What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[Foxfyre]

I didn't question Brody's credentials. But where is his testimony that he has compared VA hospitals and care against other hospitals and other medical services and rates VA hospitals to be as good or superior to the others?

As usual Bfgrn, you seem to be incapable of articulating a point of view but depend on something you find on the internet that you hope makes your case for you. And THAT should embarrass you.

OH, so know you want to change YOUR terms. You are being owned as usual, so you have to make it about something else.

Let's get back to YOUR ignorance.

And now let's look at costs. When you can show me that running the VA and Medicare program is more cost efficient than is private healhcare, get back to me.

Nice try but no cigar. Your chart, assuming you can make a case that it is based on any kind of real data, addresses insurance costs, not actual costs. You see I've worked in the system for enough years to see how it works. And trust me, there is NOTHING the government is involved in that is more cost effective than anything in the private sector.

 

[Bfgrn]

I didn't question Brody's credentials. But where is his testimony that he has compared VA hospitals and care against other hospitals and other medical services and rates VA hospitals to be as good or superior to the others?

As usual Bfgrn, you seem to be incapable of articulating a point of view but depend on something you find on the internet that you hope makes your case for you. And THAT should embarrass you.

OH, so know you want to change YOUR terms. You are being owned as usual, so you have to make it about something else.

Let's get back to YOUR ignorance.

And now let's look at costs. When you can show me that running the VA and Medicare program is more cost efficient than is private healhcare, get back to me.

Nice try but no cigar. Your chart, assuming you can make a case that it is based on any kind of real data, addresses insurance costs, not actual costs. You see I've worked in the system for enough years to see how it works. And trust me, there is NOTHING the government is involved in that is more cost effective than anything in the private sector.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

You see, here is where your true ignorance is exposed. Medicare and private insurance companies use the SAME care providers. The SAME doctors, the SAME hospitals. But Medicare does it more efficiently than for profit cartels.

Medicare operates as a single-payer health care system with administrative costs of just 4 percent to 6 percent compared with for-profit health insurance administrative costs of between 16 percent and 26.5 percent. In a "Medicare for All" program, administrative savings would amount to about $400 billion each year by eliminating unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracy. That's enough to provide high-quality health care for every American and end co-pays and deductibles. Americans could go to any provider they wished to see. And, as with Medicare, the majority of health providers and hospitals would remain private and could receive fair reimbursements for their services.

AND, not only is Medicare MUCH more cost efficient, Medicare treats the elderly exclusively, and since they typically have more health problems than the general population, comparing costs per beneficiary is misleading and therefore percentage comparisons are more reliable.

Universal vs. Private Health Insurance

There is one factor common to the top 15 countries on the above list. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.


Our private insurance industry was in no hurry to insure seniors before Medicare started. They are in no hurry now. Medicare revolutionized health care access for seniors.

Why is Medicare expensive? Simply, health care for seniors will always cost more than that of healthier, younger Americans. And costs are rising in every health care system around the world, not just Medicare. The United States is doubly cursed because our costs are rising faster and are already twice as expensive as other countries. Though hard to believe, Medicare is a leader in fighting cost increases. Private insurance industry costs are rising nearly twice as fast as those of Medicare. And when it comes to administrative expenses, private insurance is 10 times higher than Medicare. In fact, if the single payer financing of Medicare were applied to citizens of all ages, we would save $350 billion annually, more than enough to provide comprehensive health care to every American.

Medicare is good for our seniors and good for our country. It provides health care far more affordably and efficiently than our private insurance industry. It saves our country hundreds of billions of dollars in administrative overhead. And if we expand Medicare to cover younger, healthier Americans, we would all get more care at less cost.

Medicare: Celebrate it, protect it, improve it, and expand it. We need more Medicare, not less.

Portland physician Samuel Metz is a member of Physicians for a National Health Program and a founding member of Mad As Hell Doctors.

 

[Foxfyre]

OH, so know you want to change YOUR terms. You are being owned as usual, so you have to make it about something else.

Let's get back to YOUR ignorance.

Nice try but no cigar. Your chart, assuming you can make a case that it is based on any kind of real data, addresses insurance costs, not actual costs. You see I've worked in the system for enough years to see how it works. And trust me, there is NOTHING the government is involved in that is more cost effective than anything in the private sector.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

You see, here is where your true ignorance is exposed. Medicare and private insurance companies use the SAME care providers. The SAME doctors, the SAME hospitals. But Medicare does it more efficiently than for profit cartels.

Medicare operates as a single-payer health care system with administrative costs of just 4 percent to 6 percent compared with for-profit health insurance administrative costs of between 16 percent and 26.5 percent. In a "Medicare for All" program, administrative savings would amount to about $400 billion each year by eliminating unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracy. That's enough to provide high-quality health care for every American and end co-pays and deductibles. Americans could go to any provider they wished to see. And, as with Medicare, the majority of health providers and hospitals would remain private and could receive fair reimbursements for their services.

