Zone1 What does it mean to be someone who thinks independently?

[forkup]

I come across a lot of people on this board who claim they are independent thinkers. So I figured it might be helpful to state what it means to me, because most if not all people who make this claim are dead wrong in my opinion.

My first caveat is this. Deciding for yourself, does not automatically mean you're right in your opinion. I would think this speaks for itself but I've noticed that most "independent thinkers" think their opinions are infallible. They aren't. If you don't confuse your opinion with stated fact you've taken the first major step on the road to truth.

So now how do we start making up our own mind? In my view you do so by collecting the best information available. So far nothing earth shattering I think.

The problem lays in deciding what the best available information is. To me the best information available is information that is as close to the original source of that information as possible, with the least possible outside opinion contaminating it. What do I mean by that? If you want to know what somebody said listen to that person saying it if possible. Of you can't, reading direct quotes is much better than reading the recap of another source. If you want to know about charges leveled at someone. Read the indictment, instead of relying on other people's opinion of that indictment. Etc. etc.

This poses a big problem to the "independent thinkers" on this board I've noticed. For most it seems that they select their sources BECAUSE of their bias, instead of DESPITE of it.

Which brings me to personal habits. If you want to truly make up your own mind, the thing to do is be very skeptical when your perceived opinion is in line with what you consider to be true after researching it. This is to avoid conformation bias. You have to make an honest effort to question the rationality of yourself in order to truly think independently. This is probably the hardest thing any person can do. It's also the most important thing to do if you truly want to make up your own mind.


I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

 

[pknopp]

Yours is a vast generalization. It's hard to take much of anything from that. You claim people do something but it's only a claim.

 

[forkup]

Yours is a vast generalization. It's hard to take much of anything from that. You claim people do something but it's only a claim.

I made it general precisely because I didn't want to target a specific ideology. If you want I can give examples but chances are it would derail the OP.

This is an attempt to set out some general rules to facilitate an open discussion. Targeting individuals entrenches the sides.

 

[Harry Dresden]

to me it means you dont give a dam what the 2 parties think.....

 

[forkup]

I come across a lot of people on this board who claim they are independent thinkers. So I figured it might be helpful to state what it means to me, because most if not all people who make this claim are dead wrong in my opinion.

My first caveat is this. Deciding for yourself, does not automatically mean you're right in your opinion. I would think this speaks for itself but I've noticed that most "independent thinkers" think their opinions are infallible. They aren't. If you don't confuse your opinion with stated fact you've taken the first major step on the road to truth.

So now how do we start making up our own mind? In my view you do so by collecting the best information available. So far nothing earth shattering I think.

The problem lays in deciding what the best available information is. To me the best information available is information that is as close to the original source of that information as possible, with the least possible outside opinion contaminating it. What do I mean by that? If you want to know what somebody said listen to that person saying it if possible. Of you can't, reading direct quotes is much better than reading the recap of another source. If you want to know about charges leveled at someone. Read the indictment, instead of relying on other people's opinion of that indictment. Etc. etc.

This poses a big problem to the "independent thinkers" on this board I've noticed. For most it seems that they select their sources BECAUSE of their bias, instead of DESPITE of it.

Which brings me to personal habits. If you want to truly make up your own mind, the thing to do is be very skeptical when your perceived opinion is in line with what you consider to be true after researching it. This is to avoid conformation bias. You have to make an honest effort to question the rationality of yourself in order to truly think independently. This is probably the hardest thing any person can do. It's also the most important thing to do if you truly want to make up your own mind.


I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

I'm gonna do something here you'll probably find weird. I just did a search about the amount of people that actually used a gun to prevent burglary. Now I just said that the government should try to help the most amount of people. I found that statistically it is more likely to stop a crime by owning a gun then it is to be used in a crime. So in light of this I find my objection to handguns in the house untennable. I still have strong objections to asault rifles because they are excessive but I'm someone who tries to be honest even when honest means I have to admit I'm wrong. I'll provide a link with the article.Private Guns Stop Crime 2.5M Times A Year In US

Since an example was asked for and I don't want to single anyone out this is me informing myself and practicing what I preach.

 

[rampart]

I come across a lot of people on this board who claim they are independent thinkers. So I figured it might be helpful to state what it means to me, because most if not all people who make this claim are dead wrong in my opinion.

