Why do the anti God crowd attack the bible ?

[Woyzeck]

The bible is an ancient collection of directives and stories directly from God (I believe). It doesn't have to be proven to be true. Maybe it has to be proven to you for you to believe it, in which case, you'll never believe it.

I do know it will never be disproven, and the more we learn about the world, ancient history, science, the more likely it is that every word in the bible is true.

Regardless. Proof isn't what makes it true. Proof is what PROVES the fact to those who don't believe it. I don't need proof; neither do most of the faithful.It's the unfaithful who think that a lack of stacks of evidence means it never happened. It's a fallacy. We don't have stacks of evidence of ANYTHING from ancient times. Most of what we have is a collection of piecemeal artifacts and questionable data. For me, it doesn't matter. I know the bible will never be disproved, I know some of it has been proven, and I know more will be. Eventually nobody will question it.

You're adorable. Have you thought on being on Bill Cosby's show, "Kids Say The Darndest Things?" You'd be a hoot!

 

[Youwerecreated]

You're adorable. Have you thought on being on Bill Cosby's show, "Kids Say The Darndest Things?" You'd be a hoot!

"Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 1 of many)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY]‪Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 1)‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

Really they laugh at creationist . I guess you didn't watch the debate i posted in the other thread. Most of the laughing was directed at the three Professors debating the creationist. Do you really want to see the difference between creationist and evolutionist.

Summary of Scientific Evidence for Creation (Part I & II)

by Duane Gish, Ph.D.


This impact pamphlet was written by a scientist, and a science educator, and reviewed by an attorney, to provide a brief summary of the scientific evidence supporting creation. The text materials and references listed at the end together give a more thorough discussion of this scientific evidence.

Introduction

Public schools in many localities are teaching two scientific models - the creation model and the evolution model of the origin of the universe, of life, and of man. There is apparent scientific evidence for creation, which is summarized in this pamphlet, just as there is apparent scientific evidence for evolution. The purpose of this pamphlet is to summarize the evidence that shows that:





"The creation model is at least as scientific as the evolution model, and is at least as nonreligious as the evolution model."



This scientific evidence for both models can be taught in public schools without any mention of religious doctrine, whether the Bible or the Humanist Manifesto. There are text materials and teacher handbooks that have been prepared for a fair presentation of both models, creation and evolution. There are also seminars and audiovisuals for training teachers to offer both models of origins.





"This scientific evidence both for creation and for evolution can and must be taught without any religious doctrine, whether the Bible or the Humanist Manifesto."
"Creation-science proponents want public schools to teach all the scientific data, censoring none, but do not want any religious doctrine to be brought into science classrooms."



Definitions of the Creation Model and the Evolution Model

The scientific model of creation, in summary, includes the scientific evidence for a sudden creation of complex and diversified kinds of life, with systematic gaps persisting between different kinds and with genetic variation occurring within each kind since that time. The scientific model of evolution, in summary, includes the scientific evidence for a gradual emergence of present life kinds over aeons of time, with emergence of complex and diversified kinds of life from simpler kinds and ultimately from nonliving matter. The creation model questions vertical evolution, which is the emergence of complex from simple and change between kinds, but it does not challenge what is often called horizontal evolution or microevolution, which creationists call genetic variation or species or subspecies formation within created kinds. The following chart lists seven aspects of the scientific model of creation and of the scientific model of evolution:





The creation model includes the scientific evidence and the related inferences suggesting that:

The evolution model includes the scientific evidence and the related inferences suggesting that:



I. The universe and the Solar system were suddenly created.

I. The universe and the solar system emerged by naturalistic processes.



II. Life was suddenly created.

II. Life emerged from nonlife by naturalistic processes.



III. All present living kinds of animals and plants have remained fixed since creation, other than extinctions, and genetic variation in originally created kinds has only occurred within narrow limits.

III. All present kinds emerged from simpler earlier kinds, so that single-celled organisms evolved into invertebrates, then vertebrates, then amphibians, then reptiles, then mammals, then primates, including man.



IV. Mutation and natural selection are insufficient to have brought about any emergence of present living kinds from a simple primordial organism.

IV. Mutation and natural selection have brought about the emergence of present complex kinds from a simple primordial organism.



V. Man and apes have a separate ancestry.

V. Man and apes emerged from a common ancestor.



VI. The earth's geologic features appear to have been fashioned largely by rapid, catastrophic processes that affected the earth on a global and regional scale (catastrophism).

VI. The earth's geologic features were fashioned largely by slow, gradual processes, with infrequent catastrophic events restricted to a local scale (uniformitarianism).



VII. The inception of the earth and of living kinds may have been relatively recent.

VII. The inception of the earth and then of life must have occurred several billion years ago.



I. The Universe and the Solar System Were Suddenly Created.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that the total quantity of matter and energy in the universe is constant. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that matter and energy always tend to change from complex and ordered states to disordered states. Therefore the universe could not have created itself, but could not have existed forever, or it would have run down long ago. Thus the universe, including matter and energy, apparently must have been created. The "big-bang" theory of the origin of the universe contradicts much physical evidence and seemingly can only be accepted by faith.1 This was also the case with the past cosmogonies theories of evolutionists that have been discarded, such as Hoyle’s steady-state theory. The universe has "obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design." Similarly, the electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects," yet a "strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer." "The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction," in the words of Dr. Wernher von Braun, the renowned late physicist in the NASA space program.

