So we end NAFTA, and then what? What is it right wingers think will happen?

[beagle9]

There have been many, many posts on this site about NAFTA and employment.

It's true, Ohio has lost 300,000 jobs since NAFTA was signed. The country has lost millions of jobs since NAFTA. But if the US is losing so many jobs to Mexico, and even China, then why are China and Mexico also losing jobs?

It's called Technology and automation. And you can't ban those. We have no trade agreement with Technology and Automation.

The only thing you can do is get an education and join. Or support. But support will generally be low paying jobs. And that's it. That's all you can do. One or the other.

We could scrap NAFTA and the WTO, and all those manufacturing jobs will not be coming back.

. So..... Maybe we need to rethink our direction that we are going in now, and we should also think about what kind of nation we are to become in the future, and as to whether or not we will still be united as a people or be shattered as a people in that we are like the Chinese worker who will obey or get run over by a tank ???

 

[beagle9]

i had to look that up in the urban dictionary

But that's the black market, and it's doin' just fine with or without a treaty!

I'll give you a more informative answer.

Products that the United States imports from Mexico (2014)

According to the OEC, which is an MIT project (I wager collecting millions in government grants).....

We import roughly $290 Billion in products from Mexico.

The largest single portion of which, as you guessed.... is Crude oil, at $26 Billion. So while it is the single largest import... it's still only 9% of the products we get from Mexico.

The rest are various goods ranging from fully built cars (namely the VW Jetta, and some Honda models), to food products, medical supplies, and even precious metals.

The largest section of imports is equipment, which ranges from computers, to telephones, to refrigerators, air pumps and street lights.

The primary reason you generally don't see "made in Mexico" on much, is because the products we import from Mexico, tend to either be large expensive things, like Tractor Trailers, Delivery Vans, industrial electrical transformers, and industrial furnaces.... or they tend to be items that are used to make other products. For example, Mexico sold to us, almost $7 Billion dollars in seats. Seats in busses, seats in aircraft, seats put into your car. You could be putting your butt on a Mexican imported seat every time you drive.

Equally we tend to export to Mexico, tons of refined oil products, and many built goods, and additionally we sell tons of production equipment. For example, metal molds, chemical compounds, control systems, and so on.

What you will notice though, is that many of the exact same things are both imported and exported to, and from, the exact same countries.

All the same things listed that we import from Mexico, we also export to Mexico.

For example, VW has their assembly plant in Mexico, but the Engine plant is located in the US.
At the same time, Ford's diesel engine is built in Mexico, but assembled into a car, here in the US.

So when you see Mexico is importing car engines, and exporting car engines at the same time... it seems to defy logic. In reality, we export computers to Mexico, and import computers from Mexico. We export chemicals to Mexico, and import chemicals from Mexico.

Same with cars. We import cars from Mexico. We also export billions of dollars worth of cars to Mexico. Manufacturers who have cars they can't sell, can often export them to Mexico and recoup some of the loss. And of course millions of used cars are shipped south as well.

This is why, no matter what limitation on free-trade we put in place, it will hurt US, the most. Protectionism will always harm the country engaging in it, the most.

Nearly all of the jobs I've had, used imported goods to build their products. The job I'm at right now, does this. Most of those jobs would cease to exist, if protectionism was implemented, and free-trade was repealed.

. Ok then what needs to happen for labor on all sides of the equation then, is that the united states who leads on most policy making or influencing in the world, should work tirelessly to get the world to play fair or right when it comes to the same stance or policy taken on the treatment of our soldiers in a humanitarian way, and this when they are out in the world warring for what should be humanitarian causes being fought for.

Labor around the world should enjoy the same protections as the soldiers of war, and the mistreatment of labor should be seen in the same way as the mistreatment of soldiers or of the prisoners of war. But see that won't play well in the communist world like China in which this idiot nation should have never engaged with, because they have the worst human rights records in the world per-sae, but for the love of globalism we turn a blind eye to these things, and that makes this nation just as guilty as the nations doing the abuses or mistreatment of it's citizens.

Our complicit blind eye has made us to be in subjection to our old enemies for whom were once nations that feared our righteousness, and stance on human rights in the world, but now they see that our greed has caused us to join the very thing in which we once disagreed with totally on. It's shameful, and the demons amongst us are loving every minute of it.

The problem there is..... how are they playing 'unfair'? A free trade agreement, is just that.... free trade.

