PIRATES DECLARE THEY INTEND TO RETALIATE! Oh my...

[garyd]

Wrong Islamic terrorism exists in it's current state because the whole freaking world doesn't operate under Sahria Law. You should read your Osama more carefully.

 

[dilloduck]

Wrong Islamic terrorism exists in it's current state because the whole freaking world doesn't operate under Sahria Law. You should read your Osama more carefully.

sshhhh we're after pirates now-------someone seems to have forgotten all about Osama. Are we not wasting money and manpower chasing people who haven't done anything to us ?

 

[garyd]

Nope.

 

[Gunny]

Good! We've got to keep the Navy occupied with this kind of target practice. I mean, the Air Force, Marines and Army were involved in Iraq and Afghanistan.. what did the Navy do? Nothing. 'Bout time we give the biggest, strongest and most bad-ass Navy in the world something to do before they decide to go blow up China or something.

Dude, the Navy is active in both theaters, mostly Iraq. Marines don't walk to Iraq. Navy and Marine air support doesn't come from land.

The Marines are part of the Navy and we're the part that does the grunt work. They operate the ships and provide our support. A grunt in the field is no more effective than the ability to support him.

And I'll take Navy and Marine pilots ANY day over any other. They get close enough to the ground to see us.

 

[dilloduck]

Nope.

some of the nicest people I know are pirates.

 

[Gunny]

This is not a seaborne operation folks. If we intend to fix it and not just stem the bleeding, it will require a land operation. You know that line in the Marine Hymm that goes "...to the shores of Tripoli... That was from the Barbary wars against the pirates. We'll have to go to Somalia and cut out the pirate's heart.

Yep. You're right. Look no further than Lord Palmerston, British Foreign Secretary in 1841 and one of the greatest advocates of gunboat diplomacy, for the right sort of advice.

Speaking in defence of a British naval officer who attacked the shore base of slavers, he said; "Taking a wasps' nest... is more effective than catching the wasps one by one,"

Denman had attacked and destroyed slave quarters on the West African coast and had been sued by the Spanish owners for damages.

Agreed. And we need to take it to them before they do capture another US flagged ship and slaughter its crew. Might be a writeoff to that poster above, but I'm sure they and their families will feel differently.

Fact is, we got lucky. Everything was in our favor, right down to the crew. usually, these pirates take both ship and crew. THAT is a completely different scenario with a lot more risks.

 

[garyd]

The pirates got over confident and were working shorthanded.

 

[Gunny]

The pirates got over confident and were working shorthanded.

Exactly. And you can bet they won't make THAT mistake twice. At least, not with us. I would also suspect they would be already plotting retaliation in order to get their heat back. They got punked this time. They aren't going to accept that.

If they take a crew and ship hostage, it won't matter WHAT we put off their coast. They'll still have the upper hand and I doubt we have the political will to go after them.

We obviously don't have it now when burning them out before they get a chance to act would be the correct course of action.

That, or we can go back to sailing around Africa.

 

[auditor0007]

The pirates got over confident and were working shorthanded.

Exactly. And you can bet they won't make THAT mistake twice. At least, not with us. I would also suspect they would be already plotting retaliation in order to get their heat back. They got punked this time. They aren't going to accept that.

If they take a crew and ship hostage, it won't matter WHAT we put off their coast. They'll still have the upper hand and I doubt we have the political will to go after them.

We obviously don't have it now when burning them out before they get a chance to act would be the correct course of action.

That, or we can go back to sailing around Africa.

After reading all the not so well thought through posts, I'm glad to see someone understands that we didn't win anything here. The fact is, this may make things worse down the road. Now that we have taken decisive action, we better well be prepared to follow through, because this isn't the end of it. We better start thinking of ways to protect all of these ships before they are hijacked. Once the hijackers have control, there isn't much any military can do without expecting the loss of hostages.

Prior to this, I do not believe any hostages have been killed. That is now very likely to change.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

The pirates got over confident and were working shorthanded.

Exactly. And you can bet they won't make THAT mistake twice. At least, not with us. I would also suspect they would be already plotting retaliation in order to get their heat back. They got punked this time. They aren't going to accept that.

If they take a crew and ship hostage, it won't matter WHAT we put off their coast. They'll still have the upper hand and I doubt we have the political will to go after them.

We obviously don't have it now when burning them out before they get a chance to act would be the correct course of action.

That, or we can go back to sailing around Africa.

After reading all the not so well thought through posts, I'm glad to see someone understands that we didn't win anything here. The fact is, this may make things worse down the road. Now that we have taken decisive action, we better well be prepared to follow through, because this isn't the end of it. We better start thinking of ways to protect all of these ships before they are hijacked. Once the hijackers have control, there isn't much any military can do without expecting the loss of hostages.

Prior to this, I do not believe any hostages have been killed. That is now very likely to change.

Maybe. But the primary goal is to get money. This is very distinct from Islamic terrorists, who may seek money but as a means to an ideological end, not a means in itself. Killing hostages is not very conducive to that goal of profit in general, unless you have plenty of spare hostages and you're not being taken seriously.

