so why should german money be diverted to everything except what is was indented for

and is it any wonder no one want to give them more money?

maybe the gazan people should protest till hamas repairs the sewage plant so it functions properly.
Many be the fishermen should force hamas to stop polluting the waters

Don't blame Israel for the intentional failings of hamas.

This is what I mean by lies not helping the Palestinians or a cause for statehood. Face the facts if you want something done, not blame everyone and anything else, it wastes times and makes it harder to find resolutions.

What next are you going to post that is not factual or blame Israel for?
Supplies go in and out, so do people. Israel and other countries have tried and are still making offers to help. If it does not get done in gaza, tell hamas about it.

Everytime the sewage plant gets up and running, hamas pulls the plug. If it does n't get repaired, hamas has take the cement and equiptment. If Israel offers to power the plant, hamas fires rockets or kills Israelis.

Gazans are the victims of hamas.

 

[aris2chat]

How about this map?

Green = Palestine. But join Jericho to Ramallah. And make the security zone along the Jordan border temporary. Israel keeps a corridor into Hebron, though. To protect her holy places there.

and an equal trade of land will no doubt be involved in any settlement of peace.

 

[anotherlife]

I can't imagine though how any border can be clearly defined in that region, because all the villages and settlements are mixed.

Here's a crazy idea: How about we let some Arab Israelis live in Israel. And we let some Jews live in Palestine. If they want to.

Yes, but in this case, what safeguards can be invented that they will not suffer institutional discrimination or adverse public sentiment against their business on the opponent's territory?

How about the same safeguards in place for all the other nations in the world?

Very few other nations have this. Britain is one of the few, and even that one is still figuring it under the word devolution. I think this is totally new, and needs to be invented for the first time, including all of its guarantee structures and checks and balances.

 

[Shusha]

Very few other nations have this.

So why should Jordan, Palestine, Israel and Gaza be different? As a condition of ending the conflict and signing a peace treaty?

 

[aris2chat]

I can't imagine though how any border can be clearly defined in that region, because all the villages and settlements are mixed.

Here's a crazy idea: How about we let some Arab Israelis live in Israel. And we let some Jews live in Palestine. If they want to.

Yes, but in this case, what safeguards can be invented that they will not suffer institutional discrimination or adverse public sentiment against their business on the opponent's territory?

Jobs, taxes ad profits.

Perhaps they should agree than for each business that fails due to discrimination, hate or terrorism, a business in the other land must close and leave.

quid pro quo

 

[anotherlife]

How about this map?

Green = Palestine. But join Jericho to Ramallah. And make the security zone along the Jordan border temporary. Israel keeps a corridor into Hebron, though. To protect her holy places there.

VERY interesting map. Also, how do I calculate the 4 states in it? Do I guess that what you are describing with it would make the 4 states like
-- gaza, Arabic,
-- south Israel with Hebron, Jewish,
-- West Bank with Jordan river and Dead Sea shores, Arabic,
-- and north Israel with west Ramallah, Jewish?

 

[anotherlife]

Very few other nations have this.

So why should Jordan, Palestine, Israel and Gaza be different? As a condition of ending the conflict and signing a peace treaty?

I think the difference is, that the other nations are not in an outright way with their neighbors about this, although not far from it. The Middle East is.

 

[aris2chat]

Yesterday, there were 986 crossings of foreigners, merchants and others
There were 4 crossings of ambulances between Gaza and Israel
658 trucks of goods entered Gaza


Figures are posted daily

Exports are posted weekly and monthly

Ignorance and lies are the real crime

 

[anotherlife]

I can't imagine though how any border can be clearly defined in that region, because all the villages and settlements are mixed.

Here's a crazy idea: How about we let some Arab Israelis live in Israel. And we let some Jews live in Palestine. If they want to.

Yes, but in this case, what safeguards can be invented that they will not suffer institutional discrimination or adverse public sentiment against their business on the opponent's territory?

Jobs, taxes ad profits.

Perhaps they should agree than for each business that fails due to discrimination, hate or terrorism, a business in the other land must close and leave.

quid pro quo

Yep, I think this is current, they call it the war.

 

[anotherlife]

Yesterday, there were 986 crossings of foreigners, merchants and others
There were 4 crossings of ambulances between Gaza and Israel
658 trucks of goods entered Gaza


Figures are posted daily

Exports are posted weekly and monthly

Ignorance and lies are the real crime

Now then if they just could stop being fat in gaza.