A Year Since MH-17 Tragedy

[Stratford57]

I have found at least three examples of outright lie in your post. Do you think I will have a great desire to answer you after that? I won’t elaborate; I will use a tactic of Russian “patriots” and blame you for lying without providing evidence. You can claim (actually, you will claim) that it is simply a pretext not to answer your questions – I don’t care.

I wonder, why you have a problem answering my simple question: unless "indisputable evidence" is presented, it's at least 50% chance that Ukrainian army has shot the plane, right or not?????

Esay, I didn’t lie about anything. If you believe I did, please, tell me where. I know what I am talking about: I know witnesses to confirm it.

You and I live in the same country but in 2 parallel realities. Remember Lewis Carroll’s story about Alice behind the mirrors? That is a kind of reality Ukrainian Media likes to keep their residents in to make it easy to manipulate their minds. Sooner or later you will realize it too (just like all the brainwashed country of Uk-Ruin), official Kiev wants it to be later, not sooner.

And you are right: I did not expect you to answer my questions, otherwise it would shake all the brainwashed world you prefer to live in. If you are not aware about certain events, it doesn't automatically mean those events never happened. You prefer to keep your head in the sand, like an ostrich, however eventually your sand will turn pretty hot.

P.S. I will never be a pleasant person for you. I noticed: you like to wag your tail when you talk to Americans on USMB. Probably Obama’s administration seem more pleasant to you. Yes, those guys always have pleasant smiles on their faces, they probably had the same smiles when they were bombing civilians in the Middle East and will have same smiles if they decide to throw a few bombs on your city (pray those won’t be nuclear bombs).

 

[Camp]

I speak at this forum respectfully with people who really interesting exchange of views and opinions.

But people like you make me just laugh and compassion.
Because I see a blind hatred towards Russian =)
Blind hatred is always a sign or stupid ... or resentful =)
Are you who from them?

They will never be forgotten for leaving those bodies in the hot sun to rot and be eaten by wild animals and dogs while they looted the bodies and baggage of the passengers and covered up their crime of mass murder.

Can I see the source of this information?
where you're from?

I have no hatred of Russian people or even Russian nation. Thugs and violent men with vodka problems and mean spirits and tempers have taken control of SE Ukraine and turned it into a very ugly place. Putin thought he could give this power to the gangsters and tough guys and now everyone in that region has to pay and will be paying for a long time.

 

[ESay]

Do you remember what ended your bravado?

Well, I will begin with commenting your post 134.

You remind me your friend Sbiker. He also made an attempt to quote my posts some time ago, but he actually quoted only that part that was suitable for him.
Man, maybe it would be more honestly to provide also your expressions which provoked such kind words from my part?
Also, if I remember correctly I admitted that I had screwed up with the figure and I even apologised for that. You decided that it is not worth a citation? Okay.
By the way, can you give an example when Russian “patriots” apologise for their mistakes or “mistakes”?
After that you are surprised that I use some kind words in your Russian “patriots” address? Well, I don’t consider it surprising at all.

And btw, I think that you ‘jump down’ from that theme.

Actually, after this your post I don’t see any reason to continue our discussion. But I will leave a couple of comments.

You ideological hate Russian?

I will open you a secret: some time ago (more than a year ago) I was watching Russian television (news programmes) via the Internet, primarily it was Channel One. I wanted to take a look on Russia from inside. Of course there were (and I believe still are) many lies about events in Ukraine. I don’t want to say that Ukrainian channels are saint. No, of course not. But I have already mentioned about a “crucified” boy in Slavyansk. This story was a red line for me. I think it is a bottom of Russian official journalism.

You are asking about a hate to Russia. No, I don’t think it is the case; it is rather ... a feeling of disgust.



And about Ukrainian army.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove me by those videos.

I will open you one more secret – I have served in Ukrainian army and I know without any videos how miserable it was (well, and still is). The Ukrainian army has been ruined in the course of the last twenty years and if you are trying to blame the current government for that, then it is ridiculous. Some people say that some steps have been taken in the last year to improve the things. I don’t know exactly whether it is true or not, I think it is rather true. But what I know certainly is that we need years in order to improve the things dramatically. It is the case not only for the army, but also for the whole country. I don’t believe we would do that with Yanukivych and Russia (consider that as my wrong opinion).

 

[Sonc]

I have no hatred of Russian people or even Russian nation. Thugs and violent men with vodka problems and mean spirits and tempers have taken control of SE Ukraine and turned it into a very ugly place. Putin thought he could give this power to the gangsters and tough guys and now everyone in that region has to pay and will be paying for a long time.

