Anyone remember those Bush campaign promises?

[rtwngAvngr]

Nakedemperor, Kathianne eloquently explained the difference between george Bush's changes in opinion or approach vs. Kerry's flip flopping. Bush will explain the change. Kerry will insist that both positions are valid but only comprehensible to intellectually superior libs. SOmething along those lines. Kerry tries to be all things at once, and only an imbecile would believe his goobledy goo.

 

[Avatar4321]

since you REFUSE to debate any points from the site, i will assume you AGREE that bush has come up short or flat out contradicted himself. thank you for agreeing, even though you are apparently not strong enough to admit it.
(ashamed?) i'm guessing.

gee, i guess world opinion doesn't matter. we can do that whole iraq thing alone. let's hope you don't know anybody 18-26.

World opinion doesnt matter. Why would it? Their opinion doesnt fix the problems of the world and as long as the problems are being taken care of what does it matter what they think? Are you a person who wouldnt do whats right just because not alot of people support you? You do whats right because its right not because everyone agrees with you. Liberating Iraq was right.

I am seriously doubting John Kerry's abilities to do anything with the international community. France and Germany have already said they arent going to help regardless. he has insulted the Allies we do have by calling them the Coalition of the coerced and bribed. (Yet Ironicly his plan to get France and Germany involved was to bribe them with oil). He has his sister underlying our Australian ally in Iraq and then He has the audacity to call Prime Minister Allawi a puppet. This is the man that is somehow going to get international support by not being arrogant? How?!

 

[jimnyc]

here we go with the insults!

that didn't take long. i'm lucky i don't do the same thing you are doing, or i risk being banned from the board.

Again with this? Why do you disrespect me and this board in this way? Have I ever warned/banned you for replying to a user in the manner they reply to you? You've been on this board longer than almost every conservative here, but yet somehow feel mistreated or as if you have to act differently than others.

 

[Avatar4321]

since we already talked about the economy, and EVERYONE AGREES BUSH HAS FALLEN SHORT ON HIS PROJECTIONS, let's move on to something else.

I dont agree. I think Bush has done an amazing job on the economy. He inherits a recession that is compounded by 911 and the exposure of major coporation scandals over the previous 10 years and due to tax cuts we now have a fast growing economy with unemployment at 5.4 which is lower than when Clinton was reelected. So which projections did he fall short on?

how about education? since people don't seem to believe biotech jobs will go the same way IT jobs did to southeast asia... because bush has religion getting in the way of research... A LITTLE REMINDER TO ALL WHO OPPOSE STEM CELL RESEARCH:

YOU CAN GET STEM CELLS FROM THE PLACENTA! YOU DON'T HAVE TO ABORT ANY CHILDREN TO DO SO! WHAT IS WRONG WITH KEEPING YOUR CHILD'S STEM CELLS IF THEY EVER NEED AN ORGAN IN THE FUTURE?

Considering President Bush is the first President to fund Stem cell research how are you arguing it? You arent suggesting that we harvest humans in a labratory to kill them are you? There are ways to study stem cells without harvesting humans you know/

enough of my rant. how about bush's NCLB (no child left behind)?

Believe in local control of schools, not
control out of Washington

Schools should be given enough resources and authority

[Bush]: "...I believe in local control of schools..."

[Bush]: "...I believe education is a national
priority, but it's also a local responsibility. I want
to give schools -- I want to give schools the
resources and authority to chart their own path
to excellence. My opponent thinks Washington
knows best..."

the site argues that:

Through the Orwellian No Child Left Behind (NCLB)
Act, Bush imposed Federal control over schools.
Additionally by underfunding NCLB he has
NOT given schools the resources
"to chart their own path to excellence".

As a result multiple states are either
challenging or opting out of NCLB.

I cant imagine why the schools wouldnt be receiving funding. The Federal government has given the states so much money for education that the Department of Education is telling them to spend it or lose it.

You're arguments dont seem to have any anchor in reality. You might want to think about them alittle more before you go ranting.

 

[nakedemperor]

Nakedemperor, Kathianne eloquently explained the difference between george Bush's changes in opinion or approach vs. Kerry's flip flopping. Bush will explain the change. Kerry will insist that both positions are valid but only comprehensible to intellectually superior libs. SOmething along those lines. Kerry tries to be all things at once, and only an imbecile would believe his goobledy goo.

I can't find the post where she explained this-- linky?

See this is what I'm talking about. Its a position I can't understand to be able to label every single one of Bush's broken promises or reversals of opinion as 'changes in opinion of approach'. Can every single one of the reversals outlined in Spillmind's initital approach be characterized in this way? I think its a vast generalization to use this blanket explanation.