II. Life Was Suddenly Created.

Life appears abruptly and in complex forms in the fossil record,2 and gaps appear systematically in the fossil record between various living kinds.3 These facts indicate that basic kinds of plants and animals were created. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that things tend to go from order to disorder (entropy tends to increase) unless added energy is directed by a conversion mechanism (such as photosynthesis), whether a system is open or closed. Thus simple molecules and complex protein, DNA, and RNA molecules seemingly could not have evolved spontaneously and naturalistically into a living cell;4 such cells apparently were created. The laboratory experiments related to theories on the origin of life have not even remotely approached the synthesis of life from nonlife, and the extremely limited results have depended on laboratory conditions that are artificially imposed and extremely improbable.5 The extreme improbability of these conditions and the relatively insignificant results apparently show that life did not emerge by the process that evolutionists postulate.





"One example of the scientific evidence for creation is the sudden appearance of complex fossilized life in the fossil record, and the systematic gaps between fossilized kinds in that record. The most rational inference from this evidence seemingly is that life was created and did not evolve."



III. All Present Living Kinds of Animals and Plants Have Remained Fixed Since Creation, Other than Extinctions, and Genetic Variation in Originally Created Kinds Has Only Occurred within Narrow Limits.

Systematic gaps occur between kinds in the fossil record.6 None of the intermediate fossils that would be expected on the basis of the evolution model have been found between single celled organisms and invertebrates, between invertebrates and vertebrates, between fish and amphibians, between amphibians and reptiles, between reptiles and birds or mammals, or between "lower" mammals and primates.7 While evolutionists might assume that these intermediate forms existed at one time, none of the hundreds of millions of fossils found so far provide the missing links. The few suggested links such as Archoeopteryx and the horse series have been rendered questionable by more detailed data. Fossils and living organisms are readily subjected to the same criteria of classification. Thus present kinds of animals and plants apparently were created, as shown by the systematic fossil gaps and by the similarity of fossil forms to living forms. A kind may be defined as a generally interfertile group of organisms that possesses variant genes for a common set of traits but that does not interbreed with other groups of organisms under normal circumstances. Any evolutionary change between kinds (necessary for the emergence of complex from simple organisms) would require addition of entirely new traits to the common set and enormous expansion of the gene pool over time, and could not occur from mere ecologically adaptive variations of a given trait set (which the creation model recognizes).

IV. Mutation and Natural Selection Are Insufficient To Have Brought About Any Emergence of Present Living Kinds from a Simple Primordial Organism.

The mathematical probability that random mutation and natural selection ultimately produced complex living kinds from a simpler kind is infinitesimally small even after many billions of years.8 Thus mutation and natural selection apparently could not have brought about evolution of present living kinds from a simple first organism. Mutations are always harmful or at least nearly always harmful in an organism's natural environment.9 Thus the mutation process apparently could not have provided the postulated millions of beneficial mutations required for progressive evolution in the supposed five billion years from the origin of the earth until now, and in fact would have produced an overwhelming genetic load over hundreds of millions of years that would have caused degeneration and extinction. Natural selection is a tautologous concept (circular reasoning), because it simply requires the fittest organisms to leave the most offspring and at the same time it identifies the fittest organisms as those that leave the most offspring. Thus natural selection seemingly does not provide a testable explanation of how mutations would produce more fit organisms.10

V. Man and Apes Have a Separate Ancestry.

Although highly imaginative "transitional forms" between man and ape-like creatures have been constructed by evolutionists based on very fragmentary evidence, the fossil record actually documents the separate origin of primates in general,11 monkeys,12 apes,13 and men. In fact, Lord Zuckerman (not a creationist) states that there are no "fossil traces" of a transformation from an ape-like creature to man.14 The fossils of Neanderthal Man were once considered to represent a primitive sub-human (Homo neanderthalensis), but these "primitive" features are now known to have resulted from nutritional deficiencies and pathological conditions; he is now classified as fully human.15 Ramapithecus was once considered to be partially man-like, but is now known to be fully ape-like.16 Australopithecus, in the view of some leading evolutionists, was not intermediate between ape and man and did not walk upright.17 The strong bias of many evolutionists in seeking a link between apes and man is shown by the near-universal acceptance of two "missing links" that were later proved to be a fraud in the case of Piltdown Man (Eoanthropus) and a pig's tooth in the case of Nebraska Man (Hesperopithecus).18

VI. The Earth's Geologic Features Were Fashioned Largely by Rapid, Catastrophic Processes that Affected the Earth on a Global and Regional Scale (Catastrophism).

