New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

[RoccoR]

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews
※→ Mindful, et al,

Of course, we all know that this was misinformation in the time frame of the Arab-Israeli Suez War (1956) and later in the shadow of the Yom Kipper War (1973) (which should have wrapped-up all the various Arab Palestinian disputes, but didn't).

Ahmed Shukairy had no hesitation, as current head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, in announcing to the UN Security Council the observation, “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria” on May 31, 1956.

On March 8, 1974, Syrian President Hafez Assad told PLO leader Yasser Arafat: “You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian People, there is no Palestinian entity; there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people. Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people. Palestine is a principal part of Southern Syria, and we consider that it is our right and duty to insist that it be a liberated partner of our Arab homeland and of Syria.”

Even a member of the PLO Executive Council admitted that the Palestinians were nothing more than “just Arabs”:

(COMMENT)

The descriptions used today, which the Arab Palestinians have chosen to label themselves, are morale boosters for → a segment of a population that wants what others have; but, botched every attempt to seize the day.

And it makes little difference about what apparition of leadership they have chosen for themselves, it is really a figment of their imagination. There entire framework of the Arab Palestinians is totally dysfunctional.

I cannot speak for the Israeli People, but I don't think it is so much an anti-Arab sentiment that is building; but, Israeli frustration with the Arab Palestinians and their bloodthirsty characteristics.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Dogmaphobe]

That's neither confusing nor scientifically sloppy. It just says that both religious bigotry and zionist zeal go along well with racism. As these two groups overlap - folks can be religious zealots and Zionists at the same time, you know? - you can add up the figures if you so wish. Folks with some, any background in statistics would much rather not.

You don't even know what the term Zionism means. Like most antisemites, you infuse the term with some sort of inherent wickedness and substitute it for the word Jew.

Except for a few nut jobs like the Neturei karta, ALL Jewish people in Israel are Zionist since the term merely means supportive of Jewish self determination. Zionism is the term given to the movement that gave Jewish people their right to such in their ancestral home -- the same right afforded the Italians, Germans, Japanese or any other coherent culture.

You and the others here hate Jews, so you measure them with a different Yard stick than you do any other people. There is NOTHING wrong with self determination, even if you haters of Jews single them out by insinuating their desire for such is uniquely perfidious.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

That's neither confusing nor scientifically sloppy. It just says that both religious bigotry and zionist zeal go along well with racism. As these two groups overlap - folks can be religious zealots and Zionists at the same time, you know? - you can add up the figures if you so wish. Folks with some, any background in statistics would much rather not.

You don't even know what the term Zionism means. Like most antisemites, you infuse the term with some sort of inherent wickedness and substitute it for the word Jew.

Except for a few nut jobs like the Neturei karta, ALL Jewish people in Israel are Zionist since the term merely means supportive of Jewish self determination. Zionism is the term given to the movement that gave Jewish people their right to such in their ancestral home -- the same right afforded the Italians, Germans, Japanese or any other coherent culture.

You and the others here hate Jews, so you measure them with a different Yard stick than you do any other people. There is NOTHING wrong with self determination, even if you haters of Jews single them out by insinuating their desire for such is uniquely perfidious.

Zionist is the PC respectable term used for the J word.

The word anti Semites hide behind, in order to be seen as morally correct people.

When we know what they really mean.

But don't you know, Mindful, that those "Zionists" are sneaky, conniving, manipulative, have undue influence, always have ulterior motives and all my little peeps tell me I'm righteous for saying that as long as I don't slip up and say "Jew"

 

[Mindful]

That's neither confusing nor scientifically sloppy. It just says that both religious bigotry and zionist zeal go along well with racism. As these two groups overlap - folks can be religious zealots and Zionists at the same time, you know? - you can add up the figures if you so wish. Folks with some, any background in statistics would much rather not.

You don't even know what the term Zionism means. Like most antisemites, you infuse the term with some sort of inherent wickedness and substitute it for the word Jew.

Except for a few nut jobs like the Neturei karta, ALL Jewish people in Israel are Zionist since the term merely means supportive of Jewish self determination. Zionism is the term given to the movement that gave Jewish people their right to such in their ancestral home -- the same right afforded the Italians, Germans, Japanese or any other coherent culture.

You and the others here hate Jews, so you measure them with a different Yard stick than you do any other people. There is NOTHING wrong with self determination, even if you haters of Jews single them out by insinuating their desire for such is uniquely perfidious.