To me, it just screams partisan politics to say that whenever Kerry changes his opinion its a 'flip flop' and whenever George Bush changes his position its 'a change of opinion'. Its a semantic whitewash which makes you seem incapable of viewing democrats and republicans through the same critical eye.

 

[Avatar4321]

not sure if percy is an insult. but if not, you made it through a post without trying to belittle me! good job!

going from the largest SURPLUS to the largest DEFICIT EVER*is* a failure in my book. we can agree to disagree on that, and i respect that.

and i'm not awarding myself for anything. i don't post here because i want to feel better than others. i post because i really wonder who still supports bush and WHY?

Largest surplus? You realize that was a projected surplus over a 10 year period dont you? You realize that it never really existed to begin with dont you? on paper they expected to take in so much money over a 10 year period. only problem the Clinton economy tanked. The surplus never existed. And even if it had, Surpluses are supposed to go away! Surpluses are either spent or given back to the people. If the government took all that money without doing either of those two things the economy would lag into recession which would make the surplus disappear anyway.

To say Bush failed by losing the surplus when it never existed to begin with is not only stupid but a complete lie. Considering the opposition the President has had, the corporate corruption exposed, 911, the necessity to rebuild the military and inteligence communities the fact that the deficit is so small. and the economy is booming is a freakin miracle.

 

[Avatar4321]

The site you linked to has numerous points which prove that Bush, like Kerry, is a flip-flopper. Then again, they're both politicians, and I challenge everyone to find one politician who has never once flip-flopped on anything. You have to appease lobbyists, you have to fall in line with your party, and sometimes you just change your mind.

you guys seem to be missing something. You try to compare Bush to Kerry as a flip flopper. but there are huge differences. I agree politicians are supposed to change their mind. but not every flippin week. Kerry had two positions on Iraq last week. Keeping up with his shift in position is nearly impossible to do. There is no reason for Kerry's flipping other than the audience he is speaking to.

Meanwhile President Bush has had major events take place that influenced his policies. You guys whine about Bush apparently flipping on the nation building but tend to ignore the fact that 911 happened. Do you think that might have had some influence on his views?

I expect politicians might change their points of view after major events or when circumstances change. I dont expect politicians to flip flop back and forth every week or so.

 

[nakedemperor]

No offense NE, but the entire democratic party screams partisan politics! I won't sit here and say that Bush has not flipped on an issue as I don't know what one you are referring to, but Kerry has to be the biggest flip dlop in politics, Oh heck in the free world!!

None taken-- both parties are equally culpable of partisan stubborness. I was more refering to those of us outside the realm of politics. I agree that Kerry flip flops a lot, but according to Spillmind's post, it would seem that W. flip flops a lot too. My point was that some on this board seem incapable of accepting that fact, and call it something else, e.g. changing his mind. Ergo, "changing one's mind" = OK and "flip-flopping" = not OK.

 

[007]

yeah, i never find it easy admitting when i'm wrong. but i am not above it.

more insults, again. you guys are making those middle school kids look good!

It's just that I don't see ANYONE being able to get through that pile of mush you call your brain. It's been too intensely indoctrinated into the liberal cult.

So I won't even try, since I already know what you liberals are. With hero's like mickey moore, the filthy mouthed whoopi goldberg, the race baiters like farakan and sharpton, the screaming morons like howey dean and ted kennedy, and the mouthy, arrogant likes of people like al frankan and billie mahr. Those are just a few of the people I know you put high on a pedestal, and believe EVERYTHING THEY SAY WITHOUT QUESTION.

So just go ahead and have a nice day. You're hopeless in my book.

 

[nakedemperor]

Fair enough argument! I am still unaware of the issues that he flipped on, and maybe it has been proven that he didn't, I don't know. What I am suggesting is that this is probably the worst, most bitter election battle that I can ever recall, and in my opinion a lot more, and I mean a lot falls on the side of the democrats!

I'd weigh in on that assertion but it'd be pure speculation. Respectful abstention

 

[Freedom Lover]

Yes, I do remember the Bush campaign promises, primarily because most of them have been enacted into law!

Also, I had to almost laugh out loud when reading your post about the President "comissioning death". Lest we forget it was Sen. Kerry who led anti-war efforts after spending 4 months in Vietnam and as pointed out by a former North Vietnamese general those efforts helped them to keep the war going resulting in more U.S. deaths. It was Kerry who met secretly with the North Vietnamese in Paris for more reason than to exchange pleasantries. Therefore, I contend there names on a granite wall in Washington, D.C. because of his actions. He has blood on his hands that will never be washed away!