Catastrophic events have characterized the earth's history. Huge floods, massive asteroid collisions, large volcanic eruptions, devastating landslides, and intense earthquakes have left their marks on the earth. Catastrophic events appear to explain the formation of mountain ranges, deposition of thick sequences of sedimentary rocks with fossils, initiation of the glacial age, and extinction of dinosaurs and other animals. Catastrophism (catastrophic changes), rather than uniformitarianism (gradual changes), appears to be the best interpretation of a major portion of the earth's geology. Geologic data reflect catastrophic flooding. Evidences of rapid catastrophic water deposition include fossilized tree trunks that penetrate numerous sedimentary layers (such as at Joggins, Nova Scotia), widespread pebble and boulder layers (such as the Shinarump Conglomerate of the southwestern United States), fossilized logs in a single layer covering extensive areas (such as Petrified Forest National Park), and whole closed clams that were buried alive in mass graveyards in extensive sedimentary layers (such as at Glen Rose, Texas). Uniform processes such as normal river sedimentation, small volcanoes, slow erosion, and small earthquakes appear insufficient to explain large portions of the geologic record. Even the conventional uniformitarian geologists are beginning to yield to evidences of rapid and catastrophic processes.19

VII. The Inception of the Earth and of Living Kinds May Have Been Relatively Recent.

Radiometric dating methods (such as the uranium-lead and potassium-argon methods) depend on three assumptions: (a) that no decay product (lead or argon) was present initially or that the initial quantities can be accurately estimated, (b) that the decay system was closed through the years (so that radioactive material or product did not move in or out of the rock), and (c) that the decay rate was constant over time.20 Each of these assumptions may be questionable: (a) some nonradiogenic lead or argon was perhaps present initially;21 (b) the radioactive isotope (uranium or potassium isotopes) can perhaps migrate out of, and the decay product (lead or argon) can migrate into, many rocks over the years;22 and (c) the decay rate can perhaps change by neutrino bombardment and other causes.23 Numerous radiometric estimates have been hundreds of millions of years in excess of the true age. Thus ages estimated by the radiometric dating methods may very well be grossly in error. Alternate dating methods suggest much younger ages for the earth and life. Estimating by the rate of addition of helium to the atmosphere from radioactive decay, the age of the earth appears to be about 10,000 years, even allowing for moderate helium escape. Based on the present rate of the earth's cooling, the time required for the earth to have reached its present thermal structure seems to be only several tens of millions of years, even assuming that the earth was initially molten.24 Extrapolating the observed rate of apparently exponential decay of the earth's magnetic field, the age of the earth or life seemingly could not exceed 20,000 years.25 Thus the inception of the earth and the inception of life may have been relatively recent when all the evidence is considered.26



"There is scientific evidence for creation from cosmology, thermodynamics, paleontology, biology, mathematical probability, geology, and other sciences."
"There are many scientists in each field who conclude that the scientific data best support the creation model, not the evolution model."

 

[Avatar4321]

The bible is an ancient collection of directives and stories directly from God (I believe). It doesn't have to be proven to be true. Maybe it has to be proven to you for you to believe it, in which case, you'll never believe it.

I do know it will never be disproven, and the more we learn about the world, ancient history, science, the more likely it is that every word in the bible is true.

Regardless. Proof isn't what makes it true. Proof is what PROVES the fact to those who don't believe it. I don't need proof; neither do most of the faithful.It's the unfaithful who think that a lack of stacks of evidence means it never happened. It's a fallacy. We don't have stacks of evidence of ANYTHING from ancient times. Most of what we have is a collection of piecemeal artifacts and questionable data. For me, it doesn't matter. I know the bible will never be disproved, I know some of it has been proven, and I know more will be. Eventually nobody will question it.

You're adorable. Have you thought on being on Bill Cosby's show, "Kids Say The Darndest Things?" You'd be a hoot!

Test the principles taught in the Bible and you will see that allie is correct. They are true. And they will not be found to be untrue.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Really they laugh at creationist . I guess you didn't watch the debate i posted in the other thread. Most of the laughing was directed at the three Professors debating the creationist. Do you really want to see the difference between creationist and evolutionist.

Summary of Scientific Evidence for Creation (Part I & II)

by Duane Gish, Ph.D.


This impact pamphlet was written by a scientist, and a science educator, and reviewed by an attorney, to provide a brief summary of the scientific evidence supporting creation. The text materials and references listed at the end together give a more thorough discussion of this scientific evidence.
................................leaving out the bullshit because this guy you quote is a fraud..............
"There is scientific evidence for creation from cosmology, thermodynamics, paleontology, biology, mathematical probability, geology, and other sciences."
"There are many scientists in each field who conclude that the scientific data best support the creation model, not the evolution model."

"Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience?