About being short-handed, I can see what they were thinking there. They got greedy, and most of the hijackings had gone so well with so little effort. If you bring dozens of people you have to split the loot more ways, so you want to use the minimal number of people to complete the job, as in any business. If they feel they have to bring more people, that makes the eventual payout lower. When victims and nations are willing to use force, even at the risk of hostages' lives, that also deters future crimes in the sense of heightened risk without a compensatory increase in profits (as is seen in Black market goods).

Deterrence does work with economic crimes. The boats need to be harder to board and the crews must be armed. A bomb and bullet resistant shelter could be devised in the ship as well, so that if all else fails the hostages cannot be used to prevent the military from coming down upon the pirates. Every conceiveable target-hardening strategy should be utilized, and as the pirates success rate goes to nearly zero, the piracy will stop.

 

[dilloduck]

Undeterred Somali pirates hijack 3 more ships

MOMBASA, Kenya – Undeterred by U.S. and French hostage rescues that killed seven bandits, Somali pirates brazenly hijacked three more ships in the Gulf of Aden, the key waterway that's become the focal point of the world's fight against piracy.

The latest trophy for the pirates was the M.V. Irene E.M., a Greek-managed bulk carrier sailing from the Middle East to South Asia, said Noel Choong, who heads the International Maritime Bureau's piracy reporting center in Kuala Lumpur.

The Irene was attacked and seized in the middle of the night Tuesday — a rare tactic for the pirates.

U.S. Navy Lt. Nathan Christensen, spokesman for the Bahrain-based 5th Fleet, said the Irene was flagged in the Caribbean island nation of St. Vincent and the Grenadines and carried 23 Filipino crew. Choong reported a crew of 21, and there was no immediate way to reconcile the figures.

A maritime security contractor, speaking on condition of anonymity because it is a sensitive security issue, said the ship put out a distress signal "to say they had a suspicious vessel approaching. That rapidly turned into an attack and then a hijacking."

"They tried to call in support on the emergency channels, but they never got any response," the contractor said

 

[Gunny]

The pirates got over confident and were working shorthanded.

Exactly. And you can bet they won't make THAT mistake twice. At least, not with us. I would also suspect they would be already plotting retaliation in order to get their heat back. They got punked this time. They aren't going to accept that.

If they take a crew and ship hostage, it won't matter WHAT we put off their coast. They'll still have the upper hand and I doubt we have the political will to go after them.

We obviously don't have it now when burning them out before they get a chance to act would be the correct course of action.

That, or we can go back to sailing around Africa.

After reading all the not so well thought through posts, I'm glad to see someone understands that we didn't win anything here. The fact is, this may make things worse down the road. Now that we have taken decisive action, we better well be prepared to follow through, because this isn't the end of it. We better start thinking of ways to protect all of these ships before they are hijacked. Once the hijackers have control, there isn't much any military can do without expecting the loss of hostages.

Prior to this, I do not believe any hostages have been killed. That is now very likely to change.

I find it rather interesting that one of our WORST traits as a society is that we think in terms of individual victory. In effect, we lose to the very same mindset that allowed us to defeat the native Americans time after time.

These people want to win the war. They are going to live how they want and anything that annoys them, or threat to their lifestyles will be made to pay. All they have to do is make us "think" that going after them is not worth the time, manpower and money, and they win.

Some people understand nothing but force. Unfortunately, we seem to be overpopulated with the ones that can't grasp that simple concept.

 

[editec]

Seems like these people live in an anarchic state of warlords and (now I guess) sealording pirates.

People with essantially nothing to lose tend to do whatever it takes.

We can kill pirates and sealording pirates, over and over again, but that probably won't solve much.

The longer term solution is to get Somalia stabilized.

Two ways to do that.

Either select one warlord to be our bastard or the longer and much harder solution that might not even be possible, which is to build a nation where none exists today.

I'd advise the first option. Yesterday's priates and warlords are todays kings and prime ministers, folks.

Somebody has to win before the anarchy goes away.

I'm informed that Somolia is basically not a nation, so much as a collection of tribes, so finding the largest tribe or tribes to support and bring back into something approaching the civilized world seems like the long approach I'd take.

The JP Morgan approach seems like the one most likely to solve this problem, long run.

 

[Dr Grump]

I find it rather interesting that one of our WORST traits as a society is that we think in terms of individual victory. In effect, we lose to the very same mindset that allowed us to defeat the native Americans time after time.

These people want to win the war. They are going to live how they want and anything that annoys them, or threat to their lifestyles will be made to pay. All they have to do is make us "think" that going after them is not worth the time, manpower and money, and they win.

Some people understand nothing but force. Unfortunately, we seem to be overpopulated with the ones that can't grasp that simple concept.

one of the few times you and I agree completely on something. Ok, so now the pirates are saying that they will kill hostages. Well, d'uh! Ok, so this is the scenario: Pirates take hostages and kill them. Result? Definitely no ransom, and dead pirates. My money is on the US Navy winning this one in the end...easily too...

