What’s Islam Got to Do With It?

[Annie]

Would he have done it if he were not a Muslim? Probably not. Therefore, it has it's part in the tragedy. Having said that, was it the only factor? No.

So, Islam is not to blame but this dude's perverted view of Islam was a significant factor. Apart from that - he was a recent convert to cowardice.

The shootings were not a tragedy. A tragedy is a school bus losing control while avoiding an accident and going off a cliff. It's hurricanes, mudslides, and other unpreventable acts.

This was a deliberate, cold blooded suicide attack, unfortunately the cops didn't fulfill their assigned roles and complete the suicide by cop part.

I lean towards defining it a tragedy because, I suspect, the the families - it was. I don't disagree with anything you say. But 9 11 was a tragedy - so was Ft Hood. Both at the hands of scumbags.... I sincerely hope we treat this one in an appropriate manner.

Tragedies are unavoidable, usually unpreventable. To call this a 'National Tragedy' have a few candlelight vigils, post our 'feelings' on messagboards or around the water cooler, makes people feel like they've 'done something.' A few weeks later all that remains are the ideas of whether or not we or the government have learned the lessons provided.

No actions are going to make life more bearable for the families. Certainly the condolences let them know people care, but the 'national outpouring' will last a short time. The families, friends, and fellow soldiers will have it forever.

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

One of the great things about being American is this clichéd notion of rugged individuality. We are not an old society like Europe or India, where your class and identity were established before your mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was born. This idea of personal responsibility and the self-made individual organizes the way we think about ourselves as Americans.


So this idea that blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion must take responsibility for whatever evil other blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion do is frankly un-American.

Anyone like to dispute that argument? Or is it just about shouting insults from the sidelines now?

If there was the 'blame all Muslims' from the majority of people or even posters here, the point would be good.

To ignore the Islam factor of a person that has repeatedly spoken out in favor of suicide bombers, then actually attempts suicide by cops while mowing down 13 unarmed people, while in rapture calling out his god to watch him is just nonsensical. It's not 'Muslims' that are the problem, it's the orthodox extremists that are the problem.

This is the answer, right here, but in this country as in others, it is the extremists who make the news. Then the bigots and fools have theiir pretexts to generalise, blame all, stereotype, and unfortunately those in a mode of suicide by cop, and suicide but I will take company with me have searched out pretexts to justify their craziness. Crazy, skewed, or whatever, most humans go a whole lifetime believing in something or another, but never get to this extreme. The majority are not at fault for the actions of the very few. In fact, a whole lot of crazies go a whole lifetime and never do this sort of thing.....

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

Mind your own fucking business.


*Note: Multicolor posting always leads me to the conclusion that the poster is one of those who writes anonymous letters in crayon. Just sayin'.

Well, at least we know who is a coward, all yap, yap yap, an recliner soldier, shooting with a remote....

and as for bold and in colors, that is because some whiny rightie cried because their WHOLE, waaa waaa waaa, post wasn't included, so mod said to differentiate bold and/or highlite what point was being made, so do you get it now, armchair patriot, LOL.... so I have included MY whole post rather than whine to the mods and getting you in trouble, LOL....

I think we can clearly see who is the stupid fucking idiot.

Unless you actually know a person's background, bandying words like 'coward' is just a fraction idiotic.... but have at it anyway, idiot.

People who use multiple colors in writing are often also whackjobs.

You make pompous pronouncements up here on a regular basis, Valley Girl, and this "Unless you actually know a person's background..." are you even aware of your gross hypocrisy?

Likely not, just goes along with the rest of your crap.....

 

[PixieStix]

If a jihadist stood right in front of some of you and told you what he was about to do to you, and why, and screaming "allahu akbar", many of you would still be an apologist, oh wait, you would be dead

 

[Xenophon]

If a jihadist stood right in front of some of you and told you what he was about to do to you, and why, and screaming "allahu akbar", many of you would still be an apologist, oh wait, you would be dead

As opposed to simply being brain dead, ala the author of the lead story?

