Kill the innocent, but not the guilty?

[Abbey Normal]

Isn't that what I just said? Copycat.

I'm just amplifying your astuteness. :cof:

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Birth control and common sense are a HELL of a lot cheaper than the cost of an abortion. How much more simple does it need to be made before you'll understand it?

Well, an abortion is a HELL of a lot cheaper than raising a kid. I'll give you the facts that abortion is ugly, it's gross, the fetuses are innocent, and the parents weren't always responsible. But the fact remains that people want to have this option available to them and they should. It's a personal decision to start a family, not the government's and not the people's.

 

[Gunny]

Well, an abortion is a HELL of a lot cheaper than raising a kid. I'll give you the facts that abortion is ugly, it's gross, the fetuses are innocent, and the parents weren't always responsible. But the fact remains that people want to have this option available to them and they should. It's a personal decision to start a family, not the government's and not the people's.

Incorrect. Morality is decided by the society in which one lives.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Well, an abortion is a HELL of a lot cheaper than raising a kid. I'll give you the facts that abortion is ugly, it's gross, the fetuses are innocent, and the parents weren't always responsible. But the fact remains that people want to have this option available to them and they should. It's a personal decision to start a family, not the government's and not the people's.

I want the option to kill my neighbor whose property is not kept up well, and whose teenaged son drives too fast and plays loud music. I can't sleep at night, I am depressed, and I can't afford to move away. Can I have this option available to me? And so what if I moved in knowing that this would all be going on. Now that the excitement of moving in to a new house has "climaxed", and the crappy reality of the situation has sunk in, I just don't want to live this way.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Are you an atheist? If so, then you must know that abortion is even worse if you're right. Now you are taking a life and snuffing it out forever....... and ever. No soul, according to your worldview, to come back. Potential destroyed utterly with no hope of being restored.

Either way.......... You lose.

I'm not a total atheist. I struggle and I haven't talked to God in a long time. But if what we believe about God is true, then the souls of babies and children go straight to heaven anyway. Sin is a personal thing, not a societal one. Atleast in the New Testament it is. Plus God gave us free will and under our laws, abortion is a legal option. So, like I said before. Abortion is a personal decision made by a woman (and sometimes a man) and is between her, her doctor, and God. Nobody else has any right to weigh in on the decision she makes about her baby.

 

[Abbey Normal]

I'm not a total atheist. I struggle and I haven't talked to God in a long time. But if what we believe about God is true, then the souls of babies and children go straight to heaven anyway. Sin is a personal thing, not a societal one. Atleast in the New Testament it is. Plus God gave us free will and under our laws, abortion is a legal option. So, like I said before. Abortion is a personal decision made by a woman (and sometimes a man) and is between her, her doctor, and God. Nobody else has any right to weigh in on the decision she makes about her baby.

Haggy, do you think because something is legal, thatmakes it right morally?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

I want the option to kill my neighbor whose property is not kept up well, and whose teenaged son drives too fast and plays loud music. I can't sleep at night, I am depressed, and I can't afford to move away. Can I have this option available to me? And so what if I moved in knowing that this would all be going on. Now that the excitement of moving in to a new house has "climaxed", and the crappy reality of the situation has sunk in, I just don't want to live this way.

You and I both know this is a ridiculous comparison. A baby's life, its conception, is something that is created by its parents. Until it is born, it is, in many ways still a concept. It hasn't lived. Nobody knows it. They created it, so they have the option to abort it. A baby isn't some miraculous gift bestowed upon all mankind. So all mankind isn't privy to make a decision affecting its future.

 

[manu1959]

You and I both know this is a ridiculous comparison. A baby's life, its conception, is something that is created by its parents. Until it is born, it is, in many ways still a concept. It hasn't lived. Nobody knows it. They created it, so they have the option to abort it. A baby isn't some miraculous gift bestowed upon all mankind. So all mankind isn't privy to make a decision affecting its future.

true if you don't belive in god....

my life isn't some miraculous gift bestowed upon all mankind. So all mankind isn't privy to make a decision affecting my future.

so may i legally kill myself?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Haggy, do you think because something is legal, thatmakes it right morally?

No. I made the distinction about how I feel about abortion personally and how I view abortion societally very clear. The issue here is that in a free society, where the government cannot directly interfere with the personal decisions people make affecting their lives, the right to have an abortion is not something the government can take away. That choice has to be left open for those who want it.