AND, not only is Medicare MUCH more cost efficient, Medicare treats the elderly exclusively, and since they typically have more health problems than the general population, comparing costs per beneficiary is misleading and therefore percentage comparisons are more reliable.

Universal vs. Private Health Insurance

There is one factor common to the top 15 countries on the above list. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.


Our private insurance industry was in no hurry to insure seniors before Medicare started. They are in no hurry now. Medicare revolutionized health care access for seniors.

Why is Medicare expensive? Simply, health care for seniors will always cost more than that of healthier, younger Americans. And costs are rising in every health care system around the world, not just Medicare. The United States is doubly cursed because our costs are rising faster and are already twice as expensive as other countries. Though hard to believe, Medicare is a leader in fighting cost increases. Private insurance industry costs are rising nearly twice as fast as those of Medicare. And when it comes to administrative expenses, private insurance is 10 times higher than Medicare. In fact, if the single payer financing of Medicare were applied to citizens of all ages, we would save $350 billion annually, more than enough to provide comprehensive health care to every American.

Medicare is good for our seniors and good for our country. It provides health care far more affordably and efficiently than our private insurance industry. It saves our country hundreds of billions of dollars in administrative overhead. And if we expand Medicare to cover younger, healthier Americans, we would all get more care at less cost.

Medicare: Celebrate it, protect it, improve it, and expand it. We need more Medicare, not less.

Portland physician Samuel Metz is a member of Physicians for a National Health Program and a founding member of Mad As Hell Doctors.

And not a word you posted in this screed speaks to the specific issue I was discussing which is that the government is not providing healthcare to seniors or anybody else, nor is the government providing anything to anybody, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. When the government gets involved in anything, it will cost more.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

When the government gets involved in anything, it will cost more.

this is so true!! A liberal can point to the VA now but it wasn't always efficient. Similiarly, they will point out a European country when it is having a run of good luck, like Germany now, but on balance Europe has only 70% of our per capita income and that is when we invent 80% of all medical innovations, for example. Without us to copy they would have 50% of our GDP thanks to goofy liberalism.

To be successful over the long run you need consumers shopping with their own money because then they will always and forever be vigilant, and, you need providers with published prices locked in life and death competition.

A liberal will simply lack the IQ to understand this.

 

[Bfgrn]

Nice try but no cigar. Your chart, assuming you can make a case that it is based on any kind of real data, addresses insurance costs, not actual costs. You see I've worked in the system for enough years to see how it works. And trust me, there is NOTHING the government is involved in that is more cost effective than anything in the private sector.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

You see, here is where your true ignorance is exposed. Medicare and private insurance companies use the SAME care providers. The SAME doctors, the SAME hospitals. But Medicare does it more efficiently than for profit cartels.

Medicare operates as a single-payer health care system with administrative costs of just 4 percent to 6 percent compared with for-profit health insurance administrative costs of between 16 percent and 26.5 percent. In a "Medicare for All" program, administrative savings would amount to about $400 billion each year by eliminating unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracy. That's enough to provide high-quality health care for every American and end co-pays and deductibles. Americans could go to any provider they wished to see. And, as with Medicare, the majority of health providers and hospitals would remain private and could receive fair reimbursements for their services.

AND, not only is Medicare MUCH more cost efficient, Medicare treats the elderly exclusively, and since they typically have more health problems than the general population, comparing costs per beneficiary is misleading and therefore percentage comparisons are more reliable.

Universal vs. Private Health Insurance

There is one factor common to the top 15 countries on the above list. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.


Our private insurance industry was in no hurry to insure seniors before Medicare started. They are in no hurry now. Medicare revolutionized health care access for seniors.

Why is Medicare expensive? Simply, health care for seniors will always cost more than that of healthier, younger Americans. And costs are rising in every health care system around the world, not just Medicare. The United States is doubly cursed because our costs are rising faster and are already twice as expensive as other countries. Though hard to believe, Medicare is a leader in fighting cost increases. Private insurance industry costs are rising nearly twice as fast as those of Medicare. And when it comes to administrative expenses, private insurance is 10 times higher than Medicare. In fact, if the single payer financing of Medicare were applied to citizens of all ages, we would save $350 billion annually, more than enough to provide comprehensive health care to every American.

Medicare is good for our seniors and good for our country. It provides health care far more affordably and efficiently than our private insurance industry. It saves our country hundreds of billions of dollars in administrative overhead. And if we expand Medicare to cover younger, healthier Americans, we would all get more care at less cost.

Medicare: Celebrate it, protect it, improve it, and expand it. We need more Medicare, not less.

Portland physician Samuel Metz is a member of Physicians for a National Health Program and a founding member of Mad As Hell Doctors.