In other words, if we can buy goods with zero tariff, and sell goods with zero tariff.... that's fair in my book.

In what way are other countries playing unfairly?

Soldiers are a different deal, because we end up with their people, and they end up with our people. So a mutual standard on how to treat soldiers benefits both sides.

I would disagree with you on how to treat labor.

First, it's not even possible. If you demanded today, that the labor of 1900s, should enjoy the same level of treatment in 2000, what you are talking about is not just unlikely... it's impossible.

The companies did not have the physical wealth to provide the same level of comfort to their employees in 1900, that companies have the wealth to provide today. It simply isn't possible. You could demand that they do, all you want. You could even pass laws that require they do, all you want. But it's not going to happen, because its' simply not possible.

It would be like a 10-year-old demanding his parents buy him a $400 Playstation 4, in the 1900s. Not only was the technology not available, but your parents simply didn't have that kind of money.

Similarly, these countries you are talking about, often don't have the means or even the availability of the standards you are trying to require.

And in many cases, some of these countries are not like the US in the 1900s, but some are like the US in the 1800s. A few are like the US in the 1700s.

These employers located over seas, do not have the money to provide a US standard of employment. Even if they did have the money, many countries do not have the ability to provide such a standard.

So while it's nifty to sit around and claim we should force foreign companies to provide X Y and Z, essentially, if we made that an actual rule, those companies would shut down, and all those people unemployed.

How would you feel, if the UN imposed a rule on the US, that forced your company, and your son's and daughter's companies to shut down?

It's pretty easy to sit here on your moral high-horse, while you doom others to endless poverty by driving out the few good jobs in their country. And by the way, they are the few goods jobs. The Nike Factory that the left-wingers forced to close in Malaysia, was one of the highest paying employers in Malaysia. That's why they had 100 applicants for each vacant position.

Lastly, I'm a bit put off by this hypocrisy.

You talk about our complicit blind eye, yet corporations do tons of audits on vendors. Most of the big corporations to routine checks, to see that their vendors are up to par.

Now compare that to.... yourself. Have you checked your suppliers? Do you check how the mechanic shop that fixes your car, how they treat their employees? Are you willing to pay a much higher price to go to a more expensive shop that pays their employees more?

Have you checked how the farms you buy your food from, how they treat their employees?

Have you checked the working conditions at the utility companies?

The preacher should practice what he preaches, don't you think?

. You would disagree with me on how to treat labor eh ?? So as long as the Chinese can abuse laborers who make tons of goods for America without us seeing it from our house, then that's ok with you eh ??

If you can't read, you shouldn't be on a forum.

Either learn to read, or get off the forum. You are waste of time to the rest of us who want an adult discussion.

. I read just fine, now did you forget what you wrote or are you embarrassed that you wrote something that makes you look heartless & cold ?? Great skills when telling thousands to go sit at the house, and to hell with us because we weren't able to adjust to third world standards now eh ?

 

[Andylusion]

I'll give you a more informative answer.

Products that the United States imports from Mexico (2014)

According to the OEC, which is an MIT project (I wager collecting millions in government grants).....

We import roughly $290 Billion in products from Mexico.

The largest single portion of which, as you guessed.... is Crude oil, at $26 Billion. So while it is the single largest import... it's still only 9% of the products we get from Mexico.

The rest are various goods ranging from fully built cars (namely the VW Jetta, and some Honda models), to food products, medical supplies, and even precious metals.

The largest section of imports is equipment, which ranges from computers, to telephones, to refrigerators, air pumps and street lights.

The primary reason you generally don't see "made in Mexico" on much, is because the products we import from Mexico, tend to either be large expensive things, like Tractor Trailers, Delivery Vans, industrial electrical transformers, and industrial furnaces.... or they tend to be items that are used to make other products. For example, Mexico sold to us, almost $7 Billion dollars in seats. Seats in busses, seats in aircraft, seats put into your car. You could be putting your butt on a Mexican imported seat every time you drive.

Equally we tend to export to Mexico, tons of refined oil products, and many built goods, and additionally we sell tons of production equipment. For example, metal molds, chemical compounds, control systems, and so on.

What you will notice though, is that many of the exact same things are both imported and exported to, and from, the exact same countries.

All the same things listed that we import from Mexico, we also export to Mexico.