 

[Abbey Normal]

You and I both know this is a ridiculous comparison. A baby's life, its conception, is something that is created by its parents. Until it is born, it is, in many ways still a concept. It hasn't lived. Nobody knows it. They created it, so they have the option to abort it. A baby isn't some miraculous gift bestowed upon all mankind. So all mankind isn't privy to make a decision affecting its future.

It is only a "ridiculous conparison" becasue it does not suit your liberal "whatever is good for me" philosophy. To me, and to many, many people, that "concept" you so cavalierly speak of, is a human being, with rights and feeling. To follow your silly argument "They created it, so they have the option to abort it", to it's natural conclusion, I could kill our teenager because she is too expensive for us right now. I mean, after all, we created her.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

so may i legally kill myself?

Well, suicide is illegal only because the government has to pay to send a coroner to pick your ass up. But I don't know how they get the citation to you if that's what you're asking.

 

[manu1959]

Haggy, do you think because something is legal, thatmakes it right morally?

conversly if it is illegal is it morally incorrect?

see gay marrige in san franciso.....voters say it is not legal.....proponents say it is moraly wrong to prevent them from the basic civil right of a family...

 

[archangel]

conversly if it is illegal is it morally incorrect?

see gay marrige in san franciso.....voters say it is not legal.....proponents say it is moraly wrong to prevent them from the basic civil right of a family...

Arnold the "Terminator" said hey eat this veto! :2guns:

 

[manu1959]

Well, suicide is illegal only because the government has to pay to send a coroner to pick your ass up. But I don't know how they get the citation to you if that's what you're asking.

i doubt that is the reason.....you implied that the govt should not stick their nose into abortion....i was linking the basis of that argument into suicide...

personally i think you are more than welcome to kill your unborn, kill yourself, kill you friends and family or be killed......all are morally wrong.....all are choices....all have consequenses.

 

[Abbey Normal]

conversly if it is illegal is it morally incorrect?

see gay marrige in san franciso.....voters say it is not legal.....proponents say it is moraly wrong to prevent them from the basic civil right of a family...

Generally speaking, laws, and lawmakers, can be wrong. Throughout history it has been so. Precisely why we need a moral compass that is not of this world.

 

[manu1959]

Arnold the "Terminator" said hey eat this veto! :2guns:

a classic republican response......

 

[archangel]

a classic republican response......

LOL...I by no means am a Republican or Demo for that matter...a registered ultra conservative "American Independent"...on the horizon to right the wrongs of both parties! Both are way to liberal for me! :firing:

 

[manu1959]

LOL...I by no means am a Republican or Demo for that matter...a registered ultra conservative "American Independent"...on the horizon to right the wrongs of both parties! Both are way to liberal for me! :firing:

i understand.....my dad's family are long time reno and carson valley folks....great grand parents lived in an olde stone shack out by carson city.....i am considered a left wing radical by thier standards

 

[Nuc]

LOL...I by no means am a Republican or Demo for that matter...a registered ultra conservative "American Independent"...on the horizon to right the wrongs of both parties! Both are way to liberal for me! :firing:

C'mon arch, your bark is worse than your bite. You're almost a liberal softie at heart!

 

[Hagbard Celine]

It is only a "ridiculous conparison" becasue it does not suit your liberal "whatever is good for me" philosophy. To me, and to many, many people, that "concept" you so cavalierly speak of, is a human being, with rights and feeling. To follow your silly argument "They created it, so they have the option to abort it", to it's natural conclusion, I could kill our teenager because she is too expensive for us right now. I mean, after all, we created her.

Well, the question is what right do you have to make assumptions about another person's kid? Some might want you to have an opinion on their kid, but many, many people would not. I knew somebody was going to pose the hypothetical "why don't I just kill my daughter because she inconveniences me?" But I can retort with an argument that pro-lifers usually use.

In car accidents where a pregnant woman's fetus is killed, the offending driver is charged with infanticide. Well, you might be asking yourself "Self, why is it considered "infanticide" in car accidents, but not in abortions?" The difference is that aborted fetuses are unwanted by the parents, i.e. the people who created the fetus do not want it. But a woman carrying a baby would usually only be carrying because she wanted the baby. If a third party, outside of the fetus' creators kills the fetus, it's infanticide because that third party had no right to determine the fetus' future. Do you see the distinction?

Now when you look at the issue like this, you can see that society over-all views fetus' rights individually depending on how its parents do. Society agrees for the most part that when you are born, you become a genuine member of the human race and you become a citizen of whichever country you were born into. So your "kill my daughter" argument doesn't fly because killing her would just be plain murder because she has already been born. A fetus' right to life is dependent on what its parents feel and cannot be dictated by any third party because only the creators have the right to make a decision regarding its future.