 

[Diuretic]

I'm thinking I'll hang out on the sidelines shouting insults.... "JERK"



Disclaimer: Comedic Post Only.

You've got me at a disadvantage - after all it's more fun to do the yelling

Ha ha! Your ancestors are convicts!!!


Disclaimer: Comedic Post Only. The above should not be assumed to mean that California Girl really believes that Australians are descended from convicts. In fact, she is of the opinion that those original Australians were smart enough to get out of the UK AND get the UK government to pay their passage. Gotta admire that!

Don't worry about my ancestors, I should tell you about a few of my relations

Warning: major thread drift - the original Australians got here on foot from Africa, about 50,000 years ago and wandered all over the landmass. Their traces can be seen everywhere except one large island. No, not Tasmania, they made it there on the landbridge which connected what is now Tasmania with the now mainland over what is now the Bass Strait, (that's Bass, not George, ho ho ho, just a little country music joke there).

The convicts who were transported to Australia's various penal colonies were a mix of common criminals and political dissenters such as the Fenians from Ireland (then a British colony). It might come as a surprise to North Americans to realise that some political prisoners from the American colonies and Lower Canada were sent to the Australian penal colonies.

Canadian Convicts to Australia

In Hobart, Tasmania (a beautiful city in a beautiful state) in the gardens at the back of Salamanca Place there is a walk through the gardens marked with Maple Leaf motifs that celebrate the incarceration (and eventual release) of the Canadian prisoners.

The British Empire was a wicked and cruel regime for many years of its existence.

Apologies for the mega-drift.

 

[Diuretic]

Islam is for fagots.

So, apparently, is spelling.

Touch eh?

 

[California Girl]

Well, at least we know who is a coward, all yap, yap yap, an recliner soldier, shooting with a remote....

and as for bold and in colors, that is because some whiny rightie cried because their WHOLE, waaa waaa waaa, post wasn't included, so mod said to differentiate bold and/or highlite what point was being made, so do you get it now, armchair patriot, LOL.... so I have included MY whole post rather than whine to the mods and getting you in trouble, LOL....

I think we can clearly see who is the stupid fucking idiot.

Unless you actually know a person's background, bandying words like 'coward' is just a fraction idiotic.... but have at it anyway, idiot.

People who use multiple colors in writing are often also whackjobs.

You make pompous pronouncements up here on a regular basis, Valley Girl, and this "Unless you actually know a person's background..." are you even aware of your gross hypocrisy?

Likely not, just goes along with the rest of your crap.....

I make comments, as does everyone else on this board. If you are too stupid to understand those comments, don't blame me. Blame your own lack of intellect and basic comprehesion skills.

You're a mutlicolored idiot. That's your crosss to bear, I won't carry it for you.

 

[Diuretic]

One of the great things about being American is this clichéd notion of rugged individuality. We are not an old society like Europe or India, where your class and identity were established before your mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was born. This idea of personal responsibility and the self-made individual organizes the way we think about ourselves as Americans.


So this idea that blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion must take responsibility for whatever evil other blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion do is frankly un-American.

Anyone like to dispute that argument? Or is it just about shouting insults from the sidelines now?

If there was the 'blame all Muslims' from the majority of people or even posters here, the point would be good.

To ignore the Islam factor of a person that has repeatedly spoken out in favor of suicide bombers, then actually attempts suicide by cops while mowing down 13 unarmed people, while in rapture calling out his god to watch him is just nonsensical. It's not 'Muslims' that are the problem, it's the orthodox extremists that are the problem.

If there's no “blame all Muslims” from anyone then that's fair enough.

I am now going to speculate. I'm speculating that the defendant has retreated into his religion in a manner in which the religion doesn't countenance. But let me make this point, I know nothing about Islam beyond what I can Google or Wikipediate (I'm claiming that verb because I haven't seen it anywhere) or my reading of Alfred Guillaume's “Islam” which I read several years ago (it was leisure-time reading, I didn't make notes). However my speculation allows me to think that the defendant began to develop a mental disorder over some time and as part of his attempts to achieve some sort of mental equilibrium he became more devout and possibly developed a more fundamentalist view of his religion and the teachings of its revealed text and the associated exegesis by the Prophet and various scholars. My speculation also allows me to consider that the defendant may have descended further into the depths of his mental illness so far that he, in his attempts to achieve mental equilibrium, became deluded to the point where he convinced himself that he, as a devout Muslim, had no choice but to act as he did.