And not a word you posted in this screed speaks to the specific issue I was discussing which is that the government is not providing healthcare to seniors or anybody else, nor is the government providing anything to anybody, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. When the government gets involved in anything, it will cost more.

WOW. you really are an ignorant one aren't you??? I just PROVED beyond a doubt with numerous sources that government IS providing health care, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. AND...by a wide margin. WTF is wrong with your brain?

If you are so fascinated with the anecdotal, read THIS. Then tell me why it is acceptable in this country Foxfyre. I want to hear you justify the premature and preventable death of fellow Americans. The first 50 year old woman in the story is probably dead from something that could have been prevented.


Health reform's human stories

New Orleans, La. — — It happened as I watched a 50-something woman walk out, after spending several hours being attended to by volunteer doctors. "She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances," the doctor tells us as she heads for the next patient. The president of the board of the National Association of Free Health Clinics tells me why: "It's stage four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher, and her chances for an earlier diagnosis and treatment would have been far greater.

After watching for hours as the patients moved through the clinic, it was hard to believe that I was in America.

Eighty-three percent of the patients they see are employed, they are not accepting other government help on a large scale, not "welfare queens" as some would like to have us believe. They are tax-paying, good, upstanding citizens who are trying to make it and give their kids a better life just like you and me.

Ninety percent of the patients who came through Saturday's clinic had two or more diagnoses.

Eighty-two percent had a life-threatening condition such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hypertension. They are victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women.

We have all made mistakes. But Dante tells us that divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales. Better the occasional faults of a party living in the spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a party frozen in the ice of its own indifference.
President John F. Kennedy

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

"It's stage four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher,

so why not make liberalism illegal so we can have capitalist health care that everyone can afford? Did the fool liberal notice that when China switched to capitalism everyone could almost instantly afford everything?

 

[Foxfyre]

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

You see, here is where your true ignorance is exposed. Medicare and private insurance companies use the SAME care providers. The SAME doctors, the SAME hospitals. But Medicare does it more efficiently than for profit cartels.

Medicare operates as a single-payer health care system with administrative costs of just 4 percent to 6 percent compared with for-profit health insurance administrative costs of between 16 percent and 26.5 percent. In a "Medicare for All" program, administrative savings would amount to about $400 billion each year by eliminating unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracy. That's enough to provide high-quality health care for every American and end co-pays and deductibles. Americans could go to any provider they wished to see. And, as with Medicare, the majority of health providers and hospitals would remain private and could receive fair reimbursements for their services.

AND, not only is Medicare MUCH more cost efficient, Medicare treats the elderly exclusively, and since they typically have more health problems than the general population, comparing costs per beneficiary is misleading and therefore percentage comparisons are more reliable.

Universal vs. Private Health Insurance

There is one factor common to the top 15 countries on the above list. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.


Our private insurance industry was in no hurry to insure seniors before Medicare started. They are in no hurry now. Medicare revolutionized health care access for seniors.

Why is Medicare expensive? Simply, health care for seniors will always cost more than that of healthier, younger Americans. And costs are rising in every health care system around the world, not just Medicare. The United States is doubly cursed because our costs are rising faster and are already twice as expensive as other countries. Though hard to believe, Medicare is a leader in fighting cost increases. Private insurance industry costs are rising nearly twice as fast as those of Medicare. And when it comes to administrative expenses, private insurance is 10 times higher than Medicare. In fact, if the single payer financing of Medicare were applied to citizens of all ages, we would save $350 billion annually, more than enough to provide comprehensive health care to every American.

Medicare is good for our seniors and good for our country. It provides health care far more affordably and efficiently than our private insurance industry. It saves our country hundreds of billions of dollars in administrative overhead. And if we expand Medicare to cover younger, healthier Americans, we would all get more care at less cost.

Medicare: Celebrate it, protect it, improve it, and expand it. We need more Medicare, not less.

Portland physician Samuel Metz is a member of Physicians for a National Health Program and a founding member of Mad As Hell Doctors.

And not a word you posted in this screed speaks to the specific issue I was discussing which is that the government is not providing healthcare to seniors or anybody else, nor is the government providing anything to anybody, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. When the government gets involved in anything, it will cost more.

WOW. you really are an ignorant one aren't you??? I just PROVED beyond a doubt with numerous sources that government IS providing health care, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. AND...by a wide margin. WTF is wrong with your brain?

If you are so fascinated with the anecdotal, read THIS. Then tell me why it is acceptable in this country Foxfyre. I want to hear you justify the premature and preventable death of fellow Americans. The first 50 year old woman in the story is probably dead from something that could have been prevented.


Health reform's human stories

New Orleans, La. — — It happened as I watched a 50-something woman walk out, after spending several hours being attended to by volunteer doctors. "She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances," the doctor tells us as she heads for the next patient. The president of the board of the National Association of Free Health Clinics tells me why: "It's stage four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher, and her chances for an earlier diagnosis and treatment would have been far greater.