For example, VW has their assembly plant in Mexico, but the Engine plant is located in the US.
At the same time, Ford's diesel engine is built in Mexico, but assembled into a car, here in the US.

So when you see Mexico is importing car engines, and exporting car engines at the same time... it seems to defy logic. In reality, we export computers to Mexico, and import computers from Mexico. We export chemicals to Mexico, and import chemicals from Mexico.

Same with cars. We import cars from Mexico. We also export billions of dollars worth of cars to Mexico. Manufacturers who have cars they can't sell, can often export them to Mexico and recoup some of the loss. And of course millions of used cars are shipped south as well.

This is why, no matter what limitation on free-trade we put in place, it will hurt US, the most. Protectionism will always harm the country engaging in it, the most.

Nearly all of the jobs I've had, used imported goods to build their products. The job I'm at right now, does this. Most of those jobs would cease to exist, if protectionism was implemented, and free-trade was repealed.

. Ok then what needs to happen for labor on all sides of the equation then, is that the united states who leads on most policy making or influencing in the world, should work tirelessly to get the world to play fair or right when it comes to the same stance or policy taken on the treatment of our soldiers in a humanitarian way, and this when they are out in the world warring for what should be humanitarian causes being fought for.

Labor around the world should enjoy the same protections as the soldiers of war, and the mistreatment of labor should be seen in the same way as the mistreatment of soldiers or of the prisoners of war. But see that won't play well in the communist world like China in which this idiot nation should have never engaged with, because they have the worst human rights records in the world per-sae, but for the love of globalism we turn a blind eye to these things, and that makes this nation just as guilty as the nations doing the abuses or mistreatment of it's citizens.

Our complicit blind eye has made us to be in subjection to our old enemies for whom were once nations that feared our righteousness, and stance on human rights in the world, but now they see that our greed has caused us to join the very thing in which we once disagreed with totally on. It's shameful, and the demons amongst us are loving every minute of it.

The problem there is..... how are they playing 'unfair'? A free trade agreement, is just that.... free trade.

In other words, if we can buy goods with zero tariff, and sell goods with zero tariff.... that's fair in my book.

In what way are other countries playing unfairly?

Soldiers are a different deal, because we end up with their people, and they end up with our people. So a mutual standard on how to treat soldiers benefits both sides.

I would disagree with you on how to treat labor.

First, it's not even possible. If you demanded today, that the labor of 1900s, should enjoy the same level of treatment in 2000, what you are talking about is not just unlikely... it's impossible.

The companies did not have the physical wealth to provide the same level of comfort to their employees in 1900, that companies have the wealth to provide today. It simply isn't possible. You could demand that they do, all you want. You could even pass laws that require they do, all you want. But it's not going to happen, because its' simply not possible.

It would be like a 10-year-old demanding his parents buy him a $400 Playstation 4, in the 1900s. Not only was the technology not available, but your parents simply didn't have that kind of money.

Similarly, these countries you are talking about, often don't have the means or even the availability of the standards you are trying to require.

And in many cases, some of these countries are not like the US in the 1900s, but some are like the US in the 1800s. A few are like the US in the 1700s.

These employers located over seas, do not have the money to provide a US standard of employment. Even if they did have the money, many countries do not have the ability to provide such a standard.

So while it's nifty to sit around and claim we should force foreign companies to provide X Y and Z, essentially, if we made that an actual rule, those companies would shut down, and all those people unemployed.

How would you feel, if the UN imposed a rule on the US, that forced your company, and your son's and daughter's companies to shut down?

It's pretty easy to sit here on your moral high-horse, while you doom others to endless poverty by driving out the few good jobs in their country. And by the way, they are the few goods jobs. The Nike Factory that the left-wingers forced to close in Malaysia, was one of the highest paying employers in Malaysia. That's why they had 100 applicants for each vacant position.

Lastly, I'm a bit put off by this hypocrisy.

You talk about our complicit blind eye, yet corporations do tons of audits on vendors. Most of the big corporations to routine checks, to see that their vendors are up to par.

Now compare that to.... yourself. Have you checked your suppliers? Do you check how the mechanic shop that fixes your car, how they treat their employees? Are you willing to pay a much higher price to go to a more expensive shop that pays their employees more?

Have you checked how the farms you buy your food from, how they treat their employees?

Have you checked the working conditions at the utility companies?

