We're Lowering Your Wages

[RodISHI]

You don't realize it, but you are helping to lower all our wages. They got you arguing about overpaid union workers to distract you from the real problem. American workers cost too much. Or foreign workers are cheaper.

Maybe union workers are overpaid and lazy. They also only make up about 12% of the American work force. They're just breaking them first. You're next.

Look here is the deal. As a business owner or CEO I am obligated to insure that my business stays intact or I have to get out of business. If I cannot make a profit then I do not belong in business. If I had paid myself way more than I was worth, spent more than I made and my business ended up in failure then any employees that I had lose too. That is the way the cookie crumbles.

I agree with you that we should not reward companies who send their business overseas. I did not make that policy. Yet these automakers also sell cars overseas and have factories in other countries. That was is their/CEO's choice.

Thank the stock market guru's for the oil fiasco. They have effectively brought everyone down to the same level.

Do I have any sympathy for anyone out there in big business? NO I DON'T. See I owned this nice little company that I spent my own labor and own money to build first. It was destroyed by the greedy assholes that I refused to sell out to (Very large corporations that control politics and money). Then to even further the damage I was personal held accountable for their fraud, the intentional destruction of my equipment, harrassment that most will never face and such in order for them to attempt to bury the truth of all who were involved in the matter. I lived for two years without running water and electric in order to try to fight these beast that have no regard for anyone other than their own selfish greed. There were certain union people here who assisted in the downfall of my business. Not one steppd out of the wings to even assist or help prevent the illegal actions that were taken against my family and myself as even my home was even raided and stripped and I was threaten with arrest for merely objecting and filing reports of what was happening. it was my children that sustained me during most of this and they do not belong to Unions and therefore recieve a tremendous amount of crap when they go out on a job that has unions workers.

I am seeing justice completed as these giant companies and Wall Street fall headlong into the pit that they have dug and created for themselves. If you haev worked for them then in effect you have assisted them. Do not push that off on me as your own problem as I fought the beast and you were not there for me either.


The pride of this nation's financial market and corporations is it's own downfall.

You seem to think that others should secure your position yet you have not helped to secure the same for others. You may need to find another line of work. Reorganize. It does not hurt to bad I am sure you will survive. Just pray that they keep the food stamp program going so you may feed yourself and your family. It is not that you will be able to eat adequately but at least you will not totally starve to death.

 

[RodISHI]

So how many people here (Chris included) are driving a car made by one of the 'Big 3' automakers? I drive a Ford and a Jeep.

Dodge.

added: Should have put this in there to begin with.

It is a 2000 and it is a piece of shit too! Was when it was new and the dealer refused to fix it.

 

[sealybobo]

maybe $30 bucks an hour with benefits most of us can only dream of, for doing something that requires a skill so easy a caveman could do it,

The end result of which will be everything will cost more for everyone. Great plan genius.

Since when is it a companies job to provide you with some arbitrary figure you feel is neccessary to raise a family? For the, I don't know, hundredth time now, it is not a businesses job to provide for your standard of living.

Why do we allow American companies to move jobs overseas? Again simple economics. They have a competitive advantage in labor. They can do the same things at reduced cost. Which opens up even more advantages for them. They can offer a similar or even better quality product at a lesser cost. They can have greater profits making them more attractive to investors and also giving them the ability to invest in technologies they might not otherwise have money for. Or a combination of all of those things.

So company A ships some jobs overseas, but company B insists that they're going to keep jobs in the U.S. Company B now is in the unenviable weaker position in comparison to company A. After all if the consumer can get the same or better quality for less from A, they probably will. Which will just lead to a downward spiral for company B.

Every company is going through this right now. Trying to figure out ways to cut costs so they can keep themselves profitable. It would just wonderful if every company could gaurantee everyone jobs for life, unfortunately economic times demand otherwise. Yes we have had layoffs where I work, which is unfortunate and the most expenable go first. The most expendable people are those with non-scarce skill sets, so in our case a couple dozen people in production were laid off first. Then about a half dozen mid-level people were laid off. In terms of production a company can't afford to keep paying people to build something that consumers aren't buying, it's that simple. In terms of the mid-level jobs, time's like these force companies to examine where their inefficiencies are and if there are redundancies in positions unfortuantely the wises move is to get rid of those people so when the economy does turn around you come out the other end more efficient and stronger. Companies right now aren't sending jobs overseas and laying people off becuase they're all run by evil CEOs. They do it so more people can keep their jobs for the future. They do it so the business can stay in business.