Where are you from?
And
Can I see the source of this information?

I have no hatred of Russian people

Do you know the Doberman stories?

 

[Sonc]

No, I don’t think it is the case; it is rather ... a feeling of disgust.

I wonder why?

 

[Stratford57]

I will open you a secret: some time ago (more than a year ago) I was watching Russian television (news programmes) via the Internet, primarily it was Channel One. I wanted to take a look on Russia from inside. Of course there were (and I believe still are) many lies about events in Ukraine. I don’t want to say that Ukrainian channels are saint. No, of course not. But I have already mentioned about a “crucified” boy in Slavyansk. This story was a red line for me. I think it is a bottom of Russian official journalism.

I was watching Channel One of Russia too, when Russian news interviewed a woman, a refugee from Donbass, and she was telling that story about a crucified boy, the one you’ve mentioned. Within a month (as far as I remember) Channel One has apologized for “using the source which was not verified” in a news release. I watched that too. It was the only time their news were incorrect. And that’s why if somebody like you wants to blame Russian Media for lying, they would pull out this particular story over and over again.

If Ukrainian or Western TV channels suddenly decided to apologize for all the lies they’ve told, they would run out of airtime pretty darn quickly.

Speaking about Russian journalism, do you know at least 4 Russian journalists (Anton Voloshin, Igor Korneluk, Anatoliy Klyan, Andrey Stenin) were killed in Ukraine last year, trying to deliver the news about the war there? Those guys gave up their lives for the truth, which official Kiev and Washington are trying to hide so badly.

2 Russian journalists killed in Ukraine military shelling RT News

Russian journalist killed in Ukraine as gunmen fire on media bus World news The Guardian

 

[Sonc]

And btw, I think that you ‘jump down’ from that theme.

Honestly, this topic has indeed become less interesting. For me.
The reason is simple.
I gave an example of engineering calculations ...
This is not a rumor. This is a scientific mathematical calculation.
For the accuracy of the company's engineers are legally responsible. All information is in the public domain. Any engineer in the world can check the calculations. If it is proven that they are faking ... director and chief engineer will be judged.

You said

Unfortunately, I am not an expert in aviation, and therefore I can not draw reliable conclusions from the Almaz-Antei's press-conference.

You can not seriously discuss the details.
But continued to write rumors, gossip.
From this discussion, I "jump down"...

 

[Sonc]

I will open you a secret: some time ago (more than a year ago) I was watching Russian television

It is very strange and stupid.
I do not have a TV for 10 years. I find it difficult to comment on.

Take a book of Edward Bernays "Propaganda".

Edward Bernays (1891-1995) - a nephew of Sigmund Freud, and the discoverer of the scientific techniques of formation and management of public opinion. During the First World War, Bernays together with Walter
Lippmann was a member of the Committee for the information of the US population (CPI) - a powerful propaganda apparatus, which

He touted war on the American people as a means to "defend democracy". Propaganda Strategy
all subsequent wars were based on models developed by the CPI.

Conscious and skillful manipulation orderly habits and tastes of the masses is an important
component of a democratic society. It sets in motion this invisible social mechanism
an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our (US) country.

Putin is just learning to use propaganda. But propaganda is, in any country.

I use other sources - friends, forums, social networks. 3 languages.
Russian Ukrainian and English. My English is very bad but I can understand the meaning of the text)))


I can share sources.
Yaroslav Turchaninov fromkyiv Instagram photos and videos
Here instogramm colleagues from Kiev.
He participated in Maidan.


Here it is democratically and peacefully at the table Yanukovich (in some government building).
https://instagram.com/p/lAU08zneh5/?taken-by=фрумкив

What would you understand the level of intelligence Maidan participants in the same album, he puts photos of his girlfriend ...
Instagram

These are the people who decide the fate of the country =))))) 18 years morons.
Is it Kremlin propaganda ?? or Ukrainian Comedy Club?

 

[Sonc]

Is it kremlin propaganda or truth?
Ukrainian officials saying ... of the Crimean population (before the referendum).

It is necessary to give any promises and guarantees to make any concessions. And hanging ... hang them need later

And he called the Crimean population word that I have not found in the dictionary =))) - "мрази".
Post has 3,000 Likes

 

[Sonc]

Speaking about Russian journalism, do you know at least 4 Russian journalists (Anton Voloshin, Igor Korneluk, Anatoliy Klyan, Andrey Stenin) were killed in Ukraine last year, trying to deliver the news about the war there? Those guys gave up their lives for the truth, which official Kiev and Washington are trying to hide so badly.