(an expose of creationist Dr. Duane Gish)"

Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? An Expose of Duane Gish

"With the facts explained and the lawsuits won, scientists declared victory and returned to their labs and offices. But stubbornly, the creationist movement refused to die. Scientists had misjudged their opponents because they had assessed the creationist arguments from a scientific standpoint. Many failed to realize that it is not facts or theories that drive the creationist machine; it is strong religious beliefs, and the need to protect traditional lifestyles and values from the threat of secularism and "godless" evolution. Because of this, creationists do not use the methods of science to spread their message. They rely on charisma, religious faith, and emotional appeals which depict evolution as a destroyer of society (LaHaye 1974) and evolutionists as materialistic atheists who conspire to suppress creationism while hiding the many supposed weaknesses of evolution (Gish 1990a)."
............

"This troubling situation arises because Gish's debates are canned---he repeats more or less the same stories and arguments against evolution over and over, from place to place, from month to month, from year to year. The same arguments are even reproduced in his books and articles. Because of the nature of debates, it's inevitable that some of Gish's arguments get refuted by various scientists over time, often more than once. But Gish just goes to the next debate without ever changing any of his storyline. He succeeds at this, because in the next city, with a new audience and a new scientist to debate, who's to know that his argument got shot down, with evidence, by that other evolutionist last week?"

"Have You Been Brainwashed, Dr. Gish?

Gish has a little comic-style booklet published under his name called Have You Been Brainwashed? (1986). First printed in 1974, the booklet was advertised and sold until 1992. It pictures Gish lecturing to a university audience on the shortcomings of evolution, and is adapted from an actual lecture that he gave. In a 1988 debate in Australia, geologist Ian Plimer exposed many errors and fallacies contained in this booklet, concluding that it contained "a lie every 11 words!" (see Debates-Plimer 1988; see also Price 1990). Gish excused the booklet on the grounds that it had been written 17 years ago and was scientifically accurate at the time. Plimer informed the audience that in spite of its admitted inaccuracies, the booklet was for sale outside the lecture hall.

When challenged previously on the veracity of this booklet, at a 1982 lecture in Berkeley, Gish brazenly stated that someone else had written it (Gish 1982, Jukes 1984). However, in his book Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics (1993), Gish owns up by calling the booklet "my little pamphlet" (pp. 124). He says nothing about its inaccuracies, although he refers to his book Evolution? The Fossils Say NO! as "more authoritative" (pp. 124)."

..............."Gish Revises Physics - Nobel Prize Winner Wrong

Ilya Prigogine won the Nobel prize in 1977 for his work on the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium systems. He wrote a related article in 1972 explaining how nonequilibrium thermodynamics solves the puzzle of how life can originate and increase its state of order in spite of entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (Prigogine 1972). Simply put, the Second Law states that in a closed system, "useful" energy that can do work becomes gradually converted over time to energy that is unavailable for use---entropy, or an increase of disorder. Creationists interpret this to mean that complex living systems could not have evolved from simpler forms because overall, things run down rather than build up. However, living things are open systems and as Prigogine emphasized, are far from a state of equilibrium. They acquire energy from the sun and can locally decrease entropy and even increase their order and complexity without a violation of the Second Law."...........

"A logical inference from this statement is that Gish, a biochemist who has not spent any time in the laboratory in years, likely does not understand Prigogine's mathematics himself. Unwilling to admit this, he imputes his lack of understanding to other scientists and concludes that they are paying blind obeisance to a Nobel prize winner."

......."Gish's Amazing Story of Evolution"........

"Gish is an active anti-evolutionist who knows very well what the basic tenets of evolutionary theory are. He has a responsibility to at least present the other side fairly, but instead, he has has distorted and effectively concealed the cornerstone of the theory of evolution from his young, trusting readers."

"Conclusion

Gish seems to be guilty of systematic distortion and misrepresentation. When his errors are publicly corrected, he tends to continue their repetition. Why does Gish do this? Obviously, his actions promote the cause of creationism. Most of the people in debate audiences only hear Gish once and leave with a favorable impression of his arguments. Few people would have the patience to follow Gish around on his debate tours and catch him at his tricks. The rare occasions when he's been caught red-handed are more than compensated by the many times he's gotten away with it.

According to the book, The Creationist Movement in Modern America, the psychology of creationists is very different from that of evolutionists (Eve and Harrold 1991). The authors say that creationists tend to perceive the world through the filter of their religious beliefs, and they differ from their opponents in "their most profound understandings of reality, religion, American society, and the nature of the scientific enterprise" (pp. 67).

In light of that perspective, it is not surprising that some people who have met or debated Gish have come to the conclusion that he is not knowingly dishonest. For example, Robert Schadewald (1991), a freelance science writer who has followed the antics of Gish, states:

"I used to be convinced that Gish was a conscious liar, because so many of the things he says are demonstrably false, and he is neither stupid nor uneducated. In the last few years, I have changed my mind. I now think that Gish is so severely deluded that he can no longer distinguish what he wants to believe from reality, at least on a conscious level."

William Thwaites and Frank Awbrey (1991) state:

"We...were convinced at first that he must be a deliberate liar, but now we have concluded that he is not. ...Gish says only what supports his belief. In his mind, that cannot possibly be a lie. ... We also think that sometimes he says what he wishes were true. If he wishes he hadn't said something, then he didn't say it." [italics in original]

David Milne (1991) states:

"[Gish] says things that are false, now, but I suspect that he no longer even realizes it, or cares. ... He may have known, at one time, that there was something shaky or even devious about his claims, but he's made them so long now, that they have taken on a truth of their own for him."