After watching for hours as the patients moved through the clinic, it was hard to believe that I was in America.

Eighty-three percent of the patients they see are employed, they are not accepting other government help on a large scale, not "welfare queens" as some would like to have us believe. They are tax-paying, good, upstanding citizens who are trying to make it and give their kids a better life just like you and me.

Ninety percent of the patients who came through Saturday's clinic had two or more diagnoses.

Eighty-two percent had a life-threatening condition such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hypertension. They are victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women.

We have all made mistakes. But Dante tells us that divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales. Better the occasional faults of a party living in the spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a party frozen in the ice of its own indifference.
President John F. Kennedy

No dear. You proved nothing. If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Also, the government's own enormous, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy eats up a huge percentage of every tax dollar taken in or every dollar borrowed. That percentage benefits nobody.

I may not have to immediately pay out of pocket for a free lunch, but somebody somewhere paid the cost of that lunch.

That healthcare through Medicare costs me less out of pocket than the actual cost of that healthcare does not reduce the actual cost of that care. Make the healthcare provider eat it and you steadily shrink the pool of private healthcare providers willing to take those kinds of losses. That is the reason that the pool of doctors and other healthcare services to the elderly has been shrinking for some time and the waiting lists become ever longer. If Obamacare goes into full effect that will become a very serious problem for a lot of us.

If the government absorbs the difference, it still has to come out of somebody's pockets now or adds to an out-of-control national debt.

There is no free lunch.

 

[bravoactual]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Bolding Is Mine and For Editorial Purposes Only:

IF ConJobs/NeoNuts/Repugs/Teahadists are so all fired up about wanting "Limited Government", why do they want to women to under go a Government Ordered Vaginal Probe?

One act, cancels out the other.

 

[bravoactual]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Bolding Is Mine and For Editorial Purposes Only:

IF ConJobs/NeoNuts/Repugs/Teahadists are so all fired up about wanting "Limited Government", why do they want to women to under go a Government Ordered Vaginal Probe?

IF you are dedicated to the idea of "Limitedd Government", you cannot at the same time demand a woman, regardless of the reason for the visit to the Doctor, under go what is an invasive, Government Ordered Medical Test.

One act, cancels out the other.

 

[Bfgrn]

And not a word you posted in this screed speaks to the specific issue I was discussing which is that the government is not providing healthcare to seniors or anybody else, nor is the government providing anything to anybody, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. When the government gets involved in anything, it will cost more.

WOW. you really are an ignorant one aren't you??? I just PROVED beyond a doubt with numerous sources that government IS providing health care, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. AND...by a wide margin. WTF is wrong with your brain?

If you are so fascinated with the anecdotal, read THIS. Then tell me why it is acceptable in this country Foxfyre. I want to hear you justify the premature and preventable death of fellow Americans. The first 50 year old woman in the story is probably dead from something that could have been prevented.


Health reform's human stories

New Orleans, La. — — It happened as I watched a 50-something woman walk out, after spending several hours being attended to by volunteer doctors. "She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances," the doctor tells us as she heads for the next patient. The president of the board of the National Association of Free Health Clinics tells me why: "It's stage four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher, and her chances for an earlier diagnosis and treatment would have been far greater.

After watching for hours as the patients moved through the clinic, it was hard to believe that I was in America.

Eighty-three percent of the patients they see are employed, they are not accepting other government help on a large scale, not "welfare queens" as some would like to have us believe. They are tax-paying, good, upstanding citizens who are trying to make it and give their kids a better life just like you and me.

Ninety percent of the patients who came through Saturday's clinic had two or more diagnoses.

Eighty-two percent had a life-threatening condition such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hypertension. They are victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women.

We have all made mistakes. But Dante tells us that divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales. Better the occasional faults of a party living in the spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a party frozen in the ice of its own indifference.
President John F. Kennedy

No dear. You proved nothing. If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Also, the government's own enormous, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy eats up a huge percentage of every tax dollar taken in or every dollar borrowed. That percentage benefits nobody.

I may not have to immediately pay out of pocket for a free lunch, but somebody somewhere paid the cost of that lunch.

That healthcare through Medicare costs me less out of pocket than the actual cost of that healthcare does not reduce the actual cost of that care. Make the healthcare provider eat it and you steadily shrink the pool of private healthcare providers willing to take those kinds of losses. That is the reason that the pool of doctors and other healthcare services to the elderly has been shrinking for some time and the waiting lists become ever longer. If Obamacare goes into full effect that will become a very serious problem for a lot of us.

If the government absorbs the difference, it still has to come out of somebody's pockets now or adds to an out-of-control national debt.

There is no free lunch.

