61% of Liberals Favor Socialism

[MIPS]

Maybe they should have given examples of socialism in order to clarify what it means...

Like,
-do you want to keep social security retirement as a program or eliminate it?
-Do you think unemployment insurance is a good measure for those losing their jobs?
-do you want to keep Medicare for the seniors or do you want to let them all try to fend for themselves when it comes to their own health?
-Do you want your government to keep up the roads and highways in your area?
-Do you want to eliminate school lunches for the poorest children among us?

Then maybe these idiots would have their answer to what socialism means to them...

guaranteed, there would be A LOT MORE republicans saying yes to 'socialism'.

From a specific issue standpoint defining whether this thing or that thing is "socialist" is highly subjective and always subject to a lot of debate. There is no purity of socialist ideology in practice today and there never really has been therefor the practical definition is going to vary widely depending on the circumstances and the point of view of the person being asked.

The fact of the matter is that any centralized government of scale has a tendency to become more authoritarian in terms of central economic planning (socialism is after all an ECONOMIC philosophy not a political one) as time goes by since those in power are after all human beings and as such gravitate toward that which secures and increases their power. Nothing works better toward the securing and consolidation of power than economic control and wealth redistribution (buying votes), this tendency was something the founding fathers anticipated and thus designed the Federal Government in the best way that they knew how to stifle it (Republican form of government, checks & balances, limited Federal Authority, etc..,).

That being said , your examples are all red herrings since each of your questions is prefaced by something that would make it appear that anybody answering in the affirmative is some sort of "scrooge" , when the fact of the matter is you do not appear to take into account that GOVERNMENT is not the only solution to the problems that the "programs" you point to attempt to solve, in fact history has shown that GOVERNMENT is more than likely the least efficient solution to them, or have you not caught on to the fact that thanks to all these half assed federal attempts at problem solving the country is now broke and on the verge of a banana republic AND the "problems" remained unresolved?

Let me remind you...the one social program that has put this country on the brink since it has passed is the Medicare Pill Bill...the Conservative/Republican....medicare pill bill passed by President Bush during his term....

What's your point that Republicans are just as delusional and hypocritical as Democrats? Thanks, now tell me something else I already know.......

the conservatives or republicans were in power for 12 years straight....WHAT did they do to eliminate these social programs that I mentioned above....

Thanks for obliging me but I was just kidding about telling me something else I already know.

I have NEVER used the term "socialist" NOR DID THE ARTICLE....it used the term socialism,

Perhaps you should read what I wrote again since I used the term "socialist" in a context that was crystal clear as being an attribute of a thing rather than a person, you understand the difference, right ? If so I don't understand what your objection is to the term being used in that fashion.

and all I did is how you guys what Democrats consider socialism, or "social" programs, and these are the things I mentioned, or at least some of them....

Who the hell is "you guys" ?

thus trying to explain why the percentage is higher on Democrats than republicans.... The repubs have used an all out propaganda war on the term "socialism" for well over a decade....while never telling their constituents the definition of the term and what programs they are against....All I was doing is suggest to the op, that maybe they need to list the things I mentioned and even add the things Meister mentioned to a list and have the people vote yeah or nay to each of them, and we would have MORE republicans and democrats agreeing with eachother and each one of the measures than one would think, than with the half assed non descriptive pole that was done to divide us instead of unite us.

Care

Did you miss the whole part where I explained how the things you listed are highly subjective? I thought I was pretty succinct with that explanation but I guess not enough, my bad.

 

[Meister]

Maybe they should have given examples of socialism in order to clarify what it means...

Like,
-do you want to keep social security retirement as a program or eliminate it?
-Do you think unemployment insurance is a good measure for those losing their jobs?
-do you want to keep Medicare for the seniors or do you want to let them all try to fend for themselves when it comes to their own health?
-Do you want your government to keep up the roads and highways in your area?
-Do you want to eliminate school lunches for the poorest children among us?

Then maybe these idiots would have their answer to what socialism means to them...

guaranteed, there would be A LOT MORE republicans saying yes to 'socialism'.

Perhaps we should also point out that the government takes over private sectors like banking and lending.
Take over of the auto industry
Take over healthcare.
Take over Insurance industry.
Regulate wages.
Take over manufacturing.
I'm sure I can come up with a lot more, but this will do for now.

I wonder if the democrats and the rebublicans would really be saying yes to socialism?

Those are FASCIST measures, not what Democrats would see as socialism imho...