Bear with me here as I muse a bit about Kerry saying he is fit to be Commander-in-Chief becase he spent 4 months in Vietnam. A conversation with him about this could go along these lines. Kerry says he is qualified to be Commander-in-Chief because of his Vietnam service. I ask, "Four months in Vietnam qualifies you for that?" He responds, "Well, maybe not. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

 

[nakedemperor]

Yes, I do remember the Bush campaign promises, primarily because most of them have been enacted into law!

Also, I had to almost laugh out loud when reading your post about the President "comissioning death". Lest we forget it was Sen. Kerry who led anti-war efforts after spending 4 months in Vietnam and as pointed out by a former North Vietnamese general those efforts helped them to keep the war going resulting in more U.S. deaths. It was Kerry who met secretly with the North Vietnamese in Paris for more reason than to exchange pleasantries. Therefore, I contend there names on a granite wall in Washington, D.C. because of his actions. He has blood on his hands that will never be washed away!

Bear with me here as I muse a bit about Kerry saying he is fit to be Commander-in-Chief becase he spent 4 months in Vietnam. A conversation with him about this could go along these lines. Kerry says he is qualified to be Commander-in-Chief because of his Vietnam service. I ask, "Four months in Vietnam qualifies you for that?" He responds, "Well, maybe not. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

Hehehehe! Pure gold with that Holiday Inn Express line..

In reference to John Kerry's antiwar activism.. history stands on his side that Vietnam was a mistake and a quagmire that he was trying to help get us out of. The notion that the war was extended because of John Kerry's activism is, however, a very dubious assertion. I would posit that because of activists like John Kerry we got out of that war at an accelerated rate-- SAVING many more lives that you say he cost.

 

[Annie]

Hehehehe! Pure gold with that Holiday Inn Express line..

In reference to John Kerry's antiwar activism.. history stands on his side that Vietnam was a mistake and a quagmire that he was trying to help get us out of. The notion that the war was extended because of John Kerry's activism is, however, a very dubious assertion. I would posit that because of activists like John Kerry we got out of that war at an accelerated rate-- SAVING many more lives that you say he cost.

Hmm NE, how much CAN YOU remember about Vietnam? I was a small kid. I would make a very educated guess that you weren't even a thought in your grammar school parents minds. Kerry has had a lot to do with your perception of the time, that doesn't close the book on history though, perhaps not even a footnote, other than for opposition.

 

[Freedom Lover]

It was in a book written by the North Vietnamese general where he said they were ready to give up and end the war. If not for kerry and organizations like his the war according to the general would have been over long before it actually was. Therefore I stand by my statement that Kerry's activities resulted in names being on the granite wall that need not be there. You can make all the excuses for him that want, but they do not remove one name from the wall.

 

[spillmind]

Again with this? Why do you disrespect me and this board in this way? Have I ever warned/banned you for replying to a user in the manner they reply to you? You've been on this board longer than almost every conservative here, but yet somehow feel mistreated or as if you have to act differently than others.

no disrespect intended. honestly, i'm not totally sure of what the rules are... but i've seen what-his-face jones banned for similar name calling, and swearing in his rants. for the record- you've treated me with utmost respect and fairness throughout. sometimes i do worry about crossing that line, however.

 

[spillmind]

It's just that I don't see ANYONE being able to get through that pile of mush you call your brain. It's been too intensely indoctrinated into the liberal cult.

So I won't even try, since I already know what you liberals are. With hero's like mickey moore, the filthy mouthed whoopi goldberg, the race baiters like farakan and sharpton, the screaming morons like howey dean and ted kennedy, and the mouthy, arrogant likes of people like al frankan and billie mahr. Those are just a few of the people I know you put high on a pedestal, and believe EVERYTHING THEY SAY WITHOUT QUESTION.

So just go ahead and have a nice day. You're hopeless in my book.

assume away! you're always right in your book!

the only thing i see as hopeless is your utter dismissal of all the point without any factual backup. i guess i am supposed to revere your word as the law of the land. well, excuse me if i don't pander to your desires. at least insein had the decency in the past to pick apart moore's bibliography. *THAT* is what debating is all about, and you haven't done anything but try to belittle those who disagree with you.

 

[Annie]

Spilly, see post #49 of this thread before proceeding!

dam! You poseur. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 

[spillmind]

'awesome! at least you have the decency to not even bother posting insults, and at least give a shot at a topic.

since we already talked about the economy, and EVERYONE AGREES BUSH HAS FALLEN SHORT ON HIS PROJECTIONS, let's move on to something else.'

FU spilly, I don't agree with your premise.