A lack of integrity, whether deliberate or not, usually damages one's reputation, but instead, Gish's tactics have helped enhance the credibility of the Institute for Creation Research, and probably that of the entire creationist movement. Teachers and scientists struggling with the threat of creationism need to be fully aware of the exact methods used by one of the most popular advocates of creationism. A campaign based on errors and distortions does not require respect, or the time and effort spent in fighting it. If tactics such as Gish's become common knowledge, we can perhaps begin to close the creationist chapter and get back to the work of real science."

Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? An Expose of Duane Gish

Wow again your only argument is to attack the messenger yep that is real science according to the brainwashed.but of course you know this. Hang on help is coming to the rescue of science, that has been highjacked by the anti God movement.

 

[JScott]

Really they laugh at creationist . I guess you didn't watch the debate i posted in the other thread. Most of the laughing was directed at the three Professors debating the creationist. Do you really want to see the difference between creationist and evolutionist.

Summary of Scientific Evidence for Creation (Part I & II)

by Duane Gish, Ph.D.


This impact pamphlet was written by a scientist, and a science educator, and reviewed by an attorney, to provide a brief summary of the scientific evidence supporting creation. The text materials and references listed at the end together give a more thorough discussion of this scientific evidence.
................................leaving out the bullshit because this guy you quote is a fraud..............
"There is scientific evidence for creation from cosmology, thermodynamics, paleontology, biology, mathematical probability, geology, and other sciences."
"There are many scientists in each field who conclude that the scientific data best support the creation model, not the evolution model."

"Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience?

(an expose of creationist Dr. Duane Gish)"

Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? An Expose of Duane Gish

"With the facts explained and the lawsuits won, scientists declared victory and returned to their labs and offices. But stubbornly, the creationist movement refused to die. Scientists had misjudged their opponents because they had assessed the creationist arguments from a scientific standpoint. Many failed to realize that it is not facts or theories that drive the creationist machine; it is strong religious beliefs, and the need to protect traditional lifestyles and values from the threat of secularism and "godless" evolution. Because of this, creationists do not use the methods of science to spread their message. They rely on charisma, religious faith, and emotional appeals which depict evolution as a destroyer of society (LaHaye 1974) and evolutionists as materialistic atheists who conspire to suppress creationism while hiding the many supposed weaknesses of evolution (Gish 1990a)."
............

"This troubling situation arises because Gish's debates are canned---he repeats more or less the same stories and arguments against evolution over and over, from place to place, from month to month, from year to year. The same arguments are even reproduced in his books and articles. Because of the nature of debates, it's inevitable that some of Gish's arguments get refuted by various scientists over time, often more than once. But Gish just goes to the next debate without ever changing any of his storyline. He succeeds at this, because in the next city, with a new audience and a new scientist to debate, who's to know that his argument got shot down, with evidence, by that other evolutionist last week?"

"Have You Been Brainwashed, Dr. Gish?

Gish has a little comic-style booklet published under his name called Have You Been Brainwashed? (1986). First printed in 1974, the booklet was advertised and sold until 1992. It pictures Gish lecturing to a university audience on the shortcomings of evolution, and is adapted from an actual lecture that he gave. In a 1988 debate in Australia, geologist Ian Plimer exposed many errors and fallacies contained in this booklet, concluding that it contained "a lie every 11 words!" (see Debates-Plimer 1988; see also Price 1990). Gish excused the booklet on the grounds that it had been written 17 years ago and was scientifically accurate at the time. Plimer informed the audience that in spite of its admitted inaccuracies, the booklet was for sale outside the lecture hall.

When challenged previously on the veracity of this booklet, at a 1982 lecture in Berkeley, Gish brazenly stated that someone else had written it (Gish 1982, Jukes 1984). However, in his book Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics (1993), Gish owns up by calling the booklet "my little pamphlet" (pp. 124). He says nothing about its inaccuracies, although he refers to his book Evolution? The Fossils Say NO! as "more authoritative" (pp. 124)."

..............."Gish Revises Physics - Nobel Prize Winner Wrong

Ilya Prigogine won the Nobel prize in 1977 for his work on the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium systems. He wrote a related article in 1972 explaining how nonequilibrium thermodynamics solves the puzzle of how life can originate and increase its state of order in spite of entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (Prigogine 1972). Simply put, the Second Law states that in a closed system, "useful" energy that can do work becomes gradually converted over time to energy that is unavailable for use---entropy, or an increase of disorder. Creationists interpret this to mean that complex living systems could not have evolved from simpler forms because overall, things run down rather than build up. However, living things are open systems and as Prigogine emphasized, are far from a state of equilibrium. They acquire energy from the sun and can locally decrease entropy and even increase their order and complexity without a violation of the Second Law."...........