My first caveat is this. Deciding for yourself, does not automatically mean you're right in your opinion. I would think this speaks for itself but I've noticed that most "independent thinkers" think their opinions are infallible. They aren't. If you don't confuse your opinion with stated fact you've taken the first major step on the road to truth.

So now how do we start making up our own mind? In my view you do so by collecting the best information available. So far nothing earth shattering I think.

The problem lays in deciding what the best available information is. To me the best information available is information that is as close to the original source of that information as possible, with the least possible outside opinion contaminating it. What do I mean by that? If you want to know what somebody said listen to that person saying it if possible. Of you can't, reading direct quotes is much better than reading the recap of another source. If you want to know about charges leveled at someone. Read the indictment, instead of relying on other people's opinion of that indictment. Etc. etc.

This poses a big problem to the "independent thinkers" on this board I've noticed. For most it seems that they select their sources BECAUSE of their bias, instead of DESPITE of it.

Which brings me to personal habits. If you want to truly make up your own mind, the thing to do is be very skeptical when your perceived opinion is in line with what you consider to be true after researching it. This is to avoid conformation bias. You have to make an honest effort to question the rationality of yourself in order to truly think independently. This is probably the hardest thing any person can do. It's also the most important thing to do if you truly want to make up your own mind.


I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

another great op this morning.

there is more to "doing your own research" than listening to the rogan podcast,

 

[forkup]

another great op this morning.

there is more to "doing your own research" than listening to the rogan podcast,

"Doing your own research" on this board almost invariably means, looking for sources that confirm a particular bias and actively ignoring those sources that don't.

It's like a scientist coming up with a hypothesis. And then making it a point to ignore all data that disproves it in favor of the data that supports it. Any scientist would be accused of fudging their research and lose all credibility.

Here " doing your own research" is a euphemism for looking REALLY hard on the internet for anything that can help your narrative.

 

[pknopp]

"Doing your own research" on this board almost invariably means, looking for sources that confirm a particular bias and actively ignoring those sources that don't.

If you are arguing this is what most people do, as a generalization I agree.

It's like a scientist coming up with a hypothesis. And then making it a point to ignore all data that disproves it in favor of the data that supports it. Any scientist would be accused of fudging their research and lose all credibility.

Here " doing your own research" is a euphemism for looking REALLY hard on the internet for anything that can help your narrative.

Generally true.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I'd say the propensity towards individualism is inversely proportional to people's use of the term "we".

Some posters announce their membership in a hive mid so frequently, it is rather hard to ignore.

 

[luiza]

I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

Cutting through the blather , I suggest there are two guiding principles :-

1.Follow the scientific process where the material under consideration is amenable to that sort of analysis .

2.Follow the Bradford Hill Criteria where you need to show causation from correlation and coincidence .
Because so few lay people are aware of the BH criteria , see the following areas for determining causes from observed effects .
Strength
Consistency
Specificity
Temporality
Biological gradient ( dose-response relationship in treatments , for example )
Plausibility
Coherence
Experiment
Analogy
Reversability
Of course causation can be inferred from correlation at a defined level of mathematical confidence ( usually 95% ) and following mathematic principles , not just arbitrary opinion .
Start posting when following these two principles and it will only be a short time before you will be asked to sit on Think Tank boards and become behind the scenes advisers to the criminal class .

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Cutting through the blather , I suggest there are two guiding principles :-

1.Follow the scientific process where the material under consideration is amenable to that sort of analysis .

2.Follow the Bradford Hill Criteria where you need to show causation from correlation and coincidence .
Because so few lay people are aware of the BH criteria , see the following areas for determining causes from observed effects .
Strength
Consistency
Specificity
Temporality
Biological gradient ( dose-response relationship in treatments , for example )
Plausibility
Coherence
Experiment
Analogy
Reversability
Of course causation can be inferred from correlation at a defined level of mathematical confidence ( usually 95% ) and following mathematic principles , not just arbitrary opinion .
Start posting when following these two principles and it will only be a short time before you will be asked to sit on Think Tank boards and become behind the scenes advisers to the criminal class .

Ah - so THAT'S why you refer to terrorists that rape women to death as "freedom fighters".

 

[jwoodie]

I come across a lot of people on this board who claim they are independent thinkers. So I figured it might be helpful to state what it means to me, because most if not all people who make this claim are dead wrong in my opinion.

