And this is why affirmative action can be bad.

[CitizenPained]

Here's one link

At Williams College and Amherst College, two of the most selective liberal arts colleges in the nation, more than 50 percent of all black applicants have been accepted over the past decade. The acceptance rate at these top-ranking colleges for applicants of all races stands at about 20 percent.

Harvard Recruits Blacks

SAT score differentials (page 5)

Asian applicants are the biggest winners if race is no longer considered in
admissions. Nearly four out of every five places in the admitted class not
taken by African-American and Hispanic students would be filled by Asians.
We noted earlier that Asian candidates are at a disadvantage in admission
compared to their white, African-American, and Hispanic counterparts.
Removing this disadvantage at the same time preferences for African Americans
and Hispanics are eliminated results in a significant gain in the acceptance
rate for Asian students—from 17.6 percent to 23.4 percent. Asians,
who comprised 29.5 percent of total applicants in 1997, would make up
31.5 percent of accepted students in the simulation, compared with an
actual proportion of 23.7 percent. Other aspects of admitted students, including
the distribution of SAT scores and, especially, the proportions of
students who are athletes or legacies, are hardly affected by affirmative action.

I don't think that if we ended affirmative action today that everything would just 'go back to the way it was'. Universities have a stake in being diverse.

 

[CitizenPained]

And this is why affirmative action can be bad.

But was it bad before YOU felt the sting of it? Or did everyone else just have a bad attitude?

I already said I was inclined to agree that AA policies hurt the people they're supposed to help. It furthers racial divides and creates unnecessary bad sentiment, eg, "You're here cause a white guy felt sorry for you" or some shit.

I don't think AA is bad because is 'designed to harm whites' or some such drivel. I do think, however, that middle class blacks are favored disproportionally over lower classes (of all races). I believe in class-based affirmative action...but again, if the black and Hispanic communities want to rise up and say, "Forget this shit," I'd support it. Doubt that will happen, though.

 

[yidnar]

entertainers,civil lawyers,and a few other libb soaked professions make much more than the average hard working tax paying American,but when you factor in business owners,middle class 9 to 5 non union workers conservatives as a whole pay the majority [70% of the tax revenues in this country] when you factor in illegal aliens,welfare,medicaid,and government housing recipient's { Liberal core voting base ] ect... conservative's pay the vast majority of the taxes for libb programs.

 

[Sunshine]

Actually Affirmative Action comes from a landmark SCOTUS case, Bakke v. Regents of the University of California.

In this case, the SCOTUS held that the purpose was to 'redress of past racial injustice.' In this case race was allowed to be a factor. But not the ONLY factor.

 

[catzmeow]

entertainers,civil lawyers,and a few other libb soaked professions make much more than the average hard working tax paying American,but when you factor in business owners,middle class 9 to 5 non union workers conservatives as a whole pay the majority [70% of the tax revenues in this country] when you factor in illegal aliens,welfare,medicaid,and government housing recipient's ect... conservative's pay the vast majority of the taxes for libb programs.

I'd really like to see you prove this one.

 

[CitizenPained]

Actually Affirmative Action comes from a landmark SCOTUS case, Bakke v. Regents of the University of California.

In this case, the SCOTUS held that the purpose was to 'redress of past racial injustice.' In this case race was allowed to be a factor. But not the ONLY factor.

No...that's not where AA comes from, though it was hashed out re: university admins there.

 

[yidnar]

48% of tax revenues to finance your communist programs comes from individual income taxes ie...small business 36% payroll taxes most of who are not overpaid,over weight union slobs. Brooking institute .

 

[Sunshine]

Actually Affirmative Action comes from a landmark SCOTUS case, Bakke v. Regents of the University of California.

In this case, the SCOTUS held that the purpose was to 'redress of past racial injustice.' In this case race was allowed to be a factor. But not the ONLY factor.

No...that's not where AA comes from, though it was hashed out re: university admins there.

What grade do you teach?

 

[CitizenPained]

What do you want me to link to? The decision?

Executive orders?