"A logical inference from this statement is that Gish, a biochemist who has not spent any time in the laboratory in years, likely does not understand Prigogine's mathematics himself. Unwilling to admit this, he imputes his lack of understanding to other scientists and concludes that they are paying blind obeisance to a Nobel prize winner."

......."Gish's Amazing Story of Evolution"........

"Gish is an active anti-evolutionist who knows very well what the basic tenets of evolutionary theory are. He has a responsibility to at least present the other side fairly, but instead, he has has distorted and effectively concealed the cornerstone of the theory of evolution from his young, trusting readers."

"Conclusion

Gish seems to be guilty of systematic distortion and misrepresentation. When his errors are publicly corrected, he tends to continue their repetition. Why does Gish do this? Obviously, his actions promote the cause of creationism. Most of the people in debate audiences only hear Gish once and leave with a favorable impression of his arguments. Few people would have the patience to follow Gish around on his debate tours and catch him at his tricks. The rare occasions when he's been caught red-handed are more than compensated by the many times he's gotten away with it.

According to the book, The Creationist Movement in Modern America, the psychology of creationists is very different from that of evolutionists (Eve and Harrold 1991). The authors say that creationists tend to perceive the world through the filter of their religious beliefs, and they differ from their opponents in "their most profound understandings of reality, religion, American society, and the nature of the scientific enterprise" (pp. 67).

In light of that perspective, it is not surprising that some people who have met or debated Gish have come to the conclusion that he is not knowingly dishonest. For example, Robert Schadewald (1991), a freelance science writer who has followed the antics of Gish, states:

"I used to be convinced that Gish was a conscious liar, because so many of the things he says are demonstrably false, and he is neither stupid nor uneducated. In the last few years, I have changed my mind. I now think that Gish is so severely deluded that he can no longer distinguish what he wants to believe from reality, at least on a conscious level."

William Thwaites and Frank Awbrey (1991) state:

"We...were convinced at first that he must be a deliberate liar, but now we have concluded that he is not. ...Gish says only what supports his belief. In his mind, that cannot possibly be a lie. ... We also think that sometimes he says what he wishes were true. If he wishes he hadn't said something, then he didn't say it." [italics in original]

David Milne (1991) states:

"[Gish] says things that are false, now, but I suspect that he no longer even realizes it, or cares. ... He may have known, at one time, that there was something shaky or even devious about his claims, but he's made them so long now, that they have taken on a truth of their own for him."

A lack of integrity, whether deliberate or not, usually damages one's reputation, but instead, Gish's tactics have helped enhance the credibility of the Institute for Creation Research, and probably that of the entire creationist movement. Teachers and scientists struggling with the threat of creationism need to be fully aware of the exact methods used by one of the most popular advocates of creationism. A campaign based on errors and distortions does not require respect, or the time and effort spent in fighting it. If tactics such as Gish's become common knowledge, we can perhaps begin to close the creationist chapter and get back to the work of real science."

Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? An Expose of Duane Gish

Wow again your only argument is to attack the messenger yep that is real science according to the brainwashed.but of course you know this. Hang on help is coming to the rescue of science, that has been highjacked by the anti God movement.

Na, creationist preachers get it wrong too much to be taken seriously.

 

[Woyzeck]

The bible is an ancient collection of directives and stories directly from God (I believe). It doesn't have to be proven to be true. Maybe it has to be proven to you for you to believe it, in which case, you'll never believe it.

Regardless. Proof isn't what makes it true. Proof is what PROVES the fact to those who don't believe it. I don't need proof; neither do most of the faithful.It's the unfaithful who think that a lack of stacks of evidence means it never happened. It's a fallacy. We don't have stacks of evidence of ANYTHING from ancient times. Most of what we have is a collection of piecemeal artifacts and questionable data. For me, it doesn't matter. I know the bible will never be disproved, I know some of it has been proven, and I know more will be. Eventually nobody will question it.

You're adorable. Have you thought on being on Bill Cosby's show, "Kids Say The Darndest Things?" You'd be a hoot!

Test the principles taught in the Bible and you will see that allie is correct. They are true. And they will not be found to be untrue.

What principles? Is that the same as "every single word" being true like Allie claims?

 

[sharia4USA]

The bible has been extremely corrupted. THe quran is the real truth and people realize that@!

 

[Avatar4321]

What principles? Is that the same as "every single word" being true like Allie claims?

Faith, Repentence, honesty, Charity, Temperence, godliness, etc. The principles taught in the scriptures are true. The resurrection is true, but knowledge of that comes only from the Spirit.

The scriptures are written by men. They carry man's imperfection. But the scriptures aren't meant to be perfect, they are meant to point us and to help us as a tool to bring us to Our Perfect Father and His Beloved Son Jesus Christ.

As Christ said:

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17)

'

The scriptures are designed to help us know God. They are a record of the testimony of those Prophets and Apostles who were taught the plan of Redemption and witnessed Christ's life and ministry. And they also provide a way to learn that they are true. It's as Christ said, do the Doctrine and you will know whether it's true or not.