My first caveat is this. Deciding for yourself, does not automatically mean you're right in your opinion. I would think this speaks for itself but I've noticed that most "independent thinkers" think their opinions are infallible. They aren't. If you don't confuse your opinion with stated fact you've taken the first major step on the road to truth.

So now how do we start making up our own mind? In my view you do so by collecting the best information available. So far nothing earth shattering I think.

The problem lays in deciding what the best available information is. To me the best information available is information that is as close to the original source of that information as possible, with the least possible outside opinion contaminating it. What do I mean by that? If you want to know what somebody said listen to that person saying it if possible. Of you can't, reading direct quotes is much better than reading the recap of another source. If you want to know about charges leveled at someone. Read the indictment, instead of relying on other people's opinion of that indictment. Etc. etc.

This poses a big problem to the "independent thinkers" on this board I've noticed. For most it seems that they select their sources BECAUSE of their bias, instead of DESPITE of it.

Which brings me to personal habits. If you want to truly make up your own mind, the thing to do is be very skeptical when your perceived opinion is in line with what you consider to be true after researching it. This is to avoid conformation bias. You have to make an honest effort to question the rationality of yourself in order to truly think independently. This is probably the hardest thing any person can do. It's also the most important thing to do if you truly want to make up your own mind.


I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

You seem to be focusing more on "independent" than "thought." We are all dependent on outside sources for facts, but the analysis of those facts should be based on personal logical evaluation. It is almost always a mistake to think that the actions of others are irrational. If nothing else, they are generally serving their own priorities.

 

[Gondophares]

I come across a lot of people on this board who claim they are independent thinkers. So I figured it might be helpful to state what it means to me, because most if not all people who make this claim are dead wrong in my opinion.

My first caveat is this. Deciding for yourself, does not automatically mean you're right in your opinion. I would think this speaks for itself but I've noticed that most "independent thinkers" think their opinions are infallible. They aren't. If you don't confuse your opinion with stated fact you've taken the first major step on the road to truth.

So now how do we start making up our own mind? In my view you do so by collecting the best information available. So far nothing earth shattering I think.

The problem lays in deciding what the best available information is. To me the best information available is information that is as close to the original source of that information as possible, with the least possible outside opinion contaminating it. What do I mean by that? If you want to know what somebody said listen to that person saying it if possible. Of you can't, reading direct quotes is much better than reading the recap of another source. If you want to know about charges leveled at someone. Read the indictment, instead of relying on other people's opinion of that indictment. Etc. etc.

This poses a big problem to the "independent thinkers" on this board I've noticed. For most it seems that they select their sources BECAUSE of their bias, instead of DESPITE of it.

Which brings me to personal habits. If you want to truly make up your own mind, the thing to do is be very skeptical when your perceived opinion is in line with what you consider to be true after researching it. This is to avoid conformation bias. You have to make an honest effort to question the rationality of yourself in order to truly think independently. This is probably the hardest thing any person can do. It's also the most important thing to do if you truly want to make up your own mind.


I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

No one can truly think “independently” as human beings are designed to worship something or someone and will model their beliefs over that followed belief system.

 

[Curried Goats]

I come across a lot of people on this board who claim they are independent thinkers. So I figured it might be helpful to state what it means to me, because most if not all people who make this claim are dead wrong in my opinion.

My first caveat is this. Deciding for yourself, does not automatically mean you're right in your opinion. I would think this speaks for itself but I've noticed that most "independent thinkers" think their opinions are infallible. They aren't. If you don't confuse your opinion with stated fact you've taken the first major step on the road to truth.

So now how do we start making up our own mind? In my view you do so by collecting the best information available. So far nothing earth shattering I think.

The problem lays in deciding what the best available information is. To me the best information available is information that is as close to the original source of that information as possible, with the least possible outside opinion contaminating it. What do I mean by that? If you want to know what somebody said listen to that person saying it if possible. Of you can't, reading direct quotes is much better than reading the recap of another source. If you want to know about charges leveled at someone. Read the indictment, instead of relying on other people's opinion of that indictment. Etc. etc.

This poses a big problem to the "independent thinkers" on this board I've noticed. For most it seems that they select their sources BECAUSE of their bias, instead of DESPITE of it.

Which brings me to personal habits. If you want to truly make up your own mind, the thing to do is be very skeptical when your perceived opinion is in line with what you consider to be true after researching it. This is to avoid conformation bias. You have to make an honest effort to question the rationality of yourself in order to truly think independently. This is probably the hardest thing any person can do. It's also the most important thing to do if you truly want to make up your own mind.