The Oil/gas industry being subsidized for the last 80 years by our government could be added to your list as well....

oh, and what is the taking over of manufacturing about? the auto industry you already mentioned???

Care

Yes, Fascist measures, if they want socialism, democrats would get a quick lesson on what socialism is really about.
Do you think that a socialized government would stop with just the auto industry?

 

[Bern80]

Maybe they should have given examples of socialism in order to clarify what it means...

Like,
-do you want to keep social security retirement as a program or eliminate it?
-Do you think unemployment insurance is a good measure for those losing their jobs?
-do you want to keep Medicare for the seniors or do you want to let them all try to fend for themselves when it comes to their own health?
-Do you want your government to keep up the roads and highways in your area?
-Do you want to eliminate school lunches for the poorest children among us?

Then maybe these idiots would have their answer to what socialism means to them...

guaranteed, there would be A LOT MORE republicans saying yes to 'socialism'.

Well, as the peope who or so fond of calling out the people that use the term socialism incorrectly, are those thinks really socialism? That was the part of the article I found most interesting is that it acknowledged that it wasn't clear what people thought socialism actually was. And I have come to find in some recent debates on this board that when people debate an issue, like socialism, and don't even agree on what the term means, the debate goes no where fast.

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Those are the definitions of socialism. I think it's fairly clear that when people rail against 'socialism' they don't mean it in the truist sense of the word. And both sides do it, it seems. I wonder if PeterS really is a fan of socialism. Do you really think it's best for the government to run all of our industries?

Maybe before the last couple of years we were using the term incorrectly, but since the election of Obama and the policies he has passed and policies he has intended there is zero question that when people call him a socialist, they are spot on in correctly using the term. The government now owns a means of production in the auto industry and we know he very much wants government to have an expanded role in providing health care.

I think the various things you refer to above may better be referred to as collectivism. What we are moving toward in society is government not trying protect equal opportunity, rather they are trying create equal outcomes.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Maybe they should have given examples of socialism in order to clarify what it means...

Like,
-do you want to keep social security retirement as a program or eliminate it?
-Do you think unemployment insurance is a good measure for those losing their jobs?
-do you want to keep Medicare for the seniors or do you want to let them all try to fend for themselves when it comes to their own health?
-Do you want your government to keep up the roads and highways in your area?
-Do you want to eliminate school lunches for the poorest children among us?

Then maybe these idiots would have their answer to what socialism means to them...

guaranteed, there would be A LOT MORE republicans saying yes to 'socialism'.

From a specific issue standpoint defining whether this thing or that thing is "socialist" is highly subjective and always subject to a lot of debate. There is no purity of socialist ideology in practice today and there never really has been therefor the practical definition is going to vary widely depending on the circumstances and the point of view of the person being asked.

The fact of the matter is that any centralized government of scale has a tendency to become more authoritarian in terms of central economic planning (socialism is after all an ECONOMIC philosophy not a political one) as time goes by since those in power are after all human beings and as such gravitate toward that which secures and increases their power. Nothing works better toward the securing and consolidation of power than economic control and wealth redistribution (buying votes), this tendency was something the founding fathers anticipated and thus designed the Federal Government in the best way that they knew how to stifle it (Republican form of government, checks & balances, limited Federal Authority, etc..,).

That being said , your examples are all red herrings since each of your questions is prefaced by something that would make it appear that anybody answering in the affirmative is some sort of "scrooge" , when the fact of the matter is you do not appear to take into account that GOVERNMENT is not the only solution to the problems that the "programs" you point to attempt to solve, in fact history has shown that GOVERNMENT is more than likely the least efficient solution to them, or have you not caught on to the fact that thanks to all these half assed federal attempts at problem solving the country is now broke and on the verge of a banana republic AND the "problems" remained unresolved?

You were doing fine until your final paragraph when an accurate historical analysis devolved into your opinions, which are not supported by facts. What is the alternative to (for example) social security and medicare? What is the soluton to the enormous cost of health care in America (even scrooge was eventually enlightened, but not until he came to realize he too might suffer)?

 

[Foxfyre]

Maybe they should have given examples of socialism in order to clarify what it means...

Like,
-do you want to keep social security retirement as a program or eliminate it?

Pro-socialists - keep it, expand it, tax Americans into oblivion if necessary to pay for it.

Anti-socialists - keep it, but begin the slow process of privatizing it and shfiting it to the states now so as not to create unjustifiable hardship on those the government made dependent on it.

-Do you think unemployment insurance is a good measure for those losing their jobs?

Pro-socialists - yes and working Americans should be taxed as much as necessary to pay for it.