Zionist is the PC respectable term used for the J word.

The word anti Semites hide behind, in order to be seen as morally correct people.

When we know what they really mean.

But don't you know, Mindful, that those "Zionists" are sneaky, conniving, manipulative, have undue influence and always have ulterior motives and all my little peeps tell me I'm righteous for saying that as long as I don't slip up and say "Jew"

I'm a Jew. There; I've said it.

God save the Queen.

 

[Coyote]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

 

[Mindful]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

 

[Coyote]

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews
※→ Mindful, et al,

Of course, we all know that this was misinformation in the time frame of the Arab-Israeli Suez War (1956) and later in the shadow of the Yom Kipper War (1973) (which should have wrapped-up all the various Arab Palestinian disputes, but didn't).

Ahmed Shukairy had no hesitation, as current head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, in announcing to the UN Security Council the observation, “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria” on May 31, 1956.

On March 8, 1974, Syrian President Hafez Assad told PLO leader Yasser Arafat: “You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian People, there is no Palestinian entity; there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people. Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people. Palestine is a principal part of Southern Syria, and we consider that it is our right and duty to insist that it be a liberated partner of our Arab homeland and of Syria.”

Even a member of the PLO Executive Council admitted that the Palestinians were nothing more than “just Arabs”:

(COMMENT)

The descriptions used today, which the Arab Palestinians have chosen to label themselves, are morale boosters for → a segment of a population that wants what others have; but, botched every attempt to seize the day.

And it makes little difference about what apparition of leadership they have chosen for themselves, it is really a figment of their imagination. There entire framework of the Arab Palestinians is totally dysfunctional.

I cannot speak for the Israeli People, but I don't think it is so much an anti-Arab sentiment that is building; but, Israeli frustration with the Arab Palestinians and their bloodthirsty characteristics.

Most Respectfully,
R

I disagree...the attitudes are not new and are not distributed across all the Jewish groups. They are strongest with the most religious who are also among those most supportive of settling the entire area and in other polls support fewer rights for non Jewish citizens. And they carry a powerful political and social voice despite being a minority.

 

[Coyote]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

 

[Olde Europe]

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

I think, you're looking at that the wrong way: We are not just allowed to talk about racism in general, and the habit of Othering in particular, some feel the need to add even more, and very concrete, evidence to the poll's findings. And so they do.

As an aside - "antisemitisme" - are you a native French speaker? (No need to answer that.)

 

[Coyote]

This thread is merely an attempt to minimize anti-semitism and reduce it to the same sort of discrimination and othering that is common everywhere in the world and in all societies. It is not anti-semitism has unique features and a unique ability to pass from culture to culture and exist through millennia.

There is no equivalence in the relationship between Europeans and their Jews, which has been absent any sort of conflict or animosity for centuries and the relationship between Jews and their Arab neighbors which is defined by the conflict. The former is an unreasonable hatred and hostility; the latter is a response to a very real threat.

And of course it has to do with the conflict. Don't be ridiculous. You can't just remove the conflict from the game and pretend it doesn't influence people. Once you've heard comments like, "rip the hearts out of the apes and pigs Jews", you just can't unhear them. Not through the lens of thousands of years of persecution and genocide.

Oh brother. So in other words Jews are incapable of bigotry and stand far above the other groups who relentlessly hate, persecute, discriminate against others? I had no idea they incapable of such attitudes. Clearly the poll got it all wrong and these bigotries are entirely do to conflict and not the cultural attitudes that afflict other human groups. (Sarcasm alert).

Othering is othering. The only difference is that as a minority, the Jewish people have not had any power to act on it like other cultures except in Israel. Now this again is where it seems like we get into the appearance of Israel can do no wrong, the Jewish people can do no wrong, and to say otherwise, such as to talk about anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry in Israel, turns into accusations of anti-semitism for discussing it.

Could you be any more disingenuous?

Step 1. You try to make equivalent anti-semitism with ALL "othering", as though the Jewish experience in the world is normal to all cultures.

Step 2. I reply that anti-semtism is unique. That it is millennia old. That is transfers from culture to culture and over time. That the Jewish people can not help but view the world through the lens of thousands of years of persecution, pogroms, oppression and both cultural and literal genocide. And through the lens of the complex on-going conflict.

Step 3. You claim I am saying that the Jews can do no wrong.


That is not at ALL what I said. And if you can't see the difference between what I actually said, and "Jews can do no wrong" you are no better than Penny, no matter how sophisticated your arguments appear.