Yet was killed Oles Buzin
Oleg Kalashnikov
Olga Moroz
Вячеслав Веремий
This Ukrainian journalists who disagreed with Kiev.

Below is the freedom of speech in the Ukrainian parliament

1:00+


0:30


0:50


LOL

 

[ESay]

It was the only time their news were incorrect.

Actually, after that passage any further comments are senseless.

Within a month (as far as I remember) Channel One has apologized for “using the source which was not verified” in a news release.

I could ask you to provide a link where they apologised, and I know what story you will provide, but unfortunately on this forum there are quite a few people who know Russian and thereby they will be unable to understand this “apologising”.

From this discussion, I "jump down"...

If you want to jump down from the theme, then you can open another thread where you can discuss everything you want. I think that nobody holds you here forcibly.

 

[Tehon]

Is this a good example of Ukrainian freedom of speech?

 

[ESay]

BTW, I has now read the rules of the forum (well, yes, I have to admit that I haven’t read them before). In the rules there is a paragraph:

Off-topic posts may be edited, trashed, deleted, or moved to an appropriate forum as per administrator & moderator discretion at any time within any forum and/or sub forum.

Is there any moderator reading this thread? I wonder whether it is possible to remove the posts not related to the theme to some another theme. If it is possible, then do it please. If you will decide that some of my posts (or all of them) are also not related, I absolutely don’t mind removing them.

 

[Sonc]

it's really funny)
Remove opinion, which does not like a modern trend in Ukraine.

You do not understand how these messages relate to the Boeing?

 

[Stratford57]

I could ask you to provide a link where they apologised, and I know what story you will provide, but unfortunately on this forum there are quite a few people who know Russian and thereby they will be unable to understand this “apologising”.

Esay, you didn’t bother to answer my questions, but you want me to watch all the news releases from Channel One Russia from last summer to find that particular one for you? You are not that important for me, sorry…

Yet was killed Oles Buzin
Oleg Kalashnikov
Olga Moroz
Вячеслав Веремий
This Ukrainian journalists who disagreed with Kiev.

Freedom of speech in Ukraine after the coup is like that: it’s super dangerous to express your point of view in Ukraine, unless it supports Kiev Junta. Hundreds of people with "incorrect point of view" have already disappeared, thrown into prison or simply killed. (BTW, ESay is using that right of speech "correctly", he will survive ).

Since the beginning of the conflict in Ukraine, at least 8 journalists have been killed in shelling in the east. The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission has collected information about at least 78 journalists who have been captured and held by armed groups. Some have been subjected to torture and ill-treatment. Although such incidents have become less frequent and less violent than in 2014, new cases are still reported. The initial struggle by the armed groups for control of the media outlets earlier this year resulted in seizure of editorial offices and TV towers, obstruction of lawful activity of journalists, intimidation and threats to media professionals by armed groups, some of which persist until now. At this time, eastern Ukraine remains one of the most dangerous places in the world for media professionals.

At the same time, let us not forget the case of the Oles Buzyna, a Ukrainian journalist, known for his criticism of the Government, in particular in relation to the Maidan events and the conflict in the east who was shot dead near his home on 16 April, by unknown gunmen. This is a case that casts many doubts on the true motivation of the killer and the longer the accountability process is delayed, the further these doubts are reinforced.

Statement by Ivan imonovi Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights at the Conference on Journalists Safety Media Freedom and Pluralism in Times of Conflict Vienna 15 June 2015

* * *

Ukraine remains the most dangerous destination for journalists reporting from conflict zones, UN Assis tant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic said June,15.

Simonovic noted that media workers in Ukraine are endangered not only in the zone of armed conflict between government forces and independence supporters, citing the recent murder of opposition journalist Oles Buzina.

The UN official stressed that Buzina was a critic of the current Ukrainian government adding that it is still unclear who is responsible for his murder.

Buzina, 45, was shot dead in April in Kiev by two masked gunmen. His murder was preceded by the killings of two other opposition figures, Serhiy Suhobok and Oleh Kalashnikov, also known for their criticism of current Ukrainian leadership.

During the conflict in southeastern Ukraine, which began in April 2014, dozens of journalists have been killed, injured or come under fire.

Ukraine Remains Most Dangerous Place for Reporters - UN Sputnik International

* * *

1. Oleg Kalashnikov, a former deputy of the Verkhovna Rada from the Party of Regions, was shot at the entrance of his house.