This is why so many people want the Big 3 to just declare bankruptcey. The idea is to force them to do the same things our company had to do. If we just give them money, they can continue to operate as inefficiently as they always have and continue to remain at a disadvantage the companies like Toyota.




I'm not seeing a sudden influx of highly motivated people willing to take time out to learn new skill sets, are you? Unfortunately all I'm seeing is more whiners and people who things businesses owe you something above and beyond whatever you signed for a contract when you got hired.

Enough of you dogging the American people/workers. Fucking retard/traitor. Pick one.

The end result with what you propose is your wages will be lowered and you'll fall out of the middle class.

Because you want to play the Since when Game. Since when do we outsource work to slave labor? Since when do we give corporations tax loopholes to send jobs overseas and avoid paying taxes? Since Reagan/Bush, that's when. Things were fine before GW got into office and pushed this agenda, which clearly doesn't work. Not for American workers anyways. The GOP are purposely lowering our wages. They don't believe in having a strong middle class.

This is why I say Republicans/Conservatives are all one and the same. Bush is a conservative. He very successfully pushed the conservative agenda. Cut wages and cut social programs that help poor/middle class people.

It's not an arbitrary figure. You think we got to where we are arbitrarily?

Company A won't be able to sell products in America once the Dems get in control. Or they will, with tariffs.


Maybe if companies stopped paying CEO's $20 billion, they'd be more profitable. Maybe if the Government didn't let foreign companies come into America to compete on an uneven playing field, maybe American companies would AGAIN be profitable.

So the answer must be to undo what the GOP did.

 

[sealybobo]

Good post Navy!

Hey I have an idea...how about we have the fed repo the factories, fire the multimillion dollar executives, liquidate their golden parachutes, then handover the majority shares to the workers!

 

[Againsheila]

I think that the problem people have with $30 per hour salaries has nothing to do with jealousy, nothing to do with wanting people to have trouble raising their families...and everything to do with whether or not that salary is economically feasible given the fact that people, by and large, do not seem to want to buy the $30 per hour employees cars as much as they want the $15 per hour employees car.

If a business is losing money because people don't want their product AND they are continuing to pay their employees double what other companies are paying...they are going to have trouble. And giving them more money so that they can continue to pay their employees double what other companies are paying and making products that the people don't want isn't going to solve the problem...its just going to delay the next time the company comes begging for money to save its employees.

How about cutting the salaries of the CEO's instead of the salaries of the workers? It's time America had a maximum wage as well as a minimum wage, no country can long survive with such a large discrepancy between the rich and the poor. I think it was Plato who said the richest man in the country should never have more than 7 times more than the poorest man in the country.

 

[Againsheila]

Dodge.

added: Should have put this in there to begin with.

It is a 2000 and it is a piece of shit too! Was when it was new and the dealer refused to fix it.

I drive a Ford Taurus and my husband drives a Ford Focus. Neither one of us have had any major problems. My Taurus is now 11 years old and still running strong. It had 6,000 miles on it when we bought it new. I'm not sure I'd ever buy a car that's not an American brand. BTW, when we bought our Taurus, we had a Japanese exchange student who said her uncle drove a Taurus in Japan.

 

[sealybobo]

Look here is the deal. As a business owner or CEO I am obligated to insure that my business stays intact or I have to get out of business. If I cannot make a profit then I do not belong in business. If I had paid myself way more than I was worth, spent more than I made and my business ended up in failure then any employees that I had lose too. That is the way the cookie crumbles.

I agree with you that we should not reward companies who send their business overseas. I did not make that policy. Yet these automakers also sell cars overseas and have factories in other countries. That was is their/CEO's choice.

Thank the stock market guru's for the oil fiasco. They have effectively brought everyone down to the same level.