Sec. 202. Except in contracts exempted in accordance with Section 204 of this Order, all Government contracting agencies shall include in every Government contract hereafter entered into the following provisions:
"During the performance of this contract, the contractor agrees as follows:
"(1) The contractor will not discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. The contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin. Such action shall include, but not be limited to the following: employment, upgrading, demotion, or transfer; recruitment or recruitment advertising; layoff or termination; rates of pay or other forms of compensation; and selection for training, including apprenticeship. The contractor agrees to post in conspicuous places, available to employees and applicants for employment, notices to be provided by the contracting officer setting forth the provisions of this nondiscrimination clause.
"(2) The contractor will, in all solicitations or advertisements for employees placed by or on behalf of the contractor, state that all qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex or national origin.
"(3) The contractor will send to each labor union or representative of workers with which he has a collective bargaining agreement or other contract or understanding, a notice, to be provided by the agency contracting officer, advising the labor union or workers' representative of the contractor's commitments under Section 202 of Executive Order No. 11246 of September 24, 1965, and shall post copies of the notice in conspicuous places available to employees and applicants for employment.
"(4) The contractor will comply with all provisions of Executive Order No. 11246 of Sept. 24, 1965, and of the rules, regulations, and relevant orders of the Secretary of Labor.
"(5) The contractor will furnish all information and reports required by Executive Order No. 11246 of September 24, 1965, and by the rules, regulations, and orders of the Secretary of Labor, or pursuant thereto, and will permit access to his books, records, and accounts by the contracting agency and the Secretary of Labor for purposes of investigation to ascertain compliance with such rules, regulations, and orders.
"(6) In the event of the contractor's noncompliance with the nondiscrimination clauses of this contract or with any of such rules, regulations, or orders, this contract may be cancelled, terminated or suspended in whole or in part and the contractor may be declared ineligible for further Government contracts in accordance with procedures authorized in Executive Order No. 11246 of Sept. 24, 1965, and such other sanctions may be imposed and remedies invoked as provided in Executive Order No. 11246 of September 24, 1965, or by rule, regulation, or order of the Secretary of Labor, or as otherwise provided by law.
"(7) The contractor will include the provisions of paragraphs (1) through (7) in every subcontract or purchase order unless exempted by rules, regulations, or orders of the Secretary of Labor issued pursuant to Section 204 of Executive Order No. 11246 of September 24, 1965, so that such provisions will be binding upon each subcontractor or vendor. The contractor will take such action with respect to any subcontract or purchase order as may be directed by the Secretary of Labor as a means of enforcing such provisions including sanctions for noncompliance: Provided, however, that in the event the contractor becomes involved in, or is threatened with, litigation with a subcontractor or vendor as a result of such direction, the contractor may request the United States to enter into such litigation to protect the interests of the United States."

 

[catzmeow]

48% of tax revenues to finance your communist programs comes from individual income taxes ie...small business 36% payroll taxes most of who are not overpaid,over weight union slobs. Brooking institute .

Your assumptions on this subject =/= facts. You cannot assume that business owners are uniformly conservative. Well, you can, but that would be dumb.

 

[Tank]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWS_MDJSiEE]‪Affirmative Action explained‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

[rdean]

Here's one link

At Williams College and Amherst College, two of the most selective liberal arts colleges in the nation, more than 50 percent of all black applicants have been accepted over the past decade. The acceptance rate at these top-ranking colleges for applicants of all races stands at about 20 percent.

Harvard Recruits Blacks

SAT score differentials (page 5)

Asian applicants are the biggest winners if race is no longer considered in
admissions. Nearly four out of every five places in the admitted class not
taken by African-American and Hispanic students would be filled by Asians.
We noted earlier that Asian candidates are at a disadvantage in admission
compared to their white, African-American, and Hispanic counterparts.
Removing this disadvantage at the same time preferences for African Americans
and Hispanics are eliminated results in a significant gain in the acceptance
rate for Asian students—from 17.6 percent to 23.4 percent. Asians,
who comprised 29.5 percent of total applicants in 1997, would make up
31.5 percent of accepted students in the simulation, compared with an
actual proportion of 23.7 percent. Other aspects of admitted students, including
the distribution of SAT scores and, especially, the proportions of
students who are athletes or legacies, are hardly affected by affirmative action.