Do you understand overhead costs....dear? Obviously not. There is NO FUCKING WAY 'for profit' insurers can provide health care for less than the government run programs. Every industrialized nation has proven that government run universal health care is MUCH more cost effective and efficient than our cartel corporate run death panels. And none of them became socialist countries. They are mature enough and intelligent enough to understand that health care does not fit a for profit, 'free market' model. It should be self apparent to any thinking human being. But that would eliminate conservatives, the modern day Pharisees.

 

[UpAndAbout]

And not a word you posted in this screed speaks to the specific issue I was discussing which is that the government is not providing healthcare to seniors or anybody else, nor is the government providing anything to anybody, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. When the government gets involved in anything, it will cost more.

WOW. you really are an ignorant one aren't you??? I just PROVED beyond a doubt with numerous sources that government IS providing health care, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. AND...by a wide margin. WTF is wrong with your brain?

If you are so fascinated with the anecdotal, read THIS. Then tell me why it is acceptable in this country Foxfyre. I want to hear you justify the premature and preventable death of fellow Americans. The first 50 year old woman in the story is probably dead from something that could have been prevented.


Health reform's human stories

New Orleans, La. — — It happened as I watched a 50-something woman walk out, after spending several hours being attended to by volunteer doctors. "She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances," the doctor tells us as she heads for the next patient. The president of the board of the National Association of Free Health Clinics tells me why: "It's stage four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher, and her chances for an earlier diagnosis and treatment would have been far greater.

After watching for hours as the patients moved through the clinic, it was hard to believe that I was in America.

Eighty-three percent of the patients they see are employed, they are not accepting other government help on a large scale, not "welfare queens" as some would like to have us believe. They are tax-paying, good, upstanding citizens who are trying to make it and give their kids a better life just like you and me.

Ninety percent of the patients who came through Saturday's clinic had two or more diagnoses.

Eighty-two percent had a life-threatening condition such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hypertension. They are victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women.

We have all made mistakes. But Dante tells us that divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales. Better the occasional faults of a party living in the spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a party frozen in the ice of its own indifference.
President John F. Kennedy

No dear. You proved nothing. If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Also, the government's own enormous, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy eats up a huge percentage of every tax dollar taken in or every dollar borrowed. That percentage benefits nobody.

I may not have to immediately pay out of pocket for a free lunch, but somebody somewhere paid the cost of that lunch.

That healthcare through Medicare costs me less out of pocket than the actual cost of that healthcare does not reduce the actual cost of that care. Make the healthcare provider eat it and you steadily shrink the pool of private healthcare providers willing to take those kinds of losses. That is the reason that the pool of doctors and other healthcare services to the elderly has been shrinking for some time and the waiting lists become ever longer. If Obamacare goes into full effect that will become a very serious problem for a lot of us.

If the government absorbs the difference, it still has to come out of somebody's pockets now or adds to an out-of-control national debt.

There is no free lunch.

What they will do is discourage people from going to medical school. There will be a smaller group of doctors available and we will be forced to be treated by CNAs. Well forget it -- MY husband is a nurse, so he can certainly beat a CNA. My MIL passed away last April. Prior to that when she finally decided to even SEE a doctor, we could not find one that would take a new Medicare patient. Even though she had insurance through her late husband's military retirement, she also had Medicare and so she was SOL.

 

[Foxfyre]

WOW. you really are an ignorant one aren't you??? I just PROVED beyond a doubt with numerous sources that government IS providing health care, in a more cost effective manner than what can be done in the private sector. AND...by a wide margin. WTF is wrong with your brain?

If you are so fascinated with the anecdotal, read THIS. Then tell me why it is acceptable in this country Foxfyre. I want to hear you justify the premature and preventable death of fellow Americans. The first 50 year old woman in the story is probably dead from something that could have been prevented.


Health reform's human stories

New Orleans, La. — — It happened as I watched a 50-something woman walk out, after spending several hours being attended to by volunteer doctors. "She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances," the doctor tells us as she heads for the next patient. The president of the board of the National Association of Free Health Clinics tells me why: "It's stage four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher, and her chances for an earlier diagnosis and treatment would have been far greater.

After watching for hours as the patients moved through the clinic, it was hard to believe that I was in America.

Eighty-three percent of the patients they see are employed, they are not accepting other government help on a large scale, not "welfare queens" as some would like to have us believe. They are tax-paying, good, upstanding citizens who are trying to make it and give their kids a better life just like you and me.

Ninety percent of the patients who came through Saturday's clinic had two or more diagnoses.

Eighty-two percent had a life-threatening condition such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hypertension. They are victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women.

We have all made mistakes. But Dante tells us that divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales. Better the occasional faults of a party living in the spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a party frozen in the ice of its own indifference.
President John F. Kennedy

No dear. You proved nothing. If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Also, the government's own enormous, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy eats up a huge percentage of every tax dollar taken in or every dollar borrowed. That percentage benefits nobody.