The preacher should practice what he preaches, don't you think?

. You would disagree with me on how to treat labor eh ?? So as long as the Chinese can abuse laborers who make tons of goods for America without us seeing it from our house, then that's ok with you eh ??

If you can't read, you shouldn't be on a forum.

Either learn to read, or get off the forum. You are waste of time to the rest of us who want an adult discussion.

. I read just fine, now did you forget what you wrote or are you embarrassed that you wrote something that makes you look heartless & cold ?? Great skills when telling thousands to go sit at the house, and to hell with us because we weren't able to adjust to third world standards now eh ?

Yes or no. Did I say "Chinese can abuse laborers who make tons of goods for America without us seeing it from our house, then that's ok with you eh" anywhere in my post?

No. So, you either can't read, or you are too childish to admit I have an argument you can't contradict. Which is it? You can't read, or you refuse to admit my point?

Are you just childish, or mentally challenged? You tell me, what your malfunction is.

 

[Andylusion]

There have been many, many posts on this site about NAFTA and employment.

It's true, Ohio has lost 300,000 jobs since NAFTA was signed. The country has lost millions of jobs since NAFTA. But if the US is losing so many jobs to Mexico, and even China, then why are China and Mexico also losing jobs?

It's called Technology and automation. And you can't ban those. We have no trade agreement with Technology and Automation.

The only thing you can do is get an education and join. Or support. But support will generally be low paying jobs. And that's it. That's all you can do. One or the other.

We could scrap NAFTA and the WTO, and all those manufacturing jobs will not be coming back.

. So..... Maybe we need to rethink our direction that we are going in now, and we should also think about what kind of nation we are to become in the future, and as to whether or not we will still be united as a people or be shattered as a people in that we are like the Chinese worker who will obey or get run over by a tank ???

Those two things are not connected.

With... or without... free trade.. if we as a people refuse to submit to government authority and the rule of law, we will end up like China with an authoritarian government.

The more we allow protests and riots, and criminal activity, the more the rest of society will turn to government, and give government ever great authority to have peace in the streets.

If we don't deal with the anarchy, the result is dictatorship. Even as we speak right now, in our time, laws are being written and pushed, in response to the police shootings in Texas, and Baton Rouge, and Washington, to increase crowd control, and robots with bombs.

As long as the people act more and more crazy, the government will grow more and more strong, as people turn to government to fix the problem.

Has nothing to do with free trade.

Regardless, the point that Toro is making is correct. Those jobs you are complaining about with NAFTA and WTO... are not coming back. There is no policy, no legislation, no law you can make, that is going to bring those jobs back. They are not coming back. Period.

Trump is wrong on this. So are all the left-wingers and Unions. No amount of tariffs, or taxes, or quotas, is going bring those jobs back. It won't happen. Nothing you do will change this.

At the same time by the way, nothing will change the Chinese working at major corporations. Nothing you do will change that either.

I'll give you one simple example, that is true of nearly all companies....

Apple computer makes Iphones in China. Let us pretend that America cuts off imports, and the rest of the world cuts of exports from America. So America is now an isolated market.

Apple can either make the Iphone factory in the US, and sell only to the US... or it can keep the Iphone factory in China, and sell to..... the rest of the entire planet.

Which will Apple do? Well....... of all of Apples retail sales, only 1/4th of their sales are here in the US. The other 3/4ths of all their sales are Europe, Asia, and Japan, as well as South, Central America and Canada.

So Apple is *STILL* going to have their phones built in China, no matter what you do.

So you can argue the morals and reasons for whatever you want... it doesn't matter.

A: The jobs are not coming back... ever.
B: They are still going to make products in other countries like China.... always.

The only difference you are going to make, is how much money the major companies can charge.

What do I mean by that? Remember when in the 1980s, the government convinced Japanese makers to restrict imports? What happened? Honda was charging $5,000 to $10,000 OVER MSRP.... and making massive massive profits.

So what is going to happen if imports of Iphones are restricted? $800 Iphones? Apple making 40% profits?

So the end results of your plan will be....

A: Jobs still not coming back.
B: Chinese people still working to make products in China.
C: Fewer Americans able to buy, and paying massive premiums for the same products.

Not one good result. And at least one bad result.

 

[Muhammed]

So we end NAFTA, and then what? What is it right wingers think will happen?

Under President Trump, jobs move back to the USA, jaskass.