Religious marker may be erected at old Capitol

[bodecea]

Honoring the 10 commandments as historical in the law process is not quite the same as 'directing the people who and what to worship.... don't worry, you can still have your Obama altar

An interesting point. What do you think would be done and said IF there was a vote by lawmakers to have a religious monument to Obama (or his sayings) put in front of a government courthouse or legislative house?

We have quotes of past Presidents and all as monuments... past governors and other historical figures as well...

And if they decided to put Hammurabi's code on a monument.. so be it too

None of it is forcing a religion

Did you intentionally miss where I said "religious monument" to Obama?

 

[DiamondDave]

An interesting point. What do you think would be done and said IF there was a vote by lawmakers to have a religious monument to Obama (or his sayings) put in front of a government courthouse or legislative house?

We have quotes of past Presidents and all as monuments... past governors and other historical figures as well...

And if they decided to put Hammurabi's code on a monument.. so be it too

None of it is forcing a religion

Did you intentionally miss where I said "religious monument" to Obama?

Well.. if there is additional Obama worship above what we have on the far left now... and it becomes a religion.... and his quotes are used on a monument in some government building or memorial.. so be it...

AGAIN, for the dense.. .it is not the same as having the government force a religion

 

[Lonestar_logic]

An interesting point. What do you think would be done and said IF there was a vote by lawmakers to have a religious monument to Obama (or his sayings) put in front of a government courthouse or legislative house?

Wow your reduced to making strawman arguments.

I guess you are just too stupid to notice that I am replying to Diamond Dave's comments about an "Obama altar."


Or else you are just a dishonest simpleton.

Oh you were responding to sarcasm. You do know what sarcasm is .... don't you? So here you are responding to sarcasm with a strawman argument. hmmm yea I think I was correct the first time when I said that you now reduced to making strawman arguments.

 

[beowolfe]

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

This is the hilarious part!!

 

[☭proletarian☭]

It's amazing how many seemingly intelligent people there are who don't understand the separation of church and state clause. So let me enlighten you people. The phrase originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802, was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.

The constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Both the free exercise clause and the establishment clause place restrictions on the government concerning laws they pass or interfering with religion. No restrictions are placed on religions except perhaps that a religious denomination cannot become the state religion.

Which church gets to stick their nose in the State's business?

All of them. The "state's business" is "our" business, you know "we the people". The separation clause's main purpose was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists. The Supreme Court in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation." John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." The founders were definitely Christian for the most part. At least 90 to 95 percentage of them were practicing, Trinitarian Christians. This and the additional supporting evidence below show conclusively that the concern that motivated the framers to include the establishment clause in the constitution was definitely not fear of the doctrinal religion of Christian Theism. It was understood that Christian Theism was the default state doctrinal religion. As opposed to being something to fear, it was something believed to be vital to the success of our government. Consequently, the framers feared a state denominational religion not a state doctrinal religion! Some additional evidences that indicate Christian Theism was the national doctrinal religion are listed below:

• Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."
• The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.
• God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
• As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.
• Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
• The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.
• Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
• Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
• Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."
• Our national anthem mentions God.
• The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
• The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.
• Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.
• Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.
• The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools.

Are you Michael Franzese? Or are you Traci? Or did you copy->paste this from somewhere else, like Landover Baptist?

 

[DiamondDave]

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

This is the hilarious part!!

Funny part is that a monument is not inherently an idol

But thank you for playing... see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The Supreme Court in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation."

Let's see that quote in context

This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation… we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth… These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation[/QUOTE]
Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They never declared the US a christian nation. They merely commented that most Americans adhered to some form of Christianity and that may people consider themselves part of a (predominantly) christian nation.

The case is also famous for Justice Brewer's statements that America is a "Christian nation." While this case was not specifically about religion, the court considered America's Christian identity to be a strong support for its conclusion. Almost half of the text of the opinion is spent demonstrating America's Christian identity, in order to show that congress could not have intended to prohibit foreign ministers.Referring back to this case in Public Citizen v. Department of Justice, 491 U.S. 440 (1989),[2] Justice Kennedy, joined by Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice O'Connor, wrote:

"The central support for the Court's ultimate conclusion that Congress did not intend the law to cover Christian ministers is its lengthy review of the 'unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation,' and which were taken to prove that it could not 'be believed that a Congress of the United States intended to make it a misdemeanor for a church of this country to contract for the services of a Christian minister residing in another nation.'" Id., at 471.

(same source)

John Quincy Adams said, "

The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.

In the first edition of his videotape, America's Godly Heritage, David Barton quotes John Quincy Adams as follows:

• The highest glory of the American Revolution is this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.

While the quote doesn't appear in any of Barton's later works, it does turn up in another popular Christian book, William J. Federer's, America's God and Country: Encyclopedia of Quotations, p. 18. Federer provides a date for the quotation (July 4, 1821), and gives the source as follows:

• John Wingate Thornton, The Pulpit of the American Revolution 1860 (reprinted NY: Burt Franklin, 1860; 1970), p. XXIX.