I may not have to immediately pay out of pocket for a free lunch, but somebody somewhere paid the cost of that lunch.

That healthcare through Medicare costs me less out of pocket than the actual cost of that healthcare does not reduce the actual cost of that care. Make the healthcare provider eat it and you steadily shrink the pool of private healthcare providers willing to take those kinds of losses. That is the reason that the pool of doctors and other healthcare services to the elderly has been shrinking for some time and the waiting lists become ever longer. If Obamacare goes into full effect that will become a very serious problem for a lot of us.

If the government absorbs the difference, it still has to come out of somebody's pockets now or adds to an out-of-control national debt.

There is no free lunch.

What they will do is discourage people from going to medical school. There will be a smaller group of doctors available and we will be forced to be treated by CNAs. Well forget it -- MY husband is a nurse, so he can certainly beat a CNA. My MIL passed away last April. Prior to that when she finally decided to even SEE a doctor, we could not find one that would take a new Medicare patient. Even though she had insurance through her late husband's military retirement, she also had Medicare and so she was SOL.

I agree. I already see it happening. Even if people do go to medical school, we will only get those who just want a government job with regular hours and will no longer see the best of the best getting into medicine. Right now my husband and I are in an excellent privately managed Medicare Advantage plan which does take care of us though it is becoming ever more difficult to get in to a specialist as more and more are refusing Medicare patients. And if Obamacare goes into full effect, Obama already has his sights set on the Advantage Plans our our exvcellent group here will likely be forced to disband. So if we are able to find a doctor to treat us at all, it is likely to be one at the very bottom of the heap that nobody else would go to on a bet.

People with great cut and paste skills can pretend they know all about it and can use that to blow as much smoke as they wish. Those who are living it, however, have a very different perspective.

 

[Bfgrn]

No dear. You proved nothing. If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Also, the government's own enormous, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy eats up a huge percentage of every tax dollar taken in or every dollar borrowed. That percentage benefits nobody.

I may not have to immediately pay out of pocket for a free lunch, but somebody somewhere paid the cost of that lunch.

That healthcare through Medicare costs me less out of pocket than the actual cost of that healthcare does not reduce the actual cost of that care. Make the healthcare provider eat it and you steadily shrink the pool of private healthcare providers willing to take those kinds of losses. That is the reason that the pool of doctors and other healthcare services to the elderly has been shrinking for some time and the waiting lists become ever longer. If Obamacare goes into full effect that will become a very serious problem for a lot of us.

If the government absorbs the difference, it still has to come out of somebody's pockets now or adds to an out-of-control national debt.

There is no free lunch.

What they will do is discourage people from going to medical school. There will be a smaller group of doctors available and we will be forced to be treated by CNAs. Well forget it -- MY husband is a nurse, so he can certainly beat a CNA. My MIL passed away last April. Prior to that when she finally decided to even SEE a doctor, we could not find one that would take a new Medicare patient. Even though she had insurance through her late husband's military retirement, she also had Medicare and so she was SOL.

I agree. I already see it happening. Even if people do go to medical school, we will only get those who just want a government job with regular hours and will no longer see the best of the best getting into medicine. Right now my husband and I are in an excellent privately managed Medicare Advantage plan which does take care of us though it is becoming ever more difficult to get in to a specialist as more and more are refusing Medicare patients. And if Obamacare goes into full effect, Obama already has his sights set on the Advantage Plans our our exvcellent group here will likely be forced to disband. So if we are able to find a doctor to treat us at all, it is likely to be one at the very bottom of the heap that nobody else would go to on a bet.

People with great cut and paste skills can pretend they know all about it and can use that to blow as much smoke as they wish. Those who are living it, however, have a very different perspective.

Why you welfare queen scummy piece of shit. It's OK if I and other taxpayers have to pay for your fucking Medicare advantage.

If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Billions in Windfall Payments Go to Private Medicare Plans

Medicare Advantage plans are heavily subsidized, to the tune of billions of dollars a year, and these dollars come out of the pockets of Medicare beneficiaries and taxpayers

 

[Foxfyre]

What they will do is discourage people from going to medical school. There will be a smaller group of doctors available and we will be forced to be treated by CNAs. Well forget it -- MY husband is a nurse, so he can certainly beat a CNA. My MIL passed away last April. Prior to that when she finally decided to even SEE a doctor, we could not find one that would take a new Medicare patient. Even though she had insurance through her late husband's military retirement, she also had Medicare and so she was SOL.

I agree. I already see it happening. Even if people do go to medical school, we will only get those who just want a government job with regular hours and will no longer see the best of the best getting into medicine. Right now my husband and I are in an excellent privately managed Medicare Advantage plan which does take care of us though it is becoming ever more difficult to get in to a specialist as more and more are refusing Medicare patients. And if Obamacare goes into full effect, Obama already has his sights set on the Advantage Plans our our exvcellent group here will likely be forced to disband. So if we are able to find a doctor to treat us at all, it is likely to be one at the very bottom of the heap that nobody else would go to on a bet.