Honestly Shusha it is hard for me to tell what you mean. It seems from my perspective, that Israel can do no wrong. It seems to me you used to take a much more balanced approach to these discussions that is harder to see now. Israeli Jews are no more or less biased or bigoted or discriminating then other groups but discussing that and it's effect on its Arab citizens or the Palestinians immediately causes an innediate reaction that puts them on a "how dare you crticize" pedistal.

 

[Coyote]

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

I think, you're looking at that the wrong way: We are not just allowed to talk about racism in general, and the habit of Othering in particular, some feel the need to add even more, and very concrete, evidence to the poll's findings. And so they do.

As an aside - "antisemitisme" - are you a native French speaker? (No need to answer that.)

no...that is my typo though ironically I did spend part of my childhood in France.

You make a good point.

 

[Shusha]

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimination. And of course we are allowed to talk about it. We HAVE talked about it, you and I. And I'd be glad to do so again.

BUT let's NOT talk about it in the context of European anti-semitism and the Shoah (Post#1). That is just minimizing the virulent, toxic, unreasonable hatred the Jewish people experience.

 

[Shusha]

It seems from my perspective, that Israel can do no wrong. It seems to me you used to take a much more balanced approach to these discussions that is harder to see now.

Yes, but realize that it is YOUR perspective. Its coming from you. Its not actually coming from us. Its not actually coming from Team Israel, nor from the Jews on this board. We are constantly saying that we have criticisms of Israel. We would all LOVE to discuss them. We would also LOVE to discuss real solutions. (At least the prolific writers on this board would, I think.) But for the most part, we are too busy countering arguments like, "Jews are not protected persons, therefore, its okay to kill them."

And yes, I used to be softer in my approach. I am horribly naive and when I first came to USMB I took everyone at face value. Now, I've had several years to discuss subjects with everyone and I am more aware of the underlying current of anti-semitism inherent in nearly every one of the posters here. I call it out when I see it.

Israeli Jews are no more or less biased or bigoted or discriminating then other groups but discussing that and it's effect on its Arab citizens or the Palestinians immediately causes an innediate reaction that puts them on a "how dare you crticize" pedistal.

But this thread isn't about the impact of discrimination on Israel's Arab citizens. Its about comparing hatred OF Jews to hatred BY Jews. That's where we have to call you out.

 

[Penelope]

That's neither confusing nor scientifically sloppy. It just says that both religious bigotry and zionist zeal go along well with racism. As these two groups overlap - folks can be religious zealots and Zionists at the same time, you know? - you can add up the figures if you so wish. Folks with some, any background in statistics would much rather not.

You don't even know what the term Zionism means. Like most antisemites, you infuse the term with some sort of inherent wickedness and substitute it for the word Jew.

Except for a few nut jobs like the Neturei karta, ALL Jewish people in Israel are Zionist since the term merely means supportive of Jewish self determination. Zionism is the term given to the movement that gave Jewish people their right to such in their ancestral home -- the same right afforded the Italians, Germans, Japanese or any other coherent culture.

You and the others here hate Jews, so you measure them with a different Yard stick than you do any other people. There is NOTHING wrong with self determination, even if you haters of Jews single them out by insinuating their desire for such is uniquely perfidious.

Zionist is the PC respectable term used for the J word.

The word anti Semites hide behind, in order to be seen as morally correct people.

When we know what they really mean.

But don't you know, Mindful, that those "Zionists" are sneaky, conniving, manipulative, have undue influence and always have ulterior motives and all my little peeps tell me I'm righteous for saying that as long as I don't slip up and say "Jew"

I'm a Jew. There; I've said it.

God save the Queen.

I always knew it.

 

[Penelope]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Out of 9 million or less, what does Israel do with the 3.8 billion we give them a year? How about all the rich Jews in the US that send money to Israel and fund this or that? Take the 2 million in Gaza and most of them must go hungry. What does Israel do with the money??

 

[Mindful]

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimination. And of course we are allowed to talk about it. We HAVE talked about it, you and I. And I'd be glad to do so again.

BUT let's NOT talk about it in the context of European anti-semitism and the Shoah (Post#1). That is just minimizing the virulent, toxic, unreasonable hatred the Jewish people experience.

And that's the point. The context in which Israel is discussed.