 

[Annie]

And yet it seems that he managed in the throes of mental illness, over the course of two years to have sent and received more than 20 emails with the terror imam, make phone calls with him and others. Send money to Pakistan to fund we do not 'know' yet, though his family is in the Palestinian territories. He put together at least one powerpoint to show how great Islam is and advocate jihadism.

Our government needs to find out connections, their involvement if any, and do what they need to regarding any found. He is not 'insane' by criminal definition, motivation of jihadi or a hate crime, or just blowing off steam should not excuse what he did. He planned it after time, he prepared as a jihadist, including giving away korans and belongings.

 

[Diuretic]

And yet it seems that he managed in the throes of mental illness, over the course of two years to have sent and received more than 20 emails with the terror imam, make phone calls with him and others. Send money to Pakistan to fund we do not 'know' yet, though his family is in the Palestinian territories. He put together at least one powerpoint to show how great Islam is and advocate jihadism.

Our government needs to find out connections, their involvement if any, and do what they need to regarding any found. He is not 'insane' by criminal definition, motivation of jihadi or a hate crime, or just blowing off steam should not excuse what he did. He planned it after time, he prepared as a jihadist, including giving away korans and belongings.

I saw the PPT – that was the one on the New York Times site I think. But my reading of the PPT show was a sort of progressive reasoning to reach a conclusion. It was as if someone had sat at their computer and worked their way through their own reasoning. The conclusion was that Muslims in the US military should be able to claim conscience objection to fighting in Muslim countries. I don't recall anything other than that.

Someone suffering from a mental illness is frequently able to function. There are, for example, many sociopaths in society but they don't come under notice. Okay it might be a severe personality disorder but the point stands. Even sufferers of severe psychotic disorders can perform everyday functions. The evidence you've put forward supports rather than damages my speculation.

Whether or not the defendant is insane is up to the courts but as I understand it the test in the US is still the M'Naghten Rules. I have no idea how that will play out, if at all.

 

[Annie]

And yet it seems that he managed in the throes of mental illness, over the course of two years to have sent and received more than 20 emails with the terror imam, make phone calls with him and others. Send money to Pakistan to fund we do not 'know' yet, though his family is in the Palestinian territories. He put together at least one powerpoint to show how great Islam is and advocate jihadism.

Our government needs to find out connections, their involvement if any, and do what they need to regarding any found. He is not 'insane' by criminal definition, motivation of jihadi or a hate crime, or just blowing off steam should not excuse what he did. He planned it after time, he prepared as a jihadist, including giving away korans and belongings.

I saw the PPT – that was the one on the New York Times site I think. But my reading of the PPT show was a sort of progressive reasoning to reach a conclusion. It was as if someone had sat at their computer and worked their way through their own reasoning. The conclusion was that Muslims in the US military should be able to claim conscience objection to fighting in Muslim countries. I don't recall anything other than that.

Someone suffering from a mental illness is frequently able to function. There are, for example, many sociopaths in society but they don't come under notice. Okay it might be a severe personality disorder but the point stands. Even sufferers of severe psychotic disorders can perform everyday functions. The evidence you've put forward supports rather than damages my speculation.

Whether or not the defendant is insane is up to the courts but as I understand it the test in the US is still the M'Naghten Rules. I have no idea how that will play out, if at all.

and again I would say it doesn't matter the label, what matters is what was done. What matters in the longer game is what is done about the decisions reached not to stop/remove this guy, by several agencies of our government. That and how the courts deal with. Right now I don't know if I'm happy or not that it's military over civilian, pretty difficult to tell which would lean more PC. Seems they all have forgotten the number 1 job of government.