Anti-socialists - it should be an option for the states but it should not be a Federal program.

-do you want to keep Medicare for the seniors or do you want to let them all try to fend for themselves when it comes to their own health?

Pro-socialists - give the government power to take care of the people from cradle to grave and confiscate as much wealth and means of production as is necessary to do that. (Ignore that it has an amazing poor track record.)

Anti-socialists - as with social security, begin the process now of slowly and carefully transferring the program to the states where there will be far less expense, mismanagement, and potential for fraud. The Federal government has no business running such a program, but it must be corrected in a way as to not cause unjustifiable suffering to those the government has made dependent on the program.

-Do you want your government to keep up the roads and highways in your area?

Sure. The Federal government should fund upkeep on the interstate highway system which is part of the national security/defense. And the state and local governments should keep up the state and local roads to be used by rich and poor alike in the interest of the general welfare. That has absolutely nothing to do with socialism.

-Do you want to eliminate school lunches for the poorest children among us?

Pro-socialists think the government should take whatever it wants from whomever it wants to take it and make sure everybody is fed.

Anti-socialists want the federal government out of that altogether so that less of limited resources will be swallowed up in giant bureaucracies and more resources can be targeted to take care of the truly helpless. Anti-socialists would not mind if the federal government and everybody else put parents who refuse to give their kids breakfast on a huge guilt trip about that.

Then maybe these idiots would have their answer to what socialism means to them...
guaranteed, there would be A LOT MORE republicans saying yes to 'socialism'.

Perhaps you pro-socialists have an answer for what you will do when you run out of other peoples' money?

 

[sboyle24]

I doubt 10% of Americans could define socialism as something other than "just like communism! Commie Bastards!"

I was hoping that someone would make that point, so that I was able to include

an indictment of the US school system, erroneously referred to as an education system.

Since the Gallup Poll so clearly indicates the large positive approval of free market, etc., and yet a sizeable portion of the citizenry, at least those polled, have a positive view of socialism, someone must have dropped the ball somewhere.

I think an argument could be made, though, that many of those folks who signed on to socialism, merely view the term as Democode for the Democratic Party-

but I am not saying that most are not Wilson-Dewey-Obama-Progressive-Liberals.

They probably are: note one of the above posts, a poster who syncretically attempts to claim to be a happy socialist, yet, it seems, has not moved to the EU yet.

I'm sure that the democratic individuals polled were those with a larger political knowledge about socialism than the general population, but the poll is not specific enough. I think total socialism would be bad anywhere in any country at any time. Partial socialism could be a very livable condition.

 

[Joe Steel]

If I may conjecture that American ideas and ideals are more closely associated with self-reliance, free enterprise, and entrepeneurship, what is one to make of the latest Gallup poll?.

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

 

[Foxfyre]

If I may conjecture that American ideas and ideals are more closely associated with self-reliance, free enterprise, and entrepeneurship, what is one to make of the latest Gallup poll?.

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

If rightwing propaganda is effective given how much more prevalent and overwhelming is leftwing propaganda in the media, in politics, and in the education system, there must be something very compelling in that rightwing propaganda, wouldn't you think? I mean rightwing propaganda doesn't promise cradle to grave security, benevolence, favoritism, etc. etc. etc. Rightwing propaganda only promises personal freedom, accountability, security of our God given rights, and opportunity for all to reach for their goals.

Hmmm. Freebies vs freedom and unlimited opportunity. Tough choice huh? And yet most Americans are just wierd enough to choose the latter and take their chances.

Why do you think that is?

 

[PeterS]

I doubt 10% of Americans could define socialism as something other than "just like communism! Commie Bastards!"

I was hoping that someone would make that point, so that I was able to include

an indictment of the US school system, erroneously referred to as an education system.

Since the Gallup Poll so clearly indicates the large positive approval of free market, etc., and yet a sizeable portion of the citizenry, at least those polled, have a positive view of socialism, someone must have dropped the ball somewhere.

I think an argument could be made, though, that many of those folks who signed on to socialism, merely view the term as Democode for the Democratic Party-

but I am not saying that most are not Wilson-Dewey-Obama-Progressive-Liberals.

They probably are: note one of the above posts, a poster who syncretically attempts to claim to be a happy socialist, yet, it seems, has not moved to the EU yet.

Why? We have a mixed economy, and have for decades, that has delivered one of the highest quality of lives in the world. Your contention is we should have a negative view? I don't follow...