How? The same way Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ. It will be revealed by the Holy Spirit. That's the only reason I know why the Bible is true. That's the only reason I know Jesus is the Christ.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Youwerecreated]

"Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience?

(an expose of creationist Dr. Duane Gish)"

Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? An Expose of Duane Gish

"With the facts explained and the lawsuits won, scientists declared victory and returned to their labs and offices. But stubbornly, the creationist movement refused to die. Scientists had misjudged their opponents because they had assessed the creationist arguments from a scientific standpoint. Many failed to realize that it is not facts or theories that drive the creationist machine; it is strong religious beliefs, and the need to protect traditional lifestyles and values from the threat of secularism and "godless" evolution. Because of this, creationists do not use the methods of science to spread their message. They rely on charisma, religious faith, and emotional appeals which depict evolution as a destroyer of society (LaHaye 1974) and evolutionists as materialistic atheists who conspire to suppress creationism while hiding the many supposed weaknesses of evolution (Gish 1990a)."
............

"This troubling situation arises because Gish's debates are canned---he repeats more or less the same stories and arguments against evolution over and over, from place to place, from month to month, from year to year. The same arguments are even reproduced in his books and articles. Because of the nature of debates, it's inevitable that some of Gish's arguments get refuted by various scientists over time, often more than once. But Gish just goes to the next debate without ever changing any of his storyline. He succeeds at this, because in the next city, with a new audience and a new scientist to debate, who's to know that his argument got shot down, with evidence, by that other evolutionist last week?"

"Have You Been Brainwashed, Dr. Gish?

Gish has a little comic-style booklet published under his name called Have You Been Brainwashed? (1986). First printed in 1974, the booklet was advertised and sold until 1992. It pictures Gish lecturing to a university audience on the shortcomings of evolution, and is adapted from an actual lecture that he gave. In a 1988 debate in Australia, geologist Ian Plimer exposed many errors and fallacies contained in this booklet, concluding that it contained "a lie every 11 words!" (see Debates-Plimer 1988; see also Price 1990). Gish excused the booklet on the grounds that it had been written 17 years ago and was scientifically accurate at the time. Plimer informed the audience that in spite of its admitted inaccuracies, the booklet was for sale outside the lecture hall.

When challenged previously on the veracity of this booklet, at a 1982 lecture in Berkeley, Gish brazenly stated that someone else had written it (Gish 1982, Jukes 1984). However, in his book Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics (1993), Gish owns up by calling the booklet "my little pamphlet" (pp. 124). He says nothing about its inaccuracies, although he refers to his book Evolution? The Fossils Say NO! as "more authoritative" (pp. 124)."

..............."Gish Revises Physics - Nobel Prize Winner Wrong

Ilya Prigogine won the Nobel prize in 1977 for his work on the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium systems. He wrote a related article in 1972 explaining how nonequilibrium thermodynamics solves the puzzle of how life can originate and increase its state of order in spite of entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (Prigogine 1972). Simply put, the Second Law states that in a closed system, "useful" energy that can do work becomes gradually converted over time to energy that is unavailable for use---entropy, or an increase of disorder. Creationists interpret this to mean that complex living systems could not have evolved from simpler forms because overall, things run down rather than build up. However, living things are open systems and as Prigogine emphasized, are far from a state of equilibrium. They acquire energy from the sun and can locally decrease entropy and even increase their order and complexity without a violation of the Second Law."...........

"A logical inference from this statement is that Gish, a biochemist who has not spent any time in the laboratory in years, likely does not understand Prigogine's mathematics himself. Unwilling to admit this, he imputes his lack of understanding to other scientists and concludes that they are paying blind obeisance to a Nobel prize winner."

......."Gish's Amazing Story of Evolution"........

"Gish is an active anti-evolutionist who knows very well what the basic tenets of evolutionary theory are. He has a responsibility to at least present the other side fairly, but instead, he has has distorted and effectively concealed the cornerstone of the theory of evolution from his young, trusting readers."

"Conclusion

Gish seems to be guilty of systematic distortion and misrepresentation. When his errors are publicly corrected, he tends to continue their repetition. Why does Gish do this? Obviously, his actions promote the cause of creationism. Most of the people in debate audiences only hear Gish once and leave with a favorable impression of his arguments. Few people would have the patience to follow Gish around on his debate tours and catch him at his tricks. The rare occasions when he's been caught red-handed are more than compensated by the many times he's gotten away with it.

According to the book, The Creationist Movement in Modern America, the psychology of creationists is very different from that of evolutionists (Eve and Harrold 1991). The authors say that creationists tend to perceive the world through the filter of their religious beliefs, and they differ from their opponents in "their most profound understandings of reality, religion, American society, and the nature of the scientific enterprise" (pp. 67).

In light of that perspective, it is not surprising that some people who have met or debated Gish have come to the conclusion that he is not knowingly dishonest. For example, Robert Schadewald (1991), a freelance science writer who has followed the antics of Gish, states:

"I used to be convinced that Gish was a conscious liar, because so many of the things he says are demonstrably false, and he is neither stupid nor uneducated. In the last few years, I have changed my mind. I now think that Gish is so severely deluded that he can no longer distinguish what he wants to believe from reality, at least on a conscious level."

