Physics and why LWIR can not warm oceans... Info for a Clueless Senator Markey and alarmists..

[Wuwei]

Second, pure water was used in the experiment. Sea water is not pure and has minerals along with living organisms which do not allow penetration of the oceans by wave lengths above 10um. This means that it is a poor absorber as well as emitter.

Here is a further note on emissivity of the ocean. This is from table 1 in the following reference:
http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/JO/pdf/5001/50010017.pdf
Note that the emissivitys of the ocean are much closer to black body radiation than pure water.

0.993 Buettner and Kern (1965) not considering the skin layer
0.986 Saunders (1967b, 1968) observation of the reflectance from the air plane
0.9875 Mikhaylov and Zolotarev (1970) calculation from the optical constant
0.992 (11 µm) Masuda et al. (1988) calculation of the reflectance using the numerical model surface
0.972 Davies et al. (1971) observation of sheltered water surface from the sky

 

[SSDD]

Have you noticed that everyone who argues against you on radiative transfer says the same thing while NO ONE agrees with your contentions? Have you noticed that several of us have taken and passed courses in thermodynamics while you, quite obviously, have not? Doesn't that make you think that perhaps we're right and you're wrong?

I have noticed over and over that you can't read a basic graph and make sense of it....the idea that you have passed any sort of science course is a bit funny and the claim that you are an engineer of any sort is absolutely laughable...if you are, then you are the worst engineer that ever lived and no one in their right mind should ever listen to you. Another thing that I have noticed is that none of you believers can provide a single bit of observed, measured evidence of back radiation...nothing whatsoever that is not the product of a mathematical model.

The greenhouse effect operates precisely as described. Human GHG emissions enabling that effect are warming the planet and represent a significant threat to us and our descendants.

And yet, the climate models which are based upon that greenhouse effect have achieved nothing short of epic failure. Don't guess you ever wonder why.

 

[Crick]

The models have done quite well. You need to stop basing your opinion on Spencer and Christy's lies.

The angst I suffer from you telling me I'm a bad engineer is closely akin to the effect I'd suffer receiving the same message from a three year old. Well, actually, less.

 

[Old Rocks]

Anyone arguing for smart photons has some basic misconceptions in physics.

 

[jc456]

Have you noticed that everyone who argues against you on radiative transfer says the same thing while NO ONE agrees with your contentions? Have you noticed that several of us have taken and passed courses in thermodynamics while you, quite obviously, have not? Doesn't that make you think that perhaps we're right and you're wrong?

I'll bet it doesn't. Know why? Because I know you're just that stupid.

The greenhouse effect operates precisely as described. Human GHG emissions enabling that effect are warming the planet and represent a significant threat to us and our descendants.

The greenhouse effect operates precisely as described. Human GHG emissions enabling that effect are warming the planet and represent a significant threat to us and our descendants.

Prove it is dangerous. Ah, that's right, you can't. more blah, blah, blah sky is falling talk

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Have you noticed that everyone who argues against you on radiative transfer says the same thing while NO ONE agrees with your contentions? Have you noticed that several of us have taken and passed courses in thermodynamics while you, quite obviously, have not? Doesn't that make you think that perhaps we're right and you're wrong?

I'll bet it doesn't. Know why? Because I know you're just that stupid.

The greenhouse effect operates precisely as described. Human GHG emissions enabling that effect are warming the planet and represent a significant threat to us and our descendants.

And, of course, you can show us in a controlled lab setting how truly dangerous this CO2 is, correct?

You can show us the incremental temperature increase for every 10PPM from 280PPM to 400PPM, right?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Anyone arguing for smart photons has some basic misconceptions in physics.

They're smart enough to follow their laws

 

[Old Rocks]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

The AGWCult BELIEVES that heat radiates from cooler to warmer, it just has to!

 

[jc456]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

The AGWCult BELIEVES that heat radiates from cooler to warmer, it just has to!

hey Frank, it seems they believe in the smart photon.