People with great cut and paste skills can pretend they know all about it and can use that to blow as much smoke as they wish. Those who are living it, however, have a very different perspective.

Why you welfare queen scummy piece of shit. It's OK if I and other taxpayers have to pay for your fucking Medicare advantage.

If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Billions in Windfall Payments Go to Private Medicare Plans

Medicare Advantage plans are heavily subsidized, to the tune of billions of dollars a year, and these dollars come out of the pockets of Medicare beneficiaries and taxpayers

Oh yeah. I'm a welfare queen scummy piece of shit because after paying into the plan for more than 40 years and watching private insurance go away for all but very rich seniors thanks to our benevolent government, Medicare is the only option I have. Medicare Advantage, despite your source and the drawbacks that exist within it, is absolutely the best choice for anybody in our area other than the very rich and the poor. But I'll post my own link for that:

Medicare Advantage Plans vs Medicare Supplemental

And yes, Medicare Advantage is a government program and therefore is far more expensive than it has to be just like all other government programs. And if it is dismantled and those of us on Medicare Advantage are forced into basic Medicare coverage, we will no longer have guaranteed access to our doctors, specialists, eye exams and treatments like other straight medicare people and the waiting lists will lengthen and quality of care will continue to deteriorate as the availablilty of healthcare providers and treatment continues to dry up.

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating is they so often can't see the forest for the trees, cannot separate the realities from the stuff they cut and paste from the internet, cannot understand that the government is not the best means of providing most things and that interest in limiting government meddling and environment is an effort to make things better. Too many liberals seem content with just spreading the misery.

 

[Bfgrn]

I agree. I already see it happening. Even if people do go to medical school, we will only get those who just want a government job with regular hours and will no longer see the best of the best getting into medicine. Right now my husband and I are in an excellent privately managed Medicare Advantage plan which does take care of us though it is becoming ever more difficult to get in to a specialist as more and more are refusing Medicare patients. And if Obamacare goes into full effect, Obama already has his sights set on the Advantage Plans our our exvcellent group here will likely be forced to disband. So if we are able to find a doctor to treat us at all, it is likely to be one at the very bottom of the heap that nobody else would go to on a bet.

People with great cut and paste skills can pretend they know all about it and can use that to blow as much smoke as they wish. Those who are living it, however, have a very different perspective.

Why you welfare queen scummy piece of shit. It's OK if I and other taxpayers have to pay for your fucking Medicare advantage.

If the healthcare I'm getting costs $1.00 and the government only pays the healthcare provider 75 cents, somebody somewhere eats the other 25 cents. It does not reduce the cost.

Billions in Windfall Payments Go to Private Medicare Plans

Medicare Advantage plans are heavily subsidized, to the tune of billions of dollars a year, and these dollars come out of the pockets of Medicare beneficiaries and taxpayers

Oh yeah. I'm a welfare queen scummy piece of shit because after paying into the plan for more than 40 years and watching private insurance go away for all but very rich seniors thanks to our benevolent government, Medicare is the only option I have. Medicare Advantage, despite your source and the drawbacks that exist within it, is absolutely the best choice for anybody in our area other than the very rich and the poor. But I'll post my own link for that:

Medicare Advantage Plans vs Medicare Supplemental

And yes, Medicare Advantage is a government program and therefore is far more expensive than it has to be just like all other government programs. And if it is dismantled and those of us on Medicare Advantage are forced into basic Medicare coverage, we will no longer have guaranteed access to our doctors, specialists, eye exams and treatments like other straight medicare people and the waiting lists will lengthen and quality of care will continue to deteriorate as the availablilty of healthcare providers and treatment continues to dry up.

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating is they so often can't see the forest for the trees, cannot separate the realities from the stuff they cut and paste from the internet, cannot understand that the government is not the best means of providing most things and that interest in limiting government meddling and environment is an effort to make things better. Too many liberals seem content with just spreading the misery.

Boo FUCKING hoo, you right wing scum bag. You absolutely love the private insurance cartels, so... go out and BUY private insurance, you welfare scum of a person. HOW DARE YOU ask me to subsidize your Medicare. It is time for you to reap what you sow.

 

[Foxfyre]

Why you welfare queen scummy piece of shit. It's OK if I and other taxpayers have to pay for your fucking Medicare advantage.