2. Alex Kolesnik, former governor of the Kharkiv region, found hanged.

3. Stanislav Miller, a former MP from the Party of Regions, a possible suicide.

4. Sergei Walter, a former mayor of Melitopol, found hanged.

5. Bordyug Alexander, deputy chief of the Interior Ministry of Melitopol, the official reason - died of hypertension.

6. Peklyushenko Alexander, a former governor of Zaporizhzhya region, died from a gunshot wound.

7. Mikhail Chechetov, the former head of the State Property Fund, chairman of the Party of Regions faction in the Verkhovna Rada, out of the window.

8. Sergey Melnichuk, a former prosecutor of Odessa, jumped out the window.

9. Nikolai Sergienko, a former deputy chief of the Ukrainian railways, allegedly shot himself.

10. Oles Buzina, a pro-Russian journalist and writer, was killed near his home.

Google Translate

Translation^: Who else they are preparing to murder?

Junta throws into the prison even the people who are handicapped (like Oleg Novikov, who lost his leg in Afghanistan) just for wearing the Georgian ribbon (a symbol of the victory over German Nazis):

 

[ESay]

it's really funny)
Remove opinion, which does not like a modern trend in Ukraine.

Actually, my humble request isn’t about deleting some posts, but about removing them to another thread. And I don’t know why you don’t support this idea. I think it would be convenient for everybody – you would have a new thread which may be called “Democracy in contemporary Ukraine” and where you and your friends could discuss this stuff without interrupting; anyone who would have an intention to discuss MH17 could do it here without off-topic. But if you oppose such a move, there is no problem about it. It is not a Russian forum, so here anyone can express their thoughts.

You do not understand how these messages relate to the Boeing?

Actually, you admitted that you had jumped down from the theme. And now you are asking me about that.

Okay, let me see... You have posted here about the so-called coup and its consequences. So, there was the so-called coup a year and a half ago, after that using the pretext of protection of Crimea’s Russian-speaking population there was the annexation of Crimea, after that there was (and still is) a Russian protection of the residents of Donbass thanks to which 7000 people have been killed (according to the UN) including all the passengers and the crew of MH17 ...

Yes, it has something to do with the Boeing.

 

[Camp]

Russian supported separatist or Russian troops shot down a civilian airliner over Ukraine with a Russian missile and murdered 298 people a little over a year ago. The UN voted to have a tribunal review and further investigate the incident to further the cause of bringing the murderers to justice. The Russian's vetoed the successfully passed resolution so that the murderers and witnesses can not be made to testify in an open court or tribunal setting and the evidence can not be judged and contested in an open and judicial setting. The defenders of the guilty will do everything and anything they can to deflect and divert attention away from the truth behind those 298 murders and to protect the murderers. Their purpose is to let it get old and boring so it will fade away into history. The only justice that will be served is the sanctions and shunning the world heaps upon the guilty and their protectors. Those they hide among and behind will be as usual, collateral damage.

 

[Sonc]

It is not a Russian forum, so here anyone can express their thoughts.

Let me remind you. It is not I weep - Moderator, Moderator delete posts!

to which 7000 people have been killed

They were killed by the government of Ukraine.


Now I'll explain ...

 

[Sonc]

Imagine that in New York City killed a policeman. detained two suspects.
1 - white guy. Father veteran. Mother - a social worker. The guy is a good student.
2 - a black guy. The mother - a prostitute. Father - in prison.

There is no evidence. Only biography.
Which of them killed a policeman?


It really looks like the situation with Boeing.
When I asked - why is Mr. Putin?
Someone (maybe you) said - well, they could be mistaken. And the separatists could be poorly trained.

OK. If ... IF ... repeat it all the evidence ... then minimum need to talk honestly biography.

I quoted the Ukrainian military that the Ukrainian army is in a state of "a piece of shit."


1) If you assume that the reason was the poor training of the separatists ... Ukrainian military have the same poor preparation.

2) If you assume that the Russian drink ... it was a video with drunken Ukrainian military.

3) If you assume that the separatists were wrong ... here's a video where Ukrainian tanker kills 2 Ukrainian military.
18+


4) There is a lot of information that proves that some military units ( Right Sector) do not comply with orders to Kiev.

5) There are proven facts, when the Ukrainian division (armed) kidnapped and tortured people. Commits an offense. For example battalion tornado.

After these facts, we still have a black and a white guy? Or the situation has changed?

 

[ESay]

Let me remind you. It is not I weep - Moderator, Moderator delete posts!

Thanks for the reminding, but I think that ‘remove smth to ...’ isn’t equal to ‘delete smth’. Maybe someone from the native speakers will explain whether it is the case or not.

After these facts, we still have a black and a white guy? Or the situation has changed?

Will there be any continuation of the story? I think that now we have two black guys.