I don't think that if we ended affirmative action today that everything would just 'go back to the way it was'. Universities have a stake in being diverse.

Back to what? Jim Crow? Slavery? Pre civil rights?

The proportion of blacks and Hispanics isn't even the proportion of the US population.

Don't make the mistake that "money" should mean "special rights". Look at how stupid George and John are.

In fact, if you look at the bios of the list of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences or economics, time and again you find they were the children of hard working middle class parents. Parents who taught them hard work. Or supported them while they pursued "higher education".

We should be doing that with American children. Identifying the most bright and helping those that are willing to work.

Unfortunately, the right has this bizarre idea that helping any other American is the dreaded "Socialism". If you support American students, it's "Socialism". If you help Americans get jobs, it's "Socialism". If you want health care for Americans, it's "Socialism". I'm sick of hearing the right complain that anything to help America is "Socialism". More and more of the right is on Medicare and getting Social Security. More of that dreaded "Socialism". Would they rather live in a tent and eat cat food?

 

[CitizenPained]

I meant 'the way it was' re: Jim Crow, or before 1964.

 

[Patrick2]

Because when you beat out 700 people to get to the final interview for a job and it's given to a person of color, you can't help but to wonder if that person really was the better choice.



I busted my ass in a community for a year, going well above and beyond anything 99.99 per cent of teachers do, and I was pretty sure this job was mine. After all, I had experience in the ESL program at the high school and this was the feeder middle school. I taught their older brothers and sisters.

I got the call yesterday that it was given to someone 'from the community'. This person 'had ties to the community'. I worked in the community and put my ass on the line for various gang members, trying to see they got an education, volunteered with the Spanish speaking population, etc. etc. but I'm not from the community and I missed out?

ADLJA D:OI* !)(!) !!

The lady who called me sounded rather pained, too, and said that I did 'really well, honey' and told me to keep looking. She said I had the most impressive portfolio, too.

Since the community in question is 95 per cent non-white, I couldn't help but to wonder what that meant, exactly. From everything I saw at the major Open House (150 of us made it that far out of the 700 applicants), there were only a handful of non-whites (makes sense, considering our demographics and education system here) and I was the only person I knew besides two others (who didn't get callbacks) that had specifically worked in a neighborhood school. (The district is huge.)

I'm not saying the guy wasn't qualified. I'm saying that when a liberal weenie like myself has a thought like that cross through her head, that's just reinforces the theory that affirmative action hurts those who deserve those jobs because people distrust their qualifications. (If you've ever seen the acceptance rate for black people at Harvard v. non black or caps on Asian enrollment, you'll see what I mean.)

Allan Bloom made this point in Closing of the American Mind and I was always inclined to agree that it may be a drawback to affirmative action in the 90s (well, that's when I read it) but now I really see what he meant.



Jeez. I feel guilty for my reaction and insanely curious as to WHO THIS FUCKER WAS THAT GOT HIRED OVER ME? !

I have been accused of some negative things, but never for being a bad teacher. I am thorough. And GOOD. Damned good. I have a pile of 'love letters' from the toughest students. Plus I know my material 'cause I'm a history/polisci geek.

So I'm unemployed, don't have health insurance, and will have to pull my son up out of his happy world and move a couple thousand miles away to California so I can live in my dad's apartment above the garage because people don't want to hire teachers anymore.

There were 7 jobs total posted in the district for social studies. Thousands of applicants. The jobs are gone.

I'm not a teacher who decided to go this route because I had nothing else to do. I really do believe in public service and this is the best way I knew how to serve.



Also, can I have my $40k in post-graduate loans I had to borrow back?

I'm going to go slit my wrists in a warm bath while blowdrying my hair now if you don't mind.

I'm not a fan of Affirmative Action, but I understand why it's needed.

It's racist discrimination and certainly not needed.

There are two reasons. One is to identify and develop sorely needed talent.

Oh, more qualified whites have the door slammed in their faces, and you call that a search for talent? Like calling shiit ice cream.