 

[Foxfyre]

I doubt 10% of Americans could define socialism as something other than "just like communism! Commie Bastards!"

I was hoping that someone would make that point, so that I was able to include

an indictment of the US school system, erroneously referred to as an education system.

Since the Gallup Poll so clearly indicates the large positive approval of free market, etc., and yet a sizeable portion of the citizenry, at least those polled, have a positive view of socialism, someone must have dropped the ball somewhere.

I think an argument could be made, though, that many of those folks who signed on to socialism, merely view the term as Democode for the Democratic Party-

but I am not saying that most are not Wilson-Dewey-Obama-Progressive-Liberals.

They probably are: note one of the above posts, a poster who syncretically attempts to claim to be a happy socialist, yet, it seems, has not moved to the EU yet.

Why? We have a mixed economy, and have for decades, that has delivered one of the highest quality of lives in the world. Your contention is we should have a negative view? I don't follow...

Because socialism, even on a limited or mixed bag basis, cannot be sustained. Social Security is broke. Medicare is broke. Medicaid is broke. All monies going into school lunches, etc. is adding to the deficit which cannot continue to accrue indefinitely without completely bankrupting the country. See Thomas Sowell's quotation in my sig lines. He has done exhaustive research and study in socialist systems for the entire 20th Century, and he has yet to find one that has not eventually diminished quality of life if it didn't actually give all power to the government and enslave the people. While some individuals do prosper under socialism, all true prosperity results from systems that provide human rights and freedom and opportunity to engage in capitalism in a free market system.

Socialism should not be confused with our Founders' definition of social contract and the general welfare. Good government has certain roles to play. But once it starts meddling in the production and distribution of wealth, nothing good is going to come from that.

 

[PoliticalChic]

If I may conjecture that American ideas and ideals are more closely associated with self-reliance, free enterprise, and entrepeneurship, what is one to make of the latest Gallup poll?.

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

1. The poll was conducted by Gallup, a recognized, respected organization in this area.
It is not my poll.
Read more carefully.

2. It seems that you reading of the media is highly flawed. Are you claiming that the print media, the broadcast media and every form outside of talk radio is not left wing?
Absurd.

3.Cable TV, if judged by the number of cable outlets, is also left wing. It is only the prescience of the viewing public that annoints Fox News as the most trusted and most viewed.

4. Your reference to the 'average American' as being obtuse is but another left wing attempt to appoint oneself as the interpreter of correct knowledge.

Oh, how your post echoes the words of earlier Progressives:

Progressives know how stupid the masses are, and that is why Progressive journalists editorialize instead of report the news… to tell you what you should think.

a. “President Woodrow Wilson, a leading progressive, spoke often of his "vision," introducing a term that has now become central to our understanding of presidential politics. Wilson believed, as Kesler puts it, "that to become a leader you have to have a vision of the future and communicate that vision to the unanointed, mass public. You have to make them believe in your prophetic ability."
The Roots Of Liberalism - Forbes.com

b. Modern journalism is based on Progressives’ ideas: use the media to ‘teach’ people. Alter journalism from reporting facts to editorializing in the news, as the elites always know better. Walter Lippmann, Progressive (American newspaper commentator and author who in a 60-year career made himself one of the most widely respected political columnists in the world.)Public Opinion, “When properly deployed in the public interest, the manufacture of consent is useful and necessary for a cohesive society, because, in many cases, “the common interests” of the public are not obvious, and only become clear upon careful analysis of the collected data — a critical intellectual exercise in which most people either are uninterested or incapable of doing. Therefore, most people must have the world summarized for them, by the well-informed.”
Public Opinion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Douger]

Enjoy your demise, idiots.
Go get some popcorn and Prozac. The movie is almost over.

 

[Vast LWC]

Perhaps most Liberals see that "Socialism" is not an all-or-nothing thing.

Conservatives, like Political-Chic try to paint "Socialism" with a broad brush.

They make it seem as if all Socialism occurred in a Totalitarian, USSR-Like environment.

And they always completely ignore the many examples of healthy Socialist Democracies in the world today.

Not everyone buys into their pro-corporate oligarchy propaganda though, which frustrates them to no end.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I doubt 10% of Americans could define socialism as something other than "just like communism! Commie Bastards!"

I was hoping that someone would make that point, so that I was able to include

an indictment of the US school system, erroneously referred to as an education system.

Since the Gallup Poll so clearly indicates the large positive approval of free market, etc., and yet a sizeable portion of the citizenry, at least those polled, have a positive view of socialism, someone must have dropped the ball somewhere.