We recently located this source and now suspect that John Quincy Adams never uttered these words. Here's what we found:



Pages X through XXXVIII of the Thornton book are a historical introduction to the subject of religion in the New England States, with a special focus on the state of Massachusetts. Throughout this introduction, Thornton quotes various early Americans on the subject of religion. At least some of the quotations are footnoted, and all of them appear to be enclosed in quotation marks. Sometimes portions of the quotations are italicized for emphasis.
The words attributed to John Quincy Adams appear on page XXIX. None of these words are placed in quotation marks. Rather, the sentence reads as if Thornton is making his own conclusion about what John Quincy Adams believed. Thornton's sentence reads as follows:

• The highest glory of the American Revolution, said John Quincy Adams, was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principle of Christianity (italics in the original).

No footnote for these words is given. Nor are the words attached to a date. Hence, if these words are a quotation from Adams, it is impossible to trace them back from Thornton's book to an original source. Elsewhere in the book Adams' father (John Adams) is quoted properly, i.e., with footnotes and quotation marks.

John Adams, the American Revolution, and Christianity


Amazing what happens when I highlight your post, right-click, and then click on 'Search google for'

 

[☭proletarian☭]

You don't think putting a particular religious symbol on a government building with taxpayer money has anything to do with separation of church and state?

And again, which version of the Ten Commandments is being used? The Jewish, the Catholic, or the Protestant one? (yes, there are 3 distinct versions)

reread the first amendment and get back to me. putting up a statue, or a tablet is hardly the same as the govt establishing a religion and forcing you to support it.EOF

as to which version of the ten commandments they use, i don't give a flying fuck about that, nor would i care if a koan, a verse from the koran, a shinto haiku or a quote from thoreau.

*shrug*

perspective. try it.

Here's the issue....WHY put a copy of the Ten Commandments in front of a State Building where SECULAR law (that is supposed to treat all Zonies equally) is being created? What is the purpose here?

What think you?

WTF is a Zonie? Did you mean a Zonian? I didn't know we lived in the Canal Zone back in Panama....

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Which church gets to stick their nose in the State's business?

All of them. The "state's business" is "our" business, you know "we the people". The separation clause's main purpose was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists. The Supreme Court in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation." John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." The founders were definitely Christian for the most part. At least 90 to 95 percentage of them were practicing, Trinitarian Christians. This and the additional supporting evidence below show conclusively that the concern that motivated the framers to include the establishment clause in the constitution was definitely not fear of the doctrinal religion of Christian Theism. It was understood that Christian Theism was the default state doctrinal religion. As opposed to being something to fear, it was something believed to be vital to the success of our government. Consequently, the framers feared a state denominational religion not a state doctrinal religion! Some additional evidences that indicate Christian Theism was the national doctrinal religion are listed below:

• Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."
• The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.
• God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
• As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.
• Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
• The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.
• Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
• Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
• Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."
• Our national anthem mentions God.
• The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
• The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.
• Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.
• Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.
• The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools.

Are you Michael Franzese? Or are you Traci? Or did you copy->paste this from somewhere else, like Landover Baptist?

No and I'm not wikipedia neither but I cut and paste text from there as well. There's nothing in what I posted that isn't common knowledge or fact. The phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution, never has been and never will be, it came from a letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. Now if you want to make an issue out of cutting and pasting then go for it, it doesn't counter any of the points raised nor diminshes the argument. But pettiness isn't lost with you, now is it?

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

For full disclosure here's the letter of which Jefferson was responding to.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Hi, you have received -91 reputation points from California Girl.

I guess eh doesn't like when people actually read the article and call her out.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The Supreme Court in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation."

Let's see that quote in context

This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation… we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth… These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation[/QUOTE]
Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They never declared the US a christian nation. They merely commented that most Americans adhered to some form of Christianity and that may people consider themselves part of a (predominantly) christian nation.

(same source)

In the first edition of his videotape, America's Godly Heritage, David Barton quotes John Quincy Adams as follows:

• The highest glory of the American Revolution is this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.

While the quote doesn't appear in any of Barton's later works, it does turn up in another popular Christian book, William J. Federer's, America's God and Country: Encyclopedia of Quotations, p. 18. Federer provides a date for the quotation (July 4, 1821), and gives the source as follows:

• John Wingate Thornton, The Pulpit of the American Revolution 1860 (reprinted NY: Burt Franklin, 1860; 1970), p. XXIX.

We recently located this source and now suspect that John Quincy Adams never uttered these words. Here's what we found:



Pages X through XXXVIII of the Thornton book are a historical introduction to the subject of religion in the New England States, with a special focus on the state of Massachusetts. Throughout this introduction, Thornton quotes various early Americans on the subject of religion. At least some of the quotations are footnoted, and all of them appear to be enclosed in quotation marks. Sometimes portions of the quotations are italicized for emphasis.
The words attributed to John Quincy Adams appear on page XXIX. None of these words are placed in quotation marks. Rather, the sentence reads as if Thornton is making his own conclusion about what John Quincy Adams believed. Thornton's sentence reads as follows:

• The highest glory of the American Revolution, said John Quincy Adams, was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principle of Christianity (italics in the original).