'how about education? since people don't seem to believe biotech jobs will go the same way IT jobs did to southeast asia... because bush has religion getting in the way of research... A LITTLE REMINDER TO ALL WHO OPPOSE STEM CELL RESEARCH:

YOU CAN GET STEM CELLS FROM THE PLACENTA! YOU DON'T HAVE TO ABORT ANY CHILDREN TO DO SO! WHAT IS WRONG WITH KEEPING YOUR CHILD'S STEM CELLS IF THEY EVER NEED AN ORGAN IN THE FUTURE? '

I'll let this go.

While I believe the 'standards' of NCLB are laudable, the implementation includes special ed kids incorporated into the totals. This is unfair on several levels, not educationally sound method of measurement; especially for low number enrollment schools; Not a realistic 'snapshot' of whether or not a school is moving up or down academically; penalizes schools that keep student at 'home' school, as opposed to 'special' school.

As a result multiple states are either
challenging or opting out of NCLB.

[/QUOTE]

ok, you don't agree with my premise, but you didn't say much about it, so what am i to assume?

and what's to 'let go'? it's a totally relevant issue, and i always thought that the constitution GAURANTEED us all freedom of religion?! do you disagree with the constitution, or do you think pushing your religion on people because you think it's the right way to go, limiting research is the better option?

if you are waiting for god to cure all of our diseases and shun the possibilities of stem cell research, you are going to be waiting a long time.


and thank you for the decent rebuttal, and i respect that you think it isn't a fair snapshot of the education dilemma in our country.

you guys are going to flame me for the source on this, but it is nicely collected with ACCURATE REFERENCES TO GOVERNMENT SITES AND OFFICIALS THAT ARE NOT PARTISAN:

http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/nclb/

 

[spillmind]

Damn it Spilly! When are you going to learn that you must say hello before you can post!


I see that sun has been baking your head again, surs up eh?

WHAT'S UP BRO?! maybe it is... once again, sir evil! ALWAYS KEEPING IT REAL!

so what's new?

 

[spillmind]

World opinion doesnt matter. Why would it? Their opinion doesnt fix the problems of the world and as long as the problems are being taken care of what does it matter what they think? Are you a person who wouldnt do whats right just because not alot of people support you? You do whats right because its right not because everyone agrees with you. Liberating Iraq was right.

I am seriously doubting John Kerry's abilities to do anything with the international community. France and Germany have already said they arent going to help regardless. he has insulted the Allies we do have by calling them the Coalition of the coerced and bribed. (Yet Ironicly his plan to get France and Germany involved was to bribe them with oil). He has his sister underlying our Australian ally in Iraq and then He has the audacity to call Prime Minister Allawi a puppet. This is the man that is somehow going to get international support by not being arrogant? How?!

it matter what they think because the US is not an island. this should be overwhelmingly apparent in the fact that we cannot garner any more support in iraq. 'liberating iraq' was not in fact a liberation, in my opinion. it was a move to attempt to re-write the political road map in the ME, and also to acquire larger amounts of oil, not to mention that iraq went to trading all their oil in euros in 2000. bush and cheney both have a large stake in oil and defence contracts, it was a business venture.

if helping people was the tantamount reason for invading, as i have said time and time again, i would be convinced if we bypassed the UN and went into Darfur. and people are being massacred there (unlike iraq's situation prior to liberation)! your logic lacks consistency.

yes, allawi *is* a puppet. he used to be a henchman for saddam, and after that a tool for the CIA. who do you think you are kidding?

kerry signifies CHANGE, which is what we are going to have to get across to the international community if we are to move forward. we keep creating more enemies faster than we can kill them

I dont agree. I think Bush has done an amazing job on the economy. He inherits a recession that is compounded by 911 and the exposure of major coporation scandals over the previous 10 years and due to tax cuts we now have a fast growing economy with unemployment at 5.4 which is lower than when Clinton was reelected. So which projections did he fall short on?

please explain to me why i couldn't get the job i currently hold because there are LITERALLY hundreds of applicants for the same position? you don't account for all those who dropped out of the hunt for a job. this number ONLY reflects those receiving unemployment. bush is still the ionly president since hoover to have less jobs in the workforce than hoover did. i'm simply not buying the spin. never did, never will.

Considering President Bush is the first President to fund Stem cell research how are you arguing it? You arent suggesting that we harvest humans in a labratory to kill them are you? There are ways to study stem cells without harvesting humans you know/

oh really? can you prove that? i guess i'm living in an alternate reality where i see him against it. ron reagan must have been talking totally out of his ass. and no, i don't suggest harvesting humans.

I cant imagine why the schools wouldnt be receiving funding. The Federal government has given the states so much money for education that the Department of Education is telling them to spend it or lose it.

that's all fine and good of you to say that, but can you prove it?