Do I have any sympathy for anyone out there in big business? NO I DON'T. See I owned this nice little company that I spent my own labor and own money to build first. It was destroyed by the greedy assholes that I refused to sell out to (Very large corporations that control politics and money). Then to even further the damage I was personal held accountable for their fraud, the intentional destruction of my equipment, harrassment that most will never face and such in order for them to attempt to bury the truth of all who were involved in the matter. I lived for two years without running water and electric in order to try to fight these beast that have no regard for anyone other than their own selfish greed. There were certain union people here who assisted in the downfall of my business. Not one steppd out of the wings to even assist or help prevent the illegal actions that were taken against my family and myself as even my home was even raided and stripped and I was threaten with arrest for merely objecting and filing reports of what was happening. it was my children that sustained me during most of this and they do not belong to Unions and therefore recieve a tremendous amount of crap when they go out on a job that has unions workers.

I am seeing justice completed as these giant companies and Wall Street fall headlong into the pit that they have dug and created for themselves. If you haev worked for them then in effect you have assisted them. Do not push that off on me as your own problem as I fought the beast and you were not there for me either.


The pride of this nation's financial market and corporations is it's own downfall.

You seem to think that others should secure your position yet you have not helped to secure the same for others. You may need to find another line of work. Reorganize. It does not hurt to bad I am sure you will survive. Just pray that they keep the food stamp program going so you may feed yourself and your family. It is not that you will be able to eat adequately but at least you will not totally starve to death.

Some of what you say makes sense and some of what you say makes you sound bitter. And I think I would need to hear more specifics before I could comment on your personal situation.

I know a lot of business owners who are hiring illegals. Is that why unions ran you out of business?

And remember, WE all lost when the bankers and stock guru's fucked up. They (the ceo's), all got golden parachutes.

So you were happy when WE ALL got fucked by them.

You got to remember, you aren't rich enough to be one of them. You are one of us. Even as a business owner, you are an American business owner, and just like we can't compete with foreign slave labor and corporations, neither can you.

And when I think of all the tax breaks the GOP gave corporations. And they still can't make a profit? Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

PS. I don't blame you for being bitter. Divide and concur. No, "we" didn't stick up for you when it was happening to you. We should have.

Tell me more about your situation.

 

[sealybobo]

I drive a Ford Taurus and my husband drives a Ford Focus. Neither one of us have had any major problems. My Taurus is now 11 years old and still running strong. It had 6,000 miles on it when we bought it new. I'm not sure I'd ever buy a car that's not an American brand. BTW, when we bought our Taurus, we had a Japanese exchange student who said her uncle drove a Taurus in Japan.

Great post.

Toyota & Honda may be a little better NOW and may be a little cheaper NOW, but at what cost.

I will never buy foreign either.

Yesterday a union person said it is sad to go to Washington and see all the House of Representative's leaving the parking garage. ALL foreign cars.

 

[sealybobo]

How about cutting the salaries of the CEO's instead of the salaries of the workers? It's time America had a maximum wage as well as a minimum wage, no country can long survive with such a large discrepancy between the rich and the poor. I think it was Plato who said the richest man in the country should never have more than 7 times more than the poorest man in the country.

How these people can suggest that the CEO's earned/deserve $20 million and in the same breath say middle class people shouldn't make $30 hr. is beyond me.

My company is very profitable, even in this bad economy. Will our wages go up when the economy gets better and they double their profits? NO WAY.

As the house slaves put it, "why should I be paid anymore than I'm "worth"?

Isn't that subjective? I think I'm worth a lot more than my boss thinks I'm worth.

According to these conservatives/Republicans, a monkey can do what auto workers can do.

And that proves this person doesn't know what they are saying, because many/most auto workers are beat up after 30 years and deserve what they were promised.

And why would corporations ever pay more when they have house slaves like the people we are arguing with defending the low wages they give now.

Apparently, only their work is worth more, not less. Arrogant selfish and ignorant.

 

[Gem]

Againsheila Wrote:

How about cutting the salaries of the CEO's instead of the salaries of the workers?

If the Big 3 CEOs stated that they would accept salaries of $45,000 per year would that fix these companies?

 

[xsited1]

Great post.

Toyota & Honda may be a little better NOW and may be a little cheaper NOW, but at what cost.

I will never buy foreign either.

Yesterday a union person said it is sad to go to Washington and see all the House of Representative's leaving the parking garage. ALL foreign cars.

My father was in WW-II and fought against the Japanese. Needless to say, he never bought or drove a Japanese made car. That was a different time.

 

[Bern80]

Enough of you dogging the American people/workers. Fucking retard/traitor. Pick one.

The end result with what you propose is your wages will be lowered and you'll fall out of the middle class.