 

[IanC]

Anyone arguing for smart photons has some basic misconceptions in physics.

They're smart enough to follow their laws

Exactly. That's why SSDDs claims are so ludicrous.

And the claims that there is no measured evidence for such things as 'back radiation' is foolish as well. Back radiation is simply radiation. Every substance above absolute zero gives off radiation, in all directions, because of kinetic molecular collisions.

Temperature is a function of energy input minus energy output. The surface receives 165W of solar energy. The temperature is 15C which means it gives off 400W. Where does the extra energy come from? The back radiation from the atmosphere.

Why is the atmosphere warm enough to return part of its energy to the surface? Solar input, both directly and indirectly from the surface. An atmosphere without GHGs would still be warmer than space and return some energy to the surface. With GHGs it is warmer still, and returns more, because some surface energy from radiation does not directly escape at the speed of light.

We can, and have, measured the radiation coming back from the atmosphere. It is significant and without it there would be no life here because it would be too cold.

The Greenhouse Effect is both real and necessary.


Fortunately the main GHG, water vapour, works as both a heater (absorbing radiation) and cooler (evaporation, convection, clouds and latent heat). The balance between these two functions is what has kept the Earth in the 'Goldilock's Zone' for billions of years.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Anyone arguing for smart photons has some basic misconceptions in physics.

They're smart enough to follow their laws

Exactly. That's why SSDDs claims are so ludicrous.

And the claims that there is no measured evidence for such things as 'back radiation' is foolish as well. Back radiation is simply radiation. Every substance above absolute zero gives off radiation, in all directions, because of kinetic molecular collisions.

Temperature is a function of energy input minus energy output. The surface receives 165W of solar energy. The temperature is 15C which means it gives off 400W. Where does the extra energy come from? The back radiation from the atmosphere.

Why is the atmosphere warm enough to return part of its energy to the surface? Solar input, both directly and indirectly from the surface. An atmosphere without GHGs would still be warmer than space and return some energy to the surface. With GHGs it is warmer still, and returns more, because some surface energy from radiation does not directly escape at the speed of light.

We can, and have, measured the radiation coming back from the atmosphere. It is significant and without it there would be no life here because it would be too cold.

The Greenhouse Effect is both real and necessary.


Fortunately the main GHG, water vapour, works as both a heater (absorbing radiation) and cooler (evaporation, convection, clouds and latent heat). The balance between these two functions is what has kept the Earth in the 'Goldilock's Zone' for billions of years.

Their laws have them "moving" from warmer to cooler

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

The AGWCult BELIEVES that heat radiates from cooler to warmer, it just has to!

hey Frank, it seems they believe in the smart photon.

How bad does it suck for the AGWCult there's there's actually MORE scientific evidence that the Moon may have a hollow core than there is that 120PPM increase in CO2 will kill all life on earth by baking us all to death?

 

[IanC]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

The AGWCult BELIEVES that heat radiates from cooler to warmer, it just has to!

Define your terms. Radiation transfers energy from one place to another, and is independent of temperature once it is formed. 'Heat' is a much more complicated entity and only travels from warm to cool. Radiation- all times, all directions. Heat (depending on how it is defined)- always from warm to cold.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

The AGWCult BELIEVES that heat radiates from cooler to warmer, it just has to!

Define your terms. Radiation transfers energy from one place to another, and is independent of temperature once it is formed. 'Heat' is a much more complicated entity and only travels from warm to cool. Radiation- all times, all directions. Heat (depending on how it is defined)- always from warm to cold.

Stuff besides heat can radiate from cool to warm...yeah, maybe. But heat, whatever it is, is one directional. Maybe it's like proton decay, cool to warm heat might happen one day, but so far not in 15 billion years

 

[Old Rocks]

Anyone arguing for smart photons has some basic misconceptions in physics.