 

[Mindful]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Out of 9 million or less, what does Israel do with the 3.8 billion we give them a year? How about all the rich Jews in American that send money to Israel and fund this or that? Take the 2 million in Gaza and most of them must go hungry. What does Israel do with the money??

You don't give them anything.

They're called loan guarantees.

 

[Mindful]

That's neither confusing nor scientifically sloppy. It just says that both religious bigotry and zionist zeal go along well with racism. As these two groups overlap - folks can be religious zealots and Zionists at the same time, you know? - you can add up the figures if you so wish. Folks with some, any background in statistics would much rather not.

You don't even know what the term Zionism means. Like most antisemites, you infuse the term with some sort of inherent wickedness and substitute it for the word Jew.

Except for a few nut jobs like the Neturei karta, ALL Jewish people in Israel are Zionist since the term merely means supportive of Jewish self determination. Zionism is the term given to the movement that gave Jewish people their right to such in their ancestral home -- the same right afforded the Italians, Germans, Japanese or any other coherent culture.

You and the others here hate Jews, so you measure them with a different Yard stick than you do any other people. There is NOTHING wrong with self determination, even if you haters of Jews single them out by insinuating their desire for such is uniquely perfidious.

Zionist is the PC respectable term used for the J word.

The word anti Semites hide behind, in order to be seen as morally correct people.

When we know what they really mean.

But don't you know, Mindful, that those "Zionists" are sneaky, conniving, manipulative, have undue influence and always have ulterior motives and all my little peeps tell me I'm righteous for saying that as long as I don't slip up and say "Jew"

I'm a Jew. There; I've said it.

God save the Queen.

I always knew it.

Off topic

 

[Olde Europe]

Out of 9 million or less, what does Israel do with the 3.8 billion we give them a year?

You ask as if that were a secret. It's overwhelmingly an export subsidy for American, mass-murderous war-making toys.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Very interesting article, the poll was done to parallel another poll done on anti-semitism in Europe. Interestingly, but not unsurprising (as it is similar in many societies) the more secular, the more tolerant.

New poll shows strong anti-Arab sentiment among Israeli Jews

Channel 10 said they commission the poll from the IDI to “examine how racism, which underpins anti-Semitism, is being expressed by the Jewish Israeli public.

Th TV station said it recycled some of the questions asked in the CNN poll to uncover the Jewish attitudes of living with “the other.”

Channel 10 noted that one of the main topics in the CNN survey concerned the Holocaust, saying that it’s generally assumed that studying the genocide of European Jewry makes a person aware of consequences of racism and are less likely to be anti-Semitism. So in its poll, the TV station said it wanted to learn “what do the Jews, who demand world remember the Holocaust, know about the annihilation of other peoples?”

The results showed that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews — between 70-80% — said they knew “very little” or “nothing at all” about the Armenian, Cambodian or Rwandan genocides.

My 1st reaction to this Jerusalem Post poll was "they should know better than to present statistics that don't explain the significance". My 2nd reaction was -- "well their audience is LARGELY Israeli who KNOW the context of those numbers"..

On my "favorites" book shelf behind me is small paperback that was assigned to me in a Statistics class. It's called "How to LIE with Statistics". Only book I've ever read cover to cover three times. Because it outlines how you can paint a rembrandt or a warhol from the same painting pallet of raw numbers.

Here's the problem...

See the 2 darkest slices of Jews in Israel by "orthodoxy"?? That 22% is your "ultra orthodox". The 78% is the REST of Israeli Jewish population. Keep in mind that 13% of the CITIZENS of Israel are Muslim. And about 8% (IIRC) are various Christian denominations. So those 2 NON-JEWISH factions are ALMOST as large as the "ultra-orthodox" Jewish faction. Furthermore, 33% of ALL the ultra orthodox live in Jerusalem, where the Post is based.

So grouping the results in this poll by orthodoxy are NOT percentage of Israelis who harbor ANY bias towards Arabs. To get to THAT conclusion, you'd have to "normalize" the results as given to the SIZE of those religious denominations in Israel..

For instance, from your article --

“Most Jews are better than most non-Jews because they were born Jews.”

Among the 52% who said the statement was “totally true” or “pretty true,” 66% identified as ultra-Orthodox, 45% identified as religious Zionists and 13% as identified as traditionally observant. In stark contrast, only 7.1% of Israelis who identified as secular said they supported the statement.