Don't give me that. I AM THE AMERICAN WORKER DIPSHIT. Why should any company be required to pay labor some arbitrary wage the bearucrat says is a reasonable standard of living. Nothing goes up forever, bobo. What is going on with our economy is that the market is trying to reduce the cost of everything, incuding labor, back to where it should be. And morons like you who think bailing the big 3 out is a good idea because we should sacrafice the future for the present are making sure the cost of everything remains high. What goes up must come down bobo, the economy, the dow, the cost of a car, your home value, and the cost of labor can not and should not rise forever to infiniti.

Because you want to play the Since when Game. Since when do we outsource work to slave labor? Since when do we give corporations tax loopholes to send jobs overseas and avoid paying taxes? Since Reagan/Bush, that's when. Things were fine before GW got into office and pushed this agenda, which clearly doesn't work. Not for American workers anyways. The GOP are purposely lowering our wages. They don't believe in having a strong middle class.

We do it because we are in a global economy. That is what changed bobo, not Reagan or Bush getting elected. Technology has reached the point where it became easier to do business and just plain communicate over larger distances. It isn't any different than what happened to the country prior to this. Why do you think they build cars in Detroit? Could it maybe be because it's just a quick jump across the lake to the steel from Pensylvania. Again it's about competitive advantage. Pretend you lived in the early 1900's for a second. What if Ford decided they were going to build cars in Florida? Then you would be complaining about why are we sending jobs all the way down there. The refusal of people like you to adapt is the problem here, bobo.

This is why I say Republicans/Conservatives are all one and the same. Bush is a conservative. He very successfully pushed the conservative agenda. Cut wages and cut social programs that help poor/middle class people.

Say it is much as you like. It doesn't make it any less true you liberal/democrat.

Company A won't be able to sell products in America once the Dems get in control. Or they will, with tariffs.

Which we lead to lessar quality products that cost more because companies don't have to compete and your policies have artifically inflated the market. You rally don't know shit about economics and business do you.

Maybe if companies stopped paying CEO's $20 billion, they'd be more profitable. Maybe if the Government didn't let foreign companies come into America to compete on an uneven playing field, maybe American companies would AGAIN be profitable.

So the answer must be to undo what the GOP did.

Wrong, as always. Competition is a good thing moron. It makes everyone more efficient, it ensures job for the future. Your hatred of Bush and lack of understanding of basic economics makes it so that you can't see much past the nose on your face.

 

[sealybobo]

Againsheila Wrote:

If the Big 3 CEOs stated that they would accept salaries of $45,000 per year would that fix these companies?

It's not just the Big 3 that are struggling, is it?

Why don't we let Fakerosoft come in from China and compete against Microsoft? In china, they can make it cheaper because they don't have to follow copywrite/pattent laws.

And my brother, a VP, tries to say that the CEO's pay is not that big of a deal, but then he has no idea how much it add's up to when you add all the white collar salaries up. VP's, Directors, Managers in Every dept, etc.

He says in business there are only two rules, Rule 1, feed the generals first. Rule 2, never forget rule #1.

If you think the workers are greedy, you should learn more about the CEO's and the people under them. Now there's greed. And they can jockey for more pay, and boy do they. And if one guy gets a raise, everyone at his level cries until they get one too. Has nothing to do with job performance or worth. Or if some VP makes $2 million at Company B, the VP's at company A start crying for that kind of pay.

Why don't these companies cut all of their white collar pay first? Those people make the most money. They'll be able to survive the inflation that the GOP caused. And after all, they are the ones who most likely voted for the GOP.

And yes, Honda's CEO makes a million a year and Ford CEO makes $20 million. That's a huge difference.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Don't give me that. I AM THE AMERICAN WORKER DIPSHIT. Why should any company be required to pay labor some arbitrary wage the bearucrat says is a reasonable standard of living. Nothing goes up forever, bobo. What is going on with our economy is that the market is trying to reduce the cost of everything, incuding labor, back to where it should be. And morons like you who think bailing the big 3 out is a good idea because we should sacrafice the future for the present are making sure the cost of everything remains high. What goes up must come down bobo, the economy, the dow, the cost of a car, your home value, and the cost of labor can not and should not rise forever to infiniti.