I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

Everyone's an independent thinker. Our thoughts are the results of our independent biological functions. The question is does everyone have an equal capability for critical thought. The answer to that is obviously no. For those us like me who are undoubtedly magnificent at it isn't hard at all just as it isn't hard for a cheetah to run fast or an elephant to pick up trees with its trunk. It comes naturally to us. It's the Bingos it's hard for.

 

[rampart]

Everyone's an independent thinker. Our thoughts are the results of our independent biological functions. The question is does everyone have an equal capability for critical thought. The answer to that is obviously no. For those us like me who are undoubtedly magnificent at it isn't hard at all just as it isn't hard for a cheetah to run fast or an elephant to pick up trees with its trunk. It comes naturally to us. It's the Bingos it's hard for.

:magnificent might be a stretch, but in my short time here i might go "impressive."

thanks for another great thread.

 

[alang1216]

I come across a lot of people on this board who claim they are independent thinkers. So I figured it might be helpful to state what it means to me, because most if not all people who make this claim are dead wrong in my opinion.

My first caveat is this. Deciding for yourself, does not automatically mean you're right in your opinion. I would think this speaks for itself but I've noticed that most "independent thinkers" think their opinions are infallible. They aren't. If you don't confuse your opinion with stated fact you've taken the first major step on the road to truth.

So now how do we start making up our own mind? In my view you do so by collecting the best information available. So far nothing earth shattering I think.

The problem lays in deciding what the best available information is. To me the best information available is information that is as close to the original source of that information as possible, with the least possible outside opinion contaminating it. What do I mean by that? If you want to know what somebody said listen to that person saying it if possible. Of you can't, reading direct quotes is much better than reading the recap of another source. If you want to know about charges leveled at someone. Read the indictment, instead of relying on other people's opinion of that indictment. Etc. etc.

This poses a big problem to the "independent thinkers" on this board I've noticed. For most it seems that they select their sources BECAUSE of their bias, instead of DESPITE of it.

Which brings me to personal habits. If you want to truly make up your own mind, the thing to do is be very skeptical when your perceived opinion is in line with what you consider to be true after researching it. This is to avoid conformation bias. You have to make an honest effort to question the rationality of yourself in order to truly think independently. This is probably the hardest thing any person can do. It's also the most important thing to do if you truly want to make up your own mind.


I welcome any comment on this post. And I would truly love any discussion on any topic following these guidelines of independent thought.

Every source of information is biased to some degree. I get a lot of my information from Left-leaning NPR but they are hardly perfect. I try to make an effort to mix in some Fox News and other Right-leaning sources. I consider these sources as lawyers in a courtroom offering different versions of the same news and I, as the jury, have to decide which side has the better case. I find USMB very useful as a portal to other, often more extreme, Right-wing versions.

To keep my sanity, I walk weekly with a conservative, evangelical, West Point graduate and we hash out our views and values. It is surprising how much we actually agree on.

 

[sartre play]

Impossible to be completely open minded, We all have a lean.
And the ability to research has become Very MUCH reduced, and replaced with political propaganda.

 

[forkup]

You seem to be focusing more on "independent" than "thought." We are all dependent on outside sources for facts, but the analysis of those facts should be based on personal logical evaluation. It is almost always a mistake to think that the actions of others are irrational. If nothing else, they are generally serving their own priorities.

Yes and no, I think.

Yes, analysis of fact is personal and as such colored by personal bias. Something that can only be overcome by a strenuous effort, and even after that it's still imperfect.

No, I don't think that rational thinking even rational in service of personal priorities should be presumed for a lot of people. It's kind of the premise of the OP that for a lot of people on here, rational thinking has taken a back seat to partisanship to the point of rejecting the very idea logical evaluation.

The moment a person actively chooses to avoid looking at facts because facts are considered uncomfortable. That person no longer acts rational.

 

[forkup]

Impossible to be completely open minded, We all have a lean.
And the ability to research has become Very MUCH reduced, and replaced with political propaganda.

In the OP you will notice that I acknowledge the existence of personal bias and the difficulty of overcoming it.

I do however think that doing both those things gives you a distinct advantage in getting as close to being open-minded as is possible.

 

[PeterPilot]

An independent thinker is one who does not follow the crowd, and today does not follow the mainstream media. He informs himself as best he can, and avoids the propaganda that drives the herd.