No footnote for these words is given. Nor are the words attached to a date. Hence, if these words are a quotation from Adams, it is impossible to trace them back from Thornton's book to an original source. Elsewhere in the book Adams' father (John Adams) is quoted properly, i.e., with footnotes and quotation marks.

John Adams, the American Revolution, and Christianity


Amazing what happens when I highlight your post, right-click, and then click on 'Search google for'

That quote was in their decision. Period.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

That quote was in their decision. Period.

You're trying to defend a quotemine?

It is now a proven and indisputable fact that you do not care about truth or honesty.

 

[beowolfe]

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

This is the hilarious part!!

Funny part is that a monument is not inherently an idol

But thank you for playing... see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

Generally, you're correct. But not in this instance. Tell Don Pardo, I want the winning prize.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

That quote was in their decision. Period.

You're trying to defend a quotemine?

It is now a proven and indisputable fact that you do not care about truth or honesty.

I'm saying the quote that was referenced by both of us is in the SCOTUS' decision. This is a Christian nation whether you want to believe that or not. This country is made up in large part by Christians roughly 80 percent of the population identify themselves as such. Fact is most of the founding fathers were men of faith. Now you may disagree and think religion is all make believe, but that doesn't take anything away from the facts.

 

[DiamondDave]

This is the hilarious part!!

Funny part is that a monument is not inherently an idol

But thank you for playing... see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

Generally, you're correct. But not in this instance. Tell Don Pardo, I want the winning prize.

WRONG

This is not an 'idol' in any sense of the word

nice try

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Do you not get why a quotemine is a fallacy? Or do you simply not care about being honest?

 

[Dr Gregg]

Hi, you have received -91 reputation points from California Girl.

I guess eh doesn't like when people actually read the article and call her out.

How do you chose how many points to give out? Is it just based on how long you've been here? Anyway, she's another trollish person who just rants and raves with very little logic or reasoning

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Do you not get why a quotemine is a fallacy? Or do you simply not care about being honest?

You're saying I used the quote out of context but I don't believe I did. I stated simply that the SCOTUS declared ( meaning: stated in an open way so that people know about it) this is a Christian nation, which was a true statement. You using one small snippet of the SCOTUS' decision could be viewed as a quote mine as well. Read the entire text of the Court's opinion then get back to me.

Allow me to insert a few passages:

Coming nearer to the present time, the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." "We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare," etc.; "And for the [143 U.S. 457, 468] support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 (now 50)states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the well-being of the community. This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the constitution of Illinois, 1870: "We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations," etc.

It may be only in the familiar requisition that all officers shall take an oath closing with the declaration, "so help me God." It may be in clauses like that of the constitution of Indiana, 1816, art. 11, §4: "The manner of administering an oath or affirmation shall be such as is most consistent with the conscience of the deponent, and shall be esteemed the most solemn appeal to God." Or in provisions such as are found in articles 36 and 37 of the declaration of the rights of the constitution of Maryland, (1867): "That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty: wherefore, no person ought, by any law, to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace, or safety of the state, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any place of worship or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness or juror on account of his religious belief: provided, he [143 U.S. 457, 469] believes in the existence of God, and that, under his dispensation, such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefor, either in this world or the world to come. That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office or profit or trust in this state, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this constitution." Or like that in articles 2 and 3 of part 1 of the constitution of Massachusetts, (1780 "It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the Great Creator and Preserver of the universe. * * * As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of public instructions in piety, religion, and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness, and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provisions shall not be made voluntarily." Or, as in sections 5 and 14 of article 7 of the constitution of Mississippi, (1832 "No person who denies the being of a God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state. * * * Religion {516} morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government, the preservation of liberty, and the happiness of mankind, schools, and the means of education, shall forever be encouraged in this state." Or by article 22 of the constitution of Delaware, (1776,) which required all officers, besides an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe the following declaration: "I, A.B., do profess [143 U.S. 457, 470] faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

You should really read the rest of it. You may learn something.

 

[Dr Gregg]

That quote was in their decision. Period.

You're trying to defend a quotemine?

It is now a proven and indisputable fact that you do not care about truth or honesty.

I could tell that about idiot logic in a matter of days, just reading a handful of his responses.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Hi, you have received -91 reputation points from California Girl.

I guess eh doesn't like when people actually read the article and call her out.

How do you chose how many points to give out? Is it just based on how long you've been here? Anyway, she's another trollish person who just rants and raves with very little logic or reasoning

Your neg rep is equal to 1/2 of the rep power that you give. Your rep power is found on the bottom of the states to the right of your name/avatar

Dr Gregg

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