We do it because we are in a global economy. That is what changed bobo, not Reagan or Bush getting elected. Technology has reached the point where it became easier to do business and just plain communicate over larger distances. It isn't any different than what happened to the country prior to this. Why do you think they build cars in Detroit? Could it maybe be because it's just a quick jump across the lake to the steel from Pensylvania. Again it's about competitive advantage. Pretend you lived in the early 1900's for a second. What if Ford decided they were going to build cars in Florida? Then you would be complaining about why are we sending jobs all the way down there. The refusal of people like you to adapt is the problem here, bobo.



Say it is much as you like. It doesn't make it any less true you liberal/democrat.



Which we lead to lessar quality products that cost more because companies don't have to compete and your policies have artifically inflated the market. You rally don't know shit about economics and business do you.



Wrong, as always. Competition is a good thing moron. It makes everyone more efficient, it ensures job for the future. Your hatred of Bush and lack of understanding of basic economics makes it so that you can't see much past the nose on your face.

This is the truth ladies and gentlemen.

 

[sealybobo]

Which we lead to lessar quality products that cost more because companies don't have to compete and your policies have artifically inflated the market. You rally don't know shit about economics and business do you.



Wrong, as always. Competition is a good thing moron. It makes everyone more efficient, it ensures job for the future. Your hatred of Bush and lack of understanding of basic economics makes it so that you can't see much past the nose on your face.

Boo freakin hoo. And have you seen products from China lately? Who makes a shitty product that will kill your kids and pets? Fucking brainwashed houseslave conservative.

Unfair competition is not good. Not for America.

I find it funny that you, a conservative, has the balls to suggest right and wrong after the last 8 years.

 

[sealybobo]

This is the truth ladies and gentlemen.

What she is saying has some truth in it. But they are using those facts to send jobs overseas.

What do you do for a living? Why pay you when we can get a Mexican/Chinese/Indian/African/European to do it for less.

And there goes the American Middle class.

The Middle class was not created by capitalism or free markets. It was the government that created the middle class we have today. It was the Unions. It was labor laws. It was protectionism.

Yes it's a global market/economy now, but we have gone too far. Other countries protect certain industries that are vital to their economies. Ours is Auto manufacturing. And you are pissing your future away!!!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

What she is saying has some truth in it. But they are using those facts to send jobs overseas.

What do you do for a living? Why pay you when we can get a Mexican/Chinese/Indian/African/European to do it for less.

And there goes the American Middle class.

The Middle class was not created by capitalism or free markets. It was the government that created the middle class we have today. It was the Unions. It was labor laws. It was protectionism.

Yes it's a global market/economy now, but we have gone too far. Other countries protect certain industries that are vital to their economies. Ours is Auto manufacturing. And you are pissing your future away!!!

I have decided that arguing economics with you is a waste of my time and energy. You don't understand the subject so the facts are lost on you.

 

[sealybobo]

I have decided that arguing economics with you is a waste of my time and energy. You don't understand the subject so the facts are lost on you.

I understand economics. Send jobs that pay $30hr here to countries that pay $5 a day.

Makes perfect sense, to companies and ceo's.

But I assure you it will hurt you in the long run, unless you are in the top 1%.

Will things naturally turn around and will American workers gain back what we lost? Not without another revolution/Jimmy Hoffa type movement it won't. But we will still let you join when you finally wake up.

 

[auditor0007]

What is wrong with people? Why are we arguing in favor of lower wages? Are we jealous that people working for the Big 3 make $30 hr? Don’t we realize that our wages are where they are because the Unions brought them up? And many of you don’t even realize that you’re lives are impacted by the Big 3’s success. Too many people are in favor of letting the Big 3 fail. That can only mean most of you don’t get it. Just like you don’t get that the bank bailout was just a bank robbery. Bush didn’t empty the treasury enough in 7 years. He had to steal $750 billion more.

Now is not the time to get tight with the dollar, or to get tough with corporate CEO’s. If you are going to do that, do that to the bankers. They only got about $250 billion of the $750 billion. Let’s loan the $50 billion the Big 3 want from the $750 billion. Let’s make the banks loan the Big 3 that money. All of our jobs are tied to the Big 3, whether we know it or not.

Why are we allowing Corporate America to send jobs overseas and ship the products back to sell to us? If we aren’t good enough to make the products, we shouldn’t buy the products. Not in every case, but Corporate America/The GOP went too far. Yes Clinton signed NAFTA but Bush/Delay/The GOP took it too far.