 

[Diuretic]

What was done will be the subject of due process. I'm going to pause for a moment and think about that. A bloke allegedly (I'm sorry I'd conditioned) carries out these acts. There is much, understandable pain in your society about this. But the defendant is treated for his wounds sustained in the action. He has been assigned a defence attorney. He will be given due process. I reckon that deserves a couple of elephant stamps (approval).

I have no doubt that there will be detailed inquiries into why this event wasn't prevented. And that's a good thing. What comes from those inquiries will be interesting and, for government, challenging.

 

[Annie]

What was done will be the subject of due process. I'm going to pause for a moment and think about that. A bloke allegedly (I'm sorry I'd conditioned) carries out these acts. There is much, understandable pain in your society about this. But the defendant is treated for his wounds sustained in the action. He has been assigned a defence attorney. He will be given due process. I reckon that deserves a couple of elephant stamps (approval).

I have no doubt that there will be detailed inquiries into why this event wasn't prevented. And that's a good thing. What comes from those inquiries will be interesting and, for government, challenging.

I've no doubt he'll get his days in court. The fact is this was one attack, are there more just biding time? Why should any believe the government will act differently? It's obvious they are not working better than they did 9/10/01.

 

[Diuretic]

What was done will be the subject of due process. I'm going to pause for a moment and think about that. A bloke allegedly (I'm sorry I'd conditioned) carries out these acts. There is much, understandable pain in your society about this. But the defendant is treated for his wounds sustained in the action. He has been assigned a defence attorney. He will be given due process. I reckon that deserves a couple of elephant stamps (approval).

I have no doubt that there will be detailed inquiries into why this event wasn't prevented. And that's a good thing. What comes from those inquiries will be interesting and, for government, challenging.

I've no doubt he'll get his days in court. The fact is this was one attack, are there more just biding time? Why should any believe the government will act differently? It's obvious they are not working better than they did 9/10/01.

It seems this was on attack perpetrated by an individual. There could well be others biding their time but I have to ask why would they? On the face of it this man, the defendant, has gone nutso. The effect was a number of persons killed. As sad as it is, is that an unusual occurrence in a country of more than 300m people?

Why would any terrorist organisation want individuals to carry on like this? There would be no nett effect. It doesn't make sense to me. I simply can't see this as a terrorist attack (avoiding the painful semantics). I would think terrorists would do it differently.

 

[Ringel05]

Worse, one of the tenets of Islam is (apparently) that killing infidels is a good thing.

O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty. And keep your duty to Allah. Surely Allah is Aware of what you do. - 5:8​

I actually find it ludicrous that with the real daily evidence of radical Islam confronting you you always post some idealistic verse from the Koran to refute. Your outlook is either intensely pollyannish or simply deflective. I don't know which but its actually becoming rather trite and tiresome. Perhaps you could simply responded to the realism of the issues.

(Note: this is a general statement and not about Hasan)

 

[Ringel05]

So this idea that blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion must take responsibility for whatever evil other blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion do is frankly un-American.

I find this statement in the OP to be the most hypocritical of the entire write up.

 

[Ravi]

And the nexy question will be "so what if he's a Muslim extremist terrorist. Isn't diversity what we are about?" Moderate Dems will not stand side by side with these apologists. Keep up the good work loonies.

Bullshit.

 

[Diuretic]

So this idea that blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion must take responsibility for whatever evil other blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion do is frankly un-American.

I find this statement in the OP to be the most hypocritical of the entire write up.

Why?

 

[Ringel05]

So this idea that blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion must take responsibility for whatever evil other blacks/gays/Latinos/insert religious persuasion do is frankly un-American.

I find this statement in the OP to be the most hypocritical of the entire write up.

Why?

State legislatures and congress always passing resolutions to apologize for what the evil white man has done and those pushing for said legislation. Omission of this aspect in the article is indicative, in my humble but accurate opinion, of hypocrisy to the nth degree.
This doesn't even address the carrion call from some in this country that the white man (conservative specifically) is responsible for all repression and evils in the world.