 

[dilloduck]

Seems like these people live in an anarchic state of warlords and (now I guess) sealording pirates.

People with essantially nothing to lose tend to do whatever it takes.

We can kill pirates and sealording pirates, over and over again, but that probably won't solve much.

The longer term solution is to get Somalia stabilized.

Two ways to do that.

Either select one warlord to be our bastard or the longer and much harder solution that might not even be possible, which is to build a nation where none exists today.

I'd advise the first option. Yesterday's priates and warlords are todays kings and prime ministers, folks.

Somebody has to win before the anarchy goes away.

I'm informed that Somolia is basically not a nation, so much as a collection of tribes, so finding the largest tribe or tribes to support and bring back into something approaching the civilized world seems like the long approach I'd take.

The JP Morgan approach seems like the one most likely to solve this problem, long run.

Do you think Obama is into nation building ?

 

[editec]

I find it rather interesting that one of our WORST traits as a society is that we think in terms of individual victory. In effect, we lose to the very same mindset that allowed us to defeat the native Americans time after time.

These people want to win the war. They are going to live how they want and anything that annoys them, or threat to their lifestyles will be made to pay. All they have to do is make us "think" that going after them is not worth the time, manpower and money, and they win.

Some people understand nothing but force. Unfortunately, we seem to be overpopulated with the ones that can't grasp that simple concept.

one of the few times you and I agree completely on something. Ok, so now the pirates are saying that they will kill hostages. Well, d'uh! Ok, so this is the scenario: Pirates take hostages and kill them. Result? Definitely no ransom, and dead pirates. My money is on the US Navy winning this one in the end...easily too...

Winning is NOT having to have the NAVY there, Grump.

Now unless we're prepared to kill everyone, the warlords/tribla leaders are going to continue finding new teenaged boys to arm and dominate somalian and probably to hijack ships.

Winning is really making it worth their while to NOT to hijack ships.

We don't so that by paying ransoms and we probably can't do it by winning every sea battle, either.

We win when they find something better to do with themselves.

 

[Dr Grump]

Winning is NOT having to have the NAVY there, Grump.

Now unless we're prepared to kill everyone, the warlords/tribla leaders are going to continue finding new teenaged boys to arm and dominate somalian and probably to hijack ships.

Winning is really making it worth their while to NOT to hijack ships.

We don't so that by paying ransoms and we probably can't do it by winning every sea battle, either.

We win when they find something better to do with themselves.

I concur, but have come to the conclusion that Somalia will be a basketcase for at least a few more decades, if not forever. That being the case, fuck 'em. It will only become not worth their while if people don't pay ransoms, or they die...simple. Don't get me wrong, I am enough of a leftie to get your sentiment, but there comes a time when you have to realise you are not dealing with people who have a Western World mindset...Stop thinking, they think like us. They don't...

 

[editec]

My version of leftness is not a suicide pact.

But if we find ourselves in a continuous battle with thugs because we see a land that's gone into a state of anarchy, and we do nothing to end the anarchic state, then we lose no matter how often we win every battle.

The secret to diplomacy isn't to win wars, the secret is to get other people to win wars for us.

 

[Dr Grump]

My version of leftness is not a suicide pact.

But if we find ourselves in a continuous battle with thugs because we see a land that's gone into a state of anarchy, and we do nothing to end the anarchic state, then we lose no matter how often we win every battle.

The secret to diplomacy isn't to win wars, the secret is to get other people to win wars for us.

There is no suicide pact. If the US really wanted to lay waste to Somalia, they could do so in a heartbeat. People look at the tragedy of Black Hawk down and think what a waste of 17 US servicemen's lives. And it was. But just as important is to remember approximately 1000 Somali's lost their lives in that fire fight. Not 10. Not 100. 1000 in their own back yard. I think if the US gets pushed, Somalia is stuffed. There are no mountains to hide in, and no where else for them to run to. The Ethiopians hate them as do the Eritreans (after all, they were part of the same country not so long ago). Maybe they should go back to fishing, or getting along with their neighbouring clans...

 

[catzmeow]

Agreed. And we need to take it to them before they do capture another US flagged ship and slaughter its crew. Might be a writeoff to that poster above, but I'm sure they and their families will feel differently.

Fact is, we got lucky. Everything was in our favor, right down to the crew. usually, these pirates take both ship and crew. THAT is a completely different scenario with a lot more risks.

Here is one dangerous thing. The really valuable piece of the equation, from the corporations involved, is the ship and cargo itself. The crew can be held for ransom, but if you make it clear that the crew can and will retaliate, there is less likelihood that the pirates will capture the crew...they will just kill them out of hand (less mess, less fuss). That's the next step up the level of escalation. The step above that is threatening to DESTROY the ship entirely. How exactly will you defend against multiple swift-moving targets with RPGs, etc.? Navy war games involving these types of attackers have shown that to be one of our weaknesses.