They're smart enough to follow their laws

Exactly. That's why SSDDs claims are so ludicrous.

And the claims that there is no measured evidence for such things as 'back radiation' is foolish as well. Back radiation is simply radiation. Every substance above absolute zero gives off radiation, in all directions, because of kinetic molecular collisions.

Temperature is a function of energy input minus energy output. The surface receives 165W of solar energy. The temperature is 15C which means it gives off 400W. Where does the extra energy come from? The back radiation from the atmosphere.

Why is the atmosphere warm enough to return part of its energy to the surface? Solar input, both directly and indirectly from the surface. An atmosphere without GHGs would still be warmer than space and return some energy to the surface. With GHGs it is warmer still, and returns more, because some surface energy from radiation does not directly escape at the speed of light.

We can, and have, measured the radiation coming back from the atmosphere. It is significant and without it there would be no life here because it would be too cold.

The Greenhouse Effect is both real and necessary.


Fortunately the main GHG, water vapour, works as both a heater (absorbing radiation) and cooler (evaporation, convection, clouds and latent heat). The balance between these two functions is what has kept the Earth in the 'Goldilock's Zone' for billions of years.

Except there have been brief excursions that were very detrimental to life at the time. Snowball earth from too little GHGs in the atmosphere, the P-T extinction, and others, from too much GHGs in the atmosphere. And the present increase in GHGs is proceeding at a rate unmatched by any in the geological past according to paleo-climatologists. And we have many, many giga-ton of CH4 clathrates in our oceans. Probably won't come out. We sincerely hope.

 

[Old Rocks]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

The AGWCult BELIEVES that heat radiates from cooler to warmer, it just has to!

Define your terms. Radiation transfers energy from one place to another, and is independent of temperature once it is formed. 'Heat' is a much more complicated entity and only travels from warm to cool. Radiation- all times, all directions. Heat (depending on how it is defined)- always from warm to cold.

Stuff besides heat can radiate from cool to warm...yeah, maybe. But heat, whatever it is, is one directional. Maybe it's like proton decay, cool to warm heat might happen one day, but so far not in 15 billion years

LOL. SSDD owes you support for the hollow moon, now, Frankie Boy. Make him pay his debts.

 

[IanC]

Oh my, Frankie Boy has just added smart photons to his hollow moon. Hey, SSDD, are you going to reciprocate, and post something supporting the hollow moon nonsense?

The AGWCult BELIEVES that heat radiates from cooler to warmer, it just has to!

Define your terms. Radiation transfers energy from one place to another, and is independent of temperature once it is formed. 'Heat' is a much more complicated entity and only travels from warm to cool. Radiation- all times, all directions. Heat (depending on how it is defined)- always from warm to cold.

Stuff besides heat can radiate from cool to warm...yeah, maybe. But heat, whatever it is, is one directional. Maybe it's like proton decay, cool to warm heat might happen one day, but so far not in 15 billion years

Explain what you mean by heat and radiation. Do you even understand that they are different concepts? One is a complex function of a system with huge numbers of constituents, the other is a simple function of molecules shedding energy.

 

[SSDD]

The models have done quite well. You need to stop basing your opinion on Spencer and Christy's lies.

No Crick...they haven't...which is why the climate sensitivity to CO2 keeps being reduced...every reduction means that the models have been changed, yet again, in an attempt to more closely match reality...when they get to zero...then the real work of learning what drives climate can begin..

The angst I suffer from you telling me I'm a bad engineer is closely akin to the effect I'd suffer receiving the same message from a three year old. Well, actually, less.

You are no engineer....the fact that you can't read a graph...even a simple one and make sense of it telegraphs that fact loud and clear.

 

[SSDD]

Anyone arguing for smart photons has some basic misconceptions in physics.

Anyone who believes I have ever advanced the idea that photon are smart is an illiterate imbecile and anyone who states that I have ever advanced such an idea is a bald faced liar. You are guilty on both counts.