Zone1 50 years of invalid priest ordinations in "francis (Vatican II) church"

[JustAGuy1]

ok, so I'm supposed to listen to a person whose religion came late to the game, namely in the 1800s. According to y'all, Up until the 1800s there was absolutely NO Christianity in the world and the most ancient of all, the Catholic Church is wrong about everything.

Please. I'm too intelligent for that kind of hogwash

Of course you are, just ask you.

 

[notmyfault2020]

No. I’m just not a political animal so to speak. I think it’s dumb and counterproductive.

I didn't mention politics

 

[ding]

I didn't mention politics

Novus Ordo Watch is a far right political animal.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Novus Ordo Watch is a far right political animal.

only if you define Politic extremely vaguely and loosely

usmb is political. Why are u here?

 

[ding]

only if you define Politic extremely vaguely and loosely

usmb is political. Why are u here?

I usually only post in environmental, religion and the flame zone.

I define them by the rhetoric they push which is far right rhetoric.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I usually only post in environmental, religion and the flame zone.

I define them by the rhetoric they push which is far right rhetoric.

your concept of "far right" may or may not be different from mine.. so basically, you are not saying anything

 

[ding]

your concept of "far right" may or may not be different from mine.. so basically, you are not saying anything

I’m saying what I said to you the first time we chatted. There has always been a political divide in the church between conservatism and liberalism. I believe the church has done a good job in balancing the two. And I certainly wouldn’t belong to the Church if I thought as you did that the church was no longer valid.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I’m saying what I said to you the first time we chatted. There has always been a political divide in the church between conservatism and liberalism. I believe the church has done a good job in balancing the two. And I certainly wouldn’t belong to the Church if I thought as you did that the church was no longer valid.

maybe you would if it were convenient to you somehow. For example, most priests, if you will observe, NEVER leave the Church. That's bc they are well provided for, unlike some poor members of the Church, whom they do not seem overly concerned about in my experience/observations..

They may molest children.. have an affair.. do any number of things but they do not leave the Church. It is convenient for them to remain and there apparently a re no punishments doled out for those who sin egregiously while calling themselves a priest..

Or maybe you are not a priest but you are well connected to your local parish and everyone thinks you're a great person bc you volunteer for this or that or what have you. so yeh... just because someone stays in the Church doesn't mean it is for the right reasons

 

[ding]

maybe you would if it were convenient to you somehow.

You would compromise your principles for convenience? Of course you wouldn’t. So it is more likely that your absurd accusations are politically motivated and that’s the only principle you are following.

 

[ding]

most priests, if you will observe, NEVER leave the Church. That's bc they are well provided for, unlike some poor members of the Church, whom they do not seem overly concerned about in my experience/observations..

Incorrect. They took a vow. That’s why. How could you not know that if you are a Catholic?

 

[ding]

Or maybe you are not a priest but you are well connected to your local parish and everyone thinks you're a great person bc you volunteer for this or that or what have you. so yeh... just because someone stays in the Church doesn't mean it is for the right reasons

Or they stay…

…because it is for the right reasons

 

[Cougarbear]

the church of polygamy criticizes the Oldest Church, the one founded by Christ..

kinda comical

Should we open the Catholic Church's cans of worms from hundreds of aborted babies under a Nun's convents, the killer of a Pope who became quote, torcher chambers and a whole host of finger pointing? Polygamy is actually a biblical thing with restrictions. And, if you bothered actually studying that practice that has been not practiced since 1895. Or, we can stick to the topic. The Bible explains that there will be a restitution of all things with the restoration of The Church of Jesus Christ in the meridian of time.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Should we open the Catholic Church's cans of worms from hundreds of aborted babies under a Nun's convents, the killer of a Pope who became quote, torcher chambers and a whole host of finger pointing? Polygamy is actually a biblical thing with restrictions. And, if you bothered actually studying that practice that has been not practiced since 1895. Or, we can stick to the topic. The Bible explains that there will be a restitution of all things with the restoration of The Church of Jesus Christ in the meridian of time.

you really shouldn't believe everything you hear. Seriously, it just makes you look like a total idiot.

 

[Cougarbear]

you really shouldn't believe everything you hear. Seriously, it just makes you look like a total idiot.

Good grief! None of this isn't findable on the internet. You look stupid now.

 

[ding]

Unholy Orders: 50 Years of Invalid Ordinations in the Novus Ordo Church

novusordowatch.org

I'm still reading through this but thought I'd share with my Catholic buddies here, assuming I have any..

I'll say one thing.. What I am reading so far from Novus Ordo Watch is in the category of Most Interesting stuff I've heard in years.. maybe ever.

"Each Catholic needs to be his own theologian."​

With regard to his own conscience and behavior, yes - that's exactly what the Church teaches. If this were not the case, how could Christ have commanded us to judge in all the ways that He did? How could Scripture command us to "use judgement, and hold on to whatever is good" (1 Thes 5:21)? Or Christ order us "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57), in relation to interpreting the time? How could we know whether or not we are hearing "another gospel" (Gal 1:8) if Christians were completely unable to discern right from wrong? For that matter, how could one come to the sedevacantist position that it is morally certain that the man canonically-elected pope does not hold the public office of pope if he is not able to think?

Individual Catholics cannot formulate doctrine but they can, and must, decide if a given statement or teaching is Catholic or not, even when that statement comes from a churchman. To say this is not the case is to assert, among many other absurdities and contradictions, that the faithful in the time of Arias should have followed their Arian bishops into Hell.