William Thwaites and Frank Awbrey (1991) state:

"We...were convinced at first that he must be a deliberate liar, but now we have concluded that he is not. ...Gish says only what supports his belief. In his mind, that cannot possibly be a lie. ... We also think that sometimes he says what he wishes were true. If he wishes he hadn't said something, then he didn't say it." [italics in original]

David Milne (1991) states:

"[Gish] says things that are false, now, but I suspect that he no longer even realizes it, or cares. ... He may have known, at one time, that there was something shaky or even devious about his claims, but he's made them so long now, that they have taken on a truth of their own for him."

A lack of integrity, whether deliberate or not, usually damages one's reputation, but instead, Gish's tactics have helped enhance the credibility of the Institute for Creation Research, and probably that of the entire creationist movement. Teachers and scientists struggling with the threat of creationism need to be fully aware of the exact methods used by one of the most popular advocates of creationism. A campaign based on errors and distortions does not require respect, or the time and effort spent in fighting it. If tactics such as Gish's become common knowledge, we can perhaps begin to close the creationist chapter and get back to the work of real science."

Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? An Expose of Duane Gish

Wow again your only argument is to attack the messenger yep that is real science according to the brainwashed.but of course you know this. Hang on help is coming to the rescue of science, that has been highjacked by the anti God movement.

Na, creationist preachers get it wrong too much to be taken seriously.

Seriously j,they will seek a new theory or they will fall back on micro evolution, because it is the only part of evolution that can be observed and viable according to the evidence.

Have a great weekend j, i am off to cali.

 

[Youwerecreated]

The bible has been extremely corrupted. THe quran is the real truth and people realize that@!

Dream on friend.

 

[Avatar4321]

The bible has been extremely corrupted. THe quran is the real truth and people realize that@!

Define extremely corrupted? I would argue that it's no more corrupted than the Quran is. After all, we have no evidence that the Quran as currently constituted is what Mohamad revealed as it was only compiled and written down by the Rightly guided Caliphs because there were apparently false versions going around.

When you don't write things down immediately, things get lost and corrupted. It's human nature. Nothing touched by humans is immune from corruption.

That corruption comes from the Fall of man and can only be reversed through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to the degree that we use the Atonement in our lives.

 

[JScott]

Wow again your only argument is to attack the messenger yep that is real science according to the brainwashed.but of course you know this. Hang on help is coming to the rescue of science, that has been highjacked by the anti God movement.

Na, creationist preachers get it wrong too much to be taken seriously.

Seriously j,they will seek a new theory or they will fall back on micro evolution, because it is the only part of evolution that can be observed and viable according to the evidence.

Have a great weekend j, i am off to cali.

Na, evolution is a pretty sound theory that even creationism can not beat. Actually, creationism cant compete with the theory of evolution. Theres just to much evidence. In fact theres mountains and mountains of evidence. The bible may say one thing but the facts speak for themselves. People arent that stupid.

 

[Woyzeck]

What principles? Is that the same as "every single word" being true like Allie claims?

Faith, Repentence, honesty, Charity, Temperence, godliness, etc. The principles taught in the scriptures are true. The resurrection is true, but knowledge of that comes only from the Spirit.

The scriptures are written by men. They carry man's imperfection. But the scriptures aren't meant to be perfect, they are meant to point us and to help us as a tool to bring us to Our Perfect Father and His Beloved Son Jesus Christ.

As Christ said:

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17)

'

The scriptures are designed to help us know God. They are a record of the testimony of those Prophets and Apostles who were taught the plan of Redemption and witnessed Christ's life and ministry. And they also provide a way to learn that they are true. It's as Christ said, do the Doctrine and you will know whether it's true or not.

How? The same way Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ. It will be revealed by the Holy Spirit. That's the only reason I know why the Bible is true. That's the only reason I know Jesus is the Christ.

Does that answer your question?

That's lovely. But it has nothing to do with me questioning Allie's assertion that every word in the Bible will be proved true.

 

[AllieBaba]

Why do you question it, what purpose is there? That's my opinion. Live with it.

 

[Monnagonna]

Why do you question it, what purpose is there? That's my opinion. Live with it.

in other words, your opinion ain't worth shit. check.

 

[Woyzeck]

Why do you question it, what purpose is there? That's my opinion. Live with it.

Well, it tends to come under intense scrutiny as time rolls on seeing as how large portions of our culture and history were based around it, and people today still try to hold it up as something we should continue to do so. A la creationism.

 

[Monnagonna]

The bible is responsible for a troubles in the Middle East, without it Christians wouldn't need armageddon or believe that jesus is coming back.

 

[editec]

Why do the anti God crowd attack the bible ?

I don't know.

All one really need do is let that book speak for itself.

It's so full on contradictions (mostly between the OT and the NT) that it practically attacks itself.