I just don’t get why people applaud Honda and Toyota for paying their employees $15 hr. Are any of you raising a family on $15 hr?

It is not a given that America will always have a strong/big middle class. Our government and tax system created the middle class we had from the 50’s to the 90’s. And Bushanomics is tearing us apart. If we keep doing what we are doing now, we’ll have a small rich class, small merchantile middle class, and a huge working poor population. That’s why our founding fathers left England.

Wait until the market is flooded with people who can do your jobs. How much do you think you will be worth then? All the people who are losing their jobs are going back to be retrained as nursing, engineer and IT Professional. GREAT! Now corporate America will be able to lower their worth next.

This is an assault on the middle class, and most of you don’t even know it yet.

First off; you are correct that unions helped raise wages for all Americans. That being said, some unions went too far. The fact is that there was a time when American car companies were making good money. GM specifically, gave away the house to the unions when times were good, not thinking about the long term.

When you talk about pay rates, you compare workers pay rates by saying those who work for American companies make $30 per hour while those who work for the foreign companies make $15 per hour. Why do you try to mislead people. The average worker for the American companies is making over $30, while those at the foreign companies are making a little bit less, at just over $25 per hour.

What is killing the American companies is the long term cost of health care. The foreign companies haven't been here as long and they make their employees pay a substantial share of their own health care costs, where workers for the American companies are getting a free pass. At GM, the average hourly rate comes to $73 per hour after benefits for current and retired workers is taken into account. The foreign companies are paying around $45 per hour including all benefits.

The Big 3 all need a complete restructuring, and both pension and health care benefits need to be reduced if there is to be any long term survival. If there is no restructuring of benefits, it won't matter how much bail out money they receive, because they will not survive.

As for the $750 billion bailout; from an economic viewpoint, there was no alternative. There should be, however, very strict oversight of how this money is used. As of this point, that part of the equation is definitely questionable. However, letting it all collapse would almost certainly have led to 20% unemployment and a real depression. The end result would almost certainly have been an eventual government takeover of the entire banking industry as most every bank out there would have gone under.

Business must be able to borrow in order to operate. There are very few businesses that can even hold their own on cash reserves alone. While nobody is happy about the bailout, there just was no other choice.

 

[RodISHI]

Some of what you say makes sense and some of what you say makes you sound bitter. And I think I would need to hear more specifics before I could comment on your personal situation.

I know a lot of business owners who are hiring illegals. Is that why unions ran you out of business?

And remember, WE all lost when the bankers and stock guru's fucked up. They (the ceo's), all got golden parachutes.

So you were happy when WE ALL got fucked by them.

You got to remember, you aren't rich enough to be one of them. You are one of us. Even as a business owner, you are an American business owner, and just like we can't compete with foreign slave labor and corporations, neither can you.

And when I think of all the tax breaks the GOP gave corporations. And they still can't make a profit? Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

PS. I don't blame you for being bitter. Divide and concur. No, "we" didn't stick up for you when it was happening to you. We should have.

Tell me more about your situation.

Have never hired illegal aliens. pisses me off whenever I see one taking a job from an American worker too. it is not because they do not deserve to feed their families either. It is because they are illegal workers and the people that hire them should be in jail.

I agree US companies cannot compete on a global scale against countries who enslave their people but the US is doing the same by letting the thugs over run the country. That is DEM and REP thugs. Nor is either party exempt there. Nor has either party protected the people for whom they are accountable too.


Actually I am a bit happy. Not to the extent that people have lost entire retirement funds but to the extent that I see it as a wakeup call. How many will actually look at it for the truth that it is? I doubt very many because so many are indoctrinated into believing they are secure and they like being slaves. Sometimes it must get pretty bad before people will look at the truth that is there to be seen.

Many bankers/insurance/credit/their lawyers/real estate/politicians/wall street guru's and such people belong in jail for fraud. It is that simple because they are all complicit in the current proclaimed market situation and most have been complicit in the fraud. The least we could hope for is stripping back from the leaders/CEO's of these companies the funds that they raided from the people.


No time for sticking up like the present as I get ready to take it to the federal courts and ask that the whole case be reinstated to include the ones that I did not have proof or knowledge of that were involved while they were raiding my home, the ones who intended on stealing real property and forcing others to give up private property by, "have gun will travel' (our local law enforcement). So what do you have to offer?