This is a very confusing and scientifically sloppy statement. Because the percentages given add to 131%. So there's something "not kosher" with that statement. Largely it's because it's not a strict classification by RELIGIOUS affiliation. They mixed religious affiliation with "Zionist zeal". And there are plenty of "near secular Jews" with Zionist tendencies.

But even after tossing out the class that doesn't match the others (Zionism) -- That 66% of ultra orthodox being only 20% (or so) of the Israeli population represents only 13% of all Israeli Jews. That's a different story entirely -- aint it?

That's not even about Arab bias actually. It's just a statement about the cultural comparisons of the better life that exists in a relatively free and tolerant Israel -- versus the general Arab state of affairs in the Mid East. Israel is a place where you can have a Gay parade and not be mowed down in the streets. Or HAVE "the other" represented in your Congress.


Then there's a bunch of "weak" statements that appear to be racist indictments.

Seventy-four percent of respondents said they get at least a little disturbed by hearing conversation in Arabic in public.

Another 88% of respondents said they would be disturbed to some degree if their son were to befriend an Arab girl. The number climbed to 90% when respondents were asked about their daughter befriending an Arab boy.

"a little disturbed"??? "disturbed to some degree"?? These are not foaming at the mouth hatred of any one. And you would get HIGHER numbers in Paris from Parisians who hear folks not speaking French. And they would be GREATLY disturbed. Or in America those numbers about "befriending an Arab" would probably be similar --- wouldn't they?

That's because polls are only as good as the questions they ask. And the RESULTS are generally culled to "write a predefined story"... For instance -- that question about your kid "befriending an Arab" COULD HAVE BEEN asked by asking ---

If you're son was to befriend an Arab girl -- would you be ____ ???

1) Not disturbed at all
2) A little disturbed
3) Moderately disturbed
4) Greatly disturbed.

Right from the book on "how to lie with statistics" -- this is an example of only presenting a highly biased "cut-off" point for the analysis. By just excluding the folks on the measurement scale who are "not disturbed at all", you've biased the analysis. It doesn't really measure much at all. Does it? It bundles everyone with even a TWINGE of bias with folks who have serious Arab bias issues.

Using those 4 answer choices I gave, and making the cut-off point at "Moderately Disturbed or greater" -- would have represented a MUCH BETTER and mathematically sound measure of Israeli bias against Arabs. MAYBE they polled BOTH ways. And when they did not get the story they wanted. They backed off to asking ONLY if they would be " a little disturbed" or MORE. I'm a little disturbed when my daughter dates a raging snowflake. No Actually -- I'm "greatly disturbed"..

Sorry for the lecture. But the public is preyed on constantly with statistics and polls. And it angers me when the analysis they WRITE is not true to the data or maliciously manipulated. THINK when they toss the basket of numbers at you. Just don't resort to conclusions without at least asking some questions of how the "results" are presented.

And ESPECIALLY -- question the questions. Because the way they are phrased are OFTEN USED to ACHIEVE some preconceived notion for a story line.

Thanks for the breakdown and analysis, that is helpful, certainly more so than aything else that was contributed! I do think though, based not on just this but on other polls and articles from Israeli sources, not Palestinian, that Israel has problems with anti-Arab discrimination and bigotry and it seems taboo to talk about without ending up under a shit pile of antisemite accusations on rhe one the one hand and gleeful trolling from the resident antisemites on the other.

Is Israel a better place place to live than surrouding countries? Absolutely. So is the US, but that doesnt mean we dont have signicant problens with equality, justice, and bigotry to address. And we do...vociferously...we dont shut it down. We talk about the antisemitisme that is endemic among Muslims but talking about discrimination and bigotry from Israel's Jewish population is taboo. We all humans first and foremost and a suspect attitude Otherness is hardwired in our species and especially conservative cultures which covers many muslim cultures and the more conservative Jewish and Christian sects.

Israel does have a problem with inequality and discrimmination. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

Of course you are:

1.8 million Israelis, 842,000 of them children, under poverty line — report

Oh right...we can talk abiut as long as it doesnt involve specific demographic groups.

Youand those who share your ethic hatred have been talking about it with complete freedom here.




Once again, when a large majority harbors genocidal attitudes towards a small minority,it is an incredibly hateful act to claim it is the minority at fault when only a fraction of them hold prejudicial view in return and don't even come CLOSE to the same level of hatred.

The Arabs who call themselves Palestinians for the purpose of propaganda elected those who promise the genocide of Jews in their very charter, yet you and the other antisemies here look right past that in order to focus your hatred on Jews.


onl

.