I think an argument could be made, though, that many of those folks who signed on to socialism, merely view the term as Democode for the Democratic Party-

but I am not saying that most are not Wilson-Dewey-Obama-Progressive-Liberals.

They probably are: note one of the above posts, a poster who syncretically attempts to claim to be a happy socialist, yet, it seems, has not moved to the EU yet.

Why? We have a mixed economy, and have for decades, that has delivered one of the highest quality of lives in the world. Your contention is we should have a negative view? I don't follow...

Please expand on your post.

While some of it is vague, it is, at the same time, interesting.

For example, your understanding of 'mixed economy,' how much is each portion? How much should be composed of each, and remember, the proportions do not remain static.

And how is this related to "one of the highest quality of lives in the world'? Will it continue to be so, and under what kind of administration?

What do you mean by 'we should have a negative view'?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Enjoy your demise, idiots.
Go get some popcorn and Prozac. The movie is almost over.

You add so much to the conversation.

I'm sure you are equally welcomed everywhere you go.

 

[Joe Steel]

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

If rightwing propaganda is effective given how much more prevalent and overwhelming is leftwing propaganda in the media, in politics, and in the education system, there must be something very compelling in that rightwing propaganda, wouldn't you think? I mean rightwing propaganda doesn't promise cradle to grave security, benevolence, favoritism, etc. etc. etc. Rightwing propaganda only promises personal freedom, accountability, security of our God given rights, and opportunity for all to reach for their goals.

Hmmm. Freebies vs freedom and unlimited opportunity. Tough choice huh? And yet most Americans are just wierd enough to choose the latter and take their chances.

Why do you think that is?

No one ever said the propagandists weren't good at their jobs. They know how to distort and misrepresent the issues to favor the special interests who can pay for their services.

They've managed to convince guys who'll never make much more than minimum wage that taxing the rich at fair rates is a bad idea.

They managed to convice guys who'll die long before their times that universal health care is a bad idea.

They manage to convince guys who'll drift from one dead-end job to another that protecting American jobs is a bad idea.

They call it free-market capitalism, wrap it in the flag and shove it down the dupes' throats and they love it.

Go figure.

 

[Joe Steel]

If I may conjecture that American ideas and ideals are more closely associated with self-reliance, free enterprise, and entrepeneurship, what is one to make of the latest Gallup poll?.

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

1. The poll was conducted by Gallup, a recognized, respected organization in this area.
It is not my poll.
Read more carefully.

That's really desperate.

You posted it. It's "yours."

 

[PoliticalChic]

Perhaps most Liberals see that "Socialism" is not an all-or-nothing thing.

Conservatives, like Political-Chic try to paint "Socialism" with a broad brush.

They make it seem as if all Socialism occurred in a Totalitarian, USSR-Like environment.

And they always completely ignore the many examples of healthy Socialist Democracies in the world today.

Not everyone buys into their pro-corporate oligarchy propaganda though, which frustrates them to no end.

You write as though you live in an echo chamber, happily accepting the slaps on the back from like minded folks.

Make the leap to a more adult venue: specifiy examples, use data, documentation, etc.

Don't be afraid of a more spirited debate.


For example, would you include the PIGS, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain as "examples of healthy Socialist Democracies"?


And try to avoid such blather as "...pro-corporate oligarchy propaganda though, which frustrates them to no end." unless you can provide examples, as it is a waste of good electrons.

Your post could be more interesting for both sides- and for you as well.

 

[PoliticalChic]

What drivel.

Your poll does nothing more than measure the effectiveness of rightwing propaganda. The media are full of paens to capitalism and demonization of socialism. The average American know little more than that.

1. The poll was conducted by Gallup, a recognized, respected organization in this area.
It is not my poll.
Read more carefully.

That's really desperate.

You posted it. It's "yours."

Of couse, it is not 'my' poll.

It seems it is of interest to many, as you see in the thread.


But, more interesting, you were, it seems, unable to find fault with the other aspects of my post.

That you picked the least important pretty well skewers you.

 

[mascale]

In more modern economies, what Adam Smith interventions there are: Have become so commonplace as to not be regarded what they are(?)!

Adam Smith is famously for "laissez faire," except in those areas where he was not!

Welcome to the Presbyterian Perspective!

Adam Smith's Lost Legacy

"Crow, James Crow: Shaken, Not Stirred!"
(Bring Casino To Reservations: Learn how to set "random," free, slot machines in favor of house! Learn Free Market, and How it works! Hmmmm!)