Let's take a look at what the theologians have to say about the duty of resisting a [legitimate] pope - we've all seen some or all of these quotes before, including from sedevacantist sources:

St. Thomas says: "To resist openly and in public goes beyond the measure of fraternal correction. St. Paul would not have done it towards St. Peter if he had not in some way been his equal... We must realize, however, that if there was question of a danger for the faith, the superiors would have to be rebuked by their inferiors, even in public."

And also: “It is written: ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’ Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God. Therefore, superiors are not to be obeyed in all things.”

And: "There being an imminent danger for the Faith, prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects. Thus, St. Paul, who was a subject of St. Peter, questioned him publicly on account of an imminent danger of scandal in a matter of Faith."

(All quotes are from the Summa.)

St. Bellarmine: "Although it clearly follows from the circumstances that the Pope can err at times and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not, it is said in the Acts of the Apostles, 'One ought to obey God rather than man': therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over."

So, Robert Bellarmine, Saint and Doctor, tells us that sometimes a pope - certainly the context speaks of a valid pope - must sometimes "out not to be obeyed". (Though this statement may seem to apply to juridical commands rather than teachings, certainly demanding assent of a non-infallible and in fact erroneous statement falls into the same category.)

Bellarmine again: "Just as it is lawful to resist the pope that attacks the body, it is also lawful to resist the one who attacks souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is lawful to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed."

Augustine: "Paul showed, nonetheless, that it is possible for subordinates to have the boldness to resist their superiors without fear, when in all charity they speak out in the defense of truth."

Suarez: “If the pope gives an order contrary to right customs, he should not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him; if he attacks by force, by force he can be repelled, with a moderation appropriate to a just defense.”

Could there be clearer support for the Recognize & Resist position than any one of these teachings from the theologians? It seems that any theologian of merit who spoke on the issue took the position that it is lawful to resist a pope who attempts to harm the Church - rather than the sedevacantist attitude which is essentially that individuals must declare that any pope who behaves thus simply isn't the pope. A Response to Novus Ordo Watch - A Catholic Thinker

 

[notmyfault2020]

Novus Ordo Watch is a far right political animal.

link?

evidence?

proof?

or are you another liberal, meaning you just drop supposed "bombs" and expect people to accept it as gospel truth

please

 

[notmyfault2020]

"Each Catholic needs to be his own theologian."​

With regard to his own conscience and behavior, yes - that's exactly what the Church teaches. If this were not the case, how could Christ have commanded us to judge in all the ways that He did? How could Scripture command us to "use judgement, and hold on to whatever is good" (1 Thes 5:21)? Or Christ order us "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57), in relation to interpreting the time?

This Scripture passage, like all Scripture, is presumed to have been taught by and through the auspices of the Church, but the Church essentially does not exist anymore. The closest thing to the real Church is the SSPX but they are objectively in schism. Even so, their Mass is the way a Mass is supposed to be celebrated and therefore that and other things SSPX are trustworthy.

In any case.. One can "judge in all things".. as Scripture says, only when that person is in full communion with Christ's Church and without mortal sin (unconfessed), as (and you cannot disagree w/ this) Christ is the ultimate authority on Scripture and its meaning.. and set up a Church to further His agenda

 

[notmyfault2020]

I usually only post in environmental, religion and the flame zone.

I define them by the rhetoric they push which is far right rhetoric.

Few people or organizations are "far" right these days..

 

[ding]

link?

evidence?

proof?

or are you another liberal, meaning you just drop supposed "bombs" and expect people to accept it as gospel truth

please

You don’t need a link to know that. It’s self evident.

I’m so conservative I don’t put up with other conservatives who make me want to feel bad about being a conservative.

As far as I’m concerned you may be so far right that much of the following may apply to you too.

Socialism intentionally denies examination because it is irrational. There is no formal defined dogma of socialism. Instead there is only a vague, rosy notion of something good, noble and just: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach. Socialism seeks equality through uniformity and communal ownership Socialism has an extraordinary ability to incite and inflame its adherents and inspire social movements. Socialists dismiss their defeats and ignore their incongruities. They desire big government and use big government to implement their morally relativistic social policies. Socialism is a religion. The religious nature of socialism explains their hostility towards traditional religions which is that of one rival religion over another. Their dogma is based on materialism, primitive instincts, atheism and the deification of man. They see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. They practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural Marxism and normalization of deviance. They worship science but are the first to reject it when it suits their purposes. They can be identified by an external locus of control. Their religious doctrine is abolition of private property, abolition of family, abolition of religion and equality via uniformity and communal ownership. They practice critical theory which is the Cultural Marxist theory to criticize what they do not believe to arrive at what they do believe without ever having to examine what they believe. They confuse critical theory for critical thinking. Critical thinking is the practice of challenging what one does believe to test its validity. Something they never do.

 

[ding]

This Scripture passage, like all Scripture, is presumed to have been taught by and through the auspices of the Church, but the Church essentially does not exist anymore. The closest thing to the real Church is the SSPX but they are objectively in schism. Even so, their Mass is the way a Mass is supposed to be celebrated and therefore that and other things SSPX are trustworthy.

In any case.. One can "judge in all things".. as Scripture says, only when that person is in full communion with Christ's Church and without mortal sin (unconfessed), as (and you cannot disagree w/ this) Christ is the ultimate authority on Scripture and its meaning.. and set up a Church to further His agenda

You totally missed the point. Pope’s can err at times. The error makes them fallible not invalid.