Billions in Windfall Payments Go to Private Medicare Plans

Medicare Advantage plans are heavily subsidized, to the tune of billions of dollars a year, and these dollars come out of the pockets of Medicare beneficiaries and taxpayers

Oh yeah. I'm a welfare queen scummy piece of shit because after paying into the plan for more than 40 years and watching private insurance go away for all but very rich seniors thanks to our benevolent government, Medicare is the only option I have. Medicare Advantage, despite your source and the drawbacks that exist within it, is absolutely the best choice for anybody in our area other than the very rich and the poor. But I'll post my own link for that:

Medicare Advantage Plans vs Medicare Supplemental

And yes, Medicare Advantage is a government program and therefore is far more expensive than it has to be just like all other government programs. And if it is dismantled and those of us on Medicare Advantage are forced into basic Medicare coverage, we will no longer have guaranteed access to our doctors, specialists, eye exams and treatments like other straight medicare people and the waiting lists will lengthen and quality of care will continue to deteriorate as the availablilty of healthcare providers and treatment continues to dry up.

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating is they so often can't see the forest for the trees, cannot separate the realities from the stuff they cut and paste from the internet, cannot understand that the government is not the best means of providing most things and that interest in limiting government meddling and environment is an effort to make things better. Too many liberals seem content with just spreading the misery.

Boo FUCKING hoo, you right wing scum bag. You absolutely love the private insurance cartels, so... go out and BUY private insurance, you welfare scum of a person. HOW DARE YOU ask me to subsidize your Medicare. It is time for you to reap what you sow.

Actually I wish folks like you would go find some other country more in tune with your way of thinking and leave this one to the conservatives to fix. It would take awhile since Medicare has been festering for going on five decades now, but with some work, inspiration, and creativity we can re-establish the free market and sanity into the healthcare system and a lot of other things that would greatly benefit from it.

But thanks for your post. It illustrates in spades the disconnect, ignorance, and misconceptions that make arguing with liberals so damn frustrating.

 

[Ed Spacer]

Bring it on,vidi...my traps waitin....
bring it on.

 

[Bfgrn]

Oh yeah. I'm a welfare queen scummy piece of shit because after paying into the plan for more than 40 years and watching private insurance go away for all but very rich seniors thanks to our benevolent government, Medicare is the only option I have. Medicare Advantage, despite your source and the drawbacks that exist within it, is absolutely the best choice for anybody in our area other than the very rich and the poor. But I'll post my own link for that:

Medicare Advantage Plans vs Medicare Supplemental

And yes, Medicare Advantage is a government program and therefore is far more expensive than it has to be just like all other government programs. And if it is dismantled and those of us on Medicare Advantage are forced into basic Medicare coverage, we will no longer have guaranteed access to our doctors, specialists, eye exams and treatments like other straight medicare people and the waiting lists will lengthen and quality of care will continue to deteriorate as the availablilty of healthcare providers and treatment continues to dry up.

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating is they so often can't see the forest for the trees, cannot separate the realities from the stuff they cut and paste from the internet, cannot understand that the government is not the best means of providing most things and that interest in limiting government meddling and environment is an effort to make things better. Too many liberals seem content with just spreading the misery.

Boo FUCKING hoo, you right wing scum bag. You absolutely love the private insurance cartels, so... go out and BUY private insurance, you welfare scum of a person. HOW DARE YOU ask me to subsidize your Medicare. It is time for you to reap what you sow.

Actually I wish folks like you would go find some other country more in tune with your way of thinking and leave this one to the conservatives to fix. It would take awhile since Medicare has been festering for going on five decades now, but with some work, inspiration, and creativity we can re-establish the free market and sanity into the healthcare system and a lot of other things that would greatly benefit from it.

But thanks for your post. It illustrates in spades the disconnect, ignorance, and misconceptions that make arguing with liberals so damn frustrating.

Hey you welfare piece of trash. Give me ONE example of a successful 'free market' health care system...just ONE you hypocrite?

 

[Ed Spacer]

First off,liberal trash,you DO NOT disrespect anyone here like that.foxfyre toasted your ass on this thread,and you know it.
i believe EVERYONE should be personally responsible for their own well being.
not pay for others.
its a matter of choice,which free nations do. Their people CHOOSE,not have choices made for them.
if you want communism,go to russia and china.
maybe nanny nations suit your needs.

 

[Bfgrn]

First off,liberal trash,you DO NOT disrespect anyone here like that.foxfyre toasted your ass on this thread,and you know it.
i believe EVERYONE should be personally responsible for their own well being.
not pay for others.
its a matter of choice,which free nations do. Their people CHOOSE,not have choices made for them.
if you want communism,go to russia and china.
maybe nanny nations suit your needs.

Hey fuck face, I buried Foxfyre on this thread, just like every other thread she opens her ignorant pie hole. She offers emotions, I present FACTS backed up with empirical data and expert testimony.

Foxfyre's health care plan is being subsidized by you and me. That means PAYED FOR for obtuse fucks like you. So SHE is the one who is having her health care paid for by others. Obviously your child brain cannot comprehend the facts.