The other is to balance out grievances. For every Bush and McCain, who only got into Harvard and the Naval Academy based on daddy's connections, there should be someone who doesn't have those connections.

Bush graduated with a C minus average which is what professors give when they don't want to flunk someone.

McCain graduated 5th from the BOTTOM out of 899 Cadets. That's like being the most stupid in every single class.

So because you think because someone got a more than fair deal way in the past, young white men who weren't even born then should get screwed to "balance" things - further, the blacks who are getting the free ride probably never were discriminated against a day in their lives. Your assertion is supremely irrational.

 

[DiAnna]

When Affirmative Action was implemented, shortly after the Civil Rights Act, it was truly needed. There was no minority (or female) representation in any power positions in the United States. Corporations, congress, municipalities, all were run by white males. The only way to integrate minorities and women was to make it a court-ordered degree. The end result of AA was supposed to be equality for all, where performance, not color, was the primary basis of promotion.

Reality hit when I worked for a municipality in SoCal during the 1980's. The city was forced to have a certain percentage of employees that matched the percentage of residents within a certain radius. For example, if the city had 25% hispanic and 10% Asian residents, then we had to have 25% hispanic city employees and 10% Asian employees... whether the were qualified or not. The horror of trying to get people of the correct race to even apply for available jobs was beyond description. It was a freaking nightmare.

Since that time, the courts have backed off this "quota" system, at least for employers. Over all, I think AA worked as it was intended. Over the past 40 years, we have seen individuals of all races and both genders represented in positions of power from board rooms to congressional seats, both state and local, all over the nation. I guess one would have had to actually be around before the Civil Rights Act to recognize the enormity of change over these decades.

Where it has not changed is in the university system, where wealthy black and latino students are given admission/scholarship advantages over poor white and Asian students. This is patently unfair. University's should base their admission policies based upon economic need, not race. Since there are more blacks and latinos in the poverty level than there are whites and Asians, they will still be the beneficiaries of most admission/scholarship advantages... except that whites and Asians in the poverty level will have an equal opportunity as well.

 

[Salt Jones]

I think affirmative action works just fine. It should last as long as slavery and Jim Crow, not a day more.

 

[Patrick2]

When Affirmative Action was implemented, shortly after the Civil Rights Act, it was truly needed. There was no minority (or female) representation in any power positions in the United States. Corporations, congress, municipalities, all were run by white males. The only way to integrate minorities and women was to make it a court-ordered degree. The end result of AA was supposed to be equality for all, where performance, not color, was the primary basis of promotion.

"Affirmative action" was never needed, only equal opportunity to succeed or fail on your own merits. "Affirmative action" blew that away, and replaced it with succeed based on your (non-white) skin color. It posits a concept of "group rights" favored by the leftwing. It is unconstitutional, a straight-forward violation of the 14tjh amendment equal protection clause. It rewards people who probably have never been discriminated against, and severely punishes people who are NOT RESPONSIBLE for anything bad that happened to blacks in the past. It makes people doubtful about the credentials of blacks who have been given a free ride. It causes resentment between the races. I can't think of a worse policy, on multiple levels, in recent decades.

 

[Patrick2]

I think affirmative action works just fine. It should last as long as slavery and Jim Crow, not a day more.

I'm guessing you're black, and of course you think it's just fine because it gives you a free ride through life.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Without knowing the qualifications of the person in question, there’s no way to make the statement ‘affirmative action’ is ‘bad.’

Anyone who infers ‘reverse discrimination’ from this without knowing the facts is merely exhibiting his ignorance.

Are you a complete idiot?

This woman believes in affirmative action, and supports it, yet she still wondered if affirmative action cost her that position. that, whether you want to admit it or not, makes it bad. She would not have wondered that if we didn't have a policy like that, would she?

 

[Salt Jones]

I think affirmative action works just fine. It should last as long as slavery and Jim Crow, not a day more.

I'm guessing you're black, and of course you think it's just fine because it gives you a free ride through life.

Yeah it does. My 20 years in the military, highly valuable skill set and superior intellect would only hold me back.

Thank you Affirmative Action, without your free ride I'd be lost.

P.S. You guessed right, I am black.